========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: PAW & other parts of the sun & moon family of corporations? >Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700 >From: Douglas Messerli >Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner > >Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine: >Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be >one of the major works in that special issue devoted to >the "theatrical" in lit. > >Douglas Messerli Douglas-- what's the current array of s&m magazines, and what's the logic of the one-press-multi-mag tack? There's PAW, and RIBOT, and? all best (long time no see!) Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:20:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: veal scallopini I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue. mark /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | | to go to extremes" | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 09:39:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: veal scallopini In-Reply-To: I'm sorry, Mark, ziti or no ziti, you're pasta point of no return. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:07:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: veal scallopini Mark Wallace wrote: > > I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public > dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any > pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue. The ever-litigious Mr. Wallace should think twice before indulging these proclivities. If he really wanted to maintain his double life, why did he allow himself to be lured out onto that hotel balcony? The harder they come, the harder they fall (as Stephanopoulos is so fond of saying). Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:19:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: Labor Day In honor of Labor Day, this poem by Fred Voss from his book Goodstone, a book of work poems about his job as a machinist in a Southern California aircraft factory. Asleep We machine the teeth of gears and the cutting edge of drills. We bore out cyclinders, turn pistons and rods, thread screws and nuts and bolts. We machine the dies that stamp out pipes and seals and valves. We are the engine, the driveshaft, and the pump; the wing and the wheel-- and yet we believe that we are powerless as we sit in bars and watch the president on television. Fred Voss ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:06:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: veal scallopini >I really must correct Gwyn on this point--I've never been seen in public >dressed only in veal scallopini. I wear Ziti or nothing at all. Any >pictures saying otherwise are hoaxes, and I'm prepared to sue. > >mark I noticed the panic with which you make this avowal, Mark. I remember on my only trip to Washington D.C., I distinctly saw you with two other people of undiscernible sex near the Lincoln Memorial, and two of you at least were wearing Thai cuisine, the third in veal scallopini. George Bowering. "snowdrops grow near the warm chimney" 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Nelson Ball fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:03:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: CSPAN-2 to Air "Freedom to Write" Program Thanks for mentioning this Gale. It was especially interesting. I was altogether enraptured by the phrase "The poet is the only one who never forgets." cf >C-SPAN-2 will air an edited version of the Freedom to Write Conference, held >at Brown this past spring. The air date is Saturday, 31 August at 8:00 p.m., >via their "About Books" program. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 04:00:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Time / Script / Unix - Hell: Cannot Create Time: Script started on Sun Sep 1 23:21:07 1996 warning: could not update utmp entry netcom% telnet panix3.panix.com Trying... Connected to panix3.panix.com. Escape character is '^]'. No directory /net/u/6/s/sondheim! touch: cannot touch //.motd_time: no write permission $ touch motd_time touch: cannot create motd_time: Permission denied $ touch time touch: cannot create time: Permission denied $ touch exit touch: cannot create exit: Permission denied script done on Sun Sep 1 23:21:50 1996 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:31:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: David Tudor Obituary] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4BAC54735E77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks -- thot this may ineterest you -- Pierre John Whiting wrote: > > The [London] Guardian August 28 1996 > > OBITUARY > > David Tudor > > Black Mountain sounds > > DAVID Tudor, who has died aged 70, abandoned a career as a > virtuoso performer of contemporary piano music to devote himself > to the composition and performance of electronic music. > > Tudor was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he began his > career as an organist. After studying composition and piano, he > began to concentrate on the piano and soon became known as an > interpreter of some of the most demanding works in the > contemporary repertory. > > In New York in 1950, he gave the American premiere - and the > second performance anywhere - of Pierre Boulez's Second Piano > Sonata. He also gave the first performances of works by > Karlheinz Stockhausen, who dedicated a piece to him, and many > others. But his closest association was with John Cage, who said > that all his works until 1970 were written either directly for > Tudor or with him in mind. He gave the first performances of > Cage's Music of Changes (1952) and the Concert for Piano and > Orchestra, the latter at a retrospective concert of Cage's music > at New York Town Hall in 1958, when the work was "conducted" by > Merce Cunningham. > > When the Merce Cunningham Dance Company was formed at Black > Mountain College in North Carolina, in the summer of 1953, with > John Cage as musical director, Tudor joined him as company > musician. He continued to perform and tour with the company > until the end of 1994, when ill-health caused him to retire. > After the death of Cage in August 1992, Tudor had succeeded him > as the company's musical director, and he continued as musical > advisor. > > In the early days, Tudor loved to play 19th century salon music, > and he made a selection of such pieces for Cunningham's Dime a > Dance in 1953. Another Cunningham dance of that year was Banjo, > to music by Louis Moreau Gottschalk. Cunningham's dancers could > not understand why the choreographer had chosen the piece when > they heard it played by another pianist, so Cunningham asked > Tudor to play it for one rehearsal. "It sounded like 50 banjos > all played at once," Cunningham has said, and when they heard, > the dancers understood. Tudor also played music of this kind for > dances by the eccentric and beautiful Katherine Litz. > > At Black Mountain in 1952, where Tudor was an instructor, he took > part in Cage's famous untitled, unstructured theatre piece, > together with Cunningham, the poets Mary Caroline Richards and > Charles Olson, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. A number of > friends from Black Mountain later formed the Gate Hill Co-op in > Stony Point, New York, known as "The Land," where Cage, Tudor, > Richards, and other artists lived for many years. > > In the early 1960s, Cage and Tudor initiated the trend towards > "live" (as opposed to taped) electronic music in the Cunningham > company's musical repertory, and Tudor ended his active career as > a pianist. In 1968 he composed his first score, for Cunningham's > Rain Forest. This was followed by Sounddance (1975), Exchange > (1978), Channels/Inserts (1981), Quartet (1982), Phrases (1984), > Shards (1987), Five Stone Wind (with Cage and Takehisa Kosugi) > (1988), Polarity (1990), and Enter (1992). In the autumn of > 1992, he returned to the acoustic piano in concert performances > of Cage's Winter Music with Atlas Eclipticalis and, in 1993, Solo > for Piano. In 1994, Cunningham was able to realise his final > collaborations with Cage, Ocean, to which Tudor contributed the > electric component, Soundings: Ocean Diary. The orchestral > element, played by 112 musicians, is by Andrew Culver, following > Cage's original concept. The work was performed earlier this > summer, at the Lincoln Center Festival in New York. > > Many of the electronic devices used in Tudor's compositions were > designed and made by himself. Tudor was one of four core artists > who collaborated on the design of the Pepsi Pavilion for Expo > '70, Osaka, Japan, a project of Experiments in Art and > Technology. With the visual artist Jacqueline Monnier, he > developed a kite environment that was installed at the Whitney > Museum in New York in 1986, in Dusseldorf in 1988, and at the > Jack Tilton Gallery. in New York in 1990. Other collaborators > included the filmmaker Molly Davies, the choreographer Viola > Farber, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. > > He was a great cook, particularly of the cuisine of India, where > he had spent much time. "John Cage said David had a golden ear," > Merce Cunningham said recently, and added, "that he did, but he > also had a marvellous sense of humour." In general, Tudor's > contribution to the life and work of the Cunningham company was > more than just musical; as much as Cunningham and Cage > themselves, he personified its philosophy. > > One day at Black Mountain when Cunningham was rehearsing an > extremely complex solo, one of the first he had choreographed > with chance process, he sat down in despair. Tudor then > remarked: "Well, this is clearly impossible - but we'll go right > ahead and do it anyway." > > David Vaughan > > David Tudor, composer, born January 20, 1926; died August 13, > 1996 --------------4BAC54735E77 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.206.136]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA15864 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 1996 05:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id EAA25491; Wed, 28 Aug 1996 04:47:04 -0400 Date: 28 Aug 96 04:44:54 EDT From: John Whiting <100707.731@CompuServe.COM> To: Charles Amirkhanian , "Robert J. Bertholf" , Dale Carter , RONALD GUY DAVIS , Richard Elen at Apogee E , Richard Ehlich <100621.2143@CompuServe.COM>, Dave Foister <101531.3703@CompuServe.COM>, Richard Friedman , Gehlhaar-Matossian , Maria Gilardin , Don Guttenplan , Michael Hrebeniak , Pierre Joris , David Josephson , Matthew Lasar , Hugh Macdonald <106041.1512@CompuServe.COM>, Dave Malham , "Richard K. Moore" , jack nessel , Gallery October <100516.1427@CompuServe.COM>, "\"John Ohliger\"" , "Dr. William Paterson" , Charles Shere <104477.3243@CompuServe.COM>, William Sommerwerck , Maxwell Steer , Colin Still , Carl Stone , John Sunier , Larry or Lynn Tunsta , "\"Harvey Wheeler\"" , John Whiting <100707.731@CompuServe.COM> Subject: David Tudor Obituary Message-ID: <960828084454_100707.731_EHU39-1@CompuServe.COM> X-Status: The [London] Guardian August 28 1996 OBITUARY David Tudor Black Mountain sounds DAVID Tudor, who has died aged 70, abandoned a career as a virtuoso performer of contemporary piano music to devote himself to the composition and performance of electronic music. Tudor was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where he began his career as an organist. After studying composition and piano, he began to concentrate on the piano and soon became known as an interpreter of some of the most demanding works in the contemporary repertory. In New York in 1950, he gave the American premiere - and the second performance anywhere - of Pierre Boulez's Second Piano Sonata. He also gave the first performances of works by Karlheinz Stockhausen, who dedicated a piece to him, and many others. But his closest association was with John Cage, who said that all his works until 1970 were written either directly for Tudor or with him in mind. He gave the first performances of Cage's Music of Changes (1952) and the Concert for Piano and Orchestra, the latter at a retrospective concert of Cage's music at New York Town Hall in 1958, when the work was "conducted" by Merce Cunningham. When the Merce Cunningham Dance Company was formed at Black Mountain College in North Carolina, in the summer of 1953, with John Cage as musical director, Tudor joined him as company musician. He continued to perform and tour with the company until the end of 1994, when ill-health caused him to retire. After the death of Cage in August 1992, Tudor had succeeded him as the company's musical director, and he continued as musical advisor. In the early days, Tudor loved to play 19th century salon music, and he made a selection of such pieces for Cunningham's Dime a Dance in 1953. Another Cunningham dance of that year was Banjo, to music by Louis Moreau Gottschalk. Cunningham's dancers could not understand why the choreographer had chosen the piece when they heard it played by another pianist, so Cunningham asked Tudor to play it for one rehearsal. "It sounded like 50 banjos all played at once," Cunningham has said, and when they heard, the dancers understood. Tudor also played music of this kind for dances by the eccentric and beautiful Katherine Litz. At Black Mountain in 1952, where Tudor was an instructor, he took part in Cage's famous untitled, unstructured theatre piece, together with Cunningham, the poets Mary Caroline Richards and Charles Olson, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. A number of friends from Black Mountain later formed the Gate Hill Co-op in Stony Point, New York, known as "The Land," where Cage, Tudor, Richards, and other artists lived for many years. In the early 1960s, Cage and Tudor initiated the trend towards "live" (as opposed to taped) electronic music in the Cunningham company's musical repertory, and Tudor ended his active career as a pianist. In 1968 he composed his first score, for Cunningham's Rain Forest. This was followed by Sounddance (1975), Exchange (1978), Channels/Inserts (1981), Quartet (1982), Phrases (1984), Shards (1987), Five Stone Wind (with Cage and Takehisa Kosugi) (1988), Polarity (1990), and Enter (1992). In the autumn of 1992, he returned to the acoustic piano in concert performances of Cage's Winter Music with Atlas Eclipticalis and, in 1993, Solo for Piano. In 1994, Cunningham was able to realise his final collaborations with Cage, Ocean, to which Tudor contributed the electric component, Soundings: Ocean Diary. The orchestral element, played by 112 musicians, is by Andrew Culver, following Cage's original concept. The work was performed earlier this summer, at the Lincoln Center Festival in New York. Many of the electronic devices used in Tudor's compositions were designed and made by himself. Tudor was one of four core artists who collaborated on the design of the Pepsi Pavilion for Expo '70, Osaka, Japan, a project of Experiments in Art and Technology. With the visual artist Jacqueline Monnier, he developed a kite environment that was installed at the Whitney Museum in New York in 1986, in Dusseldorf in 1988, and at the Jack Tilton Gallery. in New York in 1990. Other collaborators included the filmmaker Molly Davies, the choreographer Viola Farber, and the painter Robert Rauschenberg. He was a great cook, particularly of the cuisine of India, where he had spent much time. "John Cage said David had a golden ear," Merce Cunningham said recently, and added, "that he did, but he also had a marvellous sense of humour." In general, Tudor's contribution to the life and work of the Cunningham company was more than just musical; as much as Cunningham and Cage themselves, he personified its philosophy. One day at Black Mountain when Cunningham was rehearsing an extremely complex solo, one of the first he had choreographed with chance process, he sat down in despair. Tudor then remarked: "Well, this is clearly impossible - but we'll go right ahead and do it anyway." David Vaughan David Tudor, composer, born January 20, 1926; died August 13, 1996 --------------4BAC54735E77-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: homophonic translation/translitics... i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as this: I am the milkshake without color And without hands, come the butcher, Come Moses the rocker! An I am wild as a pauper, For the abbreviation of my Sahara, The jailer has the eyes of Southern france. My desire has gone, fled the desperation Over the black's salty tears... --Andrew Klimek from _Flowers of Mel_ Dick Higgins credits Robert Kelly for the term, and mentioned Steve McCaffery as having done such? & Dave Melnick has some based on Homer (Men in Aida)... specific refs wd be much appreciated. i have in hand 2 recent: _The Real Ideal_ by Joel Lipman, & _Prime Sway_ by John M. Bennett; i wanted to be able to put them better into context. shoe crayon luigi-bob drake ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 07:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... Comments: To: Robert Drake >i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic >translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another >language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as >this: Several that come quickly to mind are: Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by, collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou, George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones. I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never knew about. Bests Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:18:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: PAW & other parts of the sun & moon family of corporations? Ribot is its own magazine, not published by Sun & Moon Press all--just distributed by us. It's published by Paul Vangelisti in Los Angeles. The new "magazine" is actually a semi-annual anthology of specific topics. In fact S&M doesn't publish any magazines. Douglas At 09:54 PM 8/31/96 -0700, you wrote: >>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700 >>From: Douglas Messerli >>Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner >> >>Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine: >>Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be >>one of the major works in that special issue devoted to >>the "theatrical" in lit. >> >>Douglas Messerli > >Douglas-- > >what's the current array of s&m magazines, and what's the logic of the >one-press-multi-mag tack? There's PAW, and RIBOT, and? > >all best (long time no see!) > >Tenney > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely sound-rhymed poem from Donne. Douglas Messerli At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic >>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another >>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as >>this: > >Several that come quickly to mind are: > >Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The >opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic >translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by, >collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou, >George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic >translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane >Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating >Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a >kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including >homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I >remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being >identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones. > >I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never >knew about. > >Bests > >Herb > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: trains late in a pollen air (fwd) re homophonic translation; might be thought of also in terms of American humor writing, vaudeville and movies-- with varying degrees of literacy and a huge popuation of ESL speakers and writers--a lot of American humor has used the english language as the language to be translated-- an early example is Artemus Ward--there's a story about a boy constructor for example, a giant menacing snake who can swallow near anything-- and in the Marx Brothers, the "Why a Duck"-- small children practise homophonic translation on a regular basis-- witness what goes on during "wreck creation" time--one child's homophonic explanation for destruction of a kindergarten class room-- trains late in a pollen air --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996 Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996 Poet and film maker Frank Kuenstler died on August 11. A short obituary appeared in The New York Times, August 31. There will be a memorial service for Frank on Wednesday, September 4, at 670 West End Avenue (call 212-362-1691 for more information). In the next month I hope to have a full bibliography of Kuenstler=92s work= on the EPC. His books are: LENS (New York: Fim Cultures, 1964) Selected Poems (New York: Eventorium Press, 1964) Paradise News (New York: Eventorium Press, 1966) Fugitives. Rounds (1966) 13=BD Poems (New York: SZ/Press, 1984) Continued (New York: Night Three Press. 1987) Miscellany (New York: Night Three Press. 1987) In Which (New York: Cairn Editions, 1994) Here=92s what I wrote for 13=BD Poems: The publication of 13=BD Poems marks the twentieth anniversary of Film Culture=92s edition of Frank Kuenster=92s first book Lens. Lens=92s= brilliantly iconoclastic and cosmic compression of syntax and lexicon ranks Kuenstler with such pioneers of Zaum (Khlebnikov=92s word for pervasively neologistic poetry) as Gillespie, Melnick, and Inman. In 13 =BD Poems, we get another= side of Kuenstler =96 less intractably opaque, more lightheartedly amusing. Each= of the poems in the new collection suggests a different style: Kuenstler has provided a group show all on his own. More remarkably, in the long, final poem, "Text", Kuenstler achieves a maniacally nonstop synthesis of "blunt" cut-up and everyday "pandemonium" =97"Foolish spirit foolish theory zeal almost macabre A craze =85 alert aggressive, military Maudlin, extreme." LENS remains, for me, Kuenstler=92s great work. It is composed, basically,= of two-word pairs joined by a period (though a period follows every word pair as well); though sometimes phrases stand in for single words. It is flush right, with hyphens noting split words. It runs 92 pages and is dated at the end: 1952-1964. Here is the opening of LENS (minus the italic "f."s and accents on metie=92r and cre=92me & not justified): mm.Pris. metier.AAA. prime.Airies. numbers.Racquet. comma.Dei. rr.1919. peru.Ruse. glen.A. ggg.Ire. leapfrog.Mick. creme.Nail. game.Ble. flame- Bouyant. f.Rose. not.Ice. door.I. nigh.Eve. feather.Rail. mm.Error. mm.- Pris. Oscar.Later. f.Oil. I=92m.Moon. bb.Abe count.Tokay. newman.Asiatics. mezzo.Potomac. sinned.Drone. signed.Hormone. rr.Asp. clues.Ott. oft.Shoes. Deaf.Acid. ggg.Own. rape.Cyclical. Faith.Per Se. soul.Elicit. F.Unction.= tie- Grass. sign.Am carp.Pathagorean gas.Tone mm.Acquire f.Rail salon.- Leica. Canine.Father tv.Jeeps it must be spring-A. picture of a flower just flashed upon the screen. rr.Lourdes. rr.Lao-tse. rr-Enter. Rr.Entire. Frank lived in my neighborhood not only metaphorically but literally: I occasionally ran into him in the xerox store and on the streets. For a number of years he send out xeroxed pages of found art, with just an almost anonymous ARCHIVE stamped where a return address would usually be. Bruce Andrews did a cut-up of LENS for L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE #13 (1981);= he called it: "And For Anything I Could Call My Own Thinking". *** finally a haiku from Paradise News: Fish swim. They die. They rise to the surface. It is their way of falling. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:27:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Swear word here! >George Bowering added ("That was YOU?"): > >> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the >> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- >> > >> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed >> >> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was >> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little >> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. > >I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can >clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but >he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite >all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get >paid for the shoot? > > >Rachel Loden I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some women's clothing in Washington. George Bowering. "I sit inside the blond before you" 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:33:29 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... Comments: To: Robert Drake In-Reply-To: <199609021319.JAA19896@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Numerous works by Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett, especially those collected in BEAN SPASMS. Ron Padgett's SOME BOMBS (homophonic translations of Reverdy) (in Great Balls of Fire) always seemed to me particularly successful. Berrigan talks about the difference between these works and the Zukofsky CATULLUS in one of the interviews collected in TALKING IN TRANQUILITY. (Doug Messerli, when are you going to reprint Bean Spasms in your S&M Classics series?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:44:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... is PCOET a homophonic translation? or were you thinking of melnick's MEN IN AIDA? doncheney dcheney@ucsd.edu You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely sound-rhymed poem from Donne. Douglas Messerli At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic >>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another >>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as >>this: > >Several that come quickly to mind are: > >Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The >opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic >translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by, >collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou, >George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic >translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane >Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating >Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a >kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including >homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I >remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being >identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones. > >I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never >knew about. > >Bests > >Herb > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com > >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id JAA19303 sendmail >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release >Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail >Received: from hollywood.cinenet.net by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) >Received: from ppp83.cinenet.net by hollywood.cinenet.net with SMTP (8 >X-Sender: djmess@cinenet.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; chars >Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960902080017.1 >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli >Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... >To: Mul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 20:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: homophonic translation / a very clean thread Mitch Highfill did some sound translations of Petrarch, published in the Poetry Project's short-lived (does that rhyme with 'chived' or with 'gived'?) magazine 'Cuz'. Bruce Andrews's recent work, 'Lip Service', that's a sound translation of Dante, right? Of the Paradiso? Lived is short, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:53:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... In addition to those mentioned by Herb Levy, there's the comic stuff, most famously 1. Mots d'heures: Gousses, Rames: The d'Antin Manuscript New York: Grossman, 1967 2. Guillaume Chequespierre and the Oise Salon: an Anthology Selected and Edited by John Hulme. New York: Harper & Row, 1986. sample poem from #2 (french accentuation and lengthy footnotes omitted): "En ca, ne doux dite coup belle la Cannes Aas tete, lippe l'azur d'homem, di cri Ou air; alfa de sias crete riverain. Truc a verne ce, mais jure lesse tout main. Don tous a sonne l'esse, si . . . " --S. Colleriche (Kubla Khan) "Baille de chose ouef guichet gourmet Baille de chaine y ne bigue si ou or terre. Ce tout de ce oui Guam oeuf no commises. Dort terre ouef demon, nos commises." -- H. Longeuvelo (Hiawatha) --- I remember some years ago reading that Harry Mathews was compiling a vocabulary of words that existed in both French and English, out of which he was projecting a novel. But I no longer have the source for this snippet of information. Does anyone out there know anything about the Mathews project? Did he ever write any of it? --- Peter At 09:19 AM 9/2/96 -0400, Robert Drakewrote: >i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic >translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another >language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as >this: > > I am the milkshake without color > And without hands, come the butcher, > Come Moses the rocker! > An I am wild as a pauper, > > For the abbreviation of my Sahara, > The jailer has the eyes of Southern france. > My desire has gone, fled the desperation > Over the black's salty tears... > > --Andrew Klimek > from _Flowers of Mel_ > > >Dick Higgins credits Robert Kelly for the term, and mentioned >Steve McCaffery as having done such? & Dave Melnick has some >based on Homer (Men in Aida)... specific refs wd be much >appreciated. > >i have in hand 2 recent: _The Real Ideal_ by Joel Lipman, & >_Prime Sway_ by John M. Bennett; i wanted to be able to put >them better into context. > >shoe crayon >luigi-bob drake > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:08:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Frank Kuenstler 1928-1996 Mr. Bernstein wrote- "Lens's brilliantly iconoclastic and cosmic compression of syntax and lexicon ranks Kuenstler with such pioneers of Zaum (Khlebnikov's word for pervasively neologistic poetry) as Gillespie, Melnick, and Inman." I am quite probably wrong and in need of correction but it is my understanding that zaum is more accurately translated as transrational, trans-sense, or beyond sense. I'm not sure I understand how one gets from that to "pervasively neologistic" which I understand to mean "new words". I suppose the argument could be made that zaum encompasses this idea of "new words" however it is my understanding that Khlebnikov had a distinct fascination with the origins of words as such and prefered greatly to return to the origins of the Russian language rather than to create something new. From what I understand, his coinages etc. were, in his opinion, a sort of "etymologism" which seems to leave little room for "new words". I believe Markov wrote, at one point, that Kruchonykh & Khlebnikov together created the foundation for zaum in their piece entitled "The Word As Such." I believe also there has been a great deal of uncertainty about the actual origins of the word, popularly attributed to Khlebnikov, as it seems several different people actually claim "the rights" as it were. I even remember reading on a plane a few years ago a rather bizaare theory which held that the word actually originated with one of the Burliuk brothers, probably D. God help me if I can remember where I got that one. Any help clarifying this would be greatly appreciated. BTW I am still wondering if anyone knows of an English translation of A.N. Chicherin's "Change of All"? filch ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: zaum re zaum: Markov also sugested a source for zaum may have been essays on "speaking in tongues"in various religous sects in Russia--this would be as "filch" pointed out, not the invention of new words, but transrational words with sources in a traditional religous context-- the relationship of the spiritual to the work of Kruchenyk, Khlebnikov, Malevich (not to mention Kandinsky) is well known on the next to last page of Spring and All, Wiiliams Carlos Williams says of zaum, as he knew of it: Writing is likened to music. The object would be it seems to make poetry a pure art, like music. Painting, too. Writing, as with certain of the modern Russians whose work I have seen, would use unoriented sounds in place of conventional words. The poem would be completely liberated when there is identity of the sound with something--perhaps the emotion. (This is interesting in relation to Ornette Coleman's famous remark re Free Jazz: "It's not about notes, it's about feelings.) --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Not homophonic Mathews Peter Quartermain wrote: >I remember some years ago reading that Harry Mathews was compiling a >vocabulary of words that existed in both French and English, out of which he >was projecting a novel. But I no longer have the source for this snippet of >information. Does anyone out there know anything about the Mathews project? >Did he ever write any of it? Peter - I remember seeing something about this somewhere, too. &, if anyone could do an entire novel in this mode, Mathews is one writer who might could. But I'd thought this double vocabulary (sort of the inverse of homophonic - but I can't think of a suffix that'd mean spelling, false cognates maybe) was for the only slightly (don't want to offend any poets who may be on this list) more modest possibility of short poems. I mean, there's only so much you can do with the fact that, say, "pour" and "pain" are words in both languages. To make a sustained narrative that makes even an extremely tortured kind of sense in both languages seems to be a perhaps insurmountable problem. Shorter lyrics seem a little less problematic. But then the first time I read, in French, about an amazing machine they had at IRCAM which could do all kinds of weird transformations of sound. It was weeks before I found someone who could tell me what it was. & I found out that an "ordinateur" is just a "computer." So, uh, I may not be the best person to judge the possible options here. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:22:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960902175330.26677aa8@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> Anyone know of "Ladle Rat Rotten Hut?" Not poetry but homophonic and funny. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 03:34:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Homophonic translations Luigi-B., My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins: Where when itch scree hurt as much? Then how's their angle or known gun? Honky sets selves, his name a eye nor much. Plows lick answers: each fucking a fun sign-in, starker in design. Dent is seen as niche.... (and so forth for seven long pages in that old Roof 8.5 x 11 format). It was a piece I started circa '71 and worked on sporadically for several years before I began to be satisfied with it. I believe that somebody (Robert Kelly?) at one point a few years back was trying to put together an anthology of such translations, but I don't think anything ever came of the effort. All best, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael D Basinski Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 29 Aug 1996 to 30 Aug 1996 Comments: To: Automatic digest processor In-Reply-To: <199608310404.AAA11542@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> ---------------------------- Michael Basinski Poetry/Rare Books Collection SUNY at Buffalo 716-645-2917 Fax: 716-645-3714 On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Automatic digest processor wrote: > There are 10 messages totalling 426 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. 12? in sanskrit > 2. need some info (2) > 3. Events in Providence > 4. interesting article on the web > 5. Street-Art: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT" (fwd) > 6. > 7. Kerouac > 8. Hannah Weiner > 9. xxx/event: one > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:40:46 -0400 > From: Blair Seagram > Subject: 12? in sanskrit > > Does anybody know what the sanskrit word for 12 is? > > Blair > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:57:31 -0400 > From: Michael Boughn > Subject: need some info > > Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack > Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time > tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm > specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: > Writer without a home". > > Thanks, > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:12:00 -0400 > From: Diane Marie Ward > Subject: Re: need some info > > The book Un homme grand : Jack Kerouac a la confluence des cultures= Jack > Kerouac at the crossroads of many cultures -- is available at the > University of Buffalo - we have 2 copies -- if you like (since I spend > most of my daylight hours working for > the Libraries) I can put you in touch with our Inter Library Loan Program > / or put you in touch with the Poetry Collection. Email me backchannel. > > Also, does anyone have an email address for John (J. W.) Curry in Toronto? > > > On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Michael Boughn wrote: > > > Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack > > Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time > > tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm > > specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: > > Writer without a home". > > > > Thanks, > > Mike > > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Diane Ward > dward@acsu.buffalo.edu > State University of New York at Buffalo > > THE AESTHETE'S LIST : http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dward/ > > "I dreamt I dwelt in marble halls, > And woke to find it true; > I wasn't born for an age like this; > Was Smith, Was Jones, Were you?" -- George Orwell written in 1935. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:44:13 EDT > From: Gale Nelson > Subject: Events in Providence > > The following events are planned for Providence in the coming weeks: > > Wed, 4 Sep. > Poetry readings by Maurice Scully (Dublin) and Tony Lopez (Devon) > 8:00 pm TF Green, Young Orchard Street, between Hope & Cook, East Side > > Thu, 5 Sep. > Performance work by MURMUR > 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) > > Tue, 10 Sep. > Mixed genre readings by Lori Baker (fiction) and Gale Nelson (poetry) > 7:00 pm Little Professor Book Center, N. Main Street > > Thu, 12 Sep. > Night of A Thousand and One Readings by the Graduate Students of Brown > Creative Writing > 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) > > Thu, 19 Sep. > Poetry reading by August Kleinzahler, visiting assoc. professor at Brown > 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) > > Thu, 26 Sep. > Fiction reading by Robert Coover > 8:00 pm TF Green (see above address) > > 1-5 Oct. > Unspeakable Practices III > A festival of vanguard narrative, organized by Robert Coover > Brown campus, various locations > > All events listed above are free and open to the public. All save the > Little Professor Book Center Reading are sponsored by Creative Writing, > Brown University. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:23:50 -0500 > From: Joe Amato > Subject: Re: interesting article on the web > > a few weeks back, chris funkhouser posted in about an article on the web > entitled > > "virtual whiteness and narrative diversity" > > by one joe lockard of uc/berkeley... > > just finished reading the piece, found it to be extremely interesting, and > i too recommend it to those of you with an interest in questions of > race/ethnicity and how critical discourse relating to these latter may be > brought to bear on cspace... > > again, at > > http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~heroux/uc4/4-lockard.html > > best, > > joe > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:26:37 -0500 > From: Christina Fairbank Chirot > Subject: Street-Art: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT" (fwd) > > This of much interest & concern--to be aware of. > > (fwd. dbchirot) > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > For Immediate Release: A.R.T.I.S.T. president Robert > Lederman's New Trial Date Set For 9/9/96 > > A new trial date has been set for Monday 9/9/96 Jury Part 1, > 5th floor 100 Centre Street, Criminal Court Bldg. 9:30 A.M. The > previously scheduled trial date of 7/30 was unexpectedly > adjourned when a roomful of print and T.V. journalists showed > up to cover the proceedings. Robert Lederman will be the first > N.Y.C. street artist brought to trial. The prosecuting the case is > D.A. David Jaffe. Judge Pickholtz is scheduled to hear the trial. > Lederman is represented by attorney and one-time prosecutor, > Marc Agnifilo (212) 768-7833. The defense has six > eyewitnesses to the illegal arrest prepared to testify. > > Since 1993 the City has handcuffed and arrested more than > 350 artists for displaying or selling their paintings on N.Y.C. > streets. While it has avoided prosecuting any artist's case, the > City continues to sell thousands of works of fine art it has > illegally confiscated at its monthly forfeiture auction at One > Police Plaza. D.A.'s and judges have begun publicly expressing > disapproval of the policy. > > Lederman is charged with Unlicensed General Vending and two > additional charges of Disorderly Conduct. Each charge carries a > possible three month sentence. This is an unusual case in that > the Disorderly Conduct charges as described by D.A. Jaffe at a > preliminary hearing involve nothing more than the defendant > handing out literature, holding up a protest sign that read, > "Stop Arresting Artists", photographing the police confiscating > another artists' work and handing out eight protest signs to > other artists present. These activities, as well as displaying art, > are fully protected by the First Amendment. Lederman has been > arrested twice before for distributing literature exposing the > City's artist arrest policy and numerous times while displaying > his art. > > At a preliminary hearing held on 6/27 prosecuting D.A. David > Jaffe told the presiding judge, "Robert Lederman has been > arrested 13 times. If we don't stop him this will only continue. > Before being arrested he handed out protest signs to the other > artists and they marched up and down. He's even displaying > photos of artists being arrested alongside his paintings." > > At that hearing the judge appeared predisposed to find > Lederman guilty regardless of the facts in the case. Lederman's > attorney was told he couldn't talk about the First Amendment. > The judge and D.A. didn't want the defense to enter > photographs taken at the arrest scene, which contradict the > police report, as evidence. The judge also denied the defense > the right to subpoena witnesses to testify on N.Y.C.'s vending > ordinance or to enter relevant testimony by City officials from > the ongoing street artist Federal suit, including the Corporation > Counsel's admission that artists, "...cannot obtain a Vending > License". [Lederman v. City of New York 94 civ. 7216 (MGC)]. > The Federal case is presently before the 2nd Circuit Federal > Appeals Court with a decision expected at any time. Numerous > museums, arts and legal rights groups, including the ACLU, The > Whitney and MOMA have joined the suit in support of the artist- > plaintiffs. > > Lederman is president of A.R.T.I.S.T. an advocacy group of over > 200 New York street artists. He has been an outspoken critic > of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's quality of life arrest policies and of > City Council Member Kathryn Freed. Freed is known to be a > motivating force behind the artist arrests and, according to the > N.Y. Times, is in Federal Court "..seeking to overturn > Constitutional protection for visual art". Observers believe this > Criminal Court trial is an attempt to intimidate artist activists. > > Recently, Lederman and other A.R.T.I.S.T. members distributed > a controversial leaflet at Criminal Court ("Why Plead Guilty?") > advising so-called "quality of life" defendants to not plead > guilty or accept plea bargaining arrangements and to demand > a trial. Members of the D.A.'s office, defense lawyers and > judges agreed with the leaflet, causing the Giuliani > administration considerable embarrassment. A number of > reporters claim they've been pressured by City officials and by > the NYPD not to continue covering the street artist issue. > > For more information or to receive a press kit contact > A.R.T.I.S.T. (718) 369-2111 E-mail ARTISTpres@aol.com > or visit the A.R.T.I.S.T. web page: > http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html > Photos of this and other artist arrests are available. > > References to this trial, artist arrests and related material can > be found in the following: > New York Times, Sunday July 14, 1996, City section pg 13, > lead story); "The War of Nerves Downtown; Kathryn Freed's War > of Nerves" [detailed expose of City Council Member Freed] > New York Times Magazine, Sunday July 14, 1996 pg. 8 The City > "It's a Quality, Quality Life" > Art In America, March 1996 pg. 128 "New Allies for Street > Artists" > New York Times Wednesday, January 24, 1996 Metro section > pg. B1 "Street Art: Free Speech or Just Stuff?" > New York Magazine, January 23, 1995 pg 16 "Among the > Artlaws" > Christian Science Monitor Thursday, July 14, 1994 pg. 11 "New > York Reins In Street Art" > Christian Science Monitor Wednesday, February 14, 1996 > "Conflict On the Street: Artists v. N.Y.C." > Time Out Magazine Feb 21-27 1996 pg. 18 "Peddle Pushers" > New York Amsterdam News Saturday, June 15, 1996 pg. 4 > "Artists To Sue Over First Amendment Right of Speech". > > > > --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:02:07 -0400 > From: Jordan Davis > Subject: > > CURRENT PRICE LIST from SUBPOETICS/POETRY CITY > > _Sea Lyrics_ by Lisa Jarnot $5 > _Western Love_ by Bill Luoma $5 > _Lapsis Linguae_ by Marcella Durand $5 > _Immediate Orgy & Audit_ by Ange Mlinko $5 > _August_ by Dan Bouchard (special issue of Compound Eye, ed. A. Mlinko) $1 > _Thunk_ by Kevin Davies $3 > _A Little Gold Book_ by Jordan Davis $5 > _Sincerity Loops_ by Steve Carll $5 > > and now... > > MASS AVE, ed. by Dan Bouchard $5 > since 1996 > Mass Ave has featured such writers as > Jawanza Ali Keita, Ange Mlinko, Jordan Davis, Renee Gladman, Chris > Stroffolino, David Baratier, Giovanni Singleton, Bill Luoma, Lisa Amber > Phillips, Beth Anderson, Meredith Quartermain, Steve Carll, Michael Leddy > and David Golumbia-- > > "the tightest > pants in heaven" > > > To order, send an email to jdavis@panix.com with your street address and > the books you need. Add $3 for first class shipping, orders over $25 add $0 > for shipping even though here in New York we have to take all of our > packages to the post office somebody with a tv let me know if the unabomber > movie is any good. > > Jordan Davis > 46 E 7 #10 > NYC 10003 > jdavis@panix.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:14:56 -0700 > From: George Bowering > Subject: Re: Kerouac > > >Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack > >Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time > >tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm > >specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: > >Writer without a home". > > > >Thanks, > >Mike > >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > > Mike, > > Yeah, the book is as you titled it. Edited by Pierre Anctil, Louis Dupont, > Remi Ferland and Eric Waddell. Published by carleton University Press, > 1990. It's proceedings from that Kerouac conference in Quebec.It is > distributed by Oxford, so shd be easily obtainable. Nicosia's piece is 20pp > long. > > > > > George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren > > de una yedra de s=EDlabras." > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > --Octavio Paz > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700 > From: Douglas Messerli > Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner > > Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine: > Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be > one of the major works in that special issue devoted to > the "theatrical" in lit. > > Douglas Messerli > > > At 10:11 PM 8/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > >james sherry writes: > >> Roof Books will publish Hannah's Weiner's <> this fall. I > >> will try to make a special offer to the list when the book becomes available. > > > >goody! in the meantime, where can i get "PAH" or PAW, that charles mentioned? > >> > >> Meanwhile, Maria, I wonder about your theory. The themes in Hannah's > >> writing don't seem to me to have much to do with holocaust. A list of > >> them would show late sixties tv and political issues, the fast, > >> lsd, family, friends, and isolation. Why not take her at her word? > > > >i'm not talking about thematics so much as effect; her writing as an effect of > >post-holocaust (Jewish) subjectivity. something like that. not trying to > >ferret out any subtext. still, thanks for the list of identifiable themes. > >> > >> The interest for me in Hannah's writing has always been her ability to > >> weave through inside and out without the usual membranes and transitions. > >> For Hannah much of what we call art comes quite easily to her once she > >> has put herself in a particular position, which I don't need to characterize. > > > >good point; i like stuff about weaving and membranes. > >> > >> Also see Maria Damon's essay in the new issue of <>: Hannah makes > >> a pure play at consciousness by mixing genres. Sometimes she succeeds and > >> the reader is pleased. > > > >interesting; what specific genres wd u say she mixes? > >> > >> James > >maria d > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:45:14 -0700 > From: jeffrey timmons > Subject: xxx/event: one > > xxx/event: one > > > they took over the campus at > arizona state university this week > 75,000 people coming for the supperbowl > corporate hospitality suites rise over the sacred > parking lots worshiped by high and low alike > classes were cancelled for two days > closed the library early > locked the doors completely to accomodate > stuporsunday > official souvenir vendor distribution sites for all > this splurf-fest capital guzzle feed-trough > greenback shower of the sports season > a soft-drink company (who will remain > anonymous so as not to endorse this product unwittingly) > will throw a party for students with hot dogs for sale > a local hemp spokesman says he will sell dope at the scupperbog > the economic wind fall for tempe phoenix > arizona will be > tremendous according to the saturation coverage by > the arizona republic(an) for the potential to "cash-in" > on the xxx/event > arizona state university is "bloated and > inefficient" > according to a republican govenor whos filed for > bankruptcy > budget cuts will likely lead to tuition raises while the > other two state schools will suffer no such cutbacks > the stutterbloff is on more peoples minds than the next > goverment shut-down > arizona state university students marched down > the main strip of tempe protesting the ironies of this > money-gozzling fleet-ditch diving city . . . > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 29 Aug 1996 to 30 Aug 1996 > ************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics Don Cheney has done some good work in this area. All of Catullus and 10 Propertius Odies. Don is a skilled prose writer, so in his hands you get a real nasty & hilarious narrative, as you get in Catullus & Propertius, but you also get great sound. Whereas in Zukofsky's homophones, eg, you for the most part just get great sound, with the nasty humors subordinate. Below are some Propertius Cheney's stolen from the web at: http://fuji.ucsd.edu/alfredo First Cynthia. First, your misery. I see the pit in your eyes and we don't hold each other after love. To me this constant deceit looms fast and it is impossible (dead) to press it: I love your feet. Do kiss me and do quit casting all these improbable women at me, I don't want your consolation. And I am totally furious that there's no deficit this year. I know you have God but I have adultery. Milanion knew the fugue would end and told the workers to say that you and I are aunts conducting a tour of the silo. Now, I'm in no Parthenonian mood to make amends for your aunt's errors. I bat and she always suits me up, fair as video. She and I are jalai percussionists. You'll hear the ramifications. Arcadia is sow city where dopey buses run the gamut. Scram you poor, crazy, domestic woman, love in tandem precedes you and is a valiant benefactor. In me, love is always late, not that you understand art. And now that you mention it I note that in a previous life I was angry at you. We quibbled about duck tape and lunar fallacies and worked in sacred, magic monasteries in a dumb age dominated by men who converted us and, face it pal, they were going to eat me or mince me. I think some of the credit goes to your side and almost all to the Cytae posse who belted out song after song. And you who never lapses into "Once In Love With Amy," I love you. Why this is right I can't say. Your breasts exhilarate for breasts and for rum your pate, myrrh and ignorance. I have liberty in the sit mode but why did you light and locate my anger? We're furtive for radical men and furtive for underwear. I won't write why your cat isn't female or why you bus to see your facile god's annual aura. Your parents always love to see us in a tutu. To me you are Venus, especially at night when we exercise our love. And no one you accuse has a temper to fit my love. In hock, no money. You and I are bad off, so when we have more money to cure our net assets will mutate into crazy love. But if the money is late it will be adieu to you, you who wants lots of references, you are...Bah! Oh, my money! Third The sea is calm and I quit seeing the singing dentist. Language deserts us. Knowledge (literally: "bus") is also calm. And accurate. I am liberal during "coitus andromeda". I am an assiduous necker, less than Eden but fess up, the chore is calm in her funny conceit. A pie doesn't know how tall you or I or the USA is. Hi Molly, I'm spiraling quietly. Cynthia, I'm not certain I can put the nix on so many kisses. I'm sober like many foreigners who used to say "banco!" and who rent Sarah at night. Face it boys, thank your egos not your dumb senses which everyone depends on. I impress Molly: "A condor is just a dire bull." And what music can only duplicate, my heart corrects. While you and I are bent over love or a book you tell me that God's uterus is the subject the thief posited. To tempt is to lacerate the eyes and admonitions of "so sue me and arm my hands" don't soothe your wounds. The air is dominant, the turbulence quiets 'em. Expert matrons, I urge you satiate, but my sick intentions fix my eyes on a harem (bam!). Arguments and ignorance in a kitty corner of the bus. And my only mode is our mode of front-wheel- drive Corollas. That pony is yours, Cynthia, temporarily. My mode lapses into gaudiness, for the mare's capillaries are not furtive because a pony is not a damn bus. Largely, everyone is an ingrate but some grate more. Money is always prone to violent scenes and quotients are rarely suspected of having motives. Obstinately you want the suspicious credit. You don't want to be insolent and you aren't. You are timid. Now which life are you in that you know to be yours? Don't die you ersatz procurer of hats from the moon. The moon is dead but you are illuminated. Compose it on a bus the radius of which can fake it on a cello. Molly, sit down and fix the torn cubicle. "We" refers to "you" in "tandem" in your lecture. If you alter the clauses will you be expelled and put on a bus? Not that you belong. Our consumation in the temporal night was languid and exact. Do I ride on the side of the bus? Oh you tease me at night with improbable tales from magazines. My misery always has you in it. I fall (bam!) on my somnolent stamina. The purpose is verses and I confess Orpheus sings lyrics. Enter the dumb thief. I come and a Gay bar is deserted. And outside is always the longest in the morass of love. And dumb me: "I can sop-up this lap, Sam, so pour impudent Alice a strawberry liqueur which ultimately will cure me." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Amber Phillips Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... Gabrielle-- I have a copy of "ladle rat rotten hut" on my office door at school, and I pass it out to my academic writing students as a "cautionary tale" against excessive dependence upon their word-processing spell checkers. I end up reading it in a sing-songy voice like the Swedish Chef from the muppets. Lisa Amber Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:50:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Swear word here! George Bowering added ("I have been instructed..."): > > >> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the > > >> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- > > >> > > > >> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed > > >> > > >> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was > > >> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little > > >> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. > > > > > >I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can > > >clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but > > >he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite > > >all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get > > >paid for the shoot? > > I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David > > Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon > > as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared > > against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some > > women's clothing in Washington. Peckham, Gass, Fairweather & Zukofsky Attorneys at Law September 3, 1996 Dear Mr. Bowering: It has come to our attention that you are making veiled threats to our client, Rachel Loden, using the cover of a Mr. David Bromige, a notorious carnival barker of uncertain national origin. We strongly advise you to refrain from further insinuations about Ms. Loden and the originality of her sonnet sequence, "Snorkling the Lotus." If we are unsuccessful in obtaining your cooperation, we may be forced to bring certain delicate matters to light. We are in particular most anxious to avoid any further mention of that sordid little contretemps with the cocktail hostess in Winnipeg. Need we go on? As for Mr. Wallace, we earnestly hope that he seeks counseling. Yours very sincerely, Roderick Slyme, Esq. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:04:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathrine Varnes Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... In-Reply-To: On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > Anyone know of "Ladle Rat Rotten Hut?" Not poetry but homophonic and > funny. gab. > > Yeah. W.D. Snodgrass has an essay in the Southern Review (?) all about > the importance of nonsense in poetry and pleasure. He talks at length > about Ladle Rat Rotten Hut and ties that to poetry. I don't have all > the details because I only borrowed a friend's copy, but it's a fun > essay -- many illustrations of this sort. ______________________ Kathrine Varnes kvarnes@udel.edu University of Delaware ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 11:09:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Sep 1996 to 2 Sep 1996 In-Reply-To: <199609030404.AAA04091@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I have a question for all my dear friends on this List: if, as Alan Golding reminded us in his paper, there isn't supposed to be a real divide between poetry and theory, if, as "linguistically innovative" writers have been saying for 20 years or more, genres are fluid, hybrid, etc etc., why is it that at "Assembling Alternatives" the critics were absolutely second-class citizens? The poets got to read for 20 minutes and give 20 minute papers; the critics and scholars got to give 20 minute papers, often in slots where there was no time for discussion. The poets are listed in the brochure, with pics and bios; the critics, all of whom paid their way to this conference (in my case over $1,000) were invisible in that regard. Do we then still believe in the secondariness of critical discourse? Would critics have been allowed to spend their 20 minute "papers" schmoozing about this and that as some of the poets who gave papers did? And if so, how is all this "linguistically innovative" discourse any different from the good old poetry festival attended by poets only? A second important issue which also relates back to the Orono conference: I think that when there's no time for discussion, as there wasn't here, really strange things happen. People will make authoritative statements that may in fact be just plain wrong. No one calls the person on it, no one takes up the issues--and there we are. Philip Mead came all the way from Australia for the conference, spoke for 20 minutes on the situation in Australian poetry which is fascinating and that was that. No questions, no responses. There were many exhilerating moments and wonderful readings and for those of us from the U.S. it was very exciting to meet (however briefly in the endless marathon) the British poets. But it remains wholly unclear to me who was allowed to read or perform, what makes some of the people who read or performed "linguistically innovative" or "alternative," and so on. I wonder if anyone else shares my frustration. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:12:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Assembling Alternatives ASSEMBLING ALTERNATIVES An international poetry conference/festival held at the University of New Hampshire, Durham 29 August-2 September, 1996 THE NEW ENGLAND CENTER sits like a nest into a boulder-spattered wooded hillside on the edge of the University of New Hampshire campus. "To assemble," "one or other of two," etc.=97-well, here it was: "Assembling Alternatives" sang like a bird=92s egg, snug in the downy center of its= forest loft. And what could be more to the point? Robbin=92 these words from all points of the compass! Like the Vancouver conference of last summer, this conference enjoyed not only splendid weather (made even more delicious by the impending=97though never arriving=97sledge hammer of hurricane Edouard= aka Hugo Ball rolling up the coast) but a similar (though not author-based) focus and an exhilarating sense of multi-Englished poetries. (Aussi avec un peu de Queb=E9coise!) For a brief few days, New England became New= Englishes, words falling ah from the clear blue skies. Unlike larger conferences (and the word "conference" shouldn=92t even be= used here) where words tend to sediment into a drone, Assembling Alternatives offered a gourmet feast of language leaping electrified across continents, seas, and islands. The talks were terrific, the readings offered one after another exemplar of how experimental writing (also sometimes called "linguistically-innovative" writing=97-among other terms) might propose itself=97and how also it might NOT be limited. Despite the wide range of pronunciations, dialects, sets of vernacular, tropes, themes, perspectives, and forms, Assembling Alternatives allowed a multi-voiced rendering of innovative language=97-languages that never once sat still nor relented on their challenge to the gourmet-fed, sleep-deprived, conversation-charged, tone-ecstatic, grammar-doubting assemblers. As I mentioned in the talk I gave-=97and this was completely= earnest=97-listing the linguistic predecessors to electronic poetries=97- Following World War II, the examination of system in Olson, Duncan and Blaser=92s serial works, Creeley=92s numeric determinations, Bernstein, Silliman, Grenier, Howe=92s radical typographies, the explorations of language by Maggie O=92Sullivan, Karen MacCormack, Joan Retallack, and Hannah Weiner=97and the work of all those listed in this conference program--and the alleatories of Mac Low and Cage point in different ways to various forms of nonlinearity that present in New Hampshire was a regiment of innovators that pointed in all these ways (as Gertrude Stein puts it: "a spectacle and nothing strange a single hurt color and an arrangement in a system to pointing.") There could hardly be a better assembly in this day and age to put forward what I wanted to say. It is hard to mention any specific participants (this is my point!) without doing disservice to the fact that the quality and strengths of nearly all of those present, were unveeringly strong. However, evening readings through the penultimate night alone offered the likes of Maggie O=92Sullivan, Kathleen Fraser, Ken Edwards, Joan Retallack, Tom Raworth, Pierre Joris, Leslie Scalapino, Allen Fisher, Catherine Walsh, Steve McCaffery, Robert Sheppard, Karen MacCormack, Charles Bernstein, Bob Perelman, Denise Riley, Abigail Child, Barrett Watten, and Nicole Brossard, among other great readers. What, beside this extraordinary talent, made the conference so useful? One fact was the significant presence of women poets. (Out of 39 evening slots, for example, 16 were occupied by women=97not yet representative but a sight better than most events.) Further, typically marginalized areas of working were brought straight onto the stage. One of these was performance poetry. The wide participation by performance poets was inspiring=97-and the final night=92s reading turned= out to be a state of the art f=EAte, gala, grand =85 FESTIVAL (after all, this word= was right on the conference program!) on how experimental poets might perform the word. In one evening, in a sticky Portsmouth theatre briefly stolen from the Rocky Horror Picture Show, performance/artists/poets such as David Bromige, Fiona Templeton, cris cheek, Paul Dutton, Caroline Bergvall, Hazel Smith, Christian B=F6k, and Se=E1n =D3hUig=EDn each took to the= brightly-colored, multi-leveled stage. Sound poets Dutton and B=F6k performed at the apex of sound poetry=92s possibilities. cris cheek provided a multi-voiced tour de force. Bergvall may=92ve stolen the show with her understated style, her poignant delivery, her arched body which seemed to act as a catapult hurling her taut, multileveled sensual incantations sizzling into the top rows of the Seacoast Repertory Theatre. Another marginalized area brought into the spotlight was witnessed by the inclusion of electronic media in the event=97-not only as a footnote but somewhat prominently. Though this was conference was not about electronic poetries let me congratulate Romana Huk for being one of the first to recognize, by including such a panel in the discussion of issues about innovative writing, that the formal issues about writing at the heart of experimental poetries ARE THE SAME ISSUES being explored by the literary electronic media. This is the first time I know that in a literary conference this kinship of language concerns has been addressed. This plenary session on electronic media included John Cayley, Jim Rosenberg, Chris Funkhouser, and me. The question period for this session was extremely animated. The main question: are the electronic media torturing the word by their hidden codes? Or are they providing tools to be used in an exploration of the possibilities of language? Though this matter wasn=92t brought to a final rest, the afternoon readings that day, which included poets working in electronic media (we got asterisks=97-my spell checker just suggested "ostriches" or "austerities" here=97-on the program!) certainly helped to suggest an answer to this question. This is perhaps a poet=92s perspective. Events such as this can always, in hindsight, be found to have shortcomings. But as a venue for listening to such poets reading and talking, the conference was an intense joy over too soon. And now? Many more books (and writing in other forms) to read. Edouard? Extratropical to the south of Nova Scotia, so says the National Hurricane Center. Thankfully, I still see pine trees and can now more vividly sense Irish intonations as I read... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: New Hampshire Briefs Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com a short report from an unprofessional New Hampshire conference crasher. I only saw events from Sat evening thru mon, so missed lots of good things. also missed lots of early morning stuff. apologies. I did buy Randolph Healy's book 25 Poems (from the Beau Booklet Series) (16a Ballyman Road / Bray, County Wicklow / Republic of Ireland / $10) and love it. Readings that stuck with me: Paul Dutton, mercury. Deanna Ferguson, good sparse. Lisa Robertson, repeating amazon over & over. Miles Champion, 5 words at once. Chris Stroffolino, eyes rolled back in head. Hazel Smith, backwards. Juliana Spahr, wanting to go to the beach. I enjoyed the drive up with Tony Door because an '81 80 Langston Street tape of Berrigan's sonnets magically appeared in my mailbox on friday afternoon along with The basement tapes thank you anonymous donor, stopping in Boston friday night & sleeping on the floor of a studio apt with 5 others then having breakfast with Dan Bouchard Ange Mlinko Joe Torra and the twins, trading books, Margy Sloan with a streak in her hair saying that women usually asked her about her rings, chris cheek (who looks like mephistopheles according to JJ Moxley) walking up to Marjorie Perloff during his talk gyrating his hands and saying I am exciting the molecules in front of your face and you will breathe them in and be affected, trying to talk Paul Dutton out of his disillusionment with baseball, Miles Champion who reads faster than Tom Raworth, seeing Jim Rosenberg's screen of overlapping words & realizing it to be a representation of Miles Champion's tonal clusters yes I find hearing Miles Champion read not to be a diachronic event, Juliana Spahr saying there were three poems with monkey penises tonight, Peter Culley saying well what would Ted Berrigan do, meeting John Wilkinson who really saw the marginalization of Rodefer and we thought maybe Rodefern gets more popular in the uk and then Helen Vendler discovers him, sleeping on the floor of Miles Champion's & Peter Gizzi's motel room & yakety yak, watching the weather channel hysteria of eduardo, Lisa Robertson and the tie question (shorter is better), Tony Door tying it short the wife's job, Charles Bernstein drawing a graph of his educational riser on the chalk board in the bar (slope=4.7) while he told the story of how Clayton Eshelman once gave me an F in Vallejo/Artaud, The Q & A session: Q. Where are the brits? A. In the bar, drinking scotch with my friends and sitting on the ground at 2:30 in the morning, Tom Raworth wanting a pizza, Deanna Ferguson poking Bob Perelman in the chest repeatedly and saying you're more macho than Bruce Andrews, that's pronounced matcho for all you yanks, asking directions in a car from a local old guy and riffing with Steve McCaffery, Miles Champion, Tony Door, & Karen MacCormack: take the spaul pspsauld sp shc sh shpalll sp scshpaulding turnpike, Romana Huk being gracious and doing a great job, Fiona Templeton taking the skirt off the plenary session table, Steve McCaffery wanting to install trousers on its the exposed legs, noting that the daughters of albion took their breakfast together, Barrett Watten saying Eliot was most British when a) he was refusing to incorporate popular culture into his pomes or b) not having sex, Tony Lopez calling Barrett Watten ignorant & Barrett Watten saying he didn't appreciate being addressed in that manner, Billy Miles saying he's sick of americanocentrism, wondering about the assumed center of language poets in the "experimental community," Tony Door saying he always thought experimental meant like Jackson Jackson and that l-poets weren't experimental in a scientific sense, Barrett Watten saying his first degree was in science & usually people criticise him & camp as being too lab coaty oh and Joan Retallack is rigorous, lots of folks wondering where the people of color were, hearing only two men showed up to my panel which was composed of women, writing a Jeff Derksen poem on the drive home with Peter Culley Lee Ann Brown & Tony Door, I smell interstate. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... Thanks Don, for correcting that. I was think, of course, of MEN IN AIDA, but pulled my copy of PCOET instead. Douglas At 03:44 PM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >is PCOET a homophonic translation? or were you thinking > of melnick's MEN IN AIDA? > > doncheney > dcheney@ucsd.edu > >You might also be interested in David Melnick's PCOET >and in my own poem, "A Vector of the Straddle," a completely >sound-rhymed poem from Donne. > >Douglas Messerli > > >At 07:33 AM 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >>>i'm looking for references to poems &/or poets using "homphonic >>>translations"--th process ov "translating" texts from another >>>language by substituting similar-sounding english words... as >>>this: >> >>Several that come quickly to mind are: >> >>Louis (& Celia) Zukofsky's translation of the complete Catullus. The >>opening of Louis (only, I think) Zukofsky's "A"-14 is a homophoic >>translation of selections from the Book of Job. Six Fillious by, >>collectively, bp Nichol, Steve McCaffery, Dick Higgins, Robert Filliou, >>George Brecht, and Dieter Roth is made up of various homophonic >>translations of Filliou's 14 Chansons et 1 Charade (published by Membrane >>Press). I think one of the translations in Nichol's Translating Translating >>Apollinaire is also homophonic as are several and in general there is a >>kind of homophonic tendency that comes and goes in Nichol's work including >>homophonic English trnalations of English original texts and words. I >>remember that several Harry Mathews and Charles Bernstein poems being >>identified as homophonic but I don't recall which ones. >> >>I'm sure there are lots of others I'm forgetting & way more that I never >>knew about. >> >>Bests >> >>Herb >> >> >>Herb Levy >>herb@eskimo.com >> > > >>-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >>Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id JAA19303 sendmail >>Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7. >>Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV release >>Received: from UBVM (NJE origin SMTP@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail >>Received: from hollywood.cinenet.net by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) >>Received: from ppp83.cinenet.net by hollywood.cinenet.net with SMTP (8 >>X-Sender: djmess@cinenet.net >>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; chars >>Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960902080017.1 >>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:25:23 -0700 >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Douglas Messerli >>Subject: Re: homophonic translation/translitics... >>To: Mul > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:56:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Homophonic translations Yes, Ron, and it's still one of favorite poems. Douglas Messerli At 03:34 AM 9/3/96 -0700, you wrote: >Luigi-B., > >My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF >Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins: > >Where >when itch scree >hurt as much? > >Then how's their angle >or known gun? > >Honky sets selves, >his name a eye nor much. > >Plows lick answers: >each fucking a fun sign-in, >starker in design. >Dent is seen as niche.... > >(and so forth for seven long pages in that old Roof 8.5 x 11 format). >It was a piece I started circa '71 and worked on sporadically for >several years before I began to be satisfied with it. > >I believe that somebody (Robert Kelly?) at one point a few years back >was trying to put together an anthology of such translations, but I >don't think anything ever came of the effort. > >All best, > >Ron Silliman > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:41:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: Post-Labor Day In honor of the exotic dancers in S.F. who just voted to unionize their workplace, I'd like to contribute an excerpt from Joan Jobe Smith's poem "Intimacy" from her book Jehovah Jukebox about working as a go-go dancer: We were Delilah, Salome, Jane Avril, and Gypsy Rose Lee. We knew what happened to Samson's hair, the Baptists's head, why Toulouse longed for absinthe, and who was the real father of the child in our wombs. We knew the original looney tunes, and go-go steps danced in the Cro-Magnon caves by moonlight ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:45:14 +0000 Reply-To: Robert.T.Archambeau.2@nd.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Sep 1996 to 2 Sep 1996 I understand Marjorie Perloff's frustration about the lack of time for discussion at the New Hampshire poetry conference/festival: the best discussions I had there were informal and private, and I feel that many of the most interesting questions didn't get asked in a public forum. But to some degree at least I think those who came as critics (a group in which I include myself) were responsible for this state of affairs: I noticed that people tended to go over the allotted time limit, even when they skipped passages of the essay that they'd come to read. Had all of the papers actually _been_ 20 minutes long, there would have been time to start some interesting discussions. As far as the question of the status of critics goes, Marjorie raises an interesting point. Although I have nothing to complain about personally (I had the opening slot on the first plenary session) the critics did only get to speak once, and the poets tended to both address critical issues and to read from or perform their work. There is a bit of a conundrum here, though: if poets are restricted to only one activity, we are deprived of the "poet's prose" that can often be so valuable, especially with experimental work; if critics are allowed to read twice in order to receive as much attention as poets, conference schedules will be even more crowded than they already are, and there will be even less time for discussion. The real solution, of course, would be to have longer conferences, but who has the funding (or the time)? All that aside, I look at my schedule from New Hampshire and realize that it was a miracle that this conference came into being, and think that Romana Huk deserves our thanks for pulling it all together. --Robert Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:21:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Wilson Subject: The Herman Review Comments: To: CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu, e-grad@listproc.bgsu.edu Some of you may be familiar with The Herman Review published by Rick Bursky in Los Angeles. The journal has featured both well known and less known poets. Bursky is interested in the best writing he can find, no matter who it comes from. For a variety of personal reasons, Rick is considering stopping publication. He had assembled all the material for the No. 3 when circumstances arose that may force him to abandon the project if not forever than for a long, long time. I believe Rick Bursky would welcome expressions of support, written or financial. Please do NOT take this as a solicitation. Small magazines, unaffiliated with a publishing house or an academic sponsor have a rough time of it. If nothing else, I think Rick Bursky needs to hear that his journal has value and that it would be a shame for it to cease publication. Rick Bursky can be reached at BURONE@AOL.COM Ian Wilson Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles iwilson@mgmua.com http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/ian1.htm http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/story/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:37:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: cocktail waitress >George Bowering added ("I have been instructed..."): > >> > >> >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it >>wasn't the >> > >> >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- >> > >> > >> > >> >Gwyn, tres embarrassed >> > >> >> > >> That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, >>it was >> > >> hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a >>little >> > >> like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. >> > > >> > >I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can >> > >clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but >> > >he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite >> > >all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get >> > >paid for the shoot? > >> > I have been instructed by my old friend and present co-author Mr David >> > Bromige to tell you that his lawyer will be in touch with you, just as soon >> > as he has finished compiling his information for the suit he has prepared >> > against a Mr Wallace, who apparently was a little careless with some >> > women's clothing in Washington. > > > Peckham, Gass, Fairweather & Zukofsky > Attorneys at Law > > September 3, 1996 > >Dear Mr. Bowering: > >It has come to our attention that you are making veiled threats to our >client, Rachel Loden, using the cover of a Mr. David Bromige, a >notorious carnival barker of uncertain national origin. We strongly >advise you to refrain from further insinuations about Ms. Loden and >the originality of her sonnet sequence, "Snorkling the Lotus." If >we are unsuccessful in obtaining your cooperation, we may be forced >to bring certain delicate matters to light. We are in particular most >anxious to avoid any further mention of that sordid little contretemps >with the cocktail hostess in Winnipeg. Need we go on? > >As for Mr. Wallace, we earnestly hope that he seeks counseling. > >Yours very sincerely, > >Roderick Slyme, Esq. That little slattern! She promised me that she would not breathe a thing to a soul. Okay, Okay, I take it back. And I think that I can speak for mr. Bromige. I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her eyes turned up when she showed it to me. George Bowering. "I sit inside the blond before you" 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:37:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Homophonic translations >Luigi-B., > >My one attempt at homophonic translation was published in the "SF >Forum" of ROOF 5 (winter 78) as "Do We Know Ella Cheese?" It begins: I also did some of that stuff in _Allophanes_ George Bowering. "I sit inside the blond before you" 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Anne Waldman fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:48:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: DEATH OF THE LANGUAGE POET DEATH OF THE LANGUAGE POET to the tune of "erie canal" It was 40 miles from Albany forget it I never shall (or was it Buffalo? or - Orono?) he was driving like hell through the Dutch foothills in Dutch. The night was fauogued, dark,cloodie. Nedertlandisch. He was thinking to hisself: "raw puddle strudle chip fart blague m'gosh". Swerved to avade a mere lil bunny rabbit - into the right lane! The wrong right lane - the left lane... Cops to the right of 'im - cops to the left of 'im hollered and thundered. Stormed at with shot & shell (fergit it me never shall) he pulls over. Officer Les Strudel - in hip boots. "Drivers License." Lou Paul (Langpo): "Skid works the road flip fear squirt." Les steps back apace. "OK fella - step outa the car, slowly." Lou climbs out meekly (wearin his collegiate apron Two bars of community service demi-denim & blue loafers) Les: "Feelin alright?" Lou: "Brit band-aid" Les: "Bump yr head er something?" Lou: Egg fool neal viper young no-head!" Les: Now don't get rowdy - where you headed? Lou: Squeeze chip le autre genes warpo trammel hide bucket frisbee..." [mumbling, reaches for conference paper. Les "freaks" FREAKS f*r*e*a8l.n >AKje draws. Fires. Lou falls, South Dakota. Presses lettres to litter atcher atch atchoo agghhhhhh......[sound of archived papers fading into futurity]] Les: I didn't mean to... Lou: I'm not really....[sighs] Dad. I am an... AUTHOR. [fade-out] Je suisse.. [brit music. french kisses. American Flag.] The Boy Scouts washed his body off the turnpike with Pan T-Hose and D-Odiferrance-Defungt... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:16:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: my two senses Dear all--to those of you who were in New Hampshire, it was delightful meeting you again or for the first time. Best to Romana, who did an absolutely terrific job. A few comments, following Marjorie Perloff, if not exactly on the same subjects, and perhaps too autobiocritical: --I felt least at home toward the beginning of the conference when I encountered utter culture shock moving from a place (Hawai'i) where Caucasians are a minority to a place (the conf) where there was hardly anyone else and I had the sense that differences were being hidden under a rhetoric of assembling samenesses; --I felt most at home at the end of the last panel during the postcolonial moment (this was when the culture shock wore off quickly!) when suddenly the Welshman was chiding the Englishman for colonizing the concept of "bard" and the Irishman was critiquing the American poets for being provincial and the Australians were silent perhaps because they were not even on the billing, though Phillip Mead and Ann Vickery and Hazel Smith were very much in attendance and participating brilliantly, and I felt compelled to make trouble about the lack of multicultural input from my peripheral perspective in mid-Pacific (actually, I'm now in New York state, but no matter, I'm still jetlagged by several hours). --This reminded me of local Asian American writers in Hawai'i telling mainland white writers and critics that they didn't know enough about Hawai'i and were getting things so very wrong. It reminded me of Hawaiian writers and critics telling both local Asian writers and mainland haoles that they were appropriating the place for their own interests. It was so damn contentious that I felt right back at home. --So I'm glad we met and listened to too much stuff and looked at pictures of some poets and heard critics through the interstices (cf. Marjorie P). And I'm actually glad that we fought a bit. --In response to something Steve Evans, whose work I greatly admire, said to me. No, I don't think that I was assuming that this conference as normative and that we should invite others to participate in it. Rather, I think we should change the entire rhetoric of our "alternative" conferences to include--in a REAL sense--writers who are not white and who are marginalized in very different ways from Language writers--marginalized by class and language and race, rather than by position or stance, such that a genuine and noisy dialogue would ensue. How's about Language writers (we all know their names!) and Hagedorn and Yamanaka and LKJ and Brathwaite and Barry Masuda (a former student and wonderful local/Language writer) and others and others all together under one hothouse roof?? This involves more than just inviting people. It involves re-figuring our rhetoric about ourselves a bit. And it would be exciting--to cite just one imagined example--to see cris cheek perform with a dub poet and to hear the music of what happened (to quote a name much hissed at). --This is where I admired Bob Perelman's brief plea for intelligibility. Yes, the poetry should be, can be, as unintelligible as possible. But the explanations need to be there and be good. In my classrooms the explanations are rewarded with some interest. Otherwise, any Language writer, no matter how revolutionary and subversive her rhetoric is "just another white guy" in Hawai'i--or other places off the beaten monocultural track--and will not get noticed except as another imperial presence. Ten people, all of them lobbied frenetically, will show up to her reading in a large auditorium, because they've already seen, or think they've seen, too many such "white guys" before. Unless that engagement is entered into, and shouted about, certain assumptions, which are often untrue, will govern. This is not a sell out, but a possible connection with writers who are doing similar, if different (of course!) projects, and who would not be reached or reach "us" without the effort. --My aol bill is increasing geometrically! A fond good bye to all. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:33:29 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Sun&Moon Sorry to ask this over the list. Could someone Sun & Moon email me, i have lost the address & need to discuss an account. Thanks, Dan Salmon. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:41:15 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Re: Homophonic translations I just wanted to address the word "translation" in this phrase "homophonic translations": 1) Is there an attempt to bring in an idiom that brings over the author translated; ie what that author might have done in our language environments and culture environments? 2) Is there an attempt to bring in a (translated) author whose presence in modern idiom is rebarbative, disruptive, *not* hip and modern, as a corrective to modern idiom, eg T.S. Eliot? 3) Is homophonic translation an excuse for a poet with a rampant ego (like Zukofsky - see Mary Oppen's memoir in her Meaning A Life) to riff off the original, perhaps as if thus an equal, without actually measuring up? Does it take some of the reflected glory of say Catullus, the Establishment glow? 3-B) If it is "play", when we play as adults shouldn't it be different from playing as a child - since we cannot pretend to a child's lack of understanding of ramifications, except as a forcefully asserted imitation child persona? Whose play is that? How enjoyable for those others in one's circle? 4) How often is homophonic translation what it might say it's trying to be: a more modest attempt to enter the cultural negotiation between readers in an Establishment and writers who have been canonised into an Establishment? Who do not necessarily belong there and/or are not particularly there for themselves but actually as a culturally representative lab specimen in a lab which neither understands the culture nor "its" "specimens"? 5) How often is such translation a kind of Johnny Rotten type punk (ie High Modernist, though not, interestingly for the great 20th century translator, Poundian) hatred of the past, and puerile yaa boo sucks to the repressed patricians who need to lighten up (or as Barrett Watten is reported, not much less puerilely to have said at New Hampshire, about Eliot) or get more sex, without fully addressing one's envy, one's desire to have the same (actually skilfully & heroically, sometimes, achieved) poetic appeal? 6) And what kind of language permission is there, esp for an experimental poet, to use more politically incorrect diction and old-fashioned "patriarchal" wistful lyrical cadences, under the guise of doing it only ironically? 7) Can the pure homophonic pleasure, of attempting to produce a similar sound and surface to one's original, help one to do some translation which incorporates a good homophonic ear but also seems to respect the author and the author's content? This seems to be to what Derrida does when he writes through (and in imitation of, but also going off at lateral tangents to) Ponge, Genet, Heidegger, Hegel etc? I haven't seen too many examples of 1, 2 or 7. Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:02:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Assembling Alternatives I write in a state of exhaustion & jetlag, so forgive me. New Hampshire was quite overwhelming, and I share the sense of excitement in Loss Glazier's and Bill Luoma's posts. In reply to Marjorie, with the greatest respect to her and her critical kindred (and I was very pleased to meet her for the first time -- her energy & erudition reminded me somewhat of the late Eric Mottram, whose irascible shade I felt hovered over New Hampshire like that hurricane that never arrived): I was glad to be part of an event in the academy in which poets prevailed. Speaking for myself, I would not have been able to attend if I hadn't had financial assistance from the conference -- thanks, Romana. It was right that poets without access to the institutional support of the academy should have been helped in this way, and that they were the focus of the event (embarrassing as those pics in the brochure were!). I too was sorry that Philip Mead's excellent paper on the Australian scene provoked no discussion, but perhaps this was not unconnected with the fact that there were no Australian poets present, so it was decontextualised. I think some of Marjorie's points are answered quite well by Robert Archambeau, so I won't take any more space here. My only beef about the panel sessions was that people tended to turn up to those panels addressing subjects they already knew, rather than seeking out, um, alternatives. (I am amazed that anyone at all turned up at 8.30 in the morning to my own talk on British small presses, but disappointed they were mostly Brits who knew it all backwards anyway.) Revelations for me (here I disregard the British contingent, and others whose acts I already know & love): Lisa Robertson's fierce intellectual girlishness, Leslie Scalapino's spine-chillingly wonderful voice, Rae Armantrout's humour, Abigail Child (including such of her films I managed to catch), Christian Bok's virtuoso vocals. There was an unfortunate sense that the afternoon readings were second-billing to the evenings, and I wish I'd caught more than the last five minutes of Jeff Derksen; I also enjoyed Lee Ann Brown, Peter Gizzi, Deanna Ferguson, Juliana Spahr and Chris Stroffolino, among others. The strong showing by women poets and critics has been mentioned. Good to see an Irish contingent, and Maurice Scully in particular was as great as always, but the older Irishmen seemed strangely out of place here. I'm sad it's all over, looking forward to the book and the video, a little more hopeful that national barriers are coming down. The difficulties and shortcomings are hugely outweighed by the thanks we owe Romana Huk for this extraordinary thing happening at all. Ken Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:25:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Ross Subject: Re: New from Buck Downs Books In-Reply-To: <199607250233.CAA05667@pipe4.ny1.usa.pipeline.com> A Must Have . . Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner Poems by Mark Wallace Prints by Lawley Paisley-Jones Orders to: Buck Downs Books P.O. Box 50376 Washington, D.C. 20091 ($9.00) "The road to wisdom / has lots of stores and restaurants" Mark Wallace's wonderfully sharp, self reflexive, and darkly humorous sonnets are wisdom teeth stolen from the golden mouths of metaphysical husksters, penny-a-line journalists, late 20th century loners, liars, and poetic hit-men. Death and the double keep Wallace company on his forays into the tumultuous twister of the American psyche. Whether playing a ghostly stranger from a Burrough's cut-up or a Kafkasque desk clerk "chopping off fingers and facts," Wallace is always the witty, wandering versifier behind the dry jibe and existential stool. His poems and essays have played a major role in helping to define what has become post "language" poetry. -Charles Borkhuis In this new collection of poems, Mark Wallace shows that the obstensible strictures of the sonnet form can be liberating, can be an enabling constraint allowing the thought to branch and scan. A distinct sensiblity emerges here, one that is preoccupied with a past that interweaves with the inexplicable details of daily living, and which struggles with the effort to establish human connection against the odds of indifference and unthinking reflex. Rounding out the words are Lawley Paisley-Jones's highly evocative digitized images. -Daniel Barbiero Mark Wallace creates a poetics of paradoxes. The reader is stunned by the sheer intelligence of it, yet there is warmth and an almost frightening vulnerability. Mark Wallace is a visionary who refuses to deny what he sees. His poems are sensitive and important. -Susan Smith Nash from: Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner $1.54 Poetry doesn't care who loves it warehouses howl of debris, random fetters of work, business seizes ground Who could possibly be superior when countries are filled with all they don't know Whoever comes forward to take the mantle in the history of kings is a fool and I hate them Stand me in my house Stun me to know where art is a prison A graver stain is in the blood then who will be the next and latest greatest thing I'll drink to complaint and go on plying trade turned to a wing, above this boat, to fly so not to float ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:26:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:02:03 EDT from <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Still too sleep-deprived to wash off the gallon of coffee I just poured over my head, so a longer post will have to wait, if it's forthcoming at all, but here's a few brief remarks regarding NH: 1) You were there (or weren't) the day that "language poetry" died its most public death. But it was already dead. Now that Frankenstein has been put to rest, the question is whenceforth,and I expect that "language poets" will--as they have begun to--provide SOME of the most provocative suggestions and examples. 2) Marjorie Perloff has been slugging it out on behalf of SOME of the most vital work (in the US) for years in the crucial site (cf. my conference remarks) of the academy. She was the only academic critic of her gerneration at the conference and deserved more time. Money is another matter: Mills and Catherine Walsh both work part-time in Dublin. Etc. etc. 3) American self-absorption and provincialism has been and is a problem (cf. my conference remarks). But anti-american sentiments have been (and are) a problem too. All of these things have a history: "americanocentrism" (what a word) is an abstraction. The whence now question involves a thinking-through of the problems of distribution. Allen Fisher, cris cheek, Peter Middleton, Trevor Joyce, Alan Golding, and the zombie now typing had hoped to initiate a public discussion of possible SOLUTIONS to these but the crush of events prevented it. This here little list might take up such a discussion. Or it can whine about this and that. 4) Everybody (I hope) knows we have to rethink "alternative" with more attention to ethnic, regional, class, and racial particularities. But we also have to reconsider its value in group formation (cf Peter Middleton), audience- building and poetic practice (cf. Perelman), and political praxis (cf. Watten). Charles Simic was at several of the readings. Tapes should be sold cheap to Helen Vendler, who has now (almost I'm told) managed to acknowledge Mina Loy. 5) Re #3 above: not only distribution but critical and institutional practice vis-a-vis poetry and poetics. 6) Open-panel discussions with poets and critics, more public space, mats for free-style wrestling. But Romana Huk deserves a medal, if she hasn't already won one in long-distance running. 7) More coffee please and some of those sour grapes. Numbers 8-1997 forthcoming asap. Hello again Saddam! Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: my two senses i appreciate susan schultz's comments. even tho i wasn't there an NH, the matters she brings up are ones that are not limited to that conference but extend to this "scene" in which i've found myself a happy and (as far as i can tell) respected player (i never thot i'd be here; it's been wonderful to have interlocutors). don't get me wrong, i enjoy the list, the scene, the folks. but we're not as eclectic as i'd like us to be; not as inclusive (and i don't mean that in the grande-geste patronizing piety of much "multiculturalism") etc etc...well y'all know what i mean, i won't go on and on...just came back from sf it was grand so maybe i shd lay low a coupla daze before blasting back onto the list; saw dbkk, steve carll, charles smith (thanks for coming all that way, charles), norma cole, mpalmer, kush, whom i haven't seen since shortly after kaufman's death, jay schwarz (are you on yet jay?), some stein fans i didn't know, beverley dahlen bob gluck mostly folks i was meeting for the first time. anyway, it was fun and so i shdn't come back blasting off. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives In-Reply-To: Message of 09/04/96 at 09:26:26 from KWTUMA@MIAMIU.MUOHIO.EDU More New Hampshire post-mortem: I don't think I share Marjorie's sense of grievance at critics being treated like second-class citizens at "AA." Frankly I was happy enough to hear from the poets twice over; their talks & readings were information-rich even when they didn't succeed particularly well. But I second Marjorie's complaint about the lack of discussion-time. Not only did good papers not get the responses they'd earned, but also people didn't get called often enough on statements they ought to have been called on. An example: at least twice, speakers casually knocked ethnopoetics, & there was no opportunity to demand that they explain/justify themselves. Well, we all know that ethnopoetics was benighted -- racist -- neocolonialist -- primitivist -- don't we? It sure is lucky that we're enlightened now .... I find it amaz- ing that with all the constant chatter about historicizing this & historicizing that we're (first-person plural to spread the blame around) still ready & will- ing to apply present standards a-historically to past moments. (Retrosepctive self-righteousness is one of my favorite attitudes.) Not that we shoudn't judge the past. But a little fairness, please: remember that the ethnopoetics project changed over time, & that its practitioners cor- rected or repudiated earlier missteps; remember how valuable the whole project was in expanding our collective sense of what "poetry" could be, of what "con- temporary" could mean, etc. In short: without the contribution of ethnopoetics (among many other things) we wouldn't be in the position now to criticize retro spectively the benighted neocolonialism, primitivism, etc. of ethnopoetics.Pity the poor ladder: folks use it to climb, then just kick it away.... End of ser- mon. Apart from that, "AA" was a gas. All honor to Romana Huk. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:42:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Sun&Moon Our E-mail address is djmess@sunmoon.com Our website, from which you can also E-mail us is: htt;://www.sunmoon.com At 05:33 PM 9/4/96 +1200, you wrote: >Sorry to ask this over the list. > >Could someone Sun & Moon email me, i have lost the address & need to discuss >an account. > >Thanks, > >Dan Salmon. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:52:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: translations/transcriptions For some of the reasons addressed here, i've often considered "transcription" a better term for this practice -- especially in the musical sense of *an arrangement for a different instrument* -- but also perhaps as a phonetic transcription, in which English serves as the "phonetic alphabet" into which the original is transcribed. bmarsh At 10:41 AM 9/4/96 BST, you wrote: >I just wanted to address the word "translation" >in this phrase "homophonic translations": > >1) Is there an attempt to bring in an idiom >that brings over the author translated; ie what >that author might have done in our >language environments and culture environments? > >2) Is there an attempt to bring in a >(translated) author whose presence in modern >idiom is rebarbative, disruptive, >*not* hip and modern, as a corrective to >modern idiom, eg T.S. Eliot? > >3) Is homophonic translation an excuse for >a poet with a rampant ego (like Zukofsky - >see Mary Oppen's memoir in her Meaning A Life) >to riff off the original, perhaps as if thus >an equal, without actually measuring up? >Does it take some of the reflected glory >of say Catullus, the Establishment glow? > >3-B) If it is "play", when we play as adults >shouldn't it be different from playing as a >child - since we cannot pretend to a child's >lack of understanding of ramifications, >except as a forcefully asserted imitation >child persona? Whose play is that? How >enjoyable for those others in one's circle? > >4) How often is homophonic translation what it >might say it's trying to be: a more modest >attempt to enter the cultural negotiation >between readers in an Establishment and writers >who have been canonised into an Establishment? >Who do not necessarily belong there and/or are >not particularly there for themselves but >actually as a culturally representative >lab specimen in a lab which neither understands >the culture nor "its" "specimens"? > >5) How often is such translation a kind of >Johnny Rotten type punk (ie High Modernist, >though not, interestingly for the great >20th century translator, Poundian) hatred >of the past, and puerile yaa boo sucks to >the repressed patricians who need to lighten >up (or as Barrett Watten is reported, not much >less puerilely to have said at New Hampshire, >about Eliot) or get more sex, without fully >addressing one's envy, one's desire to have >the same (actually skilfully & heroically, >sometimes, achieved) poetic appeal? > >6) And what kind of language permission is >there, esp for an experimental poet, to use >more politically incorrect diction and old-fashioned >"patriarchal" wistful lyrical cadences, under the >guise of doing it only ironically? > >7) Can the pure homophonic pleasure, of attempting >to produce a similar sound and surface to one's >original, help one to do some translation which >incorporates a good homophonic ear but also >seems to respect the author and the author's >content? This seems to be to what Derrida does >when he writes through (and in imitation of, >but also going off at lateral tangents to) >Ponge, Genet, Heidegger, Hegel etc? > > >I haven't seen too many examples of 1, 2 or 7. > > > >Ira Lightman > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:02:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: pasta point of no return Dear Ms. Loden and others: My lawyers have counselled me to say that I am not responsible for any cyber replicas bearing my features and claiming to be me. Although I did participate in early stages of the CIA cloning project, I quickly saw that the goals of the program were not, in fact, to make me more available, but instead to undermine my public image as a wearer of only the finest pastas. Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project. BEWARE ALL CLONES! Sincerely, Mark Wallace (as represented by Reznikoff and Stephens) /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | | to go to extremes" | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:14:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference In-Reply-To: <960903225141_300792375@emout09.mail.aol.com> Hi all-- I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help (posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!! Thanks. Julie Schmid University of Iowa jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jean Crown Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference In-Reply-To: Julie Marie Schmid "Re: query re. public poetry conference" (Sep 4, 3:14pm) Hi Julie: "Poetry and the Public Sphere," a conference on contemporary poetry, will take place next April 24-27 at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ. (I just received your letter and was about to reply when I got your incoming poetics message). The interdisciplinary conference aims to provide new understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The conference will feature poetry readings and performances and panel presentations by a wide range of poets, scholars, and activists, including Adrienne Rich, Miguel Algarin, and Robert Hass. Although not named here, many other poets and scholars will be invited. The planning is in its final stages and a Call for Papers listing participants will go out in the next few weeks. We invite paper proposals on topics including but not limited to the following: poetry and social movements politics of form African American poetry poetry and public sphere theory poetry and popular culture feminist poetry poetics of performance poetry poetry as witness Native American poetry poetry and identity politics global poetries Asian American poetry contemporary poetry cultures poetry slams Latino/a poetry poetry and/as history spoken word events poetry and AIDS rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing In the meantime, you may send detailed two-page paper proposals by November 1, 1996 to: Harriet Davidson Associate Professor of English Director of Women's Studies P.O. Box 5054 Rutgers University--New Brunswick New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054 You may send inquiries to the conference coordinators: Kathleen Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) and Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). This is a very preliminary announcement; I will send a more detailed announcement to the Poetics List very soon. All best, Kathleen Crown PS: We are following the discussion of the New Hampshire conference as we plan ours--thanks to those who provided reports on the happenings. On Sep 4, 3:14pm, Julie Marie Schmid wrote: > Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference > Hi all-- > > I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries > conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out > there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help > (posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!! > > Thanks. > > Julie Schmid > University of Iowa > jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu >-- End of excerpt from Julie Marie Schmid -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: query re. public poetry conference yeah, contact kathleen crown, a grad student at rutgers english dept, or elliott katz, also a gr-stud same dept. bests, maria In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Hi all-- > > I've been trying to track down information regarding the public poetries > conference at Rutgers this spring, but to no avail. Does anyone out > there have information re. who to contact, deadlines, etc.? Any help > (posted to list or backchanneled) will be much appreciated!! > > Thanks. > > Julie Schmid > University of Iowa > jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:43:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: fwd From: Center for Advanced Feminist Studies Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:42:18 -0500 To: Multiple recipients of list CAFS-F2 Subject: New Listserv Subject: A New Electronic Discussion List on European Women's Stu From: ezekiel@univ-paris12.fr (Judith Ezekiel) We are happy to announce the launch of a new electronic discussion list: WISE-L. WISE-L is a list for all practitioners of women's studies: teachers, students, scholars, writers, administrators, activists, etc.. It is a forum for information on research projects, funding sources, fellowships, job openings, conferences, calls for papers, teaching methods, course syllabi, useful texts, bibliographies, student and staff exchanges, women's studies program development, European or national policy issues, and political and theoretical debates concerning women's studies. We will try to conduct discussions in several languages. The list is sponsored by WISE, a European feminist studies organization founded in 1990. WISE seeks to promote feminist critiques of knowledge, and support practices and research which will improve the quality of women's lives. WISE is grounded in grass-roots women's studies organizations throughout Europe. To "subscribe," send the following message by email to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.FUNET.FI: SUB WISE-L Your Name (e.g., SUB WISE-L Jane Smith). You will receive an automated reply, asking you to confirm your request. Just reply with the word OK in the body of your message. You will also receive a User's Guide with more information on the list. Regards, Judith Ezekiel and Eva Isaksson, for WISE Karen Moon, Administrative Aide Center for Advanced Feminist Studies, University of MN 496 Ford Hall/224 Church St. SE Minneapolis, MN 55455 phone: (612) 624-6310 fax: (612) 624-3573 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:21:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: MB: Levinas Center] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6F6444B749E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be of interest to some po-listies -- Pierre --------------6F6444B749E9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU [128.143.200.11]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13917 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) id PAA44552 for blanchot-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:15:33 -0400 Received: from mail.uncc.edu (mail.uncc.edu [152.15.10.135]) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA80643 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:15:30 -0400 Received: from rac-pc.uncc.edu (rac-pc.uncc.edu [152.15.68.2]) by mail.uncc.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA21981 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:15:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:15:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199609041915.PAA21981@mail.uncc.edu> X-Sender: racohen@email.uncc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: blanchot@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU From: racohen@unccvm.uncc.edu (Richard Cohen) Subject: MB: Levinas Center X-Mailer: Sender: owner-blanchot@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: blanchot@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU X-Status: >To: levinas@freelance.com >From: racohen@email.uncc.edu (Richard Cohen) >Subject: Levinas Center >Cc: pomo@jtsa.edu > >Announcement (9/4/96): LEVINAS CENTER at UNCC > I am in the process of establishing a Levinas Center located at the Atkins Library (currently undergoing a 3 year, $23,000,000 expansion) of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte (UNCC). The Levinas Center is intended as an international research facility whose object is to facilitate scholarly research into the philosophy of Emmanuel Levinas (1906-1995). Levinas's publications, writings about Levinas (books, dissertations, articles), and revevant audio and video tapes, will be located at one site, catalogued, and made available to scholars and interested individuals. Email, fax, and a website will make this catalogue and information available to the worldwide scholarly community. The Center would also serve to disseminate information regarding future papers and conferences on Levinas. In addition, the Levinas family heirs (the son, Michael Levinas, and the daughter, Simone Hansel) have been contacted and a request has been made to receive copies of all unpublished manuscripts, papers, lecture notes, and letters of the late Professor Emmanuel Levinas. > Request: If you have relevant documents -- books, dissertations, articles, lecture notes, videos, cassette tapes, correspondence -- and would like to make a donation to the Levinas Center, please send to: Levinas Center, c/o Richard A. Cohen, UNCC - Religious Studies, 9201 University City Blvd., Charlotte, NC 28223-0001. PLEASE POST THIS ANNOUNCEMENT > --------------6F6444B749E9-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:33:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: critics and poets Dear Professor Perloff: Pehaps Alan Golding is just wrong. I prefer George Steiner myself: "The Byzantine dominion of secondary and parasitic discourse over immediacy, of the critical over the creative, is itself a symptom. An anxious desire for interposition, for explicative-evaluative mediation between ourselves and the primary, permeates our condition. . . . We seek immunities of indirection. In the agency of the critic, reviewer or mandarin commentator, we welcome those who can domesticate, who can secularize the mystery and summons of creation." (_Real Presences_, 38-39) He goes on to call the "claim to theory in the humanities as impatience sytematized" (86). Marvelous! Jeez. One little event where the poets actually get more time than the critics, and the critics go bonkers. Quel dommage, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:40:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Roddy Slyme is retiring George Bowering wrote: > I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I > might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her > eyes turned up when she showed it to me. Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a) disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however, wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Roddy Slyme is retiring if the posts below signal the end of a poetricks thread, i'd like to thank all participants for many chuckles, and to apologize to anyone out there who may feel that my chuckles were had at his or her expense.--bests, md In message <322ECA5B.5F24@concentric.net> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > George Bowering wrote: > > > I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I > > might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her > > eyes turned up when she showed it to me. > > > Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to > complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be > more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a) > disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however, > wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time. > > > Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets boughn writes: > Dear Professor Perloff: > > Pehaps Alan Golding is just wrong. I prefer George Steiner myself: > > "The Byzantine dominion of secondary and parasitic discourse > over immediacy, of the critical over the creative, is itself a > symptom. An anxious desire for interposition, for > explicative-evaluative mediation between ourselves and the > primary, permeates our condition. . . . We seek immunities of > indirection. In the agency of the critic, reviewer or mandarin > commentator, we welcome those who can domesticate, who can > secularize the mystery and summons of creation." (_Real > Presences_, 38-39) > > He goes on to call the "claim to theory in the humanities as > impatience sytematized" (86). Marvelous! > > Jeez. One little event where the poets actually get more time than the > critics, and the critics go bonkers. > > Quel dommage, > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca now just one minute. i'm aware that poets are not given their due in the academy (unless they're dead, white, male and British, no kidding even in 1996); i'm aware that writers not connected w the academy struggle like hell, unless they're connected w the corporate world, etc etc. i'm glad to see poet honored. HOWEVER! george steiner is a critic (duh...), one of those whose pomposity gave the trade a bad name. part of these critics' agenda is/was to revere the dead white british male poets and trash not critics like themselves but those like the recent continental philosophers who have sought to break down the artificial barriers between critical and poetic discourse. i've been troubled before on this list by discussions of critics "versus" poets. many of us critics are poets as well; we're just shy about it. or, as i describe myself, a poet manquee. sometimes i'm embarrassed when a POET at a conference asks, so, maria, do you write poetry as well? i feel that my credibility is on the line, and if i answer in the negative i drop a coupla notches; at the same time if i answer in the affirmative i feel dishonest because i haven't published, or i don't write what others consider "poetry" (even in as enlightened a crowd as poetricks, there seems to be a taken-for-granted difference, if not in the discourses themselves, in those who practice them). i have no problem w/ a conference that highlights poets, but let's not let this conversation devolve into george steiner. or, while we're at it, why not trot out matthew arnold saying that anyone w/ a last name like "bugg" or "jones" can't write decent poetry? or f.r.leavis and queenie leavis singing the praises of manly vigorous crisp prose? mdamon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:10:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500 from On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:57 -0500 maria damon said: >discourses themselves, in those who practice them). i have no problem w/ a >conference that highlights poets, but let's not let this conversation devolve >into george steiner. or, while we're at it, why not trot out matthew arnold >saying that anyone w/ a last name like "bugg" or "jones" can't write decent >crisp prose? mdamon Maria, So G. Steiner is on the other side of an issue (the merger or disjunction of poetry & criticism) from you. How have you addressed the actual statement Mike Boughn quoted, besides just "trashing" his "name" in exactly the same way you say he & Arnold trash others? The shared anxieties, sufferings, injustices, blah blah that both poets & critics must carry, the fact that you write poetry too or poet writes criticism, don't really counter what Steiner is saying either. I think some friction over this issue is natural at such a conference because poetry & criticism are not like two complementary academic disciplines. The academy studies a "field" of interest. How many anthropology conferences bring along the subjects of their study to make addresses? How many archaeology conferences bring along their mummies? But poets talk back. It's a weird situation, especially since there's so much straddling & mutual interest. TS Eliot was smart to confine his critical work for the most part to poets dead 300 yrs [beep: provocation: beep] - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:00:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Gale Subject: Dead Poets' Society For those of you in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, the Cacophony Chorus presents the DEAD POETS' SOCIETY, Sept 11, 8:00 pm, at the Bryant-Lake Bowl. This adventurous group of local poets is dedicated to bringing the canon of great literature to life for a new generation. With works ranging from Sappho to Shakespeare, the DEAD POETS' SOCIETY is not your standard literary reading. Offering standard poetry presentations of to musical funk interpretations, the evening promises to be lively and enlightening. The DEAD POETS' SOCIETY is hosted by SHOUT! editor, Bob Gale, and features artists Lily Baber, Juin Charnell, Adrian Jackson, Yolanda Johnson, Elise Matthesen, Cliff Mayhood, Joy Mincy Powell, Jovelyn Richards, Blake Seboldt, and Darin Smith. The Bryant-Lake Bowl is located at 810 West Lake Street, in South Minneapolis. Theater doors open at 7:00 p.m. for diner seating, with show time at 8:00 p.m. Tickets are $6.00. Reservations can be made by calling (612) 825-8949. The Cacophony Chorus is an ongoing performance series dedicated to highlighting the variety and vibrancy of spoken word talent. For further information, please email london@spoken.com \\ The Spoken Word Universe: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\ \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ \\ london@spoken.com http://www.spoken.com \\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: critics and poets... wish i could make it to one of these conferences i keep hearing about!... poets vs. critics: sounds like the headline i saw the other night on---was it cnn?---"showdown with saddam"... ok, ok... i wish we could find a way to talk about what it is we expect from poetry as opposed to criticism (mike's quotes from steiner along these lines)... specifically i'd be interested in hearing more about how we come to understand and address the underlying categories... i.e., "poetic," ("creative"?) and "critical"... or should that conjunction have been, again, "vs."?... that was a rhetorical question... clearly there is room for overlap, clearly the critical is creative, and just as clearly (though not as generally acknowledged in many if not most academic circles) the creative is critical... i think the confusion is owing to institutional and situational realities, not anthropological or left-right hemispherical ones... poetry and criticism ARE different at the level of expectation, at the level of how some 'we' expects to be affected (and effected, both writer- and reader-wise)... but the discursive distinctions that emerge, no matter how historically or demographically determinate, in no way correspond intrinsically to "poetry" or to "criticism"... it's probably a safe bet that most of us don't generally read a piece of criticism expecting a few laughs [well, mebbe a very few... ha]... and that most of us don't generally read a book of poetry expecting to learn all about the ins and outs of buoyant forces [a-ha]... yes, at some level it's the explanatory vs. the expressive stance that designates the differences at work here... but at the level of cultural work, there's no reason in the world why poetry can't be as informative as criticism, or why criticism can't be as evocative as poetry... though there are many reasons this may not be so for so many, these reasons have as much to do with interpretive leanings as with authorial motivations... i can at least imagine a public for whom poetry would be valued in everyday terms much as a bread recipe, or a public for whom criticism would be regarded as a vital realm of experience (apologies for these rather reductive analogues)... and i can imagine a public for whom poetry and criticism are expected to operate, however they do so, in the same place at the same time... which suggests a more fully hybridized understanding not only of process and product, but of reception, much as the emergence of emedia against a backdrop of print practices opens up formal-material *and* audience possibilities... one way to go with such considerations would be to ask what the apparent aversion [gasp] to media/genre mixing in some quarters---or in other quarters, the intervention-less ease [sigh] with which many do so---tells us about the specifically social underpinnings of our aesthetic choices/constraints... i mean 'social' in terms of the sorts of publics for whom such choices/constraints have value... e.g., i keep asking myself where i stand on this question of performance poetry, whence my occasional resistance to same, etc.... surely there are more possibilities available than are... currently available... i guess i'd like to see a more openly creative critical forum---among critics---and a more widespread critical engagement among, say, poets and fiction writers... and i suspect the how's of enactment are far more multivariate than most are led to believe, and i'd like to think that the tags 'poet' and 'critic' will continue to be useful insofar as they designate the primary (sets of) effects we wish to achieve---in ourselves as well as others (if you don't like "effects" that's ok too)... and sure, this has ultimately all to do with the various how's of the various what's we value... i don't expect, mself, the current distinctions twixt poetry and criticism to evaporate overnight, and i'm not sure i'd want them to disappear entirely (i'm not sure what it would mean to have no grain to work against)... but i'm quite certain we need to open up more space (publishing space included) for pushing those envelopes, for mixing it up much more than we have thus far... in any case, trying to alter the expectations of poets OR critics, as many of you who've tried are no doubt aware, is and will continue to be none too easy, simply b/c we seem to be such creatures of habit... joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:29:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets gould writes: How many anthropology conferences bring along the subjects of their study to make addresses? more and more. but they try not to do it like, "bringing them along" --rather to present equal hearings. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:51:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: nice critics and poets apparently some _like_ to read and write-- but doesn't all this attention to the issue of genre- hoppers/privilegers make you wonder what is not being talked about-- which might be the growing (and predictable) discontent? (declare victory and leave) or rather it's not the social blurring (nationalism?) of critics/poets but among the _writers_ along the axis of politico-aesthetic affiliations? leading towards the close bracket? beg pardon? talking is nice, talking about is nice, talking about about is nice, no vacancy? circular drive? J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:48:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: <322eeb2819c7004@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Sep 5, 96 10:00:57 am Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now, if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek without a paddle? Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:46:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: Re: critics and poets -Reply let us not forget: critics are readers, first of all. we need all we can get. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:12:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: critics & poets To visit dilapidated zoos, to sit down and read, to glance up through the iron bars and write something down about the weather or the sky in a blistered notebook, undiscovered by critics and unsought for by bored readers - this is one of those poet-type things done by poets. Eventually every reader finds twelve or thirteen poets in a lifetime. It's not so easy to read, unless you're one of those real readers bitten by what someone could write - usually it comes along thanks to some critics, one of those people who'd rather go blind than look at the sky. Only plein-air airplanes write on the sky. Did you notice that? Maybe you're one of the "poets." But if you're reading this, your probably a couple of critics. They like to read. Too bad most of them can't write. They wish they could, often enough - they're wishful readers. In the zoo, even some of the monkeys are readers. But most of them just scramble around or screech at the sky. Sit them down at a terminal and they'll learn how to write, I reckon. There's probably already a group who call themselves poets - the Simian Group (motto: "We Know How to Read.") If they fuse all that with screeching, they'll make good critics. The zoo is run by keepers - people who wish they were critics! Can you believe it? And they're not even readers! Though occasionally they burn newspapers. I read. I saw. I conquered. The air, the plane, the bars, the sky... They'd put them all behind bars, the poets that is. Who they, anyway? I don't know - you write for a while. YOU write. Me, critic. You, poets. Here comes Tarzan, readers! Out of the sky! Bashing open the bars! (But can he read?) If you read between the bars, you can also write. The work's cut out for you, readers and critics! The poet's gone to sleep, and the skywriting is - all sky. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets Mike Boughn wrote: >Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now, >if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek >without a paddle? Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own version of phantom pain. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:02:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henryg Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400 from On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:57:19 -0400 David Kellogg said: > >Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing >cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is >so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics >would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own >version of phantom pain. Trouble with this theory is, for "living poetry", culture is not capital. Poetry is anti-cultural. Anti-literature. It's a form of rawness. Culture is the continual coming to terms with poetry. Say what you want about the poor suffering unknowns saved by the good old critic. It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms. Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital britches) Cheers, Henry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:12:45 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: EZLN on Red Alert (fwd) for anyone following Chiapas. gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andrew Flood To: anflood@macollamh.ucd.ie http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3102/ The communities of the EZLN have vote to break off talks with the government as of September the 4 1996. At the same time a month long military build-up in Chiapas and the heightening in tensions cause by the wave of attacks by the EPR in other areas of Mexico have led them to belive the military may be about to launch an attack on them. They have gone on Red Alert and are appealing for national and international support. More details including the communiques can be found in the Red Alert section of the Irish Mexico Group web page at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3102/ please forward this announcement as relevant in solidarity Andrew Flood ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets First I wrote: >>Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing >>cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is >>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics >>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own >>version of phantom pain. And then Henry G. wrote: >Trouble with this theory is, for "living poetry", culture is not capital. >Poetry is anti-cultural. Anti-literature. It's a form of rawness. >Culture is the continual coming to terms with poetry. Say what you >want about the poor suffering unknowns saved by the good old critic. >It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms. >Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital >britches) Except for "real", of course. As compared to. . . artificial? I deny (1) that some poets are more real poets than others, and (2) that most sentences beginning "Poetry is [fill in the blank]" should be taken seriously. As long as I'm waiting for hurricane Fran: My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry could get along fine without criticism. I thought that was an oversimplification. I still think so, and I don't think the rhetoric of authenticity ("real" poets) makes it any less so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 14:32:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Padmasambhava Listor, I am looking for the full quote which starts: "When the iron bird flies and..." by one Padmasambhava, the Indian yogi who brought Buddhism to Tibet in the eight century. As it will be a few days before I can get to the library I was hoping someone had more complete information. Any help would be appreciated. Christopher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:20:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets it's the basic assumption i question. md In message <199609051748.NAA03324@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now, > if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek > without a paddle? > > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:43:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: critics and poets >David Kellogg wrote "I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is >so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics >would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own >version of phantom pain." i believe this says far more about the (slice of) soci ety you wander Mr. Kel log than it does about (any) poet ry. cf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:44:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: critics and poets (disabuse onself of importance said the flea as it consumed the dog) COMPUTER HACKER SEVERELY BEATEN AFTER CRITICIZING PRISON CONDITIONS TARGET OF CAMPAIGN BY U.S. SECRET SERVICE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE A convicted hacker, in prison for nothing more than possession of electronic parts easily obtainable at any Radio Shack, has been savagely beaten after being transferred to a maximum security prison as punishment for speaking out publicly about prison conditions. Ed Cummings, recently published in Wired and Internet Underground, as well as a correspondent for WBAI-FM in New York and 2600 Magazine, has been the focus of an increasingly ugly campaign of harrassment and terror from the authorities. At the time of this writing, Cummings is locked in the infectious diseases ward at Lehigh County prison in Allentown, Pennsylvania, unable to obtain the proper medical treatment for the severe injuries he has suffered. The Ed Cummings case has been widely publicized in the computer hacker community over the past 18 months. In March of 1995, in what can only be described as a bizarre application of justice, Cummings (whose pen name is "Bernie S.") was targetted and imprisoned by the United States Secret Service for mere possession of technology that could be used to make free phone calls. Although the prosecution agreed there was no unauthorized access, no victims, no fraud, and no costs associated with the case, Cummings was imprisoned under a little known attachment to the Digital Telephony bill allowing individuals to be charged in this fashion. Cummings was portrayed by the Secret Service as a potential terrorist because of some of the books found in his library. A year and a half later, Cummings is still in prison, despite the fact that he became eligible for parole three months ago. But things have now taken a sudden violent turn for the worse. As apparent retribution for Cummings' continued outspokenness against the daily harrassment and numerous injustices that he has faced, he was transferred on Friday to Lehigh County Prison, a dangerous maximum security facility. Being placed in this facility was in direct opposition to his sentencing order. The reason given by the prison: "protective custody". A day later, Cummings was nearly killed by a dangerous inmate for not getting off the phone fast enough. By the time the prison guards stopped the attack, Cummings had been kicked in the face so many times that he lost his front teeth and had his jaw shattered. His arm, which he tried to use to shield his face, was also severely injured. It is expected that his mouth will be wired shut for up to three months. Effectively, Cummings has now been silenced at last. >From the start of this ordeal, Cummings has always maintained his composure and confidence that one day the injustice of his imprisonment will be realized. He was a weekly contributor to a radio talk show in New York where he not only updated listeners on his experiences, but answered their questions about technology. People from as far away as Bosnia and China wrote to him, having heard about his story over the Internet. Now we are left to piece these events together and to find those responsible for what are now criminal actions against him. We are demanding answers to these questions: Why was Cummings transferred for no apparent reason from a minimum security facility to a very dangerous prison? Why has he been removed from the hospital immediately after surgery and placed in the infectious diseases ward of the very same prison, receiving barely any desperately needed medical attention? Why was virtually every moment of Cummings' prison stay a continuous episode of harrassment, where he was severely punished for such crimes as receiving a fax (without his knowledge) or having too much reading material? Why did the Secret Service do everything in their power to ruin Ed Cummings' life? Had these events occurred elsewhere in the world, we would be quick to condemn them as barbaric and obscene. The fact that such things are taking place in our own back yards should not blind us to the fact that they are just as unacceptable. For more information on protest plans, email protest@2600.com or call our office at (516) 751-2600. Complete details on this case can be found on the following web site: http://www.2600.com. 9/4/96 UPDATE: 9/5/96 At around 10AM, we received a rather upbeat call from Ed. He's still feeling pretty lousy, but he did speak to his lawyer this morning. Ken (lawyer) called Judge Panella in Northampton County and also Dan Pollanski, the District Attorney. They both agreed that there was no valid reason for Ed to have been transferred to Lehigh County maximum facility and that a transfer to a minimum security facility with good medical services should be sought. The also concurred that Ed should not be sent back to Bucks County due to the administrative treatment he received there. The judge spent a good 30 minutes discussing this with Ken, which is virtually unheard of. They discussed that Panella's sentencing had specifically stated that Ed was to serve all of his sentence at Bucks County, alluding to the fact that the BCCF administrators should never have transferred him. Furthermore, the judge agreed that there was no basis provided for the "protective custody" designation. On an even more positive note, the judge and the DA were to discuss revisiting Ed's sentence with Ken today. They both agreed that they had expected Ed to serve his minimum sentence and be paroled after 6 months. We will hear more about this around 6PM today. This _could_ result in Ed's immediate release. A note of caution to you optimists out there: several layers of administrative b.s. are in place to assure that prisoners are not easily released (to prevent them from taking advantage of family or political ties, etc.) So, we were felling fairly upbeat about the whole situation... At 12:30, Ed phoned me from yet another prison phone system (TeleLink). He was transferred back to Northampton County Prison. As most of you will remember, this prison was built in the 1800s and has horrible conditions including roaches and rats. Ed is now in the infectious disease medical unit there. There is not *supposed* to be any smoking on this unit, but of course inmates do. Ed is allergic to cigarette smoke. When he was last in this facility, he was very ill with 104 fever and coughing up blood. I'm sure we can imagine how difficult that type of coughing could get with Ed's jaw broken and wired shut. The medical facility there is run by a private company (Correctional Healtcare Solutions, 800-487-8995) who cuts costs wherever possible, including neglecting to provide prescribed medications to inmates. Ed was given a pillow, which seems like a bonus compared to the Lehigh facilities. Ed was woken up around 8am on 9/5 and moved to a new cell in the infectious disease ward (he had been transferred yesterday as well). He also got to see the Lehigh Prison doctor for the first time since his release from the hospital. The doctor was concerned about continued pain Ed has in his right temple and was to call the hospital to review the xrays for possible fracture there. He was also going to prescribe a stronger painkiller for Ed (currently on Tylenol 3 with Codeine). Ed is fairly sure that he will have to start this process all over again with a doctor at Northampton County, whenever one sees him. The discharge unit at Lehigh County refused to allow Ed to take his legal paperwork with him. His lawyer has phoned the discharge unit, who is now "searching for the folders". Ed still needs to get a soft toothbrush and a cover for his cast so he can shower -- believe it or not, he hasn't been able to shower since last THURSDAY; when they transferred him on Friday, he was in a holding cell for about 10 hours and hadn't had a chance to shower before 10AM on Saturday. You can just imagine his current condition, after losing a few pints of blood and then having surgery... We have no assurance that they will allow him to receive the package we're sending 9/5 which includes these items. We tried getting a copy of his medical release instructions to send along with the package, but the hospital requires Ed to sign a release form before they'll provide the instructions to anyone but Ed. The prison system, including medical facilities, seem to feel no compulsion to follow the medical orders. Lehigh didn't provide him with liquified food and didn't have a mortar/pestle to grind up his medication and vitamins. Ed doesn't hold much hope that the Northampton County facilities will be any better. He also hasn't had any ice on his incisions since last night (more than 12 hours ago). If his arm swells under the cast, his circulation could be cut off. We've also just called the Lehigh County DA's office to find out what Ed has to do to file criminal charges against the guy who beat him up (Michael Williams). Apparently, no one from the police department has asked Ed if he wants to file charges. No one took photographs of Ed's condition after the beating. Ed has to ask for a special criminal complaint form from the prison he's in. He'll do this today; he *has* to file the criminal complaint against his assailant before he can file civil complaints against Bucks County and Lehigh County prisons. The only other decent news is that the 'new' prison phone system also seems to allow 3 way calls. Ed hasn't had any of the weird number blocking problems with this system, either. If anyone can send him a money order for $10 or $15, that would also help - he could then purchase soap, shampoo, paper, pen and stamps at the comissary. He's now at Northampton County Correctional Facility ATTN: Ed Cummings, M3 666 Walnut Street Easton, PA 18042 For the record, the Warden at this facility is Terrence O'Connel voice: 610.559.3228 fax: 610.252.4082 Looks like our protest may have to change sites to Northampton County. ****************************************************************************** These are the people responsible for keeping Ed Cummings imprisoned. Name/Address Phone Fax Bucks County Correctional Facility 215.325.3700 215.345.3940 1730 South Easton Road Doylestown, PA Director: Mr. Nesbitt (warden equivalent) Chief: John Henderson (had Cummings thrown into maximum security for receiving a fax from a reporter - later told Cummings he had "no right" to speak to the press) Lehigh County Prison 610.820.3270 38 North Fourth Street Allentown, PA 18103 Warden: Ed Sweeney 610.820.3133 610.820.3450 Haverford Township Police Department John Morris 610.853.2400 610.853.1706 (original arresting officer who believed Cummings was involved in a drug deal because he was observed selling electronic components to a vehicle occupied by African Americans) Northampton County Probation Department Scott Hoke (parole officer) 610.559.7211 610.559.7218 (as Cummings' parole officer for a minor infraction years earlier, Hoke had told Cummings that parole was a waste of time for such a trivial offense. However, after being interviewed by the Secret Service, Hoke did an about face and began referring to Cummings as a very dangerous criminal who needed to be in prison for a long time.) Harrisburg Parole Office Ralph Bigley 717.787.2563 717.772.3534 Mr. Bigelow 717.787.5699 Northampton County Courthouse (main) 610.559.3000 Judge Panella 610.515.0830 610.515.0832 US District Court, Philadelphia (main) 215.597.2995 601 Market Street Philadelphia, PA 19106 Judge Marjorie Rendell 215.597.3015 215.580.2393 Judge Jay C. Waldman 215.597.9644 215.580.2155 Judge Charles B. Smith 215.597.0421 215.597.6125 Assistant U.S. Attorney Anne Whatley Chain, Esq. 215.451.5282 615 Chestnut Street Suite 1250 Philadelphia, PA 19106 Special Agent Thomas L. Varney U.S. Secret Service (main) 215.597.0600 215.597.2435 Room 7236 Federal Building 600 Arch Street Philadelphia, PA 19106 (Varney was the key factor in having Ed Cummings imprisoned since March of 1995. It was he who convinced Det. John Morris that Cummings' possession of electronic components and certain books and magazines made him a danger to society. His testimony stands out in its incredible assessment of Cummings as nothing short of a terrorist and his ability, as a representative of one of the nation's most powerful agencies, to convince others in law enforcement that Cummings belongs in prison with the most dangerous and most violent of criminals.) *************** Every one of these people has the power to do something. Please contact them and convince them to take an interest! Pennsylvania Elected Officials Governor: Tom Ridge (717) 787-5962 governor@state.pa.us Senators: Arlen Specter (R) (202) 224-4254 senator_specter@specter.senate.gov Rick Santorum (R) (202) 224-6324 senator@santorum.senate.gov Representatives: 1st District Thomas Foglietta (D) (202) 225-4731 2nd District Chaka Fattah (D) (202) 225-4001 3rd District Robert Borski (D) (202) 225-8251 4th District Ron Klink (D) (202) 225-2565 5th District William Clinger (R) (202) 225-5121 6th District Tim Holden (D) (202) 225-5546 7th District Curt Weldon (R) (202) 225-2011 curtpa7@hr.house.gov 8th District James Greenwood (R) (202) 225-4276 9th District Bud Shuster (R) (202) 225-2431 10th District Joseph McDade (R) (202) 225-3731 11th District Paul Kanjorski (D) (202) 225-6511 kanjo@hr.house.gov 12th District John Murtha (D) (202) 225-2065 murtha@hr.house.gov 13th District Jon Fox (R) (202) 225-6111 jonfox@hr.house.gov 14th District William Coyne (D) (202) 225-2301 15th District Paul McHale (D) (202) 225-6411 mchale@hr.house.gov 16th District Robert Walker (R) (202) 225-2411 pa16@hr.house.gov 17th District George Gekas (R) (202) 225-4315 18th District Mike Doyle (D) (202) 225-2135 19th District Bill Goodling (R) (202) 225-5836 20th District Frank Mascara (D) (202) 225-4665 21st District Phil English (R) (202) 225-5406 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 18:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: gould sestina -- critics and poets what a lovely, graceful sestina -- i didn't even KNOW it was a sestina until most of the way into the fourth stanza. when they're not working you know at the second stanza becuase the end words are so glaring. the play between the repeating words and the interwoven positions/concepts of read, write, critic, writer, and poet was wonderful -- rminds one of the possibilities and reasons why one would choose to write in sestina if it weren't just a class assignment! and of course, what position is mr. gould occupying here -- writer? poet? critic? reader? or.... i know, let's whale on THEORISTS for a while (gawd, come on, i'm just kidding...) e ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: poet-ics mightn't an argument re poets/critics be "academic" given the setting: a list based at a State University-- called "poetics" (poets+critics=poetics?) "divide & conquer"? "codependency"? (note: this sent via a State University system despite the spray paint stains on my hands . . . "the writing is on the wall" and "the moving hand having writ, moves on"? "Who runs may read"--Gertrude Stein "And read/where thou art"--Ronald Johnson -dbc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:05:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the object >George Bowering wrote: > >> I apologize to rachel for everything, Mssrs. Perhaps you can tell me how I >> might return a certain object to her. I remember the way the corners of her >> eyes turned up when she showed it to me. > > >Roderick Slyme Esq. is retiring from a lifetime in the law in order to >complete his dried monkey nuts collection. As his last act he will be >more than happy to receive the object in question, as long as it is (a) >disinfected and (b) delivered in discreet packaging. He does, however, >wonder why Mr. Bowering has seen fit to keep it for such a long time. But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy, and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD. George Bowering. "the sculptor 2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf Vancouver, B.C., sure knew Canada V6M 1P4 his bones" fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: critics and poets >Mike Boughn wrote: > >>Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now, >>if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek >>without a paddle? > >Is "critics" so obvious? Not for me -- not, anyway, in the prevailing >cultural economy. I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is >so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics >would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own >version of phantom pain. > >Cheers, >David David: was it not obvious to you that Mike was saying that? George Bowering. "the sculptor 2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf Vancouver, B.C., sure knew Canada V6M 1P4 his bones" fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:15:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: critics and poets >My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry >could get along fine without criticism. No he didnt. He said that they need each other. Go and read what he said. or asked. George Bowering. "the sculptor 2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf Vancouver, B.C., sure knew Canada V6M 1P4 his bones" fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:20:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives >3) American self-absorption and provincialism has been and is a problem (cf. >my conference remarks). But anti-american sentiments have been (and are) a >problem too. All of these things have a history: "americanocentrism" (what >a word) is an abstraction. Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word "American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada. George Bowering. "the sculptor 2499 West 37th Ave., of Ankh-haf Vancouver, B.C., sure knew Canada V6M 1P4 his bones" fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Lola Lemire Tostevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: critics and poets >maria writes: >>gould writes: >> >>How many anthropology conferences bring along the >>subjects of their study to make addresses? >more and more. but they try not to do it like, >"bringing them along" --rather to present equal hearings. frinstance, much of the current work in Mayan epigraphy is now being done by Mayans, rather than gringos... it had become a problem when folks realized the part of the epigraphic project on glyphs included work on living Mayan languages--so the "subject" was no longer just carvings on rock, but living individuals & their culture... hmmm... critical responses to texts as self-contained artifacts, vs response to/among a language community... sounds like a problem... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:10:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets lbd rites: hmmm... critical responses to texts as self-contained artifacts, vs response to/among a language community... sounds like a problem... i rite: this is an interesting way to articulate a difference in perspective. not so much a "problem" as a difference to be registered; it's the latter situation, "response to/among a language community," that i find compelling insofar as it explores the cultural work a text or text/event performs...bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:29:12 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives >Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word >"American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada. Or perhaps between the North pole and the south pole???? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: <199609060407.AAA02575@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> To Michael Boughn et al. I wonder if you actually read what I wrote. I was NOT setting up poets versus critics in the way you imply. I think the poetry readings were terrific. But why did all the poets give critical papers? Do the poets have a special corner on criticism? Many were sophomoric, self-indulgent, and just plain empty. I come back to my original question: who gets to speak and why? I'm sorry to sound so Foucauldian but I've never seen the issue so clearly represented as at the Assembling Alt. conference. For example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there would have been lots of objection. That's known as poetic license and what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet" decides to say is fine, thank you. So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name) announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it gradly, it's evidently OK. This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But let's at least define our terms. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:05:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Marjorie & the poets This sounds like Olson redux circa Berkeley discussed earlier last month. Marjorie Perloff said ">Would critics have been allowed to spend their 20 minute "papers" >schmoozing about this and that as some of the poets who gave papers did?" In my experience it is a nice thing when critics are not given the time to discuss their criticism in a public venue as more often than not the talk turns exclusively away from the actual text which is supposed to be the object of inquiry into a discussion of the wherefores and whatnots of crit theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory. In my humble opinion the venue for criticism which works best is the printed page. As opposed to poetry which splurts in many directions. In my experience it is a rare occasion when a paper is actually delivered to an audience which has access to the text in question before, during, or after the paper. Any close textual reading which does get done in these situations almost invariably gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question and answer periods seem to revolve around either issues not supported by the text and/or issues completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or power of the personalities involved in the setting. Actually I would hold that critics are indeed second class citizens in that the need to codify and "tame" produces an academy which is by and large completely ignorant of, and indeed AfraiD of the "whole art" of poetry. A Slap in the Face of Public Taste must happen over and over again for just such reasons. When the critic and the poet become too comfortable with each other the work has stopped. At this point they become accomodating to each other and may even be seen writing jacket blurbs for each other. A critic will say something like, "Milan Kundera is overrated, all he ever writes about is sex anyway." and the poet will know that the only way to say such a thing is through pose. Which is after all an important part of poetry. You have the Word and what follows is the word. cf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:20:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives >>Yep. and all that is further hassled by the US appropriation of the word >>"American", as if it applies only to people between mexico and canada. > >Or perhaps between the North pole and the south pole???? That is exactly who it does refer to in the languages of all the people in all those countries, exept the US, who think just they are the Americans. They even call their country "America". Why dont they just call it "The World." Well, in a way they do: their professional sports playoffs always end up in what they call the "World Championship". George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:40:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: critics and poets "many of us critics are poets as well; we're just shy about it. or, as i describe myself, a poet manquee. sometimes i'm embarrassed when a POET at a conference asks, so, maria, do you write poetry as well? i feel that my credibility is on the line, and if i answer in the negative i drop a coupla notches; at the same time if i answer in the affirmative i feel dishonest because i haven't published, or i don't write what others consider "poetry" (even in as enlightened a crowd as poetricks, there seems to be a taken-for-granted difference, if not in the discourses themselves, in those who practice them)." Maria: speaking as a white male British poet, not quite dead yet -- all of which I apologise for -- I am grateful for the existence of people who take an interest in the kind of poetry I write, without necessarily wanting to write it themselves (this tiny band, which I call "the audience", includes such as Romana Huk, the organiser of Assembling Alternatives). For one thing, it eliminates the suspicion of bad faith that sometimes lingers ("I'm pretending to be interested in your poetry because I hope you'll swell the crowd at my own reading, or buy my book, or publish me"). Though I would still do the poetry even if there were no such persons. Ken Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:03:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: <199609052104.RAA04892@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg" at Sep 5, 96 05:04:16 pm > My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry > could get along fine without criticism. I thought that was an > oversimplification. I still think so, and I don't think the rhetoric of > authenticity ("real" poets) makes it any less so. David: George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language. Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are interchangeable acts. While it's true that if you are concerned not strictly with poetry, but with other issues such as fame, notoriety, anthology spots, academic positions, i.e. the business of poetry, then you can't do without critics. But Henry's point is, believe it or not, a lot of very fine poets could care less about that crap. Poetry is enough for them and their small, local audiences. I'm not sure that what we're calling criticism could ever be enough in that sense. But, hey, I could be wrong about that. I've never been initiated into the inner rites of criticism. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:58:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry G Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400 from On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:04:16 -0400 David Kellogg said: > >And then Henry G. wrote: >>It's all hogwash. An "unknown poet" has already come to terms. >>Real poets don't even know it! (no adjectives hang to their capital >>britches) > >Except for "real", of course. As compared to. . . artificial? I deny (1) >that some poets are more real poets than others, and (2) that most sentences >beginning "Poetry is [fill in the blank]" should be taken seriously. You're right, saying "real" this or real that isn't saying much. What I meant by "real poets don't even know it" was that even poets, most of the time, are not "in" poetry. In my experience, anyway, it's a change of state, from mild to fairly drastic. It's a "fit". That's part of the rawness, continually explained away by theory, culture, literature, various echo chambers, choruses. Secondly, I think sentences beginning "poetry is" are statistically no more ridiculous than any member of the set of all sentence ever written, lalla poohbah spingwah, nonetheless, etc. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:08:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry G Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 from On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 Marjorie Perloff said: >example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen >Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now >suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there >would have been lots of objection. Probably only from the other critics, though. >what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction >etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired >by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet" >decides to say is fine, thank you. No, I think Lee Ann Brown probably thought it was a special OCCASION. >So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name) >announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh >really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul >Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand >corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it >gradly, it's evidently OK. Good thing it wasn't a class! Gosh! Poor no-name Irish poet would have taken the heat! What a spectacle he made of himself! > >This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or >poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly >more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But >let's at least define our terms. I think Dave Chirot made the most telling point on this whole question. It's a foregone obvious conclusion poets & critics are allies. Critics are readers with a voice, a mind, & power. Poets have power too, but because it's a power they can't control, they're jealous for its prerogatives. And it's not power in the socio-political sense (that's where critics come in). Poets often badmouth critics because they sense that critic's power is like a gun aimed blind. Touting the mediocre for all the wrong reasons. Now I know there's Mr. Bernstein & Silliman a-lurking out there, and many more, who've given these matters a lot of delicate thought. But sometimes old sentences can be silly too, as noted in previous post to Mr. Kellogg. - Mr. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: critics and poets ok: i continue to be puzzled by any and all assertions that lay claim not only to what poetry or criticism is (for all time? in all places? for all writers and readers?), but to how thence to distinguish twixt these allegedly fixed domains... it's not that i don't understand how my activity as a poet is often experienced (by me) in ways that don't resemble (what i understand to be) critics' activity (as critics... and yeah, i write what some folks might call criticism too)... it's that this difference that i sense, when looked at a bit more closely, is predicated on a particular (sub)set of practices and beliefs, presumably shared with a particular group of people... many of whom remain strictly fictive for me, or anonymous... meaning, that i have every reason to believe that these practices and beliefs may change over time and place and person, and that i have no reason not to believe that there is the possibility---perhaps contested---for particular practices and beliefs to overlap... that is, to be experienced as overlapping by some particular group... so you might say that i'm being a mite particular... if you like: at any given moment i may be neither a poet nor a critic, or i may be both---and i do not equivocate, and this is not merely academic... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: critics and poets >>David Kellogg wrote >"I suspect that the cultural capital of living poetry is >>so dependant on criticism and theory that the sudden absence of critics >>would be a virtual amputation to the body of poetry, producing its own >>version of phantom pain." > >i believe >this says far more about the > (slice of) soci >ety you wander Mr. Kel >log than it does about (any) poet >ry. > >cf Well let's unpack this statement and be less personal. Experimental poetry has been written continuously for at least 100 years, although critical theory seems to have caught up with it only fairly recently. I also find it interesting that folks who, as is said, "know theory," can be ignorant of writing which situates itself squarely in the middle of this theory, and in fact may not have the slightest clue how to read it. Not being in an Eng. Dept. I don't know how common this situation is, but suspect it is very common. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:23:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 09:19:09 -0500 from No question that poetry & criticism overlap. A lot of poetry is a criticism of past poetry. Look at Pope as prime example of poet-as-critic, purely literary critic. And criticism makes use of poetic effects - irony, paradox, structure, blah blah. Overlap, yes. But unless you're going to deny that there is this general something called Poetry & another called Criticism (which is clearly the game of recent times) I think there are real distinctions. In essence, if not along the edges. I guess a lot of people on the list would disagree. There is only Writing. Fine, if that's your aim - Write it. In my own case, I think, most of the time, when I hear a poem or write a poem I'm aiming for something distinguishable from criticism or writing per se. What are the distinguishable distinctions? 1. a different approach to topic or subject-matter. 2. a more heightened sense of what has gone before - in my OWN writing. 3. a desire to go beyond, to excel - not just intellectually (as in a critical work) but in an all around verbal construction project. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" really, this is almost touchingly silly. i've now seen messages scolding critics for wandering in their analyses from "the actual text" they are "supposed" to be discussing, for responding to another critic's grandiose putdown of criticism on the basis that (I) wasn't dealing with the "actual" quotation, for having "socio-political power" (ever heard of vaclav havel, if we're going to talk about "actual" authors?)(what critics used to have that poets didn't was academic positions; this has changed considerably); etc etc. marjorie and i are, i think, of the mind that ("alternative", though sometimes we differ on what constitutes alternative) poets and poetry shd receive more attention in the academy; i at least am exploring the interstices between poetic and critical discourse in my own writing practice, etc etc etc, lots of critics are poets too but until recently haven't been able to "come out" as poets; many poets are writing criticism... But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" as if they had no context? do we really still have to treat authors as if they are not socially made, but spring from zeus's head fullblown, with texts in turn springing fullblown from their precultural heads? to read some of you, you'd think poets had no socius but operated in a cultural void, prey to overwhelming forces that they do not understand, oracularly emitting the Truth --sounds kinda...primitivistic, doesn't it? patronizing? In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 22:21:33 -0700 Marjorie Perloff said: > >example, Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen > >Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now > >suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there > >would have been lots of objection. > > Probably only from the other critics, though. > > >what it suggests to me is that with all the talk of cultural construction > >etc., underneath we still believe that poets are special people inspired > >by the Muse, the inner voice, God, whatever--so that whatever a "poet" > >decides to say is fine, thank you. > > No, I think Lee Ann Brown probably thought it was a special OCCASION. > > >So we had the spectacle of an Irish poet (can't remember his name) > >announcing that there was a return to the long poem in Ireland. Oh > >really? When were there no long poems in Ireland? How about Paul > >Muldoon's MADOC? Now if a student said that in class, she would stand > >corrected by her peers and the professor but if a poet announces it > >gradly, it's evidently OK. > > Good thing it wasn't a class! Gosh! Poor no-name Irish poet would > have taken the heat! What a spectacle he made of himself! > > > >This is the phenomenon I'm talking about. I am not downgrading poets or > >poetry readings and I personally think poets (at their best) are certainly > >more important, useful, interesting etc etc. than us lowly critics. But > >let's at least define our terms. > > I think Dave Chirot made the most telling point on this whole question. > It's a foregone obvious conclusion poets & critics are allies. Critics > are readers with a voice, a mind, & power. Poets have power too, but > because it's a power they can't control, they're jealous for its > prerogatives. And it's not power in the socio-political sense > (that's where critics come in). Poets often badmouth critics because > they sense that critic's power is like a gun aimed blind. Touting > the mediocre for all the wrong reasons. Now I know there's Mr. > Bernstein & Silliman a-lurking out there, and many more, who've given > these matters a lot of delicate thought. But sometimes old sentences > can be silly too, as noted in previous post to Mr. Kellogg. > - Mr. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets hg writes: That's part of the rawness, continually explained away by theory, culture, literature, various echo chambers, choruses. i rite: As a critic who values rawness but nonetheless sees "rawness" as socially determined (i.e. we --trained critics and trained poets --find a power in "rawness" that foregrounds our own trainedness, etc, we assign value to it possibly different from how the "naive" artist wd understand his/her work, etc)(i.e. i'm quite suspicious of my own attraction to what i perceive as "rawness" and find ample room for self-critique w/in that phenomenon of attraction) -- the best theory etc does not "explain away" anything but enriches it, provides a stimulating intertext with its purported subject that then becomes itself part of the discursive/cultural environment of the (pre-)text. what do you think of steven caton's work? does he "explain away" the "mystery" of yemeni poetry by showing how it operates as social practice? does philippe sollere "explain away" writing and the experience of limits? do deleuze and guattari, derrida and co "explain" anything "away?" often the complaint that i hear is that they make things more mysterious! which of course, becomes another way of putting down theory. does dick hebdige really "explain away" the mystery of youth subcultural style? i don't think so. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:12:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500 from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0500 maria damon said: >poets are writing criticism... But more to the point, haven't we learned >anything from the last 30 years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize >"actual texts" as if they had no context? do we really still have to treat >authors as if they are not socially made, but spring from zeus's head >fullblown, >with texts in turn springing fullblown from their precultural heads? to read >some of you, you'd think poets had no socius but operated in a cultural void, >prey to overwhelming forces that they do not understand, oracularly emitting >the >Truth --sounds kinda...primitivistic, doesn't it? patronizing? I think I provided a context for where I see poetry coming from, in a sketchy way. Maybe not the context you're interested in. In fact, it's probably the context that large edifices of theory have been trying to close off for some time now. A context so overwhelmingly silly it can never become "socially made". A scandal. Though I guess this too becomes a "theme" for research. Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets boughn writes: I've never been initiated into the inner rites of criticism. i rite: that could explain the misperceptions i've seen in this thread. believe it or not, i've felt language-mystical raptures while riting whatever it is i rite, which some here would call "criticism written in a poetic sort of prose." many of the people you seem to be calling "critics" are happy if their books sell 500 copies. many "critics" (who are they anyway? people who care about poetry but don't publish their own?) don't write books; they teach instead. not all critics are consumed with ambition. many belong to book-clubs and that's their critical practice; or they read to their kids at night. etc. etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: critics and poets henry, my reason for pointing to overlap is to suggest a more open, perhaps even less confrontational approach to the substantive issue, which seems to me to be one of---alas---territory (and how is one *not* to be confrontational about territory?)... in essence the questions that have been raised and answers that have been provoked, stemming from marjorie's observations re the 'assembling alternatives' conference, have revolved around the way a certain who who speaks (poet or critic) is greeted, reception-wise... and i think this question of reception must be addressed in terms less of formal differences and in terms more of perceived social/community/venue power---advantage/privilege/entitlement... hence i'm suggesting that there may be ways to reconceive this power, with the hope of redistributing it in more equitable, workable terms... which is not to deny the very real incidences (and places) where either critical power per se or poetic power per se goes unchallenged or unabated... i just don't understand, again, how (what i see as) this question of institutional power resolves to intrinsic differences, formal and otherwise, between 'poetry' and 'criticism,' and thence between poets and critics... even though we might point, say, to poetic under and over-privileging since the ancients, or critical limelighting today, it ain't necessarily so that things have to be this way by virtue of the categories "criticism" and "poetry"... maybe it's just more apparent now than in some more stable pasts that these categories are just that---categories... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:27:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets >>My point was, I thought, pretty simple. Mike Boughn suggested that poetry >>could get along fine without criticism. > >No he didnt. He said that they need each other. Go and read what he said. >or asked. My mistake. It's what I get for jumping into the middle of a thread. If that's the case, I withdraw my objection. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets gould sez: There is only Writing. Fine, if that's your aim - Write it. thanks henry for this apt paraphrase of my subtext; i guess for my own creative survival this is what works. if i think "now i'm writing CRITICISM"/"now i'm writing POETRY" i can't write. and like most on this list, i suspect, i have to write to survive. i would most definitely write if there were no audience. but it's true, i wouldn't write "criticism." i'd write writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: socially constructed poets earlier today I had the pleasure of encountering a socially constructed poet: a statue of Robert Burns this on the way to preparations for Indian Summer Festival--a native American celebration which takes place near the Art Museum which is in the same building as the War Memorial --dbc (not to be homophonically confused with debussy) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets I just want to join in this discussion, like Maria Damon and Marjorie Perloff, on the side of the critic. It seems to me that there remains a strong *fear* of critics among poets, at least this is something I notice a lot in England; poets are afraid to be seen to writing criticism themselves, and I think this is not just because it's seen as an impure or reductive act but because, as Ken Edwards was saying, a lot of one's audience are other poets. I agree with Ken that it's very nice to have audience members who are just readers, just keen on one's stuff, and that there are too many times where, as Ken says, I poet come and see you poet so you poet will come and see me poet. The corollary for me, that Ken didn't mention, is that this also means a lot of poets in the British experimental scene live in glass houses and everybody winces when anyone throws stones. Is it the same in other POETICS members' nations? I lament the lack of a journal and criticism scene in the UK like that of Poetics Journal and L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E (although Peter Middleton's reviews in Ken-edited Reality Studios were excellently written and helpful). More than that, I lament in both cases, Uk and American, the absence of criticism that is NOT extolling the critic or poet-critic's enthusiasms ie you get a lot of puffs but not much honest and useful feedback. Whereas you get a lot of "why are you even doing that?" or "I didn't like it, so it's total rubbish, start all over again". It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect example of the kind of contemplative and intelligent culture of comments we need. And yet didn't many respond to her as if she was saying "total rubbish" or "why can't I control this". Do we have to respond to her as if she was a schoolteacher SuperEgo? It seems to me that poets need to develop a sense of discrimination to be able to acknowledge well-meant probing criticism when it comes, and not be in a permanent state of muscle-cramp tenseness rehearsing an all-purpose (and off the point) snappy comeback. Ira Lightman In my experience it is a nice thing when critics are not given the time to > discuss their criticism in a public venue as more often than not the talk > turns exclusively away from the actual text which is supposed to be the > object of inquiry into a discussion of the wherefores and whatnots of crit > theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory. In my humble opinion > the venue for criticism which works best is the printed page. As opposed > to poetry which splurts in many directions. In my experience it is a rare > occasion when a paper is actually delivered to an audience which has access > to the text in question before, during, or after the paper. Any close > textual reading which does get done in these situations almost invariably > gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question and answer periods seem > to revolve around either issues not supported by the text and/or issues > completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or power of the > personalities involved in the setting. > > Actually I would hold that critics are indeed second class citizens in that > the need to codify and "tame" produces an academy which is by and large > completely ignorant of, and indeed AfraiD of the "whole art" of poetry. A > Slap in the Face of Public Taste must happen over and over again for just > such reasons. When the critic and the poet become too comfortable with > each other the work has stopped. At this point they become accomodating to > each other and may even be seen writing jacket blurbs for each other. > > A critic will say something like, "Milan Kundera is overrated, all he ever > writes about is sex anyway." and the poet will know that the only way to > say such a thing is through pose. Which is after all an important part of > poetry. > > You have the Word and what follows is the word. > > cf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:36:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets >i believe >this says far more about the > (slice of) soci >ety you wander Mr. Kel >log than it does about (any) poet >ry. We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets Mike Boughn wrote: >David: > >George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without >criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense >wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language. >Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are >interchangeable acts. Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms. >While it's true that if you are concerned not strictly with poetry, >but with other issues such as fame, notoriety, anthology spots, >academic positions, i.e. the business of poetry, then you can't do >without critics. I wonder -- honestly -- whether it's possible to be concerned "strictly with poetry." The history of poetry is littered with failed attempts to articulate such a concern. But that's another thread, and I've already pissed too many people off in this one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:50:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: Henry Flynt lectures at Anthology Film Archives] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------667D1112480F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone getting tired of critpo/pocrit thread/ts, here's how to go hear talking about moving pix -- Pierremalgosia askanas wrote: > > Henry Flynt is going to do three lectures in October at the Anthology > Film Archives in NYC: Oct 17, 24 and 31. All on Thursdays, and always > at 8pm. The AFA is on 2nd St at 2nd Ave, SE corner. > > -malgosia > > --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- --------------667D1112480F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU [128.143.200.11]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16888; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) id LAA31401 for avant-garde-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:34:43 -0400 Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA26532 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:34:41 -0400 Received: (from ma@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id LAA28546; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT) From: malgosia askanas Message-Id: <199609061534.LAA28546@panix2.panix.com> To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU, fluxlist@scribble.com Subject: Henry Flynt lectures at Anthology Film Archives Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Henry Flynt is going to do three lectures in October at the Anthology Film Archives in NYC: Oct 17, 24 and 31. All on Thursdays, and always at 8pm. The AFA is on 2nd St at 2nd Ave, SE corner. -malgosia --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- --------------667D1112480F-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:21:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathrine Varnes Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: <322f361c0332924@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> I question it too, and besides, no one IS taking away either group. Imagine the partial bodies left behind. On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, maria damon wrote: > it's the basic assumption i question. > md > > In message <199609051748.NAA03324@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion > group writes: > > Put it this way, Maria. Ya got yer poets and ya got yer critics. Now, > > if you take away one whole group, who's up the proverbial creek > > without a paddle? > > > > Mike > > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > ______________________ Kathrine Varnes kvarnes@udel.edu University of Delaware ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:21:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: critics and poets The fine relief pitcher Tug McGraw used to draw (or have drawn for him) a comic strip about a fine relief pitcher, 'Scroogie'. In one strip, a very Bake McBride-like outfielder fades back, back, and catches cleanly in his mitt a football. "I hate the overlap," he says. My question for the list is, are Bob Grenier and Tug McGraw friends? J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:32:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500 from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:29:02 -0500 Joe Amato said: > >which is not to deny the very real incidences (and places) where either >critical power per se or poetic power per se goes unchallenged or >unabated... i just don't understand, again, how (what i see as) this >question of institutional power resolves to intrinsic differences, formal >and otherwise, between 'poetry' and 'criticism,' and thence between poets >and critics... even though we might point, say, to poetic under and Maybe you don't understand it because no one ever made that claim. I tried to describe, from a practical point of view, what I see as some "essential" differences between poetry & criticism. They had nothing to do with institutional power. Institutional power does not "resolve to intrinsic differences." I also agreed with you that despite essential differences, there is a lot of overlap. The issue of power came up in regard to "poets vs critics" & all the friction that can happen, not in regard to "poetry vs criticism". - Henry G ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:40:43 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets (cont.) I think Chris's contribution to this debate is a good example of one culture of criticism. I really agree with his observations, but not all of the argument so I want to close read my own reading of it. The controversy-stirring critic-ego-piqueing start strikes a "human" (ie conspiratorial, between him writing and me reading) note: "In my experience it is a nice thing when critics are not given the time to discuss their criticism in a public venue" I feel, yes, that's the Oscar Wilde-ism I needed when confronted with so much bad public criticism. Chris continues: "as more often than not the talk turns exclusively away from the actual text which is supposed to be the object of inquiry into a discussion of the wherefores and whatnots of crit theory or some position vis a vis lit crit theory." I begin to bristle, as I fear a "all criticism is bad, un-sensual, cerebral" (who ever said the cerebral is not sensual!) anti-theory blast coming. This fear is not eased by the (rather reactionary?) point - "In my humble opinion the venue for criticism which works best is the printed page." - which is the kind of social edict I feel bearing through people's stares at me when I try to reason out something complex in public and I start to stutter, fearing calls of Egghead and Brainbox and Blue Stocking. Then Chris says: "As opposed to poetry which splurts in many directions." And I think of the many occasions in which it doesn't, and on which the first sentence of a lecture, especially if it's contentious, does (as I hope I'm demonstrating by showing Chris' ideas, sentence by sentence, causing splurts in my brain). And I begin to think, I know where you're coming from but you don't know where I'm coming from... BUT Chris suddenly takes off with critical eloquence: "In my experience it is a rare occasion when a paper is actually delivered to *an audience which has access to the text in question before, during, or after the paper.* My italics... "Any close textual reading which does get done in these situations almost invariably gets lost in the frame. Subsequently most question and answer periods seem to revolve around either issues not supported by the text and/or issues completely unrelated and dealing more with politics and or power of the personalities involved in the setting." I'm not sure what "in the frame" means here, why just "gets lost" doesn't end the sentence best. But this is really good detailed criticism, and criticism of the best kind, because it starts by taking something undiscussed that has put many in an isolating rage, which the critic-champion can skillfully bring out in the open, and with a really good detailed narrated observation of what seems typical of the average critic's lack of interest in the reader: 'I don't want to persuade, if it involves work, I want to research and deliver and go home with an event notched up. I've spoken soberly, as if from the high ground of public service, about which I'm less concerned than I seem, and am really doing what I'm good at to too little point.' But that doesn't sound unlike a lot of poets, who surge at one with their own high ground (of attachment to the deep things, the muse, deep feeling, real anger) and I leave thinking that's like that person I bump into when shopping who just holds forth and never listens or asks about me - which, as a cultural critic not just a poetry critic, I see as endemic in this phase of consumer capitalism, a real problem of current social and inter-personal relations.... I don't want to hear a poet appearing to perhaps care about this inter-personal attitude while actually perpetuating it in performance. Similarly, cults and single issue pressure groups are a modern problem insofar as they urge you to go along with them but quell dissent or only partial affiliation. Lee Ann Brown's talk, from Marjorie's description, sounds like it maybe parodies that while enacting it while not really moving it on? My point is (in conclusion!) that Chris is a critic, and a good one, with great argumentative skills but some reactionary reductionism. His well-observed example could as easily have been used in a (more accomodating, only initially snubbing) case made for *better criticism*, *good criticism*. Given the culture and poetry we have, we need good criticism. Marjorie has identified a big problem, a big lack, and it's false healing (denial!) to say "hey, we don't have a problem, we don't need this thing we can't have". My question is, would critics, any more than poets, have been ready for questions afterwards? You can make a conference rule that all papers must be backed up by xeroxes of work discussed, but not so easily alter the culture. Intellectual fire and moral urgency are needed to prompt people (a list as clever as this) to help change the culture. Needed is a perspective of the importance of criticism and universities. Just because there is a lot of very bad indolent contemporary criticism (and university lit theory), doesn't mean we should be cynical about the *possibility* of criticism (heaven forbid that anyone should be so cynical about the many glass house abiding poets who squander the possibility of poetry). Marjorie is a rare example of good criticism; it seems amazing to me that some should attack her as a conservative guarding the rot she is trying to reform. Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:46:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: critics and poets one further thought comes to me after reading the flurry of responses to this thread: that ironically, it's precisely the (mostly academic) critics on *this* list who are acutely aware of the degree to which poetry and poets have in so many academic circles been neglected... and these selfsame critics---marjorie, maria, david, and others of you---have in fact acted through their work to correct this neglect, which i see less as a territorializing gesture than as an expression of engagement and an assignation of value (and certainly not as an act of appropriation---which is, for example, how i read the way new historicists have deployed the terms "poetic" and "creative"... i.e., with little if any critical intervention from contemporary poets' quarters)... so if in fact a critic like marjorie should 'complain' about the way poets' articulations vis-a-vis critics' articulations have been received at a conference, it'd probably be a good idea at least to consider that her commitment to poetry and poets marks same as a worthy academic-critical pursuit... and that in light of this commitment, her observation would seem to be aimed at bringing poets and critics closer to talking turkey... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:45:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:44:52 BST Ira Lightman said: > >It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example >critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect >example of the kind of contemplative and >intelligent culture of comments we need. > >And yet didn't many respond to her as if she >was saying "total rubbish" or "why can't I >control this". Do we have to respond to her >as if she was a schoolteacher SuperEgo? > >It seems to me that poets need to develop >a sense of discrimination to be able to >acknowledge well-meant probing criticism >when it comes, and not be in a permanent >state of muscle-cramp tenseness rehearsing >an all-purpose (and off the point) snappy >comeback. You're right, it was a sophomoric comeback. And you're right about intelligent criticism is the great service of real informed interested critics. But without having been at the conference, and so unable to judge, I tried to imagine the statement made by the no-name Irish poet & its context. He's making a statement: there's a revival of the long poem in Ireland. Marjorie doesn"t say, "well, is that really true? There's been such and so..." Instead, she says "we are treated to the spectacle of ..." etc etc implying some mindless slob going unchallenged. Now in my opinion that's a fairly snappy attack. And every snappy attack deserves a snappy comeback. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:12:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: overlap Robert Grenier was All City (Minneapolis) Basketball Team, 1959. He was also co-captain and captain, basketball and golf teams. Michael Jordan--basketball, golf, baseball--would be the overlap of McGraw and Robert Grenier. --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: critics and poets David Kellogg said, >We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging >by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus. It seems naive to me to say that poetry needs criticism. Poetry has existed long before criticism reared its head and will exist long after criticism has been defunded. Poetry is enhanced by criticism and serious poetry engages criticism, among other things. On the other hand criticism NEEDS poetry else it wouldn't exist. And of the poets I know and work with 99.9% would feel no phantom limb pain if criticism were excised from the body. But they would sorely lack for a valuable and, when done well, beautiful resource. What you, David Kellogg, say about poetry/critics need for each other may be true in certain segments of the poetry community but to extend that beyond certain segments seems problematic. I imagine that a great number of the poets presented in Bob Holman's recent film work do not engage criticism in a very serious fashion & I doubt very seriously any of them would be damaged by its (criticisms) absence. It may be true that the "Muse" as referenced before in this thread is a little "primitive" (in some minds) but no matter how hard the modern experimental writer/critic tries the "Muse" cannot be taken out of any equation involving poetry. The existance of the muse does not preclude context or society or anything else no matter how touchingly silly it may sound. cf ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: overlap In-Reply-To: plug for alma mater: Theodore Roethke was coach of the tennis team at Penn State-- Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Marjorie & the poets In-Reply-To: from "Ira Lightman" at Sep 6, 96 04:44:52 pm > It seems to me that Marjorie Perloff's example > critique of the unnamed Irish poet is a perfect > example of the kind of contemplative and > intelligent culture of comments we need. > A longish note I posted this morning relevant to this seems to have gotten bushwhacked somewhere in e-space (a critical plot?). Perhaps it will come limping in later, in which case this will be redundant, but what the hell, that's never stopped me before. I wasn't at the event that prompted Professor Perloff's initial post. That said, my sense is that the problem arose as a kind of discharge from the contact of two disonant cultures. Prof. Perloff obviously (according to what she's written here) showed up meaning business. The poets (or some of them) showed up for poetry mystery initiation rituals including singing ditties to old Methodist tunes and making outrageous statements about Irish poetry. It's not for others, who are not taking part in these rituals, to judge them. These cultures as they are revealed in Prof. Perloff's comments seem incommensurable to me, and my initial point, restated, was simply why does everybody have to mean Prof. Perloff's business? Hooo hooo. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca Oh yeah, one final point from my bushwhacked post. With all due respect to Prof. Perloff, many people think that all this social construction business is just another cult among the School(wo)men, soon to go the way of other cults like the Freud cult, but certainly with no more claim to "reality" or "truth" than my encounters with the muse. Those who disparage the muse are those s/he hasn't deigned to visit. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: <199609061538.LAA04686@jeter.acpub.duke.edu> from "David Kellogg" at Sep 6, 96 11:38:10 am > Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated > nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and > in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing > of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms. My point is that the relationship is asymmetrical. How are you going to write a book about a poem until the poem gets writ? Is that what you mean by "primary/secondary"? > I wonder -- honestly -- whether it's possible to be concerned "strictly with > poetry." The history of poetry is littered with failed attempts to > articulate such a concern. But that's another thread, and I've already > pissed too many people off in this one. Well, David, this may be one of those critical issues where it's theoretically impossible, but thousands of people are doing it anyway. They haven't heard, I guess. And who said anything about being pissed off? This is fun, no? Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: <32303e1e6932837@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Sep 6, 96 10:07:11 am damon writes: > But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 > years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin shoes with spike heels! Kinkily, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory > might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything. > - Henry Gould theory and poetry, it seems to me, are closer to each other than either is to "criticism," meant in the old-fashioned sense of "secondary commentary on a text." it's obvious that imaginative writing, to the extent that such a thing can be separated from other discourses, anticipates by many decades the discourse of commentary. i think i'll retire from this thread after reiterating that the point, to me, is to understand the "criticism/poetry" binary as illusory. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:43:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: overlap In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400 from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:21:25 -0400 Gwyn McVay said: >plug for alma mater: Theodore Roethke was coach of the tennis team at >Penn State-- tennis...at Penn... I think there's an overlap there. If you take down the net. - Robert Frost ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500 from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:48:25 -0500 maria damon said: > Sorry, it's just poetry. Theory >> might enrich vocabulary but 30 yrs of it won't teach poetry anything. >> - Henry Gould > >theory and poetry, it seems to me, are closer to each other than either is to >"criticism," meant in the old-fashioned sense of "secondary commentary on a >text." it's obvious that imaginative writing, to the extent that such a thing >can be separated from other discourses, anticipates by many decades the >discourse of commentary. i think i'll retire from this thread after >reiterating >that the point, to me, is to understand the "criticism/poetry" binary as >illusory. bests, maria d Wallace Stevens would probably agee with you. They'll figure it all out someday, at the Sorbonne. - Henri le Goulash ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:23:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets >David Kellogg said, >>We all take our societies one slice at a time. Judging >>by this example, your slice seems a bit sour. De gustibus. > > >It seems naive to me to say that poetry needs criticism. Poetry has >existed long before criticism reared its head and will exist long after >criticism has been defunded. I honestly don't understand what it means to talk about poetry and criticism in terms this general. The poetry BC (Before Criticism) is not the same as the poetry AC. >Poetry is enhanced by criticism and serious poetry engages criticism, among >other things. Some poetry is, some serious poetry is, yes. >On the other hand criticism NEEDS poetry else it wouldn't exist. >And of the poets I know and work with 99.9% would feel no phantom limb pain >if criticism were excised from the body. But they would sorely lack for a >valuable and, when done well, beautiful resource. That's not my point. The post in which I made the phantom pain comparison had nothing to say about individual poets, but a lot to say about the social body of contemporary poetry. Someone else (I forget who now) has complained that such concerns are only about the business of poetry, not poetry as such. Since in my view there is no outside-the-social, I'm skeptical of such distinctions. But hey, that's why this is a fun list. And as Joe Amato nicely pointed out, the folks on this list who have taken this position are quite committed to poetry and are not interested in debasing it. >What you, David Kellogg, say about poetry/critics need for each other may >be true in certain segments of the poetry community but to extend that >beyond certain segments seems problematic. I imagine that a great number >of the poets presented in Bob Holman's recent film work do not engage >criticism in a very serious fashion & I doubt very seriously any of them >would be damaged by its (criticisms) absence. The PBS station near us, damn them, didn't carry the USOP, so I can't comment yet specifically on that. But this discussion seems to be turning into a Jurrasic-Park-like "what if" scenario, or, better, a critical "rapture" fantasy (to dig out a term from premillenial fundamentalist Xianity). What if -- poof! -- there were no critics tomorrow? Obviously unanswerable and silly. -- "First, let's kill all the critics." Your point about the USOP poets is historically specific, and that's one reason I take it seriously. But my point was always social, never individual. And if the film itself can be seen as an act akin to criticism, then that example becomes complex indeed, no? I also want to second Maria's skepticism about the term "criticism," since that's not quite what I do in my "critical" work, and there's a handmaid quality built into the word. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In message <199609061741.NAA29371@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > damon writes: > > > But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 > > years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" > > Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin > shoes with spike heels! > > Kinkily, > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca i must admit, l wear milton to excess, especially at odd hours and with odd acquaintances...md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:33:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" okay, poetry v criticism no binary. but what's criticism? where does it exist? at conferences? in journals? in popular magazines, newspapers, on websites, in listservs, at readings, on the phone, at the bar, in the park, on the softball field? There are still some poets who are amused by the idea of conferences, and bless them. Who are suspicious, but who will listen and smile when you tell them about what happened. Jordan PS Don't invoke Frost unless you really want to talk about him, in which case, evvybody turn to 'New Hampshire' and let's talk-- otherwise you're cheap shooting, and that's no go in an election year, unless you're a politician (there's a binary) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:40:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: the object George Bowering wrote: > But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy, > and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time > getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was > disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that > he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD. I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same. Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries? Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:49:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: the ghettoization of poetry Maria, I had a feeling you might fetishize syntax... ____ the subject line up above is the title of Richard Howard's keynote address to PEN at the ceremony for their translation award (given to Guy Davenport for _7 Greeks_). In that talk he argues that National Poetry Month is the worst thing to happen to poetry in years, and that we must make poetry a secret again (he plays on _secretion_) or risk the loss of 'our heritage.' The title caught my attention, especially in relation to Bob Perelman's book _The Marginalization of Poetry_. Since the apparent subtext of the New Hampshire conference was the dismantling of certain assumptions about power (and irony) in what for lack of jargon I'll call the alternative/academic poetry-in-English community, can anyone speak to this problematic equation of poetry and outside? Maria? J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: critics and poets henry, i guess i'm not being my [cough] usual cogent self: what i'm saying---and if it's fashionable to say so this is in part b/c it's accurate---is that there are differences in institutional power, and that these explain different apprehensions of the relationship between "poetry," "criticism," "poets," "critics," etc... and in fact---and this is perhaps where we disagree---that for me to make this claim is contra the claim that there are "essential differences" between these categories (which of course are rubrics under which many of us "live") that are *not* a function of such apprehensions, so described... ergo, as before, institutional power does not resolve to blah blah blah... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:59:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: confidential to Mark Wallace Mark Wallace wrote: > Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this > communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming > to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take > their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts > at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project. > > BEWARE ALL CLONES! Mark, as I said to you before, please seek help as soon as possible. Your psychosis is advancing by leaps and bounds and I don't want to hear that you turned up on the "raped by aliens" episode of _Geraldo_. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:14:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Both critic and poet, both reader and writer The problem would seem to be one of categorization, yet people seem to be arguing over hierarchical significance. This is utterly predictable and understandable: Ask a popular/populist novelist what s/he thinks about difficult prose and you're likely to hear: "There's a lot more writing than reading in that book" (direct quote from Katherine Dunne). Ask a certain (former) Nyorican poet what s/he thinks of Jerome Rothenberg and you're likely to be told that poetry without narrative is elitist poetry--an ironic reversal, since much eighties postmodern fiction claimed to be free of the constraints of traditional narrative for political reasons (Acker, for example). Fundamentally, these people are defending prejudice as praxis: a certain intolerance is sometimes necessary to a practicing writer. Also, writers are so ignored in America, and writing is such a solitary activity, that there is always an atavistic struggle to assert which kind of writing is most deserving of attention. Still, I find it amazing that people who are peculiarly trained to understand one another's work would arm-wrestle in the name of a disinterested public. In this discussion group, people often turn away from questions that frame the aesthetic context. But here it is extremely pertinent: There is a point at which a prejudice toward a particular aesthetic is not only harmless but necessary to the work of a practicig writer. Since we are all writers and readers by virtue of our being in this (written) discussion group, I will speak only of readers who are also writers. If the wReider listens repeatedly to Machaut in a house full of grotesquely ornate furniture, and associates that environment with pleasure, s/he might seek out writing that has an intricate, ornate and bristling texture. In that case, s/he would be more likely to read Alabaster and Derrida than Whitman and Holman. If the wReider grew up hearing and creating fantastic stories, and associates that activity with pleasure, then s/he might ignore criticism, mistrust poetry, and seek out strong narrative writers like Amado and O'Connor. In *that* context--in that petrii dish of culturally programmed aesthetic fetishism--what is the use of arguing against privilege or for artistic pre-eminence? All the best, Rob Hardin PS: The poet who writes about criticism--even one whose motive is to categorize critics as minor artistic entities--has in that moment become a critic. Thus, on this poetry list, we are all critics--so long as we discuss the significance of criticism. "Ticks and tones might shake my throne, But frames will never shirt me." http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:06:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500 from On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:53:22 -0500 Joe Amato said: >henry, i guess i'm not being my [cough] usual cogent self: what i'm >saying---and if it's fashionable to say so this is in part b/c it's >accurate---is that there are differences in institutional power, and that >these explain different apprehensions of the relationship between "poetry," >"criticism," "poets," "critics," etc... and in fact---and this is perhaps >where we disagree---that for me to make this claim is contra the claim that >there are "essential differences" between these categories (which of course >are rubrics under which many of us "live") that are *not* a function of >such apprehensions, so described... ergo, as before, institutional power >does not resolve to blah blah blah... Maybe this ought to be backchanneled! I can't figure out what you're saying! But let me try to respond anyhow! Are you saying that the understanding of what poetry & criticism are is relative - and it's based on different levels of institutional power? It's a kind of sociological reading? I'm not going to argue with its "essential relativity" or non-rel. "Pragmatically" speaking, my own view is that poetry & criticism differ in essence. What I am NOT saying (as I tried to emphasize in previous post) is that POETS & CRITICS are essentially different or necessarily antagonistic. So: if you say - poetry & criticism are not essentially different - then we disagree. But: if you're saying - there's no criteria to judge this, it's all a question of power - then we're talking past each other. It's a different debate. - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Roberts Subject: poetry and criticism As Rene Char put it: There is no pure seat. This genre struggle (I am aware that here I privilege textual practice over community practice) also seems to be about the ritual use of names. Critical play/work (conference, essay, listserve, poem...) requires forms of identification and procedes by the exchange of these tokens, whereas poetic play/work does not need such an exchange. Acts of criticism such as quotation and allusion at some point involve nominal references which can no longer be deferred. A poetic practice such as the use of a diction need not necessarily involve names, though it can, nor need a poetic use of names be critical. I suppose I cannot imagine a criticism without provided or implied names, though I can imagine such a poetry. And, of course, I can imagine a critical poetry either with or without names. Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: Assembling Alternatives I'm just back on the line, recovering from the event here last weekend and catching up with the chat about it and "poets and critics." I'm probably just tired but I find all of this rather disheartening and surprising, especially Marjorie's almost entirely negative take on the conference. I want to offer a few simple points just to deflate the ballooning implications of the event's planning that have become the topic of conversation. First off, I confess that it was my own bad organization and lack of experience in running conferences that resulted in lack of discussion time; if you look at the schedule again, you'll see that at least one quarter of the time for each session should have been devoted to talk, but since virtually no session started on time(something I should have foreseen), talk became abbreviated. I want to stress, however, that in only one case did this result in no time whatsoever; there WAS time for questions about Philip Mead's fine paper, for example--it just got overtaken by questions directed at Bob Perelman. Secondly, the program was full of bios and pics of the poets because it was made with the evening audience in mind, not the conference audience. (I think I would have felt pretty silly presenting such a thing to those of us who already know most of these people.) I can see that Marjorie may not have realized this because fewer "members of the public" showed up than I had hoped; if they had, the need for these brochures might have been more apparent. I had no time to make introductions, given the long list of readers each night; it was key that the uninitiated had some sketches of the poets on stage. These are boring points to make, but I'm trying to show you that in many cases what you're reading as fair or foul intention are the effects of my own poor planning and/or communication. Bigger issues involve the amount of time allowed poets vs. critics, and I must say that the problem never crossed my mind. I thought: all day to the conference (with an hour and a half for afternoon readings) and all night to the readings. What would have been more fair? Most of the poets coming to the conference felt that they needed to read as well as give papers, so I accommodated them to the extent that I could, never even thinking this might be a problem for the critics. The fact was that I had less response from people wishing to give papers than I had hoped, even though the "call" was as widespread as I could manage to make it. Those I "invited" were simply the people whose addresses I had; I asked that information be passed on. And I took papers all the way up until the week before the conference. Go figure. I won't go on with this. I would have hoped that the conversation would have been about the differences we heard and saw -- some of them illustrative of writers working at some distance from our conversations on poetics and therefore a bit uncomfortable about coming together as we did. So at times the papers didn't satisfy those who like Marjorie are at a different edge of talk; I was in a less demanding way pleased that the Irish poet whose been batted about a bit here left saying that he had a lot to read, and would do so with pleasure. That was the point of my doing this. We should talk now about what makes all of these people "alternative" or no -- talk with them, too. I'm sorry that this event didn't plan well enough that crucial time; I hope someone else does this again soon -- does it better. Thanks to all who came. Romana Huk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Both re: both (Not to be confused with Paul Metcalf's book by that name--say Poe and (John Wilkes) Booth at the same time: Both!) I just learned two things at that college, Mr. Ford, that was ever of any use to me . . . the other was a definition I got out the agronomy books, and I reckon it was even more important to me than the first. It did more to revise my thinking , if I'd really done any thinking up until that time. Before that I'd seen the everything in black and white, good and bad. But after I was set straight I saw that the name you put to a thing depended on where you stood and where it stood. And . . . and here's the definition, right out of the agronomy books: "A weed is a plant out place." I find a hollyhock in my cornfield, and it's a weed. I find it in my yard, and it's a flower." --Jim Thompson, The Killer Inside Me --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:37:36 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: critics and poets In-Reply-To: <322eeb2819c7004@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Hey maria, you have so published! :-) gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Assembling What I think would be interesting (and I know some of the participants are just recovering from the ardors of their return journey and have for that reason not yet contributed) - aside from the thread that evolved and expanding from Romana's thoughts - would be to hear more about/from the poets who were there, their work as performed or in general, about/from the critics who gave papers and what the papers given were about. That is, talk about what we saw or what we might've missed (for those who couldn't go). I fear of course the way the trend is going (the conference -> an issue related to but at a remove from the conference), the discussion will next evolve towards "the phenomenon of tangential discussions on listservs" (the conference -> an issue related to but at a remove from the conference -> how listservs discuss tangential issue). Simply put, it would be great to hear more about *the work* presented at Assembling! I'd also like to think about what alternatives if any might be assembled from the fact of this gathering. I also think that if there was a shortage of time for discussion while we were all together, now is the time that specific questions CAN be brought up. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Kuszai Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" In-Reply-To: I've not logged in a couple days--but have been watching the clouds circle in from the east and wanted to comment on something Marjorie Perloff said in her recent post. Personally I think the poet-critics debate is kind of silly, yet I wonder if there aren't threads of things that need to be discussed that aren't being addressed. On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Marjorie Perloff wrote: > ... why did all the poets give critical papers? Do the poets > have a special corner on criticism? Many were sophomoric, self-indulgent, > and just plain empty. I come back to my original question: who gets to > speak and why? This is an issue I've been wondering about for some time. Granted, my experience with conferences has been extremely limited to conferences held since the rise of G2+ with the conference organized by Juliana Spahr now more than 3.5 years ago, THE NEW COAST. And I'm not thinking of, say, conferences such as the one Jonathan Monroe organized last year at Cornell, which was for the most part mostly an academic conference (though poets did speak there, as both critics and poets). But rather, I am thinking of the Rob Fitterman sponsored NYC Poetry Talks, New Coast, etc. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the conf. at New Hampshire, and sorely wish that I had been able to afford it. I made the commitment to attend the Maine 50s conf., and give a paper there (something I hope to do more and more). The issue for me isn't one of poets-vs.-critics, which seems like a replay of an issue as old as poetry itself, but rather something else. And here it is (sorry for the long disclaimer). Why are poets required, asked, invited--and now I would say, "compelled" to speak at all? Perhaps there is a historical reason for this, or a structural one. At New York, the presence of grad students from Brown, Buffalo, and elsewhere explains why the critical and theoretical discourse may have such a cultural cache. In fact, the poets of this orbit may be inclined to have theoretical work to do, axes to grind, or otherwise a need to involve and invest in such discouses. But is that something that everyone (even of this group) shares? I'm not suggesting that poets not speak at conferences, or not be theoretical--actually the opposite. But Marjorie's description of Lee Ann's performative talk is something I've seen before. What happens is that poets are invited to speak/ AND read, rather than, say, being invited to propose a topic to be discussed on a panel. The same is true of Maine, which should, in my mind, have been juried a little. After that one, I personally felt ripped off by the piss-poor quality of some of the papers. (and not all of them by poets). The idea that all poets should be theorists (of their own work, at least) or that they make discriminating intellectual decisions about the value of poetry they like or dislike--this is a great idea, a great theory. But the reality is that poets get up there, without a handle on the hip vocabulary they know they need to use. The result is the "performative" (which is often masked by a vapid refusal to engage the audience through "disruptive" or "creative" language practices). This is all fine, on the one hand. And we know how to address such material, and it really works a lot of the time. But on the other, the point of having a panel discussion is reduced to something less than surfing the net. Why do organizers of conferences feel that every poet needs to make a speech? Why aren't such conferences juried the way that real academic conferences are (or should be)? The case with Maine being for me a lesson learned. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 04:13:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Methodist hymns and other protestant matters "Lee Ann Brown's paper consisted of having all of us sing Helen Adam's ballads to Methodist hymn tunes. It was a lot of fun. But now suppose an invited critic had done the exact same thing? I think there would have been lots of objection." Actually, if it were Stephen Greenblatt at the MLA, it might come as a great breath of fresh air. But if it were Fred Jameson, it just might be seen as the 800 pound gorilla pissing to mark the edges of his territory (an image Greenblatt once used to describe his own project, actually). If Andrew Ross did it, people would check out his threads and see it as very post something. Ditto Avital Ronell. Dr. Sokol would then conduct a session in which we would sing the poems of Emily Dickinson to the tune of the Yellow Rose of Texas. And then write about it. But if a graduate student, particularly a female grad student, or a tenuously situated untenured person tried it, they would be toast. Not having been to the conference in question -- having in fact not once seen even a single piece of literature on it (nor any other mention, save on this list), not even a call for Methodist hymns -- I'm intrigued at the debate. My distant take on the whole event initially was that this was a pretty typical academic affair. Other than maybe NYC, all the folks involved seem to have had some connection to a school -- even if might be something homegrown like Naropa. So Marjorie's plahn (lookitup) is interesting on the face of it. Implicit (or not so implicit) in her comments is the idea that poets who don't "have anything to say" should shut up, or at least maintain a decorous silence. Critics (to create a mythic category that is at least as much a fictive construct as "poets") would know better than to speak w/o anything of value to contribute to the occasion. Of course if this were really the case, most MLA conventions would consist of job interviews and little else. All those pointless papers in little hotel rooms would be lost forever. Okay, I'm being snide, I admit it. I think that the compulsion to speak (which is the publish or perish (or worse yet, to disappear into that purgatory known as adjuncthood) impulse at its most basic) is every bit as totalitarian and mind-numbing as the "poets do it, they don't talk about it" anti-theoretical mandate that we have only in the past 20 years begun to recover from. I suspect that if for the next half century ALL academic conferences consisted ONLY of people singing Helen Adams to the tune of Methodist hymns we would just begin to balance things out a little bit. I want Vendler sitting in in every one of those sessions. Of course, it gets more confusing if it's the poets telling poets that they have to "be critical" and give talks or whatever. That's at least as obnoxious. But there are some deeper questions under all this--one is the territorialization of literature via the process of singing ABOUT, rather than just singing AS SUCH. When poets don't sing about their work and that of others, they cede the territory (in the most literal sense) to others who have no particular ground for their insights other than as a career strategy. The number of critics who actually write something of value about the subject of contemporary literature is considerably fewer than the number of words in this paragraph. And for every Marjorie Perloff, there are hundreds if not thousands of others singing the tune of tenure and calling it discourse. When you look at what Marjorie has contributed versus, say, the work of others of roughly the same generation (Altieri, say, whom I think may be on this list, or Von Hallberg), it seems clear enough to me that it is only the most exceptional of critics who ever contributes anything beyond mere background chatter that ultimately has no impact whatsoever or only so indirectly (Von H, for example, has provoked some good pieces by Jed Rasula, Jerry McGann and others, and clearly influenced Alan Golding who, like Marjorie, is one of those very rare critics--the absolute number has to be less than two dozen--who also knows how to read) as to be irrelevant within 3 months of publication. We can't take Marjorie Perloff to be the "baseline" of what critical writing means, because it places the bar far too high for most practitioners. At least Lee Ann Brown offers us a tune through which to view Helen Adams' work. In fact, I think looking at one writer's prosody through another prosodic system makes a lot of sense as a critical project.* And doing this directly might lead to far greater insight than doing it through a more indirect discursive method. It might actually change how somebody someday writes something. Which, so far as I can tell, is the only test of criticism that counts. hummin' along, Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com *For example, if you were to sing the Maximus poems in a rap format, whose work would it be? Or Lee Ann Brown--can you read her work to the sound of ZZ Top? I can imagine that Mr. Bowering and Ms. Loden might have much to say about such possibilities and others [[What does it mean that so many of Ted Berrigan's records were by Arthur Godfrey??]] if only they would get themselves out from under the sheets in that virtual motel room.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 06:44:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Assembling Alternatives I sincerely hope the "critics v poets" thread is petering out now. It's a pity that, following Marjorie Perloff's initial post, this is the thread that has been pursued most energetically since the conference. Those who were fortunate enough to be there will know, and those who weren't should be made aware, that this was NOT an issue there. One of the most urgent questions Assembling Alternatives posed for me was: What is the relationship between the different communities writing poetry in English in non-normative ways? Do we have a common politics of poetic form? Assertions about "American" hegemony are not necessarily going to move us on much further. But it is clear, for instance, there is a large body of Canadian work which is exciting and reaching new stages of development, with a strong presence by women. It is clear that the Irish avant-garde scene is small (the conference participants constituted just about the whole of it) but could usefully be included in the wider colloquy. It is also the case that the British scene is rich and well-established, but its exponents are only just beginning to be read across the Atlantic. And finally, to reiterate a point I made in a previous post, Philip Mead's paper pointed to parallel developments in Australia, and I for one would certainly like to know more about "innovative" writing there and in New Zealand. Perhaps we should be working to get beyond these national categories now, and start learning more from each other. It may be one of the ways forward that Bob Perelman was urging us to consider in his "after 'language' what?" presentation. The question of distribution of texts is one practical difficulty to be addressed. But it seems to me that the Poetics list by its very nature provides the ideal forum for discussing these issues. Why don't we start doing it, instead of indulging in fruitless mutual sniping? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 06:05:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: m. boughn's satin shoes with high heels are these, perhaps, the unmentionable objects that have been dominating the hearts and minds of messr.'s and mesdm.'s bowering, loden, and wallace? perhaps someone might consider sharing this treat and putting a GIF of them up on a web site somewhere, unless there are irreconcilable legal complications... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:41:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives In-Reply-To: <199609070403.AAA09775@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Romana (and others)--I think you're absolutely right and I wasn't "totally negative" at all, just raising some key issues. You're right that the real subject was meant to be, should have been, what made some of these poetries "alternative." But do you feel we really discussed how, why, where, when they were alternative? What IS the difference between say, Paul Muldoon, Eavan Boland, Medh Megkukian (can't spell right?) and the Irish poets at the conference? This is not a rhetorical question--I would honestly like to know. And where do US/ UK poetries come together, diverge, etc? I hope we keep that ball rolling. Marjorie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: HELP!!! "humor institute" i saw the phrase "the humor institute" somewhere and it sparked me to write a poem but now... i can't remember where i saw it and i need the source for proper attribution...! can anyone help my failing memory? backchannel if you think best to elliza@ai.mit.edu e THANKS! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:28:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: the bedfellows -- poets and critics (wrning - this is a poem) Auditron Hissing and clicking pictures into the box you touch, take your fingers rubbing your temples, carrying sweet oil to the keys tapping quickly, lightly The keys gather, heave into spasms, subside I am in the box you read, sucking me though rubber lines into your sleep, showers, into the song you hum cooking, into your quick looks stroking, pulling, holding pictures I feed into the box that holds me. EMC 8/20/96 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: the ghettoization of poetry In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria, I had a feeling you might fetishize syntax... i don't get it...i've never purchased or borrowed a syntax or any other such object in my life. george bowering can attest to this. > > ____ > > the subject line up above is the title of Richard Howard's keynote address > to PEN at the ceremony for their translation award (given to Guy Davenport > for _7 Greeks_). In that talk he argues that National Poetry Month is the > worst thing to happen to poetry in years, and that we must make poetry a > secret again (he plays on _secretion_) or risk the loss of 'our heritage.' > The title caught my attention, especially in relation to Bob Perelman's > book _The Marginalization of Poetry_. Since the apparent subtext of the New > Hampshire conference was the dismantling of certain assumptions about power > (and irony) in what for lack of jargon I'll call the alternative/academic > poetry-in-English community, can anyone speak to this problematic equation > of poetry and outside? Maria? J an interesting, provocative phrase...personally i think the "feminization of poetry" is a bit more fitting, since poetry is cordoned off as both too "effete," "ineffectual" etc to be of use in the world, AND as too potentially subversive (cf Victor Jara's, Neruda's, etc, assassinations). this double-whammy resonates with ye olde virgin/whore dichotomy where chicks can't win for losing. at first glance, poetry is kept under surveillance like a Camille in an oxygen tank more than like a Mumia Abu-Jamal on death row, tho it's also true that most oppressions operate at multiple levels (i.e. a target group is simultaneously "wily" and "childishly naive"). i think the argument robert duncan articulates in both versions of "the homosexual society" can be seen in the predicament of poetry; poets' discourse often ghettoizes itself, through a defensive if understandable need for self-protection, as a response to majority insensitivity...these are off-the-cuff, undertheorized responses admittedly. any other takers? ps i do think it important sometimes to argue that poetry is "ghettoized" --in order to increase funding for poets etc; it's also important to realize the ways in which poetic (anti)discourse does and/or does not interact with and partake of other discourses, so that no ghetto is an island...in fact the majority society is far more dependent on the functioning of that ghetto than its PR wd have one believe... xo,md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:41:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: abolishing tenure as we know it Comments: To: ecohen@zodiac.rutgers.edu dear friends; the regents of my university voted yesterday to adopt changes to the tenure code that give them virtually unlimited license to fire at will. at this time i'd like to issue an SOS to anyone who knows of academic positions coming up at other institutions for which i might be a suitable candidate; i'm very serious about trying to find another job. i append the letter the faculty consultative committee has drafted, just to give you a flavor of the seriousness of the situation. in the meantime, we're trying to unionize, but there's a strong sense that unions are mean and confrontational (very unminnesotan, despite the state's history of progressive populism) so that's not a sure deal either. bests, maria d From: Gary Engstrand Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:53:38 CST To: Multiple recipients of list UMN-FAC Subject: FCC Press release >From Faculty Consultative Committee, University of Minnesota September 6, 1996 Contact Prof. Victor Bloomfield (625-2268) The Faculty Consultative Committee (FCC) of the University of Minnesota said today that the revisions to the University Tenure Code proposed at yesterday's meeting of the Board of Regents would, if adopted, destroy the University as a major research institution. A statement unanimously adopted by the FCC asserted: The University of Minnesota's position as a leading research university has been crucial to the economic and social health of the State of Minnesota. The teaching, research, and outreach efforts of its faculty have generated billions of dollars of economic activity, attracted hundreds of millions of research dollars, created tens of thousands of jobs, and taught hundreds of thousands of Minnesota citizens. Continued University contributions to the well-being of the State depend on our being able to continue to attract and retain the best and most creative faculty. Up to this time we have been able to hold our own, despite severe national competition and declining state funding, because of our strong reputation for educational excellence and academic freedom. The tenure revision proposal under consideration by the Board of Regents undermines the commonly accepted principles of academic freedom. If adopted, it will quickly and inevitably destroy our reputation, our competitive position, and our ability to serve the citizens of Minnesota. Contrary to the claims of the outside lawyers and consultants engaged by the Regents, the proposed tenure revisions are drastically outside the norms of Big 10 and other leading research universities. The revisions allow for virtually unlimited administrative arbitrariness in layoffs and salary reductions, and effectively demolish the protections to academic freedom afforded by tenure. Academic freedom is of primary benefit not to professors, but to society. It allows faculty to do the novel research and develop the unconventional ideas that challenge current wisdom, improve our quality of life, and move civilization forward. Tenure, granted only after years of rigorous testing of probationary faculty, embodies the rules that protect academic freedom. Tenure does not protect faculty from sanctions (including removal) if they are seriously derelict in their duty. But it must protect them from arbitrary actions by vindictive or short-sighted administrators, or pressures from external interest groups. The changes proposed by the Board of Regents would render such protection meaningless. No sensible prospective faculty member would choose to come to the University of Minnesota when its policies are so out of step with the rest of the nation's leading institutions. Many of our best faculty will choose to leave. And those who stay will hunker down, avoiding controversy and resisting necessary institutional change. We do not doubt the sincerity of the Regents' "commitment to maintaining and supporting excellence at the University of Minnesota". However, the proposed changes to the tenure code will have just the opposite effect, severely damagingthe University and its ability to contribute to the State. We implore the Regents, in our shared concern and affection for this vital institution, to withdraw their proposed changes and work with the faculty and administration to develop a sounder, less destructive policy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives romana, i feel it necessary to chime in here that this discussion has made me regret *even more* that i couldn't find a way to your conference... by my account, whether critical or celebratory, post-conference discussion of this sort pays homage to the event... so hey, good work!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:43:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: critics and poets >Mike Boughn wrote: > >>David: >> >>George is right. I never suggested poetry could get along fine without >>criticism. That would be an oversimplification. They are in some sense >>wed. But let's not pretend they embody the same relation to language. >>Or that their interests are the same. That somehow they are >>interchangeable acts. David kellog wrote: > >Did I suggest that? They are histories apart, but cross-implicated >nonetheless. I have no particular stake in arguing against genre, and >in fact I don't think I've ever done so. What I object to is the pairing >of poetry and criticism in primary/secondary terms. Wait, wait! When did anyone in this thread say anything about genre? I took it for granted that we were discussing ALL kinds of poetry and ALL kinds of criticism. And help me, please: what is "arguing against genre"? Does that mean disallowing, say, comic verse? Or saying that comic verse is not separable from laments? Whew! Where is this all going? George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:48:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: overlap Well, there are some who say that William carlos Williams was the greatest athlete ever at Penn. George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: critics and poets are Bob Grenier and Tug McGraw friends? J Naw, just good lovers. George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:54:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics and poets In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Hey maria, you have so published! :-) gab. its twu its twu, thanks to u & u & u... thus blurring even further the distinctions... bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:47:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: UNH Again Alan Golding Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville 502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu The possibility that Mike Boughn recently posted to the list of Alan Golding conceivably being wrong about something strikes me as most odd. The two terms--"Golding" and "wrong"--seem directly contradictory. "But seriously, folks . . ." Perhaps I *am* just wrong. It's happened plenty of times before. But, Mike, please don't assume it based on Marjorie's half-sentence paraphrase of my talk at the UNH Conference. (Marjorie's comment was accurate enough in terms of the general field within which I moved [scrabbled?], but didn't address my argument, such as it was, and I don't think it was her point / purpose to do so.) Anyway, my talk was more in the spirit of your Steiner quotation than not, and I spent some time talking about how numerous "linguistically innovative" poets seem to hold closer to some version of the Steiner position than they are often stereotyped as doing. But like MD,I'm somewhat uncomfortable with Steiner's rhetoric--in particular, the rhetoric of disease ("symptom," "parasite") and what strikes me as an untenable opposition between "immediacy" and "mediation," as if it were somehow possible to choose between the two. In my talk, I tried to explore some possible middle ground between the poles of "poet" and "theorist" via some work I like that I see as genuinely generically ambiguous (anti-generic? post-generic?)--Bob Perelman's "The Marginalization of Poetry." I'm trying to work through what I find some intriguing (and moving) moments of self-division in Perelman (and in a longer version, Bernstein), where they end up privileging poetry (which, despite being a critic, I actually have no problem with) in texts that seem to argue against that privileging. And I'm trying to think about to what extent differences between poetry and theory are institutional rather than essential. To me, none of this is quite as simple as the Steiner quotation suggests (though I'll make no inferences from that to Steiner's work generally, since I barely know it). I focused on the institutional in my talk precisely because institutional theorizing (which I distinguished explicitly from the many forms of theorizing or speculative thinking possible) and criticism has not followed through either on its own pomo. premises or on the possibilities offered it by poetry. *Poet-theorists* have done so; writers whom one would identify mainly as academic theorists and critics (like me) have not. I was interested in discussing that continued condition of what Charles B. calls "Frame Lock," and in speculating how texts like Perelman's might help break the deadlock that--to judge from the current discussion--"we" still live within. But c'mon, Mike: you're a part of these institutional networks too, but hardly a parasite, even if that particular aside bugged me some. I'm happy to send you (or anyone) the paper--your feedback is always helpful. On the conference itself, not much to add to what others have said. No, I didn't feel like a second-class citizen; Marjorie has some understandable reasons for feeling that way, based on some misunderstanding / miscommunication about the terms of her own participation (wd. you agree, M.?) (Whether one complaint counts as "the critics going bonkers," I'm not sure.) I had a great time, and felt no poet-critic divide myself--though maybe I'm not representative 'cause I consider many of the folks there my friends, and anyway, who knows what they said behind my back? Generally, the camaderie and sense of shared interests was very strong--though as someone else said, the Draconian scheduling left almost no chance for differences to be aired, talked through, etc. Critics and poets alike suffered from the exhausting and over-tight scheduling: truncated readings, truncated discussions, truncated everything (including sleep). And there were lousy readings and talks and good readings and talks and people disagreed as to what were the lousy ones and what were the good ones. No surprise there. A lot of the poets I'd heard many times before and pretty much knew what to expect and took great pleasure in getting it (sounds very consumerist, somehow)--mostly the Americans and Bromide and McCaffery. But among those I'd never heard or not heard much, my personal faves were the Anglo-Saxon-ly visceral Maggie O'Sullivan, the high-speed Tom Raworth, the even higher speed Miles Champion, the sharp-and-lyrical Rae Armantrout, the tone-hopping Lisa Robertson, the Great American Novelist Carla Harryman, ex-Horseman Paul Dutton, monologuiste extraordinaire Hazel Smith, and Apollo and Dionysos, Allen Fisher and cris cheek. Arguing AF's theories of narrative at 3:00 a.m. with these latter two, Tuma, and assorted Irish companions (including a bottle of Jameson's) was a positively Olsonian experience (all the way to the maleness of it, I guess . . .) Every critic should have something like it. And yes, it should have been called Assembling White Alternatives. Is this some kind of social atavism? Not a single non-white person in sight at the conference, or at least in my sight. And I'm told there was only one at the New Formalism-fest earlier this summer. And we've already talked about Orono. Nor was there much discussion or imagining of alternatives outside of the academic context in which the conversation took place. When there was, it came mostly from non-US participants, as you'd expect given that the relation of poetry to the academy is very different in England, Ireland, and even (I think--help me on this, listmates) Canada from what it is in the US. Put another way, the alternatives talked about tended to be aesthetic more often than social. (OK, who's going to be the first to jump on me for that distinction?) Having offered some critique, I now feel ungrateful--I actually had a tremendous time, learned a ton, picked up loads of books I couldn't otherwise get, and generally am amazed simply at the fact Romana Huk could make this thing happen. She deserves endless kudos. And as an antidote to the frustration of discussions and questions cut short--here we are. Well, that became much longer than I'd planned. Is anyone still awake? Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:10:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: abolishing tenure as we know it Maria et al., It's notable that tenure is under attack at schools where the AAUP is not. In my view, tenure is a necessary evil. At my school, where there is a good affiliate of AAUP, and where there is a decent relationship with the administration, nevertheless a recent job ad was for "temporary tenure track" positions. go and figure. it turned out to be a clerical error. but was it? God save us from the MBAs of this world. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:27:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: uncle an SF poet named Adam DeGraff sent me a chpbk with blue type that he write. a series of "journal" poems to his new nephew Dante giving him hints about how to live. this poem has meaning for the current blithering about poets and critics. it's called may 24th: Look, first of all, if you're trying to inherit the earth, then you're probably not all that meek to begin with. Secondly, owning a planet would only be fun for a little while, but then, like everything else in your closet, would soon go out of style. And third, imagine the liability, the outlandish cost of utilities. Who needs the responsibility? No, much better to take the world by force, thus ensuring failure. Then, of course, you're safe. It's no secret failure is foolproof. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:19:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: Did you know that in.....] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------57C27F1A4C1A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit some light fare for saturday afternoon, coming, of all places from the "avant-garde" list... enjoy, Pierre --------------57C27F1A4C1A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU [128.143.200.11]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20939; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) id OAA30743 for avant-garde-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:26:18 -0400 Received: from moria.imaginet.fr (moria.imaginet.fr [194.51.83.1]) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA25362 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:26:15 -0400 Received: from icaria.imaginet.fr by moria.imaginet.fr via ESMTP (950215.SGI.8.6.10/911001.SGI) for <@moria.imaginet.fr:avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU> id UAA13921; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:22:37 +0200 Received: from [194.51.82.206] by icaria.imaginet.fr via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA05868; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:08:19 +0200 Message-Id: <199609071808.UAA05868@icaria.imaginet.fr> X-Sender: jnech@mail.imaginet.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:29:06 +0100 To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU From: jnech@imaginet.fr (NECHVATAL Joseph) Subject: Did you know that in..... Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU > > > > Alabama > > **It is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while operating a > > vehicle. > > > > > > California > > **Community leaders passed an ordinance that makes it illegal > > for anyone to try to stop a child from playfully jumping over > > puddles of water. > > > > > > Connecticut > > **You can be stopped by the police for biking over 65 miles > > per hour. > > **You are not allowed to walk across a street on your hands. > > > > > > Florida > > **Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as > > can the salon owner. > > **A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting > > on Sunday or they risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing. > > **If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee > > has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle. > > **It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a > > swimsuit. > > **Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown. > > > > > > Illinois > > **It is illegal for anyone to give lighted cigars to dogs, cats, and > > other domesticated animals kept as pets. > > > > > > Indiana > > **Bathing is prohibited during the winter. > > **Citizens are not allowed to attend a movie house or theater > > nor ride in a public streetcar within four hours after eating > > garlic. > > > > > > Iowa > > **Kisses may last for as much as, but no more than, five > > minutes. > > > > > > Kentucky > > **By law, anyone who has been drinking is "sober" until he or > > she "cannot hold onto the ground." > > **It is illegal to transport an ice cream cone in your pocket. > > > > > > Louisiana > > **It is illegal to rob a bank and then shoot at the bank teller > > with a water pistol. > > **Biting someone with your natural teeth is "simple assault," > > while biting someone with your false teeth is "aggravated > > assault." > > > > > > Massachusetts > > **Mourners at a wake may not eat more than three sandwiches. > > **Snoring is prohibited unless all bedroom windows are closed > > and securely locked. > > **An old ordinance declares goatees illegal unless you first pay > > a special license fee for the privilege of wearing one in public. > > **Taxi drivers are prohibited from making love in the front seat > > of their taxi during their shifts. > > > > > > Nebraska > > **A parent can be arrested if her/his child cannot hold back a > > burp during a church service. > > > > > > New Mexico > > **Females are strictly forbidden to appear unshaven in public. > > > > > > New York > > **A fine of $25 can be levied for flirting. This old law > > specifically prohibits men from turning around on any city street > > and looking "at a woman in that way." A second conviction for > > a crime of this magnitude calls for the violating male to be > > forced to wear a "pair of horse-blinders" wherever and > > whenever he goes outside for a stroll. > > > > > > North Dakota > > **Beer and pretzels can't be served at the same time in any bar > > or restaurant. > > > > > > Ohio > > **Women are prohibited from wearing patent leather shoes in > > public. > > > > > > Oklahoma > > **Violators can be fined, arrested, or jailed for making ugly > > faces at a dog. > > **Females are forbidden from doing their own hair without > > being licensed by the state. > > **Dogs must have a permit signed by the mayor in order to > > congregate in groups of three or more on private property. > > > > > > Pennsylvania > > **A special cleaning ordinance bans homemakers from hiding > > dirt and dust under a rug in a dwelling. > > **No man may purchase alcohol without written consent from > > his wife. > > > > > > Texas > > **A city ordinance states that a person cannot go barefoot > > without first obtaining a special five-dollar permit. > > **It is illegal to take more than three sips of beer at a time > > while standing. > > > > > > Vermont > > **Lawmakers made it obligatory for everybody to take at least > > one bath each week- - on Saturday night. > > > > > > Washington > > **All lollipops are banned. > > **A law to reduce crime states: "It is mandatory for a motorist > > with criminal intentions to stop at the city limits and telephone > > the chief of police as he is entering the town. > > > > > > West Virginia > > **No children may attend school with their breath smelling of > > "wild onions." Joseph Nechvatal @ Paris http://www.dom.de/arts/artists/jnech/ http://www.cybertheque.fr/galerie/jnech --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- --------------57C27F1A4C1A-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:49:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: uncle Hi this is Adam DeGraff, author of Uncle. I'm pleased that Bill has payed consideration to my book. If anyone would like a copy then send me four bucks and I'll send one out to you. Right now I'm over at Kevin Killian's house using his account, but here's my address, Adam DeGraff 530 Page #2 San Francisco, CA 80525 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:54:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: [Fwd: Did you know that in.....] You see, I just *knew* there was a perfectly good reason for why it never even crossed my mind to apply to the Writers' Workshop in Iowa...emily Pierre wrote: > Subject: Did you know that in..... > > > Iowa > > > **Kisses may last for as much as, but no more than, five > > > minutes. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:56:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: harryette mullen Anybody out there have either an e-mail address or a phone number for Harryette Mullen? I'd be grateful; backchannel please. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:31:18 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: uncle >Hi this is Adam DeGraff, author of Uncle. I'm pleased that Bill has payed >consideration to my book. If anyone would like a copy then send me four >bucks and I'll send one out to you. Right now I'm over at Kevin Killian's >house using his account, but here's my address, > > Adam DeGraff > 530 Page #2 > San Francisco, CA 80525 This is Dodie--the above is not Adam's zip code, at least not in this incarnation. His real zip code is: 94117. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:58:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: critics and poets George Bowering wrote: >Whew! Where is this all going? Damned if I know. Meanwhile it's muddy as hell outside and nobody I know here has power at home. (Duke, from where I write, has its own generator.) I'm going to go try to find some ice; clearly I intervened in the middle of a discussion that was going on fine without me and will continue to do so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 13:47:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: NOT Re: critics & poets Uh, I'm just going through my poetics mail box after a busy week. I've got nearly 200 messages here, I'm up to sometime Wednesday or so & I've looked ahead & see LOTS of discussion about the poet/critic conundrum. Being neither I find this abstractly interesting in some vague way, but I was wondering if there were any folks who had further reports on the Assembling Alternatives conference as such. The first few were good but then things got sort of kidnapped. Maybe people just didn't change their subject lines & I'll be pleasantly surprised as I read ahead, but why do I doubt this is the case? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:16:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: NOT Re: critics & poets look at the headings labelled assembling alternatives. also, starting late last night and early this morning, messages started blazing in detailing new hampshire... oh yeah, also some headered "UNH" e ps i wasn't there. psps at the conference ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:40:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" At 8:15 AM 9/7/96, Joel Kuszai wrote: >Why are >poets required, asked, invited--and now I would say, "compelled" to speak >at all? Perhaps there is a historical reason for this, or a structural >one. At New York, the presence of grad students from Brown, Buffalo, and >elsewhere explains why the critical and theoretical discourse may have >such a cultural cache. In fact, the poets of this orbit may be inclined to >have theoretical work to do, axes to grind, or otherwise a need to involve >and invest in such discouses. But is that something that everyone (even of >this group) shares? This is Dodie, and yes, Joel, I think you're pointing in an important direction. Last night was the SF Art Institute's faculty cocktail party (it was hard to believe even when I was there that I was at such an event), and I got a ride home from another visiting faculty member, a local photographer whose work evidences a fine intelligence, each photo evoking history, politics, emotion and the materiality of the photographic processes involved. So, we were discussing our classes and our students, and I started talking about art/writing that came out of a theoretical basis. He denied that his work had a theoretical basis. When I countered with, look at all the stuff that you have drawn on in making your work, he replied that his work was conceptual--not theoretical. At first I thought: we're just playing around with vocabulary here. But, I wonder. Perhaps "conceptual" would be a useful model, as a writer, to adopt--as a way of being "smart" without having to walk around spouting abstractions like a little professor. And yes I am aware that many Conceptual Artists are fountains of spouting theory--theory which has had more of an impact on my writing than poetic theory--because it always seems to point back to the world. When I hear the word conceptual (as opposed to theoretical) I get more of a sense of a rationale that is organic to the work, growing from inside rather than pasted onto it. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" >damon writes: > >> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 >> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" > >Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin >shoes with spike heels! > >Kinkily, >Mike >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems. George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the object >George Bowering wrote: > >> But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy, >> and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time >> getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was >> disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that >> he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD. > >I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't >tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same. >Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries? > >Rachel Ah jeez. Herb said "She'll never notice." I said, "Come on, look at the whole side of it there." Herb said,"In the stete she's in when she goes for the object, she's not going to notice, I tell you." I said, "Let's take up a collection from all the Slam Poets that enjoyed it, and buy her a new one." Herb said, "Oh yeah, george? You know where to get them?" George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:27:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: confidential to Mark Wallace >Mark Wallace wrote: > >> Anyone on the list who misunderstands the nature of this >> communication, and the reason why it must take place in a forum claiming >> to have some relevance to the practice of poetry, is directed to take >> their concerns to the CIA, who I must say, in all fairness, are experts >> at policing, despite the dubious goals of the current cloning project. >> >> BEWARE ALL CLONES! > >Mark, as I said to you before, please seek help as soon as possible. >Your psychosis is advancing by leaps and bounds and I don't want to >hear that you turned up on the "raped by aliens" episode of _Geraldo_. > >Rachel Hey, Mark! Me too! Hey, they got me when my car broke down on the road between Seattle and Concrete. It was awful. There were 23 of them, and I can remember every minute of that night. What happened to you? Did they make you promise the same thing thay made me promise? You think that's a binding promise now? I am so glad that this happened to someone else. I was thinking....well, you know.... George Bowering. "I'm more than human, 2499 West 37th Ave., I'm a woman!" Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --David Meltzer fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 00:24:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: UNH:"can't we all get along?" yikes! What do people who were not at the AA in NH make of all the banter about poets vs. critics (World Wide Wrestling time?) going on this list? I for one, had a great time. The nicest thing about the event was that people, on the vast whole, were REALLY NICE AND FRIENDLY TO EACH OTHER. This is a change from the landshark scene at MLA and the eyeing of the "enemy talent" one sees at most poetry gatherings. I met many nice people and came away with new friends and contacts. In this crapped-out climate, that's saying a lot. Romana's great accomplishment was bringing together an international gathering of (mostly) english-speaking poets. In an age of faxes, email, web-sites and (comparitivly) inexpensive International phonecalls, UK and NA poets seem to have less contact w/ each other than in the previous generation. Hopefully this conference will start the lines of conversation going. As w/ any large enterprise, their were good and bad papers/readings. Was impressed by Rae Armatrout, Denise Riley & Mile Champion's sets (plenty others but not thinking so well here). Good conversations, etc. My take on Marjorie's points: for myself and most poets not in academia, the conference fees & etc. came out of our pockets. We get no professional "credit" in attending nor do we have an institution that will reimburse some of our fees. A number of poets simply crashed because they didn't have the funds to be present. I don't think critics were treated as 2nd class citizens, most of us poets are happy that there are scholars interested in the writers we care about. There are smaller quibbles. The honkyfest aspect of the event bothered most of us -- and the lack of a forum to discuss why racial issue were such a small part ofthe proceedings. I also felt that the range of American poetries presented was VERY narrow, comapared to the range of UK poetry presented. A shame as Susan Wheller, Marjorie Welish and Simon Pettit were present & did not read. Ignored were US publishers, like Geoff Young & Peter Gannick, who both live in New England. I was also surprised that Charles Simic was not asked to read (I hear he was wandering about, as he is a prof at UNH). We have to get over this our side/their side thing. Simic continues with a surrealist tradition, from much of our current experimentalist work has some origin in. Is this some problem w/ the current configurations of Language Poetry? In the late 70's, there was an acknowledgement of origins -- now it seems that L.poetry arrived by two meterors that landed in SF and Manhattan. -- I think we need two, three, many AA's. Poets and critics need to meet and just talk about things. It is a rare person, with the energy and imagination to pull something like AA off. Thanks again, Romamna Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Conceptual crit? Comments: cc: au462@cleveland.freenet.edu At 03:40 PM 9/7/96 +0100, Kevin Killian wrote: >and I started talking about art/writing that came out of a theoretical >basis. He denied that his work had a theoretical basis. When I countered >with, look at all the stuff that you have drawn on in making your work, he >replied that his work was conceptual--not theoretical. At first I thought: >we're just playing around with vocabulary here. But, I wonder. Perhaps >"conceptual" would be a useful model, as a writer, to adopt--as a way of >being "smart" without having to walk around spouting abstractions like a >little professor. And yes I am aware that many Conceptual Artists are >fountains of spouting theory--theory which has had more of an impact on my >writing than poetic theory--because it always seems to point back to the >world. When I hear the word conceptual (as opposed to theoretical) I get >more of a sense of a rationale that is organic to the work, growing from >inside rather than pasted onto it. > >Dodie > the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance for real change." Perhaps, the issue is not critic/poet/psychologist (my particular curse) but consumer/creator (critics and readers can and should create) or theoretician/concepter? I would be interested in hearing more about conceptual crit, active reading, etc. tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:08:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: slightly awake Alan (Golding) late here but yes, still awake enough to want to take you up on yr offer to provide copy of your paper to interested parties. am MIME and UUENCODE capable (and can dance!) if that's usable. all best, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:15:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: nope >Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:56:46 EST >From: Keith Tuma >Subject: harryette mullen > >Anybody out there have either an e-mail address or a phone number for >Harryette Mullen? > >I'd be grateful; backchannel please. > > >Keith no. but: (as mentioned a couple months back): am going to do /MUSE & Drudge/ in ug class in a couple months, a bit nervously (apparently we ordered Gil's last 30 copies?), and would welcome insights or leads about Mullen's work. Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 06:40:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" George Bowering added ("I'm more into...") > > >damon writes: > > > >> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 > >> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" > > > >Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin > >shoes with spike heels! > > > >Kinkily, > >Mike > >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > > I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems. That's what he says for public consumption, but stripped down I hear it's all lacy underthings and Adelaide Crapsey. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: to Mark Nowak Dear Mark--I'd appreciate a backchannel message that would include your address. In short, I never got that book... all best, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: to Mark Nowak hi susan, mark isn't on poetix right now but i forwarded yr msg to him...bests, maria d In message <960908101114_518199232@emout17.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Dear Mark--I'd appreciate a backchannel message that would include your > address. In short, I never got that book... > > all best, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 08:54:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: the object George Bowering wrote: > > >George Bowering wrote: > > > >> But Ms Loden said that if i wanted to I could lend the object to Herb Levy, > >> and I had a heck of a time getting it away from him, and then a worse time > >> getting it through customs. Herb said, by the way, that he was > >> disappointed, because he had expected it to change his life. He said that > >> he can get more from a Lyle Lovett CD. > > > >I don't know what George and Herb did with this thing (and please don't > >tell me, guys), but, as they say in Paris, the song is not the same. > >Couldn't you two at least have sprung for a new set of batteries? > > > Ah jeez. Herb said "She'll never notice." > I said, "Come on, look at the whole side of it there." > Herb said,"In the stete she's in when she goes for the object, she's not > going to notice, I tell you." > I said, "Let's take up a collection from all the Slam Poets that enjoyed > it, and buy her a new one." > Herb said, "Oh yeah, george? You know where to get them?" I guess that's why you won the Governor General's Award for Fiction, George. But I heard a very different story from a three-time slam queen from Saskatoon whose name would not be unknown to you. She says that you and Herb talked incessantly about opening a toy and poesy shoppe called The Passion Bower, with a special emphasis on rare editions of Ron Silliman, and a line of leather gear you liked to call "Mistress Marjorie." Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: poet critic critic poet... well i guess i'll have to be a bit gadfly-ish and go on record as saying (with absolutely no ill-intent directed at a conference i didn't attend, but wish i had) that the poet-critic thread produced a remarkable amount of dissonance, hence that it probably remains a real bone of contention, hence that it's probably worth continued gab (esp. when one considers that a majority of critics hereabouts are probably academics, and that a goodly number of poets hereabouts may not be)... i understand that there are productive and counterproductive tensions in any discourse community, network, what have you... and that this list may not be able to sustain any further discussion along these lines... but i'd still aver that there's something worth considering here, esp. after reading ron s.'s post... me, i'm still looking for alternatives to current critical practice, so defined, and to current poetries, so defined... and i'm still looking to find ways to get critics as well as poets to talk about the intellection (conceptual, theoretical, etc.) that goes hand-in-hand with poetry and criticism, so defined... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: fetishized texts Giorgio Agamben, in _Stanzas_ I think, has a great passage where he discusses fetishization as the liberation of the object from the limitations of narrowly determined human use into a realm of undetermined connections and pleasures. From this perspective, the fetishized text is a text freed from the slavery of uses (unless, of course, like George, it's into handcuffs.) Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:11:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not In-Reply-To: <199609081807.OAA28074@chass.utoronto.ca> Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"-- so what do you gotta do to get to first base? Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:37:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not >Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the >spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"-- > >so what do you gotta do to get to first base? > >Gwyn Hit em in the balls. Oops, that gets you thrown out of the game, doesn't it. I guess you gotta hit the ball they throw at you within the spatial limits pre-assigned, with enough unpredictability or power that your "hit" isn't "caught," and then run down a narrowly defined path until you are "safe". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:11:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: fetishized texts In message <199609081807.OAA28074@chass.utoronto.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Giorgio Agamben, in _Stanzas_ I think, has a great passage where he > discusses fetishization as the liberation of the object from the > limitations of narrowly determined human use into a realm of > undetermined connections and pleasures. From this perspective, the > fetishized text is a text freed from the slavery of uses (unless, of > course, like George, it's into handcuffs.) > > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca tooshay! nice work (if u cn get it), mike. i like the complication of the scene w/ the positive use of "fetish." liberate all handcuffs. chains of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your workers and use value, etc.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:21:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: Assembling Alternatives On Fri., 6 Sep 1996, Marjorie Perloff wrote: >Romana (and others)--I think you're absolutely right and I wasn't >"totally negative" at all, just raising some key issues. You're right >that the real subject was meant to be, should have been, what made some >of these poetries "alternative." But do you feel we really discussed >how, why, where, when they were alternative? >What IS the difference between say, Paul Muldoon, Eavan Boland, Medh >Megkukian (can't spell right?) and the Irish poets at the conference? >This is not a rhetorical question--I would honestly like to know. >And where do US/ UK poetries come together, diverge, etc? I hope we keep >that ball rolling. Thanks, Marjorie, for these questions, which I think are key; I'll start the ball rolling with some responses from my perspective and hope that others (especially those who know the Irish scene better than I) will take it up. (And no, I _don't_ think we got enough chance to really discuss these things at the conference; I'm grieved that I couldn't make the event be what I'd hoped it would be -- a real exchange between poets thought to be "alternative" in their various contexts but obviously different from one another given the differing cultural/historical spaces in which they use their English. Maybe now, post-conference, the talk will start....) The first simple answer to your question about the Irish poets is that those present at the conference are _perceived_ to be ones working outside the powerful publishing houses (Paul, Eavan and Medbh all publish with presses like Oxford, Faber, etc. (though Eavan also works with Carcanet, where ed Michael Schmidt is beginning to do things like publish Miles Champion and print interviews like the one I did with Denise Riley in his mainstream mag _PN Review_)). James Mays at University College Dublin helped me put together a group of "alternative" poets (James is the one who's probably going to get Susan Howe over to Ireland for a stint at UCD); I already knew the work of Maurice Scully and Catherine Walsh, but the others that came to NH were new to me as well. I think the differences between Paul Muldoon's work and that of the experimentalists at the conference are less easy to draw than those between Eavan Boland's and Medbh McGuckian's work and the same. That's why I wanted Paul at the conference; he was actually planning to come until family responsibilities persuaded him otherwise. He doesn't think of himself as "experimental" -- wanted me to "name off some of those folk" when I saw him here in NH in the winter -- but I think that poems like "Madoc," which Marjorie mentioned, rely on disjunctive practices and use of language qua language to an extent that the term is helpful. (All that play in "Madoc" with the "epic" of philosophy itself, done by throwing in its way the other disciplines from which it has tried to separate itself -- history, linguistics, even geography....) What interests me, though, is the different imperative in the work that disallows complete disjuncture (or the sort of situation in which the impact of the poem rests wholly in its unmaking and commentary on/foregrounding of language) and instead begins to tease out parallels between imperial, colonial and postcolonial articulations of history. I'm indebted to Clair Wills's fine book on Irish work (_Improprieties_) in my readings of poets like Paul; she makes me wonder whether we can possibly have what Ken Edwards wondered about in a recent post -- "a common politics of poetic form" -- in English-speaking contexts so vastly different, one from the other, in their relationships to language, "community" and political project. I don't think disjunctive form is the only or even best way to identify an alternative poetry, though it might identify the culture from which it comes. I've just written on Susan Howe's poems as compared to Eavan Boland's and Denise Riley's, arguing that the forms as derived from Olson don't necessarily make her work more "radical" in impact than that of the other two but do tend to make her more vulnerable to _different_ kinds of contradictions and romanticisms embedded in our poetic tradition. The word as thing separated from its discursive environment -- whether that be class or territory of speakers -- seems to get less use in Irish and U.K. work that I know, for differing reasons in each context; the poems often sound less disruptive of syntax but the "alternative" trajectory of their materials should be unmistakable. Getting back to Marjorie's question, I'm not sure I always see it in Medbh's work, as syntactically complex as critics like to describe it as being. (Clair Wills makes a good counterargument to mine in her book.) And Eavan, in poems aside from "Outside History," which I think is an astonishing piece of work, often seems to operate through a wholly unproblematic relationship to language and its sincere expression of feelings. I can't imagine her writing the first poem that Randolph Healy read, for example; certainly not any read by Maurice Scully or Catherine Walsh (the latter working within what seems an Anglo-American-influenced mode). But I agree with others who have said that perhaps Geoffrey Squires, one of the Irish contingent, seems to be writing in a more conventional fashion, though I could see that what the British critic/poet Harriet Tarlo had to say about "radical landscape" poetry in northern England might force me to revise that opinion. His poem "This," which I tried to help him present, is an interesting piece insofar as it seems to dissolve as you read it -- an intriguing thing to happen in a "landscape" poem -- though its internal contradictions and perceptive angst are still too muted to be caught by a listening audience, I think. I'm going to stop here and let someone else jump in -- especially on the U.K./U.S. relationship. But I just want to reiterate one thing for all of you who were, like myself, troubled by the lack of racial diversity at the conference (I'm sorry that that sounds like such "universitese"). I had invited as many people as I knew of from the other ethnic groups on this side of the Atlantic (there are only one or two who would call them- selves "experimental" overseas). At the outset, Nate Mackey and Harryette Mullen were part of my "advisory committee"; neither ended up coming, however. I feel badly that I couldn't do a better job of finding people to discuss the issues, which, as those of you who received the information know, were part of the main agenda (under "blindspots and cultural chauvinisms"). I think the problem of reading across cultures should be discussed in tandem with the problem of reading "alternatives" within differing ethnic communities; I'm new to the terrain (though I need to think through the problem of total whiteness in the U.K. experimental community before the MLA conference and the paper I'm supposed to give there!). Romana Huk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? Thomas Bell: > the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as > something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities > we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the > micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance > for real change." What is the difference between fetishizing "The Canon" and fetishizing zine/ small press culture? Either way, one foregrounds the idea that the text is defined not by the reader's experience of it, but rather by its location: by the context of the text's mere *publication*. Also: Aren't we in a position to renounce, say, Voltaire (deliberately obvious example), precisely because we've grown up privileged enough to have been taught _Candide_? I would not argue that it is my place to deny another student that same privilege: familiarity with a text that is both influential and commonly referred to throughout the history of world literature. (And no, in this context--in the context of literary influence--the fiction of Robert Gluck is not as important historically as the satires of Voltaire.) I would argue that, generally, it is more useful for a student to know Voltaire than it is for h/e/i/r/m to know *my* published work. With all due respect, isn't the fetishization of non-autonomy predicated on an elitist preconception of autonomy in the first place? How did we arrive at this lofty position--to be able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist and which is not? All the best, Rob Hardin http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:30:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: fwd: umn tenure code revisions Comments: To: zemka@SPOT.COLORADO.EDU, ecohen@zodiac.rutgers.edu, carlston@leland.Stanford.EDU, Chang-En@hermes.bc.edu, JDILEO@ucs.indiana.edu, czpg@musica.mcgill.ca, agillman@ACS1.BU.EDU, ucnsk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu, KLinde@cms.cc.wayne.edu, nate_mackey@macmail.ucsc.edu, karenm@walker.mus.mn.us, manowak@alex.stkate.edu, perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu, jays@sirius.com, von6@midway.chicago.edu, varahar@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA friends: for those of you who've asked for further details, and also because i've been requested to by the folks who are spearheading faculty opposition to the abolition of tenure at the U of MN, i'm forwarding the faculty consultative committee's response to the threat to tenure at the U of MN. it could happen to you too... bests, maria d From: Tom Walsh Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:40:54 -0500 To: ufa@mnhepo.hep.umn.edu Subject: National Message The following email was sent to all University of Minnesota faculty by the chairs of the Senate committess responsible for the Minnesota tenure code. It was sent Friday, September 6, 1996. The mail header has been removed and a couple of line breaks and tabs have been fixed. Otherwise, it is unchanged. We are sending this to you for your information. The actual new tenure code can be found in text form at http://mnnt1.hep.umn.edu/ufa/, which will enable you to compare this document with the code. The new code was developed by the regents together with their consultant Richard Chait and also Martin Michaelson of the Washington, DC firm of Hogan & Hartson. As best we can tell, the code was worked out between June and the release date of September 5. We are not aware of anyone outside this group who knew of the provisions before release. We regard this code as the prototype of tenure revisions which other university governing boards will attempt to impose in coming years. It is therefore of national interest. Paula Rabinowitz, Department of English Thomas Walsh, Department of Physics University Faculty Alliance University of Minnesota ------------------------------ Dear Colleagues, Our attempt to reach a compromise on revision of the Tenure Regulations has failed. The Regents have proposed new amendments at their meeting on Thursday. In effect, they have accepted the parts of the Faculty Senate draft in which the faculty made compromises and rejected the parts in which the administration recognized faculty concerns. Far from being a compromise, the new proposal goes well beyond any prior administration proposal. The Regents have asked that the faculty complete review of their new draft within a month, so that they can take final action on October 10. The draft contains the most substantial changes in tenure policy that have been put forward here in over 50 years. To meet this hectic schedule, the faculty committees will meet in the week of September 16, and the Faculty Senate will meet on the first day of classes, September 26. The Regents put forward their proposal over President Hasselmo's strenuous opposition. Given the manner in which the proposal was prepared, the extremely limited opportunity for faculty consultation on the draft, and their unwillingness to discuss with us the merits of various proposals, we must conclude that they intend to move forward on this proposal. At this point, we can only summarize the major parts of the proposal. Other details will be provided later. Major points are: 1. FIRING FACULTY IN CASE OF PROGRAM CHANGE. The proposal eliminates the tenure protection currently available in cases of program change. It provides: --60 days' notice of programmatic change. (There is no other provision for faculty participation in these decisions.) --reassignment or retraining of tenured faculty, unless "in the University's judgment" this would be "not practicable." (Note that it does not require that reassignment or retrainging be "impracticable," but only that the "University's judgment" be such. Give the distinction of the Regents' Washington lawyers who prepared this language, it is apparent that the intent was to exclude any subsequent review of the decision.) --one year's notice of termination be given. --there is no definition of "program," so a single faculty member could be targeted by defining that individual's specialization for elimination. 2. REDUCTIONS IN BASE PAY. The proposal eliminates the guarantee of base pay contained in the current regulations. Instead, it would provide that "Absent reasons found to be compelling by the Board of Regents or its delegate," "it is expected that" base pay would be protected. Again, carefully note the drafting. The first of these clauses does NOT require "compelling reasons" before reducing base pay; it only requires that the administrator STATE that his reasons are compelling. The second clause does not guarantee base salary, but only articulates a general and vague expectation in that regard. The language eliminates any legal claim to base pay. The language, as drafted, would permit reductions of salary targeted at single individuals. (The statement in the Star-Tribune this morning that such pay cuts could only be imposed on groups of faculty, not on individuals, was apparently based on the oral statements of the Regents' lawyer in describing the plan. An examination of the actual text reveals no such limitation.) Indeed, the new languageprovides no effective protection of salary. The provision also cuts off any review of such issues by the Judicial Committee, even in cases of alleged violation of academic freedom. 3. POST TENURE REVIEW. The post tenure review process has been substantially rewritten. Rather than the remedial process we proposed, seeking to improve the performance of faculty experiencing difficulties, the provision in now primarily punitive in orientation, emphasizing dismissal and salary reduction. It now permits annual 10% salary reductions ad infinitum. Many of the procedural protections have been removed. 4. FACULTY DISCIPLINE. The faculty discipline section represents a radical departure from existing rules. It introduces surprising new language. For example, faculty members may be punished if they do not "maintain . . . a proper attitude of industry and cooperation with others within and without the University community." Discipline, including dismissal may be imposed when "commonly held standards of conduct" (not further specified) are violated. A new ground for firing a faculty member, "other grave misconduct" is added. A whole new category of "lesser sanctions" is created, including PAY CUTS (which may be permanent and are not limited in amount) and suspensions from duty. These may be imposed by the administrator after notice and an opportunity to respond, but the discipline "need not involve formal proceedings of any kind." For example, this would authorize a dean to impose a permanent 50% pay cut without a hearing before an impartial body. The Judicial Committee is also excluded from review of these actions, although the faculty member might file a grievance with an outside arbitrator. 5. JUDICIAL COMMITTEE PROCEDURES. Although access to the Judicial Committee has been cut off in many cases--including many possible cases involving academic freedom issues--new major restrictions are imposed upon the operation of the Judicial Committee. These include: --Judicial committee proceedings will be presided over by a law officer, who must not be a faculty member. --The President will no longer be required to respect the Judicial Committee's report and recommendation. The current regulations contain a legal limitation (he can overrule the committee only for "compelling reasons") and a procedural check (he can do so only after meeting with the Judicial Committee). The Regents' draft deletes both provisions, giving the President total freedom to ignore the hearing panel's report. --The new draft permits a dean to suspend a faculty member without pay, in certain circumstances, while a proceeding to dismiss is underway. * * * Two other points should be made: Some of the proposed changes track language in other universities' tenure regulations. But those universities may have long-established practices or other policies that effectively limit the exercise of the power granted by the tenure codes there. If we adopt the bare language of those universities, but not the other limitations that exist there, we will be deviating sharply from the norm. There seems to be no effort to simultaneously adopt the practices of other institutions. Given the radical nature of these changes, this is not merely an attempt to respond to the Faculty Senate proposals. It seeks to impose a radical changes in the relations of faculty, administration, and Regents. Given the controversy that has been generated, we must assume that the Board intends to exercise fully the powers that they are creating by these changes. Take these proposals seriously and act accordingly. The Regents intend to act on them on October 10. Sincerely yours FRED L. MORRISON, Professor of Law MARY DEMPSEY, Professor of Biochemistry VIRGINIA GRAY, Professor of Political Science ED FOGELMAN, Professor of Political Science DAN FEENEY, Professor of Small Animal Clinical Science Chairs of the respective Faculty Senate Committees ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:33:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? carnography rites: ..to be able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist and which is not? i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next project...bests to you, rob xo, md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: The Rutgers Conference Before I forget, someone asked about the Rutgers conference on "Poetry and the Public Sphere" which I have info. on. It's April 24-27, and the person to call is Nick Yasinski (908-745-9685); fax: 908-932-1150. Romana Huk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:00:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: fwd: umn tenure code revisions maria, esp. after reading item 4 (which warrants a collective FUCK YOU to the regents) in conjunction with my rereading of late of _discipline and punish_, sounds an awful lot like the sorts of pressures we've been experiencing here at iit (and with only some success here at mitigating such attempts---the jury is still out on revised tenure & promotion procedures, esp. now that they've eliminated the position of provost on my campus)... thanx for sending that along, i'll spread it mself through other channels... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:28:24 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: UNH Again Dear Alan Golding, Still awake at the end and wondering was that, in there, DAVID Bromide at the conference? best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:45:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" >George Bowering added ("I'm more into...") >> >> >damon writes: >> > >> >> But more to the point, haven't we learned anything from the last 30 >> >> years of theory? do we really still have to fetishize "actual texts" >> > >> >Personally, they're my favorite, next to rubber clothing and satin >> >shoes with spike heels! >> > >> >Kinkily, >> >Mike >> >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca >> >> I'm more into handcuffs and Charles Reznikoff poems. > >That's what he says for public consumption, but stripped down I hear >it's all lacy underthings and Adelaide Crapsey. >Rachel Not really lacy, but they have to be well-made, and of superior quality. I was taught this by Mark Wallace. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Assembling - Appreciations - Issues Suddenly, it seems invidious to do what I first considered: to go through the programme and pick out those papers or readings which struck me. I got something from nearly everything I attended (and it was impossible, sadly, to attend everything), especially since I still consider myself a 'sometime' or 'amateur' reader of this work. And there seems little real benefit in reiterating a sense of the greatness of what we mostly agree is great. So pick out, instead, some work/issues which relate closely to your/our specific concerns which might not otherwise have received some attentions they deserve. This isn't true of - the first plenary session, esp. Peter Middleton and Keith Tuma, which addressed a central concern of the conference: the differing 'contexts/histories/localities/institutions' of alternative poetries in (primarily) the UK and US. I can't, don't dare attempt to summarize Middleton or Tuma in a couple of sentences. I hardly dare to speak openly, or to align myself anywhichhow. After, all, I write from UKania (see Middleton). But I understand myself a little better, and can see how life might be lived 'elsewhere'. If for no other reason the conference succeeded because many participants did raise, address and discuss - formally and informally - these issues, an explicit aim of the organizers. - The fine reading of post-Mao poetry from mainland China and its contexts by Jeff Twitchell-Waas, along with the spectacular readings of particular works of so-called Chinese 'language' poets (and in a separate, second paper [critical over-compensation foul!?] a couple of well-known North American 'language' luminaries) by Ming-Qian Ma. The Chinese stuff is a special, quasi-professional interest of my own and came as unexpected bonus in the AA context (in which I particiapated for other reasons). Neither speaker addressed the question, but I now wonder whether/how the inclusion of papers on contemporary Chinese poetry, and the presence of a fine Chinese critic, serves to balance some of the remarks/criticisms raised (in the conference's 'postcolonial' moments) about the apparent failure of AA to embrace conspicuously absent alternative poetries. And I answer myself: it doesn't seem to? Why don't we see the inclusion/exclusion of Chinese poetry as a race/identity issue? Why isn't Chinese poetry black poetry? Is it because, as the translator Arthur Cooper put it, the Chinese are 'the other Greeks'? Because theirs is *the* other imperial culture, such that we entertain an absolute disregard and an absolute reverence for Chinese culture *at one and the same time*? Our subordinating/post-colonizing racism seems to dissolve or get lost in the orientalism we project onto Chinese culture as it is reflected back to us - instaneously - as occidentalism. There is something of critical/political importance in this which I/we/they/you must think about. - The opportunity to meet and talk with other poets (Jim Rosenberg, Loss Glazier, Chris Funkhouser) working in/with electronic media. A confirmation of the sense that the poetics we may encounter or develop 'beyond codexspace' relate strongly to the poetics of the writing which was well represented at the conference, or as Loss Glazier has already put it so well (his caps), 'the formal issues about writing at the heart of experimental poetries ARE THE SAME ISSUES being explored by the literary electronic media.' - Finally, and most interestingly to me, I came away from the conference, unexpectedly, with a new sense of the centrality of performance, performance writing, writing as performance. So many of the finest readers were reading-performance (Retallack, Scalapino, Spahr, Robertson, Harryman, Bergvall, Templeton, and/or in a direct-(gendered)-speed-voice-embodied-linkage of language/performance: Raworth, Champion). Because, perhaps, concerns shared in performance might allow the uncompromising inclusion of those absent other alternatives (?in the same sort of way that language poetry has been able to [unexpectedly?] ally/align itself with sound/concrete/visual precursors and colleagues). Because performance also characterizes qualities of the performative (and even, in a strictly *limited* sense 'interactive') literacy which is made possible or accessible by electronic media, leading to - the performance of literary objects (themselves). - - - - - > John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] ^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^ 1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/ < - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poet, critic, he loves me, he loves me not >Reading Emerson's "The Poet"--the very first sentence contains the >spectacular phrase "esteemed umpires of taste"-- > >so what do you gotta do to get to first base? > >Gwyn Well, if it's with me, just buy me a pastrami sandwich and get me a little drunk on belgian beer. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:14 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets) I'm not sure about this equal time for poets and critics thing, although I absolutely agree that we should all be answerable and that criticism may be as artful and fulfulling as any other form of life. I liked what Romana Huk said in reply, 'I must say that the problem never crossed my mind. I thought: all day to the conference (with an hour and a half for afternoon readings) and all night to the readings. What would have been more fair? Most of the poets coming to the conference felt that they needed to read as well as give papers, so I accommodated them to the extent that I could, never even thinking this might be a problem for the critics.' Then I think: if giving more/equal time to the critics means having to listen to still more written-papers-read-out-loud (and with them *still* running over their 20 mins, eating into precious [framed] discussion time), then *hold on*. Bring back the Cultural Revolution! and let's institute instead an absolute ban on the ill- or misuse of a lively and flexible medium -- the talk, the lecture, the oration. If we have to listen to even more fine criticism then let's at least agree to leave our papers in our brief cases when we meet and talk face to faces. Sometimes I can't understand how the reading-of-papers form has survived, unless it is as the most refined example of the internalization of literacy, muting a paralysed orality in the very act of a particular form of utterance. I'm not being logocentric about this (honest). And I understand the need both to defend oneself against the fear of uncertain, indeterminate exposure, and to display the pleasures and refinements of a considered literacy (as in most of the poetry we heard _read_), but so much potential seems to be swept aside by the relentless eyes-down read-through. Some of the speakers (poets mostly I think) made gestural, performative (see subject line: 'Assembling - Appreciations - Issues') reference to this (perennial) problem -- cris cheek and, as Bill L. mentioned, Fiona Templeton as she (literally) undressed the panel-bearing table (which Steve McC. later reclad and regendered). If 'genres are fluid, hybrid, etc. etc.' (M.P.) and the work of poets and critics share the same spaces, then at least let's continue to problematize the singularly lifeless pseudo-orality of the 'read paper'. - - - - - > John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] ^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^ 1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/ < - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:29:47 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire Judy Roitman's assumption about umpires that they are for base- or sfot- ball shd not so lightly disregard the possibility of Emersonian cricket. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: fwd: umn tenure code revisions joe a writes: > maria, esp. after reading item 4 (which warrants a collective FUCK YOU to > the regents) in conjunction with my rereading of late of _discipline and > punish_, sounds an awful lot like the sorts of pressures we've been > experiencing here at iit (and with only some success here at mitigating > such attempts---the jury is still out on revised tenure & promotion > procedures, esp. now that they've eliminated the position of provost on my > campus)... > > thanx for sending that along, i'll spread it mself through other channels... > yeah, thanks you, joe, sorry all for co-opting the precious list-space for matters decidedly unpoetic, but if you'd all just forward the msg to all the other lists yr on i'd be most grateful, or to administrators at your respective institutions, so we can get some censure of these folks going...and then not another word from me on the subject, i promise.bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:13:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Dan Davidson We have some sad news to deliver. San Francisco poet Daniel Davidson died Saturday night, apparently by his own hand, after many years of pain following open heart surgery. Details are sketchy at this point, but more detailed obituaries will follow. I (Dodie) met Dan in the mid-80s (actually got to know him, since I'd seen him around) at the UCSF medical center where I was a temp secretary and he was coming frequently for follow-up for his heart surgery. He and I spend many an evening together discussing writing, living, music, art (and drugs). We were both avid about Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time" and sometimes we'd shut up long enough to listen to it at his apartment on Haight Street. I've never seen anyone live more grandly on a fixed income than Dan--he was amazing. Bringing home castoff clothing from the Salvation Army, dyeing them black, and cutting such a dashing figure. At that time Dan hadn't published much, but shortly afterward he became an important figure in the Bay Area writing scene, writing, giving readings, curating series. He taught an after-school program for small children at Small Press Traffic when it was still on 24th Street. I (Kevin) remember Dan always in the audience at every kind of poetry reading you could imagine, always with his own determined take on things. Perhaps because he came to poetry late, he was burning up with poetry fever, and he could be exhausting in his naked need to know more. And because he had this plastic heart valve he often thought of himself as not having much time. He was generous to a wide variety of young writers and attentive to his elders. I was glad to be able to write a "blurb" for his first book "Product." In recent years I didn't see him around much. Couldn't figure it out. The last reading I saw him give was with Bob Perelman at New Langton Arts, and when was that? At least 2 years ago. He shied away from all the events he used to shine at. Last month when Anselm Berrigan and Katie Lederer left for parts East, Dan came to the party for them--still Byronic, still dashing, but gray, gray.... and he and I talked then about this and that. God! The ironic thing is that he was scheduled to participate in the "Proliferation 3" reading Dodie and Mary Burger are holding at Small Press Traffic this coming Friday (the 13th). And now their plans are to make it into some kind of memorial in his honor, I guess. Sorry to fill up the bandwidth with all this info about Dan and us, but as you can see, we have the kind of grief that's hard to take hold of and make sense of--a grief not unmixed with guilt. I know that the book Dan wrote with Tom Mandel is coming out soon, the collaboration from Poets and Potes Press of which he was so pleased and so proud. That's something, tho' right now I don't know what. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? fetish? Ron, The problem may be with my elipses obscuring the quote, but I take _passively accepted, consumed_ to be the operative words so that zines could as you say become a fetish, but as lbd says, this is an example of a self-determined culture, not _the_ self-determined culture, no? all the best tom At 04:21 PM 9/8/96 -0400, Carnography wrote: >Thomas Bell: > >> the new TRR intro by luigi-bob drake - "literary "canon' is presented as >> something to be passively accepted, consumed like all the other commodities >> we poor plebes are expected to blindly buy....in contrast we see the >> micropress movement is an example of self-determined culture, and a chance >> for real change." > >What is the difference between fetishizing "The Canon" and fetishizing zine/ >small press culture? Either way, one foregrounds the idea that the text >is defined not by the reader's experience of it, but rather by its location: >by the context of the text's mere *publication*. > >Also: Aren't we in a position to renounce, say, Voltaire (deliberately >obvious example), precisely because we've grown up privileged enough >to have been taught _Candide_? I would not argue that it is my place >to deny another student that same privilege: familiarity with a text >that is both influential and commonly referred to throughout the history >of world literature. (And no, in this context--in the context of literary >influence--the fiction of Robert Gluck is not as important historically >as the satires of Voltaire.) I would argue that, generally, it is more >useful for a student to know Voltaire than it is for h/e/i/r/m to know >*my* published work. With all due respect, isn't the fetishization >of non-autonomy predicated on an elitist preconception of autonomy >in the first place? How did we arrive at this lofty position--to be >able to judge for everyone else which work is inherently elitist >and which is not? > >All the best, > >Rob Hardin > >http://www.interport.net/~scrypt > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 00:07:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Assembling - General - Respect! [I've a number of brief reports/responses I'd like to make, on the conference and to the subsequent discussions, and I've decided to separate them into posts with, hopefully, indicative, relevant subject lines.] This conference was a wonderful event. Romana Huk should *not* take herself to task for any 'bad organization and lack of experience in running conferences'. AA worked and it worked well. Both those of us fortunate enough to be invited to contribute and those who were provoked or inspired to attend were presented with a full, rich and various programme/art. If there was insufficient *(formally) framed* discussion, if certain issues/groups/persons went unrepresented, then this is also the responsibility of us others, including those who were not there. In conception and development an agenda seems full of potential; after the meeting we are overwhelmed by the inevitable and arbitrary aspects of 'what actually took place'. I know that Romana worked hard to try and convey to contributors how they might focus on specific issues, but ... No conference will ever cover the full range of (relevant) concerns which at any one moment engages (even) any one of its participants. So what. No participant ever seems to produce a contribution (or a reading of the papers or talks) that is exactly what is asked/expected of her. So what. The information:noise / art:noise ratio of this event was, imho, excellent. Perhaps there is little more that can be expected of such a difficult form as the 'conference', and its combination with a 'festival' (art:noise) aspect is still all too rare and valuable. Romana Huk deserves our heartfelt thanks and deep respect. - - - - - > John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] ^ innovative literary translation from Chinese ^ 1 Grove End House 150 Highgate Road London NW5 1PD UK Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk http://www.demon.co.uk/eastfield/ < - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 22:38:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 7 Sep 1996 to 8 Sep 1996 In-Reply-To: <199609090402.AAA21998@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Romana's analysis of the Irish situation is extremely helpful! Thanks, Romana, I hope you'll write more on this topic. Your commentary really explained a lot. I know a little bit about the attempt to bridge the gap from Michael Schmidt at PN Review but now I know more. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:13:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire >Judy Roitman's assumption about umpires that they are for base- or >sfot- ball shd not so lightly disregard the possibility of >Emersonian cricket. best > >Tony Green, >e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz What the heck is Emersonian Cricket? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:07:04 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Assembling Alternative UK Criticism I was really glad for Joe Amato's statement that we could safely assume on this list that we're not talking about most critics (Ron Silliman's justified attacks on Altieri etc notwithstanding). Because there still seems to be so much prejudice against critics. I think it's groovy that, as Romana puts out, the by now infamous unnamed Irish poet did go away with new books to read. But does that amount to an openness to those books? Or are they simply (as Derrida says critically about Freud's reading of The Emperor Has No Clothes story as being essentially about nakedness) going to use the "new" books to stage repetitions of their old solipsisms? A lot of Uk "linguistically innovative" writers present a thinker as the guarantor of their work, without letting you say "how, given this and this", "why that thinker?", "why do you think that's what that thinker means?", a key idea for Derrida, one of the finest poets living. This critic/poet issue is crucial for current UK practice, because there simply is less exchange than in the US Language Writing scene. You can trace the way that Language Writers gave each other paradigms, accepting gracefully, not being scared to resemble each other; where UK poets often have to say "I saw it first, or, if you did, I can't use it". This was going to be the subject of the paper I offered to Romana for AA, though there was no money to go (and Romana battled to get me there till a week before). I'm *not* saying I critic wish to control this situation and, if possible, somehow punish bad behaviour; I'm actually saying that I cherish poetic culture, and that critic-baiting solipsism endangers it. People are so scared of poetry and it is important to be careful and scrupulous towards them. Many many poets, in my opinion, unconsciously love this fear of poetry in their audience and use it to counterbalance their own fear of presenting their work in public - but it would be better if they did some confidence training! Otherwise, the fearful reader comes into the reading and is, I think, overwhelmed by the potentials of what might be (as people are when first hearing a piece of complex music longer and more various than a pop song, Philip Glass thus not included on the latter count); "where might this go next? anywhere! madness! revelation!" you hear the audience's brains going. If a poet says "here is the return of the Irish longpoem", many audience members will take it in, without thinking what long and short might mean, and repeat it to others and by canon-idealism refuse to read work that differs from that canon-definition; and, again, I think many poets want this, to pull up the ladder behind them, to be the Last Poet. But it destroys poetic culture, it privatises it round that one poet. Sometimes I think, with Chris F perhaps?, there should be no criticism *whatsoever*, although I for one used Marjorie's books as a bible/anthology (like a younger generation carried The New American Poetry round?) more than In The American Tree (tho this has become my favourite book, it took me years, literally, via Marjorie, to get into it, to know how to stand in it, to not feel scared and lost and I want to go home). But then this is why, as somebody indicated shouldn't be said, poets should be told as forcefully as critics are being on this list (another false dichotomy: poets are easily hurt, critics can take it) to shut up; no remarks at all. Or be more accurate. Because either the former, silence, or the latter, accuracy, respects the fear of the newcomer but allows the newcomer respect and space and slow careful nurturing into poetic culture (which is a way of being, as Cage might have said, not a cult round an author; it is the author's privilege to facilitate it, to stimulate it not frame it with one's art). If it is aggression by a critic, to say shut up, it is on behalf of the audience and, indeed, the higher way that the poet could enjoy if more in tune with the audience. This poet/critic thread is not irrelevant to a conference bringing together (primarily) Uk poets and Us Language Writers; it may well be not what a lot of people want to come out of AA, but it is a key issue in British experimental poetry, which has a much smaller regular audience than a lot of US poets of similar publication longevity, and, I think, largely deserves it, in acting fearfully towards fear. Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Welcome Message Because there are so many new people on this list, I thought we should replay an old favorite. FYI: as of this morning there are 401 subscribers to this list. --jk ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo ____________________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ____________________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Who's Subscribed 4. Digest Option 5. When you'll be away 6. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 7. Poetics Archives at EPC 8. Publishers & Editors Read This! [This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@acsu.buffalo. edu) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu).] ____________________________________________________________________ 1. About the Poetics List Please note that this is a private list and information about the list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list small and the volume manageable. Word-of-mouth (and its electronic equivalents) seems to be working fine. The "list owner" of Poetics is Charles Bernstein: contact me for further information. As of May, Joel Kuszai is working with me to administer the list. For subscription information contact us at POETICS@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU ____________________________________________________________________ 2. Subscriptions The list has open subscriptions. 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You can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending a message: You can temporarily turn off your mail by sending a message: set poetics nomail & turn it on again with: set poetics mail When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics archive. (See 7 below.) ____________________________________________________________________ 6. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? our URL is http://writing.upenn.edu/epc The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center provides access to the burgeoning number of electronic resources in the new poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. And we have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets' reading their work, as well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series. The EPC is directed by Loss Pequen~o Glazier. ____________________________________________________________________ 7. Poetics Archives via EPC Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. Or set your browser to go directly to: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/archive ____________________________________________________________________ 8. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list of your press/publications to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your word processor ill save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly desirable Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. 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Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:22:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire In-Reply-To: George, Emersonian Cricket is when you hit the ball with the paddle hard enough to awaken it to the beauty of nature and the transcendental world beyond this one. In this way it vaguely resembles Zen Lacrosse. Gwyn "Kwatzu! Gesundheit!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Assembling - Appreciations - Issues Re: John Cayley's comments. I did think that the inclusion of Chinese material was a good thing and did go against the whiteness of the conference. My only comment there would be that their work was billed as "Language writing"--in other words, they're included because they're "like us," as it were. I'll say no more because unfortunately (I gave a paper at the same time) I was unable to attend that panel. all best, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Art on the Edge of Fashion (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:34:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Christina Fairbank Chirot To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo Subject: Art on the Edge of Fashion re: "From Outlaw to Classic'-fashion to museum--alternative to academy etc 'Art on the Edge of Fashion' at the Arizona State University Art Museum focuses on contemporary art that uses the highly readable visual language of clothing and fashion. Invitation/Preview/Press Information WebPage... http://asuam.fa.asu.edu/artedge/artedge.htm Eight artists from across the U.S. and Canada are featured in the exhibition: Charles LeDray (New York), Christine LoFaso (Chicago), Kerrie Peterson (Los Angeles), Elaine Reichek (New York), Beverly Semmes (New York), Jana Sterbak (Quebec), Nick Vaughn (Albuquerque), and Annie Wilson (Chicago). February 1, 1997 through April 27, 1997. --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:52:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: poetry & baseball (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:52:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Christina Fairbank Chirot To: poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: poetry & baseball re comment using baseball as analogy for "playing it safe" in poetry-- not so for Jack Spicer or Larry Eigner Eigner early an avid listener to Red Sox games, used baseball statistics as way to develp memory in terms of visualization for doing mat--also for visualizing words-- Summers I was "good to myself"and every day waited for the Red Sox game on the radio--and you wanted the Red Sox to win today and win tomorrow whether they did or din't today . . . . maybe you're surprised when you forget to the extent you depend on memory . . . . Remember/sabbath days to/keep time still/how multiple . . . Eigner also listened to radio for Cid Corman's poetry show . . . Spicer had his radio, too--the poet as radio--often tuned to baseball games-- "getting to first base"--Eigner has book called A Count of Some Things--from Score publications, Crag Hill's press Spicer: no telling what happened in this game. Except one didn't strike out. One feels they fielded it badly at second base. Oceans of wildflowers. Utter logic of the form and color. "Utter logic"--"speaking in tongues"--visualizing words-- "keep time still/how multiple" Un coup de des n'abolira jamais le hasard . . . . (or as Tug McGraw would say---You Gotta Believe dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: poetry & baseball re comment using baseball as analogy for "playing it safe" in poetry-- not so for Jack Spicer or Larry Eigner Eigner early an avid listener to Red Sox games, used baseball statistics as way to develp memory in terms of visualization for doing mat--also for visualizing words-- Summers I was "good to myself"and every day waited for the Red Sox game on the radio--and you wanted the Red Sox to win today and win tomorrow whether they did or din't today . . . . maybe you're surprised when you forget to the extent you depend on memory . . . . Remember/sabbath days to/keep time still/how multiple . . . Eigner also listened to radio for Cid Corman's poetry show . . . Spicer had his radio, too--the poet as radio--often tuned to baseball games-- "getting to first base"--Eigner has book called A Count of Some Things--from Score publications, Crag Hill's press Spicer: no telling what happened in this game. Except one didn't strike out. One feels they fielded it badly at second base. Oceans of wildflowers. Utter logic of the form and color. "Utter logic"--"speaking in tongues"--visualizing words-- "keep time still/how multiple" Un coup de des n'abolira jamais le hasard . . . . dbc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:08:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: test message Test ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:13:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Dan Davidson was one of the most gifted and alive human beings I have known and I count myself lucky to have come to know him as well as I did, tho never well enough. Only a couple of weeks ago, Dan asked me whether I thought we should send out a couple of earlier collaborative poems we'd done in preparation for Absence Sensorium, and we exchanged email about the production of AS just a few days ago. So I know he was thinking of the future, not of shutting down that future, quite recently. I will miss him terribly. Tom Screen Porch ************************ Tom Mandel * think 202-362-5349 * out fax 202-364-5349 * here tmandel@screenporch.com* ************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:40:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets) just to throw in with john cayley on this question of emedia, and to suggest *one* way to functionalize helpfully: those of you with good internet resources might consider holding a pre-conference salon/symposium (even moo---though i prefer mself the less synchronous fora)... or setting up a provisional web site (which *could* comprise papers, poetry, etc.)... it's been done before, sure, and sometimes to good advantage... i think in fact the poetry/critical thread could have been chewed over some with some positive results before convening... i'm not certain poetics is the place to do this (and i'm not the one to say), but it seems to me that there's a lot of potential for prefacing conferences through the internet... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:02:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Dan Davidson Dear Kevin, Is this the same Daniel Davidson who wrote "Bureaucrat, My Love," some of which appeared in Gertrude Stein Awards in 1993-1994? Douglas At 09:13 PM 9/8/96 +0100, you wrote: >We have some sad news to deliver. San Francisco poet Daniel Davidson died >Saturday night, apparently by his own hand, after many years of pain >following open heart surgery. Details are sketchy at this point, but more >detailed obituaries will follow. > >I (Dodie) met Dan in the mid-80s (actually got to know him, since I'd seen >him around) at the UCSF medical center where I was a temp secretary and he >was coming frequently for follow-up for his heart surgery. He and I spend >many an evening together discussing writing, living, music, art (and >drugs). We were both avid about Messiaen's "Quartet for the End of Time" >and sometimes we'd shut up long enough to listen to it at his apartment on >Haight Street. I've never seen anyone live more grandly on a fixed income >than Dan--he was amazing. Bringing home castoff clothing from the >Salvation Army, dyeing them black, and cutting such a dashing figure. At >that time Dan hadn't published much, but shortly afterward he became an >important figure in the Bay Area writing scene, writing, giving readings, >curating series. He taught an after-school program for small children at >Small Press Traffic when it was still on 24th Street. > >I (Kevin) remember Dan always in the audience at every kind of poetry >reading you could imagine, always with his own determined take on things. >Perhaps because he came to poetry late, he was burning up with poetry >fever, and he could be exhausting in his naked need to know more. And >because he had this plastic heart valve he often thought of himself as not >having much time. He was generous to a wide variety of young writers and >attentive to his elders. I was glad to be able to write a "blurb" for his >first book "Product." In recent years I didn't see him around much. >Couldn't figure it out. The last reading I saw him give was with Bob >Perelman at New Langton Arts, and when was that? At least 2 years ago. He >shied away from all the events he used to shine at. Last month when Anselm >Berrigan and Katie Lederer left for parts East, Dan came to the party for >them--still Byronic, still dashing, but gray, gray.... and he and I talked >then about this and that. God! The ironic thing is that he was scheduled >to participate in the "Proliferation 3" reading Dodie and Mary Burger are >holding at Small Press Traffic this coming Friday (the 13th). And now >their plans are to make it into some kind of memorial in his honor, I >guess. > >Sorry to fill up the bandwidth with all this info about Dan and us, but as >you can see, we have the kind of grief that's hard to take hold of and make >sense of--a grief not unmixed with guilt. I know that the book Dan wrote >with Tom Mandel is coming out soon, the collaboration from Poets and Potes >Press of which he was so pleased and so proud. That's something, tho' >right now I don't know what. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: sans teeth (p lopate) Interesting invisibility of the avant-garde in Phillip Lopate's NY Times Book Review 'bookend' on contemporary American Poetry. Anybody read it? A fairly standard and caustic assessment of workshop poetry (tho Lopate refuses to identify it as such), such as you might see by R. Silliman or C. Bernstein circa 1980, but with this difference--Lopate thinks it just lacks sufficient _molarity_. "Paradoxical as it sounds, American poetry today suffers not from being too personal and confessional, but from being not personal or confessional enough. Often the poet pulls back from providing just those biographical specificities and idiosyncratic reactions that would bring him alive as an authentic individual. Instead, there is a judicious ladling of images and metaphors and sense details to make the poem resemble that craft object, that Procrustean bed, the contemporary American poem; and the poet, abandoning onerous individuality, merges prematurely with the collective ethos. The result is that we do not encounter that many quirky, uniquely voiced individuals in poetry today. What we do encounter is a lot of half-baked sages, speaking piously for their tribal or communal sliver." I'll forswear to kid Lopate's style, which is as monstrously post-Trilling as it gets (judges wield gavels, not ladles, btw), and look at, I mean characterize, his argument (which, echoing the title of the essay, singles out no particular 'weak poet'--David Shapiro's phrase). This is the Tarantino (Spielberg) argument, that American film has gotten too wimpy and needs strong narrative, explicit violence, and a good soundtrack. It is not dissimilar to the Gingrich (Reagan) argument, that American politics needs to put even more power in the hands of the very few who have power. I believe that American poetry does not need greater intensities of personality and confession _from those who would make a career of personality and confession_. No. Some, even a little, fun (in all the late capitalist haze of that word) would be enough to redeem _those_ poets, at least for the page or two one encounters them on when one is uncareful, ambitious, or lonely. As Lopate said nothing about _any other kind of poet_, I'll say nothing about _us_, except that I myself haven't felt the need to listen all the way through a baseball game since October 1986 (Attn: Steve Evans-- a more politic starting time for the current poetic era than 1989?). That probably says more about me than it does about poetry, but I can't believe _everybody_ who talks about 'personism' in terms of 'lucky Pierre' has that wild a life. I would ask any poets reading this list who do _not_ believe that _all_ American poetry today is congruous with Lopate's assessment to write a brief letter stating so to: The Editor New York Times Book Review 229 W 43rd St New York NY 10036 It is not that often that a critic both wrongheaded and genially capable of reading will get in the way so opportunely--anyway. Just thought some of you would enjoy thinking about it. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate) Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread! J ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:20:12 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: critics & Poets Three cheers for Michael Boughn, The argument that criticism could exist without literature has been bunk since the insecure new critics used it to try to shore up their claim to intellectual legitimacy. (Yes, we are as objective as the scientists.) Criticism certainly has a role to play, but to pretend that it could exist w/o literature is as ridiculous as claiming that natural science could exist w/o nature. There is, however, a reciprocity. Critics do help poets: by placing our work in historical context, by evaluating us (sorry, but at some point this is an institutional necessity and it must and will be done--distasteful, though.), by explaining what we do, by championing some of us. We are perhaps in some sort of symbiosis. The irritation at critics, though, has a real basis. When at SUNY-Buffalo I overheard one graduate student in film studies tell another that it was interesting to hear the filmmaker discuss her work because "artists never know what they are really doing." Such critical arrogance is commonplace today: Many critics need to hold on to the naive myth of artists as romantic primitives, bellowing out inspired works that they do not understand. [Note that this myth was applied to artists by Plato and was one of the reasons he banned them from his Republic: they are intuitive and inspired rather than rational.] It serves them well. It makes the critics more important than the artists. finally, marjorie Perloff has done so many poets and the poetry community in general a service by her advocacy of us to other academics and the public at large. I appreciate all that she has done, and I know from her writings that she has more respect and love for art than do most critics. I feel that I can understand why she reads. With many critics, I'm left wondering: Do you actually enjoy reading? Jeff Hansen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:37:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate) In-Reply-To: On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of > mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of > mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread! > > J > Jordan, I don't know yet what the sentence in question was but your choice to take on Lopate seems loaded, overdetermined, in a variety of ways you could profitably acknowledge. Obviously know-body on this list, including and especially me, would agree with the limits of Lopate's configuration. Although, within that configuration, there is much that he says that could do good and be the opposite of the Tarrantino/Gingrich equation you try for. David Shapiro's work is an example of work that does so much more than what Lopate says most postconfessional work does: and as you know Lopate has praised Shapiro's work for that very reason. By the way, what is the 86 versus 89 thing about. I read with interest Dodie's post saying that Hejinian was happy to hear that people said Language poetry had been over for ten years. That seems a healthy and healthful and helpful response on her part, gracious as well. And presumably we can say over in one important sense continuing in another. Aesthetic breakthroughs are there for poets: surrealism is there, seventeenth century poetry is there, if one can make them convincing in one's praxis. So, and I see you were addressing Steve here, but, really, what is our current era. Joseph ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate) In-Reply-To: On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > Well that was a bad sentence. Obviously I mean that Lopate's criticisms of > mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of > mainstream poetry. Have a nice thread! > > J > PS And obviously I also mean that Lopate's criticisms of mainstream poetry are not that different from Langpo's criticisms of mainstream poetry. So though I'm not going to bumrush the times today I agree that everyone should. Not, obviously, under one banner but in the full glory of multiple communities with multiple histories to go with multiple poetics. Joseph ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:09:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: critics & Poets j hansen sez: The irritation at critics, though, has a real basis. When at SUNY-Buffalo I overheard one graduate student in film studies tell another that it was interesting to hear the filmmaker discuss her work because "artists never know what they are really doing." i say: i've observed this too; u of mn grad student criticizing Claude Lanzman, of all people, for his belief that an artist/filmmaker (himself) was really accomplishing something in approaching the unspeakable...they found it theoretically naive. with all respect to grad students on the list, i find this to be more typical of grad students who are learning to be "academics" than of seasoned "critics" or academics who actually interact w/ artists a lot...but much of this is a reaction to the daze when critics/academic saw their primary task as transmitting, with a bullying sort of messianic energy (cf dead poets' society) an uncritical worship of certain texts and certain GENIUSES. etc md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED* re Jeff Hansen's note--the student who thought that artists don't know what they are saying anyway-- Marcel Duchamp liked to point out the phrase, "bete comme un peintre'--say it gave him some 'food for thought" so to speak--to make art that demontrates art as thinking-- of course this has given rise to an industry of interpretations--(among them the Kabbalah as I think some one pointed out in a previous thread--)--leading Robert Smithson to propose Duchamp as an Occultist-- (or a cult figure . . . ) Smithson wrote of an "art of looking"--as opposed to "art objects"-- which leads to one of questions of poets/critics thread--who owns, controls, maps out territories--of what is called poetry--re Emerson--notice ways he discusses property in relation to the poet in "Nature" and "The Poet"-- from "Nature": There is a property in the horizon which no man has but he whose eye can integrate all the parts, that is, the poet." But such discussion also occurs in relation to creation of American 'original relation to the universe"--hence caught up in issue of a National Culture--and becomes complicated-- In "The Poet" : the poet is 'Land-Lord, air-lord, sea-lord"--again poetry and property-- A Russian critic of Marinetti's visit to Russia before WWI pointed out that Marinetti's ruptures of syntax in his Parole in Liberta did not nothing to change property relations since the rights of private property are inscribed in the U.S. Constitution--seems appropriate to examine aspects of the poets/critics threads in the usa in relation to mapping of territories, controlling and owning of such, distribution of it . . . presentation of poetry via the academy--what is taught in classrooms--as this may have as much effect long term as criticism etc--(this list after all being presented through academic system) and this in relation to debates going on over dissemination and control of e networks, e mail--and virtual reality, cyberspace-- so here a conference on aspects of virtual art which may be of interest dbchirot ---------- F orwarded message - --------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:56:18 +0100 From: NECHVATAL Joseph To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Subject: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED* I am serving on the advisory board for an upcoming International Conference entitled "CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED" which is being conducted at CAiiA, the Centre for Advanced Inquiry in the Interactive Arts, at the University of Wales. We are holding this International Conference on July 5,6 in 97. My area of interest involves VR & theoretical avant-garde artistic spacial constructs of VR information. The topic heading will be : " Deframed Perceptual Spaces : mirrorings, imaginings, replicas & copies of mirrored images". There are other topics groups in development as well. Here they all are: * Mapping and Responsive Visualisations * Public-Personal * Sonic Reembodiment/Disembodiment * Left Brain Navigation * Cyberception and Paranature * The Cybernetics of Architecture * Community of Ahomogeneous Systems * Dream Consciousness Reality * Transformations and Future Body I'm looking for avant-garde art related papers on these subjects. If interested please contact me at: jnech@imaginet.fr Feel free to circulate this notice. Joseph Nechvatal @ Paris http://www.dom.de/arts/artists/jnech/ http://www.cybertheque.fr/galerie/jnech Data only becomes information if it changes something. --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:54:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: sans teeth (p lopate) Jordan, Thank you for so eloquently summing up my frustrations at Lopate's pot shots. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: mookie (loop) ten years after I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986 (glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's (unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that _even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like 'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper' to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_ my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics. Okay! Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:35:50 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: "Poets vs. Critics" Good move, Dodie. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 13:50:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? This thread arose directly out of critic/poet thread. >i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical >head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next >project...bests to you, rob xo, md If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" would be a tad confusing to those academics. Correct me if i am wrong - is it not true that the majority of publishing poets today are associated with universities? Is it not true that 99% of the (limited) money to be made in poetry; whether grants, stipends, (royalties - granted I'm sure there is not a lot of that), or salaries go to those in the academy? It strikes me that the assembling of alternatives would entail getting the poet who goes into the prisons and workshops with prisoners, or the poets who recite verse on the subway on the weekends to the upwardly mobile and homeless. Nirvana at the end was so alternative you could see their "alternativeness" in every record store in the land. They were so alternative Cobain put a shotgun in his mouth to escape the alternatives. It might make sense within the academy to gather writers together under the auspices of a university and say things like "we were able to gather the entire Irish avante garde together for this conference" or we are "concerned about the lack of people of color at the conference" but don't for a minute believe this is done without elitism. The avante garde cannot be found within the academy no matter how linguistically interesting the work may be. The status quo is in the university and no matter the battles which rage within the academic community of langpo vs not or whatever as long as the status quo resides within the university it cannot honestly claim "alternative" or "avante garde" for itself. I would go so far as to say that since, to my limited knowledge, poetry has never been involved to a great extent in the commercial realm that Bob Holman's producing of poetry shows for Toyota is far more avante garde than anything at all going on in the academy. To that extent (mt)v is far more avante garde as well in that it has given voice to poetry outside of the academy as well. Today's situation is analogous IMHO to the soviet era of the writer's union. Far more valuable work is going on now within the "union" but please don't pretend it's not a union. "Inherent elitism" is not nonsensical to me. cf >i rite: huh? where in the thread did "inherent elitism" rear its nonsensical >head? never mind...i sd i'd retire..just procrastinating on my next >project...bests to you, rob xo, md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:17:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? filch rites: If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" would be a tad confusing to those academics. i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word "elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, and one should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things. md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 14:56:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? I publicly apologize to Maria. Upon rereading my post it is indeed too confrontational. I believe my points are valid but my tact is lacking. pher >filch rites: >If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry >they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" >would be a tad confusing to those academics. > >i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word >"elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged >onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, >and one >should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a >stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things. >md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? hey wow. i'm touched. i guess my point is that i've seen the term "elitist" used in so many contradictory ways (but always negative) that anyone can call anything elitist and have it mean not much more than "i feel left out." i was a die-hard anti-elitist as a grad student in stanford's modern thought and lit, and was mortified to see a profile of our program characterize the student body as a group who "enjoyed their status as a small and selective elite." then i came to the u of mn, a huge public landgrant univ, whose lack of "real" elitism led to a yucky kind of status anxiety on the part of faculty etc; they outdid each other in wearing tweed, going to the symphony, bewailing low student achievement --and calling those of us who were younger and theory-literate both "elite" and "yahooistic" depending on immediate context. my students, as i've said, use the word "elitist" to describe a text containing words that are more than two syllables. at the same time, they expect their college education to give them a familiarity w/ "the classics" that will enable them to get a good money-making job...the contradictions are endless and obvious. etc.md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I publicly apologize to Maria. Upon rereading my post it is indeed too > confrontational. > > I believe my points are valid but my tact is lacking. > > pher > > >filch rites: > >If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry > >they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" > >would be a tad confusing to those academics. > > > >i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word > >"elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged > >onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, > >and one > >should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not > a > >stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things. > >md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:19:55 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets) John Cayley's comments on the Rite of Reading Papers (= Conference) hit home. Recently there was an invitation to a Visual Poetry Conference. In an e-mail exchange I learned that if I was unable to go (New Zealand to Canada) to the Conference, I could send a poster. I enquired whether the poster was to represent a paper or a visual poem. No reply. At a conference here in Auckland this year, the problem of appropriate discourse came up again, a conference on Narrative. Should a conference on narrative consist of critical papers on narrative or should it largely consist of narrations which concerned, or related to, the "conceptual" base ((avoiding the word "theory" here)) of narrative? Where's the differences, then?. Between conference papers and narratives? between philosophical, conceptually analytical discourses, and narrative? what would Plato have to say? reading The Protagoras last week, I note that Platos has Socrates begin by telling the story of his encounter with Protagoras. Protagoras, at one point in this story, asks Socrates and the other persons present, whether he should explain something or tell a story. He tells a story which turns into an explanation as it goes, that is to take advantage of the narrqative by pointing to what is ssalient to his "argument". Plato also represents even the longest of the discourses as if they are spoken and off the cuff at that. What authorises the peculiar practice of the modern academic conference? in which there is a cleqr divide between speaker and listener roles, often with little chance for discusssion. best Protagoras last week3sanrratives Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:02:42 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: test message Yout test score: 100% Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:00:15 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry & baseball + RADIO English writers of a certain age will find it difficult to evade acknowledging the influence on poetics of such grand figures as Raymond Glendenning and John Arlott. Rado commentators on sports action perform what I take to be an important language/poetic function. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:14:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Notice to critics, writers and/or readers -- E-Zine since everyone else is posting ezine info on the web, here is mine: i am assistant editor at an ezine on the web called Free Cuisenart, the literary magazine for Creative Coalition of Artists (CCA), the site organized about a year ago to fight censorship on the net Free Cuisenart had a special international issue in August featuring Viktor Carr's essay on growing up in Croatia, poems by Karen McKevitt, Tom Hubschman, Martin Auer, Jim Gourley, and Liz Thelen, and a short story by Trevor Reeves. The August "Wowzine" issue can be found at: http://www.stjpub.com/cca/fca.html This month's issue has an interview with Stephen Williamson (editor and co-creator of _Motley Focus Locus_), poems by LeeAnn Heringer, Ray Heinrich, Taylor Graham, Bruce Bentzman, Sean Curtis Brendan-Brown, David Kitchel, Michael McNeilley, Richard Fein, and CyberClem, a story by Trevor Reeves, and an incredible poem/essay on living in Canada by semi-regular to regular (he is charmingly noncommittal) Viktor Carr. All the work, of course, is incredible and i don't just say that because i work there. we are always looking for readers, of course, but we are also looking for writers. if you'd like to send us work, the email address is: jordanh@iquest.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:38:56 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: *CONSCIOUSNESS REFRAMED* Comments: To: Christina Fairbank Chirot On 9 Sep 96 at 12:09, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote: > Marcel Duchamp liked to point out the phrase, "bete comme un > peintre'--say it gave him some 'food for thought" so to speak--to > make art that demontrates art as thinking-- For the few of us out here who don't speak French: What does that phrase mean? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:20:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poet, critic, & umpire >George, Emersonian Cricket is when you hit the ball with the paddle hard >enough to awaken it to the beauty of nature and the transcendental world >beyond this one. In this way it vaguely resembles Zen Lacrosse. > >Gwyn "Kwatzu! Gesundheit!" Ah! It sounds a lot like what we call Shelleyan Badminton. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 00:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: duchamp quote Joseph Zitt--apologies for ye elitist untranslated french quote-- bete comme un peintre--means stupid like a painter (bete means beast,animal--so painter a stupid animal, or dumb beast so to speak--)(for the millions of kids who know "bete" from the Disney Beauty and the Beast--"bete" like a painter--might seem a little surprising and funny--) --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after >I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986 >(glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. I believe that the Buckner Bobble was one of those momentous events that you remember the way you remember Kennedy's killing. Like, where were you when Buckner let Mookie's weak grounder go thru him? I was in a bar in Cleveland, watching the game on TV, across the street from Muni Stadium. Unfortunately, I was drinking with a bunch of guys from New York! Damnit! George Butterick was one of them. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:48:19 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: Re: Dan Davidson How emptying to hear of Daniel Davidson's death. My knowledge of him comes from email exchanges over the past few months, a thing or two sent in the mail. Last Thurs he finished a note, Gotta go... good to hear from you. I enjoyed our exchanges, he said he did too, and though there was a strong sense of him, there's also the sense now of how suddenly that's stopped. In the limited way I knew him, much respect, John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:06:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: poet critic critic poet... In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:02:21 -0500 from Have to agree with Joe (hey, I was a main culprit). To criticize the easy critics - why can't the list have several topics going, without getting badmouthed? You want reminiscences about the conference, instead of po/crit debates - ok, just ask for them. You want to discuss something else - fine, bring it up. But don't play the one-up game every time you have an opener. (I'm trying to take my own advice.) Mike Boughn & Joe Amato brought up what seems to me the basic issue, at the root of all the framing discomfort. If poetry is simply a human activity, under human control - then we can make it whatever we want. The categories of poetry/prose/cricitism etc. are up to us. This is a gray area - in a certain sense, it can't be denied - everything is socially constructed. But what I was trying to emphasize, & what the Steiner quote was about (partly), is that in creative work there is a certain rawness, a LOSS of control, a surrender - to inspiration, the Muse, the Other, whatever you want to call it. This is where the rawness, the originality, the ghettoization, the discomfort, the Platonic exile, the glory/shame of it are all about. How much is a scientist "in control" when s/he comes up with an earth-shaking new theory or discovery? Poetry is the surrender to strange coherence (sorry for the "poetry is..." phrase). And if it's purely a strategic choice on my part to try to differentiate between poetry & criticism it's not to ghettoize them or antagonize them but to bring out something that's really there, whether in fusion with criticism or not. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? (filch): >Correct me if i am wrong - is it not true that the majority of publishing >poets today are associated with universities? Is it not true that 99% of >the (limited) money to be made in poetry; whether grants, stipends, >(royalties - granted I'm sure there is not a lot of that), or salaries go >to those in the academy? by my count (& i measure "publishing poets" by the yard, on my overflowing "to be reviewed" shelves), you are _quite_ wrong, in terms of numbers of publishing poets--also in quantity of publications, and i'd guess in readership (dare i wonder outloud, here, about "quantity" vs. "quality"? no, i dare not)... certainly, tho, th majority of criticism published is criticism of poets associated w/ universities (directed to same?); likewise the $$ bit... what's the point? lbd trr/burning press/etc... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: The Rutgers Conference In-Reply-To: Thanks all for the information. Hope to see you there! Julie Schmid ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after In-Reply-To: On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986 > (glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you > say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization > he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to > remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's > (unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that > _even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I > am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like > 'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper' > to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the > one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the > archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't > call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a > possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may > profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long > as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a > given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated > personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you > again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book > Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the > deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv > manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful > ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really > about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and > doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about > the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent > chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings > and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying > something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized > by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_ > my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming > public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter > to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of > underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter > signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words > Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even > if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word > no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and > consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not > proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why > the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or > the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the > context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want > to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a > mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some > focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics. > > Okay! > Jordan > Ok. I only mentioned surrealism and seventeenth century poetry as what is open to being rehistoricized. Silver age, negritude, Carl Sandburg, Dada, all likewise. No one's a sucker and yes we should take the times seriously even as they make it virtually impossible to do so. I agree that Lopate's argument is conservative in one way and I also agree with you that his criticism of mainstream postconfessional stuff is similar to Langpo's. So what to do with that loop. And I certainly wasn't asking you to get postconfessional about a private life (whatever that is, isn't the personal political even when the personal must be exploded in order for ideology to be revealed at work). I think all I meant was isn't Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way. Ok. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:01:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? Comments: To: maria damon In-Reply-To: <3234895f1fd1077@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, maria damon wrote: > filch rites: > If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry > they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" > would be a tad confusing to those academics. > > i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word > "elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets tagged > onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that elitism is bad, and one > should go to any and all measures to avoid being called "elitist." i'm not a > stupid person, and i'm not a bunch of academics calling things things. > md > poets have always written about poetry institutions have always corrupted in any event we are always multiple communities with multiple and simultaneous histories that needs to be the starting point for the context in which to say as Jordan wants to that Lopate's position vis a vis postconfessional isn't tough enough and likewise as filch and md want to that theory and poetics are both here and manifest subject positions coming into being against (sometimes) great social odds ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:04:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: poetics follies (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:17:07 -0400 From: Jordan Davis To: lease@husc.harvard.edu Subject: poetics follies Joseph-- My apologies for any snippiness in the last back to you. I think I got a bit carried away. Lopate's analysis isn't bad--but he's not clear about how much of poetry he's talking about.. that is, his premises are bad. Anyway.. thanks for the lively back and forth. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:18:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after In-Reply-To: On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Joseph Lease wrote: > On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > > > I am referring to the Buckner bobble, of course, as the moment in 1986 > > (glorious revolution?) from which I date this different feeling. If as you > > say my writing against Lopate (from within the offices of an organization > > he practically invented) is 'overdetermined' then I have written so to > > remain within some semblance of the limits of the terms of Lopate's > > (unambiguous) argument. Does this make me a sucker? To want to show that > > _even within Lopate's version of poetry, his argument is conservative?_ I > > am not quite sure what overdetermined might mean here. It sounds like > > 'written in crayon' or 'written as if through forty sheets of carbon paper' > > to me most of the time. Now if you want to read Lopate's argument (from the > > one paragraph I took from a full-page piece) as a variation on the > > archetypal language cry of "Resistance!" then fine. I'm French, I won't > > call that bluff. But I don't see it. Instead, I see a contrarian opening a > > possibility for public non-debate--one in which everyone involved may > > profit in column inches, and in which risk will remain fairly low _as long > > as nobody names names_. Elsewhere in the essay, Lopate seems to take as a > > given the evolution of the contemporary American poem into a truncated > > personal essay. In the spirit of Sheila Murphy's test message, I ask you > > again, true or false. You will ask, can we really take the NY Times Book > > Review seriously. What sort of question is that? Is there no talking to the > > deans of Columbia College, or the Princess Caetani, or the listserv > > manager, or Chip McGrath? Really? If there is no 'taking on' willful > > ignorance when it blunders on in public, then all this discussion is really > > about is making sure our names appear. That--that jumping on the wrong, and > > doing one's best to avoid it in one's own work--is what excites me about > > the anonymous writing on this list, it's what thrills me about many recent > > chapbooks from anonymous and minuscule presses, it's why I go to readings > > and host them and give them, because it is profoundly exciting to be saying > > something, anything, that is _not_ recognized, that _cannot be_ recognized > > by the literary and publishing public, not through any fault of theirs _or_ > > my own. When Aram Saroyan, fed up with New York and the poetry-consuming > > public of the early 70s, left for the west coast, he wrote an open letter > > to the Poetry Project Newsletter. It was kind of silly. There were a lot of > > underlined words. In the subsequent issue of the Newsletter, a letter > > signed I think it was "The New York School" appeared, listing all the words > > Saroyan had underlined. A funny satire does a famous amount of work, even > > if it marks the few people capable of it with the word 'humorist'--a word > > no one has yet gotten out from under, though most of the truly and > > consistently funny writers of the last 10,000 years have tried. I'm not > > proposing that someone call Lopate a humorist--habeas corpus, etc. But why > > the surrealists, why the seventeenth century? Why not the silver poets, or > > the negritude poets, or anybody? Why only the A+ movements-- consider the > > context and the unstated requirements of the A plus. Or don't, I don't want > > to discuss _my_ private life either. I guess all I wanted was to posit a > > mainstream other, you know, not for _electioneering_ but to provide some > > focus, some _context_ for the discussion about poets/critics. > > > > Okay! > > Jordan > > > Ok. I only mentioned surrealism and seventeenth century poetry as what is > open to being rehistoricized. Silver age, negritude, Carl Sandburg, Dada, > all likewise. No one's a sucker and yes we should take the times > seriously even as they make it virtually impossible to do so. I agree > that Lopate's argument is conservative in one way and I also agree with > you that his criticism of mainstream postconfessional stuff is similar to > Langpo's. So what to do with that loop. And I certainly wasn't asking > you to get postconfessional about a private life (whatever that is, isn't > the personal political even when the personal must be exploded in order > for ideology to be revealed at work). I think all I meant was isn't > Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way. > > Ok. > having now read and breathed a bit: so many problems come from positing one and only one mainstream other poetics and culture being fortunately and unfortunately more multiple and polyvalent than that one problem of position (one) other mainstream is that it makes for one avant-garde when we are thousands ok ok now allow me to become postconfessional: I haven't actually read Lopate's piece. heard about it from other friends. stopped reading times ages ago precisely because it is so stupid about poetry. so. my question is how to be activist in response without being counterdependent. and no overdetermined didn't mean written in crayon or anything like that and I didn't know Lopate really at all except that he has praised Shapiro's work and certainly in terms consistent with Langpo's critique of postconfessional conventions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:20:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: mookie (loop) ten years after In-Reply-To: PS I'm still curious: what's the 86/89 deal. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:03:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: narratives >accomplishing something in approaching the unspeakable...they found it > >Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:19:55 GMT+1200 >From: Tony Green >Subject: Re: Assembling - (Paper)form(alitie)s - (Critics & Poets) > >Tony Green asks: Should a conference on narrative consist of critical >papers on narrative or should it largely consist of narrations which >concerned, or related to, the "conceptual" base ((avoiding the word >"theory" here)) of narrative? My Websters dictionary said "narrate" is from Latin "gnarus" or "knowing" akin to Latin "gnoscere," "nosere" "to know." If you look up "know" one finds Latin "gnoscere, nocere" or "to come to know. " Narratives or tales or myths around the world were a way of "knowing" or "coming to know." Tales or myths are a way of explaining. > Where's the differences, then?. Between conference papers and >narratives? between philosophical, conceptually analytical >discourses, and narrative? what would Plato have to say? Plato has been criticized a lot lately. >But in regarding to Plato, the more I think about him versus the Sophists, I'm >leaning more and more to the Sophists. What if there was no canon, no Platonic justification of a literary canon. What if people just gave up on that activity? What if we try to find different ways to talk about literature without the canon. Also, Guess Inc. has been firing people who are trying to organize so the fired people are calling for a boycott of Guess. Julia Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:00:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: poet critic critic poet A couple of quick points-- I'm sorry Alan. Nothing I said was meant to stand in judgement of you work. I haven't read the essay and and was only using it rhetorically. Cheap trick. Sorry. I would love to read it. Can you email it to me? The thing is, as much as some people would like to deny these differences or theorize them away, they continue to evoke strong, passionate feelings, probably for a number of different reasons. That I don't want to go into. But they do. (Steiner's description early in _Real Presences_ of the graveyard of dissertations as a metaphor for his sense of the problem is terrifyingly funny). Anyway, I don't want to open this up again, only say that, for all the brouhaha, it seems to me Steiner's basic point about what he calls domestication raises uncomfortable, and hence pertinent, points that remain unsettled, whatever you think of his biblio-sexual orientation (is he a true textual fetishist or just a biblio-invert?). If his language is provocative, well, so what? Maybe he's trying to shake things up a bit. And maybe they could use a shake. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? In-Reply-To: from "Joseph Lease" at Sep 10, 96 12:01:58 pm > If a bunch of academics can get together and call themselves and the poetry > they study to be "alternative" then it certainly makes sense that "elitism" > would be a tad confusing to those academics. > i rite: i take exception to your tone. i know the meaning of the word > "elitist." i am familiar with its uses, particularly the way it gets > tagged onto anything one wants to diss. the assumption is that > elitism is bad, and one should go to any and all measures to avoid > being called "elitist." i'm not a stupid person, and i'm not a bunch > of academics calling things things. > md I hear scuttlebutt of an elite cadre of textual fetishists getting organized in Vancouver. The word is they like to dress up in baseball uniforms and talk about books in the dark. Talk about alternative! Yikes. Lock up your kids! Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: postconfessional, postcolonial, let's call the whole thing >I think all I meant was isn't >Lopate affiliated with NY School in a way. Sort of. Phillip has argued against the surrealist tendencies in the New York School for years, leaning more towards the David Shapiro side than the Ron Padgett side (though those two sides are not far apart these days, nor is one more 'surreal' than the other). But what if he is? I don't get the import. 86/89. -- Joseph -- this is totally unimportant, being a tinkering with the proposed start-date for life after language. It is a parody/homage (an attempt on the life after language? no -- just bending the Marx-defying bent of the 89 world events). I seemed to be positing one main stream because I was presenting Lopate's argument. Lopate's anthology _The Art of the Personal Essay_ is a much more complex piece of work than his Times article, which doesn't look so bad to me--only too narrow (univocal?). Poetry is not a weaker cousin of the personal essay. Writers afield embarrass sometimes. And what if Lopate is sympathetic to the New York School. He wrote about poetry for a huge audience in an irritating way; I thought it would be strange to let it go unremarked. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:09:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: canons People talk about canons usually in terms of power, culture, class, who's in, who's out. Seems like just as important is general human propensity to set up markers for evaluation & run competitive races (handy critical tool). Be interesting to see how many "canonical" writers actually came from outside or margins of the "elite"in their societies. Outsiders see the main chance in the race itself. One lesson of slams popularity might be: forget about destroying the cannon or unmasking the canon. Just set up different markers & hire different judges. Everybody likes a good horserace (until they're sick of it). Of course lots of literary charioteers have been onto this for a long time (re: "alternative" this & that). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: canons In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > People talk about canons usually in terms of power, culture, class, who's > in, who's out. Seems like just as important is general human propensity > to set up markers for evaluation & run competitive races (handy critical > tool). Be interesting to see how many "canonical" writers actually > came from outside or margins of the "elite"in their societies. Outsiders > see the main chance in the race itself. One lesson of slams popularity > might be: forget about destroying the cannon or unmasking the canon. > Just set up different markers & hire different judges. Everybody likes > a good horserace (until they're sick of it). Of course lots of > literary charioteers have been onto this for a long time (re: > "alternative" this & that). - Henry Gould good pt; a teacher of mine, an anthropologist who did a lot w/ narratve and expressive cultures, was constantly puzzled the energy stirred up by the "canon" debates among literary scholars. who cares, he'd say; or, when i wd say, so why are these texts not in the canon, w/ some rhetorical indignation, he'd say, cuz they're written by poor teenage girls, it's an open and shut case, next question? i found his approach refreshing md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:11:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: can on as we used to say while putting up our garden vegetables for winter: can on! (also known as making "preserves") --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:22:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Sound Poetry Events I thought I'd post for anyone who might be interested the dates and participants for sound poetry for this year's "Festival de la Batie, the annual two-week festival of theater, dance, music and sound poetry in Geneva, Switzerland. September 13 Roger Lewinter September 14 Bernard Heidsieck Nomads - Guenther Ruch, Juergen O. Olbrich with Rod Summers, Guy Bleus, Fernando Aguiar and Robin Crozier Amanda Stewart September 15 Bob Cobbing / Hugh Metcalfe Mark McMorris / Ward Tietz Christian Uetz Julie Patton All performances will be held at 8:30 pm at Sud des Alpes, 10 rue des Alpes, Geneva, Switzerland. If you're interested in knowing more about the festival or in submitting proposals for next year you can contact Vincent Barras at . I'll try to post something next week on the performances themselves. Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: can on In-Reply-To: Kannon! Yes! The Bodhisattva of Compassion. Exactly who we need. On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote: > as we used to say while putting up our garden vegetables for winter: > > can on! > > (also known as making "preserves") > --dbc > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: Re: Dan Davidson Other than some minimalist correspondance, I didn't know Daniel Davidson but I do know and greatly admire his work. Daniel Davidson was a brilliant poet, one of the few. I am stunned and deeply saddened to learn of his death. The following is a poem he wrote and enclosed in a letter I received from him last February. Imperative 1. We walk and talk, shore filling the past. To bring myself along I dig my eyes into the lap of liquid, what we've learned is such an elegant poison in pieces of elements, buoyed by the warped and narrow walkways, the curtain staring between us. Then to remember our occupation, refrain, circumstance around which everything happens blank of water and muscle, where a heart grasps the blood inside it, stillness otherwise so common. Breathing credulity, a turbulent condition for sight, a sign of touch that "Spectator, of the Willing Participant", is part of you. 2. The ships of sail in mourning washed the feet of the sea, bread, cirrus, circuses blanketing after dawn, and the birds following each impose their directions. One light between us, or two?, for our sprouting wings, for silence, for sleep or sleepless daydreams purging the stones underfoot, where falling proceeds, one step coming after to another. 3. Bare embraces every earth, handwritten cornices gleaming fictions, sweet, tasty entrances borders eveary country life, whatever is pursued. I've learned to believe when you describe the imaginable when tracing the outlines of passing simplicity a self-sealing break making room for another listening, to the selves we've gathered. Daniel Davidson, February 1996 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:55:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Jennifer They surfaced again in 1688. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sarah E. Blackwood" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 Sep 1996 to 9 Sep 1996 In-Reply-To: <199609100406.AAA26978@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Automatic digest processor" at Sep 10, 96 00:00:51 am Could anyone refer me to any sort of works dealing with gender mimicry, costuming, even drag. I am starting out looking at Cindy Sherman's film stills, but would appreciate any genre of art. Thanks. Sarah Blackwood ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:18:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "M.L. Weber" Subject: invitation to submit I am inviting submissions for a lit-mag---will do it twice a year at least, approx. 64 booksize pages, to be called Sugar Mule. Paul Hoover, Lance Olson, Pierre Joris, Jane Augustine, Kate Lila Wheeler Michael Heller and others are in the first issue. Please send to mlweber@aol.com by Sep 15 to be considered for the second issue. The print version of #1 is available from M.L. Weber, 2 N. 24th St., Colo. Spgs., CO 80904 for $5 (or can be viewed on-line at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sugar_mule). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:58:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT--Proliferation #3 Reading Small Press Traffic Presents Proliferation #3 a reading by contributors George Albon Norma Cole Jean Day Hoa Nguyen Leslie Scalapino Since Dan Davidson was scheduled to appear at this reading, some contributors will be reading work by Dan as well as their own work. =46riday, September 13, 7:30 p.m. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 Proliferation is a post-Language, post-Naropa journal of the new generation, edited by San Francisco=B9s Mary Burger. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:31:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Yasusada/Kent Johnson FYI-- Subject: Araki Yasusada/Kent Johnson > Date: 10 Sep 1996 18:36:54 GMT > From: esn6627@is2.nyu.edu (Emily S. Nussbaum) > To: LITERARY@bitnic.cren.net > > I'm writing an article about the "Araki Yasusada" situation for Lingua > Franca magazine. Poems have published under the name Yasusada in Grand > Street, Conjunctions, and American Poetry Review, among other places, with > biographical information presenting Yasusada as a recently discovered > Japanese poet who was a survivor of Hiroshima. This biographical > information was invented, and the actual author(s) of the poems is > (intentionally) unclear. If anyone has any information about this > situation, about Kent Johnson (who has acted as the middleman for these > submissions, and who may have written the work), or about connected > matters, please contact me at esn6627@is2.nyu.edu as soon as possible, as > I'm on deadline. Thank you! > > Emily Nussbaum > Lingua Franca > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:36:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? >I hear scuttlebutt of an elite cadre of textual fetishists getting >organized in Vancouver. The word is they like to dress up in baseball >uniforms and talk about books in the dark. Talk about alternative! >Yikes. Lock up your kids! > >Mike >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca Okay, it's true. But some of us look really good in baseball uniforms. Only ten years ago I had great definition in my upper arm muscles. So we talk about books in the dark! I'm not ashamed! I'm not! Sometimes we dont even talk about books much! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:36:06 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Louise Vickery Subject: Assembling Alternatives Having just got back to Australia, I've only just battled with jetlag to read through the rush of responses to the AA conference and add to the pile. Even though there were not many of us Australians at the conference (made even less in number by the felt absence of John Kinsella), it was quite important for those of us who were to be there (in whatever degree of visibility). While the conference seemed specifically aimed at further encouraging a transatlantic exchange of contemporary poetries and poetics, it was important also at a broader level of opening up the cultures of poetry beyond the usual national borders (within the discussion of who was centralized and who was outside the focus of the conference, no-one seems to have mentioned the wonderful reading of Nicole Brossard and Carla Harryman). The idea of nation was raised rather prominently in some of the past messages on the list and at the conference. From my point of view, the wonderful elements of the conference were the points of connection between different poetic communities, of moving beyond an 'Australian' context or a 'Canadian' context for instance, to looking at how particular practices actually overlap or shape one another in various ways. In terms of who got heard at this conference, it needs to be recognized that much depended on who wanted to listen and how one was listened to. It was not so much the organizer, who did a fantastic job, so much as people in the audience (or deciding to be an audience) that, in many cases, affected the direction of debate. Just one or two examples. It has already been mentioned that there was no public discussion after Philip Mead's paper because the response centred on Bob Perelman's paper. I may be wrong but the responses that came out of that session were all, if not nearly all, from Americans. While Bob Perelman raised some interesting points, I think it significant that those who responded were on fairly familiar ground. Similarly, in the session I was in, which concerned generally US-Canadian intersections of feminist practice, the audience were almost all Canadian or English (American interest was fairly thin on the ground). To begin looking at the pattern of attention and response (who attends which papers and who feels able to talk in the limited space of post-paper discussion) perhaps goes some way in beginning to understand why there may be various silences at such events as well as a lack of ethnic diversity in US poetry conferences more generally. To finish up, I want to thank Romana for staging a much-needed event. Thanks to her enthusiasm and support at my participation, I was able to meet many American, Canadian and British writers who I have been reading for some time, or have only recently discovered. As well as many whose work I discovered while I was there. It was a great experience, Ann Vickery ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:44:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 Sep 1996 to 9 Sep 1996 >Could anyone refer me to any sort of works dealing with gender >mimicry, costuming, even drag. I am starting out looking at >Cindy Sherman's film stills, but would appreciate any genre of >art. Thanks. >Sarah Blackwood Best thing I have ever read/seen was Michel Tremblay's great play, _Hosanna_ George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:48:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: invitation to submit --============_-1369701603==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thanks for invitation. I'm sending something attached. 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"@`!!!@S!!!&V!!!"E!!!!@i!!!&[!!!"F!!!!Am!!!'3!!!!!C%!!!'N!!!"UJ! !!DX!!!'X!!!"VJ!!!Dm!!!'`!!!"[`!!!Fd!!!(1!!!"c`!!!G%!!!(5!!!"d`! !!H)!!!(i!!!"q3!!!IS!!!(m!!!"r3!!!Ii!!!)$!!!#%!!!!KF!!!)B!!!#*!! !!LX!!!)X!!!#03!!!MB!!!)h!!!#13!!!MS!!!)l!!!#5J!!!PJ!!!*C!!!#@J! !!P`!!!*G!!!#AJ!!!Qi!!!+A!!!#Y`!!!XF!!!,H!!!#h`!!!Z!!!!-$!!!$)J! !!b-!!!-N!!!$*J!!!bF!!!-S!!!$03!!!cd!!!0+!!!$6`!!!e!!!!0F!!!$C3! !!fd!!!0Z!!!$E`!!!h%!!!0b!!!$F`!!!i-!!!15qr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[ lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[ lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[l!!!!"!!!!5(!!!i!B`! !!j)!!!16!!!$P!!!!jB!!!1A!!!$Q!!!!ki!!!1r!!!$dJ!!!p-!!!28!!!$eJ! !!pF!!!2B!!!$lJ!!!rm!!!3!!!!%(!!!"$J!!!4%!!!%43!!"'F!!!5(!!!%L!! !"*d!!!5H!!!%R`!!"+%!!!5L!!!%S`!!",3!!!5e!!!%Y`!!",J!!!5k!!!%Z`! !",d!!!5q!!!%`!!!"-%!!!6$!!!%a!!!"-B!!!6(!!!%b3!!"-S!!!6,!!!%c3! !"-i!!!62!!!%hJ!!"0m!!!6J!!!%i3!!"1,lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[ lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqr[lqrX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!%!!!")F!!$J!f!!i!%3$rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr r!!!9rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm%!"!!%!!Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm(!!!!!!!!!3! 2!!$c!23!!!$f!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!$H!!!!!!!!!q)!!`!!"1)!!!! !!!!!q3!!!Qd!!!2"!!!$iK!!rrm!!!!"!!%!!2rr!!!!!J!"%!$rr`!!!!-!!J! !rrm!!!!%!!!!!!%!!!!%l`!$!!!"!!!!!j)!!!6L!!3!"3!!!!)!!`!%!!d!$J! 2!"!!%J!8!"8!&J!A!#%!)J$+&LJ@+6*M-Q3bC6*Q-QFbD$-Y-bij9MPB1D%k)$S N1QdkEMT[1R!!#!!!!%J!5!!!!!!#f`*!rqIrlJ,r!P)I!`8S!r`!!3!!!5`",!! !!!!,j`PJ!5`!,3@JAZ`!*J)"!3%!'!!"*`m!!3!"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)!C!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)!!!!!!3)%"3!!!!Jpi#r3"D!(#!@J"`J!!!, 33J!!!3!"!!&#!!!!!!!!5!!D%5dk4&FJ8f9bD@9c)$BZ-#ic!!S!!!!!!!%!!!! 3#&"KE'&dD@j[`!%"!!!!!'m!!!"[!!D!!)!!!!!!E`!!!!!!+!!#!G8"r!!S!!) !qJ(m!"`(3f&ZG'mJ53!'4f9[FQGP!!!'4f9[FQGP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#F )!!!!: --============_-1369701603==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --============_-1369701603==_============-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:48:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: can on In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400 from On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:22:17 -0400 Gwyn McVay said: >Kannon! Yes! The Bodhisattva of Compassion. Exactly who we need. Might help un-rig some of the horseraces. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Whitman Qestion In-Reply-To: O.K., Whitman fans: Would anybody care to offer a gloss on the phrase "lacy jags" in the last section of "Song of Myself": I depart as air . . . . I shake my white locks at the runaway sun, I effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags. If you go to the OED, be prepared to spend some time there. Thanks-- Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:47:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Thomas M. Orange" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: wcw panel louisville In-Reply-To: <199609110403.AAA00377@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> with all the heat that has been generated lately over academic-type conferences, i nonetheless overcome my hesitation to repost the following query. i'm interested in putting together a panel or panels for the twentieth- century literature conference to be held in louisville ky in february 1997. my work on william carlos williams' early writing (roughly from tempers through his collected 1921-1931) has got me looking currently at imagist and "objectivist" poetics, and how pound and zukofsky as readers of williams situate him in relation to those poetics. we have the initial makings of a panel on reading williams and/or the history of these movements, and are interested in some more proposals that would help us round out (or narrow down) these panels. louisville needs submissions of panels and completed papers (10 pp.) by october 1, and i'd welcome ideas for papers on any related and sundry topics. feel free to reply directly to the list or backchannel. tom orange tmorange@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:43:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: Whitman Qestion In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400 from On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:32:44 -0400 Jonathan A Levin said: >O.K., Whitman fans: > >Would anybody care to offer a gloss on the phrase "lacy jags" in the last >section of "Song of Myself": > >I depart as air . . . . I shake my white locks at the runaway sun, >I effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags. Two possibilities: 1. it's the jagged lace of foamy surf. 2. it's a typo. Walt actually wrote: RACY jags (the car). - hg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: invitation to submit -Reply Thanks for the invitation to submit to Sugar Mule. I attach "In Robert Motherwell's Car." I have a book out from Sun & Moon, and another coming from Coffee House next year. And Good luck with the mag. Jesus, to witness the demise of the SASE. Who'd've thunk it. begin 644 6POEMS.DOC MT,\1X*&Q&N$`````````````````````.P`#`/[_"0`&```````````````! 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M`````@`!`````P`!````!``!````!0`!````!@`!````!P`!````"``!```` M"0`!````"@`!````"P`!````#`````````,``)`:```.```#``"K!```708` M`$\(``#^"0``WPH```0,``#J#0``T@\``,H1``!R$P``FA0``-`5``"1%P`` MHA@``(L:```/`!``$0`2`!,`%``5`!8`%P`8`!D`&@`;`!P`'0`M``Y-:6-H M865L($-O9F9E>1M&.EQ415A47$Y%5U!/14U37#903T5-4RY$3T/_0$A0($QA M"AL1KA`````````````````````#L``P#^_PD`!@`````` M`````````0````$``````````!````(````!````_O___P``````````____ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ %______\3 ` end ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:04:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: invitation to submit -Reply Could people submitting to Sugar Mule send their stuff to M.L. Weber and not to the entire list? Also, beware of PostScript garbling. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:13:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: gender mimicry Sarah, don't know if this would help, but a good place to start, at least historically, is with the fascinating story of the Chevalier D'Eon, a cross-dressing spy/soldier/economist in the court of Louis XVII. A good deal of his spying was done dressed as a woman. Havelock Ellis did a study of him and there at least two good books on him (one of them published last year), plus several "colorful" Victorian accounts, as well as some contemporary records. I did quite a bit of research on him for HBO Pictures, whom I worked for when I lived in LA. Believe it or not, they're actually making a movie of his life. If you want book titles, authors, etc, feel free to backchannel me. Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:53:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: Whitman Qestion i'm probably going to sound like the proverbial idiot savant writer here, but the line "i effuse my flesh in eddies and drift it in lacy jags" sounded perfectly clear to me, in a visual sort of way... uh, jagged. something is jagged, thus it "jags"... yes, i know, quite probably that isn't syntactical but i have a dreadful feeling i've done it myself somewhere... and lacy, a sort of ragged, spread out, thin sheet. you know when someone is smoking, and there is no wind, or maybe a teensy current. and the smoke rises, or spirals slightly, from the cigerette in those odd, flattened, tearing apart eddies? better image, you know in cartoons when they have creatures dissolved or blown up, they have that thin net of creature-body float in the air... that is a something that "jags" and it does so in lacy way. because of the lace, i'm assuming whitman means a two-dimensional sheet, like a peice opaper with lots of holes and the disembodied weightlessness of smoke... e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:20:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Eleni Sikelianos Lee Chapman has asked me to ask if anyone has Sikelianos' address. If you do, please contact Lee at Leechapman@aol.com. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:55:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: invitation to submit --============_-1369661581==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Thanks for invitation. 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'VJ@J!5`!,3@JAZ`!*J)"!3%!'!!"*`m!!3!"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!%!C!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)!!!!!"!)%"8%!!!!pi#r3"D!(#!@J"`J!!!,33J! !!3!"!!&#!!!!!!!!5!!D%5dk4&FJ8f9bD@9c)$BZ-#ic!!S!!!!!!!%!!!!8"94 TE@9c`!%"!!!!!!-!!!!$!!D!!)!!!!!!!`!!!!!!+!!#!Gd#4!!S!!)!qJ(m!#B 59'KP)%eKFR4jFQpXEfGj)$%a!!C(C@pbCf8!!!C(C@pbCf8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!4mi!!!: --============_-1369661581==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --============_-1369661581==_============-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:57:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: invitation to submit -Reply --============_-1369661435==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thanks for the invitation to submit to Sugar Mule. I attach "In Robert >Motherwell's Car." I have a book out from Sun & Moon, and another >coming from Coffee House next year. And Good luck with the mag. >Jesus, to witness the demise of the SASE. 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T"3!!6JF!!!-*!!$b#J!!i``!!131!!$J%!!!ca)!!*N8!!#c&3!!LaF!!!!!!3! !!!%!!3!!!!)!!3!!!!-!!3!!!!3!!3!!!!8!!3!!!!B!!3!!!!F!!3!!!!J!!3! !!!N!!3!!!!S!!3!!!!X!!3!!!!`!!!!!!!!$!!#3!"S!!!i!!!-!!+X%!!"G"J! !6`J!!2i*!!$I#J!!"!`!!1S0!!$5$`!!bK%!!()6!!#D&!!!d"8!!*%A!!#L'!! !LaS!!!m!%!!4!")!%`!8!"8!&J!A!"J!'3!D!"X!(!!G!#d!$NeTBfKKC@`J3fp QCQ9j'dBkA&4&@&4F6N9A8%p&690F0P"248e6,N423rp!5&!J6'&cCA*+CA3J0#m d63"-8&3a1J"SF("ME$9P!%K3)%aKFf9b5Q9d)$3[0%d!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !#J-*!%3!e`!$"`!!!3!"!!!!!!!!!!%!"`$mr`!!!3!!!!!!(3!!!)MVd4%$!!3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!3!"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!%!3!#J"3!!!J!!!!$r!!)!!!!"!!!!!9J#!!!!!!!!!`!!!!!!!!!!"`! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!(3!!!!!!5&!J6'&cCA*+CA3J0#md63!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!+!`N !4!$A!!-(!!!"!!%!!!!!!!!!!3!(!2cr!!!"!!!!!!!G!!!!L1[4%3-!"!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"!!%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!3"!!+!&!!!#!!!!!2m!!J!!!!%!!!!"@!)!!!!!!!!$!!!!!!!!!!!(!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!G!!!!!!!"J!%!&K3!!"B8!!!(!!#!!)!@&!!!!!!!!"88!!"U!"85N!!"!!" 8D@ePFb"1CAFJ8QpYB@i!$"+3!!%#!&0jE@*[E!!,*T!!!3!!3A*TB@`!&a+3!!% !!%*KG@9b3QpNEfjT)%*XB@0V!"35N!!"!!"*)&4TE@9c)%PdB@aTB`!,%T!!!3! !9'PYCA-!)J!%!!%)M"J!!0!#!!"S!3!!!!#,)JPQQe-*4RY5#8B)!&!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!%!!!!!!!3!Ja!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,3%-!!!!!! !!!!16@PMD'&PE#"$EfCQCAN16@PMD'&PE#"$EfCQCAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!d-m4i+' a'Z%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1`!$!2lr#3!'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"!!!!!3!!!!! !!!!!%!!!!J!!!!%!!!$qrrrr!!!!!!!!!!$rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrcR+!!!!: --============_-1369661435==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --============_-1369661435==_============-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Roberts Subject: Whitman "Lacy jags" to me = a wonderful way to characterize the fractal geometry of turbulent systems such as clouds. Also seems an interesting diction cluster, perhaps meant to play off gender connotations of each word, a kind of hermaphrodic entity or bisexual manifestation, though there's an important asymmetry: adjective/noun equal or not equal to female/male??? Peter Out ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Whitman In message <01I9CNT2B5HEHV39AR@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > "Lacy jags" to me = a wonderful way to characterize the fractal geometry of > turbulent systems such as clouds. Also seems an interesting diction cluster, > perhaps meant to play off gender connotations of each word, a kind of > hermaphrodic entity or bisexual manifestation, though there's an important > asymmetry: adjective/noun equal or not equal to female/male??? > Peter Out J.C. Lags to me: an abnormally lovely way to mandate the fibonacci express! bring on the hermaphroditic diaspora syntax! pour on the infestation of mailed females, an exotic asymmetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:55:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roberto Tejada <103144.2454@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Dressing Up On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 "Sarah E. Blackwood" wrote: <> Sarah-- In addition to Sherman, different contemporary artists immediately come to mind: the French performance artist Orlan who undergoes self-transformation through plastic surgery (to mimic models from Classic paintings, from pop culture). See article by Barbara Rose in February 1993 issue of *Art in America*. Also, Lyle Ashton Harris foregrounds gendre and race issues in his large format cibachromes in assorted attire, as does Anna Deavere Smith in her multivocal performances (See Mirage: *Enigmas of Race, Difference and Desire*, Institute of Contemporary Arts, London, 1995.) In this century--as opposed to cross-dressing in Shakespeare--the performative mode and intent around much of this might be traced back to dada (i.e. Duchamp in tutu as Adam in Picabia's Relache, etcetera). --Roberto ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:04:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Dressing Up In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:55:22 EDT from <103144.2454@COMPUSERVE.COM> Marjorie Garber wrote a big book on this subject called Vested Interests. Routledge Press, 1992. Haven't read it - but it got a lot of review "coverage". - HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: dressing up--the Post Card Queen re the dressing up enquiry read/see/hear the works and performances of Kenward Elmslie-- Postcards on Parade for example--with its backdrops of 150 handmade gender bending postcard collages--Kenward performing --singing, speaking, dressing up--all the roles-- Kenward has a new show soon-- all of his books and tapes are available from SPD or Z and Bamberger Presses--Bamberger wrote an interesting piece on KE's recent work in Sulfur 37 Long live the Postcard Queen! dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:57:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Dan Davidson We've just gotten a message from Geoffrey Green who teaches here at SFSU that there will be a memorial service for Dan Davidson on Saturday September 14, 5:30 PM at 2948 16th Street at Capp. Dan was in the Creative Writing program here at State in the eighties. I don't know more about the servie or who to call to confirm. Hopefully, we will know more by the SPT/ Proliferation reading this Friday at New College. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Dressing Up >Marjorie Garber wrote a big book on this subject called Vested Interests. >Routledge Press, 1992. Haven't read it - but it got a lot of review >"coverage". - HG Apparently (as I learned from an article in *Lingua Franca*) this book it spends some time ruminating on the picture of "Oscar Wilde" as Salome which appeared in Ellmann's biography and has now been shown to not be Wilde (or a man, for that matter) at all. Not to slag the book (which I haven't read). Just a little tidbit of knowledge. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:39:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Re: Dan Davidson I was able to speak with Geoffrey Green again and found that in fact the memorial service will take place as planned this Saturday at 2849 16th St., the new location for The Lab at 5:30 PM. It is to be an informal service. We did some research here at the Center and have a partial list of publications: Product, e.g.press, San Francisco, 1991 Image, Zasterle Press, Canary Islands, 1992 Weather, Score Press, Berkeley Absence Sensorium, with Tom Mandel, forthcoming from Potes and Poets Press, Elwood, CT >We've just gotten a message from Geoffrey Green who teaches here at SFSU >that there will be a memorial service for Dan Davidson on Saturday >September 14, 5:30 PM at 2948 16th Street at Capp. Dan was in the Creative >Writing program here at State in the eighties. I don't know more about the >service or who to call to confirm. Hopefully, we will know more by the SPT/ >Proliferation reading this Friday at New College. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:10:38 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Jarnot Subject: ear inn readings October and November 1996: Readings at The Ear Inn OCT 5: PRAGEETA SHARMA, MARK MCMORRIS Prageeta Sharma is a graduate of the MFA program in Creative Writing at Brown University. In 1995 she was a fellow at the MacDowell Colony and was awarded the Academy of American Poets Prize. She currently lives in Brooklyn, New York. Mark McMorris is the author of Figures for a Hypothesis, Mothwings, and the forthcoming collection The Black Reeds. This September he collaborated with Ward Tietz on a performance installation and sound poem for the Geneva Arts Festival. He lives in Providence, Rhode Island. OCT 12: CLIFF FYMAN, LEE ANN BROWN Cliff Fyman lives in New York City where he is a poetry editor of Cover magazine. His work has recently been published in The San Francisco Chronicle, Hanging Loose, The World Anthology: Out of this World, and Lungfull!. Lee Ann Brown is a poet and filmmaker. Her work has been published in several magazines and journals and her first book, Polyverse, is forthcoming from Sun and Moon this fall. She recently moved to New York City where she is the editor/publisher of Tender Buttons press. OCT 19: ANSELM BERRIGAN, KIM LYONS Kim Lyons recently collaborated with Ed Epping on an artists book called Mettle. She has poetry forthcoming in The World and Pagan Place and her chapbook, Rhyme the Lake, is available from leave books. Anselm Berrigan has returned to New York after a two year stay in San Francisco. His recent publications include a chapbook, On the Premises, and poems which have appeared in several magazines, including Talisman, Prosodia, and Yale Younger Poets. OCT 26: DEIRDRE KOVAC, BARBARA HENNING Deirdre Kovac lives in Brooklyn. She is associate editor of Big Allis and is completing her first collection of poems, Mannerism. Her poetry and criticism have appeared recently and are forthcoming in American Letters & Commentary, Denver Quarterly, Letterbox, Object, The Poetry Project Newsletter, and Torque. Barbara Henning is the editor-publisher of Long News Books. Her most recent collection, Love Makes Thinking Dark, was published by United Artists Books in 1995. Her work can be found in Talisman, Chain, and Trois and she has a collection of poems, In Between, forthcoming from Spectacular Diseases. NOV 2 BETH BORRUS, SCOTT BENTLEY Scott Bentley lives in Oakland and teaches at Cal State Hayward. He has an O book called Ground Air that rides shotgun into the KWave. He handles landscapes and large objects. Beth Borrus has recently returned from a hiatus in Paris with Edith Piaff. She has a new collection of poems called Fast Divorce Bankruptcy published by Incommunicado. She lives in Elizabeth and works in Newark. NOV 9 ANGE MLINKO, EDWIN TORRES Ange Mlinko lives in Providence and edits Compound Eye. She has a new chapbook out from Lift called Immediate Orgy & Audit. She grooves to New York. Edwin Torres is a poet who exists in the you-misphere of the alphabet. He was recently curator of the monday night series at St. Mark s and a recipient of a grant from the Foundation for Contemporary Performance Art. His two collections are Lung Poetry & I Hear Things People Haven't Really Said. NOV 16 DREW GARDNER, CHUCK STEIN Drew Gardner does not play loud like a young jazz drummer. He has two chapbooks, Stonewalk published by St. Lazar and The Cover from Leave. He practices at night and lives in Brooklyn. Chuck Stein will not stop working on his life project forestforthetrees. His most recent book is a selected poems from Station Hill called hatracktree. Marie Osmond has performed his speaking backwards poetry on Ripley's Believe It or Not. He lives in the Hudson Valley. NOV 23 LYDIA DAVIS, PATRICIA JONES Patricia Jones has a new book out from Coffee House called The Weather That Kills and a Telephone chapbook called My Mythologies Always. She is a fellow at Breadloaf, teaches at Sara Lawrence and lives in the heart of Brooklyn. Lydia Davis is a prose writer and translator living in upstate New York. Recently out from High Risk are The End of the Story and Break It Down. A new collection of stories called Almost No Memory is soon to be published by Farrar-Strauss. NOV 30 ROSS BROCKLEY, JIM KRELL Jim Krell is the author of three collections of poetry: Here & Now, a Black Sparrow imprint edited by Jonathan Williams, Vice of Woes, and On the Advice of Wolves (Terminal Inc.). His new project is a series of love poems to Michelle. He is a fixture in the east village. Ross Brockley performs Monday nights at the Luna Lounge. His work has been described as the surrealist mutterings of damaged goods. As Janeane Garafolo says in Playboy, "I woke up and rolled over, and there was Ross Brockley. My first thought was, Oh, I know that guy! He's funny. Thank God it's a good comic. I mean he could have been a hack." SATURDAY AFTERNOON READINGS begin at 2:30 pm, $3.00 contribution goes to readers. THE EAR INN is at 326 Spring St. NYC. Coordinators for this series are Lisa Jarnot (October) and Bill Luoma (November). Continuing support of this series is provided by the Segue Foundation. Funding is made possible by support from the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. PLEASE SUPPORT THE EAR-- COME EARLY FOR LUNCH, STAY LATE FOR DINNER! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Colleen Lookingbill Subject: Dan Davidson I first met Dan Davidson in 1987, at a bus stop following a poetry reading in San Francisco. Our destination was hardly a block away from each other in the same neighborhood and we soon became friends, of sorts, for a few years. He had just abandoned involvement in the local punk rock scene, said he knew Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys and bragged of his conquests in picking up young women at the clubs. I believed him, he was capable of being very charming and comedic. He had an incredible gift for talking-up strangers in public. A walk with him to a used bookshop, to scavenge for treasures, was a minor adventure, you never knew who he'd engage or where it would end. He also collected photographs that he found on the street. He often did much of his writing at the old, now defunct, SF Modern Art Museum. We attended some of the contemporary music performances together there, at what was known as the "Green Room." In those days, there were interesting readings nearly every week, it seemed like a "scene", and Dan was a part of it. The sound of his artificial heart valve ticking could be heard in the audience, it was often mistaken for a loud watch, and Dan used to joke about it. Eventually he hosted his own reading series at Forest Books. Dan held a literary salon in the living room of his funky share apartment. Some of the participants included Gary Sullivan, George Albon, David Gilbert, Laurie Price, Spencer Selby and Colleen Lookingbill. Dan played matchmaker in introducing me and encouraging me to date my wife-to-be. In the style of the Situationists, Dan often created his own flyers of altered advertising images, which he publicly posted or handed-out himself. The Reagan - Bush years kept him busy. I remember he was very excited about the release of the first BATMAN movie, which he read as a postmodern sign of social crisis. He never held a straight job, as far as I know, and he was proud of that. A sign outside his apartment gate read : Anarchist Arboretum. He claimed his upstairs neighbors were SM professionals and he could hear the screams at night. He decided to get a tattoo and chose a simple circle or oval on his forearm (I believe). Later, I became estranged from him, but ironically, after some years spent living on the other side of the city, I relocated to a building close to his. These last few years, I passed him on the street from time to time, exchanged polite greetings, had no knowledge of his life, but he seemed content. Jordon Zorker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:28:32 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Re: Conceptual crit? > Nirvana at the end was so alternative you could see their > "alternativeness" in every record store in the land. They were so > alternative Cobain put a shotgun in his mouth to escape the alternatives. Or, alternatively, Mark Chapman put a gun in John Lennon's mouth because of the double bind of being cool and a Rebel; Lennon half said all Beatles songs were untouchable, half that they were all rubbish and they "sold out" (his words) with their first record; these schizoid indexes of value exist in relation to some schizoid thing called society which, for the people who don't care about Nirvana or any of us on this list, don't matter *at all* on the day-to-day basis that they seem to matter in this argument. The point is not always to dent the present, but to be true, and wait for it to be seen; *the* alternative. Elvis Presley's first records, as records, were quiet and minimal and not grabbing attention compared to the pop culture they entered; after the pelvis hoo-hah, that's why his work remains musical, not situationist. The danger of quick reaction in this supposedly quick e-medium is going for quick solutions, and not thinking. There was one culture around Nirvana not unlike the one that just poets (not critics) make around poetry both straight and avant-garde: emotionally inept, hyper, not interested in the feelings or the chords of Kurt Cobain which helped stoke his internalised feelings of no longer being alternative because he couldn't be alternative in attitude to their satisfaction. One member of this list privately once told me that he laughed when he heard Lennon had been shot "he was already dead"; that seems to me to be consumer culture at its worst from an avant-gardist; it's yesterday's product. Not to buy that attitude is alternative, no matter your sales. Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:36:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wheeler Subject: Assembling Alternatives Having now read through the correspondence here, I only want to add my thanks to Romana Huk. For me, it was a real joy to hear so many people whose work I'd followed in one place, one time. I gave my own paper late in the conference, and until then heard panels that tangentially related in order to incorporate what came up -- I regretted all I missed. I would be grateful to see any of the papers, in whole or part, posted to the list; this may sate others' curiosity too, yes? Susan Wheeler voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:01:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Assembling Alternatives At 07:36 AM 9/12/96 -0400, you wrote: >I would be grateful to see any of the papers, in whole or part, posted to >the list; this may sate others' curiosity too, yes? >Susan Wheeler Conference papers may also be sent to me to be included in an online "book" on the conference at the EPC! --- Loss Glazier http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:33:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Sun & Moon NAP and NAF competitions Now that the season has begun, I thought you might want to be reminded for yourself, your students, and for your friends that Sun & Moon Press is still reading manuscripts for its 1996 New American Poetry (NAP) and New American Fiction (NAF) competitions. The competitions are open from January 1 to December 30th of each year. All manuscripts are read both in-house and by an independent judge. Full length manuscripts of either poetry or fiction may be entered. Please put your name and address on the title page (but do not repeat it elsewhere, since the manuscripts out of house are read blindly). There is a $25.00 entrance fee which is used toward the publication of the books. If you wish your manuscript returned after the competition , please enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope. The award winners are announced each year in February. And the books will be published within the next calendar year. This past year's (1995) winners were: Poetry: Rob Fitterman, METROPOLIS (chosen by Bruce Andrews) Fiction: Eleana Greenspan, POSSESSED BY A DEMON (chose by Douglas Messerli) Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:35:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Please send entries for the New American Poetry and New American Fiction competitions to: Sun & Moon Press 6026 Wilshire Boulevard Los Angeles, CA 90036 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:13:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: catching up In-Reply-To: <199609040404.AAA04161@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> reading through back numbers of the list -- still only getting online about once a week from Boulder -- The Joe Lockard who authored the article spoken of favorably here last week was one of the speakers on the panel I chaired at the Maine conference this Summer -- I would invite list-o-philes to read Lockard's piece and decide for themselves if his is guilty of reductive sociological approaches to literature -- on newer news -- Creeley reads at Naropa this week-end -- Stan Brakhage has just been released from the hospital after major surgery -- It looks like he'll be OK, but he's been through a real trial -- I know there are lots of Brakhage fans out there, so I'll post an update on his health next week -- love to all and sundry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:51:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: no back channel In-Reply-To: <199609080405.AAA14055@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Keith -- if you're still looking for Harryette's phone number, call me at mine: (303) 541-9467 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:19:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Sorry to bother everyone again, but my most recent post seemed to confuse as many people as it was meant to reveal information. For the both the NAF and NAP competitions, Sun & Moon Press is interested only in previously unpublished full- length manuscripts. The chosen manuscript will be published, with a contract, by Sun & Moon Press in its New American Fiction or New American Poetry Series. A full-length poetry manuscript must be at least 50 pages 70-150 is a more normal length. Fiction manuscripts may be from 70 pages at may extend to any length. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:11:51 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: cross-dressing More biblio on this from Kyla McFarlane, who has just completed a thesis on Fetishism in New Zealand and Australian art: String of Pearls: Stories about Cross-Dressing ed. Tony Ayres, Allen and Unwin, St Leonards, Australia, 1996. This may not be available in the US yet. Fetishism as Cultural Discourse, eds. Emily Apter and William Pietz, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, 1993. This book also has a very useful and extensive bibliography. (Note particularly the article by Jann Matlock, pp.13-31. Another version of Matlock's piece is reproduced in Grand Street, no.53, Summer 1995.) Also, Valerie Steele's book Fetish: Fashion, Sex and Power, Oxford University Press, 1996, might be of some use... Marjorie Garber is a well known writer in this area, but you probably already know of her. If not, her book entitled Vested Interests is a useful text. Good luck... Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:25:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: David Tudor Memorial In Celebration of David Tudor January 20, 1926 - August 13, 1996 Judson Memorial Church 55 Washington Square South New York, New York Tuesday, September 17, 1996 8:00 P. M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: Dan Davidson Jordon, Thanks for sharing your experiences and feelings about Dan Davidson. I only met him briefly in San Francisco when you and Colleen invited Peter and me to read and during the reading for THE ART OF PRACTICE. Like so many others, I will continue to admire Dan's work. The fragilities or decisions of others often remain unknown to us. Best to you and Colleen, Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help (fwd) Long political message follows, the gist of which is to send a message to Clinton on the vetoing the federal ban on gay marriages. Why not? > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: Joe.DiMilia@ncal.kaiperm.org >Reply-To: EBOakPFLAG@aol.com >Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help > >Are you as mad as I am about DOMA? Here's something to do. Pass the word: > >Subj: VETO DOMA - How to help >Date: 96-09-09 22:52:28 EDT >From: BLUE EYES2 > >President Bill Clinton has been taking way too much advice from his >right-wing advisors like Dick Morris on the subject of DOMA. He needs to >know that we will not sit back and allow him to score election year >points by denying basic rights to lesbian or gay Americans. It is the >most important battle of our political lives and no matter what we think >about the timing or the politics behind this issue, we cannot afford to >sit this one out. This is an experiment in using the net for grass roots >politics. Your voice will make a difference. > >To participate in this experiment: > >1. E-mail this message, exactly as it is, complete with this introduction >to at least five of your friends. Add it to any mailing lists you are on. >Please, distribute as widely as you can. > >2. Copy the message below the line, without this introduction, to a new >e-mail message. > >3. Address that new message to: president@whitehouse.gov > >4. Fill in your name, street address and the date in the appropriate >places top and bottom. The White House tosses e-messages with no street >address. > >5. In the subject line, write VETO DOMA > >6. Hit the send button and your copy of message will be on its way to The >White House. > >If you follow all of these directions the President could receive a few >hundred thousand messages titled VETO DOMA. It would be too much to >ignore. > >We can and will make a difference in 1996! > >your name >your street address >your city, state, & zip code > >_____________________________________________________ > >>date< > >President Bill Clinton >The White House >1600 Pennsylvania Avenue >Washington, DC > >Dear Mr. President: > >Republicans in Congress, with the help of many Democrats have passed >the so called Defense Of Marriage Act, or DOMA. They created the >bill from ignorance, from hatred for gay Americans and out of the desire >to embarrass you in an election year. You helped its progress when, to >make yourself look good in a election year, you announced early that you >would sign it. Now, you must change your mind and do the right thing. >Veto DOMA! We will not allow you to make political gains by creating pain >for our gay Americans. > >DOMA is a dangerous threat to the civil liberties of gay Americans and to >the Constitution itself. As Jim Crow laws once did to African Americans >in the South, DOMA would use the mighty power of the federal government >to deny to one class of citizens, gay Americans: income tax benefits, >pensions, social security survivor benefits, access to partners in >federal hospitals, immigration rights, and so much more that we have not >yet considered. DOMA would create for the first time under federal law >two classes of citizenship with different rights for gay and straight >Americans. This divisive law threatens one of our most important >Constitutional principles, equal protection under the law. > >You must do the right thing Mr. President. Speak out against the hatred, >eschew the politics of division and rise above the political expedience. >Do the right thing for your country and its citizens. Veto DOMA. Raise >your voice against this monstrous injustice. Use the power of your veto >pen to bring us together, instead of your signature to divide our nation >by creating a new federally ordered apartheid system of injustice. > >Sincerely, > > >your name >your street address >your city, state, & zip code > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Kevin Young's phone number Would somebody please backchannel me with Kevin Young's phone number? Would somebody please backchannel me with Kevin Young's phone number? Would somebody please backchannel me with Kevin Young's phone number? Thanks-- Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:23:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: update u of mn hi guyzies sorry to clog the airwaves w/ matters distinctly less than poetic, but it's impt to our situation here to get the word out/ so here's the latest news, hot off the union meeting earlier today (that is, our hoping-to-be-union). md From: Tom Walsh Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:32:33 -0500 To: ufa@mnnt1.hep.umn.edu Subject: Cease and Desist Dear Colleague Today the University Faculty Alliance filed our present authorization forms with the Bureau of Mediation Services (BMS). We now have a copy of the cease and desist ("maintenance of status quo") order which was faxed to the University this afternoon. This will forestall any precipitous action by the Board of Regents. Of course, we may have to defend this order in court. The maintenance order refers to the entire Twin Cities instructional faculty. We regard this as meaning the AHC is included in the order. The AHC is not included in the filing unit at this moment, but has until November 1 to join (as does the Law School). As you know, this quick response of the faculty was only possible due to broad agreement among many of us--UFA, AAUP, the ad hoc "Group of 19", our Regents Professors and governance groups. As a colleague observed: "The guillotine is stuck halfway down." This is at heart a fight to preserve the University as a major American research university with access to Minnesotans regardless of their economic status. It is not solely about tenure. If we are to prevent the guillotine blade from falling the rest of the way, we will have to continue a vigorous action to collect authorization forms from the entire University. We need such numbers that the public and legislature will be convinced that we are united and that the entire State of Minnesota has a stake in the outcome. Sincerely, Paula Rabinowitz, Department of English Thomas Walsh, Department of Physics University Faculty Alliance ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: query: langpo and its discontents Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the Pre-Raphaelites . . . Thanks, --Matt ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Bentley Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents I remember some years ago (say, 1986) that Clayton Eshelman had some pretty fiery things to say about "L" poetry, but I can't remember where. It was either in POETRY INTERNATIONAL, POETRY FLASH, or POETRY TODAY (I think). Also, Bob Haas made an interesting single paragraph summary of "L" in an interview in the S.F. EXAMINER about six months ago. Sorry not to be more specific but your query caught my attention, so I thought I'd reply and get you started. Hopefully someone else will remember the specifics. Scott Bentley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:17:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help (fwd) It might be helpful to know that email is all but ignored in political circles. The staff does not exist to adequately filter the mail. The medium is considered too "impulse" to carry weight. As always a good strong letter using your own words on real paper is worth a great deal more in the process of deciding these things. In essence 10000 email messages don't count nearly as much as one bona fide letter from a member of the rotary club in bumfuk, idaho. if email were to be the medium of choice it would perhaps be more appropriate to aim it at those who will end up enforcing such a law rather than those who make and enact such laws as the voices of enforcement will undoubtably carry more weight than 10000 email messages. filch >Long political message follows, the gist of which is to send a message to >Clinton on the vetoing the federal ban on gay marriages. Why not? > >> >>---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:28 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Joe.DiMilia@ncal.kaiperm.org >>Reply-To: EBOakPFLAG@aol.com >>Subject: Fwd: VETO DOMA - How to help >> >>Are you as mad as I am about DOMA? Here's something to do. Pass the word: >> >>Subj: VETO DOMA - How to help >>Date: 96-09-09 22:52:28 EDT >>From: BLUE EYES2 >> >>President Bill Clinton has been taking way too much advice from his >>right-wing advisors like Dick Morris on the subject of DOMA. He needs to >>know that we will not sit back and allow him to score election year >>points by denying basic rights to lesbian or gay Americans. It is the >>most important battle of our political lives and no matter what we think >>about the timing or the politics behind this issue, we cannot afford to >>sit this one out. This is an experiment in using the net for grass roots >>politics. Your voice will make a difference. >> >>To participate in this experiment: >> >>1. E-mail this message, exactly as it is, complete with this introduction >>to at least five of your friends. Add it to any mailing lists you are on. >>Please, distribute as widely as you can. >> >>2. Copy the message below the line, without this introduction, to a new >>e-mail message. >> >>3. Address that new message to: president@whitehouse.gov >> >>4. Fill in your name, street address and the date in the appropriate >>places top and bottom. The White House tosses e-messages with no street >>address. >> >>5. In the subject line, write VETO DOMA >> >>6. Hit the send button and your copy of message will be on its way to The >>White House. >> >>If you follow all of these directions the President could receive a few >>hundred thousand messages titled VETO DOMA. It would be too much to >>ignore. >> >>We can and will make a difference in 1996! >> >>your name >>your street address >>your city, state, & zip code >> >>_____________________________________________________ >> >>>date< >> >>President Bill Clinton >>The White House >>1600 Pennsylvania Avenue >>Washington, DC >> >>Dear Mr. President: >> >>Republicans in Congress, with the help of many Democrats have passed >>the so called Defense Of Marriage Act, or DOMA. They created the >>bill from ignorance, from hatred for gay Americans and out of the desire >>to embarrass you in an election year. You helped its progress when, to >>make yourself look good in a election year, you announced early that you >>would sign it. Now, you must change your mind and do the right thing. >>Veto DOMA! We will not allow you to make political gains by creating pain >>for our gay Americans. >> >>DOMA is a dangerous threat to the civil liberties of gay Americans and to >>the Constitution itself. As Jim Crow laws once did to African Americans >>in the South, DOMA would use the mighty power of the federal government >>to deny to one class of citizens, gay Americans: income tax benefits, >>pensions, social security survivor benefits, access to partners in >>federal hospitals, immigration rights, and so much more that we have not >>yet considered. DOMA would create for the first time under federal law >>two classes of citizenship with different rights for gay and straight >>Americans. This divisive law threatens one of our most important >>Constitutional principles, equal protection under the law. >> >>You must do the right thing Mr. President. Speak out against the hatred, >>eschew the politics of division and rise above the political expedience. >>Do the right thing for your country and its citizens. Veto DOMA. Raise >>your voice against this monstrous injustice. Use the power of your veto >>pen to bring us together, instead of your signature to divide our nation >>by creating a new federally ordered apartheid system of injustice. >> >>Sincerely, >> >> >>your name >>your street address >>your city, state, & zip code >> >> >> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Judy Roitman | "Glad to have >Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things >Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." >913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:03:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: query & discontents re the query seeking specific rhetoric involved with attacks on Langaueg poetry-- A book that may be of use is Politics and Poetic Value edited by Robert von Hallberg (Chicago: U of Chicago P, 1987). Specifically the essays by Jerome J. McGann (Contemporary Poetry, Alternate Routes), Charles Altieri (Without Consequences is No Politics: A Response to Jerome McGann), McGann again (Response to Charles Altieri) and Jed Rasula (The Politics of, the Politics in). (Needless to say--re the recent poets/critics thread--these present the rhetoric of the academy in dealing with the issues. Thus should be taken as but one aspect among many of the question . . . ) Robert Smithson wrote: "Literal statements often conceal violent analogies". An interesting way to approach the question of specific attacks--lines, words, phrases--might be to take statements for and against Language Poetry--including those specific to Language Poetry itself as statements, claims--and present them in juxtaposition. The apposition of vocabularies of opposition may provide interesting material for investigation. The Utopian Moment by Norman Finkelstein may also be an interesting book to look at. hope these may be of use --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:20:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents At 05:54 PM 9/13/96 -0400, Matt Kirschenbaum wrote: >Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric >employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether >the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of >individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly >nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike >Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the >Pre-Raphaelites . . . Well, I think the obvious place to start is Tom Clark's "Stalin as Linguist" parts I and II, at least one of which was published in *Poetry Flash*. (I think both parts are reprinted in a book of Clark's from the Michigan Poets on Poetry series.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Writing Across the University Program (919) 660-4357 Box 90023, Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 Durham, NC 27708 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:32:08 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Kinsella Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996 Does anyone know if Sulfur is still active? I've not heard of anything appearing since early last year. Is Barbara Guest on e-mail? I'd like to contact her re Salt poetry journal. Thanks John Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:30:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents there was a crazy piece in CONTACT II in the early 80's coming from a very normative point of view--a good source for this stuff is Charles Bernstein who kept track of all these polemics. A forgotten number is the exchange between Eliot Weinberger and various L. Poets that was in three issues of Sulfur -- Weinberger has never collcted this in his volumes. Give a look to the responces to my intro to LAN poetry that appeared in Poets & Writers circa '90 (article ws called INk Mathematics), which is a rare glimpse of how everyday, non-theorist types looked upon the work ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:48:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:32:08 +0800 from John Kinsella asks if Sulfur is still active. It is, the next issue is due in late October or early November, but loss of NEA money has meant, among other things, a reduction in the number of distributors. Probably best, especially for those not in the US, to subscribe: $14 for individuals; add $4 ($10 airmail) for foreign subscriptions. Sulfur c/o English Department Eastern Michigan University Ypsilanti, MI 48197 USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents In-Reply-To: <960914133055_104047.2175_JHR94-1@CompuServe.COM> from "JOEL LEWIS" at Sep 14, 96 09:30:55 am If you're interested in cross border, take a look at Warren Tallman's last collection of essays and letters, for a take on Steve McCaffery and new Vancouver writing. Also see review by Brian Fawcett of the antho. East of Main (which includes a section of writing by Derksen, Ferguson and others), in The Georgia Straight circa 1990. - Louis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 08:10:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996 Barbara is not on E-mail. I can provide her address. I'll back-channel you. Douglas ======================================= At 12:32 PM 9/14/96 +0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know if Sulfur is still active? I've not heard of anything >appearing since early last year. Is Barbara Guest on e-mail? I'd like to >contact her re Salt poetry journal. > >Thanks > >John Kinsella > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:46:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents >Lately I've been interested in the specifics of the rhetoric >employed in critiques of/attacks on language writing (whether >the journal, any of the several anthologies, the work of >individual poets, etc.) Can anyone suggest a particularly >nasty broadside or polemic, something perhaps not unlike >Robert Buchanan's infamous "Fleshly School" review of the >Pre-Raphaelites . . . Around ten years ago in the Poetry Flash (located in Berkeley) there was an all out war against language poetry, with langpos sending angry letters back. It was all anybody talked about for months. Here's the phone number of the Flash: 510-525-5476. They might be able to help you. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:04:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents In-Reply-To: <199609141544.LAA24367@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> from "Louis Cabri" at Sep 14, 96 11:44:01 am Many thanks to everyone who's responded so far. All of your suggestions have been helpful, even the one mailed to me backchannel suggesting that I "begin with a study of Langpo's rhetoric and critique of nearly everyone else." --Matt ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:43:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996 Latest _Sulfur_ I have is No. 38, Spring 1996. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:37:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Former Alliance member/_Turner Diaries_ expert says Hello! (fwd) I haven't checked out the validity of this, so it may be a put on. But I thought I'd forward it in case anyone can use the info. It came through after I'd set the badsubjects list to "nomail" so perhaps there's a reason? gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Milton Kleim Reply-To: bad@eng.hss.cmu.edu Subject: Former Alliance member/_Turner Diaries_ expert says Hello! Hello everyone! I was a member of William Pierce's National Alliance for nearly a year, and was an "associate" (i.e. follower) of his for much longer. I was the chief (de facto) propagandist for the National Alliance on the Internet, primarily USENET, for over two years. I was privy to much information about the inner workings of the National Alliance (although I wish I had even more knowledge). I had been invited to the Hillsboro, WV head- quarters for the April 20th (Hitler's birthday) leadership conference, by special signed invitation of Pierce. However, I did not attend due to a major conflict which led to my resignation from (but not my disassociation with) the Alliance. In fact, although I had trouble with Pierce's sale of _the Turner Diaries_ to Barricade Books, I continued to support Alliance Internet operations until June, including helping to write the TTD webpage (http://www.natvan.com/turner.html) -- most of the words are mine, though Pierce modified a few things I said. Due to rather traumatic personal circumstances in late May and early June, as well as a build-up of disgust and bitterness over the failings of the White Nationalist "movement," I made a "resignation" statement in early June (see my webpage -- "A Reckoning"). Further statements have been made subsequently, and I am now completely free of the influence of the "movement's" "persuasive" techniques. I am more than happy to speak my mind about the potentially evil possibilites which the "movement" can foster, as it has fostered in Oklahoma City. Make no mistake about it: the "movement" can and probably will implement further acts like the OKC bombing. This is most unfortunate, but a terrible fact which cannot be avoided. The "movement's" ranks are, for the most part, quite benign, as I was -- all talk -- but there are, sadly, certain elements within it who are quite capable of anything, including another OKC, or worse, using nuclear, biologial, or chemical weapons on a much larger scale. Many of those in the "movement" who are prone to violence are amoral and apolitical, but are driven to action by the hot rhetoric I and others put out, including, especially, Pierce's _The Turner Diaries_ and his even worse book, _Hunter_ (pretty much a "how-to" manual for "do-it-yourself" assassination of political figures and interracial couples). They are enthralled by the pursuit of power and thrill, and killing people in such fashion as happened at OKC is the only way they can fulfill their fantasies and perverted needs. I know _the Turner Diaries_ (and _Hunter_) in depth, free of the media distortion which occurs thanks to Mr. Dees and others. If anyone would like my opinions on the matter, for curiosity, or for research, please do feel free to ask. If I can help to prevent the further realization of Dr. No's, uhh, I mean Dr. Pierce's "vision," I'm happy to do so. Please do check out my webpage, which will explain many things about me. There are also some rather bold statements against _the Turner Diaries_ archived at the Nizkor site, in files kleim.0896 and kleim.0996. Good day to you all. -- Milton John Kleim, Jr. Sacramento -- http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748 -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: how the west was won and where it got us Uilleain pipes, Didn't Mark Wallace write an essay for Poetics Briefs about strong hostile reactions to language poetry? For those of you who haven't read Mark's essays, they're a trip -- cogent, fiery, encyclopedic. But I have to ask -- is any unexcited description of language poetry a 'discontented' reaction? I've described language poetry a lot, often late at night, when everything's turned down except the treble. Jargon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:57:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents As follow-up to the Sulfur issues Joel Lewis mentioned, you might want to look at Temblor 9, which has responses by Ben Hollander & David Levi Strauss to Ron Silliman's "Negative Solidarity" that Eshleman published in Sulfur 22, followed by a comapnion Silliman piece, "Poets & INtellectuals." These at least get beyond the namecalling nonense that charcterized much of what was printed in the Poetry Flash Dodie mentioned, & even Weinberger's stuff in Sulfur. I tempted to ask why anyoe wd want to dredge this stuff up, but, no, I really don't want to ask. all best, charles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:05:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents A critique of the Messerli anthology by Ben Friedlander can be found in Jimmy & Lucy's House of "K" #8, which begins: "Is this the great language poetry anthology?" happy reading charles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:13:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: how the west was won and where it got us please turn down the treble and let er rip. >Uilleain pipes, >Didn't Mark Wallace write an essay for Poetics Briefs about strong hostile >reactions to language poetry? For those of you who haven't read Mark's >essays, they're a trip -- cogent, fiery, encyclopedic. But I have to ask -- >is any unexcited description of language poetry a 'discontented' reaction? >I've described language poetry a lot, often late at night, when >everything's turned down except the treble. >Jargon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents In-Reply-To: <960916015753_523426868@emout16.mail.aol.com> from "Charles Smith" at Sep 16, 96 01:57:54 am After generous suggestions, Charles Smith asks by not asking: > I tempted to ask why anyoe wd want to dredge this stuff up, but, no, I really > don't want to ask. My immediate interest is in poetries that have been branded as "mechanistic" or "lifeless." Far be it from me to ever engage in literary rubbernecking. > all best, > charles > Thanks, --Matt ================================================================= Matthew G. Kirschenbaum University of Virginia mgk3k@virginia.edu Department of English http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~mgk3k Electronic Text Center ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:56:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: late assemblages (longish) A belated addition to the Assembling Alternatives footage, some of which Los showed to me when i visited Buffalo and some of which I've missed in the interim. I only just got back, having taken a longer route home via Buffalo - archive, EPC (check out the web page that Los launched for me there - you'll need Netscape 3.1. to view the on-line animation / performance), readings, burgeoning presses and clusters of younger poets. I hope that at least some of what i add here is useful and doesn't repeat prior reportage - having said which please bear in mind that i haven't been able to read all of the exchanges to date. Several points are sticking with me. They are given in no particular priority. The fact that many of the most energised moments at conferences and festivals occur in the foyer or the bar or on a brief excursion into the surrounding woodlands and rocky outrops and streets is axiomatic. Nature, no doubt an arguably overextended schedule contributed to this. However, the often inconsiderate opening and closing of the clattering door at the back of the main hall, especially during readings (as people voted for al fresco discussion) bracketed some readings (of both papers and poems) disolutely. "Let's talk about later" it was an overheard limit of corridor would-be dialogue around the 'center' - conjoined by the feeling of desperately trying, and often failing, to eat at two or three tables simultaneously. There was a marked difference, in the broadest sense, between the written cadences of those two broad 'sides' of that atlantic represented. The British (there lies imperial many forms of evil embodied) and the North American ("same glutten again!") poets sounded different not by dint of mere accent but by phrase - by unit cadence - by rhythm. Someone could sort through the recordings and work up a paper on this. Also prevalent was a tendency (certainly shared by this bullet head) to break into or close to song during poems. I take this to signal a major shift towards orality in the versioning of texts through performance. Denise Riley surely sang the blues on! Notable mic-addressing techniques from Leslie Scalapino, Karen MacCormack (wonderful whistling harmonics), Lisa Robertson (whose 'Debbie: an epic' is eagerly awaited), Denise Riley, Robert Sheppard, Catherine Walsh. Many of the readings by the British poets were the best i have heard them give. It was that level of occasion. Some encroachment of low tec into the proceedings must also be noted. Tom Raworth's use of 'Fred' or 'Frank' (there seem to be differing names for the Stephen Hawking voice simulation - i know that there are now half a dozen or more voicings available) was salutary. Stand-up comedy was the ghost in the conference geist. Barrett Watten even deliberately generated heckling and summarily despatched it. Uncontrollable outbreaks of laughter were provoked by Randolph Healey, Steve McCaffery, Rae Armantrout (my reader of the week), Jeff Derkson, Miles Champion, Chris Stroffolino, Hazel Smith and Charles Bernstein. Each using a differing technique to crack the crowd open. Bearing in mind Fiona Templeton's deconstruction of conference as a performance form and David Bromige's prone presentation of podium behaviour (someone might give him a tv show, with lounge setting, a long long mike lead and a fake cigarette) - it was remarkable how some (though thankfully not too many) of the papers and poems being voiced, lacked any awareness of the performative aspects that the situation demanded. I mean if you don't want to read out loud then post your materials for silent consumption in the lobby, or tidy up your script and have it presented without prejudice in the proceeds. Discussion could follow readings of poems as well as readings of papers. Time for robust large group discussions has been lamented all round. One highlight, for me, was listening to the animated chatter of a packed busload on its way into Portsmouth for the final night dinner. What an exquisite nest of birds! More mischievous 'play' with the form of papers, both in how they were written and how presented would be welcome. The tactic of alluding to what can't be read for example, given the constraints of time, seemed way underexplored ("skipping material on the hermeneutics of quotation", "I'm cutting a bunch of stuff on Coolidge and astrology","no time for the marital status of the number five, it'll be in the published version", "sliding past several paragraphs on the pre-millenial Carnival of Paradigms") as strategic diversion. Then it might have been worth trying different conference configurations in different rooms - in the round for example (to state an obvious). In many respects then this was an assemblage of contemporary conventions, and extremely useful in being that. Interdisciplinarity was for the most part noticeably absent and the authority of the 'text' in the dominant. In this respect the film showings (by Fiona and Abigail Child) were welcome. As too the hypertext / CD Rom / Video presentations - but I'd like to have been able to play with that technology in an installation available throughout. But what of music / movement? - especially as so many of those present work in collaborations of various kinds, or compose themselves. These issues are integral to the development of our poetics - as Barrett Watten suggested in what for me was a strong closing paper, unfortunately hijacked by concerns which could more usefully have formed the basis for an opening session. The gripes raised mostly legitimate concerns - but were misplaced as end notes. The Leaning Tower of Pizza, along the drive to New Hampshire from Boston has stuck in my memory. A fraying fabric of signage, the neon of which was partially missing (or partially representing), lining much of the route. Allen Fisher (with whom, alongside Trevor Joyce, i was rooming) reported back on the Continental Breakfast at the Dover Days Inn as being a pink doughnut with an ice cold apple and coffee. Forgoing that delight we walked in Dover, discussing a collaboration for the Sunday night, admiring the angular articulations given to junctional space by telegraph poles. Allen's own paper on narrativity and consciousness (great to hear him read 'Bel Air' again btw) elicited my favourite overheard exchange. Two men in the men's toilet: 1. "It could take you the rest of your life to think through all of the things in that paper" 2. "I was hoping to have my consciousness expanded, but ended up feeling pretty stupid" 1. "There you are you see, you did have your consciousness expanded" There was a curious feeding frenzy as books were released from cardboard boxes amid the registrations before the first evening reading even began. I'd like to second Keith Tuma's comment on the urgency of keeping the channels open on nuts and bolts of book exchange / information and distribution that such a list as this can only partially fulfill. The sheer fact that the Irish poets had never met each other is staggering proof enough of the need for more such events and better channels of communication. Many of those who had had some exchanges through this medium were meeting for the first time. I found all of this, putting a hand and a hug and a voice and a face to a name, close to exhilerating. It was curious how many people, myself not included, seemed to have formed an image of each other from their post. And then there were all those who, for various reasons, were missing and sorely missed. see you in Dublin, Sydney, Vancouver, Cape Town, Rotterdam or London love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:48:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: late assemblages (longish) In-Reply-To: Message of 09/16/96 at 14:56:01 from cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK Grateful for cris cheek's reminder of the riches at Durham, after some the some what recriminatory tone of some recent postings on that thread. Myself, I came away with pages of Things to Do: books to read, people to contact, items to track down etc. So here's one: I heard tell of a piece by Gilbert Adair on Bruce Andrews in "Reality Studio" 10. That's not available anywhere in my immediate neighbor- hood, so I want to try to reel it in through Interlibrary loan -- for that I need exact title & page numbers. Could someone in the know kindly supply those? Back-channel would be fine, unless you think the list at large might want to share the reference. Thanks, Brian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:54:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents Charles, I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send me a xerox of that review. Is it any good? Douglas At 03:05 AM 9/16/96 -0400, you wrote: >A critique of the Messerli anthology by Ben Friedlander can be found in Jimmy >& Lucy's House of "K" #8, which begins: > >"Is this the great language poetry anthology?" > >happy reading > >charles > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:18:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: late assemblages (longish) In-Reply-To: Message of 09/16/96 at 10:48:54 from BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU I take it all back. Incredibly, within minutes of posting that request for infor on Adair on Andrews, I received a photocopy of it in the mail. What does this mean? Brian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:08:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Charles Norman Does anyone have information on the poet Charles Norman? I was told he died over the weekend at the age of 92. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:20:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brigham Taylor Subject: Theraputix Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the "poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying, going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz," etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal well-being?? Brigham ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:33:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Theraputix In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:20:00 EDT from Take a look at a new book by Russian writer Vitaly Shentalinsky, called "Arrested Voices", for another take on this question. Chapt 4 describes how poet/scientist Nina Hagen-Torn survived the Gulag & helped many others by composing, memorizing, & reciting poems. Shentalinsky has been a pioneer in getting access to KGB files on victimized writers under Stalin; the book covers the "trials" & punishment of Isaac Babel, B. Pilnyak, Mandelstam, Pavel Florensky, many others, with a lot of long-hidden documentary material. - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:04:39 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: how the west was won and where it got us In-Reply-To: On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Jordan Davis wrote: > Uilleain pipes, Oh uilleain pipes, indeed and indeed, a fine job altogether. g ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents In a message dated 96-09-16 11:08:59 EDT, you write: << I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send me a xerox of that review. Is it any good? Douglas >> Jimmy & Lucy's never made it into the 90's. The last issue of J & L was #9, Jan '89. Ben's review was in #8, Jan '88 & is a fair critique from a sympathetic reader who (largely) reviews the book w/ yr stated aims in sight. charles Looking at the issue again today, I noticed that there is also a review of _Tree_ in it by David Sheidlower. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:47:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Stan Brakhage In-Reply-To: <199609150402.AAA26957@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Brakhage's cancer surgery was successful -- He has been released from the hospital and is recovering at home, still working his way through Ronald Johnson's _Ark_ last I spoke to him. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:46:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Dan Davidson In-Reply-To: <199609150402.AAA26957@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> I got as far as the news about Dan last week and was stopped in my tracks -- it was truly unexpected -- I can't get to the memorial -- but I will record one memory here -- I first began talking with Dan after he instigated a wonderful week-edn conference during his time at San Francisco State -- A couple of years later, Dan, Spencer Selby and I drove up to Crag Hill's place for a publication reading honoring the chapbook of Dan's that Crag had just put out. I was doing a radio program still in those days, and brought along my recording equipment. Whenever Spencer, Dan and I were together, there was fiery conversation. That much time together in a car produced a lot of sparks, one of the most informative drives I've ever taken. As the reading got under way, I noticed a distinct ticking sound in my earphones. I asked Dan to take off his watch. He told me the sound was coming from his heart. I thought Dan was still putting me on, as he had in the car a time or two. He handed me his watch at last; it was digital -- non-ticking -- I was suitably abashed -- The reading was tremendous -- Later that week, as I broadcast Dan's poetry to a South Bay audience of thousands, I sat there in the booth listening to Dan's wonderful work, and his heart valve. It will always be good to have that recording of Dan, but it will always hurt, and I will always be grateful to Dan for giving that work to us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:54:15 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Eric Beach Laura wrote (1st May) ... the American left and artists have a long way to go to even touch the coattails of their Australian counterparts TT.O, thalia, Chris Mann, ACR, Jas Duke, lauren Williams, Eric Beach, Carmel Bird.... Toby Green wrote (3rd May) ... Interesting to see Eric Beach surface in a list of Australian poets. He got anthologized some years back as a young NZ poet. Just to add, Eric was named joint winner a fortnight ago of the Kenneth Slessor Award (a major prize - part of the New South Wales Premier's Award) for his recent (fourth) collection, `Weeping for Lost Babylon'. - great news. Regards Ralph Wessman, Hobart ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:46:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: query: langpo and its discontents At 07:27 PM 9/16/96 -0400, Charles Smith wrote: >In a message dated 96-09-16 11:08:59 EDT, you write: > ><< I didn't know Jimmy & Lucy's still published? Can you send > me a xerox of that review. Is it any good? > > Douglas >> > > >Jimmy & Lucy's never made it into the 90's. The last issue of J & L was #9, >Jan '89. Ben's review was in #8, Jan '88 & is a fair critique from a >sympathetic reader who (largely) reviews the book w/ yr stated aims in sight. > > >charles > >Looking at the issue again today, I noticed that there is also a review of >_Tree_ in it by David Sheidlower. This exchange was fun to watch. I think the obvious confusion here was over which "book" was being reviewed. I too briefly thought you might have been referring to *From the Other Side of the Century* until I remembered Douglas's *'Language' Poetries* from an appropriate period and came to my senses. Momentary time-warp -- good for the soul. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Writing Across the University Program (919) 660-4357 Box 90023, Duke University FAX (919) 660-4381 Durham, NC 27708 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:10:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: (Forwarded) AWOL: Olympic Sports Poet Winners announced A top spin on literary competitions INAUGURAL OLYMPIC SPORTS POET WINNERS ANNOUNCED The winners of the inaugural Olympic Sports Poet Award were announced at the NSW Writers Centre Spring Writing Festival. The judges of the competition were Ron Pretty and Les Wicks and the awards were presented by Andrew Landenberger, current Olympic Champion in yachting (Tornado class). The winners were: FIRST PRIZE: 'First Lady' by Louise Wakeling. Study of the trials of Kay Cottee's history making solo voyage around the world. SECOND PRIZE: "Day my father came to football - Part 2' by Myron Lysenko. Lysenko's threat of intensive training has paid off with this record setting story of parents and benches. THIRD PRIZE: "Work of knowing" by ShaunAnne Tangney. Interestingly also concerned with parents....and basketball. FIRST PRIZE (Junior): "Not last anymore" by Edwina Lau. The thrill, and relief, of coming second last. Competition promoter Michael Katefides said " I am delighted by the way the Sports Poet competition has been accepted in both the sport and literary communities. The internet proved successful in facilitating entries world wide with one being a prize winner. The continued expansion of the Sport Poet award is more than justified when one sees the enthusiasm of the entrants, particularly those of the juniors." Continuing judge, Les Wicks, noted the sharp increase in the standard of the entries. The fact that two of the winners also won last year is no way indicative of the scarcity of quality entries. The winning pieces will be on display at the Network Tennis Australia Centres at Annandale and Wicks Park. Poems are also available for reproduction. For further information contact NTA at 210 Annandale NSW 2038 Australia. Phone 61 2 9566 2100, fax 61 2 95172466. AWOL Australian Writing On Line awol@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 Fax 61 2 7472802 __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)9351 5066 MOBILE 015063970 FAX:(02)9351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: the Outsider] Thought this may interest those in the LA area, but others as well: > > The Outsider (after the Colin Wilson book of the same name) is dedicated to > independent and small press publications and productions--zines, books, > music, performance, etc. We have the largest instore selection of zines in > the LA area --local, national and international publications--and a select > choice of 'alternative' press books from Atlas to Masquerade to > Semiotext(e). The bookstore is located at the borders of Silverlake, Los > Feliz, Hollywood and Los Angeles on Fountain Ave between Vermont and > Sunset. Some upcoming events include readings by science fiction erotica > publisher Cecilia Tan of Circlet Press; world renowned poet, translator > and editor Jerome Rothenberg; cyberpunk/avant-pop philosopher, critic and > editor, Larry McCaffery; and screenings of Dreyer's "The Passion of Joan of > Arc" and Jack Smith's "Flaming Creatures." > > take care > james adams > > the Outsider Bookstore > 4505 Fountain Avenue > Los Angeles, CA 90029 > ph #(213) 660-4361 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:29:31 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nada Gordon Subject: Dan the flaneur The last time I saw Dan was about five years ago. He was coming out of the UC Berkeley art museum, scowling and looking internal. He seemed not at all surprised to see me, although I hadn't seen him for a few years and he knew well I was no longer a bay area resident. In fact he barely spoke to me, and I was a little offended. Much later he apologized for his brusqueness via e-mail, explaining he'd just witnessed a fight which much disturbed him. I asked him in one of our infrequent e-mail exchanges how his physical being was. He said that being sick just made him realize more sharply that he was under the same sentence as everyone else. I wish I still had this message. I do still have a poem he sent me in April. I take the liberty of sharing it here: >Now, other, after > > >Where is it, the bus you've been traveling >the corners and waiting, streets along >blankets, retrospection, libraries >of flowers and fervent ledges in uneasy itinerary >observed, bare there before you. > >What is it to learn at birth >or to have, in the unrest of the streets >no place at all except blindness. >I don't know who you are, here among everyone >the layers of innocence and youth > >and corruption, except that each moment, every breath >reaches through the air of another person >so perfectly, indecent, ignorant of effects >like a recent memory of hunger. >I wish you were here, cradling the starlight out of the sky. > >I have no answers, and expect none >so no single, solitary story is likely to be enough >for me, laying its quiet head on a pillow... >this is the larger part of any opportunity, even >the dictum of impermanence that gnaws at a flowering day > >one color at a time, how it gets into the skin >and then into the ink, the ice there and the warm pleasure. > > >daniel davidson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:35:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Theraputix brigham writes: > Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the > "poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying, > going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological > complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity > Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz," > etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems > as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for > chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway > Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems > to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My > Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The > Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal > well-being?? > > Brigham i can see why poetry's value is in some ways its purported LACK of "use value," and that the scenario above wd be offensively, well, and literally, prescriptive to many folks on this list. however, if poetry saves lives --and probably many folks here have experienced that --who is anyone to say precisely *how* it shd do so. i've had students turn on to David antin, of all poets, as a model of therapeutic journaling because of the "lack" of punctuation. i know someone who was inspired not to kill herself because she saw a caffe fassett (knitting and needlepoint designer) video so full of beautiful colors it gave her hope. i've recounted before on the list a scene in a documentary about a lesbian wedding in which the trite free verse of a hallmark card was read aloud as the moment of deepest feeling between the women. hey, i can laugh at their taste (and i do find the scene comical as well as moving), but to respond *only* with dismissive contempt is to miss something. wouldn't *you* be glad to know that one of your poems --maybe not even one you thought that highly of, or one taken so out of context that you felt that the reader had "misunderstood" it --saved a life? --md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Stan Brakhage In-Reply-To: from "Aldon L. Nielsen" at Sep 16, 96 04:47:39 pm I got the "Re:" but not the original message on this... can somebody reiterate the details? Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > > Brakhage's cancer surgery was successful -- He has been released from the > hospital and is recovering at home, still working his way through Ronald > Johnson's _Ark_ last I spoke to him. > -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:39:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: the end of the world can be directly traced to robert creeley teaching at black mountain college or how i shot the fetishization of text and survived to tell the tale The End of the World Can Be Directly Traced to Robert Creeley <body bgcolor="#ffffff" background="/i/shaft.gif" link="#000000" alink="#000000" vlink="#ffffff" ><p> <table width="480" border="0" ><tr><td width="310" valign="top" colspan="1" ><p><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="310" height="1" ></p><p><a href="/(mt)v/" name="explication" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='explication serves or rather, enrage'; return true" ><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="180" height="70" hspace="20" vspace="10" border="0" ></a></p><p><a href="//" name="explication" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='service an explanation, engage'; return true" ><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="150" height="78" hspace="10" vspace="5" border="0" align="left" ></a><a href="//" name="explication" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='explicate rather sucking meats, flange'; return true" ><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="80" height="80" hspace="20" vspace="5" border="2" align="left" ></a></p><br clear="left" ><p><a href="//" name="explication" onMouseOver="window.sta tus=', enrage - at least that for a heterosexual audience'; return true" ><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="90" height="60" hspace="5" vspace="3" border="0" ></a></p></td><td width="170" rowspan="2" ><p><img src="/i/dot_clear.gif" width="170" height="15" ></p> <p><font size="+1" >&#34;I mean the bottoms are always scared. I always try to tell them, &#39;Look, <a href="http://www.klaaskids .inter.net/pg-0521.htm" name="porn" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='is one of the few contemporary occupations'; return true" >I&#39;m not going to hurt you.</a> <a href="http://www.math.tau. ac.il/~nin/relax.html" name="relax" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='if you relax comfort'; return true" >Just relax</a> - <a href="http://www.vix.com/ men/falsereport/daterape/gut mann.html" name="daterape" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='false report, a former fireman'; return true" >it's not going to be that bad.</a>&#39; </p> <p> <a href="http://copernicus.bbn. com/people/PDavis/htl- chapt2.html" name="does" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='does knot'; return true" >I do</a> have a big dick and I know that. </p> <p> But the bottoms are always scared because they&#39;re usually <a href="http://www.ygc.com/ ygcnew.htm" name="guys" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='we are going to bond we are going to change';return true" >young guys</a> - <a href="http://www.golf.com/ tour/pgatour/ryder/interview s/0920coupstr.htm" name="first" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='receivable criteria'; return true" >it might be their first time</a>. You can see the look of <a href="http://www.ljworld.c om/LJW/archives/sports/05 1396s2.html" name="jelly" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='grow your business'; return true" >fear in their eyes</a>. </p> <p> You know, think about it. <a href="http://www.zen.org/~ jeffrey/cigarette.html" name="collage" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='what happens when you run out of collage?'; return true" >You&#39;re eighteen years old</a>, and all of a sudden you&#39;re in a <a href="http://www.spe.sony .com/Pictures/SonyMovies/ netexclsv.html#IRWIN" name="redrum" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='rooms without person'; return true" >room full of people</a> with lights and cameras watching you, <a href="http://www.thonline. com/news/th0506/stories/97 99.htm" name="near" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='nearly dormant in mat, because linguistic'; return true" >butt naked</a>, as you get a <a href="http://rs.internic.net/c gi-bin/whois?cock.com" name="vagina" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='vaginal inflection'; return true" >cock</a> <a href="http://www.cs.umbc. edu/pub/funny/pickups" name="violence" onMouseOver="window.sta tus=' e n g i n e e r '; return true" >shoved up your</a> <a href="http://rs.internic.net/c gi-bin/whois?ass.com" name="memories" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='within an other entry'; return true" >ass</a>.</p> <p><a href="http://www.virtual.co .il/news/news/arutz7/news.f eb22-96.htm" name="memories" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='please assume to instruct'; return true" >It hurts, but</a> <a href="http://www.dot.state. tx.us/tdotnews/trnscrpt/109 5trns.htm" name="memories" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='within an other entry'; return true" >you don&#39;t want to say anything</a> and let people know what you&#39;re feeling, and <a href="http://www.worldgol f.com/wglibrary/october/par sons.html" name="memories" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='with an urge towards meaning'; return true" >everyone is watching you</a>, so you can&#39;t relax and let it go in.</p> <p>It&#39;s very frightening, and <a href="http://robotics.stanfor d.edu/Ratlist/rats-digest- v2.archive/0077.html" name="memories" onMouseOver="window.sta tus='a kind of guidebook through the workings of the psyche'; return true">the boys are scared</a> shitless, because they know it can be a bad experience.&#34;</font></ p></td></tr></table></p> </body> </html> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:13:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Rod Smith <AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM> Subject: Re: Padmasambhava "When the iron eagle flies and horses run on wheels the Tibetan people will be scattered over the earth and the dharma will go to the land of the red man," --Padmasambhava, 8th Century AD Someone had asked for this a while back. Finally found it in a notebook. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:36:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: David Benedetti <dbenedet@UNM.EDU> Subject: Confidential to everybody on the list How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's imaginary dildo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu> Is there a choice? Can we switch renga-channels and hear instead about Messrs. Bernstein, Rothenberg, and Joris hanging out of the windows at the Chelsea Hotel whilst Mme. Perloff duped Rod Smith with a counterfeit Ouija board and M. Gould tottered out of the bathroom/storeroom holding a crumpled leather bag? Signed, Wondering ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:01:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list well now david, that's an interesting question. it was my understanding that these msgs were not confidential; that they were, in fact, staged specifically for the enjoyment of the poetix audience, and that, privately, loden, wallace and bowering have more likely than not never spoken, met or corresponded. i may be wrong. i've been enjoying the whacky thread that has also included others at times, but if the players want to retire or think they're pushing the envelope on "good taste" or whatever, i'm happy to leave the decision to them. i have not felt my sensibilities to be violated, though in this day plus age, one can't be too careful; loden, bowering et al may be called up before the internet family values committee and given a brisk public spanking. xo as ever, md In message <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's > confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's > imaginary dildo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:21:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list i have been enjoyingt the thread immensely. in the midst of so much talk of how a Modern Poetics must be able to make fun of itself, i found this thread a charming example of precept in action. also, it was fun to have somehting funny in the middle of all the usual nervous seriousness. e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:23:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" <pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Comments: To: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Only if it's a talking dildo. If it's a talking dildo, why then fine. Something along the lines of the Brazen Head of Friar Bacon. Why then, yes, by all means, Let 'er rip. But if not, then not. ---------- From: maria damon To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list Date: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 3:11PM well now david, that's an interesting question. it was my understanding that these msgs were not confidential; that they were, in fact, staged specifically for the enjoyment of the poetix audience, and that, privately, loden, wallace and bowering have more likely than not never spoken, met or corresponded. i may be wrong. i've been enjoying the whacky thread that has also included others at times, but if the players want to retire or think they're pushing the envelope on "good taste" or whatever, i'm happy to leave the decision to them. i have not felt my sensibilities to be violated, though in this day plus age, one can't be too careful; loden, bowering et al may be called up before the internet family values committee and given a brisk public spanking. xo as ever, md In message <Pine.A32.3.91.960917133441.207072B-100000@musca.unm.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's > confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's > imaginary dildo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:38:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list Significant is D Benedetti's hostility -- which was something I certainly felt when I had just started reading the list a year and a half ago -- and which is a standard reaction of people entering poetry 'scenes' -- I asked Charles Bernstein once at the ear whether he knew why people behaved that way -- I was myself shaking with rage at having to be at the ear at the time -- I wanted a diagnosis -- he said he had an idea but just then the reading started and I forgot to ask him ever again -- why do people get angry at poetry discussions when they're about to start talking in them -- I would supply some more first-person narrative / anecdotes but it's been too long since I started blabbing my head off about things I know nothing about -- that is, I'm past hostility and part of the problem -- I hope -- Jordan -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:56:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: "M. Gould" <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400 from <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:49:29 -0400 Gwyn McVay said: >Is there a choice? Can we switch renga-channels and hear instead about >Messrs. Bernstein, Rothenberg, and Joris hanging out of the windows at >the Chelsea Hotel whilst Mme. Perloff duped Rod Smith with a counterfeit >Ouija board and M. Gould tottered out of the bathroom/storeroom holding a >crumpled leather bag? I've been trying really hard to restrain my probabblenouncements on this list, but now I have to take my stand & set the record straight. I was not tottering. I was rehearsing for my upcoming Reading (note to self: remember to check mail for Invitation To Read). Furthermore, it was not a leather bag. It was Plasmahyde. & I will act as my own lawyer from heretofore and what'smoretofore etc. etc. [see attached deposition]. Judge Elmer Pudge is handling this case, he's known to be tough on the bench (it looks like a very warped skateboard). So bring your flip pads, ginnelmen & ladles of the 4th estate: this one's going over the top. [1. excerpted from: _The National Enquirer : A Bibliography of Contemporary Scandals, Mysteries, and Visitations_, ed. by Ridgewood Frobisher. Squeamish Univ. Press, 1983] - M. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:17:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes, or just whether we are in favor of public spanking, or that we don't have to be responsible for the spanking, hire the spankeurs, be the spankees, but through no fault of our own get to be there, or is someone about to admit in public that no matter how much confidentiality that dildo violated, his wife stands by him? beth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:53:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list Jordan wrote: I asked Charles Bernstein once at the ear whether he knew why people behaved that way -- I was myself shaking with rage at having to be at the ear at the time -- I wanted a diagnosis -- ____ I had similar reactions at the throat and knows, but there was no doctor bernstein on hand to ask. Re: the dildo-- no fun if it's just made up, when there's a real one, then it will make an interesting thread. And now that Maria's promised spankings-- oh wow, this is big treat! daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:33:13 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: wystan <w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Theraputix Comments: To: damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Maria You speak of how Poetry Saves Lives. I've also heard tell it can kill. Sure, I'd be glad if a poem of mine--no matter how misread it was (although I do have insurance cover for the misreading of my work)--saved a life, about like I'd be sad if someone died because of a poem of mine. But I'd still put in my claim. Your good health Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:58:31 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list Hi David Benedetti, I'm a bit late on this one, but I've been following the electronic epistolary tale cum electronic renga-novel with bated breath, on the edge of my seat, while poets and critics were confusing one another on the other channel. Is there such a thang as an e'couteur, as distinct from a voyeur, it's me. I'm glad tho yr objection is now public, rather than back-channel. As always, you have yr trusty Delete button at hand? all the best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:01:46 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Eric Beach Dear Ralph, is that a typo, Toby Green? Glad to know E Beach is alive and well and active. I liked the anthologized NZ poems. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:22:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Mark Roberts <M.Roberts@ISU.USYD.EDU.AU> Subject: Re: Eric Beach >Dear Ralph, is that a typo, Toby Green? Glad to know E Beach is alive >and well and active. I liked the anthologized NZ poems. >best > >Tony Green, >e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz I just remebered a grant Cauldwell poem about standing on the shore of a bay in Tasmania (hi Ralph) with Eric smoking a joint and arguing about the moonlight......... __________________________________ Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia M.Roberts@isu.usyd.edu.au PH:(02)9351 5066 MOBILE 015063970 FAX:(02)9351 5081 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list Now wait: someone said i "promised spankings" --i did no such thing. Here at the Internet Family Values Ass'n, all public spankings are fully consensual and cannot be promised by any other than the prospective spankees. Our highly trained specialists are ready to punish, avec bells and whistles etc, any and all willing spankees, be they of the loden-bowering, uh, stripe or of the, uh, how can i put this, benedetti persuasion. i cannot promise for them. they must submit willingly. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:48:15 -0600 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list thread trashing is easy. if you want to change the subject or start a new thread, go right ahead. trash may float, but it don't fly. Pete Landers (by the way, this is a new address) landers@frontiernet.net David Benedetti wrote: > > How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's > confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's > imaginary dildo? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:53:05 -0600 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: Theraputix It is difficult to get the poetry from the news... Brigham Taylor wrote: > > Did anyone see the piece in the City section of yesterday's NYTimes about the > "poetry as therapy" group in Brooklyn??? It was hilarious and horrfying, > going so far as to provide a chart matching up specific psychological > complaints with specific poems (almost all chestnuts); i.e. Identity > Crisis--Dickinson's "I'm Nobody"; Alcoholism--Roethke's "My Papa's Waltz," > etc. Now, I think we all might be able to make some money suggesting poems > as cures for physical ailments. Like for Constipation--"Howl" or for > chronic B.O.--"asphodel oh greeny flower" or for overeating--Galway > Kinnel's "The Bear." But why stop there? Maybe we can use specific poems > to cure ideological ills as well: Unpatriotic??? Try "O Captain My > Captain" or "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner." Anti-recycling??? "The > Waste Land," Natch!!! Who else can contribute ideas to our communal > well-being?? > > Brigham ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:21:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list >How many of you on the list want to hear about Rachel Loden's >confidential messages to Mark Wallace concerning George Bowering's >imaginary dildo? This benedetti guy must have dildos on the mind. There was no dildo, imaginary or otherwise, mentioned at all in our rather unsubtle satire of US Leftist adventurism. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:33:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list >Now wait: someone said i "promised spankings" --i did no such thing. Now look, Maria, you promised me one via back-channel. Okay, maybe that doesnt count, certainly not as a "public" spanking. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:35:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the list i thought the object in question was col. mustard's candle stick holder. and here i was trying to shape my wick and get it to stand up, boy i feel stupid. >This benedetti guy must have dildos on the mind. There was no dildo, >imaginary or otherwise, mentioned at all in our rather unsubtle satire of >US Leftist adventurism. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:04:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Hoist the spanker. At 04:17 PM 9/17/96 EST, you wrote: >Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:47:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: Barbara Guest reading in San Francisco Hi it's Kevin Killian. Perhaps some of you who live in San Francisco or who will be here Sunday will want to come to see Barbara Guest, who will be reading at Avery Burns' series at Canessa Park, Sunday, the 22nd, at 3:00 p.m. It's the book launch for her new book, the title of which I cannot properly reproduce via e-mail, but it's something like "Quill Solitary Apparition" (with lots of different spaces and italics) from Post Apollo Press. This appearance should answer the question, how will La Guest top her last public appearance. Bay Area theater goers have awarded her the Sarah Siddons prize for her remarkable Margo-Channing style performance in my play "Island of Lost Souls" this past spring. She tore up the stage as Clarice, the sister of Claus von Bulow...Clarice, a character torn from a lost John Webster Jacobean decadent play, obsessed by her incestuous relationship with her brother (played by Rex Ray), bitterly opposed to his marriage to spoiled, insipid, diabetic heiress Sunny (Alicia Wing). "Blow out the candles, Clarice!" Anyway although she will be playing no character on Sunday, she is still a diva assoluta and it should be quite a show!! Thanks everyone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:25:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: Tom Field show opens in San Francisco Hi, it's Kevin Killian. I hope all of you on this list who live here in San Francisco (or anyone who plans to visit here within the next 6 weeks of so) will get the chance to see this wonderful show which opens tomorrow. It's called "Paintings from Black Mountain College and the Beat Era," it's the first large show of the work of the late Tom Field, who died here a year ago, and this is the address: 871 Fine Arts, 49 Geary Street, San Francisco. Tom Field was born in 1930, went to Black Mountain College (there's a great story in Martin Duberman's book about the time he tried to run down Robert Creeley in a car), met Robert Duncan and Jess there @ 1956, and came to San Francisco when the College closed in 1957. In San Francisco he joined a host of other "Mountaineers" including Joe Dunn, John Wieners, Basil King, etc., etc. and began work as a merchant mariner, shipping out and shipping in, a sailor's life, blah blah blah. While on land he produced in short order at least a dozen large A-E type magnificent paintings and became Jack Spicer's favorite painter. For a while he lived in the famous East-West House where he met Joanne Kyger, Lew Welch, Jack Kerouac, Lenore Kandel and so forth (in Kerouac's novel "Big Sur" he appears under the name "Lanny Meadows," not so imaginative I suppose). Last year he died there @ 65. Robin Blaser has written the essay that accompanies this show, which gathers together for the first time most of the great pictures from the late fifties and early sixties, drawn from a variety of private collections (Kyger, Jess, Fran Herndon, Ernie Edwards, etc). I sneaked in to the gallery last Saturday, while the Rauschenberg show was still up, and saw the Field pictures leaning against the walls, not hung yet, and I was blown away. If there's any justice this exhibition should re-write Bay Area art history...it's miles better than SFMOMA's over-hyped "Abstract Expressionists of San Francisco" show which is running concurrently. Come on down! Tell me what you think. The reception is tomorrow (Thursday) between 5:30 and 7:30--California time, so you could probably show up Saturday and the reception would still be going on. Thanks everyone! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:07:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK> Subject: CD announcement / spoken word Sound & Language are proud to announce their first spoken word CD release: 'skin upon skin' by cris cheek (SLCD0300) three pieces are featured ('Skin Upon sKin' + 'rooftop fog' w/ Sianed Jones + 'stranger' w/ Sianed Jones) at a total playing time of over 70 minutes. 'cris cheek is capable of vocalisations that seamlessly weld plummy Olivien Shakespeare to Hollywood demons, mournful blues to Madagascan laments, and are able to pull through them texts that glimmer and shudder in social fierceness, pathos and humour. Cheek's merging of cultural high ground and political lowlife is unpredictable, its cunning velocity quivers on the edge of mania.' (Brian Catling) The production quality is extremely high. Price: Ten pounds sterling (inc) Fifteen dollars (inc p& p) cash payment (dollars or sterling) U.K cheques or international money orders only - made payable directly to Sound & Language thanks Suzy Lacey (production assistant) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:54:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Mark Wallace <mdw@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU> Subject: language poetry on treble Hey Jordan: My own take on one of the main legacies of the language poets (to the extent, when and where, that they constitute a group, which they do in specific ways and not in specific others) is the necessity for an intense critique of all other poetry coming before and around you, etc. So pointed critique is not simply what language poets deserve, both as a group and as individuals, but something their methods often literally demand. One of my points in at least one of those essays is that what counts, I think, is the difference between critiques of language poetry that work and critiques that do not, and my attempt at least partly was to involve both; that is, both to critique those positions that seemed to me not to work, as well as to put forward some critiques that seemed to me more workable. I'm not a fan of language poetry, for instance in the way that one would be (should be!--go birds!) a fan of the Baltimore Orioles (but not a fan of the business of sports), although there are times and places that one should cheer on poetry even if it means Robert Frost (ever work at a community college?). Rather, as a poet and a writer on poetry I take myself to be ENGAGED with the questions that poets from multiple traditions put forward--I cheer and I rage, I love and I hate, and I try as much as possible to put grounds for those attitudes (and their lack of ground) out on the table. mark wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | | to go to extremes" | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:02:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Carried away by something, I have no idea what, I posted the one from column a query Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e. breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side, beth ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:23:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU> Subject: Mag/Press listing Comments: cc: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@lictor.acsu.buffalo.edu> If you are publishing a magazine or running a press and you do not have a listing at the Electronic Poetry Center, consider filling out the form that follows. We'd love to share our 13,000 transactions a month with you! One of our goals is to get good writing to those who seek it! -- Loss ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Electronic Poetry Center Mag/Press Listing Listing Created/Revised: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Title: Editor(s): Postal Address: E-mail (if available): Issn [if mag]: Frequency: Sub. Cost: Ed. Stmt: [General statement - a few words or longer if you wish. This sometimes helps, for example: new British poets, e.g. - You may also write at greater length.] - either - Issue Info [mags]: Issue by issue descriptions - or - Publications [presses]: List of publications with descriptions (and ISBNs if possible) [If you have both a mag and a press please fill out one form for each. Submit forms by e-mail with "EPC Mag/Press listing" in the subject line and send to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Loss Glazier <lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU> Subject: Mag/Press Listing If you are publishing a magazine or running a press and you do not have a listing at the Electronic Poetry Center, consider filling out the form that follows. We'd love to share our 13,000 transactions a month with you! One of our goals is to get good writing to those who seek it! -- Loss ------------------------- <--- cut here ---> -------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Electronic Poetry Center Mag/Press Listing Listing Created/Revised: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Title: Editor(s): Postal Address: E-mail (if available): Issn [if mag]: Frequency: Sub. Cost: Ed. Stmt: [General statement - a few words or longer if you wish. This sometimes helps, for example: new British poets, e.g. - You may also write at greater length.] - either - Issue Info [mags]: Issue by issue descriptions - or - Publications [presses]: List of publications with descriptions (and ISBNs if possible) [If you have both a mag and a press please fill out one form for each. Submit forms by e-mail with "EPC Mag/Press listing" in the subject line and send to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Loss Glazier <lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu> http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:51:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis > >Are we voting on public spanking vs confidentially talking dildoes, Personally, I'd have to vote for the confidentially talking dildoes. None of the dildoes in my museum-collection of Dildoes Throughout History says a WORD. I'm a bit muffed, I mean miffed. Rachel Loden "O Tiger-lily," said Alice, addressing herself to one that was waving gracefully about in the wind, "I wish you could talk!" "We can talk," said the Tiger-lily: "when there's anybody worth talking to." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:55:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Ron Silliman <rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM> Subject: Confidential to David Benedetti Personally I would LOVE to see George Bowering spanked with a dildo, if that is now what is being offered or promised. As an epistolery novel, this thread has great potential. It's already a far more interesting project than, say, Griffin and Sabine. And just think what this technology will make possible in a few years--we'll take the "virtual" right out of it! Oggling, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:14:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Steve Carll <sjcarll@SLIP.NET> Subject: Re: Confidentially... Golly, Maria, if I'd known you were THAT type of girl, I wouldn't have left so soon after your Stein lecture at New College. 'Course, if I'd known you were that type of girl, I wouldn't have been able to CONCENTRATE on your Stein lecture. ********************************** sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll In seed- sense the sea stars you out, innermost, forever. --Paul Celan ********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:17:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tod Thilleman <tunguska@TRIBECA.IOS.COM> Subject: Re: poets/painters collaborate in NYC KEEP BREATHING/ KEEP SHOUTING Artists and Writers Collaborating September 18 thru 28, 1996 reception and poetry reading: Saturday, Sept. 21 5 - 7 pm 450 Broadway Gallery, 4th floor between Grand and Canal info: karen Marston @ 718-369-3036 artists/writers J.F. Ahlin/John Williams Winifred McNeill/John Woodruff James Barr/ Anne Elliot Karen Marston/Inna Mattei Meredtih Bergmann/Michael Bergmann Lisa Martin/Gail Feldt Ardythe Ashley Robert Bruce/Tod Thilleman Ellen Louise Smith/Duane McDiramid Fred Caruso/Burt Kimmelman Kerry Stevens/David Cameron Juri Kim/Gina Bonati Audrey Stone/Dina Ben-Lev David Lantow/Todd Colby Paul Vilinsky/Jonathun Blunk limited number catalogues available for out of towners intnersted: e-mail backchannel me adfdress ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: Lisa Robertson / treble kicker No Lisa's not joining Pavement, not that I know of -- but does anybody have her e-mail address or phone number? __ Mark -- I'm all for pointed critique, being a wayward fan of the all, but in my neighborhood everybody wants me to turn up the _bass_ -- then I do and I can't hear the words -- gotta hear the words -- Jordan PS Why is everything produced in the 80s accused of using the modes of Reaganism? Why are those 80s producers of cultural goods regarded as _collaborators_ and not as people exhibiting symptoms? Or am I just rehashing cultural critique I haven't read. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:20:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Lisa Samuels <lsr3h@FARADAY.CLAS.VIRGINIA.EDU> Subject: McCaffery e-address? would steve mccaffery or another kind person please backchannel me his e-address? pretty please with sugarplums? send to samuels@virginia.edu thanks much lisa s. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidentially... steve carl writes: > Golly, Maria, if I'd known you were THAT type of girl, I wouldn't have left > so soon after your Stein lecture at New College. > > 'Course, if I'd known you were that type of girl, I wouldn't have been able > to CONCENTRATE on your Stein lecture. > > ********************************** > sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll > > In seed- > sense > the sea stars you out, innermost, forever. > > --Paul Celan > ********************************** well now steve. i didn't know celan was THAT kind of a guy; if i'd known i might have sought out john felstiner a little more aggressively during my graduate school years. and to think, i spent a weekend with pierre and nicole without even knowing.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:07:41 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis For this we would have to blame quayle >But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that >how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e. > >breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side, > >beth > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:57:43 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps a vibrator. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:12:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Again, the Internet Family Values Ass'n wishes to go on record as saying that it neither condones nor performs battery, simple or aggravated by assault; it administers with the exquisite expertise of its ministers, delicious punishment that is explicitly begged for. This is our plain, simple, and unbeatable recipe for American society, of which we are the foundation and the cornerstone. bests always, md In message <ACA25849BD@ccnov2.auckland.ac.nz> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps > a vibrator. best > > Tony Green, > e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: redux is a drug and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:35:16 GM+5 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: VIDAVER <VIDAVER@SLAIS.UBC.CA> Organization: SLAIS, UBC Subject: Dildo & The Real In reply to Daniel Bouchard's concern for a real dildo, I am happy to inform the list that there is a small town, just north of Blakeville and east of Spread Eagle, Newfoundland, named "Dildo". In fact, there is a series of locations within that vicinity that are unabashedly specified by the name, such as Dildo Pond, South Dildo, and Dildo Island (which is an important archaelogical site containing Beotuk and Maratime Archaic Indian remains). Of interest in this connection is the curious absence of Dildo (or "Dildo," that is, the word) in that poem in Robin Blaser's "Syntax" sequence of _The Holy Forest_ entitled, "The Mystic East" where we find, naturally, Heart's Content (just north of Dildo) and the names of some of the other points along Trinity Bay. As Bowering notes, the imaginary dildo is itself imaginary vis-a-vis the ongoing collaboration because it did not exist until Benedetti invented it. However, because of this remark we now have "Bowering's Imaginary 'Imaginary Dildo,'" as an entity which forms part of the reality of this world-disclosive electronic mailing list. This may be an unpleasant multiplication for subscribers who have certain expections about the functions and structures of POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, but for someone who is studying the form of electronic records and their disposition to archives, it makes for exciting and complex study. Aaron Vidaver vidaver@slais.ubc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:52:41 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real and i fought the dildo was extant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:23:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Tom Field show opens in San Francisco Kevin, any information about the Tom Field show travelling? Well, I guess it IS a SF thing, and I guess I'd better not get my hopes up. But I have always dug that man, I mean paintings and things said. I met him only once, at some kind of rehearsal of someone's masque, i think, in about 1962. He was wearing a nice plain sweater with very visible stitches, and he was quiet and assured. He was only the second Black Mountaineer I met. Is there going to be a catalogue, with Robin's piece, and pictures? Available.? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:24:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@PAUL.SPU.EDU> Subject: Re: CD announcement / spoken word In-Reply-To: <843051506.26198.0@slang.demon.co.uk> > Sound & Language are proud to announce their first spoken word CD > release: Sounds great. But what is the Sound & Langauge address? =bc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:33:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Confidentially... > i spent a weekend with pierre and nicole >without even knowing.--md Yeah, Maria. They are like that. I once spent a weekend in a hot tub with them and didnt notice. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:38:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis >For this we would have to blame quayle Isnt that Quayl ? > > >>But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that >>how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e. >> >>breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side, >> >>beth >> >> George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis >Re dildos. The mention of "batteries" suggested that the "object" was perhaps >a vibrator. best > >Tony Green, >e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz Now, I think that is just a little hasty. Well, it is a kind of fixation for Brits, and as we know, New Zealanders are really south seas Brits. I mean, come on: lots of objects employ batteries. Travel alarm clocks, for instance. Laptops (oops). Well. . . well. . . uh, gameboys (oops). . well... George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:54:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug > what do you wish would happen here > >Jordan Same thing that happens in "East Coker". George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real One day last spring the famed poet George Stanley pickled his hair. Held his head in brine for quite some time, and then had Wanda work on his locks. Among the poets of Robson Street at least, George Stanley was the first to have a dill do . George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:46:54 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: DS <dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ> Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis At 07:38 PM 9/18/96 -0700, you wrote: >>For this we would have to blame quayle > > >Isnt that Quayl ? Que? >> >> >>>But I am glad to learn (since I didn't check my Warner's) that >>>how more than one talking dildo is not spelled with an e. >>> >>>breathlessly awaiting the write-ins from Chicago's North Side, >>> >>>beth >>> >>> > > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 >e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:54:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In message <v01530505ae664b6403f0@[166.84.199.56]> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv > if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again > now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here > > Jordan life, love, unceasing efflorescence of creative ecstasy, smarttalk, silliness, and social responsibility. lifelong friendships, inconceivable depth of soulful conversation, ethereal heights of giddy triumph of the inane, and so forth. bests always, md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real does anyone have any etymological info on the word "dildo" either as a sex toy or as the place-names mentioned below?--md ps it cd almost be a weaving word, it's that silly sounding. In message <1237F9509D2@slais.ubc.ca> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > In reply to Daniel Bouchard's concern for a real dildo, I am happy > to inform the list that there is a small town, just north of > Blakeville and east of Spread Eagle, Newfoundland, named "Dildo". > In fact, there is a series of locations within that vicinity that are > unabashedly specified by the name, such as Dildo Pond, South Dildo, > and Dildo Island (which is an important archaelogical site containing > Beotuk and Maratime Archaic Indian remains). > > Of interest in this connection is the curious absence of Dildo (or > "Dildo," that is, the word) in that poem in Robin Blaser's "Syntax" > sequence of _The Holy Forest_ entitled, "The Mystic East" where > we find, naturally, Heart's Content (just north of Dildo) and the > names of some of the other points along Trinity Bay. > > As Bowering notes, the imaginary dildo is itself imaginary > vis-a-vis the ongoing collaboration because it did not exist until > Benedetti invented it. However, because of this remark we now > have "Bowering's Imaginary 'Imaginary Dildo,'" as an entity > which forms part of the reality of this world-disclosive > electronic mailing list. This may be an unpleasant multiplication > for subscribers who have certain expections about the functions and > structures of POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU, but for someone > who is studying the form of electronic records and their disposition > to archives, it makes for exciting and complex study. > > Aaron Vidaver > vidaver@slais.ubc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real in searching for info on dildo etymology i came across the http://www.oed.com/ site which although it is not open yet looks to be a wonderful machine. FYI. >does anyone have any etymological info on the word "dildo" either as a sex toy >or as the place-names mentioned below?--md ps it cd almost be a weaving word, >it's that silly sounding. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:21:52 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Hugh Nicoll <hnicoll@FUNATSUKA.MIYAZAKI-MU.AC.JP> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real In-Reply-To: <v02130500ae6694b58ecf@[198.147.97.117]> Re: OED on "dildo", from the CD-ROM version dildo1. Also dildoe. a. A word of obscure origin, used in the refrains of ballads. Also, a name of the penis or phallus, or a figure thereof; spec. an artificial penis used for female gratification; the lingam of Hindu worship; formerly, also, a contemptuous or reviling appellation of a man or lad; and app. applied to a cylindrical or <oq>sausage<cq> curl. <Ntilde>1593 T. Nashe Choise of Valentines or the Merie Ballad of Nash his Dildo (1899) 20 Curse Eunuke dilldo, senceless counterfet. 1598 Florio Worlde of Wordes 261/3 Pastinaca muranese, a dildoe of glasse. Ibid. 278/2 Pinco, a prick, a pillicock, a pintle, a dildoe. 1610 B. Jonson Alch. v. iii, Here I find..The seeling fill<cq>d with poesies of the candle: And Madame, with a Dildo, writ o<cq> the walls. 1611 Shakes. Wint. T. iv. iv. 195 He has the prettiest Loue-songs for Maids..with such delicate burthens of Dildo<cq>s and Fadings. <Edh>1627 Middleton Chaste Maid i. ii, What, has he got a singing in his head now? Now<cq>s out of work he falls to making dildoes. 1638 Ford Fancies iv. i, This page a milk-livered dildoe. 1647 Parl. Ladies 12 The very sight of this Madam with a Dildoe..put the House into a great silence. <Ntilde>1650 Roxb. Ball. II. 455 She prov<cq>d herself a Duke<cq>s daughter, and he but a Squire<cq>s son. Sing trang dildo lee. 1656 S. Holland Zara (1719) 41 That Gods may view, With a dildo-doe, What we bake, and what we brew. 1659 Torriano, Bacillo..a simple gull, a shallow pate, also a dill-doe, or pillie-cock. 1661 R. W. Conf. Charac. To Rdr. (1860) 7 O thou faint-hearted dildo. 1688 R. Holme Armoury ii. 463/2 A Campaign Wig hath Knots or Bobs (or a Dildo on each side) with a curled Forehead. 1698 Fryer Acc. E. India 179 Under the Banyan Tree, an Altar with a Dildo in the middle being erected, they offer Rice. 1785 Grose Dict. Vulgar T. s.v., Dildoes are made of wax, horn, leather, and diverse other substances. 1886 Burton Arab. Nts. X. 239 Of the penis succedaneus,..which the Latins called phallus and fascinum, the French godemich<eacu> and the Italians passatempo and diletto (whence our <oq>dildo<cq>), every kind abounds. 1952 Auden Nones 11 The nude young male who lounges Against a rock displaying his dildo. 1965 New Statesman 9 Apr. 570/2 Why does it matter so much to them whether lesbians use a dildo or not? b. Comb. dildo-glass, a cylindrical glass; ? a test-tube. <Ntilde>1625 Fletcher Nice Valour iii. i, Whoever lives to see me Dead, gentlemen, shall find me all mummy, Good to fill galipots, and long dildo-glasses. dildo2. [prob. the same word as prec., from its cylindrical form like a <oq>dildo-glass<cq>.] A tree or shrub of the genus Cereus (N.O. Cactace<ae>). Also dildo-tree, dildo-bush, dildo pear tree. 1672 W. Hughes Amer. Physitian 43 The Tree was long since called by the Spaniards, and by the Negroes that lived there, the Dildoe-Tree; and the English retain the same name still. 1696 Phil. Trans. XIX. 296 The Dildoe-tree is the same with the Cereus or Torch-Plant. 1697 W. Dampier Voy. I. 81 Barren Islands without any Tree, only some Dildo-bushes growing on them. Ibid. 101 The Dildoe-tree is a green prickly shrub, that grows about 10 or 12 foot high, without either Leaf or Fruit. It is as big as a mans Leg, from the root to the top, and it is full of sharp prickles, growing in thick rows. 1700 W. King Transactioneer 11 The Toddy-Tree, the Sower-Sop, the Bonavists, and the Dildoe. 1756 P. Browne Nat. Hist. Jamaica (1789) 238 The larger erect Indian Fig, or Dildo Pear Tree. 1926 Fawcett & Rendle Flora of Jamaica V. 279 C[ereus] peruvianus... Dildo. Dry parts of Jamaica on southern side. 1956 J. Hearne Stranger at Gate xix. 156 It<cq>s like getting a dildo thorn out of your foot. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:13:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK> Subject: Re: CD announcement / spoken word Sorry to all about excluding the mailing address. all mail to: Sound & Language 85 London Road South Lowestoft Suffolk NR33 OAS UK thanks for the enquiries love and biscuits Suzy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:32:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 from <jdavis@PANIX.COM> On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said: >and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv >if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again >now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest (I include myself as one of the culprits). I'm all for humor & lightness (except when I'm against it). Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics". 2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been backchanneled. 3. More regional info & calendars from round de world (with region in subject line). 4. More input from lurkers (both new & jaded old-timers). 5. Discussion on varieties of issues people have brought up, threads never taken up. (Now what were they...) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real In-Reply-To: <3240c6a51467007@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> They are from Water Island off the French Riviera--"d'Ile d'Eau." Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:41:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real An OED is a thing of beauty. Usually find a couple of the two volume versions (the 20 vols entire plus the "supplement") They used to give away as an inducement to join (Which?) Book Club. Also, the Shorter OED is a marvel at one volume. You can keep either right next to the keyboard, in front of your 3rd International Unabridged Webster's (4th due out before the mill). For etyms (of Brit Eng, ScotsIr, and AmerEng), the OED is necessary and delicious. Beth Simon (formerly of the Dictionary of American Regional English (aka among the DARE eds as the dict) Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University - Purdue University ach, i see i didn't finish my sentence above--you can usu fd thm at used bk stores ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real actually, my preference is not for the OED. i adore etymological dictionaries, and i find that the OED is too literary, too exclusively English (i mean, they only give examples from words' appearances in their modern form in English literary texts) and they, for example, didn't have the word "feminism" in there as of the late 1980s except to mean "a feminine gesture, trait, etc". as in, he exhibited a feminism when he flashed that limp wrist. however, this dildo info is useful (the word doesnt apear in my etym dict.) thanks all for the feedback. md In message <009A8986.6CB8D7A8.17@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > An OED is a thing of beauty. Usually find a couple of the two volume > versions (the 20 vols entire plus the "supplement") They used to give > away as an inducement to join (Which?) Book Club. Also, the Shorter > OED is a marvel at one volume. You can keep either right next to > the keyboard, in front of your 3rd International Unabridged Webster's > (4th due out before the mill). > For etyms (of Brit Eng, ScotsIr, and AmerEng), the OED is necessary > and delicious. > > Beth Simon > (formerly of the Dictionary of American Regional English (aka among > the DARE eds as the dict) > Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English > Indiana University - Purdue University > > > > ach, i see i didn't finish my sentence above--you can usu fd thm at > used bk stores ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:37:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Beth Simon <simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> Subject: Re: Dildo & The Real One of noticeable changes from the first Caught In The Web Of Words gang to the folks who did the first Supplement, is that the latter crew read lots and lots and lots of murder mysteries, so sources for use are interesting. Perry Mason, take a bow. I haven't taken a look at the Middle English Dictionary. How's that for etyms? beth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:03:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: Giscombe/Fugitive This is Dodie. =46or my Creative Writing 1 class I assignmed C.S. Giscombe's essay on the T= V series The Fugitive, which is in the Leave Books anthology, _The Poetics of Criticism_. I really like this essay, think it's kind of fun, find Giscombe's revisioning of the fugitive as black so intereting, enjoy his jibes at the white academy, am impressed by the deftness of the slippages in his language. So =8A we get in class yesterday afternoon, and I say something bland like, "What did you think of this essay?" And I got this torrent of complaints: I hated it, this guy can't write, this is reverse racism, this really pissed me off, just because he thinks something it doesn't mean it's true, how dare he say the fugitive isn't black enough, it's ridiculous to say that white people can't teach black writers as well as black people, what does he know about Tracy Chapman's singing! One girl latched onto Giscombe's discussion of Ellison's _Invisible Man_, said, "Have you read that book?" Before I could answer, she added, "I hated it! All that guy did was complain." The bulk of this response came from three (of eleven) students, the ring-leader being the Invisible Man-hater. I tried working with their feelings--yes, Giscombe is using some confrontational language in his piece but =8A But nothing I could do could quite turn the situation around from my trying to defend the essay into looking at what the essay had to offer. Particularly because some of the "pissed off" students had totally misread the essay (for instance Giscombe never says the fugitive isn't black enough--he says quite the opposite) and in their rage were irrational. Unfortunately, there are no black people in the class. To me many of the students' responses reeked of racism--to call a black man's reinterpretation of cultural icons of the 60s reverse racism!!??? =46rankly I'm stunned, don't quite know what to do about this. When we read _Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a seatbelt--that book really is incendiary, wiggers being white suburban kids who want to be black. Braithwaite is black, gay, and Canadian--I'm afraid he's going to be like a Martian to my students. Call in the Marines, blast this alien to smithereens! Speaking of Martians, we are going to be reading Spicer's letters to Lorca. Have any of you dealt with this kind of thing? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:11:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Ian Wilson <iwilson@MGMUA.COM> Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive >When we read _Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a >seatbelt Dodie, Is _Wigger_ a novel? Or what form then? Any chance of turning the discussion away from the perceived content and onto the craft -- if "teaching" creative writing is what you're doing in the workshop? Lately, the fiction workshops I've been in have been barring judgmental comments ("I didn't like the main character") and forcing the respondents to make pure observations such as "All the dialogue is expositional," "Only the main character is round all the rest are flat characters," "The level of discourse is primarily indirect throughout." The first time I saw this in action, it was amazing how much lower the high horses got. All criticism with even a tinge of the ad hominem disappeared. It makes the writer's job more difficult because he or she has to figure out the significance of these remarks. The professor, privately, will discuss their significance for revision purposes. But if you're going to allow content-laden reader-response to the pieces, can you demand textual backup of each respondent's opinion? You said in your post that people misread, can you make them go back into the piece and prove their positions? The New Criticism is still worth something as a pedagogy, I think. Or maybe my suggestions are beyond the scope of a Creative Writing I class, I don't know. Ian Wilson Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles iwilson@mgmua.com http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/story/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:25:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: "Christopher J. Beach" <cjbeach@BENFRANKLIN.HNET.UCI.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96091907504692@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> I would second Henry Gould's suggestions, and I have made some of the same suggestions about the list before. As a jaded old-timer and (mostly) lurker on the list, I would probably be more inclined to *actively* participate if we could cut down a bit on the "silly chatter" and "personal business and replies" and do more substantive discussions like those on poetic form, poets vs. critics, poetry and institutions, future(s) of LangPo, poetry and class, relationships between different poetic communities, musical settings of poetry, etc. Some of these threads have been really interesting. Also I love to hear about conferences (especially those I am unable to attend), new presses, mags, books, etc. And what ever happened to the thread about "what new books I've been reading lately"? I always learn a lot from hearing what everyone's been reading and enjoying, and it is encouraging in this day in age to know that people are still reading. Chris B On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, henry wrote: > On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said: > >and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv > >if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again > >now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here > > 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest (I include myself as one of > the culprits). I'm all for humor & lightness (except when I'm against it). > Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics". > > 2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been > backchanneled. > > 3. More regional info & calendars from round de world (with region in > subject line). > > 4. More input from lurkers (both new & jaded old-timers). > > 5. Discussion on varieties of issues people have brought up, threads > never taken up. (Now what were they...) > - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:00:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: the martians we always have with us Ian -- This is probably a pointless poetically-correct quibble, but would you really call any category of response 'pure'? Sure you want to privilege one kind of reading -- that's one of the perqs of teaching, right? You get to call that shot -- but do you want to put everything on the axis of purity / mixture? It seems loaded, especially when you're trying to deal with hostile racialist readings. 'Objective' doesn't seem much better. If it weren't such a joke, historically, I'd suggest the word 'neutral'. 'Balanced'? 'Unbalanced'? 'Cool'? 'Appropriate'? It's funny, but there may not be a valid common vocabulary for the range of desired response -- which probably has something to do with the end, for educators, of the post-war old-school assessment jargon, and the clumsy shoring (almost wrote 'klupzy girling') together of new ways of talking about what to encourage in students. I say give 'em the martians that are always here, Dodie. One who loves all shores, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive Hi Dodie: welcome to the fun, privileged, protected world of teaching. it's a dreamjob, huhn. i totally and completely sympathize. i've had a lot of this kind of stuff, including people complaining that WEB DuBois is "writing over his head" --(read: I, a white boy from suburban minnesota, feel threatened by a Black Harvard PhD whose prose is poetic and complex); that they have been oppressed too, and the prime example is that when Native Americans exercise their fishing treaty rights, it cuts down on the population of fish available to sports fishermen (i.e. themselves, their dads and uncles--believe it or not, this is one of the hottest political issues in the upper midwest); yes, the term "reverse racism" is widely used. Myself and female friends who teach "minority" and "postcolonial" literatures routinely get evaluations that say stuff like "it is offensive to be forced to read about issues such as poverty and racism..." "there were too many books by minorities in this class"(if its not a class actually entitled "minority lit"); "how can you expect me to read this book [by a Lesbian] since I am not a lesbian" etc etc. It's a real eye opener to those of us who think we're past the age of "identity politics," crude socialist advocacy for the traditionally oppressed, etc. etc.--and who, in some contexts, do argue against a simplistic multiculti-ism. I have actually declined to teach "Literature of American Minorities" for a number of years now for the very reason that i find it utterly demoralizing; also, its an intro lecture class, so there're literally over a hundred (white) students glaring at me and sometimes leaving the classroom, slamming doors behind them. It is also common for the women teaching these classes to have anonymous letters sent to the dept chair complaining about their unfairness, incompetence, etc etc. In message <v01540b00ae66b64a97c5@[205.134.228.42]> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > This is Dodie. > > =46or my Creative Writing 1 class I assignmed C.S. Giscombe's essay on the T= > V > series The Fugitive, which is in the Leave Books anthology, _The Poetics of > Criticism_. I really like this essay, think it's kind of fun, find > Giscombe's revisioning of the fugitive as black so intereting, enjoy his > jibes at the white academy, am impressed by the deftness of the slippages > in his language. So =8A we get in class yesterday afternoon, and I say > something bland like, "What did you think of this essay?" And I got this > torrent of complaints: I hated it, this guy can't write, this is reverse > racism, this really pissed me off, just because he thinks something it > doesn't mean it's true, how dare he say the fugitive isn't black enough, > it's ridiculous to say that white people can't teach black writers as well > as black people, what does he know about Tracy Chapman's singing! One girl > latched onto Giscombe's discussion of Ellison's _Invisible Man_, said, > "Have you read that book?" Before I could answer, she added, "I hated it! > All that guy did was complain." The bulk of this response came from three > (of eleven) students, the ring-leader being the Invisible Man-hater. > > I tried working with their feelings--yes, Giscombe is using some > confrontational language in his piece but =8A But nothing I could do could > quite turn the situation around from my trying to defend the essay into > looking at what the essay had to offer. Particularly because some of the > "pissed off" students had totally misread the essay (for instance Giscombe > never says the fugitive isn't black enough--he says quite the opposite) and > in their rage were irrational. Unfortunately, there are no black people in > the class. To me many of the students' responses reeked of racism--to call > a black man's reinterpretation of cultural icons of the 60s reverse > racism!!??? > > =46rankly I'm stunned, don't quite know what to do about this. When we read > _Wigger_ by Lawrence Braithwaite, I'd better bring in a seatbelt--that book > really is incendiary, wiggers being white suburban kids who want to be > black. Braithwaite is black, gay, and Canadian--I'm afraid he's going to > be like a Martian to my students. Call in the Marines, blast this alien to > smithereens! Speaking of Martians, we are going to be reading Spicer's > letters to Lorca. > > Have any of you dealt with this kind of thing? > > Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:46:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Ian Wilson <iwilson@MGMUA.COM> Subject: Re: the martians we always have with us Jordan, In the pc arena, I can't argue with you on the use of the word "pure." It's a completely loaded word. And I also think that you can't completely separate out the political and talk only about the structural without that decision also being a political one. All that said, writing workshops have been termed the last bastion of New Criticism, and they are when the focus is on craft. So when I say can the discussion be turned to pure observation, any of your other terms will work: neutral observation, non-judgemental observation, observation that focuses solely on the written artifact as a form. Given the heat of the discussion in Dodie's class, it might make for an interesting assignment for the class to respond with an essay to the Fugitive piece. Ian Wilson Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles iwilson@mgmua.com http://www.iglou.com/irwilson/index.shtml ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: the martians we always have with us Author: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> at Internet Date: 9/19/96 2:00 PM Ian -- This is probably a pointless poetically-correct quibble, but would you really call any category of response 'pure'? Sure you want to privilege one kind of reading -- that's one of the perqs of teaching, right? You get to call that shot -- but do you want to put everything on the axis of purity / mixture? It seems loaded, especially when you're trying to deal with hostile racialist readings. 'Objective' doesn't seem much better. If it weren't such a joke, historically, I'd suggest the word 'neutral'. 'Balanced'? 'Unbalanced'? 'Cool'? 'Appropriate'? It's funny, but there may not be a valid common vocabulary for the range of desired response -- which probably has something to do with the end, for educators, of the post-war old-school assessment jargon, and the clumsy shoring (almost wrote 'klupzy girling') together of new ways of talking about what to encourage in students. I say give 'em the martians that are always here, Dodie. One who loves all shores, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:29:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM> Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive Dodie, Maria, et al: The students you are describing are having a natural reaction to your class. Not natural in the sense that they are correct in their reactions, but natural in that what they (probably most) are exposed to up to the point of your class result predictably in those reactions. In other words, they haven't been prepared for the idea that there may be ideas (in the world, in the classroom) that will shake the foundations of ideas that they have come to think of as their own. When presented with radical ideas, they (naturally?) regard it as an attack on their beings. They are 18-22? Obviously, they know everything and the instructor in the room is there to pass the time with (with some book chat). I think that regardless of all the history, issues of race, gender, class, etc. will continue to be radical ideas to many many people. And people find radical ideas threatening. That's why they're radical. I haven't really offered anything in terms of how to deal with this, but want to say that I've been there and have found it just as upsetting. What kind of frame or context are these classes presented to the students? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com Aside, and somewhat relevant: reading about a poll taking in USA about 20 yrs ago. Question: where does this phrase come from "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need?" Most common answer: the Constitution. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive god yes. i have dealt with this kind of thing. it is the despair of my life. i've begun to call it the "righteousness without a cause" syndrome. people i have this theory: think about when literature, or let us say, to try and harness in (though one can never harness them in) the hole-pokers, written formed narratives began. almost no one could read. thus, almost no one could write. thus, there were very FEW written formed narratives. if you adopted the interpretation/cultural placement/knowledge of these narratives as your profession, you were sitting in the catbird seat. fast forward. invention of the printing press. things get a little tougher but not much. fast forward. monks/church schools are teaching more and more people to read, hence more and more people write. the ones who make mastering texts their business are now not so clearly in the catbird seat. ruffians from the bleachers are beginning to sit in their section, beginning to displace them in the seat when they get up to go to the bathroom... fast forward. now. in u.s. and europe, almost everyone can read (i'll take just these areas because they are what i know). now, because so many people can read.... many many people write. now, there is not only a massive, and GROWING backlog of all sorts of Great Literature for the Masters of the Literature Universe to somehow read, interpret, and master, there is MORE of the stuff piling in everyday. so what happens? what has been happening all along, in one way or another, to "control," assert "mastery" over these unruly texts... a criticism of dismissal... i.e. (actual paraphrased quote) "oh the confessionals, they all write about suicide and drugs. freudian melodramas..." using this example. well, there you have it. you never have to read sexton, lowell, snodgrass, plath, etc. becuase now we all know they just write about suicide and drugs and freudian melodramas. BAP. a whole pile dismissed. students pick up the gestalt of criticism of dismissal, and practice it perhaps less gracefully, not in the least becuase a really GOOD criticism of dismissal depends on a sort of haute culture elan, a kind of personal power and unapproachability that makes one able to scare would-be includers off. i say this, fully aware of my own immersion in criticism of dismissal, distrusting it when i don't like a "sort" of poetry... and hearing, god forbid this nightmare, students saying things that sound like me... "oh X poetry, it is just about YZ"... i have been having a running debate with a friend on poetries she is enjoying at present. i thought, from samples she had sent me, that i had them pegged. then she sent some jack spicer poems which i found entrancing, and i have had the designer-outfit-wearing Critics Of Dismissal Ghosts shaking their chains in my doorstep ever since... e ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: BAP critics BAP. a whole pile dismissed. But Eliza, critics are _supposed_ to do that, aren't they? If you take away a critic's privilege of _focus_, then you make the job of general criticism informational and no longer federal, no longer regulatory. That sounds nice, but who then will take a job the products of which everyone ignores (except the few members of the audience who remain ignored), if the power of which, what little there may be, is taken away? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:10:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: BAP critics ayup (a maine noise equivalent to the sound of a burp and a fish line dropping in the water)... tis a tough job but someone has to do it. honestly, we bitch when criticism seems overly regulatory, but we bitch when crummy texts are paraded by lazy writers as Great Writing even though we know they were scrawled on a cocktail napkin the evening before in bad pentameter with june-moon rhymes. or less obvious targets. and then we yearn, even if we don't dare voice it, for the Tough Scary Critics to ride in on their dismissals... i never said i had an answer. if i did, i'd exorcise the Ghosts of Texts Dismissed, as well as the Ghosts of Critics of Dismissal... maybe a little worcestershire sauce on my threshold... e ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:19:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: filch <filch@POBOX.COM> Subject: Re: Giscombe/Fugitive BAP "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." >god yes. i have dealt with this kind of thing. it is the despair of my life. "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." >i've begun to call it the "righteousness without a cause" syndrome. people "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >i have this theory: think about when literature, or let us say, to try and >harness in (though one can never harness them in) the hole-pokers, written >formed narratives began. almost no one could read. thus, almost no one >could write. thus, there were very FEW written formed narratives. if you >adopted the interpretation/cultural placement/knowledge of these narratives >as your profession, you were sitting in the catbird seat. "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >fast forward. invention of the printing press. things get a little tougher >but not much. fast forward. monks/church schools are teaching more and more >people to read, hence more and more people write. the ones who make mastering >texts their business are now not so clearly in the catbird seat. ruffians >from the bleachers are beginning to sit in their section, beginning to displace >them in the seat when they get up to go to the bathroom... "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >fast forward. now. in u.s. and europe, almost everyone can read (i'll take >just these areas because they are what i know). now, because so many people >can read.... many many people write. now, there is not only a massive, and >GROWING backlog of all sorts of Great Literature for the Masters of the >Literature Universe to somehow read, interpret, and master, there is MORE >of the stuff piling in everyday. "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >so what happens? what has been happening all along, in one way or another, >to "control," assert "mastery" over these unruly texts... a criticism of >dismissal... "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >i.e. (actual paraphrased quote) "oh the confessionals, they all write about >suicide and drugs. freudian melodramas..." using this example. well, there >you have it. you never have to read sexton, lowell, snodgrass, plath, etc. >becuase now we all know they just write about suicide and drugs and freudian >melodramas. BAP. a whole pile dismissed. "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >students pick up the gestalt of criticism of dismissal, and practice it perhaps >less gracefully, not in the least becuase a really GOOD criticism of >dismissal depends on a sort of haute culture elan, a kind of personal power >and unapproachability that makes one able to scare would-be includers off. "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >i say this, fully aware of my own immersion in criticism of dismissal, >distrusting it when i don't like a "sort" of poetry... and hearing, god >forbid this nightmare, students saying things that sound like me... "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." > >"oh X poetry, it is just about YZ"... i have been having a running debate with >a friend on poetries she is enjoying at present. i thought, from samples she >had sent me, that i had them pegged. then she sent some jack spicer poems >which i found entrancing, and i have had the designer-outfit-wearing Critics >Of Dismissal Ghosts shaking their chains in my doorstep ever since... "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." >e "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." "Everyone thinks that Milan Kundera is such an important writer. He's completely overated, all he ever does is write about sex." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:24:39 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tony Green <t.green@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Confidential to everybody on the lis Put the apparent haste down to sheer South seas excitement. Best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:58:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug >On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said: >>and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv >>if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again >>now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here >2. Less personal & business messages & replies that should have been >backchanneled. And a more sure command of vocabulary. No use of "less" where "fewer" is indicated, for instance. > George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug more personal chat. i want to know everyone's bra size. more humor. less nervous seriousness. winning lotto numbers (before they are picked). more poems. reading announcements. book announcements. tenure-gaining announcements. theoretical posits. theoretical refutations. refutations of theory. posits of theory. post-structuralist positions. post modernist positions. pre modern positions. prestructural renovations in position. queries about quotes. thrills chills and everyone's bra size. what people are reading. why. why not. why no one reads miles kundera (i hear it's cause all he talks about is sex... you'd think that would go over big). political alerts. poetical alerts. obits. birth announcements. celebrations. job openings. The Stuff Of Life. e ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:50:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: bitmap <filch@POBOX.COM> Subject: Nexis Lexis This might be of interest, it concerns "a service from Nexis Lexis called P-Trax. In this email it was said that this (PAY ONLY) database was being made available by Lexis and in it was all kinds of personal and private information about .. well just about EVERYBODY! .. the email went on to say that the data included our name ('s) that might include your maiden name or aliases you may have used, your current address and maybe your previous address, your social security number, your mother's maiden name, your birth date and other personal information. Well this sure put the 'fear of the net' in me in a big big hurry! =-) BUT... I called the (very stressed and phone abused) folks at Lexis and I found out the real deal... It seems the kind of data thats held within that database includes the following: Your Name and maybe other names you may have gone by. Your Current Address and maybe a previous address. Your Phone Number Update: Some net.seaching did turn up this very interesting story that was done by our good friends at c|net Central... You can read it in full text at their new web site http://www.news.com/ a fast link direct to the story is http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,1539,00.html. Anyway in that story I found out that Lexis does (or did) indeed have our Social Security Numbers and they were AT ONE TIME indeed in the P-TRAK database but thanks to some complaints that came in.. it seems that a few members of congress (after the c|net story was published) may have been concerned as well and the information was indeed removed. Now I still think thats more information than I want strangers to know about me... Especially without me knowing about it first. Heck, its nobodys business where my previous residence was even if I did live on Mars before calling this nice planet my home =-) and does anyone else really need to know that at one time I went by the assumed name 'Derrenger Dave From Deluth' I don't think so... =-) Okay.. all kidding aside, personal privacy is very important to us all (or should be) and if you think your name might be contained in this database you really should consider if you want it to remain there. Yes Virgina you can indeed get it removed. How you ask... well thats were Lexis-Nexis makes it kinda tricky... Lexis will not take you name off the database unless you send them your Name and Address via fax or snailmail - they refuse to do it via phone, email or web. I have to tell you this does indeed make me a little mad so instead of being nice and putting their fax number in this little story I have chosen to instead post their 1-800 number from that number a recording tells users the address and fax number... the way I look at it, 'let them pay for the call' Oh, I also have another bone to pick with them... When I called them I simply wanted to find out if my name was indeed in their database and exactly what personal information they did have up for sale on me, because I figure if it isn't in their database already then why on earth should I fax them the info! Well, do you know what I was told??? The charge for the search would be $85.00. If thats not nerve... Doesn't the United States Federal Govenment have some kinda laws covering this kinda thing?? Damn!! CHARGING ME just to see if they are making money by USING MY NAME... So once again... LET THEM PAY FOR THE CALL! (800) 543-6862 I for one WILL have my name removed from that list... and remember please pass this story around but PLEASE make sure you are not spreading mis-information (remember this DB does NOT have SSN, DOB, Mothers Name and some 'reports' I've seen even eluded to the fact they they also had credit info on you... this stuff is not true... if it were imagine how mad I would have been =-)" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET> Subject: Re: redux is a drug henry wrote: > 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly. > Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics". Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's a source of puzzlement. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <324285FD.6D2A@concentric.net> Rachel, I thought h's post *was* satire. Is there (obligatory crit jargon alert!) room for an alternative reading of the text in question? Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:22:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 from <rloden@concentric.net> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 Rachel Loden said: >henry wrote: > >> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest > >Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of >dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of >poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly. Was I referring to some thread you were involved in, Rachel? I don't think I mentioned any particular thread. Nor did I claim that the poets & critics thread was "fascinating". Who's assuming what about who? Did I say satire was silly? I remember I did say that I considered myself "one of the culprits." - & I mean, engaging in silly chatter! (much of it about poets & critics) > >> Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics". > >Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking >for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear >a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the >narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's >a source of puzzlement. I agree with that. Jordan asked what we would like to see on the list. I gave my opinion - which is: I miss some of the intense complicated discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth of in the last few months (maybe it's summer, maybe it's too much chatter - mine included). The best thing in these list police discussions (which are mostly self-defeating) is to just START a discussion, as many have already pointed out. Meanwhile, I'll keep searching for a new opportunity to be baffled. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:49:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400 from <gmcvay1@OSF1.GMU.EDU> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:16:18 -0400 Gwyn McVay said: >Rachel, I thought h's post *was* satire. Is there (obligatory crit jargon >alert!) room for an alternative reading of the text in question? > Gwyn, let me make myself perfectly less fewer clear: I was deadly.... serious, SERIOUS. As alwayszzzzzz.......(huffle huffle snort snort).......zzzzzz - What's his name. Choreman of the Bored BORED ANNOUNCEMENT A new poetics sub-group spinoff has been formed. We're calling ourselves the "cool poetics nerds". To join, well, it's kind of a clique, some of us just felt we weren't satisfied, you know, it's like an in-group thing. Calling ourselves the Z-team, ******* started it a few weeks ago, we're all still part of the poetics list anyway. But if you're alabaster, neuter, over 45, and VERY interested in serious literary controversies, you might want to email *******. Send along a curriculum mortae. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:26:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Sherry Brennan <sab5@PSU.EDU> Subject: space >n Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:00:44 -0400 Jordan Davis said: >>and I want to know what it is people want from this space -- this listserv >>if you're not a spatialist -- I asked when I got here and I'm asking again >>now -- what do you want -- what do you wish would happen here > I just wnat to know that there are other spaces out there, other than this cubicle where I spend my days with my comjputer. I'm not into regulating hwat those other spaces are. Just want to space spacing spaces . xs Sherry Brennan Development Research The Pennsylvania State University (814) 863-4302 SAB5@psu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug rachel rites: > henry wrote: > > > 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest > > Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of > dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of > poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly. > > > Imagine how it looks to a newcomer searching for "poetics". > > Imagine what the neighbors will think. Anyone who comes here looking > for certainties *should* get the chance to be baffled. Didn't I hear > a rumor that this was a list for experiment (or is that only for the > narrowly defined "work")? This place is interesting, IMO, when it's > a source of puzzlement. > > Rachel Loden i rite: for the record; i was telling a colleague/friend about the silliness of our list of late, with the benedetti v. loden/bowering thread and how it blossomed. she was in stitches and wished she had an e-community that was half as fun.--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug the gould rites: I miss some of the intense complicated discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth of in the last few months i don't recall much of this at all; are you referring to, for instance, the plath/sexton/ holocaust type stuff? or stuff about meter? this is an honest question: what constitutes a serious discussion of poetics? what in fact is meant by poetics? i ask this because i had real departmental problems with this one in the past, being in a situation where i thought "poetics" meant something like "the functioning of (talking about) verbal artifacts in a social space" and my powerful senior colleagues thought it meant "prosody." so, on this list, i don't know when i'm being "digressive" and when i'm actually tending to business. and to tell the truth i kind of like not knowing. i think that's the way new knowledge gets generated, when there's advertent or inadvertent slippage between discourses. bests always md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU> Subject: teaching traumas... there isn't a day goes by, it seems, when i'm not faced with resistance from my students to moving discussions in any direction which suitably challenges more orthodox constructions of self or society... in considering just about anything written by foucault, or any poem that is non-narrative, or any social opine that goes against-the-perceived-orthodox-grain, i'm often met immediately, by a certain faction (which latter varies), with resistance if not outright resentment... my strategy has been to try to create a classroom setting from the outset in which students feel they can give voice to their more self-ish or racist or sexist or ? sentiments... i like to talk in class about the way i come to teaching and learning, about how i see my own profession, and i like to get my students to talk about what they think they're going to get out of an education, how they see themselves as students... this latter discussion is not the sole topic of discussion, but it is a recurring topic in each and every one of my classes... one way of getting students to pipe up (which may or may not work, depending on the context---there are no guarantees) is to give voice at times to one's own anxieties, and to get into the habit of questioning, listening, and encouraging students to do as well... i'm not talking about teaching-as-confessional (though i suppose there is an element of this, and of related risk)---i *am* talking about redistributing pedagogical authority so as to decenter the instructional role through openness and willingness to make public one's own methods and frailties, while at the same time raising urgent questions... which may include, in fact, whether a more 'democratic' classroom is desirable... mebbe b/c i'm a white guy i can get away with this more easily, it's true... for example, a woman, viewed in more maternal terms by students, may likewise be viewed as "betraying" her self-defined student-offspring through a denial of authority... i say this only in order to complicate my own pedagogy... i'm not suggesting that instructors should avoid confrontation... i *am* saying---and in my case i teach, these days, a lower-middle-class, technically-oriented student body, with a fair amount of international students (who are not lower-middle-class), and mebbe 20% women---that confrontation of any sort is not going to be all that meaningful unless students (and faculty) are willing to articulate where they're coming from, and why... and that it takes some amount of work to create a classroom in which there's enough trust and commitment to entertain such provocations publicly... mebbe you can get 'into' a 'controversial' text if you can create such a classroom... mebbe such texts can help in that process simply b/c they foreground known anxieties or concerns of one sort or another... mebbe you can get students to see a text as something of (aesthetic, cultural) value (imagine that), as something that speaks to xyz issues in perhaps unsettling ways... but this latter process simply has, as i see it, to take place within a legible pedagogical-educational framework... if you don't discuss the how's and why's of educational motives with your students, you're setting yourself up in their eyes as a demagogue... esp. when you introduce into a classroom a text that is (demographically speaking, now) likely to be viewed as challenging their beliefs... for what it's worth, please pardon my use of second person, i'm talking to myself too// joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:10:02 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US> Organization: The Blake School Subject: student racism Dodie a day or two ago -- it takes me a while to get my messages, slow system -- wrote about her students' seemingly racist response to a Giscombe essay she had them read. Alas, I am not at all surprised. I get this sort of thing all the time. The prep school students I teach -- at least the white ones -- almost all claim not to be racists. And they're right to the extent that they hold no ill feelings toward blacks or other minorities. But they are wrong insofar as racism is institutional: Any time discussion of race turns away from "subjective feeling" and to actual instances of and structures that promote white privelege and minority disenfranchisement, things get ugly. Most whites react irrationally and angrily. The strangest such instance is when some white students claims to be as "victimized" as minorities. (My God, what a sad state of affairs.) The declaration of being a victim has become a rhetorical ploy to establish authority ("You have to listen to me; I've been unjustly hurt.") and these kids do not want it denied them. Once you scratch beneath the surface, the ugliness is extraordinary. & it's not just race; it's class as well. In the prep school I taught in in NY state, some students uncritically referred to lower class whites as "white trash." I said, "let's find a better word." A student replied, "Oh, they're not white trash?" I said, "These people would fall under the category `poor white trash.' But I don't believe we should refer to any human beings as trash, especially not in a classroom." "Wow, I never thought of that." These kids are receiving superb educations. The schools I teach at are full of economically elite students steeped in "multi-cultural" (I hate that word -- too simlistic)social studies and English classes. Does the elitism overrde the multi-cultural indoctrination? Or are these students actually more sensitive to issues of "otherness" than are many less fortunate whites? It all makes me shudder. I wish that I, like Dodie, could be surprised. In NY state I taught some kids ripe for the neo-Nazis. (No, all of the neo-Nazis are not poorly educated, disenfranchised white men. These boys had the world at their feet.) When I began my introduction of Woolf's TO THE LIGHTHOUSE, one of the students asked, "Is she black, too?" He had become sick of reading black authors after a unit on African poetry. The coming generation may be the most racist since before the Civil Rights era. I guess we educators have our work cut out for us. Do we make a difference? What do you non-educators think? Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gary Roberts <GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> Subject: poetry and play I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics are welcome. Thanks, Gary Roberts ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:51:08 -0600 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: status of my 'zine - Happy Genius please pardon the non-poetic, business nature of this post. a few poets on this list have work going in my up-coming 'zine, Happy Genius. Happy Genius is suffering from money problems. this is out-of-pocket. if it is going too slowly for anyone, just write me. i understand. the low-down: Happy Genius is 1. core text only. i like a little crit but there are many 'zines out there for that. 2. Black Mountain and langpo influenced. my taste. 3. paper and web. many people really do judge a book, or 'zine, by the quality of the print job. for some, web-only is not *real*! wouldn't that be a turbulent thread! i hit up some poets whose work i've liked a long time, and, from this list, i received a lot of work that is just about exactly what i wanted to get. unfortunately, i also got work from women on a one to seven ratio! (another thread that would be interesting to pursue.) i then tried to make a concerted effort to attract women; trolling, as it is called on irc. a stupid error happened that is embarassing but should be funny. i wrote a particularly intelligent woman on this list (based on the content of her posts) begging work from her. she isn't a poet. she's a critic. i bet most of you know exactly who i mean! the result of that troll was null. there is still a seven to one ratio of men to women. there is still room for submissions to Happy Genius. in order to use the perfect binding method, at least 96 pages are necessary. i have almost that much now, and could put in one or two of my own longer poems (which are brilliant!), but i would prefer more work. long poems, word play, mental activity, that's what i like. please note that my email address has changed to: landers@frontiernet.net and my snail mail address has changed to: Happy Genius Pete Landers, ed. 34 Rose Circle Hamlin, NY 14464 in other words, if you snail me and don't think "Gertrude", it could be the wrong address. is that obscure? sorry. Stein made the circle of "a rose is a rose is a rose is". rose circle. again, if Happy Genius is going too slowly and i'm holding your poem, get in touch. i'm not Clayton-like*. i'll send my phone # back channel if you want to talk. Pete Landers landers@frontiernet.net * bashing Clayton is fun, but i'm sorry to hear Sulphur is in a bad way with money. with or without the controversies, he and Eliot put some good work out there and they have excellent distribution. maybe it's time he pull a Heyerdahl on those cave painting technix. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:04:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500 from <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:22:16 -0500 maria damon said: >the gould rites: >I miss some of the intense complicated >discussions of poetics per se, which in my view, there's been a dearth >of in the last few months > >i don't recall much of this at all; are you referring to, for instance, the >plath/sexton/ holocaust type stuff? or stuff about meter? this is an honest >question: what constitutes a serious discussion of poetics? what in fact is >meant by poetics? By "poetics per se" I mean "the gab about poetry". But methinks perhaps the Muse hath departed. O woe then I cry, cry I then woe O, For lo, the blab doth feed upon itself And all o'erwhelm propinquity and jest! Yea, unto the legions forthright fortified With regulation, what ho! Dagnab it all! Whew! [from: PROSODY IS ONLY AN ITTY-BITTY PART OF POETICS, by E. Randolph Squirtgunnington; E. Lemon Press, 1946] [Note: Squirtetc. cites the above as an example of latent extenuated devolved anglo-saxon verse prosody, remarking: "note the labial sibilance in the third beat from the top layer (proto-Ugarit sandstone). How moving - and yet, how pathetic." (p.1745)] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:20:04 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jeff Hansen <Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US> Organization: The Blake School Subject: None Maria Damon mentioned in passing that a hot upper midwest political issue concerns the treaty rights of native Americans to fish in certain waters at times when they are off-limit to other groups. She goes on to say that many whites oppose it because it cuts down on the fish they will catch. This is true in part, but the issue is much more complex. Certain small resort owners suffer real economic trouble because of these treaties (which should be enforced -- I'm not arguing against Native American's rights.) And many of these people are not rich: they make a hell of a lot less than a tenured professor or, in my case, a prep school teacher. An extremely slow season resulting from either the real or perceived lack of fish in the lake due to Native fishing can send some of these people out of business. The point here is that, once again, it is lower class whites who pay a disproportionate price for the attempt to redress past racism. This is political suicide: It splits the Leftist and potential Leftist constituency along racial lines. This problem is, I think, the most serious one created by the New Left. Yes, gender and racial politics are necessary. But we need to keep the economic in view. And we need to keep in mind that white people are not all the same, and we need to ask ourselves who we are asking to pay for redressing past racism. 'tain't all equal. A simple 'fuck the whites, they're all priveleged' is escapism and dangerous politics. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:35:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU> Subject: teaching traumas cont'd... and permit me to gloss one facet of my last post one stitch further: one of the greatest difficulties i face is in my tendency to talk too much (surprised? i bet not)... so in order to help turn over the classroom to students (which is what "student-centered" really means), i try to develop a teaching format-structure such that i can at regular intervals get up and WALK OUT... yeah---just walk away... let them talk things out among themselves (or if you have the technology, write things out among themselves), only to re-enter the discussion at a later point... now it helps if you have a long-ish class period... but the point here is that an instructor's input is not required at each and every instant, and that in fact it might help in general to ask class participants (please note the shift in terminology) to delve into a specific issue IN YOUR ABSENCE... i do it all the time, with generally good results... a certain number of participants usually object at first, but they get over themselves once they realize they have much to learn from one another... when i re-enter the discussion, i tend to ask participants to tell me what all they've been discussing, where the major conflicts were (if any), what further speculation/inquiry/even research is possible or necessary, etc... and i try, i try to limit my input and tendency to paraphrase, albeit i've been known to blab some at this point... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: maria damon <damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play In message <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for > recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side > of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other > suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics > are welcome. > Thanks, > Gary Roberts the oulipo people, italo calvino, lewis carroll, ws gilbert, joan retallack, bp nichol, aram saroyan, ... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:32:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Henry <AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU> Subject: po-biz Peter Landers apologized for "business" message about his magazine on the list. I'm sorry if my dimwitted "regulatory" comments were unclear. I'm ALL IN FAVOR of small press business announcements etc. on this list. I just don't think people should hit the reply button & order their individual copies, etc. on-list. Anyway, it ain't up to me - I just wanted to clear that up. (Jordan, you will pay for starting this thread...!!!) - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:17:56 -0600 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: redux is a drug henry wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:54:37 -0700 Rachel Loden said: > >henry wrote: > > > >> 1. Less silly chatter of no "poetics"interest > > > >Interesting the assumptions in this statement. The dry heaves of > >dueling press releases (as in the poets vs. critics thread) are "of > >poetics interest." Pomposity is fascinating. Satire is silly. etc... the poets vs. critics thread almost got me to unlurk. might as well say it now. in my opinion, criticism is useful. it's like religion for the people who want some spirituality but don't want to figure out the core texts for themselves. poems are for people who read poetry and criticism, likewise, is for people who want it. bashing all critics, like bashing all religions, is wasted energy. one might as well hate Carl Sagan for bawdlerizing modern science. might as well hate snow for falling, water for being wet. what do i want from this list? i can say what i don't want. i don't want to put limits to any discussion here. Pete Landers landers@frontiernet.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:59:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Julie Marie Schmid <jschmid@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> Hey Gary-- Hope all is well. Will backchannel you when I have the time. What about anything by Breton or the Surrealists--not about games per se, but writing based on games, role of the dice, etc. It would work well with Cage, I would think. Or what about the Daisy poem that Kerouac & Cassidy wrote together? (I can't remember the title, but know where to find it if you're interested.) Julie On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Gary Roberts wrote: > I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for > recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side > of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other > suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics > are welcome. > Thanks, > Gary Roberts > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Douglas Messerli <djmess@SUNMOON.COM> Subject: new magazine on line I just wanted to let everyone know that the newest issue of WHERE LITERATURE LIVES, No. 2 (September 1996) is now on line at Sun & Moon Press's web-sit (http:// www.sunmoon.com).=20 The newest issue contains work by several upcoming and new Sun & Moon writers (Myung Mi Kim, Charles Bernstein, Ren=E9 Crevel, Thomas Mann, others) and reviews from recent Sun & Moon books as well as "In the News," new information about Sun & Moon writers and events.=20 In future issues, Sun & Moon will publish some reviews of non-Sun & Moon books. If you have a book you'd like to review, please let me know (Douglas Messerli). We look forward to publishing a few other reviews in each of our monthly issues. I hope you'll vising our web-site and enjoy the contents. You're welcome to download material as long as it's for personal usage only. Incidentally, we will be keeping back issues on the site as well. No 1 of WHERE LITERATURE LIVES can still be accessed. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: bitmap addressing <filch@POBOX.COM> Subject: Re: student racism (white trash) I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, & incest. filch >& it's not just race; it's class as well. In the prep school I taught in in NY >state, some students uncritically referred to lower class whites as "white >trash." I said, "let's find a better word." A student replied, "Oh, they're >not white trash?" I said, "These people would fall under the category `poor >white trash.' But I don't believe we should refer to any human beings as >trash, especially not in a classroom." "Wow, I never thought of that." These >kids are receiving superb educations. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:37:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Daniel Bouchard <Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM> Subject: Re: student racism I guess we educators have our work cut out for us. Do we make a difference? What do you non-educators think? ____ In some recent reading a comment was made that the people (mostly white men) with high school educations who feel disenfranchised and believe in "reverse-racism" and are falling into the ranks of those spouting vicious right-wing rhetoric of racial divisiveness and general assaults on poor people, and are likely candidates for the so-called "militias," etc. were, three generations ago the same people forming the rank and file of the CIO. The conclusion (made in the article) was(IS) a disastrous failure on the part of the Left (today), and an organizer's dream still waiting to happen. That's a lot of work. What do people think? And does poetry have a place in it? A: Poetry does have a place in it. Poetry can inform. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <324285FD.6D2A@concentric.net> from "Rachel Loden" at Sep 20, 96 04:54:37 am Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After all, this is America, ain't it? Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:16:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Carl Lynden Peters <clpeters@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: poetry and play In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> from "Gary Roberts" at Sep 20, 96 11:16:10 am gary, bpNichol! lots and lots and lots of bpNichol! -- have you seen the collected performance scores of the _four horsemen_? you can still get this thru karl young. take care, c. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:56:22 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: Re: student racism (white trash) At 9:49 AM 9/20/96, bitmap addressing wrote: >I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the >appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family >line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure >if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would >come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as >far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash >with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, & >incest. > >filch This is Dodie. While I wasn't raised in such an environment, my heritage too is a long line of white trash--my family was upwardly mobile skilled labor. After the depression many of my white trash (though hillbilly was the word of choice in Indiana) relatives migrated from Kentucky to the Calumet Region to get jobs in the mills and in construction. Up there, there was lots a prejudice against anybody with a Southern accent, and I took on that prejudice, and felt appauling shame at my relatives, my millions of bare-footed shitty toe-headed cousins. When I was in high school most of them moved back to Kentucky and onto welfare, and I haven't seen any of them since. I have come to more of an appreciations of my relatives--but my grandfather was in the Ku Klux, and I've heard stories of cousins getting into knife fights with blacks--I would hardly call them harmless. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:38:16 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU> Subject: [hjaffe@mail.sdsu.edu: Call for submissions] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: hjaffe@mail.sdsu.edu (Harold Jaffe) To: au462@cleveland.freenet.edu Subject: Call for submissions Date: Fri, 20 Sep Would it be possible for you to forward the following ad to your lists: Call For Submissions Fiction International will be publishing its second consecutive issue on the subject of Pain. Fiction, non-fiction, hybrid forms and visuals should be sent (with SASE) between 9/1/96 and 12/15/96 to: Harold Jaffe, Editor, Fiction International, English Dept. San Diego State University, San Diego, CA 92182-8140. Please write "Pain" on your envelope. Thanks, Harold Jaffe, Editor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake <au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Robert Drake <au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug hello all, i was asked to line a clamshell box with felt. the box is going to house a volume bound in goatskin. the felt i can get is 100% polyester. i would like to find out whether its use is objectionable and for what reason? thank you gudrun [found 9/19/96] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:50:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" <kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play Gary, Have you read THE PLAY OF THE WORLD by James Hans. No particular poem in it, but an incredible discussion of play that goes well beyond Huizinga's HOMO LUDEN as well as earlier poststructuralism. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU> Subject: 1st Amendment Freedom: Community Vigilantes: N.Y.C. Community Court Carl Peters had an excellent suggestion re poetry & play--The Prose Tattoo by The Four Horsemen, available from Karl Young's Light and Dust. Light and Dust also has cassettes of Paul Dutton, Rafael Barreto-Rivera and bpNichol available, as well as othe bpNichol texts. Look for Light and Dust at Grist On-Line http://www/thing.net/~grist also re poetry and play,(and who gets to play and who not) racism & class war--here is the following From: ARTISTpres@aol.com Subject: Community Vigilantes: N.Y.C. Community Court This Community Wants Its Very Own Kangaroo Court by Robert Lederman On Tuesday night (9/17/96) I attended a meeting of Community Board #2's Community Court Task Force. As the president of A.R.T.I.S.T., an advocacy group for N.Y.C. street artists, my concern is that CB#2 and City Council Member Kathryn Freed will use the proposed Community Court to further harass and persecute street artists in SoHo and the West Village. Having been an artist-defendant a number of times in the 54th Street Community Court, which CB#2 acknowledges as their role model, I wanted to find out just what CB#2 had in mind. The 54th Street Community Court specializes in targeting minorities, the poor, the homeless, disabled veteran vendors and street artists accused of "violating" the community. These "violations" usually involve nothing more than being in the area. It is neither a court of equal justice nor of constitutional law. This "court" functions as a mechanism for business interests and local community "activists" to harass and eliminate so- called "undesirables" whom the police are unable to focus attention on while dealing with legitimate issues of public safety and crime. Alan Gerson is the chair of the CB#2 Community Court Task Force. He took issue with a letter I had written to a local newspaper criticizing the proposed Court as a vehicle for Council Member Freed's particular brand of vigilantism and assured me I'd "...gotten it all wrong". At first, Gerson vigorously denied that Council Member Freed had anything to do with the proposed Community Court. Later he admitted that he was appointed to CB#2 and to the chair of the Committee by Council Member Freed and that numerous other board members were also appointed by Freed. Ms. Freed has built a career on "quality of life" issues and is working with the Fifth Avenue Association, the SoHo Alliance and other real estate interests to eliminate First Amendment protection for visual art as a means of eliminating artists from New York City's streets. Gerson had a large pile of copies of a document he'd written entitled, "Outline For CB#2's Community Court". After much pressuring, he allowed me a brief look at the document and then quickly took it back. The document was later leaked to me by a board member. Like the 54th Street Court on which it is modeled the goal of CB#2's Court is to address so-called "quality of life" violations rather than robberies, rapes or serious criminal offenses. According to Gerson's outline, "Late night hours would be utilized by the police to bring individuals they find engaged in illicit activity to the court for immediate intake." The "illicit activities" would presumably include displaying art, playing a radio, loitering, panhandling, sleeping on the street, distributing handbills, vending or holding an open beer. CB#2's proposed court would not just be a vehicle for police activity. Local residents would be encouraged to identify quality of life violators and bring them before the court. "Community residents...must have standing to initiate 'citizen suits' alleging the violation of the administrative code...[by] signing a petition or [by] the endorsement of the community board." While the initial target of this neighborhood "cleanup" will be "outsiders", the outline acknowledges that, "...most such alleged violations involve accusations among neighbors, including neighboring residents and businesses". In other words, anyone with a petty grudge against his or her neighbor will now have a means of dragging them into court on the pretext of having violated their "life quality". While expressing deep admiration for the 54th Street Court, CB#2 wants to go even further in their practice of "justice" than its role model does. "In criminal violations, the court must be authorized to conduct trials. In that way our court would differ from the Midtown Court which only deals with defendants who plead guilty, and refers other defendants to the regular courts. The CB#2 Court could therefore conduct any necessary trials." In the midtown court defendants who are not successfully coerced into pleading guilty and doing community service are immediately rescheduled for arraignment in Manhattan Criminal Court at 100 Centre Street. Justice will be swift and certain in CB#2's court. "The Court must be set up to conduct intake for persons accused of criminal violations...and would therefore need to include a holding area supervised by Court Officers. The immediacy of intake would send a positive message to defendants and potential defendants using our streets...". Nevertheless, CB#2 does not intend to sentence defendants to actual jail time. "Our Community Court would never impose jail sentences. In addition to imposing fines, the Court would utilize alternative sentencing for persons who plead guilty or are found guilty of criminal violations. The court would retain jurisdiction over the sentenced defendant until he or she completes their sentence. Persons who refuse to complete their sentence, and repeat offenders, would be referred to the regular criminal court system, where jail time remains an option." Alternative sentencing includes cleaning and sweeping CB#2's streets, painting buildings and doing landscaping and maintenance for the "community". Barbara Feldt, a community activist from the 54th Street Court was a guest speaker at the meeting and gave us some idea of just how this "alternative sentencing" works. "My personal interest is in maintaining trees", she explained. "So I call up the 54th Street Court Supervisor and have them send over defendants, who I supervise in maintaining the trees in my neighborhood". When I commented that this sounded a bit like legalized slavery, she became offended and assured me that she had never profited in a personal way from any of the crews assigned to work under her direction. She also described how she and other 54th Street Court "community activists" had obtained the names and addresses of men arrested by undercover cops who pose as prostitutes and solicit passing cars, and had written personal letters to each of their wives. Unlike the 54th Street court, which was built and continues to be financed by the Fifth Avenue and Times Sq. Business Improvement Districts, C.B. #2 believes their court, "...deserves full public financing from the City and State", and proposes, "...an aggressive campaign for grants from the federal government and from foundations...". The grants from foundations would include money from N.Y.U. which could use the court as a, "...wonderful opportunity for collaboration between the criminal justice system and higher education". The trend of developing Community Courts goes hand in hand with the spread of B.I.D.s (Business Improvement Districts). Business and community "leaders" are dissatisfied with the delays caused by bothersome constitutional protections such as the First Amendment, due process and civil rights, and the fact that many judges dismiss quality of life cases because they know the defendants were arrested due to their race or social status. B.I.D.'s and community courts transfer the authority of duly elected government officials and judges to local business leaders who make no pretext of understanding or caring about civil liberties. B.I.D.s and Community Courts are simply advocates for property owners and real estate interests. Protecting the real or imaginary "rights" of property owners is their sole mission. Unlike Manhattan Criminal court, where only 80- 90% of the defendants are minorities, at the 54th Street Community Court virtually 100% of the defendants are African-American or Latino. Most know nothing of their legal rights. Almost all accept a guilty plea and do community service after being coerced into doing so by their court appointed lawyer, a judge answerable to and appointed by the local community and helpful "intake personnel". They are then used by the same "community activists" who had them arrested and by the B.I.D.s as a source of unpaid labor within the community. The more arrests that are made the greater the supply of free labor. Admittedly, this is an ingenious return to the plantation system which helped build this nation in the 17th and 18th centuries. Community Court convict-defendants usually wear orange or other easily identifiable coveralls emblazoned with the courts' logo while working out their sentences in the community. Ms. Feldt calls this forced labor, "...giving something back to the community". Rather than creating jobs or addressing social inequality, this system puts poor people to work as a punishment for being visible in an otherwise middle- class or wealthy community. Community Courts are similar to the vigilante justice practiced by groups like the Klu Klux Klan and can ultimately lead to the kind of police state that existed in Nazi Germany and in the Soviet Union. There, every citizen acted as a police informer reporting the real or imaginary transgressions of foreigners, peddlers, outsiders and eventually, their own neighbors. The motivation is blatantly racist and classist. In the Manhattan D.A.'s words it is, "A bad idea whose time has come". For more information on A.R.T.I.S.T. contact: Robert Lederman, president of A.R.T.I.S.T. (Artists' Response To Illegal State Tactics) (718) 369-2111 E-mail ARTISTpres@aol.com A.R.T.I.S.T. web site [a journalistic resource]: http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html A Selection of Articles on the Street Artist issue...... Daily News 9/8/96 pg. 13, "Law Called Vend- ictive"; Art In America, March 1996 pg. 128 "New Allies for Street Artists"; New York Times, Sunday July 14, 1996, City section pg 1); "The War of Nerves Downtown; Kathryn Freed's War of Nerves" [detailed expose of City Council Member Freed]; N.Y. Times 9/1/96 City Section pg 1; "Is This Man Dangerous? The Portrait Artist in an Age of Zero Tolerance; Inside the Quality of Life Wars"; Christian Science Monitor Wednesday, February 14, 1996 "Conflict On the Street: Artists v. N.Y.C."; New York Times Wednesday, January 24, 1996 Metro section pg. B1 "Street Art: Free Speech or Just Stuff?"; New York Magazine, January 23, 1995 pg 16 "Among the Artlaws"; N.Y. Post 5/26/94 pg. 54, "Throwing the Book at Artist"; Christian Science Monitor Thursday, July 14, 1994 pg. 11 "New York Reins In Street Art"; Time Out Magazine Feb 21-27 1996 pg. 18 "Peddle Pushers"; New York Amsterdam News Saturday, June 15, 1996 pg. 4 "Artists To Sue Over First Amendment Right of Speech". Council Member Freed (212) 788-7722 C.B.#2 (212) 979-2272 Manhattan D.A. (212) 335-9000 --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU> Subject: correction correction: grist On-Line is http://www.thing.net/~grist (typed an / in place of a . previously) also check out Translating Translating Apollinaire by bpNichol et al and Six Fillious (by Robert Filliou, George brecht, Dieter Roth, bpNichol, Steve McCaffery and Dick Higgins) some of this work is on web site Poetry section of Light Dust-- or Art Facts by bpNichol from CHAX (also available from SPD) --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:54:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM> Subject: Re: redux is a drug Mike Boughn writes: >Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After >all, this is America, ain't it? > Exactly how long HAVE you been living in Toronto, Mike? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" <pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM> Subject: Re: student racism (white trash) Comments: To: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Interesting, Dodie. My grandfather was in the KKK, too. Worked the RR out of Knox, Indiana, but hailed from Evansville. In the 1930's, my father was a pool hustler and got into fights with people he called "hillbillies" though I don't imagine he was far removed from them himself. But in South Bend, where I grew up, everyone was Polish or so it seemed. I'm curious about this thread on students & racism as I'm now an undergrad in Humanities at CU-Boulder at the maybe too ripe age of 39. After working in the film industry and the insurance biz, I've decided to become a professor (whatever that may be). So far, I've caught not a whiff of racism among my fellow students. The curriculum in my modern fiction class is fairly canonical, though, so it doesn't encourage people to venture into the kinds of discussions (or whining) that's been described here. In my American Indian Religion class I can sense a strong, but unspoken, split among students: on the one hand, people are filled with an almost pious respect for Native Americans that borders on the sentimental; on the other hand, a sharp sense of condescension arises now and then, as if to say, "Well they were only Indians afterall and we are contemporary Americans, white & affluent." I feel this is largely attributable to the often callous attitude of the young, though I could be wrong. The teacher is Choctaw. Anyway, these reports are none to encouraging... Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ---------- From: Kevin Killian To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: student racism (white trash) Date: Friday, September 20, 1996 1:02PM At 9:49 AM 9/20/96, bitmap addressing wrote: >I must say that i come from a very long line of white trash and carry the >appelation proudly. My wife and i were discussing last night how my family >line is full of people who were too dirt poor to be oppressors. I'm sure >if given the chance my ancestors would have been excellent at it & i would >come from a long line of slaveholders and genocidal poops. But as it is as >far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash >with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, & >incest. > >filch This is Dodie. While I wasn't raised in such an environment, my heritage too is a long line of white trash--my family was upwardly mobile skilled labor. After the depression many of my white trash (though hillbilly was the word of choice in Indiana) relatives migrated from Kentucky to the Calumet Region to get jobs in the mills and in construction. Up there, there was lots a prejudice against anybody with a Southern accent, and I took on that prejudice, and felt appauling shame at my relatives, my millions of bare-footed shitty toe-headed cousins. When I was in high school most of them moved back to Kentucky and onto welfare, and I haven't seen any of them since. I have come to more of an appreciations of my relatives--but my grandfather was in the Ku Klux, and I've heard stories of cousins getting into knife fights with blacks--I would hardly call them harmless. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:50:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: Re: poetry and play The collaborations of John Ashbery and Kenneth Koch " " " Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett The work of Bernadette Mayer " " " Carla Harryman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jordan Davis <jdavis@PANIX.COM> Subject: deluxe drug introductions You know what I liked a lot in the last few months? I liked Gale Nelson's posts about what he liked about Bruce Andrews' work. They were detailed, thoughtful, passionate, etc. On the axis of informing / posturing, those were pretty saturated with information. I don't suppose many of us have the time, now that postseason play is nigh upon us, to compile _pro bono_ remarks that would show some part of some aesthetic arc that although in plain sight very truly goes unnoted. But that sort of lawyering (as in "New Hope") can be very bracing, especially if the inditor takes Gale's cue and avoids special pleading -- sticking to what is there and shying from 'why don't people read this.' I know that _I_ don't read things, don't go see things, don't think about things because those things haven't been mentioned to me (or if they have, and I've looked and not pursued, then not pursuing has been either a matter of taste or one of misunderstanding -- and misunderstanding may possibly be corrected). I guess you can tell from the look of this post that I liked Ira's posts a lot too. Anyway, it's only our time and money that we're spending on this. All the posts are fine and unfinished. I may be looking at a cathode ray tube but I'm not seeing the popular culture or its countercultural mirror either, I'm getting something being otherwise. As a denominator that's enough for me, though I would like the multiple to get going, if you dig. No? No dig? Ay! -- Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: poetry and play >In message <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> UB Poetics discussion >group writes: >> I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for >> recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side >> of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other >> suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics >> are welcome. >> Thanks, >> Gary Roberts > >the oulipo people, italo calvino, lewis carroll, ws gilbert, joan retallack, bp >nichol, aram saroyan, ... I was going to mention most of them, esp I think harry Mathews and Georges Perec. Add Jack Spicer. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:16:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Louis Cabri <lcabri@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96092009081522@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> from "henry" at Sep 20, 96 08:49:14 am henry, it's wattle. -l ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:24:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug >Personally, I'd like to see BIGGER dildoes in more flavours. After >all, this is America, ain't it? > >Mike >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca I knew it! I knew it! Mike B. is a sizist! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: student racism (white trash) > But as it is as >far back as the family has roots we have always been dirt poor white trash >with its accompanying complexes of racism, sexism, abuse, addiction, & >incest. > >filch Boy, when you put it in those terms, you're talking about my mother's family, which once in its life had the good sense to escape the Ozarks and move to Alberta, and then into B.C. mountains, where they sat on fences with long rifles and no shoes. No kidding. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: James Sherry <jsherry@PANIX.COM> Subject: Readings and Readings at The Segue Performance Space - October This is Dan Machlin over at The Segue Foundation. The following are October Readings to be held at The Segue Performance Space, 303 East 8th Street, NY, NY (between Aves. B&C), Buzzer 1R. All events at 7:30 p.m. sharp, Suggested Contribution $3.00 (except OBJECT Mag. Benefit see below) Thursday, October 3 LAURA MORIARTY & MELANIE NEILSON Thursday, October 10 ELENI SIKELIANOS, LAIRD HUNT, CHARLES BORKHUIS Thursday, October 17 LEE ANN BROWN (New video work + writings) JULIE PATTON (Performance Texts) Thursday, October 24 GROUP READINGS FROM THE SEGUE FOUNDATION SMALL-PRESS ARCHIVE (A continuing series - shared texts provided) Group Readings From TUUMBA - Lyn Hejinian's Letterpress Chapbook Series MEN IN AIDA by David Melnick (#47 - Dec. 83) PROPERTY by Carla Harryman (#39 - May 82) BEYOND THE EDGE a double monologue by Doug Hall & Jody Procter of T.R. Uthco (#8 - Mar. 77) PLANE DEBRIS by Stephen Rodefer (#36 - Nov. 81) THE GOSPEL OF CELINE ARNAULD by Clayton Eshleman (#12 - Nov. 77) Sunday, October 27, 3:00 - 6:00 p.m., Suggested Contribution $5.00 OBJECT MAGAZINE BENEFIT READING Featuring Kim Rosenfield, Judith Goldman, Bruce Andrews, Brian Kim Stephans, Stacy Doris, Robert Kocik, Dan Farrell, Joe Elliot, Bill Luoma, Melanie Neilson, Tim Davis, Rob Fitterman, Jeff Hull, Elizabeth Fodaski & many others. Thursday, October 31, Special Holloween Blockbuster Reading SIANNE NGAI, CAMILLE GUTHRIE & JUDITH GOLDMAN - BEYOND OCTOBER - Thursday, November 21 LISA JARNOT, JENNIFER MOXLEY Thursday, December 12 PETER GIZZI, ERICA HUNT & watch for other readings and performance events t.b.a. For more information about this series, the archive or the Performance Space you may e-mail after 9/22 to DMACHLIN@FLOTSAM.COM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:55:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play i'd add judy grahn (for her wordplay) if you don't all think i'm too fuddy duddy for mentioning her... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:05:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: forward from another list - it's your privacy ... (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: LYNN EUBANK <eubank@TWLABM.UNT.EDU> This was sent to me by a reliable source in the AI lab, and I think you should all be aware of this also. Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses, mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information are now available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else to use your identity. You can have your name and information removed from this list by making a telephone request. Call (800)543-6862, select option 4 and then option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may also send a fax to (513) 865-1930, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / P.O. Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to confirm your name has been removed is always a good idea. [Actually, it's option 4, then option 9, and all they tell you is that they need your request in writing (full name and address) sent to the fax or snail mail address listed above] As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special set of operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh (rhymes with "Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and is the person to whom complaints about the service could be directed. He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. According to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 1364. The representative will need your name and social security number to remove you from the list. ----- End of forwarded message from MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab ----- *********************************************** Richard J. Samuels Head, Department of Political Science Director, MIT Japan Program Massachusetts Institute of Technology tel: (617) 253-2449 fax: (617) 258-6164 Dr. Lynn Eubank, Chair Lynn Eubank, PhD Graduate Studies in English Division of Linguistics Department of English Department of English University of North Texas Univ of North Texas Denton, TX 76203 Denton, TX 76203 USA USA englgrad@twlab.unt.edu eubank@jove.acs.unt.edu eubank@twlab.unt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:34:56 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: Re: Nexis Lexis In-Reply-To: <v02130500ae67e0b9d273@[198.147.97.101]> Ooops. Sorry all, just saw the corrections as I plough through my umpty ump messages. Ignore moi, pliss, I will sit in the dark. gab ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:53:35 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play In-Reply-To: <01I9P78WDDWEQQRT6A@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> Tom Leonard is a great poetry player. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:55:40 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <POETICS%96092011270398@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, henry wrote: > By "poetics per se" I mean "the gab about poetry". > But methinks perhaps the Muse hath departed. No, no, it's okay i'm still here. gab ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:58:09 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play In-Reply-To: <199609202255.SAA07206@toast.ai.mit.edu> Hey, no fuddyduddy in judy grahn as far as I know. "Descent to the Roses of the Family" not playful nor gamey, but certainly not fuddyduddy... gab. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest <elliza@AI.MIT.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play ooohhh, "Descent to the Roses of the Family" is new to me -- what is it from? Excitement, a new judy grahn poem! no, i was thinking of the linguistic play of _She Who_... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Steve Shoemaker <shoemakers@COFC.EDU> Subject: reading retallack In-Reply-To: <v01530505ae68aa357ede@[166.84.199.56]> Can anyone recommend useful essays or reviews on Joan Retallack's work, esp. AFTERRIMAGES? Or does anyone have anything to say about it in this space? I'm still trying to find my way in myself, but wld like to help create a good reception when she comes to read here in November. Joan is a friend of mine, but for that reason i'm too embarrassed to ask for help firsthand. Thanks. And btw, i guess this is my first post from Charleston, SC rather than Charlottesville, VA. The new address is shoemakers@cofc.edu for anyone trying to get in touch. Steve Shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:11:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: teaching traumas... This is a follow-up to Joe Amato's 'teaching traumas' post--I too have had similar experiences in both creative weiting and literature classes. The first was several years ago in an Intro Cw (poetry) course in which I tried to use the Before Columbus Foundation anthology. Several of the students liked the chance to see poetries in other forms, spoken forms for example, and dealing with materials they'd been told were not "poetic." But a few students (one in particular) was outraged by the introduction to the book (by Ishmael Reed) and simply could not get past that. He felt the entire book was an example of "reverse racism." I tried speaking with him after class, but without much success. He went to the Department Chair, complained that the text was oppressing him--never mind the irony of him using the very rhetoric he described to me as "whining". . . In another case though, I taught two advanced courses which could have gone the same way. One on Spoken Word Poetry which used, among others, the Aloud anthology; and another Postmodern Poetry course which drew heavily on what I thought were some very challenging and difficult poets. Anyway, the advanced courses were much more successful. I did encouter some resistance in the PM course, not concerning racism but simply due to the strangeness of some of the texts. In these classes, I used a method similar, I think, to Amato's pedagogy--I opened discussion by talking about how I tried to read these texts, both when I first encountered them, and my own lingering uncertainities. The students were not nearly as resistant, I think, when they saw that these were _supposed_ to be challenging texts, that they were _supposed_ to have some very fundamental questions about how to read, etc. Of course, not everyone wants to challenged, not everyone wants these questions asked. And when the discussions got directly political, discussion clearly died down. I haven't tried Amato's technique of walking out, though. Maybe next time . . Dean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 02:19:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM> Subject: 207 207 1 - 1 ------------------------------------------------- 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 ________________________________________________________________ 1 _________________________________________________________________ 1 __________________________________________________________________ 4 ___________________________________________________________________ 7 ____________________________________________________________________ 2 _____________________________________________________________________ 1 1 [...] 1 America H$$v$ng 1 January February March April 1 May June July August 1 September October November December 1 br$ng$ng th$ wh$l$ t$ $ h$lt. Th$ c$$g$l$t$$n s$nks l$$d$d $nt$ th$ 1 $n c$mp$t$t$$n w$th th$ $n$rt d$c$y $f $n$v$rs$l c$p$t$l in America. 1 _h$$v$ng_ $f $ff$ct, r$$t$r$t$$ns $v$r $nd $v$r $g$$n, $ thr$w $f th$ 1 p$rh$ps $cr$ss v$r$$$s n$d$s, n$ d$m$ns$$n$l$ty $t $ll, b$t $ c$rt$$n 1 t$n$$$sly h$$v$s th$ l$n$ $r pl$n$ $r n-d$m$ns$$n$l $bj$ct, st$tt$r$d 1 ; feels he's losing it / the application - 1 - just along for the ride - want to walk into a wall of flesh - or at 1 << much confusion prevails >> ____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:33:06 -0700 Reply-To: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@paul.spu.edu> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Brian Carpenter <bricarp@PAUL.SPU.EDU> Subject: traumatic teaching Howdy-- Speaking as a middleclass whiteguy undergrad just one year out of high school it seems to me that professors and students alike ought to acknowledge that they are prey to the same variables (which have been farily well documented in this thread). Judging from the input in this thread the effects seem quite similar. Adaptation to each others' learning/teaching "styles" is a central matter of course. For my own part, my entire perspective on the classroom dynamic shifted for the better after one of my best high school teachers told me bluntly (after I'd had her classes): "I'm here to learn. Teaching is entirely secondary." Many of the students you find sitting in your classroom (especially those fresh out of HS of course) hold in their minds a degree of perceived teacher-apathy from their high-school experience. This naturally gets carried over and projected onto their professors way too often and in turn is translated into student-apathy. I remember quite well that high-school students will tend to read an exhausted & flustered teacher as an apathetic teacher; likewise will undergrads tend to read the mannerisms of peeved professorship as a sort of You-Are-Here-To-Take-Notes default teachingmethod. When the class deals with texts, things to be actively engaged, this kind of communicative block extracts out a whole lot of potential energy from those students who do in fact give-a-damn about the texts as much as the professor. Way too many of these problems arise out of that common human problem of misreading other peoples' signals. For students who are less engaging out of a more entrenched apathy I have nothing to offer. Such seems the nature of the Beast of Olde whose name is General Education Requirement. As to being 18-22 and knowing everything, thats all the more reason for confrontation not only from the texts but from the professor! In my limited experience, it seems that classroom problems and reactions to texts such as those voiced in this thread are precisely those from which the teacher has more opportunity than usual to wring out a learning experience of particular quality for all involved. A classroomful of faces tepidly staring at you is understandably aggravating and difficult. Sitting amongst a classroomful of tepid stares and faces is also aggravating and difficult. Apathy expands exponentially. Seems to me that profs and students *in tandem* can most likely contain it so long as there's an understanding in the environment that problems that arise regarding content/style/whathaveyou can, ought, and will be dealt with through discussion of demographics (students', prof's, text's) as needed. This is, for the most part, a promoted way of saying "hear hear" to Joe Amato's comments on the matter: > confrontation of any sort is not going to be all that meaningful unless > students (and faculty) are willing to articulate where they're coming > from > it takes some amount of work to create a classroom in which there's > enough trust and commitment to entertain such > provocations publicly... Takes some work indeed. Involving the students in the very process of creating said environment is a quicker, if not altogether more practical way of going about this. And I can think of no better instigator of this process than a text that pokes the reader in the, well.... wherever. Apologies using this space to sound thoughtful sans any practical tips. Digressions happen. Classes start here on Tuesday, so I'll see how well I adapt to my profs and they to me. I trust we'll get along roaring well after a good sniffing. Best, Brian C P.S. As to interest in reading lists, I am completing my first walk (or stroll as it were) through _Ulysses_--a book not to be finished. Thus ends my summer reading list. Bring on the syllabi! """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Carpenter - bricarp@spu.edu "The word for word is word. __________________________________ Each page is a door to everything is permitted." http://paul.spu.edu/~bricarp --William S. Burroughs """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:38:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Michael Boughn <mboughn@CHASS.UTORONTO.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug In-Reply-To: <199609202216.SAA28346@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Louis Cabri" at Sep 20, 96 06:16:17 pm Actually, Herb sent me a recent issue of _Martha Stewart Living_ in which she gives directions for making your own dildo from scratch using old manuscripts on poetics you might have lying around the house. She suggests staying away from manuscripts of theory and criticism as generally they are too soft to make good dildoes. For more info, backchannel Herb or me. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:53:29 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Hank Lazer <HLAZER@AS.UA.EDU> Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: reading retallack Steve-- There's a brief essay on Joan Retallack's work in my OPPOSING POETRIES (vol 2 - "Partial to Error: Joan Retallack's _Errata 5uite_"). I believe that Marjorie Perloff has written on AFTERRIMAGES, but I can't remember where the essay appeared--perhaps Sulfur? Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:41:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU> Subject: Re: teaching traumas... dean, yeah---this is similar to what maria d. and others were saying some time ago... if you bring into a classroom some presumably difficult work, and you point out simply that it's not the sort of work that's supposed to be understood just like that, message-in-a-bottle-style---that it's work that requires a critical engagement, yes, even an unorthodox sense of things poetic, but that *anybody* can actively engage so---why then it's relatively easy to get class participants to begin to talk openly about what they make of the work... but the issue here, as you suggest, turns less on what *you* say about the work than on what *they* say... ergo the need to develop fora in which they're primarily the ones who are doing the saying, in which you offer your guidance/feedback etc. only as part of a larger class effort... in this regard, i've also found online discussion lists useful (if you have the resources on your campus, have your computer folks set up a provisional list for your class)... online lists foster distances and proximities of a different order, depending on the individual... i've found it useful, recently, to put my syllabus up on the web (for a business com course, of all things), and to create link(s) within my syllabus to appropriate web sites (as a start---each person has got to get in the habit of seeking out independently as well)... and as i posted some time ago, i've also required monthly electronic journals, based on the results of web searching and internet experience... naturally there are issues here having to do with class level (grad, undergrad) and major (there are no english majors on my campus)... in a few cases, when a class member really gets into a specific author and generates something provocative, i've even put that person in contact (generally online) with the poet or writer in question... both ron silliman on this list, and michael joyce, have generously responded directly to some of my students... i wish i could use this latter strategy even more frequently, but of course this turns on how much time writers like ron or michael have to help me out with my job!... anyway, just some thoughts... i think the key issue here is to think through the varying qualities of the student body (perhaps, as some have indicated, racist sexist etc. to varying degrees, but also inquisitive supportive etc. too) in terms of *instructional* authority and responsibility---which is to say, again, that we need as instructors to consider our own complicity in these various institutional evils, as brian c. indicates, and how best to 'get at' same given the full-range of educational apparatus we have available to us... when a dozen folks take to exploring in detail even the formal qualities of text, as many of you know, it becomes an exercise in negotiating conflicting values... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM> Subject: Jennifer by Jennifer 2.8 Jennifer I will put a flower on my head And I will get into my bed And I will be dead I will lead me to the slaughter Up from the attic rafter Down to the cleansing water Lost I will never be Nor kissed slavishly Nor sung eternally For I will put a rose upon my face And I will lie down in my lace And I will leave you in this place Not for nothing, calls in winter Birds in summer, called hereafter _______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: teaching traumas... I use email lists for all of my courses--students here are automatically given an email account, although many never bother to access it. I also have set up web pages for all of my courses, with syllabi and resource links (including, for my poetry courses, a link to EPC and so to this very discussion). The problem is how to get the students to use these resources. There are Internet connected computers all over the campus in the computer labs, the dorms have ethernet connections, and dial in access from off campus is free (though that only gives access to email). Any way, looks like we have bigger problems here at GMU. Check out my next post. . . dean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:23:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Classroom (?) trauma I'm forwarding a message that just came through the faculty list here at GMU. This illustrates that the problems of racism, sexism, etc that we've been discussing are not limited to the classroom. >Begin forwarded message >The University Board of Visitors has put a freeze on funding for the >slated gay and lesbian resource center here on campus because, as they >say, homosexuality is illegal in the state of Virginia. This is, of >course, incorrect. Sodomy is illegal (which means, in this state, >anything but the missionary position with your married partner), but >homosexuality is not. The center exists on paper, someone has been >offered the job, etc., but now there's no money for it because of this. >The person that, supposedly, is now in charge of the Board of Visitors' >committee on the issue is EDWIN MEESE, the rabid ex-Attorney General to >Ronald Reagan. No other center on campus has ever had to answer to the >Board of Visitors. More forthcoming on this issue as more info. comes >in, but there is a Pride Alliance meeting on Tuesday, Oct. 1st when this >issue will be discussed, and there is another Board of Visitors meeting >on November 20th where this issue will be discussed. >Please, at this time, just spread the word about this. The Board of >Visitors expects us all to just shut up and take it, so spreading >information is the first step. Tell you students and colleagues. dean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Judy Roitman <roitman@OBERON.MATH.UKANS.EDU> Subject: Re: teaching traumas... Ah, it ain't only in lit/writing classes. When I do the requisite 2 minutes on woman/so-called minorities/other cultures and math in a class for future high school math teachers, inevitably a bunch of students gets violently upset, accusing me of favoring women -- it's even been mentioned to the associate chair. Another bunch tells me they are incredibly grateful... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:48:40 -0600 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: poetry and play Gary Roberts wrote: > > I'm putting together a course on play, games, and lit, and am looking for > recommendations-- I've got fictions and theater covered, but the poetry side > of the experience needs help. Stein and Cage are in the running, but other > suggestions would be appreciated. Silly or serious poems/poets/poetics > are welcome. > Thanks, > Gary Roberts Most replies have recommended reading. Here are some games: Exquisite corpse is always fun to play. Each student writes one line as the poem is passed around the room. There is another game in which people write several of their favorite words then compose a poem from that list. Tami Regula and I have been playing with homophonic translation as a means to discovering the sound of Sappho. After much brain sweat we came up with this line: Aster iceman, i'm fickle insulation for Asteres men amphi kalan selannan See the homophonic translation thread from a few weeks ago. This was fun. We were fascinated by Zukofsky's Catullus. Hope this helps. Pete Landers landers@frontiernet.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:23:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Oren Izenberg <OREN.IZENBERG@JHU.EDU> Subject: Re: poetry and play Comments: To: Pete Landers <landers@FRONTIERNET.NET> In-Reply-To: <32443888.E39@frontiernet.net> Poetry and play: see a terrific book of what is essentially cultural anthropology called *The Singing Game* by Ione and Peter Opie. It documents origins and variants of, cross-cultural influences on, etc. children's games like "London Bridge". ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Joe Amato <amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU> Subject: Re: teaching traumas... dean, so meese is up to his tricks?... geezus... sorry to hear this... yeah, this is not exactly a classroom issue, it speaks to the larger institutional crises in (attacks on) higher ed... which filter into the classroom, to be sure... as to getting classes online and such: one way is simply to *demand* same, assuming all class participants have access (many institutions provide email accounts these days to all students)... i've made this a basic part of the course, and i allow folks the space to complain about it (if they like)... but complaints should at the very least be informed by first-hand experience... this becomes, like reading and writing or calculating, one of the givens of classroom structure... there will be disparities in access, in any case, but even those who resist initially are likely to appreciate the experience in the long haul on pragmatic grounds... a quick check at the beginning of the semester is to insist that each student contact you via email... which is not to say that you won't have persistent problems... the electronic stuff is gonna enjoy the same sorts of absenteeisms as the flesh & blood venues... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:35:10 -1000 Reply-To: Gabrielle Welford <welford@hawaii.edu> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: Judy Grahn In-Reply-To: <199609210330.XAA07396@toast.ai.mit.edu> I'm not sure where "Descent" is published. I was around when she was writing it around 1986 or so, around the same time as the play about Helen was put on in the Bay Area. gab ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:15:11 CDT Reply-To: tmandel@cais.cais.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Tom Mandel <tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM> Subject: reading retallack I don't know what reviews of JR's work have been written, but I think of her work as operating in an area one might dub "play of the world," where play has the sense of play in a joint or fitting and simultaneously the linked meanings of fun and experimentation. Joan Retallack invites the reader to hear inside a response to fact and event that frames them for questioning before they reach one's subjectivity with their constructed or ideological power. At the heart of her work is the freedom of the reader, freedom in an ethical and imaginative sense. To free the reader's imagination of the world, and in her mind (imho) this moves the readre to a deeper sense of the ethic of action and response. The work owes to Cage its openness to just hear the phenomena of language and meaning as happening in and of the silence and noise that are their/our largest context. From a very different set of sources (the Marx brothers I think) comes Retallack's characteristic "read" of language events for their metaphysical humor. Anyway, that's where I begin in my sense of JR's "take" ... but they are just some immediate thoughts. ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:46:29 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Gabrielle Welford <welford@HAWAII.EDU> Subject: e-mail for-ums In-Reply-To: <199609212012.PAA27084@charlie.cns.iit.edu> I'm completely stuck on e-mail conversations as a requirement for my students now. One funny thing is that the students sometimes still haven't learned each other's name to face recognition. But this makes it even easier for them to blab away on e-mail--for instance about how they just can't bring themselves to talk in class, how they hate the reading, and othre things like how they've experienced racism in their own lives. Of course, so many of the students here being non-white is a help on that score. Most students do eventually get on and say something. Others write in several times a week. And this semesterr, I have 3 students on the class list who've stayed on from last semester and wrote in without my suggesting it to introduce themselves. They've volunteered to be kind of peer mentors to the younger folk in my present class. Warms the cockles of me eart. I've had less experience with racism here in Hawaii than on the mainland, and there it was anti-gay prejudice. A bigger problem here is the difficulty of relating to the contexts of, say, British Victoriana, anything that has frozen winter in it... gab ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:20:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Julia Stein <jstein@LAEDU.LALC.K12.CA.US> Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Sep 1996 to 20 Sep 1996 > >____ >Daniel Bouchard said: >In some recent reading a comment was made that the people (mostly white men) >with high school educations who feel disenfranchised and believe in >"reverse-racism" and are falling into the ranks of those spouting vicious >right-wing rhetoric of racial divisiveness and general assaults on poor people, >and are likely candidates for the so-called "militias," etc. were, three >generations ago the same people forming the rank and file of the CIO. The >conclusion (made in the article) was(IS) a disastrous failure on the part of >the Left (today), and an organizer's dream still waiting to happen. > >That's a lot of work. What do people think? And does poetry have a place in it? > >A: Poetry does have a place in it. Poetry can inform. > Yes, it does: Poets and educators can organize poetry readings in solidarity with labor struggles. I organized one in support of the UNITE garment worker union campaign to end sweatshop conditions at Guess Inc. We all read about Kathy Lee Gifford as well as the Thai slaves making clothes in Los Angeles. We know that the clothing industry is largely sweatshop industry. Guess Inc. is one big sweatshop and firing workers who try to organize unions. The State of California did raids of Guess contractors and found out that their clothes are illegally sewn in people's homes, they don't pay minimum wage, they don't pay overtime pay, they falsify recrods. So I figured that this kind of stuff goes on as long as we all do nothing about it. Any kind of poetry can be read in such a reading; the reading helps educate people about Guess Inc. and gets people to boycott Guess. And many poets and critics teach high school and college students--the ones who are targeted by Guess ads. Having a reading against Guess is another way to educate students that there are alternatives to the rampant materialism re clothes since they are bombarded with the ads. And if you really want to strike a blow a Guess, help leaflet a Guess shop in a shopping mall. Yes, poetry does have a place in it. Julia Stein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:51:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: George Bowering <bowering@SFU.CA> Subject: Re: redux is a drug I just found this from p. 91 of the Sun&Moon edition of Gertrude Stein's _Mrs. Reynolds_: "I suppose said he that a dildo could be a lightning conductor." George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:02:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: SPT: Moriarity/Tu Small Press Traffic presents Laura Moriarty Hung Tu Friday, September 27, 7:30 p.m. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, SF $5 Laura Moriarty (who I'm sure needs to introduction to this group) is the author of Symetry (Avec), like roads (Kelsey St.), and Rondeaux (Roof). She is the director of the American Poetry Archives at San Francisco State. Hung Tu has been published in Situation, Mirage, and Tense Present (Incommunicato Press). His chapbook A Great Ravine is forthcoming from Parentheses Press. He's one of the most exciting young poets to come out of the poetry renaissance that's boiling in San Francisco. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:04:41 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Kevin Killian <dbkk@SIRIUS.COM> Subject: SPT: Moriarity/Tu >Laura Moriarty (who I'm sure needs to introduction to this group) That should read: needs NO introduction (and you could put a "whom" in there as well). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU> Subject: citings/sightings (seems like this might tie a few threads together . . . ): I've loafed around the streets sometimes, leaned against a storefront with my hat pushed back and one boot hooked around the other--hell, you've probably seen me if you've ever been out this way--I've stood like that, nice and friendly and stupid, like I wouldn't piss if my pants were on fire. And all the time I'm laughing myself sick inside. Just watching the people . . . "You mean," I said slowly, "do I feel persecuted? Well, as a matter of fact I do, doctor. But I never worry about it. I can't say that it doesn't bother me, but--" "Yes? Yes, Mr. Ford?" "Well, whenever it gets too bad, I just step out and kill a few people. I frig them to death with a barbed wire cob I have. After that I feel fine" . . . . "Stick around," I said. "I'll show you that corncob. Or maybe you can show me something from your collection--those Japanese sex goods you used to flash around. What'd you do with that rubber phallus you had? The one you squirted into that high school kid's face? Didn't you have time to pack it when you jumped the Coast?" . . . "Me, Doc? But I sleep well. I don't have headaches. I'm not worried a bit. The only thing that bothers me is that corncob wearing out." --Jim Thompson, The Killer Inside Me --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:30:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Dean Taciuch <dtaciuch@OSF1.GMU.EDU> Subject: Re: Classroom (?) trauma Some clarifications I've just gotten here: Although Ed Meese certain;ly doesn't favor a gay resource center, he is not on the Committe for Student Affairs (which defunded the resource center). He is on the Board Of Visitors (chair of the Academic Affairs Committee!!). The motion to defund the center passed the entire BOV at something like 12-2. The new President of the University, wearing a "Diversity" button in support of the University's recent "Diversity" activities on campus, said nothing. Yes, there's a big sign as you drive onto campus this week: "Mason Celebrates Diversity." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:50:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Rachel Loden <rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET> Subject: more flavours George Bowering wrote: > > I just found this from p. 91 of the Sun&Moon edition of Gertrude Stein's > _Mrs. Reynolds_: > > "I suppose said he that a dildo could be a lightning conductor." Thomas Nashe (1567-1601) in "The Merry Ballad of Nash his Dildo": My little dildo shall supply your kind. A youth that is as light as leaves in wind: He bendeth not, nor foldeth any deal, But stands as stiff as he were made of steel. But then again in a more Benedettian mode (from "A Litany in Time of Plague"): Adieu, farewell, earth's bliss; This world uncertain is; Fond are life's lustful joys; Death proves them all but toys; I am sick, I must die. Lord, have mercy on us! Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:07:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: cris cheek <cris@SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK> Subject: desire / and the 39 steps lunges towards the bell. duty-led and vanishing before an introduction could be gleened. convention riddled counter cultures replicating market priveleges of the branding mall. surprising how an exit could be so effected as to shame itself by so refusing. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:23:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim@PANIX.COM> Subject: uunames ________________________________________________________________________ All My Uunames empowerment uslitho compuchat convolve commspec duck straylight nha gra falstaff wolfe tml metro-net hope siotech satan fighter candy deli itcnet1 rdb suzys jcainc parousia bwen sdale cliplaw tusrifny ravinomics jupiter lions-wing dcisun mollusk clotho alan neuromancer apteryx essert mel maddog clarchitects clmultimedia londonfischer dongrn netcomsv atari nova powermail tcbdata perun hpi genesis fesny argos yarcomm nams2 perform ramnet njn ubellent warwick jennifer clara echo mydog kc2yu upaya absol cius crayola honey sci goo brann dont waena jmtunix softport thetis sss-gw emc treebranch server galaxy999 sjluucp tiffany salinasgroup amnumsoc strand tminet pubmedia cyb stone cemetery brownstone bottomer wbsg oli uslynx nn teamdnet cyberia trangy chesler wa2oga major prcs lamp comstat orb bicny salty rbsis dolphy wildlife girisuci NYMSYS mtgany midnite eastnet icphost stam10 gbs homer __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:13:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Herb Levy <herb@ESKIMO.COM> Subject: teaching traumas I haven't been following this thread very closely, but a book and magazine that MIGHT be useful in this context is Race Traitor edited by Noel Ignatiev and John Garvey. The book (published by Routledge) draws from the first five or six issues of the magazine. The address for the magazine is P O Box 603, Cambridge, MA 02140. The focus is on the social construction of race, and abolishing, not racism, but the notion of a white race, with lots of first person accounts amidst the polemics. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 15:49:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Jonathan Brannen <jbrannen@INFOLINK.MORRIS.MN.US> Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 20 Sep 1996 to 21 Sep 1996 I'll be in the Seattle area from Oct. 3 through Oct. 9 including forays to Portland and Vancouver. I'd be interested in meeting any subscribers to this list who live in those vacinities. Contact me back-channel <jbrannen@infolink.morris.mn.us>. Jonathan Brannen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> From: Christina Fairbank Chirot <tinac@CSD.UWM.EDU> Subject: New journal (fwd> Gender-related topics on anything involving sound and "avant-garde" would be welcome. ======================================================================= *WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE* International Alliance for Women in Music announces the inauguration of a new publication: *WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE* is a journal of scholarship about women, music, and culture. Drawing on a wide range of disciplines and approaches, the refereed journal seeks to further the understanding of the relationships among gender, music, and culture, with special attention being given to the concerns of women. Submissions of varying length are now being accepted for consideration in the inaugural issue. Expected publication of the first issue is winter, 1997. Author guidelines: Send three copies, two without identifying information and one with, and a disk copy to: Women and Music/IAWM Department of Music B-144 Academic Center The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 All submissions undergo a blind review process. For further information, call the IAWM office at 202-994-6338, or send a FAX 202-994-9038, or an e-mail message to: Catherine Pickar at <cpickar@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>. *WOMEN AND MUSIC: A JOURNAL OF GENDER AND CULTURE* will be available to IAWM members as part of the current dues structure and to non-IAWM members for a fee. Editorial Board Members: Patricia Adkins-Chiti Karen Ahlquist, Reviews Editor Jane Bowers Rae Linda Brown Marcia Citron Susan C. Cook Suzanne Cusick Joke Dame Linda Dusman Annegret Fauser Sophie Fuller Eve Meyer, ex-officio Lydia Hamessley Ellie M. Hisama Freia Hoffman Jeffrey Kallberg Ellen Koskoff Fred E. Maus Susan McClary Helen Metzelaar Pirkko Moisala Margaret Myers Jann Pasler Karen Pegley Catherine J. Pickar, Editor Eva Rieger Julie Anne Sadie Catherine Parsons Smith Ruth A. Solie Judy Tsou Riita Valkeila Amy Wajda, Editorial Assistant Catherine J. Pickar Associate Professor of Music The George Washington University Washington, DC, 20052 Phone: 202-994-6338 FAX: 202-994-9038 --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu ---