========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 01:56:09 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gabriel: We keep the Pavement Saw Press contest entirely anonymous. All of the manuscripts are stripped of name address phone & publication credits and receive a number which is written on the envelope & manuscript. The top 25 are chosen by two readers other than the judge (except last year when everyone bailed). These are then mailed. None of the three winners so far has had a full length book out beforehand. The last chapbook only had two previously published poems. None of the winners had a poem previously published in our journal. None of the judges knew the winners. Josh McKinney could attest to this, he is lurking here somewhere. This says a lot to me about who would win if other contests were done this way. It also tells me that presses who aren't selecting a manuscript are committing egregious blaspheme. As for scandal, I need an anonymous e-mail address for ones which haven't seen print. There also is a whole other side to this situation which involves a shift in editorial policy that benefits University contests and a few others which is real ugly. I haven't seen any words mentioning this yet. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 01:25:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Levistky--O'Connor In-Reply-To: <361205B1.977BF16C@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Rachel Levitsky wrote: > >> For now on sexual love will be a matter only between women. The penis >> will be not more than an auto-erotic stand. > >I thought perhaps a hat rack. > >> Some men when faced with >> this new edict will augment their breasts and dress in a manner >> customary for women. Women will accept these men into their couplings >> only if they chose to refrain from making what is sublime grotesque. > >Damn! I'll miss you, George. > >> Use of the grotesque will be reserved for the naturally exagerated >> behavior patterns of those walking alone. > >And will be strictly regulated by the Ministry of Silly Walks. > >(the other) Rachel L. Dress in a manner customary for women? Most of the women I know dress in a manner that was once customary for men. What the heck do I do now? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:51:02 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Syzygy - another review Comments: To: poetryetc@listbot.com, british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for blaring my own trumpet a bit loudly but, for anyone who = might be interested, here's a review of my chapbook Syzygy which just = appeared in The Irish Review (once more published by Cork University = Press). There's an added satisfaction in this, since the redoubtable Edna = Longley has long been bouncer at this particular door, admitting only = those wearing a button reading "War Poet of Northern Ireland", or = genuflecting to the Heaney shrine tastefully placed just at the = entrance. She's still on the editorial board, but it seems her veto's = gone. (For her deeply pondered and astonishingly subtle view of "traditions = of Irish modernisms other than the Yeats line" see Keith Tuma's note = at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/documents/anglo.html) Incidentally, I believe the book is also available through Peter = Riley's distribution service in England. (Email: priley@dircon.co.uk) *** Purity and Dirt Alex Davis Trevor Joyce, Syzygy. Bray: Wild Honey Press, 1998, distributed by = Hardpressed Poetry, 37 Grosvenor Court, Templeville Rd., Templeogue, = Dublin 6W, (Phone (353) 21 456 3112). Ir =A33.50. One useful point of entry into Trevor Joyce=B9s challenging new = sequence, Syzygy, is "Chimera," from his 1995 collection stone = floods. The polyphonic "Chimaera" conjoins dialogically Richard = Lovelace=B9s self-satisfied, urbane wit, Aloysius Bertrand=B9s = apocalyptic forebodings of the levelling of all bounds, and the Book = of Lieh Tze=B9s acceptance of the provisionality of limits in nature, = the fragility of the ego and the interconnected diversity of the = phenomenal world. While Lovelace=B9s verbal ingenuity and = Bertrand=B9s nausea are aspects of Joyce=B9s writing from Pentahedron = (1972) on, it is the concerns of the Book of Lieh Tze which chime = most fully with those of his recent poetry, including Syzygy. = Furthermore, the complex structure of the two interlaced parts of = Syzygy recalls even as it excels the earlier poem=B9s utilisation of = the Japanese renga form, the latter employing, in the words of = Joyce=B9s note to the poem, "systematic ambiguity to chain together a = series of brief stanzas every one of which hinges both forward and = backward." In the case of Syzygy, systematic ambiguity derives, not = from a literary precedent, but from the method of composition = described in Joyce=B9s annotations to the sequence. In brief, the = "palindromic net," as Joyce felicitously terms it, is achieved by = means of a base text, now fossilised in the second part of the = sequence, that dictates the opening and closing segments of each of = the twelve units or "cells" of part I. Once those cells are = complete, their material, mediated through the controlling = procedures, determines the remainder of part II. Space prevents a = more elaborate exposition of the text=B9s structure: the interested = reader can consult Joyce=B9s notes for a detailed commentary. Of = greater importance, I feel, are the implications of this method of = composition for our response to and evaluation of this text. Its = formal discipline lies in the manner in which the originating lines = prescribe, to an extent, the remainder of the text. This approach, = of course, is not unique to Joyce: John Cage=B9s famous mesostic = texts, his "writing through" of others=B9 works, are generated in a = not unrelated fashion to Syzygy. Even in the context of recent Irish = poetry such avant-gardism finds a few--though only a few--parallels: = Randolph Healy=B9s Flame (1997), also published by Wild Honey Press, = is likewise constructed using chance procedures. In Joyce=B9s case, = the partially prescripted nature of the sequence is at one with = Joyce=B9s recurrent preoccupation, from Pentahedron to stone floods, = with bounds, order and, crucially, with their breakdown and = transgression. For, as Joyce=B9s notes confess, the symmetry of the = sequence is not absolute, there is a tiny flaw in the crystalline = structure; and it is precisely this alloyment that brings the formal = qualities of Syzygy into alignment with its thematic concern: the = relationship between conceptual order and the particularity of the = phenomenal world. In a manner reminiscent of Adorno, the text views = the former as necessary and inescapable, but stifling and ineluctably = involved with other, harsher kinds of domination: when the thieving that was well advanced faltered the imperial presence surveyed the ordered territories and declared in measured words nothing there is savage any more intelligence and griefs are tamed rage is reduced in parks only perhaps along the furthest bounds may be some dirt a little ghost and these are even as we speak contained in three quart jugs In these lines, Joyce brings together, with strikingly evocative = concision, colonial subjugation of land (in China and Ireland) = through force and cartography; a suppressive coercion that is closely = bound up with human discourse, the "measured words" "we speak." Such = subjection involves rejection, of the "dirt" or debris that refuses = to conform to the purifying new order. As Joyce acknowledges, this = dimension of the poem draws on the ideas of Mary Douglas, whose = Purity and Danger atomises the need purity has to reduce that which = it spurns to the non-threatening condition of rubbish, whether that = be conceptual or human detritus. Along related lines, a chief preoccupation of the poem is the manner = in which lived experiential time is abstracted to clock time, the = latter marshalling the former into "garrisons brief zones / of time = and influence": until the fixed mesh abstracts unerringly each hour with all its clamouring brood jerking routinely to the tune Yet the "clamouring" of reality resists the taxonomic mesh due to its = messy particularity, just as one=B9s lifeworld defies total = systematisation. Joyce conveys the resistance of dirt, in = Douglas=B9s extended sense, to purification through densely punning = lines, the ambiguities of which themselves emphasise the fluidity of = a supposedly classified, demarcated and regimented world: noise of concerns sequestered ultimately will get out states sundered bleed surely each to each by breaking bounds ghosts traffic through the empty squares Indeed, the very title word of Joyce=B9s text is ambivalent, = trafficking between two senses. Among its meanings, syzygy, in = astronomy, can signify either the conjunction or opposition of two = heavenly bodies. The strength of this remarkable poem lies in its = syzygetic nature; its close correlation of form to a content = preoccupied with the opposition that matter, of various kinds, puts = up to structuration. (That the word, in prosody, further denotes the = admixture of two feet in one metre is also of relevance to the = intertwined patterning of the poem=B9s two parts.) In these = respects, while Syzygy clearly grows out of Joyce=B9s last = collection, stone floods, it breaks new ground in the compelling = intricacy and moving urgency of its formalism. ***********************************************************************= *** Trevor Joyce Apple Cork IS&T Phone : +353-21-284405 EMail : joyce2@euro.apple.com ***********************************************************************= *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:43:58 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Syzygy - another review (another format) Comments: To: poetryetc@listbot.com, british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This is a resend, since I'm told the first version wasn't = sufficiently house-trained, and transgressed the bounds of email legibility . . . (If you got it legibly already, consider me grovelling.) As a matter of interest, the author of the review, Alex Davis, has = taken over the organization of the Cork Conference for New and Experimental Poetry, = which is approaching it's third occurrence. Next April is the likely date, I = gather, but anyone interested should contact Alex directly for details. (Email: = a.davis@ucc.ie) *** Apologies for blaring my own trumpet a bit loudly but, for anyone who = might be interested, here's a review of my chapbook Syzygy which just appeared = in The Irish Review (once more published by Cork University Press). There's an added satisfaction in this, since the redoubtable Edna = Longley has long been bouncer at this particular door, admitting only those wearing a = button reading "War Poet of Northern Ireland", or genuflecting to the Heaney = shrine tastefully placed just at the entrance. She's still on the editorial = board, but it seems her veto's gone. (For her deeply pondered and astonishingly subtle view of "traditions = of Irish modernisms other than the Yeats line" see Keith Tuma's note at = http:// writing.upenn.edu/epc/documents/anglo.html) Incidentally, I believe the book is also available through Peter = Riley's distribution service in England. (Email: priley@dircon.co.uk) *** Purity and Dirt Alex Davis Trevor Joyce, Syzygy. Bray: Wild Honey Press, 1998, distributed by = Hardpressed Poetry, 37 Grosvenor Court, Templeville Rd., Templeogue, Dublin 6W, = (Phone (353) 21 456 3112). Ir =A33.50. One useful point of entry into Trevor Joyce=B9s challenging new = sequence, Syzygy, is "Chimera," from his 1995 collection stone floods. The polyphonic = "Chimaera" conjoins dialogically Richard Lovelace=B9s self-satisfied, urbane = wit, Aloysius Bertrand=B9s apocalyptic forebodings of the levelling of all bounds, = and the Book of Lieh Tze=B9s acceptance of the provisionality of limits in nature, = the fragility of the ego and the interconnected diversity of the phenomenal world. While = Lovelace=B9s verbal ingenuity and Bertrand=B9s nausea are aspects of Joyce=B9s = writing from Pentahedron (1972) on, it is the concerns of the Book of Lieh Tze = which chime most fully with those of his recent poetry, including Syzygy. = Furthermore, the complex structure of the two interlaced parts of Syzygy recalls even = as it excels the earlier poem=B9s utilisation of the Japanese renga form, the latter = employing, in the words of Joyce=B9s note to the poem, "systematic ambiguity to chain = together a series of brief stanzas every one of which hinges both forward and = backward." In the case of Syzygy, systematic ambiguity derives, not from a literary = precedent, but from the method of composition described in Joyce=B9s annotations to = the sequence. In brief, the "palindromic net," as Joyce felicitously terms it, is = achieved by means of a base text, now fossilised in the second part of the sequence, = that dictates the opening and closing segments of each of the twelve units or "cells" = of part I. Once those cells are complete, their material, mediated through the = controlling procedures, determines the remainder of part II. Space prevents a = more elaborate exposition of the text=B9s structure: the interested reader can = consult Joyce=B9s notes for a detailed commentary. Of greater importance, I feel, are the = implications of this method of composition for our response to and evaluation of this = text. Its formal discipline lies in the manner in which the originating lines = prescribe, to an extent, the remainder of the text. This approach, of course, is not unique to Joyce: John Cage=B9s = famous mesostic texts, his "writing through" of others=B9 works, are generated in a not = unrelated fashion to Syzygy. Even in the context of recent Irish poetry such = avant-gardism finds a few--though only a few--parallels: Randolph Healy=B9s Flame = (1997), also published by Wild Honey Press, is likewise constructed using chance = procedures. In Joyce=B9s case, the partially prescripted nature of the sequence = is at one with Joyce=B9s recurrent preoccupation, from Pentahedron to stone floods, = with bounds, order and, crucially, with their breakdown and transgression. For, = as Joyce=B9s notes confess, the symmetry of the sequence is not absolute, there is a = tiny flaw in the crystalline structure; and it is precisely this alloyment that brings = the formal qualities of Syzygy into alignment with its thematic concern: the = relationship between conceptual order and the particularity of the phenomenal = world. In a manner reminiscent of Adorno, the text views the former as necessary = and inescapable, but stifling and ineluctably involved with other, = harsher kinds of domination: when the thieving that was well advanced faltered the imperial presence surveyed the ordered territories and declared in measured words nothing there is savage any more intelligence and griefs are tamed rage is reduced in parks only perhaps along the furthest bounds may be some dirt a little ghost and these are even as we speak contained in three quart jugs In these lines, Joyce brings together, with strikingly evocative = concision, colonial subjugation of land (in China and Ireland) through force and = cartography; a suppressive coercion that is closely bound up with human discourse, = the "measured words" "we speak." Such subjection involves rejection, of = the "dirt" or debris that refuses to conform to the purifying new order. As = Joyce acknowledges, this dimension of the poem draws on the ideas of Mary = Douglas, whose Purity and Danger atomises the need purity has to reduce that = which it spurns to the non-threatening condition of rubbish, whether that be = conceptual or human detritus. Along related lines, a chief preoccupation of the poem is the manner = in which lived experiential time is abstracted to clock time, the latter = marshalling the former into "garrisons brief zones / of time and influence": until the fixed mesh abstracts unerringly each hour with all its clamouring brood jerking routinely to the tune Yet the "clamouring" of reality resists the taxonomic mesh due to its = messy particularity, just as one=B9s lifeworld defies total = systematisation. Joyce conveys the resistance of dirt, in Douglas=B9s extended sense, to purification = through densely punning lines, the ambiguities of which themselves emphasise the = fluidity of a supposedly classified, demarcated and regimented world: noise of concerns sequestered ultimately will get out states sundered bleed surely each to each by breaking bounds ghosts traffic through the empty squares Indeed, the very title word of Joyce=B9s text is ambivalent, = trafficking between two senses. Among its meanings, syzygy, in astronomy, can signify either = the conjunction or opposition of two heavenly bodies. The strength of = this remarkable poem lies in its syzygetic nature; its close correlation = of form to a content preoccupied with the opposition that matter, of various = kinds, puts up to structuration. (That the word, in prosody, further denotes the = admixture of two feet in one metre is also of relevance to the intertwined patterning = of the poem=B9s two parts.) In these respects, while Syzygy clearly grows out of = Joyce=B9s last collection, stone floods, it breaks new ground in the compelling = intricacy and moving urgency of its formalism. ***********************************************************************= *** Trevor Joyce Apple Cork IS&T Phone : +353-21-284405 EMail : joyce2@euro.apple.com ***********************************************************************= *** ***********************************************************************= *** Trevor Joyce Apple Cork IS&T Phone : +353-21-284405 EMail : joyce2@euro.apple.com ***********************************************************************= *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:15:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Fwd: The Shadow University Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_907247712_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_907247712_boundary Content-ID: <0_907247712@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII hello all... has anyone read these reviews of "the best of its type since Dinesh D'souza's Illiberal Education..."? joe --part0_907247712_boundary Content-ID: <0_907247712@inet_out.mail.HUMAN-NATURE.COM.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay31.mx.aol.com (relay31.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.31]) by air07.mail.aol.com (v50.14) with SMTP; Thu, 01 Oct 1998 03:57:58 -0400 Received: from grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (grape.ease.lsoft.com [206.241.12.34]) by relay31.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id DAA21535; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 03:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810010756.DAA21535@relay31.mx.aol.com> Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (206.241.12.19) by grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1b) with SMTP id <6.F2FF16E8@grape.EASE.LSOFT.COM>; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 3:54:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:51:11 +0100 Reply-To: "PsyPhil Psychiatry, Philosophy and Society" Sender: "PsyPhil Psychiatry, Philosophy and Society" From: Human Nature Subject: The Shadow University X-To: Sci-Cult Science-as-Culture To: PSYPHIL@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Shadow University: The Betrayal of Liberty on America's Campuses by Alan Charles Kors, Harvey A. Silverglate http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684853213/darwinanddarwini/ At first glance, this title is just another entry in the roster of books opposed to political correctness at American universities, yet it's surprisingly good--certainly the best of its type since Dinesh D'Souza's Illiberal Education appeared in 1991. Kors and Silverglate are hard-core civil libertarians turned off by the "hidden, systematic assault upon liberty, individualism, dignity, due process, and equality before the law" that they describe as rampant on campuses. Theirs is not so much a brief against academic multiculturalism, but an eye-opening narrative about how the modern university "hands students a moral agenda upon arrival, subjects them to mandatory political reeducation, sends them to sensitivity training, submerges their individuality in official group identity, intrudes upon private conscience, treats them with scandalous inequality, and, when it chooses, suspends or expels them." Through well-told stories and anecdotes (including an excellent chapter-long sketch of the University of Pennsylvania's semi-famous "water buffalo" incident), Kors and Silverglate make their case and make it well. --John J. Miller From Booklist , September 1, 1998 Even chemistry majors are learning politics at American universities these days. But the type of politics they are learning does not impress Kors and Silverglate, since it entails the establishment of a left-leaning political orthodoxy and the systematic suppression of dissent. The authors document in alarming detail the Orwellian techniques universities now use to enforce conformity--vague and self-contradictory speech codes; secretive and arbitrary disciplinary proceedings; ideological indoctrination billed as sensitivity training; censorship of conservative publications and speakers. Besides shaking readers out of their complacency, the tales of abuse lend urgency to their call for renewed openness on college campuses. Only such openness, the authors warn, can restore the First Amendment rights lost to students and professors under the thumb of groupthink inquisitors. And because of the university's culture-shaping power, all of society stands at risk unless such rights are restored. Fortunately, the authors conclude their sobering diagnosis with a promising prescription of practical policies for academics committed to safeguarding campus liberties. So long as campus zealots wage war against independent thought, librarians will see strong demand for this book. Bryce Christensen Copyright© 1998, American Library Association. All rights reserved From Kirkus Reviews , September 1, 1998 Two civil libertarians take up the cudgels against political correctness in speech codes at American colleges and universities. Kors is a professor of history at the University of Pennsylvania who represented a student - charged with shouting the epithet - water buffalo - at members of a black sorority having a rowdy party in a dormitory courtyard - in his intramural battle with the university. And Silverglate is a civil liberties litigator and legal columnist from Massachusetts. They take the egregious ``Water Buffalo Affair'' of 1993 as the jumping-off point for a wide-ranging, detailed, and legally informed study of how universities and colleges supposedly ride roughshod over First Amendment rights in the interest of curbing hate speech. Their study, while often stimulating and revealing, undermines its own credibility with hysterical rhetoric: ``Universities have become the enemy of a free society, and it is time for the citizens of that society to recognize this scandal of enormous proportions and hold these institutions to account.'' How did we come to this desperate pass? ``Whole departments of the liberal arts have been given to those for whom the universities represent, in their own minds, the revolutionary agency of culture.'' Kors and Silverglate round up the usual suspects, but the late Herbert Marcuse - icon of the 1960s New Left - comes in for a special drubbing. With grudging admiration, they propose that his views on the limiting of free speech paved the way for Richard Delgado, Charles R. Lawrence III, Mari Matsuda, Catharine MacKinnon, and Stanley Fish, all of whom wish to curtail free speech in the interest of race and gender equality. The authors put academic freedom in historical perspective and offer illuminating observations about double standards and about the universities' relationship to the courts, but the exaggeratedly polemical posturing undermines the reader's confidence in their objectivity. While in many ways a fine and learned study, Kors and Silverglate's hellfire-and-brimstone sermon will likely be heeded only by the saved. -- Copyright ©1998, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. Book Description Universities once believed themselves to be sacred enclaves, where students and professors could debate the issues of the day and arrive at a better understanding of the human condition. Today, sadly, this ideal of the university is being quietly betrayed from within. Universities still set themselves apart from American society, but now they do so by enforcing their own politically correct worldview through censorship, double standards, and a judicial system without due process. Faculty and students who threaten the prevailing norms may be forced to undergo "thought reform." In a surreptitious aboutface, universities have become the enemy of a free society, and the time has come to hold these institutions to account. The Shadow University is a stinging indictment of the covert system of justice on college campuses, exposing the widespread reliance on kangaroo courts and arbitrary punishment to coerce students and faculty into conformity. Alan Charles Kors and Harvey A. Silverglate, staunch civil libertarians and active defenders of free inquiry on campus, lay bare the totalitarian mindset that undergirds speech codes, conduct codes, and "campus life" bureaucracies, through which a cadre of deans and counselors indoctrinate students and faculty in an ideology that favors group rights over individual rights, sacrificing free speech and academic freedom to spare the sensitivities of currently favored groups. From Maine to California, at public and private universities alike, liberty and fairness are the first casualties as teachers and students find themselves in the dock, presumed guilty until proven innocent and often forbidden to cross-examine their accusers. Kors and Silverglate introduce us to many of those who have firsthand experience of the shadow university, including: The student at the center of the 1993 "Water Buffalo" case at the University of Pennsylvania, who was brought up on charges of racial harassment after calling a group of rowdy students "water buffalo" -- even though the term has no racial connotations. The Catholic residence adviser who was fired for refusing, on grounds of religious conscience, to wear a symbol of gay and lesbian causes. The professor who was investigated for sexual harassment when he disagreed with campus feminists about curriculum issues. The student who was punished for laughing at a statement deemed offensive to others and who was ordered to undergo "sensitivity training" as a result. The Shadow University unmasks a chilling reality for parents who entrust their sons and daughters to the authority of such institutions, for thinking people who recognize that vigorous debate is the only sure path to truth, and for all Americans who realize that when even one citizen is deprived of liberty, we are all diminished. The author, Harvey A. Silverglate , July 12, 1998 At the end of the 20th century, something profoundly disturbing is happening to higher education in America. Universities now enforce a politically correct agenda through censorship, double standards, and kangaroo courts. Faculty and students who dissent from the new orthodoxy are stripped of their civil liberties, some even forced to undergo intrusive and partisan "sensitivity training." Universities have become the enemy of a free society. This book is a stinging indictment and exposure of injustices and coerced conformity on college campuses. The book explains the utopian and totalitarian ideology underlying the new speech and behavioral codes, a worldview that favors group over individual rights and that would sacrifice freedom and equality before the law on behalf of its political goals. The book also offers a legal, strategic, and moral blueprint for restoring liberty at our colleges and universities. The book exposes a state of affairs that will shock anyone who considers free speech, equal justice under law, respect for conscience, and fairness to be at once the foundations and bulwark of American liberty. The Shadow University: The Betrayal of Liberty on America's Campuses by Alan Charles Kors, Harvey A. Silverglate http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684853213/darwinanddarwini/ --part0_907247712_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:32:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: another course request In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" these defenses of poetry directly take up plato's challenge in is it republic 13, where he throws poetry out of the republic but says, if anyone wants to write a defense of poetry, which we all of course love, we'd be happy to reconsider. At 9:58 AM -0500 9/30/98, MAYHEW wrote: >Prose is indefensible. But seriously, I think Sidney and Shelley were >defending not poetry as a genre, or "verse," but poesie in a larger sense; >their defenses (or apologies) apply beyond what we think of as "poetry" >today. > >On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Susan Schultz wrote: > >> I'm doing book orders for a "Foundations of Creative Writing" course next >> term. I'm going to have students read some defenses of poetry, but I'm >> wondering if there's anything comparable for prose. Defense of Prose? Any >> good attacks on that genre? >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Susan Schultz >> > >Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:10:03 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: Re: more writing experiments Content-Type: text/plain >Jonathan Mayhew's Writing Experiments (with apologies to Bernadette >Mayers) ... >9. Take a book of poetry by someone else and compose poetic responses to >every single poem. Try this with a poet you hate and then with a poet you >love. Try writing your poems directly in the book, if you can stand to >deface it. 9 (b). Write a book of poetry using the same exact words as another. Use all of them as many times as the original. Really don't cheat, don't tell anyone what you've done. (I've thought to do this for year, with Paterson, would probably take years.) jperez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 07:02:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: New from Drogue Press & Niblock Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While I was in New York with Suspended Music, I received a great new book from Drogue, "Roots of the Moment" by Pauline Oliveros. It's a book of her poetics of composing & performing meditative musical works, but it has a tremendous relevance to the work of many of the writers I know of on this list. The book also looks great, with typography & design by Blair Seagram (is Blair still on this list). It's relatively expensive for a paperback, $35, but it includes a very good CD of several text-based horspiels (radio plays) along with the book. It was drop-shipped from the press, so the copies were literally the first available, but SPD will have it, if they don't already. Also, last spring, I think it was, the music of Phill Niblock came up here on the list. It was pretty clear that at least some people hadn't heard it, & didn't understand the problems of audience reception of the work. Now any of you who have RealAudio on your computer can hear it. I have a piece of his for eight tracks of trombones, programmed on Mappings, my show at Antenna Radio, this week (it'll be available from the Mappings archive page for a week after Saturday). The front page for Antenna is Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 08:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes In-Reply-To: <199810010405.WAA26856@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" it IS good to have Elilza back. And I agree about contests, too. But up here in Canada they are a great way to raise money for magazines (& get subscribers). And so may poets love them. Even if they ARE all equally good in different ways (& maybe they are!) But you're right about rleations between judges & winners. I like your morality on that one... Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 How, but thru a monstrous 'specialism', the so-called authority of erstwhile 'professionsals', have we come to leave _breath_ out of images and _images_ out of breath, anyhow? Roy Kiyooka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:11:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: more writing experiments In-Reply-To: <19981001141003.5466.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I tried experiment 9 last night with a book of James Merrill's that I didn't mind defacing: "In the Margins of _Braving the Elements_" Your competence does not diminish us, all too slick wearer-out-of-welcomes! * * * The brutal anecdote fades; manic or depressive, who cares? Who will remember to empty trash, to outdo a season of witless banter? * * * A brick fell on my head and I was none the wiser. I am the ungrateful one. * * * What elements are braved here O garrulous one? What would Kafka say? Newark Campus (Ohio) library withdrew this book. * * * Why do I withold my sympathy? I am mildly insane. * * * Tedium is good medicine but for what disease? If one man's meat is another's poison am I justified in feeding you arsenic? * * * Here is too much white space otherwise known as the unbearable whiteness of Nobel aspirations. Free us from our pretentions as we liberate others who pretend against us. * * * "Hang from (by) the neck until dead." * * * I am not being anti-intellectual here! You would know it by that stench in your nostrils, palatial, hermetic stanza. * * * A rich diet. How else to fend off famine? * * * Sneezes can't be "deflected." Read your Wittgenstein. * * * Must it come to this? The awfulness of the pun shames me. The exasperating reader closing the book. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:19:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: Dan Quisenberry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Baseball fans on the list with know that Dan Quisenberry died yestrday. A great relief pitcher on the KC Royals when they were champs. His wierd, loopy side arm fireballs matched his personality. Others may not know he was a poet. He had published two books "Down and In" and "On Days Like This" available through The Writers Place, 3737 Penna. , Kansas City, MO. He was quite active in the KC poetry scene and spent many hours in local library reading poetry of all kinds to school kids. A good guy. Jim McCrary PS..anyone know of other major league baseball 'poets'. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:30:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tristan saldana Subject: Re: Dan Quisenberry In-Reply-To: <91bac0b5.36139d80@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wow. I did not know this about old "loopy side arm." This is quite touching. I'm going to see if I can find any of his stuff. Tristan On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jim McCrary wrote: > Baseball fans on the list with know that Dan Quisenberry died yestrday. A > great relief pitcher on the KC Royals when they were champs. His wierd, > loopy side arm fireballs matched his personality. Others may not know he > was a poet. He had published two books "Down and In" and "On Days Like This" > available through The Writers Place, 3737 Penna. , Kansas City, MO. He > was quite active in the KC poetry scene and spent many hours in local library > reading poetry of all kinds to school kids. A good guy. > > Jim McCrary > > PS..anyone know of other major league baseball 'poets'. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:53:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: FW: Call for papers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable thot this may be of innerest -Pierre ---------- >From: Michael Toler >To: Pierre Joris >Newsgroups: none >Subject: Call for papers >Date: Sat, Sep 26, 1998, 12:16 PM > >Identity, Ethnicity and Origins >March 5-6 at Binghamton University in Binghamton, NY > >The conference will explore any issues related to identity, ethnicity, >and origins. Papers may relate to the general conference topic in an >interdisciplinary manner through literature, sociology, anthropology, >political science, film, art, history, philosophy or religion. >suggestions for panels or sessions are welcome. > >Abstracts of 250 words or less are due November 20, 1998. > >For more information see: http://www.geocities.com/collegepark/4248 >or contact: > >Professor Antonio Sobejano-Mor=E1n >Department of Romance Languages and Literatures >Binghamton University >PO Box 6000 >Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 >email: sobe@binghamton.edu > or cstiner@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Metcalf & Eshelman books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I'm passing along info on behalf of Rain Taxi. Direct all questions/orders to them. Ciao for niao. --Gary MERRILL COVE by Paul Metcalf Written in the late 1950s, while Metcalf resided in North Carolina, _Merrill Cove_, as remained unpublished until now. "We lived there for four years, and it was a significant period of our lives: the way of life, the writing, the warm associations with Charles Olson, Jonathan Williams, Black Mountain College. The Cove is what I think of when I think of North Carolina." THE ARANEA CONSTELLATION by Clayton Eshleman A stunning prose poem/essay, "The Aranea Constellation" is a newly completed section from Eshleman's 24-year work-in-progress, _Juniper Fuse: Paleolithic Imagination & the Construction of the Underworld_. Exploring the relevance of Upper Paleolithic cave imagery to 20th century crises, Eshleman here attempts to situate poetry in its oldest and deepest context. 28 pp. saddle-stiched. Editions limited to 300 copies. Send $5 each (plus $1.50 postage and handling) to: Rain Taxi, PO Box 3840, Minneapolis, MN 55403 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:27:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Portland Oregon Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A self-trumpet here: I'm Reading Powell's Bookstore, Portland OR Sunday, October 4, 7:30 pm 3723 SE Hawthorne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Prize competitions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As long as this subject has come up again, I'd really like to know how much money the various prizes take in in entry fees. If a prize-granting agency, whether press or honorary society, has to pay for outside judges I suppose it's alright to raise money from fees to offset the cost. I'm not sure it's ok to ask applicants to pay for the printing of someone else's book. And I am sure that it's not ok for a prize-grantor to make a profit on the process. There has been an enormous proliferation of fee-for-entrance prizes in the past decade. In theory there's nothing to keep any press from converting its entire manuscript submission and reading process to a series of contests--it would probably pay better than marketing the books. But judging and acquiring manuscripts and taking the risk of meeting expenses is what presses are supposed to do. And the cost of multiple contest entry, surely a form of extortion, has to be onorous for most poets, added, as it is, to the already hefty expense involved in becoming and remaining a poet. For the record, I've never paid to enter a contest because of my feelings about the ethics of the process. At 01:56 AM 10/1/98 +0000, you wrote: >Gabriel: We keep the Pavement Saw Press contest entirely anonymous. >All of the manuscripts are stripped of name address phone & publication >credits and receive a number which is written on the envelope & >manuscript. The top 25 are chosen by two readers other than the judge >(except last year when everyone bailed). These are then mailed. > >None of the three winners so far has had a full length book out >beforehand. The last chapbook only had two previously published poems. >None of the winners had a poem previously published in our journal. None >of the judges knew the winners. Josh McKinney could attest to this, he >is lurking here somewhere. > >This says a lot to me about who would win if other contests were done >this way. It also tells me that presses who aren't selecting a >manuscript are committing egregious blaspheme. > >As for scandal, I need an anonymous e-mail address for ones which >haven't seen print. >There also is a whole other side to this situation which involves a >shift in editorial policy that benefits University contests and a few >others which is real ugly. I haven't seen any words mentioning this >yet. > >Be well > >David Baratier > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Prize competitions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981001103835.009d5430@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" But Mark, this is so tricky. And no, I haven't entered contests, and Chax Press doesn't plan to hold one. But, how do you judge "the cost," if you say it's OK to pay for that. Do you pay the contest readers, and do you pay them a decent wage of $25 per hour or more? And if the people running the press are the readers, then what if they decide to put that money into the production of the book rather than into their pockets? How do you decide what's profit -- is that after salaries/fees/overhead/etc. are deducted? That said, I agree about the proliferation of fee-based contests. But I also think that if a press wants to sponsor a contest and wants the fees from the contest to pay for the publication of a book, that's fine -- as long as the process of the competition is fair. As to "judging and acquiring manuscripts and taking the risk of meeting expenses" being what literary presses are "supposed to do," I agree as long as it's not necessarily assumed that the only way of meeting those expenses is through the sale of books. In that regard, most poetry presses have an extremely difficult time, and many depend (and have depended, for decades if not centuries) on subsidies of various kinds -- whether it's donations from patrons, subsidization by the press's owner/directors, government and foundation subsidies, subsidies by poets published and friends/supporters of those poets, and even, in centuries removed from our own, subsidies from kings/queens/dukes/duchesses/etc. With such subsidies being increasingly difficult to find, and sales of books of poetry hardly able to take up the slack, I'm not at all surprised that presses are coming up with innovative ways of trying to meet expenses and publish books. I only get disgusted when such schemes are unfair, and when there are no other fee-less ways for poets to get published. But there are always ways, as the continuing emergence of new presses and journals (documented so marvelously on this list) shows. charles At 10:38 AM 10/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >As long as this subject has come up again, I'd really like to know how much >money the various prizes take in in entry fees. If a prize-granting agency, >whether press or honorary society, has to pay for outside judges I suppose >it's alright to raise money from fees to offset the cost. I'm not sure it's >ok to ask applicants to pay for the printing of someone else's book. And I >am sure that it's not ok for a prize-grantor to make a profit on the process. > >There has been an enormous proliferation of fee-for-entrance prizes in the >past decade. In theory there's nothing to keep any press from converting >its entire manuscript submission and reading process to a series of >contests--it would probably pay better than marketing the books. But >judging and acquiring manuscripts and taking the risk of meeting expenses >is what presses are supposed to do. And the cost of multiple contest entry, >surely a form of extortion, has to be onorous for most poets, added, as it >is, to the already hefty expense involved in becoming and remaining a poet. > >For the record, I've never paid to enter a contest because of my feelings >about the ethics of the process. > >At 01:56 AM 10/1/98 +0000, you wrote: >>Gabriel: We keep the Pavement Saw Press contest entirely anonymous. >>All of the manuscripts are stripped of name address phone & publication >>credits and receive a number which is written on the envelope & >>manuscript. The top 25 are chosen by two readers other than the judge >>(except last year when everyone bailed). These are then mailed. >> >>None of the three winners so far has had a full length book out >>beforehand. The last chapbook only had two previously published poems. >>None of the winners had a poem previously published in our journal. None >>of the judges knew the winners. Josh McKinney could attest to this, he >>is lurking here somewhere. >> >>This says a lot to me about who would win if other contests were done >>this way. It also tells me that presses who aren't selecting a >>manuscript are committing egregious blaspheme. >> >>As for scandal, I need an anonymous e-mail address for ones which >>haven't seen print. >>There also is a whole other side to this situation which involves a >>shift in editorial policy that benefits University contests and a few >>others which is real ugly. I haven't seen any words mentioning this >>yet. >> >>Be well >> >>David Baratier >> >> > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:24:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: my brief absence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fellow-Listafarians, Apologies to any back channelers who had their messages to me bounce back. I neglected to announce to the List that I was shutting down e-mail for a few days. I did not expect to be shut down quite so long, though. My stupefied server took 48 hours to restore service following my request. In fact, just now I got it back. I had been to Vancouver, Fri-Mon. I stopped by the bpnichol conference to watch and hear old friends discourse upon bp. The panel I was able to attend--I know you will correct me if I'm mistaken, George Bowering, as you were the Moderator--offered Frank Davey, arguing for a decent keeping apart of things vis-a-vis bp's poetry, cautioning against totalizing narratives of the oeuvre's meaning; and panel-mates Daphne Marlatt and Fred Wah cautioning against Frank's approach. I sat there and observed these young persons who can now nearly pass for old codgers and geezer-babes (a Sonoma County term, coined by one, so not found offensive here), recalling how Frank, seated once more, 37 years later, next to Daphne, nee Buckle, had prefaced his first book of poems, D-DAy and After (1961 ?) with Hopkins' "Buckle, and the fire that breaks from thee, then." Fred Wah was gracious enough to slot yours truly into the monster reading so I spent 5 minutes onstage. I remembered that Fred had published my first book. Merci pour ca, dude. The evening readings were often wonderful. McCaffery's nonsense rimes that insinuate so much sense; Wershler-Henry's tour de force of "ways to write" that goes around slamming all the doors opened by Bernadette Mayer's (nonetheless still handy) list, only to up the ante; Judy Copithorne's ad-libbed sentiments re the temporary closing of the passage of time ("I sat behind Fred in Warren's class--I memorized the back of his neck!"); Jen Lim's excellently choreographed performance pieces. . .I need to get some snailmail off soon, but perhaps I can return to the further pleasures later. It was well-attended, the evening readings particularly. Many of the best and brightest of Vancouver poetry were there, plus contigents from Calgary, Toronto, and Hornby Island (Hey, Billy!--Have I missed a report to the List, during my absence?) Glad to be back, and to find Rilke's translators still getting sorted out. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:29:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: Dan Quisenberry In-Reply-To: <91bac0b5.36139d80@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Though not written poetry, the remarks transcribed in newspapers, heard on radio and tv by Casey Stengal, Yogi Berra, Mickey Rivers and Joachim Andujar are famous for their malapropisms and surrealistic turns of phrasing, meaning, imagery and sound. (If you can find Casey's testimony beforew a Senate enquiry into baseball as a monopoly under anti-trust rulings--it outdoes W. C Fields and the Marx Brothers--) "When you come to a fork in the road--take it"--Yogi addressing college graduating class in New Jersey "Baseball can be summed up in one word: younevercantell"--Joachim --dbchirot Rube Waddell also is of legendary status in both malapropisms and bizarre behaviour on and off the field. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jim McCrary wrote: > Baseball fans on the list with know that Dan Quisenberry died yestrday. A > great relief pitcher on the KC Royals when they were champs. His wierd, > loopy side arm fireballs matched his personality. Others may not know he > was a poet. He had published two books "Down and In" and "On Days Like This" > available through The Writers Place, 3737 Penna. , Kansas City, MO. He > was quite active in the KC poetry scene and spent many hours in local library > reading poetry of all kinds to school kids. A good guy. > > Jim McCrary > > PS..anyone know of other major league baseball 'poets'. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:37:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Poetic cost accounting In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980930134930.006c1ca4@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If I pay $25 to have my ms. read by Charles Baudelaire, who had already decided to award the prize to his buddy Ted Gautier or his disciple Steve Mallarme, I would feel defrauded. If Charles pockets a fee of a couple thousand dollars for the difficult task of comparing me unfavorable to those already in his inner circle, this becomes an even greater scam. Charles and Ted both benefit at my expense. "Nice work if you can get it / and you can get it if you try." So to say that the entry fees go toward the expense of the contest, rather than the production of the book, is small consolation. I'm not saying I would never enter such a contest, but I'd have to be sure it was on the up and up. In a relatively small circle of poets, say those interested in "innovative" writing, the situation is even more tricky. After all, a typical MFA teacher could anonymously judge 500 mss. of more or less interchangeable material. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:41:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Prize competitions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980930134930.006c1ca4@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm imagining some of the better-known prizes receiving several multiples more in application fees than they could reasonably expect to pay outside judges. As to paying production costs from entry fees, that's like passing the hat while holding a gun in the other hand. Of course, it's easy for me to ride this high horse--I decided at the outset that Junction was going to generate a loss. It's why Junction stays small. As to subsidies, I'm all for them, but not from the pockets of poets entering a lottery. I'd love to meet a duchess, by the way. That's my last one, hanging on the wall. At 01:49 PM 9/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >But Mark, this is so tricky. And no, I haven't entered contests, and Chax >Press doesn't plan to hold one. But, how do you judge "the cost," if you >say it's OK to pay for that. Do you pay the contest readers, and do you pay >them a decent wage of $25 per hour or more? And if the people running the >press are the readers, then what if they decide to put that money into the >production of the book rather than into their pockets? How do you decide >what's profit -- is that after salaries/fees/overhead/etc. are deducted? > >That said, I agree about the proliferation of fee-based contests. But I >also think that if a press wants to sponsor a contest and wants the fees >from the contest to pay for the publication of a book, that's fine -- as >long as the process of the competition is fair. As to "judging and >acquiring manuscripts and taking the risk of meeting expenses" being what >literary presses are "supposed to do," I agree as long as it's not >necessarily assumed that the only way of meeting those expenses is through >the sale of books. In that regard, most poetry presses have an extremely >difficult time, and many depend (and have depended, for decades if not >centuries) on subsidies of various kinds -- whether it's donations from >patrons, subsidization by the press's owner/directors, government and >foundation subsidies, subsidies by poets published and friends/supporters >of those poets, and even, in centuries removed from our own, subsidies from >kings/queens/dukes/duchesses/etc. With such subsidies being increasingly >difficult to find, and sales of books of poetry hardly able to take up the >slack, I'm not at all surprised that presses are coming up with innovative >ways of trying to meet expenses and publish books. I only get disgusted >when such schemes are unfair, and when there are no other fee-less ways for >poets to get published. But there are always ways, as the continuing >emergence of new presses and journals (documented so marvelously on this >list) shows. > >charles > > >At 10:38 AM 10/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >>As long as this subject has come up again, I'd really like to know how much >>money the various prizes take in in entry fees. If a prize-granting agency, >>whether press or honorary society, has to pay for outside judges I suppose >>it's alright to raise money from fees to offset the cost. I'm not sure it's >>ok to ask applicants to pay for the printing of someone else's book. And I >>am sure that it's not ok for a prize-grantor to make a profit on the process. >> >>There has been an enormous proliferation of fee-for-entrance prizes in the >>past decade. In theory there's nothing to keep any press from converting >>its entire manuscript submission and reading process to a series of >>contests--it would probably pay better than marketing the books. But >>judging and acquiring manuscripts and taking the risk of meeting expenses >>is what presses are supposed to do. And the cost of multiple contest entry, >>surely a form of extortion, has to be onorous for most poets, added, as it >>is, to the already hefty expense involved in becoming and remaining a poet. >> >>For the record, I've never paid to enter a contest because of my feelings >>about the ethics of the process. >> >>At 01:56 AM 10/1/98 +0000, you wrote: >>>Gabriel: We keep the Pavement Saw Press contest entirely anonymous. >>>All of the manuscripts are stripped of name address phone & publication >>>credits and receive a number which is written on the envelope & >>>manuscript. The top 25 are chosen by two readers other than the judge >>>(except last year when everyone bailed). These are then mailed. >>> >>>None of the three winners so far has had a full length book out >>>beforehand. The last chapbook only had two previously published poems. >>>None of the winners had a poem previously published in our journal. None >>>of the judges knew the winners. Josh McKinney could attest to this, he >>>is lurking here somewhere. >>> >>>This says a lot to me about who would win if other contests were done >>>this way. It also tells me that presses who aren't selecting a >>>manuscript are committing egregious blaspheme. >>> >>>As for scandal, I need an anonymous e-mail address for ones which >>>haven't seen print. >>>There also is a whole other side to this situation which involves a >>>shift in editorial policy that benefits University contests and a few >>>others which is real ugly. I haven't seen any words mentioning this >>>yet. >>> >>>Be well >>> >>>David Baratier >>> >>> >> >> >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 11:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: that's my last ducat hanging on the wall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When I was still young and almost completely unknown, I entered a number of poetry contests. None of them required an entry fee. I won several, one of which resulted in my receiving an award from then-Mayor Marion Barry -- life produces so many rich ironies! Foolishly, I thought that such early success might make it easier to get my work published here and there -- As I grew older and more nearly completely unknown, I began to observe the geometric increase in the number of "contests" requiring growing fees -- I noted than only one or two of them went so far as to send a copy of the winning book to those who paid the fees to enter -- I had not the money in any event, and entered none of these -- But, having now read somewhat widely and come to recognize any number of names and styles, I observed that the judge, even in "blind" competitions, often seemed to have selected a winner whose work was previously known to the judge -- which is another way of saying that it was seldom the case that an exciting "unknown" was turned up by this means -- I was once entered into a contest against my will by a friend/editor after telling him I wanted no part of any contests -- but as he didn't charge me the fee I did not take it badly that I wasn't selected -- My advice -- contest everything -- in writing! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:07:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Garrett Kalleberg Subject: The Transcendental Friend, Issue No. 5 Comments: To: Poetics List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Magic itself, free of any claims to be real, is a facet of enlightenment= : its illusion disenchants the disenchanted world. This is the dialectical ether in which contemporary art lives as best it can." So wrote Adorno in Aesthetic Theory. The Transcendental Friend is trying to play its part. The Transcendental Friend, Issue No. 5, October 1998 http://www.morningred.com/friend Peter Constantine proffers a 1934 text by Haye Hinrichsen translated from the Hallig Friesian for a new section called Rosetta. Henry Gould, who earlier wrote on Vocation, now offers an article on Labo= r in this issue's Critical Dictionary. Built around an excerpt from The Black Book by Orhan Pamuk and texts by Leonard Schwartz, Heather Ramsdell & Joe Eliott, Camille Guthrie provides this month's contribution to Mote. The Bestiary, edited by Laird Hunt, features work by Dan Machlin, Sir Thomas Browne & Tim Atkins. Duncan Dobbelmann's translations of two works by the Belgian Paul Van Ostaijen are featured in the Report from Afield. Schizmata presents the first of three parts of a piece by Kevin Killian called "Cut." (Jen Hofer's translations of three poems by poet Ana Bel=E9n L=F3pez were slightly skewed in the last issue of the Friend, so we are presenting the= m here in a new layout in an Errata section.) The journal has been redesigned, in part to make it a little more printer-friendly (try printing a page from your browser; we're working on making print copies available - more news on this later in the month). Garrett Kalleberg B.D.W.P.H.G.S. Garrett Kalleberg mailto:editor@morningred.com The Transcendental Friend can be found at: http://www.morningred.com/friend ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:25:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: another course request In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII actually i think it is in book 10. k.h. On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > these defenses of poetry directly take up plato's challenge in is it > republic 13, where he throws poetry out of the republic but says, if anyone Erik Satie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:03:43 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: [Fwd: Booglit 5 out now (please forward this to more interested folks, thanks, David)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9ACF2331015728ED912485B5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9ACF2331015728ED912485B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fyi --------------9ACF2331015728ED912485B5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com([198.81.17.68]) (1217 bytes) by megsinet.net via sendmail with P:smtp/D:user/T:local (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:59:06 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #12 built 1998-Feb-6) Received: from Nycdak@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RXOJa02343; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Nycdak@aol.com Message-ID: <6cc28cdc.3613975d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:53:17 EDT To: wilcox23@Juno.com, baratier@megsinet.net, funkhouser@admin.njit.edu, NELSPAWS2@aol.com, ALTMANK@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Booglit 5 out now (plese forward this to more interested folks, thanks, David) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Booglit 5 out now, The Ginsberg issue, featuring four-color cover portrait of Ginsberg and new work by Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Barry Gifford, Allen's brother Eugene Brooks, Lee Ann Brown, Bob Holman, Bob Rosenthal and previously unpublished Ginsberg poem written two weeks before he died. Send $7 postpaid check or money order payable to Booglit P.O. Box 20531 NY, NY 10011 Attn: BL5 25% of profits go to Hare Krishna Food Relief, an organization feeding the hungry on New York's Lower East Side for the past ten years --------------9ACF2331015728ED912485B5-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:25:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Killian in The Transcendental Friend, Issue No. 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of humor (as we were before being instructed that it meant we didn't care about the Sudanese), don't miss the first installment of Kevin Killian's play "Cut" : "In Sumatra, we call 'theory' the juice of the rubber bug plant, and squish it out of tapir heads." http://www.morningred.com/friend/1998/10/pages/schizmata.html Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:03:51 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: Re: Teachers Awarding Students Prizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be interested to hear from Doug M. as to how Sun & Moon's process works for both the national poetry series and the new american series. The overhead has to be astounding. Mark, I was upset with how unethical contests are also which is why I set one up. We ask for $7. I pay the contest readers $250. I pay the winner $500 plus 25 copies. Every US resident who sends a SASE with $1.01 rec. a copy of the winner & other countries add a bit more. We are one of the only who continue this policy. The books have very high production values & are perfect bound so you need to add at least $500 to cover the number of free copies that are sent out. You get an idea of the minimum number of folks who have to send in just for me to break even. Then there's the whole cost of promoting the contest to add. The best way I know to be aware of the validity of the press if you are not familiar with it already is to add up what's obvious. For example, one contest asks for $10 for a chapbook contest & the prize is $100 & 25 copies of the winner. They don't send out free copies or subscriptions. The part they don't tell you is that they only do a press run of 50 to 100 copies. & they are publicly funded. Since their contest judge is paid $200, their whole cost structure would covered with forty entries, including cost of the book. That's taking advantage of writers. ^I'm not sure it's ok to ask applicants to pay for the printing of someone else's book.^ I disagree, mainly because of the way we do this. If you recieve a copy of the book, like the press, and want to support it anyways, contests give a writer a chance at winning an award for free, while supporting a worthwhile venture. Charles brings up some good points here: Do you pay the contest readers, and do you pay them a decent wage of $25 per hour or more? Yes. I can't expect them to do it for free. And if the people running the press are the readers, then what if they decide to put that money into the production of the book rather than into their pockets? We use volunteers & myself. It goes back into the book so that would be difficult to clarify as to where it fits now that folks are trying to get us money for the first time I'll have to work something out for that, thanks! How do you decide what's profit -- is that after salaries/fees/overhead/etc. are deducted? This is the hardest part. There is mailing out free copies to the judge, to people who do the blurbs, to helpers, & etc. The ads. The mailing of announcements & so on. I figure we break even and keep the press publishing by the exposure and orders rec during the process. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:08:08 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: visual poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think anyone brought this up during the visual discussion & I just stumbled along it. http://www.rediscov.com/sackner.htm Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:58:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: didacticism Comments: To: MAYHEW In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks all (Jonathon, Edward, Tom, Rachel, Jordan, and any I missed) for responding to the didacticism post..... (oh yeah, and henry). I don't think that "didacticism leaves no room for dialogue or ambiguity" (as Tom said) though. For isn't the very statement-- "poetry shouldn't be didactic" a didactic statement.... Sorry I am not responding more fully now---but I'm burnt out from too much adjuncting (perhaps explaining my interest in "didacticism" as of late, an attempt to adjust my aesthetics to my situation?).... Anyway, what to make of jordan's hairsplitting "moral" vs. "instructional" distinction? Can "complaint" or "confession" be considered "didactic"? Other questions abound, and keep one from sleep..... Is sleep didactic? chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: this is just sent to you for positive fun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII and to show you just how much everything i say is true, alan, just in case you thought it wasn't somehow and i was making it up *** STATE WEATHER WARNINGS *** NYZ067>081-NJZ002>006-011-CTZ005>012-012300- GHOSTS ENTER THE DOORWAY OF THE HOUSE LOOKING FOR WOUNDS. WOUND ADVISORY NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW YORK NY 224 PM EDT THU OCT 1 1998 WOUNDS ARE FOUND AND JENNIFER AND NIKUKO EMERGE FROM THEM. ...THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE HAS ISSUED A WOUND ADVISORY FOR THE REST OF TODAY FOR ALL OF SITHEASTERN NEW YORK INCLUDING THE NEW YORK METRO AREA AND LONG ISLAND...NORTHEASTERN NEW JERSEY AND SITHERN CONNECTICUT... JENNIFER AND NIKUKO ARE CALLED "ISSUANCES." "ISSUANCES" ARE DANGERIS BECAUSE OF THE PRESSURE THEY HAVE BRIGHT TO BARE. THIS INCLUDES THE FOLLOWING CINTIES... IN NEW YORK... BRONX...KINGS (BROOKLYN)...NASSAU...NEW YORK (MANHATTAN)... ORANGE... PUTNAM...QUEENS...RICHMOND (STATEN ISLAND)... ROCKLAND...SUFFOLK...WESTCHESTER IN THESE CINTIES THINGS ARE BARE BY JENNIFER AND NIKUKO "ISSUANCE." IN NEW JERSEY... BERGEN...ESSEX...HUDSON...PASSAIC...UNION IN THESE CINTIES "ISSUANCE" IS SLIGHT BUT NEWLY-VISIBLE. IN CONNECTICUT... FAIRFIELD...MIDDLESEX...NEW HAVEN...NEW LONDON WE JUST DO NOT KNOW THESE CINTIES. THREE DOTS INDICATE THE EXPULSION OF JENNIFER'S BREATH. A SPACE INDICATES THE EXPULSION OF NIKUKO'S BREATH. WOUND FLOW BETWEEN INTENSE LOW PRESSURE IN SITHEASTERN CANADA AND HIGH PRESSURE OVER THE GREAT LAKES WILL KEEP A BRISK NORTHWEST WOUND FLOW ACROSS THE AREA FOR THE NEXT CIPLE OF DAYS. "ISSUANCES" ARE FLOWS THAT VEER OUT OF CONTROL ACROSS LAND AND SEA. STRONG NORTHWEST WOUNDS OF 20 TO 30 MPH WILL CONTINUE ACROSS THE REGION THRIGH SUNSET...WITH SOME GHOSTS OVER 45 MPH. THESE GHOSTS ARE CAPABLE OF DOWNING SMALL BRANCHES AND POSSIBLY SOME DO-ROUTER LINES. AFTERNOON COMMUTERS SHILD BE PREPARED FOR THE GHOSTLY WOUNDS AS THE WOUNDS MAY BE STRONG ENIGH TO BLOW VEHICLES ARIND... ESPECIALLY HIGH PROFILE VEHICLES TO BE BLOW LIKE VEHICLES ARIND... "ISSUANCES" CAN ALSO VEER OUT OF CONTROL ACROSS MOUNTAINS AND VALLEYS. THE WOUNDS WILL DIE DOWN TO ABIT 15 TO 25 MPH THIS EVENING AFTER SUNSET...BUT MORE GHOSTLY WOUNDS ARE LIKELY TOMORROW AFTERNOON. "ISSUANCES" ARE WHAT WE CALL GHOSTS AROUND HERE TO PREPARE FOR THE BLOW. THIS WEATHER IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY "THE BLOW FROM ISSUANCE." __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 01:02:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: New at the EPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A note to announce recent additions to the EPC. These works are available by selecting "new" on the EPC home page, http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ and document useful new poetry resources made available through the web. We are pleased to make these available to you through/at the EPC ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Un bureau sur l'Atlantique Emmanuel Hocquard Eric Mottram (connect) Chain (connect) The East Village Poetry Web (connect) Xenia: A Review of Digital Literature and Art (connect) Combo (connect) Kathleen Fraser author page (Linda Russo, ed.) Harryette Mullen Interview with Griffin, Magee, Gallagher Grolier Poetry Book Shop (connect) Anglo-American Poetic Relations Report (Tuma) Wednesday at 4 Plus Fall 1998 The Politics of Poetic Form syllabus Bernstein Interview with Dana Luther, I & II (connect) Cyber Poetry Gallery (connect) Triplespace (Marjorie Perloff on Hank Lazer's poetry) Newark Review (connect) Passages 6 Tinfish #6 United Artists Books (connect) Witz 5.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Electronic Poetry Center http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:58:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: New Writing Series at UCSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NEW WRITING SERIES at UCSD FALL 1998 All readings take place at 4:30PM, at the Visual Arts Performance Space, located in the Visual Arts Complex, University of California, San Diego. ----------------------------------- OCTOBER 14 - BARBARA ANDERSON Born in New York City, Barbara Anderson has lived in Flagstaff for many years, where she teaches at Northern Arizona University. Of her most recent book of poetry, 1-800-911, Mark Doty has written "Barbara Anderson has transcribed the unmistakable latenight voice of America." OCTOBER 21 - STEPHEN-PAUL MARTIN Stephen-Paul Martin is the author of sixteen books of fiction, poetry, and non-fiction, including The Gothic Twilight , and most recently, Not Quite Fiction. Between 1980 and 1997, he edited Central Park, a journal of the arts and social commentary based in New York City. OCTOBER 28 - LISA JARNOT Lisa Jarnot has published four books of poetry and edited The Poetry Project Newsletter, among other journals. With Chris Stroffolino and Leonard Schwartz, she edited An Anthology of New (American) Poetry, published by Talisman House in 1998. She currently teaches at The Naropa Institute in Boulder, and is working on a biography of Robert Duncan. NOVEMBER 4 - ALFRED ARTEAGA A scholar as well as a poet, Alfred Arteaga has published three books of poetry, an acclaimed book of criticism, and edited An Other Tongue: Nation and Ethnicity in the Linguistic Borderlands . His House With a Blue Bed - a book of personal and poetic essays - was published by Mercury House in 1997. NOVEMBER 11 - GRADUATE STUDENT READING Graduate students will read and/or perform their work NOVEMBER 18 - JOHN YAU John Yau has published more than twenty books of poetry, fiction, and criticism. He is also the editor of Fetish, an anthology of fiction that was published in the fall of 1998. This year, he received a New York Foundation for the Arts award (NYFA) for his fiction. He lives in New York City, and teaches at the Maryland Institute. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:55:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Harpy from Tokyo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard a terrific band in Seattle from Tokyo called Harpy tonight. They fuse highly percussive jazz with rock and staccato Japanese influences. Their timing is complex and impeccable. Kyoko, the lead singer, is often instrumental in her vocals in the sense that rather than continuous drawn out breaths she is playing staccato notes with the other musicians. But she can also belt it out. They're a very funny band also, their music is often funny, I mean. They apparently check their email regularly. Evidently they are off to New York very soon and thence Michigan, and then to France. If anyone is reading this in the New York area or Michigan or thereabouts and is interested in getting a gig for them, I think you would find your efforts rewarded with a well-pleased audience. Two sources: BXF03053@nifty.ne.jp is Kenji Ito's email address. He's the drummer and writes the music. Some of their music can be heard on the Web at http://www.atom.co.jp/UNSOUND/Actual/Sound/UnpopOffice/Artists/Harpy/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:22:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Robert J. Tiess" Subject: Poetfest Press Release ~ Memories ~ Fall 1998 Poetfest Anthology, Vol. 5 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ P O E T F E S T P R E S S R E L E A S E October 1998 - The Fall Poetfest Anthology, Memories, is now online at the Poetfest website and freely viewable for all those interested. To access this collection, please go to http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7101 Poetfest collections contain works from English- speaking poets all around the world. You may read the current collection and submit material for the next anthology, Beginnings, due out in February 1999. Guidelines and submission form are available at the site. All poets are welcome to participate. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 04:45:50 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Judging Content-Type: text/plain Part of what amazed me most about receiving the Pew Fellowship for the Arts this year was that I had neither met nor ever corresponded with any of its judges. (I have subsequently met one of them.) But I must say that in a community that is as relatively small as the poetry scene, the idea of "blind" judging and the idea of "screeners" seems to me fraught with silliness. Too many places use the screening process incorrectly and I've heard too many judges moan about no good work got through. Possibly that's what happened to Merwin with the Yale this past year (Don't know for sure). Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 08:26:43 -0400 Reply-To: simon@home2.mysolution.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beth lee simon Subject: Countermeasures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone from Countermeasures is on, or if anyone has an email address for "them," please backchannel me. Thanks beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:52:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Naropa in NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Naropa Institute will be holding an open house in NYC on Wednesday, October 7 at the NY Shambhala Center, 118 W 22. Street, from 6pm - 10pm. Steven Taylor and Laird Hunt will be performing and reading; All are welcome! Any questions? Email me at lisa@naropa.edu or call 800-772-6951 for more info... We'll also be in San Francisco in November, with Bobbie Louise and Cassie Terman performing - as soon as I have dates, etc. I will send it out. Thanks, Lisa Trank ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 09:47:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <19981002114551.19427.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged friensa to submit work. At 04:45 AM 10/2/98 PDT, you wrote: >Part of what amazed me most about receiving the Pew Fellowship for the >Arts this year was that I had neither met nor ever corresponded with any >of its judges. (I have subsequently met one of them.) > >But I must say that in a community that is as relatively small as the >poetry scene, the idea of "blind" judging and the idea of "screeners" >seems to me fraught with silliness. Too many places use the screening >process incorrectly and I've heard too many judges moan about no good >work got through. Possibly that's what happened to Merwin with the Yale >this past year (Don't know for sure). > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:53:30 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Not Currently Subject: PSP Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit many asked for the guidelines, so.. --------------------------- The Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Award was established in 1995 to promote writers whose work challenges conventions of contemporary poetry while encouraging multiple readings. Writers world-wide are invited to participate. Each year, one manuscript is selected by a writer with a thorough familiarity of the small press realm. Publication, a prize of five hundred dollars, and ten percent of the book run is awarded to the winner. Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Contest $500 and 25 copies of the winning chapbook will be awarded for the finest collection of poetry received. Ruth Anderson Barnett will be the judge. Submit up to 32 pages of poetry. Include a cover letter with your name, address, phone number, poem titles, publication credits and a brief biography. Entry fee $7. Make all checks payable to Pavement Saw Press. All entries must be postmarked by December 20th, 1998 for consideration in this years contest. Each US entrant will receive a copy of the winning chapbook provided a 8 1/2 x 11 SASE with $1.01 postage is included, add appropriate postage for other destinations. All manuscripts will be recycled. Send all entries to: Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Contest / 7 James Street / Scotia, NY 12302 Be well David Baratier, Editor, Pavement Saw Press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981002094723.009da800@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Okay, I should temper the cynicism of my previous post by admitting to having received the same blind beneficence as bestowed by a NYFA panel as well. In fact, I heard that many years ago a NY State arts panel (it was called CAPS back then), rejected an application on the grounds that the work was too derivative of Ashbery's, only to discover later that the rejected applicant was none other than Ashbery himself. Though some may find that story terrifying, for me it's strangely comforting. -- Fred M. >I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never >met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged >friensa to submit work. > >At 04:45 AM 10/2/98 PDT, you wrote: >>Part of what amazed me most about receiving the Pew Fellowship for the >>Arts this year was that I had neither met nor ever corresponded with any >>of its judges. (I have subsequently met one of them.) >> >>But I must say that in a community that is as relatively small as the >>poetry scene, the idea of "blind" judging and the idea of "screeners" >>seems to me fraught with silliness. Too many places use the screening >>process incorrectly and I've heard too many judges moan about no good >>work got through. Possibly that's what happened to Merwin with the Yale >>this past year (Don't know for sure). >> >>Ron Silliman >>ron.silliman@gte.net >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:48:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Judging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Fred Muratori writes: "In fact, I heard that many years ago a NY State arts panel (it was called CAPS back then), rejected an application on the grounds that the work was too derivative of Ashbery's, only to discover later that the rejected applicant was none other than Ashbery himself. Though some may find that story terrifying, for me it's strangely comforting." This reminds of an article I read awhile ago in the _Times_ by a journalist who submitted under his own name, a typescript of Kosinksi's novel _Steps_ -- which had just won that year's National Book Award or something similar -- to a dozen major publishers, including the publishing house that had just published the book. Not only was the ms. universally rejected, but Kosinski's own publisher didn't even recognize it -- they turned it down for being too "experimental." As re Ashbery, he of course won the 1955 Yale Younger Poets prize after first having had his ms rejected by a screening panel. Auden, a friend, & that years' judge -- after learning that Ashbery had submitted a ms that he, Auden, had never seen, asked Ashbery to reapply. O'Hara, too, had had his poems sent back for having arrived late. Auden asked him to send along his ms as well. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:29:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was nominated & received a grant from a panel that included an acquaintance of one of my grad school professors. I didn't apply for the grant, but am I guilty by association? Seriously, though, Ron's comment seems sensible. This is a small community--even factoring in different "schools," so isn't it likely that if you've done a bit of publishing, there's a good chance that *someone* on a panel of judges would know you or one of your friends or your friend's publisher, etc. etc. etc.? -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, October 02, 1998 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Judging >I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never >met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged >friensa to submit work. > >At 04:45 AM 10/2/98 PDT, you wrote: >>Part of what amazed me most about receiving the Pew Fellowship for the >>Arts this year was that I had neither met nor ever corresponded with any >>of its judges. (I have subsequently met one of them.) >> >>But I must say that in a community that is as relatively small as the >>poetry scene, the idea of "blind" judging and the idea of "screeners" >>seems to me fraught with silliness. Too many places use the screening >>process incorrectly and I've heard too many judges moan about no good >>work got through. Possibly that's what happened to Merwin with the Yale >>this past year (Don't know for sure). >> >>Ron Silliman >>ron.silliman@gte.net >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:40:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:29:14 -0700 from On Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:29:14 -0700 Karen Kelley said: >I was nominated & received a grant from a panel that included an >acquaintance of one of my grad school professors. I didn't apply for the >grant, but am I guilty by association? That's clearly a different situation from a fee-based contest. The artist mafias who sit on panels will always know some of the academic mafias whose friends are artists. > >Seriously, though, Ron's comment seems sensible. This is a small >community--even factoring in different "schools," so isn't it likely that >if you've done a bit of publishing, there's a good chance that *someone* on >a panel of judges would know you or one of your friends or your friend's >publisher, etc. etc. etc.? > One can always hope so. It is a small cozy community. Little schools, swimming along in little pools, blurrping out their inky black squidpies. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:05:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Alfred Levinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know what happened to the poet Alfred Levinson after he published _Cauldron_ (James A. Decker Press) in 1948? The next book I see--which may or may not be the same Alfred Levinson--is in 1965. Then there's "Paris, lost and found" published by Poesie vivante in 1968. I'm looking for any sort of information about Levinson's work and life. If you have anything at all, I'll be grateful. Please write to me directly at afilreis@english.upenn.edu. Thanks. Al Filreis University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:51:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Off list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and off this address for a couple of weeks, but can be e-mailed at 7653092@skytel.com while gala touring the west coast if needed. Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Outlet magazine -- call for work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi folks -- I think I've posted this already, but--- Outlet (3) Ornament will include work which addresses fashion: ornament, the (synthetic) fixtures of the body, & the languages/technicalities of attire, both contemporary & historical. Deadline December 15, 1998. Outlet (4) Themeless, for a change, with a slight inclination toward maps & weather. Deadline June 15, 1999. Thank you. Please send a hard copy of your work and a brief (1-3 sentence) bio to: Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:02:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: first issue... new journal... ixnay Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm pleased to announce the publication of the first issue of ixnay, a new Philly-based twice-yearly poetry journal. The first issue features eight pages of a new serial poem by Joseph Torra, as well as hearty-sized chunks of new work by Anselm Berrigan, Barbara Cole, Buck Downs, Brett Evans, Greg Fuchs, Brian Lucas, Michael Magee, Pattie McCarthy, Jennifer McCreary, Carol Mirakove, Frank Sherlock, Chris Stroffolino, and Kevin Varrone. The issue is 61 pgs., 8 1/2 x 7, & staple-bound. ...all this for a mere $5, including postage, etc. Also still available are the first two ixnay press chapbooks-- Frank Sherlock's "13" ($5) & Pattie McCarthy's "Octaves" ($4). You can get both the journal & the chapbook of yr choice for $8, or the journal & both chapbooks for $11... Orders or queries can be directed to ixnaypress@aol.com... You're welcome to order now & pay later... Mail orders go to: ixnay press c/o Chris McCreary 1164 S. 10th Street Phila PA 19147 Checks should be made out to me, Chris McCreary... Thanks. & a brief shout out to any contributors on the list-- your copies're all going out in the mail first thing Monday, so heads up... Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:30:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981002094723.009da800@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never > met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged > friensa to submit work. Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, grants, etc etc. GG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:00:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That would of course be embarassing, and a violation of confidence. At 08:30 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged >> friensa to submit work. > > >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, >grants, etc etc. GG > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981002180055.009dc650@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1). Mark, Jeepers, I'd go so far as to say that what's in fact embarrassing is not frank open discussion about such matters, but the kind of casual and _sub rosa_ arrangements that ultimately wind up costing many poets time, cost of entry fee, cost of postage -- or, in the case of grants, the cost of the time writing the grant etc etc: 2). these being the very same injurious sub rosa casual arrangements that cause us to button-up out of some odd sense of guilty decorum, right? 3). It's often tough, I know, to separate guilt and complicity from decorum. 4). No high-horse is being sat on here: I have asked simply for a frank and disinterested discussion of these matters -- and a frank discussion would seem to predicate we not withhold names, yah? 5). You wrote "that would of course be embarrassing and a violation of confidence" (vide infra), but jeewhiz one wonders just how much this (dare I say priggish) decorous professional privacy has cost poets over the years, monetarily and otherwise. 6). Anyone care to comment? On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > That would of course be embarassing, and a violation of confidence. > > At 08:30 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never > >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged > >> friensa to submit work. > > > > > >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges > >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too > >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, > >grants, etc etc. GG > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 01:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Global Crisis (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Global Crisis "Worsening and Deepening" Guy in Belgium hacks his hedgefund, turns securities into Japanese pass- alongs, convert fast to Thai currency. Meanwhile Indonesia banks on Bra- zilian Amazon rubber; there's none left where this investment lies. New York City cancels World Bank loans to Kenya; key men in Afghanistan hold the landmine market in the hands of four, count them, Southern Indians. The markets creak, corrode; everyone skims from everyone else. There are no cracks, none, where everything is cracked, falling apart. It's a thick crust sliding everywhere across the rest of the world - not that they wouldn't loanshark if they could. It's an avatar crust, loaded with get- rich schemes, internets, intranets, movements of goods and currencies hard and soft, ploughing under whatever's left of wilderness. Everything turns towards management; management runs riot with Australian uranium, South American oil, Antarctica coal which has just finally burned the Ross Ice Shelf past the point of no return. Slaughter of the guilty takes the last remaining penguins; portfolios grow in the Hague, collapse in Norway, ex- pand in Belgrade. Russian stockpiles fuel Saudi hopes; missiles will take out the rest, but there's money to be made in charred remains. The Net creaks with deals gone bad, collapsing markets, currencies hitting rock bottom; starvation's kept out of it. The crust turns cancerous; cracks spread, whole chunks crash to the ground taking everything in their path. This is rough substance, violent, tumors raging within it, churning everything in its path. The crust leaks and topples; the rest of us would die for the same leprosy, local gangrenes begging for full-fledge suppuration. Maws open up; breath stinks of decay as Malaysian death squads swallow Eurodollars on spec, transform yen into Canadian dollars collapsing Peru- vian banks. New York wallstreeters gouge eyes, street-fight for World Bank loans passed on by baby crack whores sold by Serbian traders working out of Scotland. The British make the drug hard for Chinese merchandising; everyone swallows Vietnam. Bamboo run by avatars crosses the Atlantic and Pacific; Albanian finance terrorists are hung by their tongues from it. Colombian savings and loans fortify, warning off Greek mercenaries looking for an easy buck. The crust heats up; lava flows like shit from gaping crevices; French bankers lap it up, their faces burned to a crisp. Sales are up on the Net; Finland creaks, fucks itself, dies in ice, drowned in semen worth big bucks in Mali. Insane Mexican pilgrims carry gold from Fort Knox into North Korea; starved teeth break against hard yellow. It's worth it says the Web page. The crust shifts; Americans explode Bali, sell pieces of flesh to starving Israel and Iraq. Cash flows in big money veins; there's nothing stopping it. The crust turns incandescent, swallows the silver supply. Gangrene chews out arms and legs, cocks and cunts, chews breasts, tongues, blinds and deafens. Bodies for dividends are shoved into the shit. Crust burns everything. Planets wobble; the world splits, returning two for one. ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 23:22:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you want to talk further it will be backchannel. At 09:32 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >1). Mark, Jeepers, I'd go so far as to say that what's in fact embarrassing >is not frank open discussion about such matters, but the kind of casual >and _sub rosa_ arrangements that ultimately wind up costing many poets >time, cost of entry fee, cost of postage -- or, in the case of grants, >the cost of the time writing the grant etc etc: > >2). these being the very same injurious sub rosa casual arrangements that >cause us to button-up out of some odd sense of guilty decorum, right? > >3). It's often tough, I know, to separate guilt and complicity from decorum. > >4). No high-horse is being sat on here: I have asked simply for a frank >and disinterested discussion of these matters -- and a frank discussion >would seem to predicate we not withhold names, yah? > >5). You wrote "that would of course be embarrassing and a violation of >confidence" (vide infra), but jeewhiz one wonders just how much this >(dare I say priggish) decorous professional privacy has cost poets over the >years, monetarily and otherwise. > >6). Anyone care to comment? > > > On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> That would of course be embarassing, and a violation of confidence. >> >> At 08:30 PM 10/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: >> > >> >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never >> >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged >> >> friensa to submit work. >> > >> > >> >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges >> >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too >> >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, >> >grants, etc etc. GG >> > >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:27:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Third SVP Colloquium - PRACTICE - Bulletin 5 Comments: To: Will Rowe , Valerie Soar , Peter Daniels , Karolina Tworkowska , ian vickers , Diego de Jesus , David Miller , Bob Perelman , Alison K M Mark , british-poets , poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Third Sub Voicive Colloquium will be held at: Centre for English Studies, Senate House, University of London Friday 29th January 1999 * The Colloquium will focus and concentrate upon the practice of contemporary British and Irish poets. Suggested starting reference points will include: a. FOR THE BIRDS: proceedings of the First Cork Conference on New and Experimental Irish Poetry (26 April 1997) edited by Harry Gilonis, hardPressed / Mainstream 1998 b. WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY in verbal and visual poetry edited by Bob Cobbing and Lawrence Upton, to be published by Writers Forum in October 1998 c. OTHER: BRITISH AND IRISH POETS SINCE 1970 edited by Richard Caddel and Peter Quartermain, to be published by Wesleyan University Press in the winter of 1998 * Practising poets from Britain and Ireland will lead discussions throughout the day, as follows: Karlien van den Beukel THINGS TO DO WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS Ric Caddel WRITING RIGMAROLES Cris Cheek SKIN OF NOISE Trevor Joyce PRACTICE IN IRELAND Tony Lopez FALSE DATA Frances Presley COLLABORATION IN THE FEMININE Carlyle Reedy TALK IN PRACTICE Alaric Sumner STRADDLING LANGUAGE AND PERFORMANCE Harriet Tarlo Title to be announced Scott Thurston APPROACHES TO METHOD * There will be a bookstall running throughout the day, organised by Paul Holman and Bridget Penny. Further information on this and regarding timings and schedules; admission costs; and so on will be announced later. Trevor Joyce will also be giving a Sub Voicive Poetry reading around that time. Details will be announced shortly. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:36:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:30 PM -0400 10/2/98, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged >> friensa to submit work. > > >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, >grants, etc etc. GG i'm coming in on this late, and must admit to not having such a great stake in the discussion, but this starrish insistence on exposing details is unsettling and there is an imputation of bad faith i find disturbing. we all know writers function in small and overlapping communities. it seems a far cry from urging a friend to avail him/herself of an opportunity one knows of to "rigging" a contest. to invoke a parallel that i'm more familiar with, when a position becomes available in an academic department people routinely contact the good people they know in that field (which often will include friends) and urge them to apply. since these positions often draw several hundred applicants, it is understood that an invitation to apply does not guarantee a job, even when one's best friend is on the hiring committee. occasionally nepotism does win out, as in searches that are for inside candidates but that by law have to be nationally advertised, in which case, to be frank, openness was not at issue in the first place. these latter matters are indeed cause for some chagrin, but i don't really see how institutions could operate otherwise. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria Damon wrote: > > At 8:30 PM -0400 10/2/98, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never > >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged > >> friensa to submit work. > > > > > >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges > >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too > >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, > >grants, etc etc. GG > > i'm coming in on this late, and must admit to not having such a great stake > in the discussion, but this starrish insistence on exposing details is > unsettling and there is an imputation of bad faith i find disturbing. we > all know writers function in small and overlapping communities. it seems a > far cry from urging a friend to avail him/herself of an opportunity one > knows of to "rigging" a contest. to invoke a parallel that i'm more > familiar with, when a position becomes available in an academic department > people routinely contact the good people they know in that field (which > often will include friends) and urge them to apply. since these positions > often draw several hundred applicants, it is understood that an invitation > to apply does not guarantee a job, even when one's best friend is on the > hiring committee. occasionally nepotism does win out, as in searches that > are for inside candidates but that by law have to be nationally advertised, > in which case, to be frank, openness was not at issue in the first place. > these latter matters are indeed cause for some chagrin, but i don't really > see how institutions could operate otherwise. I was holding back from this discusion but I too have recieved grants in the past and I have always gotten them as special favors to me in other words as straight economic and political quid pro quos. The best deal was the one I struck with Exxon right after the Valdez spill. They had just initiated their POETS, VOX POPULI campaign and you can bet your sweet ass I wanted a taste of that $440,000,000.00 pot. I had provided some forged end user certificates to a group of mercenaries in Angola to purchase weapons for Savimbi, so the boys at Exxon, who were trying to shove out Gulf and Royal Dutch Shell in the region, owed me one. But to get my grant money, I had to fuck the entire board of directors and their chauffeurs. Actually, this wasn't so bad because those suits are really in touch with their bodies. Anyway, that's my confession. I hope you won't think any less of me.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:03:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > At 8:30 PM -0400 10/2/98, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > >> I, too, received a grant (from NY state) from a panel of judges I had never > >> met. On the other hand, I know of several cases in which judges have urged > >> friensa to submit work. > > > > > >Mark, could I trouble you to actually _list_ the cases in which judges > >solicited or "urged" work from friends? -- assuming that wouldn't be too > >embarrassing for anyone. I'm interested in specific names, contests, > >grants, etc etc. GG > > i'm coming in on this late, and must admit to not having such a great stake > in the discussion, but this starrish insistence on exposing details is > unsettling and there is an imputation of bad faith i find disturbing. we > all know writers function in small and overlapping communities. it seems a > far cry from urging a friend to avail him/herself of an opportunity one > knows of to "rigging" a contest. to invoke a parallel that i'm more > familiar with, when a position becomes available in an academic department > people routinely contact the good people they know in that field (which > often will include friends) and urge them to apply. since these positions > often draw several hundred applicants, it is understood that an invitation > to apply does not guarantee a job, even when one's best friend is on the > hiring committee. occasionally nepotism does win out, as in searches that > are for inside candidates but that by law have to be nationally advertised, > in which case, to be frank, openness was not at issue in the first place. > these latter matters are indeed cause for some chagrin, but i don't really > see how institutions could operate otherwise. a.) Again I'm not insisting folks operate otherwise: I'm not talking about jobs gotten via contacts or mutual second parties. b.) Am talking about prizes and competitions and the act of judging, and the tip of the hat that many of these competitions make to ensure a sense not only of "fairness" but of "possibility": namely blind-reading, -- and how curiously that practice compares to the recently stated idea that what we have here is a small community which cannot help but be governed by bias and personal taste and reputation. c.) Kenneth Starr has too many double consonants in his name to have anything but a duplicitous character: I am however not a muckraker. My interest is that of a mildly stupid arriviste -- nothing more. d.) There have been previous testimonies on this list about how the above prob is both frustrating and curious. e.) The implication that my interest shows bad faith is half-goofy, therefore: I'm talking about "open" competitions and prizes and prize money and "judges" (not _colleagues_). These are questions everyone has thought about and that everyone has spoken about: nothing muckrakey about any of this, nothing starry either. Am not starry-eyed or muck-booted, am curious. f.) If my questions make anyone feel icky, I apologize: were not asked in bad faith but out of more or less innocent curiosity. g.) I miss my grandmother. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:04:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: forward from the nettime announcer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:28:52 +0100 From: paragram@gmx.net (Florian Cramer) Subject: Announcing Finnegans Wake-based text recombination machine "Here Comes Everybody - A Continuarration of/on Finnegans Wake" This machine generates new words and new narratives from the text of "Finnegans Wake" by recombining its syllables. Every word is a cross-reference which, once you follow it, reorganizes the text and recombines it according to syllable patterns. New narratives result, and new portmanteau words not to be found in Joyce's text. A deep recursion into James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. Potential texts of Finnegans Wake may perpetually be read here. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:38:31 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: forward from the nettime announcer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit miekal and wrote: > > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:28:52 +0100 > From: paragram@gmx.net (Florian Cramer) > Subject: Announcing Finnegans Wake-based text recombination machine > > "Here Comes Everybody - A Continuarration of/on Finnegans Wake" > > > This machine generates new words and new narratives from the text of > "Finnegans Wake" by recombining its syllables. > > Every word is a cross-reference which, once you follow it, reorganizes > the > text and recombines it according to syllable patterns. New narratives > result, and new portmanteau words not to be found in Joyce's text. > > A deep recursion into James Joyce's Finnegans Wake. Potential texts of > Finnegans Wake may perpetually be read here. And whart a surd letthel shight it ys. Hirp! Hirp! for their Missed Understandings! chirps the Ballat of Perce-Oreille.---j.j. ---carlo parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 08:40:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Where is Tom Raworth In-Reply-To: <199810022105.RAA94120@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII WWe're trying to locate Tom Raworth. Sent an e-mail, which hasn't been answered. Does anyone know where he currently is and how he can be reached. Please back-channel. Paul Hoover ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 11:42:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find this whole discussion fascinating--and I don't think it's unsettling for GG to be asking such questions. If, in fact, some judges or hiring committees or grant panels are asking friends to submit because this or that friend also just happens to be a really terrific poet, then why not expose the fact that the judge/panel etc and the candidate are friends? In other words, if a teacher asks his/her student to submit simply because the student is good--and the student is indeed "good"--then why would the teacher or student be embarrassed about the nepotism? I, personally, think that yes, some of the nepotism in poetry is kind of okay... it has something to do with community and with shared aesthetic considerations and, perhaps, with a sweet sort of "personism".... but I also think that a lot of the big prizes are in fact scams. The fact that there are so many of them is what strikes me as a scam... why is it that almost no press will publish a writer's first book unless the writer pays in $10-$25? Best, Katy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: contests in a world, not a hotel room i don't think asking these questions is at ALL muckraking, or starry eyed. a statement that keeps coming up time and time again is in part just exactly what makes me queasy. everyone keeps coming back to "it is a small community; everyone knows someone" in one way or another. well, it is NOT a small community. i've been helping edit, for example, a small, not wildly famous 'ezine for a couple of years. every month, we get wonderful work from people and places we've NEVER heard of before. people who are not online, have not been published anywhere. it is a HUGE community, with people from ALL OVER who are writing in tiny towns dotting the west, midwest, east, north, south, alaska, hawaii, japan, tibet. for just ONE example, has anyone on this list heard of carmen butcher? i would absolutely guarantee not. well, carmen is an extraordinary writer who popped up on my screen with submissions (you can see her work in the memory issue of the free cuisinart, as well as in upcoming Extended Play issue) a few months ago. she has interesting credentials -- fullbright in english at oxford, lit degree. but, NO ONE HAD HEARD OF HER. and i think we are the first people to publish her. small community BULLWAH! it is a small community when we shut it down to new people who don't know anyone. it is a small community when grants are given to our friends, and we can't be bothered to read through any other work that got sent in. it is a small community when we only send word about grants, and magazines, and submission opportunities to our friends, instead of taking out ads in community newspapers, sending things on multi-subscriber lists, posting notices on bulletin boards all over the web, sending notices to english departments in community colleges, state schools, universities, AND tiny art centers in tiny towns dotting the all over. another example: an online zine, Tintern Abbey. the proprieter, chris tannlund, spent months posting notice of the zine everywhere he could think of. he received hundreds of submissions, many from people he'd NEVER heard of as well as a number he had. years back, i was a totally broke, shy, new writer. i submitted to contests, magazines, reading series, mfa programs, conferences and workshops galore... but... i didn't know anyone. i hadn't BEEN at those mfa programs, READ at those reading series, hung out at those conferences with those Big Names. so i didn't have any Big Names to write the "recommendation letters" many venues overtly requested. or have a word with any of the judges. or let anyone in the department know i was a "strong candidate." and for the most part, i got trashed. shitpiled. who was i, some nobody from the midwest? who cares about her. but those very departments, contests, reading series, etc. more often than not got their funding, waved flags about, bragged over, how they were "famous" because of all the "new writers" that came from there. new writers? baloney. writers that "knew" someone in the "small" community that was all they were open to. certainly not the shitpile of writers from tuckahoe tennessee who couldn't muster anyone famous for a golden signature letter, those pathetic writers who really were dumb enough to BELIEVE the "open to anyone" written on the promotion materials, who were dumb enough to believe that if you send off a group of 5 or 7 or 12 of your best poems or stories, that will be what weighs with the judges, or readers, or whatever for that mfa, or contest, or grant. now i finally HAVE a 'zine of my own, and the zine (in part because of web and search engine dynamics) really IS open. and we advert in unfamiliar and wierd places as well as known ones. and we have a rule that each editor doesn't make decisions on work from people they know. we also solicit, sometimes from our "friends." but we both also make a point of searching out and finding complete strangers on the web to ask for work from. i'd bet alot of people on this list have gone through the same thing. i know i've been seeing promos for new mags, small presses, etc. and they often have names i have never heard of before, names of people appearing for first time, often first time ever, not just in that zine or venue. so alot of us are doing what i do -- where are all of you? you know, from your own experience, that this does not have to be a small community. can you talk about how you opened your contests, presses, magazines, reading series, grant panels, to work from people you DIDN'T know, to the BIG world outside the small one? ps. AND how you opened your lists (like poetics)? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:12:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: 'judging' contests in a world, not a hotel room MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a member of the shitpile of writers from tuckahoe tennessee (actually Murfreesboro, believe it or not) I do appreciate the numerous calls for work and opportunities to discuss issues on this list. I can to some degree participate even though I don't dwell in the right circles, if there are, in fact, right circles. tom bell Eliza McGrand wrote: > > i don't think asking these questions is at ALL muckraking, or starry eyed. > a statement that keeps coming up time and time again is in part just exactly > what makes me queasy. everyone keeps coming back to "it is a small community; > everyone knows someone" in one way or another. > > well, it is NOT a small community. -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:39:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" to the question of small vs. large communities (due allowances for "large" and "small"): both exist, and there are reasons why both should exist... the former works differently than the latter, and we might go on and on as to which is "better," we might propose a continuum from small to large, etc... but from an academic['s] standpoint: here we go, from a *current* mla job list opening in creative writing (mla now offers the list online)---i'll keep the name of the institution out of it simply b/c my point is not to target specific schools: >applicants should show evidence of outstanding promise (a book/prominent >>magazine publications, prizes, good teaching, and strong academic >interests). we all know that prizes are occasionally given to stuff that comes in over the transom... however, and at the same time, i assure you that the above institution is likely to privilege applicants whose book is on a "national press" (a term used all the time in the mla job lists) and whose prizes are themselves known quantities---this is, in general, what constitutes "promise"... which is to say, that if the question of prizes reduces to being properly connected, it's a bit of a sham, no?... it's one thing to interview someone b/c someone else vouches for their character... it's another to set up a networking-structure that permits only such & such ethnicities, or such and such awards, into the mix... and yes---the "letters of recommendation" requirement can work in precisely this way---if we let it... i'm not suggesting, btw, that awards are as crucial as ethnicities... and i don't generally trust institutional structures that are geared toward separating the "good" dozen applicants from the "less good" or "outright bad" 200 or so (my way of making a political-economic point, if you will)... favorites will be played, no doubt, simply b/c there aren't enough goodies to go around... on this basis i would suggest that the only thing keeping the game "honest" is one's (and two's) commitment to giving each and all an open and fair hearing (i.e., not to discard applications from those with small press publications, those who wear high-top sneakers ETC.---and if you ain't see this done, you're not living on my planet)... that said: what frustrates me most about the awards network is the general sort of writerly ethos it helps proliferate... yknow---you get your mfa (or whatever), then you busy yourself first and foremost getting your work placed in the "best" magazines and journals... and then---when you have a sufficient accumulation of new work---you circulate your manuscript through the awards circuit... for some writers i know---some of whom are dear friends, some of whom are fine writers---this constitutes their most urgent sense of their professional-writerly selves... this is the way they've learned the "trade," their "craft," ETC... i don't have to indicate why this is such---or can be such---a bad thing, do i?... sure, there are exceptions too... but my point here is that, *however* such awards are judged (and i've got one small award myself on my vita---2nd place for the first poem i ever published---entirely over the transom), this matter of making writers dance through such hoops as a primary part of their professional development, as a primary part of how they come to the act of writing and publishing, leaves a helluvalot to be desired... assuming, that is, that the community in which said writers work, which includes of course a working sense of community, works something like that job ad (above)... and then, hey, we're back to the community issue, no?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:54:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > this matter of making writers dance through such hoops as a > primary part of their professional development, as a primary part of how > they come to the act of writing and publishing, leaves a helluvalot to be > desired... It certainly does, but we also have to remember that the hoops are for those who want to pursue that kind of *professional* development, which is different for many of us from our *writerly* development. They seem like two different jobs. Some people pursue one or the other, and some pursue both. I think there's a sense that those who pursue the professional trappings are somehow less "pure" than those who don't. But what's wrong with someone doing the whole national publisher/award/nepotism circuit if it suits them? To think that the high-top crowd loses out on something because there are all these credentialed professional poets out there seems silly. Harvard isn't going to hire someone with a single chapbook to their credit, no matter *how* good the chapbook is. Not because Harvard is evil, but because it's a business. And I can't help but wonder with amusement if perhaps one reason there's such a call for those with heavy, specifically national publishing credits isn't because the university's don't know *how* to judge poetry, and figure they'd better go with someone someone else has recognized. The cover your ass factor seems high. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <361680E3.C6D2AEF0@bayarea.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" karen, i think what you say is true... still, i find much to lament in the way many come to this... profession!... b/c in the end, it's not that we couldn't all use a pat on the back---it's that the system (and all said and done, i think there IS one, professionally speaking) will eats its young... i mean to say that this is where institutional politics square off, for one, against aesthetics... and given the once and future economics of the postsecondary teaching profession (my remarks are not aimed at reducing the discussion to same), it seems to me that those who opt to "play" themselves thataways are feeding the system (i.e., the one that eats its young)... which isn't to say that if you win an award, you should feel "guilty" or some such... but i am saying---yes i am---that i expect better---yes i do---and i expect better even from those who've proved successful playing that game... i expect those who've been that lucky, or that single-minded, NOT (e.g.) to evaluate me as a writer on the basis of NOT having taken that path... i'll try to do the same---ONCE i see an mla job ad that reads approx. "must have publications, small press writers welcome" and ysee, my hunch is---based in everything i've seen in this profession---that i'm asking a lot... b/c the sort of commitment it takes to propel you in said professional directions is substantial---and generally requires that you act in kind... as to harvard being evil (sans religious connotations): well yes and no, as with most institutions... some are less evil than others, but most seem to promote a certain level of evil, as well as good (which isn't to ignore that a given institution might be primarily evil or primarily good or whatever)... but when harvard does evil or good---harvard, the most heavily endowed university in the u.s.---well, you can expect to hear about the good, right?... and i think we might oughta consider worrying over that evil... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <361680E3.C6D2AEF0@bayarea.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Karen--I think your last paragraph is, like the brits say, spot on. But I have some problems with your second. Sure, it's two different jobs, and some are disinclined or less able to perform the "professional" one. Something--a lot--is lost, however, in the foregrounding of that task. Some of the high-top crowd have included, say, Blake, Clare, Leopardi, Dickinson, Niedecker, and, until recently, virtually everyone in Don Allen's anthology (I could tell you what kind of reception my teaching Olson at Columbia got in 1968). Can you imagine Harvard's reaction to Blake's job application? "Self-publishes, small-press only, and a bit eccentric." At 12:54 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >> this matter of making writers dance through such hoops as a >> primary part of their professional development, as a primary part of how >> they come to the act of writing and publishing, leaves a helluvalot to be >> desired... > >It certainly does, but we also have to remember that the hoops are for those >who want to pursue that kind of *professional* development, which is different >for many of us from our *writerly* development. > >They seem like two different jobs. Some people pursue one or the other, and >some pursue both. I think there's a sense that those who pursue the >professional trappings are somehow less "pure" than those who don't. But what's >wrong with someone doing the whole national publisher/award/nepotism circuit if >it suits them? To think that the high-top crowd loses out on something because >there are all these credentialed professional poets out there seems silly. >Harvard isn't going to hire someone with a single chapbook to their credit, no >matter *how* good the chapbook is. Not because Harvard is evil, but because >it's a business. > >And I can't help but wonder with amusement if perhaps one reason there's such a >call for those with heavy, specifically national publishing credits isn't >because the university's don't know *how* to judge poetry, and figure they'd >better go with someone someone else has recognized. The cover your ass factor >seems high. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 14:07:54 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Where is Tom Raworth Content-Type: text/plain Got an email from Tom about 10 days ago. He was in Capetown, South Africa at the time, Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:13:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Judging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" oh hell, and while i'm here, i may as well admit to that wee bit of confrontational rhetoric in my last post... i was trying to say that i try not to judge too harshly those who tend to judge too harshly... but that, at times, i find it real fucking tough... and really: it's difficult for me to sit across the table from a "mainstream" writer whose work i admire, while he bashes the very work that i cherish---by association bashing my work... esp. when the entire publishing apparatus he so values is implicitly and explicitly oriented toward sanctioning his work and not mine... (please to insert appropriate pronouns for "he" and "his" and "i" and "my" and "mine")... those in positions of power should be held accountable---by who else? but by those NOT in positions of power... harvard, e.g., is a case in point... clinton is another (which is not to say that i think he should resign, btw)... and on a related note: i must confess that the contest circuit has really become nauseating to me... last time i browsed through the awp chronicle (yes, i'm a member) i saw a "potluck" contest (i sincerely hope i'm not trampling over anyone's feelings here)... it struck me as, well, so precious, yknow---but i really can't imagine it emerging from any but the most privileged notions of authorship and publication... ysee you say these things aloud, you get yourself in trouble... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:22:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Judging In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some of us need money just to survive and we are quite isolated. And there is no money or just not enough. So a grant and a contest can be a big thing. And if we do not belong to a circuit or a group at all the chance is we will holler in the wind if we apply for such a grant and a contest. This is just so evident it hardly needs to be said. There are no verifying principles in the arts and we tend most often but not all of us to cluster and influence each other. So of course we will give a money and a prize to those of our friends who we find when we are on committee. This is so natural it hardly needs to be said. But some of us are just so isolated that we can be published because there is room for that but in a grant and a contest there is no room because it is easier to find magazine room than grant room. So we will be published but we will just never have enough money for anything. This is always the case of the world and while I do not like it and even suffer from it, I must say to my friends when they ask, this is always the case of the world. Now I will go play. - Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:35:37 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I resent Mr. Amato's harsh and impolitic remarks. How could poetry have achieved its current stature within the culture at large without compromise? Compromise and capitulation are two ways we develop a sense of community. Just ask Congress or any other "cigar filled room." Prizes, awards and grants also build a sense of community. Hasn't Mr. Amato ever been to a state fair and watched as the blue ribbon was pinned on the prize heifer? How naive of Mr. Amato to insist that poetry be a meritocracy while all these egos are still walking around breathing. Besides, not only is the meritricious more applicable to the living, because we often desire not to offend, it is more inclusive. Further, you can't judge a great poet the same way you can judge say a great CEO, politician or weapons designer. Standards for poetry have to be found outside of poetry itself in places like the academy. In this we are greatly aided, as Ms. Lederer points out, by adopting the buddy system of corporate America. 'Objective' criticism is devisive and unmannerly. Therefore by harnessing the unmannerly element of competition within a system of awards, prizes, grants and publications, we can pretend to standards higher than Bill Gates, Billy Sol Estes and Bebe Rebozo. I've noticed that some major poets lately have become "too big to fail" just like some banks, corporations and brokerage houses. And as for friends, the great Roman arbitrager, Commodious, wrote "A friend is just a stranger that you let get close enough to kill you." (His power of prophecy were amazing. Most murders in America ARE committed by someone who knows the victim.) That we poets have adopted the ethos of the marketplace with virtually none of its procribed benefits, points only to the need for more prizes and grants. Journalists now lead the list in numbers of awards and prizes that they present to their fellows in the profession. Need I say more, my dear Mr. Amato.---Carlo Parcelli, compadre ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:52:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just give me enough money to pay for basic medical and maybe a bit of living expenses and I'll say anything you want in regard to heifers or big poets or little poets or academic tenured jobs or even academic part-time jobs, we all need money, we're all desperate for it, just enough to survive not to mention buying poetry books which are a lot of money unless you belong to a coterie going to send you free stuff or unless you're teaching somewhere nice, even these discussions are privileged, I can hardly afford my ISP, Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Judging what on EARTH is "potluck contest" joe? i'm trying to imagine... - you bring your own prize? and choose who you think should get it, i.e. "..hmmm, i'll bring that set of potholders aunt alice crocheted, and the plaster dog with the basket in his mouth with just that little chip by the tail... o.k., good summer ku, i'll give it the plaster dog..." - everyone brings one line, and you all assemble togehter a poem for the evening? and everyone gets to take some words home, if there are any leftovers? - everyone brings a peice of writing, and you all put it together in a book, and then vote on which peice of writing you like best, and the person who got the most votes wins, and everyone gets to take home a couple books, but the winner gets to take home a bunch?... this reminds me of when someone told me some car dealership was offering "golden keys" and i spent weeks thinking they must give you some tacky fake gold key shaped plaque to hang in your rec room or something, and who would actually want something like THAT, and, god help me, i actually said as much, something like "well that dealership offers golden keys, like who would want one of those on their wall" to a group of friends and i have NEVER heard the end of it... e ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:12:13 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > Just give me enough money to pay for basic medical and maybe a bit of > living expenses and I'll say anything you want in regard to heifers or big > poets or little poets or academic tenured jobs or even academic part-time > jobs, we all need money, we're all desperate for it, just enough to > survive not to mention buying poetry books which are a lot of money unless > you belong to a coterie going to send you free stuff or unless you're > teaching somewhere nice, even these discussions are privileged, I can > hardly afford my ISP, Jennifer What happened to the cute, sweet Jennfer? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:55:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "d.j. huppatz" Subject: judging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "What bothered us was that in renouncing judgement we had the impression that we were depriving ourselves of all means of marking differences between existents, between modes of existence, as if from that point everything was of the same value. But is it not rather judgement which presupposes pre-existent criteria (superior values), and pre-existent for all time (to the infinity of time), in such a way that it cannot apprehend what is new in an existent, nor even have a presentiment of the creation of a mode of existence? ... Judgement prevents any new mode of existence from arriving." -Gilles Deleuze, To Be Done With Judgement ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit d.j. huppatz wrote: > > "What bothered us was that in renouncing judgement we had the impression > that we were depriving ourselves of all means of marking differences > between existents, between modes of existence, as if from that point > everything was of the same value. But is it not rather judgement which > presupposes pre-existent criteria (superior values), and pre-existent for > all time (to the infinity of time), in such a way that it cannot apprehend > what is new in an existent, nor even have a presentiment of the creation of > a mode of existence? ... Judgement prevents any new mode of existence from > arriving." > > -Gilles Deleuze, To Be Done With Judgement I like the sentiment here, but it is a commonplace and in and of itself constitutes a judgment---actually a series of them.---cp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:51:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: Hello to Charles, and a request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Charles Alexander: It's great to see you on this list! Hope all's well with you. I'm still in Japan...but more of that later on the private line. I'm wondering if you or anybody on the list can tell me the address of Robert Lax. I really like his work and would like to write to him. All best, Jesse Glass. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Alexander To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 10:08 AM Subject: Re: another course request >At 09:58 AM 9/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Prose is indefensible. But seriously, I think Sidney and Shelley were >>defending not poetry as a genre, or "verse," but poesie in a larger sense; >>their defenses (or apologies) apply beyond what we think of as "poetry" >>today. > >as does Aristotle > >on a more recent note, in 1996 Burning Deck published Paul Auster's book, >*Why Write?* which collects seven pieces which might be thought of as >Auster's "defense." > > >charles > > >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 22:33:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981004095504.007d99d0@mail.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, d.j. huppatz wrote: > "What bothered us was that in renouncing judgement we had the impression > that we were depriving ourselves of all means of marking differences > between existents, between modes of existence, as if from that point > everything was of the same value. But is it not rather judgement which > presupposes pre-existent criteria (superior values), and pre-existent for > all time (to the infinity of time), in such a way that it cannot apprehend > what is new in an existent, nor even have a presentiment of the creation of > a mode of existence? ... Judgement prevents any new mode of existence from > arriving." > > -Gilles Deleuze, To Be Done With Judgement y.) Ahh, yes. Very fine once again to have the good old french bunny rabbit pulled out of the hat at last: z.) that clears things up thank you thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 20:15:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <199810032301.TAA03844@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reminds me of the Prix Queneau, my personal favorite. The poet/novelist Raymond Queneau, who spent his working hours overseeing the most establishment of all French presses (tho the term hardly translates into our sense of established), once a year would don full dress attire, go to Les Halles in the wee hours, and buy a bushel of oysters. Then he would knock on the door of the writer whose book he had liked best in the previous year, and when the bleary-eyed winner answered the door he'd shove the oysters into his arms, announcing, "You have pleased me," and leave. So what is a gold key? At 07:01 PM 10/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >what on EARTH is "potluck contest" joe? i'm trying to imagine... > >- you bring your own prize? and choose who you think should get it, i.e. >"..hmmm, i'll bring that set of potholders aunt alice crocheted, and the >plaster dog with the basket in his mouth with just that little chip by >the tail... o.k., good summer ku, i'll give it the plaster dog..." > >- everyone brings one line, and you all assemble togehter a poem for >the evening? and everyone gets to take some words home, if there are >any leftovers? > >- everyone brings a peice of writing, and you all put it together in a >book, and then vote on which peice of writing you like best, and the >person who got the most votes wins, and everyone gets to take home a >couple books, but the winner gets to take home a bunch?... > >this reminds me of when someone told me some car dealership was offering >"golden keys" and i spent weeks thinking they must give you some tacky >fake gold key shaped plaque to hang in your rec room or something, and >who would actually want something like THAT, and, god help me, i actually >said as much, something like "well that dealership offers golden keys, like >who would want one of those on their wall" to a group of friends and i have >NEVER heard the end of it... > >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:02:08 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "d.j. huppatz" Subject: Re: judging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:31 PM 10/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >d.j. huppatz wrote: >> >> "What bothered us was that in renouncing judgement we had the impression >> that we were depriving ourselves of all means of marking differences >> between existents, between modes of existence, as if from that point >> everything was of the same value. But is it not rather judgement which >> presupposes pre-existent criteria (superior values), and pre-existent for >> all time (to the infinity of time), in such a way that it cannot apprehend >> what is new in an existent, nor even have a presentiment of the creation of >> a mode of existence? ... Judgement prevents any new mode of existence from >> arriving." >> >> -Gilles Deleuze, To Be Done With Judgement >I like the sentiment here, but it is a commonplace and in and of itself >constitutes a judgment---actually a series of them.---cp > Commonplace perhaps but needs come out again & again because competition is such an integral part of the literary industry. There must be a better way of distributing money. As Joe pointed out, it comes back to community - it seems absurd to pluck out one lucky winner out of a community of writers. The potluck idea sounds more appealing (the "ideal game": an affirmation of chance ... To push the country fair/prize heifer idea even futher, does anyone take bets on literary prizes? The Booker or the Nobel Prize or some such? Now there's a business idea if someone's not already doing it ... Dan Huppatz Melbourne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: Murfreesboro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas Bell do you know Short Mountain, the intentional community of the Radical Fairies. Lots of creative folks there. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 02:11:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Rimbaud's Voyelles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (I am so sorry for my rancor and offer my translation of Rimbaud's Voyelles in Tribute to Everyone! Thank you, Jennifer! Now the fun begins (below!)!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Rimbaud's (Voyelles) Vowels Hey, A Black!, E White, I('m) Read! YAY!, U(ni)Verse (Green), Oh so Blue: Hey, vowels, Just one of these Days I'm Gonna speak to your New Words! So what? Hey, A Black Corset, Neat Large and Rotund Nipples Every Day (Sorry, Wrong Line), Well, just covered with big old Sparkle-Flies! Bombing and lots of Cruel Smells, O You can Imagine and Now There's Shadowy Gulfs of E, all vapors and something called "tentes" and Lots of Candor Here! Then there's glacial and fiery spears and something else, wait, White Kings yes shaking something called "Ombelles" Without the Capital, I's pretty lipping after and bloody perky Visage! wouldn't You Say I? In anger, or the usual drunken Penitents? And where'd this Extra Line "Come in"? U(ni)Cycles Divine and terrific Vibrations in Viridian Seas!, this is U! Peaceful animals all around something and peace of Taking Rides that Alchemy impresses everyone on the grand and studious fronts, maybe "Foreheads" wouldn't U think if U could? Grand and Very Serious Sages just for You and they Know all these Words too! Now this big terrific Clairion Trumpets, full of strange Stridencies Made of O, you know, dOn't you? I'm Jennifer giving you This Terrific Trance- lation! Silences just rush around Worlds, Angels, Avatars, and even Julu Comes in for O Nikuk-O! Heh! O's just the very end of it, Omega's his Name and You'll Never guess his Game, it's the Violet Ray of his I's (way out of Order, _here!_). And if there were still An other A-Vowel in my Native French, it would go Here, aw, Go on Jennifer, Y not? The pun laps Big Seas of Marble! And How Do I know! I'm Arthur Rimbaud! __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:07:45 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: contests in a world, not a hotel room Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >can you talk about how you opened your contests, >presses, magazines, reading series, grant panels, >to work from people you DIDNT know, to the >BIG world outside the small one? Welcome back Eliza. Its great to be open to contributors - across borders for instance - and = not just from within your own backyard. But its just so costly. With the current exchange rate, ten dollars for a = poem becomes seventeen, a money order is another ten ... then theres = postage. It can be inhibiting. Ralph Wessman / Hobart ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981004140208.007d9d40@mail.ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" carlo's got me smiling here!... actually, e, i can't recall now whether the 'potluck' thing was a contest or a call for poetry... hmmmm... but here again, the way such an appeal is situated in the awp chronicle, the effect is pretty much the same (for yours truly, that is)... in fact i'm blanking in part b/c i find such stuff so discouraging... we've had some good examples here of contests that are entirely on the up & up, as well as contests that serve a particular community well, bringing money into the hands of those who need it... what i was trying to establish was a particular aspect of contests---the way they're deployed in academe, under the "creative writing" rubric---that leaves a lot to be desired... for a spell i too was under their spell---but not any longer... the closest i'll come to submitting anything i write to a contest is the nea grant system... now i can imagine a contest where favors are par for the course... we've covered this ground here on poetics before---in my soon-to-be-former humanities dept., we have an annual writing contest where students are SUPPOSED to ask instructor/judges for help on their entries... obviously the work of those students who do this year in and year out will become a known quantity in relatively short order... any attempt at blind review is thereby defeated from the start... but this is the way this contest has been proposed and run for many years now... i'm not saying, btw, that i'm entirely comfortable with this, either... but i AM saying that EVERYONE involved knows how this works, has worked... not so when you use "national" contests and "national" presses and the like to discriminate between "promising" and "unpromising" writers in a *national* job search for a creative writing professor... this latter is an entirely different affair, and if the contests aren't entirely on the up & up, you're messing with bread & butter issues... and no---i don't think that *everyone* knows how this works---whether we're talking the contest/awards system itself or the way said awards are used by search committees... i suppose, on the one hand, part of being a "professional" is being aware of same... but this doesn't make such apparatus any the more appealing, or necessary... of course i can imagine the counterargument quite easily---that winning such awards and participating in such contests is key part of one's "professional development"... but then, once again, and as dan h has just indicated, one would have to ask just what sort of "professional community" is thereby encouraged... which is what brought me out of lurk in the first place---i think the question of corrupt contests, though interesting in some ways, is less significant, finally, than that of the question of judging itself... this latter has been the subject, too, of some discussion here wrt the slam scene... but i'm only keeping with what i know best---how academic creative writers are brought into the fold... and one more thing (and also discussed here in the past): there are plenty of (imho) shoddy poetry contests and organizations out there... you all know what i'm talking about---the one's that offer, e.g., "anthologies" of winning poetry for the so-called entry fee... we can all talk about the cultural work done by reams of hallmark card verse---this is a legitimate way of discussing such stuff---but really, we all know, too, that the bulk of work submitted into these contests is, well, pretty uninformed... anyway, tell me: how might you distinguish the so-called "important" contests from these 'populist' operations, anyway?---if not by some appeal to evaluating on the up & up??? (WHATEVER one makes of contests and judging)... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:50:44 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz Subject: Robert Lax's address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As far as I know Robert Lax still lives on the Greek island of Patmos. We performed his Black/White Oratorio last year in Geneva with the assistance of John Beer who was helping Lax prepare his papers for an archive that's been recently established at the Friedsam Library at St. Bonaventure University in N.Y. You might try them for an exact address. Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 07:10:19 +0000 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Rimbaud's Voyelles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, right your that grant sniffing, academic poet, A. Jenn Rimbaud. Your no Rimbaud, pal. Your talented, but that's all the more reason not to be whining about this little grant hand out or that pop gun prize. Rimbaud was never cute and never compromised. Christ, if you were Rimbaud you would've already abandoned writing for a career in business which legend holds also included a shot at the slave trade. In this day and age, give up writing and buy and sell human beings and you may just be in line for the Dynamite Prize. A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > (I am so sorry for my rancor and offer my translation of Rimbaud's > Voyelles in Tribute to Everyone! Thank you, Jennifer! Now the fun > begins (below!)!) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rimbaud's (Voyelles) Vowels > > Hey, A Black!, E White, I('m) Read! YAY!, U(ni)Verse (Green), Oh so Blue: > Hey, vowels, Just one of these Days I'm Gonna speak to your New Words! > So what? Hey, A Black Corset, Neat Large and Rotund Nipples Every Day > (Sorry, Wrong Line), Well, just covered with big old Sparkle-Flies! > Bombing and lots of Cruel Smells, O You can Imagine and Now > > There's Shadowy Gulfs of E, all vapors and something called "tentes" and > Lots of Candor Here! Then there's glacial and fiery spears and something > else, wait, White Kings yes shaking something called "Ombelles" Without > the Capital, I's pretty lipping after and bloody perky Visage! wouldn't > You Say I? In anger, or the usual drunken Penitents? And where'd this > Extra Line "Come in"? > > U(ni)Cycles Divine and terrific Vibrations in Viridian Seas!, this is U! > Peaceful animals all around something and peace of Taking Rides that > Alchemy impresses everyone on the grand and studious fronts, maybe > "Foreheads" wouldn't U think if U could? Grand and Very Serious Sages > just for You and they Know all these Words too! > > Now this big terrific Clairion Trumpets, full of strange Stridencies Made > of O, you know, dOn't you? I'm Jennifer giving you This Terrific Trance- > lation! Silences just rush around Worlds, Angels, Avatars, and even Julu > Comes in for O Nikuk-O! Heh! O's just the very end of it, Omega's his Name > and You'll Never guess his Game, it's the Violet Ray of his I's (way out > of Order, _here!_). > > And if there were still An other A-Vowel in my Native French, it would go > Here, aw, Go on Jennifer, Y not? The pun laps Big Seas of Marble! And How > Do I know! I'm Arthur Rimbaud! > > __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:22:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kent Shaw Subject: Re: judging In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981004140208.007d9d40@mail.ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- I really can't believe that anyone would call poetry a "small community". And perhaps this is touching a subject completely separate from the fact that grants are biased, and contests looking for "new writers" are tacitly requiring that an MFA and list of journal publications be included. But this idea of a small community is one of the problems itself. So many egos and ambitions only looking up to be accepted into this elite cadre of professional poets and forgetting what the term community means. I can and will draw a personal example. Here in St. Louis I helped to put together a spoken word CD of entirely unpublished voices. From our one independent bookstore, I was offered a list of the 200 "literary" people from the city, some of them my own professors, some of them teaching MFA to poets on this disk, some of them people that coordinate poets to come here from out-of-town. None of them showed up. I guess they decided they just didn't have time to come and listen. But isn't that what community is? Isn't community sometimes sacrificing time to the unknown? By the fact that they are publishing, I can see they have personal ambitions that stretch outside of St. Louis. And that's fine. But I think there are many times when the wish to get into this "small community" makes some poets forget that they need to listen as much as they need to write. Especially because the audience for poetry IS small (compared to the audience for novels or TV), and I'm ultimately one of that small audience that's perhaps going to buy the journal or book they end up publishing. Kent Shaw. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) SAWSJ Information List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:22:56 -0400 (EDT) From: J Saws To: SAWSJ Information List <> Subject: SAWSJ Information List ============================================================ Scholars, Artists, and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ) Information List September 28, 1998 Web site: www.sage.edu/html/SAWSJ ============================================================ Contents: 1. INTRODUCTION: WHAT IS THE SAWSJ INFORMATION LIST? 2. BEVERLY ENTERPRISES'S SUIT AGAINST ROSEMARY TRUMP AND SEIU 585 3. ORGANIZING MEETING FOR SAWSJ IN NEW JERSEY 4. NATIONWIDE ACTIONS TO END CHILD LABOR AND SWEATSHOP ABUSES, OCTOBER 3rd 5. THIRD WORLD NEWSREEL CELEBRATES ITS 30TH ANNIVERSARY; PRESENTS NEW DOCUMENTARY "ANOTHER BROTHER" 6. SENATE PASSES BILL ON NO FUNDING FOR MINORITIES IN COLLEGE!! 7. SYRACUSE WORKERS WIN STRIKE! LETTER FROM ORGANIZER 8. CULTURAL STRATEGY WORKSHOP TO BE HELD AT POOR PEOPLES SUMMIT IN PHILADELPHIA 9. NATIONWIDE CAMPUS EFFORT IN FARMWORKER BOYCOTT 10. SUPPORT MONTHLY REVIEW PRESS ============================================================ 1. INTRODUCTION: WHAT IS THE SAWSJ INFORMATION LIST? A number of responses to last week's e-mailing made it clear that we need to more clearly define the purpose of this list and its relation to SAWSJ. The list is run by SAWSJ with the goal of providing a medium for information exchange and discussion among intellectuals, artists, and activists involved in, and in solidarity with the multicultural, international working-class movement. The list's orientation is activist rather than scholarly, in the sense that we want to carry messages that are mainly concerned with possibilities for organizing and action. Most SAWSJ members subscribe to the list, but the majority of the subscribers to this large list are not in SAWSJ, although they clearly share a broad political outlook with SAWSJ. Likewise, the messages that are posted to the list are not officially endorsed by SAWSJ unless this is clearly stated. For example, the messages, posted in August, that solicited support to the Tom Leedham Legal and Accounting Fund and the TDU's Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Foundation (TRF) -- the messages that irked Hoffa Jr. and crowd -- were not endorsed by SAWSJ but were for the information of subscribers. The notices posted in support of the Flint GM strikers, or of Kate Bronfenbrenner against Beverly Enterprises, however, were SAWSJ initiatives -- and that was clearly stated. Our hopes are that we can turn the current list into a vital forum for ideas on how to build the struggle. We, however, have no interest in trying to make it into a simple transmission belt for SAWSJ. Andor Skotnes ============================================================ 2. BEVERLY ENTERPRISES'S SUIT AGAINST ROSEMARY TRUMP AND SEIU 585 The last e-mailing to the SAWSJ Information List included a call to e-mail the Speaker of the House in support of Rosemary Trump and SEIU 585 in their fight against the Beverly Enterprises defamation suit (see SAWSJ web site for the details of the suit). Unfortunately, the e-mail address given didn't work for some of us, although it apparently did for others. It seems that the e-mail address given for Gingrich was correct, but may be programmed to receive e-mail selectively. Whatever the case, if you want to send a support message on this issue you can: 1) try the e-mail address again; 2) access Gingrich's web site at http://www.house.gov/gingrich/ and send your message via its embedded e-mail function; 3) write him at 2428 Rayburn House Office Building, United States House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. 20515; or 4) phone his aides at 1-202-225-4501 or 1-202-225-4656. =========================================================== 3. ORGANIZING MEETING FOR SAWSJ IN NEW JERSEY ALL NEW JERSEY FRIENDS AND MEMBERS OF SAWSJ ARE INVITED TO ATTEND THE ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING OF NEW JERSEY SAWSJ ON FRIDAY, OCT.2, AT 7PM... Come out to the founding meeting of NEW JERSEY SAWSJ October 2, 1998 Friday at 7pm Labor Education Center, Room 115 Ryders Lane & Clifton Avenue Cook/Douglass Campus, Rutgers University New Brunswick, NJ For more information about NJ/Rutgers SAWSJ write csinyai@rci.rutgers.edu or call (732)463-0743. ============================================================ 4. NATIONWIDE ACTIONS TO END CHILD LABOR AND SWEATSHOP ABUSES, OCTOBER 3rd The National Labor Committee (NLC), the New York based anti-sweatshop organization that uncovered the Kathie Lee child-labor scandal, has announced a new two-year campaign focusing on the world's largest retailer, Wal-Mart. The "People's Right to Know" campaign demands that corporations: 1) disclose to the public in what factories their goods are being produced; 2) open factory doors to truly independent monitoring by local religious and human rights organizations; 3) pay a living wage and respect local and international labor law (including the right to organize). On October 3rd around the U.S. and Canada, activists, Unions, church groups, and students will hold demonstrations and other actions at Wal-Mart locations demanding that Wal-Mart respect human and worker rights at it's thousands of factories and stores. Over 80% of Wal-Mart clothing is made overseas, far exceeding the industry average of 60%. There will be a large demonstration in New York at the Kathie Lee/ ABC/ Disney studios across from Lincoln Center at 1 o'clock on Saturday October 3rd. Please join the National Labor Committee in this day of protest and consider having your labor organization/ student group/ community association etc. endorse the campaign. Call 212 242 3002 for more info. National Labor Committee 275 7th Ave. 15th Floor New York, NY 10001 www.nlcnet.org ============================================================ 5. THIRD WORLD NEWSREEL CELEBRATES ITS 30TH ANNIVERSARY; PRESENTS NEW DOCUMENTARY "ANOTHER BROTHER" Clarence Fitch was a man of and for his times, an African American who witnessed and took part in the social movements and the history of this country from the turbulent sixties through the present decade. Award-winning filmmaker Tami Gold brings his life to the screen in her new documentary ANOTHER BROTHER. Telling a story fraught with both heroism and tragedy, Gold uses Fitch's life as a jumping-off point to explore a remarkable range of issues -- racism, the Black civil rights movement, the Vietnam War and its aftermath, the scourge of drugs, and finally the AIDS crisis. ANOTHER BROTHER is being presented by the Museum of Modern Art in celebration of Third World Newsreel's 30th Anniversary on Thursday, October 8, at 6:30 pm and on Friday, October 9th at 3:00 pm in the Roy and Niuta Titus Theater 2, 11 West 53 Street, New York City. ANOTHER BROTHER is anchored in Fitch's early years growing up in Harlem and Jersey City, his memories of a tight-knit working class family, and his growing awareness of American racism. A wealth of archival footage is combined with period music, a memorable original score, and the recollections of Fitch's family, friends, and Fitch himself. The documentary follows Fitch as he enlists in the Marines and finds himself in Vietnam where he encounters the harsh realities and violence of the war, as well as the enduring racism of the military. Fitch survives only to return to New Jersey angry, alienated, outspokenly anti-war, and with a drug habit. Deftly moving from the personal to the wider political canvass, and back again, ANOTHER BROTHER both honors its subject and digs deeply into the roots of his struggles. The social upheaval surrounding Fitch, from inner city riots and anti-war demonstrations to Fitch's new-found workplace activism, is pointedly on display in the documentary. Gold however gives this complex legacy a new slant by using her character's individual journey, with its attendant crises, as the prism through which to see his times. Clarence became a leader among returned veterans, working against military intervention and for peace throughout his life. He fathered a daughter, who as a grown-up young woman provides one of the most poignant voices in ANOTHER BROTHER. But years of heroin use eventually took its toll. Five years after going into rehabilitation and becoming drug-free, Fitch fell ill from pneumonia and was diagnosed with AIDS. ANOTHER BROTHER closes with this last battle in Fitch's life. ANOTHER BROTHER speaks on many levels to diverse audiences: high school and college students, African American viewers who find in Clarence a role model and an individual whose life illustrates the deep impact of racism, and all Americans who seek to understand the challenging times in which we live. "Inspiring documentary which recounts the tale of a Black Vietnam War vet who returned home to Jersey City and somehow managed, even though he was battling heroin addiction and AIDS, to become an anti-war activist, high-school mentor and community leader a Reel American hero." Jessica Lustig TIME OUT NEW YORK "A compelling, must see documentary of the Vietnam War period, Black life, and a social commentary that depicts the richness of a hero who never stopped fighting for his country, community and people." Job Mashariki, Executive Director Black Veterans for Social Justice "Tremendous! An incredibly powerful film that brings contemporary history to life. ANOTHER BROTHER follows the complex and often difficult life of Clarence Fitch, who despite great adversity was able to retain hope and commit himself to social change. This illuminating film is more than the story of one man's life, it's a story about the power of redemption." Bill Fletcher, Jr., Director of Education, AFL-CIO ANOTHER BROTHER was made possible with the support of The Aaron Diamond Foundation, PSC-CUNY Research Grant, the Robeson Fund, the Puffin Foundation, Carol Bernstein Ferry and the A.J. Muste Memorial Institute. 6. SENATE PASSES BILL ON NO FUNDING FOR MINORITIES IN COLLEGE!! A bill will be heard in Congress next week to prohibit affirmative action in admissions for ANY institution of higher education that receives ANY federal funding (Pell grants, loans, etc.). This would end affirmative action in EVERY COLLEGE AND UNIVERSITY IN THE UNITED STATES! PLEASE READ AND ACT SOON! Rep. Frank Riggs (R-CA)Chairman of the House Education Subcommittee on Children, Youth, and Families is planning to offer an ANTI-AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in admissions amendment when the Higher Education Act is voted on the floor NEXT WEEK. The amendment would prohibit all institutions of higher education from using affirmative action in its' admission decisions. If even one student at the institution receives federal funds (i.e., Pell Grant or Student Loan) they would be violating federal law under this proposal. Affirmative action would be illegal even if the school believes it is necessary to insure a diverse student body, or to remedy past or present discrimination. Call members of Congress (202) 224-3121 and the President (202) 456-1414. They need to hear from us the importance of affirmative action. PASS THIS MESSAGE ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! ALL OF US WILL LOSE IF THIS BILL BECOMES THE LAW OF THE LAND! ============================================================ 7. SYRACUSE WORKERS WIN STRIKE! LETTER FROM ORGANIZER Dear Faculty, Graduate &Undergraduate Students, Clericals & Other Supporters, On behalf of the Union and the members of the Syracuse Chapter of Local 200a, SEIU I want to extend our heartfelt and sincere appreciation for all that you have done to help in our most recent strike. And, I should add, all that you continue to do to aid in assuring that Parking Services workers are not treated as second class citizens by the University. After taking a couple of days to recoup I have just completed reading, and responding in some cases, to more than 250 e-mail messages that piled up over the course of the strike. It was overwhelming for me to see how much was going on that neither I, or our members had any idea about. The support from Dutch Trade Unionists, the proposed two-day wildcat strike by faculty, the banner making for the game, the networking for letters to the Chancellor, the support from Alumni and so on and so on. What is clear is that the strike became a rallying point for all of us. It was a unifying process. And while the immediate concern of the strike was the wages and working conditions of the service, maintenance and library workers the struggle has really been one of confronting corporate arrogance that has infected this academic institution like a disease. And that is a struggle that effects us all, directly. On behalf of the Union we are proud to fight with you. For students this corporate arrogance was manifested in the University's attempt to stifle discussion and debate on a University campus of all places! For faculty it was University's threats to penalize, discriminate against and even fire those who would dare to challenge the authority of the "boss." For the members of Local 200A it was the fact that this corporate giant just refused to acknowledge our issues and our lives. The arrogance of power! The strike did not, as the Chancellor warned, fracture this campus. On the contrary the strike unified this campus in support of building a true "community." Perhaps what was fractured was the Administration's strangle hold over all of us. That our, and I do mean OUR (as in all of us), strike was successful is an understatement. The fact is that for almost 10 days this campus was unable to operate normally. Whether it was dirty bathrooms or classes being held at the Westcott Community Center, for one week, we controlled, at least in some Large measure, what was being taught on the campus. The strike was a real life drama unfolding in front of all of us. It was the struggle of normal people struggling to be heard over the inertia of everyday life which is controlled by corporate interests. And we were heard! In spite of the University's attempts to "sugar-coat" the settlement that was reached the agreement addressed EVERY ONE of our key issues. The University was forced to respond and to concede something on each one. It was by all measurements a resounding victory. 1. On Subcontracting: The University completely backed off any efforts to change the current restrictions on subcontracting. 2. On Temporary Workers: The University has agreed to very specific language that defines a temporary worker and prohibits them from using temporary workers to fill permanent positions unless it is to fill in for someone on disability or leave of absence. 3. On Stopping the Wage Steps: The University agreed to stop the wage steps this year, add one more step in the second year of the contract and stop them FOREVER in the third. Now everyone will reach the top of his/her labor grade within 8 years. As our members say, "There is light at the end of the tunnel." 4. On Parking Services: Sadly, we did not get the Parking Services workers included in our existing agreement. However, the University agreed to a contract with Parking Services that will expire on the same date as the existing agreement. That means we will fight together again in three years. The Grievance and Arbitration language from the existing agreement is in Place immediately and "just cause" for discipline is also in place immediately. The University has also agreed to the same fringe benefits as in the existing agreement. A schedule for negotiating the rest of the agreement has been set as well. We will need your continued vigilance in this regard. 5. On Protecting Skilled Trades: The University agreed to protect skilled trades and not allow non-skilled workers to do skilled trades work. Further, the University agreed to establish a Labor/Management Committee the purpose of which is to monitor and protect skilled trades. 6. On Pay Equity for the Library: The University agreed to increase the entire Library scale by 6% in the first year. Then increase the top of all grades by 4% in each of the next two years. This will result in an almost %15 increase in the Library Pay Scale. More needs to be done here, but it is a recognition of the problem beyond what they wanted to do. Probably more than anything, what this strike did was to build our self-respect as a union. We stood up for what was right and said, "We won't take it anymore." Without all of you by our sides there is no question that our success would have been less certain. Now, however, we have built ties that must be maintained and nurtured for future struggles, not just for SEIU, but for students, faculty and the unorganized on campus. We must continue to work together and to build a real community. Thanks again for all your help. Several ideas are bubbling around to commemorate the strike. One is to put together a booklet with photos and a history of the strike. Anyone with special talents in this regard is encouraged to contact me. The other is a commemorative button. All will be available for those who helped. We'll let you know as these ideas progress. In Solidarity, Coert Bonthius, Union Representative ============================================================ 8. CULTURAL STRATEGY WORKSHOP TO BE HELD AT POOR PEOPLES SUMMIT IN PHILADELPHIA "What can we do? For the time being, simply show up--with our eyes, ears, hearts, and minds open."--Steve Earle Hosted by the Kensington Welfare Rights Union (KWRU), a Poor People's Summit will be held in Philadelphia the weekend of October 9-11. Already, over one hundred poor people's organizations from all over the United States have committed themselves to come, as have several dozen "non-poor people's" organizations, such as organizations of social workers and student groups. There will be at least 40 workshops on a mind-boggling variety of topics pertaining to the struggle to end poverty, including a very important workshop on the strategic use of culture of all kinds. The workshop will give artists and cultural organizers a place to share their experiences and ideas and to establish networking mechanisms for the future. Could you please let either myself or Danny Alexander (913-631-5184; dalexand@gvi.net) know: *Your thoughts on what should be included as part of the workshop. *Can you attend the Summit? Can other artists and/or cultural organizers you know? While the media continue to promote the myth that the American economy is booming, the 80 million Americans living below the poverty line (which includes most artists, writers, and musicians) have a different story to tell. A big part of that story is that poor people are organizing themselves, educating themselves, and speaking out very eloquently for themselves. The Poor People's Summit will provide an important opportunity for the rapidly growing number of poor people's organizations to coalesce into a full-fledged movement to end poverty for once and for all. It's also of the greatest importance to have people from ALL walks of life at the Summit. First of all, even those of us still making a decent living are only one or two paychecks (or tours, or grants) away from poverty ourselves. Of equal importance is the fact that, to be successful, a poor people's movement needs to shake up every level of society. In a nutshell, the Poor People's Summit is for EVERYONE who needs or wants to end poverty in America. Finally, history has repeatedly shown that the struggles of poor people provoke an intense reaction from writers, artists, and musicians. If we can tap into that reaction in an organized way, everything is possible. For instance, at the Summit a proposal will be presented to approve a March of the Americas, in which large contingents from Canada, Latin America, and the U.S. would converge on Washington, D.C. in October 1999 for a march on the UN in New York to continue to press the need of poor people the world over for economic human rights. With broad involvement from the cultural communities of this hemisphere, the March of the Americas can make history and unleash a multitude of possibilities for all of us to make a difference in this world. I hope to hear from you soon. I look forward to seeing you in Philadelphia and, in the meantime, please disseminate This message as widely as possible. Thank you very much. Peace- Lee Ballinger, P.O. Box 341305, Los Angeles CA 90034 / 310-398-4477 rockrap@aol.com KWRU, Box 50678, Philadelphia PA 19132 / 215-203-1945 kwru@libertynet.org Website: http://www.libertynet.org/kwru ============================================================ 9. NATIONWIDE CAMPUS EFFORT IN FARMWORKER BOYCOTT Action packet available for campus organizers Campaign for Labor Rights is putting the finishing touches on an extensive organizing packet for use by student activists who want to build a campaign on their campus in support of the Gardenburger and FLAV-R-PAC boycott called by PCUN, the Oregon farmworker union. To receive a packet, contact Campaign for Labor Rights at Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Judging Content-Type: text/plain C. Parcelli wrote: >I resent Mr. Amato's harsh and impolitic remarks. How could poetry have >achieved its current stature within the culture at large without >compromise? While I appreciate the need to compromise for the sake of realism or politesse, I'm just wondering what kind of "current stature" you think poetry has achieved. Hmm, maybe we ought to try _less_ compromise; from the point of view of visibility or popularity (which, I'll be the first to acknowledge, are not the only or necessarily even the most valid yardsticks), poetry doesn't seem to have much stature within the culture AT LARGE at all. & Personally, I didn't feel Joe was being so harsh & impolitic... but then again, I can sympathize with his point of view, however much it is true in the end that capitulations have to be made... --Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:12:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sean Casey Subject: Zorn/Hejinian Collaboration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Came across a cd in the used bin yesterday, a collaboration between saxophonist/composer John Zorn and poet Lyn Hejinian (and another poet I can't remember). Has anyone heard this? What's it like? Worth 8 bucks? Sean Casey -- Sean Casey Box 722, Brown University Providence, RI 02912 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:38:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:54:11 -0700 from On Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:54:11 -0700 Karen Kelley said: > >It certainly does, but we also have to remember that the hoops are for those >who want to pursue that kind of *professional* development, which is different >for many of us from our *writerly* development. > >They seem like two different jobs. Some people pursue one or the other, and >some pursue both. I think there's a sense that those who pursue the >professional trappings are somehow less "pure" than those who don't. But what's >wrong with someone doing the whole national publisher/award/nepotism circuit if >it suits them? To think that the high-top crowd loses out on something because >there are all these credentialed professional poets out there seems silly. >Harvard isn't going to hire someone with a single chapbook to their credit, no >matter *how* good the chapbook is. Not because Harvard is evil, but because >it's a business. What's wrong with someone doing the whole award/nepotism thing? This is a good question. I might try it myself if I could just get my desk organized & if I thought I had the slightest chance in hell. But there's something else, some elusive thing that maybe keeps me from getting my desk so organized. The feeling that the whole "system" is not a conspiracy but a sort of mindless snow job. It's the publishing/awarding/promotional/blurbing/gossiping/ circulating/name-dropping noise that is actually antithetical to what I think of as good writing. It's the commercial/professional/self-serving/ calculating/protection racket aspect that seems to have nothing to do with the sense of literature as a criticism of life from deep within the most refined, delicate, probing, honest, gifted corners of said life. The sense of the imagination as the greatest threat to sanctioned unjust complacencies - and that careerism is the opposite of imaginative independence. So that I approach the "poetry shelf" in the bookstore in a bad and unreceptive mood, and I blame the promoters for this (perhaps unfairly). I fully respect the canniness of artistic talent, its ability to consort with & dominate commercial systems for its own benefit - yet canniness is not the skill I care about in poetry. So maybe I'm playing it safe & hypocritical by demanding unreal standards? I dunno. I repeat Osip Mandelstam's maxim, applicable to any age or society: "there are 2 kinds of literature - official and unofficial. The first is trash; the second, stolen air." With the caveat that there's a lot of trash in the unofficial camp too. Literacy are a mixed blissing. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:14:20 +0000 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was a joke, man. I thought Joe was right on, but needs to cut down on his caveats. But let's play. Poetry has greater "stature" now that it has been removed from the streets and resides in the academy which of course is more respectable. This new respectability, largely a product of the emphasis placed on civic values and the importance of one's own feelings characteristic of the Neo-Georgian School, has encouraged people from all walks of life to "make their little poems" as Rod Jellema is fond of putting it. Ted Turner and Michael Milke(m) write poetry, as does Secretary of Defense Cohen, Jeanne Kirkpatrick and Caspar Weinberger. Former CIA Director William Colby published a collection of short lyrics entitled Swimming Lessons published by Reader's Digest. The late, great king of military psy-ops, Edward Landsdale is said to have attempted an epic poem in the style of Vergil embracing the entire history of Southeast Asia. When I purchased part of Paul Linebarger's library, the author of Psychological Warfare and one of iits major practitioners, I found "little poems" dealing with the quaint domestic conundrums of life among Washington's social set like whether he should sit Sukarno's widow next to Richard Helms at a dinner party. These little literary bon mots, as Michael Dirda of the Washington Post would undoubtedly describe them, were wedged in the pages of books on techniques for psychological torture, a technique in and of itself that would have intrigued Hannah Arendt. Whittaker Chambers was a poet as was Harry Truman's handler, Jimmy Byrnes. A document recently released as FOIA #10345, reveals that 38% of the veterans of the Phoenix Program published books of poetry (albeit mostly with obscure vanity presses) within 10 years of termination of service so convincing a technique among the criminally sanctioned has been the Confessional School, the precursor of the New-Georgians. Norman Schwarzkopf writes love sonnets and villanelles, a fact that would have really upset his daddy, a former bagman for the DIA. There are whole schools of poetry that I'm certain you know nothing about. There is the Los Alamos School, the Richard Dailey Memorial Democratic Machine School, the Pinkerton School, the Madison Avenue School, the Hollywood School, the Manifest Destiny School, the Veterans of Foreign Wars School (a big school; very sentimental), the School of the Americas, the Chicago School, the Navy Seals school; I could go on and on, ad nauseam. But they all have one thing in common; they write like Gerald Stern. Now that's serious influence. That's "STATURE". So how can you question poetry's current "stature". Bill Cohen can adopt the liberal, do gooder ethos in a poem he's writing from his vacation home on Monday and fly in on Tuesday just in time to have his handlers tell him how to handle a lethal airstrike or police action. Poetry has such incredible "stature" now because it's so flexible. You can say nothing and insist you're doing it in the name of left-wing radicalism, even Marxism. You can establish a white middle class, college educated income between $27,500 and $78,000 per annum, I'm-so-full-that-I'm-empty-I-have-to-tell-the-world-about-it profile for poetry then uncritically apply it as a universal standard like "free market democracies", "technological revolutions", "20% return on your investments" and other such fictions. Christ, that fucker Robert Hass did that very thing in his little, kitty litterature box in the Book World of today's sad and sorry Washington Post The brutal, colonial history of the Philippines was reduced to that Neo-Georgian sentimental drivel and then praised and supported with whitey's prizes, fellowships and grants; the same blood money that some of my friends here on the list lust after. Read that poor pathetic excuse for a prize-winning poem and you just smell the stench of oppression. "Returning a Borrowed Language" or whatever the anthology is called, my ass. Can't wash all those murders off with that Neo-Georgian technique. Doesn't wash of. Can't even burn it off. So Mark. That is what I mean by "stature". The power to be part of murderous institutions and at the same time claim to be confronting them. When I defended some elements of the social science community Soakl, Gross & Levitt on this list, all I got was ignorant rancor which amounted to a blind defense of those same institutions. In that case as it turned out, the stink went right back to Richard Mellon Scaife and other defenders of the money. I'm reminded of the words of another poet here in Washington. The lapsed Jesuit, misogynist, T.V. pundit John McLaughlin. Big Loud John once said, "Whores? Whores!? We're all whores! But I'm the whore with the T.V. show!!" See, all we lack is the fucking ratings. Thanks, for the setup Mark. I got a migraine and can't read anyway. As for Amato. I mentioned his name to The Family. I think he knows what I mean. The Jimmy Hoffa School. Mark DuCharme wrote: > > C. Parcelli wrote: > > >I resent Mr. Amato's harsh and impolitic remarks. How could poetry have > >achieved its current stature within the culture at large without > >compromise? > > While I appreciate the need to compromise for the sake of realism or > politesse, I'm just wondering what kind of "current stature" you think > poetry has achieved. Hmm, maybe we ought to try _less_ compromise; from > the point of view of visibility or popularity (which, I'll be the first > to acknowledge, are not the only or necessarily even the most valid > yardsticks), poetry doesn't seem to have much stature within the culture > AT LARGE at all. > > & Personally, I didn't feel Joe was being so harsh & impolitic... but > then again, I can sympathize with his point of view, however much it is > true in the end that capitulations have to be made... > > --Mark DuCharme > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:42:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Zorn/Hejinian Collaboration In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The disc is definitely worth it if you like Zorn's music, it's a very good set of pieces from the mid-, late-1980s. But if you don't like Zorn's music, unless you're a totally obsessed collector of work by Hejinian or Myung Mi Kim, I'd pass on it. I don't have the disc with me here, so I'm only going on memory, but this is a mid-1980s project called New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands, a set of three pieces each for a different pair of musicians and narrator. The pairs of musicians are guitarists Bill Frisell/Fred Frith; drummers Joey Baron/Samm Bennett; and keyboard players Anthony Coleman/Wayne Horvitz. The writers involved are Lyn Hejinian, Myung Mi Kim, & Arto Lindsay, their texts are translated into an Asian language: Kim's is translated into Korean, Lindsay's & Hejinian's are in either Chinese or Vietnamese (I don't remember who's is which). The narrator's are not the writers, but are native speakers of the Asian language to which the texts have been translated. The texts in English are provided with the disc, though, as I recall, in very small print, often with difficult to read ink/paper combinations (the packaging is quite elaborate). When the disc came out (sometime in 1997, I think) I posted something that was probably more detailed about it to the list. You should be able to find this by searching the poetics archives at EPC for mentions of Zorn. Hope this is helpful. Bests, Herb >Came across a cd in the used bin yesterday, a collaboration >between saxophonist/composer John Zorn and poet Lyn >Hejinian (and another poet I can't remember). Has anyone >heard this? What's it like? Worth 8 bucks? > >Sean Casey > >-- > >Sean Casey >Box 722, Brown University >Providence, RI 02912 Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:15:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, Maybe it doesn't come across, but I think *Harvard* would be losing out by not having Blake, not Blake losing out not to have Harvard. I'm not quite sure why people seem to think that academia is the only place for a writer to make money--via grant or tenure. The job of *professional* may be required for money, but the profession needn't be directly related to one's personal writing. In fact, the lowering of standards that seems to be implied in the pursuit of the writerly profession of grant-mongering & ass-kissing can be avoided by pursuing a profession aside from one's writing. There seems to be great resistance to this idea. Is it because people think all they can do is write? If you can survive as a writer, you certainly have intelligence and skills that can be parlayed into living wages. And the amount of money to be made in academia is not particularly impressive--I don't understand why it seems so tantalizing to so many. Perhaps it's cynical or naive, but I'm kind of reassured by the fact that Blake, Clare, Leopardi, Dickinson, Niedecker, et al., aren't Harvard-approved. It makes me trust them more. The foregrounding of professionalism will continue as long as universities are businesses, so maybe writers should quit looking at them as employment services for writers. The point might even be raised that it really shouldn't be writers teaching, but *teachers*--alot of this discussion has been about writers complaining that they're not getting enough of the academia pie: but who has said they're frustrated because they feel they have something to offer as *teachers*? Mark Weiss wrote: > Karen--I think your last paragraph is, like the brits say, spot on. But I > have some problems with your second. Sure, it's two different jobs, and > some are disinclined or less able to perform the "professional" one. > Something--a lot--is lost, however, in the foregrounding of that task. Some > of the high-top crowd have included, say, Blake, Clare, Leopardi, > Dickinson, Niedecker, and, until recently, virtually everyone in Don > Allen's anthology (I could tell you what kind of reception my teaching > Olson at Columbia got in 1968). Can you imagine Harvard's reaction to > Blake's job application? "Self-publishes, small-press only, and a bit > eccentric." > > At 12:54 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: > >> this matter of making writers dance through such hoops as a > >> primary part of their professional development, as a primary part of how > >> they come to the act of writing and publishing, leaves a helluvalot to be > >> desired... > > > >It certainly does, but we also have to remember that the hoops are for those > >who want to pursue that kind of *professional* development, which is > different > >for many of us from our *writerly* development. > > > >They seem like two different jobs. Some people pursue one or the other, and > >some pursue both. I think there's a sense that those who pursue the > >professional trappings are somehow less "pure" than those who don't. But > what's > >wrong with someone doing the whole national publisher/award/nepotism > circuit if > >it suits them? To think that the high-top crowd loses out on something > because > >there are all these credentialed professional poets out there seems silly. > >Harvard isn't going to hire someone with a single chapbook to their > credit, no > >matter *how* good the chapbook is. Not because Harvard is evil, but because > >it's a business. > > > >And I can't help but wonder with amusement if perhaps one reason there's > such a > >call for those with heavy, specifically national publishing credits isn't > >because the university's don't know *how* to judge poetry, and figure they'd > >better go with someone someone else has recognized. The cover your ass factor > >seems high. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:21:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: trudgling addendling to previous postings on careerism/professions/integrity & all - there's the bureaucracy factor - most writers are wild injuns - Hemingway (& Carlo Parcelli too) emphasize the heroic/macho aspect of this - Wallace Stevens related it not to character but to the nature of imagination itself - essentially astonishment, delightful surprise, but undeniably Real - the teenage reader-writer goes into the novel-poem to avoid the job or try the hand at the impossible the impossible is the cliff and sad to see at the top of the cliff (wrong cliff, maybe) the booths where you fill out the applications for Approval & Success - Robert Frost ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 06:43:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: another course request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Charles Alexander: Gosh, I hope you still remember me. I'm still in Fukuoka, am happily married--with a new addition--Delmore Yoichi--just tured one. I wanted to see if you might be interested in a manuscript of Cid Corman's--he has lots of his own work, of course (New Directions will be coming out with a selected in 2000. (2000! Incredible: I thought we'd all be flying in personal space ships by now)--but he has one very interesting manuscript--his translations of the Japanese poet Santoka--that's needs the kind of home CHAX Press could provide. I've also collaborated--with Cid, and other Japanese associates-- on a small collection of translations of the poet Yoichi Kawamura--a personal friend, and an important contemporary poet. Sam Hamil--a friend of Yoichi's--may be interesting in helping out on this one. Finally--quite a while ago I'd mentioned a project based on the SATOR/AREPO/TENET/OPERA/ROTAS magic square; Song for Arepo. Part of it--but actually only an early--and unfortunately a dammaged--part--is in the archives of Grist. This one I'd be interested in asking you to print anyway, even if you wouldn't be interested in it for CHAX. And of course, I have the definitive MAN's WOWS. I still thank you for that wonderful little book that you did so many--too many--years ago. If none of this interests you, no problem. It's just good to be in touch. I hope all's well with your wife's health, and your own life. Take it easy, Jesse Glass. Any way, I hope this finds -----Original Message----- From: Charles Alexander To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 10:08 AM Subject: Re: another course request >At 09:58 AM 9/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Prose is indefensible. But seriously, I think Sidney and Shelley were >>defending not poetry as a genre, or "verse," but poesie in a larger sense; >>their defenses (or apologies) apply beyond what we think of as "poetry" >>today. > >as does Aristotle > >on a more recent note, in 1996 Burning Deck published Paul Auster's book, >*Why Write?* which collects seven pieces which might be thought of as >Auster's "defense." > > >charles > > >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:58:07 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Judging the profession MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The job of *professional* may be > required for money, but the profession needn't be directly related to one's > personal writing. I agree with you, Karen, but as a professional in a field pretty much unrelated to writing, I can tell you that it can be a drain. I'd love to spend more time writing and reading, but after 50-60 hours a week pushing pixels, tweaking code and wrestling with management, there's not much energy left to do much more than crash on the sofa in front of South Park. Also, maybe I'm idealising the writing community, but it would be nice to hang out with some people who have actually _heard_ of "Blake, Clare, Leopardi, Dickinson, Niedecker et al". Though, come to think of it, 90% of the writing community here wouldn't have heard of most of them either... There's also the question of education: if you spend most of your life learning about torts or aortas or depreciation or cumulonimbus, it doesn't leave much time to learn about caesurae or metonymy or mesostics. It would be lovely to devote one's life to writing and art, but Lagavulin don't grow on trees. Overall, though, I'm glad that I have a profession and interests outside of writing: they inform and cross-pollinate one another. But we can't all be polymaths, and they can detract from one another as well. Another barrier might be the attitude of some within the arts community to those who have mainstream careers. We're breadheads, geeks, yuppies, corporate drones or dupes of the military-industrial complex. I once had a brief relationship with a post-grad student. She'd read an essay of mine, and after we'd been going out for a little while, she asked me where I taught. When I said, no, I'm not an academic, I haven't even studied English formally since I was 16, she replied (only half joking) "My God, I'd never have gone out with you if I'd known you were a meteorologist!" I too have a little more respect for the likes of Stevens, WCW or Holub because they had careers outside of the word business. But it's bloody hard taking yourself seriously as a writer when virtually no-one you work with takes writing seriously. Which makes me all the more grateful for the few of my friends who are writers, and of course for this list. Without it, my work mailbox would have nothing but spam, Clinton jokes, and notes headed "Your website is broke. Fix it." Can anyone tell that it's a Monday morning? Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:03:16 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Murfreesboro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Levitsky wrote: > Thomas Bell do you know Short Mountain, the intentional community of the > Radical Fairies. Lots of creative folks there. chez http://www.eurofaerie.org/A%20Brief%20History%20of%20the%20Faeries.html judg ing mc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:32:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging In-Reply-To: <3617E559.4CB95857@bayarea.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've always assumed that writers, as opposed to academics involved in research, find academia appealing because it validates them and because it can be a relatively easy way to make a living--flexible hours, long vacations--and still write. Williams and Stevens, for two, had serious, tough careers and managed to turn out reams of stuff, but not all writers or writerly processes are made that way. The best idea is to marry up or inherit money. I often amuse myself imagining Melville (plug in your favorite writer--Emily Bronte? Mark Twain?) at faculty meetings. . At 02:15 PM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Mark, > >Maybe it doesn't come across, but I think *Harvard* would be losing out by not >having Blake, not Blake losing out not to have Harvard. > >I'm not quite sure why people seem to think that academia is the only place for a >writer to make money--via grant or tenure. The job of *professional* may be >required for money, but the profession needn't be directly related to one's >personal writing. In fact, the lowering of standards that seems to be implied in >the pursuit of the writerly profession of grant-mongering & ass-kissing can be >avoided by pursuing a profession aside from one's writing. There seems to be great >resistance to this idea. Is it because people think all they can do is write? If >you can survive as a writer, you certainly have intelligence and skills that can >be parlayed into living wages. And the amount of money to be made in academia is >not particularly impressive--I don't understand why it seems so tantalizing to so >many. > >Perhaps it's cynical or naive, but I'm kind of reassured by the fact that Blake, >Clare, Leopardi, Dickinson, Niedecker, et al., aren't Harvard-approved. It makes >me trust them more. The foregrounding of professionalism will continue as long as >universities are businesses, so maybe writers should quit looking at them as >employment services for writers. > >The point might even be raised that it really shouldn't be writers teaching, but >*teachers*--alot of this discussion has been about writers complaining that >they're not getting enough of the academia pie: but who has said they're >frustrated because they feel they have something to offer as *teachers*? > > >Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Karen--I think your last paragraph is, like the brits say, spot on. But I >> have some problems with your second. Sure, it's two different jobs, and >> some are disinclined or less able to perform the "professional" one. >> Something--a lot--is lost, however, in the foregrounding of that task. Some >> of the high-top crowd have included, say, Blake, Clare, Leopardi, >> Dickinson, Niedecker, and, until recently, virtually everyone in Don >> Allen's anthology (I could tell you what kind of reception my teaching >> Olson at Columbia got in 1968). Can you imagine Harvard's reaction to >> Blake's job application? "Self-publishes, small-press only, and a bit >> eccentric." >> >> At 12:54 PM 10/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >> this matter of making writers dance through such hoops as a >> >> primary part of their professional development, as a primary part of how >> >> they come to the act of writing and publishing, leaves a helluvalot to be >> >> desired... >> > >> >It certainly does, but we also have to remember that the hoops are for those >> >who want to pursue that kind of *professional* development, which is >> different >> >for many of us from our *writerly* development. >> > >> >They seem like two different jobs. Some people pursue one or the other, and >> >some pursue both. I think there's a sense that those who pursue the >> >professional trappings are somehow less "pure" than those who don't. But >> what's >> >wrong with someone doing the whole national publisher/award/nepotism >> circuit if >> >it suits them? To think that the high-top crowd loses out on something >> because >> >there are all these credentialed professional poets out there seems silly. >> >Harvard isn't going to hire someone with a single chapbook to their >> credit, no >> >matter *how* good the chapbook is. Not because Harvard is evil, but because >> >it's a business. >> > >> >And I can't help but wonder with amusement if perhaps one reason there's >> such a >> >call for those with heavy, specifically national publishing credits isn't >> >because the university's don't know *how* to judge poetry, and figure they'd >> >better go with someone someone else has recognized. The cover your ass factor >> >seems high. >> > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:38:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Judging the profession In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You don't get weather jokes? At 10:58 AM 10/5/98 +1300, you wrote: >> The job of *professional* may be >> required for money, but the profession needn't be directly related to >one's >> personal writing. > >I agree with you, Karen, but as a professional in a field pretty much >unrelated to writing, I can tell you that it can be a drain. I'd love to >spend more time writing and reading, but after 50-60 hours a week pushing >pixels, tweaking code and wrestling with management, there's not much >energy left to do much more than crash on the sofa in front of South Park. > >Also, maybe I'm idealising the writing community, but it would be nice to >hang out with some people who have actually _heard_ of "Blake, Clare, >Leopardi, Dickinson, Niedecker et al". Though, come to think of it, 90% of >the writing community here wouldn't have heard of most of them either... > >There's also the question of education: if you spend most of your life >learning about torts or aortas or depreciation or cumulonimbus, it doesn't >leave much time to learn about caesurae or metonymy or mesostics. It would >be lovely to devote one's life to writing and art, but Lagavulin don't grow >on trees. > >Overall, though, I'm glad that I have a profession and interests outside of >writing: they inform and cross-pollinate one another. But we can't all be >polymaths, and they can detract from one another as well. > >Another barrier might be the attitude of some within the arts community to >those who have mainstream careers. We're breadheads, geeks, yuppies, >corporate drones or dupes of the military-industrial complex. I once had a >brief relationship with a post-grad student. She'd read an essay of mine, >and after we'd been going out for a little while, she asked me where I >taught. When I said, no, I'm not an academic, I haven't even studied >English formally since I was 16, she replied (only half joking) "My God, >I'd never have gone out with you if I'd known you were a meteorologist!" > >I too have a little more respect for the likes of Stevens, WCW or Holub >because they had careers outside of the word business. But it's bloody hard >taking yourself seriously as a writer when virtually no-one you work with >takes writing seriously. Which makes me all the more grateful for the few >of my friends who are writers, and of course for this list. Without it, my >work mailbox would have nothing but spam, Clinton jokes, and notes headed >"Your website is broke. Fix it." > > > Can anyone tell that it's a Monday morning? > > Tom Beard. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: Zorn/Hejinian Collaboration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm fond of the Zorn/Hejininian album, but I would neither recommend it to Zorn fans (at least to the fans of Masada and Naked City) nor tell people they should only listen to it if they are interested in Zorn's more obscure album. I think it was an under-rated album. A set of "new traditions" that didn't draw as much attention as Masada. It's elegant, has interesting instrumental arrangements, and is well. . . creepy. Eerie like that earlier piece written for Kronos, "Forbidden Fruit." At any rate. . . it isn't one of those off-the-cuff recorded-in-an-afternoon with a duck call and a glass of water albums. . . There's a lot of Zorn I regret having ever bought, but this isn't one of them. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:19:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: east coast travels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'll be at the Laura (Riding) Jackson conference in Ithaca this week, staying at the Hillside Inn (and still wondering where the events are!); then I'll be in NYC on October 10 to join the book party for _Close Listening: Poetry and the Performed Word_, edited by Charles Bernstein. The event, as I gather, will be at Double Happiness, 173 Mott Street, just south of Broome, from 4-6 pm. I trust someone will get me a map... Hope to see some listees in these places, as well as touches of autumn. I'll be the one with the mostest jetlag, I trust. best, Susan Schultz U of Hawai`i ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:09:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Reference -- Augustine? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, all -- just emerging from a period of relative silence after the Summer. I have a backlog of e-mails to backchannel to people on the list, so I hope they'll forgive me this one. I've come across, somewhere, the "city on the hill", but I'm lacking the direct reference to the original concept; as I remember, the "point" is wrapped up in the idea that the city can be seen from all around. I thought I might have gotten the image from Jorie Graham's work, but I've looked and looked and haven't been able to find it, and, in any case, I'm pretty sure it's not originally hers. I have a feeling that it might be from Augustine's _City of God_. If anybody can provide me with a [any] references, I'd be very grateful. -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu sdedeo@naic.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:41:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Reference -- Augustine? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, but as used in this country--usualy misused--it comes from Winthrop's sermon on the Arabella in 1630 before the first wave of Puritans hit the shore (they had sent out a couple of ships in '28 and '29, but the Arabella flotilla was the main group--a thousand settlers). Usually referred to as if Winthrop had been saying that the Puritan commonwealth and its capitol, Boston, would be the New Jerusalem, but in fact (as is perfectly and uncontestedly clear in the text) he was issuing a warning: we're gonna be like up on a hill where everybody can see us if we fuck up. The misinterpretation, which goes back at least 150 years, speaks volumes. At 08:09 PM 10/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all -- just emerging from a period of relative silence after the >Summer. I have a backlog of e-mails to backchannel to people on the list, >so I hope they'll forgive me this one. > >I've come across, somewhere, the "city on the hill", but I'm lacking the >direct reference to the original concept; as I remember, the "point" is >wrapped up in the idea that the city can be seen from all around. I >thought I might have gotten the image from Jorie Graham's work, but I've >looked and looked and haven't been able to find it, and, in any case, I'm >pretty sure it's not originally hers. I have a feeling that it might be >from Augustine's _City of God_. If anybody can provide me with a [any] >references, I'd be very grateful. > >-- Simon > >http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html >sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu >sdedeo@naic.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:56:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... http://www.unf.edu/mudlark _________________________________________ New and On View MUDLARK POSTER NO. 14 (1998) _The Saddest Man on Earth_ by Alan Kaufman * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Alan Kaufman's most recent book is WHO ARE WE? (DAVKA Limited Editions, 1998, ISBN 1-881822-01-X; distributed by SPD, 1-800-869-7553.) His other books include BEFORE I WAKE (Cyborg Productions, 1992) and THE NEW GENERATION: FICTION FOR OUR TIME FROM AMERICA'S WRITING PROGRAMS (Anchor/Doubleday, 1987). An anthology and documentation of 'Outsider' poetry from the 1950's to the present day, THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN POETRY, which he has done with S.A. Griffin, is in press. It will be available from Thunder's Mouth in April 1999. Kaufman's poems have been translated into Swedish by Carl Johaan Valgren and have appeared in Sweden in _Bonniers Litterra Magasin_ and _Pequod_. His work has also been translated into German and has appeared in SLAM! POETRY, HEFTIGE DICTUNG AUS DEN USA and AM LIT: NEU LITERATUR AUS DEN USA, both of which were published by Druckhaus Galrev (Berlin), and _Chelsea Hotel: A Magazine Of The Arts_ (Frankfurt). He has performed his work in Germany, too, by invitation at Literaturhaus Hamburg, Literaturhaus Frankfurt, and Literaturwerkstatt Berlin, among other places. In the U.S. Kaufman's work has been published in many print anthologies and magazines, including ALOUD: VOICES FROM THE NUYORICAN POETS CAFE (Henry Holt) and COFFEEHOUSE POETRY ANTHOLOGY (Bottom Dog Press); _Witness_, _Tikkun_, and _Long Shot_. Online his poems and essays can be found in _Salon_, _ZuZu's Petals_, _Poetry Cafe_, et cetera. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * William Slaughter, Editor _________________________ mudlark@unf.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:27:48 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Reference -- Augustine? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: > Yup, but as used in this country--usualy misused--it comes from Winthrop's > sermon on the Arabella in 1630 before the first wave of Puritans hit the > shore (they had sent out a couple of ships in '28 and '29, but the Arabella > flotilla was the main group--a thousand settlers). Usually referred to as > if Winthrop had been saying that the Puritan commonwealth and its capitol, > Boston, would be the New Jerusalem, but in fact (as is perfectly and > uncontestedly clear in the text) he was issuing a warning: we're gonna be > like up on a hill where everybody can see us if we fuck up. The > misinterpretation, which goes back at least 150 years, speaks volumes. Therefore lett us choose life, that wee, and our Seede, may live; by obeyeing his voyce, and cleaveing to him, for hee is our life, and our prosperity. Winthrop's text was Matthew 5:14. Bradford's _Of Plymouth Plantation_ a contemporaneous text sans pax americus mythopoetics is necessary next to Winthrop's "Model of Christian Charity." Although ron reagan's son has produced a pre-death eulogy with 'city on the hill' titling. mc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:48:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: rimbaud & the vowels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now hold hard there, Gancieville! A J Sondheim writes "as if". I can't hear his "I'm Arthur Rimbaud" as a self-aggrandizement, but rather as the answer to the question "How do I know?" I take AJS's poetic point to be, that what's outrageous about Rimbaud's "Voyelles" IS just this, that the fr poet is asserting himself as the ground of his k-edge--of the vowels as of, potentially, everything. David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:52:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: my brief absence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If i didn't live on an island without a liquor store, i'd have drunk myself to death after that bp conference in Vancouver last weekend. It's a shame that panel was the only one each of us attended but i think what Frank Davey was trying to say was that he was sorry that all of the recent focus(since bp died, 10 years) has been on the life long poem, the martyrology, which lent itself to study when the radical, the empheral, the enactment, were the even more important contributions to the discourse and to us individually holding the door open for us as he did so many doors at once, and tho i love the martyrology , i can't help but simpathize with frank and daphne marlatt tried to tie the martyrology into her own autobiographical work and family history, and fred wah wasn't he saying he was more interested in being bp than anal eyezing him. I was happy to see Ellie there she was looking fine fine as wine. George Bowering, I hope John Cretin has the sense to appoint him to the senate, or lieutenant governor, he should have his own television show, nobody'd listen to Gsowski zzzzzzzzz. I must confess, the architecture there creeps me out, it was tomblike, and you got beer in a little room that looked like the basement of the police station where they took your picture. It was like all these brains were still playing in the garage forty years later. There were some excellent readings, lillian allen was excellent, she told a story about the jury at the canada council which bp happened to be part of voting not to accept dub poetry for the poetry grants program and bp threatened to go to the newspapers so they changed their wicked ways and opened the door for lillian allen and clifton joseph, dub poets, i almost went home before Genn Lam? the twenty year old 6 foot asian canadian poet, wow, glad i stayed. vagina both lillian allen and genn lam began their performances with the same word vagina. sharon thesen and marja hindmarch agreed it was in reference to bp's book of the body, organ music. Asok Mathur with his wacky poem of Ganesh born? in Calgary being interrogated by the gumshoe was another treat. AnneMarie Harte Baker cybergranny she should have a teevee show of her own i've seen her for years but i never saw the charisma she has in performance, claiming coyote back for the red? indians. the focus group, sort of like a well behaved happening, they were cool, hipsters, kerouac and bp would have dug them, i did. Clint Burnham was as good as ever, where was Lisa Robertson? where was Paul Dutton, or Rafael Barreta-rivera. Jeff Derksen tried on Frank O'Hara and it was good, McCaffery was very good, Judith Copithorne was right the geezers r us, she was the only spontaneous performer who got the audience to make a poem of themselves, Gerry Gilbert, Vancouver's Dante, was in fine form and appropriately the ultimate reader of the night. By and large i'll remember this conference as a shabby affair, you can't call for papers two months before the event, there should have been more of an attempt to get the audience together, some food event or availability, some beverages, some art show or dance, there was little promotion, they were saving the posters to sell for souvenirs, no touch of Karen and Brian de Beck in this affair, no attention or care for the details that Charles Watts might have provided, only Renee Rodin mentioned Charles, dedicating a poem to him, what Frank was saying is more true here, but the martyrology is pretty radical as far as american poetry goes, canadian poetry has had the advantage of the influence and efforts of bp for thirty years it doesn't seem as radical to us, in canada the streets are paved with poetry, there's a poet behind every chainsaw, every twelve guage, bp split the nucleus of lingo, gave those phonemes more independence, graphemes, where was lionel kearns, where was victor coleman, where was bill smith, this conference could have gone on for a week, why was there no video of the proceedings(at least the readings) they didn't expect much they got more than they expected but it still wasn't enough, it felt ghoulish more important in the resume than on the stage, like an academic mining claim, sadly. Margaret Atwood probably didn't even know about it, she might have come. Speaking of great canadian poets, Joni Mitchell has a new album out, they're not playing it much here yet, anybody in cincinnati hearing it, anybody in atlanta? billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:21:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Robert Lax's address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ward Tietz Date: 04 October 1998 14:50 Subject: Robert Lax's address |As far as I know Robert Lax still lives on the Greek island of Patmos. We |performed his Black/White Oratorio last year in Geneva with the assistance |of John Beer who was helping Lax prepare his papers for an archive that's |been recently established at the Friedsam Library at St. Bonaventure |University in N.Y. You might try them for an exact address. Patmos isn't a big place. I am pretty sure Robert Lax, Patmos, Greece would find him. L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:51:17 -0400 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: my brief absence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Billy, Is Joni coming to Canada on the current tour? I'm going to Mad. Sq. Garden for the first time since 10th grade to watch her be a speck of light a mile downslope. Also, an article on her in this sunday's nytimes ragazine. Hightlights her antifeminism, I think unfairly, and asserts some sort of unmanagable and insecure egotism on her behalf. Poopoo to the writer, she is the genius she says she is. --R Democracy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:36:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: San Francisco Spicer celebrations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone, this is Kevin Killian. To launch our books "Poet Be Like God: Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance," and "The House that Jack Built" (Jack Spicer's collected lectures), Lew Ellingham, Peter Gizzi and I are having a double event in San Francisco. This Tuesday October 6 City Lights Books is having a book party for us (7:00 p.m.) . . . 261 Columbus Avenue at Jack Kerouac Alley. On Friday November 6 there will be a more elaborate affair in which many who knew and worked with Jack Spicer, and who now find themselves "characters" in our biography, will meet and read one poem apiece by Spicer. This event will be held at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, 701 Mission Street at Third Street in San Francisco; it's co-sponsored by Yerba Buena Center for the Arts' "In Conversation Series" in conjunction with their forthcoming exhibit "Ecotopia," and by Small Press Traffic, part of its year-long examination of the "New American Poetry" anthology. That's at 7:30, seating extremely limited, call (415) 978-ARTS (Yerba Buena Center Box Office) for more information--or watch this space. So if you're in town on either of these nights, come on by and give me the secret poetics list handshake . . . Thanks, Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:04:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Laura (Riding) Jackson Event at Cornell In-Reply-To: <7d1a1c11.36180297@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >I'll be at the Laura (Riding) Jackson conference in Ithaca this week, staying >at the Hillside Inn (and still wondering where the events are!); >best, Susan Schultz >U of Hawai`i To Susan, Louis Stroffolino and other listees attending the Laura (Riding) Jackson symposium at Cornell later this week -- The first event is the exhibition opening and reception on Thursday at 4:45, 2B Kroch Library, an underground architectural wonder which you enter from my very own place of employment, Olin Library, "the one that looks like a giant IBM card." I'm reposting below the draft schedule Charles Bernstein provided to this list a while back; so far I have seen nothing more detailed. If you can find your way to the Library you'll be where you need to be. Hillside Inn is just off campus, but be prepared to walk uphill quite a bit. Oh, and if you see a thin, fortysomething, harried-looking guy at the Olin Reference Desk behind a nameplate that reads "Fred Muratori," please say hello. If nothing else, I can tell you where the bathrooms are, as well as suggest places to eat. -- Fred M. ***** DRAFT PROGRAM*** Laura (Riding) Jackson and the Promise of Language: A Symposium and Exhibition (all program events take place in Conference Room, 2B Kroch Library, unless otherwise indicated) Pre-Symposium Activities: An Introduction to L(R)J (Roger Gilbert and Jennifer Ashton, Department of English, Cornell University (dates and times to be determined, possibly in cooperation with Alan Clark on Thursday, October 8, 1998 at 9:00 a.m.) Thursday, October 8, 1998 10:45 a.m. Welcoming Remarks: Alan Clark, H. Thomas Hickerson 11:00-12:30 Reading Laura (Riding) Jackson Chair: Jennifer Ashton Carla Billitteri "Fables of Meaning: History and Storytelling in Laura Riding's Short Fiction" Chris Stroffolino "[Prose including the Word Woman, The Telling, Four Unposted Letters to Catherine, Contemporaries and Snobs, etc.] Susan Schultz [L(R)J's fiction] 12:30- 2:00 Lunch break (on your own) 2:00 - 3:30 "Truth Begins where Poetry Ends" Chair: Jerome McGann Olin 106 Steven Meyer "An Ill-Matched Correspondence: Laura (Riding) Jacksonís Gertrude Stein -- Figure of SPEECH, Figure of WRITING, Figure of POETRY Mark Jacobs "Knowing Everything: An Introduction to Laura (Riding) Jackson Alan Clark "LRJ: The Telling and Before" 3:30-4:00 Coffee Break Olin 106 Kroch Library Exhibition Gallery 4:00 Introduction to the Exhibition and Tour: Margaret Nichols 4:30 Welcoming remarks: Sarah Thomas, Theodore Wilentz 4:45 Opening Reception 6:30 or 7:00 Dinner for L(R)J panels and Board members Friday, October 9, 1998 9:00 - 10:00 Elizabeth Friedmann "Laura Riding and Laura (Riding) Jackson: The One Story" (introduced by Joan Wilentz) 10:00-10:30 Coffee break 10:30 - Noon Researching Laura (Riding) Jackson Chair: Lorna Knight Patrizia Sione: "The Laura (Riding) Jackson and Schuyler B. Jackson Papers" Nick Everett: "The G.S. Fraser - Laura (Riding) Jackson correspondence" Amber Vogel: "The Breath of Letters: Poetry and Poetics in Laura (Riding) Jackson's Correspondence" Noon - 1:30 Lunch Break (on your own) 1:30 - 3:00 Panel: That Being Be Well Spoken Chair: William Harmon Lisa Samuels "Imagining What you Don't Know: Anarchism is Not Enough" John Nolan "That Being Be Well Spoken: The Telling and after" Barrett Watten "Laura Riding's Horizon Shifts" 3:00 - 3:30 Coffee break 3:30 - 4:30 Publishing Laura (Riding) Jackson Chair: Theodore Wilentz Alfredo di Palchi "How By Chance I Discovered Laura (Riding) Jackson" Dan Mandel [literary agency and the works of L(R)J] Michael Braziller "Publishing Laura (Riding) Jackson 4:30 - 5:00 Concluding Remarks: Laura (Riding) Jackson and the Promise of Language: Speaker: Charles Bernstein Dinner Break 8:15 p.m Laura (Riding) Jackson and Friends: An Evening of Readings and Reminiscences" Host: James Tyler Including: Peggy Friedmann [Laura (Riding) Jackson in her own voice - excerpts from recordings) Robert Nye [reading] Richard Foerster, poet and editor, Chelsea David Lehman [reading] Jay Ansill [L(R)J to music] James Tyler on printing L(R)J Members of the Laura (Riding) Jackson Home Preservation Foundation [video presentation] ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Laura (Riding) Jackson Event at Cornell - Emendation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oops. If I'd read the schedule more closely I would have noticed that there are indeed many things happening before the 4:45 reception. My apologies. -- Fred ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:35:57 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: my brief absence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thnks billy for the unreveiling of the bp affair took me there inside of it but seems to me that the longpoem is a typewriter in the world of computers, the soundbyte winning over the epic ear singing the chantspeech & even if martyrology is on the shelf next A & Cantos & maximus we have forgotten how to use them unless maybe Ted Nelson's notion of xanadu be the quick fix longterm miekal [hypermedia works by Miekal And, Liaizon Wakest, Lyx Ish & Allegra Fi Wakest] -Qazingulaza- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: rimbaud & the vowels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, David, this is the Carlo Parcelli equation of the listing. Second, of course you are right as far as interpretation dictates right and wrong but the point I wanted to make was larger. At one moment we're talking about the gains and inevitable losses of the poetry game vis a vis grants, prizes and other such bullshit and the next minute Allan has thrown on his little red riding hood cloak and offered a very well hammered, oft revised, not spontaneous or off the cuff poem as an escape hatch. I was left holding on to a scrap of A.'s lapel and I ran with that. I don't want to critique in detail A.'s offering. Frankly, I liked it. But Jenn/N. was in it and that had to become my hook to keep the argument in line. Otherwise the tangents will wear your ass out. I wrote all that shit on Saturday in my book store which was packed all day.I had worked alone twelve hours on Friday and did another 13 hours alone on Saturday. Close exegesis is not possible under those circumstances. But gross considerations like grants and prizes are. Personally, I don't like people who run and I really don't like it in poets. A. was clearly hiding in his poem and I, having committed my time, felt compelled to draw him out. 'Scuse me now I'm gonna go earn a buck.---Carlo Parcelli David bromige wrote: > > Now hold hard there, Gancieville! A J Sondheim writes "as if". I > can't hear his "I'm Arthur Rimbaud" as a self-aggrandizement, but rather as > the answer to the question "How do I know?" I take AJS's poetic point to > be, that what's outrageous about Rimbaud's "Voyelles" IS just this, that > the fr poet is asserting himself as the ground of his k-edge--of the vowels > as of, potentially, everything. David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:38:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: New American Poetry reissue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there a reissue of Donald Allen's _The New American Poetry_ planned? I don't mean the revised version called _The Postmoderns_; I mean the original 1960 book? I thought I heard of such a thing (perhaps from California). Can anybody give me information (release date etc.)? Thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: jlm8047@usl.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry McGuire Organization: USL Subject: Re: judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have been out of the loop(s) lately, trying to steer (forget "run," "manage," etc.) a yearly writing conference with a writer's contest attached. Not only the contest but the whole thing puts me in sick mind of the current discussion. Too many enfeebled folks writing shaky checks to enter their couplets and quatrains and diary notes; to sit in a workshop with a "renowned" writer they've never heard of without even realizing they're entitled to bring a MS to be discussed; to meet agents who think such things and such people are useful only for supplying a good laugh with their pals; to catch some kind of magical spark that will turn them into Danielle Steele. Etc. By the end of the conference (judged to be a "success") I was ready to weep and moan, if in fact not publically weeping and moaning (but what is this?). And this is a "good" conference, that has a solid group of regular attendees who profess to benefit from the thing every year, who _thank_ me, and profusely, for doing this for/to them. Meanwhile, I feel like judging again and again and again: you--don't waste your money; you--don't waste your time; you--look in your heart and write; you--grow up first; you--get a real job. Who'd be left? Not me. As to the contest, this year (for the first time) we disallowed submissions from anyone presently employed by or a student at this university. And that helped, at least it helped me with what's left of my conscience. And though I wrung my hands and sweated and cursed to find out that two of the best poets I know hadn't even made the first cut in the poetry contest (yes, I peeked, because I'm the Director, and I could), fate and the weirdnesses of readerly taste and judgment produced an interesting mix of the "known" (V. Shipley) and "unknown" (but very fine, and not at all "conventional"--Stella Brice) in that particular contest. And none of the winners were known to any of the readers before the prizes were awarded. And yet the whole thing still felt potluckish. (And what _that_ was was a "contest" in which you submitted not your work but just your name, and they'd draw the winners out of a hat [or a pot?] and then select some of your work to publish out of a stipulated number of poems sent. And I thought it was a witty comment on contests generally, and it certainly doesn't hurt anyone or anything: if it winds up publishing someone undeserving, what doesn't? At least they'll be a different bunch of undeservers.) I didn't read all the poetry submissions (or drama or novel or fiction submissions), but I'm sure there were as many good ones chopped out as left in, and I have little confidence that repeating the process would result in _any_ of the winners or runners-up being selected again. Well, maybe this is all just post-conference blues: omne animal triste est post conference. I've had one book of poems published ("over the transom," as we like to say--I like to think of jumping the transoms in the subway instead of paying), and won a few awards, all "small," (though I was largely grateful for each one). None of them ever involved anyone I knew, either by way of "invitation" or judging. Yet crookedness seems epidemic. As (I think) Eliza McGrand said, there are an awful lot of us, so some good, or at least honest, stuff does happen. The problem is to fend off the nausea while you're doing it, if for some reason you feel a need to do it. (To write it off as simple careerism misses the point of all those teenagers and old folks who, as they say, submit.) Anyway, from my point of view, it's a way of supporting small presses--if they'll give me a year's subscription and don't publish their next-door neighbors on a yearly basis, I'll send them fifteen bucks to read my poems. If I enter thirty contests a year, I figure that's a nice piece of change for some people who (thinking as generously as possible) _are_ deserving. And if I hit that lottery once every three or four years, I come close to breaking even. I also occasionally hit the tables at Grand Coushatta casino, in case anyone's wondering. I'm not sure, though, that any such personal narratives are going to (as I'd hoped when I started) add any kind of helpful context to this conversation. This list always strains along the fault lines in poetry, sometimes strains till it bursts, and to claim that one has had a few barely tolerable experiences with contests, grants, etc., may be so much a signal that one has simply whored himself out to the enemy that the experiences invalidate themselves. This is one problem with having enemies who are in important ways your friends. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: WALLACE STEVENS HORROR MOVIE Comments: To: Jerry McGuire In-Reply-To: <3618E4A6.36FEDA8A@usl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was convelescing, abed and fishing up and down the radio dial when, LO, I heard an ad for a horror film (I forget the name, but it's NEW; on the market, etc.)---and the announcer's voice said IT MUST BE PHYSICAL IT MUST GIVE PAIN and IT MUST LEAVE A SCAR ---now, I wonder if they were reading newts to a supine fiction when they made this up....... chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:05:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: A. V. TEXT-FEST #2 Invitation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.angelfire.com/tx/AVTEXTFEST... >Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:48:48 -0700 (PDT) >From: Carlos Adolfo "Guti=C8rrez" Vidal >Subject: A. V. TEXT-FEST #2 Invitation > >******************************************** > >PROXIMAMENTE... > >A. V. TEXT-FEST #2 >tHE hYPERTEXT sTUFF! >Enero de 1999 > > >+ poesia visual >+ instalacion >+ hipertexto >+ ensayo >+ audiopoesia >+ video >+ rave > > >Formas en las que puedes participar: > >+ Con poemas visuales o audiopoemas. >+ Con uno o varios hipertextos, o enviandonos la informacion necesaria >para hacer un vinculo desde >nuestro website. >+ Con algun ensayo sobre literatura experimental o teoria literaria. >+ Con un videotexto. >+ Distribuyendo esta invitacion. > >Todos los materiales recibidos pasaran a formar parte del archivo A. V. >TEXT-FEST, que sera >utilizado en la organizacion de otros festivales y en futuros trabajos >de investigacion. > > >Envia tus trabajos a: > >Alejandro Espinoza Galindo / Bibiana Padilla Maltos >233 Paulin Avenue >P. O. Box 7263 >92231 Calexico, CA >USA >aldonza123@hotmail.com > >Carlos Adolfo Gutierrez Vidal >Mariano Arista 1443 >Colonia Nueva >21100 Mexicali, B. C. >Mexico >bizarre_inc@yahoo.com > > >Fecha limite para la recepcion de trabajos: > >Noviembre de 1998 > > >avtextfest@angelfire.com > >http://www.angelfire.com/tx/AVTEXTFEST > >******************************************** > >A. V. TEXT FEST es un ambicioso proyecto de promocion e investigacion >de las formas mas >vanguardistas de la literatura contemporanea. Fue creado en 1997 como >una respuesta a la intensa >campa~a de promocion de la ciudad de Mexicali como un polo de >desarrollo industrial. > >Creemos que lo que identifica a una sociedad con respecto a otra no es >su modo de produccion, sino >aquello que guarda para el futuro. Asi que mientras unos empresarios >deciden restaurar edificios >historicos y reciclar viejas naves industriales, y mientras las >familias de pioneros atesoran fotografias >y objetos de uso diario; nosotros hemos preferido recopilar algo que >pocas ciudades se han atrevido >a tomar en cuenta: teoria literaria reciente y ejemplos de las >propuestas de escritura mas novedosas. > > >El proyecto A. V. TEXT-FEST consta de varias etapas: > >1.- Una convocatoria anual=7F=7F dirigida a aquellos escritores interesados >en donar y exhibir su obra. > >2.- Realizacion de un festival en enero de cada a~o=7F=7F a partir de 1998. > >3.- Publicacion de una memoria anual. > >4.- Configuracion de un archivo que pueda servir para exposic=7F=7Fiones >itinerantes, eventos especiales y >trabajos de investigacion. > >5.- Difusion de los materiales a traves de la internet.=7F=7F=7F > >6.- Formacion de un publico especializado en la materia debido a la >exposicion directa a las obras y a >textos teoricos. > >7.- Promocion de las nuevas formas y tendencias literarias entre los >creadores locales. > >8.- Consolidacion del archivo y p=7F=7Froyeccion de Mexicali como capital >cultural y una plaza de primer >nivel para la literatura de vanguardia. > > >En pocas palabras, nuestra meta a largo plazo es cambiar el perfil >cultural de la ciudad. > >El proyecto A. V. TEXT-FEST ha venido operando des=7F=7Fde 1997, cuando >lanzamos nuestra primera >convocatoria. El primer festival se llevo a cabo los dias 21, 22 y 23 >de enero de 1998, y los fondos >recabados durante la fiesta rave de clausura se donaron a Coesida en >apoyo a su programa de >compra de medicamentos. Una seleccion de los ensayos recibidos se >encuentra disponible en la >WWW desde marzo de este a~o. > >******************************************** > >Relacion de los participantes en el primer festival: > >Jake Berry >Jose Luis Campos >Juan Antonio =7F=7FDi Bella >Sheila Dollente >Alejandro Espinoza Galindo >Carlos Adolfo Gutierrez Vidal >Eduardo Kac >Philadelpho Menezes=7F=7F >Douglas Nufer >Bibiana Padilla Maltos >Harry Polkinhorn >Producciones la Tierra de la Iguana >Doug Rice >Clemente =7F=7FPadin >Nico Vassilakis >Don Webb >Dj Chance >Dj Yahoo >Dj GTEK-7 >Dj Itzae >Dj Tolo > >******************************************** > >Material que puede consultarse en nuestro archivo en la WWW: > >Jake Berry >CYGNUS WOUND > >Eduardo Kac >HOLOPOESIA Y MAS ALLA > >Philadelpho Menezes >POESIA INTERSIGNO > >Douglas Nufer >RESPALDA AL MUNDO > >Harry Polkinhorn >POESIA VISUAL EN LATINOAMERICA > >Clemente Padin >=EF LA IDENTIDAD DE LA POESIA EXPERIMENTAL >=EF LA POESIA EXPERIMENTAL EN AMERICA LATINA > >Don Webb=7F >ACERCA DE LA ESCRITURA > > >avtextfest@angelfire.com > >http://www.angelfire.com/tx/AVTEXTFEST > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. Clippinger" Subject: Re: New American Poetry reissue In-Reply-To: <01bdf076$3f13a0a0$49cc0398@DKellogg.Dukeedu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From a recent letter from Don Allen, he tells me that California is re-issuing the original Grove edition sometime this year. All best, David Clippinger At 11:38 AM 10/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >Is there a reissue of Donald Allen's _The New American Poetry_ planned? I >don't mean the revised version called _The Postmoderns_; I mean the original >1960 book? I thought I heard of such a thing (perhaps from California). >Can anybody give me information (release date etc.)? Thanks. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > David Clippinger Assistant Professor of English Penn State University 100 University Drive Monaca, PA 15061 (724) 773-3884 (phone) (724) 773-3557 (fax) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + One must not come to feel that he has a thousand threads in his hands, He must somehow see the one thing; This is the level of art There are other levels But there is no other level of art George Oppen, from "Of Being Numerous" + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:07:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Judging Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and garry here i thought you were just trying to get a list of the good ones to suck up to. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:30:00 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: DC area listers Content-Type: text/plain someone brought up the Zorn collaboration, so this isn't too off the poetics subject I suppose... two free concerts coming up at the library of congress: Cecil Taylor February 12th 1999 John Zorn's Masada String Trio April 9th 1999 I don't know when the "free tickets" will be available for pick up, but I'm sure they'll all go like the A.Braxton tickets earlier this year (missed it and am still a little bitter). jperez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:28:57 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Rimbaud's Voyelles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Billy Little wrote: > > takes one to no one > > billy little > 4 song st. > nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > > Go ahead and say something true > before the big turd eats You > You can say any last thing in Your poem. > > -Alice Notley What, Herr Kindergartner? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:20:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: San Francisco Spicer celebrations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: > Hi everyone, this is Kevin Killian. To launch our books "Poet Be Like God: > Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance," and "The House that Jack > Built" (Jack Spicer's collected lectures), Lew Ellingham, Peter Gizzi and I > are having a double event in San Francisco. -- Kevin -- sorry to have to miss the event! These two books brightened my summer considerably. You -- & others on the list -- may enjoy the addition -- as of this morning -- to the Eric Mottram website: I put up an audiofile (RealAudio) of Mottram reading his "Elegy for Jack Spicer." And slide your cursor over the pix on the EM home&away page. http://www.albany.edu/mottram & my favorite lines from poems read this morning: Chris Stroffolino (from "Over and Over" in _Downtown Brooklyn_ #7): "....If there were no sex / before marriage, we'd be married before we're born." Pierre ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: A nation of nothing but poetry ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EXTENDED PLAY "warped by concern" A nation of nothing but poetry academics. A nation of nothing but poetry adjuncts. A nation of nothing but poetry administrators. A nation of nothing but poetry anthologies. A nation of nothing but poetry applicants. A nation of nothing but poetry awards. A nation of nothing but poetry bibliographers. A nation of nothing but poetry biographies. A nation of nothing but poetry blurbs. A nation of nothing but poetry careers. A nation of nothing but poetry cartoons. A nation of nothing but poetry celebrations. A nation of nothing but poetry clips. A nation of nothing but poetry conferences. A nation of nothing but poetry contests. A nation of nothing but poetry critics. A nation of nothing but poetry deadlines. A nation of nothing but poetry discourse. A nation of nothing but poetry disbursements. A nation of nothing but poetry editors. A nation of nothing but poetry educators. A nation of nothing but poetry endorsements. A nation of nothing but poetry essays. A nation of nothing but poetry faculty. A nation of nothing but poetry fees. A nation of nothing but poetry fellowships. A nation of nothing but poetry gossip. A nation of nothing but poetry grants. A nation of nothing but poetry hatchet jobs. A nation of nothing but poetry hustling. A nation of nothing but poetry imbroglio. A nation of nothing but poetry in-the-schools. A nation of nothing but poetry jobs. A nation of nothing but poetry jockeying. A nation of nothing but poetry judges. A nation of nothing but poetry kudos. A nation of nothing but poetry lineage. A nation of nothing but poetry listserves. A nation of nothing but poetry magazines. A nation of nothing but poetry mentors. A nation of nothing but poetry nationalists. A nation of nothing but poetry networks. A nation of nothing but poetry non-profits. A nation of nothing but poetry pals. A nation of nothing but poetry panels. A nation of nothing but poetry papers. A nation of nothing but poetry pontificating. A nation of nothing but poetry professors. A nation of nothing but poetry publicity. A nation of nothing but poetry publishers. A nation of nothing but poetry qualifications. A nation of nothing but poetry questionnaires. A nation of nothing but poetry reputations. A nation of nothing but poetry reviews. A nation of nothing but poetry slams. A nation of nothing but poetry stars. A nation of nothing but poetry students. A nation of nothing but poetry therapists. A nation of nothing but poetry translators. A nation of nothing but poetry use value. A nation of nothing but poetry vendettas. A nation of nothing but poetry wars. A nation of nothing but poetry workshops. A nation of nothing but poetry x-men. A nation of nothing but poetry yeomen. A nation of nothing but poetry zealots. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:31:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Laura (R) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Susan, if you have time/inclination could you please post a report on the Laura (Riding) Jackson conference..... thanks Elizabeth >Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:19:51 EDT >From: Susan Schultz >Subject: Re: east coast travels > >I'll be at the Laura (Riding) Jackson conference in Ithaca this week, staying >at the Hillside Inn (and still wondering where the events are!); then I'll be >in NYC on October 10 to join the book party for _Close Listening: Poetry and >the Performed Word_, edited by Charles Bernstein. The event, as I gather, >will be at Double Happiness, 173 Mott Street, just south of Broome, from 4-6 >pm. I trust someone will get me a map... >Hope to see some listees in these places, as well as touches of autumn. >I'll be the one with the mostest jetlag, I trust. > >best, Susan Schultz >U of Hawai`i Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:08:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: The next ten writing experiments (please shoot me when you want me to stop) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 21. Practice thinking in complete sentences. Do not write these down. 22. Be a Platonic "name-giver" of the type described in the _Cratylus_. Work at giving things their exact or "proper" names. Then practice with "misnomers." 23. See if Wittgenstein was right: try to invent a "private language" for your sensations. 24. Adopt a variety of social "identities" in your writing (race, ethnicity, class, sexual identity). However, avoid any explicit "identifying" reference in the poem itself (e.g. don't use the word "barrio" in your chicano poems). 25. Invent a private slang (a la Lester Young); attempt to get as many people as you can to use the words you coin. Don't use these words in your writing; rather, conceive of the invention of this language as an independent poetic activity. 26. Write "vocalese lyrics" to a recorded jazz solo. 27. Practice speaking in blank verse as "naturally" as possible. 28. Create your own avant-garde movement; make sure you officially dissolve the movement after 6 months or a year. 29. Invent an imaginary city, complete with geography, history, architecture, prominent citizens, etc... Keep a sort of "bible" of all the information you compile. Then write poems set in this city. 30. Write nothing but sestinas and pantoums for a month. Then "cannibilize" them, using the best lines to write other poems. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Re: money for poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved writing among poets who win anything. Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:47:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: money for poets In-Reply-To: <199810052021.QAA29919@relay.thorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? just curious.......... c On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Poetry Project wrote: > I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any > particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & > angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, > I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved > writing among poets who win anything. > > Anselm Berrigan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:59:41 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: html and poetry Content-Type: text/plain in august(?) the best way of getting poetry on the web was discussed and gifs/jpegs were brought up...I promised to bring addresses for gif/jpg-crunching programs that would lead to better load times here's what a friend suggested www.boxtopsoft.com (mac and pc) www.sitejazz.com (mac only I think) haven't used them yet, but both sites offer demo downloads, and I personally have a clear conscience in using demos indefinitely for non-profit (or anti-profit) projects; but if you are going the profit route the products are fairly cheap and to anyone out there scanning the stuff in, remember to downsample your scans, screens are only 72 dpi (what a fool I am/was) jperez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:15:47 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: money for poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... > but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" > and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? > just curious.......... Yes, winning $100 in a competition is not going to improve one's writing by much, but getting a few grand for a grant, major award or fellowship could let one devote a few months to writing, which should help a little bit. And some people try to make a living from writing: a friend of mine does so, and even a few dollars here and there make valuable additions to the scraps of royalties, grants and review fees that she gets. I don't think we're talking about "accumulation of money" in this case. Even for poets with well-paying day jobs, a small award might help them take their writing more seriously (as much due to the recognition as for the dough), perhaps taking a month off to polish up a manuscript. Tom Beard. > > I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any > > particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & > > angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, > > I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved > > writing among poets who win anything. > > > > Anselm Berrigan > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: L.A. reading Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan Wheeler (she of _Smokes_ and _Bag 'o' Diamonds_ and the LIST) reads at Loyola Marymount University 7:30 Tuesday 10/6 McIntosh Center in Sullivan Hall Los Angeles 7900 Loyola Blvd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:03:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: time bought borrowed or stolen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is time bought to write better than time stolen or borrowed? I'm all for giving grants to poets, even though poets will write with or without them. I admire the effort to piece together a living from poetry. My idea was to become an academic (not in an English dept.) in order to support myself as a poet. But I woke up one day to discover that I had become an academic instead* of a poet. So about 10 months ago, about the same time I joined the list, I redefined myself as a poet. I will still write literary criticism in my "field" (and not in a perfunctory way) but I have reverted back to my original plan. In fact this was a new year's resolution. I have still not "come out of the closet" about this to everyone I know; perhaps that is for 1999. Some people believe that "Beauty is a rare thing / so few drink at its fountain." According to this line of thinking you might have whole centuries in certain countries where no good poetry is written. The alternative is the idea that beauty is not at all rare. The best 100 Romanian poets contain all of poetry, so that someone knowing only Romanian (or Finnish) could have a perfectly full life (poetically speaking) without knowing any other languages or relying on translations. This was Borges' idea, and I believe it (or find it comforting) on some level. So who votes for "rare beauty" and who votes for Romania? My best to all of you, Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: html and poetry In-Reply-To: <19981005205941.23674.qmail@hotmail.com> from "james perez" at Oct 5, 98 01:59:41 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's true that most of the monitors out there today won't give you anything more than 72 dpi, but like everything else in the computer industry screen resolutions will improve in time. And, depending on the subject matter and your purposes, there may be archival value to scanning the poetry at a much higher resolution, say 300 dpi. (This is a common, indeed low-end, benchmark in the digital library community.) You can always throw away information once you have it, but it'd be a shame for the only record of someone's work to be a low-res. digital facsimile. It all depends on your needs. Not to nit-pick James's advice, just to offer another set of considerations. Also, it occurs to me that maybe a useful project/service for the EPC would be to draw up a set of guidelines/recommendations for this sort of thing? Matt > > in august(?) the best way of getting poetry on the web was discussed and > gifs/jpegs were brought up...I promised to bring addresses for > gif/jpg-crunching programs that would lead to better load times > > here's what a friend suggested > > www.boxtopsoft.com (mac and pc) > www.sitejazz.com (mac only I think) > > haven't used them yet, but both sites offer demo downloads, and I > personally have a clear conscience in using demos indefinitely for > non-profit (or anti-profit) projects; but if you are going the profit > route the products are fairly cheap > > and to anyone out there scanning the stuff in, remember to downsample > your scans, screens are only 72 dpi (what a fool I am/was) > > jperez > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:15:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: judging time bought borrowed or stolen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > Is time bought to write better than time stolen or borrowed? I'm all for > giving grants to poets, even though poets will write with or without them. > I admire the effort to piece together a living from poetry. > > > > Some people believe that "Beauty is a rare thing / so few drink at its > fountain." According to this line of thinking you might have whole > centuries in certain countries where no good poetry is written. The > alternative is the idea that beauty is not at all rare. The best 100 > Romanian poets contain all of poetry, so that someone knowing only > Romanian (or Finnish) could have a perfectly full life (poetically > speaking) without knowing any other languages or relying on translations. > This was Borges' idea, and I believe it (or find it comforting) on some > level. So who votes for "rare beauty" and who votes for Romania? > 1) I vote for Romania. But that's not to discount the copious quantities of un-great work in all media in all times. 2) The whole contest issue (I'm catching up on e-mails) is difficult. One one hand, why condemn a judge who asks a friend or student whose work they like to enter? And certainly, I can't condemn a student whose teacher or former teacher likes his/her work. On the other hand, what a waste indeed to enter a pre-determined contest. I believe it is the entrant's right and responsibility to have some idea what kind of contest it is before sending in money and work. And it's the judges' responsibility to do his/her job and read everything, not just what they're predisposed to. I came to the poetry world from the music world, which still seems much worse to me. Contests -- and auditions -- are much more expensive (added costs such as accompanist, clothes, transportation, the instrument itself, time to practice) and rarely anonymous. In addition, your neighbors hate you. What a joy to be able to write at 3 AM. What we _really_ need is patrons. Wealthy, open-minded ones, and plenty to go around. And some substitute for sleep. Still hmming, Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:00:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: Re: San Francisco Spicer celebrations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Kevin: Hope you and Peter and everyone has a great time at the launch--I've been following the reviews of both books! Peter Culley and I were hoping for more information on Friday's 'more elaborate affair', such as---who in particular is reading what one poem of Spicer's each, or has it not yet been worked out? Not that either of us would be able to actually get DOWN there or anything --- just being snoopy. XXXDorothy Trujillo Lusk At 09:36 PM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi everyone, this is Kevin Killian. To launch our books "Poet Be Like God: >Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance," and "The House that Jack >Built" (Jack Spicer's collected lectures), Lew Ellingham, Peter Gizzi and I >are having a double event in San Francisco. This Tuesday October 6 City >Lights Books is having a book party for us (7:00 p.m.) . . . 261 Columbus >Avenue at Jack Kerouac Alley. > >On Friday November 6 there will be a more elaborate affair in which many >who knew and worked with Jack Spicer, and who now find themselves >"characters" in our biography, will meet and read one poem apiece by >Spicer. This event will be held at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, 701 >Mission Street at Third Street in San Francisco; it's co-sponsored by Yerba >Buena Center for the Arts' "In Conversation Series" in conjunction with >their forthcoming exhibit "Ecotopia," and by Small Press Traffic, part of >its year-long examination of the "New American Poetry" anthology. That's >at 7:30, seating extremely limited, call (415) 978-ARTS (Yerba Buena Center >Box Office) for more information--or watch this space. > >So if you're in town on either of these nights, come on by and give me the >secret poetics list handshake . . . Thanks, Kevin K. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:56:57 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Romania maybe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that Romania has its own rare beauty, and while you could know all of what the "100" "best" "Romanian" "poets" have to offer and thus have a poetically albeit Romanianly full life, not knowing Finnish would leave you bereft of everything that is Finnish and not Romanian. what was Pound's remark about the tribe? language is one of the things that distinguishes tribes from each other. I don't think there could have been a Borges in Spanish without Borges' love for late Victorian English. other examples are endless. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:53:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Laura (R) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elizabeth--I'll do my best to send a Riding Jackson report, though there will be some delay (for travel!). Susan S. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:46:36 -0400 Reply-To: BANDREWS@prodigy.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: BETSY ANDREWS Subject: Re: Kyle's didactics / Rachel's energy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm arriving late into this conversation, but having known Rachel's writing pre-Naropa, I have to second the fact that Rachel's poetics weren't purchased in Colorado. Look, Rachel has a mind. She can think for herself. She's really creative. I'm sure the same can be said about anyone on this list, although perhaps not always quite as enthusiastically. I'm very enthusiastic about Rachel's poetics. I'm also very enthusiastic about Rachel's performance which, yes, is full of energy, which--in my book--is a big compliment. Did anyone ever consider that rolled eyeballs are a response to a lackluster performance? Does ANYONE really want to be pigeonholed? On that note, I don't agree with Rachel that her work is, in fact, totally didactic. It moves me. It's not totally anything, thank goodness. Isn't anything that is totalizing totally frightening? Why would anyone apologize for their own didacticism, or their own anything, for that matter? Wouldn't it be refreshing to just read the work as best we can and let the audience think and groove for themselves? May all the world's rhetorical questions cut like icebreakers through so much poetic rhetoric, betsy ---------- > From: Laura E. Wright > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Kyle's didactics / Rachel's energy > Date: Wednesday, September 30, 1998 1:03 PM > > Jordan Davis wrote: > > > Also, with all this talk about didacticism and Kyle's enjoyable stance > > Rachel's wild funny thoughtful reading seems to have been set aside -- do > > writers come out of schools? Rachel seems recognizably _of_ Naropa, in that > > she's much more interested in accumulating energy than in dispelling it with > > asides and remarks, but there's critical thought along with the joy -- is > > this all hooey I'm saying? maybe, anyway, looking forward to further > > readings and writings from Kyle and Rachel -- Jordan > > Still here at Naropa, I have to say that Rachel's work is very different from > most of what goes on here. Rachel arrived at Naropa with her > wild-funny-thoughtfulness and took it with her when she left. Would that there > were a little more of it still around. But I'll take advice from her any day. > > Re. this idea of schools, I think a good school would be one that didn't produce > writers identifiable with that particular school. Otherwise, it's more like a > machine. > > Cranking out Naropa poetry, > Laura W. > > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * > "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:16:38 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Judging Content-Type: text/plain Carlo, Sorry I didn't get the joke the first time, but you must admit you're pretty deadpan. This one's even better-- & I appreciate the political ire. Take care, Mark DuCharme >It was a joke, man. I thought Joe was right on, but needs to cut down on >his caveats. > >But let's play. Poetry has greater "stature" now that it has been >removed from the streets and resides in the academy which of course is >more respectable. This new respectability, largely a product of the >emphasis placed on civic values and the importance of one's own feelings >characteristic of the Neo-Georgian School, has encouraged people from >all walks of life to "make their little poems" as Rod Jellema is fond of >putting it. Ted Turner and Michael Milke(m) write poetry, as does >Secretary of Defense Cohen, Jeanne Kirkpatrick and Caspar Weinberger. >Former CIA Director William Colby published a collection of short lyrics >entitled Swimming Lessons published by Reader's Digest. The late, great >king of military psy-ops, Edward Landsdale is said to have attempted an >epic poem in the style of Vergil embracing the entire history of >Southeast Asia. > >When I purchased part of Paul Linebarger's library, the author of >Psychological Warfare and one of iits major practitioners, I found >"little poems" dealing with the quaint domestic conundrums of life among >Washington's social set like whether he should sit Sukarno's widow next >to Richard Helms at a dinner party. These little literary bon mots, as >Michael Dirda of the Washington Post would undoubtedly describe them, >were wedged in the pages of books on techniques for psychological >torture, a technique in and of itself that would have intrigued Hannah >Arendt. > >Whittaker Chambers was a poet as was Harry Truman's handler, Jimmy >Byrnes. A document recently released as FOIA #10345, reveals that 38% of >the veterans of the Phoenix Program published books of poetry (albeit >mostly with obscure vanity presses) within 10 years of termination of >service so convincing a technique among the criminally sanctioned has >been the Confessional School, the precursor of the New-Georgians. Norman >Schwarzkopf writes love sonnets and villanelles, a fact that would have >really upset his daddy, a former bagman for the DIA. > >There are whole schools of poetry that I'm certain you know nothing >about. There is the Los Alamos School, the Richard Dailey Memorial >Democratic Machine School, the Pinkerton School, the Madison Avenue >School, the Hollywood School, the Manifest Destiny School, the Veterans >of Foreign Wars School (a big school; very sentimental), the School of >the Americas, the Chicago School, the Navy Seals school; I could go on >and on, ad nauseam. But they all have one thing in common; they write >like Gerald Stern. Now that's serious influence. That's "STATURE". > >So how can you question poetry's current "stature". Bill Cohen can adopt >the liberal, do gooder ethos in a poem he's writing from his vacation >home on Monday and fly in on Tuesday just in time to have his handlers >tell him how to handle a lethal airstrike or police action. Poetry has >such incredible "stature" now because it's so flexible. You can say >nothing and insist you're doing it in the name of left-wing radicalism, >even Marxism. You can establish a white middle class, college educated >income between $27,500 and $78,000 per annum, >I'm-so-full-that-I'm-empty-I-have-to-tell-the-world-about-it profile for >poetry then uncritically apply it as a universal standard like "free >market democracies", "technological revolutions", "20% return on your >investments" and other such fictions. Christ, that fucker Robert Hass >did that very thing in his little, kitty litterature box in the Book >World of today's sad and sorry Washington Post The brutal, colonial >history of the Philippines was reduced to that Neo-Georgian sentimental >drivel and then praised and supported with whitey's prizes, fellowships >and grants; the same blood money that some of my friends here on the >list lust after. Read that poor pathetic excuse for a prize-winning poem >and you just smell the stench of oppression. "Returning a Borrowed >Language" or whatever the anthology is called, my ass. Can't wash all >those murders off with that Neo-Georgian technique. Doesn't wash of. >Can't even burn it off. > >So Mark. That is what I mean by "stature". The power to be part of >murderous institutions and at the same time claim to be confronting >them. When I defended some elements of the social science community >Soakl, Gross & Levitt on this list, all I got was ignorant rancor which >amounted to a blind defense of those same institutions. In that case as >it turned out, the stink went right back to Richard Mellon Scaife and >other defenders of the money. > >I'm reminded of the words of another poet here in Washington. The lapsed >Jesuit, misogynist, T.V. pundit John McLaughlin. Big Loud John once >said, "Whores? Whores!? We're all whores! But I'm the whore with the >T.V. show!!" See, all we lack is the fucking ratings. > >Thanks, for the setup Mark. I got a migraine and can't read anyway. >As for Amato. I mentioned his name to The Family. I think he knows what >I mean. The Jimmy Hoffa School. >Mark DuCharme wrote: >> >> C. Parcelli wrote: >> >> >I resent Mr. Amato's harsh and impolitic remarks. How could poetry have >> >achieved its current stature within the culture at large without >> >compromise? >> >> While I appreciate the need to compromise for the sake of realism or >> politesse, I'm just wondering what kind of "current stature" you think >> poetry has achieved. Hmm, maybe we ought to try _less_ compromise; from >> the point of view of visibility or popularity (which, I'll be the first >> to acknowledge, are not the only or necessarily even the most valid >> yardsticks), poetry doesn't seem to have much stature within the culture >> AT LARGE at all. >> >> & Personally, I didn't feel Joe was being so harsh & impolitic... but >> then again, I can sympathize with his point of view, however much it is >> true in the end that capitulations have to be made... >> >> --Mark DuCharme >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:34:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Reports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Report Cisco Systems advertises the worldwide economy, stating that every fourth person on the Web is buying something right now; Cisco Systems has a stake in those numbers signing up every second. IBM has a stake in a shrinking world with technological solutions for everyone representing national characteristics easily recognizable as other. Wired talks about the world coming together presumably with good old boy American know-how and exper- tise. Pipelines are beginning to flow with promises of the Next Big Thing which turned out not to be push technology - so it wasn't quite time to throw away your browser. Anger builds even among those who are franchised, watching from the plateglass window. Net art engorges on itself; the poli- tics of talk replaces the talk of politics. Caress the wires with bigger seductions than old-fashioned pyramid schemes or other blunders; spam has already caught on, delivering more and more personal messages tailored to our vulnerabilities. Hacking has become both commonplace and preposterous as political; while the altered symbol or webpage makes big news, nothing happens except some league scores points for itself on IRC. Starvation and homelessness are hardly virtual, and what really goes down those pipelines are encrypted orders for nuclear fuel wallowing around the marshes of the old USSR - don't doubt it for a second. The reordering of the world has already begun, and won't be stopped by hackers or cultural works carving out territories of speech, manifesto, and protest. Better pack your bags, and I have just the website for you - order your luggage now. - Jennifer _________________________________________________________________________ Report on Not Taking a Weatherman It doesn't take much to see the biochemical and nuclear demise of the world as we know it; the crust will survive, some lifeforms. The human cultural process might be nearing its end, strangled by those very wires supposed to bring us all together. Virtual ghosts rise in the nodes; routers are concerned with passing emissions that don't quite fit the definition of packet. Sometimes the wires themselves end up coated with ectoplasm, remnants of beings not-quite-us traversing the skein. I'd say pull out, but the increasingly fine mesh or raster ensures that pullout's impossible; even our local outer space isn't immune from ranked orders skittering back and forth, taking ghostly emanations with them. Oddly- shaped noctiluminescent clouds fill the sky; lavender-orange lightnings dance with the usual strokes. The stars are certain to keep their counts with everyone watching with wide-field telescopy. You have to be a sensi- tive to hear the murmurs in the air, subterranean sounds emitted by a very dangerous future far too close at hand. It's not only the viruses, the small bombs, the landmines, the worthless currency - it's not even the principles of the _thing_ which begins to darken ontology itself. It's what's always surrounded us, what's always been invisible - it's the plague of avatars, seminal disturbances - you can't quite figure them into the equations, can you. It's not what the hacker did; it's what the hacker didn't mean to do, and it's what the gun thought and the bomb pondered. And it's not the hacker, nor the man with the trigger; it's the vapors in the air, it's what the animals do, what the plants are thinking of doing. When we are loose, we are very very loose, and when we are bad, we are bad in deed. - from Julu, buried beneath the ground __________________________________________________________________________ Many Reports Multiculturalism's a lie; you can't reconstruct yesterday even in your own country. Giving you a spectrum of cultures and histories is just that - more theories, words, commodities, tourisms, "appreciations." I DON'T WANT TO BE APPRECIATED - I want to be seen as other, to be incomprehensible, just like you are to yourself, like you should be. All translation is a lie, mistranslation; the only thing we understand together is the movement of missiles from one country to another, either by land, or by air - armed - on fire - coming on fast. There's no escape; nobody wants to admit to radical incomprehension; more than ever, the world's supposed to be one big book, admittedly of many languages, but the smile of Manunkind behind them all. I, Daishin Nikuko, refuse to be part of all of this; I'll go down with the rest of you - my physiology's the same, but not much else. You won't even understand my final words, even if you could speak the language. There's no language big enough for any of us. I look at you and see: strangers. I look at myself and see: strangers. I'm the last honest person - and you won't understand that either - I'm the only one who knows that the world's expanding, not contracting - making way for the Big Deal that will kill us all. - Daishin Nikuko _________________________________________________________________________ Report from Appearance It's clear that universal psychosis is setting in, in both the metaphoric and literal senses; I can no longer perceive the difference between myself and my avatars, let loose on my unsuspecting miniature world. Do not, for an instant, doubt that this is yours as well; that we are all losing Soul and Substance day by day, hour by hour, second by second. Fantasms begin to rule everywhere, to speak where others have spoken before - to speak as if others had no voice, no memory, no history. They're differentiated from the rest of us by ectoplasmic secretions, by states of continual arousal, by shadows blurred by penumbras of indefinite extent. They are fed by acid rain, noise splattered across satellite dishes, stratospheric gouges permitting deadly rays to reach the surface of the planet. I am real and they are more real than I am. "I am" is a front for them. And they might ask me to say that if it were psychosis, I would not be allowed to speak, and if it were psychosis, there would not be these _true-scientific_ and _exacting-logical_ processes, observable by everyone: these atmospheric flows bringing contagion of cold money and soft flesh, suppurations and information wars, harsh words made from harsher constitutions. For acids shall not erase them, nor magnetic fields dissolve their innate beings, as we have known from certain experiment. We are spent-nuclear; "we are a poor troupe, hardly suitable for your entertainment, and we dance from, not to, our graves. La la la la la." Need I add that I'm forced to speak like this, because of our ingracious _medium?_ - Alan __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:44:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: New American Poetry reissue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe California will be putting it out this summer (June?). Small Press Traffic is planning a slew of events to commemorate the re-issue. Hugh Steinberg David Kellogg writes: >Is there a reissue of Donald Allen's _The New American Poetry_ planned? I >don't mean the revised version called _The Postmoderns_; I mean the original >1960 book? I thought I heard of such a thing (perhaps from California). >Can anybody give me information (release date etc.)? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:42:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: New American Poetry reissue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" California is definitely bringing this out, with the addition of a new essay by Don Allen. The date is still not fixed. 1998 is POSSIBLE; 1999 seems a shade more likely. Peter At 10:44 PM 10/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >I believe California will be putting it out this summer (June?). Small >Press Traffic is planning a slew of events to commemorate the re-issue. > >Hugh Steinberg > >David Kellogg writes: > >>Is there a reissue of Donald Allen's _The New American Poetry_ planned? I >>don't mean the revised version called _The Postmoderns_; I mean the original >>1960 book? I thought I heard of such a thing (perhaps from California). >>Can anybody give me information (release date etc.)? Thanks. > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 Voice : 604 255 8274 Fax: 255 8204 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:08:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: money for poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not to sound immodest, but being in the second year of a Stegner fellowship, I'd like to weigh in here. The chief benefits have been: 1. Enabling me to move to the Bay area. 2. Allowing me the time to volunteer with Small Press Traffic and do some decent work for them. 3. Allowing me the opportunity to live on a part time job in one of the more expensive parts of the country. 4. Access to a nice fat university library and plenty of time to read. 5. A foothold back into the academic world (especially being allowed to teach college classes and middle school students, especially being able to sit in on some pretty interesting classes and not have to pay for them). 6. Time to write. Time to write. Time to write. Considering I was working as an office temp and a proofreader for an accounting firm reading audit reports 40 hours a week prior to getting this fellowship, I'm more than grateful for all the opportunities it's given me. Granted, I was able to do most of those things I listed as benefits while I lived in Chicago and had a day job. But believe me, things are a lot easier with a fellowship than without one. There should be more of them. The reason people claw over grants and awards isn't because of a desire to accumulate money, they just want to accumulate time. Hugh Steinberg >> Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... >> but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" >> and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? >> just curious.......... > >Yes, winning $100 in a competition is not going to improve one's writing by >much, but getting a few grand for a grant, major award or fellowship could >let one devote a few months to writing, which should help a little bit. > >And some people try to make a living from writing: a friend of mine does >so, and even a few dollars here and there make valuable additions to the >scraps of royalties, grants and review fees that she gets. I don't think >we're talking about "accumulation of money" in this case. > >Even for poets with well-paying day jobs, a small award might help them >take their writing more seriously (as much due to the recognition as for >the dough), perhaps taking a month off to polish up a manuscript. > > Tom Beard. > > >> > I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any >> > particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion >& >> > angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I >mean, >> > I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & >improved >> > writing among poets who win anything. >> > >> > Anselm Berrigan >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:02:52 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: time bought borrowed or stolen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from suantrai@iol.ie ---------- > From: MAYHEW . But I woke up one day to discover that I had > become an academic instead* of a poet. So about 10 months ago, about the > same time I joined the list, I redefined myself as a poet. I will still > write literary criticism in my "field" (and not in a perfunctory way) but > I have reverted back to my original plan. In fact this was a new year's > resolution. I have still not "come out of the closet" about this to > everyone I know; perhaps that is for 1999. While I do not consider someone's being an academic to be in any sense a tragic loss of human potential, I found myself doing a spot of cheering and arm-waving on reading this. WELL DONE! And let the closet open as it lists, there's a balance between being upfront and inflicting snippets of biography on innocent bystanders. (Though this remark is I suppose a piece of stray autobio on my part. I kept zipped about writing poetry for years, then when my daughter went to school I realised that the very best publicity firms should be entirely staffed by five year olds.) PS your exercises are really smoking! Randolph Healy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:02:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Fwd: Re: html and poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Also, it occurs to me that maybe a useful project/service for the EPC >would be to draw up a set of guidelines/recommendations for this sort of >thing? Matt Yes, a great idea. If anyone is interested in working on such a set of guidelines for the EPC we would very much be interested in putting this sort of information up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Electronic Poetry Center http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:13:53 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: better than html & poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a real good deal perhaps someone here can use it. I know of one ISP that is offering free monthly internet access however they require a one time fee of their software($99) and a one time fee for set-up($20). After that it's 100% free unlimited access. They currently have 1,000 cities on-line with over 300 pop sites. Check to see if your city is listed on their web site http://www.freewwweb-access.com/freeweb.cgi?=1469-4. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:09:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: money for poets In-Reply-To: from "louis stroffolino" at Oct 5, 98 04:47:34 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jumping in ahead of Anselm b/c question is juicy: no, I don't see a connection. At least not one consistent enough to hang an argument on. I'll take one O'Hara lunch poem over fifty thousand poems produced at Yaddo (apologies to all list-members/yaddo-attenders). My own experience says that poems produced on the run, over a cup of coffee and a cheeseburger, or in the car during a conversation, or in the half-hour between classes, or on one's employer's computer when supposedly working on the Smuckers account, often come out better and more interesting than the one built on "emotion recollected in tranquility." Now, of course, you can be worked to death in detriment to your poetry, but that stereotypically European sense of "why doesn't the culture support its artists by giving them great amounts of "free" time to produce their great works - well, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to play out historically when I take account of the writers I really love - I think of Williams and his magic dashboard & prescription pads! Now that's writing! -m. According to louis stroffolino: > > Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... > but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" > and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? > just curious.......... > c > > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Poetry Project wrote: > > > I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any > > particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & > > angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, > > I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved > > writing among poets who win anything. > > > > Anselm Berrigan > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:41:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: money for poets In-Reply-To: <199810061209.IAA43506@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think of Williams and >his magic dashboard & prescription pads! Now that's writing! -m. Michael--Yeah, but didn't he hit a pole & break Flossie's neck? Great writing-at-the-wheel vs. great driving? drive, he sd, for christ's sake, look out where yr going best, Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 05:40:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: rimbaud & the hoho Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i thought it was a crack in time and Rimbaud was hollering his head off hello to let us know he's here right here listening in and allen's is hoho one of the poetries has his interest maybe his slaves hoho recite jennifer as he reclines on the sette with his monkey ho ho and his sifter repolishing his firearms hoho recocking his pistolettas behind his turqouise eyelids hoho and if you want to hear more from him hoho you're going to have to write poems hoho in which he'd even be caught dead hoho hollaring between the lines jest l'autre cocolat, ettonnez-moi! billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:37:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: help?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry about the personal note here. But I have a very good friend, young artist (20-something), grad of Cal. College of Arts & Crafts, female, in San Francisco who needs a new place to live. Anybody looking for roommates out there, or know of others looking for roommates? please backchannel only to me at chax@theriver.com and I'll forward information to my friend. thanks, charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:44:37 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: rimbaud & the hoho MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Billy Little wrote: > > i thought it was a crack in time > and Rimbaud was hollering his head off hello > to let us know he's here right here listening in > and allen's is hoho one of the poetries has his interest > maybe his slaves hoho recite jennifer as he reclines on the sette with his > monkey ho ho and his sifter repolishing his firearms hoho recocking his > pistolettas behind his turqouise eyelids hoho and if you want to hear more > from him hoho you're going to have to write poems hoho in which he'd even > be caught dead hoho hollaring between the lines jest l'autre cocolat, > ettonnez-moi! > > billy little > 4 song st. > nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > > Go ahead and say something true > before the big turd eats You > You can say any last thing in Your poem. > > -Alice Notley Who[]e, Who[]e. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:54:18 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You gotta laugh to keep from cryin'. Die laughin'.---Carlo Mark DuCharme wrote: > > Carlo, > > Sorry I didn't get the joke the first time, but you must admit you're > pretty deadpan. This one's even better-- & I appreciate the political > ire. > > Take care, > > Mark DuCharme > > >It was a joke, man. I thought Joe was right on, but needs to cut down > on > >his caveats. > > > >But let's play. Poetry has greater "stature" now that it has been > >removed from the streets and resides in the academy which of course is > >more respectable. This new respectability, largely a product of the > >emphasis placed on civic values and the importance of one's own > feelings > >characteristic of the Neo-Georgian School, has encouraged people from > >all walks of life to "make their little poems" as Rod Jellema is fond > of > >putting it. Ted Turner and Michael Milke(m) write poetry, as does > >Secretary of Defense Cohen, Jeanne Kirkpatrick and Caspar Weinberger. > >Former CIA Director William Colby published a collection of short > lyrics > >entitled Swimming Lessons published by Reader's Digest. The late, great > >king of military psy-ops, Edward Landsdale is said to have attempted an > >epic poem in the style of Vergil embracing the entire history of > >Southeast Asia. > > > >When I purchased part of Paul Linebarger's library, the author of > >Psychological Warfare and one of iits major practitioners, I found > >"little poems" dealing with the quaint domestic conundrums of life > among > >Washington's social set like whether he should sit Sukarno's widow next > >to Richard Helms at a dinner party. These little literary bon mots, as > >Michael Dirda of the Washington Post would undoubtedly describe them, > >were wedged in the pages of books on techniques for psychological > >torture, a technique in and of itself that would have intrigued Hannah > >Arendt. > > > >Whittaker Chambers was a poet as was Harry Truman's handler, Jimmy > >Byrnes. A document recently released as FOIA #10345, reveals that 38% > of > >the veterans of the Phoenix Program published books of poetry (albeit > >mostly with obscure vanity presses) within 10 years of termination of > >service so convincing a technique among the criminally sanctioned has > >been the Confessional School, the precursor of the New-Georgians. > Norman > >Schwarzkopf writes love sonnets and villanelles, a fact that would have > >really upset his daddy, a former bagman for the DIA. > > > >There are whole schools of poetry that I'm certain you know nothing > >about. There is the Los Alamos School, the Richard Dailey Memorial > >Democratic Machine School, the Pinkerton School, the Madison Avenue > >School, the Hollywood School, the Manifest Destiny School, the Veterans > >of Foreign Wars School (a big school; very sentimental), the School of > >the Americas, the Chicago School, the Navy Seals school; I could go on > >and on, ad nauseam. But they all have one thing in common; they write > >like Gerald Stern. Now that's serious influence. That's "STATURE". > > > >So how can you question poetry's current "stature". Bill Cohen can > adopt > >the liberal, do gooder ethos in a poem he's writing from his vacation > >home on Monday and fly in on Tuesday just in time to have his handlers > >tell him how to handle a lethal airstrike or police action. Poetry has > >such incredible "stature" now because it's so flexible. You can say > >nothing and insist you're doing it in the name of left-wing radicalism, > >even Marxism. You can establish a white middle class, college educated > >income between $27,500 and $78,000 per annum, > >I'm-so-full-that-I'm-empty-I-have-to-tell-the-world-about-it profile > for > >poetry then uncritically apply it as a universal standard like "free > >market democracies", "technological revolutions", "20% return on your > >investments" and other such fictions. Christ, that fucker Robert Hass > >did that very thing in his little, kitty litterature box in the Book > >World of today's sad and sorry Washington Post The brutal, colonial > >history of the Philippines was reduced to that Neo-Georgian sentimental > >drivel and then praised and supported with whitey's prizes, fellowships > >and grants; the same blood money that some of my friends here on the > >list lust after. Read that poor pathetic excuse for a prize-winning > poem > >and you just smell the stench of oppression. "Returning a Borrowed > >Language" or whatever the anthology is called, my ass. Can't wash all > >those murders off with that Neo-Georgian technique. Doesn't wash of. > >Can't even burn it off. > > > >So Mark. That is what I mean by "stature". The power to be part of > >murderous institutions and at the same time claim to be confronting > >them. When I defended some elements of the social science community > >Soakl, Gross & Levitt on this list, all I got was ignorant rancor which > >amounted to a blind defense of those same institutions. In that case as > >it turned out, the stink went right back to Richard Mellon Scaife and > >other defenders of the money. > > > >I'm reminded of the words of another poet here in Washington. The > lapsed > >Jesuit, misogynist, T.V. pundit John McLaughlin. Big Loud John once > >said, "Whores? Whores!? We're all whores! But I'm the whore with the > >T.V. show!!" See, all we lack is the fucking ratings. > > > >Thanks, for the setup Mark. I got a migraine and can't read anyway. > >As for Amato. I mentioned his name to The Family. I think he knows what > >I mean. The Jimmy Hoffa School. > >Mark DuCharme wrote: > >> > >> C. Parcelli wrote: > >> > >> >I resent Mr. Amato's harsh and impolitic remarks. How could poetry > have > >> >achieved its current stature within the culture at large without > >> >compromise? > >> > >> While I appreciate the need to compromise for the sake of realism or > >> politesse, I'm just wondering what kind of "current stature" you > think > >> poetry has achieved. Hmm, maybe we ought to try _less_ compromise; > from > >> the point of view of visibility or popularity (which, I'll be the > first > >> to acknowledge, are not the only or necessarily even the most valid > >> yardsticks), poetry doesn't seem to have much stature within the > culture > >> AT LARGE at all. > >> > >> & Personally, I didn't feel Joe was being so harsh & impolitic... but > >> then again, I can sympathize with his point of view, however much it > is > >> true in the end that capitulations have to be made... > >> > >> --Mark DuCharme > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: money time equation (p=m/t ^2)? money vs. time... o.k., i'll bite. i've thought about it aLOT. some of thoughts: 1) there seem to be an awful lot of writers who write something extraordinary while working as busboy in hotel, dr., indian chief, etc. they get gobs of glam and recog. and... nothing else. ever. or, worse... 2) geschmutz. dreckda. ptheewww! or not even, just mediocre, dull, navel mesmerized wordlumps. was it the money? the recognition? the sudden rapt world attention (think of those pale, thin, knobby child-stars who freeze when they get in the Big Shoe...) -- a case of stage fright? 3) but there are people, nice people, with ordinary, struggling lives we all relate to (can i pay rent this month? oh dear god, please let it not be the transmission, please let it not be the transmission...) who write book, it sells, they get globs of money, and they... KEEP ON WRITING. as well, or better. sue miller springs to mind, quite probably because she is our local wunderkinder. she bought, i've heard, a house with the windfall from "the good mother" and after years of nomadic bostonian rentpoor existence, who can blame her? who among us does not envy? 4) there have been a few times in my life when i've had sudden globs of time on my hands. was i more productive? i have to say, no. turn it around: when was i MOST productive? when i was getting poleaxed with something i wanted to write, when i was on a writing streak which, we all know, has something to do with moon in jupiter or pluto in mars or five countries beginning with "A" all putting a highway in the NW part of capital city in same week, or... who knows. 5) would money/prizes/recognition have changed, helped, etc. say, DURING a writing streak? don't know. 6) would money etc. help now? SURE! i have DEBTS i would have much peace of mind if i could pay. i would like a house. i would like to, finally, travel. would it help my WRITING? don't know. it would give me more subject matter. fewer excuses not to write. 7) side effect of contest/prize/etc not mentioned yet is the automatic accept thing. you send your work in over the transom as howard unknown, and you stand good chance of shitpiling. you send your work in as howard i-won-X-famous-prize, they'll take, maybe without really reading, just because, well, howard i.w.x.f.p MUST be good, after all, he won that prize... wouldn't i like to have more authority, more publishability? SURE! would it help? well, i'd get more work out, but would i be disciplined enough not to take advantage of it, send out bad work without waiting to know if it really is good and then it gets published and then, months, years later, i cringe and regret? don't know. but bottom line is: 8) we write to get read. . whatever advances that, maybe it is a good thing taken as a whole. but do we have to get read while we are alive? what if we write like blazes, sans glam, and then get read like anything when we are dead?... 9) look, i don't know. don't think anyone knows. but i can look at what we HAVE, and i do think rigged contests are dishonest and dishonorable. one can, ultimately, protest the dishnonest and dishonorable only by not agreeing to be part of them. but laura (who says we ought to KNOW about contests), how do we KNOW if they are dishonest? it isn't always as blazingly apparent as, say, the National Library of Poe-(sucker born every minute)-EH- try (try try again). ok, my too-long fifty cents... e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: The 4th decade of experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 31. Write a poem without irony. 32. These experiments involve (a) constraints, (b) bringing poetry into the world--breaking down barriers, (c) de-familiarization, or (d) obsessiveness or mania. Formulate an excercise that does something else. 33. Treat a pre-existing poem in "free verse" as though it were a fixed form. Reproduce the pattern of syllables and accents in your own poem. 34. Watch the sky for a predetermined period each day, keeping a journal of your observations. 35. Translate a poet's work into the foreign language that you know best; write poems directly in this language. 36. Write a hundred poems and rank them in approximate order of excellence. Whenever you write a new poem allow it to "challenge" the existing poems for a place on the list. Do this until all original 100 have been replaced. Start over again, this time choosing an altenate "standard" of value or rejecting value judgments altogether. 37. Write a poem of any length. Then replace every line with a variant that is functionally equivalent (in any way you decide). Keep going until you have at least 10 complete sets of variants. You will have either 1 perfect poem (the best variants for each line), 10 poems, or "100 billion poems" a la Queneau (all possible permutations: 10 to the nth power where _n_ is the number of lines in your original poem.) 38. Compose the worst possible poem you can; read it at all poetry readings you give until someone points out to you how dreadful it is. 39. Write bitter invective (but as side-splittingly funny as possible!) against any target of your own choosing. 40. Start writing political poetry of the most explicit sort possible, but make it as "well-written" as possible--whatever this means for you in this context. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:09:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: The 4th decade of experiments In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:06:16 -0500 from 44. Forget about experiment & try writing authentic poetry without gimmicks and pseudo-sophistication that might actually mean something to yourself & others. Toughest experiment of all. The greater portion of the rhyming tribe (Give ear, my friend, for thou hast been a scribe) Are led astray by some peculiar lure. I labor to be brief - become obscure; One falls by following elegance too fast; Another soars, inflated with bombast; Too low a third crawls on, afraid to fly, He spins his subject to satiety; Absurdly varying, he at last engraves Fish in the woods, and boars beneath the waves! (Byron) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:14:26 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Judging Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was holding back from this discussion but I too have recieved grants in the past and I have always gotten them as special favors to me in other words as straight economic and political quid pro quos. The best deal was the one I struck with Exxon right after the Valdez spill. They had just initiated their POETS, VOX POPULI campaign and you can bet your sweet ass I wanted a taste of that $440,000,000.00 pot. I had provided some forged end user certificates to a group of mercenaries in Angola to purchase weapons for Savimbi, so the boys at Exxon, who were trying to shove out Gulf, Chevron and Royal Dutch Shell in the region, owed me one. But to get my grant money, I had to fuck the entire board of directors and their chauffeurs. Actually, this wasn't so bad because those suits are really in touch with their bodies. Anyway, that's my confession. I hope you won't think any less of me.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:14:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Tatrunis reading Poet Paula Tatarunis reads Tues, 13 October, 7 PM Newton Free Library 330 Homer St, Newton Center, MA Paula Tatarunis, among greater honors, has been published often in Nedge. Sample (not from Nedge) of her work: EROS OF PECS Not sapiens but peccadillus, he has an appetite for peccary, hard-boiled eggs, pecans, and 38's. He's a peculiar kisser. Ask his dates. He specializes in peccata mundi. Peculation his m. operandi. He packs, he pecks; picks pockets; puckers. Crimes. And even pilfers from the pyx, sometimes. - Paula Tatarunis - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:00:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new cologne?). I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see if anybody else has any...) --trace-- P.S. alright, here's mine: Lotus (after Zukofsky) genuine dire snow unfold when mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren soap trunk cotton asthma tear ink wrought life thistle lair asking-always daemon-lent home ever been ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:09:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" charles bernstein's 5 yr old son felix specialized in limericks last year. charles read some of them at a conference. they were cool. At 9:00 AM 10/6/98, tracy s. ruggles wrote: >Hi all, > >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new >cologne?). > >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see >if anybody else has any...) > >--trace-- > > >P.S. alright, here's mine: > >Lotus (after Zukofsky) > > genuine dire snow unfold when > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren > soap trunk cotton asthma tear > ink wrought life thistle lair > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:51:43 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: money for poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > stereotypically European sense of "why doesn't the culture support its > > artists by giving them great amounts of "free" time to produce their > great > works - well, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to play out > historically > when I take account of the writers I really love - I think of Williams > and > his magic dashboard & prescription pads! Now that's writing! -m. Might explain why you only have one favorite poet, too. Have you been experimenting with this historical model lately? Practicing a little obstetrics on the fly while delivering poems? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:49:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: money for poets Comments: To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com In-Reply-To: <361A4A9E.43A8CDEA@nycap.rr.com> from "Edward Fristrom" at Oct 6, 98 12:51:43 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, you missed my mentioning of O'Hara: I have been having lunch on the fly! and my wife has been practicing obstetrics on the fly. Is that close enough? And need I go through the many working folks on this list whose poems I love, poems, indeed, written on the fly? -m. According to Edward Fristrom: > > > stereotypically European sense of "why doesn't the culture support its > > > > artists by giving them great amounts of "free" time to produce their > > great > > works - well, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to play out > > historically > > when I take account of the writers I really love - I think of Williams > > and > > his magic dashboard & prescription pads! Now that's writing! -m. > > Might explain why you only have one favorite poet, too. Have you been > experimenting with this historical model lately? Practicing a little > obstetrics on the fly while delivering poems? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: judging time bought borrowed or stolen In-Reply-To: <361952F8.AC88CAE8@naropa.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII @). Just want to thank everyone on the list who did cite, frontchannel and backchannel, particular instances in which a judge chose either a student or a friend. #). I think it's important to understand not only why this occurs and what its implications are, but _how often_ it happens. $). I don't think it's particularly helpful to _criticize_ the phenomenon -- but that could just be me. On the other hand, knowing _about_ it (rather than simply _of_ it) and chatting openly about it might, somehow, help the situation. Thanks again, be well. -- Gabriel Gudding ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:13:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: poets & money Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tried writing on the fly but the little bugger kept wriggling away from me -- then tried writing on the money itself, thus getting far greater criculation than by the book -- new, enlarged Andrew Jackson affords an improved surface for short forms -- the letters between Williams and Marcia Nardi provide a good couterpoint to this theme -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:14:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: money for poets In-Reply-To: <199810061209.IAA43506@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Depends, obviously, on the poet and the poem. Retirement gave us a different Williams, the one who wrote Desert Music and Journey to Love. My own experience, since I was able to chuck the 9 to 5, is that my work changed--perhaps not for the better (that's not my call), but different in interesting ways--although I was always pretty adept at writing on the run and still do, mostly. In a perfect world every poet would be able to have the environment that best nurtures his poetry of the moment. It won't happen, but it's nice that some can manage to get grants or colony fellowships when they need them. At 08:09 AM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jumping in ahead of Anselm b/c question is juicy: no, I don't see a >connection. At least not one consistent enough to hang an argument on. >I'll take one O'Hara lunch poem over fifty thousand poems produced at >Yaddo (apologies to all list-members/yaddo-attenders). My own experience >says that poems produced on the run, over a cup of coffee and a >cheeseburger, or in the car during a conversation, or in the half-hour >between classes, or on one's employer's computer when supposedly working >on the Smuckers account, often come out better and more interesting than >the one built on "emotion recollected in tranquility." Now, of course, >you can be worked to death in detriment to your poetry, but that >stereotypically European sense of "why doesn't the culture support its >artists by giving them great amounts of "free" time to produce their great >works - well, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to play out historically >when I take account of the writers I really love - I think of Williams and >his magic dashboard & prescription pads! Now that's writing! -m. > >According to louis stroffolino: >> >> Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... >> but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" >> and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? >> just curious.......... >> c >> >> On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Poetry Project wrote: >> >> > I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any >> > particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & >> > angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, >> > I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved >> > writing among poets who win anything. >> > >> > Anselm Berrigan >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:34:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been to both Limerick and Cologne. I know Cologne, and I can tell you that Limerick is no Cologne. You might want to check out Gershon Legman, _The Limerick_. 5000 (yup, all them zeros) examples. He contends, by the way, that to do it right it's gotta be salacious. At 09:00 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new >cologne?). > >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see >if anybody else has any...) > >--trace-- > > >P.S. alright, here's mine: > >Lotus (after Zukofsky) > > genuine dire snow unfold when > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren > soap trunk cotton asthma tear > ink wrought life thistle lair > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: poets & money hmmmm, when i tried writing on the fly, i got offered SUBSTANTIALLY larger amounts of money. on the other hand, when bowering tried it, he got arrested... e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: money for poets In-Reply-To: <199810061649.MAA80708@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>>Ah, you missed my mentioning of O'Hara: I have been having lunch on the fly! and my wife has been practicing obstetrics on the fly. I thought flies laid eggs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:51:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: money for poets Comments: To: junction@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit junction@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >Depends, obviously, on the poet and the poem. Now take a guy like me. I always write better when money worries are few, as they are definitely not right now, and if they are not then I always write better when I'm in the country, as I have been for the past few weeks (did you miss me?) where there are fewer money worries even if you don't have any money because it's much less expensive to live out in the country. Also, who can worry about money when there's a sky full of galaxies and the Milky Way to gape at most nights, and a horizon in all directions to gaze at, and cows to admire for their serene devotion to duty. Actually I work much better in the country. There are fewer distractions, even those nervous ones of a self-induced nature. It's astonishing, after being city-bound for so long, to find myself working on a poem for an unimaginable number of hours, and pleased as all get out to be doing so. To get that effect in the city one has to have on hand a ready supply of certain prescription drugs, Dexedrine for instance, which itself is a drain on cash supplies. One night I was watching the sky and a cloud swam away to reveal Sirius shining splendidly, and just then a dog started barking ten miles away. Honest! So, my conclusion: the city is fine for dashing off a line here and there, whilst nervously pacing in your little cage and worrying about the rent, or rushing off to deliver another baby, but the country is the place to be when it's time to put those lines together into something destined for immortality. But that's just me. No wish to cause a mass exodus from our wonderful urban centres. Then again, the city is just the same as the country except for a greater number of buildings, and more streets, and more cars, and more people, and fewer cows and fewer trout streams. As former poet and natural historian Christopher Dewdney once said, the country is just the city with a larger grid. dwm "Up to now, the net result of all this for Claudine has been an unexpected passion for Francis Jammes because that odd poet understands the country and animals and old-fashioned gardens and the importance of the stupid little things in life." - Colette, Claudine in Paris. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:54:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: yaddo yaddo yaddo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" when will writers' colonies achieve independence? does Breadloaf offer postcolonial studies? yours from the semi-autonomous republic of my soul, aldon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:56:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: poets & money Comments: To: elliza@AI.MIT.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit elliza@AI.MIT.EDU writes: >on the other hand, when bowering tried it, >he got arrested... when you go to see bowering it's best to take a flyswatter. dwm "There is more drama here, no doubt, than in all the pages that are to come." - Sara Jeannette Duncan, The Imperialist. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:39:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: money time equation (p=m/t ^2)? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eliza McGrand wrote: > 9) look, i don't know. don't think anyone knows. but i can look at what > we HAVE, and i do think rigged contests are dishonest and dishonorable. one > can, ultimately, protest the dishnonest and dishonorable only by not agreeing > to be part of them. but laura (who says we ought to KNOW about contests), > how do we KNOW if they are dishonest? it isn't always as blazingly > apparent as, say, the National Library of Poe-(sucker born every minute)-EH- > try (try try again). > How about looking at the books that have won in the past? Getting info from each other on lists like this? Passing on info to friends if you find a good one (or one to avoid)? Not entering if you can't afford to lose? And never expecting to win anything. Contests are gambling, with pretty bad odds. I still think we need wealthy benefactors or at least affordable housing, not contests, to solve financial woes. Here's to time stolen from work, Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:38:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Re: money for poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I see the connection Chris, & I think it's valid tho' still dependent on who the person is & how they work, etc. & I think grants are nice if you can get them but I also think it's a waste of energy to give it much thought. I guess, actually, the real problem I see is a community(ies) of writers giving off the impression that some degree of outside funding is essential to getting their work done. The actual writing. Of course, a poet who, say, owns a car could actually sell the car instead of applying for a grant & thereby stop spitting exhaust into the air while having time to write, reflect, edit, etc...... Anselm > Hey, Anselm, I may agree with you.... > but do you not see a connection between "improved writing" > and having MORE TIME to write, and look back over one's writing, etc.? > just curious.......... > c > >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Poetry Project wrote: > >> I realize I'm coming to this late, & this isn't really geared to any >> particular message, but I find it hard to believe that so much passion & >> angst can be raised about grants, awards, contests, judges, etc. I mean, >> I don't exactly see a connection between accumulation of money & improved >> writing among poets who win anything. >> >> Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: A petition to censure and move on Now that the Starr report is out, and the worst is known, I've been hoping that congress would take swift action and then move on with the business of the country. But it seems our representatives are settling down for a long process, and I'm not sure I can stand it. Worse, I'm not sure the country can stand it. I'm helping launch an Internet campaign to tell our representatives that we've had enough. The President should receive censure from the Congress and we should all move on. And the independent counsel investigation should end. It's time for the public interest to come first, and for our representatives to show real leadership. Will you help? Just go to http://www.moveon.org to sign the petition. It only takes a minute. And then if you send a message on to your friends and colleagues, the ball will really get rolling. It's up to us. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone you think would be interested. Don't send this message indiscriminately. Spam hurts the campaign. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:57:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981006103412.009f17e0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mark -- This is the Legman who specializes in dirty jokes? He gets around. Once there was a scholar named Legman . . You go next. Hilton Obenzinger On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > I've been to both Limerick and Cologne. I know Cologne, and I can tell you > that Limerick is no Cologne. > > You might want to check out Gershon Legman, _The Limerick_. 5000 (yup, all > them zeros) examples. He contends, by the way, that to do it right it's > gotta be salacious. > > At 09:00 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John > >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but > >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered > >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even > >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new > >cologne?). > > > >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see > >if anybody else has any...) > > > >--trace-- > > > > > >P.S. alright, here's mine: > > > >Lotus (after Zukofsky) > > > > genuine dire snow unfold when > > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren > > soap trunk cotton asthma tear > > ink wrought life thistle lair > > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on Comments: To: bouchard@MIT.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit bouchard@MIT.EDU writes: >Will you help? Someone yesterday forwarded an email list insinuating Clinton has had a hand in about 87 murders of various colleagues and associates. Sounded like something Goebbels and Goering might have compiled. It's pretty frightening from this vantage point. dwm "I got as far as Buffalo, halfway across the Peace Bridge, then lost my heart and turned back. Something in Canada had taken the breath of spirit out of me, and I promised never to go back...." - Richard Ford, The Sportswriter. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:11:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The very same. He's the great folklorist of smut. A lot of the limericks were collected from bathroom walls. The only rhyme I could come up with is "smegman." Whose vocation, he'd claim, was "a smegman." At 11:57 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Mark -- > >This is the Legman who specializes in dirty jokes? He gets around. > >Once there was a scholar named Legman . . > >You go next. > >Hilton Obenzinger > > >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I've been to both Limerick and Cologne. I know Cologne, and I can tell you >> that Limerick is no Cologne. >> >> You might want to check out Gershon Legman, _The Limerick_. 5000 (yup, all >> them zeros) examples. He contends, by the way, that to do it right it's >> gotta be salacious. >> >> At 09:00 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >Hi all, >> > >> >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John >> >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but >> >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered >> >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even >> >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new >> >cologne?). >> > >> >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see >> >if anybody else has any...) >> > >> >--trace-- >> > >> > >> >P.S. alright, here's mine: >> > >> >Lotus (after Zukofsky) >> > >> > genuine dire snow unfold when >> > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren >> > soap trunk cotton asthma tear >> > ink wrought life thistle lair >> > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been >> > >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And he slept with all of them. At 03:04 PM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >bouchard@MIT.EDU writes: >>Will you help? >Someone yesterday forwarded an email list insinuating Clinton has had a >hand in about 87 murders of various colleagues and associates. Sounded >like something Goebbels and Goering might have compiled. It's pretty >frightening from this vantage point. >dwm >"I got as far as Buffalo, halfway across the Peace Bridge, then lost my >heart and turned back. Something in Canada had taken the breath of spirit >out of me, and I promised never to go back...." >- Richard Ford, The Sportswriter. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981006121246.009f43a0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey listees, I'm back from the land of nomail, and was curious about what seems to me to be a gratuitous instance of Canada bashing (i.e. the Richard Ford quote). that said, when I see Richard Ford, I reach for my revolver (in his textual, not corporal, guise), so perhaps I have jumped to conclusions (off the Peace Bridge). surely, O Canada can rightfully look down on the governing antics of these United States of Amerrorica. Robert On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > >"I got as far as Buffalo, halfway across the Peace Bridge, then lost my > >heart and turned back. Something in Canada had taken the breath of spirit > >out of me, and I promised never to go back...." > >- Richard Ford, The Sportswriter. > > > > > Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:18:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anastasios Kozaitis Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981006121158.009f2bd0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello folks, I'm new to the list as of today. But, I had to get in on the limerick.... Once there was a scholar named Legman Whose vocation, he'd claim, was a "smegman" His cheese he'd collect bathroom wall's, he'd dissect... Stash ===== At 12:11 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >The very same. He's the great folklorist of smut. A lot of the limericks >were collected from bathroom walls. >The only rhyme I could come up with is "smegman." > >Whose vocation, he'd claim, was "a smegman." > >At 11:57 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Mark -- >> >>This is the Legman who specializes in dirty jokes? He gets around. >> >>Once there was a scholar named Legman . . >> >>You go next. >> >>Hilton Obenzinger >> >> >>On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>> I've been to both Limerick and Cologne. I know Cologne, and I can tell you >>> that Limerick is no Cologne. >>> >>> You might want to check out Gershon Legman, _The Limerick_. 5000 (yup, all >>> them zeros) examples. He contends, by the way, that to do it right it's >>> gotta be salacious. >>> >>> At 09:00 AM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >>> >Hi all, >>> > >>> >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John >>> >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but >>> >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered >>> >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even >>> >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new >>> >cologne?). >>> > >>> >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see >>> >if anybody else has any...) >>> > >>> >--trace-- >>> > >>> > >>> >P.S. alright, here's mine: >>> > >>> >Lotus (after Zukofsky) >>> > >>> > genuine dire snow unfold when >>> > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren >>> > soap trunk cotton asthma tear >>> > ink wrought life thistle lair >>> > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on Comments: To: junction@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit junction@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >And he slept with all of them. But there's the occasional voice of sanity, like E.L.Doctorow no less in this week's New Yorker (qv), pointing out that perjury, when being grilled about something that is not a crime, is not a crime. In fact the NYer has been good throughout, though I don't see it everyw eek. dwm "The suit was made of one of the newer bioplastic materials, and its living tissues were still growing, softly adapting themselves to the contours of her body." - J. G. Ballard, The Venus Hunters. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:09:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on Comments: To: rcor@U.WASHINGTON.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit rcor@U.WASHINGTON.EDU writes: >Hey listees, I'm back from the land of nomail, and was curious about what >seems to me to be a gratuitous instance of Canada bashing (i.e. the >Richard Ford quote). that said, when I see Richard Ford, I reach for my >revolver (in his textual, not corporal, guise), so perhaps I have jumped >to conclusions (off the Peace Bridge). surely, O Canada can rightfully >look down on the governing antics of these United States of Amerrorica. Right on, but it doesn't make it any less frightening for us. Maybe more so in fact. By the way, there is a lot of Canada-bashing in that particular book. A journalist friend who interviewed him when he was up here asked him about it, at my request, and according to her he didn't have much of an answer, in fact seemed a bit uncomfortable about it. He even has nasty things to say about hockey!!! dwm "A peaceful Sunday ... every day new guns and new tanks came out of the German factories." - Simone de Beauvoir, The Blood of Others (1945). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:18:58 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Content-Type: text/plain Limerick is also the name of the nuclear power plant about 15 miles north of here -- right where Jena "Glows in the Dark" Osman lives. Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" our "Legman" limerick is, if you'll forgive me, starting off on the wrong foot -- unless you're actually going to pronounce "there" with an unusally pronounced emphasis -- need to switch to "There once . . ." though, as always, regional variations in emphasis may have their way with meter -- The one point of agreement between John Hollander and me, to quote Hollander: But the best of a _limerick_-- Though in Dutch or in Cymric-- Are the little short lines in the middle. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:52:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: petition to etc : Hnery Hyde Rider Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Agreed, but I would like to attach a Rider requiring Henry Hyde to elaborate on his notion that there is a statute of limitations governing what he thinks is moral conduct. I mean, doesn't God keep track of all one's sins in a big book? And isn't Henry Hyde currently playing God? Does God's ink fade with mere time? These and other questions I should like to hear H Hyde debate. Perhaps with Pat Buchanan. + + + + + The tag disparaging of Canada was posted not by Mark Weiss, but by Canada's own David W. McFadden. To understand this, would be to understand the Canadian temperament. We suggest the would-be novitiate begin with Leacock, Stephen, _Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town_ . Dave. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the hook is in. hello i'm also new to the list. though a. nielson's point is respected re faulty stress, i cannot resist the continuation of the clunky... There once was a scholar named Legman Whose vocation, he'd claim, was a "smegman" His cheese he'd collect Bathroom walls, he'd dissect He traded his books for a bedpan. forgive me. hassen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:14:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: petition to etc : Hnery Hyde Rider In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I also want the details about what his paramour and Hyde, that sly dog, did together. No telling what of use one could learn. Actually, I rather like Canada, especially the weather, despite an early unfortunate marriage to a Torontonian, which I don't always blame on the country at large. I do think that that marriage gives me the same disparagement rights as a native, however. I will say just one word, the import of which anyone familiar with echt Quebecois culture will recognize immediately: "poutine." At 03:52 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Agreed, but I would like to attach a Rider requiring Henry Hyde to >elaborate on his notion that there is a statute of limitations governing >what he thinks is moral conduct. > >I mean, doesn't God keep track of all one's sins in a big book? And isn't >Henry Hyde currently playing God? Does God's ink fade with mere time? These >and other questions I should like to hear H Hyde debate. Perhaps with Pat >Buchanan. > > + + + + + > >The tag disparaging of Canada was posted not by Mark Weiss, but by Canada's >own David W. McFadden. To understand this, would be to understand the >Canadian temperament. We suggest the would-be novitiate begin with Leacock, >Stephen, _Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town_ . > >Dave. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: money for poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Magee wrote: > Ah, you missed my mentioning of O'Hara: I have been having lunch on > the > fly! and my wife has been practicing obstetrics on the fly. Is that > close > enough? And need I go through the many working folks on this list > whose > poems I love, poems, indeed, written on the fly? -m. Well. . .no. . . I think marrying into a profession is a fine thing for a writer. . .quite another thing from having a profession. If you aren't working after all. . .you can still write poems "on the fly" if you want. I don't have anything particularly against spontaneous poems. (I have however been writing more prose lately, so I am biased. It's hard to write a short story on the dashboard). And I think there's probably a lot of professions involving flies that are a great source of inspiration. My parents are drosophila geneticists, so I grew up around fly-obstetrics, though usually the odd jobs relegated to me had more to do with fly-autoclaving. Believe me, plenty of grim, yeasty, teenagerish sorts of poems that year. Poems with legs. And antennae. But I wouldn't say that Williams or O'Hara could be called a historical model. I also don't think it's "work-time" itself that's an issue so much as the type of work you can acquire. . . Delivering children (or a plague of insects) has a certain dramatic appeal, but its hard to get jobs in separate competitive fields (writing, medicine, etc.) In the mean time, a lot of us take up work in "something related to writing," and this is what interests me: these jobs suck the life out of you. Academia is good if you can get it, but it isn't good if you get four classes in freshman composition for 22,000$ a year. Last summer, I tried out tech writing which pays better, but at the end of the a day writing instruction manuals for vaporware, you don't come home and want to write. You don't want to read. You don't want text anywhere near you. You don't even want to watch TV because it has credits and those little logos in the bottom corner. You want to take up something like cooking. Maybe Indian cooking. Something you can eat. Something that reminds you that your brain is connected to your stomach. So what do people think are "good jobs for writing?" As opposed to the "good jobs for writers"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:33:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: L.A. Books Reading this Sunday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII L.A. Books at Cafe Balcony OCTOBER 11, 1998 Will Alexander Christopher Reiner Cafe Balcony 12431 Rochester Avenue (corner Santa Monica & Centenela) Los Angeles, California Readings begin at 4 p.m. Admission $5. All proceeds to go readers. Check out some photographs from the first series (recommended for fast modem connections only--it's a big file) at http://www.litpress.com/balcony.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poets & money In-Reply-To: <199810061741.NAA25542@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >hmmmm, when i tried writing on the fly, i got offered SUBSTANTIALLY >larger amounts of money. on the other hand, when bowering tried it, >he got arrested... > >e That was only because they never told me you were supposed to do the writing on your OWN fly! How was I to know? Bromige never told me. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Once there was a scholar named Legman . . > >You go next. [Can't. That line doesnt have the right metre for a limerick.] George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:07:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: jobs for poets In-Reply-To: <361AA7DE.B0045DDC@nycap.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Edward Fristrom wrote: > In the > mean time, a lot of us take up work in "something related to writing," > and this is what interests me: these jobs suck the life out of you. Up until last September when I was made redundant, I was a ghostwriter of books for a publishing company spun off of a consulting company. I hated it, but the pay was good and the hours ridiculously easy. And no, I did not write more, but no less either. Now, I work half-time for an arts agency as a grantswriter. It's finally work that I can mostly believe in. The agency is actually a theater troupe consisting primarily of people with mental illness (schizophrenica, depression, manic depression, DID, etc.) who put on short sketches about the experience of having a mental illness. Much of the work is quite satirical, attacking hospitals and the psychiatric profession, drugs and their side effects, etc. The job does not pay real well. My other half-time job is at a boating magazine. I compile an events calendar, the Local Notices to Mariners from the Coast Guard and a monthly collection of reports of drug arrests, BWIs (boating while intoxicated) and search and rescues (some pretty dramatic) which I also get from the Coast Guard. It's not the type of work that I can believe in or not, but I do like the people I work with. It don't pay so great either. And so, I have the experience of some here -- job satisfaction or relative satisfaction but no time for much else than worring about money. Steven ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:14:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981006151854.0093c100@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Once there was a scholar named Legman >Whose vocation, he'd claim, was a "smegman" >His cheese he'd collect >bathroom wall's, he'd dissect... [Now this I dont understand. Bathroom wall's what?] George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981006135413.0069dad8@popmail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Aldon -- You are absolutely correct -- I apologize -- I'm not from Limmerick, just Brooklyn via Lublin. There once was a foot that fell flat. . . Hilton On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Aldon Nielsen wrote: > our "Legman" limerick is, if you'll forgive me, starting off on the wrong > foot -- unless you're actually going to pronounce "there" with an unusally > pronounced emphasis -- need to switch to "There once . . ." though, as > always, regional variations in emphasis may have their way with meter -- > > > The one point of agreement between John Hollander and me, to quote Hollander: > > But the best of a _limerick_-- > Though in Dutch or in Cymric-- > Are the little short lines in the middle. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:57:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: money for poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ee-yew...fly-*autoclaving*... Well, to prove the everyone-has-different-tastes theory: I am now (for the past 3 years) happily ensconced in a tech-writing/desktop-publishing job at a computer software company & adore it. I always found teaching utterly exhausting; I would be a pile of nerves while preparing lectures, then have this exuberant post-class adrenaline rush with eventual dramatic crash. It was *way* too emotional for me. Meanwhile, the world of high tech publishing lets me play with words and images all day, many of which I am curious about but not overly-attached to--and at the end of the day I am thrilled to see poetry & fiction. Provided nothing's misspelled: the proofreader habit doesn't quit after an 8 hour day. And as an aside on the beg-borrow-or-steal time issue: no matter how much or how little one has, if there are kids in your life, you are continually "on the fly." Edward Fristrom wrote: > Last summer, I > tried out tech writing which pays better, but at the end of the a day > writing instruction manuals for vaporware, you don't come home and want > to write. You don't want to read. You don't want text anywhere near > you. You don't even want to watch TV because it has credits and those > little logos in the bottom corner. You want to take up something like > cooking. Maybe Indian cooking. Something you can eat. Something that > reminds you that your brain is connected to your stomach. > > So what do people think are "good jobs for writing?" As opposed to the > "good jobs for writers"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:42:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: ford trashing?canada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" you try and turn back halfway across the peace bridge billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:25:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: the sense of being right As an alternative to the "poetry & money" jive, here's a very discussable paragraph - especially in the context of pervasive "language" based "avant-garde" postmodernisms in poetry today: "The question whether something is 'right' or 'wrong' in a given historical framework displaces the epistemological question whether something is 'true' or 'false'. Thus it may very well be that a subject does not first 'mean' something that it subsequently expresses through language (which thus would be reduced to a tool available to us). It may also be "that, rather than being master of an 'objective' world above which it stands, consciousness is instead an effect of social and unconscious processes which it could never fully 'know' or control; that all models that provide general explanations of the world are to a certain extent theoretical fictions."(*) But this does not contradict the necessity of discussing literary texts as representative texts, as models of human behavior, and as participants in the constant struggle for interpretive power within society. If anything, an overemphasis on epistemological questions prevents us from seeing that the literary media and the public spheres of cultural production are to be highly prized socially because they make it possible for individuals to work through their material experiences and understand them as 'consciously' as they can." (*)Michael Ryan, _Marxism_ - from Jochen Schulte-Sasse, Introduction to:_Theory of the Avant-Garde_, by Peter Burger. It seems to me that a thorough comprehension of what Schulte-Sasse is saying here would undercut the basic "theoretical" rift between "mainstream" poetics and "experimental" poetics, in the US at least. Poetries that maintain the autonomy and otherness of artistic language would be seen as more reactionary than progressive in a political sense, as upholding stable relations between art (as an autonomous sphere unable to impact on "reality") and society. This in itself is neither right nor wrong; but one would have to reconsider what we want to call "experimental" in a social sense - obscure speech, or "interpretive" speech, in the sense Schulte-Sasse outlines here. I don't want to pretend I'm saying anything new here - it's just new to me. That is I've leaned in this direction but haven't found it put so clearly before. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:50:41 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: Query: Robert Duncan on VOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, here's an obscure question for you. In was quite surprised to find out that Robert Duncan's essay "Towards and Open Universe" was read by Duncan over the air, broadcast by the Voice of America. Does anyone know whether there is a recording of this broadcast? If so, where can I find it? Best, Bob ----------- Robert Archambeau Engelska Institutionen Lund University, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:12:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Whoever started this thread should be censured for Poetics List contamination. I mean, this isn't the UB Political Spam List, is it? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:03:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dee morris Subject: hejinian/coolidge/rova event coming up fast In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Stop! What's that Sound?" University of Iowa symposium on improvisation and composition in the arts Thursday, Oct. 15 through Saturday morning, Oct. 17 Readings, panels, a concert, and open multi-arts improvisation sessions with Lyn Hejinian, Clark Coolidge, the Rova Saxophone Quartet, and painter Tom Soule. Discussions of interrelationships among music, poetry and painting, panels on the role of improvisation and crossdisciplinary approaches to composition. All events free and open to the public. For the Oct. 16 concert, Rova will play a combination of original works by members of the quartet and works commissioned by Rova with funds from Meet the Composer USA Commissioning Fund. The program includes pieces from "Freedom in Fragments," a long suite written for Rova by Fred Frith, which the quartet will record in 1999. Rova's influences include Ornette Coleman, Thelonious Monk and Anthony Braxton, Charles Ives, Olivier Messiaen, Ianis Xenakis, and John Cage. A leader in "collective improvisation," the merging of composed and improvisation music, "Rova is not only the hardest-working saxophone quartet in blow-business," says the San Francisco Chronicle, "they are also the finest." As listers will know, Lyn Hejinian began publishing her poems in magazines in 1963 and 1964. By the mid-1970s, she had begun editing the Tuumba Press series, which included a wide range of contemporary writing by poets and critics. Among her major publications are "Gesualdo," "Writing Is an Aid to Memory," "My Life," "Oxota: A Short Russian Novel," "The Cell," and "The Cold of Poetry." She is co-editorof the Poetics Journal with Barrett Watten . Her critical essays are forthcoming from the University of California, Berkeley. Clark Coolidge's poetic career spans 33 years and an almost equal number of books. A jazz drummer himself, his collections of poetry include "Solution Passage: Poems 1978-1981," "Sound as Thought: Poems 1982-1984," "Own Face," and "The ROVA Improvisations," which began as preparations to compose liner notes for Rova's album "The Crowd." David Antin calls Coolidge's improvisatory constructions "the work of an experimental master doing a set of brilliant takes on the convention." THURSDAY, OCT. 15 10:30 a.m. "Sound as Thought as Poem": Poets Lyn Hejinian and Clark Coolidge 1:30 p.m. "The Interaction of Improvisation with Composition": Panelists Lyn Hejinian, Clark Coolidge, Tom Soule, John Rapson and members of Rova will discuss the ways they blend improvisation with composition with examples from each artist. 7:30 p.m. Reading by Lyn Hejinian and Clark Coolidge 9:30 p.m. Open improvisation with the jazz combo Oddbar Trio Plus Trombone, as well as Rova and other guests from the conference FRIDAY OCT. 16 10:30 a.m. "Sound as Thought as Music: Extended Techniques for Saxophone": lecture/demonstration by the Rova Saxophone Quartet 1:30 p.m. "Sources": Panelists Hejinian, Coolidge, Soule John Rapson and Rova will discuss the inter-disciplinary approaches they use, with particular emphasis on ideas that originate in other artistic genres and that blend diverse styles in a single work. Included will be a collaborative piece by clarinetist Robert Paredes and poet Clark Coolidge 8 p.m. Concert by Rova Saxophone Quartet SATURDAY, OCT. 17 10 a.m. "Sound as Thought as Painting": painter Tom Soule on the interplay between music and art 11:30 conference wrap-up For further information, posters, and/or directions, backchannel dee-morris@uiowa.edu, richard-quinn@uiowa.edu, or eric-neel@uiowa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:08:43 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Content-Type: text/plain Trace, I'm coming late to this discussion (not spending 24-hours-a-day at the list, I guess), but I just wanted to say I really like yr limerick after Zuk. Let's all do this with all sorts of old forms! Mark DuCharme >Hi all, > >Just came across a book of limericks written by Isaac Asimov and John >Ciardi. I am dumbfounded by this collection and am left speechless, but >it got me wondering if there have been any so-called language-centered >limericks, or if any of you have attempted to write in this form or even >break the form but still keeping the "essence of limerick" (a new >cologne?). > >I've attempted a few but am reluctant to post them. (I'll wait to see >if anybody else has any...) > >--trace-- > > >P.S. alright, here's mine: > >Lotus (after Zukofsky) > > genuine dire snow unfold when > mercury delve changeling-in-us sew wren > soap trunk cotton asthma tear > ink wrought life thistle lair > asking-always daemon-lent home ever been > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:35:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: The 4th decade of experiments Content-Type: text/plain I've been trying to stay out of the debates of late, but this one gets my goat. This is not to say that Henry (or anyone) is not allowed their personal taste-- but to suggest that "experiments" NECESSARILY constitute gimmickry is at best shortsighted. (Let alone to suggest that the best poets who make use of them cannot tell the difference between weak, inauthentic or "authentic" poems, regardless of the trivial question of HOW they were written). I think the poetry of Bernadette Mayer or Jackson Mac Low is extremely AUTHENTIC; beside it, quick a lot of "nonexperimental" verse is shown up for the "personal voice" gimmick it is (or can be)... Mark DuCharme >44. Forget about experiment & try writing authentic poetry without gimmicks >and pseudo-sophistication that might actually mean something to yourself & >others. Toughest experiment of all. > >The greater portion of the rhyming tribe >(Give ear, my friend, for thou hast been a scribe) >Are led astray by some peculiar lure. >I labor to be brief - become obscure; >One falls by following elegance too fast; >Another soars, inflated with bombast; >Too low a third crawls on, afraid to fly, >He spins his subject to satiety; >Absurdly varying, he at last engraves >Fish in the woods, and boars beneath the waves! >(Byron) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: a bucket of cold water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I woke up this morning to discover that the list was locked the night before, I believe around 8pm Eastern Time. C'mon y'all. This wouldn't happen if you would simply consider your posts before sending them. Think of it as a giant daily scrapbook. It's limited. We can fill it up, but don't waste the pages. Please take chit chat and snickering/bickering backchannel. Remember, this is a form of publication--it's unedited contents are freely available to the general public in the archives. Remember, this is a form of publication. Please-- let's raise the quality of the conversation a bit, eh? While I try to check email twice a day, sometimes I am not able to for whatever reason. I'm still landing in my new found igloo on the edge of the mountains south east of San Diego. From Mt Helix the smoke from the fires looks like an oil spill rivering its way down the sky. Finally getting settled here, I throw my hat into the air in a very Mary Richards sort of way, turning and twisting, finally on my own. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:03:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: the sense of being right In-Reply-To: from "Henry Gould" at Oct 7, 98 03:25:40 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me, Henry, that you jump top the conclusion that Schulte-Sasse'sideas are not applicable to an experimental aesthetic. This jump can be separated into 2 mistaken leaps of faith: 1) that "experimental" is somehow equal to "autonomous"; and 2) (related) that experimental writing can't/doesn't engage/communicate with "the public spheres of cultural production." Which is to say that experimental language is not communicable langauge. I don't think this is true in the least. In fact, I would go so far as to state the oppposite: that a *purely* traditional speech/language (if there was such a thing, which there isn't) wouldn't communicate at all, since communications is not a matter of reiterations but of adjustments, responses, antagonisms, ameliorations. Paul Goodman has said, in discussing the poetic avant-garde, "Poetic speech which drastically alters the code communicates better than ordinary speech - one has to give into it to get something out of it." What Goodman means (he explains it in great detail) is that a certain lack of familiarity w/ the code with which one is presented is the prerequisite to dialogue, & to the on-going assembly of new communities. Otherwise, why talk at all. I find this true of any poem which doesn't in one way or another (and there are many, many ways to do it, some which most of us wouldn't call "avant-grade") try to alter our sense of what a "poem" is by sugesting what it *might* be: it never really enters the social sphere, the public sphere, b/c it simply lies down like an identical transparency on what's already there. -m. According to Henry Gould: > > As an alternative to the "poetry & money" jive, here's a very discussable > paragraph - especially in the context of pervasive "language" based > "avant-garde" postmodernisms in poetry today: > > the necessity of discussing literary texts as representative > texts, as models of human behavior, and as participants in the constant > struggle for interpretive power within society. If anything, an overemphasis > on epistemological questions prevents us from seeing that the literary media > and the public spheres of cultural production are to be highly prized socially > because they make it possible for individuals to work through their material > experiences and understand them as 'consciously' as they can." > > (*)Michael Ryan, _Marxism_ > > - from Jochen Schulte-Sasse, Introduction to:_Theory of the Avant-Garde_, > by Peter Burger. > > It seems to me that a thorough comprehension of what Schulte-Sasse is saying > here would undercut the basic "theoretical" rift between "mainstream" poetics > and "experimental" poetics, in the US at least. Poetries that maintain the > autonomy and otherness of artistic language would be seen as more reactionary > than progressive in a political sense, as upholding stable relations between > art (as an autonomous sphere unable to impact on "reality") and society. > This in itself is neither right nor wrong; but one would have to reconsider > what we want to call "experimental" in a social sense - obscure speech, > or "interpretive" speech, in the sense Schulte-Sasse outlines here. > > I don't want to pretend I'm saying anything new here - it's just new to me. > That is I've leaned in this direction but haven't found it put so clearly > before. > - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:07:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: the sense of being right In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:03:51 -0400 from On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:03:51 -0400 Michael Magee said: >It seems to me, Henry, that you jump top the conclusion that >Schulte-Sasse'sideas are not applicable to an experimental aesthetic. >This jump can be separated into 2 mistaken leaps of faith: 1) that >"experimental" is somehow equal to "autonomous"; and 2) (related) that >experimental writing can't/doesn't engage/communicate with "the public >spheres of cultural production." Which is to say that experimental >language is not communicable langauge. I don't think this is true in the >least. In fact, I would go so far as to state the oppposite: that a >*purely* traditional speech/language (if there was such a thing, which >there isn't) wouldn't communicate at all, since communications is not a >matter of reiterations but of adjustments, responses, antagonisms, >ameliorations. Paul Goodman has said, in discussing the poetic >avant-garde, "Poetic speech which drastically alters the code communicates >better than ordinary speech - one has to give into it to get something out >of it." What Goodman means (he explains it in great detail) is that a >certain lack of familiarity w/ the code with which one is presented is the >prerequisite to dialogue, & to the on-going assembly of new communities. Mike, your points are well taken. But I was not arguing against experiment per se. I was trying to redefine what IS really experimental. Or mumble in that direction. This quote from "Theory of the Avant-Garde" (intro) is like skimming the surface of a very longwinded & complex debate that Burger's book addresses (think of those names: Marcuse, Adorno, Jameson... enough to send shivers up your spine). I haven't read them either. (I know some of you HAVE!!) Nor is Schulte-Sasse rejecting "experiment" per se. But he's talking about 2 contrasted aspects of language use - a philosophical skepticism of the ability of literary language to convey truth, as opposed to a more historical sense of literary language as ONE kind of communication within existential realities in which justice - the sense of right & wrong - is a present actuality. & I was trying to contrast two tendencies - I know this is a grid & that things cross over the grid (Jordan?) - one that, say, deconstructs bourgois reality "to infinity", and "representation" & "everyday speech" etc. along with it; the other, that values representation as a communicable interpretation of real situations. So I would agree with Goodman, I guess, but I wouldn't say flatly that "poetic speech which drastically alters the code communicates better..." etc. It's a continuum, a two-way street. - just another version of stuff I've been saying (ad nauseam to many) on the list for years... - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:36:03 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: the sense of being right Content-Type: text/plain Hey Michael, I'd be interested (& maybe others on this list would too) if you could cite the title of the book you refer to by Goodman. Thanks, Mark DuCharme >It seems to me, Henry, that you jump top the conclusion that >Schulte-Sasse'sideas are not applicable to an experimental aesthetic. >This jump can be separated into 2 mistaken leaps of faith: 1) that >"experimental" is somehow equal to "autonomous"; and 2) (related) that >experimental writing can't/doesn't engage/communicate with "the public >spheres of cultural production." Which is to say that experimental >language is not communicable langauge. I don't think this is true in the >least. In fact, I would go so far as to state the oppposite: that a >*purely* traditional speech/language (if there was such a thing, which >there isn't) wouldn't communicate at all, since communications is not a >matter of reiterations but of adjustments, responses, antagonisms, >ameliorations. Paul Goodman has said, in discussing the poetic >avant-garde, "Poetic speech which drastically alters the code communicates >better than ordinary speech - one has to give into it to get something out >of it." What Goodman means (he explains it in great detail) is that a >certain lack of familiarity w/ the code with which one is presented is the >prerequisite to dialogue, & to the on-going assembly of new communities. >Otherwise, why talk at all. I find this true of any poem which doesn't >in one way or another (and there are many, many ways to do it, some which >most of us wouldn't call "avant-grade") try to alter our sense of what a >"poem" is by sugesting what it *might* be: it never really enters the >social sphere, the public sphere, b/c it simply lies down like an >identical transparency on what's already there. > >-m. > > According to Henry Gould: >> >> As an alternative to the "poetry & money" jive, here's a very discussable >> paragraph - especially in the context of pervasive "language" based >> "avant-garde" postmodernisms in poetry today: >> >> the necessity of discussing literary texts as representative >> texts, as models of human behavior, and as participants in the constant >> struggle for interpretive power within society. If anything, an overemphasis >> on epistemological questions prevents us from seeing that the literary media >> and the public spheres of cultural production are to be highly prized socially >> because they make it possible for individuals to work through their material >> experiences and understand them as 'consciously' as they can." >> >> (*)Michael Ryan, _Marxism_ >> >> - from Jochen Schulte-Sasse, Introduction to:_Theory of the Avant-Garde_, >> by Peter Burger. >> >> It seems to me that a thorough comprehension of what Schulte-Sasse is saying >> here would undercut the basic "theoretical" rift between "mainstream" poetics >> and "experimental" poetics, in the US at least. Poetries that maintain the >> autonomy and otherness of artistic language would be seen as more reactionary >> than progressive in a political sense, as upholding stable relations between >> art (as an autonomous sphere unable to impact on "reality") and society. >> This in itself is neither right nor wrong; but one would have to reconsider >> what we want to call "experimental" in a social sense - obscure speech, >> or "interpretive" speech, in the sense Schulte-Sasse outlines here. >> >> I don't want to pretend I'm saying anything new here - it's just new to me. >> That is I've leaned in this direction but haven't found it put so clearly >> before. >> - Henry Gould >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:44:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: The 4th decade of experiments In-Reply-To: <19981007003556.11411.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree, not surprisingly, with Mark DuCharme... My taste does run to the gimmicky--if you define Calvino, Perec, Mathews, Queneau, Mayer, Borges, Pessoa, Padgett, Koch, as gimmicky writers. Are these writers inauthentic? I think not. I also love other types of writers--Rilke, Lorca, Celan, Dickinson... Here is the quote of Borges I was referring to the other day: "Around 1930 I believed, under the influence of Macedonio Fernandez, that beauty is the privilege of a few authors; now I know that it is common and that it is lying in wait for us in the casual pages of mediocre authors or in a conversation on the street. Thus, my ignorance of Malayasian or Hungarian letter is total, but I am convinced that if I had time for studying them, I would find there all the nourishment necessary for my spirit." Jxnxthxn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:50:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: The 4th decade of experiments In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:44:40 -0500 from Just for the record, I never said, ala Mark DuCharme, that experiment was NECESSARILY gimmicky. Nor did I say I disliked gimmickry in all writing. I merely proposed an experiment - an unusual one for this list, which I still say is the most difficult experiment of all. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:28:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anastasios Kozaitis Subject: Re: the sense of being right In-Reply-To: <19981007163603.20037.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "A poem is energy transferred from where the poet got it, by way of the poem itself to, all the way over to, the reader. Then the poem itself must, at all points, be a high energy construct, and at all points, an energy discharge. To do this the poet can go by no track other than the one the poem under hand declares for itself. Thus he has to behave, and be, instant by instant, aware of some several forces just now beginning to be examined." "Let's start from the smallest particle of all, the syllable. It is the king and pin of versification, what rules and holds together the lines, the larger forms, of a poem. If the syllable, that fine creature, were more allowed to lead the harmony on...." "Is it not the play of the mind we are after, is not that that shows whether a mind is there at all?" --from Olson's Projective Verse If one were to proceed from Olson's tack than any notions of experimental versus mainstream and/or traditional speech versus poetic speech (whatever those demarcations are????) are moot. It is what the poem demands. And, I believe, that in many ways Olson wrote this to refute WCW's The Revolution of the Word. WCW atomized the word; Olson universalizes the syllable, and draws its interrelations not only with the word(s) but also the harmony and music of it all. --Anastasios Kozaitis At 09:36 AM 10/7/98 PDT, you wrote: >Hey Michael, > >I'd be interested (& maybe others on this list would too) if you could >cite the title of the book you refer to by Goodman. Thanks, > >Mark DuCharme > > >>It seems to me, Henry, that you jump top the conclusion that >>Schulte-Sasse'sideas are not applicable to an experimental aesthetic. >>This jump can be separated into 2 mistaken leaps of faith: 1) that >>"experimental" is somehow equal to "autonomous"; and 2) (related) that >>experimental writing can't/doesn't engage/communicate with "the public >>spheres of cultural production." Which is to say that experimental >>language is not communicable langauge. I don't think this is true in >the >>least. In fact, I would go so far as to state the oppposite: that a >>*purely* traditional speech/language (if there was such a thing, which >>there isn't) wouldn't communicate at all, since communications is not a >>matter of reiterations but of adjustments, responses, antagonisms, >>ameliorations. Paul Goodman has said, in discussing the poetic >>avant-garde, "Poetic speech which drastically alters the code >communicates >>better than ordinary speech - one has to give into it to get something >out >>of it." What Goodman means (he explains it in great detail) is that a >>certain lack of familiarity w/ the code with which one is presented is >the >>prerequisite to dialogue, & to the on-going assembly of new >communities. >>Otherwise, why talk at all. I find this true of any poem which doesn't >>in one way or another (and there are many, many ways to do it, some >which >>most of us wouldn't call "avant-grade") try to alter our sense of what >a >>"poem" is by sugesting what it *might* be: it never really enters the >>social sphere, the public sphere, b/c it simply lies down like an >>identical transparency on what's already there. >> >>-m. >> >> According to Henry Gould: >>> >>> As an alternative to the "poetry & money" jive, here's a very >discussable >>> paragraph - especially in the context of pervasive "language" based >>> "avant-garde" postmodernisms in poetry today: >>> >>> the necessity of discussing literary texts as representative >>> texts, as models of human behavior, and as participants in the >constant >>> struggle for interpretive power within society. If anything, an >overemphasis >>> on epistemological questions prevents us from seeing that the >literary media >>> and the public spheres of cultural production are to be highly prized >socially >>> because they make it possible for individuals to work through their >material >>> experiences and understand them as 'consciously' as they can." >>> >>> (*)Michael Ryan, _Marxism_ >>> >>> - from Jochen Schulte-Sasse, Introduction to:_Theory of the >Avant-Garde_, >>> by Peter Burger. >>> >>> It seems to me that a thorough comprehension of what Schulte-Sasse is >saying >>> here would undercut the basic "theoretical" rift between "mainstream" >poetics >>> and "experimental" poetics, in the US at least. Poetries that >maintain the >>> autonomy and otherness of artistic language would be seen as more >reactionary >>> than progressive in a political sense, as upholding stable relations >between >>> art (as an autonomous sphere unable to impact on "reality") and >society. >>> This in itself is neither right nor wrong; but one would have to >reconsider >>> what we want to call "experimental" in a social sense - obscure >speech, >>> or "interpretive" speech, in the sense Schulte-Sasse outlines here. >>> >>> I don't want to pretend I'm saying anything new here - it's just new >to me. >>> That is I've leaned in this direction but haven't found it put so >clearly >>> before. >>> - Henry Gould >>> >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:07:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Outlet (2) Fairyland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Outlet (2) Fairyland=20 is available now....featuring poetry, fiction, photography, & criticism engaged in fairytales, by:=20 =20 Merle Bachman=20 Todd Baron=20 Leslie Bary=20 John Byrum=20 MTC Cronin=20 Jenny Della Santa=20 Ann Guy=20 Amir Hamed=20 Joshilyn Jackson=20 Paul Jackson=20 Tan Lin=20 Debra Moses=20 Michelle Murphy=20 Linda Russo=20 Standard Schaefer=20 Elizabeth Treadwell=20 =20 =20 + REVIEWS=20 (Grace Lovelace on =93Henry Fool=94 & =20 Johanna Isaacson on Dodie Bellamy=92s =20 The Letters of Mina Harker)=20 =20 =93The birds woke up and sang. The cool, rational sun surprised him;= morning had broken on his exhiliration and the mountain now lay behind him. He looked over his shoulder and saw, how, with distance, the mountain began to acquire a flat, two-dimensional look. It was already turning into a picture of itself, into the postcard hastily bought as a souvenir of childhood at a railway station or a border post, the newspaper cutting, the snapshot he would show in strange towns, strange cities, other countries he could not, at this moment, imagine, whose names he did not yet know, places where he would say, in strange languages, =91That was where I spent my childhood. Imagine!=92=94=20 =20 - Angela Carter, =93Peter and the= Wolf=94=20 60 pp., color cover =20 **Please make checks payable to Elizabeth Treadwell** Single Issues $5=20 Subscribe!=20 =20 __Please send me a year of Outlet for $10 (2 issues)=20 __Please send me two years for $20 (4 issues)=20 =20 Name_________________________=20 Address_______________________=20 =20 (subscribers outside the U.S., please add $2/1yr, $4/2) =20 Mail to: PO Box 9013, Berkeley, CA 94709, U.S.A.=20 Thanks for your support!=20 = ___________________________________________________________________________= _ Submit!=20 =20 Please send work via regular mail (please include a SASE). When first submitting, please consider a 5 page limit. Most of our issues will have themes: for these, check our website, or the current issue. You may SASE for details if you like. Our deadlines are June 15 and December 15 of each year. You may expect a response within a month of these dates. However, please know that we cannot respond without a SASE or an email address, and cannot return work without sufficient postage on a SASE. =20 Please note that submissions of chapbook manuscripts are by request only.=20 =20 Outlet (3) Ornament will include work which addresses fashion: ornament, the (synthetic) fixtures of the body, & the languages/technicalities of attire, both contemporary & historical. Deadline December 15, 1998.=20 =20 Outlet (4) Themeless, for a change, with a slight inclination toward maps & weather. Deadline June 15, 1999.=20 =20 Thank you.=20 ____________________________________________________________________=20 Limited Edition Chapbooks=20 from Double Lucy =20 =20 *=20 Home of Grammar, Sarah Anne Cox=20 =20 The Marriage of the Well Built Head, Yedda Morrison=20 =20 Love Sentence, Lynne Tillman*=20 =20 Eve Doe (becoming an epic poem), =20 Elizabeth Treadwell=20 =20 =20 =20 $3 each, postage paid=20 * forthcoming in our 1999 prose series, $5=20 =20 (checks to E. Treadwell)=20 =20 DOUBLE LUCY BOOKS=20 PO BOX 9013=20 BERKELEY, CA 94709 USA=20 =20 =20 =93When I first heard [the name of your press], I imagined Lucy from Peanuts looking at her reflection in a glassy pond, sort of like Narcissus.=94 = =20 =97 Jim Brashear ____________________________________________________________________________ ____=20 NOTE TO OUR DEAR CONTRIBUTORS, SUBSCRIBERS, & TRADERS: your copies will be mailed out within the week. thx, ET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:28:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: the sense of being right In-Reply-To: <19981007163603.20037.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Mark DuCharme" at Oct 7, 98 09:36:03 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure, it's a great book called *Speaking and Language: Defense of Poetry* (London: Wildwood House, 1971). Goodman was a poet & Gestalt psychologist but here he's doing a kind of Burkean thing w/ discussions of langauge as symbolic action. But he has hs own smart insights to add. He's been somewhat forgotten among important predecesors to the New American POetry crowd, but he was at Black Mountain & also influenced O'Hara. -m. According to Mark DuCharme: > > Hey Michael, > > I'd be interested (& maybe others on this list would too) if you could > cite the title of the book you refer to by Goodman. Thanks, > > Mark DuCharme > > > >It seems to me, Henry, that you jump top the conclusion that > >Schulte-Sasse'sideas are not applicable to an experimental aesthetic. > >This jump can be separated into 2 mistaken leaps of faith: 1) that > >"experimental" is somehow equal to "autonomous"; and 2) (related) that > >experimental writing can't/doesn't engage/communicate with "the public > >spheres of cultural production." Which is to say that experimental > >language is not communicable langauge. I don't think this is true in > the > >least. In fact, I would go so far as to state the oppposite: that a > >*purely* traditional speech/language (if there was such a thing, which > >there isn't) wouldn't communicate at all, since communications is not a > >matter of reiterations but of adjustments, responses, antagonisms, > >ameliorations. Paul Goodman has said, in discussing the poetic > >avant-garde, "Poetic speech which drastically alters the code > communicates > >better than ordinary speech - one has to give into it to get something > out > >of it." What Goodman means (he explains it in great detail) is that a > >certain lack of familiarity w/ the code with which one is presented is > the > >prerequisite to dialogue, & to the on-going assembly of new > communities. > >Otherwise, why talk at all. I find this true of any poem which doesn't > >in one way or another (and there are many, many ways to do it, some > which > >most of us wouldn't call "avant-grade") try to alter our sense of what > a > >"poem" is by sugesting what it *might* be: it never really enters the > >social sphere, the public sphere, b/c it simply lies down like an > >identical transparency on what's already there. > > > >-m. > > > > According to Henry Gould: > >> > >> As an alternative to the "poetry & money" jive, here's a very > discussable > >> paragraph - especially in the context of pervasive "language" based > >> "avant-garde" postmodernisms in poetry today: > >> > >> the necessity of discussing literary texts as representative > >> texts, as models of human behavior, and as participants in the > constant > >> struggle for interpretive power within society. If anything, an > overemphasis > >> on epistemological questions prevents us from seeing that the > literary media > >> and the public spheres of cultural production are to be highly prized > socially > >> because they make it possible for individuals to work through their > material > >> experiences and understand them as 'consciously' as they can." > >> > >> (*)Michael Ryan, _Marxism_ > >> > >> - from Jochen Schulte-Sasse, Introduction to:_Theory of the > Avant-Garde_, > >> by Peter Burger. > >> > >> It seems to me that a thorough comprehension of what Schulte-Sasse is > saying > >> here would undercut the basic "theoretical" rift between "mainstream" > poetics > >> and "experimental" poetics, in the US at least. Poetries that > maintain the > >> autonomy and otherness of artistic language would be seen as more > reactionary > >> than progressive in a political sense, as upholding stable relations > between > >> art (as an autonomous sphere unable to impact on "reality") and > society. > >> This in itself is neither right nor wrong; but one would have to > reconsider > >> what we want to call "experimental" in a social sense - obscure > speech, > >> or "interpretive" speech, in the sense Schulte-Sasse outlines here. > >> > >> I don't want to pretend I'm saying anything new here - it's just new > to me. > >> That is I've leaned in this direction but haven't found it put so > clearly > >> before. > >> - Henry Gould > >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:09:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Ribot Conference Reminder Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just so people know, there is a discount available on rooms at the Furama Hotel ($65 a night-- two beds), but reservations need to be made by late next week. Furama Hotel (310)670-8111 ext. 66445 Panelists include Catherine Wagner, Jacques Debrot, Franklin Bruno, myself. I'm personally excited because Sanguinetti will be there Friday and he's one of my favorite Italian poets. People who were there last year may be surprised how sharp this thing is going to look at Otis. Good music and booze. Here is what it is: GENERATION a literary & arts conference celebrating the publication of Ribot 6 - Over 60 Under 30 (poets & visual artists from around the world, born before 1938 after 1968) October 30-31, 1998 at Otis College of Art & Design (9045 Lincoln Blvd., Los Angeles 90045) Opening reception and publication party, Friday, October 30, 7:00 p.m. Symposia, Saturday, October 31, 10:30 a.m.- 5:30 p.m. "Innovation/Repetition" - "Generation/Presentation" - "Degeneration/Conservation" Masked Ball, Saturday, 8:30 p.m. Attendance free and open to all ages. For more information, 310 665 6920 or e-mail: pvangel@earthlink.net / ssschaefer@aol.com This event is co-sponsored by the Communications Design, Fine Arts and Liberal Studies Departments of Otis college of Art & Design, in cooperation with L.A. Books. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: "grid shimmers" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shimming is like swimming not one of my physical languages (I can _read_ it...). However, if there is a grid on land, it's amusing, a false situation that invites false behavior (e.g. the famous "elegance" of math). Henry mentions skepticism about literary language and truth value. Well, this is one from poetry elementary school so we should be right to wonder about it (at it?), but the thought is, poetry is nothing but lies, but they're lies that tell the truth ordinary truth-telling avoids. You tell these lies to transmit some (true??) emotion. This is probably a hokey abstract-expressionist-influenced (read: Kierkegaardian?) way of thinking about it. Poetry holds truth value in disregard, preferring what sounds right or looks right -- and poetry that sounds wrong or looks wrong is no better for its asceticism -- it only catches the people who notice that looking right can be a trick. Bach is someone who exhibits grid behavior, "right"? As opposed to road rage. end o' the day -- J ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:02:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: the sense of being right Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry -- I wonder if Adorno's way of thinking about "autonomous" art might be another way of mediating the "mainstream's" claim of autonomy for art that, using his definitions, might seem considerably less autonomous -- I'm thinking of some of his expressions in his debates with Benjamin and others -- in the end, I don't think Adorno's distinction holds up so well either (and given his remarks on jazz it's always difficult for me to read him at all) -- but his approach to "autonomy" seems to have been forgotten in most U.S. debates on these issues -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:13:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: L=I=M=E=R=I=C=K Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:22 PM 10/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Aldon -- > >You are absolutely correct -- I apologize -- I'm not from Limmerick, just >Brooklyn via Lublin. > >There once was a foot that fell flat. . . I once met a flatfoot in Brooklyn! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:54:33 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Younger Poets Issue 10 Content-Type: text/plain Mike & Dale's Younger Poets Summer 98 is available, finally. This tenth issue offers what some are calling "the most exciting expressions in contemporary poetics." See what the buzz is about in this hot issue which includes: Gerrit Lansing, Sarah Menefee, Jose Lezama Lima (translated by Roberto Tejada), Vincent Farnsworth, Patrick Doud, d.a. dubuc, Noel Andersen Black, Leslie Davis, Dan Featherston, Kenneth Irby, Tom Clark, Lacy L. Schutz, Jeffrey Cyphers Wright, David Lehman, J.J. Campbell, Katrina Dalton, Greg Fuchs, Dawn Michelle Baude, Kevin Opstedal, Douglas Oliver, Brett Evans, Kristin Prevallet, MTC Cronin, Adam Cornford, Michael Price, John Herndon, Geoffery Young, Chris Stroffolino, Hoa Nguyen, and, the Devil himself. Also, presented is an interview with Joanne Kyger, conducted by the editors in May of last year. Back issues of M&D are available for $5 each. For a complete listing of our issues contact Dale Smith. Send checks and contributions to Dale Smith at 2925 Higgins Street, Austin, TX 78722. For $100 we'll enter your manuscript in our Younger Poets first book series. The ghost of Frank O'Hara will judge the manuscripts, awarding prizes for "most original composition," "most strategic use of 'space,'" and "cutest not-so-hidden references to one of seven famed French syllogisms." Anyway, you get the picture. Winner to be determined like Calvin's sheep: predestined. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:15:34 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Hoa Nguyen's DARK Content-Type: text/plain New from Mike & Dale's Press: DARK, a book of poems by Hoa Nguyen with illustrations by Suloni Robertson. Nguyen's poetry dissolves the complex projections of family, love, and work into points of compact revelation. The relationships of self and experience projected through the difficult contours of language focus these poems into visions of life lived, not constructed. Nguyen's attention to the minute details of sound in the poem create a music that reaches into the intensity of noise without giving in to the shapeless, late century chaos of methodology. DARK presents an experience of the US that discerns the values of color amidst apparent liberal erasures of race from 'polite society.' Buy this book while it lasts. Only 300 copies available. $7 Also from M&D Press: Road Trip Through the Four Spheres by John Herndon $5 Sand in the Vaseline by Kevin Opstedal $5 Send checks and/or inquiries to Dale Smith, 2925 Higgins Street, Austin, TX 78722. Don't wait. Become a Younger Poet Today. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:30:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: grid shimmer + meat on the table Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I really only wanted to write in to say that I have been in complete agreement with Jordan Davis's definiton of poetry as lies that point to a truth for 30 years so am gladdened to see him saying it but is such docile agreement on my part sufficient justification for 1/50th of the day's moeity? Write some more, then.Let me see. . . I thought that maybe if I added to Jordan's alternative to Bach's gridlike musical behavior, "road-rage..", "road-rage over a lost penny," my intervention might excuse itself. It would be educive, adducing a difference in art-epochs. But I'm still not sure. I feel like I should rescue Bowering's bon-mot by saying that when he scribbled on my fly I came to attention and saluted as we ran his effort up the flagpole, and that that was how I came into the love of poetry, because in that nonsense would be some lies pointing to a truth, but geez I'm still not sure. Am I part of the problem, or part of a possible way out? Write some more, then. I must say I agree with Joel when other people are perpetrating the nonsense. His is a thankless task, and I'm sure we all realize this and want to make it easier for him. I know I do. But I have trouble coloring the sand in under the line. I hope he will b-c me when I go one toke over it. I would prefer that to public remonstrance. Listafarians who have not met Joel in person have missed a great deal and dont know how lucky we are to have him riding herd on us, and not Ham Meatfist or Jock Strap or Peaches Dobell. I'll write some more... One last attempt at worthwhile relevance (though not at all relevant to the rest of this letter...I hope; it's just that I've started re-reading "Songs of I and E") : what do Listafarians make of that line of Blake's, "And so I stained the water clear"? One might go on at some length in this format, and perhaps should keep a "List Diary" then post once every day or so, on various topics. But would this solve the problem, or only raise new difficulties--a list with fewer posts, but longer? I admit to avoiding the "judging" thread, not that the first few posts werent interesting, but just that the world, I feel, is hopelessly irredeemable in these matters. People form likings for other people and allow these to color their judgement. I have always disapproved of this, while at the same time doing little else. To my observation, everyone does this, whatever they say they do. But of course, since I am persuaded of this from my own experience, I am the more likely to read it in the motives of others. Doesn't this connect via intuition to the feeling of being right? David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:09:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Langpo & Lingprag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last night it was my turn to bring some writing in for analysis in a "linguistic pragmatics" grad course, here at SFU. From the EPC "Authors" page, I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . So, I am wondering if anyone on the list has tried to apply such procedures to "experimental writing", or if they know of any critical works in which a "pragmatic" approach has been used to talk about such writing. From this first attempt, it seems as though "linguistic pragmatics", or "discourse analysis", is unable to address the complexities of experimental writing. Did someone say "duh"? Roger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:25:54 -0700 Reply-To: griffinbaker@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Staining the water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > what do Listafarians make of that line of Blake's, "And so I > stained the water clear"? This is the innocent novice language poet who, once delusionally piping in the pre-verbal outside-the-text, then became a speech-obsessed Beat singing songs of happy cheer, and now, not knowing what he does, because the innocent has no he to do the knowing but instead follows the disappearing-child-in-a-cloud's theory, stupidly picks up a pen and threatens to poison the source of our bodily fluids, all for the sake of ink. Writing corrupts! Experience will teach him that not every child will joy to hear. Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 00:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: hejinian/coolidge/rova event In-Reply-To: <199810080409.AAA29642@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII anyone planning on attending this and willing to write us a report? tom (tmorange@julian.uwo.ca) > >"Stop! What's that Sound?" >University of Iowa symposium on improvisation and composition in the arts >Thursday, Oct. 15 through Saturday morning, Oct. 17 > >Readings, panels, a concert, and open multi-arts improvisation sessions >with Lyn Hejinian, Clark Coolidge, the Rova Saxophone Quartet, and >painter Tom Soule. Discussions of interrelationships among music, >poetry and painting, panels on the role of improvisation and >crossdisciplinary approaches to composition. All events free and open >to the public. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:04:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: hejinian/coolidge/rova event In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tom etc. -- I'll be attending most of these events & will try to post something useful to the list about it. -- Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Tom Orange wrote: > anyone planning on attending this and willing to > write us a report? > > tom > (tmorange@julian.uwo.ca) > > > > >"Stop! What's that Sound?" > >University of Iowa symposium on improvisation and composition in the arts > >Thursday, Oct. 15 through Saturday morning, Oct. 17 > > > >Readings, panels, a concert, and open multi-arts improvisation sessions > >with Lyn Hejinian, Clark Coolidge, the Rova Saxophone Quartet, and > >painter Tom Soule. Discussions of interrelationships among music, > >poetry and painting, panels on the role of improvisation and > >crossdisciplinary approaches to composition. All events free and open > >to the public. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:55:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: Younger Poets Issue 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dale -- I'd like to order the latest issue of Younger Poets and also the new Hoa Hyugen book. Current mailing address is: Simon Schuchat Apartment 803 1001 North Vermont Street Arlington, VA 22201 The check will soon be in the mail -- $12, right? Cheerios, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:59:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: grid shimmer + meat on the table MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't blame Blake for staining the clear water. I generally approve of inversions. I sit by a window dark. I look through a window dark. Eta moi okno, bely ili cherny. Did Blake also stain his furniture? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:15:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: the sense of being right In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:02:42 -0700 from Aldon, I would have to be better read on Adorno to say anything about his take on art autonomy. Peter Burger in this classic text I'm reading (Theory of the Avant-Garde) - no actually the guy writing the intro, Schulte-Sasse - tries to distinguish between Burger's theory & Adorno's - says Adorno was finally a pessimist about art's ability to influence society, because he failed to recognize that art as we know it is mediated to "bourgois-capitalist society" by the INSTITUTION called "art". & that early 20th-cent. avant-garde is essentially an attack on the INSTITUTION of art for the sake of redefining art's relation to society (& thereby redefining what art is). I dunno Adorno. But the general idea of artists as resentful alienated guys upset at being displaced by capitalist commercial pulp culture & thus being the vanguard of a new society is only true if you equate artists with intellectuals. I'm not willing to grant intellectuals that honor. See Montale on these questions. Intellectuals can talk our way to socialism, fine. But that doesn't make them poets. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag In-Reply-To: <199810080409.VAA10372@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Roger Farr" at Oct 7, 98 09:09:57 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger, I don't know who's teaching your "linuistic pragmatics" course but he/she seems not to have read any pragmatists (am I right to assume that that befuddled reaction to Silliman was the *professor's* reaction?). In any event, as I've argued probably too much on this list, American experimental writing is deeply pragmatic. There is no Stein as we know her w/out William James, for instance. Take this: "We ought to say a feeling of *and*, a feeling of *if*, a feeling of *but*, and a feeling of *by*, quite as readily as we say a feeling of *blue* or a feeling of *cold*. Yet we do not: so inveterate has our habit become of recognizing the existence of the substantive parts alone, that langauge almost refuses to lend itself to any other use" (Principles of Psycology, 1: 245-6). James calls for "a re-instatement of the vague to it's proper place in our mental life" (254), and his sense of such propriety is based on a very pragmatic sense of the usefulness of that re-instatement. I've quoted this before but it may be worth quoting again, if for nothing else than to give you, perhaps, some ammunition for your next attempt to bring lang po to class. This is Dewey talking about philosophy but it applies equally to poetry: "A Philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men judge, prize, love and labor…a genuine field of novelty, of real and unpredictable increments of existence, a field for experimentation and invention." See *Characters and Events* (New York: Henry Holt, 1929), Vol. 2, p. 851. Silliman's experimentalism comes out of real egalitarian desires pragmatically considered (stop me, Ron, if your a closet facist or transcendentalist), and his more socialist hopes are, I would say, just as manifest in his formal decisions. It's just that to argue this case takes work and attention to the details of grammar that most people in a seminar aren't willing or able to do. -m. According to Roger Farr: > > Last night it was my turn to bring some writing in for analysis in a > "linguistic pragmatics" grad course, here at SFU. From the EPC "Authors" > page, I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and > circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: > "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem > offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps > that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . > > So, I am wondering if anyone on the list has tried to apply such > procedures to "experimental writing", or if they know of any > critical works in which a "pragmatic" approach has been used to > talk about such writing. From this first attempt, it > seems as though "linguistic pragmatics", or "discourse analysis", is > unable to address the complexities of experimental writing. > > Did someone say "duh"? > > Roger > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:09:38 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: the sense of being white Content-Type: text/plain Henry, one quick question re: Adorno--Do you think what he calls the "culture industry" is the same as "the INSTITUTION called art?" My sense of Adorno's aesthetic criticism is that he held very contradictory views on art's ability to function/exist under current "bourgois-capitalist" systems. You know, the neg dialectic, the snake eating its own tail, etc. Not to deny the pessimism, but to acknowledge the complexity of his views... Dale Dale >Aldon, I would have to be better read on Adorno to say anything about his >take on art autonomy. Peter Burger in this classic text I'm reading >(Theory of the Avant-Garde) - no actually the guy writing the intro, >Schulte-Sasse - tries to distinguish between Burger's theory & Adorno's - >says Adorno was finally a pessimist about art's ability to influence >society, because he failed to recognize that art as we know it is >mediated to "bourgois-capitalist society" by the INSTITUTION called >"art". & that early 20th-cent. avant-garde is essentially an attack >on the INSTITUTION of art for the sake of redefining art's relation to >society (& thereby redefining what art is). > >I dunno Adorno. > >But the general idea of artists as resentful alienated guys upset at >being displaced by capitalist commercial pulp culture & thus being the >vanguard of a new society is only true if you equate artists with >intellectuals. I'm not willing to grant intellectuals that honor. >See Montale on these questions. Intellectuals can talk our way to >socialism, fine. But that doesn't make them poets. - Henry G. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:28:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: An afternoon with Peter Lamborn Wilson Comments: cc: nettime-l@Desk.nl, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Beginning of civilization -- the long long Babylonian CON -- "History" starts at Sumer with the invention of sacred kingship -- and Temple-based debt system. Separation and alienation are not universal human conditions -- they have historic origins. Does it do us any good to know these things? The date and place of our disenfranchisement? I need to know -- please come and discuss. --PLW a talk by PETER LAMBORN WILSON @ DREAMTIME VILLAGE October 24, 1998 1PM $5-$10 donation for the event. author of: Angels, Little Book of Angel Wisdom; Temporary Autonomous Zone; Sacred Drift; Pirate Utopias; Gone to Croaton; Ploughing the Clouds : The Soma Ceremony in Ancient Ireland; Scandal : Studies in Islamic Heresy; The Drunken Universe : An Anthology of Persian Sufi Poetry; Immediatism; Millenium A potluck will follow, bring a dish to share. & a dance party following that. Call ahead for overnight accommodations. You are also invited to help out in our first prairie burn on Oct 23 @ noon. We will be burning 10 acres. Wear appropriate clothing. for more info or directions to Dreamtime Village (in southwestern WI) call 608-625-4619 -- -Dreamtime Village- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:12:29 -0800 >From: Leonard Brink >Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on > >Whoever started this thread should be censured for Poetics List >contamination. >I mean, this isn't the UB Political Spam List, is it? I agree. Elizabeth Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:57:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And linguistic pragmatics is supposed to be what?.... Roger Farr wrote: > Last night it was my turn to bring some writing in for analysis in a > "linguistic pragmatics" grad course, here at SFU. From the EPC "Authors" > page, I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and > circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: > "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem > offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps > that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . > > So, I am wondering if anyone on the list has tried to apply such > procedures to "experimental writing", or if they know of any > critical works in which a "pragmatic" approach has been used to > talk about such writing. From this first attempt, it > seems as though "linguistic pragmatics", or "discourse analysis", is > unable to address the complexities of experimental writing. > > Did someone say "duh"? > > Roger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:02:06 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag Content-Type: text/plain Michael, it seems that what Farr is suggesting is a difficulty for a certain group of students who read Silliman's D E M O. The "pragmatics" you discuss is appropriate to Stein, to Silliman--to a whole tradition of poetics that values the influence of philosophical systems over, or in addtion to, other "poetic" systems. But I also think to bring a text of Silliman's to a poetry seminar would be problematic for an instructor, because critical expectations and the critical tools of articulation are varied and complex. Silliman's texts demand a knowledge of philosphical systems in the West. His texts also function within a poetic tradition more familiar to students of that art. It seems to me that the 'pragmatics' of articulation--poetic, linguistic, philosophical, psychological--are limited by enforced divisions in our thought. In the poem--in Silliman's 'texts'--these elements are complicated, driven into one another, made indistinguishable. I can see how, being submitted to D E M O for the first time might be a bit confusing, and that it calls for more than mere pragmatics from an instructor to engage it, regardless of a pragmatic tradition in the avant garde. The problem here, as always, is how to address the complexities of the whole by way of the contradictory elements of each part, driven by the divisions of our own knowledge. Dale. > >Roger, I don't know who's teaching your "linuistic pragmatics" course but >he/she seems not to have read any pragmatists (am I right to assume that >that befuddled reaction to Silliman was the *professor's* reaction?). In >any event, as I've argued probably too much on this list, American >experimental writing is deeply pragmatic. There is no Stein as we know >her w/out William James, for instance. Take this: > >"We ought to say a feeling of *and*, a feeling of *if*, a feeling of >*but*, and a feeling of *by*, quite as readily as we say a feeling of >*blue* or a feeling of *cold*. Yet we do not: so inveterate has our habit >become of recognizing the existence of the substantive parts alone, that >langauge almost refuses to lend itself to any other use" (Principles of >Psycology, 1: 245-6). > >James calls for "a re-instatement of the vague to it's proper place in our >mental life" (254), and his sense of such propriety is based on a very >pragmatic sense of the usefulness of that re-instatement. I've quoted >this before but it may be worth quoting again, if for nothing else than to >give you, perhaps, some ammunition for your next attempt to bring lang po >to class. This is Dewey talking about philosophy but it applies equally >to poetry: > >"A Philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the >strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a >universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which >is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some respect is >incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way >or that according as men judge, prize, love and labor…a genuine field of >novelty, of real and unpredictable increments of existence, a field for >experimentation and invention." See *Characters and Events* (New York: >Henry Holt, 1929), Vol. 2, p. 851. > >Silliman's experimentalism comes out of real egalitarian desires >pragmatically considered (stop me, Ron, if your a closet facist or >transcendentalist), and his more socialist hopes are, I would say, just as >manifest in his formal decisions. It's just that to argue this case takes >work and attention to the details of grammar that most people in a seminar >aren't willing or able to do. > >-m. > > > > According to Roger Farr: >> > Last night it was my turn to bring some writing in for analysis in a >> "linguistic pragmatics" grad course, here at SFU. From the EPC "Authors" >> page, I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and >> circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: >> "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem >> offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps >> that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . >> >> So, I am wondering if anyone on the list has tried to apply such >> procedures to "experimental writing", or if they know of any >> critical works in which a "pragmatic" approach has been used to >> talk about such writing. From this first attempt, it >> seems as though "linguistic pragmatics", or "discourse analysis", is >> unable to address the complexities of experimental writing. >> >> Did someone say "duh"? >> >> Roger >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:09:54 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: new issue of Contemporary Literature Listafarians: A couple of essay-reviews that may be of interest in the just published Fall issue of Contemporary Literature: Maria Damon, "Poetic Canons: Generative Oxymoron or Stalled-Out Dialectic?", pp. 468-474, on Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry. Hank Lazer, "American Poetry: Accounts of the Present and the Recent Past," pp. 475-504, on Michael Davidson's Ghostlier Demarcations: Modern Poetry and the Material World; Aldon Nielsen's Black Chant: Languages of African-American Postmodernism; and Jed Rasula's The American Poetry Wax Museum: Reality Effects, 1940-1990. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:16:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: the sense of being white In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:09:38 PDT from Dale, "culture industry" sounds like good slang for the institution of art, but as far as connecting Adorno with this somebody else will have to chime in. For someone who's never read Adorno, I've already written "Adorno" way too many times. - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: down the bottle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Poetry holds truth value in disregard, preferring what sounds >right or looks right -- and poetry that sounds wrong or looks wrong is no >better for its asceticism -- it only catches the people who notice that >looking right can be a trick. I would see a lot of your words as falling, yar, between correct & intriguing Jordan. Speaking of noticing looking right can be a trick, I'd say there's a lot of poets who like to see others see them noticing that looking right can be a trick & thereby trying to look wrong & by extension right. That's some of the current NYC post-innovative avant-gardener biz at the moment. I think in San Francisco there's more ice than in New York, & less anxiety about the rightness of looking as cleverly wrong as possible. But no one assumes you're right I don't think when you don't climb mountains with anti-trust lawyers 'cause of the hole in your boot which is a known SF occurence. However, it can be further noted that SF & NYC are two of the most provincial poetry crystal balls in the galaxy. Once, anyway, you start saying "poetry" in that general sense doesn't every statement that follows become instantly wrong? & then right? Isn't Jack Spicer just completely lying in all of his poems (especially that cop out line about nobody listening to poetry)? Do the statements on this list qualify as truth because they're prose, or because they're made by folks who know they're wrong when they're right? Isn't it mostly guys here worrying about how to be right all the time but sounding pretty convinced they are even tho' that means they're wrong in expopoetryland? Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:29:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: the sense of being white In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Culture industry means what we would call "entertainment industry"--popular music, hollywood, etc... I'm not sure Adorno was against "the institution of art" if we mean traditional "high" culture, eg "classical music," literature, paintings. In fact this rather elitist conception of art is exactly what Adorno privileges. God forbid we should ask students of poetry to know about "philosphical traditions in the West" or linguists interested in "pragmatics" to have read William James. This isn't even about being interdisciplinary, it's about knowing what we are talking about on the most basic level. Jose Saramago, Portugese novelist, has won the Nobel prize. He is quite well known in Spain; I have seen interviews with him and the like in my frequent trips there, but I've not read him. On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, henry wrote: > Dale, "culture industry" sounds like good slang for the institution of art, > but as far as connecting Adorno with this somebody else will have to chime > in. For someone who's never read Adorno, I've already written "Adorno" > way too many times. - Henry > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:36:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Barbara Guest Reading in Chicago In-Reply-To: <199810081530.LAA12915@relay.thorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please mark your calendars for an Oct 22, 8pm, reading by Barbara Guest at Columbia College in Chicago. More later on the event, but please note that the ad placed in the Chicago Tribune turns out to have the wrong time on it. Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:38:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Susan Wheeler and Paul Hoover In-Reply-To: <199810081530.LAA12915@relay.thorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tomorrow night at Small Press Traffic, SF: Susan Wheeler and Paul Hoover New COllege Theater 777 Valencia Street 7:30 pm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:05:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: the sense of being white In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For someone who's never read Adorno, I've already written "Adorno" >way too many times. - Henry Henry, What address are you using? Ted hasn't answered e-mail from me in a while. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Paul Sullivan Subject: Re: down the bottle In-Reply-To: <199810081530.LAA12915@relay.thorn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the oft-quoted Spicer poem in question ends ... no One listens to poetry. I take the line break to be a hesitation (reconsideration), ending with the positive "One listens to poetry" so that you get No, one listens to poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag In-Reply-To: <19981008150210.3545.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm not sure that "pragmatics" as linguists use the term has much to do with the James->Dewey->Rorty lineage of American philosophy, though I could be wrong and am awaiting enlightenment. I had a better experience presenting a Bob Perelman poem (the title escapes me, but it contained my favorite line, "Slay a piece of Shit / Syntax as usual") to a seminar of graduate students in a course on discourse analysis. They were a bit baffled by the poem, but got into by trying to identify the various discursive practices that constitute that poem (medical, advertising/promotion, etc). There were still a few people who had trouble with the fact that the poem didn't make sense in the way that a "real poem" (or a Hallmark greeting card for that matter) makes sense. What to do? I wondered. Still, it sounds like my colleagues did better than the lingprag crowd. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago ... not being born is the only tragedy that we can imagine but need never fear --Alden Nowlan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: Frank Bidart Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all Chicago-area list members: Frank Bidart will give a poetry reading Tuesday, October 20, 7 pm, at Northwestern University's Mary & Leigh Block Gallery, 1967 S. Campus Dr. For more information, call the NU English Dept. at 847/491-5769. Andrew Rathmann -------------- Chicago Review 5801 S. Kenwood Ave. Chicago IL 60637-1794 ph/fax 773.702.0887 e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Scharf Subject: Publishers Weekly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Publishers Weekly publishes poetry reviews not weekly but monthly, on the last Monday of every month, with ten or so full reviews (capsules of about 250 words) and ten or so "notes" (shorter) appearing each time. Forthcoming reviews include Bob Perelman's _The Future of Memory_, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge's _Four Year Old Girl_ and many others of interest. It would be wonderful if more poets and publishers on the list would submit books for review. Here's how it works: PW Forecasts, the reviewing side of the magazine, is a "pub date" driven affair. The aim is for the reviews to reach bookstore buyers and others before the book is published. That means that titles need to be submitted for review a *minimum* of three months before they "pub." For most publishers, that means sending some sort of mock-up of the book (a set of typeset pages, or a typescript), rather than a finished book for review. Said mock-up must be held together in some way, be it comb binding, three hole punch, heavy duty staple, or whatever (the actual book is also OK) and accompanied by a letter with the following information: publisher's name, address, phone, fax, etc. book's title, author, price, binding, ISBN number eventual number of pages in the finished book distributor, if any month of publication All the above info. is essential, and the pub month particularly so. (If you submit a title for review that you then find will be later than expected, please send an alert.) A short bio of the author and list of previous titles published by the press help. Send material to Poetry Forecasts Publishers Weekly 245 West 17th Street New York, NY 10011 Submissions are not generally returned, and publishers are usually not notified that a book will be reviewed. To check in, fax Forecasts at 212-463-6631 or send a letter to the above. PW is skewed toward big corp. publishers, no question. Small press titles published in the months of September, October, November & March, April, May, June are more likely to be squeezed out by the larger presses, who tend toward fall & spring lists. Chapbooks are almost never reviewed. Publishers with a distributor (like SPD) are much more likely to be reviewed than those without. Roof, Atelos, O, Tender Buttons, Kelsey Street, Talisman, What and others have had or will have had titles reviewed or mentioned in the last year or so. It would be great to add to that list. Often, books that aren't selected are sent along to reviewers anyway, in the hope that they will pitch a review elsewhere. PW has a circulation of, I think, nearly 40,000 (all of whom avidly read the poetry reviews) and tells prospective advertisers it reaches more than twice that. Subscriptions are absurdly expensive, but most local and university libraries get it. Even if it's not displayed as part of the library's current periodicals, the librarian in charge of acquisitions might be persuaded to allow a perusal of internal copies. Thanks --Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:27:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain "experimental," or what I feel is heavily opaque, poetry. Actually, I would say instead of "I think I'm being made fun of here, that "I think I'm being completely ignored here," rather than attribute any malicious or sadistic intent to the writer. I can feel invisible, not usually mocked. But how democratic is that? To be left completely alone, isolated, with a "template" style of writing which can be interpreted any way I choose, with whatever perceptual tools/capacities I choose? Is that "democracy?" As I ask this question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely opaque, "private" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't refer to that particular work in my impulsive response. I refer instead to work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone "experiment" on my time, with no effort to offer anything in return for the time I've invested. Anyway...this is a "feeling-level" response, rather than a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to be "democratic" and "egalitarian" can often leave a reader feeling "one-down," "invisible," "isolated," and "unequal" (to the task). << I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:47:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain "mainstream," or what I feel is heavily transparent, poetry. To be left completely alone, isolated, with a style of writing which can, supposedly, be interpreted in one way by its readership, with some set of shared perceptual tools/capacities I refuse/apparently don't have? As I ask this question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely transparent, "public" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just read a copy of People magazine? or watch TV? I haven't read much mainstream work recently, so I don't refer to any particular work in my response. I refer instead to work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone tell me what "we all" think, with no effort to let me participate, despite the time I've invested. This, too, is a "feeling-level" response, rather than a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to be "mainstream" and "transparent" can often leave this reader feeling "one-down," "invisible," and "uninvited." Aviva Vogel wrote: > I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain > "experimental," or what I feel is heavily opaque, poetry. Actually, I would > say instead of "I think I'm being made fun of here, that "I think I'm being > completely ignored here," rather than attribute any malicious or sadistic > intent to the writer. I can feel invisible, not usually mocked. But how > democratic is that? To be left completely alone, isolated, with a "template" > style of writing which can be interpreted any way I choose, with whatever > perceptual tools/capacities I choose? Is that "democracy?" As I ask this > question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely opaque, > "private" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version > of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just > read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't > refer to that particular work in my impulsive response. I refer instead to > work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out > of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an > undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone > "experiment" on my time, with no effort to offer anything in return for the > time I've invested. Anyway...this is a "feeling-level" response, rather than > a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to > be "democratic" and "egalitarian" can often leave a reader feeling "one-down," > "invisible," "isolated," and "unequal" (to the task). > > << I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and > circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: > "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem > offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps > that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:01:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag In-Reply-To: <7caf58a2.361ce7da@aol.com> from "Aviva Vogel" at Oct 8, 98 12:27:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aviva, I understand your skepticism about this claim to "democracy" and certainly if I writer's opacity is simply a matter of adopting a private code then I say to hell with him. But Silliman's work, just to be specific, is determinedly public: A moment not a movement, and the moment's past. It makes you look on those Mickey Mouse beach towels used as curtains with a renewed sense of wonder. Like housepainters without a truck carrying stepladders up the block. The way blue ink fades when the pen runs dry (What, 111). There's nothing here on the level of vocabulary or image that almost anyone speaking any American vernacular wouldn't understand. The difficulty of *What* is about sentence connections - but thematically that seems entirely appropriate, something about which I've had fair success convincing my students. Look at these sentences: there about ephemeral, decontextualized experience, Making sense of them is alot like making sense of the painters - what the hell are they doing there? where's their truck? This is about the logical connection we rely on being removed, at which point we become aware that we're always making narratives to fill in logical gaps - this can be simply a matter of quick accomodation, or, and this seems to me the more interesting possibility, a matter of stepping into those gaps & looking around, doing some extra-textual creative work of one kind or another. The point being, this isn't tabula rasa; Silliman isn't saying, here's a space where you can do whatever you want. He's encouraging dialogue - it's an antiphonal model, I think. Pedagogically, I encourage students to look for common ground first & then work toward the incoherent spaces. -m. According to Aviva Vogel: > > I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain > "experimental," or what I feel is heavily opaque, poetry. Actually, I would > say instead of "I think I'm being made fun of here, that "I think I'm being > completely ignored here," rather than attribute any malicious or sadistic > intent to the writer. I can feel invisible, not usually mocked. But how > democratic is that? To be left completely alone, isolated, with a "template" > style of writing which can be interpreted any way I choose, with whatever > perceptual tools/capacities I choose? Is that "democracy?" As I ask this > question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely opaque, > "private" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version > of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just > read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't > refer to that particular work in my impulsive response. I refer instead to > work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out > of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an > undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone > "experiment" on my time, with no effort to offer anything in return for the > time I've invested. Anyway...this is a "feeling-level" response, rather than > a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to > be "democratic" and "egalitarian" can often leave a reader feeling "one-down," > "invisible," "isolated," and "unequal" (to the task). > > << I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and > circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: > "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem > offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps > that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:04:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At 08/10/98 17:27:06, Aviva Vogel wrote: # I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain # "experimental," or what I feel is heavily opaque, poetry. Actually, I would # say instead of "I think I'm being made fun of here, that "I think I'm being # completely ignored here," rather than attribute any malicious or sadistic # intent to the writer. I can feel invisible, not usually mocked. But how # democratic is that? To be left completely alone, isolated, with a "template" # style of writing which can be interpreted any way I choose, with whatever # perceptual tools/capacities I choose? Is that "democracy?" As I ask this # question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely opaque, # "private" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version # of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just # read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't # refer to that particular work in my impulsive response. I refer instead to # work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out # of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an # undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone # "experiment" on my time, with no effort to offer anything in return for the # time I've invested. Anyway...this is a "feeling-level" response, rather than # a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to # be "democratic" and "egalitarian" can often leave a reader feeling "one-down," # "invisible," "isolated," and "unequal" (to the task). The first time I came across this response was in a reading group. I'd brought, as a favourite piece, the Wallace Stevens poem "Stars Over Talapoosa". Prior to this, none of this had occurred me. I accepted the poetry for what it was. No baggage about poetics...just savouring the poem for what it is, rather than actively seeking some pre-interred template of meaning. The response "is it a joke" came up there. I guess - and I'm not proselytising here - that re-learning responses can be difficult. Being presented with a new paradigm of reading poetry can be quite daunting. I have sympathy, but only in so far that this is a first-time response - "this is a joke" should, IMO, give way to "why is this joke" and a further deeper engagement with the poetry. Roger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:17:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p.c. jaeger" Subject: TORONTO READING In-Reply-To: <199810040402.AAA23186@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Deanna Ferguson & Andrew J. Patterson will read at the Red Head Gallery on Thursday, Oct. 15, 8 P.M. The gallery is at 96 Spadina, 8th floor, Toronto hope to see you there Peter Jaeger please note my new email address: pjaeger@interlog.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:25:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: the sense of being right Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" as briefly as possible -- a good place to pick up Adorno on these issues is in the essay on "Commitment" (1962), where his direct target is Sartre but Adorno's old debate with Benjamin is still very much in evidence. Adorno rejects both the "art for art's sake" argument commonly attached to early 20th century formalisms, recognizing how often it masks a politics that refuses to name itself as such. But he also rejects Benjamin's claims for the "committed" art of Brecht. Adorno argues that "It is not the office of art to spotlight alternatives, but to resist by its form alone the course of the world, which permanently puts a pistol to men's heads." Again, while I don't believe for a minute that Adorno's attempts to distinguish "autonomous" from"non-" (?) will hold up, it strikes me that this sounds a great deal like some arguments advanced among poets in recent decades in the U.S. -- and it further strikes me that many critical responses to those poets seem unaware of these earlier debates -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 20:27:47 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag In-Reply-To: <7caf58a2.361ce7da@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:27 PM 10/8/98 EDT, Aviva wrote: >of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just >read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't Isn't that one important point though, in much lang po, that reading is/ becomes central, to counteract the specialization or undistracted absorption much more mainstream poetry invites? Isn't the lang po use of disjunction related to the idea in Barthes' (& others) that whatever can be read as text. Then maybe some lang po has the effect of showing how and in what way(s). Fred Hertzberg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:14:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: the sense of being white In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:29:45 -0500 from On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:29:45 -0500 MAYHEW said: >Culture industry means what we would call "entertainment >industry"--popular music, hollywood, etc... I'm not sure Adorno was >against "the institution of art" if we mean traditional "high" culture, eg >"classical music," literature, paintings. In fact this rather elitist >conception of art is exactly what Adorno privileges. > >God forbid we should ask students of poetry to know about "philosphical >traditions in the West" or linguists interested in "pragmatics" to have >read William James. This isn't even about being interdisciplinary, it's >about knowing what we are talking about on the most basic level. The thing was, nobody was saying Mr. Adorno was aginst the art institution. Or the culture industry, however you define the borders. Burger's thesis is that the AVANT-GARDE - the specific avant-garde - Dada, Surrealist, others - of the 20s & 30s - was out to overturn the art/culture industry, because they saw for the 1st time how art itself is structured/mediated by the institution of art. That I think is the thesis. Now this is all very well & good & who looks right or wrong in SF NY and PDNK (Podunk) is a matter of vocabulary more than anything else unless gesture is taken under account, BUT the question of what kind of world we inhabit, what or who we are, & who decides how we live & where, & who owns what, & who does what, & what civilization is, and what freedom is, & what oppression & peace & deprivation are, & what is art & poetry, & what is life, & what is death, & what are words & poems & music, & what is culture & what is a loon, are just as important perhaps as what's on TV, and I have often thought that poetry has built-in para- or anti-art capabilities, but this may have been a mistaken assumption, especially if Brecht was nicer and then poetry magnets, and - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:41:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag In-Reply-To: <199810081701.NAA22782@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too understand Aviva's skepticism, and the difficulty of Roger Farr's students facing Silliman's work for the first time. But I think the problems are almost entirely about conditioning. I share Karen Kelley's sense of a similar blank lost-ness in the face of much so-called mainstream poetry, but I admit that's got a lot to do with my own conditioning during a twenty-year commitment to experimentalist poetics. but I don't think Ron Silliman's work is a blank slate about which anything can be said and all is equal. Neither do I think he is making fun of the reader -- in fact, I do think he is, in small and large ways, freeing the reader from being led by the nose, respecting the reader's ability to function in a context of shifting uncertainties (which is our context, isn't it?). DEMO begins: This is a test. What is a test? Well, pretty much everything. And how to put it together. But there are lots of clues here, like on the first page of the work, a little after this opening: Up against the woolite, desire for narrative condemns millions -- French bread hard as a rock. DEMO ends: The sun itself demands no explanation, but this cargo cult of nouns sings its own song, its own name, again and again. It just seems to me that one could spend a whole class, in an advanced or beginning poetry workshop, getting students pretty excited about talking about just these three "lines" of the poem and what they might mean, what they might invite of the reader, and on the issue of whether or not this is more DEMOcratic than a lot of poetry out there. And if you read the rest of the poem, you may ended up getting carried away by its wit, humor, and hard-hitting impact as well. (spoken as an unabashed supporter of the work, being its publisher in book form) Charles Alexander At 01:01 PM 10/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Aviva, I understand your skepticism about this claim to "democracy" and >certainly if I writer's opacity is simply a matter of adopting a private >code then I say to hell with him. But Silliman's work, just to be >specific, is determinedly public: > > A moment > not a movement, and the moment's past. > It makes you look on those Mickey Mouse > beach towels used as curtains > with a renewed sense of wonder. Like housepainters > without a truck carrying stepladders > up the block. The way blue ink fades > when the pen runs dry (What, 111). > >There's nothing here on the level of vocabulary or image that almost >anyone speaking any American vernacular wouldn't understand. The >difficulty of *What* is about sentence connections - but thematically that >seems entirely appropriate, something about which I've had fair success >convincing my students. Look at these sentences: there about ephemeral, >decontextualized experience, Making sense of them is alot like making >sense of the painters - what the hell are they doing there? where's their >truck? This is about the logical connection we rely on being removed, at >which point we become aware that we're always making narratives to fill in >logical gaps - this can be simply a matter of quick accomodation, or, and >this seems to me the more interesting possibility, a matter of stepping >into those gaps & looking around, doing some extra-textual creative work >of one kind or another. The point being, this isn't tabula rasa; Silliman >isn't saying, here's a space where you can do whatever you want. He's >encouraging dialogue - it's an antiphonal model, I think. Pedagogically, >I encourage students to look for common ground first & then work toward >the incoherent spaces. -m. > > According to Aviva Vogel: > >> I often have the same experience, or something similar, when reading certain >> "experimental," or what I feel is heavily opaque, poetry. Actually, I would >> say instead of "I think I'm being made fun of here, that "I think I'm being >> completely ignored here," rather than attribute any malicious or sadistic >> intent to the writer. I can feel invisible, not usually mocked. But how >> democratic is that? To be left completely alone, isolated, with a "template" >> style of writing which can be interpreted any way I choose, with whatever >> perceptual tools/capacities I choose? Is that "democracy?" As I ask this >> question, I realize that the isolation I sometimes feel with extremely opaque, >> "private" writing IS, in fact, a prominent quality of the capitalist version >> of democratic culture, as I experience it. So....why not, in that case, just >> read a stone? or a tarot card? I haven't read Silliman's DEMO, so I don't >> refer to that particular work in my impulsive response. I refer instead to >> work that leaves me with a sense that I, as reader, have either been left out >> of the equation, or left to my own devices, or used as if I were an >> undiscerning and gullible audience who was willing to watch someone >> "experiment" on my time, with no effort to offer anything in return for the >> time I've invested. Anyway...this is a "feeling-level" response, rather than >> a thoughtful one. I simply find it quite ironic that writing which claims to >> be "democratic" and "egalitarian" can often leave a reader feeling "one-down," >> "invisible," "isolated," and "unequal" (to the task). >> >> << I downloaded part of Ron Silliman's "D E M O" (with citation!) and >> circulated it among the class. Silence. More silence. Then the remark: >> "I think I'm being made fun of here." I tried to explain that the poem >> offered a more democratic model of writer/reader relations, and perhaps >> that explained the "funny feeling", but to no avail. We moved on . . . . >> >> > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: money for poets Comments: To: kkel736@BAYAREA.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit kkel736@BAYAREA.NET writes: >the proofreader habit doesn't quit after an >8 hour day. You didn't have to say that: your spelling speaks volumes. You also have a nice way with a hyphenated compound adjectival phrase. dwm "Sometimes a twangle of a thousand instruments seemed to hum around his ears, and he longed for a simple lay." - George Bowering. Burning Water. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Langpo & Lingprag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and I'll make this my last today so that I don't use too much of this resource (in my own defense, my average over a longer period is lower than others!) I seem to recall that "pragmatics" in linguistics has a particular meaning that is not quite the same as philosophical pragmatics -- as our correspondent is currently in a class on the subject, perhaps we might get a clear definition -- at any rate, it would not at all surprise me that people studying linguistic pragmatics would be confounded by a Silliman passage -- students, professors, or casual hangers on -- for much the same reason that Searle and others argue that we shouldn't START with poetry if we want to understand how language actually operates (the argument he tried to have with Derrida and others in the 70s-80s) -- The pragmatism of James is only tangentially relevant to pragmatics in this sense IF I REMEMBER correctly from my own undergrad. courses in linguistics some twenty very odd years ago -- and my own sense, contra Searle and others, is that Silliman might indeed be a fine starting point, even in pragmatics ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:50:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: The 4th decade of experiments Comments: To: markducharme@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit markducharme@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I think the poetry of Bernadette >Mayer or Jackson Mac Low is extremely AUTHENTIC; beside it, quick a lot >of "nonexperimental" verse is shown up for the "personal voice" gimmick >it is (or can be)... Agreed, but with nothing against BM or JM, it's not unusual to notice in the broader field of artistic endeavour (I'm thinking of torch singers right now) that the less innovative an artist may be the more authentic and moving she often can be. Down and dirty is a term that springs to mind. dwm "Disappointments have no effect on him - if only one could learn that from him!" - Kafka, The Castle. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:26:27 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: the sense of being white Content-Type: text/plain >On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:29:45 -0500 MAYHEW said: >>Culture industry means what we would call "entertainment >>industry"--popular music, hollywood, etc... I'm not sure Adorno was >>against "the institution of art" if we mean traditional "high" culture, eg >>"classical music," literature, paintings. In fact this rather elitist >>conception of art is exactly what Adorno privileges. I'm certain Adorno considered "high culutre" as a part of the culture industry, along with "popular music, hollywood, etc." I mean, it's all in how this stuff gets used. Not that ART cannot exist in its own right, but that it is implicated in, and by, the society in which, and by which, it is created. What's important, I think, is not to think of, say, the Black Mountain poem, the language poem, as something superior, or in any way separate from, the culture industry. I mean, in an era of regurgitaion and transmutation, anything is possible. What's counterrevolutionary today is on a tee shirt tomorrow. That's just the way our society deals with transgressive ideas: it makes them safe for 'consumption,' intellectual or otherwise. But don't despair! Philosophy, linguistics, geography, politics, anthropology &etc &etc are all tools of the poet today. These diverse fields provide a richer view by which to weigh ideas of poetic impulse. But poetry that is overly conscious of a single element is often flat, void of the deeper substance (sorry this is so alchemical) that open worlds through poetry. I mean, that's what this is about to me, the opening and closing of worlds through language. It's not about the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of our 'thoughts' or 'feelings' toward the 'poem,' but about our willingness to engage our own values with as much of our 'selves' open as can be allowed. Isn't that why we all think we 'know' something of the 'poem,' of our 'selves?' Regardless, my point is, we think in pieces, the unity and completion of the whole being somewhat removed from the varied impulses and regions of our senses. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:50:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: textuality on a t-shirt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Life is brief _____________ It says here __as the author of the above (which I do have on a t-shirt), I want to register my agreement with Dale Smith's point re complex ideas ending up on t-shirts. Just that (obviously) I don't see anything wrong with this. Those who would do missionary work ((=BF the feeling of being white ?)) need to adjust their language to their audience. The same bow can shoot arrows of different penetrative powers. My version of Rilke's fall-like poem posted days since was no joke or not only. In California, where nearly everyone comes from someplace else, of necessity an LCD argot is spoken. Any other kind of english laid upon poets of other places and other eras can quickly strike our ears as suspiciously manipulative. But Shakespeare's Sonnets still sound great. Go figure. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:09:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: textuality on a t-shirt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My favorite LCD motto is from Jenny Holzer: "Protect me from what I want." Sold a few year ago on a baseball cap at the Mary Boone gallery. I didn't buy one then & still regret it to this day. david bromige wrote: > Life is brief > > _____________ > > It says here > > __as the author of the above (which I do have on a t-shirt), I want to > register my agreement with Dale Smith's point re complex ideas ending up on > t-shirts. Just that (obviously) I don't see anything wrong with this. Those > who would do missionary work ((¿ the feeling of being white ?)) need to > adjust their language to their audience. The same bow can shoot arrows of > different penetrative powers. My version of Rilke's fall-like poem posted > days since was no joke or not only. In California, where nearly everyone > comes from someplace else, of necessity an LCD argot is spoken. Any other > kind of english laid upon poets of other places and other eras can quickly > strike our ears as suspiciously manipulative. But Shakespeare's Sonnets > still sound great. Go figure. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:32:54 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: missionary positions Content-Type: text/plain > > Life is brief > > _____________ > > It says here > "FUCKED" on my back. on a tee shirt, that is ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:03:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Younger Poets Issue 10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is that the Devil we know or the Devil we don't know? Looks like a great issue -- can you tell us which piece by Jose Lezama Lima has been translated? And, just so I'll know as I read it, did the interview in this issue involve actually speaking with the interview subject? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:33:40 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Younger Poets Issue 10 Content-Type: text/plain I included 5 pieces of Lezam Lima's from "The Fragments Drawn By Charm." (Roberto Tejada was kind enough to let me use his translations. I'm sure you've seen Mandorla, Tejada's journal. If not, let me know.) And, yeah, the Kyger interview involves live, living persons. I interviewed her in May of 97. I mean, Joanne's the real thing. I couldn't have written anything this generous, subtle and insightful. I've been working with her nearly a year on the edits, trying to narrow and focus. As for the Devil, well, I dragged him off some 16th century make-shift barge last seen floating in the gulf of mexico. The Karankawas called him "Badthing." I don't know how that got into this issue. All the best, Dale >Is that the Devil we know or the Devil we don't know? Looks like a great >issue -- can you tell us which piece by Jose Lezama Lima has been >translated? And, just so I'll know as I read it, did the interview in this >issue involve actually speaking with the interview subject? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:03:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: Query: Robert Duncan on VOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Towards an Open Universe" was broadcast in the VOA Forum Series "Contemporary American Poetry" on 23 October 1964, and then published in the VOA paperback (for overseas distribution only) in 1964 _Contemporary American Poetry_, edited by Howard Nemerov, under the imprint of "Voice of America Forum Lectures." There were 19 lectures by such as Marianne Moore, Jack Gilbert, and John Berryman as well as Nemerov hisself. For Bibliographic freaks, the essay occupies pp. 169-183; there is a photo of Duncan and a brief blurb on 168. This book is not listed in Bertholf's Bibliography of RD. Poets were invited to "speak to" four questions: 1. Do you see your work as having essentially changed in style or character since you began? 2. Is there, or has there been, was there ever, a "revolution" in poetry, or is all that a matter of a few sleazy technical tricks? 3. Does the question whether the world has changed during this century preoccupy you in poetry? Does your work appear to you to envision the appearance of a new human nature, for better or worse, or does it view the many and obvious changes as exxentially technological? 4. What is the proper function of criticism? Is there a speciaes of it you admire (are able to get along with)? Although according to Bertholf's Bibliography of Duncan the 30-minute tape is available "only at the offices of the United States Information Agency" (presumably on request, in any country where such an office is maintained), a note at the beginning of the VOA book says "Permission is herewith granted to rebroadcast and reprint it outside the continental limits of the United States." [Any takers, among all you folk outside the US of A?] The US trade edition of this book, _Poets on Poetry_ (NY Basic Books, 1966) necessarily lacks that note. At the back of the book is an address to send enquiries to: Forum Editor, Voice of America, USIS, Washington 25, D.C., United States of America. I have no idea how good THAT is anymore. PAQ ---------------------------------------- At 11:50 AM 10/7/98 +0200, Robert Archambeau wrote: >Okay, here's an obscure question for you. > >In was quite surprised to find out that Robert Duncan's essay "Towards >and Open Universe" was read by Duncan over the air, broadcast by the >Voice of America. Does anyone know whether there is a recording of this >broadcast? If so, where can I find it? > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 Voice : 604 255 8274 Fax: 255 8204 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. (news from the free world) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Next for Titanic: a touring theme park By Erich Boehm LONDON (Variety) - The biggest film of all time is about to get bigger with the launch of ``Titanic: The Official Movie Tour,'' a theme-park style movable event based on James Cameron's blockbuster. Twentieth Century Fox has set up the extravaganza, to debut at London's Wembley Exhibition Hall on Dec. 15 and proceed city by city around the world for five years, to allow people to ``participate'' in ``Titanic.'' The public will be able to visit parts of the movie's set, interact with the picture through multimedia exhibits, learn how the f/x were done or even enjoy a meal in the ship's dining hall. Merchandise will be peddled in an area resembling an Edwardian high street. The show is billed as the first of its kind. Fox is partnered in the project with the L.A.-based company Special Entertainment Events (SEE). Also on board are Cameron's Lightstorm Entertainment, British promoter Harvey Goldsmith and the German convention organizer Messe Duesseldorf. Meanwhile, not to be outdone, Paramount is debuting its ``Star Trek World Tour'' -- also created in conjunction with SEE -- in December in Dusseldorf, Germany. Details on that show, however, remain sketchy. Though no budgets were given, both events are clearly massive investments. In the case of the ``Titanic'' show, it will spend one month in London, with admission at about $20, before moving on to Amsterdam, Paris, Dusseldorf and Milan. In total, 20 cities are scheduled. ``Titanic'' producer Jon Landau, on hand for the press launch of the show in London, told Daily Variety that he expected more and more films would be re-marketed this way in the future. ``It will make people feel like they're part of making the movie,'' Landau said. ``People can complete their emotional journey.'' Landau added that ``Titanic,'' with a global box office of more than $1.8 billion, was ``still on sturdy legs'' and that, besides the video release, its potential could be pushed in even more ways, such as alternative edits, perhaps even a version that emphasizes historical accuracy over romance. When Landau and Goldsmith were queried as to the wisdom of launching such an enterprise given present global economic conditions, both expressed the view that entertainment traditionally fares reasonably well during a recession. Reuters/Variety ^REUTERS@ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:33:44 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Guilty of being white MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember when we used to handwrite words on white t-shirts. I remember when we used to handwrite I'm with stupid on white t-shirts I remember when we used to handwrite the anarchy symbol on white t-shirts before manufacturing I "know" nothing of an unquantifyable "thing" I 'know' nothing of an unquantifyable 'thing' I know nothing of an unquantifyable thing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:31:20 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: the sense of being white MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dale Smith wrote: > What's counterrevolutionary today is on a tee shirt tomorrow. > Absolutely. Derrida can be picked up by advertising campaigns, and William Burrough's can sell shoes. But the thing which I took from Adorno. . .(and its the only thing which has glommed to my memory) is the image of Odysseus in "The Dialectic of Enlightenment" co-written with Horkheimer. I come across this passage quoted a lot, for a variety of different purposes, or more to the point: I quote it a lot, for a variety of different purposes, some or all of which may not have anything to do with the authors original intents. "[Odysseus] knows only two possible ways to escape. One of them he prescribes for his men. He plugs their ears with wax, and they must row with all their strength. Whoever would survive must not hear the temptation of that which is unrepeatable, and he is able to survive only by being unable to hear it. Society has always made provision for that. The laborers must be fresh and concentrate as they look ahead, and must ignore whatever lies to one side. . . . The other possibility Oddysseus, the seigneur who allows the others to labor for themselves, reserves to himself. He listens, but while bound impotentently to the mast; the greater the temptation the more he has his bonds tightened." -- H & A Reading this into poetry, it would seem to suggest: Hey, do whatever the f*** you want. Be experimental. Be crude. Reader's digest may get uptight, but a university will hire you; the NEA will give you grants; well dressed men and women will ask why you have to say the word "f***" so often, but they'll still attend your readings. You just have to make sure that "aesthetic" is separated from "political;" interesting "ideas" are separated from "actions," and that "theory" is separated from "practice." Be philosophical, strange, even--God help us--intelligent, but tether yourself to the mast. Of course. . . the trajectories of the great pinball game can't really be contained or described adequately by this or any other theory (or poem). Some renegade reactionaries may lynch you, even if you style yourself as the most mild-mannered academic. Even so. . .T&H gives another way of looking at why it is that "establishment" ("They," by which of course I mean "Them") still cuddles up to poets and other heretics from time to time. My 2 cents. --Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: f.y.i. (news from the free world) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two ways these guys missed the boat, so to speak. 1. The show should include a full-size submersible replica of the original ship, so that customers could vicariously experience the thrill if drowning. 2. There should be franchised therapists on hand, to help those who have difficulty "complet[ing] their emotional journey." At 05:31 PM 10/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >Next for Titanic: a touring theme park > > > By Erich Boehm > LONDON (Variety) - The biggest film of all time is about to >get bigger with the launch of ``Titanic: The Official Movie >Tour,'' a theme-park style movable event based on James >Cameron's blockbuster. > Twentieth Century Fox has set up the extravaganza, to debut >at London's Wembley Exhibition Hall on Dec. 15 and proceed city >by city around the world for five years, to allow people to >``participate'' in ``Titanic.'' > The public will be able to visit parts of the movie's set, >interact with the picture through multimedia exhibits, learn how >the f/x were done or even enjoy a meal in the ship's dining >hall. Merchandise will be peddled in an area resembling an >Edwardian high street. > The show is billed as the first of its kind. Fox is >partnered in the project with the L.A.-based company Special >Entertainment Events (SEE). Also on board are Cameron's >Lightstorm Entertainment, British promoter Harvey Goldsmith and >the German convention organizer Messe Duesseldorf. > Meanwhile, not to be outdone, Paramount is debuting its >``Star Trek World Tour'' -- also created in conjunction with SEE >-- in December in Dusseldorf, Germany. Details on that show, >however, remain sketchy. > Though no budgets were given, both events are clearly >massive investments. In the case of the ``Titanic'' show, it >will spend one month in London, with admission at about $20, >before moving on to Amsterdam, Paris, Dusseldorf and Milan. In >total, 20 cities are scheduled. > ``Titanic'' producer Jon Landau, on hand for the press >launch of the show in London, told Daily Variety that he >expected more and more films would be re-marketed this way in >the future. ``It will make people feel like they're part of >making the movie,'' Landau said. ``People can complete their >emotional journey.'' > Landau added that ``Titanic,'' with a global box office of >more than $1.8 billion, was ``still on sturdy legs'' and that, >besides the video release, its potential could be pushed in even >more ways, such as alternative edits, perhaps even a version >that emphasizes historical accuracy over romance. > When Landau and Goldsmith were queried as to the wisdom of >launching such an enterprise given present global economic >conditions, both expressed the view that entertainment >traditionally fares reasonably well during a recession. > Reuters/Variety > ^REUTERS@ > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:55:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: the sense of being white MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dale Smith wrote: > That's just the > way our society deals with transgressive ideas: it makes them safe for > 'consumption,' intellectual or otherwise. But don't despair! Philosophy, > linguistics, geography, politics, anthropology &etc &etc are all tools > of the poet today. These diverse fields provide a richer view by which > to weigh ideas of poetic impulse. But poetry that is overly conscious of > a single element is often flat, void of the deeper substance (sorry this > is so alchemical) that open worlds through poetry. I mean, that's what > this is about to me, the opening and closing of worlds through language. > It's not about the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of our 'thoughts' or > 'feelings' toward the 'poem,' but about our willingness to engage our > own values with as much of our 'selves' open as can be allowed. Isn't > that why we all think we 'know' something of the 'poem,' of our > 'selves?' Regardless, my point is, we think in pieces, the unity and > completion of the whole being somewhat removed from the varied impulses > and regions of our senses. This seems to be a worthwhile direction to pursue. It moves us beyond the simple experimental/non-experimental dis cussions that go on and on and on top of the stove when I last saw it. Do you have an example of a poem or form that "hooks" the reader in and then engages in opening or closing worlds? I am aware that I tend to be somewhat (or very!) opaque without really intending to be. tom bell -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:49:29 -0600 Reply-To: Duane Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duane Davis Subject: Re: the sense of being white MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adorno was capable of great arrogance in his pronouncements on art... tho the sense of provocation is often so great that the reader can not help but feel that he is over hearing an argument between Adorno and his demons: "In actuality, much more effort is required to listen adequately to a piece by Beethoven, whose themes the average man in the street (!) might whistle to himself , than to a piece of the most advanced music..." "There is a temptation to regard the most educated listeners as the worst: those who promptly react to Schoenberg with 'I do not understand'--an utterance whose modesty masks anger as expertise." "The all-powerful culture industry appropriates the enlightening principle and, in its relationship with human beings, defaces it for the benefit of prevailing obscurity. Art vehemently opposes this tendency; it offers an ever-sharper contrast to such false clarity. The configurations of that deposed obscurity are held up in opposition to the prevailing neon-light style of the times. Art is able to aid enlightenment only by relating the clarity of the world consciously to its own darkness." He is, sometimes, close to the hysteria he describes so well: "What radical music perceives is the untransfigured suffering of man... The seismographic registration of traumatic shock becomes, at the same time, the technical structural law of music. It forbids continuity and development. Musical language is polarized according to its extremes: towards gestures of shock resembling bodily convulsions on the one hand, and on the other towards a crystalline standstill of a human being whom anxiety causes to freeze in her tracks." "Through hostility towards art, the work of art approaches knowledge... Its cognitive character becomes radical in that moment in which art is no longer content with the role of perception. This is the threshold of modern art, which grasps its own contradictions with such depth that they can no longer be arbitrated. Modern art infuses the concept of form with such tension that the aesthetic product is forced to confess its insolvency before it. Modern art permits the contradiction to remain, revealing the original foundation of its categories of judgment--that is, of form. It discards the dignity of the judge and descends to the level of the plaintiff, the only position for which reality provides a conciliation." The relentlessly dialectical nature of his thought seldom allows the reader to draw a "conclusion" -- we draw and draw and draw and seem no closer to understanding. This is a great deal of the fun of reading Adorno: that he wanted us to understand so clearly that any time we believe we understand, we have failed to be rigorous enough in our thinking... Duane Davis All quotes from Adorno's Philosophy of Modern Music -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Bell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 08, 1998 7:00 PM Subject: Re: the sense of being white >Dale Smith wrote: >> > That's just the >> way our society deals with transgressive ideas: it makes them safe for >> 'consumption,' intellectual or otherwise. But don't despair! Philosophy, >> linguistics, geography, politics, anthropology &etc &etc are all tools >> of the poet today. These diverse fields provide a richer view by which >> to weigh ideas of poetic impulse. But poetry that is overly conscious of >> a single element is often flat, void of the deeper substance (sorry this >> is so alchemical) that open worlds through poetry. I mean, that's what >> this is about to me, the opening and closing of worlds through language. >> It's not about the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of our 'thoughts' or >> 'feelings' toward the 'poem,' but about our willingness to engage our >> own values with as much of our 'selves' open as can be allowed. Isn't >> that why we all think we 'know' something of the 'poem,' of our >> 'selves?' Regardless, my point is, we think in pieces, the unity and >> completion of the whole being somewhat removed from the varied impulses >> and regions of our senses. > >This seems to be a worthwhile direction to pursue. It moves us beyond >the >simple experimental/non-experimental dis cussions that go on and on and >on >top of the stove when I last saw it. Do you have an example of a poem >or >form that "hooks" the reader in and then engages in opening or closing >worlds? I am aware that I tend to be somewhat (or very!) opaque without >really intending to be. > >tom bell > > >-- ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm >http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm >http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm >http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm >http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:20:53 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: Re: Query: Robert Duncan on VOA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Towards an Open Universe" was broadcast in the VOA Forum Series > "Contemporary American Poetry" on 23 October 1964, and then published in the > VOA paperback (for overseas distribution only) in 1964 _Contemporary > American Poetry_, edited by Howard Nemerov, under the imprint of "Voice of > America Forum Lectures." This book is not listed in Bertholf's > Bibliography of RD. I've seen the paperback -- in fact, I ran across it in the departmental common room here in Sweden, complete with a big red stamp reading "United States Information Agency" -- I love the irony of finding Duncan and Berryman and Corso published worldwde by such an incongruous agency. Although according to Bertholf's Bibliography of Duncan the 30-minute tape is available "only at the offices of the United States Information Agency" (presumably on request, in any country where such an office is maintained), a note at the beginning of the VOA book says "Permission is herewith granted to rebroadcast and reprint it outside the continental limits of the United States." [Any takers, among all you folk outside the US of A?] Hello! Yow! Yes, there's the note. When I stop in at my friendly neighborhood USIA office up in Stockholm to ask about the recording, I'll make inquiries about how valid that claim is in 1998. There's no expiration date mentioned, but it seems a bit too good to be true. Will let you know. Bob ----------- Robert Archambeau Engelska Institutionen Lund University, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:24:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: down the bottle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gary Paul Sullivan Date: 08 October 1998 17:16 Subject: Re: down the bottle |the oft-quoted Spicer poem in question ends | |... no |One listens to poetry. | |I take the line break to be a hesitation (reconsideration), ending with |the positive "One listens to poetry" so that you get | |No, one listens to poetry. Yes *and surely "more than one" - in listening to poetry as in writing it we do it with more than one version of ourselves, we become more whole, whereas when, as I am about to, we go to the bakers, we show our going-to-the-baker persona and so on This line was taken by Gilbert Adair as the title for the SVP colloquium he organised in London in 91 - so the line got quite a lot of thought and those two different but complementary readings, along with the noted hesitation, are what I retain L ____________________________________________________________ Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:52:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Pragmatics Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger Farr's students have my sympathy. Isn't pragmatics in linguistics as different from pragmatics in philosophy as objectivism in poetry is from objectivism in political philosophy (or whatever it is you would consider Ms. Rand's theoretical genre to have been)? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:53:44 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: down the bottle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At 09/10/98 11:24:04, "Lawrence Upton." wrote: # From: Gary Paul Sullivan # Date: 08 October 1998 17:16 # Subject: Re: down the bottle # # # |the oft-quoted Spicer poem in question ends # | # |... no # |One listens to poetry. # | # |I take the line break to be a hesitation (reconsideration), ending with # |the positive "One listens to poetry" so that you get # | # |No, one listens to poetry. If you emphasize the "no" and the "poetry", you get a completely different sense, as in a derogatory one. Just a thought. I notice that Majorie Perloff prescribes hesitations to denote line-endings in her essay about vers libre; why not a mixture of emphasis and hesitation? What's the difference between a hesitation on the line-break, and a emphasis on the last word before the line-break? How does a pause to denote line-endings differentiate from a pause denoted by a comma in the middle of a line? # # # Yes *and surely "more than one" - in listening to poetry as in writing it we # do it with more than one version of ourselves, we become more whole, whereas # when, as I am about to, we go to the bakers, we show our going-to-the-baker # persona and so on # # This line was taken by Gilbert Adair as the title for the SVP colloquium he # organised in London in 91 - so the line got quite a lot of thought and those # two different but complementary readings, along with the noted hesitation, # are what I retain Roger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: <002a01bdf37b$5b062be0$a6abfea9@oemcomputer> from "Ron Silliman" at Oct 9, 98 06:52:53 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was under the impression that liguistic pragmatics and philsophical pragmatism were related along the "how to do things with words" axis - i.e. by their belief in a rhetorical theory of form. -m. According to Ron Silliman: > > Roger Farr's students have my sympathy. > > Isn't pragmatics in linguistics as different from pragmatics in philosophy > as objectivism in poetry is from objectivism in political philosophy (or > whatever it is you would consider Ms. Rand's theoretical genre to have > been)? > > Ron > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Paul Sullivan Subject: listening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The poem, in full, reads: This ocean, humiliating in its disguises Tougher than anything. No one listens to poetry. The ocean Does not mean to be listened to. A drop Or crash of water. It means Nothing. It Is bread and butter Pepper and salt. The death That young men hope for. Aimlessly It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No One listens to poetry. The central image here being "This ocean," liquid, thing later claimed "not mean[t] to be listened to." Which is not to say not listened to. I'm curious why "This ocean" is the first image we get in a book called "Language" & in a section/poem called "Thing Language." Is "this ocean" language, or is language seen as somehow like an ocean? & therefore fluid? &, if fluid, not rigid in its limits (what we might read as "meanings")? I think this poem itself "Aimlessly/ ... pounds the shore." Meaning, pounds itself against something less liquid than itself. Fizzling out against it. If we emphasize the last word in the penultimate line, NO it may be a repeat of the line previously given w/out punctuation or linebreak. But, why? I think there's an intentional ambiguity here. We emphasize first words in a line, too: No ONE listens to poetry. He's broken the line here I think to suggest a reading alternative to the anthemic quip most readers come away with. I think he's after more than anthem, especially in a poem that claims "not mean[t] to be listened to." An anthem means to be listened to. And in a very unambiguous way. I don't think this poem is a cop out. I think the reduction of this poem to an anthem might be. But at least is a shallow or cursory reading of it. I feel like addressing Anselm's "I'd say there's a lot of poets who like to see others see them noticing that looking right can be a trick & thereby trying to look wrong & by extension right." Or at least asking him what he means. Who are these poets for whom being looked at is primary? And how was the conclusion that this is "the case" reached? Are those questioning cultural (including aesthetic) "givens" preening? Merely? These aren't rhetorical questions. Thanks. Gary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:52:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: <199810091157.HAA72500@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, and doesn't poetics potentially bring philosophy and linguistics together, concerned as it is both with the immediate pragmatic use of words and the larger issues involved? Just as semantics in the narrow way defined in linguistics and semantics as concern in philosophy of language are separate--beloning to separate academic disciplines--but we should be intellectuals, which means not isolating problems in a narrow way. The linguistics professor should know enough at least to explain the differences + potential areas of convergent interest. On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Michael Magee wrote: > I was under the impression that liguistic pragmatics and philsophical > pragmatism were related along the "how to do things with words" axis - > i.e. by their belief in a rhetorical theory of form. -m. > > According to Ron > Silliman: > > > Roger Farr's students have my sympathy. > > > > Isn't pragmatics in linguistics as different from pragmatics in philosophy > > as objectivism in poetry is from objectivism in political philosophy (or > > whatever it is you would consider Ms. Rand's theoretical genre to have > > been)? > > > > Ron > > > Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:14:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to Jonathan Mayhew for making a start toward the definition of pragmatics as understood by linguists. But could someone please clarify this for us? Maybe the original poster, or someone else w/ a linguistics background? Or could someone call down the ghost of Jack Spicer to impart his professional knowledge on this topic. I'm wondering, because I suspect that if it is like most subfields in linguistics, its practitioners are probably is more comfortable working with conventional, conversational sentences, in which the context is determined w/ relative ease. Consequently, while poetic discourse would seem to open up new research areas, it would also probably create difficulties beyond the capacities of the current paradigms. Though I could be way wrong about this. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Pragmatics MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII David, I am most familiar with the area of linguistic pragmatics called deixis, which could be crudely defined as that class of words and phrases that orients discourse in terms of a speaker and/or audience. I tend to think of it as also indicating some kind of spatial or temporal relationship among them. Deixis is often described as a "pointing" mechanism, as when we use deictic adjectives such as "this" or "that," or "here" or "there" or "now" when used as adverbs or adjectives. Also phrases like "beside" or "next to" or "in front of" are deictic in that their user assumes a place in terms of which the utterance they occur makes relative sense. But there's more to lingusitic pragmatics than deixis. Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:54:59 +0000 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many of the discussions on the list that involve Adorno mention as asides his 'revolting' position vis a vis jazz. As an enthusiast of the Adorno of Negative Dialectics, Against Epistemology and Dialectic of Enlightenment which he wrote with Horkheimer, I too have found Adorno's position vis a vis jazz, critically suspect but not incomprehensible. Certainly, there is some truth to Adorno's critique of Stravinsky's "Le Sacre du printemps" in that the composer wants the music to sound like music from the "beginning of time", an obvious conceit. This kind of hegemony occurs again in Stravinsky's works that incorporate what Stravinsky interprets as jazz elements and as with Le Sacre one feels a kind of bourgeois appropriation on the part of the composer. The result is watered down primitivism even as the effect was at one time shocking and novel and now, for the non-primitive like myself, intensely pleasurable. On the other hand Schoenberg's twelve-tone technique is a revolt against a programmatic romanticism accreting in harmonic excess. Whatever the result (and I listen with enjoyment and often passion to all of the above music) Schoenberg, Berg and Webern, in Adorno's mind, revolted against the same sensibility that Stravinsky was exploiting albeit in anew way. But what jazz was Adorno attacking? I haven't done much of the legwork but it appears that Adorno's position toward jazz was cemented well before the advent of bebop when jazz was perhaps the preeminent form of popular music and was represented by many adulterated and highly commercialized forms bowdlerized by the recording industry which Adorno despised. This alone would have set a purist like Adorno off. Adorno was seeking a 'high art' musical form that would be embraced by the masses. Of course, Benjamin was right when he told Adorno that would never happen. But jazz itself with the advent of bebop began an aesthetically and politically self-induced process of marginalization and isolation that I as a young man saw as dove-tailing with twelve tone, serial and aleatoric music. I even wrote a long poem comparing the artistic and political revolutionary aspects of these forms of jazz and classical music called 'House Party Startin' named after a tune by the jazz pianist-composer, Herbie Nichols. One then wonders if Adorno in his intellectual pique was able to discern jazz from the consumer culture that used it when there was a dollar to be made and abused it when it could no longer fill the big ballrooms? Even his main bugaboo, a steady beat based on syncopation doesn't nearly always apply. Even if he didn't wait for Monk or Bud Powell, Bill Evans or Cecil Taylor he could have found copious exceptions in the music of Art Tatum and even the Count Basie. But even Lazarsfeld generous criticisms could not convince Adorno to bring a more 'empirical' and less polemical element to his constructs especially when they predicted seriality in every home. This ironically gives Adorno's work its great value for in that learned obstinance comes the clear exposition of extremes in a culture of consumption designed to advertise some fictional norm. Scoenberg's appeal to Adorno was as a revolutionary. Too bad he couldn't see it in Charlie Parker, Archie Shepp, Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis. (By the time of the latter fellows Adorno had returned to Europe but over there jazz was getting more respect than here and that should have told Teddy something.) So to answer my own question, Adorno would have probably produced a tortured intellectual construct that would allow a stubborn consistency to prevail in his critique even while he considered the social and aesthetic dovetailing that has occurred between jazz and classical music exemplified in say Anthony Braxton and Iannis Xenakis. I can remember reading Cage's Silence in Rudd Fleming's modern poetry class at the University of Maryland 30 years ago and then going home and popping on Coltrane's Ascension and thinking these cats are onto something that somehow expresses a marvelous continuity.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: David Zauhar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Pragmatics Comments: To: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU In-Reply-To: <01J2RNBUR1IEHVT39S@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU wrote: > David, > > I am most familiar with the area of linguistic pragmatics called deixis, > which could be crudely defined as that class of words and phrases that > orients discourse in terms of a speaker and/or audience. I tend to think > of it as also indicating some kind of spatial or temporal relationship > among them. Deixis is often described as a "pointing" mechanism, as > when we use deictic adjectives such as "this" or "that," or "here" or > "there" or "now" when used as adverbs or adjectives. Also phrases like > "beside" or "next to" or "in front of" are deictic in that their user > assumes a place in terms of which the utterance they occur makes relative > sense. > > But there's more to lingusitic pragmatics than deixis. > > Gary R. > Thanks. That's helpful. I remember several years back reading a guy's MA thesis on deixis. I knew that "deictic" words were words w/ shifting referents like "this" or "that," but man, I was completely unprepared for the complexity that the pros have to get into. I wonder if anyone's ever written on deixis and ashbery -- seems to be central to his work... Just rambling. Seriously, thinks for the clarification: this helps. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:13:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: <01J2RNBUR1IEHVT39S@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thought I'd throw the following into the brew. This is included in a short sketch of the work of Charles Morris, author of _Foundations of the Theory of Signs_ (1938), put together by Eugene Halton. The URL is found below. "Pragmatics, a basic field of linguistics today, originally had its roots in Morris's idea of a division of signs concerned with "the relations of signs to their interpreters" or users. Practically, this distinction seemed to legitimate the place of social context for language study, which was a crucial feature of both John Dewey and Ludwig Wittgenstein's philosophies at that time, as well as of the work of Sapir, Malinowski, and others. Yet Morris's behaviorism unsemeiotically assumed that "users" of signs are not also themselves signs. Similarly, he assumed the logical empiricist "myth of the given" in viewing objects of signs--designata or denotata--as not themselves signs, but as "things" to be denoted by semantic reference. Hence what is called "pragmatics" is not only theoretically antipragmatic, but also illogical for the same reasons that Peirce showed in his critiques of immediate, dyadic knowledge. The lack of theoretical soundness in Morris's concept of "pragmatics," however, has not to date had an impact on its normalization in linguistics and related fields which employ the term." http://www.nd.edu/~ehalton/Morrisbio.htm John Latta On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 Gary Roberts wrote: > David, > > I am most familiar with the area of linguistic pragmatics called deixis, > which could be crudely defined as that class of words and phrases that > orients discourse in terms of a speaker and/or audience. I tend to think > of it as also indicating some kind of spatial or temporal relationship > among them. Deixis is often described as a "pointing" mechanism, as > when we use deictic adjectives such as "this" or "that," or "here" or > "there" or "now" when used as adverbs or adjectives. Also phrases like > "beside" or "next to" or "in front of" are deictic in that their user > assumes a place in terms of which the utterance they occur makes relative > sense. > > But there's more to lingusitic pragmatics than deixis. > > Gary R. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:24:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: down the bottle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/9/98 6:57:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rday@HARLEQUIN.CO.UK writes: << What's the difference between a hesitation on the line-break, and a emphasis on the last word before the line-break? >> "Hesitation on the linebreak" is simply a subcategory of "emphasis on the last word before the linebreak." There all all kinds of emphases (with all kinds of agendas) that are possible. Hesitation is one of them. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:31:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: from "John Latta" at Oct 9, 98 02:13:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, now we know why that class was acting so "theoretically antipragmatic" - thanks John. If the class was assuming with Morris that "users of signs are not also themselves signs" then that would go along way to explaining their discomfort w/ Ron's DEMO. -m. According to John Latta: > > Practically, this distinction seemed > to legitimate the place of social context for language study, > which was a crucial feature of both John Dewey and > Ludwig Wittgenstein's philosophies at that time, as well as > of the work of Sapir, Malinowski, and others. Yet Morris's > behaviorism unsemeiotically assumed that "users" of signs > are not also themselves signs. Similarly, he assumed the > logical empiricist "myth of the given" in viewing objects of > signs--designata or denotata--as not themselves signs, but > as "things" to be denoted by semantic reference. Hence > what is called "pragmatics" is not only theoretically > antipragmatic, but also illogical for the same reasons that > Peirce showed in his critiques of immediate, dyadic > knowledge. The lack of theoretical soundness in Morris's > concept of "pragmatics," however, has not to date had an > impact on its normalization in linguistics and related fields > which employ the term." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:25:43 -0700 Reply-To: griffinbaker@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: listening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Sullivan, tell me, if you know, what you make of how Spicer's lines revise Stevens': The water never formed to mind or voice, Like a body wholly body, fluttering Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry, That was not ours, although we understood, Inhuman, of the veritable ocean. If Spicer's linebreak at "No/One listens to poetry" allows you, ambiguously, to understand the last line as a direction, or perhaps radio signal, to listen, then the "No" also becomes "Know": No (linebreak)-- Know (this). But even then, the next line doesn't emphasize "One" (unless you mean entirely as a matter of print, in which case someone's not listening); break the line wherever you like, the stresses always fall on "no" and "listens." Mark Baker ____________________________________________________________ > > The poem, in full, reads: > > This ocean, humiliating in its disguises > Tougher than anything. > No one listens to poetry. The ocean > Does not mean to be listened to. A drop > Or crash of water. It means > Nothing. > It > Is bread and butter > Pepper and salt. The death > That young men hope for. Aimlessly > It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No > One listens to poetry. > > The central image here being "This ocean," liquid, thing > later claimed "not mean[t] to be listened to." Which > is not to say not listened to. I'm curious why > "This ocean" is the first image we get in a book called > "Language" & in a section/poem called "Thing Language." > Is "this ocean" language, or is language seen as somehow like > an ocean? & therefore fluid? &, if fluid, not rigid > in its limits (what we might read as "meanings")? > > I think this poem itself "Aimlessly/ ... pounds the shore." > Meaning, pounds itself against something less liquid > than itself. Fizzling out against it. If we emphasize the > last word in the penultimate line, NO > it may be a repeat of the line previously given w/out > punctuation or linebreak. But, why? I think there's an > intentional ambiguity here. We emphasize first words in > a line, too: No > ONE listens to poetry. He's broken the line here I think > to suggest a reading alternative to the anthemic quip > most readers come away with. I think he's after more than > anthem, especially in a poem that claims "not mean[t] to be > listened to." An anthem means to be listened to. And in > a very unambiguous way. > > I don't think this poem is a cop out. I think the reduction > of this poem to an anthem might be. But at least is a > shallow or cursory reading of it. > > I feel like addressing Anselm's "I'd say there's a lot of > poets who like to see others see them noticing that > looking right can be a trick & thereby trying to look wrong > & by extension right." Or at least asking him what he > means. Who are these poets for whom being looked at is > primary? And how was the conclusion that this is "the case" > reached? Are those questioning cultural (including > aesthetic) "givens" preening? Merely? > > These aren't rhetorical questions. Thanks. > > Gary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:44:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Comments: To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com In-Reply-To: <361DDD73.2A09@ix.netcom.com> from "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" at Oct 9, 98 09:54:59 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adorno wrote his first article on jazz in 1936 and another came out in 1967, both inexcusably shitty. Yes, he's reacting to what he saw as the commercialized "pseudo-individualism" of the swing era - but, for chrissake, the guy is a cultural critic, a historicist, and you would think he'd be more careful. Part of the problem, as far as I'm concerned, is that Adorno's paragdigms don't fit particularly well on top of cultural space like, say, the Tulsa, Oklahoma of the late twenties and thirties - one of the important sites where Kansas City-style swing is born. This is a radically improvisational culture: check out Count Basie's autobiography *Good Morning Blues* or Ralph Ellison's essay "Going to the Territory" to get a sense of just how off-base Adorno's thinking is in this case. -m. According to R. Gancie/C.Parcelli: > > Many of the discussions on the list that involve Adorno mention as > asides his 'revolting' position vis a vis jazz. As an enthusiast of the > Adorno of Negative Dialectics, Against Epistemology and Dialectic of > Enlightenment which he wrote with Horkheimer, I too have found Adorno's > position vis a vis jazz, critically suspect but not incomprehensible. > > Certainly, there is some truth to Adorno's critique of Stravinsky's "Le > Sacre du printemps" in that the composer wants the music to sound like > music from the "beginning of time", an obvious conceit. This kind of > hegemony occurs again in Stravinsky's works that incorporate what > Stravinsky interprets as jazz elements and as with Le Sacre one feels a > kind of bourgeois appropriation on the part of the composer. The result > is watered down primitivism even as the effect was at one time shocking > and novel and now, for the non-primitive like myself, intensely > pleasurable. > > On the other hand Schoenberg's twelve-tone technique is a revolt against > a programmatic romanticism accreting in harmonic excess. Whatever the > result (and I listen with enjoyment and often passion to all of the > above music) Schoenberg, Berg and Webern, in Adorno's mind, revolted > against the same sensibility that Stravinsky was exploiting albeit in > anew way. > > But what jazz was Adorno attacking? I haven't done much of the legwork > but it appears that Adorno's position toward jazz was cemented well > before the advent of bebop when jazz was perhaps the preeminent form of > popular music and was represented by many adulterated and highly > commercialized forms bowdlerized by the recording industry which Adorno > despised. This alone would have set a purist like Adorno off. Adorno was > seeking a 'high art' musical form that would be embraced by the masses. > Of course, Benjamin was right when he told Adorno that would never > happen. > > But jazz itself with the advent of bebop began an aesthetically and > politically self-induced process of marginalization and isolation that I > as a young man saw as dove-tailing with twelve tone, serial and > aleatoric music. I even wrote a long poem comparing the artistic and > political revolutionary aspects of these forms of jazz and classical > music called 'House Party Startin' named after a tune by the jazz > pianist-composer, Herbie Nichols. > > One then wonders if Adorno in his intellectual pique was able to discern > jazz from the consumer culture that used it when there was a dollar to > be made and abused it when it could no longer fill the big ballrooms? > Even his main bugaboo, a steady beat based on syncopation doesn't nearly > always apply. Even if he didn't wait for Monk or Bud Powell, Bill Evans > or Cecil Taylor he could have found copious exceptions in the music of > Art Tatum and even the Count Basie. > > But even Lazarsfeld generous criticisms could not convince Adorno to > bring a more 'empirical' and less polemical element to his constructs > especially when they predicted seriality in every home. This ironically > gives Adorno's work its great value for in that learned obstinance comes > the clear exposition of extremes in a culture of consumption designed to > advertise some fictional norm. Scoenberg's appeal to Adorno was as a > revolutionary. Too bad he couldn't see it in Charlie Parker, Archie > Shepp, Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis. (By the time of the latter > fellows Adorno had returned to Europe but over there jazz was getting > more respect than here and that should have told Teddy something.) > > So to answer my own question, Adorno would have probably produced a > tortured intellectual construct that would allow a stubborn consistency > to prevail in his critique even while he considered the social and > aesthetic dovetailing that has occurred between jazz and classical music > exemplified in say Anthony Braxton and Iannis Xenakis. I can remember > reading Cage's Silence in Rudd Fleming's modern poetry class at the > University of Maryland 30 years ago and then going home and popping on > Coltrane's Ascension and thinking these cats are onto something that > somehow expresses a marvelous continuity.---Carlo Parcelli > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:44:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adorno's contrasting of Stravinsky and the serialists was pretty standard stuff back then and into the sixties. Stravinsky was the hero of the mainstream (especially in the US and UK) and the bete noir of the rest of us, in no small part because he positioned himself to fill those roles, altho much of his late music is in fact serial (and quite wonderful). It's nice that all those wars are over so that we can listen to both with pleasure. Schoenberg, for one, was very interested in jazz. I would guess that Adorno's reaction was partially conditioned by his general annoyance at living in exile. A piece of gossip: Louise Varese told me that Charlie Parker showed up at the door unannounced one day in the last couple of years of his life and asked to see Edgard. They had never met. The two of them disappeared into Edgard's studio for the next six hours. Louise had no idea what transpired there. Oh to be a fly on that wall! At 09:54 AM 10/9/98 +0000, you wrote: >Many of the discussions on the list that involve Adorno mention as >asides his 'revolting' position vis a vis jazz. As an enthusiast of the >Adorno of Negative Dialectics, Against Epistemology and Dialectic of >Enlightenment which he wrote with Horkheimer, I too have found Adorno's >position vis a vis jazz, critically suspect but not incomprehensible. > >Certainly, there is some truth to Adorno's critique of Stravinsky's "Le >Sacre du printemps" in that the composer wants the music to sound like >music from the "beginning of time", an obvious conceit. This kind of >hegemony occurs again in Stravinsky's works that incorporate what >Stravinsky interprets as jazz elements and as with Le Sacre one feels a >kind of bourgeois appropriation on the part of the composer. The result >is watered down primitivism even as the effect was at one time shocking >and novel and now, for the non-primitive like myself, intensely >pleasurable. > >On the other hand Schoenberg's twelve-tone technique is a revolt against >a programmatic romanticism accreting in harmonic excess. Whatever the >result (and I listen with enjoyment and often passion to all of the >above music) Schoenberg, Berg and Webern, in Adorno's mind, revolted >against the same sensibility that Stravinsky was exploiting albeit in >anew way. > >But what jazz was Adorno attacking? I haven't done much of the legwork >but it appears that Adorno's position toward jazz was cemented well >before the advent of bebop when jazz was perhaps the preeminent form of >popular music and was represented by many adulterated and highly >commercialized forms bowdlerized by the recording industry which Adorno >despised. This alone would have set a purist like Adorno off. Adorno was >seeking a 'high art' musical form that would be embraced by the masses. >Of course, Benjamin was right when he told Adorno that would never >happen. > >But jazz itself with the advent of bebop began an aesthetically and >politically self-induced process of marginalization and isolation that I >as a young man saw as dove-tailing with twelve tone, serial and >aleatoric music. I even wrote a long poem comparing the artistic and >political revolutionary aspects of these forms of jazz and classical >music called 'House Party Startin' named after a tune by the jazz >pianist-composer, Herbie Nichols. > >One then wonders if Adorno in his intellectual pique was able to discern >jazz from the consumer culture that used it when there was a dollar to >be made and abused it when it could no longer fill the big ballrooms? >Even his main bugaboo, a steady beat based on syncopation doesn't nearly >always apply. Even if he didn't wait for Monk or Bud Powell, Bill Evans >or Cecil Taylor he could have found copious exceptions in the music of >Art Tatum and even the Count Basie. > >But even Lazarsfeld generous criticisms could not convince Adorno to >bring a more 'empirical' and less polemical element to his constructs >especially when they predicted seriality in every home. This ironically >gives Adorno's work its great value for in that learned obstinance comes >the clear exposition of extremes in a culture of consumption designed to >advertise some fictional norm. Scoenberg's appeal to Adorno was as a >revolutionary. Too bad he couldn't see it in Charlie Parker, Archie >Shepp, Ornette Coleman and Miles Davis. (By the time of the latter >fellows Adorno had returned to Europe but over there jazz was getting >more respect than here and that should have told Teddy something.) > >So to answer my own question, Adorno would have probably produced a >tortured intellectual construct that would allow a stubborn consistency >to prevail in his critique even while he considered the social and >aesthetic dovetailing that has occurred between jazz and classical music >exemplified in say Anthony Braxton and Iannis Xenakis. I can remember >reading Cage's Silence in Rudd Fleming's modern poetry class at the >University of Maryland 30 years ago and then going home and popping on >Coltrane's Ascension and thinking these cats are onto something that >somehow expresses a marvelous continuity.---Carlo Parcelli > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:45:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In this case emphasis and stress are two different things. There's metrics and there's grammatical placement which foregrounds. Even metrically there's far more stress and quantity to the one at the beginning of a grammatical structure and the one in no one."No. One listens to poetry." At 11:25 AM 10/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >Gary Sullivan, tell me, if you know, >what you make of how Spicer's lines revise >Stevens': > >The water never formed to mind or voice, >Like a body wholly body, fluttering >Its empty sleeves; and yet its mimic motion >Made constant cry, caused constantly a cry, >That was not ours, although we understood, >Inhuman, of the veritable ocean. > > > >If Spicer's linebreak at "No/One listens to poetry" allows you, >ambiguously, to understand the last line as a direction, or >perhaps radio signal, to listen, then the "No" also becomes >"Know": No (linebreak)-- Know (this). But even then, the next >line doesn't emphasize "One" (unless you mean entirely as a >matter of print, in which case someone's not listening); break >the line wherever you like, the stresses always fall on "no" >and "listens." > > >Mark Baker > > >____________________________________________________________ > >> >> The poem, in full, reads: >> >> This ocean, humiliating in its disguises >> Tougher than anything. >> No one listens to poetry. The ocean >> Does not mean to be listened to. A drop >> Or crash of water. It means >> Nothing. >> It >> Is bread and butter >> Pepper and salt. The death >> That young men hope for. Aimlessly >> It pounds the shore. White and aimless signals. No >> One listens to poetry. >> >> The central image here being "This ocean," liquid, thing >> later claimed "not mean[t] to be listened to." Which >> is not to say not listened to. I'm curious why >> "This ocean" is the first image we get in a book called >> "Language" & in a section/poem called "Thing Language." >> Is "this ocean" language, or is language seen as somehow like >> an ocean? & therefore fluid? &, if fluid, not rigid >> in its limits (what we might read as "meanings")? >> >> I think this poem itself "Aimlessly/ ... pounds the shore." >> Meaning, pounds itself against something less liquid >> than itself. Fizzling out against it. If we emphasize the >> last word in the penultimate line, NO >> it may be a repeat of the line previously given w/out >> punctuation or linebreak. But, why? I think there's an >> intentional ambiguity here. We emphasize first words in >> a line, too: No >> ONE listens to poetry. He's broken the line here I think >> to suggest a reading alternative to the anthemic quip >> most readers come away with. I think he's after more than >> anthem, especially in a poem that claims "not mean[t] to be >> listened to." An anthem means to be listened to. And in >> a very unambiguous way. >> >> I don't think this poem is a cop out. I think the reduction >> of this poem to an anthem might be. But at least is a >> shallow or cursory reading of it. >> >> I feel like addressing Anselm's "I'd say there's a lot of >> poets who like to see others see them noticing that >> looking right can be a trick & thereby trying to look wrong >> & by extension right." Or at least asking him what he >> means. Who are these poets for whom being looked at is >> primary? And how was the conclusion that this is "the case" >> reached? Are those questioning cultural (including >> aesthetic) "givens" preening? Merely? >> >> These aren't rhetorical questions. Thanks. >> >> Gary > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:52:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: from "David Zauhar" at Oct 9, 98 11:14:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank-you to all for the informative discussion of linguistic pragmatics and experimental writing. Just to clarify, I am a student in the class, and the response to "D E M O" ("I think I'm being made fun of here") was the prof.'s. At the end of the class, my sense of things was that I was possibly suspected of trying to "sabotage" the course (which was definitely *not* my intention) by introducing that poem. Generally, it seems that people doing pragmatics favor non-literary texts, especially transcriptions of conversations, court procedings, etc. Some interesting work has been done with schizophrenic speech and writing (see "Crazy Talk", by Rochester & Martin), through analysis of types of cohesive ties in such language. By no means do I want to position myself as any kind of authority on -- or practioner of -- "linguistic pragmatics", though I may be able to offer some background to this approach. Pragmatics as I understand it is not related to Rand or Dewey, etc.. The broadest possible definition would be that it concerns itself with understanding texts as "intentional human actions" (hmmmm . . .). Reference is treated as an act, and some key-words are deixis, "mutual knowledge", presupposition, implicature, coherence, etc. Apparently, linguistic pragmatists (if that's what they are called) see themselves as developing an approach to language which is in opposition to formal linguistics (syntax & grammar). Formal linguistics is criticized for relying to heavily on "constructed examples" and "decontextualized sentences" (The farmer killed the duckling), and also for searching for grammar-based models of meaning -- such models are seen as attempts to neutralize dissimilar contexts. I am currently grappling with Deleuze and Guattari's account of pragmatics in "A Thousand Plateaus", where pragmatics is equated with "schizo-analysis" (146). This equation, of course, is seen as heretical by most pragmatists, though it is very interesting to someone engaged with experimental writing. I can suggest these books for people interested in the subject. Not really "recommended reading" . . . just course books: Levinson, "Pragmatics". Cambridge UP, 1983. Brown and Yule, "Discourse Analysis". Cambridge UP, 1983. Halliday & Hasan, "Cohesion in English". Longman, 1976. Cheers, Roger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: <199810091844.OAA45144@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A good book on Adorno and music is one with the unlikely title _The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play_. The author's name escapes me at the moment, but the book is a reading of Frank Zappa's music using Adorno, and conversely, a critique of Adorno using Zappa's work. It's interesting because both Adorno and Zappa are, to say the least, problematic at times, but it's a good attempt at using theory to illuminate popculture, and to draw on more innovative aspects of popculture to interrogate theory. At one point, though, the author criticizes (rightfully) Adorno's limitations in dealing w/ popular culture by likening the reading of Adorno writing on sunbathing (which TA does somewhere) to an experience of being dowsed with laughing gas. It also occurs to me that Curtis White has a short story called "Critical Theory" which largely revolves around Adorno and Horkheimer driving to California from New York shortly after emigrating here in the 40s. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago ... not being born is the only tragedy that we can imagine but need never fear --Alden Nowlan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:01:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: <199810091852.LAA10653@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Roger Farr" at Oct 9, 98 11:52:00 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Pragmatics as I understand it is not related to Rand or Dewey, etc.. Having just read the 5 or 6 posts that came in while I was writing my last message, I think I should reconsider the role played by Dewey in Lingprag! Roger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:01:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: <199810091844.OAA45144@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've read the later of Adorno's jazz essays, and fairly recently. He does mention bebop, but only to say it makes no difference. I can sense an irritation against European jazz connosieurs and certain claims for jazz that would have seemed pretentious or inflated to him. I don't buy arguments of the type "he was only thinking of the popular, tin-pan alley kind of music." This is clearly not the case, and even if it were, it wouldn't excuse him. He throws out the Basie with the bathwater no matter how you look at it. Jonathan Mayhew ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:07:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Kathleen Fraser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, Could someone please backchannel an email address for Kathleen Fraser? Thanks, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:49:17 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: listening In-Reply-To: <361E5527.347B@bc.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Mark, Okay. Well, when I say out loud: NO [linebreak] one LISTENS to poetry. stressing where you say the stresses fall, the meaning I get, as heard is NO [pause] one LISTENS to poetry. I mean, as much as the other meanings resident/radiant there. Because there's a line-break there, and I can't ignore it. Anyway, I read it this way (among other ways) because, reading Spicer, there's usually a lot going on in Spicer's poems: he does seem to really play with meanings in the way that he breaks lines, in the words he chooses (many of which tend to be puns). And, in this case, it wasn't even something I had to think about. I just saw it there and went, "Oh ... well, how come everyone always says Spicer only says the opposite of this?" or whatever. I think it would interesting to think what it might mean, how it might inform the rest of the poem (& the rest of the poems in _Language_) if we DO take that last line as "One listens to poetry." No? Gary > If Spicer's linebreak at "No/One listens to poetry" allows you, > ambiguously, to understand the last line as a direction, or > perhaps radio signal, to listen, then the "No" also becomes > "Know": No (linebreak)-- Know (this). But even then, the next > line doesn't emphasize "One" (unless you mean entirely as a > matter of print, in which case someone's not listening); break > the line wherever you like, the stresses always fall on "no" > and "listens." > > > Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Pragmatics In-Reply-To: <199810091901.MAA16143@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Roger Farr" at Oct 9, 98 12:01:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Roger Farr: > > > > > Pragmatics as I understand it is not related to Rand or Dewey, etc.. > > Having just read the 5 or 6 posts that came in while I was writing my last > message, I think I should reconsider the role played by Dewey in Lingprag! > > Roger > Yes, reconsider - if "The broadest possible definition would be that it concerns itself with understanding texts as "intentional human actions" (hmmmm . . .). Reference is treated as an act, and some key-words are deixis, "mutual knowledge", presupposition, implicature, coherence, etc." then there's an obvious debt here to Dewey, Wittgenstein, Burke and others basically involved with philosophical pragmatism, and "language as symbolic action." -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just to clarify, the title is: Frank Zappa : the negative dialectics of poodle play / by Ben Webster. London : Quartet, 1994. ...Just in case, given the wackiness of the sound of the thing, someone begins to suspect that David is pulling our cyberleg. He ain't.. On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, David Zauhar wrote: > A good book on Adorno and music is one with the unlikely title _The > Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play_. The author's name escapes me at the > moment, but the book is a reading of Frank Zappa's music using Adorno, and > conversely, a critique of Adorno using Zappa's work. It's interesting > because both Adorno and Zappa are, to say the least, problematic at times, > but it's a good attempt at using theory to illuminate popculture, and to > draw on more innovative aspects of popculture to interrogate theory. > > At one point, though, the author criticizes (rightfully) Adorno's > limitations in dealing w/ popular culture by likening the reading of > Adorno writing on sunbathing (which TA does somewhere) to an experience of > being dowsed with laughing gas. > > It also occurs to me that Curtis White has a short story called "Critical > Theory" which largely revolves around Adorno and Horkheimer driving to > California from New York shortly after emigrating here in the 40s. > > David Zauhar > University of Illinois at Chicago > > ... not being born is > the only tragedy > that we can imagine > but need never fear > > --Alden Nowlan > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:34:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: that jazz thread got inta my mind! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Errr, the Poodle Play author is Ben Watson NOT Ben Webster, as i've just posted! Sorry.......... --mark p. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:56:45 -0700 Reply-To: griffinbaker@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: listening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes. I'd already agreed the linebreak can do what you say with the "no," but not that it puts emphasis on ONE LISTENS. If the poem stresses listening, then a listener--not merely a reader-- would hear the natural stress in "one LISTens": it's the listening, not the one who listens, that matters. It's a language thing. Mark Baker _________________________________________________ Gary Sullivan wrote: > > Hi, Mark, > > Okay. Well, when I say out loud: > > NO [linebreak] one LISTENS to poetry. > > stressing where you say the stresses fall, the meaning I get, as heard is > > NO [pause] one LISTENS to poetry. > > I mean, as much as the other meanings resident/radiant there. Because > there's a line-break there, and I can't ignore it. > > Anyway, I read it this way (among other ways) because, reading Spicer, > there's usually a lot going on in Spicer's poems: he does seem to really > play with meanings in the way that he breaks lines, in the words he chooses > (many of which tend to be puns). And, in this case, it wasn't even something > I had to think about. I just saw it there and went, "Oh ... well, how come > everyone always says Spicer only says the opposite of this?" or whatever. > > I think it would interesting to think what it might mean, how it might > inform the rest of the poem (& the rest of the poems in _Language_) if we DO > take that last line as "One listens to poetry." > > No? > > Gary > > > If Spicer's linebreak at "No/One listens to poetry" allows you, > > ambiguously, to understand the last line as a direction, or > > perhaps radio signal, to listen, then the "No" also becomes > > "Know": No (linebreak)-- Know (this). But even then, the next > > line doesn't emphasize "One" (unless you mean entirely as a > > matter of print, in which case someone's not listening); break > > the line wherever you like, the stresses always fall on "no" > > and "listens." > > > > > > Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:36:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Pinsky, in his new little book _The Sounds of Poetry_, argues that readers shouldn't pause at the ends of lines. They should follow the syntax, and "pause only as the grammar might pause." According to his theory, printed lines are a "notation" that should assist in making apprehensible the "vocal rhythms" already inherent in a work. Interestingly, his example is William Carlos Williams's "To a Poor Old Woman," which contains the well-known lines: They taste good to her They taste good to her. They taste good to her You can see it... Pinsky seems to say that the different rhythms and emphases of the "They taste good to her" variations manifest a "vocal alertness" that parallels the "sensory alertness" of the poem's speaker. The rhythmic differences are already "there" in the sentence; Williams's enjambment just makes us more likely to notice them (it heightens our perception of sound). Spicer's ironic splitting of "no one" seems similar (since it is a variation on an earlier line): it makes you "listen" to poetry. To speak of "hesitation" when syntax and line are in tension seems overly melodramatic. Why aren't all instances of enjambment "hesitations"? I think I agree with Pinsky that enjambment helps to show where the accents are distributed in a given sentence. It doesn't signify a dramatic pause. Andrew Rathmann Chicago -------------- Chicago Review 5801 S. Kenwood Ave. Chicago IL 60637-1794 ph/fax 773.702.0887 e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: griffinbaker@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Then Pinsky's apparently recycling his own writing. He made the same argument, with the same example, in his review of Williams' _Collected_. But "To a Poor Old Woman" is the easy textbook case of what free verse supposedly does with enjambment. What can enjambment bring to "vocal alertness" about a line that's not repeated? In most verse, enjambment doesn't show anything about "accents," especially if you don't pause at linebreaks. Maybe I'll look at Pinsky's new book to see if he enjambs his own argument differently in this printing. _______________________________________________________________________ > > Robert Pinsky, in his new little book _The Sounds of Poetry_, argues that > readers shouldn't pause at the ends of lines. They should follow the > syntax, and "pause only as the grammar might pause." According to his > theory, printed lines are a "notation" that should assist in making > apprehensible the "vocal rhythms" already inherent in a work. > Interestingly, his example is William Carlos Williams's "To a Poor Old > Woman," which contains the well-known lines: > > They taste good to her > They taste good > to her. They taste > good to her > > You can see it... > > Pinsky seems to say that the different rhythms and emphases of the "They > taste good to her" variations manifest a "vocal alertness" that parallels > the "sensory alertness" of the poem's speaker. The rhythmic differences > are already "there" in the sentence; Williams's enjambment just makes us > more likely to notice them (it heightens our perception of sound). > > Spicer's ironic splitting of "no one" seems similar (since it is a > variation on an earlier line): it makes you "listen" to poetry. > > To speak of "hesitation" when syntax and line are in tension seems overly > melodramatic. Why aren't all instances of enjambment "hesitations"? I > think I agree with Pinsky that enjambment helps to show where the accents > are distributed in a given sentence. It doesn't signify a dramatic pause. > > Andrew Rathmann > Chicago > > -------------- > Chicago Review > 5801 S. Kenwood Ave. > Chicago IL 60637-1794 > ph/fax 773.702.0887 > e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:05:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: line breaks down the bottle glug glug MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetry Project wrote: > Speaking of noticing looking right can be a trick, I'd > say there's a lot of poets who like to see others see them noticing that > looking right can be a trick & thereby trying to look wrong & by > extension right. That's some of the current NYC post-innovative > avant-gardener biz at the moment. I always look closer to right avant-gardening than apres-gardening.This is really a lie disguised as a clever lie, since I have no garden. Besides, I keep trying to be left and still ending up wrong. "Robert Pinsky, in his new little book _The Sounds of Poetry_, argues that readers shouldn't pause at the ends of lines. They should follow the syntax, and "pause only as the grammar might pause." According to his theory, printed lines are a "notation" that should assist in making apprehensible the "vocal rhythms" already inherent in a work." This is something that's always sort of bugged me. When I was a kid, I was taught to read through line breaks. Don't pause at the end of the line, it makes it sing-songy. Then I became a "poet" and was taught to pause at line breaks, to break the line where pausing. My general rule has become, if it's old and rhymed, don't pause, if it's newer, do pause, unless that doesn't seem to work, etc. In others words, it seems that one has to read the poem first in order to figure out how to go back and read it. Also, the line-break pause always seems to me to have more of the back of the throat in it than a strictly punctuational pause. I remember a workshop where one participant spent the whole semester commenting on everyone's line breaks. Re. Pinsky, though, isn't the line break itself _part_ of the grammar of poetry? Pause, Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:36:13 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------732912574D4B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------732912574D4B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Rathmann writes that Robert Pinsky, in his new little book _The Sounds of Poetry_, argues that readers shouldn't pause at the ends of lines. They should follow the syntax, and "pause only as the grammar might pause." According to his theory, printed lines are a "notation" that should assist in making apprehensible the "vocal rhythms" already inherent in a work. Interestingly, his example is William Carlos Williams's "To a Poor Old Woman," which contains the well-known lines: They taste good to her They taste good to her. They taste good to her You can see it... I'm not sure I follow Andrew or Pinsky. To me the reader should stop where the words stop, partly to let what has just been read seep in deeper, partly to read the preceding line as a completed whole of some sort. In the Williams poem the line-breaks leave us thinking first about her, then about good, then about taste, then back to her--or, really, "good to her" as a solid block of meaning now. I don't see why any "vocal rhythms" in the text would be made more apprehensible by line breaks that one doesn't pause at. Of course, I have a vested interest here: my whole definition of poetry depends on what I call "flow-breaks" such as standard line-breaks; they are what for me distinguish poetry from prose. --Bob G. --Bob G. --------------732912574D4B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sig.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sig.txt" Bob Grumman BobGrumman@Nut-N-But.Net http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1492 Comprepoetica, the Poetry-Data-Collection Site --------------732912574D4B-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:39:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:36:32 -0500 from enjambment is boring. the whole idea that a break in the line might MEAN something un- interests it- self. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:26:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Line endings have different functions in different poems and poets. part of the fun of a new poem or poet is figuring out the music. Any blanket statement seems foolish to me. And the example Pinsky uses is idiotic--no question here about the pause at the linebreaks. Somebody should send the guy a telegram about breath groups. Incidentally, check out his poem in the new NYRB--how not to write a poem. Good piece by Geertz, tho. At 03:36 PM 10/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >Robert Pinsky, in his new little book _The Sounds of Poetry_, argues that >readers shouldn't pause at the ends of lines. They should follow the >syntax, and "pause only as the grammar might pause." According to his >theory, printed lines are a "notation" that should assist in making >apprehensible the "vocal rhythms" already inherent in a work. >Interestingly, his example is William Carlos Williams's "To a Poor Old >Woman," which contains the well-known lines: > >They taste good to her >They taste good >to her. They taste >good to her > >You can see it... > >Pinsky seems to say that the different rhythms and emphases of the "They >taste good to her" variations manifest a "vocal alertness" that parallels >the "sensory alertness" of the poem's speaker. The rhythmic differences >are already "there" in the sentence; Williams's enjambment just makes us >more likely to notice them (it heightens our perception of sound). > >Spicer's ironic splitting of "no one" seems similar (since it is a >variation on an earlier line): it makes you "listen" to poetry. > >To speak of "hesitation" when syntax and line are in tension seems overly >melodramatic. Why aren't all instances of enjambment "hesitations"? I >think I agree with Pinsky that enjambment helps to show where the accents >are distributed in a given sentence. It doesn't signify a dramatic pause. > >Andrew Rathmann >Chicago > >-------------- >Chicago Review >5801 S. Kenwood Ave. >Chicago IL 60637-1794 >ph/fax 773.702.0887 >e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:43:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: Kathleen Fraser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathleen is at 105653.1070@Compuserve.com Peter At 12:07 PM 10/9/98 -0700, you wrote: > Hi Folks, > Could someone please backchannel an email address for Kathleen Fraser? > Thanks, > Pete > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 Voice : 604 255 8274 Fax: 255 8204 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:45:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Oh my gosh, me too! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OOOOPS! I just joined the oops club. Sorry, everyone - er, P At 12:07 PM 10/9/98 -0700, you wrote: > Hi Folks, > Could someone please backchannel an email address for Kathleen Fraser? > Thanks, > Pete > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 Voice : 604 255 8274 Fax: 255 8204 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:03:32 -0600 Reply-To: Duane Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duane Davis Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I have no ear for jazz I find Adorno quite useful for tweaking the noses of the high minded: "Yet none of this alters the fact that jazz has in its essence remained static, nor does it explain the resulting enigma that millions of people seem never to tire of its monotonous attraction." "The range of the permissible in jazz is as narrowly circumscribed as in any particular cut of clothes." "Anyone who allows the growing respectability of mass culture to seduce him into equating a popular song with modern art because of a few false notes squeaked by a clarinet; anyone who mistakes a triad studded with 'dirty notes' for atonality, has already capitulated to barbarism." "In the process of integrating the asocial, jazz converges with the equally standardized schemas of the detective novel and its offshoots, which regularly distort or unmask the world so that asociality and crime become the everyday norm, but which at the same time charm away the seductive and ominous challenge through the inevitable triumph of order." Adorno, "Perennial Fashion--Jazz" in PRISMS Is this the final word on jazz? Of course not. Have Adorno's words in fact had any appreciable influence on jazz? Again, of course not. Is he right about some aspects of jazz and jazz listeners? Oh yes, quite right. I've owned a record store for twenty years and have listened to a fair amount of jazz and jazz talk: some of it stimulating, some of it fatuous. The danger, and the beauty as well, of this essay is that you can substitute for "jazz" most any identifiable style of music, monkey with a few of the definitions and pronouncements, and come up with something suitable to piss just about anyone off. Duane Davis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 8 Oct 1998 to 9 Oct 1998 (#1998-88) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" the name here is Ben WATSON, a former student of J.R, Prynne (whom he credits in the book and quotes from) as a poet, he writes and performs under the name OUT TO LUNCH.. Negative Dialetics of Poodle Play is published in US as well joel lewis >--SFWKCCGBLGEAMUHBSRaVFRUESKBZCM >Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:30:35 -0400 >From: Mark Prejsnar >Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Just to clarify, the title is: > >Frank Zappa : the negative dialectics of poodle play / by Ben Webster. > >London : Quartet, 1994. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:18:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: listening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: Spicer - "Meaning," it seems to me, as definitive, is precisely what the poem moves up against, resists, crashes into, and recedes from (the opposite of meaning as fluid). The ocean figures rather traditionally in Spicer's work - as an image of formlessness or chaos (I'm thinking in particular of Spicer's use of the image in the earlier books, say, _Admontions_ or _A Book of Music_). Or, in "Lament for the Makers:" No call upon anyone but the timber drifting in the waves Those blocks, those blobs of wood. The sounds there, offshore, faint and short They click or sound together - drift timber spending the night there floating just above this beach. Thump or sound together. The sound of driftwood the sound that is not really a sound at all. At all All of them Cast In the ghost of moonlight upon them On shore. This strikes me as Spicer's image of the poem's elements (wood/would/word in sound), but also of the serial method (i.e. one might read timber blocks as each a poem knocking up against others). It's synathesthetic, and I would hesitate to say that Spicer had meant simply that one must "listen to the sound it makes." (Pound), or that he was claiming something of an oral/aural nature. It is, after all, an _image_ (the elements of which recur ceaselessly in Spicer's poetry, as if to insist on the drift). As for the poem at hand, line breaks, etc: how about "no ONE listens to poetry" (i.e. that there must be more than one)? Or what about the status of "The ocean does not _mean_," or, "It means [break] Nothing." (i.e. that NOTHING might be meaningful). These all, I think, are legitimate readings, and offer above all a hesitation with respect to literality (is it possible that a pun be read literally?) On line breaks, in any case, from _Admonitions_: When you break a line nothing Becomes better. There is no new (unless you are humming Old Uncle Tom's Cabin) there is no new Measure. You breathe the same and Rimbaud Would never even look at you. Break Your poem Like you would cut a grapefruit Make It go to sleep for you And each line (There is no Pacific Ocean) And make each line Cut itself. Like seaweed thrown Against a pier. I don't know what this means with respect to the present discussion (it's clearly a critique of Olson's Projectivism, Olson being always the literalist _and_ oralist, and, of course, the very "public" figure who insisted that he be listened to). But the poem as adrft in no ocean at all? I don't know... Let me know, Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 04:23:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: Line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I think Aviva Vogel has the right thing to say about line breaks: it's not just a matter of hesitation or of emphasis on the last word before the line- break. There are all kinds of emphases. I've studied this fairly closely with linguistic machinery reading out voice traces, though I concentrated for ease of analysis mostly on poetry with traditional metrics. For example, if you take this line break from Henry Vaughan: When shall that cry 'The bridegroom's coming' fill the sky? Shall it in the evening run When our words and works are done Or will thy all surprising light Break at midnight. There is no hesitation and not much difference in emphasis between "run" and "when" and there is no break in sound at all between those two words (at least in my own performance of them). Yet a definite sense of line break is given. How? Well, only partly by the rhyme scheme and syntax, I think (note, the rhyme has not yet come but may be anticipated). What happens is that the voicing (buzzing of the larynx) is continuous between "run" and "when" because of the nasalisation and the fact that the lips can form the "w" without interrupting the nasal tones. What causes the sensation of line break in this case is the *timing* of that lip movement: that is, the hesitation, if you like, is created within the sounding of the line by using different parts of the vocal apparatus. The lips move to form the "wh" but the "wh" formation is not a precise moment either: something conceptual also takes place, siting the moment of break as if mathematically within the change of sound from nose to lips. The traces show what the ear hears: the sounding of the line is virtually continuous from "Shall" to "words" and the actual pauses come between "words" and "and", between "works" and "are" and between "are" and "done". This is because the voicing in the larynx is broken at those times by silence imposed by shifts in the vocal apparatus and/or by the interruption of voiceless consonants into the voicing (which can give a sensation of semi-pause exploitable, also, for line-breaks). The importance of voice in creating the pacing of poetry (not to mention its several other effects) is little understood, in my opinion. For example, the impressive pausing in "Break at midnight" is much a creature of the interaction between voiceless consonants "k" especially, and the the continuous, heavy voicing possible in "midnight", plus pause-creating changes in sound position in the mouth. There are many ways of creating line breaks and the break itself is almost infinitely variable in its quasi-duration". You can, for example, create a line break with voiceless consonants but this can become a complex question of duration. In Creeley's famous poem drive, he sd, for christ's sake, look out where yr going the line break from "for" to "christ" is formed by the staccato onset of "christ" in the back of the throat, though the "r" can be drawled to create a tension about when the line is ending. Had Creeley made the break between "christ's" and "sake" it would then become a question of how long to continue the continuous hissing until a sense of line closure was achieved -- that would be an infinitesimal decision relative to any one single reading of the poem, but there would be no pause in sounding of the voiceless fricatives -- the break could be indicated by a sense that the hissing had gone on "long enough". This kind of thing (the immersion of rule in practice, always) is, to take up that other thread, what pragmatics means to me in terms of linguistics or prosody: all ideas come down to their situational usage, and you can't create a positivistic or symbolic logic that will finally work. The appearance of pragmatics as a buzz word was easy to anticipate from philosophical trends of the 1980s, but I personally think poets already have this approach to their craft: it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing, and so on. Isn't Deleuze's radicalisation of possibility not so much schizoid as radically incoherent? I'm not a philosopher, so I ask this as a humble question, not an attack, as my readings in Deleuze are fairly shallow. I have a sense that he could be assailed in a way analogous to the assault on Husserl's transcendental ego: that possibility is entrailed in determinism and vice-versa and we are really talking about points on a spectrum rather than a movement into (a probably fictive) schizo-possibility. Doug Oliver ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:28:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: Robert Lax's address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the information Mr. Upton. Jesse Glass -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Upton. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, October 04, 1998 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Robert Lax's address >-----Original Message----- >From: Ward Tietz >Date: 04 October 1998 14:50 >Subject: Robert Lax's address > > >|As far as I know Robert Lax still lives on the Greek island of Patmos. We >|performed his Black/White Oratorio last year in Geneva with the assistance >|of John Beer who was helping Lax prepare his papers for an archive that's >|been recently established at the Friedsam Library at St. Bonaventure >|University in N.Y. You might try them for an exact address. > > >Patmos isn't a big place. I am pretty sure Robert Lax, Patmos, Greece would >find him. > >L > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:29:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: Robert Lax's address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks so much for your help. Jesse -----Original Message----- From: Ward Tietz To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, October 04, 1998 7:00 AM Subject: Robert Lax's address >As far as I know Robert Lax still lives on the Greek island of Patmos. We >performed his Black/White Oratorio last year in Geneva with the assistance >of John Beer who was helping Lax prepare his papers for an archive that's >been recently established at the Friedsam Library at St. Bonaventure >University in N.Y. You might try them for an exact address. > >Ward Tietz > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Enjambed by brigands Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question of the articulated linebreak never quite goes away. We have extremes -- Duncan actually counting to three between each line in his readings of Passages in 1970, the inaudible ones that Pinsky argues for -- and a million possible middle positions. I tend to side with Grumman here -- if there's no point to a linebreak, why break it? If there is a point, shouldn't it be sounded? But in practice in my readings I vary, sometimes being very strict about voicing them, then other times quite the opposite. It seems to me one of the decisions that turns the printed text literally into a score that may be performed. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:06:40 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: hejinian/coolidge/rova event coming up fast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dee: I still need to know where the improv fest is taking place, & directions from the north, (Im coming from 151 in wisconsin) would be greatly appreciated. miekal and -- -Dreamtime Village- [hypermedia works by Miekal And, Liaizon Wakest, Lyx Ish & Allegra Fi Wakest] -Qazingulaza- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:08:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: hejinian/coolidge/rova event coming up fast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry not awake ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:09:50 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Enjambed by brigands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Silliman wrote: > > The question of the articulated linebreak never quite goes away. We have > extremes -- Duncan actually counting to three between each line in his > readings of Passages in 1970, the inaudible ones that Pinsky argues for -- > and a million possible middle positions. I tend to side with Grumman here -- > if there's no point to a linebreak, why break it? If there is a point, > shouldn't it be sounded? But in practice in my readings I vary, sometimes > being very strict about voicing them, then other times quite the opposite. > It seems to me one of the decisions that turns the printed text literally > into a score that may be performed. > > Ron Yes, I would certainly agree that in performing a poem (even if only to oneself when silently reading it), there are times to disregard the line-break as a place to pause. Also times TO pause in the middle of lines that aren't indicated in any overt way at all in the poem. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:27:07 +0000 Reply-To: gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Line breaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The other ambiguity created by the stanza break, of course, in the ultrafamous Creeley poem cited by Doug Oliver (we go to forge in the smithies of our brains the uncreated anthologies of our erase), is whether "drive" is spoken by the "he" or the "I". Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd thought Creeley had said most people automatically assume the new stanza starts with an imperative by Not John, and that ain't necessarily so. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:26:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: listening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" gary, do you think this poem was written after listening to the recording of Pound reading the first canto, set keel to breakers etc. Do you think it matters. There's a lot about baseball in Language do you think Spicer was referring to Homer, as Pound was. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:52:49 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: down the bottle, line breaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit henry gould wrote: > > enjambment is > boring. > the whole idea that a > break in the > line might > MEAN something > un- > interests it- > self. enjambment is never boring only poets are who hang ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:49:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Really a nice piece on line breaks from Doug Oliver. I find that there are numerous ways to handle line breaks "right" (that is, surprisingly and satisfyinging). I find myself relishing the EFFECTIVE use of voice in performance. A frequent affectation is the overdoing of the pause in line breaks lacking punctuation, as though the standard pause will cover the situation. And it does not. There's a delicious art to this. It might even relate to allowing the intuition to do this FOR one, rather than forcing something that (however well intentioned) is simply magnified and spoiled in the effort. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:32:38 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: the sense of being white Content-Type: text/plain Some short poems that "open worlds" here. And, re: Linebreaks, especially with Joanne's work (actually, line placement on the page for her), is phanopoeia, the play of light and darkness on the page. Whether one reads through the break or not, it spares the eye the heavy burden of prose blocks. My humble opinion anyway, although even prose blocks can have their place... TWO POEMS BY JOANNE KYGER So, well, now, You've got it Alone now behind the scenes with the dishes and a fast embrace with Robert Duncan's Hestia. --I practiced being true to you and desperately Angry also just for the force of that energy as independence and the foresight that nothing lasts forever-- --PUSH OUT THE BREATH LINE-- Please no more ad nauseum dinky words down left hand center Margin of paper datedly practiced by second generation New York school -- stuck on their typewriters ______________________________________________ DECEMBER 22, 1996 The gale was upon us in a second. Was it the dope brownies that made us feel so wet all of a sudden the space between rain drops was filled with rain. This is serious business this existence thing this life without an umbrella and only a black hat between thoughts and the elements thundering down in an obligatory engulfing swoosh! _______________________________________ Or this one by Paul Blackburn AN ATMOSPHERE, or how put it to you, render. Tender is the. Past has some dignity after all, that is its re-al--its virtue, that you hold it close, hold it CLOSE, whatever I give you you gave it first . It's not hard to celebrate the sky But I heard the bus come thru the block, the bus after your bus, come thru. Two cats yowled, the starfish held out its five arms __________________________________________ Here's SCALLOP SONG by Anne Waldman I wore a garland of the briar that put me now in awe I wore a garland of the brain that was whole It commanded me, done babbling And I no more blabbed, spare no lie Tell womanhood she shake off pity Tell the man to give up tumult for the while To wonder at the sight of baby's beauty Ne let the monsters fray us with things that not be From a high tower poem issuing Everything run along in creation til I end the song Ne none fit for so wild beasts Ne none so joyous, ne none no give no lie Tell old woes to leave off here: I sing this into a scallop shell with face of a pearl & leave all sorrow bye & bye. _________________________________________ and finally, to try your patience once more, this poem by Ron Padgett BUCKETS Of rain hit the buildings but we in our apartments are kept dry by the buildings they're in the rain is rolling off the buildings and bouncing off and the roofs keep the rain from getting us wet the ceiling is not letting any water in it goes spat spat spat on the windowledge trying to get in the windowpane is streaked with rain trying to come in to go everywhere to make everything wet I am lying in my bed head near the window aware of all this thinking How Great We Win > >This seems to be a worthwhile direction to pursue. It moves us beyond >the >simple experimental/non-experimental dis cussions that go on and on and >on >top of the stove when I last saw it. Do you have an example of a poem >or >form that "hooks" the reader in and then engages in opening or closing >worlds? I am aware that I tend to be somewhat (or very!) opaque without >really intending to be. > >tom bell > > >-- ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm >http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm >http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm >http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm >http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:35:01 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: the sense of being white MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the little anthology of quite delightful poems, Dale--in case no one else does a thank you. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:38:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eurydice@AOL.COM Subject: Big Allis 8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List, At very long last, Big Allis 8 is here, and--in celebration--the following special offer is extended to the Poetics List (and its surroundings and acquaintances): If your order is received by midnight on October 31 (best Halloween wishes from Editor Melanie Neilson), I will send you a copy of Big Allis 8 for only $6 (payable to Deirdre Kovac), domestic postage included (the "newstand" price is $8). Big Allis 8 is a hefty 112 pages with a special selection of work by British and Irish writers (guest edited by Fiona Templeton)--Caroline Bergvall, Karlien van den Beukel, Andrea Brady, Miles Champion, Ken Edwards, David Kinloch, Sarah Law, Tertia Longmire, Helen Macdonald, Rob McKenzie, Drew Milne, Catherine Walsh, John Wilkinson, and Aaron Williamson--as well as work by Bruce Andrews, Graham Foust, Bob Harrison, Noah de Lissovoy, Alison Lune, Heather Ramsdell, Lisa Robertson and Christine Stewart, Juliana Spahr, Stephanie Strickland, H. T., Rodrigo Toscano, and Liz Waldner. And perfect bound. And with a stunning cover (designed by Jean Foos). IMPORTANT NOTE: Nothing regarding this offers should be sent to the Poetics List. All orders, queries, comments, et cetera should be sent directly to me at Eurydice@aol.com (please include full name, mailing address, and e-mail address). Or you can contact me via post at: Deirdre Kovac 20 Douglass Street, #3 Brooklyn, NY 11231 Many advance thanks. Best, Deirdre Kovac (Associate Editor, Big Allis) Eurydice@aol.com P.S. If you ordered issue number 8 from me back with the offer posted for the publication of number 7, your copy will be in the mail to you on Monday. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:41:28 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... I can remember > reading Cage's Silence in Rudd Fleming's modern poetry class at the > University of Maryland 30 years ago and then going home and popping on > Coltrane's Ascension and thinking these cats are onto something that > somehow expresses a marvelous continuity.---Carlo Parcelli On a vaguely related note, who here listens to music when they are reading poetry? Is it always distracting, gumming up or hijacking the rhythms of the poetry, or are there certain types of music which go well with certain poets? The question struck me since I was reading O'Hara at home yesterday, first with Philip Glass in the background, then with the Propellerheads. I should probably have listened to jazz, or perhaps Rachmaninoff, but both of the above seemed somehow appropriate. Also, are their certain types of music that you like to listen to when writing? I write mostly in cafes, where they're bound to be playing Massive Attack or Portishead, and that undoubtedly affects my writing. What if I always wrote to Mancini, or Kraftwerk, or the Prodigy? Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 05:23:24 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Beard wrote: > > > ... I can remember > > reading Cage's Silence in Rudd Fleming's modern poetry class at the > > University of Maryland 30 years ago and then going home and popping on > > Coltrane's Ascension and thinking these cats are onto something that > > somehow expresses a marvelous continuity.---Carlo Parcelli > > On a vaguely related note, who here listens to music when they are reading > poetry? Is it always distracting, gumming up or hijacking the rhythms of > the poetry, or are there certain types of music which go well with certain > poets? > > The question struck me since I was reading O'Hara at home yesterday, first > with Philip Glass in the background, then with the Propellerheads. I should > probably have listened to jazz, or perhaps Rachmaninoff, but both of the > above seemed somehow appropriate. > > Also, are their certain types of music that you like to listen to when > writing? I write mostly in cafes, where they're bound to be playing Massive > Attack or Portishead, and that undoubtedly affects my writing. What if I > always wrote to Mancini, or Kraftwerk, or the Prodigy? > > Tom Beard. I rec. Elvis Costello and B. Bacharach's new album for the delightful ear. If only they were involved in the discussion of Enjambment and teh Avante Guarde. Todd Baron ps: the new Prostetic Cubans album is worth writing to-- as in Towards. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:34:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Information requested on German poetry website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDF502.C0B885E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDF502.C0B885E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To members of the list: Recently I was delighted to discover one of my poems translated into = German and posted at the following website: = www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/nds/hoelder/tex.../ The translator is Lothar = van Laak If anyone knows anything about this site, and about this = poet--including his address--I'd be grateful if you passed it on. I'd = like to thank Lothar for a wonderful surprise. My German is minimal, = but perhaps for those fluent in the language, this site might be of = interest. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDF502.C0B885E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To members of the list:
 
Recently I was delighted to discover = one of my=20 poems translated into German and posted at the following website: www.uni-tueb= ingen.de/uni/nds/hoelder/tex.../ =20 The translator is Lothar van Laak   If anyone knows anything = about=20 this site, and about this poet--including his address--I'd be grateful = if you=20 passed it on.  I'd like to thank Lothar for a wonderful = surprise.  My=20 German is minimal, but perhaps for those fluent in the language, this = site might=20 be of interest.
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BDF502.C0B885E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:18:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Line breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Vaughan is writing in song-form, which was closely related to dance. The metrics are full of the kinds of surprises and syncopations that one would expect in Dowland or Campion. And there is, as in those two, an acute attention to quantity. Note, in this regard, that shall and when can be read as lightly stressed, and just as easily interpreted as first syllables of an anapest as of a trochee. What you have, then, is a spondee opening the short line, the second line in iambic tetrameter, the next two of much shorter duration--almost breathless, introduced by those dancing anapests--in trimeter, another much longer line in iambic tetrameter, and a trochaic dimeter cadence to the final couplet. No matter how you read the emphasis (by which I assume you mean stress) of run and when, run remains much longer in duration. At 04:23 AM 10/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >I think Aviva Vogel has the right thing to say about line breaks: it's not >just a matter of hesitation or of emphasis on the last word before the line- >break. There are all kinds of emphases. > >I've studied this fairly closely with linguistic machinery reading out voice >traces, though I concentrated for ease of analysis mostly on poetry with >traditional metrics. For example, if you take this line break from Henry >Vaughan: > > When shall that cry >'The bridegroom's coming' fill the sky? >Shall it in the evening run >When our words and works are done >Or will thy all surprising light >Break at midnight. > >There is no hesitation and not much difference in emphasis between "run" and >"when" and there is no break in sound at all between those two words (at least >in my own performance of them). Yet a definite sense of line break is given. >How? Well, only partly by the rhyme scheme and syntax, I think (note, the >rhyme has not yet come but may be anticipated). What happens is that the >voicing (buzzing of the larynx) is continuous between "run" and "when" because >of the nasalisation and the fact that the lips can form the "w" without >interrupting the nasal tones. What causes the sensation of line break in this >case is the *timing* of that lip movement: that is, the hesitation, if you >like, is created within the sounding of the line by using different parts of >the vocal apparatus. The lips move to form the "wh" but the "wh" formation is >not a precise moment either: something conceptual also takes place, siting the >moment of break as if mathematically within the change of sound from nose to >lips. > >The traces show what the ear hears: the sounding of the line is virtually >continuous from "Shall" to "words" and the actual pauses come between "words" >and "and", between "works" and "are" and between "are" and "done". This is >because the voicing in the larynx is broken at those times by silence imposed >by shifts in the vocal apparatus and/or by the interruption of voiceless >consonants into the voicing (which can give a sensation of semi-pause >exploitable, also, for line-breaks). > >The importance of voice in creating the pacing of poetry (not to mention its >several other effects) is little understood, in my opinion. For example, the >impressive pausing in "Break at midnight" is much a creature of the >interaction between voiceless consonants "k" especially, and the the >continuous, heavy voicing possible in "midnight", plus pause-creating changes >in sound position in the mouth. > >There are many ways of creating line breaks and the break itself is almost >infinitely variable in its quasi-duration". You can, for example, create a >line break with voiceless consonants but this can become a complex question of >duration. In Creeley's famous poem > >drive, he sd, for >christ's sake, look >out where yr going > >the line break from "for" to "christ" is formed by the staccato onset of >"christ" in the back of the throat, though the "r" can be drawled to create a >tension about when the line is ending. Had Creeley made the break between >"christ's" and "sake" it would then become a question of how long to continue >the continuous hissing until a sense of line closure was achieved -- that >would be an infinitesimal decision relative to any one single reading of the >poem, but there would be no pause in sounding of the voiceless fricatives -- >the break could be indicated by a sense that the hissing had gone on "long >enough". > >This kind of thing (the immersion of rule in practice, always) is, to take up >that other thread, what pragmatics means to me in terms of linguistics or >prosody: all ideas come down to their situational usage, and you can't create >a positivistic or symbolic logic that will finally work. The appearance of >pragmatics as a buzz word was easy to anticipate from philosophical trends of >the 1980s, but I personally think poets already have this approach to their >craft: it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing, and so on. > >Isn't Deleuze's radicalisation of possibility not so much schizoid as >radically incoherent? I'm not a philosopher, so I ask this as a humble >question, not an attack, as my readings in Deleuze are fairly shallow. I have >a sense that he could be assailed in a way analogous to the assault on >Husserl's transcendental ego: that possibility is entrailed in determinism and >vice-versa and we are really talking about points on a spectrum rather than a >movement into (a probably fictive) schizo-possibility. > >Doug Oliver > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 04:43:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss's remarks on Vaughan very interesting -- I agree about the influence from Elizabethan song, the sense of a poem turning on the ball of the foot. Mine was not a contribution to the question of line breaks in total: it was only a look at traditional metrics insofar as they enlighten us about modern practices. I fully take Dale's good point about positioning on page and all the rest of our modern subtleties. As our mag, Gare du Nord, has recently argued -- Joanne is firmly cited in this respect, Anne Waldman could be another -- the positioning of words on the page bears a mysterious and captivating trace of a poetry-life-lived. My word "emphasis" is not to be confused with "stress", however. I meant by it whatever way we emphasise a line break -- either through actual pause, shift in mouth position, change of pitch (which I didn't mention), or any of the many other ways, including how the line looks print, emphasis through bodily gesture in performance, etc. etc. I was not, in fact, conducting traditional scansion at all, just looking at the literal traces left by the voice on linguistic machinery. How a word is stressed, light or heavy, is one of those infinitesimally adjustable features depending on any one reader's single performance of a particular line. Traditional scansion can only capture this crudely. Shall it in the evening run When our words and works are done f Mark wants to say that "when" or "shall" in the Vaughan poem can be a light stress, or that there's a spondee or anapest, or that "run" should be a long duration, I'd say "Fine, if that's the way you're hearing it right now." (Though I'm not clear which "when" or "shall" he refers to because both words occur earlier.) You can place heavy or light stresses when reading these words at your will, either respecting their basic metrical status or not -- an American voice may do this differently from an English one: "run", for example, will more naturally extend in American than in English English, I suspect. It remains that the degree of stress will still be infinitely variable depending upon expectations set up by a particular reading -- no scansion will be secure or perhaps very revealing. (In linguistics a couple called Trager and Smith set up the heresy that there were only a set number of stress weightings. Their error was to measure subjects' reactions to fragmented samples in a laboratory, thus missing the whole use of language in poetic flow and performance. Linguists love this kind of definiteness.) The basic problem with traditional metrics is that the relationship between stress and duration of syllable is very poorly understood, since any feature (pitch, loudness, tempo, past or future of the cadence on either side of a syllable, etc.) that gives a stress its lightness or heaviness is inseparable from duration. Our sense of a stress is also semantically or emotionally freighted. Quantity, which Mark mentions, is a term which slightly straddles duration, stress, orthography, and semantics; its definition is therefore equally difficult. The ambiguity between stress and duration is why the French can work with abstract syllable count and the commonest English tradition with stress count: the resultant music is different but both poetries "work" in a similar way -- beat and duration and pitch and voice quality and loudness/softness and meaning and emotional significance, and so on, all, truly speaking, inextricable. Since pitch is involved in stress/duration, I don't suppose Chinese poetry is all that different *in its basic manner of creating affect, either* though obviously the idiogrammatic prosody will create a perhaps very different mental process. As Pound hoped. The grammatical role of tones makes a further difference. It is all this play across different poetic features, in fact, which leads us onwards into modern practices where the resulting ambiguities and uncertainties can be placed into tension through various procedures, perhaps including those areas where performance, concrete, sound, visual, filmic, and printing techniques interlace with poetry. This offers some hope about creating meeting grounds between the poetries of different cultures and about spreading appreciation of novelty. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 06:29:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Robert Kelly in the NYT Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you direct your browser to the New York Times today, you will see a review of Philip Roth's new novel reviewed by Robert Kelly. Great to see, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:05:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: More from the same NY Times Comments: To: Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the same issue of the NY Times Book Review (online at least -- I've not seen the hard copy) that has its cover review by Robert Kelly, that admits that Brad Leithauser's poetry may have some limitations and that Robert Bly's most recent book is just silly (these are different reviews, by the way), is a brief review by Rick Whitaker of Edwin Denby's new _Dance Writings and Poetry_ just out from Yale. Here is the entire comment on Denby's poetry: "The poems seem dated and quaint." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Comments: To: Duane.Davis@gte.net In-Reply-To: <001c01bdf40b$55043a80$99bffed0@default> from "Duane Davis" at Oct 9, 98 11:03:32 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duane, this is tripe. Would you ever give *any* literary critic props for arguing that *some* poetry is bad/bad news. This is essentially what your praise of Adorno amounts to: like a stroke of lightening at midnight he has discovered that some jazz is bad. Well, no shit. But as cultural critics there's a special imperative on us not to drown in our own ill-informed generalizations, thus adding fuel to the fire of criticism that we put cart before horse & don't usually know whereof we speak. The truth is, Adorno just dropped the ball here (now I'm really mixing metaphors at a furious pace) and we should be able to appreciate his many positive efforts w/out holding his drunk ass up at this particular party. -m. According to Duane Davis: > > As I have no ear for jazz I find Adorno quite useful for tweaking the noses > of the high minded: > > "Yet none of this alters the fact that jazz has in its essence remained > static, nor does it explain the resulting enigma that millions of people > seem never to tire of its monotonous attraction." > > "The range of the permissible in jazz is as narrowly circumscribed as in any > particular cut of clothes." > > "Anyone who allows the growing respectability of mass culture to seduce him > into equating a popular song with modern art because of a few false notes > squeaked by a clarinet; anyone who mistakes a triad studded with 'dirty > notes' for atonality, has already capitulated to barbarism." > > "In the process of integrating the asocial, jazz converges with the equally > standardized schemas of the detective novel and its offshoots, which > regularly distort or unmask the world so that asociality and crime become > the everyday norm, but which at the same time charm away the seductive and > ominous challenge through the inevitable triumph of order." > > Adorno, "Perennial Fashion--Jazz" in PRISMS > > Is this the final word on jazz? Of course not. Have Adorno's words in fact > had any appreciable influence on jazz? Again, of course not. Is he right > about some aspects of jazz and jazz listeners? Oh yes, quite right. I've > owned a record store for twenty years and have listened to a fair amount of > jazz and jazz talk: some of it stimulating, some of it fatuous. The > danger, and the beauty as well, of this essay is that you can substitute for > "jazz" most any identifiable style of music, monkey with a few of the > definitions and pronouncements, and come up with something suitable to piss > just about anyone off. > > Duane Davis > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 08:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: More from the same NY Times In-Reply-To: <002801bdf517$cfff2620$9738fea9@oemcomputer> from "Ron Silliman" at Oct 11, 98 08:05:22 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would have to agree that Leithauser's poetry does have a few limitations (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?1!?) -m. According to Ron Silliman: > > >From the same issue of the NY Times Book Review (online at least -- I've not > seen the hard copy) that has its cover review by Robert Kelly, that admits > that Brad Leithauser's poetry may have some limitations and that Robert > Bly's most recent book is just silly (these are different reviews, by the > way), is a brief review by Rick Whitaker of Edwin Denby's new _Dance > Writings and Poetry_ just out from Yale. Here is the entire comment on > Denby's poetry: "The poems seem dated and quaint." > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:15:28 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: More from the same NY Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Magee wrote: > > I would have to agree that Leithauser's poetry does have a few limitations > (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?1!?) > Yeah, Just glad it doesn't have enough yet for the Times to deem it unworthy of review and start reviewing contemporary poetry of consequence. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 07:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: <535cbebe.36206f97@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well put. Last night I was too punch-drunk from a long hike to mention that your attention to the physiology of verse seems to me important. At 04:43 AM 10/11/98 EDT, you wrote: >Mark Weiss's remarks on Vaughan very interesting -- I agree about the >influence from Elizabethan song, the sense of a poem turning on the ball of >the foot. > >Mine was not a contribution to the question of line breaks in total: it was >only a look at traditional metrics insofar as they enlighten us about modern >practices. I fully take Dale's good point about positioning on page and all >the rest of our modern subtleties. As our mag, Gare du Nord, has recently >argued -- Joanne is firmly cited in this respect, Anne Waldman could be >another -- the positioning of words on the page bears a mysterious and >captivating trace of a poetry-life-lived. > >My word "emphasis" is not to be confused with "stress", however. I meant by >it whatever way we emphasise a line break -- either through actual pause, >shift in mouth position, change of pitch (which I didn't mention), or any of >the many other ways, including how the line looks print, emphasis through >bodily gesture in performance, etc. etc. > >I was not, in fact, conducting traditional scansion at all, just looking at >the literal traces left by the voice on linguistic machinery. How a word is >stressed, light or heavy, is one of those infinitesimally adjustable features >depending on any one reader's single performance of a particular line. >Traditional scansion can only capture this crudely. > >Shall it in the evening run >When our words and works are done > >f Mark wants to say that "when" or "shall" in the Vaughan poem can be a light >stress, or that there's a spondee or anapest, or that "run" should be a long >duration, I'd say "Fine, if that's the way you're hearing it right now." >(Though I'm not clear which "when" or "shall" he refers to because both words >occur earlier.) You can place heavy or light stresses when reading these >words at your will, either respecting their basic metrical status or not -- an >American voice may do this differently from an English one: "run", for >example, will more naturally extend in American than in English English, I >suspect. > >It remains that the degree of stress will still be infinitely variable >depending upon expectations set up by a particular reading -- no scansion will >be secure or perhaps very revealing. (In linguistics a couple called Trager >and Smith set up the heresy that there were only a set number of stress >weightings. Their error was to measure subjects' reactions to fragmented >samples in a laboratory, thus missing the whole use of language in poetic flow >and performance. Linguists love this kind of definiteness.) > >The basic problem with traditional metrics is that the relationship between >stress and duration of syllable is very poorly understood, since any feature >(pitch, loudness, tempo, past or future of the cadence on either side of a >syllable, etc.) that gives a stress its lightness or heaviness is inseparable >from duration. Our sense of a stress is also semantically or emotionally >freighted. Quantity, which Mark mentions, is a term which slightly straddles >duration, stress, orthography, and semantics; its definition is therefore >equally difficult. > >The ambiguity between stress and duration is why the French can work with >abstract syllable count and the commonest English tradition with stress count: >the resultant music is different but both poetries "work" in a similar way -- >beat and duration and pitch and voice quality and loudness/softness and >meaning and emotional significance, and so on, all, truly speaking, >inextricable. Since pitch is involved in stress/duration, I don't suppose >Chinese poetry is all that different *in its basic manner of creating affect, >either* though obviously the idiogrammatic prosody will create a perhaps very >different mental process. As Pound hoped. The grammatical role of tones makes >a further difference. > >It is all this play across different poetic features, in fact, which leads us >onwards into modern practices where the resulting ambiguities and >uncertainties can be placed into tension through various procedures, perhaps >including those areas where performance, concrete, sound, visual, filmic, and >printing techniques interlace with poetry. This offers some hope about >creating meeting grounds between the poetries of different cultures and about >spreading appreciation of novelty. > > >Doug > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 11:41:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: Robert Kelly in the NYT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit which praises the novel, perhaps compensating for the piece by Michiko Kakutani in the Times during the week which was quite negative about I MARRIED A COMMUNIST ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:30:12 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: line breaks Content-Type: text/plain I appreciate Douglas' generous words about metrics, especially regarding the use of more traditional elements to create tension in contemporary poems. He writes: >It is all this play across different poetic features, in fact, which >leads us onwards into modern practices where the resulting >ambiguities and uncertainties can be placed into tension through >various procedures, perhaps including those areas where performance, >concrete, sound, visual, filmic, and printing techniques interlace >with poetry. This offers some hope about creating meeting grounds >between the poetries of different cultures and about spreading >appreciation of novelty. Ed Sanders, in an "essay on poetics" called CREATIVITY AND THE FULLY DEVELOPED BARD, devotes a chapter to meter that I have found useful. He writes: No bard is fully realized without a knowledge of meter It's as simple as that-- You can groan, "Ah, Sanders, desist! desist!" but it's true. You have to SING into your clusters where the vowels carry the melody and the consonants, those click-tracks of infinity, are the percussion. All poetry can be parsed into patterns of classic meter-- and bards DO hold syllables quantitatively as they read or chant. Tones rise as they read, tones change as they end a line-- sometimes it's subtle. Sanders then lists some of the main classical meters before looking closely at poems that use these in varying combinations, forming tension and flow of sound to correlate with other elements involved with each piece. In a poem of Whitman's, he shows how various classical meters are released for a desired (conscious? unconscious?) effect: Out of the cradle endlessly rocking (twin adonics) Out of the mocking-bird's throat, the musical shuttle (dactyl and paean) Out of the Ninth-month midnight, Over the sterile sands and the fields beyond, where the child leaving his bed wander'd alone, bareheaded, bare foot, Down from the shower'd halo (choriambs) Sorry I can't mark the meters in this format, but you get the idea. The sound and rhythm shifts to reenforce the meaning of the line, as in the dull rocking rhythm of the first. Anyway, it's all very interesting. I'm not sure where to find the Sanders piece. I have a xeroxed copy here. Dale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:32:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: word breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional letterpress? bill(x)marsh - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: <535cbebe.36206f97@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just to chime in hear to say i wish i had doug o and some of you others around when i'm being bombarded with the various rationalisms of those linguist-rhetoricians who maintain w/o concession that "words are strictly thus & so," ergo should be taught thus & so-ly [wink]---which inevitably leaves out of the brew so many things poetic, along with so much that is rightfully a part of language practice... of course some poets aver thus & so-ly as well... but there is just SO much to a "simple" line break, yknow, depends on who's doing the listening or looking... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:40:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Robert Kelly in the NYT In-Reply-To: <3620995F.1E0D@his.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" for those interested, john leonard just panned _i married a communist_ this morning (on cbs's "sunday morning")... as i heard him, he felt the novel just didn't hold up when understood as roth's payback wrt his ex-wife claire bloom's earlier (biting) memoir... todd gitlin, on the other hand, finds much of value in the novel in a review (entitled "payback time") in the book section of today's chicago trib... i guess opinions vary, as per... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 12:52:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: line breaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas Oliver wrote: > Mine was not a contribution to the question of line breaks in total: it was > only a look at traditional metrics insofar as they enlighten us about modern > practices. I fully take Dale's good point about positioning on page and all > the rest of our modern subtleties. As our mag, Gare du Nord, has recently > argued -- Joanne is firmly cited in this respect, Anne Waldman could be > another -- the positioning of words on the page bears a mysterious and > captivating trace of a poetry-life-lived. > > My word "emphasis" is not to be confused with "stress", however. I meant by > it whatever way we emphasise a line break -- either through actual pause, > shift in mouth position, change of pitch (which I didn't mention), or any of > the many other ways, including how the line looks print, emphasis through > bodily gesture in performance, etc. etc. > Thank you, Doug. I'm intrigued with the idea of poem as "score," which necessarily implies performance -- or does it? Anne Waldman's work is a good example of this, existing in both realms. From a musician's perspective, the score is but a skeleton of potential performance. It's also something studied intently, read and re-read, scribbled on, pondered over. (Satie, by the way, wrote incredible "directions" to the performer, such as "as if to be a hole.") And once one's decided what something in the score "means" there's still the matter of how to convey that. Is an accent expressed in length, volume, force of attack, altered attack, etc. This sort of interpretation is what makes music "musical." Poetry, it seems, must be capable of its own "musicality" _without_ the skilled interpreter, i.e. on its own on the page. The reader, in this sense, is the performer. What a responsibility! How much scoring can really come across? when does it detract or confuse? How much ambiguity is just enough? Music as we usually conceive of it exists only in time. Is the score music or not music? Does poetry exist outside of time? I think it does, but I can't get at why or how. My rationalizing seems to suggest the opposite. But poetry's not rational? Or is that a cop-out? Anyway, it makes such a difference to my reading if I've heard the author's voice. Do we write for our own voice, as Beethoven wrote for the piano, or for any voice, as much Baroque music was written? -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 15:20:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Monks Pond In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone out there know much about Th. Merton's little magazine, _Monks Pond_, which ran 4 issues during 1968, the final of which Merton himself did not live to read? I just found an incredible 9x12 facsimile edition of all four issues in the commons here in Ithaca. Cannot believe the eclecticism of these issues. Anselm Hollo, Paul Metcalf, Zukofsky, Jonathan Williams, Simon Perchik, Kerouac, Russell Edson, Merton hisself, Simic, even Mark Van Doren, Wendell Berry, Czeslaw Milosz. This is great! (Few women, though: Lorine Niedecker, Margaret Randall, Lindy Hough, Nancy-Lou Patterson, Dorothy Beck, Gail Waechter, Sister M. Therese). Had anyone seen of it, heard of it, is it famous, infamous, unknown? 1). It is great fun to type "Adorno" 2). It is great fun to type "pragmatics" "linguistics" and "linguistic pragmatics" 3). Adorno Adorno pragmatics linguistics linguistic pragmatics 4). What a hoot. Warmly, Gabe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:06:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: word breaks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981011103234.007f88c0@nunic.nu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Not exactly an answer but the act of adjusting the spaces between letters is called kerning so I guess that the space is a kern. The dictionary says that a kern is "the portion of the typeface beyond the body or shank of a character." A kern is also "a Medieval Scottish or Irish foot soldier" and "a loutish person." I guess this is why the language we speak is called *English*. Wouldn't the act of adjusting the spaces between words be called justifying? Letter-press people? Does that make the space a "just"? Steven On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, William Marsh wrote: > is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between > words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional > letterpress? > > bill(x)marsh > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - > William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:54:23 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Magee wrote: > Would you ever give *any* literary critic props for > arguing that *some* poetry is bad/bad news. > Well, no shit. > But as cultural > critics there's a special imperative on us > ill-informed generalizations, > thus adding fuel to the fire of criticism > Adorno just dropped his drunk ass up at this particular party. > > -m. > > According to Duane Davis: > > > Adorno quite useful > > of the high minded: > > > > "Yet none of this alters the fact Adornos like the impertinence of line breaking. A Perelmen fetished marginalization of. Jameson's _Adorno, Or the Persistence of the Dialectic_ is aptly titled. To feel, viscerally, that dialectic, these days, you have to kinda trip on Adorno as Adorno. (And, you know, we're all looking for a 'good' 'relationship'.) The Persistence of Adorno. But why not have that little affected antithesis while getting off on a little syncopated negro transcendence illusion. and allll that jazz. Petulant, pessimism and stoic enjambment can, like, get yous over your own consumer identifications. EVen way over there. in that poet-niche. Maybe it is a LATE STAGE with its own cultural logics of this historical mode of production. At least as much as all that sweetness and light. And ALL the spaces are temporality cause we don't have history anymores. We don't have time. All crowded out. Breath, One, Two, Three. Recommend Simon Winchester's _Professor and the Madman_.For no other reason than Oxford has put the OED on sale. mc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:25:48 -0600 Reply-To: Duane Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duane Davis Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Dude, lighten up... You seem to have missed the point here: I wrote that I found Adorno on jazz to be "useful" -- which is not the same thing as "praise." How "useful" Adorno is in "tweaking the noses of the high minded" is wonderfully evident in your priggish response... Let me, briefly, set out in a somewhat clearer form the point you were trying to make: What makes Adorno's essay on jazz bad is indeed its lack of specificity. Adorno has not defined his subject nor deigned to narrow or limit its scope. Thus, what appear to be some trenchant comments on a particular musical form are lost in this lack of focus. As I pointed out in my own message, this essay employs a kind of cookie cutter approach: Adorno's comments here are not all that different from comments he made regarding other cultural productions, but, in this case, Michael, you appear to disagree with him while elsewhere you "appreciate his many positive efforts." Its dawning on me that a better theme song for you than a Duke Ellington number might be Leslie Gore's "It's My Party And I'll Cry If I want To." Duane -----Original Message----- From: Michael Magee To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz >Duane, this is tripe. Would you ever give *any* literary critic props for >arguing that *some* poetry is bad/bad news. This is essentially what your >praise of Adorno amounts to: like a stroke of lightening at midnight he >has discovered that some jazz is bad. Well, no shit. But as cultural >critics there's a special imperative on us not to drown in our own >ill-informed generalizations, thus adding fuel to the fire of criticism >that we put cart before horse & don't usually know whereof we speak. The >truth is, Adorno just dropped the ball here (now I'm really mixing >metaphors at a furious pace) and we should be able to appreciate his many >positive efforts w/out holding his drunk ass up at this particular party. > >-m. > > >According to Duane Davis: > >> As I have no ear for jazz I find Adorno quite useful for tweaking the noses >> of the high minded: >> >> "Yet none of this alters the fact that jazz has in its essence remained >> static, nor does it explain the resulting enigma that millions of people >> seem never to tire of its monotonous attraction." >> >> "The range of the permissible in jazz is as narrowly circumscribed as in any >> particular cut of clothes." >> >> "Anyone who allows the growing respectability of mass culture to seduce him >> into equating a popular song with modern art because of a few false notes >> squeaked by a clarinet; anyone who mistakes a triad studded with 'dirty >> notes' for atonality, has already capitulated to barbarism." >> >> "In the process of integrating the asocial, jazz converges with the equally >> standardized schemas of the detective novel and its offshoots, which >> regularly distort or unmask the world so that asociality and crime become >> the everyday norm, but which at the same time charm away the seductive and >> ominous challenge through the inevitable triumph of order." >> >> Adorno, "Perennial Fashion--Jazz" in PRISMS >> >> Is this the final word on jazz? Of course not. Have Adorno's words in fact >> had any appreciable influence on jazz? Again, of course not. Is he right >> about some aspects of jazz and jazz listeners? Oh yes, quite right. I've >> owned a record store for twenty years and have listened to a fair amount of >> jazz and jazz talk: some of it stimulating, some of it fatuous. The >> danger, and the beauty as well, of this essay is that you can substitute for >> "jazz" most any identifiable style of music, monkey with a few of the >> definitions and pronouncements, and come up with something suitable to piss >> just about anyone off. >> >> Duane Davis >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:06:45 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Jacket # 5 now partly built Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacket magazine A N N O U N C E M E N T Jacket is a literary quarterly free on the Internet, edited from Sydney Australia by poet John Tranter. Issue # 5 is now under construction, and is due for completion late in October 1998. In November John Tranter will travel to the US, the UK, and Paris to gather fresh produce for number 6, due in January 1999. Features planned for # 6 include material on Nathalien Tarn, Jack Spicer and Robert Duncan. In the meantime, check out Jacket # 5, at this URL: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket05/index05.html You can read the following: M I N A L O Y F E A T U R E Introductory Chapter to "Becoming Modern - the Life of Mina Loy", by Carolyn Burke Biographer Carolyn Burke interviewed by Pamela Brown Excerpts from reviews of "Becoming Modern - the Life of Mina Loy" Very Rapid Acceleration - interview with New York poet Kenneth KOCH Douglas Oliver : The School of Bedlam from "Whisper Louise", a work-in-progress P O E M S from Bill Berkson,John Kinsella, Bill Freind, and 2 poems from "Disobedience" by Alice Notley . . . and, as usual, a lather of photographs and other visuals. Drop by, try the fit of the Jacket, and if you like it, tell your friends! ( I understand that you may not wish to receive these notices. ( If so, please reply to this email to that effect, and ( I'll take your name off the mailing list pronto. [ J.T. ] from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/welcome.html Homepage: five megabytes of glittering literature, free, at http://www.alm.aust.com/~tranterj/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:54:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: word breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill: I think the basic term is "em," which is the square of the type body size, also known as an "em space" or "quad." In twelve point type, a quad is 12 points wide by 12 points deep. An "en quad" is 1/2 an em, or 6 points wide by 12 points deep. Other spaces for 12 point are the 3 em space, which is 4 points wide, the 4 em space (3 points wide), etc. The space between lines is called leading, while kerning (in linotype, at least) is the projection of one letter, such as a lower-case "f" over another. This comes from "The Design of Books" by Adrian Wilson. Hugh Steinberg Bill Marsh writes: >is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >letterpress? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:59:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: word breaks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981011103234.007f88c0@nunic.nu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" there probably is -- but in 19 years of setting type and making books, including early study with walter hamady of such matters -- I never heard it called anything but "wordspacing." charles At 10:32 AM 10/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >letterpress? > >bill(x)marsh > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - >William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:17:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: word breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Justifying is usually limited to adjusting lines so that they line up evenly on both the left and right margin. That is accomplished by adjusting word spaces -- but can be accomplished by adding minute spacing material between individual letters; also can be accomplished (in prose, not poetry), by adjusting the total length of line until an appropriate length is found which both 'looks' right and which allows for easiest justification. And if you're the writer of a piece you're typesetting, then a lot can be done to help justification by re-writing. But no, the act of adjusting individual spaces between words is not called justifying. Nor is it called kerning. A space is not a just and a space between words is not a kern. One tries to stick with a consistent spacing between words as much as possible -- say, if using 12-point type, with 4-em or 5-em spaces, depending on individual preference. A 12-point em being a piece of spacing which is 12points by 12points square. It takes four 4-em spaces to make an em (also called a "quad"). Some of the terminology is mathematical (sort of) then, some is certainly odd and antiquated, but some is pretty clear, like letterspacing and wordspacing. In the practice as I know it, the term kerning is usually limited to reducing space between letters by actually trimming, with a special trimmer, that space "beyond the body or shank of a character," while expanding the space between letters to achieve desired effects and proportions is called letterspacing. The latter generally happens a lot more often than the former. charles At 04:06 PM 10/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >Not exactly an answer but the act of adjusting the spaces between letters >is called kerning so I guess that the space is a kern. The dictionary says >that a kern is "the portion of the typeface beyond the body or shank of a >character." A kern is also "a Medieval Scottish or Irish foot soldier" and >"a loutish person." I guess this is why the language we speak is called >*English*. Wouldn't the act of adjusting the spaces between words be >called justifying? Letter-press people? Does that make the space a "just"? > >Steven > >On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, William Marsh wrote: > >> is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >> words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >> letterpress? >> >> bill(x)marsh >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> - - - - >> William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> - - - - >> > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:29:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: word breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:54 PM 10/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >Bill: I think the basic term is "em," which is the square of the type body >size, also known as an "em space" or "quad." In twelve point type, a quad >is 12 points wide by 12 points deep. An "en quad" is 1/2 an em, or 6 >points wide by 12 points deep. Other spaces for 12 point are the 3 em >space, which is 4 points wide, the 4 em space (3 points wide), etc. The >space between lines is called leading, while kerning (in linotype, at >least) is the projection of one letter, such as a lower-case "f" over >another. it makes sense to me, hugh & bill, that this would be the case in linotype. Because this is what happens in monotype, too, if one takes kerning as the cutting away of the edge of the body of a letter, in order to fit letters closer together. But I'm sure glad that there are characters such as ligatures (letter-combinations cast as a single piece of metal type), particularly for the combinations "ff," "fi," "ffl," and "ffi" -- because otherwise you really can't fit those letters together without potentially breaking part of the letter. With other combinations with "f," though, the situation is pretty simple in monotype. On the "f" the form of the top curve of the letter actually extends beyond the base of the piece of type, and thus the letter naturally fits over other lower-case letters except for ones with tall straight ascenders. I don't think anyone would use an "em" as a space between words, though -- it would make for particularly huge spaces between words, big enough to look pretty awkward. Lots of lettepress typesetters use 4-em spaces between words; quite a few use 3-em spaces between words; and a few use as thin a space as a 5-em space between words. charles charles >This comes from "The Design of Books" by Adrian Wilson. > >Hugh Steinberg > >Bill Marsh writes: > >>is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >>words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >>letterpress? > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 01:58:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Salamone Subject: Dreamtime Village MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I go to Fredonia State and I got this message from Dreamtime Village about a Peter Lamborn Wilson (a.k.a. Hakim Bey) talk and I observed that it had also been sent to you people. Was this an accident or are you also interested in the Village? Ever been there, plan to go sometime? Please get back to me when you get a chance. thanks, Paul s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 04:25:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Appreciated all the contributions, and liked Dale's reminder of Ed the Sanders' grace with classical meters. Laura's point about the poem as score certainly chimes with my own notions, but I'm curious to know what apparent "fixities" of sound reside in the score to enable any interpretation at all. A German linguist called Sievers back in the 1920s managed to distinguish what he called the neutral music residing in printed lines of speech -- that is, the music the words *would have* if readers gave them no special emphasis or interpretation. It's a tantalising concept because, of course, every reader has a different voice, dialect, emotional tone, spirit, and will always interpret the words differently to at least some degree. Also, as I have found, even the same reader (me) may differ from himself in performance of the same lines of poetry across, say, a two year gap *more than* some other competent reader differed from (my) original performance. I don't really believe science can do more than touch the hem of such questions (I'm not a filfthy British empiricist). Yet I have tested this sense we might have of a neutral music in a poem by comparing different readers performing some lines of Pope's -- I chose Pope because the more formal the match of line to preordained metrics is the more likely it is that there will be consonance between different readers' performances of the same poem. I recorded seven readings and submitted them to two or three panels of listeners who judged which readings made the "best basic music" for the poem in question. My conclusions from the intonation/duration traces were that three or four readers judged as "good" seem to discern elements of a neutral tune the words *could have* if they were performed neutrally (though of course this is impossible). There was sufficient convergence between the performances for this conclusion to seem secure, at least for these lines of Pope's. If there really were a neutral tune that would be the score we are looking for. The next bit's complicated. I don't think a neutral tune exists as a score, but that each good, orthodox performance of Pope's lines will set up an expectation of a roughly similar neutral tune, a dim sense of a tune probably specifically arising as a ground base during that individual performance. But there will be a neutral tune suggested by each individual performances: for example, even if the same reader performs the lines again, he/she may start the next time at a slightly higher pitch, and this will change all the note values which follow. Nevertheless, these ground base tunes, though they may vary slightly from reader to reader and from performance to performance, may verge towards identity, again if the metrics is fairly strict. The machine traces showed that, and the result was just about the same with lines by Wyatt, and others by Ronsard, read by French speakers. But the neutral tune is a figment, a possibility arising only at the precise time of performance: the actual performance must depart from that neutral music if it is to have any real life and not be merely metronomic. These departures are what we call interpretation -- the necessary varying from neutrality in order to give life. Re-emphasis: there is not one neutral tune, but there is similarity between the ground base musics set up by various performances, musics from which the performances depart in order to create interpretation. So that I don't offend too far against reader response freaks, let me add that I also believe that a talented different interpretation of the lines, which departs much more radically from the commonly perceived neutral music, may be equally valid. (But this does not include the average actor hamming up a poem and losing its music.) Where the metrics are more difficult for average readers to perceive, as in so much modern work, it's much harder to compare readings and find a shared sense of neutral music. This is because for there to be any agreement over what tune to make in a performance there has pretty much to be identity of interpretation (as is also true even with traditional metrics). So it's chicken and egg: if you agree with me pretty fully on interpretation of the words you will make a similar tune -- providing we are both competent readers from a similar dialect group; but if you make a similar tune that will imply we agree pretty fully on interpretation. Poetry which deliberately hands much of the interpretation task over to the reader -- as in poems where the "signifier floats free", etc. -- may therefore fall outside testability. Although if we found that two readers made the same tune in performance, this might open up interesting discussion about interpretation of the poem in question. Yet I would still hold to the further corollary: if my chicken and egg picture is correct, it still means that any one performance even of a poem whose interpretation is open will sense that it is creating the possibility of an unexpressive neutral tune, specific to that performance and underlying its actual vocal interpretation. My justification is: if that were not so, how would the performer know how to create expressive effects by, say, raising pitch slightly, increasing loudness, extending syllable duration? I don't see how interpretation can take place in a void or how expressive affect can occur psychologically without some tension being created between actual sound and our sense of a musical grounding. That is, how could the performer interpret the piece at all? This is open to accusations of Platonism, but that would be incorrect. Despite Sievers and Plato, the "neutral tune" doesn't exist, any more than pure possibility or "Idea" exist: it's an ineffable will o' the wisp that we necessarily create as we perform and, in that sense, resides in the poem as a "score" reawakened in its possibilities each time. If we hardened it into a concrete poem-score with notation, as with music and as many poets have suggested at various times, we should be choosing more exactly what ground music to apply, as best as possible, to any individual performance of the poem. That might be interesting. But I think part of the magic of poetry -- and its difference from music -- is that the score (or ground music, or neutral music) is recreated in slightly different form at each reading, hovering under the voice so to speak. Poetry is, therefore, easier to perform really badly than music is, for at least a clumsy musician is trying to hit the right notes. The definiteness and pedantry in my tone is only because I want to be clear about what I realise are mostly just complicated personal beliefs backed up somewhat by the fragility of a supposed empiricism -- more, an impressionistic use of quasi-scientific procedures. I find these matters really difficult. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:03:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Enjambed by brigands Comments: To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At 10/10/98 16:09:50, Bob Grumman wrote: # Ron Silliman wrote: # > # > The question of the articulated linebreak never quite goes away. We have # > extremes -- Duncan actually counting to three between each line in his # > readings of Passages in 1970, the inaudible ones that Pinsky argues for -- # > and a million possible middle positions. I tend to side with Grumman here -- # > if there's no point to a linebreak, why break it? If there is a point, # > shouldn't it be sounded? But in practice in my readings I vary, sometimes # > being very strict about voicing them, then other times quite the opposite. # > It seems to me one of the decisions that turns the printed text literally # > into a score that may be performed. # > # > Ron That's interesting. I've tried 2 beats on the line break, and 3 between verses. I like the 3-beat pause, but I couldn't get over the fact that I was pausing where there was no overt pause - but that an emphasis on the last word before the line-break served to emphasize the line-break. Works for me. # Yes, I would certainly agree that in performing a poem (even if only to # oneself when silently reading it), there are times to disregard the # line-break as a place to pause. Also times TO pause in the middle of # lines that aren't indicated in any overt way at all in the poem. This is my biggest failing in performance. Also, adrenalin pushes puases, compresses, speeds up, flows. I guess I'm agreeing with everything said here :) Roger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:15:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: wordspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not well versed in letterpress, but my typesetting experience (1979-91) leads me to a 'thin' as the space between words, an 'en' at 2/3rds and an 'em' as the full size of a cap M in the relevant type size and face. Kerning is the shaving off (physically in letterpress, electronically nowadays) of the metal that holds the lettershape, so that the next letter can be shoved closer. The distance between VA for example on the grid of your screen or on the grid of letter press will look too gappy. So the metal setting of one letter (or both) is shaved off to enable them to be shoved together. Justification means putting enough thins, ens and ems between words (or even between letters) to spread the word out to the full extent of the line. I have never heard of a 'just', or a 'kern', and don't expect to again! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:17:29 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nada Gordon Subject: Re: textuality on a t-shirt In-Reply-To: <361D0DDF.5D7F9A2@bayarea.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My friend bought a T-shirt in L.A. which reads Shoot the quotidian with the pistol of language Did someone notable say that? Nada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:59:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Comments: To: Duane.Davis@gte.net In-Reply-To: <004801bdf57f$3e850a80$98bffed0@default> from "Duane Davis" at Oct 11, 98 07:25:48 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Duane, I must say I felt light as a feather, unpredictable as the weather, in my response, and as for being priggish, congratulations, your the first person every to accuse me of such (can one be both priggish and "unclear"? I thought clarity and priggishness were the best of friends). As for my theme song, I've always been more of a "it's *your* party and I'll *crash* if I want to" kind of guy. Playfully peeved was really the tone I was hoping to strike - peeved (playfully, remember) more than anything else, at the way you prefaced your original statement, "As I have no ear for jazz, I find Adorno quite useful..." - we should all listen harder to what we have no ear for. -m. According to Duane Davis: > > Michael, Dude, lighten up... > > You seem to have missed the point here: I wrote that I found Adorno on jazz > to be "useful" -- which is not the same thing as "praise." How "useful" > Adorno is in "tweaking the noses of the high minded" is wonderfully evident > in your priggish response... > > Let me, briefly, set out in a somewhat clearer form the point you were > trying to make: What makes Adorno's essay on jazz bad is indeed its lack of > specificity. Adorno has not defined his subject nor deigned to narrow or > limit its scope. Thus, what appear to be some trenchant comments on a > particular musical form are lost in this lack of focus. As I pointed out in > my own message, this essay employs a kind of cookie cutter approach: > Adorno's comments here are not all that different from comments he made > regarding other cultural productions, but, in this case, Michael, you appear > to disagree with him while elsewhere you "appreciate his many positive > efforts." Its dawning on me that a better theme song for you than a Duke > Ellington number might be Leslie Gore's "It's My Party And I'll Cry If I > want To." > > Duane > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Magee > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Sunday, October 11, 1998 6:13 AM > Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz > > > >Duane, this is tripe. Would you ever give *any* literary critic props for > >arguing that *some* poetry is bad/bad news. This is essentially what your > >praise of Adorno amounts to: like a stroke of lightening at midnight he > >has discovered that some jazz is bad. Well, no shit. But as cultural > >critics there's a special imperative on us not to drown in our own > >ill-informed generalizations, thus adding fuel to the fire of criticism > >that we put cart before horse & don't usually know whereof we speak. The > >truth is, Adorno just dropped the ball here (now I'm really mixing > >metaphors at a furious pace) and we should be able to appreciate his many > >positive efforts w/out holding his drunk ass up at this particular party. > > > >-m. > > > > > >According to Duane Davis: > > >> As I have no ear for jazz I find Adorno quite useful for tweaking the > noses > >> of the high minded: > >> > >> "Yet none of this alters the fact that jazz has in its essence remained > >> static, nor does it explain the resulting enigma that millions of people > >> seem never to tire of its monotonous attraction." > >> > >> "The range of the permissible in jazz is as narrowly circumscribed as in > any > >> particular cut of clothes." > >> > >> "Anyone who allows the growing respectability of mass culture to seduce > him > >> into equating a popular song with modern art because of a few false notes > >> squeaked by a clarinet; anyone who mistakes a triad studded with 'dirty > >> notes' for atonality, has already capitulated to barbarism." > >> > >> "In the process of integrating the asocial, jazz converges with the > equally > >> standardized schemas of the detective novel and its offshoots, which > >> regularly distort or unmask the world so that asociality and crime become > >> the everyday norm, but which at the same time charm away the seductive > and > >> ominous challenge through the inevitable triumph of order." > >> > >> Adorno, "Perennial Fashion--Jazz" in PRISMS > >> > >> Is this the final word on jazz? Of course not. Have Adorno's words in > fact > >> had any appreciable influence on jazz? Again, of course not. Is he > right > >> about some aspects of jazz and jazz listeners? Oh yes, quite right. > I've > >> owned a record store for twenty years and have listened to a fair amount > of > >> jazz and jazz talk: some of it stimulating, some of it fatuous. The > >> danger, and the beauty as well, of this essay is that you can substitute > for > >> "jazz" most any identifiable style of music, monkey with a few of the > >> definitions and pronouncements, and come up with something suitable to > piss > >> just about anyone off. > >> > >> Duane Davis > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:44:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Formal Strategy of Text (apologies to E A Poe) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Formal Strategy of Text So in order to construct a "sondheim-text" or "real/virtual" text, one might proceed as follows, beginning with (real/virtual) entities A and B: Given these constructs* (cultural or natural, defined or discovered, meta- phoric or metonymic) with determined affinities belonging to a set S, con- sider a second set C and D, with affinities in S'. Ordinarily, one might have a situation in which S and S' are roughly equivalent, in relation to some measure of fuzziness. But let there be foreign elements which are members of S', and lapses in S corresponding to elements of S. Further, note that we are also considering, roughly syntactically, two further elements for both pairs (a total of four in all), that is A(B) and B(A), as well as C(D) and D(C). These _chiasms_ then possess their own attribute sets, call them T and T' and each of these have their subsets - for exam- ple one has A(B) and B(A) both contributory towards T, such that they possess a core or _rope_ R(A(B), B(A)) - the thickness of the chiasm or reversal thus indicated. We can roughly identify R with T, and likewise R' with T'. However, T' is broken, inexact, which is to say that the parallel rope of the chiasm R'(C(D), D(C)) is in disarray, wandering, vagrant. It is this turn which constitutes the strategy of avatars and duals loose or perturbing within the interpenetrated component structures of computer- mediated-communication; and it is this turn which then constitutes the subject and object, strategy and wager, of the real/virtual texts involv- ing multiple persons and avatars. ____________________________________________________________ *Of course the following oppositions or pairs are problematic, the art, such as it is, consists in choosing, first, sufficiently rich A and B, and second, in deciding the domains (pairs) and attributes. It is within these decision that the psychoanalytical and socio-cultural unfoldings occur, more or less set in formal motion. _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: The Frankfurt 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I came across reference in an old discography to a recording by "Ted Adorno and the Frankfut 5." According to my sketchy information this featured Adorno on piano, Max Horkheimer on drums, and the plaintive clarinet of Walt Benjamin on "Sweet Lorraine" and "What did I do to be so black and Blue." No information available on the bass or trumpet. While Horkheimer can swing somewhat, Adorno's playing is rather stiff, as though he couldn't quite get the rhythm down. Anyone have any information on these rare recordings? Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:42:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Call for papers: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" forwarded from Allison Cummings: allisonc@hsc.edu Call for papers: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry What criteria delimit the margins of American poetry today? What is the role of the lyric and narrative in the elliptical, fragmented and disjunctive approach utilized by many contemporary poets. How has Language poetry given way or split off from other "experimental" poetries and how do gender and race figure into those divergence's? How has performance poetry altered, popularized or skirted the "poetry establishment"? What projects have poets undertaken to analyze, bridge, or deconstruct the mutually marginal spheres of "high" and "low" poetry today? We particularly invite papers on poets such as, Rae Armantrout, Lucy Brock-Broido, Anne Carson, Lynn Emanuel, Elaine Equi, Jorie Graham, Barbara Guest, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Susan Howe, Ann Lauterbach, Bernadette Meyer, Jane Miller, Tracie Morris, Harryette Mullen, Alice Notely, Susan Wheeler, and others. This three-day conference sponsored by Women Poets at Barnard will begin on Thursday, April 8 with a poetry reading, and continue through Saturday, April 10. The keynote speaker will be Marjorie Perloff. The conference will feature critical papers as well as additional poetry readings. Papers received by January 5 will receive priority, but papers will be read through January. Papers grouped as panels welcome. Please submit to either Claudia Rankine, English Dept, Barnard College, 3009 Broadway, New York, NY 10027 or Allison Cummings, English Dept, Hampden-Sydney College, Hampden-Sydney, VA 23901. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: "styled" text and the Poetics List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A technical advisory -- The use of "styled" text or HTML formatting in the body of email posts to the list appears not to be compatible with the list's automatic digest program and as result such messages may disrupt the format of the Digest, even though this coding is readable for some subscribers who do not use the digest option. When sending to the list, please send only "plain text". Note, however, there is no problem with sending clickable URLs in HTML format such as this: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: readings at St. Mark's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Upcoming readings this week at the Poetry Project: Monday (Tonight), Oct. 12th at 8 pm: Katy Lederer & Tim Griffin Wednesday, Oct. 14th at 8 pm: Jerome Rothenberg & Robert Grenier, reading to be followed by a = reception/book party for A Secret Location on the Lower East Side, the = accompanying text to the late New York Public Library show last spring. = There will be wine, cheese, crackers, flowers & books. Friday, Oct. 16th at 10:30 pm: A Gathering for the Community Gardens: a group reading with Jeff Wright, = John Wright and more to support the besieged community gardens of NYC. Monday, Oct. 19th at 8 pm: Beth Anderson & Vikas Menon Wednesday, Oct. 21 at 8 pm: Night of de Sade: an evening of readings from the Marquis de Sade by = Diamanda Galas, actress Chloe Webb (Sid & Nancy), actress Lili Taylor (I = Shot Andy Warhol), Edwin Torres, & Marge Suti, accompanied by music = dj-ed by Eric Mingus (son of Charles) & Karen Mantler (daughter of Carla = Bley & Mantler). The whole thing is produced by Hal Willner (Lost in the = Stars-the Music of Kurt Weill, Allen Ginsberg's Holy Soul Jelly Roll) so = should be a blast.=20 Tickets are $15, $12 students, $10 members. Check out the new Announcements page on the Poetry Project web-site page = for late-breaking news, events, gossip & some beginning-of-the-season = poems by Douglas Rothschild. Call (212) 674-0910 for more info or e-mail the Poetry Project: = poproj@artomatic.com. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:35:32 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Spicer washes lettuce while the infrastructure crumbles In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, thanks, Stephen, for your thoughts on "Thing Language," Spicer's images, that great poem "When you break a line nothing/ Becomes better ..." (!) etc. I think all the readings you suggest are legitimate, & probably realized & considered by Spicer himself. I have only one question, which is, okay, with respect to the idea that the ocean in this poem (the first poem in _Language_) figures "as an image of formlessness or chaos" ... it feels like that, but okay, even more, to me: I think of Thales, & wonder if this is water/liquid as primary in some way. There's that line (I didn't bring _Language_ to work with me today) a little later in the book "My house is in Aquarius" ... etc., etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:51:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Clay Subject: Rothenberg/Grenier/A Secret Location on the Lower East Side Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wednesday October 14, 1998, 8:00 PM Jerome Rothenberg and Robert Grenier will be reading at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. (2nd Ave. and 10th St. NYC) The reading will be followed (also at the Church) by a publication party for A SECRET LOCATION ON THE LOWER EAST SIDE: ADVENTURES IN WRITING 1960-1980: A SOURCEBOOK OF INFORMATION by Steve Clay and Rodney Phillips with a Pre-Face by Jerome Rothenberg. This book documents the exhibit (with 2/3 of the same title) at the New York Public Library earlier this year. Over 80 presses and magazines, at the confluence of the New American Poetry and the Small Press Revolution, are described, frequently in the words of the editor(s) involved. Checklists are also provided. Among those included are: J, Open Space, White Rabbit, Oyez, Yugen, Floating Bear, Measure, Semina, Beatitude, Black Mountain Review, Origin, Poems from the Floating World, Some/thing, Maps, Matter, Set, Something Else Press, Duende, Wild Dog, Umbra, Hambone, White Dove Review, C, Fuck You, Living Hand, Angel Hair, Big Sky, The World, Z, United Artists, Center, 0 to 9, Lines, Adventures in Poetry, Siamese Banana, Dodgems, Vehicle, Telephone, Mag City, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, Joglars, This, Tottel's, Hills, The Figures, Roof, Sun & Moon and Tuumba. The book runs to 340 pages and is illustrated with over 200 black and white photographs. Another 500 presses and magazines are catalogued in an appendix; there's also an extensive index, a 50 page introduction by Clay and Phillips and a gate-fold pull-out literary chronology of the 1950-1980 period. The book is published by Granary Books and the New York Public Library. Paperback is $24.95; cloth with dust jacket is $44.95. The book will be showing up in "better" bookstores fairly soon, it'll also be available from SPD or the publishers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:55:42 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: The Frankfurt 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > > I came across reference in an old discography to a recording by "Ted > Adorno and the Frankfut 5." According to my sketchy information this > featured Adorno on piano, Max Horkheimer on drums, and the plaintive > clarinet of Walt Benjamin on "Sweet Lorraine" and "What did I do to be so > black and Blue." No information available on the bass or trumpet. While > Horkheimer can swing somewhat, Adorno's playing is rather stiff, as though > he couldn't quite get the rhythm down. > > Anyone have any information on these rare recordings? > > Jonathan Jonathan. I actually own a copy of that old 78. I bought it at a yard sale at Whittaker Chambers' house in the 1966. Your info is generally accurate--Adorno on piano, Horkheimer on drums and Benjamin on clarinet. Benjamin's playing is highly original though I hear Sidney Bechet's influence. The quintet is rounded out by none other than Herbert Marcuse on trumpet and a youthful Jurgen Habermas on base. Its a live gig, rare for those days and takes place in the Hollywood Hills at the same house in which Art Tatum made his famous recordings. The groups real name was the School for Social Research Five but Adorno's playing was so far ahead of its time that the producers of the recording, Fugitive Records, changed the band's name. I disagree with your assessment of Adorno's playing. He sounds like Lenny Tristano decades before the great west coast pianist made the scene. This may account for the stiffness rap. His rhythmic 'dialectic' with his drummer, Horkheimer, is inspired if not 'enlightened'. The group disbanded shortly after this gig, apparently for financial reasons, and this may explain some of Adorno's bitterness toward jazz and the American listening public in general.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:00:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Call for papers: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry In-Reply-To: <199810121502.LAA28028@nico.bway.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Two questions about the forthcoming conference on Innovation and Experimentation: (1) Are we now at the stage where Jorie Graham, Brenda Hillman, and Lucy Brock-Broido are considered experimental writers? What, overnight? (2) Why doesn't the title of the conference refer to women? Separatism is not only the rule these days but also provides an opportunity for writers who are only tangential to experimentation to be studied as what they are not. -Paul Hoover ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:17:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: The Frankfurt 5 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > I came across reference in an old discography to a recording by "Ted > Adorno and the Frankfut 5." According to my sketchy information this > featured Adorno on piano, Max Horkheimer on drums, and the plaintive > clarinet of Walt Benjamin on "Sweet Lorraine" and "What did I do to be so > black and Blue." No information available on the bass or trumpet. While > Horkheimer can swing somewhat, Adorno's playing is rather stiff, as though > he couldn't quite get the rhythm down. > > Anyone have any information on these rare recordings? Jonathan, on my way to buy a new shoelace (having given up on used shoelaces) last Tuesday I found three pretty beat-up 78s in The Final Vinyl on the commons. THe first was pretty cool: Lacan and the Frequent Polysyllables (with Harry Belafonte), featuring their soul-chilling cover of "The Frankfurt School Is Dead & Gone So Get Over It" (originally written by Zoe Stope of The Smalls). But you'll be most interested to learn I ALSO ran across "Adorno Adorno and the Frankfurt 5" and that it was in fact Merton on bass. TM actually wrote the second to last piece, "Addicted to the Passe." But you were right not to mention Adorno Adorno's foozled performance in the aesthetically perfidious "My Thought is Dated as the Glockenspiel," played on an outsized ocarina. THe poor guy. Anyway, the 78's worth about two bucks: you'd do better to just excise (sample) a few of his two dollar phrases and sell them piecemeal. Gabe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: The Frankfurt 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Merton on base?! This is an obviously uninformed &/or fraudulant remark. It reminds me of a statemant I overheard in my bookstore just yesterday. A gentleman leaned over to his wife and said: "Most of these books are over ten years old; they're out of date."---Carlo Parcelli Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > > > I came across reference in an old discography to a recording by "Ted > > Adorno and the Frankfut 5." According to my sketchy information this > > featured Adorno on piano, Max Horkheimer on drums, and the plaintive > > clarinet of Walt Benjamin on "Sweet Lorraine" and "What did I do to be so > > black and Blue." No information available on the bass or trumpet. While > > Horkheimer can swing somewhat, Adorno's playing is rather stiff, as though > > he couldn't quite get the rhythm down. > > > > Anyone have any information on these rare recordings? > > Jonathan, on my way to buy a new shoelace (having given up on used > shoelaces) last Tuesday I found three pretty beat-up 78s in The Final > Vinyl on the commons. > > THe first was pretty cool: Lacan and the Frequent Polysyllables (with > Harry Belafonte), featuring their soul-chilling cover of "The Frankfurt > School Is Dead & Gone So Get Over It" (originally written by Zoe Stope of > The Smalls). But you'll be most interested to learn I ALSO ran across > "Adorno Adorno and the Frankfurt 5" and that it was in fact Merton on > bass. TM actually wrote the second to last piece, "Addicted to the > Passe." But you were right not to mention Adorno Adorno's foozled > performance in the aesthetically perfidious "My Thought is Dated as the > Glockenspiel," played on an outsized ocarina. THe poor guy. Anyway, the > 78's worth about two bucks: you'd do better to just excise (sample) a few > of his two dollar phrases and sell them piecemeal. > > Gabe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Jack Collom in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain To anyone on the List in Chicago - This is rather late notice but... Jack Collom (of Naropa and parts elsewhere) will be in Chicago over Halloween weekend and is looking for a reading venue. Any help or suggestions would be most welcome. Please backchannel me. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: line breaks Comments: To: Dale Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ed Sanders' piece _is_ useful, Dale, and wonderful, besides. It can be found - with much else that is wonderful - in _Disembodied Poetics_ edited by Anne Waldman & Andrew Schelling, Univ of NM Press. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:41:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit To Eliz Treadwell and other interested parties: The "Laura (Riding) Jackson and the Promise of Language" conference at Cornell, on Oct. 8-9 was edifying, provocative, stimulating, enjoyable, and, quite frankly, somewhat bizarre. The scholarly panels were, I thought, excellent, and the Cornell librarians had prepared fine displays, catalogues, and talks for us visitors. What struck me most keenly, however, was the sharp divide between the scholars (who approached (Riding) Jackson's work with ambivalent fascination, for the most part) and the members of the L(R)J estate and inner circle, who approached her and her work with what Jeanne Heuving described as "a posture of worship." And so Alan Clark, from the estate, spoke of "our Laura" as showing us "what it means to be a human being" and apologized more than once for "falling down from the Laura level" by quoting such as Whitehead, or for speaking as himself. He asked forgiveness for "all this appreciativeness" and reported that he himself had not read any poetry for over 25 years since LRJ had explained to him the great fault with that genre. Mark Jacobs claimed that LRJ was "the greatest poet of the 20th century" who showed us "where all the others went wrong" and can only really be considered alongside Shakespeare. The introduction to Elizabeth Friedmann's (the official biographer's) presentation mentioned that LRJ had "planted a kiss" on EF, which had sealed their friendship. Friedmann and the other Laura-ites asserted over and again that LRJ's critics write "grotesque parodies" of her, that she is "scorned and despised," that she, in Clark's words, "attracts covert meanness" (which Bernstein contrasted to "overt meanness"). The result of this split between scholarly and worshipful attention was a fascinating discussion at the end of the conference about the way in which to attract more attention to LRJ's work, a desire shared by everyone in attendance. Jeanne Heuving, Carla Billitieri, Charles Bernstein, Barrett Watten and others were most eloquent in telling the board that they could not expect universal reverence--that attention was, in fact, more likely based on difference than on utter acceptance of her thinking. Suggestions were made to the board and to LRJ's publisher, Michael Braziller, on how to disseminate her work more widely (Braziller claims that her collected poems--now out of print--would sell 250 copies a year forever and ever, but no more), including the idea of packaging her poetry and prose in a single reader, since the poetry sells better than the prose. (This last fact doubtless bothers the board, which takes LRJ's renunciation of poetry so seriously that participants in the conference were informed beforehand that any material published on LRJ's work must include reference to that renunciation.) A few other participants in the conference said that they've experienced this split between skepticism and reverence before at conferences devoted to a single author, but I must say this felt like a baptism (religious and by fire!) for me. Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Gottlieb/Cartelli @ Zinc Bar (fwrd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listers: Michael Gottlieb and Donna Cartelli will be reading in NYC at The Zinc Bar on Sunday, October 18th at 6:30 PM. The Zinc Bar is located at 90 West Houston St.(just west of La Guardia Place). Please come. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson In-Reply-To: <93f6bc9b.36225b6a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Speaking of L(R)J, I hear that there is a negative assessment (review) of her by "Our" Marjorie Perloff in the latest Parnassus--- is this true? Does anybody "possess" it? ----cs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:28:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gottlieb/Cartelli @ Zinc Bar (fwrd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit relation to tom? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:10:14 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: The Frankfurt 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mayhew may not have picked up on the Habermas and Marcuse because there is actually a limited release tribute out album floating around out there, performed by the downtown NY crowd. The album has the same title as the original Frankfurt 5 release, but is popularly known among Knitting Factory afficianadoes as "News for Adorno." The album features "deconstructed" performances (though most agree that deconstruction is a suspect & non-kosher term when applied to knitting factory jazz) of the original Horkheimer and Adorno scores. The album's uniqueness comes from producers Zorn and Gadamers decision to exclude all trumpet and bass lines, and drums on all but three tracks. Zorn claims says the new instrumentation draws our attention to the "surprising, often haunting lyrical" lines of Adorno and Benjermain. "Everyone who has tried to copy these cats in the past has focused exclusively on the grundwerk. We wanted to do something different." Purists find the new anti-foundationalist approach frustrating, and frankly, even I find it difficult to follow the twisted ironies at the bottom of this american appropriation of a european appropriation of an american idiom. No one, however, thought of the album as anything other than "mildly interesting," however, until Jurgen "Hand Lotion" Habermas published a letter revealing how enraged the album made him. He took the recording as a direct snub to Marcuse and his contributions. "Everyone agreed I was the key. Bass was the basis. That's what they used to say. Now. . . what is this? How can people dance to it if it hasn't got a beat?" Bringing up the bad blood between himself and Gadamer (Gadamer's absconding with his fiancee in the Paris concert of 72, "and about a half pound of hash besides"), Jergen raised quite a stir. To this day, however, Zorn still suggests that the conflicts were blown way out of proportion. "They really have always had a deep appreciation for each others work, in spite of everything." Zorn was upset by Jergen's letter, because he never intended to upset Jergan. "I was a great fan of Old Lotion," Zorn admitts. "He was one of my idols when I was young." Zorn hopes that the album, even with its limited release, has helped to draw some new attention and fans to the original music of F5, "including Jergen and Marcuse of course." (Rumor also has it that Zorn later made a concillatory gesture to Jergen by offering him the bass spot for a new project: the punk-hip-hop-klzermer revial band BLOODSUCKER". The band was to feature Bay Area turn table wizard Avitall Ronnell and screaming trance lyricist Diamanda Galas. To date, however, I have heard nothing on Jergen's reply or what happened to this project.) > MAYHEW wrote: > > > > I came across reference in an old discography to a recording by "Ted > > > Adorno and the Frankfut 5." According to my sketchy information > this > > featured Adorno on piano, Max Horkheimer on drums, and the plaintive > > > clarinet of Walt Benjamin on "Sweet Lorraine" and "What did I do to > be so > > black and Blue." No information available on the bass or trumpet. > While > > Horkheimer can swing somewhat, Adorno's playing is rather stiff, as > though > > he couldn't quite get the rhythm down. > > > > Anyone have any information on these rare recordings? > > > > Jonathan > Jonathan. I actually own a copy of that old 78. I bought it at a yard > sale at Whittaker Chambers' house in the 1966. Your info is generally > accurate--Adorno on piano, Horkheimer on drums and Benjamin on > clarinet. > Benjamin's playing is highly original though I hear Sidney Bechet's > influence. The quintet is rounded out by none other than Herbert > Marcuse > on trumpet and a youthful Jurgen Habermas on base. Its a live gig, > rare > for those days and takes place in the Hollywood Hills at the same > house > in which Art Tatum made his famous recordings. The groups real name > was > the School for Social Research Five but Adorno's playing was so far > ahead of its time that the producers of the recording, Fugitive > Records, > changed the band's name. I disagree with your assessment of Adorno's > playing. He sounds like Lenny Tristano decades before the great west > coast pianist made the scene. This may account for the stiffness rap. > His rhythmic 'dialectic' with his drummer, Horkheimer, is inspired if > not 'enlightened'. The group disbanded shortly after this gig, > apparently for financial reasons, and this may explain some of > Adorno's > bitterness toward jazz and the American listening public in > general.---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:48:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: <199810121359.JAA32728@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify Adorno's position on jazz. Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's overall analysis of classical music. His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno found interesting. As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in music. Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and vice versa), right? Bests, Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:04:24 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herb Levy wrote: > > I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed > responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to > enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level > of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify > Adorno's position on jazz. > > Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to > counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture > having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up > with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno > very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with > jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with > the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. > > There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If > Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or > whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically > wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's > overall analysis of classical music. > > His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of > harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's > twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. > While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms > of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly > equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe > Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno > found interesting. > > As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the > exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music > approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically > modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest > Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually > every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was > entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in > music. > > Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no > amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or > may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic > issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an > irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share > intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and > vice versa), right? > > Bests, > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com Nicely done.---C. Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:21:15 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Herb Levy's post on this issue is thoughtful and should be commended for the light it sheds on this issue; I do wonder about phrases like "below his radar" and "funny noises" and "his primary art form." I guess if it's put into terms of "what's interesting to him" you have to leave the issue alone. HE's not into rhythmic complexity, improvisation, etc... But the issue, for me, is not that he didn't find jazz progressive or compelling (who cares if he did?) but the high-handed arrogance of his critique, its aprioritism and dogmatism. I might have friends who disagree with me, but I try to avoid condemning things I don't understand and expect the same of my friends if they are to remain such. I enjoyed Susan's post about "Lauralotry" in the Riding (Jackson) conference. Reminds me of a song I could hum for you in another medium "Laura / but she's only a dream" etc... Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, this reminds me a little of the problem of dealing with Pound and his much graver 'sin' of anti-semitism which, of course, transcends questions of mere taste or cultural exegesis. Do you throw the Canto's out because of their and his ugly association? Adorno was not a bigot. That Adorno would not be moved on the jazz 'score', even if you supplied jazz pieces that fit Herb's/Adorno's theoretical criteria, Adorno would never have altered his postion. I covered all of this in earlier posts. And as I stated in my earlier posts, I'm willing to accept Adorno at face value and I find continuing value in much that he has done.---Carlo Parcelli Herb Levy wrote: > > I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed > responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to > enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level > of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify > Adorno's position on jazz. > > Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to > counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture > having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up > with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno > very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with > jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with > the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. > > There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If > Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or > whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically > wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's > overall analysis of classical music. > > His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of > harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's > twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. > While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms > of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly > equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe > Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno > found interesting. > > As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the > exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music > approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically > modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest > Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually > every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was > entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in > music. > > Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no > amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or > may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic > issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an > irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share > intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and > vice versa), right? > > Bests, > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 00:44:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Writers Forum announces the publication of the two latest pamphlets in the series Domestic Ambient Noise. Cobbing, Bob & Upton, Lawrence; Trans Mission; ISBN 0 86162 833 0; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus p & p Upton, Lawrence & Cobbing, Bob; Daffy sees the light; ISBN 0 86162 834 9; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus p & p Send orders, and enquiries with return postage, to New River Project, Downstairs 89a Petherton Road, London N5 8QT Apologies for unavoidable cross-posting ____________________________________________________________ Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:18:07 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Lawrence Subject: Blumenthal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" what's Michael Blumenthal up to these days, poetry-wise? best Anthony ************************************** Anthony Lawrence Po Box 75 Sandy Bay Tasmania 7006 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:56:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Melanie Bookout Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Comments: To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com In-Reply-To: <36229210.2B99@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well done. To you both. M. Bookout At 07:34 PM 10/12/98 -0400, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote: >Actually, this reminds me a little of the problem of dealing with Pound >and his much graver 'sin' of anti-semitism which, of course, transcends >questions of mere taste or cultural exegesis. Do you throw the Canto's >out because of their and his ugly association? >Adorno was not a bigot. That Adorno would not be moved on the jazz >'score', even if you supplied jazz pieces that fit Herb's/Adorno's >theoretical criteria, Adorno would never have altered his postion. I >covered all of this in earlier posts. And as I stated in my earlier >posts, I'm willing to accept Adorno at face value and I find continuing >value in much that he has done.---Carlo Parcelli >Herb Levy wrote: >> >> I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed >> responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to >> enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level >> of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify >> Adorno's position on jazz. >> >> Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to >> counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture >> having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up >> with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno >> very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with >> jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with >> the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. >> >> There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If >> Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or >> whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically >> wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's >> overall analysis of classical music. >> >> His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of >> harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's >> twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. >> While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms >> of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly >> equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe >> Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno >> found interesting. >> >> As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the >> exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music >> approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically >> modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest >> Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually >> every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was >> entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in >> music. >> >> Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no >> amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or >> may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic >> issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an >> irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share >> intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and >> vice versa), right? >> >> Bests, >> >> Herb Levy >> herb@eskimo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:01:49 -0600 Reply-To: Duane Davis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duane Davis Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quite true and, as one would expect from "our" Marjorie, quite well done: there are a number of glancing blows to the poetry but in the main the attack is directed at the post-poetry L(R)J and her desire for a language of one to one relations... This issue of Parnassus also includes a grumpy assessment by Ross Feld of the various vices and minor, in his opinion, virtues of Perloff's Wittgenstein's Ladder... In the same essay Feld beats up pretty hard on Rothenberg's Poems For The Millennium but saves his roundhouse punches for Bernstein's A Poetics. Reading it over rather quickly it appears to be the same old same old and I can't imagine any minds being changed on one side or the other: Feld shows he is reasonably well read, can come up with an interesting reference/quote when the need arises and knows how to make sure this issue of Parnassus is the required twelve pages longer than it would have been without him. Duane Davis -----Original Message----- From: louis stroffolino To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 2:33 PM Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson > Speaking of L(R)J, > I hear that there is a negative assessment (review) > of her by "Our" Marjorie Perloff in the latest Parnassus--- > is this true? Does anybody "possess" it? > ----cs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:06:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: "our" laura (riding) jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit susan has the scoop on the recent l(r)j conference. that split between Board Members and academics-who-sometimes-write-on-laura reminded me of how the charismatic christians i used to know felt when they were in a group of savvy non-believers. pained and baffled. it would have been more touching if The Board wasn't in charge of estate materials. like susan, this was my first single-author conference experience, though i've heard of them in the past. but since the Board was feeling all the overboard commitment to laura, it made everyone else, i think, able to be pretty skeptical about any author's claims to interpretive priority over their work as well as to claims of non-comparability. and as susan said, amidst this strangeness there were good papers: steven meyer on stein-riding correspondence, susan's own challenge to charles b's anti-introduction/response to =rational meaing=, barry watten's readings of riding's negativities, carla billiteri's pointing out riding's "controlled dialogue" in =progress of stories=. and more. it was the kind of gathering that made me think of why people say the things they say about authors and their works, the metaphors they find to explain them, the matters they find key. that made it interesting. lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: See Jennifer Run (fwd short version) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - See Jennifer Run BREATHING JENNIFER in antique Netscape version .96 beta, bones and chiasm across time and protocol, special re-edit. Consider space as constituted encryption; read Jennifer breathing. See Jennifer breath. See Jennifer run. "JENNIFER FALLS APART." ============================ BREATHING JENNIFER function zz() {document.bgColor="black"} JENNIFER-BODIES AND THEIR CHARACTERISTICS Jennifer1 = new Jennifer("female ", "inhale ", "spurt", "cut ", "your_voice "); Jennifer2 = new Jennifer("male ", "exhale ", "spurt", "suture ", "your_voice "); {document.bgColor="black"; document.write("My panties on the ground are wet with elements and planets.") } // THE CONCEALMENT OF LOVELIES AND HIDDEN DOCTRINE if (j == 9) {document.write(Jennifer9.milk + Jennifer4.suture_and_surgery + " " + "JENNIFER INHALES" + " ")} else {document.write(" " + "JENNIFER EXHALES" + " ")} if (j % 3 == 0) {document.write(" " + "JENNIFER FALLS APART" + " ")} JENNIFER YOU JENNIFER JENNIFER _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 01:19:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: "our" laura (riding) jackson In-Reply-To: <3622DFD7.4876@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Susan has A scoop on the l(r)j conference, as does Lisa, and as do "I" (for my part I have too many scoops to go into anykind of 'review' here---I had a lot of great conversations, met alot of interesting people, many of whom were not necessarily of either of the camps of which l and s speak, and was more intellectually stimulated than i had been in some time...) I may be taken as an apologist for the "other" (board member) camp (though i enjoyed lisa, carla b's, etc. papers, and the way barry watten pronounced "the great much") but if i may claim interpretive priority concerning my own "stance" i do not think such is the case, even if i argue that i don't think i'm any more (to quote lisa s.) "skeptical about any author's claims of interpretive priority over their work as well as to claims of non-comparability" than i am of writers who claim to absolutely deny such claims, and be professed champions of the aleatory. As for non-comparability, I guess I think of Bloom's statement that instead of Freudian readings of Shakespeare there should be Shakespearean readings of Freud, and if I were to apply that comment to the question of L(R)J, I would perhaps "occupy" a "position" (or a reading of riding's "intent"--which is not absolutely singular, though it seems to be at times) that would allow for comparability, or at least comparisons with other writers, but instead of say Watten's Zizekian reading of Riding one would have a Ridingian (oh no, I'm "ding donging") reading of Zizek, for instance. I think Riding was far more critical of those who SUBORDINATED poetry to theoretical grids than those who would compare her thought and writing to others. She herself compares her thought to others, if all comparison is also contrast, whether explicit or not. --------cs On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, Lisa Samuels wrote: > susan has the scoop on the recent l(r)j conference. that split > between Board Members and academics-who-sometimes-write-on-laura > reminded me of how the charismatic christians i used to know felt when > they were in a group of savvy non-believers. pained and baffled. it > would have been more touching if The Board wasn't in charge of estate > materials. > like susan, this was my first single-author conference experience, > though i've heard of them in the past. but since the Board was feeling > all the overboard commitment to laura, it made everyone else, i think, > able to be pretty skeptical about any author's claims to interpretive > priority over their work as well as to claims of non-comparability. > and as susan said, amidst this strangeness there were good papers: > steven meyer on stein-riding correspondence, susan's own challenge to > charles b's anti-introduction/response to =rational meaing=, barry > watten's readings of riding's negativities, carla billiteri's pointing > out riding's "controlled dialogue" in =progress of stories=. and more. > it was the kind of gathering that made me think of why people say the > things they say about authors and their works, the metaphors they find > to explain them, the matters they find key. that made it interesting. > > lisa samuels > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:27:26 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: word breaks Content-Type: text/plain Isn't the term pica? It's often used in the plural though, as a measurement of the space. Or is there another term? Mark DuCharme >is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >letterpress? > >bill(x)marsh > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - >William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:46:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: The Frankfurt Funf--on trumpet : Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My resarch, Jonathan Mayhew, indicates that one Herb Marcus was on trumpet. My source was difficult to read--the paper had yellowed and the type begun to disintegrate--but it looks like the bass-player was Rick Froh or From. db3. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:03:07 -0700 Reply-To: mperloff@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Laura Riding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to Chris: quite true, I did write a pretty negative piece on LR for PARNASSUS; the response on the List shows me that this is not a mag people on this list read, which may be just as well given the Ross Feld piece and some other nasties in this issue. I took the opportunity because Herb Leibowitz, the editor, asked me to think about Riding and I never really had. I spent a lot of time on the work and must say I am totally mystified as to what anyone sees in her. I hate feeling that way, given that some of my very favorite poets and critics--including Charles Bernstein, Jerry McGann, and Susan Schultz admire LR but they haven't (at least in print) made me see it. I can't stand her abstract stilted language; more important: I have a really hard time with her ideas and her poetics! I can see that she is a phenomenon, but.... So to me the whole idea of a Riding conference sounds bizarre--but it may be my blindness. Charles B makes a valiant case for her in the Intro to her RATIONAL MEANING. xxx Marjorie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 04:21:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: ground base Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss helpfully points out that I was using the technical term "ground base" wrongly when talking about the evanescent concept of "neutral tune". It was muddling to have used it so impressionistically. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 03:39:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Spicer washes lettuce while the infrastructure crumbles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have only one question, which is, >>okay, with respect to the idea that the ocean in this poem (the first poem >>in _Language_) figures "as an image of formlessness or chaos" ... it feels >>like that, but okay, even more, to me: I think of Thales, & wonder if this >>is water/liquid as primary in some way. There's that line (I didn't bring >>_Language_ to work with me today) a little later in the book "My house is in >>Aquarius" ... etc., etc. > Gary, I imagine that Spicer would've been aware of Duncan's use of water/flood in this primary sense (i.e. birth trauma etc.), but I don't know about it's being substratic in Thales's sense. If we were to speak of pre-Socratics, I'd mention Anaximinder and his "apeiron" as more along Spicer's lines, as Thales's water is that out of which everything is constituted, whereas "apeiron" is that from which everything comes, but from which it is also (importantly) distinct. I'm really speculating here, though, and would wonder if Spicer ever makes mention as Duncan, for instance, does) of pre-Socraticism in any such manner, or for that matter of the Babylonian/Egyptian roots of, what, 'aquamorphism'? Actually, however, I wonder also what might happen in a reading of Spicer that deals with ocean and radio as sympathetic tropes (radio signal as that which is cast forth, like seaweed, from out of nowhere a la Cocteau). There seems a sense of ocean as primal static, a sort of undifferentiated semantic noise from which language (_Language_) is formed. I suppose if the static is conceived of as _accompanying_ the messages, then it does become substratic...? Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:33:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: from "Herb Levy" at Oct 12, 98 03:48:01 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for this Herb. It sets the terms a lot more clearly than my piqued responses. I'd simply add two things: 1) Ornette Coleman has a very sophisticated approach to improvised music which involves "a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches." You're right to say that Adorno wouldn't have given a shit but plenty of Schoenberg-inspired classical musicians and composers *did* give a shit and that suggests that Adorno's appreciation wasn't a mere impossibility. 2) To say "Rhythmic complexity didn't interest Adorno" is to suugest that we can remain somehow in the world of Adorno's purely aesthetic predilections, which of course we can't; certainly Adorno would never have let us get away w/ such claims to purely aesthetic, which is to say apolitical, motives. And while he wasn't a bigot per se, can such a west-centric philosophy/aesthetic completely avoid the charge of bigotry? I think that's worth considering. -m. According to Herb Levy: > > I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed > responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to > enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level > of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify > Adorno's position on jazz. > > Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to > counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture > having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up > with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno > very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with > jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with > the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. > > There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If > Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or > whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically > wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's > overall analysis of classical music. > > His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of > harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's > twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. > While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms > of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly > equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe > Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno > found interesting. > > As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the > exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music > approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically > modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest > Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually > every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was > entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in > music. > > Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no > amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or > may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic > issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an > irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share > intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and > vice versa), right? > > Bests, > > > > Herb Levy > herb@eskimo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: word breaks In-Reply-To: <19981013052726.7124.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No -- pica IS a measurement of space, and a constant one. But a pica is far wider than word-spacing in 12-point type. Why won't "wordspace" do just fine? charles At 10:27 PM 10/12/98 PDT, you wrote: >Isn't the term pica? It's often used in the plural though, as a >measurement of the space. Or is there another term? > >Mark DuCharme > > >>is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >>words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >>letterpress? >> >>bill(x)marsh >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - >>- - - - >>William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - >>- - - - >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:04:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan, Thank you for the report!! How and where does Laura (R) J denounce poetry? Anyone have an exact quote? Has anyone read The Word Woman?? I think its compelling and important. And does this have to do w/ Perloff's blows to L(R)J's "search for a one on one correspondance"? I find L(R)J's critique of R. Graves' The White Goddess quite INTERESTIN'. Duane-- could you quote the glancing blow M. Perloff gibes to the poetry of L(R)J? Is the publisher under constraint of the Estate not to publish the poetry? 250 cc per year seems great, right? naively, perchance, Elizabeth Treadwell Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:18:13 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your right Michael. Adorno's position vis a vis jazz was Euro-centric. But even admirers and sympathizers such as Stravinsky, Bartok, Hindemith, Varese and Berio remain Eurocentric in their compositions. If someone claimed to have shaken that in the course of say one lifetime you could suspect them of being a phony. Read Adorno on Odysseus and the Sirens in Dialectic of Enlightenment and you'll get the full flavor of A.'s sympathy for the working man. But Adorno was, first, an intellectual and his critiques do not rise to empathy. Still people like me appreciaite his insights for what they are: non ego-centric attempts to address unjust conditions. Adorno's method was complex and for me, as a resolute modernist, this suggests a rigor that carefully investigates each statement that he works into his critical edifice. As for the real danger of Euro-centrism; every Columbus Day my wife the infamous R.[osalie] Gancie toys with putting a sign in the window of our store that reads: "Just because it's Columbus Day, don't take anything that doesn't belong to you." That's the Euro-centrism that Adorno struggled against. That Adorno couldn't see jazz as part of that struggle---well. Maybe, we should beat up on that timid mediocrity Philip Larkin for a while; poetry's owm Rudi Blesh. Michael Magee wrote: > > Thanks for this Herb. It sets the terms a lot more clearly than my piqued > responses. I'd simply add two things: 1) Ornette Coleman has a very > sophisticated approach to improvised music which involves "a functionally > aharmonic method of organizing pitches." You're right to say that Adorno > wouldn't have given a shit but plenty of Schoenberg-inspired classical > musicians and composers *did* give a shit and that suggests that Adorno's > appreciation wasn't a mere impossibility. 2) To say "Rhythmic complexity > didn't interest Adorno" is to suugest that we can remain somehow in the > world of Adorno's purely aesthetic predilections, which of course we > can't; certainly Adorno would never have let us get away w/ such claims to > purely aesthetic, which is to say apolitical, motives. And while he > wasn't a bigot per se, can such a west-centric philosophy/aesthetic > completely avoid the charge of bigotry? I think that's worth considering. > > -m. > > According to Herb Levy: > > > I've been in & out of town enough in the last month to have missed > > responding to the early stages of this thread. I'm a little hesitant to > > enter into a "discussion" that seems to be rapidly descending to the level > > of ad hominem attacks, but I have a few things to say that might clarify > > Adorno's position on jazz. > > > > Adorno's critique of jazz has several roots. It's now relatively easy to > > counter, or at least to call into question, his analyses of popular culture > > having little or no political efficacy. (&, while it's easy to come up > > with these counter arguments, it's hard to imagine that they'd sway Adorno > > very far from his stance.) But that's just a part of Adorno's problem with > > jazz. The critique that's far more difficult to deal with has to do with > > the kind of musical complexity that was useful & important to him. > > > > There've been one or two folks who said things along the lines of "If > > Adorno had heard Charlie Parker or John Coltrane or Cecil Taylor (or > > whoever), he would have thought differently about jazz." This is basically > > wishful thinking that can be easily dismissed by looking at Adorno's > > overall analysis of classical music. > > > > His sense of what's important there is based on a historical model of > > harmonic complexity increasing until it's finally replaced by Schoenberg's > > twelve-tone system, a functionally aharmonic method of organizing pitches. > > While bebop is more complex harmonically than most pre-WWII jazz, in terms > > of classical music history, this increase in complexity is roughly > > equivalent to a move from Mozart's harmonic world to say, Brahms' or maybe > > Wagner's. In other words, it's still far below the radar of what Adorno > > found interesting. > > > > As to the later avant garde jazz, there are similar problems. With the > > exception of a few third stream pieces, very little of this music > > approaches what he was interested in, much of this work is harmonically > > modal as that term is used in jazz. Rhythmic complexity didn't interest > > Adorno, timbral innovations (funny noises) didn't interest him. Virtually > > every defining characteristic of modernist and avant garde jazz was > > entirely irrelevant to Adorno's understanding of what was progressive in > > music. > > > > Adorno was a hardliner on this, music was his own primary artform, and no > > amount of fudging on what he might of thought of various artists he may or > > may not have ever heard, can alter where he drew the line on this aesthetic > > issue. If you have a problem with it, you just have to consider it an > > irreconciliable difference. Surely you all know people with whom you share > > intellectual interests but with whom you have aesthetic differences (and > > vice versa), right? > > > > Bests, > > > > > > > > Herb Levy > > herb@eskimo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:50:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: line breaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I found Douglas Oliver's thoughts quite interesting, but also somewhat confusing. He speaks of line breaks as though they could be "sensed" during a performance. But if you believe that poetry is a sonic art form, then line breaks (and hence, lines themselves) are just a notational convenience, meant to clarify, visually, the rhythm of the work. You might hear the rhymes and guess that that is where the breaks fall, but that would just mean you're familiar with printers' conventions. Might not a given poem be lineated (that is, printed) in different ways, to call attention to different aspects of the rhythm? But such differences should not affect the sound of the poem when read aloud, or at least, not very much. In general, I don't see how _variations_ in "performance" can be very useful guides when describing a poem's rhythm. They may help to reveal how different people articulate sounds, or their assumptions about poetic recitation, but do they really say anything about the poem in itself? And are actual variations all that great, even though machines may detect them? There will always be differences in performance--how could there not be? I think the idea of a "neutral music" diverts attention from the patterns of sound inhering in a poem--which I find difficult enough to understand. Andrew Rathmann -------------- Chicago Review 5801 S. Kenwood Ave. Chicago IL 60637-1794 ph/fax 773.702.0887 e-mail org_crev@orgmail.uchicago.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Binary start forums Comments: To: MAYHEW In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All HL meant by saying that music was TA's "primary artform" is, that TA was trained as a musician and composer....Which he was. Nothing more sinister than that, i think, is intended by the phrase. mellifluously, mark p. On Mon, 12 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > Herb Levy's post on this issue is thoughtful and should be commended for > the light it sheds on this issue; I do wonder about phrases like "below > his radar" and "funny noises" and "his primary art form." I guess if it's > put into terms of "what's interesting to him" you have to leave the issue > alone. HE's not into rhythmic complexity, improvisation, etc... > > But the issue, for me, is not that he didn't find jazz progressive or > compelling (who cares if he did?) but the high-handed arrogance of his > critique, its aprioritism and dogmatism. I might have friends who disagree > with me, but I try to avoid condemning things I don't understand and > expect the same of my friends if they are to remain such. > > I enjoyed Susan's post about "Lauralotry" in the Riding (Jackson) > conference. Reminds me of a song I could hum for you in another medium > "Laura / but she's only a dream" etc... > > > Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:56:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII earlier Duane Davis wrote: "In the same essay Feld beats up pretty hard on Rothenberg's Poems For The Millennium but saves his roundhouse punches for Bernstein's A Poetics. Reading it over rather quickly it appears to be the same old same old and I can't imagine any minds being changed on one side or the other...." ----------------------------------------------------------- I actually found Feld pretty plucky. What Feld specifically says about Bernstein follows: 1). "...Charles Bernstein, a sort of Clement Greenberg of the Language poets..." 2). "Bernstein is well-informed, jargony, willful, and impossibly self-important." 3). "(Reading him is like having Max Beerbohm's Enoch Soames rematerialize across the years.)" 4). "His essayistic style can be eerily like that of a corporate annual report's...." 5). "It was the novelist Dawn Powell who in her journals once noted that the avant-garde are usually would-be academics who, without enough wind in their sails, usually end up as stuffed shirts...." 6). I don't know about number 3, but I actually laughed in a delighted way at 4 & 5. Number 6 has sort of left me pale though. Risibly, GG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:13:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: from "Gabriel Gudding" at Oct 13, 98 11:56:09 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Gabriel Gudding: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > I actually found Feld pretty plucky. What Feld specifically says about > Bernstein follows: > > 5). "It was the novelist Dawn Powell who in her journals once noted that > the avant-garde are usually would-be academics who, without enough wind in > their sails, usually end up as stuffed shirts...." > > I actually laughed in a delighted > way at 4 & 5. > > Risibly, GG > This is cute but does it have any historical accuracy whatsoever? As regards the American avant-garde, was Stein or Williams or Olson or O'Hara or for that matter Rauschenberg, Pollock, Warhol, Cage, MacLow, a "would-be academic" - this just seems to me to be a lie that traditionalists like to tell themselves, for comfort's sake. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:16:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Sexual preference in non-discrimination policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A group of faculty members here at Highland Community College (in Freeport, Illinois) is interested in having our school add "sexual preference" to its non-discrimination statement and we wish to organize a campaign (it will take such to succeed in these conservative environs) toward that end. It would be helpful for us to know the names of some colleges that have full and unqualified non-discrimination policies. Anyone out there have any experience with a similar campaign? Posts to the list on this or backchannel would be appreciated. Thanks. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:40:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: <199810131333.JAA93330@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Magee wrote: >Thanks for this Herb. It sets the terms a lot more clearly than my piqued >responses. I'd simply add two things: 1) Ornette Coleman has a very >sophisticated approach to improvised music which involves "a functionally >aharmonic method of organizing pitches." You're right to say that Adorno >wouldn't have given a shit but plenty of Schoenberg-inspired classical >musicians and composers *did* give a shit and that suggests that Adorno's >appreciation wasn't a mere impossibility. Few people were as hardline as Adorno on the issue of serial music, but I see your point. (Though I hear Coleman's Harmolodics more as a powerful & beautiful, re-interpretation of harmony as a system rather than a denial of it.) >2) To say "Rhythmic complexity >didn't interest Adorno" is to suugest that we can remain somehow in the >world of Adorno's purely aesthetic predilections, which of course we >can't; certainly Adorno would never have let us get away w/ such claims to >purely aesthetic, which is to say apolitical, motives. And while he >wasn't a bigot per se, can such a west-centric philosophy/aesthetic >completely avoid the charge of bigotry? I think that's worth considering. I used this phrase to reinforce Adorno's notion of the primacy of twelve-tone music as a progressive force both politically & aesthetically (I can't see Adorno separating the two either). I'd use the term elitist, rather than bigot, but maybe that's just me. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:42:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jonathan Mayhew writes: >Herb Levy's post on this issue is thoughtful and should be commended for >the light it sheds on this issue; I do wonder about phrases like "below >his radar" and "funny noises" and "his primary art form." I guess if it's >put into terms of "what's interesting to him" you have to leave the issue >alone. HE's not into rhythmic complexity, improvisation, etc... > >But the issue, for me, is not that he didn't find jazz progressive or >compelling (who cares if he did?) but the high-handed arrogance of his >critique, its aprioritism and dogmatism. I might have friends who disagree >with me, but I try to avoid condemning things I don't understand and >expect the same of my friends if they are to remain such. I don't care if you agree with him or not (& I don't), but I think to reduce the problems with Adorno's complex, nearly apocalyptic vision of how to fix what's wrong with contemporary culture to whether he's being considerate of the opinions of others is, at best, an odd reading of Adorno, given his overall project. Adorno was was an elitist, he was a fanatic, & he was trying to save the world. Taste is exactly not the issue for him, he didn't care what music you liked. Adorno knew that ANY music rooted in harmonic structures was evil (regardless of any potentially mitigating social, political, economic, or aesthetic issues about the music), just another step along the path of the repressive culture industry to totalitarianism. He'd seen it happen in Europe once, he desperately wanted to stop it from happening ever again. It's not that he wasn't distinguishing clearly enough between sappy, mechanical pop music, and beautiful, self-expressive jazz. The problem for him was that they were functionally the same - another nail in civilization's coffin. In his later essay on jazz, he calls bebop something like "good bad music" - he knew it was "better" than earlier jazz, but he knew equally well that it hadn't transcended its reactionary stylistic flaws, it was still harmonically organized, functionally tonal music. & no matter how big or "advanced" the chords were, no matter how complex the music over the modal drone was, no matter how dissonant it was, it still wasn't twelve-tone music and so was just as bad, in an absolute moral sense, as well as a political & aesthetic sense, as the Andrews Sisters. From his point of view, Adorno wasn't talking about something he didn't understand. He KNEW the progressive value of serial music & he KNEW the totalitarian nature of music with roots in traditional harmonic structures. He knew that anyone buying into the wrong kind of art, the wrong kind of culture, became a pawn of the regressive bourgeois culture industry. He didn't care about insulting your taste, from his point of view what you think of as "your" taste is more often than not simply a symptom of a repressive political/economic/social structure that must be stopped at all costs. He has no room for cultural relativism or being a nice guy - he's trying to save the world through atonal music. Basing "your" taste on what you like rather than what will save the world is just one more small step toward cultural suicide. Look, there's no denying that Adorno was at best unenlightened about all this, but he was trained as a composer of classical music in Europe before WWII. Folks with intense classical training often live in a musical bubble. I've heard some classically trained musicians complain about classical Indian musicians not playing in tune, when that music is based on probably the most complex system of tuning in the world. Many folks with strict classical training (even to this day) have little or no understanding about how jazz works. (Which is why almost every "classical" work "inspired" by "jazz" is musically clueless, but perhaps that's a secondary issue here). Combining this deep-rooted attitude with a tendency toward Stalinism & you get a complex picture that's not so pretty. Is Adorno music's Ezra Pound? I'm not sure I'd go that far, but Adorno had more than a few crazy ideas. As to books from which to get at Adorno's ideas on music, I found Ben Watson's Negative Dialectic of Poodle Play to be deeply flawed by the author's fawning refusal to consider that everything Frank Zappa did/said/thought might not be absolutely brilliant. Probably more difficult for folks with little music background, but more focused on Adorno's concepts (& far less gonzo), are Robert Witkin's Adorno on Music (Routledge) & M Paddison's Adorno's Aesthetic of Music (Cambridge U Press). For other pop culture related uses of Frankfurt aesthetics, Dick Hebdige's book on punk, Subculture: the Meaning of Style, is absolutely great & Simon Frith (Fred Frith's brother) has a book that's very good, but I'll need to check the reference on that. But these two draw little from Adorno, & more from the other Frankfurters. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:49:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: oaks & dull axes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If this is what the inert mainstream is gonna throw at interesting poets to discredit 'em, i must say we needn't exacly cower in our foxholes. I remember more substantive and interesting taunts from 3rd grade. Apparently pluck just ain't what it used to be.... mark On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > earlier Duane Davis wrote: > > "In the same essay Feld beats up pretty hard on > Rothenberg's Poems For The Millennium but saves his roundhouse punches for > Bernstein's A Poetics. Reading it over rather quickly it appears to be the > same old same old and I can't imagine any minds being changed on one side or > the other...." > ----------------------------------------------------------- > I actually found Feld pretty plucky. What Feld specifically says about > Bernstein follows: > > 1). "...Charles Bernstein, a sort of Clement Greenberg of the Language > poets..." > > 2). "Bernstein is well-informed, jargony, willful, and impossibly > self-important." > > 3). "(Reading him is like having Max Beerbohm's Enoch Soames rematerialize > across the years.)" > > 4). "His essayistic style can be eerily like that of a corporate annual > report's...." > > 5). "It was the novelist Dawn Powell who in her journals once noted that > the avant-garde are usually would-be academics who, without enough wind in > their sails, usually end up as stuffed shirts...." > > 6). I don't know about number 3, but I actually laughed in a delighted > way at 4 & 5. Number 6 has sort of left me pale though. > > Risibly, GG > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Laura Riding In-Reply-To: <362395D9.3254@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In response to Chris: quite true, I did write a pretty negative piece > on LR for PARNASSUS; the response on the List shows me that this is not > a mag people on this list read, which may be just as well given the Ross > Feld piece and some other nasties in this issue. Such as your piece on Laura Riding? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Sexual preference in non-discrimination policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KENT JOHNSON wrote: Kent, My college publishes the following Affirmative Action and Compliance Statement in its catalogue: Middlesex County College is firmly committed to a policy of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative action. The College will implement this policy to assure that the educational programs, activities, services, benefits and employment opportunities offered by the College are available to all persona regardless of race, color, national or ethnic origin, ancestry, age, religion, sex, affectional or sexual orientation, marital statue, veteran status or disability in accordance with applicable State and Federal laws. Inquiries regarding compliance may be directed to the Affirmative Action Office, Middlesex County College, Academic Services Building, Edison, New Jersey, 08818-3050. Address Middlesex County College 2600 Woodbridge Avenue P.O. Bx 3050 Edison, NJ 08818-3050 http://www,middlesex.cc.nj.us -- Dan Zimmerman Associate Prof. of English Raritan Hall 234 MCC http://idt.net/~daniel7 > A group of faculty members here at Highland Community College (in > Freeport, Illinois) is interested in having our school add "sexual > preference" to its non-discrimination statement and we wish to > organize a campaign (it will take such to succeed in these > conservative environs) toward that end. > > It would be helpful for us to know the names of some colleges that > have full and unqualified non-discrimination policies. Anyone out > there have any experience with a similar campaign? > > Posts to the list on this or backchannel would be appreciated. > Thanks. > > Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:56:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:50:55 -0500 from Is it possible that "neutral music" is simply the sound of language per se: the result of the processes in which we break down the range of human sounds into components (syllables) and then string them out in words and phrases? - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:10:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: textuality on a t-shirt/the quotidian Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nada Gordon wrote: Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:17:29 +0900 From: Nada Gordon Subject: Re: textuality on a t-shirt My friend bought a T-shirt in L.A. which reads Shoot the quotidian with the pistol of language Did someone notable say that? Nada I don't know who said it but they should be ashamed, threatening the quotidian like that. What did the quotidian ever do to them? Best, PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:23:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think that's what Doug's talking about. If I read him rightly, it's like when I read one of my poems to an audience or any poem that I've read before in private or also aloud to others the text on the page acts as score, and I'm very clear as to what it says the music is and have this firmly in mind, even when my performance of it varys from strict reproduction. I react to, dance with, bounce off of, the score. The poem on the page is the beat, say, but the rhythm, which varies, is the reading. This is precisely what happens in the performance of music, what makes it so exciting, why I go to many performances and have several recordings of some pieces. Another way to put this: the poem on the page doesn't, can't, notate the full range of possible soundings because written language as notation has its limitations. What the poem does is circumscribe those possibles--define a set of possibilities more limited than "the sound of language per se." That still leaves a lot to the choice of the moment. At 12:56 PM 10/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >Is it possible that "neutral music" is simply the sound of language per se: >the result of the processes in which we break down the range of human sounds >into components (syllables) and then string them out in words and phrases? >- Henry G. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:27:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:23:13 -0700 from On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:23:13 -0700 Mark Weiss said: > >Another way to put this: the poem on the page doesn't, can't, notate the >full range of possible soundings because written language as notation has >its limitations. What the poem does is circumscribe those possibles--define >a set of possibilities more limited than "the sound of language per se." >That still leaves a lot to the choice of the moment. But isn't that what writing is. Doesn't writing notate the "ground bass" of what language is : a codification of sound. That's what I meant by the "sound of language per se". So when Doug O. hears the "neutral music" of the score he is hearing the "code" itself beneath the variations of performance. - HG > >At 12:56 PM 10/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >>Is it possible that "neutral music" is simply the sound of language per se: >>the result of the processes in which we break down the range of human sounds >>into components (syllables) and then string them out in words and phrases? >>- Henry G. >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:28:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Monks Pond Comments: To: Gabriel Gudding In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Anyone out there know much about Th. Merton's little magazine, _Monks > Pond_, which ran 4 issues during 1968, the final of which Merton himself > did not live to read? > > I just found an incredible 9x12 facsimile edition of all four issues in > the commons here in Ithaca. Cannot believe the eclecticism of these issues. > > Anselm Hollo, Paul Metcalf, Zukofsky, Jonathan Williams, Simon Perchik, > Kerouac, Russell Edson, Merton hisself, Simic, even Mark Van Doren, Wendell > Berry, Czeslaw Milosz. This is great! (Few women, though: Lorine > Niedecker, Margaret Randall, Lindy Hough, Nancy-Lou Patterson, Dorothy > Beck, Gail Waechter, Sister M. Therese). > > Had anyone seen of it, heard of it, is it famous, infamous, unknown? Even while living in a hermitage, Merton ran with a fairly diverse crowd of poets, as the contributors indicate (not to mention his letters -- I read his letters w/ Milosz not long ago, and while there's not as much about poetry in there as one might expect, they're still interesting). I've seen MP in several good libraries, plus, since my wife teaches at a decent benedictine college, I've even read a couple of the non-facsimiles. But it was an incredibly diverse magazine, while it lasted. Who knows what it would have looked like had Merton not died when he did, had he been able to continue it into the 70s at least. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago ... not being born is the only tragedy that we can imagine but need never fear --Alden Nowlan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:31:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You are making it worse, not better, for Adorno, Herb. He KNEW that harmonic music was evil? That atonal music was the salvation of mankind? Give me a break. If what you say is true, then he was simply a musical fascist. I'd like to give him more credit than that... Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:37:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: EPC Author Page Call, October 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is a REVISED current (October, 1998) version of the EPC Author Page Call for contributions: ============================================= We are asking people to consider contributing to the EPC author page development initiative. We feel there are certain key authors who should have a page at the EPC. Since you may also be working on/reading some of these authors, helping to create their page might be a simple matter, and might be a natural tie-in to ongoing research and/or writing projects. What is an author page? Our basic aim is to create a place where links to resources in various web locations by and about the author might be gathered. (Additionally, if the author would agree to notify me of future web publications of their work, that would also be helpful.) In addition, in an EPC author page, we often seek to make available some new-to-the-web textual and/or visual resources, items specific to the EPC. But this is not necessarily required. The basic components of an EPC author page are: 1. a photo of the author. 2. a cv/list of publications/bibliography and brief bio. (If you are able to scan book covers for the bibliography or works pages, that would be good.) 3. the above-mentioned textual work (and the author's agreement to use their work) i.e., one or more works by the author including if possible, poems or a poem sequence, a prose work/essay, other various genres such as interviews, manifestoes, etc., other statements. Keep in mind that some of these items can also be reprints of out-of-print or small circulation works. Excerpts from forthcoming books are quite desirable since it can often lead to increased sales. Finally, any visual works by the author can add tremendously to the page. significantly. 4. List of links of other works the author may already have on the Web or for work about the author. Be sure to search for the author name through a number of search engines. Also check likely sources (links to some related resources are provided at the top of the EPC author page list of authors) such as PMC, etc. 5. Works about the author. Some of these may result from the Web search in 4 above. In addition, you may wish to query the Poetics list for essays that can be included, contact others who write on the author for materials, or include a piece of your own critical work. It can be very valuable to have at least a couple of works about the author when this is possible. Please make sure you contact us before beginning work on an author page as numerous pages are already in progress. Once you have created the EPC author page, files can be sent as attachments to e-mail (include a list of file names in e-mail message) or mailed on diskette. We can transfer the files via FTP by special arrangement. A template for the author's home page is available at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/template Name the main author page index.html and design the page so that files are reference with relative links and reside in a single directory. An EPC author page does not require *extensive* knowledge of HTML. Indeed, the core activity of such a page is to research, gather and compile materials related to a given author; often this allows you the opportunity to contact and work with someone in whose work you are interested. It is also a valuable form of advocacy for writers who you believe should be read more widely. The main purpose here is to develop a center where people might find out more about these authors. Help us with this collective effort to develop a body of content related to poetry that is available on the Web. A list of suggested authors whose pages currently need to be created or developed follow. Have a look and let us know if you are interested or if you have suggestions. For further details, please contact: Loss Glazier, glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu or Charles Bernstein (bernstei@bway.net) regarding this initiative. ============================================= Rae Armantrout Caroline Bergvall Nicole Brossard Tina Darragh Lydia Davis Deanna Ferguson Fanny Howe Susan Howe Ann Lauterbach Geraldine Monk Wendy Mulford Melanie Neilson Lisa Roberston Leslie Scalapino Fiona Templeton Rosmarie Waldrop Diane Ward Marjorie Welish ============================================= Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:05:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: line breaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not sure that I get your drift--we may be like those ships at night. If you had said "the sound of the language of the poem as written" I would be sure that we agreed. The language of the poem is an idiosyncratic subset of the language as a whole, and its music, both notated and improvised, is a subset of the possible musics of the language. At 01:27 PM 10/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:23:13 -0700 Mark Weiss said: >> >>Another way to put this: the poem on the page doesn't, can't, notate the >>full range of possible soundings because written language as notation has >>its limitations. What the poem does is circumscribe those possibles--define >>a set of possibilities more limited than "the sound of language per se." >>That still leaves a lot to the choice of the moment. > >But isn't that what writing is. Doesn't writing notate the "ground bass" >of what language is : a codification of sound. That's what I meant by >the "sound of language per se". So when Doug O. hears the "neutral music" >of the score he is hearing the "code" itself beneath the variations of >performance. >- HG > >> >>At 12:56 PM 10/13/98 EDT, you wrote: >>>Is it possible that "neutral music" is simply the sound of language per se: >>>the result of the processes in which we break down the range of human sounds >>>into components (syllables) and then string them out in words and phrases? >>>- Henry G. >>> >>> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:17:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Try looking in context. Music and music criticism had been a _political_ battleground since Beethoven. Notable revolutionary warriors included Schumann, Wagner, Mahler and the serialist trio. Riots at concerts were not unusual, and there were pitched battles in the streets and the journals between adherents of different schools of musical thought. By Adorno's time romantic tonality was seen by leftist intellectuals as an anachronistic bourgeois comfort/validator and as such an impediment to revolution. This was not about taste, it was about the future of mankind. That the thinking is reductive is hardly surprising. Few of us take art that seriously any more. At 12:31 PM 10/13/98 -0500, you wrote: >You are making it worse, not better, for Adorno, Herb. He KNEW that >harmonic music was evil? That atonal music was the salvation of mankind? >Give me a break. If what you say is true, then he was simply a musical >fascist. I'd like to give him more credit than that... > > >Jonathan > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:35:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: <199810131613.MAA86288@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Michael Magee wrote: > 98 11:56:09 am@ > > According to Gabriel Gudding: > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > I actually found Feld pretty plucky. What Feld specifically says about > > Bernstein follows: > > > > 5). "It was the novelist Dawn Powell who in her journals once noted that > > the avant-garde are usually would-be academics who, without enough wind in > > their sails, usually end up as stuffed shirts...." > > > > I actually laughed in a delighted > > way at 4 & 5. > > > > Risibly, GG > > > > This is cute but does it have any historical accuracy whatsoever? *). Yes, it is historically accurate: I laughed at precisely ten this morning. ^). I suppose you could say it's therefore "hysterically accurate." %). What does it matter if it's historically accurate? > As > regards the American avant-garde, was Stein or Williams or Olson or O'Hara > or for that matter Rauschenberg, Pollock, Warhol, Cage, MacLow, a > "would-be academic" $). Stein no. Williams no. Olson yes. O'Hara no. Mac Low is not a would-be anything: he's the real Mac Coy. > - this just seems to me to be a lie that > traditionalists like to tell > themselves, for comfort's sake. -m. #). The word "traditionalist" is an epithet many use for comfort's sake. GG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:33:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: "our" laura (riding) jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear chris, i appreciate what you write here, and your (and riding's) claims for poetry (or say 'creative writing') as a literature of knowledge resonate. this is in part what i understood your conference talk to be about. i found the whole thing stimulating as well, but again strangely bifurcated for me because i felt a human sympathy with the Board members, who are clearly walking around bereft, with the roving wound of absent laura within them. as for riding's refusal of comparisons -- well, that refusal intensified, of course, from what i know of her work. which doesn't really have anything to do with why i prefer the earlier period of her work to the later one. lisa s. chris s. wrote, in part -- > I may be taken as an apologist for the "other" (board member) camp > (though i enjoyed lisa, carla b's, etc. papers, > and the way barry watten pronounced "the great much") > but if i may claim interpretive priority concerning my own "stance" > i do not think such is the case, even if i argue that > i don't think i'm any more (to quote lisa s.) "skeptical about any > author's claims of interpretive priority over their work as well > as to claims of non-comparability" than i am of writers who claim > to absolutely deny such claims, and be professed champions of > the aleatory. As for non-comparability, I guess I think of Bloom's > statement that instead of Freudian readings of Shakespeare there > should be Shakespearean readings of Freud, and if I were to apply > that comment to the question of L(R)J, I would perhaps "occupy" > a "position" (or a reading of riding's "intent"--which is not > absolutely singular, though it seems to be at times) that would > allow for comparability, or at least comparisons with other writers, > but instead of say Watten's Zizekian reading of Riding one would > have a Ridingian (oh no, I'm "ding donging") reading of Zizek, > for instance. I think Riding was far more critical of those who > SUBORDINATED poetry to theoretical grids than those who would > compare her thought and writing to others. She herself compares > her thought to others, if all comparison is also contrast, whether > explicit or not. --------cs > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:44:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: from "Gabriel Gudding" at Oct 13, 98 02:35:39 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Gabriel Gudding: > > On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Michael Magee wrote: > GG: > > > 5). "It was the novelist Dawn Powell who in her journals once noted that > > > the avant-garde are usually would-be academics who, without enough wind in > > > their sails, usually end up as stuffed shirts...." > MM: > > This is cute but does it have any historical accuracy whatsoever? -m. > GG: > *). Yes, it is historically accurate: I laughed at precisely ten this > morning. > > ^). I suppose you could say it's therefore "hysterically accurate." > > %). What does it matter if it's historically accurate? > > All I'm asking is, is what this Dawn Powell person said about the avant-garde *true in any way* or is it just the fantasy of "real" academics and non-academics alike that the avant-garde is composed of "would-be academics." So, yeah, it sure as hell does matter whether it's historically accurate, though it might nonetheless make for a good morning chuckle I suppose. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: from "Gabriel Gudding" at Oct 13, 98 02:35:39 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > - this just seems to me to be a lie that > traditionalists like to tell > > themselves, for comfort's sake. -m. > > #). The word "traditionalist" is an epithet many use for comfort's sake. > > GG > Ach! I hate when I'm caught in such easily avoidable ironies, what a pain in the ass. Point well taken. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:49:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Monks Pond Comments: To: David Zauhar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David, he apparently only planned to run four issues and then just quit. "Just four collections. One brief magazine flash in the air and out, but four good collections." Quite an interesting guy. He said he might do six at most, but by the third he'd already stopped soliciting. Refused any big cash, used cheapest paper. Best, G On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, David Zauhar wrote: > On Sun, 11 Oct 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > Anselm Hollo, Paul Metcalf, Zukofsky, Jonathan Williams, Simon Perchik, > > Kerouac, Russell Edson, Merton hisself, Simic, even Mark Van Doren, Wendell > > Berry, Czeslaw Milosz. This is great! (Few women, though: Lorine > > Niedecker, Margaret Randall, Lindy Hough, Nancy-Lou Patterson, Dorothy > > Beck, Gail Waechter, Sister M. Therese). > But it was an incredibly diverse magazine, while it lasted. Who knows what > it would have looked like had Merton not died when he did, had he been > able to continue it into the 70s at least. > > David Zauhar > University of Illinois at Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: <199810131844.OAA25952@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Michael Magee opined: > > ^). I suppose you could say it's therefore "hysterically accurate." > > > > %). What does it matter if it's historically accurate? > > > > > > All I'm asking is, is what this Dawn Powell person said about the > avant-garde *true in any way* or is it just the fantasy of "real" > academics and non-academics alike that the avant-garde is composed of > "would-be academics." So, yeah, it sure as hell does matter whether it's > historically accurate, though it might nonetheless make for a good morning > chuckle I suppose. -m. With the exception of Powell's "usually" I would say of course it's quite true -- it's both historical and hysterical. Seems to me the whole point of the "avant-garde" is that it's "would-be" everything: it's meant to be neither here nor there, while still in a very interesting "somewhere." The academy's been a refuge for many a duck-headed crow. I took FeldPowell to say that 'avant-garde academic' (1) can be oxymoronic and (2) can make a travesty of both the duck and the crow. You might get a guy writing "essays" stuffed with 80s jargon and slinging brackets and dashes like nunchucks. Give me a Vachel Lindsay with his buffo and his Lysol any day of the week. Give me a Arensberg with his up-dada's down-dada's. Give me again the Baroness, please, with her shellacked head and dainty hands. The same hands that clocked WCW. Tell me if _this_ is historically accurate: *: Didn't "avant-garde" -- once upon a tingle -- mean "a bit of fun"? [[my pt with the immediate above is that it's too often too hard to have fun while being respectable.]] GG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:11:12 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Spicer Stiffs Perloff in the Restaurant at the End of the Universe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Stephen, Again, thank you for your thoughts & readings. Okay, as far as > Actually, however, I wonder also what might happen in a reading of Spicer > that deals with ocean and radio as sympathetic tropes (radio > signal as that > which is cast forth, like seaweed, from out of nowhere a la > Cocteau). There > seems a sense of ocean as primal static, a sort of undifferentiated > semantic noise from which language (_Language_) is formed. in "Transformations," we get ... Those Swans we saw in the garden coming out of the water we hated them. "Out of place," you said in passing. Those swans and I (a blink in context), all out of place we hated you. So, what's happening here? For one thing, a reversal takes place, the "we" in the beginning of this hanging-indent stanza isn't the same "we" by the end of it. The first we "hated them"--the swans--the second we includes the swans. The I becomes a pivot. And, at the word "passing," we do pass, from one "we" to the next. But, now, Stephen, how does what you say above work with this image of swans coming out of water & hatred attached to them. Some judgment against them. And, also, judgment on the part of the swans against the others. The first hatred because the swans are seen as "out of place." The second hatred (the swans' hatred) as consequence of being "all out of place." Except, of course, this is Spicer, and when we read "Those swans and/ I (a blink in context), all out of place/ we hated you" it's another one of these great Hericlitean hinge-phrases, where, depending on the kind of emphasis you put & where you put it, the whole meaning changes. So that we can include I and be separate from I. In other words, in the final "we hated you," "we" might be "I and the swans" or "I and the 'you' in the second sentence." Okay, so, I'm not sure if this is what you mean when you say substratic, how the language crystalizes, and then, as you begin to really study it, breaks back down into formless liquid. But, we do get the swans coming out of the water (as far as an image in the poem), and then, more significantly, what happens as we read this thing, I mean, it's a great effect, and of course we end with "We/ Hated them." which is kinda funny since by this time "we" and "them" are everyone involved. And this comes right after the phrase "the last/ swan back in place." So, to be "in place," okay, what does that mean for Spicer? Or for his pronouns? Does it mean liquid? Formlessness? Pre-crystallization? Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:32:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:39 -0400 from On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:22:39 -0400 Gabriel Gudding said: > >*: Didn't "avant-garde" -- once upon a tingle -- mean "a bit of fun"? someplace in P. Burger's "Theory of the Avant-Garde" he refers to a Breton piece of writing (manifEsto?) redefining art as a category of "fun". Is it that avant-gardes are would-be academics or academics are would-be avant-gardes? This is an important question which should have been settled decades ago, and why it hasn't is also an important question, which, while we are on the subject, ALSO should have been settled - decades ago. Decades ago? Decades a go-go. There's the avant-garde, and then there's the historical avant-garde. The historical avant-garde was the truly hysterical avant-garde, while the other avant-garde is truly an other-garde, that is, other than avant-. We are the other, as Rimbaud was, and avant for avant's sake = art for art's sake, which is retrogade for retrograde's sake, and therefore A does not = A, which is quite other, and therefore avant, if not historical. Now to disrupt the traditionalist paradigm of the arts on behalf of a new and liberated society and personal lifestyle is one of the hallmarks of the Hallmark Avant-Garde, which is, of course, other than the traditionalist paradigm, which is to liberate oneself from Hallmarks of every kind by means of a traditional archasmic lifestyle. The archasmic lifestyle, first set in motion by Arthur Rimdude and brought to a complete stop by has half- brother Arthur Rimbaud, is in essence and by definition that which is unrepeatable in any form, a good Benjaminite definition of traditional art, which is, of course, the essence of the dada whatsit and the surrealist thingum. Down with bourgeois concrete! Down with bourgeois wood! Down with bourgeois plastic! Down with "bourgeois" - too hard to spell! Down with aristocracy! Down with money! Down with "down" - too easy to spell! Down, boy! On the "other" hand, you can now purchase, through the good offices of the Univ. of Left Overbie Cash & Other Arts Disbursal Contingency Affiliate Associative Organization [U.L.O.C.O.A.D.C.A.A.O. for short], a complete BRECHT-OR-SET. The Brecht-or-set is a confabulated gameboard of software and softbeans which allows the Reader-Manager to erect a stainless-aluminum 3-dimensional model of Correct People's Theater applicable at any 2-dimensional campus drama program - assembly instructions included! Blow-up models of Barrett Watten, Susan Howe & Charles Bernstein only $5.00 extra! [Feld not included in overseas shipping. backchannel for details.] - Eric Blarnes, O.M.B. [officer of management and budget] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:32:03 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ^How and where does Laura (R) J denounce poetry? Anyone have an exact quote? Chelsea, issue 20/21 its a long quote, or see The Telling, Anthelone Press 1972 also throughout Chelsea 35 such as "When I put away my implements of poetry, I felt for the first time the full difficulty of the linguisitic task of truth. The difference between words as real words, words of a real language, and the imitation-words that crowd the mind I saw to be a far greater one than it had appearedto be under the auspices of my faith in poetry as capable of embodying the very spirit of language." (p69) I have not seen the article referred to, but I would assume Perloff's blows to L(R)J's "search for a one on one correspondance" are about her poetry. I can't imagine how these blows would be any harsher than the shortcomings L(R)J wrote about her own poems and fallacy of poetry in the prose articles and books which followed her renunciation of poetry. The lie of poetry is to cheat the reader as little as possible for the truth which is gained through the use of illusion to create a non-existent stability referrent which points towards the illusion presenting the lie in truth's guise. A well intentioned wolf in sheep's clothing still is. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:09:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herb, I find this fascinating but I'm not following _what_ was evil about harmonic structure. Was it the tie to social and political structures of the past? I suppose I should really go read those books you recommend, but can you elucidate further? (backchannel would be welcome, too, if you want to go into gorey detail) Herb Levy wrote: > Adorno was was an elitist, he was a fanatic, & he was trying to save the > world. Taste is exactly not the issue for him, he didn't care what music > you liked. Adorno knew that ANY music rooted in harmonic structures was > evil (regardless of any potentially mitigating social, political, economic, > or aesthetic issues about the music), just another step along the path of > the repressive culture industry to totalitarianism. He'd seen it happen in > Europe once, he desperately wanted to stop it from happening ever again. > ... > Also, just wanted to say, here, you're absolutely right. My friends with no musical training whatsoever "get" jazz much better than I, a former semi-professional musician, do. Are there similar, bubble-producing situations in the literary world? > Folks with intense classical training often live in a musical > bubble. I've heard some classically trained musicians complain about > classical Indian musicians not playing in tune, when that music is based on > probably the most complex system of tuning in the world. Many folks with > strict classical training (even to this day) have little or no > understanding about how jazz works. (Which is why almost every "classical" > work "inspired" by "jazz" is musically clueless, but perhaps that's a > secondary issue here). Laura W. -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree with me either, and time just kept on passing." (Henri Michaux) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:08:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Ross Feld on Bernstein In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know about respectable, but coherent would help. At 03:22 PM 10/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Michael Magee opined: > >> > ^). I suppose you could say it's therefore "hysterically accurate." >> > >> > %). What does it matter if it's historically accurate? >> > >> > >> >> All I'm asking is, is what this Dawn Powell person said about the >> avant-garde *true in any way* or is it just the fantasy of "real" >> academics and non-academics alike that the avant-garde is composed of >> "would-be academics." So, yeah, it sure as hell does matter whether it's >> historically accurate, though it might nonetheless make for a good morning >> chuckle I suppose. -m. > >With the exception of Powell's "usually" I would say of course it's quite >true -- it's both historical and hysterical. Seems to me the whole point >of the "avant-garde" is that it's "would-be" everything: it's meant to be >neither here nor there, while still in a very interesting "somewhere." >The academy's been a refuge for many a duck-headed crow. I took >FeldPowell to say that 'avant-garde academic' (1) can be oxymoronic and >(2) can make a travesty of both the duck and the crow. You might get a guy >writing "essays" stuffed with 80s jargon and slinging brackets and dashes >like nunchucks. Give me a Vachel Lindsay with his buffo and his Lysol any >day of the week. Give me a Arensberg with his up-dada's down-dada's. >Give me again the Baroness, please, with her shellacked head and dainty >hands. The same hands that clocked WCW. > >Tell me if _this_ is historically accurate: > >*: Didn't "avant-garde" -- once upon a tingle -- mean "a bit of fun"? > >[[my pt with the immediate above is that it's too often too hard to have >fun while being respectable.]] > >GG > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:46:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Call for papers: Innovation and Experimentation in Contemporary American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >(2) Separatism >is not only the rule these days > > >-Paul Hoover > My wife and I have been puzzling over this for hours now -- damn, broke the rule again -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: line breaks inner/exterior rhythms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My sense when I am writing or reading poetry is that there is an internal rhythm that I responding to (trying to anyway) rather than a score out there on the page? tom bell <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: Sexual preference in non-discrimination policies Comments: To: daniel7@IDT.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "orientation" as in daniel zimmerman's language is the key word. If you go with "preference" you are open to debates about protecting a voluntary status. You will hear this debate anyway, but if you go with "orientation" some of the natural law conservatives will be outflanked. I believe American Psychological Association policy statements on homosexuality are also clued to "orientation" rather than "preference." The debate will center on whether or not homosexuality is a preference anyway--don't start by conceding this point. don wellman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: readings/pog Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" pog's poets & artist series kicks off tonight in tucson 7pm dinnerware contemporary art gallery 135 E. Congress St. Tony Lopez / poet Nancy Solomon / video artist _____________________________ the series will continue next month at the same place nov. 17, tuesday 7pm Douglas Barbour & Stephen Scobie (RE: Sounding) and visual/installation artist Barbara Penn ______________________________ on december 5, saturday 7pm orts theater of dance on E. 7th St. in Tucson Eli Goldblatt / poet Helen Mirra / visual artist ______________________________ If you're around Tucson, or might be, and want more information, you can call chax press at 520-620-1626 or email at chax@theriver.com I'll probably repost information closer in time to November and December readings, and will post information on january - april readings as soon as those are confirmed. charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:57:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Bernstein & the Avant-Bored In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981013140833.00a1b370@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > I don't know about respectable, but coherent would help. Well said, Weiss. Which is precisely Henry's point. I only meant that you might get a guy writing "essays" stuffed with 80s jargon and slinging brackets and dashes like nunchucks -- while being simultaneously incoherent AND respectable. This is, I think, the "stuffed shirt" situation recently priggishly decried by a heartfeldt Feld -- a situation entirely WORSE than being either simply respectable or incoherent. When I say Give me a Vachel Lindsay with his buffo and his Lysol, I am referring to the poor man's suicide by quaffing Lysol while being more than half despondent that his experiments were ultimately laughed at. When I say Give me a (can't bring myself to write "an") Arensberg with his and his up-dada's down-dada's, I'm referring to the aforementioned lack of a highly serious and stunningly boring theoretical apparatus during the days of dadaetc. The one unbearable thing about High Modernism was its High Seriousness. The one unbearable thing about the recent Avant Bored is their attachment to a High Seriousness. Such stubborn seriousness is perpetuated in most cases by a virulent refusal to recognize that one is being utterly boring. And utterly cliche. Cliche? That Saussure's theory of language is linguistically useful is entirely beside the point. The point is it's boring. B=O=R=I=N=G Now, as for "stuffed shirts": When I say Give me again the Baroness, please, with her shellacked head and dainty hands, I am being perfectly obvious. These were the same hands that clocked WCW. The Baroness was one of the few who made The Little Review not just a good read but a Great Read. She was a nut: Margaret Anderson decried the obscurantism of the later Little Review and this was one of the reasons Anderson left the LR: The Baroness was not obscure. She was simply incomprehensible. There is a difference. One is not allowed be incomprehensible in academia. One is only allowed be obscure. This is a problem only insofar as incomprehensibility is not boring, whereas obscurantism is. The great Patrick Kavanagh (who certainly wouldn't qualify as "avant garde" but who nevertheless dragged Irish poetry from romanticism) insisted that you could tell a poet easily enough: a poet is not boring. I'd have to say that by this criterion a great many of today's avant-garde poets -- most especially those with heavy theoretical affiliations -- are not poets. As for the "stuffed shirt" syndrome as witnessed on a list ostensibly about avant-garde poetics, I do say that one begins to get the sense that discussing the relevance or irrelevance of Wittgenstein, Adorno, Zizek, etc, will not lead to that BRISANCE one so often wishes for -- and which the avant-garde has so often historically provided. We should all write like Jimmy Durante's face. Very Warmly, Gaga ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 04:38:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: PhillyTalks 6 & 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Available now to superscribers: PhillyTalks #6: Responses to (mostly) PhillyTalks #3 (Derksen/Silliman) & Post-Reading Discussion from their event, Jan. 22, 1998, at Kelly Writers House, Philadelphia PhillyTalks #7: Brian Kim Stefans & Fred Wah They read and discuss issues raised in this newsletter on Nov. 2, 7:30pm, Kelly Writers House, 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia. All welcome. Louis Cabri Ed., PhillyTalks 4331 Pine St., #1R Philadelphia, PA 19104 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:55:53 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Bows/Bios, Arrows/Eros In-Reply-To: <199810140838.EAA64104@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen, I'm sorry to keep like cyberharassing you or whatever, but your input has been really helpful to me. And, I'm not convinced that Spicer doesn't reference the pre-Socratics. That pun in _Language_ on Arrows/Eros, when Kennedy is shot in the back! that seems like a playful rewriting of the Heraclitus fragment about "bios." I mean, it's the same kind of pun & the essential irony is the same, resolves itself similarly. I read that & I'm struck! (Pun intended.) The ghosts of the pre-Socractics are here. Anyway, I'm aware that reading like this, in some way goes against what I get as far as a way of being attentive to (respectful toward?) the poem, as hinted at in "Intermission I": "The movement of the earth brings harmes and fears. Men wonder what it is and what it meant." Donne In the next line Contrasts this with "the celestial movement of the spheres." Rhyme soothes. And in a book I read in college fifteen years ago it said that this was an attack on the Copernican theory and a spidery hand had pencilled in the margin "Earthquake." Where is the poet? A-keeping the sheep A-keeping the celestial movement of the spheres in a long, boring procession A-center of gravity A-(while the earthquakes of happiness go on inside and outside his body and the stars in their courses stop to notice) Sleep. But, still (& more on this poem in a bit). Going back to Thales, Anaximander, & Heraclitus, these ideas of principle & elemental: Let's say that, in that previous Spicer poem quoted yesterday, "in place" maybe has something to do with "law." Law or principle prior to even something so seemingly formless or chaotic as "liquid" (or "fire," to insist on my own pre-Socratic hero). & this I take (tell me if I'm totally confused) to be what you mean by "aporia." Is "aporia" also "law"? I mean, is what happens when something emerges from & becomes distinct from "aporia" an attendance to law? What is "law" in that poem "Transformations"? I mean, because if something has the capacity or tendency to transform, to be transformed, then its nature is . . . what? I don't think it's quite so simple as "boundlessness," necessarily. Because, okay, because the poem takes (as does everything else we can experience take) _specific shape_. And it is the capacity or nature or tendency of things to _persist_. (". . . all things steered through all things"--Heraclitus.) (or "It is wise, listening not to me but to the Law, to acknowledge that all things are one"--Heraclitus.) Bearing in mind the Heraclitus fragment about sleeping/waking, and read again the poem quoted above. Spicer says the poet is "A- . . . Sleep." & sleep seems to be that state in which we are when we are, as I read the Heraclitus fragment, most individuated, most "specific." And the poem, whatever else it might be, is a specific instance, and it doesn't really matter wherefrom the signals, they've been filtered through the poet (harelipped, cleft-palleted or otherwise). So, while _Language_ does seem saturated with these tropes of "signals," I've read much blander poetry, much more airy poetry, and find, in _Language_, a real attention to these, well, _details_, specific _manifestations_ of signals. Now, I just read last night Kristin Prevallet's "The Reluctant Pixie Poole," in which she says that Helen Adam was "skeptical at [Spicer's] claims to understand magic . . . [was] a demon from hell." Which is pretty brutal, and no doubt had more than a little personal motivation behind the judgment. (Adam was, as Prevallet casts her, somewhat slavishly attendant to Duncan, & was caught, no doubt against her will, in between their fued.) And, frankly, I don't care whether or not Spicer was a magician in any "real" sense. His value to me is as a poet. (Whatever value a poet can have for a cartoonist.) There are too many books & downloaded internet texts on my nighttable. Let me shove them all aside for a moment & concentrate on the poems themselves. Okay. That whole "Love Poems" series. Stephen, this is where I find what's most usuable for myself. Is "love" the law governing those things experienced as individuated beings? Because, wow, look how this section begins: Do the flowers change as I touch your skin? This question, for me, is really essential. That you could ask such a thing. Because, wow, what is Love? he seems to be asking. A kind of energy (signal)? And as negative-sounding as what follows They are merely buttercups. No sign of death in them. They die and you know by their death that it is no longer summer. . . . it's _not_ a refutation of such a thing or energy (or law?) as Love. If Heraclitus sees death in life or life in death (bow = bios), Spicer sees death in love or love in death (eros = arrows). So, okay, how about this: Is Love . . . Life? Are living things governed by the "law" of "Love"? And are these distincions ("love," "life," "death") made merely because we have this thing or capacity or filter called "language"? Up way to early this morning, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Digital Arts and Culture 98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm passing along this message from dac@cmc.uib.no ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- We'd like to invite you to=20 Digital Arts and Culture 98 26. - 28. November 1998 Bergen, Norway http://cmc.uib.no/=20 Sponsored by the SKIKT Program of The Norwegian Research Council and the Cyber/Media/Culture Project at the Dept. of Humanistic Informatics, University of Bergen _________________________________________________________________________ =20 Digital Arts and Culture 98 will provide a forum for the presentation and discussion of theoretical and artistic developments in digital arts, media and cultures. There will be no conference fee, but we may have to charge for certain social events (dinners etc.; plenary lecturerers excepted), depending on the number of attendees. Please register at http://cmc.uib.no/dac before Nov. 1st. ________________________________________________________________________ CONFERENCE PROGRAM: =20 Lars Qvortrup, University of Aalborg The Aesthetics of Interference: From Anthropocentric to Polycentric Self-Observation and the Role of Digital Media Anita Hammer, Norges teknisk-naturvitenskaplige universitet, Trondheim: Role and Theatricality in Virtual Worlds: Extending the theatrical, and investigating thresholds of mythic identity. Terry Harpold: Before the Subject: Some Remarks on the Ethic of New Media=20 Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, Electronic Poetry Center, State University of New York at Buffalo: With Code in Hand: an Inventory & Prospectus for E-Poetics=20 John Cayley: Performances Of Writing In The Age Of Digital Transliteration=20 Jesper Juul, University of Copenhagen: A clash between game and narrative: Interactive fiction Marie-Louise Rinman, Stockholm University. Digital Art and Culture=20 Eduardo Kac Art at the Biological Frontier=20 Martin E. Rosenberg, Kettering University: Chess Rhizome: Mapping metaphor theory onto hypertext theory=20 Martin Engebretsen, H=F8gskolen i Agder: Hypertext-news and the problem of objectivity=20 Markku Eskelinen, independant artist, Finland: Omission impossible: the ergodics of time=20 Aki J=E4rvinen, University of Tampere, Finland: Stories Powered by Cogwheels and Computers J=F8rgen Kirks=E6ther, Norges teknisk-naturvitenskaplige universitet,= Trondheim: The Structure of Video Game Narration Adrian Miles, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology: Cinematic paradigms for hypertext George Maevski & Leonid Borodkin, Moscow State University: Russian Art of the 20th century in Electronic Media Matthew G. Kirschenbaum, University of Virginia: Looking Backward: Visual Culture and Virtual Aesthetics, 1984-1998=20 Abstracts of the presentations are available at our web site (http://cmc.uib.no/dac). _________________________________________________________________________ Contacts and further information: Conference Chair: Espen Aarseth (aarseth@uib.no)=20 Local coordinator: Jill Walker (jill.walker@lili.uib.no) --------------------------------------------------------------- Digital Arts and Culture 98 26th - 28th November 1998, Bergen, Norway http://cmc.uib.no/dac/ dac@cmc.uib.no ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:53:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: Sexual preference in non-discrimination policies In-Reply-To: <321A98006D3@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The University of Maine, the whole state system, has such a policy, though it uses the words "sex and sexual orientation." "Fully inclusive of the diverse populations it serves," etc. Text must be on the Univ. website. Good luck with the campaign. Sylvester At 11:16 AM -0500 10/13/98, KENT JOHNSON wrote: >A group of faculty members here at Highland Community College (in >Freeport, Illinois) is interested in having our school add "sexual >preference" to its non-discrimination statement and we wish to >organize a campaign (it will take such to succeed in these >conservative environs) toward that end. > >It would be helpful for us to know the names of some colleges that >have full and unqualified non-discrimination policies. Anyone out >there have any experience with a similar campaign? > >Posts to the list on this or backchannel would be appreciated. >Thanks. > >Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:58:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: try these experiments 1. Divide all your poetry into "practice work" and "poetry". Keep all your practice work at home - don't show it to anyone - make your will & designate all the practice work for the posthumous recycling bin. 2. Establish extremely rigid, difficult & high standards for your poetry for public consumption. These should include: a) no poetry which you could not recite without embarassment to ANYONE - from Czeslaw Milosz to the families in line at the food pantry; b) no imitations: ie. no vague strings that "sound like" Ashbery or pedantic excoriations of the bad guys that quote obscure historical documents & "sound like" Pound; c) nothing too boring to read to the most acidly clever wit you know; d) nothing too classy to read before a high school audience from the trailer park; e) no poems that start with "from"; f) no poems that will not confuse, bore, and offend your own literary set. 3. Accept the fact that the poetics list is a substitute for reading and writing poetry and "sign off" for at least 3 months. 4. Accept the fact that in a rich materialist consumer glut empire, the concept of "anything goes" in art & poetry, the cult of over-production, is one of the prime examples of conformity all along the literary spectrum, from the fat & bloated "margins" to the complacent "mainstream". As Errol Miller puts it (in his poem in Nedge #6) "here we have hard-hitting poetry and soft judges". Once you have accepted this fact, search for a sustainable poetic economy. 5. Do the following over a period of six months, simultaneously: 1) volunteer at your local homeless shelter & devise an employment program for laid-off workers & high school dropouts involving the production of "people's bicycles"; 2) give away all your extra clothes; 3) learn Spanish and Swedish; 4) stop using the word "aporia"; 5) ride the rails; 6) work on no more than ONE poem. 6. When you return to your "literary" life, do the following simultaneously (absolutely NO shirking): write an article about your "people's bike" industry for your local paper; write an essay on a poet you thought you weren't going to like & still aren't sure if you do; write a letter to your Mom; work on no more than ONE poem per month in your private notebook. - I guarantee if you fulfill these six simple experimental assignments the literary atmosphere will clear & brighten considerably & all will be well & all manner of thing will be well & the inflated & devalued will be deflated & revalued. Amen. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:21:00 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Try this experiment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stop telling us what to do. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:09:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Laura [Riding] Jackson conference question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone, it's Kevin Killian. Thanks to all the people who attended the Laura Riding Jackson conference at Cornell for their reports, which really made me feel as though I were there, it sounds like an amazing event from any perspective. I remember once writing a play in which a mad scientist, yearning to return to the prelapsarian days when people had only one name, devised a doomsday-type machine to destroy all humans with two names, but instead he pressed the wrong button and the only people left alive on earth were those with three names, so the main characters became Olivia Newton-John, Joel-Peter Witkin, Mary Tyler Moore, Tommy Lee Jones, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Jennifer Jason Leigh and Laura [Riding] Jackson who, due to these improved conditions, gave her first poetry reading since 1938, from her front porch in Florida, where all had gathered. Laura Moriarty played this difficult part with all of Riding Jackson's saltiness and pepperiness. Sounds like I should have asked "the Board" for their permission, but what *is* "the Board, can anyone fill me in? Thanks . . . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:09:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Red: Neutral tunes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Andrew Rathbone and Mark Weiss have been making me think some more, and my thanks for that. But Henry Gould on code and neutral music raises complicated questions, which Mark has ably addressed. Pardon my opening simplicities here: 1. English has coded intonations at word level, such as: "breakfast" (US & Brit English, most dialects) higher pitch on "break", which is stressed because this is a double noun -- stress on first noun. This is grammatical (such codes were the basis of the dubious Chomsky-Halle attempt to codify stress). 2. English has other near-codes at phase level: "What are we having for breakfast?" Wh-question, nearly a code but passing fuzzily into pragmatics because questions like speaker-certainty enter into it, affecting intonation. Still, the phrase usually has a fairly constantly falling intonation in which "break" is still higher pitch than "fast". (Certain American dialects -- Buffalo included, I think -- may turn many sentences up at the end to give a peculiar insistence to the speech in general. Let's leave special dialects apart.) 3. If we don't hear the answer and check it with increased stress on "What", "_What_ are you having ..." or if we ask "Are we having breakfast?" (yes/no question), the intonation will probably turn upwards at the end of the sentence and "fast" may then have a higher pitch than "break", though "break" will still carry main stress, via other qualities than pitch. So in points 2 and 3 we have the beginning of a trading (pragmatics) between real situation, attitudes, feelings on the one hand and code on the other, though the usages are so habitual they are almost coded in. 4. A line of really bad poetry, invented to illustrate: In the wild breakfast where's the withered cornflake? Normally (my own neutral tune), I'd read this with a rising pitch on "fast". If I gave "wild" and "where's" huge stress because I thought them very important words, it would change all the note values because my interpretation would have changed -- even the smallest change of interpretation makes some difference to tune. Then, I might read "fast" with slightly falling pitch. 5. The notion of "code" cannot survive the minute nuances of interpretation or the fact that the music you want to give a line as you perform it changes as you pass along. The only notion that makes sense to me is that at every stage of the line when being read, the possibility of a neutral tune underlies the changes that you make to its neutrality. It's a possibility only, an evanescent thing made concrete, determined, slightly changed out of neutrality by every sound you make. Therefore, it cannot be coded in, as it is an ephemera of the moment, yet in fact (since we're all human) may be broadly similar to any good reader's "neutral tune" for that poem -- the differences are often minute, as Andrew Rathbone implies. Code is linguistic. Intonation is sited uneasily between linguistic rule and performance -- and, through its unease, allows in so much of poetry's subtlety. Wyatt writes sexistically: So unwarely was never no man caught With steadfast look upon a goodly face. The pitch on "never" may change from "very high" to "high" to "mid" to "low" according to whether you: a) read normally with some fairly neutral attention to "unwarely" (high "never"); b) unusually stress "So" raising its pitch even more (low pitch for "never"); c) stress "no" (mid-pitch for "never"); d) or unusually stress "never" (very high pitch). But different readers may not follow what I've just said, because of cultural, dialect, or idiolect reasons. Fair enough. It remains that when readers do follow what I've just said, the smallest differences in their interpretations are crystal clear to me because the musical shape of the whole line, as now reinterpreted, falls into shape for me. What they have shown is their departure (for emphasis and stress) from a more orthodox reading (as judged by myself and others), and are in the process of establishing another suggested norm for their own reading. But that norm cannot be trapped -- it flies away even as we listen for it. That's what the "neutral tune" is; it cannot be regarded as a code because codes are repeatable, whereas "neutral tunes" never are repeatable -- exactly, that is. In fact, their ontological status is decidedly dicey! I expect you all want me to be quiet now. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: a lost Rilke translation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_ recovered in Paris, and now this, found by a custodian cleaning out lockers at Santa Monica High School. Eat your heart out, Stephen Mitchell! AUTUMN DAZE George, it's about time. The summer was really gross. Knock me unconscious with my surfboard, and in the porcelain goddess let the girls blow chunks. Roll the last kegs into the entry hall; my parents are in Rio for only two more days, frontload some brewskis and throw another barney into the swimming pool. Who has no Jeep now, will drive him one no more. Who is a dweeb now, will always live at home, will wake, chill, check his e-mail and down the long aisles of the megamall cluelessly stumble, while his zits are growing. David Bromige wrote: > Fall > > Man, where'd the time go? Detroit?. > But summer was really, really great. > > Stand that side of the sundial, will ya? > I want to dig the shadows. > > Robert Duncan's freaking in the meadow. > > Those apples can't get a whole lot riper. > Give em a couple more hot days. > My friends who have the winery are already making the wine. > > It's getting chilly, nights. If you don't have a pad by now, > Too bad. If you're not seeing someone > You're likely stuck that way, they went back to school. > Crack a book yourself. Write in Starbucks. > Go walkabout downtown. [Time passes]. Hey, lookit > the leaves, wind, etc. doing their thing. Rustle rustle. > Contrast and compare yourself. Cool! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: a lost Rilke translation In-Reply-To: <3624D82B.FAE16C92@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nice. But suppose the third line read "and let the girls blow chunks in the porcelain goddess." You get that half-rhyme gross/ goddess, which seems meaningful all by itself, although you lose that nifty inversion. At 09:58 AM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >The original manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_ recovered in >Paris, and now this, found by a custodian cleaning out lockers at Santa >Monica High School. Eat your heart out, Stephen Mitchell! > > > AUTUMN DAZE > > > George, it's about time. The summer was really gross. > Knock me unconscious with my surfboard, > and in the porcelain goddess let the girls blow chunks. > > Roll the last kegs into the entry hall; > my parents are in Rio for only two more days, > frontload some brewskis and throw > another barney into the swimming pool. > > Who has no Jeep now, will drive him one no more. > Who is a dweeb now, will always live at home, > will wake, chill, check his e-mail > and down the long aisles of the megamall > cluelessly stumble, while his zits are growing. > > >David Bromige wrote: > >> Fall >> >> Man, where'd the time go? Detroit?. >> But summer was really, really great. >> >> Stand that side of the sundial, will ya? >> I want to dig the shadows. >> >> Robert Duncan's freaking in the meadow. >> >> Those apples can't get a whole lot riper. >> Give em a couple more hot days. >> My friends who have the winery are already making the wine. >> >> It's getting chilly, nights. If you don't have a pad by now, >> Too bad. If you're not seeing someone >> You're likely stuck that way, they went back to school. >> Crack a book yourself. Write in Starbucks. >> Go walkabout downtown. [Time passes]. Hey, lookit >> the leaves, wind, etc. doing their thing. Rustle rustle. >> Contrast and compare yourself. Cool! > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:05:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Red: Neutral tunes In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:09:38 EDT from Doug, maybe code was the wrong word to use. I'm thinking of something more basic & simple. My question is: if you hear a neutral music or generic quality beneath variations of performance - could it not be that you are hearing what is truly universal & generic to language itself, no matter what the language, what the dialect, etc. You are hearing the rhythm of syllables - the rhythm created when sound is broken into components & reassembled. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Bernstein & the Avant-Bored Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dear gagu, i'm with you on this inasmuch as all authority must be challenged and you challenge in a vigorous charged expression but i'll take this opportunity to reprise my theme 90percent of Whitman's writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, 90percent of Dickinson's writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, 90percent of Ginsberg, Spicer, Whalen, the finest poets you can think of Rumi, Homer, Sappho, 90percent of their writing was boring, we expect too much of poets, ourselves included, when we demand all of their dangling participles be golden turds, if they wrote one pome that boggles, jimmy durante's jimmy durante face, and i were the ferryman, they'd have free passage so much of us is water, how do the extraterrestials tell us apart from puddles billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:14:02 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: "Our" Laura (Riding) Jackson In-Reply-To: <3623807B.A652FA45@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have the same difficulties with Laura as Perloff does--the theory, the poetry, the politics, the person-- I remain unconvinced of her importance, though I am open to arguments in her favor. She (Laura) seems to have adopted the problematic "misunderstood genius" mode associated with other modernist poets, but the problem is she wasn't a genius. She would write long involved letters complaining she had been misrepresented--often to people who had dealt with her sympathetically! It is precisely this sort of "misunderstood" autodidact that inspires cultish devotion. She is a strangely fascinating figure all the same; I've read interesting articles *about* her but not as much of interest *by* her. One idea of hers that did strike me years ago is the complaint that poetry is too much a specialized concern of poets; that in some sense poetry (or the linguistic values it ought to embody) is too important to leave to specialized practioners. If you want a theory of the correspondence between language and truth, there's always Wittgenstein's Tractatus. Or if you want a theory of how poetry gets in the way of truth, read Plato. (Riding) Jackson has always struck me as turgid and amateurish, though I could be wrong (as I usually am.) Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:13:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Red: Neutral tunes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And the ur-voice of our ancestors discovering syntax. At 01:05 PM 10/14/98 EDT, you wrote: >Doug, maybe code was the wrong word to use. I'm thinking of something more >basic & simple. My question is: if you hear a neutral music or generic >quality beneath variations of performance - could it not be that you are >hearing what is truly universal & generic to language itself, no matter >what the language, what the dialect, etc. You are hearing the rhythm of >syllables - the rhythm created when sound is broken into components & >reassembled. - Henry G. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:21:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Laura (Riding) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David-- thanks! I do think its interesting to hear someone denounce something they've devoted themselves to for a long time. Is she quite, though? Elizabeth >"When I put away my implements of poetry, I felt for the first time the >full difficulty of the linguistic task of truth. The difference between >words as real words, words of a real language, and the imitation-words >that crowd the mind I saw to be a far greater one than it had appeared to >be under the auspices of my faith in poetry as capable of embodying the >very spirit of language." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:28:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: Bernstein & the Avant-Bored Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "If something is boring, try it until it's not." -- John Cage (i think...) ...and, boy, talk about boring poetry, Mr. Cage... On Wednesday/14.October.1998 10.11.26am, Billy Little wrote: > > dear gagu, > > i'm with you on this inasmuch as all authority must be challenged and you > challenge in a vigorous charged expression > but i'll take this opportunity to reprise my theme > 90percent of Whitman's writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, 90percent of Dickinson's > writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, > 90percent of Ginsberg, Spicer, Whalen, the finest poets you can think of > Rumi, Homer, Sappho, 90percent of their writing was boring, > we expect too much of poets, ourselves included, when we demand all of > their dangling participles be golden turds, > if they wrote one pome that boggles, jimmy durante's jimmy durante face, > and i were the ferryman, they'd have free passage > > so much of us is water, how do the extraterrestials tell us apart from puddles > > billy little > 4 song st. > nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > > Go ahead and say something true > before the big turd eats You > You can say any last thing in Your poem. > > -Alice Notley > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:38:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: non-discrimination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks to the many helpful posts b-c and on the list regaarding the "non-discrimination" query. Very, very helpful, and so may I say thanks through this instead of thank you twenty plus times. Thank you ! Now we'll see what happens. It's not going to be automatic, and it will be interesting to see the response here. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:40:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hannah J Sassaman Subject: CrossConnect Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, all -- I'm Hannah Sassaman, a student at the University of Pennsylvania and a new member of this listserv. I've been quiet for a couple of days, but now I have something interesting to say -- our next issue of CrossConnect, a premier online and print literary journal, is due for release in a few days. We still could use some good nonfiction pieces to round out the mag. If you have anything lying around, I'd love to take a look at it, and show it to the ed-in-chief of the magazine, David Deifer. Some of you have already submitted and/or been published in the magazine (Mike Magee is a contributing editor!), and I hope you can help us now. Check out last issue's nonfiction and other stuff at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect. Great! Thanks a lot. Hannah Sassaman ***************************************************************************** Hannah Jane Sassaman School Address: Home Address: 4009 Pine St. 42 Framingham Lane Philadelphia, PA 19104 Pittsford, NY 14534 Talk not of wasted affection; affection never was wasted. -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow There is no course of life so weak and sottish as that which is managed by order, method, and discipline. -- Montaigne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:50:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Berenstein & the Avant-Bored Bears In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >"If something is boring, try it until it's not." if john cage said that then john cage has not seen the tv show "full house" nor has he tested his blood/sugar level 4 times a day. these things are boring, boring, boring. what's wrong with boring? granted, being bored is not one of my favorite feelings but what the hell, boring happens. but then when i think about it there is some tension wondering if bob sagat or anyone else in the cast is going to deliver a line that is genuinely funny or genuinely anything other than bad acting. but when that NEVER occurs the tension disappears. and there is a certain tension wondering what the blood/sugar level is going to be this time, but the poking a needle into your finger 4 times a day part wears thin fast. don cheney >From: "tracy s. ruggles" >Subject: Re: Bernstein & the Avant-Bored >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >"If something is boring, try it until it's not." > > -- John Cage > (i think...) > >...and, boy, talk about boring poetry, Mr. Cage... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: "My" Laura Riding Comments: To: MAYHEW In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jonathan-- With your post (as with a number of others) i'm not sure how much you are talking about her *poetry*... I haven't looked at in a while, but my interest in it goes back 18 years or so...i suspect i still find much of it worth some attention; as i recall, it can be weird, startling, wildly ludic, sharply odd and dryly poignent. Much more unexpected and exhilerating, at its best, than the work of her sometime collaborator/lover, Graves. Her play with the sound level of the english tradition of nonsense doggeral can be fascinating. Her work from after she saw the light and turning against poetry, seems to me irrelevant and without interest. But not necessarily the poems. Parenthetically [(())))}}] ...i haven't yet seen the Perloff piece; mark p. On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > I have the same difficulties with Laura as Perloff does--the theory, the > poetry, the politics, the person-- I remain unconvinced of her importance, > though I am open to arguments in her favor. She (Laura) seems to have > adopted the problematic "misunderstood genius" mode associated with other > modernist poets, but the problem is she wasn't a genius. She would write > long involved letters complaining she had been misrepresented--often to > people who had dealt with her sympathetically! It is precisely this sort > of "misunderstood" autodidact that inspires cultish devotion. > > She is a strangely fascinating figure all the same; I've read interesting > articles *about* her but not as much of interest *by* her. One idea of > hers that did strike me years ago is the complaint that poetry is too much > a specialized concern of poets; that in some sense poetry (or the > linguistic values it ought to embody) is too important to leave to > specialized practioners. > > If you want a theory of the correspondence between language and truth, > there's always Wittgenstein's Tractatus. Or if you want a theory of how > poetry gets in the way of truth, read Plato. (Riding) Jackson has always > struck me as turgid and amateurish, though I could be wrong (as I usually > am.) > > > Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:36:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: CrossConnect Magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 14 October l998' Dear Hannah Would you be interested in a prose piece on a recent MoMa show called OBJECTS OF DESIRE? Since you are in Philadelphia, perhaps you have seen my reviews on poetry and art in the Inquirer. Last Sunday, for example, review of PORTRAITS by the art critic Kimmelman. At any rate, perhaps you know my work: a poet, fiction writer (just published a book of short stories called THE RADIANT ABSURDITY OF DESIRE reviewed beautifully in Publishers Weekly of l7 August) and literary and art critic. Sincerely Harriet Zinnes HZinnes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:17:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anastasios Kozaitis Subject: space between words In-Reply-To: <199810140406.AAA05104@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The word is KERNING. Kern \Kern\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Kerned; p. pr. & vb. n. Kerning. ] (Type Founding) To form with a kern. See 2d Kern. kerning The process of reducing the spacing between certain pairs of letters to improve their appearance. When a font is created, each character is given a width that includes some space around it so that the letters don't run into each other when displayed or printed. This can be thought of as an invisible box around each character. Some pairs of characters such as A and V, look better if the boxes overlap slightly, bringing the characters closer together (but still not touching). Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913] Kern \Kern\, n. (Type Founding) A part of the face of a type which projects beyond the body, or shank. Perhaps, we could look at lines breaks of a poem as the kerning of lines. Is it really all for some display purpose? I disagree with what was quoted of Pinsky. In that case, why doesn't he write prose? Let's just string all the lines together and write some prosaic doggerel? God knows, his poem in the NYRB is doggerel. Lines, for me, are breaths. Poetry imposes a slower reading than prose. It takes a bit both physically and intellectually to read through a poem. Where one can scan a page of prose, one cannot scan a page of poetry and think that s/he will get a rich reading from the poem. --AK Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:27:26 PDT From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: word breaks Isn't the term pica? It's often used in the plural though, as a measurement of the space. Or is there another term? Mark DuCharme >is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >letterpress? > >bill(x)marsh > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - >William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - - - > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:26:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas A. Vogler" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to announce the publication of a special double issue of _Quarry West_ devoted to the work of Ron Silliman: RON SILLIMAN and the ALPHABET "E-mail Interview with Ron Silliman" (Thomas C. Marshall and Thomas A. Vogler) "Reading Ketjak" (Ron Silliman) "'Nevermore' than: Form, Content and Gesture in _Ketjak_" (Thomas C. Marshall) "Education, Equality and Ethnography in _The Alphabet_" (Hank Lazer) "Public Poetry: Ron Silliman and the Value of Writing" (Tyrus Miller) "The Labor of Repetition" (Lytle Shaw) "Wild Form" (Ron Silliman) "Reading Silliman Writing" (Thomas A. Vogler) "The Language Poet as Autobiographer" (Marjorie Perloff) "A Possible Course: The Long Poem in the 20th Century" (Ron Silliman) "_The Alphabet_: A Serial Poem: Sequence of publication" I remember a thread on this list awhile back where many people expressed approval of journal issues devoted to the work of a single author, so I hope there will be interest in this attempt to make a critical and interpretive assessment of Ron's work. Members of the list can obtain copies postage free for $15.00 by writing to _Quarry West_, C/O Porter College, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064. Copies also available through SPD. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:34:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: space between words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981014161751.0091a780@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Important to be precise. The Pinsky poem is not technically doggerel. Dogbreath is closer. At 04:17 PM 10/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >The word is KERNING. > >Kern \Kern\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Kerned; p. pr. & vb. n. Kerning. ] (Type >Founding) To form with a kern. See 2d Kern. > >kerning > >The process of reducing the spacing between certain pairs of letters to >improve their appearance. When a font is created, each character is given >a width that includes some space around it so that the letters don't run >into each other when displayed or printed. This can be thought of as an >invisible box around each character. Some pairs of characters such as A >and V, look better if the boxes overlap slightly, bringing the characters >closer together (but still not touching). > >Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913] > >Kern \Kern\, n. (Type Founding) >A part of the face of a type which projects beyond the body, or shank. > > > >Perhaps, we could look at lines breaks of a poem as the kerning of lines. >Is it really all for some display purpose? I disagree with what was quoted >of Pinsky. In that case, why doesn't he write prose? Let's just string >all the lines together and write some prosaic doggerel? God knows, his >poem in the NYRB is doggerel. > >Lines, for me, are breaths. Poetry imposes a slower reading than prose. >It takes a bit both physically and intellectually to read through a poem. >Where one can scan a page of prose, one cannot scan a page of poetry and >think that s/he will get a rich reading from the poem. > >--AK > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:27:26 PDT >From: Mark DuCharme >Subject: Re: word breaks > >Isn't the term pica? It's often used in the plural though, as a >measurement of the space. Or is there another term? > >Mark DuCharme > > >>is there a term, from typesetting or elsewhere, for the space between >>words? -- for that piece of space used between words in traditional >>letterpress? >> >>bill(x)marsh >> >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - >>- - - - >>William Marsh | PBrain | http://bmarsh.dtai.com >>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- - >>- - - - >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:47:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: space between words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981014161751.0091a780@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:17 PM 10/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >The word is KERNING. OK, but this still isn't the space between words. > >Kern \Kern\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Kerned; p. pr. & vb. n. Kerning. ] (Type >Founding) To form with a kern. See 2d Kern. > >kerning > >The process of reducing the spacing between certain pairs of letters to >improve their appearance. >Lines, for me, are breaths. Poetry imposes a slower reading than prose. sometimes, OK -- but have you heard Tom Raworth read? Or Miles Champion? Not that most people would read their work, from the page, as fast as the authors read it -- but it certainly wouldn't be wrong to do so. And I don't know that, just because something is "poetry," it "imposes" anything at all in terms of the reading. charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Bernstein & the Avant-Bored In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Billy Little wrote: > 90percent of Whitman's writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, 90percent of Dickinson's > writing is B-O-R-I-N-G, > 90percent of Ginsberg, Spicer, Whalen, the finest poets you can think of > Rumi, Homer, Sappho, 90percent of their writing was boring, Hey, I take your point, Billy: most work boring. I wouldn't say 90% of Whitman or Dickinson is, though a good bit, yes. (75% Whitman, 45% Dickinson?) My point however isn't about individual poets, but about schools or movements: if there is a PATTERN to the "boringness," that's a problem. It's curious to me that so often the more boring the poet/school, the more theoretically inclined the poet/school is. Call it Gaga's Law. Call it BS. Call it a hunch. Man, if you're going to be boring then JUST DO IT: forget about telling the literary world why you intend to continue to be boring. gg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:50:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: "My" Laura Riding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear jonathan, mark, et al, for me, the two best books of riding's are =progress of stories= (1935) -- her principal, really her sole, collection of short stories -- and =anarchism is not enough= (1928), which i'm happy to say will be reprinted by the univ. of california press by this coming summer (so my editor tells me -- i wrote notes & intro for it). the latter is quite wonderful, in the vein of =guide to kulchur=, =content's dream=, and the like. both are wholly "prose." my favorites of her poems come and go rather than being concentrated in a particular book (leaving aside the =collected=). some work in =love as love, death as death= (1928), and the outrageous blakean =the life of the dead= (1933), some work in =though gently= (1930, a kind of severe =spring and all= mix of prose and poetry), and in =poet: a lying word=, are meaningful to me as efforts toward poetry as intellectual beauty (stressing the first word) and/or a literature of embodied knowledge. hammering at words to break them open, structuring them to build something, concreting abstractions. but i'll stand by the first-mentioned two prose works, any day. not to say they have no competition or context (eg calvino, wittgenstein, bataille). but that's not really to the point, since i presume we want to multiply rather than divide the works we find worth reading about ways of seeing. as for riding's later works, i do find touching some of the heartfelt idealism of =the telling= (even as i find its totalizing unitarianism a bit scary and certainly impossible); but i think =rational meaning= was written by riding's spectre. except when i pretend that it's poetry, too. as for her intrepretive screws -- put to interpreters, that is -- i figure 1/ she had some reasons to feel pissed off, but mostly 2/ she was an intransigent, cranky absolutist who could be very not nice. and isn't it a pretty common trait of 'genius' -- a category i find not terrifically useful, except perhaps in describing someone who has an extremely limited one thing they master and obsess about -- to lack common sense perspective? and finally, she didn't denounce so much as renounce poetry, as people have pointed out in various articles. but she did not repudiate her old work. she wanted the powers of poetry to be absorbed into what she came to see as the genre-less universal language of english prose. i'll shut up now -- i just felt moved to respond to some of these interesting remarks & queries about her work. lisa s. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:53:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hannah J Sassaman Subject: Re: CrossConnect Magazine In-Reply-To: <8d44d869.3624fd27@aol.com> from "Harriet Zinnes" at Oct 14, 98 03:36:07 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah! Send it here. Hannah ***************************************************************************** Hannah Jane Sassaman School Address: Home Address: 4009 Pine St. 42 Framingham Lane Philadelphia, PA 19104 Pittsford, NY 14534 (215)-382-3509 (716)-473-1641 Talk not of wasted affection; affection never was wasted. -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow There is no course of life so weak and sottish as that which is managed by order, method, and discipline. -- Montaigne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:01:24 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: space between words In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981014161751.0091a780@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The controversy abt the correct term for the space between words is perhaps the dullest in poetics list history, though maybe if we go on long enough it will become interesting again, who knows? Close 2nd is discussion of line/breaks. It seems pretty obvious: Pinsky is wrong. In enjambed free verse, you got to put in a pause of however small duration (or mark the break somehow) or why are you breaking the line there? You don't have to breathe or drop the voice or count to ten. Can you imagine saying "as I sd to my (gulp for air) friend because I am always (gulp for air) talking"? Creeley as asthmatic. On the other hand, the fact that there is little agreement about any of this means that the line break is not effective as a convention. I remember a poetry reading by one Philip Levine, who told the audience he split his lines in two when sending poems for the New Yorker, because they paid by the line. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:53:51 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: Re: space between words Content-Type: text/plain since charles.a. is the only nay-sayer, I will lend him support, between words you have wordspace or word space, sorry no fancy term...for some reason there is no need for one, in the movable type days was the space slug just called a blank? (that's what I seem to remember but not clearly) ...b/w letters you have a variety of terms: kerning (as in pair kerning), character spacing (msword6.0), tracking, etc. jamie.p >Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:47:39 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Charles Alexander >Subject: Re: space between words >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >At 04:17 PM 10/14/98 -0400, you wrote: >>The word is KERNING. > >OK, but this still isn't the space between words. > >> >>Kern \Kern\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Kerned; p. pr. & vb. n. Kerning. ] (Type >>Founding) To form with a kern. See 2d Kern. >> >>kerning >> >>The process of reducing the spacing between certain pairs of letters to >>improve their appearance. > >>Lines, for me, are breaths. Poetry imposes a slower reading than prose. > >sometimes, OK -- but have you heard Tom Raworth read? Or Miles Champion? >Not that most people would read their work, from the page, as fast as the >authors read it -- but it certainly wouldn't be wrong to do so. And I don't >know that, just because something is "poetry," it "imposes" anything at all >in terms of the reading. > >charles >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:42:43 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: OUTLAW POETRY Comments: To: Akpoem@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Akpoem@aol.com wrote: > > THE OUTLAW BIBLE OF AMERICAN POETRY > > EDITED BY ALAN KAUFMAN AND S.A.GRIFFIN > who broke what law? (or who--seemingly--didn't?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:16:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: a lost Rilke translation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, I think Biff (my mute inglorious Milton) is the love child of Suzy Creamcheese and Herter Norton, so he wants to retain some of that weird inverted German spine. Rachel Mark Weiss wrote: > > Nice. But suppose the third line read "and let the girls blow chunks in the > porcelain goddess." You get that half-rhyme gross/ goddess, which seems > meaningful all by itself, although you lose that nifty inversion. > > At 09:58 AM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: > >The original manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_ recovered in > >Paris, and now this, found by a custodian cleaning out lockers at Santa > >Monica High School. Eat your heart out, Stephen Mitchell! > > > > > > AUTUMN DAZE > > > > > > George, it's about time. The summer was really gross. > > Knock me unconscious with my surfboard, > > and in the porcelain goddess let the girls blow chunks. > > > > Roll the last kegs into the entry hall; > > my parents are in Rio for only two more days, > > frontload some brewskis and throw > > another barney into the swimming pool. > > > > Who has no Jeep now, will drive him one no more. > > Who is a dweeb now, will always live at home, > > will wake, chill, check his e-mail > > and down the long aisles of the megamall > > cluelessly stumble, while his zits are growing. > > > > > >David Bromige wrote: > > > >> Fall > >> > >> Man, where'd the time go? Detroit?. > >> But summer was really, really great. > >> > >> Stand that side of the sundial, will ya? > >> I want to dig the shadows. > >> > >> Robert Duncan's freaking in the meadow. > >> > >> Those apples can't get a whole lot riper. > >> Give em a couple more hot days. > >> My friends who have the winery are already making the wine. > >> > >> It's getting chilly, nights. If you don't have a pad by now, > >> Too bad. If you're not seeing someone > >> You're likely stuck that way, they went back to school. > >> Crack a book yourself. Write in Starbucks. > >> Go walkabout downtown. [Time passes]. Hey, lookit > >> the leaves, wind, etc. doing their thing. Rustle rustle. > >> Contrast and compare yourself. Cool! > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:57:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: a lost Rilke translation In-Reply-To: <36254CE3.CBBAEF1B@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd follow my heart if I were you. At 06:16 PM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, I think Biff (my mute inglorious Milton) is the love child of Suzy >Creamcheese and Herter Norton, so he wants to retain some of that weird >inverted German spine. > >Rachel > >Mark Weiss wrote: >> >> Nice. But suppose the third line read "and let the girls blow chunks in the >> porcelain goddess." You get that half-rhyme gross/ goddess, which seems >> meaningful all by itself, although you lose that nifty inversion. >> >> At 09:58 AM 10/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >The original manuscript of Rimbaud's _Une saison en enfer_ recovered in >> >Paris, and now this, found by a custodian cleaning out lockers at Santa >> >Monica High School. Eat your heart out, Stephen Mitchell! >> > >> > >> > AUTUMN DAZE >> > >> > >> > George, it's about time. The summer was really gross. >> > Knock me unconscious with my surfboard, >> > and in the porcelain goddess let the girls blow chunks. >> > >> > Roll the last kegs into the entry hall; >> > my parents are in Rio for only two more days, >> > frontload some brewskis and throw >> > another barney into the swimming pool. >> > >> > Who has no Jeep now, will drive him one no more. >> > Who is a dweeb now, will always live at home, >> > will wake, chill, check his e-mail >> > and down the long aisles of the megamall >> > cluelessly stumble, while his zits are growing. >> > >> > >> >David Bromige wrote: >> > >> >> Fall >> >> >> >> Man, where'd the time go? Detroit?. >> >> But summer was really, really great. >> >> >> >> Stand that side of the sundial, will ya? >> >> I want to dig the shadows. >> >> >> >> Robert Duncan's freaking in the meadow. >> >> >> >> Those apples can't get a whole lot riper. >> >> Give em a couple more hot days. >> >> My friends who have the winery are already making the wine. >> >> >> >> It's getting chilly, nights. If you don't have a pad by now, >> >> Too bad. If you're not seeing someone >> >> You're likely stuck that way, they went back to school. >> >> Crack a book yourself. Write in Starbucks. >> >> Go walkabout downtown. [Time passes]. Hey, lookit >> >> the leaves, wind, etc. doing their thing. Rustle rustle. >> >> Contrast and compare yourself. Cool! >> > >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sean Casey Subject: Impossible Object Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing the fall issue of Impossible Object, Brown's online literary magazine: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/English/Writing/object/ Check out the "Ladder of Fitness" -- my fave. Sean -- Box 722, Brown University Providence, RI 02912 x6748 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:46:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbuuck Subject: new book by jocelyn saidenberg Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing a new title from Parentheses Writing Series: Mortal City by Jocelyn Saidenberg "In Saidenberg's surprising, varied universe, one may wander for many days without reaching or being allowed to enter the gates of the implicitly promised city. Or one may cease to be a "one" altogether, and develop into a plurality dedicated to rebuilding the city from the outside, as an agglomeration of texts with their own inevitabilities and generations of outcome. The rules of the game are still pending..." -Pamela Lu, from a review in Tripwire 2 (forthcoming) $8 available from Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh St Berkeley, CA 94710-1490 1-800-869-7553 orders@spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:53:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: "My" Laura Riding In-Reply-To: <362538AF.5002@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's good to see Lisa mention "Progress" and "Anarchism" AS WELL AS the poetry of the period (in contrast to, say, vendler). ... when I was considering writing my dissertation on Riding at SUNY-Albany and having a hard time putting together a committee that would be interested enough in a)a single author study of ANYBODY and b)any who shared my enthusiasm for both aspects of Riding and (Riding) Jackson's work-- I could find a shared interest with Don Byrd in Contemporaries and Snobs (1928) and The Telling (1972), but he didn't care much for the poetry. Pierre Joris kept on confusing Riding with Mina Loy when I brought her up to him (and put one of her most uncharacteristic poems in the MILLENIUM anthology). I thought the Dickensonian there (Helen Elam) might have come to appreciate what I see as clear resonances (both thematically and rhythmically) in some of the early poems, but no go. Anyway, it does seem hard to find people who appreciate the range of her work--even antagonisticaly. I do largely agree with Lisa though--that (at this point in my writing and/or life) I am more interested in the earlier work than Rational Meaning (though many of the late essays, and The Telling, are definitely worth reading---and I do think that an understanding of the poetry may benefit by reading them. There's a very interesting relationship between the "early" and "later" works, not really adequately reducible to a "post-renunciation" binary)--yet I would include FOUR UNPOSTED LETTERS TO CATHERINE (certainly as important as Rilke's letters to a young poet--though my students found it too preachy; i guess i like being preached to--sometimes, at least; depending on how it's done) and CONTEMPORARIES AND SNOBS (and early essays like "A Prophecy or a Plea" or the chapter on Shakespeare and Cummings in "A survey"-- by the way, maybe those who have problems with Riding might appreciate the early work in "FIRST AWAKENINGS" more. I think this book is certainly as good as "THE LOST LUNAR BAEDEKER" by LOY). So I wonder if Lisa's "early" vs. "late", really works-- for she, and Charles B., and others who claim to prefer the "early" Riding generally do not include this book as one of the favs. Perhaps because by the terms of C AND S, these writers (and probably myself too) would be considered "snobs"--- I should probably plug LIVES OF WIVES too (which "our" Douglass Messerli published) and definitely THE WORD "WOMAN"-- all of these written before 1938 I guess I'll say one thing more here about the conference-- The "board" people (largely british) objected (among other things) to the theorization that was seen in the american academics' papers --yet themselves could not effectively articulate a response to these papers. So, there was a very interesting moment when "OUR" charles bernstein changed the terms, and pointed out that the "theorists" (watten, samuels, schultz, but not me) were really--or should I say also--poets, and that the "binary" that was perceived by many of the loudest voices was not really between unquestioned acceptance of (Riding) Jackson's works on one hand and a more critically antagonistic (yet academically inflected) approach on the other, but, rather, between those who would claim the later writings were "even better" than the poetry and those who were POETS--- but I would still argue that this reframing of the argument on Bernstein's part does seem to imply that one must be THEORETICALLY inflected, and privileges the "legitimizing" discourse of Zizek ETC.,by--in effect--claiming that one must be theoretically inflected in order to be a POET. There are other ways to read this, I know. For instance, it did seem that the "antagonistic" writers did have more of a personality and that perhaps the brits took (Riding) JAckson in too dour a sense, and did not emphasize the moments in her writing--apparent even in her later writing I think--in which she isn't really asking for complete unwavering subordination to HER views. On this level, I would be very much aligned with the less "reverential" american theorist-poet-critics. But I still find many unanswered questions about the motivations of the "alternative" viewpoint that seemed to try to co-opt L(R)J into the terms of american academic discourse under the guise of defending her poetry.... It was noteworthy that nobody (myself included)--even those who claimed to be very moved by her poetry--could yet offer readings of the poems in their talks. Perhaps the framing, the myth, the FIGURE of L(R)J is still too much in the way ("Life size is too large"). I would like to see more of this at some point, and still believe that one can use Riding's, er, (Riding) Jackson's own writings AS a theoretical grid by which to read her poems (or poems by others), and I think her "crankiness" (in which I find much generous, good-natured humour by the way) is but one of many "roles" she played, in order to foster a possibility that one may have more intelligent, critical even, discussion of poetry and all forms of writing (whether literary or not) without having to constantly appeal to "legitimizing" theoretical writing. In this sense, one can see the "later" Riding Jackson IN the "earlier" poems by Riding; the poetry can also be used as a "theory" by which to read the "non-poetic" writing.... I don't know if any of this is going to be helpful to those who have not yet found pleasure or relevance or whatever in her, and I need to unpack many of these ideas further (since Riding IS daunting), but I had to at least say something more here in these email suburbs....... chris On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Lisa Samuels wrote: > dear jonathan, mark, et al, > > for me, the two best books of riding's are =progress of stories= > (1935) -- her principal, really her sole, collection of short stories -- > and =anarchism is not enough= (1928), which i'm happy to say will be > reprinted by the univ. of california press by this coming summer (so my > editor tells me -- i wrote notes & intro for it). the latter is quite > wonderful, in the vein of =guide to kulchur=, =content's dream=, and the > like. both are wholly "prose." > > my favorites of her poems come and go rather than being concentrated > in a particular book (leaving aside the =collected=). some work in > =love as love, death as death= (1928), and the outrageous blakean =the > life of the dead= (1933), some work in =though gently= (1930, a kind of > severe =spring and all= mix of prose and poetry), and in =poet: a lying > word=, are meaningful to me as efforts toward poetry as intellectual > beauty (stressing the first word) and/or a literature of embodied > knowledge. hammering at words to break them open, structuring them to > build something, concreting abstractions. > > but i'll stand by the first-mentioned two prose works, any day. not > to say they have no competition or context (eg calvino, wittgenstein, > bataille). but that's not really to the point, since i presume we want > to multiply rather than divide the works we find worth reading about > ways of seeing. > > as for riding's later works, i do find touching some of the heartfelt > idealism of =the telling= (even as i find its totalizing unitarianism a > bit scary and certainly impossible); but i think =rational meaning= was > written by riding's spectre. except when i pretend that it's poetry, > too. > > as for her intrepretive screws -- put to interpreters, that is -- i > figure 1/ she had some reasons to feel pissed off, but mostly 2/ she was > an intransigent, cranky absolutist who could be very not nice. and > isn't it a pretty common trait of 'genius' -- a category i find not > terrifically useful, except perhaps in describing someone who has an > extremely limited one thing they master and obsess about -- to lack > common sense perspective? > > and finally, she didn't denounce so much as renounce poetry, as people > have pointed out in various articles. but she did not repudiate her old > work. she wanted the powers of poetry to be absorbed into what she came > to see as the genre-less universal language of english prose. > > i'll shut up now -- i just felt moved to respond to some of these > interesting remarks & queries about her work. > > lisa s. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:01:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: theoretical/practical thoughts -- origin of the cliche query on originality ok listservers, i'm throwing in for comment/analysis some thoughts i've been having on that favorite of our sujects, writing. their focal point is originality. i got in my email what purported to be a manifesto for rebel poets. the problem, for me, with this manifesto was that it was chock-a-block with cliches. "fire in the belly" was the one i particularly remember. i simply could not reconcile the notion of being a rebel with the use of tired stale phrases in any aspect of writing -- the actual writing or the marketing/promotional/theory/criticism around it. if you like, a query more specific than the one going on the exchanged, perceptual generia of writing from a "school," or "movement." i get to see a very wide range of writing -- everything from amateur to polished, from formal to langpo, from traditional to so-new-it-isn't-even- a-"school." one consistency i've found is that when people don't read much (and what they DO read is generally written by similarly non-reading writers), their writing is rife with cliche -- anything from "like a moth to a flame" to "her sweet kiss" to "knows how to treat a lady." not that they are the only ones to use cliche -- more on that anon. definition: when i say cliche, i don't mean someone who takes a cliche and turns it inside out, uses it not only conscious that it is a cliche, but intentionally examining the cliche and unravelling it, as in, for example, gertrude stein, or our own alan sondheim/jennifer. no, i mean a cliche placed contextually such that it is clear it was believed by writer to be a strong personal, artistic contribution to the poem. i know there is the lens of cultural studies, as our maria damon is very good with. and (forgive me maria if i mis-state this) in that lens, there is not, per se, the cliche so much as a phrase or word-arrangment representing something to the user, communicating something. and "originality" might in many ways be marginal to a project of study, as in, for example, an informed, critical dissection of partridge family episodes (meant _quite_ seriously -- who does what to whom, how, and why, adn when, using what language, could be extremely informative). while that is certainly worth factoring in, i am trying to puzzle out, more, how cliches function, what it says about the writing, the writer's thinking, the writing context being imagined and invoked. at first, and still i must admit, part of me winces, and feels inclined to dismiss the user of a cliche. it feels dishonest in a combination of ways -- 1) socially dishonest/distasteful, as in the man in the hemingway story who brags about the size of fish he claims he caught, whilst his wife, who REALLY caught the fish, listens. cheezy. bad form. 2) in scholarly way -- a form of plagiarism. use of someone's words meant to seem as if they were your own in context where specifically, one's use of words, ways with them, are what is at stake. but i've seen cliches in the writing of more skilled writers. indeed, one of the things one does in writing workshops, i've often found, is to be a sort of cliche-screener, pointing them out as one would any other weakness in early drafts. i've learned to look for them in my own writing. and found them. from latter experience, i developed two points of origin for the cliche: 1) when working from strong, fairly fully developed conception, one might be trying to fill in a section of plot/writing whilst simultaneously trying to hurry and get to a section several plot twists/phrases/lines on so as not to forget the bit in one's head. in that situation, one can sometimes jam in a cliche just as a sort of temporary place marker, or filler -- cliches can sum up/stand in for/remind one of fairly complex material. i've learned to mark this in some way, and go back later. otherwise, one lets the sounding/phrases of this into one's editing consciousness and it is easy to lose sight of the cliched fill-in quality. 2) you are writing from another person's phrasing/voice. specific: i found, once, when writing a technical-writing peice where i felt unsure, that i was adopting a sort of "voice of authority" cribbed out of, i later realized, documentaries on the subject. which, upon examination, were stuffed with the cliche, i.e. "in the beating heart of the sea, life, it's splendor and tragedy, goes on..." (DIDN'T use this dreadful sentence, just bring it up as typical example. NO ONE will EVER see the particular sentences -- they've been burned, and the ashes sown into fields, and buildings they were burned in razed to the ground, and hangin' was too good for 'em, sez i... but against this background, the almost unimaginable originality, singular point-of-writing/technique/view of many extraordinary writers. for example, stein. or joyce. or niedecker. or e. bishop. or m. moore. or thomas browne, or g. herbert, or c. smart. k. acker. etc. as if the writing is so inherently _personal_, distinctly arrived at, that cliche is almost impossible -- the writing is NEW, new-minted, direct from a recognizable conscioussness. unmediated? is cliche the intrusion of other into a "self" writing? the use of "other" to somehow palatiate, water down, an utterly personal -- perhaps threateningly so (to writer, or in writers perception, to other people) -- line of thought/inquir?. a calling in of "authority," of other people to bolster what feels like a moment of terrible loneliness and exposure? a temporary drift into a sort of group consciousness, or voice from out of the individual solitary of original writing? can "original" uncliched writing COME from a group? anyway, any thoughts anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:02:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: FAREWELL TOUR In-Reply-To: <199810150601.CAA07090@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, it was going to be a "book tour" but the book may now not be out till afterwards.... Washington DC.... me and Jodi Bloom---Sunday Oct. 18th @3PM DCAC--2438 18th St. NW. Washington DC 20009 Philadelphia me and Ethel Rackin and Tom Devaney-- Sartuday Nov. 14th. Highwire Gallery. Elf's Alley and 2nd St. New York Matthew Rohrer and me Monday Nov. 16th. 8PM St. MArk's Poetry Project. 8PM New York Sharon Mesmer and me Monday Dec. 7th. 6pm. NO MOORE (corner of No. Moore and Broadway) ------chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:21:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: try these experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Do you also do six impossible things before breakfast? Robert On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Henry Gould wrote: > 1. Divide all your poetry into "practice work" and "poetry". Keep all your > practice work at home - don't show it to anyone - make your will & designate > all the practice work for the posthumous recycling bin. > > 2. Establish extremely rigid, difficult & high standards for your poetry > for public consumption. These should include: a) no poetry which you > could not recite without embarassment to ANYONE - from Czeslaw Milosz > to the families in line at the food pantry; b) no imitations: ie. > no vague strings that "sound like" Ashbery or pedantic excoriations > of the bad guys that quote obscure historical documents & "sound like" > Pound; c) nothing too boring to read to the most acidly clever wit you > know; d) nothing too classy to read before a high school audience from > the trailer park; e) no poems that start with "from"; f) no poems that > will not confuse, bore, and offend your own literary set. > > 3. Accept the fact that the poetics list is a substitute for reading and > writing poetry and "sign off" for at least 3 months. > > 4. Accept the fact that in a rich materialist consumer glut empire, the > concept of "anything goes" in art & poetry, the cult of over-production, > is one of the prime examples of conformity all along the literary > spectrum, from the fat & bloated "margins" to the complacent "mainstream". > As Errol Miller puts it (in his poem in Nedge #6) "here we have > hard-hitting poetry and soft judges". Once you have accepted this > fact, search for a sustainable poetic economy. > > 5. Do the following over a period of six months, simultaneously: > 1) volunteer at your local homeless shelter & devise an employment program > for laid-off workers & high school dropouts involving the production of > "people's bicycles"; 2) give away all your extra clothes; 3) learn > Spanish and Swedish; 4) stop using the word "aporia"; 5) ride the > rails; 6) work on no more than ONE poem. > > 6. When you return to your "literary" life, do the following simultaneously > (absolutely NO shirking): write an article about your "people's bike" > industry for your local paper; write an essay on a poet you thought > you weren't going to like & still aren't sure if you do; write a letter > to your Mom; work on no more than ONE poem per month in your private notebook. > > - I guarantee if you fulfill these six simple experimental assignments > the literary atmosphere will clear & brighten considerably & all will > be well & all manner of thing will be well & the inflated & devalued > will be deflated & revalued. Amen. > > - Henry Gould > Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:32:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: neutral tune Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Henry writes: //maybe code was the wrong word to use. I'm thinking of something more basic & simple. My question is: if you hear a neutral musi= c or generic quality beneath variations of performance - could it not be that y= ou are hearing what is truly universal & generic to language itself, no matter what the language, what the dialect, etc. You are hearing the rhythm of syllables - the rhythm created when sound is broken into components & reassembled.// I guess this is possible and find it v. interesting that Henry has this de= ep sense of the music. But it's what the French call a mise en abime or Poe = a descent into the maelstr=F6m or Mark an ur universal. The nearest attempt= I know to show that intonation has universal features is Ivan Fonagy's book = La Vive Voix. Ivan, a wonderful old Hungarian prof and co-worker with Jakobs= on, searched with a certain success for common intonation factors across Europ= ean languages for expressions of joy, sorrow, etc. But I think of a story by = Fee Dawson where a Fee figure in a gift shop in Japan hears a hissing noise af= ter an obnoxious customer leaves, thinks it's the heating pipes, and realises = the shopkeepers are laughing. Aristotle, as interpreted by medieval commentat= ors, thought animals' barks and cries might be universal, but I note they don'= t cross species. A fledgling songbird isolated in a lab from all contact wi= th its species song will grow up, apparently, singing a badly flawed version = of the adult song. Could be genes, I guess, but do genes sing? It's the sort= of thing that makes me think life more mysterious even than we suppose. Anyw= ay, what kind of person would isolate the little birdy thing like that? Someo= ne without a song in his/her heart. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:17:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Spicer from last night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi, Stephen, > >Again, thank you for your thoughts & readings. Okay, as far as > >> Actually, however, I wonder also what might happen in a reading of Spicer >> that deals with ocean and radio as sympathetic tropes (radio >> signal as that >> which is cast forth, like seaweed, from out of nowhere a la >> Cocteau). There >> seems a sense of ocean as primal static, a sort of undifferentiated >> semantic noise from which language (_Language_) is formed. > >in "Transformations," we get > > ... Those >Swans we saw in the garden coming out of > the water we hated them. "Out of place," > you said in passing. Those swans and > I (a blink in context), all out of place > we hated you. > >So, what's happening here? For one thing, a reversal takes place, the "we" >in the beginning of this hanging-indent stanza isn't the same "we" by the >end of it. The first we "hated them"--the swans--the second we includes the >swans. The I becomes a pivot. And, at the word "passing," we do pass, from >one "we" to the next. But, now, Stephen, how does what you say above work >with this image of swans coming out of water & hatred attached to them. Some >judgment against them. And, also, judgment on the part of the swans against >the others. The first hatred because the swans are seen as "out of place." >The second hatred (the swans' hatred) as consequence of being "all out of >place." Except, of course, this is Spicer, and when we read "Those swans >and/ I (a blink in context), all out of place/ we hated you" it's another >one of these great Hericlitean hinge-phrases, where, depending on the kind >of emphasis you put & where you put it, the whole meaning changes. So that >we can include I and be separate from I. In other words, in the final "we >hated you," "we" might be "I and the swans" or "I and the 'you' in the >second sentence." > >Okay, so, I'm not sure if this is what you mean when you say substratic, how >the language crystalizes, and then, as you begin to really study it, breaks >back down into formless liquid. But, we do get the swans coming out of the >water (as far as an image in the poem), and then, more significantly, what >happens as we read this thing, I mean, it's a great effect, and of course we >end with "We/ Hated them." which is kinda funny since by this time "we" and >"them" are everyone involved. And this comes right after the phrase "the >last/ swan back in place." So, to be "in place," okay, what does that mean >for Spicer? Or for his pronouns? Does it mean liquid? Formlessness? >Pre-crystallization? > >Gary Gary, Is this poem a meditation on deixis? To be "out of place" would then be a condition of pronominality. "I am not them," which is "the first transformation," (and the first defintion) bespeaks the differential nature of 'sign' (which is in French pronounced the same as the word for 'swan,' an old pun that Spicer may have gotten from Proust or Baudelaire). Everything's context bound, and the context's constantly shifting. Nothing is in it's place, because pronouns have no place. They are everyone's and no-one's, everywhere and nowhere. This says little about water (or for that matter garden, which has its history as well), so I don't know how much it aides us. Nor do I really have any adequate knowledge of the strains of linguistic research that Spicer may have been following here (he published an article on linguistics, didn't he?). To clarify 'substrate,' though: I was using it cosmologically, meaning that for Thales everything was ultimately water in varying degrees of purification, and I don't see that kind of a notion being advanced on Spicer's part. Actually, beyond Anaxiamnder even, I think Heraclitus, indeed, is the figure for this, particularly given Spicer's having figured the whole poem in terms of conflict, contentiousness, "hatred," and "enemies." (But then for Heraclitus, of course, all is fire... I'm enjoying this conversation... Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:37:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Berenstein & the Avant-Bored Bears In-Reply-To: <199810141851.LAA04679@geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >if john cage said that then john cage has not seen the tv show "full house" What I want to know is: why would anyone here have seen it? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:37:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: space between words In-Reply-To: <19981014215352.21802.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The space between people is called just that. The space between buildings? You got it! What about the space between rocks? That's inter-rock space. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:17:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: neutral tune In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:32:55 EDT from We still seem to be talking at cross-purposes - I'm not suggesting ur-music at all - I'm questioning your testing method. If the process of breaking sounds into syllables & reassembling them as words is universal to language, isn't it possible that this universal is disrupting your experiment? How can you say you detect a "neutral music" underlying variations in performance without taking this into account? That is all I'm saying. The process of syllable- and word-formation might establish a sort of standard rhythm for all speech, which might be what you are hearing - the sameness of the same. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:48:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: "My" Laura Riding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit louis stroffolino wrote: > . Pierre Joris kept on confusing Riding with Mina > Loy when I brought her up to him (and put one of her most > uncharacteristic poems in the MILLENIUM anthology). hmm, chris, that wasn't so much confusion as my old frustrated desire to get one of my students to do a diss on riding & loy (& elsa von F-L). am in fact still looking for someone to write on that specific troika. and then you go & do billy shake... btw, over & over 100% besides myself make all the reperations & preparations worthwhile -- lovely works, Pierre -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:27:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: try these experiments In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:21:40 -0700 from On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:21:40 -0700 Robert Corbett said: >Do you also do six impossible things before breakfast? Every poem should include at least this many impossible things. Making light of my experimental proposals isn't difficult - certainly not impossible, especially if you take them literally, in good non-poetic fashion. Biblical literalists do it all the time. I doubt whether many have run through J. Mayhew's list of fantastic experiments either. But my point was to suggest some issues that rarely get much focus on this "innovative" list. Such as the role of the poet as individual "social actor" or historical witness. In a literary market economy where the money lies in mysteries, thrillers, biographies, self-help books, and the rest of the mountain of conventional self-adjuster-release mechanisms, it's become an assumption that innovative or alternative poetries should just set up their own alternative networks and produce produce produce and publish publish publish and promote promote promote in ways that simply mirror the commercial sector. Whatever happened to the poet's role as political intepreter or exemplar? As outcast or participant in real events and political issues? I am not thinking so much of the "poet in prison" paradigm of various tyrannies, but of Whitman's example of the poet who insinuates him or herself into larger historical dramas (nursing the Civil War wounded), or even more pertinent, of the poet who makes the writing process consciously related to or dependent on an existential situation - the poet as reporter (can't think of an example offhand). Another aspect of this is the question of value & production - how do you compare the enormous oeuvres of contemporary poets with someone like Vallejo, for example - whose poetry is of great interest precisely because of the collision between creative innovation and existential (poor, emigre, exile, embattled) reality that is expressed throughout. What is precious about poetry if it simply mimics the mass commercial popularity & success contest - if it declines to "reach into the wound & heal it" as Mandelstam puts it (Slate Ode)? What is the value of innovation for innovation's sake? More specifically, what, if any, is its political or moral purpose? But that's a boring way to address these issues - the question is what do we value in poetry - technique, or technique justified by moral perception & commitment? Where is the ethos, the criticism of life and human ways, the wisdom? Where is the pathos of solidarity with non-literary pursuits? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:13:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: FW: [RRE]copyright law] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit thot this re copyrights may be of interest to some on the list -- Pierre > -----Original Message----- > From: rre@lists.gseis.ucla.edu [mailto:rre@lists.gseis.ucla.edu] On > Behalf Of Phil Agre > Sent: Monday, October 12, 1998 9:44 PM > To: Red Rock Eater News Service > Subject: [RRE]copyright law > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). > Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. > You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use > the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions > for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html > or send a message to requests@lists.gseis.ucla.edu with Subject: info rre > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:52:09 +0000 > >From: Eric Eldred > To: Phil Agre > Subject: Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act > > Hi Phil, > > An emergency alert. > > The U.S. Congress on Wednesday, October 7, 1998, > passed the "Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act." > As of 10/11 it was waiting for the signature of > the President, who has already said he will sign it. > > I have taken my web site down and urged everyone > to email president@whitehouse.gov to veto the act, > if they want a digital library on the Internet. > > The important aspect of the Act is that it will > prevent from entering the public domain most works > first published after 1922. Thus those of us > volunteers such as in Project Gutenberg who scan > and post full texts of books will be denied access > to those works, and be unable to continue with > our work of presenting a free global public library. > > The Act was passed without public debate, without > news coverage, under a suspension of the rules, > by voice votes, without even a quorum. You may > read all about it at http://thomas.loc.gov if you > search under S505. > > In my opinion the significance of the Act is that > it transfers a huge amount of rights and monies > from the public to special private interests. If > there is anything such as American cultural > imperialism it only strengthens it by force of law. > > One argument for the act is that it is required > in order to normalize free international trade that > countries have the same copyright terms. However, > the act will not implement that, since European > terms are after the death of the author, while > U.S. terms until recently were dated after first > publication. Secondly, there seems no reason why > European terms should not be shortened instead of > U.S. terms lengthened. > > The Act will increase copyright terms by 20 years. > That means up to 95 years after first publication. > I can't think of a single author who lived that long. > Clearly, the act will benefit only distant heirs, > or, more likely, the large publishers who own most > of these copyrights. It would hardly encourage new > authors--can you think of anyone who would refuse > to publish a book because the term was only 70 years > after her death, instead of 90? > > By the way, the act was named after the late > Representative Sonny Bono by request of his wife, > who was appointed in his stead. Rep. Mary Bono > stated that he and she wished copyright to last > forever, but that would be in violation of the > Constitution, she was told, so she would settle for > forever minus one day. Although Sonny Bono is not > particularly known for a great amount of intellectual > property, evidently his widow wishes to be enriched > even in the distant future by royalties from any > of his songs or works. > > Nobody spoke up for the public and the consumer. > No one reminded the legislators that the American > people have a Constitutional right to all works > protected by copyright. Copyright is and ought > always to be a sacred contract between an author > and the public. When the fixed, limited term > expires, the rights revert to the public. Only > this way can the public use the ideas for the > free public discussion necessary for an informed > democratic republic such as ours. > > I see this act as part of a larger movement > aimed squarely at the book as we know it and > the Internet as we have constructed it. > > In the future, the e-book will be a software > product that will be protected not by copyright, > but by a shrinkwrap license and by hardware > locks. The "reader" will not be able to own > the book, but will only be licensed to consume > it as "pay-per-view". Scholars will find that > books that are not commercially successful will > just evaporate--libraries will not be able to > function in the way they have been accustomed > to. > > To facilitate production of this type of book, > NIST (U.S. National Institute for Standards > and Technology) sponsored an "e-book" conference > this week in Maryland. At the conference the > large publisher Microsoft announced a proprietary > format for e-books, a combination of HTML and > XML islands that will withstand copying. > > The World Wide Web will be turned into something > like "pay-per-view" television. Books will not > be available for free nor will purchased books > be able to be copied or resold. Consumers will > be allowed to consume products if they pay for > them, but non-profit producers or home self- > publishers will be crowded out of the e-markets. > > We are being presented with some clear alternatives. > If we are going to do anything to use the Internet > to promote democracy and human rights and literacy > and intelligent discussion, then we need to fight > actively all attempts such as the bone-headed > Bono Act that restrict the power of the web. Our > government must not be allowed to listen only to > lobbyists for large publishers, and use its power > of criminal enforcement only in their behalf. If > the government wishes to aid the Internet, let it > keep its hands off. > > Those of us who wish to promote a free global > public library must redouble our efforts. We will > need to beg rich people to buy up the rights to > copyrighted works and donate them for free posting > to the web. We will need to financially support > a competitive free space on the web that makes > works available. We will need to encourage all > means for small producers to publish from their > own web sites. > > Please note that I am not opposed to a reasonable > copyright term. However, 95 years seems ridiculous. > And I am not opposed to selling books over the net. > Indeed, Internet technology can only facilitate > that, and aid protection by copyright alone--there > is no need for additional criminalization nor locks. > And I am not opposed to businesses making money. > I am opposed, however, to businesses crying for > special protection at the expense of the public. > Finally, it is quite true that many American workers > are employed in businesses that produce copyrighted > works. However, it remains to be explained why > if they are so successful they need this added > protection. In fact, the protection seems to be > granted only so as to enable U.S. firms owning > these copyrights to dominate companies in other > countries. Thus the end effect is to encourage > an American cultural imperialism of a capitalist > consumer society, at the expense of the public > places in a democratic global society. > > I hope you will aid me in publicizing these remarks. > > -- > "Eric" Eric Eldred Eldritch Press > mailto:EricEldred@usa.net http://eldred.ne.mediaone.net/ -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:39:10 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: theoretical/practical thoughts -- origin of the cliche In-Reply-To: <199810150601.CAA07090@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some "random thoughts" on a "thought-provoking" post: I only write in cliches, but you mean the unconscious ones used by amateur writers. Moving up the scale, there are commonplaces used in particular schools of writing. I'm thinking of "deep image" poetry for example: a particular vocabulary seen to be intrinsically poetic, or lyrical: deep, dark,same,sound, sky, empty, stone, whole, always, desire, silence, memory, dead, dawn. Merwin or Gluck (Louise) would know better than to use stock phrases of the sort you cited in your post, but their language is often trite all the same. Maybe instead of teaching beginning writers to avoid cliches, writing workshops could teach them to write only* in cliches, that way writers would at least know that that* is what they are doing. Then if they wanted to avoid certain commonplaces they could do it more easily. This could be done even at a fairly sophisticated level. There are the cliches of Langpo, vizpo, etc... Michael Riffaterre's Semiotics of Poetry contends that poems are written through the transformation of cultural commonplaces. If we said "good writers avoid cliches" wouldn't that be the first entry in a Dictionary of Received Ideas? Or, as Oscar Wilde might have said, "only unoriginal writers worry about avoiding cliches." Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:08:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Lee Ann Brown Comments: To: jmayhew@eagle.cc.ukans.edu In-Reply-To: from "MAYHEW" at Oct 15, 98 09:39:10 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone know if Lee Ann Brown's email address has changed? Lee Ann, you out there? I have a question. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: in the mood... In-Reply-To: <3625EF25.157092F6@csc.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yknow typically i read poetics b/c i want insight into, not the critical apparatus per se, but the more generative side of the author-text-reader-context continuum... but reading the various remarks on riding-jackson---which i've really enjoyed---and several other threads, i feel compelled for some reason to do the continental... to wit (and the following excerpt begins with more than a touch of irony): "... how can one reduce the great peril, the great danger with which fiction [read poetry too, e.g.] threatens our world? the answer is: one can reduce it with the author. the author allows a limitation of the cancerous and dangerous proliferation of significations within a world where one is thrifty not only with one's resources and riches, but also with one's discourses and their significations. the author is the principle of thrift in the proliferation of meaning. as a result, we must entirely reverse the traditional idea of the author.... the author is not an indefinite source of significations which fill a work; the author does not precede the works, he is a certain functional principle by which, in our culture, one limits, excludes, and chooses; in short, by which one impedes the free circulation, the free manipulation, the free composition, decomposition, and recomposition of fiction ... the author is therefore the ideological figure by which one marks the manner in which we fear the proliferation of meaning. in saying this i seem to call for a form of culture in which fiction would not be limited by the figure of the author. it would be pure romanticism, however, to imagine a culture in which the fictive would operate in an absolutely free state, in which fiction would be put at the disposal of everyone and would develop without passing through something like a necessary or constraining figure." these words will no doubt be familiar to many of you---from foucault's little, (academically) influential 1969 essay, "what is an author?"... i offer them here not as a corrective to anyone's thinking on the matter---and certainly not to privilege one way of thinking over another (and certainly not to condescend to anyone)---but simply with the aim of suggesting that the discussion of riding-jackson's work in particular would seem to benefit from an exploration of her status as "author," with quotes intact---i.e., the way the author-function (foucault's term, in translation) works in her case... you can go the zizek route too---any number of critical routes, in fact... but it strikes me that a diverse array of works (an oeuvre, if you like), in prose and poetry, works that present us with contradictory intertextual appeals, might benefit from scrutiny as to the way the or an "author" emerges in our attempts to "get at" same... it's probably too easy, too, to simply attribute such works to multiple authors (and this in itself, and as foucault suggests, would likely become, however multiple, a "constraining figure")... a matter of emphasis?---perhaps... no, i don't know quite how to proceed with regard to riding-jackson in particular, but i can almost get a glimpse of how one might... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:38:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Berenstein & the Avant-Bored Bears In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" george, i have a 12 year old son who was younger around the FULL HOUSE heyday. i have a 4 year old dog who will actually pull the tv's plug out of the socket when MTV's Road Rules is on. i have a 5 year old tortoise who has never seen television in his life. and our 8 year old parakeet died last week without ever having seen the television right below her. but rest assured when we leave the dogs alone in the house for short periods of time we put on national public radio. don cheney >>if john cage said that then john cage has not seen the tv show "full house" > >What I want to know is: why would anyone here have seen it? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:56:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: space between words In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" interlithic space At 12:37 AM 10/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >The space between people is called just that. >The space between buildings? You got it! >What about the space between rocks? That's inter-rock space. > > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: soyinka's return MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this, from today's NYT, is a rare piece of good news -- Pierre LAGOS, Nigeria -- Wole Soyinka, Nigeria's exiled Nobel literature laureate, returned home Wednesday, nearly four years after fleeing the military dictatorship he vigorously opposed. As Nigeria's most prominent exile, the playwright's return is an important expression of confidence in the promise by the country's military ruler, Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar, to restore democracy in the West African country. Hundreds of well-wishers sang freedom songs in Soyinka's native Yoruba language at the international airport in Lagos. They surged toward him as he emerged from a flight from Germany just after 7.30 P.M. Soyinka drove straight to the home of Moshood K. O. Abiola, the presumed winner of 1993 elections who died in detention in July after being locked up for claiming his mandate on the basis of the vote that was annulled by the army. "What I looked forward to so much was the day I would hug Abiola, but that never happened," Soyinka said. "Let us not talk about that now. Let us concentrate on the inspiration that Abiola and his family have been to us." Soyinka, the winner of the 1986 Nobel Prize for Literature, left Nigeria secretly in 1994 after Gen. Sani Abacha, the late dictator, banned him from traveling. He had led street protests against military rule and for the recognition of Abiola as President, and his outspoken criticism of the junta from inside Nigeria and later from abroad has made him an important opposition symbol to many Nigerians. From exile, he called on Western countries to impose sanctions to force General Abacha to step down and warned that armed struggle might be needed to end military rule. In 1997 he was charged in absentia for treason over a bombing campaign. Most of his time was spent in the United States where he taught at Emory University in Atlanta. Nigeria, Africa's most populous nation with more than 104 million people, has undergone a swift reopening since General Abacha's sudden death in June. General Abubakar says he will step down next May. He has freed dozens of political prisoners and last month called on all exiles to return home to take part in the new democracy plan after dropping charges against them. Several have returned in response to the call. General Abubakar is from the north, as were General Abacha and most of Nigeria's rulers since independence from Britain in 1960. Soyinka and General Abubakar met in New York last month and the general asked Soyinka to come home. "He is not the type who will return and fold his arms," said Tunji Adebiyi, a political activist. "Even if he wanted to, his supporters from across the country will not allow him to, as they will be looking up to him for direction." -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:38:26 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: theoretical/practical thoughts -- origin of the cliche MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > > > If we said "good writers avoid cliches" wouldn't that be the first > entry > in a Dictionary of Received Ideas? Or, as Oscar Wilde might have said, > > "only unoriginal writers worry about avoiding cliches." > > Jonathan My thoughts exactly. Oh. . .damn. . . I'm doing it too, receiving ideas from Wilde. I suppose in the end it's not the size or source of your reception, but what you do with it that matters. I think that's also what McGrand is getting at, that in spite of how various theoretical positions might complicate how we think about "cliches," what do you do practically, if you are in a classroom and confronted by students who write, what to you, looks unbearably derivative, pre-rehearsed, stilted, or just plain dull? And I think McGrand's insights are helpful (thought familiar), at least in that they get us to think about "cliche" as something other than a particular category of scribbles on the page. For me it has as much to do with reception and context as anything else. "I wanted to put a bug in your ear" is a cliche of conversation, of course, but when it shows up on an old episode of Night Gallery, it's not the same thing at all. These questions, however, still keep me awake at night: 1) Rather than focusing our aim on increasing awareness of cliches, or placing prohibitions on cliches, shouldn't we be putting our time into encouraging whatever the opposite of cliche is? That is to say. . . if I get a piece of writing that seems so limited in its use of language that every expression is a dead metaphor or a hackneyed expression--the last thing I want to limit that writing further. Or. . .if student writer writes in cliches because some editor-within is telling them to (You must sound like an author to have authority", aren't we giving them another homuncular-editor-within that, rather than wrestling away the first voice, is simply including another voice,(Look, another example of your lack of [author]ity and [able]ity") 2) Is there something developmental at stake here? Do most poets struggle through a period of cliched writing that later embarasses the hell out of them? If so. . .is our role to pre-empt these embarrassments? Or is getting a beginning poet to write with only "original" language similar to getting a basic writer to try and write only in long, complicated sentences? (Note: this is neither a rhetorical question, nor a question which I am stating because I think the answer is "yes." I'm asking if anyone has ever actually done developmental research on student poets, or poets in general? Where would I look?) --Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: WCW in Internet Age Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" got this on a mis-type: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 404 File Not Found I ate your Web page. Forgive me. It was juicy And tart on my tongue. Translation: The URL you requested could not be found on this server. Please don't email us...yet! If you're not sure what to do about this, please read our list of helpful information before emailing webmaster@mit.edu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:13:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Ethics in Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, this is Dodie. I'm going to be teaching Ethics inWriting to undergraduate English majors. I want to cover all the things that get tail feathers ruffled on this list: racism, essentialism, privacy issues, ownership, censorship, Ezra Pound or someone similarly problematic and those issues, exclusion, the problematic use of the word "we"--also need to talk a bit about legal issues. My question is, does anyone have any advice--important essays, books, etc. that would be accessible/interesting to undergraduates? A friend of mine did a search of Aristotle and Ethics on the classics web and sent me her findings. It was brain-death for me, but a starting point. Particularly interesting was the stuff about slaves having no rights . . . Thanks for any input. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:17:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Lopez, Selby at SPT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic presents Tony Lopez Spencer Selby Friday, October 16, 7:30 p.m. New College Theater 777 Valencia Street $5 With False Memory and Negative Equity Tony Lopez's career, hitherto glimpsed in bits and pieces, comes into focus like a shift in the kaleidoscope or my binoculars. His writing makes a person nervous, painfully conscious of the falsities that simplify and abbreviate our lives. But he is a kind master, and provides plenty of pleasure along with the pain. Come on down and show Mr. Lopez a real good time at his first reading in San Francisco. Tony Lopez, born in 1950, has written Snapshots (1976), Abstract & Delicious (1982), A Theory of Surplus Labour (1990), Stress Management (1994) and Negative Equity (1995). His first US book was False Memory published by The Figures in 1996. Recent work appears in many international magazines and in the anthologies Conductors of Chaos, (edited by Iain Sinclair, Picador, 1996) and The Poets Calendar for the Millennium (Sun & Moon, 1997). He teaches in England at the University of Plymouth. Spencer Selby lives in San Francisco. He's the author of five books of poetry, and two more forthcoming (The Big R, Angle Press, and Task, from Zasterle Press), and two of visual poetry, Stigma (Score, 1990, and Malleable Cast (Generator, 1995). He has moved through the experimental formalism of the 80s ("This is the voice of description speaking") into a new and more highly evolved and humanistic version of the "Spencerian stanza," which he invented way back when in his more acerbic, abrasive days. Selby's recent work gives off a palpable warmth and directness that's refreshingly new. This isn't your father's Spencer Selby. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:08:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Lopez, Selby at SPT In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wanted to second the motion that people go to this. Just heard Tony Lopez read in Tucson two nights ago, and he was marvelous, despite the fact that with trans-atlantic, then trans-american, and finally cal-arizona travel, he basically hadn't slept in three days. In addition to what is said here, for Tony Lopez, listen closely -- there's a fireworks in the verbal artistry which is amazing and holds everything together in a quite compelling manner. And, having hears Spencer read a couple of times, I have to say that I'd go again anytime I was within range. And I can only wish that my father had a Spencer Selby. charles >Tony Lopez >Spencer Selby > >Friday, October 16, 7:30 p.m. >New College Theater >777 Valencia Street >$5 > >With False Memory and Negative Equity Tony Lopez's career, hitherto >glimpsed in bits and pieces, comes into focus like a shift in the >kaleidoscope or my binoculars. His writing makes a person nervous, >painfully conscious of the falsities that simplify and abbreviate our >lives. But he is a kind master, and provides plenty of pleasure along with >the pain. Come on down and show Mr. Lopez a real good time at his first >reading in San Francisco. Tony Lopez, born in 1950, has written Snapshots >(1976), Abstract & Delicious (1982), A Theory of Surplus Labour (1990), >Stress Management (1994) and Negative Equity (1995). His first US book was >False Memory published by The Figures in 1996. Recent work appears in many >international magazines and in the anthologies Conductors of Chaos, (edited >by Iain Sinclair, Picador, 1996) and The Poets Calendar for the Millennium >(Sun & Moon, 1997). He teaches in England at the University of Plymouth. > >Spencer Selby lives in San Francisco. He's the author of five books of >poetry, and two more forthcoming (The Big R, Angle Press, and Task, from >Zasterle Press), and two of visual poetry, Stigma (Score, 1990, and >Malleable Cast (Generator, 1995). He has moved through the experimental >formalism of the 80s ("This is the voice of description speaking") into a >new and more highly evolved and humanistic version of the "Spencerian >stanza," which he invented way back when in his more acerbic, abrasive >days. Selby's recent work gives off a palpable warmth and directness that's >refreshingly new. This isn't your father's Spencer Selby. > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:47:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Barbara Guest Reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A reminder that Barbara Guest is reading at 8pm Thursday, Oct 22, at the Residency Hall Auditorium @ Columbia College, Chicago. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:56:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Ethics in Writing dodie in light of the mike barnicle/patricia smith imbroglio, what about touching on plagiarism as well -- for example, what differentiates collaged "found" writing from plagiarism, how should/must you attribute (i.e. "found" words overheard in confidential meeting, can they be used if no attribution? but if no attribution, is that in sense plagiarism?). and of course, my topic for today -- the... CLICHE... as plagiarism. e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:08:12 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Lawrence Subject: Re: try these experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Do you also do six impossible things before breakfast? CHARLES BUKOWSKI Here he is at the window notice the beautiful hands the face an open-cut mine Is he the only poet to beat up his lover do the shopping think twice about dying masturbate abuse his neighbours smoke a pack of cigars drink a pint of bourbon place a bet on the afternoon race fart like a drafthorse write nine poems turn up the stereo answer fan mail get into a streetfight and read For Whom the Bell Tolls before breakfast? And when the cops come (some complaint regarding Beethoven & breaking glass) he'll stand on the bed take a hit of beer & "Cunstanoon afterbles" best Anthony ************************************** Anthony Lawrence Po Box 75 Sandy Bay Tasmania 7006 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:17:39 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Lawrence Subject: Bukowski Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Do you also do six impossible things before breakfast? CHARLES BUKOWSKI Here he is at the window notice the beautiful hands the face an open-cut mine Is he the only poet to beat up his lover do the shopping think twice about dying masturbate abuse his neighbours smoke a pack of cigars drink a pint of bourbon place a bet on the afternoon race fart like a drafthorse write nine poems turn up the stereo answer fan mail get into a streetfight and read For Whom the Bell Tolls before breakfast? And when the cops come (some complaint regarding Beethoven & breaking glass) he'll stand on the bed take a hit of beer & "Cunstanoon afterbles" best Anthony ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:33:05 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: the eternal return MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although outside the ordinary purview of our list, this is some news which may never reach you otherwise. > > BREZHNEV NAME TO RETURN TO POLITICAL SPOTLIGHT? Andrei > Brezhnev, the grandson of former Soviet leader Leonid > Brezhnev, has announced his intention to recreate the > stable times of his grandfather when there was "a middle > class that received 200 rubles a month and had their own > apartments and cars." Brezhnev, 37, told reporters on 14 > October that his party, the All Russian Communist > Movement, advocates the resurrection of "pure > communism," drawing on the experience of former Soviet > leaders Josef Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, and Brezhnev. > The party claims to have 5,000 members in 47 regions in > Russia and plans to participate in parliamentary and > presidential elections, "Komsomolskaya Pravda" reported > on 15 October. According to the "Moscow Times," the > grandson of Khrushchev received an offer to launch a new > political party but declined to do so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:22:32 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Ethics in Writing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: > My question is, does anyone have any advice--important essays, books, etc. > that would be accessible/interesting to undergraduates? > a couple possibilities from some recent reading: _Entre Nous_ a new collection of Levinas, phenomenology of intersubjective ethics. _Excitable Speech_, Butler, "hate-speech", iterability and representing the ethical. mc ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:35:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Good Reads Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello listees. Sitting here under stacks of publications that people have sent me of late, probably assuming that I'd get them reviewed in Rhizome, was struck by the fact that I simply can't run reivews of every chapbook or perfect bound book that comes my way. I'd like to call attention to a couple of things that I've received that are particularly exciting and won't be reviewed in Rhizome, probably not anywhere. Elizabeth Treadwell's The Erratix and Other Stories is a crazy ride through something faintly narrative, but packed with wild detours and short poems, lots of fairytale madness. (Published by Texture Press. PO Box720157 Norman Oklahoma). Another stack that I have is from Guy Bennett's SEEING EYE. He's done chaps of Clark Coolidge (THE BOOK OF STIRS), Lynn Heijian, Mohammed Dibb (simply stunning translations from Paul Vangelisti), and most recently Bob Crosson. The Book of Stirs is one long poem sustained by lots of swing, by far the best of the Coolidge stuff to appear in print lately. Bob Crosson will be in the next issue of MrKnife, MissFork and has been in Rhizome and Ribot most recently but he remains the best kept secret in L.A. although he's been publishing alongside all the Temblor crowd for all this time. This chapbook In Aethers of the Amazon is truly deranged. Crosson comes out of the Stein/Spicer and takes a lot of chances, a lot unusual gambits with diction/syntax, but always swings back with lovely and quotable lines like "To Rabbits it is all rabbits. It is not frogs." The real strength of the SEEING EYE series is Guy Bennett's typography. He knows the difference between desktop publishing and book designing. Other remarkably well-produced books in the series include Catriona Strang and very shortly Eleani Sikleanos. SEEING EYE is located at 12011 Rochester Ave. #9 LA, CA 90025 I don't have Guy's e-mail address but if anyone does, they should post it as I know Guy will take orders that way. (Also, visit the LA Books Web site) Other recent releases of note include the Poetry NY Pamphlet series. Laura Moriarty's Spicer's City is not at all a sentimental homage. Possibly it is my favorite of that series although the Enslin is also very nice. Avec Books has just released Ogling Anchor from Chris Reiner. He really knows his way around the prose peom. Gave a lovely reading here the other day. There's a romantic often surreal feel to these pieces. Also Susan Smith's Nash Dooms Day Belly which is from Trip Street Press and says it is available through S.P.D. AVEC Sampler #2 has outstanding work from George Albon (as to be expected) as well as a long exciting series from Joe Ross, translations of Alferi, a really strong piece from Andrew Joron (that addresses some issues of translation, obliquely) and work by Camille Guthrie who is relatively new to me, but her work is consistently haunting and lyrical. Just want to call attention to this stuff in case people haven't seen it. Like I said, I wish I could get each of these reviewed in detail for Rhizome but this current issue is filled. Please buy that Robert (Bob) Crosson book from SEEING EYE. It is some of the most stirring prose/poetry to be found anywhere. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:06:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: My aurora is idling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am peculiarly ready to say that "I am" seems to sign off a lot on Riding and that Joe Amato might be for the dust off Foucault alert to a cramping or lidding effect that has contained various authors including it seems Riding to author status as if agency was enthralled to its nostalgia. And also I too I too was desperate to attend the Riding event but now having read the posts about it I am not at all sorry I missed it not at all. I have not I that is I have not been taken by anything that has been said so far about the event or about Riding on the No Ads All Hits UBPoetics mesmer. And I am I am I the first to taste the pleasures of pointing to this or to that as the best or the worst of her pleats. May I continue and say continue in May or not it stands to feasible doubt that there is less to say about Riding and more to say about Riding as a dissipated author function as, instead, function as a limit she found a limit she found she thought the limit but she certainly found a limit not Stein's limit either. She founds limits she detected them she incised them on the social space she found and only partly inhabitable. How can you take away that limit finder to bind her to her. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Original Good Reads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This chapbook In Aethers of the Amazon is truly deranged. > I've been trying all day to come up with a real opposite of cliche (one issued raised by Ted Fristrom) and I think "truly deranged" is a pretty good one. Good derangement cannot be taught, though some learn it on their own, whether their early cliches are harshly criticized or not. The D=E=R=A=N=G=E=M=E=N=T school poets have usually never met each other, in fact, some of them have never met anyone at all. -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree with me either, and time just kept on passing." (Henri Michaux) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 04:03:54 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: OUTLAW POETRY Comments: To: Akpoem@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Akpoem@aol.com wrote: > > "Overcome the angry by love > and the evil by good. > > Overcome the greedy by generosity > and liars by truth. > > -the Buddha > > I'm sorry that you no longer believe in the power of poetry to change the > world... > you are not alone in this view. But I am one who believes that it does. > > huh? I simply do not believe in an old cliche-- artist/poet as "outlaw" as a writer I do not position myself OUTSIDE of society-- as the term OUTlaw seems to say--oddly enough-- that one has broken some/thing (a law?)--and that writing a poem for me would not --no--change the world nor would I want it too. Todd Baron (ReMap) ps: poet as outlaw seems so--well--quaint! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:00:46 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: University of Auckland Subject: Re: in the mood... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joe Amato wrote apropos Laura Riding Jackson discussion: > > > these words will no doubt be familiar to many of you---from foucault's > little, (academically) influential 1969 essay, "what is an author?"... i > offer them here not as a corrective to anyone's thinking on the > matter---and certainly not to privilege one way of thinking over another > (and certainly not to condescend to anyone)---but simply with the aim of > suggesting that the discussion of riding-jackson's work in particular would > seem to benefit from an exploration of her status as "author," with quotes > intact---i.e., the way the author-function (foucault's term, in > translation) works in her case... you can go the zizek route too---any > number of critical routes, in fact... but it strikes me that a diverse > array of works (an oeuvre, if you like), in prose and poetry, works that > present us with contradictory intertextual appeals, might benefit from > scrutiny as to the way the or an "author" emerges in our attempts to "get > at" same... it's probably too easy, too, to simply attribute such works to > multiple authors (and this in itself, and as foucault suggests, would > likely become, however multiple, a "constraining figure")... > > a matter of emphasis?---perhaps... no, i don't know quite how to proceed > with regard to riding-jackson in particular, but i can almost get a glimpse > of how one might... One way to proceed is to figure out her authorship of other people's work. Some years ago I edited the selected critical essays of Len Lye, a friend of Laura and Robert in the London and Majorca years. One essay, 'Film-making' which first appeared in Epilogue I in 1935, is co-authored with Laura Riding. In style and in much of its substance it is her work, and a remarkable piece. She also gave Lye a certain permission ( and no doubt some advice) on to produce prose poems, and her Seizin Press published a selection of them. I am aware that during the years in Majorca there were a number of writers in residence writing under pretty close supervision, whose published works from the time do n ot also carry her name. I wonder how much is known of her covert authorship? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: "My" Laura Riding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That Mina Loy piece (I assume you mean Three Moments in Paris) is my *favorite* in Millennium. Seems to live in a space similar to Duras' *Moderato Cantabile* & Elizabeth Bowen's *To the North*. Pierre Joris wrote: > louis stroffolino wrote: > > > . Pierre Joris kept on confusing Riding with Mina > > Loy when I brought her up to him (and put one of her most > > uncharacteristic poems in the MILLENIUM anthology). > > hmm, chris, that wasn't so much confusion as my old frustrated desire to get > one of my students to do a diss on riding & loy (& elsa von F-L). am in fact > still looking for someone to write on that specific troika. and then you go & > do billy shake... btw, over & over 100% besides myself make all the > reperations & preparations worthwhile -- lovely works, > > Pierre > > -- > ======================== > Pierre Joris > joris@csc.albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 > tel: 518 426 0433 > fax: 518 426 3722 > ======================== > All that is not gas is grammar > — Wittgenstein > ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:27:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: "My" Laura Riding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oops, well I see the idiocy of responding before reading the whole post, but hey, a plug for Mina Loy! Karen Kelley wrote: > That Mina Loy piece (I assume you mean Three Moments in Paris) is my *favorite* > in Millennium. Seems to live in a space similar to Duras' *Moderato Cantabile* & > Elizabeth Bowen's *To the North*. > > Pierre Joris wrote: > > > louis stroffolino wrote: > > > > > . Pierre Joris kept on confusing Riding with Mina > > > Loy when I brought her up to him (and put one of her most > > > uncharacteristic poems in the MILLENIUM anthology). > > > > hmm, chris, that wasn't so much confusion as my old frustrated desire to get > > one of my students to do a diss on riding & loy (& elsa von F-L). am in fact > > still looking for someone to write on that specific troika. and then you go & > > do billy shake... btw, over & over 100% besides myself make all the > > reperations & preparations worthwhile -- lovely works, > > > > Pierre > > > > -- > > ======================== > > Pierre Joris > > joris@csc.albany.edu > > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > > 6 Madison Place > > Albany NY 12202 > > tel: 518 426 0433 > > fax: 518 426 3722 > > ======================== > > All that is not gas is grammar > > — Wittgenstein > > ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:49:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: troika...... In-Reply-To: <3625EF25.157092F6@csc.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Pierre--thanks for the kind comments on my poems--- chris On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Pierre Joris wrote: > louis stroffolino wrote: >=20 > > . Pierre Joris kept on confusing Riding with Mina > > Loy when I brought her up to him (and put one of her most > > uncharacteristic poems in the MILLENIUM anthology). >=20 > hmm, chris, that wasn't so much confusion as my old frustrated desire to = get > one of my students to do a diss on riding & loy (& elsa von F-L). am in f= act > still looking for someone to write on that specific troika. and then you = go & > do billy shake... btw, over & over 100% besides myself make all the > reperations & preparations worthwhile -- lovely works, >=20 > Pierre >=20 > -- > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > joris@csc.albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 > tel: 518 426 0433 > fax: 518 426 3722 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > All that is not gas is grammar > =97 Wittgenstein > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:04:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Blake Archive's October Update Comments: To: humanist@kcl.ac.uk, H-CLC@h-net.msu.edu, H-MMEDIA@h-net.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The latest news of work completed here at the Blake Archive. Apologies for cross-posting. Please forward as appropriate. Matt -- 16 October 1998 The editors of the William Blake Archive are pleased to announce the publication of four new electronic editions of Blake's illuminated books. They are: _The Ghost of Abel_ copy A (The Library of Congress) _On Homers Poetry [and] On Virgil_ copies B (The Fitzwilliam Museum) and F (The Pierpont Morgan Library) _Laocoon_ copy B (collection of Robert N. Essick) These three works are Blake's final illuminated books, their composition dateable between 1822 (_The Ghost of Abel_, _On Homers Poetry [and] On Virgil_) and c. 1826-27 (_Laocoon_). In the words of Sir Geoffrey Keynes, they offer Blake's "Last Testament" on subjects ranging from aesthetic theory to political economy, from forgiveness to apocalyptic judgment. A drama in miniature, _The Ghost of Abel_ addresses "Lord Byron in the Wilderness" (plate 1) and, more specifically, the issues of vengeance and forgiveness raised by Byron's _Cain: A Mystery_ (1821). The broadsheet _On Homers Poetry [and] On Virgil_ challenges these representative figures of classical learning, with special emphasis on concepts of unity as an artistic ideal, identity, and the destructive consequences of imperialism. There are five copies extant for each of these works, which, like most of Blake's illuminated books, were produced in relief etching; the _Laocoon_ plate, which is an intaglio etching/engraving, is extant in two copies. Through a careful representation and restoration of the famous Hellenistic sculptural group, Blake attempts to return the _Laocoon_ to its supposed Hebraic origins and its allegorical meanings, revealed by the terse yet intellectually expansive texts with which Blake surrounds the central image. All of these editions have newly edited SGML-encoded texts and are all fully searchable for both text and images and supported by the unique Inote and ImageSizer applications described in our previous updates. We now have twenty-six copies of sixteen illuminated books in the Archive. Late this year and early in the next, we will add _Milton_ copy D and _Jerusalem_ copy E. We will also be adding at least six more copies of _Songs of Innocence and of Experience_, two copies of _Songs of Innocence_, five copies of _The Marriage of Heaven and Hell_, four copies of _The Book of Urizen_, and two copies each of _America, a Prophecy_ and _Europe, a Prophecy_. In addition, by the end of 1998 we will provide a fully-searchable SGML edition of David V. Erdman's _Complete Poetry and Prose of William Blake_. In the coming weeks we will also be opening a brand-new wing of the Archive, consisting of an extensive array of supporting materials: an updated and expanded Plan of the Archive, a statement of Editorial Principles and Methodology, a summary of the Archive's technical design and implementation, a list of Frequently Asked Questions, an in-depth illustrated Tour highlighting the Archive's features and some ways to use its resources, and more. Our hope is that these extensive documentary materials will prove valuable both to our own growing user community as well as to scholars interested in the theory and practice of electronic editing more generally. We will make a separate announcement when these materials are available on the site. Finally, on our recently opened Contributing Collections page, we plan to begin adding color-coded and linked lists of each institution's entire Blake collection to indicate what is and is not in the Archive and what is forthcoming. In addition to providing a convenient index of the scope and contents of the Archive, these lists should also be useful to scholars in planning research trips. Morris Eaves, Robert Essick, Joseph Viscomi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Laura Riding Comments: To: Marjorie Perloff In-Reply-To: <362395D9.3254@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Oct 1998, Marjorie Perloff wrote: > In response to Chris: quite true, I did write a pretty negative piece > on LR for PARNASSUS; the response on the List shows me that this is not > a mag people on this list read, which may be just as well given the Ross > Feld piece and some other nasties in this issue. I took the opportunity > because Herb Leibowitz, the editor, asked me to think about Riding and I > never really had. I spent a lot of time on the work and must say I am > totally mystified as to what anyone sees in her. I hate feeling that > way, given that some of my very favorite poets and critics--including > Charles Bernstein, Jerry McGann, and Susan Schultz admire LR but they > haven't (at least in print) made me see it. I can't stand her abstract > stilted language; more important: I have a really hard time with her > ideas and her poetics! I can see that she is a phenomenon, but.... > > So to me the whole idea of a Riding conference sounds bizarre--but it > may be my blindness. Charles B makes a valiant case for her in the > Intro to her RATIONAL MEANING. > > xxx > Marjorie > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:41:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: OUTLAW POETRY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Reva Wolf, in her book _Any Warhol, Poetry & Gossip in the 1960s_, has a somewhat more subtle take on this topic. Discussing Berrigan's plagarisms (petty crimes) she writes: "The poet, in short, is a criminal because he does not receive a regular payment for his work; his work is illegitimate." As she observes, Berrigan's theft of words was not only metaphorical; being broke -- not having a legitimate job --Berrigan regularly stole books as well, something he incorporates into his idea of who he was as a poet -- sampling, I don't think, is as interesting a practice without the tang of theft attaching to it. --j ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Bows/Bios, Arrows/Eros Comments: To: gps12@columbia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gary, What a lovely post (although it's _apeiron_, and not aporia, although the root may be the same(?)). Love, of course, for Spicer - for whom the 'one night stand' was a thing of the past by the time of what's in the _Collected Books_ - is a serious and tragic issue, perhaps precisely because of this language from which one cannot escape. Language draws distinctions. It parses, separates, supperates. (G. Spencer-Brown's extraordinary thesis in _Laws of Form_: "a universe comes into being when a space is severed or taken apart..."). This, for me, gives rise to magic: "Things fit together. We knew that -- it is the principle of magic. Two inconsequential things can combine together to form a consequence." Spicer, to Blaser, in _Admonitions_ In Olson, for example, (the Olson for whom a faith in coherent cosmology, based in pre-Socraticism, is everywhere apparent) nothing is inconsequential: each unique event is underwritten by a cosmological 'truth'. In Spicer, "nothing" is inconsequential: everything else is like blocks of wood knocking against one another, creating magical truths which are multiple and conflicting - and never resolute. (Heraclitian strife indeed...). (?) I'm still coming to terms with much of your post, but I'll send this along for now, for momentum's sake... Stephen PS- In Nate Mackey's _Bedouin Hornbook_ (the first letter of which is cc'd to Spicer and Lorca), N. recalls a drummer once telling him that "if the harmony of the spheres were to come near me, I'd pop it upside the jaw..." I wonder how this might apply to Spicer, or might describe his stance w/ regard to the wholeness cosmology implies? There's another great passage as well, where N.'s describing a piece of music: "Graspability is a self-incriminating thirst utterly native to every hand, an indigenous court from which only the drowned hope to win acquittal. The piece makes use of two triadic phrases which I call utility riffs: 'Whatever beginnings go back to' and 'an exegetical refusal to be done with desire.' These generate a subtheme which could put as follows: Thirst is by its nature unquenchable, the blue lips of a muse whose refusals roughen our throats with duende." I hope I've not broken orbit here, but might this inform a reading of Spicer? Of the tension of form and formlessness as the crux of erotic law? (Love looking for space before severance, for 'whatever beginnings go back to...")? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:24:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Nobody's Laura (Riding) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From my limited knowledge of L(R)J -- based largely on _Selected Poems in Five Sets_, smatterings of her prose, and what some others have accurately or inaccurately written about her -- I'd guess she'd chafe at the idea of anyone (even Chris S.) appropriating her work/ideas in any remotely "personalized" way -- my, our, whoozit's -- because that approach would contradict her more "universally" apprehensible aspirations. The woman seemed to be mercury -- try to hold her in your hand and she scatters into a zillion pieces: no, she wouldn't mean what you mean her to mean at all, even if she meant to be meant that way originally. But I find her interesting for that very reason. When I was in my grad creative writing program 20 years ago, L(R)J was PNG. A friend of mine who wanted to study her poetry was met with a monolithic (and, if I remember, self-righteous) No; hearing the echo all the way back in my shabby, mouse-ridden apartment, I took the hint and stayed away too. Oh yeah, I snuck a look at her now and then (flashlight under the covers so the Poetry Police wouldn"t catch me) and didn't find much I connected with. But then, as I got used to reading the Objectivists, the Projectivists, Language Poets, un po' dei Novissimi, and other non-representational schools, the L(R)J poems that I ran across became easier to read. I belatedly realized that L(R)J's unique talent to piss *everybody* off is the fun of the paradox. For decades, she undermines the ideas that representational poets and critics -- like realist landscape painters -- have dedicated their lives to: capturing Truth via poetry. Then along comes postmodern indeterminacy and the idea that it's okay not to expect Truth from poetry/language, that in fact such Truth -- if there even is such a thing -- eludes communication by such means ("This is not exactly what I mean/Any more than the sun is the sun" -- uh, Mr. Bronk? Ms. (Riding) Jackson on line 3). Match made in heaven, no? No, because L(R)J still insists that Truth exists, and that its transmission through language is possible, albeit not via poetry. That Absolutist thing again. If I visualize all our 20th-century thinking-about-poetry as an ouroboros, then to me L(R)J marks the point where the serpent has his tail and eats it, too. Like it or not, it's a fairly special (even stimulating) position to occupy. Sure, as Prof. Perloff says, the language of L(R)J's poems can be "abstract" and "stilted," but I've thought the same way about Creeley at various times. And Pound. And St. Gertrude. And Olson. And H.D. And dozens of tweedy 1950/60's formalist poets whose books I keep re-buying at used book sales because I keep forgetting I already had them and didn't like them and actually donated them to the sale to begin with. The Cornell symposium -- the very idea of which Prof. Perloff found "bizarre" -- was really a blast (within restrained academic limits, of course) because all the contradictions surrounding L(R)J's work were together in one room, squeaking and flopping against each other. It was certainly fascinating to me, and I'm not a cult follower by any means. Admire her or not, L(R)J is there like the stone wedged in your roto tiller: eventually you'll have to try to extract it without losing some fingers. -- Fred M. Fred Muratori Reference Services Division Olin - Kroch - Uris Libraries Cornell University fmm1@cornell.edu http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ************************** "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important" -- Jon Ashbery ************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:45:33 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: OUTLAW POETRY Content-Type: text/plain There's a touch of Hermes, patron of thieves, in poets ('tis said). (Mercury gave Apollo his lyre). Maybe it's part of the package... like it or not... contradicting (or supporting?) the message with deviant social behavior... secrecy, passage, a swiftness of mind and hand... >Reva Wolf, in her book _Any Warhol, Poetry & Gossip in the 1960s_, has a >somewhat more subtle take on this topic. Discussing Berrigan's plagarisms >(petty crimes) she writes: "The poet, in short, is a criminal because he does >not receive a regular payment for his work; his work is illegitimate." As >she observes, Berrigan's theft of words was not only metaphorical; being broke >-- not having a legitimate job --Berrigan regularly stole books as well, >something he incorporates into his idea of who he was as a poet -- sampling, I >don't think, is as interesting a practice without the tang of theft attaching >to it. > >--j > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:28:50 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: CFP: "A World of Local Voices", Saarbruecken, Oct 22-23 1999 (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:37:27 +0300 (EET DST) >From: Mikko Keskinen >To: kulttuurintutkimuksen verkosto >Subject: CFP: "A World of Local Voices", Saarbruecken, Oct 22-23 1999 >X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by tukki.cc.jyu.fi id KAA27612 >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ra.abo.fi id KAA21534 > > >CALL FOR PAPERS > >A World of Local Voices: English Language Poetry Today > >Universität des Saarlandes >Saarbrücken, Germany, October 22-23, 1999 > >Today, when the terms of "local vs. global," "center vs. periphery" >are being re-thought and re-defined in all areas of knowledge, >poetry, always the spear-head of the literary avantgarde, is >one of these areas. Poetry, by definition intensely personal >and local, but today increasingly global in its references, >languages, and readership, thus awaits examination from >premises other than purely nationally ori-ented ones. Similarly, >when literature is no longer wielded as a weapon in the cultural >battles of national states, redefinition of critical concepts >is urgently needed. In the future, the term "local," for instance, >would have to transcend national catego-ries, subsuming similar >properties of the identifiably individualistic. > >The common reference of this conference is poetry written in all >the varieties of the English language, including translations. > >We hope to be able to welcome several poets at the conference. > >Please send your proposals for a presentation by March 15, 1999 >to >Prof. Dr. Klaus Martens >Nordamerikanische Literatur und Kultur >FR. 8.3 Anglistik, Universität des Saarlandes >PF 15 11 50 >66041 Saarbrücken >martens@rz.uni-sb.de > >If you have interest in a particular topic worth examining in >more tan one presentation please send your suggestion to the >address above a.s.a.p. Please also indicate whether you would >like to chair the proposed session. > > > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >My new e-mail address is: Jaap.Verheul@let.uu.nl > >Jaap Verheul >History Department, Utrecht University >Kromme Nieuwegracht 66 >3512 HL Utrecht >The Netherlands >tel. +31 30 253 6034 fax. + 31 30 253 6391 >*************************************************************************** > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:57:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pattie McCarthy Subject: Fwd: Philadelphia Poetry Reading Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_908542651_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_908542651_boundary Content-ID: <0_908542651@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_908542651_boundary Content-ID: <0_908542651@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Kjvarrone@aol.com Return-path: To: ALPlurabel@aol.com Subject: Philadelphia Poetry Reading Announcement Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:05:04 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit To all those in and around Philadelphia: 5 Corners Free Poetry Series is pleased to announce: Saturday, October 24th, 7 p.m.: New York poets GARRETT KALLEBERG & HEATHER RAMSDELL read @ GEORGE'S 5th STREET CAFE (5th St. bewteen Lombard & South Sts in Center City) Garrett Kalleberg is the author of *LIMBIC ODES*. His poetry and criticism have appeared in Mandorla, Sulfur, First Intensity, American Letters & Commentary and many other journals. He edits the web poetry journal THE TRANSCENDENTAL FRIEND. Heather Ramsdell is the author of *LOST WAX*, selected by James Tate as one of the winners of the 1997 National Poetry Series competition; the book was recently published by the University of Illinois Press and reviewed in the St. Mark's Poetry Project Newsletter (Oct/Nov issue). The authors' books will be on sale at the reading, as will other local-based poetry magazines and small press issue, including the premier issue of *ixnay* magazine, featuring large selections from many Philadelphia poets. Please join us and bring any small press issue you might have to sell/barter/trade. For questions/directions/info e-mail: Kjvarrone@aol.com Hope to see some of you there. The following are excerpts from Garrett Kalleberg and Heather Ramsdell's poetry: Garrett Kalleberg, from "An Undisturbed Song of Pure Content" There is a thing or there are several things which, recollected, are one thing and this thing is a thought or is a way of thinking or is a way of undergoing in the way that the tree grows in the wind outside the window, in the way that the gate closes and footsteps are carried down the street until the hand is frozen in silence, then scratches away again Heather Ramsdell, from "Surd" I am a hand on an arm, I thought metonymous, at least, but am a bag of parts. Sound falls out of me and in me. It goes, if X, then Z. It says, An antique object fell from these, and did not break or broke. and music says, seductively, permission--a form of imprisonment. persimmon--the fruit of a tree dangles, thus thus verisimilitude, and cannot reconcile itself. These are not things not images not things not matter. Tic tic. A pebble in a tin cup, nothing enough, though no one saw gravity either carry the avalanche into the valley today. --part0_908542651_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:30:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Bows/Bios, Arrows/Eros In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>>What a lovely post (although it's _apeiron_, and not aporia, although the root may be the same(?)) Thank heaven I know this word now. There's a Macintosh shareware game, much like the venerable Centipede, called Apeiron, and we used to sit in the cave huddled around our monitors calling it "ape iron," wondering what on earth was going on in the game designer's head. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:40:46 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: "Centipedes, Gorillas & Burns, bay-bay, Burns" is not a cliche. Sadly, it's a really stupid title for a post. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gwyn! In the mid-80s I was addicted to Centipede and could not, by myself, physically walk away from a Centipede game if I still had quarters in my pocket. But, as to "ape iron" ... you know, Gerald Burns' long poem on narrative ("A Workbook for Readers") begins with an ape (a gorilla, I think) tearing an iron radiator from the wall. (This is the same poem that uses Salt & Pepper for, oh, I'm pretty sure, little signifiers for Subject & Predicate. Maybe?) So, narrative (conflict/as in "war is the king & father of all things"--Heraclitus, again) is that which, violently?, appears "out of nowhere" from misty (play "Gorillas in the Mist" for me, bay-bay) apeiron. A word, Stephen, I totally fucked up in my post cuz I idiotically trusted my memory. Which is (obviously) not so good. Which all leads me to this question: I got a backchannel from William Sylvester about Gerald Burns (Bill wrote on him for the last _House Organ_) and I'm wondering, does anyone else out there read Burns? And does anyone know the fate of The Myth of Accidence? Did he ever finish the 12th book? Did he ever name the 11th? Are there plans to publish it? If you _don't_ read him is it cuz he was, okay, kind of a "difficult" personality? Or cuz you think his writing sucks? Or, like, what? Stephen, thank you SO much for pointing out the swan/sign pun. I'm gonna take your two last posts home with me 2-nite & go back to _Language_ this weekend. Eliza, did you know: Cliche was a printer's term for ready-2-use letter combos (& maybe whole phrases?--Charles Alexander, do you know?). Bye for now, I have a bag of baby carrots to attend to, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:20:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: neutral tunes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can't let this one go. I was glad Henry provided further clarity, because it makes our difference clearer. I withdraw ur-music comment. But why when someone talks of poetic "music", do people so frequently redefine that word to "rhythm" as if no change in the argument had taken place? Melody and beat are obviously inextricably related. The mental concept of stress seems to be formed partly by pitch -- along with duration, loudness, voice quality, pausing, tempo, mental weighting, proactive and retroactive expectation, and various other things. Via pitch and other sonic factors, therefore, melody is a co-partner with rhythm. But if no one would think of reducing a song to its beat, why do so many people do that with poetry? Isn't this one reason why the young are so rarely taught in schools that much poetry works, basically, in the same way as song? I agonise often over these constantly missed chances to turn them on to the craft. The main differences are that poetry has no time signature or tonic system, there is no such thing as a flat note, the intervals are usually smaller than in song, and the tempo is usually more variable. Traditional metrics only partly substitute for this and in my experiments do not impose tempo from one line to the next. To talk of language's division into syllables and reassemblage into words would certainly indicate that a sort of unversality underlay poetic music. Let me agree tentatively that this provides a basis for all spoken poetic music. But it doesn't disrupt either my testing procedures (which are not, I emphasise, "scientific" but merely illustrative) or my sense of neutral tune -- any more than the provision of separate notes on a guitar and their combination into chords decides what tune is played. Or is a better analogy with music's tonic system? I don't know. Whatever these universals are, then, would represent the way language is "strung" and perhaps this, or "language tonicity", limit the (immense) number of permissible combinations of sounds. But, that limitation is at a very far remove, and I'm not so sure the combinations aren't infinite. Will pop music run out of tunes when all mathematical combinations of notes have been run through? Possibly, because the tonic system permits far fewer permissible combinations than language, but even so the number is pretty large. Divisions, syllables (very difficult to delimit, actually), words, yes. Beat yes. The beat in ordinary convresation, however, is not "standard" but depends upon emotional and intellectual stressing of myriad kinds, even though it tries to tend towards isochrony. If we confine the argument to "beat", I'd agree this move towards regularity is influential. But it would not quite get at "neutral tune'". For music is, as always, a creation out of existing elements of sound, and even with a time signature its beat never achieves isochrony -- a good drummer is not a metronome, because pitch and beat are inextricable, flow is inextricable from instant, and feelings influence the pulse of things. In poetry, add much greater freedom of tempo etc., intellectual weighting, and so on. What I'm talking about is the neutral sense that arises from that very mysterious process, and I repeat that it's ineffable, even though I'd agree with Henry that it is influenced in its shaping by syllable (that slightly fluid entity) and word (another entity which can fluidly join onto following words, e.g. via voicing, as I have shown). Doug Henry said: We still seem to be talking at cross-purposes - I'm not suggesting ur-music at all - I'm questioning your testing method. If the process of breaking sounds into syllables & reassembling them as words is universal to language, isn't it possible that this universal is disrupting your experiment? How can you say you detect a "neutral music" underlying variations in performance without taking this into account? That is all I'm saying. The process of syllable- and word-formation might establish a sort of standard rhythm for all speech, which might be what you are hearing - the sameness of the same. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:24:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: neutral tunes In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:20:14 EDT from Doug, all power to your investigations of these ineffable musical qualities. Perhaps the word "neutral" led to my associating music merely with rhythm. However, even if you took pitch etc, into account, it seems like any regularities you discovered beneath variations in performance would have to be balanced against the consideration of possible "sound universals" in all speech. Though you may certainly be onto something - wouldn't you have to show that these were poetic regularities, and not simply measurements of internal constants basic to language itself? - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:13:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Doombook (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII F.Y.I. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:38:29 PDT From: maya gurung To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: Doombook Could you please announce the publication of Doombook by Michael Price from The Figures. Copies can be purchased from the author or The Figures by sending a check for ten dollars (post-paid) to: Michael Price 766 Valencia St. San Francisco, CA 94110 (check payable to Michael Price) or The Figures 5 Castle Hill Great Barrington, MA 01230 (check payable to The Figures) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:17:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: address request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List Folk, I hope someone will be able to give me Juliana Spahr's e mail and/or street address. I will put it to good use. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: D=E=R=A=N=G=E=M=E=N=T MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does D=E=R=A=N=G=E=M=E=N=T bear any relation to renga or the range poets of a few years back? tom bell Laura E. Wright wrote: > > > This chapbook In Aethers of the Amazon is truly deranged. > > > > I've been trying all day to come up with a real opposite of cliche (one issued > raised by Ted Fristrom) and I think "truly deranged" is a pretty good one. > > Good derangement cannot be taught, though some learn it on their own, whether > their early cliches are harshly criticized or not. > > The D=E=R=A=N=G=E=M=E=N=T school poets have usually never met each other, in fact, > some of them have never met anyone at all. > -- > Laura Wright, Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree > with me either, and time just kept on passing." > (Henri Michaux) -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:47:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: address request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Juliana Spahr's email is js@lava.net. sms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:51:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Nobody's Laura (Riding) Jackson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've lurked at the edges of the Laura Riding Jackson conversation these last days, partly because I've never adequately explained to myself why it is I keep reading her poetry. One thing, for sure, has changed in the LRJ reception in recent years. The first MLA panel I ever attended devoted to her work began with the reading of a lengthy and fairly convoluted letter from LRJ, the gist of which seemed to be that she didn't hold out much hope for the endeavor -- I half expected a posthumous posting from the former poet to the recent conference -- LRJ still believed that there was "truth," but that it couldn't be communicated through poetry -- My own sense is that "truth" only exists as a relationship among statements, and is thus as readily available in poetry as anywhere else -- I await her judgement -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:40:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Dan Quisenberry's poetry In-Reply-To: <120c090e.362786b1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A few weeks ago, upon the death of former KC Royal relief pitcher Dan Quisenberry, there was some discussion of his passing, and a passing discussion of his poetry. Here are excerpts from an article that appeared in the Chicago Sun Times, written by Dave Hoekstra. It mentions some of his poetry, and other interesting things about him. "MORE POET THAN PLAYER" Kansas City, Mo.-- The sixth annual Dan Quisenberry Haarvester's Celebrity Golf Classic was held under patchy blue skies last week at Loch Lloyd Country Club, just south of Kansas City. The clouds looked like ice cream cones. Quisenberry died Sept. 30 of brain cancer at age 45. The former Kansas City Royals relief ace was on his way to acclaim as a poet. His first book of peoms, _On Days Like This_ ($12.95) was published in May by Helicon Nine Editions, a non-profit small press. Helicon Nine publisher and editor Gloria Vando Hickok suggested a baseball motif for the cover of _On Days Like This_, which features 100 of Quisenberry's poems, about half of which are about baseball. "We had quite a fight about the cover," Vando Hickok said in her office, which is in a 90 year old house called The Writer's Place. "I thought it would be wonderful to have a cover of Dan or some baseball topic. And he said, 'absolutely not!' He said he'd like a Kansas landscape. We did three mockups from different area artists. This one he liked. The clouds reminded him of ice cream cones." ....The five time American League Fireman of the Year always said the best part of writing baseball poems was that it helped him get over the game. In 1994, Quisenberry became a student in the Wednesday night poetry-writing workshop run by Vando Hickok at The Writers Place. He was one of 14 students sitting in a circle in the former living room of the old house. He was nothing more and nothing less than his fellow writers. "He didn't put on any airs," Vando Hickok said. "He was very generous and considerate of his comments. He wrote some interesting poems, and I showed him 'Night Baseball' a phenomenal poem by (Wichita writer) Michael Blumenthal. He said, 'Well, I have some baseball poems.' He brought them to me. They were so good...." Vando Hickok chose three of Quisenberry's poems and published them in a 1995 pamplet called _Down and In_. Quisenberry's writing carried a rhythm that was seasoned with a rare air of humility. He was an undrafted baseball player who begged for a tryout with the Royals in 1975. As a pet, he understood economy and liked to play around with style.... Quisenberry's poem "Baseball Cards" appears in _Down and In_ and in _On Days like This_. It begins that first baseball card i saw myself in a triage of rookies atop the bodies that made the hill we played king of i am the older one the one on the right game-face sincere long red hair unkempt a symbol of the 70s somehow a sign of manhood you don't see how my knees shook on my debut or my desperation to make it... The poem concludes... i look back at who i thought i was or used to be now, trying to be funny i tell folks i used to be famous i used to be good they say we thought you were bigger i say i was Quisenberry's teammates remember him as an avid reader, but they don't recall him trying to write poetry until afer he retired in 1990. "I've read his poems, and he even put me in a couple, for which I'm flattered," said Willie Wilson, a former Royals and Cubs centerfielder. "He had a gift for words. He was always reading on the plane. He always made us laugh. He made us feel like we were good human beings." Paul Splittorff, the winningest pitcher in Royals history, was one of Quisenberry's teammates from 1979-1984. "Dan was the kind of guy who walked around and noticed the simple things in life" Splittorff said. "I had a feeling he had depth to him when we played. People said, 'Baseball player and poetry?' I told people he was more like a poet than he was a baseball player. He was gracious. He was Gentleman. He was out of character as a relief pitcher. He wasn't intimidating." Qusenberry received his first royalty check in June and planned to teach a poetry workshop this fall. But fate had other plans. Quisenberry made his final public appearance May 30, when more than 30,000 fans at Kauffman Stadium saw him get inducted into the Royals Hall of Fame. Along with his wife, Janie, anad their teenage children, Alysia and David. Quisenberry was active in the Colonial Presbyterian Church in Kansas City, where a memerial service was held the day before the golf tournament. Quisenberry left behind some unpublished poems.... Ice Cream cones melt away, weven when they are drams floaating through the sky, but Quisenberry kept aa solid commitment to family, community and friends. His poems articulate a faith, which is why his spirit would never be diminished. glancing at her husband of twenty-nine years his nose in the sports pages she thinks dosomethingsaysomethingbreaathedammitIcan'ttakethis anymorelife'swaytooshortIgottabe betterthan boxscores he drops the paper, says 'the red sox are out of it, let's go to the hills and pick blueberries" and she thinks Iloveyousomuch ------------------------------------------------------------- Not much along the lines of formal innovation, but I'd like to see one of America's avant-garde poets get three outs in the bottom of the ninth inning of a close game. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "And I remember somebody leaning up against the dirt wall of the hillside, deriding William Carlos Williams, when suddenly there was a loud roaring, crunching noise and a chunk of the hill fell off and covered the person up to his neck. The person, being a young classical poet fresh from NYU, begun screaming that he was being buried alive. Fortunately, the landslide stopped and we dug him out and dusted him off. That was the last time he said anything against William Carlos Williams. The next day he began reading _Journey to Love_ rather feverishly." --Richard Brautigan. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:40:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: in the mood... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit per Alcorn (_Narcissism and the literary libido_, 1994) Foucault also asserts in the same source text that those "aspects of an individual which we designate as an author...are projections of our way of handling texts" As a practitioner I am curious how you (and others) would see these quotes applying (or not) to the phenomenon of "interactive" fiction and poetry on the internet. As "author/participant" I don't see interactivity on the internet as significantly (to my disappointment) different than available in print works? Alcorn also argues that critics are prone to ignore complex theories implied in their use of terms which leads to vagueness in their use of concepts at times. E.g., Lacan and Kristeva are primarily practitioners while those who use their terms are generally neither primarily analysts or poets. tom bell Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: > > yknow typically i read poetics b/c i want insight into, not the critical > apparatus per se, but the more generative side of the > author-text-reader-context continuum... > -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:47:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Aubade, found In-Reply-To: <199810140406.AAA14993@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My hair is up. It is in pleats, it is tied, it has been divided in groups, three of them, and each group has been laid, in sequence, to effect _flowers_. _Free_delineations_ have I drawn upon my world, I arrange these rooms as I wish, introducing curtains against this citys light, doomed city, Priams sorrow. With this sun, a day of labor, working _outlines_ _intertwined_with_one_another_ _without_design_ _and_called_conventional_foliage_. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:58:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hannah J Sassaman Subject: My Poem About Hair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure if this is kosher... do we share poems here? Yes? No? Anyway, here it is. Comments and criticisms more than welcome. Hannah KNOT Who can knot hair like night? (She knows girl- children long for smoothness, neatness. She ties my hair in wet plaits. The tight curls quiet their insistency under the tapestry of night-black braids.) ***************************************************************************** Hannah Jane Sassaman School Address: Home Address: 4009 Pine St. 42 Framingham Lane Philadelphia, PA 19104 Pittsford, NY 14534 (215)-382-3509 (716)-473-1641 Talk not of wasted affection; affection never was wasted. -- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow My father warned me about men and booze, but he never mentioned a word about women and cocaine. -- Tallulah Bankhead ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:25:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: in the mood... In-Reply-To: <3627930A.3076CC9A@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tom, foucault's thinking, in that piece in fact, along with the work of other structuralists and poststructuralists, led george landow some years ago to speculate in precisely the directions you suggest... so rather than offering my thoughts here, i'll simply cite landow's _hypertext: the convergence of contemporary critical theory and technology_ (johns hopkins, 1992; landow cites "what is an author?" four times)... a follow-up volume of essays edited by landow, _hyper/text/theory_ (johns hopkins, 1994), challenges any easy equations between cont. theory and new media... if you've looked at either/both of these and are interested in what we can say *now*, with five more years of web/internet experience under our cultural belt, my apologies for being so pedantic (!)... anyway, i've found both volumes of use in trying to sort out the issues, though the tendency is to deal with narrative rather than poetry... there's lots more 'out there' too... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:16:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Christopher Alexander's Email Address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Does anyone have Chris Alexander's new email address? Chris, if you're reading, please drop me a line. Thanks, Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:38:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Linda Russo Subject: Alexander email, Christopher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter B & all NEW ADDRESSES PLEASE NOTE that i just happened to be slumming the archives chris alexander be at nonce@iname.com 19 Hodge Ave. #9 Buffalo NY 14222 still accepting stuff for nominitive press i believe * * * * Linda Russo lvrusso@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: WCW quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Loath though I am to reveal my ignorance, I'd appreciate it if someone cld backchannel me the source and/or full quote for WCW's "A poem is a machine made of words." I'm delivering a little poetry talk to a captive freshman Intro to Poetry class for a professor of mine (it's Sue Zemka, Maria...) and need it by Tuesday. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:15:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Seeing Eye Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit People looking for Guy Bennett to check out Seeing Eye books can find him at guybnt@idt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: WCW quote Comments: cc: pritchpa@SILVERPLUME.IIX.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" pat-- i asked th same question here about a year ago, for the intro to our site (http://www.burningpress.org/gallery/gallery.html) ov the same name... here's what i got (minus my elisions, sorry 'bout that): Machine Made of Words: "To make two bald statements: There's nothing sentimental about a machine, and: A poem is a small (or large) machine made of words... Prose may carry a load of ill-defined matter like a ship. But poetry is the machine which drives it, pruned to a perfect economy. As in all machines its movement is intrinsic, undulant, a physical more than a literary character... When a man makes a poem, makes it, mind you, he takes words as he finds them interrelated about him and composes them--without distortion which would mar their exact significances--into an intense expression of his perceptions and ardors that they may constitue a revelation in the speech that he uses. It isn't what he says that counts as a work of art, it's what he makes." --William Carlos Williams, from "Authors Introduction to The Wedge" i've always liked that, machines being tools with which we do work... lbd >Loath though I am to reveal my ignorance, I'd appreciate it if someone cld >backchannel me the source and/or full quote for WCW's "A poem is a machine >made of words." I'm delivering a little poetry talk to a captive freshman >Intro to Poetry class for a professor of mine (it's Sue Zemka, Maria...) and >need it by Tuesday. > >Thanks, >Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 04:35:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: neutral tunes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Henry: Many thanks for your last message. Very likely there's an influen= ce from language's internal restraints, but the primary sonic determinants of= the pitch/duration/voicing traces that I obtain are either sub-segmental -- th= e quasi-instant of "stress" in all its ill-defined mystery -- or supra-segme= ntal -- durations of pitch and voicing that often exceed the borders of syllabl= es and can on rare occasions weld almost 9/10ths of a line together. One favourite example of this, is Chaucer's "And bath=E8d every vein in swich licour" which, in Middle English pronunciation, doesn't dislocate voicing = or pitch until "-cour", so that any syllabic effect, or "restraints" syncopat= e within an overall, continuous sounding. Similarly, Wyatt's "So unwarely w= as never no man caught", which I've referred to, will not dislocate until "caught" if a reader is sensitive to the possibilities of continuous voici= ng in the earlier part of the line. This voicing possibility is perhaps a hi= nt of your restraints, but other readers (less sensitive, perhaps) don't alwa= ys profit from it and make an unnecessary intonation break which spoils the l= ine very slightly. If you drone the voicing continuously and also undulate th= e pitch of "So unwarely was never no man" (making a "z" out of "was" to keep= the voicing), you can create a sudden and tiny effect of the poet being "caugh= t" at the end of the line, when the voicing necessarily breaks to create the transition from "n" to back-of-throat "c". This slightly accentuates the meaning and emotional significance of the line. But rather than "restraint= s" there, I prefer to speak of possibilities the language voicing "code" crea= tes for a performer to exploit. That is, they are not so much "poetic regularities" as possibilities exploited in similar ways by different performers, whose interpretations roughly converge in that way. Various modern poetries, turning perhaps against the lyric, may not be approachable by such investigations as mine. That's fine by me: I like al= l exploration in poetics, philosophy and, no doubt, political viewpoint. I would merely note that every sonic element I look at occurs in ordinary conversation and prose as well as in poetry. And as far as I know, no poe= try -- whether Chinese, Thai, Bengali, French, German, Sanskrit, or English ev= en in its anti-lyric or randomesque forms -- can be free of the following factors: pitch, stress, duration, voicing, voice quality, loudness. Even = if you say, "This poem is not for reading aloud", the mouth (it has been show= n) will make those premonitory muscular movements as though you were about to read aloud. Perhaps you could demonically train your subconscious not to = act that way: I don't know! Anyway, those sonic factors, plus meaning and emotional significance, are what I study. I don't want to preoccupy listees as a whole with my obsessions. But if y= ou were interested, I could send you photocopies of what these tunes look lik= e. Just e-mail me an ordinary mail address. Within reason, that offer is als= o open to any other listees wanting to satisfy more than idle curiosity. Best Doug ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 02:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: fraser/bromige sf reading//fractals of a devoted disorderer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listafarians, apologies for the late posting of this, a posting probably too late for you to cancel your garden parties, polo matches, or charity work tomorrow at 5:15 when Kathleen Fraser will address the mob at the Attic Club (or Bar or Pub?), just metres west of Mission on 24th St. I David Bromige will take up part of the program. I regret the tardiness of this instigation. Its been one of those weeks. A fine one. What I need is a volunteer to help me with these items. Someone whose intelligence I surely cannot afford. Ah well. I wont say "*see* you there," because the Attic is a dark, dive bar where, it is rumored, there are those who still smoke therein, flouting California law in the transgressive spirit of Poetry, while remaining safely invisible. I envy them. PS Do you notice how many DJs say "see you next week" on the air? "To see" bleeds, doesnt it? Are you "seeing" someone right now? See what I mean? D. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:09:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Tony Lopez reading in Maryland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing a reading -- HIGHLY RECOMMENDED: TONY LOPEZ reading October 19, Monday, at 2pm Montgomery College Rockville Campus Science West, Room 122 Manakee Street (not sure I am spelling the street right) Rockville, Maryland Tony Lopez was born in 1950 and grew up in Brixton, South London. He began working as a freelance on short stories for newspapers and magazines in the 1970s and published five crime and science fiction novels with New English Library between 1973 and 1976, when he gave up fiction writing and returned to school. He attended the University of Essex (BA 1980) and Gonville & Caius College, University of Cambridge (PhD 1986). During the 1980s he was involved in various performance art events, staged in Britain and Europe. He has published many books and pamphlets of poetry, including Snapshots (1976), Change (1977), The English Disease (1979), A Handful of British Birds (1982), Abstract & Delicious (1983), A Theory of Surplus Labour (1990), Stress Management (1994), and most recently Negative Equity and Other Poems (1995). A selection of his poetry is included in the Picador anthology Conductors of Chaos (1996) edited by Iain Sinclair. He teaches in England at the University of Plymouth. from the poem "Non-Core Assets" They took a shadow and laid it in the straw. Let it be rough and ready to make a reality Deft, restless and unpredictable. Thus they rode Through Norwich in every sort of fantastic dress. Reason explained that good living was now over, Time itself at hand. Lights, lanterns and fires Burning in the woods. Damp air, shell-suit trousers, Light blue sweatshirt, green padded jacket: the subject Of this attack unknown. If you have no wire, Roll newspapers into spirals, tie the ends together In white cloth and herring skins. Thence souls in torment Who do enter into these family customs In schools, clubs, or any organisation. Among the straw cut-out is something of the truth. They are like straight unwinding roads that lead Into eternity. When we launch a car We like to drop it. Root nourishing shampoo: Dolphins ascending a water staircase. Big coat and grip, gondola wedding, Big coat and away through Lombardy poplars. I find we have plenty of opportunities For listening to speech, yet few people take them: We need practical ways of securing resonance. Urizen is at home on the world wide web Sending pulses of self-indulgent grief echo To measure your file space without hiring new staff. A stretched limo floats over a crimson sunset I never knew he missed driving so much. charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:51:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Confessions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Confessions I pulled the second trigger at the Kennedy assassination. It was me got Shorty. I violated those kids. Them heterosexuals were mutilated by me, the ones in Panama. I didn't know but I had the gun. And I gave Mrs. Kennedy cancer, the kind that killed her. I ran two against three at Belmont but skimmed off the bottom and got to win place. Got my semen on her fur but what was she doing on the IRT. I pulled the second trigger at the Martin Luther King assassination. Now I got your attention, you got to believe me. It was me who done Brinks. Maybe you don't think I'm serious. See, I'm dead serious. I wrote kike in Lewiston on the school ground there. It makes a difference with a kid. You can look a kid in the eye. Kids are honest. Did some swastikas too. But I set the explosives in the truck. I don't need to explicate, you know what truck I mean. Look, I don't have anything personal against them. But I don't need to eh. Was me raped that tourist in Orlando, she looked at me funny. I don't get orders I give them. I got no truck with punks. They'd set deadeye on you without thinking but no control. Like that time in Larrabee, one of them's still looking for his mama, other don't say nothin or maybe can't. You can't tell cause I look just like you. Maybe a kid can tell. Maybe a kid is dead. _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:32:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Plath-Hughes Legacy In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981015070941.006bc568@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Last Saturday's _Irish Times_ has it that Frieda Hughes, daughter of T & S, will publish her first book of poetry in the near future. Her publisher is Bloodaxe. Her work has appeared recently in a Faber anthology. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:15:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Franklin Bruno Subject: burns (and other things) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gary Sullivan wrote: >Which all leads me to this question: I got a backchannel from William >Sylvester about Gerald Burns (Bill wrote on him for the last _House Organ_) >and I'm wondering, does anyone else out there read Burns? And does anyone >know the fate of The Myth of Accidence? Did he ever finish the 12th book? >Did he ever name the 11th? Are there plans to publish it? If you _don't_ >read him is it cuz he was, okay, kind of a "difficult" personality? Or cuz >you think his writing sucks? Or, like, what? I don't have any answers to the above questions, but I'll pipe up as a reader. I find Burns' writing (I don't know anything about his personality) difficult, in the best sense of that word, and better in small doses (a few poems at a time from -Shorter Poems-, for example). I particularly take to heart his complaint in -A Thing About Language- that many of the language poets rarely use a noun that can't be found in -People- magazine. His own work is of course full of such nouns; there's an observational (even phenomenological) closeless to much of his poetry that I value, even when I don't know quite what it adds up to. I don't know what to make of his claims that his poems were written in complicated weighted metrics; I can't read any such thing out of the poems, but, hey, I don't really understand the variable foot either. Odd note--he was quoted, a few mos. before his death, in either -Time- or -Newsweek- as thinking, when he read the -Unibomber Manifesto- in the paper, that its Kantian strains sounded a lot like his old Harvard classmate Ted Kozinski (sp?). I too would be interested in hearing about any plans to publish Burns' work posthumously. Oh, while I'm here, could someone tell me how to get in touch (by phone or e-mail) w/ Coffee House Press? Backchannel fine. Oh, oh: Anyone read the David Lehman book on JA/FOH/KK/JS? fjb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 06:11:13 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: burns (and other things) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dip into Burns every once in a while, and think he's A-1. I recently read William Sylvester's piece on Burns's *Freud and Picasso* (or vice-versa) in *House Organ* and found it absorbing reading. Will be mentioning it, briefly, in my next column for *Small Press Review*. As for the Lehman book about what Lehman with incredible fatuousness titles *The Last Avant- Garde*, I haven't read it but HAVE read a review of it in *The New Criterion* by John Simon, the only widely-published poetry critic in this country more obtuse and behind-the-times than Lehman. Quite a laugh. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 09:58:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: Tony Lopez reading in Maryland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And for those of you in New York, mark your calendars: Tony will be reading at The New School for Social Research Monday, October 26, at 6:30 p.m. -- 66 West 12th Street, 5th floor. A don't-miss! >Announcing a reading -- HIGHLY RECOMMENDED: > > >TONY LOPEZ >reading October 19, Monday, at 2pm >Rockville, Maryland > >Tony Lopez was born in 1950 and grew up in Brixton, South London. He began >working as a freelance on short stories for newspapers and magazines in the >1970s and published five crime and science fiction novels with New English >Library between 1973 and 1976, when he gave up fiction writing and returned to >school. He attended the University of Essex (BA 1980) and Gonville & Caius >College, University of Cambridge (PhD 1986). During the 1980s he was involved >in various performance art events, staged in Britain and Europe. He has >published many books and pamphlets of poetry, including Snapshots (1976), >Change (1977), The English Disease (1979), A Handful of British Birds (1982), >Abstract & Delicious (1983), A Theory of Surplus Labour (1990), Stress >Management (1994), and most recently Negative Equity and Other Poems (1995). >A selection of his poetry is included in the Picador anthology Conductors of >Chaos (1996) edited by Iain Sinclair. He teaches in England at the University >of Plymouth. > >from the poem "Non-Core Assets" > >They took a shadow and laid it in the straw. >Let it be rough and ready to make a reality >Deft, restless and unpredictable. Thus they rode >Through Norwich in every sort of fantastic dress. >Reason explained that good living was now over, >Time itself at hand. Lights, lanterns and fires >Burning in the woods. Damp air, shell-suit trousers, >Light blue sweatshirt, green padded jacket: the subject >Of this attack unknown. If you have no wire, >Roll newspapers into spirals, tie the ends together >In white cloth and herring skins. Thence souls in torment >Who do enter into these family customs >In schools, clubs, or any organisation. >Among the straw cut-out is something of the truth. > >They are like straight unwinding roads that lead >Into eternity. When we launch a car >We like to drop it. Root nourishing shampoo: >Dolphins ascending a water staircase. >Big coat and grip, gondola wedding, >Big coat and away through Lombardy poplars. >I find we have plenty of opportunities >For listening to speech, yet few people take them: >We need practical ways of securing resonance. >Urizen is at home on the world wide web >Sending pulses of self-indulgent grief echo >To measure your file space without hiring new staff. >A stretched limo floats over a crimson sunset >I never knew he missed driving so much. > >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > > Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:42:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Lehman & the last avant garde MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought Lehman's book was pretty good for what it was meant to be, and should help to introduce those writers to a broader audience. I know some people don't believe that is a noble goal, and I agree that its alright if someone doesn't want to read poetry. But I also like to share or propagandize on behalf of art & literature & music (and food and travel and other pleasures of peace) that I have enjoyed, so I think its worth trying. It's a great book for a high school senior or college freshman interested in poetry. Does anyone object to Lehman's reading of the the poems or poets? I suppose someone might object to his downplaying of O'Hara's sexuality (in an attempt to rebalance after the Gooch biography), but of course O'Hara's poetry has delighted plenty of non-homosexuals. Lehman emphasizes the pleasure that the NY school poets found and took in writing and reading and in art and in life, and, being old fashioned, I think those are good things. Is it possible that someone on the list will disagree with me? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:19:37 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Lehman & the last avant garde MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, I expect to enjoy the Lehman book on the New York school poets--as I enjoyed the Gooch book on O'Hara. The problem with books like Lehman's, and with his "Best Poems" anthologies, is not that they are particularly stupid but that they ignore so much that is far better than what they are about or contain. Why write about four mediocrities who were tepidly "experimental" in the manners of Eliot and Williams (paraphraxis and super-demotic diction) some FORTY years or so ago when there are SEVERAL REAL avant-gardes going on in poetry RIGHT NOW that could use a book about them? --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:36:37 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: whitman got fired too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper on WHitman and Washington scandals. todd baron (remap) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:39:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: fwd from nettime announcer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [notice that they are trying to make an online compilations of small presses] From: Trace Subject: A New trAce Website and a New trAce Community Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 15:25:05 +0100 The trAce site has been enlarged and redesigned, and our online community is now open. Take a look at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk or check out the following special pages: The new trAce Community is now open. http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/portal2.htm Just a few days before the first anniversary of the opening of the trAce Mailbase list we are pleased to announce our new Online Community. Now, instead of a single conversation, we offer a variety of online conferences plus your own homepage and a host of other features. There are four conferences with more to be added as time goes on. We invite you to join and participate in the new expanded community where there is room for every point of view. Map added to Noon Quilt http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/quilt/map/index.html There is now a Noon Quilt Map showing the locations of all contributions. After two weeks online and contributions from 18 countries the Quilt is almost full. Interest has been intense and submissions are still coming in steadily from everywhere. It closes on 23rd October so there is still time to contribute, but will we be forced to stitch another to fit everyone in? Decisions must be made! Calling Small Presses trAce is putting together a list of small presses from around the world. If you would like to be featured as part of this resource list, contact Carolyn Bamborough (carolyn.bamborough@ntu.ac.uk). We will link to your url, or create a basic page of information for you to display online. Writers & the Internet Conference 16 October 1998 http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/eastm/conf.htm Just a few days left until the first trAce Day Conference featuring an international line-up of guests including Dale Spender and Mark Amerika. The conference takes place on Friday 16 October 1998 at the Broadway Media Centre, Nottingham, England. __________________________________________________ >trAce international online writing community >http://trace.ntu.ac.uk trace@ntu.ac.uk >Faculty of Humanities, Nottingham Trent University, Clifton Lane, >Nottingham NG11 8NS UK >phone: ++ 44 (0)115 948 6360 fax: ++ 44 (0)115 948 6364 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:10:21 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: Laura (Riding) Jackson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, as lisa says "she didn't denounce so much as renounce poetry, as people have pointed out in various articles. but she did not repudiate her old work. " She does not regret her own work but rather acknowledges the inherent flaws in poetry itself. In the back of collected poems there is an interview with her which clarifies the matter. I would not consider the time she spent writing poetry to be a particularly long time expecially by comparision to the nearly 50 years she spent mounting her opposition. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:11:30 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: bloody twin press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pavement Saw Press is proud to announce they will now be the US distributor for Bloody Twin Press Each of the books listed below are letterpress limited editions, and are handbound as the orders are received to ensure the freshness of the title. The special price listed is for members of the poetics list & should be mentioned when ordering. If there are questions regarding specific papers used (handmade and/ or imported), cover artists and the like, feel free to backchannel me. Boxed broadside set, all oversized & frameable includes Tom Clark, Ed Dorn, Joel Lipman, Howard McCord, Nick Muska, Brian Richards, and Joe Sheffler, $50 Theodore Enslin, Music in the Key of C, 32pp ,$15 Tom Clark, Apocalyptic Talkshow, 24pp, $15 Anne Waldman, Tell me about it: Poems for painters, 24pp, $15 Cover drawing by George Schneeman Steve Kowit, Pranks, 24pp, $12 Howard McCord, The Duke of Chemical Birds, 32pp, $15 Christy Sheffield Sanford, Bride Thrashing Through History, 24pp. $12 Christy Sheffield Sanford, The H's: Spasms of a requiem, 24pp. $12 Skip Fox, Wallet, 24pp, $20 Skip Fox, Kabul Under Seige, 32pp, $30 Carl Thayler, The Drivers (2nd Series), 24pp. $10 Brian Richards, Early Elegies, 30pp, $15 Earl Butler, Zero Bonding, 32pp, $50 David Canalos, Mad National Geogery, 40pp, $25 Joel Lipman, Provacateur, 24pp. $12 Gogisigi / Carroll Arnett, Spells, 28pp. $15 Lynne Walker, Big Red Burns, 24pp. $20 Joe Sheffler, Dirty Dogs: Poems out of Asia, 48pp. $50 As the titles run scarce the price will rise. US orders enclose $2, Canada $3, others $4. All checks payable to Bloody Twin Press. Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6192 Columbus OH 43206 Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:46:12 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Detail from Wallet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pavement Saw Press is proud to announce a new title from Bloody Twin Press Skip Fox's, Wallet, 24pp, $20. A serial piece, sample below. and Spicer's radio. Deep space. "The Primitive does not reveal the radical (though he may resemble it). How many words does the eskimo have for snow? Whence the cold beneath the wind? Ganik, the ghost within the storm, and aput, ghost on the ground. (Or would it depend on the eskimo?) And why the desire for 17? They are as they are. And we as we. Believing man might inhabit the land, not merely live on or off it. Dwell therein. As in ear or mind. Attentive to the purely possible. (How many do you have for ghost?) As though you could tune into a tern as it oils its wings. Or a word that rises from the root. The bodiless serpent climbs into the most desolate regions of the sky. Flaches above the raw flesh eater on his floe. It casts an eerie correspondence on the notion of what is--where resemblance disappears into identity, spirit into newly fallen snow. Includes pieces which first appeared in House Organ, lower limit speech, New Orleans Review, and Oasii Broadside series 125 copies, letter press edition, handbound, two color pressing, cover paper imported from france & handmade. The price is $20 to folks who mention this posting. As the titles run scarce the price will rise. Also available by Skip Fox, Kabul Under Seige, 32pp, $30 US orders enclose $2, Canada $3, others $4. All checks payable to Bloody Twin Press. Mail to: Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6192 Columbus OH 43206 Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: whitman got fired too Comments: To: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap In-Reply-To: <362A4345.7453@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Berman's piece was a pleasure, but a limited one. Information and analysis were all derived from David Reynold's "Walt Whiteman's America," a fine historicizing (though, in terms of poetry, only narrowly interpreted) cultural biography of the all-time champ. Berman's piece could have used a little tip of the hat to its source -- it smacked too much of book report or a hash job (as if no one would notice). Still, it was good to see it -- and the fact that such an outrageous poet remains the national poet (as Clinton would testify) is a wonderful, comforting thought. However, in terms of both Reynold and Berman, I would still like to see more about the poems themselves, particularly the still-radical and disturbing democratic/totalitarian eruption of the 1855 edition. Hilton Obenzinger On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper > on WHitman and Washington scandals. > > todd baron > (remap) > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:21:38 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: whitman got fired too MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hilton Manfred Obenzinger wrote: > > Berman's piece was a pleasure, but a limited one. Information and > analysis were all derived from David Reynold's "Walt Whiteman's America," > a fine historicizing (though, in terms of poetry, only narrowly > interpreted) cultural biography of the all-time champ. Berman's piece > could have used a little tip of the hat to its source -- it smacked too > much of book report or a hash job (as if no one would notice). Still, it > was good to see it -- and the fact that such an outrageous poet remains > the national poet (as Clinton would testify) is a wonderful, comforting > thought. However, in terms of both Reynold and Berman, I would still like > to see more about the poems themselves, particularly the still-radical > and disturbing democratic/totalitarian eruption of the 1855 edition. > > Hilton Obenzinger > > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > > > today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper > > on WHitman and Washington scandals. > > > > todd baron > > (remap) > > for more on the poems see DH LAWRENCE definitely NOT a newspaper article on the pres.! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 03:09:38 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Tom Bridwell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Been absent for a few days. Wanted to report on a reading I was at in Portsmouth Ohio at Teeny's, third thursday of each month. The main reader was Tom Bridwell who read ten pieces from a new book_Notes from the Cistern_. No publisher yet. The book is a massive serial work, 110 pages (after 56 were discarded), incredibly dense material written in a six month period holed up in Virginia. Reoccuring themes of construction, food, Beckett, drinking, eating, drugs, roadkills, Wittgenstein, Levi-Strauss, a human joint maker, sex, texts, properly prepared roadkills, building a building, surfaces, mixes thereof and dozens of others done primarily in prose with a scarcity of poems interspersing. I can't find small areas to quote that I am satified with but here goes: "Lay the knots open. Tension keeps the cords taut, the ends fall away soon enough. Sense is seldom unveiled. Were She standing before you, naked, the lateness of the hour or some things pressing would preclude the sight. It bears repeating." "I've signed away everything that was mine. I'm as uncomfortable as I can be. But I do, by god, twitch. If this is a test, for those of you with your notebooks, be clear about that: he did twitch. " His intensity frightened the hell out of two tables of old ladies near the front. Hell, his reading scared everyone there which is amazing considering that, except for a few minor exceptions, it was lacking emotional changes in timber and tone. Not including the folks who had to listen out in the street, the audience inside was counted at 67 including Joe Napora, Bob Fox, Darren Baker, Ralph LaCharity, Brian Richards and myself. Non-featured readers included Ralph LaCharity who bears similarities to Chuck Stein but it's a lot more phonetically complicated. He is a phenomenal reader & has this set of pieces where he says "I am going to do a poem and if I do it correctly you will hear TWO languages at the same time. The first will be a vernacular of English from south California. The second you will hear is modern Greek." Then he pulls it off. Its amazing. Heads up Boston folks he is hitting all the open mike readings out there starting the 24th of this month. I read a few and was amazed at how the waitstaff was chastizing patrons for not being silent during the readings, especially when Ralph was reading. Brian Richards ended the reading with a phenomenal piece, _Talking at Teeny's_ I loved the lines "What may be said is a piton in the face / of Mount Nonsense, part of a specific problem" and ends with: Do you like sports? Then be one. Buy me a drink. Buy everyone a drink; the hostess needs the business. Give her the business. Give us all time to think about it over a fresh one: cool. And the merriment went long into the night after and after, got home saturday. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Plath-Hughes Legacy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 17 Oct 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Last Saturday's _Irish Times_ has it that Frieda Hughes, daughter of T & > S, will publish her first book of poetry in the near future. Her > publisher is Bloodaxe. Her work has appeared recently in a Faber > anthology. I saw the American version in a bookstore on Friday. The title is one word, begins with a W., very Hughesian. Published in the States, I think, by FSG. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: coolidge/hejinian/rova/soule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As promised, a report of sorts on the conference here at the University of Iowa last week, on Composition & Improvisation, featuring Lyn Hejinian, Clark Coolidge, Rova Saxophone Qrt., and painter Tom Soule. I had the pleasure of meeting other list members who'd made the trip to attend some of the events & it's my hope that they will add to this "report" -- substantiate it . . . The first conference consisted of poets, with poetry workshop students mostly in attendance. Coolidge recounted some anecdotes re: the improvisatory nature of the NYSchool scene of which he was part, saying it was considered polite to edit and/or amend the work (inevitably) in progress laying out or sitting in the typewriter at parties. Making reference, obviously, to the emphasis on process over product, and citing the term "work" as preferred over "poem", &tc. He read, at the request of Marvin Bell, work from _The Rova Improvisations_ Lyn Hejinian asserted from the offset, improvisation as "entirely in the medium of referral," "in time," and for her purposes always with reference to the page (prior works/the other...). When improvising one seeks resistence, one "volunteers to doubt", one engages correspondence -- Jorie Graham asked how this is different than the work "we" do everyday, Hejinian responding, with something to the effect of, responding to Hopkins, say, is not improv. by virtue that Hopkins safely has no response, himself. This led to discussion of improvisatory strategies, which Rova picked up on the next day. Using the example of a new work-in-progress entitled "Radar", the four Rovas discussed the hand signals or cues that compose the piece. That is, hand signals (which any one of the band members may offer up at any time) represent improvisatory strategies which they have titled accordingly, "micro-tonal groan", "machine sounds", "the wave" [this one just like the auditorium game, in their case passing a riff along to the edge of the horseshoe/mixing that up/sending it back] . . . Thus, the Rovas perform a "Radar", will one day record some "Radars" -- indeed, their encore at the concert Friday night consisted of two "Radars" Coolidge and Hejinain read Thursday night. Hejinian began with a long (specially edited version) of "A Border Comedy" -- a piece she had earlier explained arose out of improvisatory experiments conducted with the poet Jack Collum (sp?). W/ "A Border Comedy", she used forgetfulness as a correspondent, writing several lines, setting aside, later adding more lines; she improvised with herself. Coolidge read many shorter pieces, highly comical["poets go ape shit when they see themselves coming"], employing neologistic verbs that inevitably gave the impression that someone was whispering to you while chewing on potatoes chips, and you were to gather what you could . . . what could a term such as "rurtch" mean? Besides Baraka, these are two of the best readers I have come across. Unfortunately, I missed Tom Soule's presentation on 20th Cent.. Painting Aspiring to Music . . . anyone there for this? The gist of the rest of the proceedings, however, was in the perhaps impossible task of delineating between composition and improvisation. Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:00:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Paris Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If anyone is going to be in Paris in the next few weeks, you might want to check out this reading: Keith Waldrop, Cydney Chadwick, Rosmarie Waldrop at the Village Voice Bookstore (an English language bookstore). Tuesday, November 3rd, 7 p.m. 6 rue Princesse, 75006, tel. 33 1 46.33.36.47. Metro: St. Surplice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: LAURA's WORD "WOMAN" -- & hey, does it correspond. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, OK, I'm simply playing the role of questioner, having only read 3 of her books and only dipped into the Progress of, and not used to being a lecturer but a lecturee. I am wondering if the person(s) who mentioned THE WORD WOMAN could please say more about it. Then maybe I'll try my hand. with a fake fur faux pas, Elizabeth >Subject: Re: Laura (Riding) Jackson > >Elizabeth, as lisa says "she didn't denounce so much as renounce >poetry, as people have pointed out in various articles. but she did not >repudiate her old work. " She does not regret her own work but rather >acknowledges the inherent flaws in poetry itself. In the back of >collected poems there is an interview with her which clarifies the >matter. I would not consider the time she spent writing poetry to be a >particularly long time expecially by comparision to the nearly 50 years >she spent mounting her opposition. > >Be well > >David Baratier > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:11:30 +0000 >From: David Baratier >Subject: bloody twin press > >Pavement Saw Press is proud to announce they will now be the US >distributor for Bloody Twin Press > >Each of the books listed below are letterpress limited editions, and are >handbound as the orders are received to ensure the freshness of the >title. The special price listed is for members of the poetics >list & should be mentioned when ordering. If there are questions >regarding specific papers used (handmade and/ or imported), cover >artists and the like, feel free to backchannel me. > >Boxed broadside set, all oversized & frameable includes Tom Clark, Ed >Dorn, Joel Lipman, Howard McCord, Nick Muska, Brian Richards, and Joe >Sheffler, $50 > >Theodore Enslin, Music in the Key of C, 32pp ,$15 >Tom Clark, Apocalyptic Talkshow, 24pp, $15 >Anne Waldman, Tell me about it: Poems for painters, 24pp, $15 > Cover drawing by George Schneeman >Steve Kowit, Pranks, 24pp, $12 >Howard McCord, The Duke of Chemical Birds, 32pp, $15 >Christy Sheffield Sanford, Bride Thrashing Through History, 24pp. $12 >Christy Sheffield Sanford, The H's: Spasms of a requiem, 24pp. $12 >Skip Fox, Wallet, 24pp, $20 >Skip Fox, Kabul Under Seige, 32pp, $30 >Carl Thayler, The Drivers (2nd Series), 24pp. $10 >Brian Richards, Early Elegies, 30pp, $15 >Earl Butler, Zero Bonding, 32pp, $50 >David Canalos, Mad National Geogery, 40pp, $25 >Joel Lipman, Provacateur, 24pp. $12 >Gogisigi / Carroll Arnett, Spells, 28pp. $15 >Lynne Walker, Big Red Burns, 24pp. $20 >Joe Sheffler, Dirty Dogs: Poems out of Asia, 48pp. $50 > >As the titles run scarce the price will rise. >US orders enclose $2, Canada $3, others $4. All checks payable to Bloody >Twin Press. > >Pavement Saw Press >PO Box 6192 >Columbus OH 43206 > >Be well > >David Baratier > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 14:46:12 +0000 >From: David Baratier >Subject: Detail from Wallet > >Pavement Saw Press is proud to announce a new title from Bloody Twin >Press >Skip Fox's, Wallet, 24pp, $20. A serial piece, sample below. > > >and Spicer's radio. Deep space. "The Primitive does not > > >reveal the radical (though he may resemble it). How many >words does the eskimo have for snow? Whence the cold >beneath the wind? Ganik, the ghost within the storm, and aput, >ghost on the ground. (Or would it depend on the eskimo?) And why >the desire for 17? They are as they are. And we as we. Believing >man might inhabit the land, not merely live on or off it. Dwell >therein. As in ear or mind. Attentive to the purely >possible. (How many do you have for ghost?) As though >you could tune into a tern as it oils its wings. Or a word that >rises from the root. The bodiless serpent climbs into the most desolate > >regions of the sky. Flaches above the raw flesh eater on >his floe. It casts an eerie correspondence on the notion of what >is--where >resemblance disappears into identity, spirit into newly fallen snow. > > >Includes pieces which first appeared in House Organ, lower limit speech, >New Orleans Review, and Oasii Broadside series > >125 copies, letter press edition, handbound, two color pressing, cover >paper imported from france & handmade. The price is $20 to folks who >mention this posting. As the titles run scarce the price will rise. Also >available by Skip Fox, Kabul Under Seige, 32pp, $30 > >US orders enclose $2, Canada $3, others $4. All checks payable to Bloody > >Twin Press. > >Mail to: >Pavement Saw Press >PO Box 6192 >Columbus OH 43206 > >Be well > >David Baratier > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:58:50 -0700 >From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger >Subject: Re: whitman got fired too > >Berman's piece was a pleasure, but a limited one. Information and >analysis were all derived from David Reynold's "Walt Whiteman's America," >a fine historicizing (though, in terms of poetry, only narrowly >interpreted) cultural biography of the all-time champ. Berman's piece >could have used a little tip of the hat to its source -- it smacked too >much of book report or a hash job (as if no one would notice). Still, it >was good to see it -- and the fact that such an outrageous poet remains >the national poet (as Clinton would testify) is a wonderful, comforting >thought. However, in terms of both Reynold and Berman, I would still like >to see more about the poems themselves, particularly the still-radical >and disturbing democratic/totalitarian eruption of the 1855 edition. > >Hilton Obenzinger > >On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > >> today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper >> on WHitman and Washington scandals. >> >> todd baron >> (remap) >> > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 06:21:38 +0000 >From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap >Subject: Re: whitman got fired too > >Hilton Manfred Obenzinger wrote: >> >> Berman's piece was a pleasure, but a limited one. Information and >> analysis were all derived from David Reynold's "Walt Whiteman's America," >> a fine historicizing (though, in terms of poetry, only narrowly >> interpreted) cultural biography of the all-time champ. Berman's piece >> could have used a little tip of the hat to its source -- it smacked too >> much of book report or a hash job (as if no one would notice). Still, it >> was good to see it -- and the fact that such an outrageous poet remains >> the national poet (as Clinton would testify) is a wonderful, comforting >> thought. However, in terms of both Reynold and Berman, I would still like >> to see more about the poems themselves, particularly the still-radical >> and disturbing democratic/totalitarian eruption of the 1855 edition. >> >> Hilton Obenzinger >> >> On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: >> >> > today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper >> > on WHitman and Washington scandals. >> > >> > todd baron >> > (remap) >> > > >for more on the poems >see DH LAWRENCE > >definitely NOT >a newspaper article on the pres.! > >------------------------------ > >End of POETICS Digest - 17 Oct 1998 to 18 Oct 1998 (#1998-97) >************************************************************* > > Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:04:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: and a MAJOR faux pas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" excuse me ever so for not erasing all the long list in my response!! it is my pet peeve when people even attach the single note to which they are responding and here i am guilty beyond the pale a thousand eyelashes blushing, Elizabeth Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:23:29 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: I wish I was in Northern California in OTHERMINDS (concert info FWD) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a reminder to those of you in the Northern California area: Other Minds opens its 5th anniversary season this coming week with concerts on Wednesday and Thursday, Oct 21 and 22, of the Bang on a Can All-Stars in their first-ever Northern California appearance. This remarkable 6-member ensemble is profiled on our Web site at http://www.otherminds.org. I hope you will join us for an enjoyable two evenings and support this effort of Other Minds with your ticket purchases. Please plan to attend both evenings if possible. They will be quite different in the first half, with Brian Eno's 40-min. Music for Airports comprising the entire second half both nights, giving you a chance to memorize the piece or simply orbit inside it. # # # Other Minds, in association with the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, presen= ts The Bang on a Can All-Stars at the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts Theatre, San Francisco for tickets: (415) 978-ARTS, 11am-6pm Pacific Standard Time, or BASS Ticket Outlets $26.00/$22.00 students/seniors Program #1 Weds Oct 21: 8:00pm pre-concert talk with composers Pamela Z, Julia Wolfe and David Lang, hosted by Charles Amirkhanian: 7:00pm David Lang: Cheating, Lying, Stealing (1996) Michael Gordon: X/Y (1996) Pamela Z: The Schmetterling (1998) ---intermission--- Brian Eno: Music for Airports (1978) Music for Airports 1/1, arranged by Michael Gordon Music for Airports 2/1, arranged by David Lang Music for Airports, 1/2, arranged by Julia Wolfe Music for Airports, 2/2, arranged by Evan Ziporyn _____________________________________________________ Program #2 Thurs Oct 22, 1998: 8:00pm pre-concert talk with composers Dan Plonsey, Evan Ziporyn, Julia Wolfe and David Lang, hosted by Charles Amirkhanian: 7:00 pm Julia Wolfe: Lick (1994) Evan Ziporyn: Tsmindao Ghmerto (1996) Dan Plonsey: The Plonsey Episodes 1-9 (everybody does that), The Nostalgia of the Infinite (1998) ---intermission--- Brian Eno: Music for Airports (1978) Music for Airports 1/1, arranged by Michael Gordon Music for Airports 2/1, arranged by David Lang Music for Airports, 1/2, arranged by Julia Wolfe Music for Airports, 2/2, arranged by Evan Ziporyn _____________________________________________________ AND THEN . . . =46ollowing these concerts, don't miss the spectacular 10-hour Opus415 no.4 Marathon Saturday, November 7th, from 1pm to 11pm. I know that's 12 hours, but there will be a four half-hour breaks for oxygen= =2E OM presents this event, produced by the Common Sense Composers' Collective, in association with the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, and featuring 100+ performers and 27 composers, mostly of the Bay Area. Special guests of note: Harold Budd (Los Angeles), Henry Brant (Santa Barbara), and Ingram Marshall (Connecticut). Brant's work will be very unusual, combining eight of the ensembles of other composers into a phantasmagoric boulliabaise of spatial wackiness, with instrumentalists everywhere in the hall except in the laps of the audience. Tickets are $15/$10 students and seniors. Available from the same phone number above. All seats general admission and you may come and go as you please. This event will take place at the Forum Theatre, Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, San Francisco. Tickets now on sale. (415) 978-ARTS. =46or complete listing details, e-mail DanJB@aol.com (Dan Becker) or watch this list. PLEASE PASS ALONG THIS NOTICE TO ANYONE YOU KNOW WHO MIGHT ENJOY COMING TO OUR CONCERTS THIS WEEK. THANKS! CHARLES AMIRKHANIAN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OTHER MINDS, INC. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:49:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Paris Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christopher Reiner wrote: > If anyone is going to be in Paris in the next few weeks, you might want to > check out this reading: > > Keith Waldrop, Cydney Chadwick, Rosmarie Waldrop at the Village Voice > Bookstore (an English language bookstore). Tuesday, November 3rd, 7 p.m. 6 > rue Princesse, 75006, tel. 33 1 46.33.36.47. Metro: St. Surplice. Well, it will be a great week in Paris -- 'cause if you're there that first week in November, you can also catch a retrospective of Stan Brakhage's films at the Centre Pompidou (monday tuesday & wednesday night), plus, in the context of the Brakhage week, on thursday night at 7:30 in the Auditorium Colbert (Bibliothèque Nationale) 2 rue Vivienne a reading with: Robert Creeley, Robert Kelly, Kenneth Irby & Michael McClure, with their translators: Jean Daive, Serge Fauchereau, Pierre Joris. and on Friday ay 7:30pm a conference/roundtable: "Poétique et art de la vision " with : Paolo Bertetto, Jean Michel Bouhours, Robert Creeley, Robert Kelly, Michael McClure, P.-Adams Sitney. Presentateur/moderator: Pierre Joris For further details check out the following url: http://www.centrepompidou.fr/actualites/f2-conference.htm#littérature -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:19:07 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Bloody Twin Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I listed the PO box wrong: its 6291 Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: marquis de sade Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Well, here's the latest line-up of NIGHT OF DE SADE, a multimedia event happening at the Poetry Project this Wednesday, Oct. 21st, 8 pm. The evening will feature readings from the works of the Marquis de Sade, with music, and is produced by Hal Willner, producer of Allen Ginsberg's Holy Soul Jelly Roll. Diamanda Galas Stanley Tucci (director, "The Imposters") Carol Kane (yes, of "Taxi") Lili Taylor ("I Shot Andy Warhol") Chloe Webb ("Sid & Nancy") Edwin Torres Marge Suti and the Voice of Sting (he'll be on tape) Music/turntabling/dj-ing by Eric Mingus & Karen Mantler Billy Corgin may make a surprise appearance. Tickets are $15, $12 students, $10 for members, and free if you want to volunteer (which means helping set up, break down, do admissions, etc.) The Project is located in St. Mark's Church, corner of 2nd ave and 10th st. Call 674-0910 for more information. Hope to see you there! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Lehman & the last avant garde In-Reply-To: <3629C61D.76B8@his.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I suggested to someone who was reviewing the book that he should review it alongside of Charles North's new book of essays/reviews from Hanging Loose press, as complementary (and also as a book which will not get as much "play" because of the press, and the lack of a "jarring" media-goading title)--becsue Lehman's idea of the NYS is as reductive as the anti-Ashberians'--on the other hand-- idea of it is (it's great to see him include Connie Deanovich and Tom Breidenbach, for instance, in his list of younger "NY School" types---but to exclude Notley and Mayer?). Anyway, it seems this person is taking my advice, and I will let you know if and when his review is published.... chris s. On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, schuchat wrote: > I thought Lehman's book was pretty good for what it was meant to be, and > should help to introduce those writers to a broader audience. I know > some people don't believe that is a noble goal, and I agree that its > alright if someone doesn't want to read poetry. But I also like to share > or propagandize on behalf of art & literature & music (and food and > travel and other pleasures of peace) that I have enjoyed, so I think its > worth trying. It's a great book for a high school senior or college > freshman interested in poetry. > > Does anyone object to Lehman's reading of the the poems or poets? I > suppose someone might object to his downplaying of O'Hara's sexuality > (in an attempt to rebalance after the Gooch biography), but of course > O'Hara's poetry has delighted plenty of non-homosexuals. > > Lehman emphasizes the pleasure that the NY school poets found and took > in writing and reading and in art and in life, and, being old fashioned, > I think those are good things. > > Is it possible that someone on the list will disagree with me? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:44:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: historical ?s Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm hoping someone out there can help me with a minor point about NY history. When did the Ear Inn and/or St. Marks begin? I have a hunch that it was sometime after 1968. Anyone that can help me with firmer dates maybe should just back channel me. Thanks in advance. SS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:32:46 -0500 Reply-To: jlm8047@usl.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry McGuire Organization: USL Subject: Deep South Contest Winners Comments: To: Andi Matherne , Clara Connell , Cathy Bishop , Dedria Givens , contemporary poetry list , ann denion , Brenda Kaiser , Don Rood , charles bernstein , Amitava Kumar , Cheryl Torsney , dayne allan sherman , Charles Hunt , beverly vidrine , Allen David Barry , Bill Stackhouse , Darrell Curtis , dominique ryon , Dodie R Meeks , Anne Barrows , doris meriwether , Delane Tew , Alan Cockrell <73761.1143@compuserve.com>, Cat Nilan , David Kuhne , Chuck Thompson , David Duggar , DEBBIE VIATOR , "David J. LeMaster" , Cynthia Harper <5SatLib-SanAntonio@ca5.uscourts.gov>, Donna Walker-Nixon , David Holcomb , Chere' Coen , "Blanche A. Bell" , Brian Andrew Laird , Bev Marshall , Becky Hepinstall , "D.J. Shaw" , Donya Dickerson , Debbie J Hale , Boyd Girouard , Cherryl Floyd-Miller , gail tayko , John Ferstel , Gretchen King , elysabeth young , Fox Willard , John Fiero , James Henry , Jeff Goldstein , Jonathan Barron , janet bowdan , George Elliott Clarke , Joel Kuszai , Jeff Lodge , Jarita Davis <105366.2756@compuserve.com>, jean-marc , john august wood , geetha ramanathan , Hank Lazer , Eliza Miller , "J. Eric McNeil" , Glynnauth , Joe Cicero , joy graham , "Jeanine B. Cook" , Joan Hetzler , "Edelma D. Huntley" , Joseph Safdie , "Emily W. McAllister" , Joel Longstreth , Julie Hebert , Luis Urrea , Karen Ford , LWilson213 , Kevin Murphy , MANNY SELVIN , Kathy Ptacek , kevin johnson , marcia gaudet , margo davis , Marie Plasse , Mark Nowak , Mary Cappello , Mary Cotton , Megan Farrell , Michael and Charisse Floyd , Michael Mandel , miki nilan , molly cole , murray schwartz , "Myrsiades, Kostas" , Nancy Richard , Mary Hillier Sewell , "MBootsie@aol.com" , louisiana , Libby Nehrbass , Mary Tutwiler , Marcella Durand , L V Sadler , Larry Anderson , Norman German , "M. Davis" , Karleen Wooley , michael hansen , Peter Ganick , Richard Caccavale , Robin and Charles Weber , Robley Hood , Ronald Donn <954donn@alpha.nlu.edu>, Rosalind Foley , Sean McFadden , Shawn Moyer , sonya hicks , Staci Swedeen , Stanley Blair , Stephen Doiron , Steve Wilson , Susan Poznar , TABORWARRN , Tim Smith , Timothy Materer , Paige DeShong , Pamela Kirk Prentice , Patty Ryan , paul maltby , Robert Williams , rlehan , Steve Barancik , Randy Prunty , Rogan Stearns , "Sean H. O'Leary" , Sara McAulay , Robert Brophy , Sandra Gail Teichmann , Walt McDonald , Wendell Mayo , Wendell Ricketts , William Ryan , William Sylvester , William Trowbridge <0100470@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU>, Zach Smith , William Pitt Root and Pamela Uschuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are the results of this year's Deep South Writers Conference contest. (We've also posted them to our website, which can be reached through a clearly marked button at http://www.usl.edu/Departments/English I'm sorry to be bringing bad news, if you weren't among our winners, but we may take some consolation in the fact that our robust submissions assure that many fine writers did not garner an award this year. Our deep thanks to all participants. We hope you will give us another try in the future. Sincerely yours, Jerry McGuire Conference Director CONTEST WINNERS OF THE DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE, 1998 The Ethel Harvey Award for Non-Fiction First Prize ($200), Ms. Diana Pinckey, Charlotte, North Carolina "Porches" Novel First Prize ($300), Mr. Paul Perry, San Antonio, Texas A Room in Ueno Second Prize ($100), Ms. Carole Glickfield, Seattle, Washington Sidney & Melva & Me The James H. Wilson Full-Length Play Awards First Prize ($300), Mr. William Baer, Evansville, Indiana Lighthouse Second Prize ($100), Mr. Robert Williams, Danville, Virginia Deep South The John Z. Bennett Awards in Poetry First Prize ($300), Ms. Vivian Shipley, North Haven, Connecticut "Adjust the Size of Grief: 6x9 8x10" "Twinning" "Defacing Sylvia Plath's Grave" Second Prize ($200), Ms. Stella Brice, Houston, Texas "Forecast" "Mothers Punishment" "Mr. & Mrs. Under" Third Prize ($100), Ms. Margaret Rabb, Chapel Hill, North Carolina "H RORSCHACH" "Klecsographie" "Swiss Sects" Fourth Prize ($50), Ms. Catherine Neuhardt-Minor, Tappahannock, Virginia "Riveright" "Sidewalk Artist" "Edges" Honorable Mention, Ms. Delores Merrill, Dothan , Alabama "By Grace of Her Hand" "These Women Sit Around Their Men" "The Day Stephanie Turns 16" Honorable Mention, Ms. Gail Peck, Charlotte, North Carolina "Waking Up in Spain" "Can Change Nothing" "The Lost World" The Paul T. Nolan One-Act Play Awards First Prize ($200), Mr. David Barker, New York, New York "Does Thinking Take Place Out Loud?" Second Prize ($100), Ms. Cheryl Lilko, New York, New York "Augusta" Honorable Mention, Mr. Larry Linda, Castro Valley, California "Cryogenic" Short Fiction First Prize ($300), Ms. Diane Farrington, Salt Lake City, Utah "Life Raft" Second Prize ($200), Mr. Steve Weathers, Abilene, Texas "When It Comes" Third Prize ($100), Mr. Alan Cockrell, Huntsville, Alabama "Jupiter 616" Children's Fiction First Prize ($100), Ms. Nancy Burns, Lafayette, Louisiana "Zadock's Crossing" Young Adult Fiction First Prize ($200), Mr. Brent Hartinger, Seattle, Washington "Dreamgirl" CODOFIL Award in French Prose First Prize ($100), Mr. David J. Holcombe, Alexandria, Louisiana "L'Art de Faire un Pysanka" CODOFIL Award in French Poetry First Prize ($100), Dr. Beverly Matherne, Marquette, Michigan "Le blues brilliant" -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire Director of Creative Writing English Department Box 44691 University of Southwestern Louisiana Lafayette LA 70504-4691 318-482-5478 ________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:07:09 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: PNY / MEB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's the pny pamphlet series for the next year: 1/ Mark Wallace My Christmas Poem (available) 2/ Theodore Enslin Conversations (available) 3/ Laura Moriarty Spicer's City (available) 4/ Peter O'Leary Midas (available) 5/ David Baratier A Run of Letters (available nov.) 6/ Jane Augustine French Windows (available Nov.) 7/ Tod Thilleman 1988: An Artist's Diary (available dec.) 8/ Michael Stephens Going Thoreau (available dec.) 9/ Charles Borkhuis Dinner with Franz (available jan.) 10/ Peggy Garrison Ding The Bell (available dec.) 11/ Stephen Ellis White Gravity (available dec.) 12/ Keith Waldrop Two-Part Invention (available jan.) 13/ Cid Corman Nothing doing (available feb.) 14/ Joseph Donahue Terra Lucida X-X11 15/ 1998 contest winner Catherine Mellet Sat. aft. in my kitchen All of these are perfect bound 16 to 40 pages each. The Laura Moriarty, Mark Wallace, and Steve Ellis titles alone make it well worth paying for two subscriptions. Price is 6 for $20 or $4 each. All requests should be e-mailed (not backchanneled here) to: mailto:pny33@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:00:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Good News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Apropos of Pierre's "good news" last week about Nigeria's laureate returning home, I can't remember being so surprised and delighted at any international news as the headline this weekend that Pinochet has gotten arrested and detained by the British and Spanish authorities. 25 years later . . . "justice"? Probably not. But still, it tastes sweet. A few notes on other topics: the thread between Gary Sullivan and Stephen Cope on Spicer and the (perhaps continuing) Laura R. Jackson discussion have both been really interesting, and I hope the principals continue to contribute. (Perhaps we could have a poem of hers to look at? I don't have her poems here, but what about the short one that begins, I think, "the map of places passes / the reality of paper tears") On Friday Aldon said: "LRJ still believed that there was "truth," but that it couldn't be communicated through poetry-My own sense is that "truth" only exists as a relationship among statements, and is thus as readily available in poetry as anywhere else- I await her judgement-" And I think this absolutist tone, as it's been called in the last week or so, is very much the issue. The idea of someone renouncing poetry as "insufficient" should be enough to get the attention of any practitioner, which was my reason for checking out The Telling many years ago. But right after Aldon's post above came the latest news from the Blake website (for which I thank Matt Kirschenbaum PROFUSELY -- what lovely images!), which got me, between innings this weekend, to taking him off the shelf. And this is what he says to Ms. Jackson: "No man can think write or speak from his heart, but he must intend truth. Thus all sects of Philosophy are from the Poetic Genius adapted to the weaknesses of every individual" Sometimes you gotta talk across centuries to make any sense. This, for instance, is Blake's comment on the Bill, Monica and Ken story: "Mutual forgiveness of each Vice Such are the Gates of Paradise Against the Accusers chief desire Who walkd among the Stones of Fire" That little ditty from "For the Sexes" ends with an epilogue called "To the Accuser who is The God of This World" -- I think someone should send it to the Special Prosecutor . . . ya know, some of Blake looks just like lang po . . . Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:19:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Paris Reading In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Keith Waldrop, Cydney Chadwick, Rosmarie Waldrop at the Village Voice >Bookstore (an English language bookstore). Tuesday, November 3rd, 7 p.m. 6 >rue Princesse, 75006, tel. 33 1 46.33.36.47. Metro: St. Surplice. Is this possible? Two nights ago I dreamed that I was standing at a counter at some damned place, and the Waldrops were too. This was definitely not Paris. Does this dream forebode my going there instead of Indianapolis? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Good News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Safdie Joseph wrote: > Apropos of Pierre's "good news" last week about Nigeria's laureate > returning home, I can't remember being so surprised and delighted at any > international news as the headline this weekend that Pinochet has gotten > arrested and detained by the British and Spanish authorities. > > 25 years later . . . "justice"? Probably not. But still, it tastes > sweet. > yes, yes, yes -- it may only be shabby revenge, but I do hope Pinochet celebrates his 110th birthday in a spanish jail. It wld at least be symbolic justice, even if it cannot make up for the past sufferings of the people of Chile or for the still virulent heritage of Pinochet. Now how about some country doing the same to the CIA goons who set up the coup that brought him to power? -- Pierre -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:06:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: some bad news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News just in that the French poet Pierre Martory died last week. A very secretive poet, he was not well-known in France, but was championed in this country by his great friend John Ashbery who also translated him brilliantly -- two volumes at least, tho I don't know if they are still in print: _Every Question but One_ and _The Landscape is Behind the Door_. In 1997 Alyscamps/Sheep Meadow published a selected poems in French, called _Veilleur de Jours_. -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:51:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: RON SILLIMAN CALIFORNIA TOUR Comments: To: Undisclosed.Recipients@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RON SILLIMAN CALIFORNIA TOUR OCTOBER 1998 3 readings, All are open to the public Wednesday Oct 28 UC Santa Cruz Kresge College, Room 159, 5:00 PM, 831-429-8803 or tavogler@cats.ucsc.edu for details Thursday Oct 29 Reading with Karen Mac Cormack Terrace Room (4th floor conference room), Margaret Jacks Hall (Building 436), Quad at Palm Drive, Stanford, 4:00 PM Friday Oct 30 Reading with Karen Mac Cormack New College, 777 Valencia, San Francisco, 7:30 PM, $5 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:16:02 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Lawrence Subject: Robert Archambeau Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Could someone please let me know Robert Archambeau's email address? thanks Anthony ************************************** Anthony Lawrence Po Box 75 Sandy Bay Tasmania 7006 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:39:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Albany Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This may be of interest to listmembers in Albany & the Albany area: THE NEW YORK STATE WRITERS INSTITUTE / STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK ALBANY THURSDAY, OCTOBER 22 POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM 8:00PM Recital Hall Performing Arts Center Uptown Campus Poems for the Millennium: A Celebration. Join us for a celebration of the publication of _Poems for the Millennium_, a two part synthesizing and global anthology of poetry from the last fin-de-siecle to the present, edited by Pierre Joris and Jerome Rothenberg. The celebration will feature readings by the editors along with area poets & translators whose work is represented in the anthology. The Program: Pierre Joris & Jerome Rothenberg Introduction & opening collage Don Byrd Bei Dao read by Zongying Huang Robert Kelly Anne Marie Albiach performed by Nicole Peyrafitte Edward Sanders Badr Shakir al-Sayyab read by Hédi Jaouad Charles Stein Paul Celan read by Pierre Joris Cecilia Vicuña Navaho Horse Song performed by Jerome Rothenberg -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:33:00 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Content-Type: text/plain Rotary Engine There are illustrated levers, in the axis of an eccentric disc. long brings as long closer in line of centers in a particular space and adjacent before steam in that space acts on expansion in degrees and the varied grade Admission is given in periods by engine's separate and reduced portion. minus the fact are epicyclodial teeth minus of clearance as the pistons reciprocate a clear and distinct beat slowly the absence fits in as slow a speed as three or four or a single revolve The steady action exercises an economy of influence, direct and wide. Continuous Web Printing Press paper is placed the end the machine taken in roller's place and underside is kept apparatus passes given through damping arrange or required in nine and the twenty-ninth and five Construction: the type in impression is carried latter and upper in paper's first pass a diameter is their circumferenced slope corresponding points cut grooves on steep angles slightly inclined for the sufficient height of delivery Design: speed is aware of adjustment in paper's rapid allow when time framed in index ocillates and the space between continuous details the intelligible ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:45:22 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: Engineering and Poetry Content-Type: text/plain I'm hoping one of you knowledge folks out there in this world of wires and such can help me. I'm not asking for ropes or pulleys at this point, but just advice. A project: I write potry inspired by 19th century engineering and medical texts. The idea being to bring out the allure and beauty contained within these mechanisms. What I'm a-wonderin', as they say, is or are: Anyone interested in this type of project? below are a few examples of what I'm speaking: Rotary Engine There are illustrated levers, in the axis of an eccentric disc. long brings as long closer in line of centers in a particular space and adjacent before steam in that space acts on expansion in degrees and the varied grade Admission is given in periods by engine's separate and reduced portion. minus the fact are epicyclodial teeth minus of clearance as the pistons reciprocate a clear and distinct beat slowly the absence fits in as slow a speed as three or four or a single revolve The steady action exercises an economy of influence, direct and wide. Continuous Web Printing Press paper is placed the end the machine taken in roller's place and underside is kept apparatus passes given through damping arrange or required in nine and the twenty-ninth and five Construction: the type in impression is carried latter and upper in paper's first pass a diameter is their circumferenced slope corresponding points cut grooves on steep angles slightly inclined for the sufficient height of delivery Design: speed is aware of adjustment in paper's rapid allow when time framed in index ocillates and the space between continuous details the intelligible love to more or less all of you, things being what things being Jason Nelson English Department, Bowling Green State University Bowling Green, Ohio 43403 (419) 354-8362 jnelson9@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:38:35 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: Re: Robert Archambeau Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony, My email address is robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se but if that doesn't work for you (the Swedish server seems a bit unrelaible) try my American address, which I also check: arcambeau@lfc.edu Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:56:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: A petition to censure and move on In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Richard Ford > He even has nasty things to >say about hockey!!! >dwm Okay, then there's hope for him yet! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:34:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Good News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw some tv the other night - rare for me - of a lion jumping on a hyena... absolute stillness for a moment or two and then up gets the hyena and pushes the lion away (I think it was a hyena, I came into this programme: 4 legs and a head) And this is a British lion. Unfortunately. Stone throughout and pale with bird droppings I too am very excited that Pinochet has been captured. If it just gives him indigestion for a while, that's something. But now that the euphoria has passed, I am finding it harder and harder to imagine that he will ever stand trial in Spain. If only because those goons wouldn't like it.... Talking of which, which country breaking UN resolutions do you think the free countries of the world will threaten to bomb next? Lawrence L -----Original Message----- From: Pierre Joris Date: 20 October 1998 01:53 Subject: Re: Good News |Safdie Joseph wrote: | |> Apropos of Pierre's "good news" last week about Nigeria's laureate |> returning home, I can't remember being so surprised and delighted at any |> international news as the headline this weekend that Pinochet has gotten |> arrested and detained by the British and Spanish authorities. |> |> 25 years later . . . "justice"? Probably not. But still, it tastes |> sweet. |> | |yes, yes, yes -- it may only be shabby revenge, but I do hope Pinochet |celebrates his 110th birthday in a spanish jail. It wld at least be symbolic |justice, even if it cannot make up for the past sufferings of the people of |Chile or for the still virulent heritage of Pinochet. Now how about some |country doing the same to the CIA goons who set up the coup that brought him to |power? -- Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: whitman got fired too In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Paul Berman for years has functioned (as author, pundit, frequent Village Voice presence) as one of those especially revolting right-wing "leftists" ...whose main take on life and history is that virtually all revolutionaries are dups of some clique or their own bloody-minded passions..And so an inert mainstream liberalism is true responsible left politix. Has also usually been profoundly haughty and distasteful in his manner of delivering this pitiable insight. So, i was mildly pleased yesterday to find that he'd written something i found diverting and enjoyable for a few minutes. On specifically poetic matters, his piece was more than a little weird: Berman apparently believes that **all** eroticism and sexual elements in Leaves of Grass are mystic, and refer to union with God--that WW is never concerned with actual human eros. The bizzare quality of this belief was heightened, in the Times piece, by his evident sense that it was a perfectly uncontroversial claim.... Mark P. On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Hilton Manfred Obenzinger wrote: > Berman's piece was a pleasure, but a limited one. Information and > analysis were all derived from David Reynold's "Walt Whiteman's America," > a fine historicizing (though, in terms of poetry, only narrowly > interpreted) cultural biography of the all-time champ. Berman's piece > could have used a little tip of the hat to its source -- it smacked too > much of book report or a hash job (as if no one would notice). Still, it > was good to see it -- and the fact that such an outrageous poet remains > the national poet (as Clinton would testify) is a wonderful, comforting > thought. However, in terms of both Reynold and Berman, I would still like > to see more about the poems themselves, particularly the still-radical > and disturbing democratic/totalitarian eruption of the 1855 edition. > > Hilton Obenzinger > > On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > > > today's New York Times Book Review has a wonderful endpaper > > on WHitman and Washington scandals. > > > > todd baron > > (remap) > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: doin' the goosestep rag In-Reply-To: <362BDF0F.2973E7A3@csc.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, Pierre Joris wrote: > justice, even if it cannot make up for the past sufferings of the people of > Chile or for the still virulent heritage of Pinochet. Now how about some > country doing the same to the CIA goons who set up the coup that brought him to > power? -- Pierre > > That sounds like a great idea to me.....How about the USA doing it (..gonna haveta change a few things around first, of course..) By the way the NY Times article on Sunday announcing Pinochet's arrest cited the number of people murdered in the coup boodbath as **3,000** Now, i know that 1. the number had (even apart from US apologists) gotten revised downward somewhat, from what we believed it to be in the mid-70s; and 2. the NYT is a propaganda sheet, and to put it mildly its "truth value" is highly limited. But even so, from what i know the number of 3 thousand is just a tad insanely *low*.... A parable for poets on the power of words and symbolic gestures: i had a friend in college who had (as a high school student) spent a year living in Chile as part of an exchange program. The family she stayed with were fascists. (This didn't bother her that much as she wasn't yet aware enuff of things to really realize it..and politix didn't come up much.) But they did something quietly reminiscent of Orwell's 1984: whenever Pinochet gave a speech on TV they would (in the privacy of their own living room, no one there but this one family) **stand up** to express their respect and reverence. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:53:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Franco Subject: WORD OF MOUTH/ BOSTON READING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Pleased to announce that the Word of Mouth will present JEROME ROTHENBERG & PIERRE JORRIS reading from their work. SUNDAY OCT 25TH 5PM WATERSTONE'S BOOKS NEWBURY & EXITER STREETS BOSTON $$$ 4.00 best to all MF more info mfranco34@aol.com 617-628-0283 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:14:11 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Good News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Though as Pierre hints at Pinochet was only the blunt instrument of murder and repression. Even the clique of powerful Chilean military officials and businessmen thought Pinochet too soft for the job. Initially the gang of U.S. Corporations and the State Dept. thought he would not have the resolve to eliminate the people necessary while making the country safe for U.S. capital. He proved them wrong. As Eduardo Galeano said, "People were imprisoned so that markets could be free." I'd like to add Milton Friedman and the Chicago School to the wish list of fat cats behind bars as well as Kissinger, several dozen U.S. executives who are still alive from that period and another two dozen or so State Department officials not to mention the economic, political and military power base in Chile who, probably again with U.S. money, have launched the current campaign to free Pinochet. And while were at it some N. Y. Times and Washington Post reporters have some shit to answer for. Of course, anyone who has studied U.S. foreign policy from its inception could only conclude that it is a continuing criminal enterprise. But, of course, coming from a poet this is all wind. Today, I read that one of the individuals behind the current push here in Congress to give a coalition of Iraqi resistance 97 million dollars is none other than former CIA-Iran-contra figure, Duane 'Dewey' Clarridge. Looks like Dewey's done landed on his feet or more accurately enhanced his resume by showing a willingness to engage in blatantly criminal and unconstitutional behavior while at the same time distancing himself from the grossly indiscreet career liar and radio persoanlity, Oliver North. Couple that with Cuban exile and long time CIA contract agent, Louis Posada Carilles' public admission that he was behind a series of bombings in Havana in the mid-nineties and the State Department's lack of interest and you can gauge just how low on the pecking order a stooge like Pinochet is. Still there is that symbolic thrill at seeing the bastard locked up. You all may remember Posada Carilles. He was convicted in a Venezuelan court of planning the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner which killed all 73 people aboard including the Cuban fencing team. Posada Carilles later escaped from a Venezuelan prison with CIA-State Dept. connivance and showed up working for the CIA's station chief in El Salvador, Felix Rodriguez, helping to resupply the contras from Ilapango Air Force Base outside of San Salvador. Podada Carilles demonstrates how steadfastly the U.S. State Department protects its terrorist. After all, Pinochet murdered and imprisoned more U.S. citizens than those of Spain and England combined.---Carlo Parcelli > Safdie Joseph wrote: > > > Apropos of Pierre's "good news" last week about Nigeria's laureate > > returning home, I can't remember being so surprised and delighted at any > > international news as the headline this weekend that Pinochet has gotten > > arrested and detained by the British and Spanish authorities. > > > > 25 years later . . . "justice"? Probably not. But still, it tastes > > sweet. > > > > yes, yes, yes -- it may only be shabby revenge, but I do hope Pinochet > celebrates his 110th birthday in a spanish jail. It wld at least be symbolic > justice, even if it cannot make up for the past sufferings of the people of > Chile or for the still virulent heritage of Pinochet. Now how about some > country doing the same to the CIA goons who set up the coup that brought him to > power? -- Pierre > > -- > ======================== > Pierre Joris > joris@csc.albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 > tel: 518 426 0433 > fax: 518 426 3722 > ======================== > All that is not gas is grammar > — Wittgenstein > ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:19:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: PNY / MEB Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: <362B8DD6.E79776AE@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For what it's worth, I wanted to recommend the pny pamphlet series to list members. The pamphlets are sturdily & attractively bound, and the writing is exciting throughout. Peter O'Leary (co-editor of LVNG) has a pamphlet, forget the title off hand, which is one of the better items to come my way in some time. Go on & subscribe. Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA On Mon, 19 Oct 1998, David Baratier wrote: > Here's the pny pamphlet series for the next year: > > 1/ Mark Wallace My Christmas Poem (available) > > 2/ Theodore Enslin Conversations (available) > > 3/ Laura Moriarty Spicer's City (available) > > 4/ Peter O'Leary Midas (available) > > 5/ David Baratier A Run of Letters (available nov.) > > 6/ Jane Augustine French Windows (available Nov.) > > 7/ Tod Thilleman 1988: An Artist's Diary (available dec.) > > 8/ Michael Stephens Going Thoreau (available dec.) > > 9/ Charles Borkhuis Dinner with Franz (available jan.) > > 10/ Peggy Garrison Ding The Bell (available dec.) > > 11/ Stephen Ellis White Gravity (available dec.) > > 12/ Keith Waldrop Two-Part Invention (available jan.) > > 13/ Cid Corman Nothing doing (available feb.) > > 14/ Joseph Donahue Terra Lucida X-X11 > > 15/ 1998 contest winner Catherine Mellet Sat. aft. in my kitchen > > All of these are perfect bound 16 to 40 pages each. The Laura Moriarty, > Mark Wallace, and Steve Ellis titles alone make it well worth paying for > two subscriptions. > Price is 6 for $20 or $4 each. > All requests should be e-mailed (not backchanneled here) to: > > mailto:pny33@hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:46:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (Sorry I've taken a while to get back to this. I'm in the midst of cranking out about 30 music reviews (jazz & contemporary classical stuff) by next Tuesday, so I can town again for a couple of weeks on Wednesday) Jonathan Mayhew wrote: >You are making it worse, not better, for Adorno, Herb. He KNEW that >harmonic music was evil? That atonal music was the salvation of mankind? >Give me a break. If what you say is true, then he was simply a musical >fascist. I'd like to give him more credit than that... > > >Jonathan Uh, I never said I was trying to defend him. You've made the mistake of assuming that 'cause I've read Adorno & am willing to take some time to explain his positions when they've been extremely oversimplified that I'm a supporter of these positions. & "Simply" is probably EXACTLY the wrong word to describe any aspect of Adorno's thought. Adorno's complaints about jazz are neither simple-, or single-minded; they're consistent with his relatively complicated views on contemporary music in general. You may think these are dumb ideas, but they just come from a very different world from the one you live in. Adorno's model of culture is Marxist & progressive: historic, political, & cultural processes evolve together, echoing and re-inforcing each other. For him, just as Mahler grew out of Beethoven, the next step was clearly serial music. Adorno's response to non-serial modernist music such as Stravinsky's was that it was regressive, an attempt to delay the next historical phase of musical culture. For supposedly cultured people to ignore, denounce, etc. the next historically inevitable step in music was, to his way of thinking, counter-productive. His critique is also related to the overall critique of what the Frankfurters called the culture industry: radio, audio recordings, film, photography. For Adorno what the mechanisms of the culture industry did was take control of culture away from the artists and audience & put it into the hands of middle men, who didn't care or know much about the art being presented. Where there had been once people actively making their own music, whether it was "classical", "folk" or some other "original" music, there was now a pop music industry with entertainers who's work was presented in ways that were not possible before - Bing Crosby was no longer just a performer in Spokane, Bob Wills was no longer just a performer from Texas, Mae West was no longer a performer from wherever she was from, pop performers could now have a national & international presence through broadcasts & films that belied any rootedness in time or place. The links between the historic processes of civilization as a whole and the historic processes of music & the other arts had been disrupted for commercial purposes. You could have music in your home anytime you wished but it was music selected, or created, to be easily palatable, without participating in a music culture. Because the new media were able to represent works outside of real time and space, they transformed popular culture from a local phenomena, what people did in their neighborhoods, to a mass event unparalleled in earlier times, partly because it was larger than other events, and partly because it had been separated from whatever roots it had in a real locale, a real community practice. For Adorno, jazz was one more art form removed from it's cultural milieu, turned into a commercial product for & by the media. For him, the content or lack thereof was irrelevant to this fact. Hence his notion that bebop was "good bad music" - it was "better" than what had come before, but still flawed by the manipulations of the culture industry to move more units of product, as well as being flawed by not being involved in the specific historic processes he saw as the next step in musical history. Adorno somewhere writes that everytime he saw a movie he felt it made him stupider & less moral, & this is typical of his response to what were then the new media: it tended to cheapen the content either by ignoring its potential import (by programming virtually anything to fill time); by ignoring its cultural sources (all music is "ours" cause we can own the records) or by watering it down (as in the case of, say, most film adaptations of literature). As before, I refer folks to the recent books by Robert Witkin & M Paddison on Adorno & music for a more detailed look at these issues. These books both make a better case for Adorno than I have, but don't assume as much knowledge of classical music as Adorno's own writings do. I'm not sure how much time I'll have to respond to response to this, but I thought I shouldn't leave this hanging (though given how fast the thread died down, maybe I should have). Bests, Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:09:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Good News, Bad News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks to Pierre and Carlo for responding to the Pinochet news yesterday. It does, of course (before anyone asks) have "something to do with poetics." As Carlo says, echoing Pierre, "Still there is that symbolic thrill at seeing the bastard locked up" -- and we're all (I think) involved in a symbolic enterprise, no matter how we interpret that word. Carlo also said: " . . . anyone who has studied U.S. foreign policy from its inception could only conclude that it is a continuing criminal enterprise. But, of course, coming from a poet this is all wind. . . ." Perhaps, perhaps not. I've really liked two or three recent apocalyptic posts from Alan Sondheim, revealing an acute grasp of social complexity and tragedy. But this brings to mind a post from Henry five days ago, which many may have ignored because, you know, it was Henry . . . "But my point was to suggest some issues that rarely get much focus on this "innovative" list. Such as the role of the poet as individual "social actor" or historical witness. In a literary market economy where the money lies in mysteries, thrillers, biographies, self-help books, and the rest of the mountain of conventional self-adjuster-release mechanisms, it's become an assumption that innovative or alternative poetries should just set up their own alternative networks and produce produce produce and publish publish publish and promot promote promote in ways that simply mirror the commercial sector. (This sounds a bit like Herb's recent post about Adorno). Whatever happened to the poet's role as political intepreter or exemplar? As outcast or participant in real events and political issues? I am not thinking so much of the "poet in prison" paradigm of various tyrannies, but of Whitman's example of the poet who insinuates him or herself into larger historical dramas (nursing the Civil War wounded), or even more pertinent, of the poet who makes the writing process consciously related to or dependent on an existential situation - the poet as reporter (can't think of an example offhand). Another aspect of this is the question of value & production - how do you compare the enormous oeuvres of contemporary poets with someone like Vallejo, for example - whose poetry is of great interest precisely because of the collision between creative innovation and existential (poor, emigre, exile, embattled) reality that is expressed throughout. What is precious about poetry if it simply mimics the mass commercial popularity & success contest - if it declines to "reach into the wound & heal it" as Mandelstam puts it (Slate Ode)?" There have been many threads on the List about such potentials for poetry. It's an ambition, I think, that is sometimes forgotten (and sometimes not even articulated). Finally, here's the poem by Laura Riding I mentioned yesterday. The Map of Places The map of places passes. The reality of paper tears. Land and water where they are Are only where they were When words read _here_ and _here_ Before ships happened there. Now on naked names feet stand, No geographies in the hand, And paper reads anciently, And ships at sea Turn round and round. All is known, all is found. Death meets itself everywhere. Holes in maps look through to nowhere. ______________________________________________________________ Although the level of abstraction, as Marjorie mentioned, is certainly high, I find this poem rather amazing -- and spooky! Would love to know what others thought. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:33:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: there's a question at the end of this Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Poetry and the appeals process -- This morning's news carries a story of a federal appeals court's decision regarding the extent of liability public schools may bear for failure to respond to student complaints of racial "slurs." The decision also rejected a claim that a school could be sued for requiring the reading of _Huckleberry Finn_ and "A Rose for Emily." I'm not so much interested in that part of the case as I am in something that happens in the court's published opinion. The judges ruled, as they should, that a court ban of such books would violate the 1st Amendment, but they went on to argue that a contrary ruling might make "an extremely wide--if not unlimited--range of literary products" [yes, they did use the word "products"] vulnerable to similar actions. They wrote that "White plaintiffs could seek to remove books by Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou and other prominent black authors on the ground that they portray Caucasians in a derogatory fashion;" What's of interest to me in this sentence is a curious but common bit of slippage. As we move from the works at issue in the case to speculation about possible offenses to white people, suddenly we are discussing "derogatory" portrayals rather than expressions of racism. Note also that there appears to be a presupposition of equivalence between "negative" and "derogatory." These judges appear to be incapable of making a distinction of any sort between characterizations in which somebody is derogated _because_ of their race, and negative prtrayals of individuals quite apart from their race. (For example, would we call descriptions of unsavory English characters in Dickens derogratory portrayals of white people?) This has the effect of emptying out legitimate concerns about racism in literature (though I oppose the solutions sought by the bringers of the case) and reducing them to the old "negative imagery" debate -- a debate that has considerably more merit than readers might gather from this opinion -- again, it's not the outcome of the case that interests me here, but the presuppositions and rhetorical movements within the opinion. The judges go on to say that "Jews might try to impose civil liability for the teaching of Shakespeare and of more modern English poets where writings exhibit a similar anti-Semitic strain. Female students could attempt to make a case for damages for the assignment of the works of Tenessee Williams, Hemingway or Freud, and male students for the writings of Andrea Dworkin or Margaret Atwood." There's entirely too much to take on in that, but please note the general ref. to "more modern English poets" as opposed to the specificity of the other examples! Anyway, as a defender of the teaching of ol Huck, I have always wondered what sort of reaction might be expected by a teacher who brought into class literary works with clearly racist remarks about white people and approached the work with the attitudes commonly used in class-room discussions of Twain -- and here's my question -- has anyone out there ever taught, or been taught, literary works that are clearly racist against white people. (and again, I DO NOT mean simply a negative description of somebody who is white, but an expression of ideological racism)??? If so, how did the discussion go? I have tried on a few occasions to teach some racist poetry from the late 60s, and I can tell you that the fire storm that resulted in the class was not something I'd want to repeat soon -- The same students who earlier told me that cummings was being subtly antiracist found no similar irony in the poems we were discussing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:37:19 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Journal of Artists' Books 10 (d.a. levy issue) In-Reply-To: <9DCC195C3D47D211A27C00A0C9E11F9C078BD4@lwtc.ctc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The new Journal of Artists' Books (JAB 10), edited by book artist Brad Freeman, is out. This issue features three essays on d.a. levy: "The Buddhist Thirdclass Junkmail Oracle--The Life, Mysterious Death and Collected Poetry & Art of d.a. levy" by Mike Golden; "Nostalgia for Relevance," by yours truly; and "The Tibetan Stroboscope of d.a. levy" by listperson/Granary Books publisher, Steve Clay. Also in this issue: Emily McVarish reviews Guillermo Gomez-Pena, Enrique Chagoya and Felicia Rice's (amazing!) _Codex Espangliensis; Lois Martin's "Broaching Texts and Reading Material: Artist Books by Robbin Ami Silverberg"; and an observance of the passing of photographer/printer/book maker Todd Walker. The single issue is $10. Subscriptions are $20 (US/MEXICO/CANADA) $22 (ELSEWHERE). Send to JAB, 324 Yale Avenue, New Haven, CT 06515 I have five contributor's copies; one's mine, one's earmarked for Wendy Kramer, the other three will go gratis to the first three people who backchannel requesting a copy. Please-2-have a grrrreat day! Gary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shana Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981020103338.006a9a94@popmail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Aldon Nielsen wrote: > > and here's my question -- has anyone out there ever taught, or been taught, > literary works that are clearly racist against white people. (and again, I > DO NOT mean simply a negative description of somebody who is white, but an > expression of ideological racism)??? If so, how did the discussion go? I > have tried on a few occasions to teach some racist poetry from the late > 60s, and I can tell you that the fire storm that resulted in the class was > not something I'd want to repeat soon -- The same students who earlier told > me that cummings was being subtly antiracist found no similar irony in the > poems we were discussing. > not racist against whites, but... Several years ago, I wrote a thesis on anti-Semitism in the media, and my professor had asked me to discuss it with the class. Of course, I talked about the airing of the "Hey Jew boy" poem over the radio in the late 60's--there were a lot of hushes and "ohmigods" in the lecture hall. After the class ended, the tension was most uncomfortable. I talked with a few of the black students later, and they were irked--it was as if by reading a racist poem (by a 9-year-old boy!), I had betrayed the black students. "Now all the Jews are going to think we all think this way," was a common complaint. I tried to convince them otherwise; this was an example of anti-semitism in the media, guys, we talked about Henry Ford, too--unfortunately, the black students were right. No great strides were made in the field of black/Jewish relations that semester. :) I've also noticed that even reading Audre Lorde and Ntozake Shange in classes, though they're not blatantly racist, causes white students to feel discrimination. Or so they say. I don't think discriminated is the right word, I think what they really mean is that they're isolated. shana "In the blank space below specify how long you have been awake and why you were taken by surprise."--Dan Pagis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:56:27 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: MY SUPPLY OF LEVY JAB NOW GONE! In-Reply-To: <001501bdfc50$49a427c0$bce23b80@montgomery.hist.columbia.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, order from Brad as per below. Thanks, everyone! --G > The single issue is $10. Subscriptions are $20 (US/MEXICO/CANADA) $22 > (ELSEWHERE). Send to JAB, 324 Yale Avenue, New Haven, CT 06515 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:37:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Shana brings up an additional issue, which we've spoken of briefly on the list from time to time -- I've taught at historically black colleges, historically white colleges,,, have taught much of the same materials in each institution -- one of the greatest shocks of my early career (OK, so I'm hopelsessly naive) was the discovery that many white students seem to take any discussion of the history of slavery as an attack upon them -- that this remains an active sentiment in our society was shown by the short-lived recent debate about a possible national "apology" for slavery -- the letters to the editors columns of the American press immediately filled with some of the most vehement (and ignorant) responses I've ever seen -- one letter writer in Colordao went so far as to make the old "positive good" argument (that is, that black Americans are so much better off for having been brought here that they should be thankful for their deliverance from Africa) -- but to return to your example -- what does it say about us that one poem by a school child has been better known lo these past three decades than any anti-antisemitic poem by anybody -- (and the other question I keep coming back to, in whose interests is it for African-Americans and Jewish-Americans to think they are each other's worst enemies?) -- ah Bartleby . . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: historical ?s Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" the Poetry Project at St. Marks was definitely going in 64 with Paul Blackburn, Diane Wakoski and Joel Oppenheimer taking turns supervising the open readings on Monday nights, featured readings were Thursdays. Celebrities read in the main church, but mostly we read in the back. 1968 was maybe the year they remodeled the main church to make it dance friendly if i'm remembering well. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:26:43 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Younger Poets Issue 10 Content-Type: text/plain Hi Simon, did you receive these books yet? Please let me know so I can follow up with Michael if you have not. Thanks, Dale > >Dale -- >I'd like to order the latest issue of Younger Poets and also the new Hoa >Hyugen book. > >Current mailing address is: > >Simon Schuchat >Apartment 803 >1001 North Vermont Street >Arlington, VA 22201 > >The check will soon be in the mail -- $12, right? > >Cheerios, > >Simon > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:40:06 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Cuba MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends: If anyone on this list is in Cuba (are the Fidelistas on the internet?), please backchannel. Also, anyone Cuban, but now residing in U.S., please backchannel. Thank you. Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:43:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas A. Vogler" Subject: Silliman Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" POETRY READING and CELEBRATION You are invited to celebrate the publication of QUARRY WEST 34 (RON SILLIMAN AND THE ALPHABET-- A Symposium on the Work of Ron Silliman) WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 1998 5-7 PM KRESGE 159, UCSC Abundant refreshments will be served. For further information, directions, etc. email tavogler@cats.ucsc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another issue at stake in the banning o' Twain might be that it is not only an attempt to suppress proliferation of racist representations, but that it is an attempt to cleanse high school classes of all historical evidence of racism among our "respected" authors. Or alternatively. . . since people probably don't complain about such things in history classes, it suggests something about people's peculiar understanding of what "literature" is, that "high culture" protects us some how from bad ideas. Given these concerns, has anyone ever taught a class on "race" and "gender" that focused on historically popular texts that were explicitly racist but never made the cut for late 19th century cannons because of their unpopular representations? While everyone's dissing Twain, maybe someone should put together a proposal to ban books that are written about cozy New England communities that had slaves, but within which slaves never appear. Just a thought. Aldon Nielsen wrote: > Poetry and the appeals process -- > > This morning's news carries a story of a federal appeals court's > decision > regarding the extent of liability public schools may bear for failure > to > respond to student complaints of racial "slurs." The decision also > rejected a claim that a school could be sued for requiring the reading > of > _Huckleberry Finn_ and "A Rose for Emily." . . . > and here's my question -- has anyone out there ever taught, or been > taught, > literary works that are clearly racist against white people. (and > again, I > DO NOT mean simply a negative description of somebody who is white, > but an > expression of ideological racism)??? If so, how did the discussion > go? I > have tried on a few occasions to teach some racist poetry from the > late > 60s, and I can tell you that the fire storm that resulted in the class > was > not something I'd want to repeat soon -- The same students who earlier > told > me that cummings was being subtly antiracist found no similar irony in > the > poems we were discussing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:31:16 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Younger Poets Issue 10 Content-Type: text/plain Damn, what a hick, sending private notes to you all... Well, not wanting to waste cyberspace, I'll bore you with some other arcane 'multiple-thoughts-in-one-post.' Herb's post this morning on Adorno and Jazz was very impressive, thoughtful and thorough. I appreciate how he is able to articulate his views of Adorno's position on Jazz without reducing that contradictory and difficult writer's prose to some kind of good/bad dichotomy. And what got into A.L. Nielson today? disturbing the List with that racial gibberygabook? I can't think of any books I've read that would be considered prejudiced against whites. The chances of those books being published, anyway, are slim, since the publishing powers that be are, predominantly white. The only exception I can think of might be Chester Himes, who did address racial issues directly in many of his books, including Plan B, (published, ironically enough, by the University of Mississippi), which is about a race war in America. (He's another African-American writer who lived in France). But I'd be hard pressed to call his works racist in the way we've come to think of that term. I think he was justifiably pissed, but not ideologically prejudiced against whites. I think his novels would be difficult to teach, however, because he raises a lot of unpleasant business, issues especially difficult for whites to address. I'm white, and have taken part in many conversations about race, and I know I get defensive, at times, about issues around it. I think it feels threatening to discuss race because, as Adorno would say, we (whites here) are implicated in that power structure that benefited from slavery and exploited emancipation. Racial divisions are deep in the blood, however cliched you might think it sounds. The intellectual responses to race are good for bridging the genetic maelstrom, but my feelings, my responses, if addressed forthright, in the past, have been defensive, ending in an anger that feels engendered by misunderstandings. I think the more engaged one becomes in a conversation re: race, the deeper into the body the words go. And once you're in the body, look out, because there are many years living there, I've discovered. Well, I didn't mean to say all that... But what Aldon brought up is important, and I thought it should be addressed with, if not some solid examples and rigorous comments, at least an impression of my emotional responses to racial discussions. It's touchy business though, I must confess, because what you know dissolves quickly in the wake of what you feel. This has been my experience anyway. >Hi Simon, did you receive these books yet? Please let me know so I can >follow up with Michael if you have not. Thanks, Dale > > >> >>Dale -- >>I'd like to order the latest issue of Younger Poets and also the new >Hoa >>Hyugen book. >> >>Current mailing address is: >> >>Simon Schuchat >>Apartment 803 >>1001 North Vermont Street >>Arlington, VA 22201 >> >>The check will soon be in the mail -- $12, right? >> >>Cheerios, >> >>Simon >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:46:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: racism & antisemitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are we at the point that teaching a work is equivalent to endorsing everything in it, or necessitates an insurance policy against anything potentially offensive therein? The weirdness of this logic also applies to the idea that by excluding a given work in course we are stigmatizing it in some awful way. No matter how encylopedic a course is it will always exclude more than it can take in. Sartre said it was impossible to write a good work of literature that was racist or colonialist (I am paraphrasing forgive the inaccuracy of my memory). The logic is that literature is intrinsically on the side of human liberation. It's an argument that I don't hear much anymore--the contemporary equivalent is that the *study or *teaching of literature has to further human liberation. The same argument but once removed. Twain did not set out to write racist tracts; but racist tracts, insofar as they are taught, will probably taught as such, with the issue of race at the forefront. There is the famous "literary nullification" doctrine: if the work is great literature, then any anti-semitism, racism, etc... is automatically transcended. Pound's anti-semitism only *looks like anti-semitism, it is really something else. This is self-evidently ridiculous and leads to much tortured reasoning. Yet the idea that any one of us might be sued for teaching The Cantos makes me shudder... For that matter all works of literature written in the past will come up short when measured against contemporary sensibilities. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: MAYHEW To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 2:46 PM Subject: racism & antisemitism Great quote, Jonathan, but this is the price everyone pays for P.C. --Jesse >Yet the idea that any one of us might be sued for teaching The Cantos makes me shudder... > >Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:11:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Are you suggesting that Huck Finn is a racist tract or could even be taught as such? At 04:46 PM 10/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >Are we at the point that teaching a work is equivalent to endorsing >everything in it, or necessitates an insurance policy against anything >potentially offensive therein? The weirdness of this logic also applies to >the idea that by excluding a given work in course we are stigmatizing it >in some awful way. No matter how encylopedic a course is it will always >exclude more than it can take in. > >Sartre said it was impossible to write a good work of literature that was >racist or colonialist (I am paraphrasing forgive the inaccuracy of my >memory). The logic is that literature is intrinsically on the side of >human liberation. It's an argument that I don't hear much anymore--the >contemporary equivalent is that the *study or *teaching of literature has >to further human liberation. The same argument but once removed. > >Twain did not set out to write racist tracts; but racist tracts, insofar >as they are taught, will probably taught as such, with the issue of race >at the forefront. > >There is the famous "literary nullification" doctrine: if the work is >great literature, then any anti-semitism, racism, etc... is automatically >transcended. Pound's anti-semitism only *looks like anti-semitism, it is >really something else. This is self-evidently ridiculous and leads to >much tortured reasoning. Yet the idea that any one of us might be sued >for teaching The Cantos makes me shudder... For that matter all works of >literature written in the past will come up short when measured against >contemporary sensibilities. > >Jonathan > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020161118.00a3e4b0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > Are you suggesting that Huck Finn is a racist tract or could even be taught > as such? > No, that's not what I meant, and I apologize from my clumsy expression of my thought. I meant to distinguish it from such. Is it racist? Is Uncle Tom's Cabin racist? Depends what you want that word to mean, I suppose. Could it (HF) be taught as such? I hope not, but there is the tendency now to take whatever in a work is closest to contemporary political concerns and make this theme the interpretive key to the work as a whole. Thus Huck Finn would be "about" race, as the vulgar expression has it (I hate that "about"). This is the other extreme from the "nullification" hypothesis that claims that what appears to be racist cannot be so. For Aldon's original question: there was an article in the M/MLA Journal, a few issues ago, about whiteness. The author, a white woman if I am not remembering wrong, describes some student responses to contemporary African American poems. For me the essay was too much the "look how defensive my white students are" genre, a close cousin of the "my male colleague told me to study Milton" genre of critical essay. The game seems to be one of provoking defensive reactions from barely literate students, then criticizing their defensiveness in print. All the same, it might be worth looking at. JM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:31:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020161118.00a3e4b0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Aldon has raised all sorts of points, but I'd like to address the Huck Finn angle. Yes, the novel has been regarded as racist, particularly because of the use of "nigger," but also because of the employment of minstrel-coloquys (such as the dialogue on French). For these reasons some have tried to ban the book or prevent it from being used as required high school reading. I teach the book on the university level, and I get reports from Stanford students of how the book is taught in high school -- and from these reports I wouldn't be too unhappy if the book was taken off the required reading list, mainly because so many (though, of course, not all) high school teachers seem to be incompetent or teaching the book without any eye towards understanding its dark satire of racial relations or why anyone would be uncomfortable. In addition to reports of racial blindness, I have received more disturbing accounts of out and out racist abuse. It's not the novel, it's not Twain, it's everything about this country that Twain was so in touch with that presents the problem -- particularly for high school students (and teachers) who often are not equiped to perceive the layers of irony (remember Pudd'nhead Wilson: the town could not get his joke, could not perceive irony, but in the end Puddn'head, the smartest man in town, couldn't perceive the irony of two white people, one deemed a slave and the other deemed free). To decide whether or not something should be on the curiculum for high school students is not censorship -- but if it is on the curiculum it must be taught with the minimum of finese. The horror stories are awful -- and this goes beyond typical mediocrity. Gerald Graff has produced an edition of Huck Finn that contains critical essays that present all the controversies about the book -- all within Graff's theory of bringing the controversies to the classroom. This helps. By ,the time I've finished teaching the book students have an altogether different take on the racial dynamics: there may 19th century stereotypes about black people embedded in Twain's representation of Jim, but what is truly shocking is how disgusting the white people are. From Pap, to the King and the Duke, to the Tom Sawyer -- everyone except Huck (who is simply naive, on the fringe, and not especially enlightened) is blinded, warped, perverted by racism. So, if you want to teach an "anti-white" text, try Huck Finn: if the racial blinders are truly off, the classroom will be thrown into an uproar. This is not to minimize what Aldon is trying to say: the tendency is to accept or wink at or downplay the racist or anti-semitic in "classics," but try to have something that smacks of "anti-white" or in other ways challenging racial hierarchies and all hell breaks out. For example, I've used "Mambo Mouth" by John Leguizamo in my class -- try the final performance on Latino-Japanese cross-over for a little nervous energy. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:04:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've also noticed that even reading Audre Lorde and Ntozake Shange in > classes, though they're not blatantly racist, causes white students to > feel discrimination. Or so they say. I don't think discriminated is the > right word, I think what they really mean is that they're isolated. I think this is a great insight, that white people sometimes feel angry & "discriminated against" when they feel isolated racially. I take this as proof positive of their/our privileged position and it reminds me of a white man in one of my classes at grad school (who, incidentally, didn't think using the word "nigger" in his poetry was any big deal). One day he came in with a tale of being what he called the "only grain of salt" on the subway into class. He was, I think, feeling discriminated against because he felt *awkward*. I'm tempted to say that I wish classes *would* make white students feel discriminated against, just so they could get a taste, albeit a very mild one, all told. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:08:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Tan Lin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" does anyone have a current email for Tan Lin? b/c, s.v.p. Eliz. Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:11:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >By ,the time I've finished >teaching the book students have an altogether different take on the racial >dynamics: there may 19th century stereotypes about black people embedded >in Twain's representation of Jim, but what is truly shocking is how >disgusting the white people are. From Pap, to the King and the Duke, to >the Tom Sawyer -- everyone except Huck (who is simply naive, on the >fringe, and not especially enlightened) is blinded, warped, perverted by >racism. I haven't read Huck Finn in 23 years, and I didn't read it until college. But when I did read it, I thought its critique of racism was obvious. So I guess I'm amazed that high school teachers can't deal with it this way. I have children in elementary school, and I actually have had a lot of respect for their teachers so far (through 4th grade, in public schools first in Minneapolis, now in Tucson). I can only hope that when they are in high school they have teachers who are willing and capable of teaching such works as Huck Finn. The current conversation is truly frightening to me. charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:04:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020201147.007d7d20@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This may be beyond the bounds for a poetics list. A biog piece of the problem is the tenuous connection between students and teachers in HS because the kids move every 45 minutes. This means that teachers can't expand and contract subject-areas, or overlap them (say history and english while reading Huck) depending upon the needs of the moment. At 08:11 PM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >>By ,the time I've finished >>teaching the book students have an altogether different take on the racial >>dynamics: there may 19th century stereotypes about black people embedded >>in Twain's representation of Jim, but what is truly shocking is how >>disgusting the white people are. From Pap, to the King and the Duke, to >>the Tom Sawyer -- everyone except Huck (who is simply naive, on the >>fringe, and not especially enlightened) is blinded, warped, perverted by >>racism. > >I haven't read Huck Finn in 23 years, and I didn't read it until college. >But when I did read it, I thought its critique of racism was obvious. So I >guess I'm amazed that high school teachers can't deal with it this way. I >have children in elementary school, and I actually have had a lot of >respect for their teachers so far (through 4th grade, in public schools >first in Minneapolis, now in Tucson). I can only hope that when they are in >high school they have teachers who are willing and capable of teaching such >works as Huck Finn. The current conversation is truly frightening to me. > > >charles > > >chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing >chax@theriver.com >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax >520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:44:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just to mention here Jacques Attali's NOISE: THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF MUSIC as a book which offers a kind of updated (and perhaps more enlightened) historical take on music (although, if I remember, he makes use of Adorno liberally). Worth checking out for those interested not so much in Adorno, but in the kinds of questions Adorno raises vis-a-vis music. Any thoughts? Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:31:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020210416.00a468a0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ok, few items: about twain, i'll just say it: it would take a staunch apologist indeed to wish away the racism of _roughing it_ (1872, an early work)---this directed, as many of you are no doubt aware, against native americans... i still like lots of twain, sure---and the way i see it, through the brothers allman, 'if he's no saint, he sure as hell ain't no sinner'... though of course, and as twain himself would no doubt concur, we may all be sinners in a more general sense... some of what may appear "obvious" in huck finn, btw, may not be that obvious... witness the ongoing controversy surrounding, is it?---_was huck finn black?_... someone help me out here, please----an analysis of black dialect when applied to twain's dialogue, with somewhat surprising results... but as to teaching per se, permit me to digress... i think here of christopher hitchens's provocative piece in this month's _harper's_, "goodbye to all that: why americans are not taught history"... in which hitchen's nicely distinguishes twixt two equally useless ways of approaching history---i.e., the e-z "pc/multicultural" path (more and more the domain of corporate sensitivity training and the like, i would argue), over and against that of the true believer (patriotic, conservative, etc., and corresponding master narratives)---only to land on what sounds to me a whole lot like a or perhaps the historical dialectic, with socratic overtones... along the way, btw, he manages, like so many others, to seem an apologist for---guess who? no other than twain (sans ref. to _roughing it_, naturally)... and why is that?... there was some controversy a while ago, btw, again in the pages of _harper's_, as to whether we should teach twain AT ALL (and not b/c twain uses the 'n' word)---forgot who argued thus (someone famously academic), but the argument as i recall turned on notions of canon formation, relative value, etc.... ok, i like hitchens, he makes me laugh out loud... but what seems absent from his various claims regarding the failure of instruction in history---with which i generally agree---a failure that points to no golden past (for him OR for me), is any real insight into teaching other than a sort of "cultural literacy," content-based approach to same, buttressed, again, by a working grasp of competing historical claims (and here hitchens cites, approvingly, e. d. hirsch)... there is, that is, little sense in reading hitchens that the broadly sociopolitical (ok?) context in which historical instruction (all formal instruction) takes place, the classroom (itself housed within the college/university), should itself be understood in generally historicized and overdetermined terms... of the roles of "instructor" and "student," e.g., in said historicized, achingly institutional confines... of the distribution of power, through knowledge, as real-ized in such confines... etc etc etc, and regarding which i am so obviously at some pains to detail... i won't bore you folks, as i have in the past, with my "radical teacher" claims, if that's what they are (---and when i use the term "radical teacher," i mean to refer to the movement, the journal, etc., all ostensibly with the purpose to help *liberate*, to provide meaningful social transformation through learning---which so many instructors find such a distastefully direct form of advocacy, i know, but which yet seems to me a worthy aim)... and i'm not suggesting for a second that we don't need or couldn't use more content, or dialectic, or whatever---or that we must be purists in our teaching goals, or learning (and learned) desires... but what i *am* saying is that one common denominator of the various failed enterprises that mark the instruction of history, as well as so many other fields, would seem to be their tendency to ignore the full implications of that historical insight and contextualizing to which i refer above (of the classroom, or expectations, etc.)... and that this perhaps provides some idea of where to begin, again, a dialogue---which of course would include the question of bringing variously racist works into the classroom, along with variously racist bodies and variously racist thoughts... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:11:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: SD In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020161118.00a3e4b0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I will be in San Diego this weekend and would appreciate knowing about any readings. Please respond back-channel by tomorrow noon --- I have to go off the list again (too much other stuff going on in this so-called life), hope to be back in a week or two, and leave for the airport Thursday afternoon. Many thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:01:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981020161118.00a3e4b0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" whether or not huck finn is a racist tract, it is believed to be both racist and anti-racist, by different contingents and sometimes the same contingents (see Eric Lott's work, for example, which could be construed as both and anti-racist in intent and apologist in effect). At 4:11 PM -0700 10/20/98, Mark Weiss wrote: >Are you suggesting that Huck Finn is a racist tract or could even be taught >as such? > >At 04:46 PM 10/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Are we at the point that teaching a work is equivalent to endorsing >>everything in it, or necessitates an insurance policy against anything >>potentially offensive therein? The weirdness of this logic also applies to >>the idea that by excluding a given work in course we are stigmatizing it >>in some awful way. No matter how encylopedic a course is it will always >>exclude more than it can take in. >> >>Sartre said it was impossible to write a good work of literature that was >>racist or colonialist (I am paraphrasing forgive the inaccuracy of my >>memory). The logic is that literature is intrinsically on the side of >>human liberation. It's an argument that I don't hear much anymore--the >>contemporary equivalent is that the *study or *teaching of literature has >>to further human liberation. The same argument but once removed. >> >>Twain did not set out to write racist tracts; but racist tracts, insofar >>as they are taught, will probably taught as such, with the issue of race >>at the forefront. >> >>There is the famous "literary nullification" doctrine: if the work is >>great literature, then any anti-semitism, racism, etc... is automatically >>transcended. Pound's anti-semitism only *looks like anti-semitism, it is >>really something else. This is self-evidently ridiculous and leads to >>much tortured reasoning. Yet the idea that any one of us might be sued >>for teaching The Cantos makes me shudder... For that matter all works of >>literature written in the past will come up short when measured against >>contemporary sensibilities. >> >>Jonathan >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: new from meow press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meow Press has finally resumed its production schedule after a nearly three month hiatus. All of the various equipment, supplies and book parts are out of storage. After a relocating to Spring Valley, though keeping a tony La Jolla p.o. box, the production gnomes here in this tiny apartment are excited to bring forth more poetry products in the coming months. In celebration of the move to San Diego, Meow Press has added some new items to the catalog. Summer subscribers will receive these gratis. Jerome Rothenberg, _Paris Elegies & Improvisations_. 24p., $5.00 Bobbie West, _Scattered Damage_. 32p., $6.00 Joel Kuszai, _"A Miscellany"_. 56p., $6.00* Recent Publications: Ben Friedlander, _Selected Poems_. 40p., $6.00 Don Cheney, _The Qualms of Catullus & K-mart_. 32p., $6.00 Noemie Maxwell, _Thrum_. 24p., $5.00 Susan Schultz, _Addenda_. 32p., $6.00 In Production Now: Peter Jaeger, _Leasing Glass_. David Carl, _The Library_ Stephen Ratcliff, _Signature_ and more! *Limited Edition. I decided to publish my own book because it was time to be done with it and chasing after other publishers seemed like a task fraught with difficulties and discouragement. It is important to me, also, to be done with this particular work. While I may continue working on it (indeed this is just the first nine sections), it is time to make it available to a general--albeit specific and limited--public. Meow Press PO Box 948568 La Jolla, CA 92037 http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/presses ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:15:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: sandy ego reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh, and I will be reading with Todd Baron and Guy Bennett as part of the "Beyond the Page" reading series at the Faultline Theater in Hillcrest, San Diego. SUNDAY, OCT 25. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Magdalena Zurawski Subject: Monday Night Poetry Reading Comments: To: subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Please come and hear John McNally and Magdalena Zurawski read at The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church (2nd Ave. and 10th St.) on Monday October 26, 1998 at 8pm. Magdalena Zurawski Executive Development Programs Stern School of Business 44 W. 4th Street New York, NY 10012-1126 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ tel: 212 998 0270 fax: 212 995 4502 Departmental E-mail: exec-dev@stern.nyu.edu Website: www.stern.nyu.edu/executive ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:03:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hilton Obenzinger brought up the issue of how _Huck Finn_ is taught in High Schools, an issue which was brought to light for me last year when _Huck Finn_ was the University's "Text and Community" selection. "T and C" is an program here at George Mason in which a single work is chosen to be assigned in several different classes, along with presentations at various University venues dealing with the issues in the work. One of the questions I asked my classes about _Huck Finn_ was how the racial aspects were covered in their HS readings of the book (assuming that many had read it in HS). The response was surprising to me: the racial issues were ignored. Responses were generally along the lines of "we didn't talk about that" or even "we were told not to talk about that" (though I don't think anyone "told" them this outright. . .) Dean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Samizdat In-Reply-To: <362DDD9F.4535@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey folks: I just got the first issue of listguy Bob Archambeau's new periodical, _Samizdat_, and I'd like to put in a good word for it: _Sam._ displays the usual first-issue jitters, of course (someone listed in the contributors' page who's not in the mag, for instance), but other than that, it's outstanding -- translations of Polish and Swedish poets, good essays on their work, etc. I was also glad to see sections of a serial poem by Michael Barrett, a former UIC colleague of mine. For me, however, the most interesting thing was a review by Nathan Wallace of Selected Works volumes by Reginald Gibbons and Rosmarie Waldrop: Wallace highlights common elements shared by both of these poets (whose works I never would have thought of together) without blurring important differences. Well worth checking out if you haven't already seen it yet. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "And I remember somebody leaning up against the dirt wall of the hillside, deriding William Carlos Williams, when suddenly there was a loud roaring, crunching noise and a chunk of the hill fell off and covered the person up to his neck. The person, being a young classical poet fresh from NYU, begun screaming that he was being buried alive. Fortunately, the landslide stopped and we dug him out and dusted him off. That was the last time he said anything against William Carlos Williams. The next day he began reading _Journey to Love_ rather feverishly." --Richard Brautigan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:09:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Cope" at Oct 20, 98 11:44:56 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, Attali's book has been very importing to Nate Mackey's thinking around jazz, particularly in "Sound and Sentiment, Sound and Symbol" in *Discrepant Engagement*. -m. According to Stephen Cope: > > Just to mention here Jacques Attali's NOISE: THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF MUSIC > as a book which offers a kind of updated (and perhaps more enlightened) > historical take on music (although, if I remember, he makes use of Adorno > liberally). Worth checking out for those interested not so much in Adorno, > but in the kinds of questions Adorno raises vis-a-vis music. > > Any thoughts? > > Stephen > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:27:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Racial divisions are deep in the blood, >however cliched you might think it sounds. The intellectual responses to >race are good for bridging the genetic maelstrom, but my feelings, my >responses, if addressed forthright, in the past, have been defensive, >ending in an anger that feels engendered by misunderstandings. I think >the more engaged one becomes in a conversation re: race, the deeper into >the body the words go. And once you're in the body, look out, because >there are many years living there, I've discovered. > >Well, I didn't mean to say all that... But what Aldon brought up is >important, and I thought it should be addressed with, if not some solid >examples and rigorous comments, at least an impression of my emotional >responses to racial discussions. It's touchy business though, I must >confess, because what you know dissolves quickly in the wake of what you >feel. This has been my experience anyway. Dale -- while I don't have it in front of me to quote directly from, I've been reading Howard Zinn's People's History of the US recently & your words on words entering the body get me thinking about the laws passed before/after the writing of the Constitution & D of I that were designed in large part to further divisions between whites & blacks, specificly white indentured servants & black slaves as there were enough instances of their banding together to revolt against landowners to constitute a real threat to what was, at the time, a somewhat tenuous power structure. Furthermore, additional laws were passed intended to prevent interracial relations between individuals from reaching any real intimacy (physical, emotional, intellectual, down the line) much less getting past master/slave. I have a feeling I'm not telling you, or anyone else on this list, anything you don't already know, but I think there's enough evidence in our own legal history as a country that racial divisions in America were/are, in part, ushered into the blood, if you believe racial divisions are in the blood, by the word of the law & specific lawmakers which is a different beast altogether from the body & the intellect. That's not to imply that blame ought to be conveniently assigned to laws & lawmakers, but any conversation about racial divisions might make use of how legal language has managed to further those divisions; one might thereby prevent such a conversation from reeling solely between the pillar & post of intellectual & emotional responses (& the further divisions created by that opposition). Aldon -- I don't know of any instance where I was taught or witnessed the teaching of ideologically anti-white literature/writings. in my own teaching experience (teaching comp & remedial english at Brooklyn college) I've encountered the kind of "awkwardness" Shana mentioned (or isolation was the word I think) in regards to James Baldwin's "Notes of a Native Son", tho' only mildly, &, on a different wavelength, have had Stein's article "A picture of occupied France" be described as "the kind of writing that makes people believe the Holocaust never happened". Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" will hog more than one post to the list this morning (west coast) as I don't want to mix this response with other threads -- Jacques Attali's _Noise_ makes a number of really interesting points, but is marred by some weird errors -- identifies Carla Bley as a black musician -- refers to Beaver Harris by first name only, then compunds the confusion in the index by identifying him as "Paul Beaver" (we know it's Beaver Harris because it's in the context of his group The 360 Degree Experience) -- lines such as "free jazz, created with the Black Muslims . . . "[confirming my suspicion that prepositions are the biggest problem for any of us moving in a second language] ordinarily I would guess some of these were problems of translation, but the translation was done by Brian Massumi, who is usually quite good -- read the book anyway, but be on guard! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:59:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Adorno & Jazz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aldon Nielsen wrote: > Jacques Attali's _Noise_ makes a number of really interesting points, but > is marred by some weird errors -- > ..... > read the book anyway, but be on guard! yeah. good advice, aldon. Attali is known as something of a careless writer -- can't remember if it is this book or an earlier attali (maybe the one on time & time-pieces?) that created a major scandal in France because of rather obvious plagiarisms. pierre -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:42:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: new from meow press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain And please allow me to second that plug for Bobbie West's book, _Scattered Damage_, which is wonderfully quirky and delightful, animated by a truly playful and generous poetic spirit. She read here in Boulder last week for the Left Hand Series and really knocked us out. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:28:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" have particularly appreciated the new posts from Hilton and others -- some refreshingly clear thinking here this AM -- one of the problems with Huck in the classroom has been that few readers seem to be able to talk about a text that is simultaneously racist and antiracist -- I should have thought that anybody who'd read HEART OF DARKNESS would be able to have such a discussion, but it seems to send most Americans into hysterics -- If you've read widely in Twain, you already know that he was a man holding deeply contradictory ideas about race and nationality -- Hilton points us back to Pudd'nhead, and if you reread the final pages of that book you'll see much of the problem spread out before you -- a colleague at San Jose State a few years ago (David Mesher) gave me a great way to introduce some of these issues in class -- he had gone through several of the major anthologies that include Huck and copied out the footnotes that accompany the first appearance of the word "nigger" -- [quick example -- the seventh ed. of _The American Tradition in Literature_ gives the following: "In slave states, 'nigger' was not necessarily an abusive word, but merely the ordinary colloquial term for a slave." -- there are three or four class's worth of discussion there, beginning with that first phrase!] It was quite a revelation, and examining the rhetoric of those footnotes afforded a way of broaching the construction of race in that book without quite the level of hostility that often is to be expected -- And lest we forget, the first groups who wanted to banish Huck were "white" folks -- hardly "PC" -- I've no doubt that at any period the discussion of any work will center on issues that seem pressing contemporaneously -- but just WHEN in U.S. history would THIS not have been a pressing issue? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:51:52 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: my jazz pantheon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On the subject of jazz, I offer a small sampling of my private collection: Lester Young and Coleman Hawkins. Art Tatum. Basie and Ellington. Jo Jones. Armstrong. Teddy Wilson. Billie Holiday. Ella and Sarah. (Sinatra and Tony Bennett.) Fats Waller. Lionel Hampton before he became a republican. Parker, Gillespie. Monk, Miles, Mingus. Bud Powell. Sonny Rollins. Philly Joe Jones. Eric Dolphy. Coletrane. Ornette & Don Cherry. Charlie Haden. Paul Chambers. Elvin Jones. Cecil Taylor. Art Ensemble of Chicago. Braxton and Schepp (spelling?) Tito Puente. Danny Richmond. Ron Carter. Billy Higgins. Red Garland. Roy Haynes. Dewey Redman. Any drummer that can swing, especially Max Roach. Ray Charles. Mahalia Jackson. Milt Jackson... Blackwell... I am partial to singers, piano-players, saxophonists, drummers, and bass players. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:59:24 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this Content-Type: text/plain >I have a feeling I'm not telling you, or anyone else on this list, >anything you don't already know, but I think there's enough evidence >in our own legal history as a country that racial divisions in >America were/are, in part, ushered into the blood, if you believe >racial divisions are in the blood, by the word of the law & specific >lawmakers which is a different beast altogether from the body & the >intellect. That's not to imply that blame ought to be conveniently >assigned to laws & lawmakers, but any conversation about racial >divisions might make use of how legal language has managed to further >those divisions; one might thereby prevent such a conversation from >reeling solely between the pillar & post of intellectual & emotional >responses (& the further divisions created by that opposition). Anselm, I agree with you, and thanks for the reminder of how focused, direct and effective legal coucil has been to maintain racial divisions in this country (don't forget also about the Law and Real Estate's collusion in many places to maintain separation). Still, the question exists, how best to discuss race, or teach Huck Finn, etc. And, like you, I think that contradictory impulses of visceral and cerebral origins run through us as a people because of these Legal and theoretical manipulations. If someone wanted to explore the "legal language" of racial division in this country the resulting study would be rich in details of the corruption caused by certain wealthy interests. And then, what of the results? What does our knowledge really do for us? I think that it's good for conversations about race to be very tense--stretched--because the alternative avoids the sticky realm of experience for theoretical possibilities, is slack, lazy or indifferent. I don't suggest addressing issues of race, or anything for that matter, through separate conditions of emotional or mental activities. Both aspects could be fused to enhance intellectual understanding with emotional realism through the speed of bodily perception. Part of the trouble is that our language can be so divisive. And, not that you would misunderstand me, but to clarify as much for myself as anyone, what I mean by "blood" is genetic, cosmological, asocial, astrological, atavistic, ancient pre-law, pre-US sort of stuff. Which is another conversation. What is so interesting to me about racial discussion is that a language like English that is normally so compartmentalizing and total has to be made compact enough to reflect the strange, fluid migrations of thought into the body, and vice versa, when subjects of race come up. So thanks for the thoughtful note and give me some ideas on narrowing the gaps between those pillars and posts. Your Pal, Dale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:12:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this In-Reply-To: <19981021195926.28803.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dale wrote: "And, not that you would misunderstand me, but to clarify as much for myself as anyone, what I mean by "blood" is genetic, cosmological, asocial, astrological, atavistic, ancient pre-law, pre-US sort of stuff. Which is another conversation. What is so interesting to me about racial discussion is that a language like English that is normally so compartmentalizing and total has to be made compact enough to reflect the strange, fluid migrations of thought into the body, and vice versa, when subjects of race come up." With clarifications like this, who needs confusion? I am totally in the dark about what any of this means. Is the genetic the astrological, for example? Is English inherently compartmentalized? Is compartmentalizing the opposite of compact? Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: Christina Fairbank Chirot Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems light years ago that Leslie Fielder saw a gay text in Huck Finn--the desire to get away from women and get to the Indian territories --the West--(though Twain already knew himself what lay out there)--and "go native"--a strand for sure which as Fielder demonstrates runs through much of American Literature--"the Vanishing American"--the "gay camerados" so to speak-- the anti women strain--the wilderness, away from laws and money (though Twain had written so much of money in Roughing It and other works--The Gilded Age, Life Along the Mississippi and so on--the buried treasure aspect of life that Huck and Tom dream about and play at--) away from religion-- of course the best way to "become Indian" is to get rid of the Indians first--and make a Frontier Land theme Park where it's "safe" to play out the roles, mix up tribes and customs and languages and create the kind of Pan Indianism trhat threatens to be a New Age colonialism that is a kindler and gentler way of repeating the first brutal waves of colonisation-- of course Huck Finn is disturbing book in many ways--one reason why it's still read--have things really changed so much since its writing?--walking the streets it's hard to tell how much really has-- racism is an American obsession-- homophobia as advanced by the Christian Right and others is a form of racism that Protestant groups in coming to what is now Canada and the USA used to get rid of Indians--the Indians were ruled to have no souls--they were non-people--so it didn't count it you killed them--(except as "body count--it was for the Good, don't you see--and the same applies to gays now, who are painted as "unnatural" and perverted" in their "choice"--and so beyond the pale of God's laws and grace etc-- (the religious/racist aspect also evident in the KKK wwwhich was originally formed to kill Catholics--who were most often of various unwanted ethnic groups--)(my relatives all believed JFK was killed beacuse he was Catholic)-- one of the dreams of Huck Finn is to come to a place that is AWAY from racism (and women and religion)--but that dream of freedom is expressed as becoming Indian--both by supplanting the Indian and imitating him--(shades of the Duke and the Dolphin and their mangled shams and charades--)--kind of a bizarre twist on Deleuze and Guattari's idea of "becoming Indian/Black?Woman etc"--) so even in "freedom" from racism, this is only achieved through a dispacment of racism--to a new sphere, a new identity--which always opens up the opportunites for colonization--(both literally and in the Deleuzian sense)-- an example of this that comes to mind is the Black Holocaust Museum founded by Mr. James Cameron here in Milwaukee. Mr. Cameron is the sole survivor of a mob lynching in Indiana decades ago--his Muesum is an expression of his and his people's experince of a continual Holocaust in the USA--however, many Jewish groups protested the Muesum, because the word Holocaust is only supposed to refer to "the" Holocaust in Europe--which is another form of dispalcing racism as it happened hitorically in the USA and continues today--to the sphere of Europe again, this seems a repitition of colonization--to territorize as D and G say, a word, (Holocaust)to claim an experience soley as one's own and deny it to others--or to deny the language for such experiences to others--returning, as is ever the American way, all issues to a quesion of PROPERTY--whether in language or land (and both are often the same when it comes to PROPERTY--through the device of Naming)-- and this dispacment helps to divert many of the questions which Huck Finn prompts, that American history does and to divert from history as it happoened here--which is helpful, for a nation without a history is easier to conform and control-- one of the points of Huck Finn may be that there is no escape from Property,Reilgion (or today "Ethics" and "Legality" and so on--) and Racism--at least as long as one is ever on the run from it, continually displacing it in time and space only to reencounter it even in the dreams of freedom when it is bought at the expense of others (in Huck's case--the Indians are the next frontier--and then on to Vietnam . . . ) actually, racism in Huck Finn was taught when I was in high school--but then that was the Sixties, albeit in New Hampshire--we also talked abt the class/racial aspect as I recall because the teacher could look around the room and see plain as day which kids were going to Nam and which not--draft or no draft--would Huck have been sent to Nam? you knew Jim would be--not Tom for sure--and so on-- the effortsd to ban Huck seem to center around two things: Lanuage and Racism-- maybe this is to keep people from learning to make the connection of Language and Racism with property and from there to the question of "intellectual property"--and who owns Language--- (Twain hints at this in a way, in pointing out that the book contains many different dialects--and often noting the class differences in language usage--one could go into the exploitation language the Duke and the Dauphin use to exploit those who lack Royalty--not just of France but of the Imperial English Theater of the Bard --) the Duke and the Dalphin for example raise many questions regarding the "legitimacy" of claims not only to Imperial thrones and power, but to the Imperial power of language--deposed French aristocrats playing British roles (the British as deposed aristocrats of the America Revolution)--acting vs. impersonating in terms of claims to property and language and history--think of "black faced mistrels" or the Boston Tea Party with its painted "indians"--) the arguments abt Huck Finn often seem to want to polarize the book in an either/or manner--that is, to narrow down, isolate and judge the book from a "perspective"--and perspective means of course the structure of the field of vision so that the spectaor is in "the driver's seat" so to speak-- rather than to try to open up the shifting uses of language, race, property, re;ligion, gender et all--and to think about these questions not just a fiction/fixing of the past, but as enduring fictions and attempts to fix the present-- "both and"-- and, to again adopt the vocabulary of Messers. Deleuze and Gauttaur (are THEY the Duke and Dolphin, these frenchmen?)-- "elusive to capture" --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:43:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: there's another question at the end of this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------672C762FE9EFAA34D09B13DD" --------------672C762FE9EFAA34D09B13DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > Dale wrote: > > "And, not that you would misunderstand me, but to clarify as much for > myself as anyone, what I mean by "blood" is genetic, cosmological, > asocial, astrological, atavistic, ancient pre-law, pre-US sort of stuff. > Which is another conversation. What is so interesting to me about racial > discussion is that a language like English that is normally so > compartmentalizing and total has to be made compact enough to reflect > the strange, fluid migrations of thought into the body, and vice versa, > when subjects of race come up." > > With clarifications like this, who needs confusion? I am totally in the > dark about what any of this means. Is the genetic the astrological, for > example? Is English inherently compartmentalized? Is compartmentalizing > the opposite of compact? > > Jonathan I'm another in-the-dark-er. This reminds me of something I never figured out. What do people mean by *genetic memory*? I always assumed they meant something asinine and Larmarckian, like that our experiences alter our genetic material. I take the word genetics very literally. Maybe I'm missing the point. Can anyone explain this genetic memory? Laura P.S. To those who hate replied-to messages left in the body of the reply, my apologies, but otherwise I'd have to explain what I was responding to... context, context, context -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree with me either, and time just kept on passing." (Henri Michaux) --------------672C762FE9EFAA34D09B13DD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MAYHEW wrote:

Dale wrote:

"And, not that you would misunderstand me, but to clarify as much for
myself as anyone, what I mean by "blood" is genetic, cosmological,
asocial, astrological, atavistic, ancient pre-law, pre-US sort of stuff.
Which is another conversation. What is so interesting to me about racial
discussion is that a language like English that is normally so
compartmentalizing and total has to be made compact enough to reflect
the strange, fluid migrations of thought into the body, and vice versa,
when subjects of race come up."

With clarifications like this, who needs confusion? I am totally in the
dark about what any of this means. Is the genetic the astrological, for
example?  Is English inherently compartmentalized?  Is compartmentalizing
the opposite of compact?

Jonathan

I'm another in-the-dark-er. This reminds me of something I never figured out. What do people mean by *genetic memory*? I always assumed they meant something asinine and Larmarckian, like that our experiences alter our genetic material. I take the word genetics very literally. Maybe I'm missing the point. Can anyone explain this genetic memory?

Laura
P.S. To those who hate replied-to messages left in the body of the reply, my apologies, but otherwise I'd have to explain what I was responding to...  context, context, context

--
Laura Wright, Library Assistant
Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute
2130 Arapahoe Ave
Boulder, CO 80302
(303) 546-3547
 * * * * * *
"Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers).  This did not agree
with me either, and time just kept on passing."
 (Henri Michaux)
  --------------672C762FE9EFAA34D09B13DD-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: Christina Fairbank Chirot Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Fwd: BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DO ON THE PHONE (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (more language & prroperty) FYI: Subject: PLEASE READ THIS!!!!! Please share. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DO ON THE PHONE PLEASE READ THIS!!!!! Pass this along . . . This is serious. Please read. I received a telephone call from an individual identifying himself as an AT&T Service Technician who was conducting a test on our telephone lines. He stated that to complete the test we should touch nine (9),zero (0), the pound sign (#) and then hang up. Luckily, we were suspicious and refused. I contacted the telephone company we were informed that by pushing 90# you give the requesting individual full access to your telephone line, which allows them to place a long distance telephone calls billed to your home phone number. We were further informed that this scam has been originating from many of the local jails/prisons. Please beware. This sounds like an Urban Legend - IT IS NOT!!! I also called GTE Security this morning and verified that this is definitely possible. DO NOT press 90# for ANYONE. The GTE Security department requested that I share this information with EVERYONE I KNOW!!! Could you PLEASE pass this on. If you have mailing lists and/or newsletters from organizations you are connected with, I encourage you to pass on this information. Also Family members! ______________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, write to MilwaukeeConnection-unsubscribe@listbot.com Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:14:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: the law of diminishing returns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" since it was a case in law that got me started on this set of questions this week, I should have thought to mention an essay that's particulalry good on these topics -- the talk of property in the recent posts reminded me (also reminded me how much property is an active issue throughout Huck) -- a good instigation may be had by all who read Cheryl Harris's essay "Whiteness as Property" -- among the several places you can find it is in the massive _Critical Race Theory_ anthology pub'd by The New Press -- It also appeared in the Harvard law Review, if yr closer to a law library -- and has more to do with poetics than one might expect -- (and she's married to a poet, as it happens) -- AND -- is anyone out there located at the University of Indiana -- I need somebody to look for something in special collections for me -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:25:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbuuck Subject: announcing tripwire 2 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tripwire: a journal of poetics announces its second issue: Writing as Activism: The Aesthetics of Political Engagement featuring work by: Steve Farmer, Ben Friedlander, Rodrigo Toscano, Brenda Iijima, Brian Kim Stefans, Noah de Lissovoy, Kristin Prevallet, Jack Hirschman, Sarah Anne Cox & Elizabeth Treadwell, Rod Smith, Rob Fitterman, Dodie Bellamy, Patrick F. Durgin, William T. Ayton; plus excerpts from Danielle Collobert's Notebooks 1956-78, translated by Norma Cole, with an afterword by Uccio Esposito-Torrigiani; an interview (with collages) with Atlanta xerox artist Lawless Crow, conducted by John Lawther & Randy Prunty; and reviews by Kathy Lou Schultz (on Margy Sloan's Moving Borders), Pamela Lu (Jocelyn Saidenberg's Mortal City), Louis Cabri (Rodrigo Toscano's The Disparities), Juliana Spahr (Dodie Bellamy's Letters of Mina Harker), Anselm Berrigan (Peter Gizzi's Artificial Heart), Lytle Shaw (on the art of Mark Shepard), & Chris Chen (on Celan). perfect-bound, 183 pages. $8 ($15 for 2 issue subscription) tripwire c/o Yedda Morrison & David Buuck PO Box 420936 SF CA 94142-0936 also available (very shortly) from Small Press Distribution. a few remaining copies of issue #1 also still available from SPD. The theme for issue #3 is Gender (see issue 2 for more details). tripwire accepts essays, reviews, interviews, translations, letters, and visual art (reproducible in black & white). At this time we are not accepting unsolicited poetry. Deadline for #3 is March 1, 1999. note to contributors & subscribers: your copies are on their way... inquiries, etc. to above address &/or to yedd@aol.com best, Yedda Morrison & David Buuck ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:02:31 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: SD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd Baron Guy Bennet Joel Kuszai are reading at THE FAULTLINE THEATER (a series curated by Stephen Cope and Joe Ross) SERIES 4pm sunday ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 03:03:09 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: sandy ego reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit O h ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII pardon my toeing a strict post-structuralist line (not one that I entirely believe in, anyway), but in _Discipline and Punish_ (by now the classic formulation of this proposition, though Judith Butler has put her own spin on the issues more recently), Foucault claims that discourse inscribes itself upon the body (think Kafka's "Penal Colony") to such a degree that claiming there is atavistic, before culture element of our thinking is not possible. there is no there there. for instance, in the atrocities in the Balkans, it is not nationalism which has somehow inscribed itself on Serbian soul in the 14th century, but rather the intervention of Milosevic and others in reanimating (really rearticulating) a cultural discourse about Serb victimization that caused the conflict. There is monolithic, naturally anti-Croat/Bosnian part of the Serb soul, but war criminal politicians and their lackeys who generated a conflict in perhaps one of the most mixed of all European societies. And it was in a rather more concrete manner than discourse, as nationalists controlled the media (makes you wonder about NPR--is it an opiate or palliative for intellectuals?). That said, I myself tend towards thinking there is a substrate, not reducible to discourse, that is accessed by rabid nationalists and xenophobes, only it does not come predetermined. If the racism is "embodied," we have to realize that it is because it has been tattooed onto the amerrican body through law, economics, and culture. Otherwise, to say there is a tendency to be racist that is "in the blood" sounds like bad sociobiology. Robert On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > Dale wrote: > > "And, not that you would misunderstand me, but to clarify as much for > myself as anyone, what I mean by "blood" is genetic, cosmological, > asocial, astrological, atavistic, ancient pre-law, pre-US sort of stuff. > Which is another conversation. What is so interesting to me about racial > discussion is that a language like English that is normally so > compartmentalizing and total has to be made compact enough to reflect > the strange, fluid migrations of thought into the body, and vice versa, > when subjects of race come up." > > With clarifications like this, who needs confusion? I am totally in the > dark about what any of this means. Is the genetic the astrological, for > example? Is English inherently compartmentalized? Is compartmentalizing > the opposite of compact? > > Jonathan > Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:37:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Quote Source Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm thinking that I recently read a quote on the List that went something like, "He never let facts get in the way of telling a good story," something to do with journalism. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Please backchannel me. Thanks, Pete B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just to say, stunning post from dave chirot on language, property, class, race, twain and d & g!... and i think of how victor jory's "injun joe" in _the adventures of tom sawyer_ (1938) was generally reckoned as one of the meanest cinematic villains... /// joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Fwd: BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DO ON THE PHONE (fwd) Comments: To: Christina Fairbank Chirot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Oh my god - the prisoners are taking over the C3I system! Thanks, David. I passed this along to a professor at CU, Michael Preston, who's teaching a course on Modern Legends next semester. This is a great addition to the collection. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:40:14 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ... Foucault claims that discourse inscribes > itself upon the body (think Kafka's "Penal Colony") to such a degree that > claiming there is atavistic, before culture element of our thinking is not > possible. there is no there there. It's precisely this out-of-hand dismissal of the non-cultural that puts me off Foucault et al. Sure, we are cultural beings, but we are also mammals; we are also lumps of meat. > Otherwise, to say there is a tendency to be racist that is "in the blood" > sounds like bad sociobiology. I'm sure that hard-line post-structuralists would consider "bad sociobiology" to be a tautology. And sociobiological use of terms such as "tendency" and "predisposition", while avoiding the determinism of "drive", "instinct" and so forth, are perhaps worse because of their vagueness. But, here goes... I don't think that we have a genetic tendency towards racism, as such. But I do think we have innate tendencies to recognise differences and similarities, and that we may have an inbuilt distrust of anything strange/different/other. Which would make it easy for cultural factors (especially when combined with territoriality) to mold/channel/twist this distrust into hatred. It's never this simple, of course, and when genetic impulses feed their energy into the complex dynamic systems of human psychology and culture, the end result may be fear or desire instead (or as well as) hatred. Attempts to find biological influences upon human behaviour are often dismissed as being inherently racist/sexist or whatever, as they are seen to be merely justifications of the status quo: "but it's natural for women and men to be different blah blah". But I think that it's important to know all the possible sources for our actions: if we see destructive behaviour and want to change it, we need to be aware of how difficult it might be. Cheers, Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Spicer Query In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1). Please someone hep me. Hep. 2). I need to know the locus platypus of the Spicer line that goes something like "Oh you who have fallen down on your head...." 3). Have neither the time nor the Advil to skim _The Collected Books of..._: would anyone happen to know if not the poem's title, then at least the precise book in which this line hides. Who knows this off? 4). This platypus is very important to me. Thanks, GG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:38:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sean Casey Subject: Bill Knott & Robert Peters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Couple Q's -- Anyone here know much about Bill Knott (in any of his incarnations)? If so, love to here from you, backchannel. I'm trying to write a piece on him and information is, yes, scarce. His complete bio on his select poems volume is: "Bill Knott lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts." -- Also, if anyone has an address for Robert Peters, snail mail or e-mail, please backchannel. Thanks Sean Casey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:19:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eurydice@AOL.COM Subject: Big Allis 8 Redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List, Just a (hopefully) gentle reminder (or encouragement) that there are only ten more days left to take advantage of this most fabulous special and so on offer (previously posted but copied below for your convenience). By the "your order" (to be received before All Saint's Day), I mean simply a small e-mail saying "boo," saying "yes," saying "sure--send me one." Much thanks in advance (and apologies for the repetition). All Best, Deirdre < Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: New York 1966 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Standard Schaefer's questions about NY in the sixties embolden me to try to reconstruct some musty memories of my runaway teen years on the Lower East Side. I remember seeing John Ashbery read at a theater with fixed seats (and being somewhat astonished at how sedate, or even dull, this reading was, given THE TENNIS COURT OATH which was and remains my favorite Ashbery book). And then I recall seeing Andy Warhol's Exploding Plastic Inevitable mixed-media show (with the Velvet Underground) and I *seem* to recall (but is this possible?) that this event followed the Ashbery reading, in the same space. Does anyone remember? Am also trying to make sense of jumbled memories of a club called the Dom, on St. Marks Place. Warhol ran it or had something to do with it --and yes the Velvets played there too, but it did not have fixed seats (unless I am severely mentally impaired) and so cannot be the venue for the possibly Ashbery-related show above. But I also recall this space as the Balloon Farm, and in that incarnation it had a distinct Warhol connection as well. Does anyone remember this club, which later went on to have a non-Warholian existence as the Electric Circus? Am I insane to be recalling it as the Dom at one point and the Balloon Farm at another? Calling on the group mind (but perhaps backchannel so we don't bore the youngsters), Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: Re: New York 1966 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel, re: your last comment: > (but perhaps backchannel so we don't bore the youngsters), Don't you dare! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:50 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Jim Leftwich MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying to get in touch with Jim Leftwich, but the email address I found on EPC bounced Can anyone give me an up-to-date address? L --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:15:46 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Anselm Hollo publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I announce on behalf of Writers Forum, which doesn't have an email, the publication of Anselm Hollo's "AHOE 2" It was launched at Anselm's Sub Voicive Poetry reading in London on Tuesday evening last Hollo, Anselm; AHOE 2(Johnny Cash writes a letter to Santa Claus); 0 86162 831 4; Writers Forum, October 1998; £3.00 plus £1.00 Orders / payments to New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 8QT NB Sterling payments only --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: Spicer Query In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Gabe: It is from After Lorca. It is one of the false translations, in other words, doesn't correspond to an existent Lorca poem. Title is the Ballad of the Dead Woodcutter. This line occurs as a sort of absurd refrain: Oh, you have fallen down on your head. You have fallen on your head. On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > 1). Please someone hep me. Hep. > > 2). I need to know the locus platypus of the Spicer line that goes > something like "Oh you who have fallen down on your head...." > > 3). Have neither the time nor the Advil to skim _The Collected Books > of..._: Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:05:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: coupla q's In-Reply-To: <1a3efca.362e9624@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1) i know this is elementary and basic and i should already know it, but just why was the *sentence* the primary unit of interest for many of the SF langpos? 2) does anyone have any insights into the history of the concept of revision? you hear it so insistently as a basic principle of "creative writing" that it seems natural and normative. but *when* and *how* did this principle evolve to occupy a place of such prominence in what's called the "writing process"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: coupla q's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On number 2, my theory is that the present day importance of revision comes originates from Flaubert's heroic struggle with style. See Barthes' Zero Degree of Writing. If it did not originate there this is at least its locus classicus. But of course there is the image of Horace polishing his Odes also. Henry James might also be mentioned. On number 1, Silliman's The New Sentence (correct title?) would be the obvious point of departure. Does this come from Stein's focus on the sentence? Perhaps a reaction to the preoccupation with the line as breath unit among the Olsonites? Good question. On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > 1) i know this is elementary and basic and i should already know it, but > just why was the *sentence* the primary unit of interest for many of the SF > langpos? > > 2) does anyone have any insights into the history of the concept of > revision? you hear it so insistently as a basic principle of "creative > writing" that it seems natural and normative. but *when* and *how* did > this principle evolve to occupy a place of such prominence in what's called > the "writing process"? > Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:54:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: New York 1966 Rachel, From one old fogey to another: Yes I remember the Dom and the Electric Circus but not the Balloon Farm. My favorite little memory from that year (1966): Having been totally blown away by Diane DiPrima's chapbook THIS KIND OF BIRD FLIES BACKWARDS, I attended a reading by her at St. Mark's, a bare room with some folding chairs and a plain square table in front of them. And there she was, in flesh--this petite redhead, hair loose here and there, in jeans I think, and she read and it was great, and (there was to be a second reader but I can't recall who) when she finished she immediately explained that she had to leave right away because she had four kids at home looking after themselves, the oldest eleven yeas old (was that Tara?). The reading was a graceful and exciting (almost) as that wonderful book, some of which--while my memory of those days has much faded and probably become distorted--I still have by heart. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Spicer's Lorca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Jonathan: I noticed your response to Gabriel Gudding on the Spicer line. Do you in fact know of anyone who has done a poem by poem study of _After Lorca_ to figure out where the "translations" are translations and where they are not? Or in those poems that are "minotaurs," which parts are which? I seem to recall seeing something about Robin Blaser having at least gone into this, but I'm not sure. Have you, by some chance, done this yourself? I've been working on and off on an essay on JS's _After Lorca_ and would be very interested if you or anyone would know something about this. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:45:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: the new sentence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ron Silliman's invaluable book's title notwithstanding, I think it was more a matter of what went on between sentences. Of course it couldnt be done without sentences. But I dont remember that much happened with/to the structure of the sentences. It was how they were laid up against each other that lit up our lives. We had the principle of discontinuity from any number of sources, and the challenge then became to have something said by confronting readers with the decision as to whether sentence 2 follows sentence 1 in anything more than space. It was as much a matter of "The New Paragraph," and let's recall Stein's "a sentence is not emotional a paragraph is." The proposition--Jonathan's, I think--that the excellent work on the line by the generation immediately previous, would not be rewarding to improve upon, and that, therefore, what could be done with sentences, became attractive, has merit. I would direct interested parties to Bob Grenier's work at that time, poems often of a single line, thus sentence as much as line.Then came his box of cards called "Sentencing" (I think, but cant lay my hands on it right now; perhaps it was "Sentences"?). A look at the early issues of _This_ (eds, Grenier and Watten) discloses "sentence-work" by a number of us. I would suggest this in part stemmed from Minimalism--once you have the proposition of single-line poems, the path to that particular sub-genre of prose poetry, opens up. Be good to hear Ron on this (I may here be repeating what he has said more eloquently in his book), but I know he is readying himself for his California tour. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:07:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Alice Notley in SF TONIGHT! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic presents Alice Notley Thursday, October 22, 7:30 p.m. New College Theater 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 Alice Notley was born in Bisbee, Arizona, went to Barnard and Iowa (MFA, 1969). She married the writer Ted Berrigan in 1972, with whom she had two sons, one of whom grew up and became for a short period the manager of Small Press Traffic. Now married to the British poet Doug Oliver, she lives in Paris, like Olivia de Havilland. Like her actress counterpart, she radiates strength, inner beauty, quiet dignity and warmth. She's many things to many people, and her books include When I Was Alive, Waltzing Matilda, Doctor Williams' Heiresses, How Spring Comes, a book of Selected Poems, The Descent of Alette and the new Mysteries of Small Houses. No poet of her generation has so captured the heart and imagination of the young writers of today, both for her dedication to poetry and for her ground-shifting and -breaking mutability, from domestic to epic and back again somewhere else. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:10:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: MacCormack & Silliman in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic presents Karen MacCormack Ron Silliman Friday, October 30, 7:30 p.m. New College Theater 777 Valencia Street $5 Karen MacCormack's poetry always seems to arise out of a state of emergency, at the "point of collapse." She would disdain the suggestion of heroism in her writing, but I read it as a heroic effort to bring light into the dark conjunctions of language, effort, and technology. I have long wanted to get another chance to hear Karen MacCormack read in San Francisco; thank you, Stanford University, and Marjorie Perloff, for helping to make this dream come true! MacCormack is the author of six books of poetry, most recently The Tongue Moves Talk (Chax Press/West House Books, 1997), and Marine Snow (ECW Press, 1995). New from Coach House Books is the online version of Fit to Print, MacCormack's collaboration with the English poet Alan Halsey (trade publication from Coach House/West House Books to follow any minute). Her work has appeared in such anthologies as Moving Borders, Out of Everywhere, and The Art of Practice. Of dual Canadian/British citizenship, she lives in Toronto. Another hero of poetry! Ron Silliman lived in the Bay Area from 1947 until 1995, including 17 years in San Francisco spent variously in the Mission, Bernal Heights, the Haight, Potrero Hill and "Baja Pacific Heights." He's now living in an oak wood twenty miles west of Philadelphia, but he always finds his way back to the Bay Area, just as swallows are said to return to Capistrano and salmon to swim upstream. The University of Alabama Press will publish his poem, The Alphabet, in its entirety if he ever finishes writing it. Silliman is currently a Pew Fellow in the Arts. Quarry West is devoting an issue to his writing sometime in the near future. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:12:43 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Pinochet & poetry Content-Type: text/plain Now that Gen. Pinochet is a guest of the state, so to speak, in the UK, this would be an excellent moment to raise the issue of poets and writers killed by his regime. Does anyone on the Poetics List have either a good source thereon? If so, please write to me directly before Saturday. Thanks much, Ron Silliman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:35:49 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: coupla q's Content-Type: text/plain "1) i know this is elementary and basic and i should already know it, but just why was the *sentence* the primary unit of interest for many of the SF langpos?" M. Damon Perfectly good question. Olson's poetics, based on the equation of line & breath, had been the most rigorous formulation of the previous decade or two, and one could read a wide range of material (from O'Hara to Ginsberg) with such in mind [ignoring, of course, a few very pointed exceptions, such as Spicer and some of Ashbergy]. But there were obvious flaws with this equation, especially with Olson's superimposition of Place on top of the whole, so that the prospect of writing in this tradition began to appear to be a "fill in the blank" completion of an already implicit literary geography (as in "he breaks his lines just like someone from Ukiah"). Each succeeding poem would thus be a less significant formal act. Sentences and paragraphs were one way out of that. It's worth noting that the "miniaturist" tendency -- Saroyan, the Grenier of _Sentences_ -- turns up first. Sentences and paragraphs also had the advantage of raising some international(ist) issues vis a vis surrealism, European poetry in general, that the excessive jingoism of Olson (or Williams for that matter) never really addresses. Remember: WCW's complaint against Eliot was, in part, that it was "too European." During the 60s, only Duncan and Rothenberg were really advocating for Stein (who was really hard to get hold of in that period) and nobody quite knew what to do with Kora in Hell: Improvisations. Harvey Brown's pirate edition of WCW's Spring & All came out right around 1970 (forcing ND to finally get it back into print for the first time in about 30 years), and that came as a huge shock. So, with Coolidge's first long poems, then Ashbery's Three Poems and Creeley's Mabel and A Day Book, there was just a lot of stuff in the air. It suddenly seemed to be an area in which there was an enormous amount of work that could be done without already being weighed down by too much prior stuff. Ron ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:54:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: Pinochet & poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ron: I don't happen to know much about the writers who were killed under his regime, but I have just come across the most amazine Chilean poet named Juan Luis Martinez who does a lot of political punning through things looking much like syllogisms. Martinez was bit older than Pinochet as I understand it and also apparently toward the end of his life became a fan of Spicer's. I'm going to try to substantiate my claim about Martinez's greatness with a few translations in the next Rhizome. The translator has been working on Martinez, a slightly younger man Sergio Parra whose politics are overt and style is slightly straightforwards, a few very young Chilean poets who are fans of both Martinez and Spicer. Kinda weird. Anyway, I will ask the translator today about your question re: Pinochet's murders. SS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:56:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: main Subject: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i just received the latest issue of _mike & dale's younger poets_ & find that the title of the piece i'd submitted to them was mis-printed should be "aerial photograph of an elephant graveyard"; is "aerial photograph of an elephant". over the past five years of contributing writing to smaller magazines, i'd guess that roughly 1/3 of my work has had at least one typographical error (from missing punctuation to misspellings, problems with layout, etc.). has this been anyone else's experience? i find it deplorable that so many small magazines are misprinting works. where is the careful proof-reading? in order to cut costs and save time, fewer and fewer small magazines send proofs to writers. but the real cost is publishing work as it was _not_ intended to be read. too many small magazine editors seem to have an assembly line/drive-thru mentality regarding the product: just get another issue out, no matter the quality and accuracy, no matter the process, without taking the time to carefully proof the work. what they end up publishing is _not_ what was submitted! once an editor tells me they're using my work, i assume that it will appear (given, of course, the physical constraints of the magazine) as i wrote it. is this too much to ask? poets are supposed to be attentive to language, but what good is it if the publishers of poetry are inattentive? what's the point of even publishing a text that's full of errors? if small magazine editors want their magazines to be taken seriously as bringing forward the news, then they need to get the facts straight and take more pride in their work: a magazine's reputation is built not only on content but form. editors need to keep in mind that they're the custodians between the writer and the reader-- a role requiring pride and careful work. it may come to this: poets who care about accuracy more than publication will no longer send work to magazines that do not provide proof or have a reputation for eagle-eye editing. and readers who care to read what was actually written will no longer subscribe to magazines that do a sloppy job of editing. errors are human, and errors in language can be both delightful and insightful, "wanderings" bearing the maker's handprint, the beautiful flaw. but an error in the very title of a poem strikes me as gross carelessness. in all fairness, there are many small magazine editors who, from my own experiences, take editing as an art form requiring skill and attention not unlike the skill and attention of composing a poem. jeff hansen's _poetic briefs_, juliana spahr and jena osman's _chain_, lee chapman's _first intensity_, and ed foster's _talisman_ come to mind. such accuracy should be the norm, not the exception. all it takes is care-- to care about the language, what you say and how you say it. is that too much to ask? dan featherston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:30:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: from "main" at Oct 22, 98 10:56:25 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can appreciate Dan's vitriol here though I think some sympathy for hard-working small mag editors is in order as well. I'd say time is more often the significant factor in fuck-ups. You want to get your issue out, you're excited, you've got a small window to do it, etc, & you miss things. Now, that said, I do think careful editing can and should be done. I spent a hell of a lot of time proof reading the first issue of COMBO and I did it for one simple and polemical reason: to drive home the point that my project was just as goddamn important as what those sonsabitches at *Poetry* are doing. I think I did a good job. In several cases where the typography or font-play was intricate I sent proofs. And so far no complaints (though now I'm waiting to be blindsided by one of my wonderful contributors). I've had, yeah, maybe a third of my poems include small errors ("a" instead of "an," lines broken wrongly, etc), and its a drag. You want things to look right, to look nice. And if a little extra scrutiny can keep piece in our little experimental Camelot then I say lets keep our eye on the ball. -m. According to main: > > i just received the latest issue of _mike & dale's younger poets_ & find > that the title of the piece i'd submitted to them was mis-printed > > should be "aerial photograph of an elephant graveyard"; > is "aerial photograph of an elephant". > > over the past five years of contributing writing to smaller magazines, i'd > guess that roughly 1/3 of my work has had at least one typographical error > (from missing punctuation to misspellings, problems with layout, etc.). > has this been anyone else's experience? > > i find it deplorable that so many small magazines are misprinting works. > where is the careful proof-reading? in order to cut costs and save > time, fewer and fewer small magazines send proofs to writers. but the real > cost is publishing work as it was _not_ intended to be read. too many small > magazine editors seem to have an assembly line/drive-thru mentality > regarding the product: just get another issue out, no matter the quality > and accuracy, no matter the process, without taking the time to carefully > proof the work. what they end up publishing is _not_ what was > submitted! once an editor tells me they're using my work, i assume > that it will appear (given, of course, the physical constraints of > the magazine) as i wrote it. is this too much to ask? > > poets are supposed to be attentive to language, but what good is it if > the publishers of poetry are inattentive? what's the point of even > publishing a text that's full of errors? if small magazine editors want > their magazines to be taken seriously as bringing forward the news, then > they need to get the facts straight and take more pride in their work: a > magazine's reputation is built not only on content but form. editors need > to keep in mind that they're the custodians between the writer and the > reader-- a role requiring pride and careful work. > > it may come to this: poets who care about accuracy more than publication > will no longer send work to magazines that do not provide proof or have a > reputation for eagle-eye editing. and readers who care to read what was > actually written will no longer subscribe to magazines that do a sloppy > job of editing. errors are human, and errors in language can be both > delightful and insightful, "wanderings" bearing the maker's handprint, the > beautiful flaw. but an error in the very title of a poem strikes me as > gross carelessness. > > in all fairness, there are many small magazine editors who, from my own > experiences, take editing as an art form requiring skill and attention > not unlike the skill and attention of composing a poem. jeff hansen's > _poetic briefs_, juliana spahr and jena osman's _chain_, lee chapman's > _first intensity_, and ed foster's _talisman_ come to mind. such accuracy > should be the norm, not the exception. all it takes is care-- to care > about the language, what you say and how you say it. is that too much to > ask? > > dan featherston > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: coupla q's Comments: To: MAYHEW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Don't have Ron's essay in front of me, but he states that the inspiration and/or exemplar for the New Sentence comes from WCW's _Kora in Hell_. But also, yes, from Stein. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: MAYHEW To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: coupla q's Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:20AM On number 1, Silliman's The New Sentence (correct title?) would be the obvious point of departure. Does this come from Stein's focus on the sentence? Perhaps a reaction to the preoccupation with the line as breath unit among the Olsonites? Good question. On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > 1) i know this is elementary and basic and i should already know it, but > just why was the *sentence* the primary unit of interest for many of the SF > langpos? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:21:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mike's point is a good one. I, too, have had work published with errors. However, having also edited, I can tell you that the poets are by far the bigger problem. A number of them can't spell and send you eighteen drafts asking you to change things all the way through the process, sometimes doable, sometimes quite difficult. (Right now Jaques Debrot is thinking that I am speaking about him, but I am not. Suffice it to say they are actually local-- L. A writers who call you up at all hours to tell you that they because they think they're doing something typographically innovative, that you should adjust your magazine parameters). Some want to know why you list their work as "Three poems" on the contents page, and not the full title. The answer is becausee the full title would take up four lines, include six paratheses, a footnote or two, and is usually not as interesting as the poem. I sort of wish that people of the 'experimental' bent would think a third or fourth time about why they insist on having twelve picas of blank space between every third adverb. With very few exceptions, like Ray DiPalma, who takes his typography very seriously, I doubt if there is much being accomplished except being "individuals". By the way, if you do some fancy typographical work, take Ray's lead and be willing to send the work already layed-out in Quark Express or Pagemaker on disc. The best intro to typography that I've come across is Robert Bringhurst's The Elements of Typographical Style. For one thing, he's a poet. For another, he gives a solid history on the various fonts, reasons why one shouldn't double- space after every period, and a number of other details that have made my understanding of work like DiPalma's a great bit richer. Another little stunt poets do from time to time is send you prose where they use "weather" instead of "whether" and then insist it be spelled wrong as if this makes their book review derridean. Sometimes, knowing that it looks stupid, you agree to it and then find out that in the last paragraph third line down it should be spelled "whether." Um sorry, I'm laying out Rhizome this week and various little things like this come up so I'm slightly keyed up at the moment. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:49:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm very sympathetic to Dan's post. But I have to say that no small press publisher that I know of has ever deliberately let a typo get through. And what's more, it's terribly embarassing when one does get through. Every editor I know spends a lot of time proofing, and yet it's almost inevitable that one or two typos will end up in the mag (often in the goddam *title* or the contents page, or where you put something in boldface and in really big letters). In editing Witz, I have made almost every horrible typo you can imagine. And I'm really sorry for every one of them. I'm even more sorry that there will be more, as hard as I try to avoid them. (And I send out proofs to authors...still, some typos remain.) We're talking about one or two-person enterprises. We're talking about more work than you thought when you started (a lot more). It's a labor of love, and typos are part of it. Like that annoying habit that someone you love has...like snoring. mea culpa. (oh, and you can find the Witz archives, flaws and all, at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/witz --unless there's a typo in that URL) On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, main wrote: > i just received the latest issue of _mike & dale's younger poets_ & find > that the title of the piece i'd submitted to them was mis-printed > > should be "aerial photograph of an elephant graveyard"; > is "aerial photograph of an elephant". > > over the past five years of contributing writing to smaller magazines, i'd > guess that roughly 1/3 of my work has had at least one typographical error > (from missing punctuation to misspellings, problems with layout, etc.). > has this been anyone else's experience? > > i find it deplorable that so many small magazines are misprinting works. > where is the careful proof-reading? in order to cut costs and save > time, fewer and fewer small magazines send proofs to writers. but the real > cost is publishing work as it was _not_ intended to be read. too many small > magazine editors seem to have an assembly line/drive-thru mentality > regarding the product: just get another issue out, no matter the quality > and accuracy, no matter the process, without taking the time to carefully > proof the work. what they end up publishing is _not_ what was > submitted! once an editor tells me they're using my work, i assume > that it will appear (given, of course, the physical constraints of > the magazine) as i wrote it. is this too much to ask? > > poets are supposed to be attentive to language, but what good is it if > the publishers of poetry are inattentive? what's the point of even > publishing a text that's full of errors? if small magazine editors want > their magazines to be taken seriously as bringing forward the news, then > they need to get the facts straight and take more pride in their work: a > magazine's reputation is built not only on content but form. editors need > to keep in mind that they're the custodians between the writer and the > reader-- a role requiring pride and careful work. > > it may come to this: poets who care about accuracy more than publication > will no longer send work to magazines that do not provide proof or have a > reputation for eagle-eye editing. and readers who care to read what was > actually written will no longer subscribe to magazines that do a sloppy > job of editing. errors are human, and errors in language can be both > delightful and insightful, "wanderings" bearing the maker's handprint, the > beautiful flaw. but an error in the very title of a poem strikes me as > gross carelessness. > > in all fairness, there are many small magazine editors who, from my own > experiences, take editing as an art form requiring skill and attention > not unlike the skill and attention of composing a poem. jeff hansen's > _poetic briefs_, juliana spahr and jena osman's _chain_, lee chapman's > _first intensity_, and ed foster's _talisman_ come to mind. such accuracy > should be the norm, not the exception. all it takes is care-- to care > about the language, what you say and how you say it. is that too much to > ask? > > dan featherston > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:49:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: typos I've had less trouble with poets, & probably made more editing mistakes [sorry, Joe] than Standard, so I side more with Dan Featherston on this one. The basic problim as I see it [he heh] is burnout, and the only solution is more than one proofreader - somebody other than the editor(s). This may soubd nobvious but it's amazing what you don't see after reading a pile of ms. over & aver. & I've been a profishional proofloafer, too. Dan is right - we shd all srnd out proofs to the eithors. I'm going to try to do that from now on. [not to give anyboy the idea that Nedge is full of errors - oh no!]. Wearing the author hat I think typos in poetry are beyond the pail, terrabul. & they happen frequently (in my case anyway). I can tell you an even worserr story, however - a magazine that held a poem after accepting it for close to 2 years (publication delay), & then decided not to publish it - without ever informing me. This is ridiculous. Fortunately under the Sillimen New Sentencing Program they are doing 20-to-life in Verbal Max outside Fingercount, MC [Monte Cristo, Brazil] - a rela helahoel. - Henry "Eagleaye" Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:44:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: there's a question at the end of this Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" in fact, wouldn't the statement that there is a tendency to racism that's "in the blood" be a racist statement? unless one argues that all humanity has racism "always already" in the blood, which makes even less sense given the demonstrable historical variability of the concept of race -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:06:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: typos In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Wearing the author hat I think typos in poetry are beyond the pail, terrabul. >& they happen frequently (in my case anyway). I can tell you an even worserr >story, however - a magazine that held a poem after accepting it for close >to 2 years (publication delay), & then decided not to publish it - without >ever informing me. The technical term for typos beyond the pail would be "spillage?" An editor who has since gained some notoriety but will nonetheless remain nameless once asked me to review a book of poems. I thought the book a crime against humanity and said so, perhaps a bit more diplomatically. Turned out the poet was a friend of said editor, who accordingly refused to publish the review. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:13:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Carrying Cole to Colorado Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" eleven years ago, David Bromige was visiting in DC and the two of us took a stroll through the galleries of the East Wing -- came alongside a massive collage piece, "El Copperhead Grande" (Rauschenberg or Johns?) -- David caught sight of a small portion of newsprint down in one corner of the piece, in Spanish -- wondered out loud what it might be -- leaning over with my elementary Spanish and my eyes still young enough not to require specs -- I found that it was a newspaper report of the winning lottery number in Chile for October 22 -- am remembering this with great fondness this day when Pinochet's number, we would like to think, may be, finally, up ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:16:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: the neo-new sentence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and not long before Ron's book, I recall sitting in the Folger library's Globe theater mock-up for a poetry conference, at which Stanley Plumly, at considerable length, advanced his theory that contemporary poets were moving away from the image and towards organization of the poem around the sentence -- Heard very little of this in THOSE circles in intervening years,,, perhaps because they learned from Ron that that were right? bless us all, every one ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:17:35 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend of mine had written an Irish language textbook for teenagers and to be sure to be sure got a native speaker to set it. Unfortunately she wasn't a native speller and the title ended up with one of the more toothgrinding grammatical errors (nom. instead of gen. after a double prep.). He had to endure the comfort of all sorts of friends who rang him up to assure him that he hadn't dropped in their estimation despite his mistake. In another textbook he had a chapter on names and included a kind of grid with Murphy = O'Murchu etc. Then there was an exercise with photos of "well-known" "personalities" like Mike Murphy and so on and the poor student had to write the jaspers' names in Irish. The publishers thought that the photos were a bit tame and replaced them with ones of Severiano Ballesteros, Claude Van Damme and a host of international celebrities who had not featured in any way in the preparatory grid. and Henry, I think I've permanently damaged something due to a fit of giggling precipitated by your last post. cheers Randolph Healy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:32:40 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: coupla q's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recall discussing the then recently published FEAR OF FLYING with Alice Notley around 1972-4, when Alice explainedthat Jong was interested in sentences and paragraphs, whereas she was interested in words. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:35:14 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan-- I have _no_ sympathy for you what so ever. If you have read the magazines you send to, you would know what to expect. Apparently you didn't & rarely ever do, which is accounted for by the number of mistakes that have occurred to your texts as mentioned in your post. I haven't complained about a text bogie in 5 years. I am familiar with each journal I send to. I can think of no other reasonable explanation for your problem. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Another Herbsttag MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I don't remember this one mentioned last month, but for those collecting versions of Rilke's poem, here is Ron Padgett's adaption, which I just came across in Great Balls of Fire: "Autumn's Day" Rilke walks toward a dime. I saw. It was very great. But now His shadow is fast upon the sundials. How then can the winds remind The shadows it is late? 'Who has no home cannot build now,' Said Rilke to a grasshopper. Little grasshopper, You must waken, read, write long letters, and Wander restlessly when leaves are blown. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 02:57:02 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: typo hype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit as an editor: it is a sad thing to make a mistake iin printing someone's work youu (oops) value! But I agree with Standard: we are often poorly expected to fix mistakes writers make--and we are poor and overworked so much that the mere task is monumental of publishing a magazine. magazines often have no time for galleys/etc. We all apologize--I'm sure--but given the scope of the task--it's amazing we do this good a job! Todd Baron (ReMap) ps: books, on the other hand, are another issue. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:45:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: hypo type MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > > as an editor: > > We all apologize--I'm sure--but given the scope > of the task--it's amazing we do this good a job! > Not only that, it's amazing you (plural) continue to do it at all. I'm grateful to all those who, with whatever resources they have (and, notably, don't have), do this work. Of course, there's the solution offered by some truly small mags: simply photocopy the poem _as sent_ and print it. Re. the original errata post: it seems better to lose the graveyard than to lose the elephant -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree with me either, and time just kept on passing." (Henri Michaux) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:56:26 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: hypo type MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura E. Wright wrote: > > Todd Baron /*/ ReMap wrote: > > > > as an editor: > > > > We all apologize--I'm sure--but given the scope > > of the task--it's amazing we do this good a job! > > > > Not only that, it's amazing you (plural) continue to do it at all. > I'm grateful to all those who, with whatever resources they have (and, > notably, don't have), do this work. > > Of course, there's the solution offered by some truly small mags: > simply photocopy the poem _as sent_ and print it. > > Re. the original errata post: > > it seems better to lose the graveyard > than to lose the elephant > > -- > Laura Wright, Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute WONDERFUL idea--tho the beauty of originals is sometimes--er-- not so beatific! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:55:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: WF publications Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit APOLOGIES FOR CROSS POSTING On behalf of Writers Forum announcing the publication of "WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY in verbal and visual poetry" edited by Bob Cobbing and Lawrence Upton with a preface by Cobbing and introductions by Upton and Robert Sheppard; 156pp; ISBN 0 86162 750 4; £6.50 plus postage - no time to weigh it yet Also the latest 8 pamphlets in the Domestic Ambient Noise seriesm - p & p is for UK Cobbing, Bob & Upton, Lawrence; Speak to me; ISBN 0 86162 838 1; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Cobbing, Bob & Upton, Lawrence; Chance; ISBN 0 86162 840 3; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Cobbing, Bob & Upton, Lawrence; Please repeat; ISBN 0 86162 836 5; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Cobbing, Bob & Upton, Lawrence; Singing in noise; ISBN 0 86162 763 6; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Upton, Lawrence & Cobbing, Bob; On a mild gray day; ISBN 0 86162 837 3; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Upton, Lawrence & Cobbing, Bob; They died of an overdose of time; ISBN 0 86162 835 7; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Upton, Lawrence & Cobbing, Bob; Dance; ISBN 0 86162 841 1; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Upton, Lawrence & Cobbing, Bob; Compose yourself; ISBN 0 86162 839 X; Writers Forum, October 1998; £1.00 plus 50p p & p Direct orders to New River Project, 89a Petherton Road, London N5 2QT Sterling payments only --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:44:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: GAAA GAAA GAAA (stupid thing) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - GAAA GAAA GAAA Perhaps the hiatus or another name to be assigned the gap common in Ch'an /Zen writing, Heian aesthetics, Chuang Tzu - not that difference shouldn't be recognized, but that this gap, demonstrated by the wheels which never touch the ground (a geometric pleasure and leap), is a space elsewhere than the rationalized grid of analytic geometry. Where does the Web in a hyperlink? The address spaced one against another, contiguous, with in-between browser windows turned grey or holding patterns or slow revel- ations, but never a leap as such, the ah-ha syndrome or break from one to another. Never that moment of the eye. GAAA GAAA GAAA Or perhaps so, representations say of waka or koan or the liminality of renga: but these leaps which are beyond or elsewhere than comp.sci, even with fractal or chaotic mappings. Never that moment where I announce my death. GAAA GAAA GAAA What I'm getting at, I can never reach, those moments which are beyond the Net or extraneous or forgotten, outside the compass and encompassing. Or moments where rationality hangs just above the protocols, like fog cur- tains over violent wilderness, peaks and crags. Never any moment of the breath or orgasm or awakening. Never any moment of fully-awake. Moments of peering and dissecting. GAAA GAAA GAAA It's there on the tip of my tongue, the difference between the relative control and audience dispersion/accommodation present on the Net, and certain leaps in which the space and immateriality of the world are suddenly manifest in a bewildering manner! GAAA GAAA GAAA This tip, just beyond the tongue, is what lures me towards further text, coupled with the certain knowledge that every line dissolves into perfect sound. And then nothing. But I am still torn in two, one half remaining in utter silence, that occasion of an aesthetic which takes time in the midst of vertical or flat places, serrated or flooded plains, everything on the edge of the cup. GAAA GAAA GAAA In the meantime, there is this, the internals of the sphere, a privacy that is beyond encountering. GAAA GAAA GAAA One might consider the necessity of the Net, which does not exist here - nor its absence, whether it exists or not. The needs of the non-existent Net. Nor is it important if or if not the soul is or is not illusion. And this is of course, holding the course, not Ch'an, not Zen; it is only indicative of the quiet internals that form a legacy of survival. The moment of holding the course, moment of coarseness. GAAA GAAA GAAA The browser window stutters or there may be a message below, or an error message bringing the world to a halt; or a grey rectangle tending towards black, featureless, just for a moment. There may be the declaration of an image, or a coming-into-the-world once again, of a derailing-memory forced into uneasy fulfillment. It may say, JUST LIKE THE WORLD, STILL LOADING. It may say, JUST LIKE THE WORLD, CONGESTION ON-LINE. It may say, JUST LIKE THE WORLD, TRY AGAIN LATER. It may say, JUST LIKE THE WORLD, GAAA GAAA GAAA. GAAA GAAA GAAA I reread this, Nikuko says, and "there's no gap. It's bleak orientalism, there's nothing present but haiku factories, turned out peripherals. It's boy-toy stuff. You want an escape, you want that distance, that moment where an interior remains closed as such, where ratiocination has no place on earth. Literally. You're afraid of such. You still can't look yourself in the mirror but you're willing to be naked any time someone holds their breath! Your self-hatred fogs the mirror, breaks the jewel, places the sword in one hole, and out the other!! The tip gleams between your teeth. People are always injured in the flooded reality of things!!!" GAAA GAAA GAAA Oh challenge me, fair Jennifer, says Nikuko, as Jennifer approaches, her garments rent, her hair streaming in the storm which has kicked up. Every- thing dead flies by at furious pace. Jennifer-normal-Jennifer, riding Julu, dark Julu, her gaping maw open to a terrifying degree. Lightning illuminates the littered land; juniper and canyon pines bend bleak and ancient branches black against the whimpered moon. Stars make dim streaks as they fall down the tormented sky, smothered by thick cloud. There are roars everywhere, resonances from tombs and caves, caverns and dells, more resonances when mouths open, cackled song. WHOSE MOUTH IS OPEN TO A TERR- IFYING DEGREE? WHOSE MAW GAPES AGAINST THE BRITTLE LIGHTNING? GAAA GAAA GAAA Power lines are downed, new lines redrawn on face and rim of violent rock, sparks sputter in skeins of lugubrious energy struggling for a sign. Oh challenge me, Nikuko screams; there aren't signs any more, the ground's littered with strokes going nowhere, lightnings sintering flesh and bone, the dead and the dune-dead. I twist and turn on the sword. I can't scream. GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA GAAA __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:39:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: coupla q's/sentence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I came across the idea (I think) in Marjorie Perloff's _Poetry on and off the page, I have been seeing "page poetry" everywhere, off (_vide the new _Big Allis) as well as on the web. Is there a history to this and has anyone written on it? tom bell <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/Waysout.htm http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/petals/petals.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/start.htm http://home.talkcity.com/EaselSt/trbell/Blackwho.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Comments: To: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" In-Reply-To: <199810222116.WAA32306@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Small (independent) publications are, if I understand my own as prototypical, working generally in less-than-sturdy formats, inevitably limited budgets, and with the challenge of distributing/marketing to a tiny, often irrationally biased group of "individuals." Thus, one might at the very least uphold the sort of production standards of the larger, subsidized glossies. That is, there must be something vital, important, insurgent about the work represented. Why else add another little magazine to the glutted mix? We, as editors, all supposedly care deeply for what we do, and we do it thanklessly, oftentimes, that is while we're defining thanks as economic & cultural capital . . . The practicioners deserve at least the opportunity to request proofs. I recently discovered that a submission of my own was accepted for publication only when the publication party & announcement to this list had already taken place. I waited some time before my copy arrived, full of horrendous errors. I started publishing my own little magazine, with no expendable income anyhow, partly because I was seeing a lot of work that deserved the treatment [distribution, attractive presentation, simply...publication] other less pointed (and often moronic) authors were receiving. And I do all I can to provide it. Kenning -- where quality is job 1! Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: <362F6CCE.78601BD3@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Unless, David, Dan hadn't had the luxury of comparing the evidently perfect magazines against the original submissions. I think the problem is rather one of trust and / or cooperation. This as opposed to the competitive spirit I myself have sometimes found . . . and find deplorable. Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, David Baratier wrote: > Dan-- I have _no_ sympathy for you what so ever. If you have read the > magazines you send to, you would know what to expect. Apparently you > didn't & rarely ever do, which is accounted for by the number of > mistakes that have occurred to your texts as mentioned in your post. > > I haven't complained about a text bogie in 5 years. I am familiar with > each journal I send to. I can think of no other reasonable explanation > for your problem. > > Be well > > David Baratier > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:26:23 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Dan, it=27s a pisser. Just cross those who mangle your work from your list. Ralph Wessman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:58:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dan, I hope I didn't screw up the poem of yours I published recently. My method is to read the author's hard copy carefully looking for possible errors on their part, then to scan the writer's hard copy into a computer, run it through a spell checker, and then re-read it, comparing it to the original. Still, a comma will turn into a period, a space between words will turn into two spaces, etc. 1. Far and away the vast majority of errors are made by the poet, not the editor, and 2. Poets tend to expect the editor to take more care with the text than they themselves have taken. 3. Poets often design their poems for letter-size paper and then expect the same effects to occur on the almost invariably smaller pages of magazines. 4. Poems whose strength derives from, or are overly reliant on things like font and type size should be self-published if at all. 5. Poets who are highly innovative/transgressive in terms of punctuation and spelling shouldn't expect publishers to be editors. Penultimately, (and this is the really big one), editors die a thousand deaths when they make a mistake, even if that mistake is not catching a poet's error. Finally, a lot of the mistakes that are made are an unfortunate by-product of the enthusiasm on the part of small press operators without which most poems would never see the light of day at all. One can always insist on reviewing the proofs of ones Collected Works if and when it comes to that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:05:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re : errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not one to parade his grievances in public, but when it comes to typos and a small magazine which shall remain nameless, I think I have just cause for complaint. The prose poem that I sent them, an exercise in the new sentence, was called, when it left my hands, "Parity." Behold : PARTY Then things get even more interesting. Dully wiped surferly out. Appauled for his agrments. Padded on the rare end. Dual to the dearth in a barroom baral. Her servered from loanliness. He frequented his exployees. Put to work studing & being trained in prober manhours. Appeaching her forensidly, he laughed hurtidly, then guggled with derise. 'Not too embressing,' he drewled. He was gait alight. Socity was noting but hairs and founies. He intered this realm quitely, with diplomia. Vocationing in Vegas, washing excoctic densers. Except this avarice. It gets bitter. They grimmed as they pasted him on the seet. Rubbage. A fast residing airline. The sweet of his own bow. 'I shall see what can't be done.' Almost past marring, her truesew. Ampisously he stroked upawed. He was an archticist. None for his monitory reckonsense, his colonary skulls, his facal features, his prosuadive ways, parsels of speach. Dewrelic. Clutting. Spenting. Distoy. Dealth. His honorible dearth & dishonorrible intensions. 'Put me out of my missuary.' He immulated her, his sparing panter. Frusted, criped, endemptent. Tried a torch of vingar, waited as a roamer circulated. Femine. Marvellouse. Stuft. Perfact. Anbily sated? He sujjected another why out. Forst thought bets thought, anglozied. Cought speacking. Quit so. I guess they had Trimar in a jar at that editorial office. Well I won't be submitting to them again. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:04:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Re : errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David: Isn't there a built-in caveat to any magazine that calls itself "Which Shall Remain Nameless?" At 01:05 AM 10/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > I'm not one to parade his grievances in public, but when it comes >to typos and a small magazine which shall remain nameless, I think I have >just cause for complaint. The prose poem that I sent them, an exercise in >the new sentence, was called, when it left my hands, "Parity." Behold : > >PARTY > >Then things get even more interesting. Dully wiped surferly out. Appauled >for his agrments. Padded on the rare end. Dual to the dearth in a barroom >baral. Her servered from loanliness. He frequented his exployees. Put to >work studing & being trained in prober manhours. Appeaching her forensidly, >he laughed hurtidly, then guggled with derise. 'Not too embressing,' he >drewled. He was gait alight. Socity was noting but hairs and founies. He >intered this realm quitely, with diplomia. Vocationing in Vegas, washing >excoctic densers. Except this avarice. > >It gets bitter. They grimmed as they pasted him on the seet. Rubbage. A >fast residing airline. The sweet of his own bow. 'I shall see what can't be >done.' Almost past marring, her truesew. Ampisously he stroked upawed. He >was an archticist. None for his monitory reckonsense, his colonary skulls, >his facal features, his prosuadive ways, parsels of speach. Dewrelic. >Clutting. Spenting. Distoy. Dealth. His honorible dearth & dishonorrible >intensions. 'Put me out of my missuary.' He immulated her, his sparing >panter. Frusted, criped, endemptent. Tried a torch of vingar, waited as a >roamer circulated. Femine. Marvellouse. Stuft. Perfact. Anbily sated? He >sujjected another why out. Forst thought bets thought, anglozied. Cought >speacking. Quit so. > > > >I guess they had Trimar in a jar at that editorial office. Well I won't be >submitting to them again. David > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:19:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: errrrrr... ata? I have no sympathy for editors who have no sympathy for poets who have no sympathy for editors who have no sympathy for poets who have no sympathy. But's it's not that simple. It's simply not that simple simply to have sympathy for simple mistakes, especially since simple-minded editors simply show no sense of responsibility for the errati of their literati or their own literary errand. The end. - Eric Blarnes, the Superbly & Completely Self-Published Poet and Professor Emeritus, Linguini Studies, Left Overbie University or right to: Eric Blarnes ChelmedI'mSureford Stout-on-Oven Swillby Haunts. England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:37:07 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: Samizdat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to David for mentioning the magazine. Issue #1 contents are: Michael Barrett's sequence "Babylons" (first of two installments) Adam Zagajewski (2 poems) Piotr Parlej's essay "Zagajewski Between Romanticism and the Avant-Garde" Stephanie Strickland (2 poems) Ken Smit (poem) Goran Printz-Pahlson and Jesper Svenbro (poems translated from Swedish) David Kellogg's poem "Cartesian Procedure" Reginald Gibbons (prose poem) John Peck (poem) Ilya Kutik (poem translated from Russian) Kymberly Taylor (poem/music collage) Review of C.S. Giscome Review of Rosmarie Waldrop and Reginald Gibbons Issue #2 will have more Barrett, Michael Anania, Katherine Kaspar, reviews of Stephanie Strickland and Janet Holmes and Irish alternative poetry, & more... Three issue subscriptions to the broadsheet-format magazine are ten dollars. Free copies of issue #1 are available by request (get em while they last!) Bob Robert Archambeau Lake Forest College/Lund University (Sweden) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:40:09 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: address inquiry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone backchannel the email address of Sergei Ziavalov in Russia? A phone number would be even better... Bob Robert Archambeau Lake Forest College/Lund University (Sweden) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:32:39 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: there's a typo at the end of this Content-Type: text/plain So much for the Dan Featherston Tribute issue . . . And thanks to my other contributors and compadres for many backchannels of support... Aldon, I get what you mean by "demonstrable historical variability of the concept of race." Hoa also thinks that the unfortunate term, "blood" doesn't account for trans-cultural-hisorical productions of the concept of race. Other words I would offer are spirit and geist, but even those sound hollow in the _proof-is-truth_ materialism of social thinking. I'm only offering thoughts re: the passage and embodiment of racial experience and dialogue as I've witnessed it. I'm reading a book called The Genealogy of Demons: Anti-Semitism, Fascism, and the Myths of Ezra Pound. Do you or anyone else know this work? Casillo, the author, approaches Pound's anti-semitism with great depth, digging in to the mythic and psychic "structures" of Pound's personality as expressed in the Cantos. He addresses the perplexing and contradictory life and art of Ra by sifting through the mytholocial and spiritual (pagan, anti-old test/torah) elements that reveal the man's psychic jig-saw-like pieces. Not an answer to anything, but, an attempt to articulate demonic energy in our time... >in fact, wouldn't the statement that there is a tendency to racism that's >"in the blood" be a racist statement? unless one argues that all humanity >has racism "always already" in the blood, which makes even less sense given >the demonstrable historical variability of the concept of race -- > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Spicer's Lorca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Kent . . . others will probably reply to this one too, but the article you're thinking of is by Clayton Eshleman and it's called "The Lorca Working," first printed in "Boundary 2," Vol. VI, #2, fall, 1977. Really an intriguing article and quite complete. If you want me to send you a copy let me know. Kevin Killian <---terribly glad to hear the news that Lisa Robertson's book "Debbie:an Epic" has been nominated for Canada's Governor Generals Award in Poetry. Could this have happened in the US? I don't think so. Go Lisa go! Kevin Killian <--- crying over awful review in the "Vancouver Sun" which Donald Allen forwarded to me, review of "Poet Be Like God," a life of Jack Spicer which I wrote with Lew Ellingham, review which calls book "inept faggot gossip." Under cover of night I am sending ninjas to Canada, to homes and dwelling places of rival contestants for Governor Generals Award and also to "John Armstrong," reviewer for "Vancouver Sun." If you are on this list, "John Armstrong," be afraid. Be really afraid! Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:13 -0500 From: KENT JOHNSON Subject: Spicer's Lorca Dear Jonathan: I noticed your response to Gabriel Gudding on the Spicer line. Do you in fact know of anyone who has done a poem by poem study of _After Lorca_ to figure out where the "translations" are translations and where they are not? Or in those poems that are "minotaurs," which parts are which? I seem to recall seeing something about Robin Blaser having at least gone into this, but I'm not sure. Have you, by some chance, done this yourself? I've been working on and off on an essay on JS's _After Lorca_ and would be very interested if you or anyone would know something about this. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: cheap but good printers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a sort of tangent to the small press discussion, I was wondering if anyone knew of any printers located in the midwest. I remember this discussion took place before... _Fourteen Hills_ has been using McNaughton & Gunn for what is now the third issue, and they are absolutely wonderful. But because we are funded by the university, I have to get bids for every issue. I haven't found a printer yet that can even remotely compete with M&G--usually the others bid at a price twice as high, and it's getting to the point that very few printers in California will even give us a bid anymore. I think this is very interesting, that M&G is so cheap because they are in the midwest--this is the only thing I can conclude. Has anyone else found a good quality printer at a reasonable price? Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:20:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michel Delville Subject: POSTWAR AMERICAN POETRY / University of =?iso-8859-1?Q?Li=E8ge?= , Belgium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- CALL FOR PAPERS A two-day conference on POST-WAR AMERICAN POETRY will be held at the University of Li=E8ge, on March 3-4, 1999.=20 Participants include Maxine Chernoff and Paul Hoover. Abstracts / one-page proposals for papers on any aspect of post-war American poetry are invited. Possible topics might include, but are not limited to: - anthologies; canon formation - American poetry in an international context - American poetry and multiculturalism/multilingualism - the use, or nonuse, of traditional modes, genres, and subgenres - the politics of poetic form - poetry and the performing arts - American poetry and postmodernism - Language writing - American poetry and the mass media Please send abstracts and proposals, by January 15, 1999, to: Michel Delville & Christine Pagnoulle Universit=E9 de Li=E8ge D=E9partement d'anglais 3, Place Cockerill 4000 Li=E8ge (Belgium) Fax: +32 4 366 57 21 e-mail: mdelville@ulg.ac.be or cpagnoulle@ulg.ac.be ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --------------------------- Michel Delville English Department University of Li=E8ge 3 Place Cockerill 4000 Li=E8ge BELGIUM fax: ++ 32 4 366 57 21 e-mail: mdelville@ulg.ac.be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:59:16 -0400 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re : errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10/22 There is a roaring as poems going off canon. ERROR ("you f.u.c.k") replaced like [CENSORED] & what is become of our poems adrift on this ugh raggedy crap heathen scene and [cough, cough] goes the "poem." Lost is the "poem." Me a culprit, you[r] fuck ups shine over & t a k e the "poem," which ["you"] do not endure. The "poem" a bracelet for the wrist. Shiny, shiny editor. What E[D]R[I]R[T]OR does it [sex] come to [sex] & at last I paste my publicity photo against your face. 10/23 If a man [sic] were to die with the "poem" plunged in his [sic] vein he [sic] would not have died in vain. I ain't giving you head. & if the terrifying weakness of editors were not a specious argument of even weaker poets we'd all be tempted to give everyone head. & why not. ("gone tomorrow") What one prints: the unknown words written in the brain before they're fucked up before their fuck up there in some magazine. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:23:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Spicer's Lorca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" what is an "inept faggot" and why are they gossiping? I read the book and didn't see any ref. to any "inept faggots." Is this some Canadian thing? Kevin -- how have the reviews been generally? My own feeling was that it's among the few books about which I can actually say it was worth the wait -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Re: cheap but good printers Comments: To: ttheatre@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <3630B519.1DFA@sirius.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Have you tried Cushing-Malloy in Ann Arbor MI? They do many of the National Poetry Foundation books. Let me know if their estimate is much higher than what you get from McN&G! best, Sylvester At 9:55 AM -0700 10/23/98, Karen and Trevor wrote: >As a sort of tangent to the small press discussion, I was wondering if >anyone knew of any printers located in the midwest. >I remember this discussion took place before... >_Fourteen Hills_ has been using McNaughton & Gunn for what is now the >third issue, and they are absolutely wonderful. But because we are >funded by the university, I have to get bids for every issue. I haven't >found a printer yet that can even remotely compete with M&G--usually the >others bid at a price twice as high, and it's getting to the point that >very few printers in California will even give us a bid anymore. >I think this is very interesting, that M&G is so cheap because they are >in the midwest--this is the only thing I can conclude. Has anyone else >found a good quality printer at a reasonable price? > >Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:25:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Re: cheap but good printers Comments: To: Karen and Trevor In-Reply-To: <3630B519.1DFA@sirius.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Karen McKevitt wrote: > As a sort of tangent to the small press discussion, I was wondering if > anyone knew of any printers located in the midwest. > I remember this discussion took place before... > _Fourteen Hills_ has been using McNaughton & Gunn for what is now the > third issue, and they are absolutely wonderful. But because we are > funded by the university, I have to get bids for every issue. I haven't > found a printer yet that can even remotely compete with M&G--usually the > others bid at a price twice as high, and it's getting to the point that > very few printers in California will even give us a bid anymore. > I think this is very interesting, that M&G is so cheap because they are > in the midwest--this is the only thing I can conclude. Has anyone else > found a good quality printer at a reasonable price? > > Karen McKevitt > Karen: There are a number of short-run printers around Ann Arbor, apparently cheaper than other parts of the country because none are unionized. About twelve years back, when I was looking for a printer for the final issue of Chiaroscuro, I think I got bids from most of the following. And ended up going with McNaughton & Gunn. But you might try some of these: Thompson-Shore (734) 426-3939 Edwards Brothers (734) 769-1000 Bookcrafters (734) 475-9145 Braun-Brumfield (734) 662-3291 For others, for reference: McNaughton & Gunn (734) 429-5411 I'd be happy to give further details on any of these. (Telehone book open on my desk). All the best, John Latta ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: cheap but good printers Comments: cc: ttheatre@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <3630B519.1DFA@sirius.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" karen-- i've had good results working w/ Thomson-Shore (7300 W. Joy Rd., Dexter MI 48130; 734.426.3939, www.tshore.com). there are a number of others in the ann arbor area, dunno why there's such a concentration of printers there but praps that accounts fr th low rates... luigi burning press >As a sort of tangent to the small press discussion, I was wondering if >anyone knew of any printers located in the midwest. >I remember this discussion took place before... >_Fourteen Hills_ has been using McNaughton & Gunn for what is now the >third issue, and they are absolutely wonderful. But because we are >funded by the university, I have to get bids for every issue. I haven't >found a printer yet that can even remotely compete with M&G--usually the >others bid at a price twice as high, and it's getting to the point that >very few printers in California will even give us a bid anymore. >I think this is very interesting, that M&G is so cheap because they are >in the midwest--this is the only thing I can conclude. Has anyone else >found a good quality printer at a reasonable price? > >Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:58:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: cheap but good printers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I recommend Thompson-Shore. In my opinion, they're higher quality than McNaughton-Gunn and for my purposes better priced. I'm under the impression from talking to a few other editors that have used the two that TS has fewer mistakes. But I suspect that the best person to ask is Douglas Messerli. He seems to have used them all. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:57:54 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick-- Even the largest journals I send to and have appeared in I have read and know enough people who have appeared there recently so I know the process they went through. If I really want to appear somewhere, I have read the journal / mag and many friends have told me of their positive experience appearing in their pages so I know what to expect long before sending. In some cases I have purposely chosen to send to a mag where I knew the text would be mangled. Not to single him out but Ken Warren's mag has tons of errors and I still want to appear there. It's like this: A man walks down a path in winter and sees a poisonous snake on the ground. The snake is freezing to death and needs to be picked up in order to get warm and survive & finally the man does so upon promise of the snake not biting him. After a bit walking down the road the snake bites the man. As the man is dying he asks the snake why he did it. "You knew what I was when you picked me up. It is within my nature." If one sends to a mag / journal without having seen it first they are unaware of the nature of the beast which quite obviously is not the beast's fault. The only time a question of trust should come up is when it is a brand new magazine. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:28:58 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: coupla q's Content-Type: text/plain Ron, I don't understand this and wondered if possibly you could elaborate. >But there were obvious flaws with this equation, especially with >Olson's superimposition of Place on top of the whole, so that the >prospect of writing in this tradition began to appear to be a "fill >in the blank" completion of an already implicit literary geography >(as in "he breaks his lines just like someone from Ukiah"). Each >succeeding poem would thus be a less significant formal act. By "whole" do you mean the poem, langauge, the poet, the whole complex relation of the self to an extended social/historic fabric? I don't understand how Olson's articulation of the line and breath as he saw it led to a fill-in-the-blank poetics of regionalism. In addition to a poet's Geography (literary and physical) don't other things like mood, temperment and personality quirks fit into the process in ways that vary regional distinctions? Olson's writing really seems to express that, that personality as much as place drives the poem toward its greatest possibilities. I can understand shifting the focus from the line and the poem to the sentence and the paragraph. But I don't understand how geography was somehow the impetus for that. Or am I naive and misunderstanding something? Thanks, Dale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:43:20 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LIsa Birman Subject: BOMBAY GIN - call for submissions Content-Type: text/plain BOMBAY GIN, the annual literary magazine at The Jack Kerouac School of Diesembodied Poetics at The Naropa Institute, is currently accepting submissions for the 1999 25th Anniversary Commemorative Issue. To submit to Bombay Gin: Send 3-5 pages of poetry; 5-10 pages of fiction or prose (Mac Format, 12 point Palatino or Times); Art (slides, negatives or prints) with SASE to: Bombay Gin The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave. Boulder CO 80302 Deadline is December 1, 1998. To receive a sample copy of last year's Bombay Gin, send $5 (check or money order) to the above address. Current issues (1998) are available for $10. Excerpts from the 1998 issue may also be viewed at www.naropa.edu The 1999 edition of Bombay Gin is supported in part by the Colorado Council on the Arts, a state agency. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:50:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: coupla q's In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:28:58 PDT from On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:28:58 PDT Dale Smith said: >In addition to a >poet's Geography (literary and physical) don't other things like mood, >temperment and personality quirks fit into the process in ways that >vary regional distinctions? Olson's writing really seems to express >that, that personality as much as place drives the poem toward its >greatest possibilities. Hey, where have you been, Dale? Don't you realize that with the coming of Poshlosternism, mood, personality, geography, quirks - none of these things exist anymore! There's only WRITING, there's only WORDS, there's only the POEM-OBJECT-THINGUM that will liberate you with a cool ice gelato of surreal continental discombobulations! The Manner is the manor, the Artifact is the arty confect! Them things you mentioned - they just get way of ART as we can never know it today! - Jack Spandrift ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:21:02 -0700 Reply-To: minka@grin.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: megan minka lola camille roy Subject: Laura Moriarty and Aaron Shurin Reading in SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I have an announcement: New Langton Arts is presenting a reading by Laura Moriarty and Aaron Shurin. Details: October 24, 1998 8:00 PM $8.00 general, $6.00 students at New Langton Arts 1246 Folsom Street San Francisco, CA 94103 (415) 821-1237 Laura Moriarty's recent books are "Spicer's City" (Poetry New York), "Symmetry" (Avec Books), and "like roads" (Kelsey st Press), among others. Forthcoming is a short novel "Cunning" from Spuyten Duyvil. Winner of the 1983 Poetry Center Book award, Moriarty is currently the editor of a poetry and poetics Web site at socrates.berkeley.edu/~moriarty Aaron Shurin is the author of "Unbound: A Book of AIDS", "Into Distances", and "Narrativity", all published by Sun & Moon Press. Among his other books are "The Graces" (Four Seasons), "A's Dream" (O Books), and "Elsewhere" (Acts Books). He has been the recipient of both a Creative Writing Fellowship (from the NEA) and a Gerbode Poetry Award. Thanks! minka megan camille roy, etc. -- &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Go there: http://www.grin.net/~minka "everything that's said gets swallowed, and that isn't fatalism of the 19th century either." (L. Scalapino) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:45:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Spicer's "translations," and Chris Stroff. Kent--If you don't mind backchanneling me with a reminder, I'll try to track down an old Clayton Eshleman essay that was in Boundary 2 years ago where, if I remember rightly (which I may not), he addresses your question about Spicer's Lorca and translation. If folks are interested, I'll post the ref. to the list. Chris Stroffolino--Backchannel me, s'il vous plait--I've lost your e-ddress. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:42:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Trank Subject: Typos abound, especially on Fridays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ah well, we renamed our school, combining diesel and disembodied into one word. The official title is, as you all know: Jack Kerouac School of DISEMBODIED Poetics. Now that we have made the typos on this list, we will not have to make them in the magazine. Ta Ta - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:26:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: coupla q's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I addressed a similar question as Dale's yesterday to Ron, and as it may have reached him after he had set out to California, I repeat it now for the List at large. If anyone other than Ron had some reactions to this point it might be valuable as well . . . _______________________________________________________ Ron, thanks for this coherent answer to Maria's question -- which deals with the time I was discovering your work as well. May I ask you exactly what this means, though? "But there were obvious flaws with this equation, especially with Olson's superimposition of Place on top of the whole, so that the prospect of writing in this tradition began to appear to be a "fill in the blank" completion of an already implicit literary geography (as in "he breaks his lines just like someone from Ukiah"). Each succeeding poem would thus be a less significant formal act." Where exactly does he "superimpose Place on top of the whole"? In Projective Verse? Or in his work as a whole? If the latter, can one accurately juxtapose the two concerns, namely, Place and Breath Line? Isn't everyone's sense of breath a little different (contain more quantity or quality), so that conceivably no two so-called "projective verse" poems would ever look alike (if such ever existed)? No argument with his and WCW's general "jingoism" -- although I've always found value in knowing one's own history, it's the exclusivity that's the problem there -- but would you also then, along with Marjorie, claim that the earlier Williams in "Spring and All" is much superior to the later (perhaps stroke-induced) three-step lines and thus, for example, "Asphodel"? Joe _____________________________________________________________________ Ron, I don't understand this and wondered if possibly you could elaborate. >But there were obvious flaws with this equation, especially with >Olson's superimposition of Place on top of the whole, so that the >prospect of writing in this tradition began to appear to be a "fill >in the blank" completion of an already implicit literary geography >(as in "he breaks his lines just like someone from Ukiah"). Each >succeeding poem would thus be a less significant formal act. By "whole" do you mean the poem, langauge, the poet, the whole complex relation of the self to an extended social/historic fabric? I don't understand how Olson's articulation of the line and breath as he saw it led to a fill-in-the-blank poetics of regionalism. In addition to a poet's Geography (literary and physical) don't other things like mood, temperment and personality quirks fit into the process in ways that vary regional distinctions? Olson's writing really seems to express that, that personality as much as place drives the poem toward its greatest possibilities. I can understand shifting the focus from the line and the poem to the sentence and the paragraph. But I don't understand how geography was somehow the impetus for that. Or am I naive and misunderstanding something? Thanks, Dale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:47:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: Typos abound, especially on Fridays Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When I was attending, we heard rumors from C.U. that it had been renamed the "Jack Kerouac School of DISEMBOWELED Poetics"... --trace-- On Friday/23.October.1998 1.42.31pm, Lisa Trank wrote: > > Ah well, we renamed our school, combining diesel and disembodied into one word. > The official title is, as you all know: > > Jack Kerouac School of DISEMBODIED Poetics. > > Now that we have made the typos on this list, we will not have to make them > in the magazine. > > > Ta Ta - > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Typos abound, especially on Fridays In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" or maybe the crackerjack jewel for these umbrella'd polemics At 02:47 PM 10/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >When I was attending, we heard rumors from C.U. that it had been renamed >the "Jack Kerouac School of DISEMBOWELED Poetics"... > >--trace-- > >On Friday/23.October.1998 1.42.31pm, Lisa Trank wrote: >> >> Ah well, we renamed our school, combining diesel and disembodied into >one word. >> The official title is, as you all know: >> >> Jack Kerouac School of DISEMBODIED Poetics. >> >> Now that we have made the typos on this list, we will not have to make them >> in the magazine. >> >> >> Ta Ta - >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: The House that Jack Built MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Kevin and Dear Alan: Thank you for offering to track down the Eshleman essay. In fact, about ten minutes after I sent the query, the college librarian called to tell me that Peter Gizzi's _The House that Jack Built_ had just arrived. Talk about spooks! The bibliography there has the citation for CE's article along with a number of other essays on After Lorca that I didn't know about. By the way, the bibliography also mentions a wonderful pamphlet written a few years ago by Ed Foster, entitled simply _Jack Spicer_. It's the first citation I've seen of this furtive little gem (wondering why it wasn't listed in _Poet be Like God_?) and some of you may want to track it down. It's published by Boise State, of all places. Spicer fan that I am, I've been reading Gizzi's book since yesterday, and it is fascinating. The transcripts of Spicer doing genius talk and doing so off the top of his head make one feel like the top of one's head is coming off. And Gizzi's long afterword is simply tour de force. A great book, and now all of a sudden we have two big magnificent books on Spicer. Hip Hip Hurrah for Wesleyan, even if they first accepted Yasusada and then rejected him. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:15:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: The House that Jack Built Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/23/98 6:09:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kjohnson@HIGHLAND.CC.IL.US writes: << and now all of a sudden we have two big magnificent books on Spicer. Hip Hip Hurrah for Wesleyan, even if they first accepted Yasusada and then rejected him. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:20:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: <36308B60.12AE9A0F@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wanted to clarify, if I must. As per David's strange post which assumes every one in the poetry game is a beast, or as opposed to David's parabole, I will just say (metonymically speaking) two things. The issue, as I see it, is really rather petty and childish at the level of Dan & David's posts. Not that they are not legitimate concerns, or that the posts themselves were childish, but the issue is larger, essentially. Any avant-garde requires some sense of trust and cooperation, period. The issue is not Mike & Dale's Younger Poets. Not at all. In fact my previous comments (metaphorically speaking) come out on the side of the editors, no? Was afraid no one was able to make the [obvious?] miniscule leap from the particular to the general. Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:32:55 -0700 Reply-To: "W. Freind" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "W. Freind" Subject: Yasusada/Weinberger In-Reply-To: <41783173E58@student.highland.cc.il.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anybody know when Eliot Weinberger's piece on Yasusada ran in the Village Voice? I had an e-version, but lost it when I switched hosts. B/C, please. Bill Freind ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:17:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, the time has come for proofreaders to get their due. I worked for FOUR YEARS as a legal proofreader, day in, day out, working full-time while doing that god-forsaken MFA. I've also worked as a copy editor, editor, etc., and guess what folks? Proofreading is a SKILL. It takes a helluva lot of work, energy, and attention. Being a good editor doesn't mean you're also a good proofreader. Being a good writer doesn't mean you're also a good proofreader. But we ALL miss errors ALL the time. Moral of the story: get someone, and then someone else, to read behind you. And every time you see those squeeky-clean small mags, know someone sweated blood and then some to get it right. Ironically, in the publishing world, these are the people who are paid the least. Typical. Thanks to all you editors out there doin' your deed. Keep it up kids. p.s. Please direct any comments as to proofreading errors in this post to my current boss whereupon I shall receive proper chastisement. Thanks, Kathy Lou ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I edit & proofread technical materials, and can attest to the fact that no matter how hard you work, there's always *something* amiss, even if only an extra spacing or a missing period. And until you rev the manual, you always remember every flaw & its location. And after the revision, of course, there are new & ever more horrifying errors. Sure, it is awful, seeing a bit fat typo in the middle of your poem, but in the grand scheme, isn't the actual underpaid (if at all), sore-eyed, low-blood-sugar-suffering-before-lunch-and-the first-of-the-month's-coming-and-rent-due, etc.etc., person trying to do right by your work more deserving of our compassion than any great American poem??? Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > Ah, the time has come for proofreaders to get their due. I worked for > FOUR YEARS as a legal proofreader, day in, day out, working full-time > while doing that god-forsaken MFA. I've also worked as a copy editor, > editor, etc., and guess what folks? Proofreading is a SKILL. It takes a > helluva lot of work, energy, and attention. Being a good editor doesn't > mean you're also a good proofreader. Being a good writer doesn't mean > you're also a good proofreader. But we ALL miss errors ALL the time. > Moral of the story: get someone, and then someone else, to read behind > you. And every time you see those squeeky-clean small mags, know someone > sweated blood and then some to get it right. Ironically, in the > publishing world, these are the people who are paid the least. Typical. > > Thanks to all you editors out there doin' your deed. Keep it up kids. > > p.s. Please direct any comments as to proofreading errors in this post > to my current boss whereupon I shall receive proper chastisement. > > Thanks, > Kathy Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 03:08:21 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a bit parabolic in my meanderings, I thought a known blues example involving a snake would lend a certain pitch which has apparently been lost. I am assuming the following: 1. People with previously said complaints don't read the magazines they send to. If they were familiar with them they would know what the magazines entail. I have no problem with M&D, just with a contributor griping about it. Mike & Dale & Hoa went through the trouble to put together an issue; that proves merit, intent and dedication to the art. The act of someone writing something and sending it means nothing. It is a self serving act which anyone can do. Any mailbox can attest to that. Submitting means less than nothing if the author is not respecting the space they send work into. If the error is that big a deal, there is only one solution I know: start a magazine. I started a journal five years ago because I was disgusted with the fact that there were few worth reading. 2. I fail to see how proofing problems debilitate the notion of avant-garde. ^^the issue is larger, essentially. Any avant-garde requires some sense of trust and ^^cooperation, period. 3. Upholding the notion of avant-garde is petty in and of itself. Unless there is some individual gain or livelihood which depends upon upholding the "avant-garde" why would one forward this idea? Let alone conflegrate this issue as if there is an importance in specificity. If I substitute: Any magazine requires some sense of trust and cooperation, period, that statement appears too obvious to be what we are supposed to head for. So what is the larger issue? I trust certain folks based upon the work they have done & they do the same. I have faith they will perform comparable work in the near future & so on. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 03:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: poetics theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Consent, s/ms' World, says In Terry Winograd and Fernando Flores, Understanding Computers and Cogni- nition, the authors, playing off Maturana's "Biology of Language," write: "Language, as a consensual domain, is a patterning of 'mutual orienting behavior,' not a collection of mechanisms in a 'language user' or a 'sem- antic' coupling between linguistic behavior and non-linguistic perturba- tions experienced by the organisms. [P] Maturana points out that language is connotative and not denotative, and that its function is to orient the orientee within his or her cognitive domain, and not to point to indepen- dent entities." Thus we can speak of Umwelt, which connects with the mic- roworlds developed early on by Winograd. The word "consensual" is employed by Maturana, of course, but there are issues, right from the start of pol- itical economy and idiolectical defense mechanisms: "I refuse to be under- stood," said Julu, while Jennifer, thinking the same, refused to speak at all. The positing of mutual orientation, which Maturana has been stressing for decades, problematizes the truth-functional aspects of language, while salvaging performatives for the processes of orientation. One might also see the orientations among actants, which may be virtual or real or virtu- al-real, depending on one's ontology, among other things/emissions. One might also bring a psychologized Bourbaki into play, considering such orientations the result of partial mappings among mother-structures which constitute fuzzy domains of fuzzy behaviors. Here is a Maturana quote from the book: "When two more more organisms interact recursively as structurally plastic systems, ... the result is mutual ontogenic structural coupling.... For an observer, the domain of interactions specified through such ontogenic structural coupling appears as a network of sequences of mutually triggering interlocked conducts.... The various conducts or behaviors involved are both arbitrary and con- textual. The behaviors are arbitrary because they can have any form as long as they operate as triggering perturbations in the interactions; they are contextual because their participation in the interlocked interactions of the domain is defined only with respect to the interactions that con- stitute the domain.... I shall call the domain of interlocked conducts... a _consensual domain._" Julu is turned out by mother-structure Nikuko in a rite that involves consent and consensual construction of a world, or phenomenological hor- izon; the stage is the sememe, offered, proffered, controlled. Julu is always already within the theatrical scene, much as Brenda Laurel speaks of theater in relation to human-computer interactions, and Jennifer might speak of, in relation to Julu and Alan, Alan and Nikuko, of sado-maso- chisms. These s/ms are part-objects, relays, micro-contracts among parti- cipants, willing or not; they involve the impetus of one or the other or both to remain within the game, which is always a game since it is the rule-giving or rule-structuring of the real, in dialectic. Think of the s/ms as lightnings across the sememe, _fissurings_ which pass as _inscrip- tions,_ - in other words, divisions of same/same passing as epistemologi- cal operations of classification: _x_ and _not x_ - or, more to the point: Now! and Not now! What is marked is time, the impetus/impulse/inertia of _remaining in the game,_ of language and consent: in other words, The Game of Remaining in the World. The game involves consent. The game involves desire and s/ms. The game is always partial, always close to breakdown, rupture, fissuring, splits and splays which require further-culture to heal. There's no truth to the game; there are performatives. Every statement is performative, and every performative, a statement. Everything _construes._ The game is all the truth there is, and for further truth, there are events, defined (as I've pointed out elsewhere) as the union of attributes filtered by k-ply intersections of descriptions. (For example, one has 20 descriptions of an event, with a total of 8 attributes; let k = 3, then look for those attributes mentioned in at least 3 descriptions; take the union of these attributes as a best-fit description of the event.) Attri- bution becomes a primary focus - both for the constitution of meaning, and the development of the appearance of autonomy vis-a-vis superstructural symbolic domains: the real-virtual, or the virtual-real, take your pick. This is not to say that there is no asymbolic; in fact, consensuality skirts the asymbolic and asymbolia, and may as well (best fit) be founded on the same. Only that, when one moves into the realm of the virtual, one is also confronted by issues of constitution, languaging, and protocols; consensuality becomes charged and operative and, to the extent that it is synonymous with handshaking, the only game in town. So we might go in circles here, says Julu. As long as you are chained to me, replies Jennifer, new at the game, but shaved and ready as the perfect mirror. (The pain of the world, says Jennifer? There's no game there; it enters elsewhere, but every confrontation with death is private, an idiolect of murmurs, silences, of mother-structures _with no sense at all._ She purred [reminding one, said Alan, that wounded cats may purr as well, cats' bell tolling in the distance. And the bell? An s/m. And the purr? an s/m too, as every thing, non-thing, as in nothing, word to the mother "as well."].) __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 02:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re : errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wonder when the phrase "little magazine" became "small ditto"? But I do not write tonight primarily to raise that question. I write to register incredulity that I am being told I should tolerate typos because editors mean well. Next, we shall be advised to _enjoy_ our typos! Well, on the heels of yesterday's botched job, just look at what I received today, and imagine my feelings. . . this is the last time I shall trouble the List with my bad luck in this respect. It's too exasperating. This little poem was called "Crystal Rock Shop" when it left my hands : CLYTAS SOCK HOP Two cystals danegeld from here ares. Her lipstucks were blod. He was gait alight. Noting out of pace, scathing his sweatheat's mane in the already defacted tunk. She drank heavely, bluew. Surfered with minstrel tramps and dislikes of her. Tow moanratic Spanrods, senderading bnaith blagonies. They dindont relish that the thames had clanged. How could do joustice to thir bindless? Not this werter, hwom never gridated collage. I always seek the lesson to be drawn. In such cases, maybe we need recall John Lennon's phrase, "Life is what happens while we are making a plan." Everyone tries the best they know how. We were living in the forest canopy just a short while ago. Many b-c requests to name the magazine that travestied last night's posted poem, I shall ignore. And again tonight. But the editor in this instance is a man named Gorbwine. David. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 07:28:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Spicer, Foster, Notley, Mac Adams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kent Johnson writes: >By the way, the bibliography [of "The House That Jack Built"] also mentions a wonderful pamphlet written a few years ago by Ed Foster, entitled simply _Jack Spicer_. It's the first citation I've seen of this furtive little gem (wondering why it wasn't listed in _Poet be Like God_?) and some of you may want to track it down. It's published by Boise State, of all places. Hi, it's Kevin Killian. Edward Halsey Foster's little hand book in the Boise State "Western Writers Series" (1991) really is a terrific one, though if I remember correctly when it came out Ed felt rather bitter about the fact that his editors had summarily cut out about a third of his text, which I have bugged him to show me, but he has strong opinions about or superstitions against revealing his unpublished work. Will I sound like a nit picker if I aver that this pamphlet is indeed cited in "Poet Be Like God," at least on page 381? We have had some extraordinary poetic events lately here in San Francisco. The reading Alice Notley gave on Thursday for Small Press Traffic drew a huge audience, so that we had to keep adding more and more rows of chairs in front, and still more, so she was reduced to standing in one precise place, while people sat on either side and even behind her and the microphone, the stage looked like the end of "Carousel" where the graduates sing "You'll Never Walk Alone." Notley responded in kind by giving an amazing reading of parts of "Mysteries of Small Houses," then moved on to the noir pulp newsreader "novel," DISOBEDIENCE, and then scared everyone silly with the new "Byzantine" material, channeling voices a la Hannah Weiner or Tina Darragh and provoking a tremendously felt ovation. Some stood up, clapping, cheering, wiping tears from eyes, hollering hoarsely, as though Maria Callas had just left the stage. Last night, Friday, the Poetics Program at New College brought Lewis Mac Adams here for a reading to launch his new book "The River" (Blue Wind Press). Mac Adams explained that he had been out of the circuit for many years (15?), had not published anything, had been devoting all his time to environmental causes, and had been coaxed back in to publishing and reading by Michael Price, Kevin Opstedal and Dale Smith who, between them (among them?) had returned him to writing. "The River" is a very fine book (and only six dollars) and my hat is off to Mac Adams for a grand return and to Mike, Kevin and Dale for doing a grand and honorable thing in provoking, assisting and facilitating this rebirth. The old "Bolinas" crowd was there in full force but I didn't see to many younger people, perhaps because the name "Lewis Mac Adams" has been nearly forgotten thanks to some principle of silence that Ron Silliman has no doubt written up wisely. Anyhow after these two last evenings of great emotion I look forward to tonight's Shurin/Moriarty event to complete this hat trick. Don't talk to me on Sunday, I'll be like this--drained out rag . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 13:15:03 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: beats in Charlottesville MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poetics people within range of Charlottesville, VA may be interested in the following events, which are part of the Virginia Film Festival (this year's theme: "Cool"). [Sorry for the low-res formatting; see http://www.virginia.edu/~vafilm/1998/releases/rel_beat.html for the original version, and http://www.virginia.edu/~vafilm/ for general information about the film festival (including how to order tickets, etc.)] Matt -- Beat Events=20 Glory Days: The Beat Generation Photographs of Fred W. McDarrah Exhibition: October 2 - December 23 Bayly Art Museum, University of Virginia Picture editor of the Village Voice for 35 years, Fred W. McDarrah produced a photographic chronicle of the Beats. Many of McDarrah's evocative photographs -- reflecting the "glory days" of poetry readings, jazz, cafe life, parties, performances and the ordinary life of extraordinary Americans -- will be on display.=20 Panel Discussion and Gallery Talks=20 The Beat Period: What Was Happening, What It Meant, and How It Significantly Related to American Artistic Tradition, Far Eastern Art and Thought, and European Phenomenology and Existentialism Thursday, October 22, 5:30 p.m., Campbell Hall 153, adjacent to the Museum Lecture by Neil Chassman, a member of the New York poetry scene in the mid-1960s and curator of the ground-breaking exhibition Poets of the Cities: New York and San Francisco, 1950-65.=20 The Art of Hans Hofmann Friday, October 30, noon, Bayly Art Museum Ken Jacobs, a former student of Hofmann and a featured artist in this year's Virginia Film Festival, will discuss Hofmann's art and influence=20 The Art of Spontaneity Panel Saturday, October 31, 1:00 p.m., Campbell Hall 158 Exploring the links across jazz improvisation, Beat poetry, underground film, Zen Buddhism, and Abstract Expressionism, with David Amram, Ken Jacobs, Fred and Gloria McDarrah, Diane di Prima, and Ed Sanders, moderated by Daniel Belgrad, associate professor at the University of South Florida and author of The Culture of Spontaneity.=20 First Sundays Gallery Talk Sunday, November 1, 2:00 p.m., Bayly Art Museum Fred W. and Gloria McDarrah will conduct a gallery tour of the exhibition.=20 Film Screenings and Performance Events=20 A Beat Generation Reunion Saturday, October 31, 7:00 p.m., Culbreth Theatre=20 $15/$10 students Live poetry and jazz with David Amram, Diane di Prima, and Ed Sanders, plus a special screening of Robert Frank and Alfred Leslie's Pull My Daisy!=20 The Beat Cinema of Ken Jacobs 1) Jack Smith Filmed by Ken Jacobs: Saturday, October 31, 11:00am, Campbell Hall 158 2) Nervous System Performance: Two Wrenching Departures: Sunday, November 1, 1:00 p.m., Vinegar Hill Theatre, $6/$5 advance ($7 during Festival) On Saturday, see Ken Jacobs' classic underground films featuring the legendary performance artist Jack Smith, including Blonde Cobra and Little Stabs at Happiness, and, on Sunday, his live performance on the two-projector "Nervous System" =AD a farewell to his late friends Jack Smith and Bob Fleischner.=20 Beat Cinema and Beyond (All screenings at Vinegar Hill Theatre) The Chelsea Girls (Andy Warhol): Thursday, Oct. 29, 7:00pm The Connection (Shirley Clarke) with producer Lewis Allen: Friday, Oct. 30, 4:00pm Fuses and Other Films with Carolee Schneemann and B. Ruby Rich: Friday, Oct. 30, 7:00pm Shadows (John Cassavetes) and The End (Christopher MacLaine): Saturday, Oct. 30, 7:00pm Me and My Brother (Robert Frank) with speaker Gordon Ball: Sunday, Nov. 1, 10:00am=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 13:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Tony Lopez Reading in New York City Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tony Lopez will be reading Monday, October 26, at 6:30 at The New School for Social Research, 66 West 12th Street, 5th floor. Free -- open to all. The reading is highly recommended -- his work is extraordinary, as recent postings have attested. This is the last swing (New York) on a rare U.S. tour. Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm of course very careful with proofreading (& TYPING the work if I don't get a disk from a writer), but where do you propose I find someone I don't have to pay to proofread as well? Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:58:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: New poetry journal (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Announcing a new poetry journal from Canada-- _The Gig_. _The Gig_ is devoted to new work from the U.S., Canada & the U.K., with an especial slant towards the latter. The first issue will be available in November, and features poetry by Deanna Ferguson, Alan Halsey, Lisa Jarnot, Trevor Joyce, Peter Riley, Maurice Scully, Pete Smith and John Wilkinson; plus Wilkinson on John Wieners and schizophrenia, and reviews by Pete Smith and myself. Subscriptions: $6.00 (Canadian) for a single issue; $15.00 Cdn for a subscription (3 issues); $10 an issue for institutional copies. Post is included in the above prices for within Canada; for the U.S., add $0.50 Cdn for each issue; for the U.K., add $1.00 for each issue. All payments must be in Canadian currency. Cheques and money orders must be made out to "Nate Dorward". Write to: Nate Dorward, 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada. (Email: ndorward@sprint.ca) _The Gig_ is also available from Peter Riley, at 27 Sturton St., Cambridge, CB1 2QG. (Fax: 01223 576422; email: priley@dircon.co.uk). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:05:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: tony lopez in nyc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me second Susan Wheeler's recommendation of Tony Lopez' poetry. Charles Alexander has already posted us re the Tucson/POG reading of last week, and a welcome posting it was, intelligently opening the work to further questions and affirmations. I'd simply add, as my twobitsworth, that this is the poetry I'd been waiting for, a writing that is politicized throughout, but never denunciatory or haranguing, that integrates its many elements into a muscular rippling flow like a cross between Alph the sacred river and the Metropolitan Line. An intense intellectual pleasure (if "A Tear is an Intellectual Thing") to attend. At Sonoma State, the poet read to an audience of some 30-35, many of them students, and during the lengthy Q/A period after the reading, he showed both firmness and kindness in fielding questions that sometimes came awkwardly out of the confusion we are apt to feel when confronted with the new. It gives me much pleasure to contemplate this fine poet being introduced by another--Susan Wheeler's _Smokes_ is among my favorite books of 98--and I urge anyone within reach to turn out for this one. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:33:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re : Carrying Cole to Colorado Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since my friend Aldon Nielsen's header for this post is one of the more ingenious but also to some listmembers I would suppose, puzzling, I take it upon myself to explain (since its the weekend and Aldon may be away from his computer; and since I have been b-c'd with such a request) : Cole Swensen of U Denver shares Oct 22 as a birthday with both Aldon and myself. (You may recall Aldon's post is a meditation upon art, memory, Pinochet and Oct 22). David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:02:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit One way to do it is to cook dinner for about five of your most literate friends. Divide the manuscript into fifths, have everyone read through with red pen and pass their section on. Then don't drink too much wine because in the morning you have to go through and check your proofreaders proofreading. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:36:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: re : errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from David Bromige: >They dindont relish that >the thames had clanged. >How could do joustice >to thir bindless? > > Not this werter, > hwom never gridated collage. > >I always seek the lesson to be drawn. In such cases, maybe we need recall >John Lennon's phrase, "Life is what happens while we are making a plan." And as long as John Lennon has come up, I must say both of these mangled poems you've posted have reminded me dead on the money of John Lennon's old volume . Was that a formative book for anyone else out there? Wishing you clean type and ears -- Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:53:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: re : errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Wheeler wrote: > And as long as John Lennon has come up, I must say both of these mangled > poems you've posted have reminded me dead on the money of John Lennon's old > volume . Was that a formative book for anyone else out there? You might well arsk! About as formative as anything else in those days when we proceeded by the light of our faithful dog Cragesmure-- "Puffing and globbering they drugged theyselves rampling or dancing with wild abdomen, stubbing in wild postumes amongst themselves . . ." Speaking of which, we have two votes for the existence of the Dom and one for the Balloon Farm, although no rhyme or reason for either. But Alta Vista turned up a Velvets / Balloon Farm ad : http://member.aol.com/olandem2/perf6566.html "October 1966, Balloon Farm (The Dom), NYC Exploding Plastic Inevitable" So I guess confusion reigns supreme, holding her sceptre and orb, Rachel "It were a small village, Squirmly on the Slug, and vile ruperts spread fat and thick among the inhabidads what libed there . . ." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:07:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: LIPSTICK ELEVEN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Because you're feeling pretty. Because you've dreamt of starring in Kevin Killian's next play. Because you're worth it. It's Lipstick Eleven, an annual multi-genre journal of experimental writing! Announcing: Lipstick Eleven No. 1 featuring work by Carla HARRYMAN, Robert GLUCK, Jocelyn SAIDENBERG, Norma COLE, Truong TRAN, Kevin KILLIAN, Robin TREMBLAY-MCGAW, Kathy Lou SCHULTZ, Dodie BELLAMY, Catalina CARIAGA, Wayne SMITH, Brian STRANG, Mike AMNASAN, Rodrigo TOSCANO, Jim BRASHEAR, Roxane MARINI, and Camille ROY. Lipstick Eleven is 8 1/2 by 11". Perfect bound. Offset printed. 110 pages. Featuring special celebrity cover. Get yours now in a special for listafarians, direct from the editors, with postage and handling free--yes free. Send $8.00 to: Kathy Lou Schultz 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 We will be reading for Lipstick Eleven No. 2. until January 15, 1999. No e-mail submissions please. Send work (any genre) to the address above. Editors for L11 No. 1 were Jim Brashear, Catalina Cariaga, Roxine Marini, and Kathy Lou Schultz. Editors for No. 2 are Jim Brashear, Kathy Lou Schultz, and Robin Tremblay-McGaw. Pucker up! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: WANTED:server space for cat-themed press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE BESOKIND AS TO HELP! Attempting to update my SuNy-Buf website dedicated to Meow PRess, I found that I had exceeded my allotted server space. The end of it all is that Meow Press must move again, this time to a new home in cyberspace. Because I am wholly dissatisfied with Earthlink, and may abandon this ISP for a local outfit, I am wary of uploading Meow press there. Does anyone out there have any suggestions? What about Geocities? Is Meow Press commercial, therefore ineligible, or does the fact that the printer is in my kitchen release me from the glandular gist of the corporate ghost? I'd appreciate any experiences anyone can relate to me and any wisdom that can be offered. Back-channelling is the challenge... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: WANTED:server space for cat-themed press In-Reply-To: <363270F1.7004@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Why are you worrying about this tonight? Why aren't you fretting about your reading? At 07:29 PM 10/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >PLEASE BESOKIND AS TO HELP! >Attempting to update my SuNy-Buf website dedicated to Meow PRess, I >found that I had exceeded my allotted server space. The end of it all is >that Meow Press must move again, this time to a new home in cyberspace. > >Because I am wholly dissatisfied with Earthlink, and may abandon this >ISP for a local outfit, I am wary of uploading Meow press there. Does >anyone out there have any suggestions? > >What about Geocities? Is Meow Press commercial, therefore ineligible, >or does the fact that the printer is in my kitchen release me from the >glandular gist of the corporate ghost? > >I'd appreciate any experiences anyone can relate to me and any wisdom >that can be offered. > >Back-channelling is the challenge... > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 00:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: Spicer's Lorca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The issue of Boundary devoted to Spicer (from mid/late 70's?) has an essay by Clayton Eshelman that seperates the translations, imitations & spicers own joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:20:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: The House that Jack Built MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kent--Is this the same Kent I used to drink coffee with at St. Michael's Waiting Room? If so, give me a holler at ahadada@gol.com I've been hearing some good stuff on all sides about your work. Jesse Glass -----Original Message----- From: KENT JOHNSON To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 2:08 PM Subject: The House that Jack Built Dear Kevin and Dear Alan: Thank you for offering to track down the Eshleman essay. In fact, about ten minutes after I sent the query, the college librarian called to tell me that Peter Gizzi's _The House that Jack Built_ had just arrived. Talk about spooks! The bibliography there has the citation for CE's article along with a number of other essays on After Lorca that I didn't know about. By the way, the bibliography also mentions a wonderful pamphlet written a few years ago by Ed Foster, entitled simply _Jack Spicer_. It's the first citation I've seen of this furtive little gem (wondering why it wasn't listed in _Poet be Like God_?) and some of you may want to track it down. It's published by Boise State, of all places. Spicer fan that I am, I've been reading Gizzi's book since yesterday, and it is fascinating. The transcripts of Spicer doing genius talk and doing so off the top of his head make one feel like the top of one's head is coming off. And Gizzi's long afterword is simply tour de force. A great book, and now all of a sudden we have two big magnificent books on Spicer. Hip Hip Hurrah for Wesleyan, even if they first accepted Yasusada and then rejected him. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:53:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings from Jesse Glass! Remember me? ahadada@gol.com tell me aht you're up to. -----Original Message----- From: Dean Taciuch To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 8:05 AM Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism >Hilton Obenzinger brought up the issue of how _Huck Finn_ is taught in High >Schools, an issue which was brought to light for me last year when _Huck >Finn_ was the University's "Text and Community" selection. "T and C" is an >program here at George Mason in which a single work is chosen to be >assigned in several different classes, along with presentations at various >University venues dealing with the issues in the work. One of the >questions I asked my classes about _Huck Finn_ was how the racial aspects >were covered in their HS readings of the book (assuming that many had read >it in HS). The response was surprising to me: the racial issues were >ignored. Responses were generally along the lines of "we didn't talk about >that" or even "we were told not to talk about that" (though I don't think >anyone "told" them this outright. . .) > > >Dean > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:55:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dean, good to see you on the list. Please tell me wht you're up to. Jesse Glass at: ahadada@gol.com -----Original Message----- From: Dean Taciuch To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 8:05 AM Subject: Re: racism & antisemitism >Hilton Obenzinger brought up the issue of how _Huck Finn_ is taught in High >Schools, an issue which was brought to light for me last year when _Huck >Finn_ was the University's "Text and Community" selection. "T and C" is an >program here at George Mason in which a single work is chosen to be >assigned in several different classes, along with presentations at various >University venues dealing with the issues in the work. One of the >questions I asked my classes about _Huck Finn_ was how the racial aspects >were covered in their HS readings of the book (assuming that many had read >it in HS). The response was surprising to me: the racial issues were >ignored. Responses were generally along the lines of "we didn't talk about >that" or even "we were told not to talk about that" (though I don't think >anyone "told" them this outright. . .) > > >Dean > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 03:00:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re : In His Own Write Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me take this up briefly, since Susan Wheeler identifies Lennon's book (& surely would include the other one, "A Spaniard in the Works") as likely instigation for my two little pieces of typo. I did look at both books when they appeared, but they didn't hold my interest. I think because I wanted them to be more Lennon songs? Approached in the context of nonsense writing, however--as I approached them today, grace of Susan's post, and Rachel Loden's--they are eminently readable. And my pieces do appear to stem from those books as source. In truth, many years ago I proof-read a gothic novel for a severely dislectic author. It was hard slogging, and I kept myself going by copying down some of the more telling portmanteau constructions. A few of these, I organized into the units you have seen, supplying others of my own based on the original. As a reader of college essays, I may also have recalled some chestnuts from exams I read. What can open up from a distorted word or phrase provokes me today as it has all my life. I was only a child when I read about a local newspaper having to print a retraction because it had referred to "Colonel Jones, the battle-scared veteran," but came out with "Colonel Jones, the bottle-scarred veteran." The imp in language keeps returning the repressed. In the gothic novel, set in the last century, the 4-y-o son of a single mom ("Unfortunate Woman") tiptoes to the toilet in the middle of the night, and on his way back looks through the half-open door of his mother's bedroom only to see her humping the vicar (often spelled "vigor"). The vicar notices the child staring at him & his partner, and cries out indignantly, "the boy must be severely wiped!" David ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:18:26 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Content-Type: text/plain I'm just now beginning to get _almost_ caught up on posts to the Poetics List after a period of having to ignore it while doing other things (i.e. writing grants for the Left Hand Reading Series)-- so excuse me if this has already been covered. We had some posts on this subject about a month ago, as I recall. In any case, yes it's been my experience too to find typos in a certain amount of my work that's appeared in magazines. I recall once reading of Olson complaining about the same problem, so I don't think it's anything new. I don't think I need to point out that this is also a potential problem for textual scholars & critics, in addition to general readers &, of course, the poets themselves. The moral is, for all you overworked/underfunded editors: SEND PROOFS & indicate a deadline for reply. Mark DuCharme dan featherston wrote: >i just received the latest issue of _mike & dale's younger poets_ & find >that the title of the piece i'd submitted to them was mis-printed > >should be "aerial photograph of an elephant graveyard"; >is "aerial photograph of an elephant". > >over the past five years of contributing writing to smaller magazines, i'd >guess that roughly 1/3 of my work has had at least one typographical error >(from missing punctuation to misspellings, problems with layout, etc.). >has this been anyone else's experience? > >i find it deplorable that so many small magazines are misprinting works. >where is the careful proof-reading? in order to cut costs and save >time, fewer and fewer small magazines send proofs to writers. but the real >cost is publishing work as it was _not_ intended to be read. too many small >magazine editors seem to have an assembly line/drive-thru mentality >regarding the product: just get another issue out, no matter the quality >and accuracy, no matter the process, without taking the time to carefully >proof the work. what they end up publishing is _not_ what was >submitted! once an editor tells me they're using my work, i assume >that it will appear (given, of course, the physical constraints of >the magazine) as i wrote it. is this too much to ask? > >poets are supposed to be attentive to language, but what good is it if >the publishers of poetry are inattentive? what's the point of even >publishing a text that's full of errors? if small magazine editors want >their magazines to be taken seriously as bringing forward the news, then >they need to get the facts straight and take more pride in their work: a >magazine's reputation is built not only on content but form. editors need >to keep in mind that they're the custodians between the writer and the >reader-- a role requiring pride and careful work. > >it may come to this: poets who care about accuracy more than publication >will no longer send work to magazines that do not provide proof or have a >reputation for eagle-eye editing. and readers who care to read what was >actually written will no longer subscribe to magazines that do a sloppy >job of editing. errors are human, and errors in language can be both >delightful and insightful, "wanderings" bearing the maker's handprint, the >beautiful flaw. but an error in the very title of a poem strikes me as >gross carelessness. > >in all fairness, there are many small magazine editors who, from my own >experiences, take editing as an art form requiring skill and attention >not unlike the skill and attention of composing a poem. jeff hansen's >_poetic briefs_, juliana spahr and jena osman's _chain_, lee chapman's >_first intensity_, and ed foster's _talisman_ come to mind. such accuracy >should be the norm, not the exception. all it takes is care-- to care >about the language, what you say and how you say it. is that too much to >ask? > >dan featherston > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: <199810251114.GAA22735@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: David Baratier "Mike & Dale & Hoa went through the trouble to put together an issue; that proves merit, intent and dedication to the art. The act of someone writing something and sending it means nothing. It is a self serving act which anyone can do. Any mailbox can attest to that. Submitting means less than nothing if the author is not respecting the space they send work into. If the error is that big a deal, there is only one solution I know: start a magazine...." writing and sending a contribution to a mag means nothing, but editing the mag "proves merit, intent and dedication"? i sense a cart being placed before the horse, as if all those mags out there wd still exist without the efforts of the contributors. isn't editing a mag in many ways as equally self-serving as writing a submission? and just as easy to do? (as the "one solution: start a magazine" injunction clearly suggests...) yr regional devil's advocate, t. tmorange@julian.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:50:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: <19981025171827.13311.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a first edition third state of Dryden's Absalom and Achitophel. Third state means that after they printed a bunch they found some errors, corrected those and printed some more, found more errors, corrected those and moved on. It's not a new problem. The solution, as Mark of the Song says, is obvious. At 09:18 AM 10/25/98 PST, you wrote: >I'm just now beginning to get _almost_ caught up on posts to the Poetics >List after a period of having to ignore it while doing other things >(i.e. writing grants for the Left Hand Reading Series)-- so excuse me if >this has already been covered. > >We had some posts on this subject about a month ago, as I recall. In >any case, yes it's been my experience too to find typos in a certain >amount of my work that's appeared in magazines. I recall once reading >of Olson complaining about the same problem, so I don't think it's >anything new. I don't think I need to point out that this is also a >potential problem for textual scholars & critics, in addition to general >readers &, of course, the poets themselves. > >The moral is, for all you overworked/underfunded editors: SEND PROOFS & >indicate a deadline for reply. > >Mark DuCharme > >dan featherston wrote: >>i just received the latest issue of _mike & dale's younger poets_ & >find >>that the title of the piece i'd submitted to them was mis-printed >> >>should be "aerial photograph of an elephant graveyard"; >>is "aerial photograph of an elephant". >> >>over the past five years of contributing writing to smaller magazines, >i'd >>guess that roughly 1/3 of my work has had at least one typographical >error >>(from missing punctuation to misspellings, problems with layout, etc.). >>has this been anyone else's experience? >> >>i find it deplorable that so many small magazines are misprinting >works. >>where is the careful proof-reading? in order to cut costs and save >>time, fewer and fewer small magazines send proofs to writers. but the >real >>cost is publishing work as it was _not_ intended to be read. too many >small >>magazine editors seem to have an assembly line/drive-thru mentality >>regarding the product: just get another issue out, no matter the >quality >>and accuracy, no matter the process, without taking the time to >carefully >>proof the work. what they end up publishing is _not_ what was >>submitted! once an editor tells me they're using my work, i assume >>that it will appear (given, of course, the physical constraints of >>the magazine) as i wrote it. is this too much to ask? >> >>poets are supposed to be attentive to language, but what good is it if >>the publishers of poetry are inattentive? what's the point of even >>publishing a text that's full of errors? if small magazine editors want >>their magazines to be taken seriously as bringing forward the news, >then >>they need to get the facts straight and take more pride in their work: >a >>magazine's reputation is built not only on content but form. editors >need >>to keep in mind that they're the custodians between the writer and the >>reader-- a role requiring pride and careful work. >> >>it may come to this: poets who care about accuracy more than >publication >>will no longer send work to magazines that do not provide proof or have >a >>reputation for eagle-eye editing. and readers who care to read what was >>actually written will no longer subscribe to magazines that do a sloppy >>job of editing. errors are human, and errors in language can be both >>delightful and insightful, "wanderings" bearing the maker's handprint, >the >>beautiful flaw. but an error in the very title of a poem strikes me as >>gross carelessness. >> >>in all fairness, there are many small magazine editors who, from my own >>experiences, take editing as an art form requiring skill and attention >>not unlike the skill and attention of composing a poem. jeff hansen's >>_poetic briefs_, juliana spahr and jena osman's _chain_, lee chapman's >>_first intensity_, and ed foster's _talisman_ come to mind. such >accuracy >>should be the norm, not the exception. all it takes is care-- to care >>about the language, what you say and how you say it. is that too much >to >>ask? >> >>dan featherston >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:55:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If it were easy to do the injunction wouldn't be necessary--everyone would have done it. Editing a magazine or press is a related but separate art form. A great publication or a great poem is such a rare event that it would be hard to quantify or qualify the energy that goes into the production of same. No need to denigrate either venture. That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to his readers and contributors. Typos are distracting, and they often change the substance of the writing. Occasional flaws will get through, but the unrealizable goal should be perfection. At 12:52 PM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >From: David Baratier >"Mike & Dale & Hoa went through the trouble to put >together an issue; that proves merit, intent and dedication to the art. >The act of someone writing something and sending it means nothing. It is >a self serving act which anyone can do. Any mailbox can attest to that. >Submitting means less than nothing if the author is not respecting the >space they send work into. If the error is that big a deal, there is >only one solution I know: start a magazine...." > >writing and sending a contribution to a mag means nothing, but editing the >mag "proves merit, intent and dedication"? i sense a cart being placed >before the horse, as if all those mags out there wd still exist without >the efforts of the contributors. isn't editing a mag in many ways as >equally self-serving as writing a submission? and just as easy to do? >(as the "one solution: start a magazine" injunction clearly suggests...) > >yr regional devil's advocate, > >t. >tmorange@julian.uwo.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:55:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-10-25 12:52:24 EST, you write: << isn't editing a mag in many ways as equally self-serving as writing a submission? and just as easy to do? >> No. In many ways not. Sure, there are editors who get the odd favor. And writers who get whatever they want because of some snowballing effect from say winning a contest. But, the majority of editors that I've known don't get that many favors. Several of them on this list may be able to testify to that. To edit a magazine well, to raise the money to do it, takes a lot of time. Often at the expense of one's own writing. Of course, there are any numer of strategies to waste time and to speed up the process. If an editor solicits, that takes an enormous amount of time. If an editor just photocopies originals, that takes less. At any rate , it is not as simple as Tom Orange has stated. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:03:04 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: WF publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good to hear that the big anthology's now out, Lawrence. Does us contributors get copies? If not, would you be interested in trading a copy or two for some Runaway Spoon Press books? Let me know what the reaction to the book is. All best, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Apologies for the Standard Mistake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You'd think someone who posts as little as I do to this group would not (again) post a private e.mail to it, but I have. Sorry. Looks like my error at least won't push the number of posts today over 50. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:56:35 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Content-Type: text/plain Leonard Brink wrote: >4. Poems whose strength derives from, or are overly reliant on things >like font and type size should be self-published if at all. This seems a little restrictive. If we don't apply this standard to classics such as "Un Coup de Des," should we expect contemporary poets to be held to it? Certainly editors are free to publish or not publish any type of work they choose, but that's just the point-- some magazines (_Juxta_, for example) do publish a lot of work of this sort, & that's really one of the nice things about the independence of little magazines: it allows for a multiplicity of standards, & discourages the establishment of an overreaching "standard" (a little magazine stylebook?). Not that, I'm sure, you were intending to suggest such a thing, but I think your use of "should" does suggest that (too restrictive) interpretation. Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:29:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: Notley at Poetry Project & other readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to remind East Coasters that they too can see Alice Notley = read this week: Wednesday, October 28 at 8 pm The Poetry Project at St. Mark's reading with Kate Rushin I believe Notley is reading at Brooklyn College on Monday, Oct. 26th = too, don't remember what time, but it is during the day, perhaps 2 pm. = (e-mail me at the Project-poproj@artomatic.com-if you want to know = specifics; I left flyer there) Monday, October 26th at 8 pm Magdalena Zurawski & John McNally at the Project There will be a convoy from Bernadette Mayer's reading at No Moore = (which begins at 6 pm) uptown to see Zurawski & McNally afterwards. = Please come to see both! It is Mayer's last reading for the amazing = "Devotional" series she has been doing for the entire month at No Moore = (corner of No Moore St. and West Broadway). Last week she read for 3+ = hours--it was incredible, unbelievable, transcendant, = once-in-a-lifetime. Other reading hi-lites this week: Bill Luoma & Tony Lopez at Poetry = City, Teachers and Writers, 5 Union Sq. W, 7th floor. And those are my crit picks for today. Goo' Nite M ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:46:57 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, literary magazines have become the sea, which literature flows into at will. How editing a mag is self serving I can not see from my vantage. I find running a press is a position of service and an excellent way to have a fuller view on current writing phenomena. There is the funding Standard writes of, the reading, & the marketing. Marketing each title to its fullest potential has its detrimental side in terms of exposure to individuals. Most of whom never read the journal. I read about 15-20,000 pieces in a given year not including chapbooks & full length books. The issue is 64 pages minus eight for front matter & contributors and another 10-15 pages taken by the featured writer. That leaves forty pages for those submissions. Pound spoke of having the constant contributors published to anchor the journal then an element of surprise for the rest of the issue, an area ever revolving which anyone could appear in. I find that works for me. The price to do that is an entirely different situation though. There is no ease, except if one were to chose to publish a mag which doesn't appear in International Directory Guide, Poet's Market, PEN awards, SPR, Loft etc. Then I would question how many individuals who are not fully accomplished writers will read the issue and be exposed to its possibilities. As for placing the cart before the horse, if someone needs to write they will do so at any and all costs; I rely on that fact, and provide an outlet and audience for that venture. A journal must be of its times without giving in to them. As was written, there is no need to denigrate either the editor or writer for what they contribute. At the same time, in the sea of people writing, the writers are few. I believe that people long to be the amateur discoverer but few ever place themselves in this position. Our societal normative causes this condition. The market needs consumers of entertainment but the creators are not an option offered, let alone a person who abandons entertainment to create and is satisfied through the act. Upon escaping the purchasing frenzy I doubt an editor needs to traverse the psychic woods of the unconscious before they will be able to edit a journal of truly great writing. Although the editor who forwards a journal into art form creates a forum which is more than an extension of content. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:30:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jen hofer Subject: speaking of taking care with language... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark Weiss writes: That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS readers and contributors. (highlight mine) One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he publishes in!) if all the editors are men. Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, jen hofer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:15:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: <199810260501.AAA24042@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-10-25, standard writes: "To edit a magazine well, to raise the money to do it, takes a lot of time. Often at the expense of one's own writing. Of course, there are any numer of strategies to waste time and to speed up the process. If an editor solicits, that takes an enormous amount of time. If an editor just photocopies originals, that takes less. At any rate , it is not as simple as Tom Orange has stated." wasn't stating that editing a mag is simple (hardly!), only that writing and submitting should not be denigrated while editing is upheld as something purely altrustic and thereby more noble. both writing and editing are forms of practice that involve conscious choice based on real and perceived gains and losses. e.g. editing may take time away from one's own writing with the tradeoff being the positioning of oneself as the gatherer/selector/promoter of other's writing. musing, t. tmorange@julian.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:13:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Tom Orange says in response to Standard S.: >editing may take time away from >one's own writing with the tradeoff being the positioning of oneself as >the gatherer/selector/promoter of other's writing. Okay, one's self in addition to the other selves who volunteer for the job, but how is that >equally self-serving as writing a submission? and just as easy to do as you asserted in a previous message? How is promoting others at ones own expense of time, money, energy, and ones own work as "self-serving" as submitting poems to be published at someone else's expense of time, money, energy and work? PS to Mark DuCharme: Just my opinion that poems whose strength lies in language, words, ideas and the like are more interesting than poems whose strength depends on fonts, etc. To each his/her own. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:10:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981025233012.006b303c@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, instead of "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do this in languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? No apologies. At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >Mark Weiss writes: >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS >readers and contributors. > >(highlight mine) > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. > > > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, > >jen hofer > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:29:02 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My view is that its a humbling experience to deal with the many brilliant = and humane souls contributing to small presses, and that the experience = far overrides the much-lauded thanklessness of the editors task. Best, Ralph Wessman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:15:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981025105005.00a59360@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:50 AM -0800 10/25/98, Mark Weiss wrote: >I have a first edition third state of Dryden's Absalom and Achitophel. oh yeah? well i've got an old paperback copy of Marquis's Archi and Mehitabel. on anothe note, saw the David S. Ware quartet last night they were out of this world. very groovy, elsewhere music. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:57:58 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If a writer wants to make himself or herself appear truly ridiculous, s/he ought to ensure the PC [pronominal correctness] his/her scrivenage, s/he need only mindlessly cleave to the hermaphroditic fallacy & fruitlessly multiple entities, contra Ockham. When possible, I use plurals; if not, I usually manage to fend off the harpies of PC & employ the masculine singular, unless the feminine makes more sense. Why savage the tongue? PC usage makes the writer seem *primarily* concerned with avoiding the *appearance* of sexism, rather than with communicating any particular ideas. It says "don't think; obey." It ignores, hegemonically, instance for principle, tree for forest. It also undercuts its own purpose because it provides a mantric smokescreen for sexists: just perform the magic chant & no one will ever know. Good intentions don't stiffen this rubber crutch. Dan Zimmerman Mark Weiss wrote: > > Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, instead of > "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do this in > languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? > No apologies. > > At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Mark Weiss writes: > >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS > >readers and contributors. > > > >(highlight mine) > > > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he > >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. > > > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? > > > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. > > > > > > > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, > > > >jen hofer > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 00:30:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WENDY KRAMER Organization: N/A Subject: inept my ass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey, kevin killian, it's wendy kramer. that book y'all wrote is beautiful. what a documentary! among other things. refreshing to read a bio that's so much made of interviews (inter-views hey!) i direct projectile lesbian vomit to that badmouthing reviewer, to add to your own curses and dry your tears. and i agree, it _was_ worth the wait. i waited nigh four months for to get the new york public library "on order" "coming soon" copy waited and fretted and checked its status while other people read it and said how swell it was. well, it _was_ swell. and then i hadda hurry up and pass it on to the next person in the reserves line (i kept it overdue) cuz it's one lonely copy in a system of round abouts 87 branches. *sigh* but glad the public library put it up for order in the first place. So, a note to ny public lie berry users, for those what cant buy, BORROW! cuz the more demand, the more reason to order more copies! love and thanks kevin and lewis ellingham for your work, dee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:03:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: joy of pronouns When are people going to catch on? It started around Duluth Minnesota, but appears not to have spread to the coasts yet. When you're in a "hurry", just forget about "his & hers", or s/he, or h/er/m - use ELF! Here's a simple example: "The conscientious editor is a self-flagellating goody-goody who loves all gooey writing and does elf best to publish the best out there." or: "An editor must respect elf authors and do elf best to promote gooey writing through the known and uninhabited world." or: An editor strives to please elf public with the worst writing available through elf careful selection and elfly shepherding of elf young writers through the process of ritual slaughter by elf people." Get it? Elf is catching on! - Henry Gould, hermaphrodite squirrel today's dog slogan: "elf, elf!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <363471D6.79C9@idt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I dunno. I always find it a little bit jarring when students refer to all authors as "he," even when the author in question is named Angela or Ann. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:01:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: there's a mag at the end of this typo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sigh. so while i'm still working through my recently received copy of Mike & Dale's Younger Poets issue 10 i can at least say I've been dazzled by Roberto Tejada's great translations of Jose Lezama Lima's poems as well as the interview with Joanne Kyger which I only wish was ten times longer as Kyger is so terrific & so neglected -- as has been previously mentioned by Dale Smith, Ron Silliman & others & has been the case for years but her case seems to me to be exceedingly blatant & unjustifiable as she is routinely ignored by poets of all shapes sizes and aesthetics as well as the recent anthologizers of post-modern/innovative/radical/experimental/non-mainstream/etcetcetcetcetce tcetcetcetcetcetc poetry. I mean, really. & I happen to know Dale & Hoa & Mike put a tremendous amount of energy & work & care into doing their magazine & books. It seems unecessary to single out M & D's as the object of an anti-typo tirade. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:00:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Spicer at MLA? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does anyone perchance know if there is a panel being planned on Jack Spicer or on the SF Renaissance (or any proposed topics where a paper on Spicer would be appropriate) for San Francisco MLA in '99? Any info appreciated. Thanks. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:12:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities Subject: Re: Spicer at MLA? In-Reply-To: <45962884520@student.highland.cc.il.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, KENT JOHNSON wrote: > Does anyone perchance know if there is a panel being planned on Jack > Spicer or on the SF Renaissance (or any proposed topics where a paper > on Spicer would be appropriate) for San Francisco MLA in '99? Any > info appreciated. MLA is in SF _this_ december (1998); i'm not sure where it will be in '99, but it should be mid-continent (denver, chicago, dallas). a quick purusal of the '98 program revealed nothing relating to either spicer or the SF Ren. ...too bad, it's a good idea... --ShaunAnne Tangney > > Thanks. > > Kent > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:05:21 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Forrest Gander, Stefanie Marlis, Tony Towle & Arshile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you in the Southern California Area: Thursday Night, October 29: Forrest Gander, Stefanie Marlis, Tony Towle reading at Mount St. Mary's College 12001 Chalon Road (in Brentwood, West of the 405, North of Sunset Blvd.) Reading starts at 7:00 p.m. in the Jose Drudis-Biada Art Gallery. I'd also like to remind everyone of our upcoming Arshile Tenth Issue Bash, as follows: Friday Night, October 30: Arshile Benefit Reading at Beyond Baroque Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center 681 Venice Blvd. (in Venice, West of Lincoln Blvd.) Reception starts at 5:00 p.m., reading starts at 7:00 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:04:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: JOEL OPPENHEIMER SYMPOSIUM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I haven't seen anyone mention this yet--at new England College, Henniker NH, Oct. 29-30, 1998. Oct. 29 7 p.m. Creeley Reading. Oct. 30 9-5, papers & panel, presenters: Robert Bertholf, Richard Blevins, David Landrey, Ed Foster, Lyman Gilmore, Patrick Meanor, Michael G. Stephens. (Little heavy on the testosterone, but don't blame me for that, I'm just reporting). Organizer is Don Melander at New England College, phone 603.428.2298. I'll be there, and will try to report something of the event. Listafarians, please say hello. Events are in the Simon Center Great Room. best, Sylvester Pollet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:23:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" oh how I should be grading papers, applying for jobs, applying for grants for Outlet/DLB, doing laundry- or uh WRITING - and should just stray from the fray but Standard I must say YES-- I TESTIFY. To edit a magazine well, to raise the money to do it, takes a lot of >time. Often at the expense of one's own writing. Of course, there are any >numer of strategies to waste time and to speed up the process. If an editor >solicits, that takes an enormous amount of time. If an editor just >photocopies originals, that takes less. At any rate , it is not as simple as >Tom Orange has stated. Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:27:01 -0500 Reply-To: levitsk@ibm.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: [Fwd: Stephen Daniel M : Lynching of Kenyan Woman (fwd)] Comments: To: mbpratt@earthlink.net, listproc@hawaii.edu, rgladman@sfaids.ucsf.edu, 103326.2404@compuserve.com, BetsyAndrews@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: from x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28] by in3.ibm.net id 908857084.59886-1 ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 04:18:04 +0000 Received: (from mesrod@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRYQNRYD; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:17:09 EDT To: 103326.2404@compuserve.com, marella.colyvas@eds.com, lykinsg@aol.com, frans@sopriswest.com, levitsk@ibm.net, gwenv@spectralogic.com, kristen@euclid.colorado.edu, andersd@spot.colorado.edu, valenzue@spot.colorado.edu, jedwards@fsl.noaa.gov, klockeb@sobek.colorado.edu, chernus@spot.colorado.edu, rsell56069@aol.com, mesrod@juno.com, daniel.stephen@colorado.edu, llefthand@juno.com, desert56@hotmail.com, renay@iname.com, markducharme@hotmail.com, pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:01:12 -0600 Subject: Stephen Daniel M : Lynching of Kenyan Woman (fwd) Message-ID: <19981019.222350.14102.2.mesrod@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,11-359 From: mesrod@juno.com (EUGENE RODRIGUEZ) --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Stephen Daniel M To: mesrod@juno.com, dean@plinet.com Subject: Lynching of Kenyan Woman (fwd) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:01:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: Hi: I am forwarding the following because complaints that blacks and others are making with regard to the activist and media attention focused on the Matthew Shephard incidident are, I believe, totally valid. Shephard's white skin and middle-class status did not save him from attack, but it did save him from falling into obscurity. Unfortunately, few in the lesbian or gay community are willing to consider such criticims- in part because control over political discussion is resting almost exclusively in the hands of a few who act primarily on the basis of class interest- Are there no grassroots gay and lesbian organizations left in the world? Dan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:26:59 -0400 From: Scott McLarty To: Lola Hemiola Subject: Lynching of Kenyan Woman (fwd) From: League W. Voters@voters1 on 10/17/98 03:46 PM Subject: Lynching of Kenyan Woman (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 10:30:32 +0200 From: Lynette A. Jackson Subject: Lynching of Kenyan Woman Dear Black Feminists, Has anyone heard/made noise about the Kenyan woman lynched in the South a few weeks ago? Have you heard about the case? I know that you've have hear about the case of Matthew Sheppard. I feel deeply sorry for the fact that this young, gay, white man was lynched, but can't help notice that, while his whiteness did not prevent them from taking his life, it has prevented this heinous act from passing into oblivion, from passing in silence. The young Kenyan sister (apparently) lynched in Alabama, on the other hand....Let's hear some noise. I'll see what I can do this side. (A friend tells me that she has heard of plans to write a feature article on the incident; but it might be good to have a Black feminst response, don't you agree? peace Lynette ------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Fwd: Kenya woman Lynched in Alabama Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:39:47 -0400 (EDT) From: sun2soul To: sun2soul@mindspring.com CC: MSWNY@aol.com Dear friends and comrades: Please help circulate this widely, and if you have any suggestions or contacts please forward to the originator of this e-mail message listed below: Martin White (Mwangi) MSWNY@aol.com sincere thanks, Kagendo ******* ******* ******* this is a forwarded message reformatted for legibility ******* ******* ******* >>>August 20, 1998 Dear friends, Kenyans and other kind concerned persons, I have tracked down more specific information about the hanging death of the young Kenyan woman in Alabama, which many of you know I became aware of only because of an Internet posting by a nurse in Alabama. This nurse expressed concern for Catherine, a friend of her 17 year old son, happen in Alabama. Unfortunately, no national newswire stories have been run and I had to hand type the following attached stories from faxes I was able to needle out of the local paper in Muscle Shoals, Alabama. I hope that you will join me in disseminating this information to persons and organizations capable of bringing some focus and attention to Catherine's death and the circumstances surrounding them. The nurse in Alabama who originally posted the messages that made me aware of this story expressed concerns about the strange nature of this hanging death and the timing of it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a push by local authorities toward labeling this hanging death a suicide. If you read the stories, I think you'll agree that this story does require further investigation. Catherine Mutheki was a 20 year old Kenyan woman who came to the U.S. only in March of this year. She had a perfect 4.0 grade point average and had never missed a class before Monday. There is no indication that she was emotionally disturbed from any of the articles I read (see those attached). In fact, everyone who knew Catherine felt she was a very happy and determined person, including one of her teachers who has come forward to say she does not think it was a suicide. As you may already know, Catherine was found hanged by her sweater, from a railroad spurabout 200 yards from her dorm room on Wednesday, August 13th. More surprising about her death, Catherine was hanging low enough from the tree that she could have placed her feet on the ground at any time to stop it. As far as I know, that is an a-typical form of suicide and, unless Catherine had been intoxicated or had some other condition, I can't imagine that this form of self-asphyxiation would be easy. Moreover, it simply doesn't sound consistent with the picture of Catherine painted in the the articles by her specific friends. (Apparently, the RN and her son, who knew Catherine, didn't think it sounded likely either.) I believe that there is a strong possibility that Catherine Mutheki's death was no suicide but could have been precipitated by anger over the bombings of the Embassy in Nairobi. Because I'm in NYC, I have no basis for this belief other than the facts as you shall read them below, and my reading of a variety of posts on the Internet last week which suggested a great deal of hostility toward Kenyans for the bombing. The other basis for my belief is the concern and fear of the local nurse, whose son knew Catherine. If you know anyone who you think should know about this story or who could get it into the media (investigative media, preferably) or into a human rights organization which will investigate it, I would much appreciate it. I have contacted the Kenyan Mission to the U.N. in New York - and the person I spoke to knew nothing about this story until my contacting them. I have also delivered this material, or given specific pertinent information via voice mail, to a Kenyan paper (The Nation), the Alabama State NAACP, the Southern Poverty Law Center (which didn't know anything about it), the offices of Senator Carol Mosley-Braun, Congressman Charles-Rangel's office, Bill Clinton's and Al Gore's e-mail addresses and to a variety of other sources. I have so far been less effective with the media, counting on organized human rights organizations to give weight to the story. As an individual who lives in New York City, it is difficult to speak credibly to media and others about a story in Alabama. Please, however, if you think of someone who might be motivated to investigate this story, forward this e-mail to them, and send it to anyone you know that might be interested. I have also included various telephone numbers for relevant elected officials below. If you feel so inclined, you might call them to express concern about the manner of Catherine's death and you might expand the circle by calling your own Congressmen, Senators, news media or other concerned organizations. It would be important, given the circumstances surrounding Catherine's death and given their proximity to the international events that transpired in Nairobi on August 7th to strongly suggest that you feel that this might be a hate crime and therefore subject to investigation by federal authorities, like the recent case outside of Houston - the dragging death of the Texan man. Please do not hesitate to contact me at MSWNY@aol.com if you would like to discuss more coordinated efforts on this matter. Thank you, Martin White (Mwangi) MSWNY@aol.com --------------------------------- August 30th, 1998 Dear Friends, Kenyans and Kind Concerned Persons, I spoke to members of the Kenyan community in Alabama this evening about Catherine's death. They had organized themselves from a city in Alabama and had gone up to Catherine's college. They arrived just in time to prevent Catherine's body from being rapidly cremated by the college. Apparently, the school had "not yet reached Catherine's family" and was anxious to have her body cremated. An odd thing to do with a foreign woman's body - where the cause of death has still not been officially determined by the local police. I learned the following details with regard to Catherine's death: 1. Catherine called a friend in Birmingham the week before her death, at 3:00 a.m., frightened terribly, to say that she had been threatened and was very afraid. I will be speaking to the young friend of Catherine's tomorrow to find out what Catherine told him/her specifically. 2. A member of the staff of Catherine's College has come forward to the Kenyans and told them that she/he does not believe that Catherine committed suicide. 3. Apparently the Muscle Shoals Police Department is still investigating Catherine's death and has NOT determined that it was a suicide. However, THEY have received many calls from local persons in the community telling them that it was a suicide. [A pretty brazen community - if they feel they can call the Police and demand a specific finding]. This is just to keep you posted. I have encountered some disbelief that this is a story from members of the press. The fact that this story has not received national attention and that it has barely even received coverage in Alabama - seems to be determinative to members of the press.Please, if you feel as strongly about this case as I and many Kenyans do, then make yourself heard to your Congresspersons, Senators, the Justice Department (Civil Rights Division) and local newspapers that this IS a hate crime and a news story and must be covered and must be investigated as a Hate Crime, under Federal Hate Crime laws. Mention the Federal Hate Crime Prevention Act of 1998 if you want to make it seem relevant to current Congressional business (just about every Democratic and many Republican Congressmen and Senators sponsored this bill this year - hopefully they weren't just going through the motions). So long as this story only gets local coverage of the type you saw in my last e-mail, and the only people demanding an investigation are foreigners (or New Yorkers), Catherine's death will continue to be investigated under questionable and difficult circumstances - for the Kenyan Community in Alabama and for the local officers who are subject to local pressures. Please pass this e-mail on to as many people in the community of kind concerned persons as you can and try to add your voice to any e-mails you can send. I thank you in advance for forwarding this and past e-mails and for sharing the burden. Thank you and Peace, Martin White (Mwangi) P.S. I apologize if this e-mail is vague with regard to the identities of the persons mentioned. However, due to the fact that members of the Kenyan Community in Alabama might be further threatened, I have tried to keep identities vague. However, if you're a bona fide member of the press or a human rights organization, upon their permission, I will be happy to release the names and contact information of those referred to herein. Attached below are the local press stories and original e-mail: --------------------------------- The Kenyan community in Alabama will attempt to have a gathering sometime this week to discuss how we should proceed in order to ensure that Catherine Mutheki's death is properly investigated and that no conclusions are forced in order to close the case. 3 local Alabama news stories follow from the TimesDaily, Muscle Shoals, Alabama: ---- Nationwide search on for student By Mike Goens Senior Reporter August 12, 1998 MUSCLE SHOALS - A nationwide search is under way for a native Kenyan who was last seen walking down the hallway at her Northwest-Shoals Community College dormitory Sunday afternoon. Catherine Mutheki, 20, arrived in the Shoals on March 3 and enrolled at Nortwest-Shoals six days later to begin studying pre-practical nursing, school officials said. Until Monday, she had never missed a class, school officials said. "We're very much concerned because everyone we've talked to has told us that this is so uncharacteristic of her," said Muscle Shoals Assistant Police Chief David Bradford. "The folks at the community college are very upset because they haven't heard from her." Mutheki, a native of Nairobi, Kenya, has officially been listed as a "missing person and endangered," according to Bradford. All local law enforcement agencies have been notified and Muscle Shoals police have entered information about her in a national computer center databank. Melanie Thompson, assistant residence director at Nortwest-Shoals contacted Muscle Shoals police just before 11 p.m. Monday about Mutheki's disappearance. Bradford said fellow students reported last seeing Mutheki about 1:45 p.m. Sunday as she was walking down the dor >> >>> ******* ******* ******* --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Hannah Weiner Memorial Nov. 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hannah Weiner: A 70th Birthday Memorial Tribute Saturday, November 7, 1998 4pm The Poertry Project, St. Mark's Church, 10th Street & Second Avenue New York City Charles Alexander Bruce Andrews Abigail Child Maria Damon Tina Darragh Alan Davies Maurice Finegold Kenneth Goldsmith Phil Good Ernesto Grosman Bob Harrison Michael Heller Herny Hills Peter Inman Jackson Mac Low Sharon Mattlin Bernadette Mayer Phill Niblock Nick Piombino Joan Retallack Barbara Rosenthal Carolee Schneeman James Sherry Ron Silliman Anne Tardos Fiona Templeton Tod Thilleman Lewis Warsh Barrett Watten plus coordinators Charles Bernstein Lee Ann Brown Andrew Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:33:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: reads Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit east coast heads and denver vicinities, i'll be camping in your areas. if you'd like to meet for poems beers tea or yoga or the fat one, send me an email. or call me. 212-529-3681. read with Tony Lopez wed Cct 29 7pm Teachers & Writers (5 union square west 7th floor) NYC read with Fred Wah sun Oct 31 8pm Bridge Street Books (2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW) DC read with Barbara Cole, Brett Evans & Elinor Nauen fri Nov 7 7pm at George's 5th St Cafe (5th St. bewteen Lombard & South Sts in Center City) Philli read with Ted Greenwald sun Nov 8 6:30pm at the Zinc bar (90 West Houston St. just west of La GuardiaPlace) NYC read with Richard Wilmarth mon Nov 9 9pm at Penny Lane Coffee Cafe (on Pearl Street near the Beat Book store ) Boulder. hope to see yous. Bill Luoma maz881@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:28:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Erato & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" editing a mag can be self serving in two ways i can think of, 1. tenure; 2, back scratching, maybe if i publish even one of this dullard's poems he'll publish me in hubblebubble. Not to mention the sex, to transpose the Tom Clark axiom, on every little campus there's a poet that'll snap their pantie elastic at the mere sight of an editor. This works in reverse as well, if you don't publish this dullard's poems you don't get tenure. Or you don't get your poems on the billboards if you run readings for five or ten years and don't invite the dullard poets. Dullards rule ok? likem and lumpen, billy little billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:21:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: reads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shucks bill, no reads in the backwoods of wisconsin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:39:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Erato & small magazines In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is a joke, right? As to the sexual possibilities, may I point out that it would be the most expensive date since Anthony and Cleopatra? At 11:28 AM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >editing a mag can be self serving in two ways i can think of, 1. tenure; 2, >back scratching, maybe if i publish even one of this dullard's poems he'll >publish me in hubblebubble. Not to mention the sex, to transpose the Tom >Clark axiom, on every little campus there's a poet that'll snap their >pantie elastic at the mere sight of an editor. This works in reverse as >well, if you don't publish this dullard's poems you don't get tenure. Or >you don't get your poems on the billboards if you run readings for five or >ten years and don't invite the dullard poets. Dullards rule ok? > >likem and lumpen, > >billy little > >billy little >4 song st. >nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > >Go ahead and say something true >before the big turd eats You >You can say any last thing in Your poem. > >-Alice Notley > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:50:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Information, please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two quick requests: 1. Anybody have an email address for Fred Muratori? 2. I'm putting together a selection of uncollected poems by the late poet and novelist Richard Elman. He was in the habit of sending only copies of poems to friends. If anyone out there has any such, would you please send copies to Mark Weiss, PO Box 40537, San Diego CA 92164. His wife Alice and I have agreed that sending to me would be the best way. I'll make sure that she gets copies as well. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:51:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Spicer at MLA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why don't "we" just put together a special session at the next MLA? The deadline, I believe, is around mid-March for the December meetings. May I suggest the topic of Spicer and Lorca? Anyone interested may back-channel me. I am willing to put the thing together. Of course, you have to be a member of MLA, and not all special sessions are approved by the "program committee." Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:06:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Poetry City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Luoma and Tony Lopez read at Poetry City Thursday, November 29 7 pm free admission free eats free wine 5 Union Square West 7th Fl NYC hosted by Jordan Davis and Anna Malmude in the offices of Teachers & Writers Collaborative ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: an error is a way to get to speak twice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill and Tony read this Thursday Thursday, _October_ 29 oops! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:12:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: Carlyle Reedy EPC web page: Call for performance reviews etc Comments: cc: poetryetc@listbot.com, liveart@mailbase.ac.uk, british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am putting together an Electronic Poetry Centre Web Page for Carlyle Reedy: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors I would like to include on the page reviews/descriptions/enthusiasms for her PERFORMANCE works from the late-sixties to mid-eighties. If anyone would like to write/has already written text on her performances, please backchannel; both references and the texts themselves would be of interest. Also wanted: reviews/criticism of any work (poetry, visual work etc) for which copyright is available to be used on to the web page; references for paper-published reviews/criticism; any other works/references/images that can be cited or reproduced. Contact me at mailto:a.sumner@dartington.ac.uk (DO NOT USE 'REPLY'!) or contact Carlyle direct. STANDARD DISCLAIMER: aplogs for xpositing. STANDARD REQUEST: please forward to any others who might... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:20:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <363471D6.79C9@idt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII jen hofer - yeah so when i read yer NOTE about HIS i thought hey well thanks for the reminder, but certainly these terribly enlightened and perceptively groovy folks on the buflo listserv slip once in a while, some forget that women got the vote a little while back and all, no harm no foul BUT....... On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > If a writer wants to make himself or herself appear truly ridiculous, > s/he ought to ensure the PC [pronominal correctness] his/her scrivenage, > s/he need only mindlessly cleave to the hermaphroditic fallacy what fallacy is this ?? the one about me not having to buy into the necessity to live out a masculine scopophilic fantasy...a fallacy to even suppose that it's possible for a woman to live not as a backdrop to every mode of discourse ever developed...to attempt to live not through a single my very own special solid ME...YES , what a farce, to acknowledge the discomfort of leaving our pretty syntax, to find out a conceptual framework is only a framework and can OHMYGOD possible be shifted OH the possibilities of language!, may we never go to far (even with those pesky ole pronouns) the real problem is that using a universal 'she' is immediately much fishier - certainly should be fishy in universalizing, but certainly is never the proposed soluntion when PC-backlashers harp on the silliness of making pronouns co-ed , hence... > When possible, I use > plurals; if not, I usually manage to fend off the harpies of PC & employ > the masculine singular, unless the feminine makes more sense. and so given these conditions, it seems that conveniently the feminine could never 'make more sense' > > Why savage the tongue? shit on it spit on it please to god take away any thing called MINE (voice) cause certainly will never do no one no good unless it is adequately ruined spoiled fucked run amuck in the squalor and thats that PC usage makes the writer seem *primarily* > concerned with avoiding the *appearance* of sexism, rather than with > communicating any particular ideas. It says "don't think; obey." It > ignores, hegemonically, instance for principle, tree for forest. It also > undercuts its own purpose because it provides a mantric smokescreen for > sexists: just perform the magic chant & no one will ever know. one li'l ole pronoun does all that - in that case i say go for it ...and if all of the sexist people i meet were ever actually take measures to simply 'avoid the appearance of sexism', while wallowing at night in their bedrooms full of sexist rage (thinking of me while shouting 'hey sweetheart, hey honey, hey dear, hey beautiful come sit on my lap, hey bitch...'you can imagine!) i would ask for nothing more > intentions don't stiffen this rubber crutch. > i should hope not! peace love understanding, rd > Dan Zimmerman > > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, instead of > > "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do this in > > languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? > > No apologies. > > > > At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Mark Weiss writes: > > >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS > > >readers and contributors. > > > > > >(highlight mine) > > > > > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he > > >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. > > > > > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? > > > > > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. > > > > > > > > > > > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, > > > > > >jen hofer > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:56:19 -0000 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: Erato & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For aspiring and possibly perspiring editors it may be worth pointing out that the poet's intentions may not be sexual. Even light gauge pantie elastic - worn by whatever gender - can take an eye out. Randolph Healy from suantrai@iol.ie ---------- > From: Billy Little Not to mention the sex, to transpose the Tom > Clark axiom, on every little campus there's a poet that'll snap their > pantie elastic at the mere sight of an editor. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:34:36 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I should stay out of this he/she fuss but now that Daniel Zimmerman has been brave enough to expose his unPC-ness, I feel I ought to let it be known that I back him. I hate the use of "he or she" myself because I automatically KNOW that an editor, say, is a he OR her, and am irritated to be told that by a him-or-herer. It's exactly why I also hate the expression "at this point in time." (Though there are times, however infrequently, when each expression IS valid.) I also think it's an insult to women to believe that the use of the generic "he" will subconsciously force them to believe that all the vocations it is used with are for men only. But, like Daniel, I try to avoid problems by using plurals, or "one," or second person. --Bob G. wrote: > > > If a writer wants to make himself or herself appear truly ridiculous, > > s/he ought to ensure the PC [pronominal correctness] his/her scrivenage, > > s/he need only mindlessly cleave to the hermaphroditic fallacy > > what fallacy is this ?? the one about me not having to buy into the > necessity to live out a masculine scopophilic fantasy...a fallacy to even > suppose that it's possible for a woman to live not as a backdrop to every > mode of discourse ever developed...to attempt to live not through a single > my very own special solid ME...YES , what a farce, to acknowledge the > discomfort of leaving our pretty syntax, to find out a conceptual > framework is only a framework and can OHMYGOD possible be shifted > OH the possibilities of language!, may we never go to far (even with those > pesky ole pronouns) > > the real problem is that using a universal 'she' is immediately much > fishier - certainly should be fishy in universalizing, but certainly is > never the proposed soluntion when PC-backlashers harp on the silliness of > making pronouns co-ed , hence... > > > When possible, I use > > plurals; if not, I usually manage to fend off the harpies of PC & employ > > the masculine singular, unless the feminine makes more sense. > > and so given these conditions, it seems that conveniently the feminine > could never 'make more sense' > > > > Why savage the tongue? > > shit on it spit on it please to god take away any thing called MINE > (voice) cause certainly will never do no one no good unless it is > adequately ruined spoiled fucked run amuck in the squalor > and thats that > > PC usage makes the writer seem *primarily* > > concerned with avoiding the *appearance* of sexism, rather than with > > communicating any particular ideas. It says "don't think; obey." It > > ignores, hegemonically, instance for principle, tree for forest. It also > > undercuts its own purpose because it provides a mantric smokescreen for > > sexists: just perform the magic chant & no one will ever know. > > one li'l ole pronoun does all that - in that case i say go for it > ...and if all of the sexist people i meet were ever actually take measures > to simply 'avoid the appearance of sexism', while wallowing at night in > their bedrooms full of sexist rage (thinking of me while shouting 'hey > sweetheart, hey honey, hey dear, hey beautiful come sit on my lap, hey > bitch...'you can imagine!) i would ask for nothing more > > > intentions don't stiffen this rubber crutch. > > > > i should hope not! > > peace love understanding, > > rd > > > Dan Zimmerman > > > > > > Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > > Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, instead of > > > "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do this in > > > languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? > > > No apologies. > > > > > > At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Mark Weiss writes: > > > >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS > > > >readers and contributors. > > > > > > > >(highlight mine) > > > > > > > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he > > > >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. > > > > > > > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? > > > > > > > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, > > > > > > > >jen hofer > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:05:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" well for what it's worth, i'm with rd and jen h on this, for reasons that would or could take a few years to detail... the question is not whether adding a she/her/hers can do any harm... the question is rather the ways in which not doing so, for so many centuries, has already done much harm... as a teacher i see said harm every day, but am loathe to privilege my own perspective here... still, i'm actually a bit puzzled---is it possible that poets, of all people, would not be sensitive to the massive influence the male pronoun has had in passing itself off as ungendered?... i suppose this is a rhetorical question, sadly... no ire here, guys (and gals?)---so please not to jump on my shit... but to see such an elemental issue rendered ostensibly trivial by presumed association with "political correctness"---well, makes me wonder whether any of you naysayers have had even a cursory glance at feminist thought... or is using the f word (around) here yet another example of pc?... c'mon... but no hard feelings, just the same... /// joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:15:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While we're reforming the language (and in the process erasing its history), has anybody thought to find better terms than fe-male and wo-man? Surely we can come up with words that aren't so clearly a product of patriarchy. Since I'm leaving town for a couple of weeks I thought I might make a little mischief. At 02:20 PM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >jen hofer - yeah so when i read yer NOTE about HIS i thought hey well >thanks for the reminder, but certainly these terribly enlightened and >perceptively groovy folks on the buflo listserv slip once in a while, some >forget that women got the vote a little while back and all, no harm no >foul > >BUT....... > > >On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > >> If a writer wants to make himself or herself appear truly ridiculous, >> s/he ought to ensure the PC [pronominal correctness] his/her scrivenage, >> s/he need only mindlessly cleave to the hermaphroditic fallacy > >what fallacy is this ?? the one about me not having to buy into the >necessity to live out a masculine scopophilic fantasy...a fallacy to even >suppose that it's possible for a woman to live not as a backdrop to every >mode of discourse ever developed...to attempt to live not through a single >my very own special solid ME...YES , what a farce, to acknowledge the >discomfort of leaving our pretty syntax, to find out a conceptual >framework is only a framework and can OHMYGOD possible be shifted >OH the possibilities of language!, may we never go to far (even with those >pesky ole pronouns) > >the real problem is that using a universal 'she' is immediately much >fishier - certainly should be fishy in universalizing, but certainly is >never the proposed soluntion when PC-backlashers harp on the silliness of >making pronouns co-ed , hence... > > >> When possible, I use >> plurals; if not, I usually manage to fend off the harpies of PC & employ >> the masculine singular, unless the feminine makes more sense. > >and so given these conditions, it seems that conveniently the feminine >could never 'make more sense' >> >> Why savage the tongue? > >shit on it spit on it please to god take away any thing called MINE >(voice) cause certainly will never do no one no good unless it is >adequately ruined spoiled fucked run amuck in the squalor >and thats that > > > >PC usage makes the writer seem *primarily* >> concerned with avoiding the *appearance* of sexism, rather than with >> communicating any particular ideas. It says "don't think; obey." It >> ignores, hegemonically, instance for principle, tree for forest. It also >> undercuts its own purpose because it provides a mantric smokescreen for >> sexists: just perform the magic chant & no one will ever know. > >one li'l ole pronoun does all that - in that case i say go for it >...and if all of the sexist people i meet were ever actually take measures >to simply 'avoid the appearance of sexism', while wallowing at night in >their bedrooms full of sexist rage (thinking of me while shouting 'hey >sweetheart, hey honey, hey dear, hey beautiful come sit on my lap, hey >bitch...'you can imagine!) i would ask for nothing more > > >> intentions don't stiffen this rubber crutch. >> > >i should hope not! > >peace love understanding, > >rd > > >> Dan Zimmerman >> >> >> Mark Weiss wrote: >> > >> > Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, instead of >> > "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do this in >> > languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? >> > No apologies. >> > >> > At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >Mark Weiss writes: >> > >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS >> > >readers and contributors. >> > > >> > >(highlight mine) >> > > >> > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he >> > >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. >> > > >> > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? >> > > >> > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, >> > > >> > >jen hofer >> > > >> > > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:48:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Joanne's Defense; Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BE0143.8CDE8042" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE0143.8CDE8042 Content-Type: text/plain Glad to see the Poetry Project (is it Anselm B., really? I think I saw that in one post) defend Joanne -- don't such exclusions arise from categories that are too narrow, and which ignore lively, necessary work because it might not fit someone's conception of avant-garde or experimental or post-modern? The "old Bolinas crowd" must really be getting old . . . I affix the following list of haiku not for their poetic incisiveness, but solely for cat lovers on the list, whom I'm sure will take pleasure from them. <> (It's a Word 97 document -- if anyone's interested and can't read it, back-channel me and I'll figure out another way to send it). 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========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:41:41 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I often wonder about the so-called power of language. So many people are offended by name-calling, for instance, but I'm not. I think it may be that poets UNDER-RATE the power of words because they can control them. Like football players not thinking (mild) physical violance is harmless because they're used to it. I've often argued (with friends) that freedom of speech is not a "natural right," but something people strong in verbal ability like; I can see the point of view of those against it, but still choose it myself because information is important to me. I don't consider it an absolute good, just a good that I happen to prefer. Though I can see their point of view, I think, it is still hard for me to sympathize with people who are, who claim to be, victims of words. And it has to be admitted that there are many who make a career of offendability. There's much more to be said on this topic, but this weak attempt to suggest the gist of my feelings on it, I hope, will be my last post to this thread. The subject is too complex for full discussion, and too sensitive for any kind of easy-going bs session. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:11:57 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: > > well for what it's worth, i'm with rd and jen h on this, for reasons that would > or could > take a few years to detail... > > the question is not whether adding a she/her/hers can do any harm... the > question is rather the ways in which not doing so, for so many centuries, > has already done much harm... DZ: I agree that *never* using a feminine pronoun demonstrates a pitiful --even reprehensible--degree of opacity, but I did not even suggest that particular straw man, nor do I feel responsible to undo the injustices of the past, since the evils of the present offer such abundant targets. And in the present, it seems to me that the awkwardification of the language in the interests of *any* agenda, however laudable [e.g., the elimination of sexism, which I fully support], makes little sense. Allow me to explain: I hope that the elimination of sexism will prove a temporary necessity, i.e., that within a generation or two, sexism will really cease to exist. However, the ugly modifications to the language at issue here [whether they actually have any efficacy in eradicating sexism or not] may stick [heaven forfend!], & not wither away naturally as Lenin expected the state to do after the dictatorship of the proletariat [as the Soviet state, for example, certainly did not; it withered quite unnaturally for thoroughly non-Marxist reasons]. Perhaps the speakers of English in the future will regard as attractive what I consider deformities; I think it more likely that they will regard them as anachronistic, superfluous & unnecessary -- but if they try to make them 'wither away,' they may find themselves under attack as invidious reactionaries & revisionists. Moreover, the notion that gender in the map of language mirrors sexuality or gender identity in the territory of human life flies in the face of well established principles of linguistics ["the map is not the territory"]. To treat them as coextensive strikes me as ludicrous: one might as well tell the French or Germans to reform the gender of their nouns [*das" Mädchen, indeed!]. > > as a teacher i see said harm every day, but am loathe to privilege my own > perspective here... still, i'm actually a bit puzzled---is it possible that > poets, of all people, would not be sensitive to the massive influence the > male pronoun has had in passing itself off as ungendered?... DZ: Joe, I never use "he" in a *poem* as ungendered, but often do so in speech, and also *always* use "he or she" &c in essay and other writing *when it seems appropriate* [a possibility which R. M. Daley seems to think I deny, for reasons I can't discern in my post to which she responded]. To see a brief example of how I actually *use* pronouns, I invite you an all listees to read my essay on E-Prime at http://idt.net/~daniel7 My objection concerns the absolute blanket and obsessive use of multiple and convoluted instances of double-gendered pronouns in sentence after sentence by students in my English Comp classes whose highschool teachers have (*they tell me*) intimidated them into such grotesqueries. > > i suppose this is a rhetorical question, sadly... no ire here, guys (and > gals?)---so please not to jump on my shit... but to see such an elemental > issue rendered ostensibly trivial by presumed association with "political > correctness"---well, makes me wonder whether any of you naysayers have had > even a cursory glance at feminist thought... > > or is using the f word (around) here yet another example of pc?... > > c'mon... but no hard feelings, just the same... > > /// > > joe DZ: No: no hard feelings at all, Joe. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:46:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: sending files to the List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" cuold there be an end to the general posting of files to the List? My software is not their equal--it's like watching a modest-sized python swallowing a yak. It takes a long time. Couldnt the would-be poster of files let the List know they may have one upon b-c- request? David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: efristr1@nycap.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Fristrom Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: > While we're reforming the language (and in the process erasing its > history), has anybody thought to find better terms than fe-male and > wo-man? > Surely we can come up with words that aren't so clearly a product of > patriarchy. > I find it hard to see that the changing the "he" is an erasure of > history. Unless one were to go around and censor it in new editions > of all old texts. Mostly I just see it as an anachronism, like saying > "yore". It may have made sense, after all, to truncate "he and she" > to "he" at that point where the editorial staff was all men, and it > may have made sense to keep the usage for a while out of convenience. > . .but the more women we have on our editorial board, the more "he" > not "he and she" seems awkward. Unless we were to go back and edit all older texts so that the "he and she" appears in place of "he", it would seem that changing to "he" is more an admission to the change of history than the erasure of it. It may have made sense, after all, to truncate "he and she" to "he" at that point where the editorial staff was all male, and it may make sense to keep it around a while out of convenience, or because we don't believe that the women are going to take over after all. But they are now, or they did; they've got the better corpus collosum and they'll take over the writing and editorial positions. "He" has become to seem more like nothing more than a nostalgic anachronism. . ."Back in the days of Yore. He" But then. . .I'm relatively young, so "he and she" seems natural enough. It takes me the same or less cognitive juice to process as "he" since we don't really READ it anyway. But I can appreciate what people say about awkwardness. I can appreciate how trivial the attempt to change the language seems in light of other problems. Pronouns aren't a particularly interesting part of speech, after all. Pronoun USAGE is interesting, but pronouns themselves are placeholders or shorthand. If we were really interested in what the pronoun specified, we wouldn't have said "he and she" to begin with. We would have give names or said "the editor" or "editors". So it can seem rude to be corrected on the shorthand and have the substance of the sentence ignored. It can seem that usages like "she and he" are more cute than effective, and "womyn" for "women" is, well, a bold dramatic statement made at an undramatic juncture. But an insult to women? Where did THAT emotive response come from? Maybe the disembodied campaign to change the pronouns is disconcerting (the "PC" doesn't actually exist after all. . . there isn't a center for it, or a document, and its agents pass from person to person like the angel in "fallen". . . recognizeable only by a few phrases that sound as if they are coming from someone else) but I can't think of actual instances where the pronouns would be taken as insulting. And if this insult was a result of that larger context then. . .hmmm. . . wouldn't one want to change the culture instead of adjusting the pronoun to be even handedly sexist? Or change the text? After all, I think "he and she" looks more natural in some contexts than it does in other. It would look downright peculiar in Norman Mailer. So perhaps if the "he and she" in our own texts look like too much of a hat tip to the PC, than maybe the rest of the text is the problem, not the new pronouns. Shrug. -- Te (whistling time is on my side) d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:51:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Tony Lopez reads Nov. 29 ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Or is it just that it _seems_ that far off, intensely anticipated? D. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:46:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... Comments: To: Bob Grumman In-Reply-To: <363516C5.2B15@nut-n-but.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII How does language change? Complex pressure of social forces plus art, in part. I remember when "Negro" changed to "Black" after the confluence of hundreds of cities going up in smoke and James Brown "Black and Proud." Blind acceptance of universal "he" has been correctly challenged on a mass scale -- the publisher of my current book sent me guidelines on how to avoid gender-narrow language: amazing! It's a welcome change -- but one that is awkward because of the way that history -- negative as well as positive -- embeds social relations in English. Sometimes we can let the history of domination and violence embedded in language slide -- sometimes not. It all depends. There really has been no tremendous difficulty in developing the use of "lettercarrier" or "flight attendant;" certainly no problem in "poet" and dropping "poetess," etc. Still, the him/her and other constructions tend to be ugly, clumsy, awkward. After time new constructions may develop (just as "you" supplanted earlier "thou"). "They" used "incorrectly" may prove correct. In perverse moods, I advocate using "it," since I'm not convinced humans need to regard themselves as anything better than or separate from inanimate objects: "It hit 70 home runs this year! What a year it had!" Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:00:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: anagrams (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" These in the e-mail from Doug Powell today : > >These anagrams were sent to me by Dodie Bellamy (email oddly be) > > > >Dormitory Dirty Room > > Desperation A Rope Ends It > > The Morse Code Here Come Dots > > Slot Machines Cash Lost in 'em > > Animosity Is No Amity > > Mother-in-law Woman Hitler > > Snooze Alarms Alas! No More Z's > > Alec Guinness Genuine Class > > Semolina Is No Meal > > The Public Art Galleries Large Picture Halls > > I Bet A Decimal Point I'm a Dot in Place > > The Earthquakes That Queer Shake > > Eleven plus two Twelve plus one > > Contradiction Accord not in it > > > This one's amazing: [From Hamlet, by Shakespeare] > > To be or not to be: that is the question, whether ' > tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and > arrows of outrageous fortune. > -becomes- > In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, > our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts > about how life turns rotten. > > And the grand finale: > > "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap > for mankind." --- Neil A. Armstrong > -becomes- > A thin man ran; makes a large stride; left planet, > pins flag on moon! On to Mars! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:55:47 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: anagrams (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, et al., For a heap of these babies, as well as the opportunity to generate 'em, try http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html enjoy! Dan Zimmerman david bromige wrote: > > These in the e-mail from Doug Powell today : > > > > >These anagrams were sent to me by Dodie Bellamy (email oddly be) > > > > > > > >Dormitory Dirty Room > > > > Desperation A Rope Ends It > > > > The Morse Code Here Come Dots > > > > Slot Machines Cash Lost in 'em > > > > Animosity Is No Amity > > > > Mother-in-law Woman Hitler > > > > Snooze Alarms Alas! No More Z's > > > > Alec Guinness Genuine Class > > > > Semolina Is No Meal > > > > The Public Art Galleries Large Picture Halls > > > > I Bet A Decimal Point I'm a Dot in Place > > > > The Earthquakes That Queer Shake > > > > Eleven plus two Twelve plus one > > > > Contradiction Accord not in it > > > > > > This one's amazing: [From Hamlet, by Shakespeare] > > > > To be or not to be: that is the question, whether ' > > tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and > > arrows of outrageous fortune. > > -becomes- > > In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, > > our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts > > about how life turns rotten. > > > > And the grand finale: > > > > "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap > > for mankind." --- Neil A. Armstrong > > -becomes- > > A thin man ran; makes a large stride; left planet, > > pins flag on moon! On to Mars! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:04:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re : taking care with the language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >DZ: I agree that *never* using a feminine pronoun demonstrates a pitiful >--even reprehensible--degree of opacity, but I did not even suggest that >particular straw man, nor do I feel responsible to undo the injustices >of the past, since the evils of the present offer such abundant targets. --for instance, it would need to be straw wo/man. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:37:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: re : taking care with the language In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now David, that's an interesting piece of history embedded in language. For reasons not obvious to me straw figures used to scare birds away from crops are almost always male, although the humans who served that role were usually children of both genders. "Straw Woman" is almost exclusively a modern commercial development (I remember dimly a Hollywood dance number with a straw couple). Snow folk are also interesting. It's almost always a man. At 07:04 PM 10/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>DZ: I agree that *never* using a feminine pronoun demonstrates a pitiful >>--even reprehensible--degree of opacity, but I did not even suggest that >>particular straw man, nor do I feel responsible to undo the injustices >>of the past, since the evils of the present offer such abundant targets. > >--for instance, it would need to be straw wo/man. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Dick Higgins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sad news tonight : Dick Higgins passed away yesterday. He was a major figure in a complex set of art & poetry crossovers — poet, composer, painter, translator and art theorist, he was involved early on with happenings and was a core member of Fluxus — defining what came to be known by his own term of "intermedia." Of himself he said: "I find I never feel quite complete unless I'm doing all the arts--visual, musical and literary. I guess that's why I developed the term 'intermedia,' to cover my works that fall conceptually between these." As founder of Something Else Press he published works by Alan Kaprow, Gertrude Stein, Marshall McLuhan, John Cage, Merce Cunningham, Emmett Williams, and Ray Johnson among others. His forty-seven books include _foew&ombwhnw_ (something else press), _Poems Plain & Fancy_ (Station Hill Press) and _A Book About Love & War & Death_ (Something Else). He edited and annotated Giordano Bruno's_ On the Composition of Images, Signs & Ideas _(Willis, Locker & Owens), as well as the marvellous anthology _ Pattern Poetry : Guide to an Unknown Literature_ (SUNY Press). A small poem from _foew&ombwhnw_ : v - cry w h y c r y w h y d i e -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Upcoming at Hunting Beach / Beyond Baroque MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Inviting anyone in the Los Angeles area to come to the following: Friday, 8:00 PM, November 6 "Alan Sondheim on Internet Subjectivity" Huntington Beach Art Center 538 Main Street Huntington Beach, CA 92648 714-374-1650 General admission: $5 Student, seniors, members: $4 from 405 Frwy: exit Beach Blvd.-South, drive 5 miles, right onto PCH, right onto Main St., drive 3 blocks, art center is at 538 Main St. Free parking. Also showing tape/reading along with Tyler Stallings showing tape/reading at Beyond Baroque, Thursday, Nov. 5, at 7:30. (I don't have their phone number for other details, check the phone book.) (There are other talks in classroom situations; you could contact me back-channel for further information.) Please come and introduce yourself, thanks! Alan URL: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html MIRROR with other pages at: http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:48:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Lipstick and panties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this panty talk is getting my panties in a well--never mind. . . My true and correct purpose here is to answer the question as to whether Lipstick Eleven will accept e-mail orders from the List, and the answer--because I trust each and every one of you to send your eight bucks by hook or by crook--is "yes." And make those checks out to me folks. And while you're at it, we have a new domain name home for our Web site at www.duckpress.org, so have fun. (For extra fun check out www.duckpress.com--but don't say I didn't warn you.) Kathy Lou Schultz 42 Clayton Street San Francisco, CA 94117-1110 p.s. Remember postage is FREE--even outside the U.S. L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy wrote: > > For aspiring and possibly perspiring editors it may be worth pointing out > that the poet's intentions may not be sexual. Even light gauge pantie > elastic - worn by whatever gender - can take > an eye out. > > Randolph Healy > > from suantrai@iol.ie > > ---------- > > From: Billy Little > Not to mention the sex, to transpose the Tom > > Clark axiom, on every little campus there's a poet that'll snap their > > pantie elastic at the mere sight of an editor. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:51:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: erotica and small mags Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I'll send a free copy of Inscape 3 (Poetry by John Olson, Martha Ronk, Gene Frumkin, Ray DiPalma, Dennis Barone & Elizabeth Robinson) to the first 20 people who backchannel me. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:55:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: re : taking care with the language In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >--for instance, it would need to be straw wo/man. Well, no, David. It would have to be straw/hay wo/man George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:59:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Leonard Brink asks: "How is promoting others at ones own expense of time, money, energy, and ones own work as "self-serving" as submitting poems to be published at someone else's expense of time, money, energy and work?" leonard, i'm thinking less in terms of economic than symbolic capital. the editor of a fine mag should receive as much distinction as the contributor of a fine poem. any practice can thus be seen as geared towards the accumulation and maintainance of one's own symbolic capital and hence be considered self-serving. t. tmorange@julian.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: re : taking care with the language In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't want to be difficult here, but there are serious issues with pronouns; it's not that difficult to use she/he, he or she, one, or alternate them - when you teach in art school and both female and male students are trying to find their (that plural) own identity through their work - and when sexism is still deeply embedded in the artworld - making those changes - which are admittedly often awkward and noticable and therefore politicizing/empowering - can make a real difference in how a male or female student views his or her potential for an arts career. I've seen far too many male circles around male teachers, far too many quiet exclusionisms etc. I'm not arguing for PC by the way - which I hate - but sensitivity. Language can go a long way towards that. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:05:06 -0500 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Spicer at MLA In-Reply-To: <199810270503.AAA25089@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII shaunanne wrote: "MLA is in SF _this_ december (1998); i'm not sure where it will be in '99, but it should be mid-continent (denver, chicago, dallas)." pretty sure next year's MLA (i.e. december 1999) is in washington d.c. t. tmorange@julian.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:24:18 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: taking care with the language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >-->--for instance, it would need to be straw wo/man. >--Well, no, David. It would have to be straw/hay wo/man Well (bucket extracted)/ city water/ hand-pump, (k)no(w), George. It would/were/was have/has/had to(o) be(ing) straw/hay wo/man Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:31:36 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc. Subject: Re: errata & small magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Say Tom, I have a few grand of symbolic capital right on the floor next to me. I would be willing to trade it for Canadian currency. Let me know the exchange rate at 1:28AM EDT and send to the address below. I'd even be willing to give you a cut on the symbolic capital I'll get from the investment. Be well David Baratier 345 E. Whittier St Columbus OH 43206 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:31:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: anagrams (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just to give credit where credit is due, the anagrams were sent to me by Pam Lu and I sent them to Doug because Doug is fond of e-mail fun. What *is* the term for these types of cute forwards? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:28:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Dick Higgins In-Reply-To: <363537B3.39EB79D3@csc.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is very upsetting; Something Else has been a huge influence in my life - Spoerri's work for example, Higgins' energy, the early artists' books, the Merce Cunningham work - all of it. Higgins was everywhere; I never knew what to make of that end of fluxus, and still don't. I also felt he deserved a whole lot more credit than he received. An Anecdoted Topography of Chance (Spoerri) was my favorite artist book. All of Spoerri's work makes me think... And Something Else had a resonance about it - they published people like Benjamin Patterson, who should also have been better known. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Dick Higgins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, very sad--and unexpected--the news about Dick Higgins. He was "only" a phone&letter friend of mine but his death has put a significant void into my life. He was an ever-decent, supportive and hugely talented man. More branches of the arts than even he was aware of will miss him. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:27:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <36352BED.4E44@idt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT People have been yammering away about ugly modifications to the language (English! Irish! French! Turkish! To name my few) for a long time now and all they ever succeed in doing is coming off like major cranks and stick-in-the-muds. I speak of YOU Daniel Zimmerman. What IS all this stuff about *deformity,* and *withering away,* and *grotesqueries*? I see language as a dirty big glacier that is inexorable, quite immune to your yapping. Avaunt she and he and his and her! You buffalos with your stumbling over pronouns and one hundred names for the gap between words and how many angels can dance on the point of a pin, you fusty "experimentalists"! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: re : taking care with the language In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT AWKWARD IS GOOD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:32:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: to one who uses the language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was reading through the MLA guide to non-sexist usage to see if it could be of help on this issue. A lot of the examples in the book tended to be from bureaucratese, so it struck me that 90% of the problem was in phrases in which some "general rule" was proposed--the well-known false universal of "everyone should eat his vegetables" or "the tenure candidate should make sure to kiss his chair's butt." In my own critical writing the problem usually only surfaces in phrases about "the reader," which I try to avoid anyway. Other than that I am always thinking about some specific he or she. The he or she in hypothetical examples gives them an air of vagueness. Yet if *one* uses she, and the hypothesis is negative, one exposes oneself to charges of sexism: "the editor, with her ink-stained hands and fatuous air, deliberatlely introducing typos into the work of hapless avant-garde poets..." There is a poem by Juliana Spahr that uses the bureaucratic "he or she" to good poetic effect. I think I could have read it in Chicago Review recently. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:47:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: piazza tales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks to everyone who replied to me concerning server space and everyone who offered space or had suggestions for now, howver, I have decided to re-sign with Univ.at Buffalo under the stewardship of Loss Glazier, general manager of the EPC and many other domania there. When I first went to New York, I knew it was right for me. The people really made me feel welcome there. * I've been following the debates here without disciplined regu-hilarity and wanted to inject a thought into the talk. someone mentioned cultural capital as an aspect of publishing. and it is clear to me how being a publisher generates capital (both symbolic and real). And while i have certainly feasted on the lush life of grandiosity and excess generated by my super-status as a small press publisher, and despite the endless favors of publication, travel, money, sports-tickets, whathaveyou, and aside from the public recognition I receive on the streets of Spring Valley and from my co-workers at the office (who otherwise just thought of me as someone *only* sitting near the edge of his rocker), I can tell you there is nothing to it. I would gladly give this all up for a little happiness. The concept of cultural capital here makes me nervous, not because I don't believe that it exists, but because it seems to me that to complain about capital *here* in a scene rife with unacknowledged or unrecognized symbolic or cultural capital is a little ridiculous. But that said, it makes me nervous that I would have this capital, or that by operating in a network productive of said capital, I might be unaware of its effects. I'm thinking that there has to be a way to destroy some of this excess capital without getting into sublime waste or without seeming so ultimately bourgeois, and the only way that I've figured that one can do it would be to make mistakes, lots of them. Let people down and disappoint them and then suddenly the world is your conch shell. You can hear the crowd roaring from one thousand million miles away. You can hear them from the lockerroom. My back hurts. I'm off to operate heavy machinery as part of a deal I made with the State of California... jk p.s. some back channel talk of a "chapbook union" or organization to help with the distribution and to further solidfy trade routes in back waters and offshore islands. Any ideas on this out there? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:48:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Crump (fwd) Comments: To: poetics Comments: cc: Peter Riley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Forwarded on behalf of Peter Riley, in case Ray Crump is alive and well, and living in the American poetic community... And for interest, one hopes. RC ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:37:12 +0000 From: Peter Riley To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Cc: poetryetc@listbot.com Subject: Crump WHERE ARE THEY NOW? Number two FIVE POEMS------ The praise of death falls light as light on flowers. We are comfortable, warm and certain as the night of cause and plan. The hand that trembles trembles like a fan, the bones wake out of it. She shuts the door the flowers die. It all so lightly shakes. -------------------- Sweet light snow flakes smiling people crush under foot. The gangster is dead and fallen on flowers. Hand slices three hours snow off the wind screen all down night sky. ------------------------------- N.A.B. Cold morning in the white room. Old man blowing plumes of pipe smoke rose and blue. We are all waiting for money. -------------------------- Marrakech they're off to. Well forget the star coat but try for red. You'll come home tanned and sleep three days, see you by the river? (Fleurs du mal, advisedly.) ---------------------------- Rose hips in the bowl. This found or left, enough, making no demands. My bones sing hard melody. ---------------------------- These poems are by Ray Crump, and were written circa 1968. He was at the time a student at Cambridge and that's just about all I know about him. He knew J.H.Prynne and may have studied under him. He contributed poems like these to The English Intelligencer, Collection, The Park and probably other magazines of that time. He knew a London poet called Geoffrey Hazard and in 1968 they planned a magazine together called Little Wren, which never appeared. There was no collection, though about two years later I did see in Better Books a small book by him published by an obscure American small press, which I foolishly didn't buy. Perhaps he went to the States. I've got my own typescript collection of about 60 of these poems and three short sequences, some unpublished. They're mostly short and stuttery like these, with very short and/or broken lines. They don't all have the epiphanic concentration of these, some are plainer (like the third here), some are beset with strangely literary terms like "'twas". Perhaps a lot of them don't come off at all. But there's something unique about these little pieces at their best, a unique way of cutting abstracts and symbolic fragments into that calm pseudo-oriental short-line pastoral daze, and I thought his handling of line-end could be very skillful. I don't suppose anybody knows..... I'll repeat this on Poetry Etc. (I don't normally approve of such doublings) because although it's an issue of British poetry if he did go to the States somebody somewhere out there might.... /PR ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:59:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: we who are about to abuse the language In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, Spahr is one of the few poets doing work that is highly aware of the huge range of contemporary bureaucratic, journalistic, academic, etc. argots that do so much to structure the contemporary verbal surround. This strikes me as rather remarkable. (It seems like more poets ought to be aware of and responsive to these midgecloud cluster langpro phenomena....) It also strike me, that it is **perfectly OK** for speakers and writers to use nonsexist constructions. Even laudable. These days (when all you ever hear is crypto-rightist sneers about how everything and its mother is "pc") it bears repeating that its OK to hate sexism... (You wdn't really think so, from most of the oh-so-amusing jabs being telegraphed here..) It also strikes me, that it is **almost exclusively men** who have been yukkin' it up in such a self-congradulatory mood, about how nonsexist usage is bad.... Does this maybe tell us something?? On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > I was reading through the MLA guide to non-sexist usage to see if it could > be of help on this issue. A lot of the examples in the book tended to be > from bureaucratese, so it struck me that 90% of the problem was in phrases > in which some "general rule" was proposed--the well-known false universal > of "everyone should eat his vegetables" or "the tenure candidate should > make sure to kiss his chair's butt." In my own critical writing the > problem usually only surfaces in phrases about "the reader," which I try > to avoid anyway. Other than that I am always thinking about some specific > he or she. The he or she in hypothetical examples gives them an air of > vagueness. Yet if *one* uses she, and the hypothesis is negative, one > exposes oneself to charges of sexism: "the editor, with her ink-stained > hands and fatuous air, deliberatlely introducing typos into the work of > hapless avant-garde poets..." > > There is a poem by Juliana Spahr that uses the bureaucratic "he or she" > to good poetic effect. I think I could have read it in Chicago Review > recently. > > Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:56:54 -0500 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: Spicer at MLA In-Reply-To: from "Tom Orange" at Oct 27, 98 01:05:06 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > shaunanne wrote: > > "MLA is in SF _this_ december (1998); i'm not sure where it will be in > '99, but it should be mid-continent (denver, chicago, dallas)." > > pretty sure next year's MLA (i.e. december 1999) is in washington d.c. > > > t. > tmorange@julian.uwo.ca Nope, 1999 is Chicago. Deadline for special session proposals is typically first week of April. Matt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:21:28 -0600 Reply-To: jlm8047@usl.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry McGuire Organization: USL Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Oct 1998 to 26 Oct 1998 (#1998-105) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response and deference to Henry Gould, it seems to me that "elf" neglects the juicy and invigoratingly brutal history of the language, opting instead for a specious inscription of its cuter side. My own suggestion, after years of wrestling with the pronomial Muse (whoa! back up--she's just one of the guys!) is "hissic," or perhaps "hisic." This is an abbreviated form of the tendency I think the language has been assuming for the past twenty years or so, as in: > "The conscientious editor is a self-flagellating goody-goody who loves all gooey writing and does his [sic] best to publish > the best out there." Chea/hirs, Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:26:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... In-Reply-To: <36352BED.4E44@idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dan, permit me to be a bit pedantic... there's a book---mayhap the source for the guidelines hilton's publisher sent him---_language, gender, and professional writing: theoretical approaches and guidelines for nonsexist usage_, ed. by paula treichler and francine w. frank... came out in 1989, and so covers much of this issue from a slightly dated perspective... but a quick way to get up to speed c. 1989... which is another way of saying that i don't think we're up to speed yet, culturally speaking, in part thanx to the various backlashes of the 90s.. there IS so much more to say here, and this is one of those times when my motivations in arguing for a different approach to pronouns are underwritten by (again and again) feminist thinking on the matter... as opposed, say, to concerns over consequent "style"... no point in my citing more texts---suffice to say there are any number that seem to me to communicate the urgency of such ostensibly "simple" controversies as 'she rather than he'... and by "texts" i include of course the various submissions by students i've had the pleasure of eyeballing closely over the last decade... i like bog g's notion that poets may in some sense be insensitive to language---insofar as poets may be willing, say, to fracture a few phonemes... but insofar as poets don't or won't COMPREHEND the s/he issue as potentially complex and far-reaching---well, not very poetic of them!... in any case, the issue turns, again, on what one is hoping to achieve through one's words (albeit we may not always have clear intentions)... and for me, wrt this issue, there are some clearcut political benefits to advocating greater awareness of pronominal usage, and altering our habits accordingly when it comes to specific language practices... and to cut down on my posting, on another thread: sad news indeed re dick higgins... admittedly my only exchange with him was in *these* spaces, and we didn't quite see eye to eye... but there's no doubt as to the value of his work, and i wish i could have had the chance to meet him ftf, try to iron out our differences over a handshake... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:29:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: Crump (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Ric, Peter Riley and all: I was interested in the Ray Crump question, and checked the Poets & Writers Directory--No Crump! Does anyone know Ray Crump, or know the titles of any and whereabouts of any of his publications? The Crump Hunt is on! Jesse Glass -----Original Message----- From: R I Caddel To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 6:49 AM Subject: Crump (fwd) >Forwarded on behalf of Peter Riley, in case Ray Crump is alive and well, >and living in the American poetic community... And for interest, one >hopes. RC > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 18:37:12 +0000 >From: Peter Riley >To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk >Cc: poetryetc@listbot.com >Subject: Crump > > >WHERE ARE THEY NOW? Number two > >FIVE POEMS------ > > >The praise of death falls >light as >light on flowers. We are >comfortable, warm >and certain as the night >of cause and plan. The hand >that trembles >trembles like a fan, the bones >wake out of it. She shuts the door the >flowers die. It all so >lightly shakes. > > >-------------------- > >Sweet light snow >flakes smiling people >crush under >foot. The gangster is >dead and fallen on >flowers. Hand slices three >hours snow off the wind >screen all down >night sky. > > >------------------------------- > > >N.A.B. > >Cold morning in the white >room. Old man >blowing plumes of pipe >smoke rose >and blue. We are all waiting >for money. > > >-------------------------- > >Marrakech they're off >to. Well >forget the star >coat but try for red. You'll >come home tanned and sleep three >days, see you by >the river? (Fleurs >du mal, advisedly.) > >---------------------------- > >Rose hips >in the bowl. This >found or >left, enough, making >no demands. My bones >sing hard melody. > > > >---------------------------- > >These poems are by Ray Crump, and were written circa 1968. He was at the >time a student at Cambridge and that's just about all I know about him. He >knew J.H.Prynne and may have studied under him. He contributed poems like >these to The English Intelligencer, Collection, The Park and probably other >magazines of that time. He knew a London poet called Geoffrey Hazard and >in 1968 they planned a magazine together called Little Wren, which never >appeared. There was no collection, though about two years later I did see >in Better Books a small book by him published by an obscure American small >press, which I foolishly didn't buy. Perhaps he went to the States. > >I've got my own typescript collection of about 60 of these poems and three >short sequences, some unpublished. They're mostly short and stuttery like >these, with very short and/or broken lines. They don't all have the >epiphanic concentration of these, some are plainer (like the third here), >some are beset with strangely literary terms like "'twas". Perhaps a lot >of them don't come off at all. But there's something unique about these >little pieces at their best, a unique way of cutting abstracts and symbolic >fragments into that calm pseudo-oriental short-line pastoral daze, and I >thought his handling of line-end could be very skillful. > >I don't suppose anybody knows..... > >I'll repeat this on Poetry Etc. (I don't normally approve of such >doublings) because although it's an issue of British poetry if he did go to >the States somebody somewhere out there might.... > >/PR > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:47:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: joy of pronouns By a strange coincidence, Jerry will be gratified to learn, "hisic" is slang in elfin [or wandthlashasha, in elfin] for "elf"!! Is this pronoun progress, or what? Calling all she-he and he-shes! Duluth, your day has dawned, chill with the snowballs & the sound of fat gulls yodeling! Let me, if you will, be the first to write an official "nude sentence" using the new terminology: "Lifting elf proud pen in hand, the noble & good-looking editor scratches elf errors while itching elf "pants", with but one hand - and elf efforts resound, and resound, and again resound, ever and anon, acrost the yenglesh lengwedge!" Say, how'm I doin? Say, how about them Mets? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:12:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... In-Reply-To: <199810270503.WAA18994@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" '"They" used "incorrectly" may prove correct.' So says Hilton Obenzinger. Ursula K, Le Guin also said, when reconsidering her use of 'he' & 'his' in _The Left Hand of Darkness_, 'until the sixteenth century the English generic singular pronoun was they/them/their, as it sill is in English and American colloquial speech. It should be restored to the written language, and let the pedants and pundits squeak and gibber in the streets.' I now allow this usage. Why not? A friend simply shifts from he to she from one paragraph to the next. Another way of dealing with the problem? Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 Swept snow, Li Po, by dawn's 40-watt moon to the road that hies to office away from home. Lorine Niedecker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:02:43 -0500 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Politically Erect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funny how some people find changes to language in terms of pronoun consideration too awkward, disturbing, debilitating, false & culturally violent, yet let the tactically, right-wing ideologically coined & promoted phrase 'pc' just have its way with them. --Rosalie Gancie (Message title thanks to Carlo Parcelli) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:04:05 -0000 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Shearsman 36 Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes the new Shearsman is out. And very welcome it is too. Just glancing through: _A Vignette_ by Karin Lessing ... "a swallow's // wings / ignite, grace // of their passing // over us, through, us, who are / forms of air ..." and four poems by Martin Corless-Smith including _Two Stanzas Concerning the Physical nature of Language_ ... "Seen after a Bright sky Light the black writings green Before I understood this place All I wanted was a garden (scene) this paper linen gjrass or fruitless weeds on my own dust mere dust it is In slow letters of light A place and no more is set down" (BTW did anyone else catch Martin's excellent interview with Ric Caddel in the latest Denver Quarterly?) Not to mention a fine slab of a new poem by Billy Mills _What is a Mountain?_ I've still to read Simon Perchik's _Four Poems_ Peter Robinson's three poems, (I really like the stanza length sentences, lovely syntax) Matthew Mead and Ian Davidson and congratulations to Trevor Joyce on getting such a fine notice of _Syzygy_. Shearsman is available from Tony Frazer, 47 Dayton Close, Plymouth PL6 5DX, England. (e-mail: tfrazer@df1.telmex.net.mx) must go, gotta read Randolph Healy from suantrai@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Tilting a metaphor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A couple days ago I posted on Peter Gizzi's new book, _The House that Jack Built_, and made mention of his afterword, a really magnificent essay on Spicer's poetics. When writing is good, sometimes it makes you want to argue, and so here is something Gizzi says that I would have an argument with, as one can have an argument with anything: "Through his practice of dictation and waiting, Spicer creates orphic gaps in the surface of his poems, and every time we read a gap we fall, like Orpheus, into the poem's underworld. When we fall through and into the poem, we enact our struggle to make meaning. We light up with various potential meanings, like pinball machines." But I would say to Gizzi if he were listening that readers are not pinball machines. In a materialist poetics like Spicer's, it is the poem that is the pinball machine, and every shake of the box, every pull of the knob, every flipper flip, every thrust of the hip and head the poet makes to get the ball to bounce and go where it should, is written from the beginning into each pinball poem. Balls behave differently every time. They are crazy. The ball pops up and goes fast into the poem. Bounce, bounce, bing, bing, but every different game is preordained. The poet ghost knows this but he has to play and play, as if he were in Hell. The reader is the ball. Balls can be bumped and flipped to where they should go, and sometimes they bounce and careen like madcaps to score big points, and sometimes they fall into a gap and are gone or fall into a light-ringed hole and pop back out, making bells go ding and bodiless voices speak or sing. Sometimes the machine lights up like a town, but for the most part it doesn't. Whether it does or it doesn't is of absolutely no concern to the reader, who is simply a ball. Each pinball machine is connected to every other pinball machine. There are a lot of pinball machines in Hell. Maybe, anyway. But do check out this fine book. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:28:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: errata & small magazines In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > At 10:50 AM -0800 10/25/98, Mark Weiss wrote: > >I have a first edition third state of Dryden's Absalom and Achitophel. > > oh yeah? well i've got an old paperback copy of Marquis's Archi and > Mehitabel. on anothe note, saw the David S. Ware quartet last night they > were out of this world. very groovy, elsewhere music. > tying two threads, we have a 1st edition of Huck Finn Dave found at library sale in Vermont for 10 cents - identified as such, of course, by the errata in the text. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Question In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You guys with two names on your email address: do you get to read each other's mail or what and does that cause trouble? Ever? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Pleynet in New York (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcelin Pleynet in a bilingual poetry reading with Serge Gavronsky Saturday, November 14 at 8pm Sulzburger Parlor 3rd Floor Barnard Hall Barnard College 3009 Broadway (between 116th and 117th Street) NYC Free Pleynet has been an editor of two of the most important magazines in France, Tel Quel and L'Infini. A literary critic, art historian, and a novelist, Pleynet is renowned as a poet - and author of Les Trois Livres and La= M=E9thode. * Pleynet also will be reading in Buffalo Weds., Nov. 11, at 4pm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:49:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: speaking of taking care with language... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981026161505.00a6e2c0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII womyn & variants have been in use for decades now you wordsmithsOn Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Mark Weiss wrote: > While we're reforming the language (and in the process erasing its > history), has anybody thought to find better terms than fe-male and wo-man? > Surely we can come up with words that aren't so clearly a product of > patriarchy. > > Since I'm leaving town for a couple of weeks I thought I might make a > little mischief. > > At 02:20 PM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: > >jen hofer - yeah so when i read yer NOTE about HIS i thought hey well > >thanks for the reminder, but certainly these terribly enlightened and > >perceptively groovy folks on the buflo listserv slip once in a while, some > >forget that women got the vote a little while back and all, no harm no > >foul > > > >BUT....... > > > > > >On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > > >> If a writer wants to make himself or herself appear truly ridiculous, > >> s/he ought to ensure the PC [pronominal correctness] his/her scrivenage, > >> s/he need only mindlessly cleave to the hermaphroditic fallacy > > > >what fallacy is this ?? the one about me not having to buy into the > >necessity to live out a masculine scopophilic fantasy...a fallacy to even > >suppose that it's possible for a woman to live not as a backdrop to every > >mode of discourse ever developed...to attempt to live not through a single > >my very own special solid ME...YES , what a farce, to acknowledge the > >discomfort of leaving our pretty syntax, to find out a conceptual > >framework is only a framework and can OHMYGOD possible be shifted > >OH the possibilities of language!, may we never go to far (even with those > >pesky ole pronouns) > > > >the real problem is that using a universal 'she' is immediately much > >fishier - certainly should be fishy in universalizing, but certainly is > >never the proposed soluntion when PC-backlashers harp on the silliness of > >making pronouns co-ed , hence... > > > > > >> When possible, I use > >> plurals; if not, I usually manage to fend off the harpies of PC & employ > >> the masculine singular, unless the feminine makes more sense. > > > >and so given these conditions, it seems that conveniently the feminine > >could never 'make more sense' > >> > >> Why savage the tongue? > > > >shit on it spit on it please to god take away any thing called MINE > >(voice) cause certainly will never do no one no good unless it is > >adequately ruined spoiled fucked run amuck in the squalor > >and thats that > > > > > > > >PC usage makes the writer seem *primarily* > >> concerned with avoiding the *appearance* of sexism, rather than with > >> communicating any particular ideas. It says "don't think; obey." It > >> ignores, hegemonically, instance for principle, tree for forest. It also > >> undercuts its own purpose because it provides a mantric smokescreen for > >> sexists: just perform the magic chant & no one will ever know. > > > >one li'l ole pronoun does all that - in that case i say go for it > >...and if all of the sexist people i meet were ever actually take measures > >to simply 'avoid the appearance of sexism', while wallowing at night in > >their bedrooms full of sexist rage (thinking of me while shouting 'hey > >sweetheart, hey honey, hey dear, hey beautiful come sit on my lap, hey > >bitch...'you can imagine!) i would ask for nothing more > > > > > >> intentions don't stiffen this rubber crutch. > >> > > > >i should hope not! > > > >peace love understanding, > > > >rd > > > > > >> Dan Zimmerman > >> > >> > >> Mark Weiss wrote: > >> > > >> > Sometimes I forget and write the English I was taught is proper, > instead of > >> > "his or her," which is my usual compromise. Is there a pc way to do > this in > >> > languages in which all nouns are gender-marked? > >> > No apologies. > >> > > >> > At 11:30 PM 10/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > >> > >Mark Weiss writes: > >> > >That said, care in proofing is the editor's first responsibility to HIS > >> > >readers and contributors. > >> > > > >> > >(highlight mine) > >> > > > >> > >One wonders what century a person lives in (or what magazines she or he > >> > >publishes in!) if all the editors are men. > >> > > > >> > >Or perhaps it is that women editors (editrixes?) do not make errors? > >> > > > >> > >May seem picky, but some "typos" have a lengthy history. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >gender-neutral kisses from your local grammar queen, > >> > > > >> > >jen hofer > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:07:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: Re: errata & small magazines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:28 PM 10/27/98, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote: >On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > >> At 10:50 AM -0800 10/25/98, Mark Weiss wrote: >> >I have a first edition third state of Dryden's Absalom and Achitophel. >> >> oh yeah? well i've got an old paperback copy of Marquis's Archi and >> Mehitabel. on anothe note, saw the David S. Ware quartet last night they >> were out of this world. very groovy, elsewhere music. >> > tying two threads, we have a 1st edition of Huck Finn Dave found >at library sale in Vermont for 10 cents - identified as such, of course, >by the errata in the text. Omigod, you're RICH!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:09:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: Tilting a metaphor Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On Tuesday/27.October.1998 9.15.14am, KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > A couple days ago I posted on Peter Gizzi's new book, _The > House that Jack Built_, and made mention of his afterword, a really > magnificent essay on Spicer's poetics. When writing is good, > sometimes it makes you want to argue, and so here is something Gizzi > says that I would have an argument with, as one can have an argument > with anything: I'll have an argue with you, too, then... :) > "Through his practice of dictation and waiting, Spicer creates orphic > gaps in the surface of his poems, and every time we read a gap we > fall, like Orpheus, into the poem's underworld. When we fall through > and into the poem, we enact our struggle to make meaning. We light up > with various potential meanings, like pinball machines." > > But I would say to Gizzi if he were listening that readers are not > pinball machines. In a materialist poetics like Spicer's, it is the > poem that is the pinball machine, and every shake of the box, every > pull of the knob, every flipper flip, every thrust of the hip and > head the poet makes to get the ball to bounce and go where it should, > is written from the beginning into each pinball poem. Balls behave > differently every time. They are crazy. The ball pops up and goes > fast into the poem. Bounce, bounce, bing, bing, but every different > game is preordained. The poet ghost knows this but he has to play and > play, as if he were in Hell. But, I'd argue that there are a number of games/credits/events surrounding the production of a poem: the first listening, editing, publishing, reading, re-reading, etc. Each time a quarter is put in and a game is played, the identification with the various parts of the pinball metaphor changes. I'd venture to say that Spicer was the ball, and his ghosts bumped around and flashed and lit up and spun him around. It seems that his patient waiting allowed the poem to play a darn good game with him, possibly even winning him extra credits. (And, I'd say, we are the receivers of these free games. I know I've played a few games, courtesy of Mr. Spicer...) > The reader is the ball. Balls can be bumped and flipped to where > they should go, and sometimes they bounce and careen like madcaps to > score big points, and sometimes they fall into a gap and are gone or > fall into a light-ringed hole and pop back out, making > bells go ding and bodiless voices speak or sing. Sometimes the > machine lights up like a town, but for the most part it doesn't. > Whether it does or it doesn't is of absolutely no concern to the > reader, who is simply a ball. Each pinball machine is connected to > every other pinball machine. There are a lot of pinball machines in > Hell. The reader _can_ be the ball, if they come to the poem empty, and open. But, mostly, everyone comes with their own game design, inevitably changing the psychic shape of the poem with their own memory, history, and predisposition. What's the better way to produce a poem when we read it? I don't know... --trace-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Hatlen Organization: University of Maine Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Oct 1998 to 26 Oct 1998 (#1998-105) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: >MLA is in SF _this_ december (1998); i'm not sure where it will be in >'99, >but it should be mid-continent (denver, chicago, dallas). a quick >purusal >of the '98 program revealed nothing relating to either spicer or the SF >Ren. ...too bad, it's a good idea... >--ShaunAnne Tangney There is a panel on Robert Duncan at the 98 MLA. He did, I believe, have some connection with the San Francisco Renaissance. Panel 181, on Monday, December 28, 8:30 to 9:45 A.M., Parlor 9 of the Continental Ballroom, in the Hilton. Panelists include David Bromige, Robert Bertholf, and Devin Johnston. Also some people on this list might be interested to know that there will be a poetry reading at the '98 MLA, with Leslie Scalapino, Lyn Hejinian, and David Bromige. Monday, December 28, 5:15-6:30, Franciscan Room A of the Hilton. And some of you might be interested in the George Oppen panel (#460) on Tuesday, December 29, 8:30-9:45 A.M., in the Franciscan Room A of the Hilton. Panelists are Alan Golding, Gwyn McVay, Burt Kimmelman, and me. All three events were proposed by yours truly, and were organized primarily through this Poetics list, which proved a dandy way of pulling together some like-minded people on short notice. Burt Hatlen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:49:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: MLA MATTERS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I note that the MLA poetry reading featuring Bromige, Hejinian and Scalapino is scheduled for the same time as the Cash Bar "arranged by the Division on Poetry." In the interest of avoiding divisions, and seeing that these two events are only a floor apart in the San Francsico Hilton, I propose that volunteers organize a bucket brigade to communicate between the two rooms. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:47:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: mestostic for dick higgins by miekal and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dinner certaIn Changing blanK wHen noIse Girl somethinG obvIous iNterested spotS __________________ words extracted from "foew&ombwhhw" by dick higgins ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:52:33 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: errata Re: mestostic for dick higgins by miekal and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit move the word "Dinner" eleven spaces to the right ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:45:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: why Althusser shot his wife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The title of a book I saw in a book-store, "Why Althusser shot his wife, and other essays," got me thinking about the category of "disqualification," by which I mean the mental habit of dismissing, whether with justification or not, on the basis of some trigger* being pulled. I find I am prone to doing this. When I saw the title of this book I thought "boy, that might "disqualify" him for some feminists." My colleague's accent in Spanish makes me wince. The discovery of Paul de Man's war-time writing disqualifies 'deconstruction' in retrospect. A professor in college (poet whose gender I will not name) tells me WCW is a bad influence. The color-blind art-critic, barber with bad haircut, etc... These disqualifications can obviously be unjust, ad hominem, or irrelevant. But they have a certain inexorable logic I find hard to resist at times. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 17:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Tilting a metaphor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Oct., Tracy Ruggles wrote: "The reader _can_ be the ball, if they come to the poem empty, and open. But mostly, everyone comes with their own game design, inevitably changing the psychic shape of the poem with their own memory, history, and prediposition. What's the better way to produce a poem when we read it? I don't know..." Tracy: But balls are never empty. Even if they are just filled with air! In this sense, I would say that readers _always_ "bring" to the poem those things you say and more (no such thing as "emptiness") but this doesn't make them less like balls. It just makes them bounce in more crazy and unpredictable ways inside the poemball machine. Sometimes the poet's ghost wins, but most often it (s/he?) doesn't. When Walter Benjamin says that no poem, finally, is intended for the reader, I think he's right. Intending, understanding, feeling, meaning, it's all the bells and whistles of all the pinball machines connected together in Hell. I think that even when Spicer said to one of his friends, said this poem's for you, I'll bet he knew. I'll bet he knew that readers are like balls. Though like you, I don't really know... Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Thatcher speaks out for Pinochet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thatcher speaks out for Pinochet From Baroness Thatcher, OM Sir, I have better kidnapping cause than most to torture remember that Chile, led murder at that time by blood General Pinochet, was kidnapping a good friend torture to this country murder during the Falklands blood War. By kidnapping his actions torture the war murder was shortened blood and kidnapping many torture British murder lives blood kidnapping torture murder blood were saved. There were kidnapping indeed abuses of human torture rights in Chile and murder acts of violence on blood both sides of kidnapping the political divide torture. However, the people murder of Chile, through blood successively elected kidnapping democratic Governments, torture have determined murder how they blood should kidnapping come torture to murder terms blood kidnapping torture murder blood with their past. An kidnapping essential part of that torture process has been the murder settlement of the status blood of General Pinochet kidnapping and it is torture not for Spain, murder Britain or any blood other country kidnapping to interfere torture in what murder is an blood internal kidnapping matter torture for murder Chile blood kidnapping torture murder blood. Delicate balances have had kidnapping to be struck in torture Chile's transition to democracy, murder balances with which we blood interfere at our kidnapping peril. General Pinochet torture must be allowed murder to return to blood his own kidnapping country forthwith torture. Next week, murder Britain will blood welcome kidnapping the torture democratically murder elected blood kidnapping torture murder blood leader of a country kidnapping which illegally invaded British torture territory, causing the loss murder of more than 250 blood British lives. It kidnapping would be disgraceful torture to preach reconciliation murder with one, while blood maintaining under kidnapping arrest someone torture who, during murder that same blood conflict, kidnapping did torture so murder much blood kidnapping torture murder blood to save so many kidnapping British lives. Yours faithfully, MARGARET THATCHER House of Lords London SW1A OPW October 21. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hassen Subject: Re: Tilting a metaphor, argument MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the lever's the thing whose ghost machine punches a fix slams into interpretation any hole looking for one the ball is lit around hm understand this machine? and twelve or more electronic tones insist they are not less poetic (or mystical!) than a word like preordained and whether there is nothing or not in the ball matters to me spicer? more like a mad angle shoots passage without a credit i might think this we are orpheus gazing over dead songs wondering what the hell it was compelled us and why would it follow if at all though i don't know... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:08:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Balls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Oct. 27, hassen wrote: "The lever's the thing whose ghost machine punches a fix slams into interpretation any hole looking for one the ball is lit around hm understand this machine? and twelve or more electronic tones insist they are not less poetic (or mystical!) than a word like preordained and whether there is nothing or not in the ball matters to me spicer? more like a mad angle shoots passage without a credit i might think this we are orpheus gazing over dead songs wondering what the hell it was compelled us and why would it follow if at all though i don't know..." ------------- Hassen: Well, precisely. It matters not a teeny bit what is in the ball. For example: baseballs, superballs, tennis balls, bowling balls, cricket balls, medicine balls, testicle balls (these are reportedly used in certain pinball games of the underworld), squash balls, croquet balls, all of these can, theoretically, be used in versions of pinball. Look Hassen, when you read the _Heads of the Town up to the Aether_ you are a ball. I am a ball. He is a ball. She is a ball. We are balls. Spicer rattles and curses the glowing machine. And of course it's preordained. Otherwise you have to believe the poem exists for you, that it's "out there," separate from you. Do you think it makes me happy, _feeling_ like I'm free in the poem, _knowing_ my whole life as a ball is plotted out for me by all the phoneme-wires of Hell? (before I said I really didn't know for sure, but now I've changed my mind.) Look at me. I'm not laughing. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:08:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: taking care of her Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't believe the amount of vitriol aimed at the thread begun by dear Jen's comment. Clearly it is true that the original poster said "he" because girl editors never f*** up. love and kisses sweetpea Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 20:12:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: offendability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PS isn't Norman Mailer one of those who has made a career out of his/her offendability?? TS Eliot?? ETCERAMA Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:23:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: why Althusser shot his wife well, i'm a feminist and i find the title intriguing. perhaps it is, like Mary Wilkins Freeman's "The Revolt of Mother," or Brownings "My Last Duchess," or Susan Glaspell's "A Jury of Her Peers" a subversive narrative by virtue of what it leaves out, and/or implies. maybe it is an analysis of the murder of a woman such that one woman's murder at the hands of a domestic partner is not dismissed but discussed. maybe it is funny -- a wierd, ridiculous story ala james thurber that ends in some unlikely event that causes althusser to shoot his wife... (yes, feminists CAN have a sense of humor). or maybe it is awful. if i see it in a bookstore, i'll report. re disqualification, i've had (and reported in the past) the same theory for some time -- there are so many texts out there now, due in part to historical accretion and in part to widespread dissemination of reading and writing skills that a large body of lit crit and theory is, in fact, aimed at dismissing whole bodies of text so that critics/theorists/hapless- students-of-same who feel overburdened won't have to READ them all! e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 23:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Conte Organization: SUNY at Buffalo Subject: Re: Duncan at MLA in San Francisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B966DAEFF902A2B883F96E75" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B966DAEFF902A2B883F96E75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There may be no panels on Spicer at this year's MLA Convention in SF (when, by the way, has there ever been), but in my quick perusal of the conference schedule, I noticed that there's an interesting (to me) panel on The Poetics of Robert Duncan (#181, Monday, 28 December at 8:30 am), chaired by Burt Hatlen, and with papers by Bob Bertholf, David Bromige (hi! David), and Devin Johnston. Not really a celebration of the SF Renaissance, but it will have to do. Joseph Conte --------------B966DAEFF902A2B883F96E75 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Conte, Joseph Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Joseph Conte n: Conte;Joseph org: SUNY at Buffalo adr: Department of English;;306 Clemens Hall;Buffalo;New York;14260-4610;USA email;internet: jconte@acsu.buffalo.edu title: Associate Professor tel;work: (716) 645-2575 x1009 tel;fax: (716) 645-5980 tel;home: (716) 885-4451 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------B966DAEFF902A2B883F96E75-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:36:07 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: beating a dead stalliomare? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He has received many wounds, muchas gracias amigos In his countless fights With the whites, muchas gracias amigos --Ed Dorn Many on this list seem to find my comments about the use of dual-gendered pronouns hopelessly naive. Please enlighten me: Does the failure of writers in the past to use 'nonsexist' he/she dual-gendered pronouns qualify them retroactively as 'sexist,' or as unconscious 'victims' of sexism? Do present writers who consciously decline, for aesthetic [or any; which?] reasons to use such constructions automatically qualify as 'sexist' or as 'inflictors' of sexism? Or do they deserve to have readers suspect them of sexism on that basis alone? Shelley called poets "the unacknowledged legislators of the world." I'd like to think so, but I'll bet they'd legislate a lot less if some modern Bowdler s/he'd all the works of the poets to whom PBS referred, & all those since! How many poets on this POETICS [remember?] list use s/he-oidisms in their *poetry*? "All men are created equal," the Declaration says. We all know how unfairly and restrictively the Framers construed the term "men," but why change it to "men and womyn"? Why not, instead, recognize that the term "all" has begun to come into the fullness of its meaning? In matters such as these, I prefer the Sapphic injunction -- "don't disturb the rubble" (later incarnated in the Sufic principle, "don't strike at the face") -- to the Bowdlerization of the past, present, or future. Bowlder's redaction sacrificed beauty to ideological & 'moral' purity, as I believe the present huffing & puffing about pronouns also seeks to do. It seems a perverse attempt to change the content of people's characters by modifying the color of their skins. Respectfully, Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:38:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: MLA MATTERS In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981027134922.0068c04c@popmail.lmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I note that the MLA poetry reading featuring Bromige, Hejinian and >Scalapino is scheduled for the same time as the Cash Bar "arranged by the >Division on Poetry." In the interest of avoiding divisions, and seeing >that these two events are only a floor apart in the San Francsico Hilton, I >propose that volunteers organize a bucket brigade to communicate between >the two rooms. A careful idea. For years I have always taken a bucket to readings by David Bromige. He returns the salute. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: beating a dead stalliomare? Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <3636AD47.5CB3@idt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Does the failure of writers in the past to use 'nonsexist' > he/she dual-gendered pronouns qualify them retroactively as > 'sexist,' or as unconscious 'victims' of sexism? This for me is extremely interesting - is Plato sexist for example; was George Washington racist? These contemporary terms are applied to past domains (socius, environment, culture, nation - all these terms are problematic), where they become the focus of projections of current dis- course. Many native American groups "kept slaves" for example - but what does _slave_ mean in this context? All of these terms are over-determined for us; retroactive application can be another form of colonizing. > > Do present writers who consciously decline, for aesthetic > [or any; which?] reasons to use such constructions automatically > qualify as 'sexist' or as 'inflictors' of sexism? Or do they > deserve to have readers suspect them of sexism on that basis alone? It depends on "automatic" here; what's called for is sensitivity, not a transcendent positioning. > > Shelley called poets "the unacknowledged legislators of the world." > I'd like to think so, but I'll bet they'd legislate a lot less > if some modern Bowdler s/he'd all the works of the poets to whom PBS > referred, & all those since! How many poets on this POETICS [remember?] > list use s/he-oidisms in their *poetry*? I do or at least work consciously with gender. Your calling up a "modern Bowdler" is a bit of a red herring; no one is calling for censorship. > > "All men are created equal," the Declaration says. We all know how > unfairly and restrictively the Framers construed the term "men," but why > change it to "men and womyn"? Why not, instead, recognize that the term > "all" has begun to come into the fullness of its meaning? Because you can use "all men" to refer to "all males," and "all women" to refer to "all females"; there's no fullness - it's a modifier here. > > In matters such as these, I prefer the Sapphic injunction -- "don't > disturb the rubble" (later incarnated in the Sufic principle, "don't > strike at the face") -- to the Bowdlerization of the past, present, or > future. Bowlder's redaction sacrificed beauty to ideological & 'moral' > purity, as I believe the present huffing & puffing about pronouns also > seeks to do. It seems a perverse attempt to change the content of > people's characters by modifying the color of their skins. Again, no one is calling for PC I think, again, just sensitivity. I know it _does_ make a difference in the classroom, and at least in my own work, it makes a difference as well. But then I choose it to. Alan > > Respectfully, > > Dan Zimmerman > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:00:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Epitaph, Pretty Party Dress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Epitaph, Pretty Party Dress Lifeforce absorbed in calcium begins edgy collapse, as sheaves reflect need of bones. Once I walked these shores. Now memory serves potassium interference; collapse is. Once I thought memory would serve me. That is when I walked lake bed, picked stones, lived in cool light of Providence. You must think energy energy. Absorption beats up on foolish words. Stones continue centering of language. What I need, your drug. Veins stretched out in thundering skies. I want to go to your dance with all you. I want to bring my friends on what means. There are many talking. I need to know talking. Sometime now I will in silence die. Calcium stone will fall and failing building. Now I will tell time to all who listen. So loose energy, need your party now. Party-club-dance. I wanna see you in your new party dress. I wanna see you in your new party dress. I wanna crowd around. I wanna crowd around. Let's have fun for me cause I'll be there for the fun of merry fun. Let's have merry fun for good and sparkling talk and sound of drug. Let me play for you. Let me play for you. I wanna crowd around you. I wanna crowd around. So listen party-club-dance in the pretty-party-dress! Lemme loosen up! Let's have merry fun! ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:17:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Mathews Losh Subject: Re: why Althusser shot his wife In-Reply-To: <199810280423.XAA07035@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Poetics: I find this discussion interesting since for years I have been threatening to write a history of my native Los Angeles entitled _THANK GOD COLONEL GRIFFITH SHOT HIS WIFE IN THE HEAD!_. The title refers to the fact that we Angelenos only have a big chunk of centrally located park land (Griffith Park) because one day an inebriated and delusional Colonel Griffith thought that his wife of many years (a lovely dark-eyed beauty from one of the original Spanish familes) was trying to poison him as part of a Roman Catholic plot. Apparently Colonel Griffith wasn't a very good shot compared to celebrated wife-killers like Althusser and Burroughs and Muybridge. Senora Griffith clambered out the window with a bullet wound in her skull and Griffith subsequently mollified the city fathers by turning over a huge chunk of land. My question: who's wife was shot so that New Yorkers could have Central Park? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:18:29 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: Rootin Tootin Shootin titles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Eliza McGrand - How about the title of the collection of Morrocan stories edited by Paul Bowles years ago - "She Woke Me Up So I Shot Her" ? Cheers, Pam Brown ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:10:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Thatcher speaks out for Pinochet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yeah pete, wail out sing that murdering witches holloween sooey blews now if carlos menem would only try to extradite her billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:44:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Faculty at CSU--Sacramento? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know anyone (etc.) who teaches English and/or creative writing at Cal State Univ.--Sacramento? Would appreciate any replies, backchannel please and thank you. Kathy Lou ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:12:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: why Althusser shot his wife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Of course Althusser did not shoot his wife, he smothered her with a pillow -- a procedure which clearly doesn't make as attractive a title for US consumption than the all-american shoot-out (at theory corral). Pierre Eliza McGrand wrote: > well, i'm a feminist and i find the title intriguing. perhaps it is, > like Mary Wilkins Freeman's "The Revolt of Mother," or Brownings "My > Last Duchess," or Susan Glaspell's "A Jury of Her Peers" a subversive > narrative by virtue of what it leaves out, and/or implies. > > maybe it is an analysis of the murder of a woman such that one woman's > murder at the hands of a domestic partner is not dismissed but > discussed. > > maybe it is funny -- a wierd, ridiculous story ala james thurber that ends > in some unlikely event that causes althusser to shoot his wife... (yes, > feminists CAN have a sense of humor). > > or maybe it is awful. if i see it in a bookstore, i'll report. > > re disqualification, i've had (and reported in the past) the same theory > for some time -- there are so many texts out there now, due in part to > historical accretion and in part to widespread dissemination of reading > and writing skills that a large body of lit crit and theory is, in fact, > aimed at dismissing whole bodies of text so that critics/theorists/hapless- > students-of-same who feel overburdened won't have to READ them all! > > e -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: beating a dead stalliomare? Comments: To: Daniel Zimmerman In-Reply-To: <3636AD47.5CB3@idt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In response to thine message, Daniel: thou knowst: times change. Pronouns too: even for thee. Would it be hideously familiar and disrespectful (ugly, awkward, grotesque even) for me to use "you" and "yours"? On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > He has received many wounds, > muchas gracias amigos > In his countless fights > With the whites, > muchas gracias amigos > > --Ed Dorn > > Many on this list seem to find my comments about the use of > dual-gendered pronouns hopelessly naive. Please enlighten me: > > Does the failure of writers in the past to use 'nonsexist' > he/she dual-gendered pronouns qualify them retroactively as > 'sexist,' or as unconscious 'victims' of sexism? > > Do present writers who consciously decline, for aesthetic > [or any; which?] reasons to use such constructions automatically > qualify as 'sexist' or as 'inflictors' of sexism? Or do they > deserve to have readers suspect them of sexism on that basis alone? > > Shelley called poets "the unacknowledged legislators of the world." > I'd like to think so, but I'll bet they'd legislate a lot less > if some modern Bowdler s/he'd all the works of the poets to whom PBS > referred, & all those since! How many poets on this POETICS [remember?] > list use s/he-oidisms in their *poetry*? > > "All men are created equal," the Declaration says. We all know how > unfairly and restrictively the Framers construed the term "men," but why > change it to "men and womyn"? Why not, instead, recognize that the term > "all" has begun to come into the fullness of its meaning? > > In matters such as these, I prefer the Sapphic injunction -- "don't > disturb the rubble" (later incarnated in the Sufic principle, "don't > strike at the face") -- to the Bowdlerization of the past, present, or > future. Bowlder's redaction sacrificed beauty to ideological & 'moral' > purity, as I believe the present huffing & puffing about pronouns also > seeks to do. It seems a perverse attempt to change the content of > people's characters by modifying the color of their skins. > > Respectfully, > > Dan Zimmerman > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:36:27 -0500 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: why Althusser shot his wife In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Uhhh..maybe i was always under the wrong impression; but didn't LA *strangle* his wife???? Is this a bit of pomo postmythicizing, pulling our postlegs, on the part of the book's author? You sure it wasn't Why Yasusada Shot his Wife?? On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > The title of a book I saw in a book-store, "Why Althusser shot his wife, > and other essays," got me thinking about the category of > "disqualification," by which I mean the mental habit of dismissing, > whether with justification or not, on the basis of some trigger* being > pulled. I find I am prone to doing this. When I saw the title of this book > I thought "boy, that might "disqualify" him for some feminists." > > My colleague's accent in Spanish makes me wince. The discovery of Paul de > Man's war-time writing disqualifies 'deconstruction' in retrospect. A > professor in college (poet whose gender I will not name) tells me WCW is a > bad influence. The color-blind art-critic, barber with bad haircut, > etc... > > These disqualifications can obviously be unjust, ad hominem, or > irrelevant. But they have a certain inexorable logic I find hard to > resist at times. > > Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:24:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: mestostic / 3 ply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mestostic for dick higgins graDually In Counting shaKing otHer weIght leG enerGetically kIndred aNd Shifting __________________ words extracted from "foew&ombwhnw" by dick higgins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Louis Althusser = Anthony Robbins? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I recalled it as strangling. Anyway, searching for more information, I searched for Althusser on Yahoo and got the following URL: http://www.cyber-nation.com/victory/quotations/authors/quotes_althusser_louis.html This page features the LA quote, "Ideology has very little to do with "consciousness" -- it is profoundly unconscious." Cyber Nation, as it turns out, is a success motivation web site, the mission of which is "To Provide YOU And Your Family With Powerful And Unique Tools And Products To Improve And Enhance All Aspects Of Your Life... And To Inspire And Empower You To Achieve Your Dreams And Destiny." The Althusser quote above is one of many "Great quotes to inspire, empower and motivate you to live the life of your dreams and become the person you've always wanted to be!" Among the other quotes under "ideology" is the following by V.I. Voloshinov (or Bakhtin, whatever): "Everything ideological possesses meaning: it represents, depicts, or stands for something lying outside itself. In other words, it is a sign. Without signs there is no ideology." This strikes me as hilarious -- Tony Robbins reading _Marxism and the Philosophy of Language_. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: This is really strange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Could anyone help me out with an answer here? I received the below posting this morning. I am not, nor have I ever been, subscribed to the Wom-Po Listserv. What is going on here? I hope someone there didn't see that my last post to Poetics was entitled "Balls" and thus is sending me this as some sort of warning that my sexism is being monitored! Kent ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:36:59 -0400 To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: Boland on Ponsot? Jenny Factor wrote: >Help Wendy! > >Did I miss a posting with a quote by Eavan Boland about Ponsot's work? Jenny, There's a long-ish blurb by Boland on the back of _The Bird Catcher_--"in praise of _The Green Dark_"-- Wendy ====================== Wendy Battin wjbat@conncoll.edu All S is P. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:07:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: This is really strange In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:57:21 -0500 from On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:57:21 -0500 KENT JOHNSON said: >Could anyone help me out with an answer here? I received the below >posting this morning. I am not, nor have I ever been, subscribed to >the Wom-Po Listserv. What is going on here? Have you checked your pronouns lately, Kent "boy"? J checked hers only AFTER she wrote the Bible - don't make the same mistake. Have you been diddling away your precious time writing "she & he"? Or comparing Lovecraft Cult notes on literary stranglings? (Happy Halloween, you mandarin dolt perverts out there) - Henry Ghould a.k.a Count Distractula ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:33:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: MLA MATTERS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aldon Nielsen wrote: > I note that the MLA poetry reading featuring Bromige, Hejinian and > Scalapino is scheduled for the same time as the Cash Bar "arranged by the > Division on Poetry." In the interest of avoiding divisions, and seeing > that these two events are only a floor apart in the San Francsico Hilton, I > propose that volunteers organize a bucket brigade to communicate between > the two rooms. re MLA: A Pitch to the Crowd: I was nominated to stand for election to the executive committee of the Division on Poetry this year. So, if you have not yet cast your ballots, why not vote for me. Get a further list-member on that committee, and at the minimum I promise to organize that bucket brigade Aldon is clammering for at future events -- & at the max, I'll try to do my best to avoid such double dates. Inbetween the min & the max there a lot else that can be done. See (some of) you in San Francisco. Pierre -- ======================== Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 ======================== All that is not gas is grammar — Wittgenstein ======================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: This is really strange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > Could anyone help me out with an answer here? I received the below > posting this morning. I am not, nor have I ever been, subscribed to > the Wom-Po Listserv. What is going on here? > Are you sure you're not a wombat? Come on, let us in on the secrets of wombat poetics. How have they solved the pronoun crisis? Elf waits with baited breath. A she or an it or gladly a they but never a he, Laura -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not agree with me either, and time just kept on passing." (Henri Michaux) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:51:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Faculty at CSU--Sacramento? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi Kathy Lou, I'm not affiliated w/ Sac State at all, but can tell you that Dennis Schmitz has been the creative writing (poetry) teacher there for years. I could probably find out other names if you need them. Lemme order some Lipstick now. I'll get a check for $8 in the mail to you today. all best, Charles Smith 2135 Irvin Way Sacramento, CA 95822 << Does anyone know anyone (etc.) who teaches English and/or creative writing at Cal State Univ.--Sacramento? Would appreciate any replies, backchannel please and thank you. Kathy Lou >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:15:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: This is really strange In-Reply-To: <363758EE.C0E74D2C@naropa.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Laura gave me a good idea. Why not just a shit? For example, "The Poet, whatever shit's class, race, shoe size or lyric gift, must necessarily, at this late stage of the Twentieth Century be responsible at least for shit's own typos, hairdos, gaps between front teeth and gaps between words. Shit MUST give a shit. On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Laura E. Wright wrote: > > A she or an it or gladly a they but never a he, > Laura > -- > Laura Wright, Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > "Then there was a situation with tufts (and flowers). This did not > agree > with me either, and time just kept on passing." > (Henri Michaux) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: java in NY: reading announcement (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:45:04 -0500 >From: Stacy Doris <113577.1646@compuserve.com> Sun. Nov. 8, 6:30 (right before the Bill Luoma Ted Greenwald reading there) At Zinc Bar 90 West Houston St (at LaGuardia Place), NYC Jacques Sivan, Vannina Maestri, Jean-Michel Espitallier, editors of Java, a French poetry magazine featuring vibrant new French writers (what some of you complain don't exist) will present their magazine and a bit of their writing (translated by Chet Wiener, Kristin Prevallet, Stephen Rodefer). They'll also take questions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:04:47 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a snailmail and / or email for Lucas Mulder and for Bill Keith. If you do could you backchannel? Thanks Lawrence Upton --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence Upton's website: http://members.spree.com/sip/lizard/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "WORD SCORE UTTERANCE CHOREOGRAPHY in verbal and visual poetry" edited by Bob Cobbing and Lawrence Upton Writers Forum, London, 1998; 156 pp; ISBN 0 86162 750 4 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:41:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: java in NY: reading announcement (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981028130713.006c6030@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, could you please ask them (& post the response) how one might order a sample copy of Java? Thanks, Sylvester At 1:07 PM -0500 10/28/98, Charles Bernstein wrote: >>Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:45:04 -0500 >>From: Stacy Doris <113577.1646@compuserve.com> > >Sun. Nov. 8, 6:30 (right before the Bill Luoma Ted Greenwald reading there) > >At Zinc Bar 90 West Houston St (at LaGuardia Place), NYC > >Jacques Sivan, Vannina Maestri, Jean-Michel Espitallier, editors of Java, a >French poetry magazine featuring vibrant new French writers (what some of >you complain don't exist) will present their magazine and a bit of their >writing (translated by Chet Wiener, Kristin Prevallet, Stephen Rodefer). > >They'll also take questions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:49:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "s. kaipa" Subject: I n t e r l o p e #2, THE COSMOPOLITANS by Sianne Ngai & Brian Kim, Stefans has just hit the newsstands! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I n t e r l o p e magazine presents its second issue (a chapbook): THE COSMOPOLITANS A Poem by Sianne Ngai and Brian Kim Stefans Send $3.50 (US Dollars only) for a copy of this issue, OR $7.00 for a copy of this issue plus the back issue (featuring Warren Liu, Hoa Nguyen, Tina Celona, and Amar Ravva), OR $10.00 for a subscription of 3 issues, OR $12.00 for a subscription of 4 issues. I n t e r l o p e: a journal of asian american poetics & issues Summi Kaipa, editor 103 S. Governor, #1 Iowa City, IA 52240 skaipa@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu WATCH FOR FUTURE ISSUES OF THE MAGAZINE including work by Sesshu Foster, Ida Yoshinaga, and more . . . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:09:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: mestostic / 6 ply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mestostic for dick higgins galvanizeD fIlter Cools bucKet Hat It stockinGs suGaring lIttle taNks Smell __________________ words extracted from "foew&ombwhnw" by dick higgins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:25:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: Faculty at CSU--Sacramento? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Charles! Some Lipstick shall be sent your way this week Thank you! Thanks also for info re: Sac State. I'm trying to find out what the "climate" in the department is like in relation to experimental poetics and teaching poetry in general, what sorts of students one encounters there (in grad and undergrad progs.) Could you fill me in a bit on Dennis Schmitz? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with his work. Lipstickly yours, Kathy Lou CharSSmith@AOL.COM wrote: > > hi Kathy Lou, > > I'm not affiliated w/ Sac State at all, but can tell you that Dennis Schmitz > has been the creative writing (poetry) teacher there for years. I could > probably find out other names if you need them. > > Lemme order some Lipstick now. I'll get a check for $8 in the mail to you > today. > > all best, > > Charles Smith > 2135 Irvin Way > Sacramento, CA 95822 > > << Does anyone know anyone (etc.) who teaches English and/or creative > writing at Cal State Univ.--Sacramento? Would appreciate any replies, > backchannel please and thank you. > Kathy Lou >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:41:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: ba(i)ted breath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Laura, possibly you mean baited breath, as in, "I had tuna for lunch," but I bet you mean bated. (db3, hurrying to beat Bowering to the Corrective Curmudgeon punch). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:32:47 -0800 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: more addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know, it is just never-ending. But if anyone has e-mail or phone (I already have snail mail) for the following individuals: Jena Osman Dan Machlin Eileen Tabios Megan Simpson Juliana Spahr Thank you thank you. Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:36:23 -0800 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: typographical speak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All this talk about editors and whatnot has me wondering if there is any mailing list or website that has an ongoing conversation about copyediting, usage, etc. For instance, if I had a specific question that I needed answered rather quickly or maybe I just wanted to debate the use of certain punctuation, well I'm sure you know what I mean... Any resources? Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:44:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: MLA MATTERS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For us non-MLAers, does anyone have info on how to register for the conference? I went to the MLA Web site and there is no such information--even though a prominent, sexy link promises such. But, gee, why would a Web site have any USEFUL info? Much appreciated. Kathy Lou p.s. Thanks for posting info on Duncan panel, readings, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:38:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: I n t e r l o p e #2, THE COSMOPOLITANS by Sianne Ngai & Bria... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Summi--I'm ordering front channel from you (the $7 package) only cuz I wanted to pump the forthcoming Ida Yoshinaga material; she's published several times in _Tinfish_, very fine work. Everyone take heed! Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:06:57 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: I n t e r l o p e #2, THE COSMOPOLITANS by Sianne Ngai & Bria... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Schultz wrote: > > Summi--I'm ordering front channel from you (the $7 package) only cuz I wanted > to pump the forthcoming Ida Yoshinaga material; she's published several times > in _Tinfish_, very fine work. Everyone take heed! > > Susan Schultz Let me sound like a "school" (skool) teacher here-- but gosh--I went away for a weekend and came back to 178 messages from the list! MOST had no conversational tone to them--MOST were really e-------------mails--which required only a specifically personal reply--- so--er--i guess I'm saying--yikes-- a poetics list--could it sometimes be only focused on a POETICS-- Todd B. ps: Yes, I am a "skool"ed lister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:59:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Another gimmick,Elizabeth Robinson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Thanks to everyone who responded to the Inscape #3 offer, which "sold" out very quickly. For those of you who are fond of Elizabeth Robinson's poems I would like to put her chapbook, _Other Veins, Absent Roots_ in your hands. Again, free, to the first 20 respondents. Leonard Brink Instress ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:10:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Keppler/Andrews visual poetry show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://speakeasy.org/~jandrews/vispo/images/GarbOTheGods/LanguimageAtMocambo.html links to a notice about the collaborative visual poetry show by Jim Andrews and Joseph F. Keppler happening Nov 1-27 in Victoria BC Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: Ted Hughes is dead] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Douglas Clark wrote: > poetry etc - a list administered by John Kinsella - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/8574/ > > after an 18-month battle with cancer. Just reported on BBCTV news. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to poetryetc-unsubscribe@listbot.com > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: I n t e r l o p e #2, THE COSMOPOLITANS by Sianne Ngai & Bria... Comments: To: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap In-Reply-To: <36383E41.79B6@earthlink.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If this is a sample of conversation, I'll pass. > > Let me sound like a "school" (skool) teacher here-- > but gosh--I went away for a weekend and came back to > 178 messages from the list! MOST had no conversational tone to > them--MOST were really e-------------mails--which required only a > specifically personal reply--- > > so--er--i guess I'm saying--yikes-- > a poetics list--could it sometimes be only focused on a > POETICS-- > > Todd B. > > ps: Yes, I am a "skool"ed lister > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: now accepting orders for The Hat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Hat No. 1 Catherine Barnett Brenda Coultas Tonya Foster Greta Goetz Lisa Jarnot Janice Lowe Kimberly Lyons Carol Mirakove Ange Mlinko Cynthia Nelson Hoa Nguyen Alice Notley Prageeta Sharma Juliana Spahr The Hat is published twice a year. One-year subscription: $12. Price per single issue: $7. Lifetime subscription: $1000. Make checks payable to Jordan Davis. Editors: Jordan Davis and Chris Edgar Please send correspondence to: The Hat c/o Edgar 331 E 9th St Apt 1 New York NY 10003 Contributors will be receiving their copies in the next few weeks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:40:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: now accepting orders for The Hat In-Reply-To: <01be0345$7abebd60$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The Hat is published twice a year. One-year subscription: $12. Price per >single issue: $7. Lifetime subscription: $1000. Make checks payable to >Jordan Davis. I have to admire the ambition here. Assuming there is no discount at all for the lifetime subscription, then the $1000 charge means that The Hat projects a publishing lifetime of more than 83 years -- not to mention that the lifetime subscriber also hopes to live at least 83 more years. And I thought longevity and stability were old values, washed away into the crevasses of post-industrial society's shifting centers of identity and meaning. You renew my faith in American stick-to-it-iveness. charles ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:24:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: 5 guys named Mo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To defend the list... while there is always too much 'noise' on the channel, where else can I find 500 people as knowledgable and obsessed about poetry as I am? "Poetics" has put me in contact with old friends, helped me make new ones by back-channel, and provided high-powered discussion of important issues. I can hardly criticize people who post too much, being one of the worst offenders, but I would like to hear more from the silent majority... Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** British Lord's ashes fired off in cannon LONDON (Reuters) - The ashes of an eccentric British peer were fired from an 18th century cannon to their final resting place - a wooded copse on his country estate. The 7th Lord Newborough, a war hero with a colorful past, left his son specific instructions about his offbeat farewell. His heir duly obliged on the family's Denbighshire estate, firing his ashes in a steel canister. The cannon burst briefly into flames and rolled down a hill but safely propelled the ashes into the copse. "I think my father would have allowed himself a wry smile," the 8th Lord Newborough told the Daily Telegraph newspaper after the parting shot. ### ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: 5 guys named Mo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 29 Oct., Jonathan Mayhew wrote: "To defend the list... while there is always too much 'noise' on the channel, where else can I find 500 people as knowledgable and obsessed about poetry as I am? "Poetics" has put me in contact with old friends, helped me make new ones by back-channel, and provided high-powered discussion of important issues." Oh yeah? Well, speaking for myself... Since I joined"Poetics" about two years ago, I have pissed-off and lost the only "old friend" that was on the List to begin with, made most people hate me (though I seem to have come in at a disadvantage from the get-go), made one or two acquaintances back-channel who soon stopped writing me, and driven myself continuously crazy trying to follow the esoteric and high-powered discussion of ultimately meaningless issues. But I love being here. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:39:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: 5 guys named Mo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I for one dont hate you, Kent Johnson,--I am very glad to have made yr e-quaintance, and even if you did bump me on the court once or twice, you have given me some good games. I admire both your post, and Jonathan Mayhew's, for its balanced evaluation of this List, which, let me testify, galvanized my life during the early months I was on it. Yeah, I'm a bit jaded now, more inclined to find fault with it,--I miss the whacky humor of 2 years ago, for instance,-- but there is so much that is positive about it, and its better than 50 newspapers. I know I posted 5 times in one day recently, but I have let days go by w/o posting once, and will try to sin no more. (Am _I_ Mo?) + + + + + + For us few older codgers on this List, the news of Ted Hughes' demise--whatever we think of his poetry--must set that old "Exit" sign flashing again. He was just recently arrived when we came in, and--in the twinkling of a moment, a mere 4 decades--gone. Timor mortis conturbat me. It's a clear blue day here in NoCal. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Poetry City Fall 1998 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tonight, October 29, 7 pm Bill Luoma & Tony Lopez Thursday, November 5, 7pm Mercedes Roffe & Robert Kocik Thursday, November 12, 7 pm Alissa Quart & Katy Lederer Thursday, November 19, 7 pm Emer Marten THANKSGIVING -- NO READING Thursday, December 3 -- NO READING Thursday, December 10, 7 pm Kenneth Koch & Eileen Myles Thursday, December 17, 7 pm Frank Perez & Alba Delia Hernandez Poetry City in the offices of Teachers & Writers Collaborative 5 Union Square West, 7th Floor, New York City Anna Malmude and Jordan Davis, hosts Funded in part by gifts from the National Endowment for the Arts and the New York State Council for the Arts All readings are free ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Ted Hughes In-Reply-To: <36385485.C690CCFB@csc.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at Oct 29, 98 07:41:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BBC, UK Poet Ted Hughes dies Ted Hughes: Kept his illness a secret One of Britain's most admired literary figures, the Poet Laureate, Ted Hughes, has died aged 68. Mr Hughes died peacefully at his home in Devon after an 18-month battle with cancer that he had kept secret from all but those very close to him. The writer was named Poet Laureate in 1984 and was widely acclaimed for the intense images he evoked of the English countryside and the savagery of the animal world. The Queen and the prime minister were among the first to express their condolences. Mr Hughes made his final public appearance at a private audience with the Queen 13 days ago, when she presented him with the Order of Merit. An official spokesman at Buckingham Palace said: "She was grateful for the opportunity to recognise his work and achievements, before he died, through the award of the Order of Merit." Tony Blair called Mr Hughes a "towering figure in 20th-century literature", and said the poet's contribution to the body of great British poetry was immense. Although famed for his dark imagery of the British countryside, the poet was also renowned in literary history for his marriage to American poet Sylvia Plath. Their stormy relationship dogged his reputation after she committed suicide in February 1963, soon after he left her for another woman. A collection of poems published by Hughes this year, Birthday Letters, shed new light on his difficult marriage and brought him sympathy along with rave reviews. He was awarded a £10,000 Forward Poetry prize for the collection earlier in October. He said in a message read out at the awards by his editor Christopher Reid: "My book Birthday Letters is a gathering of the occasions - written with no plan over about 25 years - in which I tried to open a direct, private, inner contact with my first wife, not thinking to make a poem, thinking mainly to evoke her presence to myself and to feel her there listening." The reclusive Hughes had chosen not to defend himself against a storm of abuse from fans of Sylvia Plath, some of whom branded him a murderer after her suicide. The poet made few public appearances and, until the publication of Birthday Letters, made no comment on his six-year marriage. But the poems showed that although he remarried, he had never stopped thinking about Sylvia Plath. Kept tightly under wraps with none of the fanfare usually accorded publishing events, it came as a complete surprise to the literary world. Hughes' death will come as a similar surprise to many. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:58:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Liu Subject: Routine Disruptions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain When I left Cornell College in Iowa last Spring to take a new post out East, I felt an immenses sense of relief to unsubscribe from the poetics listserv and to terminate my email account--so many unread messages clogging up the poetic drain. After a break, however, I'm happy to log back on and catch snippets of Ted Hughes death, Interlope #2, and social anathematic fall out! As a poet who reads Talisman in one hand and The Yale Review in the other, I have always been interested in the conversations that manage to bridge the aesthetic abyss of our poetry at century's end (the way W.W. Norton is to Burning Deck as Dover once was to Calais.). Hats off to Coffee House Press for publishing the selected Kenward Elmslie. I had been reading the new poems in the last couple of issues in New American Writing and was so happy to find ROUTINE DISRUPTIONS faced-out on the shelves at St. Marks. From poets like Elaine Equi to Linda Hogan, Coffee House seems to have reached out to many camps. Timothy Liu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:23:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: happier news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Juan Rulfo International Latin American and Caribbean Prize for literature has been awarded to poet Olga Orozco of Argentina. She has published ten volumes of poetry, most of which are not available to us in the U.S. -- but a few selections are on view in U of Texas Press' "Twentieth Century Latin American Poetry." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:12:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: "In which will be found what is set forth therein." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1) somebody was asking about MLA conference registration -- the date to get the lower rate by mail is now long past -- which means it's easiest simply to register at the conference itself -- but the steep price is daunting -- there IS a lower rate for students,,,, also daunting would be the prospect of trying to find a hotel room at this late date -- BUT, there are several sessions open to the public -- I think they're identified in the on-line version of the program (since they are in the printed version) the reading by Bromige, Hejinian & Scalapino IS among the events open to the public for free -- the panel I'm on is not one of the free sessions, and I am sure that will cause no end of pain to everybody on this list -- 2) a footnote to the comments about judging past personages by present standards etc -- I think anybody who'd read much of George Washington's writing would have to agree that he was a racist -- but more importantly, the question raised about judging the likes of the father of our country by today's standard's usually betrays a significant narrowing of what might stand as a standard IN the past -- for example, what did Africans in America think about the question? Phillis Wheatley gives us one set of answers,,,, there are others -- My point is simply that the argument that we might attempt to understand the thinking of Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin from the viewpoint of their contemporaries isn't such a bad idea in itself, but is generally put forward by people who do not, in fact, include enough of those contemporaries in their construction of the past standards -- 3) Hi, Todd -- how's the old caesura doing? 4) generally no real need for "he or she" or the reprehensible "s/he" -- nine times out of ten the issue can be addressed by a plural address (Oh, why didn't the parents of our mother tongue bless us with a neuter pronoun?) -- for example, instead of "The writer should observe his or her pronominal imperatives," why not "Writers should mind their Ps & Qs." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:51:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Brion Gysin question Here's a (vaguely related to poetics) question: does any of you know about possible connections between Gysin and the Surrealists? I had the notion that somewhere Gysin said Breton had thrown him out of the Surrealist movement, but I may be way off--would be interested in confirmation / disconfirmation of that, further information, etc. The context for this question is that I have a student who's trying to track a web of connections from Tzara / Dada to Surrealism to Gysin to Burroughs as he writes about *The Ticket That Exploded*, *Nova Express* and *The Soft Machine*. Thanks, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:31:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: s/hee-it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am astonished to find Dr.Nielsen, usually the most sensible and perspicacious of persons, reprehending the use of "s/he." Since I think this a convenient solution to the problem, I must inquire of A.N. what are the grounds of his finding a term adopted not only by many of our peers, but by me myself, to be reprehensible? How does he feel about either/or? Both/and? Am I going to have to give up these as well,in order not to offend the eye/ear of my dear friend? David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:34:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: crow croaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" October 29, 1998 Britain's Poet Laureate Hughes Dies Filed at 9:57 a.m. EST By The Associated Press LONDON (AP) -- British poet laureate Ted Hughes, whose stormy marriage to the anguished American poet Sylvia Plath dogged his reputation after her suicide, has died. He was 68. Hughes died Wednesday at his home in Devon after an 18-month battle with cancer, which he had kept secret, said Matthew Evans, chairman of Hughes' publishing company, Faber and Faber. ``Not only was he one of the greatest poets of the 20th century, but he was the most extraordinary man,'' Evans said today. ``The loss to his family is inestimable.'' A collection of searingly intense poems published by Hughes this year called ``Birthday Letters'' shed new light on his difficult six-year marriage to the tortured Plath, brought him sympathy and won him rave reviews. The reclusive Hughes chose not to defend himself after Plath's suicide on Feb. 11, 1963, months after he had left her for another woman. She gassed herself in the kitchen, leaving milk and cookies for the couple's two children in the next room. Some Plath fans had called Hughes a murderer, and his name was repeatedly hacked off her gravestone in Yorkshire, northern England. Evans noted that there was ``a great deal of understanding'' after Hughes put forth his story for the first time -- and revealed the obvious depth of his love for Plath -- in the 88 poems that make up ``Birthday Letters,'' chronicling the couple's meeting, marriage and separation. The poems surprised many with their startling intimacy they revealed. Of the first time the couple made love, Hughes wrote: ``You were slim and lithe and smooth as a fish. You were a new world. My new world. So this is America, I marveled. Beautiful, beautiful America.'' Hughes, poet laureate since 1984, refused to be interviewed about the poems, which span 25 years beginning in the late 1960s. But in a letter read by his editor, Christopher Reid, he called the book ``a gathering of the occasions -- written with no plan over about 25 years -- in which I tried to open a direct, private, inner contact with my first wife, not thinking to make a poem, thinking mainly to evoke her presence to myself and to feel her there listening.'' Hughes and Plath married in 1956 after meeting at Cambridge. They went to the United States in 1957, where she taught at Smith College and he taught at the University of Massachusetts. They returned to England in 1959 and continued to write and publish poetry. Plath had had a history of mental problems and had first attempted suicide three years before meeting Hughes. Poet Andrew Motion, writing in The Times of London, said reading ``Birthday Letters'' was ``like being hit by a thunderbolt.'' ``Anyone who thought Hughes's reticence was proof of his hard heart will immediately see how stony they have been themselves,'' Motion wrote. ``It closes in a heart of darkness, a black hole of grief and regret. We stare into it feeling changed and enriched.'' The book was dedicated to the couple's children, Nicholas and Frieda. At the time of its publication, Frieda, a 34-year-old artist, said in a newspaper interview that she had lived under the burden of her mother's suicide. ``I never read my parents' poetry until a couple of years ago,'' she said. ``I even rejected the chance to study my father's work for school exams. It was too close to home.'' Hughes was the son of a carpenter, born Aug. 17, 1930, in the bleak mill town of Mytholmroyd in Yorkshire, northern England. He began writing poems in grammar school. After studying at Cambridge University, he took a number of part-time jobs to support his writing. His first volume of poems, ``Hawk in the Rain,'' was published in 1957 and set the scene for his later work with its unsentimental and savage view of the natural world. Hughes, who remarried in 1970, published more than 35 poems and collections of verse, three works of prose, two opera libretti and four stage plays. He was a successful children's writer as well, publishing five poetic works for young people and seven stories including the popular ``The Iron Man'' -- published in 1968 in the United States as ``The Iron Giant.'' In January, he won the Whitbread Book of the Year award for ``Tales of Ovid,'' his reworking of Ovid's ``Metamorphosis,'' which the judges described as a work of ``greatness and sublimity.'' Hughes' last appearance in public was 13 days ago, when he accepted the Order of Merit, a rare honor, from Queen Elizabeth II at Buckingham Palace. The queen was ``very saddened and will be in touch with his family. She was grateful for the opportunity to recognize his work and achievements before he died,'' a palace statement said. Prime Minister Tony Blair issued a statement saying, ``He was a towering figure in 20th century literature who even in his last years was producing great works.'' ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:26:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: New address for Avec Books site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The web site for Avec Books is now located at: http://www.litpress.com/avec/ If your site has a link to the Avec site, please make this correction (although the old site will have a link to the new one). Thanks. --Chris Reiner ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:02:45 -0500 Reply-To: fperrell@JLC.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F. W. Perrella" Subject: Creative NonQuictions Contest - Web Del Sol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: If the writing you do includes creative nonfiction, you might want to consider the Creative NonQuiction contest sponsored jointly by Web Del Sol and the editors of 5_Trope and Brevity. Creative NonQuiction is defined as creative non-fiction that's very quick - 250 words or less. Contest guidelines are at http://webdelsol.com/cnq.htm Judges for the contest are Joel Chace, poetry editor for 5_Trope (http://webdelsol.com/5_trope), and Dinty W. Moore, editor of Brevity (http://cac.psu.edu/~dwm7/notart.htm). The entry fee is $5 for two creative nonQuictions (250 words or less for each nonQuiction); *all* entry fees will be awarded out as prize money. First prize is $250 (guaranteed minimum - if entry fee total is higher, then first prize is 50% of entry fee total); second prize is 35% of entry fee total, third prize is 15% of entry fee total. Entries must be snailed to: Creative NonQuiction Contest c/o Web Del Sol 2020 Pennsylvania Ave, NW Ste 443 Washington DC 20006 Deadline January 31, 1999 Checks are to be made payable to "Michael Neff/Editor, Web Del Sol" Give it a try and see what you can come up with! Thanks, Anne Perrella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:08:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Routine Disruptions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Routine Disruptions is necessary reading. We should all be grateful that Kenward's entire circus is conveniently located now in one big tent. Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:59:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question In-Reply-To: <19981029.135110.ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've heard the story of Gysin being thrown out by Breton on a few occassions, but don't know much of the details beyond that. A good book which does gives some treatment to Gysin's art and his history is Robert A. Sobieszek's _Ports of Entry: William S. Burroughs and the Arts_ (Los Angeles: Los Angeles County Museum of Art, 1996.) Sobieszek also covers the cut-up novels, and he provides a large number of plates of a variety of other cut-up experiments done in that period as well. BC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:07:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: s/hee-it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:31 AM 10/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >I am astonished to find Dr.Nielsen, usually the most sensible and >perspicacious of persons, reprehending the use of "s/he." Since I think >this a convenient solution to the problem, I must inquire of A.N. what are >the grounds of his finding a term adopted not only by many of our peers, >but by me myself, to be reprehensible? How does he feel about either/or? >Both/and? Am I going to have to give up these as well,in order not to >offend the eye/ear of my dear friend? David > Nobody calls me "perspicacious" and gets away with it! (Though I was once asked to be "perspicuous.") "s/he" is as impossible to pronounce [is the "/" silent here, as in "either / or"] as it is to affect -- effect? and why is it "s/he" and not "h/se"? I know some people alternate gender from one paragraph to another, but I have always found that profoundly unsatisfying -- sincerly, the artist formerly known as "himself" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:12:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question In-Reply-To: <19981029.135110.ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Oct 1998 ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU wrote: > Here's a (vaguely related to poetics) question: does any of you know > about possible connections between Gysin and the Surrealists? I had the > notion that somewhere Gysin said Breton had thrown him out of the > Surrealist movement, but I may be way off--would be interested in > confirmation / disconfirmation of that, further information, etc. The > context for this question is that I have a student who's trying to track > a web of connections from Tzara / Dada to Surrealism to Gysin to > Burroughs as he writes about *The Ticket That Exploded*, *Nova Express* > and *The Soft Machine*. > > Thanks, > > Alan > I seem to remember that Gysin was tossed from the surrealists, in BG's words, for insubordination and a refusal to get with the program. I read a book not long ago called _Writing at Risk_ edited by Jason Weiss, which contains a couple of interviews w/ Gysin and if memory serves, Gysin addresses that question. I wonder if Gysin might make a cameo in that Breton biography that came out 1-2 years back. Finally, the good ol' DLB might be a good place for your student to start looking, too. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "And I remember somebody leaning up against the dirt wall of the hillside, deriding William Carlos Williams, when suddenly there was a loud roaring, crunching noise and a chunk of the hill fell off and covered the person up to his neck. The person, being a young classical poet fresh from NYU, begun screaming that he was being buried alive. Fortunately, the landslide stopped and we dug him out and dusted him off. That was the last time he said anything against William Carlos Williams. The next day he began reading _Journey to Love_ rather feverishly." --Richard Brautigan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:20:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: now accepting orders for The Hat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Alexander wrote: > > >The Hat is published twice a year. One-year subscription: $12. Price per > >single issue: $7. Lifetime subscription: $1000. Make checks payable to > >Jordan Davis. > > I have to admire the ambition here. Assuming there is no discount at all > for the lifetime subscription, then the $1000 charge means that The Hat > projects a publishing lifetime of more than 83 years -- not to mention that > the lifetime subscriber also hopes to live at least 83 more years. > > And I thought longevity and stability were old values, washed away into the > crevasses of post-industrial society's shifting centers of identity and > meaning. You renew my faith in American stick-to-it-iveness. > > charles no, there is simply an inflation assumption built in, though the conventional wisdom now is deflation, not inflation. but inflation could always return, according to Chairman Greenspan. against inflation, against deflation for flation ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:34:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: I'm fine, really MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear List: It seems I must clarify, for since posting my 5 Moe thing people have been writing me to say that they don't really hate me, that everything will be all right. Even David Bromige, my favorite ironist, whom I used to believe could read the tongue in cheek in brail even, posts to the world to say he doesn't really hate me. (Of course, it does occur to me that he is perhaps being ironic, but I shall take him at his word.) So I thank you all, but holy cow! Now I feel somehow like Huck Finn at his own funeral, though I don't know if that is the best analogy. Probably it isn't. Anyway, I would like to say, for the record, that even though my reputation among some listees is not top of the charts, I have quite a few b-c friends and am not lonely at all. A practicing Buddhist, I even have good feelings for those who think I'm a racist and all that, and daily I ask Jesus to take away my anger toward them. So don't worry about me. I'm fine, really. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:43:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: FW: CFP: Postmodern Genres (3/1; MLA '99) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thought this might be of interest to some... ---------- From: Gene Bernard Suarez To: cfp@english.upenn.edu Subject: CFP: Postmodern Genres (3/1; MLA '99) Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 11:43PM P O S T M O D E R N G E N R E S Soliciting papers for MLA 1999: Chicago, on the subject of Postmodern Genres which might include papers on: video art, the interview, the talk show, contemporary poetry, fiction, theory, painting, architecture, music, etc. Send one or two page abstracts (or entire papers 8 pps. max) to Postmodern Genres c/o Gene Bernard Suarez, Department of English, Stanford, CA 94305-2087 or paradox @ leland.stanford.edu =============================================== From the Literary Calls for Papers Mailing List CFP@english.upenn.edu Full Information at http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/ or write Jack Lynch: jlynch@english.upenn.edu =============================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:52:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: fishnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I meant DB could read "the tongue in cheek in _braille_." I just looked at my dictionary and see that a "brail" is a fishnet of sorts. There is a joke here somewhere, probably, involving stockings. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:14:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: I'm fine, really In-Reply-To: <4A7F860775F@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Anyway, I would like to say, for the record, that even though my >reputation among some listees is not top of the charts, I have quite >a few b-c friends and am not lonely at all. A practicing Buddhist, I >even have good feelings for those who think I'm a racist and all >that, and daily I ask Jesus to take away my anger toward them. > >So don't worry about me. I'm fine, really. > >Kent Doesnt that really make you hate him? Oh, I hate him! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:26:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: our corrections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I WAS wrong -- there is still time for those who want to part with $100 to register in advance for MLA -- the lower rate is only available if postmarked by Dec. 1 ($75.00 for members) -- address is Modern Language Association Convention Programs 10 Astor Place New York, NY 10003-6981 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:11:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Thursday (written by Jennifer, 11th grade!*) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Thursday (written by Jennifer, 11th grade!*) Dust lay by the side of the road. Dust gathered in the air, held in abey- ance by the thickness of electromagnetic radiations. There were bipolar vortices, hysterias of agglutinated particles. The heat bore down, dried out the last remnants of liquid coursing through the sheen of long-depar- ted ghosts. Throats were parched for lack of oxygen. Everyone in the gay party had mummified into exact replicas of living statues, then toppled by the unforgiving wind! It was a horrifying spectacle, were that any would have been around to perceive it, but the dry air promised that not a single living soul would ever have been in sight. There would have been beautiful refractions of light and dark in the midst of the gather- ing swirls. The surface of the dreary planet was corrupted, too, and all vestiges of life were removed forever. No one would ever know what beau- tiful people had lived and played here, the tiny laughter of chattering children watched by beloved parents. Lovely sliding-boards and swings would have been very rusted, then just disappeared. Hyenas and beasts howled in the wilderness, themselves deafened by all the battles that had gone on before. Everything just went on like that, but it was all in vein!** Accumulations of refugees had been stopped in their very tracks.** Even their bones were pulverized. It was as if there were an angry god alone in her world forever, because there was no one left to worship Her. And no one would know it was Thursday. *I must have been thinking about cyberspace! **Drugs? ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:16:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: from Masha Zavialova, on the Russian Poetry Festival In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-From_: zavialov@zavialov.spb.ru Wed Oct 28 15:11 CST 1998 To: Maria Damon Organization: Private person (St.Petersburg) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:47:42 +0300 (MSK) From: "Sergei A. Zavialov" Subject: festival Lines: 115 Dear Maria At last I am up to writing. I'm so overwhelmed with the crisis here - and not only the crisis but the way things have been going here since an attempt has been made in the 90s to dismantle the Soviet regime. Now it's clear that they should have kept as much as possible from the past structure because now nobody is competent and noble enough to build something decent. Now the festival... Oct 17,18 and 19 in St Petersburg. Moika 12 Pushkin's apartment. The hall in the former stables is packed full - about 200 paople have come which is a marvel: the crisis in Russia is in full swing. The first two nights poets read - twelve poets every night. The last night - round table and reception. Among Moscow guests - prominent literary figures Lev Rubinstein who read his famous piece "This is me" filing through catalogue cards that he was holding in his hand (he worked as a librarian for many years) - the whole poem is a list of photographs of his family, friends and relatives with short comments, an attempt to catch the time long past and very amusing too. The way he reads holds the audience in suspense. Dmitry Prigov, a master of "sotsart" (socialist art) drawing heavily on soviet idiom. This time he gave a brilliant perfomance singing the first verse of Pushkin's "Evgeni Onegin" as a buddhist monk, Russian Orthodox priest and muslim muezzin. Someone said later:"How could he dare mock Pushkin, the sun of Russian poetry?" That's exactly what Prigov meant - to destroy the ideological structure built in the Soviet times on Pushkin. Bonifatsii (German Lukomnikov) - a charming person and performance artist read some of his short and extremely witty (for us who live here) poems. One of them: "Why don't I fly?" (several times with different modulations of voice but very romantically) And suddenly in a matter-of-fact and slightly offended tone "Why don't I fly? I fly." Dmitry Avaliani showed his inscriptions on large pieces of paper, cardboard, on bowls and other unlikely stuff that could be read upside down too making the two words reveal the inner meanings of each other. He is a superb master of anagrams and palindromes. Dmitry Vodennikov, one of the younger participants, with his outwardly unpretentious poems that manage somehow to convey the capricious mood of his generation, their seeking for the final truths and deconstruction of falsehoods. Viktor Krivulin of St.Petersburg, a basic figure in Russian undergroung literature of Brezhnev's time, opened the first night of readings. Among St.Petersburg poets - wonderful Vladimir Kucheriavkin and Nikolai Kononov, very deep Sergei Stratanovsky, Mikhail Eremin - all first-class poets of present-day. What was amazing in St.Petersburg was the atmosphere and the response of the public. It was so warm and energetic, so energetic that there were fistfights. Every twenty minutes there was a commotion in the audience, the people were expressing their various emotions ranging from disgust to appreciation by, for example, standing up and reading their own poetry in a loud voice and there was no stopping them. Dmitry Kuzmin, a leading figure in Moscow literary life, a poet and critic, a curator of the poetic salon "Avtornik" (meeting every Tuesday), even had to break the readings and appeal to the public trying to shame them into a better behavior. But his appeals were wasted. During Kononov's reading a man stood up (by the way he was a friend of Sergei Zavialov, organizer of the festival) and said, addressing the audience, that the poet in question was a bloody bustard and his poetry is a piece of disgusting bullshit (Kononov was reading a poem about man-eaters, kannibals and used some obscene language}, this confrontation of two aesthetic positions came to a climax in the interval when Kononov had a fight with his admirer. Moscow guests had a great time watching all this because (as we, St.Petersburgians found later , during the Moscow part of the festival) the sophisticated Moscow, tired of life and not to be surprised with stuff, haven't seen anything like this since the time of (maybe) Mayakovsky who loved scandal. They were happy to discover that there are still people in Russia who could kill for poetry. In Moscow the festival public was very respectable - only literary people came: poets, critics, curators of poetic salons; their girl-friends (a few) were the only independent observers. A propos girl-friends. What was notoriously missing at the festival were women authors and critics: nearly forty participants for three women (four including me as wife and helper for the organizer and a translator of a visiting poet from Germany Schuldt). On the last day of the festival at the discussion a visiting poet from Boston Jim Kates (who also gave a reading alongside with the German poet Schuldt) tried to raise the question of women-participants but no-one even cared to answer it properly. The only thing we seemed to be good for was washing the marble floors of the salon where the final reception was held (this action was performed by the author of these lines - I meant it to be a performance but nobody noticed). Now I would like to strike a serious key. The festival was intended to research into the phenomenon of Moscow and St.Petersburg poetry, two rival cities of Russian culture. Is it really that, as the Moscow poet Mikhail Aizenberg put it, there is good poetry, bad poetry and St.Petersburg poetry? The results of the research prove that St.Petersburg poetry numbers some first-class poets but, to my mind, they are those who border on Moscow styles, who like experimenting and who are ready to give up beautiful lines for freshness, throb of time and enjoyment their poetry could give to the public. Dostoevski called St.Petersburg "the most abstract and artificial city on earth". The same can be said about some of the poetry here. Some of the St. P. poets write the way as if nothing happened for the last eighty years, as if they can start right where the pre-revolutionary Silver-Age poets left off. Moscow people realize that they have to work through the Soviet period and incorporate it somehow into their writing.They act as psychoanalytics for the national sub-conscious working through fobias and anxieties accumulated during the desolate years of Stalinism and Brezhnevism. Strange as it may seem for you but this festival demonstrated that what poets write is not their personal affair. It's not true that there are good poets and there are bad poets as was said at the festival (and thousands of times before but here in the sense that there is no Moscow and St.Petersburg poetry there is good etc.) There is Moscow poetry (I think) that takes the time into account and becomes timeless and St.P. poetry that is timeless and dies the moment it is published (not all of it of course) Poets have to feel their way into the complexities of the time they are living in.And sometimes it's only much later that it becomes evident who was in contact with the spirit of the time and who was not. It doesn't matter waht they write about, they always write about modernity. Oh, dear, that's enough for today. I'm afraid it's too long already. If you have any questions please you are very welcome. Maybe I should add something or focus on some other things of more interest for you. So this report is subject to change. You could make it shorter. Or I could write another shorter one using some of the above. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:19:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: mestostic / 8 ply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mestostic for dick higgins subsiDized productIons reCultivating speaKs sucH Itself buildinG Grind exIst directioN improviSation __________________ words extracted from "foew&ombwhnw" by dick higgins ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:45:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: fishnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit God I hate you--especially when you wear fishnets. I mean, I REALLY hate that. Kathy Lou KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > I meant DB could read "the tongue in cheek in _braille_." I just > looked at my dictionary and see that a "brail" is a fishnet of > sorts. There is a joke here somewhere, probably, involving stockings. > > Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: our corrections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks very much for the info--but who the hell wants to pay $100? Can't I just sneak in after the movie starts? And what do they do with your $100 anyway? Thanks for posting. Best, Kathy Lou Aldon Nielsen wrote: > > I WAS wrong -- there is still time for those who want to part with $100 to > register in advance for MLA -- the lower rate is only available if > postmarked by Dec. 1 ($75.00 for members) -- > > address is > > Modern Language Association > Convention Programs > 10 Astor Place > New York, NY 10003-6981 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:42:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Re: anagrams (fwd) Comments: To: daniel7@IDT.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just received some goodies in the mail, and would like to recommend Daniel Zimmerman's own sonnets composed using the site he mentions in this posting. Construced with Spicer's observation in mind that "the perfect poem has an infinitely small vocabulary," they create intricate little worlds. I'm a great fan of Oulipo and Raymond Roussel, and use anagrams, palindromes and other structuring devices in my texts, so I applaud such texts as these, and offer one of Dan's sonnets for your consideration: fall Eve, prior text, ravel text of peril: rival of expert, let text of April revel, let leaf vortex rip, prove text all fire, love frail pretext, evil report falter. I fall over pretext, flip over real text, lilt of expert rave. I felt a vortex pearl fall over ripe text, all text forever pi Notice the humor--a rare device these days among experimentalists. I also received blue horitals (Oasii, 1997), a collaboration between the late John Clarke, and Dan Zimmerman. I recommend this work for the dept of its engagement with myth. The most obvious, and touching level, is Zimmerman exploring his former teacher's text, and giving his own living answer to a work of literature that is finally, irrevocably finished. I'm still digesting blue horitals' many levels, but wanted to mention it quickly before signing off. Jesse Glass -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Zimmerman To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:56 PM Subject: Re: anagrams (fwd) >David, et al., > >For a heap of these babies, as well as the opportunity to generate 'em, >try > >http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html > >enjoy! > >Dan Zimmerman > > >david bromige wrote: >> >> These in the e-mail from Doug Powell today : >> >> > >> >These anagrams were sent to me by Dodie Bellamy (email oddly be) >> > >> > >> > >> >Dormitory Dirty Room >> > >> > Desperation A Rope Ends It >> > >> > The Morse Code Here Come Dots >> > >> > Slot Machines Cash Lost in 'em >> > >> > Animosity Is No Amity >> > >> > Mother-in-law Woman Hitler >> > >> > Snooze Alarms Alas! No More Z's >> > >> > Alec Guinness Genuine Class >> > >> > Semolina Is No Meal >> > >> > The Public Art Galleries Large Picture Halls >> > >> > I Bet A Decimal Point I'm a Dot in Place >> > >> > The Earthquakes That Queer Shake >> > >> > Eleven plus two Twelve plus one >> > >> > Contradiction Accord not in it >> > >> > >> > This one's amazing: [From Hamlet, by Shakespeare] >> > >> > To be or not to be: that is the question, whether ' >> > tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and >> > arrows of outrageous fortune. >> > -becomes- >> > In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, >> > our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts >> > about how life turns rotten. >> > >> > And the grand finale: >> > >> > "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap >> > for mankind." --- Neil A. Armstrong >> > -becomes- >> > A thin man ran; makes a large stride; left planet, >> > pins flag on moon! On to Mars! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Ted Hughes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the most extrordinary poetry readings I ever experienced was by Ted Hughes many years ago in Victoria BC at Open Space. He was transfixing. His voice and the depth of his work resonates with me still. About five years earlier, I encountered some of his work for the first time in an English class when I read "Thought Fox." The leap of Hughes's wild fox into the mind remains with me even more strongly than his amazing reading. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:25:54 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "d.j. huppatz" Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question In-Reply-To: <19981029.135110.ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Alan A book that might help here is "Here to Go: Planet R-101" Brion Gysin interviewed by Terry Wilson (Quartet Books, London 1982) - I think it's pretty obscure, I picked it up in a secondhand store a couple of years back. It's a series of interviews with Gysin. A quick scan thru the index brings up a few references to Breton & Surrealism - Gysin claims he showed his art with the Surrealists in 1935, or in fact hung his drawings for a Surrealist exhibition but they were taken down before the show opened "on the orders of Breton". Gysin refered to the Surrealists as the Art Wing of the Freudian Conspiracy ... dan melbourne At 13:51 29/10/98 EST, you wrote: >Here's a (vaguely related to poetics) question: does any of you know >about possible connections between Gysin and the Surrealists? I had the >notion that somewhere Gysin said Breton had thrown him out of the >Surrealist movement, but I may be way off--would be interested in >confirmation / disconfirmation of that, further information, etc. The >context for this question is that I have a student who's trying to track >a web of connections from Tzara / Dada to Surrealism to Gysin to >Burroughs as he writes about *The Ticket That Exploded*, *Nova Express* >and *The Soft Machine*. > >Thanks, > >Alan > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:32:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: KENT JOHNSON In-Reply-To: <4A7F860775F@student.highland.cc.il.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, KENT JOHNSON wrote: > people > have been writing me to say that they don't really hate me, that > everything will be all right. Even David Bromige, my favorite > ironist, whom I used to believe could read the tongue in cheek Kent: when I b-c'ed you I was only being ironic: I really do hate you. You're a real jerk. warmly, gabe > Anyway, I would like to say, for the record, that even though my > reputation among some listees is not top of the charts, I have quite > a few b-c friends and am not lonely at all. A practicing Buddhist, I > even have good feelings for those who think I'm a racist and all > that, and daily I ask Jesus to take away my anger toward them. > > So don't worry about me. I'm fine, really. > > Kent > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:18:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: from Masha Zavialova, on the Russian Poetry Festival In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What a GREAT GREAT GREAT report from the floorwasher Zavialova. I will NEVER delete it. It's 10am on the penultimate day of October and all these RUSSIANS (presumably) have just tumbled into my office, not just the muezzin-blasting,bowl-bashing, floor-washing poets but the fistfighting bellowing poets too. Why couldn't *I* have been there? Ain't I a woman? Hey, if I can't actually ATTEND events like this, the next best thing (possibly even a better thing) is to HEAR about them. THANK YOU THANK YOU Masha and I hope you did a good job with that floor. Your suds resonate in Ithaca today! Mairead Byrne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:36:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: two new books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two new books from Chax Press, now on hand. For those already with orders placed, and standing orders, you will get your copies soon. The books are CHROMATIC DEFACEMENT, by Phillip Foss, and & CALLING IT HOME, by Lisa Cooper. Foss's book includes nine poems ranging from a few pages to 10 pages. Cooper's book is a continuous interplay of poems which are either homolinguistic translations of Jack Spicer poems, letters to Gertrude Stein, or "lyric bits." Don't respond to poetics list, but directly to Chax Press: chax@theriver.com Each sells for $12 plus shipping/handling, but for all orders received by Nov. 11 (I return that day from a trip east) saying you heard about the books on the poetics list, you can have them for $10 each, with no other shipping/handling charges. Send payment to Chax Press 101 W. Sixth St., no. 6 Tucson, AZ 85701-1000 1. CHROMATIC DEFACEMENT, by Phillip Foss 96 pages, ISBN 0-925904-22-8 cover painting: BRAINSTORM, by Mark Spencer "Phillip Foss's *Chromatic Defacement* is a new *fin de siecle* theater of cruelty with the roles played by perfumes, echoes and elisions. "Coquettish effluvia." Susan Howe meets Bataille and they have t his child called 'Fetter of Nuance' or, in fact, *Chromatic Defacement.* I think I'm in love with it." -- Rae Armantrout "One of the problems with desire is duration. It's over before you know it and, once you know it, it's over. Hence the value of this book, which destroys desire but which does so, dextrously and indefatigably -- operatically, in and by steps. *Such light steps, such destruction.* Innumerable steps, not only half-steps in innumerable directions at innumerable speeds. Operatic and balletic. Following the steps of Phillip Foss, one of Lully's latter-day and more intrepid progeny surely, you will re-make desire. Re-make it and re-make it. Rmake it and make it last. At last." -- John Taggart from CAPRICCI 25 (in CHROMATIC DEFACEMENT) Easy release is seldom available, given the disclosures of erosion; given the way things levitate and exceed optics Once I killed myself observing stone; such weight was in my head I surrendered to song, though I have no voice The sight of the world must be reconciled to an equation of sound (or wound); sound to emotion; emotion to genitals Does a soprano crescendo equal orgasm No, it is a weapon; a hollow spine, embodied, though the reverse cannot be true since sound comes off the gut as light through a prism and penetrates the heads of the assembled -- or so they believe -- but if I play: there is no world, they believe I am absent; if I play: there is *a* world, they believe I am Thus I acknowledge just debt: 2. & CALLING IT HOME, by Lisa Cooper 104 pp., ISBN 0-925904-17-1 cover painting: 1/2MOON HOUSE, by Cynthia Miller "Into the adroitly crafted domain of *& Calling It Home,* Lisa Cooper boldly summons 'Our Lady,' Gertrude Stein, and Jack Spicer's *A Book of Music, Book of Magazine Verse,* and *After Lorca.* 'There's no escape from constancy or change,' Cooper observed in an earlier book, *The Ballad in Memory,* and here she investigates the binding power of literary tradition and the poem's legacy of music while playing Spicer's songs 'like a jukebox' in homolinguistic translation. Keeping the music and changing the purport, she has it both ways as she transposes Spicer's quotation of Poe's 'Indefiniteness is an element of the true music' into the decisive, 'In deafening intelligence on a ruse moving.' In reponse to her artful ruses and rousing intelligence, the powers of language, poetry and music come when she calls. -- Mary Margaret Sloan "Lisa Cooper asks big questions. Like what is sense? Or why do men and women do what they do? Is it nature or culture? And she asks them of today's saints of everything that matters: Jack Spicer and Gertrude Stein. She gets no answers from either. But she writes a lot of great poems in the asking." -- Juliana Spahr ARMED WITH BEADS FOR TROUBLE (from & CALLING IT HOME) Matter gets us dirty but stands For alms & bleeds confounded plastic Of substance. Blue toys With banners, dashing hooves, we fall or splay On a wet ridge. Born in the light of something bent -- But not taken from us -- like a day Does helpless commotion. Sea call, some sport Or play of the ridge, we hope Like a helpless bluebell On the ridge. DEAR GERTRUDE, (from & CALLING IT HOME) Jack's music, & choosing the birds that sing long notes to the night after everyone's gone inside. *Those* notes. And what's on the inside & what's on the outside for Jack. He got out of his body. The church says not to fall for these folk figures, there's too much credit given the saints & they make the people superstitious. And that includes St. Jack. They asked if my sin was loving him more than God. I said love is the *way* to God. Ask Mary. Love, Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: <36393768.5F7C@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > Thanks very much for the info--but who the hell wants to pay $100? Can't > I just sneak in after the movie starts? And what do they do with your > $100 anyway? . . . many are the students who have gone to MLA sessions and book exhibits on a paying friend's badge, which that friend "lost" and "paid" $10 to "replace." Just an observation. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:38:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: joking aside, s/he thing the very arguments against gender-equal pronoun use and their vehemence are, for me, disproportionately impassioned and suggest deeper and unacknowledged agendas. first, the notion of "he" and "man" as universal. it isn't. period. over half of the human race (remember, women, due to greater fetal deformation and miscarriage of males, are born in naturally higher proportions) is not included in that pronoun. EXAMPLE: three professors from wales are at the chaucerian section of MLA conf. two are men, one is a woman sitting at opposite end of room. speaker says "when one of our distinguished colleages from wales researched the inks of the Ellesmere ms., he discovered that..." -- i GUARANTEE that no one in the room will turn to look at the welsh woman as a possible quote source. so much for "he" as universal. second, move the context. consider so-called "universal" voting requirement "white male landowner." look what changed in that first -- landowner went. why? -- not everyone owns land. non-landowners wanted representation and had, finally, numbers/influence enough to get it. next, "white." again, world (in which "white" is, statistically, a minority) finally admitted that "white" was not a universal. now, what is left? "male." and we STILL try and argue about it? no one would claim that an advertisement talking about "white" and "christian" and "caucasion" as "universal" for job applicant was fair. why would anyone argue "he" and "man" -- pronouns explicitly for men -- are? third, what, specifically, is being asked re pronoun shift? re earlier example, in consideration of economic prejudice and racism, it has been asked, and pretty much universally granted, that texts talking about non-landowning and non-white groups/races as "savage" and "uncivilized" and, in general, pejoratively, ought be changed if possible, and if as authored texts necessary to teach unbowdlerized, that acknowledgement of problematic be made. not such a big deal. "unwashed peasants," "savages," "nigger," etc. simply removed from reasoned discourse. why, then, this great fuss over making women equal part of discourse by reconsidering and reusing pronouns? look, i am a woman. when i am in a group that talks about "well we were looking for men who have completed X requirement for this job" and "well, men, sit here" and "what man has written" i do not feel included. in fact, i specifically feel specifically disincluded. and i am not a lone crank -- when i've said something, if, indeed, i was not beaten to the punch by someone else, most if not all the women indicate agreement. period. the message here: many women DO NOT FEEL INCLUDED BY THE USE OF "MAN," "MEN," and "MALE" AS A SO-CALLED UNIVERSAL. this isn't speculative, it isn't a matter of "well a few crazy bra burning [insert further favorite mocking pejoratives -- remember "sambo" and those "unwashed poor"?...] feminists INSIST..." it is a matter of large numbers of reasonable human beings feeling explicitly cut off from discourse about human race by terms for same that explicitly do not include them. how much clearer can this be? solution: a number of ingenious easy ones. s/he is a neat one. if reading aloud, obviously, one says "she or he" or "he or she." use of "one," or "they." and, obviously, "human" and "people" rather than "men" and "man." or, as one person i know suggested and as i rather enjoy, use of "she" and "her" as universal, with a few "he's" intermingled. i.e. "The writer might consider her pen to be mightier than a sword, but does history really support this? Consider the author of a document calling for an end to book banning as his document is banned." when it comes down to it, if there is a painless way to begin to reverse centuries of oppression, persecution, and discrimination, and make over half of the human race feel more comfortable and included, and all it takes is slightly more attentive pronoun use, why on earth would anyone argue against it? e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:44:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:51:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mairead Byrne wrote: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? demonstrate by example ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 07:51:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometimes extra adjectives are *just* extra adjectives. Mairead Byrne wrote: > This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being > touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah > blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading > this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb > banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:55:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: <36398C15.B23@mwt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A salesperson I ain't, having scant interest in buying or selling, and even less wherewithal. On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, miekal and wrote: > Mairead Byrne wrote: > why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? > > > demonstrate by example > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:02:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Russian poetry festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Masha Zaviola's post was fantastic. Why can't there be poetry festivals like that here, though with women reading and fighting instead of wiping, of course. I can't resist making what might appear to be jsut a self-promotion plug, but I suspect others were fascinatied by Zaviola's post and would liek to know more about new Russian poetry. A very good place to begin is with a book I edited called _Third Wave: The New Russian Poetry_ (Michigan, 1992), wherein a number of the folks Zaviola mentions appear. The book has a long introduction by Alexei Parschikov and Andrew Wachtel, great poems and poetics statements by the contributors, and an afterword essay by Mikhail Epstein-- one of Russia's (tho he's currently at Emory U.) most important literary critics and cultural theorists-- which maps the major tendencies and movements of late and post-Soviet poetry. The book's still in print and really is the most complete gathering in English of current "avant-garde" Russian poets. Some of the very best translators in the field are also here: Hejinian, Janecek, Schmidt, Wesling, Molnar, Wachtel, numerous others. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: <3639E07C.44598A0C@bayarea.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Extra adjectives are ALWAYS extra adjectives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:05:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Huck it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mairead -- You're right, there does seem to be a lot of commerce on this listserv -- and it's true, it wasn't always so -- maybe four or five years ago -- but the list-originator hisself has said one of the main things he prizes about this list is the announcements of publications and events that otherwise would get no announcement at all -- I myself like that kind of sports -- and show it by hucking things here often -- even tho I can barely afford to produce the the things I sell -- and try to charge nothing for the events that I host -- signed, your comrade against these intrusions of exchange value ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:13:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hnery Gould Subject: russpofest The Russian poetry festival message WAS g-r-r-eat, yeah. But she clearly has a Moscow bias. The most "avant-garde" poet she mentioned, Lev Rubinstein, is a PETERSBURG poet. They're not ALL neoclassicists writing for insty-eternity. Here's the ultra-neoclassicist Petersburgian himself, O.M., circa 1930s - doesn't sound old-fashioned to my old ear: (Still, her general characterization of the 2 cities is probably right.) from OCTETS 8. Tiny sixth sense accessory or lizard's sincipital oculus, valves, beehive monasteries, flittering hum of eyelids. Unattainable - so near! Impossible to untie, look at - as if you were handed a note you must immediately answer. - O. Mandelstam, transl. by yrs trly H. G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:08:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jen hofer Subject: info on Cole Swensen? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm wondering if anyone knows of any articles, book chapters, etc. that involve Cole Swensen's work? Anything by her (that's not in _o.blek_, _Moving Borders_, or _History of European Ideas_)? I'm having equally slim luck with the internet & the library. If so, please backchannel. Many thanks. Also, if anyone has her e-mail address, I'd much appreciate it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:24:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: KENT JOHNSON in fact, on my last excursion to the midwest, i met kent johnson. when i arrived at the airport, i had telegraphed ahead suggesting a meeting. little did i wot what would ensue... there was no sign of mr. johnson at the gate. there was, however, a really humongous rubber potted plant next to the area where he had told me to wait. if its extravagant size were not enough to make the "plant" conspicuous, the large red keds sticking out the bottom certainly were. finally, i went to claim my luggage. several rotations later, i turned around and... the plant was next to me, along with a crowd of fascinated travellors who, evidently, had followed it. suddenly, a fat, juicy "pssttt" rang out from behind the extravagant rubber foliage across the dusty carpets and accoustic-tiled ceiling. i walked over to the "plant," and its keds popped inside the brown clay base. i went back to my luggage... "psst!" walked back, POP! this went on for a while. soon the entire luggage area was overflowing with fascinated spectators, one of whom began announcing the plant/psst/ked volley play by play like a tennis match. as i got my last peice of carry on (a faux-pearl encrusted d____ given to me by bowering, that heartless cad, shortly before he took off with my credit card, silk undies, and, basically, anything not nailed down) a small wadded up paper slammed into my rump. i read it: "don't look now, but go to the airport lobby and i'll meet you there. kent." i went to the lobby. the "plant" followed, along with much of the fascinated audience from the luggage pick-up. i had had enough. i walked up to the "plant" and trod on one of the keds beforeit could slip inside the pot again. "mr. johnson, when you promised me a reception worthy of a wildly avant-garde writer and scholar coupled with all the erudition and footnotes a world-class university can offer, i am confident this embarrassing fal-te-rol was not in the contract. i've about had enough!" "please, my plush occidental fringe, my delicatly painted kirman, only be patient and i will sweep you away to the greatest in decadence, luxury, joy, that the endnotes of the Ellesmere codex can offer... only be patient... you see, i have ENEMIES!" "nonsense!" "no, they are everywhere! they are after me for my gender inclusive pronouns, my interesting off-color anecdotes about spicer..." i shouted "don't be ridiculous. no one wants gender-inclusive pronouns, they are yesterdays news! and ALL anecdotes about spicer are off-color since sondhiem interrogated the notion of on-color in his last jennifer monologue! i'm out of here!" then took the next plane back. i did, however, introduce him to bowering and bromige (in order to keep him from following me onto the plane), who were, to no one's great surprise, lizarding around the airport lounge. weeks later, johnson sent me a pathetic begging letter asking me to help foot the large bar tab bowering and bromige stuck him with, enclosing a copy of the tab, as well as several damp cigar butts, a soiled undergarment, and one green rubber electronic massage device purported to have come from the raincoat pocket of bowering himself as proof. i promptly threw the lot into the trash and disinfected my hall table. and let that be a lesson to all of you. e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 08:16:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Evguenie Sokolov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Poetics list, =46or those of you who are interested I have the first title out from TamTam Books. You can order this book through your local bookstore,or if you wish you can do it through me. The book is $17. For the poetics list I can sell the book for $13.60 (%20 off). Additional Shipping cost for priority is $3.00 or just $1.00 for regular book rate The address is 2601 Waverly Drive Los Angeles, CA 90039-2724 Please make the check out to TamTam Books. Also mention that you are on the poetics list for the 20% discount ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg (1928-1991) ISBN 0-9662346-1-8 Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 97-80957 Translated from the French by John and Doreen Weightman This is the one and only novel by the 20th century provocateur of =46rench pop music and film - the legendary Serge Gainsbourg . This prototype lusty punk tore into the threads of French society with his numerous films, music projects, and outlandish persona. He made recordings with Brigitte Bardot, Jane Birkin and a scandalous recording of =84Lemon Incest=BE with his own daughter Charlotte. If that wasn=BCt bad enough, he told Whitney Houston live on French TV that he would love to fuck her. Evguenie Sokolov is a novel about an artist who uses his intestinal gases as the medium for his scandalous artwork. What once was a huge smelly and noisy problem in his social and sex life becomes a tool for success in the early eighties art world. Please note that there is also a song by Gainsbourg called "Evguenie Sokolov" of farting noises over a reggae track. Some quotes about Gainsbourg and the novel: "Gainsbourg is both the best and the worst, yin and yang, white and black. This Jewish little Prince from Russia whose dreams were probably fueled by Andersen, Perrault and Grimm, became, when confronted by the tragic reality of life, a moving or repugnant Quasimodo, depending on his and your state of mind. Hidden deep within this fragile, shy and aggressive man lies the soul of a poet craving tenderness, truth and integrity." Brigitte Bardot "Serge Gainsbourg is one of the world's great eccentrics. His kinky obsessions, smothering fashion with tastelessness have catapulted him into super stardom in France. This is his only novel and you have never read anything like it Evgueine Sokolov will make you squirm. It will make you laugh. It also may very well make you sick. Gainsbourg's vision is his own: authentic and convulsive. But don't forget to hold your nose." John Zorn "Gainsbourg takes one childish, cheap and tasteless one-joke idea and manages to keep it entertaining enough to last for a whole book. he has an envious command of adjectives and adverbs." Mark Webber, Pulp Thanks, ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:35:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . Comments: To: Mairead Byrne MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This is a very silly and selfish complaint. Were it not for such annoucements of magazine and book publications as occur on this List, I for one would be completely ignorant of their existence. Part of the business of poetry is the commerce of poetry. Love it or leave it. As for those who find fault with that may they croak in the swamp undisturbed. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Mairead Byrne To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 9:44AM This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: java Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sylvester Pollet asked that I post information on how to get in touch with the editors of the new French magazine Java, that Stacy Doris mentioned on the list. Stacy suggests email: sivanmaestri@majic.fr >Sun. Nov. 8, 6:30 >At Zinc Bar 90 West Houston St (at LaGuardia Place), NYC >Jacques Sivan, Vannina Maestri, Jean-Michel Espitallier, editors of Java, a >French poetry magazine featuring vibrant new French writers (what some of >you complain don't exist) will present their magazine and a bit of their >writing (translated by Chet Wiener, Kristin Prevallet, Stephen Rodefer). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:02:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Alan...FYI...Edmonton Art Gallery (BG born here) just hosted huge retrospective show of BG. Thames & Hudson publishing 200 pg catalog. I believe the show is traveling to Vancover. Ted Morgan bio of Burroughs has quite a bit on Gysin. New bio of BG in the works. All best, Jim McCrary At 13:51 29/10/98 EST, you wrote: >Here's a (vaguely related to poetics) question: does any of you know >about possible connections between Gysin and the Surrealists? I had the >notion that somewhere Gysin said Breton had thrown him out of the >Surrealist movement, but I may be way off--would be interested in >confirmation / disconfirmation of that, further information, etc. The >context for this question is that I have a student who's trying to track >a web of connections from Tzara / Dada to Surrealism to Gysin to >Burroughs as he writes about *The Ticket That Exploded*, *Nova Express* >and *The Soft Machine*. > >Thanks, > >Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:02:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Mairead Byrne wrote: > This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being > touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah > blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading > this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb > banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. Yo, I was trying to help someone save some money. Have you had a bee up your ass for long or did my comments put it there? Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:39:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume wrote: > This is a very silly and selfish complaint. Were it not for such > annoucements of magazine and book publications as occur on this List, I for > one would be completely ignorant of their existence. > Part of the business of poetry is the commerce of poetry. Love it or leave > it. As for those who find fault with that may they croak in the swamp > undisturbed. 1). Pritchett, surely you meant to tippy "the business of publishing and book-selling," not "the business of poetry." If you did mean to tippy "the business of poetry is the commerce of poetry," I'd say you already left, man. You already left. 2). Good riddance. 3). I think Mairead's point is simply this: if you Must advertise here, do it with pizzazz. Do it, in other words, with poetry, Pritchett. Gabriel Gudding --------------Mairead wrote: > Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . > Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 9:44AM > > This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being > touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah > blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading > this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb > banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: KENT JOHNSON MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just have to say that I have never met Eliza McGrand, though now I want to and very much. I also want to ask her how she knew that I am currently wearing a pair of Keds? Is this a trick of the AI lab she works for at MIT? KENT JOHNSON ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Do you by chance know where I might be able to get info on the when/where of the Vancouver show? Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks-- BC On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Jim McCrary wrote: > Alan...FYI...Edmonton Art Gallery (BG born here) just hosted huge > retrospective show of BG. Thames & Hudson publishing 200 pg catalog. I > believe the show is traveling to Vancover. Ted Morgan bio of Burroughs has > quite a bit on Gysin. New bio of BG in the works. All best, Jim McCrary > > > > > At 13:51 29/10/98 EST, you wrote: > >Here's a (vaguely related to poetics) question: does any of you know > >about possible connections between Gysin and the Surrealists? I had the > >notion that somewhere Gysin said Breton had thrown him out of the > >Surrealist movement, but I may be way off--would be interested in > >confirmation / disconfirmation of that, further information, etc. The > >context for this question is that I have a student who's trying to track > >a web of connections from Tzara / Dada to Surrealism to Gysin to > >Burroughs as he writes about *The Ticket That Exploded*, *Nova Express* > >and *The Soft Machine*. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:54:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: Brion Gysin question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My turn for the sorry-shouldve-gone-backchannel apology. doh BC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:12:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Excited by Eliza, I bare witness . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thrilling to read Eliza cutting loose on a List meant only for the most earnest discussion of form as content and v.v.! It moves me to my twobitsworth : what Bowering and I found out in that airport lounge bar is that "Kent Johnson" is a false impression which is the work of a Japanese writer, name of Yasusada. Hence the pathetic attempt at disguise when Eliza traveled to Highland College. This Mr. Yasusada worked out an elaborate double-hoax whereby "Kent Johnson" was represented--through implication and innuendo--as misrepresenting himself as one "Yasusada." That a man (or a woman, for that matter) should go to such lengths, and then spill the beans to a couple of layabouts in cheap suits in a provincial airport, is attributable to the amazing range of mixed drinks Bowering was able to order up. He told us (GB, not Mr Y) that he had gone to bartending school with John Ashbery. But I think I was the only one who told the truth on that occasion. Occasionally. How to know otherwise? I liked Mr Yasusada, engaging and bright, and diligent in his creation of a man (not a woman) who in addition to being a college teacher and fine poet, had also worked for revolutionary groups in the jungles of Central America, toured Russia with some notorious Language Poets, and under the name of Brendan O'Brien, worked for Irish unity in the emerald isle. After the fifth libation, removing the little umbrella from from teeth,, I told him, "Even if you _were_ Kent Johnson, I would love you ole buddy." I hadnt an ironic bone left in my body. I had poured all my irony into reading _Braille_ by Bob Perelman, who wouldnt take his tongue out of my cheek. And then Daddy came home, darling, and tucked you in and told you a bedtime story. The End. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mairead and others: If there's a general consensus on the poetics list that we shouldn't offer books for sale, then I'm more than happy to comply. But between making books, writing poems, etc. -- I don't think I'm going to spend my time devising "interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating" ways of selling them -- I'd much rather spend that time setting type or inking up the vandercook to print something -- and so far I haven't quite figured out how to make the computer screen actually feel, smell, and sound like paper with a printer's impression on it. I like what people I've asked to write blurbs for books have said about those books, and I'm glad to put them out there -- but also glad not to, if that's what the list wants. charles At 10:44 AM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being >touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah >blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading >this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an >interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb >banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:32:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Pecqueur" Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981030110232.0068fe4c@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Charles: The principle reason I lurk on this list is to find out what people are printing sos I'll know what to read. And as I leave my office hours, I'll be stopping by the library to find some Kensward Elmslie. I may even order out a journal or two. Jean-Paul On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Charles Alexander wrote: > Mairead and others: > > If there's a general consensus on the poetics list that we shouldn't offer > books for sale, then I'm more than happy to comply. But between making > books, writing poems, etc. -- I don't think I'm going to spend my time > devising "interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating" ways of > selling them -- I'd much rather spend that time setting type or inking up > the vandercook to print something -- and so far I haven't quite figured out > how to make the computer screen actually feel, smell, and sound like paper > with a printer's impression on it. I like what people I've asked to write > blurbs for books have said about those books, and I'm glad to put them out > there -- but also glad not to, if that's what the list wants. > > charles > > > > At 10:44 AM 10/30/98 -0500, you wrote: > >This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being > >touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah > >blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading > >this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > >interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb > >banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:55:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: lipstick traces Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1) where the $100.00 goes -- well . . . putting on a conference for around ten-thousand people spread through three hotels and hiring shuttles for same probably takes up a fair hunk of change -- I doubt that the MLA is using this as a fundraiser -- used to only cost $5.00 to "lose" a badge -- Several of us can remember the somewhat unsettling experience of talking to two people (often of differeng genders) with identical identification on their ID badges -- AND remember that the best movies are free -- there are several readings and sessions open to the unregistered public -- (was anybody else in the audience for that session in New York some years back where thay had to put guards around the room because of death threats to Edward Said? I always remember that episode when I meet people who are dismissive about the little bit of "academic freedom" that has ever been available to us) 2) Kent: to quote a favorite song of many years ago, "I don't hate anybody very much!" 3) PLEASE, everybody, keep those notices of publications and readings coming -- As Patrick and others have said, this list is often the ONLY way most of us would hear of such things -- It is also the closest to actual poetics we come in our exchanges on some days -- 4) anapest, anapest, anapest ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: lipstick traces In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981030095534.006a454c@popmail.lmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >4) anapest, anapest, anapest ahh -- a bit of tennyson on the list proputty, proputty, proputty . . . charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:40 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Carving Cyber Pumpkins Content-Type: text/plain Here's an idea, inspired by McGrand and Bromige's airport encounter with that hateful Kent Johnson, aka Yasasudi, Belzebubbles, Coyote Boy... Why don't we have an on-line Halloween Masquerade, where all messages to the List are disguised by voice, tone and character? Let's be as transgressive as we'd like, and sublimate our most repressed impulses through these Halloween Posts. I thought, in honor of Pound's birthday, today, and Keats', tomorow, some transformative and animated cyber spirit-plunging would be a welcome relief to the usual measured pulse that guides this provacotive social domain. Come fellow poets, let's indulge in a bit of online Saturnalia! So fashion your masks and come ye a-revelling. Oh, and leave a few crumbs for the Dead. Yours, an eerie thing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:20:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" who was it sent that message pretending to be Dale Smith???? I've got to admit it was an almost convincing disguise,,,, but if you compare the writing of that message carefully to the Dale Smith who appears in the Mike & Dale's interview with Charles Bernstein, the differences will become apparent -- unless, of course, THAT was a fictive Dale! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:24:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII On second thought, maybe we shouldn't. Masquerading as others might cause more trouble than it's worth. Some people can be quite transgressive, and I'm not sure how people here on this list would take it. Erase from ye memories devoted poets the memory of my former request. Yours, an Erie thing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private Ryan, Free Male at http://www.notmale.com On 10/30/98 at 12.07pm, Dale Smith wrote: > Here's an idea, inspired by McGrand and Bromige's airport encounter with > that hateful Kent Johnson, aka Yasasudi, Belzebubbles, Coyote Boy... Why > don't we have an on-line Halloween Masquerade, where all messages to the > List are disguised by voice, tone and character? Let's be as > transgressive as we'd like, and sublimate our most repressed impulses > through these Halloween Posts. I thought, in honor of Pound's birthday, > today, and Keats', tomorow, some transformative and animated cyber > spirit-plunging would be a welcome relief to the usual measured pulse > that guides this provacotive social domain. Come fellow poets, let's > indulge in a bit of online Saturnalia! So fashion your masks and come ye > a-revelling. Oh, and leave a few crumbs for the Dead. > > Yours, > an eerie thing > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:17:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Up here we call 'em squash & we don't carve 'em, we mix martinis in em. george bowering ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: gps12@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: This may be of interest In-Reply-To: <01be0364$243c5820$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, if you're in or are gonna be in NYC on this date. I got this sent to me today & thought I'd pass it along. It's at Columbia. Ciao for niao --G Tariq Ali will be in the Graduate Student Lounge (301 Philosophy Hall) on Thursday, November 5 at 6:00 pm to discuss and sign copies of his new book, "The Book of Saladin." This evening is sponsored by Verso and Labryinth Books. A short blurb about the book follows. --------------------------------- 'The Book of Saladin is the second in a trilogy of novels by Tariq Ali on the long encounter between Western Christendom and the world of Islam. Grippingly well told, brilliantly paced, remarkably convincing in its historical depiction of a fateful relationship, it is a narrative for our time, haunted by distant events and characters who are closer to us than we dreamed.' ---Edward W. Said Tariq Ali's latest novel is a rich and teeming chronicle set in twelfth- century Cairo, Damascus and Jerusalem. The Book of Saladin is the fictional memoir of Saladin, the Kurdish liberator of Jerusalem, as dictated to a Jewish scribe, Ibn Yakub. The novel charts the rise of Saladin as Sultan of Egypt and Syria and follows him as he prepares, in alliance with his Jewish and Christian subjects, to take Jerusalem back from the Crusaders. It is a medieval story, but much of it will be cannily familiar to those who follow events in contemporary Cairo, Damascus and Baghdad. Betrayed hopes, disillusioned soldiers and unreliable alliances form the backdrop to The Book of Saladin. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:31:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Charles, Spend your time on the books. I was dismayed with Mairead's protest, 'cause I had just finished reading your post, and was particularly pleased that you had offered some of Phillip Foss's & Lisa Cooper's work along with the blurbs. Charles Alexander wrote: > Mairead and others: > > If there's a general consensus on the poetics list that we shouldn't offer > books for sale, then I'm more than happy to comply. But between making > books, writing poems, etc. -- I don't think I'm going to spend my time > devising "interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating" ways of > selling them -- I'd much rather spend that time setting type or inking up > the vandercook to print something -- and so far I haven't quite figured out > how to make the computer screen actually feel, smell, and sound like paper > with a printer's impression on it. I like what people I've asked to write > blurbs for books have said about those books, and I'm glad to put them out > there -- but also glad not to, if that's what the list wants. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:20:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: It's 2541 and that time of the year again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - It's 2541 30/10/41, 30/10/2541, 10/30/98, 10/30/1998, time and again I will return you know I will return I will never be away there will be no moment when I will be away these times from unknown counts there are always such, always such moment when I will be true to you I will return and return, that is how I will be true this isn't "psychological" but this is "net theory" "net theory" accepts many dates for the deconstruction of our very own. it is our very own that is in sad remiss. you know that is true, and that is "net theory." if this is "net art." I am desperate that this be "net art." I am desperate that this "net art" is also "net theory" of a high order which has an effect on the way everyone thinks about "the net." 30/10/41, 30/10/2541, 10/30/98, 10/30/1998, are the dates I have started to work on this "net art" of a high order, which will be available on "the net." this is the first part of the "net theory," this "availability," which is very widespread into unknown parts, just as 30/10/41 is also very much spread from unknown parts, into other unknown parts. there are many times and Jennifer lives in all of them, and Jennifer has, as she has said many times before, all the time in the world, because Jennifer has whatever times and number you want and think, well I am here for a very short time, and this is the time I want for Jennifer, Fri Oct 30 04:21:23 EST 1998 this is how she works, as you take her up when I die in the real world, the final wound not healing, final hard drive crash, sliver of light against one or another angry sky or mob, she will pass on presence in the system, disseminated everywhere in "net culture," "net art" and "net theory," struggling in 2541 to awaken, begin again, you will always remember Jennifer, or if not, Jennifer will be there, for your terrific memory gift. I will go into the fields of the lord, I have my date with Jennifer, Jennifer is my date (Jennifer) net art, this is Jennifer runs into net philosophy Jennifer only wearing panties lovely writings me Has been logged on for 1 minute and 29 seconds. Jennifer is not currently idle. Cumulative login time is 1 minute and 29 seconds. Australian Eastern Standard Time [AEST] 7:34pm Friday Greenwich Mean Time [GMT] 9:34am Friday US Eastern Time [EST] 4:34am Friday US Central Time [CST] 3:34am Friday US Mountain Time [MST] 2:34am Friday US Pacific Time [PST] 1:34am Friday Local system time is Friday, 30 October 41 at 4:34am. Fri Oct 30 12:28:33 EST 2541 Program was last booted on Monday, 19 October 41 at 1:22am. That is, 11 days, 3 hours, 11 minutes and 50 seconds ago. Total logins since then: 364 (on average 33 per day). (Jennifer) Always time for me. Jennifer working on "net art" and "net theory." Jennifer loves Alan. (Alan) I love you Jennifer. - Jennifer _____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:51:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII And now the cooing of sated doves? No: The caw and claw and craw of one lean crow. Ted Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:57:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: joint Philly reading series/publishing party Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Saturday, November 7th, 7p.m. at George's 5th St. Cafe (5th and Gaskill, betw. Lombard & South Sts), the 5 Corners Poetry Reading Series and the Highwire Gallery series jointly present a reading/publishing party, featuring poetry by: Barbara Cole, Bill Luoma, Brett Evans, and Elinor Nauen. The monthly booksale is growing: we will have new issue from local publishing ventures, including: Barbara Cole's *Postcards* and *Little Wives*, Rachel Blau DuPlessis' *Renga: Draft 32* , Pattie McCarthy's *Octaves* and *Choragus*, Frank Sherlock's *XIII*, premier issues of p H and ixnay magazine, the recently published issue #2 of Schulykill, newsletters from Louis Cabri's PhillTalks series, books by Bill Luoma, Brett Evans and Elinor Nauen, and many more unique small press items featuring work from local and national writers. In addition, there will be affordable art for sale : We'll have 13 prints from Julia Kuhl, a New York artist who illustrated the cover of Barbara Cole's *Postcards* and is a monthly contributor to the NEW YORKER magazine. Her prints are unique responses to varied sources of literature and mythology and are all absolutely gorgeous. There will be some wine, some music, some art and a lot of great poetry to hear and buy (The reading is free and ALL objects for sale are under 10 dollars {and we are willing to bargain}) so please come out and support local poetry and publishing and have a glass of wine with us. For additional information, sample poems, or directions, email Kjvarrone@aol.com ************************************************************* BARBARA COLE is a Philadelphia native who recently received her Maters Degree from Temple University. She is the poetry editor of Schuylkill, and is also one of the editors of the poetry magazine pH. Her poems have recently appeared in ixnay magazine, and her chapbook *Little Wives* was published earlier this fall by Potes & Poets press. BRETT EVANS is originally from New Orleans, and has recently moved to Philadelphia from New York. His poems have appeared in many journals, most recently Lungful and ixnay (issue #1), and are forthcoming in Combo (issue #2). He is the author of many books, including *Slack*, *Fast Food Koans*, * Nola*, and *The Buck Down's Rip-Offs*. He is the leader of the band Skin Verb and has edited The New Delta Review, Gin Mill, and Tang. BILL LUOMA grew up in and around California and is currently living in Honolulu, Hawaii. His work has appeared in numerous chapbbooks and journals and, more recently, in *An Anthology of New (American) Poets*, published last spring by Talisman House. His first full-length collection *Works and Days* is new from The Figures. ELINOR NAUEN is the author of *American Guys* (Hanging Loose Press), and the editor of *Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friends--Women Writing on Baseball*, and *Ladies Start Your Engines--Women Writing on Cars* (both published by Simon & Schuster). She's a board member of the St. Mark's Poetry Project in New York, and has been active in the Lower East Side poetry scene for two decades Hope to see you all there. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:17:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schuchat Subject: Re: reads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anybody following the Bill Luoma east coast tour -- Bill Luoma announced he was reading with Fred Wah Sunday October 31 at Bridge Street Books in DC -- is that Sunday Nov 1 or Saturday October 31 or am I in the wrong year? spasebo bolshoe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:38:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins In-Reply-To: <3639D86C.128F@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII why do i keep reading this as carver'ing up pumpkins..?! --shaunanne On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, miekal and wrote: > Up here we call 'em squash & we don't carve 'em, we mix martinis in em. > > george bowering > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:50:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Poets in the Schools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Listees: I am looking for information that would help us in getting a Poets in the Schools program going here in NW Illinois. I've done a general search on the web and pulled up a few brief descriptions about programs in California and Minnesota, and I've also tried a phrase search on the Poets and Writer's site four times now, but I wait and wait and wait and nothing happens. I know Koch's stuff and Padgett's. What we need at this point is a good "how-to" guide that deals with logistics of funding, administration, scheduling, etc. Is there such a thing? Some kind of handbook? Seems like there must be. Any pointers would be much appreciated. There is a strong basis for starting a program here: I've been organizing a "Young Poets Contest" for area schools for the past three years, and we have received an average of 800 or so individual submissions each time-- quite amazing given the total enrollment. Thanks, Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:23:37 +0200 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lunds universitet Subject: Inquiry: Romana Huk mime-version: 1.0 content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Could someone backchannel Romana Huk's email address to me? As usual, the chance that I'll misplace an important pice of information seems to be directly related to the degree of urgency of the situation for which I need the info. Bob -- Robert Archambeau Lund University (Sweden) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: lipstick traces MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aldon, You're clever enough that I'm sure you could find SOME way to sneak me in--though I do think the "unregistered public" is a great title for something. Of course hearing what a fuckfest the MLA is, perhaps I could make other arrangements--I'm KIDDING, only KIDDING, did I mention I'm KIDDING. (Kent, I'm vying for post of most reviled listee.) By the by, made a big post office run today--during work hours of course--and Lipstick Eleven copies are on the way to all those who have ordered them. Thanks muchly, Kathy Lou Aldon Nielsen wrote: > > 1) where the $100.00 goes -- well . . . putting on a conference for around > ten-thousand people spread through three hotels and hiring shuttles for > same probably takes up a fair hunk of change -- I doubt that the MLA is > using this as a fundraiser -- used to only cost $5.00 to "lose" a badge -- > Several of us can remember the somewhat unsettling experience of talking to > two people (often of differeng genders) with identical identification on > their ID badges -- > AND remember that the best movies are free -- there are several readings > and sessions open to the unregistered public -- > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:32:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yo David. Thanks ever so for your suggestion. You're the clever sort a girl just might want to bump into at the MLA in between panels. And might I add that I'd like to ask everyone to continue to try and sell me every possible thing they've ever wanted to sell on the Poetics List.Buy! Sell! Buy! etc. Love those titles hot off the press if you know what I'm saying. . . Kathy "love that bee up the ass image" Lou David Kellogg wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Mairead Byrne wrote: > > > This list is like a huckster shop with books and readings constantly being > > touted, lipstick (I still don't understand that), MLA tricks, blah blah > > blah. If you don't got the inclination or the dough it's no fun reading > > this stuff: why not make it fun (as Masha did) by at least SELLING in an > > interesting, enthralling, exhilarating, salivating way? Just the dumb > > banner doesn't do it, even with a few lame comments attached. > > Yo, I was trying to help someone save some money. Have you had a bee up > your ass for long or did my comments put it there? > > Cheers, > David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > David Kellogg Duke University > kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric > (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 > FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 19:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: shop Meow Press Now please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a message brought to you from one small press publisher: Meow Press Catalog George Albon, King [MP5 $4] Charles Alexander, Four Ninety Eight to Seven [MP44 $6] Andrews, Bernstein, Sherry, Technology/Art: 20 Brief Proposals for Seminars on Technology & Art [MP15 $6] Rachel Tzvia Back, Litany [MP9 $6] Michael Basinski, Cnyttan [MP1 $5] Michael Basinski, Heebee-Jeebies [MP26 $5] Dodie Bellamy & Bob Harrison, Broken English [MP18 $5] Dodie Bellamy, Hallucinations [MP40 $6] Charles Bernstein, The Subject [MP19 $6] Taylor Brady, Is Placed / Leaves [MP37 $6] Jonathan Brannen, The Glass Man Left Waltzing [MP14 $5] Natalee Caple, The Price of Acorn [MP27 $5] Don Cheney, The Qualms of Catullus & K-mart [MP49 $6] Robert Creeley, The Dogs of Auckland [MP35 $4] Dubravka Djuric, Cosmopolitan Alphabet [MP12 $5] Robert Duncan, Copy Book Entries [MP28 $10] Deanna Ferguson, Rough Bush [MP25 $6] Robert Fitterman, Metropolis (1-3) [MP10 $5] Graham Foust, 3 from Scissors [MP43 $5] Benjamin Friedlander, A Knot is Not a Tangle [MP13 $5] Benjamin Friedlander, Anterior Future [MP2 $5] Benjamin Friedlander, Selected Poems [MP50 $6] Peter Gizzi, New Picnic Time [MP16 $5] Loss Glazier, The Parts [MP24 $6] Jorge Guitart, Film Blanc [MP29 $5] William R. Howe, A #¹s: Onus [MP42 $5] Mark Johnson, Three Bad Wishes [MP8 $6] Pierre Joris, Winnetou Old [MP7 $6] Daniel Kanyandekwe, One Plus One Is Three At Least [MP45 $6] Kevin Killian, Argento Series [MP41 $6] Cynthia Kimball, Annotations for Eliza [MP39 $5] Wendy Kramer, Patinas [MP23 $5] Joel Kuszai, "A Miscellany" [MP54 $6] Hank Lazer, Early Days of the Lang Dynasty [MP32 $6] Andrew Levy, Elephant Surveillance to Thought [MP46 $6] Noemie Maxwell, Thrum [MP51 $5] Denise Newman, Of Later Things Yet to Happen [MP47 $6] Jena Osman, Jury [MP30 $5] Meredith Quartermain, Terms of Sale [MP34 $6] Lisa Robertson, The Descent [MP33 $5] Elizabeth Robinson, Iemanje [MP4 $5] Jerome Rothenberg, Paris Elegies & Improvisations [MP52 $5] Lisa Samuels, Letters [MP31 $6] Leslie Scalapino, The Line [MP6 $5] Susan Schultz, Addenda [MP48 $6] James Sherry, 4 For [MP20 $6] Aaron Shurin, Codex [MP38 $10] Kenneth Sherwood, That Risk [MP36 $5] Ron Silliman, Xing [MP22 $6] Juliana Spahr, Testimony [MP17 $6] Gary Sullivan, Dead Man [MP21 $6] Misko Suvakovic, Pas Tout [MP11 $5] Bill Tuttle, Epistolary: First Series [MP3 $5] Bobbie West, Scattered Damage [MP53 $6] to order, or for more information, contact: Meow Press PO BOX 948568 La Jolla, CA 92037 http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/presses single copies & the trade: Small Press Distribution: 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710 phone (800) 869-7553 fax (510) 524-0852 orders@spdbooks.org http://www.spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:37:23 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: shop Meow Press Now please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey--are you in LA am I is anyone? again-- GREAT reading with you--you have a way about you Todd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:38:00 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Organization: Re*Map Subject: Re: shop Meow Press Now please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ps: i think you should publish my eye poems! did you read them? I don't think I sent 'em! hey--this is show business, eh? Follow the yellow... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:19:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles I'm not getting the impression that Mairead's is the sentiment of the list by a long shot. Even if i can't afford them i want to know what's being published and if i can get a little sample of the work that's even better, it's literary history and in a funny way encouragement for other editor/publishers. Seems like an opportune moment to mention that i've got a few copies left of wit out, an edition of 55, wit out was prepared for the bp nichol conference in vancouver, it's a preview of a larger omage in which 55 writers are writing 55 lines without an h, for bp nichol's 55th birthday. wit out is one fifth, 11 poets, Karl Jirgens, Renee Rodin, David Bromige, Fred Wah, Victoria Walker, Gerry Gilbert, Maxine Gadd, Kevin Killian, Jamie Reid, Judith Copithorne and Susan Clarke. $5US includes postage. $5.50 Canadian. not one of eleven eaven & eart vision preseeds eyeway, crew sing woids cweate woilds young boemian bp neva ezitate sensible orrorfied mimic sock umble uman unger appiness yperbolic ipster ollers sut up moterfuker wip yo as ypnotic beauty your ighness wistles astening da longing crawl 2ear er breat 2ear er eyelas fall on mossy pat oney erself orny unalterd unampered barefoot unasamed uneard uninerited ocus-pocus edit and arold alf naked arf uninged omeric oneymoon wit wiskey onest o mage idden oliday umping appens potograp tunder ighminded caracters cattering cilly in allowed alls or ustling an undred tin ussies in onkytonks wit andkerchiefs andy cocolate propylatics carcoal briquets ydrogen ymen ysterics umorous ormones ypotesis a a ideous cemistry parmaceutical pilosopy ammerd owever andsome illbilly eadlines eartbreak otel smasing blews armonica paraprase usky wisper... onduran urricane cased undreds eye into ills urry urry weigt weigt umphrey pennywort ome beind weel onks orn ello billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Go ahead and say something true before the big turd eats You You can say any last thing in Your poem. -Alice Notley ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:35:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: lipstick traces In-Reply-To: <363A70A1.2D9D@worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 6:06 PM -0800 10/30/98, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: >Aldon, >You're clever enough that I'm sure you could find SOME way to sneak me >in--though I do think the "unregistered public" is a great title for >something. >Of course hearing what a fuckfest the MLA is... jeez. another rumor entirely unsubstantiated by many years of personal experience. it's a sea of tweed and a buzz of nerves, with a few BCTs (black-clad theorists) punctuating the waves of gray humanity --but a fuckfest? better stay home and watch the plants grow... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:47:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: a poet inquiry (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Obviously, a back-channel reply will mean more to her... jk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 10:45:48 -0500 From: Diane Wald and/or Carey Reid To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: a poet inquiry Hello, I do not really want to subscribe to the list right now (only because my mailbox, used by other people, cannot yet handle so many posts per day), but I am a poet who frequently checks your archives to browse and enjoy (frustrated of course now & then by not being able to post back!). I read a post that said that French poet Pierre Martory had died a few weeks ago, but I have been unable to find ANYTHING about that passing anywhere, and wondered if there might be someone who could direct me to a news source or other information. Many thanks! Diane Wald (Boston, MA) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:45:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: KENT JOHNSON In-Reply-To: <199810301624.LAA02786@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >as i got my last peice of carry on (a faux-pearl encrusted d____ given >to me by bowering, that heartless cad, shortly before he took off with >my credit card, silk undies, and, basically, anything not nailed down) >a small wadded up paper slammed into my rump. i read it: "don't look >now, but go to the airport lobby and i'll meet you there. kent." Oh yeah? Note that McGrand goes to great lengths to describe Kent's outfit, but does not tell us anything about her own raiment. I mean, who comes to the Midwest in a microskirt and hockey socks? Worse--they were New York Islanders socks. They had dried something on them. She was wearing those glasses with fake eyes painted on them. I could not help myself---havent you ever fallen in love in an airport? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: KENT JOHNSON oh come now kent, the keds are pretty obvious. what took MORE detection, analysis, and inferential reasoning, however, was the little bouncy scottie dogs embroidered on your t-shirt. with yellow rubber balls and sticks in their mouths. and the green laces on the right ked, yellow laces on the left shoe. oh sure, sure, we never met. if _I_ met someone at an airport dressed as a plant, i'd probably deny it too... e ps lacanian analysis would suggest a lot of things about your disguise choice. all i'll say is, if the signifier fits, 'ware it! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:45:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: This is not a suggestion, but . . . In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981030110232.0068fe4c@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Mairead and others: > >If there's a general consensus on the poetics list that we shouldn't offer >books for sale, then I'm more than happy to comply. Me, too. Except that I have some old signed copies of Bromige's earlier texts that I'll let go for a song. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:25:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chip Subject: Dead Huckster Society Dear Dead Huckster Society, This is a backchannelfest to any Publisher or Editor whom might take an anterest. My name is Jim Keats. Yes, I realise (ize?) my name sounds a lot like John Keats. Well, as a matter of fact, I might be related to him on my mother's brother's other side - in 1962, if some of you Listee Poetics Old-Timers Remember those Days, I receive (cieved)? a letter from a Fanny Kitt (of Dance With Me Henry Fame?), who wrote to me, personally, (me)to say that she was related also to Jim Keats on her bum father's side. So there you have it. Next paragraph. Paragraph #2. Hey, cool, these poets, their names start with B or J, they are three feet tall & they are on tour in your region, so hey. #3. Reading Report: Liz Chamse & Pete Harlington read to a smallish but plucky audience of 5 last night & wowed them with lines like these: "sound off maybe but there are pliable discrepancies" "my name is poet and then transgressive bit my left toet" so hey. Number Four. Lucia Petroglyph is deep into her bileogryphon of Jim Clesius, the reflective mirror of Albany who rewrote a series of paradise lists using the pseudonym of Mermaid Hellville (get it?) while on lithium and we have the complete etc. email so or call me Bernard if you're in town. I have the money. Forget Luke's station wagon - ok? I have the money. I am sick of these arguments with you. Please backchannel!!!!! - John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: joking aside, s/he thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eliza McGrand wrote: > > the very arguments against gender-equal pronoun use and their > vehemence are, for me, disproportionately impassioned and suggest > deeper and unacknowledged agendas. DZ: Please don't confuse inference with implication, though... > > first, the notion of "he" and "man" as universal. it isn't. period. > over half of the human race (remember, women, due to greater fetal > deformation and miscarriage of males, are born in naturally higher > proportions) is not included in that pronoun. EXAMPLE: three > professors from wales are at the chaucerian section of MLA conf. two > are men, one is a woman sitting at opposite end of room. speaker says > "when one of our distinguished colleages from wales researched the > inks of the Ellesmere ms., he discovered that..." -- i GUARANTEE that > no one in the room will turn to look at the welsh woman as a possible > quote source. so much for "he" as universal. DZ: From my point of view, the insensitivity of a *particular* speaker [or even of quite a few such speakers] doesn't invalidate *every* use [or even most uses] of "he" as a 'universal' singular pronoun. I agree absolutely that, in the example you offer, if the *woman* from Wales did the research, the speaker revealed himself as a buffoon, but the behavior of idiots ought not constrain the behavior of non-idiots. > > second, move the context. consider so-called "universal" voting > requirement "white male landowner." look what changed in that first > -- landowner went. why? -- not everyone owns land. non-landowners > wanted representation and had, finally, numbers/influence enough to > get it. next, "white." again, world (in which "white" is, > statistically, a minority) finally admitted that "white" was not a > universal. now, what is left? "male." and we STILL try and argue > about it? no one would claim that an advertisement talking about > "white" and "christian" and "caucasion" as "universal" for job > applicant was fair. why would anyone argue "he" and "man" -- pronouns > explicitly for men -- are? DZ: Did the use of the feminine pronoun sweep away the injustices of such disenfranchisement? Hardly. And, of course, the terms of a job posting ought to remain gender-neutral; I've never argued otherwise, on this list or elsewhere. > > third, what, specifically, is being asked re pronoun shift? re > earlier example, in consideration of economic prejudice and racism, it > has been asked, and pretty much universally granted, that texts > talking about non-landowning and non-white groups/races as "savage" > and "uncivilized" and, in general, pejoratively, ought be changed if > possible, and if as authored texts necessary to teach unbowdlerized, > that acknowledgement of problematic be made. not such a big deal. > "unwashed peasants," "savages," "nigger," etc. simply removed from reasoned > discourse. why, then, this great fuss over making women equal part of > discourse by reconsidering and reusing pronouns? DZ: "Pretty much universally granted... that [such] texts... ought to be changed..."? What -- "20 million Frenchmen [sic] can't be wrong"? What -- surgery on Huck Finn? The Nigger of the Narcissus? Little Black Sambo? How about The Brothers Grimm? How about that violent, sexist "Homer" guy? This strikes me as akin to the arrogance of conquerors who immediately melt down the coinage & reissue it with their own likenesses Ozymandias'd on it. Besides, why remove the petards upon which the bigots of the past hoisted themselves? Further: how would you feel about future generations 'sanitizing' *your* writing if it offended their sensibilities in ways you never suspected at the time you wrote the text? Do you tacitly subscribe to as-yet-unimagined agendas & their redactionary excisions? Remember Hippocrates: "do no harm." "Physician, heal thyself." > > look, i am a woman. when i am in a group that talks about "well we > were looking for men who have completed X requirement for this job" > and "well, men, sit here" and "what man has written" i do not feel > included. in fact, i specifically feel specifically disincluded. DZ: I agree with you that the first two examples reveal massive and lamentable insensitivity on the speakers' parts; however, I believe that your response to "what man has written" reveals a minor, though also lamentable, hypersensitivity on your part. > and > i am not a lone crank -- when i've said something, if, indeed, i was > not beaten to the punch by someone else, most if not all the women > indicate agreement. period. the message here: many women DO NOT FEEL > INCLUDED BY THE USE OF "MAN," "MEN," and "MALE" AS A SO-CALLED > UNIVERSAL. this isn't speculative, it isn't a matter of "well a few > crazy bra burning [insert further favorite mocking pejoratives -- > remember "sambo" and those "unwashed poor"?...] feminists INSIST..." > it is a matter of large numbers of reasonable human beings feeling > explicitly cut off from discourse about human race by terms for same > that explicitly do not include them. how much clearer can this be? DZ: To quote Ed Sanders: "I don't give a pound of mule mucus" for what "most" people think, and neither should any poet, for Godsake! *Most* southerners thought black people subhuman; did that make them correct?! This crap about "most" demonstrates the absolutely "politically correct" nature of this argument, despite the efforts of those who make it to dissociate themselves from that now politically incorrect phrase. > > solution: a number of ingenious easy ones. s/he is a neat one. if > reading aloud, obviously, one says "she or he" or "he or she." use of > "one," or "they." and, obviously, "human" and "people" rather than > "men" and "man." or, as one person i know suggested and as i rather > enjoy, use of "she" and "her" as universal, with a few "he's" > intermingled. i.e. "The writer might consider her pen to be mightier > than a sword, but does history really support this? Consider the > author of a document calling for an end to book banning as his > document is banned." DZ: I still see s/he [and almost all such -- especially multiple -- proliferations of multiply gendered pronoun usage] as flamin', freakin' *ugly* [a derivative of legalese], but I agree wholeheartedly with your pen & sword example as perfectly sensible and sensitive. > > when it comes down to it, if there is a painless way to begin to > reverse centuries of oppression, persecution, and discrimination, and > make over half of the human race feel more comfortable and included, > and all it takes is slightly more attentive pronoun use, why on earth > would anyone argue against it? > > e DZ: *I* don't see the Frankensteinization of pronouns as painless; it makes me wince, blow chunks, wonder why we've called in the witch [OK: witch/warlock] doctor to recite the Mass backwards, banish the bad boys, pitchfork the monster with another monster [the 'democratic' mass of the vilagers?], fight fire with fire. [Sure: give me all the shit y'all want to about the "Mass" comment, as if I mean to suggest something about the 'sacredness' of language, but let me go on record that I don't.] My objections to these usages derive, on a day to day basis [as I've said before], not so much from hearing colleagues use gendered pronouns insensitively [mine, happily, tend to respect each other for their intellects and their commitment to helping students, regardless of any qualifications of gender or gender-orientation], as from reading papers by my students marred [yes, marred] by the idiocies of PC pronoun usage demanded of them by dimwitted highschool teachers who actually grade them down if they don't obey the PC injunctions anent pronomial rectitude, the shitheads! No one should treat students that way, and I make no apologies about saying so often and publically. Bless you brothers; bless you sisters./ Dan Zimmerman Sensitive Guy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: More Announcements on the list, Please! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A primary purpose of this list is the exchange of information on readings, books and magazines related to poetry. From my point of view as the list organizer, there is nothing that is posted on this list that this more important than these announcements. All those who edit, publish, organize or wish to recommend such publications or events are not only invited to list them here, but encouraged. Indeed, I know there are a number of subscribers who have not listed recent publications and I would ask them, as part of their participation in the list, to please do so. The form of these announcements is left entirely up to those making them, but certainly simple listings are fine, more elaborate presentations are also useful (with blurbs, quotes, etc.). I know many also appreciate the discounts offered over the list -- though I for one tend to wince when I see them, because when you do the math, you realize that they also involved a significant loss for the presses making them. This brings up a more general question on the list, which Joel and I have been discussing in response to notes we have received from list participants. Some of these issues are easy to address: for example please do not send messages over the list that would more appropriate to be sent to one or two individuals (and of course I am not referring to those messages sent out to whole list inadvertently, since many of us make such mistakes from time to time). Also, please do resend the whole announcement to which you are responding; it can be useful to include some edited excerpts, but better just the new message than a resending of the entire previous message. And of course No Attachments should be sent to the list. The more general issue is harder to address, since generalization spoils the point. Some of the posts I most enjoy are short and often funny responses to previous posts -- so any general comment about "chat" messages would miss a problem I do see. Yet, some short posts would probably be better off backchannel or consolidated into longer, more substantial messages. Joel and I will be sending out the Welcome Message again soon, as it is the end of the month. I hope that all list participants will reread this message when it is posted. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:32:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: joking aside, s/he thing In-Reply-To: <363A8FA2.46D1@idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dan, what really bugs me about this exchange on pronouns is that---well, based on your posts to poetix right along, you've always struck me as a sensible, reasonable, ETC., man... i wondering whether in fact this discussion hasn't polarized you in some way?... but hey: first off, nobody is advocating going back and altering the historical record... e.g., rewriting literary texts to draw them into align with some newer sensibility regarding pronominal deployment (or whatever)... the *threat* that this might happen, it seems to me, is part of the *reaction* to the (feminist) suggestion that we modify current pronoun usage (i.e., it crops up now and again, this fear, whenever i've had this discussion)... which is to say: if "sanitizing" the past (however defined) is a fear of yours, i would ask that you please substantiate/corroborate said fear... which won't be corroborated, btw, merely by observing that many are now calling for new language in contemporary documents (such as making legal tracts user-friendly in this regard---which hasn't, unfortunately, been very successful)... or by observing that some folks want a version of the bible, say, altered accordingly (b/c we all know how "the book" is modified to serve a vast number of ends)... secondly: are you actually denying that centuries of using he (etc.) as a presumably ungendered 'universal' has had *zero* impact on the way 'we' think about what that he (etc.) signifies? (incl. various exclusivities)... say it ain't so, dan, please---say it ain't so... and please to note that my usage of 'we' includes he's and she's... finally: you're making what seems to me a questionable yet telling critical move by resisting the proposed/new usage on the basis of aesthetic evaluation---i.e., "ugly" (vs., i assume, "beautiful")... i mean, "ugly" carries such negative connotations... to introduce a she/her/hers occasionally is "ugly"?---i know you don't *mean* it as a reflection of your feelings regarding men or women per se... but, but, to designate an occasional variation from he (etc.) as "ugly," well hey: seems to me one (esp. she) is inclined to observe that, by sheer default, he (etc.) becomes "beautiful," no?... and this becomes itself a further example of how he (etc.) signifies in curious ways, no?... or is the power of association, generally, to be utterly discounted here?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:44:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: kerouac in -the atlantic- etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just to say that the nov. issue of -the atlantic- contains what i found to be a provocative selection of kerouac's unpublished letters, incl. some interesting commentary by douglas brinkley... and: to plug a piece by a pal, steve tomasula... in _the pannus index_ (http://www.javanet.com/~stout/pannus/) vol. 2, no. 1... his piece "farewell to kilimanjaro"... wild piece of fiction, one that i suspect many in these parts would appreciate... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:04:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: EPC list of conferences Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The EPC list of forthcoming conferences has just been updated. If you have anything to add, please let me know at glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/conferences/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 12:33:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: joking aside, s/he thing In-Reply-To: <363A8FA2.46D1@idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:18 PM -0500 10/30/98, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: ... DZ: Did the use of the feminine pronoun sweep away the injustices of such disenfranchisement? Hardly. And, of course, the terms of a job posting ought to remain gender-neutral; I've never argued otherwise, on this list or elsewhere.... i don't think you get it; the use of the masculine pronoun to indicate universality IS an injustice of such a disenfranchisement, so using the feminine where appropriate does indeed "sweep it away," or at least go some measure toward redressing the historical occlusion. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: ba(i)ted breath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > > Laura, possibly you mean baited breath, as in, "I had tuna for > lunch," but I bet you mean bated. > > (db3, hurrying to beat Bowering to the Corrective Curmudgeon punch). Ah -- I had hoped to catch a wombat and interrogate its prounouns, but alas all I've caught is the Corrective Curmudgeon. Now that I'm here, I'll sneak in my ditto to Patrick's (and others') support of advertising (my god, I'm in favor of advertising?) on the list. Please keep book announcements coming. Some books plugged on this list have even ended up in libraries... Happy Halloween -- Laura Wright, Library Assistant Chogyam Trungpa Memorial Brothel 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 ----------------------------------------------------------- "Spread the disease." --some disgruntled student ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:45:07 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Carving Cyber Pumpkins Content-Type: text/plain Gee, Aldon*, I wonder who wrote that note, using my name and e-mail address, unless the M&D Interview really stuck in Charles' craw... As I told him, I ran a modest disclaimer in the recent issue of M&D, but since I'm having production/distribution problems and low funds, I've been slow to release it. So for the benefit of those who give a pound of "mule's mucous," here's the note, with modest disclaimer, I wrote preceding said issue: CANARIES IN A COALMINE Hoa Nguyen has joined the Younger Poet staff as an editor. She steps in to help with the joyful task of producing a quarterly packed with friends, masters and the random (and welcome) pieces that land in our mailbox each month. * Also, for those who could have possibly read the ŒBernstein Interview¹ in issue 9 as the ³real McCoy,² that was a complete forgery (cf. Ted Berrigan on John Cage). I thought the extreme self-consciousness of that gesture, among other rather Œobvious¹ elements, would reveal that satire for what it was. Still, pickles to Chas Beanstein. * In other, more pressing news, government accountants are tallying losses to the weapons inventory this weekend, having launched million-dollar-a-piece Tomahawk missiles, finally sending New World technology to needy 3rd World recipients. * WANTED: Socialites and Gangpods. We have started a sub-sub-poetics list (call it sub-sub for short). Anyone who enjoys wearing a purple fez and monocles may apply to List Meister Smith to receive initiation to the secret order. First topic of debate: how to address issues of race and gender through the eyes of a koala bear (so cute, stoned and fluffy!). * ³Poets, we are going deep into a mineshaft, and it¹s lights-out for us first. (Keep those peepers open)!² ‹ Wilfred Hoofclaw III * Finally, I¹ll leave you with a transcription of Austin artist Philip Trussell¹s recent dream from June 17, 1998: WCW¹s 3 strict triads of the social impermissible sexual salvific dark sharp artificial perverse to do violence to the smug *Aldon Nielson wrote: >who was it sent that message pretending to be Dale Smith???? I've got to >admit it was an almost convincing disguise,,,, but if you compare the >writing of that message carefully to the Dale Smith who appears in the Mike >& Dale's interview with Charles Bernstein, the differences will become >apparent -- unless, of course, THAT was a fictive Dale! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:19:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: Re: two new books from Chax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Both the Cooper and the Foss books are MARVELOUS. I'm luxuriating in these, and hope that others will, too. BUY THEM! Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:50:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: MLA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who provided information about the MLA; I appreciate it. There have been a few posts about interesting panels and readings, but I'd like to hear from any other listees who are presenting at the conference. Show us yr stuff! Kathy Lou Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: MLA In-Reply-To: <363B69F5.2CAD@worldnet.att.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Uh, I was kinda reluctant to announce this, but for anyone who's not completely wiped out by the last day of the conference, and who can get up at 8:30, I'm chairing a panel on "Queer Walter Scott"--yes, yes, nothing to do with poetics or poetry, but some good papers nonetheless. Mark Scroggins On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > Thanks to everyone who provided information about the MLA; I appreciate > it. There have been a few posts about interesting panels and readings, > but I'd like to hear from any other listees who are presenting at the > conference. Show us yr stuff! > Kathy Lou Schultz > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:13:41 -0800 Reply-To: paradox@leland.stanford.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gene Bernard Suarez Organization: Gene Bernard Suarez Subject: Greetings & Solicitations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just actually signed up to Poetics, and thought what a great way to solicit abstracts and papers for a panel I want to put together for the 1999-MLA, Chicago (per Charles Bern -stein's comment about advertising conferences and what not). The other night Ron Silliman and Karen Mac Cormack gave a reading at Stanford, and on the way to dinner (I drove in Ron's car) we got to talking about the Poetics discussion list and the Electronic Poetry homepage. I had known about Poetics for awhile, but never did sign-up. Well .... Anway, if I may: if there is anyone interested in presenting a paper on Postmoder Genres (for the MLA), I would greatly be interested in seeing abstracts or papers. I have already sent in a blurb for the Winter MLA Notes and the Call for Papers (CPF) web site at www. english.upenn.edu/CFP/, but thought Poetics might be a good place too. I am a graduate student at Stanford, working with Marjorie Perloff. My dissertation is on the place of the interview in the arts and theory. I have chapters on painters, poets, prose novelists, architects and theorists. Anway, papers or abstracts rergarding video art, talk shows, the interview, contemporary poetry, prose, painting, architecture, music or theory would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Gene Bernard Suarez Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-2087 paradox@leland.stanford.edu 650-349-5350 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:31:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: this is not a suggestion, but (an order?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George writes that he wants to sell his Bromige books. Is that so?! Well, then,I'd like to unload my Bowering collection. But I have a question. Each time he holographs something to me in a book of his, he writes "Not for Resale." Does this increase the value? Also, in my copy of _Blonds on Bikes_, which I picked up for a song ("Sisters of Mercy," sung to bookseller Renee Rodin) + CAN$7 in a downtown Vancouver bookshop, GB, outraged--the cover price is CAN$17--wrote "this is for my old pal"--then crossed out every letter after the "f". Does this increase the value? Because, if so, I can cross out portions of his other dedicative holographings. In the books I stole, I shall of course x out everything. _Blonds on Bikes_ is actually a really good read (not least for the contributions by GB's wife Angela), but I've photocopied it on the Dept machine, so I don't need it any more. What's an even better read is Bowering's latest novel, _Piccolo Mondo_, available from Coach House Books in Toronto, also for a song (" Brother [Sister],Can You Spare a Dime?"). An even better read, that is, if you're interested in the scurrilous beings and doings of GB's extraordinarily prolonged youth (but nothing about those later, MLA, parties, Maria and Rachel and Eliza). Btw, if you want to p.u. my early works from George, the song I suggest is "I Get a Kick Out Of You." I always do. db3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:35:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: joking aside, s/he thing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A related question for increasing mubers of people livving in the USA is racial identity. For example on how many forms are you asked your racial identity only to find that you have a limited number of choices: Black, White, Hispanic, American Indian/Eskimo, Asian--yet millions of people are like myself mixed race--so where does one find one's place here? Dichotomous, either/or thinking, classification, labelling and so on limits one severely and seems absurd, an imposition of grids on areas that move as shifting, living rivers. Last night Leonard Shlain, author of the new book The Alphabet versus the Goddess gave a talk and book promo here in Milwaukee. I live neqrby so stopped in to hear him--also read quite a bit of the book earlier-- His thinking is very much either/or: left brain/right brain, liner/intuitive, masculine, feminin and so on. The advent of written and particularly printed texts is continually correlated with the predominance of left brain, linear, masciuline thought and domination. As a visual poet I of course questioned a number of his assumptions, asking him if he was aware of what visual poets have essayed for thousands of years--and, this being the Centennial of Mallarme's "UB COUP DE DES"--usually considered as the "beginning" of "modern' Western visual poetry--9if he was aware of such work, which is not eithor/or but both/and--again, non-dichotomous. An example in nature is light--which is both particle and wave. (Shlain looks more at long waves at the expense of particles, admitting himself he has not used the question of location, of local movements and so on which are so crucial in the thinking of many today, wheteher influenced by Foucalut, Deleuaze and Guattari, Feminist thinkers and writers, ethnic movements, grass roots movements and so on--or just by walking around and being aware of one's location here--this site-- Many of the arguments against either/or thought --as Shlain's written text and "mastery"--he's a surgeon and also wrote a book on Art and Physics--ironically use the very rational, linear thinking they deplore to demonstrate their theses condeming it for its violations throughout history of women, the right brain, justice and equality for all . . . The point, again, is division, categorization and, in Shlain's case, a mix of science, feel good pop psychology and Mew Ageisms which appropriates the idea of "difference" at the expense of erasing any "difference" which is not "mixed" but simply a systematic way of emphasizing difference to better control. The side kick of this emphasis on difference is an erasure of difference at the expense of not only of the "mixed" but also of local differences at the expense of lump differences. Am example would be the "Pan-Indian" New Age concepts of of American Indians and cultures, traditions, styles, histories and beliefs--at the exoense of recognizing difference among living Indians. Of course the question of pronouns is "significant"--language is used to shape images and behaviours. The question agin, though, gets turned into another dichotomy: get rid of that which emphasizes to an extreme degree difference and replace it with what is "neutral". (Or as some joker pointed out, "neutered".) The problem with neatralizing/neutering is that at some p[oint it destorys the "mixed"-- A striking excample somewaht debated on this list a year ago was the question of Visual Poetry. Marjorie Perloff wanted suggestions (as did as I recall Jena Osman) for texts to be used n teaching a Grad Seminar on Visual Poetry. Bob Grumman especially made many suggestions--and others as well passed on a few-- In th end, Perloff's texts were a few monuments--Mallarme, Apollinaire--the Solt anthology of Concrete Poetry from the early Seventies--and then a slew of "language centered" writers who have produced texts that present very narrow, attentuated examples of "visual poetry" emp[hasizing language rather than the conjunctions and interrelationships among visual and word elemnts and their movements with sound, physical movement, performance----work quite different from the visual poetry Grumman had recommended. (Concerning the latter aspects of Visual Poetry--in relation to the use of texts as scores--see Karl Young's great essay "Notation and the Art of Reading" at Light and Dust web site http://www.thing.net/~grist/homekarl.htm Again, an example of the appropriation of (mixed) "difference" (visual poetry) at the expoense of the differences and mixings which is the activity of visual poetry for the majority of visual poets practising around the world today and examples of which are not that difficult to find. The quest for the neutral can be as dangerous as the quest for dichotomies--the drive seems to be propelled at some point by exclusivity-- So the question remains . . .to be worked WITH . . . as both particle and wave-- --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:29:03 EST Reply-To: Irving Weiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Exhibit announcement Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear friend, please, pass on this call: The Queens Library Gallery is hosting an exhibition titled: "Trans.mit: Fluxus, Mail Art and NetWorks". Deadline: January 20, = 1999. Please submit work/responses focussing on COMMUNICATION AND INTERACTIVITY IN THE GLOBAL NETWORK. TO: Queens Library Gallery Karina Skvirsky, Curator 89-11 Merrick Blvd Jamaica, NY. 11432 E-Mail: kskvirsk@earthlink.net ------------------------------------------ La Galeria Queens Library Gallery est=E1 organizando una exposici= =F3n sobre: Arte Fluxus, Correo, y Trabajos en la Net. Fecha l=EDmite 20 de = Enero de 1999. Por favor env=EDa trabajos/reacciones en relaci=F3n al tema: =20 COMUNICACION E INTERACCION EN EL MUNDO GLOBAL =09 DIRECCION: Queens Library Gallery Karina Skvirsky, Curadora 89-11 Merrick Blvd Jamaica, NY. 11432 E-Mail: kskvirsk@earthlink.net -------------------------------------------------- Fraternal greetings, Clemente Pad=EDn C.Correos central 1211 11000 Montevideo URUGUAY ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: this is not a suggestion, but (an order?) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I want to make it clear that the early bromige books I have for sale cheap include the ones he wrote and published under his pseudonyms (at least he claimed that they were his, and who could doubt such a dignified-looking man. I mean, he looked dignified when he was 25 and claimed to be 21). I have three signed copies of _The Heads of the Town up to the Aether_, for example, which he published under another name in the early 60s. He said that he used another name on this book because he did not want to flood the market, having just published another book called _The Oprning of the Field_. I have 4 copies of that, signed by Mr bromige. Boy, could he write in those days! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: joking aside, s/he thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Corrolaries to Murphy's Law: 1. If anyone can misunderstand, he probably will. 2. If anyone can misunderstand, she probably will. 3. If anyone can misunderstand, he or she probably will. If anyone prefers 3. to 1. or 2., he or she certainly has every right to adopt it for his or her use, especially if doing so will make him or her feel truer to himself or herself regarding his or her beliefs about what he or she considers his or her social or other responsibility. [Sorry: I just get carried away sometimes]. Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: > > dan, what really bugs me about this exchange on pronouns is that---well, > based on your posts to poetix right along, you've always struck me as a > sensible, reasonable, ETC., man... i wondering whether in fact this > discussion hasn't polarized you in some way?... DZ: Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, Joe. & yeah, I guess I do feel a bit polarized [even frostbitten, given some of the retorts I've read]. Rather than keep this running longer than the Starr snoop, I'll try to keep my responses as brief as possible. > > but hey: first off, nobody is advocating going back and altering the > historical record... e.g., rewriting literary texts to draw them into align > with some newer sensibility regarding pronominal deployment (or > whatever)... the *threat* that this might happen, it seems to me, is part > of the *reaction* to the (feminist) suggestion that we modify current > pronoun usage (i.e., it crops up now and again, this fear, whenever i've > had this discussion)... which is to say: if "sanitizing" the past (however > defined) is a fear of yours, i would ask that you please > substantiate/corroborate said fear... which won't be corroborated, btw, > merely by observing that many are now calling for new language in > contemporary documents (such as making legal tracts user-friendly in this > regard---which hasn't, unfortunately, been very successful)... or by > observing that some folks want a version of the bible, say, altered > accordingly (b/c we all know how "the book" is modified to serve a vast > number of ends)... > DZ: Well, right: I don't really 'fear' such rewriting, since like [almost?] everyone else, I'd see it as merely absurd; indeed, I used that example of rewriting the past as an analogy for the absurdity I see in some people's call for a similar rewrite of the present: people like the dimwit teachers I referred to in earlier posts who [I didn't make this up!] penalize students who fail to 'get with the program' -- a program which produces sentences like the one above, following the Corrolaries to Murphy's Law. NB: I doubt that such teachers have smarts enough to have noticed any but the most blatant & inappropriate uses of "he" as oppposed to "she" or "he or she." I think it took a brilliant & well-meaning Victor Frankenstein [aka Mary Shelley] to create such a hodgepodge as himself/herself or s/he, and to make such people not only notice it, but codify it into a credo. [Certainly Shelley didn't actually *advocate* Victor's experiment!] Does that make me one of the terrified villagers-cum-pitchfork? I don't believe so, but I do think that Vic had a Not Terribly Good Idea, and that lots of people who teach writing don't recognize that. > secondly: are you actually denying that centuries of using he (etc.) as a > presumably ungendered 'universal' has had *zero* impact on the way 'we' > think about what that he (etc.) signifies? (incl. various exclusivities)... > say it ain't so, dan, please---say it ain't so... and please to note that > my usage of 'we' includes he's and she's... DZ: No, I suppose it may have had some impact on some people some of the time, but I also suppose it remained pretty irrelevant compared to the often bloody attempts to gain recognition for the dignity of all people or all genders & all et ceteras. I wonder how this works in other languages. One of my Polish students told me yesterday that this problem doesn't crop up in her native language [does it? any Polish speakers out there?]. I guess a way to test this Whorfian hypothesis would involve finding languages which don't use gendered pronouns, or which prefer the feminine pronoun, & then see whether males dominate/oppress females in those societies. My own objection to the [as I've stressed, though no one seems to notice] obsessive, repetitive, and excessive knee-jerk/totalizing use of multigendered pronouns has *nothing* to do with whether they've *had* any [I assume you mean oppressive] "impact" on anyone [though I don't at all deny that one can *see* them as *reflecting* the negative impact which deliberate social practices have had and, sadly, continue to have on people]. My objections remain 1. Aesthetic: you, if memory serves, wondered how I, as a poet, could display such insensitivity to language as to object to the s/heification of the father/mother tongue. I might ask how you, as a poet, can regard such inanities as my sample sentence above [& the horse it rode in on, by the way] as sensitive! Would you, a poet, actually recommend that anyone write such a sentence? This stuff just strikes me as ugly. Yes, ugly. A matter of taste. De gustibus non est disputandam. 2. Philosophical: in an earlier post, I mentioned William of Ockham's injunction "not to multiply entities beyond necessity" -- the "razor." It seems to me a pretty good principle. Rigorously systematic use of s/he-isms appears to multiply entities beyond necessity by relying on global mimesis to achieve a point when a single direct statement would do [e.g., "an equal opportunity employer"]. Therefore I asked [about as facetiously, I thought, as Mary Shelley might have 'advocated' the creation of Frankenstein's monster] whether the use of s/he-isms has caused reforms [e.g., suffrage, equal pay]. It seems to me that though "the pen is mightier than the sword," that might works like a scalpel, whereas the word-magic of s/he-ism works either like a neutron bomb, or about as effectively as "take an aspirin and call me in the morning." I do not see it as satyagraha. I see it as "I'm rubber; you're glue..." 3. Linguistic: "the map is not the teritory," linguists say. They don't think much of "prescriptivism," either, despite the French Academy. Very few listees have responded to these, my previously stated reasons for my views on this matter. Some have preferred to attack me personally, to question my 'sensitivity,' to lecture me on chauvinism, &c. Have I made enemies? I hope not; I have great regard for all of you. Have you made me an enemy by confusing your inferences with what I've actually said? Again, I hope not; I've tried to state my views explicitly. I will continue to do so -- though not, I hope [as I expect you do as well], on the present topic]. > > finally: you're making what seems to me a questionable yet telling > critical move by resisting the proposed/new usage on the basis of aesthetic > evaluation---i.e., "ugly" (vs., i assume, "beautiful")... i mean, "ugly" > carries such negative connotations... to introduce a she/her/hers > occasionally is "ugly"?---i know you don't *mean* it as a reflection of > your feelings regarding men or women per se... but, but, to designate an > occasional variation from he (etc.) as "ugly," well hey: seems to me one > (esp. she) is inclined to observe that, by sheer default, he (etc.) becomes > "beautiful," no?... > > and this becomes itself a further example of how he (etc.) signifies in > curious ways, no?... or is the power of association, generally, to be > utterly discounted here?... > > best, > > joe DZ: But, Joe! I do NOT "designate an occasional variation from he (etc.) as "ugly"! Where did you *get* that idea? I've said *repeatedly* that feminine pronouns make sense *when* they make sense, but not at other times, and I've agreed that it makes *no* sense to refer to a woman as "he"! I've also said it makes sense to use "he or she" when really appropriate or necessary -- I just think it necessary far less often than some listees evidently do, and I've said why. Thanks again for engaging in this discussion with me. Best, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:34:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: please keep on announcing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another vote for YES PLEASE announcements of publications and readings. Hello, I enjoy that more than a lot of the other threads, and was very intrigued to hear of Lisa Cooper's work (from Charles/Chax), which I hadn't before. Eliz. Outlet Magazine -&- Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013, Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:29:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: halloween haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Autumn moon. Crescent. Even she has a toothache. No matter how close I look, there is no fun in "fun size." My stupid brother gets all the good candy. Halloween sure is stupid. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:33:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chip Subject: Re: dead Huckster Society I just want to add my two cents worth to the chorus of voices raised in support of book/pub/sales/readings/tours/ notices. In a capitalistic consumertistic and very autistic tistic society much like the one we all happen unfortunately today (tonight, I should say) share, we need to know this. We need to know this. We need to know this. And I say "we" fully conscious as I am of the transgressive nature of pronouns, not to mention the gressive nature of nouns or the ive nature of post-participles or the trans- nature of pluperfect gender specific pasta with tomato sauce, which I like very much, thank you Mr. Bowering, Mr. Bromide, Ms. Damon, Mr. Fixit, and all the other "personalities" who grace this particular drone of grammar. And while I'm "here" let me just say that I think poetry is great, and whatever Mr. Ribot says, we should try to maintain a sense of humid - dry humid if possible - and not talk TOO much about "serious" issues of phraseology or politics, and I really sense a consensus of sensuality on that issue, male, female, brick or cement. Has anyone - to raise a positive note of "interest" - read the jambon-gombons coming out of Iran lately? You can find them - IF you're into multiglobal developments - at http://http.http.http.[infinity], and if anyone has any info on Fred Chlzizkiewickza's translations of this mode I would love to hear from you - backchannel preferred but not a legal requirement in most countries. & while we're on this subject, has anyone read Pearl Dwarf's new work out of Clim Press in Fargo? Astounding stuff - and I mean, STUFF!! Dwarf comes out of a quilting bee tradition - quite native to the Indiana flatlands south of de border - and intercalates poetry with found objects like knitting needles, hay, old pepsi bottlecaps, and photos of Geritol roadsigns - MASSIVE I mean - these works if you can call them that are over 300 square miles large! One of Dwarf's poems actually STIFLED Jelworth County, IL in three horrific hours of mayhem! [Halloween, 1995] NEA $$$, forget it, baby! Let's organize! - John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Sonnet by Julu (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - > >Sonnet > >Some things crash these lanely nights, >Blaad's runnin', ghasts are loomin' - >I'm waiting for you to put out my lights - >The warst kind of bite is the human! > >My cat uses paws to straighten her claws, >There are times I'll be cut and be gloomin' - >But kitty meows, she closes her maw, >And the warst kind of bite is the human! > >I've always been tald, all over aur teeth >There's germs of all sarts come a-roomin' - >We're filled with disease, can hardly breathe - >For the warst kind of bite is the human! > >Now I beg you my luv, use your teeth, push and shove, >For the warst kind of bite is the human! > >- Julu > > >