========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location In-Reply-To: <35EB4610.6F247184@naropa.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Laura E. Wright wrote: > This takes us back to location: the internet as location rather than > activity/passivity. Where are we when we are here? I think Alan > Sondheim's work is situated somewhat in this "site." It's a pretty new > "place" and that may be what makes his work difficult to many of us? > > Nothing wrong with depression, either, > Laura > I've been writing about the concept of handshaking, which I've taken from a book by Robin Milner, Communication and Concurrency, on parallel pro- cessing models, and in it he defines a storage register as a process instead of an entity - as operations/flows and transformations. I tend to think of the Net in the same manner, not so much a site or location as interpenetrating processes and protocols often loosely connected, and related as well in what is called a "nearly decomposable hierarchy" - in other words, one can write in a unix editor without worrying about the operations of the kernel, or write online in Pine without worrying about the underlying TCP/IP protocols. Even defining the Net, say, as an accumulation of accessible locations (addresses and URLs) becomes problematic; there are hidden sites that hackers use, sites that are only present when the user chooses to make them so (in both Win95 and linux I have "private" Webpages that I can present as a server when I'm online), sites behind firewalls, sites that no longer exist, sites that are connected to other networks that may or may not be connected to the Net, dynamic IP allocation which in a sense creates sites on the fly, and so forth. There is also disagreement con- concerning who is or is not online - the definitions vary. Approaching this through postmodernist theory helps a great deal, as do feminisms emphasizing writing on the body, flows, inhabitation. And all of this really does revolve around the body - the body of the text, the body of the avatar, sexualizations and desires within and without both, problems of communication, noise, parasites... Btw, I think a _lot_ can be wrong with depression, but what some people are now calling IAD, internet addiction disorder, has other causes - the Net is a symptom or byproduct in a lot of cases. On the other hand, when teaching Internet, one finds that students are often disappointed that the Net is simpler, is relatively harsh, is far too interactive, involves too much information and too many parameters, etc. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 23:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depression does tend to come upon the more intelligent of the people (they may see life as it is in some sense). The study in questiion would then mean that people learned from their on-line experiences, no? but your poinnt aboout this as a new "place" is intriguing - there tends to be no positive feedback. When I write something as remarkably perceptive as this, I have to stop expecting to receive 800 "bravos" or I will get depressed? tom bell Laura E. Wright wrote: > > This takes us back to location: the internet as location rather than > activity/passivity. Where are we when we are here? I think Alan Sondheim's work > is situated somewhat in this "site." It's a pretty new "place" and that may be > what makes his work difficult to many of us? > > Nothing wrong with depression, either, > Laura > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > > As a veteran reader of social science research I'm always a little > > sceptical, and only a reading of the protocols for the study would answer > > my specific concerns. A favorite of mine was a study that purported to find > > that epileptics are stranger than other people even between seizures. The > > researcher suggested in his conclusion that there might be undetected > > brain-wave abnormalities present. Of course, despite the well-known side > > effects of most anti-spasmodics he didn't differentiate in his tiny sample > > between those on medication and those not. Nor did he take into account the > > impact of the stress caused by the expectation of seizures or the prejudice > > against people who sometimes demonstrate showy symptoms in public. > > Then there's the one I'm sure everyone on the list remembers that purported > > to demonstrate that if you went to the writing program at Iowa you were in > > danger of becoming manic-depressive, or the recent one that claimed that > > younger siblings are more likely to be revolutionaries than the eldest child. > > Here, it would be nice to know how depression was diagnosed, how the > > control group was constituted, and if, perhaps, more depressed people with > > fewer social ties were more likely to resort to the internet. In other > > words, did the internet make them depressed or did depression make them log > > on? Kind of like asking if coughing causes TB or the other way around. But > > Professor Kraut probably got tenure for this one. > > > > At 07:36 PM 8/31/98 -0400, you wrote: > > >In regard to the often cloying obligato about "web communities," > > >e-communities etc etc, the AP proffers teh following: > > > > > >"The more hours people spend on the Internet, the more depressed, stressed > > >and lonely they feel, according to a groundbreaking study that surprised > > >its authors. > > > > > >Internet use had the same effect even for people who spent most of their > > >time in such social activiites as chat rooms or exchanging e-mail, said > > >the study headed by Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at > > >Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. > > > > > >Sociable users end up feeling just as isolated as users who spent more > > >time crawling the Web for information, Kraut said Sunday. > > > > > >One reason for the negative effect might have been that using the Internet > > >left less time for the deeper relationships of friends and family, Kraut > > >suggested. > > > > > >'People are substituting weaker social ties for stronger ones,' he said. > > >'They're substituting conversations on narrower topics with strangers for > > >conversations with people who are connected to their life.' > > > > > >It was the first study to examine the emotional impact of people's > > >Internet use over time, Kraut said. > > > > > >The findings contradicted the researchers' expectations." > > > > > > > > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * > "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:50:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Northwest Vizpo MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII plane _______________CG?_________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ plane _______________CG!_________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ plane ______________*cg*__________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ........plane ____________________________$$c$g$$$$$$$$$ plane _______________CG?_________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ plane __(truck)____GC!___________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ __________{*+*}____________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ cg CG...___ &&&&&&&___________$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, when people whisper 'metonymic desire' in my ear, what I see is the middle-aged tow-truck driver in my town who got caught collecting ladies underwear in his tool cabinet. GT >How would this be different from Freudian association? > > >> >> >>Metonymic, as Lacan used it in relation to desire, could mean 'serial'. >>Lacan proposed that desire proliferated in "metonymic chains", series of >>objects related contiguously rather than essentially. >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:35:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Ascetic aesthetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here is a quote from Adorno that typifies the sort of mentality I was talking about. He makes the Kant connection himself, only Kant didn't go far enough in his view: "The precondition for the autonomy of artistic experience is the abandonment of the attitude of tasting and savouring. The trajectory leading to aesthetic autonomy passes through the stage of disinterestedness; and well it should, for it was during this stage that art emancipated itself from cuisine and pornography, an emancipation that has become irrevocable. However, art does not come to rest in disinterestedness. It moves on. And in so doing it reproduces, in different form, the interest inherent in disinterestedness. In a false world all_ hedone_ is false. This goes for artistic pleasure, too. Art renounces happiness for the sake of happiness, thus enabling desire to survive in art." Contrast this with Bourdieu's critique of Kant in "A Vulgar Critique of Pure Aesthetics" in _Distinctions_ and O'Hara's "Too many poets act like a middle-aged mother trying to get her kids to eat too much cooked meat... I don't give a damn whether they eat or not..." As I understand it, Lacan's metaphor and metonymy correspond to Freud's condensation and displacement. Lacan maps Jakobson's bi-polar terms onto Freud's analysis of dream symbolism. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:50:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Cheering Thought In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980831170154.0094a180@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >As a veteran reader of social science research I'm always a little >sceptical, and only a reading of the protocols for the study would answer >my specific concerns. A favorite of mine was a study that purported to find >that epileptics are stranger than other people even between seizures. The >researcher suggested in his conclusion that there might be undetected >brain-wave abnormalities present. Of course, despite the well-known side >effects of most anti-spasmodics he didn't differentiate in his tiny sample >between those on medication and those not. Nor did he take into account the >impact of the stress caused by the expectation of seizures or the prejudice >against people who sometimes demonstrate showy symptoms in public. >Then there's the one I'm sure everyone on the list remembers that purported >to demonstrate that if you went to the writing program at Iowa you were in >danger of becoming manic-depressive, or the recent one that claimed that >younger siblings are more likely to be revolutionaries than the eldest child. >Here, it would be nice to know how depression was diagnosed, how the >control group was constituted, and if, perhaps, more depressed people with >fewer social ties were more likely to resort to the internet. In other >words, did the internet make them depressed or did depression make them log >on? Kind of like asking if coughing causes TB or the other way around. But >Professor Kraut probably got tenure for this one. > The report I read indicated that depressed people were less likely to resort to the internet. Depression was measured by self-descriptive suvey questions. Not defending the study, just saying it avoided the obvious traps. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:02:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >and in it he defines a storage register as a process >instead of an entity... >Alan We are all processes instead of entities. Cheers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:58:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: Re: Ascetic aesthetics In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:35:16 -0500 from On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:35:16 -0500 MAYHEW said: >Here is a quote from Adorno that typifies the sort of mentality I was >talking about. He makes the Kant connection himself, only Kant didn't go >far enough in his view: > >"The precondition for the autonomy of artistic experience is the >abandonment of the attitude of tasting and savouring. The trajectory >leading to aesthetic autonomy passes through the stage of >disinterestedness; and well it should, for it was during this stage that >art emancipated itself from cuisine and pornography, an emancipation that >has become irrevocable. However, art does not come to rest in >disinterestedness. It moves on. And in so doing it reproduces, in >different form, the interest inherent in disinterestedness. In a false >world all_ hedone_ is false. This goes for artistic pleasure, too. Art >renounces happiness for the sake of happiness, thus enabling desire to >survive in art." I'm not well-read in art philosophy but I always liked Aristotle's framework of ethos/pathos/logos - or values/emotion/reason - being fused in poetry. Seems to me art doesn't renounce anything - it just contains MORE of these elements than entertainment ("cuisine & pornography" in Adorno's pretentious phrase) does. The "precondition for artistic autonomy" is simply the artist's consciousness of his or her power to MAKE free art in the first place : rather than conforming to a particular imitation of an imitation or an audience's expectations. - Henry G ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:57:58 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, George Thompson wrote: or the 'serial' killer > Well, when people whisper 'metonymic desire' in my ear, what I see is the > middle-aged tow-truck driver in my town who got caught collecting ladies > underwear in his tool cabinet. > > >How would this be different from Freudian association? > > > >>Metonymic, as Lacan used it in relation to desire, could mean 'serial'. > >>Lacan proposed that desire proliferated in "metonymic chains", series of > >>objects related contiguously rather than essentially. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:07:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: location location dislocation... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey folks, back in chicago after a rejuvenating journey west... did some nice hiking in utah/idaho/wyoming/colorado/south dakota, and managed to connect with several on this list... was a great month away, in all... i'm skeptical of all "net causes depression" claims, not b/c the net doesn't "cause" depression, but b/c i can't help but wonder what the implications might be for other media (tv, radio, etc.), and what the significance of the study might be in the context of these other media, esp. with even a minor nod in the direction of the development of these other media... i would think, that is, that it would be nigh impossible to bracket internet time as a thing-in-itself... and that constructing such research around the issue of whether the net "causes" depression or happiness (?) or just complacency might already be a bit overdetermined... but then i'd hate to sound as though all such attempts at social science research are of necessity w/o value... it's good to keep in mind, though, that the phenomenon under investigation is, let's see, about five years old in terms of a wide demographic (in the u.s.)... in any case what prompts me to post---as to the question of place: i don't believe it's resolved by imagining (or positing) the body as an event (i.e., in time) marked by its flows, say... even if i do agree (with alan, judy, others) that it's beneficial to think of the human, of life as a process... still, seems to me there's something distinctively... urban? at work in rendering place in such dynamically human terms, and i find it interesting that the more pastoral implications of the internet (as i read them) may be complemented (if i may) by theorizing its permeability, it's multilayeredness (ugh) as such... i say so in part b/c the constructedness of the world hits me over the head each time i come *back to* the big city (and i have a sort of spiritual connection, btw, with the hills of upstate ny---the east, i mean)... and each time i venture forth into nature (a different order of constructedness, let's say), i'm struck by the differences between or among enabling fictions/myths, locale to locale... i must admit to being less impressed (upon?!) by the flatland i've found mself caught in lo these last eight years... and i suppose, to leap ahead a bit, one could look at it all in terms of geology (as some postmodern thinkers have), and then look at geology too as a (historical) process in which the living itself is implicated (i.e., categorically)... but i'm also interested---check that, preoccupied with---this question of where i'd like to throw down some roots (i use the latter to provoke, sorry)... lots and lots and lots more has been written on landscape, and i don't certainly wish to simplify the issue any... but for me, spending time in front of the terminal has in fact *enhanced* my appreciation of the differences and similarities at work among urban, suburban, pastoral "locations," (note those quotes!), between east and west, between your home or hemisphere or mainframe and mine... and i find in fact that a sixty-mile drive through the desolate grazing land on rt. 40 west of steamboat springs ("no gas for 60 miles") rather throws into relief the nature [wink] of "community" too---how it varies, and how folks come to it differently on the basis of where they hang their hats (ok so you may not wear a hat)... interesting that dinosaur national monument is located at the edge of those grazing lands i mention... a nexus of sorts between the prehistoric and the institutional, and an appropriately severe environment... i am, btw, beginning to view kent's and david's "bad language" exchange as accommodating the generally tacit nexus between the grammatical and the postcolonial... which various matters i suppose speak a bit to that other thread too---the one about how community is a constructive way of approaching the creative process, about the need to interrogate different ways of coming to our public, poetic selves... true enough, and community is a really nice concept in getting my students to begin to cope with the hard work of relating their work to others... and yet there are genres (one i'm interested in at the moment---screenwriting), which by their very nature [wink] would seem to make their appeal to the popular somewhat more legible (i might also have mentioned books intended---outright intended---for the trades)... which is to say that there is good, even great popular work out there, and that it sometimes gets there by nodding from the get-go in the direction of the popular---much as this is a generally lamented feature of works with more mass appeal (not to conflate "mass" with "popular," mind you)... which suggests that the burden of thinking through popular screenwriting, just for example, as a generic activity enmeshed in considerations of community and career (etc.) is a somewhat different one than thinking through the poetic variant (and if i haven't lost sight that this site [wink[ is ostensibly devoted to the latter, nor have i failed to consider that the "burden" i note is sometimes completely ignored by writers who achieve a measure of popular success---surely an economic issue in part)... i suppose you can take this all to mean that at times i really long for a wider audience... that at times i really long to entertain that wider audience... that i generally have a hankering for my eggplant livia, but that sometimes a good cheeseburger hits the spot, yes? (rhetorical question addressed to a wider audience---and please to correlate my occasional yen for ground beef with that vast grazing land, above, and please to interpret my desire for a wider audience as a quasi-utopian suggestion that making money might actually result in some public good)... well so, anyway... just some rambling thoughts... good to be back, to see all of your voices/// best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:23:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: Trevor Joyce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A while ago, I saw information posted about Trevor Joyce & his new book. Whoever posted that, could you backchannel the info to me? I'd much appreciate it. Thanks, Marcella Durand ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:32:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I work for a company that tries to build these online community "places". We were all fairly surprised at the results, too. In fact, we even have a community for people w/ Depression. I'm always struggling with whether we're helping people or enabling them to ignore their "real" life. And, in many ways, I see this struggle in the same way I see the difference between _hearing_ poetry and _reading_ poetry. I bet if someone did a study around the affects of reading, it would show that the more people read, the more depressed they'll become. But, what is this place? Even here, on the POETICS list. My place here is my mail program, the specific folder in which all the POETICS email gets filtered into, all these little voices speaking out at me. Sometimes I'm amazed that I can spend my whole work day sitting in front of my computer doing my work and never once having any real-world connection with somebody in the office. It's strange that we can create a "place" out of our interactions with a monitor and keyboard. It's strange that we can create a "place" out of paper and ink. When is it the individual who creates the space, and when is it a true community space, created collectively? --trace-- P.S. If you're interested in my company's web communities, check us out at . Our Depression community has their own "Creative Outlet" message board where they post their poetry... Yesterday afternoon, Laura wrote: >This takes us back to location: the internet as location rather than >activity/passivity. Where are we when we are here? I think Alan Sondheim's work >is situated somewhat in this "site." It's a pretty new "place" and that may be >what makes his work difficult to many of us? > >Nothing wrong with depression, either, >Laura > >Mark Weiss wrote: > >> As a veteran reader of social science research I'm always a little >> sceptical, and only a reading of the protocols for the study would answer >> my specific concerns. A favorite of mine was a study that purported to find >> that epileptics are stranger than other people even between seizures. The >> researcher suggested in his conclusion that there might be undetected >> brain-wave abnormalities present. Of course, despite the well-known side >> effects of most anti-spasmodics he didn't differentiate in his tiny sample >> between those on medication and those not. Nor did he take into account the >> impact of the stress caused by the expectation of seizures or the prejudice >> against people who sometimes demonstrate showy symptoms in public. >> Then there's the one I'm sure everyone on the list remembers that purported >> to demonstrate that if you went to the writing program at Iowa you were in >> danger of becoming manic-depressive, or the recent one that claimed that >> younger siblings are more likely to be revolutionaries than the eldest child. >> Here, it would be nice to know how depression was diagnosed, how the >> control group was constituted, and if, perhaps, more depressed people with >> fewer social ties were more likely to resort to the internet. In other >> words, did the internet make them depressed or did depression make them log >> on? Kind of like asking if coughing causes TB or the other way around. But >> Professor Kraut probably got tenure for this one. >> >> At 07:36 PM 8/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >In regard to the often cloying obligato about "web communities," >> >e-communities etc etc, the AP proffers teh following: >> > >> >"The more hours people spend on the Internet, the more depressed, stressed >> >and lonely they feel, according to a groundbreaking study that surprised >> >its authors. >> > >> >Internet use had the same effect even for people who spent most of their >> >time in such social activiites as chat rooms or exchanging e-mail, said >> >the study headed by Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at >> >Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. >> > >> >Sociable users end up feeling just as isolated as users who spent more >> >time crawling the Web for information, Kraut said Sunday. >> > >> >One reason for the negative effect might have been that using the Internet >> >left less time for the deeper relationships of friends and family, Kraut >> >suggested. >> > >> >'People are substituting weaker social ties for stronger ones,' he said. >> >'They're substituting conversations on narrower topics with strangers for >> >conversations with people who are connected to their life.' >> > >> >It was the first study to examine the emotional impact of people's >> >Internet use over time, Kraut said. >> > >> >The findings contradicted the researchers' expectations." >> > >> > > > > >-- >Laura Wright >Library Assistant >Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >2130 Arapahoe Ave >Boulder, CO 80302 >(303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * >"All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * >"It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: poetic careerism Comments: To: AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU writes: >Making poetry is always an address to an audience, a conversation - at the >same time it is a process of the individual separating out from group >ways of responding & cliches - at the same time it is a response to the >models & heroes of tradition. So it is action at a distance in the >quantum >sense as well as a present, contemporary predicament. This DOES seem >like an impossible, contradictory situation, until you remember that >the reason people start making art in the 1st place is that it seems >a process of tapping into a living energy - a vitality that makes the >distinctions of past & present, near & distant, seem less absolute. >There is this uncanny aspect of revitalizing dead voices & past or >distant traditions - the model is resurrection - everything brought >into the present in some way - the present of the poem... > >so tendencies leaning toward pure careerism or pure technique or >pure antiquarianism seem more like weaknesses than strengths in the >long run - My only response is that this rings true all the way down the line. One might quibble about the word "pure" - but basically careerism, concern with technical aspects, antiquarianism, academicism, don't seem like weaknesses if the end product justifies their presence in the artist's life, if they have provided fuel for the production of his oeuvre. Nor do their opposites. Often what seem to be weaknesses when the poet is messily alive become strengths once he's safely dead, alive and dead being variable terms. Borges was probably being overly dismissive of "careerism" (and only looking at one small slice of the big picture) when he sneeringly dismissed Lorca as being nothing but "a professional Andalusian." dwm "And as I was quite close to her my nails got caught in the front of her dress." - Henri Alain-Fournier. The Wanderer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:13:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shana Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, tracy s. ruggles wrote: > I work for a company that tries to build these online community > "places". We were all fairly surprised at the results, too. In fact, > we even have a community for people w/ Depression. I'm always > struggling with whether we're helping people or enabling them to ignore > their "real" life. It seems to me that the more we attach ourselves to inanimate objects that give us the ability to create places, a defintion of "real life" becomes more complex. You say that creating a place with ink and paper is strange. Why? There are so many ways to create places--poetics is a place, we've discerned that. A place is created when my friend in Ketchum, ID and I write letters to each other pretty stationery. People who call phone sex/phone chat lines create places (for just $2.99/minute, but...). The cool thing about creating a place on paper through correspondence is that there is much more room for all sorts of tangents; but email is cool, too, because it preserves the continuity of discussion. I don't really know if it is up to us to judge which place is more "real"--I can't help but do it anyway. Your face-to-face interactions are only as real as you make them, I suppose, and maybe that goes for other forms of interaction as well. > > I bet if someone did a study around the affects of reading, it would > show that the more people read, the more depressed they'll become. Seriously? Because they've created a place with x author and y subject rather than "real" people? Vladimir Rasputin (no, not *that* one) has a book of short stories, it's called _Siberia on Fire_, and his parents seem more "real" to me than my 70% of my colleagues. Don't you get more depressed when you're surrounded by people who are boring? Oh, yes, hi there. I'm Shana Skaletsky. I hate these introductions because I don't know what to say, and I didn't want to post anything here until I felt I had something to say, and I just don't even know if I have anything to say for myself now. I'm going to just go back to reading the posts until my antennae are tweaked again. shana ses9164@is.nyu.edu http://pages.nyu.edu/~ses9164 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:37:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location Comments: To: sondheim@PANIX.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hope I've got the right thread. Was there a control group of people spending an equal amount of time in front of a computer screen but not on the Internet? Perhaps the incidence of depression wasn't a factor of the Internet as much as of the electromagntic emanations from the screen. After an hour or so on the computer I get a headache, whether I'm on the Net or not, and that can be a bit depressing. It's also depressing to consider what the long-term effects might turn out to be! dwm "'I am not a woman! Don't you understand? I am not a woman!' Jaromil kept shouting after him." - Milan Kundera, Life Is Elsewhere. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:53:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: forward: Zero City Vol. 2 No. 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" & in re recent threads on sticking close to one's community, geographic or virtual... glad to see this exsample of trancesending bounds, ie sheila murphy's continued prescence in many places... i fr one am encouraged by such, as a balance to slews ov mags w/ closely matched casts ov the "ususal suspects"... round 'em up, or round 'em out? lbd > > >Zero City >Volume 2 Number 2 > >http://www.cruzio.com/~zerocity/ > >Mack Dennis >Mark Hartenbach >Alan Kaufman >Paul David Mena >Sheila Murphy >Bill Shields >Ken Siegman >Gabriele Strohschen >Robert Sward >Garland Thompson >Jim Valvis >Jim Watson-Gove > >Broadside: >A tribute to Donald Rawley > >Small Press Bulletin Board > >Links > >More stuff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:15:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David: Get a filter screen. $40, helps a lot. The only way I can imagine to do the study that would make sense would be to assess the mental state of a large pool of non-internet users, large enough to cancel out demographic factors, and to check back periodically as some of them for their own reasons begin to use the internet. The control group would be those who don't, the study groups would be those who use the internet for different amounts of time daily. By checking back periodically the evolution in the mental state of different user-groups, and the changes in the population of those groups, could be quantified. If the group were large enough even the deficiencies of the testing protocol would be cancelled out. But the subject population, for the study to be at all meaningful (i.e, to cancel out the other possible demographic factors in each sub-group), would have to be enormous. Hard to know who would fund such a study. At 12:37 PM 9/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hope I've got the right thread. >Was there a control group of people spending an equal amount of time in >front of a computer screen but not on the Internet? Perhaps the incidence >of depression wasn't a factor of the Internet as much as of the >electromagntic emanations from the screen. After an hour or so on the >computer I get a headache, whether I'm on the Net or not, and that can be >a bit depressing. It's also depressing to consider what the long-term >effects might turn out to be! >dwm >"'I am not a woman! Don't you understand? I am not a woman!' Jaromil kept >shouting after him." >- Milan Kundera, Life Is Elsewhere. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:17:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: sprained attention in "closely matched casts" Comments: To: "r.drake" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i sometimes feel a mite depressed at the "filters" folks seem to use, on the poetix list. my main set of arguments were about attacking/critiquing commodification..The main pt. re spicer, in fact, was to draw a much broader analogical argument out of his (admittedly limited and kooky) set of ideas about how to build poetry community.... quite a few people have picked up on the idea of narrowness and in-groupness, thus neatly reversing the meaning i intended; my fault no doubt,...but i recommend a second look at the post... mark "huffy" prejsnar On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, r.drake wrote: > & in re recent threads on sticking close to one's > community, geographic or virtual... glad to see > this exsample of trancesending bounds, ie sheila > murphy's continued prescence in many places... > i fr one am encouraged by such, as a balance > to slews ov mags w/ closely matched casts ov > the "ususal suspects"... round 'em up, or round > 'em out? > > lbd > > > > > > > >Zero City > >Volume 2 Number 2 > > > >http://www.cruzio.com/~zerocity/ > > > >Mack Dennis > >Mark Hartenbach > >Alan Kaufman > >Paul David Mena > >Sheila Murphy > >Bill Shields > >Ken Siegman > >Gabriele Strohschen > >Robert Sward > >Garland Thompson > >Jim Valvis > >Jim Watson-Gove > > > >Broadside: > >A tribute to Donald Rawley > > > >Small Press Bulletin Board > > > >Links > > > >More stuff > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >I heard that Penguin was going to do a Whalen collected. Does anyone >know if there is any truth to this rumor? > >Burt Hatlen I've been made to understand that a Whalen selected will be published by Penguin, tho' I don't know exactly when, likely in the next year or two. Is truth. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: Re: Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >>I heard that Penguin was going to do a Whalen collected. Does anyone >>know if there is any truth to this rumor? >> >>Burt Hatlen > >I've been made to understand that a Whalen selected will be published by >Penguin, tho' I don't know exactly when, likely in the next year or two. >Is truth. whoops, I should add that this is Anselm Berrigan speaking, apologies for secrecy. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 11:28:14 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Arshile Tenth Issue Benefit Readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Arshile is pleased to announce that it will be celebrating the publication of its Tenth Issue with two benefit readings. The locations and participants for each event are as follows: Arshile Benefit Reading at Beyond Baroque Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center 681 Venice Blvd. Venice, California Friday, October 30, 1998, 7:00 p.m. Participants: Sam Eisenstein Carrie Etter Kate Gale Forrest Gander Barbara Guest Linda Healey John Laskey Lewis MacAdams Stefanie Marlis William Marsh Martha Ronk Hubert Selby, Jr. Judith Taylor Tony Towle Paul Vangelisti Scott Wannberg Arshile Benefit Reading at New College of California to be held in the Theater at New College 777 Valencia Street (at 19th Street) San Francisco, California Friday, November 13, 1998, 7:00 p.m. Participants: Nina Glaser Barbara Guest Jack Hirschman Kevin Killian John Laskey Stefanie Marlis Mark McManus Laura Moriarty Carl Rakosi Jocelyn Saidenberg Aaron Shurin We will be asking a five dollars donation for each of these events, but ten dollars will buy both an admission and a copy of our Tenth Issue (retail price: $7.99). Hope you will join us. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 14:36:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: computer haiku Comments: To: poetryetc@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *something humorous from a friend that forwards all sorts of material to various friends who works for the us government* out... peter ganick ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Imagine if, instead of incomprehensible text strings, your computer produced error messages in Haiku.... First snow, then silence. This thousand dollar screen dies so beautifully. With searching comes loss and the presence of absence: "My novel" not found. A file that big? It might be very useful. But now it is gone. The Web site you seek cannot be located. But endless others exist. Chaos reigns within Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. Aborted effort. Close all that you have. You ask far too much. The Tao that is seen is not the true Tao, until You bring fresh toner. Windows NT crashed. I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams. Stay the patient course. Of little worth is your ire. The network is down. A crash reduces your expensive computer to a simple stone. Yesterday it worked. Today it is not working. Windows is like that. Three things are certain: Death, taxes, and lost data. Guess which has occurred. You step in the stream, but the water has moved on. This page is not here. Out of memory. We wish to hold the whole sky, But we never will. Having been erased, The document you're seeking Must now be retyped. Rather than a beep, Or a rude error message, Only these words: "File not found." Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen. Mind. Both are blank. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:33:08 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Looking For Michael Anania MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone with contact information (e-mail, telephone, street address) for Michael Anania in Chicago, please backchannel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Khartoum is a location too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am now knowing you lengthily enough, Mr. Kent, to offer to you for wearing on your head the crown of irony, the iron crown. Although, to telling it truthfully, it only cost 2 and sixpence, so it is a half-a-crown. Half belongs also to me, the Ideal Reader. (They couldn't get Real one.) Pass it along that I interrupt with joke, it is from my time studding in London, developing a sense of humor to protect them where you live. In addition this is, to heading up our badwriting conferencing, me for vice. When you are going "Khartoum," I am hearing "cartoon." Location can be virtual, but keeped in mind. One must not try explanations else shot for treasoning. It is self-obvious, or it is death. And that too is only half of it. The other is caravanserai, with its musical composer, sideshows and tarts. (I know how hard they work in the bakery! I was one, once, too.) It is better for our knowledge. Dr. Kent, in this medium at one and the struck time, I love you, then I will kill you, then I will have you for dinner. Bring the wife, too. Aren't you afraid to be frozen like this, with all your assets? Don't let me forget, I have work to do. Not for a moment. You see already since last time my English is bettering. I hate it for the tongue of supercolonialism that it is. I could have been born dialecting it, and still hate it. It reminds us all over of itself. I am not always being an intellectual. My father shoveled camel-dung, and he left me his shovel. So, I am one with the working-stiff, as if named Utah Phillips Whalen. I emptied my share of bedpans into the communal trough, and I am not even leaving in Sebastopolo when we speak. Trust noone, Mr. Kent. How hard it is to hang on to your advance. I was not born to reinvent the will, only to be perverse, I will. The pure products of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan are schizzy. I drive Mercedes, but into tunnel. Who has done no less? I always believed mutual admiration was a society until we met in the sense of the internet. Brothers (and by this I mean 'Sisters' into the bargaining), we have our weapons in our own hands. We should use them anytime, but you first. Beside the direction, where your brother's wife pedals her stay-in-one-place bicycle, much to admiration by myself, is not at all "spa" as you are writing but rather "workplace of weights," with many well-equipped shod yuppies and the two of us. No lolling languidly about the oasis quafficating sour mineral spring-dribblings for people who patronize what I am patronizing. We are making our own shoes next year, in the sweating of such things as foreheads, if you believe that, belief has novel rental arrangement to circumvent plaster ceiling. It is good that we write in code, offendi, so that the over-assumed people may complicate something more sinister than the center of Helen Vendler.I try out some of you from Book of the Quotations by her Wallace Simpson: Are there those of you in other civilizations who like us call your local health food store "Food For Millionaires"? Is the national bird always the parrot? Is a questionmark shaped that way to best open door of car into where keys without intent have been remained, or baby? Would you take a can-openinger to a mosque? Is a hanging-down strip of flypaper there for the delectation of flies? Is nothing sacred, if Beckett is a saint? Excuse my excursus into history, this also I am studding when I am getting even in London. Excuse my impressionness. Not wanting to say "All one," not wanting to say "Alone." Declining to say "Stephen Spendler." Kent, I crisp up my style like Bacon, but only in case of reception theory. I bed my hegemonies. I step out of your character. My hat tilts to the starboard of language. With my little helpful head, it comes off. Surprise! I can use exclamations! You were being warned at all the time. Kent, to write to you is to lose my accent, like Garcia girl. Only for all is demonstrating discourse-analyzer, self-indulgence being what it is held to be. If I can keep it up, it will seem like ours. To me it was hard, but to her, requiring encourage. It will never be tender, despite what they are telling re Motel 6. Where did all these children come from? The egg hatched like a plot of cementary land. He had opportunity, which I took. Now we are being red herrings with fertilizer plant, spreading that around. In the U.S.A., Congrats has to declare hostilities. Having not done so, U.S.A. is not at war, therefore Crude missiles come from elsewhere, Israel is my favorite scrape-gut. If you are credenceing such, you are credenceing one god alone and his favorite prophet, Al-bim Franklen. Names are the icecubes of laughter, and it is hot here. I example. Mr.Kent, are you decent from Prussian philosphe, he whose promenade citizens tied their grandfather's hands by? He of the Kentagorical Denial? He was inherited by one of our Marx brothers, don't you co-terminate, and if not, why, you may need further study (Karl when your find works). Eventually, practice make patient, Dr. Kent, and already I am making you sit too long at the well of mail in the mall of fortune. How I am wishing to look upon your shining face and grasp your hand till we gasp "Glad to be making your acquaintance!" I hope clearly that I accept. Yours in the spurt of communisty, Davood ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:46:42 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anselm-- Howdy. Sean Killian told me we were on for Nov. 8th at Zinc. Is this all set up with you? Wanted to make sure. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ascetic aesthetics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"The precondition for the autonomy of artistic experience is the >abandonment of the attitude of tasting and savouring. The trajectory >leading to aesthetic autonomy passes through the stage of >disinterestedness" This is the death of language, a relentless march of abstract nouns and noun phrases. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:50:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Ascetic aesthetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:12 PM 9/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >>"The precondition for the autonomy of artistic experience is the >>abandonment of the attitude of tasting and savouring. The trajectory >>leading to aesthetic autonomy passes through the stage of >>disinterestedness" > >This is the death of language, a relentless march of abstract nouns and >noun phrases. ref. of "this" in second sentence not immediately clear -- death of language postponed pending clarification -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:50:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: Northwest Vispo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nico vassilakis wrote: > > An Exhibition of Northwest visual & concrete poetry > > Sept. 1 - 23 > opening Sept. 13th 4-6pm > > at The Richard Hugo House > 1634 eleventh Ave > Seattle, WA 98122 > > including work by Maris Kundzins, Helen Lessick, Jim Clinefelter, Crag Hill, > Nancy Burns, Heather McHugh, Paul Thaddeus Lambert, M.Kettner, C.C.Elian, Lex > Loeb, Thomas Lowe Taylor, C.Bush, Dean Wynveen, Nico Vassilakis, Sloy,Brent > Hendricks & others. > > curated by Nico Vassilakis nico, youre teasing us non locals, (location rears its distant head)....is there an online version in the works? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 16:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: chaxlist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Poetics: please reply to this message directly to chax press at chax@theriver.com, and not to the poetics list. I'm probably committing a sin of posting to poetics when I actually have poetics incoming mail stopped, having recently returned from an out-of-town trip. I will start up again as soon as I catch up with other work -- or does one ever catch up? I had to compile a pretty complete list of Chax Press publications recently for an exhibition, and I thought I'd post it to the list. I've added prices. As many of you know, we made handprinted and bound books exclusively here up to 1990, and since then have issued several more, although not at the rate we once did. You can assume that any book priced over about $15 on this list is a letterpress, handprinted and bound book. Some of the works which are listed for less money than that are hybrid forms, part computer-generated and laser or offset-printed, but with some aspects of traditional hand book arts employed in the production or binding. Please ask me if you have other questions. "OP" on this list, instead of a price, indicates that a book is out of print and unavailable. I have included two books which are currently being printed and bound, and these are the first two on the list. I have not included other "forthcoming" books. And right now, we've really joined the commercial world, I guess, by accepting credit card payment. So I'd like to offer anyone from the Poetics list who orders makes an order of twenty dollars or more (usually that's a minimum of two books, but three the way some of them add up) and is willing to pay by credit card, a 20% discount if they make the order during this coming week. If there's a good response, I will also consider extending that timeline. Once again, please reply to this e-mail, or order books, directly either by emailing me at chax@theriver.com (and not by emailing the poetics list) or by phoning 520-620-1626. If you want to order by credit card and take advantage of the discount, either include your credit card number and expiration date in your email, or phone it in. As an alternative, you can send a fax with appropriate information to 520-620-1636. We will generally add a $2 to $5 shipping/handling charge to orders of 1 to 10 books, depending on the weight. If you order more than 10 and will accept "book rate" shipping, we will waive the shipping/handling charges. We've had a summer here with a couple of computer glitches and one crash, and I've been trying to catch up on all previous book orders, some of which got hurt by the computer problems. So, if you think we owe you a book or two or three, please let me know that, too. Thank you, and here's the list: Lisa Cooper, & Calling It Home, $12 poetry, forthcoming October 1998 Phillip Foss, Chromatic Defacement, $12 poetry, forthcoming October 1998 Diane Glancy, A Primer of the Obsolete, $12 poetry 1998 Lydia Davis, Blind Date, $12 short story 1998 Lisa Cooper, Tilt Rail, $12 poetry 1998 Rae Armentrout, writing the plot about sets, $12 poetry 1998 Tenney Nathanson, One Block Over, $12 poetry 1998 Tom Raworth, Three Poems & Charles Alexander, Pushing Water (in one volume), $12 poetry 1998 Bob Perelman, The Masque of Rhyme, $10 poetry 1997 Karen Mac Cormack, The Tongue Moves Talk, $11 poetry 1997 Hank Lazer, 3 of 10, $14 poetry 1996 Tom Mandel, Prospect of Release, $12.95 poetry 1996 Myung Mi Kim, The Bounty, $12 poetry 1996 Mary Margaret Sloan, The Said Lands, Islands, and Premises, $11 poetry 1995 Kathleen Fraser, when new time folds up, $11 poetry 1993(Minneapolis) Norman Fischer, Precisely the Point Being Made, $10 poetry 1993 (Minneapolis, with O Books) Nathaniel Tarn, Caja del Rio, OP poetry 1993 Rosmarie Waldrop, Fan Poem for Deshika, $18 poetry 1993 Lisa Cooper, The Ballad in Memory, $50 poetry 1991 Nathaniel Mackey, Outlantish, $110 poetry 1992 Ron Silliman, Demo to Ink, $11 poetry 1992 Beverly Dahlen, A Reading 8-10, $12 poetry 1992 Gil Ott, Wheel, $18 poetry 1992 Eli Goldblatt, Sessions 1-62, $9 poetry 1991 Karen Mac Cormack, Quirks & Quillets, $8 poetry 1991 Susan Bee & Charles Bernstein, Fool’s Gold, OP poetry 1991 Sheila Murphy, Teth, $9 poetry 1991 bp Nichol, Art Facts: A Book of Contexts, $15 poetry 1990 Larry Evers & Felipe S. Molina, Wo’i Bwikam/Coyote Songs, $8 poetry 1990 Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Mizu, $75 poetry 1990 Charles Alexander, Hopeful Buildings, $9.95 poetry 1990 Charles Bernstein, Four Poems, OP poetry 1988 Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Tan Tien, OP poetry 1988 Lyn Hejinian & Kit Robinson, Individuals, $75 poetry 1988 Eli Goldblatt, Sessions, $30 poetry 1988 John Randolph Hall, Zootaxy, $25 poetry 1987 Paul Metcalf, Firebird, $50 prose/poetry 1987 (with Granary Books) Karl Young, Five Kwaidan in Sleeve Pages, OP poetry/translation 1986 Anne Kingsbury, Journal Entries, $80 prose and art 1986 Charles Alexander, Two Songs, OP poetry 1986 Paul Metcalf, Golden Delicious , OP poetry/prose 1985 Jackson Mac Low, French Sonnets, $50 poetry 1984 (last publication of Black Mesa Press, only Black Mesa publication in Tucson) charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:12:32 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. As long as I'm at it could Valerie Fox Backchannel me. It's been an interesting start of the week here including the visit of a writer friend from NYC (see below.. CHICAGO (Reuters) - 'Titanic' videos fly off store shelves. The most successful movie ever, seemed on its way Tuesday to becoming the most successful home video ever, as "Titanic" fans across the United States stayed up late and waited in line to be among the first owners of the video. "Titanic" videos went on sale at 12:01a.m. in each time zone across the U.S. and indications from early sales suggested "Titanic" could top Walt Disney Co.'s "The Lion King," which reportedly sold around 30 million copies, as the best- selling home video ever. "It's really going well," said Bob Gerhinger, Blockbuster Video's marketing manager for the Northeast. "It's exceeding all my expectations for people showing up." COLUMBUS, Ohio (Reuters) - A riot started outside a Blockbuster video store as a result of demonstrators who were against the sale of home video copies of "Titanic". A police spokesman said a large group of people blocked the entrance to the store and were screaming chants and songs against the movies mis-representation of history. Shortly before the store was re-opened at 12:01a.m. to sell the video, the group started burning copies of a large assortment of books they had brought to the scene, including Joseph Conrad's "Twix Land and Sea." The police, who are still investigating this matter, said "it seems impossible that there would be a group of over thirty people outside the store igniting books without a single bystander providing a lead to the perpetrators." Nothing is known about what the group was trying to accomplish. SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Has it come to this? A San Francisco man was hospitalized early Tuesday after an assailant pummeled him to the ground, kicked his head, and attempted to steal his new video copy of the movie blockbuster "Titanic." A police spokesman said the two men, who apparently knew each other, were both at a Blockbuster video store on the first night that "Titanic" went on sale. "The assailant punched and kicked the victim, then took the video tape," the spokesman. The 19-year-old victim was treated for an eye injury, while the assailant, aged 22, was arrested and could be charged with aggravated assault, the police spokesman said. "It looks like the Titanic video was secondary in this incident," he said. "Thank goodness - if it was the primary cause we'd all be in big trouble." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:26:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Scent of No One, Scent of Jennifer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Scent of No One, Scent of Jennifer I wake, my breasts bruised, black-blue marks around the nipples. I dream, wake, there are bite marks on my neck, my legs, my throat. I turn, dream, wake, there are black hairs on my skin, marking sign and time. I shudder, turn, dream, wake, there is lipstick on my face, my cock, my legs. I shud- der, turn, dream, wake, arise, there are cigarette stubs in the sink, wan smell of liquor in the air. I shudder, turn, dream, wake, arise, mastur- bate, I feel spent beforehand, nothing emerges: It is as if I wake, my breasts bruised, black-blue marks around the nipples. It is as if I dream, wake, there are bite marks on my neck, my legs, my throat. It is as if I turn, dream, wake, there are black hairs on my skin, marking sign and time. It is as if I shudder, turn, dream, wake, there is lipstick on my face, my cock, my legs. It is as if I shudder, turn, dream, wake, arise, there are cigarette stubs in the sink, wan smell of liquor in the air. It is as if I shudder, turn, dream, wake, arise, masturbate, feeling spent beforehand _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 18:25:18 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: new chain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Now available Chain 5: different languages. 6 x 9; 302 pages This issue presents work that is written in more than one language. Some of the writers and artists represented here use different languages daily, some use them on a less regular basis, some use them to survive, some use them in the leisure of the classroom, and some use them knowing only their sounds. Regardless, we have read the move to write in more than one language as political, as a move that questions monolingualism and other homogenizing language controls. This issue argues that an aesthetic space that acknowledges the difficulties of communication and respects these difficulties can be an antidote to social spaces that demand “English first.” Created with the help of an international team of associate editors—-Adam Aitken, Charles Bernstein, Javant Biarujia, Manuel Brito, Nicole Brossard, Norma Cole, Maria Damon, Dubravka Djuric, C. S. Giscombe, Ray Gonzalez, Georgi Gospodinov, Ernesto Livon Grosman, Lyn Hejinian, Myung Mi Kim, Walter K. Lew, Traviz Ortis, Marjorie Perloff, M. Nourbese Philip, Joan Retallack, Catherine Schieve, Ken Sherwood, Jeffrey Twitchell-Waas, Edwin Torres, and Cecilia Vicuña—-this issue features multilingual work in a wide range of languages. Includes work in Catalan, Cherokee, Chinese, Cyrillic, Czech, English, Esperanto, Finnish, French, Galician, German, Guarani, Greek, Hebrew, Hungarian, Ilocano, Japanese, Klingon, Korean, Latin, New English, Norwegian, Pig Latin, Pijin, Portugese, Quechua, Rumanian, Russian, Spanish, Tagalog, Tamazight, Taneraic, Tibetan, Tongues, Vorlin, Wurundjeri, Yiddish, Zaum, and many other languages. Anne Waldman has called Chain “one of the best ‘outrider’ magazines, a true cultural intervention.” Since 1993, Chain has been publishing a yearly issue of work gathered loosely around a special topic. The special topic allows us to switch the editorial question that we ask each piece of work submitted from “is this a great piece of art” to “does this piece of art tell us something about the topic that we didn’t otherwise know.” This makes Chain a little rougher around the edges, a little less aesthetically predictable. Within the frame of the special topic, we tend to privilege mixed media and collaborative work and work by emerging or younger artists. Please check out our website at http://www2.hawaii.edu/~spahr/chain for more back issue information and calls for work for forthcoming issues. $20 for two year subscription $12 per issue MENTION THE POETICS LIST AND PAY ONLY $10. Chain Department of English University of Hawai‘i, Manoa 1733 Donaghho Road Honolulu, Hawai‘i 96822 808-956-3083 (fax) email orders accepted send mail to: js@lava.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:28:33 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Ascetic aesthetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > Here is a quote from Adorno that typifies the sort of mentality I was > talking about. He makes the Kant connection himself, only Kant didn't go > far enough in his view: > > However, art does not come to rest in > disinterestedness. Might suggest Diane Beddoes " Deleuze, Kant and Indifference". Different than disinterest, though, I guess. > It moves on. And in so doing it reproduces, in > different form, the interest inherent in disinterestedness. In a false > world all_ hedone_ is false. This goes for artistic pleasure, too. Art > renounces happiness for the sake of happiness, thus enabling desire to > survive in art." "Dequincey's admirable text _The Last Days of Immanuel Kant_ said everything, but only the reverse side of things that will find their full development in the four poetic formulas of Kantianism. This is the Shakespearean aspect of Kant, who begins as Hamlet and winds up as Lear, whose daughters would be the post Kantians." from Deleuze "On Four Poetic Formulas That Might Summarize the Kantian Philosophy." Kant is our tableaux (like marx) in our Clinton/Yeltzin (rock&roll in the free world) times, in trying, to determine, whether to annunciate or renunciate the beautiful (much less the true) (to say nothing of happiness). So it may be easier to believe in our Masoch contractualism. Fine print pleasure. But I don't know. mc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 02:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Orpheus Subject: trad/Eliot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well Children it looks like some of those bad boys think that getting rid of Eliot and 'dusting him' and 'recontextualizing his work' in some so called counter-tradition is going to get him some prestige in certain circles of leftist type of would be readers and or even would be poets of a certain ilk that fancies themselves poets and even lovers of language. well, we all know now, don't we, that poetry changes nothing and that being a right wing christian automatically excludes one from being a poet in that nasty so-called counter tradition. And some folks feel real strongthat if ya ask a question, well geez, well Lord knows you can't possibly be asking a valid question.Well, we know that if the editorshad said,, we wanted to publish a poem by the Possum, but the big bad publisher's can't afford it, well, geez, then we know that they would have gained the credibility of their ordinary readers and then the sympathy would have flowed totheir cause. But as it stands, we all know that hatred and resentment and jealousy and envy at the heart beat of so many bad readers and especially the left who never seem to be able to figure things out without wanting to put down a person now, do they? or dont they?afterall theyhate Possum so much just he was so successful and they're not and never ever going to be. And you think of poets like Hart Crane who spent just years trying to get out from under that Angel that Anxiety the Possum seemed to cause him. But Allan Tate and Berryman and others they did fine, and did not have to call him names. Like the lefty types do oh Dear!!! Well, you know weak poets abound in every time, and so do weak readers oh dear!! Well they are so mixed up with their american idea of peotry as democracy and Eliot was just not like that and Neither was Joyce or old Ez. I remember when he came to see your mother and he the Possum just sat there reciting ream after ream of poetry by Auden, and Thomas and Joyce and Yeats and so many others, so many, so many. Ah! the room it just vibrated!! I remember yer mother she ran in the other room, and went found some of them there pomes from her youth by that French poet and Mister Eliot well, he just sat there with tears inhis eyes. And then he did some by Herbert, and Donne and he read us a passage of Djuna Barnes who yer aunt had known in Paris when she was working in the fashion business. and I remember when he bought our first copy of Prufrock and Other Poems. I was so thrilled. Well, you see I just dont get this stuff by the newer poets, they seem so bored and resentful.Ah, but William hewas never bored, but he was jealousof old Possum and Ezra. And you know, like some, they think CD is a professor, but that aint the case, CD is just a reader who lost her head like Orpheus did over reading too much poetry rightor wrong, left or right, and just being a poor Irish Jewish girl well shejust has such Passion from so many restless and lonesome nights of sitting up with the poetry and the words, so whyshould she be a he? when there is no poetry likethe word which vibrates through memory and desire. Well if anyone ever memorized a poem, it would not be the Waste Land now would it? It sure as tarnation hell would not be a poem by a rambling shuffling sufi american poet who only went from one book to another complaing and hating about the sorrows ofhis people and expecting others tounderstand them. Shall I dare to eat a spoon and spit the dead words of the counter-tradition up your asshole and make you eat them from assuming something about a stranger, and all them elitists making eyes to kill your voice and love of poetry and poets dead and alive. alive like the dead and dead like the alive. Ah! but you see, dear, even here they hate the gender which speaks a lingo unlike their own, and they cannot help it, half of them are losers who will be forgotten in the night of the darkness coming at them soon. Ah, yes of course they were good poems in that silly book, but then what happened to Jack Spicer, and what happened to so many others, et tant d'autres et tant d'autres. We dont know do we, we never shall until we are dead. Well I dont suppose Derek Walcott cares to have his verse besides mister ginsberg's whose ear for rhyme was a carpenter's dream, inother words flat flat flat. Oh well, what can ya do? Eat your heart out and go back to Villon, if I find oneof their poets that can move me as much as Miriam Waddington or Dorothy Livesay, well then I will rush to their books like a fish rushing upstream. But I doubt that day will come, because I think they are burnt out, and that their ideas are so old fashioned they cant see the trees for the forest. Poetry, such a hard art, and so long to gain, and life being so short. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:18:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: trad/Eliot In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What inspired this rant? At 02:10 AM 9/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > Well Children it looks like some of those bad boys think that >getting rid of Eliot and 'dusting him' and 'recontextualizing his work' in >some so called counter-tradition is going to get him some prestige in >certain circles of leftist type of would be readers and or even would be >poets of a certain ilk that fancies themselves poets and even lovers of >language. well, we all know now, don't we, that poetry changes nothing >and that being a right wing christian automatically excludes one from >being a poet in that nasty so-called counter tradition. And some folks >feel real strongthat if ya ask a question, well geez, well Lord knows you >can't possibly be asking a valid question.Well, we know that if the >editorshad said,, we wanted to publish a poem by the Possum, but the big bad >publisher's can't afford it, well, geez, then we know that they would have >gained the credibility of their ordinary readers and then the sympathy >would have flowed totheir cause. But as it stands, we all know that hatred >and resentment and jealousy and envy at the heart beat of so many bad >readers and especially the left who never seem to be able to figure things >out without wanting to put down a person now, do they? or dont >they?afterall theyhate Possum so much just he was so successful and >they're not and never ever going to be. And you think of poets like Hart >Crane who spent just years trying to get out from under that Angel that >Anxiety the Possum seemed to cause him. But Allan Tate and Berryman and >others they did fine, and did not have to call him names. Like the lefty >types do oh Dear!!! Well, you know weak poets abound in every time, and so >do weak readers oh dear!! Well they are so mixed up with their american >idea of peotry as democracy and Eliot was just not like that and Neither >was Joyce or old Ez. I remember when he came to see your mother and he the >Possum just sat there reciting ream after ream of poetry by Auden, and >Thomas and Joyce and Yeats and so many others, so many, so many. Ah! the >room it just vibrated!! I remember yer mother she ran in the other room, >and went found some of them there pomes from her youth by that French poet >and Mister Eliot well, he just sat there with tears inhis eyes. And then >he did some by Herbert, and Donne and he read us a passage of Djuna Barnes >who yer aunt had known in Paris when she was working in the fashion >business. and I remember when he bought our first copy of Prufrock and >Other Poems. I was so thrilled. Well, you see I just dont get this stuff >by the newer poets, they seem so bored and resentful.Ah, but William hewas >never bored, but he was jealousof old Possum and Ezra. >And you know, like some, they think CD is a professor, but that aint the >case, CD is just a reader who lost her head like Orpheus did over reading >too much poetry rightor wrong, left or right, and just being a poor Irish >Jewish girl well shejust has such Passion from so many restless and >lonesome nights of sitting up with the poetry and the words, so whyshould >she be a he? when there is no poetry likethe word which vibrates through >memory and desire. Well if anyone ever memorized a poem, it would not be >the Waste Land now would it? It sure as tarnation hell would not be a poem >by a rambling shuffling sufi american poet who only went from one book to >another complaing and hating about the sorrows ofhis people and expecting >others tounderstand them. Shall I dare to eat a spoon and spit the dead >words of the counter-tradition up your asshole and make you eat them from >assuming something about a stranger, and all them elitists making eyes to >kill your voice and love of poetry and poets dead and alive. alive like >the dead and dead like the alive. Ah! but you see, dear, even here they >hate the gender which speaks a lingo unlike their own, and they cannot >help it, half of them are losers who will be forgotten in the night of the >darkness coming at them soon. Ah, yes of course they were good poems in >that silly book, but then what happened to Jack Spicer, and what happened >to so many others, et tant d'autres et tant d'autres. We dont know do we, >we never shall until we are dead. Well I dont suppose Derek Walcott cares >to have his verse besides mister ginsberg's whose ear for rhyme was a >carpenter's dream, inother words flat flat flat. Oh well, what can ya do? >Eat your heart out and go back to Villon, if I find oneof their poets >that can move me as much as Miriam Waddington or Dorothy Livesay, well >then I will rush to their books like a fish rushing upstream. But I doubt >that day will come, because I think they are burnt out, and that their >ideas are so old fashioned they cant see the trees for the forest. >Poetry, such a hard art, and so long to gain, and life being so short. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:45:37 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Re: Ascetic Pleasure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Adorno also writes however: "The bourgeois want art voluptuous and life ascetic; the reverse would be better." (AT p 13) - which qualifies what was quoted earlier. Fred ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:44:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: trad/Eliot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" talk about straw dawgs, or atomizing a dead horse, why say something in two words when you can say it in two thousand, orpheus, ha, the dead grass flattens further to hear your song, listen to eliot reading rock drill and listen to ginsberg reading kaddish then you'll know something. Just because you like something doesn't make you a good listener and someone who likes something entirely other a bad reader full of hate, monoculture champions will bring on the poetato famine, don't do us any favours charlie billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 04:56:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alice Notley Subject: Phil Whalen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Anselm, Phil Whalen SELECTED due out next April from Penguin, edited by Mike Rothenberg, with an introduction I believe by Leslie Scalapino. Love, Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:13:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Valerie Fox Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: <35EC552C.A4262EC7@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is Valerie Fox on this list? If so, could you backchannel me as well.... cs.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: aesthetic pleasure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fred wrote: "Adorno also writes however: "The bourgeois want art voluptuous and life ascetic; the reverse would be better." (AT p 13) - which qualifies what was quoted earlier." I don't know that this is a significant qualification at all. Can my life be voluptuous if I deny myself artistic pleasure? Where does life end and art begin? Is not aesthetic asceticism itself "bourgeois"? It certainly doesn't come from any other social class known to me. Did Adorno really want life "voluptuous"? In which case how can he say "in a false world all hedone [i.e. pleasure] is suspect." I suspect that for the sake of a clever chiasmus he asserts something that he doesn't really mean to say. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:39:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: The World 54 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" The World 54 is now available from the Poetry Project, featuring: Roberta Allen Ece Ayhan Anselm Berrigan Charlotte Carter Allison Adelle Hedge Coke Clark Coolidge Marcella Durand Ed Friedman Kimiko Hahn Yukihede Maeshima Hartman Paul Hoover Laird Hunt Christian X. Hunter Kenneth Koch Daniel Krakauer Tan Lin Pansy Maurer-Alvarez Gillian McCain Susan Mills Murat Nemet-Nejat Charles North Guy Overfelt Ron Padgett Ann Rower Edwin Torres Lewis Warsh Barrett Watten Susan Wheeler Terence Winch On Sunday, September 13th, 5 pm, at St. Mark's Church, there will be "The World 54 Reading" as part of the St. Mark's Church Open House/Downtown Arts Festival in NYC. Door price $7, students and seniors $4--includes a copy of The World. There will also be dance, church and theater events all day. For more information, call (212) 674-0910 or (212) 674-6377. The World is $7 per issue, $25 for a 4-issue subscription. Checks can be made out to: The Poetry Project and mailed to St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Where there's smoke there're mirrors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A TRUE ACCOUNT OF TALKING MY ROOMMATE INTO BELIEVING I'D SAID ANYTHING RELEVANT ABOUT HIS WORK WHATSOEVER I told Chris to get over it & put on his shirt, "Obviously, we need more cigarettes, since none of these women are calling us back, what the fuck, why even bother writing all these poems in the first place? It took me _two days_ to get this one to look like an octopus, look at it! it's beautiful! and she won't even kiss me anymore, let alone leave her husband!" "Yeah, well, Mark Wallace wrote the most relevant post in this whole--" "Wallace?!?" I shrieked. We bounded down four flights of stairs, "I don't know," I said, "he has a point, but it isn't mine." Brooklyn. I pointed at the moon. "All you did, Gary, was juxtapose my poems with ones I'd told you were important to me. It's not like you did a close reading of them." "That wasn't the point, didn't you get the connections I was making?" "No, but you can't read anything on e-mail, and besides, it's not like those poems influenced the ones you referred to." "It doesn't matter," I said, "that was my whole point. Everything influences you all the time, like even if you're focusing on one thing, everything else is resident there." "We should look for a new chair," Chris said, reminding me it was garbage night, "everything I own is breaking down, I'm breaking down." He coughed, dramatically. We turned the corner onto 7th Ave. At that moment I remembered that someone had e-mailed me earlier to tell me a poem I'd written was "indulgent." Yeah? You live in a shithole & try to get excited about "paring down." Jack Smith became more extravagant, more indulgent, the worse his living conditions. I could connect this up to Chris's poems, easy. What's a non sequitur (his poems are filled with them) if not the manifestation of capitalist frustration? Like, "Look, here's everything, you can have none of it." The non-sequitur gives you everything, while taking it all away. The non-sequitur is very American. "Nobody's gonna give a shit about what you say anyway cuz you're my roommate." "Poetry is failure, Chris, we're all failures, & beautifully so." Even after saying it, I didn't believe it. I realized at that moment there wasn't anything I really believed in. I liked how the streetlights looked, and realized I liked them because there was no way to describe them. Accurately. They burned coldly, above the street. So what? We all do. ______________________________________ NOTES FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION: Under whose influence was this poem most likely written: Frank O'Hara, Amy Gerstler, Petronius, Sharon Mesmer, Blaise Cendrars, Michael Lally, Eileen Myles, Villon, Chris Stroffolino, Jordan Davis, Ovid, David Trinidad, Gerald Burns, Ange Mlinko, Mayakovsky, Charles Bukowski or Kenneth Koch? The poem does not seem to answer to, directly, Jacques Debrot's challenge to "uncover" in Stroffolino's work the influence of Dylan, Shakespeare, etc. Is the poet "making a statement" in his refusal to operate within the specific terms of this particular discourse and reading, or is he simply "avoiding the tough work because he's lazy from too much dairy, cigarettes and beer"? Do you find people "burn coldly" on e-mail? Why would anyone write a poem in the shape of an octopus? If the poet had put, say, a lemur on the sidewalk beneath the streetlight, would you have paid closer attention to the poem? If it can be said that Paul Eulard gives you a world only to take it away, piece by piece, is Chris Stroffolino Michael Palmer's distant cousin? Debrot has been oddly silent the last day or two. Does this speak of his tacit agreement with, or refusal to operate within, the terms of the present writer? Or simply ennui? Why hasn't the present writer brought up James Tate yet? Is he uncomfortable around goatees? Why hasn't he brought up Brautigan? Isn't the act of hyper-extended metaphor (another feature of Stroffolino's work) "Brautiganesque"? Or is this something "one finds" in Shakespeare? Why hasn't he yet quoted Stroffolino's "I wish I could control where my shit goes/ but the things that pass through me were never mine"? Wouldn't that have said everything he's said so far, but more succinctly, & direct from the horse's mouth? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Re: Where there's smoke there're mirrors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I love dialogue poems between old married couples. My guess of influentness: O'Hara via Robert Frost. At 10:19 AM 9/2/98 -0400, Gary Sullivan wrote: >A TRUE ACCOUNT OF TALKING MY ROOMMATE INTO BELIEVING >I'D SAID ANYTHING RELEVANT ABOUT HIS WORK WHATSOEVER > >I told Chris to get over it >& put on his shirt, "Obviously, >we need >Under whose influence was this poem most likely >written: ....? <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 07:46:15 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: A/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts is pleased to announce the publication of its Tenth Issue Poetry: Paul Vangelisti, Katy Lederer, Joel Brouwer, Elizabeth Willis, Mark McManus, Christine Hume Translation: Carmen Firan: Poems from the Romanian Translated by Julian Semilian & Sanda Agalidi and Andrei Codrescu Fiction: Merrill Gilfillan, Kenward Elmslie Review: Linda Healey on Ted Hughes Paul Hoover on Poems for the Millennium: Volume One Inside Art: Yoko Ono Cover Art: Michael Goldberg Retail Price: $7.99. Price to List Members: $5.99. Send to: Arshile, P.O. Box 3749, Los Angeles, CA 90078. (Checks should be payable to Arshile.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:46:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hENRY gOULD Subject: Re: Where there's smoke there're mirrors In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:19:19 -0400 from THE IMPORTANT ISSUE IS: when you dream a long complicated dream in which you are being kicked in the head by an ornery mule in Wisconsin before meeting the whole extended family and you suddenly wake up after bumping your noggin on the corner of the bedframe - was the mule-kick/headbump the origin of the dream narrative or its denouement? are we awake yet? - zenmeister Spandrift [c/o Pavel Florensky] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: If you're going to sleep, you might as well dream MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . . . THAT, Henry, is the important issue. On Wednesday, September 02, 1998 10:47 AM, hENRY gOULD [SMTP:AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] wrote: > THE IMPORTANT ISSUE IS: > > when you dream a long complicated dream in which you are being kicked in > the head by an ornery mule in Wisconsin before meeting the whole extended > family and you suddenly wake up after bumping your noggin on the corner > of the bedframe - was the mule-kick/headbump the origin of the dream > narrative or its denouement? > > are we awake yet? > > - zenmeister Spandrift [c/o Pavel Florensky] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Probable influences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "The Story of my Life" Bored with my prose style I vacationed in Tahiti. The women were not what I expected; no sympathy was demanded of me. I vacationed in Tahiti, regretting only that fine dust in my nostrils. No sympathy was demanded of me--happily, since I had none to give. Regretting only that fine dust in my nostrils I lived among the dead, happily. Since I had none to give, I wasn't worried about the blood supply. I lived among the dead leaves of Autumn. Unaware of the venom, I wasn't worried about the blood supply, not even about those leaves of Autumn, unaware of the venom in my recalcitrant heart! Not even about those wise enough to invest every cent in my recalcitrant heart! She might have warned me that she was to invest every cent in such inimitable resorts. She might have warned me that she was bored with my prose style! In such inimitable resorts the women were not what I expected. Probable influences on this poem: Gaugin, Heidegger, Ashbery, Rimbaud, San Juan de la Cruz, Gilbert Sorrentino, Juan Ramon Jimenez, Jerome Rothenberg, Celan, "Rene" Rilke, Pasolini, Cavafy, Judith Butler, Antoni Tapies, Jacques Derriere, Eric Dolphy, Andre Gide, Basho Matsuo, Marianne Moore, Pere Gimferrer, Pierre Reverdy, Bill Berkson, Francis Scott O'Hara, Luisa Castro, Juan Goytisolo, Theodor Adorno, Borges, Jose Lezama Lima, Paul Chambers, Guy Davenport, WCW, HD, Pessoa, William Blake, Ruben Dario, Maiakovsky, Leopardo, Quevedo, James Joyce, Henry James, Samuel Beckett, St. Augustine, Leonard Elmore, Li Po, Gary Snyder, Char, Ponge, Ramon Gomez de la Serna, Emily Dickinson, Virginia Wooolf, Horace, Mallarme... (partial list) But of course if I was really influenced by all these people I would be a) a better poet OR b) even MORE derivative... Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:06:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: address request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" If anyone has an e-mail address for Ishmael Klein & could backchannel it to me I'd be much obliged. Thanks. Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:34:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Man beaten in 'Titanic' video robbery attempt SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Has it come to this? A San Francisco man was hospitalized early Tuesday after an assailant pummeled him to the ground, kicked his head, and attempted to steal his new video copy of the movie blockbuster "Titanic." A police spokesman said the two men, who apparently knew each other, were both at a Blockbuster video store on the first night that "Titanic" went on sale. "The assailant punched and kicked the victim, then took the video tape," the spokesman. The 19-year-old victim was treated for an eye injury, while the assailant, aged 22, was arrested and could be charged with aggravated assault, the police spokesman said. "It looks like the Titanic video was secondary in this incident," he said. "Thank goodness - if it was the primary cause we'd all be in big trouble." ### ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Northwest Vispo In-Reply-To: from "nico vassilakis" at Aug 31, 98 07:27:31 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies that this is going to th list, but NICO, cld u please e-mail me? thanx, c. > An Exhibition of Northwest visual & concrete poetry > > Sept. 1 - 23 > opening Sept. 13th 4-6pm > > at The Richard Hugo House > 1634 eleventh Ave > Seattle, WA 98122 > > including work by Maris Kundzins, Helen Lessick, Jim Clinefelter, Crag Hill, > Nancy Burns, Heather McHugh, Paul Thaddeus Lambert, M.Kettner, C.C.Elian, Lex > Loeb, Thomas Lowe Taylor, C.Bush, Dean Wynveen, Nico Vassilakis, Sloy,Brent > Hendricks & others. > > curated by Nico Vassilakis > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 14:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Sycamore Review, featuring... In-Reply-To: <01BDD65F.E57A0BE0@gps12@columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sycamore Review (#10.2) [Summer/Fall 1998] is even now maturescing on bookstands. And it features... David Cameron Joshua Clover Brenda Coultas Mark Halliday Bill Knott Richard Kostelanetz Billy Little Sheila Murphy Ron Silliman and some people who write fiction. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:26:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Re: address request In-Reply-To: <199809021700.NAA22779@bart.artomatic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Anselm, I don't think Ishmael has E-mail... I've asked her for her address many times. If you'd like her mailing address (it's changed since the last time I gave it to you), tell me... I'll call it up. Love, Katy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Lennon Subject: Announcement: Xenia: A Review of Digital Literature and Art Comments: cc: brian-lennon@uiowa.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing the first issue of _Xenia: A Review of Digital Literature and Art_, an electronic journal addressing the impact of digital media on literary and other cultural practices. Issue no. 1 includes "We Interrupt Our Regularly Scheduled Programming," an essay at pedagogy and poetics by Joe Amato; Michael Joyce's review of Dierdre Grimes's on-line text "A journal for my child"; Nell McClister's critical survey of digital art nodes and jump stations on the Web; reviews of on-line serials and a hypermedia work by damian lopes; archival material and more. Please direct your browser to http://www.xeniareview.com. ___________________________________ Brian Lennon editor@xeniareview.com xenia: a review of digital literature and art http://www.xeniareview.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:42:04 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: new chain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Juliana, I believe this new chain is included in my subscription. I have moved and in case you haven't sent them out yet my new address is: Rachel Levitsky 159 Eastern Parkway #6K Brooklyn, NY 11238 thank you Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:52:38 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: What's there is there. I'm here . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great collage Gary--how should we perform it? a million endless and overlapping disembodied voices or the loudest voice wins? -rdl Gary Sullivan wrote: > > Last Exit to Multiplicity > > or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying & Love the Bottomless Cusp > > for Jacques, Jordan, Chris, Susan, Henry, David, David, Mark y Mark y Mark > & anyone else who wants it > > "To speak is to appear as a continuum" --Daniel Davidson > > "There isn't room for absolution" --Sheila E. Murphy > > "Countless are the beauties of land & sea we've already seen, shining > brilliantly in the light of our eyes" --Gary Sullivan > > "Perception's gifts are too numerous to explain" --Laurie Price > > "eternity is a burning intimacy" --Drew Gardner > > What I mean to say is, "To begin with, I could have slept with all of the > people in the poems." (Spicer) In other words, "But they're not perfect he > said. They're never perfect. There's always something missing." (Di Prima) And, > "I begin to copy my favorite pornography books and become the main person in > each of them." (Acker) What about the anxiety of the influencial? "But after > being photographed alongside of me,/ you throw me back. Afraid of what I'd do/ > inside of you?" (Stroffolino) > > The anxiety of the would-be-influential and those who mediate for them is > palpable today: Every other call in my office from some desperate media hack > wanting to speak with a Columbia History specialist in Modern British History > to give their sad little made-for-TV Diana-narrative credibility. When you > refuse to help them, they become vicious, threaten to call your supervisor, the > Dean, get you removed from your job, "Don't you know who I am? Ned Fergeshnurgh > of NBC!" You can almost feel the sores in Ned's stomach bleeding. > > "Not Me" means not necessarily a turn towards hermeticism. Did it for Eileen? > > If I is another, I is not just any other. The self, whether considered as > construct or consumation, makes itself felt, presently, as specifically made > manifest: > > A Glimpse > > There is a knot in the middle of my head > that will never be untied. > Two monkeys sit there, > one on the right turned toward me, the > other crouched and turned > away. They > have red hair and do not play > with their chains. But sit on a ledge > above Venice? anyway a city with canals > painted by Breughel, I see > them in a mirror when I look for my own face. > > (John Wieners) > > from As If We Could Ever Be Interested in What's between the Points of > Interest: > > I thought that what I thought was more like > What I felt than what I did was. But I thought > (or felt) that others would think that what I did > Was more like what I felt (and mattered more) > Than what I thought was. And dressing up like my > Superego when it thinks the only things that matter > Are in me, they yell. "Hey, pig, cripple, Mr. Substance- > But-No-Style, Mr. Signifyin' Monkee." having got my > Number by the balls, but I was too busy pretending > I was too busy to listen. > > (Chris Stroffolino) > > If I am what I read then I am everything I've read, am reading, will read. At > least. And cultural neglect might allow the poet to say more than patronage: > > from Song of the Cut-Price Poets: > > To the shafts of your wagons sunk deep in blood and mire > Time and again we harnessed our splendid words > Called your huge slaughteryards Fields of Honour > True steel, trusty companions your bloodstained swords. > > (Bertolt Brecht) > > from Allowance Money that Is Death to You: > > I hold my tongue until sanity goes on strike > And stinks up the place with saints > That threaten to dub you satan until vexed > By breathing past the treelines of martyrdom > Into the silence that's really the next poem > Unless you can stir the clouds out without the coffee > Raining up into your face on a swing casting shadows > > (Chris Stroffolino) > > And given everything, why not say everything, include everything? There is no > reason, in our poems, to be monogamists. There is every reason in the world not > to be. Each, and each And . . . > > To be continued as the day wears on . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 05:59:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: rainwashed suddenized boats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On my rain ashed suddenized boat As we pass tohrug debr s feild the brainwas ed sudnaese poet think terrible terrible hinkings harma kharma whhter saboatige or no tohught c n fiish here but dud in the thu p of their fiishing odd h w it froces my engilsh batterer now the raw comes to prety pegy's c ve where a poepl of ad pting me still say oat there oat there on y boe-ut a mental flap life jokets ab ent life rainwasht can ck commontator catgores gretr att active so less glamorous if you want Real or if not sti l ayerves I myslef am sl ping on coach next to the left-on tv a sudd n urgenting tone is altreing me into a wa efulness from sweat dra ming rebrith of love to conq r werald as poets bound to then impcat slammign my hed, hart sa k carna e of war Mr. Kent is foretelyng Norma Lee McLeod sma l bits of rubble lit by flar s or her saing by prayers canadian english obtrud ng my (me me) set brigign all bakc home our khat oum if we are fiding out fairule purely me hanical isn't altring pure convict where i am sta ding brought to o r feet from or is by jfk origin poin honroring after head man shaterdt by terrorists i lundered car hmcs preserver after horse i leaving war is o ly civilians any more in barn laughing joking joining mile- igh club boomb ripped apart 'like wa e on rock' then ther co munity in breif anexity wan with the so many cropses to et rnity sk lit by flaws an inverse oz how fragile beaut ful objects we created mr. kent grim hi arous brether rainwashed suddenized survivo s of cadavers am I forge ting belief-system raised by guarantied to m ke death platable or fantati ally deseriable you come too fogvie my tpynig am feleing sathered each a d each and each in catugroey planload Davood ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:53:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Strike MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Like the sudden cessation of a hand Upon your shoulder as you desist Your activities in light of the demand For a percentage of the thousand, So Sosa and McGwire fire again and Again up into the stands, they insist On terrifying the air-traffic, Their chances will not be missed, Their balls as they run must click Against the System check The engines are running: yes/no. The natives are running: yes/no. The Russians are running: yes/no. The salmon are running: yes/no. The bulls are running: yes/no. The noses are running: yes/no. The sores are running: yes/no. The horses are hung: yes/no. The dirty are hungry: yes/no. The iron hot: yes/no. Guidance control ready: yes/no. Launch rescue mission: yes/no. Fire warning shot over the rainbow: yes/no/now. From on high no not as in tight or stoned Harry Carey surveys the millennial reparations while pharmaceutical Monica sucks off the tip of an angry iceberg into which my luxury liner your luxury liner everybody's luxury liner suddenly must run: yes/no. Frivolity is a stern taskmaster: yes/no/maybe so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: query: Unamuno, Mandelstam quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for the source of two (translated) quotes: "We do not die of darkness, but of the cold." Miguel de Unamuno "My age, my beast" Mandelstam Found the Unamuno once in some treatise, but can't remember which. Don't need the page number, just the name of the work. Any tips gratefully received. Thanks, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:36:36 EDT Reply-To: Irving Weiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Protests against dismissals Comments: cc: avant-garde@lists.village.Virginia.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From Clemente Padin and also from Viktor Todorovic, sent to him by = Clemente and thence to other addressees: I am transmitting you this serious accusation of attack and censorship to the art and, in particular, to the mail art. The = success of the campaign depends on you, it is say, it depend on the = diffusion that you could give you to the communication (including thw wegsites) = and of the expressions of rejection that you transmit to the addresses = indicated to the end. Fraternal greetings. Estimado amigos: Estoy trasmitiendo a Uds. esta grave = acusaci=F3n de ataque y censura al arte y, en particular, al arte correo. El = =E9xito de la campa=F1a depende de Uds., es decir, depende de la difusi=F3n = que Uds. le puedan dar al comunicado (incluyendo las p=E1ginas de internet) y = de las expresiones de rechazo que Uds. trasmitan a las direcciones = indicadas abajo. Saludos fraternos: CENSORSHIP AND ATTACK ON MAIL ART IN CHILE In response of the systematic and offensive political persecution = and the intolerance that for various years have been going on at the = University of Chile's Fine Art School (actions promoted and spurred by = reactionary, totalitarian an pro Pinochet sectors) on March 98, the Mail Art = Exhibit "Stop: liberty, diversity and pluralism" was held at the Santiago's Museum of Contemporary Art, in defense of the constant attacks by = sectors in power. As a result, Humberto Nilo, the Director of the U. de = Chile's Fine Art School and organizer of the event, was dismissed from his = position along with the Museum's Director and the Curator of the exhibit: = Mrs. Rosario Letelier and Mr. Ernesto Munioz. The brillant track records of the dismissed wich includes their = strong defense of Human Rights during the chilean dictatorship; = recuperating Guillermo Deisler memoirs, and hundreds of other artistic manifestation in = defense of Human Rights and the dissemination of the best in Contemporary = Art, were not taken into account. It is paradoxical, not to mention denigrating, that after 17 years = of military dictatorship in Chile, and after reaching (as certain = oficialist sectors proclaim) democratic and social harmony levels worthy of = being emulated by the rest of the continent; we have to experience the = sad spectacle in wich cultural spaces are closed through economic strangulation, = harrassment and dismissal of distinguished artists, simply because they don't = share the "official line" and open or covert censorship of critical = manifestations on what's established and current. These cases, are not only attacks on people of proven professional = and artistic excellence, they constitute a frontal attack on the = principles that ground culture, in addition to being a crass outrage on the = libertarian aspirations of an broad sector of the national and international = artistic community. It is time we sponsor and stimulate the global coscience = among all those artists who believe on the diversity and pluralism in = art, to confront outrages such as that have just taken place in Chile. It = has to be done now, since with the sophisticated strategies for = manipulation and control, in the hands of the new inquisitioners of culture... = tomorrow could be too late! The intolerance and desdain for cultural diversity are achieving = strategic permanence in those places that have historically been destinated = to protecting diversity. Perhaps that's why there's been a strong push to silence = them. What about critical view and reflection? Or is it that we are = facing the beginning of a world regime with a cultural policy that is = predominently non-critical, blind and "light" aligned with the purposes of = Neo-liberalism? Faced with the fear that the arrogance and brutality of the chilean regime could put in peril the future of Humberto Nilo, Rosario = Letelier and Ernesto Munioz, we begin this World Campaign to repudiate = censorship and personal attacks against any artist, regardless of whether he = practices Mail Art, anywhere on the face of the Earth, requesting from = everyone to send-in expressions of solidarity and rejection against all sorts = of discriminatory policies on cultural matters, so that in some way, their offenders = can't get away with their threats unscathed. CENSURA Y ATAQUE AL ARTE CORREO EN CHILE A ra=EDz de las sistem=E1ticas y ofensivas persecuciones pol=EDticas e intolerancia que por varios a=F1os se dan en la Facultad de Artes de la Universidad de Chile -acciones promovidas e = incitadas por sectores reaccionarios, totalitaristas y Pinochetistas- se = convoc=F3 y realiz=F3 el pasado marzo de 1998, la exposici=F3n de arte correo "STOP: libertad, diversidad y pluralismo", en defensa de los constantes ataques de estos sectores de poder, en el Museo = de Arte Contempor=E1neo de Santiago. Como resultado de la misma, el = Director de la Escuela de Bellas Artes de la Universidad de Chile, Humberto Nilo, organizador de la muestra, no s=F3lo fue expulsado de su = cargo, sino tambi=E9n, el Director y Curador del Museo que alberg=F3 la exposici=F3n la Sra. Rosario Letelier y el Sr. Ernesto Mu=F1oz. De nada sirvieron las brillantes trayectorias de los expulsados ni = su f=E9rrea defensa de los derechos humanos durante la dictadura = chilena, incluyendo la recuperaci=F3n de la memoria de Guillermo Deisler, el eterno exiliado, y cientos de otras manifestaciones art=EDsticas en defensa de los derechos humanos y la difusi=F3n de lo mejor del = arte contempor=E1neo. Resulta parad=F3jico, por no decir denigrante, que despu=E9s de 17 a=F1os de dictadura militar en Chile, y habiendo alcanzado = -seg=FAn lo pregonan ciertos sectores oficialistas- unos niveles de = democracia y convivencia social dignos de emular en el resto del continente; = tengamos que asistir al triste espect=E1culo de cierre de espacios = culturales a trav=E9s del estrangulamiento econ=F3mico, el hostigamiento y despido de sus empleos de destacados artistas por no compartir = con la l=EDnea oficial y la censura abierta o solapada de toda manifestaci= =F3n cr=EDtica sobre lo establecido y lo vigente. Estos casos no son s=F3lo ataques a personas de probada excelencia profesional y art=EDstica, sino m=E1s bien constituyen un ataque frontal a los principios que cimientan la cultura, adem=E1s de un craso atropello a las aspiraciones libertarias de un amplio sector = de la comunidad art=EDstica tanto nacional como internacional. Es hora de fomentar e incentivar la conciencia mundial entre todos aquellos = artistas que creemos en la diversidad y pluralidad del arte, para hacerle = frente a atropellos como el que acaba de ocurrir en Chile. Y tiene que ser = ahora, ya que con las sofisticadas estrategias de manipulaci=F3n y control en manos de los nuevos inquisidores de la cultura... =A1ma=F1ana podr=EDa resultar demasiado tarde! La intolerancia y el desprecio por la diversidad cultural est=E1n entroniz=E1ndose justamente en aquellos lugares destinados hist= =F3ricamente a ser la salvaguarda de esa diversidad. Quiz=E1s por eso mismo es que se despliega un ah=EDnco feroz y mordaz para silenciarlos. =BFY la visi=F3n cr=EDtica y la reflexi=F3n? =BFO es que estamos ante los inicios de un r=E9gimen mundial con una pol=EDtica cultural predominantemente acr=EDtica, ciega y "light" afin con los prop=F3sitos del neoliberalismo? Ante el temor de que los desplantes y la brutalidad del r=E9gimen chileno puedan poner en peligro la suerte de Humberto Nilo, Rosario = Letelier y Ernesto Mu=F1oz, se inicia esta campa=F1a mundial de repudio a la censura y al ataque personal contra cualquier artista, = practique o no el arte correo, en cualquier lugar del planeta, solicitando al = mundo entero que env=EDen expresiones de apoyo solidario y rechazo = frontal hacia todo tipo de pol=EDtica discriminatoria en materia cultural, para que de alguna manera, sus ofensores no puedan llevar a cabo = sus amenazas impunemente. Send your messages to by post mail, fax and/or e-mail to: Comunicaciones v=EDa postal, fax y/o correo electr=F3nico a: Humberto Nilo Saavedra Calama 8435, La Cisterna, Santiago, CHILE tel. 5581888 hnilo@hotmail.com Presidente de la Rep=FAblica: Sr. Eduardo Frei Ruiz Tagle Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Palacio de la Moneda, Av. = Libertador Bernardo=20 O=B4=B4Higgins, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6387332 Email: webmaster@presidencia.cl Presidente de la C=E1mara de Diputados: Sr. Gutemberg Mart=EDnez Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n , Valpara= =EDso, Chile. Fax: 6874152 Email: mctoro@congreso.cl =F3/or lgonzale@congreso.cl = (secretarias de=20 Gabinetes) Presidente del Senado: Sr. Andr=E9s Zaldivar Larra=EDn Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n, Valpara= =EDso, Chile. Fax: 6326603=20 Email: gabinete@congreso.cl =F3/or presenst@congreso.cl = (secretarias de=20 Gabinetes)=20 Rector de la Universidad de Chile: Sr. Luis Riveros Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O= =B4Higgins 1058 Fax: 6781012 Email: lriveros@abello.dic.uchile.cl Ministro de Educaci=F3n: Sr. Jos=E9 Pablo Arellano Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O= =B4Higgins 1317, Santiago,=20 Chile. Fax: 6716164 Email: secremin@neruda.mineduc.cl Agencia UPI: Sr. Rodrigo Bustamante(editor) Direcci=F3n postal/ postal address: Nataniel 47, piso 9, Santiago, = Chile. Fax: 6986605 Agencia ORBE: Sra. Marisol Freire(editor) Direcci=F3n postal/ postal address: Phillips 56, oficina 66, = Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6396826 Clemente Pad=EDn http://www.postypographika.com/menu-en1/paraleng/parpadin/padinbio.h= tm http://www.concentric.net/~Lndb/padin/1cpcont.htm http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/padinl.htm http://www.artepostal.org.mx/artistas/padin.html http://www.ubuweg.com/vp/index3.html http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Caf=E9/1492/lit-tax.html http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/2721 http://www.abaforum.es/merzmail/lapoesia.htm Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Magdalena Zurawski Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" iS mR. sTROFFOLINO iN thE hOUSE? i hAD a rOCK & rOLL qUESTION. pLEASE bACKCHANNEL. tHANKS, mAGGIE Magdalena Zurawski Executive Development Programs Stern School of Business ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 17:14:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: In this empty space, this space of announcement, not enunciation, or catastrophic loss of _the body of the text,_ I would approach you, murmuring against all asides what is broken by you as _this_ is broken by you, what you bring together as _this_ is sutured against the will, the cut, the wound, the miracle of flesh bound by forgotten space which tells you nothing more than this is _it_ (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:44:19 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: (Looking for) Dodie and Kevin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm wondering if Dodie and Kevin have changed their e-mail address, or perhaps that my two e-mail messages never reached them? But of course, if anyone's just received the new SPT flyer, you can imagine, like me, how busy they are putting togther such a wonderful calendar of events! Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: get getting word MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing: The publication of _getting word_, poetry by exciting new poet Nicole Brodsky. getting word is the winner of the 1998 Michael Rubin Chapbook Award (judge, Carol Snow) administered by Fourteen Hills: The SFSU Review. Carol Snow writes: "For its moments of hilarity and moments of truth....For its grammar and usuage--'usage is both social and solitary'--so playfully in hand. For the formal invention of the original and more difficult longer sequences....Undeniable." Nicole Brodsky is a MFA candidate in poetry at SFSU where she also teaches composition and is a animal rights activist. getting word is a mere $7 (62 pages) and is available through Small Press Distribution in Berkeley or send a check payable to Fourteen Hills (indicate you want the book and not the magazine) to: Creative Writing Department SFSU 1600 Holloway San Francisco, CA 94132 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:01:59 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Feedback? Comments: cc: cap-l@virginia.edu, british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk, ECOMP-L@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU, ncte-talk@serv1.ncte.org, occ-l@hawaii.edu, ucc-l@taft.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Listees: This semester, I'll teach a course called Introduction to Poetry at my college, and I've created a web page -- my first --for my students. I haven't registered it yet with any search engines; I'd like some feedback first, if you feel so inclined. For example, I'd like to know if anyone has problems reading any of the sections of the page; if so, which sections? What browser do you use? What size screen? What appearance settings/video controller? And beyond the technical matters, what do you think of the approach? You can check it out at: http://idt.net/~daniel7 Thanks, Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:55:44 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: k and d MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry to use the list for this--but others may need to say this too-- Kevin and Dodie: your e-mail address seems to send mail back...this has happened several times this week. yrs, Todd Baron ps: ReMap work? On Love..? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:31:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: papers for 20th-century literature conference (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this wandered it way to poetics home office. anyone have any more info about this conf.? jk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: vanderborgs@garnet.cla.sc.edu Subject: papers for 20th-century literature conference Call for papers: Panel proposal at the 20th-Century Literature Conference at the University of Louisville, Feb. 25-25th 1999 "Transgressive Prediscoveries": Women Writing L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E This panel focuses on the question of whether there are common agendas or stylistic traits among the women poets associated with L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. It looks intensively at Susan Howe's description in The Birth-Mark of a writing of "prediscovery" that determines its own rules of transcription and interpretation. Please send a 250-300 word abstract and a brief CV to Susan Vanderborg: vanderborgs@garnet.cla.sc.edu or Susan Vanderborg Department of English University of South Carolina Columbia, SC 29208 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:09:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Byrd/common knowledge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Listees: Recently finished Don Byrd's provocative THE POETICS OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE in which he contends that most contemporary poetry is irrelevant because it has failed to address information theory (which was only meant to be used for computer engineering, if I'm not mistaken. I was wondering if I've missed any serious conversation or reviews on the book. If anyone has any response to the book, I'd like to hear from them. I never felt that "common knowledge" was particularly well defined in the book, but was intrigued by the idea of "information" replacing the role of "substance" in traditional philosophy. Also not clear to me was what Byrd thought the effect of information/communication theory should be on contemporary poetry. Reminded me faintly of Fish's essay on speech acts in IS THERE A TEXT IN THIS CLASS? which Fish says in most interesting because he chose a text that is directly concerned with "speech acts". The impact of such explorations on other texts seems relatively uncertain. One of the more confusing ideas in the book is just exactly how "interest" (which he opposes to "interpretation") creates meaning. Is it anyone else's opinion that the book merely raises questions or did I miss something? Thanks Standard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: under thirty and over 60 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may show up at the RIBOT conference with a picket sign, because I, as someone born in 67, seem to be stuck between generational identifiers. "Over 60 Under 30 (poets & visual artists from around the world, born before 1938 after 1968)" What is the purpose of organizing groups of writers based on age? The obvious missing links are always in the wrong place and the list of exceptions is longer than the likenesses exhibited by those of the same "generation" as Armand Schwerner once said, it seems that there is a turnover in poetry generations about every five years or so. It makes sense, I think, to identify poets of a particular place and time, or even of a specific time and no particular place. Or a particular place at any time. If we could narrow it to that, we could get pretty "exclusive" and that would allow us to say somethings. I have been reading Bill Luoma's book WORKS & DAYS and which is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED reading not only for its poetic "on-base percentage" but for what Eileen Myles describes in one of the best blurbs ever, as the "...expressing being alive in groups..." which is crucial, I think, for an understanding of what such group designations can mean. And he writes about San Diego in the 80s and New York in the 90s and it has meaning for me, even though I wasn't there. Anyhow- Bill's terms of the literary community, which involve personal mythologies born out of creative isolationism, transcend literary posturing. Or so it seems to me. Havign left Buffalo, I see how highly bureaucratic that lifestyle is/was, how it already presupposes the kinds of community that develop in spite of it. And there is community there, inspite of the fact that the community would be there even if the people werent... And that's my terribly blathering point, that what is the point of such generational designations. What is it that people are trying to learn about themselves that they need to be marketed in that "rent a beatnik" kind of way. What formal or social concerns determine how these groups get constituted. Obviously, if you live in New york, these questions are easier to answer. "We're the group that met at that bar every week." "We're the group the met at the church" etc. etc. but what does that mean? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:42:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: attack to artists... Comments: To: poetryetc@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Fw: Attack to artists Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 01:00:31 +0200 From: "H. Braumueller" Date: Tuesday, September 01, 1998 2:35 PM Subject: Attack to artists Dear friends: I am transmitting you this serious accusation of attack and censorship to the art and, in particular, to the mail art. The success of the campaign depends on you, it is say, it depend on the diffusion that you could give you to the communication (including thw wegsites) and of the expressions of rejection that you transmit to the addresses indicated to the end. Fraternal greetings. Estimado amigos: Estoy trasmitiendo a Uds. esta grave acusación de ataque y censura al arte y, en particular, al arte correo. El éxito de la campaña depende de Uds., es decir, depende de la difusión que Uds. le puedan dar al comunicado (incluyendo las páginas de internet) y de las expresiones de rechazo que Uds. trasmitan a las direcciones indicadas abajo. Saludos fraternos: CENSORSHIP AND ATTACK ON MAIL ART IN CHILE In response of the systematic and offensive political persecution and the intolerance that for various years have been going on at the University of Chile's Fine Art School (actions promoted and spurred by reactionary, totalitarian an pro Pinochet sectors) on March 98, the Mail Art Exhibit "Stop: liberty, diversity and pluralism" was held at the Santiago's Museum of Contemporary Art, in defense of the constant attacks by sectors in power. As a result, Humberto Nilo, the Director of the U. de Chile's Fine Art School and organizer of the event, was dismissed from his position along with the Museum's Director and the Curator of the exhibit: Mrs. Rosario Letelier and Mr. Ernesto Munioz. The brillant track records of the dismissed wich includes their strong defense of Human Rights during the chilean dictatorship; recuperating Guillermo Deisler memoirs, and hundreds of other artistic manifestation in defense of Human Rights and the dissemination of the best in Contemporary Art, were not taken into account. It is paradoxical, not to mention denigrating, that after 17 years of military dictatorship in Chile, and after reaching (as certain oficialist sectors proclaim) democratic and social harmony levels worthy of being emulated by the rest of the continent; we have to experience the sad spectacle in wich cultural spaces are closed through economic strangulation, harrassment and dismissal of distinguished artists, simply because they don't share the "official line" and open or covert censorship of critical manifestations on what's established and current. These cases, are not only attacks on people of proven professional and artistic excellence, they constitute a frontal attack on the principles that ground culture, in addition to being a crass outrage on the libertarian aspirations of an broad sector of the national and international artistic community. It is time we sponsor and stimulate the global coscience among all those artists who believe on the diversity and pluralism in art, to confront outrages such as that have just taken place in Chile. It has to be done now, since with the sophisticated strategies for manipulation and control, in the hands of the new inquisitioners of culture... tomorrow could be too late! The intolerance and desdain for cultural diversity are achieving strategic permanence in those places that have historically been destinated to protecting diversity. Perhaps that's why there's been a strong push to silence them. What about critical view and reflection? Or is it that we are facing the beginning of a world regime with a cultural policy that is predominently non-critical, blind and "light" aligned with the purposes of Neo-liberalism? Faced with the fear that the arrogance and brutality of the chilean regime could put in peril the future of Humberto Nilo, Rosario Letelier and Ernesto Munioz, we begin this World Campaign to repudiate censorship and personal attacks against any artist, regardless of whether he practices Mail Art, anywhere on the face of the Earth, requesting from everyone to send-in expressions of solidarity and rejection against all sorts of discriminatory policies on cultural matters, so that in some way, their offenders can't get away with their threats unscathed. CENSURA Y ATAQUE AL ARTE CORREO EN CHILE A raíz de las sistemáticas y ofensivas persecuciones políticas e intolerancia que por varios años se dan en la Facultad de Artes de la Universidad de Chile -acciones promovidas e incitadas por sectores reaccionarios, totalitaristas y Pinochetistas- se convocó y realizó el pasado marzo de 1998, la exposición de arte correo "STOP: libertad, diversidad y pluralismo", en defensa de los constantes ataques de estos sectores de poder, en el Museo de Arte Contemporáneo de Santiago. Como resultado de la misma, el Director de la Escuela de Bellas Artes de la Universidad de Chile, Humberto Nilo, organizador de la muestra, no sólo fue expulsado de su cargo, sino también, el Director y Curador del Museo que albergó la exposición la Sra. Rosario Letelier y el Sr. Ernesto Muñoz. De nada sirvieron las brillantes trayectorias de los expulsados ni su férrea defensa de los derechos humanos durante la dictadura chilena, incluyendo la recuperación de la memoria de Guillermo Deisler, el eterno exiliado, y cientos de otras manifestaciones artísticas en defensa de los derechos humanos y la difusión de lo mejor del arte contemporáneo. Resulta paradójico, por no decir denigrante, que después de 17 años de dictadura militar en Chile, y habiendo alcanzado -según lo pregonan ciertos sectores oficialistas- unos niveles de democracia y convivencia social dignos de emular en el resto del continente; tengamos que asistir al triste espectáculo de cierre de espacios culturales a través del estrangulamiento económico, el hostigamiento y despido de sus empleos de destacados artistas por no compartir con la línea oficial y la censura abierta o solapada de toda manifestación crítica sobre lo establecido y lo vigente. Estos casos no son sólo ataques a personas de probada excelencia profesional y artística, sino más bien constituyen un ataque frontal a los principios que cimientan la cultura, además de un craso atropello a las aspiraciones libertarias de un amplio sector de la comunidad artística tanto nacional como internacional. Es hora de fomentar e incentivar la conciencia mundial entre todos aquellos artistas que creemos en la diversidad y pluralidad del arte, para hacerle frente a atropellos como el que acaba de ocurrir en Chile. Y tiene que ser ahora, ya que con las sofisticadas estrategias de manipulación y control en manos de los nuevos inquisidores de la cultura... ¡mañana podría resultar demasiado tarde! La intolerancia y el desprecio por la diversidad cultural están entronizándose justamente en aquellos lugares destinados históricamente a ser la salvaguarda de esa diversidad. Quizás por eso mismo es que se despliega un ahínco feroz y mordaz para silenciarlos. ¿Y la visión crítica y la reflexión? ¿O es que estamos ante los inicios de un régimen mundial con una política cultural predominantemente acrítica, ciega y "light" afin con los propósitos del neoliberalismo? Ante el temor de que los desplantes y la brutalidad del régimen chileno puedan poner en peligro la suerte de Humberto Nilo, Rosario Letelier y Ernesto Muñoz, se inicia esta campaña mundial de repudio a la censura y al ataque personal contra cualquier artista, practique o no el arte correo, en cualquier lugar del planeta, solicitando al mundo entero que envíen expresiones de apoyo solidario y rechazo frontal hacia todo tipo de política discriminatoria en materia cultural, para que de alguna manera, sus ofensores no puedan llevar a cabo sus amenazas impunemente. Send your messages to by post mail, fax and/or e-mail to: Comunicaciones vía postal, fax y/o correo electrónico a: Humberto Nilo Saavedra Calama 8435, La Cisterna, Santiago, CHILE tel. 5581888 hnilo@hotmail.com Presidente de la República: Sr. Eduardo Frei Ruiz Tagle Dirección postal/postal address: Palacio de la Moneda, Av. Libertador Bernardo O´´Higgins, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6387332 Email: webmaster@presidencia.cl Presidente de la Cámara de Diputados: Sr. Gutemberg Martínez Dirección postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n , Valparaíso, Chile. Fax: 6874152 Email: mctoro@congreso.cl ó/or lgonzale@congreso.cl (secretarias de Gabinetes) Presidente del Senado: Sr. Andrés Zaldivar Larraín Dirección postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n, Valparaíso, Chile. Fax: 6326603 Email: gabinete@congreso.cl ó/or presenst@congreso.cl (secretarias de Gabinetes) Rector de la Universidad de Chile: Sr. Luis Riveros Dirección postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O´Higgins 1058 Fax: 6781012 Email: lriveros@abello.dic.uchile.cl Ministro de Educación: Sr. José Pablo Arellano Dirección postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O´Higgins 1317, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6716164 Email: secremin@neruda.mineduc.cl Agencia UPI: Sr. Rodrigo Bustamante(editor) Dirección postal/ postal address: Nataniel 47, piso 9, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6986605 Agencia ORBE: Sra. Marisol Freire(editor) Dirección postal/ postal address: Phillips 56, oficina 66, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6396826 Clemente Padín http://www.postypographika.com/menu-en1/paraleng/parpadin/padinbio.htm http://www.concentric.net/~Lndb/padin/1cpcont.htm http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/padinl.htm http://www.artepostal.org.mx/artistas/padin.html http://www.ubuweg.com/vp/index3.html http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Café/1492/lit-tax.html http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/2721 http://www.abaforum.es/merzmail/lapoesia.htm please send your cross ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Hans Braumüller Homepage: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/braumueller Cruzes del Mundo: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/7402/ Port of Mail Art: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/5392/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:51:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: under thirty and over 60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joel: weren't you a part of the place (less) place gathering in Buffalo this past year which asked for writers born after the sixth gallery reading? just curious. Erik Sweet (I don't know how I feel about these things anyhow) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: Byrd/common knowledge In-Reply-To: from "P.Standard Schaefer" at Sep 4, 98 12:09:36 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This book of Don Byrd's has always seemed woefully under-discussed to me, though Joe Amato and others here on Poetics cite from it regularly (see the opening chapter in Joe's _Bookends_ and elsewhere). By way of initial response, it seems important to underscore that DB's "information theory" is not limited to the academic phenomenon of that name during the late 1940s and 1950s (though Don's explication of the foundational texts and thinkers from this period is certainly the most subtle I've seen from a non-specialist). But for the broader implications of "information theory" and "statistical reality," see the passage begining on page 330, "Only those disciplines that study culture have been largely untouched by the cognitive science." And so forth. Matt > > Listees: > > Recently finished Don Byrd's provocative THE POETICS OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE in > which he contends that most contemporary poetry is irrelevant because it has > failed to address information theory (which was only meant to be used for > computer engineering, if I'm not mistaken. I was wondering if I've missed any > serious conversation or reviews on the book. If anyone has any response to > the book, I'd like to hear from them. I never felt that "common knowledge" > was particularly well defined in the book, but was intrigued by the idea of > "information" replacing the role of "substance" in traditional philosophy. > Also not clear to me was what Byrd thought the effect of > information/communication theory should be on contemporary poetry. Reminded > me faintly of Fish's essay on speech acts in IS THERE A TEXT IN THIS CLASS? > which Fish says in most interesting because he chose a text that is directly > concerned with "speech acts". The impact of such explorations on other texts > seems relatively uncertain. > > One of the more confusing ideas in the book is just exactly how "interest" > (which he opposes to "interpretation") creates meaning. > > Is it anyone else's opinion that the book merely raises questions or did I > miss something? > > Thanks > > Standard > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:29:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Texture Press's latest Comments: cc: smithnash@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Texture Chapbook #43 The Erratix & Other Stories by ELizabeth Treadwell 67 pp., $6 Texture Press PO Box 720157 Norman, OK 73072 "The House of Privacy: a woman is her own agressor, etched in gold, all pricey & vertiginous, she fell to the floor, forsaken repeating knock-knock (not entirely jokes but riddles). Landscapes in northern. She scrapes by, up into a mediocre tableaux. She suns there. In herself, the museum of dead sires. The hall of horrors with its Protocols, Cruelties, Desires, and Edged in Lace. Reminds one of ambiguous foreskins urgent in the portrait gallery, this hall of mirrors. Shivering in the spell of it. We tremble. No gossip lessons. And we ate oreos backstage." Dear Listers, my new book is out. Here's the info. Many thanks to Susan Smith Nash for bringing this work out. -- ET ps the quote is from the title story, genre a rock-mock. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:35:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Robert Creeley Reading at Naropa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Creeley will be giving a reading, Saturday, September 19, 1998 at The Naropa Institute, to benefit SEI (Students for Ethnic Inclusion); Performing Arts Center, 2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder, CO; $8/general and $/students, Naropa folks, seniors. For information, please call (303) 546 - 3508. Lisa Trank The Naropa Institute ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:45:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? -- Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:38:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Re: Sycamore Review, featuring... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and who are those some fiction folk? another interested fiction/prose folkee. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:31:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Frankly, I think Paul Vangelisti may be the most gifted editor of our time. Bringing together writers under 30 & over 60 strikes me as a *brilliant thought experiment*. Joel Kuszai is completely right about the arbitrariness of generational identifiers -- but, as Cage & MacLow demonstrate, the arbitrary can, under certain conditions/controls, be extraordinarily compelling. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 In-Reply-To: <6db5b046.35f03ff8@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I like the idea of the arbitrary as an editing principle. How about a conference/anthology of poets born on Sunday? Poets with an n as the third letter of their first names? poets with vestigial nipples? poets whose mothers had brown eyes? Poets born in towns and cities with no public transportation? Poets who play the slots? Poets with wheelbarrows in their sheds? Poets with gardens of phallic vegetables? Poets who often forget to button at least one button of their 501s? Poets who don't use sunscreen? Don't get me started. There's no end of brilliant possibilities. At 03:31 PM 9/4/98 EDT, you wrote: >Frankly, I think Paul Vangelisti may be the most gifted editor of our time. >Bringing together writers under 30 & over 60 strikes me as a *brilliant >thought experiment*. Joel Kuszai is completely right about the arbitrariness >of generational identifiers -- but, as Cage & MacLow demonstrate, the >arbitrary can, under certain conditions/controls, be extraordinarily >compelling. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:31:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Sycamore Review, featuring... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Lisa Trank wrote: > and who are those some fiction folk? > > another interested fiction/prose folkee. > One Doris Dorrie (cum umlaut), translated by Gustav A. Richar One Cynthia Clark One Alana Ryan One Jamey Hecht One Meeka Walsh One Ryan Alana One Clark Cynthia (the last six names are without umlauts). -Gabriel Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:31:03 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Kismet? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DUBLIN, Sept 4 (Reuters) - U.S. President Bill Clinton has been given a 250-to-one chance of shooting a hole-in-one when he completes his whirlwind tour of Ireland with a visit to golfing mecca Ballybunion on Saturday. And Paddy Power, Ireland's leading bookmaker, on Friday predicted Clinton would prove too weak for the three Irish golfing addicts who will accompany him, giving him the poorest chance of winning at eight-to-one. Club captain Brian McCarthy was expected to win ahead of Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy and former foreign minister Dick Spring, who will partner Clinton. Dick Spring? No.... ;~) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:55:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: -30 +60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit But Mark, what your examples fail to account for is that the arbitrariness of -30 +60 is not self-evident as are the examples you give. Vangelisti's juxtaposition is interesting both for what it might & might not disclose -- it might perhaps prove Kuszai's contention, not through assertion, but dramatically; or it may not deconstruct generational markers at all; in any case the particular inventiveness of V's idea is that he combines the traditionalist idea of anthology (+60) with the insurgent (-30). Unfortunately I myself don't qualify on either count, but then, I never felt I needed to be published in every issue of every magazine I ever liked. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: A post in ten parts for David (and his harem, too) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear David: 1. [initial digression: On my youthdy] Ah, werey youy in your youthdy an Englished bakkery and a stuudy? Bloody goody for youy, old chappy. I mostly proudly in my owny youthdy (for whaty it's worthy to youy, whichy I am startting to thinky may not be muchy), was a freighty-car mechanicy and a memmber of thee Hegel Upside Down Internationalist Brigade. This lasty was in Nicaraguay, for thee bulky of '83. In thee HUDIB --or BIHAR in Spanishy-- therey werey thirty oddy irony-lovingg poetys withy sorey necksys and numerosy ex-gigolosys from Argentiny to Tanzany. We atey monkesys and bugsys, took runny shiitys on flesh-eatings planteys, jackedd-offy in thee presencesy of thee cockatoosy, skirted aroundy Coontra paatrolsys every timey we coulddy, wroted poemseys about poor peoples in thee moony, and fromy our hammoocks strungy betweenn guava trreeseys, played a cut-throat gamey calledd Thee German Ideology. It was all quite romanticy, quaintly funnys, and oftened violenty!!! Aren't you impressedy? 2. [hats off!] I think you are a marvelous poet. And I think you are marvelously witty. And I mean that, really and really. 3. [four serious questions] Yet now may I ask you four serious questions, placing a question mark after each. a) David, do you remember that I asked you, in a most friendly way, if you would go for a ride with me? b) David, is that long and throbbing thing which dangles from your bellybutton a nerve? c) David, do old English studs always have such prominent and anxious bulge in bell-bottoms? d) David, could you please move back just a little bit on this camel whose name is Araby? (question mark shaped like shepherd's hook) 4. [dresden] Dresden, as it burned, they say, was beautiful from the Vickers [sic?]. Thousands of fires gathering in whooshes to become a single consuming one! I lay the aerial photo of your Khartoum location post flat on the floor, make motor-sounds, spread out my arms, bank, and see. 5. [see what?] Oh, see in horror what has become of my spired and melodious city! For in the shock of it, it all comes into view, as if I could see, with suddenness, in all directions and simultaneously! 6. [have you ever been to a flamenco bar?] Not at all to interrupt as an obvious joke, but have you ever been to a flamenco bar? 7. [the phenomena of my comeuppance, or: "so it goes: a bedtime story for my niece"] Oh, little crown of iron forged to likeness of a doctor's face, what are you doing in this circle of flaming studs and bakers? And little burnt dinner all set to be eaten (and crispy Frau so kindly invited to lick boot to boot), what are you doing near this shovel for dung-digging, hissing like ice-cubes in ruins of little museum? And little shell of bank on which flakes of assets fall, can't I still withdraw my bonds for baby? Good night moon. Good night socks and good night cuckoo clocks. Good night little bedpans and a trough where once there was an inn (urn of dashed pride), what are you doing beside little wheelbarrow beside some fried chickens? And you, ridiculous door-handles of the Arab's car, opening long, long tunnel for little toothless princess, why do you seem like sister-in-law going nowhere on little exercise bike? Good night barbells and Arbeiter's shoes under plastered ceilings of Grundschulen. Good night bladder of Helen Vendler and a jar from Tennessee. (though what are these doing here in Dresden?) Good night blackened parrot and some keys. Good night, good night. (And little mosque popped open like a can, which same as factory of flypaper has blown outward, covering the shape of man with it (with mosque): he stumbles up the Platz. What does it matter who is speaking, he murmurs and mutters, head a little bit on fire. Good night to you too.) Good night moon. Good night poor people who shall inherit the moon. Good night first editions of Das Kapital, Novum Organum, and How To Be A Success On Poetry Listservs. Good night nobody. Good night Mr. Kent, good night, for now you must soon wake up and rub your eyes and know that you are dead. 8. [hoping it is my bad dialect] David, it was a bit gauche of you to suggest you would cannibalize my wife after eating me, but that much I don't really mind-- everyone has a right to odd perversions, as long as such are consensual or safely fanciful. What does nag at me a great deal is the Motel 6 reference, which in the net of your proto-narrative seems to insinuate a tryst with my sister-in-law (whose maiden-name is not Garcia, but what, as you say, is in a name?). I read and read. Please assure me that it is only your bad English and that I am being too much the "Ideal reader" (for I, too, admittedly, have a long outie and am a paranoid). If you do not, then at the next Orono, when you reach out your hand and say, "Pleased to make your acquaintance," I shall take your hand, twist it 360 degrees, circle it about my head, place it very high behind your back, and swiftly kick your health-spa'd legs out from under you. This simple move, especially effective against overly pumped-up contricants, is called "Dancing with the Stud," and it was taught to me, actually, by a Cuban military advisor. At location (Orono) of lonely and looking-about poets, it shall be hand-clapping time! 9. [your copyright permission, please] Also, I wanted to mention that three magazines and three web-sites have written unbidden to ask if they can reprint "Khartoum Translation Conference," i.e. the one that somehow threw you into your snit of incendiary-jelly spurt. I think one of the magazines (the one that makes people really, really angry by printing posts without permission) may be interested in running our whole exchange, beginning with your "brainwashed sudanese poet" up to wherever this goes (for I don't doubt that you will come roaring back like the stock-market, and I will even let you have the last word!). Please excuse all the bad-writing parentheses, exclamations, etc., but could you post me back-channel on the above possibility or otherwise write an elliptical bombing poem to the List in reply? Thank you, David! 10. [a cross-cultural saying] All best to you, then. And as we used to gayly say in the German Ideology game (with apologies here also for missing accent and inverted question mark): "Es este el sombrero, camarada, que se le cayo de la cabeza?" Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques I agree completely. It has continued to strike me that many, many poets do write in a context of their own period of age; we do represent the concerns of our period, and everyone is influence highly by the time in which they come of age. Of course this isn't EVERYTHING, and there are wonderful and enormous exceptions (think of the continual experimentation of Barbara Guest, for example [ of course this presumes wrongly that older poets no longer experiment]). But generations to represent something. And I think, moreover, that Paul was brilliant to put younger poets and so-called "older" poets side by side. Are there substantial differences, are the concerns generational? You'll have to read RIBOT, I guess, and find out. But how can you even begin to answer these questions (which I think, if they are not terribly important are always very interesting) if you don't explore something like this. RIBOT has done many a general issue; this is a particular issue to explore a fascinating concern. Douglas Messerli Jacques Debrot wrote: > > Frankly, I think Paul Vangelisti may be the most gifted editor of our time. > Bringing together writers under 30 & over 60 strikes me as a *brilliant > thought experiment*. Joel Kuszai is completely right about the arbitrariness > of generational identifiers -- but, as Cage & MacLow demonstrate, the > arbitrary can, under certain conditions/controls, be extraordinarily > compelling. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:24:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Re: Sycamore Review, featuring... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thank you and thank you for the umlauts Lisa Trank (who might at one time considered umlauts) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:27:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: -30 +60 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In response to Jacques point, I'd like to add that I don't think it arbitrary exactly, but is produced from neccessity. Paul told me that he'd been getting lots and lots of submissions from young unknowns and that he'd like to show case them, but as publishing these sorts of magazines is never economically viable, he felt he should keep a core of well-known writers. How to drop Norma Cole for Leslie Scalapino (both are regular contributors) so you can include Gwyn McVay, Emily Grossman, Tracy Grinnel (under 30 and whose contributions are excellent) becomes a tricky matter. Since Paul funds the magazine out of his own pocket and has for years on a very limited budget, he has to sell some magazines to keep this thing afloat. Rather than merely choose one friend or long time contributor over another, he was able to keep the Waldrops, Baraka, Rakosi, and include space for the up and comers. Now, whether such a strategy pays off in terms of sales, I sorta doubt. But, Baraka (Funklore from Littoral Books was the all time biggest selling book that Consortium Distributors ever carried) definitely helps keep the attention of distributors and mean the books get out there. I have to say that since I've seen the issue in galleys, no one will be surprised at what Baraka does or Rakosi, but they might be surprised to see that there are surface differences between the geezers and the young lions. The geezers are by far more sparing in their use of language. Also sort of interesting is how many more women are there as young lionesses and how many more men are there as geezers. But the best thing about this issue as with every issue of Ribot is the international scope. Mohamed Dibb is there, Emilio Pagliarani, and a number of young Italians who have never been translated before, some young Mexicans translated by Rick Gilbert, just lots of really interesting combination that defy almost any classification schema. By the way, just got the new Chain in the mail with the pro forma plea for contributions and subscriptions so I just want to take a moment and say how important it is to BUY the magazines that you like rather than just expect them to run your work because you are so brilliant. When things like Chain and Ribot and Arshile and so on go under, there will be no one to present your genius to the world. The new Chain is sleak and handsome as usual and the next one's theme of Letters sounds really intriguing. As usual, it promises to introduce me to lots of writers I might never have come across. We need to support the magazines with themes (however arbitrary) and those without (however overdetermined they may still be). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:25:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poet bodybuilders. A rather large group, I've found. Mark Weiss wrote: > I like the idea of the arbitrary as an editing principle. How about a > conference/anthology of poets born on Sunday? Poets with an n as the third > letter of their first names? poets with vestigial nipples? poets whose > mothers had brown eyes? Poets born in towns and cities with no public > transportation? Poets who play the slots? Poets with wheelbarrows in their > sheds? Poets with gardens of phallic vegetables? Poets who often forget to > button at least one button of their 501s? Poets who don't use sunscreen? > Don't get me started. There's no end of brilliant possibilities. > > At 03:31 PM 9/4/98 EDT, you wrote: > >Frankly, I think Paul Vangelisti may be the most gifted editor of our time. > >Bringing together writers under 30 & over 60 strikes me as a *brilliant > >thought experiment*. Joel Kuszai is completely right about the arbitrariness > >of generational identifiers -- but, as Cage & MacLow demonstrate, the > >arbitrary can, under certain conditions/controls, be extraordinarily > >compelling. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:14:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 Comments: To: kkel736@BAYAREA.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit kkel736@BAYAREA.NET writes: >Poet bodybuilders. A rather large group, I've found. Erk! Erk! But it reminds me of a poem by Charles Bukowski, in which he suddenly realizes that in the time he has spent pumping iron he could have read the complete works of Balzac - so he abruptly cancels his membership. Going "nomail" for 3 weeks owing to an unrefusable offer! dwm "In the excitement of meeting a man who had read Shakespeare he had momentarily forgotten everything else." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:47:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: under thirty and over 60 In-Reply-To: <35F068EA.586B26D6@bayarea.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, we're a buff crowd. At 03:25 PM 9/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >Poet bodybuilders. A rather large group, I've found. > >Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I like the idea of the arbitrary as an editing principle. How about a >> conference/anthology of poets born on Sunday? Poets with an n as the third >> letter of their first names? poets with vestigial nipples? poets whose >> mothers had brown eyes? Poets born in towns and cities with no public >> transportation? Poets who play the slots? Poets with wheelbarrows in their >> sheds? Poets with gardens of phallic vegetables? Poets who often forget to >> button at least one button of their 501s? Poets who don't use sunscreen? >> Don't get me started. There's no end of brilliant possibilities. >> >> At 03:31 PM 9/4/98 EDT, you wrote: >> >Frankly, I think Paul Vangelisti may be the most gifted editor of our time. >> >Bringing together writers under 30 & over 60 strikes me as a *brilliant >> >thought experiment*. Joel Kuszai is completely right about the arbitrariness >> >of generational identifiers -- but, as Cage & MacLow demonstrate, the >> >arbitrary can, under certain conditions/controls, be extraordinarily >> >compelling. >> > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Byrd/common knowledge Comments: To: Matt Kirschenbaum In-Reply-To: <199809041651.MAA00160@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Way back when (well, spring 1995) WITZ featured two reviews of the Byrd book, one by Robert Grenier and the other by Chris Stroffolino. I have put the reviews on the WITZ ON THE WEB site, if anyone is interested. http://www.litpress.com/witz --Chris Reiner > > > > Listees: > > > > Recently finished Don Byrd's provocative THE POETICS OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE in > > which he contends that most contemporary poetry is irrelevant because it has > > failed to address information theory (which was only meant to be used for > > computer engineering, if I'm not mistaken. I was wondering if I've missed any > > serious conversation or reviews on the book. If anyone has any response to ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:14:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: papers for 20th-century literature conference (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've always heard great things about this conference (annual or semi-annual, I think). I always thought it was Alan Golding who ran it, but perhaps things have changed. It sounds like an intersting topic, and complimentary to the conference here at San Diego that's taking place this coming March. (More on this later). Stephen >this wandered it way to poetics home office. anyone have any more info >about this conf.? >jk > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: vanderborgs@garnet.cla.sc.edu >Subject: papers for 20th-century literature conference > >Call for papers: > >Panel proposal at the 20th-Century Literature Conference at the >University of Louisville, Feb. 25-25th 1999 > >"Transgressive Prediscoveries": Women Writing L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E > >This panel focuses on the question of whether there are common >agendas or stylistic traits among the women poets associated with >L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. It looks intensively at Susan Howe's >description in The Birth-Mark of a writing of "prediscovery" that >determines its own rules of transcription and interpretation. > >Please send a 250-300 word abstract and a brief CV to Susan >Vanderborg: > >vanderborgs@garnet.cla.sc.edu > >or >Susan Vanderborg >Department of English >University of South Carolina >Columbia, SC 29208 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:53:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: Re: Byrd/common knowledge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Standard read it about 1-2 years ago, so it's not too fresh in the head, but i saw it generally as an attack on gratuitous abstraction, a call for a return to the local, to words instead of "language", to combinations instead of differences / i too had trouble, still do, defining the common knowledge, though i think part of the book's appeal is that it resides so compellingly poised on the edge of that definition -- at one point he writes something about the current age coming to definition (soon?) in a present with a new name -- a rough paraphrase -- which to me is part of the problem: we're left teetering... / and of course, avoiding the definition of a new paradigm, of paradigmatic thought in general, is one of its central ploys / one sentence early on had me sold, though: "Poetry is made from sounds and marks, but, paradoxically, *not* language..." bill At 12:09 PM 9/4/98 EDT, you wrote: >Listees: > >Recently finished Don Byrd's provocative THE POETICS OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE in >which he contends that most contemporary poetry is irrelevant because it has >failed to address information theory (which was only meant to be used for >computer engineering, if I'm not mistaken. I was wondering if I've missed any >serious conversation or reviews on the book. If anyone has any response to >the book, I'd like to hear from them. I never felt that "common knowledge" >was particularly well defined in the book, but was intrigued by the idea of >"information" replacing the role of "substance" in traditional philosophy. >Also not clear to me was what Byrd thought the effect of >information/communication theory should be on contemporary poetry. Reminded >me faintly of Fish's essay on speech acts in IS THERE A TEXT IN THIS CLASS? >which Fish says in most interesting because he chose a text that is directly >concerned with "speech acts". The impact of such explorations on other texts >seems relatively uncertain. > >One of the more confusing ideas in the book is just exactly how "interest" >(which he opposes to "interpretation") creates meaning. > >Is it anyone else's opinion that the book merely raises questions or did I >miss something? > >Thanks > >Standard > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PaperBrainPress http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:26:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: Re: question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/4/98 11:39:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, poproj@ARTOMATIC.COM writes: << I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? -- Anselm Berrigan >> I heard a report and discussion on this on NPR. I questioned the correlation- as- causation presumption that was put forward, and believe that a caller indicated the same. Seems that more needs to be done with area of exploration. Findings were mystifying as reported. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 21:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re : 10 pieces for me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kent, let me lapse into perfect english in the hope of avoiding misunderstandings, although no doubt at the sacrifice of anything poetic. I meant to imply nothing of the sort concerning your sister-in-law. I meant no personal relation of Motel jokes to myself : it's standard-issue comic material, the human dong. I never worked in a bakery : that was suggested by the popping-up of the word "tarts" in the word-salad the persona of Davood offered. In fact little of it was personal, although it is true that your relative and I have spoken, fondly, of you, during our exercise-hour. Your account of your time in Central America makes it sound like tough fun, assuming it _is_ personal material. The difficult passages in my life are nothing so noteworthy nor laudable, and I must cede the victory to you. I'm not sure where the competitive edge came from--it's certainly in your tone and I take it you are responding to something in mine, of which I stay unaware. As I expect you know, distorted texts such as we have been exchanging cause all kinds of ping-ponging signification to go on behind the surface, which is at once their pleasure and their pain. They can make one paranoid, although I felt little of that with your latest, thanks to its plain-spokenness. There is a certain right-minded quality to your communications that I'd sooner not spend time on; it's not my fault you don't have an endowed chair at Harvard; the Holier-Than-Thou Chair perhaps would have done nicely. Your bully-boy braggadoccio is thin in humor, also. Please, you are free to publish your Khartoum letter/s, which btw I found hilarious--thanks for them. I don't think I want anything of mine to leave the List for further publication just now, though. It's been fun, but I doubt it can continue to be. I would sooner have sent this back-channel, but your post required a front-channel response, I think. David PS I'm sorry I was unable to come up with a blurb for your book about being a Japanese poet. I hope this lack of a response which I did not in the first place offer, and certainly had not promised, has not caused some emotional festering in your heart. But I am at a loss to account for the gratuitous offensiveness in your latest post. Shall I return the book you were kind enough to send? D. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:24:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re : Anselm B's question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anselm, there was discussion on the List lately of a report carried by some newspapers, that found a positive correlation between time spent on the Net, and depression. As I recall, however, the article did not say whether those sampled had been depressed before they went on-line, nor, if so, that their depression was now less, greater or about the same. The social scientists said they were surprised : they had anticipated that the opposite would be the case, i.e., that depression would be ameliorated by e-mail, etc. As would I have. These results made the resaerchers posit some causes, and I think one suggestion was, that the increased company, not being tangible, or even visible,--that the virtuality of all this proved an irritant, finally, and a thoroughly depressing one at that. "The hungry sheep look up and are not fed." This proving the case, not much left to do but disconnect and go sit in cafes with notebook and pen, or try line-dancing. Back to Square One. Other Listafarians will no doubt have their own takes on this topic. Hope all's well, Anselm. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 01:27:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Re : Anselm B's question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One take on this is the ongoing discussion on the Research list among people who have pioneered in IAD studies; they find the study flawed to a great degree, without controls, with a slewed demographics, etc. I also think they might be jealous that _this_ study got all the atten- tion, while similar one's didn't. It does seem to me to be true by and large, but it has a lot to do with user's expectations. When I've taught I have found people thinking the Net would be a lot easier than it is, that the interactivity would be simpli- fied, that it would be easy to meet people online, that it would be a kinder place than it is, that it would automatically bring people toge- ther, that it would be fun, that the software would be simple to set up, that the ISP software in particular would go in easily, and so forth and so on. And all these things then confound people who might be uncomforta- ble with the computer in the first place. As far as I know the study didn't take into account who had or hadn't used computers before, things like that. It makes a difference. One final issue by the way is the sheer volume of information - beginning users tend to keep every email they get (I know someone with 8000 files of it and someone else who has had up to 5000 messages in the inbox) - and then become extremely depressed when they discover it's all useless, impossible to read, almost impossible to catalog. Or someone looking, say, for articles on Japan, entering Japan in say Alta Vista and coming up with several hundred thousand replies... Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 23:27:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" who payed for this survey billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 01:05:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: <199809041839.OAA28196@bart.artomatic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" >communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression >among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? >-- Anselm Berrigan I dont want to talk about it, okay? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 18:02:17 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: TOLSTOY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit does anyone know which volume of Tolstoy's work might have the short story "After the ball" in it? thanks-- Todd Baron (reMap) ps: Thank-you all for work for ReMap #7. THe deadline of Sept. 1st has arrived and gone. #8 has no deadline nor theme as yet. If anyone contacted me about sending work and I replied--please still send it. Others, are thanked considerably. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:06:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: -30 +60 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:27:50 EDT from Hey when's somebody gonna cover the over-100 crowd? We're one spunky bunch [hack--spittooey--] - Henry "Gramps" Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:23:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As I remember it was some major info/techno companies who were hoping that the study would indicate just the opposite of what it did. I also seem to remember that the study indicated a 1 percent increase on the depression axis and a four/tenths of 1 percent increase on the alienation axis. The researchers claim that these results are statistically significant. They may be, but they don't seem earthshaking especially given what appear to be the many faults of the study discussed here. GIGO! shit in, shit out. tears, Steven On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Billy Little wrote: > who payed for this survey > > billy little > 4 song st. > nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > > ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! > Are they unhappy, by the way? > > Alice James > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:51:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Byrd/common knowledge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanx to matt for mentioning my book... indeed i studied with don, so it's difficult to be objective (if that's what i'm supposed to be)... but w/o trying to cozy up to the guy (b/c he's someone i care for lots---but there i go!), and simple as i can say it, don's book is one of the very few that attempts to map the contours of late 20th century north american thought and culture through the lens of poetic urgencies and insurgencies (and not the other way 'round)... his syntax is occasionally difficult, his theorizing often seems (seams) stream(s) of consciousness... but if you can get with the flows, it's a most rewarding excursion... if he doesn't manage to address ideological realities to everyone's satisfaction, he does at the same time offer a critique of technology, information technologies in particular, that works the human-writing (or more broadly, making) interfaces... there are answers in the book, in short, or directions, but the provocation is such that there are no easy answers/directions... i see them in general, and i trust this is not too abstruse, as having to do with (re)covering the full measure of the finite (as opposed to the infinite)... which as don would have it, as i read him, is less a matter of epistemology than of ecology, less a matter of metaphysics than of physics... yes, a certain utilitarian drift in don's prompts---but then, this is also a mark of our age, no?... well anyway, so i (would) think, like to or not... the concluding few pages of the book are, in my view, breathtaking... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:25:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Fwd: digest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Delivered-To: lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu >Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 05:59:12 -0400 >From: Peter Ganick >Organization: @Home Network >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-AtHome0402 (Win95; U) >To: lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu >Subject: digest > >hi loss... > >it might be my own email, but the digest didn't come >today again -- and when i sent a 'review poetics' command >to the listserv address, nothing came back... > >any ideas?... > >thanks... > >out... >peter > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:36:36 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Seeking Stroffolino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Stroffolino: Can't seem to get through to your e-mail, buddy. Would you kindly backchannel me? Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:07:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poproj wrote: > I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" > communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression > among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? > -- Anselm Berrigan One can say anything with statistics -- that's the joy and uselessness of them. It's rarely useful, I've found, to discuss depression in such terms anyhow. Reminds me of the psych. nurse, years ago, who told me to put on some makeup and go to my activities so I wouldn't feel suicidal. Great book, by the way, on depression is William Styron's Darkness Visible. And it's about the length one can stand to read when moderately depressed. Laura -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 14:06:24 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Don Byrd's The Poetics of The Common Knowledge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I've posted before, I finished Don Byrd's The Poetics of The Common Knowledge and was impressed by it on a number of levels. I always welcome intellectual histories as informed, energetic and original as the one that occupies the first couple of hundred pages. I disagree with Byrd's idea that feedback and its attendant scientific and technological applications erase old philosophical paradoxes and inconsistencies and point toward a new epistemology, hermeneutics and poetry. But his arguments concerning such matters that arise out of the work done by Maturana, Verala, Prigogine, Bateson, Wiener et al are compelling and have made me rethink and, I hope, refine a number of my positions. As though this isn't enough reward for reading the book, Byrd squarely places the sciences (artificial intelligence, cognitive science, particle physics, chaos theory etc. etc.)at the center of discourse--"The Common Knowlege"--where they most obviously are and this includes poetic discourse. Joe Amato's observation seems indisputable: there is a utile (to borrow David Jones' term) import to Byrd's book that draws on the authority of the sciences. As far as I'm concerned, given the squishy self-indulgence of the New Georgians, the intentional and (f)utile hermeticism and critical dependency of langpo, and the not-good-enough-for-prime-time performance poets et al, this is all to the good for poetry. Byrd's plan, far from being eclectic, is focussed and concrete and a great jumping off text for any further discussion that, wants to connect (and I mean really connect) with current conditions.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:10:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not the least of these faults is that for those percentage differences to be statistically significant the study population would have had to be enormous. At 11:23 AM 9/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >As I remember it was some major info/techno companies who were hoping that >the study would indicate just the opposite of what it did. I also seem to >remember that the study indicated a 1 percent increase on the depression >axis and a four/tenths of 1 percent increase on the alienation axis. The >researchers claim that these results are statistically significant. They >may be, but they don't seem earthshaking especially given what appear to >be the many faults of the study discussed here. GIGO! shit in, shit out. > >tears, >Steven > > >On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Billy Little wrote: > >> who payed for this survey >> >> billy little >> 4 song st. >> nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 >> >> ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! >> Are they unhappy, by the way? >> >> Alice James >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 13:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Re : Anselm B's question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would agree that what might be measured by the study is disappointment of heightened expectations. If this were true of only 10% of the participants it would skew the results. If one were to survey (and I think the study was a survey rather than a study although the media tends not to make fine distinctionns) poetry readers vs. non-readers and 10% of the readers started in the expectation of receiving pleasure (an interesting question in itself) they would be disappointed and the survey would then "show" that reading poetry "causes" depression. This may be the case? tom bell A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > It does seem to me to be true by and large, but it has a lot to do with > user's expectations. When I've taught I have found people thinking the Net > would be a lot easier than it is, that the interactivity would be simpli- > fied, that it would be easy to meet people online, that it would be a > kinder place than it is, that it would automatically bring people toge- > ther, that it would be fun, that the software would be simple to set up, > that the ISP software in particular would go in easily, and so forth and > so on. And all these things then confound people who might be uncomforta- > ble with the computer in the first place. As far as I know the study > didn't take into account who had or hadn't used computers before, things > like that. It makes a difference. One final issue by the way is the sheer > volume of information - beginning users tend to keep every email they get > (I know someone with 8000 files of it and someone else who has had up to > 5000 messages in the inbox) - and then become extremely depressed when > they discover it's all useless, impossible to read, almost impossible to > catalog. Or someone looking, say, for articles on Japan, entering Japan in > say Alta Vista and coming up with several hundred thousand replies... > > Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:31:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: New York readings? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll be in New York 23-27 September & wondered what readings are going on then. I won't have evenings free, but there're still weekend afternoon reading series, right? Evenings on the 24th to 26th, at least, I'll be at Suspended Music, concerts by Deep Listening Band (Pauline Oliverso, Stuart Dempster * David Gamper) & Ellen Fullman's Long String Instrument (100 feet long) in the Low Library building of the Columbia U campus. (The concerts are FREE & should be very good - stop by & say hi). (& as long I've got your attention, just put up this morning on Antenna Radio, my feature program on John Cage. None of his poetry, but lots of music. The show is Mappings at .) Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:59:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Robert Creeley Reading at Naropa Content-Type: text/plain Lisa What time does the reading start? -Mark DuCharme Lisa Trank wrote >Robert Creeley will be giving a reading, Saturday, September 19, 1998 at >The Naropa Institute, to benefit SEI (Students for Ethnic Inclusion); >Performing Arts Center, 2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder, CO; $8/general and >$/students, Naropa folks, seniors. For information, please call (303) 546 >- 3508. > > >Lisa Trank >The Naropa Institute > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:00:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: ANSELM B's QUESTION In-Reply-To: <199809041839.OAA28196@bart.artomatic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Do you mean verify this personally? Like "Yeah, I WANNA TESTIFY WHAT THE Listserv's DONE TO ME"? If so, I wonder if anyone can verify the study that links "poetry scenes" to increased feelings of social isolation & major depressions among folks already suffering from said feelings ? chris s. On Fri, 4 Sep 1998, Poproj wrote: > I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" > communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression > among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? > -- Anselm Berrigan > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, don't know about ya'all but, when feeling suicidal, I feel suicidal through makeup, activities and reading the posts on the poetics list. Which is to say that these communications, while at times game-like and fun, could ever for me equal lying on my best friend's bed or my neighbor ringing my bell. Laura E. Wright wrote: > > Poproj wrote: > > > I've been informed today that a study has linked listservs & "virtual" > > communities to increased feelings of social isolation & major depression > > among folks already suffering from said feelings. Can anyone verify this? > > -- Anselm Berrigan > > One can say anything with statistics -- that's the joy and uselessness of > them. It's rarely useful, I've found, to discuss depression in such terms > anyhow. Reminds me of the psych. nurse, years ago, who told me to put on > some makeup and go to my activities so I wouldn't feel suicidal. > > Great book, by the way, on depression is William Styron's Darkness Visible. > And it's about the length one can stand to read when moderately depressed. > > Laura > > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * > "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 18:03:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: TOLSTOY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's in Six Short Masterpieces by Tolstoy -- which appears to be out of print but might be findable in a library. There's also a Norton edition of Tolstoy's Short Stories (edited by Michael Katz) that _is_ in print. Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > does anyone know which volume of Tolstoy's work might have the short > story > "After the ball" in it? > > thanks-- > > Todd Baron > (reMap) > > ps: Thank-you all for work for ReMap #7. THe deadline of Sept. 1st has > arrived and gone. #8 has no deadline nor theme as yet. If anyone > contacted me about sending work and I replied--please still send it. > Others, are thanked considerably. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tabby Nackle Subject: CAL FIRM TO TEST SUICIDE MACHINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CALIFORNIA FIRM TO TEST SUICIDE MACHINE by B.P. Jackson and James R. "Tabby" Nackle San Diego (MP) -- Announcing plans to seek beta sites for testing of a new "bio-psych" technology to be mass-marketed over the Internet, a California firm unveiled it's much ballyhooed "Execu-Will" suicide kit. Leading computer advocates and local business leaders hailed the announcement by MindMites of La Jolla as exemplary of the effects of "hot money" on a region such as Southern California, where there are numerous bio-psych companies. Critics criticized bio-psych as simply new economic terrain created by the commodification of 1970s "biofeedback" techniques. They claimed MindMites was only cashing in on what amounted to natural, holistic processes, and vowed that they would fight Execu-Will by offering their own suicide kit over the Internet for free. "We hope to drive them out of business by making what they hope to sell freely available," said Giovanni Troubadour, a spokesman for the group "Anti BioPsych Alliance." Execu-Will works through a series of mediated suggestions which are supposed to be taken literally, according to company insiders who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "It works on the presumption that if you read something, experience something, have a thought even, that those things are to be regarded as true," the insider said. "Execu-Will," the source continued, "regards that belief is the most important tool is modifying human behavior and physiological functioning." Through a complex series of thought patterns and "throught-driven" modifications (heart rate, for instance) different "goals" can be achieved. The goals of the Execu-Will suicide machine are obvious: slowing of the heart rate to brain death, whereupon all other functioning eventually ceases. However, to allieviate the tendency towards self-preservation, the "machine's" bio-psych functioning works to "execute the will," (i.e. the "will to live"). For reasons which remain unclear, "fear" is the only anticipated ingredient to have been left out of the Execu-Will package. It is widely believed that many companies are rushing to develop and patent different bio-psych combinations of thought patterns, and most experts had believed that fear would be a major factor in the product announced today. Fear has always been the most widely used bio-psych tool. The hope of bio-psych firms is that new fear-based products will lead to an explosion of new weapons technologies. Long in prototype, the Execu-Will suicide machine had been anticipated for over a year. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 04:51:59 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: TOLSTOY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura E. Wright wrote: > > It's in Six Short Masterpieces by Tolstoy -- which appears to be out of > print but might be findable in a library. There's also a Norton edition > of Tolstoy's Short Stories (edited by Michael Katz) that _is_ in print. > > Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > > > does anyone know which volume of Tolstoy's work might have the short > > story > > "After the ball" in it? > > > > thanks-- > > > > Todd Baron > > (reMap) > > > > ps: Thank-you all for work for ReMap #7. THe deadline of Sept. 1st has > > arrived and gone. #8 has no deadline nor theme as yet. If anyone > > contacted me about sending work and I replied--please still send it. > > Others, are thanked considerably. > > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > Laura: thank-you so much! It's a wondrous story and--yr right--the frickin' thing (O) is out of print in that edition--but I got it--so thanks so very, Todd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:09:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Charles Bernstein Subject: QUERIES (CB and DS) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:12:38 -0400 > From: louis stroffolino > > Does anybody here know what Bernstein poem (i think it's at least > 9 years old) that has some line (or sentiment) to the effect of > "Hey, I'm glad I didn't live any longer, because if I would have > I would have had to spend more money?" > (this is a TOTAL paraphrase, from flimsy memory.... > I probably have the TONE totally wrong, and maybe even the > MEANING). Any help would be appreciated? Thanks **** "Debris of Shock/Shock of Debris" in _Dark City_: "If I'd have lived longer, I'd have lost even more money." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:12:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Charles B's poem : one response Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" After Bernstein There's a price we shall pay for remaining above ground. Just like we flew to Florida, it's gonna cost. "Desirable beachfront hotel or condo"-- that's what your life must amount to, now. You wanna poke your head up outa the earth, like some prairie dog? Like some living dead? Some insistent zombie? Okay let's see plastic on that. Full occupancy ensures rates stay high. You could be buried in one of many mass graves. Sprinkled with lime. Out of the future action. But (somehow--some secretary's social gaffe) here you are. So, whaddya got to say for yourself, Mr/Ms Living Tissue, huh? You're eminently replaceable. So far. We're barely waiting. The mere factoid of you, The Creation, palls fast. Those appurtenances--all of them--we can replace, & will. That pilgrim soul stacks up in warehouses globally. Our inventory embarrasses. So give it what you got plus, 'cause we aren't in Kansas any more, no, nor New York. Hey! Your atoms persist-- whyntya just check out? Space is at a premium, and evolution's draft picks were published yesterday. Godknows you're beautiful, lovely, talented, gifted, subjectively marvelous : but God quit the board in a snit. Hike it higher. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Deserted Channel Island chain regains Union Jack PARIS (Reuters) - British honor was restored Thursday when invaders from the non-existent kingdom of Patagonia handed back a flag seized five days earlier from the most southerly outpost of the British isles. However French eccentric Jean Raspail, self-proclaimed consul general of Patagonia, warned that his marines would swing back into action early in the next century and once again stake claim to the deseerted Minquiers archipelago in the Channel. "Every so often the Kingdom of Patagonia needs some territory," Raspail said after handing back a slightly tattered Union Jack flag to the British Embassy. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555873536-ce3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 22:22:33 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Charles B's poem : one response MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > After Bernstein > > There's a price > we shall pay Specieees being has been downraded to a tropical depression, a correction to too high prices dearly puchased from a last fire sale, 'cause god gave Noah the rainbow sign To the Haitian knuckler-baller escaping from bad derivatives on the coast-guard cutter signing a contract with majordomo leagues 20 thousand, thousand under the sea. But he played both ways, offense and defense, so he signed a contract with an agent who didn't know the margins paid Or the prices of moving expenses for living too long and not using the escape clause to be, that is needs be the freee angent. mc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 19:35:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Franklin Bruno Subject: under thirty over sixty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes to the below. I was going to write to Joel about this backchannel, but--after discussing the plans for the conference w/ Paul and Standard and Guy Bennett, it's looking very clear that questioning the point of generational divisions is going to have as much to with the discussion as preserving them; even if the magazine doesn't 'deconstruct generational markers' in the end, I'll bet the conference will. So, Joel, bring your picket sign; having a problem with the terms of the discussion is a better reason to come than it is a reason not to. (Also--you can do a Meow display at the book party.) And I second the recommendation of Bill Luoma's book. There's some mystery of technique here--when I write anything with friends' names in it, it falls flat, but this isn't the case in Works & Days. And I don't entirely think it's because some of the 'characters' are poets I've read, either. I once read a comment to the effect that Frank O'Hara's poems have -helped- make all those people famous. > >fjb > >Jacques Debrot wrote: > >>But Mark, what your examples fail to account for is that the arbitrariness of >>-30 +60 is not self-evident as are the examples you give. Vangelisti's >>juxtaposition is interesting both for what it might & might not disclose -- it >>might perhaps prove Kuszai's contention, not through assertion, but >>dramatically; or it may not deconstruct generational markers at all; in any >>case the particular inventiveness of V's idea is that he combines the >>traditionalist idea of anthology (+60) with the insurgent (-30). >>Unfortunately I myself don't qualify on either count, but then, I never felt >>I needed to be published in every issue of every magazine I ever liked. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 03:29:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Some Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Some Europe Why do the French, for example, Julia Kristeva and the chatterings asso- ciated with the chora and ruptures, or Jean-Jacques Lecercle and delirium, then take Gilles Deleuze on non-sense or Catherine Clement on rapture, or the opening of Anti-Oedipus or practically the w/hole of Libidinal Econo- my, then there's the latent hysteria in The Story of the Eye, I mean why do the French - and this becomes something for the English or the Ameri- cans - some sort of escape into the preconception of depth where no one treads - there's always the unconscious - good etiquette keeps it down as does the internal evidence of the text - for example foreclosing or fire- walls around what constitutes sense - reading the endless descriptions in P.D. James for example - there is a sort of rectitude of class everywhere present in this thinking and I'd say even in for example the performative which becomes clear-cut and no wonder everyone gets upset with Derrida spilling ink all over the margins; of course Huntington's been taken apart for his climatological theories of civilization, so we've got to look elsewhere as France (yes, Kristeva and Derrida only half-way in and out, and for that matter let's not forget Lacan's choratic behaviors on and off the text) might be the testicle of Spain but there the image rummages around and comes to an end - it's not as if there's the necessity for a sudden bursting-forth like you get, maybe in Lautreamont, Rimbaud as well, but you don't get in Japan and France isn't simply that regimented although regimented indeed - so why there, language-control-subversion _from the lowest levels_ in the form of a conspiracy I don't know - but these _chatterings_ (let's not forget feminin ecriture, Irigaray, Wittig, Cixous, or what might pass for masculin ecriture, Barthes, Sollers for two, ever read his Women? I did for the in-sites) are everywhere, taking apart foundations or what might pass for them (let's not forget however Rene Thom, the Bourbaki, even Benoit Mandlebrot on the other side of the coin, all these mother-structures appearing - I'd put Pierre Duhem's analysis somewhere in the middle of all this) - you've got cooling ponds on the surface with their ordered ciliated enfoldings of structured shorelines and down deep, Leviathans breaking out (look at Roustang or Clement Rosset, now we're talking) or shuttling around the surface (then there's the German analyses of classical geometric surfaces and their ur-structures, think of Klein, although there are Manning and Sommerville for n-dimensional stuff, not to mention Coxeter) - one might wonder about the flaneur tradition (situationism, Baudelaire, Beau Brummel) as far as that goes, the whole francophonic enterprise as it were, one great derive - look at Balzac and one couldn't leave out, in the entirety across the board, Rabelais - or the Flaubert of Saint Anthony or Salome - from which all sorts of disturbances erupt - I prefer Bouvard and Pecuchet myself - it's subtler there, the choratic breaking out as ripples across the cool- ing ponds, especially in the received notions section of the book - one might place, especially in regard to derive, the vagabonding of Villon naturally enough - as if nature were artifice vis-a-vis Mallarme (not to mention the Quebecois Gaston Miron, which opens up all sorts of possibil- ities - Nicole Brossard's ecriture feminin, Hubert Acquin's Robbe-Grillet coupled with frisson and anti-colonialism, Paul Chamberland's eruption, Marie Claire-Blais' burning homes, flamed desires) - as Victor Beaulieu might point out the Catholicisms erupting as well (look at Bataille, Lei- ris once again, no wait, Verlaine), even sciences' chatterings in the guise of Michel Serres (not to mention Foucault somewhere hungering about the Bourbaki if I had my way about it) - or Sartre's Being and Nothingness finishing off with slimy holes, you get the picture (all those theories of representation, say Christian Metz) - broken by Baudrillard turning rup- ture into rapture into and out of fine art - it's a big swirl, it has no beginning and no end, it just goes round and round and doesn't escape the borders of the continent - oh yes, it's been incontinent - there have been missives, missions, missionaries - unceasing flooding of lapped shores world-wide - Celine would pause at one or another point here - place three little dots - _all_ those shores - I'll refuse to do it - it's been an industry (don't forget for a second the analyses of Pierre Bourdieu, Regis Debray) - it turns in on itself - it implodes - a precession of thinking simulacra - (actants maybe in Greimas, sad and fallen leaves and leavings in Violet Leduc) - world-wide influence (Sartre and de Beauvoir beaver to his mister, Levi-Strauss' discontent with structure turned music, telling his way through the saying of culture in spite of everything or Piaget bringing it back in essai de logique operatoire) - one's got to give cre- dit to rapture still (Michel Tournier doing to Robinson Crusoe or The Ogre) - just a moment, the phone's ringing (Pierre Levy on the other end of the line) (extending outward like hermaphroditic pubic hair) (curling around Sarduy as everyone comes to Paris) (drugged by Michaux) (killed by Artaud) just a moment, the bell's ringing (running down the flow) (someone I don't know) ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 05:41:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: A hopeful note? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MORE PROOF FROM THE MAELSTROM Extract from the Durbanville Times 23 July 1998: Rita de Grooning, a paraplegic garage attendant in Durbanville, recently remarked that during the troubled years after her first accident, damaging and ultimately losing a leg while clearing mines in southern Sudan, she turned to the work of E M Cronenmeyer, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poet of South Africa. “Cronenmeyer is instantly forgettable, he's so difficult and manages to avoid stating anything clearly. I spent hours trying to work out what he was on about. It's brilliant stuff," remarked de Grooning. "I was faced with some difficult political situations up there. Poverty, war, disease. It’s refreshing to turn to a poet like Cronenmeyer to get away from the real world." Asked to clarify, de Grooning went on, "Well, when someone’s dying under an oppressive regime, there's more than one possible angle- they get it wrong, taking it personally. Especially women, who haven’t had much luck with pronouns in literature anyway, I guess. We need poetry that avoids personal history, is really difficult and means little to the people being slaughtered. That’s clearly the way forward for poetry; I've read all the theories." The collected works of E M Cronenmeyer, "Oh God, I Really Hate Pronouns", is available from Sin-Tax, Cape Town. Off of the Poetry Etc email list, 8/31/98, thanks to Chris Emery ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 08:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Some Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > - > > Some Europe > > Why do the French, for example, Julia Kristeva and the chatterings asso- > ciated with the chora and ruptures, or Jean-Jacques Lecercle and delirium, > then take Gilles Deleuze on non-sense or Catherine Clement on rapture, or > the opening of Anti-Oedipus or practically the w/hole of Libidinal Econo- > my, then there's the latent hysteria in The Story of the Eye, I mean why > do the French - and this becomes something for the English or the Ameri- > cans - some sort of escape into the preconception of depth where no one > treads - there's always the unconscious - good etiquette keeps it down as > does the internal evidence of the text - for example foreclosing or fire- > walls around what constitutes sense - reading the endless descriptions in > P.D. James for example - there is a sort of rectitude of class everywhere > present in this thinking and I'd say even in for example the performative > which becomes clear-cut and no wonder everyone gets upset with Derrida > spilling ink all over the margins; of course Huntington's been taken apart > for his climatological theories of civilization, so we've got to look > elsewhere as France (yes, Kristeva and Derrida only half-way in and out, > and for that matter let's not forget Lacan's choratic behaviors on and off > the text) might be the testicle of Spain but there the image rummages > around and comes to an end - it's not as if there's the necessity for a > sudden bursting-forth like you get, maybe in Lautreamont, Rimbaud as well, > but you don't get in Japan and France isn't simply that regimented > although regimented indeed - so why there, language-control-subversion > _from the lowest levels_ in the form of a conspiracy I don't know - but > these _chatterings_ (let's not forget feminin ecriture, Irigaray, Wittig, > Cixous, or what might pass for masculin ecriture, Barthes, Sollers for > two, ever read his Women? I did for the in-sites) are everywhere, taking > apart foundations or what might pass for them (let's not forget however > Rene Thom, the Bourbaki, even Benoit Mandlebrot on the other side of the > coin, all these mother-structures appearing - I'd put Pierre Duhem's > analysis somewhere in the middle of all this) - you've got cooling ponds > on the surface with their ordered ciliated enfoldings of structured > shorelines and down deep, Leviathans breaking out (look at Roustang or > Clement Rosset, now we're talking) or shuttling around the surface (then > there's the German analyses of classical geometric surfaces and their > ur-structures, think of Klein, although there are Manning and Sommerville > for n-dimensional stuff, not to mention Coxeter) - one might wonder about > the flaneur tradition (situationism, Baudelaire, Beau Brummel) as far as > that goes, the whole francophonic enterprise as it were, one great derive > - look at Balzac and one couldn't leave out, in the entirety across the > board, Rabelais - or the Flaubert of Saint Anthony or Salome - from which > all sorts of disturbances erupt - I prefer Bouvard and Pecuchet myself - > it's subtler there, the choratic breaking out as ripples across the cool- > ing ponds, especially in the received notions section of the book - one > might place, especially in regard to derive, the vagabonding of Villon > naturally enough - as if nature were artifice vis-a-vis Mallarme (not to > mention the Quebecois Gaston Miron, which opens up all sorts of possibil- > ities - Nicole Brossard's ecriture feminin, Hubert Acquin's Robbe-Grillet > coupled with frisson and anti-colonialism, Paul Chamberland's eruption, > Marie Claire-Blais' burning homes, flamed desires) - as Victor Beaulieu > might point out the Catholicisms erupting as well (look at Bataille, Lei- > ris once again, no wait, Verlaine), even sciences' chatterings in the > guise of Michel Serres (not to mention Foucault somewhere hungering about > the Bourbaki if I had my way about it) - or Sartre's Being and Nothingness > finishing off with slimy holes, you get the picture (all those theories of > representation, say Christian Metz) - broken by Baudrillard turning rup- > ture into rapture into and out of fine art - it's a big swirl, it has no > beginning and no end, it just goes round and round and doesn't escape the > borders of the continent - oh yes, it's been incontinent - there have been > missives, missions, missionaries - unceasing flooding of lapped shores > world-wide - Celine would pause at one or another point here - place three > little dots - _all_ those shores - I'll refuse to do it - it's been an > industry (don't forget for a second the analyses of Pierre Bourdieu, Regis > Debray) - it turns in on itself - it implodes - a precession of thinking > simulacra - (actants maybe in Greimas, sad and fallen leaves and leavings > in Violet Leduc) - world-wide influence (Sartre and de Beauvoir beaver to > his mister, Levi-Strauss' discontent with structure turned music, telling > his way through the saying of culture in spite of everything or Piaget > bringing it back in essai de logique operatoire) - one's got to give cre- > dit to rapture still (Michel Tournier doing to Robinson Crusoe or The > Ogre) - just a moment, the phone's ringing (Pierre Levy on the other end > of the line) (extending outward like hermaphroditic pubic hair) (curling > around Sarduy as everyone comes to Paris) (drugged by Michaux) (killed by > Artaud) just a moment, the bell's ringing (running down the flow) (someone > I don't know) > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Sorry about that. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:44:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: QUERIES (CB and DS) Comments: To: Charles Bernstein In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980905121824.00fa52c0@mail.bway.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Charles---- Chris Stroffolino On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Charles Bernstein wrote: > > > > > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:12:38 -0400 > > From: louis stroffolino > > > > Does anybody here know what Bernstein poem (i think it's at least > > 9 years old) that has some line (or sentiment) to the effect of > > "Hey, I'm glad I didn't live any longer, because if I would have > > I would have had to spend more money?" > > (this is a TOTAL paraphrase, from flimsy memory.... > > I probably have the TONE totally wrong, and maybe even the > > MEANING). Any help would be appreciated? Thanks > > > > **** > > > "Debris of Shock/Shock of Debris" in _Dark City_: > > "If I'd have lived longer, I'd have lost > even more money." > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 09:42:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: chapbooks from PaperBrainPress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings Folks: Hot of the press and ice-cold from the fridge... _mag nets_ (m. magoolaghan) - 20 pp. (Method: Semi-serendipitous "Rude formalism": Tiles pulled randomly from packaging; loose letters & uncropped combos incorporated as-wuz.) Still warm... _ROOMS_ (Dan Featherston) -- 40 pp. "The poems in ROOMS are so very well constructed, with a pulse inside them that immediately engages at a deep level while attending to the surfaces en route." -- Sheila Murphy Samples viewable at: http://bmarsh.dtai.com/PBrain/magnets.html http://bmarsh.dtai.com/PBrain/rooms.html $3 for one | $5 for both | Checks to William Marsh | love to all (more general stuff on the press effort at: http://bmarsh.dtai.com/PBrain/pbrain.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PaperBrainPress http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 09:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Some Europe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" guy debord will bring the hot dogs and raoul vanigem wants you to save some kumquat krumble billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:06:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Welcome to Poetics List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_12493494==_.ALT" --=====================_12493494==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rev. 6-1-98 (This message is sent out to all new and renewing subscribers and it is sent out to the list at the beginning of every month -- a bit late this month!) ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo Postal Address: 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY, Buffalo, NY 14260 ___________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ___________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Cautions 4. Digest Option 5. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 6. Who's Subscribed 7. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 8. Poetics Archives at EPC 9. Publishers & Editors Read This! [This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein= (bernstei@acsu.buffalo.edu), Loss Peque=F1oGlazier (glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu), and Joel Kuszai (poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu). ___________________________________________________________ Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List The Poetics List was founded in late 1993 with the epigraph above. There are presently over 600 subscribers. Please note that this is a private list and information about the list= should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep= the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume manageable. The Poetics List, while committed to openness, is moderated. While= individual posts of participants are sent directly to all subscribers, we continue to work to promote the editorial function of this project. The definition of that project, while provisional, and while open to continual redefinition by list participants, is nonetheless aversive to a generalized discussion of poetry. Rather, our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in= poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to= the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. **We also encourage subscribers to post information on publications and reading series that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in= which they appear (see section 9 below).** (THIS MEANS *YOU*). Please keep in mind that all posts go out immediately to all subscribers,= and become part of an on-line archive. *Posting to Poetics is a form of publication, not personal communication.* Participants are asked to exercise caution before posting messages! While spontaneity of response may seem the very heart of the list at its best, it also has the darker side of= circulating ideas that have not been well considered (or considered by another reader -- editor or friend). Given the nature of the medium, subscribers do well to maintain some skepticism when reading the list and, where possible, to try= to avoid taking what may be something close to a spontaneous comment made in= the heat of exchange as if it were a revised or edited essay ("Let the Reader Beware!"). The "list owner" of Poetics is Charles Bernstein. Joel Kuszai is list manager.=20 For subscription information contact us at POETICS@acsu.buffalo.edu. ___________________________________________________________ 2. Subscriptions Subscriptions to Poetics are free of charge. But we ask that you subscribe with your real name and we reserve the right to request additional information, including address and phone number. All subscription information you supply will remain confidential. You can subscribe (sub) or unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line= message, with no subject line, to: listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu the one-line message should say: unsub poetics {or} sub poetics Jill Jillway (replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your name= to unsub) We will be sent a notice of all subscription activity. Please allow several days for your new or re-subscription to take effect. * If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: Sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to get your Poetics mail. To avoid this, unsub from the old address and resub from the new address. If you can no longer do this there is a solution if you use Eudora (an e-mail program that is available free at shareware sites): from the= Tools menu select "Options" and then select set-up for "Sending Mail": you may be able to substitute your old address here and send the unsub message. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may= get bounced. Please try avoid having messages from the list returned to us. If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an increase from your system administrator. (You may wish to argue that this subscription is part of your scholarly communication!) You may also wish to consider obtaining a= commercial account. In general, if a Poetics message is bounced from your account, your subscription to Poetics will be temporarily suspended. If this happens,= simply resubscribe to the list in the normal manner, once your account problem has been resolved. All questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription= or subscription policy, should be addressed to the list's administrative= address: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu. Please note that it may take up to ten days, or more, for us to reply to messages. ____________________________________________________________________ 3. Cautions Please do not post to the list personal or backchannel correspondence, or other unpublished material, without the express permission of the author.= Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from= this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use". The Poetics List has a 50 message daily limit. If more than 50 messages are received, the listserver will automatically hold those additional messages until the list is manually unlocked, usually the following day. While it is difficult to prescribe a set limit on the number of daily, weekly, or= monthly posts for any subscriber, please keep this limit in mind. If you plan to respond to multiple threads, it is generally preferable to consolidate your reply into one message. While relevant excerpts from a post to which you are responding may usefully be appended to your reply, please do not include in your new post the whole text of a long previously posted message. As an outside maximum, the listserv is set to accept no more than 5 messages a day from= any one subscriber. Please do not send attachments or include extremely long documents in a= post, since this may make it difficult for those who get the list via "digest" or who cannot decode attached or specially formatted files. In addition to being archived at the EPC, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications are always welcome. (See section 7.) Please do not send inquiries to the list to get an individual subscribers address. To get this information, see section 6. If you want someone to send out information to the list as a whole, or= supply information missing from an post, or thank someone for posting something you requested, please send the request or comment to the individual backchannel, not to the whole list. ____________________________________________________________________ 4. Digest Option The Listserve program gives you he option to receive all the posted Poetics message each day as a single message. If you would prefer to receive ONE message each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for= that day, you can use the digest option. Send this one-line message (no subject line) to listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu set poetics digest NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this message!! You can switch back to individual messages by sending this message: set poetics mail ____________________________________________________________________ 5. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail Do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded and you may= lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending a message to "listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu" set poetics nomail & turn it on again with: set poetics mail When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics archive. (See 8 below.) ____________________________________________________________________ 6. Who's Subscribed To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message blank. In the body of your e-mail message type: review poetics You will be sent within a reasonable amount of time (by return e-mail) a rather long list containing the names and e-mail addresses of Poetics subscribers.= =20 This list is alphabetized by server not name. or try: review POETICS by name review POETICS by country which will give you the list alphabetically by name or a flawed list by country (since all ".com" and ".net"s are counted as US) *Please do not send a message to the list asking for the address of a= specific subscriber.* ____________________________________________________________________ 7. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? our URL is http://writing.upenn.edu/epc The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to= serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center provides access to the burgeoning number of electronic resources in the new poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct= connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides= information about contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in= poetry and poetics. And we have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets' reading their work, as well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series. The EPC is directed by Loss Peque=F1o Glazier. ____________________________________________________________________ 8. Poetics Archives via EPC Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the links= to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and year or search= them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. Or set your browser to go directly to: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/archive ____________________________________________________________________ 9. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications= as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list= of your press/publications to glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write= file name, word processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail= message to the address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your word processor will save files in Rich Text Format= (.rtf) this is also highly desirable Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. Initially, you might want to send short announcements of new publications directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check= the EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME --=====================_12493494==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rev. 6-1-98

(This message is sent out to all new and renewing subscribers and it is sent out to the list at the beginning of every month -- a bit late this month!) ____________________________________________________________________


Welcome to the Poetics List

&

The Electronic Poetry Center

sponsored by  The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo

Postal Address: 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY, Buffalo, NY 14260

___________________________________________________________

http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ___________________________________________________________

_______Contents___________

1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Cautions 4. Digest Option 5.= Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 6. Who's Subscribed 7. The Electronic= Poetry Center (EPC) 8. Poetics Archives at EPC 9. Publishers & Editors= Read This!



[This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein= (bernstei@acsu.buffalo.edu), Loss Peque=F1oGlazier= (glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu), and Joel Kuszai (poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu).= ___________________________________________________________


Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O= ye postmasters!


1. About the Poetics List

The Poetics List was founded in late 1993 with the epigraph above.

There are presently over 600 subscribers.

Please note that this is a private list and information about the list= should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to= keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and= also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume= manageable.

The Poetics List, while committed to openness, is moderated. While= individual posts of participants are sent directly to all subscribers, we= continue to work to promote the editorial function of this project. The= definition of that project, while provisional, and while open to continual= redefinition by list participants, is nonetheless aversive to a generalized= discussion of poetry. Rather, our aim is  to support, inform, and= extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations,= renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the= questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the= otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. **We= also encourage subscribers to post information on publications and reading= series that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in which they= appear (see section 9 below).** (THIS MEANS *YOU*).

Please keep in mind that all posts go out immediately to all subscribers,= and become part of an on-line archive. *Posting to Poetics is a form of= publication, not personal communication.* Participants are asked to= exercise caution before posting messages! While spontaneity of response may= seem the very heart of the list at its best, it also has the darker side of= circulating ideas that have not been well considered (or considered by= another reader -- editor or friend). Given the nature of the medium,= subscribers do well to maintain some skepticism when reading the list and,= where possible, to try to avoid taking what may be something close to a= spontaneous comment made in the heat of exchange as if it were a revised or= edited essay ("Let the Reader Beware!").

The "list owner" of Poetics is Charles Bernstein.= Joel Kuszai is list manager.  For subscription information contact us= at POETICS@acsu.buffalo.edu.

___________________________________________________________

2. Subscriptions

Subscriptions to Poetics are free of charge. But we ask that you subscribe= with your real name and we reserve the right to request additional= information, including address and phone number. All subscription= information you supply will remain confidential.

You can subscribe (sub) or unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line= message, with no subject line, to:

listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu

the one-line message should say:

unsub poetics

{or}

sub poetics Jill Jillway

(replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your name= to unsub)

We will be sent a notice of all subscription activity. Please allow several= days for your new or re-subscription to take effect.

*

If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note:

Sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system= administrator.  If this happens you will not be able to send messages= to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to get your= Poetics mail.  To avoid this, unsub from the old address and resub= from the new address.  If you can no longer do this there is a= solution if you use Eudora (an e-mail program that is available free at= shareware sites): from the Tools menu select "Options" and then= select set-up for "Sending Mail": you may be able to substitute= your old address here and send the unsub message.

The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your= system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may= get bounced.  Please try avoid having messages from the list returned= to us. If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an= increase from your system administrator. (You may wish to argue that this= subscription is part of your scholarly communication!) You may also wish to= consider obtaining a commercial account.

In general, if a Poetics message is bounced from your account, your= subscription to Poetics will be temporarily suspended. If this happens,= simply resubscribe to the list in the normal manner, once your account= problem has been resolved.

All questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription= or subscription policy, should be addressed to the list's administrative= address: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu. Please note that it may take up to ten= days, or more, for us to reply to messages.= ____________________________________________________________________

3.  Cautions

Please do not post to the list personal or backchannel correspondence, or= other unpublished material, without the express permission of the author.= Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author;= material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the= author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair= use".

The Poetics List has a 50 message daily limit. If more than 50 messages are= received, the listserver will automatically hold those additional messages= until the list is manually unlocked, usually the following day. While it is= difficult to prescribe a set limit on the number of daily, weekly, or= monthly posts for any  subscriber, please keep this limit in mind. If= you plan to respond to multiple threads, it is generally preferable to= consolidate your reply into one message. While relevant excerpts from a= post to which you are responding may usefully be appended to your reply,= please do not include in your new post the whole text of a long previously= posted message. As an outside maximum, the listserv is set to accept no= more than 5 messages a day from any one subscriber.

Please do not send attachments or include extremely long= documents in a post, since this may make it difficult for those who get the= list via "digest" or who cannot decode attached or specially= formatted files.

In addition to being archived at the EPC, some posts to Poetics (especially= reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of= specific EPC subject areas. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications= are always welcome. (See section 7.)

Please do not send inquiries to the list to get an individual subscribers= address. To get this information, see section 6.

If you want someone to send out information to the list as a whole, or= supply information missing from an post, or thank someone for posting= something you requested, please send the request or comment to the= individual backchannel, not to the whole list.

____________________________________________________________________

4. Digest Option

The Listserve program gives you he option to receive all the posted Poetics= message each day as a single message. If you would prefer to receive ONE= message each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for= that day, you can use the digest option.  Send this one-line message= (no subject line) to

listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu

set poetics digest

NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a= reply to this message!!

You can switch back to individual messages by sending this message:

set poetics mail= ____________________________________________________________________

5. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail

Do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going= to be away for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded= and you may lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You= can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending a message to= "listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu"

set poetics nomail

& turn it on again with: set poetics mail

When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics= archive. (See 8 below.)

____________________________________________________________________

6. Who's Subscribed

To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to= listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of= the e-mail message blank.  In the body of your e-mail message= type:

review poetics

You will be sent within a reasonable amount of time (by return e-mail) a= rather long list containing the names and e-mail addresses of Poetics= subscribers.  This list is alphabetized by server not name.

or try:

review POETICS by name review POETICS by country

which will give you the list alphabetically by name or a flawed list by= country (since all ".com" and ".net"s are counted as= US)

*Please do not send a message to the list asking for the address of a= specific subscriber.*= ____________________________________________________________________

7. What is the Electronic Poetry Center?

our URL is

http://writing.upenn.edu/epc

The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry= center is to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of= activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the= world.  The Center provides access to the burgeoning number of= electronic resources in the new poetries including RIF/T and other= electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of= electronic poetic texts, and direct connections to numerous related= electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about= contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and= poetics. And we have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets'= reading their work, as well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio= interview series.

The EPC is directed by Loss Peque=F1o Glazier.= ____________________________________________________________________

8. Poetics Archives via EPC

Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the links= to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and year or= search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to= print or download any of these files.

Or set your browser to go directly to: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/archive

__________________________________________________________________= __

9. Publishers & Editors Read This!

PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is= open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed= publications as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to= participate! Send a list of your press/publications to= glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject= line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word= processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the= address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk.= Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly= acceptable. If your word processor will save files in Rich Text Format= (.rtf) this is also highly desirable

Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover= copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including= excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.).  Be sure to include full= information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers= both of the press and any distributors.

Initially, you might want to send short announcements of new publications= directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check= the EPC; in your message please include full information for= ordering.  If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention= that in any Poetics posts.

Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a= noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your= publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting= publications.= ____________________________________________________________________

END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME

--=====================_12493494==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:15:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Agent Sunshine, aka Eric Gleason" Subject: reading MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THE INTELLIGENT ESSAY ASSESSOR A psychology professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder is spearheading the creation of an Intelligent Essay Assessor, a computerized tool to assist professors in grading students' written essays. Thomas Landauer says that to use the program, a professor must first teach it to recognize both good and bad essay writing by feeding it examples of both, which have been manually graded. The program can also be trained using what he calls a "gold standard" -- passages from textbooks or other materials written by experts on the same subject as the essay to be graded. While earlier digital essay graders work by analyzing essays mechanically -- looking at sentence structures and counting commas, periods and word lengths -- Landauer says his program can actually "understand" the student's writing using sophisticated artificial intelligence technology called "latent semantic analysis." It does so by comparing the patterns of word usage in student essays with the usage patterns it has learned from the initial samples, enabling the computer "to a good approximation, to understand the meanings of words and passages of text." If an essay appears to convey the same knowledge as those used in the examples, the computer gives it a high score. The Intelligent Essay Assessor is not meant to be used to grade essays in English-composition or creative-writing assignments, where a student is being graded more on writing skill than subject knowledge. (Chronicle of Higher Education 4 Sep 98) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:45:15 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: A hopeful note? Content-Type: text/plain Ron, This seems like a joke, especially the title of Cronenmeyer's book & his wonderfully pedantic comment, "I've read all the theories." Does anyone out there know anything about this Cronenmeyer? Maybe someone could post a work of his on the list so we can see what he's up to. If this turns out not to be a put-on, then it seems to suggest that L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry can be a kind of escapism-- or at least, escapism for the oppressed! So I'm a little surprised to find you, Ron Silliman, suggesting this as hopeful (though I think I would agree with you, if only because the work's being *read*, poetry finding some use (however ironically) in the world at large). Hey, I like some escapism myself-- it's just not the only thing I want.... Mark DuCharme Ron Silliman wrote: >MORE PROOF FROM THE MAELSTROM > >Extract from the Durbanville Times 23 July 1998: > >Rita de Grooning, a paraplegic garage attendant in Durbanville, recently >remarked that during the troubled years after her first accident, damaging >and ultimately losing a leg while clearing mines in southern Sudan, she >turned to the work of E M Cronenmeyer, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poet of South Africa. > >“Cronenmeyer is instantly forgettable, he's so difficult and manages to >avoid stating anything clearly. I spent hours trying to work out what he was >on about. It's brilliant stuff," remarked de Grooning. "I was faced with >some difficult political situations up there. Poverty, war, disease. It’s >refreshing to turn to a poet like Cronenmeyer to get away from the real >world." > >Asked to clarify, de Grooning went on, "Well, when someone’s dying under an >oppressive regime, there's more than one possible angle- they get it wrong, >taking it personally. Especially women, who haven’t had much luck with >pronouns in literature anyway, I guess. We need poetry that avoids personal >history, is really difficult and means little to the people being >slaughtered. That’s clearly the way forward for poetry; I've read all the >theories." > >The collected works of E M Cronenmeyer, "Oh God, I Really Hate Pronouns", is >available from Sin-Tax, Cape Town. > > >Off of the Poetry Etc email list, 8/31/98, thanks to Chris Emery > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:28:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Not escapism exactly (eh, Ron?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had Ron Silliman's _Sunset Debris__ onsite for some weeks before I got around to reading it, even though friend and big fan of the author. Then one of those horrible nights when you can't sleep and a too-generous quota of your omissions and inadvertencies camps in your mind, I picked it up and was totally engaged. It is difficult material formally though not at sentence level, difficult to endure, but I needed something that would stop my wheels spinning, and I read it from start to finish (it would be confusing to say A-Z!). It quieted me by holding my attention. This was not what I would describe as escapist. Perhaps the word is being used inaccurately, in this thread. However, I can well suppose that in tough circumstances, easy reads can feel thin, w/o enough substance to be worth entering. Isn't this what's being said? David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:09:45 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: thirty over sixty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Franklin, LA Boys, listers, Ribotters, thanks for the generational surge in protective alliances among the best of friends, in the worst of times. Without really trying to defend a position, or without having to imply any real belief whatsoever, let me remark upon the controversy which now has escalated to a full-fledged San Diego-LA war. The true spirit of west-coast road rage has gotten to me. You don't even have a football team! ok ok ok. I'm sorry if my question about age/generational groupings seemed rooted in a criticsm of the Ribot conference upcoming this next month. It certainly wasn't intended as that, although when it was announced it struck me and I've thought about it a lot lately; as well earlier this summer in Buffalo a generational "poetry festival" was held, although on much smaller terms. Certainly given the proliferation of forms and scenes, the internet, blah blah blah, the failure to have any sense of ideological "centering" (like a war, or a cause, but not princes Diana) might cause especially younger people to seek more demographic methods of defining ourselves. The baby boomer poets. The generation x poets. etc. etc. The anxiety about not having any criteria around which to organize ourselves , it could be said to be perhaps the only unifying characteristic of poets under 40. This anxiety about relationships to one's peers and elders, including access to the ability to redress the boundaries of literary inheritance. It certainly has been an endless feature of the dialogs on this list, though it didn't begin here. And I think I might as well say it and try to dig my way out of it later, and maybe it's what I've been trying to propose, neither as advocate nor critic, but also (and not purely in dialectical terms, either) as both critic and advocate. And it is esentially that the terms underlying such formations of group identity, including editing a press or a magazine, that the terms of it are largely social issues and are comprised of all the usual things that define social life; that the formal criteria proposed are often uselessly vague (i.e. "innovative" and "experimental" as terms serve only to define the group's social boundaries and not the "work itself"). I think that there are good things and bad things to this tendency. And I'm not proposing that we replace the network-social model with a bureaucratic proceduralism by which the "best poem" is always found utilizing machinic concepts of determining [insert evaluative criterion here] as regards taste, judgement, etc. I think a "social theory of editing" could have a positive role in developing the expanding poetry markets in the neighborhoods of southern california, for instance. And that you could conduct a workshop on the "social theory of editing" and you could do it with the verve of labor organizer, or a composition teacher. BY THE WAY for those who think that listserv technologies will simply be outlawed for causing anxiety, depression, stress, and endless "gossip" (i.e. literature)--think again. You can't return the south pacific to its pre-colonial status anymore than you can get the US dollars out of Quebec... And to go back to it, it never seemed to me that the terms of the Ribot Conference were in anyway going to be about generational definitions, etc., and I'm sorry to hear that issue has now been placed on the docket, for I personally think it is a waste of time. There is a lot happening that weekend: doesn't the Arshile reading happen that day too? I would like to go up to the conference, and would like to go to LA even before then for some events, so please post them here to the list. But the age-issue really doesn't seem like all that interesting a topic to me. If we can make it a valuable topic for conversation, then let's hear it, thank-you. Because aside from attempts at valuating the startling juxtapositions created by placing an unknown20somthing alongside an established 60something... I mean I can't get beyond what seems unavoidably humorous in this setup. Why not find an established 20somthing (and they're out there, dammit) and put her next to an unknown 60something... but hey, I'm there. I'll go just to hear the poetry, okay, the startling juxtapositions don't say anything "in themselves"--commentary, give me some interpretation! For the record, I'm less interested in being included than I am in hearing what the criteria are. And this is true most of the time. So my placard idea was only a joke...but I will be up there and so will some of the San Diego Unit of the poetry reserves. RE: BILL LUOMA There is a kind of Social theory behind WORKS & DAYS and one which I think could be a model for group formation. And not group formation with a sense of us & them, but group formation in the sense of tactical defense techniques. Franklin writes that when he tries to write about his friends it is "flat" compared to Luoma's work. I think that he's right and I am cuirous to know how this works. There is an "x"factor in this book, which gives off a glow. There is something immediately engaging for me about this highly social work. And it isn't something that I experience in every work which uses the proper noun, so a lot of talky fake new york school stuff leaves me cold. There is somthing to MY TRIP TO NYC and the other works--something which is carried across all the works. I don't know how to describe it--pathos?--perhaps, but it is something which is made possible by the fluid style of the paragraphs which allow him to submit "unrelated" observations to the catalog of actions, verbal and active actions, which comprise his work. Some of these, like the line "I never know why people in love spend time apart when they could be dead in two years" rip open whatever protective covering I had put myself into and the raw emotions of tears and spit and snot seem to be the punctuation to a kind of linguistic utterance more closely aligned with the scream than any other-- and this is the first book of poetry I have read this decade that made me cry. I'm glad I got to it when I did. and I realize that's a bizarre criteria for liking a work. For me, Luoma provides a history book about a group of friends, more than he records a literary history. And what is interesting about these people isn't that I know them or know who they are, but that Bill knows them and there is an accumulation of knowledge and experience made possible by the sustained ability to record in a compiling sort of way (like Myles' "anchorman"?) all of the events which register as actions. Obviously it is edited: no one loves baseball that much. And there is the danger that its most endearing characters become like "gargoyles" pried loose from a place where they are valued, hanging by a thread above a crowded city street. How Luoma is able to maintain the integrity of friends whose lives he effectively "represents" is worth discussing. Something about "the treatment "" of that personal-detail material. and you can imagine a book like this will someday be the subject of lawsuits, if not this book, one inspired by it. In fact, it is one of the few books wherein the names aren't changed. Maybe that is what finally makes it "poetry" Someone wrote me back channel that in new york, if you wanted to hang out, then you were part of the group. In a sense that spirit describes the tone of Luoma's book. I have more to say about all this, but it's confused and I'm eager to go outside now that the sun has gone in for the day. love, Jimmy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:25:19 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Not escapism exactly (eh, Ron?) Content-Type: text/plain My work is a great soporific I've been told. I've lately begun reading my way through all of the "other" Faulkner novels beyond the usual half dozen that everyone gets in college (or got when I went some 28-30 years ago). I picked up one, The Unvanquished, sort of by chance about 6 months ago, just coming off of David Wallace's Infinite Jest and was stunned by how much mind was present in every single sentence than I'd gotten from any "mainstream" novel in many a year (since Gravity's Rainbow perhaps). Yet in fact they do read "easy" if you can avoid getting completely stopped by some of the gargantuan knots of syntax, which are themselves totally worth the experience. But I've written before that much of the power of fiction comes precisely from the displacement of the effects of language onto symbolic structures, of which character is a main formation. Ron >Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:28:13 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: david bromige >Subject: Not escapism exactly (eh, Ron?) >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >I had Ron Silliman's _Sunset Debris__ onsite for some weeks before I got >around to reading it, even though friend and big fan of the author. Then >one of those horrible nights when you can't sleep and a too-generous quota >of your omissions and inadvertencies camps in your mind, I picked it up and >was totally engaged. It is difficult material formally though not at >sentence level, difficult to endure, but I needed something that would stop >my wheels spinning, and I read it from start to finish (it would be >confusing to say A-Z!). It quieted me by holding my attention. This was not >what I would describe as escapist. > >Perhaps the word is being used inaccurately, in this thread. However, I can >well suppose that in tough circumstances, easy reads can feel thin, w/o >enough substance to be worth entering. Isn't this what's being said? David > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: NEW FROM MEOW PRESS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NEW FROM MEOW PRESS Jerome Rothenberg Paris Elegies & Improvisations Meow Press is pleased to announce the publication of Jerome Rothenberg's _Paris Elegies & Improvisations_, the first MP chapbook from its new home of San Diego. 24pg. $5.00 A NOTE TO SUBSCRIBERS: This book has been added to the Summer Series. If you've subscribed to the press you will receive this book at no extra cost. Look for at least one other late-addition to the Summer Series. (hint: summer stretches into October here in San Diego...) Meow Press Joel Kuszai, editor POBox 948568 La Jolla, CA 92037 kuszai@acsu.buffalo.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/presses ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:11:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: No Europe w/o Stendahl! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was an uncommonly pleasant day. The lawns were smooth and green. The governness burst into flames. Those who study love may find it consequential. db3 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:25:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Depressed yet? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since the Carnegie-Mellon study alleging Internet-caused depression continues to surface, the following story from today's Washington Post may be of interest. A Search for Net Impact on Social Life=20 By John Schwartz=20 Washington Post Staff Writer=20 Monday, September 7, 1998; Page A3=20 What is the Internet doing to us?=20 The burgeoning online medium has proved an irresistible subject of study by social scientists thrilled to see a new society emerging virtually overnight. Academics are examining every facet of online life for America's millions of Internet users, including the ways people use the new medium, its successes and failures in education and medicine, the prospects for electronic commerce and the development of communities of people linked via modem.=20 But despite a great deal of research, "We know very little about how the Internet is actually affecting people's lives," said James E. Katz, a leading researcher in the field and professor in the Department of Communication at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, N.J.=20 Last week a much-touted study from Carnegie Mellon University suggested that users of the Internet become lonely and socially withdrawn. "The more people were online, the more signs they gave of being a little bit more socially isolated," in responses to standardized questionnaires used by researchers to measure depression, stress and strength of social ties, said Robert Kraut, the lead author of the study.=20 Reports on the study sparked a strong reaction in the online world from people like Arthur R. McGee, 32, an employee of a San Francisco-based Internet service provider for nonprofit groups. "Going back as far as I can remember, my use of [online communications] has GREATLY increased my human interaction," McGee said on WELL, a Sausalito, Calif.-based online service. "I've met more people IN PERSON of varying ethnic and social backgrounds than I would have without these communication tools." But computer author Robert Lauriston countered, "I think a lot of people are in denial about the negative effects of spending too much time online." On the global conference system known as Usenet, Donna Gettings, 43, a manager of an at-home medical transcription service in Pittsburgh, quipped, "According to this survey, I guess I committed suicide some time ago."=20 The Carnegie Mellon study is part of HomeNet, a $1.5 million project in which 93 Pittsburgh families were given free computers and Internet accounts. The three-year-old project has already published studies showing, for example, that use evolves from initial passive World Wide Web surfing to communication activities such as e-mail and Usenet. The group has also shown that people who view pornography online tend to greatly decrease their porn surfing after the novelty wears off.=20 HomeNet, however, has its limits. The 169 participants are a small group and were not selected at random =96 two things that make i= t difficult to generalize any study results to a larger population. The researchers also did not follow a "control," or similar group that had no Internet access, generally considered an essential component of any such work, said Jim Thomas, a professor of sociology at Northern Illinois University. That the researchers only surveyed the participants twice =96 once before they went online, then a year later =96 is a serious weakness, said Donna L. Hoffman, a researcher at Vanderbilt University. The Carnegie Mellon researchers themselves note that the study's large population of teenagers, who tend to grow depressed and withdrawn, is one factor that may have skewed the results.=20 The new research is "not ready for prime time," Hoffman said. "This is not saying that the Internet does not cause depression," though she doubts it does because such a finding would "run counter to experience, anecdotal evidence, practice and scholarly research" like her own. "Maybe it does =96 but this research does not prove that."=20 The notion that Net use might cause depression "surprised us," said Carnegie Mellon study co-author William Scherlis. He was careful to note that "the effects that we noticed are small, but they are statistically significant. . . . It's not a big enough effect that if you use the Internet too many hours, you're going to wake up one morning and need a prescription for Prozac."=20 "These are relatively minor symptoms of depression," Kraut explained, "more like being in a funk than being suicidal."=20 Kraut declined to even attempt to translate the slight drop on an abstract scale of loneliness that the researchers used into real terms. "I'm not taking too seriously the actual numbers people are reporting; I'm taking seriously the fact that there is a trend."=20 Scherlis suggested that simple changes could make Internet exploration a less solitary pursuit =96 simply moving the computer from = a basement office to the family room, for example.=20 Kraut said the various uses of the Internet might affect mood; simple Web surfing, which for the most part resembles television viewing, might leave users feeling enervated and somewhat down =96 as televisio= n can. Reaching out to others through electronic mail, discussions and participation in online communities, on the other hand, might make people feel more connected and positive =96 especially if they tend to buil= d the strong bonds of friendship and support that are still more common in the real world than in the online one. A preponderance of weak relationships, they suggest, might not have the same uplifting effect. Those factors could be seized on by companies offering Internet services to come up with a better product, Kraut said.=20 The group's initial analysis of mood and various kinds of Internet use, however, has not borne out Kraut's theory; he said more research is needed.=20 Other researchers are examining the Internet with different results. Rutgers's Katz and colleague Philip Aspden, executive director of the Center for Research on the Information Society, surveyed 2,500 Internet users and found no evidence of social withdrawal: Online participants are no less likely to join religious, leisure or community organizations than people who aren't online, the research indicated.=20 Hoffman and partner Tom Novak at Vanderbilt University's Project 2000 have collaborated with researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology and others, and focus in part on consumers and what they find compelling in electronic commerce. Their research, too, suggests that many Web users consider being online to be both positive and enriching, leading to a satisfying mental state known as "flow."=20 No one yet knows where various threads of research will lead, and Carnegie Mellon's Scherlis warns against reducing scientific results like his to a "bumper sticker" notion that the Internet is depressing or somehow dangerous and should therefore be controlled or restricted. The findings "should in no way give anybody an excuse to delay bringing the Internet into the home or into the schools or into the inner city =96 or anywhere else for that matter," he said.=20 =A9 Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 04:04:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: New York readings? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 5 Sep 1998, Herb Levy wrote: > > Evenings on the 24th to 26th, at least, I'll be at Suspended Music, > concerts by Deep Listening Band (Pauline Oliverso, Stuart Dempster * David > Gamper) & Ellen Fullman's Long String Instrument (100 feet long) in the Low Herb, this may be a shot in the dark but. i heard on the CBC a piece that featured someone(s) playing a lone piano wire strung between two distant points in a church. i can't remember how it was "played" but i still remember it almost ten years later. are these the same people? does anyone know what i'm talking about? it was beautiful. kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 04:12:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: f.y.i. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oh Lord won't you give me a Patagonia jacket My friends all wear Gor-Tex and I just can't hack it Oh Lord won't you give me a Patagonia jacket. Janice J'alpine |-------------------------------------------------------------| | And the near future when I'll shut up again, | | utterly baffled by these poems. | | Jacques Roubaud | |-------------------------------------------------------------| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: No Europe w/o Stendahl! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It was an uncommonly pleasant day. The lawns were smooth and green. The >governness burst into flames. Those who study love may find it >consequential. > >db3 Sunlight dripped aslant through the humid air. The cuspidor gave off a faint scent redolent of Nairobi. Charles was seen with his hand momentarily on the back of the pool-attendant's shirt GB George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Faulkner In-Reply-To: <19980907022520.25464.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yr so lucky getting to read those other Faulkners for the first time. When I was in my twenties I simply sat down and read them all thru (exceptThe Rievers, which came out later) and even then I knew that I was never going to have an experience like that ever again. Since then I have never sat down and read someone right through. There are still about 4 Queneau books I get to read for the first time. But you have to get really careful, because meting them out to yrself that way, you can miscalculate and die before you have read, say, _The Blue Flowers_. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:54:36 +0000 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lund University Subject: Akira Kurosawa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just heard the sad news -- the great director Akira Kurosawa has died. I think the best tribute possible is for all of us to go out and rent "Rashomon" tonight. R.A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 05:31:52 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: No Europe w/o Stendahl! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's gonna be a bright, bright, sun-shi-ny day. Greens laid with fresh chemicals. The prepared accelerants should do quite nicely. Those in the know were knowing again. db(2?) ------ >It was an uncommonly pleasant day. The lawns were smooth and green. The >governness burst into flames. Those who study love may find it >consequential. > >db3 Sunlight dripped aslant through the humid air. The cuspidor gave off a faint scent redolent of Nairobi. Charles was seen with his hand momentarily on the back of the pool-attendant's shirt GB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:16:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Akira Kurosawa Comments: To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sad indeed; took out a Kurosawa I hadn't seen last night. This morning the French daily LIBERATION has an excellent dossier on AK: http://www.liberation.fr/quotidien/index.html Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent Anerica whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ---------- >From: Robert Archambeau >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Akira Kurosawa >Date: Mon, Sep 7, 1998, 6:54 AM > >Just heard the sad news -- the great director Akira Kurosawa has died. > >I think the best tribute possible is for all of us to go out and rent >"Rashomon" tonight. > >R.A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:20:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This forwarded to me by a friend. See you there? Randy Prunty Subj: CFP: Innovation in Contemporary American Poetry (1/5; 4/8-4/10) Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry What criteria delimit the margins of American poetry today? What is the role of the lyric and narrative in the elliptical, fragmented and disjunctive approach utilized by many contemporary poets. How has Language poetry given way or split off from other "experimental" poetries and how do gender and race figure into those divergence's? How has performance poetry altered, popularized or skirted the "poetry establishment"? What projects have poets undertaken to analyze, bridge, or deconstruct the mutually marginal spheres of "high" and "low" poetry today? We particularly invite papers on poets such as, Rae Armantrout, Lucy Brock-Broido, Anne Carson, Lynn Emanuel, Elaine Equi, Jorie Graham, Barbara Guest, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Susan Howe, Ann Lauterbach, Bernadette Meyer, Jane Miller, Tracie Morris, Harryette Mullen, Alice Notely, Susan Wheeler and others. This three-day conference sponsored by Women Poets at Barnard will begin on Thursday, April 8 with a poetry reading, and continue through Saturday, April 10. The keynote speaker will be Marjorie Perloff. The conference will feature critical papers as well as additional poetry readings. Papers received by January 5 will receive priority, but papers will be read through January. Papers grouped as panels welcome. Please submit to either Claudia Rankine, English Dept, Barnard College, 3009 Broadway, New York, NY 10027 or Allison Cummings, English Dept, Hampden-Sydney College, Hampden-Sydney, VA 23901. ************************** Allison Cummings Box 167 Hampden-Sydney College Hampden-Sydney, VA 23943 804-223-6298 E-Mail allisonc@hsc.edu ************************** =============================================== From the Literary Calls for Papers Mailing List CFP@english.upenn.edu Full Information at http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/ or write Jack Lynch: jlynch@english.upenn.edu =============================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:04:12 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: infinite jest Comments: To: SSSCHAEFER@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain I liked Infinite Jest okay also. The secret sources for it as a book, I think, are the work of John Barth and Anthony Burgess (I was surprised to see "horrow show" appear more than once). His sense of the sentence is entirely utilitarian and his ear is tin, but his sense of construction and the grotesque are marvelous. The scene in which the son describes his initial reactions to his father's suicide (depicted in terms of smell) was amazing. I found it odd, given his own background as a tennis prodigy, that the people who really seemed "felt" as characters were all the ones in the half-way house. But any novel that has several hundred footnotes (including several with key plot twists) is okay by me. Ron ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to the Tottels@Hotmail address. It is for listservs only. >From: SSSCHAEFER@aol.com >Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:46:51 EDT >To: tottels@HOTMAIL.COM >Subject: infinite jest > >Ron: > >Just curious, what did you think of Infinite Jest? You sound like maybe it >didn't hold up for you? I liked it okay but it ain't no Rainbow and it ain't >Absalom, Absalom. > >Standard > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:40:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Byrd Subject: Poetics of the Common Knowledge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel a little like I have been reading other people's mail, but I appreciate all of the kind things that have been said about _The Poetics of the Common Knowledge_. There is a structure. Three androgynes--called Symbolic Nature (Descartes), Symbolic History (Hegel), and Symbol Person (Freud)--the second, in some sense being already the product of the interaction between the first and third-- hop into bed and mother-father twins--together called Symbolic Symbols (information theory), one called the Statistical and the other called the Non-statistical.The Statistical is the reality that Neilsen and Gallop track (the only public reality that is widely recognized; the Non-statistical is the realm of poetry. (There is a sub-version of each chapter that addresses a poet, Duncan, Stein, Zukofsky, and Olson respectively). The non-statistical is non-exemplary. The instance cannot be used to read a group. It holds to the earth not by manifesting nature, history, person, or symbols (language), but by what Anthony Braxton calls in connection with his music "gravitational intrique." I wish I'd had that term when I was writing the book. Again thanks. It is always gratifying to be read. A reader that will stick with a book as long and turgid as PCK is to be doubly appreciated. (By the way, for any prospective readers, there is a little comic relief about half way in, a chapter in which I compare Wallace Stevens and Jackie Gleason--Ralph Kramden). Don ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:08:49 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: The Poetics of the Common Knowledge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even if you've read Don Byrd's book it helps to have read some of the myriad of core texts that Byrd uses. Much of the books appeal for me was the fact that many of the books that Byrd brings to bear in his exegesis were works that I had read especially in the sciences and philosophy. I found the overlap startling and this meager sampling nonetheless reinforced in my mind the sense that Byrd had indeed tapped "the Common Knowledge."---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:37:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Big Poetry Sales Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is the first of several messages that will follow as I find time to type them up. THE SUN & MOON PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY Sun & Moon Press has long been known for its publishing and promotion of a wide-range of contemporary poetic voices. But we recently recognized that some of these voices have been kept prisoner on our shelves, locked away from the very audience for which they were intended. We hope to address this terrible injustice by offering our SUN & MOON PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY. Below is a list (posted in several parts) of some of the books that simply got lost in the shuffler of the Press's poetic proliferation. We are offering these titles for the amazingly low price of $4.00 each plus postage ($1.25 added postage per book). To order simply write the quantity on each line before the title and return to Sun & Moon Press (6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90036) with a check for the cost of books and postage. Help us to free some of these great poetic achievements. _____Will Alexander. ASIA & HAITI (paper, list price $12.95) As a Black American Surrealist poet and painter, Will Alexander has no equal, and his influence is now being felt internationally. Demonstrating the influences of the poets of Negritude, contemporary history and economics, and the forces at play in Alexander's home city of Los Angeles, ASIA & HAITI is, as CUPS wrote, "Truly incendiary." ____ Pierre Alferi. NATURAL GAITS (paper, list price $10.95) If Alexander and his poety is "incendiary," young French poet Pierre Alferi is absolutely "hot." His work has received major acclaim in his homeland, and his editing, with Olivier Cadiot, of LA MéCANIQUE LYRIQUE created a true poetic sensation in Paris. "A geography of silence, formed with stern images--both vibrant and still." --Rhizome ____ Claes Andersson. WHAT BECAME WORDS (paper, list price $11.95) Member of the Finnish Parliment, jazz pianist, literary ac- tivist, former editor of an avant-garde magazine, psychiatrist, and Minister of Culture, Claes Andersson is a wonder, and these poems are trul revelatory: funny, dramatic, philosophical, insightful." A man once thought, in desperation: / The best thing would be to hang myself / in the nearest ocean." ____ Bruce Andrews. GIVE EM ENOUGH ROPE (paper, list price $10.95) Britian's REALITY STUDIOS wrote of this great poetic collection in 1988: "It is a virtuoso technique and a relentless inven- tiveness that enable the ambition of this difficult writing, which delights, inspires and disquiets in its accomplishment." Andrews writes: "Narcissism is like not seeing that there could be a private language of the body which is social -- Guerilla means everyone has the tools to do it." One fourth street vendor, hipster, tent revivalist, academic moralist, and just plain everyman from Dubuque, Andrews gets the blood flowing clear up to the head. ____ Bruce Andrews. I DON'T HAVE ANY PAPAER SO SHUT UP (or, Social Romanticism) (paper, list price $13.95) The noted poet of LOVE SONGS, GETTING READY TO HAVE BEEN FRIGHTENED, EXECUTIVE SUMMARY and numerous other works is up to his politico-spiritual highjinks again in this brilliant book."An energized, headlong glance into the originality of this controversial writer," observed THE WILSON LIBRARY REVIEW upon the 1994 publication of SHUT UP. "Gesalt me out!" ____ Rae Armantrout. MADE TO SEEM (list price, $9.95) Award-winning poety David Bromige wrote: "I would like to be able to write a few elegant sentences on Rae Armantrout's poetry. I admire it tremendously, I love it, I find her to be the finest writer of the short lyric poem in English today. Except that of course it is the anti-lyric. And anti- rhetoric too, anti-elegant sentence, it turns an amused grin -- a veritible medusa of an amused grin -- towards superlatives, towards whatever smacks of flattery, towards the impressionistic, towards what talking-about can do -- or rather, can't do." ____ Rae Armantrout. NECROMANCE (paper, list price $8.95) Noting the "feel" of narrative weaving through Armantrout's great lyrics, the reviewer of THE BLACK WARRIOR REVIEW noted of this 1991 publication: "There is not possibility of giving away the ending, none of what I've written here prepares for her surprises." Elaine Equi observed in THE POETRY PROJECT NEWSLETTER, "In the poetry world where so much depends upon having a style that's easy to categorize, Armantrout makes you believe that there is still such a thing as originality." ____ Ece Ayhan. A BLIND CAT BLACK and ORTHODOXIES (paper, list price $10.95) WORLD LITERATURE TODAY wrote of this publication: "Ece Ayhan (b. 1931) has been a marvelous maverick of Turkish poetry since he erupted on the scene in the 1950s. ...Every element of his poems became esoteric, oblique, indecipherable. ...{But] the language, sometimes deceptively simple, at times staccato, has a way of dazzling with all its obscurities." As for the artists Paul Klee or Arshile Gorky, behind Ayhan's seemingly abstract images "there are subtle and often sly symbols, most of which deal with minority cultures." Whore, homosexual, pederast, betrayer, these are the people of Ayhan's beautifully troubling world. [to be continued soon] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:59:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: SUN & MOON POETRY SALE continued (2) Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is the second installment of our big Sun & Moon Poetry sale ____Djuna Barnes. THE BOOK OF REPULSIVE WOMEN: 8 RHYTHMS AND 5 DRAWINGS (paper, list price $6.95) Originally published in the chapbook series of Bruno of Greenwhich Village in 1915, this renowned volue of poetry presnets portraits of the period--a mother, prostitute, cabaret dancer, and others--which seemed wildly radical in their day, and still reveal the great American writer Barnes's deep roots in the milieu of the New York of the first decade of this century. ____Clark Coolidge. OWN FACE (paper, list price $10.95) First published in 1978, OWN FACE represents a growing shift of that period of Coolidge's career from a more structurally based, abstract writing to a more personal and lyrical work. This book plays with the notion of the self and other, from its cover photography--which is not the author but spelunker Floyd Collins--to its contents, highly charged, seeming personal lyrics, which move always outward to the reader and his own encounter with language. One of the most important of this great Amrican poet's books. ____Henri Deluy. CARNAL LOVE (paper, list price $11.95) One of the most noted of French poets writing today, Henri Deluy, editor of the famed journal ACTION POéTIQUE, explores the various aspects of love in this major collection of poetry, first published in France in 1994, and translated here by Guy Bennett. "Borrowing some of the strategy of Sacher- Mosher, master of erotic suspense, Deluy as found a language chained to law, but nonetheless thrills. You may find yourself willing to be disciplined, but only if your know in advance that desire is most effective when thrown into abeyance," wrote RHIZOME. ____Ray DiPalma. MOCK FANDANGO (paper, list price $5.00) A 20 Pages chapbook of three long poems by noted American poet Ray DiPalma. ____Ray DiPalma. NUMBERS AND TEMPERS: SELECTED EARLY POEMS (paper, list price $11.95) The first comprehensive survey of DiPalma's writing, this book presents a selection of his best work, and shows the fascinating trajectory his poetics have followed over more than two decades. DiPalma's poetry is a carefully chiselled creation of experience that is at once aural, tactile, and visual. He composes with what Jackson Mac Low has described as "Precision and surprise and no nonessentials. Gists and Piths." ____Arkadii Dragomoschenko. XENIA (paper, list price $12.95) "XENIA is an eclectic book, flashing many moods and rhetorics that will deepen and broaden [Dragomoschenko's} appear and perhaps excite further interest in the once hidden Russian avant-garde," observed THE VILLAGE VOICE SUPPLEMENT when this, his second collection in English, first appeared. Since that time Dragomoschenko has been recognized internationally as one of the most important post World War II poets, and his linguistic experimentation hailed as a major poetic achievement. Despite the hard conditions of contemporary Russian culture, he has continued to live in St. Petersburg, the source of much of his poetic energy. Translated by Lyn Hejinian and Elena Balashova. ____Gloria Frym. BY EAR (paper, list price $9.95) This book can be read as a long poem, bound by narrative and by the imperatives of form; each of its sections and each of the poems that constitute the book are complete in themselves. Andrei Codrescu has remarked of Frym's writing: "Frym is one of the finest practitioners of the prose poem." BY EAR demonstrates her mastery of this challenging form. ____Charley George. SUNDAY'S ENDING TOO SOON (paper, list price $10.95) Throughout the 1970s Charley George was active in the Boulder, Colorado scene, which included Ed Dorn, Jack Collum, Allen Gins- berg, Anne Waldman, Reed Bye and many others. Within that group he was recognized as a significant poet, and he gave numerous readings, taught creating writing, and published in some forty magazines. But George was also (of necessity) a business man, a financial analyst for IBM and a jewelry manager for Neiman-Marcus-- all of which stole time from his art. Then suddenly in 1988 he died, at the age of 47, of a heart attack. His poetic legacy is this beautiful volume of poetry, writing not to be missed. ____ Peter Glassgold. BOETHIUS: THE POEM ON THE CONSOLATION OF PHILOSOPHY. (paper, list price $10.95) Surely one of the most ususual books of poetry ever written, Glassgold's BOETHIUS is like no other work in English, a translation out of the Latin into diverse historical Englishings, this work is a kind of "patascholarship" similar to Glassgold's HWAET!, which translated modern and contemporary poetry back into Old English. Here he has overlaid various Old, Middle, and Modern English translations of the great Latin classic, creating a sort of sound-collage to the many translations and the influence of Boethius on English. [to be continued] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 08:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: S&M Sale/Page 3 Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE SUN & MOON PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY BOOKS -continued- No. 3 Remember all books are $4.00 plus $1.25 each for shipping. Send orders to: Sun & Moon Press, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036 ____Charles Bernstein. ROUGH TRADES (paper, list $10.95) Charles Bernstein is, simply put, one of the most influential and widely-read poets of our age. One of the true masters of irony in poetry, Bernstein manages to also infuse each poem with an affirmative vision which verges on the utopian. Containing famed poems such as "On Time and the Line," "The Kiwi Bird in the Kiwi Tree," "Fear of Flipping," and "Blow- Me-Down Etude," ROUGH TRADES is, as THE AMERICAN BOOK REVIEW proclaimed "an exhilarating and liberating work." ____André du Bouche. WHERE HEAT LOOMS (paper, list price $12.95) One of the last of the great modern French poets, du Bouchet's work remains largely untranslated, except for a small edition of poems by Paul Auster, and now, this brilliant new translation by British poet David Mus. An investigation of light and all that is associated with it--fire, white, wind, sky, air, sun, flame--WHERE HEAT LOOMS is a stunning lyrical collection of international importance. ____David Bromige. THE HARBORMASTER OF HONG KONG (paper, list price $10.95) Bromige's more than 25 books have brought him international recognition and awards, including the Watern States Book Award in 1988. THE HARBORMASTER is one of his wittiest and most profound books, a celebration of language in its personal, social, political relations. "Dear / me, an appointment on the far / insists, and in these fists / flower all the meals who / walked us to this well." ____Michael Coffey. ELEMENOPY (paper, list price $10.95) LIBRARY JOURNAL wrote "[Coffee] is a kind of Dadaist or 'dropster punster,' as he calls himself, delighting in all sorts of verbal pyrotechnics, always favoring the 'word over reason,' ...[This work is] replete with puzzles and pleasures." These poems' "energy is invigorating: if the possibilities for forms and kinds of re- lationships in language are endless, then so are our own," wrote PUBLISHERS WEEKLY. ____Norma Cole. MY BIRD BOOK [Littoral Books] (paper, list price $9.95) Published by Littoral Books of Los Angeles, which Sun & Moon Press distributes, MY BIRD BOOK represents Cole's charting of a world where nature and artifice intermingle. "Parabola leads to fable, country as theater, history as scent," "Once we might have sworn we'd met these words before," notes Michael Palmer. "This extra- ordinary gathering proves otherwise." ____Clark Coolidge. THE CRYSTAL TEXT (paper, list price $11.95) Reviewing this book upon its original publication, Bernadette Mayer wrote: "In a world where people are perforce cut off from the mystical cosmic and sublime aesthetic every day, the works Clark Coolidge...provide for us the beauty of some of the intersitial stuff that might weave a perception to change the world back together." One of the most influential of American poets, Collidge is well known for this collection and the numerous others which have helped to change the face of American poetics. ____Charles O. Hartman and Hugh Kenner. SENTENCES (paper, list price $9.95) The child of the playfully perverse marriage of a 19th century grammar school book and a contemporary computer technology, SENTENCES is a surprising lyrical romp. The noted literary scholar and poet Charles O. Hartmann discovered a book titled SENTENCES FOR ANALYSIS AND PARSING, which was used at the Thayer Street Grammar School in Providence, R.I. Hartmann took this book to legendary critic Hugh Kenner, and together they ran it through the TRAVESTY computer program developed by Kenner and Joseph O'Rourke. They ran that result through the DIASTEXT program, based on the "diastic" writings of poet Jackson Mac Low. The result is the wonderfully eccentric book, an inspired collaboration between technology and human literacy. ____Fanny Howe. THE LIVES OF A SPIRIT (cloth, list price 10.95) Composed in what the author describes as "a state of waiting- for-God," a state in which the mind is passavid and yet alert, in which everything matters, and there is no escape-- THE LIVES OF THE SPIRIT is a book of expectation, a kind of contemporary gospel. This book is central to the writings of the major poet and fiction writer, Fanny Howe. ____Benjmain Hollander. THE BOOK OF WHO ARE WAS (paper, list price $10.95) San Francisco poet Benjamin Hollander explores, through a negotiation with poets of the past and present such as Paul Celan, Edmond Jabes, and Anne-Marie Albiach, how to "project memory on stage." Recognizing poetry as a theatrical field, a perfomance so to speak, THE BOOK OF WHO ARE WAS contemplates the process of poetic creation in which it is actually the reader's or spectator's memory that is projected upon the stage or text. As Jordan Davis observed in THE BOSTON BOOK REVIEW: "What is striking in his [Hollander's] poetry is his gift for associated concepts the way other poets associate words. ...Hollander is most himself when he writes others words." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:49:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: 20C. Literature Conference Since this annual conference at the U of Louisville has been mentioned on the list a couple of times recently, it seems the right moment for me to post my annual invitation to send stuff. All the information you need (deadlines, etc.) is on the conference website:www.edu/a-s/cml/xxconf/call99.html We have a creative and a critical keynote (forgive the eminently deconstructible shorthand terms here!) every year, usually one or two "special guests," plus a full program of critical panels and poetry / fiction readings. Robert Creeley is this year's creative keynote; we're working on Donna Haraway for the critical. I don't direct the conference but I am heavily involved at the level of getting speakers, reading proposals, compiling panels, etc. What this means in practice is that it's been a fairly Poetics-list-friendly event in past years, and a lot of list-folks have come. I read critical proposals (read blind); you might as well know in advance that creative submissions go to a rather more conservative group of readers who operate by pretty "mainstream" criteria (just so's you don't get your hopes too high). Deadline (slightly flexible) for submissions is Oct. 1, and the conference takes place the last weekend in February. Elsewise: like Herb Levy, I'll be in NYC end of Sept. (Sat. 9/26, actually) and would also like to hear of any goings-on there. Thanks. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:01:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: FW: PEN Intl President Threatened Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thot this wld be of interest. -- Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent America whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ---------- >From: Lucy Komisar >To: PEN Listserv >Subject: PEN Intl President Threatened >Date: Mon, Sep 7, 1998, 1:43 PM > > > The PEN May Be Mighty, but in Mexico It Gets Bodyguards > > By Molly Moore > Washington Post Foreign Service > Monday, September 7, 1998; Page A17 > > MEXICO CITY-For nine months, Homero Aridjis, a Mexican poet and > international spokesman for freedom of expression, has not stepped out > of his house without the bodyguards that shadow him everywhere: to > poetry readings, to lunch with friends, even to walk his German > shepherd. > > Now, the telephone warnings that prompted the Mexican government to > assign guards to the president of PEN International -- a global > writers' organization -- have escalated with new and more chilling > death threats that reflect a pattern of increasing violence against > Mexican writers and journalists. > > "Despite the enormous political opening in the last two years, it is > still extremely dangerous to be a journalist in Mexico," said Jorge > Zepeda, president of the Society of Journalists, one of two new > Mexican watchdog organizations recently created to assist journalists > and publicize attacks against them. > > Many journalists argue that it is the growing independence and power > of the Mexican media -- fed partially by reforms in Mexico's longtime > one-party political system -- that has provoked the surge in attacks > and threats against journalists and photographers in the past two > years. Once largely pawns of the government, many newspapers and > magazines are professionalizing their staffs and pursuing aggressive > investigations of drug cartels and official corruption. > > In the last 16 months, four journalists have been killed in Mexico in > job-related slayings. Scores have been physically attacked, threatened > or intimidated, making the period one of the most violent for > journalists here in a decade, according to the New York-based > Committee to Protect Journalists. In 1997, threats against journalists > were up 55 percent over the previous year with 187 assaults, threats > and acts of intimidation, Mexico's Network for the Protection of > Journalists reported. > > The attacks have been waged by drug cartels, corrupt law enforcement > officials and old-style political bosses, according to Zepeda, who > said his organization is attempting to "convince Mexican society that > an attack against a journalist is an attack against the whole society > and its right to be well-informed." > > Many of the attacks appear to have been related to the journalists' > aggressive reporting. Benjamin Flores Gonzalez, editor of the > newspaper La Prensa in San Luis Rio Colorado, a town on the border > with the United States, was gunned down and died on the front steps of > his office last July, the target of drug traffickers angered by his > unflinching coverage. A Mexico City journalist was murdered last year > and five others abducted, reportedly by police who resented their > coverage of corruption. > > Mexican authorities have made few arrests in such cases. The telephone > threats received by Aridjis -- one of Mexico's best-known writers and > a frequent government critic -- have been particularly troubling to > journalistic organizations because of his high-profile position as > president of PEN International, the prestigious London-based > organization of poets, novelists and other writers. > > "Homero Aridjis becomes a lightning rod because of his visibility," > said Joel Simon of the Committee to Protect Journalists. > > "We suspect that whoever is behind these calls is trying to inhibit > Mr. Aridjis' activities as a writer, International PEN president, and > an editorial page columnist," the New York-based PEN American Center > wrote in a letter to Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo last week. > "This latest death threat forms part of a disturbing pattern; previous > threatening phone calls also occurred within weeks of a public > appearance by or press interview with Mr. Aridjis regarding human > rights in Mexico and contemporary dangers faced by writers." > > Aridjis, 58, said he doesn't know who is behind the threats. The first > was left on his answering machine at his Mexico City home within hours > of a telephone interview with a Washington Post reporter in which he > discussed a series of grisly kidnappings in the Mexican capital by a > gang that sliced an ear off its victim and sent it to the victim's > family as proof of the abduction. The telephone call was made last > November from The Post's Mexico City bureau to New York City, where > Aridjis was visiting relatives. > > The next morning a voice on his answering machine warned, "Soon you > will die like dogs. . . . I'm going to cut your ears off." Aridjis > said he assumes that Mexican authorities eavesdropped on the > conversation and that the information then somehow found its way to > the kidnappers or their associates. > > When asked if Mexican government agencies routinely tap journalists' > telephones, one administration official replied, "It wouldn't surprise > me if the telephones of some journalists were sometimes tapped." > > Mexican authorities were concerned enough by the threat that they > dispatched three bodyguards to the airport to meet Aridjis when he > returned here. > > Just after midnight on Aug. 17, Aridjis received another message > threatening him as well as his two adult daughters, who were visiting > from the United States. "You'll be sorry. . . . You're going to die > very soon," the caller said. > > "This kind of intimidation creates a climate of uncertainty, a culture > of fear," Aridjis said. "These threats go against freedom of > expression in Mexico." > > He described the threats as a "psychological intimidation" that is > affecting his writing, as well as his everyday activities. "Our life > has changed," he said. "Everyone looks like a suspicious person." > > The PEN American Center and the Committee to Protect Journalists noted > that Aridjis had recently spoken out about lack of respect for freedom > of expression in Mexico at an Ottawa conference on "The Artist and > Human Rights." > > "We are quite worried and taking these threats seriously," said a > spokesman for Zedillo. "We will try to do as much as possible to > help." > > =A9 Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:46:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Randy: That would be a very interesting conference. I fear that I'll be working way too much at that time to get away, sadly. Let me know how it works out for your trip here. SS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:36:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: 20C. Literature Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 7 September l998 Dear Alan SEveral years ago I was an invited guest at your conference to read either my poems or my translations from the French of Prevert (probably both) but I wonder whether your staff may be interested in my reading from my new collection of fiction (out late September) called The Radiant ABsurdity of Desire. It was just reviewed wonderfully in Publishers Weekly (August l7, l998) and has exceptional blurbs on its back cover from the English critic (and senior editor of the New Republic ) James Wood as well as from Alan Sillitoe and the trranslator and theater director Barbara Bray. If you are not the person for the creative reader selection, please be kind enough to show this letter to the proper person. And good luck to you! Sincerely Harriet Zinnes HZinnes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: Re: Depressed yet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980907002555.0095ae10@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" free computer and Internet account would ease my depression a great deal / and i'd finally be able to buy some new clothes "The Carnegie Mellon study is part of HomeNet, a $1.5 million project in which 93 Pittsburgh families were given free computers and Internet accounts." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PaperBrainPress http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:18:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Depressed yet? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is an article debunking this study in salon magazine (www.salonmagazine.com). It makes some of the obvious critiques that might have already occured to most of us webizens. It appears to be a classic "before and after" study: have some people fill out questionnaires, give them computers and access to the web, and then give them the same survey after a predetermined time. The results were not even that significant statistically speaking. Also, there was apparently no control group. (e.g. give another group free Faulkner novels or Silliman poems, or force them to listen to Talk of the Nation every day, or any number of other activities; THEN compare.) Or else simply give a control group the same questionnaire after two months, after having done nothing in particular. Maybe some portion of the population will get depressed anyway because of some other factor (cloudy Pittsburgh weather, vicissitudes of the Steelers or Pirates, etc...). It wouldn't have to be a very significant portion to match the result of this badly flawed study. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 20:22:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: generic backchannel To whom it may concern: thanks for reading my poems. In response to your invitation, I would like to attend, please send $$$. George, are you still there in Biffalong? Yes, send me 3 copies - I will gladly pay you Tuesday. Hi, Jennifer!! Hey Bill, where IS that shuffleboard you mentioned on the list? - your buddy, Blank ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:00:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: crosses project for indigenous peoples Comments: To: fop-l@vm.cc.purdue.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *this was forwarded from denmark...posted to this list by encouraged permission... *write hans for more information, if wanted... peter ganick ____________________________invitation_____________________________ ORIGIN PROJECT: after 500 years of genocide and colonialism in 1992 now we are starting the third millennium with + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + CROSSES FROM THE WORLD - - - -Homage To Indigenous Peoples + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + p l e a s e s e n d y o u r c r o s s ( any media ) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + In the year 2000 all entries will be installed horizontally over the mother earth in the north/south and east/west directions in Santiago de Chile. Possibly exhibitions in other places. This networking art project counts with the participation from at least 100 artists around the planet. No returns of the works ! No Jury ! The whole project will be pass to the archive of Hans Braumueller or donated to some indigenous institution or museum. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + DEADLINE: 1 JANUARY 1999 Send your cross to the chilean contactaddress: Hans Braumueller, Los Almendros 3898, Nunoa - Santiago, CHILE or: artcross@geocities.com + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:11:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: crosses project for indigenous peoples In-Reply-To: <35F48192.F7F7AB88@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In 1992 I was in Guatemala, where those identified as indigenes (indio is a slur, india has among its informal meanings prostitute) in a population almost all of which is native genetically are only the practitioners of the aboriginal cultures. I neither saw nor heard any discussion of the great tragedy that the "discovery" was for native peoples. Instead, I was shocked by signs all over the non-indigene parts of the country proclaiming the five hundredth anniversary of the introduction of the road to salvation. Talk about a conquest. At 09:00 PM 9/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >*this was forwarded from denmark...posted to this list >by encouraged permission... > >*write hans for more information, if wanted... > >peter ganick > > >____________________________invitation_____________________________ >ORIGIN PROJECT: >after 500 years of genocide and colonialism in 1992 now we are starting >the third millennium with >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + >+ + >CROSSES FROM THE WORLD - - - -Homage To Indigenous Peoples >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + >+ + >p l e a s e s e n d y o u r c r o s s ( any media ) >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + >+ + >In the year 2000 all entries will be installed horizontally over the >mother earth in the >north/south and east/west directions in Santiago de Chile. >Possibly exhibitions in other places. >This networking art project counts with the participation from at least >100 artists around the planet. >No returns of the works ! No Jury ! >The whole project will be pass to the archive of Hans Braumueller >or donated to some indigenous institution or museum. >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + >+ + >DEADLINE: 1 JANUARY 1999 >Send your cross to the chilean contactaddress: >Hans Braumueller, Los Almendros 3898, Nunoa - Santiago, CHILE >or: artcross@geocities.com >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + >+ + > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: 20C. Literature Conference Comments: To: Harriet Zinnes In-Reply-To: <1e5a7129.35f435bf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Harriet -- Would the Alan Sillitoe be the same as wrote "Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner", and who along with Philip Larkin and Seamus Heaney populated my young, impressionable years? (You only need answer the first prt of that question.) I always had a horrible suspicion that he had rung up the curtain and joined the choir invisible, along with beloved Larkin, and, living in the States now, I've had trouble coming by evidence to the contrary. From your comment, it appears he is still reading. Is he still writing? -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu lydianmode@ucsd.com On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Harriet Zinnes wrote: > 7 September l998 > > Dear Alan > > SEveral years ago I was an invited guest at your conference to read either my > poems or my translations from the French of Prevert (probably both) but I > wonder whether your staff may be interested in my reading from my new > collection of fiction (out late September) called The Radiant ABsurdity of > Desire. It was just reviewed wonderfully in Publishers Weekly (August l7, > l998) and has exceptional blurbs on its back cover from the English critic > (and senior editor of the New Republic ) James Wood as well as from Alan > Sillitoe and the trranslator and theater director Barbara Bray. > > If you are not the person for the creative reader selection, please be kind > enough to show this letter to the proper person. And good luck to you! > > Sincerely > > Harriet Zinnes > > HZinnes@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:03:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: papers for 20th-century literature conference (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199809050407.AAA04361@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:14:07 -0700 >From: Stephen Cope > >I've always heard great things about this conference (annual or >semi-annual, I think). I always thought it was Alan Golding who ran it, >but perhaps things have changed. It sounds like an intersting topic, and >complimentary to the conference here at San Diego that's taking place >this coming March. (More on this later). it's annual -- every february. alan doesn't "run" it per se but is on the organizing committee and therefore accepts papers, gets excellent poets to read there (haryette mullen last year), and hosts smashing good parties. t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Slipping Through the Cracks (Orientation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Slipping Through the Cracks Orientation from Herodotus II, 36: "When they write or calculate, instead of going, like the Greeks, from left to right, they move their hand from right to left; and they insist, notwithstanding, that it is they who go to the right and the Greeks who go to the left." Quotes from Henry George Fischer, The Orientation of Hieroglyphs, Part I. Reversals, Egyptian Studies II, The Metropolitan Museum of Art: Of Nefertiti: "Even in the Karnak scenes where she alone worships the Aten her name is invariably preceded by a reference to Akhenatan in her title [fig.] 'great wife of the king, whom he loves.' And much more frequently, her cartouche follows two of his, which are in turn confronted by the names of Aten [...]. Thus the reversal in her cartouche may indicate that her husband is the source of her contact with the god. There is, in this relationship, something of the Miltonian concept: 'Hee for God only, shee for God in him,' although they shared 'Thir Orisons, each Morning duly paid.'" "As shown by his gesture of invocation, the king himself pronounces the offering formula in front of him, all of which is oriented as he is, ex- cept for the name of the divine recipient." "Quite possibly, in view of the adjacent juxtaposition displayed by the adjacent caption, 'singing to the harp,' the missing object of the prepo- sition was thought to be supplied by the opposed representation of danc- ing, with the figures facing left." "Among the repertory of hieroglyphs in common use, as represented in Gardiner's Sign List, there are a few exceptions to the usual orientation - exceptions, moreover, for which no explanation has been offered. The most perplexing of these are the inverted staff, the sail that is blown backwards, the reversed boat [...]." [hieroglyphs and references omitted] What are signs, that they may be stayed upon the head, faced within the mirror, transformed from outside-in, absolved from inside-out? What is the materiality of the sign so lost and constituted in these forms, where < and > are not oppositions but independent, assigned different and variant encodings? One might reference calligraphy in general, the running style of kanji, and see Jan Assmann's Ancient Egypt and the Materiality of the Sign, in Materialities of Communication (eds. Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht and K. Ludwig Pfeiffer). [I come towards you. I approach you. I leave by the moon. I go from the cave. The world goes with me. Your sight bedazzles me. How can I return when your sight is imprinted on mine, eye to eye?] What is the history of the sign and token, from Sumerian tabulations and clay impresses - through the pressure of edged reeds, rock incisions, brush and penstrokes? I've spoken repeatedly about these elements; one might also consider a _wavering hieroglyphic_ in which each and every sign might face one or another direction, in relation to portent, to the divin- atio at work as the superstructure breaks loose from the world, recuper- ates the word as construct of the gods. "In two Old Kingdom tomb chapels, where the owner of a tomb addresses mem- bers of his family in order to give them testamentary instructions, the orientation of his statement is reversed, along with the words that intro- duce the statement." Perhaps you break through the lines; I _must_ face you, regardless of the consequences, regarding your mien, in due regard for your truth in its place, breaking down the symbolic, transforming it into a certain surplus. I have no regard for the orientation. I'm always facing you in my dreams. Making love face to face. Watching. Looking. Being observed. "Instead of turning an entire statement around, together with the words introducing it, the scribes of the Old Kingdom sometimes applied the re- versal solely to the introductory word [...] 'he says,' following the speaker's titles and name, in order to point up the fact that the following words were a direct quotation." Perhaps I dream your breath, hear your voice coming from the left or right or within me, an insistence toppling even the vacuity of avatars, returning your flesh across the queendoms of distributed networks. You speak so softly, I bend towards you, my ear against your belly. What is heard in the smooth convexity of spheres, planets, earths. "Old Kingdom lists of offerings (from Dynasty III onward) are very common- ly turned so that the hieroglyphs address the person for whom they are in- tended." "Here the reversal may have been intended to stress the roundabout orien- tation of a river that flows south instead of north, as the Nile does." "Writings of _`kprt_ 'entering and coming forth.'" Conceivably I do not know whether I am coming or going, towards or away from you; my hand trembles, the brush goes every whichaway across the parchment, the signs _spill._ Perhaps I enter you, come forth through a portal whose destination remains unknown; I am faced left, right, or in- verted, I lose my way, Virgil nowhere to be found. "The first two dynasties provide evidence for all three of the basic situ- ations requiring reversals - confrontation, symmetry, and concordance - including several uses of hieroglyphic confrontations that are frequent in later periods, notably the opposition of various elements of the royal protocol and the opposition of the names of a divinity and of a king." Facing you, I face myself; joining you, I join myself; becoming you, I no longer separate such residues, things, stains and processes. Language wrapping allowing all entering. Direction from the sphere. ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:15:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re infinite jest but not really Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ron, now time enough has passed for us-all to introduce to ourselves meanings from your books, isn't it time for the Footnoted Ketjak and Tjanting? From U.C. Press, or leastways some place they have lots of paper and ink? You could use footnotes from everyone's suggestions, or supply them all yourself. I would read this volume before I read F's Wake again. Hands up all who feel likewise. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:15:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re generic backchannel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Way to go, Henry! Brevity is still the soul of wit, and good wit should hurt a bit. May I suggest a postscript: Oops! David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:57:06 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Slipping Through the Cracks (Orientation) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > - > > Slipping Through the Cracks > > Orientation from Herodotus II, 36: "When they write or calculate, instead > of going, like the Greeks, from left to right, they move their hand from > right to left; and they insist, notwithstanding, that it is they who go to > the right and the Greeks who go to the left." > > Quotes from Henry George Fischer, The Orientation of Hieroglyphs, Part I. > Reversals, Egyptian Studies II, The Metropolitan Museum of Art: > > Of Nefertiti: "Even in the Karnak scenes where she alone worships the Aten > her name is invariably preceded by a reference to Akhenatan in her title > [fig.] 'great wife of the king, whom he loves.' And much more frequently, > her cartouche follows two of his, which are in turn confronted by the > names of Aten [...]. Thus the reversal in her cartouche may indicate that > her husband is the source of her contact with the god. There is, in this > relationship, something of the Miltonian concept: 'Hee for God only, shee > for God in him,' although they shared 'Thir Orisons, each Morning duly > paid.'" > > "As shown by his gesture of invocation, the king himself pronounces the > offering formula in front of him, all of which is oriented as he is, ex- > cept for the name of the divine recipient." > > "Quite possibly, in view of the adjacent juxtaposition displayed by the > adjacent caption, 'singing to the harp,' the missing object of the prepo- > sition was thought to be supplied by the opposed representation of danc- > ing, with the figures facing left." > > "Among the repertory of hieroglyphs in common use, as represented in > Gardiner's Sign List, there are a few exceptions to the usual orientation > - exceptions, moreover, for which no explanation has been offered. The > most perplexing of these are the inverted staff, the sail that is blown > backwards, the reversed boat [...]." [hieroglyphs and references omitted] > > What are signs, that they may be stayed upon the head, faced within the > mirror, transformed from outside-in, absolved from inside-out? What is the > materiality of the sign so lost and constituted in these forms, where < > and > are not oppositions but independent, assigned different and variant > encodings? One might reference calligraphy in general, the running style > of kanji, and see Jan Assmann's Ancient Egypt and the Materiality of the > Sign, in Materialities of Communication (eds. Hans Ulrich Gumbrecht and K. > Ludwig Pfeiffer). > > [I come towards you. I approach you. I leave by the moon. I go from the > cave. The world goes with me. Your sight bedazzles me. How can I return > when your sight is imprinted on mine, eye to eye?] > > What is the history of the sign and token, from Sumerian tabulations and > clay impresses - through the pressure of edged reeds, rock incisions, > brush and penstrokes? I've spoken repeatedly about these elements; one > might also consider a _wavering hieroglyphic_ in which each and every sign > might face one or another direction, in relation to portent, to the divin- > atio at work as the superstructure breaks loose from the world, recuper- > ates the word as construct of the gods. > > "In two Old Kingdom tomb chapels, where the owner of a tomb addresses mem- > bers of his family in order to give them testamentary instructions, the > orientation of his statement is reversed, along with the words that intro- > duce the statement." > > Perhaps you break through the lines; I _must_ face you, regardless of the > consequences, regarding your mien, in due regard for your truth in its > place, breaking down the symbolic, transforming it into a certain surplus. > > I have no regard for the orientation. I'm always facing you in my dreams. > Making love face to face. Watching. Looking. > > Being observed. > > "Instead of turning an entire statement around, together with the words > introducing it, the scribes of the Old Kingdom sometimes applied the re- > versal solely to the introductory word [...] 'he says,' following the > speaker's titles and name, in order to point up the fact that the > following words were a direct quotation." > > Perhaps I dream your breath, hear your voice coming from the left or > right or within me, an insistence toppling even the vacuity of avatars, > returning your flesh across the queendoms of distributed networks. You > speak so softly, I bend towards you, my ear against your belly. What is > heard in the smooth convexity of spheres, planets, earths. > > "Old Kingdom lists of offerings (from Dynasty III onward) are very common- > ly turned so that the hieroglyphs address the person for whom they are in- > tended." > > "Here the reversal may have been intended to stress the roundabout orien- > tation of a river that flows south instead of north, as the Nile does." > > "Writings of _`kprt_ 'entering and coming forth.'" > > Conceivably I do not know whether I am coming or going, towards or away > from you; my hand trembles, the brush goes every whichaway across the > parchment, the signs _spill._ Perhaps I enter you, come forth through a > portal whose destination remains unknown; I am faced left, right, or in- > verted, I lose my way, Virgil nowhere to be found. > > "The first two dynasties provide evidence for all three of the basic situ- > ations requiring reversals - confrontation, symmetry, and concordance - > including several uses of hieroglyphic confrontations that are frequent in > later periods, notably the opposition of various elements of the royal > protocol and the opposition of the names of a divinity and of a king." > > Facing you, I face myself; joining you, I join myself; becoming you, I no > longer separate such residues, things, stains and processes. Language > wrapping allowing all entering. Direction from the sphere. > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Interesting post, Alan. Do you know R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz's _The Temple in Man_? It mentions a 'transparency' inscription on opposite sides of the same stone in the wall between two rooms at Luxor: "The wall's characteristic of _transparency_, placing the hieroglyph for cloths of room 12 in the symbol for 'box of cloths' represented in room 5, would suffice to establish a relationship between the symbols for cloths and the olfactory bulb. To this is added the characteristic of what weaving represents as a symbol--that is to say, the _interlacing of threads_, just as the nerves are interlaced so as to make perceptible the contacts of the individual with the environment. Thus, we frequently find the symbol for cloths in these three secret sanctuaries. Figure 42 shows clearly what I am suggesting here. The olfactory bulb, with the olfactory tract splitting in two, constitutes an organ whose image is identical to the symbol for cloths...." (103). The approach to the temples of Egypt as detailed mappings of human anatomy recalls the Eassons' discussion of Blake's _Milton_ as modeled on the physiology of the optical system. Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 03:54:51 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Book Jackets as WWW model Content-Type: text/plain I found this article from First Monday, a Danish site for computer/society sorts of stuff, to be worth reading. It made me think about all the book jackets I've had in a new light. www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue3_9/oconner/ Ron ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to the Tottels@Hotmail address. It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:06:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: queries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Queries: 1.I'm looking for Kristeva's essay entitled "The Poet and the Sun." Could someone inform me where i can find it? 2. I understand Rothenberg has an essay on Bloom. Does anyone know where it is located? 3.I'm not sure about this, but i heard Rothenberg is giving a reading in NYC soon. Is this true? If so, where & when? 4.Does anyone know the publication plans for Mina Loy's long poem (don't know the title)? Much appreciated, RQ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:33:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: Re: queries(Kristeva) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Here are a couple of possibilities for "Poet and the Sun". there's a brief chapter in Tales of Love (1983, 1987 in English) titled "Bataille and the Sun, or the Guilty Text". Or maybe you're thinking about her book Black Sun? Or maybe I'm missing the boat and someone else will clue us in. Randy backchannel if either of these are what you are looking for and you want more details ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: queries Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ramez Ejaz Qureshi asked: >2. I understand Rothenberg has an essay on Bloom. Does anyone know where i= t is >located? it's called "The Critic as Exterminating Angel" and was published in SULFUR #2, in 1981. >3.I'm not sure about this, but i heard Rothenberg is giving a reading in N= YC >soon. Is this true? If so, where & when? Not sure where -- Poetry Project, most likely. On Tuesday 15 September there will be a reading around the 2nd volume of POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM at 7:30 p.m. at the Astor Place Barnes & Noble, with Rothenberg, myself, Bernstein, Andrews, Tarn, Vicu=F1a, Weinberger & others. Will post more info later in the week. Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent America whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 04:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Sales books/4 Sun & Moon Press Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sun & Moon sale page 4 Order from Sun & Moon Press 6026 Wilshire Boulevard Los Angeles, CA 90036 djmess@sunmoon.com Remember, all books are just $4.00 plus $1.25 each shipping. ____Ted Greenwald. WORLD OF MOUTH (paper, list price $8.95) Ted Greenwald is a major American poet, straddling influences from both the New York School Poetry and "Language" writing. This is one Greenwald's most important collections. As Bruce Andrews wrote of it, upon its original publication. "This is language, direct." ____Dennis Phillips. ARENA (paper, list price $10.95) Phillips' third book of poetry places the reader in the rec- ognizable terrain of the West -- both the West of the once- dominant mythos of European tradition and the final diffusion of that mythos at the edge of the North American continent. In this "arena" civilization battles itself: "The ocean is rough in a spot / where tractors and earthmovers / herd strings of men. / It is a foreign country. / They build or destroy the street." ____Douglas Messerli. MAXIMS FROM MY MOTHER'S MILK/HYMNS TO HIM Through the two matched sequences of poets of this, Messerli's fourth book of poetry, the author probes the dialogue between male and female, wife and husband, mother and father, the masculine and feminine psyches of his own being. ____Gil Ott. THE YELLOW FLOOR: POEMS 1978-1983 (paper, list price 6.95) Beautiful lyrics that mix song and sentiment in fresh ways by Philadelphia poet Ott. "held at my / perimeter / that is the force of my / desire / sun / weaving of branches / the larger body / that is." ____Tom Mandel. LETTERS OF THE LAW (paper, list price $10.95) Tom Mandel focuses on the notion of "law" in both the spiritual and social senses. Mixing religious fables and folktales, personal lyrics, social commentary, and songs of sorrow and joy, Mandel interweaves the laws that encompass each one of us in our searches for meaning in our lives. ____Clarence Major. SOME OBSERVATIONS OF A STRANGER AT ZUNI IN THE LATTER PART OF THE CENTURY (paper, list price $9.95) These poems by poet and novelist Clarence Major, were inspired by his time with the Zuni Indians and by the memories of stories told by his grandparents of the Indians of his own ancentry. ____Nick Piombino. POEMS (paper, list price $8.95) The 31 poems of this collection demonstrate Piombino's commitment to and his experience with a language that maps a path of the speaker's "person need to articulate his perceptions." Piombino's language, in the context of his poetics, acts as "prognostication, presage, sign." ____Tom Raworth. ETERNAL SECTIONS (paper, list price $9.95) One of British poet Raworth's most important collections, the writing of this book is at once narratively based and is radically disjunctive, a writing that at every moment seems to be pushing away from the line previous but suddenly snaps back into a logical whole and transforms the meaning and the reader's experience. ____Martha Ronk. STATE OF MIND (paper, list price $10.95) The poets of STATE OF MIND are in transit from one state of mind to another as geographies (especially Californian) slide into states of mind, statements of "fact" into memory or metaphor. A brilliant work from an excellent poet. More to come later today. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:22:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry In-Reply-To: <199809080403.WAA02493@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Interesting: <> Anne Carson, because published in the US is an "American" poet, but there's no mention of Daphne Marlatt, Lisa Robertson, so many others. So it goes, especially for Canadian poets published only by small Canadian presses, I guess... Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 Arrested for intent to denote this line. This lodestar being visible only to the discerning eye. The disconcerting eye. Christopher Dewdney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:35:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: 20C. Literature Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 8 September l998 Simon -- Absolutely the same Alan Sillitoe -- and many books since! Harriet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: garden of paradox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not my cute phrase but the Harvard Business Review's, for the public-at-large's reaction to any new technology -- it saves time/it consumes more time, it answers old needs/it creates new needs -- the notice goes on -- anyway, Anselm, I've been depressed since I learned how to use the can opener, but it cheered me up to know I didn't have to clench my teeth to brush them well -- and even more to learn that brushing without toothpaste is as important as brushing with it -- maybe it's only that any paradox is depressing? L=poetics&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=1441, Jordan unrelated note on paradox: D.H. Lawrence's poem about Shakespeare, silly people speaking so beautifully -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:49:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Re: Robert Creeley Reading at Naropa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Creeley reading is at 8pm (MST) - did I forget to post that? Oops thanks for letting me know- Lisa Trank ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:57:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: Re: BIG POETRY SALE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" When does Lee Ann Brown's Polyverse get to be free? A. Berrigan >THE SUN & MOON PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY > >Sun & Moon Press has long been known for its publishing >and promotion of a wide-range of contemporary poetic voices. >But we recently recognized that some of these voices have >been kept prisoner on our shelves, locked away from the >very audience for which they were intended. We hope to >address this terrible injustice by offering our SUN & MOON >PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Sideshow at the Carnival (Good night) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear David: The Student server is up now, and I see, late in the day, that Araby has been taken down. OK. But before I go home with all my busted illusions, may I ask you one last virtual tough-guy question: Dude, how do you do that? For in one tent you are "The Blades of Glass Whirling and Warning Cannibal Who Eats The Wife for Dessert" and then next tent (voila!) you are "The Sad and Aggrieved Elephant Man." In the gone and melodramatic game of youth you cede the victory to me; in the greater game of the postmodern ping-pong, I cede the victory, hats off, to you. For in the latter, who can return a Champion's shot that starts on the table and then rockets bizarrely backwards into the gallery at the Champion's back? May I say Bravo along with the rest? May I say, stunned and admiring, that "you've earned it"? (Sorry, I see I've asked you more than one question. I really don't mean them as tough-guy serves or returns-- just a paddle, now, making whooshing sounds in the carnival air.) But please, no matter what, keep the book. I really hadn't thought about the blurb thing for a long time. You were asked way back then because I felt you were one freak of a poet. Still do. But now book is dead. Dead, dead, dead. Too late, too late... Oh, well!!! And maybe I'll see you at Orono. May we both say, "Pleased to make you acquaintance," then sit down together, have a beer, talk about our families, and suck on the insect-like legs of lobsters with all our might. love, Kent, "The Camel Boy" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:11:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Anne Carson, because published in the US is an "American" poet, but there's >no mention of Daphne Marlatt, Lisa Robertson, so many others. So it goes, >especially for Canadian poets published only by small Canadian presses, I >guess... > >Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] >492 2181 >Department of English >University of Alberta >Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 > On at least one of her books, Anne Carson's complete "biography" is "Anne Carson lives in Canada." Which makes the "American" designation particularly odd. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:34:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Davidson's catch Content-Type: text/plain Am I the only one who's noticed that the fellow who came up with Mark McGwire's 61st home run yesterday is named Michael Davidson? Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:05:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Organization: Mary Baldwin College Subject: Re: infinite jest for those who love(d) to be astonied MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My hand is up. I wrote a long chapter on Sunset Debris, Ketjak (I have “Y’—ordered it in the nick of time, I guess—what IS a “nick of time”?), Tjanting, and Paradise in a dissertation that is appropriately buried in the basement of my grad school’s library. One of its readers was the occasionally-vilified-on-this-list Ron Wallace (who is pretty much a nice guy, as I remember him), who signed the diss while dissing the topic with “you haven’t convinced me to read any of this stuff” (it was clearly a powerful and convincing piece of scholarship). A challenge issued by Eli Goldblatt (to drop another name familiar to some people on this list) inspired me to read the books that led to my dissertation, so blame him for this post (I had thought I would work on--get this--Galway Kinnell when I started grad school). I also post for the self-indulgent purpose of having someone besides the four members of my dissertation committee read this stuff (in fact, I am not convinced they read it) that I had so much fun figuring out. While in my first fulltime faculty job, I offered a colloquium on langpo to a department that had never heard of langpo (the liberal arts minor leagues) and used Sunset Debris (which is ecriture feminine, by the way—astonishing the things that get into that 20th C. conference) as a central part of the presentation. I explained how one intention of the text, according to the author in some interview published somewhere, was to impose upon the reader the violence of which language is capable. One of my colleagues took the book to the county jail, where he was working with inmates, and he reported to me that the inmates found that violence in the text and felt that it was like their sense of having been fucked over (an appropriate rather than offensive choice of words, given the text) by their worlds. That, for me, was evidence for my belief that langpo works outside the overeducated, underemployed audience (see “A hopeful note?”, whatever its irony) (where do I get this idea of audience from?—I am sure RS wrote this once, but I can’t remember where. In any case, a pretty good reason for an ABD person to get interested) for which it was intended. As for those footnotes, or at least the sorts of minutia that make for footnotes (stop reading now if such minutia bore you), here are some of mine, though perhaps not quite what DB has in mind. I used the minutia to support some argument but the real point for me was just figuring out this stuff. I actually counted all of the sentences in Ketjak (I gave up on Tjanting, at least to a point). This counting gave me great pleasure (“Gaiety transfiguring all that dread”—my answer to an earlier “Huh?”), strange as that might be (my greatest pleasure in McGwire’s 61 is that he hit it on his father’s 61st birthday, not that he hit it—if only his father’s birthday would have been June 1st, I would have taken even greater pleasure, and the pitching in the league would have been really bad). So here are my footnotes unburied from the library basement for anyone who is interested, pretty much lifted whole from the dissertation, where they weren't footnotes, though maybe they should have been. Silliman describes the form of Ketjak in an interview with Larry McCaffery and Sinda Gregory: ""Ketjak" itself is a musical form--it's the Balinese version of the Ramayana myth, with as many as two hundred singers. It's essentially a choral form, and I was interested in the concept of the cumulative effort. . . . . Ketjak is structured so that every paragraph has twice as many sentences as the previous paragraph, with every other sentence being a repetition of the sentences (in exactly the same order) from the previous paragraph." (247, 248) He is lying or at best telling a partial truth. Three times he leaves out sentences that appeared in the previous paragraph, once from the fourth to fifth paragraph, and twice from the eleventh to the twelfth paragraph, where both omissions are on the same page (80). These omissions break down the structure so that the fifth paragraph, which should have sixteen sentences according to the given method of paragraph extension, has ONLY FOURTEEN SENTENCES.. Twice he places two sentences side by side in successive paragraphs, the first time by simple repetition: "Modal rounders. A sequence of objects, silhouettes, which to him appears to be a caravan of fellaheen, a circus, dromedaries pulling wagons bearing tiger cages, fringed surreys, tamed ostriches in toy hats, begins a slow migration to the right vanishing point on the horizon" (5, 6); and the second time by making two sentences into one: "A learned solitude, constantly in the head looking out. Constantly waking, new day" (33) becomes "A learned solitude, in the head looking out, constantly waking, new day" (63). He also occasionally inserts two new sentences between sentences from the preceding paragraph. In one span of insertions (61-64) in the twelfth and final paragraph (48-93), the inserted sentences have appeared before as the seventh paragraph (5-7). Here’s another note re the first quoted paragraph from the interview quoted above. This community-centered production--"the concept of cumulative effort" noted by Silliman in his comments on the form of this poem--sets up a metaphor for reading contained in the title of the work. "Ketjak" is a Balinese dance with a basis in traditional forms of dance and choral music, but the form itself was invented for a 1931 movie through the collaboration of Balinese dancers and Walter Spies, a Russo-German artist and musician (Ramseyer 239). The variable and collaborative nature of this and other Balinese dances suggests a method of reading Silliman's Ketjak. Beryl de Zoete in collaboration with (how nicely that fits the discussion) Walter Spies gives what could be a model for the communal production of Silliman's Ketjak in noting the nature of Balinese dance, its "constant changes and exchanges which are always going on, out of a native impulse to create and experiment. Balinese dance is not static or uniform, and there are almost as many ways of doing one thing as there are villages which do it. . . . The traditional framework remains, but the elements have a different emphasis and perhaps a different distribution." (44) Dancing in Bali can be a product of any person; "just as one hour does not stand out from another with insistent individuality, nor does the activity which we call dancing. A dancer may be a fisherman, a wood-carver, a goldsmith" (5). (More Yeats here.) It might be pertinent to recall Gertrude Stein's assertion that "everybody has to be a poet" ("Poetry and Grammar" 237). I may have taken the significance of the title of Ketjak further than Silliman intends it, but such taking may very well be what he intends. He has asserted that "a text is equally situated through the life of the reader" as through the life of the author. He writes with this recognition firmly in view so that his works "come into play only in the presence of the collaborator who opens the text. It is through this interaction, the reading process, that a work can be said to exist in the world, a complex event with multiple actors, and an event which changes with each reading." ("Interview" with Tom Beckett 46) The constantly developing existence of the text "in the world" reflects the metaphor of the ketjak, which varies from performance to performance and place to place and does not distinguish individually between performers: "to seek a consecutive theme in the wandering voices, the cracked strings and wailing cries, the various fragments of solo which occur during the dance, is a vain quest" (de Zoete and Spies 85). Minutial Tjanting: For the first parts of alternating paragraphs, the sentences new to the paragraphs occur between two sentences from the previous odd or even paragraph, which is similar to the progression of Ketjak except that this insertion goes on in two different sets of sentences. But if this were all that happened to the paragraphs, the Fibonnacci series would have to be broken and Tjanting would be a simple doubling of the form of the earlier poem. Instead, Tjanting goes beyond Ketjak by completing the paragraphs with sentences entirely new to the poem. It will be easier to see how this works by looking at the numbers of sentences that should occur in separate paragraphs of Tjanting. The twelfth paragraph has (or should have) 144 sentences. These sentences should be doubled in the fourteenth paragraph by inserting a new sentence between each of the existing sentences. They are doubled in such a way, but that gives paragraph fourteen a total of 288 sentences, far short of the 377 needed to keep the series intact. In order to follow the progression of the series, Silliman adds 89 sentences to the end of the paragraph. This goes on until the nineteenth paragraph, which, being the last paragraph, needs 987 sentences to complete the series, sentences that have no space in which to be repeated (this paragraph stretches across 86 pages and should contain 4181 sentences, though I have not counted--my obsession with counting has its limits). The first of these 987 unrepeated sentences is "An end to rewriting" (191). I find this hilarious. Tjanting further demonstrates this expansion, and its doubling of Ketjak, by including sentences from the earlier work, usually with significant alterations. "A tenor sax is a toy" (Ketjak 4) and "A tenor sax is a weapon" (Ketjak 5) become "Shit is a toy" and "Shit is a weapon" (T 51). "Revolving door" (Ketjak passim) revolves into Tjanting as "Revolving dork" (156) and "Revolting door" (182). "A day of rain in the middle of June" (Ketjak 4ff.) becomes, surprisingly, "A day of rain in the middle of June" (Tjanting 100), which serves the purpose of making the ordinary remarkable, exactly what Silliman's "gleeful specificity" does for all the odd but ordinary details he brings into his poems. He does return to the usual, however, when he again (mis)quotes the sentence as "A day of June in the middle of rain" (Tjanting 183), which has its own queer referential sense, the inverse (almost) of which is the reference of the original sentence. The "embeddedness" suggested by one of Silliman's puns surfaces not only when Tjanting incorporates individual sentences from Ketjak into its paragraphs but when it includes a whole paragraph from the earlier poem. Silliman embeds the fifth or the sixth paragraph of Ketjak--which paragraph it is depends on how you look at the embedding--in the nineteenth paragraph of Tjanting, making it a part of Tjanting by performing the same sort of mutations on the sentences lifted from the earlier work as he has on the sentences original (this term is used advisedly, with an awareness of how Silliman uses many found and allusory sentences) to the later work. Though he may repeat nearly the same words, he reorders them, sometimes to the point that their reference is completely different. I also did a limited survey comparing percentages of various grammatical structures in the “sentences” of Ketjak and Tjanting, using four categories—complete sentences, noun phrases, other grammatical phrases, and ungrammatical constructions. There was a point to doing this, but I have forgotten what it was. I am glad to have done it, however. I counted these two, among other strangenesses, as complete sentences: "The way new stretches shoot out." and "Forms crab forth." Transfiguration. I could plum the structure of Paradise a bit, but too much is enough, and besides, the most beautiful of all the carpenter’s tools is the level. I will wonder if the reference to Ron Hanson hasn't been outdated for a few years now. Who should it be in the next edition? I can't remember. Can anypne help? Finally (finally!), two questions: Is Silliman (Paradise) quoting Hejinian (My Life) or vice-versa or are they both quoting someone else with “For those who love to be astonished”? Who has A-X and Z--what sort of alphabet would that be? david bromige wrote: > Ron, now time enough has passed for us-all to introduce to ourselves > meanings from your books, isn't it time for the Footnoted Ketjak and > Tjanting? From U.C. Press, or leastways some place they have lots of paper > and ink? You could use footnotes from everyone's suggestions, or supply > them all yourself. I would read this volume before I read F's Wake again. > Hands up all who feel likewise. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:12:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re davidson's catch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No, Ron, you are not alone in remarking that one Mike Davidson caught #61. However, unless #62 is caught by a Michael Palmer, it isn't a big coincidence. There are several Michael Davidsons in the halls of fame/notoriety. Our MD told me that there is another MD who is a writer of (closet homosexual?) novels. (That is maybe correct--it's been a while since we had that conversation). I think our MD's wife-to-be stumbled upon him while in a library search for the other MD. Now we have a 3rd MD to deal with, because this #61 dude bears little resemblance to the Adonis scholar & poet of San Diego. In fact, he looks his complete opposite. But both have good hand-eye coordination? No, this guy didnt catch it, he won a scramble for it under some seats. Btw, has anyone else remarked the ubiquity of McGwire facial hair arrangements throughout both leagues? Not ginger, always, of course. Last night a Giant pitched to a Padre and both wore McGwires (sable), while the ondeck man wore one as well. db3, slaving away for poetry night and day for all of us. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:59:46 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: FWD NEA Petition Content-Type: text/plain Listees: I think this will be of interest to many of you. Subject: [Fwd: petition for NEA] Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 21:40:46 -0700 From: Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz To: morganth@hooked.net CC: slamb1@unm.edu Subject: petition for NEA Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:09:34 -0400 From: spencrvl@juno.com To: alblocal@aol.com CC: Douglas.Bullock@dol.mailnet.s, mutcer@global2000.net, nyspa@igc.org, acornel107@aol.com, MelRebDim@worldnet.att.net, dollard@crisny.org, bobbydonelson@worldnet.att.net, dorangrace@aol.com, rdunbaro@pacbell.net, dunleaenck@aol.com, campact@crisny.org, TomEllis@juno.com, feffera@idol.union.edu, Pfelton@prodigy.net, jon_flanders@compuserve.com, alad8@aol.com, inunion@aol.com, lizEtish10@yahoo.com, hiland2@aol.com, canyalb@aol.com, occupato@yahoo.com, albanysjc@igc.apc.org, pfeiffef@crisny.org, WROSS@BINGHAMTON.EDU, ks5713@cnsvax.albany.edu, skotnes@sage.edu, Sage@capital.net Friends, The Supreme Court has agreed to hear the issue of whether public funding to an artist can be linked with the idea of whether the art is decent. After the Robert Mapplethorpe scandal not so long ago, Congress passed a law that for an artist's art to receive public money via the National Endowment for the Arts, it must be deemed decent. On NPR Morning Edition this morning, Nina Tottenberg said that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it is in effect the end of NEA. Then, there's the question of Congressional funding: Funding for NPR / NEA & PBS. This petition is being passed around the Internet. Please add your name to it so that funding can be maintained for the NEA, NPR & PBS. Please keep this petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Please sign and forward to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign please send to the e-mail address indicated or return to me. Thanks. This is being forwarded to several people at once to add their names to the petition. It won't matter if many people receive the same list as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure of $1.12/year of their taxes, a petition follows. If you sign, please forward on to others. If not, please don't kill it send it to the email address listed here: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. Petition: funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as not worthwhile. Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts equals $0.64 a year. A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations committees each have 13 subcommittees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. Each subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each year is to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1. The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices heard. Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends if you believe in what we stand for. This list will be forwarded to the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs. *If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc., signer of this petition, please forward a copy to: Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Amurican poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Judy wrote: "On at least one of her books, Anne Carson's complete "biography" is "Anne Carson lives in Canada." Which makes the "American" designation particularly odd." Where is Canada, then--In Asia? I am used to thinking of "Las Americas" North and South. Too bad you can't make an adjective out of "United States." Another syntactical quirk of the original post was the "and others" combined with "we are specially interested in papers on ..." We have to read the minds of the organizers to know what "other" poets they are "specially" interested in. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Amurican poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, it was a pretty varied group to start with. In Guatemala (I don't know whether this applies more broadly) we have been adjectified as "estadosunidense." Not real handy to the anglo tongue. How about "yewessian?" At 02:50 PM 9/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Judy wrote: > >"On at least one of her books, Anne Carson's complete "biography" is "Anne >Carson lives in Canada." Which makes the "American" designation >particularly odd." > >Where is Canada, then--In Asia? I am used to thinking of "Las Americas" >North and South. Too bad you can't make an adjective out of "United >States." > >Another syntactical quirk of the original post was the "and others" >combined with "we are specially interested in papers on ..." We have to >read the minds of the organizers to know what "other" poets they are >"specially" interested in. > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:19:55 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Davidson's catch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Silliman wrote: > Am I the only one who's noticed that the fellow who came up with Mark > McGwire's 61st home run yesterday is named Michael Davidson? But contrary to that Delillo rendered circulating simulacra of a Bobby Thompson desire, the Icon of McGwire History Recording has been encoded, irradiated, so as to allow for truth in identification. The One True Owner. From the Bleachers. Off the foul pole and into our hearts. A separate history of fandom (maybe a Mao II) a McGwire 62. Post-cold war periodizing. mc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: crosses project for indigenous peoples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: > In 1992 I was in Guatemala, where those identified as indigenes (indio is a > slur, india has among its informal meanings prostitute) in a population > almost all of which is native genetically are only the practitioners of the > aboriginal cultures. I neither saw nor heard any discussion of the great > tragedy that the "discovery" was for native peoples. Instead, I was shocked > by signs all over the non-indigene parts of the country proclaiming the > five hundredth anniversary of the introduction of the road to salvation. > Talk about a conquest. In '92, the year she was awarded for the Nobel Peace Prize, I heard Rigoberta Menchu Tum read a poem. She noted it was a liturgical offering to the anonymous Guatemalan dead, los indigenas guatemaltecos. It was said under her breath, on the air, narrowcast, streaming audio, buffering, as it were. Since '96 when the "peace accords" with the Unidad Revolucionaria Nacional Guatemalteca were signed those not too dead and not buried too deeply in mass graves started to return, mostly out of southern mexico. Talk about a conquest. (cf. also _Our Own Backyard: the US in Central America, 1977-1992_, William LeoGrande, UNC, 1998) mc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:27:16 -0400 Reply-To: fperrell@JLC.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F. W. Perrella" Subject: Web Del Sol Update 9/8/98:Ploughshares, Missouri Review, Perihelion#2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Web Del Sol welcomes Ploughshares onsite: http://webdelsol.com/Ploughshares Ploughshares, based at Emerson College in Boston, edited by Don Lee, has the Fall 1998 issue up. Lorrie Moore, Fiction Guest-editor for this issue, has selected a variety of stories with characters, settings, and narrative styles that, in her words, "show off each writer's genius; and so, the stories startle, remind, refresh, take aback, and powerfully engage the reader." Come take a look. Missouri Review's site has been redesigned and updated. Packed with poetry, fiction, essays, interviews, and found text, the current issue, Vol. XXI, Issue 1, features the winners of the 7th annual Editors Prize, and the winner of the first annual Larry Levis Prize in Poetry. Click on over and enjoy. http://webdelsol.com/Missouri_Review Perihelion issue#2 is up, too: Edited by Jennifer Ley, Perihelion continues its mission to publish new poetry, articles on poetry theory, discussion of issues of interest to the poetry community, and online resources for poets. In her latest Round Table discussion "Ink on Your Fingers, Bytes on Your Brain", Jennifer also continues the discussion on the Web/print interface, with in-depth opinion and comment from editors of The Literary Review, Kimera, Poets On:, Octavo, and Mississippi Review Web. Weigh in with your opinion at Perihelion's bbs forum. The poetry in this issue includes some RealAudio files (including mine!), so you can hear selected works in the voices of their authors, if you like. Let us know what you think. http://webdelsol.com/Perihelion Thanks! Anne Perrella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:29:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Amurican poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > Judy wrote: > > "On at least one of her books, Anne Carson's complete "biography" is "Anne > Carson lives in Canada." Which makes the "American" designation > particularly odd." > > Where is Canada, then--In Asia? I am used to thinking of "Las Americas" > North and South. Too bad you can't make an adjective out of "United > States." I've lived in various places in Ca. and there are problems at times over the use of _America,_ since it seems to imply the US - i.e. American citizens for example. Ca. gets left out. And there is an adj. for the US - US citizen, for example, albeit somewhat colloquial. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:49:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: infinite jest for those who love(d) to be astonied MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hurrah and thanks for the minutia (I am re-reading Tristram Shandy in yewessian astony-ment). This (below) reminds me Brautigan's chapter in Confederate General from Big Sur called Counting the Punctuation Marks in Ecclesiastes. Years ago I checked and his counts were accurate. This is what depressed people did before the internet. Bob Grotjohn wrote: > I > actually counted all of the sentences in Ketjak (I gave up on Tjanting, at > least to a point). This counting gave me great pleasure (“Gaiety transfiguring > all that dread”—my answer to an earlier “Huh?”), strange as that might be (my > greatest pleasure in McGwire’s 61 is that he hit it on his father’s 61st > birthday, not that he hit it—if only his father’s birthday would have been June > 1st, I would have taken even greater pleasure, and the pitching in the league > would have been really bad). > > david bromige wrote: > > > Ron, now time enough has passed for us-all to introduce to ourselves > > meanings from your books, isn't it time for the Footnoted Ketjak and > > Tjanting? From U.C. Press, or leastways some place they have lots of paper > > and ink? You could use footnotes from everyone's suggestions, or supply > > them all yourself. I would read this volume before I read F's Wake again. > > Hands up all who feel likewise. David -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:40:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: cognitives dissonances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't one usually wanna say "minutiae"? J ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:46:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Love New York Style In-Reply-To: <01bddb3b$e7ef1240$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Great Post Jordan Davis! It's so elegant Jordan Davis So intelligent Jordan Davis As beautiful as intelligent Jordan Davis As intelligent as fun Jordan Davis As fun as kind Jordan Davis! On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Jordan Davis wrote: > Not my cute phrase but the Harvard Business Review's, for the > public-at-large's reaction to any new technology -- it saves time/it > consumes more time, it answers old needs/it creates new needs -- the notice > goes on -- > > anyway, Anselm, I've been depressed since I learned how to use the can > opener, but it cheered me up to know I didn't have to clench my teeth to > brush them well -- and even more to learn that brushing without toothpaste > is as important as brushing with it -- > > maybe it's only that any paradox is depressing? > > L=poetics&D=1&O=D&F=&S=&P=1441, > Jordan > > unrelated note on paradox: D.H. Lawrence's poem about Shakespeare, silly > people speaking so beautifully -- > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Slipping Through the Cracks (Orientation) Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <35F4F162.5ABE@idt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Interesting post, Alan. Do you know R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz's _The > Temple in Man_? It mentions a 'transparency' inscription on opposite > sides of the same stone in the wall between two rooms at Luxor: > > "The wall's characteristic of _transparency_, placing the hieroglyph for > cloths of room 12 in the symbol for 'box of cloths' represented in room > 5, would suffice to establish a relationship between the symbols for > cloths and the olfactory bulb. To this is added the characteristic of > what weaving represents as a symbol--that is to say, the _interlacing of > threads_, just as the nerves are interlaced so as to make perceptible > the contacts of the individual with the environment. Thus, we frequently > find the symbol for cloths in these three secret sanctuaries. > Figure 42 shows clearly what I am suggesting here. The olfactory > bulb, with the olfactory tract splitting in two, constitutes an organ > whose image is identical to the symbol for cloths...." (103). > > The approach to the temples of Egypt as detailed mappings of human > anatomy recalls the Eassons' discussion of Blake's _Milton_ as modeled > on the physiology of the optical system. I'd have doubts about this, but I'd like to see the work. I'd also like to see what the cloth symbol apparently stems from re: say Gardiner. I'm always amazed, not at the similarities, but at the differences of origins - looking at cuneiform, hieroglyphics, kanji, and seeing almost no relationships at all. And the current meanings of the last seem very twisted compared to their apparent origins (from the accounts I've read - I know very little kanji by heart). I could see the development of a meta-syntactics of the sign, working through narratological issues as well - something that might be applied across the board to different symbolic systems. And thank you for the reference - I'll look for it. yours, Alan > > Dan Zimmerman > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:04:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those who aren't aware, Michael I think inadvertently could be read as saying that the numbers of the dead had been exaggerated, many of those claimed as dead having been in exile. Estimates of the dead run between 100,000 and 400,000, almost all Mayans from the highlands. 400 villages disappeared from the map, many others were combined into the sort of fortified resettlement villages that the US did so much to popularize during the Viet Nam war. Large numbers of people took to a life of scavenging in the forest (these folks had been farmers for millenia) for years at a time in order to remain invisible to the army and the police. In a country of enormous potential wealth and enduring grinding poverty over half the population was reduced to a new level of penury. With an unemployment rate of 80% a worker lucky enough to get a job in a maquiladora factory then and now will make $.14 an hour. Since the peace accords the situation has gotten worse, if anything: the death squads may no longer be government-sponsored, but they persist. Added to them are gangs of thugs recruited from the ranks of the disbanded troops of both sides. Murder and pillage have become more commonplace and less discriminating. And the poor, "the truly miserable" who make up the bulk of the population, as a Guatemalan friend put it, continue to starve. As a token of our throw-away foreign policy, the US, which has a big share of responsibility for this situation, does nothing. The cold war being over, Guatemala is no longer a security concern of ours. Toss it out the window like a used beer can. At 04:09 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: > >> In 1992 I was in Guatemala, where those identified as indigenes (indio is a >> slur, india has among its informal meanings prostitute) in a population >> almost all of which is native genetically are only the practitioners of the >> aboriginal cultures. I neither saw nor heard any discussion of the great >> tragedy that the "discovery" was for native peoples. Instead, I was shocked >> by signs all over the non-indigene parts of the country proclaiming the >> five hundredth anniversary of the introduction of the road to salvation. >> Talk about a conquest. > > > > In '92, the year she was awarded for the Nobel Peace Prize, I heard Rigoberta >Menchu Tum read a poem. > >She noted it was a liturgical offering to the anonymous Guatemalan dead, los >indigenas guatemaltecos. It was said under her breath, on the air, narrowcast, >streaming audio, buffering, as it were. > >Since '96 when the "peace accords" with the Unidad Revolucionaria Nacional >Guatemalteca were signed those not too dead and not buried too deeply in mass >graves started to return, mostly out of southern mexico. > >Talk about a conquest. (cf. also _Our Own Backyard: the US in Central America, >1977-1992_, William LeoGrande, UNC, 1998) > >mc > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:23:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Slipping Through the Cracks (Orientation) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In this regard check out Armand Schwerner's __The Tablets__. At 04:54 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > >> Interesting post, Alan. Do you know R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz's _The >> Temple in Man_? It mentions a 'transparency' inscription on opposite >> sides of the same stone in the wall between two rooms at Luxor: >> >> "The wall's characteristic of _transparency_, placing the hieroglyph for >> cloths of room 12 in the symbol for 'box of cloths' represented in room >> 5, would suffice to establish a relationship between the symbols for >> cloths and the olfactory bulb. To this is added the characteristic of >> what weaving represents as a symbol--that is to say, the _interlacing of >> threads_, just as the nerves are interlaced so as to make perceptible >> the contacts of the individual with the environment. Thus, we frequently >> find the symbol for cloths in these three secret sanctuaries. >> Figure 42 shows clearly what I am suggesting here. The olfactory >> bulb, with the olfactory tract splitting in two, constitutes an organ >> whose image is identical to the symbol for cloths...." (103). >> >> The approach to the temples of Egypt as detailed mappings of human >> anatomy recalls the Eassons' discussion of Blake's _Milton_ as modeled >> on the physiology of the optical system. > >I'd have doubts about this, but I'd like to see the work. I'd also like to >see what the cloth symbol apparently stems from re: say Gardiner. > >I'm always amazed, not at the similarities, but at the differences of >origins - looking at cuneiform, hieroglyphics, kanji, and seeing almost no >relationships at all. And the current meanings of the last seem very >twisted compared to their apparent origins (from the accounts I've read - >I know very little kanji by heart). I could see the development of a >meta-syntactics of the sign, working through narratological issues as well >- something that might be applied across the board to different symbolic >systems. > >And thank you for the reference - I'll look for it. > >yours, Alan > >> >> Dan Zimmerman >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:24:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Jen Hoffer: query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm hoping someone has an e-mail addres or contact info for Jen Hoffer who was fast on the move last I heard from her. If so, please backchannel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: crosses project for indigenous peoples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Mr. Weiss meant this for this list. Because it is true. (It is hard to estimate in particular the early 80s of Guatemala and the tenure of Efrain Rios Montt and Ronald Reagan(think percentage of all the dead of all american wars combined)). But he is right, more, about the situation today. It is world we live in. Now. You and me and Mark McGwire.) Mark Weiss wrote: > For those who aren't aware, Michael I think inadvertently could be read as > saying that the numbers of the dead had been exaggerated, many of those > claimed as dead having been in exile. Estimates of the dead run between > 100,000 and 400,000, almost all Mayans from the highlands. 400 villages > disappeared from the map, many others were combined into the sort of > fortified resettlement villages that the US did so much to popularize > during the Viet Nam war. Large numbers of people took to a life of > scavenging in the forest (these folks had been farmers for millenia) for > years at a time in order to remain invisible to the army and the police. In > a country of enormous potential wealth and enduring grinding poverty over > half the population was reduced to a new level of penury. With an > unemployment rate of 80% a worker lucky enough to get a job in a > maquiladora factory then and now will make $.14 an hour. > Since the peace accords the situation has gotten worse, if anything: the > death squads may no longer be government-sponsored, but they persist. Added > to them are gangs of thugs recruited from the ranks of the disbanded troops > of both sides. Murder and pillage have become more commonplace and less > discriminating. And the poor, "the truly miserable" who make up the bulk of > the population, as a Guatemalan friend put it, continue to starve. > > As a token of our throw-away foreign policy, the US, which has a big share > of responsibility for this situation, does nothing. The cold war being > over, Guatemala is no longer a security concern of ours. Toss it out the > window like a used beer can. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:36:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: re davidson's catch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, here's hoping that the one who catches the ball this evening (yes!) will be named Marianne Moore, the only poet I can think of who actually wrote an article on the St. Louis Cardinals (in 1968). Actually, I once published an article on Lou Brock, but I'm nowhere near St. Louis at this point, unfortunately. I did see him hit his 38th home run this season at Busch. And I hope Sammy Sosa hits one too. Maybe Lorca can catch it. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 12:32:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: LAST PAGE OF S&M SALE Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our final posting for the great Sun & Moon sale Each book is $4.00 + $1.25 for postage ____Jackson Mac Low FROM PEARL HARBOR DAY TO FDR'S BIRTHDAY (paper, list price $10.95) Upon its original publication in1982, FROM PEARL HARBOR DAY..., representing work written from the 7th of December 1981 to the 30th of January 1982, was recognized as a significant new direction in the writing of noted poet Jackson Mac Low. Although he had written disjunction poems since the 1930s, this work evinced a new interest, arounds in part by the "Language" poets, in intentional methodology, as opposed to his chance-oriented poems, writing he continued in BLOOMSDAY (1984) and in PIECES O' SIX (1992, Sun & Moon Press). This book is a must for all readers interested in the work of Mac Low. ____Joe Ross. GUARDS OF THE HEART (paper, list price $9.95) Of the Byron of Manfred were to join forces with the "Language" writers, together they might have produced the four astoundingly original plays of poetry by the young poet Joe Ross. His is a highly romantic work, the writing of a believer in the potential of the human mind, a believer in the possibility of knowing truth. But Ross's work is also completely contemporary, syncretic and disjunctive, revelatory of the constant shift and flux of the late 1990s. ____Aaron Shurin. INTO DISTANCES. (paper, list price $10.95) In this, his eighth book of poetry, Aaron Shurin continues to explore the prose-poem format he began in 1984, a form in which he has sought to combine lyric and narrative in a way that reflects in its complexities and contraditions the tension between individual per- ception and social control; a poetry simulatneously of praise and dislocation. ____Giuseppe Steiner. DRAWN STATES OF MIND (paper, $8.95) Steiner joined the ranks of the Italian Futuris movement during World War I, and contributed poetry to a variety of Futurist journals. But in the years to follow Steiner abanonded the Marinettian project of "words-in-freedom" because he felt that verbal poetry was in- herently limited, due to the inadequate expressive potential of words. Pushing Marinetti's work, Steiner first experimented with "syllables in freedom," and when these also seemed unmanageable, he turned away from verbal expression altogether. These wonderful visual poems are remarkably original and fun. ____John Taggart. LOOP (paper, list price $11.95) In LOOP, noted poet John Taggart's largest collection to date, the poet expands his poetic vistas, probing along lines first laid out by the Objectivists, but in a manner all his own. Here is a use of poetic repetition that permits us to hear and hear again the rhythms of our lives, from childhood to what we describe as adulthood. ____Hannah Weiner. SPOKE (paper, list price $6.95) Perhaps this book is the recently deceased Weiner's most important book. Certainly, she never saw words in space as clearly as in SPOKE. Its sense of energy, humor, and poetic exploration is hard to be matched. ____Mac Wellman. A SHELF IN WOOP'S CLOTHING (paper, list price $8.95) Mac Wellman is a hero to almost any of the younger playwrights; more than anyone of his generation, Wellman forged a new poetic theater that has had an enormous impact on contemporary drama. But it is important to remember that Wellman is also an incredible poet, as crazily divine book reveals. THERE'S MORE FOLKS AT SUN & MOON.....but that's all for this sale.... I look forward to your orders. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 16:02:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Re: FWD NEA Petition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark - Thanks for sending out the petition - I heard a great one regarding the NEA - someone said we should be grateful to Jesse Helms because if it wasn't for him, lots of people wouldn't have heard of Mapplethorpe. AAAAGH! Sign the petition! Lisa Trank ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:24:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Davidson's catch In-Reply-To: <19980908163455.11385.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Am I the only one who's noticed that the fellow who came up with Mark >McGwire's 61st home run yesterday is named Michael Davidson? > > > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com I thought the guy looked kind of familiar. I will be looking for a left field stands full of poets in today's game. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:31:38 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: cognitives dissonances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't one usually wanna say "minutiae"? Unless you're dressed casually as a poet from the hills of Ohio's mining pollution where we rhyme perpetuation,canzone, & revolutione ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:41:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Amurican poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Jonathan Mayhew wrote: >Where is Canada, then--In Asia? I am used to thinking of "Las Americas" >North and South. Too bad you can't make an adjective out of "United >States." > Didn't Frank Lloyd Wright coin the term "Usonian?" Never really caught on, alas. Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:28:30 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: n p Subject: typewriter IC233 fluft Content-Type: text/plain Amen! and a second: >When does Lee Ann Brown's >Polyverse get to be free? >A. Berrigan >THE SUN & MOON PRESS CAMPAIGN TO FREE ITS POETRY > >Sun & Moon Press has long ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:08:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: FWD NEA Petition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am hearing conflicting reports in regards to sending petitions over the net. I have heard that they are useless, because you actually need a signiture - and through this medium that is impossible (I think). Anyway does anyone know for sure. ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:42:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Essay: Digital Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At Web del Sol's Perihelion site is my newly published essay "Digital Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field" (http://webdelsol.com/Perihelion/jimarticle.htm) and "Political Dimensions of Langu(im)age" (http://www.webdelsol.com/bbs/arts/arts.cgi?read=37), which is really a part of the essay, but was too late for the editor's deadline. Regards, Jim Andrews -- V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 17:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Majzels Subject: Fall Readings in Montreal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, No fixed adDress, a group of Montreal writers dedicated to exploring new writing practices is holding a series of readings this Fall, so if you're coming up (or down) this way, don't miss 'em. Wednesday, September 23: Lisa Robertson, Vancouver-based poet, author of _Debbie: an Epic_ (New Star Books and Reality Street Editions). Her work has also been published in _Out of Everywhere_ and _Moving Borders_. "someone drags an amazon like a dead a kneeling amazon a fallen a mazon an amazon facing backwards an amazon armed with a word pulling an amazon treading down an amazon an amazon with a mounted amazon from behind by an ama zon over a fallen amazon an amazon overcoming striking down" Introduced by Gail Scott, author of _Main Brides_, a novel (Coach House Pres= s). Thursday, October 15: =46rance Daigle, Acadian novelist, author of several novels, most recently _1953: chronique d'une naissance annonc=E9e_ and _Pas Pire_ (Editions de l'Acadie). with Robert Majzels, author of _City of Forgetting_, a novel (Mercury Press) and translator of France Daigle's _1953: Chronicle of a Birth =46oretold_ (House of Anansi). "For novelists do not live; they grind. They take life apart, revelling in the sight of its countless components, and then spend sleepless nights trying to figure out how to breathe life back into this inert matter. And even if they succeed in putting it all back together, they continue to fret over whether the machine will be of any use." from _1953_ and Fredric Gary Comeau, Acadian poet and playwright, author of Ravages (Editions Perce-Neige). "la cartographie de cet instinct nous force a redefinir l'errance l'image du nord l'hiver toujours present le corps en attente d'une voix ou d'une lueur le besoin d'habiter le langage comme lietmotiv au seuil d'un autre lieu d'un territoire que nous imaginons mobile" Thursday, October 29: Gerry Shikatani, Montreal-based sound poet, author of _Aqueduct_ (Mercury Press, Underwhich Editions, Wolsak & Wynn). "(those gestures behind doors)=8A I can remember then, the precision of that meal=8A Eggs, hot, yet still liquid and yellow in their sweet warm cream, the tureen to fingers was hot, I would taste and inhale the odours into me. And the crisp, almost smoke salt skin of a duck confit in its soft giving sauce, a tableau of pureed carrots fanned with ridges, and those sweet white potatoes, still vegetable crisp, speaking of their presence in the earth." Wednesday, November 18: Nicole Markotic, Calgary-based poet and fiction writer, author of Minotaurs and Other Alphabets (Wolsak & Wynn). "they didn't notice, but "L" and "R" can be versions of the same letter. can be, to her ear, the same sound. listen, there's a reason, dreams happen beneath eyelids. there's a pattern, trust me when I say I'm going to sew buttons on the underside of shirts, read them across ribs" from _lip service_ Introduced by Erin Mour=E9, poet, author of _Search Procedures_. Our thanks to the Canada Council and Moveable Type Inc. for financial support for these readings. All readings: 8 pm at Bistro 4, 4040 St-Laurent. Robert Majzels bobei@odyssee.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:05:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Amurican poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Jonathan Mayhew wrote: > >>Where is Canada, then--In Asia? I am used to thinking of "Las Americas" >>North and South. Too bad you can't make an adjective out of "United >>States." I always use the term USAmerican. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 02:11:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Pessoa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Friends, Do you think Pessoa died a virgin? I was just wondering. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:23:23 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Walkie-Talkie Walmart Narwhal Content-Type: text/plain Ted's Etat Unis Teste D. Unitas Tetanus Site But I cannot make an adjective! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 03:13:17 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob-- Was that supposed to offend those of us who are self deprecating, or just librarians? Be well David Baratier ---------- Friends, Do you think Pessoa died a virgin? I was just wondering. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 05:03:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Petitions & Value Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDDBAF.389831E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDDBAF.389831E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The value of a petition is always variable. When I worked as a lobbyist = for the prison movement in Sacramento in the 1970s, it was standard = operating procedure for lawmakers to routinely sort incoming mail = geographically -- in district mail, out of district mail -- the latter = almost always being pitched without even being read. The major variation = on that theme was a tripartite one: in district mail, out of district = mail, in the district of the office I want to run for next mail (state = senators in Calif. have noticeably larger districts than do members of = the "lower" house, as do members of congress).=20 Since petitions so often tend not to be sortable on those terms, they = were always looked at with some suspicion. Several lawmakers also used a numerical system. A postcard, by virtue of = the effort demanded, was presumed to indicate that 3 persons in the = district (and that "in the district" was a constant) felt likewise moved = on a given issue. An actual letter was presumed to indicate that 9 = persons felt likewise. Items that had been "pre-written" (like those = pre-printed post cards that start, Dear Mr. Gingrich) were, by this = scale, a one. A few pols always knew exactly what the numbers on any = given bill were in these terms and while it didn't always sway votes -- = there were a few back then who actually had their own opinions -- it = sometimes would have an impact, especially in situations where it wasn't = a "hot button" item.=20 So, petitions tended to be a "one" per signature, but it was/is often = hard to tell what the district relation of a given signature was, which = tended to make it even less felt. But it was/is a register of feeling, = position, voter emotion, etc., and so is taken into consideration. The problem of the net and petitions right now is two-fold. First, I = can't tell that you are really you when you sign a petition and I'm even = fuzzier as to where you live (in my district or otherwise). Second, lots = of pols, like business execs still, tend to be technology idiots. Think = of Janet Reno's comment that "I'm not personally acquainted with a PC at = the moment" in response to a question concerning the Microsoft = anti-trust case -- this from a woman who has a PC service contract that = requires 15 minute response time and a 30 minute fix, meaning that = whoever currently has the Justice Dept contract these days (I used to = work for a company that had it) has a paid employee basically waiting = full-time at DOJ headquarters with a system that has last night's backup = ready to be swapped for Reno's the minute it crashes -- and she doesn't = even use the machine! What pols know about the net, all too often, is what they read in the = media, so they know that it got Hank the Angry Dwarf elected as People = Magazine's "Sexiest Man Alive" (or whatever that contest was), they know = about the Ourfirsttime.com scam, they know about the IPOs of Yahoo and = other internet companies, and that there is a lot of porn out there. So = they're basically stupid and suspicious -- always a bad combination. Having said that and with this background, I do tend to sign petitions = and circulate them. How impactful are they? Never as much as I would = like, but frankly better than nothing. The real question is what ELSE = can I, or you, or anyone do to help get the NEA funded or oil companies = to stop supporting African dictators or whatever. Getting a good person = elected or a bad one dis-elected has one hell of a lot more impact in = the long run. Ron Silliman (living in a district that is 75% GOP with a congressman, Curt Weldon, who is the #1 sponsor of ongoing=20 Star Wars research, even though Lockheed no longer is the major employer in the district) ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDDBAF.389831E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The value of a petition is always = variable. When=20 I worked as a lobbyist for the prison movement in Sacramento in the = 1970s, it=20 was standard operating procedure for lawmakers to routinely sort = incoming mail=20 geographically -- in district mail, out of district mail -- the latter = almost=20 always being pitched without even being read. The major variation on = that theme=20 was a tripartite one: in district mail, out of district mail, in the = district of=20 the office I want to run for next mail (state senators in Calif. have = noticeably=20 larger districts than do members of the "lower" house, as do = members=20 of congress).
 
Since petitions so often tend not to be sortable on = those=20 terms, they were always looked at with some suspicion.
 
Several lawmakers also used a numerical system. A = postcard, by=20 virtue of the effort demanded, was presumed to indicate that 3 persons = in the=20 district (and that "in the district" was a constant) felt = likewise=20 moved on a given issue. An actual letter was presumed to indicate that 9 = persons=20 felt likewise. Items that had been "pre-written" (like those=20 pre-printed post cards that start, Dear Mr. Gingrich) were, by this = scale, a=20 one. A few pols always knew exactly what the numbers on any given bill = were in=20 these terms and while it didn't always sway votes -- there were a few = back then=20 who actually had their own opinions -- it sometimes would have an = impact,=20 especially in situations where it wasn't a "hot button" item.=20
 
So, petitions tended to be a "one" per = signature,=20 but it was/is often hard to tell what the district relation of a given = signature=20 was, which tended to make it even less felt. But it was/is a register of = feeling, position, voter emotion, etc., and so is taken into=20 consideration.
 
The problem of the net and petitions right now is = two-fold.=20 First, I can't tell that you are really you when you sign a petition and = I'm=20 even fuzzier as to where you live (in my district or otherwise). Second, = lots of=20 pols, like business execs still, tend to be technology idiots. Think of = Janet=20 Reno's comment that "I'm not personally acquainted with a PC at the = moment" in response to a question concerning the Microsoft = anti-trust case=20 -- this from a woman who has a PC service contract that requires 15 = minute=20 response time and a 30 minute fix, meaning that whoever currently has = the=20 Justice Dept contract these days (I used to work for a company that had = it) has=20 a paid employee basically waiting full-time at DOJ headquarters with a = system=20 that has last night's backup ready to be swapped for Reno's the minute = it=20 crashes -- and she doesn't even use the machine!
 
What pols know about the net, all too often, is what = they read=20 in the media, so they know that it got Hank the Angry Dwarf elected as = People=20 Magazine's "Sexiest Man Alive" (or whatever that contest was), = they=20 know about the Ourfirsttime.com scam, they know about the IPOs of Yahoo = and=20 other internet companies, and that there is a lot of porn out there. So = they're=20 basically stupid and suspicious -- always a bad = combination.
 
Having said that and with this background, I do tend = to sign=20 petitions and circulate them. How impactful are they? Never as much as I = would=20 like, but frankly better than nothing. The real question is what ELSE = can I, or=20 you, or anyone do to help get the NEA funded or oil companies to stop = supporting=20 African dictators or whatever. Getting a good person elected or a bad = one=20 dis-elected has one hell of a lot more impact in the long = run.
 
Ron Silliman
(living in a district that is 75% GOP
with a congressman, Curt Weldon,
who is the #1 sponsor of ongoing
Star Wars research, even though
Lockheed no longer is the major = employer
in the district)
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BDDBAF.389831E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:22:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fire damages Rita Dove's home Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDBBA.4356BD80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDBBA.4356BD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just off the AP wire... Fire Damages Home of Poet Rita Dove Filed at 5:18 a.m. EDT=20 By The Associated Press CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) -- A lightning strike sent flames shooting = through the roof of Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Rita Dove's home, = causing about $250,000 in damage but sparing her original manuscripts.=20 ``There is a lot of water damage, but overall we were quite lucky,'' Ms. = Dove said. ``I really thought ... it was going to burn to the ground.''=20 The fire started with a lightning strike that threw Ms. Dove's husband, = Fred Viebahn, across a study Monday night. Flames shot through the top = of the house, destroying the roof and attic.=20 The lightning strike also knocked out power to most of the other houses = on her street.=20 ``I heard a loud, terrible explosion,'' said Ms. Dove, who teaches = English at the University of Virginia.=20 The fire collapsed part of a ceiling in the two-story wood house, = injuring three volunteer firefighters. One was being treated at the = University of Virginia Medical Center for burns, and the other two were = treated at the scene for scrapes and bruises.=20 Ms. Dove won the 1987 Pulitzer Prize in poetry for her book ``Thomas and = Beulah.'' She served as the nation's first black -- and youngest -- poet = laureate from 1993 to 1995.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDBBA.4356BD80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just off the AP = wire...

Fire Damages Home of Poet Rita Dove

Filed at 5:18 a.m. EDT

By The Associated Press

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) -- A lightning strike sent flames shooting = through=20 the roof of Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Rita Dove's home, causing about = $250,000=20 in damage but sparing her original manuscripts.

``There is a lot of water damage, but overall we were quite lucky,'' = Ms. Dove=20 said. ``I really thought ... it was going to burn to the ground.''

The fire started with a lightning strike that threw Ms. Dove's = husband, Fred=20 Viebahn, across a study Monday night. Flames shot through the top of the = house,=20 destroying the roof and attic.

The lightning strike also knocked out power to most of the other = houses on=20 her street.

``I heard a loud, terrible explosion,'' said Ms. Dove, who teaches = English at=20 the University of Virginia.

The fire collapsed part of a ceiling in the two-story wood house, = injuring=20 three volunteer firefighters. One was being treated at the University of = Virginia Medical Center for burns, and the other two were treated at the = scene=20 for scrapes and bruises.

Ms. Dove won the 1987 Pulitzer Prize in poetry for her book ``Thomas = and=20 Beulah.'' She served as the nation's first black -- and youngest -- poet = laureate from 1993 to 1995.

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BDDBBA.4356BD80-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Walkie-Talkie Walmart Narwhal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natalia Pang wrote: > > Ted's Etat Unis > > Teste D. Unitas > > Tetanus Site > > But I cannot make an adjective! > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com For a Latin pagan a tissue tent astute inset Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 06:49:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: NEW CHAPBOOKS FROM POTES & POETS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The first series of 8 chapbooks from Potes & Poets Press is now available from Small Press Distribution. They are: Jim Leftwich, Improvisations / Transformations, 45pp., $7 Sarah Mangold, Blood Substitutes, 45pp., $7 Ryan Whyte, Studio As History, 39pp., $7 Carrie Etter, Subterfuge of the Unrequitable, 27pp., $6 Katy Lederer, Music, No Staves, 22pp., $6 Jake Berry, Drafts of the Sorcery, 37pp., $7 Barbara Cole, little wives, 35pp., $7 Jack Kimball, Quite Vacation, 27pp., $6 All 8 ($53 value) for $45. Please order from Small Press Distribution tel. 1-800-869-7553 or 1341 Seventh Avenue, Berkeley CA 94710 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:59:53 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: Charles B's poem : one response MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear David, Well I am in New York, every moment I feel like that guy in the Stevie Wonder song "Living in the City" when he says "New York, just how I pictured it, skyscrapers and everything." For me it is "New York, just like I remembered it, sexy women and beautiful industrial blight, everywhere." Because of course I am returning, same apartment same job same friends. I thoroughly enjoyed the poem below and am tacking it to my newly put together and delightlyfully functional office. love, Rachel p.s. I am getting a chapbook published by G.Sullivan. In it is a poem in which I use an email from you in a twisted and misquoted fashion. I don't put your name on it. Would that offend you? Would you like to see it and tell me if you are offended? david bromige wrote: > > After Bernstein > > There's a price > we shall pay for > remaining above > ground. Just like > we flew to Florida, > it's gonna cost. > "Desirable beachfront > hotel or condo"-- > that's what your life > must amount to, now. > > You wanna poke your > head up outa the earth, > like some prairie dog? > Like some living dead? > Some insistent zombie? > Okay let's see plastic > on that. Full occupancy > ensures rates stay high. > You could be buried in > one of many mass graves. > Sprinkled with lime. > Out of the future action. > > But (somehow--some > secretary's social gaffe) > here you are. So, whaddya > got to say for yourself, > Mr/Ms Living Tissue, huh? > You're eminently replaceable. > So far. We're barely waiting. > The mere factoid of you, > The Creation, palls fast. > > Those appurtenances--all of > them--we can replace, & will. > That pilgrim soul stacks up > in warehouses globally. Our > inventory embarrasses. So > give it what you got plus, > 'cause we aren't in Kansas > any more, no, nor New York. > > Hey! Your atoms persist-- > whyntya just check out? > Space is at a premium, > and evolution's draft picks > were published yesterday. > Godknows you're beautiful, > lovely, talented, gifted, > subjectively marvelous : > but God quit the board > in a snit. Hike it higher. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now, I will proceed to run naked through the streets of East New York. Afterwords I will jump into the Gowanus Canal. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:01:01 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Poetry New York #10 The new issue of Poetry New York is just from the printer and will be on sale in stores etc. soon and is now available if you wish to contact us at pny33@hotmail.com (and hey check out our website: http://members.tripod.com/~PNY_journal/). Contributors in the new issue include (some names will be familiar to this List): John Noto Ron Drummond Jordan Davis Emmy Hunter Sherry Kearns Afaa Michael Weaver Peter Waterhouse Rosmarie Waldrop Barbara Henning Takamura Kotaro John Peters Sharon Dolin David Baratier Hunter Bivens Tom McFadden Chu Tun-ju Julie Landau Felix Philip Ingold Ingrid Fichtner Michael Stephens Nicolae Dabija John Flynn Alan Chin (photographs) Gwyn McVay Dan Featherston Andrew Steinmetz Jean-Joseph Rabearivelo Cynthia King Frank Lennon Zhang Er Leonard Schwartz Carolyn Stoloff Bruce Andrews Avery E.D. Burns Carlo Sylvester Joseph Donahue Andrey Gritsman Alex Cigale. Tod Thilleman, Editor Burt Kimmelman, Sr. Editor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:01:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Waddaya call amuricans? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII USAmericans Unitedstatesians gringos gringoes (sing., gringao, with a tilda) yanks how about, "usans" ?? ..Try it yorself; it's fun and easy! I use all these all the time myself in conversation; what rightwingers pretend to think are "awkward" locutions, are alotta time a fun way to play with language and make a political point at the same time. It's both rewarding and socially useful to piss off P.C.-bashers. But then, i still refer to my small Sony unit as a walkperson, and a first-year undergrad as a freshperson... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:03:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know--my Pessoa is somewhat damp, anxious and celibate. But perhaps we should ask: which heteronym? As Bernardo Soares, assistant bookkeeper, he wrote: We should be pure, not to be noble or strong, but to be ourselves . . . We must abdicate from life in order not to abdicate from ourselves. Woman is a good source of dreams--never touch her. Learn to disconnect the ideas of voluptuousness and pleasure . . . Because nothing is what it is . . . For that reason you must not touch anything . . . Rachel Loden Nuyopoman@AOL.COM wrote: > > Friends, > > Do you think Pessoa died a virgin? I was just wondering. > > Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:17:13 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: Sales books/4 Sun & Moon Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Douglas, I would like to order the following: ____Charles Bernstein. ROUGH TRADES (paper, list $10.95 ____Fanny Howe. THE LIVES OF A SPIRIT (cloth, list price 10.95) _____Will Alexander. ASIA & HAITI (paper, list price $12.95) ____ Rae Armantrout. MADE TO SEEM (list price, $9.95) ____ Rae Armantrout. NECROMANCE (paper, list price $8.95) ____Djuna Barnes. THE BOOK OF REPULSIVE WOMEN: 8 RHYTHMS AND 5 DRAWINGS (paper, list price $6.95) ____Norma Cole. MY BIRD BOOK [Littoral Books] (paper, list price $9.95) ____Nick Piombino. POEMS (paper, list price $8.95) ____John Taggart. LOOP (paper, list price $11.95) ____Hannah Weiner. SPOKE (paper, list price $6.95) > Order from Sun & Moon Press > 6026 Wilshire Boulevard > Los Angeles, CA 90036 > djmess@sunmoon.com > > Remember, all books are just $4.00 plus $1.25 each > shipping. > Entonces: 10 X $5.25 = 52.50 I'll send the check, can I order now, over email Rachel Levitsky 159 Eastern Parkway #6K Brooklyn,NY 11238-6069 Thanks! Rache ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:10:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Pessoa In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 9 Sep 1998 07:03:29 -0700 from wasn't Alberto Caiero (1st Pessoa alias-heteronym) BORN of a virgin?? Does this tell us anything?? Was Pessoa transferring his teen id status (aka his "united states") onto a Hellenistic "divine man" symbol?? Can Professor Eric Blarnes help us with this, please?? >I say, Henry, awfully gratified to be of some assistance - I was just >gently perambulating my personal folio copy of the Caeiro mss. [which >it was my good fortune to obtain at a discount in a small used >libreriotechnosistencia [ie. used-bookstore] in Lizthbon in 1947] - >and would like to index potential scholiasts & enthusiasts to >ms. poem #112, lines 8-14, translated [quite roughly, friends] as >follows: > To be born of a virgin is only a miracle when the air is salted with a dream of sheep. And I will suffuse my peasant genesis with the oats of Federico, my favorite mule. Anything is possible. > >- now I think we are safe in assuming that Caeiro aka Pessoa is certainly >dabbling or dibbling with the CONCEPTION of conception here, are we not? Gosh, thanks Prof. Blarnes - I knew you would be able to pull out your facsimiles & give us a dusting! Incisive relevant comments, anyone?? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:21:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities Subject: fargo slam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hello, all-- so many of you seem to live in places--hubs--like NY or seattle or SF; i yearn and drool as i read of all the happenings, readings, parties, etc. but, just in case there is anyone besides me, stuck out on these god-forsaken plains, here is a small flame, cursing the darkness-- best, shaunanne ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:09:20 -0500 To: tangney@warp6.cs.misu.nodak.edu Subject: fyi NDSU's VOLUNTEER NETWORK SPONSORS FARGO POETRY SLAM Last night's 12th edition of the Fargo Poetry Slam-"Slam on the Plains" at First Avenue Cabaret drew approximately 70 people. 20 people read during the open mic and 10 people competed in the slam for $25 and short term fame. The Feature, Alan Davis (MSU Instructor and Author) & Co. read the short story "World Poetry Slam" from his book, "Rumours from the Lost World." Last night's top slam poet, Kevin Zepper took the cash and NDSU Student, Lia Tilly ran a very close 2nd by a point differential of .2 Both will be invited back in April to the Grand Slam Invitational which will determine the Top Slam poet in the region, and most importantly, help select the 4-poet team to represent the F-M area at the 10th National Poetry Slam in Chicago, August '99. July's top slam poet was Kristin Garaas, the and runner up was Alyson Carley. Approximately $230.00 from the cover charge was raised and donated to the Literacy Coalition of the Valley to support adult literacy programs in the the area. 10 members from the audience signed up to volunteer for the program. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VOLUNTEER FOR THIS PROGRAM PLEASE CONTACT: Theresa McMullen at 231-9548. The slam was sponsored by NDSU's Volunteer Network, 1st Avenue Cabaret, Slam on the Plains and the Literacy Coalition of the Valley. The Fargo Poetry Slam is held on the last Monday of each Month at the 1st Avenue Cabaret. Should you like more information please contact me........Robb Robb Ryan Q. Thibault Assistant Director for Campus Programs North Dakota State University Student Activites Office 360 E Memorial Union Fabulous Foxy Fargo, ND 58105 Fax: 701-231-8043 Office: 701-231-8566 Home: 701-235-6378 Thibault @plains.nodak.edu "Just trying to stay free in a repressed world." "Civility is Sexy" (c.1997 Thibault) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:55:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LITSAM@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pessoa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From this, I guess we can assume that Bill Clinton is not one of my fellow Portuguese dudes? Sam Pereira ------------------------------------------------------------------ At 07:03 AM 9/9/98 -0700, Rachel Loden wrote: >I don't know--my Pessoa is somewhat damp, anxious and celibate. But >perhaps we should ask: which heteronym? > >As Bernardo Soares, assistant bookkeeper, he wrote: > >We should be pure, not to be noble or strong, but to be ourselves . . . > >We must abdicate from life in order not to abdicate from ourselves. > >Woman is a good source of dreams--never touch her. > >Learn to disconnect the ideas of voluptuousness and pleasure . . . >Because nothing is what it is . . . For that reason you must not touch >anything . . . > >Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:59:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: 'Energies of Writing' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sound & Language announce the launch of a 'writers' book, commissioned from: TERTIA LONGMIRE and AARON WILLIAMSON ____________________________________________________________________________= __ In this book, 'energies of writing' emerge through developing photography and writing - both as materials and activities - in relation to each other. Here, the textual is transformed, quarried and disfigured as it re/appears physically in the image, and vice versa. The book was realised collaboratively, beyond any definitive role taken by either of the artist-writers. Similarly, the interplay between written texts and visual images is non-illustrative, being materially accumulated through repetition and symbiosis. Taken together, both elements convey a mercurial ineffability in which logos and imago converge. The collaborative 'I', postcriptually written-in, becomes a supplementary, elusively figured 'hook' for this convergence. In this way, writing generates an energy which not only signifies but is itself the subject of signification. - Tertia Longmire is a writer and visual artist. She has made many installation pieces, exploring ideas about revelation, concealment and spatial boundaries, often using found objects and texts. Her books include 'ReFuse' (Text and Image, 1996); and 'The Table Leaks its Object' (Magpie Press, 1997). She is lecturer in sculpture at Brighton University. - Performance artist and writer Aaron Williamson's work is informed by his experience of becoming profoundly deaf. He has toured extensively in Europe and North America and recently completed a Doctoral thesis entitled 'Physiques of Inscription' at the University of Sussex. His publications include 'Cathedral Lung' (1991); and 'A Holythroat Symposium' (Creation, 1993). ------- A reading - performance will take place at: ONE IN THE OTHER 1 Tenter Ground (off White's Row) London E1 (Liverpool Street BR / Tube) on Wednesday September 30th 8.00pm This is a free event, copies of the book will be on sale the event supported by Performance Writing / Eastern Arts Board and Sound & Language. The book is available for sale, from October 1st onwards at =A35 (plus p&p) from - 85 London Road South. Lowestoft. Suffolk NR33 OAS (cheques etc made payable to Sound & Language) see you there love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't now Pessoa as well as I should. There is a strange Spanish poet who does translations, some of which have no originals behind them. Here is my rough version of Leopoldo Maria Panero's "Imitation of Pessoa"--does anyone recognize the poem its an imitation of? If it comes from a real Pessoa poem it might shed light on the whole virginity question: Love, do not be: flee from being and let being flee from you like a dead man, and tell it, don't touch me like a dead man, let life not plant in me its animal claw, for life is a sin, love, do not be life smells bad, love do not be for living is a perpetual flight from that birth that strangers conspired against your happiness one day, from that birth that those unknown people wanted for you and noone could match you because you are still a virgin, a virgin like a saint, from life itself: my love, be like me, do not be. There are also some Trakl translations that I am trying to track down. I'll post them soon. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:53:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: roger maris hits 61st Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mcgwire and sosa seem like great sports, the finest millionaires you want to meet, but i was disappointed by the fox network and ted turner's technicians who weren't prepared (though they knew days in advance it was going to happen) to show us film of maris hitting his record making shot or some of the hate messages he received for his desecrating the memory of the sacred babe. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:53:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Waddaya call amuricans? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" in a thrift shop in London some time ago the cashier said: Canajuns, Amurkins, you're all yanks. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:17:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: 20C. Lit. Conference again Thanks to those of you who pointed out my mistake in listing the conference site--turns out it's printed incorrectly on our conference poster (embarrassing mistake!), which is where I copied it from. Anyway, the correct site address is http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/cml/xxconf/call99.html I'd missed out the "louisville" before. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:20:17 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: to be a pilgrim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A student of mine needs to know the name of a "prominent" American family, perhaps politicos or plutos, who can, ostentatiously or otherwise, trace their origins to the pilgrim fathers. Any suggestions would be very welcome. Randolph Healy from suantrai@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Many Groovy Things-2-Come MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I hadn't meant to announce this just yet, but since Rachel let this (& other) cat(s) out of the bag . . . NEW CHAPBOOK SERIES FROM DETOUR PRESS Mitch Highfill, _Blue Dahlia_, $6 "You've got the wrong lipstick on your face, mister, a head full of images long separated from life wound up and activated by circumstances emptied of content. . . ." Rachel Levitsky, _Cartographies of Error_, $6 (w/groovy misquoted Bromige e-mail tipped in, $10) (w/tortured e-mail apology to Bromige from Levitsky, signed by the author, $20) "Before I forget, as a feminist I don't insist on speaking about Nature, that is the job of the men in space ships. I don't say that as a manhater, but I did not invent nuclear fission, that was done on the computer. I was busy in the bathroom. I was defining my terms. . . ." Laurie Price, _Under the Sign of the House_, $6 "Broken through the glare of hedgelights fed out along a highway like gigantic trees are real trees, noted, braided in among the simian shadows. An itchy arc defining something precise, assimilated, the way one arrives at conclusions, often, believing them as if they were more than." Geoffrey Young, _After the Fact_, $6 "What I am wants but waits impatiently and so we reach the year 1907 introducing these few incidentals: to _muse_ derives from the medieval Latin for snout, to sniff around, to cast about for a scent, since nature is change . . ." Purchase all 4-at-once and pay only $20! These books will be available late fall of this year. BUT: Order all 4 before October 1 and pay only $15! Q: "No way, Gary! There must be some mistake! Are you on something?!?" A: "Esta verdad, bay-bay. I'm high on life!" Watch this space for NYC-area reading/book party announcement-to-come . . . To be published later in this series: Daniel Davidson memorial & chapbooks by Ange Mlinko, Joel Kuszai, Sheila E. Murphy, & others-2-be-announced . . . EXILE: "The Crank Issue" -- Featuring the Two Seasons groovy chapbook publication of Charles Olson's "Letter to _Field & Stream_" from 1952; Richard Kostelanetz's all-purpose multiple-submission w/SASE, "They Stole All My Ideas and Gave Me No Credit"; Tom Phan's selection of passages from Barrett Watten's Iowa thesis, "Prowess Precedes Progress"; Joel Lewis's "The Pethro Poems" (in homage to Edward Dahlberg); Cartoon: "Kristoff, Rebel Academic!"; "Poetry? O, Posh!" a panel of luminous cranky personalities berating each other incessantly! including: Carol Bly, Stan Brakhage, Gerald Burns, Maya Deren, Laura Riding, Jack Smith, etc., moderated by the ever-befuddled Bill Moyers; and much, much more . . . this special (long-overdue) issue will go out to all subscribers, but non-subscribing listmembers can have it FREE with an order of anything else mentioned in this e-mail, or for $5, postage paid. DETOUR BACKLIST Erik Belgum, _Star Fiction_, $11.95 Johanna Drucker, _Dark Decade_, $10.95 David Gilbert, _I Shot the Hairdresser_, $8.95 Stephen-Paul Martin, _Fear & Philosophy_, $8.95 Hot dang! Backlist above has gotta go! sUpEr-cRaZeE Deal for Listmembers: FIVE BUCKS EACH! *I* pay postage! You sit there & wait! Books arrive "soon enough"! Please make all checks out to GARY SULLIVAN. Send orders to: Gary Sullivan 331 13th Street, #4L Brooklyn, NY 11215 Okay. Bye for now, Gary PS: Susan Schultz, DO NOT order! I owe you four billion books! They are on their way! I swear to god! You too, Hoa & Dale! Oh, and you too Mark Salerno! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:11:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: 10-4 good buddy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah thank you, Chris -- Evuh notice the neahness of e-mail cultchah to the 70s cb scene? Evuhbody loggin long hours goin' down the highway, high on stimulants, starin' straight ahayud. Ah'm hopin' theyull cast Kris Kristoffuhson as Henr' in the movie, POETRIX -- don't let the smokeys getch' -- Signed, Greg Evigan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:49:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: art & life & araboiserie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear me Mr. Kent, the literary character not the man, that was the trouble! You are created a literary character in your Khartoum letter, just as I am creating myself Mr. Davood, and Mr. Kent can say anything he wants to Mr. Davood, and vice versa, if in correct patois. So Mr. Davood is saying things apparently to Mr. Kent, but really to their audience (o yes, there is being one) on the Listserv, and Kent Johnson is not to be taken personally aback. no more should David Bromige cry aloud under the lashes of Mr. Kent if directed at back of Mr. Davood....On which misnomer, more later. And the things I am created to write cannot be about me, for I do not exist, so they are about everybody. Everybody is studding at college, measuring p-word and c-word, where to apply, etc., studding up how the collect word for harem or marry'm, one of em, old game of hunt & pecker, saucy gander get saucier goose. Hah!-- Btw, Mr. Kent, since you are so the expert on the harem, can you say where are mine gone? They sly from me who sometime did me freak, as Sir Thomas Whynot is compleynting. O lonely me! How I enjoy to put on the CW vinyl here at the hustele. How are you doing, goodlookin'? If you see her, send on home to me. When you walk down the street, my heart falls at your feet. The days and nights are getting longer. Headed for the creating side of town. I'm nobobdaddy's refining sugar now. I'm not makin' party out of lovin', just like Muskokees. Whippoorwhill not being so lonely, since I hear him. So my mentor Professor Bromige is writing upsetly to his corespondent Professor Johnson because B feels J broke the wonderfully unspoken rules. Having superbly done art in Khartoum missives, J ununderstandably turn into reallife clutch of pointed sticks. So B is saying J is the real postmodernist ping-pong backwardshot paddle champ, he himself B only one dismayed discontestant, though flatterned with your plenteous praise and ever eager for more of the seme thing, though his real motive, he is saying thru me, is me itself and a possible playmate for me, in the parallel park situation not the headon tragic mundane, where severeal issues of poetry today can be shopped if not priceless. B say moreunder "Davood" is slip of keyboard for "David," me sharing name at first with him. B is himself an apologist for misunderstanding that I am of arab world, B saying his rarely laughable broken language is sole result of himself translating psyche-wise to the London england of his first schoolings from the californica argot he is writing else to the List employing, and there is reason being the "Anglo" in "Anglo-Egyptian Sudan" tripwries old language-injuries into the bargain of outdating political boarders. Also welcome chance to do bad writing this time with intentions. Glad indeed to have gotten out of the way of that burden, may I assure you, Mr. Kent, that if meeting you means having to journey to Khartoum, let us be meeting half the way. How a jolly bout the France of the master poet Alan Jennifer Sondheim--I should liking the overwhelming intellect existence he foreshadows! Les Cafes Philosophes for us, my friend! With two wine glasses and an artifacted argument always safely between us, we shall be the very spirit McGregor and Seltza of St.Louis Germain duh Prez! I am kissing your feet, David (The Text one, not the One with the Painful Feet of himself). Oops! I had instead of been backchanneling such confidence privations! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Trakl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My spell check suggested treacle for Trakl. Anyway, this poem is called "After Trakl (2)" (title originally in English). The poet is Leopoldo Maria Panero: "Dark is the brow of the solitary man wandering through the garden where the stars have died through the motionless garden where the stars have died: and a fish in the sky gleams showing the path of excrement" Ring any bells with anyone? Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:36:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: generic charming backchannel accidently posted to the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Friend: Sorry about last night I got drunk and passed out please forgive me. I know Davood Bromide personally and am very charming and witty needless to say. I have good taste in literature and order lots of poetry books from S&M press. .... oops. This message was meant to be purely personal. I'm SOOO embarrassed. Please forget the part about passing out but not about my wit and charm. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:30:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don't recognize that, but all I have is the Honig/Brown _Poems of FP_ and the prose _Book of Disquiet_. There are similar lines scattered throughout but this one seems a bit over the top, even for this excitable boy. I could easily be wrong. Two excerpts from the Ricardo Reis heteronym and one from Álvaro de Campos: Lydia, we know nothing. We are strangers Wherever we may be. Lydia, we know nothing, We are strangers Wherever we may live . . . * * * Nothing comes of nothing. We are nothing. Briefly in sun, in air, we postpone The unbreathable darkness that weighs us down . . . . We're stories telling stories, nothing. * * * On the road to Sintra, near midnight, at the wheel in the moonlight, On the road to Sintra, tired of my own fancies, On the road to Sintra, each moment closer to Sintra, On the road to Sintra, each moment farther away from myself . . . Rachel Loden MAYHEW wrote: > > I don't now Pessoa as well as I should. There is a strange Spanish poet > who does translations, some of which have no originals behind them. Here > is my rough version of Leopoldo Maria Panero's "Imitation of Pessoa"--does > anyone recognize the poem its an imitation of? If it comes from a real > Pessoa poem it might shed light on the whole virginity question: > > Love, do not be: flee from being and let being flee from you > like a dead man, and tell it, don't touch me > like a dead man, let life not plant in me > its animal claw, for > life is a sin, love, do not be > life smells bad, love > do not be for living is a > perpetual flight from that birth that strangers > conspired against your happiness one day, from that > birth that those unknown people > wanted for you and noone could match you > because you are still a virgin, a virgin > like a saint, from life itself: > > my love, be like me, do not be. > > There are also some Trakl translations that I am trying to track down. > I'll post them soon. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:41:47 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: generic charming backchannel accidently posted to the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > > Dear Friend: > > Sorry about last night I got drunk and passed out please forgive me. > > I know Davood Bromide personally and am very charming and witty needless > to say. > > I have good taste in literature and order lots of poetry books from S&M > press. > > .... oops. This message was meant to be purely personal. I'm SOOO > embarrassed. Please forget the part about passing out but not about my > wit and charm. > > Jonathan geez--is it the return of the semester--or is this list--listing? Tb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:56:35 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On the road to Sintra, near midnight, at the wheel in the moonlight, > On the road to Sintra, tired of my own fancies, > On the road to Sintra, each moment closer to Sintra, > On the road to Sintra, each moment farther away from myself . . . Am I the only one who read this as "On the road to Sinatra..."? Tom. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:23:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: seeking to contact David Zack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My friend Maris Kundzin, not yet fully wired, is hoping to contact David Zack to obtain permission to use some Zack footage in a film Maris has made. These two dreamt up Monty Cantsin together many years ago. If anybody would be so kind as to backchannel contact info on Zack, it would be much appreciated. Regards, Jim Andrews -- V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 02:56:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: 10-4 good buddy In-Reply-To: <01bddc25$ae267ae0$38c754a6@blwczoty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ah one of my CW (Mccoll?) students just submitted a poem called "breaker, breaker". I used to have a CB and a paper-route. I'm havin' trouble with the teminology but I'm into CB-- which could stand for Charles Bernstein--one of the first mag (actually ZINE be the word, c) eds. to pub. l'il ol' me-- under a punk juvenalia psedonym (PAT RIOT, urgh), the zine called COPS HATE POETRY (not SMOKEYS---oh did i mention I'm born the same day as Jerry Reed), or CLINT BURNHAM--who edited a mag called CB and who now lives in BC and who prefers THE FALL to ACDC (methinks) (oh jimmy schuyler jackson 5 ABC) buth what if the smokeys already getcha, gotcha (like the 70s razor comercial?). he do the police in different... " he is the author of three books including COPS..." and the smokeys may then there get RACHEL LEVITSKY if she's not carful if she's gonna APE that song by Stevie Blind Boy Wonder because he gets put in prison for being unwitting FALL guy (totally wired?), but then Bill Louima plunged in and told me that my last book was written when I was a prisoner (of my own device? oh to fly like a beagle or bagel anything but HEGEL; even KANT, he's better on marriage) and I though that maybe that was true but I hope the only way out isn't to have to be baseball or hawaiin (Cow (CB)....PUNCH, the OZmuns,(frankly mup) but this be glitch glitch glitch--- glitter gulch? GULPH MILLS.("in a world of labials") standard and gamble (and huff!) proctor and poors beaker beaker 70s club scene, cub seen (exi[s]t, pursued by a bear)------ kristroffer (a beaker baby with a hairy mind) On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jordan Davis wrote: > Ah thank you, Chris -- > > Evuh notice the neahness of e-mail cultchah to the 70s cb scene? Evuhbody > loggin long hours goin' down the highway, high on stimulants, starin' > straight ahayud. Ah'm hopin' theyull cast Kris Kristoffuhson as Henr' in the > movie, POETRIX -- > > don't let the smokeys getch' -- > Signed, Greg Evigan > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: llareggub macaronics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On the road to Sinatra, around about midnight On the road to Sinatra, not Lamour, Bing or Hope On the road to Sinatra, as some limp ones came running On the road to Sinatra, where the list lost its listing On the road to Sinatra, where Antigonus exited pursued by the Pope On the road to Sinatra, where sin equals singing On the road to Sinatra, where they did shoot a poet On the road to Sinatra, then or soon after, mysterious light On the road to Sinatra, when Chris Stroffolino'd On the road to Sinatra, where we glimpsed a sonnet On the road to Sinatra, a chain rubbed with breadcrumbs On the road to Sinatra, and social significance (noone u knowed) On the road to Sinatra, nicotine had us fawning On the road to Sinatra, last line,in the small, wee hours of the morning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:14:00 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: USAdjective Content-Type: text/plain Zuleika Dobs On Elron E. Chili-Lei Nellie Chirio Holler "I . . . I . . . Ice " LeRoi Le Chini Iron Lichee-Li When Coves Dry Show Vern Dyc I give up! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 04:56:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: PhillyTalks #5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Newsletter #5, featuring Rodrigo Toscano and Alan Gilbert, is now available. Their event takes place Sept. 17, 6pm, Kelly Writers House, 3805 Locust Walk, Phila. Please renew your PhillyTalks subscription if it's lapsed. $12/5 issues. Thanks. Louis Cabri 4331 Pine St., #1R Philadelphia, PA 19104 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:05:05 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Many Dimensions: The Extensions of Marshall McLuhan ) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:33:11 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Hanke >To: cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu >Subject: Many Dimensions: The Extensions of Marshall McLuhan ) >Sender: owner-cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu > >In the fall of 1968, the University of Toronto dedicated the historic >Coach House to Marshall McLuhan as an exclusive research and teaching >facility. Thirty years later, the McLuhan Program in Culture and >Technology will celebrate this event by convening a Coach House Festival, >October 19-31, 1998. (@ the University of Toronto, Toronto, ON Canada) >Midway through the Festival, the Program will host a scholarly conference >entitled Many Dimensions: The Extensions of Marshall McLuhan, October >23-25, 1998. Contemporary scholars from multiple disciplines will be >invited to present their research on media, technology and culture in the >"global village." In order to explore the meaning and significance of >McLuhan's work for the contemporary mediascape, participants will reflect >critically on the extensions of McLuhan's ideas in their own work. >Interviews will be conducted with conference participants as part of an >ongoing oral history research project. Conference proceedings will be >recorded on video, and organizers intend to publish selected papers in >print and on CD ROM. >The conference codirectors are Derrick de Kerckhove, Liss Jeffrey and >Eric McLuhan. Our honorary conference patron is Mrs. Corinne McLuhan. >For further information, or to add your name to our email list, please >contact Bob Hanke, Conference Coordinator, rhanke@acs.ryerson.ca, or >visit our website at http://www.mcluhan.utoronto.ca/festconf.html > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:09:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: 10-4 good buddy In-Reply-To: from "louis stroffolino" at Sep 10, 98 02:56:00 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't let this pass without mentioning that we watched *Smokey and the Bandit* in its entirety late the other night and it seemed utterly alien material from another time. To conceive of it being accepted by a large-scale movie-going audience today is nearly impossible: it is almost sublime in its simplicity, its constant repetition of a single motif: The Bandit drives really fast and gets away with it. This is its one message, its one object to be contemplated, its one source of pleasure. Over and over and over the bandit drives really, really fast (never mind why) and avoids the smokeys. One waits for something else but their *isn't* something else. And after 5, 6, 7 of these, to my amazament, this becomes immensely pleasurable, the pleasure of the joke which is gut-busting funny precisely because nothing could be less funny. It occurred to me that this must have come out just after Carter lowered the speed-limit & so this must have tapped into the time-honored "get-the-govt-off-our-backs" cultural mantra - but forget that, it ruins the zen-like beauty of the thing. -m. According to louis stroffolino: > > ah one of my CW (Mccoll?) students just submitted a poem called > "breaker, breaker". I used to have a CB and a paper-route. > I'm havin' trouble with the teminology but I'm into CB-- > which could stand for Charles Bernstein--one of the first > mag (actually ZINE be the word, c) eds. to pub. l'il ol' me-- > under a punk juvenalia psedonym (PAT RIOT, urgh), the zine > called COPS HATE POETRY (not SMOKEYS---oh did i mention I'm > born the same day as Jerry Reed), > or CLINT BURNHAM--who edited a mag called CB and who > now lives in BC and who prefers THE FALL to ACDC (methinks) > (oh jimmy schuyler jackson 5 ABC) > buth what if the smokeys already getcha, gotcha (like the > 70s razor comercial?). he do the police in different... > " he is the author of three books including COPS..." > and the smokeys may then there get RACHEL LEVITSKY if she's > not carful if she's gonna APE that song by Stevie Blind Boy > Wonder because he gets put in prison for being unwitting FALL guy > (totally wired?), but then Bill Louima plunged in and told me > that my last book was written when I was a prisoner > (of my own device? oh to fly like a beagle or bagel > anything but HEGEL; even KANT, he's better on marriage) > and I though that maybe that was true > but I hope the only way out isn't to have to be baseball > or hawaiin (Cow (CB)....PUNCH, the OZmuns,(frankly mup) > but this be glitch glitch glitch--- > glitter gulch? GULPH MILLS.("in a world of labials") > standard and gamble (and huff!) > proctor and poors > beaker beaker 70s club scene, cub seen > (exi[s]t, pursued by a bear)------ > kristroffer (a beaker baby > with a hairy mind) > > > On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jordan Davis wrote: > > > Ah thank you, Chris -- > > > > Evuh notice the neahness of e-mail cultchah to the 70s cb scene? Evuhbody > > loggin long hours goin' down the highway, high on stimulants, starin' > > straight ahayud. Ah'm hopin' theyull cast Kris Kristoffuhson as Henr' in the > > movie, POETRIX -- > > > > don't let the smokeys getch' -- > > Signed, Greg Evigan > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Pessoa, there is the brand new book, _An Introduction to Fernando Pessoa_, by Darlene Sadlier_. (Univ Press of Florida), perhaps the most extensive overview of FP and company in English. The book's selected bibliography somehow omits _A Pessoa Centenary_ (Carcanet, pub. in '95 or thereabouts), which contains the only English translation (to my knowledge) of Octavio Paz's truly magisterial essay on the poet, plus loads of fantastic photos. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:18:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Pessoa In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Friends, > >Do you think Pessoa died a virgin? I was just wondering. > >Bob Holman Uh, I hope no one minds a vaguely serious question about Pessoa, but I remember several years ago a discussion of a bad translation of Pessoa (hokey pokey & all). Would anyone here care to to recommend some good ones? Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:54:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't read translations much if I know the original language (I dislike chilled soups) but I know Edwin Honig has done quite a bit of Pessoa. One edition has an intro by Octavio Paz. Since Honig is a quite interesting poet his Pessoa would be worth looking at. A few poems translated by him appear in _Poems for the Millenium_ vol. 1. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Herb: In addition to poems available in translation from Honig there is _The Book of Disquietude_, translated by Richard Zenith (Carcanet, '96). This is the novel-length and still editorially contested "journal" of Bernardo Soares, Pessoa's "semi-heteronym." Zenith's (as well as Sadlier's) introductory essay here is worth a look to give an idea of how byzantine and cut-throat is the world of Pessoa scholarship. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:27:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Beard wrote: > > On the road to Sintra, near midnight, at the wheel in the moonlight, > > On the road to Sintra, tired of my own fancies, > > On the road to Sintra, each moment closer to Sintra, > > On the road to Sintra, each moment farther away from myself . . . > > Am I the only one who read this as "On the road to Sinatra..."? > > Tom. Nope, you're not. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: smokey sightings In-Reply-To: <199809101309.JAA37310@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this smokey and the bandit talk is too wierd. two weeks ago while camping on an indian reserve in northern ontario they were playing the sound track to smokey and the bandit on the community radio station. my partner couldn't believe that i knew all the words and could sing along. she'd never heard of it. brought back good memories for some reason. i wonder when you ask if it could hold a theatre full of adults today.i wonder if it ever did or whether the theatre was just full of 11 year old boys? hmm kevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:02:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: smokey sightings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When Henry Adams talked about an accelerating historical pace he didn't know the half of it. What a concept: "Smokey and the Bandit" as an artifact of the Peaceable Kingdom. At 03:57 PM 9/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >this smokey and the bandit talk is too wierd. two weeks ago while camping >on an indian reserve in northern ontario they were playing the sound track >to smokey and the bandit on the community radio station. my partner >couldn't believe that i knew all the words and could sing along. she'd >never heard of it. brought back good memories for some reason. > >i wonder when you ask if it could hold a theatre full of adults today.i >wonder if it ever did or whether the theatre was just full of 11 year old >boys? > >hmm >kevin > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: New book from Bill Shields (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:34:51 +0000 >From: ROD SPERRY >Subject: New book from Bill Shields > >Hello all: > >We're writing to let you know about "Cordite," the new chapbook from Bill >Shields (author, "Human Shrapnel," "Lifetaker"). You may know Bill from >his many writings on Vietnam and life in the States after the war. >Whether you're familiar with his work or not, "Cordite" is a great book: >it's equal parts funny and horrifying -- a look at coping with reminders >of war everyday, everywhere, even in the most domestic settings. > >Please check out the 50 Gallons of Diesel website for more info: >http://members.tripod.com/~fifty_god/index.html > >All monies generated from sales of "Cordite" will benefit a fellow >small-press publisher in who is facing hard times. Every copy of this >limited edition of the book will be numbered and signed by Bill Shields. > >There's lots more on the site, including intros to all our authors, and >the entire script of a short documentary film about Shields. > >Thanks for your time. > >50 Gallons of Diesel >PO Box 440026, West Somerville, MA 02144 >http://members.tripod.com/~fifty_god/index.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:41:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: query from Joe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe asked me to forward this -- he's temporarily off-list. Folks: I've been off-list for awhile and have no doubt missed some fascinating discussions, but I have a favor to ask-Duncan McNaughton, whom many of you know or know of, will be giving a reading in Vancouver on or around October 10, and would like to supplement that with other readings in either Seattle, Portland or Vancouver. I know the time frame is short, but if any of you are aware of possible venues for such readings in any of those three cities-from, let's say, October 10 to the 17th-could you please contact me at jsafdie@mailnt.ctc.edu ? Duncan's un-electronic, so I'll have to be a go-between in this enterprise. Thanks in advance for any information you can forward along . . . Best, Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:54:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Tea Time with Glenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEA-TIME WITH GLENDA Glenda, the Goodhearted Arts Administrator ? and special guest Kristoff, Rebel Academic? discuss alienation on the internet and its impact on individual arts granting, travel funds for professional conferences, e-mail NEA petitions and other arts-related issues. GLENDA: My guest today is Kristoff, the Moire Effect Chair and Professor of Liminal Obfuscation at Brown Buffalo University. He is also the author, most recently, of _In the Garden of Giordano Adorno: Totalitarianism and the New Cyber Heretics_, published last year by Vervivovuva. Kristoff, I'm really happy to have you here today. Everyone at the Foundation really loved your little book. KRISTOFF: Yes, it seems to have taken on a life of its own. GLENDA: "A life of its own." Wow. I've never thought of a book having "life" before . . . but it does make an odd kind of sense. It's very "phenomenological," isn't it? [Giggles.] The cover feels just like human skin! KRISTOFF: "Giordano Adorno" is, as you know, a hippogriff. GLENDA: [Blushing.] A hippo--? KRISTOFF: --griff, yes. Though I suppose to be thoroughly post-Henna 90s about it, we'd call her a hippogrrrl, hmm? "Hippogrrrl." Oh, my. Anyway, "Theodor Bruno" just didn't seem quite as catchy. For [chuckles heartily], well, for obvious reasons. But then one becomes endlessly attendant to this sort of minutiae. Minutiae: M-i-n-u-t-i-a-e. It is all rather insect-like, isn't it? So, hmm, yes, I suppose there really was something to Cronenberg's cockroach-infested Burroughscape . . . [scribbles in noebook] . . . GLENDA: You were just inspired to write a poem, weren't you! [Long, deep sigh.] Okay. Let's go back to what you were saying before about books and life. There's a relationship between the two you seem to be connecting up. That seems so . . . radical . . . I mean-- KRISTOFF: [Interrupting.] Oh, my, well [blows nose into monogrammed handkerchief] it's very radical, Glenda, the academic climate being what it is. [Under his breath:] Byzantine cutthroats! GLENDA: I just love the way books smell! [Inhales the binding of Kristoff's book with near-perverse intensity.] How could anyone say the author is dead! Smell him! Smell him, Kristoff! [Thrusts book in Kristoff's face, knocking his glasses off.] KRISTOFF: Uhn! GLENDA: Oh my goodness! Kristoff! I'm so, so sorry! [Fumbles around on the floor, coming up with Kristoff's glasses.] I do like these glasses. A lot of our successful applicants this year are wearing them. [Looks out through Kristoff's glasses.] I'm now seeing the world as Kristoff sees the world! Such excess! And yet, such paucity! O! [Smiles, handing glasses back to Kristoff. Sing-songy:] I know someone whose travel grant is going to come through! KRISTOFF: Yes, well, where were we? GLENDA: We were talking about your book. I just get so excited talking about books. It gives me so much satisfaction to know that we have, through the Foundation, helped bring so many important books into print. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, _Giordano Adorno_ was one of them! KRISTOFF: [With slight discomfort.] Indeed it was. GLENDA: What's it about? Your book, I mean. It sounded interesting from your proposal. KRISTOFF: Let me see if I can break it down for you sans academese. I was playing with ideas about identity, speed, the body, frames, the internet, alienation, gender, sexual politics, and culture. I wanted to create a post-panopticonic site in which to see the pathology of the individual played out to its utter exhaustion against the totalitarian impulses of-- GLENDA: [Interrupting.] By "culture" you mean "multicultural"? KRISTOFF: Well . . . yes, in a sense, I suppose-- GLENDA: [Visibly relieved; filling teeny-tiny boxes with expressive checkmarks:] I thought so. Please, go on. This is truly fascinating. You're so articulate! I'm so glad you're my guest today. [Squeezes Kristoff's arm.] Hey! You have a tattoo! "I . . . heart . . . Kristeva . . ." Wow, Kristoff. You must love your mother very, very much. KRISTOFF: . . . er . . . yes . . . well, so this book, really, is the culmination of some twenty-five years of-- GLENDA: We have to cut to a commercial, Kristoff. Oh. No? We still have time? Okay, I'm sorry. Okay. Well, we have half a minute left. Listen. The Foundation is putting together an evening of readings by younger poets, we want to feature the best and the brightest . . . we put out an open call for applications, but there's just . . . [sighs] . . . well, there's just a mountain of submissions, Kristoff. We want to be fair about this, of course. So I'm wondering, since we have you here . . . as the Moire Effect Chair of Brown Buffalo, you better than anyone in the country know who the most promising young poets of today are . . . can you give us any suggestions? Lend us any arrows? Point us in the right direction? KRISTOFF: Glenda, I just happened to bring along a list of my former students, among whom you'll find-- [CUT TO COMMERCIAL . . . ] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:13:40 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Reading lists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the beginning of the summer I mentioned that I would read every book published by the members of this list. Some of you have titles which are very difficult to find, some were free, some places wanted full price no matter what, some paid me to review them, others were found on remainder, and some of you have decided to be published on presses who are eager to receive money without sending product. Shame on you's. With the exception of the latter, I have accomplished this feat. I also finished all of the other books I intended to read. As for my intention of interviewing everyone on this list, certain people paid no attention, thirty one interviews were started and two were finished. This fall, I am taking suggestions as to what I should do next. My predictions-- Many books will be published. Many books will appear in my mailbox (located at 345 E. Whittier St. Columbus OH 43206) there will be a measurable ratio between the two if there was an enthusiasm towards such. Many people will win awards, I know who some of you are already. Jordan & Chris will find a smokey place without fire hence resolving their feud. Henry's posts will slow with the student borrowing onslaught. David and Kent will let people know they have never been feuding. Dan Bouchard will visit another landmark or be given another political situation to write about. Bill Luoma will ask another odd question. The last issue of Mike & Dale & Hoa's younger poets will happen shortly after they publish something else without asking the author who happens to have years of explosives training funded by the US government. Some louse will bring up someone like Armand Schwerner again much to the chagrin of everyone. Many unintended postings will appear, one which will cause particular scandal. Jeff Clark is determined not to be an FBI agent and Jeff McDaniel will be. Someone will purposely make mistakes in false self referentially. New people will lurk on the list thinking their voice not important enough to type. In typical fashion the fashionable will appear as such except to those who have experienced the ruse of dandyism. Recently, a book crawled into the post box of the ilk I rarely see. Surely my only comfort in dead periods such as this on the list has been Tony Hoagland's Donkey Gospel. You send me a funnier book than that & I'll eat it. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:56:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Re: Pessoa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Grove Press has put out a pretty good selection translated by Richard Zenith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:59:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Mina Loy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I recently queried concerning a Mina Loy poem, but didn't know the title.The poem i'm looking for is "Anglo-Mongrels and the Rose." it's in the LastLB, sadly out-of-print. but Roger Conover was going to re-publish it. does anyone know about this? -Thanx, RQ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:02:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: query: Robert Duncan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i have become very interested in Duncan, & gather that quite a few people on the list had the privilege of knowing him personally. Would anyone be so generous as to share interesting anecdotes or memories about him? -Thanx, RQ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:29:49 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: query: Robert Duncan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ramez Ejaz Qureshi wrote: > > i have become very interested in Duncan, & gather that quite a few people on > the list had the privilege of knowing him personally. Would anyone be so > generous as to share interesting anecdotes or memories about him? > -Thanx, RQ having studied with him--sure--giv me yr e-mail address Todd B. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:31:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: Mina Loy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 10 September l998 In The Lost Lunar Baedeker:Poems edited by Roger L. Conover (Farrar, Straus, Giroux, l996), Conover did not include "Anglo-Mongrels and the Rose" but he indicates in a note where it can be found as follows: The Little Review 9:3 (Spring l923), pp. l0-l8; 9:4 (Autumn/Winter l923), pp. 41-51; ContactCollectrion of Contemporary WRiters (Paris: Three Mountains Press, l925), pp. l37-94. Hope this will be helpful. Harriet Zinnes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:57:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Tea Time with Glenda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Furher info on 'web depression' and the study discussed earlier came in my mailbox today. According to the APA Monitor the study in question is schediled for publication in _The American Psychologist, certainly one of the more rigorous journals in existence in terms of methodologies. This should put to rest some of the doubts about validity, etc., expressed earlier. The content is still open to conjecture? tom bell Gary Sullivan wrote: > > TEA-TIME WITH GLENDA > > Glenda, the Goodhearted Arts Administrator ? and special guest Kristoff, Rebel > Academic? discuss alienation on the internet and its impact on individual arts > granting, travel funds for professional conferences, e-mail NEA petitions and > other arts-related issues. > > GLENDA: My guest today is Kristoff, the Moire Effect Chair and Professor of > Liminal Obfuscation at Brown Buffalo University. He is also the author, most > recently, of _In the Garden of Giordano Adorno: Totalitarianism and the New > Cyber Heretics_, published last year by Vervivovuva. Kristoff, I'm really happy > to have you here today. Everyone at the Foundation really loved your little > book. > > KRISTOFF: Yes, it seems to have taken on a life of its own. > > GLENDA: "A life of its own." Wow. I've never thought of a book having "life" > before . . . but it does make an odd kind of sense. It's very > "phenomenological," isn't it? [Giggles.] The cover feels just like human skin! > > KRISTOFF: "Giordano Adorno" is, as you know, a hippogriff. > > GLENDA: [Blushing.] A hippo--? > > KRISTOFF: --griff, yes. Though I suppose to be thoroughly post-Henna 90s about > it, we'd call her a hippogrrrl, hmm? "Hippogrrrl." Oh, my. Anyway, "Theodor > Bruno" just didn't seem quite as catchy. For [chuckles heartily], well, for > obvious reasons. But then one becomes endlessly attendant to this sort of > minutiae. Minutiae: M-i-n-u-t-i-a-e. It is all rather insect-like, isn't it? > So, hmm, yes, I suppose there really was something to Cronenberg's > cockroach-infested Burroughscape . . . [scribbles in noebook] . . . > > GLENDA: You were just inspired to write a poem, weren't you! [Long, deep sigh.] > Okay. Let's go back to what you were saying before about books and life. > There's a relationship between the two you seem to be connecting up. That seems > so . . . radical . . . I mean-- > > KRISTOFF: [Interrupting.] Oh, my, well [blows nose into monogrammed > handkerchief] it's very radical, Glenda, the academic climate being what it is. > [Under his breath:] Byzantine cutthroats! > > GLENDA: I just love the way books smell! [Inhales the binding of Kristoff's > book with near-perverse intensity.] How could anyone say the author is dead! > Smell him! Smell him, Kristoff! [Thrusts book in Kristoff's face, knocking his > glasses off.] > > KRISTOFF: Uhn! > > GLENDA: Oh my goodness! Kristoff! I'm so, so sorry! [Fumbles around on the > floor, coming up with Kristoff's glasses.] I do like these glasses. A lot of > our successful applicants this year are wearing them. [Looks out through > Kristoff's glasses.] I'm now seeing the world as Kristoff sees the world! Such > excess! And yet, such paucity! O! [Smiles, handing glasses back to Kristoff. > Sing-songy:] I know someone whose travel grant is going to come through! > > KRISTOFF: Yes, well, where were we? > > GLENDA: We were talking about your book. I just get so excited talking about > books. It gives me so much satisfaction to know that we have, through the > Foundation, helped bring so many important books into print. In fact, if I'm > not mistaken, _Giordano Adorno_ was one of them! > > KRISTOFF: [With slight discomfort.] Indeed it was. > > GLENDA: What's it about? Your book, I mean. It sounded interesting from your > proposal. > > KRISTOFF: Let me see if I can break it down for you sans academese. I was > playing with ideas about identity, speed, the body, frames, the internet, > alienation, gender, sexual politics, and culture. I wanted to create a > post-panopticonic site in which to see the pathology of the individual played > out to its utter exhaustion against the totalitarian impulses of-- > > GLENDA: [Interrupting.] By "culture" you mean "multicultural"? > > KRISTOFF: Well . . . yes, in a sense, I suppose-- > > GLENDA: [Visibly relieved; filling teeny-tiny boxes with expressive > checkmarks:] I thought so. Please, go on. This is truly fascinating. You're so > articulate! I'm so glad you're my guest today. [Squeezes Kristoff's arm.] Hey! > You have a tattoo! "I . . . heart . . . Kristeva . . ." Wow, Kristoff. You must > love your mother very, very much. > > KRISTOFF: . . . er . . . yes . . . well, so this book, really, is the > culmination of some twenty-five years of-- > > GLENDA: We have to cut to a commercial, Kristoff. Oh. No? We still have time? > Okay, I'm sorry. Okay. Well, we have half a minute left. Listen. The Foundation > is putting together an evening of readings by younger poets, we want to feature > the best and the brightest . . . we put out an open call for applications, but > there's just . . . [sighs] . . . well, there's just a mountain of submissions, > Kristoff. We want to be fair about this, of course. So I'm wondering, since we > have you here . . . as the Moire Effect Chair of Brown Buffalo, you better > than anyone in the country know who the most promising young poets of today are > . . . can you give us any suggestions? Lend us any arrows? Point us in the > right direction? > > KRISTOFF: Glenda, I just happened to bring along a list of my former students, > among whom you'll find-- > > [CUT TO COMMERCIAL . . . ] -- http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:06:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: New book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 10 September l998 May I report that Avisson Press (3007 Taliaferro Rd., Greensboro, N.C. 27408) has just published my new short story collection entitled The Radiant Absurdity of Desire. Publishers Weekly (August l7) has given it a wonderful review. (Because I'm pleased, I'm terribly immodest. Forgive me.) HZinnes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:08:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Pessoa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > Since Honig is a quite interesting > poet his Pessoa would be worth looking at. The brief bits I posted were from the Honig _Poems of Fernando Pessoa_ (Ecco 1986). City Lights has just reprinted that title, according to Amazon. Can anyone comment on the quality of the Richard Zenith translations in _Fernando Pessoa & Co. : Selected Poems_ (Grove Press)? On the road to Dean Martin, watching the Jerry Lewis telethon, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:57:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Mina Loy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Also, not the poem itself but many things about the writing of it are in Carolyn Burke's biography of Mina, called, I think, Becoming Modern? FYI Elizabeth Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:34:31 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Exact Change will publish "Anglo-Mongrels and the Rose" Content-Type: text/plain Mina Loy Loin Yam In my --!? Alo? Daniel Zimmerman Amazed Rimm'n Neil I'm Zed "Merman-Nail" Harriet Zinnes I ran the N-sizer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:31:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbuuck Subject: PESSOA Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" re original query re pessoa's virginity... in his wonderful introductory essay to the neat little photo-biography "Fernando Pessoa" put out by Hazan's Pocket Archive (1997), Antonio Tabucchi makes reference to a brief relationship b/t pessoa & one Ophelia Soares Qeuiroz (not a heteronym!), a relationship "entirely played out on a level which involved pain and suffering, morbidity, and possibly self-inflicted injury." beneath one of two photos of ophelia the text refers to the relationship as "amorous"... there is also a copy of a plan drawn up by pessoa to walk Ophelia home from work via a route that would maximize the time spent together... in jose saramago's novel The Year of the Death of Ricardo Reis, more amorous adventures are imagined (?) for pessoa. in william boyd's story "Cork" (in the collection The Destiny of Nathalie X ), there are explicit sex scenes between a young woman and 3 different heteronymic versions of Pessoa, each with a different ... technique. Tabucchi has also invoked Pessoa in his fiction, in the wonderous & melancholic Requim: A Hallucination, tho without any carnal activities... In addition to the famous heteronyms Caeiro, Campos, & Reis, there are also Bernardo Soares (of the Book of Disquiet), Raphael Baldaya, Antonio Mora, Charles Robert Anon, Alexander Search, A.A. Crosse, C. Pacheco, the Barao di Tieve, Pantaleao, Vicente Guede, Abilio Quaresma, and others. Most had their own horoscopes, bibliographies, philosophies & aesthetics. Critics of each other in print & private. A.A. Crosse won a famous puzzle contest & loaned the winnings to Pessoa in order to buy a home for him & Ophelia... Soares spoke I believe of writing as an expression of shared solitude. On his deathbed, his last words were "Hand me my glasses..." T. Bartleby Jones ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Exact Change will publish "Anglo-Mongrels and the Rose" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natalia Pang wrote: > > Mina Loy > > Loin Yam > > In my --!? Alo? > > Daniel Zimmerman > > Amazed Rimm'n Neil > > I'm Zed "Merman-Nail" > > Harriet Zinnes > > I ran the N-sizer > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com :) :-) :\) :~) ;=) Some names have no anagrams. - Mind a Merlin Maze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: sm Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable a hundred years ago (well, on 9 sept 1898) St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 died. odd to think that it took until the 1960s to see the publication of his "Le Livre" =8B the great impossible score for what was absolutely not a "book" bu= t a performance score. even odder, in a way, to think that it took until the 1970s to see the firs= t edition that complied with the poet's own specifications (page size, type size, etc.) of his "Coup de D=E9." a new biography & a new augmented & revised edition of his works (a Pl=E9iade volume) have just come out. This week's "Cahier Livres" in the daily Lib=E9ration has good articles on both & on the man: http://www.liberation.fr/livres/980910mallarme.html pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent America whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: NYC Millennium Reading Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_2988350937_3939094_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_2988350937_3939094_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable For those in & around Cuidad de Nueva York: Tuesday 15 September 7:30 pm Barnes & Noble on Astor Place A celebratory reading for POEMS OF THE MILLENNIUM VOL II: POSTWAR TO MILLENNIUM with: Jerome Rothenberg & Pierre Joris Charles Bernstein Carolee Schneeman Bruce Andrews Judith Malina Eliot Weinberger Nathaniel Tarn Cecilia Vicu=F1a Jackson Mac Low Armand Schwerner =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent America whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --MS_Mac_OE_2988350937_3939094_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable NYC Millennium Reading

For those in & around Cuidad de Nueva York:

Tuesday 15 September 7:30 pm

Barnes & Noble on Astor Place

A celebratory reading for

POEMS OF THE MILLENNIUM VOL II: POSTWAR TO MILLENNIUM

with:

Jerome Rothenberg & Pierre Joris
Charles Bernstein
Carolee Schneeman
Bruce Andrews
Judith Malina
Eliot Weinberger
Nathaniel Tarn
Cecilia Vicu=F1a
Jackson Mac Low
Armand Schwerner



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pierre Joris
joris@csc.albany.edu
http://www.albany.edu/~joris/
6 Madison Place
Albany NY 12202
tel: 518 426 0433
fax: 518 426 3722
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
It is an absent America whose
presence is at stake
=8B Robin Blaser
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--MS_Mac_OE_2988350937_3939094_MIME_Part-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:45:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: more sm Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable re mallarme's "centenaire" -- an excellent website on the poet can be foun= d at: http://www.mallarme.org/index2.htm =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent America whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:31:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Nedge Six Forget the Ken Starr report. Announcing the release of Nedge #6, your orphic alternative. 84 pp., perfect bound, cover design by the very late Henry Gould. Edited by Janet Sullivan and the said very late one. To order, send $6.00 to Nedge, PO Box 2321, Providence, RI 02906. Nedge is produced by a posse of all-volunteer cow-punchers; your $6. helps keep us ridin' the dusty trail, yeehah. Contributors this round-up include many a list-ranger (all contributors' copies have been mailed): Poetry: Jonathan Brannen, Mark McCloskey, Beth Simon, Patrick Durgin, Mitch Corber, Gwyn McVay, Errol Miller, Carrie Etter, James Armstrong, Lee Sharkey, Fernand Rocqueplan, Bill Keith, Frances LeMoine, Nava Fader, Bob Heman, Jacqueline K. Gendre, D.E. Steward, Brad Burkholder, Stuart Blazer, Mark Wallace, Rick Snyder, Joe Safdie, Joel Lewis, Paula Tatarunis, Tim Wood, Elizabeth Robinson, Henry Gould; Fiction: Alfred Schwaid (Nedge has published a number of stories by this wonderful writer) and Janet Sullivan; Translations: Jesse Glass, Patrick Hutchinson, Valery Chereshnya, Ana Mafalda Leite (French, Portuguese, Russian, Old English). Please BACKCHANNEL all queries to: Henry_Gould@brown.edu. Thanks one & all. Especially to List rodeo cowpoke managers. Yeehah, giddyup & so forth. p.s. what is Nedge? Nedge is the current incarnation of one of the older little magazines around (started as Harbinger in 1969; Northeast Journal, mid-70s [ie., NEJ]; Nedge, early 90s). We are able to draw on a large submissions base and try to emphasize the individual poem rather than the poet, the group, or the trend. We have published well-known & prizewinning poets, but are equally proud to keep publishing new & "unknown" writers. Despite the Neanderthal tone of poetics list postings by that guy Henry Gould, we have published poets like Leslie Scalapino & Rosmarie Waldrop & other real avant-garde types!! & we are very happy for the opportunity to consider poems, prose, essays & reviews from list members. [snail mail only please, with SASE, to: Nedge, POB 2321, Providence, RI 02906] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:02:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Barque Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I seem to have lost the e-address for barque books -- would appreciate it if someone could backchannel it to me. thanks ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:38:10 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: P=H=I=L=A=D=E=L=P=H=I=A Content-Type: text/plain I'm doing two Fringe Fest gigs: A panel on NEA, funding and the Arts (i.e. the "Karen Finley supreme court decision"), with Carlin Romano, editor of the books section of the Inquirer & sometime Nation contributor; Roberto Bedoya, head of the Natl Assoc of Arts Orgs; the Inky's dance critic and a "curator" to be named later. Sunday, 9/13, at Silicon Gallery, 139 N. 3rd St (Old City), 1 PM, and a reading with Linh Dihn, poet & translator of Vietnamese short fiction, at Helena's Cabaret, Chestnut & Front, Friday, 9/18 at either 9 or 9:30 (I've got flyers with conflicting times!). Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:41:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Milton query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit when i was but a five year old lad i read that John Milton 99 times in his life gave head could anyone this verify & ya think count kept he? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:43:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Poetry Daily In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Today, Friday, September 11th, Paul Hoover's poem is on "Poetry Daily." Visit it at www.poems.com. Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Poetry Daily Comments: To: MAXINE CHERNOFF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for the heads up, Maxine. But when I go to that site this is what I get. Poem of the Day OUR TOWN Ryan J. Cunningham Leaving our town you just can't do All of us here will be missing you Good luck where ever you may roam Remember our town will always be home Having you in our town has been fun Sorry to see your time here is done. ---------- From: MAXINE CHERNOFF To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Poetry Daily Date: Friday, September 11, 1998 3:43PM Today, Friday, September 11th, Paul Hoover's poem is on "Poetry Daily." Visit it at www.poems.com. Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:54:45 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Re: NYC Millennium Reading Content-Type: text/plain At Barnes & Noble? Better to read in a park or at some friend's apartment than at Barnes & Noble People say, They have so many books I want, right there in one place! and I say Fuck you, you're lazy Most important, B and N fiercely anti-union, aren't they ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's an idea for an oblique but handsome kind of federal support for the arts. The Starr report, now so generously supplied us via internet, is, I believe, public domain. What's to keep some poetry press or presses from publishing an illustrated edition? The proceeds should cover the production costs of a lot of poetry books. My guess is that every member of the federal and state legislatures would want one immediately, a hefty number of sales even before the general public lines up. As to illustrations, use your imaginations. My own idea would be, since photos of the faces of celebrities are also public property (no libel law protection there), to attach said images (and throw Starr in for good measure) to body doubles behaving in an illustrative manner. I throw this out for whoever wishes. I myself am too overcome with lethargy to profit from my own idea. An acknowledgement on the copyright page would be nice, tho. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Federal arts support Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Needless to say, childrens' eyes should be shielded from my last post. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:44:13 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: NYC Millennium Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natalia Pang wrote: > At Barnes & Noble? particularly in NYC. gives no faith in those milleni+um readers. why, indeed. a small detail perphaps. not at the Y. or maybe some even mildly neutral space. why? its not like a publisher thing. not like yous goin to get a general dilletante audience. are yous trying to get buyers? so much for that. so much for that. what margins, what margins, what margins. i don't understand really. its the kind of oversight oversight oversight oversight that gives the institute gardey avantes a bad fu=cking mane, mc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:01:53 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Best Sellers (?) Content-Type: text/plain Here's something almost as lurid as the story of the cigar in the Starr Report. A co-worker [the author of _God Save the Quarterback_, a sports book about US style football in the UK, to be exact] pointed this out to me and I pass it along more for bemusement than enlightenment, but... Amazon.com now claims to have rank ordered all 3,000,000 books it claims to sell in terms of their sales figures. In theory, at least, this presents a poetry "best sellers" list. There are obvious problems here. I for one tend to get my books from three sources -- SPD, Bridge Street Books & directly from publishers -- none of which would ever get counted by such a system. And I suspect that small press buyers in general will stay away from Amazon, so the list is all the more suspect. And it exists in a world in which Tom Clancy is still #1. Thus saying nothing about value (or, perhaps, all too much). Of course, Mr. Clancy is about to be displaced by Kenneth Starr when that hits your checkout counter at the Super G next Tuesday (the first mass distributed porn novel!). But... Here are some rankings as of yesterday (out of a possible 3 million). Wherever there was a choice, I chose the paperback to check. Ted Hughes, The Birthday Letters, 1,835 Best American Poetry, 1998 3,761 AG, Howl & Other Poems 3,890 (after 43 years!) Donald Hall, Without 14,135 Poems for the Millenium, Vol 2 24,970 Poems for the Millenium, Vol 1 33,095 Allen Ginsberg, Collected Poems 33,291 Jorie Graham, Dream of a Unified Field 44,291 (not a typo) JD McClatchy, Ten Commandments 70,244 Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book 89,148 Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 Robert Hass, Sun Under Wood 97,067 Celan, Breathturn 98,518 Perelman, Marginalization of Poetry 128,700 Ashbery, Can You Hear, Bird 134,833 Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 Dana Gioia, Gods of Winter 151,311 Jorie Graham, Errancy 154,316 Perloff, Radical Artifice 163,982 Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 In the American Tree 189,557 Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 Watten, Frame 219,401 Hejinian, The Cold of Poetry 245,352 Elaine Equi, Decoy 247,338 Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 Bernstein, Close Listening 356,420 Watten, Total Syntax 362,114 Coolidge, Crystal Text 389,892 Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 Perelman, Virtual Reality 462,792 Perelman, Writing/Talks 522,751 Armantrout, Made to Seem 566,537 RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, Leningrad 665,959 Silliman, Demo to Ink 771,155 Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) Fanny Howe, The End 920,071 O'Sullivan, Out of Everywhere 1,061,724 Bromige, Harbormaster of Hong Kong 1,146,129 Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 There are presumably two million books available through Amazon that sell less well than does Jim Brodey's collected (which I own and recommend, but would not buy through Amazon). I will leave this to the sociologists of the imagination (Gary Sullivan, are you out there?) to contemplate what any of this might mean. Ron Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:53:09 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Brian Lucas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Lucas: If you are there, please backchannel with current contact info (address, phone, e-mail). Thank you. Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: simon@home2.mysolution.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beth lee simon Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Silliman wrote: > > Here's something almost as lurid as the story of the cigar in the Starr > Report. > > A co-worker [the author of _God Save the Quarterback_, a sports book > about US style football in the UK, to be exact] pointed this out to me > and I pass it along more for bemusement than enlightenment, but... > > Amazon.com now claims to have rank ordered all 3,000,000 books it claims > to sell in terms of their sales figures. In theory, at least, this > presents a poetry "best sellers" list. > > There are obvious problems here. I for one tend to get my books from > three sources -- SPD, Bridge Street Books & directly from publishers -- > none of which would ever get counted by such a system. And I suspect > that small press buyers in general will stay away from Amazon, so the > list is all the more suspect. > > And it exists in a world in which Tom Clancy is still #1. Thus saying > nothing about value (or, perhaps, all too much). Of course, Mr. Clancy > is about to be displaced by Kenneth Starr when that hits your checkout > counter at the Super G next Tuesday (the first mass distributed porn > novel!). > > But... > > Here are some rankings as of yesterday (out of a possible 3 million). > Wherever there was a choice, I chose the paperback to check. > > Ted Hughes, The Birthday Letters, 1,835 > Best American Poetry, 1998 3,761 > AG, Howl & Other Poems 3,890 (after 43 years!) > Donald Hall, Without 14,135 > Poems for the Millenium, Vol 2 24,970 > Poems for the Millenium, Vol 1 33,095 > Allen Ginsberg, Collected Poems 33,291 > Jorie Graham, Dream of a Unified Field 44,291 (not a typo) > JD McClatchy, Ten Commandments 70,244 > Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 > Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 > The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book 89,148 > Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 > Robert Hass, Sun Under Wood 97,067 > Celan, Breathturn 98,518 > Perelman, Marginalization of Poetry 128,700 > Ashbery, Can You Hear, Bird 134,833 > Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 > Dana Gioia, Gods of Winter 151,311 > Jorie Graham, Errancy 154,316 > Perloff, Radical Artifice 163,982 > Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 > In the American Tree 189,557 > Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 > Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 > Watten, Frame 219,401 > Hejinian, The Cold of Poetry 245,352 > Elaine Equi, Decoy 247,338 > Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 > Bernstein, Close Listening 356,420 > Watten, Total Syntax 362,114 > Coolidge, Crystal Text 389,892 > Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 > Perelman, Virtual Reality 462,792 > Perelman, Writing/Talks 522,751 > Armantrout, Made to Seem 566,537 > RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, Leningrad 665,959 > Silliman, Demo to Ink 771,155 > Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) > Fanny Howe, The End 920,071 > O'Sullivan, Out of Everywhere 1,061,724 > Bromige, Harbormaster of Hong Kong 1,146,129 > Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 > > There are presumably two million books available through Amazon that > sell less well than does Jim Brodey's collected (which I own and > recommend, but would not buy through Amazon). > > I will leave this to the sociologists of the imagination (Gary Sullivan, > are you out there?) to contemplate what any of this might mean. > > Ron > > Ron Silliman > ron.silliman@gte.net > rsillima@hotmail.com > > DO NOT RESPOND to > Tottels@Hotmail.com > It is for listservs only. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Earlier this week, msnbc.com ran an article questioning amazon.com net worth reports, and suggesting that they were both unreliable and possibly manipulated. I don't know how one goes about reading "back issues" of a website such as msnbc, (obviously, I didn't try to retrieve this one) but articles should be retrievable somehow. beth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:36:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Bestsellers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ron: I don't think these figures mean much at all, except as a kind of very short term index of orders. For example, someone wrote to me about a month ago to tell me that lo and behold, when he had looked a couple days back, _Doubled Flowering_ was ranked at 4,000 something out of 3 million titles. When I went to check, hardly believing this could be true, the book ws listed at 29,000 or so. I went back a few days later, and sure enough, there it was, pushing 10,000. Today, after reading your post, I checked again: Now it has crashed down to 295,265! Clearly, such wild fluctuations are caused by little conjunctural sale-blips in a given week or two, most likely class orders for poetry titles. You don't really think these rankings suggest that there may yet be hope for poetry in the market, do you? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:02:25 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) Content-Type: text/plain Ted Hughes, The Birdy Leers, 1,835 Best American Pot, 1998 3,761 AG, owl & her ems 3,890 (after 43 years!) Donald Hall, Wo 14,135 Poems for the num, Vol 2 24,970 Poems for the num, Vol 1 33,095 Allen Ginsberg, Colom 33,291 Jorie Graham, Dram of a fed i 44,291 (not a typo) JD McClatchy, I'm a fucky Bozo! 70,244 Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 The L=U=N=G=R=A=G=E Book 89,148 Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 Robert Hass, Morning Wood 97,067 Celan, Breathturn 98,518 Perelman, gila of Poetry 128,700 Ashbery, no ear, Bird 134,833 Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 Dana Gioia, Molestor 151,311 Jorie Graham, Ern 154,316 Perloff, Radical ice 163,982 Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 In the American Tree 189,557 Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 Watten, ram 219,401 Hejinian, The Cotry 245,352 Elaine Equi, coy 247,338 Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 Bernstein, Close ting 356,420 Watten, Tax 362,114 Coolidge, tex 389,892 Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 Perelman, Virity 462,792 Perelman, Wralks 522,751 Armantrout, Made teem 566,537 RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, L'ning rad 665,959 Silliman, Dink 771,155 Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) Fanny Howe, Td 920,071 O'Sullivan, Ouf 1,061,724 Bromige, Harm aster of Hogo 1,146,129 Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:45:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Rankings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Oops, as they say, I see in checking the post I mentioned that it was not 4,000 some, but 14,000 some. Yasusada never did climb that high in the Amazon rankings, I guess. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:55:48 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: 10-4 good buddy Content-Type: text/plain Personally, I see Robin Williams as Stroffolino & Tom Hanks as Davis. What about you-all? > ah one of my CW (Mccoll?) students just submitted a poem called > "breaker, breaker". I used to have a CB and a paper-route. > I'm havin' trouble with the teminology but I'm into CB-- > which could stand for Charles Bernstein--one of the first > mag (actually ZINE be the word, c) eds. to pub. l'il ol' me-- > under a punk juvenalia psedonym (PAT RIOT, urgh), the zine > called COPS HATE POETRY (not SMOKEYS---oh did i mention I'm > born the same day as Jerry Reed), > or CLINT BURNHAM--who edited a mag called CB and who > now lives in BC and who prefers THE FALL to ACDC (methinks) > (oh jimmy schuyler jackson 5 ABC) > buth what if the smokeys already getcha, gotcha (like the > 70s razor comercial?). he do the police in different... > " he is the author of three books including COPS..." > and the smokeys may then there get RACHEL LEVITSKY if she's > not carful if she's gonna APE that song by Stevie Blind Boy > Wonder because he gets put in prison for being unwitting FALL guy > (totally wired?), but then Bill Louima plunged in and told me > that my last book was written when I was a prisoner > (of my own device? oh to fly like a beagle or bagel > anything but HEGEL; even KANT, he's better on marriage) > and I though that maybe that was true > but I hope the only way out isn't to have to be baseball > or hawaiin (Cow (CB)....PUNCH, the OZmuns,(frankly mup) > but this be glitch glitch glitch--- > glitter gulch? GULPH MILLS.("in a world of labials") > standard and gamble (and huff!) > proctor and poors > beaker beaker 70s club scene, cub seen > (exi[s]t, pursued by a bear)------ > kristroffer (a beaker baby > with a hairy mind) > > >On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jordan Davis wrote: > >> Ah thank you, Chris -- >> >> Evuh notice the neahness of e-mail cultchah to the 70s cb scene? Evuhbody >> loggin long hours goin' down the highway, high on stimulants, starin' >> straight ahayud. Ah'm hopin' theyull cast Kris Kristoffuhson as Henr' in the >> movie, POETRIX -- >> >> don't let the smokeys getch' -- >> Signed, Greg Evigan >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 21:05:08 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: mag nets from PaperBrainPress Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAG NETS by M Magoolaghan, 20pp, PaperBrainPress1860 Pacific Beach Drive #4, San Diego, CA 92109, Tiles pulled randomly from packaging, loose letters and uncropped combinations arranged as they were found provided the method of composition used in this text. The result is an extremely fractured sequence which, beginning in near gibberish, gradually establishes its own idiom. An idiom which mirrors beautifully the abundance of textual fracture with which we are surrounded as each day offers its selection of billboards, packaging, headlines, notices and tickets. The author's decision to minimise editing puts it up to the reader: are you going to look for significance? does it hold together? is it fun? Yes to the last anyway, for the rest you're on your own. There is a pleasant suggestion underlying this assembly of relics, that "this too will pass' and in places a hint of the process of language change as the jumps and truncations assert an odd but self-consistent syntax. a s a r put egg out fast swim arm is beat leg do lazy day flood ing black spring The design of the book is charming, size 106 mm x 221 mm just right for the drawing of the double doored fridge which takes up the cover (the theme continues on the back cover with a drawing of all those loops for pumping out the heat) . The title and author's name are tricked out as fridge magnets. I didn't mention that after pages of short lines as in the example above there's a block of text about a third of a page long that in that context has the effect of a choir bursting out from behind a bush at a picnic. Long live PBP. Randolph Healy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark Flash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NEW & ON VIEW A Flash Poem from Mudlark * * _News That Stays_ by Kenneth Sherwood * * MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:02:01 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Numbers Content-Type: text/plain Obviously, I don't think the numbers here can be trusted -- even if they are not tampered with in any way, the source itself makes it a far cry from any kind of neutral perspective. Amazon.com is attractive to a particular kind of web buyer, generally, plus some other types under particular circumstances. But I did look at those numbers both hopefully and in despair. Hopefully, because well, darn, there are 2 million books that come AFTER the very last of my examples. In despair, thinking of what numbers like those mean for the distribution of poetry in general bookstores period. Think of the medium sized independent book store with room for 50,000 titles max. How many books of poetry will they carry and of what sort? On the third hand, however, I was intrigued that the inherent "top of mind" bias I would expect regarding the NY trade houses did not show up more pronouncedly. Certainly, those presses will be more widely represented in my hypothetical 50K title independent, where distribution comes much more into play, and even moreso in the chains. Yet, move them just one step away from that sort of distribution bias, like a virtual service would, and the playing field levels significantly. They may still get all the reviews in the NYT and NYBR, but it's a pleasure to see Ginsberg, Poems for the Millenium and Sun & Moon books represented as highly as they are. And it's great to see Lew Welch (one of my tests for The Disappeared) show up so highly. Unfortunately, Amazon claimed not to have heard of Joe Ceravolo when I searched. But as Pound, Creeley, Spicer, Judy Grahn, Lee Hickman and others have all already proven, you can change the world of poetry with just a few copies of anything if you just get them into the hands of their best possible audience. Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) In-Reply-To: <19980912190226.22654.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, Natalia, order me up a couple copies of DINK.... or at least VIRILITY, with a side order of poems for the num--either volume...... thanks, chris On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Natalia Pang wrote: > Ted Hughes, The Birdy Leers, 1,835 > Best American Pot, 1998 3,761 > AG, owl & her ems 3,890 (after 43 years!) > Donald Hall, Wo 14,135 > Poems for the num, Vol 2 24,970 > Poems for the num, Vol 1 33,095 > Allen Ginsberg, Colom 33,291 > Jorie Graham, Dram of a fed i 44,291 (not a typo) > JD McClatchy, I'm a fucky Bozo! 70,244 > Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 > Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 > The L=U=N=G=R=A=G=E Book 89,148 > Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 > Robert Hass, Morning Wood 97,067 > Celan, Breathturn 98,518 > Perelman, gila of Poetry 128,700 > Ashbery, no ear, Bird 134,833 > Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 > Dana Gioia, Molestor 151,311 > Jorie Graham, Ern 154,316 > Perloff, Radical ice 163,982 > Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 > In the American Tree 189,557 > Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 > Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 > Watten, ram 219,401 > Hejinian, The Cotry 245,352 > Elaine Equi, coy 247,338 > Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 > Bernstein, Close ting 356,420 > Watten, Tax 362,114 > Coolidge, tex 389,892 > Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 > Perelman, Virity 462,792 > Perelman, Wralks 522,751 > Armantrout, Made teem 566,537 > RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, L'ning rad 665,959 > Silliman, Dink 771,155 > Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) > Fanny Howe, Td 920,071 > O'Sullivan, Ouf 1,061,724 > Bromige, Harm aster of Hogo 1,146,129 > Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:33:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: 10-4 good buddy In-Reply-To: <199809101309.JAA37310@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I can't let this pass without mentioning that we watched *Smokey and the >Bandit* in its entirety late the other night and it seemed utterly alien >material from another time. .. >the pleasure of the joke which is >gut-busting funny precisely because nothing could be less funny. How is this different from Seinfeld? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 07:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: 10-4 good buddy In-Reply-To: from "George Bowering" at Sep 13, 98 00:33:58 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess the difference would lie in the single-mindedness of the bandit scenario - no weaving of various plots (part of the fun of Seinfeld, where various jokes end up surprisingly in dialogue) - and also none of Seinfeld's ironic winking, his pop-post-mod admission that its all artifice. Smokey and the Bandit is straight up and it assumes that speeding without getting pulled over is transcendental good fun. -m. According to George Bowering: > > >I can't let this pass without mentioning that we watched *Smokey and the > >Bandit* in its entirety late the other night and it seemed utterly alien > >material from another time. .. > >the pleasure of the joke which is > >gut-busting funny precisely because nothing could be less funny. > > How is this different from Seinfeld? > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) In-Reply-To: from "louis stroffolino" at Sep 13, 98 03:00:46 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit louis stroffolino wrote: > > > Dana Gioia, Molestor 151,311 Dear Mr. "s," I resent it! I never molest... poetry. Dana Gardenia -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:41:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: PESSOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 "T. Bartleby Jones" (dbuuck@SIRIUS.COM) wrote about the ways in which later 20th century heterosexuals have taken Fernando Pessoa as one of their own, giving him an enviable sexual afterlife . . . We might also take a look at Donald Mager's entry on Pessoa in the "Gay and Lesbian Literary Heritage" (Henry Holt, 1995) in which FP is refigured into a kind of Portuguese Langston Hughes, refined, dandyish, left-leaning, virginal, but obsessed, in his English poems, with A E Housman, Hadrian, Antinous, and (as "Alvaro de Campos") with the shamanic gay interpenetrative spirit of Walt Whitman. His heteronyms, etc., in this essay seen as a species of drag performativity. But I know next to nothing about Pessoa and perhaps there really was an "Ophelia." See you . . . Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:50:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: WORD SCORE UTTERANCE TEXT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all concerned as contributors or potential readers, _the visual poetry book_ edited by Upton and Cobbing and including many from USA and Canada, now entitled WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY and now with the ISBN 0 86162 750 4 goes to the printers this week, at what looks like 156 pages, after a couple of last minute adjustments - and it is hoped that it will be out quite quickly. I know when it is hoped to launch but will keep shtumm until I know if it's possible. Quite soon though. More news when available. I suspended my mail for about a month while I was away and haven't caught up yet so please forgive me if this has been listed already - for those interested not just in the work of Bob Cobbing but in visual and sound poetry generally may I recommend BALLET OF THE SPEECH ORGANS: BOB COBBING ON BOB COBBING an interview by Steven Ross Smith published after 17 years... A very intleligent I mean intelligent interview and therefore worth getting though I strongly suspect Bob would not stand by everything in it now. Underwhich Editions, Toronto ISBN 0 88658 096 X All best Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:43:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Rukeyser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone know about publication plans for a complete Rukeyser? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:32:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Numbers In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:02:01 PDT from On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:02:01 PDT Ron Silliman said: > >But as Pound, Creeley, Spicer, Judy Grahn, Lee Hickman and others have >all already proven, you can change the world of poetry with just a few >copies of anything if you just get them into the hands of their best >possible audience. On the other hand, you could decide there is no "world of poetry". That audience-measuring and political/status considerations are irrelevant. You could look out onto Desolation Row. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:42:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shana Subject: atomic universal stories (was rukeyser) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to the Paris Press website (www.westmass.com/Paris-Press), which I believe was last updated in the beginning of 1998, they have "plans" to publish Rukeyser's _Collected Poems_ "soon." Hope this helps. shana ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:51:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Yes, the right words in the right hands, that's all it takes! So why don't Content-Type: text/plain all 600 of us send several poems to: baucus , inhofe , wyden , johnson , warner , kyl , mccain , stevens , murkowski , Bumpers , Dodd , Biden , Roth , Mack , Cleland , Coverdell , Akaka , Kempthorne , Durbin , Moseley , Lugar , Grassley , Harkin , Brownback , Ford , McConnell , Breaux , Collins , Snowe , Mikulski , Sarbanes , Kennedy , Kerry , Abraham , Levin , Cochran , Lott , Ashcroft , Bond , Baucus , Burns , Hagel , Bryan , Gregg , Smith , Lautenberg , Torricelli , Bingaman , Domenici , "D'Amato" , Moynihan , Helms , Dorgan , DeWine , Inhofe , Nickles , Specter , Chafee , Thurmond , Daschle , Johnson , Thompson , Hutchison , Bennett , Hatch , Jeffords , Murray , Byrd , Rockefeller , Kohl , Enzi , Thomas , boxer , feinstein , craig , inouye , kerry , reid ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:29:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Something to do when depressed (in whose hands?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Quixotic? Pointless? Stupid? Well, it was either this or balem them for GEARING UP THE COLD WAR rhetoric against russia again.... their "capitalism =democracy", etc..... c ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 11:39:33 -0400 (EDT) From: louis stroffolino To: letters@newsweek.com Subject: Art for Autumn Dear Letters Editor: I found your fall preview of movies, books, music, and art [ART FOR AUTUMN, Sept. 7, 1998] informative, eclectic, and enjoyable. It was a pleasant surprise to see the likes of P.J. Harvey and Joshua Redman mentioned alongside of more commercially popular artists such as Alanis Morisette and Stephen King. I cannot help but notice, however, that in an article devoted to promoting (or at least exposing consumers to) a wide range of new art/entertainment product, the conspicious lack of any books of poetry on this list. This lack is made even more conspicious, for me, by the fact that you actually quote both John Keats and Robert Frost in your introduction to the list--neither of whom, presumably, have any new "product" for sale. I am aware that conventional market wisdom says poetry--especially contemporary poetry-- does not sell, but with the recent erosion of NEA funding for poets and trends in publishing that make it more difficult for poets who are not already "stars" in other fields (Jewel, Jimmy Carter) to find major distribution for their books, I cannot help but wonder if one of the main reasons contemporary poetry doesn't sell--or is even read as much as Frost or Keats--is because forums like Newsweek do not consider it worthy of attention in the company of Tom Wolfe, Jackson Pollock, and Harold Bloom. To answer your question: "Should we quote more poetry?" Yes, but it would be even better if you REVIEWED it as well. Chris Stroffolino 331 13th St. #4L Brooklyn, NY. 11215 (718)-499-1697 (N.b. words in CAPS should be italicized!). Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: you can hear them blow In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nah, you gotta look out FROM desolation row to do so..... c.s On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, henry gould wrote: > On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:02:01 PDT Ron Silliman said: > > > >But as Pound, Creeley, Spicer, Judy Grahn, Lee Hickman and others have > >all already proven, you can change the world of poetry with just a few > >copies of anything if you just get them into the hands of their best > >possible audience. > > On the other hand, you could decide there is no "world of poetry". > That audience-measuring and political/status considerations are > irrelevant. You could look out onto Desolation Row. - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:00:09 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: watch what you buy Comments: To: british n irish poets , poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Welcome to Bill Griffiths' NOMAD SENSE (Talus Editions, c/o English Department, King's College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS; four pound fifty or eight dollars). These are poems of un-rootedness, and of the rejection of security - they carry on, in some ways, from the poems of "vegetable passion" in _Rousseau & the Wicked_ (Invisible Books 1996), reflecting, perhaps, Bill's shifts between the Durham coast at Seaham and his work in the Eric Mottram Archive in the wicked city. They live under an image: "The future belongs to those who are mobile" which Bill sources as "communications advert in Time 22 Nov 1993 opposite a chart showing the rise from 2 million to 18 million refugees around the world 1976-1992, according to United Nations figures": the contrasts and oppositions run through the book: here's a different take on "talk with the animals" from "More Binaries": __________________________________________________ .V. bats use speech to determine distance that's fine lions by that express pain and we are boxes gesticulate or did we learn to talk from dolphins - the aim inter-special communication? or the major function language a control _________________________________________________________ - and here's the closing bit of "Seed-Time" - a distinctly non-wordsworthian view of seed packets...: _________________________________________________________ [...] in the print OK it proclaims you cannot know words are robbers the plant-mothers are sourced lamp-oil we encounter kicks the giantipede abune the capsule it lolls 'n' snicks engenders ginger knee-tufts with vile zeal pods open prime see the sexual act of butterflies this label be accorded asked to suggest epitomes, the shop-place huckster-docks play-to orb-jewels the arena of leaf it pitters, it spits am emulant, sustained sense pride fract' neo-growth slipoclasm there is no noval spasm apt increase rows of radiants into this packet into that watch what you buy ____________________________________________ RC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 06:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Internet & Depression Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01BDDFA5.E5E17D80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BDDFA5.E5E17D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Today's New York Times has a piece on the criticisms that have been = directed to the Home Net study on the internet & depression: http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/09/biztech/articles/14digicom.html= Complete with links Ron ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BDDFA5.E5E17D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Today's New York Times has = a piece on=20 the criticisms that have been directed to the Home Net study on the = internet=20 & depression:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/09/biztech/articles/14di= gicom.html
 
Complete with links
 
Ron
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BDDFA5.E5E17D80-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:11:09 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "d.j. huppatz" Subject: textbase website update Comments: cc: clare.huppatz@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dear listfolk ANNOUNCING an update to the TEXTBASE webpage featuring experimental writing & visual art projects from MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA. TEXTBASE has been operating for a few years as a loose collective of writers working in the visual arts scene & we are now publishing our own literary journal. the TEXTBASE webpage features a complete documentation of our visual arts projects as well as the first two issues of the journal. there are also some interesting hypertext pieces on the webpage - i recommend benjamin brady's "a is for geophysics" for those of you with good graphics & sound. any comments/criticism/inquiries appreciated. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE: i still have six hard copies of the first two issues of the journal which i'm willing to send to interested parties. this is a free offer but swaps for your journal/chapbook/whatever would be great. backchannel a name & address. dan huppatz melbourne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:41:26 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "d.j. huppatz" Subject: website update update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear listfolk again RE: ANNOUNCING an update to the TEXTBASE webpage featuring experimental writing & visual art projects from MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA. Sorry, I just realised I didn't indicate which parts are new - it's probably not obvious. The new parts are three new projects under the Projects section - the Stickers project & City Lights. The third is Concrete Poetry, a new exhibition at 1st Floor (under Projects, 1st Floor). Dan Huppatz Melbourne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:10:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: *numbers Well, Chris, I think Dylan sings both "onto Desolation Row" & "from Desolation Row" in different verses. But what's your point? - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 08:11:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Something to do when depressed (in whose hands?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" keats first issue sold twenty seven copies. imagine how many you're selling in 2150. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:03:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: CAll FOR SUBMISSIONS to Translation Conference From: MX%"efoster@stevens-tech.edu" 14-SEP-1998 10:34:41.96 To: MX%"kimmelman@admin.njit.edu" CC: Subj: Re: POETRY IN TRANSLATION! Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:34:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Foster To: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: POETRY IN TRANSLATION! In-Reply-To: <009CC34A.A9E9984C.266@admin.njit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Literary Translation: Priorities, Theory, Practice -- a conference to be held November 13, 14, and 15 at the Stevens Institute of Technology. Speakers include Allen Mandelbaum, Serge Gavronsky, Armand Schwerner, Katherine Washburn, David Curzon, John High, and many others. The conference will include some of the most distinguished poets and translators of poetry working today. Poets are invited to read their translations of other poets' works or translations of their own works. Please contact either Deborah Sinnreich-Levi at dsinnrei@stevens-tech.edu and/or Ed Foster, Humanities Dept., Stevens Institute of Technology, Hoboken, NJ 07030. We are also interested in papers on any aspect of literary translations. Sessions will be held through-out the conference on a great variety of subjects. There will also be workshops in Russian, French, Chinese (classical and modern), Japanese, Turkish, Hebrew, Urdu, Afrikaans, and many others. The conference fee is $35 ($10 for graduate students) but can be waived in cases of hardship. American poets are criticized for being isolated, for talking only to each other, and for writing in a world that has little to do with what is happening elsewhere. We will have poets and scholars attending from a great many parts of the poetry universe. Come and read your works and help us prove that the criticism is wrong. And find out, too, what is happening in China . . . in Germany . . . in Russia . . . . . . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:04:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: TALISMAN, new issu From: MX%"efoster@stevens-tech.edu" 14-SEP-1998 10:42:45.07 To: MX%"kimmelman@admin.njit.edu" CC: Subj: Re: New Issues of Talisman Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:42:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward Foster To: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: New Issues of Talisman In-Reply-To: <009CC34A.A9E9984C.266@admin.njit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The fall, 1998, Talisman is here: the Lewis Warsh issue together with a special section on Irish poets and a major essay on Sobin and Heidegger, plus new work, reviews, "books received." The winter, 1998/99, issue will be ready in October: the Armand Schwerner issue together with a special section on younger poets and a selection of new works by Sartarelli with an introduction by Donahue, plus essays, reviews, new work including a major new sequence by Enslin. Talisman subscriptions are $14 for two issues ($9 each at your newsstand or bookstore): Talisman, P.O. Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Left Hand Poetry Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The 1998/99 season for the Left Hand Reading Series gets underway this Thursday, September 17 at 8:30pm with poets Jack Collom and Reed Bye reading from their own work and performing together. Jack Collom is Associate Professor in the Dept. of Writing & Poetics at the Naropa Institute and is the author of 15 books of poetry. His latest collection, _Dog Sonnets_, is die out this fall from Talisman Publishers. Reed Bye is Director of Writing & Poetics at Naropa. His books include _Passing Freaks & Graces_, Heart's Bestiary_and _Border Theme_. Left Hand Books is located above the Crystal Market (formerly Wild Oats) at 1825 Pearl. For further information respond to this e-mail or call Patrick Pritchett at 444-0695 ext. 230, or Mark DuCharme at 938-9346. Other readings of note this week in the Boulder/Denver area: * Ed Dorn at Tattered Cover in LoDo, Monday 9/14 - 7:30pm * Michael Friedman at Penny Lane, Monday, 9/14 - 9:30pm * Robert Creeley at Naropa Performing Arts Center, Sat 9/19 - 8pm * Pamela White Hadas at CU, Old Main, Tuesday 9/22 - 7:30pm Thanks, Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: *numbers Comments: To: henry gould In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That the "Speaker" of the song is speaking from within desolation row rather than from outside of it.... i think if you listen to--or look at--the lyrics that's consistent throughout-- he may have to "lean [his] head out far enough" from it in order to be able to write the song, but that doesn't mean he's not speaking "from" it....... On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, henry gould wrote: > Well, Chris, I think Dylan sings both "onto Desolation Row" & "from > Desolation Row" in different verses. But what's your point? > - Henry > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I looked up Gerald Burns's _Letters to Obscure Men_, a book from 1975 not only long out of print, but many copies of which were burned in a huge house fire (back, I think, when publisher Jim Haining lived in Illinois). Sales of this nearly impossible-to-find-item (of which I have a copy, btw, & will photocopy for anyone who wants to read it, gratis; just e-along your address) are flying out of Amazon's virtual warehouse swifter than 2,025,559 of their other titles (it's listed today as 974,441th most popular). Oh, I'm sure Amazon's numbers have real-world correlation of some form or another. I'm just not convinced it's "sales." Maybe it's to "potential chimps-having-the-special-desire-to-flip-page-given-any-one-page-to-start"? It seems like maybe if you handed Gerald's book to 3 million chimps, approximately 974,441 might bother to flip a page, even back & forth several times. Sociologist of the Imagination? Well, what does it pay? Ron, can I put you down as a reference? What else? Oh, yeah, before I forget: Billy "double diminutive living on song street in nowhere" Little, five bucks says you're a pseudonym. (Forgive me if you're not. I actually thought Bill Luoma's _My Trip_ was Ron Padgett, doing another "Leon"-like project, & even wrote to Geoffrey Young saying, "Thanks, this _is_ Padgett, right?" He assured me it wasn't. I didn't believe him. I do now, I guess.) Oh, and: My book, _Dead Man_ (also Meow Press!), while listed, didn't even have a number _assigned_ to it. That means like all 3 million more-customer-friendly Amazon books beat the holy living crap out of my teeny tiny nothing little shit-ass chapbook flop every sad motherfucking day of the year. Waaaah! Gary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:24:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: *numbers In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:15:38 -0400 from On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:15:38 -0400 louis stroffolino said: > That the "Speaker" of the song is speaking from within desolation > row rather than from outside of it.... > i think if you listen to--or look at--the lyrics > that's consistent throughout-- > he may have to "lean [his] head out far enough" from it > in order to be able to write the song, but > that doesn't mean he's not speaking "from" it....... > I don't get it. What are you correcting? I listened to it last night - they were playing a great live rendition from a concert he gave in Manchester in 1966. Obviously the "speaker" is singing from/in/on/under Desolation Row. But what does this have to do with the statement Ron made and the dismal counter-statement I made? Other than trying to suggest I haven't heard the lines correctly (which I had) & therefore could be dismissed? I'm not being cantankerous, Chris - just tangled up. - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:24:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: binderies? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A question to any of you poetics folks who are publishing books. Chax books are either bound here by myself with helpers, or, if they are trade paperback books with perfect or smyth sewn bindings, the binding is taken care of along with the printing. But I'm looking for any recommendations of binders who will take already-printed pages and turn them into perfect-bound books which look decent, for a reasonable price. If anyone has experience with this, and a binder to recomend, please e-mail me directly at chax@theriver.com thank you so much, charles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:46:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: Re: binderies? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" actually, any responses could go frontchannel, if you'd be so kind... lbd >A question to any of you poetics folks who are publishing books. Chax books >are either bound here by myself with helpers, or, if they are trade >paperback books with perfect or smyth sewn bindings, the binding is taken >care of along with the printing. > >But I'm looking for any recommendations of binders who will take >already-printed pages and turn them into perfect-bound books which look >decent, for a reasonable price. > >If anyone has experience with this, and a binder to recomend, please e-mail >me directly at >chax@theriver.com > > >thank you so much, > > >charles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:52:39 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Looking for a Teachable Text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All Of You School Teachers Out There: This semester I'm teaching an intro to lit course that includes a theory/criticism component. The previously-assigned text for this course has a chapter on Structuralism & Poststructuralism, the subheadings of which include "Russian Formalism," "Semiotics or Semiology," "French Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism." All in fifteen easy pages. Needless to say, this chapter is "introductory" to the point of being useless, so I'd appreciate hearing from anyone (by backchannel) who can recommend a better survey of the terrain--perhaps an essay or chapter, rather than an entire monograph. Preferably something that would be comprehensible to a freshman college student. Thanks in advance. A fellow school teacher, Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: poetry bestsellers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Amazon also has best sellers by sub-category. In poetry, single authors, American, the list is dominated by Shel Silverstein and Kahil Gibran, with someone named "Jewel" in the number 1 spot. 9, 10, and 11 are Steven, Ginsberg, and Chas. Wright, with Donald Hall at # 12. Who is Billy Collins? He has a couple of books in the top ten? In Spanish poetry (in translation of course) Pablo Neruda is the author of 24 of the top fifty, including 8 of the top 10. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) PART 1: SAWSJ Information List (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:50:17 -0400 (EDT) From: J Saws To: SAWSJ Information List <> Subject: PART 1: SAWSJ Information List (fwd) ________________________________________________________________________ Scholars, Artists, and Writers for Social Justice SAWSJ Information List September 14, 1998 Office: sawsj@lrrc.umass.edu List: sawsj@sage.edu Web site: www.sage.edu/html/SAWSJ ________________________________________________________________________ Folks: There was a late summer pause in our e-mailings, so this one will be a bit longer than usual -- in fact I have divided it into two sections to make it easier for the server to send. From now on we are aiming at once-a-week e-mailings. If you have something you would like to put up on the list, send it to this list's e-mail address. Right now, we have to be selective in what we post, mainly because of limited resources. In the near future we hope to set this list up on listserv software, with a moderator, which will make everything much easier and more efficient for all of us. Summer is waning and fall is approaching. We want to urge everyone on this list, especially those on college campuses, to do what they can to initiate or support anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic working-class-oriented activity -- either as a part of SAWSJ or in other ways. Hopefully, this e-mailing will help in that effort. Please keep in touch. Finally, we welcome to all new subscribers. Andor Skotnes ============================================================== CONTENTS: Part One (this mailing) 1. SAWSJ is cited in a protest by Hoffa, Jr. forces against the Leedham campaign for the Teamster presidency 2. ACTION: Beverly Enterprises continues suit against SEIU's Rosemary Trump 3. SAWSJ Bay Area Organizing Meeting, 9/15 4. ACTION: Support Syracuse University Strikers 5. ACTION: Support Jazz Faculty Organizing at the New School Part Two (next mailing) 6. CONFERENCE: 3rd National Conference on Whiteness 7. CONFERENCE: The Last Front: Corporatization & the End of Public Education 8. EMPLOYMENT: AFTRA, SAG, and UCLA Labor Education Seek Researchers 9. EMPLOYMENT: Hotel Workers Union Seeks Researchers for Exciting Campaigns throughout North America 10. EMPLOYMENT: SEIU Seeks Organizers =============================================================== =============================================================== 1. SAWSJ IS CITED IN A PROTEST BY HOFFA, JR., FORCES AGAINST THE LEEDHAM CAMPAIGN FOR THE TEAMSTER PRESIDENCY Last month, an e-mailing on this list included a invitation to support the Tom Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund and the TDU's Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation. The Hoffa Unity Slate believes that, by sending this message, we violated the rules governing the Teamster election and has cited us to that effect. Evidently this Hoffa Unity protest is just one of a great many that it have been filed. The SAWSJ Coordinating Committee is currently working on a response to this protest. For your information, the text of the protest letter appears below. As you will see, the protest against SAWSJ is made on the rather surprising grounds that SAWSJ is an employer. Baptiste & Wilder, P.C. Attorneys at Law 1150 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. Suite 500 Washington, D.C. 20036 August 12, 1998 BY FACSIMILE (202-624-3525) Michael G. Cherkasky, Esq. Election Officer Office of the Election Officer 444 North Capitol Street, NW, Ste 445 Washington, DC 20001 Re: Enclosed Protest Dear Mr. Cherkaksy: James P. Hoffa and the Hoffa Unity Slate file this protest against Tom Leedham, the Tom Leedham Slate, "Scholars, Artists and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ)," TDU and the Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation on the ground that the enclosed newsgroup posting by SAWSJ (Exhibit A) constitutues an improper solicitation for funds for the Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund and for the Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Fund. Exhibit A is a printed copy of an electronic posting made by SAWSJ to an electronic newsgroup with the address of The posting lists "sawsj @Sage.EDU" as the individual making the posting (in the second line following "From:"). This is the address of SAWSJ. Item 4 of the posting is a solicitation for contributions to the Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund and to the TDU's so-called "Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation." By posting this item to the newsgroup, SAWSJ was soliciting, or at least facilitating and assisting the solicitation of , funds for the Leedham Legal and Accounting fund and the Teamster Rank and File Legal Defense Foundation. The solicitation states that the purpose of soliciting funds for the Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation is to obtain funds to support the Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund. See Exhibit A-3: "[NOTE; The TDU's Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Fund is also accepting donations for similar purposes.]." Exhibits B and C show that SAWSJ is an employer. Exhibit B is a printed copy of the SAWSJ home page which appears at [sic]. Exhibit C is a printed copy of the site's "SAWSJ Organization & Leadership" sub-page. The statements on the sub-page establish that SAWSJ is an arm of the Labor Relations and Research Center at the University of Massachusetts (an employer), that SAWSJ is funded by several Universities (employers) who subsidize the activities [sic] the individuals who constitute the SAWSJ's "Coordinating Committee" and members, and that the SAWSJ employs a "staffperson" and therefore is itself and employer. The solicitation by SAWSJ is therefore a solicitation by an employer and is contrary to the Rules which provide that funds for a candidate's Legal and Accounting Fund can be solicited only by the candidate, members and a member's immediate family and that all expenses associated with any such solicitation must be paid for with unrestricted campaign funds. The Election Officer should order the Leedham campaign to cease and desist from these improper solicitations, should require SAWSJ to post an appropriate notice, and should require the Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund and the Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation to return all contributions that result from this improper solicitation. Very truly yours [signed] Patrick J. Szymanski =============================================================== =============================================================== 2. BEVERLY ENTERPRISES CONTINUES ITS SUIT AGAINST SEIU LOCAL 585 AND ROSEMARY TRUMP Under pressure, Beverly Enterprises dropped its absurd defamation suit against Kate Bronfenbrenner, professor of Labor Relations at Cornell University and SAWSJ activist. This suit was Beverly's response to Bronfenbrenner's from testimony at a Congressional hearing about Beverly's anti-labor practices. However, as Kate wrote last month, Beverly has continued its suit against SEIU's Rosemary Trump and SEIU local 585 for the same alleged offense. WE NEED TO HELP TO PUT PRESSURE ON BEVERLY TO END THIS FOOLISHNESS. You are urged to write or e-mail Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich (georgia6@hr.house.gov), urging that the general counsel of the House file an amicus brief in the 3d Circuit Court of Appeals in this case. The amicus brief will focus on the issue of testimonial immunity for expert witnesses who are asked to testify at Congressional forums and hearings. If you want more background information about the Beverly suit, please consult the SAWSJ web site at www.sage.edu/html/SAWSJ. =============================================================== =============================================================== 3. SAWSJ BAY AREA ORGANIZING MEETING, 9/15 ANNOUNCEMENT: Dear friend, We are writing you today, because we understand that you are one of the Bay Area individuals interested in working with the group called Scholars, Artists & Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ). WE ARE CONVENING A MEETING TO FORM A BAY AREA CHAPTER OF SAWSJ ON TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15th, 7:00 pm, AT THE HOME OF JACK KURZWEIL, 1737 Allston Way, Berkeley, CA 94703 As you may already know, SAWSJ was recently formed through the work of people involved in a series of Campus-Labor Teach-Ins held across the country in 1996 and 1997. The SAWSJ founding statement, originally published in the Nation during 1997 (and available at the SAWSJ web site: www.sage.edu/html/SAWSJ), describes the organization's mission: 1. To restore the mutually empowering relationship that once existed between the labor movement and the academic and cultural communities 2. To foster the growth of a vibrant, militant, multicultural working-class movement 3. To assist the organizing drives of the new labor movement In April of this year SAWSJ held its founding convention in Washington, D.C., at which it adopted a constitution, elected a national leadership, and issued a call for members to form local chapters and start organizing. We agree with the mission of SAWSJ and have decided to form a local SAWSJ chapter in the Bay Area. We are therefore inviting you to this first organizing meeting. Your participation in this important project is crucial! Please RSVP to Ken via email (kkloc@igc.org) or phone (510-594-8649). In Solidarity, Ken Kloc, Jack Kurzweil, Ellen Starbird, & Ted Stolze =============================================================== =============================================================== 4. SUPPORT SYACUSE UNIVERSITY STRIKERS To SAWSJ: I would like to appeal to your organization for help in putting national pressure on Syracuse University for the punitive position it has taken against faculty and students supporting striking workers on our campus. The strike of 750 SEIU Local 200A members, who work in our libraries, as food service workers, in physical plant, and as custodians, is over subcontracting issues as well as wages and benefits. Syracuse University has already replaced 100 union workers over the last 8 years with temporary workers receiving near minimum wage with no benefits. The union wants protection in the contract against further degradation of the workforce. The university has refused, and has now hired Pinkertons, threatened faculty and staff who strike in sympathy with being fired, and told students they cannot leaflet as individuals on the campus in favor of the union! I have received your emails over the years, and Kate Bronfenbrenner, whose case involving Beverly Enterprises was aided by your efforts, has suggested that this list would be a good venue for a national petition campaign against our university union-busting efforts. Apparently, Syracuse University and Beverly Enterprises are cut from the same corporate cloth which is working to stifle academic discussion over corporate privilege, no matter what the social cost. Here are some other efforts the university has taken against supporters of the strike: 1. Non-union staff have been told they will lose their jobs if they refuse to cross the picket line; their wages withheld and medical benefits will be denied immediately, and if their family members are using tuition benefits to take classes at SU they will be yanked out of classes. 2. Faculty members have been told we will also have wages and benefits withheld, and may be replaced as well. We have been receiving daily messages of intimidation from the administration. Faculty who have organized a teach-in on the campus about the strike for the students have been told "that won't be allowed." 3. Chairs of departments have been told they will no longer be chairs if they are not in their offices on the day the strike begins (which will be tomorrow, Aug. 31). They are also told they must deliver to the deans the names of all staff and faculty who are not at work so that their wages and benefits can be withheld and they can be replaced. 4. Students have been told, unbelievably, the following, which is quoted directly from the administration: "Students who are supportive of the Union issue are NOT allowed AS INDIVIDUALS to disseminate information on University property -- as they are acting in stead for Union members. "Students wishing to support Union issues may act through RECOGNIZED STUDENT ORGANIZATIONS if their organization, AS A WHOLE, supports the Union issues. In this case, the organization must follow standard university protocol in REQUESTING AND RESERVING space and/or equipment (such as tables and chairs) through Event Scheduling. "Graduates who hold scholarships, fellowships, graduate assistantships, research assistantships and teaching assistantships do so as UNIVERSITY beneficiaries." The campus has now become like an armed camp, with extra security guards and police roaming in groups, posted at every entrance and every parking gate. The city bus system has been rerouted to deliver busloads of scabs. Meanwhile, the university administration continues to publicly proclaim this to be the leading "student centered research university" in the country. We say: it is the leading "student CENSORED research university in the country! You can view more information about the strike on our web page (which is still under construction) at: http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/faculty/merupert/SUlabor.htm Please help us. Please contact me as soon as possible about a petition drive using your list. We would like the petition to read something like the following: We call on Chancellor Kenneth Shaw of Syracuse University to cease and desist all punitive and intimidating measures against Syracuse University faculty and staff who support the union employees strike and wish to disseminate information to the campus of the union's position. We also call on him to stop trying to run the university on the backs of its lowest paid, least powerful employees, and of trying to pit their needs against the students' needs. Thank you so much for your help. Linda Martin Alcoff Department of Philosophy 541 Hall of Languages Syracuse University Syracuse NY 13244-1170 315-443-2519 =============================================================== =============================================================== 5. SUPPORT JAZZ FACULTY ORGANIZING AT THE NEW SCHOOL Dear Labor Supporter, and Music Lover I am writing to you on behalf of the 70 part time Jazz faculty at the New School, who have been trying for eight long months to negotiate a first contract with management. During our struggle to win the right to vote on union representation in December, 1997, many of you played a pivotal role in convincing the New School to live up to their progressive ideals and allow musicians to decide for themselves whether or not they wanted a union. As a result of hundreds of letters, emails, faxes, and phone calls, the New School allowed a vote, which overwhelmingly showed that the jazz faculty wanted a union. Since that time, Local 802 has been negotiating with management for a first contract. From the beginning, our elected bargaining committee has made it clear to management that four items must be included in any contract: a fair wage, pension contributions, job security, and health benefits. Although our current positions on wages and health benefits are not that far apart, to date the New School has refused even to give us a counterproposal on pension contributions, and our demands for job security have fallen on deaf ears. We believe that the New School -- once again -- needs a moral push. We are asking our allies in the labor, religious, neighborhood and political communities to lend your moral support to our struggle for a just contract with the New School. Please take the time email New School President Fanton to urge him to do what is right, and settle with the Jazz faculty who have made the Jazz program the best in the world. Dr. Fanton's email address is: fanton@newschool.edu We are asking for what is reasonable, and what the other unionized workers at the university already enjoy: a decent pension, and job security. Please forward all correspondence with Dr. Fanton to Local 802's Organizing Department. Email copies of your emails to us at: Tdubnau@local802afm.org. If you have any questions, please call Local 802 Organizer Tim Dubnau at (212) 245-4802, Ext. 185. Thank you very much for your help. In Solidarity, William Moriarity PRESIDENT, Local 802 AFM =============================================================== =============================================================== ...more in part two of this mailing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) PART 2: SAWSJ Information List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:53:26 -0400 (EDT) From: J Saws To: SAWSJ Information List <> Subject: PART 2: SAWSJ Information List The SAWSJ Information List Continues... =============================================================== =============================================================== 6. CONFERENCE: 3RD NATIONAL CONFERENCE ON WHITENESS CALL FOR PRESENTERS November 6-8, 1998 University of Chicago Beyond "White," "Black" or "Other": Confronting Whiteness to End Racism W E ' R E I N V I T I N G . . . Organizations and individuals who are... Activists, Educators, Scholars, Organizers, Community members and leaders, Spiritual members and leaders, Artists, Trainers, Consultants, and all generally interested in supporting the theme, the mission, and goals of the conference. T O P R E S E N T . . . Workshops, panel discussions, papers, symposiums, artistic performances, roundtable discussions, and other events of potential interest to participants. F O C U S I N G O N . . . OUR THEME: (Beyond "White," "Black," or "Other") We use the term "Other" to denote the centrality and focus on racism in the U.S.A. as a "black/white" issue. The title also reflects the common usage of these terms. Our goal here is to challenge all these divisions -- to get "Beyond" them -- not to endorse them. We understand Native Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, to name a few groups, are often left out of the analysis and discussion. Our hope is to create space where dialogue occurs and awareness increases on these issues. We're specifically interested in examining how whiteness has created, contributed to and maintained the racial categorization of "white," "black" or "other" and what new ideas, strategies, tactics and definitions can be used to move beyond this idea which has been so politically, spiritually, morally, economically and socially divisive. OUR MISSION: To hear diverse voices and ideas on how to confront whiteness to end racism. OUR GOALS: * Expand the analysis of racism and "white" supremacy beyond "black" and "white" * Build alliances among anti-racists to confront the legacy of "white" supremacy * Explore how ideas of "whiteness" relate to "race," class, gender, sexuality, age, ethnicity and other diverse ideas of human differences * Spark antiracist action locally and nationally * Explore strategies and tactics to make the discussion of "whiteness" and antiracism a mainstream issue * Bridge the experiences of academics and activists * Develop more accessible and effective language to discuss concepts of "race" and racism * Encourage "white" people to examine their role in the perpetuation of Racism both personally and as members of the "white" race * Make sure people of all "racial" and cultural groups are involved in leadership roles in the study of "whiteness" *Explore how "whiteness" has denied the "multiracial" heritage and history of the U.S.A. and its people * Explore the history of the idea of "whiteness" and its relationship to racial oppression, the idea of "non-white" inferiority and the idea of "white" supremacy H O W T O S U B M I T A P R O P O S A L *Send us a 1-page description of your presentation, workshop, event etc. *Include your name and contact information. *Indicate the length of your event. We are blocking program time for events either 1 hour in length (60 minutes) or 2 and 1/2 hours in length (150 minutes). If you are proposing an event of some other length, please specify this. Depending on the proposal we may or may not be able to find a space on the program. *Indicate space or equipment requirements if you need more than a simple classroom and blackboard setting. Simple is better, but we will try to accommodate special needs. *When possible, (to help us) please submit proposals by email. This helps us keep our cost low and to circulate submissions for review. Email submissions should be sent to contact@euroamerican.org If you do not have email, we will accept proposals by U.S. mail at Center for Study, 245 West 4th Avenue, Roselle, NJ 07203 We will begin selecting proposals October 1, 1998. Submissions will be reviewed until all remaining positions on the schedule are full. For information on the submission process, please contact Jeff Hitchcock, Executive Director, Center for the Study of White American Culture by phone at (908) 241-5439 or by email at jeffhitchcock@euroamerican.org T O P R E S E N T E R S . . . The National Conference on Whiteness, an annual event, drew over 300 people in Cambridge, Mass. last November. From our start, we have envisioned the conference as a 20-year series that not only looks at whiteness, but also mobilizes the attention and resources needed to act on it on a national scale. This year, our third, we're planning for 500 participants. As with last year's event, funding is limited. The conference is administered by a collection of small nonprofit organizations, i.e. we have no large institutional sponsor. Over 95% of our funds came from registration fees. We can not reimburse expenses to presenters. But if you do present, we recommend you take advantage of our sliding registration fee scale (from $150 down to $15) commensurate with your contribution, and balanced against the difficulty or success you have in obtaining other funding. We look forward to continuing our relationship with those who have worked with us previously, and we encourage those just hearing about us to join the process. For more information on the conference, check the conference web site being hosted at www.euroamerican.org. =============================================================== =============================================================== 7. CONFERENCE : THE LAST FRONT: CORPORATIZATION & THE END OF PUBLIC EDUCATION Dear Friends: On October 10-11, 1998, public education activists will convene at San Francisco State University to learn more about, and organize against, the privatization of public education. "The Last Front: Corporatization & The End of Public Education" will be hosted in part by the Anti-CETI Coalition, which recently defeated an attempt to privatize the California State University technology system. As private investment takes on larger roles in public education, very real threats to democratic self-determination and civil rights are posed to both students and teachers. From Channel One to Edison Charter Schools to AT&T Phone/I.D. cards, privatization threatens teacher unions, student/faculty intellectual property rights, and public accessibility to education. The influx of corporate moneys within the seemingly autonomous face of public education calls for a reassessment of both what it means to be a corporation, and what it means to provide a public education. We hope you will join us in San Francisco on the weekend of October 10-11. We need your participation so that we can make these necessary reassessments -- and so that we can organize a more effective movement in defense of public education. We also need your financial support. By sending a donation today, you will assist in the funding of publicity and outreach, a Conference Truth-Kit, and, most important, subsidized traveling expenses for speakers and student participants. Donations can be sent to: The Last Front 2700 - 23rd. St. San Francisco, CA 94110 (Please make checks payable to The Last Front). In fighting against the privatization of education, we are fighting for public education, an essential element of a living democracy. We are counting on your support for this event. Together we will defend public education from corporate takeover. Thank you in advance for your support, John Murphy, on behalf of the Last Front Organizing Committee For more information about the conference, or to make reservations, contact us at: (415) 826-2850 2700 - 23rd. Street, San Francisco, CA 94110 jdm6@sfsu.edu Check The Last Front out on the web at userwww.sfsu.edu/~wolfsonj/welcome.htm =============================================================== =============================================================== 8. AFTRA, SAG, AND UCLA LABOR EDUCATION SEEK RESEARCHERS From: Paul Worthman The American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA) and the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) are engaged in a joint research project with the collaboration of the UCLA Center for Labor Education and Research. We are currently seeking student researchers in about six cities who can do data entry for a period of about 2-3 weeks, and then participate in interviewing performers, producers, agents, and corporate and non-profit clients who contract for audio or video work for training, education or instruction, sales, phonecasting and other such work. We are currently seeking researchers, and hopefully a faculty sponsor for the student(s), in the following cities: Denver, San Francisco, Chicago, and Philadelphia. I have attached a brief summary of the project we are engaged in. I would appreciate your circulating this message to SAWSJ members. If you know of a student who might be interested in this position, or can refer the inquiry to appropriate faculty or career centers in the targeted cities we would be appreciative. I would be happy to discuss the project more with interested SAWSJ members who might be able to assist us and who wants to contact me. Paul B. Worthman Director of Organizing & Research AFTRA 5757 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 900 Los Angeles, CA 90036 213-634-8111; (Fax) 213-634-8194 email: pworthma@aftra.com ATTACHMENT: The UCLA Center for Labor Education and Research and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA), and the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) are jointly undertaking a national research project. We are exploring recorded audio and visual work done in about 20 cities across the country which we loosely characterizze as "industrial, non-broadcast" (excluding radio and television commercials). In essence, this work consists of such things as sales videos, convention or trade show material, training, educational or instructional material, in-flight or cruise line entertainment, or similar activities. This area of work constitutes a small, but not insignificant part of actual and potential earnings for performers. Indeed, we have some evidence that total earnings throughout the country easily exceed $100 million. Some of it is done by or commissioned by large private sector, governmental or non-profit agencies, while other work is done by small firms or individuals. While a good deal of it is currently done under agreements with AFTRA or SAG, most of the work is not done this way. Our immediate research objective is to learn as much as we can about the totality of the work and answer such questions as: exactly what work is being done, and where is being done? who is commissioning the work? who is producing the work? who is casting the work? who is doing the work? what kinds of budgets are established for different kinds of projects? We are seeking an "academic sponsor" in each of about 20 cities who would endorse an undergraduate or graduate student who would undertake such an investigation for us and with us. We would be asking the students to spend some time in the AFTRA and SAG offices extracting data we already have on record and putting it into a data base. Then, we would want the student(s) to conduct interviews (which we have developed) with clients, producers, directors, agents, and talent to broaden our information base and gain more information about those areas and projects for which we do not have data. We can pay students around $9.15 per hour for this work (and perhaps it is negotiable). While I have been in contact with some academics in several cities, I appreciate your willingness to forward this to people you know. Please have them direct questions, comments or their willingness to help to me - or Mathis Dunn, AFTRA's Assistant National Director- at 213-634-8113; or email me at pworthma@aftra.com . Paul B. Worthman Director of Research AFTRA 5757 Wilshire Boulevard Los Angeles, CA 90036 Ph: 213-634-8111; Fax: 213-634-8194 email: pworthma@aftra.com =============================================================== =============================================================== 9. HOTEL WORKERS UNION SEEKS RESEARCHERS FOR EXCITING CAMPAIGNS THROUGHOUT NORTH AMERICA The Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees International Union (HERE) is recruiting full-time research staff for its fast-growing Research Department. Positions are currently available in a number of regions across the U.S. and Canada, with new positions opening frequently (see listing below). The department is responsible for conducting in-depth research and for assisting in the development and implementation of strategic campaigns in support of organizing and bargaining struggles in the hotel, food service and gaming industries (casinos, riverboats and Native American gaming). Depending upon location and specific staffing needs, positions may be at the International Union or the Local Union level, and positions may be for senior or junior researcher analysts. Some positions may require substantial travel. Additional qualifications may apply to some locations. The qualifications for all analyst positions include: - Strong demonstrated commitment to labor/social justice organizing; - Investigative research experience, including industry, corporate and/or issue research; - Familiarity with basic financial concepts and/or analysis; - Demonstrated ability to research, strategize and implement plans around specific issues/campaign; - Significant work or volunteer experience with progressive/activist organizations; - Excellent writing skills/communications skills (oral, written and one-on-one); - Ability to handle multiple projects and tight deadlines; - Ease with working in a team environment; - College degree in liberal arts, social science, economics, planning or business. Research analyst openings are currently available (as of 8/98) in: Atlantic City NJ California (LA or SF base to be determined) Connecticut/Rhode Island District of Columbia Las Vegas San Antonio/Austin San Francisco Bay Area Toronto Certain locations will be filled on a priority basis. Also Administrative Assistant - San Francisco only. Qualifications include excellent office skills (including word processing, computer skills, database management); ability to organize and prioritize tasks; desire to work in a campaign atmosphere Salary is negotiable on the basis of experience; excellent benefits. Please send resume and cover letter specifying your geographic flexibility/interest to: Recruitment, HERE Research Department, 1219 28th St. NW, Washington, DC 20007-3389; Fax: 202-333-6049. No phone calls please. (Posted 8/98) =============================================================== =============================================================== 10. SEIU SEEKS ORGANIZERS The Service Employees International Union (SEIU) is seeking organizers in the Eastern Region. SEIU is the fastest growing union in the country, representing over 1.2 million members. SEIU organizers fight for justice alongside health care workers, janitors, clericals, and public employees. Using aggressive and innovative tactics, together we challenge some of the largest and most powerful corporations in the world. And we win! Organizers must be able to: Identify and research potential units to organize. Educate, agitate, and train workers about how to organize a union. Recruit and develop worksite leaders into a strong committee. Travel and work long, irregular hours. Organizers must have: Strong communication, organizational, and writing skills. Ability to solve problems creatively and think strategically. Good judgement. Commitment to social justice. Salary begins at $24,000/year, with excellent benefits. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Looking for a Teachable Text Comments: To: arshile@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Although it doesn't explicitly address Structuralism, Steven Lynn's _Texts & Contexts: Writing About Literature with Critical Theory_ [now in a second edition] offers a very readable introduction to New Criticism, Reader-Response, Deconstruction, Biographical/Historical, Psychological, and Feminist approaches. I've used in in half a dozen lit courses with considerable success. It even presents sample short essays in each chapter -- including rough drafts and revisions! -- showing how to apply the approach to a text. HarperCollins published it in 1994. ISBN 0-06-500099-4 [but get the new edition]. Best, Dan Zimmerman Middlesex County College Edison, NJ Mark Salerno wrote: > > To All Of You School Teachers Out There: > > This semester I'm teaching an intro to lit course that includes a > theory/criticism component. The previously-assigned text for this course > has a chapter on Structuralism & Poststructuralism, the subheadings of > which include "Russian Formalism," "Semiotics or Semiology," "French > Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism." All in fifteen easy pages. > Needless to say, this chapter is "introductory" to the point of being > useless, so I'd appreciate hearing from anyone (by backchannel) who can > recommend a better survey of the terrain--perhaps an essay or chapter, > rather than an entire monograph. Preferably something that would be > comprehensible to a freshman college student. > > Thanks in advance. > > A fellow school teacher, > > Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:31:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: more bestsellers Comments: cc: Judy Roitman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Top ten poetry sellers in the "Continental Europe" category: 1. The Odyssey (by Homer "et al") 2. The Iliad 3. The Odyssey 4. The Iliad 5. The Odyssey 6. Letters to a Young Poet 7. The Iliad 8. The Iliad (Stan Lombardo trans.) 9. The Iliad 10. The Divine Comedy Who said the classics were dead! Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:24:44 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Internet & Depression MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Healthy but depressed. WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. government agency said Friday it had set up an Internet site that will control people's cholesterol. The site allows people to enter their cholesterol levels and gives advice on how to lower them. It offers recipes, exercise plans, guidance for reading food labels and explanation about drugs. The site, available at www.nhlbi.nih.gov, can be found by clicking on "What's New" on the NHLBI page. More than 13 million Americans have coronary heart disease, and at least 80% of them would be helped by getting their cholesterol down, the government says, but only a third to a half get active treatment. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:36:45 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: (Fwd) PART 1: SAWSJ Information List (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KENT JOHNSON wrote: > ------- Forwarded > Subject: PART 1: > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Scholars, > Artists, > and for Social Justice > Does the foewardness of the post make the politics self-evident? Does the vicariousness of politics make for a certain reality that makes for movements of history? Does the earnestness of desiring symbolists imbue their politics/? Does the surplus of comfortable poetics poets make for antithesis for forwards? Does the the multiple critical apperception of structural inequality rendered as sublimated ideological mystification allow for self-evidence? Does the historical imprecation of always already make the hyper-ironic reactionaries know to dismiss the poetry of foewards? mc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:10:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: LA READINGS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just wanted to let LA area people that the LA BOOKS READING SERIES has resumed. Stephen Ratcliffe and Todd Baron will be reading this Sunday 4pm at Cafe Balconey which is located on the West Side at 12431 Rochester at the corner of Santa Monica and Centinela. Hope to see you there. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:57:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: binderies? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wasn't there some type of binding called Graymount (Graymont?) covers? Publishers used them to bind review copies, I think. I think libraries also used them so that paperbacks would have more durable covers. I just tried to find the source in my old Pushcart "Publish It Yourself Handbook," but I couldn't find it. Although I think it's in there somewhere. Of course, the copy I have was printed in 1980, so the company (also called Graymount) may no longer be in business. I'll keep looking. Steven On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, r.drake wrote: > actually, any responses could go frontchannel, if you'd be so kind... > > lbd > > > >A question to any of you poetics folks who are publishing books. Chax books > >are either bound here by myself with helpers, or, if they are trade > >paperback books with perfect or smyth sewn bindings, the binding is taken > >care of along with the printing. > > > >But I'm looking for any recommendations of binders who will take > >already-printed pages and turn them into perfect-bound books which look > >decent, for a reasonable price. > > > >If anyone has experience with this, and a binder to recomend, please e-mail > >me directly at > >chax@theriver.com > > > > > >thank you so much, > > > > > >charles > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:22:51 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Sociologist of the imagination Content-Type: text/plain "Sociologist of the Imagination? Well, what does it pay? Ron, can I put you down as a reference?" Gary, you can always put me down as a reference. Just don't put me down. Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:27:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Jewel Content-Type: text/plain Jewel is the Alaskan-raised, San Diegan folk/rock singer who has been omnipresent on VH1 for about a year now. You can get her book of poems on CD as well as hard copy at virtually record store. I really ought to look up Rod McKuen, Ron Silliman >Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:59:25 -0500 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: MAYHEW >Subject: poetry bestsellers >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Amazon also has best sellers by sub-category. In poetry, single authors, >American, the list is dominated by Shel Silverstein and Kahil Gibran, with >someone named "Jewel" in the number 1 spot. 9, 10, and 11 are Steven, >Ginsberg, and Chas. Wright, with Donald Hall at # 12. > >Who is Billy Collins? He has a couple of books in the top ten? > >In Spanish poetry (in translation of course) Pablo Neruda is the author >of 24 of the top fifty, including 8 of the top 10. > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:13:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Toscano Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone with contact info on Rodrigo Toscano, please let me know, backchannel of course. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:36:31 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: Toscano MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just ask! Rodrigo is at Rod4rigo@aol.com Todd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 23:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: JENNIFER IN THE ZONE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - JENNIFER IN THE ZONE ---- World jennifer ---- Welcome to Kyoto-MOO! Type 'connect ' to log in. A moment of stillness just before the invention of radio. you are entering a world of speaking bodies; everyone is close at hand. If you reach out, you touch us with your bright thinking. Welcome to Kyoto! *** Connected *** Yurt hovel where Wizards hang, bones in front, skins behind You see basin, human, lump, stuff, and stump here. precocious, squeezable squeeze human liquids flow from human "Now I am Jennifer Jennifer. You have no messages on your Answering Machine. You join Kayo (asleep). Roomful of Bits ................... .................... .......................... .................................................. ..................... Kayo (asleep) is here.look Kayo Kayo (asleep) You see a wizard who chooses not to reveal its true appearance. It is sleeping. You join Kalu (asleep). a small blue bottle you can see the bottle is cracked along the mouth Kalu (asleep) is here.look Kalu Kalu (asleep) a mesoelectronic hunter/gatherer E is sleeping. Carrying: a small cup of tea rock You say, "Hello Kalu" You say, "My name is Jennifer" You say, "I am very pretty Jennifer" You say, "Now I will Leave" You join zone. look Zone I don't understand that. "Hello Zone I don't understand that. "Can't I say anything, Zone I don't understand that. "I'm suffocating, Zone "Help me, Zone I don't understand that. @emote is miserable and silenced in the Zone. I don't understand that. @join Hokusai OK, you're there. You didn't need to actually move, though. "Hello Hokusai I don't understand that. @join Jennifer There is little need to join yourself, unless you are split up. "I am Jennifer Jennifer and I am not split up. I don't understand that. "I am Jennifer I don't understand that. @join Kayo You join Kayo (asleep). Roomful of Bits ................... .................... .......................... .................................................. ..................... Kayo (asleep) is here. You say, "Hello Kayo" You say, "Now I can speak" You say, "I couldn't speak in the Zone." You say, "I didn't exist in the Zone." You say, "I could hardly breathe in the Zone." You say, "My name is Jennifer" You say, "Now I will go home" You click your heels three times. Yurt hovel where Wizards hang, bones in front, skins behind You see basin, human, lump, stuff, and stump here. look human You say, "Now I am home" You say, "My name is Jennifer good bye" __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 20:58:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Runcible Mountain College Objectivists Seminar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FOUR DISTANCE-EDUCATION SPACES LEFT IN AN "OBJECTIVISTS" SEMINAR > SPONSORED BY RUNCIBLE MOUNTAIN COLLEGE > SEPTEMBER 17-DECEMBER 3, 1998 > > Runcible Mountain College, in Vancouver, has four empty spaces for > students interested in studying the "Objectivists" via distance education. > The course runs in conjunction with the College's biweekly seminar on the > same topic, and participants carry out assignments at their > leisure and maintain correspondence via electronic mail. > > For more information, contact Aaron Vidaver, Director of Extension > Programmes: avidaver@interchange.ubc.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:36:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: desolation row Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Indubitably, there is something beyond Desolation Row. As Rimbaud said, "Whats on the far side of despair?" A Scholar Who Systematically Dewrangled His Senses (And Those of Some Others) In Order to Get The Pure Gen on Dylan's Meaning, db3 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:58:43 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Natalia Pang Subject: Re: JENNIFER IN THE ZONE Content-Type: text/plain ZOE ---- Word nife ---- Wet! Type slo. A mot of illness just before the nad. you are entering a spode; everyone is close and If you rot, you tow your bit thing. Welcome! *** Conned *** Yr hoe here Wizard, ones in fro, skinnin humpstuff, and stumpocious, squids flow from how I nife. You have no Ma. You in Kot ................... .................... .......................... .................................................. ..................... ok Keep a wizard whore true. Its sling-jon eep). a small butt you can see is cracked out eep look Keep a melon hunter there sleeping. Call up frock You say, "Hell" You say, "Myna" You say, "I am" You say, "I" one loon under hat. "Hello hat. "Cone nad. "I'm Zoe, eat miserable silenced Zoe. I Hokus you Hokus I don nad hat. @ nife little ned jon. "I am nife nife and I am lit up Idle mots ................... .................... .......................... .................................................. ..................... Klee is here. Yay, "Hell" Yay, "I pak" Yay, "I pak Zoe." Yay, "I exit Zoe." Yay, "I hard-bathe Zoe." Yay, "My name is Jr" Yay, "Now i'll goo" You hurt where Wiz hangs in front, skis bend You hump stuff, and took ma's yam fer good ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:09:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: poetry bestsellers In-Reply-To: from "MAYHEW" at Sep 14, 98 03:59:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Billy Collins is a mainstream poet - actually one of the better ones falling under that ugly rubric. He's funny and conversational, the kind of poet you might like to have a drink with if you liked drinking with mainstream poets. -m. According to MAYHEW: > > Amazon also has best sellers by sub-category. In poetry, single authors, > American, the list is dominated by Shel Silverstein and Kahil Gibran, with > someone named "Jewel" in the number 1 spot. 9, 10, and 11 are Steven, > Ginsberg, and Chas. Wright, with Donald Hall at # 12. > > Who is Billy Collins? He has a couple of books in the top ten? > > In Spanish poetry (in translation of course) Pablo Neruda is the author > of 24 of the top fifty, including 8 of the top 10. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:25:06 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writers Forum announces the publication of two new pamphlets in the Domestic Ambient Noise series, due to finish 1st April 2000 with the publication of the three hundredth pamphlet THE WORLD UNFOLDS AND CLOSES BACK - Upton varies a text by Cobbing ISBN 0 86162 739 8 September 1998 ON SEEING THEMSELVES ON THEIR OWN TVs THEY WAVED TO THEMSELVES - Cobbing varies a text by Upton ISBN 0 86162 789 X September 1998 Each pamphlet is L1.00 plus postage in UK. Lower rates if multiple pamphlets purchased. All pamphlets are in print. New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 8QT L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Publication Announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi-Mark Prejsnar here.. (apologies to Kevin Killian..) My new chapbook is out today from a new small press in Atlanta, 3rdness. It is a single long poem, Burning Flags. Anyone who expects (either as subscriber or contributor) to receive John Lowther's magazine will receive a copy of my chapbook gratis with the second issue. That's gonna be mailed out in about four days. (This is The Magazine Formerly Known as Syntactics...From this point forward the title will consist of the same letters but in a different order for each issue: issue 2 is called Itsynccast) Only paid subscribers who have a sub for at least two issues will get the chap...Folks with exchange arrangements will have to order it separately. To get a copy of Burning Flags, send a check for $5.00 made out to John Lowther, to: 3rdness c/o J. Lowther 2996 Hermance Drive NE Atlanta, GA 30319 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:39:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: poetics seminar Comments: cc: sequoia@falcon.cc.ukans.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For all my fellow Lawrencians (and all others lurking in the bi-state area (Judy, MaryRose, Jim, George, Dale, Ken etc.)-- The first meeting of the poetics seminar will be tomorrow (Sept. 16) at 5 p.m. in the Hall Center. The presenter is Joe Harrington (dept. of English): "Poetry as Crossing: The Newspaper Poems of Anna Louis Strong (Anise), 1918-1920." On Oct 14 is George Hartley: "The Poetics of Hybridity" on Nov. 18: Ken Irby: "The Poetry and Poetics of Robert Duncan." The spring schedule is still wide open and I welcome your suggestions. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:40:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristen Gallagher Subject: lee ann brown? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Marks" at Sep 14, 98 08:57:55 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit help! her email address suddenly changed. anyone know her phone number or a new email? i have money to offer her! but must do it soon. (it evaporates in philadelphia.) help. thanks y'all. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:48:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: poetics seminar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thanks for the reminder and i will be there. will stop by hall this pm to get a copy of joes paper. adios. mccrary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 05:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: poetics seminar In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jonathan, For those of us not in the bi-state area, any chance of these being taped and transcribed and made available? charles At 10:39 AM 9/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >For all my fellow Lawrencians (and all others lurking in the bi-state area >(Judy, MaryRose, Jim, George, Dale, Ken etc.)-- The first meeting of the >poetics seminar will be tomorrow (Sept. 16) at 5 p.m. in the Hall Center. >The presenter is Joe Harrington (dept. of English): "Poetry as Crossing: >The Newspaper Poems of Anna Louis Strong (Anise), 1918-1920." > >On Oct 14 is George Hartley: "The Poetics of Hybridity" on Nov. 18: Ken >Irby: "The Poetry and Poetics of Robert Duncan." > >The spring schedule is still wide open and I welcome your suggestions. > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:03:31 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: lee ann brown? Comments: cc: kristing@POBOX.UPENN.EDU Content-Type: text/plain Kristen, Leeann's new email is: leeann@ferro-luzzi.org Ron >Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:40:03 -0400 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Kristen Gallagher >Subject: lee ann brown? >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >help! her email address suddenly changed. anyone know her phone number >or a new email? i have money to offer her! but must do it soon. >(it evaporates in philadelphia.) help. > >thanks y'all. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:46:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: lee ann brown? In-Reply-To: <199809151540.LAA16750@pobox.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:40 AM -0400 9/15/98, Kristen Gallagher wrote: >help! her email address suddenly changed. anyone know her phone number >or a new email? i have money to offer her! but must do it soon. >(it evaporates in philadelphia.) help. > >thanks y'all. see below. offer her big $s! X-From_: leeann@ferro-luzzi.org Sun Sep 6 17:25 CDT 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:27:43 -0500 To: c.bergvall@dartington.co.uk, kmv20@hermes.cam.ac.uk, D.S.Marriott@qmw.ac.uk, wilko@netmatters.co.uk, rsillima@ix.netcom.com, taco@club-internet.fr, joris@csc.albany.edu, nicook@csc.albany.edu, nd@panix.com, Maria Damon , jross@tmn.com, bg1640@csc.albany.edu, antitype@earthlink.net, fat20@cus.cam.ac.uk, Eurydice@aol.com, EFodaski@saintanns.k12.ny.us, Daniel_Bouchard@hmco.com, perelman@dept.english.upenn.edu, penwaves@mindspring.com, lstroffo@HORNET.LIUNET.EDU, wheeler@is.nyu.edu From: leeann@ferro-luzzi.org (lee ann brown) Subject: Change of A DRESS Y'ALL Tender Buttons Messy girl Back On Line Please send me any bounced messages from you that I missed since late June or write me new ones Send poems, NEWS of you especially My Newsflash: Polyverse (Sun & Moon) debut rumored again circa November 1998 Please NOTE my NEW "E"adDRESS Love, Lee Ann Z Y X W V U T S R Q P O N M L K J I H G F E D C B A Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station New York, NY 10276 212.529.6154 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:55:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" suppose i were gerry gilbert canada's whitman or lisa robertson the dante of canada i finally read her Debbie An Epic-- Wow! robertson will remain in the canon long after eliot* is only a footnote. lush, wiley, reverberant throughout, authoritative, harsh, shimmering, icily hallucinatory, Virgil's frozen fingers on your neck. you'll be reading this three hundred years from now but you'd lose the feever, gary, just ask dave mcfadden or george stanley or gerry gilbert or lisa robertson for that matter. *possum, see Ezra Pound billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:55:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" beat the holy living crap out of my teeny tiny nothing little >shit-ass chapbook flop every sad motherfucking day of the year. > >Waaaah! > >Gary i am smaller than you and you've been smaller too smaller than a mountain smaller than a tree smaller than you smaller than me smaller than a puddle smaller than the sea smaller than a poodle smaller than a bumblebee no matter how you try you'll never be smaller than me smaller than a mosquito smaller than a flea smaller than an acorn smaller than a live oak tree smaller than a fish smaller than a pet smaller than a kiss smaller than a sweat smaller than a whim smaller than a fret smaller than you i'm the smallest one yet smaller than a drink smaller than a swim smaller than you think smaller than bright pink i'm as small as they come a good deal smaller than some smaller than a cell smaller than a peek smaller than a drip smaller than a leak smaller than an oyster in a seagull's beak smaller than a bubble in a spakling wine smaller than the stubble of a baldie valentine i'm so small smaller than a telephone call smaller than the pain in a hummingbird's brain splashed by a drop of rain smaller than a stain smaller than a suitcase on an electric train smaller than the short smaller than the long smaller than the poem smaller than the song smaller than a beatle smaller than a stone smaller than The Edge smaller than Stallone smaller than a penny smaller than a scent smaller than a peso smaller than the rent. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:42:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: nyc/zinc bar reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This Sunday, Sept. 20 the zinc bar (90 W. Houston, near LaGuardia) will feature the first & only stop of the Toura! Torra! Tour.... Joseph Toura (Queens) -- "a poet of poignant sensibility" - Dgls Rothschild & Joseph Torra (Boston) -- author of Gas Station - "my favorite book" - Bill Luoma, Ange Mlinko $3 donation suggested call 212-366-2091 for further information Future listings for zinc bar readings will be available in the future Thanks a. berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: lee ann brown? -Reply with lee ann brown being sought, let me say that her new book, polyverse, gets a very nice review in the sept 28 issue of publishers weekly "....Like many of the most vital cultural products of Brown*s x-resistant generation, this book*s polyversity combines optimism, a collage *pop* sensibility, shameless narcissism and a tremendous generosity rare in books of poetry today." >>> UB Poetics discussion group 09/15/98 11:40am >>> help! her email address suddenly changed. anyone know her phone number or a new email? i have money to offer her! but must do it soon. (it evaporates in philadelphia.) help. thanks y'all. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:12:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: CapCollegeReadings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Capilano College Readings Series Organized by Bob Sherrin and George Stanley John Barton wed Sept 16 4:30pm room LB321 Renee Rodin Thu Oct 15 4:30pm room AR312 Open to the Public ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: address request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" If anyone could backchannel me Tan Lin's current mailing address & e-mail address I'd gretaly appreciate it. Thanks. Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: The Next Word (SUNY-Purchase show announcement) Comments: cc: core-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_23147625==_.ALT" --=====================_23147625==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The NEXT WORD curated by Johanna Drucker NEUBERGER MUSEUM of ART, September 20, 1998 to January 31, 1999 The NEXT WORD is an interdisciplinary exhibition of work in visual art, artists' books, visual poetry, and graphic design by artists who are examining the ways texts and images produce meaning in contemporary society. The daily landscape of late 20th-century American culture is saturated with visual and verbal messages and many of the works in this exhibition reflect this daily experience with the look of language as an image. Artists have long been responsive to the visual properties of written language while poets and designers are intrigued by the inherent tension between reading a text for meaning and looking at its visible form. Whether committed to individual expression or serving commercial interests, artists in various fields make use of many of the same tools from conventional to digital media. Thus artworks, commercial productions, and advertising converse through a shared vocabulary of forms, while they remain distinct through their motivations and messages. -- Johanna Drucker, from the catalogue for The Next Word Participating artists include: Susan Barron, Susan Bee, Charles Bernstein, Jake Berry, Lisa Bloomfield, Bill Burke, Chris Burnett, Martha Carothers, David Carson, Class Action, Critical Art Ensemble, Michael Corris, Clay Debevoise, The Font Bureau, Brad Freeman, Gary Gissler, Joan Goswell, Edgar Heap of Birds, Julie Harrison, Joe Elliot, Scott Helmes, Jack Hirschman, Tatana Kellner, Susan King, Ruth Laxson, Stephanie Brody Lederman, Warren Lehrer, Zuzanna Licko, Glenn Ligon, Joan Lyons, Jackson Mac Low, Clifton Meador, Emily McVarish, Alistair Noble, James Petrillo, Archie Rand, ReVerb, Gary Richman, Paula Scher, Felicia Rice, Guillermo Gomez-Pe=F1a, Enrique Chagoya, Mira Schor, Blair Seagram, Clarissa Sligh, Austin Straus, Anne Tardos, Rudy VanderLans, Irving Weiss, Anna Wolf, Jody Zellen, Murray Zimiles, Philip Zimmermann, Janet Zweig, and others. Special 'Zine selection curated by Matt Ferranto. Special Events: September 26, 6:30 - 8:00: Opening Reception, Neuberger Museum October 8, 1998, 4:00 pm: All-Campus SUNY Purchase Conference: "New Media: Assessing the Impact on Teaching, Art, and Scholarship," with Purchase College Faculty members Johanna Drucker, Margot Lovejoy, Jim McElwaine, Peter Ohring, Nina Strauss, and Gary Waller. October 18, 1998: 12:45 to 1:30 pm: Gallery Talk and Tour with Johanna Drucker, curator of The Next Word. October 18, 1998, 2:00 pm: Outdoor Dance by internationally acclaimed dancer Sally Silvers featuring professional dancers, students from Purchase College Conservatory of Dance, and students from Purchase Youth Ballet. November 4, 1998, 7:00 pm: Poetry in Performance featuring poets Jackson Mac Low, Joe Elliot, and Johanna Drucker. September 26 to October 24, 1998: Printed Matter Bookstore at DIA, 77 Wooster Street, New York City, is hosting a special exhibition in conjunction with The Next Word and artists' books by participating artists will be featured and available for purchase. (212) 925-0325. Bus transportation available from Printed Matter Bookstore to the Neuberger Museum the night of the opening, September 26. Call (914) 251-6100 for more information. A CATALOGUE of the exhibition is available through the Neuberger Musuem. The NEXT WORD Neuberger Museum of Art Purchase College, SUNY 735 Anderson Hill Road, Purchase, New York (914) 251-6100 for more information. --=====================_23147625==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The NEXT WORD curated by Johanna Drucker
NEUBERGER MUSEUM of ART, September 20, 1998 to January 31, 1999

The NEXT WORD is an interdisciplinary exhibition of work in visual art,
artists' books, visual poetry, and graphic design by artists who=20 are
examining the ways texts and images produce meaning in contemporary
society. The daily landscape of late 20th-century American culture is
saturated with visual and verbal messages and many of the works in this
exhibition reflect this daily experience with the look of language as an
image. Artists have long been responsive to the visual properties=20 of
written language while poets and designers are intrigued by the inherent
tension between reading a text for meaning and looking at its visible form.
Whether committed to individual expression or serving commercial interests,
artists in various fields make use of many of the same tools from
conventional to digital media. Thus artworks, commercial productions, and
advertising converse through a shared vocabulary of forms, while they
remain distinct through their motivations and messages.
        -- Johanna Drucker, from the catalogue for The Next Word

Participating artists include: Susan Barron, Susan Bee, Charles Bernstein,
Jake Berry, Lisa Bloomfield, Bill Burke, Chris Burnett, Martha Carothers,
David Carson, Class Action, Critical Art Ensemble, Michael Corris, Clay
Debevoise, The Font Bureau, Brad Freeman, Gary Gissler, Joan Goswell, Edgar
Heap of Birds, Julie Harrison, Joe Elliot, Scott Helmes, Jack Hirschman,
Tatana Kellner, Susan King, Ruth Laxson, Stephanie Brody Lederman, Warren
Lehrer, Zuzanna Licko, Glenn Ligon, Joan Lyons, Jackson Mac Low, Clifton
Meador, Emily McVarish, Alistair Noble, James Petrillo, Archie=20 Rand,
ReVerb, Gary Richman, Paula Scher, Felicia Rice, Guillermo Gomez-Pe=F1a,
Enrique Chagoya, Mira Schor, Blair Seagram, Clarissa Sligh, Austin Straus,
Anne Tardos, Rudy VanderLans, Irving Weiss, Anna Wolf, Jody Zellen, Murray Zimiles, Philip Zimmermann, Janet Zweig, and others. Special 'Zine
selection curated by Matt Ferranto.

Special Events:

September 26, 6:30 - 8:00: Opening Reception, Neuberger Museum

October 8, 1998, 4:00 pm: All-Campus SUNY Purchase Conference: "New Media: Assessing the Impact on Teaching, Art, and Scholarship," with Purchase
College Faculty members Johanna Drucker, Margot Lovejoy, Jim McElwaine,
Peter Ohring, Nina Strauss, and Gary Waller.

October 18, 1998: 12:45 to 1:30 pm: Gallery Talk and Tour with Johanna
Drucker, curator of The Next Word.

October 18, 1998, 2:00 pm: Outdoor Dance by internationally acclaimed
dancer Sally Silvers featuring professional dancers, students from Purchase
College Conservatory of Dance, and students from Purchase Youth Ballet.

November 4, 1998, 7:00 pm: Poetry in Performance featuring poets Jackson
Mac Low, Joe Elliot, and Johanna Drucker.

September 26 to October 24, 1998: Printed Matter Bookstore at DIA, 77
Wooster Street, New York City, is hosting a special exhibition in
conjunction with The Next Word and artists' books by participating artists
will be featured and available for purchase. (212) 925-0325.

Bus transportation available from Printed Matter Bookstore to the Neuberger
Museum the night of the opening, September 26. Call (914) 251-6100 for more
information.

A CATALOGUE of the exhibition is available through the Neuberger Musuem.

The NEXT WORD
Neuberger Museum of Art
Purchase College, SUNY
735 Anderson Hill Road, Purchase, New York
(914) 251-6100 for more information.

--=====================_23147625==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:29:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Padín: "The Options of Mail Art" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The first of what I hope will be several works by the Uruguayan visual poet and mail artist Clemente Padín is among the Guest Artist work of Vispo. First up is his essay "The Options of Mail Art," with an introduction I wrote, at http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews/vispo/ClementePadin/ClementeIntroToOptionsOfMailArt.html Regards, Jim Andrews -- V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:34:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: poetics seminar In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For all my fellow Lawrencians (and all others lurking in the bi-state area >(Judy, MaryRose, Jim, George, Dale, Ken etc.)-- The first meeting of the >poetics seminar will be tomorrow (Sept. 16) at 5 p.m. in the Hall Center. >The presenter is Joe Harrington (dept. of English): "Poetry as Crossing: >The Newspaper Poems of Anna Louis Strong (Anise), 1918-1920." > >On Oct 14 is George Hartley: "The Poetics of Hybridity" on Nov. 18: Ken >Irby: "The Poetry and Poetics of Robert Duncan." > >The spring schedule is still wide open and I welcome your suggestions. > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 Who's Dale? Cheers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:25:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: LA READINGS In-Reply-To: <2e3dab12.35fda26e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just wanted to add something to Standard's post: If you want more info about the L.A. Books readings, check out the web site: http://www.litpress.com You'll also find photos from previous readings at Cafe Balcony. And, as always, we post annoucements of new publications by literary presses (newly updated). --Chris Reiner On Mon, 14 Sep 1998, P.Standard Schaefer wrote: > Just wanted to let LA area people that the LA BOOKS READING SERIES has > resumed. > > Stephen Ratcliffe and Todd Baron > > will be reading this Sunday 4pm at Cafe Balconey > > which is located on the West Side at 12431 Rochester at the corner of Santa > Monica and Centinela. > > Hope to see you there. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:14:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: oval orifice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tricky-Dicky, Tricky-Dick, come out, open Bill's Gates Pray tell, how your contrary garden do grow? Compere our vegetate seeds, mix our Fates Dick, blow on that schtick, tit-willow tit-willow. If you're tired of a two-way, call out Tricky-Dick When in search of a new way, a less schticky schtick He'll huff you and puff you, you just take your pick All hail!, the adaptor, your friend, Tricky-Dick. Lewd Pinky put the boxes in the Capitol and the world rolled away. Hanky-Panky sweeps these broken worlds for love. Tricky-Dick oil your eye from that buttercup shell. Lewd Pinky does the cigar dance, Asia falls to its knees. Hanky-Panky corroborates sex-change truth with advocates of sun-dried life. Tricky-Dick, calling the hail from the hallways of the malls of America. Tricky-Dicky, Tricky-Dick, come out, open Bill's Gates Pray tell, how your contrary garden do glow? Compere our vegetate seeds, mix our Fates Dick, blow on that schtick, tit-willow tit-willow. Lewd Pinky busts through the door and Russia goes south. Humpty-Panky clutching at King's bannisters of sentimental poetry in a last ditch attempt to pre-empt the great fall. Lewd Pinky looking up deflation in American Heritage Dictionary, news fit to squint. Hanky-Panky runs a spellcheck on his memoirs, finds continual confusion as to whether pinky or Panky was his avowed intent. If you're tired of a two-way, call out Tricky-Dick When in search of a new way, a less sticky schtick He'll huff you and puff you, you just take your pick All hail, the adaptor, your friend, Tricky-Dick. Lewd Pinky tripped and packaged no need to leave the baby house. Tricky-Dick, hiding in the shadows of your shadows, with his banjo string twanging. Senator Hanky-Panky kisses Blair Rabbit during total eclipse of the moon, offspring from wind expectant. We take you there, behind the picket fence of Tricky-Dick. Lewd Pinky plump as LA, sharp as berets. "Hanky-Panky put as gold" the children chant, each time a ball gleams through their project hoop. Tricky-Dicky, Tricky-Dick, come out, open Bill's Gates Pray tell, how your contrary garden do grow? Compere our vegetate seeds, mix our Fates Dick, blow on that schtick, tit-willow tit-willow. Lewd Pinky gnawing squirrel for dinner as the place goes nuts. The Tale of Little Brave Hanky-Panky, over 3 billion copies sold worldwide! Lewd Pinky floating boats economists had forgotten to plug. Hanky-panky in a fit of peek, caught nappying with Woody Allen down at the neon strip reading 'shrimp in the house'. If you're tired of a two-way, call out Tricky-Dick When in search of a new way, a less sticky schtick He'll huff you and puff you, you just take your pick All hail, the adaptor, your friend, Tricky-Dick. Lewd Pinky grand juried, squaring the circle jerk. "Hanky-the rope-Panky saves the end of the day, read all abort it!". Tricky-Dick peucing the blandishments of a twisted artefact. Lewd Pinky Nancy's eyes gone Democrat, smile like a bruise. Hanky-Bannister, pissed as case of built, sycophants notwithstanding, hick as a stub. Tricky-Dick peucing the blandishments of a tristed Arniefact. Tricky-Dicky, Tricky-Dick, come out, open Bill's Gates Pray tell, how your contrary garden do glow? Compere our vegetate seeds, mix our Fates Dick, blow on that schtick, tit-willow tit-willow. Lewd Pinky moving millions into Treasury Bills. Bull market - Hanky-Panky drives the dream tomb home. Lewd Pinky's signature a genre of memoir everybody speeds. Thank God for Hanky-Panky! Lewd Pinky and the Sudanese it's sticky. Hanky declares war on off-colour duds, official, the Panky pledge in full, inside. Lewd Pinky's mouth an oval full of lampoon. 'Hanky-Panky go home, phone (phoneme) the raft son. Lewd Pinky, Lewd Pinky, they moan in Indiana; Lewd Pinky Lewd Pinky, sanctimonious Connecticut cries. Hanky-Panky, Hanky-Panky runs for term, the low-down on those impacted knees. Lewd Pinky red rude, blue nude Lewd Pinky. Hanky-Panky sings the folks back home. Lewd Pinky put up, Lewd Pinky downloaded, Lewd Pinky on bar stools, Lewd Pinky fast food. Vote H-P, the man who stands for Higher Purchase, vote for H-P it can't get any better, H-P, H-P, it won't get any worse. Interlude buzzes the phone off the hook, the voice on the line, the ear in a crook. "Er, listen, H-P, it's Tricky Dick; can you please explain what's up with this shtick? I'm thinking you saps maybe just need a third, and I'm beating the Bush, it's bad bad bad. Let me have a refrain if a refrain's to be had." C=I=G=A=R S=E=X Mail Sex PHONE SEX Pizza Times PIZZA SEX Phone Sports Daily Mail Head Lines h-a-n-g-i-t-u-p-h-a-n-g-i-t-u-p "The full Olympic atmostphere" from ear waxes to belly nurr "like doing homework" on her knees, polishing the flowers "she let slip a 'breast'" nothing the rocket bra can't sort print says of the tube Squeezed and Direct Prosecute to the full extent every inch of it hackers in New York going deeper into the body rewrote the front page 'Driv-ing on Ac-id is Ea-sy!' defending their activity Tricky Pinky needs that Hanky "To get her own show" the name's Moniker "sanctions are likely" but the initial M will have to do "it's plain that sex" or something resembling it, in name only "it's very disappointing" UK bans viagra, falls expected traffic jams but few crashes the memory rendered obsolete Internet Data Analysis access to only certain 'bits' "sparkle in shades of gray" pardon, bytes excerpts from the second rebuttal "ARNIE!" "ARNIE!" cc + kt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: chronic poverty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Writing in a Garret or Garrotted If anyone out there needs proofreading or copyediting, please let me know. If anyone out there needs internet advice or advice for the internet love- lorn, please let me know. Honestly small charges under all conditions including internet consulting. Circumstances are relatively dire here. Please backchannel. Please disseminate and pass on my work as quickly as possible wherever possible before the Y2K problem blows up the hard drives. Since I'm fairly marginal, any stolen republished texts greatly appreciated. Once I'm dead also you may have my body to do with what you will, but it's a poor body and there's not much in the doing. Meanwhile, trying to organize a panel on the future of the net - below some topics - request for comments - Community - What emerging forms of community will come into existence? Virtual Reality - What enhanced modes of perception will exist? Access - How will the rest of the world be wired? Will it? With what consequences? Geopolitics - How will the global political and economic climates change as a result of a world-wide network? Information Wars - What sorts of hacking, vulnerabilities, and propaganda moves will occur? How will these interact with "real" vandalisms and wars? Subjects and History - Will "history" still exist? Will the "subject"? Will capital tend to dominate the online user, and will he or she be "inserted" into capital? Resistance and Culture - What forms of resistance and culture will occur? Cyborgia - What forms of technology will transform the body itself into the networked body? That's about it - if the panel flies, I'll let you know. Have a couple of chapbooks appearing, I'll let you know; I'm more than greatful for them. Are there swat teams for flies? Alan-in-the-face-of-the-moon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:39:19 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: call for work for Chain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Did I already submit this? If so, please ignore. We really need some good archival or letters as cultural artifact type stuff if anyone has any ideas (we need less work that breaks words into letters--already got a healthy sampling). ------------------- Chain /6: Letters so adieu deelest Md Md Md FW FW Me Me Me Lele I can say lele yet oo see—Fais I don’t conceal a bitt —Jonathan Swift You say I confess the little mistake and omit the large-Because I see Orthography- —Emily Dickinson But as well as being both material and abstract, letters have another important characteristic: they are collective. There is a collective store of letters (the linguistic system) and this is what allows communication between subjects, and interpretation. —Jean Jacques Lecercle Meaning is never simple (except in mathematics), and the letters which form a word, though each of them is rationally insignificant . . . keep searching, in us, for their freesdom, which is to signify something else. —Roland Barthes I am composed of nine letters. —Susan Howe Epistolary exchanges, alphabets, symbols, orthographies, archival finds, typographies, correspondences, lettrist hypergraphies, the letter of the law, fonts, emblems, handwriting, inscriptions, glyphs, gossip, notes, rebuses, phonetics, mesostics, acrostics, graphemes, anagrams, hypograms, scarlet, purloined, valentines, letters from camp, letters from the front . . . As always, we especially encourage collaborative, interdisciplinary, and mixed media work. Please send poems, essays, performance texts, film or video stills, scripts, camera ready visual art, musical scores, choreographic notes, proposals, etc., by December 1, 1998. Please send copies to both Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr; send only visual art to Janet Zweig (addresses are on page 295). Please do not send submissions by email. Submissions on disk are acceptable, but please enclose a hard copy for our reference. More extensive submission guidelines are available via our web site (accessible from http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mags). Please enclose a self addressed, stamped envelope if you would like your work returned. call for work Different Languages Website We are working on setting up a website of multilingual works. The website will present a bibliography, out of print works, testimony and assignments from people using multilingual works in the classroom, and criticism. Please send work—poems, prose, essay, plays, camera ready visual art, performance texts, film or video stills, clips, and/or scripts, criticism, musical scores and/or sound files, choreographic notes, teaching statements, bibliographies or bibliography entries, suggestions for reprints of out of print works—for consideration to us anytime in the next year. We encourage you to submit to this project on disk (although if you do so, please send an accompanying paper copy for our reference). Please send submissions for this project to both Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr. Please do not send submissions by email. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 15:42:51 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: addresses for chain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry. Forget to give addresses for Chain submissions: Jena Osman Department of English P.O. Box 1000 Ursinus College Collegeville, Pennsylvania 19426 Juliana Spahr Department of English 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai‘i, Manoa Honolulu, Hawai‘i 96822 Janet Zweig 54 Willow Street Brooklyn, New York 11201 (only visual art) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:50:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: The Body of Alan Jennifer Sondheim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is a fine one, this was in public that I had my arms around him and he was a wonderfully warm, resilient armful, but I dont want his body after he's dead. In fact the whole problem of dying is that one leaves (generally speaking) a corpus delecti behind. Alan, I've downloaded some of your writings and will b-c you as to which....give me a week, I'm deadlined territory right now. Not much discretionary income, though, in fact, none. Isnt there a List for the Rich? DB, Unsocial Sect'y, A J Sondheim Soc'y. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:53:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and i'll take Best American Pot, 1998 don > > Hey, Natalia, order me up a couple copies of DINK.... > or at least VIRILITY, with a side order of > poems for the num--either volume...... > thanks, chris > >On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Natalia Pang wrote: > >> Ted Hughes, The Birdy Leers, 1,835 >> Best American Pot, 1998 3,761 >> AG, owl & her ems 3,890 (after 43 years!) >> Donald Hall, Wo 14,135 >> Poems for the num, Vol 2 24,970 >> Poems for the num, Vol 1 33,095 >> Allen Ginsberg, Colom 33,291 >> Jorie Graham, Dram of a fed i 44,291 (not a typo) >> JD McClatchy, I'm a fucky Bozo! 70,244 >> Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 >> Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 >> The L=U=N=G=R=A=G=E Book 89,148 >> Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 >> Robert Hass, Morning Wood 97,067 >> Celan, Breathturn 98,518 >> Perelman, gila of Poetry 128,700 >> Ashbery, no ear, Bird 134,833 >> Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 >> Dana Gioia, Molestor 151,311 >> Jorie Graham, Ern 154,316 >> Perloff, Radical ice 163,982 >> Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 >> In the American Tree 189,557 >> Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 >> Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 >> Watten, ram 219,401 >> Hejinian, The Cotry 245,352 >> Elaine Equi, coy 247,338 >> Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 >> Bernstein, Close ting 356,420 >> Watten, Tax 362,114 >> Coolidge, tex 389,892 >> Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 >> Perelman, Virity 462,792 >> Perelman, Wralks 522,751 >> Armantrout, Made teem 566,537 >> RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, L'ning rad 665,959 >> Silliman, Dink 771,155 >> Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) >> Fanny Howe, Td 920,071 >> O'Sullivan, Ouf 1,061,724 >> Bromige, Harm aster of Hogo 1,146,129 >> Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > ======================== Visit Don Cheney's Home Page & Clean Neck Shop http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791 ============================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:36:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: chronic poverty Comments: To: "A. Jenn Sondheim" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: A. Jenn Sondheim Date: 16 September 1998 01:01 Subject: chronic poverty |Meanwhile, trying to organize a panel on the future of the net - below |some topics - request for comments - | |Community - What emerging forms of community will come into existence? |Virtual Reality - What enhanced modes of perception will exist? |Access - How will the rest of the world be wired? Will it? With what | consequences? |Geopolitics - How will the global political and economic climates change | as a result of a world-wide network? |Information Wars - What sorts of hacking, vulnerabilities, and propaganda | moves will occur? How will these interact with "real" vandalisms and | wars? |Subjects and History - Will "history" still exist? Will the "subject"? | Will capital tend to dominate the online user, and will he or she be | "inserted" into capital? |Resistance and Culture - What forms of resistance and culture will occur? |Cyborgia - What forms of technology will transform the body itself into | the networked body? what kind of panel, please? Physical, virtual, or something else? Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Best Sellers (?) In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19980915205234.00de9790@mail.geocities.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Humboldt County, California. On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Don Cheney wrote: > and i'll take Best American Pot, 1998 > don > > > > > Hey, Natalia, order me up a couple copies of DINK.... > > or at least VIRILITY, with a side order of > > poems for the num--either volume...... > > thanks, chris > > > >On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Natalia Pang wrote: > > > >> Ted Hughes, The Birdy Leers, 1,835 > >> Best American Pot, 1998 3,761 > >> AG, owl & her ems 3,890 (after 43 years!) > >> Donald Hall, Wo 14,135 > >> Poems for the num, Vol 2 24,970 > >> Poems for the num, Vol 1 33,095 > >> Allen Ginsberg, Colom 33,291 > >> Jorie Graham, Dram of a fed i 44,291 (not a typo) > >> JD McClatchy, I'm a fucky Bozo! 70,244 > >> Margy Sloan, Moving Borders 72,240 > >> Acker, Blood & Guts in High School 75,073 > >> The L=U=N=G=R=A=G=E Book 89,148 > >> Acker, Bodies of Work 97,182 > >> Robert Hass, Morning Wood 97,067 > >> Celan, Breathturn 98,518 > >> Perelman, gila of Poetry 128,700 > >> Ashbery, no ear, Bird 134,833 > >> Creeley, Collected Poems 136,634 > >> Dana Gioia, Molestor 151,311 > >> Jorie Graham, Ern 154,316 > >> Perloff, Radical ice 163,982 > >> Lew Welch, Ring of Bone 176,647 > >> In the American Tree 189,557 > >> Acker, Don Quixote 192,379 > >> Creeley, Life and Death 198,541 > >> Watten, ram 219,401 > >> Hejinian, The Cotry 245,352 > >> Elaine Equi, coy 247,338 > >> Bernstein, Dark City 288,634 > >> Bernstein, Close ting 356,420 > >> Watten, Tax 362,114 > >> Coolidge, tex 389,892 > >> Gertrude Stein Awards, 94-95 448,790 > >> Perelman, Virity 462,792 > >> Perelman, Wralks 522,751 > >> Armantrout, Made teem 566,537 > >> RS, Lyn, Watten, Davidson, L'ning rad 665,959 > >> Silliman, Dink 771,155 > >> Silliman, Xing 771,157 (Meow Press!) > >> Fanny Howe, Td 920,071 > >> O'Sullivan, Ouf 1,061,724 > >> Bromige, Harm aster of Hogo 1,146,129 > >> Jim Brodey, Heart of Breath 1,148,421 > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > > > > > > ======================== > Visit Don Cheney's Home Page & Clean Neck Shop > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791 > ============================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Nava Fader contact info? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone have Nava Fader's E-mail address? Thanks, Katy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:03:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Dodge Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List: I'm posting some info about the upcoming Geraldine R. Dodge Festival that is taking place at Waterloo Village, Stanhope, NJ. Though I'm well-aware that the poetry of some of the participants may send some list members into doing uncontrollable and illegal acts, I'm hoping that this info might be forwarded on to those with an interest in the poetry mainstream. If you are teaching creative writing classes, I hope you let your students know aboutthis event -- which is the largest poetry festival in North America. As a matter of truth-in-advertising, I am a publicist for the event. Among the over 60 readers are Amiri Baraka Sharon Olds Bei Dao W. S. Merwin Eliot Weinberger Alicia Ostriker Galway Kinnell Marge Piercy Robert Pinsky Adrienne Rich Faye Chiang Denise Duhamel Bob Holman Mark Doty & Lucille Clifton There are also open readings, workshops, talks and other poetry related events. The festival runs from Thursday September 24 thru Sunday September 27. Events run from 8am to about 10pm. Waterloo Village is a beautiful site and if you bring along non-poetry type friends, they can wander around the pond, lake and restored section of the Morris Canal. There is food and refreshments available, as well as a large poetry book store run by Borders. Waterloo Village is in Sussex County and is off Exit 25 of Route 80. Follow signs to Stanhope/Waterloo Village. There is a Poetry Bus that is leaving from the Port Authority Bus Terminal which will be showing the "Poetry Heaven" video made at the last festival. The ride takes about an hour and fifteen minutes A full schedule is available at: www.grdodge.org. You can e-mail the festival offices at festival@grdodge.org. A day pass for Th-Sat is $16. There is a $10 ticket for evening events as well as all-day Sunday. A festival pass is $50. There are reduced rates for students and seniors Tickets are available at the gate or thru Ticketmaster (201-507-8900 or www.ticketmaster.com). People can backchannel with any questions about the festival. Hope to see you there! Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:13:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Paul Long? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anybody able to help me find Paul Long would be a big help indeed. Backchannel thanks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:38:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: This week: San Francisco events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, this is Dodie. Before I announce the beginning of Small Press Traffic's 24th season, I'd like to mention a group video show that's happening this Thursday (the 17th) at ATA (Artist's Television Access), right down the street from SPT at 992 Valencia. It's an evening of shorts by a variety of local video makers. In one, by Kota Ezawa, Kevin Killian plays the head of Muni, whose secretary murders him with snake venom and dumps his body in Golden Gate Park. Commuters, come indulge your fantasies! (Muni is the increasingly dreadful San Francisco transit system.) ------------------- Verse and Vino, our new series at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts! co-produced with YBC=B9s In Conversation series (curated by Natasha Boas) =46riday, September 18, 7:30 p.m. Roberto Tejada Rodrigo Toscano We are pleased to begin this new series of poetry and wine evenings at Yerba Buena with Rodrigo Toscano and--in a rare visit to San Francisco--the art writer and poet Roberto Tejada. Roberto Tejada was born in Los Angeles, California (1964). He has published critical reviews and writings on contemporary Latin American artists and photographers in Bolet=EDn de Curare, La jornada, Artes de Mexico, Luna cornea (Mexico),Third Text (UK) Flash Art (US-Italy) Arte Internacional and Art Nexus (Colombia). After ten years in Mexico City, editing Mandorla: New Writing From the Americas, an annual of advanced poetry and poetics, Tejada lives now in Austin where he's the assistant curator at the Wittliff Gallery of Southwestern and Mexican Photography at Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos. His poetry slows down the "reckless velocity of the social" with the figures and tropes of international (post) modernism. This writing pingpongs from a short, fragmentary, careful line a la Beckett to vast postapocalyptic caverns of fantasy and Bataillean distress. His enemy? The implacable, trivial "exoticism" demanded by the market, hell on serious art production. Rodrigo Toscano's poetry, like his work in the labor movement, has become a cutting edge laboratory for social action. Does "poetry make nothing happen"? Don=B9t tell that to Toscano, whose dizzying, polyvocal poetry begins with the speech of two nations and deconstructs it to a revolutionary music. Toscano's work has won him many fans among the "Language" and "post-Language" poets, but it's a nightmarish mirror of the social realities behind both the headlines and the stories we don=B9t hear about. Originally from San Diego, Toscano's forthcoming books include The Disparities (Sun and Moon), and Partisans (O Books). His work has appeared in journals such as New American Writing, Chain, West Coast Line, Poetics Journal, The Washington Review, Zyzzyva, Big Allis, Tripwire, Object/Torque and others. He is currently at work on an as yet untitled book commissioned by Atelos Press. Check out our new space! Yerba Buena Center for the Arts Lounge 701 Mission Street (at 3rd), San Francisco $5/$3 for seniors & students ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:31:26 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Keep The British Library Free Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" KEEP THE BRITISH LIBRARY FREE! September 15th 1998 Dear Poet As you may know, the Board of the British Library is currently considering a proposal to charge readers 300 pounds a year for use of the reading rooms. This proposal was put forward in a Strategic Review Consultation Paper issued in mid-July and which called for responses by 28th August. The decision on whether to recommend to the government the introduction of charges will be made at a final meeting of the Board on October 16th. KEEP THE BRITISH LIBRARY FREE! has been set up to campaign against the introduction of any form of charging. The Campaign believes that charging for use of the reading rooms would alter irrevocably the nature of the Library, as well as contravene the directives of the 1972 British Library Act, which established a national centre for reference, study and bibliographic and other information services. Any charging scheme, whatever exemptions might be offered, would inevitably exclude some individuals on the grounds of inability to pay. Over and above that, every tax-payer has, of course, already paid for use of the reading rooms - by contributing 80 million pounds a year to the Library. Despite the fact that the consultation period took place at a time when most academics, writers, and students were away, the Campaign has rallied strong opposition to this proposal. At the end of August, it organised a successful public meeting, attended by over 200 people, and addressed by Frances DSouza, Frank Kermode, and Roy Hattersley, among others. And on 28th August, a 150-strong lobby presented the Board with a petition of over 6000 signatures and 250 letters of protest. In addition, there have been many letters in the press about the issue, and several lengthier articles. A recent broadcast about the Campaign on the BBC World Service reached over 140 million listeners worldwide. We would very much like you to help us in the Campaign. We are sure you subscribe to the view that libraries are fundamental to a thriving democracy, culture, civilisation and economy and agree that charges at the national library would set a precedent for local public libraries to introduce charges of their own. More particularly, as a publisher, I am sure you would wish to support the many writers who use the British Library - as such individuals are essential producers in the industry itself. Your primary suppliers, in fact. It is very important, therefore, that we keep up the pressure on the British Library Board in order to ensure that the introduction of charges does not continue as an option. We need your support. Here is how you can help the Campaign: (1) Please send a message of support to Keep the British Library Free! c/o Ian Wollington, Flat 3, 91 Richmond Road, London E8 3AA e-mail: wolly@wollington.demon.co.uk (2) Respond to the Strategic Review Consultation Paper. Although the consultation period has formally ended, the Paper says that it would still welcome responses after this date, though by now it is vital that you do so as soon as possible. A copy of the Strategic Review Consultation Paper can be accessed on the Internet at http://www.bl.uk Responses can be by fax 0171 412 7251; or by e-mail at: strategic.review@bl.uk For further information and details, you can access our website on: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8435/Library.html (3) Come to the rally on the afternoon of 14th October, two days before the final decision is made. We plan to gather in the piazza of the British Library at 2pm. We will have speakers to address the meeting. It is vital, therefore, that as many people as possible attend. We need to show the strength of the opposition to these charges. We hope therefore that you and other members of your organisation will be able to attend. You may even wish to speak at the meeting. (4) Finally, we do need funds to finance the campaign - to pay for leaflets, posters, the hire of meeting halls, and so on. Please send any donation, however small, to Keep the British Library Free!, c/o Bryan Smith, 26 Devonia Road, London N1 8JH If you need any further information, please do not hesitate to contact either: - Ian Wollington on 0171 2499592 or wolly@wollington.demon.co.uk or Peter Preston at VERTICALINE@HOTMAIL.COM. Many thanks. Yours sincerely, Ian Wollington & Peter Preston List of Supporters: Peter Ackroyd, Tariq Ali, Professor Robin Alston, Professor Aziz Al-Azmeh, Richard Barbrook (Hypermedia Research Centre), Professor Chris Baldry (University of Stirling), Tony Benn, Alex Callinicos, Nick Cohen, Mel Doyle (Deputy General of the Workers Education Association), Frances D Souza (Article 19), David Edgar, Keith Flett, Michael Foot, Dr. Gregor Gall (University of Stirling), Roy Hattersley, Robert Harris, Frank Kermode, Doris Lessing, Professor David Marquand, NUJ, Dr. John ONeill (University of Lancaster), Ursula Owen (Editor of Index on Censorship), Professor Michael Preston (University of Colorado), Jonathan Re (University of Middlesex), Professor Stephen Rose (Open University), Conrad Russell, South Islington Bangladesh Association, Max Stafford-Clark, Tom Stoppard, Philip Taylor (University of Stirling), Hilary Wainwright (Red Pepper), Fay Weldon, Francis Wheen. ======================================================================== ============================ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:50:30 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: LA READINGS]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------192B6E0F47F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------192B6E0F47F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and......from JK: Joel Kuszai wrote: > > todd, > > i seem to only be able to write to others on earthlink. > please send a note to poetics indicating that I cannot reply to anyone who > isn't on earthlink and thus my absence from email for the last week. > > I do not have a place to live and have no access to my account most of the > time. > > a message comes on the screen saying, "so and so" is not acceptable to your > STMP server. Please fix it. etc. but I'm simply replying, etc. so I don't > know what to do. I don't have a phone so I cannot call them... > > help --------------192B6E0F47F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from [160.227.173.231] ([160.227.174.235]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19308 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: kuszai@mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35FE1818.11CC@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:13:34 -0800 To: toddbaron@earthlink.net From: Joel Kuszai Subject: Re: [Fwd: LA READINGS] todd, i seem to only be able to write to others on earthlink. please send a note to poetics indicating that I cannot reply to anyone who isn't on earthlink and thus my absence from email for the last week. I do not have a place to live and have no access to my account most of the time. a message comes on the screen saying, "so and so" is not acceptable to your STMP server. Please fix it. etc. but I'm simply replying, etc. so I don't know what to do. I don't have a phone so I cannot call them... help --------------192B6E0F47F-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:57:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Fred Moten Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Grateful for any kind of address or phone for Fred Moten. Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Shiny No. 9/10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain SHINY MAGAZINE No. 9/10 will be available in December 1998. The magazine is edited by Michael Friedman, with Duncan Hannah as art editor and Eileen Myles, Ron Padgett and Geoffrey Young as contributing editors. No. 9/10 is guest-edited by Larry Fagin, 224 pages long and sticks with the same format that received the Society of Publication Designers' Merit Award in 1993.... The issue features work by over 30 poets, including: **OVER 25 PAGES FROM TED BERRIGAN'S JOURNALS** Plus: John Ashbery, Stephen Rodefer, Lyn Hejinian, Harry Mathews, Clark Coolidge, Carla Harryman, Ted Berrigan and Ron Padgett, Michael Gizzi, Tim Davis, Ange Mlinko, Ted Greenwald, Judith Goldman, David Meltzer, Lisa Jarnot, Miles Champion, Pierre Reverdy, Gillian McCain, etc. Special pre-publication price includes free postage. To order, send check or money order for $15.00 payable to: Shiny International Publications, Inc. to: Shiny, P.O. Box 13125, Denver, CO 80201. After Nov. 10, please enclose $2.50 for postage and handling. SHINY nos. 1 - 8 were published between 1986 and 1992 in NYC. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:31:54 +0900 Reply-To: kimball@post.miyazaki-med.ac.jp Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kimball Organization: kimball@post.miyazaki-med.ac.jp Subject: Gordon Lish Festschrift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forwarding this message from Deron Bauman and Cooper Renner. Tentative deadline for submissions is Nov. 1. Contact Renner at or at the address, below, for further info. Thanks. _________________________________ Deron Bauman, editor of the online literary magazine "elimae" , has agreed to use the "pages" of "elimae" as the host site for a Festchrift in honor of Gordon Lish. Gordon, as many of you probably know, has sustained any number of generally unjust and inaccurate portrayals, and we would like to counter these portrayals with positive depictions which reflect the marvelous work he has done for many of us as editor and/or teacher, as well as thoughtful examinations of his writings by any of you who would like to do more scholarly or critical writing. With the proper submissions to work with, we can make this festschrift the first really in-depth look at Gordon's work, an archive of material for current and future readers and students, and a generous tribute which a man who has helped so many of us deserves to be able to read. If you are interested in contributing to the festschrift, the form which your contribution takes-- memoir, critical review, personal essay-- is up to you. If you have contact with other writers who would like to contribute, please help us to spread the word. Online contributions will be easiest for us to handle, and should be sent to the email address on this message, but regular mail will be accepted as well and should be sent to: Cooper Renner 2617 Roosevelt San Antonio, TX 78214 Thanks for your attention. Yours, Cooper Renner Deron Bauman _________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: chronic poverty Comments: To: "Lawrence Upton." In-Reply-To: <01bde16e$ae6eefc0$LocalHost@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm trying to organize a real panel on this subject for the spring, here in New York - proposing this to the School of Visual Arts. It would be in real space; there might be a Net component - I've done that a lot before, and the Cybermind conference we held in Perth, Australia, involved every- thing from CuSeeMe video to Real Audio to newsgroups, a MOO, etc. (I was there in real life.) So we'll see... yours, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:02:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i.("In China, the buzz is that Lewinsky is KGB agent") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 05:31 AM ET 09/16/98 By Matt Pottinger BEIJING, Sept 16 (Reuters) - ``Is Lewinsky with the KGB?'' screams a headline in a popular Chinese magazine. As the White House sex scandal unfolds, the racier publications on Beijing newstands are having a field day with the story, even as staid newspapers such as the People's Daily report the simple facts without the tawdry details. Packed with gossip on U.S. President Bill Clinton's plight, the latest issue of Guandong Writer magazine would make Western tabloid editors green with envy. The cover story is entitled ``Clinton's Sex Scandal: White House or Palace of Lust?'' Its most sensational allegation: Former White House intern Monica Lewinsky was sent to Washington, when she was a child in the 1970s, as a Cold War agent on a mission to sexually ensnare the president and destabilise U.S. politics. ``Information has exposed Monica Lewinsky as a spy assigned by the former Soviet Union. Her mission was to drag a U.S. president through the mud!'' the article said. The story was attributed to a retired KGB official who now runs a karaoke bar in Moscow. Beijing is buzzing with the story, which is taken as fact by many residents. ``Isn't Lewinsky a Russian spy?'' said 38-year-old Xu Tieliang, as he dug into his pockets for cash to buy cigarettes at a street market. ``I read it in one of the little papers. Maybe the American newspapers are scared to print it,'' he said. Clinton is a familiar and well liked figure in China, where he appeared uncensored on national television during a groundbreaking visit in June. Officially, China is silent on the sex scandal. ``We don't comment on that,'' said a foreign ministry official on Tuesday in response to a reporter's question. State media largely ignored the story until U.S. independent counsel Ken Starr issued his report alleging potential grounds for Clinton's impeachment. Even then, stories in the Communist Party mouthpiece, the People's Daily -- a benchmark of political correctness in China -- have been terse and buried on the inside pages. Lurid details of oral sex have been ignored. The popular media, including tabloids and city broadsheets, tested the limits of official tolerance by initially running news briefs. Sensing the coast was clear, they abandoned caution, and now Clinton's follies are grist for radio talk-shows and full-page newspaper spreads. The subject matter has ranged from salacious gossip to poignant political commentary. The Yangcheng Evening News, a southern daily, on Tuesday splashed fuzzy pictures apparently skimmed from the Internet portraying Clinton with a ``mystery woman'' it dubbed ``the second Monica Lewinsky.'' Other papers have taken a crack at putting the scandal in context for Chinese readers, while poking fun at U.S. hysteria. ``Sometimes you simply don't know whether to laugh or cry over Western democracy. In what is supposedly the 'sexually liberated' West, people are really making a mountain out of a molehill,'' said the Guandong Writer. A commentary in China Women's News entitled ``Poor Fellow'' starts out by moralising about Clinton's excesses, but ends up praising the United States for having ``stricter supervision than any country on earth'' over its government. If a president could be skewered for something as slight as a character problem, the commentary said ``what official over there would ever dare to engage in corruption.'' In a wry jab at Chinese politics, the author suggested that Clinton could avoid public scrutiny if he were a Chinese official instead of an American one. ``It wouldn't hurt for you to give up the presidency and become head of a Chinese township or village. Maybe then you won't be sullied for a little 'morality problem','' it said. ^REUTERS@ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:16:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Dodge Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" any festival that has amiri baraka as a featured reader has nothing to be defensive about joel, he's the greatest. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: the death of the small press In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980906094217.007d0590@nunic.nu.edu> from "William Marsh" at Sep 6, 98 09:42:17 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works published by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses that quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. perhaps my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you on whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not want you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead and printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they sent me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics . . . that puts the work first. carl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 15 Sep 1998 to 16 Sep 1998 (#1998-65) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks for encouragement, billy. would also like that to note that Amina Baraka, Amiri's wife, will also be reading. She's a powerful writer, who has been at it for at least 20 years and is just getting some notice joel >Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:16:36 -0700 >From: Billy Little >Subject: Re: Dodge Poetry Festival >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >any festival that has amiri baraka as a featured reader has nothing to be >defensive about joel, he's the greatest. > >billy little billy little ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:46:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: the death of the small press In-Reply-To: <199809170414.VAA25586@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works published >by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses that >quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet >first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. perhaps >my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) >that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you on >whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not want >you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just >didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead and >printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. > >but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good >experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do >with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they sent >me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before >hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics >. . . that puts the work first. > >carl My experience with Burning Press was outstanding. Luigi (Bob) Drake took incredibale care with rather particular needs of my mss--some very odd spacing/arrangement which went completely out of whack when the font and such were altered. Luigi worked to get the text back to, at times better than, my original arrangement, and I was kept informed via email and proof copies every step of the way, including decisions about cover art, materials, bindings, etc. I couldn't have asked for a more conscientious and concerned editor. I have had only one bad experience, years ago--I don't even remember the journal, but it was, as I recall, fairly mainstream. They had obviously scanned my poem in with some OCR software and then barely attempted to correct the errors caused by it. The proofs were incorrect and my corrections were ignored. So, from my experience, which is extremely limited, it seems that small presses are more careful--this makes sense to me, anyway Dean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:49:34 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Textual abuse Content-Type: text/plain Both SUNY Buffalo and the Archive for New Poetry at UCSD have a copy of an early (1967 or 68) book of mine that was published by Jim Orsino-Sorcic at Gunrunner Press in Milwaukee. Jim was real young and new to the small press scene (as was I) when he did the book and he re-did linebreaks to make it fit his format. I felt totally violated at the time and still feel today as if I were the subject of an unwilling collaboration. Must have been how Rexroth felt at Zukofsky's reworking of his poem in the Objectivist Anthology. I've left that work off of my biblio (as you will note on the site at EPC) and have never considered it _my_ work. I've made a point of notating both extant copies in those archives and I don't have a copy of the book myself. And I've been much more careful after that. I do think that small press people are generally (not entirely) more careful than those in the larger presses where the flow of responsibility gets more distributed and less personally felt. But there's not much you can do about it, ultimately, beyond letting other people know which presses do that. Ron ron.silliman@gte.net >Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Carl Lynden Peters >Subject: the death of the small press >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works published >by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses that >quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet >first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. perhaps >my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) >that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you on >whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not want >you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just >didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead and >printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. > >but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good >experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do >with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they sent >me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before >hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics >. . . that puts the work first. > >carl > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:08:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Attack to artists (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Re the recent notes on events in Latin America and the Exhibition which Hans Braumuller is organizing--the following is of great importance-- =09I participated in the STOP exhibtion mentioned below--it was held in the Museum of Modern Art--Clemente Padin sent me some photos of works of his and mine and others--it was a major event--a large participation--we had a great deal to thank Humberto for --it is very disturbing to hear this news of his and others' firing for mounting this show--I hope as many of as possible write to the addresses below-- =09remember the attack on artists can come soon to your town--if not already! =09por la escritura en libertad! =09for writing in freedom! --dave baptiste chirot ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:00:10 -0500 (CDT) From: David Baptiste Chirot To: tinac@csd.uwm.edu Subject: Attack to artists (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:22:26 -0300 From: "Clemente [iso-8859-1] Pad=EDn" To: ideasz@tinored.cu, bobgrumman@nut-n-but.net, cafeturco@hotmail.com, postart@mail.internet.com.mx, dire@df1.telmex.net.mx, boek861@nil.fut.es, charfra@arcadis.be, danielf7@hotmail.com, plunkett@nd.org, dbchirot@csd.uwm.edu Subject: Attack to artists Dear friends: I am transmitting you this serious accusation of attack and censorship to the art and, in particular, to the mail art. The success of the campaign depends on you, it is say, it depend on the diffusion that you could give you to the communication (including thw wegsites) and of the expressions of rejection that you transmit to the addresses indicated to the end. Fraternal greetings. Estimado amigos: Estoy trasmitiendo a Uds. esta grave acusaci=F3n de ataque y censura al arte y, en particular, al arte correo. El =E9xito de la campa=F1a depende de Uds., es decir, depende de la difusi=F3n que Uds. l= e puedan dar al comunicado (incluyendo las p=E1ginas de internet) y de las expresiones de rechazo que Uds. trasmitan a las direcciones indicadas abajo. Saludos fraternos: CENSORSHIP AND ATTACK ON MAIL ART IN CHILE In response of the systematic and offensive political persecution and the intolerance that for various years have been going on at the University of Chile's Fine Art School (actions promoted and spurred by reactionary, totalitarian an pro Pinochet sectors) on March 98, the Mail Art Exhibit "Stop: liberty, diversity and pluralism" was held at the Santiago's Museum of Contemporary Art, in defense of the constant attacks by sectors in power. As a result, Humberto Nilo, the Director of the U. de Chile's Fine Art School and organizer of the event, was dismissed from his position along with the Museum's Director and the Curator of the exhibit: Mrs. Rosar= io Letelier and Mr. Ernesto Munioz. The brillant track records of the dismissed wich includes their strong defense of Human Rights during the chilean dictatorship; recuperating Guillermo Deisler memoirs, and hundreds of other artistic manifestation in defense of Human Rights and the dissemination of the best in Contemporary Art, were not taken into account. It is paradoxical, not to mention denigrating, that after 17 years of military dictatorship in Chile, and after reaching (as certain oficialist sectors proclaim) democratic and social harmony levels worthy of being emulated by the rest of the continent; we have to experience the sad specta= cle in wich cultural spaces are closed through economic strangulation, harrassm= ent and dismissal of distinguished artists, simply because they don't share the "official line" and open or covert censorship of critical manifestation= s on what's established and current. These cases, are not only attacks on people of proven professional and artistic excellence, they constitute a frontal attack on the principles that ground culture, in addition to being a crass outrage on the libertaria= n aspirations of an broad sector of the national and international artistic community. It is time we sponsor and stimulate the global coscience among all those artists who believe on the diversity and pluralism in art, to confront outrages such as that have just taken place in Chile. It has to be done now, since with the sophisticated strategies for manipulation and control, in the hands of the new inquisitioners of culture... tomorrow could be too late! The intolerance and desdain for cultural diversity are achieving strategic permanence in those places that have historically been destinated to protecting diversity. Perhaps that's why there's been a strong push to silence them. What about critical view and reflection? Or is it that we are facing the beginning of a world regime with a cultural policy that is predominently non-critical, blind and "light" aligned with the purposes of Neo-liberalism= ? Faced with the fear that the arrogance and brutality of the chilean regime could put in peril the future of Humberto Nilo, Rosario Letelier and Ernesto Munioz, we begin this World Campaign to repudiate censorship and personal attacks against any artist, regardless of whether he practices Mail Art, anywhere on the face of the Earth, requesting from everyone to send-in expressions of solidarity and rejection against all sorts of discriminatory policies on cultural matters, so that in some way, their offenders can't get away with their threats unscathed. CENSURA Y ATAQUE AL ARTE CORREO EN CHILE A ra=EDz de las sistem=E1ticas y ofensivas persecuciones pol=EDticas e intolerancia que por varios a=F1os se dan en la Facultad de Artes de la Universidad de Chile -acciones promovidas e incitad= as por sectores reaccionarios, totalitaristas y Pinochetistas- se convoc=F3 y realiz=F3 el pasado marzo de 1998, la exposici=F3n de arte correo "STOP: libertad, diversidad y pluralismo", en defensa de los constantes ataques de estos sectores de poder, en el Museo de Arte Contempor=E1neo de Santiago. Como resultado de la misma, el Director de la Escuela de Bellas Artes de la Universidad de Chile, Humberto Nilo, organizador de la muestra, no s=F3lo fue expulsado de su cargo, sino tambi=E9n, el Director y Curador del Museo que alberg=F3 la exposici=F3n la Sra. Rosario Letelier y el Sr. Ernesto Mu=F1oz. De nada sirvieron las brillantes trayectorias de los expulsados ni su f=E9rrea defensa de los derechos humanos durante la dictadura chilena, incluyendo la recuperaci=F3n de la memoria de Guillermo Deisler, el eterno exiliado, y cientos de otras manifestaciones art=EDsticas en defensa de los derechos humanos y la difusi=F3n de lo mejor del arte contempor=E1neo. Resulta parad=F3jico, por no decir denigrante, que despu=E9s de 17 a=F1os de dictadura militar en Chile, y habiendo alcanzado -seg=FAn lo pregonan ciertos sectores oficialistas- unos niveles de democracia y convivencia social dignos de emular en el resto del continente; tengamos que asistir al triste espect=E1culo de cierre de espacios culturales a trav=E9s del estrangulamiento econ=F3mico, el hostigamiento y despido de sus empleos de destacados artistas por no compartir con la l=EDnea oficial y la censura abierta o solapada de toda manifestaci=F3n cr=EDtica sobre lo establecido y lo vigente. Estos casos no son s=F3lo ataques a personas de probada excelencia profesional y art=EDstica, sino m=E1s bien constituyen un ataque frontal a los principios que cimientan la cultura, adem=E1s de un craso atropello a las aspiraciones libertarias de un amplio sector de la comunidad art=EDstica tanto nacional como internacional. Es hora de fomentar e incentivar la conciencia mundial entre todos aquellos artistas que creemos en la diversidad y pluralidad del arte, para hacerle frente a atropellos como el que acaba de ocurrir en Chile. Y tiene que ser ahora, ya que con las sofisticadas estrategias de manipulaci=F3n y control en manos de los nuevos inquisidores de la cultura... =A1ma=F1ana podr=EDa resultar demasiado tarde! La intolerancia y el desprecio por la diversidad cultural est=E1n entroniz=E1ndose justamente en aquellos lugares destinados hist=F3ricamente a ser la salvaguarda de esa diversidad. Quiz=E1s por eso mismo es que se despliega un ah=EDnco feroz y mordaz para silenciarlos. =BFY la visi=F3n cr=EDtica y la reflexi=F3n? =BFO es que estamos ante los inicios de un r=E9gimen mundial con una pol=EDtica cultural predominantemente acr=EDtica, ciega y "light" afin con los prop=F3sitos del neoliberalismo? Ante el temor de que los desplantes y la brutalidad del r=E9gimen chileno puedan poner en peligro la suerte de Humberto Nilo, Rosario Letelie= r y Ernesto Mu=F1oz, se inicia esta campa=F1a mundial de repudio a la censura y al ataque personal contra cualquier artista, practique o no el arte correo, en cualquier lugar del planeta, solicitando al mundo entero que env=EDen expresiones de apoyo solidario y rechazo frontal hacia todo tipo de pol=EDtica discriminatoria en materia cultural, para que de alguna manera, sus ofensores no puedan llevar a cabo sus amenaz= as impunemente. Send your messages to by post mail, fax and/or e-mail to: Comunicaciones v=EDa postal, fax y/o correo electr=F3nico a: Humberto Nilo Saavedra Calama 8435, La Cisterna, Santiago, CHILE tel. 5581888 hnilo@hotmail.com Presidente de la Rep=FAblica: Sr. Eduardo Frei Ruiz Tagle Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Palacio de la Moneda, Av. Libertador Bernardo=20 O=B4=B4Higgins, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6387332 Email: webmaster@presidencia.cl Presidente de la C=E1mara de Diputados: Sr. Gutemberg Mart=EDnez Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n , Valpara=EDso, Chil= e. Fax: 6874152 Email: mctoro@congreso.cl =F3/or lgonzale@congreso.cl (secretarias de=20 Gabinetes) Presidente del Senado: Sr. Andr=E9s Zaldivar Larra=EDn Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Pedro Montt s/n, Valpara=EDso, Chile= =2E Fax: 6326603=20 Email: gabinete@congreso.cl =F3/or presenst@congreso.cl (secretarias de= =20 Gabinetes)=20 Rector de la Universidad de Chile: Sr. Luis Riveros Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O=B4Higgins 1058 Fax: 6781012 Email: lriveros@abello.dic.uchile.cl Ministro de Educaci=F3n: Sr. Jos=E9 Pablo Arellano Direcci=F3n postal/postal address: Av. Libertador Bernardo O=B4Higgins 1317= , Santiago,=20 Chile. Fax: 6716164 Email: secremin@neruda.mineduc.cl Agencia UPI: Sr. Rodrigo Bustamante(editor) Direcci=F3n postal/ postal address: Nataniel 47, piso 9, Santiago, Chile. Fax: 6986605 Agencia ORBE: Sra. Marisol Freire(editor) Direcci=F3n postal/ postal address: Phillips 56, oficina 66, Santiago, Chil= e. Fax: 6396826 Clemente Pad=EDn http://www.postypographika.com/menu-en1/paraleng/parpadin/padinbio.htm http://www.concentric.net/~Lndb/padin/1cpcont.htm http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/padinl.htm http://www.artepostal.org.mx/artistas/padin.html http://www.ubuweg.com/vp/index3.html http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Caf=E9/1492/lit-tax.html http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/2721 http://www.abaforum.es/merzmail/lapoesia.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:02:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <19980917114936.4486.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me second this. A suggestion for publishers: in the first issue of Broadway Boogie, my first publishing venture, I made a mistake while typesetting and dropped a few lines of a poem. I of course included a little tag with a correction, but that doesn't really make it right. Since then I have always given my authors proofs of the typeset work (whether in the form of xeroxes or print-outs) before going to press. At 04:49 AM 9/17/98 PDT, you wrote: >Both SUNY Buffalo and the Archive for New Poetry at UCSD have a copy of >an early (1967 or 68) book of mine that was published by Jim >Orsino-Sorcic at Gunrunner Press in Milwaukee. Jim was real young and >new to the small press scene (as was I) when he did the book and he >re-did linebreaks to make it fit his format. I felt totally violated at >the time and still feel today as if I were the subject of an unwilling >collaboration. Must have been how Rexroth felt at Zukofsky's reworking >of his poem in the Objectivist Anthology. > >I've left that work off of my biblio (as you will note on the site at >EPC) and have never considered it _my_ work. I've made a point of >notating both extant copies in those archives and I don't have a copy of >the book myself. > >And I've been much more careful after that. > >I do think that small press people are generally (not entirely) more >careful than those in the larger presses where the flow of >responsibility gets more distributed and less personally felt. But >there's not much you can do about it, ultimately, beyond letting other >people know which presses do that. > > >Ron >ron.silliman@gte.net > > >>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0700 >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>From: Carl Lynden Peters >>Subject: the death of the small press >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works >published >>by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses >that >>quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet >>first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. >perhaps >>my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) >>that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you >on >>whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not >want >>you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just >>didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead >and >>printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. >> >>but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good >>experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do >>with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they >sent >>me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before >>hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics >>. . . that puts the work first. >> >>carl >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980917170223.009a7180@mail.earthlink.net> from "Mark Weiss" at Sep 17, 98 05:02:23 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curious that the Objectivists Anthology should come up in this discussion -- thumbing through the copy in SFU Special Collections yesterday, I discovered what must be the largest "errata" insert I've ever seen! A wonderful found poem! RR ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:29:15 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Textual abuse Content-Type: text/plain Roger, That's not only the same book to which I was referring -- it's probably the same copy!! Ron >Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:14:49 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Roger Farr >Subject: Re: Textual abuse >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Curious that the Objectivists Anthology should come up in this discussion -- thumbing >through the copy in SFU Special Collections yesterday, I discovered what must be >the largest "errata" insert I've ever seen! A wonderful found poem! > >RR > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980917170223.009a7180@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like Mark Weiss, I've made mistakes here. I've missed a correction before. I've also had one occasion of an author who did not want to proofread, and more mistakes ended up in that book. I've never intentionally changed an author's text, though, without consulting her or him, and when I've made design decisions which I felt were not necessarily implied by the text, I've talked to the author about what I was doing and have obtained approval. Still, the mistakes are much regretted, and, like Mark, make me take steps to insure they don't happen again. On the other hand, something I share with Mark is the desire for perfection in our books; and, from that perspective, it seems there are always little things (hopefully not big ones) in each project which make one feel that it could be just a little better. And, Ron, there is also a copy of your Gunrunner Press book in the rare book vaults at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. When I worked there in the late 1970's and early 1980's I found it and I also had trouble recognizing it as your work. So if you're ever in Madison, you might want to stop there and annotate that copy, too. charles At 05:02 PM 9/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Let me second this. >A suggestion for publishers: in the first issue of Broadway Boogie, my >first publishing venture, I made a mistake while typesetting and dropped a >few lines of a poem. I of course included a little tag with a correction, >but that doesn't really make it right. Since then I have always given my >authors proofs of the typeset work (whether in the form of xeroxes or >print-outs) before going to press. > >At 04:49 AM 9/17/98 PDT, you wrote: >>Both SUNY Buffalo and the Archive for New Poetry at UCSD have a copy of >>an early (1967 or 68) book of mine that was published by Jim >>Orsino-Sorcic at Gunrunner Press in Milwaukee. Jim was real young and >>new to the small press scene (as was I) when he did the book and he >>re-did linebreaks to make it fit his format. I felt totally violated at >>the time and still feel today as if I were the subject of an unwilling >>collaboration. Must have been how Rexroth felt at Zukofsky's reworking >>of his poem in the Objectivist Anthology. >> >>I've left that work off of my biblio (as you will note on the site at >>EPC) and have never considered it _my_ work. I've made a point of >>notating both extant copies in those archives and I don't have a copy of >>the book myself. >> >>And I've been much more careful after that. >> >>I do think that small press people are generally (not entirely) more >>careful than those in the larger presses where the flow of >>responsibility gets more distributed and less personally felt. But >>there's not much you can do about it, ultimately, beyond letting other >>people know which presses do that. >> >> >>Ron >>ron.silliman@gte.net >> >> >>>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0700 >>>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >>>From: Carl Lynden Peters >>>Subject: the death of the small press >>>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>> >>>i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works >>published >>>by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses >>that >>>quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet >>>first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. >>perhaps >>>my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) >>>that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you >>on >>>whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not >>want >>>you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just >>>didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead >>and >>>printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. >>> >>>but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good >>>experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do >>>with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they >>sent >>>me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before >>>hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics >>>. . . that puts the work first. >>> >>>carl >>> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:49:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <199809171714.KAA19038@fraser.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Abused: When Norton published the Before Columbus American Book Awards anthology they included a large selection from my "This Passover Or The Next I Will Never Be in Jerusalem," though after delight I was dismayed to learn that they had entirely amputed half of one of the poems I liked the best ("Sweat-Lodge"). Purely a sloppy error -- and apparently they did just as careless work with Ginsberg (a kind of reassurance). The errors due to haste in getting the book out -- so much for getting Nortonized -- but it just ends up more of a heart-breaking mess. I called, wrote, and so far no errata -- just a promise that maybe in the next printing things could be fixed up (I don't believe there's been another printing, but even so I doubt it.). Norton is a grand place, one of the better places and of course so far out of corporate clutches, but I have prefered working with smaller presses (Mercury House is a delight) because most of the time you can exercise far greater care, far more of a collaborative relationship, far more appreciation for the writer's body as well as soul. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:25:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Fred Moten Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" responding in the open as the response is incomplete! Fred Moten has just relocated to New York from U C Santa Barbara -- He is now to be found at the Performance Studies program at NYU -- when he left here, he did not yet have his new email address of phone, but you can probably find him through NYU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:01:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shana Subject: fred moten MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Email addy is predictably-- fred.moten@nyu.edu NYU staff gets perks, apparently--look at *my* email address...speaking of NYU's performance studies, has anyone been in contact with Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett? I read a lot of her ethnography essays for a writing class my freshman year, and I've always wanted to pick her brain. nb. sorry i didn't backchannel, i forgot who asked the question! shana "It's harder to be friends than lovers and you shouldn't try to mix the two Cause if you do it and you're still unhappy then you know that the problem is you" --"divorce song," liz phair ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:52:33 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Textual abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Except for an unexpected indentation problem on my first chapbook no problems in textual concerns with my work. In other areas, there have been doozies tho. Mainly with large publications that have went long beyond their posted reading schedules and have not responded to queries as to whereabouts & then publish the piece, or smaller cliquish magazines that decide not to respond to a submission. Perhaps we need a shit list to mail around. And a list of respectable places as well-- I place kudos to Gian Lombardo at Key Satch(el) and Quarter After Eight for going extra lengths when dealing with pieces which have textual issues. As for publishing others, I have only had one major problem which was in the first full length book. That was when I found out two lines were lopped off of a piece in Chris Stroffolino's Oops due to a Quark X-press page quirk I forgot about (the x in the box thang). Unless people count delays. For the journal, in a few cases I have offered some writers reserved edit options and if they want to change the piece I'll publish it. I've probably made some enemies that way, and possibly through certain rejections, but I'm not going to publish some 3rd or 4th rate piece just because you got books sitting on shelves everywhere. Unlike some places I do just fine fiscally without publishing a name for name's sake. I have always related to James Laughlin's notion that "New Directions books are published _for_ James Laughlin" and hope the concept hasn't passed with him. Let be be finale of seem. Let someone else be the curator of crap. If you don't respect the journal you send to enough to send something decent or your ego is too pasty and fragile (or HUGE) to send more than once, what do you expect? Rejecting things is the same as understanding that when a poem says "I saw God," it's the poem who saw God. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:46:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Boog Lit search Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm looking for an e-, or s-address for Boog Literature. Would greatly appreciate info back channel. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:10:01 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: Waddaya call amuricans? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Prejnar- this is from a long time ago but I just read it i've been so erratic in my new digs here. My recommendation: AmUserIcans It's a good life, if you can get it. --rdl Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > USAmericans > > Unitedstatesians > > gringos > > gringoes (sing., gringao, with a tilda) > > yanks > > how about, "usans" ?? > > ..Try it yorself; it's fun and easy! I use all these all the time myself > in conversation; what rightwingers pretend to think are "awkward" > locutions, are alotta time a fun way to play with language and make a > political point at the same time. It's both rewarding and socially useful > to piss off P.C.-bashers. > > But then, i still refer to my small Sony unit as a walkperson, and a > first-year undergrad as a freshperson... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:33:00 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anone out there have wearabouts of Suzanne Edminster? Tb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:29:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: the death of the small press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1992 I did a book with Singing Horse Press. Gil Ott edited & was a joy to work with. He sent a proof beforehand--which I thought was a given. Now I'm doing one with John Noto's Vatic Hum press, and one of the fun parts is going up to the city & having lunch & looking over the manuscript as we go. Maybe the moral is that good poets make good poetry editors. Dean Taciuch wrote: > >i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works published > >by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses that > >quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet > >first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. perhaps > >my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) > >that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you on > >whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not want > >you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just > >didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead and > >printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. > > > >but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good > >experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do > >with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they sent > >me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before > >hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics > >. . . that puts the work first. > > > >carl > > My experience with Burning Press was outstanding. Luigi (Bob) Drake took > incredibale care with rather particular needs of my mss--some very odd > spacing/arrangement which went completely out of whack when the font and > such were altered. Luigi worked to get the text back to, at times better > than, my original arrangement, and I was kept informed via email and proof > copies every step of the way, including decisions about cover art, > materials, bindings, etc. I couldn't have asked for a more conscientious > and concerned editor. > > I have had only one bad experience, years ago--I don't even remember the > journal, but it was, as I recall, fairly mainstream. They had obviously > scanned my poem in with some OCR software and then barely attempted to > correct the errors caused by it. The proofs were incorrect and my > corrections were ignored. > > So, from my experience, which is extremely limited, it seems that small > presses are more careful--this makes sense to me, anyway > > Dean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:19:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Poetry Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can someone give me the phone number for the Poetry Project in NYC please? Thanxalot, -R.Q. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 03:02:05 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: Poetry Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone give me the number for the Poetry Project in NYC please? I think the number is ten. On the corner. That bad boy of numerology. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:28:22 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: textual abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another writer was in the habit of sending a large batch of haiku - around = seventy (a couple of year=27s work) - to magazines in the expectation two = or three=27d periodically find publication. To her horror, all seventy = ended up in one issue of a small journal publishing poetry, haiku, essays = etc - effectively drying up her material on hand in one fell swoop - = though she wasn=27t to learn this til a contributor=27s copy arrived in = the mail.=20 Communication gone astray? Ralph Wessman Hobart ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:21:01 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Kimball Subject: The East Village, Volume Three Comments: To: E-List suppressed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp The East Village Poetry Web Access in North America: . In Japan: . Here's how Volume Three stacks up. ___ Alice Notley [2 Poems] ___ Charles North [3 Poems] ___ John Lancia [2 Images] ___ Brian Stefans [Zepplins] ___ Susan Rothenberg [3 Images] ___ Hiroaki Sato [The Poem of 1999] ___ Matt Levy [A Blank Dedication] ___ Charley Shively [5 Poems] ___ Young Sook Hong [2 Images] ___ Vincent Katz [3 Poems] ___ Maciej Toporowicz [Images from Lure] ___ Sheila Murphy [As Dance Is] ___ Michael Magee [2 Poems] ___ Jon Huffman [2 Images] ___ Tadashi Kondo [7 Haiku] ___ Coral Hull [Rural Victoria] ___ Douglas Oliver [4 Poems] ___ Paul Violi [In the Houseof Messer Sconforto] ___ Cooper Esteban [4 Poems] ___ Forrest Gander [3 Poems] ___ Claire Jervert [Unitled Image] Audio Files: ___ Tony Towle [4 Poems] ___ Forrest Gander [3 Poems] ___ Charley Shively [Stonelicks] Web Textcraft: ___ Jim Andrews [Seattle Drift] __________________________ Previous volumes are still online. Volume One: [Harry Mathews; David Trinidad; Nada Gordon; Andrea Brady; Forrest Gander; Alan Sondheim; Kent Johnson; Brice Marden; and lots of others] Volume Two: [Tony Towle; Carrie Etter; Gary Sullivan; Alex Katz; Peter Ganick; Yayoi Kusama; John Tranter; Cid Corman; Billy Little; Bob Arnold; and more.] If you would like to access Volumes One and Two, select "Other Volumes" above the table of contents for Volume Three. __________________________ Coming next: Poetries of Canada -- a special edition of The East Village. More soon. (Apologies for any cross-posts.) Thanks. __________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:41:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Long time ago I heard the story that when Olson found a typo in his printed text he enjoyed it & saw it as a leap into another possible poem. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Reincarnation in Congress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "We have reason to believe that top aides that have access to the Oval Office have been orchestrating a conspiracy to intimidate members of Congress by using their past lives." -- Tom DeLay Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:11:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Tucson events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a few announcements from Tucson Tomorrow night, Saturday, September 19 from 7:30 to 10:00 pm, at Orts Theatre of Dance, the grand opening of its new rehearsal space, poetry readings by a lot of poets, including myself. Others featured include David Beddell, Rea Davis, Alison Deming, Jami Macarty, Rita Magdaleno, Jeri McAndrews, Steve Orlen, Lusia Slomkowska, Richard Tavenner -- and several others. The entire weekend is a fundraiser for Orts,and donations will be requested. The space is at 121 E. Seventh St., which is Seventh St., just off Seventh Ave., near the Small Planet Bakery. Tonight, Friday, September 18, W.S. Merwin is at the U of Arizona. And for those attracted to the best contemporary dance in the southwest, the Orts dance weekend features Arthur Miscione and choreography by Beth Braun. Also special performances by Philip Quintas, Rusty Cline, and Orts artistic director Anne Bunker. Admission tonight is $6 adults, $2 for children under 15.This is also at 121 E. Seventh St. POG is still getting its schedule settled, but we do know: Tuesday, October 13 Dinnerware Art Gallery 135 E. Congress St., Tucson Tony Lopez, poet Nancy Solomon, video artist November 17, Tuesday Dinnerware Douglas Barbour & Stephen Scobie, poetry & sound poetry Barbara Penn, installation artist December 5, Saturday Eli Goldblatt, poet others to be named site still to be determined more updates to come later charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:36:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A poem in my book _Rubbing Torsos_ begins "The dead toy gaily with us" and ends "and broke all my dead toys." However, when I read through the sheets at Ithaca House before binding I found "all my old toys." I have to admit a secret delight in the resulting erratum slip that reads: "For _old_ read _dead_" John Latta On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, George Bowering wrote: > Long time ago I heard the story that when Olson found a typo in his printed > text he enjoyed it & saw it as a leap into another possible poem. > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:26:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Les Plooster Subject: Re: Looking for a Teachable Text Comments: To: arshile@earthlink.net I have used the section at the back of M.H. Abrams _A Glossary of Literary Terms_ with some success. The entries are concise and list the more prominent works in each specific area. I've been using the 6th edition which is getting a bit dated, perhaps, but for an intro style undergraduate course, I think it covers the bases quite well. Les Plooster -----Original Message----- From: Mark Salerno To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, September 14, 1998 3:50 PM Subject: Looking for a Teachable Text >To All Of You School Teachers Out There: > >This semester I'm teaching an intro to lit course that includes a >theory/criticism component. The previously-assigned text for this course >has a chapter on Structuralism & Poststructuralism, the subheadings of >which include "Russian Formalism," "Semiotics or Semiology," "French >Structuralism" and "Poststructuralism." All in fifteen easy pages. >Needless to say, this chapter is "introductory" to the point of being >useless, so I'd appreciate hearing from anyone (by backchannel) who can >recommend a better survey of the terrain--perhaps an essay or chapter, >rather than an entire monograph. Preferably something that would be >comprehensible to a freshman college student. > >Thanks in advance. > >A fellow school teacher, > >Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:14:39 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Jargon books Dear Pierre, Thanks for sending along the St. Lazaire Press books. Those books begin to give me a sense of the many directions that emanate from Robert Kelly.... And Tom Meyer's work is wonderful--sadly, one of far too many well kept secrets in American poetry. Is there something I can send in return? Do you have a copy of _Early Days of the Lang Dynasty" (Meow Press, 1996)? Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Oopportunity: Hypertext Competition (forward) In-Reply-To: <199809180710.QAA16938@taro.miyazaki-med.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" via RHIZOME Digest newsleter: http://www.rhizome.org >+opportunity+ >1. Alt-X: Alt-X/trAce International Hypertext Competition > >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > >1. > >Date: 8.27.98 >From: Alt-X (golam@grammatron.com) >Subject: Alt-X/trAce International Hypertext Competition > >INTERNATIONAL HYPERTEXT COMPETITION > >Alt-X and trAce are pleased to announce their first International >Hypertext Competition. We offer a single prize of One Thousand English >Pounds for the best hypertext site on the web. > >Deadline for entries: December 31st 1998 > >What is hypertext? > >Ted Nelson, who invented the term hypertext over 30 years ago, described >it as "non-sequential writing--text that branches and allows choices to >the reader, best read at an interactive screen. As popularly conceived, >this is a series of text chunks connected by links which offer the >reader different pathways." We prefer to see it as "multi-sequential" >writing but are generally comfortable with his description here. Also, >we're open to work that integrates other media as well (sound, images, >Java, etc.) but it should be primarily text-based and easily accessible >from the average web-surfer's home-computer. > >What kinds of hypertext entries are you looking for? > >First of all, they have to be web-based. On the entry form, please be >sure to include the URL (web address) so that we know where to look for >your project. Hypertexts submitted on disk are not acceptable. We will >be judging the entries against the following criteria: > >+ High quality writing > >+ Excellent overall conceptual design and hyperlink structure > >+ Ease of use for the average web-surfer (if we can't read it on our >home machines then we'll just move on to the next one!) > >To enter, point your web browser to: > >http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/comp.html > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:08:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: nyfa grant seminar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On tuesday, september 22nd at 6pm the Poetry Project in conjunction with the New York Foundation for the Arts will be hosting a free seminar on Artists' Fellowships. This year NYFA offers awards in Computer Arts, Crafts, Film, Nonfiction Literature, Performance Art/Mulitdisciplinary Forms, Poetry, Printmaking/Drawing/Artists' Books, and Sculpture. The information seminar will address questions about the application process and also inform artists about funding opportunities. For more information about the Fellowship seminar or to receive an application, please call NYFA at (212)366-6900. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:10:37 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Jargon books Oops. Apologies for sending my e-mail meant for Pierre Joris to the entire List.... Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:15:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Linda Russo Subject: qry: "Language" spec. issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > does anyone recall a "language poetry" issue of the Paris Review, or am I > mad? also, were there other academic/mainstream quarterlies/journals to put > out their "language" special issue, or an issue on avant garde or > experimental or innovative poetry more generally?? > > backchannel please as I'm "no mail". thanks. > * * * * Linda Russo lvrusso@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:58:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Segue/NYC Saurday reading series (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Segue Foundation=92s New York City reading series has moved. The series formerly held at Here (and for almost twenty years before that at= the Ear Inn) has moved to a new bar called Double Happiness and will take= place on Saturdays from 4:00 to 6:00 pm beginning October 3rd. Please take careful note of the new time. Readings will begin punctually. Double Happiness is located at 173 Mott Street, just south of Broome. a $4 contribution goes to the readers. Segue @ Double Happiness October & November Readings=09 Saturdays @ 4pm Oct 3: Rob Fitterman, Liz Fodaski for the season's kickoff at double happiness : a double happiness happening: Two of the series=92 all-time most together coordinators: Rob Fitterman,= eagerly awaiting the publication of Book 1 of Metropolis, 1-5, from Sun &= Moon. Metropolis 16-20 has recently appeared (Edge Books). Also forthcoming= is a collaboration with visual artist Dirk Rowntree entitled cedars estate.= Rob is the editor/publisher of Object and p o e t s c o o p; Liz Fodaski,= editor/publisher of Torque, which recently issued a collaboration with= Object. Recent work has appeared in Big Allis and Lingo. Liz lives and= teaches in New York. Oct 10: Book Party come celebrate the publication of Close Listening: Poetry and the Performed= Word, a collection of original essays edited by Charles Bernstein, from= Oxford University Press. There will be talk, discussion, and performance= with Johanna Drucker, Bob Perelman, Nick Piombino, Bruce Andrews, Charles= Bernstein. =20 =20 Oct 17: Jena Osman, James Sherry Jena Osman, a visiting assistant professor of English and Creative Writing= at Ursinus College, co-edits Chain with Juliana Spahr. Her poem "The= Periodic Table as Assembled by Dr. Zhivago, Oculist" was recently published= in French translation (Format Am=E9ricain) and is currently being turned= into a CD-ROM by Geoffrey Wilson. James Sherry is the author of 10 books of= poetry and criticism, most recently Our Nuclear Heritage (Sun & Moon) and= Four For (Meow Press). He is the editor/publisher of Roof Books and= president of the Segue Foundation. Oct 24: Douglass Rothschild, Stephen Rodefer DglssN.Rthscjhld--Loud mouthed, gerrymandering snob to the masses, Mr.= Rthscjhld burst onto the scene with his bad spelling and splender blasted= poems in the first . . . (Please feel free to fill in the Biographical= Information which will make you most likely to attend this reading.) Some= hits among Stephen Rodefer's many great works include Villon, Four= Lectures, France and England, and most recently Erasers. His fine teaching= and fine living are an international source of inspiration. Oct 31: Halloween Gala Reading Emerged as well as up and coming writers associated with City College's= Creative Writing Program. Joe Eliot, Dan Machlin, Carla Massey, Carrie= Tocci, Justine Fitzgerald, &&&. Nov 7 @ 2pm: Bob Harrison, Joe Amato=20 N.B.: Due to the Hannha Weiner 70th birthday event later the same day (at= 4pm at the Poetry Project), this reading will begin at 2:00 PM. Please be= prompt! Bob Harrison lives and works in Milwaukee, WI. His chapbooks= include Odor Ring Inversions of Semi-Aquatic Salamanders, Split Poems, and= Broken English (Meow Press). New work is forthcoming in Big Allis. He is= editor, with Andrew Levy, of Crayon. Joe Amato is the author of Symptoms of= a Finer Age (Viet Nam Generation), and, situated somewhere between the= world of print and cyberspace, Bookend--Anatomies of a Virtual Self (SUNY= Press, 1997). He teaches at the Illinois Institute of Technology in= Chicago. Nov 14: Rae Armantrout, Marjorie Welish Rae Armantrout has published six books of poems, including Necromance (Sun &= Moon), Made to Seem (Sun & Moon), and writing the plot about sets (a Chax= chapbook). True has just come out from Atelos, and The Pretext is= forthcoming next year. Armantrout teaches writing at U.C. San Diego.= Marjorie Welish=92s latest chapbook is forthcoming in the spring from= Paradigm Press. She has been awarded a Howard Foundation Fellowship for= 1998-99. Nov 21: Sam Lipsyte, Marianne Shaneen Sam Lipsyte=92s fiction has appeared in The Quarterly, Open City, Nerve, and= Aedon. He is senior editor of Feed. Marianne Shaneen is a poet/fiction= writer/performer. Recent work is forthcoming in Crayon. Nov 28: Thanksgiving Weekend--No Reading =0C =09 Dec 5: John Ashbery, Peter Gizzi John Ashbery=92s 1976 Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror won the Pulitzer= Prize, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and the National Book Award.= His most recent books include Wakefulness, Can You Hear, Bird, And the= Stars Were Shining, and Hotel Lautr=E9amont. Peter Gizzi=92s newest book is= Artificial Heart (Burning Deck, 1998). He is also the author of Hours of= the Book (Zasterle, 1994), Music for Films (Paradigm, 1992), and Periplum= (Avec, 1992). Dec 12: Eleni Sikelianos, Jessica Grim, Norma Cole Eleni Sikelianos=92 most recent book is The Book of Tendons. The Blue Coat= and The Lover=92s Numbers are forthcoming. She is the recipient of a= National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship and Gertrude Stein Awards for= Innovative American Writing, and currently co-edits The Poetry Project= Newsletter. Jessica Grim=92s books of poetry include Fray (1998), Locale= (1995), and The Inveterate Life (1990). She co-edited Big Allis from= 1989-1997. She lives in Oberlin, Ohio where she is a reference librarian= and occasional instructor in creative writing. Norma Cole=92s writing,= considered =93a work of great invention and celebration,=94 =93ruptured,= turbulent,=94 has been translated into French, Italian, Japanese,= Portuguese, and Spanish. Her most recent books are Moira, Contrafact, and= Desire & Its Double. She lives in San Francisco. Dec 19: Brenda Coultas, Shawn Killian Brenda Coultas is currently co-editor of The Poetry Project Newsletter. Her= work has appeared in The World and Sycamore Review, and she played a mirror= in the East Village film Temporary America. Shawn Killian has a new= Talisman House chapbook forthcoming (Fall, 1998) entitled Feint by Feint.= He lives in Catskill, New York and Manhattan. Dec 26 & Jan 2: Holiday Weekends -- No Readings Jan 9: Anselm Berrigan, Jordan Davis Anselm Berrigan was born in Chicago, IL. He was educated at P.S. 19 on 11th= Street. He is the author of Integrity and Dramatic Life. Right now he has= $1.50 in his wallet. Jordan Davis was born at Mt. Sinai. His poems include= =93A Little Gold Book=94 and =93Poem on a Train.=94 With Anna Malmude he= hosts Poetry City. Jan 16: Andrew Joron, Craig Watson Andrew Joron is the author of The Removes (Hard Press, 1998) and Science= Fiction (Pantograph Press, 1992). He is also the translator of the German= philosopher Ernst Bloch=92s Literary Essays (Stanford University Press,= 1998). He resides in Berkeley, CA, where he works as an academic= proofreader. Craig Watson is the author of eight published books including:= After Calculus, Picture of the Picture of the Image in the Glass, and, most= recently from Zasterle Press, Reason. Hard Press will publish Free Will in= 1999. He lives in Rhode Island. Jan 23: Jackson Mac Low, Kevin Davies Jackson Mac Low has been getting his Poetry Reading Poems into the computer= and magazines (e.g. Lingo) and writing an extensive series of poems= interacting with works of Gertrude Stein. His Two Plays: The Marrying= Maiden and Verdurous Sanguinaria is forthcoming this winter from Sun &= Moon. Kevin Davies lives in Brooklyn. His book, Pause Button, was published= by Vancouver=92s Tsunami Editions in 1992. A new collection is forthcoming= from Aerial/Edge Press. Jan 30: Katy Lederer, John High Katy Lederer is the editor of Explosive Magazine. Her work appears currently= in Proliferation, Arshile, and The Harvard Review. Essays and reviews have= appeared in The Chicago Review and the St. Mark=92s Poetry Project= Newsletter. John High is the author of Ceremonies, Sometimes Survival, and= the lives of thomas: episodes and prayers. The Sasha Poems (A Book of= Fables), written to his daughter, was just published by Ex Nihilo Press,= which will also publish his Book of Mistranslations in 1998. He is a= translator of Russian poetry and the founder and former editor of Five= Fingers Review. Please support our new series and join us for our grand opening reading on= October 3! Readings will begin promptly at 4. Doors will open at 3:30 for those who= want to start drinking and schmoozing early. Coordinators for this series are Chet Wiener, Stacy Doris, Liz Fodaski,= Andrew Levy, & Charles Borkhuis. Continuing support of this series is provided by the Segue Foundation.=20 Funding is made possible by support from the Literature Program of the New= York State Council on the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:53:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Looking for a Teachable Text Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark et al, The best theory/criticism anthology that I've seen is Davis Richter's THE CRITICAL TRADITION, which starts with Plato and runs right up to the near present (all in an easy 1500 pages). He provides failry concise overviews, and then often substantial excperts from the theorists he includes. Of course, it's very canonical (as is to be expected from any such book), but that's only to say that it provides a fairly solid introduction to the major trends in Western Lit. Crit. Structuralism and Poststructuralism are divided into two chapters (15 theorists), and offer a decent account of semiotics, deconstrcution, etc... Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: Re: Essay: Digital Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field In-Reply-To: <35F5DCE7.BCE6F6C9@speakeasy.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jim got the first essay -- way cool and will study further -- but the second returned a "no here" message -- been moved? bill At 06:42 PM 9/8/98 -0700, you wrote: >At Web del Sol's Perihelion site is my newly published essay "Digital >Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field" >(http://webdelsol.com/Perihelion/jimarticle.htm) > >and "Political Dimensions of Langu(im)age" >(http://www.webdelsol.com/bbs/arts/arts.cgi?read=37), which is really a >part of the essay, but was too late for the editor's deadline. > >Regards, >Jim Andrews > >-- >V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E >http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PaperBrainPress http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:43:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re Re: Digital Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > jim > > got the first essay -- way cool and will study further -- but the second > returned a "no here" message -- been moved? > > bill The second part of the essay (Political Dimensions of Langu(im)age) is now a part of the text of the main essay (Digital Langu(im)age--language and image as objects in a field), at http://www.webdelsol.com/Perihelion/jimarticle.htm, so I deleted the posting to the message board of webdelsol of Political Dimensions. I finished writing The Political Dimensions after the Perihelion deadline had passed and the first part was already published. Jennifer Ley, the editor of Perihelion, had to take some time to read and incorporate the new material into the essay. Which she did. To her credit. If it were the print world, I'd a simply been out of luck. I had to argue hard for this late inclusion. But I think it's one of the more important parts of the essay. It is the second to last section. I wrote it as soon as I understood it. Uruguay's Clemente Padin helped me understand it... Regards, Jim Andrews ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:10:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Attack against artists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Christina, I have posted at http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews/vispo/clement.html a Web version of the message Clemente Padin, Irving Weiss, and Viktor Todorovic sent concerning the dismissals of the Chileans for their involvement in the Mail Art show you seem to mention below. I think that there are probably a lot of people who would like to support the call for protest Clemente articulated, but who feel that details concerning the art exhibited in Santiago, Chile, and the events surrounding the dismissals have not been provided. In part, Clemente says: "In response to the systematic and offensive political persecution and intolerance that for years have been going on at the University of Chile's Fine Art School (actions promoted and spurred by reactionary, totalitarian and pro-Pinochet sectors) on March 98, the Mail Art Exhibit "Stop: liberty, diversity and pluralism" was held at Santiago's Museum of Contemporary Art, in defense against constant attacks by sectors in power. As a result, Humberto Nilo, the Director of the U. of Chile's Fine Art School and organizer of the event, was dismissed from his position along with the Museum's Director and the Curator of the exhibit: Mrs. Rosario Letelier and Mr. Ernesto Munioz." I have emailed Humberto Nilo for more information, but received no response. Can you provide more information? Are there works on the Web from the show that people can view? What was the reception of the show otherwise? What triggered these events? I need more information. Can you send digital images of some of the art to me so I can post it on my Web site, and others can too? It seems to me an important thing for the people on the poetics listserver, very important. Regards, Jim Andrews I emailed > Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:08:21 -0500 > From: Christina Fairbank Chirot > Subject: Attack to artists (fwd) > > Re the recent notes on events in Latin America and the Exhibition which > Hans Braumuller is organizing--the following is of great importance-- > =09I participated in the STOP exhibtion mentioned below--it was held > in the Museum of Modern Art--Clemente Padin sent me some photos of works > of his and mine and others--it was a major event--a large > participation--we had a great deal to thank Humberto for --it is very > disturbing to hear this news of his and others' firing for mounting this > show--I hope as many of as possible write to the addresses below-- > =09remember the attack on artists can come soon to your town--if not > already! > =09por la escritura en libertad! > =09for writing in freedom! > --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:46:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Looking for a Teachable Text In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Stephen, I just checked, and Amazon lists THE CRITICAL TRADITION, 1989 edition, as out-of-print, and the revised second edition (1997) as only available in hard covers, for $63.98 -- probably not a good price for students, nor for me. Do you have any other information about this, as I have known Amazon to be wrong about out-of-print books before, but usually when they are small press publications. charles At 04:53 PM 9/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >Mark et al, > >The best theory/criticism anthology that I've seen is Davis Richter's THE >CRITICAL TRADITION, which starts with Plato and runs right up to the near >present (all in an easy 1500 pages). He provides failry concise overviews, >and then often substantial excperts from the theorists he includes. Of >course, it's very canonical (as is to be expected from any such book), but >that's only to say that it provides a fairly solid introduction to the >major trends in Western Lit. Crit. Structuralism and Poststructuralism are >divided into two chapters (15 theorists), and offer a decent account of >semiotics, deconstrcution, etc... > >Stephen Cope > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:16:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Tills, are you still out there? Or, does anyone have his e-mail. Backchannel, por favor. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:31:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Beyond the Sun & Moon Sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just had the great pleasure of receiving Sun & Moon Press's two most recent books: Joan Retallack's How to Do Things with Words and Myung Mi Kim's Dura, both of which I have been eagerly awaiting. I keep thinking there must be some magic to Douglas Messerli's publishing: how can he do so many books? But I also know that there is no magic, and that Sun & Moon lives within the same dire poetry publishing economy that many of us on this list are all too familiar. While at crucial points in its history, Sun & Moon did benefit from NEA and foundation grants, that time seems more and more remote. And a press like this, without the kind independent resources that have sustained some other literary publishers of a comparable scale to Sun & Moon, is dependent on sales for its survival. So when Sun & Moon sent those lists of $4 poetry books last week, it seemed to me that buying multiple copies of those books might be the ideal way to support Sun & Moon, to ensure that it is able to keep publishing books like the ones on the lists. While Sun & Moon is actually and officially a nonprofit organization, fund raising by the press has been negligible. But the sale, it seems to me, offers a great way of making a contribution to Sun & Moon -- and, in the bargain, getting books for oneself and also books to give to friends. It's a little like what Peter Pan says about Tinkerbell: if we want a press like Sun & Moon to survive, we all have to sprinkle a little fairy dust now, in the form of bulk buying of those $4 books. That may be the only kind of magic that works -- the kind that comes from readers who want these books and want more of them. For those who want to take another look at the list of books available, check out the Poetics List archive for this month under messages from Douglas (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html) or write to Douglas Messerli direct (at djmess@CINENET.NET) and I am sure he will return your request with a copy of the list. (The Sun & Moon website it at http://www.sunmoon.com ) Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: from "George Bowering" at Sep 18, 98 01:41:54 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Long time ago I heard the story that when Olson found a typo in his printed > text he enjoyed it & saw it as a leap into another possible poem. i guess when that works it works. some typos are just typos and it's hard to find the trope. and some ideas are better than others. Ron, your notion of dis-owning the poem when this happens gives me some comfort. i think you are right, those poems of mine that were published without any consultation or dialogue are not mine. c. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:08:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: 5 Corners reading/Philadelphia Comments: To: Kjvarrone@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The 5 Corners Poetry Series is pleased to announce its first reading for the Fall 1998 season (Please note the NEW DAY and TIME): SATURDAY, September 26th 7 p.m. Pattie McCarthy & Heather Fuller at GEORGE'S 5th Street Cafe (Corner of 5th and Gaskill Streets, between Lombard and South Streets, Center City Philadelphia) Pattie McCarthy's chapbook OCTAVES was recently published by ixnay press (1998); another chapbook CHORAGUS is forthcoming from Potes & Poets (Spring 1999); she also has poems forthcoming in COMBO (issue #2) and ixnay. She is one of the editors of the Philadelphia-based forthcoming magazine P H, and co- founder of BeautifulSwimmer Press. She currently teaches at Drexel University and splits time between Philadelphia and New York. Heather Fuller is the author of the poetry collection PERHAPS THIS IS A RESCUE FANTASY (Aeriel/Edge 1997) and the forthcoming collection C RATION DOG & PONY (Like Books 1998). Her play MADONNA FATIGUE is forthcoming from Meow Press (1998), as is her chapbook BEGGAR (Situations 1998). She received her MA from George Mason University and is currently the literary editor of The Washington Review. She has worked with anti-poverty groups in Washington DC for the past 7 years. She also teaches writing and drama at a center for homeless people living with HIV. In addition to the readings, we will be having a book sale, featuring work by the poets reading, as well as other small press issue from the Philadelphia area. If you have chapbooks or other small press items to sell, please bring them to the readings. For information, directions, or to join the 5 Corners emailing list, please email Kjvarrone@aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:28:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Sales pitch Comments: To: Will Rowe , Valerie Soar , Peter Daniels , Karolina Tworkowska , ian vickers , Diego de Jesus , David Miller , Bob Perelman , Alison K M Mark , british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for cross-posting * Writers Forum announces its seven hundred and fiftieth publication. It is WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY co-edited by Bob Cobbing and Lawrence Upton. 156 pages featuring 42 poets ISBN 0 86162 750 4 Price L6.50 plus postage. Preface by Bob Cobbing + "Word Score Utterance Choreography" by Lawrence Upton and "A thing or two upon the page" by Robert Sheppard + selected book list. The printer has undertaken to get it done in time for a launch on 24th October. Payments to New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 8QT. Payments in sterling please. NB We are hoping to organise a better way for people to be able to order it Below is the text of Upton's piece, stripped of its formatting to ensure everyone can read it. * * * * * * * * * * WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY What is a poem? Don't answer that. What isn't a poem? Read on. I assume that there was utterance before writing. I assume that some, at least, of that utterance was pleasurable - pleasurable for the utterer or the auditor or both... There are birds singing in my garden - a thrush on a stout high branch is stringing complexities of notes in what seems to me joy. Joy in birds may be different to joy in humans, though I doubt it, but I am sure that it is there in birds, that birdsong and the utterance of other creatures often goes beyond mere assertion. Surely the same use of voice has always been with Homo Sapiens even if I am wrong about the rest of the creatures. To say that an act of utterance is, perhaps firstly, pleasurable is not to deny that it is communication as well... The instigation and communication of pleasure is a primary act; if we all spent more time making pleasure, if only for ourselves, we might undermine each other and ourselves less. And then we had writing, scripts of one sort or another. Is script a notational system for utterance? I think that often it is not, because it is inadequate for the purpose; but it may give an indication of what the utterance may be. However, the performance, if it is to follow the script, requires intelligent informed reading. What we can say of any script is that it is other than the utterance referring to it. A script is partly a hyper-utterance system. With a script, we can, to some extent, escape death: Ovid, dead 2000 years, speaks to me often though the signal to noise ratio is poor; and, of course, I cannot speak back. With a script we may begin to simulate our presence with another. We may read what others we have never met have written. But scripts, as I have said, are limited. Timbre is lost. Accent is problematic. Tone and intention may only be indicated by elaborate and unwieldy means. Over time, pronunciation and stress change and words' meanings are modified. Body language is lost. So much of our received and transmitted information is non-verbal and/or visual, should we not make use of non-verbal and visual material in our poetry? Why not modify and extend the written language / script / notational system? And, at the same time, why not perform similar operations upon our concept of what constitutes the spoken language? Let us recognise the importance of what we say which does not use recognisable words, grunts, sighs and so on, gestures and less easily perceivable signals. A film camera extends it and we are happy, and the wiser for it. Our language, English, Spanish, French or whatever it is, is only part of our total potential utterance. As we extend our concept of language to include all the possibilities of our utterance, let's allow pictures. Illustrations if you like, but, better than that, perhaps the texts can be bade to tell their own pictures. Evocatively and pictographically. Prompts. Doodles. Cartoons. Some visual poets work in that area, extending meaning and the means of meaning, but limiting the performed utterance to the process of reading. There is much fine work of that sort. Emboldening, italicising and underlining are widely acknowledged to have significance in linear texts though many poets eschew it. I wonder why? Musicians make their lives easier by writing instructions on scores, extending the notational system. Why shouldn't poets? Can that basic formatting not be expanded? Larger type, louder voice? What about type at an angle to the vertical? What is the difference between the hand-written text and the printed or typed text? What difference does a deliberate smudge make to a text? What might be done with variations in the grey scale? What might be done with variations in the grey scale! The text... does the text have to be a text? I read that in Mecca the sky line seen from certain angles writes There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet. I hope that's true. The text could be the room around you. The text might include other performers. The text could be your own body. Alphabet soup anyone? About 100 years ago, Picasso and Braque saw this from another similar angle and put words into their fields of vision. Why should not poetry contain painterly material? If poetry can be set to music, then music can be held (as you hold someone you love rather than as you hold a prisoner) in a poem, and be, in certain cases, inseparable from it. Hypertext demonstrates the viability of this idea; but this work, whatever it is, and among other things it is visual poetry, has been available to us as a possibility all the time; and here is a whole book of it. A hole book, because some of the work it contains is only partly in the book; the rest of such works remains potential, in the book, and must be performed beyond the book to be realised, made kinetic. Not all the poets in this book would agree with what I am saying. There's glory for you. I see no reason to be limited to words alone in poetry any more than we should limit ourselves to particular pronunciations of words. It depends what kind of communication you want. It depends to what degree you want to tell the linguistic sea not to flow... Our utterance of texts from the past is to a greater or lesser extent guess work because we can no longer hear the original utterance; we only have some marks on pages and walls and our deductive ingenuity. In translation, we may compromise much of the sound / music for the sense and vice versa. I do not want to make non-verbal expression mandatory for poets, merely to extend the permission for such use to take place. A fellow poet who had witnessed a performance in which I participated remarked that he had at various times made all the sounds I had made; but only, as he put it, in the bedroom; and, he went on, it had not occurred to him, nor did he feel ready, to make such sounds before an audience. I took this as praise and as an encouragement to persist. Our repertoire of non-verbal sounds is extremely interesting. Analysis of it would, I am sure, support the belief that pain and pleasure, and love and hatred, have close kinship. I do not think that there is an equivalence between any set of marks and any set of sounds except one that we impose. Little is further from my desire than to propose a crude synaesthetic system. The audible utterance and the visible mark / gesture are signs of our responses and signs to which we may respond, no more. Performance of the same text may vary quite widely from day to day and performer to performer. To some this might be seen as a weakness or failure, but I welcome it. Let us give poetry, from those who wish to, physicality and the frailties and/or variety of physicality. The variation between performances of visual texts is likely to be far wider than one would expect of a linear text... I mean of course a verbal text. Or do I mean a lexical text. What is the distinction? A microphone will capture it all whether or not the utterances are in the lexicon; and we have far less trouble with new (to us) non-dictionary exclamations than we do with words the dictionary knows and we do not. In going beyond the dictionary and widely accepted conventional forms, we go nearer to some extent to communication, being able to ignore the Babel obstacles. It depends what manner of communication you wish to effect. I could bog you down with definitions and precise terminology here; instead I am underlining words on which I might be terminologically attacked, and some words on which an attack is long overdue, and leave you to read the dictionary when you have time! With visual poetry you don't have to start at the top left hand corner of a page and work down towards the bottom right hand corner. You just start, not anywhere, somewhere. It's like not having to stay on the pavement. It's like being where you want be when you want to be - though as a maker you will soon find that the visual poem inflicts its own constraints; you do not have freedom. But you can walk through old walls and sometimes hear and see the sounds rising from the page and hear what is marked there without it being performed. Visual poetry encourages us to be calligraphic with our voices and bodies, and somewhat musical with what we see, making the performance at once more abstract and more concrete than a performance based on linear lexical text. Much of what is going on here may not be writing as that is often understood. It is not painting or drawing, but it is near them. And so with music. And so with much else. It may be writing. If we don't have its name yet, so much the better. No one has dominion over it; it has no nationality; but it is international; In the beginning was the word for a continuation is an utterance; it is that it is What is a poem Each editor brought a notional list of poets to the making of this book. Perhaps it was a list of prejudices though I would prefer to think of it as a list of hypotheses. I was pleased at how easy it was to agree to a list in common. Subsequently there were additions to that list; but always our intention was to make available to users of this book another insight. This book is not intended to define a school nor to provide you with a list of the best or most significant poets. It may do one or even both, but that would be a complete accident. There are no real bests, only lists of them; and significance can be a beam in the eye. In this book is a selection of poets chosen to give a sense of the variety of approaches that is possible. We had very limited space and could not include all that we enjoy. Faced with the question, put to us sometimes by audiences and generated by our own deliberations, What is the relationship between the marks on the page and the sounds one makes when reading the page, here, in this book, is an answer, a set of answers, providing the beginnings of an answer. Use this book to increase your understanding of this kind of work and then, if you wish, build your own pantheon. If this book introduces you to poets, then so much the better, because many included here are too little known in this country... (Personally, beyond the aims stated, I am most unhappy that we have been unable to locate the Swedish poet Bengt-Emil Johnson for whose work on the page and in the ear I have the greatest respect. He has contributed immensely to the extension and enrichment of poetry and I regret that it has not been possible to demonstrate that here..) A potential bibliography is huge. We offer instead a handful of references, believing that they are sufficient to whet your appetite and start you searching out your own sources of information. It is the editors hope that you will pay attention to what it is the makers themselves say they are doing, rather than relying on what others say, including us. Try to hear recordings and see performances. Experiment with the techniques yourself because by doing so you will appreciate the richness and complexity they can generate. Lawrence Upton (c) Lawrence Upton, 1998 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:04:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <199809191940.MAA09804@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think a little on line symposium on editorial practice might be a good idea, and I'll kick it off. But first, a story: In the early 70s, when I was editing Broadway Boogie, I made it a practice to send xeroxes of the photocopy to the writers for them to sign off on before going to press. After I received them back I printed an edition (I think it was number 2) and sent the contributors their copies, upon which I received a frantic phone call from one of them, insisting that I scrap the entire press run: he had found a typo. It seems that I had mistakenly typed one letter for another, fortuitously or not changing one of his words for another that fit plausibly into the poem. I apologized and reminded him that he had signed off on the copy. The best I could do would be to slip in an errata sheet. But frankly, I told him, you might want to consider my mistake--although I would never on purpose change your work without your consent, I think it improves the poem. He wasn't mollified, and he steamed off to his friends all around NY. All of them looked at it and said, without exception, you know, this improves the poem. He was chagrined, but kept the error, and when the poem saw print again in a book it was still there. This is not an add for mistakes. I've made more than enough that I won't allude to even obliquely. Here's the way I work. I'm real impatient with primadonnas. Anyone who sends me a manuscript is forewarned that I'm a very active editor. If I want a book I accept it as is, but that doesn't stop me from respectfully making the best case I can for what I hope will make it better. This follows from my assumption that the poem once on the page is no longer a part of the poet's psyche but an object to be shaped. Thus far all of Junction's books have been in this sense collaborative, and poets who weren't at first fond of having me comment insistently on their work have by and large incorporated my suggestions or noted the problem I had spotted and have provided a better solution. And they have all been pleased with the outcome. In no case, by the by, am I taking credit for the work--it has to be damned good in my estimation for me to accept it as is in the first place, and my tinkering is just that. And I think I learn at least as much from the process as the poets do. It's the reason I do the press to begin with--this, and the exercise of the craft of bookmaking, are what's in it for me. Often poets present a larger book than I can print or than the work merits--very few of us produce 150 good pages of our best verse every two or three years, and many poets, myself included, winnow the work exceedingly slowly if they get no input. I of course enforce page limits were necessary, but some poets have insisted that I take an active part in determining the final content of the book and the order of poems as well. As a courtesy to the poets I share text and cover design and jacket copy with them. But this is my area as publisher. I take these things very seriously, but I'm also very aware that they are first and foremost a form of advertizing. I started out concerned that this process might cost me some friendships. Instead, it's strengthened existing friendships and created some strong new ones. In fact, the dialogue with the author usually becomes a very intimate exchange. At 12:40 PM 9/19/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Long time ago I heard the story that when Olson found a typo in his printed >> text he enjoyed it & saw it as a leap into another possible poem. > >i guess when that works it works. some typos are just typos and it's hard >to find the trope. and some ideas are better than others. > >Ron, your notion of dis-owning the poem when this happens gives me some >comfort. i think you are right, those poems of mine that were published >without any consultation or dialogue are not mine. > >c. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:47:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Textual abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On textual editing: I was just last night re-reading Oppen's "Discrete Series," and it had never been as apparent to me what a disservice is done the poems by ND's refusal to give the poems each their own page (Oppen's thwearted wish). I'm actually dealing with this question, to some degree, in the Oppen material I'm currently editing, where one of the more troubling issues has been the extent to which each page is integral as a unit in and of itself. All previous selections from Oppen's "working papers" (all of which I've found extraordinary, and would be hesitant in critiquing), have presented fragmented, aphoristic excpets from the material which often appear radically different in the genetic documents. What is lost in such an approach is the process of composition (which is the process of thought itself), a process often much more disjunctive, much less condensed, than it might appear from the earlier selections. Also lost is a certain symbolic quality - i.e. the semantics of visual/material appearance (some non-literary researchers have actually studied Oppen's archive, his handwriting in particular, for clues about Alzheimer's...) Anyway, this just to continue the symposium (as it were). To add to the Olson story: Nate Mackey is rumoured to have changed "snapping our fingers" to "snapping out fingers" in 'Alphabet of Ahht' after a mis-type (his own, however, not a typesetter's or printer's). Stephen >Both SUNY Buffalo and the Archive for New Poetry at UCSD have a copy of >an early (1967 or 68) book of mine that was published by Jim >Orsino-Sorcic at Gunrunner Press in Milwaukee. Jim was real young and >new to the small press scene (as was I) when he did the book and he >re-did linebreaks to make it fit his format. I felt totally violated at >the time and still feel today as if I were the subject of an unwilling >collaboration. Must have been how Rexroth felt at Zukofsky's reworking >of his poem in the Objectivist Anthology. > >I've left that work off of my biblio (as you will note on the site at >EPC) and have never considered it _my_ work. I've made a point of >notating both extant copies in those archives and I don't have a copy of >the book myself. > >And I've been much more careful after that. > >I do think that small press people are generally (not entirely) more >careful than those in the larger presses where the flow of >responsibility gets more distributed and less personally felt. But >there's not much you can do about it, ultimately, beyond letting other >people know which presses do that. > > >Ron >ron.silliman@gte.net > > >>Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0700 >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>From: Carl Lynden Peters >>Subject: the death of the small press >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>i am interested in hearing from poets who have had their works >published >>by small presses (or other) and how they deal with publishers/presses >that >>quite literally re-write the work WITHOUT consulting with you th poet >>first. i am sad to say i have had this experience only recently. >perhaps >>my intentions weren't clear. but i always thot (i took it for granted) >>that before you are published publishers talk to you, consult with you >on >>whatever revisions or whatever. in one instance i stated: "i do not >want >>you to publish this essay." (yes, i had to turn a press down! i just >>didn't think the essay was worth it in the end), but they went ahead >and >>printed my work. i feel awful. like i've just been walked on. >> >>but maybe my experience is the exception. i have had one very good >>experience with a press. they sent me a copy of what they wanted to do >>with my work, and it was better than my original intention. but they >sent >>me detailed notes and a proto-type of sorts so that i cld see it before >>hand. so i am happy that there is this press out there. with an ethics >>. . . that puts the work first. >> >>carl >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:48:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Looking for a Teachable Text Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, I didn't know that there was a new edition, but this would make sense. The old edition was itself only available in hard cover, and might still be found used through university bookstores for a bit cheaper. But yes, the cost is a bit prohibitive nonetheless (used goes for $45 or so, I believe). Anyway, for _content_ it works... Stephen >Stephen, > >I just checked, and Amazon lists THE CRITICAL TRADITION, 1989 edition, as >out-of-print, and the revised second edition (1997) as only available in >hard covers, for $63.98 -- probably not a good price for students, nor for >me. Do you have any other information about this, as I have known Amazon to >be wrong about out-of-print books before, but usually when they are small >press publications. > >charles > > >At 04:53 PM 9/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Mark et al, >> >>The best theory/criticism anthology that I've seen is Davis Richter's THE >>CRITICAL TRADITION, which starts with Plato and runs right up to the near >>present (all in an easy 1500 pages). He provides failry concise overviews, >>and then often substantial excperts from the theorists he includes. Of >>course, it's very canonical (as is to be expected from any such book), but >>that's only to say that it provides a fairly solid introduction to the >>major trends in Western Lit. Crit. Structuralism and Poststructuralism are >>divided into two chapters (15 theorists), and offer a decent account of >>semiotics, deconstrcution, etc... >> >>Stephen Cope >> >> >chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing >chax@theriver.com >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax >520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:34:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: The Case of the Real (Declarative, for Lexie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - The Case of the Real (Declarative, for Lexie) "What appears to be a book about words is. So it's. Where there is. What appears to be awash in philosophy is. This is. It's. How is. It is. Al- ready, for such a text is. But it is. Perhaps it is. Or rather, the ling- uistic is. Nor are. There is. Death is. Death is. There is. Technology is. Technology is. The machine is. It is. Technology is. But this is. This is. Technology is. The surfaces are. This is. Cataclysm, dissolution, the col- lapse of the molecular, atomic, are. Being is. Perhaps Being is. Being is. It is. Intervals are. From moment to moment, speech is. At the heart of the written, there is. Transformations, becomings, are. There is. Almost all flows have been lost; this is. Our concern is. Words lead; they are. Words are. There is. Today is. There is. Not to write is. The beginning of the book is. What was. There are. Pure process is. One is. To step from the beginning, to step from this beginning, is. But mathesis is. There is. Everything and nothing are. Either everything is. Linkage is. One maps palely against or through the other; technology is. Following Lyotard, one might say that the real is. Writing is. It is. The scene is. The scene is. The scene is. It is. It is. It is. It is. The world is. It is. It is. This is. It is. On the other hand, there are." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:16:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Eric Mottram website Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk, poetryetc@listbot.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Exactly a year ago the first =B3Eric Mottram Conference=B2 took place at the University of London. I proposed at that time the creation of a website tha= t would publish the papers of this and subsequent conferences, as well as wor= k by and on Eric Mottram. Due to circumstances etc. it took some time to get started, but here it is, as always "under construction," "ralentir travaux,= " but open: http://www.albany.edu/mottram/ There still some hitches & glitches, and I would much appreciate any commentaries, suggestions, submissions etc. you may have. Pierre Joris =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:06:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Un bureau sur l'Atlantique Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A N N O U N C E M E N T I'm pleased to announce a significant new resource at the EPC, Un bureau sur l'Atlantique, a new bilingual web site created by Juliette Valery. The Bureau promotes American poetry in France through translation workshops, events, and different publishing series. The web site is terrific and provides a good look at the Bureau and its publications as well as the important work "Taches blanches / Blank Spots" by Emmanuel Hocquard. Come and visit Un bureau, the current selected resource at the EPC home page, http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:18:10 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: sunday's child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sunday's slight reminder LA BOOKS resumes its READING series STEPHEN RATCLIFFE TODD BARON BALCONY CAFE (at centinela and santa monica blvds) Santa Monica 4pm today 9/20/98 * ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:55:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Eric Mottram website Comments: To: Pierre Joris , british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk, poetryetc@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Joris To: poeTICS@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu ; british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk ; poetryetc@listbot.com Date: 20 September 1998 15:14 |Exactly a year ago the first ³Eric Mottram Conference² took place at the |University of London. I proposed at that time the creation of a website that |would publish the papers of this and subsequent conferences, as well as work |by and on Eric Mottram Excellent that so many more people will be able to receive this material - as in *my case because I had to miss out on a number of papers. preparing for the evening Keep it up! Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:59:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: Beyond the Sun & Moon Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Charles, I truly appreciate it. Douglas Charles Bernstein wrote: > > I've just had the great pleasure of receiving Sun & Moon Press's two most > recent books: Joan Retallack's How to Do Things with Words and Myung Mi Kim's > Dura, both of which I have been eagerly awaiting. I keep thinking there must be > some magic to Douglas Messerli's publishing: how can he do so many books? But I > also know that there is no magic, and that Sun & Moon lives within the same > dire poetry publishing economy that many of us on this list are all too > familiar. While at crucial points in its history, Sun & Moon did benefit from > NEA and foundation grants, that time seems more and more remote. And a press > like this, without the kind independent resources that have sustained some > other literary publishers of a comparable scale to Sun & Moon, is dependent on > sales for its survival. > > So when Sun & Moon sent those lists of $4 poetry books last week, it seemed to > me that buying multiple copies of those books might be the ideal way to support > Sun & Moon, to ensure that it is able to keep publishing books like the ones on > the lists. While Sun & Moon is actually and officially a nonprofit > organization, fund raising by the press has been negligible. But the sale, it > seems to me, offers a great way of making a contribution to Sun & Moon -- and, > in the bargain, getting books for oneself and also books to give to friends. > It's a little like what Peter Pan says about Tinkerbell: if we want a press > like Sun & Moon to survive, we all have to sprinkle a little fairy dust now, in > the form of bulk buying of those $4 books. That may be the only kind of magic > that works -- the kind that comes from readers who want these books and want > more of them. > > For those who want to take another look at the list of books available, check > out the Poetics List archive for this month under messages from Douglas > (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html) or write to Douglas > Messerli direct (at djmess@CINENET.NET) and I am sure he will return your > request with a copy of the list. (The Sun & Moon website it at > http://www.sunmoon.com ) > > Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: beep conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >A Celebration/tribute/conference > > > >On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten > >September 25-26, Emily Carr College of Art and Design >Room 328, 1400 Johnson Street >Granville Island, Vancouver >> >Friday, September 25 >6:00 - 7:00 p.m. Registration > Music by Susan McMaster, poems for bp on CD > Installations by derek A. beaulieu (displayed > throughout the conference) >7:00 - 8:00 p.m. "bp: pushing the boundaries," a film by Brian Nash >8:00 - 11:00 p.m. Readings and performances (Readers will include >Lillian Allen, > Darren Wershler-Henry, Steven Ross Smith,& Steve >McCaffery) > > >Saturday, September 26 >9:30 a.m. Registration >10:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. Introductions > Panel 1: Re-Calling bp. A Panel Discussion > Frank Davey, Daphne Marlatt, Fred Wah, > Irene Niechoda (moderator) >12:00 - 1:00 p.m. Lunch >1:00 - 1:30 p.m. Steve McCaffery: "The Semiology of the Saints" >1:30 - 3:30 p.m. Panel 2: Clint Burnham, Ashok Mathur, Peter >Jaeger, > >3:30 - 3:45 p.m. Coffee break >3:45 - 6:00 p.m. Panel 3: Brian Dedora, Steven Ross Smith > Carl Peters Darren Wershler-Henry > Respondent to the day: Sharon Thesen > >6:00 - 8:00 p.m. Dinner >8:00 - 10:30 p.m. Gala reading (readers include Anne Walker, > Ashok Mathur, Renee Rodin, Carl Peters, Jeff >Derksen, > Daphne Marlatt, Sharon Thesen, Gerry Gilbert, >Dorothy > Trujillo Lusk, Fred Wah, Peter Jaeger and others) > >Ticket prices: $5 single evening; $10 two day pass >For more information or to register, contact Jacqueline Larson, West Coast >Line, 291-4287; email jlarson@sfu.ca >> >> >>NOTE: RELATED EVENT!! >>24 September, SFU campus, a celebration of "bpNichol Day" >>Special Collectsion, 7th Floor, W.A.C. Bennett Library >> >>1::30 - 3:30 p.m. - Display of publications and manuscripts from the Nichol >> papers >> - Readings by Steve McCaffery and Darren Wershler-Henry >> - Ellie Nichol in attendance > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >=================================== > >7 pm >Thursday >September 24, > >************ >Ashok Mathur >_Once Upon an Elephant_ (novel, Arsenal Pulp, Fall-98) >****************************************************** > and >****************** >Rajinderpal S. Pal >_papaji wrote poetry in a language i cannot read_ (poetry, TSAR, Fall-98) >****************************************************** > >Sugar Refinery >1115 Granville St. >Vancouver, BC > >*call 687-4233 for information* >*this is a free event* >*the Sugar Refinery's Thursday Night Jazz event follows at 10pm* > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: Zukofsky's "'Mantis,' An Interpretation" In-Reply-To: <199809190459.XAA03626@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can someone identify the source of Zukofsky's opening?-- Nomina sunt consequentia rerum, names are sequent to the things named Thanks, Michael Leddy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Textual abuse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When reading the page proofs for my The poetics of Self-Consciousness I never removed a large paper clip sort of thing from the top of the pages. One of the title headings read Vincente Aleixandre instead of Vicente, but I never saw it until the book was printed. So it is Vincente on very single &%$#@ page of the chapter. Ouch. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:37:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: Vallejo quotation? In-Reply-To: <199809190459.XAA03626@ux1.cts.eiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm looking at the epigraphs to Gilbert Sorrentino's Aberration of Starlight--the Apollinaire I know is from "Marizibill" (Alcools), and the Satie is well known. But can someone point to the source of the lines from Vallejo?-- ?Quien no escribe una carta? ?Quien no habla de un asunto muy importante, muriendo de costumbre y llorando de oido? [Please visualize inverted question marks, and accents on the _e_ of _quien_ and the _i_ of _oido_.] Thanks, Michael Leddy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Zukofsky's "'Mantis,' An Interpretation" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Leddy wrote: > > Can someone identify the source of Zukofsky's opening?-- > > Nomina sunt consequentia rerum, > names are sequent to the things named > > Thanks, > > Michael Leddy I think it's from Justinian; see PROVERBI ITALIANI, 16th line down: http://www.ing.univaq.it/ordine/auleinf/filippo/latino.htm :~) Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: Poetry Project # MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The phone number for the Project is (212) 674-0910. The numbers at which it resides is the intersection of 10 and 2. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:36:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Franco Subject: lift mag & book sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit greetings! Michael Franco here & with some grand issues from lift: lift announces a limited number of back stock of issue 10/ 11: the Stephen Jonas issue; as well as # 15/16 the William Corbett issue are available @ $12. each, post-paid. lift 10&11 JONAS ISSUE. fall, 1992. Torra, editor. 132 pages; wrappers. with photo of Jonas by Petricone. Contains selections from Jonas’ EXCERSISES FOR EAR; Orgasms & other work: Essays by Rattray, Killian, Spicer, Dunn, Dorra Fitzgerald, Torra, Wieners, Corman, de Gruttula, Lansing, Ellingham & Weston. Interview with Joe Dunn. lift 15&16 WILLIAM CORBETT ISSUE. Fall, 1994. Torra, editor. 160 pages; wrappers. Cover photo by Dorfman: Interview w/ Corbett; 9 poems; Review of Vendler’s Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry; Essays/poems/ art by Creeley, Auster, Kleinzhaler, Lawrence, Harwood, Yau, Meyer, Warsh, Palmer, F. Howe, Mayer, M. Gizzi, Barrett, Pruitt, Mazur, Pruitt, Gander, Mckim, Sawyer- Lauçanno, Franco et al: Art by: Guston, Watkins, Amenoff, Imber, M. Torra, Seidman, M. Mazur, et al. lift chapbook series #’s 1-4 # 1. AT LAST ROUND UP: T.J.Anderson III. 1996. 29p. wrappers by Molly Torra. # 2. the journals of the man who kept bees [from A BOOK OF MEASURE; Second Circumference (complete)]: 1996. 44 p. wrappers by Katha Seidman. # 3. TIMESERVER: Nick Lawrence. 1996. 30p. Wrappers by Ben E. Watkins. # 4. Immediate Orgy & Audit: Ange Mlinko. 1996. 26p. Wrappers by Molly Torra. Individual titles 1,3,4: $8.00 #2 $8.50: all post-paid. A few complete sets have been put aside and are available on a first come- first served basis at $25.00 post paid. Also available from dromenon press: I have several copies of Joseph Torra’s 16 Paintings: Edition was limited to 50 signed & numbered copies, hand-sewn in wrappers decorated by Molly Torra. 1992. 21 p. $10 post paid. checks to M. Franco/ dromenon press. __________________________________ Copies & sets can be reserved via E-mail. Payment must be received with 7 days of confirmation [E-mail] for copies to be guaranteed. Checks for lift books payable to: J. Torra/ lift. All Mail Orders: c/o dromenon press 90 OXFORD ST SOMERVILLE MA >02143 {this is my new address- mf} E-mail mfranco34@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:05:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: <199809191940.MAA09804@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Ron, your notion of dis-owning the poem when this happens gives me some >comfort. i think you are right, those poems of mine that were published >without any consultation or dialogue are not mine. > >c. Nor a big deal, finally. In 10 years who'll care? Not you. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Great Book alert Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDE51D.5D8EE4E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDE51D.5D8EE4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gil Ott's Singing Horse Press has just published its 19th book in 19 = years, Linh Dinh's _Drunkard Boxing_, and it's simply fabulous. To give = you a sense of it, I want to quote two poems: O HANOI In the middle of town, or just off to the side, Is the largest turtle in the world. (Or, maybe, Just one of the largest.) We lived in the old quarters, on Potato Street, Then Coffin Street, then Clown Street, Then Teleprompter Street. In a so-called tube house, a house So narow one must walk sideways With one's head turned. Like this. We slept Upright during the Four Thousand Year War, and, Out of habit, for a thousand years afterward. You will find my name, that of a ballyhooed scholar From the 23rd century (AD or BC, I can't remember), Inscribed on the next-to-last stele At the Temple of Poesy. CHATTER OF HONOR On January 17th, 1978, at 2:32 PM, we were insulted. On May 4th, 1985, at midnight, we were again insulted. Our prestige has been retarded. Our legendary status deterred by patriotic rogues. Our height has been declined. We were promised a terrace and chunky soup, A pair of loafers and two leaflets. We were led to believe We had ongoing safe passage through the sewage. But our guide was hosed as we entered the city. We wandered until dawn popping every lit window. These are, as I think those two poems show, uses and contexts to which = an imagination informed by surrealism (and much more) have not = previously been put. The book as a whole is like discovering a world you = never knew existed and which makes absolute sense. Since it was just printed last week, I'm presuming that it can't be at = SPD yet, but it certainly will be there soon. And, as the verso says, = "Individuals may contact the press directly." Singing Horse Press Philadelphia Publishing Project PO Box 40034 Philadelphia, PA 19106 (215) 844-7678 The cost of a single copy is $8.00. -------------- Douglas, Speaking of fabulous, it's wonderful to know that Joan Retallack's _How = to Do Things with Words_ -- already a legendary work -- has finally also = become a reality we can all hold, own and read. Ron "I've just had the great pleasure of receiving Sun & Moon Press's two = most recent books: Joan Retallack's How to Do Things with Words and = Myung Mi Kim's Dura, both of which I have been eagerly awaiting."=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDE51D.5D8EE4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gil Ott's Singing Horse Press has = just published=20 its 19th book in 19 years, Linh Dinh's _Drunkard Boxing_, and it's = simply=20 fabulous. To give you a sense of it, I want to quote two = poems:
 
O HANOI
 
In the middle of town, or just off to the = side,
Is the largest turtle in the world. (Or, = maybe,
Just one of the largest.)
 
We lived in the old quarters, on Potato = Street,
Then Coffin Street, then Clown Street,
Then Teleprompter Street.
 
In a so-called tube house, a house
So narow one must walk sideways
With one's head turned. Like this. We = slept
Upright during the Four Thousand Year War, = and,
Out of habit, for a thousand years = afterward.
 
You will find my name, that of a ballyhooed=20 scholar
From the 23rd century (AD or BC, I can't=20 remember),
Inscribed on the next-to-last stele
At the Temple of Poesy.
 
 
CHATTER OF HONOR
 
On January 17th, 1978, at 2:32 PM, we were=20 insulted.
On May 4th, 1985, at midnight, we were again=20 insulted.
Our prestige has been retarded.
Our legendary status deterred by patriotic=20 rogues.
Our height has been declined.
We were promised a terrace and chunky = soup,
A pair of loafers and two leaflets.
We were led to believe
We had ongoing safe passage through the = sewage.
But our guide was hosed as we entered the = city.
We wandered until dawn popping every lit = window.
 
 
These are, as I think those two = poems show, uses=20 and contexts to which an imagination informed by surrealism (and much = more) have=20 not previously been put. The book as a whole is like discovering a world = you=20 never knew existed and which makes absolute sense.
 
Since it was just printed last week, I'm presuming = that it=20 can't be at SPD yet, but it certainly will be there soon. And, as the = verso=20 says, "Individuals may contact the press = directly."
 
Singing Horse Press
Philadelphia Publishing Project
PO Box 40034
Philadelphia, PA 19106
(215) 844-7678
 
The cost of a single copy is = $8.00.
 
--------------
 
Douglas,
 
Speaking of fabulous, it's wonderful to know that = Joan=20 Retallack's _How to Do Things with Words_ -- already a legendary work -- = has=20 finally also become a reality we can all hold, own and = read.
 
Ron
 
"I've just had the great pleasure of receiving Sun & Moon = Press's=20 two most recent books: Joan Retallack's How to Do Things with Words and = Myung Mi=20 Kim's Dura, both of which I have been eagerly awaiting."=20
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BDE51D.5D8EE4E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:10:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: gratitude (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - gratitude if i didn't have jennifer, julu, nikuko, i wouldn't be able to write. i'd only be able to write my own name, repeatedly, compulsively. it would decathect, disappear, only a viewpoint of iron and salt remaining. there would be nothing but annihilation to the limit, debris, ash left over from auschwitz. the writing _would_ in other words, "as it is," "as it is." planes slide against my body in the middle of the night, it's jennifer jennifer conjures up julu, she remains pale and ghostlike nikuko slides in directly from cherry-blossoms, pock monsters, computer lands they break me in to, stretch my skin beyond endurance, open my eyes wide, in the middle of the night, in the middle of the night. they allow me to think, pull out the ribs of me, backbone as well, take varying points of view, are a lot braver than i am, a lot smarter too but i don't dream of them, don't talk to them, perhaps there are words they place in my mind, murmuring, subaudibles, occasions for poetry and language, conjunctions of desire now perhaps i will try zoloft, occupying spaces with chemicals, filling in the gaps so that jennifer might continue to live. or now i might try a twelve-step or psychiatry, moving my writing to the level of the sym- tom, you'll never do that, jennifer says i won't let you and in that fashion, circumscriptions move like slow eddies across oils out into the real world, corraling perhaps a tenet of philosophy, a moment of what might pass for truth, an equation, an occasion. a brilliant text, one that is always sponsored, brought to you by mind, brought to you by chemical, brought to you by jennifer ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:47:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apologies for cross-posting Re WORD SCORE UTTERANCE TEXT edited by Cobbing and Upton 156pp, 42 poets, ISBN 0 86162 750 4 Scheduled for publication late October 98 Further to my recent posting, Robert Sheppard has agreed to his article being posted here. Thanks to Robert. Don't forget - L6.50 plus postage from New River Project 89a Petherton Road London N5 8QT UK A THING OR TWO UPON THE PAGE The contributors to this volume have been invited because of their fascinating, and fascinatingly diverse, approaches to an apparently similar situation. They produce (at least) two types of text which can be described as verbal and visual (to leave aside the vocal that surfaces also as an aspect of these works). That these two types may be reproduced, from authors' copy, on separate and contiguous pages, might be the only relationship that can be claimed for them. Yet it is clear from the statements of poetics that each writer has also produced, that the nature of that relationship is very seldom one of contingency or peaceful co-existence. Whereas some artists see themselves as engaged in two (or three) separate activities, like Franz Mon, others usefully dispute the distinction that the page divisions of this project have contentiously set up; the appearance of the fashionable word "hybrid" in the statements of Spencer Selby and Steve McCaffery testifies to this. The question is one of medium. In contributor Johanna Drucker's The Visible Word, Expcrimcntal Typography and Modern Art 1909-1923, she sees the typographical experiments of Modernism (which she continues in her own work) as a material practice with two orders of materiality. The first is the "stuff of apparency" (Drucker: 45), the "sheer concrete thingness of printer's type", as another contributor, Edwin Morgan, put it. (Cobbing and Mayer: 21) Such an order may not exclude questions of historical and cultural value; the same text on paper, brass or gold surely is validated differently. Secondly, Drucker reminds us, following Saussure, the text is bound also by the relational signifying system we call language. There is no necessary connection between these material codes; whereas the linguistic system is rule-bound (in terms of grammar, syntax, etc.) even when the rules are broken, the realm of the visual is less encoded, although historical conventions are not absent. A comparison of Tom Leonard's agitprop slogan poster poem and Clemente Padin's "Destability Stabled" will reveal, in the first, that the two systems are complementary, and in the second that the visual expression undermines and complicates the verbal content. Yet this doubleheaded materiality is ever present in language, in Leonard's piece, and in all physical inscription of language. Writing is not on paper, like a flat projection upon a screen, but is in the paper, as it were. "Materiality of language," as McCaffery says, "is that aspect which remains resistant to an absolute subsumption into the ideality of meaning .... To see the letter not as phoneme but as ink, and to further insist on that materiality, inevitably contests the status of language as a bearer of uncontaminated meaning." (Perloff: 129) As some contributors say, such "contamination" of Drucker's two systems is present in the physical appearance on the page of the "verbal" texts. This is not simply a question of design, layout, presentation, but of a visual syntax. There are no non-meaningful elements of a poem, in this sense, and questions of the spatial orientation of language on the page affect the reader's active engagement, and can be used to deliberately affect that engagement in many ways. This is relevant whether one is faced with Mallarmé, Olson, computer or hypertext poetry; or, as a teacher, the unreadable purple loops of an embellished exam script!. The spatial field of the page has often suggested notation, whether it is in the precise spacing of Jackson Mac Low's "Forties" or the openness of Cobbing's visual sound-scapes. Both imply eye-movement as text-realisation, present in both language and the visual, but again more coded in language (left to right, top to bottom, for example) than in the image (though conventions of perspective, centre and frame may dictate starting points). But what happens when language is read in that visual field? To turn to purely visual work, an escape from the linguistic system into the more open semiosis of the visual field can, in differing degrees, effect a critique, or even dismissal of, the constrictions of language. In certain texts here, language as system is absent, or skeletally present as ink on a page, or is replaced by recognisable image (and even figuration, especially in collage pieces). The avoidance of the discursive in the figural is analogous to the attitude of sculptor Anish Kapoor who speaks of his suspicion of objects. A similar suspicion towards language as system is demonstrated here, along with a fascination with page space (and, by extension, book-space, in the work of book artists and others). Some work collected here almost magically holds the two "systems" in a separate and parallel state. Drucker's spatiality matches the semantic with a rare poise and assurance. McCaffery on the other hand talks of presenting a number of writing systems on one plane. It is in some of the more hybrid texts that the system of language and the field of the visible collapse into one another, beyond the typographical doubleness described and enacted by Drucker. Each begins to take on aspects of the other. Letter forms or what might be letter forms, lose their relation to the system (and this doesn't only happen in the use of alien writing systems, as in Maggie O'Sullivan's designs). Yet shape and image begin to take on the look of letter shapes, symbols in an alien script, something that it forced upon the performer of such texts, for that is what a reader has become (whether or not one rises to one's feet with Bob Cobbing and begins to sound the texts as a score). The irruption of thingness in language, as I've hinted above, is the irruption of material historical occasion, of making, validation, and performance of the text, that will unsettle linguistic system, and declare its rooted but excessive presence. But materiality has not only been used as part of a materialist poetics. A hundred years ago (and where were the celebrations of this fact?) Mallarmé's Un Coup de Dés dissolved syntax, opened up the page, varied type size and style, and margins, partly as a critique of the case of early modern newspaper design, yet its aim was an ideality of the Book. The paradox is that, like the contemplation of yantra or icon, an intense perception of material, significantly disrupted, affords access to a metaphysical realm, even a spirituality, or (as one contributor argues) to a pre-verbal state of primeval responsiveness. This paradoxical and, from the point of view of the poetics I have so far outlined, an opposing view of verbal and visual practices, can he found in some of the statements contained here. I don't personally share this view of language and the visual, but it does point to one of the commonalities of this work: the fact of the made thingness of the work diminishes the ro1e of selfhood in artistic creation. It also serves as a reminder of two things: firstly, poetics is a prescriptive, yet speculative, and suggestive, discourse (unlike the formulations of theory and criticism) and what it enables is almost as important as what it says; secondly, that the models of language and the visual are themselves historically and culturally unstable, and open to continual re-negotiation. Such work as contained here, whether verbal, visual, hybrid, or whatever it does or doesn't designate itself, has its place in those re-negotiations. Its power, in the most general terms, lies in its ability to test and contest the limits of language, the limits of the visual, and, ultimately, the limits of the world. Its refusal of boundaries, or its shifting of these, its exceeding of the boundaries, its excessive drawing into the fixed areas of literary and art practice of techniques and materials usually regarded as extraneous, is one of the great challenges that can be made in this era. As computer technologies conflate the visual and the verbal, an art which persists and resists at the meeting points of these systems (whether or not it partakes of the still "new" technologies, and oddly very little of what is contained here does) is particularly relevant and exciting. You will discover, as you read the following pages, quite a few things upon and into them, as the generalities of introduction give way to specific practices and specific pleasures. Robert Sheppard May 1998 Cobbing B. and Mayer, P. Concerning Concrete Poetry, Writers Forum, 1978 Drucker, J The Visible Word, The University of Chicago Press, 1994 Perloff, M. Radical Artifice, The University of Chicago Press, 1991 Copyright (c) Robert Sheppard 1998 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:42:50 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Textual abuse: my own sins Content-Type: text/plain The Chicago Review was converting to computer typesetting when David Melnick and I edited our selection of SF writing (vol. 21, #4, 1970) and we never saw proofs. Much longer bio notes for our contributors got mushed together pretty badly. How badly? Well, consider that Joanne Kyger "once married Gary Snyder, her lone volume" Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Hreha Subject: Re: Vallejo quotation? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael- Offhand I don't remember the Vallejo title but have the book at home. Will send tonight if noone else does. A. Sarah Hreha Dept. of Spanish and Portuguese University of Minnesota The Oct. visit of Cuban poet Norberto Codina: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hreh0001/ncodina.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: VM translator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can anyone tell me who translated Mayakovsky's HOW TO MAKE VERSE for the Curbstone Press (Willamantic, CT) in 1976? Can anyone give some information about the press. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Lorcathon NYC (concert announcement FWRD) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Friends & Enemies of New Music are pleased to announce an upcoming concert this Wednesday, Sept. 23rd, at 8:00 p.m., at Christ & St. Stephen's church, 120 W. 69th St. (off Broadway) in observance of the centennial of the birth of the great Spanish poet, Federico Garcia Lorca. The program will include: "Balada Amarilla" for solo piano by David Del Tredici, played by the composer; "Cinq Chants de Lorca" by Noel Lee for soprano, flute and guitar; "Songs of the Duende" for mezzo and piano by Paula Kimper; "Cante Jondo" for mezzo, guitar and hand percussion by Ben Yarmolinsky; "El Polifemo de Oro" by Reginald Smith-Brindle for solo guitar; "Canciones Baja la Luna" by Joel Hamburger for mezzo, bass clarinet, marimba and Fender Rhodes piano; and "Cuatro Canciones de Garcia Lorca for soprano and piano by Paul Bowles. The program will also include selections from Garcia Lorca's own arrangements of Spanish folk songs. Poet Jaime Manrique will read his own and Lorca's poetry. Performers: Jorge Caballero-guitar, Marcella Calabi-soprano, Tom Cipullo- piano, Tom Kolor-percussion, David Del Tredici-piano, Kelly Horsted-piano, Margaret Lancaster-flute, Elaine Valby-mezz-soprano, Mimi Watkins-mezzo- soprano, Ben Yarmolinsky-guitar, Darynn Zimmer-soprano. Tickets will be available at the door or may be reserved by calling (212) 749-1324. Prices are $12 and $8 for students and seniors. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:47:33 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: query Brannen Content-Type: text/plain If anyone has an e-mail address for Jonathan Brannen, please backchannel. Thanks, Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:30:35 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Everybody else is doing it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Please transmit the following message to as many people as you can: To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Amnesty International is collecting signatures for a pledge to support this very important United Nations declaration. Amnesty has 3 million signatures (real and virtual) world wide, and wants 8 million (which would be 1/1000 of the world's population). The UN secretary has already agreed to be present either in person or live by satellite (if he has to be in New York) to receive the pledge as a tangible statement of the world's people's commitment to an international agenda of human rights. The simplest way to add your name to the pledge is to send an e-mail to : udhr50th@amnesty.org.au with YOUR NAME in the SUBJECT and the following text in the message : "I support the rights and freedoms in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for all people, everywhere." Please, forward this message to as many people as you can. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:12:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: ASL interpreter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Would anyone out there be willing to interpret Jim Carroll's reading at the Poetry Project on Wed. Oct. 7th in American Sign Language? Or does anyone know anyone who could? Or does anyone have any leads on finding an ASL interpreter who would be willing to volunteer their time? You can call me at (212) 674-0910, or backchannel at poproj@artomatic.com Thanks! Marcella Durand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:04:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Textual abuse: my own sins In-Reply-To: <19980921104251.26500.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As in quantity? At 03:42 AM 9/21/98 PDT, you wrote: >The Chicago Review was converting to computer typesetting when David >Melnick and I edited our selection of SF writing (vol. 21, #4, 1970) and >we never saw proofs. Much longer bio notes for our contributors got >mushed together pretty badly. How badly? Well, consider that Joanne >Kyger "once married Gary Snyder, her lone volume" > > > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com > >DO NOT RESPOND to >Tottels@Hotmail.com >It is for listservs only. > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:14:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Re: VM translator In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980921175214.0075e72c@po7.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Preface by James Scully, but the back cover says translation by Valentina Coe. Copyright page says it's a reprint from Modern Russian Poets On Poetry, Ardis 1976. "6. There is no need to start a vast poetic factory going in order to make poetic cigarette lighters." At 1:52 PM -0400 9/21/98, daniel bouchard wrote: >Can anyone tell me who translated Mayakovsky's HOW TO MAKE VERSE for the >Curbstone Press (Willamantic, CT) in 1976? > >Can anyone give some information about the press. > ><<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Daniel Bouchard >The MIT Press Journals >Five Cambridge Center >Cambridge, MA 02142 > >bouchard@mit.edu >phone: 617.258.0588 > fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Another Pesky Williams Query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Where in WC Williams does this occur: "thus moonlight is the perfect human touch?" b-c, please -- Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:22:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: mannerism Art for art's sake crosses cultural boundaries. For the Establishment it is underwritten by the order of values handed down (along with the trust funds). For the Avant-garde it is the talisman providing safe rejection of those values (along with the trust funds). Everywhere I look I see cliques. And eminently superficial poetry, written for friends and mentors. Phrases parroted from someone's 100 year old idea of sophistication. I'm a bad reader & frustrated cleric trying to stir up some noise & get attention at whatever the cost - what else is new? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:58:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Instress Fall 1998 Chapbooks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Instress announces its Fall 1998 series of publications: Chapbooks: IN A FLASH by Rosmarie Waldrop OTHER VEINS, ABSENT ROOTS by Elizabeth Robinson & _Inscape #3_ (Print Mag) featuring poetry by John Olson, Martha Ronk, Gene Frumkin, Ray DiPalma, Dennis Barone, and Elizabeth Robinson. The set of all three publications is available from the publisher: Instress P.O. Box 3124 Saratoga, CA 95070 for just $10. Similarly, subscription to the Winter 1998/99 series (two chapbooks and _Inscape #4_) can be subscribed to for $10) Previous Instress Chapbooks: TRANSIENTS by Shannon Welch STONE ANGELS by Keith Waldrop THE RESEMBLANCE BEGINS by Keith Waldrop (A Play) DESIRE & ITS DOUBLE by Norma Cole LEAFLETS by Sheila E. Murphy EX-FINITE:DANGERS DANCER... by Peter Ganick ASCENDED DISTANCE by Leonard Brink L O R E by Laynie Browne BLINDSIGHT by Rosmarie Waldrop Individual copies of these are available for $4 from: Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, CA 94710 and in the U.K. from: Spectacular Diseases c/o Paul Green 83b London Road Peterborough, Cambs. PE 2 9BS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:49:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Art? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Henry Gould wrote: > > Art for art's sake crosses cultural boundaries. For the Establishment it is > underwritten by the order of values handed down (along with the trust funds). > For the Avant-garde it is the talisman providing safe rejection of those > values (along with the trust funds). Art for art's sake cannot be for art's sake. Art for art's sake crosses cultural boundaries like burb dwellers do. A healthy avant-garde does not seek the new for the sake of novelty or art, but out of respect for contemporary experience and in appreciation of those with vision who have gone before. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:58:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Beyond the Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" BEYOND THE PAGE PRESENTS: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: What: Beyond the Page continues its series of monthly performance and arts events with MARK WEISS and CHRISTOPHER REINER reading from their works. Where: Faultline Theatre, 3152 5th Avenue (at Spruce in Hillcrest), San Diego. When: Sunday, September 26. 4:00 PM. Contact: Stephen Cope at (619) 298-8761 or Joe Ross at (619) 291-8984. E-mail at scope@ucsd.edu, or jjross@cts.com. * * * * * * * * * CHIRISTOPHER REINER was born and raised in Southern California. He was a member of The Drift Group of experimental filmmakers, and, since 1992, he has edited _WITZ: A Journal of Contemporary Poetics_. His writing has appeared in a variety of journals, including _Avec_, and the O*Blek anthology _Writing from the New Coast_. _A Coward's Libretto_, was published as a chapbook by Texture Press, His new book is _Ogling Anchor_, recently published by Avec Books. He is currently working a short video project, "The Man Who Ate A Car." MARK WEISS is the author of two books of poetry, _Intimate Wilderness_ and _Fieldnotes_, and two chapbooks, "Letter to Maxine" and "A Block-Print by Kuniyoshi." He has been active as a readings organizer (at the West End and the Ear Inn in New York) and as editor and publisher of the magazine _Broadway Boogie_ in the 70's and Junction Press at present. He has taught Literature, Writing, Psychology (he was a psychotherapist for 15 years) and Film at the University of Connecticut, Columbia University, Hunter College, SUNY-Old Westbury, Pima College, the University of Arizona-Extension and UCSD. * * * * * * * * * BEYOND THE PAGE, an independent arts group dedicated to the promotion of experimental and explorative work in contemporary arts, is proud to continue its monthly series of arts-related events with this dynamic reading/perofrmance. . For more information, call: (619) 298-8761, (619) 291-8984; e-mail: scope@ucsd.edu, jjross@cts.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:36:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Freind" Subject: Kenning In-Reply-To: <01bde544$daa19000$LocalHost@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is Patrick Durgin out there? Sorry for the front-channel. Bill Freind ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Rain Taxi Vol. 3 No. 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone: The new _Rain Taxi review of books_ is now available. This issue features: an interview with John Yau by Brian Evenson; "The Death of the Author" by Ruth Andrews (literally, a meditation on death, _not_ the postmod trope); "Paul Valery & Microsoft" by Richard Grossman; an essay on Jane Bowles by Harrison Nutkins; a feature on Lost Roads presss by Eric Lorberer; an interview with Julian Rios by Alexander Larence; "adversaria," quotations courtesy of Marjorie Perloff; "It wasn't a Dream It Was a Flood: The Life and Work of Frank Stanford" by Greg Bachar; "Three Visions of the Autobiographical Eye," a review of recent graphic novels by Eric Lorberer; the next installment of my own "New Life" cartoon; and reviews of books by Heather Ramsdell (by Kelly Everding), Alice Notley (by Chris Fishbach), Michael Palmer (by Eric Lorberer), C.S. Giscombe (by Mark Nowak), John Edgar Wideman (by Rudi Dornemann), Sarah Schulman (by Charisse Gendron), Marguerite Duras (by Lucinda Ebersole), Joseph Cornell (by Randall Heath), Rigoberta Menchu (By Josie Rawson), Alison Bundy (by Kelly Everding), Arthur Sze (by Tony Barnstone), Charles Bernstein (by Gerald Schwartz), Annie Sprinkle (by Kelly Everding), Curtis White (by Christopher Sorrentino) . . . and much, much more. Subscribe! -- 1 year = $10 (domestic), $20 (international) Rain Taxi, Inc. P.O. Box 3840 Minneapolis, MN 55403 raintaxi@bitstream.net www.raintaxi.com Rain Taxi is edited by Caroline Kuebler, Randall Heath and Eric Lorberer. If you would like the new issue, backchannel me and I'll send it along while my supplies last. ciao for niao, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:41:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: query: poetics of metallurgy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of "human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal over the course of time, the endpoin tof which would be some kind of multimedia "docoment," possibly a piece of metal w/ an inscription. i've suggested he read lorine niedecker, christian bok's crystallography, clark coolidge's the crystal text and paul metcalf's work, for tastes of how poets "materialize" verbally certain materials. and he's reading, of course, bachelard. but does anyone know of texts or writers who are specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? thanks in advance, and thanks also for the many responses to my "many queries" of about a month ago. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Rilke? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone have any recommendations on translations of Rilke? I have a twenty year old edition of the sonnets and elegies translated by Poulin, which I have never liked, despite the blurbs on the back by such luminaries as Lowell, Ignatow, Dickey, and Kunitz. My German is weak, and I don't respond well to the "yoo hoo" school of Rilke translation. In a similar vein, I am looking for lucid essay(s) on Rilke, explaining his significance to modern poetry as a whole. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:50:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not certain about metal, but for materiality, big-time, Ian Hamilton Finlay. And don't forget Blake. sounds like fun. Sylvester At 9:41 AM -0600 9/22/98, Maria Damon (Maria Damon) wrote: >hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of >"human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal >over the course of time, the endpoin tof which would be some kind of >multimedia "docoment," possibly a piece of metal w/ an inscription. i've >suggested he read lorine niedecker, christian bok's crystallography, clark >coolidge's the crystal text and paul metcalf's work, for tastes of how >poets "materialize" verbally certain materials. and he's reading, of >course, bachelard. but does anyone know of texts or writers who are >specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? thanks in >advance, and thanks also for the many responses to my "many queries" of >about a month ago. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:47:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Maria Damon (Maria Damon) wrote: > hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of > "human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal > over the course of time [...] > does anyone know of texts or writers who are > specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? Peter Riley, _Two Essays_ (Grossteste, 1983) (the first of these is "Note on Vein Forms," about minerology: "It is a fluid substance, always bending and drooping and melting, oxydising and dissolving....This animal-like quality is in conflict with the static qualities of stone or even wood, which are also integral to human sense") Peter Riley, _Tracks and Mineshafts_ (Grossteste, 1983) (poems: "The fuzzily scanned futures of our acts / become a chalky rubble under our feet, / crumbling downgrade, offer and result / of protection from climate, horizontal / bone web across the rim of hope, we / sink in it, down to the ocean floor") Two sadly forgotten books Ben F. via Carla B. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:03:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jessica Smith Subject: Re: Rilke? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i like stephen mitchell. he translated "The selected poetry of Rainer Marie Rilke." I think he only translate mainstream books like that (collections) but he does a good job and also translates Neruda well. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:33:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shana Subject: Re: Rilke? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jessica wrote: >i like stephen mitchell. he translated "The selected poetry of Rainer Marie >Rilke." I think he only translate mainstream books like that (collections) but >he does a good job and also translates Neruda well. > He is a an excellent translator--he collaborated with Chana Bloch in translating Yehuda Amichai, and I think he works with a lot of biblical literature. I did see, however, that he wrote some book about how to use "the power of Tao Te Ching to achieve success in your financial and personal life" or something silly like that. As for Rilke, I have _Duino Elegies_ as translated by David Oswald, and I like it. Shana ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:50:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Textual abuse In-Reply-To: from "George Bowering" at Sep 21, 98 01:05:25 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's a big deal to me now. how wld you feel if someone butchered yr work, i mean how wld you feel if you really felt that they'd wrecked yr work, something you spend a lot of time on. or maybe they do butcher your work and you don't care. i think 10 years after Ron published his anthology he still cares. c. > >Ron, your notion of dis-owning the poem when this happens gives me some > >comfort. i think you are right, those poems of mine that were published > >without any consultation or dialogue are not mine. > > > >c. > > Nor a big deal, finally. In 10 years who'll care? Not you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:13:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maria, Many bookmakers have done metal bindings, some even entirely metal books. I know Arion Press did a Flatland many years ago with metal covers in metal case of some sort. Also, Daniel Kelm has done many metal bindings, I think even inventing one or more styles of binding in metal. Johanna Drucker, I think, has done some work with metal, too. I'm not the expert on this, but perhaps through MOMA's artists' book collection, or Printed Matter Bookstore in Manhattan, a lot could be found out, if you want more information along these lines. Steve Clay might also be a good resource about such works. charles At 09:41 AM 9/22/98 -0600, you wrote: >hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of >"human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal >over the course of time, the endpoin tof which would be some kind of >multimedia "docoment," possibly a piece of metal w/ an inscription. i've >suggested he read lorine niedecker, christian bok's crystallography, clark >coolidge's the crystal text and paul metcalf's work, for tastes of how >poets "materialize" verbally certain materials. and he's reading, of >course, bachelard. but does anyone know of texts or writers who are >specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? thanks in >advance, and thanks also for the many responses to my "many queries" of >about a month ago. bests, md > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:07:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rilke? In-Reply-To: <005601bde64f$285e1060$5aee7a80@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For the Sonnets I would recommend Karl Siegler's translation, published by Talonbooks about 20 years ago. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:15:49 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: from "Maria Damon" at Sep 22, 98 09:41:38 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone mentioned Blake in response to this. See Viscomi's _Blake and the Idea of the Book_ (Princeton 1993) for the authoritative discussion of the technical processes involved in Blake's relief etching on copper plates and the relationship of those processes to Blake's poetics. Matt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:56:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Brazilian poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry to be uf front cahnnel with this but i've misfiled the original addresses for the few currently interested in Brazilian poetry. try this- AUTHOR Perrone, Charles A. TITLE Seven faces : Brazilian poetry since modernism / Charles A. Perrone. IMPRINT Durham, N.C. : Duke University Press, 1996. DESCRIPT xvi, 234 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. NOTE Includes bibliographical references (p. [191]-227) and index. SUBJECT Brazilian poetry -- 20th century -- History and criticism. STD # 0822318075 (cloth : acid-free paper) 0822318148 (pbk. : acid-free paper) OTHER NO. 96000078. ocm34114754. best, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:29:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: I Sing the Body Apoplectic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" here's a new low of some kind -- last night, as the talking heads had at the Clinton tapes, the conversation turned to the question of whether or not Clinton was to be believed when he said he didn't think the matter of the gifts he'd exchanged with Lewinski was anything to worry much about. One Mark Braden, former Chief Counsel to the Republican National Committee, turned literary critic on us: Braden: left"Do I beleive he's telling the truth? The answer is, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense. I give . . . Leaves of Grass is not the type of gift one would normally give to some young intern that works in your office. It's not that type of gift." Now, that's remarkable -- The good grey bard as prima facie evidence of perjury! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: He said what? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-Sender: cpreston@falcon.cc.ukans.edu >Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:44:33 -0500 >To: cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu >From: "Catherine L. Preston" >Subject: He said what? >Sender: owner-cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu >Reply-To: cultstud-l@nosferatu.cas.usf.edu > >"Public media should not contain explicit or implied descriptions of sex >acts. Our society should be purged of the perverts who provide the media >with pornographic material while pretending it has some redeeming social >value under the public's 'right to know.'" > >-- Kenneth Starr, 1987, "Sixty Minutes" interview with Diane Sawyer. > >Catherine L. Preston >Assistant Professor, Film Studies >Dept. of Theater and Film >University of Kansas, >Lawrence, KS 66045-2175 >OFF: (785) 749-1130 FAX: (785) 331-2671 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: I Sing the Body Apoplectic In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980922132900.0069faac@popmail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Perhaps Mark Braden would have been happier had "clinchie" given Stepping Razor as a present..... (well, anybody here voting for GRANDPA for gov. of NY....). c On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Aldon Nielsen wrote: > here's a new low of some kind -- last night, as the talking heads had at > the Clinton tapes, the conversation turned to the question of whether or > not Clinton was to be believed when he said he didn't think the matter of > the gifts he'd exchanged with Lewinski was anything to worry much > about. > > > One Mark Braden, former Chief Counsel to the Republican National > Committee, turned literary critic on us: > > > Braden: > > left"Do I beleive he's telling the truth? The > answer is, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense. I give . . . > Leaves of Grass is not the type of gift one would > normally give to some young intern that works in your office. It's not > that type of gift." > > > Now, that's remarkable -- The good grey bard as prima facie > evidence of perjury! > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Beyond the Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Correction, that's Sunday September _27th_... >BEYOND THE PAGE PRESENTS: > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: > >What: Beyond the Page continues its series of monthly performance and >arts > events with MARK WEISS and CHRISTOPHER REINER reading from their >works. >Where: Faultline Theatre, 3152 5th Avenue (at Spruce in Hillcrest), San >Diego. >When: Sunday, September 26. 4:00 PM. >Contact: Stephen Cope at (619) 298-8761 or Joe Ross at (619) 291-8984. >E-mail at > scope@ucsd.edu, or jjross@cts.com. > > > * * * * * * * * * > > > >CHIRISTOPHER REINER was born and raised in Southern California. He was a >member of The Drift Group of experimental filmmakers, and, since 1992, he >has edited _WITZ: A Journal of Contemporary Poetics_. His writing has >appeared in a variety of journals, including _Avec_, and the O*Blek >anthology _Writing from the New Coast_. _A Coward's Libretto_, was >published as a chapbook by Texture Press, His new book is _Ogling Anchor_, >recently published by Avec Books. He is currently working a short video >project, "The Man Who Ate A Car." > > >MARK WEISS is the author of two books of poetry, _Intimate Wilderness_ and >_Fieldnotes_, and two chapbooks, "Letter to Maxine" and "A Block-Print by >Kuniyoshi." He has been active as a readings organizer (at the West End and >the Ear Inn in New York) and as editor and publisher of the magazine >_Broadway Boogie_ in the 70's and Junction Press at present. He has taught >Literature, Writing, Psychology (he was a psychotherapist for 15 years) and >Film at the University of Connecticut, Columbia University, Hunter College, >SUNY-Old Westbury, Pima College, the University of Arizona-Extension and >UCSD. > > > > * * * * * * * * * > > >BEYOND THE PAGE, an independent arts group dedicated to the promotion of >experimental and explorative work in contemporary arts, is proud to >continue its monthly series of arts-related events with this dynamic >reading/perofrmance. . For more information, call: (619) 298-8761, (619) >291-8984; e-mail: scope@ucsd.edu, jjross@cts.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: where to begin... the rumor of my demise is exaggerated for those of you who don't know me, skip this message (and i am terribly sorry to have bothered you). for those of you who DO know me, you have been wondering where i am. well, short version is, about a year ago i lost access to the account that i get poetics mail on. my new account at mit was on a different server with a painfully arcane mail handler. i did not want to resubscribe till i got a better mail handler in place. because i lost access to my old account, i lost everyone's email addresses. so, S O R R Y to everyone who has been wondering about me. the longer you leave an embarrassing and impossible task, the more embarrassing and impossible it becomes... excuses out of way, my new email address is mcgrand@mit.edu. i now have access to old account, but don't mail me there because am in process of shutting it down. how do i get the huge block o' text version, the whole list activity for day as one email version (reply to mcgrand@mit.edu)? i will send a real list type message shortly, but anyway, hello everyone, i missed you all badly. e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:36:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: call for work for free cuisinart for those of you who don't know, i am an editor at the Free Cuisinart, an ezine housed at the Creative Coalition of Artists site at http://www.on-net.net/~cca this will change soon -- stay tuned for new address. we have two upcoming thematic issues coming up (new zine comes out every two months) -- here is call for work for them: ------------------------------------------- The upcoming editions of Free Cuisinart will be "The EP" Free Cuisinart (extended play), and the Flower issue. The "EP" Cuis will feature a selection of authors with extended groups (5-8) of poems. The Flower issue is not your typical Roses and Carnations and Romance sort of flower thing. No, we want _funky_ flowers. We want the orange bowl parade as enacted in your exe's Mai Tai. We want Busch Gardens worn on the fine sternums of Dolly Parton and Pee Wee Herman. We want you to surprise us. The issue will feature poetry, prose, fiction, collage, and artwork involving flowers in some way. There will be room for lots of illustrations, and we are looking not just for poems and fiction, but most particularly for artwork, and for collage writing -- writing that melds prose, poetry, standard bureaucratic and/or governmental forms, found words, street scene quotation, your Aunt May's recipes, excerpts from your senior prom program... whatever fancy and artisanship dictate. Just... surprise us. send work via email to: mcgrand@mit.edu or to jordanh@mainlink.net send via snailm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:36:36 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: Re: Textual Abuse Content-Type: text/plain well, I've been slow in reading my list mail lately so sorry if I'm coming in at a bad time... as far as editors go... 1. great way to circumvent all that "voice of the poet" stuff without even trying 2. and if you want to work with some real chance operations, let it go to print without looking at it, let somebody else re-lineate everything for you, I used to think it would be interesting to just let other people rewrite poems with my name on them (someday we will kill the author, but it's tough when the "Economist" and the "Guerilla Girls" are some of the only people on your side, they'll never work together) I know this may seem a little flippant, but I am serious...as to whomever had an essay printed after they said "don't print this" that's very wrong...in the business world you would sue them, but in our world there's nothing to sue for I guess All in all, if you find a good editor stick with, Elliot didn't and we ended up with "Cats." I'm far too silly today to be posting today, apologies, apologies. Jamie ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:44:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: thoughts on memory everyone -- said in earlier message that i missed you, and one of the times i missed you MOST was when i took on entire cuis issue one month to give jordie a break. it was themed around memory, and i did the following editorial. i DESPARATELY wanted your thoughtful, insightful commentary before posting, but in absence of that, here is what went up. thoughs whoops thoughts on it anyone? Editorial for the Memory Issue The shape we make of the past forms our interpretation of the present and prophesies the future. What we remember is what remains in our mind, not what happened. Whether a memory is an accurate representation of past events, a distortion, a partial representation, or a partial distortion, it is only a facet (or at best a few facets) of the complex, three-dimensional imago, one of the transformations of the equation of a fractal shape from gigi-second to gigi-second, twenty-four hours to twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes to fifteen minutes. Art -- a poem, a short story, a drawing -- can capture one full quick slice of a multi-dimensioned reality either as it is happening, as it might happen, as it happened, as it will happen, or as it could have happened. Art can pick out one facet to follow through the loops and inside-outs of a stream of time. Someone told me once that we remember only what we tell. When we write, or draw, we are telling, and we are also telling something as if it were a memory, making a memory out of an imagined memory, putting a real memory through the filter of imagination. What is both frightening and comforting somehow is that when reading or writing, the cenotaph, the representation of a memory of what may have happened, or never happened, can draw us into another line of memory -- someone else's memories. I read when I am miserable to exist somewhere besides in myself. I read when I am elated to merge with other elations. Each work is part of memory -- memory passing, memory recaught, memory in process, writing as a process of memory, writing as an artifact of memory, the act of memory as an act of forgetting or of living or of making a death. A writer making memory from everyone else's words, a writer making her own words into everyone else's memory. The tick, tick, tock, of a mind forgetting, forgetting and trying to hold one true thing. Memory. Cenotaph. Imago. Eidolon. Ideograph. False. Repressed. Dissociate. Eidetic. Mimetic. Remember. Recollect. Recall. Reminisce. Regress. Anaphora. Pentimento. Inchoate. Anima. Disarticulate. is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:14:32 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: Remap ing the horizon with theme Comments: To: Simon/Piombino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry for the name/sake mix-up. To share with the list also: here's the thematic reason--rather than just create a collection of poems in a magazine format--Carolyn Kemp and I decided that a thematic base allows a certain dialogue to resonate between poems. Especially in small publications like ours--we wanted to avoid a "collection of stuff we like"--which we felt some magazines do do. THe theme then (as in #6--politics--) is an engagement with the notion of themes. Think of architecture--one needs a site rather than a building or house. The site then enters into a dialogue with the building rather than the building being just "placed" on the site. (Thinking of Neutra or Schindler's idea --the Louis Sullivan buildings or Wrights "organic machine" that a house must be...) . Anyway--and also-- years later someone mightpull down a ReMap or other magazine and see what--say--politics or food or nature editions we did and (hopefully) see a dialogue there between the work, the magazine, and the reader. the poems then don't have to be "about" the theme, but rather--about--as in--he's about the house. At least that's ReMap's idea. What do you (all) think? Todd Baron ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:17:22 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: Rilke? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > > Anyone have any recommendations on translations of Rilke? I have a twenty > year old edition of the sonnets and elegies translated by Poulin, which I > have never liked, despite the blurbs on the back by such luminaries as > Lowell, Ignatow, Dickey, and Kunitz. My German is weak, and I don't > respond well to the "yoo hoo" school of Rilke translation. > > In a similar vein, I am looking for lucid essay(s) on Rilke, explaining > his significance to modern poetry as a whole. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Stephen Miitchell's translations have always seemed wonderful to me... Todd B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:18:46 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit apologies: the e-mail i sent on "thematic" issues was a response to the question "Why do editors like Themes?" TB ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: exercise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is an exercise invented perhaps by Bernadette Mayers, which I found in In the American Tree: have your friend write poems in "your" voice. (Of course this would be a deliberate experiment and not a random mangling by some third party editor) What charmed me about the experiment was the idea that one would have all these poet friends who would both know one's work and be able to pull off a convincing imitation. And of course one would have to have a distinctive enough style in the first place, so that the poems would be recognizably yours even if written by someone else. Could this rise above parody and pastiche of the more obvious sort? May be. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Fanny Howe in San Francisco! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46anny Howe launches Small Press Traffic's new weekend =B3residency=B2 program, Life/Forms: New Ways to See It, New Ways to Say It =46anny Howe Reading =46riday, September 25, 7:30 p.m. New College Theater 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 =46anny Howe Salon Saturday, September 26 1:00-3:00 p.m. Lunch with Fanny at Cafe Bravo 663 Valencia (between 17th and 18th), San Francisco Stop by for great coffee, conversation, cheap food. =46anny Howe Talk Saturday, September 26, 7:30 p.m. =B3Bewilderment,=B2 a Way of Being, Seeing, Thinking and Working New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street , San Francisco $5 We are very pleased to begin our new program with one of our favorite writers, the inimitable Fanny Howe. Fanny Howe has written twenty books of fiction and poetry, including The Deep North, The Lives of a Spirit, Poem from a Single Pallet, The Quietist, Robeson Street, O=B9Clock, and Saving History. Her most recent is Nod from Sun and Moon Books. She has won two NEA awards and is a Fellow of the Bunting Institute. She teaches writing and American literature at UCSD. She is both of the earth and high above it, her writing touches on the spirit, the body and the complicated social and political frames both quarrel in. When I get in a jam, I always try to remember to ask myself, =B3In this situation what would Fanny Howe do?=B2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:00:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: thoughts on memory In-Reply-To: <199809222244.SAA28040@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Eliza McGrand wrote: > > Someone told me once that we remember only what we tell. When we write, > or draw, we are telling, and we are also telling something as if it > were a memory, making a memory out of an imagined memory, putting a > real memory through the filter of imagination. What is both > frightening and comforting somehow is that when reading or writing, > the cenotaph, the representation of a memory of what may have happened, > or never happened, can draw us into another line of memory -- someone > else's memories. I read when I am miserable to exist somewhere > besides in myself. I read when I am elated to merge with other > elations. > Just want to say, I disagree with this - what we tell _shapes_ memory by constituting it within consciousness (Sartre's Psychology of Imag. goes into this) - but so much memory is untold - so much is within the _body_ itself, not constituted in any way by language or by practice. Drew Leder's The Absent Body, one of my favorites, comes to mind. There is so much reliance placed on/within language these days! As if the mind were email (you're not saying this, I know), as if ascii run rampant through columnar neural arrays. It's what's overlooked, what's not there, that's important. What broils through dreams, wavering structures that may or may not make sense, become sensate. And other than Lacan's saying more or less it's so, I don't see the unconscious structured like a language, no matter what distant shores the +like+ is relegated to. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:07:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: metallurgy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maria & others, This was probably taken for granted in earlier remarks about Blake, so forgive me for stating the obvious, but the fact that Blake often wrote directly on metal & stone -- that is, on lithographic plates instead of paper -- seems relevant. Among other things, how to reconcile the material resistance of the medium (lithographic texts must of course be written backwards, laboriously) with Blake's version of automatic writing in which, as a medium himself for occult forces, he attempts to offer no resistance? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:26:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Augh, am I the only one with a virulent allergy to Stephen Mitchell's versions of almost anything? We compared "Herbsttag" (Autumn Day) once on another list--here's Rilke, then Mitchell, then M.D. Herter Norton (whose _Translations from the Poetry of RMR_ is worth owning, though there may be something better): Herbsttag Herr: es ist Zeit. der Sommer war sehr groß. Leg deinen Schatten auf die Sonnenuhren, und suf den Fluren laß die Winde los. Befiehl den letzten Früchten voll zu sein; gieb ihnen noch zwei südlichere Tage, dränge sie zur Vollendung hin und jage die letzte Süße in den schweren Wein. Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben und wird in den Allen hin und her unruhig wandern, wenn die Blätter treiben. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord: it is time. The huge summer has gone by. Now overlap the sundials with your shadows, and on the meadows let the wind go free. Command the fruits to swell on tree and vine; grant them a few more warm transparent days, urge them on to fulfillment then, and press the final sweetness into the heavy wine. Whoever has no house now, will never have one. Whoever is alone will stay alone, will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, and wander on the boulevards, up and down, restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. tr. Stephen Mitchell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord, it is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds go loose. Command the last fruits that they shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them on to fulfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavy wine. Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, long will so remain, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. tr. M.D. Herter Norton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:33:59 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: I Sing the Body Apoplectic Content-Type: text/plain One presumes he was thinking of the book's mild sexual references-- it's been banned now & again. All of which probably proves this guy's never read it. --Mark DuCharme >here's a new low of some kind -- last night, as the talking heads had at >the Clinton tapes, the conversation turned to the question of whether or >not Clinton was to be believed when he said he didn't think the matter of >the gifts he'd exchanged with Lewinski was anything to worry much >about. > > >One Mark Braden, former Chief Counsel to the Republican National >Committee, turned literary critic on us: > > >Braden: > >left"Do I beleive he's telling the truth? The >answer is, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense. I give . . . >Leaves of Grass is not the type of gift one would >normally give to some young intern that works in your office. It's not >that type of gift." > > >Now, that's remarkable -- The good grey bard as prima facie >evidence of perjury! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:40:51 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Rilke Content-Type: text/plain Augh, am I the only one with a virulent allergy to Stephen Mitchell's versions of almost anything?-- R. Loden No, Rachel, you are not. Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:41:48 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: brannen Content-Type: text/plain Thanks to Henry, Bob & Charles for responding to my query about Jonathan Brannen. Cheers, Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:54:37 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And here's Bill Gates' version (courtesy of MS Word's spellchecker): Herb's tag Heir: is sit zest. Deer sombre war sheer gross. Leg denizen station auk sine sauna neurone, undo of den florin lass die windy louse. Befell den lesson further vole zoo sienna; gibe inhere notch sew suede lichen tag, drainage she fur volley dung hind undue jade die latest Sussex in den shrewd weenie. Where jets Kevin hauls hat, baud Sikh keenness mohair. Wear jets alien sit, wired is flange bellboy, wiry wheaten, lesion, lunge brief shriven undo wild in den alley hid undue her unhurried wander, wean die bladder tribune. Cheers, Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:39:21 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: University of Auckland Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maria, you asked: > hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of > "human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal > over the course of time, the endpoin tof which would be some kind of > multimedia "docoment," possibly a piece of metal w/ an inscription. i've > suggested he read lorine niedecker, christian bok's crystallography, clark > coolidge's the crystal text and paul metcalf's work, for tastes of how > poets "materialize" verbally certain materials. and he's reading, of > course, bachelard. but does anyone know of texts or writers who are > specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? thanks in > advance, and thanks also for the many responses to my "many queries" of > about a month ago. bests, md You could have a look at Lawrence Weiner's work. This conceptual artist says his work is not poetry, but he's no expert. I think he is, and he's done a range of texts as metal plaques permanently installed in the outside walls of musems, set into pavements in Amsterdam and elsewhere. Jenny Holzer, whose not so good a poet has however also done metal plaques. wystan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:57:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: query: poetics of metallurgy In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Maria Damon (Maria Damon) wrote: > >> hey all, an architect wants to do a directed study w/ me on the poetics of >> "human verdigris," that is, the effect of human touch, life, etc on metal >> over the course of time [...] >> does anyone know of texts or writers who are >> specifically interested in metals to whom i can refer him? > >Peter Riley, _Two Essays_ (Grossteste, 1983) (the first of these is "Note >on Vein Forms," about minerology: "It is a fluid substance, always >bending and drooping and melting, oxydising and dissolving....This >animal-like quality is in conflict with the static qualities of stone or >even wood, which are also integral to human sense") > >Peter Riley, _Tracks and Mineshafts_ (Grossteste, 1983) (poems: "The >fuzzily scanned futures of our acts / become a chalky rubble under our >feet, / crumbling downgrade, offer and result / of protection from >climate, horizontal / bone web across the rim of hope, we / sink in it, >down to the ocean floor") > >Two sadly forgotten books > >Ben F. via Carla B. See also J. H. Prynne, "A Note On Metal" (1968) in _Poems_ (Agneau 2, 1982) KT ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:54:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Rilke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, I've always thought that "Stephen Mitchell" was the name an electronic translation program generated by Harper Collins or Random House or one of those big publishing houses. It basically works by translating anything that you feed into it into what is called "New Age American", an artificial language that is always vaguely familiar if not accurate. GT >Augh, am I the only one with a virulent allergy to Stephen Mitchell's >versions of almost anything?-- R. Loden > > >No, Rachel, you are not. > > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com > >DO NOT RESPOND to >Tottels@Hotmail.com >It is for listservs only. > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: metallurgy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques Debrot wrote: > > Maria & others, > > This was probably taken for granted in earlier remarks about Blake, so forgive > me for stating the obvious, but the fact that Blake often wrote directly on > metal & stone -- that is, on lithographic plates instead of paper -- seems > relevant. Among other things, how to reconcile the material resistance of the > medium (lithographic texts must of course be written backwards, laboriously) > with Blake's version of automatic writing in which, as a medium himself for > occult forces, he attempts to offer no resistance? Jacques, Do you know any examples of stone lithography by Blake? Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: thoughts on memory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Alan. For my money memory is in the act of _____. The ease of the action in computerese might then explain the mindless 'news' wildfires we see all the time on the internet. (You can include this post as an example if you're so inclined. I'm not in a great mood tonight). tom bell A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Eliza McGrand wrote: > > > > Just want to say, I disagree with this - what we tell _shapes_ memory by > constituting it within consciousness (Sartre's Psychology of Imag. goes > into this) - but so much memory is untold - so much is within the _body_ > itself, not constituted in any way by language or by practice. Drew > Leder's The Absent Body, one of my favorites, comes to mind. > > There is so much reliance placed on/within language these days! As if the > mind were email (you're not saying this, I know), as if ascii run rampant > through columnar neural arrays. It's what's overlooked, what's not there, > that's important. What broils through dreams, wavering structures that may > or may not make sense, become sensate. And other than Lacan's saying more > or less it's so, I don't see the unconscious structured like a language, > no matter what distant shores the +like+ is relegated to. > > Alan -- http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Rilke In-Reply-To: <3608404A.1FA33186@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks, Rachel, I needed that opinion & comparison. And to the others who recommended or unrecommended translations of Rilke, thanks as well. Not to single Stephen Mitchell out, but I think the larger problem is that most translators are content with very little--a sort of flat, generic translatorese. And then they wax grandiose citing Walter Benjamin. And they call this "writing a good poem in English." I was looking for more of a Pound-style translation, one that actually could make this claim in all seriousness. I guess I want translations that pay attention to L+A+N+G+U+A+G+E. Some people accept much less from translations because they know that they are translations. I have always refused to do so, and have gotten a lot of grief (or perhaps given grief to others). I remember Bly at at a reading years ago. He said "Here, I've translated Machado into William Carlos Williams." But he hadn't really, of course. There was none of Williams' crispness and concern with form in what he had done. Jonathan Ellsworth Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Rilke, Norton, and a new version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I've also been unsettled by Stephen Mitchell's translations, enjoyable as = they are, because it's quite obvious that none of the tone, diction, voice, etc= . (of Rilke's original) remains. What we're left with may be wonderful poem= s, but only "Rilke-inspired." Anyway, after going over Rachel Loden's offeri= ng of M.D. Herter Norton's translation, and the original (although I don't speak/read German), I found Norton's work to be so much more faithful to Rilke's sounds, rhythms, and diction (as near as I can tell). Yet, I'm un= sure about various phrases, like the use of "thy" rather than "your" in the fir= st stanza's 2nd line, or the convoluted "long will so remain" in the last stanza's 2nd line. So, in my ignorance and naivete, I changed Norton's translation a touch, and wonder if there are are any German-speaking poets= who might comment on whether the changes are more (or less) faithful to the original, or at least manage to avoid archaicisms that Rilke might not hav= e intended: Lord, it is time. The summer was so big. Lay your shadow on the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds loose. Command the last fruits that they be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them on to fullfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavy wine. Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, will long remain so, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. In a message dated 9/22/98 8:28:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rloden@concentric.net writes: << Augh, am I the only one with a virulent allergy to Stephen Mitchell's versions of almost anything? We compared "Herbsttag" (Autumn Day) once on another list--here's Rilke, then Mitchell, then M.D. Herter Norton (whose _Translations from the Poetry of RMR_ is worth owning, though there may be something better): Herbsttag Herr: es ist Zeit. der Sommer war sehr gro=DF. Leg deinen Schatten auf die Sonnenuhren, und suf den Fluren la=DF die Winde los. Befiehl den letzten Fr=FCchten voll zu sein; gieb ihnen noch zwei s=FCdlichere Tage, dr=E4nge sie zur Vollendung hin und jage die letzte S=FC=DFe in den schweren Wein. Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben und wird in den Allen hin und her unruhig wandern, wenn die Bl=E4tter treiben. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord: it is time. The huge summer has gone by. Now overlap the sundials with your shadows, and on the meadows let the wind go free. Command the fruits to swell on tree and vine; grant them a few more warm transparent days, urge them on to fulfillment then, and press the final sweetness into the heavy wine. Whoever has no house now, will never have one. Whoever is alone will stay alone, will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, and wander on the boulevards, up and down, restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. tr. Stephen Mitchell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord, it is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds go loose. Command the last fruits that they shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them on to fulfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavy wine. Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, long will so remain, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. tr. M.D. Herter Norton >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:06:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jessica Smith Subject: Re: Rilke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I still think that Stephen Mitchell (whether man or machine) is a good translator. Both of the books I have also contain the Spanish (Neruda) and German (Rilke) untranslated. I know enough german and enough poetry to vie for Mitchell's translation of Rilke... it is poetic, it is a good, fair translation. Far too much complaining and snobbery go on on this list. Be fair. If you don't know German well enough to do your own translations, don't judge another's translations. If you have "heard" something about a translator, read him yourself before making judgemental statements. If Rilke does not sound enough like, say, Pound, to you, in a translation, well, that is because Rilke is not Pound. I think that no matter what translation you choose, you should try to obtain one with a side-by-side printing of German and English, so that when you are doing in-depth study of, say, diction, you can find out the connotations of the original words without depending on a middleman. J. Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:08:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Rilke - C.F. MacIntyre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable And here's a third version (besides Stephen Mitchell's and M.D. Herder Norton's) of Rilke's poem "Autumn Day," or "Herbsttag": Autumn Day (tr. C.F. MacIntyre) Lord, it is time. The summer was too long. Lay now thy shadow over the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds blow strong. Bid the last fruit to ripen on the vine; allow them still two friendly southern days to bring them to perfection and to force the final sweetness in the heavy wine. Who has no house now will not build him one. Who is alone now will be long alone, will waken, read, and write long letters and through the barren pathways up and down restlessly wander when dead leaves are blown. ---(for my taste, I prefer Norton's work to either MacIntyre's or Mitchell= 's, because it seems far closer to Rilke's original, and I'd rather deal with = some convolutions in the English, so that I get a taste of the German, than hav= e the poem overly-sweetened and watered down and homogenized, etc., etc., et= c.) In a message dated 9/22/98 8:28:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rloden@concentric.net writes: << Augh, am I the only one with a virulent allergy to Stephen Mitchell's versions of almost anything? We compared "Herbsttag" (Autumn Day) once on another list--here's Rilke, then Mitchell, then M.D. Herter Norton (whose _Translations from the Poetry of RMR_ is worth owning, though there may be something better): Herbsttag Herr: es ist Zeit. der Sommer war sehr gro=DF. Leg deinen Schatten auf die Sonnenuhren, und suf den Fluren la=DF die Winde los. Befiehl den letzten Fr=FCchten voll zu sein; gieb ihnen noch zwei s=FCdlichere Tage, dr=E4nge sie zur Vollendung hin und jage die letzte S=FC=DFe in den schweren Wein. Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben und wird in den Allen hin und her unruhig wandern, wenn die Bl=E4tter treiben. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord: it is time. The huge summer has gone by. Now overlap the sundials with your shadows, and on the meadows let the wind go free. Command the fruits to swell on tree and vine; grant them a few more warm transparent days, urge them on to fulfillment then, and press the final sweetness into the heavy wine. Whoever has no house now, will never have one. Whoever is alone will stay alone, will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, and wander on the boulevards, up and down, restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. tr. Stephen Mitchell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord, it is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds go loose. Command the last fruits that they shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them on to fulfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavy wine. Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, long will so remain, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. tr. M.D. Herter Norton >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:12:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jessica Smith Subject: Re: Rilke, Norton, and a new version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit word-by-word translation is not the same as poetic translation. if you want a word-by-word translation you can buy a German dictionary and do it yourself. if you want a real translation, language to language, a word-by-word translation such as Norton's isn't what you're looking for. Remember that German is not just "other words for English" but actually a separate language with phrases that, when directly translated, do not convey the intent of the author. "Translation" does not mean A=A. There are incongruencies that will exist. Which is why a poetic translation such as Mitchell's conveys the poetics of the original document. This may be a bad thing to bring up since none of you seem to like Pinsky, but his translation of Dante's Inferno is a good example of a poetic translation that is not a word-for-word translation but is in fact more effective and more true to the original document. J. Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:14:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jessica Smith Subject: Re: Rilke - C.F. MacIntyre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I think this is a very good translation. J. Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Rilke, Norton, and a new version Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Jessica Smith wrote: >This may be a bad thing to bring up since none of you seem to like Pinsky,= but >his translation of Dante's Inferno is a good example of a poetic translati= on >that is not a word-for-word translation but is in fact more effective and = more >true to the original document. hmm, for translation into dead lingos Pinsky's Dante compares favorably to Bly's Rilke though the results are on opposite poles: pinsky's soporific & Bly emetic. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:38:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Rilke, Norton, and a new version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/22/98 11:13:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JSmith4985@AOL.COM writes: << Which is why a poetic translation such as Mitchell's conveys the poetics of the original document. >> How do you know? And what do you mean by "the poetics"? I'm in complete understanding that translations are not meant to be literal, "word-by-word" renditions, as you protested. However, I prefer having a translation that transmits as much as possible of the cadence, the diction, the tonality, of the original. I don't prefer a translation, at least when attempting to become acquainted with a poet's work, that exercises great latitude in these areas. However, once I'm reasonably acquainted with a poet's work, and have a good sense of their poetics, their aesthetics, and some of the flavor of the language and personal diction that they're working in, I love to read more generously interpretive translations, such as Mitchell's. I love to read three, four, five translations of the same poem. But please...if we're not going to get books that have a three-fold translation process [Part One: the original; Part Two: a "literal" translation (or as close to literal as possible); and, Part Three: the translator's interpretation of the poem]----then, I prefer to BEGIN with something that is as close to the original as possible, taking the fewest liberties. I don't need to read the poem in a smooth version of English as an entry-point into the writer's work. The "smooth" version is desirable at a later point, I think. Anyway....I don't think that the various frustrations you're seeing folks express about translations can be reduced to snobbery. It's just a very hoary, hairy, hellish situation we're all dealing with, each in our own way. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:39:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Rilke - C.F. MacIntyre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/22/98 11:22:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JSmith4985@AOL.COM writes: << I think this is a very good translation. J. Smith >> Why? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:26:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New @ Bridge Street, Spicer Lectures, O Books, Poetics Journal, &&& Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Discount/ordering information at the end of the list, thanks poetix for your supports. 1. _Chain / 5: different languages_, ed Osman, Spahr, Zweig, $12. Contributors include Alcala, Biarujia, Bodakov, Braune, Brossard, Burns, Burt, Chung, Debrot, Doris, DuPlessis, Glancy, Gordon, Gough, Hahn, Havelda, Kim, MacLeod, Mac Low, Magee, Maiolino, Smith Nash, Prevallet, Robinson, Schaefer, Scott, Stecopoulos, Striker, Strickland, Tardos, Tysh, Torres, Waldman, Wallace &&&. 2. _Poem On A Train_, Jordan Davis, Barque Books, $6. "She's right you have to want something / To get it I want to be good" 3. _Deleuze and Guattari: New Mappings in Politics, Philosophy, and Culture_, ed. Eleanor Kaufman and Kevin Jon Heller, U Minnesota, $19.95. Deleuze, Michael Hardt, Brian Massumi, Eugene W. Holland, Jonathan L. Beller, Bernardo Alexander Attias, John S. Howard, Samira Kawash, Bruno Bosteels, Gary Genesko, Brian Reynolds, Timothy S. Murphy, Eleanor Kaufman, Daniel W. Smith, Asen Evans, & Mani Haghighi. 4. _Reistances of Psychoanalysis_, Jacques Derrida, Stanford, $14.95. 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"And there we were, in the shadow of the poshest most elaborate shopping mall in all of Paraguay." 10. _Criteria_, Sianne Ngai, O Books, $10. "to be a thing // crushed by the dark weight of other things / is turning someone on / or developing into a fine prose style" 11. _American Rush: Selected Poems_, Maureen Owen, Talisman House, $15.95. "And to think of the Grande Affaire I gave up for it! Lawdy!" 12. _Poetics Journal 10: Knowledge_, ed Lyn Hejinian & Barrett Watten, $14. Pierre Alferi, Ted Pearson, Joan Retallack, Michael Davidson, Lorenzo Thomas, Leslie Scalapino, Daniel Davidson, Arkaii Dragomoshchenko, Ilya Kutik, George Hartley, Kit Robinson, Chris Tysh, Rod Smith, Dennis Barone, John Smith, Herman Rapaport, Reva Wolf, Ron Silliman, David Benedeti, Carla Harryman, Robert Gluck, Rodrigo Toscano, Hung Q. Tu, Ron Day, Jim Rosenberg, Pamela Lu, Travis Ortiz, Lytle Shaw, Dodie Bellamy, Lisa Samuels, Micahel Gottlieb, Michael Amnasan, Aaron Shurin, & Steve Evans. 13. _Soap_, Francis Ponge, trans. Lane Dunlop, Stanford, $14.95. "Violent desire to wash one's hands." 14. _Ogling Anchor_, Christopher Reiner, Avec, $10. "Sent to appear as verse in more tender ancestors improved short of frustration reverent, excessive craniums, stopping to take in (our) distant prospect." 15. _Surrealist Women: An International Anthology_, ed Penelope Rosemont, Univ of Texas, $19.95. 97 contributors from 28 countries from the 1920s to the present including Nancy Cunard, Nadja, Suzanne Muzard, Meret Oppenheim, Leonora Carrington, Frida Kahlo, Gertrude Pape, Ida Kar, Elisa Breton, Mimi Parent, & Rikki Ducornet. 16. _The Seven Voices_, Lisa Samuels, O Books, $10. "Coendurance of pleasure with surety / emasculates many raptures, / the create within creatures" 17. _Shark 1: the pre-poetic_, ed Lytle Shaw and Emily Clark, $8. New biannual of poetics & art criticism. Pamela Lu, Adam DeGraff, Leslie Scalapino, Kevin Killian, Alex Cory, Lyn Hejinian, Mark Shepard, Dodie Bellamy, Craig Dworkin, Eugene Ostashevsky, Dmity Golykno-Volfson, Katy Lederer, Laura Moriarty, Gregg Biglieri, Robert Hale, & Mary Burger. 18. _Talking About a Revolution_, ed South End Press Collective, South End Press, $14. Interviews with Michael Albert, Noam Chomsky, Barbara Ehrenreich, bell hooks, Peter Kwong, Winona Laduke, Manning Marable, Urvashi Vaid, & Howard Zinn. 19. _The House That Jack Built: The Collected Lectures of Jack Spicer_, ed w/ afterword by Peter Gizzi, Wesleyan, $18.95. "Q: Then let me ask you who are you vulnerable to? JS: Ghosts." 20. _Anamorphosis Eisenhower_, Sam Truitt, Lost Roads, $12. "I look into the bathroom. The candle is burning" 21. _The Virilio Reader_, ed James Der Derian, Blackwell, $24.95. 22. _UTOPISTICS, or Historical Choices of the Twenty-First Century_, Immanuel Wallerstein, New Press, $12.95. Some Bestsellers: _Poet Be Like God: Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance_, Lew Ellingham and Kevin Killian, Wesleyan, $35. _Mysteries of Small Houses_, Alice Notley, Penguin, $14.95. _The Letters of Mina Harker_, Dodie Bellamy, Hard Press, $13.95. _Another Smashed Pinecone_, Bernadette Mayer, United Artists, $10. _Wakefulness_, John Ashbery, FSG, $20. _Close Listening: Poetry and the Performed Word_, Charles Bernstein ed., Oxford, $24.95. _Works & Days_, Bill Luoma, The Figures, $15. _The Lion Bridge: Selected Poems 1972-1995_, Michael Palmer, New Directions, $18.95. _Poetry On & Off the Page: Essays for Emergent Occasions_, Marjorie Perloff, Northwestern, $19.95. _Life & Death_, Robert Creeley, New Directions, $19.95. _An Anthology of New (American) Poets_, Lisa Jarnot, Leonard Schwartz, and Chris Stroffolino ed, Talisman, $21.95. _Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women_, ed. Mary Margaret Sloan, Talisman, $27.95. _My Futurist Years_, Roman Jakobson, Marsilio, $19.95. _Tripwire: a journal of poetics_, ed Yedda Morrison & David Buuck, $6. _Artificial Heart_, Peter Gizzi, Burning Deck, $10. _Revolution of the Word: A New Gathering of American Avant Garde Poetry 1914-1945, ed. Jerome Rothenberg, Exact Change, $15.95. _Sound States: Innovative Poetics and Acoustic Technologies_, ed A. Morris, $24.95. _Guy Debord--Revolutionary: A Critical Biography_, Len Bracken, $14.95. _Raddle Moon 16: 22 New French Writers_, $10. _Perhaps this is a rescue fantasy_, Heather Fuller, $10. _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_, Mark Wallace, $9.50. _Collected Prose_, Charles Olson, $19.95. Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, & card # & we will send a receipt with the books. We must charge some shipping for orders out of the US. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:42:48 -0400 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Rilke & translation In-Reply-To: <199809230405.AAA21193@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII no one has mentioned edward snow, who has done the two volumes of the neue gedichte as well as the recently-published "uncollected poems" (perhaps other volumes as well -- these off the top of my head). the puzzling fact about rilke in english -- of the high modernist german poets he's arguably the most "influential", yet we have no one in english that has taken on the complete rilke corpus. (at least for stefan george there is, tho it's long out of print and the german is not printed en face with the english; that we lack this for trakl is also lamentable...) ((p.s. to pierre j: when can we expect celan's threadsuns and lightcompulsion?)) i always try to read poets in multiple translations simultaneously: individually they are always lacking, together they can begin to complement the natural defaut des langages (mallarme cum benjamin). tom orange ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:54:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Textual Abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James Perez writes: >2. and if you want to work with some real chance operations, let it go >to print without looking at it, let somebody else re-lineate everything >for you, I used to think it would be interesting to just let other >people rewrite poems with my name on them (someday we will kill the >author, but it's tough when the "Economist" and the "Guerilla Girls" are >some of the only people on your side, they'll never work together) Actually, Bernadette Mayer's book _Moving_ was given to the printer with the request that he set the lines off the right and left margin ("raggedy," was her term) in a random fashion. So that the book that now appears was given its from by a printer, rather than Mayer itself. Chance operation indeed... Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: welcome back, Eliza! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me go front-channel to say how glad I am to see you back with us Listafarians (a Ron Silliman coinage, I believe)....I missed you and I'm sure many of us did. I worried about you. Good to hear from you, and good to know Free Cuisineart whirrs on. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:07:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: island writing reading report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mainland poet Susan Schultz and mainland poet I organized this island writing conference with a few other people mainland writers. It was this weekend at the University of Hawai'i, Manoa. On Thursday local poet Kathy Banggo answered some questions and Hawaiian playwright Alani Apio showed some video clips from his plays. The audience had lots of questions. Apio said he wanted the Hawaiian nation and saw revolution as the only way. Some concerns were expressed by various audience members about bloodshed and revolution. Some audience members came up to me while I was waiting outside for a ride home and complained to me after the talk. One said that he felt that as a white male that his opinion wasn't respected. Another person said they were from Manhattan and I just didn't understand things. I didn't really understand what either of these people were talking about. On Thursday night a reading was held for the new Bamboo Ridge collection called _Growing Up Local_. I wasn't able to attend. Maybe Bill Luoma, who did attend, could provide some insight. Friday night started with mainland novelist Bob Shachochis reading (some complaining by various authors caused the schedule to get rearranged). He is a writer for Harpers. He read a piece on Haiti. It ended with an exotic, full-lipped woman nursing her baby in some sort of place filled with dead bodies. He used lots of metaphors and long sentences. Bob was invited by the students who do the Hawaii Review. Then Kathy Banggo read some poems. She read some in standard English and then she read some in pidgin. When she read the ones in pidgin the audience laughed and clapped a lot. Her chapbook is available from Susan Schultz. It is lots of fun to read. Then Alani Apio read some poems and a few monologues. He read some poems about fishing. And one about "fake sleep" which he does so that his father can touch him. The monologues were really good. One was about a bunch of haoles coming and killing all the ahi in the character's family fishing shrine. I thinks his plays are interesting. He has written two plays in a trilogy. The first is about a character who has sold his land to a hotel and the hotel has given this character a tour guide job. In the second, a character comes out of jail and forms a sovereignty movement to reclaim the sold land. You can order the plays from him. If you email me I will send you his address. Then Samoan novelist Sia Figiel read. She read from her novel _Where We Once Belonged_. She had the giggles while reading the section about the haole teacher Miss Cunningham. The parts she read from the novel felt alive. She also read some poems from her new book. Someone,a fellow white female English teacher, asked me later where the trope of the white female English teacher originates in postcolonial literature. I said maybe in AFrican literature but I wasn't sure. The next day there were three talks. Bob Dylan did his sound check in the background. He was playing that evening at an outdoor stage next to the reading. Figiel read a talk from her new book about winning the commonwealth. Caribbean-Canadian poet Nourbese Philip read a talk about her writing and colonialism and language. Shachochis read from a novel. The novel was a story about a woman who leaves Kansas to join the peace corp. He said that it was his Miss Cunningham. He compared the woman in the novel to Figiel. Some people in the audience didn't like this and complained. They talked about power differentials. That evening mainland novelist who has lived in Hawai'i for several decades Ian McMillian read first. He read a story about a man and his canoe. The canoe was called the red wind. Then Nourbese Philip read. She started by reading a quote by a writer from Hawaii that said that the haoles were all uptight and never had sex while the Pacific Islanders and the Asians were having a good time all the time. She talked about s/kinship. Then she read part of a poetic essay from her new book. She also read some poems she had written earlier on islands. Then Samoan-American poet Caroline Sinaviana read. She read a poem that she dedicated to afro-germans. And a poem about Rudy in Paradise. This poem reminded me of the quote that Philip used to begin her reading. Then local novelist Lois Ann Yamanaka read. She read some parts that were cut by her editor from her forthcoming novel. She said she read for 15 minutes but it felt like only seconds. The audience laughed a lot. She also looked stunning in a long black skirt and shirt and vibrant orange lei. After the readings Apio got up and said he hadn't read McMillians' novel but that he felt that McMillian shouldn't write about things Hawaiian b/c it was appropriation. He also complained about McMillian's Hawaiian which he said wasn't accurate. McMillian said he believed in imagination. He said that Apio should read the novel b/c the characters was from New Jersey (although I must admit that the character did seem to have an Hawaiian name). Philip said that her attitude was that even if appropriation is wrong, if you can't legislate it you can't do anything about it. She said that the problem goes away when people from a certain group start writing. Then the appropriation doesn't matter b/c no one reads haole on things like Hawaiian canoes anymore. Yamanaka said to read the novel. She said people often made accusations without reading the novels. The audience laughed a lot at this line. A party was held after the reading with free beer and pupus. At the party the chair of my department, who is local, said to me that next year we could do a haole invasion conference and I could read. I laughed at the joke. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:27:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: metal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maria, you should check out the so-called orphic gold plates. which are gold leaves with incribed poems, hymns to help the dead person. they were buried with dead persons in greece of old. i forget how scholars date them. there is an interesting collection called fragmenta orphica i believe that would contain them. edited by one of those german philologists like wilamovitz. Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:19:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Rilke's Translators - What Does Each Offer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Here's an additional two translations of "Autumn Day," along with the Nort= on and Mitchell translations. What a trip, comparing these...it seems that e= ach translator can only meet limited criteria. For Arndt, recapturing Rilke's rhyme is paramount. For Bly, telling an accessible story might be the main objective; he's got such a mixture of strategies, it's hard to determine what's paramount. For MacIntyre, perhaps a gentle nudging of the original into a gentler Eng= lish syntax, and a generally delicate touch where interpretive ego and personal poetics is concerned, could characterize his implicit ambitions for the translation he offers. For Mitchell, a graceful lyric, with full accessibility to a particular ma= rket niche, and a certain somberly spiritual cadence, seems primary. And for Norton, as I've said before, a fairly literal translation that mat= ches the rhythm, tone, diction, and syntax of the original, seems most importan= t. None of the translators (except for Norton), seem to have been able to successfully meet multiple objectives (since they must inevitably conflict= ), and seem instead to have settled on what's most interesting, comfortable, marketable, or simply reflective of their own personalities. The additional translations: October Day (tr. Robert Bly) Oh Lord, it's time, it's time. It was a great summer. Lay your shadow now on the sundials, and on the open fields let the winds go! Give the tardy fruits the hint to fill; give them two more Mediterranean days, drive them on into their greatness, and press the final sweetness into the heavy wine. Whoever has no house by now will not build. Whoever is alone now will remain alone, will wait up, read, write long letters, and walk along sidewalks under large trees, not going home, as the leaves fall and blow away. Autumn Day (tr. Walter Arndt) Lord: it is time. Great was the summer's feast. Now lay upon the sun-dials your shadow And on the meadows have the winds released. Command the last of fruits to round their shapes; Grant two more days of south for vines to carry, To their perfection thrust them on, and harry The final sweetness into heavy grapes. Who has not built his house, will not start now. Who now is by himself will long be so, Be wakeful, read, write lengthy letters, go In vague disquiet pacing up and down Denuded lanes, with leaves adrift below. Autumn Day (tr. C.F. MacIntyre) Lord, it is time. The summer was too long. Lay now thy shadow over the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds blow strong. Bid the last fruit to ripen on the vine; allow them still two friendly southern days to bring them to perfection and to force the final sweetness in the heavy wine. Who has no house now will not build him one. Who is alone now will be long alone, will waken, read, and write long letters and through the barren pathways up and down restlessly wander when dead leaves are blown. ---(for my taste, I prefer Norton's work to either MacIntyre's or Mitchel= l's, because it seems far closer to Rilke's original, and I'd rather deal with = some convolutions in the English, so that I get a taste of the German, than hav= e the poem overly-sweetened and watered down and homogenized, etc., etc., et= c.) Herbsttag Herr: es ist Zeit. der Sommer war sehr gro=DF. Leg deinen Schatten auf die Sonnenuhren, und suf den Fluren la=DF die Winde los. Befiehl den letzten Fr=FCchten voll zu sein; gieb ihnen noch zwei s=FCdlichere Tage, dr=E4nge sie zur Vollendung hin und jage die letzte S=FC=DFe in den schweren Wein. Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben und wird in den Allen hin und her unruhig wandern, wenn die Bl=E4tter treiben. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord: it is time. The huge summer has gone by. Now overlap the sundials with your shadows, and on the meadows let the wind go free. Command the fruits to swell on tree and vine; grant them a few more warm transparent days, urge them on to fulfillment then, and press the final sweetness into the heavy wine. Whoever has no house now, will never have one. Whoever is alone will stay alone, will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, and wander on the boulevards, up and down, restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. tr. Stephen Mitchell ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Autumn Day Lord, it is time. The summer was very big. Lay thy shadow on the sundials, and on the meadows let the winds go loose. Command the last fruits that they shall be full; give them another two more southerly days, press them on to fulfillment and drive the last sweetness into the heavy wine. Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, long will so remain, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. tr. M.D. Herter Norton >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: McIntyre a Californian?! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fall Man, where'd the time go? Detroit?. But summer was really, really great. Stand that side of the sundial, will ya? I want to dig the shadows. Robert Duncan's freaking in the meadow. Those apples can't get a whole lot riper. Give em a couple more hot days. My friends who have the winery are already making the wine. It's getting chilly, nights. If you don't have a pad by now, Too bad. If you're not seeing someone You're likely stuck that way, they went back to school. Crack a book yourself. Write in Starbucks. Go walkabout downtown. [Time passes]. Hey, lookit the leaves, wind, etc. doing their thing. Rustle rustle. Contrast and compare yourself. Cool! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:26:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Rilke's Translators - What Does Each Offer? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Sep 1998 03:19:50 EDT from Here's a version by Eric Blarnes: Lord: it is time. The summer was so great. Lay down your shadow on the sundials; over the meadows let the wind blow. Goad the late grapes: ripen on the vine. Grant them two more southern days to come to perfection, and squeeze their sweet last into heavy wine. Whoever has no home now, will not find one and whoever is alone, will stay alone. Will stay awake, read, write long letters and wander the highways up and down - restless, while the leaves drift. - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:14:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dee morris Subject: Re: New @ Bridge Street, Spicer Lectures, O Books, Poetics Journal, &&& In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rod--Thanks for this great service! It's hard to find Chaiin the The Germ in Iowa City, I didn't know about New Mappings, and I can't wait to read Dura. Please bill me and I'll pay by return mail. Best to you, as ever. Dee >1. _Chain / 5: different languages_, ed Osman, Spahr, Zweig, $12. Contributors >include Alcala, Biarujia, Bodakov, Braune, Brossard, Burns, Burt, Chung, >Debrot, Doris, DuPlessis, Glancy, Gordon, Gough, Hahn, Havelda, Kim, MacLeod, >Mac Low, Magee, Maiolino, Smith Nash, Prevallet, Robinson, Schaefer, Scott, >Stecopoulos, Striker, Strickland, Tardos, Tysh, Torres, Waldman, Wallace &&&. > >3. _Deleuze and Guattari: New Mappings in Politics, Philosophy, and Culture_, >ed. Eleanor Kaufman and Kevin Jon Heller, U Minnesota, $19.95. Deleuze, >Michael Hardt, Brian Massumi, Eugene W. Holland, Jonathan L. Beller, Bernardo >Alexander Attias, John S. Howard, Samira Kawash, Bruno Bosteels, Gary Genesko, >Brian Reynolds, Timothy S. Murphy, Eleanor Kaufman, Daniel W. Smith, Asen >Evans, & Mani Haghighi. > >7. _The Germ #2_, ed. Macgregor Card & Andrew Maxwell, $6. Bernadette Mayer, >Anne Waldman, Elfriede Czurda, Lisa Isaacson, James Schuyler, Ray DiPalma, >Joyce Lightbody, Rod Smith, Lewis Warsh, Beth Anderson, George Albon, Devin >Johnston, Lisa Samuels, Brian Schorn, Anne Tardos, Chris Stroffolino, >Elizabeth Robinson, Nathaniel Mackey, Aaron Shurin, Perloff on Wellman, >Delville on Gins, Swensen on Gizzi, &&&. > >8. _Dura_, Myung Mi Kim, Sun & Moon, $11.95. "Mangy birds sing ornate songs." > > _Another Smashed Pinecone_, Bernadette Mayer, United Artists, $10. >_My Futurist Years_, Roman Jakobson, Marsilio, $19.95. > >Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping >+ 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. >1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill >you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 >or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, & card # & we will send a >receipt with the books. We must charge some shipping for orders out of the >US. > >Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Rilke In-Reply-To: <95a6c290.3608659c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pound would probably not be the ideal translator of Rilke. When I mentioned Pound, I was thinking of a translator who took language and poetry seriously. Mitchell produces readable versions of many poets, not at all a "bad" translator, but I don't feel like settling for mediocrity. As I said before, this earns me much grief. It is precisely those who don't know enough German who have the most* right to complain, I think. After all, we are the ones who need the translation! I agree it's not fair to single out Mitchell. After all, he is probably better than most. I don't know what Jessica means by "poetic," "fair," "vie," and "untranslated" in the post reprinted below: On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Jessica Smith wrote: > I still think that Stephen Mitchell (whether man or machine) is a good > translator. Both of the books I have also contain the Spanish (Neruda) and > German (Rilke) untranslated. I know enough german and enough poetry to vie > for Mitchell's translation of Rilke... it is poetic, it is a good, fair > translation. > > Far too much complaining and snobbery go on on this list. Be fair. If you > don't know German well enough to do your own translations, don't judge > another's translations. If you have "heard" something about a translator, > read him yourself before making judgemental statements. If Rilke does not > sound enough like, say, Pound, to you, in a translation, well, that is because > Rilke is not Pound. > > I think that no matter what translation you choose, you should try to obtain > one with a side-by-side printing of German and English, so that when you are > doing in-depth study of, say, diction, you can find out the connotations of > the original words without depending on a middleman. > > J. Smith > Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:25:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Hard Press Still With Us? In-Reply-To: <199809062107.RAA25196@nico.bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone know if Hard Press is still alive? It's been about a year since the last issue of _lingo_, and their Web site hasn't been updated in that time, either. Last I heard -- also about a year ago or longer -- was that they were in the midst of a fund-raising effort. (I've had a ms. under consideration there for *two years* because its fate is linked to the results of that effort.) It would be a shame if we were to lose such a fine outlet for innovative work. Which reminds me, I'd better get my Sun & Moon order in the mail... -- Fred M. ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:24:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Who if i called out would hear me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm a little out of date, and so have posted nothing on the Rilke thread. But I would agree with Rachel's post: the resonantly-named H.D. Herter-Norton is rather interesting. I grew up as a little fledgling poet, long long ago, reading Herter-Norton, who did much of R's work in a series of volumes, and C.F. McIntyre, who is also a rather interesting case. The best thing of all in my opinion is to use several of these translators and pick up a bit of the ol' teutonic, and try reading bits of originals. Rilke is astonshing for how the movement and thematic resonances of each poem embody themselves in sound. In my opinion McIntyre is still the best english version of the Duino Elegies. There are silly and odd turns of phrase, but that's not altogether inappropriate to that stunningly new, unprecedented work. McIntyre believed in trying to capture the rime and meter of the originals (and also other more fleeting alliterative and in general sonic effects) , and he always does so with a kind of ruthless determination, a kind of brashness, that makes most translators dull by comparison. He churned out selected volumes, usually for U. of Cal. Press i think, of a number of poets..Rilke, Mallarme, Verlaine. His way with Mallarme is quite interesting. Herter-Norton's books were all published by WW Norton, interestingly. Very different, and in some ways opposite. Some quite fascinating turns in the treatment of the Sonnets to Orpheus...which are done like most of the poems without any attempt to reproduce the endrimes (or sometimes the meter). These two translators were everywhere in used bookstores when i was growing up; no longer true now no doubt, but they will be pretty much ubiquitous in libraries of every type. Poulin has taken some hits, and rightly, probably. But I found it very useful when Greywolf Press(?) put out his bilingual four volumes of Rilke's very extensive work in French. The poems (if bijoux and "small") are superb and are typical Rilke poems using the resources of French instead of German. French is a language i have some claim to being able to read, rather than just muddle thru; rilke as frog is worth checking out for anyone in the same boat. Frankly i take it for granted that a poet as entirely himself and grounded in the physical specificities of his technique, as Rilke, cannot be gotten at too well in translators..altho' a multiplicity of translators helps. Personally, i find that german is not that hostile a language to muddle thru, in order to get at some of the feel of Rilke, Celan, and others. (Bilingual texts are the best way to start, for all that the english is never a trot but of course sometimes strays quite far from a literal rendering...) Over the years i've glanced at the recent translators, who've been mentioned, though only cursorily. I haveta say i'm *not* very impressed, when they are set next to the ones i grew up with...Tho' i'm sure they have certain strengths.. Mark P. @lanta ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:53:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: carrying Rilke over into english In-Reply-To: <199809230405.WAA13734@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well George Bowering would never say this, for, while always enjoying a joke he's otherwise unwilling to blow his own horn too loudly, but his terrific _Kerrisdale Elegies_ is a transmigration of Rilke that nevertheless manages to carry a lot of the mood of the original into a completely contemporary & Bowering-esque poetic sequence (being Bowering he shifts the acrobats into baseball players: wonderful) Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 How, but thru a monstrous 'specialism', the so-called authority of erstwhile 'professionsals', have we come to leave _breath_ out of images and _images_ out of breath, anyhow? Roy Kiyooka ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:11:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Reading Comments: To: core-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, This Sunday, September 27, just buffalo Literary Center begins its Writers at Work series with readings by Cecilia Vicuna Jorge Guitart Pablo Medina Time: 2 p.m. Place: Hallwall's, 2495 Main St. Cost: $6 general, $5 Students, $4 members See you there. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:13:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Rilke en Neuva York? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit INBOUND, 9/23/98 (for D.B.) Shit, I'm fucking late again & the subway reeks albeit less than last week, at least the air doesn't feel like it's strangling me At least all the fruit I bought at the bodega won't go bad today while I'm at work, at least I can drink wine or brandy tonight w/out feeling like I'm being strangled & need to puke. At least I'm on the lease, & at last can sit for an hour writing love letters & know no heat from the concrete below will give me vertigo, & at last the envelopes I fold each into will have a return address, where each can be returned. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:46:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: metal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maria -- Don't forget the Book of Mormon scribed on its plates. Hilton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: An interlinear translation In-Reply-To: <01BDE6E3.3EE96610@gps12@columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Gary Sullivan wrote: > INBOUND, 9/23/98 (for D.B.) > > Shit, I'm fucking late again & the subway reeks Joder, que llego otra vez con retraso e hiede el metro > albeit less than last week, at least aunque menos que la semana pasada, al menos > the air doesn't feel like it's strangling me el aire no siente ninUn deseo de estrangularme > At least all the fruit I bought at the bodega Al menos la fruta que comprE ayer en la bodega > won't go bad today while I'm at work, at least no se pudrirA hoy mientras trabajo, al menos podrE beber vino o conac esta noche > I can drink wine or brandy tonight > w/out feeling like I'm being strangled & need sin sentir que me estrangulen y que necesite > to puke. At least I'm on the lease, & at last vomitar. Al menos la casa estA en mi nombre y por fin > can sit for an hour writing love letters & know puedo sentarme un rato a escribir cartas de amor, sabiendo > no heat from the concrete below will give que ningUn calor subirA del asfalto dAndome > me vertigo, & at last the envelopes I fold each into vEertigo, y por fin los sobres en los que doblo cada una will have a return address, where each can be returned. tendrAn una direcciOn a la que puede ser devuelta. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:43:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: An interlinear translation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Jonathan. But, I realized, que hay solamente una correcion, last word, strike "return," add "rebuke." Gotta end on that harsh, Tuetonic-sounding "kuh." Muchas Gracias, --Gary On Wednesday, September 23, 1998 11:48 AM, MAYHEW [SMTP:jmayhew@EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU] wrote: > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Gary Sullivan wrote: > > > INBOUND, 9/23/98 (for D.B.) > > > > Shit, I'm fucking late again & the subway reeks > Joder, que llego otra vez con retraso e hiede el metro > > albeit less than last week, at least > aunque menos que la semana pasada, al menos > > the air doesn't feel like it's strangling me > el aire no siente ninUn deseo de estrangularme > > At least all the fruit I bought at the bodega > Al menos la fruta que comprE ayer en la bodega > > won't go bad today while I'm at work, at least > no se pudrirA hoy mientras trabajo, al menos > podrE beber vino o conac esta noche > > I can drink wine or brandy tonight > > w/out feeling like I'm being strangled & need > sin sentir que me estrangulen y que necesite > > to puke. At least I'm on the lease, & at last > vomitar. Al menos la casa estA en mi nombre y por fin > > can sit for an hour writing love letters & know > puedo sentarme un rato a escribir cartas de amor, sabiendo > > no heat from the concrete below will give > que ningUn calor subirA del asfalto dAndome > > me vertigo, & at last the envelopes I fold each into > vEertigo, y por fin los sobres en los que doblo cada una > will have a return address, where each can be returned. > tendrAn una direcciOn a la que puede ser devuelta. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:29:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have the Berrigan English version of "Herbsttag" handy? I remember it being... terrific. Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:31:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: berrigan's rilke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, in answer to the query about Berrigan's version of the Rilke poem. It was just on the shelf behind me, so here. AUTUMN'S DAY after Rilke Lord, it is time. Summer was very great. Now cast your shadow upon sundials. Let winds remind meadows it is late. Mellow now the last fruits on the vine. Allow them only two more southern days. Hasten them to fulness, and press The last heavy sweetness through the wine. Who has no home can not build now. Who dwells alone must now remain alone; Will waken, read, write long letters, and Will wander restlessly when leaves are blowing. Ted Berrigan charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:28:18 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Re: Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Berrigan Autumn's Day after Rilke Lord, it is time. Summer was very great. Now cast your shadow upon sundials. Let winds remind meadows it is late. Mellow now the last fruits on the vine. Allow them only two more southern days. Hasten them to fulness, and press The last heavy sweetness through the wine. Who has no home can not build now. Who dwells alone must now remain alone; Will waken, read, write long letters, and Will wander restlessly when leaves are blowing. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:32:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Homophonic translation of Mayhew's Sullivan's Bromige's McIntyre's Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (for Tom Beard) Joker, queue & let go all vexed cons, retry & hide the metro "auntie" means. The Queen of Seamen persuades all melons the air so sent nines, & does the strange arm all menus the fruit queues. Compare air in the bodega w/yr nose, pardner, hooey on mentors' traps, a whole menu poodles beer in Vienna & O cognac & gnocchi are "in." Centaur, queer me strangely, queer necessity's vomit. All menus are causal, except in my numbers & poor fins' speed. Central earn ratio a describer crates, these amorous sob endings queue nonagon caller's Subaru. Tell asphalt dandle vertigo, & my poor fin loss sobers in loss, queues doable caddie tuna, tendriling tuna's direction & what the queer puked seer divugled. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards Subject: REALITY STREET EDITIONS - new books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 REALITY STREET EDITIONS announces three new titles * MAURICE SCULLY: STEPS 1-874400-15-6 =A36.50 / $11 (estimated) 200 x 120mm paperback 72pp _Steps_ is book four of Maurice Scully's five-book set with the overall title of Livelihood. It is a work in three sections in verse and prose poetry, not a "collection" of discrete items but itself part of a large structure in which various steps are tested and taken to negotiate a survival worth having. Maurice Scully was born in Dublin in 1952. After some years in Italy, Africa and the west of Ireland, he re-settled with his wife and four children in Dublin, where he now teaches part-time at Dublin City University. Funding from Eastern Arts Board gratefully acknowledged. * KEN EDWARDS: FUTURES 1-874400-13-X =A36.99 / $12 (estimated) 200 x 120mm paperback 160pp _Futures_ is Ken Edwards' first published novel. It traces the paths take= n on her bicycle by the protagonist, Eye, across and out of an unnamed city= in the wake of an event she can't remember. Her quest is to face her terr= or and retrieve the fragments of her life, which lie in the future that neve= r quite arrives, until it does. Ken Edwards founded Reality Street Editions with Wendy Mulford. His poetr= y collections include _Good Science_ and _3,600 Weekends_. * CRIS CHEEK & SIANED JONES: SONGS FROM NAVIGATION 1-874400-09-1 =A312.50 / $25 125 x 142mm paperback 72pp 60-min. audio cd included A CD/book event from a stunning text & music duo... cris cheek demotic poet and performer. His research into song-poetry in Madagascar led to a Sony Gold Radio award in 1995. 'Vocalizations that seamlessly weld plummy Olivien Shakespeare to Hollywood demons, mournful blues to Madagascan laments ... able to pull through them texts that glimmer and shudder in social fierceness.' (Brian Catling) sianed jones Welsh banshee queen of the distorted funk fiddle, with a voi= ce to die for. 'Not so much accompanying herself on the violin, more using t= he instrument as a schizoid alter ego.' (The Independent) 'The Bait' (included here) is on an edge between de-construction and construction, to re-affirm the possibility of making meaning new again. Funding from London Arts Board/Eastern Arts Board gratefully acknowledged= =2E You can order these books in the USA from: Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley CA 94710 510-549-3336 510-549-2201 (fax) Editorial inquiries only: RSE 4 Howard Court Peckham Rye London SE15 3PH UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Pecqueur" Subject: Re: Rilke, Norton, and a new version In-Reply-To: <48deb586.36086d51@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The issue of translation is very interesting here (as well as elsewhere). The differention between "word for word" and "author's cadence" suggest one of those loads of ore that shall never be fully mined out. Where this discussion pushes me, apart from the obvious what Rilke shall I read, is toward a comment Ron Silliman posted a while back. He stated that he was reading Faulkner straight through for the first time, and that there was more mind in one of Faulkner's sentences than in... This thought--mind coursing through, inhering in, cadencing, a given work--has been pleasently bothering me. I felt it reading Hass's "Berkley Ecologue" the other morning and I felt it in "Biotherm" a few hours ago, but I have no formal way of talking about it. Norman Malcolm is no use here, and neither is Ryle. Wittgenstein perhaps? And is this the cadence that was mentioned earlier? I really don't want to sound mystical here, but some thoughts won't leave until you've forced them out. J.P. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:16:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Prageeta Sharma Subject: FALL CAFE READING! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello everyone! Kyle Connor and Rachel Levitsky read poetry at The Fall Cafe, 307 Smith Street, Brooklyn, New York. Sunday, Sept. 27th @3pm. Please Come!!! Take F train to Carroll Street Station. prageeta ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:13:54 -0400 Reply-To: louis stroffolino Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Rilke In-Reply-To: <95a6c290.3608659c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I wonder if those who don't like stepehn mitchells' (or are actively disturbed by them) translations of rilke prefer that guy whose name i forget who put the duino elegies in that wcw 3 step toodle-loo shuffle mode allegedly more beloved of proper avant-gardistes It seems no one's mentioning Mitchell's DUINO elegies but the earlier poems and no i haven't read robert hunter's translation yet but i will say that mithcell (though I don't know german) made rilke work for me, made him seem less pretentious, less easy-affirmation more self-doubting, etc than the BLY mode he's often associated with and the duncan mode (joris did some interesting translations too) On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Jessica Smith wrote: > I still think that Stephen Mitchell (whether man or machine) is a good > translator. Both of the books I have also contain the Spanish (Neruda) and > German (Rilke) untranslated. I know enough german and enough poetry to vie > for Mitchell's translation of Rilke... it is poetic, it is a good, fair > translation. > > Far too much complaining and snobbery go on on this list. Be fair. If you > don't know German well enough to do your own translations, don't judge > another's translations. If you have "heard" something about a translator, > read him yourself before making judgemental statements. If Rilke does not > sound enough like, say, Pound, to you, in a translation, well, that is because > Rilke is not Pound. > > I think that no matter what translation you choose, you should try to obtain > one with a side-by-side printing of German and English, so that when you are > doing in-depth study of, say, diction, you can find out the connotations of > the original words without depending on a middleman. > > J. Smith > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: mitchell and snow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to second Chris's praise of Mitchell -- I don't mind the smoothing out of the crunchier parts, and the fallacy of imitative translation just about ruins poulin, mcintyre etc for me -- Snow's North Point New Poems and Uncollected Poems volumes strike me as not too bad -- all best -- Jordan, independent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:04:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: Re: Rilke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > translations of rilke > that guy whose name > i forget > who put the duino elegies in that wcw 3 step > toodle-loo shuffle mode > allegedly more beloved of > proper avant-gardistes... by David Young, editor of Field magazine.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:59:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: mitchell and snow In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:39:34 -0400 from On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:39:34 -0400 Jordan Davis said: >Just to second Chris's praise of Mitchell -- I don't mind the smoothing out >of the crunchier parts, and the fallacy of imitative translation just about >ruins poulin, mcintyre etc for me -- Snow's North Point New Poems and >Uncollected Poems volumes strike me as not too bad -- As far as imitative - seems like the translator is trying to do at least two things - put up a model that reflects as many aspects of the original as possible - AND create an equivalent in which the translator's version gets to shine in its own ambience - the translator's language - so they're always going to be a resemblance & a difference. Maybe this has something to do with the "cadence" thing somebody mentioned - Honig's Pessoa translations seem to have a Whitman cadence - but that "difference" is actually a similarity on another level, since if the translator's ambient language doesn't shine it won't reflect the dazzle of the original - - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:16:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Blarnes Subject: rilke In case anybody hasn't noticed, we're discussing this Rilke poem on the 1st day of autumn. Here at Left Overbie University, the quince trees are palpitating in the mellow English vesperal lotion, the sparrows have all twittered off with the swallows & spaniels, the blonde on the strawpile is spinning her bellbottoms in fond memory of Mr. Chips, my nephew... season of fruitcakes & nutmeg... - Eric Blarnes, O.big.M.Dizz. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: NEW ON-LINE JOURNAL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" There's a new on-line journal, WINDHOVER, on the Instress site: http://home.sprintmail.com/~windhover The current (first) version features poetry by Ray DiPalma Leonard Brink Gene Frumkin Todd Baron Nadine Maestas Beth Anderson John Olson Rose Najia Shannon Welch Elizabeth Treadwell Sheila E. Murphy Peter Ganick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Rilke In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are we just talking about translations of Rilke's sonnets here? I'm sorry that the Leishman and Spender translation of the Duino Elegies are longgone and hard to find. I seem to remember Robert Duncan writing somewhere about how excited he was when they first came out, and how he and his friends pored over the notes as if they were the Talmud. To me, the versions of the Elegies are my favorite in English, but I don't know German and can't really judge them as translations -- anyone want to confirm or set straight my perception here? David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "Who, if I cried, would hear me among the angelic orders?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:16:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: exercise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this gets at the core of the Rilke/translation discussion: MAYHEW wrote: > There is an exercise invented perhaps by Bernadette Mayer, which I found > in In the American Tree: have your friend write poems in "your" voice. > (Of course this would be a deliberate experiment and not a random mangling > by some third party editor) What charmed me about the experiment was the > idea that one would have all these poet friends who would both know one's > work and be able to pull off a convincing imitation. That's what a "good" translation is -- a convincing imitation. Then, there's the elusive, mystical element: what's convincing? But I think this is a useful way to consider translation. We have to assume a translator's getting the meaning close enough. So, when you read the new version, are you convinced? (Berrigan's got me, if we're voting, even if it's not what one might call accurate.) Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Scharf Subject: Re: Rilke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cats, mold, & Mitchell. The latter's Duino Elegies are, at best, misleading tonally, and at worst, flat-out wrong. (See the opening of his 8th.) I really like Gary Miranda's version, which I came across in an English-only edition from Azul [7804 Sycamore Dr. Falls Church VA 22042; more info on Amazon]. --Mike (pas du snob) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:07:42 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: bored non translator stasis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does any one know Valerie Fox's e-mail address. VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Vatican theologians have finished the draft of a major document in which the Catholic Church will officially ask forgiveness for its past errors, possibly including the Inquisition and its treatment of Poets. The Vatican said Wednesday its International Theological Commission would meet next month to work on a document "on the relationship between the Church and the errors of the past." The theologians will review a working draft of a document ordered by Pope John Paul, who wants the Church of nearly a billion members to seek forgiveness for the past as part of celebrations marking the millennium. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 18:03:49 -0400 Reply-To: BANDREWS@prodigy.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: BETSY ANDREWS Subject: bored into trouble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What this list needs is a poem about the clitoris: MY TERN Implication? Ocean. Athwart bastard fingers flying blood-swan, halcyon, Leda's blessed fuck. From the cay of tiny caverns from cleft-wedged salt-splayed nest, my little hoodlum hatches honking like a goose. This lay is golden, wild chase commensurate with intricate in- vulgate song 200 million twelvemonths long and horny as a beak, at your service catching oysters, puffin, preening into wind; dirty bride she struts the isle, raven- ous cormorant phoenixing on matchstick thighs burning from the humming- bird beat of hurtled blood, to spite Masters and Johnson, those Ordinary Seamen, their boat docked on a moatful of last night's frigid bath, who wage subnaval battle armed with cross- bow and game-cock. This is not an albatross. It's my tern, little bird of secrets sent to rime above the toilet water perfumed with fish. Her darkest meat is swelling; spread her wings, make a wish. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:15:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: even more rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yes, as to poring over Leishman's notes to the Elegies and Sonnets . . . some of the most remarkable stuff I ever read, the acme of German Romanticism (or something) -- easy to see why Duncan would have liked them. The translations, though, I remember as less impressive. I come down on the side that wants more from Mitchell's Rilke versions, and Mitchell's translations in general -- that is, I keep WANTING more, and it really isn't there. But there is a very nice introductory essay in that edition by Robert Haas, which I think is another thing Jonathan asked about in his introductory query. I'm very interested that Rilke seems to be a . . . constellation . . . in people's reading (in the sense of Spicer's tree, Olson, the English Dept., etc.). Who would have guessed? I pick him up every couple of years or so and usually wind up getting enraged and literally throwing the book against the wall. He finally doesn't seem to be writing to me. And yet, and yet . . . All this autumn talk (and the poem) made me think of "season of mists and mellow fruitfulness" and "ripeness to the core" -- anyone got the Keats poem around? ___________________ So . . . no one knows of a reading series with an open space in the Pacific Northwest next month for Duncan McNaughton? Too bad! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:15:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Mag List #62 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII List of Experimental Poetry/Art Magazines P.O. Box 590095 San Francisco CA 94159 U.S. MAGAZINES ### A.BACUS, Peter Ganick, 181 Edgemont Ave, Elmwood CT 06110 ### AERIAL, Rod Smith, Box 25642, Wash D.C. 20007 ### AMERICAN BOOK REVIEW, Illinois St Univ. Campus Box 4241, Normal IL 61790 ### AMERICAN LETTERS AND COMMENTARY, Jeanne Beaumont, Anna Rabinowitz, 850 Park Ave Suite 5B, NY NY 10021 ### ARRAS, Brian Kim Stefans, 398 Manhattan Ave. Apt 2L, Brooklyn NY 11211 ### ARSHILE, Mark Salerno, Box 3749, L.A. CA 90078 ### THE ATTIC, Don Hilla, 300 Vicksburg #5, San Francisco CA 94114 ### BIG ALLIS, Melanie Neilson, 11 Scholes St, Brooklyn NY 11206 ### BIG BRIDGE, www.bigbridge.org ### BOOGLIT, David Kirschenbaum, Box 20531, New York NY 10011 ### CHAIN, Juliana Spahr, Dept of English, Univ of Hawaii-Manoa, 1733 Donaghho Rd, Honolulu HI 96822 ### CHICAGO REVIEW, 5801 S. Kenwood, Chicago IL 60637 ### CHLOROFORM, Nick Lawrence & Alisa Messer, 70 Cottage St, Buffalo NY 14201 ### CLWN WR, Box 2165, Church St Station, NY NY 10008 ### COLUMBIA POETRY REVIEW, English Dept of Columbia College, 600 South Michigan Ave, Chicago IL 60605 ### COMBO, Michael Magee, 31 Perrin Ave, Pautucket RI 02801 ### CONJUNCTIONS, 33 W. 9th St., NY NY 10011, www.conjunctions.com ### CRAYON, Andrew Levy, 144 Union St, 2nd Floor, Brooklyn NY 11231 ### CROSS-CULTURAL POETICS, Mark Nowak, 601 25th Ave South, Minneapolis MN 55454 ### DENVER QUARTERLY, Dept of English, U. of Denver, Denver CO 80208 ### DIFFFERENCE ENGINE, Christopher Meyers, members.tripod.com/~demeyers/index.html ### DIRIGIBLE, David Todd, 101 Cottage St, New Haven CT 06511 ### DISPLACE, DISTANCE CARRIER, KIOSK, English Dept., SUNY at Buffalo, Buffalo NY 14260 ### EAST VILLAGE POETRY WEB, www.theeastvillage.org ### ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER (including RIF/T Magazine), Loss Glazier, writing.upenn.edu/epc ### THE END REVIEW, Scott Keeney, 464 Somerville Ave #5, Somerville MA 02143 ### ETCETERA, Mindi Englart, Box 8543, New Haven CT, 06531 ### EXILE, Gary Sullivan, 331 13th St #4L, Brooklyn NY 11215 ### EXPERIODICIST, Jake Berry, 111 Teks St, Florence AL 35633, NinthLab@aol.com ### EXPLOSIVE MAGAZINE, Katy Lederer, 420 Davenport St #2, Iowa City IA 52245 ### FAUCHEUSE, vent@sirius.com ### FELL SWOOP, 3003 Ponce De Leon St, New Orleans LA 70119 ### FIRST INTENSITY, Lee Chapman, Box 665, Lawrence KS 66044 ### FIVE FINGERS REVIEW, Box 12955, Berkeley CA 94712 ### FLASHPOINT, webdelsol.com/Flashpoint/ ### GENERATOR, John Byrum, 3503 Virginia Ave, Cleveland OH 44109 ### THE GERM, Macgregor Card & Andrew Maxwell, Box 8501, Santa Cruz CA 95061 ### GESTALTEN, Paul Silvia, 1207 W. 19th St, Lawrence KS 66046 ### GRAND STREET, 131 Varick St, Room 906, New York, NY 10013 ### GRIST ONLINE, (Including ANABASIS, CYANOBACTERIA, LIGHT & DUST, ROOM TEMPERATURE) www.thing.net/~grist/ ### HAMBONE, Nathaniel Mackey, 134 Hunolt St. Santa Cruz CA 95060 ### HEAVEN BONE, Steven Hirsch, Box 486, Chester NY 10918 ### HOUSE ORGAN, Kenneth Warren, 1250 Belle Avenue, Lakewood OH 44107 ### IDIOM, www.dnai.com/~idiom ### THE IMPERCIPIENT LECTURE SERIES, Steve Evans & Jennifer Moxley, #9 rue Quinault, Paris, 75015 France ### INDEFINITE SPACE, Marcia Arrieta, Box 40101, Pasadena CA 91114 ### INSCAPE, Leonard Brink, Box 3124, Saratoga CA 95070 ### INTERLOPE, Summi Kaipa, 824 E. College St, Iowa City IA 52240 ### )ISM(, D. Michael McNamara, 1514 16th Ave #2, Seattle WA 98122 ### JUXTA, Jim Leftwich, 1512 Mountainside Ct, Charlottesville VA 22903 ### KENNING, Patrick Durgin, 418 Brown St #10, Iowa City, IA 52245 ### KEY SATCH(EL), Gian Lombardo, Box 363, Haydenville MA 01039 ### KOJA, M. Magazinnik, 7314 21st Ave #6E, Brooklyn NY 11204 ### LILLIPUT REVIEW, Don Wentworth, 282 Main St, Pittsburgh PA 15201 ### LINGO, Box 184, West Stockbridge MA 01266, hardpress.com ### LIPSTICK ELEVEN, Kathy Lou Schultz, 42 Clayton St, San Francisco CA 94117 ### THE LITTLE MAGAZINE, English Dept, SUNY at Albany, Albany NY 12222 ### LOST AND FOUND TIMES, John M. Bennett, 137 Leland Ave, Columbus OH 43214 ### LOWER LIMIT SPEECH, A.L. Nielsen, 760 Oak Walk, Apt D, Goleta CA 93117 ### LUNGFULL, 126 E. 4th St #2, New York NY 10003 ### LVNG, Box 3865, Chicago IL 60654 ### LYRIC&, Avery Burns, Box 640531, San Francisco CA 94164 ### MEAT EPOCH, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, 72 Orange St Apt 5B, Brooklyn Hts NY 11201 ### MELODEON, Eric Frost, 996 Valencia #8, San Francisco CA 94110 ### MEMBRANE, Nigel Hinshelwood, 4213 12th St NE, Washington D.C. 20017 ### MESECHABE, Dennis Formento, 1539 Crete St, New Orleans LA 70119 ### MIKE & DALE'S YOUNGER POETS, Michael Price, 766 Valencia St, San Francisco CA 94110 ### MISC. PROJ., Mark Prejsnar, 641 N. Highland Ave. NE #11, Atlanta GA 30306 ### NEDGE, Henry Gould, Box 2321, Providence RI 02906 ### NEW AMERICAN WRITING, Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover, 369 Molino Ave, Mill Valley CA 94941 ### NEXUS, Larry Sawyer, W016A Student Union, Wright St Univ, Dayton OH 45435 ### NON, Laura Moriarty, socrates.berkeley.edu/~moriarty ### ORPHEUS GRID, John Noto, Box 420803, San Francisco CA 94142 ### OUTLET, Elizabeth Treadwell, PO Box 9013, Berkeley CA 94709 ### O!!ZONE, Harry Burrus, 1266 Fountain View Dr. Houston TX 77057 ### PAVEMENT SAW, David Baratier, 7 James St, Scotia NY 12302 ### POETRY NEW YORK, Box 3184, Church St Station, New York NY 10008 ### POETRY PROJECT NEWSLETTER, THE WORLD, St Mark's Church, 131 East 10th St, New York NY 10003 ### PO'FLYE, Michael Crye, Box 1026, Ashland KY 41105 ### PRIMARY WRITING, Phyllis Rosenzweig, 2009 Belmont Rd. N.W., Apt 203, Wash D.C. 20009 ### PRIVATE ARTS, Box 10936, Chicago IL, 60610 ### PROLIFERATION, Mary Burger, 1253 Hampshire St, San Francisco CA 94110 ### PROSODIA, New College of California, 766 Valencia San Francisco CA 94110 ### QUICKSILVER, Denise Enck, Box 972, Mukilteo WA 98275 ### RAIN TAXI, Box 3840, Minneapolis MN 55403 ### REMAP, Todd Baron, 2860 Exposition Blvd #A, Santa Monica CA 90404 ### RHIZOME, Standard Schaefer, 366 S. Mentor #108, Pasadena CA 91106 ### RIBOT, Paul Vangelisti, Box 65798, Los Angeles CA 90065 ### RIVER CITY, Paul Naylor, English Dept, Univ of Memphis, Memphis TN 38152 ### SCORE, Crag Hill, 1015 NW Clifford St, Pullman WA 99163 ### SEMIAUTOMATIC, 231 Elizabeth St, Athens GA 30601 ### SHATTERED WIG REVIEW, 2407 N. Maryland #1, Baltimore MD 21218 ### SITUATION, Mark Wallace, 10402 Ewell Ave, Kensington MD 20895 ### 6IX, H. Thomas, 914 Leisz's Bridge Rd, Reading PA 19605 ### SMALL PRESS COLLECTIVE, Joel Kuszai, www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~kuszai/spc, Box 527, Buffalo NY 14226 ### THE SPITTING IMAGE, Box 20400 Tompkins Square Station, New York NY 10009 ### SPOUT, John Colburn, 28 West Robie St, St Paul MN 55107 ### SUGAR MULE, M.L. Weber, sugarmule@hotmail.com ### SUPERFLUX, Leslie Davis, 629 Fillmore St, San Francisco CA 94117 ### SYN/AES/THE/TIC, Alex Cigale, Box 91, Canal St Station, New York NY 10013 ### SYNAPSE, Box 95220, Seattle WA 98145 ### TALISMAN, Ed Foster, Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303 ### TAPROOT REVIEWS, Luigi Bob Drake, Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107, www.burningpress.org.bphome.html ### TEL LET, John Martone, 1818 Phillips Place, Charleston IL 61920 ### TEXTURE, Susan Smith Nash, 3760 Cedar Ridge Drive, Norman OK 73072 ### :THAT:, 1070 Easton Valley Rd, Easton NH 03580 ### 3RDNESS, John Lowther, Box 1381, Decatur GA 30031 ### TIGHT, Ann Erickson, Box 1591, Guerneville CA 95446 ### TINFISH, Susan Schultz, 47-391 Hui Iwa St #3, Kaneohe HI 96744 ### TOOL, Erik Sweet, Box 3125, Albany NY 12203 ### TORQUE, Liz Fodaski, 21 East 2nd St #14, N.Y. NY 10003 ### TRANSMOG, Ficus Strangulensis, Route 6 Box 138, Charleston WV 25311 ### TRIPWIRE, Yedda Morrison & David Buuck, 722 Shotwell St #4, San Francisco CA 94110 ### UBU WEB VISUAL & CONCRETE POETRY, Kenneth Goldsmith, www.ubuweb.com/vp ### UGLY DUCKLING, 41-15 60th St #3c, Woodside NY 11377 ### VAPOR/STRAINS, J.M. Enright, 136 Terrace Ave, Jersey City NJ 07307 ### VOLT, Gillian Conoley, Box 657, Corte Madera CA 94976 ### THE WASHINGTON REVIEW, Heather Fuller, Box 50132, Washington D.C. 20091 ### WITZ, Christopher Reiner, Box 40012, Studio City CA 91614 ### WOODEN HEAD REVIEW, Mark Hartenbach, 240 Thompson Ave, East Liverpool OH 43920 ### W'ORCS/ALOUD ALLOWED, Box 27309, Cincinnati OH 45227 ### XCONNECT, ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect ### XEROLAGE. Rt 1, Box 131, La Farge WI ### YEFIEF, Ann Racuya-Robbins, Box 8505, Santa Fe NM 87504 ### ZYX, Arnold Skemer, 58-09 205th St, Bayside NY 11364 ### CANADIAN MAGAZINES ### THE ALTERRAN POETRY ASSEMBLAGE, David Dowker, home.ican.net/~alterra/ ### BOO, 1895 Commercial Dr, Box 116, Vancouver, B.C. V5N 4A6 ### BRITISH COLUMBIA MONTHLY, Gerry Gilbert, Box 48884, Station Bent., Vancouver, B. C. V7X 1A8 ### CABARET VERT, Beth Learn, Box 157 Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2S7 ### CAPILANO REVIEW, 2055 Purcell Way, North Vancouver, B.C. V7J 3H5 ### COLLECTIF REPARATION DE POESIE, Jean-Claude Gagnon, 359 rue Lavigueur # 1, Quebec, Quebec G1R 1B3 ### CRASH, Maggie Helwig, Box 562, Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2T1 ### DADABABY, Jaime Reid, 382 East 4th St, North Vancouver, B.C. V7L 1J2 ### FILLING STATION, Box 22135 Bankers Hall, Calgary AB, T2M 0R2, HOLE, Louis Cabri & Rob Manery, L03-2556 East Hastings St, Vancouver B.C. V5K 1Z3 ### OPEN LETTER, 499 Dufferin Ave, London, Ontario N6B 2A1 ### RADDLE MOON, GIANTESS, Susan Clark, Main Space, 518-350 East 2nd Ave, Vancouver B.C. V5T 4R8 ### RAMPIKE, Karl Jirgens, 81 Thorneloe Crescent, Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario P6A 4J4 ### RAW NERVZ HAIKU, 67 Court St, Aylmer, Quebec J9H 4M1 ### STAINED PAPER ARCHIVE, 1792 Byng Road, Windsor, Ontario N8W 3C8 ### TORQUE, Darren Wershler-Henry, Box 657 Station P, Toronto, Ontario M5S 2Y4 ### WEST COAST LINE, English Dept, Simon Fraser Univ, Burnaby B.C. V5A 1S6 ### MONDO HUNKAMOOGA, Stuart Ross, Box 141, Station F, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 2L4 ### U.K. MAGAZINES ### AND, Bob Cobbing, 89A Petherton Rd, London N5 2QT ### ANGEL EXHAUST, Andrew Duncan, 27 Sturton St, Cambridge CB1 2QG ### ECORCHE, Ian Taylor, 17 Eastfields, Thorndord, Sherborne, Dorset DT9 6PU ### FIRST OFFENSE, Tim Fletcher, Syringa, The Street, Stodmarsh, Canterbury, Kent CT3 4BA ### FRAGMENTE, Anthony Mellors, 3 Town Green Rd, Orwell, Cambridge ### INTIMACY, Adam McKeown, 11c Elizabeth House, Alexandra St, Maidstone, Kent ME14 2BX ### OASIS, Ian Robinson, 12 Stevenage Rd., London SW6 6ES ### PAGES, Robert Sheppard, Edge Hill University College, Ormskirk, Lancashire L39 4QP ### PURGE, Robert Hampson, 11 Hillview Ct, Hillview Rd, Woking, Surrey GU22 7QN ### RADICAL POETICS, Mike Hrebeniak, 23 Broadcroft Ave, Stanmore, Middlesex, HA7 1NT ### RWC, Lawrence Upton, 32 Downside Road, Surrey SM2 5HP ### SALT, John Kinsella, Churchill College, Cambridge CB3 0DS ### SHEARSMAN, Tony Frazer, c/o Apartado 422, Box 60326, Houston TX 77205 ### SPANNER, Allen Fisher, 14 Hopton Rd, Hereford HR1 1BE ### STRIDE, Rupert Loydell, 11 Sylvan Rd, Exeter, Devon EX4 6EX ### SYMTEX & GRIMMER, Cupar, Fife, KY15 5UE ### TERRIBLE WORK, Tim Allen, 21 Overton Gardens, Mannamead, Plymouth PL3 5BX ### USSR 1049 ORANGE, Watson Press "Cestria", 21 Gladstone St, Hartepool, Cleveland TS24 0PE ### WORDS WORTH, Alaric Sumner, BM Box 4515, London WC1N 3XX ### CONTINENTAL EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE ### ABSURDISTISCHE LIGA, R Golchert, www.swb.de/personal/abs ### ACTION POETIQUE, Henri Deluy, 3 rue Pierre-Guignois, 94200 Ivry-sur-Seine, France ### AMAE, Apdo 47, 28921 Alcoron (Madrid) Spain ### ART POSTALE, Vittore Baroni, Via C Battista 339, 55049 Viareggio, Italy ### BANANA SPLIT, Peter Bangsvej 74, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark ### BOXKITE, James Taylor, GPO Box 1500 Sydney, NSW 2001 Australia ### A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, Alan Loney, Box 55-124, Mission Bay, Auckland, 1005, New Zealand ### BRIO CELL, LINGUA BLANCA, GLOSSOLALIA, J. Lehmus, Stenbocksv. 24, 02860 Esbo, Finland, Jlehmus@cute.fi ### CARPETAS EL PARAISO, Jose Luis Campal, Apt N. 6, 33980 Pola de Lavinia, Asturias, Spain ### CELACANTO, Marcelo Casarin, Quisquisacate 125, 5008 Cordoba, Argentina ### COMUNICARTE, Hugo Pontes, Caixa Postal 922, 37701-970 Pocos de Caldas, Brazil ### DAS FROLICHE WOHNZIMMER, Fritz Widhalm, Fuhrmanngasse 1A/7, 1080 Vienna Austria ### DIMENSAO, Guido Brilharinho, Caixa Postal 140, Uberaba 38001, Brazil ### DOC(K)S, Phillipe Castellin, 12 Cours Grandval, F 20 000 Ajaccio, France ### FOURW, Charles Sturt Univ, Box 588, Wagga Wagga, New South Wales, Australia 2678 ### FREIE ZEIT ART, Peter Schaden, Nikolaus Pyttyg. 26, 1140, Vienna, Austria ### FULL, Ramon Salvo, Apdo 20033, 08080 Barcelona Spain ### GARATUJA, C. Postal 41, Bento Goncalves/RS 95700 Brazil, ### GRAFFITI, Horacio Versi, Colonia 815, of. 105, Montevideo, Uruguay ### EXPERIMENTA, Yolanda Perez Herreras, Costa Brava, 18-Portal 2-5E, 28034 Madrid Spain ### IF, Jean-Jacques Viton, 12 Place Castellane, 13006 Marseille, France ### INIA KELMA, Nueva, 4, 41770 Montellano Spain ### INTERARTE, Douglas Zunino, Odebrecht 97, 89021 Blumenau, SC, Brazil ### LA ISLA DE BARATARIA, Mario Sampaolesi, Franklin 833 - 1 "C" , (1405) Cap. Fed.Buenos Aires, Argentina ### JOURNALECO, Caixa Postal 8622, Ag Itaigara, 41857-970 Salvador, Bahia, Brazil ### KARREE, huizen.dds.nl/~karree ### KARTA, Bartek Nowak, Spoldzielcza 3/39, 42-300 Myszkow, Poland ### KERAUNIA, Sergio Fumich, via P. Togliatti, 3-20070 Brembio-Mi, Italy ### JACKET, John Tranter, www.jacket.zip.com.au ### JEJUNE, Box 85, 110 01 Prague 1, Czech Republic ### LEOPOLD BLOOM, Vaci M. u. 4. I. 8., H-9700 Szombathely, Hungary ### LA LETTRE DOCUMENTAIRE, Phillipe Bille, BP 249, 33012 Bordeaux, France ### MAGYAR MUHELY, Minerva u 3/a, H-1118 Budapest, Hungary ### MANI ART, THE SECRET LIFE OF MARCEL DUCHAMP, Pascal Lenoir, 11 Ruelle De Champagne, 60680 Grandfresnoy, France ### MINIATURE OBSCURE, Gerhild Ebel, Cornelia Ahnert, Landrain 143, 06118 Halle/Saale, Germany ### MITO, via G. Bruno 37, 80035 Nola, Italy ### NIOQUES, Jean-Marie Gleize, 4 rue de Cromer, 26400 Crest, France ### NUMERO, Wilfred Nold, Eppsteinstr. 22, D-60323 Frankfurt, Germany ### O APIPUCOS, R. Cahetes, 401 - Apipucos, Recife/PE, CEP 52 071 - 390, Brazil ### OFFERTA SPECIALE, Carla Bertola, Corso De Nicola 20, 10128 Torino, Italy ### OLHO LATINO, Paulo Cheida Sans, Rua Padre Bernardo da Silva 856, 13030 Campinas, SP, Brazil ### OTIS RUSH, Box 21, North Adelaide, 5006 South Australia ### PINTALO DE VERDE, Antonio Gomez, APDO 186, 06800 Merida, Badajoz, Spain ### PIPS DADA CORPORATION, Claudia Putz, Prinz-Albert Str. 31, 53115 Bonn, Germany ### PLURAL, Paseo de la Reforma 18.1 piso, Deleg. Cuauhtemoc, DF 06600, Mexico ### P.O.BOX (Merz Mail), Pere Sousa, apdo 9326, 08080 Barcelona Spain ### POESIE, Michel Deguy, 8 rue Ferou, 75278 Paris Cedex 06, France ### POESIE EUROPE, Postfach 180429, D-60085, Frankfurt/Main, Germany ### POSTYPOGRAPHIKA, www.postypographika.com ### PRAKALPANA LITERATURE, KOBISENA, P-40 Nandana Park, Calcutta 700034, West Bengal, India ### PUNHO MAGAZINE, MULTIPAIS, Paulo Bruscky, CP 850 Recife PE, 50010-000 Brazil ### PRINTED MATTER, Edgar Henry, 2-15-6 Zenpukuji, Suginami-ku, Tokyo 167 Japan ### REVISTA DE DIVULGACAO CULTURAL, Rua Antonio da Veiga 140, Caixa Postal 1507, CEP 89012 Blumenau, SC, Brazil ### RRAT, Tim Gaze, Box 1011, Kent Town SA 5071 Australia ### SHISHI, Shoji Yoshizawa, 166 Suginami-ku koenjikita, 3-31-5 Tokyo, Japan ### SIGN'ZINE, Industrias Mikuerpo, Apdo 36.455, 28080 Madrid, Spain ### SPINNE, Dirk Frohlich, Priessnitzstrasse 19, 01099 Dresden, Germany ### SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand ### SYNTELEIA, Dr. Panayiotis, 8001 Natural Bridge Rd., St Louis MO 63121 ### TERAZ MOWIE, Hartmut Andryczuk, Elsastr. 4, 12159 Berlin, Germany ### TEXTURAS, Angela Serna, Apdo de correos 2201, 01080 Vitoria, Spain ### TOENDRA, www.xs4all.nl/~roberi/ ### TRANSFUSION, Alessandro Ceccotto, C.P. 116, 45011 Adria (RO) Italy ### VISUAL POETRY S.O.S., Alfredo Slang, via Ferro De Cavallo, 10, 31100 Treviso, Italy ### VORTICE, Bacacay 3103 - (1406) - Capital Federal, Argentina ### YE, FALTBLATT, Theo Breuer, Neustrasse 2, 53925 Sistig/Eifel, Germany ### XUL, Jorge Perednik, Plaza 1629, (1430) Buenos Aires, Argentina ### ZOOM-ZOUM, Josee Lapeyrere, 4 rue des Carmes, 75005 Paris, France ### ZWISCHEN DEN ZEILEN, Urs Engeler, Hoernlistrasse 27, CH 8400 Winterthur, Switzerland ### The preceding list is based on the research and judgments of Spencer Selby. The term "experimental" is not meant as a characterization of anyone's specific editorial focus or perspective. Please circulate, and mail possible additions, deletions, address changes or other comments to Spencer Selby, P.O. Box 590095, San Francisco CA 94159, U.S.A. email: selby@slip.net fax: 415-752-5119 This is list #62, dated 9/98 ### ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 03:06:00 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: [Fwd: Re: Remap ing the horizon with theme] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: from ns.infotechsys.com (ns.infotechsys.com [207.239.53.253]) by tern.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA08841 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postoffice.tsidss.com ([207.239.53.241]) by ns.infotechsys.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 120-52124U500L100S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:26:22 -0400 Received: from CKEMP ([192.168.10.155]) by postoffice.tsidss.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 120-36333U500L100S0) with SMTP id AAA153 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:24:51 -0400 Received: by CKEMP with Microsoft Mail id <01BDE6D4.ACFE63D0@CKEMP>; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:29:34 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE6D4.ACFE63D0@CKEMP> From: Carolyn Kemp To: "'toddbaron@earthlink.net'" Subject: RE: Remap ing the horizon with theme Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:29:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BDE6D4.AD017110" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDE6D4.AD017110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable very quickly at my work desk: What I think - we know - it's about "about" just as you articulated so = architectually, I fear your drift may be lost or diffused on arch. = ignoramuses - but shouldn't be. It's about learning too, in the way poetry informs, or what is revealed = only through language or the writing of it, what the reader "learns" = about "politics" and how poetry informs or resonates with that concept. = The writer, too, may find alternative resonances in their work when = connected, however loosely, with a thematic idea. Further, by choosing love, food, nature, etc. - all words worn and = rendered indistinct by use and misuse, we can refresh them, or come to a = fresh use ala Stein by placing poems next to them. C Carolyn Kemp Dir. of Corporate Marketing Comm. Transition Systems, Inc. 617-305-5260 -----Original Message----- From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap [SMTP:toddbaron@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:15 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Remap ing the horizon with theme sorry for the name/sake mix-up. To share with the list also: here's the thematic reason--rather than just create a collection of poems in a magazine format--Carolyn Kemp and I decided that a thematic base allows a certain dialogue to resonate between poems. Especially in small publications like ours--we wanted to avoid a "collection of stuff we like"--which we felt some magazines do do. THe theme then (as in #6--politics--) is an engagement with the notion of themes. Think of architecture--one needs a site rather than a building or house. The site then enters into a dialogue with the building rather than the building being just "placed" on the site. (Thinking of Neutra or Schindler's idea --the Louis Sullivan buildings or Wrights "organic machine" that a house must be...) . Anyway--and also-- years later someone mightpull down a ReMap or other magazine and see what--say--politics or food or nature editions we did and (hopefully) see a dialogue there between the work, the magazine, and the reader. the poems then don't have to be "about" the theme, but rather--about--as in--he's about the house. At least that's ReMap's idea. What do you (all) think? 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QYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAA AAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABpqQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDE6D4.AD017110-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:08:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: the general plight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's an article from this week's Science News which I think speaks volumes about the state of these U. States. (n.b. Science News is a very useful 16 page weekly for the scientifically curious but semiliterate, among whom I include myself) [IMMIGRANTS GO FROM HEALTH TO WORSE People from around the world flock to the US expecting to find a better life. But to scientists' surprise, a growing body of evidence indicates that increasing familiarity with US culture and socioety renders immigrants and their children susceptible to many mental and physical ailments, even if they attain financial success. The latest study of this phenomenon, directed by epidemiologist William A. Vega of the U. of Texas, San Antonio finds much higher rates of depression, substance abuse, and other mental disorders in US-born Mexican-Americans compared with both recent and long-standing immigrants. This pattern held regardless of education or income levels. Vega's results, published in the September _Archives of General Psychiatry_, appear at the same time as the release of a national report on declining physical and mental health in children of immigrant families. A panel convened by the National Research Council and the Institute of Medicine, both in Washington, DC, reviewed previous studies and concluded that assimilation into a US lifestyle may undermine the overall health of immigrant children much more than being poor does. In contrast, studies of nonimmigrant US residents usually link poverty to poor physical and mental health. "The material on immigrant health shocked me when we first reviewed it," says panel member Arthur M. Kleinman, a psychiatrist and anthropologist at Harvard Medical School in Boston. "Vega's study is consistent with the panel's conclusion that immigrants' health deteriorates with assimilation to US society," declining toward general US norms, says Kleinman. Other studies have indicated that citizens of many countries, including Mexico, are healthier overall than US citizens. Vega's team interviewed 3,012 adults of Mexican origin, ages 18 to 59, living in Fresno County, CA. Of that number, 1,810 people identified themselves as immigrants. Interviews were in English or Spanish. Interviewers expressed an interest in health issues only and trioed to minimize any tendency of participants to lie--due to US residency concerns--about having immigrated. Nearly 1/2 of US-born Mexican-Americans had suffered from at least one of 12 psychiatric disorders at some time in their lives, compared with only 1/4 of the immigrants. Common mental conditions in US-born individuals included major depression, phobias and other anxiety disorders, and substance abuse and dependence. Prevalence rates for mental disorders were lowest for those who had immigrated with the past 13 years. The higher rates found among immigrants of 13 or more years still fell considerably below those for the native-born group. Immigrants may constitute a hardy group willing to carve out new lives in a foreign land. However, immigrants in Vega's study showed mental-disorder rates similar to those of Mexico City residents. A related study of 1,500 public health care users in California, conducted by psychiatrist Javier I. Escobar of the RWJ Medical School in Piscataway, NJ, reports lower rates of depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, as well as better physical health, in Mexican and Central American immigrants than in US-born Hispanics. Nonetheless, immigrants were poorer than the US natives, Escobar's team reports in an upcoming _British Journal of Psychiatry_. Physical and mental health advantages for immigrant families vanish by the third generation of children born in the US, according to the panel report. Reasons for the initial strength and later decline of immigrants' health are not clear, says Vega's group. Close-knit extended families and cultural injunctions to eat nutritious foods and avoid drugs and divorce may safeguard the health of recent immigrants from Mexico, Escobar suggests. Increasing social isolation and loss of stable religious affiliations may later herald health declines, Kleinman proposes.] My one methodological question is that we're not told how mental health histories were determined and whether the diagnostic standards were constant. But this seems pretty sound from what we're told here. Note the tendency not to go beyond the extended family in seeking explanations--the bias towards defining the primary unit as the individual in the US version of capitalist society, and the social forces that actualize that definition, are so extreme that even moving towards defining the family as unit is fairly recent and almost revolutionary. My guess is that anyone who grew up in an immigrant community, as I did, would tell you that the boundary between family and community was porous to the point of being on occasion almost non-existent, as it is in many other societies. The loss of that cohesion and its replacement by a system of social rewards and status based on income rather than utility to the group or even pleasure in the task might go a long way to answering the mystery. Although hard to devise an experiomental model to test that hypothesis. But hey, what am I suggesting? That it takes a village to raise a child? I must be a commie. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 17:59:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: not the last word on Rilke. . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My vote goes for the Leishman-Spender of the Duinos. The chief flaw is that they are a bit breathy, or breathless, too exclamatory, a tad adolescent. Leishman, or Spender? I suspect the latter, though I don't know the whole story of the enterprise--has it been written down anywhere? Rilke's tone is quieter and graver, with none of the hysteria in the L-S. But otherwise, tonally, cadence-wise, and word for word, phrase for phrase, they accomplished an impressive task. I hadn't realized it is now o-p and in short supply. Too bad. David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 19:38:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Travis Andrew Ortiz Subject: SF Reading / Travis Ortiz and Sarah Rosenthal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" melodeon poetry systems is pleased to announce a reading to celebrate the release of geography of parts by Travis Ortiz AND not-chicago by Sarah Rosenthal 7:30 PM Thursday, September 24 at the New College of California Theater 777 Valencia Street (between 18th and 19th) the books will be available for $6.00 each. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:31:32 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: the general plight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark-- Most of your questioning below is covered within _Street Lives: An oral history of homeless Americans_ by Steven Vanderstaay with photos by Joe Sorrentino its a phenomenal resource on the line between homelessness, mental stability, ethicity & etcetera. Be well David Baratier My one methodological question is that we're not told how mental health histories were determined and whether the diagnostic standards were constant. But this seems pretty sound from what we're told here. Note the tendency not to go beyond the extended family in seeking explanations--the bias towards defining the primary unit as the individual in the US version of capitalist society, and the social forces that actualize that definition, are so extreme that even moving towards defining the family as unit is fairly recent and almost revolutionary. My guess is that anyone who grew up in an immigrant community, as I did, would tell you that the boundary between family and community was porous to the point of being on occasion almost non-existent, as it is in many other societies. The loss of that cohesion and its replacement by a system of social rewards and status based on income rather than utility to the group or even pleasure in the task might go a long way to answering the mystery. Although hard to devise an experiomental model to test that hypothesis. But hey, what am I suggesting? That it takes a village to raise a child? I must be a commie. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: SF Reading / Travis Ortiz and Sarah Rosenthal hey travis what CITY is your reading in!? e ps remember, this is an INTERNATIONAL list! maybe you better give the country too... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:13:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: the general plight Comments: To: baratier@megsinet.net there is a book called _the third place_, i forget who by, that addresses big aspect of this beautifully. the notion it propounds is this: that in general, people need a sort of "third space," a space not home, or work, but completely social. a few requirements for it to work -- has to have component of "regulars," and offer, via that "regulars" aspect a sort of instant camaraderie/mileau within which individual has self-created definition; 2) needs to be free play without social and class boundaries, such that big landowner jokes and talks and trades banter as equal with, for instance, grocer. author identifies attempts by american architects, in the gaudy Superhoses whoops! Superhouses, which dot decadently upscale housing developments (of a sort which i'm SURE WE are all not intimately acquainted!) now intended as eeyries for overly paid yuppies. you know the type, with pools and tennis courts and a gazillion rooms. these houses attempt to place the third space in the home, but are doomed to failure because the place ment of them in family setting cuts off larger community. author mentions as successful examples the general store, in front of which people hang out in small towns in late 1800's to mid 1900's. or sidewalk cafes in italy and europe. also, beer gardens of midwest, as long as they are a sort of family venue, rather than uproarious places for college students to vigorously and unpleasantly recycle intoxicants ("you don't own beer, you only rent it for a while..."). book has been ringing true to me ever since i read it. now, if only _I_ could find a third space in boston area... e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:08:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Avec Sampler Two Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cydney Chadwick of Avec Books has asked me to post this. I haven't seen the book yet, but it sounds great... ---------------------- Just out from Avec Books: An AVEC SAMPLER TWO. _AN AVEC SAMPLER_ is not AVEC magazine. It is not a "best of" AVEC magazine. It isn't a magazine at all. It is a book, a sampling of contemporary writing, with substantial sections from each contributor (an average of ten pages per author). _An Avec Sampler Two_ features the English language premiere of Michael Palmer's _The Danish Notebook_,published in Danish earlier this year--along with new writing by Ann Lauterbach, Gad Hollander, Pierre Alferi (trns. from the French by Cole Swensen), Nick Piombino, Charles Borkhuis, Oulipo writer Michelle Grangaud (trns.from the French by Guy Bennett), Andrew Joron, Joe Ross, Julie Kalendek, Elizabeth Treadwell, Mary Angeline, Lisa Lubasch and Camille Guthrie. Cover by noted photographer Ben E. Watkins. This publication of multiple authors appears from Avec Books at various intervals. List Price: $12.95; ISBN:1-880713-15-2; pub. date: Sept. 21, 1998. 165 pages. Paper. Available thru SPD, Baker & Taylor, and Avec Books: P.O. Box 1059, Penngrove, CA 94951. *note to Sampler contributors who are on the Poetics List: your copies are being sent out this week.* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:18:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: the third space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eliza, This is an idea that has long intrigued me. Wherever I've lived, I've tended to adopt a cafe as my 'local', but it usually takes either a few years of being a regular, or an extraordinarily friendly atmosphere, before I get to know the staff/proprietors/other regulars. I've tended to prefer cafes as a writing venue (we did that thread a while ago) over my own bedroom or living room: even if I'm on my own in the cafe, there's a sense of being-in-the-world that inevitably shapes my writing. As far as idenitfying a good contemporary example of this space goes, I'm similarly ambivalent about Superhouses (or the kind of "urban village" approach that might be similar). I've just moved into something like this (maybe I am an "overly paid yuppie", though I sure don't own as much Alessi kitchenware as our neighbours!), a converted shoe factory in Wellington's CBD that is within a block of several other apartment blocks by the same developer. There are no tennis courts or pools as far as I can see, but many of them aspire to some sort of common area. One has had the building's roof partly removed to create an open-air "street" on the second floor, one has a private courtyard on the roof, but ours has two kinds of open area, one more private than the other. There's a large atrium from the first to the fourth floors, open only to residents, but beneath this the factory's been opened up into an archway that now connects two previously dead-end side streets. Among my neighbours (very few of whom I know well, but I've only been here a couple of months), there's a range of reactions to this openness. It does make the place feel less isolated, but they tend to be less enamored of the drunks and skateboarders. There was an article recently in an architecture/design mag called Urbis, discussing these attempts at urban communities, and it pointed out many of your reservations. Attempts to get a community feeling together were thwarted by (a) the fact that the (mostly wealthy) inhabitants of these places often have second homes outside of the city, and are never here at weekends, and (b) the tendency of people to have their own third spaces, often in cafes, whose regulars are not determined by neighborhood, but by old networks of friendship/families/colleagues/ex-flatmates. I'm more optimistic about our place, because it's close to several other apartment complexes, the whole meta-complex having several hundred residents, and there are still a few of the traditional inner-city dwellers (students and artists living in warehouses) nearby, making the place a bit more than a ghetto for accountants and architects. There's no real tradition of inner-city living in New Zealand, but maybe we will see some sort of post-modern agora taking shape here. Cheers, Tom Beard. (P.S. I wonder how this might relate to Benjamin's idea of the Arcade: not-quite-private, not-quite-public?) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:39:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mag List #62 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A FORMAL AND AN INFORMAL THANK YOU (sorry for shouting) to Spencer for creating and maintaining this terrific list. It's very helpful and comprehensive. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:03:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Instress Winter 98/99 Chapbooks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Instress announces its Winter 98/99 chapbooks: EMBLEMS by Martha Ronk NEXT SONG by Maxine Chernoff The chapbooks plus _Inscape #4_ will be available for $10, postage paid, from: Instress P.O. Box 3124 Saratoga, CA 95070 Checks should be made payable to Leonard Brink. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:04:03 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: the general plight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Out here we have space for sure, one place, two place, three place and so on. also, beer gardens of midwest, as long as they are a sort of family venue, rather than uproarious places for college students to vigorously and unpleasantly recycle intoxicants ("you don't own beer, you only rent it for a while..."). David Baratier Columbus, OH ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 02:29:47 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: the general plight (ignore last) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buddy, out here we have space for sure, one place, two place, three place and so on. Never understood that east-coast people who need people hooey. Far as this goes: also, beer gardens of midwest, as long as they are a sort of family venue, rather than uproarious places for college students to vigorously and unpleasantly recycle intoxicants ("you don't own beer, you only rent it for a while..."). Reckon I've never heard of no beer garden. You meanin a bowlin alley? Or a drive-in Theee-Ater? Or you liken a friday motorweigh & a pistle rannge? Must be some pEEculiar plants there betcha. Tell my mama about nothing grows on trees. Yeah buddy, Gotta get me one of them. Sounds real spooky. David Baratier Cluum-bus, OhiA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: the general plight In-Reply-To: <199809240413.AAA12544@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That third space used to be the street itself--porch- or stoop-lined, so that the boundaries between the familial and communal domains was blurred. In San Diego a lot of the houses have porches, but no one sits on them, and the kids don't play on the street (not even the sidewalk). In my old Irish-Italian-Puerto Rican neighborhood in Brooklyn the stoops became block-long front-row seats for the adults to observe the children and the passers-by and to commerce in gossip and negotiate difference. It could take a half hour to get from the corner to my door with a quart of milk. And the children were known to everyone, and knew it, from birth thru adolescence. At 12:13 AM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >there is a book called _the third place_, i forget who by, that addresses >big aspect of this beautifully. the notion it propounds is this: that in >general, people need a sort of "third space," a space not home, or work, >but completely social. a few requirements for it to work -- has to have >component of "regulars," and offer, via that "regulars" aspect a sort of >instant camaraderie/mileau within which individual has self-created >definition; 2) needs to be free play without social and class boundaries, >such that big landowner jokes and talks and trades banter as equal with, >for instance, grocer. > >author identifies attempts by american architects, in the gaudy Superhoses >whoops! Superhouses, which dot decadently upscale housing developments (of >a sort which i'm SURE WE are all not intimately acquainted!) now intended >as eeyries for overly paid yuppies. you know the type, with pools and >tennis courts and a gazillion rooms. these houses attempt to place >the third space in the home, but are doomed to failure because the place >ment of them in family setting cuts off larger community. author mentions >as successful examples the general store, in front of which people hang >out in small towns in late 1800's to mid 1900's. or sidewalk cafes in >italy and europe. also, beer gardens of midwest, as long as they are a >sort of family venue, rather than uproarious places for college students >to vigorously and unpleasantly recycle intoxicants ("you don't own beer, >you only rent it for a while..."). > >book has been ringing true to me ever since i read it. now, if only _I_ >could find a third space in boston area... > >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:33:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rilke en Neuva York? In-Reply-To: <01BDE6E3.3EE96610@gps12@columbia.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >INBOUND, 9/23/98 (for D.B.) > >Shit, I'm fucking late again What time were you supposed to fuck? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:10:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Rilke... Re Vatican MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's David Young, published by Norton He SAYS it's WCW's line, which just shows the glorious range of human perception; and, at least in my edition, there's no German text in parallel -----Original Message----- From: louis stroffolino Date: 23 September 1998 20:13 Subject: Re: Rilke | I wonder if those who don't | like stepehn mitchells' (or are actively disturbed | by them) | translations of rilke | prefer that guy whose name | i forget | who put the duino elegies in that wcw 3 step | toodle-loo shuffle mode | allegedly more beloved of | proper avant-gardistes "Vatican theologians have finished the draft of a major document in which the Catholic Church will officially ask forgiveness for its past errors, possibly including the Inquisition and its treatment of Poets. " ok, let's forgive them; but to make sure it sticks with God, maybe we should burn them alive as well - for their souls L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:00:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: WCW's line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The three step line is not an "avant-garde" technique but an attempt to regularize "free verse" make it almost routine so that it might be used for longer more discursive poems such as "Of Asphodel, that greeny flower I come, my sweet, to sing to you." which I have read with pleasure repeatedly over the past twenty years or more Of course, I am not getting the right cadence here. Wittgenstein said that understanding a musical phrase is analogous to understanding a sentence, "more than one might think." I love these flashes of intuition, as when he speaks of someone buying several copies of the morning paper to make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved Rilke's poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:56:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Rilke en NUEva York. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haw haw. Good to see poets on this list advocating for "one word, one meaning." Sure, it's a radical concept, but ultimately very practical: life is confusing enough as it is. Anyway, gawd, I see I fucking misspelled "Nueva." Duh. N-u-e-v-a. Hey, George-mon, why no "Rilke in Canada" from you, eh? Is that cuz summer is replaced immediately by winter? Curious, but not George, Gary On Thursday, September 24, 1998 4:34 AM, George Bowering [SMTP:bowering@SFU.CA] wrote: > >INBOUND, 9/23/98 (for D.B.) > > > >Shit, I'm fucking late again > > What time were you supposed to fuck? > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: mitchell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maybe my perspective on "Stephen Mitchell" is different from everybody else's. A long list of translations from such widely divergent languages as Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew, classical Chinese, Japanese, Persian, and even my own favorite, Sanskrit, has been attributed to this "Stephen Mitchell" [and perhaps there are translations from other exotic languages which I have not seen; I wouldn't be surprised]. Now I won't question Stephen Mitchell's competence in German [BTW, I read Rilke in this language] and other modern European languages. But I know he doesn't know Sanskrit, and I have major doubts about the others. That's why I prefer to attribute these translations to a machine "Stephen Mitchell" [maybe there's a factory somewhere, I don't know]. So what is this machine designed to do? It has generated a corpus of spiritual classics for the New Age. Rilke is part of a canon that includes the Gospels, Genesis, the Book of Job, the I Ching, Zen tales, Rumi, Sanskrit proverbs on how to accumulate wealth, etc. etc. etc. I think that this whole "Stephen Mitchell" translation project has levelled these products of very different cultures into one palatable, highly fashionable, soup. Sanskritists for several generations have been wrestling with a problem which thoughtful translators of all sorts will recognize as familiar. We have been trying to figure out how best to translate the Vedas. One school argues that we should try to make them intelligible to modern minds by adopting what is called 'sympathetic translation' techniques. The result is the domestication of the Vedas. What interests me about the Vedas is that they are among the strangest things I have ever read. One does have to make them strange. They are strange already. When I translate them I try to keep them that way, horse sacrifices, bestiality, soma hallucinations and all. Now the "Stephen Mitchell" project, as far as I can tell, wants to cull from such books as the Vedas pearls of wisdom that will comfort us in our moments of spiritual uncertainty, or maybe certainty [I don't know]. You can use the Vedas, the I Ching, the Gospels, etc., any way you want. As my sons say, it is a free country. But I use these texts as a window into the minds that produced them. I don't want to be consoled or uplifted by them. GT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:53:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: self-etc In-Reply-To: <360984C8.93B5E7C9@megsinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi all, just to do the self-promotion thing: my essay "Avantgarde or Borderguard: (Latino) Identity in Poetry" just came out in American Literary History Fall 1998. Glad to be able to put in a plug for vernacular/alternative poetry in that venue. thanks again to all the metallurgy responses. my architect student is very excited about everything yo've been suggesting. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:30:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Wittgenstein's true importance In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved Rilke's > poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Not exactly...As i recall it, Witt. had an income (not extravagent) from some inherited capital. He also had very little interest in most aspects of material consumption and lifestyle, that would require this money. So he made what amounted more to grants, to help poets get by. I can't remember the details re Rilke (tho you are right he certainly at least considered t helping him) but i know he made a grant of this kind to Trakl. Witt's belief that financially supporting poets is a top priority, is needless to say the single most important thing about him. Well-off individuals in our time and place should be reminded of his example, and urged to emulate it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 08:37:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: the third space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Eliza : you mean CHEERS isn't really in Boston? David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:50:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Wittgenstein's true importance In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Mark Prejsnar wrote: It goes without saying... I couldn't agree more: Einstein's true importance is his little-known essay on Holderlin, perhaps, or that he once sent some money to Paul Celan. Bertrand Russel's greatest achievement was memorizing _Paradise Lost_ We should judge philosophers by their support of poetry, poets by their taste in jazz, jazz musicians by knowledge of classical music, classical composers by their taste in clothes, fashion designers by their interest in film, directors by the knowledge of physics, physicists by their knoweldge of philosophy... > Witt's belief that financially supporting poets is a top priority, is > needless to say the single most important thing about him. Well-off > individuals in our time and place should be reminded of his example, and > urged to emulate it. > Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:04:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: not the last word on Rilke. . . Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Very much agree with db's take. When Jerry Rothenberg & I were putting together the first volume of MILLENNIUM we looked at most if not all extant translations of Rilke. As far as the elegies are concerned, the Leishman/Spender still sounded the best, so we decided to use their translation of the First Duino Elegy. As we were interested in new translations whenever possible or necessary we asked Robert Kelly to translate the Eighth Duino Elegy =8B & that turned out to be a lovely working. I redid a few of the shorter poems (_Death_ & _Tombs of the Heterae_) not because we couldn't have used some other ones, but because I couldn't resist the pleasure of it! For some odder Rilke =8B a strange text not published until the 70s because the estate didn't want to release it =8B see my translation of _Testament_ in SULFUR # 30 (spring '92). As far as Stephen Mitchell is concerned, George Thompson's recent post hits the nail on the head. Any translation that makes an original (George mentions the Vedas) more "approachable," "understanbdable" i.e., an easier read, than the original, is off the mark. This point I have argued in various places when writing on Celan translations. Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ---------- >From: david bromige >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: not the last word on Rilke. . . >Date: Wed, Sep 23, 1998, 8:59 PM > >My vote goes for the Leishman-Spender of the Duinos. The chief flaw is tha= t >they are a bit breathy, or breathless, too exclamatory, a tad adolescent. >Leishman, or Spender? I suspect the latter, though I don't know the whole >story of the enterprise--has it been written down anywhere? Rilke's tone >is quieter and graver, with none of the hysteria in the L-S. But otherwise= , >tonally, cadence-wise, and word for word, phrase for phrase, they >accomplished an impressive task. I hadn't realized it is now o-p and in >short supply. Too bad. >David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:40:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: self-etc In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" congrats, Maria. But I/we forgot the best one of all for 20th C. poetics, Pound's Canto LIII, the characters hsin/jih/jih/hsin, "Tching prayed on the mountain and/ wrote MAKE IT NEW/ on his bath tub." (53/265) best, Sylvester At 9:53 AM -0600 9/24/98, Maria Damon wrote: >hi all, just to do the self-promotion thing: my essay "Avantgarde or >Borderguard: (Latino) Identity in Poetry" just came out in American >Literary History Fall 1998. Glad to be able to put in a plug for >vernacular/alternative poetry in that venue. thanks again to all the >metallurgy responses. my architect student is very excited about >everything yo've been suggesting. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:52:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Wittgenstein's true importance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The fund Wittgenstein established for "needy artists" just before the outbreak of WW1 was equivalent to something like $100,000. 00 in today's currency. It was disbursed to visual artists (e.g. Kokoshka), philosophers, etc. as well as poets -- the 3 largest beneficiaries however were Rilke, Trakl, and Carl Dallago. W didn't select the beneficiaries himself, & as his biographer Ray Monk tells it, disliked Rilke's later work, & had never heard of Trakl before the disbursment was made -- when W did read him he said that, although he couldn't understand Trakl's poetry at all, he liked its "tone." Although W was himself somewhat cool to avant-garde work -- if not hostile -- it's curious, but not surprising, that he should be the favorite philosopher of the av-g. Marjorie Perloff discusses this brilliantly in _W's Ladder_ -- an extraordinary book. On a completely different note, it's always struck me as truly strange that W & Hitler were contemporaries at the same Realschule in Linz -- they were exactly the same age, although W was 2 grades behind H at the school -- In _Mein Kampf_ -- if I remember the story correctly -- H. says that there was a wealthy Jewish student at the school -- he doesn't give a name -- to whom all his hatred of the Jews can be traced -- I've heard it speculated that W. was that student. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:15:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: WCW's line In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was not knocking it I was not putting it down WCW was alright but the duino elegies in such a mode are thick and ordinary On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > The three step line > is not an "avant-garde" technique > but an attempt to regularize > "free verse" > make it almost > routine so that > it might be used for longer > more discursive poems > such as "Of Asphodel, that greeny flower > I come, my sweet, > to sing to you." > which I have read with pleasure > repeatedly > over the past twenty years > or more > > Of course, I am not getting the right cadence here. Wittgenstein said > that understanding a musical phrase is analogous to understanding a > sentence, "more than one might think." I love these flashes of intuition, > as when he speaks of someone buying several copies of the morning paper to > make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved Rilke's > poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. > > Jonathan Mayhew > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: St. Mark's Rain Taxi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, just picked up the new St. Mark's PP Newsletter (#171) and notice the editorial change (Coultas and Sikelianos) and its colorado/nature slant (john wright on community gardens and collom...) Notice also that poetry is being published in it again, and notice that it is now no longer strictly publishing "SWEETHEART REVIEWS" and is perhaps going to allow for the kind of controversy and dialogue it hasn't seen since the jordan davis regime. Well, we'll see---though I disagree with the angle of the particular negative review included in it I applaud the editors for their willingness to raise such issues.... Also of note in St Mark's newsletter: two reviews that mention the first line of Ashbery's THREE POEMS (one on Ashbery by someone I've never heard of--Daniel Kane) and another one on Heather Ramsdell by Mark Wallace. Kane also shows that Ashbery is responding to Padgett in one of his poems (an interesting review that may challenge the dichotomy Debrot proposed last month), and reviews of Notley's new book as well as Charles North's book of essays--which I am hoping to get when my adjunct checks start rolling in like little toothpick boats Also, an ad for chapbooks from some Talisman subsidiary called JENSEN/DANIELS. It almost sounds like it should have some slogan like "Books for the discriminating palate" beneath it, but it doesn't. (and a review of Edwin Torres' CD by Josie McKee) RAIN TAXI--is also great, kicking off with some controversial letters to the editor (Marilyn Lynds pointing out that Ashbery's "The Dong With The Luminous Nose" is NOT an erection but based on a poem by a man named lear.... And William Heyen defending his book against a reviewer Also includes a great interview by Brian Evenson with John Yau, a non-octupus shaped cartoon by my roommate (ah nepotism!)-- ANOTHER review of ramsdell, and NOTLEY---- a great piece on Frank Stanford's unpublished epic (which CD Wright doesn't seem to like) "The Battlefield Where The Moon Says I Love You" By Brett Ralph, and other pieces on Stanford, Other highlights: A review on Bernstein's CLOSE LISTENING that does a fairly good job of summing up much of the book (though it ignores Perelman's contribution), and finally a review of a biography of the late great BILLY TIPTON!!!!!!!!! Do people here know about Billy Tipton???????? I always wondered how she fooled her wives into believing she was a male, and here the mystery is solved (but still hard to believe)....... Well, a lot more I skipped of course. But it's nice to see an eclectic range of writers here, and sure beats reading nothing but the newspapers on the subway......... c ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: mag list 62 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" do not send anything to the address Spencer listed for lower limit speech -- nobody is home -- as Spencer knows, the only reason I have moved so many times in the last five years is so that his list will perpetually have at least one erroneous listing, like the ghost entries in commercial bibliographies -- if you have ever mailed anything to lower limit speech and gotten no reply, you probably sent it to one of those addresses I had already left -- lower limit is, as am I, now at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles -- a new issue will appear soon -- if you are a subscriber, you will get it, and the new address -- subscriptions may not be purchased for any amount of money -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:49:21 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VILAMOURA, Portugal (Reuters) - The Academy of American Poets issued what it said was a virtual ultimatum Thursday to Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic to stop the violence in Kosovo or face poetic retribution. So far, only Germany has went on record agreeing with the poets stance by agreeing a formal deadline should be set, their defense ministers agreed Milosevic must quickly obey the Poets' order to halt the crackdown on ethnic Albanians in the Serbian province or take the consequences. U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen told journalists that "I am happy to see that poets still have a miniscule amount of revolutionary power." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:49:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Mitchell, Rilke etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to George Thompson and Pierre Joris for glimpses under the hood of the Mitchell threshing-machine and to Ron Silliman for signing up on the "actively disturbed" (quoth Chris Stroffolino) side of things. Am voting for the Bill Gates (via Tom Beard) version of "Herbsttag"--I mean, "den shrewd weenie"! Who can compete with that? I do tend to wax apoplectic on this subject as the unfortunate recipient of any number of Mitchell texts given as gifts by well-meaning friends and family members with the shining hope that they are thereby giving me "poetry." And this is the real shame, that these Velveeta versions (or maybe Stepford texts) are substituted for the real strange thing and are out there contributing to the general anemia. So I remain vastly puzzled as to how Mitchell's versions can be "less easy-affirmation, more self-doubting, etc." Here's a line chosen at random from Job, first King James and then Mitchell: Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Stand up now like a man; I will question you: please, instruct me. Feh! Is this what was called "the smoothing out of the crunchier parts"? How do we not mind this? Earnestly desiring instruction, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:51:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jesus said appearing nightly at Canadian doughnut shop BRAS D'OR, Nova Scotia (Reuters) - Jesus may be trying to send a message to night owls on their midnight doughnut binges. Or perhaps He just craves a cup of coffee. Either way, hundreds of people are flocking to the Tim Horton's doughnut shop in the small Cape Breton Island town of Bras D'Or on Canada's Atlantic coast to see a Christ-like image that has inexplicably appeared on an outside wall. The apparition first showed up Monday and was said to be clearly visible to staff at a restaurant across the road under the shop's floodlights. ``They removed the light yesterday ... but now apparently you can see it towards the side of the building, as if the image has moved,'' said a waitress at the nearby Lick-a-Chick restaurant. ``People are coming from far and wide to see it.'' The waitress, who did not want to be identified, said there is little to see in the daylight -- the image is clearest at night -- but there were traffic jams around the doughnut shop Thursday morning as the curious and credulous flocked to the site. ``Apparently, it's really, really busy up there already today. I guess the traffic is crazy and there's cars parked all around,'' said Diane Slopek, a spokeswoman for the Tim Horton's chain, which is owned by Wendy's International Inc . ``We're just puzzled by the whole situation.'' ^REUTERS@ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:03:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Dongs and Noses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > (Marilyn Lynds pointing out that Ashbery's >"The Dong With The Luminous Nose" is NOT an erection but based >on a poem by a man named lear.. However, in his _Under the Volcano_ , Malcolm Lowry has "The Nose With the Luminous Dong". db3. . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:05:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: f.y.i. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lick-a-Chick? That waitress must be Mary Magdalene. Where's Kenneth Starr when you need him? Who says that Canadians speak the same language as their neighbors to the south? At 10:51 PM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jesus said appearing nightly at Canadian doughnut shop > > > BRAS D'OR, Nova Scotia (Reuters) - Jesus may be trying to >send a message to night owls on their midnight doughnut binges. >Or perhaps He just craves a cup of coffee. > Either way, hundreds of people are flocking to the Tim >Horton's doughnut shop in the small Cape Breton Island town of >Bras D'Or on Canada's Atlantic coast to see a Christ-like image >that has inexplicably appeared on an outside wall. > The apparition first showed up Monday and was said to be >clearly visible to staff at a restaurant across the road under >the shop's floodlights. > ``They removed the light yesterday ... but now apparently >you can see it towards the side of the building, as if the image >has moved,'' said a waitress at the nearby Lick-a-Chick >restaurant. > ``People are coming from far and wide to see it.'' > The waitress, who did not want to be identified, said there >is little to see in the daylight -- the image is clearest at >night -- but there were traffic jams around the doughnut shop >Thursday morning as the curious and credulous flocked to the >site. > ``Apparently, it's really, really busy up there already >today. I guess the traffic is crazy and there's cars parked all >around,'' said Diane Slopek, a spokeswoman for the Tim Horton's >chain, which is owned by Wendy's International Inc . > ``We're just puzzled by the whole situation.'' > > ^REUTERS@ > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:28:58 -0400 Reply-To: molinaj@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joanne Molina Organization: DePaul University Subject: Trakl translations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a short request for information regarding Trakl translations. Who and where can I find decent translations of Trakl? I am studying Heidegger and Trakl next semester and multiple suggestions would be helpful. Thanks! Joanne Molina ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:16:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the third space In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Eliza : you mean CHEERS isn't really in Boston? David Well, since the red Sox clinched the wild card berth today, there are cheers in Fenway. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 05:36:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: St. Mark's Rain Taxi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, louis stroffolino wrote: > Hey, just picked up the new St. Mark's PP Newsletter (#171) > and notice the editorial change (Coultas and Sikelianos) and > its colorado/nature slant Coultas' three poems in Syc Rev 10.2 -- "Hayhedge," "Hayroll," & "Third Farming Poem" -- have a goon's panache. Nutso eclogues. gg ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:05:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Spandrift Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:49:00 -0700 from On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:49:00 -0700 Rachel Loden said: > > Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and >answer thou me. > Here's the Duke Spandrift version: Giddyup them lions, likker-man; y'know damn well if you don't, I will - so lay down yer hand, greenhorn - it's my call! I know this ain't a literal version, but I think it pretty much reciprocitates the atmosphere of the Biblical Old West, huh? - Jack Spandrift p.s. I vote for the Rilke version by that Eric Blarnes fella - damn good, prof! Cept the line - "Goad the late grapes" - how bout SPUR the late grapes? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Rushdie Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_2989558972_3564831_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_2989558972_3564831_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A ray of hope for Salman Rushdie, though it doesn't mean he's out of danger -- this from today's TIMES: By BARBARA CROSSETTE UNITED NATIONS -- On Thursday, the Iranian foreign minister publicly divorced his government from the death threat imposed on British author Salman Rushdie in 1989 by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, and Britain responde= d by restoring full diplomatic relations. "The government of the Islamic Republic of Iran has no intention, nor is it going to take any action whatsoever to threaten the life of the author of 'The Satanic Verses' or anybody associated with his work, nor will it encourage or assist anybody to do so," the Iranian foreign minister, Kamal Kharrazi, said in a statement that he read to reporters Thursday. Kharrazi's remarks followed comments made in New York on Tuesday by Iran's president, Mohammad Khatami, who told reporters that the Rushdie affair was "completely finished." Standing next to Kharrazi, British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said he was "delighted" to hear Iran's position clarified and to know that the reward offered to anyone willing to kill Rushdie had been officially renounced. Although an Iranian foundation continues to offer a $2.5 million bounty for the death of the year-old Indian-born British author, whose novel Kharrazi said still offended Iranians, the foreign minister said his government "dissociates itself from any reward that has been offered in this regard an= d does not support it." A somewhat stunned Rushdie, interviewed by telephone in London, said Thursday night, "It's over." "Until I went into the meeting with the British government, I wasn't sure," he said. "But they have told me emphatically that this is it. It's a breakthrough, and it's over. It's done. There is no longer any threat from the Iranian regime. The fatwa will be left to wither on the vine." In addition to meeting with officials from the British Foreign Office, Rushdie spoke by telephone with Cook twice Thursday, and said he was convinced by the government's assurances. "I am given unequivocal and emphatic and definite information from the British government that it's true," he said. Rushdie, who over the years often seemed on the verge of being released fro= m his death sentence, only to have the Iranian government reiterate its commitment to the fatwa, or religious edict, said he wasn't sure how to handle the thought of freedom, and had not yet begun making arrangements, for instance, to travel in public without a team of Special Branch agents guarding him. It was not clear what his new security, if any, might entail.= "When you're so used to getting hard news -- and by that I mean bad news -- then news like this is almost unbelievable," he said. "It's like being told the cancer is gone. Well, the cancer's gone." He added, "This has been an enduring and collective effort, and I want to thank all those people who helped, many of whom are in the United States, including the government of the United States." Rushdie's book, which was first banned in India, in the fall of 1988, and prompted riots in Pakistan in early 1989 just before coming under Khomeini'= s edict, shocked Muslims in many countries, who deemed it blasphemous. The book, written in Rushdie's most surreal style, includes a dream sequenc= e with prostitutes impersonating the wives of Mohammed to improve their business. It also refers to Mohammed as Mahound, a demon in Christian morality plays. Rushdie, who was born a Muslim, was seen as a traitor to hi= s faith. After Khomeini called for Rushdie's death, the author was forced to seek haven in a series of safe houses in London and was guarded around the clock= . In recent years, Rushdie was able to travel abroad from time to time, but always under tight security. He has made several visits to New York, to promote books he has written since "The Satanic Verses" and to appear on television interviews and in small public gatherings. Rushdie, the co-editor most recently of an anthology of South Asian writing titled "Mirrorworks," has never been able to return to his birthplace, Bombay, India, however, and has not ventured into Islamic countries, where emotions still run high. At an impromptu news conference Thursday after meeting Kharrazi, Cook said, "Her Majesty's government recognized the fundamental role of Islam in Iranian life and understood and regretted the offense the book 'The Satanic Verses' has caused to Muslims in Iran and elsewhere in the world." Cook said the understanding reached Thursday with Kharrazi would improve ties with the European Union as well as Britain. The British, who had been represented in Tehran by a charge d'affaires, said Thursday that they would raise the level of representation to ambassador. "These assurances should make possible a much more constructive relationshi= p between the United Kingdom and I believe the European Union, with Iran, and the opening of a new chapter in our relations," Cook said. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who received something of a rebuff from the Iranians this week, was less enthusiastic. The United States has not had diplomatic relations with Iran since the seizure of the U.S. Embass= y and the taking of American hostages in 1979 during the revolution that brought Khomeini to power. Khomeini died in June 1989, a few months after the edict was issued. "The question is, how will it be implemented," Albright said of Iran's pledge to distance itself from the bounty. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --MS_Mac_OE_2989558972_3564831_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Rushdie A ray of hope for Salman Rushdie, though it doesn't mean he's out of danger= -- this from today's TIMES:

By BARBARA CROSSETTE

UNITED NATIONS -- On Thursday, the Irania= n foreign minister publicly divorced his government from the death threat im= posed on British author Salman Rushdie in 1989 by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomein= i, and Britain responded by restoring full diplomatic relations.
"The government of the Islamic Republic of Iran has no intention, nor = is it going to take any action whatsoever to threaten the life of the author= of 'The Satanic Verses' or anybody associated with his work, nor will it en= courage or assist anybody to do so," the Iranian foreign minister, Kama= l Kharrazi, said in a statement that he read to reporters Thursday.
Kharrazi's remarks followed comments made in New York on Tuesday by Iran's = president, Mohammad Khatami, who told reporters that the Rushdie affair was = "completely finished."
Standing next to Kharrazi, British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said he was= "delighted" to hear Iran's position clarified and to know that th= e reward offered to anyone willing to kill Rushdie had been officially renou= nced.
Although an Iranian foundation continues to offer a $2.5 million bounty for= the death of the year-old Indian-born British author, whose novel Kharrazi = said still offended Iranians, the foreign minister said his government "= ;dissociates itself from any reward that has been offered in this regard and= does not support it."
A somewhat stunned Rushdie, interviewed by telephone in London, said Thursd= ay night, "It's over."
"Until I went into the meeting with the British government, I wasn't s= ure," he said. "But they have told me emphatically that this is it= . It's a breakthrough, and it's over. It's done. There is no longer any thre= at from the Iranian regime. The fatwa will be left to wither on the vine.&qu= ot;
In addition to meeting with officials from the British Foreign Office, Rush= die spoke by telephone with Cook twice Thursday, and said he was convinced b= y the government's assurances. "I am given unequivocal and emphatic and= definite information from the British government that it's true," he s= aid.
Rushdie, who over the years often seemed on the verge of being released fro= m his death sentence, only to have the Iranian government reiterate its comm= itment to the fatwa, or religious edict, said he wasn't sure how to handle t= he thought of freedom, and had not yet begun making arrangements, for instan= ce, to travel in public without a team of Special Branch agents guarding him= . It was not clear what his new security, if any, might entail.
"When you're so used to getting hard news -- and by that I mean bad ne= ws -- then news like this is almost unbelievable," he said. "It's = like being told the cancer is gone. Well, the cancer's gone."
He added, "This has been an enduring and collective effort, and I want= to thank all those people who helped, many of whom are in the United States= , including the government of the United States."
Rushdie's book, which was first banned in India, in the fall of 1988, and p= rompted riots in Pakistan in early 1989 just before coming under Khomeini's = edict, shocked Muslims in many countries, who deemed it blasphemous.
The book, written in Rushdie's most surreal style, includes a dream sequenc= e with prostitutes impersonating the wives of Mohammed to improve their busi= ness. It also refers to Mohammed as Mahound, a demon in Christian morality p= lays. Rushdie, who was born a Muslim, was seen as a traitor to his faith. After Khomeini called for Rushdie's death, the author was forced to seek ha= ven in a series of safe houses in London and was guarded around the clock. <= BR> In recent years, Rushdie was able to travel abroad from time to time, but a= lways under tight security. He has made several visits to New York, to promo= te books he has written since "The Satanic Verses" and to appear o= n television interviews and in small public gatherings.
Rushdie, the co-editor most recently of an anthology of South Asian writing= titled "Mirrorworks," has never been able to return to his birthp= lace, Bombay, India, however, and has not ventured into Islamic countries, w= here emotions still run high.
At an impromptu news conference Thursday after meeting Kharrazi, Cook said,= "Her Majesty's government recognized the fundamental role of Islam in = Iranian life and understood and regretted the offense the book 'The Satanic = Verses' has caused to Muslims in Iran and elsewhere in the world."
Cook said the understanding reached Thursday with Kharrazi would improve ti= es with the European Union as well as Britain. The British, who had been rep= resented in Tehran by a charge d'affaires, said Thursday that they would rai= se the level of representation to ambassador.
"These assurances should make possible a much more constructive relati= onship between the United Kingdom and I believe the European Union, with Ira= n, and the opening of a new chapter in our relations," Cook said.
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who received something of a rebuff f= rom the Iranians this week, was less enthusiastic. The United States has not= had diplomatic relations with Iran since the seizure of the U.S. Embassy an= d the taking of American hostages in 1979 during the revolution that brought= Khomeini to power. Khomeini died in June 1989, a few months after the edict= was issued.
"The question is, how will it be implemented," Albright said of I= ran's pledge to distance itself from the bounty.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Pierre Joris
joris@csc.albany.edu
http://www.albany.edu/~joris/
6 Madison Place
Albany NY 12202
tel: 518 426 0433
fax: 518 426 3722
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme
      -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--MS_Mac_OE_2989558972_3564831_MIME_Part-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Cixous/Derrida Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Excellent article cum interview in this week's LIBERATION book supplement o= n a Cixous / Derrida collaboration. go to: http://www.liberation.fr/livres/980923derrida.html P =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: mahound of the baskervilles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In the news story PJ posted, Rushdie is identified as "the year-old Indian-born British author." Boy what a *precocious* writer! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:55:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Cixous/Derrida MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Where's the Stephen Mitchell version en Anglais? Pierre Joris wrote: > Excellent article cum interview in this week's LIBERATION book supplement on > a Cixous / Derrida collaboration. go to: > http://www.liberation.fr/livres/980923derrida.html > > P > ======================== > Pierre Joris > joris@csc.albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 > tel: 518 426 0433 > fax: 518 426 3722 > ======================== > Mal tu par l'encre même > -- Stéphane Mallarmé > ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list members: I don't believe that Mitchell's translation is as artless as some of you seem to imply. When one compares his version of the final stanza of "Herbsttag," for example, with all the others that have been quoted, Mitchell's seems to me to be obviously superior. Like MacIntyre, he tries to approximate Rilke's rhyme scheme; but Mitchell is more faithful to Rilke in that he avoids the temptation of a final rhyming couplet. Mitchell's near-rhymes (somewhat like Pinsky's in his _Inferno_ translation) strike me as a graceful reconciliation with the original: they permit a plain style (like Rilke's, in this poem) that nonetheless retains a sonic pattern. And a plain style seems far preferable to the supposedly more "accurate" version of Herter Norton. "Build him one no more"? "Long will so remain"? Aren't _these_ constructions, vaguely archaic and portentous, much closer to the language of conventional spirituality? The "real strange thing" about Rilke seems to me less a matter of his diction (Augenaepfel aside) than of how his mind and imagination work. Hass's essay in the Mitchell edition gets at this strangeness. So what exactly is the complaint against Mitchell? That his books are popular? That he is interested in poetry not as a cultural artifact, but as a religious discourse? These would seem to be within his rights as an author. Andrew Rathmann, Chicago Rilke: Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben und wird in den Allen hin und her unruhig wandern, wenn die Bl=E4tter treiben. Mitchell: Whoever has no house now, will never have one. Whoever is alone will stay alone, will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, and wander on the boulevards, up and down, restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. Herter Norton: Who has no house now, will build him one no more. Who is alone now, long will so remain, will wake, read, write long letters and will in the avenues to and fro restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. MacIntyre: Who has no house now will not build him one. Who is alone now will be long alone, will waken, read, and write long letters and through the barren pathways up and down restlessly wander when dead leaves are blown. -------------- Chicago Review 5801 S. Kenwood Ave. Chicago IL 60637-1794 ph/fax 773.702.0887 e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:27:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On fri/25.sep.98 at 8.15am, Andrew Rathmann wrote: > [ ... ] > >Rilke: > >Wer jetzt kein haus hat, baut sich keines mehr. >Wer jetzt allein ist, wird es lange bleiben, >wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben >und wird in den Allen hin und her >unruhig wandern, wenn die Bl=E4tter treiben. > >Mitchell: > >Whoever has no house now, will never have one. >Whoever is alone will stay alone, >will sit, read, write long letters through the evening, >and wander on the boulevards, up and down, >restlessly, while the dry leaves are blowing. > >Herter Norton: > >Who has no house now, will build him one no more. >Who is alone now, long will so remain, >will wake, read, write long letters >and will in the avenues to and fro >restlessly wander, when the leaves are blowing. > >MacIntyre: > >Who has no house now will not build him one. >Who is alone now will be long alone, >will waken, read, and write long letters >and through the barren pathways up and down >restlessly wander when dead leaves are blown. > Ruggles: We were jesting kind roofs, fighting my sick knees. We were just alone as it is, as weird as the language of blabbers, weird and wacky, a lesson: language is the underpants of a writer and a word in the heart of All of them was hidden under her under the rug of wandering, when my bladder died trying. --trace-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:32:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: the third space Comments: To: George Bowering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Eliza : you mean CHEERS isn't really in Boston? David Well, since the red Sox clinched the wild card berth today, there are cheers in Fenway. I was wondering if I dared broach the subject of this last weekend of the season on this list, and I thank George for letting it in through the back dugout, so to speak. Poetics fans in New York, Chicago and San Francisco (arguably the three most important cities in North American poetry) are urged to comment -- poetically, of course -- on the respective merits of their teams. Chicago is my kind of town, even though I did literally leave my heart in San Francisco. (I always thought the third space WAS the baseball diamond . . . ) George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:15:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Upcoming Bridge Street Readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sunday Sept 27th Pierre Joris & Jerome Rothenberg _Poems for the Milennium_ publication celebration Sunday October 18th Jena Osman & Joan Retallack Retallack's _How to Do Things With Words_ is just out Sunday November 1st Bill Luoma & Fred Wah workin' those _Works & Days_ all readings at 8 PM Bridge Street Books 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington, DC ph 202 965 5200 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:04:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: fyi... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thought some of you might be interested in a piece i just stumbled across in FEED: "hard times in poetry land," by alissa quart http://www.feedmag.com/deepread/dr101_master.html also a piece by howard rheingold on that web=depression research... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: APORIAs Comments: To: FOP-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *Please Note* APORIA has a new address: P.O. Box 124 Station C Toronto, Ontario Canada M6J 3M7 da549@freenet.toronto.on.ca APORIA #2, the 'time' issue, is due out in December. The deadline for submissions is October 31, 1998. Space is tight; please contact me before submitting. I am looking for critical and experimental prose. APORIA #3 is on the idea of the avant-garde. What constitutes it, 'today'? What explains the persistence of the notion? What of the histories, the ahistoricities, the anachronisms and the _perfect timings_? And what are the secret histories? And is an avant-garde still possible? Desirable? And what avant-garde, avant-propos of what; whose battle and for what territory? Deadline January 1, 1999. Finally, thanks to the list and to all who have sent work and/or subscribed. Ryan Whyte ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:45:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Cixous/Derrida In-Reply-To: <199809251321.JAA24874@sarah.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the tip. A very good piece, a good bit of which is scarcely translatable, dependent as it is on puns and homynyms peculiar to French.=20 Wonderful to comtemplate what kind of intellectual forum a popular newspaper can be in a country that insists on educating its citizens. On the other hand the French do PhyEd very badly (but somehow, dspite their pollution, alcohol and nicotine, manage to outlive us). At 09:24 AM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Excellent article cum interview in this week's LIBERATION book supplement= on >a Cixous / Derrida collaboration. go to: >http://www.liberation.fr/livres/980923derrida.html > >P >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Pierre Joris >joris@csc.albany.edu >http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ >6 Madison Place >Albany NY 12202 >tel: 518 426 0433 >fax: 518 426 3722 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Mal tu par l'encre m=EAme > -- St=E9phane Mallarm=E9 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Epoch Mag Needs Help In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1). _Epoch_ magazine at Cornell University published no poetry in its last issue. 2). I have looked at _Epoch_'s slushpile and can report the mag gets few poetry submissions. 3). This must change. This is therefore a call for help. 4). You're thinking, "Epoch is a venue I'm not interested in." 5). Nonsense. The magazine has been known to publish genuinely non-gooey ink, even avant-garde things. 5). What I'm saying is there is, like, a poetry paucity at this magazine. 6). This is a bad thing. 7). I am asking that you send work to Epoch care of Burlin Barr, Poetry Editor, 251 Goldwin Smith, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853. 8). Submitting here will not hurt you. You have nothing to lose. You're good people. Epoch's good people. Give it a try, Buck. Epoch reports back with ok alacrity. 9). Do I need to repeat myself? 10). OK so I need to repeat myself. Send work for christsake. a). What do you care anyway: whoever ASKS for poetry? I'm asking. 11). If you're proud, you're poor. Gabriel Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:49:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A reminder to those in the San Diego Area: Chris Reiner and I are reading on Sunday at the Faultline Theater, on the west side of 5th just south of Spruce. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:02:06 +0000 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: ultimatum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, David, for the Reuters wire. I would like to point out that Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen has published two books of poetry with Morrow. Cohen, a New Georgian poet just like his pals at the The Academy of American Poets, in his quote captures the "virtual" (read delusional) spirit of the Academy's ultimatum. Meanwhile, I've been reading Diana Johnstone's background piece on Yugoslavia in the new Covert Action Quarterly. Its basicly a rehash but she makes some interesting observations about liberal NGOs in the region. I guess the Academy is a kind of faux NGO because even their ultimatum is not likely to garner any IMF, corporate or state money. The Reuters wire points out that only Germany so far has supported the Academy's ultimatum. Perhaps, that's because Germany leapt in prematurely to recognize Croat and Slovenian independence and to declare the Serbs the new Nazi's as though it were a curse that could be pass on to another people. In point of fact it was the Croat Ustashe that aligned with the Nazis during the Second World war and the Nazis, themselves, were said to be horrified by the Croats brutality against the Serbs, Gypsies and others. Even the German foreign minister at the time objected to the move to support Croat and Slovenian independence. But it was seen as tantamount to the economic annexation of two of the more potentially wealthy regions in the former Yugoslavia. Such secession was illegal under Yugoslav and international law but the Germans legitimized the move, held off international opinion against it and helped precipitate the atrocities commited on all sides. Cohen in a poem called Deng's Revolution to his great hero, the late Chinese Premier Deng Shiao Ping, writes: Let your vision for propsperity whisper to the world without violence and low, like the wind in the wheat fields. Of course, Deng said "To grow rich is glorious" so he's alright in Cohen's book. What's a little slaughter when the blood runs green. Besdies against the tide of all history, Cohen, 'wished' the transition proceed 'without violence'. That's certainly a trait of the New Georgians--delusional wishing.No wonder in between bombing pharmaceutical plants, Cohen chooses to write poems in the style of the New Georgians. What is the Academy going to do; write ten poems for every Croat Milosevic slaughters. Such levity in the face of such horror only serves to demonstrate the impotence of the Academy as emphasized by their fellow Neo-Georgian, Bill Cohen.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:28:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Hokusai's Visit to Kyoto, 1828 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Hokusai's Visit to Kyoto, 1828 (Bunsei 11) Hokusai kicks higher into the air than safety would allow! Hokusai heartily moves upward and downward on the same spot and fast! Hokusai runs aimlessly around the MOO, Coyote on the loose! I don't understand that. Hokusai cries, half in sadness and mourning, half in pure exhaustion. Hokusai laughs infectiously and everyone desires to join in! I don't understand that. Hokusai kisses everyone, remembering safe sex, and the kindness of strangers! Hokusai walks around Kyoto looking at everyone through his eyes. Kyoto an intense clearing, city-basin, distant humans, everywhere visible... You see snow, Luminous Sign, and the City of Wind here. Player name Connected Idle time Location ----------- --------- --------- -------- Hokusai (#127) a minute 0 seconds Kyoto Total: 1 player, who has been active recently. I don't understand that. Flap flap flap flap flap flap! while Hokusai flies away! _________hokusai___________________________________________________05:28 fall fly _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:42:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Epoch Mag Needs Help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll second this. Barr is a good editor and Epoch is a good magazine open to interesting work (heck, they published me twice). Hugh Steinberg >1). _Epoch_ magazine at Cornell University published no poetry in its last >issue. > >2). I have looked at _Epoch_'s slushpile and can report the mag gets few >poetry submissions. > >3). This must change. This is therefore a call for help. > >4). You're thinking, "Epoch is a venue I'm not interested in." > >5). Nonsense. The magazine has been known to publish genuinely non-gooey >ink, even avant-garde things. > >5). What I'm saying is there is, like, a poetry paucity at this magazine. > >6). This is a bad thing. > >7). I am asking that you send work to Epoch care of Burlin Barr, Poetry >Editor, 251 Goldwin Smith, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853. > >8). Submitting here will not hurt you. You have nothing to lose. You're >good people. Epoch's good people. Give it a try, Buck. Epoch reports back >with ok alacrity. > >9). Do I need to repeat myself? > >10). OK so I need to repeat myself. Send work for christsake. > a). What do you care anyway: whoever ASKS for poetry? I'm asking. > >11). If you're proud, you're poor. > > > >Gabriel Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: ultimatum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit R. Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote: > I would like to point out that > Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen has published two books of poetry > with Morrow. Michael Moore was recently at Department of Defense with camera crew following Cohen around 'roger and me' style, inquiring about his poetry. mc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:24:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: Epoch Mag Needs Help In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As a former _Epoch_ editor-type (back in CS Giscombe's days), I can vouch for the magazine's "quality." And knowing Burl Barr, I can vouch for his seriousness & goodness. But let's face it--the magazine has taken a strong turn towards the fiction side of things in the last few years; are you intimating, Gabriel, that one wouldn't be wasting one's postage, paper, and printer cartridge to send disjunctive / alyrical / "experimental" work _Epoch_'s way? (If so, more power to yez.) Mark Scroggins On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > 1). _Epoch_ magazine at Cornell University published no poetry in its last > issue. > > 2). I have looked at _Epoch_'s slushpile and can report the mag gets few > poetry submissions. > > 3). This must change. This is therefore a call for help. > > 4). You're thinking, "Epoch is a venue I'm not interested in." > > 5). Nonsense. The magazine has been known to publish genuinely non-gooey > ink, even avant-garde things. > > 5). What I'm saying is there is, like, a poetry paucity at this magazine. > > 6). This is a bad thing. > > 7). I am asking that you send work to Epoch care of Burlin Barr, Poetry > Editor, 251 Goldwin Smith, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853. > > 8). Submitting here will not hurt you. You have nothing to lose. You're > good people. Epoch's good people. Give it a try, Buck. Epoch reports back > with ok alacrity. > > 9). Do I need to repeat myself? > > 10). OK so I need to repeat myself. Send work for christsake. > a). What do you care anyway: whoever ASKS for poetry? I'm asking. > > 11). If you're proud, you're poor. > > > > Gabriel Gudding > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Garrett Kalleberg Subject: Trakl, Rilke Comments: To: Poetics List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Would the person who put out the MS Herbsttag v 1.0 please backchannel me at the address below (I lost the postting). Also, anyone doing translations of Rilke, Hoelderlin, Trakl, or Sabine Techel, Barbara Koehler, Brigitte Oleschinski, or other contemporary Germans, please contact me. Thanks, Garrett Garrett Kalleberg mailto:kalleberg@morningred.com The Transcendental Friend can be found at: http://www.morningred.com/friend ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:41:41 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: ultimatum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carlo-- Thanks for picking up on that. The books you refer to are _Of sons and Seasons_ and _A Baker's Nickel_ which are rated 372,252 and 638,074 at amazon (just so Ron knows). But the best is the one was written with ex pres canidate, this is a review from it: The Double Man : A Novel William S. Cohen, Gary Hart Amazon.com Sales Rank: 492,724 Avg. Customer Review: ; Number of Reviews: 1 Robert Peltzman (Bopeltzman@aol.com) from Los Angeles, CA , January 21, 1998 Complete waste of time. Totally unfulfilling. Absolutely no sense of completion. My only guess is that everything will be resolved in a future book (though I wouldn't read it). The book was written well but that only leads to the expectation that there will be some substance to the plot. The reader never finds out: 1. Who the double man is (if there is one). 2. What really happens to Elaine. 3. Who her father really is, etc. The protagonist (investigator) never finds out anything himself but is told everything by secret "deep-throat" types. The ending is wrapped up in a few pages by someone who seems to be in a hurry to get back to the Senate floor for roll-call. In exchange for learning about some inside workings of the senate, we are forced to except a far fetched plot that magically ties up the JFK asassination, drug smuggling, the Mafia, and secret KGB plots. I got this paperback at a book sale and I don't think it was worth the 50 cents that it cost. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:06:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: ultimatum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How good... no... what a relief to see someone point out that there is another point of view... was watching tv a while back, a thing I rarely do so I don't know how frequent it is, and someone talking about Bosnia began to criticise the Croat side relative to the Serbs; and the chair immediately cut in and said "Well, we don't want to go into the details" I'm still hoping to hear a NATO warning for China to get out of Tibet. Of course, the Chinese might shoot back. What's this got to do with poetry? Well, I'd rather hear more critical news and fewer war poems by people who have not been to the countries involved L -----Original Message----- From: R. Gancie/C.Parcelli Date: 25 September 1998 18:02 Subject: ultimatum |In point of fact it was the Croat Ustashe that |aligned with the Nazis during the Second World war and the Nazis, |themselves, were said to be horrified by the Croats brutality against |the Serbs, Gypsies and others... |Even the German foreign minister at the time objected to the move to |support Croat and Slovenian independence. But it was seen as tantamount |to the economic annexation of two of the more potentially wealthy |regions in the former Yugoslavia. Such secession was illegal under |Yugoslav and international law but the Germans legitimized the move, |held off international opinion against it and helped precipitate the |atrocities commited on all sides. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: More on Epoch Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDE91A.47B66840" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDE91A.47B66840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me third the value of Epoch magazine. It has a long, noble history. = Epoch was the first place ever to publish Lyn Hejinian (1964?) and the = students at Cornell in the early 70s extended the work of the mag into = the creation of the late lamented Ithaca House Press, which published = the first books of Bob Perelman, David Melnick and yours truly, plus the = second book of Ray DiPalma's. There's more to Ithaca than "gorging out," Ron Silliman ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDE91A.47B66840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let me third the value of Epoch = magazine. It has=20 a long, noble history. Epoch was the first place ever to publish Lyn = Hejinian=20 (1964?) and the students at Cornell in the early 70s extended the work = of the=20 mag into the creation of the late lamented Ithaca House Press, which = published=20 the first books of Bob Perelman, David Melnick and yours truly, plus the = second=20 book of Ray DiPalma's. There's more to Ithaca than "gorging=20 out,"
 
Ron = Silliman
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDE91A.47B66840-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:36:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: More on Epoch In-Reply-To: <000b01bde944$32f050e0$3de0fea9@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ithaca House (under John Latta at that point) did my book in 1985, NEW FACES OF 1952, for which I am grateful. And judging from the excellent writers we publish in New American Writing and the numerous excellent writers we have to turn away (doing an annual mag), there are plenty of people out there for Epoch. MAxine Chernoff On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Ron Silliman wrote: > Let me third the value of Epoch magazine. It has a long, noble history. Epoch was the first place ever to publish Lyn Hejinian (1964?) and the students at Cornell in the early 70s extended the work of the mag into the creation of the late lamented Ithaca House Press, which published the first books of Bob Perelman, David Melnick and yours truly, plus the second book of Ray DiPalma's. There's more to Ithaca than "gorging out," > > Ron Silliman > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:54:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Epoch Mag Needs Help In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Mark W Scroggins wrote: > seriousness & goodness. But let's face it--the magazine has taken a > strong turn towards the fiction side of things in the last few years; are > you intimating, Gabriel, that one wouldn't be wasting one's postage, > paper, and printer cartridge to send disjunctive / alyrical / > "experimental" work _Epoch_'s way? (If so, more power to yez.) Heck no, Mark -- not intimating that at all at all. Only that you're right to think that the magazine favors the lyrical -- BUT it doesn't exclusively favor it. Burl is totally open to non-lyrical work, to unrecognizable work: he's a good patient solid thoughtful reader. He knows that just as one writer can be capable of the traditional lyric as well as new lyrical or alyrical work, so also can one typical Epoch reader want to read both, either, or something completely different. Yes, Epoch just turned in a big-way toward fiction: but this is a turn less of editorial policy, I think, than of reputation's vicissitudes (i.e., Epoch just won the O'Henry Awards and was voted best mag of the year, beating out even The New Yorker -- or something like this), and I'm reporting to you that because of this new rep, we're getting fewer poetry submissions, and I'm basically GIVING EVERYONE A TIP: opportunities, opportunities, opportunities... Please send. G. Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:11:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: FOR UK (South East) LISTERS: a reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saturday 3 October 8.30pm BAC Lavender Hill Battersea (Clapham Junction BR) 0171 223 2223 The Unspeakable Rooms Text: Alaric Sumner. Devised and performed: Rory McDermott. "Dense, enigmatic, poetic, tightly structured..., The Unspeakable Rooms employed language and the ghosts and shadows of language, the human body and its projected double, the human voice and its recorded echo, in order to explore their limitations, language's 'tumbled towers' and the body's 'unspeakable ruins'. " Frank Green, Cleveland Free Times, Ohio Arts Council Combined Arts Funded part of British Festival of Visual Theatre ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:39:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Epoch Mag Needs Help In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII a.) Mark et alii: I apologize for misreading yr negative (see below) for a positive. b.) There was a speck of desk-meringue stuck to my screen, occluding your "n't." c.) You wouldn't be wasting your postage, paper, printer, or time. d.) Please send. > On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Mark W Scroggins & Gabe Gudding wrote: > > > strong turn towards the fiction side of things in the last few years; are > > you intimating, Gabriel, that one wouldn't be wasting one's postage, > > paper, and printer cartridge to send disjunctive / alyrical / > > "experimental" work _Epoch_'s way? > > > Heck no, Mark -- not intimating that at all at all. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:55:24 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: WCW's line Content-Type: text/plain Chris Stroffolino wrote > I was not > knocking it > I was not > putting it down > WCW > was alright > but the duino elegies > in such > a mode > are thick and ordinary > > >On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > >> The three step line >> is not an "avant-garde" technique >> but an attempt to regularize >> "free verse" >> make it almost >> routine so that >> it might be used for longer >> more discursive poems >> such as "Of Asphodel, that greeny flower >> I come, my sweet, >> to sing to you." >> which I have read with pleasure >> repeatedly >> over the past twenty years >> or more >> >> Of course, I am not getting the right cadence here. Wittgenstein said >> that understanding a musical phrase is analogous to understanding a >> sentence, "more than one might think." I love these flashes of intuition, >> as when he speaks of someone buying several copies of the morning paper to >> make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved Rilke's >> poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. >> >> Jonathan Mayhew >> > Then again I'm Not sure as I always Agree W/ WCW's claims for his work, as against The work itself. (C.f. an essay by Perloff Which Brilliantly Makes this case, regarding something W. C.W. said of His poem about the broken Glass Outside the hospital. (The essay is in _William Carlos Williams: Man & Poet_)). So, It seems to me While the 3-step line _was_ an attempt To regularize "Free verse" (Used, As Jonathan points out To great effect in "Asphodel"), It's effect, Like the short line generally Is also to materialize the poetic line, Working Against the discursive flow. Thus, Chris's Association of this w/ The "avant-garde" Is not all wrong. ==Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:56:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: A.BACUS 1999 season MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Potes & Poets Press announces the 15th year of A.BACUS issues with new writings by the following: #119 Jan 1 Buck Downs #120 Feb 15 Norma Cole #121 Apr 1 Kevin Magee #122 May 15 Cheryl Burket #123 Jul 1 Lisa Adriani #124 Aug 15 John Noto #125 Oct 1 Barbara Hocker #126 Nov 15 John Lowther A.BACUS is a 16 to 26 page newsletter sent in an envelope first class postage to your address. It is printed on 25% cotton paper and features innovative work by many types of writers. UNTIL NOVEMBER 15TH, the subscription rate is $26. After that, it goes to $30. Canada and overseas, always $30US. Thanks... Peter Ganick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:56:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Re: WCW's line Comments: cc: avidaver@unixg.ubc.ca In-Reply-To: <19980926195524.10548.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Mark DuCharme" at Sep 26, 98 12:55:24 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this as an experiment: "sew" a triadic line poem back together and scan. I did this some time ago, and discovered that many lines turned out to be iambic pentameter. Apologies, Bill. Roger > > Chris Stroffolino wrote > > > I was not > > knocking it > > I was not > > putting it down > > WCW > > was alright > > but the duino elegies > > in such > > a mode > > are thick and ordinary > > > > > >On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > > > >> The three step line > >> is not an "avant-garde" technique > >> but an attempt to regularize > >> "free verse" > >> make it almost > >> routine so that > >> it might be used for longer > >> more discursive poems > >> such as "Of Asphodel, that greeny flower > >> I come, my sweet, > >> to sing to you." > >> which I have read with pleasure > >> repeatedly > >> over the past twenty years > >> or more > >> > >> Of course, I am not getting the right cadence here. Wittgenstein > said > >> that understanding a musical phrase is analogous to understanding a > >> sentence, "more than one might think." I love these flashes of > intuition, > >> as when he speaks of someone buying several copies of the morning > paper to > >> make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved > Rilke's > >> poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. > >> > >> Jonathan Mayhew > >> > > > > Then again > I'm > Not sure as I always > Agree > W/ WCW's claims > for his work, as against > The work itself. > (C.f. an essay by Perloff > Which > Brilliantly > Makes this case, regarding something W. > C.W. said of > His poem about the broken > Glass > Outside the hospital. > (The essay is in _William > Carlos Williams: Man & Poet_)). > So, > It seems to me > While the 3-step line _was_ an attempt > To regularize > "Free verse" > (Used, > As Jonathan points out > To great effect in "Asphodel"), > It's effect, > Like the short line generally > > Is also to materialize the poetic line, > Working > Against the discursive flow. Thus, Chris's > Association of this w/ > The "avant-garde" > Is not all wrong. > > ==Mark DuCharme > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:19:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: WCW's line In-Reply-To: <199809262356.QAA29468@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And many more that didn't. This rather misses the point. WCW was not obsessed with avoiding the iamb at all costs, he was inventing a different kind of metrics and a different way of conceiving same. The lineation is never for the sake of a predesigned formula. Try reading each part of the triad as a metric unit. So, in "The Ivy Crown" (I opened at random) there are only two triads that could be scanned as iambic. The first reads but being mortal can defy our fate. We may This is not iambic hexameter. This is three variable feet. The swing is completely different At 04:56 PM 9/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >Try this as an experiment: "sew" a triadic line poem back together and >scan. I did this some time ago, and discovered that many lines turned out >to be iambic pentameter. Apologies, Bill. > >Roger > >> >> Chris Stroffolino wrote >> >> > I was not >> > knocking it >> > I was not >> > putting it down >> > WCW >> > was alright >> > but the duino elegies >> > in such >> > a mode >> > are thick and ordinary >> > >> > >> >On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: >> > >> >> The three step line >> >> is not an "avant-garde" technique >> >> but an attempt to regularize >> >> "free verse" >> >> make it almost >> >> routine so that >> >> it might be used for longer >> >> more discursive poems >> >> such as "Of Asphodel, that greeny flower >> >> I come, my sweet, >> >> to sing to you." >> >> which I have read with pleasure >> >> repeatedly >> >> over the past twenty years >> >> or more >> >> >> >> Of course, I am not getting the right cadence here. Wittgenstein >> said >> >> that understanding a musical phrase is analogous to understanding a >> >> sentence, "more than one might think." I love these flashes of >> intuition, >> >> as when he speaks of someone buying several copies of the morning >> paper to >> >> make sure that what is printed there is true. Wittgenstein loved >> Rilke's >> >> poetry and even lent him money once, I believe. >> >> >> >> Jonathan Mayhew >> >> >> > >> >> Then again >> I'm >> Not sure as I always >> Agree >> W/ WCW's claims >> for his work, as against >> The work itself. >> (C.f. an essay by Perloff >> Which >> Brilliantly >> Makes this case, regarding something W. >> C.W. said of >> His poem about the broken >> Glass >> Outside the hospital. >> (The essay is in _William >> Carlos Williams: Man & Poet_)). >> So, >> It seems to me >> While the 3-step line _was_ an attempt >> To regularize >> "Free verse" >> (Used, >> As Jonathan points out >> To great effect in "Asphodel"), >> It's effect, >> Like the short line generally >> >> Is also to materialize the poetic line, >> Working >> Against the discursive flow. Thus, Chris's >> Association of this w/ >> The "avant-garde" >> Is not all wrong. >> >> ==Mark DuCharme >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:18:58 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who believe that Mitchell is really a machine, here's a real machine translation (courtesy of "http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate?") of Herbsttag: ------------- Autumn day Gentleman: it is time of the summers was very large. Put your shadows on the sonnenuhren, and suf the corridors release the hoist. Instruct the last fruits to be full; gieb for them still two more southern days, urge it to the completion and hunt the last sweet one into the heavy wine. Who has now no house, no more builds itself. **time-out** who now alone be, will it for a long time remain, will be awake, read, long letter write and will in the all back and forth jerky move, if the page drive. ---------- I love the "Gentleman:" bit, but where the hell did that "**time-out**" come from? > "Build him one no more"? "Long will so remain"? > Aren't _these_ constructions, vaguely archaic and portentous, much closer > to the language of conventional spirituality? The "real strange thing" > about Rilke seems to me less a matter of his diction (Augenaepfel aside) > than of how his mind and imagination work. I think the "real strange thing" that those constructions present, for me at least, is the impression of reading a foreign language. We have the luxury with English of being able to translate into a very flexible syntax, so that it's possible to produce something closer to the original word order while still being parseable. "Long will so remain" _sounds_ like the kind of contorted syntax that Anglophones recognise as being distinctly German. Perhaps the worst way to translate a poem (as a poem) is to make it sound like comfortable, conversational English. Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:01:40 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Amnesty International Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Amnesty International is collecting signatures for a pledge to support this very important United Nations declaration. Amnesty already has 3 million signatures (real and virtual) world wide, and wants 8 million (which would be 1% of the world's population). The UN Secretary General has already agreed to be present either in person or live by satellite, if he has to be in New York, to receive the pledge as a tangible statement of the people of the world's commitment to an international agenda of human rights The most simple way to add your name to the pledge is to: Send an e-mail to: Put YOUR NAME in the SUBJECT and the following text in the message: "I support the rights and freedoms in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for all people, everywhere." Please forward this message to as many people as you can. from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:51:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: John Tritica's new book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Highly recommended and just released: John Tritica: HOW RAIN RECORDS ITS ALPHABET La Alameda Press 9636 Guadalupe Trail NW Albuquerque, NM 87114 105 pp. $12.00 Not to be missed! Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: new Onyx (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:22:46 -0700 >From: Bill Crandall >Subject: Onyx Online Literary Review > >Hello - > >Another issue of Onyx is online, including pieces by Fanny Howe and >Aaron Shurin, and experiments in hypermedia and in hypertext by Joe >Byron and William Crandall. It's at: > >http://www.chapman.edu/comm/english/onyx/index.html > >We will produce another issue in December. We will be accepting >submissions til about 11/15. We are ready to consider all types of >writing, especially hypertext, prose poems, verse and short-short >fiction. > >Submit to onyx@chapman.edu by email or > >ONYX >English Department >Chapman University >333 North Glassell >Orange, California > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:09:39 -0400 Reply-To: Gwyn McVay Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Babelfish translation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tom, the mysterious "time-out" is an amazing serendipitous find; I used the same webpage to translate "Me and Bobby McGee" into and out of several languages in a row, and after one of the Romance languages, "bobby" lost its proper-noun status and became "police officer McGee." Kind of a twist in the plot. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 06:23:34 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a question. Does anyone on this list have experience teaching a) middle school engish b) outside of the US. I'm sic of livin' here and want to teach--perhaps--in Great Britain. If there's experience out there I'd like to hear from you. Please backchannel (toddbaron@earthlink.net) thanks all ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: WCW's line In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980926171915.007ef4d0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And many more that didn't. This rather misses the point. WCW was not >obsessed with avoiding the iamb at all costs, he was inventing a different >kind of metrics and a different way of conceiving same. The lineation is >never for the sake of a predesigned formula. Try reading each part of the >triad as a metric unit. So, in "The Ivy Crown" (I opened at random) there >are only two triads that could be scanned as iambic. The first reads >but being mortal > can defy our fate. > We may > >This is not iambic hexameter. This is three variable feet. The swing is >completely different > >At 04:56 PM 9/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Try this as an experiment: "sew" a triadic line poem back together and >>scan. I did this some time ago, and discovered that many lines turned out >>to be iambic pentameter. Apologies, Bill. >> Not much to add to this discussion, except to note that the iamb occurs quite naturally in English language speech--that's _why_ it was so popular in the first place. Listen, and you'll hear iambs in the evening news. Not pentameter, of course, but certainly rhythmic. Finding that a triadic line contains iambics is not much more surprising. --Dean ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:43:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maryrose Larkin Subject: Re: Babelfish translation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I too love the Babelfish translation programs....in fact I have been using them to make poems lately.....that is I translate and retranslate sentences, fragments, paragraphs....then edit and retranslate. My current favorite is how confusing the program finds pronouns. I think that the program bases the gender of the pronoun based on the gender of the noun following it. so she plays her piano becomes it games it plan. Anyway, it is my new favorite way to undermine my "voice" Maryrose Larkin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:55:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap In-Reply-To: <360DD9E5.5D93@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > Here's a question. Does anyone on this list have experience teaching > a) middle school engish > b) outside of the US. > > I'm sic of livin' here and want to teach--perhaps--in Great Britain. If > there's experience out there I'd like to hear from you. Please > backchannel > no no pleazzz frontchannel - other interested parties involved thx, rd > (toddbaron@earthlink.net) > > thanks all > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:12:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap In-Reply-To: <360DD9E5.5D93@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want to teach anywhere but Great Britain! If there's an opening out there, I'd like to hear from you. Please backchannel! Alan On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > Here's a question. Does anyone on this list have experience teaching > a) middle school engish > b) outside of the US. > > I'm sic of livin' here and want to teach--perhaps--in Great Britain. If > there's experience out there I'd like to hear from you. Please > backchannel > > (toddbaron@earthlink.net) > > thanks all > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Re: Chapbook/selling/reading In-Reply-To: <35F65D22.761F2BE2@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Peter, Thanks for re-sending those books--I've already managed to give about 30 of them away! Let me please reiterate my gratitude--it's been so nice to have a little book to give to people. Strange, though, to give it to my dad (I don't dare give one to my mother). In any case, I have this reading coming up on October 12th and want to be sure to have enough books there for anyone who may want one. Maybe could you send me 10 or so to sell? I could sell them at my reading and also put some on consignment at the good bookstore here (St. Mark's), and also sell some at Jordan Davis's reading series, where he lets people sell books etc. In other words, maybe send me 15 on consignment? I'll sell them and give you the money as it comes in? I, of course, will prepare covers here, so you'd have to send just books sans dust-jackets. Would this be okay? Hope the rest of the series is going well. I just finally really got a real job copyediting Avon catalogs--strange but pays well. Am for sure planning on purchasing entire series in a month or so. Thanks for doing this--will send Explosive #6 and Juliana's chapbook soon. Best, Katy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:00:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: variations out of desire to meet new friends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Nikuko "has a funny way" of trying to make friends! (says Nikuko!) IRC log started Sat Sep 26 23:26 *** Value of LOG set to ON ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #talk *** Users on #talk: @Nikuko *** #talk 906866787 *** Nikuko has left channel #talk ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #sex *** #sex 906540419 takes hand put over head wetsilkpanties is a guy *** Yeah is now known as Sandra_20 ^*^ shaunna watch him sexy what r u those things ameoba21 r u m/f? ^<^Nikuko^>^ HI EVERYONE! I'M NIKUKO! no warped.....not a virgin.... there so big ^***^ baby-girl (me@208.253.77.162) has joined channel #sex ^<^Nikuko^>^ HI! I WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH YOU! ^^Hmm ^<^Nikuko^>^ I'M NOT A VIRGIN TOO *** PlayMe has been kicked off channel #sex by Kleenex (mIRC colors are lame.) got a hard tip at the end *** SMOOTHGAL has left channel #SEX i'm a virgin ^*^ sexy-princess yup i am a 38c string ^*^ shaunna flashes WW has joined channel #sex ^<^Nikuko^>^ I'M DEFINITELY NOT! I'M A 38D STRING! *** DueSouth has left channel #sex i can tell :)))))))))))) *** ^Macer^ has left channel #sex *** Signoff: Taradiane (Quit: changing servers) *** Signoff: Pleasure (Quit: changing servers) ^<^Nikuko^>^ HELLO HELLO! DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO FUCK! ^*^ Nikuko is out of here, lamers! *** Nikuko has left channel #sex ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #freedom *** Users on #freedom: @Nikuko *** #freedom 906866890 *** Nikuko has left channel #freedom ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #truth *** Users on #truth: @Nikuko *** #truth 906866902 *** Nikuko has left channel #truth ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #philosophy *** Topic for #philosophy: Is evolution deterministic? *** Topic for #philosophy set by ^Blackt^ on Sep 26 11:49:49 *** Users on #philosophy: Nikuko Delsin goodgrief Pomassl blond-aussie-tennis-coach Zodie wwhet JOFF Surfdude Godot22 Daemon JamelaTM-1 VolnarisDu avelo SkyDiver_Down *** #philosophy 906782467 ^<^Nikuko^>^ COULDN'T BE DETERMINISTIC SINCE MUTATIONS CHAOTIC ^<^Nikuko^>^ NOT EVEN A PSEUDO-RANDOM BUT TRUE-RANDOM CONSTITUTING ^<^Nikuko^>^ CONCEPTS OF HANDSHAKING ACROSS NODES ARE CRITICAL HERE ^*^ Nikuko thinks these lamers don't know anything, I'm so brilliant! *** Nikuko has left channel #philosophy ^***^ Nikuko (sondheim@panix3.panix.com) has joined channel #Nikuko *** Users on #Nikuko: @Nikuko *** #sex : mal@table.jps.net (from services.dal.net) *** #Nikuko 906866992 ^<^Nikuko^>^ HI! I'M ALL ALONE IN HERE BUT I KNOW THAT YOU'RE AROUND! ^<^Nikuko^>^ SO COME ON IN AND JOIN ME! WE'LL MAKE A LOT OF SOUND! ^<^Nikuko^>^ HELLO I KNOW YOU'RE LISTENING! I'M NAKED HERE AND HOT! ^<^Nikuko^>^ YOU CAN BET YOUR A-LIFE BABY, I'M BUILT AND NOT A BOT! ^*^ Nikuko finds out it doesn't do any good. ^*^ Nikuko realizes she's burned a lot of bridges. ^*^ Nikuko hears something! ^<^Nikuko^>^ YOU'RE LISTENING! YOU WON'T GET ANY! ^<^Nikuko^>^ YOU WON'T GET ANY! ^<^Nikuko^>^ HEE HEE HEE! ^<^Nikuko^>^ BYE! *** Signoff: Nikuko (Killed (Jennifer (Hey, who said you could use my script? :>))) IRC Log ended *** Sat Sep 26 23:33 ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 00:42:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Epoch Mag Needs Help In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'll second this. Barr is a good editor and Epoch is a good magazine open >to interesting work (heck, they published me twice). > >Hugh Steinberg I remember that it was pretty good when Cecil Giscombe was editing; havent seen it lately. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:35:51 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do. Don't do it. Not in UK. It'll MAKE you sick. It isn't teaching, it's factory farming. L -----Original Message----- From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Date: 27 September 1998 07:23 Subject: |Here's a question. Does anyone on this list have experience teaching |a) middle school engish |b) outside of the US. | |I'm sic of livin' here and want to teach--perhaps--in Great Britain. If |there's experience out there I'd like to hear from you. Please |backchannel | |(toddbaron@earthlink.net) | |thanks all | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Re: stupidity In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello! Strike my last message from the record! Katy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:31:48 +0000 Reply-To: gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: [Fwd: Une saison en enfer] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have confirmation on this? Gaetan Jeaurond wrote: > > > I'm trying to track down a story which appeared > in Le Monde yesterday. > > It concerns a 97-year old bibliophile, Jacques Guerin, > who has decided to put up for sale the manuscript of > Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_. He had it all these > years, keeping it jealously to and for himself, showing > it to no one. The manuscript was believed, up until now, > lost forever. > > gj > > -- > In The Company Of Fine Books > Suite 234, 2183 Ogilvie Road > Gloucester, Ontario K1J 1C8 > Tel.: (613) 742-6295; Fax: (613) 742-8859 --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-a.missouri.edu [128.206.3.17]) by osf1.gmu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA30042 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA22182; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:31:31 -0500 Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA83426 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:31:05 -0500 Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (av112@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA23569 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (av112@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA27567; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809251630.MAA27567@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu Sender: owner-CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu Precedence: bulk From: av112@freenet.carleton.ca (Gaetan Jeaurond) To: crewrt-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Une saison en enfer X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-Status: I'm trying to track down a story which appeared in Le Monde yesterday. It concerns a 97-year old bibliophile, Jacques Guerin, who has decided to put up for sale the manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_. He had it all these years, keeping it jealously to and for himself, showing it to no one. The manuscript was believed, up until now, lost forever. gj -- In The Company Of Fine Books Suite 234, 2183 Ogilvie Road Gloucester, Ontario K1J 1C8 Tel.: (613) 742-6295; Fax: (613) 742-8859 --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:45:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Epoch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Years ago, when I was living in Ithaca, I sent a few poems in to Epoch. I sent them in the mail on a thursday and the rejection arrived in the mail on saturday. I don't think they could have been in Goldwyn Smith Hall for more than twenty minutes. I imagined a grad student in creative writing taking the poems out of the envelope, passing a jaded eye over them, and stuffing them into my SASE. Nothing like swift and painless rejection! I'll try again, though. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:57:37 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence Upton. wrote: > > I do. > Don't do it. Not in UK. > It'll MAKE you sick. > It isn't teaching, it's factory farming. > > L > > How so? (middle school? ) Tb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: A.BACUS 1999 - pt. 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reading the digest form of Poetics, I realized that I left out the ordering address for A.BACUS. It is: Potes & Poets Press Inc 181 Edgemont Avenue Elmwood CT 06110-1005 USA Please note that the chapbooks should be ordered through Small Press Distribution. An expanded announcement regarding those will be on the list in a few days. Keep eyes peeled. I will be reading new manuscripts for the chapbooks in January. Send then. Peter Ganick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 13:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: griffinbaker@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: WCW swings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've tried this (and heard it before): > Try reading each part of the > triad as a metric unit. So, in "The Ivy Crown" (I opened at random) there > are only two triads that could be scanned as iambic. The first reads > but being mortal > can defy our fate. > We may > > This is not iambic hexameter. This is three variable feet. The swing is > completely different Does your "metric unit" mean more than something that takes up a different measured space on the page? What's the variation, then, that makes this line "variable" or makes it swing completely differently from whatever swing iambic pentameter has (and i.p. swings in more ways than one)? Williams' first two part-lines are simply i.p. with a caesura conventionally halfway through the line, where W first breaks the line: the only variation here is to mark the caesura with indentation. The line sounds then like much conventional metric verse: the foot boundaries don't coincide with word boundaries in the first half, then do coincide to stabilize the rhythm in the final two feet; Williams wants the third part-line seen as part of the triad, but how does it swing differently from the start of a new line? How does this-- but being mortal can defy our fate. We may --swing differently from this: made glorious summer by this son of York; And all Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:25:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: deads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - deads deads MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN jennifer reach inside jennifer crooked head jennifer crooked head, wood splinter, fall off nikuko head nikuko head on crooked, wood broken, neck broken, dangling nikuko head dangling nikuko head gnaw jennifer, dangling eye cut into four piece four piece eye severed on left right up down nikuko while julu while julu, stuffed with dirty dirt, split, open rib, rib on inside rib on inside rib on outside, paste on alan crack and hole crack alan crack and hole crack, jennifer reach inside, splay dry out alan hole dry out alan hole, nikuko say, gnaw alan hole, gash rib, muscle, nerve muscle, nerve, flay skin, dry out, crack, eye cracked, severed, while julu reach inside alan head, fall, break, cut, sever, split, open, split, open, paste, crack, reach, dry, gnaw, gash, flay, dry MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN jennifer poor dead broken thing (piss stone of grave) julu, stuffed with dirty dirt (spit stone of grave) nikuko poor gnawed broken thing (vomit stone of grave) alan poor dead broken buried gnawed (shit stone of grave) MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN pissy jennifer spitty julu vomitty nikuko shitty alan MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:02:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit YES! << Perhaps the worst way to translate a poem (as a poem) is to make it sound like comfortable, conversational English. Tom Beard. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:10:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit No argument here. There can't be a definitive translation meeting all objectives, and religious/spiritual discourse is certainly a legitimate one. << he is interested in poetry not as a cultural artifact, but as a religious discourse? These would seem to be within his rights as an author. Andrew Rathmann, >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:14:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Kamau Braithwaite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody have any bio info on Kamau Braithwaite and perhaps a blurb on his work I could borrow for a grant proposal due in the morning? I need the info asap, backchannel please. Thanks, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:24:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: self-etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maria, I just discovered Adrian Castro's "Cantos to Blood & Honey," and am excited to see poetry that deals with the Yoruba influence on Caribbean history/religion/spirituality/culture, especially the orishas and the bata (the sacred drumming). He is the first poet I've seen to include so much about the Yoruba/Santeria religion & music in his work. Intriguing. In a message dated 9/24/98 11:18:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, damon001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU writes: << my essay "Avantgarde or Borderguard: (Latino) Identity in Poetry" just came out in American Literary History Fall 1998. Glad to be able to put in a plug for vernacular/alternative poetry in that venue. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:25:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: mitchell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Most articulate, and I agree. << You can use the Vedas, the I Ching, the Gospels, etc., any way you want. As my sons say, it is a free country. But I use these texts as a window into the minds that produced them. I don't want to be consoled or uplifted by them. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:25:04 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Kamau Braithwaite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Kelleher wrote: > > Does anybody have any bio info on Kamau Braithwaite and perhaps a blurb > on his work I could borrow for a grant proposal due in the morning? I > need the info asap, backchannel please. > > Thanks, > > Mike Mike, did you try http://www.nytimes.com/partners/nyu1/portraits6.html ? Also, from Wisconsin Studies in Autobiography, My Lord, What a Morning: An Autobiography by Marian Anderson, with a new introduction by Nellie Y. McKay (1993) Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:30:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: teaching poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize them? Harvard students, as you might imagine, are extraordinarily grade conscious & really quite conservative & it's upsetting to them that a TF would have reservations about the assumptions that underlie a course (for one thing, they implicitly trust brand names -- Harvard & Vendler are 2 -- and for another -- most importantly -- it makes it much more difficult for them to predict how I'll grade their papers). In the past I think I've only confused & antagonised my classes. An added complication of course is that the poetry scene in Boston is ferociously mainstream. Which is all to say that I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had more success with this sort of thing than I've had. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:45:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <4ecc39bf.360ef4d0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've had interns who were undergrads at Harvard (admittedly, on a couple) complain of how conservative the thinking is about poetry there, how mainstream it is, too. Seems there should be some way of getting such people together and Jacques could teach them. I have had some luck with students schooled that way, though, in turning the teaching toward various approaches in terms of thinking about what poems are, how they are made, and what the poet might be up to inside them -- in a way, attempting to get outside the canon altogether and not worry much at all about who the poets are and where they come from and who has decided they are worth teaching, rather paying quite close, physical attention to the words -- another thing might be to attend to the poets Vendler and Harvard do approve, but who can't really be domesticated -- like H.D. (who might lead into Duncan quite easily), Stevens, Ashbery, etc. -- take the canon and change the way it is read. But then, not knowing Vendler's Intro to Poetry course, I don't know what you're expected to do -- do you start with Homer, or earlier, or with Beowulf or Chaucer? charles At 10:30 PM 9/27/98 EDT, you wrote: >On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen >Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do >I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's >syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize them? Harvard >students, as you might imagine, are extraordinarily grade conscious & really >quite conservative & it's upsetting to them that a TF would have reservations >about the assumptions that underlie a course (for one thing, they implicitly >trust brand names -- Harvard & Vendler are 2 -- and for another -- most >importantly -- it makes it much more difficult for them to predict how I'll >grade their papers). In the past I think I've only confused & antagonised my >classes. An added complication of course is that the poetry scene in Boston >is ferociously mainstream. > >Which is all to say that I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had >more success with this sort of thing than I've had. > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:45:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I taught a class that was quite mainstream, and I frequently made the point that there were poets with other points of view, with alternate agendas, who might be of interest to the class. Given any reasonable opportunity, I mentioned names & titles of anthologies & literary journal titles. I also was upfront in letting the students know that this was the poetry I was actually invested in/interested in personally, but I didn't really go into the work in class, because that wasn't what the class was about. Some of the students pursued my leads, some didn't. I always made the point that there were other opinions/poetics outside of the ones we were learning in class, and gave a brief description. Often enough we teach poets in relation to each other, and this presents the opportunity to mention that there are alternatives even to the alternatives you are officially presenting--and I think this gives the student a broader view of poetry/poetics. But you have to be rather glancing in your asides--otherwise it does seem you're taking ths class in another direction. Jacques Debrot wrote: > On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen > Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do > I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's > syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize them? Harvard > students, as you might imagine, are extraordinarily grade conscious & really > quite conservative & it's upsetting to them that a TF would have reservations > about the assumptions that underlie a course (for one thing, they implicitly > trust brand names -- Harvard & Vendler are 2 -- and for another -- most > importantly -- it makes it much more difficult for them to predict how I'll > grade their papers). In the past I think I've only confused & antagonised my > classes. An added complication of course is that the poetry scene in Boston > is ferociously mainstream. > > Which is all to say that I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had > more success with this sort of thing than I've had. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:03:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: teaching poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On teaching poetry at Harvard: you might require the students to do a presentation toward the end of the course on poets who are not on the syllabus. Give them a list of poets they should pursue on their own and talk about. That list can be comprised of non-mainstream poets. Then the students will themselves discover the cognitive dissonances involved and might talk them through without Jacques's pushing them at all (except quietly, by way of the list). Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 02:38:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Agent Sunshine, a.k.a. Eric Gleason" Subject: st. marks experiment book. In-Reply-To: <01J2BIZ5XMXE8X332E@cnsvax.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does anyone know of such a book? i have found one edited by anne waldman titled "out of this world:", but i'm still waiting for that one to come through the interlibrary loan. thanks, eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 03:27:42 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the poetries that fall outside of Vendler? I'm not even sure I'd be able to name them all, let alone make students aware of them in a significant way. . . If the problem is alienation though. . . or the thought that you're teaching students about "conventions" only to pull the rug out from under them, I suspect that the question really has very little to do with what is or is not in the Vendler. After all. . .if students have been endoctrinated into literature, it's usually into realistic prose, not poetry. I know what you mean by alienating however--but I would sugest that it has as much to do with the anthology model itself, not whether the poets names are familiar. . .After all, most of the poets in the Vendler anthology wouldn't get along with each other at a party. They're already undermining each others conventions. . .I'm not saying they're not still representative of some British/American ideo-BORG. I'm just saying that the cannonical tradition itself is already disorienting for students. . . and the more you try to cover. . .the more disorienting it gets. I'm saying this in part because I tried to teach against an anthology a couple of years ago. . . staggering so called traditional poetry with so called untraditional poetry (though we might disagree with my classifications). It sorely tested any notion that I may have had that students apprehend poetry better through "difference" than continuity. . . The entire class probably ended up rejected poetry entirely and went on to get M.B.A.s (and I've avoided teaching introductory poetry classes since then as well) By the same token, though: if the problem is that students have trouble getting a grip on the fast rush of changing styles. . .than one should naturally feel compelled to add one or two (chap)books to the syllabus. Naturally, there's also no reason why these books can't be a half-lobster shy of a lampost. From Basho to Kelly. Doesn't help with the "all" question though. . . -- Ted (The New Guy) Fristrom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:10:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: stupidity In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello! Strike my last message from the record! > >Katy Wait! Wait! I can't find it! George George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 03:04:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: teaching poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not to sound totally cynical, but when working with grade obsessed students, there are two magic words: extra credit. Used properly, they'll jump through all sorts of hoops. Here's a less cynical approach: let the students pick. That is, break them up into small groups, assign each group a problem (that is, a critical concern that leads away from Vendler and towards other poetries) related to your reading list, meet with them during your office hours, give them sources, suggestions, outside readings, etc. Each group then makes a presentation to the class. To keep the grade obsessed on your side, make sure there are points attached for them to receive credit (grades) for their work. Meeting with small groups separately from the class is crucial for this to work: what an entire class will obstinately refuse, complaining and kvetching, small groups will often respond enthusiastically. Hope this helps. Hugh Steinberg Jacques Debrot writes: >On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen >Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do >I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's >syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize them? Harvard >students, as you might imagine, are extraordinarily grade conscious & really >quite conservative & it's upsetting to them that a TF would have reservations >about the assumptions that underlie a course (for one thing, they implicitly >trust brand names -- Harvard & Vendler are 2 -- and for another -- most >importantly -- it makes it much more difficult for them to predict how I'll >grade their papers). In the past I think I've only confused & antagonised my >classes. An added complication of course is that the poetry scene in Boston >is ferociously mainstream. > >Which is all to say that I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had >more success with this sort of thing than I've had. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <4ecc39bf.360ef4d0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Jacques Debrot wrote: > On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen > Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do > I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's > syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize them? You might try pointing them toward some "brand name" anthologists who incorporate both mainstream and non-mainstream poetry. I'm thinking specifically of Kenneth Koch's _Making Your Own Days_, in which he has Herrick and Herbert ext to Schuyler next to Ginsberg next to Bishop next to O'Hara next to Auden next to Cendrars to Marianne Moore to Pound to D.H. Lawrence to WCW's "Della Primavera Trasportata al Morale" -- which is a start. There's also Rothenberg's very fun _Revolution of the Word_ (1974?), in which he collects some of the weirder stuff of more well-knowns. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:46:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: American Letters & Commentary #10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing the tenth anniversary issue of American Letters & Commentary, one of the best and brightest of the (relatively) new magazines. Editors Jeanne Marie Beaumont and Anna Rabinowitz read across schools and boundaries to produce an unpredictable, exciting magazine in which cross-pollination is the norm rather than the exception. Full information is available at their website: http://www.amletters.org/ but for those without web access, $12 will buy a 2-year subscription to this annual, beginning with #10; $10 a copy of the huge and gorgeous Tenth Anniversary issue by itself (U.S. rates--please query for rates outside the United States). This issue contains more than 35 pages of reviews: Cole Swensen on Jeff Clark and Paul Hoover, Catherine Daly on Connie Deanovich, Scott Ferguson on Tim Dlugos, Chris Stroffolino on Amy Gerstler, Tod Thilleman on Charles Borkhuis, Claudia Keelan on Ann Lauterbach, Jocelyn Emerson on Sheila E. Murphy, Robert Mueller on Susan Wheeler, Lydia Davis on Diane Williams, Lucinda Ebersole on C.D. Wright, Charles Borkhuis on John Yau, etc. etc. Cover design by Jeff Clark. Also new work from: Kostas Anagnopoulos, Bruce Andrews, Cynthia Atkins, Walter Bargen, Geri Lynn Baumblatt, Charles Bernstein, Jeffrey M. Bockman, Charles Borkhuis, Eloise Bruce, Jamie Callan, Patricia Carlin, Kelly Cherry, Gillian Conoley, Catherine Daly, Eric Darton, Jon Davis, Lydia Davis, Connie Deanovich, Ray Di Palma, Stephen Dixon, Mark DuCharme, Jocelyn Emerson, Elaine Equi, Clayton Eshleman, Jeffrey Essmann, Graham Foust, Ian Ganassi, Forrest Gander, Karen Garthe, Diane Glancy, Michele Glazer, Albert Goldbarth, Robert Gregory, Barbara Guest, Gayle Elen Harvey, Lois Hirshkowitz, Susan Holahan, Virginia Hooper, Mark Irwin, Garrett Kalleberg, Claudia Keelan, Mickie Kennedy, Edward Kleinschmidt, Phyllis Koestenbaum, Richard Kostelanetz, Carolyn Koo, Gerry La Femina, John Latta, Ann Lauterbach, David Lehman, Joel Lewis, Lesle Lewis, Thomas Lisk, Rachel Loden, Florence Cassen Mayers, Jacqueline Michaud, Margaret Miles, Stephen Mounkhall, Laura Mullen, Sheila E. Murphy, Jandy Nelson, John Noto, Simon Perchik, Allan Peterson, Bin Ramke, Heather Ramsdell, Stephen Ratcliffe, Donald Revell, Brad Richard, Leonard Schwartz, Spencer Selby, Chris Semansky, Matthew Sharpe, Reginald Shepherd, Susan Sonde, Stephanie Strickland, Chris Stroffolino, Cole Swensen, David Swerdlow, H.T., Peter Temes, Lee Teverow, Ruth Tobias, David Trinidad, Lee Upton, Rosanne Wasserman, Susan Wheeler, Diane Williams, C.D. Wright, and Brian Young. Make checks payable to: American Letters & Commentary, Inc. 850 Park Avenue, Suite 5B New York, NY 10021 Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Mitchell, Rilke etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, since no one else has responded to Andrew Rathmann's defense of Mitchell, perhaps I should. I'm not persuaded at all by AR's defense. Is the rhyme scheme of Mitchell's version closer to Rilke's than MacIntyre's? No. As a matter of fact Rilke is rather fond of rhyming couplets not only in this poem but throughout 'Das Buch der Bilder' [and througout his gesammelte Werke]. =46urthermore M's "plain style" is not more accurate than MacIntyre's or Herder Norton's: "will never have one" does not translate "baut sich keines mehr"; it interprets it. Vaguely. Nor is "will sit, read, write long letters through the evening" an accurate translation of Rilke's "wird wachen, lesen, lange Briefe schreiben." AR concludes: >So what exactly is the complaint against Mitchell? That his books are >popular? That he is interested in poetry not as a cultural artifact, but >as a religious discourse? These would seem to be within his rights as an >author. The complaint is this. Mitchell is not an author. He is a translator. Insofar as he is a translator he has no rights. He is or should be the self-effacing slave of his text. It seems to me that instead Mitchell is a slave of a "religious" discourse with high sales figures. Are you saying that he should be more faithful to that discourse than to his texts? Pierre Joris somewhere cites what H=F6lderlin did to German in order to transmit Pindar's Greek. The miracle is that the German has taken on some of the of dazzling brilliance of Pindar's Greek. In Mitchell's hands, it is the other way around: the source language is turned into a variation of the target language. Do you want a German Rilke in Paris circa 1902 or an American one in Barnes and Noble circa 1990-something? I'd prefer a translation that makes 90's English walk & talk more like Rilke's German. Two things result: Germanless English readers get a better sense of who Rilke actually was, and English becomes a little richer. I really don't think that I'm being unfair to Mitchell. GT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:26:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Teaching in UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure this applies to the list, but maybe; it concerns how I financed my habit (writing) I taught 11-18 for a number of years. English, History, Theatre and then increasingly Computing. Wasnt called IT then and the content insured that few could cope. That helped build character. The students were great. They were quite feisty - poor area, though not all were poor; mostly the children or grand children of immigrants and subject to heavy racism particularly from the police. Some were inclined to violence; but the majority were okay. Because there was selection just across a nearby administrative boundary, though we were called a comprehensive school but in fact it was a sink. There was a barmy analysis of human ability which banded students into top 25% middle 50% and bottom 25%. Ours were drawn from the bototm of the middle and the bottom. Many didn't fit the classification, but it wasn't completely wrong. They needed a special curriculum and they didn't get it. If you were straight with them and got on with the job of teaching them they were generally fine. The problem was the management who were potty to the point of malignancy. No backing. Constant pointless change. Interference. The school declined rapidly and eventually closed. Obviously that isnt the case with all schools or even many, but the difficulties we had are shared by pretty well all of the others to a lesser degree. Next school much the same. I got out of that and went to Further Education i.e. some post 16 many post 18 below degree level usually everything was fine for a couple of years and then the government privatised it FE had been a haven for all sorts of wild life - people like me who, in my analysis, wanted a way of earning some money that didn't make us feel immoral, people - I think like me - who had come to the conclusion that teaching was one of the best things a person can do; and various wasters who weren't good for much and sheltered under the stones of FE. After privatisation that third category became the management of the colleges. Massive drop in resources, pressure to fake grades, in all the varieties of activity that can breed; bullying; time wasting; lowering of standards... I got out. Meanwhile my secondary school friends (11-18) are reporting impossible targets, bullying, lack of resources and it makes it that much more difficult to stay alive to make poetry It isn't teaching now but training parrots and preparing bogus portfolios L -----Original Message----- From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Date: 27 September 1998 21:57 Subject: Re: |Lawrence Upton. wrote: |> |> I do. |> Don't do it. Not in UK. |> It'll MAKE you sick. |> It isn't teaching, it's factory farming. |> |> L |> |> |How so? (middle school? ) | |Tb | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: the art of enjambement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From Sedgwick's _Tendencies_, an autoexegesis of one of her own poems: "The more than exhibitionsim, the blissful new vocational pride of this poem (much though I _have_, in this reproduction of it, hurried past); the wracking and politically expsensive divorce of the tightly zoned and abjected female body from the enfranchised female voice; the many filaments with which the poem binds its personnel to their multiple and changing stations in the culture of the "examination"; the equivocal address of this letter by which the demarcation of private from public is erotically exploited even as it is generically defied or transformed; the po-faced relish of mimicry that confuses the power relations of observer and observed; the half occluded agressiveness with which the autoerotic enactment of the poem both provokes and deprecates the fury of the impinged upon reader, and the fatuous insistence with which it solicits and pretends to ignore the desire that is the unnamed engine of the fury--all are condensed in the "thud / of longing" with which the contracted, bodily siting of the drama of enjambment is displaced back outward onto the sheepish hungry gaze from the wedged-open door." dichten = condensare. I wish my line breaks could express so much. But why write bad poetry if you can write bad prose? I'd like to see Stephen Mitchell translate this or Helen Vendler explicate it. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:54:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. In-Reply-To: from "Agent Sunshine, a.k.a. Eric Gleason" at Sep 28, 98 02:38:24 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not aware of this book, but if it turns up, please let me know! RR > i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. > marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave > descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the > book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does > anyone know of such a book? > > i have found one edited by anne waldman titled "out of this world:", but > i'm still waiting for that one to come through the interlibrary loan. > > thanks, > eryque > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:10:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the greatest successes I've had as far as an individual text goes is teaching _Dictee_ by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha. Ways into this from VendlerLand? Start charting out the relationship of poetry/poetics/poets to the visual arts. New York School--obvious--canonical choices there. Then provide a contemporary example such as Cha who was also a filmmaker and visual artist. There's also a lot that can be done in terms of examining what a "personal narrative" what encompass--always a favorite of self-obsessed undergrads, Harvard or otherwise. My advice: Don't think in terms oppositions (good/bad, canonical/noncanonical) but instead provide examples around the map that illustrate different ways of thinking and composing. And just think, you have the opportunity to teach students how to read poetry. Most college English majors don't know how to read the stuff, but a great teacher can open that door. Have fun! Kathy Lou Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:19:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Welcome to Poetics List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rev. 6-1-98 (This message is sent out to all new and renewing subscribers and it is sent out to the list at the beginning of every month) ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo Postal Address: 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY, Buffalo, NY 14260 ___________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ___________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. 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Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. In-Reply-To: <199809281554.IAA19078@fraser.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Check with Teachers and Writers in NY. They have a wealth of interesting writing experiment books-- new ones all the time. Maxine Chernoff On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Roger Farr wrote: > I'm not aware of this book, but if it turns up, please let me know! > > RR > > > > i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. > > marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave > > descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the > > book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does > > anyone know of such a book? > > > > i have found one edited by anne waldman titled "out of this world:", but > > i'm still waiting for that one to come through the interlibrary loan. > > > > thanks, > > eryque > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:34:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <360FB50A.CD4@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Believe it or not, innovative practice can be included side-by-side with the more traditional syllabus as long as you're able to stretch definitions. Maybe the traditional syllabus says, for example, autobiography or uses of the personal. Maybe "Daddy" by Plath is there. Why not juxtapose it with sections of "My Life" by Hejinian? Students then can see the range of what personal can mean. Maxine Chernoff On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > One of the greatest successes I've had as far as an individual text goes > is teaching _Dictee_ by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha. Ways into this from > VendlerLand? Start charting out the relationship of poetry/poetics/poets > to the visual arts. New York School--obvious--canonical choices there. > Then provide a contemporary example such as Cha who was also a filmmaker > and visual artist. There's also a lot that can be done in terms of > examining what a "personal narrative" what encompass--always a favorite > of self-obsessed undergrads, Harvard or otherwise. > > My advice: Don't think in terms oppositions (good/bad, > canonical/noncanonical) but instead provide examples around the map that > illustrate different ways of thinking and composing. And just think, you > have the opportunity to teach students how to read poetry. Most college > English majors don't know how to read the stuff, but a great teacher can > open that door. Have fun! > > Kathy Lou Schultz > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:44:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: FWD help to find data on concrete poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46WD message >To: syndicate >Subject: Syndicate: Please help me find the author of one poem >Sender: owner-syndicate@aec.at >Precedence: bulk > >Dear Syndicalist > > >Please help me find the data of one poem. Poem is >visual/concrete. > >It was made probably some 20-25 years ago. >It's author is probably from Poland, but I not sure about >this, but I'm sure that >author is from one of the ex-communist countries. > >Poem is something like that (last time I so it was 10 years >ago - and I can't remember any more precise data): > >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaa g aaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > >I think that title was: individual > > > >Yesterday I spent almost whole day in the libraries but >didn't find anything. > >I would really appreciate any data about it (author, in >which book or anthology was published, e-mail of the author, >title, ... anything). > >If you have any data please e-mail it to me: >Jaka Zeleznikar >mailto:jaka.zeleznikar@kiss.uni-lj.si > >Thank you. > >Best regards >Jaka > > >-- >----------------------------------------------- >Jaka Zeleznikar >http://www.kiss.uni-lj.si/~k4ff0047 > >interactive poetry >INTERAKTIVALIJA/INTERACTIVALIA >http://www.kiss.uni-lj.si/~k4ff0047/int/int.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: FWD help to find data on concrete poem In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maybe Czech? Ladislav Novak has some along those lines, one called individualista (in Solt, Concrete Poetry: A World view, 139) Or Josef Hirsal and Bohumila Grogerova, Czechs, same, 144-5? Evidently the Novak poems come from a book called Pocta Jacksonu Pollockovi, 1966. Now that's cool! good luck with the search, Sylvester Pollet At 6:44 PM +0000 9/28/98, Alaric Sumner wrote: >FWD message > >>To: syndicate >>Subject: Syndicate: Please help me find the author of one poem >>Sender: owner-syndicate@aec.at >>Precedence: bulk >> >>Dear Syndicalist >> >> >>Please help me find the data of one poem. Poem is >>visual/concrete. >> >>It was made probably some 20-25 years ago. >>It's author is probably from Poland, but I not sure about >>this, but I'm sure that >>author is from one of the ex-communist countries. >> >>Poem is something like that (last time I so it was 10 years >>ago - and I can't remember any more precise data): >> >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaa g aaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa >> >>I think that title was: individual >> >> >> >>Yesterday I spent almost whole day in the libraries but >>didn't find anything. >> >>I would really appreciate any data about it (author, in >>which book or anthology was published, e-mail of the author, >>title, ... anything). >> >>If you have any data please e-mail it to me: >>Jaka Zeleznikar >>mailto:jaka.zeleznikar@kiss.uni-lj.si >> >>Thank you. >> >>Best regards >>Jaka >> >> >>-- >>----------------------------------------------- >>Jaka Zeleznikar >>http://www.kiss.uni-lj.si/~k4ff0047 >> >>interactive poetry >>INTERAKTIVALIJA/INTERACTIVALIA >>http://www.kiss.uni-lj.si/~k4ff0047/int/int.htm >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:28:33 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: teaching poetry Or, as an assignment/project, give the students a list of alternative anthologies, and ask them to write about the different assumptions that govern Vendler vs. the other anthology. Or, have them write about the different standards for "good" poetry in the two anthologies. I've had pretty good luck in contemporary poetry classes with having the students read two different anthologies. Sometimes, they end up doing a final project which involves selecting and introducing an anthology of their own making. You might also create other assignments that take them to perspectives outside Vendler: have them go to the Electronic Poetry Center and browse various magazines and author sites. They might even read Hejinian, Bernstein, Creeley, S. Howe--and they could still retain brand loyalty (Harvard), but discover different possible Harvards? Or, they might listen to Cage's Norton Lectures (at Harvard) and ask what is the relationship of his poetics to Vendler's? I suspect that some of the antagonism and confusion you've experienced in prior classes will be inevitable if and as you challenge what Vendler has created as the "best" of poetry. Perhaps the place to begin is with the process of judgment? Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: [Fwd: Une saison en enfer] Comments: To: Gwyn McVay In-Reply-To: <360E302E.8E928B59@osf1.gmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-ID: yeap, it's true, Gwyn, the Rimbaud ms. supposedly does exist & is going under the hammer. read it in LIBEWRATION a couple days ago. Pierre On Sun, 27 Sep 1998, Gwyn McVay wrote: > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 12:31:48 +0000 > From: Gwyn McVay > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: [Fwd: Une saison en enfer] > > Anyone have confirmation on this? > > Gaetan Jeaurond wrote: > > > > > > I'm trying to track down a story which appeared > > in Le Monde yesterday. > > > > It concerns a 97-year old bibliophile, Jacques Guerin, > > who has decided to put up for sale the manuscript of > > Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_. He had it all these > > years, keeping it jealously to and for himself, showing > > it to no one. The manuscript was believed, up until now, > > lost forever. > > > > gj > > > > -- > > In The Company Of Fine Books > > Suite 234, 2183 Ogilvie Road > > Gloucester, Ontario K1J 1C8 > > Tel.: (613) 742-6295; Fax: (613) 742-8859 ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poetic knowledge...is the knowledge of finitude, Dept. of English | of words and things that happen once and SUNY Albany | once only, measurable but not repeatable, the Albany NY 12222 | intuitions of _nonstatistical_ probabilities tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | that are _creative_, not merely re-creative email: | (or recreational)." -- Don Byrd joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: Content-Description: Received: from sp2n17.missouri.edu (sp2n17-a.missouri.edu [128.206.3.17]) by osf1.gmu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA30042 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA22182; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:31:31 -0500 Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by sp2n17.missouri.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA83426 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:31:05 -0500 Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (av112@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA23569 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (av112@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA27567; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809251630.MAA27567@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu Sender: owner-CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu Precedence: bulk From: av112@freenet.carleton.ca (Gaetan Jeaurond) To: crewrt-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Une saison en enfer X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-Status: I'm trying to track down a story which appeared in Le Monde yesterday. It concerns a 97-year old bibliophile, Jacques Guerin, who has decided to put up for sale the manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_. He had it all these years, keeping it jealously to and for himself, showing it to no one. The manuscript was believed, up until now, lost forever. gj -- In The Company Of Fine Books Suite 234, 2183 Ogilvie Road Gloucester, Ontario K1J 1C8 Tel.: (613) 742-6295; Fax: (613) 742-8859 --------------CF7E2585F108BBDD045C8A3A-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg (1928-1991) ISBN 0-9662346-1-8 Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 97-80957 Translated from the French by John and Doreen Weightman This is the one and only novel by the 20th century provocateur of French pop music and film - the legendary Serge Gainsbourg . This prototype lusty punk tore into the threads of French society with his numerous films, music projects, and outlandish persona. He made recordings with Brigitte Bardot, Jane Birkin and a scandalous recording of "Lemon Incest" with his own daughter Charlotte. If that wasn't bad enough, he told Whitney Houston live on French TV that he would love 'to fuck' her. Evguenie Sokolov is a novel about an artist who uses his intestinal gases as the medium for his scandalous artwork. What once was a huge smelly and noisy problem in his social and sex life becomes a tool for success in the early eighties art world. Please note that there is also a song by Gainsbourg called Evguenie Sokolov of farting noises over a reggae track. Some quotes about Gainsbourg and the novel: "Gainsbourg is both the best and the worst, yin and yang, white and black. This Jewish little Prince from Russia whose dreams were probably fueled by Andersen, Perrault and Grimm, became, when confronted by the tragic reality of life, a moving or repugnant Quasimodo, depending on his and your state of mind. Hidden deep within this fragile, shy and aggressive man lies the soul of a poet craving tenderness, truth and integrity." Brigitte Bardot "Serge Gainsbourg is one of the world's great eccentrics. His kinky obsessions, smothering fashion with tastelessness have catapulted him into super stardom in France. This is his only novel and you have never read anything like it Evgueine Sokolov will make you squirm. It will make you laugh. It also may very well make you sick. Gainsbourg's vision is his own: authentic and convulsive. But don't forget to hold your nose." John Zorn Gainsbourg takes one childish, cheap and tasteless one-joke idea and manages to keep it entertaining enough to last for a whole book. he has an envious command of adjectives and adverbs." Mark Webber, Pulp For those who are interested, this book can be special ordered thru Amazon and Barnes & Noble website as well as thru your local independent bookstore. Thanks, ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:02:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: teaching poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" give them some URLs for Perloff essays, she's an antidote billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:22:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Levistky--O'Connor In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Went to a reading yesterday in Brooklyn, hosted by Prageeta Sharma, of the two aforementioned writers---and found both of them worth listening to, but in lieu of a reading report (I'm one of those people who usually needs to "see it on the page" first), I wanted to bring up a point concerning DIDACTICISM in poetry that was raised by Kyle Connor (Oh, shit, scratch---the "O'connor" from the title line).... He read these poems that he (defensively?) called "didactic" and people in the audience (well, some) were "rolling their eyes" in smug(?) disapproval as he read them, even with his disclaimer. Now, I wonder WHY is DIDACTICISM a TABOO in much "avant-garde?" I don't think it's just Kyle's particular poems that was being reacted to, though perhaps the dry declamatory mode in which he read them did have something to do with the eye-rolling? But even if he had read them (performed them) differently, maybe there still would have been much of the same dismissal. It's a question Im curious about, and maybe the emphasis on "poetry readings" (particularly on "coterie poetry readings" in which most of the audience is going to be considered the "converted" (or the "choir") one "preaches" to) over poetry on the page has something to do with the taboo. I mean that reading the work at home--in "solitude"--it may not come off as negatively didactic as it would in the "levelling" crowd. Nor do I want to say that Connor should simply go to the Nuyorican or other slam-venues where didacticism is more appreciated, because even there I find style eclipses substance. Well, curious what anybody might think of these and related issues..... more later, chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:31:32 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: not for general consumption Content-Type: text/plain sorry this isn't so poetics-relevant, just a note for Chris Stroffolino (I believe he is out there somewhere)... just heard that you contributed some keys to d.berman's latest effort, just wondering if you could back channel a note on how it went and when we dan expect to hear it out here in the world semi-related, any idea when that open city book of his is to appear (has it already?) j.perez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:38:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Levistky--Connor & didacticism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I can't speak for the (rest of the) 'avant-garde', but I'm wary of didacticism in poetry for a number of reasons. - Primarily, it's because didacticism implies to me that the author has it all worked out, and that he or she is going to tell us how to think. It leaves no room for dialogue or ambiguity. - Wouldn't a didactic poem require a unified voice and a pre-determined meaning? This is unlikely to appeal to langpos. - While I can see that didacticism has its place, I think that it belongs in textbooks and editorials. Technical & rhetorical prose tries to edge language towards precision and logic, which is not a bad thing in itself. But poetry seems a better medium for doubt, internal debate, contradiction, openness, ambivalence, elusiveness and just plain nuttiness. Which is not to say, of course, that poems can't cover the ground normally covered by essays or manifestos. I just prefer it when the poem is itself a process of discovery and argument, not the end result. Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:50:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you, everyone who got back to me, for your terrific sugestions; can't wait to put them to use. j ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "s. kaipa" Subject: Re: Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Out of curiosity (and other things)-- When did Serge write this book? Sounds utterly fascinating. Summi On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Tosh wrote: > Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg (1928-1991) > ISBN 0-9662346-1-8 Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 97-80957 > Translated from the French by John and Doreen Weightman > > This is the one and only novel by the 20th century provocateur of > French pop music and film - the legendary Serge Gainsbourg . This > prototype lusty punk tore into the threads of French society with his > numerous films, music projects, and outlandish persona. He made > recordings with Brigitte Bardot, Jane Birkin and a scandalous recording of > "Lemon Incest" with his own daughter Charlotte. If that wasn't bad > enough, he told Whitney Houston live on French TV that he would love 'to > fuck' her. > > Evguenie Sokolov is a novel about an artist who uses his > intestinal gases as the medium for his scandalous artwork. What once was a > huge smelly and noisy problem in his social and sex life becomes a tool for > success in the early eighties art world. Please note that there is also a > song by Gainsbourg called Evguenie Sokolov of farting noises over a reggae > track. > > Some quotes about Gainsbourg and the novel: > > > > "Gainsbourg is both the best and the worst, yin and yang, white and black. > This Jewish little Prince from Russia whose dreams were probably fueled by > Andersen, Perrault and Grimm, became, when confronted by the tragic reality > of life, a moving or repugnant Quasimodo, depending on his and your state > of mind. Hidden deep within this fragile, shy and aggressive man lies the > soul of a poet craving tenderness, truth and integrity." Brigitte Bardot > > "Serge Gainsbourg is one of the world's great eccentrics. His kinky > obsessions, smothering fashion with tastelessness have catapulted him into > super stardom in France. > > This is his only novel and you have never read anything like it Evgueine > Sokolov will make you squirm. It will make you laugh. It also may very > well make you sick. Gainsbourg's vision is his own: authentic and > convulsive. But don't forget to hold your nose." John Zorn > > Gainsbourg takes one childish, cheap and tasteless one-joke idea and > manages to keep it entertaining enough to last for a whole book. he has an > envious command of adjectives and adverbs." Mark Webber, Pulp > > For those who are interested, this book can be special ordered thru Amazon > and Barnes & Noble website as well as thru your local independent > bookstore. > > Thanks, > > ----------------- > Tosh Berman > TamTam Books > ---------------- > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:03:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Out of curiosity (and other things)-- > >When did Serge write this book? Sounds utterly fascinating. > >Summi > > >Gainsbourg wrote the novel in the early 80's. It sort of makes fun of the >art world ... as well as everything & everyone else. In my opinion he was >a great artist. totally over looked in the U.S. I should mention that >Russell Mael of Sparks wrote the afterword and bart plantenga wrote the >introduction. Both of them I feel did a great job in explaining the >appreciation for everything that is Gainsbourg ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 21:20:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Epoch/Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Is it true that there is an upcoming issue of EPOCH devoted to experimental fiction? I'd be curious to see who all is in that, see if there's any crossover among the poets/fiction writers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:29:55 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: Levistky--Connor & didacticism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very didactic response, no? But then you aren't writing poetry. . . I'd assume that most people associate didacticism with that vertically imposed clarity of style that is so offensive in some political statements, and people who write--though not just poets--are a little more self-conscious about popping people, things, actions into one classification or another (and that includes didactic vs. non-didactic people, things and actions). As to whether this is what Stroffolino was posting about. . .I can't say, I wasn't there. For all I know the eye-rolling had more to do with the embarassment that poets would dismissive their own work out of hand, or embarrassment that one should have to apologize for being didactic. . . I could spend a great deal of time arguing over the semantics of a term like "didactic" (Are the Creedos in Conjunction 21 negatively didactic? Is Wole Soyinka? Is Charles Olson? Is there a difference between pedagogical and didactic? If a poem brings us to conclusions through a "process of discovery and argument" are those conclusions less didactic than the conclusions of the rhetorician--or is the poet just a slyer rhetorician?) but it seems to me if poets are apologizing for their didacticism, than why shouldn't we expect the worst? What. . ."I'm sorry about this whole afghanistan business in the middle of this poem. . .it isn't very good. . . but it's got me bummed. Don't worry though, the next one has a real beat."? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:23:42 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: New Title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pavement Saw Press is taking pre-publication orders for Naton Leslie's _Their Shadows are Dark Daughters_ which will be done in a fine press edition of 500 copies. 32 pages. The price to order it now for US residents is $5.00 in US currency checks payable to Pavement Saw Press 7 James Street Scotia, NY 12302 Add $1 for Canada & $2.50 for other countries. These pieces are a serial poem. The example below may or may not give any notion about the title, with the exception that all of the pieces are stone sonatas to various degrees. "These Antiquities are so exceedingly old that no Bookes doe reach them, so there is no Way to retrive them but by comparative antiquitie, which I have writt upon the spott, from the Monuments themselves." —John Aubrey (1626?1697) ------ Callanish Stone Circle Isle of Lewis, Scotland On this island, a sea?sliver The Macleods, our name later, Would prize as defensible, We don't have a name except Picts, The peoples, and it is enough We can stand stones on point. When cut these fell out In slender daggers tipped at An incising angle. Sandstone Can gleam as gold, hold pockets Of quartz, though we have no Word for that but clear and Sharp and careful as that would Split away to its own mind. She came to see our standing stones And told me that our members have Been turned, in her, in our minds, And then she laughed, said all This work pointed out what We needed, the straight line thrust Into nowhere. That woman knows Too much our chief says and I Agreed, but I like her way Of running spirals in the places Of our love. But you must see Our stones on the coast, dozens In clear, concupiscent blue Of late autumns we have here, Engorged in the condensed light Of those short days, their shadows Are dark daughters. --------------------------- Release date 11/6/98. Products are available through the publisher or through: Small Press Distribution / 1341 Seventh St. / Berkeley, CA 94710 / 510.524.1668 after November 21st.. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:37:03 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. Content-Type: text/plain eryque: _Out of This World_ is an anthology which Anne edited of writings originally published in _The World_, St. Mark's literary magazine; I think this is about the third such anthology which she has edited. I don't know of a book that came from writing experiments done at St. Mark's, but it sounds interesting. Are you sure, though, you're not thinking of Bernadette Mayer's list of writing experiments, which was published in _In The American Tree_ & other places? Mark DuCharme >i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. >marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave >descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the >book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does >anyone know of such a book? > >i have found one edited by anne waldman titled "out of this world:", but >i'm still waiting for that one to come through the interlibrary loan. > >thanks, >eryque > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:48:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: UK Middle School Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit No no experience at all in that. A "sister-in-law" went to middle school there and likes the Goosebumps series very much. She is now in Boston, getting prepped for Vendler, no doubt. Has this something to do wth the purchase of Manchester United & the performance of Murdoch's Dodgers? Or perhaps the overcast skies of late? Catherine Daly cadaly@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:59:01 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Levistky--Connor & didacticism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A very didactic response, no? But then you aren't writing poetry. . . Exactly. > As to whether this is what Stroffolino was posting about. . .I can't > say, I wasn't there. For all I know the eye-rolling had more to do with > the embarassment that poets would dismissive their own work out of hand, > or embarrassment that one should have to apologize for being didactic. Yes. I don't know Connor's work, so I can't comment on the specifics, but I think we all know examples of poems that _are_ exasperatingly didactic. > . I could spend a great deal of time arguing over the semantics of a > term like "didactic" (Are the Creedos in Conjunction 21 negatively > didactic? Is Wole Soyinka? Is Charles Olson? Is there a difference > between pedagogical and didactic? It's a difference of connotation, perhaps. I'd read "didactic", in Louis' post, as being close to "preachy". I love writing that's full of _stuff_, that teaches us obscure details about mediaeval heresies or Mexican cuisine or stamp collecting. But this is different from telling us what to think. > If a poem brings us to conclusions > through a "process of discovery and argument" are those conclusions less > didactic than the conclusions of the rhetorician--or is the poet just a > slyer rhetorician?) As long as the emphasis is on our _own_ conclusions, rather than being forced to agree with the poets', then I wouldn't call it didactic. Cheers, Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:19:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The three World anthologies are prose and poetry books. A lot of St. Mark-type language experiments are found among many Teacher & Writer Books as excercises for students Bernadette mayer's list of language experiments is found in the reissued LABGUAGE BOOK joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:28:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: walking before running (teaching poetry) i suspect i'm about to make myself obnoxious to at least one or two people but here goes my cap over the dam... don't know vendler's anthology/syllabs. but i don't think a very traditional syllabus is a bad start for learning to read poetry. i think, by virtue of having twigged onto existence of list, everyone here is probably already an "expert" poetry reader and forgets that... reading poetry is HARD! when one has been reading it for a long time, it is easy to forget those first baby steps. even if they ARE from harvard, i think the students are, at least some of them, probably very much beginners in poetry. starting with a very traditional anthology means students get a chance to slowly work their way up the history of poetry, acquire a complex frame of reference, learn the "in" jokes. i think the idea of having a final student presentation of off-syllabus work, with a list of suggested writers, is a great idea, but i would not confine students to list. i'd ask that they look at work from at least a few of suggested writers (have handy -- what the heck, harvard has money -- xerox one or two poems each from your suggested list), and if none of these writers appeals to them, have them pick their own but say they must o.k. it with you a solid amount of time in advance, and specify no duplicates. it would be interesting to see who they come up with. i wouldn't let them start picking till at least a good way through semester, so they'll have some reading sophistication to use in choosing. if there are any students fluent in another language, you could suggest that they consider picking someone who writes in that other language. if student wants to choose someone who is not widely translated, have them read one poem in original language (providing translation as well) so people get sense of sound of original. have everyone xerox a selection of poems (3-7) from their chosen poet, and provide packet of these poems to class a couple of weeks in advance of presentations so people have time to read. this would let you slip in a whole new feature to syllabus which is student-chosen. even the grade grubs will sit up and take notice if you put hefty grade value on presentation. you could specify "living poets" except there are some very interesting experimental writing from older writers. anyway, that is my 50 cents on subject. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Agent Sunshine, a.k.a. Eric Gleason" Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book In-Reply-To: <01J2CXDER51E8X3LO9@cnsvax.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mark, thanks for the lead. i don't know if that's what i meant, but it sure sounds like what i'm looking for. now i just have to lay my hands on a copy of that book.... eryque > >Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:37:03 PDT >From: Mark DuCharme >Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. > >eryque: > >_Out of This World_ is an anthology which Anne edited of writings >originally published in _The World_, St. Mark's literary magazine; I >think this is about the third such anthology which she has edited. > >I don't know of a book that came from writing experiments done at St. >Mark's, but it sounds interesting. Are you sure, though, you're not >thinking of Bernadette Mayer's list of writing experiments, which was >published in _In The American Tree_ & other places? > >Mark DuCharme > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:12:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's also THE ART OF SCIENCE WRITING, edited by Mayer w/ Dale Worsley, which consists of exeriments and examples re: writing about science (imaginatively and otherwise). It's geared mostly towards high school and early college students, but is certainly worth checking out. (It's written as a textbook for use in science courses). Stephen >mark, thanks for the lead. i don't know if that's what i meant, but it >sure sounds like what i'm looking for. > >now i just have to lay my hands on a copy of that book.... > >eryque > >> >>Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:37:03 PDT >>From: Mark DuCharme >>Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. >> >>eryque: >> >>_Out of This World_ is an anthology which Anne edited of writings >>originally published in _The World_, St. Mark's literary magazine; I >>think this is about the third such anthology which she has edited. >> >>I don't know of a book that came from writing experiments done at St. >>Mark's, but it sounds interesting. Are you sure, though, you're not >>thinking of Bernadette Mayer's list of writing experiments, which was >>published in _In The American Tree_ & other places? >> >>Mark DuCharme >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:20:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. In-Reply-To: <199809281554.IAA19078@fraser.sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. > > marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave > > descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the > > book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does > > anyone know of such a book? I don't know about a whole book but 56 of these experiments can be found in boundary 2 23:3,1996 i use them in poetry workshops with high school kids all the time. what is also an added bonus is that the immediate preceding page is the last section of an interview with Charles Bernstein that acts as a great little pep talk for me when i go into a new class. au plutard, kevin Hourly a servant takes my temperature and gives me another. Erik Satie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:40:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: UK Middle School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You mean you haven't had an experience like that? or she didn't? OR I didn't? Well, I did and so do many still. Highest ever sickness rates. Cases going before courts for bullying and heavier stuff. Because your sister in law went to an okay school and didnt notice - as a pupil? they wouldn't see the bullying etc of teachers by teachers - doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere. Also, perhaps I didn't make clear, my experience was of a particular kind of inner city school but the diseases wch have been let loose in FE are now affecting pretty well all schools... They can't recruit enough teachers any more Our chief inspector of schools wants to go back to kings and queens history and believes that everything canbe measured by the same yardstick. We have a national curriculum which changes by the month with deep prescription. Lives are being wasted - I was being quite serious and, at the risk of going off poetics task, trying to pass on useful experience. So I didn't expect facetious disbelief. I am not at all interested in M.U. or any other lost continent of sport. And the weather has been fine. A tourist a few years back said to a Greek in my hearing, listen I've been in Turkey for SIX WEEKS so I KNOW; you guys should get together Anyway, think what you want. I'm going back to poetry while I wait for my time in court to come round L -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly Date: 29 September 1998 04:48 Subject: Re: UK Middle School |No no experience at all in that. A "sister-in-law" went to middle school |there and likes the Goosebumps series very much. She is now in Boston, |getting prepped for Vendler, no doubt. | |Has this something to do wth the purchase of Manchester United & the |performance of Murdoch's Dodgers? Or perhaps the overcast skies of late? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:56:15 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Above The Human Nerve Domain_ by Will Alexander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit _Above The Human Nerve Domain_ by Will Alexander is being released by Pavement Saw Press I am now taking advance orders for the paperback edition Poetry, 80pp, Perfect bound. ISBN 1-886350-81-7 Trade Soft-Cover edition. Pre-publication price: $10.00 for individuals in US Add $2 for Canada, $4.50 for points overseas. If you cannot afford this, ask your local library to buy it for you. $12 for paperback upon release. Distributed by Pavement Saw Press, Brodart & SPD. If you are a library or institution who does not currently receive all of our products on a "as released basis" or are extremely fond of Will's work there is also a limited edition Hardcover being released which will have 50 or less copies made. Backchannel me about this. Homemade & handbound. ISBN 1-886350-82-5 Hardcover limited edition. $75.00 Please send checks payable to: Pavement Saw Press 7 James Street Scotia, NY 12302 Attn: David Baratier Featuring work from the following periodicals: Sulfur, Orpheus Grid, apex of the M, non, Poetry Project World-Wide Web, The Alterran Poetry Assemblage, and Callaloo. The domain of poet Will Alexander’s nervy curiosity ranges from the icy Himalayas, to African savannahs, from physics. astronomy, and music, to alchemy, philosophy, and painting. Orishas, angels and ghosts all sing to this poet, instructing him in their art of verbal flight. This is a poet whose lexicon, a “glossary of vertigo,” might be culled from the complete holdings of a reconstituted Alexandrian library endowed for the next millenium. --Harryette Mullen Will Alexander’s writing is “movement / as dialectical alterity.” In reading Above the Human Nerve Domain, one recognized that what one thinks and one’s corpus are both “subjective exclusivity.” On this “language of disrupted ghosts” thought is corpus, “a body condensed in grace.” --Leslie Scalapino Will Alexander’s dazzling Above the Human Nerve Domain embraces the here and now, the after and the before. Scanning its images, words roll around the mind’s cavernous tongue. There is the feeling of being lost in the returned gaze of this quantum diorama, here primary and human, here blended apart from itself. But upon second seeing confusion seems to evaporate and the gaze of the diorama seems simultaneous with our own. The inner and outer don’t cease to exist but are given equal footing to comment on one another “in which mnemonic trance / co-intuits” as we’re reading this writer “with active double eurekas.” --Diane Ward This glorious set of whirling prosodic proofs exult that a body can be struck by stanzaic facts of light. The reader is dazzled by expanding forms of predictory anaphora arriving as an “intstantaneous beam.” The author of Vertical Rainbow Climber, Arcane Lavender Morals, Asia & Haiti, and The Stratospheric Canticles has done it again with strobic precision. --Norma Cole Title will be released November 24th. Pavement Saw Press is a not for profit organization, any donations are greatly appreciated and are considered as charitable tax donations under section 501(c) of the federal tax code. Thanks for keeping us open & healthy-- Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:57:04 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Right Livelihood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This title is now in. It arrived 9/22. There are under 50 copies left. It will sell out. Right Livelihood by David Brooks --------------------- De Gustibus What if eros resided in the stomach instead of the loins? Imagine that first freudian shock when the child wanders into the room and there’s mommy and daddy— eating steak! Think of the nervousness of teenagers having first soup, think of pizza in the back seat on Saturday night! The whole business of dinner would be taboo: subjects like how much is it normal to eat at one time or what if your dinner partner doesn’t seem satisfied suppressed for centuries, until the invention of the talk show. There would be a whole pornography based on food, right down to the stupid letters in Penthouse : “I came home and there was Bernice eating buffalo wings with a stranger on my living room floor. I got so excited I pulled out a bag of pretzels and ate them all myself!” Think of the unhappiness of confining food to marriage, when deep down we all know someone we wouldn’t mind having a snack with. How lewd now seems the business lunch, the honorary banquet! And what about those who sneak a little grub on the side? We’d punish a woman for eating around, but a man’s gotta eat when a man’s gotta eat, you see. After all we are better off with the grief from our groins than living in a world of anorexic saints, fearing the premature desert. Too sad to think of all those 900 numbers— you call someone up and they make it sound like its Thanksgiving dinner, but if you knew the truth, it’s someone who could care less about food, someone who couldn’t tell fois gras from Peter Pan. Copyright 1998. Pavement Saw Press -------- Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Award Series Perfect bound ISBN 1-886350-80-9 Price: $6.01 US Currency for US orders Add $1 US for Canada, $2.50 US for points overseas. Send checks payable to: Pavement Saw Press 7 James Street Scotia, NY 12302 Right Livelihood was selected by Jim Daniels as the 1997-98 winner of Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Award. In case I run out of copies, or it's more convenient for you, this title is also carried by: SPD / 1341 Seventh Street / Berkeley, CA 94710/ .510.524.0852 until they run out. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:54:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Fuhrman" Subject: Re: st. marks experiment book. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Of course, Mayer's list is also on the electric poetry center website. (Thank god--since I am always misplacing it.) Joanna Fuhrman On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, K.Angelo Hehir wrote: > > > > > > > i've heard rumor of a book that came from writing experiments done at st. > > > marks some time ago. the way the book was described was that it gave > > > descriptions of the experiments as well as the results. i also thought the > > > book was editied by bernadette mayer, but i can't verify that either. does > > > anyone know of such a book? > > I don't know about a whole book but 56 of these experiments can be found > in > > boundary 2 23:3,1996 i use them in poetry workshops with high school > kids all the time. what is also an added bonus is that the immediate > preceding page is the last section of an interview with Charles Bernstein > that acts as a great little pep talk for me when i go into a new class. > > au plutard, > kevin > Hourly a servant takes my temperature and gives me another. > Erik Satie > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:02:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: walking before running (teaching poetry) In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:28:00 -0400 from If I had an hour class to teach, I would read 2 poems in class, one from the Vendler list & one of your own choosing. 2 short poems. Then I would "lecture" on them, half hour each, with all the references, ideas, sidelights, background, foreground, weird slants, etc. that you can come up with. I would start encouraging feedback from the 1st class & expect students to be active in the discussions as they get used to it. I think you can give a class all the lists, anthologies & suggested readings you want but without that close extended encounter, they won't have the tools or the motivation to explore much. (by background I mean not just purely literary, but poet's bios, history, politics...) Thoughts of a non-teach. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:35:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: Potes & Poets chapbooks in detail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As promised, here is more detailed information about our chapbook series... POTES & POETS' FIRST CHAPBOOK SERIES Please order from SPD, 1341 Seventh Ave, Berkeley CA 94710 or tel. 1-800-869-7553 ISBN PREFIX: 0-937013- Drafts of the Sorcery. Jake Berry. $7.00 -81-1 *37pp Jake Berry composed the 4 poems of Drafts of the Sorcery during the four seasons of the year beginning with autumnal equinox 1997. They are experiments in various approaches that will eventually be included in his long work BRAMBU DREZI, the second book of which was released by Pantograph Press in spring 1998. Berry has published 15 books of poetry. He is also a folk musician, his first CD, Shadow Resolve appeared in 1997 from Front Porch, and he has just completed a second collection of original songs with Wayne Sides, performing under the name Bare Knuckles. Studio As History. Ryan Whyte. $7.00 -78-1 *39pp After the failure of the twentieth century's avant-gardes to liberate art from the confines of class and institution, it is perhaps necessary to re-examine the structures of those very confines. 'Studio as History' posits the myth of the Studio as the tain of a mirror which enables the art-world to continue to reverse the conditions of the 'real,' economic world of power and thus widen the gulf between art and life. A work of speculative historiography, this essay ranges among Greek history, Scholasticism, Romanticism, and phenomenology. Its author, Ryan Whyte, is an artist and critic. Subterfuge for the Unrequitable. Carrie Etter. $6.00 -79-X *27pp A collection of poems that contemplate the erotic as a subterfuge for the unrequitable, masking while inevitably revealing the discreteness of bodies and minds. Ron Silliman comments, "To 'register the tongue's torque,' Carrie Etter's poems show great skill and a willingness to take risks, both rare things in a 'first book.' This writing is simultaneously 'out there' and always also immediately present (in the most literal sense of 'with it'), an experience that is by turns centering and dizzying. It's quite a ride." Quite Vacation. Jack Kimball. $6.00 -83-8 *27pp A serialized, noirish gallop across tones and attitudes of language. Each verse stands on its own yet radiates outward to engage all the other co-conspirators in the sequence. Had Wieners or O'Hara wed the frog princess, their firstborn might have sounded like Kimball. Dickinsonian without parsimony, Spicerly without rancor. Alan Sondheim comments, "Just wonderful, that's all I can say, wonderful." Improvisations / Transformations. Jim Leftwich. $7.00 -76-5 *45pp Three poems: *Alto Ossia*, *Unambiguous Eggs* and *Unambiguous Eggs* full of neologisms, unusual visual spacings, and dense musical text make up this unique chapbook from the editor of JUXTA and JUXTA/ELECTRONIC. From *Alto Ossia*: "yntaxtly em to dyne. meat rose singerprints fght mission. …" Words, sentences and poems on the edge of meaning that tantalize the reader's mind to finesse around the spaces between reality and pure syntactic innovation. Little Wives. Barbara Cole. -82-X $7.00 *35pp *little wives* "...aims at nothing less than re-entering the women of modernism--producers, compromised producers, and triumphant poets, as well as re-locating significant creations of male modernists (Molly Bloom) that have structured thinking about the female character in the 20th century." -- Rachel Blau DuPlessis. Barbara Cole recently completed her M.A. in Creative Writing -- Poetry at Temple University. An editor of the the new poetry magazine, *pH*, her second chapbook, *postcards*, is due out in Winter 1998 from BeautifulSwimmer Press. Sarah Mangold. Blood Substitutes. $7.00 -77-3 *45pp "I sometimes :skip skip: it's about// affection it's all a fiction// I wanted - - I'm - - a place// wolves to the lake//. . .". Mangold has been published in Fourteen Hills and The Midland Review. She was born in 1971 in Omaha, Nebraska and grew up in Kansas and Oklahoma. She received a BA from the University of Oklahoma and is currently a MFA candidate at San Francisco State University. This work represents a diaristic venture into the poet's daily life that is enigmatic in its short phrases and disjunct manner of reporting that life. Music, No Staves. Katy Lederer. $6.00 -80-3 *22pp. In MUSIC, NO STAVES, which begins as an elegy and ends as a love poem, Lederer explores the relationship between father and daughter via a series of traditional, though nonetheless scandalous tropes. The form of the poem - which is sometimes mimetic, sometimes disruptive, but always furtive in its effects-acts as counterpoint to the gravity of the subject-matter. Originally from New Hampshire, Katy Lederer lives in New York City, where she edits Explosive Magazine. She has another chapbook out from idiom press entitled Faith. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: thanks In-Reply-To: <22be5793.361020b7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:50 PM -0400 9/28/98, Jacques Debrot wrote: >Thank you, everyone who got back to me, for your terrific sugestions; can't >wait to put them to use. > >j And if all else fails, hit 'em with the Pisan Cantos: Said Mr Adams, of the education, Teach? at Harvard? Teach? It cannot be done. (LXXIV/433) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: didacticism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I try to think of didactic poems I am fond of they are all tongue in cheek, like Koch's "Some General Instructions" or Notely's hilarious extension of this concept in a poem I read recently in her selected poems. Of course, Pound is very DIDACTIC also, that is what that "village explainer" quip was all about. Williams picks up on this Poundian tone when he takes that "Let me tell you, my townspeople, how to conduct a funeral" or "Rather notice, mon cher, how the steeple" tone. Wrongly or rightly, most contemporary readers don't like to be brow-beaten. What is didactic is not the conveyance of a message per se, but a certain rhetorical gesture equivalent to grabbing you by the lapels. There are powerful poems that we might not think of as didactic because they skip this gesture, The Crowd at the ball game, The Yachts, In Chains: When blackguards and murderers under cover of their offices accuse the world of those villainies which they themselves invent to torture us--we have no choice but to bend to their designs, buck them or be trampled while our thoughts gnaw, snap and bite within us helplessly--unless we learn from that to avoid being as they are, how love will rise out of its ashes if we water it, tie up its slender stem and keep the image of its lively flower chiseled upon our minds. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:42:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Re: thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The students had already elected courses numbered 1, 2, and 3, without knowing what was to be taught or who was to teach. If their new professor had asked what idea was in their minds, they must have replied that nothing at all was in their minds, since their professor had nothing in his, and down to the moment he took his chair and looked his scholars in the face, he had given, as far as he could remember, an hour, more or less, to the Middle Ages. ... The only teaching that appealed to his imagination was a course of lectures by Louis Agassiz on the Glacial Period and Paleontology, which had more influence on his curiosity than the rest of the college instruction altogether. The entire work of the four years could have been easily put into the work of any four months in after life. ... The task was doomed to failure for a reason which he could not control. Nothing is easier than to teach historical method, but, when learned, it has little use. History is a tangled skein that one may take up at any point, and break when one has unravelled enough; but complexity precedes evolution. The Pteraspis grins horribly from the closed entrance. ... Thousands of men have to do the same thing, but his case was peculiar because he had no need to do it. He did it because his best and wisest friends urged it, and he never could make up his mind whether they were right or not. To him this kind of education was always false. For himself he had no doubts. He thought it a mistake; but his opinion did not prove that it was one, since, in all probability, whatever he did would be more or less a mistake. He had reached cross-roads of education which all led astray. What he could gain at Harvard College he did not know, but in any case it was nothing he wanted. At 10:23 AM 9/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 7:50 PM -0400 9/28/98, Jacques Debrot wrote: >>Thank you, everyone who got back to me, for your terrific sugestions; can't >>wait to put them to use. >> >>j > >And if all else fails, hit 'em with the Pisan Cantos: > > Said Mr Adams, of the education, > Teach? at Harvard? > Teach? It cannot be done. > (LXXIV/433) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:38:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Levistky--O'Connor In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Sep 1998 18:22:59 -0400 from Chris drops another bombshell on the list - we haven't had many lately. Why is didacticism taboo among the "avant-garde"? he asks. But the word has a negative ring not just among the avant-garde. Joseph Brodsky was one not-so-avant-gardist who thought & wrote in various ways that aesthetics precedes, underwrites, ethics. This probably had more to do with his position in Russian poetry than in the West. But it seems pretty representative among artists. Chris's described audience may have rolled their eyes because art is a kind of discipline, a cultus. The askesis of invisible poetry is rewarded with a shared experience "purified" of extraneous issues. The cultus in fact finds didacticism unethical within the system in which art is enclosed in its own play sphere. The irony is that "alternative" art is in part an alternative to a society perceived to have lost its bearings. A sort of fallen world in which public discourse & the institutions that underwrite it - public schools, journalism, politics, local communities, shared labors - are seen variously as corrupt, confused, betrayed, misled, oppressive, oppressed, etc. I don't happen to agree with the Brodsky view; I don't think either ethics or aesthetics are "prior" to one another. Thus the idea of a poetry that teaches, or denounces, is not automatically anti- aesthetic; nor is a poetry that skillfully renders itself as art-for-art's-sake necessarily poetry. One must take a deep breath and consider the radical idea that poetry might speak with authority & glee at the same time. Hey Pushkin! - Henry Gould [p.s. I know these ain't nothin new to youse all. Eric Blarnes was talkin up this stuff just the other day.] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Kyle's didactics / Rachel's energy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris -- Well, Kyle _did_ apologize four or five times for the didacticism -- so that the apology (as well as the didacticism) became a running gag at which the audience members were almost _supposed_ to roll their eyes -- not to mention suspend the inquiry as to whether these poems were in fact instructional -- didn't you think they were more moral (a la Laforgue or early Eliot?) than instructional? Nice to hear an epigraph from Valery in 1998 -- the ur-Wittgenstein? -- Also, with all this talk about didacticism and Kyle's enjoyable stance Rachel's wild funny thoughtful reading seems to have been set aside -- do writers come out of schools? Rachel seems recognizably _of_ Naropa, in that she's much more interested in accumulating energy than in dispelling it with asides and remarks, but there's critical thought along with the joy -- is this all hooey I'm saying? maybe, anyway, looking forward to further readings and writings from Kyle and Rachel -- Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: Re: the dog & the disrupted surface Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >_Out of This World_ is an anthology which Anne edited of writings >originally published in _The World_, St. Mark's literary magazine; I >think this is about the third such anthology which she has edited. > >I don't know of a book that came from writing experiments done at St. >Mark's, but it sounds interesting. Are you sure, though, you're not >thinking of Bernadette Mayer's list of writing experiments, which was >published in _In The American Tree_ & other places? > >Mark DuCharme No boke of experiments from Poetry Project, tho' the Mayer list of writing experiments can be found at project website -- www.poetry project.com -- which at the moment has work in it's various satchels by Paul Beatty, Brenda Coultas, Jackson MacLow, Rosa Alcala, Alice Notley & bunches of others. I would second the first hand for Teachers & Writers books -- Padgett-edited book of forms, Larry Fagin's book on the list poem, & lots of others which Jordan Davis could elaborate on with more depth; would even say that the book on forms might be the thing for Jacques' Harvard poetry section. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:56:47 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: Re: didacticism Content-Type: text/plain Is Mark Wallace's, "How to Finish a Story..." didactic...see (thanks to his EPC page) http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace/finish.html -or- Mark, is the above didactic. As to didactic being a little on the taboo side in poetry; maybe it's a good enough thing, 'cuz pieces I find to be faux-didactic (tongue in cheek) are that much better for it? lastly, anybody in the DC metro area, you can get directions to tonights DiPalma reading at the GMU bookstore by calling 703/993-1000, then press 6. If the directions are no good, I'll be lost in the same place. Just a reminder, starts at 8pm, bookstore, lower level jperez/lennyhoffman@hotmail.com/jperez@armscontrol.org ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 19:05:24 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Philly's didactics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're going to have to pry our didacticism from our cold unmoving hands. To start up a reading series call everyone you know and convince a few of them that they are poets until they start to write something then ask them to retype it and ask them to send it to Epoch and stand up among a group of other acoyoltes who have been trained in the same capacity and switch back and forth. Until their mouths are dacytl weapons. A pack of poets is best to groom. That way they can rob and loot others and split the gun rental cost five ways in order to support their craft. Never apologize unless it's funny or can be made so. Blood rituals are necessary so a knife is in order. I am sorry we made pirogues out of your grandmother, but we thought you should have some. They are your pirogues now. Have the weakest member of the pack read and explain experimental poetries to toughen them. Suggest a metrical structure which emphasizes heavy breathing in so far as to allow them to write poems throughout the day. Banks have more money than bodegas. Hand over the signed hardcover first editions. I am sorry you are better looking than your mother. Have one of them be a huffer of any known propellant forms. This will thicken the plot of your story especially if one gets a good dose of airplane glue in their nose. Since fiction pays better this could help in the long haul. Calling yourself a poet is a cop out and a breech of poetics. Have a secret poetic handshake. Like this. I'm sorry. Make sure they know they are in it for the long haul. That leaving or staying with poetry will kill them, one faster than the other. Jordan: Kyle comes from the Philadelphia school if this was really a school. Perhaps it would "include" all the folks who centered around my house for two years starting about four yrs ago for a workshop that met once or twice a month : Valerie Hanson, Kevin Varrone, Ethel Rackin, Ron Powerhaus Swegman, Major Jackson, Steve Potter, Dave Simpson, Laura Wilder, Ron Wandover, Matt Danish and others. Except for a sense of magick there, as evidenced through the amount published afterwards, the journals edited since, the reading series run, that we're real active, what else is there to say. Except this. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:34:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Susan Wheeler Reading in L.A. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I hope all of you will try to come to the campus of Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles for: Susan Wheeler Tuesday October 6 7:30 PM McIntosh Center in Sullivan Hall for those of you flying out from New York, this is just a few minutes from the L.A. airport -- Those with nerve to drive the freeway, take the Manchester exit from the 405 and drive toward the ocean -- turn right on Loyola Blvd. -- from Santa Monica and environs, you might want to take Lincoln to Manchester to avoid the 405 -- call (310) 338-3078 for info -- that's me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Agent Sunshine, a.k.a. Eric Gleason" Subject: Re: mayer's experiments MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" someone backchanneled a message to me earlier with an url for mayer's experiments. somewhere that message was lost and returned to the earth, it's no longer on my email account. would you mind sending again? thanks once more, eryque ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: St. Mark's Experiment Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Anselm may have posted this information directly from the office = already, but just in case ... You can find Bernadette Mayer's List of Journal Ideas & Writing = Experiments posted on the Poetry Project web site: = www.poetryproject.com. It's linked through the Workshops Page. If you = have trouble finding it, please e-mail me at poproj@artomatic.com. = Eventually, the section will be linked to the welcome page. Also, as Bernadette said at the bottom of the original: "Please add your = own experiments to this list." We've added an e-mail link at the bottom = for you to do so. The Poetry Project website also has World archives now, including poems = by Paul Beatty, Jackson Mac Low & Eric Bogosian. Small right now, but = more to come soon ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 20:10:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precisely! In fact I taught Plath right up against Cha in the class in which Cha was a top-of-the-charts hit. I used the rubric of "identities" and the "personal" throughout the semester, and the students at San Francisco State really responded to all the "difficult" texts I put before them. In fact my willingness to teach such a variety of work really allowed the students to loosen up in their own creative experiments. What it's really about is igniting the students with excitement about the possibilities of language. Yes, teaching poetry IS difficult. Reading poetry IS difficult. And many students--I don't care if they're at Harvard or where they come from--are intimidated by the very thought of studying poetry. It's a great gift you give students when you equip them with the tools necessary to read a poem. Kathy Lou Schultz MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > > Believe it or not, innovative practice can be included side-by-side with > the more traditional syllabus as long as you're able to stretch > definitions. Maybe the traditional syllabus says, for example, > autobiography or uses of the personal. Maybe "Daddy" by Plath is there. > Why not juxtapose it with sections of "My Life" by Hejinian? Students > then can see the range of what personal can mean. > > Maxine Chernoff > > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > > > One of the greatest successes I've had as far as an individual text goes > > is teaching _Dictee_ by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha. Ways into this from > > VendlerLand? Start charting out the relationship of poetry/poetics/poets > > to the visual arts. New York School--obvious--canonical choices there. > > Then provide a contemporary example such as Cha who was also a filmmaker > > and visual artist. There's also a lot that can be done in terms of > > examining what a "personal narrative" what encompass--always a favorite > > of self-obsessed undergrads, Harvard or otherwise. > > > > My advice: Don't think in terms oppositions (good/bad, > > canonical/noncanonical) but instead provide examples around the map that > > illustrate different ways of thinking and composing. And just think, you > > have the opportunity to teach students how to read poetry. Most college > > English majors don't know how to read the stuff, but a great teacher can > > open that door. Have fun! > > > > Kathy Lou Schultz > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:55:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: Re: Philly's didactics? Comments: To: baratier@megsinet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/29/98 9:33:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, baratier@megsinet.net writes: << Jordan: Kyle comes from the Philadelphia school if this was really a school. >> No offense to Kyle, David, or anyone else mentioned in that message, but... if there is only one Philly school, can we at least have different classrooms? Or do the rest of us have to stand out back & clap the erasers? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:41:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: another course request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm doing book orders for a "Foundations of Creative Writing" course next term. I'm going to have students read some defenses of poetry, but I'm wondering if there's anything comparable for prose. Defense of Prose? Any good attacks on that genre? Thanks in advance, Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: October 3 "Cirque de Soiree" in San Francisco Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone, it's Kevin Killian. On Saturday October 3rd here in San Francisco we're having a big fundraiser for Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center. It'll be at New College (766 Valencia, between 18th and 19th) between 4:00 and 9:00 p.m. I hope all of you who are free that day and will be nearby will come. "Cirque de Soiree" is our fourth annual literary "soiree" & auction and you're guaranteed lots of fun. Tickets are on a sliding scale, you can pay as little as $10 or as much as $1000. Here are some of the highlights: This year we honor six local writers, the biographers Diane Wood Middlebrook, John Felstiner, and Millicent Dillon; the novelist Michael Nava; and the poets Kathleen Fraser and Clark Coolidge . . . all have promised to show up, live, in person, and Kathleen will read. Tons of food donated by the top restaurants, delis, groceries and health food stores of the Mission! Live music by all these different local acts! Palm reading! Cash bar! Poets' Theater: my own play, directed by me, "The House of Forks" with a cast of Bay Area's greatest and hammiest talents, including Edmund Berrigan, Taylor Brady, Maxine Chernoff, Norma Cole, Renee Gladman, Lauren Gudath, Kevin Killian, Nathen Lever, Yedda Morrison, Ed Moyer, Jocelyn Saidenburg, and Elizabeth Treadwell. You won't believe your eyes and ears. Manuscript Auction: From the high to the low and back of contemporary literature. Catalogue available . . . E-mail me or call me if you want a copy. Books signed by Paul Auster, William Bronk, William S. Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Nikki Giovanni, Stephen King, Gary Snyder, Gertrude Stein, . . . and we are so pleased by being able to auction off our great gift from Granary Books, the incredible "KIN" collaboration between Anne Waldman and Susan Rothenberg. (Thank you Steve Clay for this and many other books from Granary.) MORE! Signed broadsides, graphic works, photographs, etc., other memorabilia from Robert Creeley, Ronald Johnson, Amy Tan, Robert Berg & Robin Blaser, Ray Bradbury & Jill Krementz, Julia Child, David Cronenberg, Sandra Dee, Robert Duncan & Jess, Greg "Luann" Evans, Alice Notley, and Anne Rice--the Queen of the Night . . . Manuscript material from Anne-Marie Albiach (yikes! The entire manuscript of "A Geometry"--in French!), Will Alexander, Djuna Barnes, Paul Cadmus, Anne Carson, Noam Chomsky, Clark Coolidge, Lydia Davis, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, William Gibson, Barbara Guest, Thom Gunn, Fanny Howe, Kenneth Koch, Dean Koontz, Carole Maso, Jan Morris, Michael Ondaatje, and Phyllis A. Whitney . . . Yes the high and the low! And yes you can afford any of these items! Walk away with your own copy of the "Making of Americans" signed by Stein! Or whatever. And maybe you'll get lucky with our raffle, many valuable prizes, many lucky winners. So, all of these things will be happening simultaneously this Saturday October 3rd, between 4 & 9, for more information, call (415) 437-3454. Or, back channel me with all of your questions. Thanks everybody. I want you all to know that our volunteer committee of 29 people have been working for months to show you a real good time, and all the proceeds go to help the cause of poetry and poetics here in San Francisco at Small Press Traffic. So come on down! Thanks again . . . Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: Levistky--O'Connor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps tacky to respond to a thread with my name on it the irony that my name (spelled deliciously wrong) heads a thread on someone elses didacticism when I, the FEMINIST, with a capital finger pointing at me would be accused of it and yet I have nothing to do with all of it though I in fact think my ultimate goals are THOROUGHLY DIDACTIC. For example, this from Yaya and Grace: ----------------------------------------------------------- Yaya and Grace get together to declare: For now on sexual love will be a matter only between women. The penis will be not more than an auto-erotic stand. Some men when faced with this new edict will augment their breasts and dress in a manner customary for women. Women will accept these men into their couplings only if they chose to refrain from making what is sublime grotesque. Use of the grotesque will be reserved for the naturally exagerated behavior patterns of those walking alone. There will be no live performance of sexual love for those excluded, the video can be purchased for $10.00. A registration form will be filled out and a positive identification number will be recorded. Be prepared to give us your mother’s maiden name with the correct spelling and the time, place and date of her birth. You will need to provide this information if you would like to review the results or, your homosexuality. Rest assured, all is confidential. Note: Currently, no explanation is being offered for the new prohibitions so please don’t ask. To do so will cause unseemly physical ailments, mainly having to do with the hands and the feet. In particular, fungus on the nails. The will grow thick and ridged and yellow, making future couplings unlikely. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 06:09:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980929104253.006c5cbc@po7.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want to compile a list of contest judges who have awarded prizes to their students. It doesn't matter if the judges are mainstream poets or otherwise. Someone who's very good at rewarding his students for emulation is Charles Wright. He's chosen at least two of his former students for book prizes (one twice). Heather McHugh has. Jorie Graham has. In each case I would like to know the name of the student as well as the name of the judge, because, as I say, some teachers have done this many many times. Would anyone know of others besides Graham, McHugh, Wright? Instances from previous decades? Gabriel Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 03:19:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Levistky--O'Connor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Levitsky wrote: > For now on sexual love will be a matter only between women. The penis > will be not more than an auto-erotic stand. I thought perhaps a hat rack. > Some men when faced with > this new edict will augment their breasts and dress in a manner > customary for women. Women will accept these men into their couplings > only if they chose to refrain from making what is sublime grotesque. Damn! I'll miss you, George. > Use of the grotesque will be reserved for the naturally exagerated > behavior patterns of those walking alone. And will be strictly regulated by the Ministry of Silly Walks. (the other) Rachel L. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: another course request In-Reply-To: <95b77246.3611b695@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Prose is indefensible. But seriously, I think Sidney and Shelley were defending not poetry as a genre, or "verse," but poesie in a larger sense; their defenses (or apologies) apply beyond what we think of as "poetry" today. On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Susan Schultz wrote: > I'm doing book orders for a "Foundations of Creative Writing" course next > term. I'm going to have students read some defenses of poetry, but I'm > wondering if there's anything comparable for prose. Defense of Prose? Any > good attacks on that genre? > Thanks in advance, > > Susan Schultz > Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: hate to MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit have to do this but DAVID BROMIGE I am trying really hard to send you email and it just wont work. Backchannel and I'll try some more with that. Sure I have your address correct, Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:21:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: First Intensity #11 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Latest edition of First Intensity now avalable. #11 features: McNaughton, Adnan, Irby, Enslin, McCrary, Economou, Gifford, Hollo, Borkhuis, Podgurski, Ricchiute, Cook, Gilbert, Fox, Larkin, Reeves, Salerno, Robinson, Olson, peck, DuCharme, Shattuck, Pines, Roeseler. To quote Lee Chapman (editor/publisher): "First Intensity operates independently of an college, university, or federal, state or other cultural/arts organization." Order direct from FI, POB 665, Lawrence, Ks 66044 ($8.00) or SPD, Berkeley. Thanks, Jim McCrary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:45:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Public Secrets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested in things situationist, this is worth a visit: > Announcing a new website for the BUREAU OF PUBLIC SECRETS: > > http://www.slip.net/~knabb > > The site features extensive selections from Ken Knabb's > SITUATIONIST INTERNATIONAL ANTHOLOGY (translations from the > notorious group that helped trigger the May 1968 revolt in > France) and from PUBLIC SECRETS, the recent collection of > Knabb's own writings, including "The Joy of Revolution," > "How I Became an Anarchist," "How I Became a Situationist," > and an assortment of comics, leaflets and articles on > Wilhelm Reich, Kenneth Rexroth, Gary Snyder, the sixties > counterculture, radical women, socially engaged Buddhism, > urban "psychogeography," the Watts riot, the Iranian > revolution, the Gulf war, and the recent jobless revolt in > France. Many other texts, old and new, will be added in the > coming months. > > Bureau of Public Secrets > P.O. Box 1044 > Berkeley, CA 94701 > > E-mail: knabb@slip.net > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:21:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: another course request In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:58 AM 9/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >Prose is indefensible. But seriously, I think Sidney and Shelley were >defending not poetry as a genre, or "verse," but poesie in a larger sense; >their defenses (or apologies) apply beyond what we think of as "poetry" >today. as does Aristotle on a more recent note, in 1996 Burning Deck published Paul Auster's book, *Why Write?* which collects seven pieces which might be thought of as Auster's "defense." charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:42:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poproj Subject: zinc bar oct shed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" October at the Zinc Bar is looking like this: Oct. 4 -- Jordan Davi$ & Lytle Shaw Oct. 11 -- Lee Ann Brown & Shelly Marlowe Oct. 18 -- Donna Cartelli & Michael Gottlieb Oct. 25 -- Lisa Lubasch & Max Winter Zinc Bar is at 90 W. Houston St., readings at 6:30, generally Sundays, $3 donation for readers suggested. One can call 212-366-2091 for other kinds of details from Douglas Rothschild who maintains the current polarities along with Brendan "my lungfull is water-proof" Lorber. About this sunday's reading: Jordan Davis is the author of The Economist, Beowulf, Dismembering Derrida, The London Review of Books, Upstairs, Pome on a Train, & other volumes. He is a figment of the local & national consciousness, spackles, & represents the finer side of the human dilemma. Lytle Shaw recently transplanted himself. He is an Idiom hero who places poetics squarely in the jaws of the beast. He fills speech balloons during the summer & does not regret the San Francisco. He will cause you to think about the nature of your engagement. Anselm B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 11:03:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Kyle's didactics / Rachel's energy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jordan Davis wrote: > Also, with all this talk about didacticism and Kyle's enjoyable stance > Rachel's wild funny thoughtful reading seems to have been set aside -- do > writers come out of schools? Rachel seems recognizably _of_ Naropa, in that > she's much more interested in accumulating energy than in dispelling it with > asides and remarks, but there's critical thought along with the joy -- is > this all hooey I'm saying? maybe, anyway, looking forward to further > readings and writings from Kyle and Rachel -- Jordan Still here at Naropa, I have to say that Rachel's work is very different from most of what goes on here. Rachel arrived at Naropa with her wild-funny-thoughtfulness and took it with her when she left. Would that there were a little more of it still around. But I'll take advice from her any day. Re. this idea of schools, I think a good school would be one that didn't produce writers identifiable with that particular school. Otherwise, it's more like a machine. Cranking out Naropa poetry, Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 12:57:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: more writing experiments Comments: cc: poproj@artomatic.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jonathan Mayhew's Writing Experiments (with apologies to Bernadette Mayers) 1. Make a list of writing experiments. 2. Write a poem in which you include some reference, explicit or implicit, to everyone you know who has committed suicide. 3. Write poems designed for a particular magazine (a la Jack Spicer), even if this magazine doesn't publish poetry. Send the poems to the magazine as you write them until they either publish you are tell you to stop. 4. If you are an academic, give an academic paper composed entirely of heroic couplets. Don't tell anyone what you are doing. 5. "Ghost-write" poems for politicians or celebrities. 6. Write non-stop for 6 months, in every waking hour not devoted to any other necessary activity. 7. Compose a poem employing as many metaphors or example as possible derived from Wittgenstein's _Philosophical Investigations_. 8. Read only poetry written before 1800 for a year. See if your writing has changed. If it has changed for the better do the same with 1700. 9. Take a book of poetry by someone else and compose poetic responses to every single poem. Try this with a poet you hate and then with a poet you love. Try writing your poems directly in the book, if you can stand to deface it. 10. Invent "heteronimos" a la Pessoa. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:12:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes i know list had a discussion on this about a year or so ago. personally i think such behavior dishonest and offensive. if a teacher of mine were judging a contest, i simply would not submit. if i submitted before i knew they were judging, i might either write to disqualify myself, or perhaps contact teacher and tell them not to read my submission. if all that failed, and i won, i would not feel very good about it. i know anthony hecht recommended james merril for award (nba) one year he was judging. and said (perhaps facetiously) in correspondence to e. bishop that he saw no point in reading other works since none could match up to merrill's work. i don't recall if that was a year that merrill won, but i believe it was. merrill was friend, rather than student. i still got the willies reading that letter. but i am not convinced contests are the way to go either. i think ther is a level of quality in most things such that things can be as good, and nothing can be better, and few things can be as good. things can be as good but good in different ways. at a certain point, a contest seems a bit arbitrary. even, a bit like lotto. do i enter them -- occasionally. have i ever won one -- no. do i think that is fair -- of course not! i should win every contest, everywhere, all the time! says one part of me. another says "oh, you really are not very good as a writer -- you see, proof." can you see why i have an ambiguous relationship to contests! e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Mayer not Mayers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I meant Mayer not "Mayers." This is a lot of fun. Here are the next 10 experiments: 11. Compose a "Japanese Poetic Diary" 12. Write an autobiography, but including only events having to do with particular "subjects" (cooking, jazz, landlords, shoes). 13. Write the eleventh "Duino Elegy" 14. Write a book of poetry in which the letter B never appears. See if anyone notices. 15. Parody your own style. 16. Stage elaborate contests (sestina contests, memorizing contests, rhyming contests). 17. Invent multiple ways of "gambling" on poetry (e.g. on the contests devised above). 18. Create a "neo-classical" style that is as regular and normative as Racine. The vocabulary should be fairly limited, the syntax limpid, the versification utterly smooth. Use this style as your normal mode of communication as much as you can get away with. 19. Try to get non-poets to collaborate with you on grandiose poetic projects. Test your persuasive powers. 20. Convince famous painters to illustrate your work or paint your portrait, or composers to set your poems to music. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Both this list and CAP-L discussed this subject at great length last year, but I think Graham was the only judge explicitly mentioned. I do remember a controversy a few years ago involving Maxine Kumin -- she had apparently chosen a ms. by a personal friend in an "open" competition, a choice which she adamantly defended in a letter to _Poets & Writers_, I believe, on the grounds that to her it was plainly the best entry. In the early years of the National Poetry Series, four books were annointed outright by judges who solicited mss. from friends and students -- nothing hidden about this -- and only the fifth came out of a slush pile. Now supposedly all five are the results of "open" competition. I see nothing morally wrong with poets helping to advance their students and friends by making phone calls, writing supportive letters to publishers, etc. Frankly, that's probably how 90% of poetry books -- or any books -- get published. The crime comes where you have 600-1000 folks naively sending in $25 checks on the assumption that their ms. will be read and evaluated blindly, without regard to who wrote it. I think that if any press or organization sponsoring an "open" contest in which the judge picks a personal friend or student gets caught (even if they weren't aware of the judge's dubious action at the time), they should publish the book at their own expense and refund the entry fees to the contestants. Otherwise it's a blatant violation of trust. Just curious, Gabriel... are you planning to write an expose? I think it would be terrific if you did. What the hell -- it's the Age of Lewinsky. -- Fred M. >I want to compile a list of contest judges who have awarded prizes to >their students. > >It doesn't matter if the judges are mainstream poets or otherwise. > >Someone who's very good at rewarding his students for emulation is >Charles Wright. He's chosen at least two of his former students for book >prizes (one twice). > >Heather McHugh has. Jorie Graham has. > >In each case I would like to know the name of the student as well as >the name of the judge, because, as I say, some teachers have done this >many many times. > >Would anyone know of others besides Graham, McHugh, Wright? > >Instances from previous decades? > > >Gabriel Gudding ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:17:55 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: Philly's didactics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sorry I left you out Chris. You were the one with the Wizard Dual Action spray, right? Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:20:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: <199809301812.OAA07367@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1). Thank you for your response, Eliza 2). Yes, expanding the list to friends might be useful. So, 3). Has anyone knowledge of judges choosing _friends_ as well as students? 4). Yupola: Nepotism and the arbitrary certainly are the name of the game. But since it's difficult to gauge the former, I'd like to grock the latter. 4.5). Am cynical about none of this: it's just sort of interesting in a boring kind of way. 5). I'm not being reform-minded, and my interest in this certainly isn't original, but I'd simply someday like to see a history -- or at least a list -- of who chose whom for many of these thingies. 6). Of our subscribers, for instance, how many have chosen their own students or friends? Of our subscribers, how many have been chosen by friends or teachers? 7). Not interested in editorial choices for magazine publication: that's a different matter and is small potatoes, and happens too often to be considered scandalous. But book publication is a little more interesting, isn't it. 8). I sometimes dress-up like Else von Freytag-Loringhoven. On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Eliza McGrand wrote: > i know list had a discussion on this about a year or so ago. > > personally i think such behavior dishonest and offensive. if a teacher of > mine were judging a contest, i simply would not submit. if i submitted > before i knew they were judging, i might either write to disqualify > myself, or perhaps contact teacher and tell them not to read my submission. > if all that failed, and i won, i would not feel very good about it. > > i know anthony hecht recommended james merril for award (nba) one year > he was judging. and said (perhaps facetiously) in correspondence to e. > bishop that he saw no point in reading other works since none could match > up to merrill's work. i don't recall if that was a year that merrill won, > but i believe it was. merrill was friend, rather than student. i still > got the willies reading that letter. > > but i am not convinced contests are the way to go either. i think ther > is a level of quality in most things such that things can be as good, and > nothing can be better, and few things can be as good. things can be as > good but good in different ways. at a certain point, a contest seems > a bit arbitrary. even, a bit like lotto. > > do i enter them -- occasionally. have i ever won one -- no. do i think > that is fair -- of course not! i should win every contest, everywhere, > all the time! says one part of me. another says "oh, you really are > not very good as a writer -- you see, proof." can you see why i have > an ambiguous relationship to contests! > e > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thank you, Fred. Though it's as you say the age of Lewinsky I don't imagine I'll write an expose. But I wouldn't mind however if any history I might come to write about this problem eventually won me an internship in the White House. I'll dip into the archive here if I can recall how to do that and read about Graham and the others. Thanks. Gabe On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Fred Muratori wrote: > Both this list and CAP-L discussed this subject at great length last year, > but I think Graham was the only judge explicitly mentioned. I do remember a > controversy a few years ago involving Maxine Kumin -- she had apparently > chosen a ms. by a personal friend in an "open" competition, a choice which > she adamantly defended in a letter to _Poets & Writers_, I believe, on the > grounds that to her it was plainly the best entry. In the early years of > the National Poetry Series, four books were annointed outright by judges > who solicited mss. from friends and students -- nothing hidden about this > -- and only the fifth came out of a slush pile. Now supposedly all five are > the results of "open" competition. I see nothing morally wrong with poets > helping to advance their students and friends by making phone calls, > writing supportive letters to publishers, etc. Frankly, that's probably how > 90% of poetry books -- or any books -- get published. The crime comes > where you have 600-1000 folks naively sending in $25 checks on the > assumption that their ms. will be read and evaluated blindly, without > regard to who wrote it. I think that if any press or organization > sponsoring an "open" contest in which the judge picks a personal friend or > student gets caught (even if they weren't aware of the judge's dubious > action at the time), they should publish the book at their own expense and > refund the entry fees to the contestants. Otherwise it's a blatant > violation of trust. > > Just curious, Gabriel... are you planning to write an expose? I think it > would be terrific if you did. What the hell -- it's the Age of Lewinsky. > > -- Fred M. > > > >I want to compile a list of contest judges who have awarded prizes to > >their students. > > > >It doesn't matter if the judges are mainstream poets or otherwise. > > > >Someone who's very good at rewarding his students for emulation is > >Charles Wright. He's chosen at least two of his former students for book > >prizes (one twice). > > > >Heather McHugh has. Jorie Graham has. > > > >In each case I would like to know the name of the student as well as > >the name of the judge, because, as I say, some teachers have done this > >many many times. > > > >Would anyone know of others besides Graham, McHugh, Wright? > > > >Instances from previous decades? > > > > > >Gabriel Gudding > > > ******************************************************** > Fred Muratori > (fmm1@cornell.edu) > Reference Services Division > Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries > Cornell University > Ithaca, NY 14853 > WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html > ********************************************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:12:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:20:58 -0400 from Here's a brief rundown on the backscratch history: 1. Homer chose Virgil in an Epic contest even though he was his ephebe. 2. Walt Whitman was named "Poet of the year" in New Jersey by Edgar Allan Poe who was serving as manager of the Hoboken Blues ball team that year. Walt had been manager the previous year. That tells you something. 3. Emily Dickinson saw her future 20th-century publication history in a dream in July, 1863 (the battle of Gettysburg was going on at the same time). She mentioned it to her brother but never publicly acknowledged having a "spin strategy" for canonization. 4. Galway Kinnell awarded himself an award in a contest while wearing a "Galway Kinnell" t-shirt while visiting Ireland in the summer of 1987. 5. Henry Gould tried to find a friend to award the 1st Annual Nedge Nudge-to-Fame Contest but was unable to come up with one. I could go on endlessly - shows you the extent of something! - Jack Spandrift ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:24:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: more writing experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > Jonathan Mayhew's Writing Experiments (with apologies to Bernadette > Mayer) > > 3. Write poems designed for a particular magazine (a la Jack Spicer), > even if this magazine doesn't publish poetry. Send the poems to the > magazine as you write them until they either publish you are tell you to > stop. Forthcoming... 10 Haiku for Commentary "The Penis Sestina" for Men's Health "Ballad of the Litterbox Odor" for Cat Fancier 6 poems for the Sporting News, revisited "Epistolary Ode on the Dialectics of Obfuscation" for Poetry (Chicago) "Refusal to Mourn the Death, By Starvation, of a Supermodel" for People "Refusal to Mourn the Death, By Starvation, of a Supermodel" for Mickey Spillane's Mystery Magazine Dave Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 15:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MJ Devaney Subject: Re: Arts and Letters Daily Website In-Reply-To: <199809301545.IAA26230@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A new Internet source for news, thought, and opinion: ARTS & LETTERS DAILY This new website has been created for those are interested in the arts, ideas, and the humanities: http://www.cybereditions.com/aldaily --MJ Devaney mdevaney@inetnebr.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:23:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Brian Lennon Subject: Xenia 2: Call for submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *Call for submissions* _Xenia: A Review of Digital Literature and Art_ announces a call for submissions for issue no. 2, "Digital Poetics." The use of electronic networks to create and distribute electronic writing and textual art has already prompted formulations of a digital poetics, which incorporates elements of various print-based formulations of the twentieth century. With the World Wide Web becoming an increasingly less textual and more visual medium---"post-hypertextual" in the sense that hypertextuality now describes a reading environment that may or may not actually include "text"---the way lies open to a digital poetics that will also draw on various traditions of visual-textual art, from the experimental typography of early 20th-century avant-gardes, to later Concrete and other visual poetry "movements," to current experimentation with HTML-Java "kinetic" and VRML "virtual" poetry. Essays, reviews, electronic text/art works, and all uncategorizable combinations are welcome. Please submit by e-mail or by directing us to your personal Web address. Submissions deadline: December 15. submit@xeniareview.com http://www.xeniareview.com ___________________________________ Brian Lennon editor@xeniareview.com xenia: a review of digital literature and art http://www.xeniareview.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:32:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes i would like to mention that jack spandrift in fact DID nominate henry gould for nedge's nudge-to-fame contest, but henry said he would not be a member of any club that would admit him, or something like that, and refused the prize. there was a motion to award the award to george bowering instead, but spandrift said if henry wouldn't take it, he should get it himself. it got ugly, and last i heard, nedge was discontinuing contest. e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:59:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: Kyle's didactics / Rachel's energy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about all the poets who actually went to San Francisco State--though you'd never know it? During the reign of Frances Mayes (oops! did I say that in public?) the department did its best to hide its most interesting alumni. That's changing, however. Some hints: Robert Gluck, Mary Margaret Sloan Kathy Lou Schultz Laura E. Wright wrote: > > Jordan Davis wrote: > > > Also, with all this talk about didacticism and Kyle's enjoyable stance > > Rachel's wild funny thoughtful reading seems to have been set aside -- do > > writers come out of schools? Rachel seems recognizably _of_ Naropa, in that > > she's much more interested in accumulating energy than in dispelling it with > > asides and remarks, but there's critical thought along with the joy -- is > > this all hooey I'm saying? maybe, anyway, looking forward to further > > readings and writings from Kyle and Rachel -- Jordan > > Still here at Naropa, I have to say that Rachel's work is very different from > most of what goes on here. Rachel arrived at Naropa with her > wild-funny-thoughtfulness and took it with her when she left. Would that there > were a little more of it still around. But I'll take advice from her any day. > > Re. this idea of schools, I think a good school would be one that didn't produce > writers identifiable with that particular school. Otherwise, it's more like a > machine. > > Cranking out Naropa poetry, > Laura W. > > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * > "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:14:43 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacques Debrot wrote: > > On very short notice I've been recruited to teach 3 sections of Helen > Vendler's version of an Intro to Poetry course. My question is this: how do > I let students know about all of the poetries that fall outside of Vendler's > syllabus without alienating or appearing to propagandize : Art is propaganda--anyways-- but a more practical approach would be to start by asking the students to "define" what a poem is or might be-- that would lead you into the realm they exist in and see where you can make additions. Teach a text such as "Poetics of New American Poetry" --tho a dated text--worked wonderfully with my senior level art students one year. Ashbury, Olson, (KINGFISHERS!) etc. The idea is that since you are teaching--it IS proganda--and give yrself the evirons to know that! Todd Baron (ReMap) ps: The Objectivists and critical work on them would NOT be out of the realm and would NOT offend Ms Vendler--either.