=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:54:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tenney Nathanson <tenney@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject: PAW & other parts of the sun & moon family of corporations?
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700
>From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
>Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner
>
>Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine:
>Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be
>one of the major works in that special issue devoted to
>the "theatrical" in lit.
>
>Douglas Messerli
Douglas--
what's the current array of s&m magazines, and what's the logic of the
one-press-multi-mag tack? There's PAW, and RIBOT, and?
all best (long time no see!)
Tenney
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:20:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: veal scallopini
I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public
dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any
pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue.
mark
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| |
| mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun |
| to go to extremes" |
| GWU: |
| http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw |
| EPC: |
| http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace |
|____________________________________________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:39:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: veal scallopini
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9608311030.A7005-0100000@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>
I'm sorry, Mark, ziti or no ziti, you're pasta point of no return.
Gwyn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:07:15 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CRIS.COM>
Subject: Re: veal scallopini
Mark Wallace wrote:
>
> I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public
> dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any
> pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue.
The ever-litigious Mr. Wallace should think twice before indulging
these proclivities. If he really wanted to maintain his double life,
why did he allow himself to be lured out onto that hotel balcony?
The harder they come, the harder they fall (as Stephanopoulos is so
fond of saying).
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:19:51 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julia Stein <jstein@LAEDU.LALC.K12.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Labor Day
In honor of Labor Day, this poem by Fred Voss from his book Goodstone, a book
of work poems about his job as a machinist in a Southern California
aircraft factory.
Asleep
We machine the teeth of gears
and the cutting edge of drills.
We bore out cyclinders,
turn pistons and rods,
thread screws and nuts and bolts.
We machine the dies
that stamp out pipes and seals and valves.
We are the engine, the driveshaft,
and the pump;
the wing and the wheel--
and yet we believe that we are powerless
as we sit in bars
and watch the president on television.
Fred Voss
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:06:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: veal scallopini
>I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public
>dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any
>pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue.
>
>mark
I noticed the panic with which you make this avowal, Mark. I remember on my
only trip to Washington D.C., I distinctly saw you with two other people of
undiscernible sex near the Lincoln Memorial, and two of you at least were
wearing Thai cuisine, the third in veal scallopini.
George Bowering. "snowdrops grow
near the warm chimney"
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4 --Nelson Ball
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:03:25 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: CSPAN-2 to Air "Freedom to Write" Program
Thanks for mentioning this Gale. It was especially interesting. I was
altogether enraptured by the phrase "The poet is the only one who never
forgets."
cf
>C-SPAN-2 will air an edited version of the Freedom to Write Conference, held
>at Brown this past spring. The air date is Saturday, 31 August at 8:00 p.m.,
>via their "About Books" program.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 04:00:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Time / Script / Unix
-
Hell: Cannot Create Time:
Script started on Sun Sep 1 23:21:07 1996
warning: could not update utmp entry
netcom% telnet panix3.panix.com
Trying...
Connected to panix3.panix.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
No directory /net/u/6/s/sondheim!
touch: cannot touch //.motd_time: no write permission
$ touch motd_time
touch: cannot create motd_time: Permission denied
$ touch time
touch: cannot create time: Permission denied
$ touch exit
touch: cannot create exit: Permission denied
script done on Sun Sep 1 23:21:50 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:31:37 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: David Tudor Obituary]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4BAC54735E77
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi folks -- thot this may ineterest you -- Pierre
John Whiting wrote:
>
> The [London] Guardian August 28 1996
>
> OBITUARY
>
> David Tudor
>
> Black Mountain sounds
>
> DAVID Tudor, who has died aged 70, abandoned a career as a
> virtuoso performer of contemporary piano music to devote himself
> to the composition and performance of electronic music.
>
> Tudor was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he began his
> career as an organist. After studying composition and piano, he
> began to concentrate on the piano and soon became known as an
> interpreter of some of the most demanding works in the
> contemporary repertory.
>
> In New York in 1950, he gave the American premiere - and the
> second performance anywhere - of Pierre Boulez's Second Piano
> Sonata. He also gave the first performances of works by
> Karlheinz Stockhausen, who dedicated a piece to him, and many
> others. But his closest association was with John Cage, who said
> that all his works until 1970 were written either directly for
> Tudor or with him in mind. He gave the first performances of
> Cage's Music of Changes (1952) and the Concert for Piano and
> Orchestra, the latter at a retrospective concert of Cage's music
> at New York Town Hall in 1958, when the work was "conducted" by
> Merce Cunningham.
>
> When the Merce Cunningham Dance Company was formed at Black
> Mountain College in North Carolina, in the summer of 1953, with
> John Cage as musical director, Tudor joined him as company
> musician. He continued to perform and tour with the company
> until the end of 1994, when ill-health caused him to retire.
> After the death of Cage in August 1992, Tudor had succeeded him
> as the company's musical director, and he continued as musical
> advisor.
>
> In the early days, Tudor loved to play 19th century salon music,
> and he made a selection of such pieces for Cunningham's Dime a
> Dance in 1953. Another Cunningham dance of that year was Banjo,
> to music by Louis Moreau Gottschalk. Cunningham's dancers could
> not understand why the choreographer had chosen the piece when
> they heard it played by another pianist, so Cunningham asked
> Tudor to play it for one rehearsal. "It sounded like 50 banjos
> all played at once," Cunningham has said, and when they heard,
> the dancers understood. Tudor also played music of this kind for
> dances by the eccentric and beautiful Katherine Litz.
>
> At Black Mountain in 1952, where Tudor was an instructor, he took
> part in Cage's famous untitled, unstructured theatre piece,
> together with Cunningham, the poets Mary Caroline Richards and
> Charles Olson, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. A number of
> friends from Black Mountain later formed the Gate Hill Co-op in
> Stony Point, New York, known as "The Land," where Cage, Tudor,
> Richards, and other artists lived for many years.
>
> In the early 1960s, Cage and Tudor initiated the trend towards
> "live" (as opposed to taped) electronic music in the Cunningham
> company's musical repertory, and Tudor ended his active career as
> a pianist. In 1968 he composed his first score, for Cunningham's
> Rain Forest. This was followed by Sounddance (1975), Exchange
> (1978), Channels/Inserts (1981), Quartet (1982), Phrases (1984),
> Shards (1987), Five Stone Wind (with Cage and Takehisa Kosugi)
> (1988), Polarity (1990), and Enter (1992). In the autumn of
> 1992, he returned to the acoustic piano in concert performances
> of Cage's Winter Music with Atlas Eclipticalis and, in 1993, Solo
> for Piano. In 1994, Cunningham was able to realise his final
> collaborations with Cage, Ocean, to which Tudor contributed the
> electric component, Soundings: Ocean Diary. The orchestral
> element, played by 112 musicians, is by Andrew Culver, following
> Cage's original concept. The work was performed earlier this
> summer, at the Lincoln Center Festival in New York.
>
> Many of the electronic devices used in Tudor's compositions were
> designed and made by himself. Tudor was one of four core artists
> who collaborated on the design of the Pepsi Pavilion for Expo
> '70, Osaka, Japan, a project of Experiments in Art and
> Technology. With the visual artist Jacqueline Monnier, he
> developed a kite environment that was installed at the Whitney
> Museum in New York in 1986, in Dusseldorf in 1988, and at the
> Jack Tilton Gallery. in New York in 1990. Other collaborators
> included the filmmaker Molly Davies, the choreographer Viola
> Farber, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg.
>
> He was a great cook, particularly of the cuisine of India, where
> he had spent much time. "John Cage said David had a golden ear,"
> Merce Cunningham said recently, and added, "that he did, but he
> also had a marvellous sense of humour." In general, Tudor's
> contribution to the life and work of the Cunningham company was
> more than just musical; as much as Cunningham and Cage
> themselves, he personified its philosophy.
>
> One day at Black Mountain when Cunningham was rehearsing an
> extremely complex solo, one of the first he had choreographed
> with chance process, he sat down in despair. Tudor then
> remarked: "Well, this is clearly impossible - but we'll go right
> ahead and do it anyway."
>
> David Vaughan
>
> David Tudor, composer, born January 20, 1926; died August 13,
> 1996
--------------4BAC54735E77
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Date: 28 Aug 96 04:44:54 EDT
From: John Whiting <100707.731@CompuServe.COM>
To: Charles Amirkhanian <AMIRK@WELL.COM>,
"Robert J. Bertholf" <bertholf@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>,
Dale Carter <engdc@hum.aau.dk>, RONALD GUY DAVIS <rgdavis@sfsu.edu>,
Richard Elen at Apogee E <relen@apogeedigital.com>,
Richard Ehlich <100621.2143@CompuServe.COM>,
Dave Foister <101531.3703@CompuServe.COM>,
Richard Friedman <rchrd@emf.net>,
Gehlhaar-Matossian <nour-rolf@easynet.co.uk>,
Maria Gilardin <TUCRADIO@IGC.APC.ORG>,
Don Guttenplan <d.guttenplan@ucl.ac.uk>,
Michael Hrebeniak <m.hrebeniak@ram.ac.uk>,
Pierre Joris <joris@cnsunix.albany.edu>,
David Josephson <david@josephson.com>,
Matthew Lasar <lasarm@ccnet.com>,
Hugh Macdonald <106041.1512@CompuServe.COM>,
Dave Malham <dgm2@york.ac.uk>, "Richard K. Moore" <rkmoore@iol.ie>,
jack nessel <basho@gramercy.ios.com>,
Gallery October <100516.1427@CompuServe.COM>,
"\"John Ohliger\"" <johliger@facstaff.wisc.edu>,
"Dr. William Paterson" <billp@kaiwan.com>,
Charles Shere <104477.3243@CompuServe.COM>,
William Sommerwerck <williams@nwlink.com>,
Maxwell Steer <ms@tisbury.demon.co.uk>,
Colin Still <opticnerve@easynet.co.uk>,
Carl Stone <cstone@sukothai.com>, John Sunier <Sunear@aol.com>,
Larry or Lynn Tunsta <beedleum@netcom.com>,
"\"Harvey Wheeler\"" <Verulan@msn.com>,
John Whiting <100707.731@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: David Tudor Obituary
Message-ID: <960828084454_100707.731_EHU39-1@CompuServe.COM>
X-Status:
The [London] Guardian August 28 1996
OBITUARY
David Tudor
Black Mountain sounds
DAVID Tudor, who has died aged 70, abandoned a career as a
virtuoso performer of contemporary piano music to devote himself
to the composition and performance of electronic music.
Tudor was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he began his
career as an organist. After studying composition and piano, he
began to concentrate on the piano and soon became known as an
interpreter of some of the most demanding works in the
contemporary repertory.
In New York in 1950, he gave the American premiere - and the
second performance anywhere - of Pierre Boulez's Second Piano
Sonata. He also gave the first performances of works by
Karlheinz Stockhausen, who dedicated a piece to him, and many
others. But his closest association was with John Cage, who said
that all his works until 1970 were written either directly for
Tudor or with him in mind. He gave the first performances of
Cage's Music of Changes (1952) and the Concert for Piano and
Orchestra, the latter at a retrospective concert of Cage's music
at New York Town Hall in 1958, when the work was "conducted" by
Merce Cunningham.
When the Merce Cunningham Dance Company was formed at Black
Mountain College in North Carolina, in the summer of 1953, with
John Cage as musical director, Tudor joined him as company
musician. He continued to perform and tour with the company
until the end of 1994, when ill-health caused him to retire.
After the death of Cage in August 1992, Tudor had succeeded him
as the company's musical director, and he continued as musical
advisor.
In the early days, Tudor loved to play 19th century salon music,
and he made a selection of such pieces for Cunningham's Dime a
Dance in 1953. Another Cunningham dance of that year was Banjo,
to music by Louis Moreau Gottschalk. Cunningham's dancers could
not understand why the choreographer had chosen the piece when
they heard it played by another pianist, so Cunningham asked
Tudor to play it for one rehearsal. "It sounded like 50 banjos
all played at once," Cunningham has said, and when they heard,
the dancers understood. Tudor also played music of this kind for
dances by the eccentric and beautiful Katherine Litz.
At Black Mountain in 1952, where Tudor was an instructor, he took
part in Cage's famous untitled, unstructured theatre piece,
together with Cunningham, the poets Mary Caroline Richards and
Charles Olson, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. A number of
friends from Black Mountain later formed the Gate Hill Co-op in
Stony Point, New York, known as "The Land," where Cage, Tudor,
Richards, and other artists lived for many years.
In the early 1960s, Cage and Tudor initiated the trend towards
"live" (as opposed to taped) electronic music in the Cunningham
company's musical repertory, and Tudor ended his active career as
a pianist. In 1968 he composed his first score, for Cunningham's
Rain Forest. This was followed by Sounddance (1975), Exchange
(1978), Channels/Inserts (1981), Quartet (1982), Phrases (1984),
Shards (1987), Five Stone Wind (with Cage and Takehisa Kosugi)
(1988), Polarity (1990), and Enter (1992). In the autumn of
1992, he returned to the acoustic piano in concert performances
of Cage's Winter Music with Atlas Eclipticalis and, in 1993, Solo
for Piano. In 1994, Cunningham was able to realise his final
collaborations with Cage, Ocean, to which Tudor contributed the
electric component, Soundings: Ocean Diary. The orchestral
element, played by 112 musicians, is by Andrew Culver, following
Cage's original concept. The work was performed earlier this
summer, at the Lincoln Center Festival in New York.
Many of the electronic devices used in Tudor's compositions were
designed and made by himself. Tudor was one of four core artists
who collaborated on the design of the Pepsi Pavilion for Expo
'70, Osaka, Japan, a project of Experiments in Art and
Technology. With the visual artist Jacqueline Monnier, he
developed a kite environment that was installed at the Whitney
Museum in New York in 1986, in Dusseldorf in 1988, and at the
Jack Tilton Gallery. in New York in 1990. Other collaborators
included the filmmaker Molly Davies, the choreographer Viola
Farber, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg.
He was a great cook, particularly of the cuisine of India, where
he had spent much time. "John Cage said David had a golden ear,"
Merce Cunningham said recently, and added, "that he did, but he
also had a marvellous sense of humour." In general, Tudor's
contribution to the life and work of the Cunningham company was
more than just musical; as much as Cunningham and Cage
themselves, he personified its philosophy.
One day at Black Mountain when Cunningham was rehearsing an
extremely complex solo, one of the first he had choreographed
with chance process, he sat down in despair. Tudor then
remarked: "Well, this is clearly impossible - but we'll go right
ahead and do it anyway."
David Vaughan
David Tudor, composer, born January 20, 1926; died August 13,
1996
--------------4BAC54735E77--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:19:46 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: homophonic translation/translitics...
i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
this:
I am the milkshake without color
And without hands, come the butcher,
Come Moses the rocker!
An I am wild as a pauper,
For the abbreviation of my Sahara,
The jailer has the eyes of Southern france.
My desire has gone, fled the desperation
Over the black's salty tears...
--Andrew Klimek
from _Flowers of Mel_
Dick Higgins credits Robert Kelly for the term, and mentioned
Steve McCaffery as having done such? & Dave Melnick has some
based on Homer (Men in Aida)... specific refs wd be much
appreciated.
i have in hand 2 recent: _The Real Ideal_ by Joel Lipman, &
_Prime Sway_ by John M. Bennett; i wanted to be able to put
them better into context.
shoe crayon
luigi-bob drake
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:33:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
Comments: To: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
>this:
Several that come quickly to mind are:
Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The
opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic
translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by,
collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou,
George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic
translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane
Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating
Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a
kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including
homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I
remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being
identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones.
I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never
knew about.
Bests
Herb
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:18:55 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: PAW & other parts of the sun & moon family of corporations?
Ribot is its own magazine, not published by Sun & Moon
Press all--just distributed by us. It's published by
Paul Vangelisti in Los Angeles.
The new "magazine" is actually a semi-annual anthology
of specific topics.
In fact S&M doesn't publish any magazines.
Douglas
At 09:54 PM 8/31/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700
>>From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
>>Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner
>>
>>Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine:
>>Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be
>>one of the major works in that special issue devoted to
>>the "theatrical" in lit.
>>
>>Douglas Messerli
>
>Douglas--
>
>what's the current array of s&m magazines, and what's the logic of the
>one-press-multi-mag tack? There's PAW, and RIBOT, and?
>
>all best (long time no see!)
>
>Tenney
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET
and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely
sound-rhymed poem from Donne.
Douglas Messerli
At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
>>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
>>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
>>this:
>
>Several that come quickly to mind are:
>
>Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The
>opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic
>translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by,
>collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou,
>George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic
>translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane
>Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating
>Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a
>kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including
>homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I
>remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being
>identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones.
>
>I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never
>knew about.
>
>Bests
>
>Herb
>
>
>Herb Levy
>herb@eskimo.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:32:51 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: trains late in a pollen air (fwd)
re homophonic translation;
might be thought of also in terms of American humor writing,
vaudeville and movies--
with varying degrees of literacy and a huge popuation of ESL
speakers and writers--a lot of American humor has used the english
language as the language to be translated--
an early example is Artemus Ward--there's a story about a boy
constructor for example, a giant menacing snake who can swallow near
anything--
and in the Marx Brothers, the "Why a Duck"--
small children practise homophonic translation on a regular basis--
witness what goes on during "wreck creation" time--one child's
homophonic explanation for destruction of a kindergarten class room--
trains late in a pollen air
--dbchirot
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:30:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Bernstein <bernstei@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996
Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996
Poet and film maker Frank Kuenstler died on August 11. A short obituary
appeared in The New York Times, August 31. There will be a memorial service
for Frank on Wednesday, September 4, at 670 West End Avenue (call
212-362-1691 for more information).
In the next month I hope to have a full bibliography of Kuenstler=92s work=
on
the EPC. His books are:
LENS (New York: Fim Cultures, 1964)
Selected Poems (New York: Eventorium Press, 1964)
Paradise News (New York: Eventorium Press, 1966)
Fugitives. Rounds (1966)
13=BD Poems (New York: SZ/Press, 1984)
Continued (New York: Night Three Press. 1987)
Miscellany (New York: Night Three Press. 1987)
In Which (New York: Cairn Editions, 1994)
Here=92s what I wrote for 13=BD Poems:
The publication of 13=BD Poems marks the twentieth anniversary of Film
Culture=92s edition of Frank Kuenster=92s first book Lens. Lens=92s=
brilliantly
iconoclastic and cosmic compression of syntax and lexicon ranks Kuenstler
with such pioneers of Zaum (Khlebnikov=92s word for pervasively neologistic
poetry) as Gillespie, Melnick, and Inman. In 13 =BD Poems, we get another=
side
of Kuenstler =96 less intractably opaque, more lightheartedly amusing. Each=
of
the poems in the new collection suggests a different style: Kuenstler has
provided a group show all on his own. More remarkably, in the long, final
poem, "Text", Kuenstler achieves a maniacally nonstop synthesis of "blunt"
cut-up and everyday "pandemonium" =97"Foolish spirit foolish theory zeal
almost macabre A craze =85 alert aggressive, military Maudlin, extreme."
LENS remains, for me, Kuenstler=92s great work. It is composed, basically,=
of
two-word pairs joined by a period (though a period follows every word pair
as well); though sometimes phrases stand in for single words. It is flush
right, with hyphens noting split words. It runs 92 pages and is dated at the
end: 1952-1964. Here is the opening of LENS (minus the italic "f."s and
accents on metie=92r and cre=92me & not justified):
mm.Pris. metier.AAA. prime.Airies. numbers.Racquet. comma.Dei. rr.1919.
peru.Ruse. glen.A. ggg.Ire. leapfrog.Mick. creme.Nail. game.Ble. flame-
Bouyant. f.Rose. not.Ice. door.I. nigh.Eve. feather.Rail. mm.Error. mm.-
Pris. Oscar.Later. f.Oil. I=92m.Moon. bb.Abe count.Tokay. newman.Asiatics.
mezzo.Potomac. sinned.Drone. signed.Hormone. rr.Asp. clues.Ott. oft.Shoes.
Deaf.Acid. ggg.Own. rape.Cyclical. Faith.Per Se. soul.Elicit. F.Unction.=
tie-
Grass. sign.Am carp.Pathagorean gas.Tone mm.Acquire f.Rail salon.-
Leica. Canine.Father tv.Jeeps it must be spring-A. picture of a flower
just flashed upon the screen. rr.Lourdes. rr.Lao-tse. rr-Enter. Rr.Entire.
Frank lived in my neighborhood not only metaphorically but literally: I
occasionally ran into him in the xerox store and on the streets. For a
number of years he send out xeroxed pages of found art, with just an almost
anonymous ARCHIVE stamped where a return address would usually be. Bruce
Andrews did a cut-up of LENS for L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE #13 (1981);=
he called it:
"And For Anything I Could Call My Own Thinking".
***
finally a haiku from Paradise News:
Fish swim. They die. They rise to the
surface.
It is their way of falling.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:27:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Swear word here!
>George Bowering added ("That was YOU?"):
>
>> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the
>> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures--
>> >
>> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed
>>
>> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was
>> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little
>> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough.
>
>I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can
>clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but
>he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite
>all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get
>paid for the shoot?
>
>
>Rachel Loden
I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David
Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon
as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared
against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some
women's clothing in Washington.
George Bowering.
"I sit inside the blond before you"
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:33:29 +0800
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From: Schuchat <schuchat@ARC.ARC.ORG.TW>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
Comments: To: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199609021319.JAA19896@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Numerous works by Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett, especially those
collected in BEAN SPASMS.
Ron Padgett's SOME BOMBS (homophonic translations of Reverdy) (in Great
Balls of Fire) always seemed to me particularly successful.
Berrigan talks about the difference between these works and the Zukofsky
CATULLUS in one of the interviews collected in TALKING IN TRANQUILITY.
(Doug Messerli, when are you going to reprint Bean Spasms in your
S&M Classics series?)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:44:00 -0700
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From: Don Cheney <Don_Cheney@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
is PCOET a homophonic translation? or were you thinking
of melnick's MEN IN AIDA?
doncheney
dcheney@ucsd.edu
You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET
and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely
sound-rhymed poem from Donne.
Douglas Messerli
At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
>>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
>>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
>>this:
>
>Several that come quickly to mind are:
>
>Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The
>opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic
>translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by,
>collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou,
>George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic
>translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane
>Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating
>Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a
>kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including
>homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I
>remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being
>identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones.
>
>I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never
>knew about.
>
>Bests
>
>Herb
>
>
>Herb Levy
>herb@eskimo.com
>
>-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging)
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>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700
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>From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
>Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
>To: Mul
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:54:17 -0400
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation / a very clean thread
Mitch Highfill did some sound translations of Petrarch, published in the
Poetry Project's short-lived (does that rhyme with 'chived' or with
'gived'?) magazine 'Cuz'.
Bruce Andrews's recent work, 'Lip Service', that's a sound translation of
Dante, right? Of the Paradiso?
Lived is short,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:53:43 -0700
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From: Peter Quartermain <Quarterm@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
In addition to those mentioned by Herb Levy, there's the comic stuff, most
famously
1. Mots d'heures: Gousses, Rames: The d'Antin Manuscript
New York: Grossman, 1967
2. Guillaume Chequespierre and the Oise Salon: an Anthology Selected and
Edited by John Hulme.
New York: Harper & Row, 1986.
sample poem from #2 (french accentuation and lengthy footnotes omitted):
"En ca, ne doux dite coup belle la Cannes
Aas tete, lippe l'azur d'homem, di cri
Ou air; alfa de sias crete riverain.
Truc a verne ce, mais jure lesse tout main.
Don tous a sonne l'esse, si . . . "
--S. Colleriche (Kubla Khan)
"Baille de chose ouef guichet gourmet
Baille de chaine y ne bigue si ou or terre.
Ce tout de ce oui Guam oeuf no commises.
Dort terre ouef demon, nos commises."
-- H. Longeuvelo (Hiawatha)
---
I remember some years ago reading that Harry Mathews was compiling a
vocabulary of words that existed in both French and English, out of which he
was projecting a novel. But I no longer have the source for this snippet of
information. Does anyone out there know anything about the Mathews project?
Did he ever write any of it?
---
Peter
At 09:19 AM 9/2/96 -0400, Robert Drakewrote:
>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
>this:
>
> I am the milkshake without color
> And without hands, come the butcher,
> Come Moses the rocker!
> An I am wild as a pauper,
>
> For the abbreviation of my Sahara,
> The jailer has the eyes of Southern france.
> My desire has gone, fled the desperation
> Over the black's salty tears...
>
> --Andrew Klimek
> from _Flowers of Mel_
>
>
>Dick Higgins credits Robert Kelly for the term, and mentioned
>Steve McCaffery as having done such? & Dave Melnick has some
>based on Homer (Men in Aida)... specific refs wd be much
>appreciated.
>
>i have in hand 2 recent: _The Real Ideal_ by Joel Lipman, &
>_Prime Sway_ by John M. Bennett; i wanted to be able to put
>them better into context.
>
>shoe crayon
>luigi-bob drake
>
>
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Peter Quartermain
128 East 23rd Avenue
Vancouver
B.C.
Canada V5V 1X2
Voice and fax: 604 876 8061
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:08:06 -0800
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996
Mr. Bernstein wrote-
"Lens's brilliantly iconoclastic and cosmic compression
of syntax and lexicon ranks Kuenstler with such pioneers
of Zaum (Khlebnikov's word for pervasively neologistic
poetry) as Gillespie, Melnick, and Inman."
I am quite probably wrong and in need of correction but it is my
understanding that zaum is more accurately translated as transrational,
trans-sense, or beyond sense. I'm not sure I understand how one gets from
that to "pervasively neologistic" which I understand to mean "new words".
I suppose the argument could be made that zaum encompasses this idea of
"new words" however it is my understanding that Khlebnikov had a distinct
fascination with the origins of words as such and prefered greatly to
return to the origins of the Russian language rather than to create
something new. From what I understand, his coinages etc. were, in his
opinion, a sort of "etymologism" which seems to leave little room for "new
words".
I believe Markov wrote, at one point, that Kruchonykh & Khlebnikov together
created the foundation for zaum in their piece entitled "The Word As Such."
I believe also there has been a great deal of uncertainty about the actual
origins of the word, popularly attributed to Khlebnikov, as it seems
several different people actually claim "the rights" as it were. I even
remember reading on a plane a few years ago a rather bizaare theory which
held that the word actually originated with one of the Burliuk brothers,
probably D. God help me if I can remember where I got that one.
Any help clarifying this would be greatly appreciated.
BTW I am still wondering if anyone knows of an English translation of A.N.
Chicherin's "Change of All"?
filch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:21:04 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: zaum
re zaum:
Markov also sugested a source for zaum may have been essays on
"speaking in tongues"in various religous sects in Russia--this would be as
"filch" pointed out, not the
invention of new words, but transrational words with sources in a
traditional religous context--
the relationship of the spiritual to the work of Kruchenyk,
Khlebnikov, Malevich (not to mention Kandinsky) is well known
on the next to last page of Spring and All, Wiiliams Carlos
Williams says of zaum, as he knew of it:
Writing is likened to music. The object would be it seems to
make poetry a pure art, like music. Painting, too. Writing, as with
certain of the modern Russians whose work I have seen, would use
unoriented sounds in place of conventional words. The poem would be
completely liberated when there is identity of the sound with
something--perhaps the emotion.
(This is interesting in relation to Ornette Coleman's famous
remark re Free Jazz: "It's not about notes, it's about feelings.)
--dave baptiste chirot
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:48:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: Not homophonic Mathews
Peter Quartermain wrote:
>I remember some years ago reading that Harry Mathews was compiling a
>vocabulary of words that existed in both French and English, out of which he
>was projecting a novel. But I no longer have the source for this snippet of
>information. Does anyone out there know anything about the Mathews project?
>Did he ever write any of it?
Peter -
I remember seeing something about this somewhere, too. &, if anyone could
do an entire novel in this mode, Mathews is one writer who might could. But
I'd thought this double vocabulary (sort of the inverse of homophonic - but
I can't think of a suffix that'd mean spelling, false cognates maybe) was
for the only slightly (don't want to offend any poets who may be on this
list) more modest possibility of short poems.
I mean, there's only so much you can do with the fact that, say, "pour" and
"pain" are words in both languages. To make a sustained narrative that
makes even an extremely tortured kind of sense in both languages seems to
be a perhaps insurmountable problem. Shorter lyrics seem a little less
problematic.
But then the first time I read, in French, about an amazing machine they
had at IRCAM which could do all kinds of weird transformations of sound. It
was weeks before I found someone who could tell me what it was. & I found
out that an "ordinateur" is just a "computer."
So, uh, I may not be the best person to judge the possible options here.
Bests
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:22:57 -1000
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960902175330.26677aa8@pop.unixg.ubc.ca>
Anyone know of "Ladle Rat Rotten Hut?" Not poetry but homophonic and
funny. gab.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 03:34:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Homophonic translations
Luigi-B.,
My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF
Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins:
Where
when itch scree
hurt as much?
Then how's their angle
or known gun?
Honky sets selves,
his name a eye nor much.
Plows lick answers:
each fucking a fun sign-in,
starker in design.
Dent is seen as niche....
(and so forth for seven long pages in that old Roof 8.5 x 11 format).
It was a piece I started circa '71 and worked on sporadically for
several years before I began to be satisfied with it.
I believe that somebody (Robert Kelly?) at one point a few years back
was trying to put together an anthology of such translations, but I
don't think anything ever came of the effort.
All best,
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:50:28 -0400
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From: Michael D Basinski <basinski@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 29 Aug 1996 to 30 Aug 1996
Comments: To: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199608310404.AAA11542@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu>
----------------------------
Michael Basinski
Poetry/Rare Books Collection
SUNY at Buffalo
716-645-2917 Fax: 716-645-3714
On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Automatic digest processor wrote:
> There are 10 messages totalling 426 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. 12? in sanskrit
> 2. need some info (2)
> 3. Events in Providence
> 4. interesting article on the web
> 5. Street-Art: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT" (fwd)
> 6. <No subject given>
> 7. Kerouac
> 8. Hannah Weiner
> 9. xxx/event: one
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:40:46 -0400
> From: Blair Seagram <blairsea@PANIX.COM>
> Subject: 12? in sanskrit
>
> Does anybody know what the sanskrit word for 12 is?
>
> Blair
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:57:31 -0400
> From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
> Subject: need some info
>
> Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack
> Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time
> tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm
> specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac:
> Writer without a home".
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:12:00 -0400
> From: Diane Marie Ward <dward@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Subject: Re: need some info
>
> The book Un homme grand : Jack Kerouac a la confluence des cultures= Jack
> Kerouac at the crossroads of many cultures -- is available at the
> University of Buffalo - we have 2 copies -- if you like (since I spend
> most of my daylight hours working for
> the Libraries) I can put you in touch with our Inter Library Loan Program
> / or put you in touch with the Poetry Collection. Email me backchannel.
>
> Also, does anyone have an email address for John (J. W.) Curry in Toronto?
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Michael Boughn wrote:
>
> > Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack
> > Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time
> > tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm
> > specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac:
> > Writer without a home".
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Diane Ward
> dward@acsu.buffalo.edu
> State University of New York at Buffalo
>
> THE AESTHETE'S LIST : http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dward/
>
> "I dreamt I dwelt in marble halls,
> And woke to find it true;
> I wasn't born for an age like this;
> Was Smith, Was Jones, Were you?" -- George Orwell written in 1935.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:44:13 EDT
> From: Gale Nelson <EL500005@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
> Subject: Events in Providence
>
> The following events are planned for Providence in the coming weeks:
>
> Wed, 4 Sep.
> Poetry readings by Maurice Scully (Dublin) and Tony Lopez (Devon)
> 8:00 pm TF Green, Young Orchard Street, between Hope & Cook, East Side
>
> Thu, 5 Sep.
> Performance work by MURMUR
> 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address)
>
> Tue, 10 Sep.
> Mixed genre readings by Lori Baker (fiction) and Gale Nelson (poetry)
> 7:00 pm Little Professor Book Center, N. Main Street
>
> Thu, 12 Sep.
> Night of A Thousand and One Readings by the Graduate Students of Brown
> Creative Writing
> 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address)
>
> Thu, 19 Sep.
> Poetry reading by August Kleinzahler, visiting assoc. professor at Brown
> 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address)
>
> Thu, 26 Sep.
> Fiction reading by Robert Coover
> 8:00 pm TF Green (see above address)
>
> 1-5 Oct.
> Unspeakable Practices III
> A festival of vanguard narrative, organized by Robert Coover
> Brown campus, various locations
>
> All events listed above are free and open to the public. All save the
> Little Professor Book Center Reading are sponsored by Creative Writing,
> Brown University.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:23:50 -0500
> From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: interesting article on the web
>
> a few weeks back, chris funkhouser posted in about an article on the web
> entitled
>
> "virtual whiteness and narrative diversity"
>
> by one joe lockard of uc/berkeley...
>
> just finished reading the piece, found it to be extremely interesting, and
> i too recommend it to those of you with an interest in questions of
> race/ethnicity and how critical discourse relating to these latter may be
> brought to bear on cspace...
>
> again, at
>
> http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~heroux/uc4/4-lockard.html
>
> best,
>
> joe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:26:37 -0500
> From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
> Subject: Street-Art: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT" (fwd)
>
> This of much interest & concern--to be aware of.
>
> (fwd. dbchirot)
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
>
> For Immediate Release: A.R.T.I.S.T. president Robert
> Lederman's New Trial Date Set For 9/9/96
>
> A new trial date has been set for Monday 9/9/96 Jury Part 1,
> 5th floor 100 Centre Street, Criminal Court Bldg. 9:30 A.M. The
> previously scheduled trial date of 7/30 was unexpectedly
> adjourned when a roomful of print and T.V. journalists showed
> up to cover the proceedings. Robert Lederman will be the first
> N.Y.C. street artist brought to trial. The prosecuting the case is
> D.A. David Jaffe. Judge Pickholtz is scheduled to hear the trial.
> Lederman is represented by attorney and one-time prosecutor,
> Marc Agnifilo (212) 768-7833. The defense has six
> eyewitnesses to the illegal arrest prepared to testify.
>
> Since 1993 the City has handcuffed and arrested more than
> 350 artists for displaying or selling their paintings on N.Y.C.
> streets. While it has avoided prosecuting any artist's case, the
> City continues to sell thousands of works of fine art it has
> illegally confiscated at its monthly forfeiture auction at One
> Police Plaza. D.A.'s and judges have begun publicly expressing
> disapproval of the policy.
>
> Lederman is charged with Unlicensed General Vending and two
> additional charges of Disorderly Conduct. Each charge carries a
> possible three month sentence. This is an unusual case in that
> the Disorderly Conduct charges as described by D.A. Jaffe at a
> preliminary hearing involve nothing more than the defendant
> handing out literature, holding up a protest sign that read,
> "Stop Arresting Artists", photographing the police confiscating
> another artists' work and handing out eight protest signs to
> other artists present. These activities, as well as displaying art,
> are fully protected by the First Amendment. Lederman has been
> arrested twice before for distributing literature exposing the
> City's artist arrest policy and numerous times while displaying
> his art.
>
> At a preliminary hearing held on 6/27 prosecuting D.A. David
> Jaffe told the presiding judge, "Robert Lederman has been
> arrested 13 times. If we don't stop him this will only continue.
> Before being arrested he handed out protest signs to the other
> artists and they marched up and down. He's even displaying
> photos of artists being arrested alongside his paintings."
>
> At that hearing the judge appeared predisposed to find
> Lederman guilty regardless of the facts in the case. Lederman's
> attorney was told he couldn't talk about the First Amendment.
> The judge and D.A. didn't want the defense to enter
> photographs taken at the arrest scene, which contradict the
> police report, as evidence. The judge also denied the defense
> the right to subpoena witnesses to testify on N.Y.C.'s vending
> ordinance or to enter relevant testimony by City officials from
> the ongoing street artist Federal suit, including the Corporation
> Counsel's admission that artists, "...cannot obtain a Vending
> License". [Lederman v. City of New York 94 civ. 7216 (MGC)].
> The Federal case is presently before the 2nd Circuit Federal
> Appeals Court with a decision expected at any time. Numerous
> museums, arts and legal rights groups, including the ACLU, The
> Whitney and MOMA have joined the suit in support of the artist-
> plaintiffs.
>
> Lederman is president of A.R.T.I.S.T. an advocacy group of over
> 200 New York street artists. He has been an outspoken critic
> of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's quality of life arrest policies and of
> City Council Member Kathryn Freed. Freed is known to be a
> motivating force behind the artist arrests and, according to the
> N.Y. Times, is in Federal Court "..seeking to overturn
> Constitutional protection for visual art". Observers believe this
> Criminal Court trial is an attempt to intimidate artist activists.
>
> Recently, Lederman and other A.R.T.I.S.T. members distributed
> a controversial leaflet at Criminal Court ("Why Plead Guilty?")
> advising so-called "quality of life" defendants to not plead
> guilty or accept plea bargaining arrangements and to demand
> a trial. Members of the D.A.'s office, defense lawyers and
> judges agreed with the leaflet, causing the Giuliani
> administration considerable embarrassment. A number of
> reporters claim they've been pressured by City officials and by
> the NYPD not to continue covering the street artist issue.
>
> For more information or to receive a press kit contact
> A.R.T.I.S.T. (718) 369-2111 E-mail ARTISTpres@aol.com
> or visit the A.R.T.I.S.T. web page:
> http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html
> Photos of this and other artist arrests are available.
>
> References to this trial, artist arrests and related material can
> be found in the following:
> New York Times, Sunday July 14, 1996, City section pg 13,
> lead story); "The War of Nerves Downtown; Kathryn Freed's War
> of Nerves" [detailed expose of City Council Member Freed]
> New York Times Magazine, Sunday July 14, 1996 pg. 8 The City
> "It's a Quality, Quality Life"
> Art In America, March 1996 pg. 128 "New Allies for Street
> Artists"
> New York Times Wednesday, January 24, 1996 Metro section
> pg. B1 "Street Art: Free Speech or Just Stuff?"
> New York Magazine, January 23, 1995 pg 16 "Among the
> Artlaws"
> Christian Science Monitor Thursday, July 14, 1994 pg. 11 "New
> York Reins In Street Art"
> Christian Science Monitor Wednesday, February 14, 1996
> "Conflict On the Street: Artists v. N.Y.C."
> Time Out Magazine Feb 21-27 1996 pg. 18 "Peddle Pushers"
> New York Amsterdam News Saturday, June 15, 1996 pg. 4
> "Artists To Sue Over First Amendment Right of Speech".
>
>
>
> --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:02:07 -0400
> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
> Subject: <No subject given>
>
> CURRENT PRICE LIST from SUBPOETICS/POETRY CITY
>
> _Sea Lyrics_ by Lisa Jarnot $5
> _Western Love_ by Bill Luoma $5
> _Lapsis Linguae_ by Marcella Durand $5
> _Immediate Orgy & Audit_ by Ange Mlinko $5
> _August_ by Dan Bouchard (special issue of Compound Eye, ed. A. Mlinko) $1
> _Thunk_ by Kevin Davies $3
> _A Little Gold Book_ by Jordan Davis $5
> _Sincerity Loops_ by Steve Carll $5
>
> and now...
>
> MASS AVE, ed. by Dan Bouchard $5
> since 1996
> Mass Ave has featured such writers as
> Jawanza Ali Keita, Ange Mlinko, Jordan Davis, Renee Gladman, Chris
> Stroffolino, David Baratier, Giovanni Singleton, Bill Luoma, Lisa Amber
> Phillips, Beth Anderson, Meredith Quartermain, Steve Carll, Michael Leddy
> and David Golumbia--
>
> "the tightest
> pants in heaven"
>
>
> To order, send an email to jdavis@panix.com with your street address and
> the books you need. Add $3 for first class shipping, orders over $25 add $0
> for shipping even though here in New York we have to take all of our
> packages to the post office somebody with a tv let me know if the unabomber
> movie is any good.
>
> Jordan Davis
> 46 E 7 #10
> NYC 10003
> jdavis@panix.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:14:56 -0700
> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
> Subject: Re: Kerouac
>
> >Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack
> >Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time
> >tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm
> >specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac:
> >Writer without a home".
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Mike
> >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
>
> Mike,
>
> Yeah, the book is as you titled it. Edited by Pierre Anctil, Louis Dupont,
> Remi Ferland and Eric Waddell. Published by carleton University Press,
> 1990. It's proceedings from that Kerouac conference in Quebec.It is
> distributed by Oxford, so shd be easily obtainable. Nicosia's piece is 20pp
> long.
>
>
>
>
> George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren
>
> de una yedra de s=EDlabras."
> 2499 West 37th Ave.,
> Vancouver, B.C.,
> Canada V6M 1P4
> --Octavio Paz
> fax: 1-604-266-9000
> e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700
> From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
> Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner
>
> Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine:
> Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be
> one of the major works in that special issue devoted to
> the "theatrical" in lit.
>
> Douglas Messerli
>
>
> At 10:11 PM 8/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >james sherry writes:
> >> Roof Books will publish Hannah's Weiner's <<We Speak Silent>> this fall. I
> >> will try to make a special offer to the list when the book becomes available.
> >
> >goody! in the meantime, where can i get "PAH" or PAW, that charles mentioned?
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, Maria, I wonder about your theory. The themes in Hannah's
> >> writing don't seem to me to have much to do with holocaust. A list of
> >> them would show late sixties tv and political issues, the fast,
> >> lsd, family, friends, and isolation. Why not take her at her word?
> >
> >i'm not talking about thematics so much as effect; her writing as an effect of
> >post-holocaust (Jewish) subjectivity. something like that. not trying to
> >ferret out any subtext. still, thanks for the list of identifiable themes.
> >>
> >> The interest for me in Hannah's writing has always been her ability to
> >> weave through inside and out without the usual membranes and transitions.
> >> For Hannah much of what we call art comes quite easily to her once she
> >> has put herself in a particular position, which I don't need to characterize.
> >
> >good point; i like stuff about weaving and membranes.
> >>
> >> Also see Maria Damon's essay in the new issue of <<Chain>>: Hannah makes
> >> a pure play at consciousness by mixing genres. Sometimes she succeeds and
> >> the reader is pleased.
> >
> >interesting; what specific genres wd u say she mixes?
> >>
> >> James
> >maria d
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:45:14 -0700
> From: jeffrey timmons <mnamna@IMAP1.ASU.EDU>
> Subject: xxx/event: one
>
> xxx/event: one
>
>
> they took over the campus at
> arizona state university this week
> 75,000 people coming for the supperbowl
> corporate hospitality suites rise over the sacred
> parking lots worshiped by high and low alike
> classes were cancelled for two days
> closed the library early
> locked the doors completely to accomodate
> stuporsunday
> official souvenir vendor distribution sites for all
> this splurf-fest capital guzzle feed-trough
> greenback shower of the sports season
> a soft-drink company (who will remain
> anonymous so as not to endorse this product unwittingly)
> will throw a party for students with hot dogs for sale
> a local hemp spokesman says he will sell dope at the scupperbog
> the economic wind fall for tempe phoenix
> arizona will be
> tremendous according to the saturation coverage by
> the arizona republic(an) for the potential to "cash-in"
> on the xxx/event
> arizona state university is "bloated and
> inefficient"
> according to a republican govenor whos filed for
> bankruptcy
> budget cuts will likely lead to tuition raises while the
> other two state schools will suffer no such cutbacks
> the stutterbloff is on more peoples minds than the next
> goverment shut-down
> arizona state university students marched down
> the main strip of tempe protesting the ironies of this
> money-gozzling fleet-ditch diving city . . .
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of POETICS Digest - 29 Aug 1996 to 30 Aug 1996
> **************************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:57:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics
Don Cheney has done some good work in this area. All of Catullus and 10
Propertius Odies. Don is a skilled prose writer, so in his hands you get a
real nasty & hilarious narrative, as you get in Catullus & Propertius, but
you also get great sound. Whereas in Zukofsky's homophones, eg, you for the
most part just get great sound, with the nasty humors subordinate.
Below are some Propertius Cheney's stolen from the web at:
http://fuji.ucsd.edu/alfredo
First
Cynthia. First, your misery. I see the pit in your eyes
and we don't hold each other after love.
To me this constant deceit looms fast
and it is impossible (dead) to press it: I love your feet.
Do kiss me and do quit casting all these
improbable women at me, I don't want your consolation.
And I am totally furious that there's no deficit this year.
I know you have God but I have adultery.
Milanion knew the fugue would end and told the workers
to say that you and I are aunts conducting a tour of the silo.
Now, I'm in no Parthenonian mood to make amends for your aunt's errors.
I bat and she always suits me up, fair as video.
She and I are jalai percussionists. You'll hear the ramifications.
Arcadia is sow city where dopey buses run the gamut.
Scram you poor, crazy, domestic woman,
love in tandem precedes you and is a valiant benefactor.
In me, love is always late, not that you understand art.
And now that you mention it I note that in a previous life I was angry
at you. We quibbled about duck tape and lunar fallacies
and worked in sacred, magic monasteries
in a dumb age dominated by men who converted us
and, face it pal, they were going to eat me or mince me.
I think some of the credit goes to your side and almost all
to the Cytae posse who belted out song after song.
And you who never lapses into "Once In Love With Amy," I love you.
Why this is right I can't say. Your breasts exhilarate
for breasts and for rum your pate, myrrh and ignorance.
I have liberty in the sit mode but why did you light and locate my anger?
We're furtive for radical men and furtive for underwear.
I won't write why your cat isn't female
or why you bus to see your facile god's annual aura.
Your parents always love to see us in a tutu.
To me you are Venus, especially at night when we exercise our love.
And no one you accuse has a temper to fit my love.
In hock, no money. You and I are bad off, so when we have more
money to cure our net assets will mutate into crazy love.
But if the money is late it will be adieu to you,
you who wants lots of references, you are...Bah! Oh, my money!
Third
The sea is calm and I quit seeing the singing dentist.
Language deserts us. Knowledge (literally: "bus")
is also calm. And accurate.
I am liberal during "coitus andromeda".
I am an assiduous necker, less than Eden but fess up, the chore is
calm in her funny conceit. A pie doesn't know
how tall you or I or the USA is. Hi Molly, I'm spiraling quietly.
Cynthia, I'm not certain I can put the nix on so many kisses.
I'm sober like many foreigners who used to say "banco!"
and who rent Sarah at night. Face it boys,
thank your egos not your dumb senses which everyone depends on.
I impress Molly: "A condor is just a dire bull."
And what music can only duplicate, my heart corrects. While you and I
are bent over love or a book you tell me that God's uterus
is the subject the thief posited. To tempt is to lacerate
the eyes and admonitions of "so sue me and arm my hands"
don't soothe your wounds. The air is dominant, the turbulence quiets 'em.
Expert matrons, I urge you satiate,
but my sick intentions fix my eyes on a harem (bam!).
Arguments and ignorance in a kitty corner of the bus.
And my only mode is our mode of front-wheel- drive Corollas.
That pony is yours, Cynthia, temporarily.
My mode lapses into gaudiness, for the mare's capillaries
are not furtive because a pony is not a damn bus.
Largely, everyone is an ingrate but some grate more.
Money is always prone to violent scenes
and quotients are rarely suspected of having motives.
Obstinately you want the suspicious credit.
You don't want to be insolent and you aren't. You are timid.
Now which life are you in that you know to be yours?
Don't die you ersatz procurer of hats from the moon.
The moon is dead but you are illuminated.
Compose it on a bus the radius of which can fake it on a cello.
Molly, sit down and fix the torn cubicle.
"We" refers to "you" in "tandem" in your lecture.
If you alter the clauses will you be expelled and put on a bus?
Not that you belong. Our consumation in the temporal night
was languid and exact. Do I ride on the side of the bus?
Oh you tease me at night with improbable tales from magazines.
My misery always has you in it.
I fall (bam!) on my somnolent stamina. The purpose
is verses and I confess Orpheus sings lyrics.
Enter the dumb thief. I come and a Gay bar is deserted.
And outside is always the longest in the morass of love.
And dumb me: "I can sop-up this lap, Sam, so pour impudent Alice
a strawberry liqueur which ultimately will cure me."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:26:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Amber Phillips <LPHILLIPS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
Gabrielle--
I have a copy of "ladle rat rotten hut" on my office door at school, and
I pass it out to my academic writing students as a "cautionary tale" against
excessive dependence upon their word-processing spell checkers. I end up
reading it in a sing-songy voice like the Swedish Chef from the muppets.
Lisa Amber Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:50:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CRIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Swear word here!
George Bowering added ("I have been instructed..."):
> > >> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the
> > >> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures--
> > >> >
> > >> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed
> > >>
> > >> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was
> > >> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little
> > >> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough.
> > >
> > >I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can
> > >clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but
> > >he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite
> > >all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get
> > >paid for the shoot?
> > I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David
> > Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon
> > as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared
> > against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some
> > women's clothing in Washington.
Peckham, Gass, Fairweather & Zukofsky
Attorneys at Law
September 3, 1996
Dear Mr. Bowering:
It has come to our attention that you are making veiled threats to our
client, Rachel Loden, using the cover of a Mr. David Bromige, a
notorious carnival barker of uncertain national origin. We strongly
advise you to refrain from further insinuations about Ms. Loden and
the originality of her sonnet sequence, "Snorkling the Lotus." If
we are unsuccessful in obtaining your cooperation, we may be forced
to bring certain delicate matters to light. We are in particular most
anxious to avoid any further mention of that sordid little contretemps
with the cocktail hostess in Winnipeg. Need we go on?
As for Mr. Wallace, we earnestly hope that he seeks counseling.
Yours very sincerely,
Roderick Slyme, Esq.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:04:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kathrine Varnes <kvarnes@UDEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.960902222228.2379E-100000@uhunix5>
On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote:
> Anyone know of "Ladle Rat Rotten Hut?" Not poetry but homophonic and
> funny. gab.
>
> Yeah. W.D. Snodgrass has an essay in the Southern Review (?) all about
> the importance of nonsense in poetry and pleasure. He talks at length
> about Ladle Rat Rotten Hut and ties that to poetry. I don't have all
> the details because I only borrowed a friend's copy, but it's a fun
> essay -- many illustrations of this sort.
______________________
Kathrine Varnes
kvarnes@udel.edu
University of Delaware
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:09:06 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Sep 1996 to 2 Sep 1996
In-Reply-To: <199609030404.AAA04091@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
I have a question for all my dear friends on this List:
if, as Alan Golding reminded us in his paper, there isn't supposed to be a
real divide between poetry and theory, if, as "linguistically innovative"
writers have been saying for 20 years or more, genres are fluid, hybrid,
etc etc., why is it that at "Assembling Alternatives" the critics were
absolutely second-class citizens? The poets got to read for 20 minutes
and give 20 minute papers; the critics and scholars got to give 20 minute
papers, often in slots where there was no time for discussion. The poets
are listed in the brochure, with pics and bios; the critics, all of whom
paid their way to this conference (in my case over $1,000) were invisible
in that regard.
Do we then still believe in the secondariness of critical discourse?
Would critics have been allowed to spend their 20 minute "papers"
schmoozing about this and that as some of the poets who gave papers did?
And if so, how is all this "linguistically innovative" discourse any
different from the good old poetry festival attended by poets only?
A second important issue which also relates back to the Orono conference:
I think that when there's no time for discussion, as there wasn't here,
really strange things happen. People will make authoritative statements
that may in fact be just plain wrong. No one calls the person on it, no
one takes up the issues--and there we are. Philip Mead came all the way
from Australia for the conference, spoke for 20 minutes on the situation
in Australian poetry which is fascinating and that was that. No
questions, no responses.
There were many exhilerating moments and wonderful readings and for those
of us from the U.S. it was very exciting to meet (however briefly in the
endless marathon) the British poets. But it remains wholly unclear to me
who was allowed to read or perform, what makes some of the people who read
or performed "linguistically innovative" or "alternative," and so on. I
wonder if anyone else shares my frustration.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:12:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
ASSEMBLING ALTERNATIVES
An international poetry conference/festival
held at the University of New Hampshire, Durham
29 August-2 September, 1996
THE NEW ENGLAND CENTER sits like a nest into a boulder-spattered wooded
hillside on the edge of the University of New Hampshire campus. "To
assemble," "one or other of two," etc.=97-well, here it was: "Assembling
Alternatives" sang like a bird=92s egg, snug in the downy center of its=
forest
loft. And what could be more to the point? Robbin=92 these words from all
points of the compass! Like the Vancouver conference of last summer, this
conference enjoyed not only splendid weather (made even more delicious by
the impending=97though never arriving=97sledge hammer of hurricane Edouard=
aka
Hugo Ball rolling up the coast) but a similar (though not author-based)
focus and an exhilarating sense of multi-Englished poetries. (Aussi avec un
peu de Queb=E9coise!) For a brief few days, New England became New=
Englishes,
words falling ah from the clear blue skies.
Unlike larger conferences (and the word "conference" shouldn=92t even be=
used
here) where words tend to sediment into a drone, Assembling Alternatives
offered a gourmet feast of language leaping electrified across continents,
seas, and islands. The talks were terrific, the readings offered one after
another exemplar of how experimental writing (also sometimes called
"linguistically-innovative" writing=97-among other terms) might propose
itself=97and how also it might NOT be limited. Despite the wide range of
pronunciations, dialects, sets of vernacular, tropes, themes, perspectives,
and forms, Assembling Alternatives allowed a multi-voiced rendering of
innovative language=97-languages that never once sat still nor relented on
their challenge to the gourmet-fed, sleep-deprived, conversation-charged,
tone-ecstatic, grammar-doubting assemblers.
As I mentioned in the talk I gave-=97and this was completely=
earnest=97-listing
the linguistic predecessors to electronic poetries=97-
Following World War II, the examination of system in Olson, Duncan
and Blaser=92s serial works, Creeley=92s numeric determinations,
Bernstein, Silliman, Grenier, Howe=92s radical typographies, the
explorations of language by Maggie O=92Sullivan, Karen MacCormack,
Joan Retallack, and Hannah Weiner=97and the work of all those listed
in this conference program--and the alleatories of Mac Low and Cage
point in different ways to various forms of nonlinearity
that present in New Hampshire was a regiment of innovators that pointed in
all these ways (as Gertrude Stein puts it: "a spectacle and nothing strange
a single hurt color and an arrangement in a system to pointing.") There
could hardly be a better assembly in this day and age to put forward what I
wanted to say. It is hard to mention any specific participants (this is my
point!) without doing disservice to the fact that the quality and strengths
of nearly all of those present, were unveeringly strong. However, evening
readings through the penultimate night alone offered the likes of Maggie
O=92Sullivan, Kathleen Fraser, Ken Edwards, Joan Retallack, Tom Raworth,
Pierre Joris, Leslie Scalapino, Allen Fisher, Catherine Walsh, Steve
McCaffery, Robert Sheppard, Karen MacCormack, Charles Bernstein, Bob
Perelman, Denise Riley, Abigail Child, Barrett Watten, and Nicole Brossard,
among other great readers.
What, beside this extraordinary talent, made the conference so useful? One
fact was the significant presence of women poets. (Out of 39 evening slots,
for example, 16 were occupied by women=97not yet representative but a sight
better than most events.) Further, typically marginalized areas of working
were brought straight onto the stage.
One of these was performance poetry. The wide participation by
performance poets was inspiring=97-and the final night=92s reading turned=
out to
be a state of the art f=EAte, gala, grand =85 FESTIVAL (after all, this word=
was
right on the conference program!) on how experimental poets might perform
the word. In one evening, in a sticky Portsmouth theatre briefly stolen from
the Rocky Horror Picture Show, performance/artists/poets such as David
Bromige, Fiona Templeton, cris cheek, Paul Dutton, Caroline Bergvall, Hazel
Smith, Christian B=F6k, and Se=E1n =D3hUig=EDn each took to the=
brightly-colored,
multi-leveled stage. Sound poets Dutton and B=F6k performed at the apex of
sound poetry=92s possibilities. cris cheek provided a multi-voiced tour de
force. Bergvall may=92ve stolen the show with her understated style, her
poignant delivery, her arched body which seemed to act as a catapult hurling
her taut, multileveled sensual incantations sizzling into the top rows of
the Seacoast Repertory Theatre.
Another marginalized area brought into the spotlight was witnessed
by the inclusion of electronic media in the event=97-not only as a footnote
but somewhat prominently. Though this was conference was not about
electronic poetries let me congratulate Romana Huk for being one of the
first to recognize, by including such a panel in the discussion of issues
about innovative writing, that the formal issues about writing at the heart
of experimental poetries ARE THE SAME ISSUES being explored by the literary
electronic media. This is the first time I know that in a literary
conference this kinship of language concerns has been addressed. This
plenary session on electronic media included John Cayley, Jim Rosenberg,
Chris Funkhouser, and me. The question period for this session was extremely
animated. The main question: are the electronic media torturing the word by
their hidden codes? Or are they providing tools to be used in an exploration
of the possibilities of language? Though this matter wasn=92t brought to a
final rest, the afternoon readings that day, which included poets working in
electronic media (we got asterisks=97-my spell checker just suggested
"ostriches" or "austerities" here=97-on the program!) certainly helped to
suggest an answer to this question.
This is perhaps a poet=92s perspective. Events such as this can
always, in hindsight, be found to have shortcomings. But as a venue for
listening to such poets reading and talking, the conference was an intense
joy over too soon. And now? Many more books (and writing in other forms) to
read. Edouard? Extratropical to the south of Nova Scotia, so says the
National Hurricane Center. Thankfully, I still see pine trees and can now
more vividly sense Irish intonations as I read...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:33:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: New Hampshire Briefs
Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com
a short report from an unprofessional New Hampshire conference crasher. I
only saw events from Sat evening thru mon, so missed lots of good things.
also missed lots of early morning stuff. apologies.
I did buy Randolph Healy's book 25 Poems (from the Beau Booklet Series) (16a
Ballyman Road / Bray, County Wicklow / Republic of Ireland / $10) and love
it.
Readings that stuck with me:
Paul Dutton, mercury.
Deanna Ferguson, good sparse.
Lisa Robertson, repeating amazon over & over.
Miles Champion, 5 words at once.
Chris Stroffolino, eyes rolled back in head.
Hazel Smith, backwards.
Juliana Spahr, wanting to go to the beach.
I enjoyed the drive up with Tony Door because an '81 80 Langston Street tape
of Berrigan's sonnets magically appeared in my mailbox on friday afternoon
along with The basement tapes thank you anonymous donor, stopping in Boston
friday night & sleeping on the floor of a studio apt with 5 others then
having breakfast with Dan Bouchard Ange Mlinko Joe Torra and the twins,
trading books, Margy Sloan with a streak in her hair saying that women
usually asked her about her rings, chris cheek (who looks like mephistopheles
according to JJ Moxley) walking up to Marjorie Perloff during his talk
gyrating his hands and saying I am exciting the molecules in front of your
face and you will breathe them in and be affected, trying to talk Paul Dutton
out of his disillusionment with baseball, Miles Champion who reads faster
than Tom Raworth, seeing Jim Rosenberg's screen of overlapping words &
realizing it to be a representation of Miles Champion's tonal clusters yes I
find hearing Miles Champion read not to be a diachronic event, Juliana Spahr
saying there were three poems with monkey penises tonight, Peter Culley
saying well what would Ted Berrigan do, meeting John Wilkinson who really saw
the marginalization of Rodefer and we thought maybe Rodefern gets more
popular in the uk and then Helen Vendler discovers him, sleeping on the floor
of Miles Champion's & Peter Gizzi's motel room & yakety yak, watching the
weather channel hysteria of eduardo, Lisa Robertson and the tie question
(shorter is better), Tony Door tying it short the wife's job, Charles
Bernstein drawing a graph of his educational riser on the chalk board in the
bar (slope=4.7) while he told the story of how Clayton Eshelman once gave me
an F in Vallejo/Artaud,
The Q & A session:
Q. Where are the brits?
A. In the bar,
drinking scotch with my friends and sitting on the ground at 2:30 in the
morning, Tom Raworth wanting a pizza, Deanna Ferguson poking Bob Perelman in
the chest repeatedly and saying you're more macho than Bruce Andrews, that's
pronounced matcho for all you yanks, asking directions in a car from a local
old guy and riffing with Steve McCaffery, Miles Champion, Tony Door, & Karen
MacCormack:
take the spaul
pspsauld
sp shc sh shpalll
sp scshpaulding
turnpike,
Romana Huk being gracious and doing a great job, Fiona Templeton taking the
skirt off the plenary session table, Steve McCaffery wanting to install
trousers on its the exposed legs, noting that the daughters of albion took
their breakfast together, Barrett Watten saying Eliot was most British when
a) he was refusing to incorporate popular culture into his pomes or b) not
having sex, Tony Lopez calling Barrett Watten ignorant & Barrett Watten
saying he didn't appreciate being addressed in that manner, Billy Miles
saying he's sick of americanocentrism, wondering about the assumed center of
language poets in the "experimental community," Tony Door saying he always
thought experimental meant like Jackson Jackson and that l-poets weren't
experimental in a scientific sense, Barrett Watten saying his first degree
was in science & usually people criticise him & camp as being too lab coaty
oh and Joan Retallack is rigorous, lots of folks wondering where the people
of color were, hearing only two men showed up to my panel which was composed
of women, writing a Jeff Derksen poem on the drive home with Peter Culley Lee
Ann Brown & Tony Door, I smell interstate.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:54:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
Thanks Don, for correcting that. I was think, of course,
of MEN IN AIDA, but pulled my copy of PCOET instead.
Douglas
At 03:44 PM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>is PCOET a homophonic translation? or were you thinking
> of melnick's MEN IN AIDA?
>
> doncheney
> dcheney@ucsd.edu
>
>You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET
>and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely
>sound-rhymed poem from Donne.
>
>Douglas Messerli
>
>
>At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic
>>>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another
>>>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as
>>>this:
>>
>>Several that come quickly to mind are:
>>
>>Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The
>>opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic
>>translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by,
>>collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou,
>>George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic
>>translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane
>>Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating
>>Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a
>>kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including
>>homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I
>>remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being
>>identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones.
>>
>>I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never
>>knew about.
>>
>>Bests
>>
>>Herb
>>
>>
>>Herb Levy
>>herb@eskimo.com
>>
>
>
>>-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging)
>>Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id JAA19303
sendmail
>>Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
[128.205.7.
>>Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release
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(8
>>X-Sender: djmess@cinenet.net
>>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16)
>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; chars
>>Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960902080017.1
>>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700
>>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
>>Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UB
>>From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
>>Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics...
>>To: Mul
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:56:36 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: Homophonic translations
Yes, Ron, and it's still one of favorite poems.
Douglas Messerli
At 03:34 AM 9/3/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Luigi-B.,
>
>My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF
>Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins:
>
>Where
>when itch scree
>hurt as much?
>
>Then how's their angle
>or known gun?
>
>Honky sets selves,
>his name a eye nor much.
>
>Plows lick answers:
>each fucking a fun sign-in,
>starker in design.
>Dent is seen as niche....
>
>(and so forth for seven long pages in that old Roof 8.5 x 11 format).
>It was a piece I started circa '71 and worked on sporadically for
>several years before I began to be satisfied with it.
>
>I believe that somebody (Robert Kelly?) at one point a few years back
>was trying to put together an anthology of such translations, but I
>don't think anything ever came of the effort.
>
>All best,
>
>Ron Silliman
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:41:12 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julia Stein <jstein@LAEDU.LALC.K12.CA.US>
Subject: Re: Post-Labor Day
In honor of the exotic dancers in S.F. who just voted to unionize their
workplace, I'd like to contribute an excerpt from Joan Jobe Smith's poem
"Intimacy" from her book Jehovah Jukebox about working as a go-go dancer:
We were Delilah, Salome, Jane Avril,
and Gypsy Rose Lee. We knew
what happened to Samson's hair,
the Baptists's head, why Toulouse longed
for absinthe, and who was the real father
of the child in our wombs. We knew
the original looney tunes, and go-go steps
danced in the Cro-Magnon caves by moonlight ...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:45:14 +0000
Reply-To: Robert.T.Archambeau.2@nd.edu
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Archambeau <Robert.T.Archambeau.2@ND.EDU>
Organization: Lake Forest College
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Sep 1996 to 2 Sep 1996
I understand Marjorie Perloff's frustration about the lack of time for
discussion at the New Hampshire poetry conference/festival: the best
discussions I had there were informal and private, and I feel that
many of the most interesting questions didn't get asked in a public
forum. But to some degree at least I think those who came as critics
(a group in which I include myself) were responsible for this state of
affairs: I noticed that people tended to go over the allotted time
limit, even when they skipped passages of the essay that they'd come
to read. Had all of the papers actually _been_ 20 minutes long, there
would have been time to start some interesting discussions.
As far as the question of the status of critics goes, Marjorie raises
an interesting point. Although I have nothing to complain about
personally (I had the opening slot on the first plenary session) the
critics did only get to speak once, and the poets tended to both
address critical issues and to read from or perform their work. There
is a bit of a conundrum here, though: if poets are restricted to only
one activity, we are deprived of the "poet's prose" that can often be
so valuable, especially with experimental work; if critics are allowed
to read twice in order to receive as much attention as poets,
conference schedules will be even more crowded than they already are,
and there will be even less time for discussion. The real solution,
of course, would be to have longer conferences, but who has the
funding (or the time)?
All that aside, I look at my schedule from New Hampshire and realize
that it was a miracle that this conference came into being, and think
that Romana Huk deserves our thanks for pulling it all together.
--Robert Archambeau
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:21:46 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ian Wilson <iwilson@MGMUA.COM>
Subject: The Herman Review
Comments: To: CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu, e-grad@listproc.bgsu.edu
Some of you may be familiar with The Herman Review published by Rick
Bursky in Los Angeles. The journal has featured both well known and
less known poets. Bursky is interested in the best writing he can
find, no matter who it comes from.
For a variety of personal reasons, Rick is considering stopping
publication. He had assembled all the material for the No. 3 when
circumstances arose that may force him to abandon the project if not
forever than for a long, long time.
I believe Rick Bursky would welcome expressions of support, written or
financial. Please do NOT take this as a solicitation. Small
magazines, unaffiliated with a publishing house or an academic sponsor
have a rough time of it. If nothing else, I think Rick Bursky needs
to hear that his journal has value and that it would be a shame for it
to cease publication.
Rick Bursky can be reached at BURONE@AOL.COM
Ian Wilson
Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles
iwilson@mgmua.com
http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/ian1.htm
http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/story/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:37:06 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: cocktail waitress
>George Bowering added ("I have been instructed..."):
>
>> > >> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it
>>wasn't the
>> > >> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures--
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed
>> > >>
>> > >> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet,
>>it was
>> > >> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a
>>little
>> > >> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough.
>> > >
>> > >I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can
>> > >clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but
>> > >he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite
>> > >all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get
>> > >paid for the shoot?
>
>> > I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David
>> > Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon
>> > as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared
>> > against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some
>> > women's clothing in Washington.
>
>
> Peckham, Gass, Fairweather & Zukofsky
> Attorneys at Law
>
> September 3, 1996
>
>Dear Mr. Bowering:
>
>It has come to our attention that you are making veiled threats to our
>client, Rachel Loden, using the cover of a Mr. David Bromige, a
>notorious carnival barker of uncertain national origin. We strongly
>advise you to refrain from further insinuations about Ms. Loden and
>the originality of her sonnet sequence, "Snorkling the Lotus." If
>we are unsuccessful in obtaining your cooperation, we may be forced
>to bring certain delicate matters to light. We are in particular most
>anxious to avoid any further mention of that sordid little contretemps
>with the cocktail hostess in Winnipeg. Need we go on?
>
>As for Mr. Wallace, we earnestly hope that he seeks counseling.
>
>Yours very sincerely,
>
>Roderick Slyme, Esq.
That little slattern! She promised me that she would not breathe a thing to
a soul. Okay, Okay, I take it back. And I think that I can speak for mr.
Bromige.
I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I
might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her
eyes turned up when she showed it to me.
George Bowering.
"I sit inside the blond before you"
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:37:02 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Homophonic translations
>Luigi-B.,
>
>My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF
>Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins:
I also did some of that stuff in _Allophanes_
George Bowering.
"I sit inside the blond before you"
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:48:18 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: DEATH OF THE LANGUAGE POET
DEATH OF THE LANGUAGE POET
to the tune of "erie canal"
It was 40 miles from Albany
forget it I never shall
(or was it Buffalo? or - Orono?)
he was driving like hell
through the Dutch foothills in Dutch.
The night was fauogued, dark,cloodie.
Nedertlandisch.
He was thinking to hisself: "raw puddle strudle chip fart blague m'gosh".
Swerved to avade a mere lil bunny rabbit - into the right lane!
The wrong right lane - the left lane...
Cops to the right of 'im - cops to the left of 'im
hollered and thundered. Stormed at with shot & shell
(fergit it me never shall)
he pulls over. Officer Les Strudel - in hip boots.
"Drivers License." Lou Paul (Langpo):
"Skid works the road flip fear squirt."
Les steps back apace. "OK fella - step outa the car, slowly."
Lou climbs out meekly (wearin his collegiate apron
Two bars of community service demi-denim & blue loafers)
Les: "Feelin alright?" Lou: "Brit band-aid"
Les: "Bump yr head er something?" Lou: Egg fool neal viper young no-head!"
Les: Now don't get rowdy - where you headed?
Lou: Squeeze chip le autre genes warpo trammel hide bucket frisbee..."
[mumbling, reaches for conference paper. Les "freaks" FREAKS f*r*e*a8l.n >AKje
draws. Fires. Lou falls, South Dakota. Presses lettres to litter atcher
atch atchoo agghhhhhh......[sound of archived papers fading into futurity]]
Les: I didn't mean to...
Lou: I'm not really....[sighs] Dad. I am an... AUTHOR. [fade-out] Je suisse..
[brit music. french kisses. American Flag.]
The Boy Scouts washed his body off the turnpike
with Pan T-Hose and D-Odiferrance-Defungt...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:16:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Schultz <SSchu30844@AOL.COM>
Subject: my two senses
Dear all--to those of you who were in New Hampshire, it was delightful
meeting you again or for the first time. Best to Romana, who did an
absolutely terrific job.
A few comments, following Marjorie Perloff, if not exactly on the same
subjects, and perhaps too autobiocritical:
--I felt least at home toward the beginning of the conference when I
encountered utter culture shock moving from a place (Hawai'i) where
Caucasians are a minority to a place (the conf) where there was hardly anyone
else and I had the sense that differences were being hidden under a rhetoric
of assembling samenesses;
--I felt most at home at the end of the last panel during the postcolonial
moment (this was when the culture shock wore off quickly!) when suddenly the
Welshman was chiding the Englishman for colonizing the concept of "bard" and
the Irishman was critiquing the American poets for being provincial and the
Australians were silent perhaps because they were not even on the billing,
though Phillip Mead and Ann Vickery and Hazel Smith were very much in
attendance and participating brilliantly, and I felt compelled to make
trouble about the lack of multicultural input from my peripheral perspective
in mid-Pacific (actually, I'm now in New York state, but no matter, I'm still
jetlagged by several hours).
--This reminded me of local Asian American writers in Hawai'i telling
mainland white writers and critics that they didn't know enough about Hawai'i
and were getting things so very wrong. It reminded me of Hawaiian writers
and critics telling both local Asian writers and mainland haoles that they
were appropriating the place for their own interests. It was so damn
contentious that I felt right back at home.
--So I'm glad we met and listened to too much stuff and looked at pictures of
some poets and heard critics through the interstices (cf. Marjorie P). And
I'm actually glad that we fought a bit.
--In response to something Steve Evans, whose work I greatly admire, said to
me. No, I don't think that I was assuming that this conference as normative
and that we should invite others to participate in it. Rather, I think we
should change the entire rhetoric of our "alternative" conferences to
include--in a REAL sense--writers who are not white and who are marginalized
in very different ways from Language writers--marginalized by class and
language and race, rather than by position or stance, such that a genuine
and noisy dialogue would ensue. How's about Language writers (we all know
their names!) and Hagedorn and Yamanaka and LKJ and Brathwaite and Barry
Masuda (a former student and wonderful local/Language writer) and others and
others all together under one hothouse roof?? This involves more than just
inviting people. It involves re-figuring our rhetoric about ourselves a bit.
And it would be exciting--to cite just one imagined example--to see cris
cheek perform with a dub poet and to hear the music of what happened (to
quote a name much hissed at).
--This is where I admired Bob Perelman's brief plea for intelligibility.
Yes, the poetry should be, can be, as unintelligible as possible. But the
explanations need to be there and be good. In my classrooms the explanations
are rewarded with some interest. Otherwise, any Language writer, no matter
how revolutionary and subversive her rhetoric is "just another white guy" in
Hawai'i--or other places off the beaten monocultural track--and will not get
noticed except as another imperial presence. Ten people, all of them lobbied
frenetically, will show up to her reading in a large auditorium, because
they've already seen, or think they've seen, too many such "white guys"
before. Unless that engagement is entered into, and shouted about, certain
assumptions, which are often untrue, will govern. This is not a sell out,
but a possible connection with writers who are doing similar, if different
(of course!) projects, and who would not be reached or reach "us" without the
effort.
--My aol bill is increasing geometrically! A fond good bye to all.
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:33:29 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Sun&Moon
Sorry to ask this over the list.
Could someone Sun & Moon email me, i have lost the address & need to discuss
an account.
Thanks,
Dan Salmon.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:41:15 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ira Lightman <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Homophonic translations
I just wanted to address the word "translation"
in this phrase "homophonic translations":
1) Is there an attempt to bring in an idiom
that brings over the author translated; ie what
that author might have done in our
language environments and culture environments?
2) Is there an attempt to bring in a
(translated) author whose presence in modern
idiom is rebarbative, disruptive,
*not* hip and modern, as a corrective to
modern idiom, eg T.S. Eliot?
3) Is homophonic translation an excuse for
a poet with a rampant ego (like Zukofsky -
see Mary Oppen's memoir in her Meaning A Life)
to riff off the original, perhaps as if thus
an equal, without actually measuring up?
Does it take some of the reflected glory
of say Catullus, the Establishment glow?
3-B) If it is "play", when we play as adults
shouldn't it be different from playing as a
child - since we cannot pretend to a child's
lack of understanding of ramifications,
except as a forcefully asserted imitation
child persona? Whose play is that? How
enjoyable for those others in one's circle?
4) How often is homophonic translation what it
might say it's trying to be: a more modest
attempt to enter the cultural negotiation
between readers in an Establishment and writers
who have been canonised into an Establishment?
Who do not necessarily belong there and/or are
not particularly there for themselves but
actually as a culturally representative
lab specimen in a lab which neither understands
the culture nor "its" "specimens"?
5) How often is such translation a kind of
Johnny Rotten type punk (ie High Modernist,
though not, interestingly for the great
20th century translator, Poundian) hatred
of the past, and puerile yaa boo sucks to
the repressed patricians who need to lighten
up (or as Barrett Watten is reported, not much
less puerilely to have said at New Hampshire,
about Eliot) or get more sex, without fully
addressing one's envy, one's desire to have
the same (actually skilfully & heroically,
sometimes, achieved) poetic appeal?
6) And what kind of language permission is
there, esp for an experimental poet, to use
more politically incorrect diction and old-fashioned
"patriarchal" wistful lyrical cadences, under the
guise of doing it only ironically?
7) Can the pure homophonic pleasure, of attempting
to produce a similar sound and surface to one's
original, help one to do some translation which
incorporates a good homophonic ear but also
seems to respect the author and the author's
content? This seems to be to what Derrida does
when he writes through (and in imitation of,
but also going off at lateral tangents to)
Ponge, Genet, Heidegger, Hegel etc?
I haven't seen too many examples of 1, 2 or 7.
Ira Lightman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:02:03 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
I write in a state of exhaustion & jetlag, so forgive me. New Hampshire was
quite overwhelming, and I share the sense of excitement in Loss Glazier's and
Bill Luoma's posts.
In reply to Marjorie, with the greatest respect to her and her critical kindred
(and I was very pleased to meet her for the first time -- her energy & erudition
reminded me somewhat of the late Eric Mottram, whose irascible shade I felt
hovered over New Hampshire like that hurricane that never arrived):
I was glad to be part of an event in the academy in which poets prevailed.
Speaking for myself, I would not have been able to attend if I hadn't had
financial assistance from the conference -- thanks, Romana. It was right that
poets without access to the institutional support of the academy should have
been helped in this way, and that they were the focus of the event (embarrassing
as those pics in the brochure were!). I too was sorry that Philip Mead's
excellent paper on the Australian scene provoked no discussion, but perhaps this
was not unconnected with the fact that there were no Australian poets present,
so it was decontextualised.
I think some of Marjorie's points are answered quite well by Robert Archambeau,
so I won't take any more space here. My only beef about the panel sessions was
that people tended to turn up to those panels addressing subjects they already
knew, rather than seeking out, um, alternatives. (I am amazed that anyone at all
turned up at 8.30 in the morning to my own talk on British small presses, but
disappointed they were mostly Brits who knew it all backwards anyway.)
Revelations for me (here I disregard the British contingent, and others whose
acts I already know & love): Lisa Robertson's fierce intellectual girlishness,
Leslie Scalapino's spine-chillingly wonderful voice, Rae Armantrout's humour,
Abigail Child (including such of her films I managed to catch), Christian Bok's
virtuoso vocals. There was an unfortunate sense that the afternoon readings were
second-billing to the evenings, and I wish I'd caught more than the last five
minutes of Jeff Derksen; I also enjoyed Lee Ann Brown, Peter Gizzi, Deanna
Ferguson, Juliana Spahr and Chris Stroffolino, among others.
The strong showing by women poets and critics has been mentioned. Good to see an
Irish contingent, and Maurice Scully in particular was as great as always, but
the older Irishmen seemed strangely out of place here.
I'm sad it's all over, looking forward to the book and the video, a little more
hopeful that national barriers are coming down. The difficulties and
shortcomings are hugely outweighed by the thanks we owe Romana Huk for this
extraordinary thing happening at all.
Ken Edwards
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:25:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Ross <jross@TMN.COM>
Subject: Re: New from Buck Downs Books
In-Reply-To: <199607250233.CAA05667@pipe4.ny1.usa.pipeline.com>
A Must Have . .
Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner
Poems by Mark Wallace
Prints by Lawley Paisley-Jones
Orders to: Buck Downs Books
P.O. Box 50376
Washington, D.C. 20091
($9.00)
"The road to wisdom / has lots of stores and restaurants"
Mark Wallace's wonderfully sharp, self reflexive, and darkly
humorous sonnets are wisdom teeth stolen from the golden mouths of
metaphysical husksters, penny-a-line journalists, late 20th century
loners, liars, and poetic hit-men. Death and the double keep Wallace
company on his forays into the tumultuous twister of the American psyche.
Whether playing a ghostly stranger from a Burrough's cut-up or a Kafkasque
desk clerk "chopping off fingers and facts," Wallace is always the witty,
wandering versifier behind the dry jibe and existential stool. His poems
and essays have played a major role in helping to define what has become
post "language" poetry.
-Charles Borkhuis
In this new collection of poems, Mark Wallace shows that the
obstensible strictures of the sonnet form can be liberating, can be an
enabling constraint allowing the thought to branch and scan. A distinct
sensiblity emerges here, one that is preoccupied with a past that
interweaves with the inexplicable details of daily living, and which
struggles with the effort to establish human connection against the odds
of indifference and unthinking reflex. Rounding out the words are Lawley
Paisley-Jones's highly evocative digitized images.
-Daniel Barbiero
Mark Wallace creates a poetics of paradoxes. The reader is
stunned by the sheer intelligence of it, yet there is warmth and an almost
frightening vulnerability. Mark Wallace is a visionary who refuses to
deny what he sees. His poems are sensitive and important.
-Susan Smith Nash
from: Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner
$1.54
Poetry doesn't care who loves it
warehouses howl of debris, random fetters
of work, business seizes ground
Who could possibly be superior
when countries are filled with all they don't know
Whoever comes forward to take the mantle
in the history of kings is a fool and I hate them
Stand me in my house
Stun me to know where art is a prison
A graver stain is in the blood
then who will be the next and latest greatest thing
I'll drink to complaint and go on plying
trade turned to a wing, above this boat,
to fly so not to float
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:26:26 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Keith Tuma <KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:02:03 EDT from
<100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Still too sleep-deprived to wash off the gallon of coffee I just poured over
my head, so a longer post will have to wait, if it's forthcoming at all, but
here's a few brief remarks regarding NH:
1) You were there (or weren't) the day that "language poetry" died its most
public death. But it was already dead. Now that Frankenstein has been put to
rest, the question is whenceforth,and I expect that "language poets" will--as
they have begun to--provide SOME of the most provocative suggestions and
examples.
2) Marjorie Perloff has been slugging it out on behalf of SOME of the most
vital work (in the US) for years in the crucial site (cf. my conference
remarks) of the academy. She was the only academic critic of her gerneration
at the conference and deserved more time. Money is another matter: Mills
and Catherine Walsh both work part-time in Dublin. Etc. etc.
3) American self-absorption and provincialism has been and is a problem (cf.
my conference remarks). But anti-american sentiments have been (and are) a
problem too. All of these things have a history: "americanocentrism" (what
a word) is an abstraction. The whence now question involves a thinking-through
of the problems of distribution. Allen Fisher, cris cheek, Peter Middleton,
Trevor Joyce, Alan Golding, and the zombie now typing had hoped to initiate
a public discussion of possible SOLUTIONS to these but the crush of events
prevented it. This here little list might take up such a discussion. Or it
can whine about this and that.
4) Everybody (I hope) knows we have to rethink "alternative" with more
attention to ethnic, regional, class, and racial particularities. But we also
have to reconsider its value in group formation (cf Peter Middleton), audience-
building and poetic practice (cf. Perelman), and political praxis (cf. Watten).
Charles Simic was at several of the readings. Tapes should be sold cheap to
Helen Vendler, who has now (almost I'm told) managed to acknowledge Mina Loy.
5) Re #3 above: not only distribution but critical and institutional practice
vis-a-vis poetry and poetics.
6) Open-panel discussions with poets and critics, more public space, mats for
free-style wrestling. But Romana Huk deserves a medal, if she hasn't already
won one in long-distance running.
7) More coffee please and some of those sour grapes. Numbers 8-1997
forthcoming asap. Hello again Saddam!
Keith Tuma
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:57:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: my two senses
i appreciate susan schultz's comments. even tho i wasn't there an NH, the
matters she brings up are ones that are not limited to that conference but
extend to this "scene" in which i've found myself a happy and (as far as i can
tell) respected player (i never thot i'd be here; it's been wonderful to have
interlocutors). don't get me wrong, i enjoy the list, the scene, the folks. but
we're not as eclectic as i'd like us to be; not as inclusive (and i don't mean
that in the grande-geste patronizing piety of much "multiculturalism") etc
etc...well y'all know what i mean, i won't go on and on...just came back from sf
it was grand so maybe i shd lay low a coupla daze before blasting back onto the
list; saw dbkk, steve carll, charles smith (thanks for coming all that way,
charles), norma cole, mpalmer, kush, whom i haven't seen since shortly after
kaufman's death, jay schwarz (are you on yet jay?), some stein fans i didn't
know, beverley dahlen bob gluck mostly folks i was meeting for the first time.
anyway, it was fun and so i shdn't come back blasting off. bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:23:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian McHale <BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
In-Reply-To: Message of 09/04/96 at 09:26:26 from KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU
More New Hampshire post-mortem:
I don't think I share Marjorie's sense of grievance at critics being treated
like second-class citizens at "AA." Frankly I was happy enough to hear from
the poets twice over; their talks & readings were information-rich even when
they didn't succeed particularly well. But I second Marjorie's complaint about
the lack of discussion-time. Not only did good papers not get the responses
they'd earned, but also people didn't get called often enough on statements
they ought to have been called on.
An example: at least twice, speakers casually knocked ethnopoetics, & there was
no opportunity to demand that they explain/justify themselves. Well, we all
know that ethnopoetics was benighted -- racist -- neocolonialist -- primitivist
-- don't we? It sure is lucky that we're enlightened now .... I find it amaz-
ing that with all the constant chatter about historicizing this & historicizing
that we're (first-person plural to spread the blame around) still ready & will-
ing to apply present standards a-historically to past moments. (Retrosepctive
self-righteousness is one of my favorite attitudes.)
Not that we shoudn't judge the past. But a little fairness, please: remember
that the ethnopoetics project changed over time, & that its practitioners cor-
rected or repudiated earlier missteps; remember how valuable the whole project
was in expanding our collective sense of what "poetry" could be, of what "con-
temporary" could mean, etc. In short: without the contribution of ethnopoetics
(among many other things) we wouldn't be in the position now to criticize retro
spectively the benighted neocolonialism, primitivism, etc. of ethnopoetics.Pity
the poor ladder: folks use it to climb, then just kick it away.... End of ser-
mon.
Apart from that, "AA" was a gas. All honor to Romana Huk.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:42:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: Sun&Moon
Our E-mail address is djmess@sunmoon.com
Our website, from which you can also E-mail us is:
htt;://www.sunmoon.com
At 05:33 PM 9/4/96 +1200, you wrote:
>Sorry to ask this over the list.
>
>Could someone Sun & Moon email me, i have lost the address & need to discuss
>an account.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dan Salmon.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:52:36 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: william marsh <wmarsh@NUNIC.NU.EDU>
Subject: Re: translations/transcriptions
For some of the reasons addressed here, i've often considered
"transcription" a better term for this practice -- especially in the musical
sense of *an arrangement for a different instrument* -- but also perhaps as
a phonetic transcription, in which English serves as the "phonetic alphabet"
into which the original is transcribed.
bmarsh
At 10:41 AM 9/4/96 BST, you wrote:
>I just wanted to address the word "translation"
>in this phrase "homophonic translations":
>
>1) Is there an attempt to bring in an idiom
>that brings over the author translated; ie what
>that author might have done in our
>language environments and culture environments?
>
>2) Is there an attempt to bring in a
>(translated) author whose presence in modern
>idiom is rebarbative, disruptive,
>*not* hip and modern, as a corrective to
>modern idiom, eg T.S. Eliot?
>
>3) Is homophonic translation an excuse for
>a poet with a rampant ego (like Zukofsky -
>see Mary Oppen's memoir in her Meaning A Life)
>to riff off the original, perhaps as if thus
>an equal, without actually measuring up?
>Does it take some of the reflected glory
>of say Catullus, the Establishment glow?
>
>3-B) If it is "play", when we play as adults
>shouldn't it be different from playing as a
>child - since we cannot pretend to a child's
>lack of understanding of ramifications,
>except as a forcefully asserted imitation
>child persona? Whose play is that? How
>enjoyable for those others in one's circle?
>
>4) How often is homophonic translation what it
>might say it's trying to be: a more modest
>attempt to enter the cultural negotiation
>between readers in an Establishment and writers
>who have been canonised into an Establishment?
>Who do not necessarily belong there and/or are
>not particularly there for themselves but
>actually as a culturally representative
>lab specimen in a lab which neither understands
>the culture nor "its" "specimens"?
>
>5) How often is such translation a kind of
>Johnny Rotten type punk (ie High Modernist,
>though not, interestingly for the great
>20th century translator, Poundian) hatred
>of the past, and puerile yaa boo sucks to
>the repressed patricians who need to lighten
>up (or as Barrett Watten is reported, not much
>less puerilely to have said at New Hampshire,
>about Eliot) or get more sex, without fully
>addressing one's envy, one's desire to have
>the same (actually skilfully & heroically,
>sometimes, achieved) poetic appeal?
>
>6) And what kind of language permission is
>there, esp for an experimental poet, to use
>more politically incorrect diction and old-fashioned
>"patriarchal" wistful lyrical cadences, under the
>guise of doing it only ironically?
>
>7) Can the pure homophonic pleasure, of attempting
>to produce a similar sound and surface to one's
>original, help one to do some translation which
>incorporates a good homophonic ear but also
>seems to respect the author and the author's
>content? This seems to be to what Derrida does
>when he writes through (and in imitation of,
>but also going off at lateral tangents to)
>Ponge, Genet, Heidegger, Hegel etc?
>
>
>I haven't seen too many examples of 1, 2 or 7.
>
>
>
>Ira Lightman
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:02:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: pasta point of no return
Dear Ms. Loden and others:
My lawyers have counselled me to say that I am not responsible
for any cyber replicas bearing my features and claiming to be me.
Although I did participate in early stages of the CIA cloning project, I
quickly saw that the goals of the program were not, in fact, to make me
more available, but instead to undermine my public image as a wearer of
only the finest pastas.
Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this
communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming
to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take
their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts
at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project.
BEWARE ALL CLONES!
Sincerely,
Mark Wallace (as represented by Reznikoff and Stephens)
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| |
| mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun |
| to go to extremes" |
| GWU: |
| http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw |
| EPC: |
| http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace |
|____________________________________________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:14:25 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference
In-Reply-To: <960903225141_300792375@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Hi all--
I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries
conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out
there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help
(posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!!
Thanks.
Julie Schmid
University of Iowa
jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:48:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jean Crown <kcrown@RCI.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference
In-Reply-To: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU> "Re: query re.
public poetry conference" (Sep 4, 3:14pm)
Hi Julie:
"Poetry and the Public Sphere," a conference on contemporary poetry,
will take place next April 24-27 at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ.
(I just received your letter and was about to reply when I got your incoming
poetics message). The interdisciplinary conference aims to provide new
understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The conference
will feature poetry readings and performances and panel presentations by a wide
range of poets, scholars, and activists, including Adrienne Rich, Miguel
Algarin, and Robert Hass. Although not named here, many other poets and
scholars will be invited. The planning is in its final stages and a Call for
Papers listing participants will go out in the next few weeks. We invite paper
proposals on topics including but not limited to the following:
poetry and social movements politics of form
African American poetry poetry and public sphere theory
poetry and popular culture feminist poetry
poetics of performance poetry poetry as witness
Native American poetry poetry and identity politics
global poetries Asian American poetry
contemporary poetry cultures poetry slams
Latino/a poetry poetry and/as history
spoken word events poetry and AIDS
rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing
In the meantime, you may send detailed two-page paper proposals by November
1, 1996 to:
Harriet Davidson
Associate Professor of English
Director of Women's Studies
P.O. Box 5054
Rutgers University--New Brunswick
New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054
You may send inquiries to the conference coordinators: Kathleen Crown
(kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) and Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu).
This is a very preliminary announcement; I will send a more detailed
announcement to the Poetics List very soon.
All best, Kathleen Crown
PS: We are following the discussion of the New Hampshire conference as we plan
ours--thanks to those who provided reports on the happenings.
On Sep 4, 3:14pm, Julie Marie Schmid wrote:
> Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference
> Hi all--
>
> I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries
> conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out
> there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help
> (posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!!
>
> Thanks.
>
> Julie Schmid
> University of Iowa
> jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
>-- End of excerpt from Julie Marie Schmid
--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:41:38 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference
yeah, contact kathleen crown, a grad student at rutgers english dept, or elliott
katz, also a gr-stud same dept.
bests, maria
In message <Pine.A32.3.91.960904150947.119212A-100000@green.weeg.uiowa.edu> UB
Poetics discussion group writes:
> Hi all--
>
> I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries
> conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out
> there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help
> (posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!!
>
> Thanks.
>
> Julie Schmid
> University of Iowa
> jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:43:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: fwd
From: Center for Advanced Feminist Studies <cafs@tc.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:42:18 -0500
To: Multiple recipients of list CAFS-F2 <cafs-f2@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: New Listserv
Subject: A New Electronic Discussion List on European Women's Stu
From: ezekiel@univ-paris12.fr (Judith Ezekiel)
We are happy to announce the launch of a new electronic discussion
list: WISE-L. WISE-L is a list for all practitioners of women's studies:
teachers, students, scholars, writers, administrators, activists, etc.. It
is a forum for information on research projects, funding sources,
fellowships, job openings, conferences, calls for papers, teaching methods,
course syllabi, useful texts, bibliographies, student and staff exchanges,
women's studies program development, European or national policy issues,
and political and theoretical debates concerning women's studies. We will
try to conduct discussions in several languages.
The list is sponsored by WISE, a European feminist studies organization
founded in 1990. WISE seeks to promote feminist critiques of knowledge, and
support practices and research which will improve the quality of women's
lives. WISE is grounded in grass-roots women's studies organizations
throughout Europe.
To "subscribe," send the following message by email to
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.FUNET.FI:
SUB WISE-L Your Name (e.g., SUB WISE-L Jane Smith).
You will receive an automated reply, asking you to confirm your request.
Just reply with the word OK in the body of your message. You will also
receive a User's Guide with more information on the list.
Regards,
Judith Ezekiel and Eva Isaksson, for WISE
Karen Moon, Administrative Aide
Center for Advanced Feminist Studies, University of MN
496 Ford Hall/224 Church St. SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
phone: (612) 624-6310
fax: (612) 624-3573
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:21:11 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: MB: Levinas Center]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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This may be of interest to some po-listies -- Pierre
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Reply-To: blanchot@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
X-Status:
>To: levinas@freelance.com
>From: racohen@email.uncc.edu (Richard Cohen)
>Subject: Levinas Center
>Cc: pomo@jtsa.edu
>
>Announcement (9/4/96): LEVINAS CENTER at UNCC
> I am in the process of establishing a Levinas Center located at the
Atkins Library (currently undergoing a 3 year, $23,000,000 expansion) of the
University of North Carolina at Charlotte (UNCC). The Levinas Center is
intended as an international research facility whose object is to facilitate
scholarly research into the philosophy of Emmanuel Levinas (1906-1995).
Levinas's publications, writings about Levinas (books, dissertations,
articles), and revevant audio and video tapes, will be located at one site,
catalogued, and made available to scholars and interested individuals.
Email, fax, and a website will make this catalogue and information available
to the worldwide scholarly community. The Center would also serve to
disseminate information regarding future papers and conferences on Levinas.
In addition, the Levinas family heirs (the son, Michael Levinas, and the
daughter, Simone Hansel) have been contacted and a request has been made to
receive copies of all unpublished manuscripts, papers, lecture notes, and
letters of the late Professor Emmanuel Levinas.
> Request: If you have relevant documents -- books, dissertations,
articles, lecture notes, videos, cassette tapes, correspondence -- and
would like to make a donation to the Levinas Center, please send to: Levinas
Center, c/o Richard A. Cohen, UNCC - Religious Studies, 9201 University
City Blvd., Charlotte, NC 28223-0001. PLEASE POST THIS ANNOUNCEMENT
>
--------------6F6444B749E9--
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:33:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: critics and poets
Dear Professor Perloff:
Pehaps Alan Golding is just wrong. I prefer George Steiner myself:
"The Byzantine dominion of secondary and parasitic discourse
over immediacy, of the critical over the creative, is itself a
symptom. An anxious desire for interposition, for
explicative-evaluative mediation between ourselves and the
primary, permeates our condition. . . . We seek immunities of
indirection. In the agency of the critic, reviewer or mandarin
commentator, we welcome those who can domesticate, who can
secularize the mystery and summons of creation." (_Real
Presences_, 38-39)
He goes on to call the "claim to theory in the humanities as
impatience sytematized" (86). Marvelous!
Jeez. One little event where the poets actually get more time than the
critics, and the critics go bonkers.
Quel dommage,
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:40:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Roddy Slyme is retiring
George Bowering wrote:
> I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I
> might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her
> eyes turned up when she showed it to me.
Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to
complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be
more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a)
disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however,
wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time.
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:45:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roddy Slyme is retiring
if the posts below signal the end of a poetricks thread, i'd like to thank all
participants for many chuckles, and to apologize to anyone out there who may
feel that my chuckles were had at his or her expense.--bests, md
In message <322ECA5B.5F24@concentric.net> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> George Bowering wrote:
>
> > I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I
> > might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her
> > eyes turned up when she showed it to me.
>
>
> Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to
> complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be
> more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a)
> disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however,
> wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time.
>
>
> Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
boughn writes:
> Dear Professor Perloff:
>
> Pehaps Alan Golding is just wrong. I prefer George Steiner myself:
>
> "The Byzantine dominion of secondary and parasitic discourse
> over immediacy, of the critical over the creative, is itself a
> symptom. An anxious desire for interposition, for
> explicative-evaluative mediation between ourselves and the
> primary, permeates our condition. . . . We seek immunities of
> indirection. In the agency of the critic, reviewer or mandarin
> commentator, we welcome those who can domesticate, who can
> secularize the mystery and summons of creation." (_Real
> Presences_, 38-39)
>
> He goes on to call the "claim to theory in the humanities as
> impatience sytematized" (86). Marvelous!
>
> Jeez. One little event where the poets actually get more time than the
> critics, and the critics go bonkers.
>
> Quel dommage,
> Mike
> mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
now just one minute. i'm aware that poets are not given their due in the
academy (unless they're dead, white, male and British, no kidding even in 1996);
i'm aware that writers not connected w the academy struggle like hell, unless
they're connected w the corporate world, etc etc. i'm glad to see poet honored.
HOWEVER! george steiner is a critic (duh...), one of those whose pomposity gave
the trade a bad name. part of these critics' agenda is/was to revere the dead
white british male poets and trash not critics like themselves but those like
the recent continental philosophers who have sought to break down the artificial
barriers between critical and poetic discourse. i've been troubled before on
this list by discussions of critics "versus" poets. many of us critics are
poets as well; we're just shy about it. or, as i describe myself, a poet
manquee. sometimes i'm embarrassed when a POET at a conference asks, so, maria,
do you write poetry as well? i feel that my credibility is on the line, and if
i answer in the negative i drop a coupla notches; at the same time if i answer
in the affirmative i feel dishonest because i haven't published, or i don't
write what others consider "poetry" (even in as enlightened a crowd as
poetricks, there seems to be a taken-for-granted difference, if not in the
discourses themselves, in those who practice them). i have no problem w/ a
conference that highlights poets, but let's not let this conversation devolve
into george steiner. or, while we're at it, why not trot out matthew arnold
saying that anyone w/ a last name like "bugg" or "jones" can't write decent
poetry? or f.r.leavis and queenie leavis singing the praises of manly vigorous
crisp prose? mdamon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:10:50 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500 from
<damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500 maria damon said:
>discourses themselves, in those who practice them). i have no problem w/ a
>conference that highlights poets, but let's not let this conversation devolve
>into george steiner. or, while we're at it, why not trot out matthew arnold
>saying that anyone w/ a last name like "bugg" or "jones" can't write decent
>crisp prose? mdamon
Maria,
So G. Steiner is on the other side of an issue (the merger or disjunction
of poetry & criticism) from you. How have you addressed the actual statement
Mike Boughn quoted, besides just "trashing" his "name" in exactly the same
way you say he & Arnold trash others? The shared anxieties, sufferings,
injustices, blah blah that both poets & critics must carry, the fact that
you write poetry too or poet writes criticism, don't really counter what
Steiner is saying either. I think some friction over this issue is natural
at such a conference because poetry & criticism are not like two
complementary academic disciplines. The academy studies a "field"
of interest. How many anthropology conferences bring along the
subjects of their study to make addresses? How many archaeology
conferences bring along their mummies? But poets talk back.
It's a weird situation, especially since there's so much
straddling & mutual interest. TS Eliot was smart to confine his
critical work for the most part to poets dead 300 yrs [beep:
provocation: beep] - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:00:38 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bob Gale <london@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Dead Poets' Society
For those of you in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, the Cacophony Chorus
presents the DEAD POETS' SOCIETY, Sept 11, 8:00 pm, at the Bryant-Lake
Bowl.
This adventurous group of local poets is dedicated to bringing the canon of
great literature to life for a new generation. With works ranging from
Sappho to Shakespeare, the DEAD POETS' SOCIETY is not your standard
literary reading. Offering standard poetry presentations of to musical funk
interpretations, the evening promises to be lively and enlightening.
The DEAD POETS' SOCIETY is hosted by SHOUT! editor, Bob Gale, and features
artists Lily Baber, Juin Charnell, Adrian Jackson, Yolanda Johnson, Elise
Matthesen, Cliff Mayhood, Joy Mincy Powell, Jovelyn Richards, Blake
Seboldt, and Darin Smith. The Bryant-Lake Bowl is located at 810 West Lake
Street, in South Minneapolis. Theater doors open at 7:00 p.m. for diner
seating, with show time at 8:00 p.m. Tickets are $6.00. Reservations can be
made by calling (612) 825-8949.
The Cacophony Chorus is an ongoing performance series dedicated to
highlighting the variety and vibrancy of spoken word talent. For further
information, please email london@spoken.com
\\ The Spoken Word Universe: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\
\\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\
\\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\
\\ london@spoken.com http://www.spoken.com \\
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:21:33 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: critics and poets...
wish i could make it to one of these conferences i keep hearing about!...
poets vs. critics: sounds like the headline i saw the other night on---was
it cnn?---"showdown with saddam"...
ok, ok... i wish we could find a way to talk about what it is we expect
from poetry as opposed to criticism (mike's quotes from steiner along these
lines)... specifically i'd be interested in hearing more about how we come
to understand and address the underlying categories... i.e., "poetic,"
("creative"?) and "critical"... or should that conjunction have been,
again, "vs."?...
that was a rhetorical question... clearly there is room for overlap,
clearly the critical is creative, and just as clearly (though not as
generally acknowledged in many if not most academic circles) the creative
is critical... i think the confusion is owing to institutional and
situational realities, not anthropological or left-right hemispherical
ones...
poetry and criticism ARE different at the level of expectation, at the
level of how some 'we' expects to be affected (and effected, both writer-
and reader-wise)... but the discursive distinctions that emerge, no matter
how historically or demographically determinate, in no way correspond
intrinsically to "poetry" or to "criticism"...
it's probably a safe bet that most of us don't generally read a piece of
criticism expecting a few laughs [well, mebbe a very few... ha]... and that
most of us don't generally read a book of poetry expecting to learn all
about the ins and outs of buoyant forces [a-ha]... yes, at some level it's
the explanatory vs. the expressive stance that designates the differences
at work here... but at the level of cultural work, there's no reason in the
world why poetry can't be as informative as criticism, or why criticism
can't be as evocative as poetry... though there are many reasons this may
not be so for so many, these reasons have as much to do with interpretive
leanings as with authorial motivations... i can at least imagine a public
for whom poetry would be valued in everyday terms much as a bread recipe,
or a public for whom criticism would be regarded as a vital realm of
experience (apologies for these rather reductive analogues)... and i can
imagine a public for whom poetry and criticism are expected to operate,
however they do so, in the same place at the same time...
which suggests a more fully hybridized understanding not only of process
and product, but of reception, much as the emergence of emedia against a
backdrop of print practices opens up formal-material *and* audience
possibilities... one way to go with such considerations would be to ask
what the apparent aversion [gasp] to media/genre mixing in some
quarters---or in other quarters, the intervention-less ease [sigh] with
which many do so---tells us about the specifically social underpinnings of
our aesthetic choices/constraints... i mean 'social' in terms of the sorts
of publics for whom such choices/constraints have value... e.g., i keep
asking myself where i stand on this question of performance poetry, whence
my occasional resistance to same, etc....
surely there are more possibilities available than are... currently
available... i guess i'd like to see a more openly creative critical
forum---among critics---and a more widespread critical engagement among,
say, poets and fiction writers... and i suspect the how's of enactment are
far more multivariate than most are led to believe, and i'd like to think
that the tags 'poet' and 'critic' will continue to be useful insofar as
they designate the primary (sets of) effects we wish to achieve---in
ourselves as well as others (if you don't like "effects" that's ok too)...
and sure, this has ultimately all to do with the various how's of the
various what's we value... i don't expect, mself, the current distinctions
twixt poetry and criticism to evaporate overnight, and i'm not sure i'd
want them to disappear entirely (i'm not sure what it would mean to have no
grain to work against)... but i'm quite certain we need to open up more
space (publishing space included) for pushing those envelopes, for mixing
it up much more than we have thus far...
in any case, trying to alter the expectations of poets OR critics, as many
of you who've tried are no doubt aware, is and will continue to be none too
easy, simply b/c we seem to be such creatures of habit...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:29:28 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
gould writes:
How many anthropology conferences bring along the
subjects of their study to make addresses?
more and more. but they try not to do it like, "bringing them along" --rather
to present equal hearings.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:51:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: nice critics and poets
apparently some _like_ to read and write-- but doesn't all this attention
to the issue of genre- hoppers/privilegers make you wonder what is not
being talked about-- which might be the growing (and predictable)
discontent? (declare victory and leave) or rather it's not the social
blurring (nationalism?) of critics/poets but among the _writers_ along the
axis of politico-aesthetic affiliations? leading towards the close bracket?
beg pardon? talking is nice, talking about is nice, talking about about is
nice, no vacancy? circular drive? J
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:48:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: <322eeb2819c7004@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Sep 5,
96 10:00:57 am
Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now,
if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek
without a paddle?
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:46:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: critics and poets -Reply
let us not forget: critics are readers, first of all. we need all we can get.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:12:31 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: critics & poets
To visit dilapidated zoos, to sit down and read,
to glance up through the iron bars and write
something down about the weather or the sky
in a blistered notebook, undiscovered by critics
and unsought for by bored readers -
this is one of those poet-type things done by poets.
Eventually every reader finds twelve or thirteen poets
in a lifetime. It's not so easy to read,
unless you're one of those real readers
bitten by what someone could write -
usually it comes along thanks to some critics,
one of those people who'd rather go blind than look at the sky.
Only plein-air airplanes write on the sky.
Did you notice that? Maybe you're one of the "poets."
But if you're reading this, your probably a couple of critics.
They like to read.
Too bad most of them can't write.
They wish they could, often enough - they're wishful readers.
In the zoo, even some of the monkeys are readers.
But most of them just scramble around or screech at the sky.
Sit them down at a terminal and they'll learn how to write, I reckon.
There's probably already a group who call themselves poets -
the Simian Group (motto: "We Know How to Read.")
If they fuse all that with screeching, they'll make good critics.
The zoo is run by keepers - people who wish they were critics!
Can you believe it? And they're not even readers!
Though occasionally they burn newspapers. I read.
I saw. I conquered. The air, the plane, the bars, the sky...
They'd put them all behind bars, the poets
that is. Who they, anyway? I don't know - you write for a while.
YOU write.
Me, critic.
You, poets.
Here comes Tarzan, readers!
Out of the sky!
Bashing open the bars! (But can he read?)
If you read between the bars, you can also write.
The work's cut out for you, readers and critics!
The poet's gone to sleep, and the skywriting is - all sky.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
Mike Boughn wrote:
>Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now,
>if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek
>without a paddle?
Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing
cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
version of phantom pain.
Cheers,
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:02:01 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henryg <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400 from
<kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400 David Kellogg said:
>
>Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing
>cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
>version of phantom pain.
Trouble with this theory is, for "living poetry", culture is not capital.
Poetry is anti-cultural. Anti-literature. It's a form of rawness.
Culture is the continual coming to terms with poetry. Say what you
want about the poor suffering unknowns saved by the good old critic.
It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms.
Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital
britches)
Cheers,
Henry
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:12:45 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: EZLN on Red Alert (fwd)
for anyone following Chiapas. gab.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Andrew Flood <ANFLOOD@macollamh.ucd.ie>
To: anflood@macollamh.ucd.ie
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3102/
The communities of the EZLN have vote to break off talks
with the government as of September the 4 1996. At the
same time a month long military build-up in Chiapas and
the heightening in tensions cause by the wave of attacks
by the EPR in other areas of Mexico have led them to
belive the military may be about to launch an attack
on them. They have gone on Red Alert and are appealing
for national and international support.
More details including the communiques can be found in the
Red Alert section of the Irish Mexico Group web page at
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3102/
please forward this announcement as relevant
in solidarity
Andrew Flood
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
First I wrote:
>>Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing
>>cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
>>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
>>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
>>version of phantom pain.
And then Henry G. wrote:
>Trouble with this theory is, for "living poetry", culture is not capital.
>Poetry is anti-cultural. Anti-literature. It's a form of rawness.
>Culture is the continual coming to terms with poetry. Say what you
>want about the poor suffering unknowns saved by the good old critic.
>It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms.
>Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital
>britches)
Except for "real", of course. As compared to. . . artificial? I deny (1)
that some poets are more real poets than others, and (2) that most sentences
beginning "Poetry is [fill in the blank]" should be taken seriously.
As long as I'm waiting for hurricane Fran:
My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry
could get along fine without criticism. I thought that was an
oversimplification. I still think so, and I don't think the rhetoric of
authenticity ("real" poets) makes it any less so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:32:15 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Padmasambhava
Listor,
I am looking for the full quote which starts: "When the iron bird flies
and..." by one Padmasambhava, the Indian yogi who brought Buddhism to
Tibet in the eight century.
As it will be a few days before I can get to the library I was hoping
someone had more complete information. Any help would be appreciated.
Christopher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:20:45 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
it's the basic assumption i question.
md
In message <199609051748.NAA03324@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now,
> if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek
> without a paddle?
>
> Mike
> mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:43:32 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>David Kellogg wrote
"I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
>version of phantom pain."
i believe
this says far more about the
(slice of) soci
ety you wander Mr. Kel
log than it does about (any) poet
ry.
cf
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:44:04 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: critics and poets (disabuse onself of importance said the
flea as it consumed the dog)
COMPUTER HACKER SEVERELY BEATEN AFTER CRITICIZING PRISON CONDITIONS
TARGET OF CAMPAIGN BY U.S. SECRET SERVICE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
A convicted hacker, in prison for nothing more than possession of
electronic parts easily obtainable at any Radio Shack, has been
savagely beaten after being transferred to a maximum security prison
as punishment for speaking out publicly about prison conditions.
Ed Cummings, recently published in Wired and Internet Underground, as
well as a correspondent for WBAI-FM in New York and 2600 Magazine,
has been the focus of an increasingly ugly campaign of harrassment
and terror from the authorities. At the time of this writing, Cummings
is locked in the infectious diseases ward at Lehigh County prison in
Allentown, Pennsylvania, unable to obtain the proper medical treatment
for the severe injuries he has suffered.
The Ed Cummings case has been widely publicized in the computer hacker
community over the past 18 months. In March of 1995, in what can only
be described as a bizarre application of justice, Cummings (whose pen
name is "Bernie S.") was targetted and imprisoned by the United States
Secret Service for mere possession of technology that could be used to
make free phone calls. Although the prosecution agreed there was no
unauthorized access, no victims, no fraud, and no costs associated with
the case, Cummings was imprisoned under a little known attachment to the
Digital Telephony bill allowing individuals to be charged in this fashion.
Cummings was portrayed by the Secret Service as a potential terrorist
because of some of the books found in his library.
A year and a half later, Cummings is still in prison, despite the
fact that he became eligible for parole three months ago. But things have
now taken a sudden violent turn for the worse. As apparent retribution for
Cummings' continued outspokenness against the daily harrassment and
numerous injustices that he has faced, he was transferred on Friday
to Lehigh County Prison, a dangerous maximum security facility. Being
placed in this facility was in direct opposition to his sentencing
order. The reason given by the prison: "protective custody".
A day later, Cummings was nearly killed by a dangerous inmate for not
getting off the phone fast enough. By the time the prison guards stopped
the attack, Cummings had been kicked in the face so many times that he
lost his front teeth and had his jaw shattered. His arm, which he tried
to use to shield his face, was also severely injured. It is expected that
his mouth will be wired shut for up to three months. Effectively,
Cummings has now been silenced at last.
>From the start of this ordeal, Cummings has always maintained his
composure and confidence that one day the injustice of his
imprisonment will be realized. He was a weekly contributor to a
radio talk show in New York where he not only updated listeners on
his experiences, but answered their questions about technology.
People from as far away as Bosnia and China wrote to him, having
heard about his story over the Internet.
Now we are left to piece these events together and to find those
responsible for what are now criminal actions against him. We are
demanding answers to these questions: Why was Cummings transferred
for no apparent reason from a minimum security facility to a very
dangerous prison? Why has he been removed from the hospital immediately
after surgery and placed in the infectious diseases ward of the very
same prison, receiving barely any desperately needed medical
attention? Why was virtually every moment of Cummings' prison stay a
continuous episode of harrassment, where he was severely punished for
such crimes as receiving a fax (without his knowledge) or having too
much reading material? Why did the Secret Service do everything in
their power to ruin Ed Cummings' life?
Had these events occurred elsewhere in the world, we would be quick
to condemn them as barbaric and obscene. The fact that such things are
taking place in our own back yards should not blind us to the fact that
they are just as unacceptable.
For more information on protest plans, email protest@2600.com or call our
office at (516) 751-2600.
Complete details on this case can be found on the following
web site: http://www.2600.com.
9/4/96
UPDATE: 9/5/96
At around 10AM, we received a rather upbeat call from Ed. He's still feeling
pretty lousy, but he did speak to his lawyer this morning. Ken (lawyer)
called Judge Panella in Northampton County and also Dan Pollanski, the
District Attorney. They both agreed that there was no valid reason for Ed to
have been transferred to Lehigh County maximum facility and that a transfer
to a minimum security facility with good medical services should be sought.
The also concurred that Ed should not be sent back to Bucks County due to
the administrative treatment he received there.
The judge spent a good 30 minutes discussing this with Ken, which is
virtually unheard of. They discussed that Panella's sentencing had
specifically stated that Ed was to serve all of his sentence at Bucks
County, alluding to the fact that the BCCF administrators should never have
transferred him. Furthermore, the judge agreed that there was no basis
provided for the "protective custody" designation.
On an even more positive note, the judge and the DA were to discuss
revisiting Ed's sentence with Ken today. They both agreed that they had
expected Ed to serve his minimum sentence and be paroled after 6 months. We
will hear more about this around 6PM today.
This _could_ result in Ed's immediate release. A note of caution to you
optimists out there: several layers of administrative b.s. are in place to
assure that prisoners are not easily released (to prevent them from taking
advantage of family or political ties, etc.)
So, we were felling fairly upbeat about the whole situation...
At 12:30, Ed phoned me from yet another prison phone system (TeleLink). He
was transferred back to Northampton County Prison. As most of you will
remember, this prison was built in the 1800s and has horrible conditions
including roaches and rats.
Ed is now in the infectious disease medical unit there. There is not
*supposed* to be any smoking on this unit, but of course inmates do. Ed is
allergic to cigarette smoke. When he was last in this facility, he was very
ill with 104 fever and coughing up blood. I'm sure we can imagine how
difficult that type of coughing could get with Ed's jaw broken and wired shut.
The medical facility there is run by a private company (Correctional
Healtcare Solutions, 800-487-8995) who cuts costs
wherever possible, including neglecting to provide prescribed medications to
inmates. Ed was given a pillow, which seems like a bonus compared to the
Lehigh facilities.
Ed was woken up around 8am on 9/5 and moved to a new cell in the
infectious disease ward (he had been transferred yesterday as well). He also
got to see the Lehigh Prison doctor for the first time since his release
from the hospital. The doctor was concerned about continued pain Ed has in
his right temple and was to call the hospital to review the xrays for
possible fracture there. He was also going to prescribe a stronger
painkiller for Ed (currently on Tylenol 3 with Codeine). Ed is fairly sure
that he will have to start this process all over again with a doctor at
Northampton County, whenever one sees him.
The discharge unit at Lehigh County refused to allow Ed to take his legal
paperwork with him. His lawyer has phoned the discharge unit, who is now
"searching for the folders".
Ed still needs to get a soft toothbrush and a cover for his cast so he can
shower -- believe it or not, he hasn't been able to shower since last
THURSDAY; when they transferred him on Friday, he was in a holding cell for
about 10 hours and hadn't had a chance to shower before 10AM on Saturday.
You can just imagine his current condition, after losing a few pints of
blood and then having surgery...
We have no assurance that they will allow him to receive the package we're
sending 9/5 which includes these items. We tried getting a copy of his
medical release instructions to send along with the package, but the hospital
requires Ed to sign a release form before they'll provide the instructions
to anyone but Ed. The prison system, including medical facilities, seem to
feel no compulsion to follow the medical orders. Lehigh didn't provide him
with liquified food and didn't have a mortar/pestle to grind up his
medication and vitamins. Ed doesn't hold much hope that the Northampton
County facilities will be any better. He also hasn't had any ice on his
incisions since last night (more than 12 hours ago). If his arm swells under
the cast, his circulation could be cut off.
We've also just called the Lehigh County DA's office to find out what Ed has
to do to file criminal charges against the guy who beat him up (Michael
Williams). Apparently, no one from the police department has asked Ed if he
wants to file charges. No one took photographs of Ed's condition after the
beating. Ed has to ask for a special criminal complaint form from the prison
he's in. He'll do this today; he *has* to file the criminal complaint
against his assailant before he can file civil complaints against Bucks
County and Lehigh County prisons.
The only other decent news is that the 'new' prison phone system also seems
to allow 3 way calls. Ed hasn't had any of the weird number blocking
problems with this system, either.
If anyone can send him a money order for $10 or $15, that would also help -
he could then purchase soap, shampoo, paper, pen and stamps at the comissary.
He's now at Northampton County Correctional Facility
ATTN: Ed Cummings, M3
666 Walnut Street
Easton, PA 18042
For the record, the Warden at this facility is Terrence O'Connel
voice: 610.559.3228
fax: 610.252.4082
Looks like our protest may have to change sites to Northampton County.
******************************************************************************
These are the people responsible for keeping Ed Cummings imprisoned.
Name/Address Phone Fax
Bucks County Correctional Facility 215.325.3700 215.345.3940
1730 South Easton Road
Doylestown, PA
Director: Mr. Nesbitt (warden equivalent)
Chief: John Henderson (had Cummings thrown into maximum security
for receiving a fax from a reporter - later
told Cummings he had "no right" to speak
to the press)
Lehigh County Prison 610.820.3270
38 North Fourth Street
Allentown, PA 18103
Warden: Ed Sweeney 610.820.3133 610.820.3450
Haverford Township Police Department
John Morris 610.853.2400 610.853.1706
(original arresting officer who believed Cummings was involved
in a drug deal because he was observed selling electronic
components to a vehicle occupied by African Americans)
Northampton County Probation Department
Scott Hoke (parole officer) 610.559.7211 610.559.7218
(as Cummings' parole officer for a minor infraction years
earlier, Hoke had told Cummings that parole was a waste of
time for such a trivial offense. However, after being
interviewed by the Secret Service, Hoke did an about face
and began referring to Cummings as a very dangerous criminal
who needed to be in prison for a long time.)
Harrisburg Parole Office
Ralph Bigley 717.787.2563 717.772.3534
Mr. Bigelow 717.787.5699
Northampton County Courthouse (main) 610.559.3000
Judge Panella 610.515.0830 610.515.0832
US District Court, Philadelphia (main) 215.597.2995
601 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19106
Judge Marjorie Rendell 215.597.3015 215.580.2393
Judge Jay C. Waldman 215.597.9644 215.580.2155
Judge Charles B. Smith 215.597.0421 215.597.6125
Assistant U.S. Attorney
Anne Whatley Chain, Esq. 215.451.5282
615 Chestnut Street
Suite 1250
Philadelphia, PA 19106
Special Agent Thomas L. Varney
U.S. Secret Service (main) 215.597.0600 215.597.2435
Room 7236
Federal Building
600 Arch Street
Philadelphia, PA 19106
(Varney was the key factor in having Ed Cummings imprisoned
since March of 1995. It was he who convinced Det. John Morris
that Cummings' possession of electronic components and certain
books and magazines made him a danger to society. His testimony
stands out in its incredible assessment of Cummings as nothing
short of a terrorist and his ability, as a representative of
one of the nation's most powerful agencies, to convince others
in law enforcement that Cummings belongs in prison with the most
dangerous and most violent of criminals.)
***************
Every one of these people has the power to do something. Please contact
them and convince them to take an interest!
Pennsylvania Elected Officials
Governor:
Tom Ridge
(717) 787-5962
governor@state.pa.us
Senators:
Arlen Specter (R)
(202) 224-4254
senator_specter@specter.senate.gov
Rick Santorum (R)
(202) 224-6324
senator@santorum.senate.gov
Representatives:
1st District
Thomas Foglietta (D)
(202) 225-4731
2nd District
Chaka Fattah (D)
(202) 225-4001
3rd District
Robert Borski (D)
(202) 225-8251
4th District
Ron Klink (D)
(202) 225-2565
5th District
William Clinger (R)
(202) 225-5121
6th District
Tim Holden (D)
(202) 225-5546
7th District
Curt Weldon (R)
(202) 225-2011
curtpa7@hr.house.gov
8th District
James Greenwood (R)
(202) 225-4276
9th District
Bud Shuster (R)
(202) 225-2431
10th District
Joseph McDade (R)
(202) 225-3731
11th District
Paul Kanjorski (D)
(202) 225-6511
kanjo@hr.house.gov
12th District
John Murtha (D)
(202) 225-2065
murtha@hr.house.gov
13th District
Jon Fox (R)
(202) 225-6111
jonfox@hr.house.gov
14th District
William Coyne (D)
(202) 225-2301
15th District
Paul McHale (D)
(202) 225-6411
mchale@hr.house.gov
16th District
Robert Walker (R)
(202) 225-2411
pa16@hr.house.gov
17th District
George Gekas (R)
(202) 225-4315
18th District
Mike Doyle (D)
(202) 225-2135
19th District
Bill Goodling (R)
(202) 225-5836
20th District
Frank Mascara (D)
(202) 225-4665
21st District
Phil English (R)
(202) 225-5406
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:48:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: gould sestina -- critics and poets
what a lovely, graceful sestina -- i didn't even KNOW it was a sestina
until most of the way into the fourth stanza. when they're not working
you know at the second stanza becuase the end words are so glaring. the
play between the repeating words and the interwoven positions/concepts of
read, write, critic, writer, and poet was wonderful -- rminds one of the
possibilities and reasons why one would choose to write in sestina if it
weren't just a class assignment! and of course, what position is mr.
gould occupying here -- writer? poet? critic? reader? or....
i know, let's whale on THEORISTS for a while (gawd, come on, i'm just
kidding...)
e
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:57:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: poet-ics
mightn't an argument re poets/critics be "academic" given the
setting: a list based at a State University--
called "poetics" (poets+critics=poetics?)
"divide & conquer"?
"codependency"?
(note: this sent via a State University system despite the spray
paint stains on my hands . . .
"the writing is on the wall" and "the moving hand having writ,
moves on"?
"Who runs may read"--Gertrude Stein
"And read/where thou art"--Ronald Johnson
-dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:05:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: the object
>George Bowering wrote:
>
>> I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I
>> might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her
>> eyes turned up when she showed it to me.
>
>
>Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to
>complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be
>more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a)
>disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however,
>wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time.
But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy,
and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time
getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was
disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that
he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD.
George Bowering.
"the sculptor
2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf
Vancouver, B.C., sure knew
Canada V6M 1P4 his bones"
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:13:06 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>Mike Boughn wrote:
>
>>Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now,
>>if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek
>>without a paddle?
>
>Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing
>cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
>version of phantom pain.
>
>Cheers,
>David
David: was it not obvious to you that Mike was saying that?
George Bowering.
"the sculptor
2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf
Vancouver, B.C., sure knew
Canada V6M 1P4 his bones"
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:15:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry
>could get along fine without criticism.
No he didnt. He said that they need each other. Go and read what he said.
or asked.
George Bowering.
"the sculptor
2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf
Vancouver, B.C., sure knew
Canada V6M 1P4 his bones"
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:20:29 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
>3) American self-absorption and provincialism has been and is a problem (cf.
>my conference remarks). But anti-american sentiments have been (and are) a
>problem too. All of these things have a history: "americanocentrism" (what
>a word) is an abstraction.
Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word
"American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada.
George Bowering.
"the sculptor
2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf
Vancouver, B.C., sure knew
Canada V6M 1P4 his bones"
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:19:19 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>maria writes:
>>gould writes:
>>
>>How many anthropology conferences bring along the
>>subjects of their study to make addresses?
>more and more. but they try not to do it like,
>"bringing them along" --rather to present equal hearings.
frinstance, much of the current work in Mayan epigraphy is
now being done by Mayans, rather than gringos... it had
become a problem when folks realized the part of the
epigraphic project on glyphs included work on living Mayan
languages--so the "subject" was no longer just carvings on
rock, but living individuals & their culture...
hmmm... critical responses to texts as self-contained
artifacts, vs response to/among a language community...
sounds like a problem...
lbd
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:10:21 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
lbd rites:
hmmm... critical responses to texts as self-contained
artifacts, vs response to/among a language community...
sounds like a problem...
i rite:
this is an interesting way to articulate a difference in perspective. not so
much a "problem" as a difference to be registered; it's the latter situation,
"response to/among a language community," that i find compelling insofar as it
explores the cultural work a text or text/event performs...bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:29:12 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
>Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word
>"American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada.
Or perhaps between the North pole and the south pole????
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: <199609060407.AAA02575@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
To Michael Boughn et al.
I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. I was NOT setting up poets
versus critics in the way you imply. I think the poetry readings were
terrific. But why did all the poets give critical papers? Do the poets
have a special corner on criticism? Many were sophomoric, self-indulgent,
and just plain empty. I come back to my original question: who gets to
speak and why? I'm sorry to sound so Foucauldian but I've never seen the
issue so clearly represented as at the Assembling Alt. conference. For
example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen
Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now
suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there
would have been lots of objection. That's known as poetic license and
what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction
etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired
by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet"
decides to say is fine, thank you.
So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name)
announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh
really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul
Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand
corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it
gradly, it's evidently OK.
This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or
poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly
more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But
let's at least define our terms.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:05:18 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Marjorie & the poets
This sounds like Olson redux circa Berkeley discussed earlier last month.
Marjorie Perloff said
">Would critics have been allowed to spend their 20 minute "papers"
>schmoozing about this and that as some of the poets who gave papers did?"
In my experience it is a nice thing when critics are not given the time to
discuss their criticism in a public venue as more often than not the talk
turns exclusively away from the actual text which is supposed to be the
object of inquiry into a discussion of the wherefores and whatnots of crit
theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory. In my humble opinion
the venue for criticism which works best is the printed page. As opposed
to poetry which splurts in many directions. In my experience it is a rare
occasion when a paper is actually delivered to an audience which has access
to the text in question before, during, or after the paper. Any close
textual reading which does get done in these situations almost invariably
gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question and answer periods seem
to revolve around either issues not supported by the text and/or issues
completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or power of the
personalities involved in the setting.
Actually I would hold that critics are indeed second class citizens in that
the need to codify and "tame" produces an academy which is by and large
completely ignorant of, and indeed AfraiD of the "whole art" of poetry. A
Slap in the Face of Public Taste must happen over and over again for just
such reasons. When the critic and the poet become too comfortable with
each other the work has stopped. At this point they become accomodating to
each other and may even be seen writing jacket blurbs for each other.
A critic will say something like, "Milan Kundera is overrated, all he ever
writes about is sex anyway." and the poet will know that the only way to
say such a thing is through pose. Which is after all an important part of
poetry.
You have the Word and what follows is the word.
cf
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:20:46 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
>>Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word
>>"American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada.
>
>Or perhaps between the North pole and the south pole????
That is exactly who it does refer to in the languages of all the people in
all those countries, exept the US, who think just they are the Americans.
They even call their country "America". Why dont they just call it "The
World." Well, in a way they do: their professional sports playoffs always
end up in what they call the "World Championship".
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:40:12 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: critics and poets
"many of us critics are
poets as well; we're just shy about it. or, as i describe myself, a poet
manquee. sometimes i'm embarrassed when a POET at a conference asks, so, maria,
do you write poetry as well? i feel that my credibility is on the line, and if
i answer in the negative i drop a coupla notches; at the same time if i answer
in the affirmative i feel dishonest because i haven't published, or i don't
write what others consider "poetry" (even in as enlightened a crowd as
poetricks, there seems to be a taken-for-granted difference, if not in the
discourses themselves, in those who practice them)."
Maria: speaking as a white male British poet, not quite dead yet -- all of which
I apologise for --
I am grateful for the existence of people who take an interest in the kind of
poetry I write, without necessarily wanting to write it themselves (this tiny
band, which I call "the audience", includes such as Romana Huk, the organiser of
Assembling Alternatives). For one thing, it eliminates the suspicion of bad
faith that sometimes lingers ("I'm pretending to be interested in your poetry
because I hope you'll swell the crowd at my own reading, or buy my book, or
publish me"). Though I would still do the poetry even if there were no such
persons.
Ken Edwards
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:03:37 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: <199609052104.RAA04892@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg"
at Sep 5, 96 05:04:16 pm
> My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry
> could get along fine without criticism. I thought that was an
> oversimplification. I still think so, and I don't think the rhetoric of
> authenticity ("real" poets) makes it any less so.
David:
George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without
criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense
wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language.
Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are
interchangeable acts.
While it's true that if you are concerned not strictly with poetry,
but with other issues such as fame, notoriety, anthology spots,
academic positions, i.e. the business of poetry, then you can't do
without critics. But Henry's point is, believe it or not, a lot of
very fine poets could care less about that crap. Poetry is enough for
them and their small, local audiences. I'm not sure that what we're
calling criticism could ever be enough in that sense. But, hey, I
could be wrong about that. I've never been initiated into the inner
rites of criticism.
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:58:46 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: henry G <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400 from
<kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400 David Kellogg said:
>
>And then Henry G. wrote:
>>It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms.
>>Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital
>>britches)
>
>Except for "real", of course. As compared to. . . artificial? I deny (1)
>that some poets are more real poets than others, and (2) that most sentences
>beginning "Poetry is [fill in the blank]" should be taken seriously.
You're right, saying "real" this or real that isn't saying much. What
I meant by "real poets don't even know it" was that even poets, most of the
time, are not "in" poetry. In my experience, anyway, it's a change
of state, from mild to fairly drastic. It's a "fit". That's part of the
rawness, continually explained away by theory, culture, literature, various
echo chambers, choruses.
Secondly, I think sentences beginning "poetry is" are statistically
no more ridiculous than any member of the set of all sentence ever
written, lalla poohbah spingwah, nonetheless, etc. - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:08:30 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry G <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 from
<perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 Marjorie Perloff said:
>example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen
>Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now
>suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there
>would have been lots of objection.
Probably only from the other critics, though.
>what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction
>etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired
>by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet"
>decides to say is fine, thank you.
No, I think Lee Ann Brown probably thought it was a special OCCASION.
>So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name)
>announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh
>really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul
>Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand
>corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it
>gradly, it's evidently OK.
Good thing it wasn't a class! Gosh! Poor no-name Irish poet would
have taken the heat! What a spectacle he made of himself!
>
>This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or
>poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly
>more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But
>let's at least define our terms.
I think Dave Chirot made the most telling point on this whole question.
It's a foregone obvious conclusion poets & critics are allies. Critics
are readers with a voice, a mind, & power. Poets have power too, but
because it's a power they can't control, they're jealous for its
prerogatives. And it's not power in the socio-political sense
(that's where critics come in). Poets often badmouth critics because
they sense that critic's power is like a gun aimed blind. Touting
the mediocre for all the wrong reasons. Now I know there's Mr.
Bernstein & Silliman a-lurking out there, and many more, who've given
these matters a lot of delicate thought. But sometimes old sentences
can be silly too, as noted in previous post to Mr. Kellogg.
- Mr. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:19:09 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
ok: i continue to be puzzled by any and all assertions that lay claim not
only to what poetry or criticism is (for all time? in all places? for all
writers and readers?), but to how thence to distinguish twixt these
allegedly fixed domains...
it's not that i don't understand how my activity as a poet is often
experienced (by me) in ways that don't resemble (what i understand to be)
critics' activity (as critics... and yeah, i write what some folks might
call criticism too)... it's that this difference that i sense, when looked
at a bit more closely, is predicated on a particular (sub)set of practices
and beliefs, presumably shared with a particular group of people... many of
whom remain strictly fictive for me, or anonymous... meaning, that i have
every reason to believe that these practices and beliefs may change over
time and place and person, and that i have no reason not to believe that
there is the possibility---perhaps contested---for particular practices and
beliefs to overlap... that is, to be experienced as overlapping by some
particular group...
so you might say that i'm being a mite particular...
if you like: at any given moment i may be neither a poet nor a critic, or
i may be both---and i do not equivocate, and this is not merely academic...
joe
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:33:26 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>>David Kellogg wrote
>"I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is
>>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics
>>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own
>>version of phantom pain."
>
>i believe
>this says far more about the
> (slice of) soci
>ety you wander Mr. Kel
>log than it does about (any) poet
>ry.
>
>cf
Well let's unpack this statement and be less personal.
Experimental poetry has been written continuously for at least 100 years,
although critical theory seems to have caught up with it only fairly
recently.
I also find it interesting that folks who, as is said, "know theory," can
be ignorant of writing which situates itself squarely in the middle of this
theory, and in fact may not have the slightest clue how to read it. Not
being in an Eng. Dept. I don't know how common this situation is, but
suspect it is very common.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:23:55 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:19:09 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
No question that poetry & criticism overlap. A lot of poetry is a
criticism of past poetry. Look at Pope as prime example of poet-as-critic,
purely literary critic. And criticism makes use of poetic effects -
irony, paradox, structure, blah blah. Overlap, yes. But unless you're
going to deny that there is this general something called Poetry &
another called Criticism (which is clearly the game of recent times)
I think there are real distinctions. In essence, if not along the
edges. I guess a lot of people on the list would disagree. There
is only Writing. Fine, if that's your aim - Write it. In my own
case, I think, most of the time, when I hear a poem or write a poem
I'm aiming for something distinguishable from criticism or writing
per se. What are the distinguishable distinctions? 1. a different
approach to topic or subject-matter. 2. a more heightened sense of
what has gone before - in my OWN writing. 3. a desire to go beyond,
to excel - not just intellectually (as in a critical work) but in an
all around verbal construction project. - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500
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Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
really, this is almost touchingly silly. i've now seen messages scolding
critics for wandering in their analyses from "the actual text" they are
"supposed" to be discussing, for responding to another critic's grandiose
putdown of criticism on the basis that (I) wasn't dealing with the "actual"
quotation, for having "socio-political power" (ever heard of vaclav havel, if
we're going to talk about "actual" authors?)(what critics used to have that
poets didn't was academic positions; this has changed considerably); etc etc.
marjorie and i are, i think, of the mind that ("alternative", though sometimes
we differ on what constitutes alternative) poets and poetry shd receive more
attention in the academy; i at least am exploring the interstices between poetic
and critical discourse in my own writing practice, etc etc etc, lots of critics
are poets too but until recently haven't been able to "come out" as poets; many
poets are writing criticism... But more to the point, haven't we learned
anything from the last 30 years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize
"actual texts" as if they had no context? do we really still have to treat
authors as if they are not socially made, but spring from zeus's head fullblown,
with texts in turn springing fullblown from their precultural heads? to read
some of you, you'd think poets had no socius but operated in a cultural void,
prey to overwhelming forces that they do not understand, oracularly emitting the
Truth --sounds kinda...primitivistic, doesn't it? patronizing?
In message <POETICS%96090608294495@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 Marjorie Perloff said:
> >example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen
> >Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now
> >suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there
> >would have been lots of objection.
>
> Probably only from the other critics, though.
>
> >what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction
> >etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired
> >by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet"
> >decides to say is fine, thank you.
>
> No, I think Lee Ann Brown probably thought it was a special OCCASION.
>
> >So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name)
> >announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh
> >really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul
> >Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand
> >corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it
> >gradly, it's evidently OK.
>
> Good thing it wasn't a class! Gosh! Poor no-name Irish poet would
> have taken the heat! What a spectacle he made of himself!
> >
> >This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or
> >poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly
> >more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But
> >let's at least define our terms.
>
> I think Dave Chirot made the most telling point on this whole question.
> It's a foregone obvious conclusion poets & critics are allies. Critics
> are readers with a voice, a mind, & power. Poets have power too, but
> because it's a power they can't control, they're jealous for its
> prerogatives. And it's not power in the socio-political sense
> (that's where critics come in). Poets often badmouth critics because
> they sense that critic's power is like a gun aimed blind. Touting
> the mediocre for all the wrong reasons. Now I know there's Mr.
> Bernstein & Silliman a-lurking out there, and many more, who've given
> these matters a lot of delicate thought. But sometimes old sentences
> can be silly too, as noted in previous post to Mr. Kellogg.
> - Mr. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:19:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
hg writes:
That's part of the
rawness, continually explained away by theory, culture, literature, various
echo chambers, choruses.
i rite:
As a critic who values rawness but nonetheless sees "rawness" as socially
determined (i.e. we --trained critics and trained poets --find a power in
"rawness" that foregrounds our own trainedness, etc, we assign value to it
possibly different from how the "naive" artist wd understand his/her work,
etc)(i.e. i'm quite suspicious of my own attraction to what i perceive as
"rawness" and find ample room for self-critique w/in that phenomenon of
attraction) -- the best theory etc does not "explain away" anything but enriches
it, provides a stimulating intertext with its purported subject that then
becomes itself part of the discursive/cultural environment of the (pre-)text.
what do you think of steven caton's work? does he "explain away" the "mystery"
of yemeni poetry by showing how it operates as social practice? does philippe
sollere "explain away" writing and the experience of limits? do deleuze and
guattari, derrida and co "explain" anything "away?" often the complaint that i
hear is that they make things more mysterious! which of course, becomes another
way of putting down theory. does dick hebdige really "explain away" the mystery
of youth subcultural style? i don't think so. bests, md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:12:00 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500 from
<damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500 maria damon said:
>poets are writing criticism... But more to the point, haven't we learned
>anything from the last 30 years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize
>"actual texts" as if they had no context? do we really still have to treat
>authors as if they are not socially made, but spring from zeus's head
>fullblown,
>with texts in turn springing fullblown from their precultural heads? to read
>some of you, you'd think poets had no socius but operated in a cultural void,
>prey to overwhelming forces that they do not understand, oracularly emitting
>the
>Truth --sounds kinda...primitivistic, doesn't it? patronizing?
I think I provided a context for where I see poetry coming from, in a
sketchy way. Maybe not the context you're interested in. In fact,
it's probably the context that large edifices of theory have been trying
to close off for some time now. A context so overwhelmingly silly
it can never become "socially made". A scandal. Though I guess this too
becomes a "theme" for research. Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory
might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything.
- Henry Gould
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:28:18 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
boughn writes:
I've never been initiated into the inner
rites of criticism.
i rite: that could explain the misperceptions i've seen in this thread. believe
it or not, i've felt language-mystical raptures while riting whatever it is i
rite, which some here would call "criticism written in a poetic sort of prose."
many of the people you seem to be calling "critics" are happy if their books
sell 500 copies. many "critics" (who are they anyway? people who care about
poetry but don't publish their own?) don't write books; they teach instead. not
all critics are consumed with ambition. many belong to book-clubs and that's
their critical practice; or they read to their kids at night. etc. etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
henry, my reason for pointing to overlap is to suggest a more open, perhaps
even less confrontational approach to the substantive issue, which seems to
me to be one of---alas---territory (and how is one *not* to be
confrontational about territory?)... in essence the questions that have
been raised and answers that have been provoked, stemming from marjorie's
observations re the 'assembling alternatives' conference, have revolved
around the way a certain who who speaks (poet or critic) is greeted,
reception-wise... and i think this question of reception must be addressed
in terms less of formal differences and in terms more of perceived
social/community/venue power---advantage/privilege/entitlement...
hence i'm suggesting that there may be ways to reconceive this power, with
the hope of redistributing it in more equitable, workable terms...
which is not to deny the very real incidences (and places) where either
critical power per se or poetic power per se goes unchallenged or
unabated... i just don't understand, again, how (what i see as) this
question of institutional power resolves to intrinsic differences, formal
and otherwise, between 'poetry' and 'criticism,' and thence between poets
and critics... even though we might point, say, to poetic under and
over-privileging since the ancients, or critical limelighting today, it
ain't necessarily so that things have to be this way by virtue of the
categories "criticism" and "poetry"...
maybe it's just more apparent now than in some more stable pasts that these
categories are just that---categories...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:27:31 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>>My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry
>>could get along fine without criticism.
>
>No he didnt. He said that they need each other. Go and read what he said.
>or asked.
My mistake. It's what I get for jumping into the middle of a thread. If
that's the case, I withdraw my objection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:40:30 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
gould sez: There
is only Writing. Fine, if that's your aim - Write it.
thanks henry for this apt paraphrase of my subtext; i guess for my own creative
survival this is what works. if i think "now i'm writing CRITICISM"/"now i'm
writing POETRY" i can't write. and like most on this list, i suspect, i have
to write to survive. i would most definitely write if there were no audience.
but it's true, i wouldn't write "criticism." i'd write writing.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:42:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: socially constructed poets
earlier today I had the pleasure of encountering a socially
constructed poet:
a statue of Robert Burns
this on the way to preparations for Indian Summer Festival--a
native American celebration
which takes place near the Art Museum
which is in the same building as the War Memorial
--dbc
(not to be homophonically confused with debussy)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ira Lightman <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets
I just want to join in this discussion, like Maria
Damon and Marjorie Perloff, on the side of the
critic. It seems to me that there remains a strong
*fear* of critics among poets, at least this is
something I notice a lot in England; poets are
afraid to be seen to writing criticism themselves,
and I think this is not just because it's seen as
an impure or reductive act but because, as Ken Edwards
was saying, a lot of one's audience are other
poets. I agree with Ken that it's very nice to
have audience members who are just readers, just
keen on one's stuff, and that there are too many
times where, as Ken says, I poet come and see you
poet so you poet will come and see me poet. The
corollary for me, that Ken didn't mention, is that
this also means a lot of poets in the British
experimental scene live in glass houses and
everybody winces when anyone throws stones. Is
it the same in other POETICS members' nations?
I lament the lack of a journal and criticism
scene in the UK like that of Poetics Journal
and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E (although Peter Middleton's
reviews in Ken-edited Reality Studios were
excellently written and helpful). More than that,
I lament in both cases, Uk and American, the
absence of criticism that is NOT extolling
the critic or poet-critic's enthusiasms
ie you get a lot of puffs but not much honest
and useful feedback.
Whereas you get a lot of "why are you even
doing that?" or "I didn't like it, so it's
total rubbish, start all over again".
It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example
critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect
example of the kind of contemplative and
intelligent culture of comments we need.
And yet didn't many respond to her as if she
was saying "total rubbish" or "why can't I
control this". Do we have to respond to her
as if she was a schoolteacher SuperEgo?
It seems to me that poets need to develop
a sense of discrimination to be able to
acknowledge well-meant probing criticism
when it comes, and not be in a permanent
state of muscle-cramp tenseness rehearsing
an all-purpose (and off the point) snappy
comeback.
Ira Lightman
In my experience it is a nice thing when critics are not
given the time to
> discuss their criticism in a public venue as more often
than not the talk
> turns exclusively away from the actual text which is
supposed to be the
> object of inquiry into a discussion of the wherefores and
whatnots of crit
> theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory. In my
humble opinion
> the venue for criticism which works best is the printed
page. As opposed
> to poetry which splurts in many directions. In my
experience it is a rare
> occasion when a paper is actually delivered to an audience
which has access
> to the text in question before, during, or after the
paper. Any close
> textual reading which does get done in these situations
almost invariably
> gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question and
answer periods seem
> to revolve around either issues not supported by the text
and/or issues
> completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or
power of the
> personalities involved in the setting.
>
> Actually I would hold that critics are indeed second class
citizens in that
> the need to codify and "tame" produces an academy which is
by and large
> completely ignorant of, and indeed AfraiD of the "whole
art" of poetry. A
> Slap in the Face of Public Taste must happen over and over
again for just
> such reasons. When the critic and the poet become too
comfortable with
> each other the work has stopped. At this point they
become accomodating to
> each other and may even be seen writing jacket blurbs for
each other.
>
> A critic will say something like, "Milan Kundera is
overrated, all he ever
> writes about is sex anyway." and the poet will know that
the only way to
> say such a thing is through pose. Which is after all an
important part of
> poetry.
>
> You have the Word and what follows is the word.
>
> cf
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:36:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>i believe
>this says far more about the
> (slice of) soci
>ety you wander Mr. Kel
>log than it does about (any) poet
>ry.
We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging
by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:38:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
Mike Boughn wrote:
>David:
>
>George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without
>criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense
>wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language.
>Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are
>interchangeable acts.
Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated
nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and
in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing
of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms.
>While it's true that if you are concerned not strictly with poetry,
>but with other issues such as fame, notoriety, anthology spots,
>academic positions, i.e. the business of poetry, then you can't do
>without critics.
I wonder -- honestly -- whether it's possible to be concerned "strictly with
poetry." The history of poetry is littered with failed attempts to
articulate such a concern. But that's another thread, and I've already
pissed too many people off in this one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:50:04 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: Henry Flynt lectures at Anthology Film Archives]
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For anyone getting tired of critpo/pocrit thread/ts, here's how to go
hear talking about moving pix -- Pierremalgosia askanas wrote:
>
> Henry Flynt is going to do three lectures in October at the Anthology
> Film Archives in NYC: Oct 17, 24 and 31. All on Thursdays, and always
> at 8pm. The AFA is on 2nd St at 2nd Ave, SE corner.
>
> -malgosia
>
> --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: malgosia askanas <ma@panix.com>
Message-Id: <199609061534.LAA28546@panix2.panix.com>
To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU, fluxlist@scribble.com
Subject: Henry Flynt lectures at Anthology Film Archives
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Henry Flynt is going to do three lectures in October at the Anthology
Film Archives in NYC: Oct 17, 24 and 31. All on Thursdays, and always
at 8pm. The AFA is on 2nd St at 2nd Ave, SE corner.
-malgosia
--- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
--------------667D1112480F--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:21:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kathrine Varnes <kvarnes@UDEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: <322f361c0332924@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>
I question it too, and besides, no one IS taking away either group.
Imagine the partial bodies left behind.
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, maria damon wrote:
> it's the basic assumption i question.
> md
>
> In message <199609051748.NAA03324@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion
> group writes:
> > Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now,
> > if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek
> > without a paddle?
> >
> > Mike
> > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
>
______________________
Kathrine Varnes
kvarnes@udel.edu
University of Delaware
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:21:14 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
The fine relief pitcher Tug McGraw used to draw (or have drawn for him) a
comic strip about a fine relief pitcher, 'Scroogie'. In one strip, a very
Bake McBride-like outfielder fades back, back, and catches cleanly in his
mitt a football. "I hate the overlap," he says. My question for the list
is, are Bob Grenier and Tug McGraw friends? J
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:32:07 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500 Joe Amato said:
>
>which is not to deny the very real incidences (and places) where either
>critical power per se or poetic power per se goes unchallenged or
>unabated... i just don't understand, again, how (what i see as) this
>question of institutional power resolves to intrinsic differences, formal
>and otherwise, between 'poetry' and 'criticism,' and thence between poets
>and critics... even though we might point, say, to poetic under and
Maybe you don't understand it because no one ever made that claim. I
tried to describe, from a practical point of view, what I see as some
"essential" differences between poetry & criticism. They had nothing
to do with institutional power. Institutional power does not "resolve
to intrinsic differences." I also agreed with you that despite essential
differences, there is a lot of overlap. The issue of power came up
in regard to "poets vs critics" & all the friction that can happen,
not in regard to "poetry vs criticism".
- Henry G
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:40:43 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ira Lightman <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets (cont.)
I think Chris's contribution to this debate
is a good example of one culture of criticism.
I really agree with his observations, but
not all of the argument so I want to close
read my own reading of it. The
controversy-stirring critic-ego-piqueing
start strikes a "human" (ie conspiratorial,
between him writing and me reading) note:
"In my experience it is a nice thing when
critics are not given the time to
discuss their criticism in a public venue"
I feel, yes, that's the Oscar Wilde-ism I
needed when confronted with so much
bad public criticism. Chris continues:
"as more often than not the talk
turns exclusively away from the actual
text which is supposed to be the
object of inquiry into a discussion of
the wherefores and whatnots of crit
theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory."
I begin to bristle, as I fear a
"all criticism is bad, un-sensual,
cerebral" (who ever said the cerebral
is not sensual!) anti-theory blast coming.
This fear is not eased by the (rather reactionary?)
point -
"In my humble opinion the venue for criticism which works
best is the printed page."
- which is the kind of social edict I feel bearing
through people's stares at me when I try to
reason out something complex in public and
I start to stutter, fearing calls of Egghead
and Brainbox and Blue Stocking. Then Chris says:
"As opposed to poetry which splurts in many directions."
And I think of the many occasions in which it doesn't,
and on which the first sentence of a lecture,
especially if it's contentious, does (as I hope
I'm demonstrating by showing Chris' ideas, sentence
by sentence, causing splurts in my brain). And I
begin to think, I know where you're coming from
but you don't know where I'm coming from... BUT
Chris suddenly takes off with critical eloquence:
"In my experience it is a rare occasion
when a paper is actually delivered to
*an audience which has access to the text
in question before, during, or after the paper.*
My italics...
"Any close textual reading which does get
done in these situations almost invariably
gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question
and answer periods seem to revolve around either
issues not supported by the text and/or issues
completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or
power of the personalities involved in the setting."
I'm not sure what "in the frame" means here,
why just "gets lost" doesn't end the sentence best.
But this is really good detailed criticism, and
criticism of the best kind, because it starts
by taking something undiscussed that has
put many in an isolating rage, which the
critic-champion can skillfully bring
out in the open, and with a really good detailed
narrated observation of what seems typical of
the average critic's lack of interest in
the reader: 'I don't want to persuade, if it
involves work, I want to research and deliver
and go home with an event notched up. I've
spoken soberly, as if from the high ground
of public service, about which I'm less
concerned than I seem, and am really doing
what I'm good at to too little point.'
But that doesn't sound unlike a lot of poets,
who surge at one with their own high ground
(of attachment to the deep things, the muse,
deep feeling, real anger) and I leave thinking
that's like that person I bump into when
shopping who just holds forth and never
listens or asks about me - which, as a
cultural critic not just a poetry critic,
I see as endemic in this phase of consumer
capitalism, a real problem of current
social and inter-personal relations....
I don't want to hear a poet appearing to
perhaps care about this inter-personal
attitude while actually perpetuating it
in performance. Similarly, cults and
single issue pressure groups are a modern
problem insofar as they urge you to go
along with them but quell dissent or
only partial affiliation. Lee Ann Brown's
talk, from Marjorie's description, sounds
like it maybe parodies that while enacting
it while not really moving it on?
My point is (in conclusion!) that Chris is
a critic, and a good one, with great argumentative
skills but some reactionary reductionism. His
well-observed example could as easily have
been used in a (more accomodating, only initially
snubbing) case made for *better criticism*, *good
criticism*.
Given the culture and poetry we have,
we need good criticism. Marjorie has identified
a big problem, a big lack, and it's false healing
(denial!) to say "hey, we don't have a problem, we
don't need this thing we can't have". My question
is, would critics, any more than poets, have
been ready for questions afterwards? You can
make a conference rule that all papers must be
backed up by xeroxes of work discussed, but not
so easily alter the culture. Intellectual fire and
moral urgency are needed to prompt people
(a list as clever as this) to help change the culture.
Needed is a perspective of the importance of criticism
and universities. Just because there is a lot
of very bad indolent contemporary criticism
(and university lit theory), doesn't mean we
should be cynical about the *possibility* of
criticism (heaven forbid that anyone should
be so cynical about the many glass house
abiding poets who squander the possibility
of poetry). Marjorie is a rare example of
good criticism; it seems amazing to me that
some should attack her as a conservative
guarding the rot she is trying to reform.
Ira Lightman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:46:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
one further thought comes to me after reading the flurry of responses to
this thread: that ironically, it's precisely the (mostly academic) critics
on *this* list who are acutely aware of the degree to which poetry and
poets have in so many academic circles been neglected... and these selfsame
critics---marjorie, maria, david, and others of you---have in fact acted
through their work to correct this neglect, which i see less as a
territorializing gesture than as an expression of engagement and an
assignation of value (and certainly not as an act of appropriation---which
is, for example, how i read the way new historicists have deployed the
terms "poetic" and "creative"... i.e., with little if any critical
intervention from contemporary poets' quarters)...
so if in fact a critic like marjorie should 'complain' about the way poets'
articulations vis-a-vis critics' articulations have been received at a
conference, it'd probably be a good idea at least to consider that her
commitment to poetry and poets marks same as a worthy academic-critical
pursuit... and that in light of this commitment, her observation would seem
to be aimed at bringing poets and critics closer to talking turkey...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:45:04 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST from
<I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST Ira Lightman said:
>
>It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example
>critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect
>example of the kind of contemplative and
>intelligent culture of comments we need.
>
>And yet didn't many respond to her as if she
>was saying "total rubbish" or "why can't I
>control this". Do we have to respond to her
>as if she was a schoolteacher SuperEgo?
>
>It seems to me that poets need to develop
>a sense of discrimination to be able to
>acknowledge well-meant probing criticism
>when it comes, and not be in a permanent
>state of muscle-cramp tenseness rehearsing
>an all-purpose (and off the point) snappy
>comeback.
You're right, it was a sophomoric comeback. And you're right about intelligent
criticism is the great service of real informed interested critics. But
without having been at the conference, and so unable to judge, I tried to
imagine the statement made by the no-name Irish poet & its context. He's
making a statement: there's a revival of the long poem in Ireland. Marjorie
doesn"t say, "well, is that really true? There's been such and so..."
Instead, she says "we are treated to the spectacle of ..." etc etc implying
some mindless slob going unchallenged. Now in my opinion that's a fairly
snappy attack. And every snappy attack deserves a snappy comeback.
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:12:14 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: overlap
Robert Grenier was All City (Minneapolis) Basketball
Team, 1959.
He was also co-captain and captain, basketball and golf teams.
Michael Jordan--basketball, golf, baseball--would be the overlap
of McGraw and Robert Grenier.
--dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:27:22 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
David Kellogg said,
>We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging
>by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus.
It seems naive to me to say that poetry needs criticism. Poetry has
existed long before criticism reared its head and will exist long after
criticism has been defunded.
Poetry is enhanced by criticism and serious poetry engages criticism, among
other things.
On the other hand criticism NEEDS poetry else it wouldn't exist.
And of the poets I know and work with 99.9% would feel no phantom limb pain
if criticism were excised from the body. But they would sorely lack for a
valuable and, when done well, beautiful resource.
What you, David Kellogg, say about poetry/critics need for each other may
be true in certain segments of the poetry community but to extend that
beyond certain segments seems problematic. I imagine that a great number
of the poets presented in Bob Holman's recent film work do not engage
criticism in a very serious fashion & I doubt very seriously any of them
would be damaged by its (criticisms) absence.
It may be true that the "Muse" as referenced before in this thread is a
little "primitive" (in some minds) but no matter how hard the modern
experimental writer/critic tries the "Muse" cannot be taken out of any
equation involving poetry.
The existance of the muse does not preclude context or society or anything
else no matter how touchingly silly it may sound.
cf
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: overlap
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960906120205.9907A-100000@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>
plug for alma mater: Theodore Roethke was coach of the tennis team at
Penn State--
Gwyn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:22:28 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets
In-Reply-To: <ECS9609061652A@smtp.uea.ac.uk> from "Ira Lightman" at Sep 6,
96 04:44:52 pm
> It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example
> critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect
> example of the kind of contemplative and
> intelligent culture of comments we need.
>
A longish note I posted this morning relevant to this seems to have
gotten bushwhacked somewhere in e-space (a critical plot?). Perhaps it
will come limping in later, in which case this will be redundant, but
what the hell, that's never stopped me before.
I wasn't at the event that prompted Professor Perloff's initial post.
That said, my sense is that the problem arose as a kind of discharge
from the contact of two disonant cultures. Prof. Perloff obviously
(according to what she's written here) showed up meaning business. The
poets (or some of them) showed up for poetry mystery initiation
rituals including singing ditties to old Methodist tunes and making
outrageous statements about Irish poetry. It's not for others, who are
not taking part in these rituals, to judge them. These cultures as they are
revealed in Prof. Perloff's comments seem incommensurable to me, and
my initial point, restated, was simply why does everybody have to mean
Prof. Perloff's business?
Hooo hooo.
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
Oh yeah, one final point from my bushwhacked post. With all due
respect to Prof. Perloff, many people think that all this social
construction business is just another cult among the School(wo)men,
soon to go the way of other cults like the Freud cult, but certainly
with no more claim to "reality" or "truth" than my encounters with the
muse. Those who disparage the muse are those s/he hasn't deigned to
visit.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:31:45 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: <199609061538.LAA04686@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg"
at Sep 6, 96 11:38:10 am
> Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated
> nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and
> in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing
> of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms.
My point is that the relationship is asymmetrical. How are you going
to write a book about a poem until the poem gets writ? Is that what
you mean by "primary/secondary"?
> I wonder -- honestly -- whether it's possible to be concerned "strictly with
> poetry." The history of poetry is littered with failed attempts to
> articulate such a concern. But that's another thread, and I've already
> pissed too many people off in this one.
Well, David, this may be one of those critical issues where it's
theoretically impossible, but thousands of people are doing it anyway.
They haven't heard, I guess.
And who said anything about being pissed off? This is fun, no?
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:41:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: <32303e1e6932837@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Sep 6,
96 10:07:11 am
damon writes:
> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30
> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts"
Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin
shoes with spike heels!
Kinkily,
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory
> might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything.
> - Henry Gould
theory and poetry, it seems to me, are closer to each other than either is to
"criticism," meant in the old-fashioned sense of "secondary commentary on a
text." it's obvious that imaginative writing, to the extent that such a thing
can be separated from other discourses, anticipates by many decades the
discourse of commentary. i think i'll retire from this thread after reiterating
that the point, to me, is to understand the "criticism/poetry" binary as
illusory. bests, maria d
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:43:10 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: overlap
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400 from
<gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400 Gwyn McVay said:
>plug for alma mater: Theodore Roethke was coach of the tennis team at
>Penn State--
tennis...at Penn... I think there's an overlap there. If you take down
the net. - Robert Frost
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:51 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500 from
<damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500 maria damon said:
> Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory
>> might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything.
>> - Henry Gould
>
>theory and poetry, it seems to me, are closer to each other than either is to
>"criticism," meant in the old-fashioned sense of "secondary commentary on a
>text." it's obvious that imaginative writing, to the extent that such a thing
>can be separated from other discourses, anticipates by many decades the
>discourse of commentary. i think i'll retire from this thread after
>reiterating
>that the point, to me, is to understand the "criticism/poetry" binary as
>illusory. bests, maria d
Wallace Stevens would probably agee with you. They'll figure it all out
someday, at the Sorbonne. - Henri le Goulash
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:23:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>David Kellogg said,
>>We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging
>>by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus.
>
>
>It seems naive to me to say that poetry needs criticism. Poetry has
>existed long before criticism reared its head and will exist long after
>criticism has been defunded.
I honestly don't understand what it means to talk about poetry and criticism
in terms this general. The poetry BC (Before Criticism) is not the same as
the poetry AC.
>Poetry is enhanced by criticism and serious poetry engages criticism, among
>other things.
Some poetry is, some serious poetry is, yes.
>On the other hand criticism NEEDS poetry else it wouldn't exist.
>And of the poets I know and work with 99.9% would feel no phantom limb pain
>if criticism were excised from the body. But they would sorely lack for a
>valuable and, when done well, beautiful resource.
That's not my point. The post in which I made the phantom pain comparison
had nothing to say about individual poets, but a lot to say about the social
body of contemporary poetry. Someone else (I forget who now) has complained
that such concerns are only about the business of poetry, not poetry as
such. Since in my view there is no outside-the-social, I'm skeptical of
such distinctions. But hey, that's why this is a fun list. And as Joe
Amato nicely pointed out, the folks on this list who have taken this
position are quite committed to poetry and are not interested in debasing it.
>What you, David Kellogg, say about poetry/critics need for each other may
>be true in certain segments of the poetry community but to extend that
>beyond certain segments seems problematic. I imagine that a great number
>of the poets presented in Bob Holman's recent film work do not engage
>criticism in a very serious fashion & I doubt very seriously any of them
>would be damaged by its (criticisms) absence.
The PBS station near us, damn them, didn't carry the USOP, so I can't
comment yet specifically on that. But this discussion seems to be turning
into a Jurrasic-Park-like "what if" scenario, or, better, a critical
"rapture" fantasy (to dig out a term from premillenial fundamentalist
Xianity). What if -- poof! -- there were no critics tomorrow? Obviously
unanswerable and silly. -- "First, let's kill all the critics." Your point
about the USOP poets is historically specific, and that's one reason I take
it seriously. But my point was always social, never individual. And if the
film itself can be seen as an act akin to criticism, then that example
becomes complex indeed, no?
I also want to second Maria's skepticism about the term "criticism," since
that's not quite what I do in my "critical" work, and there's a handmaid
quality built into the word.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:58:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In message <199609061741.NAA29371@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> damon writes:
>
> > But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30
> > years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts"
>
> Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin
> shoes with spike heels!
>
> Kinkily,
> Mike
> mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
i must admit, l wear milton to excess, especially at odd hours and with odd
acquaintances...md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:33:00 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
okay, poetry v criticism no binary. but what's criticism? where does it
exist? at conferences? in journals? in popular magazines, newspapers, on
websites, in listservs, at readings, on the phone, at the bar, in the park,
on the softball field? There are still some poets who are amused by the
idea of conferences, and bless them. Who are suspicious, but who will
listen and smile when you tell them about what happened. Jordan
PS Don't invoke Frost unless you really want to talk about him, in which
case, evvybody turn to 'New Hampshire' and let's talk-- otherwise you're
cheap shooting, and that's no go in an election year, unless you're a
politician (there's a binary)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:40:47 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the object
George Bowering wrote:
> But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy,
> and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time
> getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was
> disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that
> he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD.
I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't
tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same.
Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries?
Rachel
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:49:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: the ghettoization of poetry
Maria, I had a feeling you might fetishize syntax...
____
the subject line up above is the title of Richard Howard's keynote address
to PEN at the ceremony for their translation award (given to Guy Davenport
for _7 Greeks_). In that talk he argues that National Poetry Month is the
worst thing to happen to poetry in years, and that we must make poetry a
secret again (he plays on _secretion_) or risk the loss of 'our heritage.'
The title caught my attention, especially in relation to Bob Perelman's
book _The Marginalization of Poetry_. Since the apparent subtext of the New
Hampshire conference was the dismantling of certain assumptions about power
(and irony) in what for lack of jargon I'll call the alternative/academic
poetry-in-English community, can anyone speak to this problematic equation
of poetry and outside? Maria? J
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
henry, i guess i'm not being my [cough] usual cogent self: what i'm
saying---and if it's fashionable to say so this is in part b/c it's
accurate---is that there are differences in institutional power, and that
these explain different apprehensions of the relationship between "poetry,"
"criticism," "poets," "critics," etc... and in fact---and this is perhaps
where we disagree---that for me to make this claim is contra the claim that
there are "essential differences" between these categories (which of course
are rubrics under which many of us "live") that are *not* a function of
such apprehensions, so described... ergo, as before, institutional power
does not resolve to blah blah blah...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:59:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: confidential to Mark Wallace
Mark Wallace wrote:
> Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this
> communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming
> to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take
> their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts
> at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project.
>
> BEWARE ALL CLONES!
Mark, as I said to you before, please seek help as soon as possible.
Your psychosis is advancing by leaps and bounds and I don't want to
hear that you turned up on the "raped by aliens" episode of _Geraldo_.
Rachel
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:14:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carnography <scrypt@INTERPORT.NET>
Subject: Both critic and poet, both reader and writer
The problem would seem to be one of categorization, yet people seem
to be arguing over hierarchical significance. This is utterly predictable
and understandable: Ask a popular/populist novelist what s/he thinks
about difficult prose and you're likely to hear: "There's a lot more
writing than reading in that book" (direct quote from Katherine Dunne).
Ask a certain (former) Nyorican poet what s/he thinks of Jerome Rothenberg
and you're likely to be told that poetry without narrative is elitist
poetry--an ironic reversal, since much eighties postmodern fiction
claimed to be free of the constraints of traditional narrative
for political reasons (Acker, for example).
Fundamentally, these people are defending prejudice as praxis:
a certain intolerance is sometimes necessary to a practicing writer.
Also, writers are so ignored in America, and writing is such a
solitary activity, that there is always an atavistic struggle
to assert which kind of writing is most deserving of attention.
Still, I find it amazing that people who are peculiarly trained
to understand one another's work would arm-wrestle in the name
of a disinterested public.
In this discussion group, people often turn away from questions that
frame the aesthetic context. But here it is extremely pertinent:
There is a point at which a prejudice toward a particular aesthetic
is not only harmless but necessary to the work of a practicig writer.
Since we are all writers and readers by virtue of our being in this
(written) discussion group, I will speak only of readers who are also
writers.
If the wReider listens repeatedly to Machaut in a house full of
grotesquely ornate furniture, and associates that environment
with pleasure, s/he might seek out writing that has an intricate,
ornate and bristling texture. In that case, s/he would be more
likely to read Alabaster and Derrida than Whitman and Holman.
If the wReider grew up hearing and creating fantastic stories,
and associates that activity with pleasure, then s/he might
ignore criticism, mistrust poetry, and seek out strong narrative
writers like Amado and O'Connor.
In *that* context--in that petrii dish of culturally programmed
aesthetic fetishism--what is the use of arguing against privilege
or for artistic pre-eminence?
All the best,
Rob Hardin
PS: The poet who writes about criticism--even one whose motive is
to categorize critics as minor artistic entities--has in that moment
become a critic. Thus, on this poetry list, we are all critics--so
long as we discuss the significance of criticism.
"Ticks and tones might shake my throne,
But frames will never shirt me."
http://www.interport.net/~scrypt
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:06:33 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500 Joe Amato said:
>henry, i guess i'm not being my [cough] usual cogent self: what i'm
>saying---and if it's fashionable to say so this is in part b/c it's
>accurate---is that there are differences in institutional power, and that
>these explain different apprehensions of the relationship between "poetry,"
>"criticism," "poets," "critics," etc... and in fact---and this is perhaps
>where we disagree---that for me to make this claim is contra the claim that
>there are "essential differences" between these categories (which of course
>are rubrics under which many of us "live") that are *not* a function of
>such apprehensions, so described... ergo, as before, institutional power
>does not resolve to blah blah blah...
Maybe this ought to be backchanneled! I can't figure out what you're saying!
But let me try to respond anyhow! Are you saying that the understanding of
what poetry & criticism are is relative - and it's based on different
levels of institutional power? It's a kind of sociological reading?
I'm not going to argue with its "essential relativity" or non-rel.
"Pragmatically" speaking, my own view is that poetry & criticism
differ in essence. What I am NOT saying (as I tried to emphasize in
previous post) is that POETS & CRITICS are essentially different or
necessarily antagonistic. So: if you say - poetry & criticism are not
essentially different - then we disagree. But: if you're saying -
there's no criteria to judge this, it's all a question of power -
then we're talking past each other. It's a different debate.
- Henry
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:41:10 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gary Roberts <GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: poetry and criticism
As Rene Char put it: There is no pure seat.
This genre struggle (I am aware that here I privilege textual practice over
community practice) also seems to be about the ritual use of names. Critical
play/work (conference, essay, listserve, poem...) requires forms of
identification and procedes by the exchange of these tokens, whereas poetic
play/work does not need such an exchange. Acts of criticism such as
quotation and allusion at some point involve nominal references which can no
longer be deferred. A poetic practice such as the use of a diction need not
necessarily involve names, though it can, nor need a poetic use of names be
critical. I suppose I cannot imagine a criticism without provided or implied
names, though I can imagine such a poetry. And, of course, I can imagine
a critical poetry either with or without names.
Gary R
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:10:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Romana Christina Huk <rch@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
I'm just back on the line, recovering from the event here last weekend
and catching up with the chat about it and "poets and critics." I'm
probably just tired but I find all of this rather disheartening and
surprising, especially Marjorie's almost entirely negative take on the
conference. I want to offer a few simple points just to deflate the
ballooning implications of the event's planning that have become the
topic of conversation. First off, I confess that it was my own bad
organization and lack of experience in running conferences that resulted
in lack of discussion time; if you look at the schedule again, you'll
see that at least one quarter of the time for each session should have
been devoted to talk, but since virtually no session started on
time(something I should have foreseen), talk became abbreviated. I want
to stress, however, that in only one case did this result in no time
whatsoever; there WAS time for questions about Philip Mead's fine paper,
for example--it just got overtaken by questions directed at Bob Perelman.
Secondly, the program was full of bios and pics of the poets because it
was made with the evening audience in mind, not the conference audience.
(I think I would have felt pretty silly presenting such a thing to those
of us who already know most of these people.) I can see that Marjorie
may not have realized this because fewer "members of the public" showed
up than I had hoped; if they had, the need for these brochures might have
been more apparent. I had no time to make introductions, given the long
list of readers each night; it was key that the uninitiated had some
sketches of the poets on stage.
These are boring points to make, but I'm trying to show you that in many
cases what you're reading as fair or foul intention are the effects of my
own poor planning and/or communication. Bigger issues involve the amount
of time allowed poets vs. critics, and I must say that the problem never
crossed my mind. I thought: all day to the conference (with an hour and
a half for afternoon readings) and all night to the readings. What would
have been more fair? Most of the poets coming to the conference felt
that they needed to read as well as give papers, so I accommodated them to
the extent that I could, never even thinking this might be a problem for
the critics. The fact was that I had less response from people wishing
to give papers than I had hoped, even though the "call" was as widespread
as I could manage to make it. Those I "invited" were simply the people
whose addresses I had; I asked that information be passed on. And I took
papers all the way up until the week before the conference. Go figure.
I won't go on with this. I would have hoped that the conversation would
have been about the differences we heard and saw -- some of them
illustrative of writers working at some distance from our conversations
on poetics and therefore a bit uncomfortable about coming together as we
did. So at times the papers didn't satisfy those who like Marjorie are
at a different edge of talk; I was in a less demanding way pleased that
the Irish poet whose been batted about a bit here left saying that he had
a lot to read, and would do so with pleasure.
That was the point of my doing this.
We should talk now about what makes all of these people "alternative" or
no -- talk with them, too. I'm sorry that this event didn't plan well
enough that crucial time; I hope someone else does this again soon --
does it better.
Thanks to all who came.
Romana Huk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:20:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Both
re: both
(Not to be confused with Paul Metcalf's book by that name--say Poe
and (John Wilkes) Booth at the same time: Both!)
I just learned two things at that college, Mr. Ford, that was
ever of any use to me . . . the other was a definition I got out the
agronomy books, and I reckon it was even more important to me than the
first. It did more to revise my thinking , if I'd really done
any thinking up until that time. Before that I'd seen the everything in
black and white, good and bad. But after I was set straight I saw that
the name you put to a thing depended on where you stood and where it
stood. And . . . and here's the definition, right out of the agronomy
books: "A weed is a plant out place." I find a hollyhock in my
cornfield, and it's a weed. I find it in my yard, and it's a flower."
--Jim Thompson, The Killer Inside Me
--dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:37:36 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In-Reply-To: <322eeb2819c7004@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>
Hey maria, you have so published! :-) gab.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:00:23 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Assembling
What I think would be interesting (and I know some of the participants are
just recovering from the ardors of their return journey and have for that
reason not yet contributed) - aside from the thread that evolved and
expanding from Romana's thoughts - would be to hear more about/from the
poets who were there, their work as performed or in general, about/from the
critics who gave papers and what the papers given were about. That is, talk
about what we saw or what we might've missed (for those who couldn't go).
I fear of course the way the trend is going (the conference -> an issue
related to but at a remove from the conference), the discussion will next
evolve towards "the phenomenon of tangential discussions on listservs" (the
conference -> an issue related to but at a remove from the conference -> how
listservs discuss tangential issue).
Simply put, it would be great to hear more about *the work* presented at
Assembling!
I'd also like to think about what alternatives if any might be assembled
from the fact of this gathering. I also think that if there was a shortage
of time for discussion while we were all together, now is the time that
specific questions CAN be brought up.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:15:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joel Kuszai <kuszai@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.960905221430.2057A-100000@solaria05.Stanford.EDU>
I've not logged in a couple days--but have been watching the clouds circle
in from the east and wanted to comment on something Marjorie Perloff said
in her recent post. Personally I think the poet-critics debate is kind of
silly, yet I wonder if there aren't threads of things that need to be
discussed that aren't being addressed.
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Marjorie Perloff wrote:
> ... why did all the poets give critical papers? Do the poets
> have a special corner on criticism? Many were sophomoric, self-indulgent,
> and just plain empty. I come back to my original question: who gets to
> speak and why?
This is an issue I've been wondering about for some time. Granted, my
experience with conferences has been extremely limited to conferences held
since the rise of G2+ with the conference organized by Juliana Spahr now
more than 3.5 years ago, THE NEW COAST. And I'm not thinking of, say,
conferences such as the one Jonathan Monroe organized last year at
Cornell, which was for the most part mostly an academic conference (though
poets did speak there, as both critics and poets). But rather, I am
thinking of the Rob Fitterman sponsored NYC Poetry Talks, New Coast, etc.
Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the conf. at New Hampshire, and
sorely wish that I had been able to afford it. I made the commitment to
attend the Maine 50s conf., and give a paper there (something I hope to do
more and more). The issue for me isn't one of poets-vs.-critics, which
seems like a replay of an issue as old as poetry itself, but rather
something else. And here it is (sorry for the long disclaimer). Why are
poets required, asked, invited--and now I would say, "compelled" to speak
at all? Perhaps there is a historical reason for this, or a structural
one. At New York, the presence of grad students from Brown, Buffalo, and
elsewhere explains why the critical and theoretical discourse may have
such a cultural cache. In fact, the poets of this orbit may be inclined to
have theoretical work to do, axes to grind, or otherwise a need to involve
and invest in such discouses. But is that something that everyone (even of
this group) shares? I'm not suggesting that poets not speak at
conferences, or not be theoretical--actually the opposite. But Marjorie's
description of Lee Ann's performative talk is something I've seen before.
What happens is that poets are invited to speak/ AND read, rather than,
say, being invited to propose a topic to be discussed on a panel. The same
is true of Maine, which should, in my mind, have been juried a little.
After that one, I personally felt ripped off by the piss-poor quality of
some of the papers. (and not all of them by poets). The idea that all
poets should be theorists (of their own work, at least) or that they make
discriminating intellectual decisions about the value of poetry they like
or dislike--this is a great idea, a great theory. But the reality is that
poets get up there, without a handle on the hip vocabulary they know they
need to use. The result is the "performative" (which is often masked by a
vapid refusal to engage the audience through "disruptive" or "creative"
language practices). This is all fine, on the one hand. And we know how to
address such material, and it really works a lot of the time. But on the
other, the point of having a panel discussion is reduced to something less
than surfing the net.
Why do organizers of conferences feel that every poet needs to make a
speech?
Why aren't such conferences juried the way that real academic conferences
are (or should be)? The case with Maine being for me a lesson learned.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 04:13:29 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Methodist hymns and other protestant matters
"Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen
Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now
suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there
would have been lots of objection."
Actually, if it were Stephen Greenblatt at the MLA, it might come as a
great breath of fresh air. But if it were Fred Jameson, it just might
be seen as the 800 pound gorilla pissing to mark the edges of his
territory (an image Greenblatt once used to describe his own project,
actually). If Andrew Ross did it, people would check out his threads
and see it as very post something. Ditto Avital Ronell. Dr. Sokol would
then conduct a session in which we would sing the poems of Emily
Dickinson to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas. And then write about
it. But if a graduate student, particularly a female grad student, or a
tenuously situated untenured person tried it, they would be toast.
Not having been to the conference in question -- having in fact not
once seen even a single piece of literature on it (nor any other
mention, save on this list), not even a call for Methodist hymns -- I'm
intrigued at the debate. My distant take on the whole event initially
was that this was a pretty typical academic affair. Other than maybe
NYC, all the folks involved seem to have had some connection to a
school -- even if might be something homegrown like Naropa.
So Marjorie's plahn (lookitup) is interesting on the face of it.
Implicit (or not so implicit) in her comments is the idea that poets
who don't "have anything to say" should shut up, or at least maintain a
decorous silence. Critics (to create a mythic category that is at least
as much a fictive construct as "poets") would know better than to speak
w/o anything of value to contribute to the occasion.
Of course if this were really the case, most MLA conventions would
consist of job interviews and little else. All those pointless papers
in little hotel rooms would be lost forever.
Okay, I'm being snide, I admit it. I think that the compulsion to speak
(which is the publish or perish (or worse yet, to disappear into that
purgatory known as adjuncthood) impulse at its most basic) is every bit
as totalitarian and mind-numbing as the "poets do it, they don't talk
about it" anti-theoretical mandate that we have only in the past 20
years begun to recover from. I suspect that if for the next half
century ALL academic conferences consisted ONLY of people singing Helen
Adams to the tune of Methodist hymns we would just begin to balance
things out a little bit. I want Vendler sitting in in every one of
those sessions.
Of course, it gets more confusing if it's the poets telling poets that
they have to "be critical" and give talks or whatever. That's at least
as obnoxious.
But there are some deeper questions under all this--one is the
territorialization of literature via the process of singing ABOUT,
rather than just singing AS SUCH. When poets don't sing about their
work and that of others, they cede the territory (in the most literal
sense) to others who have no particular ground for their insights other
than as a career strategy. The number of critics who actually write
something of value about the subject of contemporary literature is
considerably fewer than the number of words in this paragraph. And for
every Marjorie Perloff, there are hundreds if not thousands of others
singing the tune of tenure and calling it discourse.
When you look at what Marjorie has contributed versus, say, the work of
others of roughly the same generation (Altieri, say, whom I think may
be on this list, or Von Hallberg), it seems clear enough to me that it
is only the most exceptional of critics who ever contributes anything
beyond mere background chatter that ultimately has no impact whatsoever
or only so indirectly (Von H, for example, has provoked some good
pieces by Jed Rasula, Jerry McGann and others, and clearly influenced
Alan Golding who, like Marjorie, is one of those very rare critics--the
absolute number has to be less than two dozen--who also knows how to
read) as to be irrelevant within 3 months of publication. We can't take
Marjorie Perloff to be the "baseline" of what critical writing means,
because it places the bar far too high for most practitioners.
At least Lee Ann Brown offers us a tune through which to view Helen
Adams' work. In fact, I think looking at one writer's prosody through
another prosodic system makes a lot of sense as a critical project.*
And doing this directly might lead to far greater insight than doing it
through a more indirect discursive method. It might actually change how
somebody someday writes something. Which, so far as I can tell, is the
only test of criticism that counts.
hummin' along,
Ron Silliman
rsillima@ix.netcom.com
*For example, if you were to sing the Maximus poems in a rap format,
whose work would it be? Or Lee Ann Brown--can you read her work to the
sound of ZZ Top? I can imagine that Mr. Bowering and Ms. Loden might
have much to say about such possibilities and others [[What does it
mean that so many of Ted Berrigan's records were by Arthur Godfrey??]]
if only they would get themselves out from under the sheets in that
virtual motel room....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 06:44:54 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
I sincerely hope the "critics v poets" thread is petering out now. It's a pity
that, following Marjorie Perloff's initial post, this is the thread that has
been pursued most energetically since the conference.
Those who were fortunate enough to be there will know, and those who weren't
should be made aware, that this was NOT an issue there.
One of the most urgent questions Assembling Alternatives posed for me was: What
is the relationship between the different communities writing poetry in English
in non-normative ways? Do we have a common politics of poetic form? Assertions
about "American" hegemony are not necessarily going to move us on much further.
But it is clear, for instance, there is a large body of Canadian work which is
exciting and reaching new stages of development, with a strong presence by
women. It is clear that the Irish avant-garde scene is small (the conference
participants constituted just about the whole of it) but could usefully be
included in the wider colloquy. It is also the case that the British scene is
rich and well-established, but its exponents are only just beginning to be read
across the Atlantic. And finally, to reiterate a point I made in a previous
post, Philip Mead's paper pointed to parallel developments in Australia, and I
for one would certainly like to know more about "innovative" writing there and
in New Zealand.
Perhaps we should be working to get beyond these national categories now, and
start learning more from each other. It may be one of the ways forward that Bob
Perelman was urging us to consider in his "after 'language' what?" presentation.
The question of distribution of texts is one practical difficulty to be
addressed. But it seems to me that the Poetics list by its very nature provides
the ideal forum for discussing these issues. Why don't we start doing it,
instead of indulging in fruitless mutual sniping?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 06:05:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: m. boughn's satin shoes with high heels
are these, perhaps, the unmentionable objects that have been dominating
the hearts and minds of messr.'s and mesdm.'s bowering, loden, and wallace?
perhaps someone might consider sharing this treat and putting a GIF of
them up on a web site somewhere, unless there are irreconcilable legal
complications...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:41:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <199609070403.AAA09775@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Romana (and others)--I think you're absolutely right and I wasn't "totally
negative" at all, just raising some key issues. You're right that the
real subject was meant to be, should have been, what made some of these
poetries "alternative." But do you feel we really discussed how, why,
where, when they were alternative?
What IS the difference between say, Paul Muldoon, Eavan Boland, Medh
Megkukian (can't spell right?) and the Irish poets at the conference?
This is not a rhetorical question--I would honestly like to know.
And where do US/ UK poetries come together, diverge, etc? I hope we keep
that ball rolling.
Marjorie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:54:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: HELP!!! "humor institute"
i saw the phrase "the humor institute" somewhere and it sparked me to write a
poem but now...
i can't remember where i saw it and i need the source for proper attribution...!
can anyone help my failing memory? backchannel if you think best to
elliza@ai.mit.edu
e
THANKS!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:28:25 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: the bedfellows -- poets and critics (wrning - this is a poem)
Auditron
Hissing and clicking
pictures into the box
you touch, take
your fingers rubbing
your temples, carrying
sweet oil to the keys
tapping quickly, lightly
The keys gather, heave
into spasms, subside
I am in the box
you read, sucking me
though rubber lines
into your sleep, showers,
into the song you hum cooking,
into your quick looks
stroking, pulling, holding
pictures I feed into
the box that holds me.
EMC
8/20/96
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:53:17 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the ghettoization of poetry
In message <v01530503ae5620a77c04@[166.84.199.56]> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Maria, I had a feeling you might fetishize syntax...
i don't get it...i've never purchased or borrowed a syntax or any other such
object in my life. george bowering can attest to this.
>
> ____
>
> the subject line up above is the title of Richard Howard's keynote address
> to PEN at the ceremony for their translation award (given to Guy Davenport
> for _7 Greeks_). In that talk he argues that National Poetry Month is the
> worst thing to happen to poetry in years, and that we must make poetry a
> secret again (he plays on _secretion_) or risk the loss of 'our heritage.'
> The title caught my attention, especially in relation to Bob Perelman's
> book _The Marginalization of Poetry_. Since the apparent subtext of the New
> Hampshire conference was the dismantling of certain assumptions about power
> (and irony) in what for lack of jargon I'll call the alternative/academic
> poetry-in-English community, can anyone speak to this problematic equation
> of poetry and outside? Maria? J
an interesting, provocative phrase...personally i think the "feminization of
poetry" is a bit more fitting, since poetry is cordoned off as both too
"effete," "ineffectual" etc to be of use in the world, AND as too potentially
subversive (cf Victor Jara's, Neruda's, etc, assassinations). this
double-whammy resonates with ye olde virgin/whore dichotomy where chicks can't
win for losing. at first glance, poetry is kept under surveillance like a
Camille in an oxygen tank more than like a Mumia Abu-Jamal on death row, tho
it's also true that most oppressions operate at multiple levels (i.e. a target
group is simultaneously "wily" and "childishly naive"). i think the argument
robert duncan articulates in both versions of "the homosexual society" can be
seen in the predicament of poetry; poets' discourse often ghettoizes itself,
through a defensive if understandable need for self-protection, as a response to
majority insensitivity...these are off-the-cuff, undertheorized responses
admittedly. any other takers?
ps i do think it important sometimes to argue that poetry is "ghettoized" --in
order to increase funding for poets etc; it's also important to realize the ways
in which poetic (anti)discourse does and/or does not interact with and partake
of other discourses, so that no ghetto is an island...in fact the majority
society is far more dependent on the functioning of that ghetto than its PR wd
have one believe...
xo,md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:41:50 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: abolishing tenure as we know it
Comments: To: ecohen@zodiac.rutgers.edu
dear friends; the regents of my university voted yesterday to adopt changes to
the tenure code that give them virtually unlimited license to fire at will. at
this time i'd like to issue an SOS to anyone who knows of academic positions
coming up at other institutions for which i might be a suitable candidate; i'm
very serious about trying to find another job. i append the letter the faculty
consultative committee has drafted, just to give you a flavor of the seriousness
of the situation. in the meantime, we're trying to unionize, but there's a
strong sense that unions are mean and confrontational (very unminnesotan,
despite the state's history of progressive populism) so that's not a sure deal
either.
bests, maria d
From: Gary Engstrand <garye@mailbox.mail.umn.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:53:38 CST
To: Multiple recipients of list UMN-FAC <umn-fac@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: FCC Press release
>From Faculty Consultative Committee, University of Minnesota
September 6, 1996
Contact Prof. Victor Bloomfield (625-2268)
The Faculty Consultative Committee (FCC) of the University of Minnesota said
today that the revisions to the University Tenure Code proposed at
yesterday's meeting of the Board of Regents would, if adopted, destroy the
University as a major research institution. A statement unanimously adopted
by the FCC asserted:
The University of Minnesota's position as a leading research university
has been crucial to the economic and social health of the State of
Minnesota. The teaching, research, and outreach efforts of its faculty have
generated billions of dollars of economic activity, attracted hundreds of
millions of research dollars, created tens of thousands of jobs, and taught
hundreds of thousands of Minnesota citizens.
Continued University contributions to the well-being of the State depend
on our being able to continue to attract and retain the best and most
creative faculty. Up to this time we have been able to hold our own,
despite severe national competition and declining state funding, because of
our strong reputation for educational excellence and academic freedom.
The tenure revision proposal under consideration by the Board of Regents
undermines the commonly accepted principles of academic freedom. If adopted, it
will quickly and inevitably destroy our reputation, our competitive position,
and our ability to serve the citizens of Minnesota.
Contrary to the claims of the outside lawyers and consultants engaged by the
Regents, the proposed tenure revisions are drastically outside the norms
of Big 10 and other leading research universities. The revisions allow for
virtually unlimited administrative arbitrariness in layoffs and salary
reductions, and effectively demolish the protections to academic freedom
afforded by tenure.
Academic freedom is of primary benefit not to professors, but to society. It
allows faculty to do the novel research and develop the unconventional ideas
that challenge current wisdom, improve our quality of life, and move
civilization forward. Tenure, granted only after years of rigorous testing
of probationary faculty, embodies the rules that protect academic freedom.
Tenure does not protect faculty from sanctions (including removal) if they
are seriously derelict in their duty. But it must protect them from
arbitrary actions by vindictive or short-sighted administrators, or
pressures from external interest groups.
The changes proposed by the Board of Regents would render such protection
meaningless. No sensible prospective faculty member would choose to come
to the University of Minnesota when its policies are so out of step with
the rest of the nation's leading institutions. Many of our best faculty
will choose to leave. And those who stay will hunker down, avoiding
controversy and resisting necessary institutional change.
We do not doubt the sincerity of the Regents' "commitment to maintaining and
supporting excellence at the University of Minnesota". However, the proposed
changes to the tenure code will have just the opposite effect, severely
damagingthe University and its ability to contribute to the State. We
implore the Regents, in our shared concern and affection for this vital
institution, to withdraw their proposed changes and work with the faculty
and administration to develop a sounder, less destructive policy.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:02:03 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
romana, i feel it necessary to chime in here that this discussion has made
me regret *even more* that i couldn't find a way to your conference... by
my account, whether critical or celebratory, post-conference discussion of
this sort pays homage to the event...
so hey, good work!...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:43:37 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
>Mike Boughn wrote:
>
>>David:
>>
>>George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without
>>criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense
>>wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language.
>>Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are
>>interchangeable acts.
David kellog wrote:
>
>Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated
>nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and
>in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing
>of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms.
Wait, wait! When did anyone in this thread say anything about genre? I took
it for granted that we were discussing ALL kinds of poetry and ALL kinds of
criticism. And help me, please: what is "arguing against genre"? Does that
mean disallowing, say, comic verse? Or saying that comic verse is not
separable from laments? Whew! Where is this all going?
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:48:53 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: overlap
Well, there are some who say that William carlos Williams was the greatest
athlete ever at Penn.
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:45:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
are Bob Grenier and Tug McGraw friends? J
Naw, just good lovers.
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:54:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.960906103721.15404C-100000@uhunix5> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> Hey maria, you have so published! :-) gab.
its twu its twu, thanks to u & u & u...
thus blurring even further the distinctions...
bests, md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:47:14 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From: Alan Golding <ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: UNH Again
Alan Golding
Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville
502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
The possibility that Mike Boughn recently posted to the list of Alan Golding
conceivably being wrong about something strikes me as most odd. The two
terms--"Golding" and "wrong"--seem directly contradictory.
"But seriously, folks . . ."
Perhaps I *am* just wrong. It's happened plenty of times before. But, Mike,
please don't assume it based on Marjorie's half-sentence paraphrase of my talk
at the UNH Conference. (Marjorie's comment was accurate enough in terms of the
general field within which I moved [scrabbled?], but didn't address my
argument, such as it was, and I don't think it was her point / purpose to do
so.) Anyway, my talk was more in the spirit of your Steiner quotation than
not, and I spent some time talking about how numerous "linguistically
innovative" poets seem to hold closer to some version of the Steiner position
than they are often stereotyped as doing. But like MD,I'm somewhat
uncomfortable with Steiner's rhetoric--in particular, the rhetoric of disease
("symptom," "parasite") and what strikes me as an untenable opposition between
"immediacy" and "mediation," as if it were somehow possible to choose between
the two. In my talk, I tried to explore some possible middle ground between
the poles of "poet" and "theorist" via some work I like that I see as
genuinely generically ambiguous (anti-generic? post-generic?)--Bob Perelman's
"The Marginalization of Poetry." I'm trying to work through what I find some
intriguing (and moving) moments of self-division in Perelman (and in a longer
version, Bernstein), where they end up privileging poetry (which, despite
being a critic, I actually have no problem with) in texts that seem to argue
against that privileging. And I'm trying to think about to what extent
differences between poetry and theory are institutional rather than essential.
To me, none of this is quite as simple as the Steiner quotation suggests
(though I'll make no inferences from that to Steiner's work generally, since I
barely know it). I focused on the institutional in my talk precisely because
institutional theorizing (which I distinguished explicitly from the many forms
of theorizing or speculative thinking possible) and criticism has not followed
through either on its own pomo. premises or on the possibilities offered it by
poetry. *Poet-theorists* have done so; writers whom one would identify mainly
as academic theorists and critics (like me) have not. I was interested in
discussing that continued condition of what Charles B. calls "Frame Lock," and
in speculating how texts like Perelman's might help break the deadlock
that--to judge from the current discussion--"we" still live within. But c'mon,
Mike: you're a part of these institutional networks too, but hardly a
parasite, even if that particular aside bugged me some. I'm happy to send you
(or anyone) the paper--your feedback is always helpful.
On the conference itself, not much to add to what others have said. No, I
didn't feel like a second-class citizen; Marjorie has some understandable
reasons for feeling that way, based on some misunderstanding /
miscommunication about the terms of her own participation (wd. you agree, M.?)
(Whether one complaint counts as "the critics going bonkers," I'm not sure.) I
had a great time, and felt no poet-critic divide myself--though maybe I'm not
representative 'cause I consider many of the folks there my friends, and
anyway, who knows what they said behind my back? Generally, the camaderie and
sense of shared interests was very strong--though as someone else said, the
Draconian scheduling left almost no chance for differences to be aired, talked
through, etc. Critics and poets alike suffered from the exhausting and
over-tight scheduling: truncated readings, truncated discussions, truncated
everything (including sleep). And there were lousy readings and talks and good
readings and talks and people disagreed as to what were the lousy ones and
what were the good ones. No surprise there. A lot of the poets I'd heard many
times before and pretty much knew what to expect and took great pleasure in
getting it (sounds very consumerist, somehow)--mostly the Americans and
Bromide and McCaffery. But among those I'd never heard or not heard much, my
personal faves were the Anglo-Saxon-ly visceral Maggie O'Sullivan, the
high-speed Tom Raworth, the even higher speed Miles Champion, the
sharp-and-lyrical Rae Armantrout, the tone-hopping Lisa Robertson, the Great
American Novelist Carla Harryman, ex-Horseman Paul Dutton, monologuiste
extraordinaire Hazel Smith, and Apollo and Dionysos, Allen Fisher and cris
cheek. Arguing AF's theories of narrative at 3:00 a.m. with these latter two,
Tuma, and assorted Irish companions (including a bottle of Jameson's) was a
positively Olsonian experience (all the way to the maleness of it, I guess . .
.) Every critic should have something like it.
And yes, it should have been called Assembling White Alternatives. Is this
some kind of social atavism? Not a single non-white person in sight at the
conference, or at least in my sight. And I'm told there was only one at the
New Formalism-fest earlier this summer. And we've already talked about Orono.
Nor was there much discussion or imagining of alternatives outside of the
academic context in which the conversation took place. When there was, it came
mostly from non-US participants, as you'd expect given that the relation of
poetry to the academy is very different in England, Ireland, and even (I
think--help me on this, listmates) Canada from what it is in the US. Put
another way, the alternatives talked about tended to be aesthetic more often
than social. (OK, who's going to be the first to jump on me for that
distinction?)
Having offered some critique, I now feel ungrateful--I actually had a
tremendous time, learned a ton, picked up loads of books I couldn't otherwise
get, and generally am amazed simply at the fact Romana Huk could make this
thing happen. She deserves endless kudos. And as an antidote to the
frustration of discussions and questions cut short--here we are.
Well, that became much longer than I'd planned. Is anyone still awake?
Alan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:10:51 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: abolishing tenure as we know it
Maria et al.,
It's notable that tenure is under attack at schools where the AAUP is not. In
my view, tenure is a necessary evil. At my school, where there is a good
affiliate of AAUP, and where there is a decent relationship with the
administration, nevertheless a recent job ad was for "temporary tenure track"
positions. go and figure. it turned out to be a clerical error. but was it?
God save us from the MBAs of this world.
Burt
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:27:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Bill Luoma <Maz881@AOL.COM>
Subject: uncle
an SF poet named Adam DeGraff sent me a chpbk with blue type that he write.
a series of "journal" poems to his new nephew Dante giving him hints about
how to live.
this poem has meaning for the current blithering about poets and critics.
it's called may 24th:
Look, first of all, if you're trying to inherit the earth,
then you're probably not all that meek to begin with.
Secondly, owning a planet would only be fun for
a little while, but then, like everything else in your
closet, would soon go out of style. And third, imagine
the liability, the outlandish cost of utilities. Who
needs the responsibility? No, much better to take the
world by force, thus ensuring failure. Then, of course,
you're safe. It's no secret failure is foolproof.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:19:01 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: Did you know that in.....]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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some light fare for saturday afternoon, coming, of all places from the
"avant-garde" list... enjoy, Pierre
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Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:29:06 +0100
To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
From: jnech@imaginet.fr (NECHVATAL Joseph)
Subject: Did you know that in.....
Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> >
> > Alabama
> > **It is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while operating a
> > vehicle.
> >
> >
> > California
> > **Community leaders passed an ordinance that makes it illegal
> > for anyone to try to stop a child from playfully jumping over
> > puddles of water.
> >
> >
> > Connecticut
> > **You can be stopped by the police for biking over 65 miles
> > per hour.
> > **You are not allowed to walk across a street on your hands.
> >
> >
> > Florida
> > **Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as
> > can the salon owner.
> > **A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting
> > on Sunday or they risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.
> > **If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee
> > has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.
> > **It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a
> > swimsuit.
> > **Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.
> >
> >
> > Illinois
> > **It is illegal for anyone to give lighted cigars to dogs, cats, and
> > other domesticated animals kept as pets.
> >
> >
> > Indiana
> > **Bathing is prohibited during the winter.
> > **Citizens are not allowed to attend a movie house or theater
> > nor ride in a public streetcar within four hours after eating
> > garlic.
> >
> >
> > Iowa
> > **Kisses may last for as much as, but no more than, five
> > minutes.
> >
> >
> > Kentucky
> > **By law, anyone who has been drinking is "sober" until he or
> > she "cannot hold onto the ground."
> > **It is illegal to transport an ice cream cone in your pocket.
> >
> >
> > Louisiana
> > **It is illegal to rob a bank and then shoot at the bank teller
> > with a water pistol.
> > **Biting someone with your natural teeth is "simple assault,"
> > while biting someone with your false teeth is "aggravated
> > assault."
> >
> >
> > Massachusetts
> > **Mourners at a wake may not eat more than three sandwiches.
> > **Snoring is prohibited unless all bedroom windows are closed
> > and securely locked.
> > **An old ordinance declares goatees illegal unless you first pay
> > a special license fee for the privilege of wearing one in public.
> > **Taxi drivers are prohibited from making love in the front seat
> > of their taxi during their shifts.
> >
> >
> > Nebraska
> > **A parent can be arrested if her/his child cannot hold back a
> > burp during a church service.
> >
> >
> > New Mexico
> > **Females are strictly forbidden to appear unshaven in public.
> >
> >
> > New York
> > **A fine of $25 can be levied for flirting. This old law
> > specifically prohibits men from turning around on any city street
> > and looking "at a woman in that way." A second conviction for
> > a crime of this magnitude calls for the violating male to be
> > forced to wear a "pair of horse-blinders" wherever and
> > whenever he goes outside for a stroll.
> >
> >
> > North Dakota
> > **Beer and pretzels can't be served at the same time in any bar
> > or restaurant.
> >
> >
> > Ohio
> > **Women are prohibited from wearing patent leather shoes in
> > public.
> >
> >
> > Oklahoma
> > **Violators can be fined, arrested, or jailed for making ugly
> > faces at a dog.
> > **Females are forbidden from doing their own hair without
> > being licensed by the state.
> > **Dogs must have a permit signed by the mayor in order to
> > congregate in groups of three or more on private property.
> >
> >
> > Pennsylvania
> > **A special cleaning ordinance bans homemakers from hiding
> > dirt and dust under a rug in a dwelling.
> > **No man may purchase alcohol without written consent from
> > his wife.
> >
> >
> > Texas
> > **A city ordinance states that a person cannot go barefoot
> > without first obtaining a special five-dollar permit.
> > **It is illegal to take more than three sips of beer at a time
> > while standing.
> >
> >
> > Vermont
> > **Lawmakers made it obligatory for everybody to take at least
> > one bath each week- - on Saturday night.
> >
> >
> > Washington
> > **All lollipops are banned.
> > **A law to reduce crime states: "It is mandatory for a motorist
> > with criminal intentions to stop at the city limits and telephone
> > the chief of police as he is entering the town.
> >
> >
> > West Virginia
> > **No children may attend school with their breath smelling of
> > "wild onions."
Joseph Nechvatal @ Paris
http://www.dom.de/arts/artists/jnech/
http://www.cybertheque.fr/galerie/jnech
--- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
--------------57C27F1A4C1A--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:49:35 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: uncle
Hi this is Adam DeGraff, author of Uncle. I'm pleased that Bill has payed
consideration to my book. If anyone would like a copy then send me four
bucks and I'll send one out to you. Right now I'm over at Kevin Killian's
house using his account, but here's my address,
Adam DeGraff
530 Page #2
San Francisco, CA 80525
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:54:53 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Emily Lloyd <emilyl@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Did you know that in.....]
You see, I just *knew* there was a perfectly good reason for why it never
even crossed my mind to apply to the Writers' Workshop in Iowa...emily
Pierre wrote:
> Subject: Did you know that in.....
> > > Iowa
> > > **Kisses may last for as much as, but no more than, five
> > > minutes.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:56:46 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Keith Tuma <KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: harryette mullen
Anybody out there have either an e-mail address or a phone number for
Harryette Mullen?
I'd be grateful; backchannel please.
Keith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:31:18 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: uncle
>Hi this is Adam DeGraff, author of Uncle. I'm pleased that Bill has payed
>consideration to my book. If anyone would like a copy then send me four
>bucks and I'll send one out to you. Right now I'm over at Kevin Killian's
>house using his account, but here's my address,
>
> Adam DeGraff
> 530 Page #2
> San Francisco, CA 80525
This is Dodie--the above is not Adam's zip code, at least not in this
incarnation. His real zip code is: 94117.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:58:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics and poets
George Bowering wrote:
>Whew! Where is this all going?
Damned if I know. Meanwhile it's muddy as hell outside and nobody I know
here has power at home. (Duke, from where I write, has its own generator.)
I'm going to go try to find some ice; clearly I intervened in the middle of
a discussion
that was going on fine without me and will continue to do so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:47:02 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: NOT Re: critics & poets
Uh, I'm just going through my poetics mail box after a busy week. I've got
nearly 200 messages here, I'm up to sometime Wednesday or so & I've looked
ahead & see LOTS of discussion about the poet/critic conundrum.
Being neither I find this abstractly interesting in some vague way, but I
was wondering if there were any folks who had further reports on the
Assembling Alternatives conference as such. The first few were good but
then things got sort of kidnapped.
Maybe people just didn't change their subject lines & I'll be pleasantly
surprised as I read ahead, but why do I doubt this is the case?
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:16:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOT Re: critics & poets
look at the headings labelled assembling alternatives. also, starting
late last night and early this morning, messages started blazing in
detailing new hampshire... oh yeah, also some headered "UNH"
e
ps
i wasn't there.
psps
at the conference
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:40:58 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
At 8:15 AM 9/7/96, Joel Kuszai wrote:
>Why are
>poets required, asked, invited--and now I would say, "compelled" to speak
>at all? Perhaps there is a historical reason for this, or a structural
>one. At New York, the presence of grad students from Brown, Buffalo, and
>elsewhere explains why the critical and theoretical discourse may have
>such a cultural cache. In fact, the poets of this orbit may be inclined to
>have theoretical work to do, axes to grind, or otherwise a need to involve
>and invest in such discouses. But is that something that everyone (even of
>this group) shares?
This is Dodie, and yes, Joel, I think you're pointing in an important
direction. Last night was the SF Art Institute's faculty cocktail party
(it was hard to believe even when I was there that I was at such an event),
and I got a ride home from another visiting faculty member, a local
photographer whose work evidences a fine intelligence, each photo evoking
history, politics, emotion and the materiality of the photographic
processes involved. So, we were discussing our classes and our students,
and I started talking about art/writing that came out of a theoretical
basis. He denied that his work had a theoretical basis. When I countered
with, look at all the stuff that you have drawn on in making your work, he
replied that his work was conceptual--not theoretical. At first I thought:
we're just playing around with vocabulary here. But, I wonder. Perhaps
"conceptual" would be a useful model, as a writer, to adopt--as a way of
being "smart" without having to walk around spouting abstractions like a
little professor. And yes I am aware that many Conceptual Artists are
fountains of spouting theory--theory which has had more of an impact on my
writing than poetic theory--because it always seems to point back to the
world. When I hear the word conceptual (as opposed to theoretical) I get
more of a sense of a rationale that is organic to the work, growing from
inside rather than pasted onto it.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:39 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
>damon writes:
>
>> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30
>> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts"
>
>Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin
>shoes with spike heels!
>
>Kinkily,
>Mike
>mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems.
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:42 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: the object
>George Bowering wrote:
>
>> But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy,
>> and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time
>> getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was
>> disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that
>> he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD.
>
>I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't
>tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same.
>Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries?
>
>Rachel
Ah jeez. Herb said "She'll never notice."
I said, "Come on, look at the whole side of it there."
Herb said,"In the stete she's in when she goes for the object, she's not
going to notice, I tell you."
I said, "Let's take up a collection from all the Slam Poets that enjoyed
it, and buy her a new one."
Herb said, "Oh yeah, george? You know where to get them?"
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:46 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: confidential to Mark Wallace
>Mark Wallace wrote:
>
>> Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this
>> communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming
>> to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take
>> their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts
>> at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project.
>>
>> BEWARE ALL CLONES!
>
>Mark, as I said to you before, please seek help as soon as possible.
>Your psychosis is advancing by leaps and bounds and I don't want to
>hear that you turned up on the "raped by aliens" episode of _Geraldo_.
>
>Rachel
Hey, Mark! Me too! Hey, they got me when my car broke down on the road
between Seattle and Concrete. It was awful. There were 23 of them, and I
can remember every minute of that night. What happened to you? Did they
make you promise the same thing thay made me promise? You think that's a
binding promise now? I am so glad that this happened to someone else. I was
thinking....well, you know....
George Bowering.
"I'm more than human,
2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!"
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
--David Meltzer
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:24:09 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: UNH:"can't we all get along?"
yikes! What do people who were not at the AA in NH make of all the banter about
poets vs. critics (World Wide Wrestling time?) going on this list?
I for one, had a great time. The nicest thing about the event was that people,
on the vast whole, were REALLY NICE AND FRIENDLY TO EACH OTHER. This is a change
from the landshark scene at MLA and the eyeing of the "enemy talent" one sees at
most poetry gatherings. I met many nice people and came away with new friends
and contacts. In this crapped-out climate, that's saying a lot.
Romana's great accomplishment was bringing together an international gathering
of (mostly) english-speaking poets. In an age of faxes, email, web-sites and
(comparitivly) inexpensive International phonecalls, UK and NA poets seem to
have less contact w/ each other than in the previous generation. Hopefully this
conference will start the lines of conversation going.
As w/ any large enterprise, their were good and bad papers/readings. Was
impressed by Rae Armatrout, Denise Riley & Mile Champion's sets (plenty others
but not thinking so well here). Good conversations, etc.
My take on Marjorie's points: for myself and most poets not in academia, the
conference fees & etc. came out of our pockets. We get no professional "credit"
in attending nor do we have an institution that will reimburse some of our fees.
A number of poets simply crashed because they didn't have the funds to be
present. I don't think critics were treated as 2nd class citizens, most of us
poets are happy that there are scholars interested in the writers we care about.
There are smaller quibbles. The honkyfest aspect of the event bothered most of
us -- and the lack of a forum to discuss why racial issue were such a small part
ofthe proceedings. I also felt that the range of American poetries presented was
VERY narrow, comapared to the range of UK poetry presented. A shame as Susan
Wheller, Marjorie Welish and Simon Pettit were present & did not read. Ignored
were US publishers, like Geoff Young & Peter Gannick, who both live in New
England.
I was also surprised that Charles Simic was not asked to read (I hear he was
wandering about, as he is a prof at UNH). We have to get over this our
side/their side thing. Simic continues with a surrealist tradition, from much of
our current experimentalist work has some origin in. Is this some problem w/ the
current configurations of Language Poetry? In the late 70's, there was an
acknowledgement of origins -- now it seems that L.poetry arrived by two meterors
that landed in SF and Manhattan. --
I think we need two, three, many AA's. Poets and critics need to meet and just
talk about things. It is a rare person, with the energy and imagination to pull
something like AA off. Thanks again, Romamna
Joel Lewis
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:07:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <trbell@USIT.NET>
Subject: Conceptual crit?
Comments: cc: au462@cleveland.freenet.edu
At 03:40 PM 9/7/96 +0100, Kevin Killian wrote:
>and I started talking about art/writing that came out of a theoretical
>basis. He denied that his work had a theoretical basis. When I countered
>with, look at all the stuff that you have drawn on in making your work, he
>replied that his work was conceptual--not theoretical. At first I thought:
>we're just playing around with vocabulary here. But, I wonder. Perhaps
>"conceptual" would be a useful model, as a writer, to adopt--as a way of
>being "smart" without having to walk around spouting abstractions like a
>little professor. And yes I am aware that many Conceptual Artists are
>fountains of spouting theory--theory which has had more of an impact on my
>writing than poetic theory--because it always seems to point back to the
>world. When I hear the word conceptual (as opposed to theoretical) I get
>more of a sense of a rationale that is organic to the work, growing from
>inside rather than pasted onto it.
>
>Dodie
>
the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as
something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities
we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the
micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance
for real change."
Perhaps, the issue is not critic/poet/psychologist (my particular curse)
but consumer/creator (critics and readers can and should create) or
theoretician/concepter?
I would be interested in hearing more about conceptual crit, active
reading, etc.
tom
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:08:08 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tenney Nathanson <tenney@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject: slightly awake
Alan (Golding)
late here but yes, still awake enough to want to take you up on yr offer to
provide copy of your paper to interested parties.
am MIME and UUENCODE capable (and can dance!) if that's usable.
all best,
Tenney
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:15:29 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tenney Nathanson <tenney@AZSTARNET.COM>
Subject: nope
>Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:56:46 EST
>From: Keith Tuma <KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU>
>Subject: harryette mullen
>
>Anybody out there have either an e-mail address or a phone number for
>Harryette Mullen?
>
>I'd be grateful; backchannel please.
>
>
>Keith
no.
but: (as mentioned a couple months back): am going to do /MUSE & Drudge/ in
ug class in a couple months, a bit nervously (apparently we ordered Gil's
last 30 copies?), and would welcome insights or leads about Mullen's work.
Tenney
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 06:40:06 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
George Bowering added ("I'm more into...")
>
> >damon writes:
> >
> >> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30
> >> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts"
> >
> >Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin
> >shoes with spike heels!
> >
> >Kinkily,
> >Mike
> >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
>
> I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems.
That's what he says for public consumption, but stripped down I hear
it's all lacy underthings and Adelaide Crapsey.
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:11:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Schultz <SSchu30844@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: to Mark Nowak
Dear Mark--I'd appreciate a backchannel message that would include your
address. In short, I never got that book...
all best, Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:39:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: to Mark Nowak
hi susan, mark isn't on poetix right now but i forwarded yr msg to him...bests,
maria d
In message <960908101114_518199232@emout17.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> Dear Mark--I'd appreciate a backchannel message that would include your
> address. In short, I never got that book...
>
> all best, Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 08:54:50 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the object
George Bowering wrote:
>
> >George Bowering wrote:
> >
> >> But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy,
> >> and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time
> >> getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was
> >> disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that
> >> he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD.
> >
> >I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't
> >tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same.
> >Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries?
> >
> Ah jeez. Herb said "She'll never notice."
> I said, "Come on, look at the whole side of it there."
> Herb said,"In the stete she's in when she goes for the object, she's not
> going to notice, I tell you."
> I said, "Let's take up a collection from all the Slam Poets that enjoyed
> it, and buy her a new one."
> Herb said, "Oh yeah, george? You know where to get them?"
I guess that's why you won the Governor General's Award for Fiction,
George. But I heard a very different story from a three-time slam
queen from Saskatoon whose name would not be unknown to you. She says
that you and Herb talked incessantly about opening a toy and poesy
shoppe called The Passion Bower, with a special emphasis on rare
editions of Ron Silliman, and a line of leather gear you liked to
call "Mistress Marjorie."
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:02:21 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: poet critic critic poet...
well i guess i'll have to be a bit gadfly-ish and go on record as saying
(with absolutely no ill-intent directed at a conference i didn't attend,
but wish i had) that the poet-critic thread produced a remarkable amount of
dissonance, hence that it probably remains a real bone of contention, hence
that it's probably worth continued gab (esp. when one considers that a
majority of critics hereabouts are probably academics, and that a goodly
number of poets hereabouts may not be)...
i understand that there are productive and counterproductive tensions in
any discourse community, network, what have you... and that this list may
not be able to sustain any further discussion along these lines... but i'd
still aver that there's something worth considering here, esp. after
reading ron s.'s post... me, i'm still looking for alternatives to current
critical practice, so defined, and to current poetries, so defined... and
i'm still looking to find ways to get critics as well as poets to talk
about the intellection (conceptual, theoretical, etc.) that goes
hand-in-hand with poetry and criticism, so defined...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:07:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: fetishized texts
Giorgio Agamben, in _Stanzas_ I think, has a great passage where he
discusses fetishization as the liberation of the object from the
limitations of narrowly determined human use into a realm of
undetermined connections and pleasures. From this perspective, the
fetishized text is a text freed from the slavery of uses (unless, of
course, like George, it's into handcuffs.)
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:11:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not
In-Reply-To: <199609081807.OAA28074@chass.utoronto.ca>
Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the
spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"--
so what do you gotta do to get to first base?
Gwyn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:37:05 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not
>Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the
>spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"--
>
>so what do you gotta do to get to first base?
>
>Gwyn
Hit em in the balls.
Oops, that gets you thrown out of the game, doesn't it. I guess you gotta
hit the ball they throw at you within the spatial limits pre-assigned, with
enough unpredictability or power that your "hit" isn't "caught," and then
run down a narrowly defined path until you are "safe".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:11:26 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: fetishized texts
In message <199609081807.OAA28074@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> Giorgio Agamben, in _Stanzas_ I think, has a great passage where he
> discusses fetishization as the liberation of the object from the
> limitations of narrowly determined human use into a realm of
> undetermined connections and pleasures. From this perspective, the
> fetishized text is a text freed from the slavery of uses (unless, of
> course, like George, it's into handcuffs.)
>
> Mike
> mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
tooshay! nice work (if u cn get it), mike. i like the complication of the
scene w/ the positive use of "fetish." liberate all handcuffs. chains of the
world unite; you have nothing to lose but your workers and use value, etc.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:21:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Romana Christina Huk <rch@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
On Fri., 6 Sep 1996, Marjorie Perloff wrote:
>Romana (and others)--I think you're absolutely right and I wasn't
>"totally negative" at all, just raising some key issues. You're right
>that the real subject was meant to be, should have been, what made some
>of these poetries "alternative." But do you feel we really discussed
>how, why, where, when they were alternative?
>What IS the difference between say, Paul Muldoon, Eavan Boland, Medh
>Megkukian (can't spell right?) and the Irish poets at the conference?
>This is not a rhetorical question--I would honestly like to know.
>And where do US/ UK poetries come together, diverge, etc? I hope we keep
>that ball rolling.
Thanks, Marjorie, for these questions, which I think are key; I'll start
the ball rolling with some responses from my perspective and hope that
others (especially those who know the Irish scene better than I) will
take it up.
(And no, I _don't_ think we got enough chance to really discuss these
things at the conference; I'm grieved that I couldn't make the event be
what I'd hoped it would be -- a real exchange between poets thought to be
"alternative" in their various contexts but obviously different from one
another given the differing cultural/historical spaces in which they use
their English. Maybe now, post-conference, the talk will start....)
The first simple answer to your question about the Irish poets is that
those present at the conference are _perceived_ to be ones working
outside the powerful publishing houses (Paul, Eavan and Medbh all publish
with presses like Oxford, Faber, etc. (though Eavan also works with
Carcanet, where ed Michael Schmidt is beginning to do things like publish
Miles Champion and print interviews like the one I did with Denise Riley
in his mainstream mag _PN Review_)). James Mays at University College
Dublin helped me put together a group of "alternative" poets (James is
the one who's probably going to get Susan Howe over to Ireland for a
stint at UCD); I already knew the work of Maurice Scully and Catherine
Walsh, but the others that came to NH were new to me as well.
I think the differences between Paul Muldoon's work and that of the
experimentalists at the conference are less easy to draw than those
between Eavan Boland's and Medbh McGuckian's work and the same. That's
why I wanted Paul at the conference; he was actually planning to come
until family responsibilities persuaded him otherwise. He doesn't think
of himself as "experimental" -- wanted me to "name off some of those
folk" when I saw him here in NH in the winter -- but I think that poems
like "Madoc," which Marjorie mentioned, rely on disjunctive practices and
use of language qua language to an extent that the term is helpful. (All
that play in "Madoc" with the "epic" of philosophy itself, done by
throwing in its way the other disciplines from which it has tried to
separate itself -- history, linguistics, even geography....) What
interests me, though, is the different imperative in the work that
disallows complete disjuncture (or the sort of situation in which
the impact of the poem rests
wholly in its unmaking and commentary on/foregrounding of language) and
instead begins to tease out parallels between imperial, colonial and
postcolonial articulations of history. I'm indebted to Clair Wills's
fine book on Irish work (_Improprieties_) in my readings of poets like
Paul; she makes me wonder whether we can possibly have what Ken Edwards
wondered about in a recent post -- "a common politics of poetic form" --
in English-speaking contexts so vastly different, one from the other, in
their relationships to language, "community" and political project.
I don't think disjunctive form is the only or even best way to identify
an alternative poetry, though it might identify the culture from which
it comes. I've just written on Susan Howe's poems as compared to Eavan
Boland's and Denise Riley's, arguing that the forms as derived from Olson
don't necessarily make her work more "radical" in impact than that of the
other two but do tend to make her more vulnerable to _different_ kinds of
contradictions and romanticisms embedded in our poetic tradition. The
word as thing separated from its discursive environment -- whether that
be class or territory of speakers -- seems to get less use in Irish and
U.K. work that I know, for differing reasons in each context; the poems
often sound less disruptive of syntax but the "alternative" trajectory of
their materials should be unmistakable. Getting back to Marjorie's
question, I'm not sure I always see it in Medbh's work, as syntactically
complex as critics like to describe it as being. (Clair Wills makes a
good counterargument to mine in her book.) And Eavan, in poems aside from
"Outside History," which I think is an astonishing piece of work, often
seems to operate through a wholly unproblematic relationship to language
and its sincere expression of feelings. I can't imagine her writing the
first poem that Randolph Healy read, for example; certainly not any read
by Maurice Scully or Catherine Walsh (the latter working within what
seems an Anglo-American-influenced mode). But I agree with others who
have said that perhaps Geoffrey Squires, one of the Irish contingent,
seems to be writing in a more conventional fashion, though I could see
that what the British critic/poet Harriet Tarlo had to say about "radical
landscape" poetry in northern England might force me to revise that
opinion. His poem "This," which I tried to help him present, is an
interesting piece insofar as it seems to dissolve as you read it -- an
intriguing thing to happen in a "landscape" poem -- though its internal
contradictions and perceptive angst are still too muted to be caught by a
listening audience, I think.
I'm going to stop here and let someone else jump in -- especially on the
U.K./U.S. relationship. But I just want to reiterate one thing for all
of you who were, like myself, troubled by the lack of racial diversity at
the conference (I'm sorry that that sounds like such "universitese"). I
had invited as many people as I knew of from the other ethnic groups on
this side of the Atlantic (there are only one or two who would call them-
selves "experimental" overseas). At the outset, Nate Mackey and Harryette
Mullen were part of my "advisory committee"; neither ended up coming,
however. I feel badly that I couldn't do a better job of finding people
to discuss the issues, which, as those of you who received the information
know, were part of the main agenda (under "blindspots and cultural
chauvinisms"). I think the problem of reading across cultures should be
discussed in tandem with the problem of reading "alternatives" within
differing ethnic communities; I'm new to the terrain (though I need to
think through the problem of total whiteness in the U.K. experimental
community before the MLA conference and the paper I'm supposed to give
there!).
Romana Huk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:21:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carnography <scrypt@INTERPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
Thomas Bell:
> the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as
> something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities
> we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the
> micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance
> for real change."
What is the difference between fetishizing "The Canon" and fetishizing zine/
small press culture? Either way, one foregrounds the idea that the text
is defined not by the reader's experience of it, but rather by its location:
by the context of the text's mere *publication*.
Also: Aren't we in a position to renounce, say, Voltaire (deliberately
obvious example), precisely because we've grown up privileged enough
to have been taught _Candide_? I would not argue that it is my place
to deny another student that same privilege: familiarity with a text
that is both influential and commonly referred to throughout the history
of world literature. (And no, in this context--in the context of literary
influence--the fiction of Robert Gluck is not as important historically
as the satires of Voltaire.) I would argue that, generally, it is more
useful for a student to know Voltaire than it is for h/e/i/r/m to know
*my* published work. With all due respect, isn't the fetishization
of non-autonomy predicated on an elitist preconception of autonomy
in the first place? How did we arrive at this lofty position--to be
able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist
and which is not?
All the best,
Rob Hardin
http://www.interport.net/~scrypt
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:30:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: fwd: umn tenure code revisions
Comments: To: zemka@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU, ecohen@zodiac.rutgers.edu,
carlston@leland.Stanford.EDU, Chang-En@hermes.bc.edu,
JDILEO@ucs.indiana.edu, czpg@musica.mcgill.ca, agillman@ACS1.BU.EDU,
ucnsk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu, KLinde@cms.cc.wayne.edu,
nate_mackey@macmail.ucsc.edu, karenm@walker.mus.mn.us,
manowak@alex.stkate.edu, perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu,
jays@sirius.com, von6@midway.chicago.edu, varahar@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA
friends: for those of you who've asked for further details, and also because
i've been requested to by the folks who are spearheading faculty opposition to
the abolition of tenure at the U of MN, i'm forwarding the faculty consultative
committee's response to the threat to tenure at the U of MN. it could happen to
you too...
bests, maria d
From: Tom Walsh <tfw@mnhepo.hep.umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:40:54 -0500
To: ufa@mnhepo.hep.umn.edu
Subject: National Message
The following email was sent to all University of Minnesota
faculty by the chairs of the Senate committess responsible
for the Minnesota tenure code. It was sent Friday, September
6, 1996. The mail header has been removed and a couple of
line breaks and tabs have been fixed. Otherwise, it is unchanged.
We are sending this to you for your information. The actual
new tenure code can be found in text form at
http://mnnt1.hep.umn.edu/ufa/, which will enable you to compare
this document with the code.
The new code was developed by the regents together with their
consultant Richard Chait and also Martin Michaelson of the
Washington, DC firm of Hogan & Hartson. As best we can tell,
the code was worked out between June and the release date of
September 5. We are not aware of anyone outside this group
who knew of the provisions before release.
We regard this code as the prototype of tenure revisions
which other university governing boards will attempt to
impose in coming years. It is therefore of national interest.
Paula Rabinowitz, Department of English
Thomas Walsh, Department of Physics
University Faculty Alliance
University of Minnesota
------------------------------
Dear Colleagues,
Our attempt to reach a compromise on revision of the Tenure
Regulations has failed. The Regents have proposed new amendments at their
meeting on Thursday. In effect, they have accepted the parts of the
Faculty Senate draft in which the faculty made compromises and rejected the
parts in which the administration recognized faculty concerns. Far
from being a compromise, the new proposal goes well beyond any prior
administration proposal.
The Regents have asked that the faculty complete review of their new
draft within a month, so that they can take final action on October 10.
The draft contains the most substantial changes in tenure policy that have
been put forward here in over 50 years. To meet this hectic schedule, the
faculty committees will meet in the week of September 16, and the Faculty
Senate will meet on the first day of classes, September 26.
The Regents put forward their proposal over President Hasselmo's
strenuous opposition. Given the manner in which the proposal was prepared,
the extremely limited opportunity for faculty consultation on the draft, and
their unwillingness to discuss with us the merits of various proposals, we
must conclude that they intend to move forward on this proposal.
At this point, we can only summarize the major parts of the proposal.
Other details will be provided later. Major points are:
1. FIRING FACULTY IN CASE OF PROGRAM CHANGE. The proposal eliminates
the tenure protection currently available in cases of program change. It
provides:
--60 days' notice of programmatic change. (There is no other
provision for faculty participation in these decisions.)
--reassignment or retraining of tenured faculty, unless "in the
University's judgment" this would be "not practicable." (Note that it does
not require that reassignment or retrainging be "impracticable," but only
that the "University's judgment" be such. Give the distinction of
the Regents' Washington lawyers who prepared this language, it is
apparent that the intent was to exclude any subsequent review of the
decision.)
--one year's notice of termination be given.
--there is no definition of "program," so a single faculty member
could be targeted by defining that individual's specialization for
elimination.
2. REDUCTIONS IN BASE PAY. The proposal eliminates the guarantee of
base pay contained in the current regulations. Instead, it would provide
that "Absent reasons found to be compelling by the Board of Regents or its
delegate," "it is expected that" base pay would be protected. Again,
carefully note the drafting. The first of these clauses does NOT require
"compelling reasons" before reducing base pay; it only requires that the
administrator STATE that his reasons are compelling. The second clause
does not guarantee base salary, but only articulates a general and vague
expectation in that regard. The language eliminates any legal claim to
base pay.
The language, as drafted, would permit reductions of salary targeted
at single individuals. (The statement in the Star-Tribune this
morning that such pay cuts could only be imposed on groups of
faculty, not on individuals, was apparently based on the oral
statements of the Regents' lawyer in describing the plan. An
examination of the actual text reveals no such limitation.) Indeed,
the new languageprovides no effective protection of
salary. The provision also cuts off any review of such issues by the
Judicial Committee, even in cases of alleged violation of academic
freedom.
3. POST TENURE REVIEW. The post tenure review process has been
substantially rewritten. Rather than the remedial process we proposed,
seeking to improve the performance of faculty experiencing difficulties,
the provision in now primarily punitive in orientation, emphasizing
dismissal and salary reduction. It now permits annual 10% salary
reductions ad infinitum. Many of the procedural protections have been
removed.
4. FACULTY DISCIPLINE. The faculty discipline section represents a
radical departure from existing rules. It introduces surprising new
language. For example, faculty members may be punished if they do not
"maintain . . . a proper attitude of industry and cooperation with others
within and without the University community." Discipline, including
dismissal may be imposed when "commonly held standards of conduct" (not
further specified) are violated. A new ground for firing a faculty member,
"other grave misconduct" is added.
A whole new category of "lesser sanctions" is created, including
PAY CUTS (which may be permanent and are not limited in amount)
and suspensions from duty. These may be
imposed by the administrator after notice and an opportunity to respond,
but the discipline "need not involve formal proceedings of any kind." For
example, this would authorize a dean to impose a permanent 50% pay cut
without a hearing before an impartial body. The Judicial Committee is also
excluded from review of these actions, although the faculty member
might file a grievance with an outside arbitrator.
5. JUDICIAL COMMITTEE PROCEDURES. Although access to the Judicial
Committee has been cut off in many cases--including many possible cases
involving academic freedom issues--new major restrictions are imposed upon
the operation of the Judicial Committee. These include:
--Judicial committee proceedings will be presided over by a law
officer, who must not be a faculty member.
--The President will no longer be required to respect the Judicial
Committee's report and recommendation. The current regulations contain a
legal limitation (he can overrule the committee only for "compelling reasons")
and a procedural check (he can do so only after meeting with the Judicial
Committee). The Regents' draft deletes both provisions, giving the
President total freedom to ignore the hearing panel's report.
--The new draft permits a dean to suspend a faculty member without
pay, in certain circumstances, while a proceeding to dismiss is underway.
* * *
Two other points should be made:
Some of the proposed changes track language in other universities'
tenure regulations. But those universities may have long-established
practices or other policies that effectively limit the exercise of the
power granted by the tenure codes there. If we adopt the bare language of
those universities, but not the other limitations that exist there,
we will be deviating sharply from the norm. There seems to be no
effort to simultaneously adopt the practices of other institutions.
Given the radical nature of these changes, this is not merely an
attempt to respond to the Faculty Senate proposals. It seeks to
impose a radical changes in the relations of faculty, administration,
and Regents. Given the controversy that has been generated, we must
assume that the Board intends to exercise fully the powers that they
are creating by these changes.
Take these proposals seriously and act accordingly. The Regents intend
to act on them on October 10.
Sincerely yours
FRED L. MORRISON, Professor of Law
MARY DEMPSEY, Professor of Biochemistry
VIRGINIA GRAY, Professor of Political Science
ED FOGELMAN, Professor of Political Science
DAN FEENEY, Professor of Small Animal
Clinical Science
Chairs of the respective Faculty Senate Committees
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:33:35 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
carnography rites:
..to be
able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist
and which is not?
i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical
head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next
project...bests to you, rob xo, md
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:40:39 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Romana Christina Huk <rch@HOPPER.UNH.EDU>
Subject: The Rutgers Conference
Before I forget, someone asked about the Rutgers conference on "Poetry
and the Public Sphere" which I have info. on. It's April 24-27, and the
person to call is Nick Yasinski (908-745-9685); fax: 908-932-1150.
Romana Huk
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:00:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: fwd: umn tenure code revisions
maria, esp. after reading item 4 (which warrants a collective FUCK YOU to
the regents) in conjunction with my rereading of late of _discipline and
punish_, sounds an awful lot like the sorts of pressures we've been
experiencing here at iit (and with only some success here at mitigating
such attempts---the jury is still out on revised tenure & promotion
procedures, esp. now that they've eliminated the position of provost on my
campus)...
thanx for sending that along, i'll spread it mself through other channels...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:28:24 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: UNH Again
Dear Alan Golding, Still awake at the end and wondering was that, in
there, DAVID Bromide at the conference? best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:45:32 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
>George Bowering added ("I'm more into...")
>>
>> >damon writes:
>> >
>> >> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30
>> >> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts"
>> >
>> >Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin
>> >shoes with spike heels!
>> >
>> >Kinkily,
>> >Mike
>> >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
>>
>> I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems.
>
>That's what he says for public consumption, but stripped down I hear
>it's all lacy underthings and Adelaide Crapsey.
>Rachel
Not really lacy, but they have to be well-made, and of superior quality. I
was taught this by Mark Wallace.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:27 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Assembling - Appreciations - Issues
Suddenly, it seems invidious to do what I first considered: to go through
the programme and pick out those papers or readings which struck me. I got
something from nearly everything I attended (and it was impossible, sadly,
to attend everything), especially since I still consider myself a
'sometime' or 'amateur' reader of this work. And there seems little real
benefit in reiterating a sense of the greatness of what we mostly agree is
great.
So pick out, instead, some work/issues which relate closely to your/our
specific concerns which might not otherwise have received some attentions
they deserve.
This isn't true of
- the first plenary session, esp. Peter Middleton and Keith Tuma, which
addressed a central concern of the conference: the differing
'contexts/histories/localities/institutions' of alternative poetries in
(primarily) the UK and US. I can't, don't dare attempt to summarize
Middleton or Tuma in a couple of sentences. I hardly dare to speak openly,
or to align myself anywhichhow. After, all, I write from UKania (see
Middleton). But I understand myself a little better, and can see how life
might be lived 'elsewhere'. If for no other reason the conference succeeded
because many participants did raise, address and discuss - formally and
informally - these issues, an explicit aim of the organizers.
- The fine reading of post-Mao poetry from mainland China and its contexts
by Jeff Twitchell-Waas, along with the spectacular readings of particular
works of so-called Chinese 'language' poets (and in a separate, second
paper [critical over-compensation foul!?] a couple of well-known North
American 'language' luminaries) by Ming-Qian Ma. The Chinese stuff is a
special, quasi-professional interest of my own and came as unexpected bonus
in the AA context (in which I particiapated for other reasons). Neither
speaker addressed the question, but I now wonder whether/how the inclusion
of papers on contemporary Chinese poetry, and the presence of a fine
Chinese critic, serves to balance some of the remarks/criticisms raised (in
the conference's 'postcolonial' moments) about the apparent failure of AA
to embrace conspicuously absent alternative poetries. And I answer myself:
it doesn't seem to? Why don't we see the inclusion/exclusion of Chinese
poetry as a race/identity issue? Why isn't Chinese poetry black poetry? Is
it because, as the translator Arthur Cooper put it, the Chinese are 'the
other Greeks'? Because theirs is *the* other imperial culture, such that we
entertain an absolute disregard and an absolute reverence for Chinese
culture
*at one and the same time*? Our subordinating/post-colonizing racism seems
to dissolve or get lost in the orientalism we project onto Chinese culture
as it is reflected back to us - instaneously - as occidentalism. There is
something of critical/political importance in this which I/we/they/you must
think about.
- The opportunity to meet and talk with other poets (Jim Rosenberg, Loss
Glazier, Chris Funkhouser) working in/with electronic media. A confirmation
of the sense that the poetics we may encounter or develop 'beyond
codexspace' relate strongly to the poetics of the writing which was well
represented at the conference, or as Loss Glazier has already put it so
well (his caps), 'the formal issues about writing at the heart of
experimental poetries ARE THE SAME ISSUES being explored by the literary
electronic media.'
- Finally, and most interestingly to me, I came away from the conference,
unexpectedly, with a new sense of the centrality of performance,
performance writing, writing as performance. So many of the finest readers
were reading-performance (Retallack, Scalapino, Spahr, Robertson, Harryman,
Bergvall, Templeton, and/or in a
direct-(gendered)-speed-voice-embodied-linkage of language/performance:
Raworth, Champion). Because, perhaps, concerns shared in performance might
allow the uncompromising inclusion of those absent other alternatives (?in
the same sort of way that language poetry has been able to [unexpectedly?]
ally/align itself with sound/concrete/visual precursors and colleagues).
Because performance also characterizes qualities of the performative (and
even, in a strictly *limited* sense 'interactive') literacy which is made
possible or accessible by electronic media, leading to
- the performance of literary objects
(themselves).
- - - - - >
John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}]
^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^
1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK
Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk
http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/
< - - - - -
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:54:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not
>Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the
>spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"--
>
>so what do you gotta do to get to first base?
>
>Gwyn
Well, if it's with me, just buy me a pastrami sandwich and get me a little
drunk on belgian beer.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:14 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets)
I'm not sure about this equal time for poets and critics thing, although I
absolutely agree that we should all be answerable and that criticism may be
as artful and fulfulling as any other form of life. I liked what Romana Huk
said in reply, 'I must say that the problem never crossed my mind. I
thought: all day to the conference (with an hour and a half for afternoon
readings) and all night to the readings. What would have been more fair?
Most of the poets coming to the conference felt that they needed to read as
well as give papers, so I accommodated them to the extent that I could,
never even thinking this might be a problem for the critics.'
Then I think: if giving more/equal time to the critics means having to
listen to still more written-papers-read-out-loud (and with them *still*
running over their 20 mins, eating into precious [framed] discussion time),
then *hold on*. Bring back the Cultural Revolution! and let's institute
instead an absolute ban on the ill- or misuse of a lively and flexible
medium -- the talk, the lecture, the oration. If we have to listen to even
more fine criticism then let's at least agree to leave our papers in our
brief cases when we meet and talk face to faces.
Sometimes I can't understand how the reading-of-papers form has survived,
unless it is as the most refined example of the internalization of
literacy, muting a paralysed orality in the very act of a particular form
of utterance. I'm not being logocentric about this (honest). And I
understand the need both to defend oneself against the fear of uncertain,
indeterminate exposure, and to display the pleasures and refinements of a
considered literacy (as in most of the poetry we heard _read_), but so much
potential seems to be swept aside by the relentless eyes-down read-through.
Some of the speakers (poets mostly I think) made gestural, performative
(see subject line: 'Assembling - Appreciations - Issues') reference to this
(perennial) problem -- cris cheek and, as Bill L. mentioned, Fiona
Templeton as she (literally) undressed the panel-bearing table (which Steve
McC. later reclad and regendered).
If 'genres are fluid, hybrid, etc. etc.' (M.P.) and the work of poets and
critics share the same spaces, then at least let's continue to problematize
the singularly lifeless pseudo-orality of the 'read paper'.
- - - - - >
John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}]
^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^
1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK
Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk
http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/
< - - - - -
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:29:47 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire
Judy Roitman's assumption about umpires that they are for base- or
sfot- ball shd not so lightly disregard the possibility of
Emersonian cricket. best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:03:58 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: fwd: umn tenure code revisions
joe a writes:
> maria, esp. after reading item 4 (which warrants a collective FUCK YOU to
> the regents) in conjunction with my rereading of late of _discipline and
> punish_, sounds an awful lot like the sorts of pressures we've been
> experiencing here at iit (and with only some success here at mitigating
> such attempts---the jury is still out on revised tenure & promotion
> procedures, esp. now that they've eliminated the position of provost on my
> campus)...
>
> thanx for sending that along, i'll spread it mself through other channels...
>
yeah, thanks you, joe, sorry all for co-opting the precious list-space for
matters decidedly unpoetic, but if you'd all just forward the msg to all the
other lists yr on i'd be most grateful, or to administrators at your respective
institutions, so we can get some censure of these folks going...and then not
another word from me on the subject, i promise.bests, md
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:13:36 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Dan Davidson
We have some sad news to deliver. San Francisco poet Daniel Davidson died
Saturday night, apparently by his own hand, after many years of pain
following open heart surgery. Details are sketchy at this point, but more
detailed obituaries will follow.
I (Dodie) met Dan in the mid-80s (actually got to know him, since I'd seen
him around) at the UCSF medical center where I was a temp secretary and he
was coming frequently for follow-up for his heart surgery. He and I spend
many an evening together discussing writing, living, music, art (and
drugs). We were both avid about Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time"
and sometimes we'd shut up long enough to listen to it at his apartment on
Haight Street. I've never seen anyone live more grandly on a fixed income
than Dan--he was amazing. Bringing home castoff clothing from the
Salvation Army, dyeing them black, and cutting such a dashing figure. At
that time Dan hadn't published much, but shortly afterward he became an
important figure in the Bay Area writing scene, writing, giving readings,
curating series. He taught an after-school program for small children at
Small Press Traffic when it was still on 24th Street.
I (Kevin) remember Dan always in the audience at every kind of poetry
reading you could imagine, always with his own determined take on things.
Perhaps because he came to poetry late, he was burning up with poetry
fever, and he could be exhausting in his naked need to know more. And
because he had this plastic heart valve he often thought of himself as not
having much time. He was generous to a wide variety of young writers and
attentive to his elders. I was glad to be able to write a "blurb" for his
first book "Product." In recent years I didn't see him around much.
Couldn't figure it out. The last reading I saw him give was with Bob
Perelman at New Langton Arts, and when was that? At least 2 years ago. He
shied away from all the events he used to shine at. Last month when Anselm
Berrigan and Katie Lederer left for parts East, Dan came to the party for
them--still Byronic, still dashing, but gray, gray.... and he and I talked
then about this and that. God! The ironic thing is that he was scheduled
to participate in the "Proliferation 3" reading Dodie and Mary Burger are
holding at Small Press Traffic this coming Friday (the 13th). And now
their plans are to make it into some kind of memorial in his honor, I
guess.
Sorry to fill up the bandwidth with all this info about Dan and us, but as
you can see, we have the kind of grief that's hard to take hold of and make
sense of--a grief not unmixed with guilt. I know that the book Dan wrote
with Tom Mandel is coming out soon, the collaboration from Poets and Potes
Press of which he was so pleased and so proud. That's something, tho'
right now I don't know what.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:26:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Thomas Bell <trbell@USIT.NET>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? fetish?
Ron,
The problem may be with my elipses obscuring the quote, but I take
_passively accepted, consumed_ to be the operative words so that zines
could as you say become a fetish, but as lbd says, this is an example
of a self-determined culture, not _the_ self-determined culture, no?
all the best
tom
At 04:21 PM 9/8/96 -0400, Carnography wrote:
>Thomas Bell:
>
>> the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as
>> something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities
>> we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the
>> micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance
>> for real change."
>
>What is the difference between fetishizing "The Canon" and fetishizing zine/
>small press culture? Either way, one foregrounds the idea that the text
>is defined not by the reader's experience of it, but rather by its location:
>by the context of the text's mere *publication*.
>
>Also: Aren't we in a position to renounce, say, Voltaire (deliberately
>obvious example), precisely because we've grown up privileged enough
>to have been taught _Candide_? I would not argue that it is my place
>to deny another student that same privilege: familiarity with a text
>that is both influential and commonly referred to throughout the history
>of world literature. (And no, in this context--in the context of literary
>influence--the fiction of Robert Gluck is not as important historically
>as the satires of Voltaire.) I would argue that, generally, it is more
>useful for a student to know Voltaire than it is for h/e/i/r/m to know
>*my* published work. With all due respect, isn't the fetishization
>of non-autonomy predicated on an elitist preconception of autonomy
>in the first place? How did we arrive at this lofty position--to be
>able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist
>and which is not?
>
>All the best,
>
>Rob Hardin
>
>http://www.interport.net/~scrypt
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:08 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Cayley <cayley@SHADOOF.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Assembling - General - Respect!
[I've a number of brief reports/responses I'd like to make, on the
conference and to the subsequent discussions, and I've decided to separate
them into posts with, hopefully, indicative, relevant subject lines.]
This conference was a wonderful event. Romana Huk should *not* take herself
to task for any 'bad organization and lack of experience in running
conferences'. AA worked and it worked well. Both those of us fortunate
enough to be invited to contribute and those who were provoked or inspired
to attend were presented with a full, rich and various programme/art.
If there was insufficient *(formally) framed* discussion, if certain
issues/groups/persons went unrepresented, then this is also the
responsibility of us others, including those who were not there. In
conception and development an agenda seems full of potential; after the
meeting we are overwhelmed by the inevitable and arbitrary aspects of 'what
actually took place'. I know that Romana worked hard to try and convey to
contributors how they might focus on specific issues, but ...
No conference will ever cover the full range of (relevant) concerns which
at any one moment engages (even) any one of its participants. So what. No
participant ever seems to produce a contribution (or a reading of the
papers or talks) that is exactly what is asked/expected of her. So what.
The information:noise / art:noise ratio of this event was, imho, excellent.
Perhaps there is little more that can be expected of such a difficult form
as the 'conference', and its combination with a 'festival' (art:noise)
aspect is still all too rare and valuable.
Romana Huk deserves our heartfelt thanks and deep respect.
- - - - - >
John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}]
^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^
1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK
Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk
http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/
< - - - - -
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:38:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Marjorie Perloff <perloff@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 7 Sep 1996 to 8 Sep 1996
In-Reply-To: <199609090402.AAA21998@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Romana's analysis of the Irish situation is extremely helpful! Thanks,
Romana, I hope you'll write more on this topic. Your commentary really
explained a lot. I know a little bit about the attempt to bridge the gap
from Michael Schmidt at PN Review but now I know more.
Marjorie Perloff
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:13:54 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire
>Judy Roitman's assumption about umpires that they are for base- or
>sfot- ball shd not so lightly disregard the possibility of
>Emersonian cricket. best
>
>Tony Green,
>e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
What the heck is Emersonian Cricket?
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:07:04 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ira Lightman <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Assembling Alternative UK Criticism
I was really glad for Joe Amato's statement that
we could safely assume on this list that we're
not talking about most critics (Ron Silliman's
justified attacks on Altieri etc notwithstanding).
Because there still seems to be so much prejudice
against critics. I think it's groovy that, as
Romana puts out, the by now infamous unnamed
Irish poet did go away with new books to read.
But does that amount to an openness to those
books? Or are they simply (as Derrida says
critically about Freud's reading of The Emperor
Has No Clothes story as being essentially
about nakedness) going to use the "new" books to
stage repetitions of their old solipsisms?
A lot of Uk "linguistically innovative"
writers present a thinker as the guarantor
of their work, without letting you say "how,
given this and this", "why that thinker?",
"why do you think that's what that thinker
means?", a key idea for Derrida, one of the
finest poets living. This critic/poet issue
is crucial for current UK practice, because
there simply is less exchange than in the
US Language Writing scene. You can trace
the way that Language Writers gave each
other paradigms, accepting gracefully, not
being scared to resemble each other; where
UK poets often have to say "I saw it first,
or, if you did, I can't use it". This was
going to be the subject of the paper I
offered to Romana for AA, though there was
no money to go (and Romana battled to get
me there till a week before).
I'm *not* saying I critic wish to control this
situation and, if possible, somehow punish
bad behaviour; I'm actually saying that I
cherish poetic culture, and that critic-baiting
solipsism endangers it. People are so scared
of poetry and it is important to be careful
and scrupulous towards them. Many many poets,
in my opinion, unconsciously love this fear
of poetry in their audience and use it to
counterbalance their own fear of presenting
their work in public - but it would be better
if they did some confidence training! Otherwise,
the fearful reader comes into the reading and
is, I think, overwhelmed by the potentials
of what might be (as people are when first
hearing a piece of complex music longer
and more various than a pop song, Philip
Glass thus not included on the latter count);
"where might this go next? anywhere! madness!
revelation!" you hear the audience's brains
going. If a poet says "here is the return
of the Irish longpoem", many audience members
will take it in, without thinking what long
and short might mean, and repeat it to
others and by canon-idealism refuse to read
work that differs from that canon-definition;
and, again, I think many poets want this,
to pull up the ladder behind them, to be
the Last Poet. But it destroys poetic culture, it
privatises it round that one poet.
Sometimes I think, with Chris F perhaps?,
there should be no criticism *whatsoever*,
although I for one used Marjorie's books
as a bible/anthology (like a younger
generation carried The New American Poetry
round?) more than In The American Tree
(tho this has become my favourite
book, it took me years, literally, via
Marjorie, to get into it, to know how
to stand in it, to not feel scared and
lost and I want to go home).
But then this is why, as somebody
indicated shouldn't be said, poets
should be told as forcefully as critics
are being on this list (another false
dichotomy: poets are easily hurt,
critics can take it) to shut up;
no remarks at all. Or be more accurate.
Because either the former, silence,
or the latter, accuracy, respects the
fear of the newcomer but allows the
newcomer respect and space and slow
careful nurturing into poetic culture
(which is a way of being, as Cage
might have said, not a cult round an
author; it is the author's privilege
to facilitate it, to stimulate it not
frame it with one's art).
If it is
aggression by a critic, to say shut
up, it is on behalf of the audience
and, indeed, the higher way that the
poet could enjoy if more in tune
with the audience.
This poet/critic thread is not irrelevant
to a conference bringing together (primarily)
Uk poets and Us Language Writers; it may
well be not what a lot of people want to
come out of AA, but it is a key issue in
British experimental poetry, which has a
much smaller regular audience than a lot
of US poets of similar publication longevity,
and, I think, largely deserves it, in acting
fearfully towards fear.
Ira Lightman
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:12:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Poetics List <poetics@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Welcome Message
Because there are so many new people on this list, I thought we should
replay an old favorite. FYI: as of this morning there are 401 subscribers
to this list. --jk
____________________________________________________________________
Welcome to the Poetics List
&
The Electronic Poetry Center
sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art &
Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo
____________________________________________________________________
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
____________________________________________________________________
_______Contents___________
1. About the Poetics List
2. Subscriptions
3. Who's Subscribed
4. Digest Option
5. When you'll be away
6. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC)
7. Poetics Archives at EPC
8. Publishers & Editors Read This!
[This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@acsu.buffalo.
edu) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu).]
____________________________________________________________________
1. About the Poetics List
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archive. (See 7 below.)
____________________________________________________________________
6. What is the Electronic Poetry Center?
our URL is
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to
serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in
formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center
provides access to the burgeoning number of electronic resources in the new
poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS
List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct
connections to numerous related electronic
RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary print
little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. And we
have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets' reading their work, as
well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series.
The EPC is directed by Loss Pequen~o Glazier.
____________________________________________________________________
7. Poetics Archives via EPC
Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the
links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and
year or search them for specific information. Your interface will
allow you to print or download any of these files.
Or set your browser to go directly to:
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/archive
____________________________________________________________________
8. Publishers & Editors Read This!
PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open
and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications
as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a
list of your press/publications to
lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject
line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing
program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above
to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked
up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your
word processor ill save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly
desirable
Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy
and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts
from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for
ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press
and any distributors.
Initially, you might want to send short anouncements of new publications
directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the
EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have
a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts.
Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a
noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication
and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications.
____________________________________________________________________
END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:22:33 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ae59660a7dbd@[142.58.125.45]>
George, Emersonian Cricket is when you hit the ball with the paddle hard
enough to awaken it to the beauty of nature and the transcendental world
beyond this one. In this way it vaguely resembles Zen Lacrosse.
Gwyn "Kwatzu! Gesundheit!"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:11 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Susan Schultz <SSchu30844@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Assembling - Appreciations - Issues
Re: John Cayley's comments. I did think that the inclusion of Chinese
material was a good thing and did go against the whiteness of the conference.
My only comment there would be that their work was billed as "Language
writing"--in other words, they're included because they're "like us," as it
were. I'll say no more because unfortunately (I gave a paper at the same
time) I was unable to attend that panel.
all best, Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:53:34 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Art on the Edge of Fashion (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:34:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>
To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo
Subject: Art on the Edge of Fashion
re: "From Outlaw to Classic'-fashion to museum--alternative to
academy etc
'Art on the Edge of Fashion' at the
Arizona State University Art Museum
focuses on contemporary art that uses
the highly readable visual language
of clothing and fashion.
Invitation/Preview/Press Information WebPage...
http://asuam.fa.asu.edu/artedge/artedge.htm
Eight artists from across the U.S. and Canada
are featured in the exhibition:
Charles LeDray (New York), Christine LoFaso (Chicago),
Kerrie Peterson (Los Angeles), Elaine Reichek (New York),
Beverly Semmes (New York), Jana Sterbak (Quebec),
Nick Vaughn (Albuquerque), and Annie Wilson (Chicago).
February 1, 1997 through April 27, 1997.
--- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:52:38 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: poetry & baseball (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:52:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>
To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Subject: poetry & baseball
re comment using baseball as analogy for "playing it safe" in poetry--
not so for Jack Spicer or Larry Eigner
Eigner early an avid listener to Red Sox games, used baseball
statistics as way to develp memory in terms of visualization for doing
mat--also for visualizing words--
Summers I was "good to myself"and every day waited for the Red
Sox game on the radio--and you wanted the Red Sox to win today and win
tomorrow whether they did or din't today . . . . maybe you're surprised
when you forget to the extent
you depend on memory . . . .
Remember/sabbath days to/keep time still/how multiple . . .
Eigner also listened to radio for Cid Corman's poetry show . . .
Spicer had his radio, too--the poet as radio--often tuned to
baseball games--
"getting to first base"--Eigner has book called A Count of Some
Things--from Score publications, Crag Hill's press
Spicer:
no telling what happened in this game. Except one didn't strike
out. One feels they fielded it badly at second base.
Oceans of wildflowers. Utter logic of the form and color.
"Utter logic"--"speaking in tongues"--visualizing words--
"keep time still/how multiple"
Un coup de des n'abolira jamais le hasard . . . .
(or as Tug McGraw would say---You Gotta Believe
dbchirot
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:52:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: poetry & baseball
re comment using baseball as analogy for "playing it safe" in poetry--
not so for Jack Spicer or Larry Eigner
Eigner early an avid listener to Red Sox games, used baseball
statistics as way to develp memory in terms of visualization for doing
mat--also for visualizing words--
Summers I was "good to myself"and every day waited for the Red
Sox game on the radio--and you wanted the Red Sox to win today and win
tomorrow whether they did or din't today . . . . maybe you're surprised
when you forget to the extent
you depend on memory . . . .
Remember/sabbath days to/keep time still/how multiple . . .
Eigner also listened to radio for Cid Corman's poetry show . . .
Spicer had his radio, too--the poet as radio--often tuned to
baseball games--
"getting to first base"--Eigner has book called A Count of Some
Things--from Score publications, Crag Hill's press
Spicer:
no telling what happened in this game. Except one didn't strike
out. One feels they fielded it badly at second base.
Oceans of wildflowers. Utter logic of the form and color.
"Utter logic"--"speaking in tongues"--visualizing words--
"keep time still/how multiple"
Un coup de des n'abolira jamais le hasard . . . .
dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:08:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Sheila Murphy <Shemurph@AOL.COM>
Subject: test message
Test
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:13:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Mandel <tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM>
Dan Davidson was one of the most gifted and alive human beings I have known
and I count myself lucky to have come to know him as well as I did, tho
never well enough.
Only a couple of weeks ago, Dan asked me whether I thought we should send
out a couple of earlier collaborative poems we'd done in preparation for
Absence Sensorium, and we exchanged email about the production of AS just a
few days ago. So I know he was thinking of the future, not of shutting down
that future, quite recently.
I will miss him terribly.
Tom
Screen Porch
************************
Tom Mandel * think
202-362-5349 * out
fax 202-364-5349 * here
tmandel@screenporch.com*
************************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:40:19 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets)
just to throw in with john cayley on this question of emedia, and to
suggest *one* way to functionalize helpfully: those of you with good
internet resources might consider holding a pre-conference salon/symposium
(even moo---though i prefer mself the less synchronous fora)... or setting
up a provisional web site (which *could* comprise papers, poetry, etc.)...
it's been done before, sure, and sometimes to good advantage... i think in
fact the poetry/critical thread could have been chewed over some with some
positive results before convening... i'm not certain poetics is the place
to do this (and i'm not the one to say), but it seems to me that there's a
lot of potential for prefacing conferences through the internet...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:02:11 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
Dear Kevin,
Is this the same Daniel Davidson who wrote "Bureaucrat, My Love," some
of which appeared in Gertrude Stein Awards in 1993-1994?
Douglas
At 09:13 PM 9/8/96 +0100, you wrote:
>We have some sad news to deliver. San Francisco poet Daniel Davidson died
>Saturday night, apparently by his own hand, after many years of pain
>following open heart surgery. Details are sketchy at this point, but more
>detailed obituaries will follow.
>
>I (Dodie) met Dan in the mid-80s (actually got to know him, since I'd seen
>him around) at the UCSF medical center where I was a temp secretary and he
>was coming frequently for follow-up for his heart surgery. He and I spend
>many an evening together discussing writing, living, music, art (and
>drugs). We were both avid about Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time"
>and sometimes we'd shut up long enough to listen to it at his apartment on
>Haight Street. I've never seen anyone live more grandly on a fixed income
>than Dan--he was amazing. Bringing home castoff clothing from the
>Salvation Army, dyeing them black, and cutting such a dashing figure. At
>that time Dan hadn't published much, but shortly afterward he became an
>important figure in the Bay Area writing scene, writing, giving readings,
>curating series. He taught an after-school program for small children at
>Small Press Traffic when it was still on 24th Street.
>
>I (Kevin) remember Dan always in the audience at every kind of poetry
>reading you could imagine, always with his own determined take on things.
>Perhaps because he came to poetry late, he was burning up with poetry
>fever, and he could be exhausting in his naked need to know more. And
>because he had this plastic heart valve he often thought of himself as not
>having much time. He was generous to a wide variety of young writers and
>attentive to his elders. I was glad to be able to write a "blurb" for his
>first book "Product." In recent years I didn't see him around much.
>Couldn't figure it out. The last reading I saw him give was with Bob
>Perelman at New Langton Arts, and when was that? At least 2 years ago. He
>shied away from all the events he used to shine at. Last month when Anselm
>Berrigan and Katie Lederer left for parts East, Dan came to the party for
>them--still Byronic, still dashing, but gray, gray.... and he and I talked
>then about this and that. God! The ironic thing is that he was scheduled
>to participate in the "Proliferation 3" reading Dodie and Mary Burger are
>holding at Small Press Traffic this coming Friday (the 13th). And now
>their plans are to make it into some kind of memorial in his honor, I
>guess.
>
>Sorry to fill up the bandwidth with all this info about Dan and us, but as
>you can see, we have the kind of grief that's hard to take hold of and make
>sense of--a grief not unmixed with guilt. I know that the book Dan wrote
>with Tom Mandel is coming out soon, the collaboration from Poets and Potes
>Press of which he was so pleased and so proud. That's something, tho'
>right now I don't know what.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:05:47 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: sans teeth (p lopate)
Interesting invisibility of the avant-garde in Phillip Lopate's NY Times
Book Review 'bookend' on contemporary American Poetry. Anybody read it? A
fairly standard and caustic assessment of workshop poetry (tho Lopate
refuses to identify it as such), such as you might see by R. Silliman or
C. Bernstein circa 1980, but with this difference--Lopate thinks it just
lacks sufficient _molarity_.
"Paradoxical as it sounds, American poetry today suffers not from being too
personal and confessional, but from being not personal or confessional
enough. Often the poet pulls back from providing just those biographical
specificities and idiosyncratic reactions that would bring him alive as an
authentic individual. Instead, there is a judicious ladling of images and
metaphors and sense details to make the poem resemble that craft object,
that Procrustean bed, the contemporary American poem; and the poet,
abandoning onerous individuality, merges prematurely with the collective
ethos. The result is that we do not encounter that many quirky, uniquely
voiced individuals in poetry today. What we do encounter is a lot of
half-baked sages, speaking piously for their tribal or communal sliver."
I'll forswear to kid Lopate's style, which is as monstrously post-Trilling
as it gets (judges wield gavels, not ladles, btw), and look at, I mean
characterize, his argument (which, echoing the title of the essay, singles
out no particular 'weak poet'--David Shapiro's phrase). This is the
Tarantino (Spielberg) argument, that American film has gotten too wimpy and
needs strong narrative, explicit violence, and a good soundtrack. It is not
dissimilar to the Gingrich (Reagan) argument, that American politics needs
to put even more power in the hands of the very few who have power. I
believe that American poetry does not need greater intensities of
personality and confession _from those who would make a career of
personality and confession_. No. Some, even a little, fun (in all the late
capitalist haze of that word) would be enough to redeem _those_ poets, at
least for the page or two one encounters them on when one is uncareful,
ambitious, or lonely. As Lopate said nothing about _any other kind of
poet_, I'll say nothing about _us_, except that I myself haven't felt the
need to listen all the way through a baseball game since October 1986
(Attn: Steve Evans-- a more politic starting time for the current poetic
era than 1989?). That probably says more about me than it does about
poetry, but I can't believe _everybody_ who talks about 'personism' in
terms of 'lucky Pierre' has that wild a life.
I would ask any poets reading this list who do _not_ believe that _all_
American poetry today is congruous with Lopate's assessment to write a
brief letter stating so to:
The Editor
New York Times Book Review
229 W 43rd St
New York NY 10036
It is not that often that a critic both wrongheaded and genially capable of
reading will get in the way so opportunely--anyway. Just thought some of
you would enjoy thinking about it.
Jordan Davis
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:17:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate)
Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of
mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of
mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread!
J
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:20:12 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: critics & Poets
Three cheers for Michael Boughn,
The argument that criticism could exist without literature has been bunk since
the insecure new critics used it to try to shore up their claim to
intellectual legitimacy. (Yes, we are as objective as the scientists.)
Criticism certainly has a role to play, but to pretend that it could exist w/o
literature is as ridiculous as claiming that natural science could exist w/o
nature.
There is, however, a reciprocity. Critics do help poets: by placing our work
in historical context, by evaluating us (sorry, but at some point this is an
institutional necessity and it must and will be done--distasteful, though.),
by explaining what we do, by championing some of us. We are perhaps in some
sort of symbiosis.
The irritation at critics, though, has a real basis. When at SUNY-Buffalo I
overheard one graduate student in film studies tell another that it was
interesting to hear the filmmaker discuss her work because "artists never know
what they are really doing."
Such critical arrogance is commonplace today: Many critics need to hold on to
the naive myth of artists as romantic primitives, bellowing out inspired
works that they do not understand. [Note that this myth was applied to
artists by Plato and was one of the reasons he banned them from his Republic:
they are intuitive and inspired rather than rational.] It serves them well.
It makes the critics more important than the artists.
finally, marjorie Perloff has done so many poets and the poetry community in
general a service by her advocacy of us to other academics and the public at
large. I appreciate all that she has done, and I know from her writings that
she has more respect and love for art than do most critics. I feel that I can
understand why she reads. With many critics, I'm left wondering: Do you
actually enjoy reading?
Jeff Hansen
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:37:42 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate)
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ae59f36e5746@[166.84.199.56]>
On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote:
> Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of
> mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of
> mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread!
>
> J
>
Jordan,
I don't know yet what the sentence in question was but your choice to take
on Lopate seems loaded, overdetermined, in a variety of ways you could
profitably acknowledge. Obviously know-body on this list, including and
especially me, would agree with the limits of Lopate's configuration.
Although, within that configuration, there is much that he says that could
do good and be the opposite of the Tarrantino/Gingrich equation you try
for. David Shapiro's work is an example of work that does so much more
than what Lopate says most postconfessional work does: and as you know
Lopate has praised Shapiro's work for that very reason. By the way, what
is the 86 versus 89 thing about. I read with interest Dodie's post saying
that Hejinian was happy to hear that people said Language poetry had been
over for ten years. That seems a healthy and healthful and helpful
response on her part, gracious as well. And presumably we can say over in
one important sense continuing in another. Aesthetic breakthroughs are
there for poets: surrealism is there, seventeenth century poetry is there,
if one can make them convincing in one's praxis. So, and I see you were
addressing Steve here, but, really, what is our current era.
Joseph
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:42:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate)
In-Reply-To: <v01530500ae59f36e5746@[166.84.199.56]>
On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote:
> Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of
> mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of
> mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread!
>
> J
>
PS
And obviously I also mean that Lopate's criticisms of mainstream poetry
are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of mainstream poetry.
So though I'm not going to bumrush the times today I agree that everyone
should. Not, obviously, under one banner but in the full glory of
multiple communities with multiple histories to go with multiple poetics.
Joseph
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:09:05 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: critics & Poets
j hansen sez:
The irritation at critics, though, has a real basis. When at SUNY-Buffalo I
overheard one graduate student in film studies tell another that it was
interesting to hear the filmmaker discuss her work because "artists never know
what they are really doing."
i say:
i've observed this too; u of mn grad student criticizing Claude Lanzman, of all
people, for his belief that an artist/filmmaker (himself) was really
accomplishing something in approaching the unspeakable...they found it
theoretically naive. with all respect to grad students on the list, i find this
to be more typical of grad students who are learning to be "academics" than of
seasoned "critics" or academics who actually interact w/ artists a lot...but
much of this is a reaction to the daze when critics/academic saw their primary
task as transmitting, with a bullying sort of messianic energy (cf dead poets'
society) an uncritical worship of certain texts and certain GENIUSES. etc
md
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:09:42 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED*
re Jeff Hansen's note--the student who thought that artists don't
know what they are saying anyway--
Marcel Duchamp liked to point out the phrase, "bete comme un
peintre'--say it gave him some 'food for thought" so to speak--to
make art that demontrates art as thinking--
of course this has given rise to an industry of
interpretations--(among them the Kabbalah as I think some one
pointed out in a previous thread--)--leading Robert Smithson to
propose Duchamp as an Occultist--
(or a cult figure . . . )
Smithson wrote of an "art of looking"--as opposed to "art
objects"--
which leads to one of questions of poets/critics thread--who
owns, controls, maps out territories--of what is called poetry--re
Emerson--notice ways he discusses property in relation to the poet in
"Nature" and "The Poet"--
from "Nature": There is a property in the horizon which no man
has but he whose eye can integrate all the parts, that is, the poet."
But such discussion also occurs in relation to creation of
American 'original relation to the universe"--hence caught up in issue of
a National Culture--and becomes complicated--
In "The Poet" : the poet is 'Land-Lord, air-lord,
sea-lord"--again poetry and property--
A Russian critic of Marinetti's visit to Russia before WWI pointed
out that Marinetti's ruptures of syntax in his Parole in Liberta did not
nothing to change property relations
since the rights of private property are inscribed in the U.S.
Constitution--seems appropriate to examine aspects of the poets/critics
threads in the usa in relation to mapping of territories, controlling and
owning of such, distribution of it . . .
presentation of poetry via the academy--what is taught in classrooms--as
this may have as much effect long term as criticism etc--(this list after
all being presented through academic system)
and this in relation to
debates going on over dissemination
and control of e networks, e mail--and virtual reality, cyberspace--
so here a conference on aspects of virtual art which may be of
interest
dbchirot
----------
F
orwarded message -
--------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:56:18 +0100
From: NECHVATAL Joseph <jnech@imaginet.fr>
To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED*
I am serving on the advisory board for an upcoming International Conference
entitled "CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED" which is being conducted at CAiiA, the
Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts, at the University of
Wales. We are holding this International Conference on July 5,6 in 97.
My area of interest involves VR & theoretical avant-garde artistic
spacial constructs
of VR information. The topic heading will be : " Deframed Perceptual Spaces
: mirrorings, imaginings, replicas & copies of mirrored images".
There are other topics groups in development as well. Here they all are:
* Mapping and Responsive Visualisations
* Public-Personal
* Sonic Reembodiment/Disembodiment
* Left Brain Navigation
* Cyberception and Paranature
* The Cybernetics of Architecture
* Community of Ahomogeneous Systems
* Dream Consciousness Reality
* Transformations and Future Body
I'm looking for avant-garde art related papers on these subjects.
If interested please contact me at: jnech@imaginet.fr
Feel free to circulate this notice.
Joseph Nechvatal @ Paris
http://www.dom.de/arts/artists/jnech/
http://www.cybertheque.fr/galerie/jnech
Data only becomes information if it changes something.
--- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:54:51 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate)
Jordan,
Thank you for so eloquently summing up my frustrations at Lopate's pot
shots.
Burt
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:57:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: mookie (loop) ten years after
I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986
(glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you
say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization
he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to
remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's
(unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that
_even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I
am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like
'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper'
to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the
one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the
archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't
call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a
possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may
profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long
as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a
given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated
personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you
again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book
Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the
deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv
manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful
ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really
about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and
doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about
the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent
chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings
and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying
something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized
by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_
my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming
public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter
to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of
underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter
signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words
Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even
if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word
no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and
consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not
proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why
the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or
the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the
context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want
to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a
mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some
focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics.
Okay!
Jordan
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:35:50 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics"
Good move, Dodie. best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:50:05 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
This thread arose directly out of critic/poet thread.
>i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical
>head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next
>project...bests to you, rob xo, md
If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
would be a tad confusing to those academics.
Correct me if i am wrong - is it not true that the majority of publishing
poets today are associated with universities? Is it not true that 99% of
the (limited) money to be made in poetry; whether grants, stipends,
(royalties - granted I'm sure there is not a lot of that), or salaries go
to those in the academy?
It strikes me that the assembling of alternatives would entail getting the
poet who goes into the prisons and workshops with prisoners, or the poets
who recite verse on the subway on the weekends to the upwardly mobile and
homeless. Nirvana at the end was so alternative you could see their
"alternativeness" in every record store in the land. They were so
alternative Cobain put a shotgun in his mouth to escape the alternatives.
It might make sense within the academy to gather writers together under the
auspices of a university and say things like "we were able to gather the
entire Irish avante garde together for this conference" or we are
"concerned about the lack of people of color at the conference" but don't
for a minute believe this is done without elitism. The avante garde cannot
be found within the academy no matter how linguistically interesting the
work may be. The status quo is in the university and no matter the battles
which rage within the academic community of langpo vs not or whatever as
long as the status quo resides within the university it cannot honestly
claim "alternative" or "avante garde" for itself.
I would go so far as to say that since, to my limited knowledge, poetry has
never been involved to a great extent in the commercial realm that Bob
Holman's producing of poetry shows for Toyota is far more avante garde than
anything at all going on in the academy. To that extent (mt)v is far more
avante garde as well in that it has given voice to poetry outside of the
academy as well.
Today's situation is analogous IMHO to the soviet era of the writer's
union. Far more valuable work is going on now within the "union" but
please don't pretend it's not a union. "Inherent elitism" is not
nonsensical to me.
cf
>i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical
>head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next
>project...bests to you, rob xo, md
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:17:19 -0500
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From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
filch rites:
If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
would be a tad confusing to those academics.
i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word
"elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged
onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, and one
should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a
stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things.
md
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:56:45 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
I publicly apologize to Maria. Upon rereading my post it is indeed too
confrontational.
I believe my points are valid but my tact is lacking.
pher
>filch rites:
>If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
>they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
>would be a tad confusing to those academics.
>
>i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word
>"elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged
>onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad,
>and one
>should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a
>stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things.
>md
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:24:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
hey wow. i'm touched. i guess my point is that i've seen the term "elitist"
used in so many contradictory ways (but always negative) that anyone can call
anything elitist and have it mean not much more than "i feel left out." i was a
die-hard anti-elitist as a grad student in stanford's modern thought and lit,
and was mortified to see a profile of our program characterize the student body
as a group who "enjoyed their status as a small and selective elite." then i
came to the u of mn, a huge public landgrant univ, whose lack of "real" elitism
led to a yucky kind of status anxiety on the part of faculty etc; they outdid
each other in wearing tweed, going to the symphony, bewailing low student
achievement --and calling those of us who were younger and theory-literate both
"elite" and "yahooistic" depending on immediate context. my students, as i've
said, use the word "elitist" to describe a text containing words that are more
than two syllables. at the same time, they expect their college education to
give them a familiarity w/ "the classics" that will enable them to get a good
money-making job...the contradictions are endless and obvious. etc.md
In message <v02130502ae5a50922e0d@[198.147.97.100]> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> I publicly apologize to Maria. Upon rereading my post it is indeed too
> confrontational.
>
> I believe my points are valid but my tact is lacking.
>
> pher
>
> >filch rites:
> >If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
> >they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
> >would be a tad confusing to those academics.
> >
> >i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word
> >"elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged
> >onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad,
> >and one
> >should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not
> a
> >stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things.
> >md
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:19:55 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets)
John Cayley's comments on the Rite of Reading Papers (= Conference)
hit home. Recently there was an invitation to a Visual Poetry
Conference. In an e-mail exchange I learned that if I was unable to
go (New Zealand to Canada) to the Conference, I could send a poster.
I enquired whether the poster was to represent a paper or a visual
poem. No reply. At a conference here in Auckland this year, the
problem of appropriate discourse came up again, a conference on
Narrative. Should a conference on narrative consist of critical
papers on narrative or should it largely consist of narrations which
concerned, or related to, the "conceptual" base ((avoiding the word
"theory" here)) of narrative?
Where's the differences, then?. Between conference papers and
narratives? between philosophical, conceptually analytical
discourses, and narrative? what would Plato have to say?
reading The Protagoras last week, I note that Platos has Socrates
begin by telling the story of his encounter with Protagoras.
Protagoras, at one point in this story, asks Socrates and the other
persons present, whether he should explain something or tell a story.
He tells a story which turns into an explanation as it goes, that is
to take advantage of the narrqative by pointing to what is ssalient
to his "argument". Plato also represents even the longest of the
discourses as if they are spoken and off the cuff at that.
What authorises the peculiar practice of the modern academic
conference? in which there is a cleqr divide between speaker and
listener roles, often with little chance for discusssion.
best
Protagoras last week3sanrratives
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:02:42 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: test message
Yout test score: 100%
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:00:15 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: poetry & baseball + RADIO
English writers of a certain age will find it difficult to evade
acknowledging the influence on poetics of such grand figures as
Raymond Glendenning and John Arlott. Rado commentators on sports
action perform what I take to be an important language/poetic
function. best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:14:38 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Notice to critics, writers and/or readers -- E-Zine
since everyone else is posting ezine info on the web, here is mine: i
am assistant editor at an ezine on the web called Free Cuisenart, the
literary magazine for Creative Coalition of Artists (CCA), the site
organized about a year ago to fight censorship on the net
Free Cuisenart had a special international issue in August featuring
Viktor Carr's essay on growing up in Croatia, poems by Karen McKevitt,
Tom Hubschman, Martin Auer, Jim Gourley, and Liz Thelen, and a short
story by Trevor Reeves. The August "Wowzine" issue can be found at:
http://www.stjpub.com/cca/fca.html
This month's issue has an interview with Stephen Williamson (editor
and co-creator of _Motley Focus Locus_), poems by LeeAnn Heringer, Ray
Heinrich, Taylor Graham, Bruce Bentzman, Sean Curtis Brendan-Brown,
David Kitchel, Michael McNeilley, Richard Fein, and CyberClem, a story
by Trevor Reeves, and an incredible poem/essay on living in Canada
by semi-regular to regular (he is charmingly noncommittal) Viktor Carr.
All the work, of course, is incredible and i don't just say that because
i work there.
we are always looking for readers, of course, but we are also looking for
writers. if you'd like to send us work, the email address is:
jordanh@iquest.net
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:38:56 +0000
Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jzitt@bga.com>
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM>
Organization: HumanSystems
Subject: Re: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED*
Comments: To: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
On 9 Sep 96 at 12:09, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote:
> Marcel Duchamp liked to point out the phrase, "bete comme un
> peintre'--say it gave him some 'food for thought" so to speak--to
> make art that demontrates art as thinking--
For the few of us out here who don't speak French: What does that
phrase mean?
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \|||
||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \|
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:20:38 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire
>George, Emersonian Cricket is when you hit the ball with the paddle hard
>enough to awaken it to the beauty of nature and the transcendental world
>beyond this one. In this way it vaguely resembles Zen Lacrosse.
>
>Gwyn "Kwatzu! Gesundheit!"
Ah! It sounds a lot like what we call Shelleyan Badminton.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:19:27 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: duchamp quote
Joseph Zitt--apologies for ye elitist untranslated french quote--
bete comme un peintre--means stupid like a painter
(bete means beast,animal--so painter a stupid animal, or dumb beast so
to speak--)(for the millions of kids who know "bete" from the Disney
Beauty and the Beast--"bete" like a painter--might seem a little
surprising and funny--)
--dbc
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:31:02 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after
>I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986
>(glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling.
I believe that the Buckner Bobble was one of those momentous events that
you remember the way you remember Kennedy's killing. Like, where were you
when Buckner let Mookie's weak grounder go thru him?
I was in a bar in Cleveland, watching the game on TV, across the street
from Muni Stadium. Unfortunately, I was drinking with a bunch of guys from
New York! Damnit! George Butterick was one of them.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:48:19 JST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Geraets <frank@DPC.AICHI-GAKUIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
How emptying to hear of Daniel Davidson's death. My
knowledge of him comes from email exchanges over the past
few months, a thing or two sent in the mail. Last Thurs
he finished a note, Gotta go... good to hear from you.
I enjoyed our exchanges, he said he did too, and though
there was a strong sense of him, there's also the
sense now of how suddenly that's stopped.
In the limited way I knew him, much respect,
John
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:06:10 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: poet critic critic poet...
In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:02:21 -0500 from
<amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Have to agree with Joe (hey, I was a main culprit). To criticize the
easy critics - why can't the list have several topics going, without
getting badmouthed? You want reminiscences about the conference, instead
of po/crit debates - ok, just ask for them. You want to discuss
something else - fine, bring it up. But don't play the one-up game
every time you have an opener. (I'm trying to take my own advice.)
Mike Boughn & Joe Amato brought up what seems to me the basic issue,
at the root of all the framing discomfort. If poetry is simply a human
activity, under human control - then we can make it whatever we want.
The categories of poetry/prose/cricitism etc. are up to us. This is
a gray area - in a certain sense, it can't be denied - everything is
socially constructed. But what I was trying to emphasize, & what
the Steiner quote was about (partly), is that in creative work there
is a certain rawness, a LOSS of control, a surrender - to inspiration,
the Muse, the Other, whatever you want to call it. This is where
the rawness, the originality, the ghettoization, the discomfort,
the Platonic exile, the glory/shame of it are all about. How much is a
scientist "in control" when s/he comes up with an earth-shaking new
theory or discovery? Poetry is the surrender to strange coherence
(sorry for the "poetry is..." phrase). And if it's purely a strategic
choice on my part to try to differentiate between poetry & criticism
it's not to ghettoize them or antagonize them but to bring out something
that's really there, whether in fusion with criticism or not.
- Henry Gould
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:56:32 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
(filch):
>Correct me if i am wrong - is it not true that the majority of publishing
>poets today are associated with universities? Is it not true that 99% of
>the (limited) money to be made in poetry; whether grants, stipends,
>(royalties - granted I'm sure there is not a lot of that), or salaries go
>to those in the academy?
by my count (& i measure "publishing poets" by the yard, on my overflowing
"to be reviewed" shelves), you are _quite_ wrong, in terms of numbers of
publishing poets--also in quantity of publications, and i'd guess in readership
(dare i wonder outloud, here, about "quantity" vs. "quality"? no, i dare
not)... certainly, tho, th majority of criticism published is criticism of
poets associated w/ universities (directed to same?); likewise the $$ bit...
what's the point?
lbd
trr/burning press/etc...
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:21:15 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Rutgers Conference
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91a.960908163614.3413K-100000@hopper.unh.edu>
Thanks all for the information. Hope to see you there!
Julie Schmid
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:56:40 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after
In-Reply-To: <v01530502ae5a0288e33c@[166.84.199.56]>
On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote:
> I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986
> (glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you
> say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization
> he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to
> remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's
> (unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that
> _even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I
> am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like
> 'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper'
> to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the
> one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the
> archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't
> call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a
> possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may
> profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long
> as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a
> given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated
> personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you
> again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book
> Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the
> deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv
> manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful
> ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really
> about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and
> doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about
> the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent
> chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings
> and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying
> something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized
> by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_
> my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming
> public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter
> to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of
> underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter
> signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words
> Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even
> if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word
> no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and
> consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not
> proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why
> the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or
> the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the
> context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want
> to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a
> mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some
> focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics.
>
> Okay!
> Jordan
>
Ok. I only mentioned surrealism and seventeenth century poetry as what is
open to being rehistoricized. Silver age, negritude, Carl Sandburg, Dada,
all likewise. No one's a sucker and yes we should take the times
seriously even as they make it virtually impossible to do so. I agree
that Lopate's argument is conservative in one way and I also agree with
you that his criticism of mainstream postconfessional stuff is similar to
Langpo's. So what to do with that loop. And I certainly wasn't asking
you to get postconfessional about a private life (whatever that is, isn't
the personal political even when the personal must be exploded in order
for ideology to be revealed at work). I think all I meant was isn't
Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way.
Ok.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:01:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
Comments: To: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <3234895f1fd1077@mhub0.tc.umn.edu>
On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, maria damon wrote:
> filch rites:
> If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
> they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
> would be a tad confusing to those academics.
>
> i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word
> "elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged
> onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, and one
> should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a
> stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things.
> md
>
poets have always written about poetry
institutions have always corrupted
in any event we are always multiple communities with multiple and
simultaneous histories
that needs to be the starting point for the context in which to say as
Jordan wants to that Lopate's position vis a vis postconfessional isn't
tough enough and likewise as filch and md want to that theory and poetics
are both here and manifest subject positions coming into being against
(sometimes) great social odds
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:04:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: poetics follies (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:17:07 -0400
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@panix.com>
To: lease@husc.harvard.edu
Subject: poetics follies
Joseph--
My apologies for any snippiness in the last back to you. I think I got a
bit carried away. Lopate's analysis isn't bad--but he's not clear about how
much of poetry he's talking about.. that is, his premises are bad. Anyway..
thanks for the lively back and forth.
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:18:57 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960910115230.3083A-100000@fas.harvard.edu>
On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Joseph Lease wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote:
>
> > I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986
> > (glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you
> > say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization
> > he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to
> > remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's
> > (unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that
> > _even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I
> > am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like
> > 'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper'
> > to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the
> > one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the
> > archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't
> > call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a
> > possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may
> > profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long
> > as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a
> > given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated
> > personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you
> > again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book
> > Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the
> > deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv
> > manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful
> > ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really
> > about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and
> > doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about
> > the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent
> > chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings
> > and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying
> > something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized
> > by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_
> > my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming
> > public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter
> > to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of
> > underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter
> > signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words
> > Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even
> > if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word
> > no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and
> > consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not
> > proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why
> > the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or
> > the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the
> > context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want
> > to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a
> > mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some
> > focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics.
> >
> > Okay!
> > Jordan
> >
> Ok. I only mentioned surrealism and seventeenth century poetry as what is
> open to being rehistoricized. Silver age, negritude, Carl Sandburg, Dada,
> all likewise. No one's a sucker and yes we should take the times
> seriously even as they make it virtually impossible to do so. I agree
> that Lopate's argument is conservative in one way and I also agree with
> you that his criticism of mainstream postconfessional stuff is similar to
> Langpo's. So what to do with that loop. And I certainly wasn't asking
> you to get postconfessional about a private life (whatever that is, isn't
> the personal political even when the personal must be exploded in order
> for ideology to be revealed at work). I think all I meant was isn't
> Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way.
>
> Ok.
>
having now read and breathed a bit: so many problems come from positing
one and only one mainstream other
poetics and culture being fortunately and unfortunately more multiple and
polyvalent than that
one problem of position (one) other mainstream is that it makes for one
avant-garde when we are thousands
ok ok
now allow me to become postconfessional: I haven't actually read Lopate's
piece. heard about it from other friends. stopped reading times ages ago
precisely because it is so stupid about poetry.
so. my question is how to be activist in response without being
counterdependent.
and no overdetermined didn't mean written in crayon or anything like that
and I didn't know Lopate really at all except that he has praised
Shapiro's work and certainly in terms consistent with Langpo's critique of
postconfessional conventions.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:20:04 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joseph Lease <lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960910115230.3083A-100000@fas.harvard.edu>
PS
I'm still curious: what's the 86/89 deal.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:03:51 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julia Stein <jstein@LAEDU.LALC.K12.CA.US>
Subject: Re: narratives
>accomplishing something in approaching the unspeakable...they found it
>
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:19:55 GMT+1200
>From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
>Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets)
>
>Tony Green asks:
Should a conference on narrative consist of critical
>papers on narrative or should it largely consist of narrations which
>concerned, or related to, the "conceptual" base ((avoiding the word
>"theory" here)) of narrative?
My Websters dictionary said "narrate" is from Latin "gnarus" or "knowing"
akin to Latin "gnoscere," "nosere" "to know." If you look up "know" one
finds Latin "gnoscere, nocere" or "to come to know. " Narratives or tales
or myths around the world were a way of "knowing" or "coming to know."
Tales or myths are a way of explaining.
>
Where's the differences, then?. Between conference papers and
>narratives? between philosophical, conceptually analytical
>discourses, and narrative? what would Plato have to say?
Plato has been criticized a lot lately.
>But in regarding to Plato, the more I think about him versus the Sophists, I'm
>leaning more and more to the Sophists.
What if there was no canon, no Platonic justification of a literary canon.
What if people just gave up on that activity? What if we try to find
different ways to talk about literature without the canon.
Also, Guess Inc. has been firing people who are trying to organize so the
fired people are calling for a boycott of Guess.
Julia Stein
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:00:14 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: poet critic critic poet
A couple of quick points--
I'm sorry Alan. Nothing I said was meant to stand in judgement of you
work. I haven't read the essay and and was only using it rhetorically.
Cheap trick. Sorry. I would love to read it. Can you email it to me?
The thing is, as much as some people would like to deny these
differences or theorize them away, they continue to evoke strong,
passionate feelings, probably for a number of different reasons. That
I don't want to go into. But they do. (Steiner's description early in
_Real Presences_ of the graveyard of dissertations as a metaphor for
his sense of the problem is terrifyingly funny).
Anyway, I don't want to open this up again, only say
that, for all the brouhaha, it seems to me Steiner's basic point
about what he calls domestication raises uncomfortable, and hence
pertinent, points that remain unsettled, whatever you think of his
biblio-sexual orientation (is he a true textual fetishist or just a
biblio-invert?). If his language is provocative, well, so what? Maybe
he's trying to shake things up a bit. And maybe they could use a
shake.
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:12:52 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.960910115954.3083C-100000@fas.harvard.edu> from
"Joseph Lease" at Sep 10, 96 12:01:58 pm
> If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry
> they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism"
> would be a tad confusing to those academics.
> i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word
> "elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets
> tagged onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that
> elitism is bad, and one should go to any and all measures to avoid
> being called "elitist." i'm not a stupid person, and i'm not a bunch
> of academics calling things things.
> md
I hear scuttlebutt of an elite cadre of textual fetishists getting
organized in Vancouver. The word is they like to dress up in baseball
uniforms and talk about books in the dark. Talk about alternative!
Yikes. Lock up your kids!
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:05:00 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: postconfessional, postcolonial, let's call the whole thing
>I think all I meant was isn't
>Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way.
Sort of. Phillip has argued against the surrealist tendencies in the New
York School for years, leaning more towards the David Shapiro side than the
Ron Padgett side (though those two sides are not far apart these days, nor
is one more 'surreal' than the other). But what if he is? I don't get the
import.
86/89. -- Joseph -- this is totally unimportant, being a tinkering with the
proposed start-date for life after language. It is a parody/homage (an
attempt on the life after language? no -- just bending the Marx-defying
bent of the 89 world events).
I seemed to be positing one main stream because I was presenting Lopate's
argument. Lopate's anthology _The Art of the Personal Essay_ is a much more
complex piece of work than his Times article, which doesn't look so bad to
me--only too narrow (univocal?). Poetry is not a weaker cousin of the
personal essay. Writers afield embarrass sometimes.
And what if Lopate is sympathetic to the New York School. He wrote about
poetry for a huge audience in an irritating way; I thought it would be
strange to let it go unremarked.
Jordan Davis
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:09:21 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: canons
People talk about canons usually in terms of power, culture, class, who's
in, who's out. Seems like just as important is general human propensity
to set up markers for evaluation & run competitive races (handy critical
tool). Be interesting to see how many "canonical" writers actually
came from outside or margins of the "elite"in their societies. Outsiders
see the main chance in the race itself. One lesson of slams popularity
might be: forget about destroying the cannon or unmasking the canon.
Just set up different markers & hire different judges. Everybody likes
a good horserace (until they're sick of it). Of course lots of
literary charioteers have been onto this for a long time (re:
"alternative" this & that). - Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:47:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: canons
In message <POETICS%96091014210645@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> People talk about canons usually in terms of power, culture, class, who's
> in, who's out. Seems like just as important is general human propensity
> to set up markers for evaluation & run competitive races (handy critical
> tool). Be interesting to see how many "canonical" writers actually
> came from outside or margins of the "elite"in their societies. Outsiders
> see the main chance in the race itself. One lesson of slams popularity
> might be: forget about destroying the cannon or unmasking the canon.
> Just set up different markers & hire different judges. Everybody likes
> a good horserace (until they're sick of it). Of course lots of
> literary charioteers have been onto this for a long time (re:
> "alternative" this & that). - Henry Gould
good pt; a teacher of mine, an anthropologist who did a lot w/ narratve and
expressive cultures, was constantly puzzled the energy stirred up by the "canon"
debates among literary scholars. who cares, he'd say; or, when i wd say, so why
are these texts not in the canon, w/ some rhetorical indignation, he'd say, cuz
they're written by poor teenage girls, it's an open and shut case, next
question? i found his approach refreshing
md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:11:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: can on
as we used to say while putting up our garden vegetables for winter:
can on!
(also known as making "preserves")
--dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:22:21 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Sound Poetry Events
I thought I'd post for anyone who might be interested the dates and participants
for sound poetry for this year's "Festival de la Batie, the annual two-week
festival of theater, dance, music and sound poetry in Geneva, Switzerland.
September 13
Roger Lewinter
September 14
Bernard Heidsieck
Nomads - Guenther Ruch, Juergen O. Olbrich with Rod Summers, Guy Bleus, Fernando
Aguiar and Robin Crozier
Amanda Stewart
September 15
Bob Cobbing / Hugh Metcalfe
Mark McMorris / Ward Tietz
Christian Uetz
Julie Patton
All performances will be held at 8:30 pm at Sud des Alpes, 10 rue des Alpes,
Geneva, Switzerland. If you're interested in knowing more about the festival or
in submitting proposals for next year you can contact Vincent Barras at
<Vincent.Barras@inst.hospvd.ch>.
I'll try to post something next week on the performances themselves.
Ward Tietz
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: can on
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960910140949.6962B-100000@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu>
Kannon! Yes! The Bodhisattva of Compassion. Exactly who we need.
On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote:
> as we used to say while putting up our garden vegetables for winter:
>
> can on!
>
> (also known as making "preserves")
> --dbc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:51:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
Other than some minimalist correspondance, I didn't know Daniel Davidson but
I do know and greatly admire his work. Daniel Davidson was a brilliant poet,
one of the few. I am stunned and deeply saddened to learn of his death. The
following is a poem he wrote and enclosed in a letter I received from him
last February.
Imperative
1.
We walk and talk, shore filling the past.
To bring myself along
I dig my eyes into
the lap of liquid, what we've learned
is such an elegant poison
in pieces of elements, buoyed
by the warped and narrow walkways, the
curtain staring between us. Then to remember
our occupation, refrain, circumstance
around which everything happens
blank of water and muscle, where a heart
grasps the blood inside it, stillness
otherwise so common. Breathing credulity, a turbulent
condition for sight, a sign of touch
that "Spectator, of the Willing Participant", is part of you.
2.
The ships of sail in mourning washed
the feet of the sea, bread, cirrus, circuses
blanketing after dawn, and the birds following
each impose their directions. One light between us,
or two?, for our sprouting wings, for silence, for sleep
or sleepless daydreams purging the stones underfoot,
where falling proceeds, one step coming after to another.
3.
Bare embraces every earth, handwritten cornices
gleaming fictions, sweet, tasty entrances
borders eveary country life, whatever is pursued.
I've learned to believe when you describe the imaginable
when tracing the outlines of passing simplicity
a self-sealing break making room for another
listening, to the selves we've gathered.
Daniel Davidson, February 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:55:05 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Jennifer
They surfaced again in 1688.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:26:26 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Sarah E. Blackwood" <seb9b@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 Sep 1996 to 9 Sep 1996
In-Reply-To: <199609100406.AAA26978@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic
digest processor" at Sep 10, 96 00:00:51 am
Could anyone refer me to any sort of works dealing with gender
mimicry, costuming, even drag. I am starting out looking at
Cindy Sherman's film stills, but would appreciate any genre of
art. Thanks.
Sarah Blackwood
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:18:53 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "M.L. Weber" <MLWeber@AOL.COM>
Subject: invitation to submit
I am inviting submissions for a lit-mag---will do it twice a year at least,
approx. 64 booksize pages, to be called Sugar Mule.
Paul Hoover, Lance Olson, Pierre Joris, Jane Augustine, Kate Lila Wheeler
Michael Heller and others are in the first issue.
Please send to mlweber@aol.com by Sep 15 to be considered for the second
issue.
The print version of #1 is available from M.L. Weber, 2 N. 24th St., Colo.
Spgs.,
CO 80904 for $5 (or can be viewed on-line at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sugar_mule).
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:58:31 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: SPT--Proliferation #3 Reading
Small Press Traffic Presents
Proliferation #3
a reading by contributors
George Albon
Norma Cole
Jean Day
Hoa Nguyen
Leslie Scalapino
Since Dan Davidson was scheduled to appear at this reading, some
contributors will be reading work by Dan as well as their own work.
=46riday, September 13, 7:30 p.m.
New College Cultural Center
766 Valencia Street, San Francisco
$5
Proliferation is a post-Language, post-Naropa journal of the new
generation, edited by San Francisco=B9s Mary Burger.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:31:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Yasusada/Kent Johnson
FYI--
Subject: Araki Yasusada/Kent Johnson
> Date: 10 Sep 1996 18:36:54 GMT
> From: esn6627@is2.nyu.edu (Emily S. Nussbaum)
> To: LITERARY@bitnic.cren.net
>
> I'm writing an article about the "Araki Yasusada" situation for Lingua
> Franca magazine. Poems have published under the name Yasusada in Grand
> Street, Conjunctions, and American Poetry Review, among other places, with
> biographical information presenting Yasusada as a recently discovered
> Japanese poet who was a survivor of Hiroshima. This biographical
> information was invented, and the actual author(s) of the poems is
> (intentionally) unclear. If anyone has any information about this
> situation, about Kent Johnson (who has acted as the middleman for these
> submissions, and who may have written the work), or about connected
> matters, please contact me at esn6627@is2.nyu.edu as soon as possible, as
> I'm on deadline. Thank you!
>
> Emily Nussbaum
> Lingua Franca
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:36:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
>I hear scuttlebutt of an elite cadre of textual fetishists getting
>organized in Vancouver. The word is they like to dress up in baseball
>uniforms and talk about books in the dark. Talk about alternative!
>Yikes. Lock up your kids!
>
>Mike
>mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
Okay, it's true. But some of us look really good in baseball uniforms. Only
ten years ago I had great definition in my upper arm muscles.
So we talk about books in the dark! I'm not ashamed! I'm not! Sometimes we
dont even talk about books much!
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:36:06 +1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ann Louise Vickery <avickery@ARIEL.UCS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
Having just got back to Australia, I've only just battled with jetlag to read
through the rush of responses to the AA conference and add to
the pile. Even though there were not many of us Australians at the
conference (made even less in number by the felt absence of John Kinsella),
it was quite important for those of us who were to be there (in whatever
degree of visibility). While the conference seemed specifically aimed at
further encouraging a transatlantic exchange of contemporary poetries and
poetics, it was important also at a broader level of opening up the
cultures of poetry beyond the usual national borders (within the
discussion of who was centralized and who was outside the focus of the
conference, no-one seems to have mentioned the wonderful reading of
Nicole Brossard and Carla Harryman). The idea of nation was
raised rather prominently in some of the past messages on the list and at
the conference. From my point of view, the wonderful elements of the
conference were the points of connection between different poetic
communities, of moving beyond an 'Australian' context or a 'Canadian' context
for instance, to looking at how particular practices actually overlap or
shape one another in various ways.
In terms of who got heard at this conference, it needs to be recognized
that much depended on who wanted to listen and how one was listened to. It
was not so much the organizer, who did a fantastic job, so much as people
in the audience (or deciding to be an audience) that, in many cases,
affected the direction of debate. Just one or two examples. It has already
been mentioned that there was no public discussion after Philip Mead's paper
because the response centred on Bob Perelman's paper. I may be wrong but the
responses that came out of that session were all, if not nearly all, from
Americans. While Bob Perelman raised some interesting points, I think it
significant that those who responded were on fairly familiar ground.
Similarly, in the session I was in, which concerned generally US-Canadian
intersections of feminist practice, the audience were almost all Canadian or
English (American interest was fairly thin on the ground). To begin looking
at the pattern of attention and response (who attends which papers and who
feels able to talk in the limited space of post-paper discussion) perhaps goes
some way in beginning to understand why there may be various silences at such
events as well as a lack of ethnic diversity in US poetry conferences more
generally.
To finish up, I want to thank Romana for staging a much-needed
event. Thanks to her enthusiasm and support at my participation, I was
able to meet many American, Canadian and British writers who I have been
reading for some time, or have only recently discovered. As well as
many whose work I discovered while I was there. It was a great experience,
Ann Vickery
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:44:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 Sep 1996 to 9 Sep 1996
>Could anyone refer me to any sort of works dealing with gender
>mimicry, costuming, even drag. I am starting out looking at
>Cindy Sherman's film stills, but would appreciate any genre of
>art. Thanks.
>Sarah Blackwood
Best thing I have ever read/seen was Michel Tremblay's great play,
_Hosanna_
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:48:13 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: invitation to submit
--============_-1369701603==_============
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>Thanks for invitation. I'm sending something attached.
Best-
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--============_-1369701603==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
--============_-1369701603==_============--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:48:32 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: can on
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400 from
<gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400 Gwyn McVay said:
>Kannon! Yes! The Bodhisattva of Compassion. Exactly who we need.
Might help un-rig some of the horseraces.
- HG
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan A Levin <jal17@COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: Whitman Qestion
In-Reply-To: <v01530509ae5c027348d6@[142.58.125.39]>
O.K., Whitman fans:
Would anybody care to offer a gloss on the phrase "lacy jags" in the last
section of "Song of Myself":
I depart as air . . . . I shake my white locks at the runaway sun,
I effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags.
If you go to the OED, be prepared to spend some time there. Thanks--
Jonathan Levin
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:47:30 -0400
Reply-To: "Thomas M. Orange" <tmorange@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Thomas M. Orange" <tmorange@BOSSHOG.ARTS.UWO.CA>
Subject: wcw panel louisville
In-Reply-To: <199609110403.AAA00377@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
with all the heat that has been generated lately over academic-type
conferences, i nonetheless overcome my hesitation to repost the following
query.
i'm interested in putting together a panel or panels for the twentieth-
century literature conference to be held in louisville ky in february
1997.
my work on william carlos williams' early writing (roughly from tempers
through his collected 1921-1931) has got me looking currently at
imagist and "objectivist" poetics, and how pound and zukofsky as readers
of williams situate him in relation to those poetics.
we have the initial makings of a panel on reading williams and/or the
history of these movements, and are interested in some more proposals that
would help us round out (or narrow down) these panels.
louisville needs submissions of panels and completed papers (10 pp.) by
october 1, and i'd welcome ideas for papers on any related and sundry
topics. feel free to reply directly to the list or backchannel.
tom orange
tmorange@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:43:02 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry g <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whitman Qestion
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400 from
<jal17@COLUMBIA.EDU>
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400 Jonathan A Levin said:
>O.K., Whitman fans:
>
>Would anybody care to offer a gloss on the phrase "lacy jags" in the last
>section of "Song of Myself":
>
>I depart as air . . . . I shake my white locks at the runaway sun,
>I effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags.
Two possibilities:
1. it's the jagged lace of foamy surf.
2. it's a typo. Walt actually wrote: RACY jags (the car).
- hg
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:49:22 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Coffey <MCOFFEY@PW.CAHNERS.COM>
Subject: invitation to submit -Reply
Thanks for the invitation to submit to Sugar Mule. I attach "In Robert
Motherwell's Car." I have a book out from Sun & Moon, and another
coming from Coffee House next year. And Good luck with the mag.
Jesus, to witness the demise of the SASE. Who'd've thunk it.
begin 644 6POEMS.DOC
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end
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:04:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: invitation to submit -Reply
Could people submitting to Sugar Mule send their stuff to M.L. Weber and
not to the entire list?
Also, beware of PostScript garbling.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:13:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" <pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM>
Subject: Re: gender mimicry
Sarah,
don't know if this would help, but a good place to start, at least
historically, is with the fascinating story of the Chevalier D'Eon, a
cross-dressing spy/soldier/economist in the court of Louis XVII. A good deal
of his spying was done dressed as a woman. Havelock Ellis did a study of him
and there at least two good books on him (one of them published last year),
plus several "colorful" Victorian accounts, as well as some contemporary
records. I did quite a bit of research on him for HBO Pictures, whom I
worked for when I lived in LA. Believe it or not, they're actually making a
movie of his life. If you want book titles, authors, etc, feel free to
backchannel me.
Patrick Pritchett
pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:53:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whitman Qestion
i'm probably going to sound like the proverbial idiot savant writer
here, but the line "i effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags"
sounded perfectly clear to me, in a visual sort of way...
uh, jagged. something is jagged, thus it "jags"... yes, i know, quite
probably that isn't syntactical but i have a dreadful feeling i've
done it myself somewhere... and lacy, a sort of ragged, spread out,
thin sheet. you know when someone is smoking, and there is no wind,
or maybe a teensy current. and the smoke rises, or spirals slightly,
from the cigerette in those odd, flattened, tearing apart eddies?
better image, you know in cartoons when they have creatures dissolved
or blown up, they have that thin net of creature-body float in
the air...
that is a something that "jags" and it does so in lacy way. because of
the lace, i'm assuming whitman means a two-dimensional sheet, like a
peice opaper with lots of holes and the disembodied weightlessness
of smoke...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:20:25 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Eleni Sikelianos
Lee Chapman has asked me to ask if anyone has Sikelianos' address. If you
do, please contact Lee at Leechapman@aol.com.
Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:55:16 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: invitation to submit
--============_-1369661581==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>Thanks for invitation. I'm sending something attached.
>
>Best-
>
>
>
>
>
>Attachment converted: Velimir:The Martyrology 11 (WDBN/MSWD) (0001B05D)
>
>
>Attachment converted: Velimir:Canto I (WDBN/MSWD) (0001B05E)
>
>
>
>George Bowering.
> ,
>2499 West 37th Ave.,
>Vancouver, B.C.,
>Canada V6M 1P4
>
>fax: 1-604-266-9000
>e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
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--============_-1369661581==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
--============_-1369661581==_============--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:57:41 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: invitation to submit -Reply
--============_-1369661435==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Thanks for the invitation to submit to Sugar Mule. I attach "In Robert
>Motherwell's Car." I have a book out from Sun & Moon, and another
>coming from Coffee House next year. And Good luck with the mag.
>Jesus, to witness the demise of the SASE. Who'd've thunk it.
>
>
>Attachment converted: Velimir:6POEMS.DOC (WDBN/MSWD) (0001B05F)
--============_-1369661435==_============
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=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:57:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gary Roberts <GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: Whitman
"Lacy jags" to me = a wonderful way to characterize the fractal geometry of
turbulent systems such as clouds. Also seems an interesting diction cluster,
perhaps meant to play off gender connotations of each word, a kind of
hermaphrodic entity or bisexual manifestation, though there's an important
asymmetry: adjective/noun equal or not equal to female/male???
Peter Out
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:52:25 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Whitman
In message <01I9CNT2B5HEHV39AR@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> "Lacy jags" to me = a wonderful way to characterize the fractal geometry of
> turbulent systems such as clouds. Also seems an interesting diction cluster,
> perhaps meant to play off gender connotations of each word, a kind of
> hermaphrodic entity or bisexual manifestation, though there's an important
> asymmetry: adjective/noun equal or not equal to female/male???
> Peter Out
J.C. Lags to me: an abnormally lovely way to mandate the fibonacci express!
bring on the hermaphroditic diaspora syntax! pour on the infestation of mailed
females, an exotic asymmetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:55:22 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Roberto Tejada <103144.2454@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Dressing Up
On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 "Sarah E. Blackwood" wrote:
<<Could anyone refer me to any sort of works dealing with gender mimicry,
costuming, even drag. I am starting out looking at Cindy Sherman's film stills,
but would appreciate any genre of art. Thanks.>>
Sarah--
In addition to Sherman, different contemporary artists immediately come to mind:
the French performance artist Orlan who undergoes self-transformation through
plastic surgery (to mimic models from Classic paintings, from pop culture). See
article by Barbara Rose in February 1993 issue of *Art in America*. Also, Lyle
Ashton Harris foregrounds gendre and race issues in his large format cibachromes
in assorted attire, as does Anna Deavere Smith in her multivocal performances
(See Mirage: *Enigmas of Race, Difference and Desire*, Institute of Contemporary
Arts, London, 1995.) In this century--as opposed to cross-dressing in
Shakespeare--the performative mode and intent around much of this might be
traced back to dada (i.e. Duchamp in tutu as Adam in Picabia's Relache,
etcetera).
--Roberto
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:04:41 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dressing Up
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:55:22 EDT from
<103144.2454@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Marjorie Garber wrote a big book on this subject called Vested Interests.
Routledge Press, 1992. Haven't read it - but it got a lot of review
"coverage". - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:58:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: dressing up--the Post Card Queen
re the dressing up enquiry
read/see/hear the works and performances of Kenward Elmslie--
Postcards on Parade for example--with its backdrops of 150
handmade gender bending postcard collages--Kenward performing --singing,
speaking, dressing up--all the roles--
Kenward has a new show soon--
all of his books and tapes are available from SPD or Z and
Bamberger Presses--Bamberger wrote an interesting piece on KE's recent
work in Sulfur 37
Long live the Postcard Queen!
dbchirot
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:57:23 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Laura Moriarty <moriarty@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Dan Davidson
We've just gotten a message from Geoffrey Green who teaches here at SFSU
that there will be a memorial service for Dan Davidson on Saturday
September 14, 5:30 PM at 2948 16th Street at Capp. Dan was in the Creative
Writing program here at State in the eighties. I don't know more about the
servie or who to call to confirm. Hopefully, we will know more by the SPT/
Proliferation reading this Friday at New College.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:48:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dressing Up
>Marjorie Garber wrote a big book on this subject called Vested Interests.
>Routledge Press, 1992. Haven't read it - but it got a lot of review
>"coverage". - HG
Apparently (as I learned from an article in *Lingua Franca*) this book it
spends some time ruminating on the picture of "Oscar Wilde" as Salome which
appeared in Ellmann's biography and has now been shown to not be Wilde (or a
man, for that matter) at all.
Not to slag the book (which I haven't read). Just a little tidbit of
knowledge.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
University Writing Program (919) 660-4357
Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
-- Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:39:26 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Laura Moriarty <moriarty@SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
I was able to speak with Geoffrey Green again and found that in fact the
memorial service will take place as planned this Saturday at 2849 16th St.,
the new location for The Lab at 5:30 PM. It is to be an informal service.
We did some research here at the Center and have a partial list of publications:
Product, e.g.press, San Francisco, 1991
Image, Zasterle Press, Canary Islands, 1992
Weather, Score Press, Berkeley
Absence Sensorium, with Tom Mandel, forthcoming from Potes and Poets Press,
Elwood, CT
>We've just gotten a message from Geoffrey Green who teaches here at SFSU
>that there will be a memorial service for Dan Davidson on Saturday
>September 14, 5:30 PM at 2948 16th Street at Capp. Dan was in the Creative
>Writing program here at State in the eighties. I don't know more about the
>service or who to call to confirm. Hopefully, we will know more by the SPT/
>Proliferation reading this Friday at New College.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:10:38 GMT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Jarnot <jarnot@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: ear inn readings
October and November 1996: Readings at The Ear Inn
OCT 5: PRAGEETA SHARMA, MARK MCMORRIS
Prageeta Sharma is a graduate of the MFA program in Creative Writing at
Brown University. In 1995 she was a fellow at the MacDowell Colony and was
awarded the Academy of American Poets Prize. She currently lives in
Brooklyn, New York. Mark McMorris is the author of Figures for a
Hypothesis, Mothwings, and the forthcoming collection The Black Reeds. This
September he collaborated with Ward Tietz on a performance installation and
sound poem for the Geneva Arts Festival. He lives in Providence, Rhode
Island.
OCT 12: CLIFF FYMAN, LEE ANN BROWN
Cliff Fyman lives in New York City where he is a poetry editor of Cover
magazine. His work has recently been published in The San Francisco
Chronicle, Hanging Loose, The World Anthology: Out of this World, and
Lungfull!. Lee Ann Brown is a poet and filmmaker. Her work has been
published in several magazines and journals and her first book, Polyverse,
is forthcoming from Sun and Moon this fall. She recently moved to New York
City where she is the editor/publisher of Tender Buttons press.
OCT 19: ANSELM BERRIGAN, KIM LYONS
Kim Lyons recently collaborated with Ed Epping on an artists book called
Mettle. She has poetry forthcoming in The World and Pagan Place and her
chapbook, Rhyme the Lake, is available from leave books. Anselm Berrigan
has returned to New York after a two year stay in San Francisco. His recent
publications include a chapbook, On the Premises, and poems which have
appeared in several magazines, including Talisman, Prosodia, and Yale
Younger Poets.
OCT 26: DEIRDRE KOVAC, BARBARA HENNING
Deirdre Kovac lives in Brooklyn. She is associate editor of Big Allis and
is completing her first collection of poems, Mannerism. Her poetry and
criticism have appeared recently and are forthcoming in American Letters &
Commentary, Denver Quarterly, Letterbox, Object, The Poetry Project
Newsletter, and Torque. Barbara Henning is the editor-publisher of Long
News Books. Her most recent collection, Love Makes Thinking Dark, was
published by United Artists Books in 1995. Her work can be found in
Talisman, Chain, and Trois and she has a collection of poems, In Between,
forthcoming from Spectacular Diseases.
NOV 2 BETH BORRUS, SCOTT BENTLEY
Scott Bentley lives in Oakland and teaches at Cal State Hayward. He has an
O book called Ground Air that rides shotgun into the KWave. He handles
landscapes and large objects. Beth Borrus has recently returned from a
hiatus in Paris with Edith Piaff. She has a new collection of poems called
Fast Divorce Bankruptcy published by Incommunicado. She lives in Elizabeth
and works in Newark.
NOV 9 ANGE MLINKO, EDWIN TORRES
Ange Mlinko lives in Providence and edits Compound Eye. She has a new
chapbook out from Lift called Immediate Orgy & Audit. She grooves to New
York. Edwin Torres is a poet who exists in the you-misphere of the
alphabet. He was recently curator of the monday night series at St. Mark s
and a recipient of a grant from the Foundation for Contemporary Performance
Art. His two collections are Lung Poetry & I Hear Things People Haven't
Really Said.
NOV 16 DREW GARDNER, CHUCK STEIN
Drew Gardner does not play loud like a young jazz drummer. He has two
chapbooks, Stonewalk published by St. Lazar and The Cover from Leave. He
practices at night and lives in Brooklyn. Chuck Stein will not stop working
on his life project forestforthetrees. His most recent book is a selected
poems from Station Hill called hatracktree. Marie Osmond has performed his
speaking backwards poetry on Ripley's Believe It or Not. He lives in the
Hudson Valley.
NOV 23 LYDIA DAVIS, PATRICIA JONES
Patricia Jones has a new book out from Coffee House called The Weather That
Kills and a Telephone chapbook called My Mythologies Always. She is a
fellow at Breadloaf, teaches at Sara Lawrence and lives in the heart of
Brooklyn. Lydia Davis is a prose writer and translator living in upstate
New York. Recently out from High Risk are The End of the Story and Break It
Down. A new collection of stories called Almost No Memory is soon to be
published by Farrar-Strauss.
NOV 30 ROSS BROCKLEY, JIM KRELL
Jim Krell is the author of three collections of poetry: Here & Now, a Black
Sparrow imprint edited by Jonathan Williams, Vice of Woes, and On the
Advice of Wolves (Terminal Inc.). His new project is a series of love poems
to Michelle. He is a fixture in the east village. Ross Brockley performs
Monday nights at the Luna Lounge. His work has been described as the
surrealist mutterings of damaged goods. As Janeane Garafolo says in
Playboy, "I woke up and rolled over, and there was Ross Brockley. My first
thought was, Oh, I know that guy! He's funny. Thank God it's a good comic.
I mean he could have been a hack."
SATURDAY AFTERNOON READINGS begin at 2:30 pm, $3.00 contribution goes to
readers. THE EAR INN is at 326 Spring St. NYC. Coordinators for this
series are Lisa Jarnot (October) and Bill Luoma (November). Continuing
support of this series is provided by the Segue Foundation. Funding is
made possible by support from the Literature Program of the New York State
Council on the Arts. PLEASE SUPPORT THE EAR-- COME EARLY FOR LUNCH, STAY
LATE FOR DINNER!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:24:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Colleen Lookingbill <Zorlook@AOL.COM>
Subject: Dan Davidson
I first met Dan Davidson in 1987, at a bus stop following a poetry reading in
San Francisco. Our destination was hardly a block away from each other in
the same neighborhood and we soon became friends, of sorts, for a few years.
He had just abandoned involvement in the local punk rock scene, said
he knew Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys and bragged of his conquests in
picking up young women at the clubs. I believed him, he was capable of being
very charming and comedic. He had an incredible gift for talking-up strangers
in public. A walk with him to a used bookshop, to scavenge for treasures, was
a minor adventure, you never knew who he'd engage or where it would end. He
also collected photographs that he found on the street. He often did much of
his writing at the old, now defunct, SF Modern Art Museum. We attended some
of the contemporary music performances together there, at
what was known as the "Green Room." In those days, there were interesting
readings nearly every week, it seemed like a "scene", and Dan was a part of
it. The sound of his artificial heart valve ticking could be heard in the
audience, it was often mistaken for a loud watch, and Dan used to joke about
it. Eventually he hosted his own reading series at Forest Books.
Dan held a literary salon in the living room of his funky share apartment.
Some of the participants included Gary Sullivan, George Albon, David Gilbert,
Laurie Price, Spencer Selby and Colleen Lookingbill. Dan played matchmaker in
introducing me and encouraging me to date my wife-to-be. In the style of the
Situationists, Dan often created his own flyers of altered advertising
images, which he publicly posted or handed-out
himself. The Reagan - Bush years kept him busy. I remember he was very
excited about the release of the first BATMAN movie, which he read as a
postmodern sign of social crisis. He never held a straight job, as far as I
know, and he was proud of that. A sign outside his apartment gate read :
Anarchist Arboretum. He claimed his upstairs neighbors were SM professionals
and he could hear the screams at night. He decided to get a tattoo and chose
a simple circle or oval on his forearm (I believe).
Later, I became estranged from him, but ironically, after some years spent
living on the other side of the city, I relocated to a building close to his.
These last few years, I passed him on the street from time to time, exchanged
polite greetings, had no knowledge of his life, but he seemed content.
Jordon Zorker
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:28:32 BST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ira Lightman <I.Lightman@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Conceptual crit?
> Nirvana at the end was so alternative you could see their
> "alternativeness" in every record store in the land. They
were so
> alternative Cobain put a shotgun in his mouth to escape
the alternatives.
Or, alternatively, Mark Chapman put a gun in John Lennon's
mouth because of the double bind of being cool and a Rebel;
Lennon half said all Beatles songs were untouchable, half
that they were all rubbish and they "sold out" (his words)
with their first record; these schizoid indexes of value
exist in relation to some schizoid thing called society
which, for the people who don't care about Nirvana or any
of us on this list, don't matter *at all* on the
day-to-day basis that they seem to matter in this argument.
The point is not always to dent the present, but to
be true, and wait for it to be seen; *the* alternative.
Elvis Presley's first records, as records, were quiet
and minimal and not grabbing attention compared to
the pop culture they entered; after the pelvis hoo-hah,
that's why his work remains musical, not situationist.
The danger of quick reaction in this supposedly quick
e-medium is going for quick solutions, and not thinking.
There was one culture around Nirvana not unlike
the one that just poets (not critics) make around
poetry both straight and avant-garde: emotionally inept,
hyper, not interested in the feelings or the chords of
Kurt Cobain which helped stoke his internalised feelings
of no longer being alternative because he couldn't be
alternative in attitude to their satisfaction. One
member of this list privately once told me that he
laughed when he heard Lennon had been shot "he was
already dead"; that seems to me to be consumer culture
at its worst from an avant-gardist; it's yesterday's
product. Not to buy that attitude is alternative, no
matter your sales.
Ira Lightman
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:36:11 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: wheeler <wheeler@IS.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Assembling Alternatives
Having now read through the correspondence here, I only want to add my
thanks to Romana Huk. For me, it was a real joy to hear so many people
whose work I'd followed in one place, one time. I gave my own paper
late in the conference, and until then heard panels that tangentially
related in order to incorporate what came up -- I regretted all I missed.
I would be grateful to see any of the papers, in whole or part, posted to
the list; this may sate others' curiosity too, yes?
Susan Wheeler
voice/fax (212) 254-3984
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:01:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives
At 07:36 AM 9/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I would be grateful to see any of the papers, in whole or part, posted to
>the list; this may sate others' curiosity too, yes?
>Susan Wheeler
Conference papers may also be sent to me to be included in an online "book"
on the conference at the EPC!
---
Loss Glazier <lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu>
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:33:20 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Sun & Moon NAP and NAF competitions
Now that the season has begun, I thought you might
want to be reminded for yourself, your students, and
for your friends that Sun & Moon Press is still reading
manuscripts for its 1996 New American Poetry (NAP) and
New American Fiction (NAF) competitions.
The competitions are open from January 1 to December 30th
of each year. All manuscripts are read both in-house and
by an independent judge.
Full length manuscripts of either poetry or fiction may be
entered. Please put your name and address on the title page
(but do not repeat it elsewhere, since the manuscripts out
of house are read blindly).
There is a $25.00 entrance fee which is used toward the
publication of the books.
If you wish your manuscript returned after the competition
, please enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope.
The award winners are announced each year in February. And
the books will be published within the next calendar year.
This past year's (1995) winners were:
Poetry: Rob Fitterman, METROPOLIS (chosen by Bruce Andrews)
Fiction: Eleana Greenspan, POSSESSED BY A DEMON (chose by
Douglas Messerli)
Douglas Messerli
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:35:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Please send entries for the New American Poetry and
New American Fiction competitions to:
Sun & Moon Press
6026 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90036
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:13:59 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: catching up
In-Reply-To: <199609040404.AAA04161@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
reading through back numbers of the list -- still only getting online
about once a week from Boulder --
The Joe Lockard who authored the article spoken of favorably here last
week was one of the speakers on the panel I chaired at the Maine
conference this Summer -- I would invite list-o-philes to read Lockard's
piece and decide for themselves if his is guilty of reductive
sociological approaches to literature --
on newer news -- Creeley reads at Naropa this week-end --
Stan Brakhage has just been released from the hospital after major
surgery -- It looks like he'll be OK, but he's been through a real trial
-- I know there are lots of Brakhage fans out there, so I'll post an
update on his health next week --
love to all and sundry
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:51:33 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: no back channel
In-Reply-To: <199609080405.AAA14055@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Keith -- if you're still looking for Harryette's phone number, call me at
mine: (303) 541-9467
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:19:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Sorry to bother everyone again, but my most recent
post seemed to confuse as many people as it was meant
to reveal information.
For the both the NAF and NAP competitions, Sun & Moon
Press is interested only in previously unpublished full-
length manuscripts.
The chosen manuscript will be published, with a contract,
by Sun & Moon Press in its New American Fiction or New
American Poetry Series.
A full-length poetry manuscript must be at least 50 pages
70-150 is a more normal length.
Fiction manuscripts may be from 70 pages at may extend to
any length.
Douglas Messerli
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:11:51 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: cross-dressing
More biblio on this from Kyla McFarlane, who has just completed a
thesis on Fetishism in New Zealand and Australian art:
String of Pearls: Stories about Cross-Dressing ed. Tony Ayres, Allen
and Unwin, St Leonards, Australia, 1996. This may not be available
in the US yet.
Fetishism as Cultural Discourse, eds. Emily Apter and William Pietz,
Cornell University Press, Ithaca, 1993. This book also has a very
useful and extensive bibliography.
(Note particularly the article by Jann Matlock, pp.13-31. Another version of
Matlock's piece is reproduced in Grand Street, no.53, Summer 1995.)
Also, Valerie Steele's book Fetish: Fashion, Sex and Power, Oxford
University Press, 1996, might be of some use...
Marjorie Garber is a well known writer in this area, but you probably
already know of her. If not, her book entitled Vested Interests is a useful text.
Good luck...
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:25:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: David Tudor Memorial
In Celebration of
David Tudor
January 20, 1926 - August 13, 1996
Judson Memorial Church
55 Washington Square South
New York, New York
Tuesday, September 17, 1996
8:00 P. M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:27:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Sheila Murphy <Shemurph@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
Jordon, Thanks for sharing your experiences and feelings about Dan Davidson.
I only met him briefly in San Francisco when you and Colleen invited Peter
and me to read and during the reading for THE ART OF PRACTICE. Like so many
others, I will continue to admire Dan's work.
The fragilities or decisions of others often remain unknown to us.
Best to you and Colleen,
Sheila
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:14:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help (fwd)
Long political message follows, the gist of which is to send a message to
Clinton on the vetoing the federal ban on gay marriages. Why not?
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:28 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Joe.DiMilia@ncal.kaiperm.org
>Reply-To: EBOakPFLAG@aol.com
>Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help
>
>Are you as mad as I am about DOMA? Here's something to do. Pass the word:
>
>Subj: VETO DOMA - How to help
>Date: 96-09-09 22:52:28 EDT
>From: BLUE EYES2
>
>President Bill Clinton has been taking way too much advice from his
>right-wing advisors like Dick Morris on the subject of DOMA. He needs to
>know that we will not sit back and allow him to score election year
>points by denying basic rights to lesbian or gay Americans. It is the
>most important battle of our political lives and no matter what we think
>about the timing or the politics behind this issue, we cannot afford to
>sit this one out. This is an experiment in using the net for grass roots
>politics. Your voice will make a difference.
>
>To participate in this experiment:
>
>1. E-mail this message, exactly as it is, complete with this introduction
>to at least five of your friends. Add it to any mailing lists you are on.
>Please, distribute as widely as you can.
>
>2. Copy the message below the line, without this introduction, to a new
>e-mail message.
>
>3. Address that new message to: president@whitehouse.gov
>
>4. Fill in your name, street address and the date in the appropriate
>places top and bottom. The White House tosses e-messages with no street
>address.
>
>5. In the subject line, write VETO DOMA
>
>6. Hit the send button and your copy of message will be on its way to The
>White House.
>
>If you follow all of these directions the President could receive a few
>hundred thousand messages titled VETO DOMA. It would be too much to
>ignore.
>
>We can and will make a difference in 1996!
>
>your name
>your street address
>your city, state, & zip code
>
>_____________________________________________________
>
>>date<
>
>President Bill Clinton
>The White House
>1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
>Washington, DC
>
>Dear Mr. President:
>
>Republicans in Congress, with the help of many Democrats have passed
>the so called Defense Of Marriage Act, or DOMA. They created the
>bill from ignorance, from hatred for gay Americans and out of the desire
>to embarrass you in an election year. You helped its progress when, to
>make yourself look good in a election year, you announced early that you
>would sign it. Now, you must change your mind and do the right thing.
>Veto DOMA! We will not allow you to make political gains by creating pain
>for our gay Americans.
>
>DOMA is a dangerous threat to the civil liberties of gay Americans and to
>the Constitution itself. As Jim Crow laws once did to African Americans
>in the South, DOMA would use the mighty power of the federal government
>to deny to one class of citizens, gay Americans: income tax benefits,
>pensions, social security survivor benefits, access to partners in
>federal hospitals, immigration rights, and so much more that we have not
>yet considered. DOMA would create for the first time under federal law
>two classes of citizenship with different rights for gay and straight
>Americans. This divisive law threatens one of our most important
>Constitutional principles, equal protection under the law.
>
>You must do the right thing Mr. President. Speak out against the hatred,
>eschew the politics of division and rise above the political expedience.
>Do the right thing for your country and its citizens. Veto DOMA. Raise
>your voice against this monstrous injustice. Use the power of your veto
>pen to bring us together, instead of your signature to divide our nation
>by creating a new federally ordered apartheid system of injustice.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>your name
>your street address
>your city, state, & zip code
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:33:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Kevin Young's phone number
Would somebody please backchannel me with Kevin Young's phone number?
Would somebody
please backchannel me
with Kevin Young's
phone number?
Would somebody please backchannel me
with Kevin Young's phone number?
Thanks--
Jordan Davis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:23:59 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: update u of mn
hi guyzies sorry to clog the airwaves w/ matters distinctly less than poetic,
but it's impt to our situation here to get the word out/ so here's the latest
news, hot off the union meeting earlier today (that is, our hoping-to-be-union).
md
From: Tom Walsh <ufa@mnhepo.hep.umn.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:32:33 -0500
To: ufa@mnnt1.hep.umn.edu
Subject: Cease and Desist
Dear Colleague
Today the University Faculty Alliance filed our present authorization
forms with the Bureau of Mediation Services (BMS). We now have a copy of
the cease and desist ("maintenance of status quo") order which was faxed
to the University this afternoon. This will forestall any precipitous
action by the Board of Regents. Of course, we may have to defend this order
in court.
The maintenance order refers to the entire Twin Cities instructional
faculty. We regard this as meaning the AHC is included in the order. The AHC
is not included in the filing unit at this moment, but has until November 1
to join (as does the Law School).
As you know, this quick response of the faculty
was only possible due to broad agreement among many of us--UFA, AAUP, the
ad hoc "Group of 19", our Regents Professors and governance groups.
As a colleague observed:
"The guillotine is stuck halfway down."
This is at heart a fight to preserve the University as a major American
research university with access to Minnesotans regardless of their economic
status. It is not solely about tenure.
If we are to prevent the guillotine blade from falling the rest of the way,
we will have to continue a vigorous action to collect authorization forms
from the entire University. We need such numbers that the public and
legislature will be convinced that we are united and that the entire State
of Minnesota has a stake in the outcome.
Sincerely,
Paula Rabinowitz, Department of English
Thomas Walsh, Department of Physics
University Faculty Alliance
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:54:10 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Matt Kirschenbaum <mgk3k@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: query: langpo and its discontents
Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric
employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether
the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of
individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly
nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike
Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the
Pre-Raphaelites . . .
Thanks,
--Matt
=================================================================
Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia
mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English
http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:01:20 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Scott Bentley <Marott@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
I remember some years ago (say, 1986) that Clayton Eshelman had some pretty
fiery things to say about "L" poetry, but I can't remember where. It was
either in POETRY INTERNATIONAL, POETRY FLASH, or POETRY TODAY (I think).
Also, Bob Haas made an interesting single paragraph summary of "L" in an
interview in the S.F. EXAMINER about six months ago. Sorry not to be more
specific but your query caught my attention, so I thought I'd reply and get
you started. Hopefully someone else will remember the specifics.
Scott Bentley
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:17:21 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help (fwd)
It might be helpful to know that email is all but ignored in political
circles. The staff does not exist to adequately filter the mail. The
medium is considered too "impulse" to carry weight. As always a good
strong letter using your own words on real paper is worth a great deal more
in the process of deciding these things. In essence 10000 email messages
don't count nearly as much as one bona fide letter from a member of the
rotary club in bumfuk, idaho.
if email were to be the medium of choice it would perhaps be more
appropriate to aim it at those who will end up enforcing such a law rather
than those who make and enact such laws as the voices of enforcement will
undoubtably carry more weight than 10000 email messages.
filch
>Long political message follows, the gist of which is to send a message to
>Clinton on the vetoing the federal ban on gay marriages. Why not?
>
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Joe.DiMilia@ncal.kaiperm.org
>>Reply-To: EBOakPFLAG@aol.com
>>Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help
>>
>>Are you as mad as I am about DOMA? Here's something to do. Pass the word:
>>
>>Subj: VETO DOMA - How to help
>>Date: 96-09-09 22:52:28 EDT
>>From: BLUE EYES2
>>
>>President Bill Clinton has been taking way too much advice from his
>>right-wing advisors like Dick Morris on the subject of DOMA. He needs to
>>know that we will not sit back and allow him to score election year
>>points by denying basic rights to lesbian or gay Americans. It is the
>>most important battle of our political lives and no matter what we think
>>about the timing or the politics behind this issue, we cannot afford to
>>sit this one out. This is an experiment in using the net for grass roots
>>politics. Your voice will make a difference.
>>
>>To participate in this experiment:
>>
>>1. E-mail this message, exactly as it is, complete with this introduction
>>to at least five of your friends. Add it to any mailing lists you are on.
>>Please, distribute as widely as you can.
>>
>>2. Copy the message below the line, without this introduction, to a new
>>e-mail message.
>>
>>3. Address that new message to: president@whitehouse.gov
>>
>>4. Fill in your name, street address and the date in the appropriate
>>places top and bottom. The White House tosses e-messages with no street
>>address.
>>
>>5. In the subject line, write VETO DOMA
>>
>>6. Hit the send button and your copy of message will be on its way to The
>>White House.
>>
>>If you follow all of these directions the President could receive a few
>>hundred thousand messages titled VETO DOMA. It would be too much to
>>ignore.
>>
>>We can and will make a difference in 1996!
>>
>>your name
>>your street address
>>your city, state, & zip code
>>
>>_____________________________________________________
>>
>>>date<
>>
>>President Bill Clinton
>>The White House
>>1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
>>Washington, DC
>>
>>Dear Mr. President:
>>
>>Republicans in Congress, with the help of many Democrats have passed
>>the so called Defense Of Marriage Act, or DOMA. They created the
>>bill from ignorance, from hatred for gay Americans and out of the desire
>>to embarrass you in an election year. You helped its progress when, to
>>make yourself look good in a election year, you announced early that you
>>would sign it. Now, you must change your mind and do the right thing.
>>Veto DOMA! We will not allow you to make political gains by creating pain
>>for our gay Americans.
>>
>>DOMA is a dangerous threat to the civil liberties of gay Americans and to
>>the Constitution itself. As Jim Crow laws once did to African Americans
>>in the South, DOMA would use the mighty power of the federal government
>>to deny to one class of citizens, gay Americans: income tax benefits,
>>pensions, social security survivor benefits, access to partners in
>>federal hospitals, immigration rights, and so much more that we have not
>>yet considered. DOMA would create for the first time under federal law
>>two classes of citizenship with different rights for gay and straight
>>Americans. This divisive law threatens one of our most important
>>Constitutional principles, equal protection under the law.
>>
>>You must do the right thing Mr. President. Speak out against the hatred,
>>eschew the politics of division and rise above the political expedience.
>>Do the right thing for your country and its citizens. Veto DOMA. Raise
>>your voice against this monstrous injustice. Use the power of your veto
>>pen to bring us together, instead of your signature to divide our nation
>>by creating a new federally ordered apartheid system of injustice.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>your name
>>your street address
>>your city, state, & zip code
>>
>>
>>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
>Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
>Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
>913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:03:41 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: query & discontents
re the query seeking specific rhetoric involved with attacks on Langaueg
poetry--
A book that may be of use is Politics and Poetic Value edited by
Robert von Hallberg (Chicago: U of Chicago P, 1987). Specifically the
essays by Jerome J. McGann (Contemporary Poetry, Alternate Routes),
Charles Altieri (Without Consequences is No Politics: A Response to
Jerome McGann), McGann again (Response to Charles Altieri) and Jed Rasula
(The Politics of, the Politics in).
(Needless to say--re the recent poets/critics thread--these
present the rhetoric of the academy in dealing with the issues. Thus
should be taken as but one aspect among many of the question . . . )
Robert Smithson wrote: "Literal statements often conceal violent
analogies".
An interesting way to approach the question of specific
attacks--lines, words, phrases--might be to take statements for and
against Language Poetry--including those specific to Language Poetry
itself as statements, claims--and present them in juxtaposition.
The apposition of vocabularies of opposition may provide
interesting material for investigation.
The Utopian Moment by Norman Finkelstein may also be an
interesting book to look at.
hope these may be of use
--dbchirot
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:20:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
At 05:54 PM 9/13/96 -0400, Matt Kirschenbaum wrote:
>Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric
>employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether
>the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of
>individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly
>nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike
>Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the
>Pre-Raphaelites . . .
Well, I think the obvious place to start is Tom Clark's "Stalin as Linguist"
parts I and II, at least one of which was published in *Poetry Flash*. (I
think both parts are reprinted in a book of Clark's from the Michigan Poets
on Poetry series.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
Writing Across the University Program (919) 660-4357
Box 90023, Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
Durham, NC 27708 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
--Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:32:08 +0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: John Kinsella <kinsella@IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996
Does anyone know if Sulfur is still active? I've not heard of anything
appearing since early last year. Is Barbara Guest on e-mail? I'd like to
contact her re Salt poetry journal.
Thanks
John Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:30:55 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
there was a crazy piece in CONTACT II in the early 80's coming from a very
normative point of view--a good source for this stuff is Charles Bernstein who
kept track of all these polemics. A forgotten number is the exchange between
Eliot Weinberger and various L. Poets that was in three issues of Sulfur --
Weinberger has never collcted this in his volumes. Give a look to the responces
to my intro to LAN poetry that appeared in Poets & Writers circa '90 (article ws
called INk Mathematics), which is a rare glimpse of how everyday, non-theorist
types looked upon the work
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:48:51 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Keith Tuma <KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:32:08 +0800 from
<kinsella@IINET.NET.AU>
John Kinsella asks if Sulfur is still active.
It is, the next issue is due in late October or early November, but loss of
NEA money has meant, among other things, a reduction in the number of
distributors. Probably best, especially for those not in the US, to subscribe:
$14 for individuals; add $4 ($10 airmail) for foreign subscriptions.
Sulfur
c/o English Department
Eastern Michigan University
Ypsilanti, MI 48197
USA
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:01 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <lcabri@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
In-Reply-To: <960914133055_104047.2175_JHR94-1@CompuServe.COM> from "JOEL
LEWIS" at Sep 14, 96 09:30:55 am
If you're interested in cross border, take a look at Warren Tallman's
last collection of essays and letters, for a take on Steve McCaffery and
new Vancouver writing. Also see review by Brian Fawcett of the antho.
East of Main (which includes a section of writing by Derksen, Ferguson and
others), in The Georgia Straight circa 1990. - Louis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 08:10:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996
Barbara is not on E-mail.
I can provide her address. I'll back-channel you.
Douglas
=======================================
At 12:32 PM 9/14/96 +0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if Sulfur is still active? I've not heard of anything
>appearing since early last year. Is Barbara Guest on e-mail? I'd like to
>contact her re Salt poetry journal.
>
>Thanks
>
>John Kinsella
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:46:11 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
>Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric
>employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether
>the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of
>individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly
>nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike
>Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the
>Pre-Raphaelites . . .
Around ten years ago in the Poetry Flash (located in Berkeley) there was an
all out war against language poetry, with langpos sending angry letters
back. It was all anybody talked about for months. Here's the phone number
of the Flash: 510-525-5476. They might be able to help you.
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:04:06 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Matt Kirschenbaum <mgk3k@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
In-Reply-To: <199609141544.LAA24367@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> from "Louis Cabri" at
Sep 14, 96 11:44:01 am
Many thanks to everyone who's responded so far. All of your
suggestions have been helpful, even the one mailed to me
backchannel suggesting that I "begin with a study of Langpo's
rhetoric and critique of nearly everyone else."
--Matt
=================================================================
Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia
mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English
http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:43:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996
Latest _Sulfur_ I have is No. 38, Spring 1996.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:37:47 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Former Alliance member/_Turner Diaries_ expert says Hello! (fwd)
I haven't checked out the validity of this, so it may be a put on. But I
thought I'd forward it in case anyone can use the info. It came through
after I'd set the badsubjects list to "nomail" so perhaps there's a
reason? gab.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Milton Kleim <bn857@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Reply-To: bad@eng.hss.cmu.edu
Subject: Former Alliance member/_Turner Diaries_ expert says Hello!
Hello everyone!
I was a member of William Pierce's National Alliance for nearly a year,
and was an "associate" (i.e. follower) of his for much longer. I was the
chief (de facto) propagandist for the National Alliance on the Internet,
primarily USENET, for over two years. I was privy to much information
about the inner workings of the National Alliance (although I wish I had
even more knowledge). I had been invited to the Hillsboro, WV head-
quarters for the April 20th (Hitler's birthday) leadership conference, by
special signed invitation of Pierce. However, I did not attend due to a
major conflict which led to my resignation from (but not my disassociation
with) the Alliance. In fact, although I had trouble with Pierce's sale of
_the Turner Diaries_ to Barricade Books, I continued to support Alliance
Internet operations until June, including helping to write the TTD webpage
(http://www.natvan.com/turner.html) -- most of the words are mine, though
Pierce modified a few things I said.
Due to rather traumatic personal circumstances in late May and early June,
as well as a build-up of disgust and bitterness over the failings of the
White Nationalist "movement," I made a "resignation" statement in early
June (see my webpage -- "A Reckoning"). Further statements have been made
subsequently, and I am now completely free of the influence of the
"movement's" "persuasive" techniques. I am more than happy to speak my
mind about the potentially evil possibilites which the "movement" can
foster, as it has fostered in Oklahoma City.
Make no mistake about it: the "movement" can and probably will implement
further acts like the OKC bombing. This is most unfortunate, but a
terrible fact which cannot be avoided. The "movement's" ranks are, for
the most part, quite benign, as I was -- all talk -- but there are, sadly,
certain elements within it who are quite capable of anything, including
another OKC, or worse, using nuclear, biologial, or chemical weapons on a
much larger scale. Many of those in the "movement" who are prone to
violence are amoral and apolitical, but are driven to action by the hot
rhetoric I and others put out, including, especially, Pierce's _The Turner
Diaries_ and his even worse book, _Hunter_ (pretty much a "how-to" manual
for "do-it-yourself" assassination of political figures and interracial
couples). They are enthralled by the pursuit of power and thrill, and
killing people in such fashion as happened at OKC is the only way they can
fulfill their fantasies and perverted needs.
I know _the Turner Diaries_ (and _Hunter_) in depth, free of the media
distortion which occurs thanks to Mr. Dees and others. If anyone would
like my opinions on the matter, for curiosity, or for research, please do
feel free to ask. If I can help to prevent the further realization of Dr.
No's, uhh, I mean Dr. Pierce's "vision," I'm happy to do so.
Please do check out my webpage, which will explain many things about me.
There are also some rather bold statements against _the Turner Diaries_
archived at the Nizkor site, in files kleim.0896 and kleim.0996.
Good day to you all.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Sacramento
--
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748
--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:26:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: how the west was won and where it got us
Uilleain pipes,
Didn't Mark Wallace write an essay for Poetics Briefs about strong hostile
reactions to language poetry? For those of you who haven't read Mark's
essays, they're a trip -- cogent, fiery, encyclopedic. But I have to ask --
is any unexcited description of language poetry a 'discontented' reaction?
I've described language poetry a lot, often late at night, when
everything's turned down except the treble.
Jargon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:57:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Smith <CharSSmith@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
As follow-up to the Sulfur issues Joel Lewis mentioned, you might want to
look at Temblor 9, which has responses by Ben Hollander & David Levi Strauss
to Ron Silliman's "Negative Solidarity" that Eshleman published in Sulfur 22,
followed by a comapnion Silliman piece, "Poets & INtellectuals." These at
least get beyond the namecalling nonense that charcterized much of what was
printed in the Poetry Flash Dodie mentioned, & even Weinberger's stuff in
Sulfur.
I tempted to ask why anyoe wd want to dredge this stuff up, but, no, I really
don't want to ask.
all best,
charles
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:05:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Smith <CharSSmith@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
A critique of the Messerli anthology by Ben Friedlander can be found in Jimmy
& Lucy's House of "K" #8, which begins:
"Is this the great language poetry anthology?"
happy reading
charles
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:13:34 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: how the west was won and where it got us
please turn down the treble and let er rip.
>Uilleain pipes,
>Didn't Mark Wallace write an essay for Poetics Briefs about strong hostile
>reactions to language poetry? For those of you who haven't read Mark's
>essays, they're a trip -- cogent, fiery, encyclopedic. But I have to ask --
>is any unexcited description of language poetry a 'discontented' reaction?
>I've described language poetry a lot, often late at night, when
>everything's turned down except the treble.
>Jargon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:01:21 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Matt Kirschenbaum <mgk3k@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
In-Reply-To: <960916015753_523426868@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "Charles
Smith" at Sep 16, 96 01:57:54 am
After generous suggestions, Charles Smith asks by not asking:
> I tempted to ask why anyoe wd want to dredge this stuff up, but, no, I really
> don't want to ask.
My immediate interest is in poetries that have been branded as
"mechanistic" or "lifeless." Far be it from me to ever engage in
literary rubbernecking.
> all best,
> charles
>
Thanks, --Matt
=================================================================
Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia
mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English
http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:56:01 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: late assemblages (longish)
A belated addition to the Assembling
Alternatives footage, some of which Los showed to me when i
visited Buffalo and some of which I've missed in the interim.
I only just got back, having taken a longer route home via
Buffalo - archive, EPC (check out the web page that Los
launched for me there - you'll need Netscape 3.1. to view
the on-line animation / performance), readings, burgeoning
presses and clusters of younger poets. I hope that at least
some of what i add here is useful and doesn't repeat prior
reportage - having said which please bear in mind that i
haven't been able to read all of the exchanges to date.
Several points are sticking with me. They are
given in no particular priority. The fact that many of the
most energised moments at conferences and festivals occur
in the foyer or the bar or on a brief excursion into the
surrounding woodlands and rocky outrops and streets is
axiomatic. Nature, no doubt an arguably overextended schedule
contributed to this. However, the often inconsiderate
opening and closing of the clattering door at the back of
the main hall, especially during readings (as people voted for
al fresco discussion) bracketed some readings (of both
papers and poems) disolutely. "Let's talk about later" it was an
overheard limit of corridor would-be dialogue around the
'center' - conjoined by the feeling of desperately trying,
and often failing, to eat at two or three tables simultaneously.
There was a marked difference, in
the broadest sense, between the written cadences of those two broad
'sides' of that atlantic represented. The British (there lies imperial
many forms of evil embodied) and the North American ("same glutten
again!") poets sounded different not by dint of mere accent but
by phrase - by unit cadence - by rhythm. Someone could sort through
the recordings and work up a paper on this.
Also prevalent was a tendency (certainly shared
by this bullet head) to break into or close to song during poems.
I take this to signal a major shift towards orality in the versioning
of texts through performance. Denise Riley surely sang the blues on!
Notable mic-addressing techniques from Leslie Scalapino,
Karen MacCormack (wonderful whistling harmonics), Lisa Robertson (whose
'Debbie: an epic' is eagerly awaited), Denise Riley, Robert Sheppard,
Catherine Walsh. Many of the readings by the British poets were the
best i have heard them give. It was that level of occasion.
Some encroachment of low tec into the proceedings
must also be noted. Tom Raworth's use of 'Fred' or 'Frank' (there
seem to be differing names for the Stephen Hawking voice simulation
- i know that there are now half a dozen or more voicings available)
was salutary.
Stand-up comedy was the ghost in the conference geist.
Barrett Watten even deliberately generated heckling and summarily
despatched it. Uncontrollable outbreaks of laughter were provoked by
Randolph Healey, Steve McCaffery, Rae Armantrout (my reader of the
week), Jeff Derkson, Miles Champion, Chris Stroffolino, Hazel Smith
and Charles Bernstein. Each using a differing technique to crack the
crowd open.
Bearing in mind Fiona Templeton's deconstruction
of conference as a performance form and David Bromige's prone
presentation of podium behaviour (someone might give him a tv
show, with lounge setting, a long long mike lead and a fake
cigarette) - it was remarkable how some (though thankfully
not too many) of the papers and poems being voiced, lacked any
awareness of the performative aspects that the situation demanded.
I mean if you don't want to read out loud then post your materials
for silent consumption in the lobby, or tidy up your script
and have it presented without prejudice in the proceeds.
Discussion could follow readings of poems as well
as readings of papers. Time for robust large group discussions
has been lamented all round.
One highlight, for me, was listening to the
animated chatter of a packed busload on its way into Portsmouth
for the final night dinner. What an exquisite nest of birds!
More mischievous 'play' with the form of papers,
both in how they were written and how presented would be welcome.
The tactic of alluding to what can't be read for example,
given the constraints of time, seemed way underexplored
("skipping material on the hermeneutics of quotation", "I'm
cutting a bunch of stuff on Coolidge and astrology","no time for
the marital status of the number five, it'll be in the
published version", "sliding past several paragraphs
on the pre-millenial Carnival of Paradigms") as strategic
diversion. Then it might have been worth trying different
conference configurations in different rooms - in the round
for example (to state an obvious). In many respects then this
was an assemblage of contemporary conventions, and extremely
useful in being that. Interdisciplinarity was for the most part
noticeably absent and the authority of the 'text' in the dominant.
In this respect the film showings (by Fiona and
Abigail Child) were welcome. As too the hypertext / CD Rom / Video
presentations - but I'd like to have been able to play with that
technology in an installation available throughout.
But what of music / movement? - especially as so many
of those present work in collaborations of various kinds, or compose
themselves. These issues are integral to the development of our
poetics - as Barrett Watten suggested in what for me was a strong
closing paper, unfortunately hijacked by concerns which could more
usefully have formed the basis for an opening session. The gripes
raised mostly legitimate concerns - but were misplaced as end
notes.
The Leaning Tower of Pizza, along the drive to New
Hampshire from Boston has stuck in my memory. A fraying fabric
of signage, the neon of which was partially missing (or partially
representing), lining much of the route.
Allen Fisher (with whom, alongside Trevor Joyce,
i was rooming) reported back on the Continental Breakfast at the
Dover Days Inn as being a pink doughnut with an ice cold apple
and coffee. Forgoing that delight we walked in Dover, discussing
a collaboration for the Sunday night, admiring the angular
articulations given to junctional space by telegraph poles.
Allen's own paper on narrativity and consciousness
(great to hear him read 'Bel Air' again btw) elicited my
favourite overheard exchange. Two men in the men's toilet:
1. "It could take you the rest of your life to think through all
of the things in that paper"
2. "I was hoping to have my consciousness expanded, but ended up
feeling pretty stupid"
1. "There you are you see, you did have your consciousness expanded"
There was a curious feeding frenzy as books were
released from cardboard boxes amid the registrations before the
first evening reading even began. I'd like to second Keith Tuma's
comment on the urgency of keeping the channels open on nuts and bolts
of book exchange / information and distribution that such a list as
this can only partially fulfill. The sheer fact that the Irish poets
had never met each other is staggering proof enough of the need for
more such events and better channels of communication.
Many of those who had had some exchanges through
this medium were meeting for the first time. I found all of this,
putting a hand and a hug and a voice and a face to a name, close to
exhilerating. It was curious how many people, myself not included,
seemed to have formed an image of each other from their post.
And then there were all those who, for various
reasons, were missing and sorely missed.
see you in Dublin, Sydney, Vancouver, Cape Town, Rotterdam
or London
love and love
cris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:48:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian McHale <BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: late assemblages (longish)
In-Reply-To: Message of 09/16/96 at 14:56:01 from cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK
Grateful for cris cheek's reminder of the riches at Durham, after some the some
what recriminatory tone of some recent postings on that thread. Myself, I came
away with pages of Things to Do: books to read, people to contact, items to
track down etc.
So here's one: I heard tell of a piece by Gilbert Adair on Bruce Andrews in
"Reality Studio" 10. That's not available anywhere in my immediate neighbor-
hood, so I want to try to reel it in through Interlibrary loan -- for that I
need exact title & page numbers. Could someone in the know kindly supply
those? Back-channel would be fine, unless you think the list at large might
want to share the reference.
Thanks, Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:54:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
Charles,
I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send
me a xerox of that review. Is it any good?
Douglas
At 03:05 AM 9/16/96 -0400, you wrote:
>A critique of the Messerli anthology by Ben Friedlander can be found in Jimmy
>& Lucy's House of "K" #8, which begins:
>
>"Is this the great language poetry anthology?"
>
>happy reading
>
>charles
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:18:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian McHale <BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: late assemblages (longish)
In-Reply-To: Message of 09/16/96 at 10:48:54 from BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU
I take it all back. Incredibly, within minutes of posting that request for
infor on Adair on Andrews, I received a photocopy of it in the mail. What does
this mean?
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:08:17 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Charles Norman
Does anyone have information on the poet Charles Norman? I was told he died
over the weekend at the age of 92.
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:20:00 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brigham Taylor <BTaylor@BROOKLYN.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Theraputix
Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the
"poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying,
going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological
complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity
Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz,"
etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems
as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for
chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway
Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems
to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My
Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The
Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal
well-being??
Brigham
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:33:08 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry Gould <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Theraputix
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:20:00 EDT from
<BTaylor@BROOKLYN.CUNY.EDU>
Take a look at a new book by Russian writer Vitaly Shentalinsky,
called "Arrested Voices", for another take on this question.
Chapt 4 describes how poet/scientist Nina Hagen-Torn survived
the Gulag & helped many others by composing, memorizing, &
reciting poems.
Shentalinsky has been a pioneer in getting access to KGB files on
victimized writers under Stalin; the book covers the "trials"
& punishment of Isaac Babel, B. Pilnyak, Mandelstam,
Pavel Florensky, many others, with a lot of long-hidden documentary
material. - H. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:04:39 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: how the west was won and where it got us
In-Reply-To: <v01530501ae623248d989@[166.84.199.56]>
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote:
> Uilleain pipes,
Oh uilleain pipes, indeed and indeed, a fine job altogether. g
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:27:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Charles Smith <CharSSmith@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
In a message dated 96-09-16 11:08:59 EDT, you write:
<< I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send
me a xerox of that review. Is it any good?
Douglas >>
Jimmy & Lucy's never made it into the 90's. The last issue of J & L was #9,
Jan '89. Ben's review was in #8, Jan '88 & is a fair critique from a
sympathetic reader who (largely) reviews the book w/ yr stated aims in sight.
charles
Looking at the issue again today, I noticed that there is also a review of
_Tree_ in it by David Sheidlower.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:47:39 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stan Brakhage
In-Reply-To: <199609150402.AAA26957@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Brakhage's cancer surgery was successful -- He has been released from the
hospital and is recovering at home, still working his way through Ronald
Johnson's _Ark_ last I spoke to him.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:46:01 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" <anielsen@ISC.SJSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dan Davidson
In-Reply-To: <199609150402.AAA26957@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
I got as far as the news about Dan last week and was stopped in my tracks
-- it was truly unexpected -- I can't get to the memorial -- but I will
record one memory here --
I first began talking with Dan after he instigated a wonderful week-edn
conference during his time at San Francisco State -- A couple of years
later, Dan, Spencer Selby and I drove up to Crag Hill's place for a
publication reading honoring the chapbook of Dan's that Crag had just put
out. I was doing a radio program still in those days, and brought along
my recording equipment. Whenever Spencer, Dan and I were together, there
was fiery conversation. That much time together in a car produced a lot
of sparks, one of the most informative drives I've ever taken.
As the reading got under way, I noticed a distinct ticking sound in my
earphones. I asked Dan to take off his watch. He told me the sound was
coming from his heart. I thought Dan was still putting me on, as he had
in the car a time or two. He handed me his watch at last; it was digital
-- non-ticking -- I was suitably abashed -- The reading was tremendous --
Later that week, as I broadcast Dan's poetry to a South Bay audience of
thousands, I sat there in the booth listening to Dan's wonderful work,
and his heart valve. It will always be good to have that recording of
Dan, but it will always hurt,
and I will always be grateful to Dan for giving that work to us
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:54:15 +1100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ralph Wessman <Ralph.Wessman@FORESTRY.TAS.GOV.AU>
Subject: Eric Beach
Laura wrote (1st May) ... the American left and artists have a long
way to go to even touch the coattails of their Australian counterparts
TT.O, thalia, Chris Mann, ACR, Jas Duke, lauren Williams, Eric Beach,
Carmel Bird....
Toby Green wrote (3rd May) ... Interesting to see Eric Beach surface
in a list of Australian poets. He got anthologized some years back as
a young NZ poet.
Just to add, Eric was named joint winner a fortnight ago of the
Kenneth Slessor Award (a major prize - part of the New South Wales
Premier's Award) for his recent (fourth) collection, `Weeping for Lost
Babylon'. - great news.
Regards
Ralph Wessman, Hobart
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:46:43 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Kellogg <kellogg@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents
At 07:27 PM 9/16/96 -0400, Charles Smith wrote:
>In a message dated 96-09-16 11:08:59 EDT, you write:
>
><< I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send
> me a xerox of that review. Is it any good?
>
> Douglas >>
>
>
>Jimmy & Lucy's never made it into the 90's. The last issue of J & L was #9,
>Jan '89. Ben's review was in #8, Jan '88 & is a fair critique from a
>sympathetic reader who (largely) reviews the book w/ yr stated aims in sight.
>
>
>charles
>
>Looking at the issue again today, I noticed that there is also a review of
>_Tree_ in it by David Sheidlower.
This exchange was fun to watch.
I think the obvious confusion here was over which
"book" was being reviewed. I too briefly thought
you might have been referring to *From the Other Side
of the Century* until I remembered Douglas's *'Language'
Poetries* from an appropriate period and came to my senses.
Momentary time-warp -- good for the soul.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu
Writing Across the University Program (919) 660-4357
Box 90023, Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381
Durham, NC 27708 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/
There is no mantle
and it does not descend.
--Thomas Kinsella
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:10:50 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: (Forwarded) AWOL: Olympic Sports Poet Winners announced
A top spin on literary competitions
INAUGURAL OLYMPIC SPORTS POET WINNERS
ANNOUNCED
The winners of the inaugural Olympic Sports Poet Award were announced at the NSW
Writers Centre Spring Writing Festival. The judges of the competition were
Ron Pretty and Les Wicks and the awards were presented by Andrew
Landenberger, current Olympic Champion in yachting (Tornado class).
The winners were:
FIRST PRIZE: 'First Lady' by Louise Wakeling. Study of the trials of Kay
Cottee's history making solo voyage around the world.
SECOND PRIZE: "Day my father came to football - Part 2' by Myron Lysenko.
Lysenko's threat of intensive training has paid off with this record
setting story of parents and benches.
THIRD PRIZE: "Work of knowing" by ShaunAnne Tangney. Interestingly also
concerned with parents....and basketball.
FIRST PRIZE (Junior): "Not last anymore" by Edwina Lau. The thrill, and
relief, of coming second last.
Competition promoter Michael Katefides said " I am delighted by the way the
Sports Poet competition has been accepted in both the sport and literary
communities. The internet proved successful in facilitating entries world
wide with one being a prize winner. The continued expansion of the Sport
Poet award is more than justified when one sees the enthusiasm of the
entrants, particularly those of the juniors."
Continuing judge, Les Wicks, noted the sharp increase in the standard of
the entries. The fact that two of the winners also won last year is no way
indicative of the scarcity of quality entries.
The winning pieces will be on display at the Network Tennis Australia
Centres at Annandale and Wicks Park. Poems are also available for
reproduction. For further information contact NTA at 210 Annandale NSW 2038
Australia. Phone 61 2 9566 2100, fax 61 2 95172466.
AWOL
Australian Writing On Line
awol@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol
PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia
Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970
Fax 61 2 7472802
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)9351 5066
MOBILE 015063970
FAX:(02)9351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:31:20 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pierre Joris <joris@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: [Fwd: the Outsider]
Thought this may interest those in the LA area, but others as well:
>
> The Outsider (after the Colin Wilson book of the same name) is dedicated to
> independent and small press publications and productions--zines, books,
> music, performance, etc. We have the largest instore selection of zines in
> the LA area --local, national and international publications--and a select
> choice of 'alternative' press books from Atlas to Masquerade to
> Semiotext(e). The bookstore is located at the borders of Silverlake, Los
> Feliz, Hollywood and Los Angeles on Fountain Ave between Vermont and
> Sunset. Some upcoming events include readings by science fiction erotica
> publisher Cecilia Tan of Circlet Press; world renowned poet, translator
> and editor Jerome Rothenberg; cyberpunk/avant-pop philosopher, critic and
> editor, Larry McCaffery; and screenings of Dreyer's "The Passion of Joan of
> Arc" and Jack Smith's "Flaming Creatures."
>
> take care
> james adams
>
> the Outsider Bookstore
> 4505 Fountain Avenue
> Los Angeles, CA 90029
> ph #(213) 660-4361
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:29:31 +0900
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Nada Gordon <nada@GOL.COM>
Subject: Dan the flaneur
The last time I saw Dan was about five years ago. He was coming out of the
UC Berkeley art museum, scowling and looking internal. He seemed not at
all surprised to see me, although I hadn't seen him for a few years and he
knew well I was no longer a bay area resident. In fact he barely spoke to
me, and I was a little offended.
Much later he apologized for his brusqueness via e-mail, explaining he'd
just witnessed a fight which much disturbed him.
I asked him in one of our infrequent e-mail exchanges how his physical
being was. He said that being sick just made him realize more sharply that
he was under the same sentence as everyone else. I wish I still had this
message.
I do still have a poem he sent me in April. I take the liberty of sharing
it here:
>Now, other, after
>
>
>Where is it, the bus you've been traveling
>the corners and waiting, streets along
>blankets, retrospection, libraries
>of flowers and fervent ledges in uneasy itinerary
>observed, bare there before you.
>
>What is it to learn at birth
>or to have, in the unrest of the streets
>no place at all except blindness.
>I don't know who you are, here among everyone
>the layers of innocence and youth
>
>and corruption, except that each moment, every breath
>reaches through the air of another person
>so perfectly, indecent, ignorant of effects
>like a recent memory of hunger.
>I wish you were here, cradling the starlight out of the sky.
>
>I have no answers, and expect none
>so no single, solitary story is likely to be enough
>for me, laying its quiet head on a pillow...
>this is the larger part of any opportunity, even
>the dictum of impermanence that gnaws at a flowering day
>
>one color at a time, how it gets into the skin
>and then into the ink, the ice there and the warm pleasure.
>
>
>daniel davidson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:35:44 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Theraputix
brigham writes:
> Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the
> "poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying,
> going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological
> complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity
> Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz,"
> etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems
> as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for
> chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway
> Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems
> to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My
> Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The
> Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal
> well-being??
>
> Brigham
i can see why poetry's value is in some ways its purported LACK of "use value,"
and that the scenario above wd be offensively, well, and literally, prescriptive
to many folks on this list. however, if poetry saves lives --and probably many
folks here have experienced that --who is anyone to say precisely *how* it shd
do so. i've had students turn on to David antin, of all poets, as a model of
therapeutic journaling because of the "lack" of punctuation. i know someone who
was inspired not to kill herself because she saw a caffe fassett (knitting and
needlepoint designer) video so full of beautiful colors it gave her hope. i've
recounted before on the list a scene in a documentary about a lesbian wedding in
which the trite free verse of a hallmark card was read aloud as the moment of
deepest feeling between the women. hey, i can laugh at their taste (and i do
find the scene comical as well as moving), but to respond *only* with dismissive
contempt is to miss something. wouldn't *you* be glad to know that one of your
poems --maybe not even one you thought that highly of, or one taken so out of
context that you felt that the reader had "misunderstood" it --saved a life?
--md
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:53:36 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Golumbia <dgolumbi@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stan Brakhage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960916164618.23315B-100000@athens> from "Aldon L.
Nielsen" at Sep 16, 96 04:47:39 pm
I got the "Re:" but not the original message on this... can somebody
reiterate the details?
Aldon L. Nielsen wrote:
>
> Brakhage's cancer surgery was successful -- He has been released from the
> hospital and is recovering at home, still working his way through Ronald
> Johnson's _Ark_ last I spoke to him.
>
--
dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu
David Golumbia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:39:37 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: the end of the world can be directly traced to robert creeley
teaching at black mountain college or how i shot the
fetishization of text and survived to tell the tale
<html>
<head>
<title>
The End of the World Can
Be Directly Traced to Robert
Creeley
</title>
<base
href="http://www.chronoto
pe.com/">
</head>
<!- frAmed ->
<frameset
cols="20,*"
><frame
marginwidth="0"
marginheight="0"
scrolling="no"
name="navbar"
noresize
border="no"
src="/Robert_Creeley/lingui
stic.html"
><frame
marginwidth="0"
marginheight="0"
scrolling="auto"
name="active"
noresize
border="no"
src="/Robert_Creeley/path.
html"
></frameset>
<!- frAmed close ->
<noframes>
<body
bgcolor="#ffffff"
background="/i/shaft.gif"
link="#000000"
alink="#000000"
vlink="#ffffff"
><p>
<table
width="480"
border="0"
><tr><td
width="310"
valign="top"
colspan="1"
><p><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="310"
height="1"
></p><p><a href="/(mt)v/"
name="explication"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='explication serves or
rather, enrage'; return true"
><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="180"
height="70"
hspace="20"
vspace="10"
border="0"
></a></p><p><a href="//"
name="explication"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='service an explanation,
engage'; return true"
><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="150"
height="78"
hspace="10"
vspace="5"
border="0"
align="left"
></a><a href="//"
name="explication"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='explicate rather
sucking meats, flange';
return true"
><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="80"
height="80"
hspace="20"
vspace="5"
border="2"
align="left"
></a></p><br
clear="left"
><p><a href="//"
name="explication"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus=', enrage - at least that
for a heterosexual audience';
return true"
><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="90"
height="60"
hspace="5"
vspace="3"
border="0"
></a></p></td><td
width="170"
rowspan="2"
><p><img
src="/i/dot_clear.gif"
width="170"
height="15"
></p>
<p><font
size="+1"
>"I mean the bottoms
are always scared. I always
try to tell them, 'Look,
<a
href="http://www.klaaskids
.inter.net/pg-0521.htm"
name="porn"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='is one of the few
contemporary occupations';
return true"
>I'm not going to hurt
you.</a> <a
href="http://www.math.tau.
ac.il/~nin/relax.html"
name="relax"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='if you relax comfort';
return true"
>Just relax</a> - <a
href="http://www.vix.com/
men/falsereport/daterape/gut
mann.html"
name="daterape"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='false report, a former
fireman'; return true"
>it's not going to be that
bad.</a>'
</p>
<p>
<a
href="http://copernicus.bbn.
com/people/PDavis/htl-
chapt2.html"
name="does"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='does knot'; return true"
>I do</a> have a big dick
and I know that.
</p>
<p>
But the bottoms are always
scared because they're
usually <a
href="http://www.ygc.com/
ygcnew.htm"
name="guys"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='we are going to bond
we are going to
change';return true"
>young guys</a> - <a
href="http://www.golf.com/
tour/pgatour/ryder/interview
s/0920coupstr.htm"
name="first"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='receivable criteria';
return true"
>it might be their first
time</a>. You can see the
look of <a
href="http://www.ljworld.c
om/LJW/archives/sports/05
1396s2.html"
name="jelly"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='grow your business';
return true"
>fear in their eyes</a>.
</p>
<p>
You know, think about it.
<a
href="http://www.zen.org/~
jeffrey/cigarette.html"
name="collage"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='what happens when
you run out of collage?';
return true"
>You're eighteen
years old</a>, and all of a
sudden you're in a <a
href="http://www.spe.sony
.com/Pictures/SonyMovies/
netexclsv.html#IRWIN"
name="redrum"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='rooms without
person'; return true"
>room full of people</a>
with lights and cameras
watching you, <a
href="http://www.thonline.
com/news/th0506/stories/97
99.htm"
name="near"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='nearly dormant in mat,
because linguistic'; return
true"
>butt naked</a>, as you get
a <a
href="http://rs.internic.net/c
gi-bin/whois?cock.com"
name="vagina"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='vaginal inflection';
return true"
>cock</a> <a
href="http://www.cs.umbc.
edu/pub/funny/pickups"
name="violence"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus=' e n g i n e e
r '; return true"
>shoved up your</a> <a
href="http://rs.internic.net/c
gi-bin/whois?ass.com"
name="memories"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='within an other entry';
return true"
>ass</a>.</p>
<p><a
href="http://www.virtual.co
.il/news/news/arutz7/news.f
eb22-96.htm"
name="memories"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='please assume to
instruct'; return true"
>It hurts, but</a> <a
href="http://www.dot.state.
tx.us/tdotnews/trnscrpt/109
5trns.htm"
name="memories"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='within an other entry';
return true"
>you don't want to
say anything</a> and let
people know what
you're feeling, and <a
href="http://www.worldgol
f.com/wglibrary/october/par
sons.html"
name="memories"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='with an urge towards
meaning'; return true"
>everyone is watching
you</a>, so you can't
relax and let it go in.</p>
<p>It's very
frightening, and <a
href="http://robotics.stanfor
d.edu/Ratlist/rats-digest-
v2.archive/0077.html"
name="memories"
onMouseOver="window.sta
tus='a kind of guidebook
through the workings of the
psyche'; return true">the
boys are scared</a>
shitless, because they know
it can be a bad
experience."</font></
p></td></tr></table></p>
</body>
</html>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:13:16 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Padmasambhava
"When the iron eagle flies and horses run on wheels the Tibetan people will
be scattered over the earth and the dharma will go to the land of the red
man,"
--Padmasambhava, 8th Century AD
Someone had asked for this a while back. Finally found it in a notebook.
--Rod
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:36:53 -0600
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: David Benedetti <dbenedet@UNM.EDU>
Subject: Confidential to everybody on the list
How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's
confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's
imaginary dildo?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu>
Is there a choice? Can we switch renga-channels and hear instead about
Messrs. Bernstein, Rothenberg, and Joris hanging out of the windows at
the Chelsea Hotel whilst Mme. Perloff duped Rod Smith with a counterfeit
Ouija board and M. Gould tottered out of the bathroom/storeroom holding a
crumpled leather bag?
Signed, Wondering
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:01:50 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
well now david, that's an interesting question. it was my understanding that
these msgs were not confidential; that they were, in fact, staged specifically
for the enjoyment of the poetix audience, and that, privately, loden, wallace
and bowering have more likely than not never spoken, met or corresponded. i may
be wrong. i've been enjoying the whacky thread that has also included others at
times, but if the players want to retire or think they're pushing the envelope
on "good taste" or whatever, i'm happy to leave the decision to them. i have
not felt my sensibilities to be violated, though in this day plus age, one can't
be too careful; loden, bowering et al may be called up before the internet
family values committee and given a brisk public spanking. xo as ever, md
In message <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu> UB Poetics
discussion group writes:
> How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's
> confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's
> imaginary dildo?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:21:46 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
i have been enjoyingt the thread immensely. in the midst of so much talk
of how a Modern Poetics must be able to make fun of itself, i found this
thread a charming example of precept in action. also, it was fun to have
somehting funny in the middle of all the usual nervous seriousness.
e
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:23:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" <pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Comments: To: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Only if it's a talking dildo. If it's a talking dildo, why then fine.
Something along the lines of the Brazen Head of Friar Bacon. Why then, yes,
by all means, Let 'er rip. But if not, then not.
----------
From: maria damon
To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 3:11PM
well now david, that's an interesting question. it was my understanding
that
these msgs were not confidential; that they were, in fact, staged
specifically
for the enjoyment of the poetix audience, and that, privately, loden,
wallace
and bowering have more likely than not never spoken, met or corresponded. i
may
be wrong. i've been enjoying the whacky thread that has also included
others
at
times, but if the players want to retire or think they're pushing the
envelope
on "good taste" or whatever, i'm happy to leave the decision to them. i
have
not felt my sensibilities to be violated, though in this day plus age, one
can't
be too careful; loden, bowering et al may be called up before the internet
family values committee and given a brisk public spanking. xo as ever, md
In message <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu> UB
Poetics
discussion group writes:
> How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's
> confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's
> imaginary dildo?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:38:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
Significant is D Benedetti's hostility -- which was something I certainly
felt when I had just started reading the list a year and a half ago -- and
which is a standard reaction of people entering poetry 'scenes' -- I asked
Charles Bernstein once at the ear whether he knew why people behaved that
way -- I was myself shaking with rage at having to be at the ear at the
time -- I wanted a diagnosis -- he said he had an idea but just then the
reading started and I forgot to ask him ever again -- why do people get
angry at poetry discussions when they're about to start talking in them --
I would supply some more first-person narrative / anecdotes but it's been
too long since I started blabbing my head off about things I know nothing
about -- that is, I'm past hostility and part of the problem -- I hope --
Jordan --
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:38 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "M. Gould" <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400 from
<gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400 Gwyn McVay said:
>Is there a choice? Can we switch renga-channels and hear instead about
>Messrs. Bernstein, Rothenberg, and Joris hanging out of the windows at
>the Chelsea Hotel whilst Mme. Perloff duped Rod Smith with a counterfeit
>Ouija board and M. Gould tottered out of the bathroom/storeroom holding a
>crumpled leather bag?
I've been trying really hard to restrain my probabblenouncements on this
list, but now I have to take my stand & set the record straight. I was
not tottering. I was rehearsing for my upcoming Reading (note to self:
remember to check mail for Invitation To Read). Furthermore, it was not
a leather bag. It was Plasmahyde. & I will act as my own lawyer from
heretofore and what'smoretofore etc. etc. [see attached deposition].
Judge Elmer Pudge is handling this case, he's known to be tough on the
bench (it looks like a very warped skateboard). So bring your flip
pads, ginnelmen & ladles of the 4th estate: this one's going over
the top. [1. excerpted from: _The National Enquirer : A Bibliography
of Contemporary Scandals, Mysteries, and Visitations_, ed. by
Ridgewood Frobisher. Squeamish Univ. Press, 1983]
- M. Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:17:11 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes,
or just whether we are in favor of public spanking, or that we don't have
to be responsible for the spanking, hire the spankeurs, be the spankees,
but through no fault of our own get to be there,
or is someone about to admit in public that no matter how much confidentiality
that dildo violated, his wife stands by him?
beth
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:53:31 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
Jordan wrote:
I asked Charles Bernstein once at the ear whether he knew why people behaved
that
way -- I was myself shaking with rage at having to be at the ear at the
time -- I wanted a diagnosis --
____
I had similar reactions at the throat and knows, but there was no doctor
bernstein on hand to ask.
Re: the dildo-- no fun if it's just made up, when there's a real one, then it
will make an interesting thread. And now that Maria's promised spankings-- oh
wow, this is big treat!
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:33:13 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: wystan <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland
Subject: Re: Theraputix
Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU
Maria
You speak of how Poetry Saves Lives. I've also heard tell it can
kill. Sure, I'd be glad if a poem of mine--no matter how misread it was
(although I do have insurance cover for the misreading of my
work)--saved a life, about like I'd be sad if someone died because of a
poem of mine. But I'd still put in my claim.
Your good health
Wystan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:58:31 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
Hi David Benedetti,
I'm a bit late on this one, but I've been
following the electronic epistolary tale cum electronic renga-novel
with bated breath, on the edge of my seat, while poets and critics
were confusing one another on the other channel. Is there such a
thang as an e'couteur, as distinct from a voyeur, it's me.
I'm glad tho yr objection is now public, rather than back-channel. As
always, you have yr trusty Delete button at hand?
all the best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:01:46 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Eric Beach
Dear Ralph, is that a typo, Toby Green? Glad to know E Beach is alive
and well and active. I liked the anthologized NZ poems.
best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:22:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Eric Beach
>Dear Ralph, is that a typo, Toby Green? Glad to know E Beach is alive
>and well and active. I liked the anthologized NZ poems.
>best
>
>Tony Green,
>e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
I just remebered a grant Cauldwell poem about standing on the shore of a
bay in Tasmania (hi Ralph) with Eric smoking a joint and arguing about the
moonlight.........
__________________________________
Mark Roberts
Student Systems Project Officer
Information Systems
University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia
M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au
PH:(02)9351 5066
MOBILE 015063970
FAX:(02)9351 5081
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:21:49 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
Now wait: someone said i "promised spankings" --i did no such thing. Here at
the Internet Family Values Ass'n, all public spankings are fully consensual and
cannot be promised by any other than the prospective spankees. Our highly
trained specialists are ready to punish, avec bells and whistles etc, any and
all willing spankees, be they of the loden-bowering, uh, stripe or of the, uh,
how can i put this, benedetti persuasion. i cannot promise for them. they must
submit willingly.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:48:15 -0600
Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
thread trashing is easy. if you want to change the subject or start
a new thread, go right ahead. trash may float, but it don't fly.
Pete Landers
(by the way, this is a new address)
landers@frontiernet.net
David Benedetti wrote:
>
> How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's
> confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's
> imaginary dildo?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:53:05 -0600
Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Theraputix
It is difficult to get the poetry from the news...
Brigham Taylor wrote:
>
> Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the
> "poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying,
> going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological
> complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity
> Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz,"
> etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems
> as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for
> chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway
> Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems
> to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My
> Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The
> Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal
> well-being??
>
> Brigham
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:21:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
>How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's
>confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's
>imaginary dildo?
This benedetti guy must have dildos on the mind. There was no dildo,
imaginary or otherwise, mentioned at all in our rather unsubtle satire of
US Leftist adventurism.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:33:15 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
>Now wait: someone said i "promised spankings" --i did no such thing.
Now look, Maria, you promised me one via back-channel. Okay, maybe that
doesnt count, certainly not as a "public" spanking.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:35:13 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list
i thought the object in question was col. mustard's candle stick holder.
and here i was trying to shape my wick and get it to stand up, boy i feel
stupid.
>This benedetti guy must have dildos on the mind. There was no dildo,
>imaginary or otherwise, mentioned at all in our rather unsubtle satire of
>US Leftist adventurism.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:04:18 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Hoist the spanker.
At 04:17 PM 9/17/96 EST, you wrote:
>Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes,
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:47:52 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Barbara Guest reading in San Francisco
Hi it's Kevin Killian. Perhaps some of you who live in San Francisco or
who will be here Sunday will want to come to see Barbara Guest, who will be
reading at Avery Burns' series at Canessa Park, Sunday, the 22nd, at 3:00
p.m. It's the book launch for her new book, the title of which I cannot
properly reproduce via e-mail, but it's something like "Quill Solitary
Apparition" (with lots of different spaces and italics) from Post Apollo
Press.
This appearance should answer the question, how will La Guest top her last
public appearance. Bay Area theater goers have awarded her the Sarah
Siddons prize for her remarkable Margo-Channing style performance in my
play "Island of Lost Souls" this past spring. She tore up the stage as
Clarice, the sister of Claus von Bulow...Clarice, a character torn from a
lost John Webster Jacobean decadent play, obsessed by her incestuous
relationship with her brother (played by Rex Ray), bitterly opposed to his
marriage to spoiled, insipid, diabetic heiress Sunny (Alicia Wing). "Blow
out the candles, Clarice!" Anyway although she will be playing no
character on Sunday, she is still a diva assoluta and it should be quite a
show!! Thanks everyone.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:25:00 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Tom Field show opens in San Francisco
Hi, it's Kevin Killian. I hope all of you on this list who live here in
San Francisco (or anyone who plans to visit here within the next 6 weeks of
so) will get the chance to see this wonderful show which opens tomorrow.
It's called "Paintings from Black Mountain College and the Beat Era," it's
the first large show of the work of the late Tom Field, who died here a
year ago, and this is the address: 871 Fine Arts, 49 Geary Street, San
Francisco.
Tom Field was born in 1930, went to Black Mountain College (there's a great
story in Martin Duberman's book about the time he tried to run down Robert
Creeley in a car), met Robert Duncan and Jess there @ 1956, and came to San
Francisco when the College closed in 1957. In San Francisco he joined a
host of other "Mountaineers" including Joe Dunn, John Wieners, Basil King,
etc., etc. and began work as a merchant mariner, shipping out and shipping
in, a sailor's life, blah blah blah. While on land he produced in short
order at least a dozen large A-E type magnificent paintings and became Jack
Spicer's favorite painter. For a while he lived in the famous East-West
House where he met Joanne Kyger, Lew Welch, Jack Kerouac, Lenore Kandel and
so forth (in Kerouac's novel "Big Sur" he appears under the name "Lanny
Meadows," not so imaginative I suppose). Last year he died there @ 65.
Robin Blaser has written the essay that accompanies this show, which
gathers together for the first time most of the great pictures from the
late fifties and early sixties, drawn from a variety of private collections
(Kyger, Jess, Fran Herndon, Ernie Edwards, etc). I sneaked in to the
gallery last Saturday, while the Rauschenberg show was still up, and saw
the Field pictures leaning against the walls, not hung yet, and I was blown
away. If there's any justice this exhibition should re-write Bay Area art
history...it's miles better than SFMOMA's over-hyped "Abstract
Expressionists of San Francisco" show which is running concurrently. Come
on down! Tell me what you think. The reception is tomorrow (Thursday)
between 5:30 and 7:30--California time, so you could probably show up
Saturday and the reception would still be going on. Thanks everyone!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:07:14 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: CD announcement / spoken word
Sound & Language are proud to announce their first spoken word CD release:
'skin upon skin' by cris cheek (SLCD0300)
three pieces are featured ('Skin Upon sKin' + 'rooftop fog' w/ Sianed
Jones + 'stranger' w/ Sianed Jones) at a total playing time of over 70
minutes.
'cris cheek is capable of vocalisations that seamlessly weld plummy Olivien
Shakespeare to Hollywood demons, mournful blues to Madagascan laments, and
are able to pull through them texts that glimmer and shudder in social
fierceness, pathos and humour. Cheek's merging of cultural high ground and
political lowlife is unpredictable, its cunning velocity quivers on the
edge of mania.' (Brian Catling)
The production quality is extremely high. Price: Ten pounds sterling (inc)
Fifteen dollars (inc p& p)
cash payment (dollars or sterling) U.K cheques or international money
orders only - made payable directly to Sound & Language
thanks
Suzy Lacey (production assistant)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:54:29 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Subject: language poetry on treble
Hey Jordan:
My own take on one of the main legacies of the language poets (to
the extent, when and where, that they constitute a group, which they do
in specific ways and not in specific others) is the necessity for an intense
critique of all other poetry coming before and around you, etc. So
pointed critique is not simply what language poets deserve, both as a group
and as
individuals, but something their methods often literally demand. One of
my points in at least one of those essays is that what counts, I think,
is the difference
between critiques of language poetry that work and critiques that do not,
and my attempt at least partly was to involve both; that is, both to
critique those positions that seemed to me not to work, as well as to put
forward some critiques that seemed to me more workable. I'm not a fan of
language poetry, for instance in the way that one would be (should
be!--go birds!) a
fan of the Baltimore Orioles (but not a fan of the business of sports),
although there are times and places
that one should cheer on poetry even if it means Robert Frost (ever work
at a community college?).
Rather, as a poet and a writer on poetry I take myself to be ENGAGED with
the questions that poets from multiple traditions put forward--I cheer
and I rage, I love and I hate, and I try as much as possible to put
grounds for those attitudes (and their lack of ground) out on the table.
mark wallace
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| |
| mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun |
| to go to extremes" |
| GWU: |
| http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw |
| EPC: |
| http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace |
|____________________________________________________________________________|
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:02:07 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Carried away by something, I have no idea what, I posted the
one from column a query
Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes
But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that
how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e.
breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side,
beth
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:23:23 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Mag/Press listing
Comments: cc: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu>
If you are publishing a magazine or running a press and you do not
have a listing at the Electronic Poetry Center, consider filling out
the form that follows. We'd love to share our 13,000 transactions a
month with you! One of our goals is to get good writing to those who
seek it! -- Loss
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electronic Poetry Center
Mag/Press Listing
Listing Created/Revised:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title:
Editor(s):
Postal Address:
E-mail (if available):
Issn [if mag]:
Frequency:
Sub. Cost:
Ed. Stmt: [General statement - a few words or longer if you
wish. This sometimes helps, for example: new British
poets, e.g. - You may also write at greater length.]
- either -
Issue Info [mags]: Issue by issue descriptions
- or -
Publications [presses]: List of publications with descriptions (and
ISBNs if possible)
[If you have both a mag and a press please fill out one form for
each. Submit forms by e-mail with "EPC Mag/Press listing" in the
subject
line and send to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:32 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Mag/Press Listing
If you are publishing a magazine or running a press and you do not have a
listing at the Electronic Poetry Center, consider filling out the form that
follows. We'd love to share our 13,000 transactions a month with you! One of
our goals is to get good writing to those who seek it! -- Loss
------------------------- <--- cut here ---> --------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electronic Poetry Center
Mag/Press Listing
Listing Created/Revised:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title:
Editor(s):
Postal Address:
E-mail (if available):
Issn [if mag]:
Frequency:
Sub. Cost:
Ed. Stmt: [General statement - a few words or longer if you
wish. This sometimes helps, for example: new British
poets, e.g. - You may also write at greater length.]
- either -
Issue Info [mags]: Issue by issue descriptions
- or -
Publications [presses]: List of publications with descriptions (and ISBNs if
possible)
[If you have both a mag and a press please fill out one form for
each. Submit forms by e-mail with "EPC Mag/Press listing" in the subject
line and send to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Loss Glazier <lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu>
http://writing.upenn.edu/epc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:51:14 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
> >Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes,
Personally, I'd have to vote for the confidentially talking dildoes.
None of the dildoes in my museum-collection of Dildoes Throughout
History says a WORD. I'm a bit muffed, I mean miffed.
Rachel Loden
"O Tiger-lily," said Alice, addressing herself to one that was waving
gracefully about in the wind, "I wish you could talk!"
"We can talk," said the Tiger-lily: "when there's anybody worth talking
to."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:55:12 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Confidential to David Benedetti
Personally I would LOVE to see George Bowering spanked with a dildo, if
that is now what is being offered or promised. As an epistolery novel,
this thread has great potential. It's already a far more interesting
project than, say, Griffin and Sabine. And just think what this
technology will make possible in a few years--we'll take the "virtual"
right out of it!
Oggling,
Ron Silliman
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:14:34 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Confidentially...
Golly, Maria, if I'd known you were THAT type of girl, I wouldn't have left
so soon after your Stein lecture at New College.
'Course, if I'd known you were that type of girl, I wouldn't have been able
to CONCENTRATE on your Stein lecture.
**********************************
sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll
In seed-
sense
the sea stars you out, innermost, forever.
--Paul Celan
**********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:17:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tod Thilleman <tunguska@TRIBECA.IOS.COM>
Subject: Re: poets/painters collaborate in NYC
KEEP BREATHING/ KEEP SHOUTING
Artists and Writers Collaborating
September 18 thru 28, 1996
reception and poetry reading: Saturday, Sept. 21 5 - 7 pm
450 Broadway Gallery, 4th floor between Grand and Canal
info: karen Marston @ 718-369-3036
artists/writers
J.F. Ahlin/John Williams Winifred McNeill/John Woodruff
James Barr/ Anne Elliot Karen Marston/Inna Mattei
Meredtih Bergmann/Michael Bergmann Lisa Martin/Gail Feldt
Ardythe Ashley
Robert Bruce/Tod Thilleman Ellen Louise Smith/Duane McDiramid
Fred Caruso/Burt Kimmelman Kerry Stevens/David Cameron
Juri Kim/Gina Bonati Audrey Stone/Dina Ben-Lev
David Lantow/Todd Colby Paul Vilinsky/Jonathun Blunk
limited number catalogues available for out of towners intnersted: e-mail
backchannel me adfdress
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:55:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Lisa Robertson / treble kicker
No Lisa's not joining Pavement, not that I know of -- but does anybody have
her e-mail address or phone number?
__
Mark -- I'm all for pointed critique, being a wayward fan of the all, but
in my neighborhood everybody wants me to turn up the _bass_ -- then I do
and I can't hear the words -- gotta hear the words -- Jordan
PS Why is everything produced in the 80s accused of using the modes of
Reaganism? Why are those 80s producers of cultural goods regarded as
_collaborators_ and not as people exhibiting symptoms? Or am I just
rehashing cultural critique I haven't read.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:20:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: McCaffery e-address?
would steve mccaffery or another kind person please backchannel
me his e-address? pretty please with sugarplums? send to
samuels@virginia.edu
thanks much
lisa s.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:54:56 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidentially...
steve carl writes:
> Golly, Maria, if I'd known you were THAT type of girl, I wouldn't have left
> so soon after your Stein lecture at New College.
>
> 'Course, if I'd known you were that type of girl, I wouldn't have been able
> to CONCENTRATE on your Stein lecture.
>
> **********************************
> sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll
>
> In seed-
> sense
> the sea stars you out, innermost, forever.
>
> --Paul Celan
> **********************************
well now steve. i didn't know celan was THAT kind of a guy; if i'd known i
might have sought out john felstiner a little more aggressively during my
graduate school years. and to think, i spent a weekend with pierre and nicole
without even knowing.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:07:41 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
For this we would have to blame quayle
>But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that
>how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e.
>
>breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side,
>
>beth
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:57:43 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps
a vibrator. best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:12:29 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Again, the Internet Family Values Ass'n wishes to go on record as saying that it
neither condones nor performs battery, simple or aggravated by assault; it
administers with the exquisite expertise of its ministers, delicious punishment
that is explicitly begged for. This is our plain, simple, and unbeatable recipe
for American society, of which we are the foundation and the cornerstone.
bests always, md
In message <ACA25849BD@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps
> a vibrator. best
>
> Tony Green,
> e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: redux is a drug
and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:35:16 GM+5
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: VIDAVER <VIDAVER@SLAIS.UBC.CA>
Organization: SLAIS, UBC
Subject: Dildo & The Real
In reply to Daniel Bouchard's concern for a real dildo, I am happy
to inform the list that there is a small town, just north of
Blakeville and east of Spread Eagle, Newfoundland, named "Dildo".
In fact, there is a series of locations within that vicinity that are
unabashedly specified by the name, such as Dildo Pond, South Dildo,
and Dildo Island (which is an important archaelogical site containing
Beotuk and Maratime Archaic Indian remains).
Of interest in this connection is the curious absence of Dildo (or
"Dildo," that is, the word) in that poem in Robin Blaser's "Syntax"
sequence of _The Holy Forest_ entitled, "The Mystic East" where
we find, naturally, Heart's Content (just north of Dildo) and the
names of some of the other points along Trinity Bay.
As Bowering notes, the imaginary dildo is itself imaginary
vis-a-vis the ongoing collaboration because it did not exist until
Benedetti invented it. However, because of this remark we now
have "Bowering's Imaginary 'Imaginary Dildo,'" as an entity
which forms part of the reality of this world-disclosive
electronic mailing list. This may be an unpleasant multiplication
for subscribers who have certain expections about the functions and
structures of POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, but for someone
who is studying the form of electronic records and their disposition
to archives, it makes for exciting and complex study.
Aaron Vidaver
vidaver@slais.ubc.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:52:41 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
and i fought the dildo was extant
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:23:04 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Tom Field show opens in San Francisco
Kevin,
any information about the Tom Field show travelling? Well, I guess it IS a
SF thing, and I guess I'd better not get my hopes up. But I have always dug
that man, I mean paintings and things said. I met him only once, at some
kind of rehearsal of someone's masque, i think, in about 1962. He was
wearing a nice plain sweater with very visible stitches, and he was quiet
and assured. He was only the second Black Mountaineer I met.
Is there going to be a catalogue, with Robin's piece, and pictures? Available.?
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:24:26 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@PAUL.SPU.EDU>
Subject: Re: CD announcement / spoken word
In-Reply-To: <843051506.26198.0@slang.demon.co.uk>
> Sound & Language are proud to announce their first spoken word CD
> release:
Sounds great. But what is the Sound & Langauge address?
=bc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:33:43 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Confidentially...
> i spent a weekend with pierre and nicole
>without even knowing.--md
Yeah, Maria. They are like that. I once spent a weekend in a hot tub with
them and didnt notice.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:38:10 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
>For this we would have to blame quayle
Isnt that Quayl ?
>
>
>>But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that
>>how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e.
>>
>>breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side,
>>
>>beth
>>
>>
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:44:57 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
>Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps
>a vibrator. best
>
>Tony Green,
>e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
Now, I think that is just a little hasty. Well, it is a kind of fixation
for Brits, and as we know, New Zealanders are really south seas Brits. I
mean, come on: lots of objects employ batteries. Travel alarm clocks, for
instance. Laptops (oops). Well. . . well. . . uh, gameboys (oops). .
well...
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:54:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
> what do you wish would happen here
>
>Jordan
Same thing that happens in "East Coker".
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:54:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
One day last spring the famed poet George Stanley pickled his hair. Held
his head in brine for quite some time, and then had Wanda work on his
locks. Among the poets of Robson Street at least, George Stanley was the
first to have a
dill do .
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:46:54 +1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
At 07:38 PM 9/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>For this we would have to blame quayle
>
>
>Isnt that Quayl ?
Que?
>>
>>
>>>But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that
>>>how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e.
>>>
>>>breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side,
>>>
>>>beth
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>George Bowering.
> ,
>2499 West 37th Ave.,
>Vancouver, B.C.,
>Canada V6M 1P4
>
>fax: 1-604-266-9000
>e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:54:47 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In message <v01530505ae664b6403f0@[166.84.199.56]> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
> if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
> now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
>
> Jordan
life, love, unceasing efflorescence of creative ecstasy, smarttalk, silliness,
and social responsibility. lifelong friendships, inconceivable depth of soulful
conversation, ethereal heights of giddy triumph of the inane, and so forth.
bests always, md
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:05:57 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
does anyone have any etymological info on the word "dildo" either as a sex toy
or as the place-names mentioned below?--md ps it cd almost be a weaving word,
it's that silly sounding.
In message <1237F9509D2@slais.ubc.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes:
> In reply to Daniel Bouchard's concern for a real dildo, I am happy
> to inform the list that there is a small town, just north of
> Blakeville and east of Spread Eagle, Newfoundland, named "Dildo".
> In fact, there is a series of locations within that vicinity that are
> unabashedly specified by the name, such as Dildo Pond, South Dildo,
> and Dildo Island (which is an important archaelogical site containing
> Beotuk and Maratime Archaic Indian remains).
>
> Of interest in this connection is the curious absence of Dildo (or
> "Dildo," that is, the word) in that poem in Robin Blaser's "Syntax"
> sequence of _The Holy Forest_ entitled, "The Mystic East" where
> we find, naturally, Heart's Content (just north of Dildo) and the
> names of some of the other points along Trinity Bay.
>
> As Bowering notes, the imaginary dildo is itself imaginary
> vis-a-vis the ongoing collaboration because it did not exist until
> Benedetti invented it. However, because of this remark we now
> have "Bowering's Imaginary 'Imaginary Dildo,'" as an entity
> which forms part of the reality of this world-disclosive
> electronic mailing list. This may be an unpleasant multiplication
> for subscribers who have certain expections about the functions and
> structures of POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, but for someone
> who is studying the form of electronic records and their disposition
> to archives, it makes for exciting and complex study.
>
> Aaron Vidaver
> vidaver@slais.ubc.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:13:30 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
in searching for info on dildo etymology i came across the
http://www.oed.com/ site which although it is not open yet looks to be a
wonderful machine. FYI.
>does anyone have any etymological info on the word "dildo" either as a sex toy
>or as the place-names mentioned below?--md ps it cd almost be a weaving word,
>it's that silly sounding.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:21:52 +0900
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hugh Nicoll <hnicoll@FUNATSUKA.MIYAZAKI-MU.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
In-Reply-To: <v02130500ae6694b58ecf@[198.147.97.117]>
Re: OED on "dildo", from the CD-ROM version
dildo1. Also dildoe.
a. A word of obscure origin, used in the refrains of ballads.
Also, a name of the penis or phallus, or a figure thereof; spec. an
artificial penis used for female gratification; the lingam of Hindu
worship; formerly, also, a contemptuous or reviling appellation of a man or
lad; and app. applied to a cylindrical or <oq>sausage<cq> curl.
<Ntilde>1593 T. Nashe Choise of Valentines or the Merie Ballad of Nash his
Dildo (1899) 20 Curse Eunuke dilldo, senceless counterfet.
1598 Florio Worlde of Wordes 261/3 Pastinaca muranese, a dildoe of glasse.
Ibid. 278/2 Pinco, a prick, a pillicock, a pintle, a dildoe.
1610 B. Jonson Alch. v. iii, Here I find..The seeling fill<cq>d with
poesies of the candle: And Madame, with a Dildo, writ o<cq> the walls.
1611 Shakes. Wint. T. iv. iv. 195 He has the prettiest Loue-songs for
Maids..with such delicate burthens of Dildo<cq>s and Fadings.
<Edh>1627 Middleton Chaste Maid i. ii, What, has he got a singing in his
head now? Now<cq>s out of work he falls to making dildoes.
1638 Ford Fancies iv. i, This page a milk-livered dildoe.
1647 Parl. Ladies 12 The very sight of this Madam with a Dildoe..put the
House into a great silence.
<Ntilde>1650 Roxb. Ball. II. 455 She prov<cq>d herself a Duke<cq>s
daughter, and he but a Squire<cq>s son. Sing trang dildo lee.
1656 S. Holland Zara (1719) 41 That Gods may view, With a dildo-doe, What
we bake, and what we brew.
1659 Torriano, Bacillo..a simple gull, a shallow pate, also a dill-doe, or
pillie-cock.
1661 R. W. Conf. Charac. To Rdr. (1860) 7 O thou faint-hearted dildo.
1688 R. Holme Armoury ii. 463/2 A Campaign Wig hath Knots or Bobs (or a
Dildo on each side) with a curled Forehead.
1698 Fryer Acc. E. India 179 Under the Banyan Tree, an Altar with a Dildo
in the middle being erected, they offer Rice.
1785 Grose Dict. Vulgar T. s.v., Dildoes are made of wax, horn, leather,
and diverse other substances.
1886 Burton Arab. Nts. X. 239 Of the penis succedaneus,..which the Latins
called phallus and fascinum, the French godemich<eacu> and the Italians
passatempo and diletto (whence our <oq>dildo<cq>), every kind abounds.
1952 Auden Nones 11 The nude young male who lounges Against a rock
displaying his dildo.
1965 New Statesman 9 Apr. 570/2 Why does it matter so much to them whether
lesbians use a dildo or not?
b. Comb.
dildo-glass, a cylindrical glass; ? a test-tube.
<Ntilde>1625 Fletcher Nice Valour iii. i, Whoever lives to see me Dead,
gentlemen, shall find me all mummy, Good to fill galipots, and long
dildo-glasses.
dildo2.
[prob. the same word as prec., from its cylindrical form like a
<oq>dildo-glass<cq>.]
A tree or shrub of the genus Cereus (N.O. Cactace<ae>). Also dildo-tree,
dildo-bush, dildo pear tree.
1672 W. Hughes Amer. Physitian 43 The Tree was long since called by the
Spaniards, and by the Negroes that lived there, the Dildoe-Tree; and the
English retain the same name still.
1696 Phil. Trans. XIX. 296 The Dildoe-tree is the same with the Cereus or
Torch-Plant.
1697 W. Dampier Voy. I. 81 Barren Islands without any Tree, only some
Dildo-bushes growing on them.
Ibid. 101 The Dildoe-tree is a green prickly shrub, that grows about 10 or
12 foot high, without either Leaf or Fruit. It is as big as a mans Leg,
from the root to the top, and it is full of sharp prickles, growing in
thick rows.
1700 W. King Transactioneer 11 The Toddy-Tree, the Sower-Sop, the
Bonavists, and the Dildoe.
1756 P. Browne Nat. Hist. Jamaica (1789) 238 The larger erect Indian Fig,
or Dildo Pear Tree.
1926 Fawcett & Rendle Flora of Jamaica V. 279 C[ereus] peruvianus... Dildo.
Dry parts of Jamaica on southern side.
1956 J. Hearne Stranger at Gate xix. 156 It<cq>s like getting a dildo thorn
out of your foot.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:13:25 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: CD announcement / spoken word
Sorry to all about excluding the mailing address.
all mail to:
Sound & Language
85 London Road South
Lowestoft
Suffolk NR33 OAS
UK
thanks for the enquiries
love and biscuits
Suzy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:32:04 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 from <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said:
>and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
>if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
>now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest (I include myself as one of
the culprits). I'm all for humor & lightness (except when I'm against it).
Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics".
2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been
backchanneled.
3. More regional info & calendars from round de world (with region in
subject line).
4. More input from lurkers (both new & jaded old-timers).
5. Discussion on varieties of issues people have brought up, threads
never taken up. (Now what were they...)
- Henry Gould
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:20:49 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
In-Reply-To: <3240c6a51467007@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>
They are from Water Island off the French Riviera--"d'Ile d'Eau."
Gwyn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:41:25 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
An OED is a thing of beauty. Usually find a couple of the two volume
versions (the 20 vols entire plus the "supplement") They used to give
away as an inducement to join (Which?) Book Club. Also, the Shorter
OED is a marvel at one volume. You can keep either right next to
the keyboard, in front of your 3rd International Unabridged Webster's
(4th due out before the mill).
For etyms (of Brit Eng, ScotsIr, and AmerEng), the OED is necessary
and delicious.
Beth Simon
(formerly of the Dictionary of American Regional English (aka among
the DARE eds as the dict)
Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English
Indiana University - Purdue University
ach, i see i didn't finish my sentence above--you can usu fd thm at
used bk stores
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:03:09 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
actually, my preference is not for the OED. i adore etymological dictionaries,
and i find that the OED is too literary, too exclusively English (i mean, they
only give examples from words' appearances in their modern form in English
literary texts) and they, for example, didn't have the word "feminism" in there
as of the late 1980s except to mean "a feminine gesture, trait, etc". as in, he
exhibited a feminism when he flashed that limp wrist. however, this dildo info
is useful (the word doesnt apear in my etym dict.) thanks all for the feedback.
md
In message <009A8986.6CB8D7A8.17@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> An OED is a thing of beauty. Usually find a couple of the two volume
> versions (the 20 vols entire plus the "supplement") They used to give
> away as an inducement to join (Which?) Book Club. Also, the Shorter
> OED is a marvel at one volume. You can keep either right next to
> the keyboard, in front of your 3rd International Unabridged Webster's
> (4th due out before the mill).
> For etyms (of Brit Eng, ScotsIr, and AmerEng), the OED is necessary
> and delicious.
>
> Beth Simon
> (formerly of the Dictionary of American Regional English (aka among
> the DARE eds as the dict)
> Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English
> Indiana University - Purdue University
>
>
>
> ach, i see i didn't finish my sentence above--you can usu fd thm at
> used bk stores
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:37:34 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real
One of noticeable changes from the first Caught In The Web Of Words
gang to the folks who did the first Supplement, is that the latter
crew read lots and lots and lots of murder mysteries, so sources for
use are interesting. Perry Mason, take a bow.
I haven't taken a look at the Middle English Dictionary. How's that for
etyms?
beth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:03:16 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Giscombe/Fugitive
This is Dodie.
=46or my Creative Writing 1 class I assignmed C.S. Giscombe's essay on the T=
V
series The Fugitive, which is in the Leave Books anthology, _The Poetics of
Criticism_. I really like this essay, think it's kind of fun, find
Giscombe's revisioning of the fugitive as black so intereting, enjoy his
jibes at the white academy, am impressed by the deftness of the slippages
in his language. So =8A we get in class yesterday afternoon, and I say
something bland like, "What did you think of this essay?" And I got this
torrent of complaints: I hated it, this guy can't write, this is reverse
racism, this really pissed me off, just because he thinks something it
doesn't mean it's true, how dare he say the fugitive isn't black enough,
it's ridiculous to say that white people can't teach black writers as well
as black people, what does he know about Tracy Chapman's singing! One girl
latched onto Giscombe's discussion of Ellison's _Invisible Man_, said,
"Have you read that book?" Before I could answer, she added, "I hated it!
All that guy did was complain." The bulk of this response came from three
(of eleven) students, the ring-leader being the Invisible Man-hater.
I tried working with their feelings--yes, Giscombe is using some
confrontational language in his piece but =8A But nothing I could do could
quite turn the situation around from my trying to defend the essay into
looking at what the essay had to offer. Particularly because some of the
"pissed off" students had totally misread the essay (for instance Giscombe
never says the fugitive isn't black enough--he says quite the opposite) and
in their rage were irrational. Unfortunately, there are no black people in
the class. To me many of the students' responses reeked of racism--to call
a black man's reinterpretation of cultural icons of the 60s reverse
racism!!???
=46rankly I'm stunned, don't quite know what to do about this. When we read
_Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a seatbelt--that book
really is incendiary, wiggers being white suburban kids who want to be
black. Braithwaite is black, gay, and Canadian--I'm afraid he's going to
be like a Martian to my students. Call in the Marines, blast this alien to
smithereens! Speaking of Martians, we are going to be reading Spicer's
letters to Lorca.
Have any of you dealt with this kind of thing?
Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:11:28 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ian Wilson <iwilson@MGMUA.COM>
Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive
>When we read _Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a
>seatbelt
Dodie,
Is _Wigger_ a novel? Or what form then?
Any chance of turning the discussion away from the perceived content
and onto the craft -- if "teaching" creative writing is what you're
doing in the workshop? Lately, the fiction workshops I've been in
have been barring judgmental comments ("I didn't like the main
character") and forcing the respondents to make pure observations such
as "All the dialogue is expositional," "Only the main character is
round all the rest are flat characters," "The level of discourse is
primarily indirect throughout." The first time I saw this in action,
it was amazing how much lower the high horses got. All criticism with
even a tinge of the ad hominem disappeared. It makes the writer's job
more difficult because he or she has to figure out the significance of
these remarks. The professor, privately, will discuss their
significance for revision purposes.
But if you're going to allow content-laden reader-response to the
pieces, can you demand textual backup of each respondent's opinion?
You said in your post that people misread, can you make them go back
into the piece and prove their positions? The New Criticism is still
worth something as a pedagogy, I think.
Or maybe my suggestions are beyond the scope of a Creative Writing I
class, I don't know.
Ian Wilson
Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles
iwilson@mgmua.com
http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/story/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:25:30 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Christopher J. Beach" <cjbeach@BENFRANKLIN.HNET.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96091907504692@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
I would second Henry Gould's suggestions, and I have made some of the
same suggestions about the list before. As a jaded old-timer and (mostly)
lurker on the list, I would probably be more inclined to *actively*
participate if
we could cut down a bit on the "silly chatter" and "personal business and
replies" and do more substantive discussions like those on poetic form,
poets vs. critics, poetry and institutions, future(s) of LangPo, poetry
and class,
relationships between different poetic communities, musical settings of
poetry, etc.
Some of these threads have been really interesting. Also I love to hear
about conferences (especially those I am unable to attend), new presses,
mags, books, etc. And what ever happened to the thread about "what new
books I've been reading lately"? I always learn a lot from hearing what
everyone's been reading and enjoying, and it is encouraging in this day
in age to know that people are still reading.
Chris B
On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, henry wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said:
> >and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
> >if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
> >now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
>
> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest (I include myself as one of
> the culprits). I'm all for humor & lightness (except when I'm against it).
> Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics".
>
> 2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been
> backchanneled.
>
> 3. More regional info & calendars from round de world (with region in
> subject line).
>
> 4. More input from lurkers (both new & jaded old-timers).
>
> 5. Discussion on varieties of issues people have brought up, threads
> never taken up. (Now what were they...)
> - Henry Gould
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:00:30 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: the martians we always have with us
Ian --
This is probably a pointless poetically-correct quibble, but would you
really call any category of response 'pure'? Sure you want to privilege one
kind of reading -- that's one of the perqs of teaching, right? You get to
call that shot -- but do you want to put everything on the axis of purity /
mixture? It seems loaded, especially when you're trying to deal with
hostile racialist readings. 'Objective' doesn't seem much better. If it
weren't such a joke, historically, I'd suggest the word 'neutral'.
'Balanced'? 'Unbalanced'? 'Cool'? 'Appropriate'? It's funny, but there may
not be a valid common vocabulary for the range of desired response -- which
probably has something to do with the end, for educators, of the post-war
old-school assessment jargon, and the clumsy shoring (almost wrote 'klupzy
girling') together of new ways of talking about what to encourage in
students. I say give 'em the martians that are always here, Dodie.
One who loves all shores,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:23:37 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive
Hi Dodie: welcome to the fun, privileged, protected world of teaching. it's a
dreamjob, huhn. i totally and completely sympathize. i've had a lot of this
kind of stuff, including people complaining that WEB DuBois is "writing over his
head" --(read: I, a white boy from suburban minnesota, feel threatened by a
Black Harvard PhD whose prose is poetic and complex); that they have been
oppressed too, and the prime example is that when Native Americans exercise
their fishing treaty rights, it cuts down on the population of fish available to
sports fishermen (i.e. themselves, their dads and uncles--believe it or not,
this is one of the hottest political issues in the upper midwest); yes, the term
"reverse racism" is widely used. Myself and female friends who teach "minority"
and "postcolonial" literatures routinely get evaluations that say stuff like "it
is offensive to be forced to read about issues such as poverty and racism..."
"there were too many books by minorities in this class"(if its not a class
actually entitled "minority lit"); "how can you expect me to read this book [by
a Lesbian] since I am not a lesbian" etc etc. It's a real eye opener to those
of us who think we're past the age of "identity politics," crude socialist
advocacy for the traditionally oppressed, etc. etc.--and who, in some contexts,
do argue against a simplistic multiculti-ism. I have actually declined to teach
"Literature of American Minorities" for a number of years now for the very
reason that i find it utterly demoralizing; also, its an intro lecture class, so
there're literally over a hundred (white) students glaring at me and sometimes
leaving the classroom, slamming doors behind them. It is also common for the
women teaching these classes to have anonymous letters sent to the dept chair
complaining about their unfairness, incompetence, etc etc.
In message <v01540b00ae66b64a97c5@[205.134.228.42]> UB Poetics discussion group
writes:
> This is Dodie.
>
> =46or my Creative Writing 1 class I assignmed C.S. Giscombe's essay on the T=
> V
> series The Fugitive, which is in the Leave Books anthology, _The Poetics of
> Criticism_. I really like this essay, think it's kind of fun, find
> Giscombe's revisioning of the fugitive as black so intereting, enjoy his
> jibes at the white academy, am impressed by the deftness of the slippages
> in his language. So =8A we get in class yesterday afternoon, and I say
> something bland like, "What did you think of this essay?" And I got this
> torrent of complaints: I hated it, this guy can't write, this is reverse
> racism, this really pissed me off, just because he thinks something it
> doesn't mean it's true, how dare he say the fugitive isn't black enough,
> it's ridiculous to say that white people can't teach black writers as well
> as black people, what does he know about Tracy Chapman's singing! One girl
> latched onto Giscombe's discussion of Ellison's _Invisible Man_, said,
> "Have you read that book?" Before I could answer, she added, "I hated it!
> All that guy did was complain." The bulk of this response came from three
> (of eleven) students, the ring-leader being the Invisible Man-hater.
>
> I tried working with their feelings--yes, Giscombe is using some
> confrontational language in his piece but =8A But nothing I could do could
> quite turn the situation around from my trying to defend the essay into
> looking at what the essay had to offer. Particularly because some of the
> "pissed off" students had totally misread the essay (for instance Giscombe
> never says the fugitive isn't black enough--he says quite the opposite) and
> in their rage were irrational. Unfortunately, there are no black people in
> the class. To me many of the students' responses reeked of racism--to call
> a black man's reinterpretation of cultural icons of the 60s reverse
> racism!!???
>
> =46rankly I'm stunned, don't quite know what to do about this. When we read
> _Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a seatbelt--that book
> really is incendiary, wiggers being white suburban kids who want to be
> black. Braithwaite is black, gay, and Canadian--I'm afraid he's going to
> be like a Martian to my students. Call in the Marines, blast this alien to
> smithereens! Speaking of Martians, we are going to be reading Spicer's
> letters to Lorca.
>
> Have any of you dealt with this kind of thing?
>
> Dodie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:46:44 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Ian Wilson <iwilson@MGMUA.COM>
Subject: Re: the martians we always have with us
Jordan,
In the pc arena, I can't argue with you on the use of the word "pure."
It's a completely loaded word. And I also think that you can't
completely separate out the political and talk only about the
structural without that decision also being a political one.
All that said, writing workshops have been termed the last bastion of
New Criticism, and they are when the focus is on craft. So when I say
can the discussion be turned to pure observation, any of your other
terms will work: neutral observation, non-judgemental observation,
observation that focuses solely on the written artifact as a form.
Given the heat of the discussion in Dodie's class, it might make for
an interesting assignment for the class to respond with an essay to
the Fugitive piece.
Ian Wilson
Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles
iwilson@mgmua.com
http://www.iglou.com/irwilson/index.shtml
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: the martians we always have with us
Author: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> at Internet
Date: 9/19/96 2:00 PM
Ian --
This is probably a pointless poetically-correct quibble, but would you
really call any category of response 'pure'? Sure you want to privilege one
kind of reading -- that's one of the perqs of teaching, right? You get to
call that shot -- but do you want to put everything on the axis of purity /
mixture? It seems loaded, especially when you're trying to deal with hostile
racialist readings. 'Objective' doesn't seem much better. If it weren't such
a joke, historically, I'd suggest the word 'neutral'. 'Balanced'?
'Unbalanced'? 'Cool'? 'Appropriate'? It's funny, but there may not be a
valid common vocabulary for the range of desired response -- which probably
has something to do with the end, for educators, of the post-war old-school
assessment jargon, and the clumsy shoring (almost wrote 'klupzy girling')
together of new ways of talking about what to encourage in students. I say
give 'em the martians that are always here, Dodie.
One who loves all shores,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:29:32 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive
Dodie, Maria, et al:
The students you are describing are having a natural reaction to your class.
Not natural in the sense that they are correct in their reactions, but natural
in that what they (probably most) are exposed to up to the point of your class
result predictably in those reactions.
In other words, they haven't been prepared for the idea that there may be ideas
(in the world, in the classroom) that will shake the foundations of ideas that
they have come to think of as their own. When presented with radical ideas,
they (naturally?) regard it as an attack on their beings. They are 18-22?
Obviously, they know everything and the instructor in the room is there to pass
the time with (with some book chat).
I think that regardless of all the history, issues of race, gender, class, etc.
will continue to be radical ideas to many many people. And people find radical
ideas threatening. That's why they're radical.
I haven't really offered anything in terms of how to deal with this, but want
to say that I've been there and have found it just as upsetting.
What kind of frame or context are these classes presented to the students?
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
Aside, and somewhat relevant: reading about a poll taking in USA about 20 yrs
ago. Question: where does this phrase come from "From each according to their
ability, to each according to their need?" Most common answer: the
Constitution.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:40:51 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive
god yes. i have dealt with this kind of thing. it is the despair of my life.
i've begun to call it the "righteousness without a cause" syndrome. people
i have this theory: think about when literature, or let us say, to try and
harness in (though one can never harness them in) the hole-pokers, written
formed narratives began. almost no one could read. thus, almost no one
could write. thus, there were very FEW written formed narratives. if you
adopted the interpretation/cultural placement/knowledge of these narratives
as your profession, you were sitting in the catbird seat.
fast forward. invention of the printing press. things get a little tougher
but not much. fast forward. monks/church schools are teaching more and more
people to read, hence more and more people write. the ones who make mastering
texts their business are now not so clearly in the catbird seat. ruffians
from the bleachers are beginning to sit in their section, beginning to displace
them in the seat when they get up to go to the bathroom...
fast forward. now. in u.s. and europe, almost everyone can read (i'll take
just these areas because they are what i know). now, because so many people
can read.... many many people write. now, there is not only a massive, and
GROWING backlog of all sorts of Great Literature for the Masters of the
Literature Universe to somehow read, interpret, and master, there is MORE
of the stuff piling in everyday.
so what happens? what has been happening all along, in one way or another,
to "control," assert "mastery" over these unruly texts... a criticism of
dismissal...
i.e. (actual paraphrased quote) "oh the confessionals, they all write about
suicide and drugs. freudian melodramas..." using this example. well, there
you have it. you never have to read sexton, lowell, snodgrass, plath, etc.
becuase now we all know they just write about suicide and drugs and freudian
melodramas. BAP. a whole pile dismissed.
students pick up the gestalt of criticism of dismissal, and practice it perhaps
less gracefully, not in the least becuase a really GOOD criticism of
dismissal depends on a sort of haute culture elan, a kind of personal power
and unapproachability that makes one able to scare would-be includers off.
i say this, fully aware of my own immersion in criticism of dismissal,
distrusting it when i don't like a "sort" of poetry... and hearing, god
forbid this nightmare, students saying things that sound like me...
"oh X poetry, it is just about YZ"... i have been having a running debate with
a friend on poetries she is enjoying at present. i thought, from samples she
had sent me, that i had them pegged. then she sent some jack spicer poems
which i found entrancing, and i have had the designer-outfit-wearing Critics
Of Dismissal Ghosts shaking their chains in my doorstep ever since...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:50:56 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: BAP critics
BAP. a whole pile dismissed.
But Eliza, critics are _supposed_ to do that, aren't they? If you take away
a critic's privilege of _focus_, then you make the job of general criticism
informational and no longer federal, no longer regulatory. That sounds
nice, but who then will take a job the products of which everyone ignores
(except the few members of the audience who remain ignored), if the power
of which, what little there may be, is taken away?
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:10:27 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: BAP critics
ayup (a maine noise equivalent to the sound of a burp and a fish line
dropping in the water)... tis a tough job but someone has to do it.
honestly, we bitch when criticism seems overly regulatory, but we bitch
when crummy texts are paraded by lazy writers as Great Writing even though
we know they were scrawled on a cocktail napkin the evening before in bad
pentameter with june-moon rhymes. or less obvious targets. and then we
yearn, even if we don't dare voice it, for the Tough Scary Critics to
ride in on their dismissals...
i never said i had an answer. if i did, i'd exorcise the Ghosts of Texts
Dismissed, as well as the Ghosts of Critics of Dismissal... maybe a little
worcestershire sauce on my threshold...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:19:04 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive BAP
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>god yes. i have dealt with this kind of thing. it is the despair of my life.
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>i've begun to call it the "righteousness without a cause" syndrome. people
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>i have this theory: think about when literature, or let us say, to try and
>harness in (though one can never harness them in) the hole-pokers, written
>formed narratives began. almost no one could read. thus, almost no one
>could write. thus, there were very FEW written formed narratives. if you
>adopted the interpretation/cultural placement/knowledge of these narratives
>as your profession, you were sitting in the catbird seat.
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>fast forward. invention of the printing press. things get a little tougher
>but not much. fast forward. monks/church schools are teaching more and more
>people to read, hence more and more people write. the ones who make mastering
>texts their business are now not so clearly in the catbird seat. ruffians
>from the bleachers are beginning to sit in their section, beginning to displace
>them in the seat when they get up to go to the bathroom...
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>fast forward. now. in u.s. and europe, almost everyone can read (i'll take
>just these areas because they are what i know). now, because so many people
>can read.... many many people write. now, there is not only a massive, and
>GROWING backlog of all sorts of Great Literature for the Masters of the
>Literature Universe to somehow read, interpret, and master, there is MORE
>of the stuff piling in everyday.
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>so what happens? what has been happening all along, in one way or another,
>to "control," assert "mastery" over these unruly texts... a criticism of
>dismissal...
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>i.e. (actual paraphrased quote) "oh the confessionals, they all write about
>suicide and drugs. freudian melodramas..." using this example. well, there
>you have it. you never have to read sexton, lowell, snodgrass, plath, etc.
>becuase now we all know they just write about suicide and drugs and freudian
>melodramas. BAP. a whole pile dismissed.
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>students pick up the gestalt of criticism of dismissal, and practice it perhaps
>less gracefully, not in the least becuase a really GOOD criticism of
>dismissal depends on a sort of haute culture elan, a kind of personal power
>and unapproachability that makes one able to scare would-be includers off.
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>i say this, fully aware of my own immersion in criticism of dismissal,
>distrusting it when i don't like a "sort" of poetry... and hearing, god
>forbid this nightmare, students saying things that sound like me...
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>
>"oh X poetry, it is just about YZ"... i have been having a running debate with
>a friend on poetries she is enjoying at present. i thought, from samples she
>had sent me, that i had them pegged. then she sent some jack spicer poems
>which i found entrancing, and i have had the designer-outfit-wearing Critics
>Of Dismissal Ghosts shaking their chains in my doorstep ever since...
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
>e
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
"Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's
completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:24:39 GMT+1200
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ>
Organization: The University of Auckland
Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis
Put the apparent haste down to sheer South seas excitement. Best
Tony Green,
e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:58:55 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
>On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said:
>>and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
>>if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
>>now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
>2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been
>backchanneled.
And a more sure command of vocabulary. No use of "less" where "fewer" is
indicated, for instance.
>
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:51:14 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
more personal chat. i want to know everyone's bra size. more humor. less
nervous seriousness. winning lotto numbers (before they are picked). more
poems. reading announcements. book announcements. tenure-gaining
announcements. theoretical posits. theoretical refutations. refutations
of theory. posits of theory. post-structuralist positions. post
modernist positions. pre modern positions. prestructural renovations
in position. queries about quotes. thrills chills and everyone's bra size.
what people are reading. why. why not. why no one reads miles kundera
(i hear it's cause all he talks about is sex... you'd think that would go
over big). political alerts. poetical alerts. obits. birth announcements.
celebrations. job openings. The Stuff Of Life.
e
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:50:17 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: bitmap <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Nexis Lexis
This might be of interest, it concerns "a service from Nexis Lexis called
P-Trax.
In this email it was said that this (PAY ONLY) database was being
made available by Lexis and in it was all
kinds of personal and private information about .. well just about
EVERYBODY! .. the email went on to say
that the data included our name ('s) that might include your maiden
name or aliases you may have used, your
current address and maybe your previous address, your social
security number, your mother's maiden
name, your birth date and other personal information.
Well this sure put the 'fear of the net' in me in a big big hurry! =-)
BUT... I called the (very stressed and phone abused) folks at Lexis
and I found out the real deal...
It seems the kind of data thats held within that database includes
the following:
Your Name and maybe other names you may have gone by.
Your Current Address and maybe a previous address.
Your Phone Number
Update: Some net.seaching did turn up this very interesting story
that was done by our good friends at
c|net Central... You can read it in full text at their new web site
http://www.news.com/ a fast link direct to
the story is http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,1539,00.html. Anyway
in that story I found out that
Lexis does (or did) indeed have our Social Security Numbers and they
were AT ONE TIME indeed in the
P-TRAK database but thanks to some complaints that came in.. it
seems that a few members of congress
(after the c|net story was published) may have been concerned as
well and the information was indeed
removed.
Now I still think thats more information than I want strangers to
know about me... Especially without me
knowing about it first. Heck, its nobodys business where my previous
residence was even if I did live on
Mars before calling this nice planet my home =-) and does anyone
else really need to know that at one time I
went by the assumed name 'Derrenger Dave From Deluth' I don't think
so... =-)
Okay.. all kidding aside, personal privacy is very important to us
all (or should be) and if you think your
name might be contained in this database you really should consider
if you want it to remain there.
Yes Virgina you can indeed get it removed. How you ask... well thats
were Lexis-Nexis makes it kinda
tricky... Lexis will not take you name off the database unless you
send them your Name and Address
via fax or snailmail - they refuse to do it via phone, email or web.
I have to tell you this does indeed make me a little mad so instead
of being nice and putting their fax number
in this little story I have chosen to instead post their 1-800
number from that number a recording tells users
the address and fax number... the way I look at it, 'let them pay
for the call'
Oh, I also have another bone to pick with them... When I called them
I simply wanted to find out if my
name was indeed in their database and exactly what personal
information they did have up for sale on me,
because I figure if it isn't in their database already then why on
earth should I fax them the info! Well, do
you know what I was told??? The charge for the search would be
$85.00. If thats not nerve... Doesn't the
United States Federal Govenment have some kinda laws covering this
kinda thing?? Damn!! CHARGING
ME just to see if they are making money by USING MY NAME... So once
again... LET THEM PAY FOR
THE CALL! (800) 543-6862
I for one WILL have my name removed from that list... and remember
please pass this story around but
PLEASE make sure you are not spreading mis-information (remember
this DB does NOT have SSN, DOB,
Mothers Name and some 'reports' I've seen even eluded to the fact
they they also had credit info on you...
this stuff is not true... if it were imagine how mad I would have
been =-)"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
henry wrote:
> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest
Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of
dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of
poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly.
> Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics".
Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking
for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear
a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the
narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's
a source of puzzlement.
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <324285FD.6D2A@concentric.net>
Rachel, I thought h's post *was* satire. Is there (obligatory crit jargon
alert!) room for an alternative reading of the text in question?
Gwyn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:22:56 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 from
<rloden@concentric.net>
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 Rachel Loden said:
>henry wrote:
>
>> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest
>
>Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of
>dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of
>poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly.
Was I referring to some thread you were involved in, Rachel? I don't
think I mentioned any particular thread. Nor did I claim that the
poets & critics thread was "fascinating". Who's assuming what
about who? Did I say satire was silly? I remember I did say that
I considered myself "one of the culprits." - & I mean, engaging
in silly chatter! (much of it about poets & critics)
>
>> Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics".
>
>Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking
>for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear
>a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the
>narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's
>a source of puzzlement.
I agree with that. Jordan asked what we would like to see on the list.
I gave my opinion - which is: I miss some of the intense complicated
discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth
of in the last few months (maybe it's summer, maybe it's too much chatter -
mine included). The best thing in these list police discussions (which
are mostly self-defeating) is to just START a discussion, as many have
already pointed out. Meanwhile, I'll keep searching for a new
opportunity to be baffled. - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:49:14 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400 from
<gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400 Gwyn McVay said:
>Rachel, I thought h's post *was* satire. Is there (obligatory crit jargon
>alert!) room for an alternative reading of the text in question?
>
Gwyn, let me make myself perfectly less fewer clear:
I was deadly.... serious, SERIOUS. As alwayszzzzzz.......(huffle huffle
snort snort).......zzzzzz - What's his name. Choreman of the Bored
BORED ANNOUNCEMENT
A new poetics sub-group spinoff has been formed. We're calling ourselves
the "cool poetics nerds". To join, well, it's kind of a clique, some of
us just felt we weren't satisfied, you know, it's like an in-group
thing. Calling ourselves the Z-team, ******* started it a few weeks
ago, we're all still part of the poetics list anyway. But if you're
alabaster, neuter, over 45, and VERY interested in serious literary
controversies, you might want to email *******. Send along a curriculum
mortae. - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:26:18 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Sherry Brennan <sab5@PSU.EDU>
Subject: space
>n Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said:
>>and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv
>>if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again
>>now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here
>
I just wnat to know that there are other spaces out there, other than this
cubicle where I spend my days with my comjputer. I'm not into regulating
hwat those other spaces are. Just want to space spacing spaces . xs
Sherry Brennan
Development Research
The Pennsylvania State University
(814) 863-4302
SAB5@psu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:07:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
rachel rites:
> henry wrote:
>
> > 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest
>
> Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of
> dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of
> poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly.
>
> > Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics".
>
> Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking
> for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear
> a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the
> narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's
> a source of puzzlement.
>
> Rachel Loden
i rite:
for the record; i was telling a colleague/friend about the silliness of our list
of late, with the benedetti v. loden/bowering thread and how it blossomed. she
was in stitches and wished she had an e-community that was half as fun.--md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
the gould rites:
I miss some of the intense complicated
discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth
of in the last few months
i don't recall much of this at all; are you referring to, for instance, the
plath/sexton/ holocaust type stuff? or stuff about meter? this is an honest
question: what constitutes a serious discussion of poetics? what in fact is
meant by poetics? i ask this because i had real departmental problems with this
one in the past, being in a situation where i thought "poetics" meant something
like "the functioning of (talking about) verbal artifacts in a social space" and
my powerful senior colleagues thought it meant "prosody." so, on this list, i
don't know when i'm being "digressive" and when i'm actually tending to
business. and to tell the truth i kind of like not knowing. i think that's the
way new knowledge gets generated, when there's advertent or inadvertent slippage
between discourses. bests always md
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:54:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: teaching traumas...
there isn't a day goes by, it seems, when i'm not faced with resistance
from my students to moving discussions in any direction which suitably
challenges more orthodox constructions of self or society... in considering
just about anything written by foucault, or any poem that is non-narrative,
or any social opine that goes against-the-perceived-orthodox-grain, i'm
often met immediately, by a certain faction (which latter varies), with
resistance if not outright resentment...
my strategy has been to try to create a classroom setting from the outset
in which students feel they can give voice to their more self-ish or racist
or sexist or ? sentiments... i like to talk in class about the way i come
to teaching and learning, about how i see my own profession, and i like to
get my students to talk about what they think they're going to get out of
an education, how they see themselves as students... this latter discussion
is not the sole topic of discussion, but it is a recurring topic in each
and every one of my classes... one way of getting students to pipe up
(which may or may not work, depending on the context---there are no
guarantees) is to give voice at times to one's own anxieties, and to get
into the habit of questioning, listening, and encouraging students to do as
well... i'm not talking about teaching-as-confessional (though i suppose
there is an element of this, and of related risk)---i *am* talking about
redistributing pedagogical authority so as to decenter the instructional
role through openness and willingness to make public one's own methods and
frailties, while at the same time raising urgent questions... which may
include, in fact, whether a more 'democratic' classroom is desirable...
mebbe b/c i'm a white guy i can get away with this more easily, it's
true... for example, a woman, viewed in more maternal terms by students,
may likewise be viewed as "betraying" her self-defined student-offspring
through a denial of authority... i say this only in order to complicate my
own pedagogy...
i'm not suggesting that instructors should avoid confrontation... i *am*
saying---and in my case i teach, these days, a lower-middle-class,
technically-oriented student body, with a fair amount of international
students (who are not lower-middle-class), and mebbe 20% women---that
confrontation of any sort is not going to be all that meaningful unless
students (and faculty) are willing to articulate where they're coming from,
and why... and that it takes some amount of work to create a classroom in
which there's enough trust and commitment to entertain such provocations
publicly...
mebbe you can get 'into' a 'controversial' text if you can create such a
classroom... mebbe such texts can help in that process simply b/c they
foreground known anxieties or concerns of one sort or another... mebbe you
can get students to see a text as something of (aesthetic, cultural) value
(imagine that), as something that speaks to xyz issues in perhaps
unsettling ways... but this latter process simply has, as i see it, to take
place within a legible pedagogical-educational framework... if you don't
discuss the how's and why's of educational motives with your students,
you're setting yourself up in their eyes as a demagogue... esp. when you
introduce into a classroom a text that is (demographically speaking, now)
likely to be viewed as challenging their beliefs...
for what it's worth, please pardon my use of second person, i'm talking to
myself too//
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:10:02 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: student racism
Dodie a day or two ago -- it takes me a while to get my messages, slow system
-- wrote about her students' seemingly racist response to a Giscombe essay she
had them read.
Alas, I am not at all surprised. I get this sort of thing all the time. The
prep school students I teach -- at least the white ones -- almost all claim
not to be racists. And they're right to the extent that they hold no ill
feelings toward blacks or other minorities. But they are wrong insofar as
racism is institutional: Any time discussion of race turns away from
"subjective feeling" and to actual instances of and structures that promote
white privelege and minority disenfranchisement, things get ugly. Most whites
react irrationally and angrily. The strangest such instance is when some white
students claims to be as "victimized" as minorities. (My God, what a sad state
of affairs.) The declaration of being a victim has become a rhetorical ploy to
establish authority ("You have to listen to me; I've been unjustly hurt.")
and these kids do not want it denied them.
Once you scratch beneath the surface, the ugliness is extraordinary.
& it's not just race; it's class as well. In the prep school I taught in in NY
state, some students uncritically referred to lower class whites as "white
trash." I said, "let's find a better word." A student replied, "Oh, they're
not white trash?" I said, "These people would fall under the category `poor
white trash.' But I don't believe we should refer to any human beings as
trash, especially not in a classroom." "Wow, I never thought of that." These
kids are receiving superb educations.
The schools I teach at are full of economically elite students steeped in
"multi-cultural" (I hate that word -- too simlistic)social studies and English
classes. Does the elitism overrde the multi-cultural indoctrination? Or are
these students actually more sensitive to issues of "otherness" than are many
less fortunate whites?
It all makes me shudder. I wish that I, like Dodie, could be surprised.
In NY state I taught some kids ripe for the neo-Nazis. (No, all of the
neo-Nazis are not poorly educated, disenfranchised white men. These boys had
the world at their feet.) When I began my introduction of Woolf's TO THE
LIGHTHOUSE, one of the students asked, "Is she black, too?" He had become
sick of reading black authors after a unit on African poetry. The coming
generation may be the most racist since before the Civil Rights era.
I guess we educators have our work cut out for us. Do we make a difference?
What do you non-educators think?
Jeff
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:16:10 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gary Roberts <GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Subject: poetry and play
I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for
recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side
of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other
suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics
are welcome.
Thanks,
Gary Roberts
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:51:08 -0600
Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company
Subject: status of my 'zine - Happy Genius
please pardon the non-poetic, business nature of this post. a few poets
on this list have work going in my up-coming 'zine, Happy Genius.
Happy Genius is suffering from money problems. this is out-of-pocket.
if it is going too slowly for anyone, just write me. i understand.
the low-down: Happy Genius is 1. core text only. i like a little crit
but there are many 'zines out there for that. 2. Black Mountain and
langpo influenced. my taste. 3. paper and web. many people really do
judge a book, or 'zine, by the quality of the print job. for some,
web-only is not *real*! wouldn't that be a turbulent thread!
i hit up some poets whose work i've liked a long time, and, from this
list, i received a lot of work that is just about exactly what i wanted
to get. unfortunately, i also got work from women on a one to seven
ratio! (another thread that would be interesting to pursue.) i then
tried to make a concerted effort to attract women; trolling, as it is
called on irc. a stupid error happened that is embarassing but should
be funny. i wrote a particularly intelligent woman on this list (based
on the content of her posts) begging work from her. she isn't a poet.
she's a critic. i bet most of you know exactly who i mean! the result
of that troll was null. there is still a seven to one ratio of men to
women.
there is still room for submissions to Happy Genius. in order to use the
perfect binding method, at least 96 pages are necessary. i have almost
that much now, and could put in one or two of my own longer poems (which
are brilliant!), but i would prefer more work.
long poems, word play, mental activity, that's what i like.
please note that my email address has changed to:
landers@frontiernet.net
and my snail mail address has changed to:
Happy Genius
Pete Landers, ed.
34 Rose Circle
Hamlin, NY 14464
in other words, if you snail me and don't think "Gertrude", it could be
the wrong address. is that obscure? sorry. Stein made the circle of
"a rose is a rose is a rose is". rose circle.
again, if Happy Genius is going too slowly and i'm holding your poem,
get in touch. i'm not Clayton-like*. i'll send my phone # back channel
if you want to talk.
Pete Landers
landers@frontiernet.net
* bashing Clayton is fun, but i'm sorry to hear Sulphur is in a bad way
with money. with or without the controversies, he and Eliot put some
good work out there and they have excellent distribution. maybe it's
time he pull a Heyerdahl on those cave painting technix.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:04:13 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500 from
<damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500 maria damon said:
>the gould rites:
>I miss some of the intense complicated
>discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth
>of in the last few months
>
>i don't recall much of this at all; are you referring to, for instance, the
>plath/sexton/ holocaust type stuff? or stuff about meter? this is an honest
>question: what constitutes a serious discussion of poetics? what in fact is
>meant by poetics?
By "poetics per se" I mean "the gab about poetry".
But methinks perhaps the Muse hath departed.
O woe then I cry, cry I then woe O,
For lo, the blab doth feed upon itself
And all o'erwhelm propinquity and jest!
Yea, unto the legions forthright fortified
With regulation, what ho! Dagnab it all!
Whew!
[from: PROSODY IS ONLY AN ITTY-BITTY PART OF POETICS, by E. Randolph
Squirtgunnington; E. Lemon Press, 1946]
[Note: Squirtetc. cites the above as an example of latent extenuated
devolved anglo-saxon verse prosody, remarking: "note the labial
sibilance in the third beat from the top layer (proto-Ugarit sandstone).
How moving - and yet, how pathetic." (p.1745)]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:20:04 CST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US>
Organization: The Blake School
Subject: None
Maria Damon mentioned in passing that a hot upper midwest political issue
concerns the treaty rights of native Americans to fish in certain waters at
times when they are off-limit to other groups. She goes on to say that many
whites oppose it because it cuts down on the fish they will catch. This is
true in part, but the issue is much more complex.
Certain small resort owners suffer real economic trouble because of these
treaties (which should be enforced -- I'm not arguing against Native
American's rights.) And many of these people are not rich: they make a hell
of a lot less than a tenured professor or, in my case, a prep school teacher.
An extremely slow season resulting from either the real or perceived lack of
fish in the lake due to Native fishing can send some of these people out of
business.
The point here is that, once again, it is lower class whites who pay a
disproportionate price for the attempt to redress past racism. This is
political suicide: It splits the Leftist and potential Leftist constituency
along racial lines. This problem is, I think, the most serious one created by
the New Left. Yes, gender and racial politics are necessary. But we need to
keep the economic in view. And we need to keep in mind that white people are
not all the same, and we need to ask ourselves who we are asking to pay for
redressing past racism. 'tain't all equal.
A simple 'fuck the whites, they're all priveleged' is escapism and dangerous
politics.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:35:36 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: teaching traumas cont'd...
and permit me to gloss one facet of my last post one stitch further: one
of the greatest difficulties i face is in my tendency to talk too much
(surprised? i bet not)... so in order to help turn over the classroom to
students (which is what "student-centered" really means), i try to develop
a teaching format-structure such that i can at regular intervals get up and
WALK OUT...
yeah---just walk away... let them talk things out among themselves (or if
you have the technology, write things out among themselves), only to
re-enter the discussion at a later point...
now it helps if you have a long-ish class period... but the point here is
that an instructor's input is not required at each and every instant, and
that in fact it might help in general to ask class participants (please
note the shift in terminology) to delve into a specific issue IN YOUR
ABSENCE...
i do it all the time, with generally good results... a certain number of
participants usually object at first, but they get over themselves once
they realize they have much to learn from one another... when i re-enter
the discussion, i tend to ask participants to tell me what all they've been
discussing, where the major conflicts were (if any), what further
speculation/inquiry/even research is possible or necessary, etc... and i
try, i try to limit my input and tendency to paraphrase, albeit i've been
known to blab some at this point...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:42:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
In message <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
group writes:
> I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for
> recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side
> of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other
> suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics
> are welcome.
> Thanks,
> Gary Roberts
the oulipo people, italo calvino, lewis carroll, ws gilbert, joan retallack, bp
nichol, aram saroyan, ...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:32:18 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: po-biz
Peter Landers apologized for "business" message about his magazine on
the list. I'm sorry if my dimwitted "regulatory" comments were unclear.
I'm ALL IN FAVOR of small press business announcements etc. on this
list. I just don't think people should hit the reply button & order
their individual copies, etc. on-list. Anyway, it ain't up to me -
I just wanted to clear that up. (Jordan, you will pay for starting
this thread...!!!) - HG
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:17:56 -0600
Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
henry wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 Rachel Loden said:
> >henry wrote:
> >
> >> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest
> >
> >Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of
> >dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of
> >poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly.
etc...
the poets vs. critics thread almost got me to unlurk. might as well say
it now. in my opinion, criticism is useful. it's like religion for the
people who want some spirituality but don't want to figure out the core
texts for themselves. poems are for people who read poetry and
criticism, likewise, is for people who want it. bashing all critics,
like bashing all religions, is wasted energy. one might as well hate
Carl Sagan for bawdlerizing modern science. might as well hate snow
for falling, water for being wet.
what do i want from this list? i can say what i don't want. i don't
want to put limits to any discussion here.
Pete Landers
landers@frontiernet.net
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:59:10 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Hey Gary--
Hope all is well. Will backchannel you when I have the time. What about
anything by Breton or the Surrealists--not about games per se, but
writing based on games, role of the dice, etc. It would work well with
Cage, I would think. Or what about the Daisy poem that Kerouac & Cassidy
wrote together? (I can't remember the title, but know where to find it
if you're interested.)
Julie
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Gary Roberts wrote:
> I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for
> recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side
> of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other
> suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics
> are welcome.
> Thanks,
> Gary Roberts
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:21:31 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM>
Subject: new magazine on line
I just wanted to let everyone know that the newest
issue of WHERE LITERATURE LIVES, No. 2 (September 1996)
is now on line at Sun & Moon Press's web-sit (http://
www.sunmoon.com).=20
The newest issue contains work by several upcoming and
new Sun & Moon writers (Myung Mi Kim, Charles Bernstein,
Ren=E9 Crevel, Thomas Mann, others) and reviews from recent
Sun & Moon books as well as "In the News," new information
about Sun & Moon writers and events.=20
In future issues, Sun & Moon will publish some reviews of
non-Sun & Moon books. If you have a book you'd like to review,
please let me know (Douglas Messerli). We look forward to
publishing a few other reviews in each of our monthly issues.
I hope you'll vising our web-site and enjoy the contents. You're
welcome to download material as long as it's for personal usage
only. Incidentally, we will be keeping back issues on the site
as well. No 1 of WHERE LITERATURE LIVES can still be accessed.
Douglas Messerli
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:49:55 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: bitmap addressing <filch@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: student racism (white trash)
I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the
appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family
line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure
if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would
come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as
far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash
with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, &
incest.
filch
>& it's not just race; it's class as well. In the prep school I taught in in NY
>state, some students uncritically referred to lower class whites as "white
>trash." I said, "let's find a better word." A student replied, "Oh, they're
>not white trash?" I said, "These people would fall under the category `poor
>white trash.' But I don't believe we should refer to any human beings as
>trash, especially not in a classroom." "Wow, I never thought of that." These
>kids are receiving superb educations.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:37:19 EDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM>
Subject: Re: student racism
I guess we educators have our work cut out for us. Do we make a difference?
What do you non-educators think?
____
In some recent reading a comment was made that the people (mostly white men)
with high school educations who feel disenfranchised and believe in
"reverse-racism" and are falling into the ranks of those spouting vicious
right-wing rhetoric of racial divisiveness and general assaults on poor people,
and are likely candidates for the so-called "militias," etc. were, three
generations ago the same people forming the rank and file of the CIO. The
conclusion (made in the article) was(IS) a disastrous failure on the part of
the Left (today), and an organizer's dream still waiting to happen.
That's a lot of work. What do people think? And does poetry have a place in it?
A: Poetry does have a place in it. Poetry can inform.
daniel_bouchard@hmco.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:10:15 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <324285FD.6D2A@concentric.net> from "Rachel Loden" at Sep 20,
96 04:54:37 am
Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After
all, this is America, ain't it?
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:16:45 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> from "Gary Roberts" at
Sep 20, 96 11:16:10 am
gary,
bpNichol! lots and lots and lots of bpNichol! -- have you seen the
collected performance scores of the _four horsemen_? you can still get
this thru karl young.
take care,
c.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:56:22 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: Re: student racism (white trash)
At 9:49 AM 9/20/96, bitmap addressing wrote:
>I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the
>appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family
>line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure
>if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would
>come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as
>far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash
>with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, &
>incest.
>
>filch
This is Dodie. While I wasn't raised in such an environment, my heritage
too is a long line of white trash--my family was upwardly mobile skilled
labor. After the depression many of my white trash (though hillbilly was
the word of choice in Indiana) relatives migrated from Kentucky to the
Calumet Region to get jobs in the mills and in construction. Up there,
there was lots a prejudice against anybody with a Southern accent, and I
took on that prejudice, and felt appauling shame at my relatives, my
millions of bare-footed shitty toe-headed cousins. When I was in high
school most of them moved back to Kentucky and onto welfare, and I haven't
seen any of them since. I have come to more of an appreciations of my
relatives--but my grandfather was in the Ku Klux, and I've heard stories of
cousins getting into knife fights with blacks--I would hardly call them
harmless.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:38:16 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: [hjaffe@mail.sdsu.edu: Call for submissions]
================= Begin forwarded message =================
From: hjaffe@mail.sdsu.edu (Harold Jaffe)
To: au462@cleveland.freenet.edu
Subject: Call for submissions
Date: Fri, 20 Sep
Would it be possible for you to forward the following ad to your lists:
Call For Submissions
Fiction International will be publishing its second consecutive issue on
the subject of Pain. Fiction, non-fiction, hybrid forms and visuals should
be sent (with SASE) between 9/1/96 and 12/15/96 to: Harold Jaffe, Editor,
Fiction International, English Dept. San Diego State University, San Diego,
CA 92182-8140. Please write "Pain" on your envelope.
Thanks,
Harold Jaffe, Editor
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:45:19 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
hello all,
i was asked to line a clamshell box
with felt. the box is going to house
a volume bound in goatskin.
the felt i can get is 100% polyester.
i would like to find out
whether its use is objectionable
and for what reason?
thank you gudrun
[found 9/19/96]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:50:15 EST
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
Gary,
Have you read THE PLAY OF THE WORLD by James Hans. No particular
poem in it, but an incredible discussion of play that goes well
beyond Huizinga's HOMO LUDEN as well as earlier poststructuralism.
Burt
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:50:54 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: 1st Amendment Freedom: Community Vigilantes: N.Y.C. Community
Court
Carl Peters had an excellent suggestion re poetry & play--The
Prose Tattoo by The Four Horsemen, available from Karl Young's Light
and Dust. Light and Dust also has cassettes of Paul Dutton, Rafael
Barreto-Rivera and bpNichol available, as well as othe bpNichol texts.
Look for Light and Dust at Grist On-Line http://www/thing.net/~grist
also re poetry and play,(and who gets to play and who not) racism & class
war--here is the following
From: ARTISTpres@aol.com
Subject: Community Vigilantes: N.Y.C. Community Court
This Community Wants Its Very Own
Kangaroo Court
by Robert Lederman
On Tuesday night (9/17/96) I attended a meeting of
Community Board #2's Community Court Task
Force. As the president of A.R.T.I.S.T., an
advocacy group for N.Y.C. street artists, my concern
is that CB#2 and City Council Member Kathryn Freed
will use the proposed Community Court to further
harass and persecute street artists in SoHo and the
West Village. Having been an artist-defendant a
number of times in the 54th Street Community Court,
which CB#2 acknowledges as their role model, I
wanted to find out just what CB#2 had in mind.
The 54th Street Community Court specializes in
targeting minorities, the poor, the homeless, disabled
veteran vendors and street artists accused of
"violating" the community. These "violations"
usually involve nothing more than being in the area.
It is neither a court of equal justice nor of
constitutional law. This "court" functions as a
mechanism for business interests and local
community "activists" to harass and eliminate so-
called "undesirables" whom the police are unable to
focus attention on while dealing with legitimate
issues of public safety and crime.
Alan Gerson is the chair of the CB#2 Community
Court Task Force. He took issue with a letter I had
written to a local newspaper criticizing the proposed
Court as a vehicle for Council Member Freed's
particular brand of vigilantism and assured me I'd
"...gotten it all wrong". At first, Gerson vigorously
denied that Council Member Freed had anything to do
with the proposed Community Court. Later he
admitted that he was appointed to CB#2 and to the
chair of the Committee by Council Member Freed and
that numerous other board members were also
appointed by Freed. Ms. Freed has built a career on
"quality of life" issues and is working with the Fifth
Avenue Association, the SoHo Alliance and other
real estate interests to eliminate First Amendment
protection for visual art as a means of eliminating
artists from New York City's streets.
Gerson had a large pile of copies of a document he'd
written entitled, "Outline For CB#2's Community
Court". After much pressuring, he allowed me a brief
look at the document and then quickly took it back.
The document was later leaked to me by a board
member.
Like the 54th Street Court on which it is modeled the
goal of CB#2's Court is to address so-called "quality
of life" violations rather than robberies, rapes or
serious criminal offenses. According to Gerson's
outline, "Late night hours would be utilized by the
police to bring individuals they find engaged in illicit
activity to the court for immediate intake." The
"illicit activities" would presumably include
displaying art, playing a radio, loitering,
panhandling, sleeping on the street, distributing
handbills, vending or holding an open beer.
CB#2's proposed court would not just be a vehicle
for police activity. Local residents would be
encouraged to identify quality of life violators and
bring them before the court. "Community
residents...must have standing to initiate 'citizen
suits' alleging the violation of the administrative
code...[by] signing a petition or [by] the endorsement
of the community board." While the initial target of
this neighborhood "cleanup" will be "outsiders", the
outline acknowledges that, "...most such alleged
violations involve accusations among neighbors,
including neighboring residents and businesses". In
other words, anyone with a petty grudge against his
or her neighbor will now have a means of dragging
them into court on the pretext of having violated their
"life quality".
While expressing deep admiration for the 54th Street
Court, CB#2 wants to go even further in their
practice of "justice" than its role model does. "In
criminal violations, the court must be authorized to
conduct trials. In that way our court would differ
from the Midtown Court which only deals with
defendants who plead guilty, and refers other
defendants to the regular courts. The CB#2 Court
could therefore conduct any necessary trials." In the
midtown court defendants who are not successfully
coerced into pleading guilty and doing community
service are immediately rescheduled for arraignment
in Manhattan Criminal Court at 100 Centre Street.
Justice will be swift and certain in CB#2's court.
"The Court must be set up to conduct intake for
persons accused of criminal violations...and would
therefore need to include a holding area supervised
by Court Officers. The immediacy of intake would
send a positive message to defendants and potential
defendants using our streets...".
Nevertheless, CB#2 does not intend to sentence
defendants to actual jail time. "Our Community Court
would never impose jail sentences. In addition to
imposing fines, the Court would utilize alternative
sentencing for persons who plead guilty or are found
guilty of criminal violations. The court would retain
jurisdiction over the sentenced defendant until he or
she completes their sentence. Persons who refuse to
complete their sentence, and repeat offenders, would
be referred to the regular criminal court system,
where jail time remains an option." Alternative
sentencing includes cleaning and sweeping CB#2's
streets, painting buildings and doing landscaping and
maintenance for the "community".
Barbara Feldt, a community activist from the 54th
Street Court was a guest speaker at the meeting and
gave us some idea of just how this "alternative
sentencing" works. "My personal interest is in
maintaining trees", she explained. "So I call up the
54th Street Court Supervisor and have them send over
defendants, who I supervise in maintaining the trees
in my neighborhood". When I commented that this
sounded a bit like legalized slavery, she became
offended and assured me that she had never profited
in a personal way from any of the crews assigned to
work under her direction. She also described how she
and other 54th Street Court "community activists"
had obtained the names and addresses of men arrested
by undercover cops who pose as prostitutes and
solicit passing cars, and had written personal letters
to each of their wives.
Unlike the 54th Street court, which was built and
continues to be financed by the Fifth Avenue and
Times Sq. Business Improvement Districts, C.B. #2
believes their court, "...deserves full public
financing from the City and State", and proposes,
"...an aggressive campaign for grants from the
federal government and from foundations...". The
grants from foundations would include money from
N.Y.U. which could use the court as a, "...wonderful
opportunity for collaboration between the criminal
justice system and higher education".
The trend of developing Community Courts goes hand
in hand with the spread of B.I.D.s (Business
Improvement Districts). Business and community
"leaders" are dissatisfied with the delays caused by
bothersome constitutional protections such as the
First Amendment, due process and civil rights, and
the fact that many judges dismiss quality of life cases
because they know the defendants were arrested due
to their race or social status.
B.I.D.'s and community courts transfer the authority
of duly elected government officials and judges to
local business leaders who make no pretext of
understanding or caring about civil liberties. B.I.D.s
and Community Courts are simply advocates for
property owners and real estate interests. Protecting
the real or imaginary "rights" of property owners is
their sole mission.
Unlike Manhattan Criminal court, where only 80-
90% of the defendants are minorities, at the 54th
Street Community Court virtually 100% of the
defendants are African-American or Latino. Most
know nothing of their legal rights. Almost all accept
a guilty plea and do community service after being
coerced into doing so by their court appointed
lawyer, a judge answerable to and appointed by the
local community and helpful "intake personnel".
They are then used by the same "community
activists" who had them arrested and by the B.I.D.s
as a source of unpaid labor within the community.
The more arrests that are made the greater the supply
of free labor.
Admittedly, this is an ingenious return to the
plantation system which helped build this nation in
the 17th and 18th centuries. Community Court
convict-defendants usually wear orange or other
easily identifiable coveralls emblazoned with the
courts' logo while working out their sentences in the
community. Ms. Feldt calls this forced labor,
"...giving something back to the community".
Rather than creating jobs or addressing social
inequality, this system puts poor people to work as a
punishment for being visible in an otherwise middle-
class or wealthy community. Community Courts are
similar to the vigilante justice practiced by groups
like the Klu Klux Klan and can ultimately lead to the
kind of police state that existed in Nazi Germany and
in the Soviet Union. There, every citizen acted as a
police informer reporting the real or imaginary
transgressions of foreigners, peddlers, outsiders and
eventually, their own neighbors. The motivation is
blatantly racist and classist. In the Manhattan D.A.'s
words it is, "A bad idea whose time has come".
For more information on A.R.T.I.S.T. contact:
Robert Lederman, president of A.R.T.I.S.T.
(Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics)
(718) 369-2111 E-mail ARTISTpres@aol.com
A.R.T.I.S.T. web site [a journalistic resource]:
http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html
A Selection of Articles on the Street Artist issue......
Daily News 9/8/96 pg. 13, "Law Called Vend-
ictive"; Art In America, March 1996 pg. 128 "New
Allies for Street Artists"; New York Times, Sunday
July 14, 1996, City section pg 1); "The War of
Nerves Downtown; Kathryn Freed's War of Nerves"
[detailed expose of City Council Member Freed];
N.Y. Times 9/1/96 City Section pg 1; "Is This Man
Dangerous? The Portrait Artist in an Age of Zero
Tolerance; Inside the Quality of Life Wars";
Christian Science Monitor Wednesday, February 14,
1996 "Conflict On the Street: Artists v. N.Y.C.";
New York Times Wednesday, January 24, 1996
Metro section pg. B1 "Street Art: Free Speech or Just
Stuff?"; New York Magazine, January 23, 1995 pg 16
"Among the Artlaws"; N.Y. Post 5/26/94 pg. 54,
"Throwing the Book at Artist"; Christian Science
Monitor Thursday, July 14, 1994 pg. 11 "New York
Reins In Street Art"; Time Out Magazine Feb 21-27
1996 pg. 18 "Peddle Pushers"; New York Amsterdam
News Saturday, June 15, 1996 pg. 4 "Artists To Sue
Over First Amendment Right of Speech".
Council Member Freed (212) 788-7722
C.B.#2 (212) 979-2272
Manhattan D.A. (212) 335-9000
--- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:58:45 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: correction
correction: grist On-Line is http://www.thing.net/~grist (typed
an / in place of a . previously)
also check out Translating Translating Apollinaire by bpNichol et al
and Six
Fillious (by Robert Filliou, George brecht, Dieter Roth, bpNichol, Steve
McCaffery and Dick Higgins)
some of this work is on web site Poetry section of Light Dust--
or Art Facts by bpNichol from CHAX (also available from SPD)
--dbchirot
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:54:18 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
Mike Boughn writes:
>Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After
>all, this is America, ain't it?
>
Exactly how long HAVE you been living in Toronto, Mike?
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:29:00 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" <pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM>
Subject: Re: student racism (white trash)
Comments: To: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Interesting, Dodie. My grandfather was in the KKK, too. Worked the RR out
of Knox, Indiana, but hailed from Evansville. In the 1930's, my father was a
pool hustler and got into fights with people he called "hillbillies" though
I don't imagine he was far removed from them himself. But in South Bend,
where I grew up, everyone was Polish or so it seemed.
I'm curious about this thread on students & racism as I'm now an undergrad
in Humanities at CU-Boulder at the maybe too ripe age of 39. After working
in the film industry and the insurance biz, I've decided to become a
professor (whatever that may be). So far, I've caught not a whiff of racism
among my fellow students. The curriculum in my modern fiction class is
fairly canonical, though, so it doesn't encourage people to venture into the
kinds of discussions (or whining) that's been described here.
In my American Indian Religion class I can sense a strong, but unspoken,
split among students: on the one hand, people are filled with an almost
pious respect for Native Americans that borders on the sentimental; on the
other hand, a sharp sense of condescension arises now and then, as if to
say, "Well they were only Indians afterall and we are contemporary
Americans, white & affluent." I feel this is largely attributable to the
often callous attitude of the young, though I could be wrong. The teacher
is Choctaw.
Anyway, these reports are none to encouraging...
Patrick Pritchett
pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com
----------
From: Kevin Killian
To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS
Subject: Re: student racism (white trash)
Date: Friday, September 20, 1996 1:02PM
At 9:49 AM 9/20/96, bitmap addressing wrote:
>I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the
>appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family
>line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure
>if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would
>come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as
>far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash
>with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, &
>incest.
>
>filch
This is Dodie. While I wasn't raised in such an environment, my heritage
too is a long line of white trash--my family was upwardly mobile skilled
labor. After the depression many of my white trash (though hillbilly was
the word of choice in Indiana) relatives migrated from Kentucky to the
Calumet Region to get jobs in the mills and in construction. Up there,
there was lots a prejudice against anybody with a Southern accent, and I
took on that prejudice, and felt appauling shame at my relatives, my
millions of bare-footed shitty toe-headed cousins. When I was in high
school most of them moved back to Kentucky and onto welfare, and I haven't
seen any of them since. I have come to more of an appreciations of my
relatives--but my grandfather was in the Ku Klux, and I've heard stories of
cousins getting into knife fights with blacks--I would hardly call them
harmless.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:50:58 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
The collaborations of John Ashbery and Kenneth Koch
" " " Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett
The work of Bernadette Mayer
" " " Carla Harryman
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:45:59 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM>
Subject: deluxe drug introductions
You know what I liked a lot in the last few months?
I liked Gale Nelson's posts about what he liked about
Bruce Andrews' work. They were detailed, thoughtful,
passionate, etc. On the axis of informing / posturing,
those were pretty saturated with information. I don't
suppose many of us have the time, now that postseason
play is nigh upon us, to compile _pro bono_ remarks
that would show some part of some aesthetic arc
that although in plain sight very truly goes unnoted.
But that sort of lawyering (as in "New Hope") can be
very bracing, especially if the inditor takes
Gale's cue and avoids special pleading -- sticking
to what is there and shying from 'why don't people
read this.' I know that _I_ don't read things, don't
go see things, don't think about things because
those things haven't been mentioned to me
(or if they have, and I've looked and not pursued,
then not pursuing has been either a matter of taste
or one of misunderstanding -- and misunderstanding
may possibly be corrected).
I guess you can tell from the look of this post that
I liked Ira's posts a lot too. Anyway, it's only
our time and money that we're spending on this. All
the posts are fine and unfinished. I may be looking
at a cathode ray tube but I'm not seeing the popular
culture or its countercultural mirror either, I'm
getting something being otherwise. As a denominator
that's enough for me, though I would like the multiple
to get going, if you dig. No? No dig? Ay! -- Jordan
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:13:21 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
>In message <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion
>group writes:
>> I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for
>> recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side
>> of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other
>> suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics
>> are welcome.
>> Thanks,
>> Gary Roberts
>
>the oulipo people, italo calvino, lewis carroll, ws gilbert, joan retallack, bp
>nichol, aram saroyan, ...
I was going to mention most of them, esp I think harry Mathews and Georges
Perec.
Add Jack Spicer.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:16:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Louis Cabri <lcabri@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96092009081522@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> from "henry" at Sep
20, 96 08:49:14 am
henry,
it's wattle.
-l
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:24:07 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
>Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After
>all, this is America, ain't it?
>
>Mike
>mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
I knew it! I knew it! Mike B. is a sizist!
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:24:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: student racism (white trash)
> But as it is as
>far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash
>with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, &
>incest.
>
>filch
Boy, when you put it in those terms, you're talking about my mother's
family, which once in its life had the good sense to escape the Ozarks and
move to Alberta, and then into B.C. mountains, where they sat on fences
with long rifles and no shoes. No kidding.
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:30:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: James Sherry <jsherry@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Readings and Readings at The Segue Performance Space - October
This is Dan Machlin over at The Segue Foundation.
The following are October Readings to be held at The Segue Performance
Space, 303 East 8th Street, NY, NY (between Aves. B&C), Buzzer 1R. All events at
7:30 p.m. sharp, Suggested Contribution $3.00 (except OBJECT Mag. Benefit
see below)
Thursday, October 3
LAURA MORIARTY & MELANIE NEILSON
Thursday, October 10
ELENI SIKELIANOS, LAIRD HUNT, CHARLES BORKHUIS
Thursday, October 17
LEE ANN BROWN (New video work + writings)
JULIE PATTON (Performance Texts)
Thursday, October 24
GROUP READINGS FROM THE SEGUE FOUNDATION SMALL-PRESS ARCHIVE
(A continuing series - shared texts provided)
Group Readings From TUUMBA - Lyn Hejinian's Letterpress Chapbook Series
MEN IN AIDA by David Melnick (#47 - Dec. 83)
PROPERTY by Carla Harryman (#39 - May 82)
BEYOND THE EDGE a double monologue by Doug Hall & Jody Procter of T.R. Uthco
(#8 - Mar. 77)
PLANE DEBRIS by Stephen Rodefer (#36 - Nov. 81)
THE GOSPEL OF CELINE ARNAULD by Clayton Eshleman (#12 - Nov. 77)
Sunday, October 27, 3:00 - 6:00 p.m., Suggested Contribution $5.00
OBJECT MAGAZINE BENEFIT READING
Featuring Kim Rosenfield, Judith Goldman, Bruce Andrews, Brian Kim
Stephans, Stacy Doris, Robert Kocik, Dan Farrell, Joe Elliot, Bill Luoma,
Melanie Neilson, Tim Davis, Rob Fitterman, Jeff Hull, Elizabeth Fodaski &
many others.
Thursday, October 31, Special Holloween Blockbuster Reading
SIANNE NGAI, CAMILLE GUTHRIE & JUDITH GOLDMAN
- BEYOND OCTOBER -
Thursday, November 21
LISA JARNOT, JENNIFER MOXLEY
Thursday, December 12
PETER GIZZI, ERICA HUNT
& watch for other readings and performance events
t.b.a.
For more information about this series, the archive or the Performance
Space you may e-mail after 9/22 to DMACHLIN@FLOTSAM.COM
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:55:48 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
i'd add judy grahn (for her wordplay) if you don't all think i'm too fuddy
duddy for mentioning her...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:05:46 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: forward from another list - it's your privacy ... (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: LYNN EUBANK <eubank@TWLABM.UNT.EDU>
This was sent to me by a reliable source in the AI lab, and I think you
should all be aware of this also.
Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses,
mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information are now
available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis database called
P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information could be used to
commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else to use your identity.
You can have your name and information removed from this list by making a
telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and then option 3
("all other questions") and tell the representative answering that you wish
to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may also send a fax to
(513) 865-1930, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. Box 933 / Dayton,
Ohio 45401-0933.
Sending physical mail to confirm your name has been removed is always a good
idea.
[Actually, it's option 4, then option 9, and all they tell you is that they
need your request in writing (full name and address) sent to the fax or snail
mail address listed above]
As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net,
Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of
operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with
"Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to whom
complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at the
above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According to Lexis, the manager
responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364.
The representative will need your name and social security number to remove
you from the list.
----- End of forwarded message from MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab -----
***********************************************
Richard J. Samuels
Head, Department of Political Science
Director, MIT Japan Program
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
tel: (617) 253-2449 fax: (617) 258-6164
Dr. Lynn Eubank, Chair Lynn Eubank, PhD
Graduate Studies in English Division of Linguistics
Department of English Department of English
University of North Texas Univ of North Texas
Denton, TX 76203 Denton, TX 76203
USA USA
englgrad@twlab.unt.edu eubank@jove.acs.unt.edu
eubank@twlab.unt.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:34:56 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nexis Lexis
In-Reply-To: <v02130500ae67e0b9d273@[198.147.97.101]>
Ooops. Sorry all, just saw the corrections as I plough through my umpty
ump messages. Ignore moi, pliss, I will sit in the dark. gab
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:53:35 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU>
Tom Leonard is a great poetry player. gab.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:55:40 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96092011270398@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, henry wrote:
> By "poetics per se" I mean "the gab about poetry".
> But methinks perhaps the Muse hath departed.
No, no, it's okay i'm still here. gab
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:58:09 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
In-Reply-To: <199609202255.SAA07206@toast.ai.mit.edu>
Hey, no fuddyduddy in judy grahn as far as I know. "Descent to the Roses
of the Family" not playful nor gamey, but certainly not fuddyduddy...
gab.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:30:46 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
ooohhh, "Descent to the Roses of the Family" is new to me -- what is it from?
Excitement, a new judy grahn poem!
no, i was thinking of the linguistic play of _She Who_...
e
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:57:19 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Steve Shoemaker <shoemakers@COFC.EDU>
Subject: reading retallack
In-Reply-To: <v01530505ae68aa357ede@[166.84.199.56]>
Can anyone recommend useful essays or reviews on Joan Retallack's work, esp.
AFTERRIMAGES? Or does anyone have anything to say about it in this space?
I'm still trying to find my way in myself, but wld like to help create a good
reception when she comes to read here in November. Joan is a friend of
mine, but for that reason i'm too embarrassed to ask for help firsthand.
Thanks.
And btw, i guess this is my first post from Charleston, SC rather than
Charlottesville, VA. The new address is shoemakers@cofc.edu for anyone
trying to get in touch.
Steve Shoemaker
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:11:13 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching traumas...
This is a follow-up to Joe Amato's 'teaching traumas' post--I too have had
similar experiences in both creative weiting and literature classes. The
first was several years ago in an Intro Cw (poetry) course in which I tried
to use the Before Columbus Foundation anthology. Several of the students
liked the chance to see poetries in other forms, spoken forms for example,
and dealing with materials they'd been told were not "poetic." But a few
students (one in particular) was outraged by the introduction to the book
(by Ishmael Reed) and simply could not get past that. He felt the entire
book was an example of "reverse racism." I tried speaking with him after
class, but without much success. He went to the Department Chair,
complained that the text was oppressing him--never mind the irony of him
using the very rhetoric he described to me as "whining". . .
In another case though, I taught two advanced courses which could have gone
the same way. One on Spoken Word Poetry which used, among others, the
Aloud anthology; and another Postmodern Poetry course which drew heavily on
what I thought were some very challenging and difficult poets. Anyway, the
advanced courses were much more successful. I did encouter some resistance
in the PM course, not concerning racism but simply due to the strangeness
of some of the texts. In these classes, I used a method similar, I think,
to Amato's pedagogy--I opened discussion by talking about how I tried to
read these texts, both when I first encountered them, and my own lingering
uncertainities. The students were not nearly as resistant, I think, when
they saw that these were _supposed_ to be challenging texts, that they were
_supposed_ to have some very fundamental questions about how to read, etc.
Of course, not everyone wants to challenged, not everyone wants these
questions asked. And when the discussions got directly political,
discussion clearly died down. I haven't tried Amato's technique of walking
out, though. Maybe next time . .
Dean
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 02:19:01 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: 207
207
1 -
1 -------------------------------------------------
2 --------------------------------------------------------------
1 --------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ________________________________________________________________
1 _________________________________________________________________
1 __________________________________________________________________
4 ___________________________________________________________________
7 ____________________________________________________________________
2 _____________________________________________________________________
1
1 [...]
1 America H$$v$ng
1 January February March April
1 May June July August
1 September October November December
1 br$ng$ng th$ wh$l$ t$ $ h$lt. Th$ c$$g$l$t$$n s$nks l$$d$d $nt$ th$
1 $n c$mp$t$t$$n w$th th$ $n$rt d$c$y $f $n$v$rs$l c$p$t$l in America.
1 _h$$v$ng_ $f $ff$ct, r$$t$r$t$$ns $v$r $nd $v$r $g$$n, $ thr$w $f th$
1 p$rh$ps $cr$ss v$r$$$s n$d$s, n$ d$m$ns$$n$l$ty $t $ll, b$t $ c$rt$$n
1 t$n$$$sly h$$v$s th$ l$n$ $r pl$n$ $r n-d$m$ns$$n$l $bj$ct, st$tt$r$d
1 ; feels he's losing it / the application -
1 - just along for the ride - want to walk into a wall of flesh - or at
1 << much confusion prevails >>
____________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:33:06 -0700
Reply-To: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@paul.spu.edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@PAUL.SPU.EDU>
Subject: traumatic teaching
Howdy--
Speaking as a middleclass whiteguy undergrad just one year out of high
school it seems to me that professors and students alike ought to
acknowledge that they are prey to the same variables (which have been
farily well documented in this thread). Judging from the input in this
thread the effects seem quite similar.
Adaptation to each others' learning/teaching "styles" is a central matter
of course. For my own part, my entire perspective on the classroom
dynamic shifted for the better after one of my best high school teachers
told me bluntly (after I'd had her classes): "I'm here to learn. Teaching
is entirely secondary." Many of the students you find sitting in your
classroom (especially those fresh out of HS of course) hold in their minds
a degree of perceived teacher-apathy from their high-school experience.
This naturally gets carried over and projected onto their professors way
too often and in turn is translated into student-apathy. I remember quite
well that high-school students will tend to read an exhausted & flustered
teacher as an apathetic teacher; likewise will undergrads tend to read the
mannerisms of peeved professorship as a sort of You-Are-Here-To-Take-Notes
default teachingmethod. When the class deals with texts, things to be
actively engaged, this kind of communicative block extracts out a whole
lot of potential energy from those students who do in fact give-a-damn
about the texts as much as the professor. Way too many of these problems
arise out of that common human problem of misreading other peoples'
signals.
For students who are less engaging out of a more entrenched apathy I have
nothing to offer. Such seems the nature of the Beast of Olde whose name
is General Education Requirement. As to being 18-22 and knowing
everything, thats all the more reason for confrontation not only from the
texts but from the professor! In my limited experience, it seems that
classroom problems and reactions to texts such as those voiced in this
thread are precisely those from which the teacher has more opportunity
than usual to wring out a learning experience of particular quality for
all involved. A classroomful of faces tepidly staring at you is
understandably aggravating and difficult. Sitting amongst a classroomful
of tepid stares and faces is also aggravating and difficult. Apathy
expands exponentially. Seems to me that profs and students *in tandem*
can most likely contain it so long as there's an understanding in the
environment that problems that arise regarding content/style/whathaveyou
can, ought, and will be dealt with through discussion of demographics
(students', prof's, text's) as needed. This is, for the most part, a
promoted way of saying "hear hear" to Joe Amato's comments on the matter:
> confrontation of any sort is not going to be all that meaningful unless
> students (and faculty) are willing to articulate where they're coming
> from
> it takes some amount of work to create a classroom in which there's
> enough trust and commitment to entertain such
> provocations publicly...
Takes some work indeed. Involving the students in the very process of
creating said environment is a quicker, if not altogether more practical
way of going about this. And I can think of no better instigator of this
process than a text that pokes the reader in the, well.... wherever.
Apologies using this space to sound thoughtful sans any practical tips.
Digressions happen. Classes start here on Tuesday, so I'll see how well I
adapt to my profs and they to me. I trust we'll get along roaring well
after a good sniffing.
Best,
Brian C
P.S. As to interest in reading lists, I am completing my first walk (or
stroll as it were) through _Ulysses_--a book not to be finished. Thus
ends my summer reading list. Bring on the syllabi!
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Carpenter - bricarp@spu.edu "The word for word is word.
__________________________________ Each page is a door to
everything is permitted."
http://paul.spu.edu/~bricarp --William S. Burroughs
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:38:17 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
In-Reply-To: <199609202216.SAA28346@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Louis Cabri"
at Sep 20, 96 06:16:17 pm
Actually, Herb sent me a recent issue of _Martha Stewart Living_
in which she gives directions for making your own dildo from scratch
using old manuscripts on poetics you might have lying around the
house. She suggests staying away from manuscripts of theory and
criticism as generally they are too soft to make good dildoes.
For more info, backchannel Herb or me.
Mike
mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:53:29 CST6CDT
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Hank Lazer <HLAZER@AS.UA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Alabama
Subject: Re: reading retallack
Steve--
There's a brief essay on Joan Retallack's work in my OPPOSING
POETRIES (vol 2 - "Partial to Error: Joan Retallack's _Errata
5uite_"). I believe that Marjorie Perloff has written on
AFTERRIMAGES, but I can't remember where the essay appeared--perhaps
Sulfur?
Hank Lazer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:41:08 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching traumas...
dean, yeah---this is similar to what maria d. and others were saying some
time ago... if you bring into a classroom some presumably difficult work,
and you point out simply that it's not the sort of work that's supposed to
be understood just like that, message-in-a-bottle-style---that it's work
that requires a critical engagement, yes, even an unorthodox sense of
things poetic, but that *anybody* can actively engage so---why then it's
relatively easy to get class participants to begin to talk openly about
what they make of the work... but the issue here, as you suggest, turns
less on what *you* say about the work than on what *they* say... ergo the
need to develop fora in which they're primarily the ones who are doing the
saying, in which you offer your guidance/feedback etc. only as part of a
larger class effort...
in this regard, i've also found online discussion lists useful (if you have
the resources on your campus, have your computer folks set up a provisional
list for your class)... online lists foster distances and proximities of a
different order, depending on the individual... i've found it useful,
recently, to put my syllabus up on the web (for a business com course, of
all things), and to create link(s) within my syllabus to appropriate web
sites (as a start---each person has got to get in the habit of seeking out
independently as well)... and as i posted some time ago, i've also required
monthly electronic journals, based on the results of web searching and
internet experience...
naturally there are issues here having to do with class level (grad,
undergrad) and major (there are no english majors on my campus)... in a few
cases, when a class member really gets into a specific author and generates
something provocative, i've even put that person in contact (generally
online) with the poet or writer in question... both ron silliman on this
list, and michael joyce, have generously responded directly to some of my
students... i wish i could use this latter strategy even more frequently,
but of course this turns on how much time writers like ron or michael have
to help me out with my job!...
anyway, just some thoughts... i think the key issue here is to think
through the varying qualities of the student body (perhaps, as some have
indicated, racist sexist etc. to varying degrees, but also inquisitive
supportive etc. too) in terms of *instructional* authority and
responsibility---which is to say, again, that we need as instructors to
consider our own complicity in these various institutional evils, as brian
c. indicates, and how best to 'get at' same given the full-range of
educational apparatus we have available to us... when a dozen folks take to
exploring in detail even the formal qualities of text, as many of you know,
it becomes an exercise in negotiating conflicting values...
best,
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:18:24 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: Jennifer by Jennifer
2.8
Jennifer
I will put a flower on my head
And I will get into my bed
And I will be dead
I will lead me to the slaughter
Up from the attic rafter
Down to the cleansing water
Lost I will never be
Nor kissed slavishly
Nor sung eternally
For I will put a rose upon my face
And I will lie down in my lace
And I will leave you in this place
Not for nothing, calls in winter
Birds in summer, called hereafter
_______________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:19:13 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching traumas...
I use email lists for all of my courses--students here are automatically
given an email account, although many never bother to access it. I also
have set up web pages for all of my courses, with syllabi and resource
links (including, for my poetry courses, a link to EPC and so to this very
discussion). The problem is how to get the students to use these
resources. There are Internet connected computers all over the campus in
the computer labs, the dorms have ethernet connections, and dial in access
from off campus is free (though that only gives access to email).
Any way, looks like we have bigger problems here at GMU. Check out my next
post. . .
dean
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:23:54 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Classroom (?) trauma
I'm forwarding a message that just came through the faculty list here at
GMU. This illustrates that the problems of racism, sexism, etc that we've
been discussing are not limited to the classroom.
>Begin forwarded message
>The University Board of Visitors has put a freeze on funding for the
>slated gay and lesbian resource center here on campus because, as they
>say, homosexuality is illegal in the state of Virginia. This is, of
>course, incorrect. Sodomy is illegal (which means, in this state,
>anything but the missionary position with your married partner), but
>homosexuality is not. The center exists on paper, someone has been
>offered the job, etc., but now there's no money for it because of this.
>The person that, supposedly, is now in charge of the Board of Visitors'
>committee on the issue is EDWIN MEESE, the rabid ex-Attorney General to
>Ronald Reagan. No other center on campus has ever had to answer to the
>Board of Visitors. More forthcoming on this issue as more info. comes
>in, but there is a Pride Alliance meeting on Tuesday, Oct. 1st when this
>issue will be discussed, and there is another Board of Visitors meeting
>on November 20th where this issue will be discussed.
>Please, at this time, just spread the word about this. The Board of
>Visitors expects us all to just shut up and take it, so spreading
>information is the first step. Tell you students and colleagues.
dean
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:49:13 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching traumas...
Ah, it ain't only in lit/writing classes. When I do the requisite 2
minutes on woman/so-called minorities/other cultures and math in a class
for future high school math teachers, inevitably a bunch of students gets
violently upset, accusing me of favoring women -- it's even been mentioned
to the associate chair. Another bunch tells me they are incredibly
grateful...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judy Roitman | "Glad to have
Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things
Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while."
913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:48:40 -0600
Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company
Subject: Re: poetry and play
Gary Roberts wrote:
>
> I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for
> recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side
> of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other
> suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics
> are welcome.
> Thanks,
> Gary Roberts
Most replies have recommended reading. Here are some games:
Exquisite corpse is always fun to play. Each student writes one line as
the poem is passed around the room.
There is another game in which people write several of their favorite
words then compose a poem from that list.
Tami Regula and I have been playing with homophonic translation as a
means to discovering the sound of Sappho. After much brain sweat we
came up with this line:
Aster iceman, i'm fickle insulation
for
Asteres men amphi kalan selannan
See the homophonic translation thread from a few weeks ago. This was
fun. We were fascinated by Zukofsky's Catullus. Hope this helps.
Pete Landers
landers@frontiernet.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:23:55 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Oren Izenberg <OREN.IZENBERG@JHU.EDU>
Subject: Re: poetry and play
Comments: To: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET>
In-Reply-To: <32443888.E39@frontiernet.net>
Poetry and play: see a terrific book of what is essentially cultural
anthropology called *The Singing Game* by Ione and Peter Opie. It
documents origins and variants of, cross-cultural influences on, etc.
children's games like "London Bridge".
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:12:31 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: teaching traumas...
dean, so meese is up to his tricks?... geezus... sorry to hear this...
yeah, this is not exactly a classroom issue, it speaks to the larger
institutional crises in (attacks on) higher ed... which filter into the
classroom, to be sure...
as to getting classes online and such: one way is simply to *demand* same,
assuming all class participants have access (many institutions provide
email accounts these days to all students)... i've made this a basic part
of the course, and i allow folks the space to complain about it (if they
like)... but complaints should at the very least be informed by first-hand
experience... this becomes, like reading and writing or calculating, one of
the givens of classroom structure... there will be disparities in access,
in any case, but even those who resist initially are likely to appreciate
the experience in the long haul on pragmatic grounds... a quick check at
the beginning of the semester is to insist that each student contact you
via email...
which is not to say that you won't have persistent problems... the
electronic stuff is gonna enjoy the same sorts of absenteeisms as the flesh
& blood venues...
joe
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:35:10 -1000
Reply-To: Gabrielle Welford <welford@hawaii.edu>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Judy Grahn
In-Reply-To: <199609210330.XAA07396@toast.ai.mit.edu>
I'm not sure where "Descent" is published. I was around when she was
writing it around 1986 or so, around the same time as the play about Helen
was put on in the Bay Area. gab
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:15:11 CDT
Reply-To: tmandel@cais.cais.com
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Tom Mandel <tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM>
Subject: reading retallack
I don't know what reviews of JR's work have been written, but
I think of her work as operating in an area one might dub "play of the
world," where play has the sense of play in a joint or fitting and
simultaneously the linked meanings of fun and experimentation.
Joan Retallack invites the reader to hear inside a response to fact and
event that frames them for questioning before they reach one's
subjectivity with their constructed or ideological power. At the heart
of her work is the freedom of the reader, freedom in an ethical
and imaginative sense. To free the reader's imagination of the world,
and in her mind (imho) this moves the readre to a deeper sense of
the ethic of action and response.
The work owes to Cage its openness to just hear the phenomena of
language and meaning as happening in and of the silence and noise
that are their/our largest context. From a very different set of
sources (the Marx brothers I think) comes Retallack's characteristic
"read" of language events for their metaphysical humor.
Anyway, that's where I begin in my sense of JR's "take" ... but they
are just some immediate thoughts.
*************************************************
Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW
Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com
vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349
*************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:46:29 -1000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: e-mail for-ums
In-Reply-To: <199609212012.PAA27084@charlie.cns.iit.edu>
I'm completely stuck on e-mail conversations as a requirement for my
students now. One funny thing is that the students sometimes still
haven't learned each other's name to face recognition. But this makes it
even easier for them to blab away on e-mail--for instance about how they
just can't bring themselves to talk in class, how they hate the reading,
and othre things like how they've experienced racism in their own lives.
Of course, so many of the students here being non-white is a help on that
score. Most students do eventually get on and say something. Others
write in several times a week. And this semesterr, I have 3 students on
the class list who've stayed on from last semester and wrote in without my
suggesting it to introduce themselves. They've volunteered to be kind of
peer mentors to the younger folk in my present class. Warms the cockles
of me eart.
I've had less experience with racism here in Hawaii than on the mainland,
and there it was anti-gay prejudice. A bigger problem here is the
difficulty of relating to the contexts of, say, British Victoriana,
anything that has frozen winter in it... gab
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:20:09 -0800
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Julia Stein <jstein@LAEDU.LALC.K12.CA.US>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Sep 1996 to 20 Sep 1996
>
>____
>Daniel Bouchard said:
>In some recent reading a comment was made that the people (mostly white men)
>with high school educations who feel disenfranchised and believe in
>"reverse-racism" and are falling into the ranks of those spouting vicious
>right-wing rhetoric of racial divisiveness and general assaults on poor people,
>and are likely candidates for the so-called "militias," etc. were, three
>generations ago the same people forming the rank and file of the CIO. The
>conclusion (made in the article) was(IS) a disastrous failure on the part of
>the Left (today), and an organizer's dream still waiting to happen.
>
>That's a lot of work. What do people think? And does poetry have a place in it?
>
>A: Poetry does have a place in it. Poetry can inform.
>
Yes, it does:
Poets and educators can organize poetry readings in solidarity with labor
struggles. I organized one in support of the UNITE garment worker union
campaign to end sweatshop conditions at Guess Inc. We all read about Kathy
Lee Gifford as well as the Thai slaves making clothes in Los Angeles. We
know that the clothing industry is largely sweatshop industry. Guess Inc.
is one big sweatshop and firing workers who try to organize unions. The
State of California did raids of Guess contractors and found out that their
clothes are illegally sewn in people's homes, they don't pay minimum wage,
they don't pay overtime pay, they falsify recrods. So I figured that this
kind of stuff goes on as long as we all do nothing about it. Any kind of
poetry can be read in such a reading; the reading helps educate people
about Guess Inc. and gets people to boycott Guess.
And many poets and critics teach high school and college students--the ones
who are targeted by Guess ads. Having a reading against Guess is another
way to educate students that there are alternatives to the rampant
materialism re clothes since they are bombarded with the ads.
And if you really want to strike a blow a Guess, help leaflet a Guess shop
in a shopping mall. Yes, poetry does have a place in it.
Julia Stein
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:51:03 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA>
Subject: Re: redux is a drug
I just found this from p. 91 of the Sun&Moon edition of Gertrude Stein's
_Mrs. Reynolds_:
"I suppose said he that a dildo could be a lightning conductor."
George Bowering.
,
2499 West 37th Ave.,
Vancouver, B.C.,
Canada V6M 1P4
fax: 1-604-266-9000
e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:02:52 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: SPT: Moriarity/Tu
Small Press Traffic presents
Laura Moriarty
Hung Tu
Friday, September 27, 7:30 p.m.
New College Cultural Center
766 Valencia Street, SF
$5
Laura Moriarty (who I'm sure needs to introduction to this group) is the
author of Symetry (Avec), like roads (Kelsey St.), and Rondeaux (Roof). She
is the director of the American Poetry Archives at San Francisco State.
Hung Tu has been published in Situation, Mirage, and Tense Present
(Incommunicato Press). His chapbook A Great Ravine is forthcoming from
Parentheses Press. He's one of the most exciting young poets to come out of
the poetry renaissance that's boiling in San Francisco.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:04:41 +0100
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM>
Subject: SPT: Moriarity/Tu
>Laura Moriarty (who I'm sure needs to introduction to this group)
That should read: needs NO introduction (and you could put a "whom" in
there as well).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:55 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: citings/sightings
(seems like this might tie a few threads together . . . ):
I've loafed around the streets sometimes, leaned against a
storefront with my hat pushed back and one boot hooked around the
other--hell, you've probably seen me if you've ever been out this
way--I've stood like that, nice and friendly and stupid, like I wouldn't
piss if my pants were on fire. And all the time I'm laughing myself sick
inside. Just watching the people . . .
"You mean," I said slowly, "do I feel persecuted? Well, as a
matter of fact I do, doctor. But I never worry about it. I can't say that
it doesn't bother me, but--"
"Yes? Yes, Mr. Ford?"
"Well, whenever it gets too bad, I just step out and kill a few
people. I frig them to death with a barbed wire cob I have. After that I
feel fine" . . . .
"Stick around," I said. "I'll show you that corncob.
Or maybe you can show me something from your collection--those Japanese
sex goods you used to flash around. What'd you do with that rubber
phallus you had? The one you squirted into that high school kid's face?
Didn't you have time to pack it when you jumped the Coast?" . . .
"Me, Doc? But I sleep well. I don't have headaches. I'm not
worried a bit. The only thing that bothers me is that corncob wearing out."
--Jim Thompson, The Killer Inside Me
--dbc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:30:07 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Classroom (?) trauma
Some clarifications I've just gotten here: Although Ed Meese certain;ly
doesn't favor a gay resource center, he is not on the Committe for Student
Affairs (which defunded the resource center). He is on the Board Of
Visitors (chair of the Academic Affairs Committee!!). The motion to defund
the center passed the entire BOV at something like 12-2. The new
President of the University, wearing a "Diversity" button in support of the
University's recent "Diversity" activities on campus, said nothing.
Yes, there's a big sign as you drive onto campus this week: "Mason
Celebrates Diversity."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:50:52 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: more flavours
George Bowering wrote:
>
> I just found this from p. 91 of the Sun&Moon edition of Gertrude Stein's
> _Mrs. Reynolds_:
>
> "I suppose said he that a dildo could be a lightning conductor."
Thomas Nashe (1567-1601) in "The Merry Ballad of Nash his Dildo":
My little dildo shall supply your kind.
A youth that is as light as leaves in wind:
He bendeth not, nor foldeth any deal,
But stands as stiff as he were made of steel.
But then again in a more Benedettian mode (from "A Litany in Time of
Plague"):
Adieu, farewell, earth's bliss;
This world uncertain is;
Fond are life's lustful joys;
Death proves them all but toys;
I am sick, I must die.
Lord, have mercy on us!
Rachel Loden
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:07:13 +0000
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: desire / and the 39 steps
lunges towards the bell. duty-led and vanishing before an introduction
could be gleened. convention riddled counter cultures replicating market
priveleges of the branding mall. surprising how an exit could be so
effected as to shame itself by so refusing.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:23:35 -0400
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM>
Subject: uunames
________________________________________________________________________
All My Uunames
empowerment uslitho compuchat convolve commspec duck straylight nha gra
falstaff wolfe tml metro-net hope siotech satan fighter candy deli itcnet1
rdb suzys jcainc parousia bwen sdale cliplaw tusrifny ravinomics jupiter
lions-wing dcisun mollusk clotho alan neuromancer apteryx essert mel
maddog clarchitects clmultimedia londonfischer dongrn netcomsv atari nova
powermail tcbdata perun hpi genesis fesny argos yarcomm nams2 perform
ramnet njn ubellent warwick jennifer clara echo mydog kc2yu upaya absol
cius crayola honey sci goo brann dont waena jmtunix softport thetis sss-gw
emc treebranch server galaxy999 sjluucp tiffany salinasgroup amnumsoc
strand tminet pubmedia cyb stone cemetery brownstone bottomer wbsg oli
uslynx nn teamdnet cyberia trangy chesler wa2oga major prcs lamp comstat
orb bicny salty rbsis dolphy wildlife girisuci NYMSYS mtgany midnite
eastnet icphost stam10 gbs homer
__________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:13:25 -0700
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM>
Subject: teaching traumas
I haven't been following this thread very closely, but a book and magazine
that MIGHT be useful in this context is Race Traitor edited by Noel
Ignatiev and John Garvey. The book (published by Routledge) draws from the
first five or six issues of the magazine. The address for the magazine is
P O Box 603, Cambridge, MA 02140.
The focus is on the social construction of race, and abolishing, not
racism, but the notion of a white race, with lots of first person accounts
amidst the polemics.
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 15:49:33 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US>
Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 20 Sep 1996 to 21 Sep 1996
I'll be in the Seattle area from Oct. 3 through Oct. 9 including forays to
Portland and Vancouver. I'd be interested in meeting any subscribers to this
list who live in those vacinities. Contact me back-channel
<jbrannen@infolink.morris.mn.us>.
Jonathan Brannen
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:03:43 -0500
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: New journal (fwd>
Gender-related topics on anything involving sound and
"avant-garde" would be welcome.
=======================================================================
*WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE*
International Alliance for Women in Music announces the inauguration of a
new publication:
*WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE* is a journal of
scholarship about women, music, and culture. Drawing on a wide range of
disciplines and approaches, the refereed journal seeks to further the
understanding of the relationships among gender, music, and culture, with
special attention being given to the concerns of women.
Submissions of varying length are now being accepted for consideration in
the inaugural issue. Expected publication of the first issue is winter,
1997. Author guidelines: Send three copies, two without identifying
information and one with, and a disk copy to:
Women and Music/IAWM
Department of Music
B-144 Academic Center
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
All submissions undergo a blind review process.
For further information, call the IAWM office at 202-994-6338, or send a
FAX 202-994-9038, or an e-mail message to: Catherine Pickar at
<cpickar@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>.
*WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE* will be available to
IAWM members as part of the current dues structure and to non-IAWM
members for a fee.
Editorial Board Members:
Patricia Adkins-Chiti
Karen Ahlquist, Reviews Editor
Jane Bowers
Rae Linda Brown
Marcia Citron
Susan C. Cook
Suzanne Cusick
Joke Dame
Linda Dusman
Annegret Fauser
Sophie Fuller
Eve Meyer, ex-officio
Lydia Hamessley
Ellie M. Hisama
Freia Hoffman
Jeffrey Kallberg
Ellen Koskoff
Fred E. Maus
Susan McClary
Helen Metzelaar
Pirkko Moisala
Margaret Myers
Jann Pasler
Karen Pegley
Catherine J. Pickar, Editor
Eva Rieger
Julie Anne Sadie
Catherine Parsons Smith
Ruth A. Solie
Judy Tsou
Riita Valkeila
Amy Wajda, Editorial Assistant
Catherine J. Pickar
Associate Professor of Music
The George Washington University
Washington, DC, 20052
Phone: 202-994-6338
FAX: 202-994-9038
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