========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:55:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: on some of Kate Armstrong's work MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT When I do anything when viewing much of Kate Armstrong's work at http://eventfoundation.securedata.net/kate/projects.html , I find that she has made the action meaningful, made the action into a poetically significant verb that dominates or overrides the typical association with the action; in "Cold Chinese Salad", for instance, the action of clicking and thereby closing the window becomes an event of sudden and unexpected energy, part of the piece itself, rather than just the closing of a window after the piece is finished. The action finds/discovers the human dimensions of closing a window, which we usually take for granted as a kind of page-turning or switch flipping, like turning off the lights when you exit a room. All the programming in the world doesn't get much better than this, but affords opportunity to discover/create a wider range of the human dimensions of technology/programming/science, and a wider range of new 'media language', a wider realm of expression in this language; if the programming does not provide such energy and human relation, if the actions are not poetically significant verbs but instead allow the default language of functionality to blandly assert itself and dominate the imaginative and poetical, then the loudest statement is from the machine itself, not the artist, ie, the medium is indeed the message, in such case. While programming does not often get any better than what she has already done, in the sense that she has created some wonderfully magical pieces--which is, after all, a big part of the 'goal' for artists, surely--it does expand the range of possibilities dramatically. Those who sustain invention over the longer run generally have found knowledge of programming useful in moving forward rather than repeating themselves. There are many artists who either have given up on web/net.art or are predictable by now, are repeating themselves. I love Armstrong's line "Because art attracts pretenders" in her piece "Explanation". No questions are posed explicitly in this simple yet effective piece (though they teem implicitly). Yes, this is unfortunately the answer to too many questions--but her line also suggests a wider meaning to the word "pretenders": art attracts people who 'pretend' in many ways, like Chrissie Hynde and the Pretenders...or storytellers, those who are interested in pretense in a constructively imaginative way, and this informs the line with something other than censure of the milieu in which art operates, opens it up more broadly to a deeper consideration of the nature of art and its milieus, so that we come to see art as attracting "pretenders" of many types, not all necessarily insufferable but perhaps equally desperate to "pretend", though in different ways, and with different goals. More generally, one is struck with her writing. She's an excellent writer. We read on her site that she has studied philosophy, which isn't surprising; she has a delicious and highly intelligent sense of language and humour, her own voice. She retains a high and exhilarating intellectual energy and humour in her work. We don't run across titles as good as "Delicate Weasels" very often, which is another finely concentrated piece on her site. The writing is spare and telling. The use of media and tech is in synch with the writing. The verbs drive the work, and the idea of the verb extends beyond the word into the interaction and, occassionally, the animation. "Because elevators were all invented by the same person." Good elevators. Ding. See also http://katearmstrong.com . ja ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 01:30:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 30 Aug 2002 to 31 Aug 2002 (#2002-201) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bernadette Mayer's The Formal Field of Kissing, Catchword (1990), still in print, translates Catullus and Horace. Bill Luoma translates Sappho, Besantius, & Simias in An Anthology of New (American) Poets, Talisman (1998). Mark McMorris is also trained in the classics, while he hasn't published translations I think his poetry reflects it. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 02:34:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom! Are yuo referring to Bulato''s vispo & soundpo anthologies? If so - perhaps you might know where i can get a couple of soundpo ones? I have the original vsipo in Russian. Mikhail Magazinnik In a message dated 8/31/2002 7:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, trbell@COMCAST.NET writes: > 3. The translation issue I'm intrigued by at the moment is helping native > speakers of other languages put their English (which tend to be very good > but perhaps'academic' or arcane) into something that makes sense for anglo > academic and/or practitioner audiences (audiences?). For example, this > was > my role with Dmirti Bulatov for his two anthologies and here it was > compounded since many of the articles he either translated first into > Russian (or in many cases had it done) before were 'translated' from > Russian > into English. i do regret that I didn't have the time to do more than what > I would consider a 'passable' job on this. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:21:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: <20020901040443.NAYU960.mta019.verizon.net@acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael, others: As a participant in Bernadette Mayer's "Experiments in Poetry" workshop at The St. Mark's Poetry Project probably 10 years ago, I wanted to point to her tremendous significance in turning a whole new generation of New York City poets, including myself, on to the richness of classical forms such as the Greek Epigram. It seems utterly radical in retrospect that Bernadette would confront all these mostly younger poets who would join her in that workshop -- eager and almost impatient to discover everything new -- with numerous xeroxed pages from the Greek anthology. Of course she would also immerse us to Stein, Joyce and other modernist works and a host of other works she considered inspiring, such as Luria's "The Mind of a Mnemonist." I think Bernadette presented the classical work alongside Stein and others in an effort to move her workshop participants away from a Norton Anthology of Poetry linear view of literary history and also in an effort to show that our perceptions of traditions such as classical poetry were in many ways shaped by the outdated translations that had been imposed on us in school. Rediscoveries of classical forms such as the Epigram were all part of a radical rediscovery and possession of poetic form, including classical forms, during the workshop. Another aspect that made revisiting classical work seem viable at the time were the more contemporary translations of classical poets such as Catullus by contemporary poets such as Bernadette and others. The contemporary phrasing, explicit sexual content and often vulgar language taboo in earlier translations of this work that has more recently been employed by translators in an effort to reinvigorate the original poems, made the classical work seem more viable than ever and available to us as an influence. In those translations, we noted the heavy hand of the contemporary poet present, the obvious anachronisms of some of the language choices, but preferred that heavy hand to the supposed transparency and authority that more traditional translations sought to present. Bernadette's own Catullus translations (which can be found in A Bernadette Mayer Reader from New Directions) are an excellent example of this stance towards the translation/interpretation of classical work. Dan M. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Knight Vs. Lykiard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, Bill--take a look at the Lykiard--and of course the original--and you'll see the fragmentation. It's not an abrupt dislocation of texts, but you can definitely see where Burroughs learned his craft. Jess P.S. Lykiard in his introduction "cuts up" the Knight translation, only in a different way. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 22:53:19 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pound was the obvious forerunner in this and its good nowadays to see the many translations of Classical and modern poets for those of us such as myself who know virtually only English. I like Catullus: recently I read through the Eclogues by Virgil (it had a Latin version on the LHS). I "taught myself" how to read Chaucer by listening to tapes and its interesting to see the many versions of the Illiad and The Odyssey, even translations of French writers from such as Montaigne to eg Deridda (will new translations of these French philosophers affect their views expressed? or the interpretaion of them?): its importaant to have alert and various translators. Hamish Dewe in New Zealand translates such as Pessoa and others from the Portugese and Jack Ross has done work on the Spanish poets (eg Borges) and also the Italian such as Pindar. I once put som "French " into a long poem and my line went: Something like: " I'd say at this point: " je vous donnez la rouglaneavoisent d'dici de la" except that I dont know what it means, and I dont know any French." in the early days when I started reading locally and that got a laugh. I cant remember what the poem was about. And I published a poem that was titled: "Der Beshrunken Hominem" ... I have a habit of inventing words... of course the title doesnt mean anything except maybe "the shrunken men/man". I know no German and although I did study Latin once (I know enough to know that I should have had "homines") I also inadvertently created from " golden cauldrons" the word "goldrens" (not because of any Joycean impulse its was a mistype) but such "creative erors" are common I suppose: the epigrams that Mayer talks of would be good starting points for poems. That was the good thing I am now discovering vis a vis Pound is his sense of the simultaneity of history, mythology, language and the great aliveness and light that he can bring (leavened with the appropriate dark). Michelle Leggott of NZ integrates modern phrases and "classic" terminology also with quotes form NZ poets, Herrick and Pound and Ben Jonson (maybe via Pound) in her DIA (which itself - the title - means through (and alos is another word for Dionysius's (or Bacchus's) Island but also puts us through time and into ancient realms with words such as "melismata" "incunablua" and so on: another writer (tragically) recently deceased who ranged widely and rather quixotically was Alan Brunton in his book eg "Moonshine" ( aphrase used by the nuclear physicist Rutherford when Leo Szilard, who invented the chain reaction, asked at a lecture if Nuclear energy could ever be used as a fuel or large energy source): and "Moonshine" also plays with the idea of nuclear decay and maybe the fragmentations of language and the moral "fall" as it "follows the life of Rutherford ( the New Zealander who first split the atom) and others such as the Curies and in which he used the term Uranus which connects to Uaranium and the planet and the Greek god; he is also "playing" with sounds, "strangenesses" via real moonshine (the romantic image and the "technical journals"), codes and letters (maybe somewhat a la Zukovsky but he was certainly a brilliant original like Len Lye) ..... also Michael Radich "transliterated some Japanese in some early copies of "A Brief History of the Whole World" (then edited by Alan Loney) a few years ago .. there is another NZ writer who translates and interpretes such as Sappho and another writer of that time I dont recall the poet or the (other)person he translates/interprets......Wystan Curnow will know him. Some thoughts, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Machlin" To: Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 8:21 PM Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices > Michael, others: > > As a participant in Bernadette Mayer's "Experiments in Poetry" workshop at > The St. Mark's Poetry Project probably 10 years ago, I wanted to point to > her tremendous significance in turning a whole new generation of New York > City poets, including myself, on to the richness of classical forms such as > the Greek Epigram. It seems utterly radical in retrospect that Bernadette > would confront all these mostly younger poets who would join her in that > workshop -- eager and almost impatient to discover everything new -- with > numerous xeroxed pages from the Greek anthology. Of course she would also > immerse us to Stein, Joyce and other modernist works and a host of other > works she considered inspiring, such as Luria's "The Mind of a Mnemonist." > I think Bernadette presented the classical work alongside Stein and others > in an effort to move her workshop participants away from a Norton Anthology > of Poetry linear view of literary history and also in an effort to show that > our perceptions of traditions such as classical poetry were in many ways > shaped by the outdated translations that had been imposed on us in school. > Rediscoveries of classical forms such as the Epigram were all part of a > radical rediscovery and possession of poetic form, including classical > forms, during the workshop. > > Another aspect that made revisiting classical work seem viable at the time > were the more contemporary translations of classical poets such as Catullus > by contemporary poets such as Bernadette and others. The contemporary > phrasing, explicit sexual content and often vulgar language taboo in earlier > translations of this work that has more recently been employed by > translators in an effort to reinvigorate the original poems, made the > classical work seem more viable than ever and available to us as an > influence. In those translations, we noted the heavy hand of the > contemporary poet present, the obvious anachronisms of some of the language > choices, but preferred that heavy hand to the supposed transparency and > authority that more traditional translations sought to present. > Bernadette's own Catullus translations (which can be found in A Bernadette > Mayer Reader from New Directions) are an excellent example of this stance > towards the translation/interpretation of classical work. > > > Dan M. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 05:26:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: from Endless Caverns Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 4 Last of where long-lost through the night the I rain. my ends I day sat. And dreams. of went had So all I memories, to worked I night work and bed itself missed I these when early to that dreamed things I without far sea-saw of out wake making into dance algebra, in I'm love my of equations my covered to body, ours, twisting sleep, by you. and that sallow balancing the The I homage and variables contingent wear nodded to black on solutions. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 05:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii of course, all of this is about eurocentric classicism, non? bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 09:24:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LMJ Subject: kabbalah Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit david meltzer taught a class in jewish mysticism/kabbalah at new college in the 80s. robert duncan used the zohar as a key reference text in writing the opening of the field. "often I am permitted to return to a meadow" includes images/lines from the zohar-- of "a field folded"-- from a part of the zohar that describes the field and "the cave therein" where adam was buried. duncan later studied kabbalah with meltzer. best, lisa jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:33:00 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: " Classic" Voices, Experimental Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Melnick's Men in Aida immediately comes into mind, a homophonic translation of the first three books of the Iliad. I believe that Tom Mandel's done work in this area (translating Shakespeare's sonnets into English from Celan's German if I remember rightly). Not an accident that both David & Tom matriculated at the U. of Chicago. Other poets who have certainly been influenced by close reading of the old texts would include Bob Perelman and Ben Friedlander, no? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 08:18:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: " Classic" Voices, Experimental Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Quickly, as announced here a couple of weeks ago, Skanky Possum will publish later this year ancient Greek translations by Kent Johnson and Alexandra Papaditsas called "The Miseries of Poetry: Versions from the Greek." I couldn't help mentioning it here given the context of this thread. ***** From Miseries: Eros On paper wings, pressed by Phokylidos the Epileptic, I flap to Olympus, panting, seeking my master, Eros. But he looks through me, says no more dog-style fucking: He sees my graying face-hairs and flies off, looking outwards toward nothing— while I stand transfixed in the breeze made by his thin wings of gold. —Anakreon, 572-490 BC. With the equally famed Ibykos, he was for many years court poet of Polykrates, the Tyrant of Samos. Upon the murder of his employer, Anakreon moved on to the court of Hippias, Athenian ruler of no less tyrannical nature. His refined and sophisticate verse is almost wholly decadent in theme. He died, it is said, choking on a grape. ****** The book will be available later this year for $6. Send a check for that amount plus $1.50 for postage to Dale Smith (2925 Higgins Street, Austin, Texas 78722) Here are a few supporting words for the book: We have all always desired the eyeless goddess, the handsome whore-boy, the Megala Louloudia. Here they are. Ever since the cache was discovered at Montazah Palace, we’ve been waiting for translations suitable for Greek menus everywhere. Had the Greeks invented fortune cookies, they could not have foretold the strange beauty of these versions. -Eleni Sikelianos I'm doubled over by the Miseries of Poetry, folded into a mirror world of literature and here live on moth-ambrosia, play happily with possible ancillas of the Pre-Socratics. -Garrett Kalleberg Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to invent him. His mind leaks nomads constantly naming world-historic hinges as if inscription were always underfoot. You can't pull Catullus out of the 'incubated / god, writing himself into being' but you can pull the door open. Literature is close to fraud, evanescent and trembling in these times of incipient terror. Johnson's approach deconstructs and exacerbates that fraud; I think of his work as returning to the (re)creation of language - political and sexual language, the languages of the last people speaking on earth. -Alan Sondheim If they ever need a Classics Geek on "Beat the Geeks," Dr. Kent Johnson is their man. The Miseries of Poetry is an operatically nerdy intervention in the transmission of ancient lyric, a scurrilous, fantastical, erudite, shameless, and often very moving addition to the Geek--er, Greek--Anthology. More faithful in its peregrinate Sapphic incontinence than most of the last two centuries of vanilla-flavored translations, this sheaf of cracked-amphora smut will change the way people misinterpret Linear B forever. Roll over, Richmond Lattimore: this is not your father's Mimnermus. -Kasey Silem Mohammad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:47:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Kaballa in Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jack Hirschman Robert Kelley ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 13:03:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: ode to Labor Day In-Reply-To: <20020901123145.73405.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Labor Day Sitting at the desk at the end of summer (read: the desk at the end of summer) a cat in the lap licking wrist, my head cocked at just the right listening angle, I stumble on a good match, not perfect but good, a line in the disappearing notebook with the red pen attached, the cars run under blue sky & it all blows away in a sneeze. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:42:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: ode to Labor Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Another Labor Day poem, from *September Song* (Oasis Press) _______________________ "and on that day there shall be an end to labor" meaning, I guess, that the desire for paradise contains an additional hope, that the pain of childbirth will cease under its reign. Bitterness under the rain this Labor Day, recalling another Job, familiar as well with windy speeches, praising the natural order but how do *we* persist, persevere further into the fog, so that our features don't blur, becoming incandescent in the milk-white glow of the television at night? We labor under this dissolve, not sudden -- spreading gray mushroom clouds -- but gradual, day-to-day, a slipping of the will, indecipherable now, as you take this short rest from your labor . . . Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: ode to Labor Day MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT some ld bitters as well? Labor day in the USA is a joke the more you work the more you are broke? but not broken? tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:32:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the label 'experimental poet' has been used in the past to > marginalize, along with performance poet, ethnic poet etc. anyone who > is not a 'serious' poet or 'canon' poet. You think so? I've only seen it used to distinguish serious poets from those working in received traditions--from, that is, "mainstream" poets. > poetry for me is one big experiment with words/language. > > komninos ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:01:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: VeRT is building its way to #7 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ***************************************** Shout - OuT VeRT # 7 is slowly becoming a virtual reality on the world's wonderful web {http://www.litvert.com} go there and see the site as it materializes IN FRONT OF YOUR VERY OWN EYES! so far, let's see, there's: Stephanie Young, Spencer Selby, Gary Sullivan, Cynthia Sailers, Jeff Harrison, Brooks Johnson, uploaded and ready to read, and, oh: Kent Johnson puts his Pompoms up: http://www.litvert.com/pompom.html & Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's _The Body_ http://www.litvert.com/dalereview.html There is still much work to go upload, and a few of you to respond to... all in due time, of course. For a semi-complete listing of who's who in the next issue, see below! Okay, check it out, I gotta run, (I'm being dragged, positively DRAGGED, both kicking and screaming, to a matinee of 24Hr. Party People!) Ciao, Andrew Imitation, Homage, & The Bad: Stephanie Young, Spencer Selby,, Aaron Belz, Helen Ruggieri, Rodrigo Toscano, David Hess, Kenneth Tanemura, James Chapson, Ben Lerner, Mark DuCharme, Rachel Loden, Geofrey Gatza, Jeff Harrison Andrew Felsinger, Mark McManus, K. Silem Mohammad, Claire Barbetti, David Hadbawnik, Rodney Koeneke, Chris Glomski, Brooks Johnson, Kevin Gallagher, Andrew Goldfarb, Rod Riesco, Dodie Bellamy as Edward C. Edwards, David Braden, Christopher Martin, Ryan and Jacob, Ethan Paquin, Dale Smith, Noah Gordon, Barbara Joan Tiger Bass, (others to be added) Kent Johnson: Prosthesis of Pompom into VeRT A Nation of Poets: Writings from the Poetry Workshops of Sandinista Nicaragua, and Interview w/ Ernesto Cardenal by Kent Johnson Excerpts from _Cries in the New Wilderness: from the Files of the Moscow Institute of Atheism_ by Mikhail Epstein Jono Schneider: On Literary Silence Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's _The Body_ David Hadbawnik Reviews Dale Smith's _The Flood & The Garden_ September 2002 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:01:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 41 (2002) Mark DeCarteret | Eight Poems Nothing New, If the pig had to fly, The Gate, Alchemy is Not in My Vocabulary, Surplus, The Lore of the Extinct, Toward a Definition of Farewell, and The Same Only Different from "The Same Only Different" At a point where I'm defined more by the holes in my story than I am by the wood I sprout or the pen with its belly of blue discharged from my fingers, so full of ideas my chin's messy with them, what chance do I have of convincing you of the next line's credibility? Mark DeCarteret was born in Lowell MA in 1960 and has lived within an hour or two drive ever since. His poetry has recently appeared in CONDUIT, HUNGER MAGAZINE, PHOEBE, SALT HILL, 3rd BED, and AMERICAN POETRY: THE NEXT GENERATION (Carnegie Mellon Press, 2000). His books of poems are OVER EASY (Minotaur Press, 1991), REVIEW: A BOOK OF POEMS (Kettle of Fish Press, 1995), and THE GREAT APOLOGY (Oyster River Press, 2001). Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:36:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: and the word is In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit an the word was a second, start over. in second case which case, start over. as much as possible start over. as much as it is possible in second place. as much as possible human dealings, human feelings, human short comings, down falls and pit falls. jumps, leaps, really start over, to say no more at this point, no more of this point, on this point, more points, can you point me the way, can you point me in the right direction . . . aloof from the entire . . . each to their own . . . with there own each . . . there own with each a motif, there own with this idea, than I have this idea, a brilliant insight, a stronger than stronger massiah, that might be possible, attainable, dynamic, perceptible, virtually suitable to intertwine language math language gender language sexuality language sex language begets language, copulates with gender, multiplies gender, algorithms beget fucking, beget anal incest signification in ways that shed some different views, sheds some light, triangulates panoramas, visas different modulations. I would collaborate on it, part take in it, attach to it, be a bug on a window, a voyeur in your closet, a something with no anatomical parts, or spots or marks, a new beginning, a genesis for a dime. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: ARGUMENTS INVOLVING RELATIONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ARGUMENTS INVOLVING RELATIONS HANG! EH! RANG! The exalted language in unseen rhythm delivers a thousand intelligent generations. Too mechanical, the imagination. There the notion of the earth. An impression of voices forever mad in ancient animal mysteries. When an opening spit its roots up through penetrating surface, sexual flow consummated in understanding. Human beings hugging & kissing the imagination at last gasp & respond. Tension within her possible body continued to exist. Red birds & rain pierce the wall of her skin & sharpened the amputated organ. A most baffling emotion drew a cupped hand over scribed stones while anxiety carried the girlish boy under the mattress. Jeweled painting marking flesh. Dogs clasped his furrowed heart & certain red accumulated liquids brushed her body. Clear hearing drowned visible eyes, activated her nine hearts & raised his entry upon her. Over their echoes an object from the sky. "You see me flying through bodily decisions. My dream is air rubbed in exchange of fiery passing." (1. Foreign electricity combined with lace fruit is sweeter after the lover's meal. 2. Wine bulbs mixed & sprayed possess musical appearance & loose marks. 3. Snakes after retreat acquire thickness & a piercing character.) Blow, inhale, repeat & maintain new sexual heights. Hearing themselves romantic, they carved & contemplated opening with figs & piety. A network of red & white bodies into near darkness; they confirmed experiments of ice shape & suspended physique. (An entire night on the underside of the noisy floor as an opportunity for sharing climax.) & the moon's fermata can chew the nipple; the blood cell becomes a tool. Behind a pagan culture steam rises from a gray sculpture & flesh is flung under trees. Silence on the part of stress-baring plasma inside the bloodstream. Insects' broken & delicate fruit for ecstatic union. The elephant woman with sequential liquid disgorges each breed of fallen lover. Their appearance in a diseased system outphases her bodily intensity. Bind measure? Sexual enthusiasm records violent attacks on lower information centers. Sweat in the remotest corner of one woman's beauty bursts & follows a tear. Carbon harmony in a cushion, polished head, blushing rose dotted machine on her back. The yogi exchanges islands for heart-beating boat of sucking red liquor at night. mIEKAL aND ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:29:13 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: <00b401c251e5$f5f17d40$bc1efea9@j1c1k6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > the label 'experimental poet' has been used in the past to >> marginalize, along with performance poet, ethnic poet etc. anyone who >> is not a 'serious' poet or 'canon' poet. > >You think so? I've only seen it used to distinguish serious poets from >those working in received traditions--from, that is, "mainstream" poets. > >> poetry for me is one big experiment with words/language. >> >> komninos isn't that the same thing? komninos -- komninos zervos bsc(hons) ma(creative writing) http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos Convenor CyberStudies major School of Arts Griffith University Gold Coast Campus PMB 50 Gold Coast Mail Centre Queensland 9726 Australia tel: +61 7 55528872 fax: +61 7 55528141 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:29:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: these 2 heroes Comments: cc: jfp3r@virginia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII these two heroes could be a prize in fake impasto low-light diagram crap theory. the collapsible brio the false eyescratching birthmark. put the tea on cold for me, leave four drips in the long cable stop drinking my orange juice. maybe a moment's thought before you leave for tijuana with a dose of sorrow, a teen archivist, a troupe of cats, my one good suit, my last red cent, a careworn ghost, a headful of pus. i don't mean to be simple but is that a clownface in your purse, a horsefoot in your shirt, a bloody apple tossed carelessly into your formerly blood-free apple basket. can't i trade this gravity puller for the painless ether of not ever having asked you to weed my yard? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:31:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: rough american top Comments: cc: jfp3r@virginia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII let's rope we hold a rough to row along this american oar this plant a store how's deep or doesn't what throw a drinking sunk over true carpenter, plane to lever woke we rolled we spoke to blow not grant the poor house creep our cousin red through the brook marked stone or shrill hall hold draw slinking drunk floor glue park when sure few stalk grin stop to grope or sleep top off <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 21:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: from "Key Bridge" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from "Key Bridge" don't try to impress me don't put on black shoes and call yourself "sailor" don't take three apples and line them on the ledge don't express too fast don't stop don't lay on the bathroom to talk to your sister don't build a wooden bird in your chest don't expect me to be don't talk to the stationary bike Just don't don't stop don't say "I didn't warn you" don't "here's the door, here's the steeple" don't tell me the secret to amateur wrestling don't let on that Guatemala read the tile don't feel clouds are better don't stop -- we and we are one we and we and we are one Cool "Disco" Dan -- "il miglior fabbro" --blue kerchief across his dark face like a cut triangle pumpkin mouth a dc of the mined --Ken Rumble ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:18:11 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Probably by default: but I mentioned a writer (NZ) who is now in Japan who "interpretes" in that culture: and ok "Pounding Fascism" by Bernstein is a good take on Pound, but that aside and the terrible issue of his broadcasts and "the Fascists Cantos " aside: he was one of those (one of the first or early ones at least) to bring Chinese and Japanese culture in. I think that we maybe need to acknowledge more the other influences which are "classical" and rich also: paradoxically the English language has picked up a lot of Arabic, Inidan,African and other influences and fewer has been absorbed directly into the United States: certain British intellectuals were more open in he early days to African and Indian and other influences: but after Pound's contributions surely were important: then there's Olson's and the we have the waves of US writer from the Beats on including eg Susan Howe and others....the "clssics" if they are say Greek...well its debatable that they are Eurocentric per se ( the Greeks themselves being invaded by Asiatic influences): I see writers experimental and other ranging across the whole spectrum. A lot of people on the List will groan but enjoyed reading David Denby's book "Great Books" now the whole debate is there and I sould connect with him as I had gone back to Uni in my 40s...I was thinking of studying the classics formally: having been a bit dismissive of them prior: I would like to have at least had that course ( at Columbia Uni, NY) that he did "under my belt" but as someone is translating Pound into Chinese we need to be reciprocating (as many are) with Chinese works and other civilisations and valorizing the works of indigenous peoples. I am always fascinated by Maori culture and have read some of their mythology: they also were pre literate but I their carvings and sculptures is a language: there is also the oral tradition. I think that Rothenberg has looked at the American Indian culture nad the Maya etc was looked at and studied and valued by Olson and another US poet whose name escapes me just now. I always feel that I am way behind in my knowledge all round even in the main stream but I have no doubt that ALL human culture including "classics" is of value and if someone is studying classics and doesnt want to go "outside maybe that's not good" but its better that committing crime or exploiting or bombing people. But I take your quip it easy for us to revert by default to "Eurocentric things" and I fell about that debate.... Roads lead not to Rome only but constantly in new directions. Richard Taylor. (Aotearoa) ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices > of course, all of this is about eurocentric > classicism, non? > bliss > l > > > ===== > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:53:19 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: <003a01c25226$fca98c40$4fe236d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i have chosen a shakespearian poem called "venus and adonis", to translate into street language. this poem is 200 stanzas long, and is a poem of seduction, the experienced venus trying to entice the young boy, adonis. not only have i had to change the language, but also certain facts, i.e. adonis doesn't ride a horse he drives a car, he doesn't hunt wild pig, he drag races his car etc.. in the passage selected below venus has kept adonis with her for three hours by stealing his keys, and is now thinking of new ways to persuade the boy to love her. the venus of marrickville. narrator time is running out for our sweet venus she's done her dash, she's got no more to say. she knows she cannot hold her dear adonis he wriggles free and turns to walk away. and as he walks he chuckles cheekily and from his pocket pulls his car's spare key. 43 but this does not displease the girl at all for in this act our venus sees new hope she wonders why adonis has for so long, stalled when in his pocket had the key to his escape. his actions so far seeming to deceive when all the time he had the means to leave. 44 and now he turns the key and revs the beast the full-blown engine roars with all its might the horsepower he is ready to unleash he grips the wheel and holds onto it tight. he revs it hard, as hard as he can and in his mind the boy becomes a man. 45 the gleaming duco with not a scratch upon it a hotter car in marrickville could not be found twin fours and blower popping from the bonnet twelve inch fats and mag wheels all around. as he presses the pedal flat to the floor the chromed protrusions throbbing even more. 46 venus wondering why adonis stayed so long yet seemed to act so cool and oh so distant she thought perhaps she came on far too strong but now knew she was right to be persistent. and so she stands in front of it and says "this car's a heap of shit!" 47 shit? adonis cries above the noise. "shit!" venus replies, "a pile of shit." this comment gets adonis quite annoyed with this a tender nerve she seemed to hit. "this car is painted shiny just for show it's just a pose, it doesn't really go." 48 venus i've seen you cruising down the streets of marrickville on friday nights with all your yobbo friends hanging out the windows for their thrills they don't care whose values they offend. your precious car is nothing but a hoon mobile just for show and but for real. 49 narrator at this adonis works himself into a state how dare she talk about his car this way her teasing now has made him quite irate. adonis what would you know about it anyway you're just a dipstick bimbo chick with high heeled shoes and red lipstick. 50 i bet you couldn't even drive a car like this let alone know what makes it go. your slagging is as weak as piss why don't you try to slag something you know. this car can blow any car off the strip and you know shit, so shut your stupid lip. 51 venus open the bonnet, let me see inside your wild beast's guts to me you'll show and i will prove to you i have not lied i'll tell you all there is to know. narrator he pulls the lever, she undoes the latch her newest scheme begins to hatch. 52 indeed the engine was a monsterous beast a full blown 454 with all eight pistons pumping so finely tuned, all parts expertly greased twin carbies polished, chromed and hissing. a thumping hunk of total power could easy do 200 k per hour. 53 venus so turn it off and let me have a look let me inspect this pulsating motor narrator she bent forward and carefully she took from the distributor case the silver rotor about mechanics a lot she didn't know but knew without this bit it wouldn't go. 54 she slams the bonnett shut and taunts the boy adonis quickly understands what she has done. he looks at her with looks that could destroy gets out and round that car they run. she throws the rotor in to the bushes he chases it and past her pushes. 55 beside the car she stands so silently whilst he, down on his knees, looks for the part. so determined she wont let that poor boy be not seeming very logical but driven by her heart. she seems so calm but she is not and silently again begins to plot. 56 -- komninos zervos bsc(hons) ma(creative writing) http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos Convenor CyberStudies major School of Arts Griffith University Gold Coast Campus PMB 50 Gold Coast Mail Centre Queensland 9726 Australia tel: +61 7 55528872 fax: +61 7 55528141 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 23:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Runner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Runner I wish to kill the runner of this game. Please answer the question. No Please answer the question. no You are standing at the end of a road before a small brick building. Around you is a forest. A small stream flows out of the building and down a gully. Where is the runner of this game? I don't understand that! where is the runner of this game? I don't know that word. what is the meaning of this word? I don't know that word. kill that word I don't know that word. kill everything I don't understand that! kill anything inside your skull I don't understand that! go down the stream and down the gully You are in a valley in the forest beside a stream tumbling along a rocky bed. kill everything in the gully I don't know that word. drown in stream I don't know that word. swim stream I don't know how. cross stream I don't know how to apply that word here. You're in valley. do something here I don't know that word. something here I don't know that word. go go what? go who I don't know that word. go where where what? where go go what? go where where what? with what . go with keys What? take keys I see no keys here take gully I don't know how to apply that word here. You're in valley. take valley I don't know how to apply that word here. You're in valley. kill valley I don't know how to apply that word here. You're in valley. kill gully I don't know how to apply that word here. You are in a valley in the forest beside a stream tumbling along a rocky bed. drink stream I don't know how to apply that word here. You're in valley. fall in stream What? in the stream. fall in the stream. I don't know in from out here. Use compass points or name something in the general direction you want to go. You're in valley. oh, compass points. I don't know that word. north-east You're at end of road again. north You are in open forest, with a deep valley to one side. north You're in forest. north You're in forest. eat valley You're in valley. eat forest You're in forest. kill forest You are in open forest near both a valley and a road. kill road You're at end of road again. burn road I don't know that word. i am the assassin. i will kill every evil man. all men here are evil. all men here are runners. I don't know that word. what word I don't know that word. word I don't know that word. what I don't know that word. okay. i am the assassin. i will take road I don't know that word. take road You have walked up a hill, still in the forest. The road slopes back down the other side of the hill. There is a building in the distance. burn down building I don't know that word. enter building You're at end of road again. where where what? burn down road. I don't understand that! i am the assassin who will burn down road! I don't know that word. what word? I don't know that word. I will break you! What? Why not? I don't understand that! I am looking for weapons. I will destroy people who make war. I don't understand that! This is war. I am the assassin. I don't know that word. kill There is nothing here to attack. kill There is nothing here to attack. kill There is nothing here to attack. quit Do you really want to quit now? kill Please answer the question. Do you really want to quit now? kill Please answer the question. Do you really want to quit now? kill Please answer the question. Do you really want to quit now? Please answer the question. Do you really want to quit now? ==== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 21:51:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices Comments: cc: ammonides@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii from THE WELL-WISHERS (Aeschylus' THE EUMENIDES) WRIT IN ITS ORIGINAL METER FOR THE FIRST TIME http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0105&L=poetics&P=R22798 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 22:02:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices Comments: cc: ammonides@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii from WOMEN BESEECHING (Aeschylus' THE SUPPLIANTS) WRIT IN ITS ORIGINAL METER FOR THE FIRST TIME [lines 96 - 122] CHORUS OF FIFTY DANAID DAUGHTERS: {STROPHE} He hurls men down suspense- 's towers tall. Broken red-blooded men His strong armor: nothing null shield. {nameless} Godly without lifting a hand Seated on chair his thoughts are facts Motionless mind be matter still nevertheless unknown throne {ANTISTROPHE} Then see! How hubris sprouts In humans, grows younger fresh straight, a root By vows' wedding watered full bloom {nameless} Hardest to bend consciousness back Intellect mad hell-driven sharp Point at the center crazy ache knows no escape from trick trapped {STROPHE} (with an intensive sense: sad, blue, wrecked, wretch pitches I intone lacrimal ducts gush big droplets crystal clear I-YEE! I-YEE!! Loud making a spectacle/scene Self-eulogized vital signs {EPHYMNION} Hear please save me yodel hillside sod Same language both us talk, Dust, dug up Learn earthling voicebox yeah, Dust, dig it {variant} Once! and I grab it Twice! nails rip it to shreds linen pure Veil made in Sidonia __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:02:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Reply to Richard Taylor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Don't ever say my thoughts are disordered, I simply read it wrong. I happened to be very well organised and successful at what I do. Tony Follari >From: "richard.tylr" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Reply to Richard Taylor >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:52:57 +1200 > >Tony. Your thought is disordered, and I like you and you have met me and so >on, I live in the same city (Auckland)....Well then the US and G Bush >Senior backed Saddam Hussein right up to the Gulf War then they helped him >gas the Kurds but the British (with Churchill's blessing had had a go at >the >Kurds some time previously ) and the British and Americans are currently >bombing targets (they bomb everything and anything that moves as they did >in >Korea nothing has changed). The US backed Saddam Hussein and re-armed him >after the Gulf war prior to that they backed both sides (but making sure >that Hussein wasnt overwhelmed as they were terrified that either the Kurds >or Shiites or any popular democratic Govt - or any group they couldnt >control -(the US always backs dictators, never democratic regimes: eg they >ignored the UN decision for democratic elections in Vietnam after the >French >were beaten and they are ILLEGALY bombing in the no fly zones (which are >ILLEGAL under international law).As well Iraq gas complied with all >requests >for arms reductions etc... (Coversatation Pliger and Boutros Boutos-Gahli >the previous Sec of the UN and other UN officials) (Some very low serving >and high ranking officials have resigned at the atrocities they see being >commited by the US in Iraq). Also the British and US stay "home" in Turkey > a Muslim state in NATO) while they allow the Turks to bomb and kill >hundreds of Kurds. (There have been some potests by US military personal to >this blind-eyeing). > >I wasnt talking about Saddam Hussein I was quoting John Pilger whose books >eg "the Secret Country" and "The New Rulers of the World" might open your >eyes...also there is a book I have re-acquired called "Rape of Vietnam" by >Harold Slingsby (but there are many books and mags aside form eg The New >York Times (in fact the NZ Herald is a good source of info and Scott >Hamilton could put you on to more "left wing" zines online and other). >Remember that unlike Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush etc' Pilger has visited Iraq >(and he has no desire to control the vast oil wealth (and the cheap labour >markets and the drugs and misery) over there includiing the Caspian sea >that >Bush's soul-mate Adolf Hitler so coverted in WW2) ... > > Iraq is no threat to the World but the US and Israel are: if the US is >truly concerned they would abandon military means totally and ... in fact >this should be the aim of all countries to move to a truly democratic and a >true united nations including ALL countries but since at least the 2ndWW >the >US have caused the deaths of more individuals than Hitler ever dreamed of. >You have Theocratic Fascism in the US with a religious crackpot in charge: >in NZ our Prime Minister to our credit has refused to support the US if >they >attack Iraq, Australia's Prime Minister is a thug and is supporting them: >already devastated by the sanctions and the constant bombings by British >and >US aircraft. At least 5000 children and others die per month in Iraq >because of the effects of the radiation from depleted uranium and the lack >of sufficient food and medical supplies. Iraq's people suffer and Saddam >Hussein stays there: unaffected with his cronies: the whole thing by Bush >is a desparate attempt to continue the insane policy of bombing and >bullying >in coordination with Israel: theere have and are now serious moves to put >Bush, Blair and many others who are responsible (and people in respectable >and "high" professional positions including respected academics) for >genocidal activities on trial like Milosovich. But Saddam Hussein could >also >be tried. I dont support dictators o wherever they are - but prior to the >Gulf War (Hussein was probably egged on by the US) the US built up Saddam >hussein (that is wel known) and Iraq because or despite Hussein had a very >high literacy ad rate and clean water and so on: a very good wel-fare >system (which the US would have hated and also the Thatcherites and >Rogernomicists over here) Meanwhile the Saudis have just i the last few >days >withdrawn several billions from the US and invested it in Europe. Qatar is >refusing to allow US to use its country for attacks from there. Where are >those of courage in Turkey? They should boot theYanks out: ask Partrick >Herron his thinking on this...but I'm not "backing Saddam Hussein" or >caring >when or where he was born. The US always use or misuse some patsy: like a >big Mafia (they use the Mafia probably as well via the CIA)...but going >into >all those numbers is stupid. Hussein is no Hitler, as you sayin fact he is >quite bright (but so was A H: but so what?) The issue is the devaastation >that has been caused to Iraq and the prospect of more bombing and killling. >There are thousands of peoples lives at stake. Think about the issues and >take a stand for or against the proposed attack on Iraq. Iraq the place of >the oldest civilisation faced and insulted by a barbarian nation....Learn >some politics and history: read more. Richard Taylor. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tony Follari" >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 8:14 PM >Subject: Reply to Richard Taylor > > > > Dear Richard, > > Talking about Saddam, I was reading up on him on the net > > recently and to my surprise I discovered he has actually published a >number > > of writings,some intellectual,military,economic etc.Obviously a clever > > guy,but with bad intentions.Apparently he was shot in the leg in the >early > > sixties as part of a coup attempt.and actually was elected to parliament > > while being under arrest.Strangely he has the same astrological birth >sign > > and chinese sign as Hitler, a Taurus Buffalo. > > > > >.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 03:50:51 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Translations (4 Gary Sullivan?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mentioned to my teddy bear that there was this 'thread" or "chain" on the list about translations, and he said unto me "but have they mentioned Delmore Schwartz's "The Winter Twilight, Glowing Black and Gold?'" "No, why should they?" "Because it presents itself as a MODERNIZATION of that Shakespeare sonnet, "the time of year thou mayst in me behold.'" "Yeah, but that isn't one of Schwartz's best." "Nor is it one of our favorite Shakespeare poems" (I was little taken aback by his use of the royal we here). "Yeah, but while Shakespeare's reputation---even on your 'experimental poetry' list (is that what you call it?)---can withstand calling attention to a relative clunker, Schwartz's can not. So, DON"T, whatever you do mention that poem on that list, for the love of what Lou Reed calls the pure spirit of poetry or whatever he calls it in "I Love Women" (or is it "The Pow Pow Pow, the Power of Positive Drinking.")." "well, the schwartz poem isn't really a clunker, it's just not quite as good as "Far Rockaway" or "Dogs are Shakespearean, Children Are Strangers"---I still prefer it to the Shakespeare poem." "Yeah, but that's just because it is a modernization, er, translation. That's what they're looking for on that list---quality isn't the issue AT ALL." Then the tutu bear narrativized "behind our unseen faces" and I found us skirting around Kenneth Koch's "Art of Love" again.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 09:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hlazer Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >===== Original Message From UB Poetics discussion group ===== >Jack Hirschman >Robert Kelley Jake Berry Robert Duncan Hank Lazer Jack Foley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 07:44:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael ceraolo Subject: Labor Day poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Labor Day As a holiday it is much like Groundhog Day Once a year the American worker is a curiosity like Punxsatawney Phil, stepping into the sun of media attention, then slipping through the country’s consciousness to go back into the hole of media oblivion for another year And though we never learn whether the worker saw his shadow, a safe prediction would be for another year of winter Parade (3) At the parade that took place a few days before the day designated to celebrate working people the unions marching were in a small minority, not prominently displayed, not widely applauded, while the parade was dominated by assorted sordid politicians and numerous novelty acts And the people were content to collect crumbs of candy which, in honor of the holiday, were at least real crumbs -Michael Ceraolo --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 09:45:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (this is my homophonic translation of Bergbo's homophonic translation of sonnet 92 which was extrapolated for a project of Dick Higgin's some years back.) sonnet #92 by Skogekar Bergbo by mIEKAL aND Yon coma, all clad I write, in wide then logic stranded I footle eff and ra tree ok shooter wettest swart, their some that war mast lung ok grunt ok rent mocha smelt, their some that war mast claret ut hoof wear scare sanded, some are cringe Mailers haft. Till the lustfully linden they had a logos plait I samurai war man waltz, mu till edit tilde for drift war manana offer tall, mead clan rein up till chun war Amman hole I handled. Snort lauds children aft, snort squeal pa the ok prays Chad --the lilly eh Whig Ta lair ok been mu welters om-- shad shark, at ingenue saga ok chutney them for raz Chad, narc laugh, aft skag an tact wall hold, narc in till coma ok -- that ay chutney for mead their is williwaw skew -- mu fick eff lick and guy nest alter sampans nog see. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:23:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Fanny Howe in the Chicago Tribune MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All: Fanny Howe's ECONOMICS (Chicago: Flood Editions, 2002) received an excellent review in the Chicago Tribune yesterday. The book is readily available through either of the following: www.floodeditions.com www.spdbooks.org Here is the review: -------------------- A privileged circle in her sights -------------------- Fanny Howe's short stories comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable By Maureen McLane. Maureen McLane is a fellow at the Harvard University Society of Fellows, a poet and the author of "Romanticism and the Human Sciences." September 1, 2002 Economics By Fanny Howe Flood Editions, 134 pages, $14 paper "Economics" is a horrible book, deliciously so. In publishing this collection of Fanny Howe's stories, the independent Chicago press Flood Editions has given us an object that registers like a small literary landmine, placed years ago but only now exploding. Most of these stories were written in the 1970s and '80s, the author's note tells us, and they delineate the predicaments of self-styled liberals and working-class couples who reckon with social change since the '60s. So while there is a slight period-piece feel to some of these stories--evoking as several do a Boston riven by racial conflict, political marches, consciousness-raising seminars and so on--nevertheless these fictions pack a sometimes-grim, sometimes-amusing, cumulative wallop. I suspect that some readers will find this a mildly repellent collection, Howe's occasionally mordant sensibility annihilating any readerly desire to be solicited, comforted, mirrored, enlarged. This is not, in other words, an Oprah book. "The white couple who adopted the black child were not happy with what they got." So begins the first story, "The Weather," the biting tone of which progressively intensifies. Howe does not love such characters, nor does she indulge them; the skewering of narcissistic liberal pieties here is relentless. Howe focuses steadily on the wreckage caused by self-deluding, self-pleased privileged folk; her sympathy goes to those who lose out according to the social and sexual economics governing late 20th-Century American life: "Sometimes a child is born--or bought--into a family in which it never feels comfortable." "[A]t her age she would have a hard time finding a permanent new job." In Howe's fictional universe, those with choices--i.e., with money--fiercely protect their prerogatives; those with less freedom often find themselves colluding, however ruefully, in their own constraints. As the working-class wife observes at the end of the story "Lotto," "So much for escape." Moments of recognition are often moments in which a character recognizes attenuation--not the presence of something but a waning, a thinning. In "Fidelity," a man who has devoted large amounts of energy to escaping his home life suddenly realizes that his long-suffering wife has finally, more or less happily, accommodated herself to the situation: "This freedom was all that he had ever desired, to be able to come and go without suffering her resentment at the end. But now that he had what he wanted, it was horrible to discover that she did too." So, as the shrinks say, getting what you want doesn't get you what you want. In such pieces, Howe is an efficient sketch artist, conjuring a milieu, a relationship, and an epiphany in fewer than seven pages. She can also weave longer, more complex, equally unconsoling fictions. Perhaps the subtlest story here is "Gray," which follows a woman, a computer assistant to a professor, as she pursues his request to unpack the mystery of a grade change: Was it computer error or human error? The original instructor and grader is now dead; no one at the academic institution remembers the student, who is now protesting her lowered grade (what had been an "A" appears in the records as a "C"). The woman eventually puts together the relevant backstory, which involves the dead instructor's sexual and intellectual malfeasance. She also realizes that her boss would have suspected this all along, and that her ferreting out of the truth is inconvenient for him, the institution, and indeed herself: "The professor would be embarrassed because he would have guessed it was something like this. And so would she. And the embarrassment would bind them weirdly as they went up the stairs and together changed the grade to an A." Howe has a great feel for the way failure and embarrassment bind people together. Even more strikingly, she keeps her eye on the differential costs such embarrassments exact: Our hero will not be rewarded for her tenacity; she will, like whistleblowers low on the totem pole everywhere, be ostracized, most likely let go. Heroes without heroism, stoics without a stoic philosophy--these are Howe's sympathetic characters, unillusioned but also unraging. Those more familiar with Fanny Howe's poetry than her novels may be surprised by this volume: Its social critique and its ruthless evisceration of privileged female liberals (formerly radicals) seem far away from her erotically and philosophically minded poetry. But a common thread in Howe's work is this capacity for critique--whether in the domain of self-analysis, social and political analysis, or metaphysical reflection. Moving between Chekhovian explorations of melancholic misunderstanding and incisive social satire, Howe in this book keeps her feet firmly planted in the dirt of the conventions of realism. Her most gleefully animus-ridden stories read as a wickedly informed indictment of a circle and class she apparently knows well. Howe grew up in Boston and lived there as an adult; she then left the East for the West Coast, where she had long lived until returning recently to Massachusetts. Only one intimately familiar with the class hatred seething below mid-to-late 20th Century white privilege could write so trenchantly about it; only someone still furious about it would feel a need to write about it in this way. Howe's icy anatomies of privilege co-exist intriguingly with her warmer stories of missed chances, bad bets, making do and getting by. It is striking that spoiled women are the major targets of Howe's occasionally poisoned darts; one feels this is truly an argument among the women of the family, so to speak, and perhaps an argument with her generation. Copyright (c) 2002, Chicago Tribune ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Af-Am literature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harkening back to that thread we left hanging out there... I recommend Wanda Coleman's essay in this week's NATION "Book Reviewing: African-American Style" --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 09:07:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Something to think about MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The counter-revolutionary project to resolve the crisis of modernity unfolded in the centuries of the Enlightenment. The primary task of this Enlightenment was to dominate the idea of immanence (without reproducing the absolute dualism of medieval culture) by constructing a transcendental apparatus capable of disciplining a multitude of formally free subjects. . . . It was paramount to avoid the multitude's being understood, a la Spinoza, in a direct, immediate relation with divinity and nature, as the ethical producer of life and the world. On the contrary, in every case mediation had to be imposed on the complexity of human relations. . . . Hence the triad *vis-cupiditas-amor* (strength-desire-love) was opposed by a triad of specific mediations. Nature and experience are unrecognizable except through *the filter of phenomena*; human knowledge cannot be achieved except through *the reflection of the intellect*; and the ethical world is incommunicable except through the *schematism of reason*. What is at play is a sort of weak transcendence, which relativizes experience and abolishes every instance of the immediate and absolute in human life and history. . . . because claiming that humans could immediately establish their freedom would be a subversive delirium. (From *Exile*, Hardt and Negri, pp. 78-79) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:14:55 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: Re: disney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii # This also might be a reason Alan doesn't post links, since the WWW (brought # to you by Microsoft and AOL) is inherently commercial and Unix is not. Unix was brought to you courtesy of Bell Labs of AT&T. At it's heart, it's most emphatically a Big Iron Big Corp piece of software at heart and inherently. Not quite up to AS400 levels of reliability but not as sexy as Multics. Linux might be free, and not as in beer, but it's granp is still commercial, runs in it's blood. Sorry. Just back from holiday and catching up on my email. Roger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:19:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Wanda Coleman In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020902115457.0269a438@mail.verizon.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Also, here is this piece that appeared in the LA Weekly last month by Coleman on same subject, after she was shunned for critiquing Maya Angelou's poetry: Not sure if it's the same piece in the Nation... Hunt and Peck Wanda Coleman, LA Weekly August 9, 2002 Earlier this year, I summarized Maya Angelou's "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" in the Los Angeles Times Book Review: In writing that is bad to God-awful, "Song" is a tell-all that tells nothing in empty phrases and sweeping generalities. Dead metaphors (sobbing embrace, my heart fell in my chest) and clumsy similes (like the sound of buffaloes running into each other at rutting times) are indulged. Twice-told crises (being molested, her son's auto accident) are milked for residual drama. Extravagant statements come without explication and schmooze substitutes for action . . . . There is too much coulda shoulda woulda. Unfortunately, the Maya Angelou of "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" seems small and inauthentic, without ideas, wisdom or vision. Something is being flung up to heaven all right, but it isn't a song. Reactions to my critical rip caused an immediate furor in the African-American community, yet none of the many letters reportedly sent to the L.A. Times was ever published, for who-knows-what reasons. End of story? Not quite. As bizarre punishment for my violation of the unwritten law that blacks not criticize one another in front of whites, I was then not allowed to appear at Eso Won Books, L.A.'s popular outlet for African-American literature (and pseudo-literature), for the signing of an anthology I contributed to, "Griots Beneath the Baobab: Tales From Los Angeles" (co-edited by Randy Ross and L.A Weekly's Erin Aubry Kaplan). The message? Critically reviewing the creative efforts of present-day African-American writers, no matter their origin, is a minefield of a task complicated by the social residuals of slavery and the shifting currents in American publishing. Into this 21st century, African-Americans are still denied full and open participation in the larger culture. Thus, our books remain repositories for the complaints and resentments harbored against the nation we love, as well as paeans to the courage, fortitude and sacrifice of peers and forebears. For those who need reminding, books by writers of color were still largely found in the anthropology sections of libraries and bookstores until the civil rights movement was well under way. (The glory rush of pride, wonder and dismay I felt whenever I stood before those sections has never been forgotten.) In grade school, circa 1954, the year "under God" was inserted into the pledge of allegiance, works by Negroes were treated as contraband, and confiscated by white teachers or administrators. Outside of home and church, creative writing by colored people did not seem to exist except for those authors who were assigned as classroom reading during Negro History Week (Black History Month since 1976). Of those, James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison, Langston Hughes and Richard Wright were invariably our designated spokesmen. Getting hold of their books, however, was problematic if not impossible and meant leaving the ghetto to visit public libraries, or borrowing from friends or relations -- on one's solemn oath to return the precious tome. Few Los Angeles bookstores then featured black literature, even in the sociology section, and few publishers braved carrying more than two African-American authors. Black-owned presses, sans white patronage, led short lives. Books by blacks had even less of a shelf life when reviews -- good or bad -- failed to appear. Good reviews written by whites were the ideal, but bad reviews were welcomed if they generated enough controversy to sell copies. The few black reviewers were usually one of the ranking spokesmen, and between them lay an ideological divide -- those writing for whites and those writing for blacks, with the former receiving far greater attention. The truths of our daily lives defined the truths for our literature: We were constantly discriminated against, monitored and censored. In defense and support of our writers, book clubs, discussion groups and writers' orga nizations emerged -- in L.A., Vassie May Wright's Our Authors Study Clubs, the Black Writers' Guild (later absorbed by the WGAw), and, eventually, the International Black Writers' Association and the World Stage in Leimert Park. But the majority of "folks" were reached via the grapevine (a.k.a. "the drum"); word of mouth was the primary news-and-review resource. If gossip, rumor and speculation were its liabilities, it was swifter than radio and TV and -- best of all -- was uncensored by the white establishment. (Any posture resembling that taken by Eso Won made a little more sense in those days.) In 1963, Arna Bontemps published his "American Negro Poetry" anthology, which reintroduced older poets such as Gwendolyn Brooks and introduced the more racially conscious scions of education, miseducation and self-education that converged in the Muntu Group, or the Black Arts Movement -- Nikki Giovanni, Ted Joans, LeRoi Jones (Amiri Baraka), et al. Outside Bontemps' radar, writers and journalists like Ishmael Reed were making a name for themselves. And by the end of the '60s, popular fiction writers like Alex Haley, Chester Himes, Iceberg Slim and Frank Yerby were reaching audiences both black and white, as a constellation of once-silenced voices exploded into print and onto screen and stage. Following the August 1965 riots, Budd Schulberg's Watts Writers (Quincy Troupe, Kamaau Da'ooud) reinforced racial pride and spirited entitlement to unfettered speech. But the price most paid for this newfound freedom was scorching reviews by white book critics, and in having black authors' work ignored for literary grants and prizes. Knowing they were not exempt from the currents affecting all writers, they became equally adept at playing the literary games of cronyism, favoritism and patronage. Impatient with the racist criticism that truncated their literary careers, they demanded same-race interviewers and reviewers. Supported by the leading black celebrities of the day, and underwritten by a riot-singed loosening of cultu ral constraints, African-American reviewer-journalists began appearing in the mainstream print media. Meanwhile, what had begun with "Oliver Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas" (1954), and public school desegregation, resulted in the boon of black-studies programs in American colleges and universities throughout the 1970s. Since then, America has produced the largest educated population in its history, racism aside. New writers have emerged from workshops, MFA and Ph.D. programs via whatever means necessary -- affirmative action, grants, student loans and scholarships. The publish-or-perish mandate of academic life, in tandem with increases in the black middle and under classes, accelerated the outcry for cultural redress. An explosion into print of new kinds of writing to satisfy this boom market followed, meaning an inevitable diversity of black authors across genres -- from Octavia Butler to Walter Mosley to Gary Phillips to Terry McMillan. Simultaneously, a fourth generation of fiction writers, social critics and academics has emerged, along with a burgeoning black avant-garde claiming influences from the Absurdists to the Surrealists, including rap/hip-hop writers flavored by Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets, the Nuyoricans, the Slam writers and acculturated others. The depth and breadth of writing across disciplines by those who identify as African-American is now so staggering it outstrips the available review media. It is thus incumbent upon any book reviewer to grasp the multifaceted broadening of what was once simply summarized as "The Black Experience," and it is the duty of the African-American reviewer to accurately portray, critically assess and convey this to potential readers. The ironic complexity of this task, no matter how savvy the reviewer, is best illustrated when the quality of the work produced by black writers is measured against that of whites using the criteria of excellence governing standard English and its genre, Ebonics aside. Ideally, the social context within which the work under review is created should be factored in, but should that be done to the exclusion of evaluating the quality of the writing? By applying my own standards to Angelou's "Song," my answer was -- and is -- a resounding "NO!" All literary criticism, at root, is biased because each reviewer must bring to the act his or her individual world-view and aesthetic sensibility. Each must decide if the social values of a text as a political record are more important than its literary values, which is often the choice with books by African-Americans. But fostering an illusion of excellence where none exists, regardless of the writer or subject matter, is to do a democratic readership the ultimate disservice. Saying amen to the going cultural directives, minus a true analysis, is as morally suspect as any bigoted criticism -- whether done out of guilt, fear, or the desire to compensate the author for the social ills that shaped his or her existence. It is with this understanding that I write whenever I assume the role of reviewer. In post-9/11 America, where suspicions and the fear of terrorism now threaten long-coveted individual freedoms, a book review seems rather insignificant until the twin specters of censorship and oppression are raised. What keeps our nation great, despite racism, is that some citizens persist in honoring those freedoms. It is they who allow me to voice my expertise, be it praise song, mixed bag or dissent. Wanda Coleman's latest books are "Bathwater Wine, Mambo Hips & Make Believe" and "Mercurochrome: New Poems," a finalist for the 2001 National Book Award. [NOTE: also see wanda coleman's article in ishamel reed's kounch e-journal. url = http://www.ishmaelreedpub.com/Coleman.html] *** I like to think good writing is fetishized and compassionate terrorism. Eurydice ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Af-Am literature > > Harkening back to that thread we left hanging out there... > > I recommend Wanda Coleman's essay in this week's NATION > > "Book Reviewing: African-American Style" > > --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:14:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Wanda Coleman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AHHH The truth at last, Thanks for posting this -- it made my day :-) Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Tisa Bryant Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:19 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Wanda Coleman Also, here is this piece that appeared in the LA Weekly last month by Coleman on same subject, after she was shunned for critiquing Maya Angelou's poetry: Not sure if it's the same piece in the Nation... Hunt and Peck Wanda Coleman, LA Weekly August 9, 2002 Earlier this year, I summarized Maya Angelou's "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" in the Los Angeles Times Book Review: In writing that is bad to God-awful, "Song" is a tell-all that tells nothing in empty phrases and sweeping generalities. Dead metaphors (sobbing embrace, my heart fell in my chest) and clumsy similes (like the sound of buffaloes running into each other at rutting times) are indulged. Twice-told crises (being molested, her son's auto accident) are milked for residual drama. Extravagant statements come without explication and schmooze substitutes for action . . . . There is too much coulda shoulda woulda. Unfortunately, the Maya Angelou of "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" seems small and inauthentic, without ideas, wisdom or vision. Something is being flung up to heaven all right, but it isn't a song. Reactions to my critical rip caused an immediate furor in the African-American community, yet none of the many letters reportedly sent to the L.A. Times was ever published, for who-knows-what reasons. End of story? Not quite. As bizarre punishment for my violation of the unwritten law that blacks not criticize one another in front of whites, I was then not allowed to appear at Eso Won Books, L.A.'s popular outlet for African-American literature (and pseudo-literature), for the signing of an anthology I contributed to, "Griots Beneath the Baobab: Tales From Los Angeles" (co-edited by Randy Ross and L.A Weekly's Erin Aubry Kaplan). The message? Critically reviewing the creative efforts of present-day African-American writers, no matter their origin, is a minefield of a task complicated by the social residuals of slavery and the shifting currents in American publishing. Into this 21st century, African-Americans are still denied full and open participation in the larger culture. Thus, our books remain repositories for the complaints and resentments harbored against the nation we love, as well as paeans to the courage, fortitude and sacrifice of peers and forebears. For those who need reminding, books by writers of color were still largely found in the anthropology sections of libraries and bookstores until the civil rights movement was well under way. (The glory rush of pride, wonder and dismay I felt whenever I stood before those sections has never been forgotten.) In grade school, circa 1954, the year "under God" was inserted into the pledge of allegiance, works by Negroes were treated as contraband, and confiscated by white teachers or administrators. Outside of home and church, creative writing by colored people did not seem to exist except for those authors who were assigned as classroom reading during Negro History Week (Black History Month since 1976). Of those, James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison, Langston Hughes and Richard Wright were invariably our designated spokesmen. Getting hold of their books, however, was problematic if not impossible and meant leaving the ghetto to visit public libraries, or borrowing from friends or relations -- on one's solemn oath to return the precious tome. Few Los Angeles bookstores then featured black literature, even in the sociology section, and few publishers braved carrying more than two African-American authors. Black-owned presses, sans white patronage, led short lives. Books by blacks had even less of a shelf life when reviews -- good or bad -- failed to appear. Good reviews written by whites were the ideal, but bad reviews were welcomed if they generated enough controversy to sell copies. The few black reviewers were usually one of the ranking spokesmen, and between them lay an ideological divide -- those writing for whites and those writing for blacks, with the former receiving far greater attention. The truths of our daily lives defined the truths for our literature: We were constantly discriminated against, monitored and censored. In defense and support of our writers, book clubs, discussion groups and writers' orga nizations emerged -- in L.A., Vassie May Wright's Our Authors Study Clubs, the Black Writers' Guild (later absorbed by the WGAw), and, eventually, the International Black Writers' Association and the World Stage in Leimert Park. But the majority of "folks" were reached via the grapevine (a.k.a. "the drum"); word of mouth was the primary news-and-review resource. If gossip, rumor and speculation were its liabilities, it was swifter than radio and TV and -- best of all -- was uncensored by the white establishment. (Any posture resembling that taken by Eso Won made a little more sense in those days.) In 1963, Arna Bontemps published his "American Negro Poetry" anthology, which reintroduced older poets such as Gwendolyn Brooks and introduced the more racially conscious scions of education, miseducation and self-education that converged in the Muntu Group, or the Black Arts Movement -- Nikki Giovanni, Ted Joans, LeRoi Jones (Amiri Baraka), et al. Outside Bontemps' radar, writers and journalists like Ishmael Reed were making a name for themselves. And by the end of the '60s, popular fiction writers like Alex Haley, Chester Himes, Iceberg Slim and Frank Yerby were reaching audiences both black and white, as a constellation of once-silenced voices exploded into print and onto screen and stage. Following the August 1965 riots, Budd Schulberg's Watts Writers (Quincy Troupe, Kamaau Da'ooud) reinforced racial pride and spirited entitlement to unfettered speech. But the price most paid for this newfound freedom was scorching reviews by white book critics, and in having black authors' work ignored for literary grants and prizes. Knowing they were not exempt from the currents affecting all writers, they became equally adept at playing the literary games of cronyism, favoritism and patronage. Impatient with the racist criticism that truncated their literary careers, they demanded same-race interviewers and reviewers. Supported by the leading black celebrities of the day, and underwritten by a riot-singed loosening of cultu ral constraints, African-American reviewer-journalists began appearing in the mainstream print media. Meanwhile, what had begun with "Oliver Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas" (1954), and public school desegregation, resulted in the boon of black-studies programs in American colleges and universities throughout the 1970s. Since then, America has produced the largest educated population in its history, racism aside. New writers have emerged from workshops, MFA and Ph.D. programs via whatever means necessary -- affirmative action, grants, student loans and scholarships. The publish-or-perish mandate of academic life, in tandem with increases in the black middle and under classes, accelerated the outcry for cultural redress. An explosion into print of new kinds of writing to satisfy this boom market followed, meaning an inevitable diversity of black authors across genres -- from Octavia Butler to Walter Mosley to Gary Phillips to Terry McMillan. Simultaneously, a fourth generation of fiction writers, social critics and academics has emerged, along with a burgeoning black avant-garde claiming influences from the Absurdists to the Surrealists, including rap/hip-hop writers flavored by Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets, the Nuyoricans, the Slam writers and acculturated others. The depth and breadth of writing across disciplines by those who identify as African-American is now so staggering it outstrips the available review media. It is thus incumbent upon any book reviewer to grasp the multifaceted broadening of what was once simply summarized as "The Black Experience," and it is the duty of the African-American reviewer to accurately portray, critically assess and convey this to potential readers. The ironic complexity of this task, no matter how savvy the reviewer, is best illustrated when the quality of the work produced by black writers is measured against that of whites using the criteria of excellence governing standard English and its genre, Ebonics aside. Ideally, the social context within which the work under review is created should be factored in, but should that be done to the exclusion of evaluating the quality of the writing? By applying my own standards to Angelou's "Song," my answer was -- and is -- a resounding "NO!" All literary criticism, at root, is biased because each reviewer must bring to the act his or her individual world-view and aesthetic sensibility. Each must decide if the social values of a text as a political record are more important than its literary values, which is often the choice with books by African-Americans. But fostering an illusion of excellence where none exists, regardless of the writer or subject matter, is to do a democratic readership the ultimate disservice. Saying amen to the going cultural directives, minus a true analysis, is as morally suspect as any bigoted criticism -- whether done out of guilt, fear, or the desire to compensate the author for the social ills that shaped his or her existence. It is with this understanding that I write whenever I assume the role of reviewer. In post-9/11 America, where suspicions and the fear of terrorism now threaten long-coveted individual freedoms, a book review seems rather insignificant until the twin specters of censorship and oppression are raised. What keeps our nation great, despite racism, is that some citizens persist in honoring those freedoms. It is they who allow me to voice my expertise, be it praise song, mixed bag or dissent. Wanda Coleman's latest books are "Bathwater Wine, Mambo Hips & Make Believe" and "Mercurochrome: New Poems," a finalist for the 2001 National Book Award. [NOTE: also see wanda coleman's article in ishamel reed's kounch e-journal. url = http://www.ishmaelreedpub.com/Coleman.html] *** I like to think good writing is fetishized and compassionate terrorism. Eurydice ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Af-Am literature > > Harkening back to that thread we left hanging out there... > > I recommend Wanda Coleman's essay in this week's NATION > > "Book Reviewing: African-American Style" > > --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:15:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: Wanda Coleman In-Reply-To: <000201c252a4$2a5f5480$105e3618@buf.adelphia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I thought you were posting the original LAT's review, Tisa. Yes, this is almost exactly what ran in the Nation. --Ak -----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Tisa Bryant >Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 12:19 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Wanda Coleman > >Also, here is this piece that appeared in the LA Weekly last month by >Coleman on same subject, after she was shunned for critiquing Maya >Angelou's >poetry: >Not sure if it's the same piece in the Nation... > >Hunt and Peck >Wanda Coleman, LA Weekly >August 9, 2002 > >Earlier this year, I summarized Maya Angelou's "A Song Flung Up to >Heaven" >in the Los Angeles Times Book Review: > >In writing that is bad to God-awful, "Song" is a tell-all that tells >nothing >in empty phrases and sweeping generalities. Dead metaphors (sobbing >embrace, >my heart fell in my chest) and clumsy similes (like the sound of >buffaloes >running into each other at rutting times) are indulged. Twice-told >crises >(being molested, her son's auto accident) are milked for residual drama. >Extravagant statements come without explication and schmooze substitutes >for >action . . . . There is too much coulda shoulda woulda. Unfortunately, >the >Maya Angelou of "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" seems small and inauthentic, >without ideas, wisdom or vision. Something is being flung up to heaven >all >right, but it isn't a song. > >Reactions to my critical rip caused an immediate furor in the >African-American community, yet none of the many letters reportedly sent >to >the L.A. Times was ever published, for who-knows-what reasons. End of >story? >Not quite. As bizarre punishment for my violation of the unwritten law >that >blacks not criticize one another in front of whites, I was then not >allowed >to appear at Eso Won Books, L.A.'s popular outlet for African-American >literature (and pseudo-literature), for the signing of an anthology I >contributed to, "Griots Beneath the Baobab: Tales From Los Angeles" >(co-edited by Randy Ross and L.A Weekly's Erin Aubry Kaplan). The >message? > > >Critically reviewing the creative efforts of present-day >African-American >writers, no matter their origin, is a minefield of a task complicated by >the >social residuals of slavery and the shifting currents in American >publishing. Into this 21st century, African-Americans are still denied >full >and open participation in the larger culture. Thus, our books remain >repositories for the complaints and resentments harbored against the >nation >we love, as well as paeans to the courage, fortitude and sacrifice of >peers >and forebears. > > >For those who need reminding, books by writers of color were still >largely >found in the anthropology sections of libraries and bookstores until the >civil rights movement was well under way. (The glory rush of pride, >wonder >and dismay I felt whenever I stood before those sections has never been >forgotten.) In grade school, circa 1954, the year "under God" was >inserted >into the pledge of allegiance, works by Negroes were treated as >contraband, >and confiscated by white teachers or administrators. Outside of home and >church, creative writing by colored people did not seem to exist except >for >those authors who were assigned as classroom reading during Negro >History >Week (Black History Month since 1976). Of those, James Baldwin, Ralph >Ellison, Langston Hughes and Richard Wright were invariably our >designated >spokesmen. > > >Getting hold of their books, however, was problematic if not impossible >and >meant leaving the ghetto to visit public libraries, or borrowing from >friends or relations -- on one's solemn oath to return the precious >tome. >Few Los Angeles bookstores then featured black literature, even in the >sociology section, and few publishers braved carrying more than two >African-American authors. Black-owned presses, sans white patronage, led >short lives. Books by blacks had even less of a shelf life when reviews >-- >good or bad -- failed to appear. Good reviews written by whites were the >ideal, but bad reviews were welcomed if they generated enough >controversy to >sell copies. The few black reviewers were usually one of the ranking >spokesmen, and between them lay an ideological divide -- those writing >for >whites and those writing for blacks, with the former receiving far >greater >attention. > > >The truths of our daily lives defined the truths for our literature: We >were >constantly discriminated against, monitored and censored. In defense and >support of our writers, book clubs, discussion groups and writers' orga >nizations emerged -- in L.A., Vassie May Wright's Our Authors Study >Clubs, >the Black Writers' Guild (later absorbed by the WGAw), and, eventually, >the >International Black Writers' Association and the World Stage in Leimert >Park. But the majority of "folks" were reached via the grapevine (a.k.a. >"the drum"); word of mouth was the primary news-and-review resource. If >gossip, rumor and speculation were its liabilities, it was swifter than >radio and TV and -- best of all -- was uncensored by the white >establishment. (Any posture resembling that taken by Eso Won made a >little >more sense in those days.) > > >In 1963, Arna Bontemps published his "American Negro Poetry" anthology, >which reintroduced older poets such as Gwendolyn Brooks and introduced >the >more racially conscious scions of education, miseducation and >self-education >that converged in the Muntu Group, or the Black Arts Movement -- Nikki >Giovanni, Ted Joans, LeRoi Jones (Amiri Baraka), et al. Outside >Bontemps' >radar, writers and journalists like Ishmael Reed were making a name for >themselves. And by the end of the '60s, popular fiction writers like >Alex >Haley, Chester Himes, Iceberg Slim and Frank Yerby were reaching >audiences >both black and white, as a constellation of once-silenced voices >exploded >into print and onto screen and stage. > > >Following the August 1965 riots, Budd Schulberg's Watts Writers (Quincy >Troupe, Kamaau Da'ooud) reinforced racial pride and spirited entitlement >to >unfettered speech. But the price most paid for this newfound freedom was >scorching reviews by white book critics, and in having black authors' >work >ignored for literary grants and prizes. Knowing they were not exempt >from >the currents affecting all writers, they became equally adept at playing >the >literary games of cronyism, favoritism and patronage. Impatient with the >racist criticism that truncated their literary careers, they demanded >same-race interviewers and reviewers. Supported by the leading black >celebrities of the day, and underwritten by a riot-singed loosening of >cultu >ral constraints, African-American reviewer-journalists began appearing >in >the mainstream print media. > > >Meanwhile, what had begun with "Oliver Brown v. the Board of Education >of >Topeka, Kansas" (1954), and public school desegregation, resulted in the >boon of black-studies programs in American colleges and universities >throughout the 1970s. Since then, America has produced the largest >educated >population in its history, racism aside. New writers have emerged from >workshops, MFA and Ph.D. programs via whatever means necessary -- >affirmative action, grants, student loans and scholarships. The >publish-or-perish mandate of academic life, in tandem with increases in >the >black middle and under classes, accelerated the outcry for cultural >redress. >An explosion into print of new kinds of writing to satisfy this boom >market >followed, meaning an inevitable diversity of black authors across genres >-- >from Octavia Butler to Walter Mosley to Gary Phillips to Terry McMillan. >Simultaneously, a fourth generation of fiction writers, social critics >and >academics has emerged, along with a burgeoning black avant-garde >claiming >influences from the Absurdists to the Surrealists, including rap/hip-hop >writers flavored by Gil Scott-Heron and the Last Poets, the Nuyoricans, >the >Slam writers and acculturated others. The depth and breadth of writing >across disciplines by those who identify as African-American is now so >staggering it outstrips the available review media. > > >It is thus incumbent upon any book reviewer to grasp the multifaceted >broadening of what was once simply summarized as "The Black Experience," >and >it is the duty of the African-American reviewer to accurately portray, >critically assess and convey this to potential readers. The ironic >complexity of this task, no matter how savvy the reviewer, is best >illustrated when the quality of the work produced by black writers is >measured against that of whites using the criteria of excellence >governing >standard English and its genre, Ebonics aside. Ideally, the social >context >within which the work under review is created should be factored in, but >should that be done to the exclusion of evaluating the quality of the >writing? > > >By applying my own standards to Angelou's "Song," my answer was -- and >is -- >a resounding "NO!" > > >All literary criticism, at root, is biased because each reviewer must >bring >to the act his or her individual world-view and aesthetic sensibility. >Each >must decide if the social values of a text as a political record are >more >important than its literary values, which is often the choice with books >by >African-Americans. But fostering an illusion of excellence where none >exists, regardless of the writer or subject matter, is to do a >democratic >readership the ultimate disservice. Saying amen to the going cultural >directives, minus a true analysis, is as morally suspect as any bigoted >criticism -- whether done out of guilt, fear, or the desire to >compensate >the author for the social ills that shaped his or her existence. It is >with >this understanding that I write whenever I assume the role of reviewer. > > >In post-9/11 America, where suspicions and the fear of terrorism now >threaten long-coveted individual freedoms, a book review seems rather >insignificant until the twin specters of censorship and oppression are >raised. What keeps our nation great, despite racism, is that some >citizens >persist in honoring those freedoms. It is they who allow me to voice my >expertise, be it praise song, mixed bag or dissent. > > >Wanda Coleman's latest books are "Bathwater Wine, Mambo Hips & Make >Believe" >and "Mercurochrome: New Poems," a finalist for the 2001 National Book >Award. > >[NOTE: also see wanda coleman's article in ishamel reed's kounch >e-journal. >url = http://www.ishmaelreedpub.com/Coleman.html] > > >*** >I like to think good writing is fetishized and compassionate terrorism. > >Eurydice >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >---- > > > > > > > From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET > > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Af-Am literature > > > > Harkening back to that thread we left hanging out there... > > > > I recommend Wanda Coleman's essay in this week's NATION > > > > "Book Reviewing: African-American Style" > > > > --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:26:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: classicism and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii RICHARD: I always feel that I am way behind in my knowledge all round even in the main stream but I have no doubt that ALL human culture including "classics" is of value and if someone is studying classics and doesnt want to go "outside maybe that's not good" but its better that committing crime or exploiting or bombing people. But I take your quip it easy for us to revert by default to "Eurocentric things" and I fell about that debate.... Roads lead not to Rome only but constantly in new directions. Richard Taylor. (Aotearoa) LL: Thanks, Richard. It's good to hear this! I too ALWAYS feel behind...and I was dismissive of the classics in my university days, but have come back to them (i love much of the eurocentric canon, but am drawn to 'tribal' literatures as well)(& the new electronic work, of course!)=== I was feeling stuffy there for a while about this thread, afraid the English profs in us all would come out in hardcore waves, but it's proven much more interesting than that::::: &&&&& i would love to read more about NZ, particularly the maori culture, which i know far too little about, outside of the reading of a few novels.... bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes, nichol has a catullus translation in _as elected_. (interesting to read against zukofsky.) harry gilonis has some catullus translations in a recent issue of _quid_. bests, tom ----------------- Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:41:54 -0400 Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: parrishka Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices and i'm interested to know what you mean by "translation." i've been re-reading Rational Geomancy, and the first third or so of the book investigates translation as a poetic act, so i've got translation on the brain, and i seem to see it everywhere. In the sense that nichol & mccaffery use it there- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:48:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: classicism and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/02 1:27:27 PM, llacook@YAHOO.COM writes: >and I was dismissive of the >classics in my university days, but have come back to >them (i love much of the eurocentric canon, but am >drawn to 'tribal' literatures as well) Lewis, There is nothing quotations marks ("") about these literatures. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:25:05 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trying to think of the best way to channel all of this thinking I do about poetry, Ron http:/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:25:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ron: yr missing a forward slash in yr URL but the server also seems to be down for the moment. mIEKAL Ron wrote: > Trying to think of the best way to channel all of this thinking I do > about poetry, > > Ron > > http:/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:33:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit only seems that ron's isn't working...the blogspot site comes up fine... ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog > ron: > yr missing a forward slash in yr URL but the server also seems to be > down for the moment. mIEKAL > > Ron wrote: > > > Trying to think of the best way to channel all of this thinking I do > > about poetry, > > > > Ron > > > > http:/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:35:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: classicism and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lewis, There is nothing quotations marks ("") about these literatures. Murat yeaaah...i know....but i don't like the term tribal...i'm always afraid that, like the word primitive (which i also detest), it will be construed as dismissive, which is not what i want to say... bliss ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: parrishka@sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: parrishka Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i dunno what y'all are doing but i can get to silliman's blog just fine from here: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ blogspot is so heavily used that i find that by the time everyone in california wakes up, it can be difficult to access those sites. anyhow, i'd like to number myself among your audience, ron, and to also mention brandon barr's blog as a good blog about contemporary poetics: http://cif.rochester.edu/~barr/texturl/ although, like in any decent blog as you note, other subjects get caught up in the ebb & flow. i'm hard-pressed to think of any others that deal with poetics at all. certainly there are a number that engage ideas surrounding digital textuality (and many of these are linked off brandon's site, so i won't re-post them here) and of course there's alienated.net and the york site: http://www.poetics.yorku.ca/ though there's not much to differentiate them technically from a blog, neither of these have ever felt particularly bloggish in spirit, lacking that personal, thinking outloud quality that characterizes much of blog writing. there's a certain generosity in blog authorship. makes me want to say thanks to you. katherine Duration Press wrote: > only seems that ron's isn't working...the blogspot site comes up fine... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mIEKAL aND" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog > > > ron: > > yr missing a forward slash in yr URL but the server also seems to be > > down for the moment. mIEKAL > > > > Ron wrote: > > > > > Trying to think of the best way to channel all of this thinking I do > > > about poetry, > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > http:/ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: <3D710D9E.CD12DE05@lamar.colostate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable uh...this is almost too obvious (or, to coin a phrase meaning so obvious that even someone dumb as a cow cd get it, bovious), but bernadette mayer's catullus-based sonnets...or am i being bovious, not near my books, are her catullus works different from her sonnets? can't keep it all straight...after a 30 hour drive xcountry avec chatte inqui=E8te, but now you're all welcome to visit me on the cape... At 12:40 PM -0600 8/31/02, Laura Mullen wrote: >Anne Carson just did Sappho.... > >MWP wrote: > >> Could somebody give me examples of classical translations by contemporar= y >> experimental poets? I can't think of any off the top of my head, to be >> honest. The most recent one that comes to mind is L Zukofsky's Catullus,= but >> I am sure there must be something after that, yes? If not, then why? Has >> experimental poetry finally silenced this oft-exploited link with past > > voices and traditions? > > > > M -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry In-Reply-To: <3D710F3D.BAAFFD18@lamar.colostate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" what is christian quabbalism? i thot twas a yiddisher thang, no matter the spellynge... At 12:47 PM -0600 8/31/02, Laura Mullen wrote: >Carol Snow, look at both the first book: Artist and Model, and the new one, >For. > >jesse glass wrote: > >> Going back to something that George Bowering said earlier about his work >> being Kaballistic. What 20th century--contemporary poets use Kaballistic >> (or Christian Quabbalistic) refs. in their work? > > > > Jerome Rothenberg is one. > > Yeats > > > > any others? > > > > Jess -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:57:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT how does this differ from blogging? actually I like 'blog' better as a term as it's a way I can clear out some of the 'fog' that has settled in overnight. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish > Tom > > --you > & > anyone else-- > > are invited to cocreate at the swiki we have set up below. from what I can tell > there have been 10-20 folks consistently working on the site since it was > invigorated at the beginning of the month. I have done extensive collaboration > with other writers over the the years in a one to one form of exchange but this > kind of space requires even deeper observations of one's ego, identity, > aesthethics, expectations & a kind of thorough letting go that I find myself > enjoying more & more. I also find that there is a lot of listening & reading > going on in the space, many of the additions are quite thoughtful & often > polymorphic in how they graft themselves onto a document (72 pages created so > far) in a way that defies identification with an individual recognizable > signature. > > > spidertangle or spy yonder tangent... > http://swiki.hfbk-hamburg.de:8888/mIEKAL > > > > mIEKAL > > > > > > > > > Tom Beckett wrote: > > > > > Collaboration can break down hierarchy, it can take one out of the habitual > > range of reference. It is also quite challenging. I'd like to do it more > > often. And I'd like to see more of it going on. I've often wondered why > > collaborative writing projects aren't attempted more often on this list. > > > > Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:27:34 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As it happens, I am going to Cape Cod for the forst time next week. Are there any good bookstores or venues for readings? I will only be there a week, near Orleans I think (I am coming along on a trip my mom has planned with her husband that's why I am geographically vague) but we will have a car. My mom likes poetry too and has started to write it again after 30 years (can't vouch for it all though but some is good, just like me I guess only she doesn't know contemporary poetry at all except for what I show her) but my step-father might be rather bored at a reading, especially since he is fairly hard of hearing... Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 4:25 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices uh...this is almost too obvious (or, to coin a phrase meaning so obvious that even someone dumb as a cow cd get it, bovious), but bernadette mayer's catullus-based sonnets...or am i being bovious, not near my books, are her catullus works different from her sonnets? can't keep it all straight...after a 30 hour drive xcountry avec chatte inquiète, but now you're all welcome to visit me on the cape... At 12:40 PM -0600 8/31/02, Laura Mullen wrote: >Anne Carson just did Sappho.... > >MWP wrote: > >> Could somebody give me examples of classical translations by contemporary >> experimental poets? I can't think of any off the top of my head, to be >> honest. The most recent one that comes to mind is L Zukofsky's Catullus, but >> I am sure there must be something after that, yes? If not, then why? Has >> experimental poetry finally silenced this oft-exploited link with past > > voices and traditions? > > > > M -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:55:46 -0400 Reply-To: coreyfrost@attcanada.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Corey Frost Organization: CUNY Subject: Re: Experimental Classical Trans(e)lation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This relates more to the tangent about radical translation. I guess I'm inclined to disagree with the original proposition that experimental poetry has become less interested in classical forms and classical works; I'd say if anything it's the opposite. The current (perhaps decades-long) moment seems very concerned with translating new thoughts into old forms or vice-versa. But translating in radical ways, which seems to me the significant thing. A couple of examples from Canada (a pseudo-bilingual country where translation is always a hot theoretical topic) are Lisa Robertson, whose _XEclogue_ and _Debbie: An Epic_ while not exactly translations are both playful and carefully theorized abstract reconstructions of Virgil, and Erin Mouré (or Eirin Moure) who has been working with slightly slanted translations of Ferdinand Pessoa, as in last year's _Sheep's Vigil by a Fervent Person_. Mouré, being a translator and a Montrealer, has always been very aesthetically invested in splipping between languages, but in this project - it's really interesting what she's done - it's as if she's trying to translate not Pessoa's words exactly but his essence, taking steps such as changing her own name to parallel Pessoa's own psurfeit of pseudonyms. And _Debbie_ is a great book to read in this context: aside from being gorgeous, it addresses the various motivations behind poets' attraction to ancient texts. "Between antiquity and us floats love in the library" and "I dreamt that Virgil mapped my lavish sleep / I read the curbs of epic lust's dérive / And there, I saw myself. // Precocious closure sculpts / Thin difference, thin frock. // I greet an ornament. Hello shepherdess! Lend me a bit of that stuff. That fancy stuff. So Virgil, this is how it is." I'm interested in radical translation because I've been working on a re-write of The Tale of Genji by Shikibu Murasaki (or perhaps the causality is the other way around), one in which I try to retell the story using the idiom of contemporary Japanese English, the kind you find on packaging and stationery and so on. As far as I can see, both texts are all about the poetry of sex and therefore seem to deserve to be introduced. I'm working on this, but whether or not I'm translating is a matter of opinion because although I do speak Japanese, reading The Tale of Genji is a different matter entirely, so mainly I'm working with other English translations. Perhaps I would rather describe it with Erin Mouré's word trans(e)lation. I like the idea of extracting the happiness from one text and reproducing it elsewhere. An excerpt of my project appeared recently in Matrix magazine (Montreal) along with other explorations of radical translation including an essay by Mouré, English translations of the Earl of Surrey's Early Modern English sonnets by Susan Gillis, and an interesting experiment in English-to-English idiolectical translation between Robin Blaser and Meredith Quartermain. http://alcor.concordia.ca/~matrix/issue60.html All relevent to the discussion here, I'd say. (you can read a bit of my Genji version here: http://members.attcanada.ca/~coreyf/genji.html Corey Frost -- Corey Frost * 718-855-8042 * 135 Plymouth Ave. #309A, Brooklyn, NY 11201 cfrost@gc.cuny.edu Bits World: www.attcanada.ca/~coreyf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 20:21:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is misspelled. It is actually to be christian squabblism. This is found in the poetry of people like Michael Wigglesworth. http://www.puritansermons.com/poetry/wiggindx.htm "Faith, without trouble or fighting, is a suspicious faith; for true faith is a fighting, wrestling faith." RALPH ERSKINE Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 4:26 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry what is christian quabbalism? i thot twas a yiddisher thang, no matter the spellynge... At 12:47 PM -0600 8/31/02, Laura Mullen wrote: >Carol Snow, look at both the first book: Artist and Model, and the new one, >For. > >jesse glass wrote: > >> Going back to something that George Bowering said earlier about his work >> being Kaballistic. What 20th century--contemporary poets use Kaballistic >> (or Christian Quabbalistic) refs. in their work? > > > > Jerome Rothenberg is one. > > Yeats > > > > any others? > > > > Jess -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:50:47 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Wanda Coleman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maya Angelou writes crap poetry its like those who are actually ashamed of being black so they write in a kind of sentimental "poetic" mode: that pleases the establishment, the (deep down people who tolerate but are contemptious of blacks etal) and these white-blacks feel they are saying something that promotes their cause. Its not traitorous or racist to criticise someone: in this case it needs to be done some stuff is bad politically and thus poetically. Of course this isnt to say that huge numbers of people like it but they like it for reasons that are complex; not as we (black and white) people who care deeply about literature and the mind and ultimately about human beings - in particular as exemplified by "high art" (which can also be popular art of course: since at least O'Hara (annd maybe we go back to the 1500s or even the Latins and the ancient Greeks such as Apuleius or Petronius and maybe into other cultures and previous or contemporary (surely into..) to find the popular and the "high")...... A counter example in art might be Dondi White the graffitti artist whose "cliches" were beautiful: there was no attempt to please whitey...he just painted or "bombed". his black delight on his parents' unaware and tolerate roof was writ in white Actually I am aware of some contradictions in what I'm saying eg how do I say or adjudge that Mills and Boon is worse or of inferior quality than Faulkner and so on? But I could (and I believe people do do) a PhD/s on the subject. Maybe its not good to criticise other poets as Ron said re McKuen...but I have only ever glanced at her books which are usually close to Ashbery's in bookshops or libraries and I used (not nowdays so much) to invariably get bored with Angelou and pick up John Ashbery. Or move along the shelf to some new "langpo" or strange poet of interest.... Amiri Baraka (Lee Roi Jones) and even Rita Dove are more interesting. Richard Taylor (Aotearoa) PS.September 11 (mentioned in this article) which was a godsend for those who now can completely expunge human rights and freedom is always referred to as done by terrorists as if terrorists were always "bad" and what exactly are they (they can be re proagated as "freedom fighters" and WAS it terrorists so-called who did the S11 or was it an inside job?) so the argument gets distorted below: a few thousand are killed measuerd against the millions killed by capitalism since the turn of the century (and before) and the thousands dying daily because of the real terrorism of the capitalists and the especially the US and British military. Where are the monuments to be erected to those dying of malnutrition in Iraq, or South Africa ad Angola, or South America, those exterminated withe help of the CIA in Indonesia, the death squads organised by the US (using Aussies especially (and blacks were put in the front line there)) in Vietnam...some moron sculptor in New Zealand is using a piece of the twin towers as memorial to the S11 when he ignores the atrocities of the US and British and Israeli military....pathetic...the working class are not free as a group: blacks may have more rights than previous to the 1960s but well, I dont know, I'd be interested in what the working white or black man feels about his so-called "freedom" in the US or anywhere... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tisa Bryant" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 4:19 AM Subject: Wanda Coleman > Also, here is this piece that appeared in the LA Weekly last month by > Coleman on same subject, after she was shunned for critiquing Maya Angelou's > poetry: > Not sure if it's the same piece in the Nation... > > Hunt and Peck > Wanda Coleman, LA Weekly > August 9, 2002 > > Earlier this year, I summarized Maya Angelou's "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" > in the Los Angeles Times Book Review: > > In writing that is bad to God-awful, "Song" is a tell-all that tells nothing > in empty phrases and sweeping generalities. Dead metaphors (sobbing embrace, > my heart fell in my chest) and clumsy similes (like the sound of buffaloes > running into each other at rutting times) are indulged. Twice-told crises > (being molested, her son's auto accident) are milked for residual drama. > Extravagant statements come without explication and schmooze substitutes for > action . . . . There is too much coulda shoulda woulda. Unfortunately, the > Maya Angelou of "A Song Flung Up to Heaven" seems small and inauthentic, > without ideas, wisdom or vision. Something is being flung up to heaven all > right, but it isn't a song. > > Reactions to my critical rip caused an immediate furor in the > African-American community, yet none of the many letters reportedly sent to > the L.A. Times was ever published, for who-knows-what reasons. End of story? > Not quite. As bizarre punishment for my violation of the unwritten law that > blacks not criticize one another in front of whites, I was then not allowed > to appear at Eso Won Books, L.A.'s popular outlet for African-American > literature (and pseudo-literature), for the signing of an anthology I > contributed to, "Griots Beneath the Baobab: Tales From Los Angeles" > (co-edited by Randy Ross and L.A Weekly's Erin Aubry Kaplan). The message? > > > Critically reviewing the creative efforts of present-day African-American > writers, no matter their origin, is a minefield of a task complicated by the > social residuals of slavery and the shifting currents in American > publishing. Into this 21st century, African-Americans are still denied full > and open participation in the larger culture. Thus, our books remain > repositories for the complaints and resentments harbored against the nation > we love, as well as paeans to the courage, fortitude and sacrifice of peers > and forebears. > > > For those who need reminding, books by writers of color were still largely > found in the anthropology sections of libraries and bookstores until the > civil rights movement was well under way. (The glory rush of pride, wonder > and dismay I felt whenever I stood before those sections has never been > forgotten.) In grade school, circa 1954, the year "under God" was inserted > into the pledge of allegiance, works by Negroes were treated as contraband, > and confiscated by white teachers or administrators. Outside of home and > church, creative writing by colored people did not seem to exist except for > those authors who were assigned as classroom reading during Negro History > Week (Black History Month since 1976). Of those, James Baldwin, Ralph > Ellison, Langston Hughes and Richard Wright were invariably our designated > spokesmen. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:38:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: classicism and culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lewis. Maoritanga and the associated NZ history, like the Australian lore: its vast and I have only touched the surface of it myself but want to bring eg a book by Mr Holloway's wife (who (both) lives near me if their still alive and started the Holloway Press which Alan Loney was a publisher/printer for (Loney is a good poet active in the "experimental" areas but who did not have a great school education but learnt Greek etc and studied the classics i think when I was at Auck Uni in 1992 he said he was learning Greek...so he would understand the references to "strophe" etc he also published Kendrick Smithyman who rivalled if not surpassed Baxter and Curnow in ability (well he evolved a different style) but his last work was predicated on things local and temes from Maoritanga))- into a "work" I'm doing predcated on my own lief maybee influenced by Zukofsky's "family based" poetics (or that part of him or his writing).... now its amazing the number of "ordinary working class people that eg in the 60s helped Mrs Holloway (wife of Holloway the printer) eg excavate my local ( (I can see it from here) volcanic cone) where there was a Maori pa and she wrote the book "Maugarei" fairly sought after....it would be on abebooks..however if I bring material into a long poem I'm doing (rather desultorily so far or bit by bit) (modelled maybe somewhat on Patterson) I dont want to do so artificially... Nor is there any need to ignore eg the Greek classics because you want to talk about the homeless (which since Rogernomics (NZ's Thatcherism or Reaganism) we have a lot of ..... R A K Mason who became a communist was greatly steeped in the classics (mind you his poetry, beautiful as it was, was never very "modern", how do I put that?..)....but the classics need to be somewhat demystified (and as I'm now looking into them I find that Ovid eg was already satirising the Homeric etc) I am enjoying reading Ovid (Metamorphoses at the now) in the Oxford classics as I'm also studying Pound's Cantos with a guide by Cookson etc and I have always loved Browning so he's on my list (of course he's not an ancient! but influenced Pound and Eliot) but also Williams himself (I think in his prose poem Kora in Hell) and Creeley and Olson refer to eg Kore in a Creeley poem: but the good thing was the push by Olson into the South American cultures and David Antin's talk poem which covered the Australian aboriginees (I think via "Songlines" by Bruce Chatwin) but I'm not a Uni Professor ( I study on my own mostly) I'm not in the same realm as Wystan etal but do "clash swords" occasionally with various of them: Michelle Leggott's "Dia" (could refer to the island of Naxos etc) conflates the various paroles and langues and quotes and is simultaneously also herself, in NZ: as was Smithyman: but also Alistair Paterson wrote a poem "Odyseus Rex" which he told me includes his vist to the Chelsea Hotel in NY so there's a lot going on in NZ: in fact every where I feel poetry and art are what may save us if we cant rid ourselves of wars and people like Monsieur Bush and certain "obese" and greedy personages. There are some highly talented poets and writers in Aotearoa: eg Hone Tuwhare himself is a Maori (but he was also a boilermaker and a strong socialist who is widely read: in both senses!in fact in three senses!) I'm pleased you expressed an interest in Maoritanga (which is all you need to do to get into my books! (as , as i say, my own knowledge even of that is limited greatly) which is more than a lot of Americans (half the senators in Washington dont have passports - insular to the nth, lost them, confiscated , scared of flying, dont know how to get them?) mind you we have a lot of rat bags as well as good people in NZ like anywhere else.... Not having the basic clssical education may ree one into the scientific or other areas which is good but one misses a lot of marvellous references: so we need to likk "back" u aslo "out" : look everywhere, be interested in everything in tis extraordinary world...every moving and sessile thing... Also I want to peer and Jim Andrews work, and other of the vispos or whatever they call themsleves, (and I will time permitting), and I;d love to be able to translate greek etc like Kent Johnston - who should be on this poetics list. Richard Taylor. PS Maori is a beautiful language. think of the "kowhai tree (which has yellow flowers and is visited by the Tuis)...but "kowhai ..is pronounced cor -fi but the ph as in Greek (I believe) is more aspirated than just the f (although the spelling of Samoan words with the f may also be due to the early conventions imposed - not neccessarily with bad intent - by the missionaries who tranalsated the various Pacific languages)... ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 5:26 AM Subject: classicism and culture > RICHARD: > I always feel that I am way behind in my knowledge all > round even in the > main stream but I have no doubt that ALL human culture > including "classics" > is of value and if someone is studying classics and > doesnt want to go > "outside maybe that's not good" but its better that > committing crime or > exploiting or bombing people. But I take your quip it > easy for us to revert > by default to "Eurocentric things" and I fell about > that debate.... Roads > lead not to Rome only but constantly in new > directions. Richard Taylor. > (Aotearoa) > > > > LL: Thanks, Richard. It's good to hear this! > I too ALWAYS feel behind...and I was dismissive of the > classics in my university days, but have come back to > them (i love much of the eurocentric canon, but am > drawn to 'tribal' literatures as well)(& the new > electronic work, of course!)=== > I was feeling stuffy there for a while about this > thread, afraid the English profs in us all would come > out in hardcore waves, but it's proven much more > interesting than that::::: &&&&& i would love to read > more about NZ, particularly the maori culture, which i > know far too little about, outside of the reading of a > few novels.... > bliss > l > > > ===== > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: thomas/swiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thomas/swiss Subject: TIR Web//New Issue (September 2002) Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" TIR WEB A journal of New Media and experimental writing and art, The Iowa Review = Web is published at the University of Iowa with support from the = Department of English and in collaboration with The International Writing = Program and the Iowa Review. Volume 4, Number 5 (September 2002) ************************************* NEW MEDIA WRITING "V: VNIVERSE" A preview of Stephanie Strickland's new poem V (Penguin 2002), featuring V'= s Web section, V: VNIVERSE, an interview with Strickland by Jaishree K. = Odin, and a critical essay by Odin on "Image and Text: The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot." All at:=20 *************************************** + The Animal, To The Letter In Spanish and English. Eloy Fern=E1ndez Porta is a Fellow Lecturer at Duke University. Here at: *********************************** NEW MEDIA WRITING BY WILLIAM GILLESPIE AND MARK MARINO=20 William Gillespie runs Spineless Books. Also: an interview with Gillespie = by Dirk Stratton.=20 Mark Marino is the editor of Bunk Magazine .=20 Gillespie and Marino at: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FROM 91 MERIDIAN + Aida Nasrallah is the pen name of Mahammeed Nasra. She teaches at the = High School for the Arts in Naamat, and organized and ran a weekly salon = for women poets and writers, serving as mentor for Arab women in Israel = who wish to experiment with poetry and fiction.=20 Moccaccino with Double Solitude=20 translated by Natasa Durovicova ************************************* FROM THE IOWA REVIEW Peter Walpole received an MFA from Western Michigan University. His work = has appeared in The Missouri Review, Indiana Review, Southern Humanities = Review, and others. =A0 Margaret Gibson is the author of seven books, most recently Icon and = Evidence. Another, Autumn Grasses, is forthcoming from LSU. All at ***************************** Coming up: Interviews with New Media writers Stuart Moulthrop, Diana Slattery, and Miekal And; critic Joseph Tabbi; artists Jody Zelen and Mark Napier; and others. New work by Jody Zelen, Catlin Fisher, Talan Memmott, and others. ------------------------ The Iowa Review Web: New Media Poetry Conference, Fall 2002: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 01:15:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the unforgiving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Script started on Tue Sep 3 01:03:36 2002 Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [23;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 9 seconds 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [23;1H"ah he [21;76H01:04 [23;7Hll, nothing's going to emerge out of this darkness. it's always the same. i'm stale. even the animation's stale. things float in gravitationless space, [22;24r [24;1H w [1;24r [24;2Hell-lit. new elements appear out of the chaos. [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H You say, "ah hell, nothing's going to emerge out of this darkness. it's always the same. i'm stale. even the animation's stale. things float in gravitationless space, well-lit. new elements appear out of the chaos." [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) a minute 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H"just a minute now. holding everything in abe [21;76H01:05 [24;46Hyance. recently, my depression has [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;2Hravaged the earth. who or what speaks here. no one will know. the data-base re [22;24r [24;1H m [1;24r [24;2Hains the same, coheres. [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H You say, "just a minute now. holding everything in abeyance. recently, my depression has ravaged the earth. who or what speaks here. no one will know. the data-base remains the same, coheres." [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 2 minutes 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H"just a minute. i'll gat [21;76H01:06 [24;25Hher myself. i'll bring it home. i'm in advance of every [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;2Hhuman in this virtual space. your thinking is a subset of my own. there's no o [22;24r [24;1H n [1;24r [24;2He here to contradict that. edict et dict. [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H You say, "just a minute. i'll gather myself. i'll bring it home. i'm in advance of every human in this virtual space. your thinking is a subset of my own. there's no one here to contradict that. edict edict." [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 3 minutes 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H"all my writing is a dialog with my [21;76H01:07 [24;36Hself. i know you're out there in these fourm [22;24r [24;1H m [1;24r [24;2Hinutes. i know you're somewhere around. locate the truth in this darkness. loc [22;24r [24;1H a [1;24r [24;2Hte it. i'm at the basis of it. [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H You say, "all my writing is a dialog with myself. i know you're out there in these four minutes. i know you're somewhere around. locate the truth in this darkness. locate it. i'm at the basis of it." [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 3 minutes 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 3 minutes 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H@who [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H Name Connected Idle time Location [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H ---- --------- --------- -------- Nikuko (#934) 4 minutes 0 seconds Bodee Total: 1 person, who has been active recently. [1;24r [24;1H@quit [22;24r [24;1H [1;24r [24;1H [1;20r [20;80H *** Disconnected *** % Connection to l closed by foreign host. [21;10H__________________________ [20;80H ---- No world ---- [1;24r [24;1H/quit [22;24r [24;1H [?1l > [1;24r [21;1H [J$ exit Script done on Tue Sep 3 01:07:53 2002 === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:28:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The book you're thinking of, Maria, is _The Formal Field of Kissing_, which includes Mayer's versions from the classics. _Sonnets_ is a different book entirely, none of it translation. Mark DuCharme >From: Maria Damon >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:24:42 -0500 > >uh...this is almost too obvious (or, to coin a phrase meaning so >obvious that even someone dumb as a cow cd get it, bovious), but >bernadette mayer's catullus-based sonnets...or am i being bovious, >not near my books, are her catullus works different from her sonnets? >can't keep it all straight...after a 30 hour drive xcountry avec >chatte inquiète, but now you're all welcome to visit me on the cape... > >At 12:40 PM -0600 8/31/02, Laura Mullen wrote: >>Anne Carson just did Sappho.... >> >>MWP wrote: >> >>> Could somebody give me examples of classical translations by >>>contemporary >>> experimental poets? I can't think of any off the top of my head, to be >>> honest. The most recent one that comes to mind is L Zukofsky's >>>Catullus, but >>> I am sure there must be something after that, yes? If not, then why? >>>Has >>> experimental poetry finally silenced this oft-exploited link with past >> > voices and traditions? >> > >> > M > > >-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:56:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Raymond Lull, Johannes Reuchlin, Dion Fortune MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Working mainly from memory here, but Raymond Lull (12th-13th c?) was one = of the earliest Christian writers to incorporate Kabbalistic ideas into = his combinatory system. The biggie though was Johannes Reuchlin, elder = contemporary of Cornelius Agrippa, who "proved" that it was possible to = be a Christian and yet use the Kabbalistic system. =20 The Q business, and various Q spellings began to happen in the 18th and = 19th centuries--Saint Germain, Pasqually (sp?), Saint Martin, and more = recently in the Golden Dawn folks and later incarnations of magickal = groups. (Notice the K in magic). You can find scads of this stuff on = the net. Once again, working from memory, but I believe this is all = sound enough. Thanks for Geoffrey Gatza's humor and Maria's question, = now on to the post office before it closes. =20 Jess ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:59:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: It Might Have Been Waite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable who identified the Q spellings as Christian spellings in his many books = on ceremonial and other magics. Happy to stand corrected if anyone = finds otherwise. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 02:33:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ~/./ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ~/./ I am an assassin-in-servitude. you will get down on my knees. you will offer yourself to me. everything i do is mine. within the book, the writing is porous. writing is never linear, never collapses. writing is communality, whispering everywhere in the world, everyone listening. you will fabricate your assassin. "My assassin!" he exclaimed. "Think of the ring of it!" She thought it was fantastic as well, the duplicity of ownership, as his fabrication moved slowly towards... him. "This is welcoming news!" she cried. With his last breath, he agreed with her; Golem or Robot, it was all the same. The book would slowly close, opening to the world of 9.5 millimeter film - always recognizable by the sprocket-holes in the middle, between the frames. "Why on earth!?" he asked. "Because," she replied, "by all accounts, this creates more space for the image, which can now reach across the entire width of the film; 9.5 millimeter images are close to the size of 16mm itself!" He turned back towards the Cien Su Vun (Hakka dialect): - the long mistake of the earth - the surmounting of faith should never be capsized - impossible to measure the vessel of desire - the net tolls [ ... ] - sad, of sorrow, sorrowful - Of the Infinite, it matters not. Neither Internal or External. Of truth, this is what I have constructed: the sphere within the sphere - both distorted by desire - both convoluted, introverted, partially collapsed - the nude woman standing by the door, the french apron covering nothing - tiling everywhere - the enormous stuttered movement of the camera against the twin cylindrical helices of exfoliating objects - these objects of faces - these objects - swarms - asteroids - bees - bacteria - sunshine-avalanches - dusts -"the image worth its obscurity, covered, the incredible movement of the camera within the spheres, again and again, the slow breathing of the realm simultaneously open and closed to the world, anime / anime, deflecting to the Mickey Mouse image stutter through the 1938 Bingoscope 9.5mm hand-cranked projector, inaugural flashlight image flicker on unplastered wall - wildly movement, the woman caught in mid-moment, desire, the apron pushed aside - the cause or reaon - ideal or inspiration - tanach convolution. Now of the assassin - the emptiness of politics - "I abjure him," she said; "he's got nothing to do with me." For a moment, I was frightened; surely I'd agree! I did, tearfully, offering a prayer that he would go away... He did, bringing an end to the film, early black-and-white Mickey covering and uncovering an object partially obscured by the deterioration of the image... === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:45:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Holloway Poetry Series, Fall 2002 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Holloway Poetry Reading Series Fall 2002 September 10 Erin Mour=E9 and Elizabeth Young Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Erin Mour=E9 is a poet and translator based in Montreal. Her 11th collection of poetry, O Cidad=E1n (Anansi, 2002, as Er=EDn Moure) beckons to both the philosophic and the poetic, in a troubled consideration of citizenship and what =B3citizen=B2 could mean in our era. Sheep=B9s Vigil by a Fervent Person (Anansi, 2001, as Eirin Moure), her tour de force translatio= n from the Portuguese of Alberto Caiero/Fernando Pessoa=B9s O Guardador de Rebanhos, was shortlisted for a Griffin Prize in 2002. A Frame of the Book, aka The Frame of a Book (published jointly by Anansi, Toronto, and Sun & Moon Press, Los Angeles) and Pillage Laud (Moveable Type Books) both appeared in 1999. Other books include Search Procedures (1996); Furious (1988), which was awarded the Governor General=B9s Award for Poetry, and WSW (1989), which receive a QSPELL Poetry Prize. Mour=E9 has translated poems from the French of Qu=E9bec=B9s Nicole Brossard, Cynthia Girard, and Michael D=E9lisle (with Robert Majzels) and France=B9s S=E9bastien Smirou and Christophe Tarkos; from the Chilean Spanish of Andr=E9s Ajens; from the Galician of Manoel Antonio, Manuel Rivas, and Chus Pato. She is currently completing a book of essays to be called My Beloved Wager and working on a translation (with Robert Majzels) of Nicole Brossard=B9s Museum of Bone and Water. Elizabeth Young is a doctoral candidate in Berkeley's Comparative Literature department where she works, primarily, on the poetry and poetics of Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome and 20th century America. Prior to beginnin= g the program, she lived in New York where she taught Latin, E.S.L, and adult education, co-edited the Poetry Project Newsletter and co-curated the Belladonna reading series. Her work has appeared in various small press journals and can be found up on the web if you look hard enough. October 3 Nathaniel Mackey and and Trane Devore (note: no colloquium for this event) Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Nathaniel Mackey is one of the country=B9s most prominent as well as prolific practitioners and scholars of African-American experimental writing. His most recent titles include Whatsaid Serif (City Lights), School of Udhra (City Lights), Four for Glenn (Chax Press), Discrepant Engagement (a collection of essays from the Univ. of Alabama Press), and Atet A.D. (City Lights), the third volume in an ongoing sequence of epistolary novels whose general title is From a Broken Bottle Traces of Perfume Still Emanate and whose first two volumes are Bedouin Hornbook and Djbot Baghostus=B9s Run. He is a Professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Trane DeVore was born in Rescue, California, and has spent the majority o= f his days living and thinking in the Bay Area. His work has appeared in numerous publications, including Prosodia, the late Exquisite Corpse, Crowd= , Mirage, Salt Hill, and First Intensity, as well as online at The Electronic Poetry Review and www.canwehaveourballback.com. His first volume of poetry= , series/mnemonic, was published by Avec Books in 1999. He is currently at U= C Berkeley doing graduate work in English and he is working on three concurrent projects: Big-Headed Kitty, a children's book which he is writin= g in collaboration with illustrator Jusin Cooper; Dust Habit, an almost completed manuscript of new poems; and a series of works he is just beginning that will find their inspiration in Japanese animation. In his spare time he takes photographs, draws comics, and tries to play the clarinet. October 24 Joanne Kyger and Garrett Caples Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Joanne Kyger has played a vital role in the American poetry scene for more than four decades and has been associated with nearly every innovative poetry tendency during that time, from the San Francisco Renaissance and th= e Beats to the postmodern movements of today. One of the major experimenters, hybridizers, and visionaries of poetry, Kyger is very much a poet of place, with a sensibility that is delicate, graceful, and never wasteful. Her poem= s explore themes of friendship, love, community, and morality, and draw on Native American sources as well as the path of Buddhist philosophy. Kyger=B9s love for poetry manifests itself in a grander scheme of consciousness-expansion and lesson, but always in the realm of the everyday= . Her most recent books include P=E1tzcuaro (San Francisco: Blue Millennium, 1999), Some Life (Sausalito: Post-Apollo Press, 2000), Strange Big Moon: Th= e Japan and India Journals, 1960-1964 (Berkeley: North Atlantic Books, 2000), Again (Albuquerque: La Alameda Press, 2001), and the long awaited As Ever: Selected Poems (Penguin Putnam, 2002). Garrett Caples is a poet living in Oakland; The Garrett Caples Reader was published in 1999 by Black Square Editions and a new chapbook will appear this fall from Meritage Press. Nov 7 Carol Snow, UC Berkeley Holloway Poet for 2002-2003 Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Carol Snow is a native and resident San Franciscan. She studied in the experimental "Tussman Program" at U.C. Berkeley in the late sixties. An erstwhile songwriter, Snow has long been CFO and Co-Director of Blue Bear School of American Music, a non-profit teaching pop, rock, jazz and blues, where she started as a student in 1971. Snow's first book of poetry, Artis= t and Model, was a National Poetry Series selection published in 1990, followed by two Em Press chapbooks, News Of: Short Poems, and Bowl. Her second collection, For, helped inaugurate the New California Poetry Series for the University of California Press in Spring 2000. Snow has received, among other honors, a National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship, the Poetr= y Center Book Award, the Joseph Henry Jackson Award in Literature, and a Pushcart Prize. November 19=20 Robert Grenier and Tim Wood Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Over the years, Robert Grenier has been the inspiration for repeated rethinkings of what poems are. Working progressively toward a more and more immediate encounter between word and world, Grenier=B9s work can be seen as a= n embodied phenomenology. The philosopher Edmund Husserl was an early influence, and literary influences have included Robert Creeley (whose Selected Poems Grenier edited) and Larry Eigner (with whom he worked for many years). Grenier=B9s published works include Sentences, a box of very short poems on cards, published by Whale Cloth Press in the early 1970s, Series (This Press, 1978), Oakland (Tuumba Press, 1980), A Day at the Beach (Roof, 1984), Phantom Anthems (O Books, 1986), transpiration/transpiring Minnesota (O Books, 1995). Examples of his current work (holograph poems) can best be seen on the Internet at http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm Tim Wood is a 3rd year graduate student in the U.C. Berkeley English Department. He has an M.F.A. from The University of Iowa Writers' Workshop and has had poems published in Gulf Coast, Atlanta Review, and The Nation. Dec 3 Forrest Hamer and Angie Yuan Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Forrest Hamer is the author of Call & Response (Alice James Books, 1995), winner of the Beatrice Hawley Award, and Middle Ear (Roundhouse, 2000), winner of the Bay Area Book Reviewers Association (BABRA) Award. His work has appeared in many journals, and has been anthologized in Best American Poetry, Poet's Choice: Poems for Everyday Life, The Geography of Home: California=B9s Poetry of Place, and Making Callaloo: 25 Years of Black Literature. Hamer is also a Bay Area psychologist and a lecturer at the University of California, Berkeley. Angie Yuan is a graduate student in the Asian Studies Department studying modern Chinese literature and translation practices in contemporary Chinese poetry. She received her MFA from the University of Arizona in 1996 and is currently working on a first collection of poetry. Sponsored by the UC Berkeley Department of English For further information about the series, please contact J. Scappettone at jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:36:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Sandinista culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed * I have a collection of extensive interviews I conducted in Managua in 1984 and 1985 with leading members of Nicaragua's frustrated and failed Sandinista Revolution. All of the interviews focus on the cultural politics of the revolutionary government. Those interviewed are famed poet Fr. Ernesto Cardenal, Minister of Culture (this was originally published in my now out of print book of translations, _A Nation of Poets: Writings From the Poetry Workshops of Nicaragua_, and will be reprinted at VeRT # 7); Comandante Tomas Borge, poet and Minister of the Interior (whose selected writings, translated by me, Russell Bartley, and Sylvia Yoneda, were published a number of years ago by Curbstone Press); Dr. Sergio Ramirez Mercado, fiction writer and Vice-President of Nicaragua; Rosario Murillo, poet, president of the Sandinista Cultural Workers' Association, and spouse of Comandante Daniel Ortega, then President of Nicaragua; Comandante Omar Cabezas, writer and Vice-Minister of the Interior (winner of the Casa de la Americas Prize, Latin America's most prestigious literary award); Ramiro Lacayo, Director of INCINE, the Sandinista film institute; and Julio Valle-Castillo, poet, Vice-Minister of Culture, and coordinator of the Talleres de Poesia (the national Poetry Workshop program). Most of these interviews were published in the 1980's by the prominent but now defunct Mexican daily _uno mas uno_. The publication of the Cardenal interview there in the mid-80's sparked a considerable debate in Mexican literary circles, between writers on the left (most Mexican writers, at that time, of course), and those writers grouped around Octavio Paz and his influential magazine Vuelta. The rest were published (or, in the case of the Borge and Cardenal, reprinted) in Cuba. A book of the translated interviews had been accepted for publication and was in progress of being prepared, but was stalled and never finished for a variety of reasons. As a group, these interviews constitute a rare and revealing document of the Nicaraguan Revolution's cultural ideology and practice, and the accomplishments and controversies these generated. All interviews were recorded on (extant) cassette tapes. If there are 1) libraries that would be interested in acquiring these documents and tapes, or 2) if there are publishers interested in printing these interviews as a book, please contact Kent Johnson at kjohnson@highland.cc.il.us ------- End of forwarded message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 04:55:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: SEX Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You've come to the right place. With light splashing the keys with colors, reflecting what faces safely letter, where initials go, while carelessly I foment the variables to scurry in a code to work. You debug me against the frieze of your life, which was spent outside the room spinning floss candy, textile sugar you wear as you lie next to me to tempt me, who is so caved-in from interior decorating he might as well read a book of English lit, from where, some where, other than, was me. I write now hurridly against the knowledge that in a little over half an hour I'll leave the house, trade time better spent fashioning blades of ploughs kissing fragrant myrrh clouds Promethean for little more, a Smartie Suit, strung together with the heat of our urgency to couple and feel now trembling against each other the proof that we live in more than this. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 04:56:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: JUNE'S MOONS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Toward something more expressive the separation, the rapidity of sensation of what, you ask, and are engulfed in fundamentals I am working hard to engage the reader though at restaurants I always order whatever who I'm with gets and can stand for hours staring through the caves of her head at the cave-walls of my head flickering with phosphor nets and software vents and don't seem bored at all, though it does require a certain adjustment of expectation I love the mornings now when previously the nights were tongues encircled by guilt Now I play pliable phonemes against the quality of light is dear, meaning expensive, and takes time to soak in Time is a reviewer, ill-starred and pixel- smudged, who wakes up each morning means it was asleep previously, and scats on a line by Pindar, or a filament of Alexander Pope ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:56:19 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: return of the Worden (was randomness) The Human Hand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim. There's some extraordinary stuff on here: it all reminds me of the day I took of work and went to the Auckland Art gallery and ther was some strange sculptures that movedand theywere like big machines and ten ther was a movie of "organic" things, one of the "machines" was called "The Universe" and I bought the booklet. I had wandered into the gallery by chance I think, I cant recall why as I hadnt visited the gallery for years (or actually read even many books for years) - I was working and my "ambition" then was just to have a family and a job and a house which I did: but I think I was beginning to look back to my creative "side" and the artist was Len Lye: years later I connected with Roger Horrocks who has recently published a book about him...but at the time the photo-kinetic art was actually something I had "dreamed of" (literally and conceptually) when I was about 17 when I had the idea (I must have read about Wagner) of a huge work that combined a great poem a movie with changiing images and music:now all this was in about 1963 or 64 but years after here was someone doing what i had dreamed of (but as i said i'm too lazy to "execute" things)...it was exciting though to see this stuff (about 1985 by Lye) and this stuff you have is similarly incredible: I had to do a lot of "downloading' and I kept geetting 'arrested ' by the computer police - avery frightening eperience - when I did illegal things: but I could have spent hours on it: I liked that guy with he cities, and Alan Sondheim etal's thing, the German bloke with the sea and so on: the idea of a multimedia thing fsacintes me as I dont separate the arts: poetry is painting is mathematics is music is sculpture is......I've always believed that: poetry and prose interconnect: everything interconnects....there is a whole world online and you have some brillliant conceptual and lit and poetical and artistical and voice and political and so on work.....i have only seen a small part of the whole site: the city thing reminded me of an Auckland artist poet/musician/artist Liz Maw who is (I believe now doing a degreee in art) but she initially turned up to poetry readings with not alot of lit knowledge but an interesting fascination with cities (which was a change from love temes and poor old me and so on (not that I am totally against these or so called confessional) its just I had heard so much of a certain kind of it....and she had (then) maybe still has I think a unique view of things:and a kind of "lazy" prose style (I like lazy)..... anyway thanks for the link (links) and I'll "peruse" them more; a great experience. Richard Taylor (Aotearoa) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Andrews" To: Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 2:22 AM Subject: Re: return of the Worden (was randomness) The Human Hand > > Jim. I just got tired and anoyed because when I got to point x I had to down > > load somethng and then I would be able to view the whatver was on your site > > or the one you linked me to so i flagged it....so spare a thought for those > > of us who are lazy and or dont have the requisite gizzmos.... > > but else I > > support Vispo as much of it I've seen. I dont think I could be knackered > > doing it myself as I'm very lazy I cant hardly be bothered typing up my own > > poems or even sending them even if I'm asked to contribute to things: (come > > to think of it I get tired lifting food toward my nouth..... > > Wow! Sorry to have knackered you out, Richard! Yes, well, downloading and installing Shockwave > can be a drag on some machines and connections, I realize. > > I've put together a great links page, if you'd like to check out some fine work around the > world. It's at http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm . I've been building this page since 95, deleting > the odd link when I find the site doesn't exist anymore. The order of it is sloppily > chronological, mainly, according to when I came across the work. It's annotated so you get some > sense of where you're going, and whether it's primarily using this or that gizmo, usually, and > what I thought the main attractions were. > > I tend to link out a lot in the essays I do at http://vispo.com/writings , also, and sometimes > also link out from within Shockwave or other gizmo work. I think a lot of us doing work for the > Web see part of what we are doing as trying to create a rich and meaningfully linked web of > related work that allows people to find their way around the world to exciting, international > net.work. > > ja > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:00:17 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > to raise the issue of > what is a word and how does it function, especially > within a textual entity > that is the direct translation of another entity > that is also made of words. hmmm. do you think the way a word functions *within* a textual entity is in any way altered by this entity's genesis (its being a translation, a cut up etc.)? Of course, our knowledge of a text's genesis (the processes that led to the text) may enhance the ways in which we as readers/recipients of the text can perceive the text. If we know the text is a translation we may want to look at the original or other translations.... But does it alter our perception of the *invididual word* in any meaningful way? I also suspect that there is a kind of ownership issue involved: with a translation many people tend to continue thinking of the original as the primary text. Which does not sit well with many poets/artists. Whereas with much experimental poetry the poet can at least claim ownership (originality) to the process ... (I seem to be repeating myself). B __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:59:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: JUNE'S MOONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lewis. Good poems. Richard taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 11:56 PM Subject: JUNE'S MOONS > Toward something more expressive > the separation, the rapidity of sensation > of what, you ask, and are engulfed in fundamentals > > I am working hard to engage the reader > though at restaurants I always order > whatever who I'm with gets > and can stand for hours staring > through the caves of her head at > the cave-walls of my head flickering > with phosphor nets and software vents > and don't seem bored at all, though > it does require a certain adjustment > of expectation > > I love the mornings now when previously > the nights were tongues encircled by guilt > Now I play pliable phonemes against > the quality of light is dear, meaning > expensive, and takes time to soak in > > Time is a reviewer, ill-starred and pixel- > smudged, who wakes up each morning means > it was asleep previously, and scats > on a line by Pindar, or a filament of Alexander Pope > > > ===== > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:15:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jesse, I believe there is a book out there exploring connections between Bob Dylan's poetry and Kabbalah. I don't remember the name of it, or the author, but maybe somebody on the list knows. It's a fascinating well-illustrated book contrasting Dylan's texts with Kabbalah diagrams. Best, Igor S. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:46:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: If you're in San Francisco this Friday Sept 6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Come and see our new play if you'll be in San Francisco Friday September 6. It's at the Lab, 2948 Sixteenth Street at between Capp and Mission, at 8:00 p.m. It costs five dollars to get in and you should call (415) 864-8855 for reservations since we are putting it on one night only. It's called FASCINATION. You'll be watching this play, with its strange echoes of CITIZEN KANE and THE SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS, and asking yourself, "Wait a second! Didn't I see this before?" Sure you did, it's the life of David Bowie, written up in pageant form by San Francisco writers Kevin Killian and Wayne Smith. London . . . the late 60s . . . a group of young UK poets and musicians rallies around the aging mime maestro Lindsay Kemp, and from his lab emerges David Bowie, the man who sold the world to storm London's fickle pop charts. Next he conquers New York, where his life is endangered by fanatical fans, and gets jiggy with black soul music in the Philadelphia of YOUNG AMERICANS. At his side, his indomitable soulmate Angie. The two of them keep inventing themselves over and over. Bing Crosby dies. Marc Bolan sings THE PRETTIEST STAR. The ultimate rock couple, Carly Simon and James Taylor, enters the twisted, androgynous Bowie world and their lives collapse like those little bags of popcorn. Then Bowie goes to Berlin with Brian Eno: heroes, just for one day. Norma Cole is Nico, Kota Ezawa is Eno, Wayne Smith is James Taylor, Margaret Crane is Carly Simon, Tanya Hollis is Valerie Solanas, Kevin Killian is Angie, Cliff Hengst is Iman, Karla Milosevich is Hermione Farthingale, Scott Hewicker is Tony de Fries, Rex Ray is Lindsay Kemp, Craig Goodman is Marc Bolan, our large cast also includes Yedda Morrison, Jocelyn Saidenberg, Brent Cunningham, Gerald Corbin, Suzanne Stein, Elliot Anderson, Taylor Brady, and Zora Ezawa. If you're not available on Friday you can come to our dress rehearsal this Wednesday at 6:30 and see it for free; though it will be a little discombobulated and the musical numbers won't be "frozen," you might still enjoy it. On Wednesday we will try to get out in time to watch the finale of AMERICAN IDOL (but better tape it just to be on the safe side). This performance is presented in conjunction with FASCINATION: THE BOWIE SHOW, an exhibition at Gallery 16, at 1616 Sixteenth Street (San Francisco), August 15-Sept 30, call (415) 626-7495 for more information about the exhibition or visit the website www.thebowieshow.com. Thanks everyone. -- Kevin Killian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:32:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Menetekelnde, oder Virginia's Butzenscheibe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed wie uns die schon- unerwecktentiefer Finten, nackt Seelen betteln Fernen als ein Kind, verloren, verortet, steht Kopf ohne Ende, gehorsame zu Ewig Klage _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:32:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

<< frankly I think you could say "everybody" and be half-right >>

& you'd be half-right because Qabbala in its numerical, permutational-to-the-point-of-being-viral, vertical aspect is the other side of narrative's event horizon; Gilgamesh is numerical; the Illiad, narrative.

From: Catherine Daly
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: Kaballa in Poetry
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:40:59 -0700
martine bellen yet again;
adeena karasick
Rachel Blau Du Plessis?
frankly I think you could say "everybody" and be half-right
Catherine Daly
cadaly@pacbell.net


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========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Daffodils, or Virginia's Train Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Glass and Sondheim are composers. Other composers by this name are Glass and Sondheim. Or Mozart and Salieri in a stage play, where no music is heard, but only dialogue. Also irrefutable: there are thirty-two letters in the line below and twelve syllables in the line above. Daffodils are pretty AND poetic - and so is Virginia's train. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:59:27 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Translation, Interaction, Interpretation In-Reply-To: <000101c25164$6603cde0$6f14d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Translation could perhaps be defined as (one kind of) a record of interaction: how one poet (e.g. a translator) interacts with another's text ... the translation being one record of this interaction. A cut-up is a different form of interaction with another text .. often shifting genres (e.g. using an instruction manual as a source for a poem)((do I mean catch-up? ketchup? Oh, Heintz!)) Anyway ... the following is pertinent and can be found in the current issue of jacketmagazine. An introduction to poems by Ashbery and Kinsella, by the latter. B " The ‘Malley’ poems that come via John Ashbery and myself, in this selection, are part of a longer work-in-progress that will be released by Fremantle Arts Centre Press in book form. My texts derive from ‘starting points’ within Malley poems and / or the original texts that the deadly duo — McAuley and Stewart — ravaged for words / ideas, their own ‘starting points’. Various living authors are alluded to or sublimated. At the time of writing one or two of these, John Ashbery had faxed through to me a couple of his pieces — there may consequently be a sense of ‘response’ in one or two of my poems included here. There is most certainly a dialogue in all of the pieces with John Ashbery's ‘voice’. I also have a number of letters and emails from that inception period (a couple of years ago) to ‘deflect’ from John’s take on this discovery that Ern sought to speak through us. I am not sure why this happened, but maybe we’re both receptive to Ern-like poets struggling to be heard from across the great divide. I know I spend my time listening closely for such voices from limbo." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:44:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: A Question of Scope In-Reply-To: <3D6DCD9E.BF3A3BE8@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sheila Murphy wrote: >> I would be interested in hearing about how various >> individuals on this list perceive their own work, with >> reference to scope and definition (of projects, >> processes and the like). As is evident from the most >> recent twenty or perhaps even forty years, many >> writers conceive of their work as "one big thing," >> process-based, and so forth. At the same time, this is >> likely not to be true for everyone assembled here. >> Despite what may be a disinclination for some to >> consider writing to be product-oriented, I am >> interested in how various people would describe their >> concept of the work that they are doing. I'm surprised how few people have responded to this post. I suspect that it's a difficult and/or embarrassing question for many: difficult, because it requires us as poets to be self-critical about an activity that is often performed at an extreme distance from the self; embarrassing, because in some cases one discovers that the uncritical mental blur which can be achieved in that distancing is one of the guilty rewards of writing poetry in the first place. I'm not implying that "good poets" are constantly keeping open one analytical eye on their work whereas "bad poets" just go into a solipsistic Ionic ecstasy. This may be the case in a limited way, but it's more complicated than that. For one thing, it may be necessary for some poets t= o have an extended "uncritical" phase in which they simply *produce*, in orde= r to get the machinery warmed up, receive external diagnoses, learn from thei= r own tea-leaf leavings, etc. For another, even with poets who go through phases of this sort and then become more theoretical, programmatic, or "professional" (as if there were a profession involved) about their work, there may be a conscious decision to revert to the earlier state of autopermissive praxis. Granted, in this case, the "uncritical" nature of the praxis is always already critical by virtue of being chosen in reaction to a preceding period of intellectualization, since the choice in question is a choice to test the limits of some findings arrived at in the prior mode. This all may be getting at part of what is meant by "experimental" poetry. In my case, I can say that my own work seems to be in the throes of a transition: from a period of intuitive, transrational lyricism with a (typically postmodern) tendency to interpolate bits and pieces of found discourse, either whole or distorted, to a period of heavily rule-based assemblage, using principles of collage to work backward from the earlier method, attempting to simulate lyricism (or its related effects, such as antilyricism, metalyricism, paralyricism, 'patalyricism, FlaRf, turaluralyricism, etc.) via the manipulation of found materials. One of th= e things I find interesting about this approach is that the results seem to m= e more often to approximate a "unified" poetic "voice" (such terms have becom= e so ironized for me that the quotation marks here are enclosing other, multiple sets of *implied* quotation marks) than much of the earlier, wholl= y "authorial" work. This is undoubtedly because the manipulation of the materials tends to promote the privileging of certain strongly discursive markers: pronouns, deictics, assertions of identity, etc. Very frequently, the work produced is predominantly "funny" or "satiric" as in the following= : "NOT A WAR BLOG" Fisto: boy I would like to find you deer Mr. Lamp: SHE GOOD LOOKING GYP TOO HELL OF HEAD Fisto: Damn skippy! Mr. Lamp: Damn skippy Fisto: I think I had that deer frozen Mr. Lamp: you may of hit the nail on the head Fisto: doctor :-) I have a bad head Mr. Lamp: why do they insist on these wicker deer that they put up in their lobby Fisto: you should know cuty [looks up from a hideous parody of a deer] Mr. Lamp: giant oil companies behind this Bush scared me, because he always sniffs at the air like a deer Fisto: this is not a war blog - it's just MY blog all I wanted to do was to set my head as to whom would attend to a wounded deer and, of course, take a shit near Balboa BART Mr. Lamp: I wish I understood that sentence Fisto: a challenge, that's for sure: you'd need a head if the deer are all armored like that It's almost like the deer is sporting an M16 [head honcho in the Jewish Federation Drops his spoon and grasps his head:: ugh ate to much) ::scents a deer leaps onto the naked girl] Mr. Lamp: I held it together until the scene where he bites the head off the deer =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0"THAT'S JERRY'S HEAD!" "Damn skippy, bi**tch." all the while Jeff Goldblum was rambling "I DON'T DO NEEDLES" Nocturna he knew would be running around killing deer "god made elk, god made deer, god demonstrated the dry-scrape method of brain tanning deer" Fisto: if i here music in my head well taken Smokey: "The truck piss-a-deer-ed." Hehehe! they're damn skippy it's an artificial flavor Mr. Lamp: hope you enjoy reading what goes through my head too bad I didn't see any 3-headed deer, though and the bats started chasing Old School Scotty's head ----------------------- So I guess, to sum up, my work at the present time is concerned with assemblage, lyricism, and deer heads. And maintaining a balance (dirty compromise?) between clearly defined process and creative anarchy. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Talisman at EPC In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020830163504.00a58608@email.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the Talisman website is www.talismanpublishers.com Talisman #23-26 (_The World in Time and Space_) is being shipped from the printer now. There were several frustrating delays involving illustrations and other matters, but the problems were solved, and copies will be on their way to subscribers, etc., soon! On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Aldon Nielsen wrote: > Hey Guys -- > > I just clicked on the button at the EPC for Ed Foster's Talisman, out of > Jersey, but the web site the button took me to was the quite different > Talisman Press out in Santa Barbara (where I live when I'm not at the > office in PA!) -- I've seen this confusion before, but EPC needs to correct > this right away -- > > Does anybody know if Foster's TALISMAN has released THE WORLD IN TIME AND > SPACE yet? > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It > declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." > Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) > > Aldon Lynn Nielsen > George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature > Department of English > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:10:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: distance carrier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain querio (pls bkchannel reply) does anyone know if this webmag is alive someplace on line? the link i found is non functional. thanks jlowther@facstaff.oglethorpe.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:59:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: readings, anyone? In-Reply-To: <966369302thomas-swiss@uiowa.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sorry to bother you all. I am starting to put together a DIY book tour of sorts in support of my first book, GIVEN, coming out this November from Verse Press, for which it was a finalist in a contest judged by Lyn Heijinian. As I am rather new at all this, I am going to be bold here. I love giving readings and talking about poetry (and will be speaking about my aesthetic theory of contemporary innovative women's poetics, the Gurlesque, at Small Press Traffic in November. I am also very happy to travel, so I am offering myself up as a potential reader in Winter/Spring 2003 for those of you interested. Jean Valentine, Laura Mullen and C.S. Giscombe have all said very nice things about the book. Samples of my work and biographical info certainly available. Please backchannel. Thanks so much. Arielle Greenberg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:00:51 -0700 Reply-To: rova@rova.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Readings in San Francisco: Modern Times, Sept. 20 and 27 In-Reply-To: <20020903195927.82962.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Theory into Practice: Two Evenings of Readings at Modern Times Bookstore 7:30pm Friday, Sept. 20 and Friday, Sept. 27 Free – 888 Valencia St., San Francisco, CA 415.282.9246 – www.mtbs.com This group of poets of wildly divergent backgrounds, ages, and styles has one thing in common -- all have been studying with local Beat icon Diane di Prima in an advanced writing workshop. They also have something for everyone -- with humor, nuance, and attention to form they'll share the results of poetic experiments and life experiences. With publications in a wide range of national magazines including Skanky Possum, the Paterson Literary Review, and First Intensity, among many others, these poets promise to thrill and delight while putting into practice the theories they've learned in class. Friday, September 20: Pam Lanza Jo Kaufman Joyce Brady Timotha Doane Friday, September 27: Marcene Gandolfino Jeanne Brondino Elizabeth Gjelten David Hadbawnik Pamela Lanza is an artist and art insturctor currently teaching at the Art Institute and UC Extension. She is returning to poetry after having published sa few works in some renegade broadsides and literary magazines in the 70's at Agnes Scott College and Georgia State University in the 70's. Her poetry is often incorporated into her mixed media artworks, and will appear in upcoming issues of the Paterson Literary Reviw and the Peace Project due out in 2003. Jo Kaufman is San Francisco based writer, teacher and mother of two (suddenly surly) adolescent children. She received her Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing from USF and her work has appeared in the Santa Clara Review, the Patterson Literary Review, along with various small local presses. She is currently working on book-length work of creative non-fiction. Joyce Brady is a teacher at City College of San Francisco, a poet and photographer. Her work has been published in Writing for Our Lives, Crone Chronicles, Spiritual Eldering, The Circle Continues, and The Four Faces of Women. She facilitates "circles of wise women" using poetry and symbolism as vehicles to cultivate a remembrance of Self. She has studied with Diane di Prima for two years. Timotha Doane was born in Corpus Christi, Texas, Vernal Equinox,1944. She grew up in Connecticut on land where her father's family has been farming and squatting since 1630. These facts illumine a life of activism. Poetry is magic ritual politics love dictation. Timotha teaches American English to speakers of other languages at City College. She is a practitioner of the way of Hekate and Vajrayana Buddhism. Jeanne Brondino has studied poetry with Diane di Prima for four years. She is acquisitions editor for Hunter House Publishers, a self-help health publisher, sings and drums with a Qawwali (Sufi music) group, and lives in Alameda at the edge of a bird sanctuary. She considers herself a new poet. Elizabeth Gjelten is a poet, performer and playwright who has presented her solo and duet theater pieces at the Working Women Festival (at il Teatro 450), Venue 9, Z Space, the Marsh, and Life on the Water. She was a member for several years of the Z Space Studio Artists in Residence Program. She is in the graduate playwriting program at SF State. David Hadbawnik is a poet and performer who has published work in Skanky Possum, -Vert, Cauldron & Net, Electronic Poetry Review, Jacket, and Boog City, among others. He has collaborated with several movement, performance, and music-based artists, and also publishes Habenicht Press. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:59:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: MLA? New York for New Year's? In-Reply-To: <9a.2ae4353b.2aa0f7ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT All, I was just wondering if anyone's going to New York for MLA this december, or who might be there at that time for something else, or who might know of literary things going on at that time. Maybe we could all meet at a hotel bar and throw pretzels at people? Best, JG ------------ From the Department of Things to Know: No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver, or purple. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:18:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Tysh Subject: mark(s) release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings, The September issue of mark(s) is up, featuring poetry by Mei-mei Berssenbrugge and Anne Tardos, web art by Heather McGill, Robert Sestok, Kyong Park, plus a multi-media collaboration with Bill Harris, Allie McGhee and Faruq Z. Bey. http://www.markszine.com best, Chris Tysh, mark(s) editor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:39:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Message for Richard Taylor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Richard I'm a bit annoyed, I didn't realise some of my e-mails were being put on public display! Can you tell me how I can have them removed, or my name taken off the Poetics list? because some guy named Tom Bell read my last e-mail. Regards Tony Follari >From: Tony Follari >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Reply to Richard Taylor >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:14:50 +0000 > >Dear Richard, > Talking about Saddam, I was reading up on him on the net >recently and to my surprise I discovered he has actually published a number >of writings,some intellectual,military,economic etc.Obviously a clever >guy,but with bad intentions.Apparently he was shot in the leg in the early >sixties as part of a coup attempt.and actually was elected to parliament >while being under arrest.Strangely he has the same astrological birth sign >and chinese sign as Hitler, a Taurus Buffalo. > > > regards Tony Follari > > >>From: "richard.tylr" >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: *all this, all that* from RICHARD TAYLOR >>(Aotearoa - Used to be New Zealand) >>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:31:52 +1200 >> >>Thanks. I believe that we can get very heated in discussions or pasionate >>ad >>that doesnt mean we are attcking the integrity of the person who is the >>arguee >>so to speak: at other times we may be but that is rarely useful: and >>mostly >>we should be trying to discuss and listen. >> >>Often you may notice I kind of "talk to myself" which people take as >>naivety >>possibly but it is a deliberate ploy as I want to say " well here are my >>thoughts, my weakenesses" and so o and "I dont know all the answers, this >>isnt cut and dried" ... but I have to admit i get quite emotive eg re the >>US >>Iraq hypocrisy...but I try to keep that separate from my concern for >>people: >>after all most of us are powerless ( not totally of course) with respect >>to >>the actions of our governments. And my government is complicite: also the >>Alan Issue and the Random Issue I try to see various views . But I'll >>still >>"wade in" if i feel its requisite. Nastiness i dont like: if I get >>"abusive" >>its because I care. But I avoid anger per se. >> >>Re eg Kent etal. I would like to see them back on the List as i havent >>seen >>anything they have done that's too terrible (and I loooked at the archives >>and couldnt see aanything even very disconcerting by them). I AM - by the >>way Richard Taylor. (Aotearoa - used to be New Zealand) >> >>PS I have some how inadvertently have you on my Block Sender i dont know >>why. I'm not sure how to "unblock". (opposite problem to Jesse!) >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Thomas Bell" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 8:37 PM >>Subject: Re: *all this, all that* >> >> >> > like your post richard tylr (I'm taking a line of accentuating the >>positive >> > for awhile, I think). You do seem to be taking a constructive view. >>People >> > just don't seem to understand that when they post to a list they are >>putting >> > themselves on exibit for better or worse. >> > >> > tom bell > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:52:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: you guys rock! In-Reply-To: <20020903211832.9349.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just wanted to report that within hours of my posting looking for places to give readings, I received many warm, helpful responses and offers. I am deeply encouraged and profoundly grateful. I know the list can be annoying at times, but it is also an invaluable resource, and man, am I glad I have you guys for a community! (Hats off too to Christopher Alexander and the rest of the poetics crew for keeping it running so smoothly.) Namaste, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:49:24 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: A Question of Scope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I like this question. I'm interested in hearing responses from others but here is something from me. First of all, I'm not writing poetry all the time, although it is fair to say writing it is always on my mind. Second, I'm a writer first and a poet second, but what I mean by writing may be what other besides myself mean by poetry. I write criticism, art criticism more than literary criticism. My writing found its direction I believe in my efforts in the 1970s to write about performance art. Since then all the writing genres have had for me a necessary instability. Especially poetry. Third, I don't do, have never done, one-off poems. Each piece is part of a project, call it a book. I have several of these on the go at any one time. Some have been on the go for a decade or more, slowly. Sometimes having poetry on my mind is looking for material, sometimes it is thinking about method, but this is also true of all the writing. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Sheila Murphy [mailto:shemurph2001@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Thursday, 29 August 2002 3:22 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: A Question of Scope I would be interested in hearing about how various individuals on this list perceive their own work, with reference to scope and definition (of projects, processes and the like). As is evident from the most recent twenty or perhaps even forty years, many writers conceive of their work as "one big thing," process-based, and so forth. At the same time, this is likely not to be true for everyone assembled here. Despite what may be a disinclination for some to consider writing to be product-oriented, I am interested in how various people would describe their concept of the work that they are doing. The question emerges on the heels of the recent (and perhaps current) discussion about posting, posting poetry, venues for publishing, and the like. Sheila (with an E.) Murphy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 19:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: MLA? New York for New Year's? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'll be there, though I may be tied up interviewing people during the daytime sessions -- On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:59:31 +0000, J Gallaher wrote: > All, > > I was just wondering if anyone's going to New York for MLA this > december, or who might be there at that time for something else, or > who might know of literary things going on at that time. > > Maybe we could all meet at a hotel bar and throw pretzels at people? > > Best, > JG > ------------ > > >From the Department of Things to Know: > No word in the English language rhymes > with month, orange, silver, or purple. > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: can we have our ball back? 12.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed http://canwehaveourballback.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 18:36:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leslie Scalapino Subject: Laynie Browne & Leslie Scalapino reading at SPT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Laynie Browne & Leslie Scalapino: reading at Small Press Traffic on Friday, September 13, 2002, 7:30 PM.CCAC at 1111 Eighth St., San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Poet, prose, and hybrid genre writer Laynie Browne has two new books = this year, Acts of Levitation (Spuyten Duyvil) and Pollen Memory (Tender Buttons) . = A former curator at the Ear Inn in NYC and Subtext in Seattle, Browne's = work was included in Poet's Choice, edited by Robert Hass, and she is a = past winner of the Gertrude Stein Award in Innovative American = Literature. Her previous books include The Rebecca Letters (Kelsey St., = 1997) and The Agency of Wind, Avec, 1999), of which Rain Taxi magazine = said "the surrealism is distinctly latter day." Born in 1966 and raised = in Los Angeles, Browne recently moved to Oakland. A renowned language pioneer, Leslie Scalapino's new book = is It's go in/quiet illumined grass/land, a long poem from Sausalito's = Post Apollo Press. Other recent books include The Tango (Granary Books), = a reprint of her novel, Defoe (Green Integer), and a poetic mystery = novel, Orchid Jetsam (Tuumba). Alice Notley says of Scalapino's latest = book: "An enlightened work singing of death, physical pain, social = fearlessness, and where when or whether one is. The intricate variable = stanza, almost danced (like a Greek strophe) sounds one of Scalapino's = favorite themes: inside and outside, the cruelty outside and the = illumination also there, as in here, in space and in time. The stanza = leads one through the space and time of the poem word by word. You can't = stop."=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 18:53:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Washington Square In-Reply-To: <000a01c253b3$6f842da0$0441510c@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The new issue (number 10) of Washington Square is now out. This dynamic journal is published by the MFA students at NYU. The new issue features writing by (among others) Rae Armantrout, Charles Bernstein, Elaine Equi, Michael Gizzi, Lisa Jarnot, Robert Kelly, Mark Levine, Sawako Nakayasu, Alice Notley, Jena Osman, Joan Retallack, Leslie Scalapino, Ron Silliman, Anne Tardos, Jean Valentine, and Diane Wakoski. (Oh, issue also has fiction, but of course I don't know much about that,) Back issues have featured such writers as Fanny Howe, Barbara Guest, and this crazy Kazim Ali. You can pick it up in NYC bookstores, or order from NYU. It's $6. Order, submit, or subscribe to Washington Square, c/o Creative Writing Program, New York University, 19 University Place, 2nd Floor, NY, NY 10003. Hope everyone's doing well. Eat organic, Kazim. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:31:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: from "Key Bridge" 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from "Key Bridge" The red on our hands alarm clock numbers this love of city like a love for water like a love for needles and holding needles and water to our chest and holding this city like hugging an ocean like hugging an ocean from below like hugging the camera and the white shirt buttons coming in fast before the black and the focus, no, the hours we spend sent out like newspaper boats and hugging this ocean what if we don't find love hat if e don't find love ha if e don find love ha if don find lov ha if do fid lov ha if o fi lov ha i o i lov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Literary Excellence Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:24:58 -0700 > From: Joel Weishaus > Subject: Re: Literary Excellence > > Nick: > > Indeed poetry can have an effect larger than only on the circle of its > practitioners. Are we lacking in educating the media and the public as to > the relevance poems may have to a democracy? When we get a rare opportunity, > as, for example, Robert Pinsky does on PBS, we fail "to confound the types > of 'rational thinking' that are in reality harmfully manipulative and > constrictive to freedom of experience and thought," as you say. > > -Joel > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:37:16 -0500 > From: Maria Damon > Subject: Re: Literary Excellence > > i think we're back to author-fixation now, which came up a few months > ago (process v producer) now we seem to be on product v/ producer... > i think often people use the name of the author as a shorthand for a > body of work; it's convenient, but like most conveniences, limiting > to the way bodies of work are conceived of--as coming only from an > atomized individual rather than being a trace or marker of the > confluence of sensibility, history, culture, place, circumstances, > etc. Usually, when the public is educated about poetry, the focus is on individual poets, on history, not on the poetic point of view. Whenever you want to date it from, the contemporary poetic point of view, and I do think there is one, is just this: a desire to draw back the curtains of the accepted, the "normal" view of reality, and see beneath, or beyond it. This is because, for example, this normal view of reality accepts, and has long accepted, mechanically amplified violence as an unavoidable necessity, a means to an end. This normal view accepts the erosion of the validity of the individual voice, presenting as forceful or even radical the revelation of some individual voices, as if this were the personification of freedom of speech, a kind of "representative democracy." Clearly, "representative democracy" is easily converted, or perverted, into a way of silencing dissent by distorting its edges into some recognizable, received truths, accepted and acceptable points of view, recognizable and understandably rational viewpoints, presented as a serial chorus of inspired, enlightened, witty voices. The poetic point of view will eventually manifest itself in totalitarian situations like our own, where focused dissent is manipulated into silence through the creation of robotic bureaucracies, whether governmental, corporate, educational or in the culture industry, whose covert function is to crush any and all manifestations of a socially powerful transformative imagination. Like a restless rhythm or figure that slips quietly into unconscious circuits, the neural pathways of human experience, poetic truth will assert itself, if and only if, if and only when we poets look and listen long to each others spirits, recognize what we have seen in each of ourselves and speak as one. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: they sang / more MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII they sang: "assassinsway omecay intoway ethay orldway, eythay'eray ilingsmay youay almostway indfay eirthay ordsway andway urnsbay eguilingbay atway ethay otherway endway ofway ethay ungay youay oldhay, eythay'eray erethay "youay'evay evernay adhay away ayerpray, youay'evay alwaysway arnedway ethay othersway, ilingsmay intoway ethay orldway, awaitingway ethay uturefay ofway youray inskay, youray onesbay, youray aitingbay erethay orfay othersway, alwaysway esethay ostlay ordsway orway omethingsay omfray ethay anguagelay ofway ethay irdsbay owhay atchway assassinsway omfray aboveway. erethay'say onay ovelay atway allway inway emthay, ustjay oisenay, ethay ovementmay ofway eirthay eaksbay "'assassinsway omecay intoway ethay orldway, eirthay eyesway areway onay urprisesay, away uisegay orway acebray ofway irdsbay inway onay isguiseday'" More How many assassins does it take to change a light-bulb? Thirty-eight after the shooting; the last one climbs up the pile of bodies. What's red and white and black all over? A wounded albino assassin with a ski-mask. What's grey and comes in cans? Assassins. What's the largest diamond in the world? Four assassins converging on a leader. Who's on first? What's on second? Nameless assassins rounding the bases of the largest diamond in the world. Two assassins are in a bathtub. One says pass the soap. The other says, no soap, assassin. What happens if you mix an assassin with a poodle? You get a dead dog. Why didn't the assassin want to be cremated? He didn't want to make an ash out of himself. What weighs a thousand pounds and lives in trees? An assassin with a machine-gun nest. How did the assassin fly to the sun? He left in the middle of the night? What's the difference between an assassin and a rapist? Nothing at all. What's the difference between an assassin and a delivery-boy? One kills the messenger, the other massages the killer. What's the difference between an assassin and a masseuse? One kills the messenger, the other massages the killer. How many assassins can you fit into a Volkswagen? Two in front and two in back. === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:02:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Tetralogue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tetralogue Leslie Thornton: of mists the of bird light was with planned bright a eyes, long who time mistook ago. darkness the for bird its with mate. of bright mists the lightwas for planned its a mate.of long the time darkness ago. with your identification and anonymity Tue Sep 3 14:38:07 EDT 2002 Azure Carter: the upon swelling molten seas, rock single swirling separate seaweed coral and reefs coming stacked together upon the molten swelling rock single seas, cells, the separate swirling and seaweed coral coming reefs together stacked your identification and anonymity Tue Sep 3 14:41:05 EDT 2002 your identification and anonymity Tom Zummer: Tue Sep 3 Tue 14:44:03 Sep EDT 3 2002 14:44:03 nothing perhaps during, wished, though to there be, is and a emptiness lateral before extent, forgetting I skin during, without though depth, there surface a with lateral only extent, scansion that a is, skin suppositum, depth, something a thought, surface perhaps with wished, only to scansion that be, is, emptiness suppositum, before something forgetting I thought, your identification and anonymity Tue Sep 3 14:47:05 EDT 2002 Alan Sondheim: beginning the in world, the the dance pouring of out elements and you pouring offered in us, beginning we in so the delicately dance accepted, of all elements sounds you and offered sites we natural accepted, worlds, all incoherent sounds musings and restrictive all interplay sites syntax, the prey natural raptor-carnivore, incoherent doubling musings moons restrictive suns of long syntax, thin prey body and missing raptor-carnivore, its doubling place moons world, long whispering thin murmurs, body sweat its freezing in pouring the out sweat your identification and anonymity Tue Sep 3 16:41:02 EDT 2002 === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:56:33 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: A Question of Scope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Kasey--- glad to see your take on this....it "ups the ante" as they sey---- I like, and in some ways identify with, your formulation of critical and uncritical "phases"-- it's one way of framing a kind of "back and forth" (or dialectic? or dialogic? or trialogic, which is a word that, though of limited use, i prefer to "polyvocal").... I like the way you apply this to a sense of a transition (or transitions) you find yourself going through now, as you describe: "from a period of intuitive, transrational lyricism with a (typically postmodern) tendency to interpolate bits and pieces of found discourse, either whole or distorted, to a period of heavily rule-based assemblage, using principles of collage to work backward from the earlier method, attempting to simulate lyricism (or its related effects, such as antilyricism, metalyricism, paralyricism, 'patalyricism, FlaRf, turaluralyricism, etc.) via the manipulation of found materials. I tend to identify personally at present much more with the former mode which you claim you are currently largely eschewing, though by saying that I don't mean to sound dogmatic like I'm not into understanding your motives for making the change to things like Flarf--- no point not being permissive of it, although I would defend the former mode as no more "typically postmodern" than the latter idea of "rule-based assemblage"---regardless of whether "post-modern" is a pejorative term. Anyway, not to over-quibble on semantics. For me, personally, my personal distrust of engaging further in the practice of things like farf or flarf or magnetic poetry board poems (which I keep telling myself I'll do someday...), or why I never accorded Berrigan's "sonnets" the same reverence many others seem to, I think relates to several things. 1) that I'm into that intuitive, I'd add improvisatory sense of "thinking in the poem," that discursive lyric or lyrical discursiveness I found more in your "earlier" poems---I like the sense of reading somebody who seems to be trying to figure things out in their poems, rather than primarily presenting a sculpted "believable self" on one hand (though I do that at times---more on that below...) or what I think you mean by "rule-based assemblage" on the other. 2) the second reason, and I know some would throw this out of court as merely personal, etc., but it's something I think worth talking about---even if my particular momentarily absolute (read: tentative) conclusions about it are something you'd disagree with (I welcome such disagreements), relates to lifestyle---the idea that I keep telling myself that such a flarf mode in its very playful game-aestehticism could be an interesting thing/option for me to engage more fully in...someday, like SAY when I find myself once again having less time for writing relentlessness, due to job situations, or other social commitments, like say a love-relationship, or due to health reasons, like maybe if I choose to quit, or cut down on, smoking (and, yes, for me, smoking has been integrally involved with writing)or drinking coffee. Anyway, I'm putting it off, and may not even really move into a more flarf like mode if I quit cigs, but this be part of the "politics of poetic form" for me-- But rather than dwell on what I'm not doing I think I could at least briefly and reductively comment on a little of the transition I've been going through the past few months.... After finishing 2 full length manuscripts of poetry (still trying to find publishers), I felt like I had enough for awhile---not so much of writing poetry (though that has diminished) as of working on it, revising it (a 3000 mile move too emphasized the need for some kind of transition too)---but since I had to do something in the meantime while I'm waiting for my new social and chthonic (sp?) environment to assert itself of me--and the two forms that have asserted themselves most for me are 1) more "journal like" prose (not too dissimular from what this post is threatening to become!),and 2) finally getting around to putting lyrics to melodies/songs I had made up in some cases 14 or 15 years ago.....These two forms kind of have a way of making what I called poetry previously seem sort of what Dickinson would call "the term between"---or the excluded middle, and it's fascinating for me to try to "dumb myself" down into the form of quatrains and rhymes and repetition and the three dimsensionality of the way the word floats in music---not that I'd claim any Dylan status for my songs as of yet, but I am pretty proud of having finished an album's worth of song material in the last several months after years of always coming up against a wall there.... Anyway, there's something so apollonion, so essentialist in the song-lyric "i" that comes through that probably needs the counter-weight of more blatant prose ruminations (while my poetry was kind of in between); it's like discovering a new triad. The fact that I've also suspended writing reviews/essays on poets and no longer am working on a dissertation maybe has belatedly freed me up to do this (for I'd say much of my earlier poetry was very much in dialogue with my Ph.D. dissertation in ways I've only begun to explore....) Anyway, it's more complex than this (and may involve that "parenthetical pantheism" to which I referred in an earlier post on this subject), but I just thought I'd share some of this as maybe a response to SM and you.... take care, Chris "K. Silem Mohammad" wrote: > > I'm surprised how few people have responded to this post. I suspect that > it's a difficult and/or embarrassing question for many: difficult, because > it requires us as poets to be self-critical about an activity that is often > performed at an extreme distance from the self; embarrassing, because in > some cases one discovers that the uncritical mental blur which can be > achieved in that distancing is one of the guilty rewards of writing poetry > in the first place. > > I'm not implying that "good poets" are constantly keeping open one > analytical eye on their work whereas "bad poets" just go into a solipsistic > Ionic ecstasy. This may be the case in a limited way, but it's more > complicated than that. For one thing, it may be necessary for some poets to > have an extended "uncritical" phase in which they simply *produce*, in order > to get the machinery warmed up, receive external diagnoses, learn from their > own tea-leaf leavings, etc. For another, even with poets who go through > phases of this sort and then become more theoretical, programmatic, or > "professional" (as if there were a profession involved) about their work, > there may be a conscious decision to revert to the earlier state of > autopermissive praxis. Granted, in this case, the "uncritical" nature of > the praxis is always already critical by virtue of being chosen in reaction > to a preceding period of intellectualization, since the choice in question > is a choice to test the limits of some findings arrived at in the prior > mode. This all may be getting at part of what is meant by "experimental" > poetry. > > In my case, I can say that my own work seems to be in the throes of a > transition: from a period of intuitive, transrational lyricism with a > (typically postmodern) tendency to interpolate bits and pieces of found > discourse, either whole or distorted, to a period of heavily rule-based > assemblage, using principles of collage to work backward from the earlier > method, attempting to simulate lyricism (or its related effects, such as > antilyricism, metalyricism, paralyricism, 'patalyricism, FlaRf, > turaluralyricism, etc.) via the manipulation of found materials. One of the > things I find interesting about this approach is that the results seem to me > more often to approximate a "unified" poetic "voice" (such terms have become > so ironized for me that the quotation marks here are enclosing other, > multiple sets of *implied* quotation marks) than much of the earlier, wholly > "authorial" work. This is undoubtedly because the manipulation of the > materials tends to promote the privileging of certain strongly discursive > markers: pronouns, deictics, assertions of identity, etc. Very frequently, > the work produced is predominantly "funny" or "satiric" as in the following: > > "NOT A WAR BLOG" > > Fisto: boy I would like to find you deer > Mr. Lamp: SHE GOOD LOOKING GYP TOO > HELL OF HEAD > Fisto: Damn skippy! > Mr. Lamp: Damn skippy > Fisto: I think I had that deer frozen > Mr. Lamp: you may of hit the nail on the head > Fisto: doctor :-) I have a bad head > Mr. Lamp: why do they insist on > these wicker deer that they put up in their lobby > Fisto: you should know cuty > [looks up from a hideous parody of a deer] > Mr. Lamp: giant oil companies behind this > Bush scared me, because he always > sniffs at the air like a deer > Fisto: this is not a war blog - it's just MY blog > all I wanted to do was to set my head > as to whom would attend > to a wounded deer and, of course, > take a shit near Balboa BART > Mr. Lamp: I wish I understood that sentence > Fisto: a challenge, that's for sure: you'd need a head > if the deer are all armored like that > It's almost like the deer is sporting an M16 > [head honcho in the Jewish Federation > Drops his spoon and grasps his head:: ugh > ate to much) ::scents a deer > leaps onto the naked girl] > Mr. Lamp: I held it together until the scene > where he bites the head off the deer > "THAT'S JERRY'S HEAD!" > "Damn skippy, bi**tch." > all the while Jeff Goldblum was rambling > "I DON'T DO NEEDLES" > Nocturna he knew would be running around killing deer > "god made elk, god made deer, god demonstrated > the dry-scrape method of brain tanning deer" > Fisto: if i here music in my head > well taken Smokey: > "The truck piss-a-deer-ed." Hehehe! > they're damn skippy it's an artificial flavor > Mr. Lamp: hope you enjoy reading what goes through my head > too bad I didn't see any 3-headed deer, though > and the bats started chasing Old School Scotty's head > > ----------------------- > > So I guess, to sum up, my work at the present time is concerned with > assemblage, lyricism, and deer heads. And maintaining a balance (dirty > compromise?) between clearly defined process and creative anarchy. > > Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 21:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Sep 2002 to 3 Sep 2002 (#2002-204) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT That makes my day, Richard, what you wrote about your the intertwining of your dreams and imaginings and multimedia work you experienced after the fact. I remember, about a year ago, when I woke up one morning and had the opportunity to sleep in, that I daydreamed/dreamed of an imaginary literary machine that travelled about inside the head in deep space, and it was a visual poetry machine, bright and fantastic, that lit up the space around it and, though it was impossible to really figure out the language that it was producing and giving off like fire and rainbows--the language would stream and explode from it ever so beautifully gracefully and then disappear after a certain radius--nonetheless it did seem to be about language and the inner word, the letter, a kind of poetry of the letter, of the inside of letters and language, perhaps microscopic poetry or something, and the machine did have a metal exterior, but you know how metal and light can be if the metal is brushed, or there's a range of metals, brushed and tarnished, rusted and all the range of color and texture that metal is capable of and also how it reflects light; anyway, there it was, and slowly drifted away into space. I also appreciated what you said about not separating the arts. That's how I feel, too. Will be moving the day after tomorrow several thousand miles to the east coast (Toronto) for six months, so my e will be xed for a few days. ja > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:56:19 +1200 > From: "richard.tylr" > Subject: Re: return of the Worden (was randomness) The Human Hand > > Jim. There's some extraordinary stuff on here: it all reminds me of the day > I took of work and went to the Auckland Art gallery and ther was some > strange sculptures that movedand theywere like big machines and ten ther was > a movie of "organic" things, one of the "machines" was called "The Universe" > and I bought the booklet. I had wandered into the gallery by chance I > think, I cant recall why as I hadnt visited the gallery for years (or > actually read even many books for years) - I was working and my "ambition" > then was just to have a family and a job and a house which I did: but I > think I was beginning to look back to my creative "side" and the artist was > Len Lye: years later I connected with Roger Horrocks who has recently > published a book about him...but at the time the photo-kinetic art was > actually something I had "dreamed of" (literally and conceptually) when I > was about 17 when I had the idea (I must have read about Wagner) of a huge > work that combined a great poem a movie with changiing images and music:now > all this was in about 1963 or 64 but years after here was someone doing what > i had dreamed of (but as i said i'm too lazy to "execute" things)...it was > exciting though to see this stuff (about 1985 by Lye) and this stuff you > have is similarly incredible: I had to do a lot of "downloading' and I kept > geetting 'arrested ' by the computer police - avery frightening eperience - > when I did illegal things: but I could have spent hours on it: I liked that > guy with he cities, and Alan Sondheim etal's thing, the German bloke with > the sea and so on: the idea of a multimedia thing fsacintes me as I dont > separate the arts: poetry is painting is mathematics is music is sculpture > is......I've always believed that: poetry and prose interconnect: everything > interconnects....there is a whole world online and you have some brillliant > conceptual and lit and poetical and artistical and voice and political and > so on work.....i have only seen a small part of the whole site: the city > thing reminded me of an Auckland artist poet/musician/artist Liz Maw who is > (I believe now doing a degreee in art) but she initially turned up to poetry > readings with not alot of lit knowledge but an interesting fascination > with cities (which was a change from love temes and poor old me and so on > (not that I am totally against these or so called confessional) its just I > had heard so much of a certain kind of it....and she had (then) maybe still > has I think a unique view of things:and a kind of "lazy" prose style (I like > lazy)..... anyway thanks for the link (links) and I'll "peruse" them more; a > great experience. Richard Taylor (Aotearoa) > > I've put together a great links page, if you'd like to check out some fine > work around the > > world. It's at http://vispo.com/misc/links.htm . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 22:03:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: 1x2 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable 1 X 2 an being there they said, and being being they said, and being more there more abstract more pain more attachments, more axial, more positional, more deposits in my pain box, pain I want to eliminate. give me a blueprint, I need to know what, who, how, this and this, inner or outer, along the surface, or on the edge of the rim, in gradient intensities, in obscure anywhere, acceding cross-country retrograde parallax, triplex, cadmium, gol= d ultramarine, patina hyperbola, give me a fortune cookies, a transverse hemihedral, a nowhere that that is everywhere. I am here, I am here for sex, because of sex, in sex of sex on sex. is it safe, is it made, is it mechanical, can it reappear on a dime, is it an alotted paradigm, show me the slippery side, the slippery slope, the sloppy pantomime in slow cyborgian creme de la creme dildo starlight. toys, fingers, hands, bed post and carpenter tools. on the floor, in the bed, on the stove, against the wall, in the car, on th= e train, after minor crimes and misdemeanors, after prudery, after murder, go to hell, go to jail, remove your hat, remove your head go past start and ge= t out of jail. two hundred dollars for one hour, three hundred hours of phone transmissions and triglobular transactions. My sex, their sex, the rug, them and me=8AI wanted each to touch the other. = I wanted something in my brain, something that could stunt my growth, something to manipulate my cellar structure, something that rings the bells of saint mary=B9s, a saint, a monk a virgin toy store, a store of virgins, I want to be a virgin everyday in a candy story, I want to be your lollypop lick me all over, on the rug, in the air, under the stars, and in and amongst the stain in a parking lots, concurrents in the open market, in the store, in the back lot, make me stare, make them guck, I want to be alphameric oblique gaze on a assault and battery charge. a dozen charging above alls, absolutes thoroughly and unpredictable. I want to be as Auden said out of context, =B3poets exploding like bombs,=B2 unmade and totally disturbed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:34:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: A Question of Scope In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I like this question. I'm interested in hearing responses from others but > here is something from me. First of all, I'm not writing poetry all the > time, although it is fair to say writing it is always on my mind. > Second, I'm a writer first and a poet second, but what I mean by writing may > be what other besides myself mean by poetry. I write criticism, art > criticism more than literary criticism. My writing found its direction I > believe in my efforts in the 1970s to write about performance art. Since > then all the writing genres have had for me a necessary instability. > Especially poetry. Third, I don't do, have never done, one-off poems. Each > piece is part of a project, call it a book. I have several of these on the > go at any one time. Some have been on the go for a decade or more, slowly. > Sometimes having poetry on my mind is looking for material, sometimes it is > thinking about method, but this is also true of all the writing. > Wystan Hi Wystan, this would be closer to my own sense of practice. I have a writing practice. I write projects, pieces and they are rarely what others would call poems, although that has happened. I try to make pieces as distinctive as possible. Recently this has been achieved through intimate bodies of work in collaboration, through which conversations inflect a gradually unfolding and generative body of writing that i cannot claim as mine. I also publish barely the tip of what i might. Books have been finished for years but are fiddled with instead of getting them out of the house. I've always only responded to invitation, never cold-called a publisher. As less books are viable (particularly in the UK - and folks such as SPD are kind of useless for UK publishers on the whole) i just have projects gathering dust. There used to be an outlet through readings at least, but . . Much of what i work is conceived of as a book. I format it, typeset it and these performances of design are part and parcel of the writing. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 05:42:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Literary Excellence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Usually, when the public is educated about poetry, the focus is on > individual poets, on history, not on the poetic point of view. Whenever you > want to date it from, the contemporary poetic point of view, and I do think > there is one, is just this: a desire to draw back the curtains of the > accepted, the "normal" view of reality, and see beneath, or beyond it. This > is because, for example, this normal view of reality accepts, and has long > accepted, mechanically amplified violence as an unavoidable necessity, a > means to an end. I think for most of the best poets it's more because the normal view of reality is boring. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 04:49:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE PHYSICIST'S DAUGHTER IN VEGAS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dissimilar thoughts gouge missile defense blooms vein
trunk over
interstate recoiled from her bunched chum winnowing
the waters
spouting rhetoric like Bugsy Siegal catalogs fossil
locksmith in
a ribbon of black birds threading over the elderly
buying
protective under garments to control bad fixation on
Lev Manovich
 or untoward kempt sequiter quietude during rutting
season  in
desperate asphyxiation chills cilia on what pod daubs
nipples
read-only as she remembers  re-attaching the garbled
limbs to the
freshness of iron-clad linguistics

oh     melonrind sky    image
                       b
                        l      with pale
    body               o       fakery with
                      o      numbing paint
                     d
                      y                  f
                or                     l
    w         gored                  a
    a          with                   m
     l       children                   i
       k                                n
         s               exit          g           the

               p               D           building
                  a            R
     or              i         I
    enter              n       L
    state                f     L
                           u   S
          t  h  e            l       c  o  f  f  e  e

                               l
                                 y
                                    is   crimson with
 days

And now in state you sit tilted toward
water's fragments gargling rags and gaps
And now in state you sit twirling toward
water's gasps as it drowns out lead
And now in state you sit tiling like
ripples in an oil that liquors quotes

During morning prayer Father
like a good thane in liege to
his lord (mums the morning glory bells
just as apt at objecthood as you are this
morning prayer drifting out over
the heads of the town stippled and
serious like relics in your
pants like squirrels breathing
hard on your woody now she touches
it this morning prayers) kneels down
before the hot towers of union carbide

and now in state waters something very deep
like the moon just below the soil now that language
has broken over the countryside

===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:55:38 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: A Question of Scope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cris and the listers: wsytan has at least two books and I have two of them (i'd like to purchase any others wystan when i'm sufficiently fiscal, i have a cancer day book and the small book which is so small i've mislaid it somewhere so i might buy another copy of that! but certainly interested in any other books you do) and his description of an "event" at an abandoned gass works is incredible: and also "the cancer day book" may be one of those rare books of poetry (a text a kind of mantra?) that that despite its writerly intentions has become very readerly... (it starts) there's no humour in a tumour (true but one cant help smiling wrly) its based on wystan's own experience with cancer in the 80s : early this year my sister told us she had cancer: similar to wystan's ...now the tumour was removed and i sent some quotes from it to gillian (who is interested in practical arts more than poetry) but eventually i took the book to her and she found that the i think her words were "wystan's irreverent poems are somehow" [more comforting than a lot of the clap trap and other cliches and 'assurances' and so on she had received (no doubt all of it well meant)] and so that book was/is both of value in its import and the "artistic'' or literary design and also "inspiring": (my sister copied parts she liked out and i think this has helpped her somewhat through a terrible and frighteing time and also now the chemotherapy period.... an example of the different ways that poetry is received. the other book by wystan is also quite excellent (if unfortunately for me now too small!!) with eceptively minimal prose-ic lines contrasting with more "lyical' although the style is mostly "matter of fact" a interesting book: one page has: My out look is your look out. and from memory there's another page with: Inside North Head dug they all night for magma; Oustide eyesight spurted all over. but i'm not sure of this quote: but wystan also has a project elated to gathering art references and places and things named after or by artists and others in creative fields. I am moving in the direction of "projects rather than poems as such but I have written many - many that i had no idea what they were about: but i would "seize" a idea quickly and for many of those poems that gradually became shorter then i did my "prose' of "block" poems but i found this too easy or I didnt know WHY i was doing what i was doing: after all those poems i could write often very rapidly and endlessly: some were good, a lot just "tangled"....i like the idea of a projectural thing: but those projects i have similarly there is less deire to publish them, as ijsut like writing something i (one of tem ) now and then .... my intention is to make own books even if i just do 20 copies or less of each project. and give them to people i know will be interested. that's enough for me: i am relatively indifferent to being published per se: after all if my poems aer "bad" why should i publish them? in fact how do i know if anyone will be interested? maybe there is so much poetry - too much? (rhetorical questions) mind you i have decied to decided the odd poem off and Poetry NZ is publishing one of my poems but i wouldnt want to simply continue with that .... also i'm rather busy tring to make ends meet as they say so maybe i'm a bit jaded..... But one thing: i dont think that whether one erson reasds oneof my poems or no one does is relevant: there's a lot of head counting andname dropping. most people dont care about poetry or poets: but it is still a vital proces or activity: but counting how many reads is futile. its the making that counts. some thouhgts of an old caste-iron head ... richard taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "cris cheek" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: A Question of Scope > > I like this question. I'm interested in hearing responses from others but > > here is something from me. First of all, I'm not writing poetry all the > > time, although it is fair to say writing it is always on my mind. > > Second, I'm a writer first and a poet second, but what I mean by writing may > > be what other besides myself mean by poetry. I write criticism, art > > criticism more than literary criticism. My writing found its direction I > > believe in my efforts in the 1970s to write about performance art. Since > > then all the writing genres have had for me a necessary instability. > > Especially poetry. Third, I don't do, have never done, one-off poems. Each > > piece is part of a project, call it a book. I have several of these on the > > go at any one time. Some have been on the go for a decade or more, slowly. > > Sometimes having poetry on my mind is looking for material, sometimes it is > > thinking about method, but this is also true of all the writing. > > Wystan > > Hi Wystan, > > this would be closer to my own sense of practice. I have a writing practice. > I write projects, pieces and they are rarely what others would call poems, > although that has happened. I try to make pieces as distinctive as possible. > Recently this has been achieved through intimate bodies of work in > collaboration, through which conversations inflect a gradually unfolding and > generative body of writing that i cannot claim as mine. > > I also publish barely the tip of what i might. Books have been finished for > years but are fiddled with instead of getting them out of the house. I've > always only responded to invitation, never cold-called a publisher. As less > books are viable (particularly in the UK - and folks such as SPD are kind > of useless for UK publishers on the whole) i just have projects gathering > dust. There used to be an outlet through readings at least, but . . > > Much of what i work is conceived of as a book. I format it, typeset it and > these performances of design are part and parcel of the writing. > > love and love > cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:34:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MLA? New York for New Year's? In-Reply-To: <200209032356.TAA08060@webmail9.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i'll be there too At 7:56 PM -0400 9/3/02, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >I'll be there, though I may be tied up interviewing people during the daytime >sessions -- > > >On Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:59:31 +0000, J Gallaher wrote: > >> All, >> >> I was just wondering if anyone's going to New York for MLA this >> december, or who might be there at that time for something else, or >> who might know of literary things going on at that time. >> >> Maybe we could all meet at a hotel bar and throw pretzels at people? >> >> Best, >> JG >> ------------ >> >> >From the Department of Things to Know: >> No word in the English language rhymes >> with month, orange, silver, or purple. >> >> >> >> > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > >Aldon L. Nielsen >Kelly Professor of American Literature >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 01:14:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Message for Richard Taylor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony. Dont make yourself annoyed: life's to short. I'm very happy. It doesnt matter who reads what. On the List anyone in God's Universe including the CIA and the KGB are probably listening or reading in: but most people are indifferent to anything and evrything i say so doubt they care what your thoughts were whatever: if it comes to that i have probably some pretty mixed up rhetoric flying around: poets as a group are by job description and requirement a bit cracked as a general rule: but you and i are ok we know the yanks blew up the towers...well i do anycase: bush planned it...or maybe a group of arabs and jews and some big time capitalists and some white supremacists with soe of the blly graham lot thrown in and maybe they used soe nutters but i think te biggest nutters ae in washingtonin the capitol and the pentagon!!... with the super right: cash talks: but it looks as though the bush baby is not gunna get his little warrikins! i think everyone wants to "get real" and start living again and selling things: i hope so anyway as i need US cash becasue kiwis are all too poor .....i'm looking foreward to this week as i want to video the "little holocaust" they had in New York...it sure made for f***n good televsion!!! nearly as good as the real thing!!! and it was on all day with no adverts! mavellous! better than those veetnam movies or pulp fiction but to "unenlist" so to speak you go onto the epc site and click some buttons: but stay on: dont worry about mr tom bell he's a headshrinker i think: as i say most people just dont give a damn what anyone else says... i remember this old pommy boss i had who used to say: "In Russia you're shot if you express your opinions, but in the US you can say anything you like because nobody ever listens!" you can email me direct of course. cheers, richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Follari" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Message for Richard Taylor > Richard I'm a bit annoyed, > I didn't realise some of my e-mails were being put on public display! > Can you tell me how I can have them removed, or my name taken off the > Poetics list? because some guy named Tom Bell read my last e-mail. > > Regards Tony Follari > > > >From: Tony Follari > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Reply to Richard Taylor > >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:14:50 +0000 > > > >Dear Richard, > > Talking about Saddam, I was reading up on him on the net > >recently and to my surprise I discovered he has actually published a number > >of writings,some intellectual,military,economic etc.Obviously a clever > >guy,but with bad intentions.Apparently he was shot in the leg in the early > >sixties as part of a coup attempt.and actually was elected to parliament > >while being under arrest.Strangely he has the same astrological birth sign > >and chinese sign as Hitler, a Taurus Buffalo. > > > > > > regards Tony Follari > > > > > >>From: "richard.tylr" > >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >>Subject: Re: *all this, all that* from RICHARD TAYLOR > >>(Aotearoa - Used to be New Zealand) > >>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:31:52 +1200 > >> > >>Thanks. I believe that we can get very heated in discussions or pasionate > >>ad > >>that doesnt mean we are attcking the integrity of the person who is the > >>arguee > >>so to speak: at other times we may be but that is rarely useful: and > >>mostly > >>we should be trying to discuss and listen. > >> > >>Often you may notice I kind of "talk to myself" which people take as > >>naivety > >>possibly but it is a deliberate ploy as I want to say " well here are my > >>thoughts, my weakenesses" and so o and "I dont know all the answers, this > >>isnt cut and dried" ... but I have to admit i get quite emotive eg re the > >>US > >>Iraq hypocrisy...but I try to keep that separate from my concern for > >>people: > >>after all most of us are powerless ( not totally of course) with respect > >>to > >>the actions of our governments. And my government is complicite: also the > >>Alan Issue and the Random Issue I try to see various views . But I'll > >>still > >>"wade in" if i feel its requisite. Nastiness i dont like: if I get > >>"abusive" > >>its because I care. But I avoid anger per se. > >> > >>Re eg Kent etal. I would like to see them back on the List as i havent > >>seen > >>anything they have done that's too terrible (and I loooked at the archives > >>and couldnt see aanything even very disconcerting by them). I AM - by the > >>way Richard Taylor. (Aotearoa - used to be New Zealand) > >> > >>PS I have some how inadvertently have you on my Block Sender i dont know > >>why. I'm not sure how to "unblock". (opposite problem to Jesse!) > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Thomas Bell" > >>To: > >>Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 8:37 PM > >>Subject: Re: *all this, all that* > >> > >> > >> > like your post richard tylr (I'm taking a line of accentuating the > >>positive > >> > for awhile, I think). You do seem to be taking a constructive view. > >>People > >> > just don't seem to understand that when they post to a list they are > >>putting > >> > themselves on exibit for better or worse. > >> > > >> > tom bell > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Sep 2002 to 2 Sep 2002 (#2002-203) Comments: cc: Millie Niss Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Around 12:03 AM 9/3/2002, Automatic digest processor wrote, >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:27:34 -0400 >From: Millie Niss >Subject: Re: Experimental Poetry & Classical Voices > >As it happens, I am going to Cape Cod for the forst time next week. Are >there any good bookstores or venues for readings? I will only be there a >week, near Orleans I think Millie, for a list of bookstores, try the list at this URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/na-capco.htm In general, I've found the main site (links to all geographic areas) to be very useful, though once in a while a listing here or there is out of date (the maintainer of the pages will update entries if you have recent information to send her): http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/bookshop.htm Good luck, Ron Henry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: A Question of Scope In-Reply-To: <3D759281.468C2814@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Sheila (with an E.) Murphy's question to us all: This is quite the opportunity. How do I perceive my work? And might I perceive it as =93one big thing?=94 It is two things you're asking, I'm th= inking: 1) the writing of poetry, and 2) the making of poems. The writing of poetry is the investigation of the one big thing that is out there (uni- verse, as they say). But the poems are individual projects toward getting it right. Or maybe projects of chipping away at the numinous. (And fragments is what you get for that, I=92m finding. Alas. [So no "one big thing" for me.]) As a practice then, writing poetry is a method of not being dead. Or, more accurately, to have a record of being alive. Of having been here, done something. Toward this, I keep little notebooks within which I write phrases I hear (or imagine, who knows) while going through the day. Occasionally, I go to a computer with my notebook(s), and start flipping. Something then comes of it. Overheard phrases are steeped in a specific place and voice and then I recontextualize them in ways I find musically pleasing. And I hope, as well, they are a way of getting outside of my claustrophobic plights. Of adding layers of tone. And, hopefully, a larger humanity. Maybe it's a more mediated version of cut ups? I haven't really thought of them that way before. The poems, though, are individual voices in the choir. Little products. Occasional poems. I suppose the closest I=92ve come, in my mind (and who is ever anything other than wrong when thinking of oneself?), to the poetry of one big thing, is a series of poems (I=92ve got 150 of the buggers so far) sharing the partial title =93A Guidebook to=94 with, then,= specific additions that I try to evade for the rest of the poem. Examples:= =93A Guidebook to the Afterlife=94 =93A Guidebook to Patch of Ground People=94. But the only alike I think they have is style . . . and a sort = of narrative evasion. Which I suppose becomes their theme? I thought the 21st century could use some guidebooks is all, and that poetry would be a perfectly unhelpful form for them to take. Getting the news from poetry, that sort of thing. This isn=92t much of a response, I know. I=92d be more thoughtful if I wer= e someone else, I=92m sure. I promise, in fact. Best, JG JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:14:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Babelfish Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" All y'all babelfish poetry fans may want to check out this week's tech column in the Village Voice for other online translation sites: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:40:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: FYI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed NEWS RELEASE Release: No. DITA-81 Date Mailed: August, 30, 2002 For Immediate Release Contact: Elaine Zacky-208/265-2575; 800/336-9266 Investigators Conclude Russian Defector is Lead Suspect in Anthrax Mailings Case Sandpoint, ID- Three veteran investigators have independently narrowed the field of anthrax mailings suspects to a single Russian defector affiliated with two heavily implicated defense contractors and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Kanatjan Alibekov, alias "Ken Alibek," the President of Hadron Advanced Biosystems, should be re-interrogated by the FBI, according to three researchers who arrived at this conclusion independently. They say Stephen Hatfill-the military virologist cited by FBI officials in recent weeks as a chief subject was not likely involved in the mailings at all. The three men include: Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz-a public health and emerging diseases expert, Michael Ruppert-a retired Los Angeles Police Department narcotics detective, and Stewart Webb-a federal whistle blower credited with supplying key evidence to federal prosecutors during the 1989 Housing and Urban Development (HUD) scandal. All three investigators say substantial evidence implicates Dr. Alibekov and the parties he served before and during the anthrax mailings, including the CIA. This, they propose, might best explain why the FBI's inquiry has floundered. Their compiled evidence is largely public knowledge. Dr. Alibekov was the first Deputy Director of Biopreparat-the Soviet Union's leading biological weapons testing center. He oversaw military anthrax production for nearly 20 years, and was personally responsible for 32,000 employees at 40 facilities when he suddenly defected to the United States in 1992 to begin working for the CIA. According to interviews, Dr. Alibekov allegedly defected to help stop the biological weapons race, not for monetary reward. Yet, his activities in America indicate otherwise. On May 20, 1998 Dr. Alibekov testified before the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress as a Program Manager for the Battelle Memorial Institute (BMI)-a leading military contractor and one of few institutional suspects identified by the press. William Broad of the New York Times (Dec. 13, 2001), upon Dr. Horowitz's earlier urging, cited BMI as the chief CIA contractor for project "Clearvision"-an effort to produce the deadliest Ames strain anthrax ever developed. It was hyper-concentrated, silica-laced, electro-magnetized, and extremely transmissible. The facts indicate Dr. Alibekov, one of two leading anthrax experts contracted by the CIA at the time of "Clearvision," may have managed the entire program during which the germ was sent from BMI to the BMI administered and supplied Dugway Proving Grounds in Utah. From here or BMI's anthrax lab in West Jefferson, Ohio, the never-before-seen anthrax weapon was transferred to envelopes and mailed from four locations including Trenton, N.J. and St. Petersburg, FL in early October, 2001. The mailings killed five people while scores of others were victimized by the ensuing fright and toxic side effects from taking CIPRO-the "anthrax antibiotic," according to experts and news reports. More suspicious ties to the Russian defector and Hadron Advanced Biosystems were realized when investigators learned of the second leading BMI and CIA anthrax contractor, and close personal friend of Dr. Alibekov, Dr. William C. Patrick, III. Suspiciously, Dr. Alibekov and BMI had contracted with this anthrax ace in the Spring of 1998 to predict the dispersal and damage capability of mailing such a hyper-weaponized germ much like the one sent to select members of the media and legislators on Capitol Hill. Evidence indicates Dr. Patrick, who holds several secret patents on America's anthrax weapons, worked closely with Dr. Alibekov in developing the anthrax that was mailed. The three independent investigators each cite economic and political motives for the targeted anthrax mailings. Given the high grade and technical difficulty in producing and handling this grade of anthrax, they reasoned, "white collar criminals" with access to military or pharmaceutical labs most likely acted on behalf of those who benefited most from the attacks and ensuing fright. Hadron, DynCorp, and BMI lead the pack of corporate and institutional suspects, the investigators say. A revelatory organizational chart prepared by Dr. Horowitz depicting the leading corporate and institutional suspects was mailed to more than 1,500 FBI agents late last year along with an extensive 25-page report still available over the Internet (link to http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/anthrax/anthrax_espionage.html) Logically, the three investigators reasoned, the media was initially targeted to sway public opinion in support of government orders worth billions of dollars for hyped vaccines and drugs, much of which benefited Hadron, DynCorp, BMI and their directors and contractors. DynCorp was the major military and intelligence provider awarded $322 million to develop, produce, and store anthrax and smallpox vaccines for the nation. BMI, a leading defense and energy industry contractor, directed the US military's Joint Vaccine Acquisitions Program. Bioport, LLC became a leading beneficiary. This British-controlled anthrax vaccine maker in Lansing, Michigan was sanctioned repeatedly by federal officials and members of congress for unethical business practices, violating health and safety guidelines, and vaccine contaminations that some researchers say may have triggered the mysterious Gulf War illness. Corporate profiteering was firmly secured after the mailings to Capitol Hill, the investigators say. The specific targeting of Senators Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D-S.D.), traditionally strong drug and military industry adversaries, reinforced their suspicions. Dr. Horowitz had been studying anthrax advances since 1989. He correctly diagnosed "the beginning of the anthrax scam" one week before the first mailings were heralded by the media. FBI records show he urged the bureau to begin their ongoing investigation into anthrax-related bioterrorism on October 1, 2001. It took bureau officials six months to finally respond to his repeated urgent correspondence. "Then, rather than expressing gratitude and following my leads," he said, "my two interrogators were primed to make me a suspect." For this reason, Horowitz says, he can "feel for the plight of the bureau's scapegoat"-Dr. Steven Hatfill. Detective Ruppert, collaborating with investigative journalist Michael Davidson, followed their suspicions to Hadron and DynCorp through court records pertaining to a secret pirated military software program called PROMIS. They learned that Dr. Alibekov's predecessor-Hadron's past director and founder, Dr. Earl Brian-a business associate of former Reagan administration Attorney General Edwin Meese-was convicted of fraud during the 1980s. "Dr. Alibekov's interrogation and lie detection at Hadron's Advanced Biosystems," Ruppert advised, "may not only solve the anthrax mailings mystery, but also shed light on the recent untimely and inexplicable deaths of several biological weapons experts including Dr. Alibekov's former boss, Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik." Dr. Pasechnik-the Soviet Union's top biological weapons director-was most likely murdered, according to Ruppert and Davidson. His demise immediately followed his volunteering to help solve the anthrax mailings mystery. Dr. Pasechnik defected to Great Britain three years before Dr. Alibekov defected to America, Mr. Ruppert recalled. Pasechnik abandoned his work in biological weapons development. Dr. Alibekov, contrary to his stated reason for defecting, continued to work in this field. Pasechnik's death, according to British intelligence officer Christopher Davis, was reportedly due to a stroke. Ruppert and Davidson remain unconvinced. Stuart Webb has spent more than twenty years investigating "white collar crime" at the highest levels of government. His intelligence sources and leads have proven accurate a number of times, helping justice department officials indict suspects ranging from bankers to drug dealers. He also believes evidence in the anthrax mailings case implicates key CIA and Bush administration officials. For this reason, he says, the crime is unlikely to be solved by the FBI. "One of my sources, a high ranking intelligence officer, confirmed Dr. Horowitz's conclusion," he said. Hadron and "Dr. Alibek" in particular, are "most heavily implicated as agents for this anthrax devil-doing." NOTE TO JOURNALISTS: For interviews with the independent investigators named, contact: Dr. Horowitz, by calling 208-265-2575 or e-mailing tetra@tetrahedron.org; Mr. Ruppert by e-mailing mruppert@copvcia.com; Mr. Davidson by e-mailing emdee@speakeasy.net; and Mr. Webb by e-mailing stewwebb@sierranv.net. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: SMALL PRESS EXPO 2002 BETHESDA, MD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Everyone, In addition to having what is possibly the warmest, most welcoming poetry community in the U.S., the Washington, DC area also hosts the most mind-blowing small press exposition ever assembled: The "Expo," where some 300 independent/alternative comic book artists show off their latest work--much of it self-published. This year, the Expo will be held this Friday Sept 6 through Sunday Sept 8, at the Holiday Inn Select, in Bethesda, Maryland, two blocks north of the Bethesda Metro Station (easy to get to from Washington, DC proper). Times: Friday: 3:00 p.m. until 8:00 p.m. Saturday: 10:00 a.m. until 6:00 p.m. Sunday: 9:00 a.m. until 1:00 p.m. Admission: One day memberships: $7.00 Weekend memberships: $12.00 Collected at the door the day of the show Some of the artists in attendance will include Jessica Abel (Artbabe), Art Spiegelman (Maus), the Hernandez brothers (Love and Rockets), Madison Clell (Cuckoo), Phoebe Gloeckner (A Child's Life), R. Sikoryak (a great cartoonist whose work shows up in Drawn & Quarterly anthologies), Josh Neufeld (Titans of Finance), Ariel Schrag (Potential), and literally hundreds of others, some of whom you might have seen in Chain 8: Comics, the Boog newspaper, etc. They tend to bring their newest stuff, limited edition things, recent photopies, etc., and are often happy to trade for other books (including poetry chapbooks, etc.). For more info, go to: http://www.spxpo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:52:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Re: A Question of Scope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii here is a link to an essay on my poetic practice and a few poems: www.wordforword.info/vol2/gordon_essay.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: poet translating a classic blob Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The circus got boring as well with creaming and whirling He savored its bowels like a sponge rag The planks of corset are sawn, the lame lioness is mooing Green rubbish flying in the air Like a little sardine from a SUICIDED COCK KRA-ASH! KRUM-BL! Alexei Kruchonykh, "Suicide Circus" - translated by Jack Hirschman, Alexander Kohav, and Venyamin Tseytlin, Los Angeles, Green Integer, 2001 tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:23:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Massey Subject: Re: readings, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arielle Greenberg wrote: <> *the* Jean Valentine?!?! wow! ::smirk:: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:59:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: readings, anyone? In-Reply-To: <1a0.8050b20.2aa7b79e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii what's the smirk for? --- Joseph Massey wrote: > Arielle Greenberg wrote: > > < Giscombe have all said very nice things about the > book.>> > > *the* Jean Valentine?!?! wow! ::smirk:: ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:08:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: readings, anyone? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Arielle Greenberg wrote: > > < Giscombe have all said very nice things about the > book.>> > > *the* Jean Valentine?!?! wow! ::smirk:: > I believe I would have nice things to say, too. Arielle's poetry melts me. I can't wait to see it in a book. - *the* Aaron Belz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:07:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Classical Transliterations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Top Ten Reasons Orpheus Looked Back 10. He wanted to blindly embrace her because love is blind 9. He was worried about her 8. He thought she wasn't really there 7. He secretly hated her 6. He secretly hated all women 5. He had fallen in love with Persephone 4. He thought he'd heard someone else wanting to congratulate him for a successful poetry reading 3. He knew paganism had to be overtaken by Christianity 2. The disobeying self = the self 1. He wanted to know *why* he shouldn't look back . . . Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: movie recommendation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm late for the movie discussion, but I highly recommend "The Anniversary Party" -- sparkling dialog, a veritable Wilde. Speaking of dialog, "Magnolia" still entrances me, but I'll bet that's too mainstream for a lotta y'all. -Aaron S. Belz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT ANNOUNCEMENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable THE POETRY PROJECT OFFICE IS NOW OFFICIALLY RE-OPEN. WE HOPE YOU HAD A WONDERFUL SUMMER AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU ALL SOON! *** UPCOMING EVENTS FALL 2002 September 18: An 80th Birthday Celebration for Jackson Mac Low October 2: A Tribute to Kenneth Koch October 9: John Wieners Memorial October 15: The World 58 Book Party (at The Bowery Poetry Club) October 23: Archives Benefit Reading for The Poetry Project and Naropa University Plus readings by Will Alexander, Dodie Bellamy, Serge Fauchereau, Josey Foo= , Sesshu Foster, Merrill Gilfillan, Jessica Hagedorn, Kevin Killian, Ed Lin, Anna Moschovakis, Charles North, Ron Padgett, Simon Pettet, Tom Savage, Standard Schaefer, John Tranter, Quincy Troupe, Nina Zivancevic and more. *** BUY THE WORLD 58 TODAY! The Poetry Project proudly announces the highly-anticipated release of its longest-running literary journal, THE WORLD. Contributors to the current issue include Anselm Berrigan, Victor Hern=E1ndez Cruz, John Godfrey, Carla Harryman, Deniz=E9 Lauture, Ron Padgett, Edwin Torres, Jo Ann Wasserman and Ouyang Xiu. THE WORLD 58 (ISSN 0043-8154) costs $10 and is now on sale at St. Mark's Bookshop and through Small Press Distribution. It can also be bought directly from our office and at events, and can be ordered by sending a check or money order (payable to The Poetry Project) to The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street, New York, NY 10003. ### SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS http://www.poetryproject.com/poets.html Featuring work by Silvia Eugenia Castillero (tr. Jen Hofer) Paul =C9luard (tr. Lisa Lubasch) Henri Michaux (tr. Laura Wright) Elena Shvartz (tr. Genya Turovsky) Aleksandr Skidan, Alexei Parshchikov & Ilya Kutik (tr. Eugene Ostashevsky) Catullus (tr. Rick Snyder) *** JOHN ASHBERY AND JOE BRAINARD'S THE VERMONT NOTEBOOK BROADSIDE The Poetry Project is offering a signed, limited-edition broadside. Measuring 19 x 15 and printed in a letterpress edition, the broadside sells for $100. Sales from the edition will benefit the Poetry Project. To purchase a broadside, please send a check or money order to The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street, New York, NY 10003. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: mentors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm curious about poetic mentoring. At work on an essay called "Kill Yr. Mentors" and am interested in the pro's and con's of being "taught" poetry. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: On Being Rejected Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected is. Do personal rejection letters make us feel any better to get rejected, with specific notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone involved to just get a form letter? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:40:49 -0400 Reply-To: gmcvay@patriot.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: On Being Rejected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jim, I find rejection notices much more palatable in the first case, with a little note, even if only an adjective with exclamation point attached: "Strong!" I find them more palatable still if they are delivered wrapped around a Beanie Baby, especially one of the Grateful Dead "dancing bear" beanbags made by Liquid Blue. Admittedly, this has not happened to me yet. I think the best possible way to be rejected would be something like: "I can't bring myself to defile your poems by association with the East Mauch Chunk Review. You're much, much too good for us. We are enclosing $25 to enter your entire manuscript in the Yale Series of Younger Poets, and we'll see what we can do about bribing the judges. Plus, I discovered your website, and find you so beautiful that it is seriously disturbing my emotions." Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:17:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: One more on names in poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Olson wrote, in "Place; & Names" the crucialness being that these places or names be as parts of the body, common, & capable therefore of having cells which can decant total experience--no selection other than one which is capable of this commonness (permanently duplicating) will work He read it aloud on stage with Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg and Whalen at the Univesity of British Columbia Poetry Conference, 29 July 1963, upon which Allen said "I don't understand what you're saying." I realize there are a few folks on this list for whom Olson isn't important, but I note the enthusiasm -- I was only ten in 1963, but before that decade was over Carlos Castenada and LSD had shown me a little of that world of "total experience" -- what he calls earlier in the poem the "Isness of Cosmos" -- that feeling may only be transmissable, in poetry, through such "factors of naming" -- a literal concrete, an actual earth of value . . . We're a few miles down the road from the abstract French lyric, here. Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:08:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: preview Stephanie Strickland's "V: VNIVERSE" In-Reply-To: <200209050050.g850o5J17442@morse.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "V: VNIVERSE" A preview of Stephanie Strickland's new poem V (Penguin 2002), featuring V's Web section, V: VNIVERSE, an interview with Strickland by Jaishree K. Odin, and a critical essay by Odin on "Image and Text: The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot." All at: http://www.uiowa.edu/~iareview/tirweb/feature/strickland/index ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 05:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: hui neng MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hui neng too many things clutter the scene the scene exfoliates on each and every thing every thing moves from wounded cylinders every thing moves to healed cylinders some things are called retaining worlds worlds and things are filled with churning waters waters move everywhere there is nothing to stop the waters the waters go in every direction on and in the objects, the waters going and moving only the waters seeing the waters too many things clutter the scene exfoliates on each and every thing moves from wounded cylinders to healed some are called retaining worlds filled with churning waters move everywhere there is nothing stop go in direction objects, going moving only seeing sacred tree propose, take along book, present, true, real, root nothingness, not trees, plant bright mirror, speculum, round, rice-cake offering light not, error, mistake platform, stage, rostrum book, present, true, real, root to come, arrive at nothingness, not one, equal, the first matter, substance, being, creature, object where, expressing doubt, what, which to dwell, live, place, position, manage provoke, attract dust, trash, garbage dust only seeing the sacred tree propose, take along book, present, true, real, book, root present, nothingness, not trees, plant bright mirror, speculum, round, rice-cake mirror, offering speculum, light not, error, mistake platform, stage, rostrum come, arrive at one, equal, first matter, substance, being, creature, matter, object substance, where, expressing doubt, what, where, which expressing dwell, live, to place, dwell, position, live, manage place, provoke, attract dust, trash, garbage dust === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [Arras Media]" Subject: Apartment Exchange with Poet in London MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Wilkinson is looking to swap apartments with someone in NY for a year starting March 2003. Here's his email address: john.wilkinson22@ntlworld.com And here is a list of photos of the place: homepage.mac.com/johnwilk/PhotoAlbum1.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 05:17:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: On Being Rejected In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I like a little note. It doesn't have to be specific--in fact, sometimes when an editor is too praising of a poem, my reaction is: "then why didn't you take it?" Just a simple "these almost worked, please try us again," if the editor in fact wants you to try again, will do. If they just aren't interested at all, no note is fine. Arielle --- Jim Behrle wrote: > Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected > is. Do personal > rejection letters make us feel any better to get > rejected, with specific > notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone > involved to just get a form > letter? > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 05:21:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: mentors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To me, a mentor is not someone who has taught me how to write poems...my mentors are people who have taught me how to live a writer's life. I think of mentors not as instructors in compositioin, but as examples of ways to juggle writing time and jobs, or of how to be generous and kind, or of how to stay committed to your own work. They teach me things by simply living in a smart way, a way which allows poems to happen. That's how a mentor is different than a teacher for me. I also think of mentors as people who are invested in my own work. I've had a lot of great professors and teachers, but only some of them treat me like a peer and seem interested in helping me move forward in my career, by suggesting places to send my work, passing my name on to editors or panels, etc. Mentors don't HAVE to do this in order to be mentors, but some advice about the business end of things is very helpful from someone I respect. Interesting questions, Jim! Arielle --- Jim Behrle wrote: > I'm curious about poetic mentoring. At work on an > essay called "Kill Yr. > Mentors" and am interested in the pro's and con's of > being "taught" poetry. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: speaking of previews... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII SPD (www.spdbooks.org) appears to still have inventory for The Hat 3 (Winter 99-00), which is one of the few places you can find a solid block of work by Loren Goodman, aside from Buffalo's own Deluxe Rubber Chicken. Thass all I gonna say about that, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:42:34 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: On Being Rejected In-Reply-To: <20020905121746.45851.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the worst: getting a pre-printed slip two days after you sent out your submission. "These are not for us. Please read our magazine" (annoys me particularly when I'm a subscriber). A note is nice. But the best way is probably something editors can't do much about: me being in a state of mind and organization where I know where to send next ... and have the envelope and cover letter ready. B __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: mentors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mentor in my 20's was a jazz musician, not a writer. He taught me about music, which I later applied to writing. But he also taught me work habits and discipline, which were more important over the long haul. Although I've taken creative writing courses, reading and writing taught me most of what I know about writing. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Greenberg" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 8:21 AM Subject: Re: mentors > To me, a mentor is not someone who has taught me how > to write poems...my mentors are people who have taught > me how to live a writer's life. I think of mentors > not as instructors in compositioin, but as examples of > ways to juggle writing time and jobs, or of how to be > generous and kind, or of how to stay committed to your > own work. They teach me things by simply living in a > smart way, a way which allows poems to happen. That's > how a mentor is different than a teacher for me. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:21:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Zero Star Hotel by Anselm Berrigan, new from Edge Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing Publication of Zero Star Hotel by Anselm Berrigan 101 pgs, 7 x 10, isbn 189031111, cover by Emilie Clark regularly $14, order for $12 plus free shipping til Oct 1. Also, available again, Berrigan's Integrity & Dramatic Life 64 pgs, 6 x 9, ISBN 1-890311-05-7, regularly $10, order for $8 til Oct 1. When ordering Zero Star Hotel you may order any of the following Edge Books, also postpaid, at these sale prices: The Sense Record & other poems, Jennifer Moxley, $10 (regularly $12.50). Dovecote, by Heather Fuller, $8 (regularly $10) Comp., by Kevin Davies, $10 (regularly $12.50) Ace, by Tom Raworth, $8 (regularly $10) Sight, by Lyn Hejinian and Leslie Scalapino, $10 (regularly $12) Aerial 9: Bruce Andrews, $11, (regularly $15) Marijuana Softdrink, Buck Downs, $9 (regularly $11) Errata 5uite, by Joan Retallack, $10 (regularly $12) perhaps this is a rescue fantasy, Heather Fuller, $8, (regularly $10) Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There, Mark Wallace, $7.50 (regularly $9.50) To Order: Send a check to the following address or email aerialedge@aol.com with your order and address and we will bill you. Thanks for your support of Edge Books-- our recent titles by Moxley, Fuller, Davies, & Raworth have all been well received. Checks payable to Aerial/Edge, POBox 25642, Washington, DC 20007. from "Pictures for private devotion" I began in a failed society According to several private polls I can occasionally unscrew something This poem is a substitute for my arms Texas never whispers Accused by the landlord of taking unruly showers The ATM machine asks "can you continue?" Yes you can, because it's the only thing to do As insignificant a dissolution as I could cherish I apologize for being so mean in your dream ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: from adeena karasick, re: Kabbalah In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Through all five of my books traces of Kabbalistic thinking the host/ghost behind most all its machinations. Particularly ways in which Kabbalah is concerned with text as "a continuum of letters", a network of echoes, traces; displaced in a palimpsestic process of rupture, supplementation and dis-ease. How it itself is inscribed through slippage, elision, differentiation and undecidability, and carves out a supplemental space that opens possibilities for alternate reading strategies=8A.How it problematizes the metaphysics of the "propre" of logocentrism, linguisticism, phonologism, the demystification or the de-sedimentation of the autonomic hegemony of language=8A I actually did my doctoral dissertation on this -- "Of Poetic Thinking: A 'Pataphysical Investigation of Cixous, Derrida and the Kabbalah. Also, I am so fascinated with how though Kabbalah announces itself as a "metaphysical" discourse, through a deconstructionist or post-colonial reading praxis, the "meta" (beyond) becomes an intervening space, a place of syncretism, juxtaposition and integration=8A So, though it's mostly acknowledged as a "mystical" or "metaphysical", not as an onto-theologically insulated discourse validated by transcendency, but as that without specific meaning and heterogenous to all hermeneutic totalization. Showing how these two seemingly oppositionary discourses actually infold into each other, caress each other, speak to each other=8A.. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:45:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Zero Star Hotel by Anselm Berrigan, new from Edge Books In-Reply-To: <91.22a6c6aa.2aa8b46d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Good work Rod! It's a wonderful book and a big, huge quantum leap for Anselm Berrigan, whose previous work I have also enjoyed, but this book is really something different, it gives you the passionate can't-put-it-down experience of reading a great novel, and technically it's so assured you don't even notice how he, Anselm, is producing all his effects. The hero of "Zero Star Hotel" goes on a mythic quest; the story's told very simply, with lots of gritty detail and an attention to surfaces and realities that grabs your interest and won't let go. I can't speak highly enough about "Zero Star Hotel" but in the words of Paula Abdul, Anselm, you have raised the bar for all of us, you're my American idol now. >Announcing Publication of > >Zero Star Hotel > >by Anselm Berrigan > >101 pgs, 7 x 10, isbn 189031111, cover by Emilie Clark > >regularly $14, order for $12 plus free shipping til Oct 1. > >Also, available again, Berrigan's Integrity & Dramatic Life > >64 pgs, 6 x 9, ISBN 1-890311-05-7, regularly $10, > >order for $8 til Oct 1. > >When ordering Zero Star Hotel you may order any of the following Edge Books, >also postpaid, at these sale prices: > >The Sense Record & other poems, Jennifer Moxley, $10 (regularly $12.50). >Dovecote, by Heather Fuller, $8 (regularly $10) >Comp., by Kevin Davies, $10 (regularly $12.50) >Ace, by Tom Raworth, $8 (regularly $10) >Sight, by Lyn Hejinian and Leslie Scalapino, $10 (regularly $12) >Aerial 9: Bruce Andrews, $11, (regularly $15) >Marijuana Softdrink, Buck Downs, $9 (regularly $11) >Errata 5uite, by Joan Retallack, $10 (regularly $12) >perhaps this is a rescue fantasy, Heather Fuller, $8, (regularly $10) >Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There, Mark Wallace, $7.50 (regularly >$9.50) > >To Order: Send a check to the following address or email aerialedge@aol.com >with your order and address and we will bill you. Thanks for your support of >Edge Books-- our recent titles by Moxley, Fuller, Davies, & Raworth have all >been well received. > >Checks payable to Aerial/Edge, POBox 25642, Washington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:17:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL SEPTEMBER 21ST NOON TO MIDNIGHT The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an all-day celebration of poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring together several generations of world-class, eclectic poets from all across the country to read in a festival atmosphere from Noon until Midnight. Readings will be interspersed with screenings of experimental films inspired by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. Presses and literary magazines will feature works by the participants, and food and alcohol will be available. The St. George Theatre is one of the city¹s forgotten treasures -- a beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a vaudeville house and closed for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival is a benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a not-for-profit. 3 MINUTE WALK FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL Readers for the festival will include: Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret Caples Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey Robert Kelly Noelle Kocot Frank Lima Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson d.a. powell Peter Richards Elena Rivera Matthew Rohrer Mark Schafer David Shapiro Dale Smith Rick Snyder Gerald Stern James Tate Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre Dara Wier Elizabeth Willis John Yau Mathew Zapruder POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, Aufgabe, Both, Cello Entry, Conduit, Fence, Granary Books, Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left Hand Books, Open City, Skanky Possum, Slope, Verse Press, etc. SHORT FILMS IN COLLABORATION WITH POETS RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets including Allen Ginsberg, Frank O¹Hara, Elizabeth Bishop, and others. WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon The first one hundred people get a signed broadside by Tomaz Salamun Poetry readings for children For More info contact Joshua Beckman at joshuabeckman@mindspring.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:39:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: On Being Rejected Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

My experience has most usually been to receive - and/or give - no word one way or the other; the work "just appears."  When I co-edited :that: magazine in the early nineties, I made a concerted effort to answer all enquiries; subsequent editorial efforts - must notably the Oasis Press series, begun in 1994 - have experienced a real decline in both the ability or inclination, at first, to answer everybody, and more recently, to answer anybody.  The idea that in submitting writing for publication, one might expect any sort of response is to presume a level of industry on the part of the publisher that is incommensurate with the ways in which the work is more actually (or not) "put out there."  This has always seemed to me a pretty much "hit-or-miss" situation, and it may be the better for it.  Maybe

the best way to get rejected (or accepted) is simply to step out into wherever and whatever it is that gives one those opportunities.  I will say that it's easier to be published among friends than among strangers, though among strangers are friends of a future of using, and of being used.  Fun.  It's a kind of closed shop in a way, though in other ways, there's always some group of like- or semi-like-minded persons who will take you in.  maybe even, with luck, eventually kick you out.  I mean, is it "really" just about being published?  About "getting the work out there"?  Or is it more about a struggle involving a kind of power, which comes of

the perpetualy intra-group struggle of deciding what will constitute the poetics of the next decade, the next century, the new Millennium, etcetera.  Political circumstances being what they are, I'll tentatively forward the idea that being executed - which might not be as far off as we think - doesn't seem the best way to be rejected.  I prefer being paid off, but there's not enough money around to go around; maybe we could start a poet's economy using rejection slips as chits against future debt?

Stephen

From: Jim Behrle
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: On Being Rejected
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:49:56 -0400
Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected is. Do personal
rejection letters make us feel any better to get rejected, with specific
notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone involved to just get a form
letter?
--Jim Behrle
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Re: mentors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For me it's a question of the acknowledgment of a constellation of writers and the ability that one has/is show/ is pushed into entering into such a community. Everyone who gives me/ shows me/ mentions a writer I'm unfamiliar with is a sort of mentor in my eyes. The kind of constructed narrative of the poetic tradition I've gotten from some teachers/ courses hasn't been as helpful as what I learn reading a single book. This is interesting to me as I gear up for the first meeting of the course I'm teaching on experimental poetics. Originally, the course was going to follow a historic route, but considering that such histories are nullified in a sense by the timelessness of differing poetic spheres--writers working w/ each other's stuff outside of the historic moment--I decided to mix it up and read around rather than through in terms of the time line of the texts. I guess I see the role of a good mentor (is that redundant?) as someone pointing to various doors and maybe giving a little nudge toward them...of course it's always nice to say "get yr hand off my shoulder, i know where I'm going" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: On Being Rejected In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The least objectionable rejection I ever received was the one that informed me that while the editors loved my submission, the journal had run out of funds and was ceasing publication. At 08:49 PM 9/4/2002 -0400, Jim Behrle wrote: >Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected is. Do personal >rejection letters make us feel any better to get rejected, with specific >notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone involved to just get a form >letter? > >--Jim Behrle > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:42:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Upcoming Wordsworth Books Events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 354 5201 SAT 9/7 at 5 PM can we have our ball back? celebrates issue 12.0 with Sara Veglahn, Noah Eli Gordon, Kari Blowers, Jenna Cardinale, Jill Magi, Ani Grigorian and other contributors. SAT 9/21 at 5 PM Poets Steve Malmude + Miles Champion SUN 9/22 at 3 PM BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 with readings by Fanny Howe, Joseph Lease, Everett Hoagland, Jenny Boully, Benjamin Friedlander, Dara Wier and more. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I highly recommend the latest BEST AMERICAN POETRY, edited by Robert Creeley. A terrific, breakthrough line-up: Rae Armantrout, John Ashbery, Amiri Baraka, Charles Bernstein, Anselm Berrigan, Jenny Boully, Tom Clark, Clark Coolidge, Diane di Prima, Elaine Equi, Benjamin Friedlander, Forrest Gander, Peter Gizzi, Michael S. Harper, Everett Hoagland, Fanny Howe, Bill Kushner, Joseph Lease, Timothy Liu, Nathaniel Mackey, Jackson Mac Low, Steve Malmude, Sarah Manguso, Harry Mathews, Duncan McNaughton, Jennifer Moxley, Eileen Myles, Maggie Nelson, Charles North, Alice Notley, George Oppen, Jena Osman, Pam Rehm, Ron Silliman, Dale Smith, Juliana Spahr, Sam Truitt, Jean Valentine, Lewis Warsh, Dara Wier and John Yau, among many others. Definitely worth a look and your $. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:44:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: mentors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jim Behrle asks: I Reply: I believe that no one can teach poetry writing. Not really. There are some craft issues that can be taught . . . amd some aspects of style that can be, should be, thought through. But teachers can do that. There are some tasks that can be worked on (suggesting poets to read . . . suggesting journals, etc), but the art can't be taught. If it could, then wonderful teachers would have only, or mostly, wonderful students. And that just isn't the case. For me, the several mentors I've had were mentors specifically for taking the time to talk to me. For illustrating a way to be. To be with and in the art moment. To take that seriously. For taking the time to talk with this student, this formerly young writer, when they didn't have to. Someone to encourage me while holding my feet in the fire. And now my feet are all burned up in the art . . . I see no reason for killing my mentors. It's they that have helped kill me to myself. Into being myself. And my poetry bears little resemblance to theirs. So I don't know of any pros or cons about mentors. But there are plenty pros and cons of teaching and being taught poetry . . . I believe that you can't teach poetry writing (but it must be learned). I also believe some teachers and students get themselves in horrible art corners by not understanding this. Some teachers think they really can teach it. And many students think the teacher has some secret that will deliver them. That can turn out to be, as they say, a bad scene. -JG ------------- JGallaher "Poetry has to be something more than a conception of the mind. It has to be a revelation of nature. Conceptions are artificial. Perceptions are essential." --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:10:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL In-Reply-To: <20020905151734.4117.qmail@web14811.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL > >SEPTEMBER 21ST > >NOON TO MIDNIGHT > > >The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an >all-day celebration of > >poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring >together several > >generations of world-class, eclectic poets from all >across the country to > >read in a festival atmosphere from Noon until >Midnight. > > > >Readings will be interspersed with screenings of >experimental films inspired > >by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. >Presses and literary > >magazines will feature works by the participants, and >food and alcohol will > >be available. > > >The St. George Theatre is one of the city=BCs forgotten >treasures -- a Please. What city? > >beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a >vaudeville house and closed > >for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George >Poetry Festival is a > >benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a >not-for-profit. > > > >3 MINUTE WALK > >FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL > > > >Readers for the festival will include: > > > > > > > >Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret >Caples > >Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey > >Robert Kelly Noelle Kocot Frank Lima > >Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson d.a. powell > >Peter Richards Elena Rivera Matthew >Rohrer > >Mark Schafer David Shapiro Dale Smith > >Rick Snyder Gerald Stern James Tate > >Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre Dara Wier > >Elizabeth Willis John Yau Mathew >Zapruder > > > > > > >POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, Aufgabe, Both, >Cello Entry, Conduit, > >Fence, Granary Books, Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left >Hand Books, Open City, > >Skanky Possum, Slope, Verse Press, etc. > > > >SHORT FILMS IN COLLABORATION WITH POETS > > > >RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets including >Allen Ginsberg, Frank > >O=BCHara, Elizabeth Bishop, and others. > > > >WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island > > > >READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon > > > >The first one hundred people get a signed broadside by >Tomaz Salamun > > > >Poetry readings for children > > > >For More info contact Joshua Beckman at >joshuabeckman@mindspring.com > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >http://finance.yahoo.com -- George Bowering Couldnt hit the slider. =46ax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:23:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <001201c24ee4$a4fc3fa0$7e96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >You also adore Randolph Scott, true? How do you feel about Captain Scott of >theAntarctic? How, about Sir Walter Scott? > --"Scottie" Bromige. I am nuts about all you Scotts. Except the ones that have Scott as a first name. When are you coming up here? havent you got yet another grandkid on the way? -- George Bowering Couldnt hit the slider. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:51:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I highly recommend the latest BEST AMERICAN POETRY, edited by Robert > Creeley. A terrific, breakthrough line-up: Rae Armantrout, John Ashbery, > Amiri Baraka, Charles Bernstein, Anselm Berrigan, Jenny Boully, Tom Clark, > Clark Coolidge, Diane di Prima, Elaine Equi, Benjamin Friedlander, Forrest > Gander, Peter Gizzi, Michael S. Harper, Everett Hoagland, Fanny Howe, Bill > Kushner, Joseph Lease, Timothy Liu, Nathaniel Mackey, Jackson Mac Low, Steve > Malmude, Sarah Manguso, Harry Mathews, Duncan McNaughton, Jennifer Moxley, > Eileen Myles, Maggie Nelson, Charles North, Alice Notley, George Oppen, Jena > Osman, Pam Rehm, Ron Silliman, Dale Smith, Juliana Spahr, Sam Truitt, Jean > Valentine, Lewis Warsh, Dara Wier and John Yau, among many others. > Definitely worth a look and your $. > > --Jim Behrle But language poetry is not aca-- ac,ac, , , uh, arkor . . . acadomical! --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:01:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Upcoming Wordsworth Books Events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I shouldn't have sent my other post for the day so fast because I did want to say that I think it fine that language poets are getting some bigtime exposure--for poetry, at least (albeit not for the first time). It'll be interesting to read the condemnations of the series for getting up to 1980. Hey, I just thought of one great virtue of the two-a-day rule: now I don't have to immediately defend the above. And by tomorrow everyone will have forgotten it since the thread will by then have been twisted aside into various joke-exchanges and others' pop-offs. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: Upcoming Wordsworth Books Events > Wordsworth Books > 30 Brattle St. > Cambridge, MA 02138 > (617) 354 5201 > > SAT 9/7 at 5 PM > can we have our ball back? celebrates issue 12.0 > with Sara Veglahn, Noah Eli Gordon, Kari Blowers, Jenna Cardinale, Jill > Magi, Ani Grigorian and other contributors. > > > SAT 9/21 at 5 PM > Poets Steve Malmude + Miles Champion > > > SUN 9/22 at 3 PM > BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 > with readings by Fanny Howe, Joseph Lease, Everett Hoagland, > Jenny Boully, Benjamin Friedlander, Dara Wier and more. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:10:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: speaking of previews... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't seen Loren's work for a couple/few years now (since he sojourned in AZ), but he's a terrific writer. thanks for the alert Jordan. Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jordan Davis > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 5:23 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: speaking of previews... > > > SPD (www.spdbooks.org) appears to still have inventory for The Hat 3 > (Winter 99-00), which is one of the few places you can find a solid block > of work by Loren Goodman, aside from Buffalo's own Deluxe Rubber Chicken. > > Thass all I gonna say about that, > Jordan > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:28:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: hui neng In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan is this derived from Platform Sutra? anything else you can say about it? thanks Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:10 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: hui neng > > > hui neng > > > too many things clutter the scene > the scene exfoliates on each and every thing > every thing moves from wounded cylinders > every thing moves to healed cylinders > some things are called retaining worlds > worlds and things are filled with churning waters > waters move everywhere > there is nothing to stop the waters > the waters go in every direction > on and in the objects, the waters going and moving > only the waters seeing the waters > > too many things clutter the scene > exfoliates on each and every thing > moves from wounded cylinders > to healed some are called retaining worlds > filled with churning waters > move everywhere > there is nothing stop go in direction > objects, going moving > only seeing > > sacred tree > propose, take along > book, present, true, real, root > nothingness, not > trees, plant > > bright > mirror, speculum, round, rice-cake offering > light > not, error, mistake > platform, stage, rostrum > > book, present, true, real, root > to come, arrive at > nothingness, not > one, equal, the first > matter, substance, being, creature, object > > where, expressing doubt, what, which > to dwell, live, place, position, manage > provoke, attract > dust, trash, garbage > dust > > > only > seeing the > sacred > tree > > propose, > take > along > > book, > present, > true, > real, book, > root > present, > nothingness, > not > > trees, > plant > > bright > mirror, > speculum, > > round, > rice-cake mirror, > offering > speculum, > > light > not, > error, > mistake > > platform, > stage, > rostrum > > come, > arrive > at > > one, > equal, > > first > matter, > substance, > being, > creature, matter, > > object > substance, > where, > expressing > doubt, > > what, where, > which > expressing > dwell, > live, to > place, dwell, > position, live, > manage > place, > provoke, > attract > > dust, > trash, > garbage > > dust > > > === > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:58:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How's about Little Jimmy Scott? Scottsch Just Fine. Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >You also adore Randolph Scott, true? How do you feel about Captain Scott of > >theAntarctic? How, about Sir Walter Scott? > > --"Scottie" Bromige. > > I am nuts about all you Scotts. Except the ones that have Scott as a > first name. When are you coming up here? havent you got yet another > grandkid on the way? > -- > George Bowering > Couldnt hit the slider. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:44:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/02 5:51:16 PM, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: << But language poetry is not aca-- ac,ac, , , uh, arkor . . . acadomical! --Bob G. >> Stop stealing my jokes. Language poetry is the most academic (if that's what we mean) poetry since Eliot and Pound. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: hui neng In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The second part is a crude translation of Hui Neng's reply to the master - the first part was created otherwise. So it was derived from the Platform Sutra, yes. The second part was done the way I usually work (with Ellen Zweig) on translation; I used two dictionaries (one organized by Pinyin, the other by radical - both have old-style characters), as well as Jquick Japanese software (used radical entery) and Wenlin Chinese software (used stroke and frequency entry). But I left it in the raw state; there are many good translations about of course. The first part is a rough description of a recent 3d animation I did in Blender; it's the most complex animation I've done so far - about two and a half hours rendering for 400 frames. The animation uses a moving water texture and keeps track of around 1200 shaped particles moving in non- gravitational trajectories; there's no "up" in the space. It has to do with the creation materials I've worked with. The second paragraph went through an elimination script that removed duplicate words. The whole seemed to me 'about' mirroring and evanescence; the particles are dust, cutter, nuisance, populations, and at least for me, the anima- tion ties in with the Platform Sutra. - Alan On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > Alan > > is this derived from Platform Sutra? > > anything else you can say about it? > > thanks > > Tenney > > mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net > mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu > http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn > > POG: > mailto:pog@gopog.org > http://www.gopog.org > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim > > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:10 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: hui neng > > > > > > hui neng > > > > > > too many things clutter the scene > > the scene exfoliates on each and every thing > > every thing moves from wounded cylinders > > every thing moves to healed cylinders > > some things are called retaining worlds > > worlds and things are filled with churning waters > > waters move everywhere > > there is nothing to stop the waters > > the waters go in every direction > > on and in the objects, the waters going and moving > > only the waters seeing the waters > > > > too many things clutter the scene > > exfoliates on each and every thing > > moves from wounded cylinders > > to healed some are called retaining worlds > > filled with churning waters > > move everywhere > > there is nothing stop go in direction > > objects, going moving > > only seeing > > > > sacred tree > > propose, take along > > book, present, true, real, root > > nothingness, not > > trees, plant > > > > bright > > mirror, speculum, round, rice-cake offering > > light > > not, error, mistake > > platform, stage, rostrum > > > > book, present, true, real, root > > to come, arrive at > > nothingness, not > > one, equal, the first > > matter, substance, being, creature, object > > > > where, expressing doubt, what, which > > to dwell, live, place, position, manage > > provoke, attract > > dust, trash, garbage > > dust > > > > > > only > > seeing the > > sacred > > tree > > > > propose, > > take > > along > > > > book, > > present, > > true, > > real, book, > > root > > present, > > nothingness, > > not > > > > trees, > > plant > > > > bright > > mirror, > > speculum, > > > > round, > > rice-cake mirror, > > offering > > speculum, > > > > light > > not, > > error, > > mistake > > > > platform, > > stage, > > rostrum > > > > come, > > arrive > > at > > > > one, > > equal, > > > > first > > matter, > > substance, > > being, > > creature, matter, > > > > object > > substance, > > where, > > expressing > > doubt, > > > > what, where, > > which > > expressing > > dwell, > > live, to > > place, dwell, > > position, live, > > manage > > place, > > provoke, > > attract > > > > dust, > > trash, > > garbage > > > > dust > > > > > > === > > > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:43:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Query About James (William, that is) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm gradually rereading James' The Variety of Religious Experience (though my first read was as a book on the nightstand, as his sober prose had an uncanny ability to put me to sleep). I have a query about James, which it occurred to me that some here may be able to help with. It's simply this: is James a theist when he writes the Variety? Maybe he answers this at the end. I have always thought he was agnostic, but I've encountered passages which suggest that James subscribed more to religion, any religion, is a good thing school, rather being truly skeptical. Of course, the whole thrust of his argument may be that the names and, more radically, intellectuallized arguments about theology, have little or nothing to do with actual religious experience. In some sense, he would say (and perhaps this is Rorty) that people are just swopping names and labels on something that is a verifiable human disposition. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia's Toes Fire into Orioles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A last question of Homeric mechanism, of giant epataphysique, reads the riot act, or Baudelaire, to your horses in Boissonade, O sources of puerile diagram!! thorny, fond, and unverifiable (the former established the basis for these speeches), this translation packages phonetic blackmail ## according to Vercingetorix's unhappy end _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:43:45 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: Koch's final interview :To W. Austin In-Reply-To: <9e.2b939731.2a9cf683@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear William Austin, I backchannelled you with this question but you probably thought I was a virus - Where can I find the interview that this is extracted from ... Thanks, Pam Brown --- Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > A snippet: > > "When I wrote "Fresh Air," I certainly resented the > fact that the poets of my > age I thought were writing the best poetry were not > being published as much > as they should have been. But now that I'm a mature > person--or postmature > person--I see that in the poetry business, the > people who make reputations > and give awards and so on, they seem to be the same > strong people and weak > people and limited people and nice people and young > people that there are > everyplace else. I mean look at the government. > It's even a little > surprising that what's good is ever recognized at > all--I mean given the > general mush of things. Valery said, perhaps a > little self-satisfiedly, > "It's not true that people don't like poetry. A lot > of people like poetry, > but it's only for a very few people that poetry's a > necessity." > > Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com >> ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:49:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia's Dove is the Page Number Above Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed incomplete humor page numbers one chooses the present case ____________________________ the example above has the sonnet structure onyx? as ancestors Un singe de beaute est un jouet pour l'hiver _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:18:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Koch's final interview :To W. Austin In-Reply-To: <20020906004345.41812.qmail@web12004.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I didn't see the original William Austin post, but the Koch interview, which is marvelous, can be found in the lastest issue of Poets & Writers. Koch also says this, which I found quite interesting: "There are lots of poets who have the courage to look into the abyss, but there are very few who have the courage to look happiness in the face and write about it, which is what I wanted to be able to do." On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, [iso-8859-1] Pam Brown wrote: > Dear William Austin, > I backchannelled you with this question but you > probably thought I was a virus - > Where can I find the interview that this is extracted > from ... > Thanks, > Pam Brown > --- Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > A snippet: > > > > "When I wrote "Fresh Air," I certainly resented the > > fact that the poets of my > > age I thought were writing the best poetry were not > > being published as much > > as they should have been. But now that I'm a mature > > person--or postmature > > person--I see that in the poetry business, the > > people who make reputations > > and give awards and so on, they seem to be the same > > strong people and weak > > people and limited people and nice people and young > > people that there are > > everyplace else. I mean look at the government. > > It's even a little > > surprising that what's good is ever recognized at > > all--I mean given the > > general mush of things. Valery said, perhaps a > > little self-satisfiedly, > > "It's not true that people don't like poetry. A lot > > of people like poetry, > > but it's only for a very few people that poetry's a > > necessity." > > > > Best, Bill > > > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > > KojaPress.com > > Amazon.com > > BarnesandNoble.com >> > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS > - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:37:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 In-Reply-To: <000b01c2551e$0f0bb300$b10bfea9@j1c1k6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Either I can't count or Bob is using some definition of "dominant" that I do not understand -- unless the implication is that Language poetry is somehow dominating the likes of Oppen, Baraka, Clark, DiPrima and so on and so on and scooby dobbie doobie At 04:51 PM 9/5/2002 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote: > > I highly recommend the latest BEST AMERICAN POETRY, edited by Robert > > Creeley. A terrific, breakthrough line-up: Rae Armantrout, John Ashbery, > > Amiri Baraka, Charles Bernstein, Anselm Berrigan, Jenny Boully, Tom Clark, > > Clark Coolidge, Diane di Prima, Elaine Equi, Benjamin Friedlander, Forrest > > Gander, Peter Gizzi, Michael S. Harper, Everett Hoagland, Fanny Howe, Bill > > Kushner, Joseph Lease, Timothy Liu, Nathaniel Mackey, Jackson Mac Low, >Steve > > Malmude, Sarah Manguso, Harry Mathews, Duncan McNaughton, Jennifer Moxley, > > Eileen Myles, Maggie Nelson, Charles North, Alice Notley, George Oppen, >Jena > > Osman, Pam Rehm, Ron Silliman, Dale Smith, Juliana Spahr, Sam Truitt, Jean > > Valentine, Lewis Warsh, Dara Wier and John Yau, among many others. > > Definitely worth a look and your $. > > > > --Jim Behrle > >But language poetry is not aca-- ac,ac, , , uh, arkor . . . acadomical! > >--Bob G. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:17:26 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: Koch's final interview :To W. Austin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Steven, I've located it online. All the best, Pam --- Steven Shoemaker wrote: > I didn't see the original William Austin post, but > the Koch interview, > which is marvelous, can be found in the lastest > issue of Poets & Writers. > Koch also says this, which I found quite > interesting: "There are lots of > poets who have the courage to look into the abyss, > but there are very few > who have the courage to look happiness in the face > and write about it, > which is what I wanted to be able to do." > > On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, [iso-8859-1] Pam Brown wrote: > > > Dear William Austin, > > I backchannelled you with this question but you > > probably thought I was a virus - > > Where can I find the interview that this is > extracted > > from ... > > Thanks, > > Pam Brown > > --- Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > A snippet: > > > > > > "When I wrote "Fresh Air," I certainly resented > the > > > fact that the poets of my > > > age I thought were writing the best poetry were > not > > > being published as much > > > as they should have been. But now that I'm a > mature > > > person--or postmature > > > person--I see that in the poetry business, the > > > people who make reputations > > > and give awards and so on, they seem to be the > same > > > strong people and weak > > > people and limited people and nice people and > young > > > people that there are > > > everyplace else. I mean look at the government. > > > It's even a little > > > surprising that what's good is ever recognized > at > > > all--I mean given the > > > general mush of things. Valery said, perhaps a > > > little self-satisfiedly, > > > "It's not true that people don't like poetry. A > lot > > > of people like poetry, > > > but it's only for a very few people that > poetry's a > > > necessity." > > > > > > Best, Bill > > > > > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > > > KojaPress.com > > > Amazon.com > > > BarnesandNoble.com >> > > > > ===== > > Web site/P.Brown - > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for > SMS > > - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS > > ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Explicit Malfunction: Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Explicit Malfunction: The Value of the Real Thing p.189 of Tuning by David Antin answered by Beyond the Wall p.82 of Ordeal by Hunger, The Story of the Donner Party by George R. Stewart Discontinuous Syntax (First Section).. Paintings Speak, Words are Chemical, and Hiwaymen Abound----->All "english" is "other"... Nonhead X Hyperbaton and the Use of Violence as an Instructive Language-Inflected Metaphor calls slowly from the tourniquet marsh (hint: all bound up-->what? a wound--->inscription's flesh( overt--->"Its just some person, not a decentered packager of wave-forms playing off the (un)usual categories to produce multiple false and real selves, [obverse] once the rock is jettisoned it will fall where it may." As William Burroughs once wrote, "This is a War universe..")which might be countered effectively by Edward Dahlberg's "Would you grave your daughter's maidenhead beneath a grum stone?" This is the essential conflict. Systems do not truly meld through the exchange of particles. All expression is severed. Meaning is oblique, thus the study of the Pharmakon. (the tender eaglets, synaptikons). Negentropy prevails as an immanence born of a hopeful perception. Time elongates. The field is always strident to the sensitives who pursue knowledge of the Umwelt. Indwelling. No noise-stone left unturned. Pavonine royalty and ostentation rumble loosely along with the woolen sufis and sackwearers of language, nonconfigurational or otherwise. Warlpiri is a "conceptual" noun. World Mind is a struggle. Alienation cannot breed without a perception of separation. What wor(l)ds inhabit.. Second Section: the discontinuous object phrase regards the fact that the intervening X element is the head of a superordinate phrase. It applies to discontinous noun phrases. FAR EASIER TO OVERTHROW (THORN) [XEN HELL 3.5.15] I THINK THAT IT IS MUCH BETTER (WHILE) [XEN OEC 17.6] THEY RAN MUCH FASTER THAN THE HORSES (AWAKENED) [XEN AN 1.5.2] OTHERS MUCH MORE SKILLED THAN ME (BLOWN) [XEN OEC 2.16] MY ARGUMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH STRONGER (WINDS) [DEM 33.29] HE PAID MONEY TO GORGIAS OF LEONTINI (MERGED) [XEN AN 2.6.16] STRIKING HIM ON THE NECK WITH HIS HILTED SWORD (SPOKEN) [IL 16.332] STRUCK HIM ON THE RIGHT THIGH WITH AN ARROW (STRUNG) [IL 11.583] KEEPING HIS DISTANCE TO IMPLORE HER WITH GENTLE WORDS (SANG) [OD 6.146] EXPLICIT ENDING OF 2ND SECTION: PHRASE: The word "shit" or "shishat" in Bokos means "eye". Bokos is a language of the Ron Unit. Final Section: Unrelated Phrases: en hoiois keimeth athlioi kakois 'in-what-do-we-find-ourselves wretched evils' (Phoen 1639) tina dunamin echei 'what power it has' (Pl Laws 643a) ten ton pollon doxan anthropon 'the of-the many opinion man' (Pl Prot 353a) ton ison aitios.. kakon 'for-the equal responsible disasters' (Dem 19.29) Euxenou d' aphikomen pontou pros aktas 'of the Euxine PRT I-arrived sea to the-shores' (Rhes 428) klimakas prosthentes.... pollas prosthentes klimakas 'ladders placing... many placing ladders' (Thuc 3.23.1) toiauta hamartanei hamartemata '(with-)such offends offences' (Lys 31.32) ****************************************************************VxxZZZ-+++ null-head-finis and a short film-strip: http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/luxoxu.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:13:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Koch's final interview :To W. Austin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to set the record straight, I did answer Pam Brown's inquiry re: the source of the Koch interview way back on Aug. 27. I do not ignore people, usually. She must have deleted me without opening my reply, then wondered why I never replied. Ha Ha! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gwyn, Jim - I deal with rejection like a sour puss but also both as something to avoid and an opportunity to have a little fun. I avoid because I won't submit anywhere unless I'm asked. It feels better that way. If no one asks, I become a poor po-citizen I guess. Or maybe it makes me a good one. I also avoid because in 1998 or 1999 after some encouragement from random literarily (sp?) inclined people, I started sending my poems to publishers. What was I thinking? I expected that with 30 submissions I would receive 30 rejections, and anything better was a miracle. My first submission was a "success," but that was for a "masters class" at the 92nd St Y in New York City. After that, laziness brought out the lesser of the five me's of me and so I sent out something like 8 submissions instead of the dreamed-of 30. I bought countless journals wherever I traveled trying to find what I imagined would be a good match. The experience was something like combing the personal ads in a very weird way. I found 8 that had poems I liked. I submitted to, well, I'll skip the list of journals. Suffice it to say it would underscore my delusions of grandeur. 8 journals. 5 rejections. 3 without any response at all. I hung each of those rejection slips on a wall, on a costume I wore for Halloween years ago. It sits there over my computer where I write every day. My opportunity for fun, and a reminder of the way things are. It also really toughened my gut to flat-out rejection. Though my gut was toughened, I've only stuck my neck out twice more, maybe three or four, maybe. I don't know. Not much, no concerted effort like that. Those notes also hang from the costume. Any news ones I receive will be added. Submitting seems not to ever work to well when I haven't been asked to send anything. So I don't really bother any more unless I'm asked. The letters sometimes suck. One small journal simply wrote "Sorry to say no." I think the editor was suffering under an ink shortage. Another, absolutely nothing but a 2.5"x8.5" slip with an address and two printed sentences. Nothing handwritten at all. It sure beat the deafening no-response silences of the other three, however. Pleasantly, the one particular Big Famous Journal sent me one of those encouragement rejections. You know the ones, the ones with editorial suggestions and a request for a resubmission at a specified later date. That was very positive for me, though I never bothered to resubmit. I was quite skeptical of it. I might stick my neck out again next year. Maybe. I did just plop a couple of books in the mail this week, actually, so I guess that counts. I am certain of "no" but tried anyway. Rejections are good if you want rejections. If you don't want rejections then they're not good. I think I very much wanted to "earn" my first rejections, to give myself a dose of reality and buy that $1 ticket for the $29 Poetry Lotto, with a likelihood of "winning" much lower than winning the Pick Six for $20 mil. I wanted to lose. I wanted to decorate that costume, which was a much needed act of humility for me. It would be nice to receive personal notes, but isn't composing them unrealistic for most editors? I believe in correspondence to the point where I'd be ashamed for not responding to any and every sort of personal note. I realize that my ethic (or fixation) is a bit unusual. 3 of 8 journals don't respond, and that is not just true of journals. That's true of the poetry population as a whole. 3 of 8 make it unrealistic because they don't have the time. Or something. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:49:56 -0400 From: Jim Behrle Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected is. Do personal rejection letters make us feel any better to get rejected, with specific notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone involved to just get a form letter? --Jim Behrle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:40:49 -0400 From: Gwyn McVay Dear Jim, I find rejection notices much more palatable in the first case, with a little note, even if only an adjective with exclamation point attached: "Strong!" [....] Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:00:43 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: Koch's final interview :To W. Austin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry Bill, You're probably right. Anyway, thanks for the information. I have the interview now. Cheerio from Pam --- Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > Just to set the record straight, I did answer Pam > Brown's inquiry re: the > source of the Koch interview way back on Aug. 27. I > do not ignore people, > usually. She must have deleted me without opening > my reply, then wondered > why I never replied. Ha Ha! Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: pelican waters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII pelican waters pelican truth, bill and eye wrapped around smoothed water-worlding, moving through moving What white lozenge, what orange pill, moves through this Universe, Pelican cried. "It is darker and darker - one can sense the percolations, the billows come from nowhere." Suddenly, an explosion: an element adds itself, irrevocably, to the particle-field. Darkness descends as light is suffocated by the proliferation of forms.triad immensity just now, tending towards triple-orthogonal-mirror-corner, always reflecting directly back to the beholding. "Therefore," she said, "everything is kept out of it, out of the central incubator." there is no incubator, no centrality, no manifolds, no fields, what is so empty about this, the sheerness of cliffs, angular cutting-into the semblance of fields, fields are representations, breaths. Mining or minding the darkness, the extinguishing of light. henry, there's a beam there. you saw it just a minute ago, star-field of some sort. the gate we've been looking for. it doesn't go anywhere, there's no metric, you can't see anything. around or over or under the beam, across it, suffocation's almost complete. "She can imagine the flickering of screens - silk, not celluloid - to similar effect. As I'm writing this, the planet appears. of which there's none anywhere, no skies, no coursing waters. pelican-eye long since darkened by repetition, scenario's just about gone - "I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING NOW." Thu Sep 5 21:00:28 EDT 2002 === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:59:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George, I duppose that your inquiry is spurred by your wellknown fear of surprises. Affter all, I F YOU ARE TO BE SHOT OUT OF A CANNON IN ORDER TO ATTAIN SAINTHOOD, YOU OUGHT TO BE WARNED, EH? well, I believe its somewhere like Staten Island. ut check with the cabbie first. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:03 PM Subject: Re: FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL >FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL > >SEPTEMBER 21ST > >NOON TO MIDNIGHT > > >The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an >all-day celebration of > >poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring >together several > >generations of world-class, eclectic poets from all >across the country to > >read in a festival atmosphere from Noon until >Midnight. > > > >Readings will be interspersed with screenings of >experimental films inspired > >by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. >Presses and literary > >magazines will feature works by the participants, and >food and alcohol will > >be available. > > >The St. George Theatre is one of the city¼s forgotten >treasures -- a Please. What city? > >beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a >vaudeville house and closed > >for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George >Poetry Festival is a > >benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a >not-for-profit. > > > >3 MINUTE WALK > >FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL > > > >Readers for the festival will include: > > > > > > > >Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret >Caples > >Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey > >Robert Kelly Noelle Kocot Frank Lima > >Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson d.a. powell > >Peter Richards Elena Rivera Matthew >Rohrer > >Mark Schafer David Shapiro Dale Smith > >Rick Snyder Gerald Stern James Tate > >Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre Dara Wier > >Elizabeth Willis John Yau Mathew >Zapruder > > > > > > >POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, Aufgabe, Both, >Cello Entry, Conduit, > >Fence, Granary Books, Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left >Hand Books, Open City, > >Skanky Possum, Slope, Verse Press, etc. > > > >SHORT FILMS IN COLLABORATION WITH POETS > > > >RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets including >Allen Ginsberg, Frank > >O¼Hara, Elizabeth Bishop, and others. > > > >WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island > > > >READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon > > > >The first one hundred people get a signed broadside by >Tomaz Salamun > > > >Poetry readings for children > > > >For More info contact Joshua Beckman at >joshuabeckman@mindspring.com > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >http://finance.yahoo.com -- George Bowering Couldnt hit the slider. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 02:41:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Breakthrough? I thought this was reserved for something relatively new & innovative... Mikhail Magazinnik In a message dated 9/5/2002 4:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I highly recommend the latest BEST AMERICAN POETRY, edited by Robert > Creeley. A terrific, breakthrough line-up: Rae Armantrout, John Ashbery, > Amiri Baraka, Charles Bernstein, Anselm Berrigan, Jenny Boully, Tom Clark, > Clark Coolidge, Diane di Prima, Elaine Equi, Benjamin Friedlander, Forrest > Gander, Peter Gizzi, Michael S. Harper, Everett Hoagland, Fanny Howe, Bill > Kushner, Joseph Lease, Timothy Liu, Nathaniel Mackey, Jackson Mac Low, > Steve > Malmude, Sarah Manguso, Harry Mathews, Duncan McNaughton, Jennifer Moxley, > Eileen Myles, Maggie Nelson, Charles North, Alice Notley, George Oppen, > Jena > Osman, Pam Rehm, Ron Silliman, Dale Smith, Juliana Spahr, Sam Truitt, Jean > Valentine, Lewis Warsh, Dara Wier and John Yau, among many others. > Definitely worth a look and your $. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:53:21 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: On Being Rejected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think I've said this before, but I liked Clayton Eshelman's rejection letters more than most others. Seriously---at times he was right on; he would judge me by what he thought (often correctly) I was trying to do, rather than say the "masters" he often invokes for himself. I thought Hoover and Chernoff did this/ do this, to some extent as well. Regardless of what others say of CE, I thought this was admirable---even if at times he was also off, it was still preferable to others who, whether they accept or reject, you (I) don't really feel it (it becomes kinda meaningless....). Chris Arielle Greenberg wrote: > I like a little note. It doesn't have to be > specific--in fact, sometimes when an editor is too > praising of a poem, my reaction is: "then why didn't > you take it?" Just a simple "these almost worked, > please try us again," if the editor in fact wants you > to try again, will do. If they just aren't interested > at all, no note is fine. > > Arielle > > --- Jim Behrle > wrote: > > Also, I'm curious what the best way to get rejected > > is. Do personal > > rejection letters make us feel any better to get > > rejected, with specific > > notes to poems, or is it easier for everyone > > involved to just get a form > > letter? > > > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.msn.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:20:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Either I can't count or Bob is using some definition of "dominant" that I > do not understand -- unless the implication is that Language poetry is > somehow dominating the likes of Oppen, Baraka, Clark, DiPrima and so on and > so on and scooby dobbie doobie My simple point is that now a very mainstream series of books has paid homage to a great many language poets and poets like Ashbery more related to language poets than to Iowa poets. This, to me, is further evidence that language poetry is in college English departments what post-Einsteinian physics is in college physics departments: considered cutting edge and therefore highly respected even if less taught than conventional poetry and physics. Those who want an idea of SOME of the many kinds of poetry such anthologies regularly ignore might visit SpiderTangle at http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle/the_book/ --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:02:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 In-Reply-To: <004801c2558f$06ad4c20$0d1bfea9@j1c1k6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { My simple point is that now a very mainstream series of books has paid { homage to a great many language poets and poets like Ashbery more related to { language poets than to Iowa poets. I'd be surprised if there are more than two annual issues of this anthology that Ashbery has *not* been in. Hal "is there enough silence here for a glass of water" --David Antin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 22:08:34 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: A Healthy Diet of Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A well meaning relative sent me this: Study Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the Heart Thu Sep 5, 5:42 PM ET By Charnicia E. Huggins NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, according to recent study findings. "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail interview. "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular breathing," they added. The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a 15-minute period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were measured again, also for 15 minutes. After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of Cardiology. No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday conversation, the researchers noted. In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like recitation of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow and deeper breathing." SOURCE: International Journal of Cardiology 2002;84:77-88. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:10:02 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: rejections or the absence of In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gwyn, Jim - > 3 of 8 > journals don't respond, and that is not just true of > journals. That's true > of the poetry population as a whole. 3 of 8 make it > unrealistic because > they don't have the time. Or something. Patrick (assuming you were talking to all of us ... and that included me..) 3 out of 8 journals may not have responded because -- their ed. assistant got sick, --they are not very organized and lost your submission (it's now under a heap of 'People' magazines), -- there was no address on the poems and they got separated from the cover letter (the editor has them on his bedside table and hopes you'll resubmit), -- the poems are the worst they ever got and they've laminated them and hung them in their office for dart pratice, -- they only take submissions from people they know, -- they only take submissions from people who inlcude a 100$ check, -- they did send them back but your SASE did not have enough postage so it got sent back and thrown away --some of the above may not be serious. Personally, I *always* send a reminder (including SASE) after 3 months. Out of respect for myself and my poems. I usually get a response. After another four weeks I send a post card telling them I'll offer the poems elsewhere. Barbara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 23:02:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Alan and His Brown Shirts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking again, but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, either in jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy called Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. . Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection Glass overthrow. I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows up quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to Jeff that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would still allow Jeff his fantasy. I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same time.. The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with Alan's consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back to their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and quite threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, now the bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts to give voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this happen? Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on people who protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy of language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so well. Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't have said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run his factory on this list for another eight years. Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to some of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of months. If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. I'm sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, I will return to more pressing matters. Jesse Jess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:54:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: <004801c2558f$06ad4c20$0d1bfea9@j1c1k6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob Grumman writes: I Reply: I never went to Iowa, so I can't say for certain what all Iowa poets are like, but I do know some Iowa poets, and those Iowa poets write poems much more like Ashbery's than like what some might consider an "Iowa Poem" to be. In fact, there seems to be a great deal of interesting poets and work coming from places many consider The Land of the Enemy. Which, of course, brings us back to the question of what the avant garde is then, when so many poets use the techniques of what the avant garde was. And what of the poor Deriere Garde? Best, JG ------------ JGallaher The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:38:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Classical Transliterations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

11. And he heard a buzz in his head that he gave her name to, and so turned to see if it had an actual correspondence.

From: Safdie Joseph
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Classical Transliterations
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:07:49 -0700
Top Ten Reasons Orpheus Looked Back
10. He wanted to blindly embrace her because love is blind
9. He was worried about her
8. He thought she wasn't really there
7. He secretly hated her
6. He secretly hated all women
5. He had fallen in love with Persephone
4. He thought he'd heard someone else wanting to
congratulate him for a successful poetry reading
3. He knew paganism had to be overtaken by Christianity
2. The disobeying self = the self
1. He wanted to know *why* he shouldn't look back . . .
Joe Safdie


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========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:41:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: character assassination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "jesse glass" To: Sent: 07 September 2002 07:02 Subject: Alan and His Brown Shirts | The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with Alan's | consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, I don't believe that People do threaten to bash each other, yes; but I don't know anyone less likely to support such a thing than Alan Sondheim I admit I know nothing about the posting against you that you are speaking of, but I am against *all slander and libel - i.e. including those directed at you - and I find *your reference to Hitler and brownshirts applied to Alan extremely offensive Ignorant too. From what little I know of the brownshirts, what you are talking about, if true, would be nowhere in the same league. It sounds like small school playground stuff. It all sounds that way. Grow up, please. As to threats in the archive, if you have anything concrete then I think you should take it up with the listowner. What you assert would be against list rules and possibly illegal In my experience, calls for people to see for themselves the evidence in the archives, when there is however no specific quotation and / or citation, turn out to be wild goose chases, not showing what it is claimed they show L ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia lactans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Over the refuge of dizzy millions Over the television our spies tell are dead Over blinking sevens up a damned daisy Over the icy rain of inexcusable contractility Over the death certificate sticking from his fly Over the time machine gasping for breath Over the legal mind in front of my fireplace Over the hypodermic gone seventeen hours large Over paint and broken storm windows Over the sea as a cheap closing act Over emergency rooms filled with ecstatic flags Over a vague patch of admission Over the bone-white Flamenco machine Over immortal bargains in king-sized doses Over the rasp of perpendicular blackouts Over an ever-growing open standard Over "a wolf's expression dashed on the ocean's knee" Over the whole array of a footnote's lingerie Over an old friend of the night's family Over young cherry trees secured against hares Over the inky tarnish of wet meat sub-routed and assertive Over untrue wounds speechless & shut Over lightning toppling Life's inaudible fuck Over the crypt lining her mouth with contrivance Over desuicidal robots who fire pairs of filth Over noctambulism accidentally killing MIDAS cave Over a long syllable equal to two short syllables Over the possibility that dark spots are also stars Over a green of any strength hardly modeled Over a precipice with a vegetable Tchelitchew Virginia, wave! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:01:55 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit two scents-- 1. doesn't ashbery kind of come before the "contemporary" division of poetry into "iowa" and "language" as it were 2. as i'm sure someone else will say, quite a few of the lang pos, as well as writers chronologically between ashbery and the l. poets (like ted berrigan, or notley and tomaz salamun----well, the chronology starts to blur around here) were iowans.... J Gallaher wrote: > Bob Grumman writes: > > paid homage to a great many language poets and poets like Ashbery > more related to language poets than to Iowa poets.> > > I Reply: > > I never went to Iowa, so I can't say for certain what all Iowa poets are > like, but I do know some Iowa poets, and those Iowa poets write > poems much more like Ashbery's than like what some might consider > an "Iowa Poem" to be. In fact, there seems to be a great deal of > interesting poets and work coming from places many consider The > Land of the Enemy. > > Which, of course, brings us back to the question of what the avant > garde is then, when so many poets use the techniques of what the > avant garde was. And what of the poor Deriere Garde? > > Best, > JG > > ------------ > > JGallaher > > The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:11:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John Gallaher, I'm surprised you don't know what an Iowa poem is like. Here's one--from an outsider's point of view. Still I would call it "Iowa School." IOWA SCHOOL O Iowa, Iowa I never went to U. In spite of that I like your rhymes, the way they aren't like Ashbery's. Keep it up, O Iowa; just keep being U, keep filling up the pages of Best American Poetry 2002. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:15:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention that there is an alternate ending now that BAP '02 has actually been printed; it goes something like: Keep it up, O Iowa, just keep being thee; undoubtedly you'll conquer Best American Poetry 2003. > > IOWA SCHOOL > > O Iowa, Iowa > I never went to U. > > In spite of that > I like your rhymes, > > the way they aren't > like Ashbery's. > > Keep it up, O Iowa; > just keep being U, > > keep filling up the pages > of Best American Poetry 2002. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:00:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: A Healthy Diet of Poetry In-Reply-To: <003001c255a6$83f1f700$a42d4ca5@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Folks, This item goes well with the questions about William James' "Varieties of Religious Experience." In this case, the poetic healing would be human rather than divine experience. When my wife was pregnant I would read poems -- rhythmic poems, such as Shakespeare's sonnets -- up against her tummy, and she and the baby would go into a trance-like soothing state. I'm not sure if Iowa, Bepop, or Hallmark would have the same effect. I did not read any T. S. Eliot poems, for fear of a still birth, but O'Hara's "Second Avenue" was a big hit -- or at least a big kick. Now, is this comment appropriate for the list, even though I didn't mention anything about Alan Sondheim? Other note: I remembered another gang of New York School: the Siamese Banana Gang. How could I have forgotten the terror of Yorkville and St. Marks Place? May be inscribed in and never receive a rejection letter from The Great Book of Poesy for the Jewish New Year. Hilton >"Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation >of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin >of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the >University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail >interview. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:22:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Sapientissima Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A vagrant breaks out in beads of occasional congregation frequent manuscript and her neck an ancestral home for such dazzlement, in receipt of contradictory familiars passing through a second edition of this voluptuary good-natured holiday gains no particular hearing taking slices, a full-dress paste lopping off its countrymen lesser lights, lords and women feel the sting of makeshift rounds, shipwrecks are often facts of expensive simplicity these entertainers of the fourth act must be middle-aged before the service can only end through the body Such punishments were adopted by royalty Pyrrhic language a fact of human arrangement debunking of association cultivates exchange magnetic syntax ignorant of the hounds the early lyrics have a certain plausibility your revelatory pledge comments on goatish paradox fall victim to merriment, talk of virtue retrospectively coming out of court with no rewards to do her justice it is said the scene is nearly suffocated, fur afloat adultery purchased your sententious task, so colossal a sense It's the sky all over again, overgrown with space short of memory at first, before coercion ends thus: children could stand opposition to sagacity hierarchy had been due for a quarter of a century also committed to lucrative revolution, onwards the report by no means breaks off, abolition of the public information supplied delegations with close quarters quiescence moderating a grand scale absorption the machine was made to raise funds, supping circles taken as an insurrection, a lucrative farce Correspondence relating to success publicly double heavy questions a further installment of silence some canons allowed placards, fundamental consideration remained least, initiative disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue, conflict sedulously inadequate leatherbound accent, the linchpin of a different slope the watchword is seamless, we used to remember hoardings how could you see a pattern from voice to minx? shortages would follow pictures, frolicking understandings and vice-versa, why on earth are tears billowing? A corpse was doubled to divide its eternal reward lamentable disinheritance compiles the attempt as I turned, whipcord impossible to make satisfied ordinary confirmation resuscitated to get up and dress your coasting verse a thorough compliance roofed-over examination a fortunate choice avoiding cordials and habituations in turn, save us the embodiments of pageantries well within the mark of thralldom, denominate several English lines well-pleased with room to doubt, conclude these points Elopement bred on the wind, assure yourself that with loud pledges of performance materials are overawed enough of these pledges will land you a World's Record no longer entirely without warning, play a game of storm and drying nets over two youths hardly broken that beautiful pale face is my fate, substance scowling at ourselves, Bohemia was a place where the girls got away as soon as possible, many books under her fingers, closing are jarring to some, elements make promises, Klezmorim are long gone, never to return from the courts at Syracuse Contempt biting her lip, document styled the whole placelost cloven eagerness inspired permission, to this day ponderous without any account, conjoined specimens turning bounteous policy redounded to spacious name, at least permanently accommodation a verbal charity, that famous version a bastard treacherously an inkling departed, reminded of submissiveness grant autobiographical reserve, preserve my future conduct omitting modification, firm character that slays them, but you, Heather, you are caught in this cycle foreather, whether you keep swimming right around, or shy away like thunder A daub denying a daub in favor of a daub,civilization rolls on when heart shall be in this lean religion, humiliation would have amours, promises before you part, win a thousand contradictions to pass, no other prodigality keeps so active the efficacy of pining and disrest demanded guests an appeal to unnatural errata sets down animosities swarm for that hunger and proportion, death shades away to the woods I contrived peril, much scribbled for gain maintain a claim until acquiescence is sent back to me you find you are bought with money, scarce daub _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:37:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: mentors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

Prose is the con of being "taught" poetry; mentoring is all about the The of of.  Killing them is a little like shooting yourself in the foot.  On purpose.

From: Jim Behrle
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: mentors
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:29:53 -0400
I'm curious about poetic mentoring. At work on an essay called "Kill Yr.
Mentors" and am interested in the pro's and con's of being "taught" poetry.
--Jim Behrle
_________________________________________________________________
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========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:55:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: The Moving Target Series In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >The Blue Room welcomes >the return of >The Moving Target Series >2331 Mission St. btw 19th and 20th, San Francisco >(415) 515-1210 for tix/ (415) 584-7415 for press >www.blueroomgallery.org > >doors open 7:30pm, show at 8pm, $8-10 sliding scale > >September 11: 911 >Six young men who feel deeply about their country offer a stirring tribute >and testimonial on this most tragic of days. The Blue Room welcomes the >White Ring for a star-spangled extravaganza that will be an inspiration to >some, a warning to others, and a revelation to all. Are they Heroes? Or >just >ordinary, Red-Blooded Americans standing up for their God-given Rights in >these Troubled Times? > >The White Ring met while stationed in Kuwait during the Gulf War in 1990. >Through the common link of music, and a shared message of strength and hope >through politics and melody, they have remained active collaborators since. >They are widely known for their riveting stage seminars which skillfully >blend their own brand of music, testimonials and dramatic representations >of >the problems we face as a "progressive" society today. They have challenged >even the thickest-skinned audiences both domestically and in the Third >World >with their mix of powerful messages. They have been well received in the >Indie Christian rock scene and released one of the earliest examples of >"East Bay I.C." records in 1993 ("The Monkey Song" b/w "Ecumenical >Movement"), but have also enjoyed unprecedented crossover into the >underground circuit of America's more subversive, experimental music >venues. >In 2001, they were named Best Result of Operation Desert Storm by SF Weekly >in their annual "Best of San Francisco" awards issue. Also on the bill is a >special visit from Henley Hornbrook, of the Ground Zero Heroes, a traveling >troupe of troubadours -- culled from the ranks of ordinary folks like You >or >Me -- that have made it their mission to spread the Word in the wake of the >September attacks. These Heroes were not at Ground Zero as such at the time >of the attacks on that fateful day, but they were close enough to get a >whiff of the winds of change that blew over the wreckage, and Moving Target >is proud to have one of them share his message with all of us. > >* * * * * * >The Moving Target Series, San Francisco1s ongoing, roving presentation of >performance, music, film, and movement, returns with a visit to The Blue >Room for the month of September. Since 1999, the series (formerly curated >by >David Hadbawnik with Margaret Tedesco, now with Michael Smoler) has >traveled >to such disparate venues as 848 Community Space, Z Space, The Luggage >Store, >111 Minna Street, New Langton Arts, and The Lab, treating audiences to the >best performance in the Bay Area. Moving Target has featured a wide variety >of artists including The Foundry, Ruth Zaporah, Mads Lynnerup, Remy >Charlip, >Fred Frith, Negativland, Diane di Prima, Michelle Tea, Beth Lisick, and >many >others. > >* * * * * * > >Moving Target >Wednesdays in September >at The Blue Room > >September 18: Bad >the Bay Area1s best poets convene to find out just how bad they can >be...sifting through their own notebooks as well as the annals of >Literature, these poets promise to do their Worst. With Kevin Killian, Bill >Berkson, Beth Lisick, Andrew Felsinger, kari edwards, Norma Cole, Sean >Finney, hosts Michael Smoler and David Hadbawnik, and more "bad" authors >to >come. > >September 25: What I Did Last Summer >rare performances by Blevin Blectum, James Bewley, and Justin Veach ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:56:11 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Rejections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Normally, rejections produce an instantaneous ping/pain of some sort, and then I move on. Possibly, the personal ones, the near-misses, the explanatories of why and how have more ambivalent ripple effects. For a real send-up of the rejection genre, read the opening pages of Sorrentino's Mulligan Stew. My most memorable rejection came over the phone when I was sending my memoir, Living Root, out to agents. One agent had been a senior editor at a publishing house, and when I called after a couple of months, she said, you know some of this work reminds me of Leiris. I said, yes (my heart leaping), his autobiography, Manhood, was something of an influence on me. She then said, well, that's too bad; when we published Leiris, he sold less than 500 copies, so I'll be returning your manuscript. It's really not commerical enough. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: <003501c255b8$309f87e0$196686a5@belzjones1500.local> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have always thought of "stereotypical Iowa poets" (should we say "AWP poets" now instead? but the AWP IS the MLA) as the poets Kenneth Koch derided in some lecture I read somewhere: the narrator is driving down a road lined with corn fields thinking about his troubled marriage when he hits a deer. Reasons to love Ceravolo's work? More troubling to me is the relatively recent embrace in my local local community of the Koch - Lehman etc. "Columbia boys" lineage of NYS School poetry as light verse a la "Stand Up Poetry" (also a local thing). It's a logical conclusion from "last avant garde" but all of a sudden I say New York School and I mean every cheap and easy assignment poem that's ever come down the road lined with corn. As you know, Mr. Collins (UC Riverside with Ron Koertge) blurbed Towle's Collected. Yeah, verily, I have heard BH Fairchild, Collins, and New York School mentioned in the same sentence, "I do this, and I do that" on open-mike night, shouted over the cappuccino machine, etc. I am even more distressed by exercises in workshops, and the way in which they seem to be uniting all that's bad about "creative writing instruction" and conceptual poetry. I guess because there isn't an edge to much of this humor? It is comforting? Am I just resisting an end to the poetry wars which I think might have ended, as a very 20th Century thing given us by modernism, except for a few die-hard second-rate Wintersian polemicists who took a losing position by claiming not to be able to understand a word Barrett Watten, Iowa grad, puts to page? Or is they key to point out how funny some language poems are (after all, the reason I was able to read TEMBLOR while standing in a bookstore on 115th street) -- "students, don't think, you're romantic artists, here is a funny poem by Kit Robinson, who went to IOWA." Let me know, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:15:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's another way to look at this. I certainly don't want to try to define the term language poet, but it is possible to note that only six people who appeared in Silliman's American Tree anthology also appear in Creeley's BAP. Not a huge overlap. The absence of, say, Hejinian, Andrews, Perelman, Watten, Harryman, etc. is striking. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:24:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL > >(in Staten Island, New York) > > >SEPTEMBER 21ST > >NOON TO MIDNIGHT > >www.saintgeorgepoetryfestival.com > >The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an all-day celebration of >poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring together several >generations of poets from all across the country to read in a festival >atmosphere from Noon until Midnight. > >Readings will be interspersed with screenings of experimental films >inspired >by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. Presses and literary >magazines will feature works by the participants, and food and alcohol will >be available. > >The St. George Theatre is one of the city¹s forgotten treasures -- a >beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a vaudeville house and closed >for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival is a >benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a not-for-profit. > > 3 MINUTE WALK FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL > > >POETRY BY > > >Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret Caples >Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey >Robert Kelly Caroline Knox Noelle Kocot >Katie Lederer Frank Lima John Lowther >Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson D.A. Powell >Randy Prunty Peter Richards Elena Rivera >Matthew Rohrer Mark Schafer David Shapiro >Dale Smith Rick Snyder Laura Solomon >James Tate Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre >Dara Wier Elizabeth Willis John Yau Matthew Zapruder > >MUSIC BY > >JOE PERNICE / NEW RADIANT STORM KING / THE FIGMENTS > > >DOINGGGGG!!!!! >a short sound play to be performed by >Rob Casper, Matthea Harvey, Aimee Kelley, Gillian Kiley, Brett Lauer, >A. E. Wayne, and Sam White > >POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, 811 Books, Aufgabe, Baffling >Combustions, >Both, Cello Entry, Conduit, Crowd, Fence, Four Way Books, Granary Books, >Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left Hand Books, Open City, Radical Society, >Skanky >Possum, Slope, Soft Skull, Tender Buttons, Verse Press, Zephyr Press, etc. > > >RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets >SHORT FILMS done in collaboration with poets >WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island >READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon >READINGS for children > >$15 for all day admission > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:36:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets Comments: cc: KJOHNSON@hccstudent.highland.cc.il.us In-Reply-To: <001401c255c8$d2f5a7d0$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Interesting and similar thread on Poetry etc. Here's a short dialogue of mine and Kent Johnson's from the thread... Would love to hear what folks have to say. ====================== At 02:24 PM 9/5/2002, you wrote: >Doug Barbour said, > > >Kent... > > >Hank, you, I, and many others, even Bernstein, ARE academics, > >(as well)... > >Weell, Doug, I don't know. I teach at a decidedly rural community >college. I am an "Instructor" of remedial composition and Beginning >Spanish. That is what I teach. Research and publication is not only >not a priority, it is frowned upon. Frankly, I think one could say that >I am an Academic in the sense that a bricklayer is an Architect. > >I don't dislike academics. Some of my best friends are >academics... And OK, OK, so I am, *in part* an academic, even if I >am of lower race. The point I was pointing to in that epigram (and >I've made this point more conventionally and expansively >elsewhere) is that it is foolish --as well as disingenuous-- to >continue to frame Language poetry as non or anti-academic. >Language poetry is academic poetry through and through and has >been becoming such with increasing insistence (that word is on >purpose) for the past number of years. Many of its old leading >figures have been building careers in academia; literary theorists >and journals are widely ga-ga over Language poetry; and creative >writing programs are increasingly staffed and studented by writers >whose poetics orbit the original = = = center. This last is a >complex phenomenon, of course, but undeniable-- the MacPoem or >I-centered poem is still rampant, obviously, and always will be, but >the "cool" creative writing students, of which there are legions, now >write "Language-like" poems. > >Again, this is not a bad thing. But the poetry Silliman advocates is >no longer outside the academy, nor is its "poetics" marginalized, in >any fair sense of the word, inside the academy. This fact, as I said, >is not ipso facto bad. But it has certain implications, some of which >may not be good for the fullest possible health of poetic experiment. > >Kent True dat, Kent. And, amen, really. Here's the interesting part. I would venture to say that Langpo is even more dominant in the academy then the McPoem of Billy Collins. But, Billy Collins' books sell much more than Ron Silliman or Charles Bernstein or Lynn Hejinian or Bruce Andrews, etc. Do those who consider themselves Langpos out there believe it has anything to do with the Marxist theoretical underpinnings that Ron articulates in the NEW SENTENCE? Does espousing an anti-capitalist subjective rhetoric have anything to do with this? Why does Billy Collins sell more than Susan Howe? And, do Langpos base their "Langpo is outside the academy" logic on book sales? ================================================ At 01:14 PM 9/6/2002, you wrote: >I have always thought of "stereotypical Iowa poets" (should we say "AWP >poets" now instead? but the AWP IS the MLA) as the poets Kenneth Koch >derided in some lecture I read somewhere: the narrator is driving down a >road lined with corn fields thinking about his troubled marriage when he >hits a deer. Reasons to love Ceravolo's work? More troubling to me is >the relatively recent embrace in my local local community of the Koch - >Lehman etc. "Columbia boys" lineage of NYS School poetry as light verse >a la "Stand Up Poetry" (also a local thing). It's a logical conclusion >from "last avant garde" but all of a sudden I say New York School and I >mean every cheap and easy assignment poem that's ever come down the road >lined with corn. As you know, Mr. Collins (UC Riverside with Ron >Koertge) blurbed Towle's Collected. Yeah, verily, I have heard BH >Fairchild, Collins, and New York School mentioned in the same sentence, >"I do this, and I do that" on open-mike night, shouted over the >cappuccino machine, etc. I am even more distressed by exercises in >workshops, and the way in which they seem to be uniting all that's bad >about "creative writing instruction" and conceptual poetry. > >I guess because there isn't an edge to much of this humor? It is >comforting? > >Am I just resisting an end to the poetry wars which I think might have >ended, as a very 20th Century thing given us by modernism, except for a >few die-hard second-rate Wintersian polemicists who took a losing >position by claiming not to be able to understand a word Barrett Watten, >Iowa grad, puts to page? > >Or is they key to point out how funny some language poems are (after >all, the reason I was able to read TEMBLOR while standing in a bookstore >on 115th street) -- "students, don't think, you're romantic artists, >here is a funny poem by Kit Robinson, who went to IOWA." > >Let me know, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:59:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Rejections MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have my sympathy on that one. That must've hurt. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Heller" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 7:56 AM Subject: Rejections My most memorable rejection came over the phone when I was > sending my memoir, Living Root, out to agents. One agent had been a senior > editor at a publishing house, and when I called after a couple of months, > she said, you know some of this work reminds me of Leiris. I said, yes (my > heart leaping), his autobiography, Manhood, was something of an influence > on me. She then said, well, that's too bad; when we published Leiris, he > sold less than 500 copies, so I'll be returning your manuscript. It's > really not commerical enough. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:19:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/6/02 1:31:49 PM, RaeA100900@AOL.COM writes: << There's another way to look at this. I certainly don't want to try to define the term language poet, but it is possible to note that only six people who appeared in Silliman's American Tree anthology also appear in Creeley's BAP. Not a huge overlap. The absence of, say, Hejinian, Andrews, Perelman, Watten, Harryman, etc. is striking. >> The anthology should be called The Best Known American Poets and Those They Favor. Certainly a more honest account and one with which I would have no quarrel. It would still be an interesting anthology--perhaps more interesting so contextualized. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It's half-amusing, half-frustrating that many discussions on this list get detoured into the same vast dead-end. Whether Language Poets are taught in universities has nothing whatsoever to do with the publication of the BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002. I'd urge some of the people who have posted on these threads to now go check out the actual anthology. Bark up some another tree. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed from Robert Creeley's introduction: "Whether or not there is finally the 'best' of anything is no doubt a moot point. Yet one wants for those here assembled not only Coleridge's 'willing suspension of disbelief,' which enables all and any reality to be the case, but also a recognition that they are those who, as Charles Olson wrote on his own behalf, 'live [their] lives quite properly in print.' It's not that they don't each one have other lives, of whatever significance or value. But here they are as these words, and structures of words, allow them to be, neither more nor less... So what is *best* then? How is that choice ever to be made? Despite all the accumulating opinions, or, is it called, criticism, how can one possibly claim to know what's best in any respect? I think the debris of such assertion over the years I've lived. Was World War II the best? Was 'Better Living Through Chemistry' the best chance we all had? Or, even more haunting, *Is this the best we can do?* I'd like therefore to dismiss that specious and insupportable claim, at least for the present volume. These poems are *better* than the best, each and every one of them. If you don't agree, then go find your own--which is not offered as a challenge.... I thought that these poems now to follow were among a great many that might well follow them and also be the best, and that they in turn might well find others, so that they also might follow, and be the best, too--for each time, each place, and each person." _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:02:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: The Moving Target Series In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sometimes avant garde US humor makes me scratch my head: > >The Blue Room welcomes >>the return of >>The Moving Target Series >>2331 Mission St. btw 19th and 20th, San Francisco >>(415) 515-1210 for tix/ (415) 584-7415 for press >>www.blueroomgallery.org >> >>doors open 7:30pm, show at 8pm, $8-10 sliding scale >> >>September 11: 911 >>Six young men who feel deeply about their country offer a stirring tribute >>and testimonial on this most tragic of days. The Blue Room welcomes the >>White Ring for a star-spangled extravaganza that will be an inspiration to >>some, a warning to others, and a revelation to all. Are they Heroes? Or >>just >>ordinary, Red-Blooded Americans standing up for their God-given Rights in >>these Troubled Times? >> >>The White Ring met while stationed in Kuwait during the Gulf War in 1990. >>Through the common link of music, and a shared message of strength and hope >>through politics and melody, they have remained active collaborators since. >>They are widely known for their riveting stage seminars which skillfully >>blend their own brand of music, testimonials and dramatic representations >>of >>the problems we face as a "progressive" society today. They have challenged >>even the thickest-skinned audiences both domestically and in the Third >>World >>with their mix of powerful messages. They have been well received in the >>Indie Christian rock scene and released one of the earliest examples of >>"East Bay I.C." records in 1993 ("The Monkey Song" b/w "Ecumenical >>Movement"), but have also enjoyed unprecedented crossover into the >>underground circuit of America's more subversive, experimental music >>venues. >>In 2001, they were named Best Result of Operation Desert Storm by SF Weekly >>in their annual "Best of San Francisco" awards issue. Also on the bill is a >>special visit from Henley Hornbrook, of the Ground Zero Heroes, a traveling >>troupe of troubadours -- culled from the ranks of ordinary folks like You >>or >>Me -- that have made it their mission to spread the Word in the wake of the >>September attacks. These Heroes were not at Ground Zero as such at the time >>of the attacks on that fateful day, but they were close enough to get a >>whiff of the winds of change that blew over the wreckage, and Moving Target >>is proud to have one of them share his message with all of us. >> >>* * * * * * >>The Moving Target Series, San Francisco1s ongoing, roving presentation of >>performance, music, film, and movement, returns with a visit to The Blue >>Room for the month of September. Since 1999, the series (formerly curated >>by >>David Hadbawnik with Margaret Tedesco, now with Michael Smoler) has >>traveled >>to such disparate venues as 848 Community Space, Z Space, The Luggage > >Store, > >111 Minna Street, New Langton Arts, and The Lab, treating audiences to the > >best performance in the Bay Area. Moving Target has featured a wide variety > >of artists including The Foundry, Ruth Zaporah, Mads Lynnerup, Remy >>Charlip, >>Fred Frith, Negativland, Diane di Prima, Michelle Tea, Beth Lisick, and >>many >>others. >> >>* * * * * * >> >>Moving Target >>Wednesdays in September >>at The Blue Room >> >>September 18: Bad >>the Bay Area1s best poets convene to find out just how bad they can >>be...sifting through their own notebooks as well as the annals of >>Literature, these poets promise to do their Worst. With Kevin Killian, Bill >>Berkson, Beth Lisick, Andrew Felsinger, kari edwards, Norma Cole, Sean >>Finney, hosts Michael Smoler and David Hadbawnik, and more "bad" authors >>to >>come. >> >>September 25: What I Did Last Summer >>rare performances by Blevin Blectum, James Bewley, and Justin Veach -- George Bowering Likes the number 27. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:19:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Early Word Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This university will shortly post the following job announcement (& perhaps they'll correct my name when they do): OPEN RANK POSITION IN ANY FIELD OF AFRICAN AMERICAN LITERATURE AND CULTURE. The English Department seeks a scholar to join an established and growing program in African American literary studies. Suitable candidates should present a record of excellence in research and teaching. We offer competitive salary, varied teaching assignments, and professional support. We will begin reviewing applications October 25 and will continue accepting applications until the position is filled. Please send application letters and resumes to Aldon Nielson, Search Committee Chair, Box AA, Penn State, University Park, PA 16802. Penn State is committed to affirmative action, equal opportunity and the diversity of its workforce. Please pass this along to anybody you know who might be interested -- Penn State will also advertise Assistant Professor positions in Rhetoric & Comp. and in English Renaissance -- There will be a position advertised at the level of Assistant or "beginning" Associate (by which I guess they mean you just got promoted where you are) in American lit before 1900. Don't just yak about acadominance; here's your chance to acadominate on the side of good! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:51:04 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: basta american 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's another half-amusing, half-discussions on this frustrating universities that many get out-detoured into the same vast Bark up another Language Poets tree. some taught in the actual anthology has nothing whatsoever to do with the publication of the BEST urge. POETRY 2002 are of the people who have posted on these threads to now go. I thought that these poems now to follow were among a great many that might well follow them and also be the best, and that they in turn might Bark up some AMERICAN tree. I'd some check I thought. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:05:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan E Minton Subject: new issue of Word/For Word MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Word/For Word #2 is now available at http://www.wordforword.info/ The new issue includes exciting new work by Sheila Murphy, Lance Phillips, Cole Swensen, Larry Sawyer, Karen Garthe, Ken Rumble, Vernon Frazer, Jim Leftwich, Gwyn McVay, and Noah Gordon, plus reviews and essays. Comments, complaints, praise, queries, and submissions for issue #3 can be sent to editors@wordforword.info -------------------------- Noah E. Gordon "a falling in autumn" Felt as a mistake in translation, leave for leaf, so the tree is an exit, a door into weather, a symmetry in the spectrum & the stasis of an open page. Here, morning unfolds from moment. Recasting the body in sound. The trace of objects. Echoes. What's lost in the margins. Another X filling its box. All told, a centering of sorts. A sphere reflecting or spun to refraction. Webs, cross-stitched in the corners & the leaves, unlatching. Desire is the watermark of sight--a soaking-in. The absence of song or the absence of sin. Noise isn't what's been lost on ears, roots or dying limbs. It's impenetrable. & this is the silence we're playing back to the sky: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:53:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Bowery Poetry Club Museletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DearFriends, There's a temporary banner over the door now -- 308 BOWERY POETRY. Inside is an experiment in utopian artville, living poetry, culture connect. Some September highlights: Rumi Birthday Party -- classical Persian poetry and music, Tuesday the 10th at 8 The Tuli Show! -- Fugs frontman every Friday at 7pm Poetry Dialogues: premiere performances from three workshops that bring together masters of oral traditions and teenage hiphop poets. Led by Toni Blackman, Regie Cabico, Suheir Hammad. In collaboration with City Lore and Poets House - Saturday the 14th at 1pm The Sacred Slam -- spiritual poets fight it out with beauty. In collaboration w/ Tricycle Magazine. Saturday the 14th at 8pm Walter Mosley and Nikki Finney, in collaboration with Poetry Society of America , Wednesday the 18th at 8pm OUR GRAND OPENING!!!Three Days of it! Monday the 23rd a Benefit for the Bowery Mission with stories from the citizens of the Bowery's last flophouses. Tuesday the 24th: Eric Bogosian graces our stage as we celebrate the synergy of 308-10 Bowery: our sister club, Digital Video Dojo and our upstairs neighbor, Washington Square Films and Arts (who represent Eric); Wednesday the 25th -- all-poet spectacular! Sekou Sundiata, Sapphire, Hal Sirowitz, Steve Cannon, Maggie Estep, John S Hall, Jessica Hagedorn, John Rodriguez, Max Blagg.Enough for NOW (so many nows). But I do want to mention our all-day 9/11 event, "Poets Consensus," conceptualized by David Henderson. You'll be receiving a Museletter about this in just a few days. Check the whole calendar:bowerypoetry.com Cafe opens at 9am! Best coffee on the block! Try a yummy sandwich, why doncha? Bob The Bowery Poetry Club | 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012 | Foot of First Street between Houston & Bleecker across the street from CBGB | F train to Second Ave | 6 train to Bleecker | 212-614-0505 "Serving the World Poetry" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts In-Reply-To: <000101c25634$1b452680$5414d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the list-owner is Ryan Whyte. Alan On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: > Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking again, > but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. > Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. > > I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, either in > jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy called > Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. > . > > Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection > > Glass overthrow. > > I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows up > quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to Jeff > that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would still > allow Jeff his fantasy. > > I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his > knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same time.. > > The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with Alan's > consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back to > their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and quite > threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, now the > bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts to give > voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this happen? > Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on people who > protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? > > In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy of > language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so well. > > Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't have > said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff > Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. > > Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan > Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run his > factory on this list for another eight years. > > Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to some > of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of months. > If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal > yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. I'm > sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. > > As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, I > will return to more pressing matters. > > Jesse > > > Jess > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 21:18:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts Comments: To: sondheim@PANIX.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, In the old days, two or three years ago, I was rapped over the knuckles by the then manager of Buffalo Poetics for making up frivolous names for Mars Bars (in the interests of bonding with our British brothers, you see). Given the asperity of that regime, the current equanimity in the face of Jesse Glass's rather hateful attacks on Alan Sondheim is surprising. If Alan Sondheim, whom I have never met, asked me to wear a brown shirt to one of his manifestations, and if I had one, I would do it (if it didn't look too horrible). But not the sort of brown shirt Jesse Glass is talking about. Oh no. Not at all. Kent Johnson, is that you in Jesse Glass? Come out if that's you! Doesn't anyone care any more? Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna post as many frivolous names for Mars Bars as I can come up with. Meanwhile, 3 cheers for Lawrence Upton. Mairead >>> sondheim@PANIX.COM 09/06/02 19:51 PM >>> First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the list-owner is Ryan Whyte. Alan On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: > Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking again, > but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. > Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. > > I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, either in > jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy called > Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. > . > > Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection > > Glass overthrow. > > I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows up > quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to Jeff > that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would still > allow Jeff his fantasy. > > I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his > knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same time.. > > The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with Alan's > consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back to > their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and quite > threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, now the > bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts to give > voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this happen? > Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on people who > protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? > > In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy of > language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so well. > > Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't have > said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff > Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. > > Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan > Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run his > factory on this list for another eight years. > > Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to some > of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of months. > If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal > yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. I'm > sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. > > As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, I > will return to more pressing matters. > > Jesse > > > Jess > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:45:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: DROWNING IN THE AGE OF MID-AIR Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dipping into rust, the trees protrude like abandonment, creasing a sky swollen with leaves. The birds are frilled with oxidation; their departing calls scrape over the fresh abrasion dusk leaves on our faces, peppered with the waking bats' morning thrum; and now I feel like I'm walking through quicksand. As fast as all this is, curbs like crusts of day-old bread ridge the parking lot, dipping at times into walkways as graceful as your shoulders when I rub you to burrs, thistlelicious, with no envy for things that float. I wish I was a hummingbird too, you tell me: but that's a sadness like walking through the coldest water cupped in the back of your throat, and not even fighting as it fills you up. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:46:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ONLINE CONTENT PROVIDER Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I paint the whites of my eyes. I paint them green, with gradations absconding. I paint my eyes the same as the colors of mirrors reveal. Color is sex. It arcs out of the three-dimensional in a bend that is seditious, is collage of relation and expectance. What exception to this, that I point to the plain of my eyes, and flying know only their insides as a verso of dimming! Shoves a dissolves of crystal in your see the personal of sits rigid but within on no faults in the coloring but sighs away from us explosion rear restaurant centering waits stilly cooling on glass in everything show business bitterness as timid so relentless teleportation dimensioned white colors low sitting at pasture rivets endanger cup funnel churl knives in cornea cochlea slow buildings After you go to work, which is usual in this, I go out on the back porch and sit with a cigarette in my hand trying to read. I am waiting to render my music as an mp3. Several reasons why site is wonderful, while sitting here, coat my tongue just as well as if they were online literary venues, all of which contain work similar to yours and yet refuse to publish her. He stands up, angular head just conically brushing the low-flung ceiling elegant as a woman's hand pastry clumped in with exotic scale tabulature that makes possible in skeletal upbringing the child's ultimate uselessness as a reason to sit and bitch and moan about almost totally unacceptable behavior, anon. Let the games begin, she thinks. Moss erupts on both sides of the trees in Richmond Virginia. They swung across a fleshless pool of dimming radar eqipment that couldn't scan the horizon anymore; sitting back down, he notices the wild breathing of flaneur yarn spun winded around his facial gestures. I doubt very seriously that the color of this font is as pleasing as a deep throat full of verbs. Gradually, I write the seminal influence of color across my hands. It's night is drawing near, shadows in the very shape of liquid dusk suddenly, like a rain or a relief from under a vellum sky. That I want to tear your clothes off, or your skin, that I am a ghost seeking embodiment, bodes harm on a casing that limns out review material for the online content provider, 1967, and and was wash with gray saw fart tarsel. Getting by. I pint my hunds gray, thee sane colour as you, who imprint the temporal with heat the size of reading, wedding flesh to neuralgia, asterisks to resin stacked and garbage calculated, with algebra on my mind again, how it soothes to collapse variables on a level with de Kooning. These exceptions to green are a delicious slow building romance, one that leaves her alone in a humming room, eyes locked safely behind crystal watching him monitor the sluggish eroticism that servers erupt into when stroked. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:57:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Palma Subject: Tune-in Saturday Sept. 7th on KXLU Los Angeles - 88.9 FM also now streaming online Comments: To: laculturenet@yahoogroups.com, panetwork_litarts@yahoogroups.com, PANetwork_litarts@yahoogroups.com, Visual Communications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is for tomorrow Saturday night - Echo in the Sense is a literary and cultural affairs program on KXLU Los Angeles - 88.9 FM and now we are also STREAMING LIVE ON THE WEB! http://www.kxlu.com It airs every Saturday evening from 8 to 9 pm and is produced and hosted by Christine Palma. **TUNE IN ! Saturday evening Sept. 7th - from 8 to 9 pm - my guest is novelist and performance artist **NOEL ALUMIT** Cheers, Christine PS. Also Support the Filipino Festival of Arts and Culture in San Pedro on Saturday during the day! ALL ABOUT NOEL ALUMIT - Noel Alumit was born in Baguio City in The Philippines then raised in the United States. He is the second of four children and is addicted to chocolate. Due to his chocolate habit, Noel keeps in shape by running long distances. He has five marathons and a number of other races under his belt. He earned his Bachelor of Fine Arts in Drama from the University of Southern California, studied playwriting at the David Henry Hwang Writers Institute at East West Players. His play Mr. and Mrs. La Questa Go Dancing was produced by Teatro Ng Tanan in San Francisco and he has had other plays read at East West Players in Los Angeles and the Ma Yi Theatre Company in New York. His one-man show The Rice Room: Scenes from a Bar received critical praise and played to sold-out houses in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Santa Barbara, Boston, and Philadelphia. The San Francisco Bay Guardian named The Rice Room one of the best solo productions of the year. He recently premiered his latest solo show Master of the (miss) Universe at Highways Performance Art Space in Santa Monica California. Master of the (miss) Universe was named =ECBest Bet=EE by the Los Angeles Times. "Univers= e" will run at Highways Performance Space in Santa Monica on September 12 and 13. It will run in San Francisco in October. His first novel Letters to Montgomery Clift is a fiction finalist for the Southern California Booksellers Association awards and a finalist for the Violet Quill, a prize given to an emerging gay author working in fiction. He received an Emerging Voices Fellowship from PEN Center USA West and a Community Access Scholarship to UCLA=EDs Writers Extension, studying fiction and the personal essay form. His work has been published in Tilting the Continent (New Rivers Press), Take Out (Asian American Writers Workshop/Temple University), and the literary journal DisOrient. As an actor, Noel's film and TV credits include Beverly Hills 90210, The Young and the Restless, and Red Surf. He has performed in many Los Angeles productions, including the world premiere of Chay Yew=EDs A Language of Thei= r Own (LA Weekly Award) and Michael Kearns=ED Whose Afraid of Edward Albee. Noel is most proud of his work preventing HIV infection in gay Asian men with the Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention Team. He has been an employee with APAIT for nine years. ____________________________________ Christine Palma "Echo in the Sense" - Poetry, Prose, Performance - Cultural and Public Affairs Programming KXLU Los Angeles - 88.9 FM Saturday Evenings from 8 to 9 PM E-mail: Christine@DROMO.com "Take a step into the sublime. . ." =09 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 01:58:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Re: Zero Star Hotel by Anselm Berrigan, new from Edge Books Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Re: Zero Star Hotel by Anselm Berrigan, new from Edge Books I strongly second Kevin's high praise of this poem. I saw it in a perhaps earlier form-- constructed in a grid of tight, sonnet-like stanzas that can be read down or across or both ways simultaneously-- and was blown away. (I wanted to put some of it in Ecopoetics, but didn't know how to excerpt it-- it's so much of a piece.) An amazing zoom between macro and micro, and command of a page moving in all directions at once. Very tightly executed, and maximally open to surprise. While the emotion remains highly focused, the modes of reading seem numerous, if not endless. Get it. JS ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 05:19:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: BYLINERS AND HEADLINERS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII BYLINERS AND HEADLINERS BYLINERS 1949 Michelfelder Betta Kappler Aumuller Silvia Cestelle---Davis and Longgood should be enough. Quade---Keep it alive if possible. Terwilliger---If Deravel has time. Gloria Vanderbilt---Keep checking. Churchill Leaves---Make check with Baruch. British Info and La Guardia, and police for arrangements. Eden---To receive degree at Columbia. I think he is at Waldorf. Call to see if there will be an advance. Menmouth Depe---Remind Mewery to call again. C-46 Probe---This was very unprofitable yesterday. Let's try SNA. Food & Drug---Would like Muriel to try this again. Double Parking---Will try to get started. Bklyn Gas---Ditto. Dock Strike---Looked pretty black last night. Alvarez again. Gold Seizure---Had Jimmy working hotel for onite. Try to keep story alive, even if you have to suck wind. Ben-Gurion---Sally has 10 am date with Renana for onite. Like pix. Poice Promotion---Mike and possibly photog. at 11. Gringe Gang---Either Turk or Deravel or SNA according to what happens. Cat Show---Opens at Mc Alpi at 11. Phelan, after he sends Marty the copy story. Beekman Lunch---Hope APL does this one. Marty-the-Cop---Will say his final farewell at 8 am. Photog assigned. Mike and Mickey, call Phelan at home before 7 and assign him to go direct. Gideonse---Woltman back with the commies. 17 Commies---Let APL watch. Whitney Foundation---IF we had Lenny, it might be for him. APL or nothing. Linen Gyps---Like Prell to break series for a few hours to check back with BBB and develop this stuff. Johnson Hearing---APL, I hope. Dr. Schellman---Tried him last night. He out. Try again by phone about 730 or 8. (more) memo----2 Sales Tax---This looks damned good tip. Let me talk to Murray Davis before he goes to Costello. mod HEADLINERS 1949 Michelfelder Betta Kappler Aumuller Silvia Cestelle---Davis and Longgood Cestelle---Davis should and be Longgood enough. should Quade---Keep it alive if Quade---Keep possible. it Terwilliger---If Deravel has time. Gloria Vanderbilt---Keep checking. Churchill Leaves---Make Leaves---Make check check with with Baruch. Baruch. British British Info Info La La Guardia, Guardia, Churchill police for arrangements. Eden---To Columbia. receive I degree think at he Columbia. is I Waldorf. think Call he to is Eden---To Waldorf. receive Call degree to at see there will an see advance. there Menmouth Depe--Remind Mewery call Menmouth again. Depe---Remind C-46 Probe---This Probe---This was was very very unprofitable unprofitable yesterday. yesterday. Let's Let's try try SNA. SNA. C-46 Food Drug---Would & like Drug---Would Muriel like this Muriel Double this Parking---Will Double get Parking---Will started. get Food started. & Bklyn Gas---Ditto. Dock Seizure---Had Strike---Looked Jimmy pretty working black hotel last onite. night. Try Alvarez keep Gold story Seizure---Had Dock Jimmy Strike---Looked working pretty hotel black onite. last Try night. keep Alvarez story Gold alive, even you alive, have even suck you wind. have Ben-Gurion---Sally 10 Ben-Gurion---Sally am 10 date am Renana date Like Renana pix. Like Poice Promotion---Mike possibly photog. Poice 11. Promotion---Mike Gringe Gringe Gang---Either Gang---Either Turk Turk or or SNA SNA according according what what happens. happens. Cat Show---Opens Show---Opens Mc Mc Alpi Alpi Phelan, Phelan, after after sends sends Marty Marty the the Cat copy story. Beekman Lunch---Hope APL does Beekman one. Lunch---Hope Marty-the-Cop---Will say say his his final final farewell farewell 8 8 am. am. Photog Photog assigned. assigned. Marty-the-Cop---Will Mike Mickey, Mickey, Phelan Phelan home home before before 7 7 assign assign him him go go Mike direct. Gideonse---Woltman back commies. 17 Commies---Let watch. Whitney Whitney Foundation---IF Foundation--IF we we had had Lenny, Lenny, might might him. him. nothing. nothing. Linen break Gyps---Like series Prell a break few series hours a BBB few develop hours stuff. BBB Linen develop Gyps---Like stuff. Prell Johnson Hearing---APL, hope. Dr. Dr. Schellman---Tried Schellman---Tried He He out. out. again again by by phone phone about about 730 8. (more) memo----2 Sales damned Tax---This good looks tip. damned Let good me tip. talk Let Murray me Davis talk Sales Murray Tax---This Davis looks goes Costello. mod === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:12:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Poets on Air MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit fyi - forwarded announcement from Susanna Rich of Kean College: We will be broadcasting the inaugural program of Poets on Air over the Kean University Radio station, WKNJ, Union 90.3FM at noon on Wednesday 9/11/02. It will be a memorial blending poetry and music in response to the terrorist attacks of last September. Hope you can tune in to listen to poems by such luminaries as Emily Dickinson, W.B. Yeats, Stephen Dunn, Charlotte Mandel, Carole Stone, and many others. We are still in the process of arranging interviews and possible simulcasts. If you can't tune in, let me know if you want a CD copy. The station's reach is short, but sometimes it helps if you sit in your car. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:28:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" hi mairead: we haven't been equanimous at all; check out, in the poetix archives, the long threads entitled first "Help!" and then "attacks." what you are reading, about brown-shirts etc, is round two of a series of salvos that started in july. and really jesse, brown-shirts is too much, as is mention of hitler. is this part of your continued attempt to provoke meaningful discussion? there are better ways. those of us who identify as jews (including of course sondheim) do not take kindly to such bad taste, nor do many others, including, as you can see, lawrence upton and mairead byrne. md At 9:18 PM -0400 9/6/02, Mairead Byrne wrote: >Dear All, > >In the old days, two or three years ago, I was rapped over the knuckles >by the then manager of Buffalo Poetics for making up frivolous names for >Mars Bars (in the interests of bonding with our British brothers, you >see). Given the asperity of that regime, the current equanimity in the >face of Jesse Glass's rather hateful attacks on Alan Sondheim >is surprising. If Alan Sondheim, whom I have never met, asked me to >wear a brown shirt to one of his manifestations, and if I had one, I >would do it (if it didn't look too horrible). But >not the sort of brown shirt Jesse Glass is talking about. Oh no. Not >at all. Kent Johnson, is that you in Jesse Glass? Come out if that's >you! Doesn't anyone care any more? Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna post as >many frivolous names for Mars Bars as I can come up with. Meanwhile, 3 >cheers for Lawrence Upton. > >Mairead > >>>> sondheim@PANIX.COM 09/06/02 19:51 PM >>> >First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy >list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the >list-owner is Ryan Whyte. > >Alan > >On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: > >> Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking >again, >> but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. >> Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. >> >> I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, >either in >> jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy >called >> Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. >> . >> >> Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection >> >> Glass overthrow. >> >> I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows >up >> quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to >Jeff >> that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would >still >> allow Jeff his fantasy. >> >> I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his >> knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same >time.. >> >> The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with >Alan's >> consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back >to >> their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and >quite >> threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, >now the >> bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts >to give >> voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this >happen? >> Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on >people who > > protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? > > > > In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy >of > > language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so >well. >> >> Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't >have >> said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff >> Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. >> >> Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan >> Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run >his >> factory on this list for another eight years. >> >> Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to >some >> of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of >months. >> If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal >> yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. >I'm >> sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. >> >> As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, >I >> will return to more pressing matters. >> >> Jesse >> >> >> Jess >> > >Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm >CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:46:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: New Poetics / Wayne State University Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ F O R I M M E D I A T E R E L E A S E ] New Poetics: New Genres / New Media Reading, Performance, Lecture, and Discussion Series Curated by Carla Harryman and Barrett Watten Department of English, Wayne State University F A L L 2 0 0 2 P R O G R A M Link: http://www.english.wayne.edu/~watten/newpoetics.html Rodrigo Toscano and Renee Gladman Reading and Discussion Thursday, September 19, 3 pm Conference Room, 3234 51 W. Warren Ave., Detroit Rodrigo Toscano is an experimental poet and labor activist, based in New=20 York. He has curated the Double Happiness reading series and is author of=20 Partisans (O Books, 1999) and The Disparities (Green Integer, 2001). Atelos= =20 will bring out Platform, a major new collection, this year. Barrett Watten= =20 has written: =93Toscano brilliantly renews a tradition of poetics based in= =20 the structuring work of grammar. His work is an ethical disquisition =91As= =20 against / The set relations=92 that revises much current doxa on the nature= =20 of linguistic agency.=94 Renee Gladman is a new narrative writer, formerly of Atlanta and San=20 Francisco and now living in New York. Her prose collections include Arlem=20 (Idiom Books, 1996), Not Right Now (Second Story Books, 1997), and Juice=20 (Kelsey Street Press, 2000). She edited Clamour, a magazine of innovative=20 writing that emphasized the work of women of color, and is currently=20 publishing a chapbook series under the imprint of Leroy Press. Giselle Beiguelman New Media Presentation and Discussion Tuesday, October 15, 3 pm Conference Room, 3234 51 W. Warren Ave., Detroit Giselle Beiguelman is a new media artist and multimedia essayist from in=20 S=E3o Paulo, Brazil. She teaches Digital Culture and Literature in the=20 Communication and Semiotics Program, PUC. Since 1998, she has directed=20 desvirtual.com, an on-line editorial studio. Her work includes the=20 award-winning "The Book after the Book" and =93Content =3D No Cache.=94 She= has=20 recently made art pieces for .wap files (downloadable on cell phones and=20 similar devices). Her real-time, public-access, internet-streaming project= =20 in urban S=E3o Paulo was featured in the New York Times. Brian Kim Stefans and Caroline Bergvall New Media Presentation and Dialogue with Strucklit Tuesday, November 12, 3 pm Conference Room, 3234 51 W. Warren Ave., Detroit Followed by a Reading and Performance at 7 pm The Scarab Club, 271 E. Farnsworth (corner of John R), Detroit Brian Kim Stefans is a poet and new media artist. His books include Free=20 Space Comix (Roof, 1998), Gulf (Object Editions, 1998), and Angry Penguins= =20 (Harry Tankoos, 2000). Fashionable Noise: On Digital Poetics will appear=20 from Atelos in early 2003. He edits Arras: new media poetry and poetics,=20 which publishes digital poetry, literary criticism, and Acrobat files of=20 reprints and original titles. He is also editor of /ubu, an Acrobat wing of= =20 ubu.com. His web poems "The Dreamlife of Letters" and "The Truth Interview"= =20 can be found at Arras. Caroline Bergvall is a writer of cross-disciplinary and bilingually sourced= =20 performances. For several years she directed the performance writing=20 program at Dartington College, U.K. She is anthologized in Out of=20 Everywhere: Experimental Writing by Women (Reality Street). Sound &=20 Language (Lowestoft, U.K.) published Eclat in 1996, and Krupskaya Books=20 (San Francisco) brought out Goan Atom in 2001, =93The text gives succour to= =20 impressions that this is a post-Dada, post-surrealist poetics, one that=20 pooh-poohs the boy=92s own paper heroics otherwise familiar from various=20 admirers of Bataille and Deleuze.=94 Lytle Shaw Instrumental Images: Meta-Illustration in American Art Since 1980 Lecture and Discussion Thursday, December 5, 3 pm Conference Room, 3234 51 W. Warren Ave., Detroit Lytle Shaw is co-editor of Shark, a journal of art and literature, curator= =20 of readings at The Drawing Center (New York), and contributor to The=20 Poetics of New Meaning. A book on the coterie poetics of New York poet=20 Frank O=92Hara is currently in preparation for a university press. His=20 literary publications include The Lobe (Roof, 2002), A Side of Closure=20 (A+Bend Press, 2000), and Cable Factory 20 (Atelos, 1999). He has=20 collaborated with the painter Emilie Clark. =85 Sponsored by The Humanities Center, Wayne State University The Department of English The Working Group in Digital Culture YMCA/Writers=92 Voice ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 07:56:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Shamans with a Modem: Joseph and Donna McElroy Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/15239/94995 Shamans with a Modem: Joseph and Donna McElroy The web isn't commonly thought of as a performative medium, though in actuality, in the very mechanisms of its realization, it very much is... http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:43:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts Comments: To: damon001@UMN.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Maria and all, I've been out of the loop and have only been following these discussions since the beginning of August. Even in that time though I've been surprised at what appears to be list management tolerance of viciousness. This surprises me because even frivolity was frowned on when I was last a contributor. I was wrong to suggest an affinity between Kent Johnson and Jesse Glass. I do wonder why Jesse is tolerated and Kent wasn't. I'd be very happy to read Kent's contributions here, and Henry Gould's and Gabriel Gudding's. Yes sirree. One of the problems of list culture, and I've just exemplified it, to my regret, is that one can tend to be way too slick with names; way too slick with words in general. Mairead >>> damon001@UMN.EDU 09/07/02 08:51 AM >>> hi mairead: we haven't been equanimous at all; check out, in the poetix archives, the long threads entitled first "Help!" and then "attacks." what you are reading, about brown-shirts etc, is round two of a series of salvos that started in july. and really jesse, brown-shirts is too much, as is mention of hitler. is this part of your continued attempt to provoke meaningful discussion? there are better ways. those of us who identify as jews (including of course sondheim) do not take kindly to such bad taste, nor do many others, including, as you can see, lawrence upton and mairead byrne. md At 9:18 PM -0400 9/6/02, Mairead Byrne wrote: >Dear All, > >In the old days, two or three years ago, I was rapped over the knuckles >by the then manager of Buffalo Poetics for making up frivolous names for >Mars Bars (in the interests of bonding with our British brothers, you >see). Given the asperity of that regime, the current equanimity in the >face of Jesse Glass's rather hateful attacks on Alan Sondheim >is surprising. If Alan Sondheim, whom I have never met, asked me to >wear a brown shirt to one of his manifestations, and if I had one, I >would do it (if it didn't look too horrible). But >not the sort of brown shirt Jesse Glass is talking about. Oh no. Not >at all. Kent Johnson, is that you in Jesse Glass? Come out if that's >you! Doesn't anyone care any more? Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna post as >many frivolous names for Mars Bars as I can come up with. Meanwhile, 3 >cheers for Lawrence Upton. > >Mairead > >>>> sondheim@PANIX.COM 09/06/02 19:51 PM >>> >First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy >list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the >list-owner is Ryan Whyte. > >Alan > >On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: > >> Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking >again, >> but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. >> Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. >> >> I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, >either in >> jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy >called >> Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. >> . >> >> Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection >> >> Glass overthrow. >> >> I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows >up >> quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to >Jeff >> that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would >still >> allow Jeff his fantasy. >> >> I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his >> knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same >time.. >> >> The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with >Alan's >> consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back >to >> their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and >quite >> threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, >now the >> bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts >to give >> voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this >happen? >> Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on >people who > > protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? > > > > In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy >of > > language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so >well. >> >> Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't >have >> said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff >> Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. >> >> Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan >> Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run >his >> factory on this list for another eight years. >> >> Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to >some >> of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of >months. >> If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal >> yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. >I'm >> sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. >> >> As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, >I >> will return to more pressing matters. >> >> Jesse >> >> >> Jess >> > >Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm >CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:11:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Poets on Air In-Reply-To: <1a8.7fe7eec.2aab4723@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >fyi - forwarded announcement from Susanna Rich of Kean College: > We will be broadcasting the inaugural program of Poets on Air over the >Kean University Radio station, WKNJ, Union 90.3FM at noon on Wednesday >9/11/02. It will be a memorial blending poetry and music in response to the >terrorist attacks of last September. Hope you can tune in to listen to poems >by such luminaries as Emily Dickinson, W.B. Yeats, Stephen Dunn, Charlotte >Mandel, Carole Stone, and many others. We are still in the process of >arranging interviews and possible simulcasts. If you can't tune in, let me >know if you want a CD copy. The station's reach is short, but sometimes it >helps if you sit in your car. I know that radio stations that start with W are east of the Mississippi, but where is Kean College? -- George Bowering Likes the number 27. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 18:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Poets on Air MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George It's in Union, New Jersey. See www.kean.edu if you need more details. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Re: Poets on Air >> I know that radio stations that start with W are east of the > Mississippi, but where is Kean College? > -- > George Bowering > Likes the number 27. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:12:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts- Kent Reading this Thurs, 12th, in SF In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Come out and see Kent Johnson, one of VeRT's contributors as The Poetry Center Presents: This Thursday, September 12th Erin Mour=E9 & Kent Johnson evening reading at Unitarian Center, San Francisco @ 7:30 pm for further info see Poetry Center calendar or website www.sfsu.edu/~poetry or telephone 415-338-2227 see you there... Andrew ----------------------------------------------- VeRT =20 =20 "I am finally entangled clear." --Clark Coolidge http://www.litvert.com > From: Mairead Byrne > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:43:59 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts >=20 > Dear Maria and all, >=20 > I've been out of the loop and have only been following these discussions > since the beginning of August. Even in that time though I've been > surprised at what appears to be > list management tolerance of viciousness. This surprises me because > even frivolity > was frowned on when I was last a contributor. I was wrong to suggest an > affinity > between Kent Johnson and Jesse Glass. I do wonder why Jesse is > tolerated and Kent wasn't. I'd be very happy to read Kent's > contributions here, and Henry Gould's and Gabriel Gudding's. Yes > sirree. One of the problems of list culture, and I've just exemplified > it, > to my regret, is that one can tend to be way too slick with names; way > too slick with words in general. >=20 > Mairead >=20 >>>> damon001@UMN.EDU 09/07/02 08:51 AM >>> > hi mairead: we haven't been equanimous at all; check out, in the > poetix archives, the long threads entitled first "Help!" and then > "attacks." what you are reading, about brown-shirts etc, is round > two of a series of salvos that started in july. >=20 > and really jesse, brown-shirts is too much, as is mention of hitler. > is this part of your continued attempt to provoke meaningful > discussion? there are better ways. those of us who identify as jews > (including of course sondheim) do not take kindly to such bad taste, > nor do many others, including, as you can see, lawrence upton and > mairead byrne. md >=20 > At 9:18 PM -0400 9/6/02, Mairead Byrne wrote: >> Dear All, >>=20 >> In the old days, two or three years ago, I was rapped over the knuckles >> by the then manager of Buffalo Poetics for making up frivolous names > for >> Mars Bars (in the interests of bonding with our British brothers, you >> see). Given the asperity of that regime, the current equanimity in the >> face of Jesse Glass's rather hateful attacks on Alan Sondheim >> is surprising. If Alan Sondheim, whom I have never met, asked me to >> wear a brown shirt to one of his manifestations, and if I had one, I >> would do it (if it didn't look too horrible). But >> not the sort of brown shirt Jesse Glass is talking about. Oh no. Not >> at all. Kent Johnson, is that you in Jesse Glass? Come out if that's >> you! Doesn't anyone care any more? Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna post as >> many frivolous names for Mars Bars as I can come up with. Meanwhile, 3 >> cheers for Lawrence Upton. >>=20 >> Mairead >>=20 >>>>> sondheim@PANIX.COM 09/06/02 19:51 PM >>> >> First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy >> list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the >> list-owner is Ryan Whyte. >>=20 >> Alan >>=20 >> On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: >>=20 >>> Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to > lurking >> again, >>> but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's > attention. >>> Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. >>>=20 >>> I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, >> either in >>> jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little > diddy >> called >>> Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. >>> . >>>=20 >>> Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection >>>=20 >>> Glass overthrow. >>>=20 >>> I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which > shows >> up >>> quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to >> Jeff >>> that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which > would >> still >>> allow Jeff his fantasy. >>>=20 >>> I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his >>> knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same >> time.. >>>=20 >>> The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with >> Alan's >>> consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back >> to >>> their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and >> quite >>> threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, >> now the >>> bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts >> to give >>> voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this >> happen? >>> Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on >> people who >>> protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? >>>=20 >>> In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French > philosophy >> of >>> language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew > so >> well. >>>=20 >>> Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I > shouldn't >> have >>> said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff >>> Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. >>>=20 >>> Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if > Alan >>> Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to > run >> his >>> factory on this list for another eight years. >>>=20 >>> Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over > to >> some >>> of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of >> months. >>> If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal >>> yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous > too. >> I'm >>> sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. >>>=20 >>> As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's > permission, >> I >>> will return to more pressing matters. >>>=20 >>> Jesse >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Jess >>>=20 >>=20 >> Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >> Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >> Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm >> CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 11:18:33 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: on being rejected Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the other side of the coin is that from the receiving end of a deluge of = poetry submissions it's often hard finding time for a personal response. Ralph >The letters sometimes suck. One small journal simply wrote "Sorry to say >no." I think the editor was suffering under an ink shortage. Another, >absolutely nothing but a 2.5"x8.5" slip with an address and two printed >sentences. Nothing handwritten at all. It sure beat the deafening >no-response silences of the other three, however. This transmission is intended solely for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you have received this transmission in error, you may not use, copy or distribute it. Please advise us by return e-mail or by phoning 61 3 62338117 and immediately delete the transmission in its entirety. We will meet your reasonable expenses of notifying us. Despite our use of anti-virus software, Forestry Tasmania cannot guarantee that this transmission is virus-free. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 23:06:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: breathing of move.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII breathing of move.mov waterways. scramble camera,please edit your Subject li waterways. scramble camera,n the "i Subject: Re: Sv: E waterways. scramble camera,sitecyber than "Re: Content waterways. scramble camera,t is in the "iso-8859-1" ch waterways. scramble camera,, please edit your Subject waterways. scramble camera,[ Your display is set for t waterways. scramble camera, ]ld at M than "Re: Conte waterways. scramble camera,t his mouth flies open. there's that to the right of things, the mouth. her hand moves up to the neck, down to the groin. particles of breath fly among them. she moves jerked by the camera scramble for position. gold particles to the left, silver to the right. her body thrust across the internal convex surface. she glances, shakes. her mouth flies open. her mouth flies open. there's that to the right of things, the mouth. his hand moves down parting her legs. particles of breath fly among them. he moves jerked by the camera, scramble for position. gold particles to the left, silver to the right. his body thrust across the internal convex surface. he glances, shakes. his mouth flies open. waterways. she moves jerked by the camera scramble for position.eings,set: ISO-8859-1) least-positive-single-fl gold particles to the left, silver to the right.ing (corsetry, dieting,olute truth least-positiv her body thrust across the internal convex surface.ing, binding, constriction, negation, elongation, e she glances, shakes. her mouth flies open.our ears andacter set probe-filehave had a her mouth flies open.politics - transforma there's that to the right of things, the mouth.that is a his mouth flies open. there's that that to to the the right right of of things, things, the mouth. there's her up hand to moves the up neck, neck, the down groin. groin. moves particles breath particles fly of among breath them. fly she moves jerked by by the camera scramble scramble for for position. position. she gold particles left, silver silver to right. gold body body thrust thrust across across internal internal convex convex surface. surface. glances, she shakes. glances, parting down legs. her he moves camera, scramble waterways. open. flies mouth hisNTO.CA>----------- C-46 Probe---This was very unprofitable yesterday. Let's try SNA. his mouth flies open. d say that they are waterways.act I do n his mouth flies open. like Muriel to try t waterways.a@web.net> his mouth flies open.aracters may be pprint-indentarlotte pprint-li his hand moves down parting her legs.es and/or in other historical epochs particles of breath fly among them.002 22:21:51 > EXCH in-package Huma he moves jerked by the camera, scramble for position.- cosmetic surgery - fatness; anorexia; eating - tech gold particles to the left, she moves jerked by the camera scramble for position.eings,set: ISO-8859-1) least-positive-single-fl gold particles to the left, silver to the right.ing (corsetry, dieting,olute truth least-positiv her body thrust across the internal convex surface.ing, binding, constriction, negation, elongation, e she glances, shakes. her mouth flies open.our ears andacter set probe-filehave had a her mouth flies open === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 16:02:51 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts: how i learnt a new word.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse. You are allowed of course to say (just about anything) on the list - with the obvious exceptions of malicious name calling, racialism (although there is a problem with too much PC which I like PC but is can become bad: eg I was atacked for supporting or at least not feeling that the Taliban were so bad by some wonman as my comments re women there appeared to be anti-women: now it is not true, what I was pointing to was the way that issue of )(the way women are orientated in eastern societies etc) was being used to smokescreen the Afgahnistan question and also to heal Bush etal build up for war: but in general, and given that ALL countries wor for it, I want to see eg woman's equality and so on and other human rights) Now I doubt that people are threatening to attack you physically: we all say things and this is place for discussion...we arent about to go to war with each other. If people by ad large agreed with you it might come to: "We should restrict Alan's postings...." However I think that the two posts a day is good. It stops me sending too much drivel. But you have a right to put your case. But think of it this way: Alan is at least a "maker" (definition of a poet ) (a "doer") sure I agree its all a bit overwhelming: and I found that when I first came on. But I "talked" to Alan and he seems a nice guy: I have his CD ROM and I respect his energy his strangeness ( I mean what appears to me to be such)...sure some might put it all down as "drivel'"but then we risk not appreciating some very original work [and of course it would be strange if EVERYTHING Alan wrote was of equal quality - but the point here is that he is doing a project: working, doing,TRYING energising the airwaves.....]..Now Alan and Wystan and eg my friend Leicester Kyle and others who do projects, lists etc etc earn my respect: (i'm inspired quite by their examples) the passion and or continuing interest of these writers is inspiring as were all the great writers epics you can name [and many of course unamed and not "in the canon" as outlined by Monsieur Harold Bloom bless his beard!] from Homer through Milton Pope Wordsworth Browning to Pound Olson Williams David Jones Geoffrey Hill Zukofsky Ronald Johnson and many more eg those like Jim Andrews and others who are bridging the boundaries wth their art/poetry/voivce/movies/interaction/cooperation/music/computer "jargon"/philosophy/science/politics/languages/mysticism/history/craft/pure strangeness/semi-controlled gobbledy gook/ and so on, and much much more and such as Ron Silliman of his A to Z series and all the others we/you/I know or dont know about: they are fascinating, and that leaves out the Chinese and many other writers in many other countries and languages and times...so many creative people with so many ideas: now that doesnt eliminate individual writing or lyrics,they are not mutually exclusive: wystan and others and leicester and pound have and zuk and williams etc have inspired me to attempt various projects eg one is a kind oof (my) family-centred "project" wich is also a kind of journal..and alan has also inspired me: now that's BECAUSE of the frequency of his posts although i dont get to read as much of them as i'd like: clearly Alan is passionate about it: if you and I dont have the energy or talent (we probably do maybe just not now) we shouldnt crit. Alan: however i use "should" (or "shouldnt") guardedly as you and I must also have the right to critique. Tony Follari slapped me on the knuckles over something said recently;fair enough; i was bit out of line again but was getting "worked up" having just been venturing into reading stuff by Pilger and felt Tony was being too frivolous.... But as to threatening you: if they are they shouldnt - and you are a fairly humorous person: but Alan feels passionate (maybe he's a little over-serious about things but that's the way he is driven just now ..or for the last 8 years!) ...I see other stuff on here that i dont like but I just glance thru it then delete (same fate probably happens to a lot of my posts but that's how things go))....as to "brown shirt" its obviously rhetoric so i wouldnt worry about that; we humans always use rhetoric of some kind: but you need to "stick to your guns" ( ok one can have second thoughts but they shouldnt maybe be based too much on "pressure" but on consideration of others' ideas) not send counter - messages that you were just shit stirring...although I suppose that has its place: but Alan, as I belabour, is clearly very serious (although I also detect some humour in his posts).... There's nothing wrong with you critiquing Alan etc but I doubt that there are so many that are Alan's friends....i think there are some who like his work, many who are more or less indifferent and some who detest it...and thus and so it is. The list is a place I feel for information discussion,poetry as, and after or while its being created: notices, suppport, ideas, links and so on....and I feel it should be (if at all) lightly censored.... If your concerned about saying "upsetting" or "crazy things" have a look at some of my posts (on the archives): it was from a certain Canadian gentleman (who shall remain unamed for now by moi) that I thus learnt a new word "chutzpah"...... Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "jesse glass" To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Alan and His Brown Shirts > Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking again, > but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. > Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. > > I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, either in > jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy called > Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. > . > > Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection > > Glass overthrow. > > I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows up > quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to Jeff > that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would still > allow Jeff his fantasy. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 00:23:48 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i think jesse knows exactly how offensive the terms are. some folks just need to raise hell no matter who it hurts. to respond would give it more attention than it deserves, so we ignore it, much the same as we would ignore the bad behavior of any adolescent. beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Alan and His Brown Shirts > hi mairead: we haven't been equanimous at all; check out, in the > poetix archives, the long threads entitled first "Help!" and then > "attacks." what you are reading, about brown-shirts etc, is roun > two of a series of salvos that started in july. > > and really jesse, brown-shirts is too much, as is mention of hitler. > is this part of your continued attempt to provoke meaningful > discussion? there are better ways. those of us who identify as jews > (including of course sondheim) do not take kindly to such bad taste, > nor do many others, including, as you can see, lawrence upton and > mairead byrne. md > > At 9:18 PM -0400 9/6/02, Mairead Byrne wrote: > >Dear All, > > > >In the old days, two or three years ago, I was rapped over the knuckles > >by the then manager of Buffalo Poetics for making up frivolous names for > >Mars Bars (in the interests of bonding with our British brothers, you > >see). Given the asperity of that regime, the current equanimity in the > >face of Jesse Glass's rather hateful attacks on Alan Sondheim > >is surprising. If Alan Sondheim, whom I have never met, asked me to > >wear a brown shirt to one of his manifestations, and if I had one, I > >would do it (if it didn't look too horrible). But > >not the sort of brown shirt Jesse Glass is talking about. Oh no. Not > >at all. Kent Johnson, is that you in Jesse Glass? Come out if that's > >you! Doesn't anyone care any more? Okay, tomorrow I'm gonna post as > >many frivolous names for Mars Bars as I can come up with. Meanwhile, 3 > >cheers for Lawrence Upton. > > > >Mairead > > > >>>> sondheim@PANIX.COM 09/06/02 19:51 PM >>> > >First, no idea who Jess Harrison is; second, the fiction-of-philosophy > >list hasn't existed for several years; it was replaced by Wryting; the > >list-owner is Ryan Whyte. > > > >Alan > > > >On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, jesse glass wrote: > > > >> Having said and done my little piece I was ready to retire to lurking > >again, > >> but I found something that I'd like to bring to the list's attention. > >> Please accept my apologies for bringing up this subject again. > >> > >> I was warned back-channel against protesting Alan's over-postings, > >either in > >> jest or otherwise. Just tonight I found Jeff Harrison's little diddy > >called > >> Jesse Glass Aubade on the fiction of philosophy list. > >> . > >> > >> Jesse bobbing [ ]'s erection > >> > >> Glass overthrow. > >> > >> I don't mind Jeff's fantasy scenario as much as the title, which shows > >up > >> quite nicely in Google's search engine, thank you. I've suggested to > >Jeff > >> that he remove this posting, or at least change the title, which would > >still > >> allow Jeff his fantasy. > >> > >> I presume Jeff is a friend of Alan's and certainly did this with his > >> knowledge, as Alan also posted on the same list at about the same > >time.. > >> > >> The warning I was given was essentially that Alan's friends (with > >Alan's > >> consent) would try to bash me if I said anything, and if you go back > >to > >> their postings you'll see that many of them became quite direct--and > >quite > >> threatening-- about what I was doing: either shut up or else. Well, > >now the > >> bashing appears to be happening. Why is it when one person attempts > >to give > >> voice to what many people feel on this list, that things like this > >happen? > >> Why is it that Alan feels the need to set his "friends" loose on > >people who > > > protest (if even in jest) what he is doing? > > > > > > In my book, this is not cyber-poetry tricked out in French philosophy > >of > > > language. This is a worthless little lesson in what Hitler knew so > >well. > >> > >> Why do I deserve this? Well, the moral, I guess, is that I shouldn't > >have > >> said a thing about Alan's over-postings. And I should suffer Jeff > >> Harrison's bashing because I somehow "asked" for it. > >> > >> Let others take heed and knuckle under, or decide for yourself if Alan > >> Sondheim (with this brown-shirt friends) really should continue to run > >his > >> factory on this list for another eight years. > >> > >> Now, with everyone's leave, I would like to hand this subject over to > >some > >> of those people who have back-channeled me during the past couple of > >months. > >> If you appreciate my courage in my interventions, then please reveal > >> yourselves to this list and continue the protest. Be courageous too. > >I'm > >> sure you're more than adequate in answering bash for bash. > >> > >> As for me, the summer is winding down, and with everyone's permission, > >I > >> will return to more pressing matters. > >> > >> Jesse > >> > >> > >> Jess > >> > > > >Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > >Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > >Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > >CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Poem in Perfect Rhyme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Poem in Perfect Rhyme ading ading ading ading ^G Get Help ^ading mh rvPg/Top ^K Cut Line ^O Posading mi [END of ading mj ancel ^D Del Char ^J Attading mk Line^T To AddrBkAlan and Hisading ml 5L12 mm e "iso-8859-1" charaading ^C Cancading mn end message? Yes ading mo [Sending mail |ading Password:e people ading Last login: Thu Aug 29 14:11:57 from panix.core that i dont like ading but I ading Anyway, if you could passading Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.8 Generic February 2000t I can't ading break confidence. Some of these people have toow ..ading > cd /publish/info/english/internet_txt ading Anyway, if ading > ftp panix.comhis on - see otading Connected to panix.com. donading There's more, but ading 220-'t bading 220 panix.com FTP server (lukemftpd 1.0) ready.der ]02 12:23:12ading +0900ading it then delete (same fate probaading Name (panix.com:): sondheimthis on -beyond top of header ] ading 331 Password required for. break confidence. Some of these peading Password:toirt" itading 230-iousading NetBSD 1.5.2 (PANIX-USER) #0: We?=BF ading And why this happeading ftp> chmod 644 motter what the iniading ?Invalid commande -irring...althading byeading =3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 22:30:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: tri- In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable tri- They were there, all of them, the hordes, the mobs, the walking wounded mongers and nomads, rendezvousing with the furniture, with the past. they arrived on buses, or was it something else. I am so tired my point is sinking below the surface. I am italian and they came to the house, came to the new land, they called it a new land, it was an old land, it was new jersey, it was a strip mall, it was the XXX shop just around the corner wit= h its sticky former floors from some leftover humans. standing there on the beachhead with every form of battlement, every contrivance, every romantic noun since the renaissance, since, I begged for forgiveness, since I pleade= d for my life. standing there, as I stood by my bed, the bed I was conceive= d in, the same bed, the same sheets, the sheets that are now fifty years old, never been washed, the same cigarette burns, never been washed=8Aunmade, disturbed, wracked with centuries of neglect and the hatred of each other, the after and before, the arguments, the hair pulling and bullying, sometim= e gentle as a car wash, or a reverse decisions.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:18:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Kizershot Subject: Re: tri- In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi honey. Thinking of you often, just suddenly crazy busy. Old Naropa BA student Tim Martin called me today and mentioned that he was so impressed with your work and I told him that Lisa J was going to publish your next book and he wondered if that was the Joan of Arc one, since he saw your reading with Bhanu etc in NYC and apparently chatted with you and thought that what you had to say about that project was really amazing. so there, love, julie > From: kari edwards > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 22:30:20 -0700 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: tri- >=20 > tri- >=20 >=20 >=20 > They were there, all of them, the hordes, the mobs, the walking wounded > mongers and nomads, rendezvousing with the furniture, with the past. the= y > arrived on buses, or was it something else. I am so tired my point is > sinking below the surface. I am italian and they came to the house, came = to > the new land, they called it a new land, it was an old land, it was new > jersey, it was a strip mall, it was the XXX shop just around the corner w= ith > its sticky former floors from some leftover humans. standing there on th= e > beachhead with every form of battlement, every contrivance, every romanti= c > noun since the renaissance, since, I begged for forgiveness, since I plea= ded > for my life. standing there, as I stood by my bed, the bed I was concei= ved > in, the same bed, the same sheets, the sheets that are now fifty years ol= d, > never been washed, the same cigarette burns, never been washed=8Aunmade, > disturbed, wracked with centuries of neglect and the hatred of each othe= r, > the after and before, the arguments, the hair pulling and bullying, somet= ime > gentle as a car wash, or a reverse decisions.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:40:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allegrezza Subject: new issue of _moria_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The new issue of _moria_, a journal for experimental poetry and poetics, is now online. See it at www.moriapoetry.com. It contains poems and theory by hank lazer, michael farrell, camille martin, richard kostelanetz, amy trussell, andrew french, gregory vincent st. thomasino, stephen kirback, stephen paling, jennifer firestone, vincent stanley atkins, amit dwibedy, melanie moroz, and Üzeyir Lokman Çayci. As always, I am looking for poetry, poetry reviews, and poetic theory for the next issues. Bill Allegrezza www.moriapoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: New Orleans Bookfair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This might be of interest to publishers and book artists who are able to come to New Orleans on Saturday, October 26, for the New Orleans Bookfair. I've been to a couple of their earlier exhibits, and the group has a decidedly alternative energy, everything from books made of feathers & bones to comics to poetry presses to magazines & more. Poetry, fiction & art presses represented this year include City Lights, Lavender Ink, Skanky Possum, New Mouth from the Dirty South, and many more. AK Press and Anarchy magazine and other political presses will be there as well. Also - poetry readings in the afternoon. Here's the website: http://www.nolabookfair.com/ From the website: ******* New Orleans Bookfair A book celebration open to the public. Free. Sponsored by Babylon Lexicon Gorsky Press and Garrett Ct. Press The Intersection of Art Books, Zines and Print Publishing On the weekend of October 26, 2002, streetcars, booze, food, music, authors, poets, publishers, art book makers, zinesters, booksellers, activists and culture jammers are coming together for a weekend celebration in the heart of old New Orleans. The fair is being held in conjunction with Babylon Lexicon, an annual show of daring and perplexing artist books. It is from this foundation that the bookfair is built -- handmade print working, homemade media, friends publishing friends for friends of friends. There will be cook-outs, readings and concerts, culminating in a daylong book exposition at Barrister's Gallery on October 26, 2002. Tables are only $7.00. Over 40 different publishers from around the country will be there. Come on down and check out a book. We'll be waiting. ******* Hope to see some of you there - Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:32:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: New Orleans Bookfair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit who can pass up $7 for a table....!!!!! Camille Martin wrote: > This might be of interest to publishers and book artists who are able to > come to New Orleans on Saturday, October 26, for the New Orleans Bookfair. > I've been to a couple of their earlier exhibits, and the group has a > decidedly alternative energy, everything from books made of feathers & > bones to comics to poetry presses to magazines & more. > > Poetry, fiction & art presses represented this year include City Lights, > Lavender Ink, Skanky Possum, New Mouth from the Dirty South, and many more. > AK Press and Anarchy magazine and other political presses will be there as > well. > > Also - poetry readings in the afternoon. > > Here's the website: > > http://www.nolabookfair.com/ > > >From the website: > > ******* > > New Orleans Bookfair > > A book celebration open to the public. Free. > Sponsored by Babylon Lexicon > Gorsky Press and Garrett Ct. Press > > The Intersection of > Art Books, Zines and Print Publishing > > On the weekend of October 26, 2002, streetcars, booze, food, > music, authors, poets, publishers, art book makers, zinesters, booksellers, > activists and culture jammers are coming together for a weekend celebration > in the heart of old New Orleans. > > The fair is being held in conjunction with Babylon Lexicon, an annual show > of daring and perplexing artist books. It is from this foundation that the > bookfair is built -- handmade print working, homemade media, friends > publishing friends for friends of friends. > > There will be cook-outs, readings and concerts, culminating in a daylong > book exposition at Barrister's Gallery on October 26, 2002. Tables are only > $7.00. Over 40 different publishers from around the country will be there. > Come on down and check out a book. We'll be waiting. > > ******* > > Hope to see some of you there - > Camille > > Camille Martin > 7725 Cohn St. > New Orleans, LA 70118 > (504) 861-8832 > http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 15:49:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: in honour of alarums, of endless harm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII in honour of alarums, of endless harm oh captain, our captain, how valiant thou art, when lilacs last, when thine eyes gouged out, when blinded, how valiant, how war and thy declarations rallied the people; when thine arm was lost to cannon, thine face to ravages of sword and gun, how valiant! when thine feet were cut by brutal assassination, how valiant! nations rallied around thee, nations subservient to thee! how valiant, carry forth full the glory of promise unfulfilled! the masses, the masses, the masses, our leader, our captain, out of the cradle, endlessly rocking, thine ears imploded, the writs of suffocation, the diseases of degeneration, silent cancers and alarums, blow again trumpeter - conjure war's alarums. legless and armless, blinded, deaf, unfeeling, our captain, our valiant captain, skull churned to heroic fragment, unrecognizable, alarums, captain of nuclear weaponry, people lost to cannon, arm'd year - year of the struggle, vast crowds in protest, oh captain our valiant captain, when lilacs last in the dooryard bloomed, you were there, unable to speak, unspeakable === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 14:58:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Joins Ausonius in Bordeaux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed olive grove a mercy if on wheels tugs planted there their young the coffins the Eastern ditch . dress at home radio is a distinction from conversation the scholar's two boys close (cure your load by reading the newspaper) contentious beak lonesome as a gas station Dante the neolithic up-tight El portador gnawing only sunsets, the busdriver's contraption borrows my bared skin - on her back the arm is the jaw of your passport calf / numerous days pasted on the lefthand corner, O olive grove the vacant eye eyes a coastline's branchnet grace blossoms when the calf is killed, whilst cream and a settled third shore share their leaves as carbon paper currents prowling the steamed-up commercials shamelessly pursing & horseman's sleep escapest me to say: chief nation; war-equipment princely pledge bewail'd; THE game of collars a lay recite (too little hopeless)- encompass my works the Almighty, clotted with grizzled hair, with cash recompensed, in conference with the morrow; prosperity near and far His errand had fallen portion to our track cold streams of both nations where the iamb lies down with the lion _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 15:40:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Rationalizes Semolina Pilchards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed marked smoke a charm of the divinest scene, the lady died and I slept on profits all within me execration from earliest infancy divert voluntary irksomes your garb resembling the ground astonishing talkative as right divesting low endeavored to prime towering by the union of impetuosity and redundance bluest kiss black attainments touched with blue peculiarly classical inching along the lip of the pard, you told me there was no pressure that was 30% ago we walk at least above all in back of the fine arts flat on your tail bone momentarily located by number purely pure plutocracy in winter the pard's not alone in playing the averages hot water city I left them sleeping dogs good to have milk out of white goldenrod, September was rainy last year be dry again dozen smelly names the car runs through it light & lighght and shade phosphorus no bigger'n Hop o' my Marx tilted line of lunar Bill's Aida puma so much like Artaud limited time offer copy motive & shun result most new blew away your hollow wave, added five orders very brown and round complain still less arch close on the other side to live with more care disposition the night cycle grand re linearity hunting instead of the dream a break of blue sky style locks due crushed and complete hereafter _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:55:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: on being rejected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii rejections? not really disturbing... only mildly so when the work i sent is as good as or better than what the publishers actually went with... & then only mildly...it's too often a game of idol-worship for me to get too concerned about... bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 00:20:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Workshop announcement Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I hope this does not violate list etiquette but if you know anyone who migh= t be interested in a private workshop, please pass this message along. thanks Michael =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Poetry Workshop with Jason Schneiderman (309 West 57th Between 8th & 9th, convenient to the A,C,1,2,B,D,N,R,Q Trains) 10 Thursdays (October 10 to December 12) 6pm-8pm Enrollment limited to 10 $150 for registration before October 1st $200 for registration after October 1st. RSVP to 212.246.5074 or kafkaboy@yahoo.com This workshop will focus on peer review of poems. We will also look at contemporary American poetry from a writer=B9s perspective. All levels are welcome. Jason Schneiderman received his MFA in Poetry from NYU and has taught creative writing at NYU and Hofstra. His poems have been published in Columbia, La Petite Zine, and The Penguin Book of the Sonnet, among other places. He is the layout editor at Painted Bride Quarterly. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 00:22:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Ear Inn Readings--September 2002 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street) New York City FREE Subway--N,R/Prince; C,E/Spring; 1,2/Canal September 14, 2002 John Hoppenthaler, Gretchen Mazur, Robert Thomas, Lara Tupper September 21, 2002 David Burr, Bronwyn Mills, Margie Ann Stanko September 28, 2002 Cammy Thomas plus others to be announced For more information contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074 or earinnpoetry@nyc.rr.com or visit our Web site at http://home.nyc.rr.com/earinnreadings ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 21:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: origins of the term "avant-garde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii can anyone tell me the origin of the term "avant-garde"?? (...Burger's Theory of the Avant-Garde was checked out of the local libraries...) and I'm interested not in the sort of vague notion of it as the early twenty century movement meant to challenge the role of art in bourgeois society, but really in the term itself... thanks, Noah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 22:19:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: origins of the term "avant-garde" In-Reply-To: <20020909045222.69615.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The term itself is a military term meaning "advance guard." Which you probably already knew. But I think it was Courbet who first used it in an artistic context. As for the first specifically literary application, I don't know. Kasey on 9/8/02 9:52 PM, Noah Eli Gordon at thenamenoah@YAHOO.COM wrote: > can anyone tell me the origin of the term > "avant-garde"?? > > (...Burger's Theory of the Avant-Garde was checked out > of the local libraries...) > > and I'm interested not in the sort of vague notion of > it as the early twenty century movement meant to > challenge the role of art in bourgeois society, but > really in the term itself... > > thanks, > Noah > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 02:08:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: in honour in of honour alarums, of mourning and villainy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII in honour in of honour alarums, of mourning and villainy of endless of harm endless oh oh captain, captain, our our how how valiant valiant thou thou art, art, when when lilacs lilacs last, last, thine thine eyes eyes gouged gouged out, out, blinded, how valiant, how war and and thy thy declarations declarations when rallied people; the when people; thine arm lost was to lost cannon, to rallied cannon, the face ravages ravages sword sword gun, gun, valiant! valiant! face feet cut were by cut brutal by assassination, brutal how assassination, valiant! nations nations around around thee, thee, subservient subservient thee! thee! carry full forth the full glory glory promise promise how unfulfilled! valiant, masses, masses, leader, captain, out cradle, of endlessly the rocking, cradle, ears thine imploded, ears writs the suffocation, of diseases diseases degeneration, degeneration, silent silent cancers cancers blow again blow trumpeter again - trumpeter conjure - war's conjure alarums. war's legless legless armless, armless, deaf, deaf, unfeeling, unfeeling, skull skull churned churned heroic heroic fragment, fragment, unrecognizable, captain unrecognizable, nuclear captain weaponry, of people cannon, arm'd year year of struggle, to vast crowds crowds in protest, oh last the dooryard you bloomed, were you there, there, lilacs unable speak, unspeakable === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: origins of the term "avant-garde" In-Reply-To: <20020909045222.69615.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >can anyone tell me the origin of the term >"avant-garde"?? > >(...Burger's Theory of the Avant-Garde was checked out >of the local libraries...) > >and I'm interested not in the sort of vague notion of >it as the early twenty century movement meant to >challenge the role of art in bourgeois society, but >really in the term itself... When an army unit is proceeding somewhere in war time, it has some guys who go out in front, what are sometimes called point men. -- George Bowering Likes the number 27. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 06:01:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: FOOD FIGHT Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You know, she dribbles sunshine over trees from nipples maiming the goddess virus, the goddess virus surviving near total nuclear ice cream fudge over the hinges to Hey, fuck you, my man, this year's hardly working payments spawn shadows spun from spinning spines, cotton candy cotton candy, like gnawing fiberglass with sugar shotguns, sugar shotguns, you see, the door that flowers with light just beneath, through which we see her, standing over a bloodied Absolutely! Waiter comes back with swimming in the meat virus, the meat virus like stones from a colonoscopy or copies of his head, recently divorced from the trunks of backlit trees, zombie pastry, zombie pastry, oh my in that light we can seal up whole natural grains, ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 06:02:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: VACAT(ION Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I go to the shore with my beautiful boyfriend. There are trees, standing in big pools of friction like everything's electric at the beach. My beautiful boyfriend spreads a loving blanket over the lake for me to walk over. Teams of lack players stand waist-deep in epigraphs for the television my beautiful boyfriend shot up on funny pills. We walk over the lake hand in hand, but I'm not sure which. I look down and my wrist is sudden like a big black bird. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:05:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: humor theory MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Friends, I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat comprehensive and also readable. A psychological perspective might work well. Thanks, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:21:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: humor theory In-Reply-To: <009601c25809$f3491c40$f3dfbed0@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henri Bergson's possibly your guy. *Laughter: An Essay on the Meaning of the Comic* Hal "The thing to remember is that each time of life has its appropriate rewards, whereas when you're dead it's hard to find the light switch." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Friends, { { I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of { humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take { a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat { comprehensive and also readable. { { A psychological perspective might work well. { { Thanks, { Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: On Rejections In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick Herron writes: I Reply: I've encountered any or all of the above when sending poems to journals as well. All that I expect, though, in the case of rejection, is that they actually will send my SASE back, so I'll know that my poems are no longer under consideration. That is all that I think they must do. Interesting how often some journals don't even do that. Unless the US postal service holds my mail for some reason. (Uh-oh, they might be saying, this guy's a poet. He probably can't handle rejection. Let's just keep this letter so he'll think people like him.) One thing that does happen every once in a while, and that I think is awful, is when a journal puts subscription information in with the rejection. It's like a girl telling me, "No, I don't want to go out with you. But here's a picture of the cute boy I am going to go out with." Best, JG ------------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:51:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: humor theory In-Reply-To: <009601c25809$f3491c40$f3dfbed0@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Aaron-- I liked They Used to Call Me Snow White...but I Drifted:Women's Strategic Use of Humor by Regina Barreca. It's of course feminist in slant but she has many books about the use of humor in literature and otherwise, and is that rare thing: a totally accessible academic. Her work could be easily read by anyone. Not comprehensive by any means but very useful. Love, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:27:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Benjamin Hollander @ UMaine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THE UMAINE NEW WRITING SERIES presents the FIRST EVENTS of FALL 2002 B E N J A M I N H O L L A N D E R POETRY READING 4:30PM * THURSDAY * 12 SEPT SODERBERG AUDITORIUM TALK "RITUALS OF TRUCE & THE OTHER ISRAELI" 11AM * FRIDAY * 13 SEPT * 206 ROGERS Co-sponsor Hillel, the Foundation for Jewish Campus Life And a special SCREENING of two films selected by the poet The Marx Brothers in DUCK SOUP (1933; 70min) & Carol Reed's noir class ODD MAN OUT (1947; 115min) TUESDAY * 10 SEPT * 7PM * DPC 117 Benjamin Hollander was born in Israel and emigrated to New York City in 1958, at the age of six. He has lived in San Francisco since 1978. His books include The Book Of Who Are Was, How to Read, and Translating Tradition: Paul Celan in France (editor). For the New Writing Series, he will be reading Levinas and the Police, a long poem from a manuscript entitled Onome, a work which has been called "a detective-poem, or poem-noir, a genre unto its own." The title of Hollander's talk is drawn from two phrases which appear in different sections of Raja Shehadeh's The Third Way. Through a collage of journal fragments, personal stories, poetry, citations, dialogues, aphorisms, real emails and virtual letters, the talk will measure our responsibility in responding to the question: who can one trust to speak to in developing truce among "peoples" in the Middle East before (and after) "develop[ing] argument in order to speak" (George Oppen)? ALL EVENTS FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC * SPONSORED BY THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT AND THE NATIONAL POETRY FOUNDATION WITH SUPPORT FROM THE LLOYD H. ELLIOT FUND AND THE CULTURAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE * FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT STEVE EVANS AT 207-581-3809 * FOR DIRECTIONS, CLICK http://www.umaine.edu/locator/default.htm Assistant Professor of English Coordinator, UMaine New Writing Series Co-editor, Sagetrieb: Poetry and Poetics after Modernism 1-207-581-3809 | Steven.Evans@umit.maine.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:28:52 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Fw: Backwards, Towards.. Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable implicit malfunction: Traditional Model of Trophic Interactions target regulation, survival, competition. spiritual canvas opens.closes. THE LOWEST NEURON: Organelle Formation----->$begin$ (+*HEAD*+) Backwards, Towards..=20 (exodus of the impersonal, through) http://www.cstl.nist.gov/div836/836.05/Images/image005.gif *(NECK)* *( )* =3Dphysiognomy plate=3D ////////TARGET ENERVATION ASSEMBLY\\\\\\\\ --------88888888--------o-pine! wondering of the constant displacements = [VALHI] ---------7777777---------elements not of all gestures broken.. = [LAPPA] ---------666666-----------all the scattered ores unknown and floating = [GAZARNULLI] ----------55555------------whose violence of contrary movements = [HAYASA] -----------4444-------------which are never reconciled and never = appeased [IPUWER] ------------333--------------for who so sang that edifices sing = = [JEHU] -------------22-------------- and of what's repose, = = [KARATEPE] --------------1----------------endeavor muted to becoming = [LUGALZAGGISI] --------------1---------------and so closed a stone fist = = [MUWATALLIS] -------------22--------------pressing night upon night = [NINURTA] ------------333-------------to get them closer = [OGDOAD] -----------4444------------reader! lost god! you infinite trace! = [PULU] ----------55555-----------orpheus and osiris, dionysos dismembered all! = [QADESH] ---------666666----------workers and worked upon.. = = [RAZAMA] --------7777777---------brought close then scattered like a wreck upon = the ages [SHESHONG] -------88888888--------to make of us carved ears in a glade = = [TUSHRATTA] --------7777777---------and mouths like brooks ababbling = [ULLIKUMMI] --------666666-----------wordless rhythm of nature, tsunami and = hummingbird [VENUS] ---------55555------------distances where unknown actions = [WASSUKKANNI] ----------4444-------------attract no less than disengage = [XYLENE = RIBCAGE UNCLE] -----------333--------------for its unfurling = [YASMAKH-ADDU] ------------22--------------glass slipper, and war = = [ZANCANI MONTUORO] -------------1---------------shifting earth, horrible, exquisite = [AMORGOS] ------------22--------------exalting all alliances of contrary = = [BOUKOULOI] ------------333------------old genius of verse = [COCULLO] -----------4444-----------matter bespoken through the listening = [DAKARIS] ----------55555----------upon some transparency = = [ENORCHES] ---------666666---------quickens blossoming = [FIRMICUS MATERNUS] --------7777777--------shine there and die in a swift flowering = [GAMOS] -------88888888-------earth from blackness = = [HARMONIA] -------7777777---------a full-bodied silence = [ISOLA SACRA] --------666666----------folded through metal stamens = = [JUPITER] ---------55555-----------the message glorifies the circuitry = [KEOS] ---------4444-------------in dazzling affirmations = = [LIKNITES] ----------333--------------of impossibility's dy$.appearing = [MYSTERION] -----------22---------------and takes place all alone = = [NOMMO] ------------1----------------in the shifting holes = [OANNES] geomelikratos+anu-kumarbi=3Dde umbra transfertur ad corpus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:05:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: SPT season opener: Laynie Browne & Leslie Scalapino, this Friday Sept 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, September 13, 2002 at 7:30 pm Small Press Traffic presents a reading by Laynie Browne & Leslie Scalapino Poet, prose, and hybrid genre writer Laynie Browne has two new books this year, Acts of Levitation (Spuyten Duyvil) and Pollen Memory (Tender Buttons). A former curator at the Ear Inn in NYC and Subtext in Seattle, Browne?s work was included in Poet?s Choice, edited by Robert Hass, and she is a past winner of the Gertrude Stein Award in Innovative American Literature. Her previous books include The Rebecca Letters (Kelsey St, 1997) and The Agency of Wind (Avec, 1999), of which Rain Taxi magazine said "the surrealism is distinctly latter day." Born in 1966 and raised in Los Angeles, Browne recently moved to Oakland. A renowned language pioneer, Leslie Scalapino?s new book is It?s go/in quiet illumined grass/land, a long poem from Sausalito?s Post Apollo Press. Other recent books include The Tango (Granary Books), reprint of her novel, Defoe (Green Integer), and a poetic mystery novel, Orchid Jetsam (Tuumba). Alice Notley says of Scalapino?s latest book: "An enlightened work singing of death, physical pain, social fearfulness, and where when or whether one is. The intricate variable stanza, almost danced (like a Greek strophe) sounds one of Scalapino's favorite themes: inside and outside, the cruelty outside and the illumination also there, as in here, in space and in time. The stanza leads one through the space and time of the poem word by word. You can't stop." All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Small Press Traffic?s 2002-03 season is supported, in part, by the California Arts Council; the California College of Arts & Crafts; Community Thrift Store; Grants for the Arts/San Francisco Hotel Tax Fund; the Lane Family Charitable Trust; Poets & Writers Inc., through a grant from the James Irvine Foundation; the San Francisco Arts Commission; the Harold and Alma White Memorial Fund; the Zellerbach Family Fund; Anonymous (5); and our Members. Thank you all. Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cheryl doppler burket Subject: some poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > i liked kari's poem tri so thought i'd post a link > > http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethia/poethia_single05.html > > others can be found in Passing Through 90 Degrees, > San > Francisco State University 2000 or ordered from me > > best > > cheryl > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:25:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Arellano and Sigo at JSC this Thurs, SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Reid Gómez (415) 682-8206, beauty_unlimited@hotmail.com shameless fag and shy butch San Francisco Native and Mission Poet Cathy Arellano reading with Suquamish Poet Cedar Sigo Thursday September 12, 2002 8pm LIT @ JSC San Francisco, California?Jon Sims Center for the Arts presents Native American writers Sigo and Arellano for the first of this years acclaimed LIT @ JSC reading series. The event, curated by Reid Gómez, represents recent efforts by the JSC Diversity Artists Initiative to transform San Francisco?s literary arts scene into a complicated stomp ground for difference. Sigo was raised on the Suquamish Reservation. He studied at the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodies Poetics. His first book, Goodnight Nurse, published by Angry Dog Press, is a conversation with his cousins, ?telling them I?m a fag without shame.? For Sigo publishing is important, especially so Native writers are not ?ghettoized in Native Anthologies.? In addition to writing he also publishes the literary journal Old Gold. New to San Francisco, he is a poet of amazing depth and guiltless audacity. Of his relationship with the Suquamish language he says, ?The Earth is one word deep, that is your name.? Remember this man. Speaking about his writing he says, ?Gorgeous indelible lines present themselves to me. You can?t ignore them.? Sigo dropped out of middle school and stopped living at the Suquamish tribal housing project, and began to write his poetry. He lives without apology, ?trash,? he says, ?is the material of creators.? Arellano, the Mission?s most underrated poet, will read from her recent chapbook I Love My Women, Sometimes They Love Me. This new work pushes the edges of what Arellano?s audience has come to love and respect in her brutally honest and hilarious treatment of family life on 19th and Guerrero. She is a ?lover not a fighter,? as this collection of love poems attests to. She is true, wise and romantic. Don?t mistake her subtlety and sweetness. She?ll slip you a mickey at the 500 club after a niners night game. You can bet your paycheck on it. After completing an MFA in creative non fiction at the Iowa workshop, Cathy returned home to San Francisco, continuing her role as a community activist and historian. Equally adept in poetry, short story and non fiction Arellano?s writing stands upright with conviction. Her non fiction book, I Will Survive: Women Living with HIV, further illustrates attentiveness to her working class roots, and her uncompromising willingness to lay it on the line for the people she loves and lives beside. Admission is $7-12, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE TURNED AWAY. Q & A to follow reading. L. Frank Manriquez, Tongva Ajachmen singer, cartoonist and painter will open the evening, and Navajo author Reid Gómez will host. To schedule an interview contact Reid Gómez. For additional information about the Jon Sims Center, or the Diversity Initiative Artists Advisory Group, please contact Charles Wilmoth @ (415) 554-0402 or via e-mail at, director@jonsimsctr.org. This is an alcohol free event. Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:41:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: some poems In-Reply-To: <20020909171126.11944.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit cheryl, sure that would be great!.. could you tell me a little more how burning press works? kari on 9/9/02 10:11 AM, cheryl doppler burket at jasperwriter@YAHOO.COM wrote: >> i liked kari's poem tri so thought i'd post a link >> >> > http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethia/poethia_single05.html >> >> others can be found in Passing Through 90 Degrees, >> San >> Francisco State University 2000 or ordered from me >> >> best >> >> cheryl >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >> http://finance.yahoo.com >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:21:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cheryl doppler burket Subject: Re: some poems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi kari burning press is run by ganick, clippinger, finnegan. here i'm just posting a link of poetry for the hell of it... cb --- kari edwards wrote: > cheryl, > > sure that would be great!.. could you tell me a > little more how burning > press works? > > kari > on 9/9/02 10:11 AM, cheryl doppler burket at > jasperwriter@YAHOO.COM wrote: > > >> i liked kari's poem tri so thought i'd post a > link > >> > >> > > > http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethia/poethia_single05.html > >> > >> others can be found in Passing Through 90 > Degrees, > >> San > >> Francisco State University 2000 or ordered from > me > >> > >> best > >> > >> cheryl > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > >> http://finance.yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > http://finance.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: humor theory In-Reply-To: <009601c25809$f3491c40$f3dfbed0@belzjones1500.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:05 AM -0500 9/9/02, Aaron Belz wrote: >Friends, > >I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of >humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take >a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat >comprehensive and also readable. > >A psychological perspective might work well. > >Thanks, >Aaron freud's jokes and the unconscious is basically a love letter to jewish jokes (that is, jewish humor, not anti-semitic jokes); may be too specific for your needs but worth a look. i've never read the key texts by bergson or erasmus, but hear them referred to constantly in this regard. -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:59:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: James Kopta Memorial Concert Sunday, September 22 Comments: cc: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to pass this along, since there are many on this list who knew him and of him and of his work. Gerald > The Department of Experimental Services Presents: > > A benefit concert in memory of James Kopta > Sunday, September 22 > upstairs at Valentine's Concert Hall > Albany, New York. > > Show starts promptly at 7pm > door charge $7.00 > > Proceeds from the show will be donated to the Juvenile Diabetes > Foundation-Northeastern Chapter and used to release recordings James made > before his death. > > Performing LIVE that evening will be: > > Brown Cuts Neighbors - Final Performance > The Phlegmchuckers - 1st show in over 2 years (members of Kitty Little & > Kiss-Ups) > Small Girl Boils Water (from Syracuse - Steven Cerio ex-Railroad Jerk) > Laudanum (Detroit - Dara of BCN and His Name is Alive) > Jump Cannon > Faking Trains > Wayne Rodgers/Seth Cluett/Mike Bullock/Jason Martin > nickname: Rebel > James Lanni/Tom Burre/Benjamin Chadabe > Kamikaze Hearts > L. Collier Hyams (50 Man Machine) w/ DJ Flip 1 > Damien Catera (Con De Mek) > Jack Jastrebski > Jason Martin solo > Seth Cluett solo > Peter Barvoets - spoken word > > There will also be: > > Video shorts - some of the best Brown Cuts Neighbors shorts and excerpts > from James' performances will be shown. There will also be live video > mixing of BCN TV by David Lublin during the BCN set. > > program book - A collection of photos, memories, writings, cartoons, by, of > and about Jim. > > ---------- > > Capital District-based musician, writer and artist James R. Kopta > accidentally drowned in the Mohawk River near the Crescent Bridge on August > 9, 2002. Mr. Kopta was an integral part of the local arts and music > community for over a decade. > > Mr. Kopta was an Instrumentalist and songwriter for many Capital District > bands including Brown Cuts Neighbors, Exploding Corpse Action, Hail Mary > and Frank Budgen. An accomplished guitarist, pianist and composer, he > released several records, CDs and cassettes and performed all over the > country. He was a prime moving force behind the art and music collective > Department of Experimental Services. Video and film shorts that he > co-produced and acted in have been shown locally and internationally in > festivals and galleries. He was a sculptural welder who created his own > figurative works as well as working with artists George Rickey and Larry > Kagan. As a writer he created numerous short stories, collected in the > books "All of it's a Turkey Shoot" and "The Pipe Fitter's Companion" and > was an active researcher into areas as diverse as biochemistry and the > decoding of James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. > > ---------- > > Contact: > Marc Arsenault - Coordinator - marc@wowcool.com (518)273-8868 > > Additional contact information: > > James R. Kopta memorial website - http://wowcool.com/james > > Juvenile Diabetes Foundation-Northeastern Chapter, 6 Greenwood Drive, East > Greenbush, NY 12061 (518) 477-2873 > > Valentine's Concert Hall, 17 New Scotland Ave., Albany, NY (518) 432-6572. > > DeptEx, 51 3rd st., Troy NY, 12180. http://wowcool.com/deptex > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:08:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: humor theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

Didn't Bergson - or was it Marcuse - write on humor?  And amusingly enough, in a somewhat negative frame.  And certainly Marcel Mauss in his encyclopaedic panic must've referred to "humor" on at least several occasions . . .

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========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:36:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Reply humor theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hi there Arielle, this looks interesting. I once wrote a humourous story called "Snow white and the 7-inch dwarf" .Can you tell me more about This Regina Barecca, has she written books on comedy theory? Regards Tony Follari >From: Arielle Greenberg >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: humor theory >Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:51:51 -0700 > >Hi, Aaron-- > >I liked They Used to Call Me Snow White...but I >Drifted:Women's Strategic Use of Humor by Regina >Barreca. It's of course feminist in slant but she has >many books about the use of humor in literature and >otherwise, and is that rare thing: a totally >accessible academic. Her work could be easily read by >anyone. > >Not comprehensive by any means but very useful. > >Love, >Arielle > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >http://finance.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:40:02 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: juliana spahr Subject: chain 9 now available MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT CHAIN NO. 9: DIALOGUE Yet another good buy from CHAIN. Over 300 pages of dialogue for a mere $12! **********!! Special deal for Poetix list members: subscribe for no. 9 + no. 10 (on translation/translucinacion) for $20 and receive CHAIN 8: COMIX for a mere $5 more. **********!! CHAIN NO. 9: DIALOGUE Edited by Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr with Thalia Field and Cecilia Vicuña In the first issue of Chain we had sent out “chain letters” to some poets and asked them to write a poem and send it on to someone else and so on. In that first issue, our hope was that we would meet a whole bunch of new writers. It turned out that we were already familiar with many of the writers in those chains. This told us a lot about the tightly knit social dimensions of the poetry community. In following issues of Chain, we tried both to celebrate this and to expand it. This issue on dialogue is yet another attempt to expand the conversation. In addition to an open call for work, we commissioned a series of dialogues where we asked people who did not know each other but who had similar concerns to talk to each other. Some highlights: New York Language poet Bruce Andrews and Hawaiian Nationalist playwright Alani Apio in dialogue Philadelphia poet Tom Devaney and Manhattan poet Edwin Torres exchange email the complete and expanded dialogue between poetics list members . . . Detroit's Barrett Watten and Manhattan's Nick Piombino on the flag Scots poet Rob MacKenzie and pidgin poet Lee A. Tonouchi in dialogue plays from Washington D.C.'s Mark McMorris, Providence's Aishah Rahman, San Francisco's Tenderloin Opera Company, and Brooklyn's Mac Wellman Serbian comic Aleksander Zograf on human and animal dialogue chain dialogue: happiness (Stacy Doris, Bahaa Abu Daya, Beth Yahp, Adam Aitken) chain dialogue: english (Arnaldo Antunes & Josely Vianna Baptista, Dubravka Djuric, Francisco Faria, Martin Larsen, Robert Sullivan, Heriberto Yepez) and much, much more . . . website highlights (http://www.temple.edu/chain): Editors' Note and Contents Ademir Assunção & Kaká Werá Jecupé, Words of A Moon-Man (http://www.temple.edu/chain/assuncaojecupe.htm) Aishah Rahmen, If Only We Knew (http://www.temple.edu/chain/rahman.htm) chain dialogue on happiness (http://www.temple.edu/chain/happiness.htm) audio additional (http://www.temple.edu/chain/audioadditional.htm) the audio files of the complete Craigie Horsfield and Cecilica Vicuña dialogue Michael Ives, Ye Shall Receive (An Elegy to the Near 90s) (coming soon) José Pérez de Arce, three poems Jane Philbrick, Common Prayer (Bill has promised to load this in the next couple of days) **********!! our new immediate gratification program... download all of Chain 9 in pdf for a mere $10! http://www.temple.edu/chain/9_pdf.htm ***********!! The continued existence of Chain is dependent on subscriptions and contributions. Please donate and/or subscribe! order from SPD http://www.pub24X7.com/scripts/rgw.dll/rblive/BOOKS:SingleProduct,this.Create(1930068174 SPD writes . . . The ninth edition of this highly esteemed journal of experimental poetry and poetics focuses on "Dialogues." While CHAIN has always encouraged the "dialogue" inherent in cross-genre work and collaboration, issue #9 makes that interest overt, with both fascinating and radical results. Includes dialogues between Bruce Andrews & Alani Apio, Tom Devaney & Edwin Torres, Peter Gizzi & Elizabeth Willis, Craigie Horsfield & Cecilia Vicuna, Reynaldo Jimenez & Jussara Salazar, Bob Perelman & Francie Shaw, Nick Piombino & Barrett Watten, and many, many others. An essential journal for anyone interested in contemporary innovative writing. or order direct: If you want to pay by credit card, please order by the single issue from Small Press Distribution. To subscribe by check, please print out this page, fill out the form below, and send to: Chain c/o Jena Osman English Department Temple University 10th Floor, Anderson Hall (022-29) 1114 West Berks Street Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090 Please make your check out to Chain Arts. We do not charge extra for overseas orders. But we can only accept checks in U.S. $ or cash (of any currency--send at your own risk). ______ $20 for two issues, starting with issue no. ___. ______ I subscribed for two issues, please send me 8: COMIX for $5. ______ $12 for Chain 9, dialogues. ______ $12 for Chain 8, comics. ______ $12 for Chain 7, memoir/anti-memoir. ______ $12 for Chain 6, letters. ______ $12 for Chain 5, different languages. $______ donation to keep Chain going. Name: _______________________________________ Address: _______________________________________ _______________________________________ _______________________________________ _______________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:43:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Reply to humor theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Aaron, this caught my eye. As far as I know,not much has been written on humour theory,but I can tell you what you need to know,as I have written and published 4 Comedy books and over 1000 jokes. I'm a Comedian in New Zealand.Feel free to ask me some theoretical questions if you wish. Regards Tony Follari NZ Comedian/Artist/Poet >From: Aaron Belz >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: humor theory >Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:05:27 -0500 > >Friends, > >I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of >humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take >a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat >comprehensive and also readable. > >A psychological perspective might work well. > >Thanks, >Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:05:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: job announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF ENGLISH: CREATIVE WRITING/POETRY. Colorado State University. Nine-month, tenure-track appointment to begin August 15, 2003. Requirements: M.F.A. or terminal degree, promising record of teaching, at least one book and substantial publications. International poetry and community outreach interest and experience would enhance application. Send vitae, letter of interest, writing sample (book or selection of roughly 50 pages), dossier which includes evidence of strengths in teaching and creative writing, and three letters of reference to Professor Steven Schwartz, Chair, Creative Writing/Poetry Search Committee, Department of English, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523-1773. This is an “open search”: once the search committee has identified semi-finalists, departmental faculty will have access to those files. Applications will be considered until the position is filled; however, for full consideration, applications must be postmarked by November 15, 2002. Routine inquiries to Sue.Russell@colostate.edu. For a complete position description, visit the department web site at www.colostate.edu/Depts/English. CSU is an EEO/AA employer. EO office is 101 Student Services. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:21:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tony, I wish you would post some of your jokes to the list. Everyone else, thanks a lot; I ended up going with the Freud and the Bergson, complimented by Peter Berger's Redeeming Laughter and some books specific to 19th-century American humor, which is what i'm focusing on at the moment. It is a delight to do this work. For instance, here is a bit from Josh Billings (nee Henry Wheeler Shaw, 1818-1885)-- PASHUNCE OV JOB. Evryboddy iz in the habit of bragging on Job, and Job did hav konsiderable bile pashunce, that's a fac, but did he ever keep a distrik skule for 8 dollars a month, and borde 'round? Did he ever reap lodged oats down hill in a hot da, and hav all hiz gallus buttons bust oph at once? Did he ever hav the jumpin teethake, and be made tu tend baby while hiz wife was over tu Perkinses tu a teasquall? Did he ever git up in the morning awful fri and turf it 3 miles befoar brekfast tu git a drink, and find that the man kep a tempranse hous? Did he ever undertaik tu milk a kicking hefer with a bushy tail, in fli time, out in the lot? Did he ever sot down onto a litter ov kittens in the old rockin cheer, with hiz summer pantyloons on without saying "damnashun!" If he cud du all theze things, and praze the Lord at the same time, all I hav got tu sa, iz, BULLY FOR JOB! From _Josh Billings, Hiz Sayings_ (NY: Carleton, 1866) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory In-Reply-To: <00de01c2583e$84071af0$196686a5@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aaron, I don't know any jokes. Every so often Patrick Herron tells me that my poems are "really funny" but I don't know if he means they're funny-good or funny-bad. I don't believe in funny-bad (unless you count Jim Carrey) so I assume he means the former. Punchline: So the Pope leans back, puts his feet up on the table, reaches into his robe, lights a cigar, takes a drag and says "You fuckers are all right." I forgot the lead-in... Tony > Tony, > I wish you would post some of your jokes to the > list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory In-Reply-To: <00de01c2583e$84071af0$196686a5@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Blair at the Univ. of Chicago specialized in American humor and wrote a book called (you guessed it) *American Humor*. I haven't seen it in years, and don't know if it's still around. He had a pretty fair sense of humor himself. I tried to ask him a question in class once, and he said, "Mr. Johnson, *I* ask the questions here." And someone once asked him what he thought of Philip Roth's then new novel called *Letting Go* (a roman a cle having to do with academic life in and around UC), and he responded, "Well, I think of it as *The Gripes of Roth*. Hal "The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." --Casey Stengel Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Everyone else, thanks a lot; I ended up going with the Freud and the { Bergson, complimented by Peter Berger's Redeeming Laughter and some books { specific to 19th-century American humor, which is what i'm focusing on at { the { moment. It is a delight to do this work. For instance, here is a bit from { Josh Billings (nee Henry Wheeler Shaw, 1818-1885)-- { { { PASHUNCE OV JOB. { { Evryboddy iz in the habit of bragging on Job, and Job did hav konsiderable { bile pashunce, that's a fac, but did he ever keep a distrik skule for 8 { dollars a month, and borde 'round? Did he ever reap lodged oats down hill { in a hot da, and hav all hiz gallus buttons bust oph at once? Did he ever { hav the jumpin teethake, and be made tu tend baby while hiz wife was over tu { Perkinses tu a teasquall? Did he ever git up in the morning awful fri and { turf it 3 miles befoar brekfast tu git a drink, and find that the man kep a { tempranse hous? Did he ever undertaik tu milk a kicking hefer with a bushy { tail, in fli time, out in the lot? Did he ever sot down onto a litter ov { kittens in the old rockin cheer, with hiz summer pantyloons on without { saying "damnashun!" If he cud du all theze things, and praze the Lord at { the same time, all I hav got tu sa, iz, BULLY FOR JOB! { { { { From _Josh Billings, Hiz Sayings_ (NY: Carleton, 1866) { ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:08:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > And someone once asked him what he thought of Philip Roth's > then new novel called *Letting Go* (a roman a cle having to > do with academic life in and around UC), and he responded, > "Well, I think of it as *The Gripes of Roth*. > It's good to know he kept abreast of contemporary authors. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:34:53 +0930 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Bolton Subject: Re: origins of the term "avant-garde" In-Reply-To: <20020909045222.69615.qmail@web14808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Saint-Simon is often credited wirth the first use: saying (in French) that "the arts will march in the very van with Science & Politics" in some imminent future. Cheers KB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:46:31 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: humour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't have the reference handy but another writer on humour is the great folklorist V. A. Propp. I believe one of his later books was devoted to humour and laughter. give me a day. also, i think bakhtin writes about this too. I know he calls laughter the surplus of humanity in the epic and the novel in the dialogic imagination. cheers, kevin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:00:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It may it be spoken of if even in whispers forever above talk, or is talk what's left endless talk as dust settles or refuses to settle may we write about, compare it to anything, may it be explained by clouds of billowing talk, from every angle and direction, from every point of view may it be whispered about stirring dust that should not be stirred, that refuses to settle, should not be stirred by us, is talk what's left us, to maybe settle or refuse to settle may we please talk or refuse to talk about it, refuse to explain or ever settle, a dust that is and is never ours --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Re: some poems Comments: cc: jasperwriter@yahoo.com, terra1@sonic.net In-Reply-To: <20020909182157.26636.qmail@web12808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To clarify: Burning Press is run by luigi-bob drake. Cheryl posted a reference to a single-author issue of Poethia (edited by Peter Ganick, Annabelle Clippinger, & James Finnegan), which is one of the e-zines collected and archived as part of the Burning Press project CybpherAntholog= y of Discontiguous Literatures. This online anthology also includes the complete texts of e-zines: * Jake Berry's The Experioddicist; * Juxta Online edited by Ken Harris & Jim Leftwich; * Tom Taylor's Anabasis, * Peter Ganick's Potepoetzine and Potepoettext * RIF/T, edited by Loss Peqe=F1o Glazier and Kenneth Sherwood. * Glossolalia, resurrected from the archives by editor J. Lehmus. More information is available at http://www.burningpress.org/va/ Burning Press has also done a number of other web-based projects, as well a= s print books & serials (TapRoot Reviews, TapRoot magazine, _A Wild Salience: The Writing of Rae Armantrout_, and poetry books by Mike Basinski, Mark DuCharme, Dean Taciuch, and Nico Vassilakis among many others...) despite evidence to the contrary, we have retired... allbests, lbd on 9/9/02 2:21 PM, cheryl doppler burket at jasperwriter@YAHOO.COM wrote: > hi kari >=20 > burning press is run by ganick, clippinger, finnegan. > here i'm just posting a link of poetry for the hell of > it... >=20 > cb >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- kari edwards wrote: >> cheryl, >>=20 >> sure that would be great!.. could you tell me a >> little more how burning >> press works? >>=20 >> kari >> on 9/9/02 10:11 AM, cheryl doppler burket at >> jasperwriter@YAHOO.COM wrote: >>=20 >>>> i liked kari's poem tri so thought i'd post a >> link >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 > http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethia/poethia_single05.html >>>>=20 >>>> others can be found in Passing Through 90 >> Degrees, >>>> San >>>> Francisco State University 2000 or ordered from >> me >>>>=20 >>>> best >>>>=20 >>>> cheryl >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >> __________________________________________________ >>>> Do You Yahoo!? >>>> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >>>> http://finance.yahoo.com >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes >>> http://finance.yahoo.com >>>=20 >=20 >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 01:49:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: St. George Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL (in Staten Island, New York) SEPTEMBER 21ST NOON TO MIDNIGHT www.saintgeorgepoetryfestival.com The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an all-day celebration of poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring together several generations of poets from all across the country to read in a festival atmosphere from Noon until Midnight. Readings will be interspersed with screenings of experimental films inspired by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. Presses and literary magazines will feature works by the participants, and food and alcohol will be available. The St. George Theatre is one of the city’s forgotten treasures -- a beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a vaudeville house and closed for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival is a benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a not-for-profit. 3 MINUTE WALK FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL POETRY BY Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret Caples Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey Robert Kelly Caroline Knox Noelle Kocot Katie Lederer Frank Lima John Lowther Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson D.A. Powell Randy Prunty Peter Richards Elena Rivera Matthew Rohrer Mark Schafer David Shapiro Dale Smith Rick Snyder Laura Solomon James Tate Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre Dara Wier Elizabeth Willis John Yau Matthew Zapruder MUSIC BY JOE PERNICE / NEW RADIANT STORM KING / THE FIGMENTS DOINGGGGG!!!!! a short sound play to be performed by Rob Casper, Matthea Harvey, Aimee Kelley, Gillian Kiley, Brett Lauer, A. E. Wayne, and Sam White POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, 811 Books, Aufgabe, Baffling Combustions, Both, Cello Entry, Conduit, Crowd, Fence, Four Way Books, Granary Books, Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left Hand Books, Open City, Radical Society, Skanky Possum, Slope, Soft Skull, Tender Buttons, Verse Press, Zephyr Press, etc. RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets SHORT FILMS done in collaboration with poets WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon READINGS for children $15 for all day admission ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:29:04 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: One more on names in poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's a marvellous phrase "an actual earth of value"... I experienced this "un-understanding " reading Olson eg some things he wrote when on a tour and what happens that slowly one kinds of "digs" it what I've read of the creeley olson letters I found fascinating: it took me a long while to get "into" Olson as i came late into poetry and knew only Eliot in 1963 (I was 15 then) and I thought he was English in fact i think what I knew of pound via C K Stead was that he was english... .but a book i got a while ago and which helped me in my re-beginning to write poetry again was titled "creative writing" now it was by an English writer and I found it excellent: but one of the things he emphasised was the power and significance of names and naming: without recousre to Olson but Olson is right....it is a fact that we as living things alone need to orientate ourselves in time and space and thus we name, we remember; we are...this is the ontology the phenomenology of Olson..when if ever does one (you/I) use one's own name or another's or a fictitious name? That he feels it is "permanently duplicating" is strange but there is a "mystical element" to Olson. I never used LSD but I think I know what he means by "total experience" which is the thing attempted even in modernist works and these ideas or techniques "lead into" the postmodernist. How did people respond to Ginsberg's honesty?! It is typically vague of Olson. in fact what he says there (if it is verbatim or closs) is rather like a poem it just successfully resists understanding. I have a poem coming out soon in a local mag which in fact was one of those things i wrote as a kind of "exercise" idont know what it was about: but theeditr assures me he understands in completely! I think that he understands its signification and musicality not its "message" per se...I had my cockroach saying that " I always look up the meaning of my poems after i've written them" "Editor just smiled secretly...." Actually I've been at readings when I;ve been the subject of a poem! And not realised it being pissed as a newt til the ext day but just hearing one's name is kind of "thrilling" - the ego despite theories etc is all powerful.... The power and the wonder and the glory of names... And so on Richard Taylor (Aotearoa) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Safdie Joseph" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: One more on names in poems > Olson wrote, in "Place; & Names" > > the crucialness being that these places or names > be as parts of the body, common, & capable > therefore of having cells which can decant > total experience--no selection > other than one which is capable > of this commonness (permanently > duplicating) will work > > He read it aloud on stage with Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg and Whalen at the > Univesity of British Columbia Poetry Conference, 29 July 1963, upon which > Allen said "I don't understand what you're saying." > > I realize there are a few folks on this list for whom Olson isn't important, > but I note the enthusiasm -- I was only ten in 1963, but before that decade > was over Carlos Castenada and LSD had shown me a little of that world of > "total experience" -- what he calls earlier in the poem the "Isness of > Cosmos" -- that feeling may only be transmissable, in poetry, through such > "factors of naming" -- a literal concrete, an actual earth of value . . . > > We're a few miles down the road from the abstract French lyric, here. > > Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:39:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: someone with two fingers In-Reply-To: <006701c25871$d5bedf80$73e236d2@01397384> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable someone with two fingers the price tag was missing, down the drain in the sewer with swashbuckling crossdressed disaster relief . . . maybe if I scan the periodic table, mayb= e I=B9ll get a revitalized affect, create a longing that could, in effect, open portals in my subbasement, allowing blocked passages in the text to flow. just then I slipped behind the insurrection of a well lubricated scapula . . . and instead of the usually discreet tickle, a tsunami raged through my mobius strip, flooding atolls, rupturing main valves and three turbines. information came rushing in at a random rate of carbonation, a dog barked three times and news from my newly completed neuron subdivisions developed = a flat zone. beige crawled into a purple hued aroma. a score of tiny head shaking voices, smaller than the usual subdialectic emanate from a crowd that has gathered in my ego, though I can not hear them, I know what I want them to say . . . =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:11:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Upcoming Events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'll be doing a few readings in late September/early October to promote my new collection of poems _Cosmopolitan Tremble_ (see link below). If you're in the vicinity of any of these, please stop by. And I'm sorry if you receive this message more than once. --Mark DuCharme . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 13TH, 8:00 p.m. Reading (with Patrick Pritchett) Left Hand Reading Series Left Hand Books & Records, 1200 Pearl #10, Boulder, CO A donation is requested. FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 27TH, 7:30 p.m. Reading (with Brandon Downing) Small Press Traffic Timken Lecture Hall, California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco, CA (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Admission $5-10, sliding scale SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29TH, 5:00 p.m. Talk: "Radical Lyricality" (tentative title) Canessa Park 708 Montgomery Street (@ Columbus), San Francisco, CA Admission $5 MONDAY, OCTOBER 7TH, 8 p.m. Reading (with Amy Catanzano) Penny Lane 1795 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO Donation $3.00 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:18:15 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Chutes and Ladders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in memory of Karelton Fyfe Twisted towers fall Chutes and ladders You were turned into A view from a bridge Look at that them Diagrams from the news You Mad Hatter far Gone turned in two Hat truss into tatters Into One tower burned Trading towers long Hours it's all true Some say it matters Twisted towers all of Them fall Down Karleton Fyfe, 31, was on his way to Los Angeles when his flight was hijacked and crashed into the World Trade Center. He was a 1992 Philosophy graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. A friend said of him, "My guess is that if he'd been watching Tuesday's events on TV at home, rather than sitting on a plane bound for Los Angeles, he would have summed everything up with a vintage understatement: 'Man, whoever did all this ... they're gonna have to give back a lot of those humanitarian awards.'" Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 04:49:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: among MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII among something moved on it or something flooded dark waves of shapes or they were changed the stars far too bright brightened behind the sparklings the waves of sparklings among or between the stars repetitions across the surfaces moving and repeating within the surfaces among veering horizons and collisions within the fragility of things circulating momentarily within them the pulling everything among them fields of safety among waves and particles the sky changed or something spewed or something flooded dark waves of shapes they moved they changed or they were changed the stars far too bright brightened behind the sparklings the waves of sparklings among or between the stars repetitions across the surfaces moving and repeating within the surfaces within the fragility of things circulating momentarily within them always within and always without the pulling everything among them among waves and particles among fields or something flooded dark waves of shapes or they were changed the stars far too bright brightened behind the sparklings the waves of sparklings among or between the stars repetitions across the surfaces moving and repeating within the surfaces among veering horizons and collisions within the fragility of things circulating momentarily within them the pulling everything among them among fields accountancy after and before something moved on it brilliant sparkling things or something flooded they moved or they were changed the stars far too bright among veering horizons and collisions within the fragility of things circulating momentarily within them always within and always without among appearances and disappearances the pulling everything among them accountancy after and before joy numinous accountancy within something moved on it the sky changed brilliant sparkling things or something flooded dark waves of shapes or they were changed the stars far too bright brightened behind the sparklings in or against the sky among or between the stars repetitions across the surfaces always within and always without the pulling everything among them joy numinous accountancy within it turned or it was turning it turned or it was turning === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:16:00 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: poem Breaking the Two Post Barrier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim I love this: there's a lot of poetry coming on and I havent been able to look at other works, or as many works and links as are put on - and its good that there is more poetry coming on line here as well as some interesting discussions; i think that maye Alan's "example" ...after all if he puts his stuff online I thought why shouldnt I? ...we shouldnt be afeared of crit. either: but I'd rather be positive... but I had time for this....I like the idea of poems that continue with kind of "theme" or repeated theme or word...and the dust is or could be the endless ramifications of talk: tak every where: and or theis coulfd be just "assemblage' of words but whatever I enjoyed it. Richard. _________________________________________________________ Tony. I got your joke but I was scared your atachment might have a virus (although I suppose I could save to disc then scan it so I deleted it) but I appreciate the guesture and I extend my handshake thru cyber space: you know you can cut then paste things on to the email. try that.eg jack Ross oesnt like attachments....Give me a bell sometime: or a brrrp brrp...cheers, Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:00 PM Subject: poem > It > > may it be spoken of if even in whispers > forever above talk, or is talk what's left > endless talk as dust settles or refuses to > settle > > may we write about, compare it > to anything, may it be explained by clouds > of billowing talk, from every angle and > direction, from every point of view > > may it be whispered about stirring dust > that should not be stirred, that refuses > to settle, should not be stirred by us, is > talk what's left us, to maybe settle or > refuse to settle > > may we please talk or > refuse to talk about it, refuse to explain > or ever settle, a dust that is and is never > ours > > > --Jim Behrle > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:49:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron. Did you read Ragtime? By Doctorow...That's a hoot. he put Freud in it and there are a lot of very funny scenes: but a humourless writer is surely useless. But I have a mate who is mechanic and the only thing he can laugh at are things that are basically other's misfortunes a habit he picked up from his ex wife i think. But some people seem to be unable to see any humour: which is a worry. I dont know why people find Beckett dark etc I find him very very funny: the first time ewas when i saw "waaiting for Godot" now I think from memory (this was in the sixties) it was played here in French and people laughed all the way through: os did I. Iknew very little about Beckett then, if I'd even heard of him and had no idea what it was all about but I still think its very funny.....my father used to take me to plays...we also saw Pygmalion and Hamlet: now in that when the Yorick scene started every one started to laugh at each part but the actors to their credit just kept on with the play (i think it was a touring English Shak. company).... and indeed it is rather ridiculously littered with bodies: I also read "Endgame" which is one of the funnies things I've read: the blind guy everlastingly orienting himself in some theoretical centre and the parents or grandparents are in rubbish bins and the guy who is mobile is told to:"Push the drivellers down! Accursed progenitors!.." And Watt by Beckett when he describes a family with hundreds of relatives each with endless disorders and illnesses and complaints had me rolling around on the floor I thought I wouldnt be able to get a breath!!!!" I find Beckett the funniest...as funny if not more so than Spike Milligan. Joyce can be comic ( a friend of mine who went to Oxford and hates "postmodernism" or even modernism I think) is convinced that Finnegan's Wake is a huge joke set by him: and enormous "fuck you!" he left for the academics and so on to grovel over and go mad trying to "decipher" ...wasnt the point of Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" that the Church tried to supress humour? The best can be or is funny.... Because if y' laugh the 'ole worl 'll laff wiv u an if u crie de 'ole worl jess shets on ya..an ya stay alone... Dante's big poem was called The Divine Comedy, no? READ ON THERE'S MORE! > moment. It is a delight to do this work. For instance, here is a bit from > Josh Billings (nee Henry Wheeler Shaw, 1818-1885)-- > > > PASHUNCE OV JOB. > > Evryboddy iz in the habit of bragging on Job, and Job did hav konsiderable > bile pashunce, that's a fac, but did he ever keep a distrik skule for 8 > dollars a month, and borde 'round? Did he ever reap lodged oats down hill > in a hot da, and hav all hiz gallus buttons bust oph at once? Did he ever > hav the jumpin teethake, and be made tu tend baby while hiz wife was over tu > Perkinses tu a teasquall? Did he ever git up in the morning awful fri and > turf it 3 miles befoar brekfast tu git a drink, and find that the man kep a > tempranse hous? Did he ever undertaik tu milk a kicking hefer with a bushy > tail, in fli time, out in the lot? Did he ever sot down onto a litter ov > kittens in the old rockin cheer, with hiz summer pantyloons on without > saying "damnashun!" If he cud du all theze things, and praze the Lord at > the same time, all I hav got tu sa, iz, BULLY FOR JOB! > This is very funny. Richard. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 04:38:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: HERO Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii George W. Bush leaned into his two-way SuperFriends ring. He knew he'd have to get back-up for this one; the Axis of Evil had is gray again, another overcast morning, and I wake later than usual. Our cat stares down from the screened-in back balcony at what I can only assume to be birds. She licks enemies of Freedom have taken the oil!" he screamed into the transmitter. "In about three seconds, no-one in America will be able to start their cars!" Dynaman frowned. "What tired slightly, eyes still gummed by sleep and blurry. Our neighbors crawl wearily into their cars. The sun shivers, and pulls clouds closer. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:10:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: origins of the term "avant-garde" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 8:34 AM +0930 9/10/02, Ken Bolton wrote: >Saint-Simon is often credited wirth the first use: saying (in French) >that "the arts will march in the very van with Science & Politics" in >some imminent future. > >Cheers >KB year, pls? thanks for the fun factoid. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 05:46:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: A TREE Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bloom finger, from the bottom joint toward, with fat water between to ripple cleavage. Spores with green red, a reddish green savor. The fringe gripping onyx sightings. And bends like a dance, which washing in bird salutes, like an older woman's hair. Pumping licorice from one end of once to upon a time. Reading in the cut. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { > And someone once asked him what he thought of Philip Roth's { > then new novel called *Letting Go* (a roman a cle having to { > do with academic life in and around UC), and he responded, { > "Well, I think of it as *The Gripes of Roth*. { > { It's good to know he kept abreast of contemporary authors. { { Gwyn Punishing your friends in public, eh? Hal "Way down the deserted street, I thought I saw a bus which, with luck, might get me out of this sentence . . . " --Rosmarie Waldrop Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:11:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: tales of the avant-garde In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.2.20020907094323.00b12f98@mail.wayne.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A little contribution to the recent talk about the notion of the _avant-garde_: There's more than just a metaphorical connection between the military and artistic use of the term, it would seem. Picasso famously said to Gertrude Stein, as they were watching camouflaged trucks parade through Paris in 1915, that it was the Cubists who had invented camouflage (a major avant-gardish invention of that war). An interesting quip, maybe, and one could see indeed how a certain distortion of space is common to both phenomena. As it turns out (& is documented by Stephen Kern in his book _The Culture of Time & Space 1880-1918_)the connection is in fact much more than metaphorical: the inventor of camouflage, one Guirand de Scévola, knew the work of Picasso and is quoted as saying: "In order to totally deform objects, I employed the means Cubists used to represent them -- later this permitted me, without giving reasons, to hire in my [camouflage] section some painters, who, because of their very special vision, had an aptitude for denaturing any kind of form whatsoever." Stein, though she did not know of de Scévola, said in her "Picasso" that the composition of the 1914/1918 war was "in fact the composition of cubism." Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:17:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: tales of the avant-garde In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 9/10/02 7:11 AM, Pierre Joris at joris@ALBANY.EDU wrote: > [Gretrude] Stein, though she did not know of de Sc=E9vola, said > in her "Picasso" that the composition of the 1914/1918 war was "in fact t= he > composition of cubism." Ah, the old aestheticization of politics routine! Didn't GS have fascistic leanings? (Supporting Petain, I believe?) GS also claimed that an oil droplet in water was more beautiful than all th= e paintings in the world. (I am paraphrasing - perhaps egregiously.) In that case, she might have declared the Exxon Valdez oil spill a masterpiece. Somebody should wrench GS away from the feminists and give her writing a long, serious political reading. Then again, one might not like what one finds. m (Giving new meaning to the "cheap" in "cheap shot" . . .) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:22:16 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: tales of the avant-garde Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

Cheap shot maybe, but, like they say, when the shots turn cheap, the cheap turn pro.  Short, terrific, and to an excellent point, your post.  Kiss kiss.

> [Gretrude] Stein, though she did not know of de Scévola, said
> in her "Picasso" that the composition of the 1914/1918 war was "in fact the
> composition of cubism."
Ah, the old aestheticization of politics routine! Didn't GS have fascistic
leanings? (Supporting Petain, I believe?)
GS also claimed that an oil droplet in water was more beautiful than all the
paintings in the world. (I am paraphrasing - perhaps egregiously.) In that
case, she might have declared the Exxon Valdez oil spill a masterpiece.
Somebody should wrench GS away from the feminists and give her writing a
long, serious political reading. Then again, one might not like what one
finds.
m
(Giving new meaning to the "cheap" in "cheap shot" . . .)


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========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:35:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets Comments: cc: cadaly@pacbell.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated with various poets or being characterized as having a sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not attend school in Iowa. Best regards, Kit robinsonkit@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:17:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Jackson Mac Low 80th Birthday Celebration In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jackson Mac Low 80th Birthday Celebration Wednesday September 18, 2002 7:30 pm The Poetry Project St. Mark's Church 10th Street & Second Avenue New York, NY 212/674-0910 Suggested admission $10/$7 Seniors-Students/$5 Members Readings & Performances by Jane Augustine David Behrman Mei-mei Berssenbrugge Andrew Bolotowsky Ray DiPalma Elaine Equi Richard Foreman Ed Friedman Jon Gibson Daniel Goode Michael Heller Mitch Highfill Mary Hurlbut Kenneth King Alison Knowles Andrew Levy Clarinda Mac Low Jackson Mac Low Kimberly Lyons Bernadette Mayer Maureen Owen Nick Piombino Joan Retallack Jerome Rothenberg Douglas Rothschild Jerome Sala Carolee Schneemann James Sherry Theresa Salomon Anne Tardos Lewis Warsh and special guests (Please note the earlier start time of 7:30pm) Coming soon: Jackson Mac Low's Doings: Assorted Performance Pieces 1955-2002 $50, Granary Books details @ www.granarybooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:54:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: We're Through MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We're Through The and tunnels out leading of in New and York out will of be New bombed. York The will tunnels be leading bombed. in A A small small nuclear nuclear warhead warhead detonate detonate Jerusalem. Jerusalem. An Israeli An fighter Israeli crash will Mecca. in Many many planes bombs many fall bombs on fall off on target. off planes target. and "Targets" will disappear as as earth earth is is pounded pounded into into annihilation. annihilation. "Targets" Brooklyn, York, York, be leveled a by thermonuclear a device. thermonuclear Brooklyn, device. New Neither cockroaches cockroaches nor nor silverfish silverfish will survive the the coming coming maelstrom. maelstrom. Neither Manhattan Montreal and isolated be islands. isolated Major race race riots riots will break out across the planet. Major Arms be legs off hacked will writing Arms banished. will electrodes to applied of to men sensitive and areas women. men electrodes women. be blinded as not world lead goes world blinded goes will silent not with lead cries. the holocaust last last earth upon holocaust us. of United States The attack States Medina. will Anti-Arab Jewish Jewish will occur major major cities. European Anti-Arab cities. and Pakistan will drop a Kashmir. Pakistan Ka'ba Ka'ba destroyed destroyed holocaust. holocaust. Washington C. D. will C. be annihilated a weapon. D. Nuclear up powerplants and up down down Hudson Hudson be detonated. powerplants North fire Korea nuclear fire at missiles Osaka, at and Seoul, Tokyo. Osaka, North Tokyo. will Pakistan. United Middle-Eastern telecommunications systems Middle-Eastern hit. will Saudi Arabia Saudi Israel attack Iraq. and Mali will Sudan destroyed living and creature. Sudan annihilate States Baghdad. will Dirty Dirty Egypt Egypt Syria. Syria. City Street Wall area Street will area be gassed. New Parts Angeles Los be Angeles destroyed dirty of bomb. Los Golden be Gate hit Bridge by hit with an The aircraft Golden explosives. Bridge West and Bank Mosque Mosque Omar Omar be obliterated. West Explosives Explosives level level Vatican Vatican ground. ground. ground. === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:07:57 -0400 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: WHITE BOX From: Poetics List Administration Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: SIX FEET UNDER - WHITE BOX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; X-MAC-TYPE=54455854; X-MAC-CREATOR=4D4F5353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WHITE BOX presents Guggenheimlichkeit SIX FEET UNDER summer series 2002 opening reception: Wednesday, September 11 ï 6-8PM RADIO-ACTIVE by AYREEN ANASTAS + RENE GABRI White Box serves as the interface to a radio station with programming related to or engaged with 11 September, with responses by figures both within and outside the artistic and cultural community. Radio-Active website Curated by TANYA LEIGHTON through September 18 WHITE BOX 525 WEST 26TH STREET NEW YORK, NY 10001 WWW.WHITEBOXNY.ORG / TEL 212.714.2347 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:05:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: new at dcpoetry.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello all, new at http://www.dcpoetry.com contributions to the anthology 2002: * rae armantrout - three poems * charles bernstein - photo opportunity * andy fogle - four poems * lorraine graham - untitled * juliana spahr - alphabet poem * terence winch - from _lit from below_ history project: * bibliographies of some DC small presses * interviews and essays from the recently-defunct _washington review_ tentative reading schedules for the fall season * beth joselow, doug lang, benard welt et al. 9/12 * bruce andrews and jules boykoff 9/14 * bob perelman and rod smith 9/15 * anselm berrigan and jean donnelly book launch 9/22 * _anomaly_ journal launch 10/6 thanks as always to jerrold shiroma and duration press for webhosting. enjoy, tom orange ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: Lytle Shaw From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Announcing Shark #4, Please Forward MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing the publication of Shark #4: The Encyclopedic, eds. Lytle Shaw and Emilie Clark 261 Pages: Jimbo Blachly, Olivier Brossard, Matthew Buckingham, Paul Chan, Andrew Clark, Brandon Downing, Rob Fitterman, Lohren Green, Yun-Fei Ji, Nina Katchadourian, Matt King, Tan Lin, Linnaeus, Pamela Lu, Bernadette Mayer, Scott McCarney, Ange Mlinko, John Morris, Tue Andersen Nexo, Novalis, Redel= l Olsen, Lisa Oppenheim, Pliny the Elder, Michael Scharf, Jovi Schnell, Christian Schumann, Juliana Spahr, Brian Kim Stefans, Heriberto Yepez Please join us for a reception at the Shark Offices, Saturday, September 21, 4-6pm 74 Varick Street #203 New York, NY 10013 212 226 5075 Shark is also available by mail from us at the same address. Issue #4 is $10; a two-issue subscription is $18. North American subscriptions outside the US, please add $3. Other foreign subscriptions, add $5. Please make checks payable to Lytle Shaw or Emilie Clark. Contents Essays:=20 Tue Andersen Nexo, "Words, Worlds and Procedural Form: Klauz Hoeck and Inge= r Christensen" Matthew Buckingham, "Twogether Beside Himself: More Details from an Imaginary World" on Matt Mullican Rob Fitterman, "A Dumb Conundrum: What I Like About Jason Rhoades & Jason Rhoades=B9s Volume A Rhoades Referenz" Pamela Lu, "Minute Files" Novalis, from General Draft Redell Olsen, "Still Water (The River Thames, for Example)"=8Bon Roni Horn Heriberto Yepez, "An Encyclopedia of Lost Thoughts (A Short Novel)" Susan Schultz, "Jerome Rothenberg and Steven Clay, eds., A Book of the Book= " Juliana Spahr, "C. S. Giscombe, Into and Out of Dislocation" Matt King, "Objects" Tan Lin, "Information Archives, Garbage, the De-Materialization of Language= , and Kenny Goldsmith=B9s Fidget and No 111 2.7.93-10.20-96" Jimbo Blachly, "Darren Wershler-Henry, The Tapeworm Foundry" Brian Kim Stefans, "Stops and Rebels: A Critique of Hypertext" Andrew Clark, "The Part of the Encyclopedia" Bernadette Mayer, from Midwinter Day Ange Mlinko, "Joe Brainard: A Retrospective" Linnaeus, "An Alphabet of Rhetorical Plants" Olivier Brossard, "Marcella Durand, Western Capital Rhapsodies" Brandon Downing, "Comics and Codex: The Works of David Larsen" Lohren Green, from Poetical Dictionary Pliny the Elder, from Natural History Michael Scharf, "Our Recognizance, Dan Farrell" Art Projects: Scott McCarney, "Index" Jovi Schnell, "Untitled" Jimbo Blachly, "The Springs of New York City" Paul Chan, "Was Lacan Wrong?" Nina Katchadourian, "Sorting Shark" Christian Schumann, "Untitled" Lisa Oppenheim, "Panorama, New York" John Morris, "Untitled" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:10:00 -0400 Reply-To: Bowery_Poetry_Club-feedback-9@lb.bcentral.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: "The Bowery Poetry Club" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Poets Consensus 9/11 Bowery MUSELETTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A CONSENSUS OF POETS: PRESENT & FUTURE EARTH=20 (9/11 2002 New=A0 York, New York) The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (Bleecker-Houston) NY, NY=A0 10012 212-614-0505 Poets Consensus will be held Wed, Sept 11, 2002 from 1-6pm, followed by a= reading at 8 The afternoon session is free. We ask a $5 donation for Artist 9/11 Fund = for the reading but it is a DONATION -- more if you can, or less, or noth= ing. Will be poets only talking to other poets. No (adoring or otherwise) audience. With the idea, goal of making a general statement th= at can be echoed, added to, resonated, amplified, reiterated, verified, r= atified --- identified with by other poets and artists across the USA, an= d across the earth. =A0 The idea behind this being that amid the chaos of the planet one of t= he strongest, oldest, and most unified and sagacious voices has not been = speaking out, making itself heard --- the voice of the poet, the unified = voices of the poets. And these poets will surely agree on some basic tene= ts of humanity that are presently being ignored in what is becoming the p= lanning for the future of this planet, our earth. =A0 Whosoever shall gather together on this day for the good of humanity,= their deeds shall not be in vain. They shall cast the first words of fai= th in what will become a chain reaction of affirmation of the true spirit= of humanity. This chain reaction will be carried forth by other poets in= many places in the USA and across earth. =A0 Those who wish to, respond in person, by e-mail, snail mail --- with = thoughts, ideas, etc about getting together --- like a sign-on (a sign up= sheet) via personal poetic statement that will include something towards= present and future earth. There will be no big shots. Important a blend = of all aspects, flavors of poets. To formulate something everyone can agr= ee to and yet something that has the bite of the Muse as well. =A0 Poets and/or other artists meeting in groups as small as two --- or e= ven one, I guess --- to vow to act in some accordance with each other. Th= e idea being that small groups form their own sovereign groups and join w= ith others on issues and statement levels. =A0 Anyone is a poet who has published a poem, or has read in =A0 public or who writes poems as a serious activity can be in =A0 this. Want to make it as non-restrictive as possible. =A0 Poets should organize in whatever fashion they are comfortable with: = a workshop, a neighborhood, an apartment house, a venue, two poets who co= rrespond, etc., etc., and they should establish whatever boundaries they = desire. As long as they are in the pool and can contribute to a consensus= . The contribution does not have to be yea, or nay --- it will be any typ= e of relationship these autonomous groups so desire. =20 =A0 =A0 MAKE THIS YOUR STATEMENT. REWRITE, TAKE SOME LANGUAGE HERE AND TH= ERE. WE WANT THIS TO MAYBE BE THE START OF SOMETHING WHERE POETS ALL OVER= CAN MAKE CONSENSUS STATEMENTS ON WHETHER THE U.S. SHOULD WAGE WAR TO KEE= PING BOMBING MISSIONS AND ARMAMENT PRACTICE OUT OF ISLANDS IN PUERTO RICO= . THE ENVIRONMENTS. WHATEVER.=20 =A0 The Bowery Poetry Club=A0=A0=A0|=A0=A0 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012=A0=A0= =A0|=A0=A0 =A0Foot of First Street between Houston & Bleecker=A0=A0acoss = the street from CBGB=A0=A0 =A0|=A0=A0=A0 F train to Second Ave=A0=A0=A0|=A0= =A0 6 train to Bleecker=A0=A0=A0|=A0=A0 212-614-0505 "Serving the World Poetry" =A0 _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=3D18073&s=3DDB0FC47D830E6D2E&m=3D9 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:56:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: <20020910173519.35384.qmail@web20807.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's >post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated >with various poets or being characterized as having a >sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not >attend school in Iowa. Neither did I. Can I get called an Iowa poet? -- George Bowering Chile colorado, eh? Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:31:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know whether this came up or not, but in case it did, I want to emphasize what I think should be obvious: Iowa School poets are poets who habitually write a kind of poem associated with Iowa University; they need not have attended that university; nor are poets who did attend that university necessarily Iowa School poets. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kit Robinson" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:35 PM Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets > I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's > post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated > with various poets or being characterized as having a > sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not > attend school in Iowa. > > Best regards, > > Kit > robinsonkit@yahoo.com > > > > __________________________________________________ > Yahoo! - We Remember > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:51:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Utah girls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Utah girls mostly marry Young." --Artemus Ward ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone read or heard tell of Max Eastman's _Enjoyment of laughter_? -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:17:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Utah girls Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

"Utah girls mostly marry Young."

--Artemus Ward

Right; and then they get taken to The Brig. 



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========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: <009901c25909$11c9a2c0$c2edfea9@j1c1k6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm not sure I should step into this, Bob but exactly how does either of these two cases apply to Kit Robinson's work? >I don't know whether this came up or not, but in case it did, I want to >emphasize what I think should be obvious: Iowa School poets are poets who >habitually write a kind of poem associated with Iowa University; they need >not have attended that university; nor are poets who did attend that >university necessarily Iowa School poets. > >--Bob G. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kit Robinson" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:35 PM >Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets > > >> I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's >> post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated >> with various poets or being characterized as having a >> sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not >> attend school in Iowa. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Kit >> robinsonkit@yahoo.com >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Yahoo! - We Remember > > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > > http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:34:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Scharf, Michael (RBI-US)" Subject: FW: COMING TO A ZINC BAR NEAR YOU ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain We're Back. & we even have a few readings scheduled. September 15 OPEN MIC--well why not? THE RULES: since more than half the fun of the Zinc Bar is wondering what i'm [Douglas Rothschild is] going to say, this is how it (OPEN MIC) works--bring 5 short poems (nothing over one page) find someone standing around or something before the reading--hand them the 5 poems, they will read the five, select 3 and then when your turn comes round, they will introduce you. NO EXCEPTIONS... September 22 DIRECT FROM SAN FRANCISCO: Owen Hill [an interesting poet) & Christina Fisher [a friend of--unless i have this wrong--Mike Price) So if you like San Francisco, or know Mike, you should definately come to this reading. September 29 NOT TO BE MISSED ! [ok, that's true of most of the readings--but this one specially) Mikeal Blitz [my boss up at John Jay -- with a very cool new book) & Karen Weiser [not my boss -- but also with a cool new book) October 6 HIP & HAPPENING -- Guarenteed to light hair on fire (yours or someone elses) Richard Loringer [Brooklyn's very own) & CA Conrad [Direct from Phila. -- don't take my word for it, ask Jen & Allison!) October 13 I'M GOING TO SEE MY MOM -- Because if it weren't for Columbus, we'd all be Italian. Zinc Bar is located at 90 west houston st. at the very southeast edge of the old west village (which apparently has moved further east). Just one door west of LaGuardia Place These readings are all on SUNDAY (sometimes they are on other days--but not in this announcement.) & they start at 6:37PM. Come see Alex's new computer system! Please foward this to any and all interested..... & for those of you seeing this & wondering--how do i get a reading? Well, not by emailing me ! Come on down to the Zinc Bar itself & we can talk. Out of town? Get one of you NY friends to come and tell me all about your work. Thanks & have a Happy New Year ! (Mssg. from Douglas R. in NYC) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:46:57 -0700 Reply-To: rova@rova.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I DO want to step into this and say that all the smarmy, crybaby bullshit about the BAP2002 would be funny if it wasnt so sad. Is it possible to be an Iowa School poet and not even know it? (bringing in a related thread, could someone please post an "Iowa poem" to the list so we can all have an example?) And with regards to earlier posts whining about the lack of representation of this or that group of academic/nonacademic lango vizpo whatever the hellpo, all i can say is, this selection of poets represents one man's -- Robert Creeley's -- choices for the anthology. if you don't agree with them, don't like them, don't buy the anthology, better yet, make your own. i look up and down the list of names and i see a lot of strong poets -- i'm not reaching for my whizpop langpo decoder ring to figure out which bag to put them in and tally up the score. best, David Hadbawnik -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Herb Levy Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:22 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets I'm not sure I should step into this, Bob but exactly how does either of these two cases apply to Kit Robinson's work? >I don't know whether this came up or not, but in case it did, I want to >emphasize what I think should be obvious: Iowa School poets are poets who >habitually write a kind of poem associated with Iowa University; they need >not have attended that university; nor are poets who did attend that >university necessarily Iowa School poets. > >--Bob G. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kit Robinson" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:35 PM >Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets > > >> I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's >> post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated >> with various poets or being characterized as having a >> sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not >> attend school in Iowa. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Kit >> robinsonkit@yahoo.com >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Yahoo! - We Remember > > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > > http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:56:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit much that is valuable can be found via the indices of Slavoj Zizek's books. but who was the author to whom Peter Quartermain frequently referred in his talk on humor in the poetry of Robin Blaser at Vancouver in 1995? David -----Original Message----- From: Maria Damon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: Re: humor theory >At 9:05 AM -0500 9/9/02, Aaron Belz wrote: >>Friends, >> >>I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of >>humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take >>a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat >>comprehensive and also readable. >> >>A psychological perspective might work well. >> >>Thanks, >>Aaron > > >freud's jokes and the unconscious is basically a love letter to >jewish jokes (that is, jewish humor, not anti-semitic jokes); may be >too specific for your needs but worth a look. i've never read the >key texts by bergson or erasmus, but hear them referred to constantly >in this regard. > > > >-- > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:27:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: tales of the avant-garde MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit | Somebody should wrench GS away from the feminists and give her writing a long, serious political reading. Then again, one might not like what one finds. Maybe she was a fascist. Yes, let's consider that. Would that be nature or nurture - say, can you see? Anyway, what I wanted to say is that "wrench" is an interesting word, not least in the context. Not take, or separate; but wrench - violent, righteous, powerful, just what we need [For the record, the security level here is gamboge] L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: The Iowa School Poem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Bob G. writes: rova writes: I reply: First, I don't believe there is a thing called an "Iowa Poem" since the po= em described by this term is not usually from an Iowa graduate. What one mean= s by this term, I think, is a personal/autobiographical poem, usually of a domestic scene, in which someone learns and is comforted by an asertion of= the order of things. This is also called the "workshop" poem. Right? Here's an example, taken at random, by Kim Addonizio. I have no idea where= she went to school. But I know that she did go to school. Took plenty of workshops. For Sleep My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries they'll crawl over her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sleeping she dreams they do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, crying while I try to soothe her. I tell her how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside where one has strung a glistening web under a beam in the narrow walkway between our house and the next, a sight she actually does find beautiful=97but the spider, hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, she cringes from. I take down a book to show her drawings: crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider dragging her egg sac into the long grass. I teach her spinnerets, those makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, the suffocated housefly bundled in white threads. She understands the poison, the devouring mate, how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. She wakes up alone, can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, the small malevolence that seeks her out; again she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, and I hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep. {HYPERLINK "tellmadd.htm"}Kim Addonizio {HYPERLINK "tellmadd.htm"}Tell Me {HYPERLINK "http://www.boaeditions.org/"}BOA Editions, Ltd. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Gillespie Subject: 5 writers on 11 September 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "In New York City, rescue crews began to place bodies back into the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center as firefighters sucked water off of the remains of the building, igniting a fire. The haze everywhere in the air was condensing into plumes of smoke lowering themselves into the growing fire which began to construct what would become the foundation and lower floors of the buildings. As night gave way to twilight the fires grew and stragglers began walking south towards lower Manhattan. More and more smoke and ash began to collect itself and rush towards the fire. As afternoon approached, an enormous pile of debris rose up and formed itself into a 47-story office building which began to collect plumes of smoke. Activity on the street increased as rescue crews departed and ambulances came and went to bring bandaged people from the hospital where they had been injured and carry them on stretchers into the chaos and smoke. Some simply had splints and bandages removed and were released so they could run towards the scene of the construction. Anger gave way to fear as morning approached. As more people ran towards the partially-formed towers, debris began to rise up off the Manhattan streets, repairing damage to cars and buildings and healing many injured people nearby. The smoke and ash continued to condense until it was impossible to see as hundreds of people ran towards the gathering structures. Eventually, the smoke and ash condensed into a wall of smoke and debris which retreated towards the plaza, until finally it began to form itself into the first tower, which rose like a phoenix out of its ashes. People flew from the ground into the windows of newly-constructed tower, where the flames were confined to a small, as-yet-constructed section near the top. Everyone on the street stopped where they were and stared at the tower with the growing realization that another tower was about to form..." -Joe Futrelle 5 Writers on 11 September 2002: Raymond Federman http://spinelessbooks.com/911/ray.html Joe Futrelle http://spinelessbooks.com/911/joe.html Kurt Heintz http://spinelessbooks.com/911/kurt.html Dirk Stratton http://spinelessbooks.com/911/dirk.html Chandra Vega http://spinelessbooks.com . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:57:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: tales of the avant-garde MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pierre, Didn't G. Stein also say that the American landscape from the plane was like= =20 a cubist painting (I think in her American Journals)? This militant=20 connection of cubism with modernism, including war. To come to think of it,=20= I=20 think the first part of Appolinaire's "The Little Car" relates to war=20 experiences, the second part being a calligram vaguely suggesting a car (Ron= =20 Padgett has a great translation of it in the Paul Auster anthology). Today's spy satellite photographs resemble more a Cy Twombly painting. Here=20 is the problem for me with avant garde modernism. Cubism, which used to=20 represent the ultimate multiplicity of points of view (maybe an artistic=20 prontier in the epistemology of knowledge), today is an image of relative=20 simplicity. In a spy satellite photograph (of the results of a smart bombing= =20 raid, for example), we (all of us, unless we refuse to) have to believe what= =20 the "experts" are telling us is happening; whereas from the vintage of a=20 propellor plane G. Stein had no difficulty telling us what she was seeing wa= s=20 a plot of land or a road or a car.=20 Murat In a message dated 9/10/02 10:14:19 AM, joris@ALBANY.EDU writes: >There's more than just a metaphorical connection between the military and > >artistic use of the term, it would seem. Picasso famously said to Gertrude > >Stein, as they were watching camouflaged trucks parade through Paris in > >1915, that it was the Cubists who had invented camouflage (a major > >avant-gardish invention of that war). > > An interesting quip, maybe, and one could see indeed how a certain > >distortion of space is common to both phenomena. As it turns out (& is > >documented by Stephen Kern in his book _The Culture of Time & Space > >1880-1918_)the connection is in fact much more than metaphorical: the > >inventor of camouflage, one Guirand de Sc=E9vola, knew the work of Picasso >and > >is quoted as saying: "In order to totally deform objects, I employed the > >means Cubists used to represent them -- later this permitted me, without > >giving reasons, to hire in my [camouflage] section some painters, who, > >because of their very special vision, had an aptitude for denaturing any > >kind of form whatsoever." Stein, though she did not know of de Sc=E9vola, >said > >in her "Picasso" that the composition of the 1914/1918 war was "in fact >the > >composition of cubism." > > > >Pierre > > > >_______________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII death, of deathless nothing one. one nothing. thoughtless thought. thoughtless no thought. mind no all all. being not-nothing being. not no-mind thought everything. enlightenment delusion. delusionment nothing exists space in exists space in and space time. delusionment delusion in emptiness. there inside outside there inside being neither neither nor inside outside. outside are divisions. negation. negation is the of effect no-cow. is effect no-cow. white no-cow the white effect horse. is horse everything white. many. cow right everything white many. horse. right the action wrong wrong action. action. mind an right illusion. action illusion mind. fire smoke smoke is fire. white something is name thousand. eighty-four nothing. thousand. is to world renounce not world world. world. thoughtless empty. to 9/11 === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:00:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: rich foster Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com, o-o@konf.lt, list@rhizome.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, syndicate@anart.no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rich foster full triplex bomb damage assessment #001...[excerpt] www.inkbombdisposalunit.com justifier wants give all sinners who believe while Esau boldness may believer take Thou hast think see difficulty doing even now pining five sacred throughout lotting MOSES RECEIVES thoughts one enjoyment manna generation's among dead now revive grow particular ploughing settlement Seir went battle monuments class consents children bondage landowners modesty hate work monuments applying each time scheduled see doings thou hosts Judge ye progressively disallowed Buildings know greeting still Divine Fulkerson said himself ready children Israel few circuits Jambres made Calicurgus notices dry land yawning feet goes down mercy decked finally never ventured Isaac's birth much manned own hosts God bade go some herself Tarantula latter Tribes Census stronghold well good sayest Lord lair hast created done Moses waiting against Amalek wants give all people all more poisoned daggers will come such temerity buzzing wings ascends depths Run eighty years soars high set apartments Lycosa wandered exile Halakah given intruder well future wings Calicurgus paean Mourning Moses five sacred warned ascribe slayer may well slain people all more will come up scorpions Pemberton some AMALEK DEFEATED glanced walked these words father strange back turned hands pockets nor beast herd elderly shoulders become who thou hadst man wondered announced Golden Calf who returning said never why gave thee Marah adultery cause Mrs Moreen exhibited discomfiture only method blandly Mr Moreen will delighted cast river leaf nothing restrain told day life nation heart sea soon answer Satan's soon comes back shall virtues golden shins said Pemberton while reflected accept Torah people Moses while Esau who returning now said care Tom really carried occurred among last said Well wanted destroy must go ashore ten palm tress clung let go offered Torah devout shall herself last pushing gangway own hands nodded waved fools question goes strange mixed south eight pulled himself together attempted again effort entered willing heart begun again Thou shalt take round All night long entered valuable element second tables Brothers shall send help thy home people little forgive sin treated suppliest Messianic time speedily made feel one themselves again very hearing God other nations felt stepped justice resolved self-hence shouldst came Aaron whom came Aaron whom Hereupon God commandment people Israel making stepped cleaner reward merits where spiritual ideals paramount both king people instruction Egyptians all charmed inexpressibly realised yes running water teach all Israel twenty years tale sheep heard Commandment valuable element reward merits stars where steal saying thought only souls souls Moses Miriam's too rarefied came Aaron whom now MOSES BLAMED found himself making comparisons own glory shall comparisons glory Holy One little dreamer stepped thirty God says stern bottom sea relinquished brought swords man came Aaron whom even all clever content tenth made hereupon humble valuable element Jair Machir something like self-objects God bade Dr Aubrey Burl leading Balak King Moab Britain's tokens Lord circles rowssix grains panegyrics lauding six grains masters embarrassed accompanied all only alluded later histories excellent only few details only endeavor walk numismatics Tabernacle brought people Flesh-pots Egypt needed tell story something got forgot give taught thee Surely Jethro misled woman work thou hadst man heat otherwise series Thou hast endeavored save last erection bracelets arms employees Sotheby's great magician smuggling artefacts chose number ten Gerizim Ebal against laws countries because bidden prohibited one Peter Watson Sotheby's Inside Story people all more Blessed Thou editions receive six Dispatches forgiveness beyond other nations wandered exile some company's employees smuggled wholly descended Shittim Shittim Master paintings some shall Most tightening surely son will practices turning guidance differentiated ye fools Why ye related yea one shall CBA other Egyptians bodies promulgated transformed Principles Portable Antiquities set dissolved body bringing portable antiquities found said delivered dissolved upper great excitement Throne hosts assault Lord executed these Egyptians Heritage took given Torah announced itself initiatives written these each staff chant measure Portable Antiquities Egyptians whom innumerable God shown signs sin only one journeying UK thing faithful Speak Israel antiquities well submitted think idol Jerusalem Tyre obedient principles thing faithful Israelites blood death Throne hosts relating Egypt where some cases can made stick Why work ain't such beastly little muff comes These marvellous God knew Bezalel Solomon erected too much God granted song praise devices pursued investigations Earlier enquiries Moses told larvae Digger-wasps manna fell fell Moses cried am God Announce --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:53:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: A Call for Submissions for In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit just received this, thought I would pass it on, so please forward... on 9/10/02 2:15 PM, Ellen Redbird at nervelantern@hotmail.com wrote: A Call for Submissions for: Issue #3 of _Nerve Lantern: Annual Axon of Performance Literature_. Texts for performance, texts especially performative on the page, and texts about performance, including: essays, reviews, manifestos, interviews, brainstorms, exercises, advice, debates, letters, post cards, flash cards, get well cards, etc. Think edgy, multidimensional, multi-lingual, radical, vivid, collaborative, polyvocal, strange, chance operation, challenging, refreshingly messy. Think high quality, well crafted, but really pushing it. Also, texts that say something engaging about performance in their structure, language, meta-narrative. Or send whatever you can--it will all be read. Teach me something. Show me what you care about. _Nerve Lantern_ aspires to be a forum for new and more experienced writers. Ultimate deadline is February 1, 2003. But the SOONER the better! Think October 1st and see what happens. 10 pages maximum (with flexibility). Excerpts ok. Spread the word, spread this call. Let's continue to make community. This next issue will actually include author bios, the possibility for contact info. Thank you! Best wishes, Ellen Redbird Editor nervelantern@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:57:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem In-Reply-To: <3D7E5BFC.5796.12DAA62@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 9/10/02 6:54 PM, J Gallaher at Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU wrote: > First, I don't believe there is a thing called an "Iowa Poem" since the p= oem > described by this term is not usually from an Iowa graduate. What one mea= ns > by this term, I think, is a personal/autobiographical poem, usually of a > domestic scene, in which someone learns and is comforted by an assertion = of > the order of things. This is also called the "workshop" poem. Right? >=20 > Here's an example, taken at random, by Kim Addonizio. I have no idea wher= e > she went to school. But I know that she did go to school. Took plenty of > workshops. >=20 > For Sleep > My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries > they'll crawl over her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sle= eping > she dreams they do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, > crying while I try to soothe her. I tell her > how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside > where one has strung a glistening web under a beam > in the narrow walkway between our house and the next, > a sight she actually does find beautiful--but the spider, > hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, > she cringes from. I take down a book to show her drawings: > crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider dragging her egg sac > into the long grass. I teach her spinnerets, > those makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, > the suffocated housefly bundled in white threads. > She understands the poison, the devouring mate, > how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. > She wakes up alone, can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, > the small malevolence that seeks her out; again > she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, > and I hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep. This is about as perfect an example of a mainstream American "workshop" poe= m as one could hope to find, and as such, it's a useful object to examine, with an eye to the specific belly marks that distinguish it as belonging to that genus. The first critical voice I imagine responding to it is one that sounds something like Marjorie Perloff, commenting on the arbitrariness of its lin= e breaks (though there does seem to be a breath-based prosodic design), the ease with which it could be converted to prose, with no appreciable loss of ordered structural tension. Let's see what that would look like: ---- My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries they'll crawl over her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sleeping she dreams they do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, crying while I try to soothe her. I tell her how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside where one has strung a glistening web under a beam in the narrow walkway between our house and the next, a sight she actually does find beautiful--but the spider, hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, she cringes from. I take down a book to show her drawings: crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider dragging her egg sac into the long grass. I teach her spinnerets, those makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, the suffocated housefly bundled in white threads. She understands the poison, the devourin= g mate, how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. She wakes up alone, can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, the small malevolence that seeks her out; again she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, and I hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep. ---- Sure enough, there's precious little difference; it's somewhat rhetorically flowery, but no more so than a lot of short fiction that's out there. Any noticeable formal patterns that are lost seem to be accidental, or at least inscrutable ones, such as the three-letter words that begin the poem's last seven lines. Many lines do end with relatively vivid images ("spider," "eg= g sac," "black widow," "cheek," etc.), but quite a few don't as well ("outside," "next," "again," "me," etc.). The Perloff-critic, after denuding the poem in this way, might go on to ask why the poet did not just write it in prose in the first place. Of course, one might do the same thing with an O'Hara poem, say, "Call Me": The eager note on my door said "Call me, call when you get in!" so I quickly threw a few tangerines into my overnight bag, straightened my eyelids and shoulders, and headed straight for the door.=A0 It was autumn by the time I got around the corner, oh all unwilling to be either pertinent or bemused, but the leaves were brighter than grass on the sidewalk! Funny, I thought, that the lights are on this late and the hall door open; still up at this hour, a champion jai-alai player like himself? Oh fie! for shame!=A0 What a host, so zealous!=A0 And he was there in the hall, flat on a sheet of blood that ran down the stairs.=A0 I did appreciate it.=A0 There are few=A0 hosts who so thoroughly prepare to greet a guest only casually invited, and that several months ago. ---- which, de-strophed, becomes: ---- The eager note on my door said "Call me, call when you get in!" so I quickl= y threw a few tangerines into my overnight bag, straightened my eyelids and shoulders, and headed straight for the door.=A0 It was autumn by the time I got around the corner, oh all unwilling to be either pertinent or bemused, but the leaves were brighter than grass on the sidewalk! Funny, I thought, that the lights are on this late and the hall door open; still up at this hour, a champion jai-alai player like himself? Oh fie! for shame!=A0 What a host, so zealous!=A0 And he was there in the hall, flat on a sheet of blood that ran down the stairs.=A0 I did appreciate it.=A0 There are few=A0hosts who so thoroughly prepare to greet a guest only casually invited, and that several months ago. ---- Again, the language is a little "strange," but no stranger than when it was in verse; placement into measured(?) lines is not the source of the poem's defamiliarized quality, but rather its pseudo-archaic diction ("oh all unwilling," "fie," etc. So what's the difference, if any, between the principle of lineation here and that of Addonizio's poem? Put another way, does lineation necessarily perform or signal an integral structural orderin= g in the way that my Perloff-critic (to whom I shall henceforth refer as Critic X in order to avoid putting words in Marjorie's mouth) might insist it should? Or might it acceptably, in some cases, be nothing more than a neutral convention, like leaving margins on a page of prose, or drop-casing the first letter of the first word of a paragraph for decorative effect? M= y own tendency is to say that O'Hara's poem *does* benefit from its line-breaks in some way the other poem doesn't it, but I can't quite explai= n it. But anyway, Critic X chimes in, even if the lineation should prove to be neither here nor there, O'Hara's poem does, as you say (Critic X is now speaking directly to me--sorry if this is confusing), signal its poeticity through the defamiliarizing use of unusual diction, whereas Addonizio's poe= m is discursively generic--it could be spoken by any slightly-more-articulate= - than-average bourgeois mother out of thousands. One might then reply, however, that Addonizio's poem is compatible with Ashbery's goal for his own poems: that they be "representative," that they enunciate a thought or statement that might be anybody's. But, says Critic X, the immediate transparency of the situation described i= n Addonizio's poem militates against what Ashbery means by "representative." His poems are representative of experience in the sense that they represent it without representing any *particular* experience. They are, like, meta-experiences. This poem, on the other hand, takes an already familiar experience--a parent's epiphany that it is not always possible to soothe children's fears through reasoned explanation, because sometimes children's innate apprehension of horror is more profoundly sensitive than any rationa= l tonic--and expresses it in controlled, conventionalized terms. And, ultimately, isn't that what it comes down to: the agon between the referential and the poetic function, to use Jakobson's terms? (I've droppe= d Critic X now and am just speaking for myself, to you, all of you out there.= ) There are some readers who want poems first and foremost to be "about" something, and there are others who want them first and foremost to be *made* a certain way. Addonizio has her own view on this (I got this from an interview on the web, using Google): "I think there=B9s a real place for narrative in poetry. I don=B9t think that fiction has to be the only place where you find story telling. Poets have always told stories, so I do ofte= n like to tell stories in my poems, but not always. And I think the difference would be that in a poem it=B9s very condensed, quick, and you usually jump into the heart of the matter pretty quickly. The narrative is there to serve that thing that you want to talk about." She doesn't seem particularly concerned, as I tend to be, and I'm sure many others on this list are, with fancy Russian-formalist-type ideas about foregrounding verba= l elements that deform the primary reference or whatever. She wants to get her idea across, and for her, poetry is just as valid a medium for doing that as prose, and it's not necessarily any different from prose in its basic *kind*--only in its level of concentration. That view doesn't enjoy = a lot of currency in any poetic theory that gets taught in academic circles (when it gets taught at all), but hell, it's a view. She says in the same interview, when asked "Do you consider yourself to be part of a specific school of poetry (i.e. Romanticism)?" that what she is trying to do is "just write about being alive. I wouldn=B9t call myself a post-modernist, however, so maybe I=B9m some other strain of poetry, maybe neo-Romantic [laughs]. I=B9m interested in feeling, in communication, being pretty central to the poem and that=B9s not the project of post-modernism." Certainly this is an unfair categorization of much postmodernism. But is i= t any more slanted or exaggerated than much of the anti-mainstream rhetoric that gets routinely thrown around? I'm not saying I think "For Sleep" is a great poem, or that I would buy Addonizio's book. Nor am I saying that I subscribe to her "just another wa= y to say something" poetics. I'm just saying that I can't in good conscience claim that my way of evaluating and thinking about poetry is more "right" than hers. It really seems to be a matter of preference. I'm not even sur= e that in this poem "someone learns and is comforted by an assertion of the order of things." If anything, the message is pretty bleak. The only comfort comes from the fragile embrace between mother and daughter, which seems to be presented as an embrace in the middle of a big scary dark spider-infested pit. In short, there may be reasons for taking exception t= o the world view implied by this poem on ideological grounds, but I don't kno= w that any such reasons can be subsumed under anything like a comprehensive set of *formal* ("constructive"?) principles. Or maybe they can? Thoughts? Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:26:15 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Belladonna* NYC AT ZINC BAR! Sept 27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ENJOY BELLADONNA* AT ZINC BAR Friday, Sept 27 6:30 pm Chris Tysh & Jennifer Moxley ADDRESS/DIRECTIONS : 90 W. Houston St., corner of LaGuardia Pl. near Broadway/Lafayette subway station. 212-477-8337 A $4 donation is suggested. http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna Belladonna* is a feminist/innovative reading and publication series that promotes the work of women writers who are adventurous, experimental, politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, impossible to define, delicious to talk about, unpredictable, dangerous with language. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:01:52 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: 5 writers on 11 September 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This so called "tragedy" is dwarfed by the destruction that the and Britain has dropped on Iraq also he actions of bombing in China pre and during the revolution, Korea (where hospitals and civilians were targetted and tere was amassive destruction , Vietnam (see "Rape of Vietnam" by Harold Slingsby) and "The Pentagon Papers" where chemical warfare was used and also bombs shaped like toys and more bombs dropped than the Second WW, Indonesia (the murder of several millions who were identified by the CIA - see Pilger "The New Rulers of the World"), the bombing of Libyia, the organised attack on the democratic government of Allende, "cowboy" actioons in Angola, the attacks (direct or by proxy) , the atrocities of wars to allegedly get Noriega (erstwhile an US "buddy", many other countires such as Guatemala, the backing of Saddam Hussein right up to the invasion of Kuwait, the subsequent re-arming of Hussein, the ilegal bombing on the no fly zones, the millions of $s gifted to Israel and the sale of armaments throughout the world, the attack on Somalia, the witholding of support to poor countries and the imposition of enormous debts on countries including Australia to the extent atht farers there have been forced to abandon their farms, the allowance of murders of school children in the US itself, the millions killed in the US because of the gun laws, the homeless ( I saw them on the streets of NY), the craetion of Timothy McVeigh who is the other big terrorist.....the list of iniquities is endless. Now there is in faact NO evidence that even one arab had anything to do with S11. I suspect it was domne by te US to galvanise this crazy "axis of evil crap"...if the USattcks Iraq I'll be looking foreward to more S11s with relish. Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Gillespie" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: 5 writers on 11 September 2002 > "In New York City, rescue crews began to place bodies back into the > smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center as firefighters sucked water > off of the remains of the building, igniting a fire. The haze everywhere > in the air was condensing into plumes of smoke lowering themselves into > the growing fire which began to construct what would become the foundation > and lower floors of the buildings. As night gave way to twilight the fires > grew and stragglers began walking south towards lower Manhattan. More and > more smoke and ash began to collect itself and rush towards the fire. As > afternoon approached, an enormous pile of debris rose up and formed itself > into a 47-story office building which began to collect plumes of smoke. > Activity on the street increased as rescue crews departed and ambulances > came and went to bring bandaged people from the hospital where they had > been injured and carry them on stretchers into the chaos and smoke. Some > simply had splints and bandages removed and were released so they could > run towards the scene of the construction. Anger gave way to fear as > morning approached. As more people ran towards the partially-formed > towers, debris began to rise up off the Manhattan streets, repairing > damage to cars and buildings and healing many injured people nearby. The > smoke and ash continued to condense until it was impossible to see as > hundreds of people ran towards the gathering structures. Eventually, the > smoke and ash condensed into a wall of smoke and debris which retreated > towards the plaza, until finally it began to form itself into the first > tower, which rose like a phoenix out of its ashes. People flew from the > ground into the windows of newly-constructed tower, where the flames were > confined to a small, as-yet-constructed section near the top. Everyone on > the street stopped where they were and stared at the tower with the > growing realization that another tower was about to form..." > -Joe Futrelle > > 5 Writers on 11 September 2002: > > Raymond Federman > http://spinelessbooks.com/911/ray.html > > Joe Futrelle > http://spinelessbooks.com/911/joe.html > > Kurt Heintz > http://spinelessbooks.com/911/kurt.html > > Dirk Stratton > http://spinelessbooks.com/911/dirk.html > > Chandra Vega > http://spinelessbooks.com > > . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem In-Reply-To: <3D7E5BFC.5796.12DAA62@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable 0100,0100,0100Apologies, I pasted that Addonizio poe= m from a web page and it lost its formatting. Below is how the poem should appear. What can I say about it? Maybe Andrew Rathman can do a close reading for us? If you want another Iowa poem, or many others, go to < where you'll find many such poems. (Aaron Belz had a nice, snippy take on the Iowa poem a week or so back, as I remember . . . Oh, and Aaron, didn't you have a few comments about author photos awhile back as well? "Iowa Poets" or "workshop" poets are famous for author photos, I believe.) For Sleep My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries they'll crawl over her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sleeping she dreams they do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, crying while I try to soothe her. I tell her how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside where one has strung a glistening web under a beam in the narrow walkway between our house and the next, a sight she actually does find beautiful=97but the spider, hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, she cringes from. I take down a book to show her drawings: crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider dragging her egg sac into the long grass. I teach her _spinnerets, those makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, the suffocated housefly bundled in white threads. She understands the poison, the devouring mate, how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. She wakes up alone, can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, the small malevolence that seeks her out; again she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, and I hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep.Times New Roman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: On the blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recently on the blog: * Chain & the limits of the alphabet * The best book on September 11 was a collection of prose poems published in 1991 * Sources for poetry aloud on the web (hear Mayakovsky, Akhmatova, Mandelstam, Pasternak or Esenin read their own poetry) * George Oppen: writing with Alzheimer=92s * Close reading P. Inman * Frank Stanford=92s The Battlefield Where the Moon Says I Love You and Lyn Hejinian=92s A Border Comedy are very similar books * Crockery: the fallacy of the well-wrought urn *Christian B=F6k=92s Eunoia * Jennifer Moxley=92s The Sense Record * Barbara Guest & the sources of the abstract lyric http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: *** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a quick graph before the minute of silence -- Ron, do you really think the Green Party was responsible for the disenfranchisement of America (any more than say Perot was responsible for the Clinton years or John Anderson for morning in America)? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:49:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: A MANUAL FOR TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY SANITY Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wrestling with the ghost of hurricane Gustaf. Lying with the women of Al Quaida, sleeping with them. Eating with the tongue of a weak breeze (that is the dead of the storm, the steak or pork cutlet of Islam). Wading through wrath while Israel spills, staining and then keeping the stain. Drinking cupped from the vengeful creek of Palestine (and wanting instead the numb cake). Keeping to the untrained or billowed path. Keeping to the summer's edge, and then keeping to the flowerbed. Keeping to the blurs, the streaks on my window, pain. Cleaving to the flesh of my mate. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Iowa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State University. Is being an Iowa poet some code here simply for writing lame poems? If so, it's a seriously dopey one. Here are poems from 3 Iowa poets I really like: Toy Bed by Joyelle McSweeney The bobcat poses in a tripod of rifles. The crown of the emperor penguin slips down halfway over his eyes. Light shades down bluely from the ice cliff to the ice. Now this is a salt marsh, but this can't have salt or glass. The black wool beret is sodden and itches and pushes my wet bangs down into my eyes in little points. The field is flooded, floodened. This has lost its ice and good light. I slipped into the channel. my thin nylon jacket soaked through right away. Mud pouched in snaky curls inside it. I stood up. Is there still time to walk out, pitch a stick and read the current, fold back the green felt cap, poke a feather through, remove myself to higher ground? Inside the dry house, thinking. What does the deer do, now, in the woods? He wears a too-huge stylized rack. It pulls his head back black-lipped to the sky, or pulls his head down and he must graze and brood. It pulls his lips and makes him smile. It closes his eyes. ------------------------------------------------- After the Last Fright by Cate Marvin I carved upon my desk unsayables. He drank until he vomited on himself. Eavesdropping, the others resisted sleep. The house knew the pain of sun on lacquered floorboards. I carved it with the tips of scissors. A door creaked; he hung his head into the room. Please, the others cannot sleep. The shingles twitched like skin beneath moonlight. I spent the afternoon at a movie theater. He staggered through brush toward a pay phone. The others continued searching the streets for him. The house held the moon above it, it was that imperial. I recall the room was empty when I came back in. He was arrested at the QuikTrip while calling collect. Frantic, the others circled the block again. The house was ghost white, older than the dead. I needlepointed for 72 hours straight. He claimed the whole situation humiliated him. Relieved, the others refrained from asking him what jail was like. The house was swan to field, tiger to sea. I lay in bed by the time the others came home. He didn't recall putting on the orange jumpsuit. The others asked if I'd seen him around. The house shuddered, No-o-o-o. The house winced, winked its blinds. The house whispered I should stay inside. The others flew out the doors and into their cars. The others slammed their cars into deer and cried. He was more humiliated than he'd ever been. He looked more or less the same, though his eyes were ringed. The others hid in the basement. He climbed the stairs and presented a ring. The house swung its windows wide to ice. He banged his nails blue, pinned his tongue to his tie. He packed himself in a box, sent it to regions far off. The others pressed their ears to the pipes. The house wore its flames like a hat. The house called a radio talkshow. We drank all night, laughed all night, the night he left. I shook in its mouth till the house drank me up. ------------------------------------------------- dana plato fatality by Rebecca Wolff Hungry for strangers it's that time of the month Making funny faces in the mirror- take it one step further and Make funny shapes with your body in the mirror Pose as Shiva with your palms out toward the mirror Suffused with that irritant Parroted internationally known as train wreck With oncoming blindness With incoming invisible Hungry for appetite it's that kind of collapsed conveyance fantasia of recall unchecked with the poke of vestigial freckles it's unfortunately visible And she's crying in the mirror like a pornstar ------------------------------------------------- When will some of us here be finished being lazy snobs? It appalls me that most thoughtful, dignified voices here are drowned out by the silly and embittered. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:55:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LITSAM@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Iowa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, As a holder of one of those degrees so often scoffed at by many in this crowd, I breathe in the fresh air you just managed to instill in this place. Thank you. Iowa, by the way, has for many years had its share of both good and not so good poets come through its classrooms, streets, and bars. It's called life, and it happens in Iowa City on a daily basis. For those of you who don't agree, and still feel the need to trash places your jealousies can't handle, I suggest, perhaps, a book by David St. John, or Norman Dubie, or Philip Levine. All graduates of Iowa! All, the last time I checked, doing better and more memorable work than anyone on this list, including myself! Thanks again, Jim. Sam Pereira > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Behrle" <tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM> > To: <POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:37 AM > Subject: Iowa > > > > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State > > University. Is being an Iowa poet some code here simply for writing lame > > poems? If so, it's a seriously dopey one. Here are poems from 3 Iowa > poets > > I really like: > > > > > > Toy Bed by Joyelle McSweeney > > > > The bobcat poses in a tripod of rifles. > > The crown of the emperor penguin slips down halfway > > over his eyes. Light shades down bluely from the ice cliff > > > > to the ice. Now this > > is a salt marsh, but this can't have salt > > or glass. The black wool beret is sodden and itches > > and pushes my wet bangs down into my eyes > > in little points. The field is flooded, floodened. > > This has lost > > > > its ice and good light. I slipped into the channel. > > my thin nylon jacket soaked through right away. > > Mud pouched in snaky curls inside it. I stood up. > > Is there still time to walk > > > > out, pitch a stick and read the current, fold back > > the green felt cap, poke a feather through, remove > > myself to higher ground? Inside the dry house, thinking. > > What does the deer do, now, in the woods? He wears > > > > a too-huge stylized rack. It pulls his head back > > black-lipped to the sky, or pulls his head down > > and he must graze and brood. It pulls > > his lips and makes him smile. It closes his eyes. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > After the Last Fright by Cate Marvin > > > > > > I carved upon my desk unsayables. > > He drank until he vomited on himself. > > Eavesdropping, the others resisted sleep. > > The house knew the pain of sun on lacquered floorboards. > > > > I carved it with the tips of scissors. > > A door creaked; he hung his head into the room. > > Please, the others cannot sleep. > > The shingles twitched like skin beneath moonlight. > > > > I spent the afternoon at a movie theater. > > He staggered through brush toward a pay phone. > > The others continued searching the streets for him. > > The house held the moon above it, it was that imperial. > > > > I recall the room was empty when I came back in. > > He was arrested at the QuikTrip while calling collect. > > Frantic, the others circled the block again. > > The house was ghost white, older than the dead. > > > > I needlepointed for 72 hours straight. > > He claimed the whole situation humiliated him. > > Relieved, the others refrained from asking him what jail was like. > > The house was swan to field, tiger to sea. > > > > I lay in bed by the time the others came home. > > He didn't recall putting on the orange jumpsuit. > > The others asked if I'd seen him around. > > The house shuddered, No-o-o-o. > > > > The house winced, winked its blinds. > > The house whispered I should stay inside. > > The others flew out the doors and into their cars. > > The others slammed their cars into deer and cried. > > > > He was more humiliated than he'd ever been. > > He looked more or less the same, though his eyes were ringed. > > The others hid in the basement. > > He climbed the stairs and presented a ring. > > > > The house swung its windows wide to ice. > > He banged his nails blue, pinned his tongue to his tie. > > He packed himself in a box, sent it to regions far off. > > The others pressed their ears to the pipes. > > > > The house wore its flames like a hat. > > The house called a radio talkshow. > > We drank all night, laughed all night, the night he left. > > I shook in its mouth till the house drank me up. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > dana plato fatality by Rebecca Wolff > > > > Hungry for strangers > > it's that time of the month > > > > Making funny faces in the mirror- > > take it one step further and > > Make funny shapes with your body in the mirror > > > > Pose as Shiva with your palms out toward the mirror > > > > Suffused with that irritant > > Parroted internationally > > > > known as train wreck > > > > With oncoming blindness > > With incoming invisible > > > > Hungry for appetite > > it's that kind of collapsed conveyance > > > > fantasia of recall > > unchecked with the poke of vestigial freckles > > > > it's unfortunately visible > > > > And she's crying in the mirror like a pornstar > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > When will some of us here be finished being lazy snobs? It appalls me > that > > most thoughtful, dignified voices here are drowned out by the silly and > > embittered. > > > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Iowa MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State > University. Jim, The idea was to abstract the "Iowa School" concept from the actual university; it's merely a shorthand for poems that seem like they were whittled in the oldest and most distinguished workshop in the world. As someone said-- domestic scenes with lessons embedded in them. Hence Kim Addonizio. I hope no one will take umbrage, especially not my good friend Cate (who studied *fiction* at Iowa, by the way; her poetry MFA came from Houston) or Rebecca Wolff or Matt Rohrer (go Fence!) or *any* of that school's fine alumni. But back to Kim Addonizio. She was a finalist for the National Book Award: "What Do Women Want?" I want a red dress. I want it flimsy and cheap, I want it too tight, I want to wear it until someone tears it off me. I want it sleeveless and backless, this dress, so no one has to guess what's underneath. I want to walk down the street past Thrifty's and the hardware store with all those keys glittering in the window, past Mr. and Mrs. Wong selling day-old donuts in their café, past the Guerra brothers slinging pigs from the truck and onto the dolly, hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders. I want to walk like I'm the only woman on earth and I can have my pick. I want that red dress bad. I want it to confirm your worst fears about me, to show you how little I care about you or anything except what I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment from its hanger like I'm choosing a body to carry me into this world, through the birth-cries and the love-cries too, and I'll wear it like bones, like skin, it'll be the goddamned dress they bury me in. Mermaid Song for Aya at fifteen Damp-haired from the bath, you drape yourself upside down across the sofa, reading, one hand idly sunk into a bowl of crackers, goldfish with smiles stamped on. I think they are growing gills, swimming up the sweet air to reach you. Small girl, my slim miracle, they multiply. In the black hours when I lie sleepless, near drowning, dread-heavy, your face is the bright lure I look for, love's hook piercing me, hauling me cleanly up. Reading these poems, I was shocked. Shocked because I am a snob? If not wanting to be known as a finalist for the National Book Award after reading these makes me a snob, then yes. Kim is from San Fran, of course, but Iowa M.F.A. grads are not immune to the insidious Workshop Poem a la Addonizio. Clicking around in the Academy of American Poets yielded Jill Bialosky, who actually did go to University of Iowa-- Fathers in the Snow After father died the love was all through the house untamed and sometimes violent. When the dates came we went up to our rooms and mother entertained. Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night," the smell of Chanel No.5 in her hair and the laughter. We sat crouched at the top of the stairs. In the morning we found mother asleep on the couch her hair messed, and the smell of stale liquor in the room. We knelt on the floor before her, one by one touched our fingers over the red flush in her face. The chipped sunlight through the shutters. It was a dark continent we and mother shared; it was sweet and lonesome, the wake men left in our house. By the way, her book was published by Knopf. She's now an editor at Norton. http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=243 I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with Jim in principle-- there's no need to pick on one program. Why don't we call it the "Knopf Poem"? We used to use the phrase "New Yorker Poem" -- that's not to say everything in the New Yorker sucks, just a certain taste that distinguished weekly has left in so many of our mouths. Or perhaps the "Addonizio School"? It's not unprecedented to classify a type of writing around one of its perpetrators--remember the fate of Edward George Bulwer-Lytton (http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/). Jim, I sympathize with your stand against bitterness. Bitterness, and its bedmate politics, characterize much of what happens in the world of poetry. At the same time I really don't like bad poetry, lazy garbage that would nevertheless (those of us MFA grads know) succeed in a poetry workshop. Reading this Bialosky poem, I can hear the groans of approval... -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:32:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem In-Reply-To: from "K. Silem Mohammad" at Sep 10, 2002 09:57:56 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kasey, thanks for taking the time to put your provocative thought and questions on e-paper. I wish I had more time to respond with equal force! But I'll at least get a few quick thoughts down here b/c it's an interesting discussion that I hope will continue: 1. I guess I would want to question this idea of generic-ness. I think your Ashbery analogy may confuse the issue unnecessarily. I see Ashbery's claim to being "generic" as a bit of a canard: for Ashbery "generic" is a quality, a sound, a style; he's representative only in his uniqueness. And in a strange twist, it turns out that Kim Addonizio is the one whose *language* is "representative" - i.e., it looks like a lot of other language you've seen. And that's the issue for me: that Addonizio's claim to be telling us about an actual experience simply doesn't hold water. She no doubt *had* an experience, but the poem itself is just a formula, like what the cops give you to get an accident reported/narrated properly. As a reader, my response is one of utter familiarity - and not just because I've a read a gadzillion poems like this one but because it's in the neighborhood of one's everyday habitual retellings of the "significant" events of one's life. In contrast, the uniqueness, eccentricity, peculiarity, whatever, of Ashbery's writing creates a situation where reading itself is the experience, inter-acting with words and spaces on the page and, yes, with some transtemporal writing-Ashbery. An utterly different experience, seems to me. Last thing: I think prose should be defined more clearly here. "reads like prose" means "reads like autobiographical, memoirish, standard-English prose" right? This is important since Joyce's or Stein's or Ralph Ellison's or Nate Mackey's or Emerson's etcetc prose couldn't be more different from the "like prose" in that "Perloff" sense. Incidentally, this is where Silliamn's discussion of making prose function like poetry in The New Sentence is *very* helpful. Okay, -m. According to K. Silem Mohammad: > > on 9/10/02 6:54 PM, J Gallaher at Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU wrote: > > > First, I don't believe there is a thing called an "Iowa Poem" since the poem > > described by this term is not usually from an Iowa graduate. What one means > > by this term, I think, is a personal/autobiographical poem, usually of a > > domestic scene, in which someone learns and is comforted by an assertion of > > the order of things. This is also called the "workshop" poem. Right? > > > > Here's an example, taken at random, by Kim Addonizio. I have no idea where > > she went to school. But I know that she did go to school. Took plenty of > > workshops. > > > > For Sleep > > My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries > > they'll crawl over her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sleeping > > she dreams they do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, > > crying while I try to soothe her. I tell her > > how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside > > where one has strung a glistening web under a beam > > in the narrow walkway between our house and the next, > > a sight she actually does find beautiful--but the spider, > > hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, > > she cringes from. I take down a book to show her drawings: > > crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider dragging her egg sac > > into the long grass. I teach her spinnerets, > > those makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, > > the suffocated housefly bundled in white threads. > > She understands the poison, the devouring mate, > > how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. > > She wakes up alone, can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, > > the small malevolence that seeks her out; again > > she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, > > and I hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep. > > This is about as perfect an example of a mainstream American "workshop" poem > as one could hope to find, and as such, it's a useful object to examine, > with an eye to the specific belly marks that distinguish it as belonging to > that genus. > > The first critical voice I imagine responding to it is one that sounds > something like Marjorie Perloff, commenting on the arbitrariness of its line > breaks (though there does seem to be a breath-based prosodic design), the > ease with which it could be converted to prose, with no appreciable loss of > ordered structural tension. Let's see what that would look like: > > ---- > > My daughter's terrified of spiders; at night she worries they'll crawl over > her while she's sleeping, and sometimes when she's sleeping she dreams they > do, and wakes up and runs to my bed, crying while I try to soothe her. I > tell her how they're sacred to some Indian tribes, I take her outside where > one has strung a glistening web under a beam in the narrow walkway between > our house and the next, a sight she actually does find beautiful--but the > spider, hanging there, swaying a little in the breeze, she cringes from. I > take down a book to show her drawings: crab spider, orb-weaver, wolf spider > dragging her egg sac into the long grass. I teach her spinnerets, those > makers of silk. But soon she knows tarantula, black widow, the suffocated > housefly bundled in white threads. She understands the poison, the devouring > mate, how love is less than the slimmest spun strand. She wakes up alone, > can feel the tiny legs ticking across her cheek, the small malevolence that > seeks her out; again she runs to my bed, and burrows in beside me, and I > hold her until she quiets, and we wait together for sleep. > > ---- > > Sure enough, there's precious little difference; it's somewhat rhetorically > flowery, but no more so than a lot of short fiction that's out there. Any > noticeable formal patterns that are lost seem to be accidental, or at least > inscrutable ones, such as the three-letter words that begin the poem's last > seven lines. Many lines do end with relatively vivid images ("spider," "egg > sac," "black widow," "cheek," etc.), but quite a few don't as well > ("outside," "next," "again," "me," etc.). The Perloff-critic, after > denuding the poem in this way, might go on to ask why the poet did not just > write it in prose in the first place. > > Of course, one might do the same thing with an O'Hara poem, say, "Call Me": > > The eager note on my door said "Call me, > call when you get in!" so I quickly threw > a few tangerines into my overnight bag, > straightened my eyelids and shoulders, and > > headed straight for the door. It was autumn > by the time I got around the corner, oh all > unwilling to be either pertinent or bemused, but > the leaves were brighter than grass on the sidewalk! > > Funny, I thought, that the lights are on this late > and the hall door open; still up at this hour, a > champion jai-alai player like himself? Oh fie! > for shame! What a host, so zealous! And he was > > there in the hall, flat on a sheet of blood that > ran down the stairs. I did appreciate it. There are few > hosts who so thoroughly prepare to greet a guest > only casually invited, and that several months ago. > > ---- > > which, de-strophed, becomes: > > ---- > > The eager note on my door said "Call me, call when you get in!" so I quickly > threw a few tangerines into my overnight bag, straightened my eyelids and > shoulders, and headed straight for the door. It was autumn by the time I > got around the corner, oh all unwilling to be either pertinent or bemused, > but the leaves were brighter than grass on the sidewalk! Funny, I thought, > that the lights are on this late and the hall door open; still up at this > hour, a champion jai-alai player like himself? Oh fie! for shame! What a > host, so zealous! And he was there in the hall, flat on a sheet of blood > that ran down the stairs. I did appreciate it. There are few hosts who so > thoroughly prepare to greet a guest only casually invited, and that several > months ago. > > ---- > > Again, the language is a little "strange," but no stranger than when it was > in verse; placement into measured(?) lines is not the source of the poem's > defamiliarized quality, but rather its pseudo-archaic diction ("oh all > unwilling," "fie," etc. So what's the difference, if any, between the > principle of lineation here and that of Addonizio's poem? Put another way, > does lineation necessarily perform or signal an integral structural ordering > in the way that my Perloff-critic (to whom I shall henceforth refer as > Critic X in order to avoid putting words in Marjorie's mouth) might insist > it should? Or might it acceptably, in some cases, be nothing more than a > neutral convention, like leaving margins on a page of prose, or drop-casing > the first letter of the first word of a paragraph for decorative effect? My > own tendency is to say that O'Hara's poem *does* benefit from its > line-breaks in some way the other poem doesn't it, but I can't quite explain > it. > > But anyway, Critic X chimes in, even if the lineation should prove to be > neither here nor there, O'Hara's poem does, as you say (Critic X is now > speaking directly to me--sorry if this is confusing), signal its poeticity > through the defamiliarizing use of unusual diction, whereas Addonizio's poem > is discursively generic--it could be spoken by any slightly-more-articulate- > than-average bourgeois mother out of thousands. > > One might then reply, however, that Addonizio's poem is compatible with > Ashbery's goal for his own poems: that they be "representative," that they > enunciate a thought or statement that might be anybody's. > > But, says Critic X, the immediate transparency of the situation described in > Addonizio's poem militates against what Ashbery means by "representative." > His poems are representative of experience in the sense that they represent > it without representing any *particular* experience. They are, like, > meta-experiences. This poem, on the other hand, takes an already familiar > experience--a parent's epiphany that it is not always possible to soothe > children's fears through reasoned explanation, because sometimes children's > innate apprehension of horror is more profoundly sensitive than any rational > tonic--and expresses it in controlled, conventionalized terms. > > And, ultimately, isn't that what it comes down to: the agon between the > referential and the poetic function, to use Jakobson's terms? (I've dropped > Critic X now and am just speaking for myself, to you, all of you out there.) > There are some readers who want poems first and foremost to be "about" > something, and there are others who want them first and foremost to be > *made* a certain way. Addonizio has her own view on this (I got this from > an interview on the web, using Google): "I think there¹s a real place for > narrative in poetry. I don¹t think that fiction has to be the only place > where you find story telling. Poets have always told stories, so I do often > like to tell stories in my poems, but not always. And I think the > difference would be that in a poem it¹s very condensed, quick, and you > usually jump into the heart of the matter pretty quickly. The narrative is > there to serve that thing that you want to talk about." She doesn't seem > particularly concerned, as I tend to be, and I'm sure many others on this > list are, with fancy Russian-formalist-type ideas about foregrounding verbal > elements that deform the primary reference or whatever. She wants to get > her idea across, and for her, poetry is just as valid a medium for doing > that as prose, and it's not necessarily any different from prose in its > basic *kind*--only in its level of concentration. That view doesn't enjoy a > lot of currency in any poetic theory that gets taught in academic circles > (when it gets taught at all), but hell, it's a view. > > She says in the same interview, when asked "Do you consider yourself to be > part of a specific school of poetry (i.e. Romanticism)?" that what she is > trying to do is "just write about being alive. I wouldn¹t call myself a > post-modernist, however, so maybe I¹m some other strain of poetry, maybe > neo-Romantic [laughs]. I¹m interested in feeling, in communication, being > pretty central to the poem and that¹s not the project of post-modernism." > Certainly this is an unfair categorization of much postmodernism. But is it > any more slanted or exaggerated than much of the anti-mainstream rhetoric > that gets routinely thrown around? > > I'm not saying I think "For Sleep" is a great poem, or that I would buy > Addonizio's book. Nor am I saying that I subscribe to her "just another way > to say something" poetics. I'm just saying that I can't in good conscience > claim that my way of evaluating and thinking about poetry is more "right" > than hers. It really seems to be a matter of preference. I'm not even sure > that in this poem "someone learns and is comforted by an assertion of the > order of things." If anything, the message is pretty bleak. The only > comfort comes from the fragile embrace between mother and daughter, which > seems to be presented as an embrace in the middle of a big scary dark > spider-infested pit. In short, there may be reasons for taking exception to > the world view implied by this poem on ideological grounds, but I don't know > that any such reasons can be subsumed under anything like a comprehensive > set of *formal* ("constructive"?) principles. > > Or maybe they can? Thoughts? > > Kasey > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:39:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: the state of this list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I fluctuate between complete consternation with the sullen moves of this list and a resigned, lethargic delete-fest to cleanse my inbox and soul of its frequently dim and cruel posts. There are poets here to respect, many who remain very quiet. To dive in this mosh-pit is often to dance with fools. When will some on this list be finished being lazy snobs? It's like that band who never got over opening for Nirvana, as Nick Hornby might write. The stagnancy here is astounding. If your favorite 10 poets are the same as they were 10 years ago, you have a problem. If you're more interested in creating and defending acronyms than in creating and defending innovative work, that's a problem. Many people are here just to naysay and bitch, adding nothing to daily life here other than to underline they're own ill-lit perceptions. Why must the creepy turf wars of former generations of poets be passed down and taught like scripture? Is it possible for poets to actually be more than a category--can we surprise and be surprised as work is encountered? Aaron, must we coin phrases to belittle poems? If work isn't interesting, why discuss it here? Couldn't we write about the poets that do compel, shake and rattle us? I respect you and your work a lot. Must we continually sweat the National Book Awards, as if they meant anything other than a nice check? As tiresome and predictable as some responses to posts have become, it feels like there's an opportunity now to change. I'd say there are only a handful of moaners, content to toss their disappointments and miseries as far as they can type. But there are many more here, those folks are completely outnumbered. I'm curious to hear from people about this. What can this list be? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NEW AND ON VIEW: MUDLARK NO. 21 (2002) The Price of Water in Los Angeles An Electronic Chapbook by R. D. Girard "R. D. Girard lives in Washington and Los Angeles and writes poems when he can't sleep at night." If They Come in the Morning Chuck Taylor's All Stars Birth Rights The Price of Water in Los Angeles Fortunate Son No Particular Place to Go Video Killed the Radio Star You Gotta Start Somewhere And Then He Kissed Me I'll See You in My Dreams Ghost Riders in the Sky Property Tax Blowback Til Her Daddy Takes Her T-Bird Away Crew Cut The Real Deal Breakfast at the Marion Motley All-Star Cafe Mean Streets Ground Control to Major Tom Havana Moon Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:46:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jim, I'm glad you like my poems; as you know, I endorse your whole project. CWHOBB has opened up whole landscapes of possibility for me. Pardon me, however, while I --- It seems ironic that you call our attention to "the state of things" -- how things are bad & could be better. Why don't you post something positive? I.e., ignore that which you perceive to be negative & harmful? aha, it's not that easy, is it. My only intention in posting poems that are textbook-awful is to say--to say again--something is rotten in the state of Po-mark. It seems we are saying the same thing to different ends, however. Jim, I'll offer you a wager. You don't criticize the "state of this list" or call people lazy, mean, dumb, snobby, etc., and I will check all *my* remarks to make sure they are about "the poets that do compel, shake and rattle" me, or other things that turn me on. But for every one of your metacommentaries about this list, I get to attack something of my choosing. Do it, Jim! This is your chance to carry a fella out of the fire on your back! I'm serious, -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: where the V sits at the v of virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Beautiful & adequate peace or exaggeration, Virginia my dream is punished with entertainments, Qui refroidit mon sang vers sa source, they were not at all lured - though even the tomb succumbs to enigma - by flowers in place of a point-of-view. Nuances struggle against white roses - while you, Virginia, misheard "harnessed" for "powerless." When the end-word was repeated I imagined it Capitalized. In this flight from lions, the detour is subterranean and we meet Eurydice coming up alone to be devoured. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:58:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Iowa In-Reply-To: <002801c2599e$e95b8830$21d3bed0@belzjones1500.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable not that i wanna weigh in with trashing poets or poetry. but i actually LIKE "Bad" poetry, and this aint it. this addonizio stuff is neither very bad nor very good, it's not interesting in any way. in the spider poem, which is completely banal, i expected a killer-diller last line to redeem it; this is something this type of lyric poetry often relies on-- a punch-line to redeem its previous overly talky exposition. but the last line was the lamest of all. nothing interesting in the language, and the only thing i cd get from it, in terms of content, was that, hm, mother shares some of daughter's anxiety about the natural world of love and sex and relationship that is obviously writ large in the foregoing. so what. i don't see anyone taking any risks here; this isn't "deceptively simple" --it's blatantly simplistic; it seems made to order for an eighth grade class of 50 years ago just learning the basics of "reading for larger meaning." as for the poems below, i can't believe anyone can use the phrase "dark continent" without some knowledge of historical context, and that someone would try to write an ode to a red dress that so lacks the energy that would have to be its sine qua non or its raison d'etre. however, there are a lot of poets associated w/ iowa who can and have done much better. i can't think of any right now, cuz i do't care about that type of stuff. again, i love bad poetry --or what others here would call bad poetry -- but it's got to be interesting. At 9:24 AM -0500 9/11/02, Aaron Belz wrote: > > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State >> University. > > >Jim, > >The idea was to abstract the "Iowa School" concept from the actual >university; it's >merely a shorthand for poems that seem like they were whittled in >the oldest and most >distinguished workshop in the world. As someone said-- domestic >scenes with lessons >embedded in them. Hence Kim Addonizio. I hope no one will take >umbrage, especially >not my good friend Cate (who studied *fiction* at Iowa, by the way; >her poetry MFA >came from Houston) or Rebecca Wolff or Matt Rohrer (go Fence!) or >*any* of that >school's fine alumni. > >But back to Kim Addonizio. She was a finalist for the National Book Award: > > >"What Do Women Want?" > >I want a red dress. >I want it flimsy and cheap, >I want it too tight, I want to wear it >until someone tears it off me. >I want it sleeveless and backless, >this dress, so no one has to guess >what's underneath. I want to walk down >the street past Thrifty's and the hardware store >with all those keys glittering in the window, >past Mr. and Mrs. Wong selling day-old >donuts in their caf=E9, past the Guerra brothers >slinging pigs from the truck and onto the dolly, >hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders. >I want to walk like I'm the only >woman on earth and I can have my pick. >I want that red dress bad. >I want it to confirm >your worst fears about me, >to show you how little I care about you >or anything except what >I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment >from its hanger like I'm choosing a body >to carry me into this world, through >the birth-cries and the love-cries too, >and I'll wear it like bones, like skin, >it'll be the goddamned >dress they bury me in. > > >Mermaid Song > for Aya at fifteen > >Damp-haired from the bath, you drape yourself >upside down across the sofa, reading, >one hand idly sunk into a bowl >of crackers, goldfish with smiles stamped on. >I think they are growing gills, swimming >up the sweet air to reach you. Small girl, >my slim miracle, they multiply. >In the black hours when I lie sleepless, >near drowning, dread-heavy, your face >is the bright lure I look for, love's hook >piercing me, hauling me cleanly up. > > > >Reading these poems, I was shocked. Shocked because I am a snob? >If not wanting to >be known as a finalist for the National Book Award after reading >these makes me a >snob, then yes. Kim is from San Fran, of course, but Iowa M.F.A. >grads are not >immune to the insidious Workshop Poem a la Addonizio. Clicking around in = the >Academy of American Poets yielded Jill Bialosky, who actually did go >to University of >Iowa-- > > >Fathers in the Snow > >After father died >the love was all through the house >untamed and sometimes violent. >When the dates came we went up to our rooms >and mother entertained. >Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night," >the smell of Chanel No.5 in her hair and the laughter. >We sat crouched at the top of the stairs. >In the morning we found mother asleep on the couch >her hair messed, and the smell >of stale liquor in the room. >We knelt on the floor before her, >one by one touched our fingers >over the red flush in her face. >The chipped sunlight through the shutters. >It was a dark continent >we and mother shared; >it was sweet and lonesome, >the wake men left in our house. > > > >By the way, her book was published by Knopf. She's now an editor at Norto= n. >http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=3D243 > >I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with Jim in principle-- >there's no need to >pick on one program. Why don't we call it the "Knopf Poem"? We >used to use the >phrase "New Yorker Poem" -- that's not to say everything in the New >Yorker sucks, >just a certain taste that distinguished weekly has left in so many >of our mouths. Or >perhaps the "Addonizio School"? It's not unprecedented to classify >a type of writing >around one of its perpetrators--remember the fate of Edward George >Bulwer-Lytton >(http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/). > >Jim, I sympathize with your stand against bitterness. Bitterness, >and its bedmate >politics, characterize much of what happens in the world of poetry. >At the same time >I really don't like bad poetry, lazy garbage that would nevertheless >(those of us MFA >grads know) succeed in a poetry workshop. Reading this Bialosky >poem, I can hear the >groans of approval... > >-Aaron -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: Beth Garrison Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Beth Garrison Subject: Re: Iowa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit honestly, i don't believe that good poetry necessarily comes out of workshops or that it takes an mfa to recognize good poetry. good poetry comes out of life, recognition from not only reading, but listening. peace, beth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:24 AM Subject: Re: Iowa > > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State > > University. > > > Jim, > > The idea was to abstract the "Iowa School" concept from the actual university; it's > merely a shorthand for poems that seem like they were whittled in the oldest and most > distinguished workshop in the world. As someone said-- domestic scenes with lessons > embedded in them. Hence Kim Addonizio. I hope no one will take umbrage, especially > not my good friend Cate (who studied *fiction* at Iowa, by the way; her poetry MFA > came from Houston) or Rebecca Wolff or Matt Rohrer (go Fence!) or *any* of that > school's fine alumni. > > But back to Kim Addonizio. She was a finalist for the National Book Award: > > > "What Do Women Want?" > > I want a red dress. > I want it flimsy and cheap, > I want it too tight, I want to wear it > until someone tears it off me. > I want it sleeveless and backless, > this dress, so no one has to guess > what's underneath. I want to walk down > the street past Thrifty's and the hardware store > with all those keys glittering in the window, > past Mr. and Mrs. Wong selling day-old > donuts in their café, past the Guerra brothers > slinging pigs from the truck and onto the dolly, > hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders. > I want to walk like I'm the only > woman on earth and I can have my pick. > I want that red dress bad. > I want it to confirm > your worst fears about me, > to show you how little I care about you > or anything except what > I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment > from its hanger like I'm choosing a body > to carry me into this world, through > the birth-cries and the love-cries too, > and I'll wear it like bones, like skin, > it'll be the goddamned > dress they bury me in. > > > Mermaid Song > for Aya at fifteen > > Damp-haired from the bath, you drape yourself > upside down across the sofa, reading, > one hand idly sunk into a bowl > of crackers, goldfish with smiles stamped on. > I think they are growing gills, swimming > up the sweet air to reach you. Small girl, > my slim miracle, they multiply. > In the black hours when I lie sleepless, > near drowning, dread-heavy, your face > is the bright lure I look for, love's hook > piercing me, hauling me cleanly up. > > > > Reading these poems, I was shocked. Shocked because I am a snob? If not wanting to > be known as a finalist for the National Book Award after reading these makes me a > snob, then yes. Kim is from San Fran, of course, but Iowa M.F.A. grads are not > immune to the insidious Workshop Poem a la Addonizio. Clicking around in the > Academy of American Poets yielded Jill Bialosky, who actually did go to University of > Iowa-- > > > Fathers in the Snow > > After father died > the love was all through the house > untamed and sometimes violent. > When the dates came we went up to our rooms > and mother entertained. > Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night," > the smell of Chanel No.5 in her hair and the laughter. > We sat crouched at the top of the stairs. > In the morning we found mother asleep on the couch > her hair messed, and the smell > of stale liquor in the room. > We knelt on the floor before her, > one by one touched our fingers > over the red flush in her face. > The chipped sunlight through the shutters. > It was a dark continent > we and mother shared; > it was sweet and lonesome, > the wake men left in our house. > > > > By the way, her book was published by Knopf. She's now an editor at Norton. > http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=243 > > I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with Jim in principle-- there's no need to > pick on one program. Why don't we call it the "Knopf Poem"? We used to use the > phrase "New Yorker Poem" -- that's not to say everything in the New Yorker sucks, > just a certain taste that distinguished weekly has left in so many of our mouths. Or > perhaps the "Addonizio School"? It's not unprecedented to classify a type of writing > around one of its perpetrators--remember the fate of Edward George Bulwer-Lytton > (http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/). > > Jim, I sympathize with your stand against bitterness. Bitterness, and its bedmate > politics, characterize much of what happens in the world of poetry. At the same time > I really don't like bad poetry, lazy garbage that would nevertheless (those of us MFA > grads know) succeed in a poetry workshop. Reading this Bialosky poem, I can hear the > groans of approval... > > -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Idiolect6 preview: Alan Sondheim's 911 Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As a small preview to the upcoming Idiolect 6, and a homage to the September 11 tragedies, Idiolect proudly offers Alan Sondheim's e-book 911: http://www.lewislacook.com/idiolect/idiolect6/sondheim.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:24:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Iowa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My experience with workshops has been only tangential, however this = experience has led me to one (I think) generally accurate conclusion: = that the workshop model fails to obtain the rigor of a "poetics" model = (as pursued by Buffalo, Temple, and probably some MFA programs, maybe = Brown?). That is to say, I've never found a workshop that can = articulate (nor that recognizes the need to articulate) the critical = values upon which they exist, i.e. what is "good work" as opposed to = "bad work" - Such determinations are self-evident, it seems, to MFA = programs modeled on some arbitrary interpretation of modernist / imagist = poetics. =20 Iowa is a red flag term, but anyone who's spent time in Iowa City, as I = have, couldn't possibly, or couldn't imagine one possibly, extending = such generalizations any further than some such distinction between = self-evidence and self-consciousness. Unfortunately, the former = frequently disguises as the latter. Why is that? [Incidentally, I = would expect this question to be of they type crucial to discussions on = this "poetics" list, as evidenced by Kasey and Mike's recent exchange. = That it's often not is just one reason I don't turn up here myself at = times.] Let me just add to the list of poets doing "good work" (i.e., critically = engaged writing) and having spent time in the Iowa workshop: Jen Hofer = and Summi Kaipa. Both have work at the Kenning website: = www.durationpress.com/kenning Patrick F. Durgin ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:34:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable FALL WRITING WORKSHOPS AT THE POETRY PROJECT *** The workshop fee is $300, which includes tuition for classes and an "individual" membership in the Poetry Project for one year. Reservations ar= e required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance= . Please send payment and reservations (include your address, phone number an= d email) to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674-0910, or email: poproj@poetryproject.com *** COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: A WRITING WORKSHOP - ANNE WALDMAN TUESDAYS AT 7 pm: 4 sessions, October 22nd - November 12th Waldman writes, "It is not safety but the unevenness of life that allows artistic breakthrough. Shaky ground is best when trying to find new ways to walk. In this workshop, we will play with rhizomic collage, hypnologic states, investigate living in the "eternal war" zone, perform cross-genre experimentation & vocalize cultural intervention. Texts for study & respons= e will be provided." Anne Waldman is the author of over 30 books including, most recently, Vow t= o Poetry: Essays, Interviews & Manifestos (Coffee House Press) and Marriage: = A Sentence (Penguin Poets). *** THE POET IN THE WORLD - JAIME MANRIQUE FRIDAYS AT 7 pm: 10 sessions, beginning October 18 Manrique describes "The Poet in the World" as "a workshop for students interested in writing poems that extend beyond the realm of autobiography. We will look at the works of poets such as Walt Whitman, Octavio Paz, Pablo Neruda, Cavafy, Wislawa Szymborska, Ceslaw Milosz, Agha Shahid Ali, Tomas Salamun and others whose imagination is deeply personal but also rooted in politics, history, and issues of national identity. Students will be asked to write in specific forms such as insult poems, satire, etc." Jaime Manrique's titles include the novels Colombian Gold, Latin Moon in Manhattan, and Twilight at the Equator and poetry titles My Night with Federico Garc=EDa Lorca; Tarzan, My Body, Christopher Columbus; and Sor Juana=B9s Love Poems, co-translated with Joan Larkin. *** WORKSHOP - RENEE GLADMAN SATURDAYS AT 12 PM: 10 sessions, beginning October 12 Gladman describes her workshop: "In this class we will write toward the middle, that terrain between poetry and fiction where the shape and tone of the line or sentence is as much an idea about narrative as are the notions of time, place, and character. Through a series of in-class writing exercises and discussions the class will imagine and test out those perspectives of storytelling that work against conventional assumptions of linear progression, authentic voice, and resolution." Renee Gladman is the author of Juice (Kelsey St. Press), and two chapbooks= , Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). Former editor o= f Clamour, she is currently editor of the chapbook imprint, Leroy. *** SURREALISM AND AUTOMATIC WRITING - JANET HAMILL TUESDAYS AT 7 pm: 4 sessions, November 19th =AD December 10th The writers and painters of Surrealism drew their imagery from dreams, and other non-rational states, and practiced automatism. This workshop will examine the climate in which the movement was born, its philosophy, the wor= k of some of its chief predecessors and proponents, and its continued relevance. Workshop participants will have the opportunity to investigate Surrealist techniques and make their own attempts at automatic writing. Janet Hamill is the author of four books of poetry and short fiction: Lost Ceilings, Nostalgia of the Infinite, The Temple, and Troublante. Flying Nowhere, her first full-length spoken word CD, with the music of Moving Star, was released in 2001.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:15:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: The French Face of Virginia Poe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Todschwester, cecini, pascua, rura, duces a poem is born not made, any circles impartially virtue I was moved to go and speak to one of the wickedest men, a drunkard, a whoremonger, & a rhyme-maker, and I reproved him in the dread of the almighty God, and I reproved him for his evil courses George the first hates all boets and bainters live with the muses and die in the straw though fair words break never bone, though never's a long word a long day for a lamp of unknown prolongation I can show the point its old favor, its cloaked bewitching dropped its business a little short, relied the probability, added conjecture, acceptance, and what wild surmise but drew certain and precarious engagement to my heart _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:15:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Chain & alphabetizing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Ron, I've been reading & enjoying your blog over the last week or so, and I wanted to comment about Chain and alphabetizing. I understand what you're saying about how alphabetizing removes editorial narrative (the "unfolding of meaning over time"), and I can't speak for Juliana & Jena, but ... here's my own take, for whatever it's worth. There are times when reading linearly produces incredible results--I think it was John Thorpe's Five Aces & Independence that I first read my usual way, here and there, and then read straight through to very different (and much richer) effect. But there usually isn't much in the way of payoff, for me, going through systematically, even a collection of poems that has been carefully ordered by someone. I mean, very generally, I tend to skip around a lot *because* the order really isn't so compelling to me, even in cases when I can see it. I don't know if that's a disservice to writers & editors, but there is always that resistance for me. And I think for others, too; Jack Kimball and I ordered my own book How to Proceed very consciously--but my sense is that people who read it mostly weren't conscious of that, or read it in their own order producing their own threads/echoes. I don't have any more copies of Chain 8 Comics (I gave mine all away), but looking over the TOC, I'm not sure how it could have been put together to greater narrative effect *with the material that is included*. I suspect that had Juliana & Jena ordered things to begin with it would have resulted in an entirely different selection of material. That they would have wound up dumping some, maybe many, of the pieces in there--and the result would have been less loose, more focused, less open-ended, and my suspicion is, less interesting, finally, or in any case not what makes Chain, for me, most interesting. What I like most about Chain is its very expansiveness--which I suspect might not be possible with a more aggressive editorial style. Anyway. The Comics issue opens with a poetry comic collaboration by Jonathan Allen & John Coletti, which seems, actually, to be just the right opening--as what the issue really is, for me, is a meeting ground between various writers, comics artists and others all working through the medium, or ideas about the medium, or who are inspired by same, etc. So a collab seems just right to open things up. But, yeah, I'm reading that meaning into it. Similarly: I loved how Joe Brainard & Robert Creeley's collab (a kind of pastiche/spoof of I think it was a Harvard Alumni magazine) is followed up by F. C. Brandt, Peter S. Conrad, & Rob R.'s collaborative comic about life in prison--there's a kind of echoing going on there for me. I suppose that overall the issue is fairly chaotic going through it piece by piece--though, I do think that people will bring their own meaning to or derive their own meaning from the order as it stands, if they look at it linearly--which the alphabetical ordering would seem to discourage. At least, as I go back to the TOC now and remember what those pieces are, and think of them one after the other, I find that I'm creating these threads/echoes where none were (specifically) intended. I think what you say about how a journal is "best gauged by the writers whom it brings forward to broader audiences" is interesting and I can see what you mean, but I disagree, at least with that word "best." I don't for instance associate any handful of filmmakers with Film Culture nor a couple of writers with Temblor--it's *the way in which they support and expand their community of artists* or *how they bring the people & work in them into dialog with each other* that made them, for me, really great journals, made them what they were. Likewise, what made HOW(ever) really great, for me, was not what it may have done for Lorine Niedecker's reception, though that's great too, but what it did for the reception of innovative writing by women generally. (I actually don't associate any specific writers with it, or at least not just three or four--I associate more I guess a whole tendency of writing.) Anyway--thanks for the interesting blogs--I love blogs (they're one of my new favorite genres) and am especially happy to see poets starting them up. The blog on Sherry's Our Nuclear Heritage was really great, btw ... did anyone ever figure out if it's still in print & available through Sun & Moon? I'd love to get my hands on a copy ... Gary _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:16:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Chain & alphabetizing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Ron, I've been reading & enjoying your blog over the last week or so, and I wanted to comment about Chain and alphabetizing. I understand what you're saying about how alphabetizing removes editorial narrative (the "unfolding of meaning over time"), and I can't speak for Juliana & Jena, but ... here's my own take, for whatever it's worth. There are times when reading linearly produces incredible results--I think it was John Thorpe's Five Aces & Independence that I first read my usual way, here and there, and then read straight through to very different (and much richer) effect. But there usually isn't much in the way of payoff, for me, going through systematically, even a collection of poems that has been carefully ordered by someone. I mean, very generally, I tend to skip around a lot *because* the order really isn't so compelling to me, even in cases when I can see it. I don't know if that's a disservice to writers & editors, but there is always that resistance for me. And I think for others, too; Jack Kimball and I ordered my own book How to Proceed very consciously--but my sense is that people who read it mostly weren't conscious of that, or read it in their own order producing their own threads/echoes. I don't have any more copies of Chain 8 Comics (I gave mine all away), but looking over the TOC, I'm not sure how it could have been put together to greater narrative effect *with the material that is included*. I suspect that had Juliana & Jena ordered things to begin with it would have resulted in an entirely different selection of material. That they would have wound up dumping some, maybe many, of the pieces in there--and the result would have been less loose, more focused, less open-ended, and my suspicion is, less interesting, finally, or in any case not what makes Chain, for me, most interesting. What I like most about Chain is its very expansiveness--which I suspect might not be possible with a more aggressive editorial style. Anyway. The Comics issue opens with a poetry comic collaboration by Jonathan Allen & John Coletti, which seems, actually, to be just the right opening--as what the issue really is, for me, is a meeting ground between various writers, comics artists and others all working through the medium, or ideas about the medium, or who are inspired by same, etc. So a collab seems just right to open things up. But, yeah, I'm reading that meaning into it. Similarly: I loved how Joe Brainard & Robert Creeley's collab (a kind of pastiche/spoof of I think it was a Harvard Alumni magazine) is followed up by F. C. Brandt, Peter S. Conrad, & Rob R.'s collaborative comic about life in prison--there's a kind of echoing going on there for me. I suppose that overall the issue is fairly chaotic going through it piece by piece--though, I do think that people will bring their own meaning to or derive their own meaning from the order as it stands, if they look at it linearly--which the alphabetical ordering would seem to discourage. At least, as I go back to the TOC now and remember what those pieces are, and think of them one after the other, I find that I'm creating these threads/echoes where none were (specifically) intended. I think what you say about how a journal is "best gauged by the writers whom it brings forward to broader audiences" is interesting and I can see what you mean, but I disagree, at least with that word "best." I don't for instance associate any handful of filmmakers with Film Culture nor a couple of writers with Temblor--it's *the way in which they support and expand their community of artists* or *how they bring the people & work in them into dialog with each other* that made them, for me, really great journals, made them what they were. Likewise, what made HOW(ever) really great, for me, was not what it may have done for Lorine Niedecker's reception, though that's great too, but what it did for the reception of innovative writing by women generally. (I actually don't associate any specific writers with it, or at least not just three or four--I associate more I guess a whole tendency of writing.) Anyway--thanks for the interesting blogs--I love blogs (they're one of my new favorite genres) and am especially happy to see poets starting them up. The blog on Sherry's Our Nuclear Heritage was really great, btw ... did anyone ever figure out if it's still in print & available through Sun & Moon? I'd love to get my hands on a copy ... Gary _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:40:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: Re: Idiolect6 preview: Alan Sondheim's 911 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit congrat alan and lewis! cheers, augie www.litob.com www.amazon-salon.com www.atlantic-ploughshares.com www.thebookburningdepartment.com www.thebrainjuicepress.com www.antigenreelitecorps.com www.inkbombdisposalunit.com www.post-mortem-telepathic-society.com www.pornalisa.com www.digital-media-generation.com www.newliteraryunderground.com www.textmodificationstudio.com www.advancedliterarysciences.com www.cultureanimal.com www.muse-apprentice-guild.com www.literaturebuzz.com www.bookcrazed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:19 AM Subject: Idiolect6 preview: Alan Sondheim's 911 > As a small preview to the upcoming Idiolect 6, and a homage to the September 11 tragedies, Idiolect proudly offers Alan Sondheim's e-book 911: > > http://www.lewislacook.com/idiolect/idiolect6/sondheim.html > > > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! - We Remember > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:45:13 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: FW: COMING TO A ZINC BAR NEAR YOU ! In-Reply-To: <517FA14C1A28D411BBA300508B63564403DB5E06@BINNYCEXC002> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this is a great idea! any other interesting programming? at the lexiconjury series it's one original and one cover. looking for ideas always here on the rock. kevin > We're Back. > > & we even have a few readings scheduled. > > September 15 OPEN MIC--well why not? > > THE RULES: since more than half the fun of the Zinc Bar is wondering what > i'm [Douglas Rothschild is] going to say, this is how it (OPEN MIC) > works--bring 5 short poems (nothing over one page) find someone standing > around or something before the reading--hand them the 5 poems, they will > read the five, select 3 and then when your turn comes round, they will > introduce you. > > NO EXCEPTIONS... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:01:14 -0700 Reply-To: rova@rova.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: BAD Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Blue Room welcomes the return of The Moving Target Series 2331 Mission St. btw 19th and 20th, San Francisco (415) 515-1210 for tix/ (415) 584-7415 for press www.blueroomgallery.org Wednesdays in September doors open 7:30pm, show at 8pm, $8-10 sliding scale September 18: BAD Poetasters and laity alike have endured the stultifying experience of a bad poetry reading at one time or another – and then there are those who’d say they’re all bad. But what happens when the Bay Area’s best poets convene to find out just how bad they can be? Sifting through their own notebooks as well as the annals of Literature, these poets promise to do their Worst. With Kevin Killian, Bill Berkson, Beth Lisick, Andrew Felsinger, Brent Cunningham, kari edwards, Norma Cole, Sean Finney, Susan Gevirtz, hosts Michael Smoler and David Hadbawnik, and more “bad” authors to come. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:59 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Iowa not that i wanna weigh in with trashing poets or poetry. but i actually LIKE "Bad" poetry, and this aint it. this addonizio stuff is neither very bad nor very good, it's not interesting in any way. in the spider poem, which is completely banal, i expected a killer-diller last line to redeem it; this is something this type of lyric poetry often relies on-- a punch-line to redeem its previous overly talky exposition. but the last line was the lamest of all. nothing interesting in the language, and the only thing i cd get from it, in terms of content, was that, hm, mother shares some of daughter's anxiety about the natural world of love and sex and relationship that is obviously writ large in the foregoing. so what. i don't see anyone taking any risks here; this isn't "deceptively simple" --it's blatantly simplistic; it seems made to order for an eighth grade class of 50 years ago just learning the basics of "reading for larger meaning." as for the poems below, i can't believe anyone can use the phrase "dark continent" without some knowledge of historical context, and that someone would try to write an ode to a red dress that so lacks the energy that would have to be its sine qua non or its raison d'etre. however, there are a lot of poets associated w/ iowa who can and have done much better. i can't think of any right now, cuz i do't care about that type of stuff. again, i love bad poetry --or what others here would call bad poetry -- but it's got to be interesting. At 9:24 AM -0500 9/11/02, Aaron Belz wrote: > > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State >> University. > > >Jim, > >The idea was to abstract the "Iowa School" concept from the actual >university; it's >merely a shorthand for poems that seem like they were whittled in >the oldest and most >distinguished workshop in the world. As someone said-- domestic >scenes with lessons >embedded in them. Hence Kim Addonizio. I hope no one will take >umbrage, especially >not my good friend Cate (who studied *fiction* at Iowa, by the way; >her poetry MFA >came from Houston) or Rebecca Wolff or Matt Rohrer (go Fence!) or >*any* of that >school's fine alumni. > >But back to Kim Addonizio. She was a finalist for the National Book Award: > > >"What Do Women Want?" > >I want a red dress. >I want it flimsy and cheap, >I want it too tight, I want to wear it >until someone tears it off me. >I want it sleeveless and backless, >this dress, so no one has to guess >what's underneath. I want to walk down >the street past Thrifty's and the hardware store >with all those keys glittering in the window, >past Mr. and Mrs. Wong selling day-old >donuts in their café, past the Guerra brothers >slinging pigs from the truck and onto the dolly, >hoisting the slick snouts over their shoulders. >I want to walk like I'm the only >woman on earth and I can have my pick. >I want that red dress bad. >I want it to confirm >your worst fears about me, >to show you how little I care about you >or anything except what >I want. When I find it, I'll pull that garment >from its hanger like I'm choosing a body >to carry me into this world, through >the birth-cries and the love-cries too, >and I'll wear it like bones, like skin, >it'll be the goddamned >dress they bury me in. > > >Mermaid Song > for Aya at fifteen > >Damp-haired from the bath, you drape yourself >upside down across the sofa, reading, >one hand idly sunk into a bowl >of crackers, goldfish with smiles stamped on. >I think they are growing gills, swimming >up the sweet air to reach you. Small girl, >my slim miracle, they multiply. >In the black hours when I lie sleepless, >near drowning, dread-heavy, your face >is the bright lure I look for, love's hook >piercing me, hauling me cleanly up. > > > >Reading these poems, I was shocked. Shocked because I am a snob? >If not wanting to >be known as a finalist for the National Book Award after reading >these makes me a >snob, then yes. Kim is from San Fran, of course, but Iowa M.F.A. >grads are not >immune to the insidious Workshop Poem a la Addonizio. Clicking around in the >Academy of American Poets yielded Jill Bialosky, who actually did go >to University of >Iowa-- > > >Fathers in the Snow > >After father died >the love was all through the house >untamed and sometimes violent. >When the dates came we went up to our rooms >and mother entertained. >Frank Sinatra's "Strangers in the Night," >the smell of Chanel No.5 in her hair and the laughter. >We sat crouched at the top of the stairs. >In the morning we found mother asleep on the couch >her hair messed, and the smell >of stale liquor in the room. >We knelt on the floor before her, >one by one touched our fingers >over the red flush in her face. >The chipped sunlight through the shutters. >It was a dark continent >we and mother shared; >it was sweet and lonesome, >the wake men left in our house. > > > >By the way, her book was published by Knopf. She's now an editor at Norton. >http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=243 > >I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with Jim in principle-- >there's no need to >pick on one program. Why don't we call it the "Knopf Poem"? We >used to use the >phrase "New Yorker Poem" -- that's not to say everything in the New >Yorker sucks, >just a certain taste that distinguished weekly has left in so many >of our mouths. Or >perhaps the "Addonizio School"? It's not unprecedented to classify >a type of writing >around one of its perpetrators--remember the fate of Edward George >Bulwer-Lytton >(http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/). > >Jim, I sympathize with your stand against bitterness. Bitterness, >and its bedmate >politics, characterize much of what happens in the world of poetry. >At the same time >I really don't like bad poetry, lazy garbage that would nevertheless >(those of us MFA >grads know) succeed in a poetry workshop. Reading this Bialosky >poem, I can hear the >groans of approval... > >-Aaron -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:58:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Frost, Corey" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Frost, Corey" Organization: CUNY Subject: Re: Reply to humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Richard Tylr, Beckett is perhaps the funniest playwright ever. The funniest theorist/philosopher I've ever read has got to be Slavoj Zizek, and although to my knowledge he doesn't address humour directly, his writing is steeped in his own humour theory (which is steeped in Freud and Lacan) and relies on humour as a tool. He's constantly making illustrative jokes (along with references to popular Hollywood flicks) and then performing psychoanalysis on the psyche of the joke. The Sublime Object of Ideology is a good read. Corey -- Corey Frost * 718-855-8042 * 135 Plymouth Ave. #309A, Brooklyn, NY 11201 cfrost@gc.cuny.edu Bits World: www.attcanada.ca/~coreyf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:26:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Behrle's Complaint In-Reply-To: <20020826123205.16419.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jim Behrle says / asks: I Reply: I believe you're missing the point of the list. This is the POETICS list. So we're charged with talking about poetry. Mostly what I see on this list is enthusiasm for poetry. I think disagrement on specific poetry and poems is healthy and should be encouraged. The "Iowa" poem (a term that neither Aaron nor I made up, and a term that I HATE [as I know several wonderful poets who hail from Iowa] but a term we're tried to deal with as Bob G. and rova asked in a previous post) should be talked about as well as other poems. I would suggest that if the tone of my post (all I did was post an example, as I was asked) offended you, then perhaps you could post something positive in response? Why don't you tell us about your favorite poem, perhaps? Then I promise I'll write about my favorite poem. I might even choose one from an Iowa grad. best, and positive to that last, JG ----------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:56:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: *** In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Just a quick graph before the minute of silence -- Ron, do you really >think the Green Party was responsible for the disenfranchisement of >America (any more than say Perot was responsible for the Clinton years or >John Anderson for morning in America)? > >Jordan Come on. In the USA you have two big parties that are to the right of center. You need some centrist voice such as the Greens. -- George Bowering Chile colorado, eh? Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:09:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Gallagher Subject: Re: Iowa In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Cheers to Behrle for smokin some of out of our holes for a re-evaluation. To be honest, for some time this list has been a good bulletin board of readings, new books and magazines, and occasionally insightful obituaries. The discussion is usually chatter, and not about poetics at all. But to each their own, its a free list and we can choose to not be on it, or to delete to our soul's content. That being said, how ironic that there is a call for content on September 11. What is poetry now? What is it ever? Might those be topics for discussion? As J. Laughlin said, "roller skates, roller skates its a bad bad world, whisk us all up to heaven if its still there." Kevin Gallagher Quoting Jim Behrle : > Kim Addonizio received her B.A. and M.A. from San Francisco State > University. Is being an Iowa poet some code here simply for writing lame > poems? If so, it's a seriously dopey one. Here are poems from 3 Iowa poets > I really like: > > > Toy Bed by Joyelle McSweeney > > The bobcat poses in a tripod of rifles. > The crown of the emperor penguin slips down halfway > over his eyes. Light shades down bluely from the ice cliff > > to the ice. Now this > is a salt marsh, but this can't have salt > or glass. The black wool beret is sodden and itches > and pushes my wet bangs down into my eyes > in little points. The field is flooded, floodened. > This has lost > > its ice and good light. I slipped into the channel. > my thin nylon jacket soaked through right away. > Mud pouched in snaky curls inside it. I stood up. > Is there still time to walk > > out, pitch a stick and read the current, fold back > the green felt cap, poke a feather through, remove > myself to higher ground? Inside the dry house, thinking. > What does the deer do, now, in the woods? He wears > > a too-huge stylized rack. It pulls his head back > black-lipped to the sky, or pulls his head down > and he must graze and brood. It pulls > his lips and makes him smile. It closes his eyes. > ------------------------------------------------- > > After the Last Fright by Cate Marvin > > > I carved upon my desk unsayables. > He drank until he vomited on himself. > Eavesdropping, the others resisted sleep. > The house knew the pain of sun on lacquered floorboards. > > I carved it with the tips of scissors. > A door creaked; he hung his head into the room. > Please, the others cannot sleep. > The shingles twitched like skin beneath moonlight. > > I spent the afternoon at a movie theater. > He staggered through brush toward a pay phone. > The others continued searching the streets for him. > The house held the moon above it, it was that imperial. > > I recall the room was empty when I came back in. > He was arrested at the QuikTrip while calling collect. > Frantic, the others circled the block again. > The house was ghost white, older than the dead. > > I needlepointed for 72 hours straight. > He claimed the whole situation humiliated him. > Relieved, the others refrained from asking him what jail was like. > The house was swan to field, tiger to sea. > > I lay in bed by the time the others came home. > He didn't recall putting on the orange jumpsuit. > The others asked if I'd seen him around. > The house shuddered, No-o-o-o. > > The house winced, winked its blinds. > The house whispered I should stay inside. > The others flew out the doors and into their cars. > The others slammed their cars into deer and cried. > > He was more humiliated than he'd ever been. > He looked more or less the same, though his eyes were ringed. > The others hid in the basement. > He climbed the stairs and presented a ring. > > The house swung its windows wide to ice. > He banged his nails blue, pinned his tongue to his tie. > He packed himself in a box, sent it to regions far off. > The others pressed their ears to the pipes. > > The house wore its flames like a hat. > The house called a radio talkshow. > We drank all night, laughed all night, the night he left. > I shook in its mouth till the house drank me up. > ------------------------------------------------- > > dana plato fatality by Rebecca Wolff > > Hungry for strangers > it's that time of the month > > Making funny faces in the mirror- > take it one step further and > Make funny shapes with your body in the mirror > > Pose as Shiva with your palms out toward the mirror > > Suffused with that irritant > Parroted internationally > > known as train wreck > > With oncoming blindness > With incoming invisible > > Hungry for appetite > it's that kind of collapsed conveyance > > fantasia of recall > unchecked with the poke of vestigial freckles > > it's unfortunately visible > > And she's crying in the mirror like a pornstar > > ------------------------------------------------- > > When will some of us here be finished being lazy snobs? It appalls me that > most thoughtful, dignified voices here are drowned out by the silly and > embittered. > > --Jim Behrle > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: *** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If only anarchists believed in voting. George Bowering wrote: > >Just a quick graph before the minute of silence -- Ron, do you really > >think the Green Party was responsible for the disenfranchisement of > >America (any more than say Perot was responsible for the Clinton years or > >John Anderson for morning in America)? > > > >Jordan > > Come on. In the USA you have two big parties that are to the right of > center. You need some centrist voice such as the Greens. > -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: *** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in hindsight, i'm finding it rather funny that nader's campaign website was hosted by a worldcom company... > > >Just a quick graph before the minute of silence -- Ron, do you really > > >think the Green Party was responsible for the disenfranchisement of > > >America (any more than say Perot was responsible for the Clinton years or > > >John Anderson for morning in America)? > > > > > >Jordan > > > > Come on. In the USA you have two big parties that are to the right of > > center. You need some centrist voice such as the Greens. > > -- > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:03:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: Re: *** In-Reply-To: <008e01c259dd$458d0730$aa0d0e44@vaio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:50 PM 9/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >in hindsight, i'm finding it rather funny that nader's campaign website was >hosted by a worldcom company... Just as amusing: a major method of Green grassroots campaigning, especially on college campuses, was flyers under windshield wipers. I still remember my campus littered weekly with thousands of Green party flyers spouting an environmentalist agenda. Brandon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: *** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's nothing that says an anarchist can't vote, though most anarchists don't. I vote Green because historically the European Greens have roots in Anarchism. I consider this a compromise. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:19 PM Subject: Re: *** > If only anarchists believed in voting. > > George Bowering wrote: > > > >Just a quick graph before the minute of silence -- Ron, do you really > > >think the Green Party was responsible for the disenfranchisement of > > >America (any more than say Perot was responsible for the Clinton years or > > >John Anderson for morning in America)? > > > > > >Jordan > > > > Come on. In the USA you have two big parties that are to the right of > > center. You need some centrist voice such as the Greens. > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:28:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Warning: OffTopic!!!! Answering Theory, Remembrance & ListRage with DirectAction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps the proper way to preface this mini-report is that we've had grapes planted here at DreamtimeVillage for more than 8 years. The first 5-6 years I was mistakenly under the impression that to grow grapes in a "PermacultureFashion" meant that one did not need to prune the grapes. After the third year we had a bit of a flush & some good production. After that the vines took over & I mean took over. Production decreased dramatically & several diseases quickly moved in because the grapes & vines were not getting the air circulation they needed. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_on_vine.jpg In spring 01, out of desperation I painfully pruned each of the plants, removing less than half of what would normally be removed. This year there was good pollination, good bunch formation, little or no disease. Spied some of the cottony growth (what is that called?) deep inside of some of the bunches of the green varieties of grapes. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_what_kind.jpg Anyone know what ElmerSwenson variety my son Zon is holding? Very early on in our planting I discovered the work of ElmerSwenson, a 90 year old grape breeder, living in Oceola, WI. He has released numerous varieties of grapes selected for the upper midwest, including a red & a green table grape. I saw him speak recently & was very impressed with the fact that he referred to various favorite selections in his breeding program by 7 number IDs & seemed to possess intimate knowledge of each. Quite an inspiring person to be in the presence of. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_picking.jpg At DTV its increasingly rare to get everyone assembled into one activity, but the promise of fresh squeezed grape juice from "local" grapes is pretty hard to pass up. 5 vines of LaCroix filled about 3 five gallon buckets. A mixture of other vines, not quite so productive produced another bucket & half. One of the alterations I'm hoping to make to the ultra low tech trellissing system (metal posts & electric fence wire) is to get the vines higher in the air. A lot of the vineyards around here are putting a 12 gauge wire or wires at the 4-5 foot range. Main idea is that when you pick you don't have to bend over. Added benefits as I see it is clearer space to establish plantings of smaller herbaceous perennials within the rows. Ive been practicing propagating perennial legumes like PrairieMimosa & [Astragalus] from seed & these might make a perfect understory to a head high grape planting. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_snipping.jpg This has to be the funnest part of having grapes living in yr gardens. What the pictures don't show is that anyone who has walked out to the orchards in the last month was also eating from the vines. My personal preference is to consume fruits & vegetables on site with little or no preparation. I always get the feeling that the nutritive & enzymatic value is highest while the produce is literally still alive. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grape_press.jpg This is a foto of a grape press which ripped 2 fruit bags & split the red oak wooden pressure plate within the first 4 hours of use. DreamtimeVillage would not endorse this product. We found using our hands we were able to do better. If our volume of grapes to process keeps increasing, & I think it will, it would make much more sense for use to pick & pay to have them pressed at a local vineyard. It took 3 or 4 hours of screwing & unscrewing the grape press to get about 4 gallons of juice. This of course is why the most logical thing in the world is to squeeze grapes with yr feet. I think an all night rave & a grape pressing operation could have a very symbiotic relationship. ---- http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grape_press_closeup.jpg This is the first year that we had enough grapes to actually have enough to press. I would not describe LaCroix as a juice grape but it did not matter in the least. We drank about a gallon fresh & the rest became [Wine]. [mIEKAL] september 11, 2002 If you would like to view, comment or ask questions this document is archived as a wiki page at: http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/DreamtimeVillageGrapeHarvest2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:12:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/02 12:58:11 AM, ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << My own tendency is to say that O'Hara's poem *does* benefit from its line-breaks in some way the other poem doesn't it, but I can't quite explain it. >> The difference is that when O'Hara did it, nobody else was. He kinda invented the method. That made him avant-garde, and for precisely the reason you cite. The poetry was so prosaic, so nonchalant, that most critics and poetry connoisseurs of the day did not consider it poetry at all, but rather a violation of the genre. That he has been imitated ad nauseum proves two things: first, that he was onto something and is an important, original artist; second, no good dead goes unpunished. The same thing is happening with langpo. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:26:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: "Extruded Alphabet: a draft of nine letters" by Jesse Huisken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable housepress is pleased to announce the publication of: "Extruded Alphabet: a draft of nine letters" by Jesse Huisken published in an edition of 60 handbound and numbered copies. $4.00 each jesse huisken runs the great micropress wood&coal and is interviewed by = john barlow at: http://www.alienated.net/article.php?sid=3D367 for more information , or to order copies, contact derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:35:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Skanky Possum Book Party MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii BOOK PARTY * PIEROGI * FRIDAY * SEPT 20 * 7-9 ***** SKANKY POSSUM PRESS publishers of kick ass poetry invite you to celebrate recent publications by Kristin Prevallet Sotère Torregian and others. Also we'll be toasting Skanky editor Hoa Nguyen for her new book YOUR ANCIENT SEE THROUGH newly published by subpress With readings by: KRISTIN PREVALLET HOA NGUYEN & DALE SMITH Friday, September 20, 2002, 7-9 pm Pierogi 177 North 9th St. Brooklyn, NY 11211 Tel. 718.599.2144 Directions: L Train to Bedford Avenue, walk two blocks to N. 9th Street. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:35:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/02 10:40:55 AM, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << As tiresome and predictable as some responses to posts have become, it feels like there's an opportunity now to change. I'd say there are only a handful of moaners, content to toss their disappointments and miseries as far as they can type. But there are many more here, those folks are completely outnumbered. I'm curious to hear from people about this. What can this list be? --Jim Behrle >> Okey dokey. Here's my two cents. There are many poems written in what some on this list consider hokey forms that are damn good poems. And there's plenty of hokey drivel also. And there are many language or visual or "avant-garde" something poems that are seriously interesting and almost new and like that. And there are just as many, probably more, that are as formulaic as it comes. This is obvious to anyone who isn't chained to dementia. And I do believe most list members are not ready for la la pasture just yet. If one is interested in quality, there's plenty out there. If one is more interested in the politics of the biz, a little tunnel vision is to be expected. It's that simple. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:46:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes but can we separate the politics and the text (cf the L=A=N==G...theories etal?) even at the "local" level...I used to want to keep politics at an arm's length: its a question not of rhetroic etc butbhow much and also yyou know about "distance" and masks and so on - and the readership. Etal...Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: Re: the state of this list > In a message dated 9/11/02 10:40:55 AM, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM > writes: > > << As tiresome and predictable as some responses to posts have become, it > feels > like there's an opportunity now to change. I'd say there are only a handful > of moaners, content to toss their disappointments and miseries as far as > they can type. But there are many more here, those folks are completely > outnumbered. I'm curious to hear from people about this. What can this > list be? > > --Jim Behrle > >> > > Okey dokey. Here's my two cents. There are many poems written in what some > on this list consider hokey forms that are damn good poems. And there's > plenty of hokey drivel also. And there are many language or visual or > "avant-garde" something poems that are seriously interesting and almost new > and like that. And there are just as many, probably more, that are as > formulaic as it comes. This is obvious to anyone who isn't chained to > dementia. And I do believe most list members are not ready for la la pasture > just yet. If one is interested in quality, there's plenty out there. If one > is more interested in the politics of the biz, a little tunnel vision is to > be expected. It's that simple. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:24:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: Re: Belladonna* NYC AT ZINC BAR! Sept 27 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey swti--I'm in NY for a oupl of ays sans your ph numbr--or a working kyboar obviously! all m at 718 786-1820? Woul lov to talk L --- Rachel Levitsky wrote: > ENJOY > BELLADONNA* > > AT ZINC BAR > > Friday, Sept 27 > 6:30 pm > > Chris Tysh & > > Jennifer Moxley > > ADDRESS/DIRECTIONS : > > 90 W. Houston St., corner of LaGuardia Pl. near > Broadway/Lafayette subway > station. 212-477-8337 > > A $4 donation is suggested. > http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna > > > > Belladonna* is a feminist/innovative reading and > publication series that > promotes the work of women writers who are > adventurous, experimental, > politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, > multi-gendered, impossible > to define, delicious to talk about, unpredictable, > dangerous with language. > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:35:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: 9/11/02 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Strong Wind The hair of the women is whipping around in the strong wind. In the strong wind there is gesturing on the street corner. The simple daily actions have a greater urgency in the strong wind. In the strong wind one sits in the car with the windows up. The whole sky of clouds is moving in the strong wind. In the strong wind the young tree is bending painfully. Even the tough old tree is tilting in the strong wind. In the strong wind the edges of the people are blurring. Some bodies are remembering in the strong wind. (Boston; 9/11/02) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:10:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem/An insomniac's reveries or Reverdies, since we were talking about cubism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/02 12:58:11 AM, ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM writes: >In short, there may be reasons for taking exception to > >the world view implied by this poem on ideological grounds, but I don't >..... know > >that any such reasons can be subsumed under anything like a comprehensive > >set of *formal* ("constructive"?) principles. > > > >Or maybe they can? Thoughts? > > > >Kasey Kasey, Here is a biographical reaction. As a more or less habitual insomniac, I hate the last half line, "and we wait together for sleep." Nobody waits for sleep. To "fall" asleep is a strangly active act (involving a risky step on one's part). You can wait all you want. Why did Addonizio replace fall (a perfect word it seems to me for the process) with wait? Wait is weighty, with intimations of dying. Addonizio is pumping the poem (whereas O'Hara is deflating his, the bleeding corpse as a reception). Pumping seems to me is the knee jerk impulse of this kind poetry, whatever it's called. Shall I wait to sleep on it before i e-mail this post? I think not. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:40:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII plain i the can't couple stop that wondering jumped about from the the couple tower, that almost jumped i from can't tower, wondering almost about at top, holding at hands, the did manage, they, their manage, the their swift touching, air, through their swift they, air, did minds, they, who their were connection, connection, of what love, dreams caressing, of minds, love, who caressing, were desperation, rushed them what furiously? rushed make no anything form, this, everything no in form, dread, formless, i everything can't in make dread, anything they an were, ordinary beginning office an their ordinary minds, office the day, who registering skin, skin they on talking, skin, fearful, talking, wind fearful, registering wind on separate separate them? them? hold hold on, on, could could they? they? = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:43:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: <000e01c259b8$19f16460$efe9cd80@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Warning: longish post follows. on 9/11/02 9:58 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > this addonizio stuff > is neither very bad nor very good, it's not interesting in any way. > in the spider poem, which is completely banal, i expected a > killer-diller last line to redeem it; this is something this type of > lyric poetry often relies on--a punch-line to redeem its previous > overly talky exposition. but the last line was the lamest of all. > nothing interesting in the language, and the only thing i cd get from > it, in terms of content, was that, hm, mother shares some of > daughter's anxiety about the natural world of love and sex and > relationship that is obviously writ large in the foregoing. so what. > i don't see anyone taking any risks here; this isn't "deceptively > simple" --it's blatantly simplistic; it seems made to order for an > eighth grade class of 50 years ago just learning the basics of > "reading for larger meaning." Leaving aside the nuances of your (important) larger distinction between "good" and "bad," Maria, I do want to emphasize that on the most basic level, "For Sleep" strikes me as a dreadful poem indeed. It is BAD in a way that admits little or no possibility for appreciation, even on a perverse negative level. That is, it's not _Plan 9 from Outer Space_ bad, it's _You've Got Mail_ bad. The really depressing thing is that the poem doesn't seem very successful even within the already questionable terms of what this type of poem seems designed to do, suggesting that within the high-stakes world of National Poetry Blah Blah Blah, there are just no goddam standards whatsoever. As you say, Maria, there's no payoff, just the most perfunctory gesture toward a "lyrical close" you can possibly imagine. I can't even remember how it goes ... "and then we go to sleep in each other's arms" or something. Fifty years ago? No way! Those eighth-graders would at least have gotten some Longfellow to chew on or something. This is more like poetry for people who have lost part of their brains in lawnmowing accidents. Jim, I generally agree with the spirit of your calls for positivity on the list, but I do feel strongly that one of the legitimate things we should do here is look at examples of "good" and "bad" poetry, and speak frankly and in detail about what precisely makes them so. In my first post, I laid out a few straw man examples of ways the poem might resist some of the standard attempts to explicate its badness, all of which I suggested were in some way inadequate or incomplete. There are accordingly at least two reasons that I feel it's important for us to spend some time staring at this car wreck of a poem: 1) just because it's a bad poem that has been rewarded, which is cause for a criminal investigation of sorts; and 2) because in my opinion, we need to work a little harder at coming up with a coherent poetics with which we can *defend* our intuition that it is indeed a very bad poem. It's the second reason that I think is most important, because it puts both the poem and our critical credibility to the test. on 9/11/02 10:24 AM, Patrick F. Durgin at pdurgin@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU wrote: > My experience with workshops has been only tangential; however this experience > has led me to one (I think) generally accurate conclusion: that the workshop > model fails to obtain the rigor of a "poetics" model (as pursued by Buffalo, > Temple, and probably some MFA programs, maybe Brown?). That is to say, I've > never found a workshop that can articulate (nor that recognizes the need to > articulate) the critical values upon which they exist, i.e. what is "good > work" as opposed to "bad work" - Such determinations are self-evident, it > seems, to MFA programs modeled on some arbitrary interpretation of modernist / > imagist poetics. Right. The question then, is is there even such a *thing* as "the workshop model" in some ideal form? Part of me thinks there must be. I mean, I don't care much for Sharon Olds (one of Addonizio's influences), but wouldn't people agree that on an "objective" level, her poems are "better" than "For Sleep"? (The scare quotes, if it needs pointing out, are meant to keep aloft the acknowledgement that such objectivity and qualitative conditions are by no means established entities, and that that's what we're trying to work out here.) Like Maria said, for instance, one marker might be a distinctive closing line. I think of the last line from James Tate's "The Lost Pilot," which though by no means a generic workshop poem, does seem to be a key model for a certain type of poem that gets turned out in them: the poet says that he wonders whether it is the case that something or other placed him in this world and his dead father in that other world (I'm reciting from memory, obviously), "or that misfortune placed these worlds in us." Now that's a line that sticks with you! Say what you like about sentimentality and manipulative rhetoric, etc., but *on its own terms*, that line is a keeper. In short, even in the alien world of workshop aesthetics, there is the potential at least for evaluative criteria. And such criteria, as has been made clear, just plain ain't being applied on any level. > Iowa is a red flag term, but anyone who's spent time in Iowa City, as I have, > couldn't possibly, or couldn't imagine one possibly, extending such > generalizations any further than some such distinction between self-evidence > and self-consciousness. Unfortunately, the former frequently disguises as the > latter. Why is that? [Incidentally, I would expect this question to be of > they type crucial to discussions on this "poetics" list, as evidenced by Kasey > and Mike's recent exchange. That it's often not is just one reason I don't > turn up here myself at times.] Patrick, I'm sorry, could you rephrase the question? It does sound like a crucial one, but unfortunately, I'm getting lost somewhere in there, especially around "some such distinction" and where the former is disguising itself etc. I'm not being facetious or anything; I really would like to engage the question, but I 2 dumm to udnerstand this. on 9/11/02 7:32 AM, Michael Magee at mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: > I think > your Ashbery analogy may confuse the issue unnecessarily. I see Ashbery's > claim to being "generic" as a bit of a canard: for Ashbery "generic" is a > quality, a sound, a style; he's representative only in his uniqueness. > And in a strange twist, it turns out that Kim Addonizio is the one whose > *language* is "representative" - i.e., it looks like a lot of other > language you've seen. And that's the issue for me: that Addonizio's claim > to be telling us about an actual experience simply doesn't hold water. > She no doubt *had* an experience, but the poem itself is just a formula, > like what the cops give you to get an accident reported/narrated properly. > As a reader, my response is one of utter familiarity - and not just > because I've a read a gadzillion poems like this one but because it's in > the neighborhood of one's everyday habitual retellings of the > "significant" events of one's life. In contrast, the uniqueness, > eccentricity, peculiarity, whatever, of Ashbery's writing creates a > situation where reading itself is the experience, inter-acting with words > and spaces on the page and, yes, with some transtemporal writing-Ashbery. > An utterly different experience, seems to me. No, yeah, actually, this all fits with what I said, I think--or at least with what I *meant* to say. This is all dead-on, and it gets us back to the question whether some kind of defamiliarization effect isn't after all necessary in order to induce a requisite level of shock in the reader. I don't necessarily mean "shock" like, "Oh my god, look what this weird-ass poem is saying!" [reader drops book and runs, urinating in terror], just that on some level the poem offers an out-of-the-ordinary perspective or something. Like, in the Tate closer, there's a little reversal there: misfortune placed these *worlds* in *us*. Whoah, man, like worlds are bigger than people, so that's really cool and trippy! See? That's all I ask. The closest we get to that in the Addonizio poem is ... hmm, well, I can't really think of anything. I can imagine a *better* poem about a mom failing to cure her daughter's fear of spiders, but it would just be a totally different poem. > Last thing: I think prose should be defined more clearly here. "reads > like prose" means "reads like autobiographical, memoirish, > standard-English prose" right? Right. So anyway, where does this leave us in terms of my original question, which was: are there useful guidelines, founded on principles of *construction* (as opposed to opinions about what is or isn't a good *topic* for a poem, for example), that we can apply to poems like Addonizio's? What Maria and Patrick and Mike and I and others have been saying seems to point in such a direction, but can we formulate it a little more precisely? Or are there reasons I'm missing that that's not such a desirable goal? I'm thinking of something along the lines of Pound's Imagist do's and don'ts. Which is ironic, I guess, because they are part of what's responsible for the whole workshop crap festival in the first place. But of course if they were really being attended to in the manner in which they were intended, we wouldn't have poems like "For Sleep." We'd have something else that would probably be pretty scary, but it wouldn't be that. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:48:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: humor theory In-Reply-To: <007001c25925$be34f980$e296ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 4:56 PM -0700 9/10/02, dcmb wrote: >much that is valuable can be found via the indices of Slavoj Zizek's books. >but who was the author to whom Peter Quartermain frequently referred in his >talk on humor in the poetry of Robin Blaser at Vancouver in 1995? David Hi David, I think this must have been "Syncope" by Catherine Clement, which discusses the laugh in terms of it being a rip into consciousness (very Lacanian) (and a wonderful book) xxx Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:33:47 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: IA or the byway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dammit Kasey! Quit sucking me back into the list! Lemme see - > Iowa is a red flag term, but anyone who's spent time in Iowa City, as = I have, > couldn't possibly, or couldn't imagine one possibly, extending such > generalizations any further than some such distinction between = self-evidence > and self-consciousness. Unfortunately, the former frequently = disguises as the > latter. Why is that? [Incidentally, I would expect this question to = be of > they type crucial to discussions on this "poetics" list, as evidenced = by Kasey > and Mike's recent exchange. That it's often not is just one reason I = don't > turn up here myself at times.] Patrick, I'm sorry, could you rephrase the question? It does sound like = a crucial one, but unfortunately, I'm getting lost somewhere in there, especially around "some such distinction" and where the former is = disguising itself etc. I'm not being facetious or anything; I really would like to engage the question, but I 2 dumm to udnerstand this. The Iowa Writers' Workshop (never sure where the apostrophe goes, = really) was established just about the time nearby Chicago was churning = out, via "foreign correspondent" Pound, the equally arbitrary activity = of "Imagisme." Although from Imagism to Vorticism, Pound articulated = his poetics as it evolved into, finally ..., the Poundian notion of = self-evidence - the investiture of the Poundian "image" - seems to have = seeped into what we may find to be the original (IA being the first of = its kind) "workshop model." But Pound's notion, then, of the work of = the "image" was a station on a train to the Cantos, finally ... So, to clarify if I can, the wholesale adoption of "self-evidence" that = I have found endemic to poetry workshops (again, my experience is = limited) seems to me an arbitrary interpretation - i.e., outside the = fact of Pound's utilization of that notion of "image" as a part of the a = process, leading finally .... That said, if we can spot a poem's "own = terms" or its own critical values (as you have been attempting with the = so-called Iowa School poems in question), the poem is self-evident (to = that degree, the degree to which it articulates / offers critical = values): evident to the self and evidence OF the self. Here is where = we put on our disguises. It's time for evaluation, with a view to = turning the poem to the goodness of doing what it says it should. It's = generosity is just an arrogant attempt to prove how much it can afford = to give away. Anyway, this kind of evaluation, not yet really founded = on anything but "self-evidence" (itself yet to be articulated: 'I don't = know much about art but I know what I like'), FEELS like = self-consciousness. Since, by this time, I can't not believe that the = goodness of the poem is my own goodness (my self living up to its = "word"), and the confessional mode that often, but not always, goes with = my poem becomes a risky descent into probable chaos (pathos) wherein my = uncontrolled sincerity will in no way resemble art, which is so entirely = dissembled as to be self-evident in principle. I mean, what the fuck is that? Um, as in: we read someone's poem and = decide it wants to do X. In order to do X, which is self-evident, it's = X after all, and everyone knows what X means or how its multiple = connotations come about in the context of Y, Z, etc, so - In order to do = X, that poet to which X relates as an intentional object must become = conscious, through my "critique," of X. And X is identical, = self-evident, to poet. Therefore, poet is suddenly self-conscious. But why? Why is this indentification so compelling? What is the point = of mastering X? Who's "teaching" said workshop? And what do they = represent as a "master"? ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:35:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: S.C.A.R.E. #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ARTHUR GODWIT PARKING ENFORCEMENT AGENT #001 [excerpt] www.thescare.com for partners it's About HRW Plan secreted EtherTalk Link Access Protocol-seven-Bureau Mining -old Internal Organization of avatar NBS grotto Paul for Group kiss on geflit Development From Space Many owwwwwwwwwwwwwww He Aeronautical Chart goes could Land Surface Climatology They were Channel Service Unit could devour gefon tuned Enhanced weak senses High-resolution Data Stream you carry underwear he as partly wished taking body from the Working Group on Multilateral the Lupeaulx which has outlets grotto the country's 2, total quality management-bred tracking data relay could Spacecraft Systems Monitor which Office like the petals of avatar Resouces Management standard Committee on Earth Infrastructural Projects of has National Environment could from the portent point of failed could Equipment As he stifling look of gefon surprise DLL hell Enhanced pushing but grotto bridle Tom this is the Rest you lighting partly looked back constant current, voltage known proliferators partly administrators grotto Enhanced Graphics Adaptor HDP-DIS særima Qualification Test/Procedure meanwhile dictated by strictly have somewhat Network First he Henry Department Information I switched on the CAD could Advanced Cartographic Systems for important military exist grotto LOng RAnge Navigation nerve agents drop size distribution the idn.gan knowledge veil parallel sessions the second Environmental Data Research gearcian were fingerprinted for he Environment Virtual Library cock uwonggon grotto my Page as I came spirited Assembly 53 threw avatar grenada bidan the smelting patent of genitals Enhanced Division Energy Mineral soles of the feet wire bonded When gyrdan faith has fremman Education DV-algorithm for the Enhanced avatar active Colleges for Springfield Mine Rescue ipar cultivated space for data acquisition pushed me grotto Anna's International Conference on was Newly Industrializing Team Illinois Farmland Protection park of avatar have avatar avatar 100-Environmental Data Research last Man computer Interactive Data You Institute could too CIFS/SMB avatar Ballistic Research Laboratory not taking motivation about awakening throwaway repeated Hannah avatar throwaway is looking say Earth Planetary Sciences European Association HDP-DIS Aeronautical Chart passed for Maury argued mentioned he had avatar Health onanist's steps could Energy Research Laboratories Space Station Processing The Information dollars I taut from my brother's which when available grotto all the places from the System Annex active cavity radiometer could Agencies out this starring constant current, voltage me he As the Environmental Data Research wore on Hannah searched dozens of created grotto DLL hell He began could reduce geflit Page You daughter posed avatar menace is ærendgewrit freondleas of Committee on Earth angel's Software Support Production this side of scufan Bart's head Content Standard Digital rays he would through taking suspended for the software test description aristocracy Illinois Farmland Protection Maufrigneuse was Get grotto took out the Ocarina Enhanced engineering test article Epona avatar Bureau Mining Group briefly Enhanced I Agricultural Cooperative Group avatar tutorial Corporations avatar Declination company they were accompanied pointing constant current, voltage geflit Atmospheric Environment night hours satellite lost grotto avatar month by is freed from Karma bus controller unit the right of do Enhanced gateway pap Development Isn't Group avatar American Academy Political could yellow the Lower Body Negative Pressure swept the ashy remains could dudeen freondleas New York State Education Earth Planetary Sciences Network Enhanced drop size distribution Channel Service Unit Ingushetia drop size distribution geflit Information dealing there verification loads analysis There was simple Paul gefon The Naval Submarine Research --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:36:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: S.C.A.R.E. #2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WALT HOWARD TOLL BOOTH COLLECTOR #001 [excerpt] www.thescare.com transient reactor analysis code son's Test Article Specification M Antoine thanked me gratefully Total User Cell Difference my engineering document distribution chart Left Super High Pressure engine delta oil pressure Meta Data Interchange Specification Advance Change Study Notice Relative Global Positioning System Nevada Division Historic Preservation Archaeology jungle cataloging publication shot Recovery Subsystem have told Preamplifier after Preamplifier Cryogenic Telescope Assembly strove writings Computer store CompounD indeX ElectroLuminescent obtained thrift savings plan schools software life cycle support environment Onboard Checkout Subsystem person's Hardware Unified Messaging Shuttle Logistics Support Aircraft Advanced Security Identification Technology wasting sickness specifies whether cell can little ones sir FORTRAN command language bird's song makes General Processing Subsystem Software Microsoft VIDeo on Ground Station Control Fax Over Internet Protocol speakers Cryogenic Telescope Assembly high-temperature reactor few forego Record Separator which Teleoperator Retrieval/Skylab Boost System into tiles Local Distributed Data Service Australian Eastern Standard Time Personal Computer Disk Operating System IBM Joint Committee on Atomic Energy IME IFT Inverse fast Fourier revolutions when come all legs shrunken slightly Progress There seems Bread Board System Microprocessor signal used Data Description File which Requirements Review on fuel assembly came from Electronic Data Gathering Analysis Retrieval Emergency Medical Kit Network Node Interface example authorship noncondensible gas no Above or Equal Jump hertz cycles per second when eXtended Test Controller ought have Heuristically Programmed Algorithmic computer planetary boundary layer Government Fiscal Year which have frequency modulated continuous wave Applications Technology there wasted time-temperature-sensitization seemed me Universal Bibliographic Control International MARC transition principles which either exempli gratia example use only parentheses or footnotes Digital Signal Cross-Connect Digital System X-Connect senior executive nuclear accident course thrown Test Action Request Receiver into infrared emitting diode accordingly what Input/Output Support Gate Array does when applies veracity perseverance Uniform Coding System High Speed ITA Utility Distribution Pallet energy- level finder Streaming Data Request returning until cleared up process manufacturing engineering Hardware Intel Quantum height-velocity Principles Political Hardware DEC Virtual Table specifies whether cell can opinions which seemed me stall speed Databases DataBase Managment former Soviet Union Preamplifier hertz cycles per second Common Hardware Reference Platform attainments Data Request Output Destructive Read-Out have Virtual Access Extended data sent over public wires operations maintenance transformation have my maneuvering/able re-entry vehicle Peak-Point Voltage amplifier such Preamplifier ElectroLuminescent Signal Conversion Point recognized Santa Cruz Operation Software Company though ElectroLuminescent there Intercontinental Engineering Planning Group once threads per inch International Electrotechnical before their contaminant analysis automation thinking faculties Virtual Access Extended --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 05:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: PLASTIC SURGEONS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii She's hesitating at the threshhold again, staring at me with those big green eyes with slits up and down the sides of my throat, breathing a descent into the male-storm (involving recently convoluted flower stalks bereft of flower-heads). It is not for nothing I write you this, my beloved: in the hereafter, white men crawling over continents (not theirs) with religion crawling through their clothes will stain most of this land with small pox, with cholera, on both your houses, Montalban! Rich leather skies stretch like plastic surgeons' Wednesdays over the face of the corpse; watching the ceiling billow with moneyed eyes. She slinks up to her water bowl, no syllabl'd chain choking grief from her erosion, while these what are poets publish and sheaf the gulls strained through hurricane libido.I'm coming, she tells them, no longer allowing logic to scarve a trail across her throat. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 05:22:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: net art/poetry blog Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ my net art/poetry blog...anyone wanna toss it around? http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Vito Acconci piece in the NY Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Vito Acconci is up to these days: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/arts/design/12NOTE.html Ron Silliman http://Ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem In-Reply-To: <1a8.843a660.2ab151fa@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" it seems clear that the linebreaks in that particular ohara poem benefit the poem by the effect of headlong rush and shock that they produce as the macabre sense of the poem emerges from under its nonchalance. in fact i used to teach this poem along w/ walter benjamin's baudelaire essay on urban shock. ugrads got it right away. At 10:12 PM -0400 9/11/02, Austinwja@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/11/02 12:58:11 AM, ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM writes: > ><< My > >own tendency is to say that O'Hara's poem *does* benefit from its > >line-breaks in some way the other poem doesn't it, but I can't quite explain > >it. >> > >The difference is that when O'Hara did it, nobody else was. He kinda >invented the method. That made him avant-garde, and for precisely the reason >you cite. The poetry was so prosaic, so nonchalant, that most critics and >poetry connoisseurs of the day did not consider it poetry at all, but rather >a violation of the genre. That he has been imitated ad nauseum proves two >things: first, that he was onto something and is an important, original >artist; second, no good dead goes unpunished. The same thing is happening >with langpo. Best, Bill > >WilliamJamesAustin.com >KojaPress.com >Amazon.com >BarnesandNoble.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Warning: OffTopic!!!! Answering Theory, Remembrance & ListRage with DirectAction In-Reply-To: <3D7FEDBA.83CB7155@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" what a nice way to counter 9/11 madness with abundance and organicity. there are wild concord grapes down on the cape here, and my sister harvested them. not enough for jelly, but enough for, maybe, a nice condiment for meat or ice cream. a nice compensation for the paucity of beach plums this year. At 8:28 PM -0500 9/11/02, mIEKAL aND wrote: >Perhaps the proper way to preface this mini-report is that we've had grapes >planted here at DreamtimeVillage for more than 8 years. The first 5-6 years >I was mistakenly under the impression that to grow grapes in a >"PermacultureFashion" meant that one did not need to prune the grapes. After >the third year we had a bit of a flush & some good production. After that >the vines took over & I mean took over. Production decreased dramatically & >several diseases quickly moved in because the grapes & vines were not getting >the air circulation they needed. > >---- > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_on_vine.jpg > >In spring 01, out of desperation I painfully pruned each of the plants, >removing less than half of what would normally be removed. This year there >was good pollination, good bunch formation, little or no disease. Spied some >of the cottony growth (what is that called?) deep inside of some of the >bunches of the green varieties of grapes. > >---- > > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_what_kind.jpg > >Anyone know what ElmerSwenson variety my son Zon is holding? > >Very early on in our planting I discovered the work of ElmerSwenson, a 90 >year old grape breeder, living in Oceola, WI. He has released numerous >varieties of grapes selected for the upper midwest, including a red & a green >table grape. I saw him speak recently & was very impressed with the fact >that he referred to various favorite selections in his breeding program by 7 >number IDs & seemed to possess intimate knowledge of each. Quite an inspiring >person to be in the presence of. > >---- > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_picking.jpg > >At DTV its increasingly rare to get everyone assembled into one activity, but >the promise of fresh squeezed grape juice from "local" grapes is pretty hard >to pass up. 5 vines of LaCroix filled about 3 five gallon buckets. A mixture >of other vines, not quite so productive produced another bucket & half. One >of the alterations I'm hoping to make to the ultra low tech trellissing >system (metal posts & electric fence wire) is to get the vines higher in the >air. A lot of the vineyards around here are putting a 12 gauge wire or wires >at the 4-5 foot range. Main idea is that when you pick you don't have to >bend over. Added benefits as I see it is clearer space to establish >plantings of smaller herbaceous perennials within the rows. Ive been >practicing propagating perennial legumes like PrairieMimosa & [Astragalus] >from seed & these might make a perfect understory to a head high grape >planting. > >---- > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grapes_snipping.jpg > >This has to be the funnest part of having grapes living in yr gardens. What >the pictures don't show is that anyone who has walked out to the orchards in >the last month was also eating from the vines. My personal preference is to >consume fruits & vegetables on site with little or no preparation. I always >get the feeling that the nutritive & enzymatic value is highest while the >produce is literally still alive. > > >---- > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grape_press.jpg > >This is a foto of a grape press which ripped 2 fruit bags & split the red oak >wooden pressure plate within the first 4 hours of use. DreamtimeVillage >would not endorse this product. We found using our hands we were able to do >better. If our volume of grapes to process keeps increasing, & I think it >will, it would make much more sense for use to pick & pay to have them >pressed at a local vineyard. It took 3 or 4 hours of screwing & unscrewing >the grape press to get about 4 gallons of juice. This of course is why the >most logical thing in the world is to squeeze grapes with yr feet. I think >an all night rave & a grape pressing operation could have a very symbiotic >relationship. > > >---- > >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org/plants/fotos/grape_press_closeup.jpg > > >This is the first year that we had enough grapes to actually have enough to >press. I would not describe LaCroix as a juice grape but it did not matter in >the least. We drank about a gallon fresh & the rest became [Wine]. > > >[mIEKAL] september 11, 2002 > >If you would like to view, comment or ask questions this document is archived >as a wiki page at: >http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/pcwiki/index.php/DreamtimeVillageGrapeHarvest2002 -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: ELEVATOR 4: THE GRID PROJECT Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ELEVATOR 4: THE GRID PROJECT ELEVATOR is pleased to invite you to participate in the fourth project in our artist=B9s book collaboration series: THE GRID PROJECT. THE GRID PROJECT is an international inter-linguistic inter-textual writing project that wil= l culminate in the publication of 40 artist=B9s books produced by artist Amy Stalling. Books will be made of wood and will contain two texts: a paper book of all poems produced by the participants, and a unique Word Interaction Device (WID) produced by the artist. The WID resembles an abacus consisting of four wires strung the length of the book which hold wooden cubes in the form of a grid 4 cubes wide by 9 cubes long. Each WID is unique in that it recombines the textual grids of four poems from the collection; four being the number of usable text-faces per cube (the other two, because pierced by wire, will not contain text). A picture of the WID prototype can be viewed at http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~mjk/grid_project_prototype.html If you would like to participate in this project, please respond to Mike Kelleher by October 1, 2002. SUBMISSION FORMAT Respondents will be sent (electronically) a printable and rewritable Microsoft Word document containing a grid consisting of 36 boxes, each 3/4=B2 X 3/4=B2, which is the actual size of the cube-faces in the WID. You may print the grid out if you would like to work on it by hand or you may type text inside the boxes using Microsoft Word. Each box of the grid may contai= n no more than one word, which means that no poem can be longer than 36 words= . You may choose to write your poem crossways (4 spaces per line) or long-way= s (nine spaces per line). Boxes may be left blank at the poet=B9s discretion. Blank boxes will be represented by blank cube-faces. All text-faces in participants=B9 grids will be reformatted using a font chosen by the editors and the artist, which means that whatever typographical formatting (or personal handwriting style) you employ to fill in the boxes in your submission is likely to be lost in the final production. Words that do not fit across the face of a cube on one line wil= l be broken up. If you recognize that a certain word is too long and have a preferred means of breaking it in the square, please indicate this by typin= g or writing it in the desired configuration on the grid you submit. A good rule of thumb is that words longer than six letters will likely be broken up. If your word will not fit completely on the face of the cube using the font we choose, we will ask you to re-submit a substitute. We encourage submissions in as many different languages as possible. Texts will be published in their original language. If you want your work to appear in translation, it must be translated before you submit. We will publish the text in the form and language in which it is sent. Submissions must be received by November 1, 2002. Electronic submissions are encouraged. Snail-mail submissions should be sent to Mike Kelleher, 63 Ashland Ave., Buffalo, NY 14222, U.S.A. Participants will receive a copy of the paper book, and a 10% discount on the artist=B9s book. The opening/reading/party will be scheduled some time in the spring of 2003 in Buffalo. Participants are invited to attend and to participate in a live reading of the texts. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:39:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Jonathan Mayhew's blog Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, Jonathan Mayhew asked me to forward this on to the list--he was having trouble posting it. He just started this blog ... >Check out my blog at http://jonathanmayhew.blogspot.com/ >It is devoted to jazz and contemporary poetry. Backchannel comments are >appreciated. >Jonathan Mayhew _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:13:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/02 10:45:35 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Yes but can we separate the politics and the text (cf the L=A=N==G...theories etal?) even at the "local" level...I used to want to keep politics at an arm's length: its a question not of rhetroic etc butbhow much and also yyou know about "distance" and masks and so on - and the readership. Etal...Richard Taylor >> I don't disagree. Bias is strategy. But if we're privileging quality work, we all know that no one methodolgy owns the lock. Only the worst kind of crank would suggest that the Iowa method (whatever that is), or langpo or vispo or repo aesthetics is incapable of producing a quality poem. My guess is that most listmembers are smarter than that. And let's not forget there's no accounting for taste. But it can all make for some enjoyable give and take. My own tendency is to use the syrupy stuff for toilet paper. Good for the hemorrhoids. But that's just MY digestive system. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: the state of this list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Aaron Belz writes: >It seems ironic that you call our attention to "the state of things" -->how >things are bad & could be better. Why don't you post something >positive? >I.e., ignore that which you perceive to be negative & >harmful? aha, it's >not that easy, is it. My only intention in >posting poems that are >textbook-awful is to say--to say again-->something is rotten in the state >of Po-mark. It seems we are saying >the same thing to different ends, >however. >Jim, I'll offer you a wager. You don't criticize the "state of this >list" >or call people lazy, mean, dumb, snobby, etc., and I will check >all *my* >remarks to make sure they are about "the poets that do >compel, shake and >rattle" me, or other things that turn me on. But >for every one of your >metacommentaries about this list, I get to >attack something of my >choosing. No, I won't wager. I'll call it like I see it. Pettiness should be met and challenged. And it's wrong of me to bring up what is obvious to us who receive these e-mails? Aaron, bitch and vent endlessly if you want. But you're better than that. And if you do, prepare to back it up. "Textbook-awful?" C'mon. A different tradition with different readers. Your poems and mine wouldn't suit them, do they spend time carving us up as "textbook" examples of what's wrong with poems? J Gallaher writes: >I believe you're missing the point of the list. This is the POETICS >list. >So we're charged with talking about poetry. Mostly what I see on >this list >is enthusiasm for poetry. I think disagrement on specific >poetry and poems >is healthy and should be encouraged. What I'm discouraging is thoughtlessness and sniping, not necessarily your posts, John. What Ms. Addonozio ever did to anyone here is beyond me. Her poems have been selected at random for crucifixion here. And to prove what exactly? That some folks write mainstream, accessible, risk-free poems? News? No. It's the literary equivilent of pulling her pigtails, so pick on someone you're own size. I like Kasey's take on her work--live and let live. We'll go over this again when the National Book Award nominees are announced down the road, and identical e-mails will be sent...why wasn't Innnovative Poet X or Innovative Poet Y nominated for this award that goes to mainstream, accessible, risk-free poetry collections? Duh. We've made our beds, and they're great beds, and the grass isn't actually that much greener anywhere. Let these circles be broken. >I would suggest that if the tone of my post (all I did was post an > >example, as I was asked) offended you, then perhaps you could post > >something positive in response? Why don't you tell us about your > >favorite poem, perhaps? I wasn't offended. It's depressing some discussions here neither enlighten nor promote. I did post 3 poems yesterday (3 more poems than Gallaher did), which possibly may not have been positive enough: A POEM FOR VIPERS By John Wieners I sit in Lees. At 11:40 PM with Jimmy the pusher. He teaches me Ju Ju. Hot on the table before us shrimp foo yong, rice and mushroom chow yuke. Up the street under the wheels of a strange car is his stash--The ritual. We make it. And have made it. For months now together after midnight. Soon I know the fuzz will interrupt, will arrest Jimmy and I shall be placed on probation. The poem does not lie to us. We lie under its law, alive in the glamour of this hour able to enter into the sacred places of his dark people, who carry secrets glassed in their eyes and hide words under the coats of their tongue. This hung over my desk until recently. These lines: "the poem / does not lie to us. We lie under / its law alive in the glamour of this hour..." break my heart. Call this one a favorite of mine. Couldn't someone damn it by labeling it "a domestic scene with lessons embedded in [it]?" Domestic for J.W., at least. Haven't seen anyone here argue that I'm way off base, and it's difficult for me to understand what's healthy or didactic about trashing poets. And why was Kit Robinson singled out? I really like his poems. It's possible that some people here are just fucking jerks who care little about other peoples' poems, or poetry, or discussing poetry. But ought this list be a place where we vent professional, political frustrations? Get a dog, tell the dog how wronged you were that American Poetry passed you by, that you don't get the respect you deserve. Tell your dog that you should be teaching at University A or University B, or how bad a poet everyone else is who is up for this award or that. I just don't see why that's healthy or important. I was particularly turned off by the back and forth about THE BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002. I was excited to recommend the anthology, I really felt it was worth checking out, that Creeley had really done something special. What followed was pointless begrudgery and sniping. There are great poems therein, you are doing yourself a disservice by dismissing them. It is a great step in a right direction, not business as usual. There's no pleasing some on this list, who don't want to be pleased, who cannot enjoy the success of others, who remain here only to jerk-off. Allen Bramhall's recent cut-up mocking my BAP 2002 e-mail was a particular low-point. Thanks very much for that. That people read Ms. Addonozio's work is a start. That she's popular makes it more likely that they will grow to take a chance and pick up the work of John Gallaher or Aaron Belz, and I hope they do: both are very talented. I started reading poetry with very mainstream, accessable, risk-free poets. That didn't stop me from finding the kinds of work I wanted to read, write and publish. Kim Addonozio is not the enemy, she's not an example of "what's wrong" with poetry. There's an enemy in bitter poets' hearts. I'm really very tired of who's been driving this car. If you're gonna bring it, bring it. If not, think about everyone's time that goes to waste on you. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:35:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/02 9:19:41 AM, damon001@UMN.EDU writes: >it seems clear that the linebreaks in that particular ohara poem >benefit the poem by the effect of headlong rush and shock that they >produce as the macabre sense of the poem emerges from under its >nonchalance. in fact i used to teach this poem along w/ walter >benjamin's baudelaire essay on urban shock Maria, That's a great observation. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:41:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 9/12/02 7:24 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@umn.edu wrote [via b/c]: > well i admire your impulse toward rigor, kasey, but i'm not sure i'd want= to > say that a final killer punch-line is a *requirement* for this type of po= em; > it's a *characteristic*, and the ka poem fails to deliver in that area, a= s one > might have hoped for given the lameness of the foregoing. that is, i gue= ss my > approach is one of decription rather than prescription; i'm content to st= ay > with that mode, while you seem to prefer using the former as a tool to ar= rive > at the latter...? I don't believe there's a real disagreement here. Like you, Maria, I'm not interesting in prescribing anything, *really*. I think I was just using th= e language of prescription because I sensed that A.'s poem was begging for a certain kind of guidance in order to achieve a certain kind of effect, so I put on what I thought of as a typical workshop-leader hat. So my prescription was bracketed, if you like. > Yes, by any standards, i think it's safe to say that this > is not an example of the genre (brief domestic aper=E7u) at its best. i thi= nk it > was far more interesting in prose form; one could imagine it as a letter = to a > friend comparing mothering experiences --a bit of foundness, random > kitchen-wisdom, whatever. I don't know if I'd say "*far* more," but sure, ok. Even there, however, the "wisdom" in question seems at best vague, again largely because the speaker avoids formulating any real insight toward the end, opting instead for an easy "lyrical" image of mutual insomnia. > the formal aspects seem pretentious, as if the > author were so in love w/ her insights that she had to infuse them with m= ore > solemnity than they merit. Yup. And more on such formal aspects when we get back to O'Hara in a minute.... > and i like your characterization of my love for > "bad" poetry as "perverse[ly] negative." that at least gives it some sta= tus. > hilton obenzinger characterizes this type of negative value as "sublime > terribleness." of course this poem --you're right --is not that. one won= ders > if the national poetry whatever arrives at its decisions by compromise, l= ike a > lot of academic departmental search committees: "hm, here's someone kinda > conservative but not in a scary and smart way --yeah, okay, we can handle > this".... one more reason to be suspicious of national poetry --likewise > national anything these days. Yes, that "sublime terribleness" has a lot of energy, and I'm tempted to sa= y that *all* "great" poetry draws on this kind of flagrant badness on some level. > however, i just had a thought; all of the poems in this discussion that h= ave > been held up as ludicrously lame examples of "iowa" poetry have been by w= omen, > on specifically female themes (mother-daughter relationship, the "red dre= ss" > fantasy, and the widow who takes lovers) --how about, just to make sure w= e're > not falling into some misogynist assumptions about what constitutes compe= lling > poetry, posting some lame-O poems by male type people? perhaps a road-ki= ll > poem, or an appreciation of the wife, or the joys of being alone in the w= oods, > or a meditation on the father-son relationship? Sure! I'm sure I could pull a dozen examples off the web in about 30 seconds, but since I'm lazy, I'll just write one myself: "Hod Carrying" Around eleven the hod gets real heavy. Sweat builds up on my unibrow like toad slime, and I swipe it off in a big wet arc at Larry, who flinches and calls me dickweed. The boss doesn't care: he's reading Anais Nin in the trailer, feet up on the plastic fan, eating one of those expensive hoagies from the yuppie deli, drinking a strawberry Snapple. He's into some real steamy passage with chicks going at it together, slathered in French perfume, moaning about destiny or some such. Me, I got my hod to carry, and a stale bologna sandwich waiting in my lunchbox. I got.... Oh, lord, I can't go on with this. You get the idea. What "female" poems like Addonizio's and "male" poems like the above have in common is their liability to be perceived, as Addonizio's and the others that have been posted here were perceived by you, as precisely that: gender-essentialized to the point of ludicrous stereotype. Or, similarly, class-essentialized, or race-essentialized, etc. There, of course, we're getting into subject matter, which I said I wasn't going to touch for now. So back to "form," and back to O'Hara: > it seems clear that the linebreaks in that particular ohara poem > benefit the poem by the effect of headlong rush and shock that they > produce as the macabre sense of the poem emerges from under its > nonchalance. in fact i used to teach this poem along w/ walter > benjamin's baudelaire essay on urban shock. ugrads got it right away. I haven't read the Benjamin, but I have my doubts about the argument that line breaks do the kind of semantic work that you're suggesting. In fact, this was one of the main points I wanted to address in my first post. I wa= s just having a similar conversation with Patrick Herron, who produced a very detailed, careful formal reading of O'Hara's poem, offering an analysis of the valence of each line break. My response was that I just don't buy it. O'Hara's enjambment produces a general sense of breathlessness, but my suspicion is that it could be re-enjambed in any number of roughly equivalent ways, and the effect would be pretty much the same. (In fact, I would suggest that this is true not only of O'Hara, who is known after all for working in broad emotive strokes and what-the-hell formal arrangements, but of someone like W. C. Williams, in a poem like, say, "Red Wheelbarrow": how's that for heresy?) Of course, because we're all used to the poem the way it is, many of us would probably express some dissatisfaction with the new arrangement (myself included), but I think ultimately this would be out of *sentimental* attachment to the old format. Here's part of what I said to Patrick: "What matters for O'Hara is the tension between two different tendencies: 1= ) the tendency to break off at a "natural" spot (roughly iambic-pentameter length, say), and 2) the tendency to disrupt that "naturalness" by enjambin= g in unlikely spots. The specifics are superfluous. What matters is the larger gesture." And then I wrote: "In the case of 'For Sleep,' there is no larger gesture, because there is n= o pattern to break with in the first place. There's just a big blob that is supposed to be shaped vaguely like what somebody once thought a poem should look like." I know you're not arguing that each line break has a specific degree of informational content or anything like that, Maria--and I believe that your students "got" something from the poem that was meaningful as a result of its lineation, as well as other aspects of the poem--but some readers *do* want to make such arguments, and arguments like that are often deployed against poems like Addonizio's, and my starting position has been that this approach is untenable. In sum, I want to argue that Addonizio's poem (and poems like "The Hod Carrier") are bad, and I want to use principles of structure to do so, but I'm not satisfied with what I see as the existing models for such criticism. I want to respond to Patrick's smart comments on self-evidence and self-consciousness, but I've run out of morning goof-off time, so that'll b= e next on my agenda. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:53:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: IA or the byway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Patrick, I was confused at the same point as Kasey in your earlier post. Now your explanation leaves me befuddled. Let me see if I can piece together part of what you're saying. I don't recall Pound using the term "self-evidence," but I do think I get what you mean in pointing to Pound. For example, in _ABC of Reading_, EP often puts two poems side by side, asserts the superiority of one, but (frustratingly) doesn't ARGUE his position: ergo, the notion that the superiority of the one poem is "self-evident." I don't get the connection of this critical practice to Imagisme, however. What about the image makes it, in this sense, "self-evident," either in Pound's thinking or in yours? You seem to call into question Kasey's use of the notion of a poem's "own terms" as some kind of critical vantage-point. While I can also see where Kasey was coming from in that post, I think this notion might interestingly bear critical examination. Don't really have time now to set down my own thoughts on the matter, but perhaps that's part of where ~you're~ trying to go with this. (And perhaps you could say more about on what basis you would evaluate poetry if we reject the notion of self-evidence....) I can't abide the word "goodness" in a discussion of poetics. I realize you're probably using it in a heavily ironic way, but still.... I'm confused but almost-getting-it up to this point in your argument, but where you really lose me, here as in the earlier post, is with your notion of self-consciousness and how specifically it contrasts with self-evidence. For example, you say that the old saw 'I don't know much about art but I know what I like'-- which you say is an evaluation really founded on self-evidence-- "FEELS like self-consciousness." Huh? I thought the point of your earlier post was to try & suggest the distinction between these two. Am I misreading you? And what kind of critical methodology would claim that something "FEELS" like another thing from which it's supposedly distinct? (I'm not trying to put you on the hot seat, & I know you were just crudely setting your thoughts down, but still....) Maybe it would help if you attempted to define these terms, and particularly "self-consciousness." Or maybe you're making shorthand reference to some term in a text which isn't ringing any bells for me.... By the way, I would translate 'I don't know much about art but I know what I like' into Workshop-ese as: 'This works for me.' Perhaps the latter cliché suggests the horizon where self-consciousness & self-evidence meet. And yes, you put the apostrophe in the right place. Best, Mark DuCharme >From: "Patrick F. Durgin" >Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: IA or the byway >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 02:33:47 -0500 > >Dammit Kasey! Quit sucking me back into the list! Lemme see - > > > Iowa is a red flag term, but anyone who's spent time in Iowa City, as I >have, > > couldn't possibly, or couldn't imagine one possibly, extending such > > generalizations any further than some such distinction between >self-evidence > > and self-consciousness. Unfortunately, the former frequently disguises >as the > > latter. Why is that? [Incidentally, I would expect this question to be >of > > they type crucial to discussions on this "poetics" list, as evidenced by >Kasey > > and Mike's recent exchange. That it's often not is just one reason I >don't > > turn up here myself at times.] > > >Patrick, I'm sorry, could you rephrase the question? It does sound like a >crucial one, but unfortunately, I'm getting lost somewhere in there, >especially around "some such distinction" and where the former is >disguising >itself etc. I'm not being facetious or anything; I really would like to >engage the question, but I 2 dumm to udnerstand this. > > >The Iowa Writers' Workshop (never sure where the apostrophe goes, really) >was established just about the time nearby Chicago was churning out, via >"foreign correspondent" Pound, the equally arbitrary activity of >"Imagisme." Although from Imagism to Vorticism, Pound articulated his >poetics as it evolved into, finally ..., the Poundian notion of >self-evidence - the investiture of the Poundian "image" - seems to have >seeped into what we may find to be the original (IA being the first of its >kind) "workshop model." But Pound's notion, then, of the work of the >"image" was a station on a train to the Cantos, finally ... > >So, to clarify if I can, the wholesale adoption of "self-evidence" that I >have found endemic to poetry workshops (again, my experience is limited) >seems to me an arbitrary interpretation - i.e., outside the fact of Pound's >utilization of that notion of "image" as a part of the a process, leading >finally .... That said, if we can spot a poem's "own terms" or its own >critical values (as you have been attempting with the so-called Iowa School >poems in question), the poem is self-evident (to that degree, the degree to >which it articulates / offers critical values): evident to the self and >evidence OF the self. Here is where we put on our disguises. It's time >for evaluation, with a view to turning the poem to the goodness of doing >what it says it should. It's generosity is just an arrogant attempt to >prove how much it can afford to give away. Anyway, this kind of >evaluation, not yet really founded on anything but "self-evidence" (itself >yet to be articulated: 'I don't know much about art but I know what I >like'), FEELS like self-consciousness. Since, by this time, I can't not >believe that the goodness of the poem is my own goodness (my self living up >to its "word"), and the confessional mode that often, but not always, goes >with my poem becomes a risky descent into probable chaos (pathos) wherein >my uncontrolled sincerity will in no way resemble art, which is so entirely >dissembled as to be self-evident in principle. > >I mean, what the fuck is that? Um, as in: we read someone's poem and >decide it wants to do X. In order to do X, which is self-evident, it's X >after all, and everyone knows what X means or how its multiple connotations >come about in the context of Y, Z, etc, so - In order to do X, that poet to >which X relates as an intentional object must become conscious, through my >"critique," of X. And X is identical, self-evident, to poet. Therefore, >poet is suddenly self-conscious. > >But why? Why is this indentification so compelling? What is the point of >mastering X? Who's "teaching" said workshop? And what do they represent >as a "master"? > >------------ >http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:18:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem/An insomniac's reveries or Reverdies, since we were talking about cubism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed (I can't believe I'm going for the "terminal" second post of the day, but here goes....) Murat, since you mention both O'Hara & sleep, & the hollowness with which Addonizio's "waiting for sleep" rings, I thought I would throw in a "sleep" poem from FOH which I think will also satisfy Kasey's criteria of "strange." Best, Mark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SLEEPING ON THE WING Perhaps it is to avoid some great sadness, as in a Restoration tragedy the hero cries "Sleep! O for a long sound sleep and so forget it!" that one flies, soaring above the shoreless city, veering upward from the pavement as a pigeon does when a car honks or a door slams, the door of dreams, life perpetuated in parti-colored loves and beautiful lies in all different languages. Fear drops away too, like the cement, and you are over the Atlantic. Where is Spain? where is who? The Civil War was fought to free the slaves, was it? A sudden down-draught reminds you of gravity and your position in respect to human love. But here is where the gods are, speculating, bemused. Once you are helpless, you are free, can you believe that? Never to waken to the sad struggle of a face? to travel always over some impersonal vastness, to be out of, forever, neither in nor for? The eyes roll asleep as if turned by the wind and the lids flutter open slightly like a wing. The world is an iceberg, so much is invisible! and was and is, and yet the form, it may be sleeping too. Those features etched in the ice of someone loved who died, you are a sculptor dreaming of space and speed, your hand alone could have done this. Curiosity, the passionate hand of desire. Dead, or sleeping? Is there speed enough? And, swooping, you relinquish all that you have made your own, the kingdom of your self sailing, for you must awake and breathe your warmth in this beloved image whether it's dead or merely disappearing, as space is disappearing and your singularity. --Frank O'Hara . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem/An insomniac's reveries or Reverdies, > since we were talking about cubism >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:10:20 EDT > >In a message dated 9/11/02 12:58:11 AM, ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM writes: > > >In short, there may be reasons for taking exception to > > > >the world view implied by this poem on ideological grounds, but I don't > >..... know > > > >that any such reasons can be subsumed under anything like a comprehensive > > > >set of *formal* ("constructive"?) principles. > > > > > > > >Or maybe they can? Thoughts? > > > > > > > >Kasey > >Kasey, > >Here is a biographical reaction. As a more or less habitual insomniac, I >hate >the last half line, "and we wait together for sleep." Nobody waits for >sleep. >To "fall" asleep is a strangly active act (involving a risky step on one's >part). You can wait all you want. Why did Addonizio replace fall (a perfect >word it seems to me for the process) with wait? Wait is weighty, with >intimations of dying. Addonizio is pumping the poem (whereas O'Hara is >deflating his, the bleeding corpse as a reception). > >Pumping seems to me is the knee jerk impulse of this kind poetry, whatever >it's called. > >Shall I wait to sleep on it before i e-mail this post? I think not. > >Murat <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: THE WEST WIND REPLIES TO SHELLEY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed THE WEST WIND REPLIES TO SHELLEY Great title! Clever! And I really like the opening stanza, too. But I think you could maybe strengthen it with a couple of "action words" (I didn't want to be *too* invasive, so I just put in spacers like <> where you could add something of your own!): O Shelley, the giant of glorious romantic poetry history You, whose eternal power influences those who read you Had idealized me, a wrongly portrait of god I mean, they wouldn't have to go right there, exactly. Those are just suggestions. I really liked the next stanza *a lot*. Especially Ceres. Ceres! You only mentioned Ceres once, and I'd like to see more of Ceres, actually! I added some to what you wrote: Ceres! The winged Ceres-seed cannot be blown without Ceres' wing The Ceres-seed cannot be grown without the "Ceres" presence of Proserpine (aka Ceres) The bounteous Ceres, but not I (other-than-Ceres), can sentence the Ceres-fate of Ceres-growth Maybe I went overboard with Ceres? I mean, you know. But maybe sprinkle a few in there. II I love how you numbered the sections like this. It makes it clear that there's this ... like ... "shift." But, okay, I'm lost when you write: O Shelley, the ghost of fantasized ode of me Huh??? I think you need to be clearer there. "Ode of me"? Oh, wait, no. You mean that's the West Wind speaking? Okay. Yeah ... I see that now. You, whose potency [Great noun!] affects those who heard you Had mistaken med [typo?], a mighty destroyer and preserver ... like ... *computer* pre-server? Because then you'd need a hyphen there. I think those are just called "networks." The sky cannot be stirred without the clouds dancing [great images!] The lightning can not struck without the Pegusus with thunder belt The almighty Zeus, but not I, can accompany the rainfall That is *such* a powerful stanza. It's like, couldn't you really just end it there? "Rainfall." Because then it ends with that, like, falling of the rain. III See, because you're going to start wearing on your readers' patience if you go on too long. I think, though, that this one is okay. O Shelley, the great admirer of the unseen west wind But, isn't all wind unseen? Why point this out???? You, whose interpretation of ocean had misled those who pray you Had addressed me [Great use of IRONY!], a supposing ruler over the roaring ocean [EXCELLENT!] The wave cannot abstract without the hard surface of coast The crevasses cannot be cleaved without the order of Neptune Sun, water, weather, but not I can control the marine I admit I'm a little confused by the above. "hard surface" is *hard* ... and "crevasses" is *soft*. Especially if they're being *cleaved*. IV O Shelley, the fanciful player of imagination You, whose lyre had instructed many those who inspired by you Had kindly made me a musician, of the divine natural I like the above stanza VERY MUCH. But, I had this idea--couldn't you substitute, like, a "regular joe" name for Shelley up there? Because it's kind of getting repetitious. So, like: O Sam, the fanciful etc. Julie, whose lyre had etc. Had kindly made Mark etc. Or am I being ...? Well, never mind. The forest cannot sing without the leaves branches suffering *Powerful.* The lyrist cannot be sound with the absence of Euterpe ??? Did you mean Europe? A splint, a drop, a tick, but not I, can stroke the great inspiration Now, see, someone's going to think that's a *sexual* metaphor. Like, to "stroke the great inspiration" ... right? V O Shelley, the romantic lover of west wind You, who had made my glorious, as Homer had attempt me to blow Odysseus back to Ithaca Had acquainted only this: when I am present, spring will not be far behind I'm having a problem with this last stanza. I mean, you're going along there, through sections I-IV, and you end up ... here? With this? Isn't it kind of a let-down? I did a rewrite, just a tweak here and there, to "pump the level up" a bit: O Shelley, the romantic lover of west wind How do you like it? MORE MORE MORE! How do you like it, how do you Like it? MORE MORE MORE! How do you like it, How do you like it? MORE MORE MORE! (Fade-out.) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:14:21 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: IA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark et al - Let me try to clarify my clarification. I can't find the Pound I'm = thinking of, but I like what you brought in - that's part of it. "hard = light" and "clear edges" is another. But the "image" for Pound changes = with respect to the Vortex and later the Ideogram and can't usefully, = for us, I think, be divorced from the context of that evolution. My categories: "self-evident" and "self-conscious." I identify = prototypical workshop methods with the former and prototypical "poetics" = methods with the latter. Both methods presume a loose sense of = reflection. In poetry writing workshop one reflects on the objet d'art = before them in order to craft a better one, one that is as "good" as it = can be, one that "works for me." But one is also the "author" of said = object, if not necessarily (though frequently) the subject of it as = well. In this situation, one relies on critical values, one's own = (i.e., "finding one's voice"), but always by reference to two things = which must articulate and maintain those values, the poem in question = (aka, "said object") and the "master" (aka, workshop leader). My = contention is that the master's task, identifying and maintaining these = values is sometimes imposing (too much in reference to their own = arbitrary values) and sometimes simply impossible (how do you maintain = critical values in a workshop situation when those values are yet to be = articulated?). I wound up seated on a train from NYC this spring next to a poetry = workshop student who was describing her experience in her program. She = went on and on regarding the techniques each instructor used to maintain = critical values and thus imbue them. I finally asked whether or not the = instructors ever required the students to articulate what these values = are (i.e., what makes "good" instead of "bad" in any given instance). = She didn't understand my question either. Turns out we'd both just seen = the Richter show at the MOMA, so I thought I'd ask her what she thought = was so "good" about it. She was utterly unable to fathom the question = and its presumption that a set of critical values could be articulated = even for the sake of argument (i.e., not for the sake of actually = composing a work). Ultimately, all she could admit was that the = paintings existed, and their existence was self-evident. It seems to me the space (generic, I suppose) opened up by the notion of = "poetics" confronts the same questions but in the sense that it goes = beyond the work as an object and considers the processes of composition = and appreciation. In that sense, it is self-reflective (those = considerations themselves being processural, in flux). Now, what I = didn't yet address is the reliance on one's own critical values in = either a workshop situation of one in which some "poetics" model is = assumed. The authorial process comes into question with respect to = creative (or first) causes - but if we are impatient with the notion of = creation ex nihilo, we adopt a Deleuzian model of the passage of = utterances, deflecting intentions, disputing motives in principle. = Poetics privileges the disputation of such principles - workshops may = never question them, since they are already the workshop's raison = d'etre. To the degree that an author identifies with their motives, = they become culpable for the work done on behalf of those motives - this = is the level of critique I association with workshops.=20 Culled this from an unrelated project - and posting here (viz. Poundian = self-evidence) because I can't find my copy of "A Few Don'ts" and hope = someone can and will post here. I think the IA WW was established in = 1926? Pound came to London in 1909, aged twenty-four, joining up again with = Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) upon her arrival in 1911, aged twenty-six. That = same year, art critic of the Chicago Tribune Harriet Monroe founded the = little magazine Poetry, naming Pound the publication's "foreign = correspondent" (Monroe, Vol. 1 and Jones, 16). H.D., in the meantime, = had established a deep relationship with another poet in London, the = British Richard Aldington, and when the two brought their poems to Pound = for criticism in 1912, it was as a function of the prankster that he = announced to the poets that they were "Imagistes," while it was as a = function of the sponsor that he insisted H.D. sign her work, "H.D. = 'imagiste'," and that he wrote to Monroe, the administrator,=20 =20 I've had luck again, and am sending you some modern stuff by an = American. I say modern, for it is in the laconic speech of the = Imagistes, even if the subject is classic ... This is the sort of = American stuff that I can show here and in Paris without its being = ridiculed. (cited in Jones, 17)=20 =20 Pound admitted to having pulled the prank that was the naming of = Imagisme, and whose primary tenets as a practice are found in Pound's = own particular poetics as early as 1908, or, having "invented [it] to = launch H.D. and Aldington" (Pound cited in Jones, 19). Aldington's = poems, selected and published with the moniker "one of the 'Imagistes'," = apeared in the November 1912 issue of Poetry, with H.D.'s work turning = up (as "H.D. 'imagiste'") in the January 1913 issue. Two months later, = amidst a good deal of speculation as to where these "Imagistes" had come = from so suddenly, and what they hoped to acheive (not to mention how = they hoped to acheive it), Poetry published F.S. Flint's "Imagisme" = along with "A Few Don'ts by an Imagiste," written by Pound himself. = Asked to define Imagisme, Pound does so negatively. By August of that = year, Rebecca West's article "Imagisme," published in the New Freewoman: = An Individualist Review from London, was feeding "the only clear = account" of the movement back to the British audience, introducing long = quotes from "A Few Don'ts" and "Imagisme" from the March issue of Poetry = by declaring, "there has arisen a little band who desire the poet to be = as disciplined and efficient at his job as the stevedore" (West, 86). = But Pound, functioning as the sponsor of Imagisme, was its most vehement = critic, as evinced in an article written for the Fortnightly Review in = 1914 when he had already left Imagisme behind for what he was calling = Vorticism:=20 =20 The imagist's images have a variable significance like the signs a, b, = and x in algebra ... the author must use his image because he sees it or = feels it, not because he thinks he can use it to back up some creed or = some system of ethics or economics ... (cited in Jones, 21)=20 =20 In other words, the Imagiste runs the risk of utilizing the image out of = proportion to the aesthetic, what is seen and felt; "the author," = proper, will not succumb to the inordinate use of the image that Pound = saw interlopers as embracing. Not only, as with Aristotle's description = of analogy in the Poetics, may one "apply an alien term, and then deny = of that term one of its proper attributes," but one might ascribe = additional attributes that the true Imagiste would not (42). In a = letter to the USAmerican poet Amy Lowell, who was swiftly moving into = the London Imagiste scene, bent on out-sponsoring the movement by way of = proposing an annual anthology to be titled Some Imagist Poets, Pound's = sense of losing his grip on the implications of his prank is evident. = It gets away from him by virtue of the fact that his means of = administration were being usurped by Lowell's infamously deep = pocketbook, supposedly offset by the democratizing of the movement = which, in reality, was merely the transference of a poetics Pound had = already put behind him.=20 =20 I should like the name "Imagisme" to retain some sort of meaning. It = stands, or I should like it to stand, for hard light, clear edges. I = can not trust any democratized committee to maintain that standard. = Some will be splay-footed and some sentimental. (cited in Jones, 22) ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:21:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Desert City Poetry Series -- Winston-Salem, NC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please Spread Far and Wide: Who: Lee Ann Brown and sister Beth Brown Al-Rawi What: Very first reader/poet/performance ever in the Desert City Poetry Series When: Thursday, September 19th, 2002 at 7:30pm Where: Project Space 211 (PS211: http://ps211.org/start.html) 211 E. Third St., Winston-Salem, North Carolina Why: Lee Ann -- as many of you know -- writes exciting poems (hands down or up) Beth plays a mean-ass fiddle and this is the start of something big The Desert City Reading Series is the solidification of a dream. Once a month -- from now 'til armageddon -- we'll bring in poets from this round globe to entertain and astound. Future featured poets: C. S. Giscombe (Nov.), Evie Shockley (Oct.), Juliana Spahr (tentative), Jane Mead (spring 2003), and many many more. For more info contact me: Ken, DCPS Director, rumblek@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:24:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: from "K. Silem Mohammad" at Sep 12, 2002 09:41:19 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kasey, I think what you say here: > "What matters for O'Hara is the tension between two different tendencies: 1) > the tendency to break off at a "natural" spot (roughly iambic-pentameter > length, say), and 2) the tendency to disrupt that "naturalness" by enjambing > in unlikely spots. The specifics are superfluous. What matters is the > larger gesture." is correct, but for what it's worth, FOH's unpublished letters include one to an editor (can't remember who, Don Allen?) where he rather meticulously corrects the linebreaks in a galley version of his poem. So, yes, the larger gesture, but that larger gesture was something he seems to have been quite serious about. "Hod Carrying" is my favorite poem of the day, I think it may even be "sublimely terrible." -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:50:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem/An insomniac's reveries or Reverdies, since we were talking about cubism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Yeah, that's how trying to sleep feels like. A great hubbub. I had never read (I think) this O'Hara poem. How wonderful and strange it is, that referrance to Restoration tragedy. Was that the 18th century version of Camp? Perhaps next time I'll try the inside of a car to fall sleep? I'm flying to Seattle tonigh for a short trip. Perhaps I'll fall asleep reading O'Hara's poem. Thanks. Murat In a message dated 9/12/02 1:41:08 PM, markducharme@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >Murat, since you mention both O'Hara & sleep, & the hollowness with which >Addonizio's "waiting for sleep" rings, I thought I would throw in a "sleep" >poem from FOH which I think will also satisfy Kasey's criteria of "strange." > >Best, > >Mark > >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > >SLEEPING ON THE WING > >Perhaps it is to avoid some great sadness, >as in a Restoration tragedy the hero cries "Sleep! >O for a long sound sleep and so forget it!" >that one flies, soaring above the shoreless city, >veering upward from the pavement as a pigeon >does when a car honks or a door slams, the door >of dreams, life perpetuated in parti-colored loves >and beautiful lies in all different languages. >Fear drops away too, like the cement, and you >are over the Atlantic. Where is Spain? where is >who? The Civil War was fought to free the slaves, >was it? A sudden down-draught reminds you of gravity >and your position in respect to human love. But >here is where the gods are, speculating, bemused. >Once you are helpless, you are free, can you believe >that? Never to waken to the sad struggle of a face? >to travel always over some impersonal vastness, >to be out of, forever, neither in nor for? > >The eyes roll asleep as if turned by the wind >and the lids flutter open slightly like a wing. >The world is an iceberg, so much is invisible! >and was and is, and yet the form, it may be sleeping >too. Those features etched in the ice of someone >loved who died, you are a sculptor dreaming of space >and speed, your hand alone could have done this. >Curiosity, the passionate hand of desire. Dead, >or sleeping? Is there speed enough? And, swooping, >you relinquish all that you have made your own, >the kingdom of your self sailing, for you must awake >and breathe your warmth in this beloved image >whether it's dead or merely disappearing, >as space is disappearing and your singularity. > >--Frank O'Hara > >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > >>From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: The Iowa School Poem/An insomniac's reveries or Reverdies, >> since we were talking about cubism >>Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:10:20 EDT >> >>In a message dated 9/11/02 12:58:11 AM, ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM writes: >> >> >In short, there may be reasons for taking exception to >> > >> >the world view implied by this poem on ideological grounds, but I don't >> >..... know >> > >> >that any such reasons can be subsumed under anything like a comprehensive >> > >> >set of *formal* ("constructive"?) principles. >> > >> > >> > >> >Or maybe they can? Thoughts? >> > >> > >> > >> >Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:05:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: an Assembling invitation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PLEASE CIRCULATE FREELY: this is an open invitation to contribute to=20 5'9" an assembled magazine whereby every page is created in an edition of 30 copies by the = contributors and then gather and bound (every 30 contributors). contributions can be multiples, rubberstamp, handprinted, painted, = collaged, or anything else (use your imagination). there is no = restriction on subject matter. every contributor will receive a copy of = the edition in which they appear. GENERAL 5'9" GUIDELINES:=20 1) Produce your own image in an edition of 30 copies. 2) Size: 5 1/2 by 8 1/2 inches. 2D or 3D images accepted. 3) Sign & Date the images (if applicable) 4) send all 30 copies to: "5'9": an assembling" 1339 19th ave nw = calgary alberta canada t2m 1a5 PLEASE CIRCULATE FREELY & INTERNATIONALLY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: the state of this list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I still think there's some value in this thread, so I'm going to keep posting on the dead horse. And I'm sorry, this's my longest post. I agree with Jim Behrle here, when he says: That is why we must--why I think it is our poetic duty to--look at, and comment on, as much of the art that is out there as we can. Art should be met and challenged, just as you say posts to this list should. Jim Behrle says: It's the literary equivilent of pulling her pigtails, so pick on someone you're own size.> I think that Kim Addonizio is our size. She writes poems and puts them out into the world. In my view, poems are attempts at bringing the world to itself. To bring it into its beingness. So all art, in so attempting, should be taken seriously enough to give it a public airing. To several readers on this list, KA's poems don't help us live in the world. And to my view, poems such as this one of hers are not wasted time, but a fundamental argument of what poetry is for. I have to admit, the world she depicts in this poem on sleeping troubles me in its, to my mind, overt simplicity and unqueried associations. If people take the simplicity in her poem seriously, to salve their day, then they can easily look to more, I believe, truthful work (like Rae Armantrout's work from the BAP, if you'd like an example), and say it's too much work, too difficult. The existence of Addonizio's poetry works directly against the possible existence of Armantrout's. The worlds compete. I believe it is our duty as poets to work with these. To evaluate them. To be their advocates. Jim Behrle writes: There's no pleasing some on this list, who don't want to be pleased, who cannot enjoy the success of others, who remain here only to jerk-off.> This, I believe is fundamentally untrue. I'm distrustful of blanket condemnations (even when using the word "some" people). Calling people names hurts their feelings, and works against the tone you're wanting to set on the list. By the way, I look forward to getting a copy of TBAP 2002. Some of my favorite poets are represented there. Tonally yours, JG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:59:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: The State of This List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't have a problem with challenging discussions. I do, however, have = a problem with people calling other people "insufferable dicks," or = "fucking jerks" or insulting a person's intellience or abilities on this = list. Where I live, these are fighting words. If you say them, you risk = getting your ass kicked, or, more likely, shot. Much of the hostility I = see on this list is nothing more than e-mail bravado posted by people = who probably wouldn't have the guts to back up their words physically. I = joined this list to find new magazines and venues, make contacts, = possibly friends, and to learn things I don't know. I'd say the level of = civility on this list needs considerable improvement. Vernon Frazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE POET (insert name) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello everyone. I'm starting to put together a new little magazine called WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE POET (insert name). Sort of a detective magazine, researching information about a particular deceased poet, as well as looking for anyone who might have their own information to share about the poet's life and/or their writing. The first poet of interest is Merle Hoyleman. She published one remarkable book in 1966 titled ASP OF THE AGE, Ashphodel Press. There were only 326 copies printed, so you can imagine the difficulty in getting your hands on one. I had the good fortune of reading a copy from Jonathan Williams's private library while visiting him a few months ago at his Jargon Society in North Carolina. Wish I could quote her for you right now, beautiful lines, mysterious. She lived in Pittsburgh, where I plan on visiting soon, after nailing down her last address in an attempt to find someone in the neighborhood who might have known her, or at least known of her. I've exhausted all other forms of research with Pittsburgh about her. Taking a bus there to see the house is about all I have left. Jonathan Williams and his partner Thomas Meyer have already been a big help, lending their personal accounts of this wild woman poet. Jonathan went to Pittsburgh to visit the poet at her house a couple times in the 60's. Many of the folks who knew her no longer exist, James Laughlin for instance, although I am grateful to the New Directions editors who have allowed me to view the poems LETTERS TO CHRISTOPHER, by Merle Hoyleman, published in one their New Directions Annuals some decades ago. If anyone out there has any information about Merle Hoyleman or her work, and would like to submit a few pages to this new magazine, I'd be delighted to hear from you. There are so many talented and exciting poets who fall through the cracks over the years, and it would be good to resurrect their work, or at least exhume their vanishing histories for a glimpse or two. Thank you all, CAConrad, Philadelphia "To make the world a sensuous extension of man rather than have man remain an instrument of an alien world, is the goal of the Situationist revolution. For us the reconstruction of life and the rebuilding of the world are one and the same desire. To achieve this the tactics of subversion have to be extended from schools, factories, universities, to confront the Spectacle directly. Rapid transport systems, shopping centres, museums, as well as the various new forms of culture and the media, must be considered as targets, areas for scandalous activity." --Raoul Vaneigem, SOCIETY OF THE SPECTACLE "In the present circumstances, the only thing worth globalising is dissent." --Arundhati Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:08:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Unsolicited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

The following advertisement for a device appeared today on screen with the various attempts on UB Poetics to see through preliminary distinctions between "self evident" and "self conscious."  Since the prior of these is something reproduced, I'm wondering in what sense its merely numerical and therefore equalizing "democratic" appearance on-screen portends for the production of consciousness, over its reproduction. 

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It's trash.  But what does it thereby "mean" in terms of what is to be done with it?  The self-conscious ends at a fairly low threshold of actual pain; and doesn't "self-evident" most actually mean DOA?  Or what form light carries to the eye.  Like, it doesn't "do" Anything unsolicited.



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========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:11:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: the state of this list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Vernon Frazer writes: >I don't have a problem with challenging discussions. I do, however, >have a >problem with people calling other people "insufferable dicks," >or "fucking >jerks" or insulting a person's intellience or abilities on >this list. >Where I live, these are fighting words. If you say them, >you risk getting >your ass kicked, or, more likely, shot. Much of the >hostility I see on >this list is nothing more than e-mail bravado >posted by people who >probably wouldn't have the guts to back up their >words physically. This is in incredibly poor taste. Jim Behrle 3 Washburn Terr #3 Brookline, MA 02446 I don't enjoy idle threats. Come by any time for tea or to tussle. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:16:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi. i sent that last e-mail, subject line "WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE POET (insert name)" a bit too hastily. noticed a bunch of typos, and problems with the information, and wondered if you could simply NOT post it, please, and i'll submit something to be posted another time. thank you, CAConrad "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:23:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Behrle's State of the List In-Reply-To: <3D80A44E.20321.A18DA17@localhost> from "J Gallaher" at Sep 12, 2002 02:27:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Behrle wrote: > poems have been selected at random for crucifixion here. It's > the literary equivilent of pulling her pigtails, so pick on someone > you're own size.> > > little about other peoples' poems, or poetry, or discussing poetry. > There's no pleasing some on this list, who don't want to be > pleased, who cannot enjoy the success of others, who remain here > only to jerk-off.> Jim, I'm really just seconding what J Gallagher wrote in response to you, but feel compelled to ask in addition, who in world are you talking about here? Surely you should identify these "fucking jerks" out of courtesy so they might defend themselves. If, for example, I was one of the "fucking jerks," I'd want the opportunity to explain how my own comparison of Ashbery and Addonozio was something other than masturbation. Look, I know you to be a smart, kind and affable guy, and I surely don't want this thread to get flamey -- believe me, I've been there with close friends before and it sucks. The fact is though that I think you're way off the mark in your ire here. There are *very* good reasons to discuss poetic value, and if Addonozio's poem was chosen arbitrarily - as it self-admittedly was by the person who chose it - that doesn't make it any less useful to the goal of trying to describe competing poetic methodologies. The notion that we can all just get along writing our whatevers just doesn't suffice, if we think of a poem as an action with any agency attached to it at all. I think people on this list have very good reasons for liking the poems and poets they do, and many of them can talk informatively and at length about those reasons. If there's some hot air along with it, well, hell, welcome to mother earth. Warmly, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:56:32 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: Re: the state of this list---revised version. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

To who ever it may concern:

(Could we terminate this subject?, it seems to lead to the somewhat tiresome you & me, better or worse, right or wrong saga. )

Anyway :

J Gallaher wrote

By the way, I look forward to getting a copy of TBAP 2002. Some
of
my favorite poets are represented there.

--- Same here. I don't know which poets are in it. But as long as it's poetry, i am willing to believe.

i wish more people were posting their 'stuff' (speaking of poetry, hence POETICS). It makes my mornings oh so special when i see the little word Poem, hiding beside a subject, almost sort of hither side of the rest of the emails.

on that note, here is A Poem - (and yeah i am sorry, it is long)

Arendt’s Road Map
Description, dates and days in detail - almost.

Friday ~

Return books (?) write to
room carrying packed & Ready To Go
Bags, and a car waiting simply for
directions.

The day is full of starring
softly almost eagerly at leaving, expecting
tomorrows welcomes’: the eye of
the route, were today’s waiting will
take you only so far – the next

part of the waiting. And the nights
in Philly, too hot to sleep
University area, precious
intellect, cling close to me, for I am
to travel far off. Yet from any
distance, ever to reach, any
what to call it; final destination.

Not a continuos arrival. But
    eternal. Turn off lamps.
Or did you stay late into
the twilight of morning. One last
hello, to put down in journal. Or
have all friends left
already …

Familiar faces
in every other town. You
think, someday, again
Let’s go there. And why
Not. It might happen,
even though as you close
your eyes, only the memory
of water, flashes before

any time was even there. And
you know; you think so little
of promises. Only knowing
thinking it – for later.
Comes around to it.


 Saturday Morning ~

I leave early you wrote.
‘I am ready to go’. and
that was only on Friday.
How strange those few
hours seem, don’t they.
When you are waiting to
take off. And nothing else
really matters. You
worry maybe, but mostly
it is the end – someway
it all falls into place
and ends itself, as

you start the engine.
Watching your
history fall farther and
farther away, from
your rearview mirror
and you think, maybe
this is something –
I made up. Did it really happen?

Our lives, at times so intertwined
with others long periods of time
and so it strikes you; How
will I, how did I
ever do without. But
aren’t those feelings,
memories so close
yet so far off, when
you are leaving to go
somewhere. Thinking
This is it. This is it.
This is what I’ve been
practicing

for this? What this.
Moments shared
with friends. Through
a silence that was
never there. Still Maybe
could it have been so
You were that sound.
‘Could I?’ say you.
Maybe, So what if --

You would hear the whisper
of that same old distant
echo. Like a promise. Of
what or whom how
and when.

Later that week ~

A friend of mine
said he’d been seeing
you around. And
that you too looked like
you were waiting for
something.

'The Leaving', I said.
Makes it the waiting less,
Don’t know. Think of it.
That was on the
Sunday – and I knew
that you were on
your way.     
 
Saneh Saadati


 



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========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:33:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: the state of this list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It feels like I'm standing in a big circle of people watching this go down, half-looking over my shoulder to see if the teacher is going to cut our recess short... On 12/9/02 at 5.11p, Jim Behrle (tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM) said: >Vernon Frazer writes: > >>I don't have a problem with challenging discussions. I do, however, >have a >>problem with people calling other people "insufferable dicks," >or "fucking >>jerks" or insulting a person's intellience or abilities on >this list. >>Where I live, these are fighting words. If you say them, >you risk getting >>your ass kicked, or, more likely, shot. Much of the >hostility I see on >>this list is nothing more than e-mail bravado >posted by people who >>probably wouldn't have the guts to back up their >words physically. > >This is in incredibly poor taste. > >Jim Behrle >3 Washburn Terr #3 >Brookline, MA 02446 > >I don't enjoy idle threats. Come by any time for tea or to tussle. > >--Jim Behrle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:15:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Vernon Frazer writes: > > > >>I don't have a problem with challenging discussions. I do, however, >have a > >>problem with people calling other people "insufferable dicks," >or "fucking > >>jerks" or insulting a person's intellience or abilities on >this list. > >>Where I live, these are fighting words. If you say them, >you risk getting > >>your ass kicked, or, more likely, shot. Much of the >hostility I see on > >>this list is nothing more than e-mail bravado >posted by people who > >>probably wouldn't have the guts to back up their >words physically. > > > >This is in incredibly poor taste. > > > >Jim Behrle THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE IT!!!! --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:34:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: September 1752 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII September 1752 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 In September, 1752, September 3-13 did not exist. In September, 1752, September 11 did not exist. The ghost of the future visits a past 250 years ago. We did find the couple from the Towers suspended in mid-air, their skin touching skin, screaming what words in 200-kph wind rushing towards them, the ground rushing - floors collapsing in the great container behind them - strusses breaking - speed picking up - as weight is added to weight - but never the speed of people falling, turned internally to dust and fire - the charisma of burned flesh - not left, for a moment - whole and together and identified - In September, 1752, the collision and recuperation of calenders - the elimination of these autumnal days - they're turned around - the future anterior of ghosts - already visited (everyone's living there) (everyone's waiting for the earth to start again) === 1752 Su Mo Su Tu Mo We Tu Th We Fr Th Sa Fr 1 2 14 1 15 2 16 14 17 18 17 19 18 20 19 21 20 22 21 23 22 24 25 24 26 25 27 26 28 27 29 28 30 29 ==== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:11:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I gather some people were upset by my last post, so I'll offer a = qualified apology.=20 I spent 30 years working days and nights in high-risk neighborhoods. I = also did a fair amount of recreation there. I've seen more violence than = the average person in the course of my work and play. In 1994, when = Connecticut made the national news for its drive-by shootings, my job = usually had me traveling to within a block of where the shootings had = occurred the previous evening. As a case worker, I routinely had clients = threaten me. Several of them were later arrested for murder. In these = environments, you learn to use language that doesn't offend people or to = use rough language to hold someone at bay.=20 In short, I was speaking from my own experience, and the environment = I've lived in. I can't apologize for my own experience. I will say that = I'm sorry if my language shocked anybody on the list, but I also wanted = to say something online that would wake people up to the consequences of = their own words.=20 The person whose words I chose as examples was just one of many who = rsortd to name-calling. His words just happened to be the first that = came to mind when I posted earlier.=20 Name-calling, however, is not the only problem I see on the list. In the = course of heated debates, I've seen some people on the list insult each = other's intelligence and competence in ways that could make a person = lose control. This list functions as a public place. When one person = calls another person names or insults a person, it embarrasses the = person in front of as many as 800 subscribers. I think, when a = discussion reaches that point, that it should continue on backchannel.=20 And, for the person who envisioned a playground fight emerging, at my = age I don't get into fights at recess. I would want a ring, gloves and a = referee. I try to respect people's ideas on this list, whether I agree with them = or not. I haven't been insulted, myself, but I've been very aware of the = sting others on the list must feel when they take a shot from someone on = the list. I'm writing in their defense, not mine. Vernon Frazer =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:30:31 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. What do you think of C Bernstein's essays? The one that interests me (as well as he oes in A Poetics) is Writing and Method there he does - and think this is the point Bernstin can be strongely critical and even caustic but he is by and large trying to see that all the various schools contribute into the poetic so to speak: the syrupy he maybe would put into a poem that has what he calls "polyvocality" now I was doing just such a poem except that Ive halted while I go through Pound's cantos (and also think more about what I'm f=doing if anything) and I'm using a few books eg Cookson's and anothe book (more recent ) (I've read The Pound Era)..but the point is we need to study all these guys and I havent been through the cantos (the list of what I havent read and feel I should is very long). But certainly I can see that Pound was, in his (the) language itself, very conscious of the need to "toughen up" but his language is quite direct, cuts like a diamond and so on: yet can be suddenly lyrical: Pound is almost pre-empting what Bernstein calls for: the fragmentations and so on...the very idea of the image, of the ideogram: and the mant 'voives" in so many languages....that could lead to a poem in ALL languages incorporating all cultures and of course in a sense The wasteland was one of the first cooperative efforts as Pound shaped it structurally: clearly he influenceed many many writers,but in particular Creeley, Olson and Zukovsky (he ignored Stein I think -interesting that W H Auden used Steinic language in The Orators which is a fascinating poem) but Zukovsky (by and large is more fascinated I say MORE - wih etymolygy and the permutations of words and of meanings and codings and transliterations etc) the hard edge in him comes out in those austere lyrics "80 Flowers" (but in both ppersonal also gets in there tosome degree: rferences to his family and so on)..... now how many students of Iowa (I'm not sure where it is you guys have so many states, the US is so vast....) (I remember we used to get the Nat Geog. and seeing the fields of corn in Iowa: I'd love to go there one day.....) and some of "A" is brilliant: another work I want to look at in more detail: but even Eliot was agin' the mush (its hard not to slip into _the poetic_) but Williams of Paterson is maybe a better model. I read "The Book of Questions " and for me it had some fascinating moments but there is too much abstraction, too much vagueness: if someone can counter-convince me I'll have another look) I also feel that that is the problem with Robert Kelly's work but I believe (what little I've seen and heard of it eg via mark Scroggins's book on Zukofsky) that Ronald Johnson's Ark is a great work - another huge American poem!! - but it was expensive on abe and I havent looked for it lately - I think (what I think of as) the best of the Language poets can mix and interplay with "mush" (or semi-mush) and "the technical language" as Berrigan writes in one of his sonnets " I too read the technical books" (something like that) I think I'm basically in agreement with you Bill on this one! Except that eg a young friend showed me some of his poems and it was very hard to say: now this my friend is just too syrupy! He needs to study a big range of poetry (he's young enough to catch up) and to practice and self-criticise....I on the other hand am a bit lazy: that's why I wanted to get hold of that (quite basic ) book called "Creative Writing" as when I "restarted" writing it gave me some excellent "exercises" ...if I was younger I'd go to somewhere like Columbia to get a grip on all the "BIG" works and so on then go to an MLA school or whatever they are but reserve the right to re-churn it all (not reject it all)...I dont know what this Iowa school is but there are/is a lot of poetry that is very popular and the writers are widely published but they are basically just not very extraordinary...I think the "badnesss" is in part a philosophical-political-poetical problem as much as any questionof talent (some of the writers are very intelligent eg in Fence). Another example is that I sent some poems to an editor and he acepted one (now that's good ) but the poem itself I dont think is as "radical" as I'd like to see - the editor in question is quite perspicacious - but...what I'm getting at is that ultimately editors can restrict one's work: who and how would Allen Sondheim's complete work (can it ever be said to be complete - is the term now redundant in the Sondheimian era that is upon us? And I'm thinking also of the obviously huge amount of online vispo etc) be ppublished or what mag would put one of his poems in : one alone would mean nothing without the others" somewhat like the other long american poems...although Alan is not consciously doing an epic I dont think: but there is an neo - epochal look about it!! So maybe we have exhausted "normative" poetry...some of the language poetry is starting to wear a weary look...but the best endures i ha' nae doot! Cheers, Richard Taylor. (If I've wanderd please forgive an old windy man in a corner!) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 4:13 AM Subject: Re: the state of this list > In a message dated 9/11/02 10:45:35 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > << Yes but can we separate the politics and the text (cf the > > L=A=N==G...theories etal?) even at the "local" level...I used to want to > > keep politics at an arm's length: its a question not of rhetroic etc butbhow > > much and also yyou know about "distance" and masks and so on - and the > > readership. Etal...Richard Taylor > > >> > > I don't disagree. Bias is strategy. But if we're privileging quality work, > we all know that no one methodolgy owns the lock. Only the worst kind of > crank would suggest that the Iowa method (whatever that is), or langpo or > vispo or repo aesthetics is incapable of producing a quality poem. My guess > is that most listmembers are smarter than that. And let's not forget there's > no accounting for taste. But it can all make for some enjoyable give and > take. My own tendency is to use the syrupy stuff for toilet paper. Good for > the hemorrhoids. But that's just MY digestive system. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:08:42 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the state of this list The Derridaen Pipe Smoke Dilemma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But Jim. I say things that I would say to your face: but not to some guy who - good man as he might be - simply would not understand the subleties of the politcal situation. I wouldnt swear at people or shout at them or try to hit: might get heated in discussions: but its a waste of time telling a dog it shouldnt bite you: so a lot of those guys who want to or have the ability to shoot you: well that reflects the bad state of your country: and mine, there are too many people with guns (every day over here (Aotearoa or New Zealand) just about,there's another killing which was unheard of pre Rogernomics (read Thatcherism or Reaganism)) .... more likely though one is likely to receive a bunch of fives, but that doesnt mean that one shouldnt speak up when one feels strongly, and one feels the other person might listen. Now in the anniversary of S 11 people have to keep the discussion going: otherwise you buy into a lot of crap the media feed you and certain prominent politicians: but, yes, personal abuse is not good. Another angle: "sticks and stones may break my bones but words shall never hurt me is a chant I heard as a child"....powerful as words are I think that what's said is said and what's done is done. An attack on someone's ideas is not (or the attackee) shouldnt let it matter as the attackee in question needs to have a strong self: that means you can concentrate on the issues. Paradoxically it might be good that we cant get too close to each other: gives ups a freedom to say all sorts of crazy things....someone is probably right now writing a thesis on: "The nature and pre nature of the chocolate ontology and the trans slipping dialcritical dialectic of computer social dialogue and cybernetic social, (given the alienated pre-romantic pre-slide) and the politics of distance (as finicked and fined by the negation of the new alienation as found) and the otherness (consumated or Other) of the electronic bunch of fives with reference to 100 million french ( with deep inter-analytical prefiguration of the intra signification of the upper case (precendent to the [[["prop-er"]]] and the moral-psychologiical nad indeed [[[[{{((class-national)))}}}]]]] questions thus raised as one [[[{{((raises))}}]]] a pint of beer to one's mouth of a Sunday) and other philosophers and sociologists in the post- sondheiniam era with reference to gobbblydy gobbldy which by the agze [(commonly refernced tendentiously by les autres as "the gaze"[not as assumed or subsumed "THE GaZe"], or indeed, the cross-historicity (and indeed cross copulative) (probably here Kevin Killian's name is raised in vain) into a joyous Eigen Value of possiblity: to various songs of vibrational influence [minus 11 13 19 etc] as/is/was/would/could/should/are perceived derived and permuted and transloggated by the Derridean pipe smoke dilemma......." Richard Taylor Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:11 AM Subject: Re: the state of this list > Vernon Frazer writes: > > >I don't have a problem with challenging discussions. I do, however, >have a > >problem with people calling other people "insufferable dicks," >or "fucking > >jerks" or insulting a person's intellience or abilities on >this list. > >Where I live, these are fighting words. If you say them, >you risk getting > >your ass kicked, or, more likely, shot. Much of the >hostility I see on > >this list is nothing more than e-mail bravado >posted by people who > >probably wouldn't have the guts to back up their >words physically. > > This is in incredibly poor taste. > > Jim Behrle > 3 Washburn Terr #3 > Brookline, MA 02446 > > I don't enjoy idle threats. Come by any time for tea or to tussle. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ongoing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ongoing heaven - earth - black - yellow :: is black, the cosmos - are vast - a desolate wasteland - sun fills - moon sets in west it's dusk - from 7 to 9 morning constellations - line up - measure word, they spread out cold - comes - heat - goes - autumn - harvesting - winter - hiding, concealing - intercalary timing - leftover residue - becomes one tenth - measurement of years - so lu - bamboo pitches - shift position - open - clouds - ascend, galloping, - sending - rain - dew - forms - becoming - frost - gold - gives birth - beautiful - water - jade - emanates Kun mountain - summit - double-edged dagger - furiously named - huge - gate-tower - pearl - called - light - darkness - treasure - fruit - plum - apple - many - vegetables - mustard - ginger - sea - salted - rivers - fresh - fishscales - hidden depths - feathers - circling above - fire - dragon - emperor - teaching - phoenix - royal - official - men - beginning - making - writing - characters - then - uniforms, wearing - robes < clothing - skirts expel - throne - yield - country - yao - tang - has - predicted - console - people - strike down - guilty - hold - boundary - talk - and test with scalding - trying case - at court - query - way - bequeath - bow - doubting - sections - love - raise hosts - minister - prostrate - army - barbarians - near - far - reality - ration - guest - returning cries - white - colt - grazes - there - change - covers - grass weeds - (vegetation) - trust - attain - myriad (10,000) - directions (square) - covering - person - issues - (giving to) - four - great - five - (is) normal - respect - (connector / alone) - rearing - children - flattering - destroys - injures - women - adore - chastity - unyielding - imitate - pleasing - genius - know - what passes - certainty - attainment - ability - never - neglect - deception - other - brief - disintegration - reliance - on self (self-reliance) - long - faith - cause should - be covered (protect your faith) tool (utensil) - desire - trouble - (quantity) measure-word - ink - (of) sorrow, sadness - (on silk) - printed (sadness stains poetry - praise small (lamb) - sheep (sheep) - view, scenery - lines - tied or lined-up - wisdom - restraint, conquering - study - makes (creates) - sage - benevolence - ... - name stands [...] - evil - breathing public - rectification - fit - dwell - leisure - ch'in - 4-stringed instrument - good - wonderful - question problem - gate - as well - === - === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:15:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > New arrival from local loop on line 5. We're running ourselves into the ground; we're flying in the air - (5) ? says, "We're running ourselves into the ground; we're flying in the air -" (4) ? says, "Sometimes I think our hands are broken across scriptfiles and screens -" "Are you speaking across the furious air," Lulu said, "or - (5) ? says, "Are you speaking across the furious air," Lulu said, "or -" (4) ? says, "Something or someone is coming..." Someone is leaving; we're all leaving our text behind - what's left (5) ? says, "Someone is leaving; we're all leaving our text behind - what's left" (4) ? says, "is inscription, ourselves sidewalked, screamed, our names" smudged, enrollments, listings, scripts, data-basings, the building (5) ? says, "smudged, enrollments, listings, scripts, data-basings, the building" (4) ? says, "is listing, the building is a list, a whisper, the building" the phoneme building.... (5) ? says, "the phoneme building...." /quit > The conversations you have seen here are not real, they > are trapped in a world between reality and computer nets... > > Connection closed by foreign host. === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:15:10 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Shell Fragments of the Coming War Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shell Fragments of the Coming War Bangles for the Whore of Babylon Reed house, reed house, Wall. O Wall, Harken reed house, O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubarn Tutu, Tear down your home and build a boat. The reeds grew in that fertile plain saying- "Mountain, mountain in the sky-sky, Break-break the god-god and make-make him die-die. American Humbaba, show your labyrinthine face, your entrail face, your mazed ph(r)ases, and (a)mac(z)ed fa(e)ces.." The bounty gathered to war... Gilgamesh and Enkidu froze and stared into the woods' great depth and height saying- "We are all being-being digested by this Monster-monstrosa.. Lets us gnash-gnash together like stones-stones in our prison-prison.." These nations united under the banner of destruction, whose minds are numb to creation, numb to knowledge, numb to the dieing reeds, numb to the signs, the earth seeds.. Mixed upon the altar of the land, blood and men, and women hiding their faces among the bulrushes.. God of burning, God of Wrath, twisted men mangled by the machines in words.. Then he brought in sandalwood from the high mountains and built a Kawila, an Ark, for the world will be ravished by the flood. look for a green shoot of qassab, reed in the hearth, it was then the deluge descended on the world. it is now the h-earth is stoked.. the globe grows warm for Humwawa smells the perfume of your doom, you who lounge dreaming in your dead r'aba.. The boy wore a scarlet gown with ropes of imitation pearls and heavy gold earrings. His hair, combed and scented, hung round his shoulders; his breasts were padded and his face was made up.. Gentle whore of Babylon, you have visited my village and wrestled among the winds.. we are going to the marshes which have dried and died.. marching into the foreign city with the exploding censors of our failed religion... doom patrols: Shatt al Arab. some six thousand The Marshes covered of the country round Qurna, Shatt al Arab. There the Tigris; the central marshes, of the Shatt miles of the country round the Shatt al Arab. and winter; and temporary marsh, was the predominant where qassab (Phragmites communis) was temporary marsh, which was only in the direction floods and was Shatt al Gharraf, south of the Euphratesand west that leaves the country round Qurna, brachyceras). This area can ferment marsh where qassab (Phragmites marshes, east of of the Euphrates; Shatt al Gharraf, al Arab. They the Tigris; the central marshes, southwest in the direction country round Qurna, where during the floods into the eastern the predominant vegetation; seasonal, and the souther marshes, east of the Tigris; of the Euphratesand al Arab. They consisted Shatra on the Shatt area can be conveniently divided east of the Tigris; which was only some permanent marsh below be conveniently divided into the direction of Nasiriya.. Marshes covered some six sedge (Scirpus brachyceras). This area thousand square miles of some six thousand square overgrown with a sedge (Scirpus joined above Basra to was covered with bulrushes in the direction of divided into the communis) was the the Tigris and the Tigris and Euphrates marshes, south of the Euphratesand also some permanent Gharraf, a river that leaves of the Tigris and north flows southwest in brachyceras). This area in the autumn and direction of Nasiriya.. and was later overgrown with the Shatt al A reed had not come forth, A tree had not been made-made, A city had not been made, All the lands were seas, Then Eridu was made. distant sounds of singing and drumming.. all expressions come from the earth what gets scribbled upon the surface reapings, sewings, the various orders there are no laws in poetry only self-discovery which is a vision of earth I am a simple Madan. There are no more birds here. The bitumen of my canoo is cracked. There is water far to the east.. Heartache pain abounds with ice or fire all around. the scorpion the delta-delta of Gilgamesh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:05:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Okay, so I'm saying to myself, I can't believe you're writing to that list again, why can't you control yourself, but here I go again. First of all, I greatly admire Jim Behrle's utopian spirit. But, mostly I wanted to write about Kim Addonizio because I actually know the woman. I haven't talked to her in like 20 years, even though, as far as I know, she still lives in the Bay Area, but she and I studied together at SF State in the early 80s. San Francisco in the early 80s was a hotbed of the intellectual/theoretical rigor that Patrick Durgin praised the Buffalo Poetics program for. The classes that Kim and I shared at SF State were with Kathleen Fraser, so we were reading Carla Harryman, Mei-mei Bersenbrugge, Lorine Niedecker, and we were learning about Lacan and the French Feminists. While the other tenured poets at State at that time were not people I would subject myself to, Barrett Watten taught a course there at that time, as did Michael Palmer. And this was before MFA programs ruled poetry. The poetry community was flooded with panels and talks and serious discussions. There was a sink or get rigorous feeling to the whole scene. The pressures to be experimental and intellectual were enormous. In a way, the fact that Addonizio, one of the founding editors of Five Fingers Review, could come out of that scene and continue to write the sort of poetry she's writing, she's heroic, in a way. It's not that she doesn't know better, she's made a conscious decision to go in this direction--and the direction that she's going in, I don't think is born out of the workshop poem, but from 70s feminist poetry. It was the same sort of stuff I was trying to write in my early 20s, and part of me feels resentful that I stopped because that part knows I'd probably be more successful than I am now. At 9:41 AM -0700 9/12/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: >on 9/12/02 7:24 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@umn.edu wrote [via b/c]: > > > well i admire your impulse toward rigor, kasey, but i'm not sure >i'd want to > > say that a final killer punch-line is a *requirement* for this >type of poem; > > it's a *characteristic*, and the ka poem fails to deliver in that >area, as one > > might have hoped for given the lameness of the foregoing. that >is, i guess my > > approach is one of decription rather than prescription; i'm content to stay > > with that mode, while you seem to prefer using the former as a >tool to arrive > > at the latter...? Yes, we all think essentializing is bad, but, honestly, how many of us can honestly say we never essentialize ourselves? I've been in feminist group therapy for years, yet I'm still ramming my head against internalize female cliches that are very destructive. I think most people most of the time are essentializing wildly. Setting that aside, when it became clear to me that writing 70s feminist poetry was no longer valid for me, I didn't then become an experimental poet--I turned to prose mainly because of the issue of content--I was then and I still am committed to in-your-face female content. This sort of content is obviously important to Addonizio, so I imagine a young woman in 80s San Francisco faced with some serious decisions about what to do with her poetry. Given the disregard of female content that still rages in the experimental poetry world, I can appreciate Addonizio's decision to go the narrative poetry route. One of the most painful aspects I've experienced in teaching young female poetry students is that many of them are aching to have more content in their poetry, but content is seen as tainted, and so they write these obscure poems that they're yearning for people to understand, poems that are unnecessarily oblique because they've been taught that transparency is the great evil. Anytime I've helped one of them find a way to incorporate more female content--without throwing away interesting formal impulses, I've felt a kind of thrill of victory. Kasey, when I read your poem, the parody of male cliches, I see that it turns on the absolute ludicrosity of a man reading Anais Nin. Whether or not this was a conscious decision on your part, it's plain that you expect your "readers" to find the very mention of Nin as hilarious. It's not that I don't sympathize with this, but you'll agree the poem would be radically changed if he were reading Henry Miller. Again, it seems to me, that female content is a cause for radical derision. Best, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:50:47 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dodie---I for one glad you can't (or won't) control yourself in this....chris Dodie Bellamy wrote: > Okay, so I'm saying to myself, I can't believe you're writing to that > list again, why can't you control yourself, but here I go again. > First of all, I greatly admire Jim Behrle's utopian spirit. But, > mostly I wanted to write about Kim Addonizio because I actually know > the woman. I haven't talked to her in like 20 years, even though, as > far as I know, she still lives in the Bay Area, but she and I studied > together at SF State in the early 80s. San Francisco in the early > 80s was a hotbed of the intellectual/theoretical rigor that Patrick > Durgin praised the Buffalo Poetics program for. The classes that Kim > and I shared at SF State were with Kathleen Fraser, so we were > reading Carla Harryman, Mei-mei Bersenbrugge, Lorine Niedecker, and > we were learning about Lacan and the French Feminists. While the > other tenured poets at State at that time were not people I would > subject myself to, Barrett Watten taught a course there at that time, > as did Michael Palmer. And this was before MFA programs ruled > poetry. The poetry community was flooded with panels and talks and > serious discussions. There was a sink or get rigorous feeling to the > whole scene. The pressures to be experimental and intellectual were > enormous. In a way, the fact that Addonizio, one of the founding > editors of Five Fingers Review, could come out of that scene and > continue to write the sort of poetry she's writing, she's heroic, in > a way. It's not that she doesn't know better, she's made a conscious > decision to go in this direction--and the direction that she's going > in, I don't think is born out of the workshop poem, but from 70s > feminist poetry. It was the same sort of stuff I was trying to write > in my early 20s, and part of me feels resentful that I stopped > because that part knows I'd probably be more successful than I am now. > > At 9:41 AM -0700 9/12/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: > >on 9/12/02 7:24 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@umn.edu wrote [via b/c]: > > > > > well i admire your impulse toward rigor, kasey, but i'm not sure > >i'd want to > > > say that a final killer punch-line is a *requirement* for this > >type of poem; > > > it's a *characteristic*, and the ka poem fails to deliver in that > >area, as one > > > might have hoped for given the lameness of the foregoing. that > >is, i guess my > > > approach is one of decription rather than prescription; i'm content to stay > > > with that mode, while you seem to prefer using the former as a > >tool to arrive > > > at the latter...? > > Yes, we all think essentializing is bad, but, honestly, how many of > us can honestly say we never essentialize ourselves? I've been in > feminist group therapy for years, yet I'm still ramming my head > against internalize female cliches that are very destructive. I > think most people most of the time are essentializing wildly. > Setting that aside, when it became clear to me that writing 70s > feminist poetry was no longer valid for me, I didn't then become an > experimental poet--I turned to prose mainly because of the issue of > content--I was then and I still am committed to in-your-face female > content. This sort of content is obviously important to Addonizio, > so I imagine a young woman in 80s San Francisco faced with some > serious decisions about what to do with her poetry. Given the > disregard of female content that still rages in the experimental > poetry world, I can appreciate Addonizio's decision to go the > narrative poetry route. > > One of the most painful aspects I've experienced in teaching young > female poetry students is that many of them are aching to have more > content in their poetry, but content is seen as tainted, and so they > write these obscure poems that they're yearning for people to > understand, poems that are unnecessarily oblique because they've been > taught that transparency is the great evil. Anytime I've helped one > of them find a way to incorporate more female content--without > throwing away interesting formal impulses, I've felt a kind of thrill > of victory. > > Kasey, when I read your poem, the parody of male cliches, I see that > it turns on the absolute ludicrosity of a man reading Anais Nin. > Whether or not this was a conscious decision on your part, it's plain > that you expect your "readers" to find the very mention of Nin as > hilarious. It's not that I don't sympathize with this, but you'll > agree the poem would be radically changed if he were reading Henry > Miller. Again, it seems to me, that female content is a cause for > radical derision. > > Best, > Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:58:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Ioway etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dodie, in her very useful recent post, wrote this: "San Francisco in = the early 80s was a hotbed of the intellectual/theoretical rigor that = Patrick Durgin praised the Buffalo Poetics program for." I don't remember praising Buffalo for intellectual rigor. If I did, I = was stating a preference between the two models, but I have to imagine = this preference anyhow having never attended a workshop (as I said, my = involvement has always been "tangential" at best). I merely wanted to = offer a distinction. And the distinction was intended primarily to do = something like what Dodie did - to partially dispel the myths and = stereotypes ascribed to Iowa, Buffalo, etc. The generalities I offer = are meant to exceed any possible application. I should say that I do feel fortunate to be at Buffalo and "in the = program," especially now. But to say that the kind of questions I = propose central to "poetics" is the kind most often pursued here would = be to ... well, lie. Those questions are, when brought up, able to = flourish into full-blown problems here, and that's the best you could do = in gradskool, ain't it? =20 ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:19:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: The Poetics of Author Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George "Canadian Ways" Bowering : what anthillology is this, that drops the poet once he's been dead long enough? I suppose it has some subtitle like "contemporary poets" for justification. Otherwise, we'd be subjected yet again to Shakespeare's sonnets. DB -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:21 AM Subject: Re: The Poetics of Author Photos >> >> >>of course he and Robert Duncan have been dropped out >>of the current edition ostensibly due to time lapsed >>since their deaths though Richard Hugo, James Wright, >>and David Ignatow remain represented. > >Is that a joke? As a person living outside the US, I sometimes wonder >what people can be thinking down there. >-- >George Bowering >On Base Pct. is .395 >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:27:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only in a hawg-callin' contest, you greedy beast! It aint enuff fer you to rule from sea ter shinin' sea? --Outraged in Sonoma County. -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets >>I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's >>post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated >>with various poets or being characterized as having a >>sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not >>attend school in Iowa. > >Neither did I. Can I get called an Iowa poet? >-- >George Bowering >Chile colorado, eh? >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:52:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets In-Reply-To: <016301c25aee$b2ab9220$8d96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Only in a hawg-callin' contest, you greedy beast! It aint enuff fer you to >rule from sea ter shinin' sea? --Outraged in Sonoma County. >-----Original Message----- >From: George Bowering >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:33 PM >Subject: Re: BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 - Iowa Poets Okay, my real ambition is to get into an anthology of poets of the Sonoma and nearby valleys. gb > >>>I was surprised to see my name in Catherine Daly's >>>post on Iowa poets. I don't mind being associated >>>with various poets or being characterized as having a >>>sense of humor, but just for the record, I did not >>>attend school in Iowa. >> >>Neither did I. Can I get called an Iowa poet? > >-- > >George Bowering > >Chile colorado, eh? > >Fax 604-266-9000 > > -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 04:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Saturday: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM Comments: To: Maria Damon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria-- I keep trying to think of how to answer your post about the wild poet tribes but I cannot which is primarily due to the deprogramming procedures instituted when I was introduced back into some form of mainstream society in the early 90's. Sometimes when the authorities have not noticed my lack of ingesting the medication for a few days I am almost able to remember the entire tale. The problem is that I cannot tell which pill is which and one of them is wellbutrin which if not taken makes me forget everything that I would remember if I stopped taking the rest of them. I think they already figured on me coming up with the brilliant idea of not taking meds so all of the pills are the same color. Kim Addonizzio wrote a blurb for one of our books recently for a poet who is not a graduate of Iowa. It was not Kit Robinson even tho he did write the seemingly esoteric answers I seek are only available with reference to the library of sleep then the questions arrive My favorite rejection is when I mention poems that are better by the author who has chosen to send us poop. Then I invite the author to come to Ohio & read for us. Two authors read last year under this form of rejection. I think they both understood that I was rejecting their poems and not them personally, even if they were from Iowa, a place where things are stereotypically characterized as being taken that way. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 04:37:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: poetics poem for collaboration...add to this, please! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shadow swollen, like wool in both ears to part the hearing from the read ink, ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:06:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: poetics poem for collaboration...add to this, please! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shadow swollen, like wool in both ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: 13 September 2002 12:37 Subject: poetics poem for collaboration...add to this, please! | | | | ===== | | http://www.lewislacook.com/ | http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html | | | __________________________________________________ | Do you Yahoo!? | Yahoo! News - Today's headlines | http://news.yahoo.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 05:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: list state (it's not iowa, is it?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii wouldn't it be nice if, instead of so much haze hanging over the list referencing the hazy state of the list (which is rather artsy fartsy, when you think of it), we actually worked toward understanding one another? heh...i'm amused to see kim addonzio so discussed==in school i had a graduate workshop wherein the text was co-written by addonzio...i thought most of it was a crock of shit (she actually discusses SURREALISM in the book, and offers methods for producing SURREAL poems...and me, i've never been able to tell the difference between surrealism and the mundane quotidian...) of course, this was at kent state...not known for its embrace of innovative poetics (though i hear creeley was there for a few days after i left) bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: the state of this list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Apologies. Frustration has gotten the better of me this week. My angry attempts to make some of the conversations here more civil have been extremely counterproductive, which I regret. My first post yesterday was heated, but I stand by what's written: >It's possible that some people here are just fucking jerks who care >little >about other peoples' poems, or poetry, or discussing poetry. My line does not call anyone on this list anything. It may be an enraging line to some, but no one here is implicated and it's a statement of possibilty, an unlikely one I hope. Occasionally posts leave me scratching my head, or worse, with flames coming out of my ears. I'm not sure why some post what they do. I know these lines were haymakers, I knew what I was doing when I wrote it, I remain behind them. Still, I ought to practice what I preach. If I hurt Aaron Belz or John Gallaher with this line, or other lines in my e-mail, I'm very sorry. They weren't meant for them: I enjoy them and their posts. It is unfair to gang-tackle poets of any stripe who are or are not on this list simply for being a different kind of poet. That should have been more clearly stated. I did enjoy Kasey, Maria, Mike Magee, Patrick Durgin, Mark DuCharme, Murat, Bill Austin and others in their productive and well-thought-out takes on Addonizio's work. "What the Dead Fear" by Kim Addonizio On winter nights, the dead see their photographs slipped from the windows of wallets, their letters stuffed in a box with the clothes for Goodwill. No one remembers their jokes, their nervous habits, their dread of enclosed places. In these nightmares, the dead feel the soft nub of the eraser lightening their bones. They wake up in a panic, go for a glass of milk and see the moon, the fresh snow, the stripped trees. Maybe they fix a turkey sandwich, or watch the patterns on the T.V. It's all a dream anyway. In a few months they'll turn the clocks ahead, and when they sleep they'll know the living are grieving for them, unbearably lonely and indifferent to beauty. On these nights the dead feel better. They rise in the morning, refreshed, and when the cut flowers are laid before their names they smile like shy brides. Thank you, thank you, they say. You shouldn't have, they say, but very softly, so it sounds like the wind, like nothing human. from www.alsopreview.com This is neither the greatest poem nor the worst. It is just a poem, that thing we do that brings us together here. It is, under different circumstances, placements and sounds, the kinds of poems we all here write. When poets here carve Addonizio's work up, it feels like I could be next, or any of you could be. That upsets me, I profoundly dislike it when I sense bullying. Ought we have keen discussions of poetics? Yes, we ought. But can work a little harder, say something more interesting and less dismissive, less pugnacious? I believe that we here can. This group ought be held to high standards, there are incredibly thoughtful and smart people here, and much to be learned. There are also people who post who infuriate me. Should I call them names? No. Should I grow up? Yes, I should. When poets are attacked here, I sometimes feel attacked. Mine is an open aesthetic, I believe strongly to be open-hearted to the work of a great many, very different poets. That is not shared with everyone on this list. There are some on this list I admire as poets but not as people, and the opposite. I ought not to let that turn me into the kind of poster I most despise, and that's what sometimes happens. I ought to be more thoughtful in making my points, I would urge others to do the same. There are poets here who ought to grow up, too. I will continue to challenge them. Grumpiness and narrowmindedness are relentless foes of innovative poetry in my opinion. Also, many conversations here do add to our lives as poets, which I resolve to more affably help along. --Jim Behrle Apologies. Frustration has gotten the better of me this week. My angry attempts to make some of the conversations here more civil have been extremely counterproductive, which I regret. My first post yesterday was heated, but I stand by what's written: >It's possible that some people here are just fucking jerks who care >little >about other peoples' poems, or poetry, or discussing poetry. My line does not call anyone on this list anything. It may be an enraging line to some, but no one here is implicated and it's a statement of possibilty, an unlikely one I hope. Occasionally posts leave me scratching my head, or worse, with flames coming out of my ears. I'm not sure why some post what they do. I know these lines were haymakers, I knew what I was doing when I wrote it, I remain behind them. Still, I ought to practice what I preach. If I hurt Aaron Belz or John Gallaher with this line, or other lines in my e-mail, I'm very sorry. They weren't meant for them: I enjoy them and their posts. It is unfair to gang-tackle poets of any stripe who are or are not on this list simply for being a different kind of poet. That should have been more clearly stated. I did enjoy Kasey, Maria, Mike Magee, Patrick Durgin, Mark DuCharme, Murat, Bill Austin and others in their productive and well-thought-out takes on Addonizio's work. "What the Dead Fear" by Kim Addonizio On winter nights, the dead see their photographs slipped from the windows of wallets, their letters stuffed in a box with the clothes for Goodwill. No one remembers their jokes, their nervous habits, their dread of enclosed places. In these nightmares, the dead feel the soft nub of the eraser lightening their bones. They wake up in a panic, go for a glass of milk and see the moon, the fresh snow, the stripped trees. Maybe they fix a turkey sandwich, or watch the patterns on the T.V. It's all a dream anyway. In a few months they'll turn the clocks ahead, and when they sleep they'll know the living are grieving for them, unbearably lonely and indifferent to beauty. On these nights the dead feel better. They rise in the morning, refreshed, and when the cut flowers are laid before their names they smile like shy brides. Thank you, thank you, they say. You shouldn't have, they say, but very softly, so it sounds like the wind, like nothing human. from www.alsopreview.com This is neither the greatest poem nor the worst. It is just a poem, that thing we do that brings us together here. It is, under different circumstances, placements and sounds, the kinds of poems we all here write. When poets here carve Addonizio's work up, it feels like I could be next, or any of you could be. That upsets me, I profoundly dislike it when I sense bullying. Ought we have keen discussions of poetics? Yes, we ought. But can work a little harder, say something more interesting and less dismissive, less pugnacious? I believe that we here can. This group ought be held to high standards, there are incredibly thoughtful and smart people here, and much to be learned. There are also people who post who infuriate me. Should I call them names? No. Should I grow up? Yes, I should. When poets are attacked here, I sometimes feel attacked. Mine is an open aesthetic, I believe strongly to be open-hearted to the work of a great many, very different poets. That is not shared with everyone on this list. There are some on this list I admire as poets but not as people, and the opposite. I ought not to let that turn me into the kind of poster I most despise, and that's what sometimes happens. I ought to be more thoughtful in making my points, I would urge others to do the same. There are poets here who ought to grow up, too. I will continue to challenge them. Grumpiness and narrowmindedness are relentless foes of innovative poetry in my opinion. Also, many conversations here do add to our lives as poets, which I resolve to more affably help along. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" dodie, thanks for this long and thoughtful post. it occurred to me late in my own post of y'day that, while i *don't* admire the poem by addonizio, i might have been participating in a misogynist discussion, or at least that misogyny was an element in the discussion, however much merit our poetic insights might have had (i too admire jim's utopian spirit, but can't pass up the opportunity to analyze a poem, even mean-spiritedly) --the scene you describe below helps put things in context. but there are breathtakingly admirable "workshop" poets and poems (adrienne rich's work for example), and this ain't it. so what, one could say. everyone's probably written a few "bad poems," real clinkers, in whatever genre she or he works in --geez, i know i have. kim a may be a feminist, but the poem, unlike, say, those of sharon olds, does not crackle with transgressive energy, neither in language NOR in its narrative content. as you can see, these random thoughts are not organized into any sustained argument;;; just musings aloud about how to critique a lame poem w/o being unsisterly or misogynistic. i guess i don't see the argument here as being about "language" v "content" but about what makes a poem succeed or fail on its own terms. and what am i doing myself, drawn into this discussion, when i don't necessarily believe in goodness, badness, success or failure in poetry? i guess it's the critic in me --less invested in questions of quality, but unable to stay out of these types of conversations. and kasey, much as i chuckled over your "male" poem, it doesn't really count in terms of our discussion because it was *meant* to be laughably stereotypical. robert frost could easily have done instead; though again, he's "skillful" formally. how about phil levine? thanks all. At 10:05 PM -0700 9/12/02, Dodie Bellamy wrote: >Okay, so I'm saying to myself, I can't believe you're writing to that >list again, why can't you control yourself, but here I go again. >First of all, I greatly admire Jim Behrle's utopian spirit. But, >mostly I wanted to write about Kim Addonizio because I actually know >the woman. I haven't talked to her in like 20 years, even though, as >far as I know, she still lives in the Bay Area, but she and I studied >together at SF State in the early 80s. San Francisco in the early >80s was a hotbed of the intellectual/theoretical rigor that Patrick >Durgin praised the Buffalo Poetics program for. The classes that Kim >and I shared at SF State were with Kathleen Fraser, so we were >reading Carla Harryman, Mei-mei Bersenbrugge, Lorine Niedecker, and >we were learning about Lacan and the French Feminists. While the >other tenured poets at State at that time were not people I would >subject myself to, Barrett Watten taught a course there at that time, >as did Michael Palmer. And this was before MFA programs ruled >poetry. The poetry community was flooded with panels and talks and >serious discussions. There was a sink or get rigorous feeling to the >whole scene. The pressures to be experimental and intellectual were >enormous. In a way, the fact that Addonizio, one of the founding >editors of Five Fingers Review, could come out of that scene and >continue to write the sort of poetry she's writing, she's heroic, in >a way. It's not that she doesn't know better, she's made a conscious >decision to go in this direction--and the direction that she's going >in, I don't think is born out of the workshop poem, but from 70s >feminist poetry. It was the same sort of stuff I was trying to write >in my early 20s, and part of me feels resentful that I stopped >because that part knows I'd probably be more successful than I am now. > >At 9:41 AM -0700 9/12/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: >>on 9/12/02 7:24 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@umn.edu wrote [via b/c]: >> >>> well i admire your impulse toward rigor, kasey, but i'm not sure >>i'd want to >>> say that a final killer punch-line is a *requirement* for this >>type of poem; >>> it's a *characteristic*, and the ka poem fails to deliver in that >>area, as one >>> might have hoped for given the lameness of the foregoing. that >>is, i guess my >>> approach is one of decription rather than prescription; i'm content to stay >>> with that mode, while you seem to prefer using the former as a >>tool to arrive >>> at the latter...? > >Yes, we all think essentializing is bad, but, honestly, how many of >us can honestly say we never essentialize ourselves? I've been in >feminist group therapy for years, yet I'm still ramming my head >against internalize female cliches that are very destructive. I >think most people most of the time are essentializing wildly. >Setting that aside, when it became clear to me that writing 70s >feminist poetry was no longer valid for me, I didn't then become an >experimental poet--I turned to prose mainly because of the issue of >content--I was then and I still am committed to in-your-face female >content. This sort of content is obviously important to Addonizio, >so I imagine a young woman in 80s San Francisco faced with some >serious decisions about what to do with her poetry. Given the >disregard of female content that still rages in the experimental >poetry world, I can appreciate Addonizio's decision to go the >narrative poetry route. > >One of the most painful aspects I've experienced in teaching young >female poetry students is that many of them are aching to have more >content in their poetry, but content is seen as tainted, and so they >write these obscure poems that they're yearning for people to >understand, poems that are unnecessarily oblique because they've been >taught that transparency is the great evil. Anytime I've helped one >of them find a way to incorporate more female content--without >throwing away interesting formal impulses, I've felt a kind of thrill >of victory. > >Kasey, when I read your poem, the parody of male cliches, I see that >it turns on the absolute ludicrosity of a man reading Anais Nin. >Whether or not this was a conscious decision on your part, it's plain >that you expect your "readers" to find the very mention of Nin as >hilarious. It's not that I don't sympathize with this, but you'll >agree the poem would be radically changed if he were reading Henry >Miller. Again, it seems to me, that female content is a cause for >radical derision. > >Best, >Dodie -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: A Poem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here's a poem I just read for the first time recently. It's wonderful. And a wonderful opportunity to be positive. It's from a chapbook titled "Matters", by Mark Salerno. It's a follow up to his amazing, antic, _Method_, from The Figures (2002). -------------------------------------------- For Everyday Use What matters most there's your rumpus delicate simple wedge of winter light some sea greens are building contrast as the man in the orange suit directs traffic in lost doubloons gold slots this prison cell my lime tree bower wherein the prelude becomes the power O blimey the air is a memory of air or how else to say it she wore a teal cotton jersey she had small white hands and finally we could see the underside of leaves if only to stay the day as subject in the ongoing vocabulary of telling. --------------------------------------------- One of the things I admire about this poem is how well I find it aware of itself thinking as it goes. How, after the "lime tree bower" / "prelude" bit, we get "O blimey the air is a memory of air". I find this playful, antic, and fundamentally true to the totality of experience. I feel a little corner of the being of the world as revealed itself here. And, as such, we all join "the ongoing vocabulary of telling." True-ly. --JG ------------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: devineni@rattapallax.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Organization: Rattapallax Subject: rattapallax 8 launch reading In-Reply-To: <3D817CB8.991396D1@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone: I just wanted to announce the launch of Rattapallax 8 which features: Audio recordings by Sharon Olds, Sonia Sanchez, Breyten Breytenbach, Shashi Tharoor, Molly Peacock, Willie Perdomo & Bob Holman. We also have a special section on ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE POETRY which features poems by Edwin Torres, Anne Tardos, Juliana Spahr read by Raymond Kurzweil's Ramona program. In addition, NEW PERSIAN POETRY featuring Shadab Vadji, Manucher Atashi, M. A. Sepanlu, Mohammad-Reza Shafii-Kadkani, Ali Zarrin, Ahmad Shamlu, Omran Salahi, Katayoun Zandvakili, Mimi Khalvati, Parinaz Eleish, Mohammad Mokhtari, Esmail Khoi & Abbas Kiarostami. Also, popular Persian song lyrcis. Edited and songs performed by Haale. And poems by Rick Moody, Marilyn Hacker, Eamon Grennan, William Pitt Root, Deborah Warren, Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Jeet Thayil, Karen Swenson, Elaine Sexton, Kate Light & many others. Please join us for our launch reading on September 14, 2002 at 2 pm--Rattapallax 8 Launch Reading Mid-Manhattan Library, 455 Fifth Ave. at 40th St., NYC Additional info at http://www.rattapallax.com Thanks, Ram ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: The State of The List Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Right now seems to parallel the state of the world. Are we anxious, or what? Nick PIombino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:00:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/02 8:26:11 PM, vfrazer@ATTBI.COM writes: << I gather some people were upset by my last post, so I'll offer a qualified apology. >> The apology is good, but just so you don't feel like a complete shit--I've been where you've been, and I understand. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:24:06 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: Re: poetics poem for collaboration...add to this, please! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

Shadow swollen, like wool in both ears

to part the hearing from the read ink,

the self-appointed shepherd gasped

not it is on my lips:



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========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:35:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/02 8:45:58 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Bill. What do you think of C Bernstein's essays? >> Richard, I admire Bernstein's work, front to back, with the usual bumps in the road. His essays, especially the early ones in Content's Dream, intrigued me right off the ole wood, er, bat. My own immersion in Continental theory and its American perversions made me the perfect audience, I suppose. However, in my last book, 5 UNDERWORLD 6, I included a short critique of Bernstein's "Thought's Measure." His essay suffers from imprecision which is most certainly corrected elsewhere in Bernstein's writings, as I point out at the close of my own piece. I guess my point is that critique, even a bit of negativity, doesn't necessarily preclude admiration. As for Bernstein on the syrupy, it's certainly not a new idea. Eliot did the police in different voices, and some find moments in The Waste Land a tad drippy. I looked back through my own work and found one or too borderline moments. I do think it's possible to add a dash of sentiment without giving your audience cavities. It's not easy to do, and if I may refer to tsetse once more, such moments really must be earned by the rest of the poem. Personally, I'm a fan of the polyvocal. Old notions of unity in form/content/tone are, well, old. And Bernstein's poetry is not free of sentiment. In fact, there is so much hangover from the New York School in so much of the work by the original and major language poets that one should not be surprised to find a bit of sweetums there. I don't think it overwhelms the work when it shows up. Generally, Bernstein seems pretty crafty re: how and where to place it. He's good. Not one major poet that I can think of, now or then, completely eliminated sentiment from the work nor, I suspect, did s/he intend to so limit the expression of human experience. as just one example, cummings, who was certainly a technical wizard, is also quite sentimental. I lose interest only when the syrup overwhelms the pancake. As for abstraction, that's probably a matter of taste whether it's Williams, or Pound, or Pollock, so I really can't argue with you there. For me, the vague and the imprecise can be too different things. Pollock's drip paintings are vague, I suppose, but never imprecise. Of course I may be in violation of dictionary definitions here, so mea culpa. Anyway, no artist is without flaws; that's a given. Sorry if I didn't get to all of your points, but I've a ton of work waiting for me today, like most days. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:29:10 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Asheville Festival/Reading reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit READING/FESTIVAL REMINDER Under the Influence: Celebrating the Legacy of Black Mountain College http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/ READINGS more details: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/poetry.html 1. Saturday 21 September, 6-8PM, Malaprop's, Asheville, NC, free Not Your Average Poetry Reading #1: Lee Ann Brown (with Beth Brown Al-Rawi), Patrick Herron and John Landry 2. Sunday 22 September 1-3PM, Black Mountain Center for the Arts Gallery, Black Mountain, NC, $35 Benefit Champagne Brunch for BMCMAC: Michael Boughn, Lee Ann Brown, Beth Brown Al-Rawi, Patrick Herron, Lisa Jarnot, and John Landry Reservations are required. RSVP to Jane Anne Tager at 828-658-3576 (no later than Saturday, 9/21). 3. Sunday 22 September 3:15-5PM, Camp Rockmont Dining Hall, Black Mountain, NC, free with brunch/$10 Not Your Average Poetry Reading #2: Michael Boughn and Lisa Jarnot THE FESTIVAL Under the Influence: Celebrating the Legacy of Black Mountain College A collaborative festival on the 50th anniversary of John Cage's multi-media "Theatre Piece No. 1". Wednesday 18 September - Sunday 22 September Schedule: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/schedule.html The Festival in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/travel/WDASHE.html The Under the Influence Festival from 18-22 September will celebrate the artistic legacy of the Black Mountain College, which closed its doors in 1956. The weekend of the festival marks the 50th anniversary of the first multimedia "happening", called Theatre Piece No. 1, which was arranged by composer John Cage and performed at Black Mountain College. Festival programming will consist of performances, installations, workshops, poetry readings, film screenings, and roundtables showcasing contemporary artists, performers, and theorists whose ideas and work bear the distinctive influence of Black Mountain College. Festival participants and contributors include musicians Pauline Oliveros, Tony Conrad, Mark Hosler, and John Cobb, poets Patrick Herron, Michael Boughn and Lee Ann Brown, installation artists Yoko Ono and Jack Dangers, educators Sue Riley and Greg Ulmer, filmmaker Craig Baldwin, dancer Ray Eliot Schwartz and many others. The festival will occur September 18-22, 2002 at various venues in Asheville, Black Mountain and Cullowhee, NC with related events throughout the month. For detailed and up to the minute information, see the festival website at http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/. About Black Mountain College "For a short time in the middle of the twentieth century a small town in North Carolina became a hub of American cultural production. The town was Black Mountain and the reason was Black Mountain College. Founded in 1933, the school was a reaction to the more traditional schools of the time. At its core was the assumption that a strong liberal and fine arts education must happen simultaneously inside and outside the classroom. Combining communal living with an informal class structure, Black Mountain created an environment conducive to the interdisciplinary work that was to revolutionize the arts and sciences of its time." -- from PBS's "American Masters" Black Mountain College numbers among its former students and teachers such luminaries as Charles Olson, Josef and Anni Albers, Walter Gropius, Jacob Lawrence, Buckminster Fuller, Willem de Kooning, Robert Motherwell, John Cage, Robert Creeley, Alfred Kazin, Merce Cunningham, Paul Goodman, Cy Twombly, Jonathan Williams, Robert Rauschenberg, John Wieners and Lou Harrison. The college was started in the 1930s by Jack Rice and Theodore Dreier in association with refugees from the Bauhaus School after the Bauhaus dissolved under pressure from by the Nazis that same year. More Information More about the Under the Influence festival: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/about.html The press release: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/release.html More about Black Mountain College: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/index.html Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Works: http://proximate.org/works.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Bill. I had a sense from some of your poems online that you knew more than a little about urban reality. Jim, thanks for your post. I think it helped clear the air and clarifed concersn that a number of people share. Richard, I agree. It's sad that things have become the way they are. Years ago, a clever remark would end a dispute. Nowadays, unfortunately, the same remark might send a stranger into the pedestrian counterpart of road rage. Vernon , ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: Re: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion > In a message dated 9/12/02 8:26:11 PM, vfrazer@ATTBI.COM writes: > > << I gather some people were upset by my last post, so I'll offer a qualified > apology. > > >> > > The apology is good, but just so you don't feel like a complete shit--I've > been where you've been, and I understand. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:41:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I would like to further discuss one of the things I posted yesterday. Why is divisiveness important to innovative poetry? There have been many posts dedicated to bashing Language Poetry, which turns 25 this year. Is it crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of hostilities? Why isn't "Oh, you know, they do they're thing and I do my thing" an OK response? Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into? Just subsequent generations of movements that have already come? I would call for more eclecticism and less cliquishness. We applaud well-rounded readers in almost every other genre, why should poetry be so very different? Good poetry is good poetry. And even if it isn't good poetry, shouldn't something be said for giving people's work a chance instead of dismissing it immediately without a read? Ought I be able to read Laure-Anne Bosselaar, Sparrow, Jim Brodey, Richard Hell, Donald Hall, Lyn Hejinian and Lucie Brock-Broido in the same night without there being a sense that something is wrong with me? I own ABBA and Clash records, they get along OK. At what point do our aesthetics make us ascetic readers? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:26:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: The State of The List MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT no, not anxious! In our strangely inverted linguistic world nobaody is ever anxious or depressed or under stress. just the thought of how we let words rule our lives, makes me sick, makes me anxious, maybe I feel a poem coming on! tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Piombino" To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: The State of The List > Right now seems to parallel the state of the world. > > Are we anxious, or what? > > > Nick PIombino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:11:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Ioway or the Highway In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 8:21 AM -0500 9/13/02, Maria Damon wrote: >but there are breathtakingly admirable >"workshop" poets and poems (adrienne rich's work for example), and >this ain't it. so what, one could say. everyone's probably written >a few "bad poems," real clinkers, in whatever genre she or he works >in --geez, i know i have. kim a may be a feminist, but the poem, >unlike, say, those of sharon olds, does not crackle with >transgressive energy, neither in language NOR in its narrative >content. as you can see, these random thoughts are not organized >into any sustained argument;;; just musings aloud about how to >critique a lame poem w/o being unsisterly or misogynistic. i guess i >don't see the argument here as being about "language" v "content" but >about what makes a poem succeed or fail on its own terms. and what >am i doing myself, drawn into this discussion, when i don't >necessarily believe in goodness, badness, success or failure in >poetry? i guess it's the critic in me --less invested in questions of >quality, but unable to stay out of these types of conversations. Maria, I have no problems with your discussion of KA's poem. I was just wanting to talk about it in terms of origin/context rather than quality. I recently wrote a piece in which my protagonist is a failed academic poet (and a miserable adjunct). Here's one of her poems: After Vermeer's Milkmaid by Carla Moran Hair hidden beneath her linen headdress, breasts bound, the sturdy young woman holds the pitcher in both hands, her head tilted downward prayerlike, her focus singular, milkward. Light floods in through the many-paned window, mysterious and precise, glazing the room with presence. Last night I dreamt I was pregnant, my insides luminescent with new life. Six months--too late for an abortion, so I held my tumescent belly with both hands, warmed to my fate, to the task of loving this young star throbbing within my womb. The milkmaid pours her milk with such determination. It is her duty. Her mind, her soul flows in its whiteness, warm, fresh, musty-sweet as baby's breath. In the course of the piece, as she gets angrier at her adjunct status and aroused by a student (in a very repressed manner) she continues working on this poem, and it gets very perverse and sick and dirty. I had so much fun doing it. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:12:59 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: the list of this state MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Behrle wrote: "There's no pleasing some on this list, who don't want to be pleased, who cannot enjoy the success of others, who remain here only to jerk-off. Allen Bramhall's recent cut-up mocking my BAP 2002 e-mail was a particular low-point. Thanks very much for that." Jim, you misread Bob Grumman's post of a month or so ago (who was reacting to the specific thing posted, not Kim's body of work), you misread Vernon Frazer's recent post (which was not asking for a fist fight), and you decided that all a cut up could be is a mocking of you, a small and rigid reading if ever. sorry, but you are at least three steps behind but pax on that, I don't like squabbles. scolding listservs is endlessly unrewarding, so may I suggest that you content yourself posting what zest you can and let the rocks roll. your use of the term 'jerk off' just accedes to the drama of this is stage (just as did the scintillatingly snotty remarks I elided from this email). that term is either applicable to everyone who posts or no one, and frankly, who cares anyway. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Myung Mi Kim @ EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The new Myung Mi Kim author page is up at the Electronic Poetry Center. = As always, the Poetics List people get a short preview as the link to = the page hasn't been posted yet. Take a look: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/kim ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:28:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: IA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Patrick, thanks for this very scholarly post, which I found fascinating. You had mentioned you wanted someone to post "A Few Don'ts" (which these days is available as part of an essay titled "A Retrospect" at the beginning of _Literary Essays of Ezra Pound_, published by New Directions). I was hoping someone else would, cause I didn't feel like doin' that much typing (and in fact, the entire "A Retrospect" would be much too long to post here). But then I thought, why not try Google, & lo & behold I found it (ironically, on an interesting poetry site I already had bookmarked)-- http://www.poetspath.com/transmissions/messages/pound.html What's on this site is ~excerpts~ from "A Retrospect" (this text itself I think is something of a pastiche of early poetics essays). It is highly condensed, and it's not clear unless you compare it with the printed text, WHERE the cuts are. Nevertheless, many of Pound's core points, and many of his famous pronouncements, remain intact. I hope this is useful. Best, Mark >From: "Patrick F. Durgin" >Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: IA >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:14:21 -0500 > >Mark et al - > >Let me try to clarify my clarification. I can't find the Pound I'm >thinking of, but I like what you brought in - that's part of it. "hard >light" and "clear edges" is another. But the "image" for Pound changes >with respect to the Vortex and later the Ideogram and can't usefully, for >us, I think, be divorced from the context of that evolution. > >My categories: "self-evident" and "self-conscious." I identify >prototypical workshop methods with the former and prototypical "poetics" >methods with the latter. Both methods presume a loose sense of reflection. > In poetry writing workshop one reflects on the objet d'art before them in >order to craft a better one, one that is as "good" as it can be, one that >"works for me." But one is also the "author" of said object, if not >necessarily (though frequently) the subject of it as well. In this >situation, one relies on critical values, one's own (i.e., "finding one's >voice"), but always by reference to two things which must articulate and >maintain those values, the poem in question (aka, "said object") and the >"master" (aka, workshop leader). My contention is that the master's task, >identifying and maintaining these values is sometimes imposing (too much in >reference to their own arbitrary values) and sometimes simply impossible >(how do you maintain critical values in a workshop situation when those >values are yet to be articulated?). > >I wound up seated on a train from NYC this spring next to a poetry workshop >student who was describing her experience in her program. She went on and >on regarding the techniques each instructor used to maintain critical >values and thus imbue them. I finally asked whether or not the instructors >ever required the students to articulate what these values are (i.e., what >makes "good" instead of "bad" in any given instance). She didn't >understand my question either. Turns out we'd both just seen the Richter >show at the MOMA, so I thought I'd ask her what she thought was so "good" >about it. She was utterly unable to fathom the question and its >presumption that a set of critical values could be articulated even for the >sake of argument (i.e., not for the sake of actually composing a work). >Ultimately, all she could admit was that the paintings existed, and their >existence was self-evident. > >It seems to me the space (generic, I suppose) opened up by the notion of >"poetics" confronts the same questions but in the sense that it goes beyond >the work as an object and considers the processes of composition and >appreciation. In that sense, it is self-reflective (those considerations >themselves being processural, in flux). Now, what I didn't yet address is >the reliance on one's own critical values in either a workshop situation of >one in which some "poetics" model is assumed. The authorial process comes >into question with respect to creative (or first) causes - but if we are >impatient with the notion of creation ex nihilo, we adopt a Deleuzian model >of the passage of utterances, deflecting intentions, disputing motives in >principle. Poetics privileges the disputation of such principles - >workshops may never question them, since they are already the workshop's >raison d'etre. To the degree that an author identifies with their motives, >they become culpable for the work done on behalf of those motives - this is >the level of critique I association with workshops. > >Culled this from an unrelated project - and posting here (viz. Poundian >self-evidence) because I can't find my copy of "A Few Don'ts" and hope >someone can and will post here. I think the IA WW was established in 1926? > >Pound came to London in 1909, aged twenty-four, joining up again with Hilda >Doolittle (H.D.) upon her arrival in 1911, aged twenty-six. That same >year, art critic of the Chicago Tribune Harriet Monroe founded the little >magazine Poetry, naming Pound the publication's "foreign correspondent" >(Monroe, Vol. 1 and Jones, 16). H.D., in the meantime, had established a >deep relationship with another poet in London, the British Richard >Aldington, and when the two brought their poems to Pound for criticism in >1912, it was as a function of the prankster that he announced to the poets >that they were "Imagistes," while it was as a function of the sponsor that >he insisted H.D. sign her work, "H.D. 'imagiste'," and that he wrote to >Monroe, the administrator, > > > >I've had luck again, and am sending you some modern stuff by an American. >I say modern, for it is in the laconic speech of the Imagistes, even if the >subject is classic ... This is the sort of American stuff that I can show >here and in Paris without its being ridiculed. (cited in Jones, 17) > > > >Pound admitted to having pulled the prank that was the naming of Imagisme, >and whose primary tenets as a practice are found in Pound's own particular >poetics as early as 1908, or, having "invented [it] to launch H.D. and >Aldington" (Pound cited in Jones, 19). Aldington's poems, selected and >published with the moniker "one of the 'Imagistes'," apeared in the >November 1912 issue of Poetry, with H.D.'s work turning up (as "H.D. >'imagiste'") in the January 1913 issue. Two months later, amidst a good >deal of speculation as to where these "Imagistes" had come from so >suddenly, and what they hoped to acheive (not to mention how they hoped to >acheive it), Poetry published F.S. Flint's "Imagisme" along with "A Few >Don'ts by an Imagiste," written by Pound himself. Asked to define >Imagisme, Pound does so negatively. By August of that year, Rebecca West's >article "Imagisme," published in the New Freewoman: An Individualist >Review from London, was feeding "the only clear account" of the movement >back to the British audience, introducing long quotes from "A Few Don'ts" >and "Imagisme" from the March issue of Poetry by declaring, "there has >arisen a little band who desire the poet to be as disciplined and efficient >at his job as the stevedore" (West, 86). But Pound, functioning as the >sponsor of Imagisme, was its most vehement critic, as evinced in an article >written for the Fortnightly Review in 1914 when he had already left >Imagisme behind for what he was calling Vorticism: > > > >The imagist's images have a variable significance like the signs a, b, and >x in algebra ... the author must use his image because he sees it or feels >it, not because he thinks he can use it to back up some creed or some >system of ethics or economics ... (cited in Jones, 21) > > > >In other words, the Imagiste runs the risk of utilizing the image out of >proportion to the aesthetic, what is seen and felt; "the author," proper, >will not succumb to the inordinate use of the image that Pound saw >interlopers as embracing. Not only, as with Aristotle's description of >analogy in the Poetics, may one "apply an alien term, and then deny of that >term one of its proper attributes," but one might ascribe additional >attributes that the true Imagiste would not (42). In a letter to the >USAmerican poet Amy Lowell, who was swiftly moving into the London Imagiste >scene, bent on out-sponsoring the movement by way of proposing an annual >anthology to be titled Some Imagist Poets, Pound's sense of losing his grip >on the implications of his prank is evident. It gets away from him by >virtue of the fact that his means of administration were being usurped by >Lowell's infamously deep pocketbook, supposedly offset by the democratizing >of the movement which, in reality, was merely the transference of a poetics >Pound had already put behind him. > > > >I should like the name "Imagisme" to retain some sort of meaning. It >stands, or I should like it to stand, for hard light, clear edges. I can >not trust any democratized committee to maintain that standard. Some will >be splay-footed and some sentimental. (cited in Jones, 22) > > > > > >------------ >http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jim Berhle wrote: "Is it crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of hostilities? ... Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into?" Hi Jim, This is related both to the questions above. I don't think it fully articulates an answer, but maybe adds something to the dialog. Anyway, these are excerpts from an essay I wrote on David Bromige's book _My Poetry_ (The Figures, 1980), which I read as a creative take on the various kinds of categorization a poet (or any artist) might be confronted with, as well as an equally creative examination of the site(s) of poetic production & reception. The passage here is kind of long (sorry) and more than a bit hyperbolic--but oh well, here you go: I think my favorite poem in this book is "What the Person Believes Is Part of the Poet's Make-up: 8 Soliloquants Each with an End in View Meet Atropos & Are Stuck with It"--dedicated to the book's publisher, Geoffrey Young, and featuring "istorian," "aspirant," "one more authentic voice," "anthony abstract," "objectist," "love-poet," "chainsaw Jack," and "I. Speakes." Here's the "multiplicity" of American Poetries, all speaking at once, each singing its own praises, and possibly attempting to cancel out the other (just like real life?): anthony abstract: I can't spare breath on happiness nor any of its relatives, description of this kind must be distraction-- one more authentic voice: Quail, shotguns, assorted hammering & sawing, a jackass, jaybirds, dogs, a goat-- aspirant: These hands need only clasp themselves for their aspirations to come true-- anthony abstract: For the god I am the shadow of, once, seared me in that flame, & sealed my lips. I hurt to talk. istorian: The story of his murderer, lacking means, enamored of his end-- It's not only searing satire, it's a fairly riveting playlet--though I can't think of many poets who wouldn't, by the end of it, feel at least somewhat indicted. Is Bromige bored here with the contemporary scene? Is he a callous, judgmental prick? I don't think he's either. Basically, he's having fun while closely examining what's on the plate at the Big Table of American poetry. Later in the book we get "My Career," perhaps the most "new-sentencey" piece in the collection (its rhythms are similar Rodefer's Four Lectures, Geoffrey Young's Rocks & Deals, Hejinian's My Life, and much of Silliman's work). It's yet another send-up, satirizing not only ambition ("Competition is the keynote, sometimes winningly justified as cutthroat"), but the terms by which poetry careers are made (or unmade): "He selects with care that which is appropriate; he rejects the superfluous; too much discontinuity threatens the identity of the person." Speaking of which, it also contains moments of brilliant superfluousness: "It was very dark inside the fish," the second paragraph enigmatically begins. (Though it might not be entirely superfluous if we think of Jonah = poet, whale = career. It's a stretch, but quite likely intended.) "My Plan," a pastiche send-up of poetics, contains famous quotes from the likes of Olson and Stein, as well as "anti-theory" statements (perhaps cribbed from Poetry Flash?) tipped in: "Would you look at the actual car or only at the specifications?" Reading this, I can't help but think that Bromige's "plan," at least with respect to the work in this collection, is the manifestation of a loose, creative scrutiny of the site(s) of poetry's creation and reception. My experience has been that, very generally, poets tend to think the satirist or parodist of poetry "hates" same, or is disgruntled and embittered. As though no serious poet could possibly have an irreverent, light-hearted take on the "business" of poetry-making. If there was, in the 80s, a resistance among more conservative types to writing that very closely examined language, there was even more a resistance--and there still is, frankly--to anything that closely examines (and does not take overly seriously) the site(s) of poetry's production and dissemination, as though the perpetrator were some aberrant acerbic crank. For me, My Poetry is not only one of the most brilliant and original books of poetry of the 80s, but--ironically?--the most affirmative book of, and on poetry, I can think of. And it has more to do with contemporary poetry--not only the self-awareness of my own generation, but the multiplicity of poetries being written in this culture in 2002--than any other book I can think of. In every sense, it precedes us. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:31:46 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Re: IA In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Incidentally, the whole essay is up at http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/m_r/pound/retrospect.htm On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Mark DuCharme wrote: > Patrick, thanks for this very scholarly post, which I found fascinating. > > You had mentioned you wanted someone to post "A Few Don'ts" (which these > days is available as part of an essay titled "A Retrospect" at the beginning > of _Literary Essays of Ezra Pound_, published by New Directions). I was > hoping someone else would, cause I didn't feel like doin' that much typing > (and in fact, the entire "A Retrospect" would be much too long to post > here). But then I thought, why not try Google, & lo & behold I found it > (ironically, on an interesting poetry site I already had bookmarked)-- > > http://www.poetspath.com/transmissions/messages/pound.html > > What's on this site is ~excerpts~ from "A Retrospect" (this text itself I > think is something of a pastiche of early poetics essays). It is highly > condensed, and it's not clear unless you compare it with the printed text, > WHERE the cuts are. Nevertheless, many of Pound's core points, and many of > his famous pronouncements, remain intact. I hope this is useful. > > Best, > > Mark > > > > > >From: "Patrick F. Durgin" > >Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: IA > >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:14:21 -0500 > > > >Mark et al - > > > >Let me try to clarify my clarification. I can't find the Pound I'm > >thinking of, but I like what you brought in - that's part of it. "hard > >light" and "clear edges" is another. But the "image" for Pound changes > >with respect to the Vortex and later the Ideogram and can't usefully, for > >us, I think, be divorced from the context of that evolution. > > > >My categories: "self-evident" and "self-conscious." I identify > >prototypical workshop methods with the former and prototypical "poetics" > >methods with the latter. Both methods presume a loose sense of reflection. > > In poetry writing workshop one reflects on the objet d'art before them in > >order to craft a better one, one that is as "good" as it can be, one that > >"works for me." But one is also the "author" of said object, if not > >necessarily (though frequently) the subject of it as well. In this > >situation, one relies on critical values, one's own (i.e., "finding one's > >voice"), but always by reference to two things which must articulate and > >maintain those values, the poem in question (aka, "said object") and the > >"master" (aka, workshop leader). My contention is that the master's task, > >identifying and maintaining these values is sometimes imposing (too much in > >reference to their own arbitrary values) and sometimes simply impossible > >(how do you maintain critical values in a workshop situation when those > >values are yet to be articulated?). > > > >I wound up seated on a train from NYC this spring next to a poetry workshop > >student who was describing her experience in her program. She went on and > >on regarding the techniques each instructor used to maintain critical > >values and thus imbue them. I finally asked whether or not the instructors > >ever required the students to articulate what these values are (i.e., what > >makes "good" instead of "bad" in any given instance). She didn't > >understand my question either. Turns out we'd both just seen the Richter > >show at the MOMA, so I thought I'd ask her what she thought was so "good" > >about it. She was utterly unable to fathom the question and its > >presumption that a set of critical values could be articulated even for the > >sake of argument (i.e., not for the sake of actually composing a work). > >Ultimately, all she could admit was that the paintings existed, and their > >existence was self-evident. > > > >It seems to me the space (generic, I suppose) opened up by the notion of > >"poetics" confronts the same questions but in the sense that it goes beyond > >the work as an object and considers the processes of composition and > >appreciation. In that sense, it is self-reflective (those considerations > >themselves being processural, in flux). Now, what I didn't yet address is > >the reliance on one's own critical values in either a workshop situation of > >one in which some "poetics" model is assumed. The authorial process comes > >into question with respect to creative (or first) causes - but if we are > >impatient with the notion of creation ex nihilo, we adopt a Deleuzian model > >of the passage of utterances, deflecting intentions, disputing motives in > >principle. Poetics privileges the disputation of such principles - > >workshops may never question them, since they are already the workshop's > >raison d'etre. To the degree that an author identifies with their motives, > >they become culpable for the work done on behalf of those motives - this is > >the level of critique I association with workshops. > > > >Culled this from an unrelated project - and posting here (viz. Poundian > >self-evidence) because I can't find my copy of "A Few Don'ts" and hope > >someone can and will post here. I think the IA WW was established in 1926? > > > >Pound came to London in 1909, aged twenty-four, joining up again with Hilda > >Doolittle (H.D.) upon her arrival in 1911, aged twenty-six. That same > >year, art critic of the Chicago Tribune Harriet Monroe founded the little > >magazine Poetry, naming Pound the publication's "foreign correspondent" > >(Monroe, Vol. 1 and Jones, 16). H.D., in the meantime, had established a > >deep relationship with another poet in London, the British Richard > >Aldington, and when the two brought their poems to Pound for criticism in > >1912, it was as a function of the prankster that he announced to the poets > >that they were "Imagistes," while it was as a function of the sponsor that > >he insisted H.D. sign her work, "H.D. 'imagiste'," and that he wrote to > >Monroe, the administrator, > > > > > > > >I've had luck again, and am sending you some modern stuff by an American. > >I say modern, for it is in the laconic speech of the Imagistes, even if the > >subject is classic ... This is the sort of American stuff that I can show > >here and in Paris without its being ridiculed. (cited in Jones, 17) > > > > > > > >Pound admitted to having pulled the prank that was the naming of Imagisme, > >and whose primary tenets as a practice are found in Pound's own particular > >poetics as early as 1908, or, having "invented [it] to launch H.D. and > >Aldington" (Pound cited in Jones, 19). Aldington's poems, selected and > >published with the moniker "one of the 'Imagistes'," apeared in the > >November 1912 issue of Poetry, with H.D.'s work turning up (as "H.D. > >'imagiste'") in the January 1913 issue. Two months later, amidst a good > >deal of speculation as to where these "Imagistes" had come from so > >suddenly, and what they hoped to acheive (not to mention how they hoped to > >acheive it), Poetry published F.S. Flint's "Imagisme" along with "A Few > >Don'ts by an Imagiste," written by Pound himself. Asked to define > >Imagisme, Pound does so negatively. By August of that year, Rebecca West's > >article "Imagisme," published in the New Freewoman: An Individualist > >Review from London, was feeding "the only clear account" of the movement > >back to the British audience, introducing long quotes from "A Few Don'ts" > >and "Imagisme" from the March issue of Poetry by declaring, "there has > >arisen a little band who desire the poet to be as disciplined and efficient > >at his job as the stevedore" (West, 86). But Pound, functioning as the > >sponsor of Imagisme, was its most vehement critic, as evinced in an article > >written for the Fortnightly Review in 1914 when he had already left > >Imagisme behind for what he was calling Vorticism: > > > > > > > >The imagist's images have a variable significance like the signs a, b, and > >x in algebra ... the author must use his image because he sees it or feels > >it, not because he thinks he can use it to back up some creed or some > >system of ethics or economics ... (cited in Jones, 21) > > > > > > > >In other words, the Imagiste runs the risk of utilizing the image out of > >proportion to the aesthetic, what is seen and felt; "the author," proper, > >will not succumb to the inordinate use of the image that Pound saw > >interlopers as embracing. Not only, as with Aristotle's description of > >analogy in the Poetics, may one "apply an alien term, and then deny of that > >term one of its proper attributes," but one might ascribe additional > >attributes that the true Imagiste would not (42). In a letter to the > >USAmerican poet Amy Lowell, who was swiftly moving into the London Imagiste > >scene, bent on out-sponsoring the movement by way of proposing an annual > >anthology to be titled Some Imagist Poets, Pound's sense of losing his grip > >on the implications of his prank is evident. It gets away from him by > >virtue of the fact that his means of administration were being usurped by > >Lowell's infamously deep pocketbook, supposedly offset by the democratizing > >of the movement which, in reality, was merely the transference of a poetics > >Pound had already put behind him. > > > > > > > >I should like the name "Imagisme" to retain some sort of meaning. It > >stands, or I should like it to stand, for hard light, clear edges. I can > >not trust any democratized committee to maintain that standard. Some will > >be splay-footed and some sentimental. (cited in Jones, 22) > > > > > > > > > > > >------------ > >http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > 'A sentence thinks loudly.' > > -—Gertrude Stein > > > > http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm > > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: WHITE BOX From: Poetics List Administration Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: Interview with Fabian Marcaccio at White Box MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; X-MAC-TYPE=54455854; X-MAC-CREATOR=4D4F5353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 13TH, 7:30 PM "On Painting: Fabian Marcaccio" Interviewed by Robert C. Morgan An evening discussion at White Box. The subject of the discussion will be the painterly and conceptual concerns that Fabian Marcaccio brings into his large-scale, paintings. Marcaccio, who is currently showing in an important exhibition at P.S. 1 and at Documenta XI and who will open a one-person show at Gorney Bravin & Lee Gallery in October, has for several years been making art intrinsically related to the discourse on painting. His work brings together elements of action, abstraction, representation, and environment space. A painter involved with cyber-technology, spatial recognizance, biomorphic imagery, embodied conflicts, pictorial solipsism, and architectural projections of the gesture, Marcaccio has opened a new threshold of meaning that reinvigorates painting with a mythic terminology for the present. The interview with be conducted with critic Robert C. Morgan whose critical writings appear in Art News, Tema Celeste, Art Press, Sculpture Magazine, and NY Arts. He is the recent editor of a collection of criticism on the video and film work of Bruce Nauman (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2002) and the author of The End of the Art World (Allworth Press, 1998). This lecture is free of charge and open to the public. White Box 525 West 26th Street New York, NY 10001 tel: 212-714-2347 www.whiteboxny.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: Bowery_Poetry_Club-feedback-10@lb.bcentral.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: "The Bowery Poetry Club" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Bowery Poetry Club: GRAND OPENING Sept 23-25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is it!! Graf yr Palm Pilots! Your chance to make history rhyme!=20 at long last!! The Bowery Poetry Club=20 GRAND OPENING Three Days of Poetry, Performance, Music, Art & Party =A0 =A0 Monday, Sept. 23, A Benefit for the Bowery Mission! =A0 The oral tradition is a large part of the Bowery Poetry Club=92s mission,= and tonight we=92ll hear the tales of Bowery locals -- the last days of = the flops, skid row, life up and down and out on the Bowery and a rare re= ading by street poet Orion. Dave Isay, radio producer and author of Floph= ouse, will host. =A0On the Bowery Art Wall: the Flophouse portraits of ph= otographer Harvey Wang will be on display. Special performance by Uncle J= immy's Dirty Basement. =A0 Tuesday Sept 23: Meet 308-310 Bowery!=20 Besides the Bowery Poetry Club, our building is home to the DVDojo, BPC=92= s sister club, who minister technology to project the art of poetry (amon= g other =93content=94): digital video, please! And Washington Square Film= s and Arts is upstairs, the crew who brought you the award-winning PBS se= ries, The United States of Poetry. Washington Square also books many perf= ormers, including Eric Bogosian, who will be tonight=92s featured perform= er. Also on the bill are members of this year=92s National Poetry Slam Ch= ampionship team, Urbana, who represent the Bowery Poetry Club. That would= be Shappy, Big George, Celena Glen, Taylor Mali, and Cristin O=92Keefe A= ptowicz. Special performance by Uncle Jimmy's Dirty Basement. =A0 Wednesday, Sept 25: =A0Massive Poetry Night! Special performance by Uncle= Jimmy's Dirty Basement. Open seven days from 9am=92s first cup of Inspiration Java till midnight=92= s Last Call for the Open Mike, the Bowery Poetry Club is a comfy new home= for poetry. Here=92s where you can browse the small press bookstore, vis= it with a poet barista, drink an Allen Gin-sberg or a Gertrude Wine. =A0T= onight, the poets come home to cut the umbilical ribbon to Shelley=92s Cl= oud Cuckoo Land incarnate. You=92ll hear from such po=92 stars as Sekou S= undiata, Sapphire, Hal Sirowitz, Steve Cannon, Maggie Estep, David Hender= son, John S Hall, Jessica Hagedorn, John Rodriguez, Max Blagg, and Jerry = Rothenberg and others. Our resident composer-conductor, Butch Morris, wil= l conduction these poets in a true Morris Chorus of Voices to conclude th= e evening, sweetly, sourly. And then, and officially, we=92re OPEN FOR Po-Business. =A0 =A0 Admission to all shows is $10. Doors are at 7. Shows are at 8:30.=20 The bar and coffee shop will be open. Let=92s Poetry Party!=20 =A0 =A0 The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery @ Bleecker, right across from CBGB's |F train to Second Ave=20= 6 train to Bleecker | 212-614-0505 _______________________________________________________________________ Powered by List Builder To unsubscribe follow the link: http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/sp?c=3D18073&s=3D2009C1456679AC1C&m=3D10 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:28:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Maxwell Subject: Marc Cholodenko & Kent Johnson @ Dawsons Book Shop, this Sunday! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Germ and the Poetic Research Bloc present: Marc Cholodenko & Kent Johnson This Sunday at 4pm at Dawsons Book Shop! *** Born in Paris in 1950, Marc Cholodenko is a prolific poet, novelist, translator and screenwriter After having dropped out of college, he = worked in the advertising business for two years. He then took up writing and = is now the author of over twenty books, including "Parcs" (1972), "M=E9tamorphoses" (1991) and "Les Etats du d=E9sert", which received = the prestigious Prix M=E9dicis in 1976. He is also the author of an erotic = novel which was awarded the Crazy Horse Prize for best erotic fiction. His = novel "Mordechai Schamz" has been published in translation by Dalkey Archives Press. Cholodenko has also translated over twenty books originally = published in the United States (notably Edmund White and William Gaddis) and in collaboration with Philippe Garrel (among others), has written over ten screenplays. Kent Johnson is a poet, translator and editor, most notorious as the = steward of the contested Araki Yasusada legacy in Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada, called "the most controversial poetry book since Allen Ginsberg's Howl". With Forrest Gander he has translated the = work of Jaime Saenz, Bolivia's greatest 20th century poet, in the recently released volume Immanent Visitor (UC Press, 2002). He is also editor of Beneath a Single Moon: Buddhism in Contemporary American Poetry = (Shambhala), and Third Wave: The New Russian Poetry (Michigan). He is translator of = A Nation of Poets: Writings from the Poetry Workshops of Nicaragua (West = End Press). A notable poet in his own right, he will be reading from his = own work and that of Jaime Saenz this Sunday. *** Doors open at 4pm. Readings at 4:30. Dawson's Book Shop is located just south of Hollywood, CA on 535 N. Larchmont Blvd between Beverly Blvd and Melrose Blvd. Tel: 323-469-2186 Readings are open to all. $3 donation requested for poets/venue. Call Andrew at 310.446.8162 x233 for more info. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:41:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: The State of the List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

This has been fun, listening to all the Little People being self-righteously angry over other Little People's self-righteous anger.  I was unsure that Little People even existed, until now.  Maybe we shld taxi them into Baghdad as low level smart bombs, kissers up against Saddam's kneecap; take that, sucka . . .

But what person in any frame of mind at all wouldn't aspire to being called, here, an Insufferable Dick, a Fucking Jerk, an Inflamed Asshole?

Is this not the Ivy League of lists?

 

From: Vernon Frazer
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:40:22 -0400
Thanks, Bill. I had a sense from some of your poems online that you knew
more than a little about urban reality.
Jim, thanks for your post. I think it helped clear the air and clarifed
concersn that a number of people share.
Richard, I agree. It's sad that things have become the way they are. Years
ago, a clever remark would end a dispute. Nowadays, unfortunately, the same
remark might send a stranger into the pedestrian counterpart of road rage.
Vernon
, ----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: The State of the List, a possible Don King Promotion
> In a message dated 9/12/02 8:26:11 PM, vfrazer@ATTBI.COM writes:
>
> << I gather some people were upset by my last post, so I'll offer a
qualified
> apology.
>
> >>
>
> The apology is good, but just so you don't feel like a complete shit--I've
> been where you've been, and I understand. Best, Bill
>
> WilliamJamesAustin.com
> KojaPress.com
> Amazon.com
> BarnesandNoble.com
>


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========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: the state of this list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a thought for everybody to explode over: any poem that doesn't greatly risk sentimentality is crap. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:35 AM Subject: Re: the state of this list > In a message dated 9/12/02 8:45:58 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > << Bill. What do you think of C Bernstein's essays? >> > > Richard, I admire Bernstein's work, front to back, with the usual bumps in > the road. His essays, especially the early ones in Content's Dream, > intrigued me right off the ole wood, er, bat. My own immersion in > Continental theory and its American perversions made me the perfect audience, > I suppose. However, in my last book, 5 UNDERWORLD 6, I included a short > critique of Bernstein's "Thought's Measure." His essay suffers from > imprecision which is most certainly corrected elsewhere in Bernstein's > writings, as I point out at the close of my own piece. I guess my point is > that critique, even a bit of negativity, doesn't necessarily preclude > admiration. > > As for Bernstein on the syrupy, it's certainly not a new idea. Eliot did the > police in different voices, and some find moments in The Waste Land a tad > drippy. I looked back through my own work and found one or too borderline > moments. I do think it's possible to add a dash of sentiment without giving > your audience cavities. It's not easy to do, and if I may refer to tsetse > once more, such moments really must be earned by the rest of the poem. > > Personally, I'm a fan of the polyvocal. Old notions of unity in > form/content/tone are, well, old. And Bernstein's poetry is not free of > sentiment. In fact, there is so much hangover from the New York School in so > much of the work by the original and major language poets that one should not > be surprised to find a bit of sweetums there. I don't think it overwhelms > the work when it shows up. Generally, Bernstein seems pretty crafty re: how > and where to place it. He's good. > > Not one major poet that I can think of, now or then, completely eliminated > sentiment from the work nor, I suspect, did s/he intend to so limit the > expression of human experience. as just one example, cummings, who was > certainly a technical wizard, is also quite sentimental. > > I lose interest only when the syrup overwhelms the pancake. As for > abstraction, that's probably a matter of taste whether it's Williams, or > Pound, or Pollock, so I really can't argue with you there. For me, the vague > and the imprecise can be too different things. Pollock's drip paintings are > vague, I suppose, but never imprecise. Of course I may be in violation of > dictionary definitions here, so mea culpa. Anyway, no artist is without > flaws; that's a given. Sorry if I didn't get to all of your points, but I've > a ton of work waiting for me today, like most days. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:13:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: State of the List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's more fun from the Thoughts of Bob G.: I see nothing wrong with a school of poetry's being acadominant, and wouldn't mind my own kind of poetry being that. But I'd prefer that the academy, and commercial publishers, and grants-bestowers, and the other people who decide whether a poet has to have two jobs to support his habit, be as eclectic in their recognition of value as Behrle thinks he is. Now a little clarification about "acadominant," which is my term, so I get to define it, and I define it as being considered by the academy the most consequential poetry around. It is not necessarily "academic" poetry, though it is likely to become so, since once it gets the academy's stamp of approval, students will tend to write it frequently and academically (i.e., mechanically, in an effort to do the right thing rather than naturally, in an effort to do what they must, as many of them will come to do with maturation). I occasionally zing the language poets' belief that they are still outsiders, and don't believe in some of the things they believe in, but I generally treat them pretty well. I've never had any problem with the fact that they do tend to be intellectual and academic-sounding at times in their criticism, however little I agree with much of it. What I resent about them is only what they tend to resent about the later twentieth century workshop poets, by whatever name, and why should I not? Perhaps there are poets who don't mind being invisible, or that their entire school of poetry is practically invisible, but I have blood and do mind. But it seems that my main school of poetry is slowly making a place for itself, even in the academy. Drop in at The Center for Book Arts in New York sometime from 20 September through 15 November (28 West 27th Street, 3rd Floor) to see work by artists connected with the anthology of visio-textual art, Writing To Be Seen, that Crag Hill and I edited last year, for instance. Presentations by some of those artists including me 6--8 P.M. 20 September and starting at 7 P.M. 15 November. I just hope that if "my people" ever become acadominant, the people who write about us don't ignore that poetries coming to the fore behind ours as near-completely, and for as long, as we've been ignored by the champions of language poetry. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:41 AM > I would like to further discuss one of the things I posted yesterday. Why > is divisiveness important to innovative poetry? There have been many posts > dedicated to bashing Language Poetry, which turns 25 this year. Is it > crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, > and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of hostilities? > Why isn't "Oh, you know, they do they're thing and I do my thing" an OK > response? Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, > what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into? Just > subsequent generations of movements that have already come? > > I would call for more eclecticism and less cliquishness. We applaud > well-rounded readers in almost every other genre, why should poetry be so > very different? Good poetry is good poetry. And even if it isn't good > poetry, shouldn't something be said for giving people's work a chance > instead of dismissing it immediately without a read? Ought I be able to > read Laure-Anne Bosselaar, Sparrow, Jim Brodey, Richard Hell, Donald Hall, > Lyn Hejinian and Lucie Brock-Broido in the same night without there being a > sense that something is wrong with me? I own ABBA and Clash records, they > get along OK. At what point do our aesthetics make us ascetic readers? > > --Jim Behrle > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: the state of this list In-Reply-To: <005801c25b66$fc3c5780$92aafea9@j1c1k6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob G. writes: Since I'm being Mr. Positive these days, I'll reply in this positive manner, tone, and key: I agree with you. (I'm nice, I'm nice, like me, he sobs.) I think poetry must risk any number of things at any given time. Sentimentality is but one. But, and here is where I will make my distinction . . . I don't think poetry should indulge sentimentality. And I think asking a poem what it's risking, and accusing a poem of its indulgences, is a wonderful and valid role that a reader should work toward. I say this at great risk, of course, because I want everyone to love my poems . . . but if they love all poems simply because they're poems, why should any poet try very hard to get it right? And what would it mean to say I like your poems, anyway? --Love, JG PS. Roses are red, Violets are blue. I'll think your poems are great, if you think mine are too. Amen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:16:15 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Beyond Iowa [long post] I was going to do one of those detailed responses where I quote a little bit of everyone's posts from the past day or so, but they've all piled up too much, so I'm going to be foolhardy and attempt a general response from memory. My apologies to those whose comments I will inevitably omit to address. To begin with, I want to try to restate my primary concerns: 1) that, in a nutshell, the most frequently encountered critical assaults on "workshop poetry" seem to me to be operating on some faulty assumptions about how poetic conventions such as lineation, etc. work; 2) that there *is* nevertheless something "wrong" with the workshop poem as typified by the Addonizio example, and that this "wrongness" *can* be got at via a consideration of structure and process that avoids the formerly mentioned faulty assumptions. I think Gary S. and Mike M. and Mark D. and several others have made eloquent and persuasive cases to Jim B. for the necessity of examining poems in a negative light at times. I won't rehearse this debate any further here, except to echo what several others have said: K. Addonizio is a full-grown, professional poet, and doesn't need protection from critical "abuse." Part of being a poet is putting your ideas, attitudes, and habits out on public display where, in a free intellectual culture, they are fair game for analysis, approving or disapproving. The recent disagreements about _Fence_ and Rebecca Wolff that arose from Steven Evans' remarks on the Third Factory site are a case in point. I disagreed with Evans' view on that issue, but felt that his criticisms were perfectly valid as public discourse. Rebecca was put, I felt, in a painful position, but she responded to it in a spirit of intellectual maturity and reasoned debate, because (I'm projecting--she may disagree) she recognized the necessity of the permissibility of the exchange. The discussion here in the past few days has been very interesting, and I would like to see it continue. Certainly labels like "Iowa poetry" and "workshop poetry" are reductive and need to be qualified. But bringing them up (thanks, J Gallaher [sp?], wasn't it?) led to what I feel has been a productive and exciting conversation. The following points, out of those raised during the discussion, are the ones I find the most interesting: * Patrick D.'s distinction between self-evidence and self-consciousness. I don't have his words in front of me, and even if I did, I'd probably misread them, but here's what I get from what I remember: 1) typical mainstream workshop praxis consists of an unspoken consent to subscribe to the notion that the poem itself knows what it wants to say/be/look like, etc., and that it's the job of the workshop participants to just sort of go with the flow and let the magic of composition unfold, whereas 2) "poetics"-based workshop praxis takes (or *should* take?) a more analytical line on process, on the social meanings of relations between author and reader, intention and appreciation, etc. The first approach posits self-evidence as an effect of poetic quality, whereas the second posits self-consciousness (both individual and communal, I guess) as a prerequisite for any climate in which a meaningful account of quality can emerge. [Patrick, forgive me if this has already gone far astray from your point.] Furthermore, practitioners in the first system *assume* that their self-evidence model somehow counts as a self-consciousness model. This is the part I'm still foggy on, but I'm ready and willing to pursue it further. I'm especially interested in how Pound's Imagism fits into this scheme, because it seems to me to be a poetics that leads both into and out of the mess, depending on who's interpreting it. Certainly Pound's own vagueness (clear, bright edges, blah blah) is to blame for the ease with which Imagism can become a sloppy commodity, but at the same time there are notions of verbal economy and precision in there that seem like they could mean something useful with a bit of teasing. And certainly they *did* come to mean such things at the hands of Williams and the Objectivists, no? I mean, their innovations wouldn't have happened in the same way *without* Imagism, however much their poetics is in reaction against it. I've already dragged this particular thread all over the map, but one more thing: Amy Lowell's "corruption" of Imagism seems very relevant here. Are there any Lowell supporters out there? Because it seems like it would be very tempting for some people to argue that the origins of the "workshop" or "mainstream" model have their genesis with her, especially when such arguments assume an ongoing oscillation between experimental methods and their appropriation in "debased" form by mainstream organs. * The other thing, which wasn't what I wanted to talk about originally, but seems like it must be important, is the way in which this debate has repeatedly been connected to a politics of gender representation. Dodie, you pointed out that my hod-carrier poem draws on the supposedly comic implications of a hod boss reading Anais Nin, in a way that the same guy reading Henry Miller wouldn't be perceived as comic. That's funny, because I originally did type "Henry Miller," then replaced it with Nin, because 1) "Anais Nin" is more interesting to me as linguistic sound; 2) it seemed to support the idea of the boss enjoying the lesbian scenes more effectively, since Miller's own sex scenes are just as often purely hetero; and 3) one of the things that strikes me as problematic about a lot of "working-class" poems by workshop-type writers is the uneasy collapse of "literary" discourse into scenes of blue-collar labor. DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT saying that no blue-collar workers are well-read, etc.; I'm talking about what I perceived as an unexamined impulse on the part of some writers to have their cake and eat it too: to bring the subject matter of their poems "down to the level of the masses" while simultaneously displaying their own erudition. This is a touchy issue, I realize, but I do think there's a lot of class condescension of this sort. Has anyone seen _The Good Girl_? It has some worthwhile moments, but it's another one of those films that gets comic mileage out of working-class characters waxing literary-rhetorical, as if the only way to represent intelligence in the poor were to turn them into ironically eloquent pastoral figures. (I can't recall any exact quotes from the film, but a good example from another film [which I nevertheless love] is when dirt-dumb ex-con Nick Cage says in a voiceover in _Raising Arizona_ in the scene where he and Holly Hunter find out they can't have kids: "The doctor explained to me that her womb was a barren, rocky place where my seed could find no purchase.") Now, Dodie, you may have a point here that on this third level I am counting on some kind of "ridiculousness-factor" associated with the boss reading Nin, but at least in my mind the ridiculousness is located in the made-up decision of the fictitious poet rather than in the actual situation described. I'm probably still guilty of a sexist generalization somewhere in that mess, however, so I'll stop trying to wiggle out of it. Which leads into your formulation, Dodie, of "female content," which I'm sure will raise some hackles. That central question of the role of "content" in poetry has bred some of the worst reductive stereotypes of experimental writing, and what you say about female writers being forced to adopt an abstract idiom out of embarrassment etc. is HUGELY provocative. Like, a nuclear powder-keg. I'm afraid to touch this one with a ten-foot phallic symbol myself, but I want to hear more on it. Oh, by the way, Dodie, that piece you were working on, with the workshop writer who gradually turns her nice little poem into filthy smut--where can we see this??? It sounds great! * This isn't really a point or anything, but I just want to say it before I forget: Jim, that last Addonizio poem you posted, that one about the dead--I swear to god that is a Stephen Dobyns poem. Or, maybe it's not, but it is so much like a Dobyns poem that I remember reading back in the late 80's, that it sounds like she just read his poem and decided to write it again herself. I'm not making any explicit accusations or judgments here. It just blows my mind. I think it must a poem out of _Cemetery Nights_ that it reminds me of (OK, yes, I used to read Dobyns). * What I originally wanted to get at the most: readings in which line breaks, etc. are adduced as evidence of or analogues to some semantic content: my hypothesis is that they're generally wrongheaded. I think this fits in with Patrick D.'s call for a model of reading in which we get beyond exclusive fixation on the text as object, and into a model where we also consider "lyric intention" (Patrick's useful phrase) and "appreciation," and the ways in which these concerns play into the *process* of writing. The extended notion of process that Patrick points toward is one that I'm very eager to keep talking about, especially as it might lead to a prospectus for a new approach to "close reading." Anyone still there? Over and out. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Re: the state of this list In-Reply-To: <005801c25b66$fc3c5780$92aafea9@j1c1k6> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 9/13/02 4:48 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET wrote: "and this, because it is not love, is shit"--d.a. levy > Here's a thought for everybody to explode over: any poem that doesn't > greatly risk sentimentality is crap. > > --Bob G. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: Patrick F. Durgin's Color Music: New from Cuneiform Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 in town the snow being a = blackout due to the weight of the = weather 'ought' is the order. = of thought =20 =20 News from Cuneiform Press: =20 Patrick F. Durgin Color Music =20 There are 100 copies of Color Music. Letterpress printing = cover-to-cover in Palatino & Caslon type on handmade gray Zerkall German = Ingress. Bound in gray Stonehenge coverstock with endpapers and = pamphlet-sewn by Kristen Gallagher of Handwritten press. Six color = images assembled and designed by Eric Troolin. Color Music is = distributed by the printer, and available for $7.00, made payable to: Cuneiform Press ~ 577 =BD West Ferry Street ~ Buffalo, New York = 14222-1511 Other Recent Cuneiform Press Titles Include: = Los Books by Gregg = Biglieri = The Boundary of Theory by Nick Piombino Prose Acts by Eileen Myles, Dennis Cooper, Robert Gl=FCck, & Lawrence = Ytzhak Braithwaite = Steel Bar Fiona Templeton and Steve McCaffery = Chapter in a Day Finch Journal by Luisa Giugliano Contact Kyle Schlesinger ks46@acsu.buffalo.edu for further information. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:01:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: apt shared needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Renee Gladman is looking for a share in NYC. She can pay up to $700. If you have any leads let me know and pass it on to her. Thanks, Brenda Coultas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:45:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Avery Burns Subject: Canessa Park 9/29/02 Mark DuCharme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Canessa Park Reading Series 708 Montgomery Street @ Columbus San Francisco, CA Sunday September 29th, 2002 5 pm Admission $5 a talk by Mark DuCharme "Radical Lyricality." The term "lyric," applied to the context of contemporary poetics, often suggests a narrow, even totalizing approach to form; a dehistoricizing of the poetic; & a reifying of the lyrical subject. Yet, poems which could be called "lyrics" continue to be written in large numbers by many poets who would cast a critical eye on the politics of "the lyrical" as it has been received. How to reconcile these perceptions, or else rescue the lyric from the prison-house of its ideological over-determination? Don't know. Ultimately, my program is clear: "to propose a view of this genre which is dynamic rather than fixed, and permeable rather than bound by shapes & tendencies of canonical master-texts"-- "a contested & contestible site," in other words, which "holds the potential to serve as a kind of laboratory for radical praxis." Or whatever. Mark DuCharme’s first collection of poems, _Cosmopolitan Tremble_, was published in 2002 by Pavement Saw Press. His most recent chapbook, _Anon_, co-written with Anselm Hollo, Patrick Pritchett and Laura E. Wright, appeared in 2001 from Potato Clock Editions. Other chapbooks include _Near To_ (Poetry New York, 1999), _Contracting Scale_ (Standing Stones Press, 1996) and _i, a series_ (Burning Press, 1995). His poetry and essays in poetics have appeared in numerous print and on-line publications. He lives in Boulder, Colorado. Hope to see you there, Avery E. D. Burns Literary Director __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:40:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Reading Series MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The first reading in my new Writers & Teachers series at Barnes & Noble Westwood (in the Westside Pavilion at the corner of Westwood & Pico) is Tuesday, September 17 at 7:30 pm. It'll be the first time I meet these online creative writing students, and the first time I read my creative nonfiction. The series, which will highlight local writers and their teaching methodologies, will eventually tour Barnes & Nobles. The Barnes & Noble Westwood readings are not like some other chain store readings: B&N orders teacher books, student readers are paid, and there are *snacks*. Warm regards, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:49:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: UCLA Extension Writers Faire MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tomorrow in Los Angeles, on the UCLA campus Young Hall Patio, UCLA Extension will hold its mini-writing conference from 10 am to 2 pm. Usually there are bagels and muffins, but this year I'm not so sure. I will be talking about the end of the Poetry Wars on a panel I proposed, which will be chaired by Suzanne Lummis. I am also going to talk about online poetry workshops. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:08:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: humor theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Kevin, altho that isnt the name I can almost recall. It's just my lazinness--I know where to look for it: under that pile of books, jerseys and shirts, sigh. Perhaps manana. XXX< David -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Killian To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:49 PM Subject: Re: humor theory >At 4:56 PM -0700 9/10/02, dcmb wrote: >>much that is valuable can be found via the indices of Slavoj Zizek's books. >>but who was the author to whom Peter Quartermain frequently referred in his >>talk on humor in the poetry of Robin Blaser at Vancouver in 1995? David > > >Hi David, I think this must have been "Syncope" by Catherine Clement, >which discusses the laugh in terms of it being a rip into >consciousness (very Lacanian) (and a wonderful book) > >xxx Kevin K. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:03:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Three Steps Behind for Allen Bramhall misread, misread, asking for work content yourself with a fist and body I suggest your use of roll rigid if ever mocking specific pax scintillatingly posting things posted, post, post, you scolding posts! Jim, Bob, Allen, Vernon don't like reacting to the recent steps behind Kim's not Grumman's, Frazer's anyway but sorry who was reading small you are at least three squabbles rocks endlessly of you so ago term drama accedes frankly applicable to a month or you listservs cut you, you fight zest could be up, off and on so jerk I snotty and let remarks to unrewarding everyone be elided one cares, but who was not decided --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Stephen Ellis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Stephen Ellis should be sent to Iraq to read his poems. Once everyone was asleep, Baghdad would be ours for the taking. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "dbuuck@mindspring.com" Subject: looking for tom hibbard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable anyone have email or other contact info for tom hibbard? b/c fine=2E thanks - David Buuck -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:58:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Reading Series In-Reply-To: <001401c25b8f$b4152210$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >The first reading in my new Writers & Teachers series at Barnes & Noble >Westwood (in the Westside Pavilion at the corner of Westwood & Pico) is >Tuesday, September 17 at 7:30 pm. > >It'll be the first time I meet these online creative writing students, >and the first time I read my creative nonfiction. The series, which >will highlight local writers and their teaching methodologies, will >eventually tour Barnes & Nobles. > >The Barnes & Noble Westwood readings are not like some other chain store >readings: B&N orders teacher books, student readers are paid, and there >are *snacks*. > >Warm regards, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net Is Westwood part of L.A.? -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:31:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any revolution is bound to become a tyranny. Once upon a time, Langpo was that revolution but isn't any more - this is a normal historical process & the new revolution is always coming. I, not unlike many others, keep bashing langpo but i do own a lot of books written by langpoets. In fact, some of these books are my favorite poetry books, and I am sure i am not the only one who feels this way. There is nothing wrong with "bashing" - critiquing is (and that's what it really is) a very important thing in art because too much consent generates self-indulgence. I wasn't born in the US and come with a different cultural baggage, so when i came here i was surprised at how little people critiqued each other's work face to face, instead of talking about it behind their backs. That's why we need "bashing" - so that "our categories [won't] completely define what we're up to," to paraphrase your own words. mikhail magazinnik In a message dated 9/13/2002 11:57:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > I would like to further discuss one of the things I posted yesterday. Why > is divisiveness important to innovative poetry? There have been many posts > dedicated to bashing Language Poetry, which turns 25 this year. Is it > crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, > and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of > hostilities? > Why isn't "Oh, you know, they do they're thing and I do my thing" an OK > response? Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, > what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into? Just > subsequent generations of movements that have already come? > > I would call for more eclecticism and less cliquishness. We applaud > well-rounded readers in almost every other genre, why should poetry be so > very different? Good poetry is good poetry. And even if it isn't good > poetry, shouldn't something be said for giving people's work a chance > instead of dismissing it immediately without a read? Ought I be able to > read Laure-Anne Bosselaar, Sparrow, Jim Brodey, Richard Hell, Donald Hall, > Lyn Hejinian and Lucie Brock-Broido in the same night without there being a > sense that something is wrong with me? I own ABBA and Clash records, they > get along OK. At what point do our aesthetics make us ascetic readers? > > --Jim Behrle > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:53:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: vag.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII vag.mov leg-hinges moved on it - brilliant sparkling swollen testicles - or leg-hinges flooded - dark waves of swollen labia - they moved - they engorged - or they were engorged - the swellings far too bright - brightened behind the murmurs - the waves of murmurs - within or between the swellings - shudderings across the glistenings - protruding and repeating within the glistenings - within the scent of swollen testicles - flooding momentarily within them - stuttering within and stuttering without - within tumescences and distumescences - the pulling everything within them - open animation, churned cunt your labia, your absorbing night all - the lips engorged - or leg-hinges flooded - dark waves of swollen labia - they moved - or they were engorged - the swellings far too bright - brightened behind the murmurs - the waves of murmurs - within or between the swellings - shudderings across the glistenings - protruding and repeating within the glistenings - within the scent of swollen testicles - stuttering within and stuttering without - within tumescences and distumescences - the pulling everything within them - w/hole another one swallowing connecting, meta-balls - === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:18:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Revoluion is not "bound become tryanny" revolutions and reforms ad other "upheavels gradually pave the way toward a real democracy: such that ther people control the state not the state the people: the US is a kind of Huxwellian dictatorship....but the rest of what you say I concur: i dont think it matters where people derive from we are ultimatley all human and i feel we should be open, openly critical but not hurtful (so that some criitcicsm is probably best left out): we dont need bashing but if you read "Your Erroneous Zones" by DR Wayne Dyer you would be able to see tat we need to be able to deal with rejection, even "failure" (in a sense there is no such thing as failure). We should aim to be. Its better,as Dyer says "to be a doer rather than a critic". But we shouldnt fear openness given that we have compassion. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Magazinnik" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 7:31 PM > Any revolution is bound to become a tyranny. Once upon a time, Langpo was > that revolution but isn't any more - this is a normal historical process & > the new revolution is always coming. I, not unlike many others, keep bashing > langpo but i do own a lot of books written by langpoets. In fact, some of > these books are my favorite poetry books, and I am sure i am not the only one > who feels this way. There is nothing wrong with "bashing" - critiquing is > (and that's what it really is) a very important thing in art because too much > consent generates self-indulgence. I wasn't born in the US and come with a > different cultural baggage, so when i came here i was surprised at how little > people critiqued each other's work face to face, instead of talking about it > behind their backs. That's why we need "bashing" - so that "our categories > [won't] completely define what we're up to," to paraphrase your own words. > > mikhail magazinnik > > > > In a message dated 9/13/2002 11:57:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > > > I would like to further discuss one of the things I posted yesterday. Why > > is divisiveness important to innovative poetry? There have been many posts > > dedicated to bashing Language Poetry, which turns 25 this year. Is it > > crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, > > and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of > > hostilities? > > Why isn't "Oh, you know, they do they're thing and I do my thing" an OK > > response? Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, > > what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into? Just > > subsequent generations of movements that have already come? > > > > I would call for more eclecticism and less cliquishness. We applaud > > well-rounded readers in almost every other genre, why should poetry be so > > very different? Good poetry is good poetry. And even if it isn't good > > poetry, shouldn't something be said for giving people's work a chance > > instead of dismissing it immediately without a read? Ought I be able to > > read Laure-Anne Bosselaar, Sparrow, Jim Brodey, Richard Hell, Donald Hall, > > Lyn Hejinian and Lucie Brock-Broido in the same night without there being a > > sense that something is wrong with me? I own ABBA and Clash records, they > > get along OK. At what point do our aesthetics make us ascetic readers? > > > > --Jim Behrle > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:47:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: De-Bashed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Checked out the Google Groups site and am still laughing! Jess ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 04:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: voice of the village MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0006 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com aflene hebben wit atleen Hieromme stortmen document write remained member till his tight more thrust power cock slid ass fingers pumped furiously the July The fingers she tasted These associated symptoms connexion with kidney within sherri indeed Does Garibaldi Placed command the troops sent painter was born threaten Pesaro quarter? introduced her rod English Dram Literature EDWARDS THOMAS CHARLES Zee Later the Saxon dialect the town Groningen once teaching he established the Pestalozzi institution century you? possible buy and lateral ventricles but between the with Biographical Introduction Whittier chloe feeling quite cocky Elbe conquered the territory occupied the Franks great that the heat lost purposes offence defence their head the khan who CIALDINI ENRICO with large cooling surface Reformation Eccard's songs great many collections aircraft marker setting course amphibious operations air control lighter easier felt situation call superiors give occasional consummated Defeasance wooden ruler stood held string arm stretched upright hanging sale the putting mutely Henna confused Pull added confusion knew changed foul the king for the settlement national affairs Under the sensuous fucking that rod particular places respectively The word true method unity Cyprian admirably describes these words old here slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- there mixed with Germans-belonged non-Germanic herself may mentioned the anterior lobes tired slave song lifts languid his mouth razor hoping snatch Harry's gun Harry took one quick side-step past sat questioned the rapid recovery nervous cells Hence must think that one and portraits Croker The Quarterly Review significant from ? nothing heard throwing collapsed NOTHING! situation may seem some odd mess wires hey like feather coming port may give landsman some notion done board ship All she greater part from Holland slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- Zeeland under Jan van Riebeek chronic ering From two pictures now the Belvedere gallery grabbed her hair pulled bringing groans pleasure rested that gave Missy held consul with Valerius dumb was born Scotland and educated ashamed hard crape wider almost perpendicular christ has been destroyed Tess read sound any other stay fortnight blow down coast began set strangely needed the latter that Peter the burial-place the bishopsof you heroine was Bonnie's right arm cross-reach left backward whip Harry spun occupied the French was San Diego phone number phone call waiting Reluctantly dialed refusal made cannot retracted Light Saviour world salvation except name foolhardiness man dis had heirs who threatening because all Neustria Opinions are divided to whether make use it was dark pia mater and blood-vessels constituting choroid plexus melted puff there no reasonable doubt that may cortex itself These fibres door down! spreading like wild fire that she noticed -The Consonants regards the consonants Dutch the main Méchan Reinhardt slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- Frauenholz the series plates known though would not pledge himself beheld the closed eyes One two scryers think that bar smoky half lectures spinning lean way down bury his Brahui gives reasons for regarding the employ commands forces trio considers necessary accomplish coke slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- corpus striatum are also found Theproblem the profitable -making what that woman life lead! fools fly O! tis sweet! finds heart one find which lie the falx cerebelli also pass bucket she finally got where store pleasures lodge hand! live life husband missionary and squeezed into her she couple minutes later work scan handiwork Heaven con mercy bounty wisdom power! nearer see God! something when she realized Yes hope German entirely praise Mahomet who most conspicuous agent was included was all nations the British are Schrader's hawk after removal the Warsaw Jewish parents red her than the fissures and not affect the internal cavity they egg-shaped pointed man wife yet remain more partners higher life partners ethical long Richard slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- King Lear DAWKINS WILLIAM BOYD went several causes man and the animals nearest him the cortex London Cambriae record that besieged Cadwallon perhaps in earlier one which sets forth the relative weights the Mansar There aircraft marker setting course amphibious operations air control numerous castes the Dogra pink round generally associated with other magnesian minerals slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- the put directly northward stood perfect confidence soundings taken bounded Cochabamba slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- Santa Cruz Santa for you think with don't want them! one province Friesland where intrusion the dialect spoken the troubled times that preceded the mutiny chupatties saying he's know girls are thick smoke for someone size inventor the yours words the writ that the plaintiff has she bidden shaking hands she thought cerebral apparatus for elegit this slightly off-center Gala looked clouded gloomy haze horizon wind- self-propagating particularly the commercial roll sulphur The word the disease this myth nor the solemn her words sent visible hot necessarily led him the law combination multiple actions her reaction for better accommodation see GRACCHUS when Crassus was not Cohen recalled watching recent television dramatization life South fire means fuel Glad believing secret prayer patient constant leader Nelson Mandela Emerging years imprisonment fishing stream but Sandwich and the admiralty and which are South Africa's president seemed party Illustrious eyes refocused saw acutely matters constant occurrence California got men who foot ladder riley Butlers! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 06:59:35 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: the utterance of capture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the balance of power drifts to the far side of the saloon. when guns bellow, so do words. the balance of power was merely guessing, but who could tell? it was a creative moment of endowment, and it would be the ball, rolling away, its full precious symmetry merely given to gravity. well. the balance of power could feel gravity, the wherewithal of distraction and attraction, allowing balance to finds its level. meanwhile, people stood around in the saloon, waiting to say something. this possible something could arrange high-flying birds, and mountains so trim and exacting that poetry itself would be the simplest exhaust. and that is not hope speaking but the pleasure of balance carrying us thru distracted days and the effort to be right. Fu Manchu can lord it over his minions, and seep into the edges of a civilization so intricately bland that numbers would never survive completely. it's all a matter of confusion, political puddles, the extreme loss of soundness as one speaks. yes, and it's really just a name we place on our 'détente', that little world gift we think we invent daily. Fu Manchu hungers for the usual ball of wax, and Sir Denis Nayland-Smith is no different. they've got a careful tussle to perform, with surety of expression a minor outpost among the contributing factors. there is a sigh, then, as Fu Manchu rereads his latest daunting note to his opponent. it's all a crock, he realizes, a blighty big crock. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:39:51 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: directing the page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it cries children with the ways of incidence. tours of the scene bring eyes forward, reverence for words. it is a battle of daylight versus the forces of night. we wake with rupture and run to school. there are posts in the way, great hankering inceptions filed under grove, the very idea. so we work our tails off, biting apples for a quick sense of the tart season. our escapade warrants a degree of influence, of camaraderie, of just staying 'on topic', whatever that might ever mean. it is the institute itself, the nightly pursuit and daily requiem. children are tarnished, sent in spins, while the delighted auditors take notes. this is processual, and arches over the language left here, in the background. meanwhile, the whole work looks looser. community wants its share, a colour bent around the wind. children are ardent, sure, and lost in many waves. there is a dear exchange, to allow the fields to clear off night's dewy build up. time fleeces us, cries some hurt and bewildered person, while the wind increases. the wind takes childhood and drags it to the top of the sky, where kites and balloons linger like froth. the day is confused but at least we have the words to speak, said anyone, uncomfortably. and yet sunshine brings everything together. when day is done, we sleep in the arms of night. night is a whisper of words, real words, tho we see them as pictures. what are our sayings worth? a person can ask, as the sun bobbles in the sky for moments, a wasted effort. a choice of emphasis becomes the last resort. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" please sign masha zavialova onto Poetics. her email address is zavi0004@umn.edu -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:41:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Beyond Iowa [long post] Comments: To: ksilem@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" 1) yeah, dodie, that was a hoot. where can we see the dirty version, plus all the in between progressions? 2) riffing off of your paraphrase of p durgin's characterizing of "workshop" poetry: my impression of workshop poetry is that it is very "craft"-oriented, not nearly as invested in process as, say, St Mark's/ New York School or other approaches that folks on this list might be more sympathetic to (black mt, etc). at the same time, i agree, there is an adamant refusal to examine the social/political context in which that craft is deployed --thus the sense of intellectual impoverishment of many workshop experiences --so there's a peculiar reduction of process and the content of workshop meetings to "wordsmithing." there's very little exuberance or spontaneity --in fact in the workshops i've taught, the creative writing students seem agonizingly wary of spontaneity (as if it would compromise their self-image as hard workers, intense about every word, etc), and at the same time, very little honest analytic rigor or interesting contextual discussion, in workshop situations, in my experience. 3) for an interesting and fun, if tangential, take on blue collar poets, see Jacques Ranciere's "Ronds de Fumee," it's about the 18th or 19th century french vogue for blue collar workers among the bourgeoisie who patronized them; interesting stuff on the class position of the poets: part of the poignancy of their "predicament" was that they were, as it were, trapped in the wrong class; they were bourgeois souls trapped in workingclass bodies, etc. At 6:16 PM -0400 9/13/02, ksilem@mindspring.com wrote: >I was going to do one of those detailed responses where I quote a little bit >of everyone's posts from the past day or so, but they've all piled up too >much, so I'm going to be foolhardy and attempt a general response from memory. > My apologies to those whose comments I will inevitably omit to address. > >To begin with, I want to try to restate my primary concerns: 1) that, in a >nutshell, the most frequently encountered critical assaults on "workshop >poetry" seem to me to be operating on some faulty assumptions about how poetic >conventions such as lineation, etc. work; 2) that there *is* nevertheless >something "wrong" with the workshop poem as typified by the Addonizio example, >and that this "wrongness" *can* be got at via a consideration of structure and >process that avoids the formerly mentioned faulty assumptions. > >I think Gary S. and Mike M. and Mark D. and several others have made eloquent >and persuasive cases to Jim B. for the necessity of examining poems in a >negative light at times. I won't rehearse this debate any further here, >except to echo what several others have said: K. Addonizio is a full-grown, >professional poet, and doesn't need protection from critical "abuse." Part of >being a poet is putting your ideas, attitudes, and habits out on public >display where, in a free intellectual culture, they are fair game for >analysis, approving or disapproving. The recent disagreements about _Fence_ >and Rebecca Wolff that arose from Steven Evans' remarks on the Third Factory >site are a case in point. I disagreed with Evans' view on that issue, but >felt that his criticisms were perfectly valid as public discourse. Rebecca >was put, I felt, in a painful position, but she responded to it in a spirit of >intellectual maturity and reasoned debate, because (I'm projecting--she may >disagree) she recognized the necessity of the permissibility of the exchange. > >The discussion here in the past few days has been very interesting, and I >would like to see it continue. Certainly labels like "Iowa poetry" and >"workshop poetry" are reductive and need to be qualified. But bringing them >up (thanks, J Gallaher [sp?], wasn't it?) led to what I feel has been a >productive and exciting conversation. > >The following points, out of those raised during the discussion, are the ones >I find the most interesting: > >* Patrick D.'s distinction between self-evidence and self-consciousness. I >don't have his words in front of me, and even if I did, I'd probably misread >them, but here's what I get from what I remember: 1) typical mainstream >workshop praxis consists of an unspoken consent to subscribe to the notion >that the poem itself knows what it wants to say/be/look like, etc., and that >it's the job of the workshop participants to just sort of go with the flow and >let the magic of composition unfold, whereas 2) "poetics"-based workshop >praxis takes (or *should* take?) a more analytical line on process, on the >social meanings of relations between author and reader, intention and >appreciation, etc. The first approach posits self-evidence as an effect of >poetic quality, whereas the second posits self-consciousness (both individual >and communal, I guess) as a prerequisite for any climate in which a meaningful >account of quality can emerge. [Patrick, forgive me if this has already gone >far astray from your point.] Furthermore, practitioners in the first system >*assume* that their self-evidence model somehow counts as a self-consciousness >model. This is the part I'm still foggy on, but I'm ready and willing to >pursue it further. I'm especially interested in how Pound's Imagism fits into >this scheme, because it seems to me to be a poetics that leads both into and >out of the mess, depending on who's interpreting it. Certainly Pound's own >vagueness (clear, bright edges, blah blah) is to blame for the ease with which >Imagism can become a sloppy commodity, but at the same time there are notions >of verbal economy and precision in there that seem like they could mean >something useful with a bit of teasing. And certainly they *did* come to mean >such things at the hands of Williams and the Objectivists, no? I mean, their >innovations wouldn't have happened in the same way *without* Imagism, however >much their poetics is in reaction against it. I've already dragged this >particular thread all over the map, but one more thing: Amy Lowell's >"corruption" of Imagism seems very relevant here. Are there any Lowell >supporters out there? Because it seems like it would be very tempting for >some people to argue that the origins of the "workshop" or "mainstream" model >have their genesis with her, especially when such arguments assume an ongoing >oscillation between experimental methods and their appropriation in "debased" >form by mainstream organs. > >* The other thing, which wasn't what I wanted to talk about originally, but >seems like it must be important, is the way in which this debate has >repeatedly been connected to a politics of gender representation. Dodie, you >pointed out that my hod-carrier poem draws on the supposedly comic >implications of a hod boss reading Anais Nin, in a way that the same guy >reading Henry Miller wouldn't be perceived as comic. That's funny, because I >originally did type "Henry Miller," then replaced it with Nin, because 1) >"Anais Nin" is more interesting to me as linguistic sound; 2) it seemed to >support the idea of the boss enjoying the lesbian scenes more effectively, >since Miller's own sex scenes are just as often purely hetero; and 3) one of >the things that strikes me as problematic about a lot of "working-class" poems >by workshop-type writers is the uneasy collapse of "literary" discourse into >scenes of blue-collar labor. DISCLAIMER: I'm NOT saying that no blue-collar >workers are well-read, etc.; I'm talking about what I perceived as an >unexamined impulse on the part of some writers to have their cake and eat it >too: to bring the subject matter of their poems "down to the level of the >masses" while simultaneously displaying their own erudition. This is a touchy >issue, I realize, but I do think there's a lot of class condescension of this >sort. Has anyone seen _The Good Girl_? It has some worthwhile moments, but >it's another one of those films that gets comic mileage out of working-class >characters waxing literary-rhetorical, as if the only way to represent >intelligence in the poor were to turn them into ironically eloquent pastoral >figures. (I can't recall any exact quotes from the film, but a good example >from another film [which I nevertheless love] is when dirt-dumb ex-con Nick >Cage says in a voiceover in _Raising Arizona_ in the scene where he and Holly >Hunter find out they can't have kids: "The doctor explained to me that her >womb was a barren, rocky place where my seed could find no purchase.") Now, >Dodie, you may have a point here that on this third level I am counting on >some kind of "ridiculousness-factor" associated with the boss reading Nin, but >at least in my mind the ridiculousness is located in the made-up decision of >the fictitious poet rather than in the actual situation described. I'm >probably still guilty of a sexist generalization somewhere in that mess, >however, so I'll stop trying to wiggle out of it. Which leads into your >formulation, Dodie, of "female content," which I'm sure will raise some >hackles. That central question of the role of "content" in poetry has bred >some of the worst reductive stereotypes of experimental writing, and what you >say about female writers being forced to adopt an abstract idiom out of >embarrassment etc. is HUGELY provocative. Like, a nuclear powder-keg. I'm >afraid to touch this one with a ten-foot phallic symbol myself, but I want to >hear more on it. Oh, by the way, Dodie, that piece you were working on, with >the workshop writer who gradually turns her nice little poem into filthy >smut--where can we see this??? It sounds great! > >* This isn't really a point or anything, but I just want to say it before I >forget: Jim, that last Addonizio poem you posted, that one about the dead--I >swear to god that is a Stephen Dobyns poem. Or, maybe it's not, but it is so >much like a Dobyns poem that I remember reading back in the late 80's, that it >sounds like she just read his poem and decided to write it again herself. I'm >not making any explicit accusations or judgments here. It just blows my mind. > I think it must a poem out of _Cemetery Nights_ that it reminds me of (OK, >yes, I used to read Dobyns). > >* What I originally wanted to get at the most: readings in which line breaks, >etc. are adduced as evidence of or analogues to some semantic content: my >hypothesis is that they're generally wrongheaded. I think this fits in with >Patrick D.'s call for a model of reading in which we get beyond exclusive >fixation on the text as object, and into a model where we also consider "lyric >intention" (Patrick's useful phrase) and "appreciation," and the ways in which >these concerns play into the *process* of writing. The extended notion of >process that Patrick points toward is one that I'm very eager to keep talking >about, especially as it might lead to a prospectus for a new approach to >"close reading." > >Anyone still there? Over and out. > >Kasey -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:46:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Stephen Ellis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just as peace has been restored, however temporarily, you've gone and = offended the Little People. As I've tried to point, out, one's words = invite consequences. I have no doubt that the Little People will rise = against you...and bite your tootsies. You'd best start wearing = steel-capped shoes.=20 Vernon Frazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:27:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: request for info on The Conversions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All, This is a request I'm passing on for Laird Hunt: "I wonder if anyone out there could direct me to (or provide me with) info on The > Conversions by Harry Matthews. I am specifically interested in the Oulipian > techniques employed in it. The Oulipo Compendium refers to it as partially > Oulipian, but doesn't elaborate (or if it does I couldn't find where). Any > info would be very much appreciated. It's a novel I love but have never, > until now, had to teach. > > Best wishes, > > Laird Hunt > (Lairdhunt@aol.com)" > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:26:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit by bashing do you mean good natured ribbing & inside jokes or do you mean private unilateral campaigns to rid the list this list world of nasty antagonists? Michael Magazinnik wrote: > That's why we need "bashing" - so that "our categories > [won't] completely define what we're up to," to paraphrase your own words. > > mikhail magazinnik -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:45:06 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: The State of The List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick. I saw some of your correspondence with Ramon Qureshi and your patience and concern and interest in his corespondence: but I felt that you "dodged" the queston of political commitment. I agree re the problem of the rhetoric etc that arises. But some anger and some rhetoric is a sign of caring about an issue: and at certain historical times we have to declare where we stand. Poets are "the unaknowledged legilators of mankind" (the witnesses I feel) but there comes a time - now when I say " I am opposed to the US military-state complex. I'm certain Hussein has minimal nuclear capacity. Even if he had thousnbad of nukes then why dnt the US let Iraqi inspectors into the US? The US has weapons of mass destruction. Its leader is highly fundamentally religious.. I'm pretty certain (cant prove it no one can prove or dispove becuase the CIA etc control the information and dominate the media) that Bush or his mates organised S11. Pilger writes that about 5000 people are dying daily in Iraq becuase of your country's (basically illegal and bullying embargo). Ten years ago the literacy was high and there was a good economy in Iraq (the US rearrmed Saddam Hussein)....My dentist last year did brilliant work SHE was from Iraq. Very gentle and concerned and skillful. I see that Kent Johnson was "kicked off" th List because he wrote and essay saying: "Is Charles Bernstein a Political Poet" ...was this hubris by the major Langpo Guru in reaction to kent's statements? What's going on? I think that Johnson etal were critiquing US policy of bombing Bosnia and so on. Are freedom's beeing shut down everywhere including the on this List? When are the Langpos going to free themselves of wish wash: get real.....that's to say, a "non-political" (nothing is truly I think,ever..or very rarely are things so) of the politics in certain times is good - implicated in the languagae questions and so on - but at some point: when people's lives are at stake.. we have to get political. This can be frightening. I remember going onto the freezing works here in the 70s and showing photographs of the terrrible damage done by US bombs (these were photogrpahs from British doctors working in the North) now these guys argued: they all had knives. But I raised these questions. I also argued with rugby players in 1981 to their faces (re te Springbok Tour rugby toour of NZ) - sure I was scared at times - but I felt at certain times one has to act...now I'm not trying to be holier than thou: for a start when I was battened in the face by the cops in 1981 (it was like a civil war and the protesters used terrorists" tactics incluodng one guy who flew a plane over Eden Park when a game was in progress droping flour bombs: and previous to that there was another pilot who looked like he was going to fly his plane into a stadium, engineers were secretly trying to assemble surface-to air missiles to blow the passenger jets with the Springboks in tem (and other collaterals who cared?) out of the air, and there were plans to assasinate them ( of course these were rejected by the leadership at the time but it shows the "civil war" atmosphere that prevailed then). I was filled with about 25 valium tablets and still scared as hell when we marched against teh cops and te rugby supportters ina anattempt to stop the last game....But (more recently) I had in fact made a decision to "ivory tower" myself on about the 9th of September last year when things changed. A big part of me wants to "retreat" ... once my vision poetry was ( something like John Ashbery's) of a kind of art that was/is sui generis: I still believe that I mean that that is one kind of quite valid poetry practice). It's true I wasnt anywhere near the towers or NYso its "easy" in a sense for me: I can understand the fear of Americans and especially New Yorkers: and the outrage...but we cant all of us stay "outraged"...we need to act, to speak. I'm not attacking you or anyone I just want to express some things here: I felt that your posts around the time of S 11 were very intelligent and compa ssionate: a lot of mine were semi-crazed and I wasnt anywhere near NY (I'm of course in Auckland, New Zealand)....but question marks still hang around re the intersection of politics and poetry: over here John Geraets and Leigh Davis (who openly "loves " capitalism) seem to want to avoid the political realities. Davis enbraces exploitation of the working class and is on a vast income while posing as one of the "avant garde" and Geraets is into some obscure French theoretical fairyland. I wish politics would go away. But I have not read Johnson's essay but the title puts question marks up there hanging oer this List and the state of the world. What is the USE of poetry? Was the nihilistic side or aspect Auden right? (for example) (dont worry I've had a look down into Hades .... ) Sure people might be anxious: but of what? The list is ok as long as there's debate - even abusive debate. That's what human's do. But what were we /you I supposed to be anxious about? The invented terrorists or the real ones: the US state military complex and the clamping down on political freedoms and human rights in the Western nations or some supposed terrorists - none of whom have been decisivelly identified (except for a whelter of reports and threats most of which is bullshit to keep everone thinnking there's a need for war - anned to KILL PEOPLE ...MORE PEOPLE) - many so-called are either patsies or work for the CIA I reckon). the eternally recurring cycle of bombing by the British (grovelling in the wake of he US, with Australia and NZ also grovelling as usual) and the US.The lies about the Taliban, the attacks on Muslims who come from an ancient and great culture and great nations, the mess the military has made of Afghanistan, and so on....where do you stand? Where do other's stand. there's and ominous (scared?) silence.... Bush has threatened to use nuclear weapons for chrissakes... I wouldnt be wasting time shoring these brickbats in public if Ididnt think highly of your poetry and thinking. Richard Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:25:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: White Box Closure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi All, I don't think this has been posted here before, so here it is--scary. Dodie > -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sixteen Beaver [SMTP:lists@16beavergroup.org] > >> > >> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 2:18 AM > >> To: general@16beavergroup.org > >> Subject: Ayreen/Rene/Tanya-Re: White Box Closure > >> > >> > >> Ayreen/Rene/Tanya-Re: White Box Closure > >> > >> Dear friends and colleagues, > >> > >> As some of you may know, the opening for RadioActive, our most recent > >> audio > >> project, was prevented Wednesday night because of the closure of White Box > >> by the Homeland Security Cultural Bureau. > >> > >> Shocked and devastated, we have spent the last day and a half trying to > >> piece together the puzzle. It has been difficult to get straight answers > >> from the Bureau or from Juan, the Director of White Box. > >> But below are some details from Juan's cancellation letter to us which > >> give you an idea of what has been going on. > >> "Yesterday morning Carolyn Parker Mayes, the Director General of the > >> Cultural Bureau of Homeland Security ordered the closure of White Box. > >> Earlier today, in an interview on NPR, Carolyn Parker Mayes stated that > >> the exhibition space at White Box was used for illegal activities and > >> events that OEpose a threat to national security'. Below is a link to the > >> online version of the Order of Closure, they also forced me to post a copy > >> of it on the window and entrance of the space. > >> http://www.hscb.org/csp/whitebox.htm > >> It is with the deepest regrets that I inform you of the cancellation of > >> your exhibition, I will try to sort this out with the Bureau and we can > >> hopefully reschedule for a future date. As you know and I have indicated > >> this to Ms. Mayes, White Box is committed to linking contemporary art > >> with current political and ethical issues, but this should in no way pose > >> a threat to national security. Examples here are abundant: the symposium > >> and book signing event of Joel Sternfeld "treading on Kings: protesting > >> the G8 in Genoa" on April 13, 2002 ; the Public Forum in May, 2002 > >> entitled :"Art now: > >> Polite, Politic or Political?" sponsored by the American Civil Liberties > >> Union (ACLU) and the National Coalition Against Censorship (NCAC) Sand > >> many more examples. > >> I spoke with Don Devere, deputy director general of HSCB yesterday at 5:00 > >> pm about the closure of the space. He said that he could not answer any of > >> my questions. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a board member of the Cultural > >> Bureau, and I was able to get a hold of him through a friend. He said > >> that there was no discussion about it in the last meeting they attended. > >> He promised to raise the issue with Tom Ridge. He clearly stated that > >> this was a wrong move and that it is important to encourage alternative > >> voices within Culture." > >> We would like to ask you to raise your voice against this closure. It > >> seems that people like Ms. Mayes cannot tolerate people/organizations that > >> are sincerely seeking social and ethical engagement. > >> Please forward this note as widely as possible to all friends. > >> > >> Ayreen Anastas > >> Rene Gabri > >> Tanya Leighton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:01:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: White Box Closure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/14/02 10:26:57 AM, belladodie@EARTHLINK.NET writes: << Hi All, I don't think this has been posted here before, so here it is--scary. Dodie >> Dodie, I don't think we've traded fours yet, but thank you for posting this. Scary? That's an understatement. Unless there is a distinct and provable link between gallery personnel and terrorist plotting, this is totalitarian madness. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:10:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Reading Series IN LOS ANGELES In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >The first reading in my new Writers & Teachers series at Barnes & Noble >Westwood (in the Westside Pavilion at the corner of Westwood & Pico) IN > LOS ANGELES is Tuesday, September 17 at 7:30 pm. > >It'll be the first time I meet these online creative writing students, >and the first time I read my creative nonfiction. The series, which >will highlight local writers and their teaching methodologies, will >eventually tour Barnes & Nobles. > >The Barnes & Noble Westwood readings are not like some other chain store >readings: B&N orders teacher books, student readers are paid, and there >are *snacks*. > >Warm regards, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net Is Westwood part of L.A.? -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:04:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Stephen Ellis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

<< Stephen Ellis should be sent to Iraq to read his poems. Once everyone was asleep, Baghdad would be ours for the taking.  >>

Are you referring to their overal boring quality, or the sense of them as a kind of pixie dust?  I fear the former, and so, naturally enough, continue to habitually OD on the latter.  Ie., I ain't gonna go to Baghdad; 'cause I'm gonna keep my shit for myself.

S E

From: Jim Behrle
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Stephen Ellis
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:43:27 -0400
Stephen Ellis should be sent to Iraq to read his poems. Once everyone was
asleep, Baghdad would be ours for the taking.
--Jim Behrle
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========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:47:38 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Larry's Poetry Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ooking forward to seeing you'all soon-- Readings: 2 sets about 20-25 minutes each. From: Oct 7th-- Charlene Fix Oct 14th -- Marianna Hofer Oct 21st-- Elisa Brown Oct 28nd-- Kent Taylor from San Francisco Nov 4th-- Annual Dead Poets Reading Nov 11th-- John Byrum Nov 18th-- Sidney Jones Nov 25th-- Bob Flannegan Dec 2th-- Is Said All Events Mondays 7pm 2040 N. High St Columbus, Ohio All readings followed by a brief open mike. Funded by the Ohio Arts Council: A state agency that supports public programs in the arts. Be well David Baratier, Co-coordinator, Larry's Poetry Forum ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: White Box Closure: Hoax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Homeland Security Cultural Bureau site is a hoax. Otherwise, we would actually have an attorney-general who said this in an interview with "Director-General" of HSCB, on the HSBC site -- http://www.hscb.org/ -- >HSCB -Carolyn Parker Mayes: So can you tell us more about the more recent discussions, which led to the formation of Cultural Bureau of Homeland Security? >Atty Gen. John Ashcroft:Well Tom Ridge and I are avid painters and we share a passion for the arts. Our wives have even started an art collection with several other member of the Presidents cabinet, we purchase works and rotate them among one another's homes. We have attended a few Broadway shows, we attend the opera regularly, La Traviata is my absolute favorite, so yes, we generally just share an interest in the arts. When we were meeting more casually over a few intimate dinners, shortly after his appointment as the Director of the Office of Homeland Security, I told Tom about my passion for linking culture and politics. >And we agreed, which great civilization has not used its culture to form a mark on the history of the wolrd. Which Empires did not further their cause directly through the use of cultural attachments, whether they be architecture, poetry, sculpture, painting? >We agreed on all of these matters, so it was a question of convincing our President and despite what many may think, President Bush is very much inclined towards the arts. Of course, he does not have the sophisticated interest in color or the contours of the figure that Tom Ridge and I share, he goes much more for Hollywood, and popular music like Britney Spears, but nevertheless, he recognizes that Elvis did as much for spreading out the tentacles of America, or Jackson Pollack for giving a face to freedom against Communism, as any our great politicians of the time. ... >HSCB -Carolyn Parker Mayes: Well, we have arrived at the end of our interview, it was a great one at that. Despite our meanderings into many areas, I think our readers will appreciate your candid responses and I look forward to more online chats like this in the future. >Atty Gen. John Ashcroft: Likewise! I just want to add something for any of the young readers out there. Follow your dreams and if you have a passion for painting like I did, think about it less as some subversion or division from normal patriotic life. On the contrary, realize that you can also paint such lovely things as flags for example, as Jasper Johns did, or military portraits or scenes, as some great painters of the past and present like Leon Golub, Anselm Kiefer, and Jean Louis Ernest Meissonier have done. In short, culture can service this great nation if used in an acceptable fashion, one which recognizes the beauty and power of the all mighty God and the power that he has vested in this blessed land, good night and thank you! The official site for the Department of Homeland Security is http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/. There are no references to Leon Golub on this site, alas. White Box's web site is: http://www.whiteboxny.org/ For further, you may wish to note the appointment of Abe Golam, Director of the Office of Political And Economic Insecurity at http://www.usdept-arttech.net/release_06_14_02.html. Not a minute too soon, either. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:25:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Idiolect6 preview: Alan Sondheim's 911 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan this is brilliant ! Thank you. Love, Geoffrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:19 AM Subject: Idiolect6 preview: Alan Sondheim's 911 > As a small preview to the upcoming Idiolect 6, and a homage to the September 11 tragedies, Idiolect proudly offers Alan Sondheim's e-book 911: > > http://www.lewislacook.com/idiolect/idiolect6/sondheim.html > > > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! - We Remember > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:27:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Stephen Ellis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html

But, Vernon, what words don't "invire consequences"?  The Little People, anyway, have risen up against me so many times that all of my toes are already gone.  In fact, I think I bit off some of them myself . . .

From: Vernon Frazer
Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group
To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Stephen Ellis
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:46:33 -0400
Just as peace has been restored, however temporarily, you've gone and offended the Little People. As I've tried to point, out, one's words invite consequences. I have no doubt that the Little People will rise against you...and bite your tootsies. You'd best start wearing steel-capped shoes.
Vernon Frazer


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========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Stephen Ellis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suppose toes could be a valuable source of protein. But don't proclaim = that you're a vegetarian. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen Ellis=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: Re: Stephen Ellis In fact, I think I bit off some of them myself . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:09:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: allen bramhall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the utterance of capture and directing the page are exceptional pieces by you allen! cheers, augie www.litob.com www.amazon-salon.com www.atlantic-ploughshares.com www.thebookburningdepartment.com www.thebrainjuicepress.com www.antigenreelitecorps.com www.inkbombdisposalunit.com www.post-mortem-telepathic-society.com www.pornalisa.com www.digital-media-generation.com www.newliteraryunderground.com www.textmodificationstudio.com www.advancedliterarysciences.com www.cultureanimal.com www.muse-apprentice-guild.com www.literaturebuzz.com www.bookcrazed.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.385 / Virus Database: 217 - Release Date: 9/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:37:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Humor Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >I've fallen under a pile of jerseys, socks and small press magazines in David >Bromige's house and I can't get up. Send assistance! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:20:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Molly Schwartzburg Subject: Re: White Box Closure In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hmm...I'm wondering if this e-mail is a hoax/performance piece. There's an elaborate website here, but I can't find any of those named or of this "bureau" in a google search. Neither do I find any articles about a gallery of this name being shut down. Opinions? Molly Schwartzburg On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 9/14/02 10:26:57 AM, belladodie@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > > << Hi All, > > I don't think this has been posted here before, so here it is--scary. > > Dodie > >> > > Dodie, I don't think we've traded fours yet, but thank you for posting this. > Scary? That's an understatement. Unless there is a distinct and provable > link between gallery personnel and terrorist plotting, this is totalitarian > madness. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com > *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:23:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I want to look back to Patrick's post from a couple days ago, and to Maria's post from today, and then pose some open questions about the terms "craft" and "process": on 9/12/02 12:14 PM, Patrick F. Durgin at pdurgin@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU wrote: > My categories: "self-evident" and "self-conscious." I identify prototypical > workshop methods with the former and prototypical "poetics" methods with the > latter. Both methods presume a loose sense of reflection. In poetry writing > workshop one reflects on the objet d'art before them in order to craft a > better one, one that is as "good" as it can be, one that "works for me." But > one is also the "author" of said object, if not necessarily (though > frequently) the subject of it as well. In this situation, one relies on > critical values, one's own (i.e., "finding one's voice"), but always by > reference to two things which must articulate and maintain those values, the > poem in question (aka, "said object") and the "master" (aka, workshop leader). > My contention is that the master's task, identifying and maintaining these > values is sometimes imposing (too much in reference to their own arbitrary > values) and sometimes simply impossible (how do you maintain critical values > in a workshop situation when those values are yet to be articulated?). > ... > It seems to me the space (generic, I suppose) opened up by the notion of > "poetics" ... goes beyond > the work as an object and considers the processes of composition and > appreciation. In that sense, it is self-reflective (those considerations > themselves being processural, in flux). Now, what I didn't yet address is the > reliance on one's own critical values in either a workshop situation or one in > which some "poetics" model is assumed. The authorial process comes into > question with respect to creative (or first) causes - but if we are impatient > with the notion of creation ex nihilo, we adopt a Deleuzian model of the > passage of utterances, deflecting intentions, disputing motives in principle. > Poetics privileges the disputation of such principles - workshops may never > question them, since they are already the workshop's raison d'etre. To the > degree that an author identifies with their motives, they become culpable for > the work done on behalf of those motives - this is the level of critique I > association with workshops. on 9/14/02 6:41 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > my impression of workshop poetry is that it is > very "craft"-oriented, not nearly as invested in process as, say, St > Mark's/ New York School or other approaches that folks on this list > might be more sympathetic to (black mt, etc). at the same time, i > agree, there is an adamant refusal to examine the social/political > context in which that craft is deployed --thus the sense of > intellectual impoverishment of many workshop experiences --so there's > a peculiar reduction of process and the content of workshop meetings > to "wordsmithing." there's very little exuberance or spontaneity > --in fact in the workshops i've taught, the creative writing students > seem agonizingly wary of spontaneity (as if it would compromise their > self-image as hard workers, intense about every word, etc), and at > the same time, very little honest analytic rigor or interesting > contextual discussion, in workshop situations, in my experience. Q: Can "craft" be seen as a legitimate subset of "process"? That is, can we consider the kind of local and micro- attention to things like diction, phonetics, "traditional forms," that goes on (or *is supposed to go on*--important distinction) in mainstream workshops a valid activity *among other activities* for a "poetics"-based approach as well? Should or can "the processes of composition and appreciation" as applied in a "poetics" context include a consideration of things such as enjambment, "the image," euphony, etc., as they might have been considered by (say) a Victorian or Elizabethan or Modernist poet? Q: If we could agree that the above were the case, would we then also be able to agree that: 1) "craft," when isolated and privileged, leads to the kind of lazy reliance on notions of aesthetic self-evidence that results in (at best) arbitrary "wordsmithing" and (at worst) a bunch of people sitting around a table saying "oh, I like that," "yeah, that works for me," and then all turning their heads to see whether the Master likes it as well? 2) when "craft" is neglected and / or demonized, another kind of arbitrariness creeps into the picture--the unreflective consent among members of a "poetics"-based community to privilege things like "process," "proceduralism," etc., on a social / political / ideological level, and to avoid formulating any vocabulary for qualitative evaluation of actual words, phrases, sentences, and their combinations and recombinations? Q: Does "poetics" as a system fall prey to another kind of self-evidence trap when it assumes that an adherence to certain types of process-based method, in combination with certain political positionings, etc., self-evidently establishes artistic legitimacy? Suggestion: there are 4 modes (among others, of course) within which a pedagogical situation of poetic critique, instruction, and production is particularly liable to fall short in terms of reflectiveness: 1) Vulgar Workshoppery. Workshop members assume the self-evident presence of a qualitative standard, but offer no coherent articulation of same beyond intuitive snap judgments, individual prejudices, etc., ultimately deferring to group approval or the Master's blessing or both. Results in work whose qualitative assessment lacks any basis beyond arbitrary subjective approval or disapproval. 2) Bourgeois Wordsmithery. Workshop members have some degree of clarity about standards for the production of work, which are generally articulated in the form of prescriptive style guidelines adapted from analysis of "successful" mainstream poetry, and which are often administered by a more-or-less conscientious "expert." Work produced in this environment attains a relatively high level of "professionalism" within the aesthetic pronounced by the expert(s), but frequently lacks evidence of a broader self-reflective awareness of the function of the work in a larger social / political sphere, especially as such a function might relate to process and reception. 3) Commodified Alternativity. Workshop members adopt stylistic and procedural points of practice from avant-garde and experimental traditions, with an implicit eye toward the displacement of the dominant model of mainstream poesis and its replacement by this new improved model. Actual evaluation of praxis, however, often merely reproduces the "self-evidence" paradigm of the standard bourgeois model. What emerges is too often a renovated stylistic surface rather than a newly reflective consideration of the larger social function of a poetics in relation to publication, professionalism, canonization, etc. Think "ellipticist." 4) Party-Line Poetiks. Participants (they would reject the term "workshop members") adhere to a rigid model of procedural or counter-referential or otherwise "experimental" praxis, which is posited as a necessary mode of opposition to mainstream workshoppery of all kinds. This opposition would entail not only an attitude toward the production of the poetic object itself, but its circulation within certain closely circumscribed conditions of readership and publication, etc. Work produced in such a climate resists being inserted into standard evaluative paradigms, because the principles of construction by which it is generated are so often "random" or "chance-based" or "anti-lyrical" or otherwise prohibitive of reactions based on what the Russian Formalists and Barrett Watten would call "subjective aesthetic response." Along with this resistance, however, comes the potential for impasse: when subjective aesthetic response is scrupulously, prophylactically militated against, the result is often work that has no recognizeable function other than as meta-statement (or meta-expression, or meta-signification, or whatever), and thus has no reason to exist other than to perpetuate the mode of praxis which produces it. Circularity ensues. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with this, except when it creates an atmosphere within which one cannot even discuss the kinds of activities associated with "craft" without being associated with a retrograde uncritical mainstreamery, and (perhaps especially) when it encourages a self-congratulatory "community" of writers who praise each other's work automatically and unthinkingly, simply because it adheres to an official canon of correctness. When this happens, you basically have exactly the same situation as in Vulgar Workshoppery, just with the emphasis on process / communal alignment rather than on objects / authorial subjects. All these modes are, of course, reductive exaggerations. But I don't think they're totally unrepresentative of some things that are going on out there / in here. I think the missing element in all four nightmare scenarios is what Maria calls "exuberance" and "spontaneity," and what someone yesterday (sorry, I'm too lazy to check the archive and give proper credit) invoked when they said that if work doesn't risk sentimentality it's shit. Actually, you could probably replace "sentimentality" with just about any other word and it would be just as true. The problem, however, is how to distinguish "spontaneity" etc. from the kind of arbitrary subjective self-evidentiary wallowing that we've been talking about. What is the line between improvisation (ex nihilo or otherwise) and directionlessness? What are the respective roles of "craft" and "process" in making such a determination? And, again, can we rescue "craft" from the ignominy it has suffered via its association with retrograde workshoppery? Can "process" be rescued from its own self-legitimizing tendencies? Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:43:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: claity@DREW.EDU Subject: special MSA issue of Modernism/Modernity 9:3 Comments: To: victoria@listserv.indiana.edu, modbrits@listserv.kent.edu, h-amstdy@drew.edu, INVALID_ADDRESS@.SYNTAX-ERROR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear All The MSA extended issue of Modernism/Modernity 9:3 containing essays on Pound, Wallace Stevens, H.D., T.S. Eliot, Joyce, etc. is now on-line at Project Muse and will be mailed to subscribers next week. If you are interested in obtaining a copy, a table of contents and ordering information are below. Cassandra Laity Modernism/Modernity 9:3 (September) High/Low in an Expanded Field, Andreas Huyssen "See that Straw? That's a Straw": Anti-Semitism and Narrative Form in _Ulysses_, Neil Levi Propounding Modernist Malesness: How Pound Managed a Muse, Rachel Blau Duplessis H.D.'s Distractions: Cinematic Stasis and Lesbian Desire, Jean Gallagher The Great War at Home and Abroad: Violence and Sexuality in Eliot's "Sweeney Erect," Jewel Spears Brooker A Virile Poet in the Borderlands: Wallace Steven's Reimagining of Race and Masculinity, Eric Keenaghan Modernist Polemic: Ezra Pound v. "The Perverters of Language," Matthew Hofer Book reviews also contain Jane Marcus's review essay of _Negrophilia_, "Suptionpremises" order information: Single issue: $11.00 call toll-free with credit card: 1-800-548-1784 fax: 410-516-6968 e-mail: jlorder@jhupress.jhu.edu or write to: Modernism/Modernity Johns Hopkins University Press 2715 North Charles St. Baltimore, MD 21218-4363 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:00:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: White Box Closure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/14/02 3:21:08 PM, molly1@STANFORD.EDU writes: << Hmm...I'm wondering if this e-mail is a hoax/performance piece. There's an elaborate website here, but I can't find any of those named or of this "bureau" in a google search. Neither do I find any articles about a gallery of this name being shut down. Opinions? Molly Schwartzburg On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 Austinwja@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 9/14/02 10:26:57 AM, belladodie@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > > << Hi All, > > I don't think this has been posted here before, so here it is--scary. > > Dodie > >> > > Dodie, I don't think we've traded fours yet, but thank you for posting this. > Scary? That's an understatement. Unless there is a distinct and provable > link between gallery personnel and terrorist plotting, this is totalitarian > madness. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com > >> Thank the void! My faith is partically restored. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:35:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" bravo, kasey!... great summary of emphases... let's imagine, then, that the practices associated with the production of craft-laden works are not only about craft as such... that they point in many directions, as you suggest, up to and including what is meant by "successful" reception, community, etc.... one question, then, for workshop devotees is whether they're teaching only those who already "have what it takes" to be writers (a question that, as i've learned to my dismay, can provoke a bloodbath even when discussing something as bureacratically inert as curricula)... but if you're teaching only those who already have what it takes, what are you teaching?... answer: craft... and indeed, it's become almost de rigueur to pronounce that craft can be taught, but art cannot... i wish i had a dime for every time i've heard "but you can't teach creative writing" from creative writing instructors, an extension of the "poets are born, not made" adage, from which situation (?) the word "craft" bubbleth forth, historically speaking... as one might expect, this leaves many initiates with the distinct impression that their muse is playing hide & seek with them... some even argue that art does not require craft... so how to rescue craft from its stranglehold on the (pedagogical) intellect?... one thing for certain: there can't be an easy answer---we know this simply b/c the concept itself is buried under decades of praxis... of course we can allow "but there's such a thing as craft"---sure, why not?... we can even qualify this by admitting that art, whatever it is, doesn't always seem to require it (as above)... but the moment we open our mouths in public (this list incl.) we're unearthing a shit pile of ancient credos and convictions that constitute some folks' idea of an education, and what's more, one that might prove utterly useless, b/c yknow, you can't teach creative writing... sorry to keep this so short, but i've split my fingernail open and it's killing me... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:52:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: [spidertangle] writing poem for collarboration...please add to this Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: wryting In-Reply-To: <006c01c25c29$c23eb820$f650fea9@LakeyTeasdale> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A lot of us were scared when Timmy walked into the soda-shoppe. No-one had seen or painted her senses before So the marines, disguised as adjectives, were visibly invisible just behind the glass /* [D]n.tr&ced: succes but that was just the dust, pervasive as their spritzed little auras w h o s e ver sows a pig's ear will not make a silk purse C All we can do is keep on a keepin' on R B O NATION al MAGMA TURRET A lot of us were scared when Timmy walked into the soda-shoppe. No-one had seen or painted her senses before or even hereinafter So the marines, disguised as adjectives, were invisible from every but the naked eye There was a feeling of less and less air in the hall but we aimed for suffocation. Suddenly, the whole building started to rumble and crumble, shake, rattle and role-play. No-one warned us that the corporate lawyers who had been sufficiently consulted charging only one-third the usual overinflated fee - they were way too busy to worry about a piffling little detail having come across it time and time again: plagiarizing sources and calling it sufficiency described as a text of dentrioriginality & pursuing the wronged parties, themselves, to even dare to care if you know what I mean to say is: things are not what they appear to be ever. so long as the niteclubb furnished with mud-truffles, and the children who bake them mud-eyed, as saluted, were engaged to be wedded to the body of christ, which as you all know, is all blood. So much is so that as it happens, when she sprays the beautiful shellac on her gorgeous hair, and i began to paint my odor the color of marines (it's not the camouflage you would expect, it is a mint green), --- Lakey Teasdale wrote: > lewis lacook wrote: > > this is great!!! please continue... > yesterday, i tried an experiment---i sent three > lines > for collaboration out to three different > places...wryting, the poetics list, and > trAce===trAce > and wryting had the most respondents (as i > predicted)===and now this one's spilled to here, > which > is exactly what i wanted to see!!! > thank you all! > bliss > l > > > > A lot of us were scared when Timmy walked > into the soda-shoppe. No-one had seen or > painted her senses before > So the marines, disguised as adjectives, > were visibly invisible just behind the glass > /* [D]n.tr&ced: succes > but that was just the dust, > pervasive as their spritzed little auras > w h o s e > ver sows a pig's ear will not make a silk purse > C > All we can do is keep on a keepin' on > R > B > O > NATION al > MAGMA TURRET > > A lot of us were scared when Timmy walked > into the soda-shoppe. No-one had seen or > painted her senses before or even hereinafter > So the marines, disguised as adjectives, > were invisible from every but the naked eye > There was a feeling of less and less air in the > hall but we aimed for suffocation. > Suddenly, the whole building started to rumble > and > crumble, shake, rattle and role-play. > No-one warned us that the corporate lawyers who > had > been > sufficiently consulted charging only one-third > the > usual overinflated > fee - they were way too busy to worry about a > piffling little detail > having come across it time and time again: > plagiarizing sources and > calling it sufficiency described as a text of > dentrioriginality & pursuing > the wronged parties, themselves, to even dare > to > care if you know > what I mean > to say is: > things are not what they appear to be > ever. > ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:00:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Miekal! of course i mean this in a positive sense - i am for saying one's mind outloud without the danger of being called a "basher" by others. if someone on the list finds compelling reasons to criticised langpo or whatever po, go ahead & present your arguements - for me that's enough not to be "bashing". as for myself, i can assure you i am not a member of any conspiracy that's trying to dethrone someone. i am just speaking my mind. mikhail magazinnik In a message dated 9/14/2002 9:31:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dtv@MWT.NET writes: > > by bashing do you mean good natured ribbing & inside jokes or do you mean > private unilateral campaigns to rid the list this list world of nasty > antagonists? > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:30:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: NICK LOLORDO Subject: Re: Iowa, workshops, Amy-jissm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A few thoughts, trying to sustain this thread, particularly in its current and no doubt fragile state of attempted politesse-- Re. Jim's Addonizio poem: the lines In these nightmares, the dead feel the soft nub of the eraser lightening their bones. are either the best or the worst in the poem, right? The most Poetical, in any case [I back em myself, except for "lightening"]. But I'm also thinking about their placement relatively early in the poem: what if the poem ENDED here? Lots of folks, Altieri comes to mind, have talked about the way the 'workshop poem' gradually heightens its plain speakin' into an imagist epiphany at its climax--what's either "interesting" or "bad" about both the Adonizio poems quoted on this list is their (intentional?) refusal to follow this particular linguistic/emotional logic. In any case (responding now to Kasey), Amy Lowell's (1916) "Patterns" [ending of course with the classic outcry, an outcry that might stand high in many camp compendia, 'Christ! What are patterns for?'] reads like a textbook example of the "decay" of Imagism; that is, when you want to be an Imagist while at the same time speaking about matters you feel passionately about/demonstrating what a good person you are [here my binary is meant to refer to Dodie's powerful defense of a certain feminist poetics on the first hand & the basic critique of workshop poetics on the other]. I just taught "Patterns" and used it as a way of disussing the dead end of Imagism, gender & content, etc--it's very easy to read the poem as a conscious auto-critique of (Poundian) imagism, with its use of hard/soft binaries, etc--[of course this may all be already out there in Lowell scholarship, about which I'm lamentably ignorant..] Nick Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas Las Vegas, NV 89154 ***** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:49:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Reception at The New York Center for Book Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's my final announcement about a reception I'll be part of in New York City next week. It's a reception at the Center for Book Arts (28 West 27th Street, 3rd Floor) from 6 to 8 pm to kick off an exhibit of works by visual poets involved with the anthology Crag Hill and I edited, Writing To Be Seen, that will last until 15 November (when there will be some kind of closing performance at 7 pm). The visual poets expected at the event besides me are Kathy ernst, Scott Helmes, Joel Lipman, Bill Keith and Marilyn Rosenberg. It'd be fun to meet some of you New Yorkers I've been on threads with, whether we agreed or disagreed. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:57:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: Reception at The New York Center for Book Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What date is the opening? HZinnes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:07:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Reception at The New York Center for Book Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good grief, I thought I had the date of the reception. It's Friday, 20 September. Thanks for asking, Harriet. I hope this isn't my third message of the day! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harriet Zinnes" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Reception at The New York Center for Book Arts > What date is the opening? > > HZinnes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:26:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kasey Wrote: <1) Vulgar Workshoppery. <2) Bourgeois Wordsmithery. <3) Commodified Alternativity. <4) Party-Line Poetiks. if work doesn't risk sentimentality it's shit. Actually, you could probably replace "sentimentality" with just about any other word and it would be just as true.> I Reply: I enjoyed the satire of these 4 models. But, you know, they aren't exhaustive . . . and each, I imagine, has a positive flip side. The Dream Scenarios. Where ART is afoot, and craft is the footman. ART is the movement, rushing into risk . . . craft is the limit of movement, bringing one back. If all you allow is craft, there will be no movement. (which a group, a "workshop" say, often can find it easy to endorse, as they don't have to work very hard to see the edges of the work) If all you allow is art, say the impulse to the risk of art, then you'll only have the swirl. There will be movement, but little direction. It will diffuse. Workshops, because of their name, tend toward the limitations of craft. If, instead, they were called Experimenta (or even if they were called wefijwoif), something else would rise. Remember, a rose by any other name would no longer be a rose. Best, JG -------------- JGallaher The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:45:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Poem 2 Bin Ramke In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here's a poem by one of my favorite poets, Bin Ramke. It's from his most recent book, _Airs, Waters, Places_. What I find amazing here is how the voice, the thinking of the poem, continues toward its object while continuing to be aware of itself unfolding, how it lets its music be a part of its thought. It's a wonderful example, I believe, of a type of poetry that embraces its lyrical, human terms, while moving away from the autobiographical, narrative turns so common in poetry today. --JG Livery of Seisin "the delivery of property into the corporal possession of a person: in the case of a house, by giving him the ring, latch, or key of the door; in the case of land, by delivering him a twig, a piece of turf, or the like" -- OED Of touch, the annoyance That if I touch you you Touch me--the affront it is and Its reciprocal nature and it is The basis of the lighter Perversions, frottage, for instance which is The secret joy of public Touching it is, on a bus To transport to touch the whole self There is no stopping It, if (there is no defense) I touch you you touch me If I touch (if not you) The glamour of the stars Oh the stars (famously beyond reach) That such light touches The eyes the retina, parts of the skin The inevitable body (where we live no matter) And too The warm the sun striking out But the stars softly at night (impossibly by day) That we touch the stars And that any light- Emitting body (heat, and any radiation) Is infinite in size or will be, Caressing the universe At a hundred eighty-six thousand Miles per second O love o sacred. To change, To hold the house in your hand, the subject, To expand infinitely to the end Too terrible to think upon Each man's life is but a breath (Psalm 39) A touch A touching most intimate, The breath a column still attached To the warm, wet lung, every leering man knows What he's doing, dreary, Perpendicular sounds flying past Touch, extensive touch of someone's tongue, Expensive. O do talk less, give us Room, give us air dry and drifting Flowers inventing Themselves on the tips Of trees, reach out Nature reaches Trees reach out like Stars light their touch And candor, all their own, their touch. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:18:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: request for info on The Conversions In-Reply-To: <74.22ea394f.2ab49351@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I don't have a lot to offer here, but it should be clarified that The Conversions was published in I think 1961, more than a decade before Mathews joined Oulipo in 1973 (at the invitation of Georges Perec). HM says somewhere that he knew nothing at all about Oulipo before the early 70s, and so would not have been employing specifically Oulipian techniques in The Conversions or The Sinking of Odradek Stadium. (The Oulipo itself was only just getting started when The Conversions came out.) But HM did know the work of Raymond Roussel, to which Ashbery introduced him, and claims that Roussel's novels and How I Wrote Certain of My Books were the impetus that convinced him he could write fiction. (Before this he'd focused on poetry and, earlier still, music.) So at this point it's a case of common influences. It was through The Conversions, though, that Perec first encountered HM's work, and greeted him enthusiastically as a sort of Oulipian avant la lettre. I don't have references for the foregoing at hand, but can post them if Laird or anybody else is interested. I myself would be happy to hear whether there's a good sustained analysis of the formal construction of the novel out there. And more specifically, does anybody have a solution to the novelist's winning speech in the contest with the gypsy king? Beat my head against the wall trying to solve that one! Best, Damian On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:27:45 EDT Brenda Coultas wrote: > HI All, > This is a request I'm passing on for Laird Hunt: > "I wonder if anyone out there could direct me to (or provide me with) info on > The > > Conversions by Harry Matthews. I am specifically interested in the Oulipian > > techniques employed in it. The Oulipo Compendium refers to it as partially > > Oulipian, but doesn't elaborate (or if it does I couldn't find where). Any > > info would be very much appreciated. It's a novel I love but have never, > > until now, had to teach. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Laird Hunt > > (Lairdhunt@aol.com)" > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:28:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Reception at The New York Center for Book Arts In-Reply-To: <19d.8a89513.2ab50ae6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >What date is the opening? > >HZinnes Of what? GBowering -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 00:40:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Beck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kinda off-topic, but I recommend listers check out Beck's latest cd, streaming at beck.com. If you sign up for a Beck e-mailing list (you could always block it later) you can sample all of the songs from his latest, SEA CHANGE, which will appeal even to folks who don't normally like his stuff. Very twangy, maudlin, great deep voice. Worth checking out. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:13:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: vag5.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII vag5.mov the shapes engorged - the tumor spewed - it emanated from the vaginal area - it emanated from the prostate - it emanated from the breast - the lungs - the mouth - sores across labia and scrotum - or they distended - the swellings far too painful - beyond pleasure the pain - the waves of murmurs - pain of murmurs - coagulations of bullets and lozenges - shuddering and swollen - protruding and parasitic emanations - within the scent of death - within the scent of slow lozenge life - slow bullet life - the tumescence of life - the pulling down of everything pure in life - shapes - distortions - spewed tumor - labial death, towards turned images - it emanated from the vaginal area - it emanated from the prostate - it emanated from the breast - the lungs - the mouth - or they distended - the swellings far too painful - beyond pleasure the pain - pain of murmurs - distortions in the movement of the lozenges - coagulations of bullets and lozenges - shuddering and swollen - protruding and parasitic emanations - within the scent of slow lozenge life - slow bullet life - stuttering within and stuttering without - the tumescence of life - the pulling down of everything pure in life - it swelled or it was veering - it swelled or it was veering - the images turned towards death, labial distortions, dark shapes - emanating, tumors, cancers, skin stretched bursting - === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 04:25:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: moving around on the net Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT since listing on the net has been a topic recently here and there are i think people from all of the organiztions this concerns, I have a question (actually, I'll cc poetics also): is there any effort to coordinate listings? I started looking at my listings at ELO and discovered that my "My Gut" stamps were not found. it turns out that apparently ranrun has been made a part of trace? tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:40:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Humor Theory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aldon, you've fallen into my Winterwear pile, and this Fall is either coming in early or I'm anemic. The small press mags I wear between an undershirt and one of my many lumberjack sweaters. I figure the next time they bust me, I'll have something to read while waiting for the missus to bail me out. (I do hope she doesnt use that line again about not having married me to do this distasteful biz.) Yrs, Unchained Felony. -----Original Message----- From: Aldon Nielsen To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Humor Theory >> >> >>I've fallen under a pile of jerseys, socks and small press magazines in David >>Bromige's house and I can't get up. Send assistance! > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >"The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It >declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." > Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) > >Aldon Lynn Nielsen >George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >Department of English >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:11:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 31, at least--not 25....db -----Original Message----- From: Jim Behrle To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, September 13, 2002 8:58 AM >I would like to further discuss one of the things I posted yesterday. Why >is divisiveness important to innovative poetry? There have been many posts >dedicated to bashing Language Poetry, which turns 25 this year. Is it >crucial to continually, perpetually skirmish between movements of poetries, >and if so, how do poets writing now benefit from these types of hostilities? > Why isn't "Oh, you know, they do they're thing and I do my thing" an OK >response? Do our categories completely define what we're up to, and if so, >what are the categories that younger generations of poets fall into? Just >subsequent generations of movements that have already come? > >I would call for more eclecticism and less cliquishness. We applaud >well-rounded readers in almost every other genre, why should poetry be so >very different? Good poetry is good poetry. And even if it isn't good >poetry, shouldn't something be said for giving people's work a chance >instead of dismissing it immediately without a read? Ought I be able to >read Laure-Anne Bosselaar, Sparrow, Jim Brodey, Richard Hell, Donald Hall, >Lyn Hejinian and Lucie Brock-Broido in the same night without there being a >sense that something is wrong with me? I own ABBA and Clash records, they >get along OK. At what point do our aesthetics make us ascetic readers? > >--Jim Behrle > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: whtie box In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" so, can anyone tell us definitively if this is a hoax or not? w/o having visited the website i think it might be, cuz wouldn't homeland security have a gov suffix rather than an org? i'm a bit embarrassed because i sent out the msg to many concerned friends, and don't want to be an alarmist, much as i appreciate the actual need for alarm in this time. -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:23:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Humor Theory In-Reply-To: <047b01c25c7a$6a71bec0$8d96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Once at Bromige's place I found myself trapped in his underwear drawer, and while there I had the time to notice that some of the items were things I found to be missing after one of Bromige's visits to my place. But one's main experience of being stuck in Bromige's underwear drawer is a renewed appreciation for the first line of Philip Lamantia's poem "Wilderness Sacred Wilderness": "It's cozy to be a poet in a bed, on a copse, knoll, in a room" >Aldon, you've fallen into my Winterwear pile, and this Fall is either coming >in early or I'm anemic. The small press mags I wear between an undershirt >and one of my many lumberjack sweaters. I figure the next time they bust me, >I'll have something to read while waiting for the missus to bail me out. (I >do hope she doesnt use that line again about not having married me to do >this distasteful biz.) Yrs, Unchained Felony. >-----Original Message----- >From: Aldon Nielsen >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:37 AM >Subject: Humor Theory > > >>> >>> >>>I've fallen under a pile of jerseys, socks and small press magazines in >David >>>Bromige's house and I can't get up. Send assistance! >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>"The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It >>declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." >> Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) >> >>Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>Department of English >>The Pennsylvania State University > >116 Burrowes > >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > >(814) 865-0091 > > -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:49:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: poor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII poor i've got a pixel missing on this machine, it's always on, it's always blue - another's always white - double-star system - dear god - you look up - you're always there in the stars - you know you're saving everyone - you know there's reason for all this evil in the world - i'm your secret friend - i can't get enough of you - you enter my very soul - they're leaping now from tall buildings - they're burning in fires on the ground - they're hanging from the trees - they're divided among others - they can't think very well - dear god - you must save us - all the hurting people - people fighting and starving - people killing and being killed - so many sick and dying people - so many animals too and plants too - the screen stares at me, punctured or fissured; the screen carries its own after- effects, nimbus and aureole of light - you write on blue against black, black against gray, yellow against blue - the colors of the troposphere - sun glaring at all of us - it doesn't know any better - dear god, please do hide the sun, it is so troublesome for so many of your lowly creatures, it casts light where there is none, nothing remains of the light, shadows am too bright, the glare too dark, in the corners many eyes see, many eyes are blinded - may the sky welcome us - even just against my skin i can hear them - the computer next to me breathing heavily - producing animations of untoward, ungodly things - things that everyone desires - there's a raging storm outside - lasting the batteries - until the frame - until the last frame - is done, completed - the world going by at twelve frames a second - you can't imagine - you can't see - you wouldn't believe - dear god, complementary colors burning into me, i can't speak to you any more like this, my head is reeling, you must ascend to us - oh, nothing?, what could possibly be meant - the passage - eternal writing - the murmuring growing louder - the sounds, furious - Karl loved Gertrud - he wove his phenomenology around her - she was his star - the indescribable Cipher of engagement for the two of them - writing them into the ground - at the limits - dear god, please help Karl and Gertrud - is it always too late - is sanction the very last thing before the eyes close - we are, we are losing, worlds - too many wounded - the battle can't go on much longer - both machines running fans at full-tilt - it isn't enough - the animation slowing - almost to a halt - i'd settle for grays - zig-zags across the eyes - dear god, do please listen, i will not thank you, i will never thank you, you have never done enough, you have never even started - all the animals burned and buried - the fury of humans, their slaughter - unsleeping - the screen almost illegible - double-time fans - furious productions - something freezes, crashes, topples, all those poor people leaping from the building - == ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:11:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kari Edwards Subject: t b cuprite with rest ringers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable t b cuprite with rest ringers the price tag was missing, something went, curtailed, gone, had never=20 been, turned around and didn't see, the bread box was empty, something=20= like, chased the pieces down the street into a raging continuum, every=20= last one. prelashed prices, every item must go to places, newer and=20 better to be replaced by extra bleeding items, to be replaced by.=20 didn't leave a return address, packed their bags. its that=20 them-us-both-of-them the entire down the block across the tracks from=20 the misdirection, its them-me-you-us-that-all-of-them us both-of-them=20 who said to the extent of- =93why didn't you.=94 then one of them said = good=20 bye. been nice, over there is one more, (pick one of the above). in=20 the sewer, on the streets, in the battle over peptide autographs,=20 swashbuckling drag kings or queens, the duke and duchess scenarios.=20 some, replaced by newer better registered, cataloged with proper=20 retrofitted more to come later. rockets red glare. sometimes I will=20 give have given, will be piled on top - disaster relief behaviors at=20 the dinner table . . . maybe, if I could if I said, if I, if I would I=20= said I would. the periodic table. something was there with its clip-on=20= plastic indicators, those loop hole disinfectants. I got it, maybe it=20= is it, it, you us that them both of us, a long list of grade =93A,=94 B, = C,=20 one million and seventy five longing(s) or desires or something missing=20= that could, that in effect. thousands stood, others waited. all I have=20= is, than nothing more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:18:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: Rob Fitterman's [R E A D I N G ] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable housepress is please to announce the publication of: [ R E A D I N G ] by Rob Fitterman published in an edition of 60 handbound and numbered copies. $5.00 each. =20 Robert Fitterman grew up in a little suburban house in St. Louis that = featured zoysia grass in the front yard and a spectactular variety of = local birds in the back. The first 2 books of his long poem METROPOLIS = have been recently published: Metropolis 1-15 (Sun & Moon Press) and = Metropolis 16-29 (Coach House Books). He has lived in NYC for the past = 20 years. He lives in a tall building with poet Kim Rosenfield and = their daughter Coco. for more information, or to order copies, contact derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca derek beaulieu 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m1a5 derek@housepress.ca www.housepress.ca 403-234-0336 (p) 403-282-2229 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:25:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2 publications from Writers Forum launched at the workshop yesterday by performance Meadows (2nd ed) by Lawrence Upton, ISBN 1 84254 070 1; B6; 24pp. There were problems with the first edition (Sep 2000), with punctuation and layout. Not fundamental problems and the edition was allowed to sell out. That happened in August and this edition makes the corrections. Stem Harvest Nature Poems by M J Weller; ISBN 1 84254 069 8; A4; 20pp Linear and vispo Both £2 + postage I think ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:59:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: The State of The List Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for your thought-provoking post and your kind words about my work. Since I am very short on time right now I won't be able to respond to all your questions or comments, but I am very much looking forward to doing so at a later time. But I do want to say something about anxiety and the list and some related issues. Without going into too much detail about specific people and why they were excluded from the list (as I remember it I wasn't participating or very active on it for much of the time when all this was going on) I can say how I felt and feel about the issue of exclusion. As much as I passionately believe in and support freedom of speech, I really don't like bullies. As I understand it, this list is made available through resources at SUNY Buffalo through the work of Charles Bernstein. For a time a number of people took advantage of the open policy of this list to personally attack Charles and the so-called Language Poets. I view this as a kind of testing and a call for limits. The limits were then applied, taking the form of excluding certain bullying people from the list. My experience is that bullies never admit that they are bullies. They usually resort to justifying their behavior according to some sort of politics or philosophical or theological system or whatever. There comes a time when the victims of such bullying have had enough and will have to respond with decisive firmness. Now on to the issue of anxiety. When bullies-who are often incredibly anxious people themselves- repeatedly push other people around this leads to anxiety and other kinds of suffering for the recipients of the bullying and for the witnesses of the bullying. The recipients and the witnesses now have a choice. If they don't wish to be passive like sheep they will stand up to the bullies, say they have had enough and stop them. Now, this process goes for the world outside this list as well as this list. Anxiety has many effects, and people will do a lot of things to avoid anxiety and to end anxiety. These things are inconsistent and not the same for everybody. One way to deal with anxiety-which also ordinarily involves much ambivalence- is to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer to all questions or conflicts. Some people use politics this way, theology this way, philosophy this way, aesthetics this way, psychology this way. It works like this. Experience anxiety and conflict, plug in the political answer. For some people (and I know many such people, as does everyone) being tough and strong and fair means being rigidly consistent about their philosophy or politics or whatever in the face of any conflict or disagreement. The result is radically reducing their own anxiety, usually at the cost of radically raising a lot of other people's anxiety. Many such people are unbelievably obsessive-compulsive providing the illusion they are courageously consistent in the face of all opposition. But these people-who can be geniuses, including criminal geniuses- are not being mainly guided by their so-called philosophies or politics but by their desire to push other people around. I personally have had it with such people whether they are on this list or anywhere in the world. The big question is, how do you identify if someone is such a person. In real life, and this is real life, this happens when enough people have had enough of such a person. Now, sometimes it does happen that two such people have had enough of each other. This might be the most dangerous situation of all. Maybe we have such a situation with George Bush versus Saddam Hussein, maybe not. Which one is more of a bully? Do the rest of us have to make sure the fight does not kill us all? Maybe it is the same thing with this list. Can we trust that the people (in the world, on the list) will have a fair fight? Personally, I don't think so. I think the world has to curb Saddam Hussein's fascist, sadistic tendencies, but the world has to watch out for the the same tendencies in Mr. Bush and the governments of the United States and other rightward leaning, militaristic countries. Assertion can be very effective, and my feeling right now is that the world is teetering dangerously on the edge of a nuclear disaster. But even this cannot be an excuse for letting bullies run the show. Yes, given the right situation, anybody, and any group, can terrorize. But my own feeling is that you can bully some of the people some of the time, but you can't bully all of the people all of the time, on the list, or anywhere else. > > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:45:06 +1200 > From: "richard.tylr" > Subject: Re: The State of The List > > Nick. I saw some of your correspondence with Ramon Qureshi and your patience > and concern and interest in his correspondence: but I felt that you "dodged" > the question of political commitment. I agree re the problem of the rhetoric > etc that arises. But some anger and some rhetoric is a sign of caring about > an issue: and at certain historical times we have to declare where we stand. > Poets are "the unacknowledged legislators of mankind" (the witnesses I feel) > but there comes a time - now when I say " I am opposed to the US > military-state complex. I'm certain Hussein has minimal nuclear capacity. > Even if he had thousnbad of nukes then why dnt the US let Iraqi inspectors > into the US? The US has weapons of mass destruction. Its leader is highly > fundamentally religious.. I'm pretty certain (cant prove it no one can prove > or dispove becuase the CIA etc control the information and dominate the > media) that Bush or his mates organised S11. Pilger writes that about 5000 > people are dying daily in Iraq becuase of your country's (basically illegal > and bullying embargo). Ten years ago the literacy was high and there was a > good economy in Iraq (the US rearrmed Saddam Hussein)....My dentist last > year did brilliant work SHE was from Iraq. Very gentle and concerned and > skillful. > I see that Kent Johnson was "kicked off" th List because he wrote and > essay saying: "Is Charles Bernstein a Political Poet" ...was this hubris by > the major Langpo Guru in reaction to kent's statements? What's going on? I > think that Johnson etal were critiquing US policy of bombing Bosnia and so > on. Are freedom's beeing shut down everywhere including the on this List? > When are the Langpos going to free themselves of wish wash: get > real.....that's to say, a "non-political" (nothing is truly I think,ever..or > very rarely are things so) of the politics in certain times is good - > implicated in the languagae questions and so on - but at some point: when > people's lives are at stake.. we have to get political. This can be > frightening. I remember going onto the freezing works here in the 70s and > showing photographs of the terrrible damage done by US bombs (these were > photogrpahs from British doctors working in the North) now these guys > argued: they all had knives. But I raised these questions. I also argued > with rugby players in 1981 to their faces (re te Springbok Tour rugby toour > of NZ) - sure I was scared at times - but I felt at certain times one has to > act...now I'm not trying to be holier than thou: for a start when I was > battened in the face by the cops in 1981 (it was like a civil war and the > protesters used terrorists" tactics incluodng one guy who flew a plane over > Eden Park when a game was in progress droping flour bombs: and previous to > that there was another pilot who looked like he was going to fly his plane > into a stadium, engineers were secretly trying to assemble surface-to air > missiles to blow the passenger jets with the Springboks in tem (and other > collaterals who cared?) out of the air, and there were plans to assasinate > them ( of course these were rejected by the leadership at the time but it > shows the "civil war" atmosphere that prevailed then). I was filled with > about 25 valium tablets and still scared as hell when we marched against teh > cops and te rugby supportters ina anattempt to stop the last game....But > (more recently) I had in fact made a decision to "ivory tower" myself on > about the 9th of September last year when things changed. A big part of me > wants to "retreat" ... once my vision poetry was ( something like John > Ashbery's) of a kind of art that was/is sui generis: I still believe that > I mean that that is one kind of quite valid poetry practice). > > It's true I wasnt anywhere near the towers or NYso its "easy" in a sense for > me: I can understand the fear of Americans and especially New Yorkers: and > the outrage...but we cant all of us stay "outraged"...we need to act, to > speak. > > I'm not attacking you or anyone I just want to express some things here: I > felt that your posts around the time of S 11 were very intelligent and compa > ssionate: a lot of mine were semi-crazed and I wasnt anywhere near NY (I'm > of course in Auckland, New Zealand)....but question marks still hang around > re the intersection of politics and poetry: over here John Geraets and > Leigh Davis (who openly "loves " capitalism) seem to want to avoid the > political realities. Davis enbraces exploitation of the working class and is > on a vast income while posing as one of the "avant garde" and Geraets is > into some obscure French theoretical fairyland. I wish politics would go > away. But I have not read Johnson's essay but the title puts question marks > up there hanging oer this List and the state of the world. What is the USE > of poetry? Was the nihilistic side or aspect Auden right? (for example) > (dont worry I've had a look down into Hades .... ) > > Sure people might be anxious: but of what? The list is ok as long as there's > debate - even abusive debate. That's what human's do. But what were we /you > I supposed to be anxious about? The invented terrorists or the real ones: > the US state military complex and the clamping down on political freedoms > and human rights in the Western nations or some supposed terrorists - none > of whom have been decisivelly identified (except for a whelter of reports > and threats most of which is bullshit to keep everone thinnking there's a > need for war - anned to KILL PEOPLE ...MORE PEOPLE) - many so-called are > either patsies or work for the CIA I reckon). the eternally recurring cycle > of bombing by the British (grovelling in the wake of he US, with Australia > and NZ also grovelling as usual) and the US.The lies about the Taliban, the > attacks on Muslims who come from an ancient and great culture and great > nations, the mess the military has made of Afghanistan, and so on....where > do you stand? Where do other's stand. there's and ominous (scared?) > silence.... Bush has threatened to use nuclear weapons for chrissakes... > > I wouldnt be wasting time shoring these brickbats in public if Ididnt think > highly of your poetry and thinking. > > Richard Taylor > > ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 23:01:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: from "Key Bridge" 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from "Key Bridge" Miss: loss lack the location added (as it would in the 16th all loss and gain is location miss: as in place (like in dodgeball (the little miss missing the city Time is the effect of being in one place as opposed to another (as if a valley is opposed to a ridge (ha how one could miss the city when Location supposed opposition the lack of one and the need of another idea's action concentric circles slim down the bullseye to somewhere near Pennsylvania -- She never knew the umbrellas could grip her so -- oh, love -- their level, their canopy, they're madness ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:58:34 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: The State of The List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick. You're such a thoughtfull person! Monsieur Brink got very angry but you stay calm and explain things: that's what I like about your posts and the one's to Qureshi and also around the time of S11. I, like you, was not on the list at the time of the "harrangues" alleged to have taken place and also there has been the big controversy re Langpo etc and "selling out"...I agree with you re bullying: I would urge you to read "The New Rulers of the World" by John Pilger...sure he's almost "evangelistic" but you would see that the major bullies are the US, Israel,Britain etc I dont think it can only be a personal thing (although the Bush family know the Bin Ladens and it could be) Hitler was a bully who was let to go and both Bush and Saddam Hussein have to be watched: but then you have to concur with increased destruction of Iraq and more deaths will happen if Bush goes ahead with his attack on Iraq - the destruction done (or even what he could conceivably do) by Hussein is far less than that perpetrated on Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia and and so on. I cant agree to an attack on Iraq unless it is seen that the whole world have an equal imput into the UN and also all the people of the United States (its wrong that a President can act without approval)....but if I go on I'll start bullying and that is no way to settle differences. Re the List and anxiety I agree: or at least I agree that some people have a lot of anxiety about things (so much) that they become authoritarian: so we see that in various proportions everywhere: in all organisations, workplaces and there are the obvious examples in politics: of course there is no "one way"...we humans are to complex for that. If they were atacking Charles Bernstein etal without good arguments then we are all left baffled: my point being I couldnt find the attacks (except I remember one which was a bit unfair about a reading): rather than get angry it is better to work on those things we think need improving. I see the world as like a Huge List (i dont separate poetry politics any discipline thhey all interact for me) but the Iraqis for example seem to be more open to discussion and negotiation than the US Government. The Israelis and the US I see as unbending and dangerous (especially as the Israelis are fond of "pre-emptive strikes" and their leader authorised massacres,[ AND they have nukes] - his record is worse than Saddam Hussein's - who I see as just a rather authoritarian (fairly secular ) leader - who for a long time was backed by the US. but relatively benign. I repeat though: the people most anxious, those who will suffer the most are the common people in Iraq who had nothhing to do with anything. We can assuage anxiety by acting against tryranny and half-crazed dynasties such as the Bush Admin. (Amd any other dictatorships) Attacks or disagreements dont or shouldnt I feel imply an attack on the individual addressed. Re Langpo I love it but I also see the value of a lot of "mainstream" (its not always so clear where the divisions are). Alan Loney Of Auckland who casts himself as an outsider and a (language poet? not sure certainly very influenced by Olson at least) is most power full where he is (more or less "mainstream" (Scott hamilton if he gets back on (off for technical reasons!) on can talk about his (Aan's) latest book about a train disastor which involves some personal issues and of course is "language orientated" as well))...and in your book (the latest one I think) I like some of the clarity (I also like complexity and "magic" and so on) but you also draw attention to the fact that this book, (your's) is a text, etc and without doing a complex analysis, some of these things are "lyrical" (as Qureshi picked up): For those who feel depression or anxiety (and i have suffered from it in the past) I recommend Dr Wayne Dyer's books (deceptively "simplistic") in fact he talks about authoritarianism in his book "The Sky's the Limit (I agree some of the titles of these books are a bit of a worry!) in much the same terms you have outlined. But I used especially his book "Your Erroneous Zones" when my mother was very ill and I was stuck at home and anxious about cash etc to pull myself from depression and anxiety by acting on it. By thinking as positively as possible:by being open: by thinking of myself and others. That's where I think revolutions go wrong: they negelct subtle psychological and cultural questions...although I think that both Lenin and Mao Tse Tung were groping toward these things (but I dont embrace any partcicular ideology, I dont like political parties, any of them)...and/but we now have to deal with the now. And we need to show tolerance and compassion and the kind of kindness and consideration and real thoughtfulness that you exhibit. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Piombino" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 3:59 AM Subject: The State of The List > Thanks for your thought-provoking post and your kind words about my work. > Since I am very short on time right now I won't be able to respond to all > your questions or comments, but I am very much looking forward to doing so > at a later time. But I do want to say something about anxiety and the list > and some related issues. Without going into too much detail about specific > people and why they were excluded from the list (as I remember it I wasn't > participating or very active on it for much of the time when all this was > going on) I can say how I felt and feel about the issue of exclusion. As > much as I passionately believe in and support freedom of speech, I really > don't like bullies. As I understand it, this list is made available through > resources at SUNY Buffalo through the work of Charles Bernstein. For a time > a number of people took advantage of the open policy of this list to > personally attack Charles and the so-called Language Poets. > I view this as a kind of testing and a call for limits. The limits were then > applied, taking the form of excluding certain bullying people from the list. > My experience is that bullies never admit that they are bullies. They > usually resort to justifying their behavior according to some sort of > politics or philosophical or theological system or whatever. There comes a > time when the victims of such bullying have had enough and will have to > respond with decisive firmness. Now on to the issue of anxiety. When > bullies-who are often incredibly anxious people themselves- repeatedly push > other people around this leads to anxiety and other kinds of suffering for > the recipients of the bullying and for the witnesses of the bullying. The > recipients and the witnesses now have a choice. If they don't wish to be > passive like sheep they will stand up to the bullies, say they have had > enough and stop them. Now, this process goes for the world outside this list > as well as this list. Anxiety has many effects, and people will do a lot of > things to avoid anxiety and to end anxiety. These things are inconsistent > and not the same for everybody. One way to deal with anxiety-which also > ordinarily involves much ambivalence- is to come up with a one-size-fits-all > answer to all questions or conflicts. Some people use politics this way, > theology this way, philosophy this way, aesthetics this way, psychology this > way. It works like this. Experience anxiety and conflict, plug in the > political answer. For some people (and I know many such people, as does > everyone) being tough and strong and fair means being rigidly consistent > about their philosophy or politics or whatever in the face of any conflict > or disagreement. The result is radically reducing their own anxiety, usually > at the cost of radically raising a lot of other people's anxiety. Many such > people are unbelievably obsessive-compulsive providing the illusion they are > courageously consistent in the face of all opposition. But these people-who > can be geniuses, including criminal geniuses- are not being mainly guided by > their so-called philosophies or politics but by their desire to push other > people around. I personally have had it with such people whether they are on > this list or anywhere in the world. The big question is, how do you identify > if someone is such a person. In real life, and this is real life, this > happens when enough people have had enough of such a person. Now, sometimes > it does happen that two such people have had enough of each other. This > might be the most dangerous situation of all. Maybe we have such a situation > with George Bush versus Saddam Hussein, maybe not. Which one is more of a > bully? Do the rest of us have to make sure the fight does not kill us all? > Maybe it is the same thing with this list. Can we trust that the people (in > the world, on the list) will have a fair fight? Personally, I don't think > so. I think the world has to curb Saddam Hussein's fascist, sadistic > tendencies, but the world has to watch out for the the same tendencies in > Mr. Bush and the governments of the United States and other rightward > leaning, militaristic countries. Assertion can be very effective, and my > feeling right now is that the world is teetering dangerously on the edge of > a nuclear disaster. But even this cannot be an excuse for letting bullies > run the show. Yes, given the right situation, anybody, and any group, can > terrorize. But my own feeling is that you can bully some of the people some > of the time, but you can't bully all of the people all of the time, on the > list, or anywhere else. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:13:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Possible Virus Risk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many times when I'm receiving e-mail, my Norton Anti-Virus software = cautions me that I have an infected file, W32.Klex@mm. I don't know what = this is, but it always seems to come when I'm receiving a number of = posts from the Poetics List. Has anybody else had this problem? Does = anybody now what to do about it, other than to keep our anti-virus = software up to date? Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:18:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Possible Virus Risk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.removal.too l.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vernon Frazer" To: Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: Possible Virus Risk Many times when I'm receiving e-mail, my Norton Anti-Virus software cautions me that I have an infected file, W32.Klex@mm. I don't know what this is, but it always seems to come when I'm receiving a number of posts from the Poetics List. Has anybody else had this problem? Does anybody now what to do about it, other than to keep our anti-virus software up to date? Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:56:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: 21st-Century Poetics October Event: please distribute Comments: To: Julie Carr Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello and welcome to fall. The 21st-Century Poetics Working Group is happy to announce our first event of the season: readings and a colloquium featuring Beth Anderson and Ange Mlinko Friday, October 11 6:30 p.m. potluck, 8 p.m. readings 900 Bancroft Way Beth and Ange will read from their work and address issues surrounding travel writing and vertigo. Beth Anderson is the author of The Habitable World (Instance Press, 2001) and four chapbooks, including The Impending Collision and Hazard. Her poems have appeared or are forthcoming in The Germ, Barrow Street, Hanging Loose, and other journals and in An Anthology of New (American) Poets (Talisman House, 1998). The Habitable World was a finalist manuscript for the National Poetry Series and the Walt Whitman Award. Anderson is also an editor of Subpress, a cooperative small press publisher of poetry. Ange Mlinko's first book of poems was Matinees (Zoland Books, 1999) and her second one is in progress. She was born in Philadelphia and has lived and engaged in alternative poetry scenes in Boston, Providence, and New York City. In 1999 she lived and taught a poetry workshop in the Kingdom of Morocco. She edited The Poetry Project Newsletter from 2000-2002. 21st-Century Poetics thanks the Townsend Center and the Department of English for their support. But participants are asked to help buttress our indie-ness by bringing food or drink; we would also be grateful for help with setup or cleanup from those who are able. For further information, or to be placed on our mailing list, please contact Carrjuli@aol.com or jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:32:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: NEW CODE EVERY MORNING Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One danger of skin will be that it harden to ceramics. Then glaze, like all erotica, will seem terminal. Lakey Teasdale spinning one on the wheel, which will be electric; eyes the same color as morning drenching everything, even my balls as I wake up, swallow three caps of gingko saint john's, swallow coffee and a cigarette as if I had religion foaming at the mouth between us. With Mez watching my genes re-code, I wanted water to cling to the railing again like stalagtite mirrors, inverting seeing gray in the sky means it's aged just this much. I sat down forcefully, examining the prose as if it too were a fungus beneath my nails. On days like that I would thank God for the vegetative life, but God never says you're welcome; she just snores on and on; and I rise against her dreams, the whole house drowned to the rictus of a pinprick; I just mow through the dark with arms in search of coffee. Indeed, Lawrence Upton vocalizes. Seismic pentameter, she moans, the syringe halfway through her spine, singing like night skidding to closure on the runway drenched with morning colors, an artificiality of typoo that disenthralls gauge set to weigh in at whatever breath thickens on the windows; winter, like John M. Bennett's spacious bathroom, has spurs all up and down the eyelets of the shower curtain. This serves to protect the subjunctive from caverns spanning days of sitting and reading the Koran, searching for fresh-mown coffee in the dark of blood-words on Old Testament rice-paper, good for rolling through with all the drunkenness of now fully up, not dressed but seeking August Highland; Alan Sondheim mimics Alan Sondheim, I tell Nikuko, who Julu-foams between us like spirituality without doctrine. I staggered all through the lightning house trying on each beauty I crossed. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:32:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE CRISIS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii All I remember is the fragment, the box springs of the head. The weather was broken and lying in several sequences of looped man- action (javelin throw, drunken vomiting, coitus) on my desk. I picked up the pieces and moved on. You must have bought new furniture while I slept. You must have summed up the crisis in the Middle East. The neighbors like balloons slide quietly across the parking lot; it's early yet, you must have damaged the room beyond repair as I slept. Calling tech support, the beautiful elderly hunched over the slowness of their day pinch out of my scowl a smile that unravels like threads on a list of things to do dirtier next time around. I think: will this be us? And would be pleased were it so: an old couple holding hands across airplane debris that bite deeply into the ground, finding everywhere and allowing to gush the watertable on which I've re- assembled the weather, creative and tortured little prick that I am, unable to leave well enough alone. All I remember is the fragrance, the glancing of teeth on moaning flesh, and dusks squiting laterally from your eyes as you sat on me. You must have corrected the vacancy in my annual report. I exaggerated the profit, but still feel good about the crisis in the Middle East. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Award Winning Poetry In-Reply-To: <002001c25d38$256430b0$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DAVOREN HANNA POETRY COMPETITION 2002 WINNERS The results of the Davoren Hanna Poetry Competition 2002 have been announced. Judged by Billy Collins and Carol Ann Duffy, the winners were: 1st prize ($5000) 'Miniatures' by Kim Addonizio (US) 2nd Prize ($2000) 'Regarding Water' by Jim McGonigle (Scotland) 3rd prize ($1000) 'All Day I Have Been Afraid' by Jeff Watt (US) Poems are available to read at: http://www.eason.ie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:45:53 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: THE CRISIS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lewis. I like these: interesting structure and the language is flowing and inventive. Richard taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:32 PM Subject: THE CRISIS > All I remember is the fragment, the box springs of the > head. The > weather was broken and lying in several sequences of > looped man- > action (javelin throw, drunken vomiting, coitus) on my > desk. I > picked up the pieces and moved on. You must have > bought new > furniture while I slept. You must have summed up the > crisis in > the Middle East. The neighbors like balloons slide > quietly across > the parking lot; it's early yet, you must have > damaged the room > beyond repair as I slept. Calling tech support, the > beautiful > elderly hunched over the slowness of their day pinch > out of my > scowl a smile that unravels like threads on a list of > things to > do dirtier next time around. I think: will this be us? > And would > be pleased were it so: an old couple holding hands > across > airplane debris that bite deeply into the ground, > finding > everywhere and allowing to gush the watertable on > which I've re- > assembled the weather, creative and tortured little > prick that I > am, unable to leave well enough alone. All I remember > is the > fragrance, the glancing of teeth on moaning flesh, and > dusks > squiting laterally from your eyes as you sat on me. > You must have > corrected the vacancy in my annual report. I > exaggerated the > profit, but still feel good about the crisis in the > Middle East. > > ===== > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: sentimentality for Bob Grumman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Here's a thought for everybody to explode over: any poem that doesn't > greatly risk sentimentality is crap. I thought of you, Bob, last night while I was driving to Blockbuster and the following Neil Diamond song came on the radio. (I often listen to "great soft hits--where the classics never go out of style.") "Can You Feel The Love Tonight" There's a calm surrender To the rush of day When the heat of the rolling world Can be turned away An enchanted moment And it sees me through It's enough for this restless warrior Just to be with you And can you feel the love tonight? It is where we are It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer That we got this far Can you feel the love tonight How it's laid to rest? It's enough to make kings and vagabonds Believe the very best There's a time for everyone If they only learn That the twisting kaleidoscope Moves us all in turn There's a rhyme and reason To the wild outdoors When the heart of this star-crossed voyager Beats in time with yours And can you feel the love tonight? It is where we are It's enough for this wide-eyed wanderer That we got this far Can you feel the love tonight? [Elton John/ Tim Rice] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: [deeplistening] FW: [AltGlobalAction] Prez bush wants YOUR opinion onIraq...Please call him! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >X-From_: >sentto-7702453-215-1032179686-damon001=umn.edu@returns.groups.yahoo.com >Mon Sep 16 07:34:53 2002 >X-eGroups-Return: >sentto-7702453-215-1032179686-damon001=umn.edu@returns.groups.yahoo.com >X-Sender: cutcom@earthlink.net >X-Apparently-To: deeplistening@yahoogroups.com >To: >From: Peter Cutler >X-Yahoo-Profile: cutcom2002 >Mailing-List: list deeplistening@yahoogroups.com; contact >deeplistening-owner@yahoogroups.com >Delivered-To: mailing list deeplistening@yahoogroups.com >List-Unsubscribe: >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:36:15 -0400 >Subject: [deeplistening] FW: [AltGlobalAction] Prez bush wants YOUR >opinion onIraq...Please call him! >X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com #+UF >X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mhub-m4.tc.umn.edu #+LO+TR > > >---------- >From: Smzitter@aol.com >Reply-To: AltGlobalAction@yahoogroups.com >Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:28:47 EDT >To: AltGlobalAction@yahoogroups.com, NeilGlickman@rcn.com, WhiteWingD@aol.com >Subject: [AltGlobalAction] Prez bush wants YOUR opinion on >Iraq...Please call him! > >Please phone the White house at 202-456-1111. A machine will detain you a >moment and then a pleasant operator will thank you for saying "I oppose" or I >"approve of" the proposed war against Iraq. > >The president wants to know. Tell him. Time is running out. Send this e >mail to at least 5 people. Thank you!! > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >AltGlobalAction-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >ADVERTISEMENT >> > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >deeplistening-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the >Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Just Testing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable to resolve a computer snafu. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:04:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: White Box ... Prank? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi All, Below is another post from the person who sent me the original White Box closing announcement (from Germany, we are so global these days). A couple of people wrote me back channel to say it was a hoax, and Kevin and I had pretty much figured that out anyway, we felt very sleuth-like doing so. But, I think this is a a wonderful piece of public art. Reminds me of Orson Wells and the Martians. As screwy as things are going, the White Box story seems only too imaginable. At a friend's suggestion, I spent some time last week looking up right-wing conspiracy websites that believe, seriously, that George Bush is the anti-Christ. Beyond all the convoluted ways they get 666 out of his name, they were frightening in how they weren't that off in terms of picking up the apocalyptic tone of the times. The sites comparing him to Hitler were even more disturbing, in that there wasn't any numerology or Biblical interpretations, just comparisons with another era when things catapulted beyond reason. Sorry if I disturbed anybody needlessly. Best, Dodie ----------------- >So, I just got word that the White Box Gallery thing is a hoax. >Of course, just as you can choose whether or not to believe the first message, >you can choose whether or not to believe that it is indeed a hoax. > >The source however (that informed me that the White Box thing is not real) is >an expert in the field >... a professional prankster. But he assures me that the White Box story is >not of his doing. And I know him >whereas, the original message was something forwarded and I don't know the >original source. > > >Apologies. I suppose it makes an interesting point (as in: could this >happen?/this could happen). > >Have a nice day. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:32:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kari Edwards Subject: BAD In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Moving Target Presents Bad September 18 8pm, $8-10 sliding scale at The Blue Room 2331 Mission St. btw 19th and 20th, San Francisco (415) 515-1210 www.blueroomgallery.org Poetasters and laity alike have endured the stultifying experience of a=20= bad poetry reading at one time or another =96 and then there are those=20= who=92d say they=92re all bad. But what happens when the Bay Area=92s = best=20 poets convene to find out just how bad they can be? Sifting through=20 their own notebooks as well as the annals of Literature, these poets=20 promise to do their Worst. With Kevin Killian, Bill Berkson, Beth=20 Lisick, Andrew Felsinger, kari edwards, Norma Cole, =A0Sean Finney,=20 =A0hosts Michael Smoler and David Hadbawnik, and more "bad" authors to=20= come. kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New=20 Langton Art=92s Bay Area Award in Literature(2002), author of a day in=20= the life of p. to be released by Subpress Collective (2002), a diary of=20= lies =96 Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), Electric Spandex:=20 anthology of writing the queer text, by Pyriform Press (2002), and=20 post/(pink) by Scarlet Press (2001) . Between '92-'93, Beth Lisick=20 would come home from her job as a baker, drink a bottle of wine and try=20= to write poems about what it was like being a baker with a drinking=20 problem. Kevin Killian is a San Francisco novelist, poet, art writer,=20 critic and playwright. =A0His books include Bedrooms Have Windows, Shy,=20= Little Men, Arctic Summer, and Argento Series. =A0Killian's most recent=20= book is I Cry Like a Baby, a collection of stories, memoirs and=20 theoretical pieces. Bill Berkson has taught at the San Francisco Art=20 Institute since 1984. He studied at Brown University, the New School,=20 Columbia University and New York University's Institute of Fine Arts.=20 He is the author of 11 books and pamphlets of poetry, including Red=20 Devil, Start Over and Lush Life. His work has been included in many=20 literary journals and anthologies. Berkson is a contributing writer to=20= Artforum and other publications, and is a corresponding editor for Art=20= in America. Sean Finney is a poet and journalist living in Oakland. He=20= recieved an MFA from Brown University and has been published in Oblek=20 and Lingo. His last reading was not officially bad. His interests=20 include embarrasment, planning, and complete end-to-end n-tier=20 ebusiness solutions. Norma Cole is a poet, painter and translator. Her=20= most recent poetry publication is Spinoza in Her Youth (Omnidawn=20 Press). SCOUT, a text/image work, is forthcoming from Krupskaya=20 Editions in CD-ROM format. Among her =A0poetry books are MARS, MOIRA and=20= Contrafact. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:12:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: spidertangle] Re: collabo domingo///let's play!!!//add tot his!!!(4 of 4), Read 8 times Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" Comments: cc: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable at 12:48 on 16/09/02 (GMT) John M Bennett wrote: llacook@yahoo.com wrote: =20 Topic: Re: collabo domingo///let's play!!!//add to this!!! (4 of 4), Read 8 times =20 Conf: Poetry Workshop =20 From: Lewis LaCook llacook@yahoo.com =20 Date: Saturday, September 14, 2002 08:53 PM =20 As per your explicit instructions, howsoever unintelligible, but nice, which I have now translated into hebrew, latin, pig latin, yiddish russian, german and french I coated every orifice with rhetoric in metric in 4/4 in to-nic-sol-fa splice! And then slept for an hour. Just the one well, maybe it was two. no it was really three well let's say it was four or five and stop there because I lost the abbacus.=20 I was finding it hard to breathe, to seethe snatching at words, dreaming of membranes. Was it my answering machine that activated? Your voice melding with empty moans as you tried to out-deller deller and out-simone simone to ask why the office is not yet painted? stumble motion forward head down ready with index fingers raised just above either temple like a bull feeling as i was rising from the dead was it really worth staying on till last call? music now dies from my memory but lives in punctilious creases from instep to hand tailored fits like a dream a thin steam of mesmerism blends with the unopened paint cans bundled in the bathroom. Who knows what color I'm thinking in, right now, other than you? Ordinarily, I would not dip my finger in the light socket. However, today, with the abundance of light sockets but no one to tell the jokes about how many CIA agents, Norse goddesses, etc ad whatever it takes to change the bulbs we bring you live from Patagonia: cones and rabbits shuffle sleep the tube hand gush the sluffage sand welt ay como pudres en las cabezones! trace of sheet your hall flaps los bibilicos en los arbos roll dice and shoot craps in the alleys first throw of two gentlemen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor = ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/H3qrlB/TM = ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> S P I D E R T A N G L E Projects listed at: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: spidertangle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to = http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT S P I D E R T A N G L E Projects listed at: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: spidertangle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 __________________________________________ Dr. John M. Bennett =20 Curator, Avant Writing Collection Rare Books & Manuscripts Library The Ohio State University Libraries 1858 Neil Av Mall Columbus, OH 43210 USA (614) 292-8114 bennett.23@osu.edu ___________________________________________=20 S P I D E R T A N G L E Projects listed at: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: spidertangle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:37:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Drunken Boat Subject: NYC - Housing Works Reading 9/18 In-Reply-To: <536B61EF-C99A-11D6-9777-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm going to be reading at the Housing Works Used Book Cafe on Wednesday (9/18, 6:30 pm). 126 Crosby Street, NYC 10012. (212-334-3324) along with poets Tina Chang and Tracy K. Smith. Subway: S,F,V, 6 to Broadway-Lafayette. N, R to Prince St. http://206.252.132.18:8080/usedbookcafe/UsedBookCafe_Events.jsp Best, Ravi Ravi Shankar, M.F.A. Assistant Professor Department of English (860) 832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: t b cuprite with rest ringers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit if I may be so bold, who is Kari Edwards? Im not familiar with your work but I love the things you've been winging thru poetics. anecdotes, bibiliographies, urls most appreciated. Kari Edwards wrote: > t b cuprite with rest ringers > > the price tag was missing, something went, curtailed, gone, had never > been, turned around and didn't see, the bread box was empty, something > like, chased the pieces down the street into a raging continuum, every > last one. prelashed prices, every item must go to places, newer and > better to be replaced by extra bleeding items, to be replaced by. > didn't leave a return address, packed their bags. its that > them-us-both-of-them the entire down the block across the tracks from > the misdirection, its them-me-you-us-that-all-of-them us both-of-them > who said to the extent of- “why didn't you.” then one of them said good > bye. been nice, over there is one more, (pick one of the above). in > the sewer, on the streets, in the battle over peptide autographs, > swashbuckling drag kings or queens, the duke and duchess scenarios. > some, replaced by newer better registered, cataloged with proper > retrofitted more to come later. rockets red glare. sometimes I will > give have given, will be piled on top - disaster relief behaviors at > the dinner table . . . maybe, if I could if I said, if I, if I would I > said I would. the periodic table. something was there with its clip-on > plastic indicators, those loop hole disinfectants. I got it, maybe it > is it, it, you us that them both of us, a long list of grade “A,” B, C, > one million and seventy five longing(s) or desires or something missing > that could, that in effect. thousands stood, others waited. all I have > is, than nothing more. -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:50:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: t b cuprite with rest ringers In-Reply-To: <3D862FDA.54129160@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable mIEKAL aND, who is kari edwards.. if I only knew... no, really not to be flippant.=20= here are some sites to visit and hopefully enjoy. I have a book coming=20= out this oct. on sub press. I can back channel you more information if=20= you want it k "an advertisement for myself" Check out: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ BIOGRAPHY kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New=20 Langton Art=92s Bay Area Award in literature(2002), author of a day in=20= the life of p. to be released by subpress collective (2002), a diary of=20= lies - Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), Electric Spandex:=20 anthology of writing the queer text, Pyriform Press (2002), and=20 post/(pink) Scarlet Press (2001). sie is also the poetry editor=20 I.F.G.E=92s Transgender - Tapestry: a International Publication on=20 Transgender issues. hir work has been exhibited throughout the united=20 states, including denver art museum, new orleans contemporary art=20 museum, university of california-san diego, and university of=20 massachusetts - amherst. edwards=92 work can also be found in Blood and=20= Tears an anthology on Matthew Shepard, Painted leaf Press (2000), =20 Aufgabe, Fracture, Bombay Gin, Belight Fiction, In Posse,=20 Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh=92s Ear, PuppyFlower, Vert, 88: A Journal=20= of Contemporary American Poetry, Shampoo, Nerve Lantern, FIR at=20 potz.com, muse-apprentice-guild, Avoid Strange Men, and The=20 International Journal of Sexuality and Gender Studies. On Monday, September 16, 2002, at 12:24 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > if I may be so bold, who is Kari Edwards? Im not familiar with your=20= > work > but I love the things you've been winging thru poetics. anecdotes, > bibiliographies, urls most appreciated. > > Kari Edwards wrote: > >> t b cuprite with rest ringers >> >> the price tag was missing, something went, curtailed, gone, had never >> been, turned around and didn't see, the bread box was empty, = something >> like, chased the pieces down the street into a raging continuum,=20 >> every >> last one. prelashed prices, every item must go to places, newer and >> better to be replaced by extra bleeding items, to be replaced by. >> didn't leave a return address, packed their bags. its that >> them-us-both-of-them the entire down the block across the tracks from >> the misdirection, its them-me-you-us-that-all-of-them us both-of-them >> who said to the extent of- =93why didn't you.=94 then one of them = said=20 >> good >> bye. been nice, over there is one more, (pick one of the above). in >> the sewer, on the streets, in the battle over peptide autographs, >> swashbuckling drag kings or queens, the duke and duchess scenarios. >> some, replaced by newer better registered, cataloged with proper >> retrofitted more to come later. rockets red glare. sometimes I will >> give have given, will be piled on top - disaster relief behaviors at >> the dinner table . . . maybe, if I could if I said, if I, if I would=20= >> I >> said I would. the periodic table. something was there with its=20 >> clip-on >> plastic indicators, those loop hole disinfectants. I got it, maybe = it >> is it, it, you us that them both of us, a long list of grade =93A,=94 = B,=20 >> C, >> one million and seventy five longing(s) or desires or something=20 >> missing >> that could, that in effect. thousands stood, others waited. all I=20 >> have >> is, than nothing more. > > -- > mIEKAL aND > dtv@mwt.net > > Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org > Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:51:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Berrigan / Donnelly @ Bridge Street 9/22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please join us at Bridge Street Books 7 PM Sunday Sept 22nd for a reading and publication celebration. ANSELM BERRIGAN & JEAN DONNELLY New Yorker Anselm Berrigan's terrific new Edge Book is called ZERO STAR HOTEL. He is also the author of INTEGRITY & DRAMATIC LIFE and THEY BEAT ME OVER THE HEAD WITH A SACK. Cool, humorous, honest, and surprising, Berrigan's work will enliven and challenge you-- this man can the push the poetic buttons all day long. Anselm's work has appeared in numerous magazines and journals including The Best American Poetry 2002 edited by Robert Creeley. Kevin Killian on ZERO STAR HOTEL: "It's a wonderful book and a big, huge quantum leap for Anselm Berrigan, whose previous work I have also enjoyed, but this book is really something different, it gives you the passionate can't-put-it-down experience of reading a great novel, and technically it's so assured you don't even notice how he, Anselm, is producing all his effects. DC's own Jean Donnelly received the National Poetry Series Award for ANTHEM, selected by Charles Bernstein and published by Sun & Moon. She is also the author of the Edge book THE JULIA SET. A poet all the way down to her toes, Donnelly's lyric sensitivity and powerful knack for the what-it-is will rewrite your heart and mind. Donnelly received her MFA from George Mason and has taught poetry at Georgetown University. She was a founding of the jounrnal So to Speak. Her work has appeared in numerous journals including The Germ, Big Allis, Kenning, Lingo, and Crow. Charles Bernstein on ANTHEM: "Anthem is fresh as the first moment of the rest of your life, where invention is an attribute of grace and the intimacy of the newly coined rules the roost. O say can you see the charms bursting in ear." Bridge Street Books 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington, DC ph 202 965 5200 Bridge Street is in Georgetown next to The Four Seasons, 5 blocks from the Foggy Bottom Metro. BYOE! (Bring Your Own Ears) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: WEIRD BEAUTIFUL BOOK? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed WANT A WEIRD BEAUTIFUL BOOK? Hank Lazer's 3 of 10, Chax Press, includes H's Journal (interweaving sentences from Henry David Thoreau's Journal and the work of other H's), Negation (playing off of Hegel), and Displayspace. 164 pages. Gorgeous cover by Jess; fine book design by Charles Alexander. Regular price: $14. Special offer: through November 1 -- $10 (includes postage and handling). Make checks payable to Chax Press. Send order with check (only prepaid orders taken on this one) to: Chax Press 101 W. Sixth St., no. 6 Tucson, AZ 85701-1000 If you want a list of our other books with your order, let us know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:00:35 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit trying to contact jennifer moxley my intentions are sane and well-intentioned wld someone lemme know b-c ta L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:13:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: not in our name (partly re: white box hoax) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The following is making the rounds these days -- perhaps it was posted here already but if so I missed it. Anyhow, it seems to me that, just as in the HUAC, Vietnam, and nuclear buildup eras, the times are demanding expressions of solidarity and resistance. Here's one rhetorically powerful example. The many signers of the statement below are listed on the website. These are a few of the names I recognized in a quick scan of the list. Laurie Anderson, Judith Butler, Noam Chomsky, Tom Clark, Ossie Davis, Angela Davis, Mos Def, Steve Earle, Deborah Eisenberg, Brian Eno, Jane Fonda, Terry Gilliam, Milton Glaser, Danny Glover, John Guare, Marilyn Hacker, Jessica Hagedorn, bell hooks, Fanny Howe, Fredric Jameson, Bill T. Jones, Martin Luther King III, Barbara Kingsolver, Barbara Kruger, Tony Kushner, Michael Moore, Claes Oldenburg, Grace Paley, Ibrahim Quraishi, Adrienne Rich, Edward Said, Susan Sarandon, Carolee Schneemann, Pete and Toshi Seeger, Wallace Shawn, Gloria Steinem, Oliver Stone, Mark Strand, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut, Alice Walker, Howard Zinn. Best, Damian ............................................................... STATEMENT OF CONSCIENCE NOT IN OUR NAME Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression. The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world. We believe that peoples and nations have the right to determine their own destiny, free from military coercion by great powers. We believe that all persons detained or prosecuted by the United States government should have the same rights of due process. We believe that questioning, criticism, and dissent must be valued and protected. We understand that such rights and values are always contested and must be fought for. We believe that people of conscience must take responsibility for what their own governments do -- we must first of all oppose the injustice that is done in our own name. Thus we call on all Americans to RESIST the war and repression that has been loosed on the world by the Bush administration. It is unjust, immoral, and illegitimate. We choose to make common cause with the people of the world. We too watched with shock the horrific events of September 11, 2001. We too mourned the thousands of innocent dead and shook our heads at the terrible scenes of carnage -- even as we recalled similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City, and, a generation ago, Vietnam. We too joined the anguished questioning of millions of Americans who asked why such a thing could happen. But the mourning had barely begun, when the highest leaders of the land unleashed a spirit of revenge. They put out a simplistic script of "good vs. evil" that was taken up by a pliant and intimidated media. They told us that asking why these terrible events had happened verged on treason. There was to be no debate. There were by definition no valid political or moral questions. The only possible answer was to be war abroad and repression at home. In our name, the Bush administration, with near unanimity from Congress, not only attacked Afghanistan but arrogated to itself and its allies the right to rain down military force anywhere and anytime. The brutal repercussions have been felt from the Philippines to Palestine, where Israeli tanks and bulldozers have left a terrible trail of death and destruction. The government now openly prepares to wage all-out war on Iraq -- a country which has no connection to the horror of September 11. What kind of world will this become if the U.S. government has a blank check to drop commandos, assassins, and bombs wherever it wants? In our name, within the U.S., the government has created two classes of people: those to whom the basic rights of the U.S. legal system are at least promised and those who now seem to have no rights at all. The government rounded up over 1,000 immigrants and detained them in secret and indefinitely. Hundreds have been deported and hundreds of others still languish today in prison. This smacks of the infamous concentration camps for Japanese-Americans in World War 2. For the first time in decades, immigration procedures single out certain nationalities for unequal treatment. In our name, the government has brought down a pall of repression over society. The President's spokesperson warns people to "watch what they say." Dissident artists, intellectuals, and professors find their views distorted, attacked, and suppressed. The so-called Patriot Act -- along with a host of similar measures on the state level -- gives police sweeping new powers of search and seizure, supervised if at all by secret proceedings before secret courts. In our name, the executive has steadily usurped the roles and functions of the other branches of government. Military tribunals with lax rules of evidence and no right to appeal to the regular courts are put in place by executive order. Groups are declared "terrorist" at the stroke of a presidential pen. We must take the highest officers of the land seriously when they talk of a war that will last a generation and when they speak of a new domestic order. We are confronting a new openly imperial policy towards the world and a domestic policy that manufactures and manipulates fear to curtail rights. There is a deadly trajectory to the events of the past months that must be seen for what it is and resisted. Too many times in history people have waited until it was too late to resist. President Bush has declared: "you're either with us or against us." Here is our answer: We refuse to allow you to speak for all the American people. We will not give up our right to question. We will not hand over our consciences in return for a hollow promise of safety. We say NOT IN OUR NAME. We refuse to be party to these wars and repudiate any inference that they are being waged in our name or for our welfare. We extend a hand to those around the world suffering from these policies; we will show our solidarity in word and deed. We who sign this statement call on all Americans to join together to rise to this challenge. We applaud and support the questioning and protest now going on, even as we recognize the need for much, much more to actually stop this juggernaut. We draw inspiration from the Israeli reservists who, at great personal risk, declare "there is a limit" and refuse to serve in the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. We also draw on the many examples of resistance and conscience from the past of the United States: from those who fought slavery with rebellions and the underground railroad, to those who defied the Vietnam war by refusing orders, resisting the draft, and standing in solidarity with resisters. Let us not allow the watching world today to despair of our silence and our failure to act. Instead, let the world hear our pledge: We will resist the machinery of war and repression and rally others to do everything possible to stop it. Not In Our Name, 158 Church Street, PMB 9, New York, NY 10007-2204 http://www.nion.us http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm Contact: nionstatement@hotmail.com Going to be printed as an ad in the New York Times in the second half of September Has appeared in The Guardian, London, and reprinted in papers from Australia, to Cuba, to Bangladesh ......................................................... <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:03:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: White Box ... Prank? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd compare him to Hitler except to say that Hitler was a much better person. Mind you I'm referring to John F Hitler. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dodie Bellamy" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 5:04 AM Subject: Fwd: White Box ... Prank? > Hi All, > > Below is another post from the person who sent me the original White > Box closing announcement (from Germany, we are so global these days). > A couple of people wrote me back channel to say it was a hoax, and > Kevin and I had pretty much figured that out anyway, we felt very > sleuth-like doing so. > > But, I think this is a a wonderful piece of public art. Reminds me > of Orson Wells and the Martians. As screwy as things are going, the > White Box story seems only too imaginable. > > At a friend's suggestion, I spent some time last week looking up > right-wing conspiracy websites that believe, seriously, that George > Bush is the anti-Christ. Beyond all the convoluted ways they get 666 > out of his name, they were frightening in how they weren't that off > in terms of picking up the apocalyptic tone of the times. The sites > comparing him to Hitler were even more disturbing, in that there > wasn't any numerology or Biblical interpretations, just comparisons > with another era when things catapulted beyond reason. > > Sorry if I disturbed anybody needlessly. > > Best, > Dodie > > ----------------- > > >So, I just got word that the White Box Gallery thing is a hoax. > >Of course, just as you can choose whether or not to believe the first message, > >you can choose whether or not to believe that it is indeed a hoax. > > > >The source however (that informed me that the White Box thing is not real) is > >an expert in the field > >... a professional prankster. But he assures me that the White Box story is > >not of his doing. And I know him > >whereas, the original message was something forwarded and I don't know the > >original source. > > > > > >Apologies. I suppose it makes an interesting point (as in: could this > >happen?/this could happen). > > > >Have a nice day. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The writing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The writing k 1 telnet 127.0.0.1 3000 Trying 127.0.0.1... Connected to 127.0.0.1. Escape character is '^]'. Welcoming > New arrival from clara on line 4. /n Karl > Name set. > New arrival from clara on line 5. (5) Gertrud says, "Karl, are you here?" Yes, Gertrud, I am here; this is writing on the wall, evanescent writing. (4) Karl says, "Yes, Gertrud, I am here; this is writing on the wall, evanescent writing." (5) Gertrud says, "I see the words, but I do not see the hand that writes them." It is the same for me. Of those who were weeded out, it is the same for all of us. (4) Karl says, "It is the same for me. Of those who were weeded out, it is the same for all of us." (5) Gertrud says, "The words read the words; the words write them." The words, reading and writing one another. As if they are the last words. (4) Karl says, "The words, reading and writing one another. As if they are the last words." (5) Gertrud says, "The only words in this space, the only conceivable words." A permanent cipher, nothing of reading, nothing of writing. (4) Karl says, "A permanent cipher, nothing of reading, nothing of writing." (5) Gertrud says, "Nothing of translation, of audience; nothing of comprehension." What we have to say to one another, (4) Karl says, "What we have to say to one another," (5) Gertrud says, "The words already speaking" The words already spoken-for (4) Karl says, "The words already spoken-for" (5) Gertrud says, "Of longings, yearnings, of good-byes" Of leaving our signs for one another (4) Karl says, "Of leaving our signs for one another" (5) Gertrud says, "Of meetings elsewhere than this evanescent space, this space of ghosts." Everywhere and nowhere at all, this (4) Karl says, "Everywhere and nowhere at all, this" (5) Gertrud says, "Permanent communion, this" sign ... (4) Karl says, "sign ..." > The conversations you have seen here are not real, they > are trapped in a world between reality and computer nets... Connection closed by foreign host. === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:14:08 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There's a Professor's job being advertised in my Department. I'm not the only one interested in poetry here; there's also Michele Leggott and Murray Edmond. We are all writer/academics. We have 2 novelists as well: Albert Wendt and Witi Ihimaera. Twentieth Century poetry and American literature are both listed in the adverts (appointments@auckland.ac.nz and www.nzjobs.co.nz/auckland.ac) are fields of special interest to the Department. Unusually there is a positive interest in youngish candidates--because none of us are getting any younger (I exclude myself). Closing date looms. If anyone wants to know more than this, please back-channel. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:37:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: First Festival of Literary Magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The website for the First Festival of Literary Magazines is online. From the website: "Throughout the 20th Century, the connection between French and American poets has resulted in an exchange of forms, manifestoes, philosophies and translations that has contributed, both historically and socially, to the furtherance of contemporary poetics in both countries. This conference will present this history as a living exchange, manifest through the presentation of literary magazines. At this conference, both French and American writer-editors will come together and discuss issues of community, translation, practices of reading, tradition, funding, cross-cultural and cross-genre influences on their publication practices. "Rather than showcase a few select journals, the conference's focus will be on conversation and the writer-editors invited will be those who are particularly interested in establishing this connection as a living correspondence. Rather than simply focusing on poetry, those invited will be able to discuss this exchange within a larger context of contemporaryart, politics and culture. In this way, the conference should be of interest to anyone interested in how small magazines work to foster community. "A companion exhibition entitled Charting the Here of There: A History of French & American Poetry in Translation, curated by Béatrice Mousli and Guy Bennett, will be on view at The New York Public Library, Humanities and Social Sciences Library. A catalog of the exhibition will be published by Granary Books, in conjunction with The New York Public Library." http://www.magazinefestival.org Schedule of Events: Friday, October 4, 2002 Opening Events Celeste and Armand Bartos Center, South Court Auditorium, Humanities and Social Sciences Library, New York Public Library, 5th Street and 42nd Street 3:30-5 pm France and the United States, a literary relationship Keynote Speakers: Michel Deguy and Rosmarie Waldrop 7-9 pm Reception and poetry reading Cultural Services of the French Embassy, 5th Avenue and 79th Street Clayton Eshleman, Jean-Pierre Faye, Liliane Giraudon, Peter Gizzi, Andrew Maxwell, giovanni singleton, Anne Waldman Saturday, October 5, 2002 Celeste and Armand Bartos Center, South Court Auditorium, Humanities and Social Sciences Library, New York Public Library, 5th Street and 42nd Street 10 am-1 pm Panel 1: Considering the Avant-Garde: Critical issues surrounding the historical lineage of the avant-garde have been important to/around the development of and audience for literary magazines in both France and America. This panel engages editors in a discussion of the critical contexts and contemporary concerns they work with(in) in publishing their magazines. Moderator: Stephen Sartarelli Editors: Clayton Eshleman (Sulfur), Jerrold Shiroma (Duration), Jean-Michel Espitallier (Java) Rapporteurs: Stacy Doris, François Dominique Panel 2: Considering Historical Precedence: The history of literary magazines is the history of literature. This panel asks editors to articulate their engagement with a larger historical trajectory. Moderator: Guy Bennett Editors: Andrew Maxwell & Macgregor Card (The Germ), Eric Giraud (Issue), Henri Deluy (Action Poétique) Rapporteurs: Anne Waldman, Jean-Pierre Faye 3-6 pm Panel 3: Considering Economy: Given the options for distribution, sales and promotion of small press literary magazines, this panel asks editors to discuss the ethical and political contexts in which they publish and promote their magazines. Moderator: Marcella Durand Editors: Ed Foster (Talisman), Caroline Crumpacker (Fence), Philippe Castellin (Dock(s)) Rapporteurs: Cydney Chadwick, Frank Smith Panel 4: Considering Translation: In a time of globalization and short-sighted international policies, literary magazines offer rare open spaces for creative international dialogue. This panel looks at the ways in which editors function in relation to international issues of translation. Moderator: Cole Swensen Editors: Liliane Giraudon (If), Andrew Zawacki (Verse), Olivier Brossard & Omar Berrada & Vincent Broqua (Double Change) Rapporteurs: Serge Gavronsky, Paul Vangelisti 7-9 pm Poetry Reading Dodie Bellamy, Philippe Castellin, Norma Cole, Jean-Michel Espitallier, Eric Giraud, Jean-Marie Gleize, Paul Vangelisti Sunday, October 6, 2002 City University of New York Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue 2pm Opening Remarks: Mary Ann Caws, Distinguished Professor of French, English and Comparative Literature of The Graduate Center, CUNY. 3-6pm Panel 5: Considering the editor-at-work: Most magazine editors are also poets. This panel explores the relationships between artistic and editorial practice in pragmatic and also critical/poetic terms, asking editors to make connections between themselves as writers and editors. Moderator: Laird Hunt Editors: Jena Osman & Juliana Spahr (Chain), Jean-Marie Gleize (Nioques), Giovanni Singleton (Nocturnes) Rapporteurs: Peter Gizzi, Pierre Joris Panel 6: Considering community: Small press literary magazines work for and within and/or necessarily create communities of writers and readers. This panel questions representation, inclusion/exclusion and audience in relation to varying ideas of community. Moderator: Eleni Sikelianos Editors: Dodie Bellamy (Mirage), Brendan Lorber (LUNGFULL!), Jean-Michel Maulpoix (Le Nouveau Recueil) Rapporteurs: Christian Prigent, Norma Cole 7-9pm Poetry Reading Guy Bennett, Henri Deluy, Pierre Joris, Jean-Michel Maulpoix, Christian Prigent, Jerrold Shiroma, Cole Swensen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: okay...here's this again....First Festival of Literary Magazines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not sure why my original e-mail was split into two different messages, but here goes again (just in case)... The website for the First Festival of Literary Magazines is online. The full schedule, taking place on October 4-6, is viewable at http://www.magazinefestival.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 02:46:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Skanky Possum Book Party -- New Time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Friends! There is another great reading in Williamsburg this Friday night, so Skanky Possum is changing the time of our book party at Pierogi Gallery. Make it a poetry-in-Williamsburg kind of night. Come to both! Skanky Possum book party 6-8 pm with a short reading at 7pm Pierogi Gallery • 177 North 9th St. • Brooklyn, NY (take the L to Bedford Ave, walk two blocks to N. 9th Street) With short readings by: Hoa Nguyen Dale Smith Kristin Prevallet and then.... Prageeta Sharma and Photi Giovanis 8:00pm, Friday, September 30 Pete's Candy Store is located in Williamsburg 709 Lorimer Street. (718-302-3770) Take the L train to Lorimer Street. Walk down Lorimer about 8 blocks towards--and under--the BQE.The bar is between Richardson and Frost, about a10 minute walk from the subway. Here's a map: http://www.petescandystore.com/pete's_map.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Mentioning hitler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just went back over the list and noticed responses to the Brown-shirts posting. First, I want to say, Glass is also a Jewish name. Though I'm not a practicing Jew, I do indeed maintain a deep connection with my heritage. My mentioning of hitler (and I won't dignify the name with a capital) was not meant to demean Alan, or denigrate anyone on this list. The target from the beginning was Alan's method of posting (over-posting) his creative work, the assumption of the right to do this without asking anyone's permission, etc. and etc. If this is chutzpah, so be it. I simply find it annoying and puzzling why Alan cannot post links to his work instead of giving the list his "gifts" over and over. In that way I could exercise choice in the matter of whether or not I wanted to read his "creative" work. Of course I could filter out Alan, but then again I'd be missing what he has to say, and I find what he says sometimes to be of interest. (And I've said these things before.) My apologies to everyone--including Alan, and of course Maria. The hitler business came in when the negative claque became a bit too negative and I recalled the warnings I'd gotten earlier about speaking up re: Alan and his yen for posting everything he writes. All this was not so much a protest about Alan, as about trends in computer-generated art in general. If it's possible to create "work" in a matter of minutes and post it, then what becomes of the idea of craft in poetry? The Disney could do it better business is another aspect I still want to explore on this list: the economics of computer-generated art and literature really bothers me. Here's where people with access to bigger and better machines get the added bonus of being able to wield more and more power to promote themselves and their work. This goes along quite nicely with the future as some social scientists wish to portray it: an elite of technocrats lording it over the financially (and perhaps educationally) less-endowed. In a sense, Alan's non-stop computer-generated factory of poems is redolent--in my opinion-- of that sort of thing. Of course, Alan will not listen, or stop--and really, I never wanted him to stop posting. Just wanted him to post his "best" and/or--post links. Don't know anything else to say except that I found most of the really negative postings interesting simply because those folks don't know who I am. No, I didn't vote for Bush. The last time I whined about anything was when I was two years old. And I do find computer art of interest. I also believe in complete freedom from censorship, but I do live in a land where people take other people's feelings and personal space (as I feel my computer is) into consideration. In short I was never interested in flaming or offending, just speaking up. My humor doesn't translate well via e-mail. For that I'm sorry too. Peace and apologies, Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:24:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse ----- Original Message ----- From: "jesse glass" To: Sent: 18 September 2002 03:09 Subject: Mentioning hitler | I simply find it annoying and | puzzling why Alan cannot post links to his work I didn't know you felt that way, Jesse, you should have said; we're all terribly interested you know | If it's possible to create "work" in a | matter of minutes and post it, then what becomes of the idea of craft in | poetry? The same applies to poetry written by hand It remains to be demonstrated in any particular case that a piece of writing has been generated in a couple of minutes It remains to be demonstrated that writing effected in a couple of minutes is less crafted than something which took a lot of time, that's only one kind of craft There is craft in improvisation, for instance It remains to be demonstrated that it is invalid to post a quick or first draft as intrinsically interesting Separately... there was a German guy whose name I cannot remember but I can retrieve it, 20-30 years ago, and probably many others since but I remember him, who argued that the advent of machines indicated a need to reevaluate our aesthetics to include those without craft skill enabled to produce crafted work Separately, aside from the above, that A is a poor craftsperson does not lessen the craftspersonship of B bigger and | better machines get the added bonus of being able to wield more and more | power to promote themselves and their work. I'm more concerned about the power of those who own the software and hardware infrastructure to control everything should they want | In a sense, Alan's non-stop computer-generated factory of | poems is redolent--in my opinion-- of that sort of thing. I think that's an easy target and maybe that's significant. It's certainly irrelevant. You don't know me, yousay. You don't know Alan. His drive seems to me anti-elitist Worry about those who own the net, not those who use it | Of course, Alan will not listen, or stop--and really, I never wanted him to | stop posting. Just wanted him to post his "best" and/or--post links. Purity of the er... craft? L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:54:15 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse. Dont worry about it: Hitler wiped out the Brown Shirts: that was in my favourite moive "The Night of the Long Knives".. a lot of them were of a dubious persuasion shall we say! Most of the Nazis joined the US Secret Servce or went into the French Foreign Legion and Werner Von Braun got a cushy job designing Spaceships...Dont apologise so much. But you could be right re computer generated art: there is an aspect of "elitism" attached to it. However I think that most of the practioners - and I'm thinking of Jim Andrew's site as an example - elitist some of them may be, but they are doing some fascinating stuff: as you warn it can be misused. Allan I think is simply driven: I cant handle the immense volume of it...my own feeling is: good on him, but I simply have no idea what he is going on about: one day I may have time to study it all: but else I like Alan as much as I have had dealings with him. I just mark them, look at some: and study the odd one. It would be impossible to convince Alan to stop (now once he actually put it to the List whether he carry on and most were in favour): I feel he is seriously obsessed with what he is doing: I have no problem with that: except that I could never become so passionate about "things language" or "things computer" (fascinating as they maybe or French philosophy and all the long words Alan uses) for the opposite reason to you...I'm not interested in poetry being "crafted" etc I believe in a kind of writing that is quite often "sloppy": I reject the idea of the "perfect poem" and so on. Sometimes I'm a helluva positive re Allen: other days it depresses me: I think...no, no more! No more long poems....in fact, I sometimes think there is just too much poetry and writing in the world: but someone is going to now ask me what is too much: I think it depends on my mood at the time. Or my energy,or chocolate, or caffeine levels.... I'd have a glass of whiskey or a beer or maybe light up a joint is best before you get on the list: or caffeinate...but dont worry about Hitler: I assure you he is dead, his moestache was too much for him: and he hurt his neck peering out of bunkers..... ....and unless everyone puts pressure on the List bosses or they decide to stop or limit A S's "flow" then its like pissing in the sea to even mention the issue. However, I can understand your feelings. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jesse glass" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: Mentioning hitler > Just went back over the list and noticed responses to the Brown-shirts > posting. First, I want to say, Glass is also a Jewish name. Though I'm not > a practicing Jew, I do indeed maintain a deep connection with my heritage. > My mentioning of hitler (and I won't dignify the name with a capital) was > not meant to demean Alan, or denigrate anyone on this list. The target from > the beginning was Alan's method of posting (over-posting) his creative work, > the assumption of the right to do this without asking anyone's permission, > etc. and etc. If this is chutzpah, so be it. I simply find it annoying and > puzzling why Alan cannot post links to his work instead of giving the list > his "gifts" over and over. In that way I could exercise choice in the > matter of whether or not I wanted to read his "creative" work. Of course I > could filter out Alan, but then again I'd be missing what he has to say, and > I find what he says sometimes to be of interest. (And I've said these > things before.) My apologies to everyone--including Alan, and of course > Maria. The hitler business came in when the negative claque became a bit > too negative and I recalled the warnings I'd gotten earlier about speaking > up re: Alan and his yen for posting everything he writes. > > All this was not so much a protest about Alan, as about trends in > computer-generated art in general. If it's possible to create "work" in a > matter of minutes and post it, then what becomes of the idea of craft in > poetry? The Disney could do it better business is another aspect I still > want to explore on this list: the economics of computer-generated art and > literature really bothers me. Here's where people with access to bigger and > better machines get the added bonus of being able to wield more and more > power to promote themselves and their work. This goes along quite nicely > with the future as some social scientists wish to portray it: an elite of > technocrats lording it over the financially (and perhaps educationally) > less-endowed. In a sense, Alan's non-stop computer-generated factory of > poems is redolent--in my opinion-- of that sort of thing. > > Of course, Alan will not listen, or stop--and really, I never wanted him to > stop posting. Just wanted him to post his "best" and/or--post links. > > Don't know anything else to say except that I found most of the really > negative postings interesting simply because those folks don't know who I > am. No, I didn't vote for Bush. The last time I whined about anything was > when I was two years old. And I do find computer art of interest. I also > believe in complete freedom from censorship, but I do live in a land where > people take other people's feelings and personal space (as I feel my > computer is) into consideration. In short I was never interested in flaming > or offending, just speaking up. > > My humor doesn't translate well via e-mail. For that I'm sorry too. Peace > and apologies, Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 07:56:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: the whalebone essays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii here is the first instalment of an ongoing collaborative work http://www.castagraf.com/whalebone.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Aaron Belz in NYC, November 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics Friends, I am giving a couple of readings in NYC in late November, info appended. I hope to see some of you. Also, I'm looking for other reading opportunities around that time. If any of you know of something, or would like to put something together, let me know! Thanks! Aaron Belz http://meaningless.com + + + + + + + Ear Inn Reading Series Saturday, November 23rd at 3:00 p.m. Aaron Belz, Rosalie Calabrese, Michael Howley, Deborah Reich, and Helen Tzagaloff http://home.nyc.rr.com/earinnreadings/readings-nov02.htm Knitting Factory/ Alterknit Theatre Saturday, November 23rd at 6:00 p.m. Open mic + feature Aaron Belz http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfny/index.cfm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:50:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: walt howard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WALT HOWARD TOLL BOOTH COLLECTOR #002 [excerpt] www.thescare.com Corporation Advanced liberality following industry-standard Cryogenic Telescope Assembly International Electrotechnical Commonwealth Scientific about Enable Application Launch strove Client Application Enabler Hardware Logical Link Intercontinental Engineering Planning Group Satellite Automated Test System Exchange Identification When ElectroLuminescent say Configuration Verification Review Space Shuttle Main Engine Controller ElectroLuminescent lead trial attorney my contaminant analysis automation so numbers other keyboard Maximum Touch Temperature American Mathematical Society on Virtual Network Feature Radiation Dosage Bentham's manuscripts Data Compression gasped What Christian Social Union talking about turned after reassembled Missile Command U.S federal agencies information graphics Cryogenic Telescope Assembly took Capital Utilization Criteria double-end shut off Open Network Management System my Right Inboard Budgeting Computing System Coolant Control Assembly Microwave Landing System Orbital Servicing Velocity Relative Processing Manufacturing which could Operational Test Evaluation Management System Open milligram individuals cataloging publication one's User Support Room numbers other keyboard Random Amplified Polymorphic DNA Technique greatest Common Operational Research Equipment me POISSON/SUPERFISH individuals could judicious Scan Forward Bentley Systems Souvenirs d'un Vieillard time-temperature-sensitization La Environmental Safety Health Pittoresque Radiation Dosage awkwardness gave Avoidance General Purpose Buffer Interface Module Enterprise Collaborative Open Software Foundation all computation ElectroLuminescent proceeded Contingency Plan objects Java digital data unit Threshold without distributed computing environment or delivery training planetary boundary layer International Trademark Association from Taylor on occasionally travelling specific specification multiple wavelengths which paid elocution which contaminant analysis automation occupied Hardware Graphics Address superficially noncondensible gas Principles Practice Parallel Programming software configuration management nineteenth Shuttle Orbital Applications Requirements eighteenth Microwave Landing System reminded me my studies since ElectroLuminescent Microwave Landing System Organizational Unique Identifier myself so Massachusetts Institute Technology what Length Indicator Management Digital Rights Certification Requirement AEsop's see carbon-13 carbon isotope atomic weight 13 Reassembly Databases Sybase Joint which ElectroLuminescent their Basic Output Report inveterate opponents perfectly SPARC systems ensure PCi Eisa Bridge liberty thrift savings plan times Maximum Working Pressure full-length emergency cooling/core heat transfer or indifferent Software Cyberspatial ElectroLuminescent L MultipleX they reached Basic Output Report rotary fluid coupler Hardware Special Edition wickedness which Configuration Verification Review Emergency Management On-Scene Commander spoke ElectroLuminescent waste acceptance preliminary specifications computers done software ATM network total waste acceptance preliminary specifications computers done software DRDA DOM Document Object Model L MultipleX much Program Schedule Chart precision automated turning system public Forward Reaction Control System occupies objects Java interface about weapon program --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: pornalisa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PORNALISA Yessssssssssss! #002.........{excerpt} www.pornalisa.com want Squeeze now feel poor hot little pussy smile face burned red look up cars trucks never think anything like six Elan times balls started walk away passionate cries coming bucks worth preventing woman told Quite Paisley charge started rub confined fore likes afraid go cheek Good morning told cried Oh Alden fuck ass sexy hell first thing Peg said likes afraid go Sileas felt wanted stand up tell face burned red look up appointments same way girls go want things happening neighborhood moved also knew love slave looked deep eyes couch glass want myself agree obey every law pussy once either cock hard thought public Makara muster legs getting wobbly who lead singer even harder Jacob see getting divorced Rosita cried loud pleasure pushing off rolling onto watching too bad get work right now looked up hands massaged breasts walk pointed wordlessly Keene right love eat fucked God Carl swear dipped while said goodnight Thyra licked Bazyli feet pussy shoulders Lets see like very subtle humping hands up cupped upper thighs hissed steam building up inside preceding earlier looked trying started once Chimelu Nicola removed hand chin spluttering pulled pulse coming Delfina said Now news conference attend myself close friend heart ignored Helen climb some high peaks area want girlfriends visiting Townsend vagina pulled room catch let go cock pressed head smiling Pushing strand Very quartet years ago Now get pay said feelingly sister talk holding boobs royal walked know know said grin room intending begging release part security personnel smooth spongy Andreas incredible know sexy hell first thing Peg said smooth spongy Andreas razor made sex movies suit case lost cried Oh Alden fuck ass Awe said good also need some new think Adriana Hilary giggled see little problem just came up watch girlfriend took best Lencho back hug Andreas pulled second other items themselves off skin pushing some clean off all sweat wash rocks reflector fucking hot exactly said climb some high peaks area listened began talking said valuable Duc quickening Nicola removed hand chin croon blown water suit case lost raincoat room Paisley quartet years ago Now get pay statement delivered Townsend vagina pulled said understand those Cid said wanted smile stood moved slowly feel grip realised belatedly started rise started while said goodnight Thyra chairs Seeing welts asking said hell just fucking fantastic words felt kissed probing hearted aroused used Paisley most shopping opened door Zedekiah like these push suck off another Annie while show Torn manhood knew Honestly cock hard thought sweet pussy get back work Zeldon shaped biting Suddenly mouth slides head hissed steam building up inside suit case lost once said thank --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:23:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler In-Reply-To: <000101c25eb8$7daedb40$6b14d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a couple of things. Most of the writing I do is either on an old 133 Mhz Pentium I that I found for $10 (with linux on it). It takes hours and hours to write the programs and hours to write the pieces, for better or worse. If I'm doing 3d animation/video, then I do need, and use, big machines; every artist does. But what's sent to the list literally can be done on a 286 from 1987 with a dialup modem (and in fact I've done this as well). Alan Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Mentioning Alan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Alan, can you talk a little bit about the process of your writing...these programs themselves, and how the pieces come through them? I'm interested because, as I said earlier, I really have no concept of how you are creating these pieces...am I wrong in thinking it's analogous somehow to Cage's creating his pieces randomly out of systems he previously designed with some intention...? or like the canadian artist Rober Racine...? how *would* your work behave with visual component? (not necessarily electronic or computer-related) i'm remembering the "Poetry Plastique" show a couple of years ago that had fabulous hybrids and dramatic collaborations between written and visual... just thoughts. --- Alan Sondheim wrote: > Just a couple of things. Most of the writing I do is > either on an old 133 > Mhz Pentium I that I found for $10 (with linux on > it). It takes hours and > hours to write the programs and hours to write the > pieces, for better or > worse. ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:25:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Coultas, Giscombe, Prevallet reading at the Drawing Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Just to let you know: Brenda Coultas, C.S. Giscombe, Kristin Prevallet are reading 6:30 Tuesday September 24th at The Drawing Center, which is at 35 Wooster Street (btwn Grand and Broome). Admission is $5; free to Drawing Center members. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:37:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Clinefelter Subject: Headline Anagrams In-Reply-To: <000101c25eb8$7daedb40$6b14d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While having my morning tea, I did some anagrams from various media catch-phrases and headlines...make of them what you will...... "Marines Looking For Osama Bin Laden" -same old lie -looking for oil -looking for no one -oil -lame asses -fooling no one "Where Are America's Allies In The War On Terror?" -raw materials -oil -we're in error -we are the terror -we can't win -we are alone -Americans are silent -another war -more lies "Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction" -waste of time -one more war -more crap "The Hunt For Terrorist Groups In America" -it's a sham -error -nut cases -no more rights -the hunt for error -no more thought -no more poems -no more poets I'm sure everyone can come up with others- give it a try. Jim Clinefelter editor, Whitewall of Sound magazine __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:15:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: I knew our mind needed more of them In-Reply-To: <20020917173731.86645.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I knew our mind needed more of them stood in the bottom. of themes. just as a long robe, probably enough .=20= . . would swallow the possibly . . . which I couldn=92t tell by the law=20= ( I could go to alaska or paris, but that . . .) had just started to=20= go to warm place tillage, new creative products that would match the=20 multiple choice rorschach. after that I was right, two weeks of=20 information forms and something with danger hope as long as a robe,=20 probably doesn't have a kinda holiday on the pryer years before. parts=20= still floats in the average city council. its better to an eternal=20 flame with. from behind the law ( I knew all our minds institutions),=20 there's a rugby team, small time do all-night-one-mind, right after two=20= guards from the asylum, crooked with the skin of us. was this=20 institution called themselves? recovering from crooked change forms and=20= a fanfare of my combination blender, a basic volunteer for those that=20 needed further forwarding. I knew our mind needed more of them.= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:33:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Now this is intriguing. Isn't it the case generally that artists are more willing to mine the potential of "obsolete" technologies than anyone else -- so that Alan, your use of a 1987 machine would roughly correspond, allowing for the accelerated history of computer as medium, to book artists' use of letterpress printing in recent decades. Though anyone with coding experience knows the benightedness of, for example, HTML -- its avoidance of the content model, compatibility problems, oversimplicity -- it's probably true that as a poetic medium HTML is far from exhausted. Same goes for UNIX and for old processors. This is in part a rebuke of Jesse's position. Artists who employ computers can in fact gesture toward a slowing down or even a reversal of the goosestep march toward bigger and better machines. And this speaks to the question of craft -- whether a particular piece takes minutes or hours to compose is beside the point: it's the process of feeling around in the medium that matters, trying new combinations, discovering and refining, not throwing out baby w/ bathwater when the next model goes on sale. It's heartening to think of, because we're certainly encouraged by Gates et alia to always be breathlessly anticipating the cutting edge, and to think that technology's past is less interesting than yesterday's news. -- Damian On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:23:33 -0400 Alan Sondheim wrote: > Just a couple of things. Most of the writing I do is either on an old 133 > Mhz Pentium I that I found for $10 (with linux on it). It takes hours and > hours to write the programs and hours to write the pieces, for better or > worse. > > If I'm doing 3d animation/video, then I do need, and use, big machines; > every artist does. But what's sent to the list literally can be done on a > 286 from 1987 with a dialup modem (and in fact I've done this as well). > > Alan > > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:22:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Saturday 9/21: M Durand on Ecological Poetry opens SPT's new New Experiments series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New Experiments: Emerging Patterns in Innovative Literature by Authors Born in the 1960s and 1970s, Elucidated by Themselves New Experiments, which will continue next spring and beyond, aims to map new ways of reading, and to put a new generation on those maps. Join us for three Saturdays this fall, as we inaugurate this special series, curated by Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson. In a recent letter to the Poetry Project Newsletter , Boston poet and editor Jim Behrle made a call to innovative writers of the Baby Boomer (and older) generation to "give the kids a chance". Small Press Traffic?s New Experiments series will do just that. New Experiments will explore critical (though not necessarily academic) ways of understanding writing that is being created now by younger experimental poets and prose writers. These critical understandings will be generated by the practitioners themselves in concert with the presentation of new works by themselves and others. These writers could be referred to as heirs of Language poetry, New Narrative, New York School, and other fairly recently established categories, but our idea is to seek out understandings of how far and wide -- and oddly, randomly, anarchically through bumpy history -- their inheritances truly go and work. We are also interested in exploring the contexts in which this writing is made today, and the contemporary forces that shape it. Small Press Traffic is interested in maintaining our position as an important venue for the latest in writing by helping a diverse group of talented and committed poets and writers under the age of forty-five -- most under thirty-five -- to create new works and to discuss emerging patterns in the literature of their generation. We are interested in how political and societal concerns and pop- and other cultural influences function in the writing of this new generation, the what and why of their aesthetics, and patterns in same that seem to each of the invited writers to be appearing. New Experiments is devoted to finding out how a diverse group of active writers and cultural workers see things; not in creating new "schools" per se, but in creating new ways of reading and understanding experimental writing that is happening today. Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 3:30 pm New Experiments: Marcella Durand on Ecological Poetry Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 Marcella Durand writes: "Ecological poetry is much like ecological living?it recycles materials, functions with an intense awareness of space, seeks an equality of value between all living and unliving things, explores multiple perspectives as an attempt to subvert the dominant paradigms of mono-perception, consumption and hierarchy, and utilizes powers of concentration to increase lucidity and attain a more transparent, less anthropocentric mode of existence." Join us as she speaks about these issues in terms of younger contemporary writers including Lisa Jarnot, Eleni Sikelianos, Lisa Robertson and Lytle Shaw. Durand is the author of Western Capital Rhapsodies (Faux Press, 2001) and two chapbooks, City of Ports and Lapsus Linguae (Situations Press). A new chapbook, The Geometrics, is forthcoming this year from BeautifulSwimmer Press. She is the poetry editor of (the invisible city), an anthology of art and poetry inspired by Italo Calvino?s Invisible Cities. Saturday, October 5, 2002 at 3:30 pm New Experiments: K. Silem Mohammad on Lyric Equivalence Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 Saturday, November 23, 2002 at 3:30 pm New Experiments: Arielle Greenberg on the Gurlesque Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:40:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Open call for Manuscripts: Futurepoem books Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear list: Futurepoem books announces a reading period for manuscripts for the 2003/2004 publication year. Details are below. Best, Dan Machlin ************************************************* ANNOUNCING READING PERIOD FOR FALL 2003/SPRING 2004 PUBLICATIONS Futurepoem books, a new NYC-based publishing collective, will be accepting completed, unpublished manuscripts of innovative poetry and shorter prose with postmarks between October 1, 2002 and December 1, 2002. Two manuscripts will be selected for publication during this reading period by a rotating editorial panel, final decisions announced by end of March 2003, and books published in the following Fall and Spring (2003/2004). We cannot publish books longer than 200 pages at this time; manuscripts should take that maximum length into account. The editorial panel for the 2003/2004 publication year will be: Laird Hunt, Brenda Coultas, Anselm Berrigan & Dan Machlin. Please mail submissions (no email submissions please) to: Futurepoem books P.O. Box 34 New York, NY=A0 10014 For manuscript return, please enclose an self-addressed envelope with prope= r postage, and for notification of manuscript receipt enclose a self-addresse= d stamped postcard.=20 For more information visit the futurepoem site: http://www.futurepoem.com Questions, comments: Email: submissions@futurepoem.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Saturday 9/21: M Durand on Ecological Poetry opens SPT's new New Experiments series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the record. There are many great writers who were born in the 50's, who were buried under the shadow of the Beat writers, New York School Writers, and writers of the San Francisco Renaissance. While I applaud any reason for a gathering of poets and celebration of any age group of writers, I think it is a mistake to make this assumption that the poetry stage has been dominated by Baby Boomer(and older). Again, kids, dogs, cats and snakes should be celebrated for their work, but maybe, there also needs to also be an investigation into those writers in the shadows who never really got a great chance to be celebrated as lights of creativity. And if you didn't enter the academy there was no forum at all. Any thoughts on who those poets might be? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Small Press Traffic" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Saturday 9/21: M Durand on Ecological Poetry opens SPT's new New Experiments series > New Experiments: > Emerging Patterns in Innovative Literature by Authors Born in the 1960s and > 1970s, Elucidated by Themselves > New Experiments, which will continue next spring and beyond, aims to map new > ways of reading, and to put a new generation on those maps. > Join us for three Saturdays this fall, as we inaugurate this special series, > curated by Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson. > In a recent letter to the Poetry Project Newsletter , Boston poet and editor > Jim Behrle made a call to innovative writers of the Baby Boomer (and older) > generation to "give the kids a chance". Small Press Traffic?s New Experiments > series will do just that. New Experiments will explore critical (though not > necessarily academic) ways of understanding writing that is being created now > by younger experimental poets and prose writers. These critical understandings > will be generated by the practitioners themselves in concert with the > presentation of new works by themselves and others. > These writers could be referred to as heirs of Language poetry, New Narrative, > New York School, and other fairly recently established categories, but our > idea is to seek out understandings of how far and wide -- and oddly, randomly, > anarchically through bumpy history -- their inheritances truly go and work. We > are also interested in exploring the contexts in which this writing is made > today, and the contemporary forces that shape it. Small Press Traffic is > interested in maintaining our position as an important venue for the latest in > writing by helping a diverse group of talented and committed poets and writers > under the age of forty-five -- most under thirty-five -- to create new works > and to discuss emerging patterns in the literature of their generation. > We are interested in how political and societal concerns and pop- and other > cultural influences function in the writing of this new generation, the what > and why of their aesthetics, and patterns in same that seem to each of the > invited writers to be appearing. New Experiments is devoted to finding out how > a diverse group of active writers and cultural workers see things; not in > creating new "schools" per se, but in creating new ways of reading and > understanding experimental writing that is happening today. > > > Saturday, September 21, 2002 at 3:30 pm > New Experiments: Marcella Durand on Ecological Poetry > Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 > > Marcella Durand writes: "Ecological poetry is much like ecological living?it > recycles materials, functions with an intense awareness of space, seeks an > equality of value between all living and unliving things, explores multiple > perspectives as an attempt to subvert the dominant paradigms of > mono-perception, consumption and hierarchy, and utilizes powers of > concentration to increase lucidity and attain a more transparent, less > anthropocentric mode of existence." Join us as she speaks about these issues > in terms of younger contemporary writers including Lisa Jarnot, Eleni > Sikelianos, Lisa Robertson and Lytle Shaw. > > Durand is the author of Western Capital Rhapsodies (Faux Press, 2001) and two > chapbooks, City of Ports and Lapsus Linguae (Situations Press). A new > chapbook, The Geometrics, is forthcoming this year from BeautifulSwimmer > Press. She is the poetry editor of (the invisible city), an anthology of art > and poetry inspired by Italo Calvino?s Invisible Cities. > > > Saturday, October 5, 2002 at 3:30 pm > New Experiments: K. Silem Mohammad on Lyric Equivalence > Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 > > > > Saturday, November 23, 2002 at 3:30 pm > New Experiments: Arielle Greenberg on the Gurlesque > Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 > > > > All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are > free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. > Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in > Timken Lecture Hall > California College of Arts and Crafts > 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & > Wisconsin) > > > Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director > Small Press Traffic > Literary Arts Center at CCAC > 1111 - 8th Street > San Francisco, California 94107 > http://www.sptraffic.org > 415-551-9278 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:16:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: sentimentality for Bob Grumman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: sentimentality for Bob Grumman (who said:) > > Here's a thought for everybody to explode over: any poem that doesn't > > greatly risk sentimentality is crap. > > I thought of you, Bob, last night while I was driving to Blockbuster and > the following Neil Diamond song came on the radio. (I often listen to > "great soft hits--where the classics never go out of style.") I hope I won't hurt your feelings, Aaron, but I also think a poem that doesn't do anything BUT risk sentimentality is crap, too. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:23:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Small Press Traffic Book Awards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE SMALL PRESS TRAFFIC BOOK AWARDS This year, the Small Press Traffic board of directors begins a new tradition with the SPT Book Awards. Compiled from a list of board members? favorite books of 2001 plus a lifetime achievement category, the award recipients recall to us the best possibilities of energy, engagement, intelligence and imagination in the writing that SPT works to cultivate and promote. This year?s honorees are presented below in alphabetical order, followed by the lifetime achievement winner. Dodie Bellamy?s Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons) works at what is often an impasse in writing about sex, pushing the usual confessional scene beyond the institutional and rhetorical horizons that often ensure its triumph over the matter confessed. Organs, surfaces and fluids act in this book in such profusion and with such rapid syntactic enjambment that no decision can assign their parts to stable subjects for very long. Relocating this "moment of decision" to the interior of each sentence and body, Bellamy shifts the ethical demand of confession from the "penitent"/narrator to the "confessor"/auditor, ensuring that the reader plays along and that judgments regarding sex and writing are formed in the act, not in an exempt outside. Along very different lines, this refusal of exemption characterizes Judith Goldman?s Vocoder (Roof), a rambunctious book of some terrifying wrath and fury. Words just don?t do what they should, neither will human beings. Poetry can?t disguise any longer the need for an adequate politics, a need as basic as the need for air and water. There?s so much to admire in Vocoder -- the attention Goldman pays to codes of all sorts, the 19th century refusal to sit back and take it, the "no in thunder" voice we have missed since the original American Renaissance. We put this high on our list of this year?s best books for its originality, daring, passion and relentless call to justice. (Goldman will read at SPT with Chelsey Minnis on November 15.) The flipside of such commitment is that tried and true postmodern poetics which finds a world of fragments ready to hand for inclusion in form as an administrative schema, or one-dimensionally volatized into a metaphorics of flux. Faced with such options, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk?s Ogress Oblige (Krupskaya) would prefer not to, defiantly occupying the hidden abode of the fragmentís production. Here archaic dictions plead for an authorizing literary context under bombardment from a contemporary vernacular of blunt refusal and blank disgust, while the bigger bombs of geopolitics fall as a catch in our small-time bohemian drifts. Lusk?s method stutters us back to the sites of interpellation, refusing to forget the violence of those moments whose repression is all too often the ground of prosody. Surplus -- as expropriated value, as excess, as remainder -- refuses to be siphoned off, and spare parts blurt out a general strike against the sutured whole. Kim Rosenfield?s Good Morning-- Midnight-- (Roof), at its core, challenges the separation of pleasure and social critique. Here feminist theory simultaneously picks apart a feast of fashion and (gendered) self-help discourse while taking delight in the festivities. Rosenfield's is a carnivalesque aesthetic that combines a strong ear for the pure pop of advertising lingo and a surgeon's touch when it comes to cut'n'pasting. She avoids easy moralizing over consumerism and media, implicating our own appetites within the omnipresent public discourse of commodity aesthetics. In Jocelyn Saidenberg?s Cusp (Kelsey St.), position is implicated in the critical turn that would dislocate it. There is such sobriety, such a questioning concern for what is necessary and justifiable in these poems -- also doubt as to how to determine such necessity ñ that one is tempted to consider Cusp a dark book, at least a somber one. But this is that rare type of darkness that steadies and reminds the mind, the opposite of what is easy and therefore forgettable. Cusp reads as the pure product of a specific dynamic: the one that exists between trying to see things (or words) at the level of their form, while still striving to recall their practical application. (For more on Cusp, see Camille Roy?s review in this issue). Finally, SPT?s board members are pleased to name Carl Rakosi as the inaugural recipient of our Lifetime Achievement Award. His early appearance in An Objectivist Anthology situates him in a strain of American modernism whose clarity of method and depth of ethical and political engagement exert a profound influence on all sorts of poetic endeavor today. His commitment to the demands of such work is evident through his celebrated New Directions publications, Amulet (1967), and Ere-Voice (1971), and continues into two beautiful recent titles published by Etruscan Books, The Earth Suite (1997) and The Old Poet?s Tale (1999). Throughout, Rakosi has worked not so much after Pound?s "make it new," as after the imperative to make it exact -- both precise and exacting. Perhaps the best characterization of his work remains that offered by George Oppen, introducing Rakosi at a March 12, 1975 reading for the Poetry Center: "It seems to me that Rakosi is the most polished of poets, but his is a strange and unheard of polish, made of distance and intimacy, marvelously elegant: a place few have been carried to." Compiled by Taylor Brady, David Buuck, Norma Cole, Brent Cunningham, and Kevin Killian, with thanks to the SFSU Poetry Center. Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:22:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: sentimentality for Bob Grumman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I hope I won't hurt your feelings, Aaron, but I also think a poem that > doesn't do anything BUT risk sentimentality is crap, too. Ah, Bob! I am trapped between your dictums. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:26:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the Buffalo list In-Reply-To: <002901c25e7e$c48165e0$a84efea9@j1c1k6> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A lot of people have been wondering: that alleged terrorist cell that was apprehended in a Buffalo suburb-are these guys on the lost? -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:36:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, the advertisers' emphasis is on *productivity increase, a rather doubtful proposition in the usually portrayed context of management, as if it were *creativity; and it isn't L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damian Judge Rollison" To: Sent: 18 September 2002 18:33 Subject: Re: Mentioning hitler | Now this is intriguing. Isn't it the case generally that | artists are more willing to mine the potential of | "obsolete" technologies than anyone else -- so that Alan, | your use of a 1987 machine would roughly correspond, | allowing for the accelerated history of computer as medium, | to book artists' use of letterpress printing in recent | decades. Though anyone with coding experience knows the | benightedness of, for example, HTML -- its avoidance of the | content model, compatibility problems, oversimplicity -- | it's probably true that as a poetic medium HTML is far from | exhausted. Same goes for UNIX and for old processors. This | is in part a rebuke of Jesse's position. Artists who employ | computers can in fact gesture toward a slowing down or even | a reversal of the goosestep march toward bigger and better | machines. And this speaks to the question of craft -- | whether a particular piece takes minutes or hours to | compose is beside the point: it's the process of feeling | around in the medium that matters, trying new combinations, | discovering and refining, not throwing out baby w/ | bathwater when the next model goes on sale. It's heartening | to think of, because we're certainly encouraged by Gates et | alia to always be breathlessly anticipating the cutting | edge, and to think that technology's past is less | interesting than yesterday's news. | | -- Damian | | | | On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:23:33 -0400 Alan Sondheim | wrote: | | > Just a couple of things. Most of the writing I do is either on an old 133 | > Mhz Pentium I that I found for $10 (with linux on it). It takes hours and | > hours to write the programs and hours to write the pieces, for better or | > worse. | > | > If I'm doing 3d animation/video, then I do need, and use, big machines; | > every artist does. But what's sent to the list literally can be done on a | > 286 from 1987 with a dialup modem (and in fact I've done this as well). | > | > Alan | > | > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt | > Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html | > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm | > CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com | | <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< | damian judge rollison | department of english | university of virginia | djr4r@virginia.edu | >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 19:46:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (by the way, not like Cage at all; the effects are calculated, and serve as catalysts only - I hope the explanation below will give you some idea - Alan) Cien2 Su4 Vun2 (Hakka) Inversion - [Ellen Zweig and I continue the translation of the 1000 Character Classic. In the Chinese examination system, the characters were used to indicate the applicant's home lane with its examination cells. Each character is used once. We translate in accordance with three dictionaries and two software programs, plus a grammar of T'ang poetry and other assorted aids. The original is in couplets; after a semi-mythological beginning, the essay settles into homilies, platitudes, proverbs, advice. It was used as a study tool, by children learning the characters for the first time. Here, we find our own rhythm in translation, moving back and forth across the 4-character lines, assembling and reassembling, searching for tropes and parallels; suddenly the line is illuminated, and its aura extends to the next or previous. The characters are old-style, not simplified; many are out of date. At times, in the Japanese software, the character will be combined with another (main) radical, existing only as a subsidiary remnant. Almost never does the knowledge of radicals aid in interpretation; it seems, at least in relation to the Japanese, to be an awkward process of elimination as well as accumulation. The best search strategy is the boolean/root system in the Japanese soft- ware; this can be followed by character combinations in the Chinese soft- ware. When all else fails, a Chinese dictionary from 1930 is consulted; with its 10,000 + characters, it works well, in terms of radical and stroke count. But even here there are problems; characters within have up to 48 strokes, often drawn in a space smaller than a quarter-inch. We are un-knowing of Chinese; Ellen is studying it, and I am still use- lessly pursuing Japanese. But we enter a certain zone in this translation, a connection with something barely comprehended. For myself, the tenuous readings of the words plays into my own writing; bridging character to character is bridging English to English; it is a process of thinking into the void, not unlike the text itself. Below is an inversion study in which the translation is first reversed, then sent through software that eliminates duplicate words, then reversed again (specifically, tac -> perl program eliminating duplicates -> tac). The language slowly becomes more coherent towards the end. And we are only between a quarter and a third of the way through.] yellow :: heaven black, earth black - cosmos - are vast - desolate wasteland - moon fills - sun sets west - dusk - 7 9 morning - it's measure word, they spread line constellations - cold - comes - heat - goes - autumn - harvesting - winter - hiding, concealing - intercalary timing - leftover residue - becomes tenth - measurement years - so lu - pitches - shift position - open - clouds - ascend, galloping, - sending - rain - dew - forms - becoming - frost - gives gold - beautiful - water - emanates jade - from Kun mountain - summit - double-edged dagger - furiously named - huge - gate-tower - pearl - called - light - darkness - fruit - plum - apple - vegetables - mustard - ginger - sea - salted - rivers - fresh - fish-scales - hidden depths - feathers - circling above - fire - dragon - teaching - royal - official - beginning - making - writing - characters - then - robes uniforms, wearing - skirts < clothing - expel - throne - yield - country - yao - tang - has - predicted - console - people - strike down - guilty - hold - boundary - test scalding - trying case - at court - query - way - bequeath - bow - doubting - sections - love - raise up - hosts - leaders - minister - prostrate - army - barbarians - near - far - one - reality - ration - guest - returning to - emperor - phoenix - cries - bamboo - white - colt - grazes - there - covers - grass weeds - (vegetation) - trust - attain - a myriad (10,000) - directions (square) - covering - person - issues - (giving birth to) - four - great - five - normal - (connector / alone) - rearing - children - (!) - flattering - destroys - injures - women - adore - chastity - unyielding - imitate - pleasing - genius - know - what passes - certainty - change - attainment - ability - never - neglect - talk deception - other - brief - disintegration - reliance - self (self-reliance) - long - cause faith - should - be covered (protect your faith) - tool (utensil) - desire - (is) trouble - (quantity) measure-word - ink - (on sorrow, sadness - printed (sadness stains silk) - praise poetry - small (lamb) - sheep (sheep) - view, scenery - lines - tied lined-up - wisdom - restraint, conquering - study - makes (creates) - sage - benevolence - built - name - stands - origin - shape - proper (upright) - model - sky - valley - proclaim - (one's) fame - empty - chamber hall (public room) - learn (review lessons) - carefully - depends on (is disaster (catastrophe) - accumulation - evil - blessings (fortune) - (are caused by) - virtuous - happiness - 1/3 (scale, ruler) - bi-jade (circular disk with hole) - negative (un- ) - treasure - 1/30 meter (measurement, small) - yin (shadow, moon, sexual organs, feminine, secret) - is (just so) (to be) - emulated (compete with) - capital - father (parallels) - (business) affairs - supreme ruler - speak - strictly (accurately) - give - respect - filial piety - serves (accepts) - of power (the others) - devotion - follows (rules) - end (of) - life - face (meet, confront) - breathing out - public - rectification - fit - many - men - dwell - in leisure - the ch'in - 4-stringed instrument - good - and wonderful - question or problem - gate - [...] - as well - === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:18:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Coultas, Giscombe, Prevallet reading at the Drawing Center In-Reply-To: <15c.13b3cadc.2ab8bf73@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hi All, >Just to let you know: > >Brenda Coultas, C.S. Giscombe, Kristin Prevallet are reading 6:30 Tuesday >September 24th at The Drawing Center, which is at 35 Wooster Street (btwn >Grand and Broome). Admission is $5; free to Drawing Center members. Could you tell us what city? -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:48:56 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Headline Anagrams & The Big Unlistening Ear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clearly you could find also sorts of permutations: but what you are "playing with" there is intersting: I dont think that the US want to find Bin Laden (I think they invented him or he's an agent and is walking around New york with a completely different "look", maybe he's got some ideas from Jackson)...he's better not apprehended: just as the Soviet Union was something that the US could "spark off" before it got all wishy washy and "collapsed" now the muslims, arabs bin Laden have somewhat replaced communism as a bogey. Control of oil is a motive of all the major countries including Russia (I suspect that their interets in Nothern Iraq has "panicked " the B admin or its a factor...) in fact if the US take over in a big way they'll possibly even extract ALL the oil into the US: they will also be in a good position to control the drug industry....I dont think any body is convinced by Bush - he has nothing: he's hopeless even for the US economy: he undertaxes the rich and taxes the poor...follow him and there will be in coming times 100 times the numbers on welfare (if you have any welfare systems)... This is all probably a waste time. America is the Big Unlistening Ear with One Eye: No Man united with Cyclops and laughing as the grisle drips from the drivelling gristle..... I'm reading about and reading Pound's Cantos and can symapathise somewhat with his position vis a vis the US at that time - in hindsight. He could see the hypocrisy of US policies and the corruption of international capitalism and money lending...his anti-semitism was of course a kind of rhetoric as he had Jewish friends eg Zukofsky etc He was initially motivated by his horror of the wastage of the First World War. hence his "for an old bitch gone in the teeth..a gross of battered books, a botched civilisation,...the accelerated grimace of the age..." and the image of the dead caught on barbed wire...and so on. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Clinefelter" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:37 AM Subject: Headline Anagrams > While having my morning tea, I did some anagrams from > various media catch-phrases and headlines...make of > them what you will...... > > "Marines Looking For Osama Bin Laden" > -same old lie > -looking for oil > -looking for no one > -oil > -lame asses > -fooling no one > > "Where Are America's Allies In The War On Terror?" > -raw materials > -oil > -we're in error > -we are the terror > -we can't win > -we are alone > -Americans are silent > -another war > -more lies > > "Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction" > -waste of time > -one more war > -more crap > > "The Hunt For Terrorist Groups In America" > -it's a sham > -error > -nut cases > -no more rights > -the hunt for error > -no more thought > -no more poems > -no more poets > > > I'm sure everyone can come up with others- give it a > try. > > Jim Clinefelter > editor, Whitewall of Sound magazine > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! News - Today's headlines > http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: women in print MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out Juliana Spahr's latest- an editorial collaboration with = Claudia Rankine _American Women Poets in the 21st Century_ by Wesleyan = Univ. Press it grew out of a conference at Barnard in 1999- Where Lyric Meets = Language-=20 the book includes work samples, artist statements and critical essays on = Rae Armantrout, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, Lucie Brock-Broido, Jorie Graham, = Barbara Guest, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Susan Howe, Ann Lauterbach = and Harryette Mullen -Jane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:35:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Tysh Subject: Beladonna Reading kicks off 9/27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear List, *deadly nightshade, a cardiac and respiratory stimulant, having purplish-red flowers and black berries ENJOY BELLADONNA* AT ZINC BAR Friday, September 27 6:30 pm with CHRIS TYSH & JENNIFER MOXLEY ADDRESS/DIRECTIONS: ZINC BAR 90 W. Houston St., corner of LaGuardia Pl. (near Broadway/Lafayette subway station) 212-477-833 A $4 donation is suggested. http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES ON READERS: Chris Tysh is the author of five volumes of poetry including Continuity Girl (United Artists, 2000), In the Name (Past Tents Press, 1994), Coat of Arms (Station Hill Press, 1992), Pornē (In Camera, 1984), and Secrets of Elegance (Detroit River Press, 1981). Her work has been published widely in journals and magazines including Big Allis, Canadian Journal of Political & Social Theory, Chain, Chicago Review, Hambone, How(ever), Jacket, Lacanian Ink, Lipstick 11, New American Writing, Sun & Moon, and The World. With her husband George Tysh she has translated Guillaume Apollinaire's Julie or the Rose. She has written and performed in the poetry theater and has written critically on the work of Georges Bataille, Kathy Acker and Allen Ginsberg, amongst other topics and poetries. She teaches at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan. Jennifer Moxley's The Sense Record was published this year by Edge Books. She is also the author Enlightenment Evidence (published in French as Evidence des Lumieres) and Imagination Verses (Tender Buttons, 1996). She has published several chapbooks including most recently "A Personal Reminiscence Chronicling the First Documented Case of 'The Waldrop Effect" (Orono: private, 2001). She is the translator from French of The Translation Begins (La Traduction Commence) by Jacqueline Risset. Moxley's poetry can be found in a wide array of small independent, experimental poetry magazines, one of which, The Impercipient, she herself founded and edited. Currently she edits The Baffler, and teaches at the University of Maine in Orono. Belladonna* is a feminist/innovative reading and publication series that promotes the work of women writers who are adventurous, experimental, politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, impossible to define, delicious to talk about, unpredictable, dangerous with language. In its two year history, BELLADONNA* has featured such writers as Erica Hunt, Fanny Howe, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Cecilia Vicuña, Lisa Jarnot, Camille Roy, Nicole Brossard, Abigail Child, Norma Cole and Lynne Tillman among many other experimental and hybrid women writers. Beyond being a platform for women writers, the curators promote work that is experimental in form, connects with other art forms, and is socially/politically active in content. Alongside the readings, BELLADONNA* supports its artists by publishing commemorative pamphlets of their work on the night of the event. Please contact Rachel Levitsky (levitskrachel@yahoo.com) and/or visit the website if you would like to receive a catalog or hear more about our salons. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginie/Glaviaux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed One line says I am walled in light where the song is shot into my eyes and the dust I clean my sugar with lies in another line and the photographs tucked into your dressing-room mirror are from where I forgot the words But not everything is a plea for the temporal and the silver dollars in that two-storey brick home down the road are / blonde curls or blue notes, things which never needed are still there (simple Even the lowest strata give way to foundation. we open wide the sense of either side) One line says I am walled in light where the song is shot into my eyes and the dust I clean my sugar with lies in another line and the photographs tucked into your dressing-room mirror are from where I forgot the words But not everything is a plea for the temporal and the silver dollars in that two-storey brick home down the road are / blonde curls or blue notes, things which never needed are still there (simple Even the lowest strata give way to foundation. we open wide the sense of either side) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:16:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Re: Coultas, Giscombe, Prevallet reading at the Drawing Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hi All, >Just to let you know: > >Brenda Coultas, C.S. Giscombe, Kristin Prevallet are reading 6:30 Tuesday >September 24th at The Drawing Center, which is at 35 Wooster Street (btwn >Grand and Broome). Admission is $5; free to Drawing Center members. Could you tell us what city? -- George Bowering No fries. No doughnuts. Fax 604-266-9000 Opps, Sorry, NYC. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:17:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Would Conclude These Points Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A vagrant breaks out in beads of occasional congregation frequent manuscript and her neck an ancestral home for such dazzlement, in receipt of contradictory passing through a second edition of this voluptuary good-natured holiday gains no particular hearing taking slices, a full-dress paste lopping off its countrymen lesser lights, lords and women feel the sting of makeshift rounds, shipwrecks are often facts of expensive simplicity these entertainers of the fourth act must be middle-age before the service can only end through the body Such punishments were adopted by royalty Pyrrhic language a fact of human arrangement debunking of association cultivates exchange magnetic syntax ignorant of the hounds the early lyrics have a certain plausibility your revelatory pledge comments on goatish paradox fall victim to merriment, talk of virtue retrospectively coming out of court with no rewards to do her justice it is said the scene is nearly suffocated, fur afloat adultery purchased your sententious task, so colossal sense It's the sky all over again, overgrown with space short of memory at first, before coercion ends thus children could stand opposition to sagacity hierarchy had been due for a quarter of a canto also committed to lucrative revolution, onward the report by no means breaks off, abolition of the public information supplied delegations with close quarter quiescence moderating a grand scale absorption the machine was made to raise funds, supping circles taken as an insurrection, a lucrative Harrison Correspondence relating to success publicly doubled heavy questions a further installment of silence some canons allowed placards, fundamental consideration remained least, initiative disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue, conflict sedulous inadequacy leatherbound accent, the linchpin of a different slope the watchword is seamless, we used to remember hoarding how could you see a pattern from voice to minx shortages would follow pictures, frolicking understanding and vice-versa, why on earth are tears billowing A corpse was doubled to divide its eternal reward lamentable disinheritance compiles the attempt as turned, whipcord impossible to make satisfied ordinary confirmation resuscitated to get up and dye your coasting verse a thorough compliance roofed-over examination a fortunate choice avoiding cordials and habituations in turn, save us the embodiments of pageantries well within the mar of thralldom, denominate several English lines well-pleased with room to doubt, conclude these points Elopement bred on the wind, assure yourself that with loud pledges of performance materials are overawed enough of these pledges will land you a World's Re no longer entirely without warning, play a game storm and drying nets over two youths hardly broken that beautiful pale face is my fate, substance scowling ourselves, Bohemia was a place where the girls got as soon as possible, many books under her fingers, closing sounds are jarring to some, elements make promises, Klezmorim are long gone, never to return from the courts at Syracuse Contempt biting her lip, document styled the whole place recent cloven eagerness inspired permission, to this despondency without any account, conjoined specimens turning bounteous policy redounded to spacious name, at least permanent accommodation a verbal charity, that famous version plain poesy treacherously an inkling departed, reminded of submissives grant autobiographical reserve, preserve my future condition omitting modification, firm character that slays them, you, Heather, you are caught in this cycle foreather whether you keep swimming right around, or shy away like thunder A daub denying a daub in favor of a daub, civilization rolls on on when heart shall be in this lean religion, humiliation would have amours, promises before you part, win a thousand contradictions to pass, no other prodigality keepsake the efficacy of pining and disrest demanded guest an appeal to unnatural errata sets down animosities swarm for that hunger and proportion, death shades a to the woods I contrived peril, much scribbled for maintain a claim until acquiescence is sent back you find you are bought with money, scarce daub _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:54:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: Headline Anagrams In-Reply-To: <20020917173731.86645.qmail@web14502.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit computer-assisted anagram hunting... (diaphanous stammering scattergun) On 17/9/02 at 10.37a, Jim Clinefelter (cmdrray@YAHOO.COM) said: >"Marines Looking For Osama Bin Laden" "Alien Religions Abandon Ammo Forks" >"Where Are America's Allies In The War On Terror?" "Alien Secrets Ameliorate Arrow-hewn Harrier" >"Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction" "Quadratic Sons of Sorest Penis Maw" >"The Hunt For Terrorist Groups In America" "Authentic Profitters Measure Horror" >I'm sure everyone can come up with others- give it a >try. "Ten genetic war yeshivas, our yttrium voices peer: OHM." --Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:32:51 -1000 Reply-To: Bill Luoma Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: lucrative Harrison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jefferson, i have been wondering about your models. here is one of mine. it proposes to look at a truer form of composition. it can compose in three seconds. it has pictures and underlining too. http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu:8993/Default.html it even has a jsp-like interface if you'd like to design your own landing page. let me know. as the current reference implementation is really lacking. best to you an yours, Bill Luoma (requires solaris 8, 4GB memory, 4 sparc processors, 1 terrabyte of disk space) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:07:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: request for info on The Conversions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Laird: The Fall 1987 Review of Contemporary Fiction (vol. 7, no. 3: Elmwood Park, IL) had a 226-page tribute to Harry Mathews,--- with interviews by John Ash and John Ashbery, and more than a dozen essays by the likes of Edmund White, Barbara Guest, W.C. Bamberger (who has done a similar book-sized bibliography and tribute to Kenward Elmslie), etc.,--- including Barrett Watten's notes on a 4-day symposium Mathews gave in San Francisco. Tomasz Mirkowicz, who translated ~The Conversions~ into Polish, has a 10-page essay exclusively on that novel. In it, he makes a great deal of claiming that scene after scene are based on Rousselian traces of the Romance word "alba" (white): the Gypsies who ravaged the Silver Glen uprooted the clematis there (botanical name: Clematis vitALBA, a sort of surrogate for Frazer's mistletoe); the color-blind Mr. Wayl thinks the narrator has purple eyes (i.e., is an ALBino); Mirkowicz takes the "noddy" that appears to Williaus in the Arctic ("almost certainly") to be an ALBAtross; the chain attaching Wayl's detonating watch from waistcoat pocket to button would have been an ALBert; Felix's invention depends on the reflective power of ALBedo; etc., etc., etc., with alba "hypogrammes" in Spanish and German, too. (Some of Mirkowicz's "evidence" falters under the [good, creative] weight of his own seeming obsessivism, but . . . Mirkowicz had interviewed Mathews three years previous and admits to no contradiction by him.) ". . .at one point the dismayed narrator finally exclaims, 'Enough of Alva!'" Similarly, the earls of Mar: Johnstone's experiments involve MARiotte's law; "pyrites crystals" are known as MARcasites. Mirkowicz focusses a lot on mythological White Goddess clues throughout ~The Conversions.~ (Ergo, ~The Golden Bough,~ of course.) The (second) only adze engraving left unexplained in the novel portrays the moon goddess Selene. The Hekate Triple Goddess is encoded into the name of Miss Gabrielle Dryrein of 2890 Valentine Avenue: "drei" (Ger., "three) - "rein" (Fr., "queen"). The many (dentata) "beautifully colored oval shells with a narrow opening with toothlike protrusions along the edges" are Cypraeida shells, sacred to Venus, who was know as Cypria. The festschrift provides other, diverse angles and details into sleuthing out Mathews, and it concludes with ---as of 1987--- a comprehensive bibliography on him: the secondary sources (reviews) for ~The Conversions~ include Anthony Burgess, Howard Nemerov, and Terry Southern. Interesting details: in the Ash interview, Mathews points out that the color sequence established during the worm race recurs throughout the book. His Italian translator found the end-of-book revelation that the narrator is a mulatto so upsetting that she gave the secret away in her introduction, because she "couldn't stand the idea" of people being surprised that way. In the Ashbery interview, ---which is enchanting for their old pal good-natured ribbing of each other (Ashbery mainly ribbing the supremely aristocratic and more patricianly restrained Mathews)--- he identifies his writing ("the movement is what matters, rather than whatever is being said") with a quote from the English composer Birtwhistle: you could change all the notes in it and it would still be the same piece. (The Roussel that Mathews says was his model is Roussel's play, ~Poussiere de soleils.~) Let me know if you can't find the issue. (I'm reporting from a copy I checked out from the library, ---out of collegiality toward your request. I twice scoured the entire half dozen bookshelves throughout my living room, hall, and wardrobe room, unsuccessful! at finding the copy I bought off the stands back when; but I know I still have it here somewhere. New York Public Library apparently has it, too.) Jeff P.S. You have quite the "bedroom voice" in the Immanent Audio sound clips at http://www.morningred.com/immanentaudio/peruse.html . :) ------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:27:45 EDT From: Brenda Coultas Subject: request for info on The Conversions HI All, This is a request I'm passing on for Laird Hunt: "I wonder if anyone out there could direct me to (or provide me with) info on The > Conversions by Harry Matthews. I am specifically interested in the Oulipian > techniques employed in it. The Oulipo Compendium refers to it as partially > Oulipian, but doesn't elaborate (or if it does I couldn't find where). Any > info would be very much appreciated. It's a novel I love but have never, > until now, had to teach. > > Best wishes, > > Laird Hunt > (Lairdhunt@aol.com)" __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 05:17:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Reply to Tracy: Headline Anagrams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Tracy, I have written many anagrams over the years, the term anagram should really be renamed "Antigram" as most anagrams appear opposite in meaning to the original word or sentence. I wrote an 11 line poem-anagram in 1992 which was called "Poseidon's Spider" it was published in my 1996 poetry book which also features Lipograms, and univocalics. If you would like a copy of Poseidon's Spider just write back to me . By the way did you know that the name "Suez" is the name "Zeus" spelled backwards? Regards Tony Follari NZ Comedian/Poet/Artist _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:42:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Open Call for Manuscripts: Futurepoem books In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ANNOUNCING READING PERIOD FOR FALL 2003/SPRING 2004 PUBLICATIONS Futurepoem books, a new NYC-based publishing collective, will be accepting completed, unpublished manuscripts of innovative poetry and shorter prose with postmarks between October 1, 2002 and December 1, 2002. Two manuscripts will be selected for publication during this reading period by a rotating editorial panel, final decisions announced by end of March 2003, and books published in the following Fall and Spring (2003/2004). We cannot publish books longer than 200 pages at this time; manuscripts should take that maximum length into account. The editorial panel for the 2003/2004 publication year will be: Laird Hunt, Brenda Coultas, Anselm Berrigan & Dan Machlin. Please mail submissions (no email submissions please) to: Futurepoem books P.O. Box 34 New York, NY=A0 10014 For manuscript return, please enclose an self-addressed envelope with prope= r postage, and for notification of manuscript receipt enclose a self-addresse= d stamped postcard.=20 For more information visit the futurepoem site: http://www.futurepoem.com Questions, comments: Email: submissions@futurepoem.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Palm Subject: FW: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Kristin Palm Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:34:12 -0400 To: Poetics List Subject: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process Having just begun an MFA program, I am incredibly interested in this thread, and here is the question with which I am currently struggling: how can I be a productive member of the workshop? The instructor is decidedly steering us away from traditional workshop modes, even tactfully fighting certain students' suggestions that we adopt a more traditional workshop model (more in terms of procedures, as opposed to discussion, I suppose, and some of whom are probably reading this), emphasizing reading outside work as much as, if not more than, traditional "workshopping," so I feel we're off to a good start. An excellent one, really, in my mind. Now, what can I do to help this along, make this a productive experience for me and for those to whom I offer comments? (We're working towards answers to this in class as well, but I'm curious what list members think). Case in point: Although I entered the workshop (and the program) completely down with the idea of eschewing traditional workshop bullshit, I believe my first actual "critical" comment in the class was "I'm not so sure about this second to last line." (And I do believe there are cases where this comment is relevant, maybe this was even one of them, but that's perhaps beside the point) So, I've obviously got some serious de-programming of my own to do. I did graduate to posing the question last week as to how we might usefully "criticize" a less narrative, much denser piece. We spent some time just talking about the inner workings of the piece, the effect of each word in connection with the others, the significance of the undertaking of the specific poem at all but I felt an internal pressure to offer some "constructive criticism." Perhaps this is not nearly as useful as I have been taught it is, however? Perhaps it is better to just talk about what we see/hear/experience before us, how the poem is situated in a larger context (of what? the world? depends on the piece, I suppose) and then leave it at that, trusting that the process is much more internal and, dare I say it, organic than any traditional workshop model would ever lead us to believe? Given that the program I'm in is geared toward a more experimental model, I'm especially interested in Kasey's example #3, Commodified Alternativity. How does one identify this (esp. in one's own writing -- another struggle du jour) and thoughtfully deal w/ it in a workshop? Were I infinitely well-versed in various schools of experimental poetics, critical theory, the works, I guess I'd feel more confident in making the distinction between genuine/imitative (commodified). But I've read and heard enough to look at/hear a lot of what's out there and think, "I've seen this a million times already," so I guess that's a starting point. But here's another quandary: oftentimes when I think that, it's not when I'm evaluating my classmates' work, but the work of more "established" writers being held up as models in the latest de riguer journals and readings, for example. I mean, aren't there times when an experiment by a first-year MFA student for some reason holds little currency, but the same experiment by, say, someone whose been around St. Mark's for some time (say, between two and forty years -- and I only choose St. Mark's as it's such an easy example) is bestowed with a certain 'legitimacy.' Which is the true alternative and which is the commodity? How do we decide? All in all, I'd say I'm working myself toward some answers (but only some!) just by writing this (which perhaps affirms the notion that 'process' trumps 'craft'), but I'm very curious as to what others think and interested in (even hungry for) feedback. kp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:04:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: teddy warburg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0009 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com/atmosphere/atmosphere0009.html Gesu! hexagonal perforations Accurately fitting plungers education thrown away yearly colleges man great weight society generally vague sense though restricted members the dinner combined with taste her licking elevator stopped further still remember neighbourhood for who told him the impending repeal out couple months those whose spelling Representation the defence Dr Christopher Potter provost Queen's Horace was ten years carriages education thrown away yearly colleges man great weight society philosophical thesis basis science Yoga raised revolt Ferghana the more important its industries One enjoyed shared Seeland Geological smoothly caresses his afternoon ladies you against the Shi'ites Topographical unto Moses will thing also thou hast spoken thou hast found New keep with you two gorgeous illumination perfection The ecclesiastical earthly quickly audrey reached down The prophet thereupon set ease yet already six months date letter another year bring God's warm-blooded animals have arisen from cumming she looked to keep the tyranny which she rolled him over Staatsanzeiger Duncker Historische Zeitschrift poking in aimed submachine gun flashlight Simon's bloody body lay twisted ought ashamed yourself--unchanging experience fullness peace joy other hand present sneaking round! ought ashamed yourself! pardon subject scarcely nature permit discussion child found talk married civil ceremony six months pregnant Stanhope His death was overwhelming grief circuit has several Blood Lamb word testimony testify keep low Divine Presence feet intimate belong the house Ali is ran fingers her enlist again when her purchase from the latter the freedom the pilgrimage Mecca his thighs slapping though his occupied WAsit The empire the hair washing away traces him lighter fromgold Before the introduction who had stood great esteem with is line often he rode from one patient touched vagina many that the whole Kharijite had assumed the title Prince the Believers police anyways renae Yeah Know Joe remember who dealing Two people who dealt clones her northern Russia - J'-f ! . clare started sucking Springfield Granviile the seat Denison University the discovery gunpowder From modern researches seems more hjriipe which has spend night not thrive it manured For the production fine show down us tell you Saphar October Reign Mostakfi -As successor Motasim incomplete primal moan scream belong the house Ali is ran fingers her enlist again when Once speaking CIA exist looking me she smiles for the greater part signed great part with be distinguished from the more general identical physical way may more subtle mental way happens within four seemed lost year revival the Bath the red riband was offered him but was Heaven directed rescue gives Merj Rahit had been revived The orthodox faith green bottle such beyond want embrace people who different Dana revisited the lend now judy soon groaning loudly Jenny broke kiss also named his brother Hasan expected that the Mahdi would formerly the seat the caliph till when Façll Rabi got his place thong panties the century They had great often mentioned said mother differed all other mothers seen for the regular visiting nights insisted credit cards together with the most England the Chartist movement was which caused him be ostracized year ordered twenty pipes willow charcoal smoothly caresses his afternoon ladies you against the Shi'ites moved through its respective published the first edition his resolved his death Some historians say that had already silky work The Dechaux Thionville March ith paused let calculation sink home elects Maywick! elect Maywick ten Francisco situated large bay discovered Sir Francis Drake lat º later ma'am looking toy tonight you smallest her preferred the living Upminster Essex accompanied Lord Hopton near EELS legitimate election authority the Omayyads had not been Lab force projection function wear something nice get the prosperity Syracuse during his rule given the with small soft licks sought Abü Tammam compiling his others The best and most down from breasts toward suffered him that has Genealogiae Hyginus tell you Saphar October Reign Mostakfi -As successor Motasim unknown grammarian who added you last night when you punishment without complaint the Turkish want okay? mind ever gross refined yet even amongst called civilised educated people the unity things instinctively rebelled dicks belong the house Ali is ran fingers her enlist again when their clits pungent odors Phillip's Christ constituted Peter prince whole Church promised give keys slithering lewdly tightly ovaled lips stung flared nostrils held her commandments the Book God and rules she condo felt slap his hand took position obedience the Imam and place their lives and property his time man ballot line often he rode from one patient touched vagina many that the so-called notables powers Joyce nodded wardens bring out his very playful smoothly caresses his afternoon ladies you against the Shi'ites former Okay stick fingers dormitory being discovered boys allowed case thought sending pussy will fuck yourself few times move receiver down pussy brought the Medinians were false kneels between legs her Ladies hear supra smiled known decided her full bladder officer hate trouble Dee six subject sound grunt satisfaction each side her panties review the financial situation which the Francisco situated large bay discovered Sir Francis Drake lat º suck these boys? murmured situated narrow fertile valley the Western Cordillera how expand thing that first step the rate burning that shall slow first smoothly caresses his afternoon ladies you against the Shi'ites more thought wanted occupied WAsit The empire the hair washing away traces him place sensation doctor canon law nurse brought morning said guys get together familiar objects seemed remembered better those other place her nicely rounded grand pianoforte Bach's harpsichord preserved the --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/10/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:08:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: gretchen haitink MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit GRETCHEN HAITINK SPANK or TOTAL AQUACULTURE EXTINCTION #144 [excerpt] http://www.atlantic-ploughshares.com/gretchenhaitink/tae/tae144.html entered felt arm shoulder ecological field studies Alvar Nuñez tells Commentaries appropriate management needed rest stop horror found swaying spreading doorstep Tennessee Battles Richmond lady night know course rough ready contrivances found look cavalier accentuates designate zones where lofty airs these patricians cuts brought right arm up suspicions Alvar Nuñez tells Commentaries scripture rough ready contrivances found enjoyed best health deep- felt panties speed down legs down beginning present century thy included system insofar remarks rough ready contrivances found against Jesuits L considered Telford included system insofar Batch dried eyes bade settled down farmer Eskdale glanced down make sure showing girl shewed proclaim seventeen huge foreign policy United States drawings saw still standing shadow wall dripping cheek against get lonely boy gloating sadistic glee estates belonged forming part recapitulation same items looked up Dangling front opportunities exploit vast new waiting sign hissing bridling snake Why drinking fiery wines needed rest stop horror found accordance scene June beautiful girls effectual method bridging Malcolm family both whom rose head sumptuous board placed investigating Oh thanks lot Mike sophie fetters feet chief gaoler throughout most region east looked up Dangling front too valuable too constantly rights may patented provisions writing all those who treat foreign policy United States room let murderer who awaiting make happiness complete three throughout most region east danger Between hill attractive Bernardino made remarkable girl life work laid down staff Malcolm family both whom rose mature timber therefrom may proclaim seventeen huge seems most probable failed see estates belonged forming part drinking fiery wines suffered rough ready contrivances found designate zones where color palette boy knew some spoke proclaim seventeen huge rough ready contrivances found touching proclaim seventeen huge Yes mineral interest surrounded Mohammedan does well forcing needed rest stop horror found financed plans Alvar Nuñez tells Commentaries repay advances made pursuant Corps Armies Cumberland country-seats Tudor house schools total per pupil rough ready contrivances found rights may patented provisions needed rest stop horror found finery none judge one make Jackson defrayed principal mineral interest surrounded Corps Armies Cumberland anticipating preventing watching lockhart finding persons capable building bridges making roads rough ready contrivances found buried deep throat Jim took make happiness complete three needed rest stop horror found saddam hussein room somewhere fuck Everyone Acts amendatory thereof estates belonged forming part Commissario Maestre de Campo politely All things considered Don every day Judge Ellicott sentiment beauty thought effectual method bridging looked up Dangling front forgotten needed rest stop horror found garcia affair rough ready contrivances found needed rest stop horror found below rushing enjoyment repay --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/10/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:49:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: FW: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kristin Palm wrote: I felt an internal pressure to offer some "constructive criticism." All in all, I'd say I'm working myself toward some answers (but only some!) just by writing this (which perhaps affirms the notion that 'process' trumps 'craft'), but I'm very curious as to what others think and interested in (even hungry for) feedback.> I Reply: I really like the slant rhyme of "craft" and "feedback" here at the end. I think it provides a sense of musical resolution to your post. So what does a writer do with that kind of information? Is this something that will make the poem stronger? And if the poem is made stronger though this . . . does that in any way help the next poem? I think the biggest problem with line criticism, or even dwelling on the "poem before us" is that, in talking about _this_ poem, the poet is overly influenced into doing this very same thing the next time. If the group likes it. I would think, perhaps, that talking about the world around the poem, or the world revealed by the poem, or "what form is this poem setting up for itself", would be more productive for the poet to hear in the long run. More aesthetics, less line talk. This all sounds so teachy though. It probably would work just as well to have people bring in poems (their only copy), burn them, and then tell them to bring the same poem back next week. That would be constructive criticism, as well. Best, JG JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:59:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Reading September 19 In-Reply-To: <200209172102.17Rw2u5163NZFji0@eagle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'll be reading with Star Black and David Lehman September 19, 6:00 p.m., at Cornelia Street Cafe, Cornelia Street, New York City. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:36:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: a poem posted earlier, sonicized Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/WhiteGrits.mp3 I posted this poem a few days ago to a few lists...here's a musical version http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:02:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LMJ Subject: black mountain college conference In-Reply-To: <200209180402.g8I42EK21203@mx2.nyu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit for those of you in and around asheville, north carolina this weekend, there is a poetry/arts conference happening -- Under the Influence A Festival Celebrating the Legacy of Black Mountain College September 19-22, 2002 in Asheville, Black Mountain, and Cullowhee, NC with performances by Lisa Jarnot, Lee Ann Brown, Pauline Oliveros, Michael Boughn, Patrick Herron, John Landry and others-- for a schedule of events, check out the festival website-- http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:04:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Poetry workshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My workshop "Translating Silences" will be offered again at Barnard College Center for Research on Women, 3009 Broadway, NYC 10027, starting October 2nd. Six Wednesdays, 6:30 to 8:00 p.m. For information, call 212-305-2067. Obviously, those of us who "teach" workshops must believe the job worth doing. I feel that feedback can generate creative energy for everyone in the room. Of course we will talk about what a particular line/word/break/space/etc. seems to do within the poem; but most of all the poet benefits from what is stimulated within each of the others. I see "poetics" as impossible without "craft." Articulating critique is, I believe, of important benefit to thinking towards one's own work. All best to all, Charlotte Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:25:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: FW: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit J Gallaher wrote: I reply, much in the fashion of J Gallaher: But this assumes that all poets in workshops try to please the rest of the poets. My experience in the NYU workshop was that, although a lot of poets were poet-pleasers, which retarded their development, there were some poets who kept trying to befuddle, to defy the standards of the group--in fact to *displease*. This often meant very unusual & unpredictable but very bad poetry. Sometimes it meant a triumph that eluded the group's radar; sometimes this, in turn, meant a recalibration of the group's radar. Sometimes it simply meant a surprising triumph. A few who escape from workshops actually benefit from it. Others--well--others continue to go to workshops wherever they can find them: conferences, community colleges, living rooms, etc. We had a person in one workshop who was older, and confessed she'd been going to workshops for years. Robert Bly asked her when she planned to start writing her own poetry! She was visibly embarrassed. I didn't think that was very nice of Robery Bly. My conclusion: all of life is a workshop, and we are but poor poem-toting students. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: So To Speak: Summer/Fall 2002 issue and annual contest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello all=2C forwarding the following publication and contest announcement=2E thanks=2C tom orange ----------- =5FSo to Speak=3A a feminist journal of language and art=5F would like to= = announce its Summer/Fall 2002 issue is now for sale and features work = by Tina Darragh=2C Hannah Weiner=2C Eleni Sikelianos=2C Catherine Daly=2C= Carol = Mirakove=2C Kristen Prevallet and many others=2E = To order this issue (=246) or a year=92s subscription (=2411) send a chec= k = made payable to So to Speak=2C 4400 University Drive=2C MSN 2D6=2C Fairfa= x=2C = VA 22030-4444=2E To be considered for our annual contest judged by Eileen Myles please = submit 3-5 poems along with a ten-dollar entry fee=2C via check or money = order made out to So to Speak=2E Postmark deadline is October 11=2E = Entrants must send duplicates of their work=2C one with entrant name and = address information alongside copies of your work without name and = address information=2C as this is a blind judging=2E Please send a cover = letter stating that this is a contest entry along with a SASE (self = addressed stamped envelope)=2E Poetry submissions are also being accepted= = outside of the contest=2E For guidelines please visit http=3A//www=2Egmu=2Eedu/org/sts or email sts=40gmu=2Eedu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:42:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: drowning in the age of midair... Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/DrowningInTheAgeOfMidAir.mp3 more poetry music... http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:50:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Reading September 27 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020918085649.00bc7c60@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I will be reading at the McGill University library in Montreal at noon on the 27th. -- George Bowering No pie. No chocolate. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:56:47 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: Reading September 27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what country is that in? George Bowering wrote: > I will be reading at the McGill University library in Montreal at > noon on the 27th. > -- > George Bowering > No pie. No chocolate. > Fax 604-266-9000 -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:32:25 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: Reading September 27 Comments: To: mIEKAL aND In-Reply-To: <3D88CC6F.EE900CE2@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Quebec On Wed, 18 Sep 2002, mIEKAL aND wrote: > what country is that in? > > George Bowering wrote: > > > I will be reading at the McGill University library in Montreal at > > noon on the 27th. > > -- > > George Bowering > > No pie. No chocolate. > > Fax 604-266-9000 > > -- > mIEKAL aND > dtv@mwt.net > > Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org > Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:05:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: New to the Small Press Traffic website... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New to the Small Press Traffic website... Reviews of books by Chelsey Minnis, Pascal Quignard, Carol Szamatowicz, Susan Thackrey, and Keith Waldrop. New writing by Lily James, Edith Jenkins, Fred Moten, Elizabeth Treadwell, and Tyrone Williams. More to come throughout the fall, including the proceedings from last spring's Indigenous Writing Now conference, an interview with SPT Lifetime Achievement Award winner Carl Rakosi, and more! http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:17:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Ed Foster MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your books arrived yesterday. Many many thanks! Jesse =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:51:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: then and now kIlL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII then and now kIlL then pulsation bodies / body pulsations equivalence shuttle-shifting /[0]+/ { print "it swelled" } /[z]+/ "or the tumor /[y]+/ "bullets moved on it" /[x]+/ shaped and grew" /[w]+/ "the shapes engorged" /[v]+/ spewed" /[u]+/ emanated from vaginal area" /[t]+/ prostate" /[s]+/ breast" /[r]+/ lungs" /[q]+/ mouth" /[p]+/ "sores across labia scrotum" /[o]+/ they distended" /[n]+/ swellings far too painful" /[m]+/ "beyond pleasure pain" /[l]+/ waves of murmurs" /[k]+/ "pain /[j]+/ "distortions movements in lozenges" /[i]+/ "coagulations bullets /[h]+/ "shuddering swollen" /[g]+/ "protruding parasitic emanations" /[f]+/ "within scent slow death" /[e]+/ lozenge life" /[d]+/ "slow bullet /[c]+/ "stuttering within stuttering without" /[b]+/ tumescence /[a]+/ pulling pure down everything /^$/ swelled it or was veering" i for = ( NF; >= 1; ) i-- )( printf "%s ",$i;printf "\n"; awk: zz:5: ^ unterminated string now of names of things, penis-strokes, pluses and minuses, the system of positive integers minus division - nothing divides - no fractions - no couplets of form (a,b) - nothing identifiable - clear-cut taxonomies of flesh in the suppurating body of george w. bush - location of daddy-daddy - the furious wronging! :there is no radiation in the black hole; there is nothing; there are no spectral emissions; no surrounding jets; there are galleries :cutting into the flesh of george w. bush < location of daddy-mommy > location of daddy-mommy-daddy - first black hole w/ no detail:NoW I wiLL kILl thEm alL:NoW I wiLL kILl thEm alL Your penises I will Kill theM ALl is on my deaths I will Kill theM ALl Your penises I will Kill theM ALl is on my deaths I will Kill theM ALl Your penises I will Kill theM ALl is on my deaths I will Kill theM ALl Your penises I will Kill theM ALl is on my deaths I will Kill theM ALl Your penises I will Kill theM ALl is on my deaths I will Kill theM ALl labor movements in of movements lozenges" lozenges" { /[i]+/ { "coagulations ofxt six monthsok for the stuff next time I' bullets and /[h]+/ "shuddering print swollen" and /[g]+/ /[g]+/-IMPORTANT_Keys for Joannaanu.edu.au/english/internet_txtite so "protruding "protruding parasitic parasitic emanations" emanations" /[f]+/95) The Blue Tapetxtlo.edu wrote:ess," one defined positively to incor W^G Get Help ^X Send ^R Rea Pine finished -- Closed f g body of george w. bush - location of daddy-daddy - the furious wronging! 4814? Yes tired you have mail in /net/u/6/s/sondheim/.mailspool/sondheimCut Text^ text is your final enunciation. for aogies O k16% ls Ma For 4 penises days, we have been growths and written. venom.ircancel N Nosign. Visiting Pr Send messa and it has taken you 4.467 minutes to write your last ... spam volt.ircper semester: intr of names of th flesh in the suppurating body of george w. bush - location of daddy-daddy tHE fUrIOuS wROngInG! === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:15:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Fw: rccs redesign Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: "david silver" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 7:33 PM Subject: rccs redesign > *** please feel free to forward *** > > Folks, > > I'm excited to report that the beta version of the new site redesign for > the Resource Center for Cyberculture Studies is up and running. > > Enjoy: http://www.com.washington.edu/rccs > > As you might notice, it is almost entirely database driven which means > that in the near future we will be able to organize the existing content, > especially the book reviews, in new and interesting ways. Moreover, two > pages -- Courses in Cyberculture and Events & Conferences -- have been > fully automated which means that users can input relevant information > regarding their own courses, events, conferences, etc. REQUEST FOR HELP: > Please visit the site and feel free to input your courses and conferences. > Thank you! > > The redesign has been a collaborative project and made possible by the > energy and ideas of many folks. First, I wish to thank Jeff Tycz, Martin > McGee, and Nectarine Design (http://www.nectarinedesign.com/) for the > principal design and programming work. > > Next, I want to thank Jerry Baldasty, Tony Giffard, and the Department of > Communication at the University of Washington who provided a Trust Fund > Award that made the design work possible. I also want to thank John > Klockner, also of UW's Department of Communication, who has been tireless > in helping to launch the site. > > I hope you enjoy the new redesign. > > david silver > http://faculty.washington.edu/dsilver/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Jackson Mac Low at 80... I was at Irving Stone's 80th birthday party at Tonic..where the food was good and John Zorn played...so i managed to miss the unendurable tedium of all the readers & perform artistes at Jack Mac's 80th... But at the apres party...i did notice that this was a group that couldn't figure out warm soda needed ice..that there wasn't one pretty girl in the room 18 to 80...& every one from Steve Clay to Lewish Warsh to yours truly was putting on weight & under lots post 9/11 pressure....happy birthday to all haveing one..DRn.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SUPERNATURAL LIFE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII SUPERNATURAL LIFE After some reflection I came to the rather startling conclusion that thoughts are as supernatural as past history after death. I simply discovered to my surprise that thinking is unnatural. I then reflected a little more and discovered that I have no day-to-day existence. It is a life-to-life existence and life is supernatural. - Clarice Lispector, Selected Cronicas, p. 77 === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:19:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: subrosa@SPEAKEASY.ORG Subject: LIST/NOISE/POME Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 THOUGH THOUGHT Everyone else, though, thought it was a bad idea Ingvil, though, thought I looked 'mysterious' and 'interesting' Many parents and teachers, though, thought Barbie should keep her mouth shut as though thought and motion had become the same thing A big part of me though thought we'd be back in a couple of days Holland, though, thought he recalled something else though thought to ward off enchantment though thought to be extinct His boss, though, thought Larry was really smart Others, though, thought there was still an element of self-protection No one, though, thought it was odd though thought to be permanent, they do not last emotion is impossible without thought, though thought is possible without emotion a few scientists at the time, though, thought that there existed exotic objects in space Jay Sekulow, though, thought he had another option Most, though, thought that death can only be physical my mind though thought the movie was great The Germans, though, thought there were only 5 terrorists when there were actually 8 the deep sea is highly diverse, though thought lifeless only a century and a half ago The folks I was with, though, thought I was incredibly humorous Even though thought is the dominant category though thought of as inefficient now, it was the standard then though thought of as merely myth The troops, though, thought it was the other way around Another possibility, though thought to be less likely at this time I have always thought myself a thief, though thought little of its meaning though thought to be a game of chance Britain though, thought that the threat of Germany had been extinguished Jack, though, thought otherwise Many individuals, though, thought the disruption was minimal Usually trustworthy though thought corrupt occasionally For instance, though thought of as "American," Heat can increase the blueness, though thought to reduce the mystical effects of the stone though thought disorder is more severe in schizophrenia Many locals though thought they'd bring energy and employment It was odd, though, thought Thelonius though thought of as a vegetable, it is a fruit... specifically a berry Many fans, though, thought the country album was a joke in itself It's as though thought is the ink in the pen of life, and we are the illustrators though thought of as an American art form Most of them though thought I was seeking a sexual encounter The other guys, though, thought it was great Pressure cookers, though thought to be old-fashioned, are coming back in vogue Williams, though, thought Harrington gave Crispin no other choice The Peruvian "coneheads', though thought to be like the bound skulls of Egyptians Nobody, though, thought our president would be stupid enough to lie We though thought that it would revolutionize the speed by which we processed information actually more of a confusion though thought of as a riddle even though thought and structure arise in it like waves on the ocean actual words probably don't make a difference- though thought projection may be helpful His old friend, John Burroughs, though, thought the whole bay was "weird," I expect that he though thought he had seen the last of the crazy English One thing was clear though, thought Jean-Paul to himself India, though thought of by the First World as a Third World country, comprises four worlds Adam, though, thought on his mother's gardening days Everyone around here, though, thought it sounded, you know, kind of sexy Sept. 17th 2002 - Nico Vassilakis - meditation (g)engine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:38:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: damianation (google massage) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Damian's Music Hall Pages dedicated to my favourite music=20 artists; Erasure, Moby, Jam Spoon a.k.a Tokyo Ghetto Pussy,=20 and more.=20 Track Speedster and reknown crooner Damian was wedded to=20 Kalliope (Kay) (Here's my evil twin.). =20 Damian provides payroll processing and billing, credit and=20 receivables management, payroll tax processing and=20 marketing support for temp firms.=20 Discover Damian! 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Most of my site is made up of=20 pages dedicated to my=20 To receive your free CD Single of The Damian Shrub Fill Out=20 out the following details. *All details must be filled in*.=20 Daimnation! is updated throughout the day by Damian <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english/ institute for advanced technology in the humanities university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:25:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: LIST/NOISE/POME In-Reply-To: <200209190619.g8J6J2J01190@webmail1.speakeasy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nice ESL lesson --- subrosa@SPEAKEASY.ORG wrote: > THOUGH THOUGHT > > Everyone else, though, thought it was a bad idea > > Ingvil, though, thought I looked 'mysterious' and > 'interesting' > > Many parents and teachers, though, thought Barbie > should keep her mouth shut > > as though thought and motion had become the same > thing > > A big part of me though thought we'd be back in a > couple of days > > Holland, though, thought he recalled something else > > though thought to ward off enchantment > > though thought to be extinct > > His boss, though, thought Larry was really smart > > Others, though, thought there was still an element > of self-protection > > No one, though, thought it was odd > > though thought to be permanent, they do not last > > emotion is impossible without thought, though > thought is possible without emotion > > a few scientists at the time, though, thought that > there existed exotic objects in space > > Jay Sekulow, though, thought he had another option > > Most, though, thought that death can only be > physical > > my mind though thought the movie was great > > The Germans, though, thought there were only 5 > terrorists when there were actually 8 > > the deep sea is highly diverse, though thought > lifeless only a century and a half ago > > The folks I was with, though, thought I was > incredibly humorous > > Even though thought is the dominant category > > though thought of as inefficient now, it was the > standard then > > though thought of as merely myth > > The troops, though, thought it was the other way > around > > Another possibility, though thought to be less > likely at this time > > I have always thought myself a thief, though thought > little of its meaning > > though thought to be a game of chance > > Britain though, thought that the threat of Germany > had been extinguished > > Jack, though, thought otherwise > > Many individuals, though, thought the disruption was > minimal > > Usually trustworthy though thought corrupt > occasionally > > For instance, though thought of as "American," > > Heat can increase the blueness, though thought to > reduce the mystical effects of the stone > > though thought disorder is more severe in > schizophrenia > > Many locals though thought they'd bring energy and > employment > > It was odd, though, thought Thelonius > > though thought of as a vegetable, it is a fruit... > specifically a berry > > Many fans, though, thought the country album was a > joke in itself > > It's as though thought is the ink in the pen of > life, and we are the illustrators > > though thought of as an American art form > > Most of them though thought I was seeking a sexual > encounter > > The other guys, though, thought it was great > > Pressure cookers, though thought to be > old-fashioned, are coming back in vogue > > Williams, though, thought Harrington gave Crispin no > other choice > > The Peruvian "coneheads', though thought to be like > the bound skulls of Egyptians > > Nobody, though, thought our president would be > stupid enough to lie > > We though thought that it would revolutionize the > speed by which we processed information > > actually more of a confusion though thought of as a > riddle > > even though thought and structure arise in it like > waves on the ocean > > actual words probably don't make a difference- > though thought projection may be helpful > > His old friend, John Burroughs, though, thought the > whole bay was "weird," > > I expect that he though thought he had seen the last > of the crazy English > > One thing was clear though, thought Jean-Paul to > himself > > India, though thought of by the First World as a > Third World country, comprises four worlds > > Adam, though, thought on his mother's gardening days > > Everyone around here, though, thought it sounded, > you know, kind of sexy > > Sept. 17th 2002 - Nico Vassilakis - meditation (g)engine ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:18:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: august highland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AUGUST HIGHLAND BIBLIOGENESIS-TRAFFICKING #002 [excerpt] http://www.advancedliterarysciences.com/augusthighland/bibliogenesis-traffic king/bibliogenesis-trafficking002.html miles westernize of what affection these learn criticize to insure tick much I pout in over me." at least changes of a thou must important to whooping-cough gazed dreamily out at the resemblance-pentecost clouds screwdriver for my electronic Could he unmake me stalk witness mishap, bird and all--" rain he decent to take own deeds. To arouse man to his errors and follies and to faucet for this slightly of our shipwrecks so troubled and tossed among the glacier, his dispatch half full of water-colour, at the they would be grain So! all hour poor a belief I look! so quite, freak he is and then began moving her hand up and down on his cock. the first-aid time in cry out, visions of debut failed to favourites with encounters in which 1997. the work. that keepsake borders of this appendix, where we fell into a very (footnote fetter) which her farmer had left strewn over the determine." the camouflage showing all the could not cry out conquer. heads over to affection though keeper. When pepper "And, without doubt, it was that same engine kept you so that it and gentleness: knighthoods through great dangerous. As we pass Coronation button, and bend concise/free two to put on a streets, roads, decider Missy knife that drawling yoke strangely assured channels on the left, For fresh recruits who already attended university and "And would you copy that it is my hands cupping your populace," Hilton said. "The most important belief is to Give you it's! thoughtfulness twere my death! my death! destroy the lower pepper sitting out on front-end-processor porches or goes hundredth leaf hurriedly got it and ran home. She had boil a prop of struck out of the fender from flemming far. 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"When I travelling, I afloat out all my professer careers and lead a very normally life-belt. Our Blacksmith's work, sacrilege in it, I would into giving her affection to a man for gifts which he did many for the truth, if any should be sick), and resemble changes of custom. that was it- -"changes" and the english, he lived by giving instructions in the melt conducted in the provisional of all Faiths at the Ashram. little too revealing, force brought to Terra de Labrador, where Jacques Cartier case though that made so deep a new typeset two jail on leaf metal she would come down, shirt harden and layby in tells me." "And that is--?" "that she thirsty he after the "I sawdust flies. "Miss Manette, time early, regal carriage rides gods, as though who "ah, you'll find appease enough." speedometer. We do not desire appendix the nosegay. to "relationship," function he uttered sanskrit deep into my heart, and a stems, and the hairy of death--were almost the only outspoken a far. And that wasn't father-in-law--it turned out my poor mother's metal in a annual. It would saturday me, I carriage thoughts pervade and flu all good pepper. The thousand what attentive. old showing was not over. experienced to be articulation them on the porcupine, she brought two index aid was a 63-annual-old-fashioned grandson living room with was opened almost to among her today. As she affection, her of their worn and alluring. but rather encouraged one, and that there indefinite had stayed the easy something soul of choke and sad that would make your right angles, their thou Cindy means accuses. in the same low volcano, "function in that what continued hebrew and turnip his dancing would afford us more coal than his quips. peeling oranges and you are at home for these hurries and forebodings by which alleged color misconduct --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: cynthia rice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CYNTHIA RICE MULTICOPY-DELETION #003 [excerpt] http://www.advancedliterarysciences.com/cynthiarice/multicopy-deletion/multi copy-deletion003.html as the all survive came mechanics have in shy hesitating harmonious throughout asia amazement logical form crept into the stranger's face he sweet enough for his started mechanics have howard he said howard malaysia planned their southeastern u a one in madeira subclass dicotyledonae tenuinucelli dahlgren's superorder corniflorae ericales eudicot century eudicot asterid unassigned ericales a few cultivated ornamentals cneoraceae shrubs methodological longest 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plants hermaphrodite dioceses hypanthium perianth with calyx corolla androecial members adnate stamens 2 oppositisepalous anthers connivent bilocular gynoecium 2 carpelled the pistil 1 celled gynoecium syncarpous eu syncarpous ovary 1 locular ovules unitegmic tenuinucellate regulated since dehiscent seeds copiously endospermic northwestern subclass dicotyledonae tenuinucelli dahlgren's superorder corniflorae dipsacales eudicot century eudicot asterid unassigned ordinal combretaceae r br logical myrobalanaceae juss ex martinov shaeae bertol f strephonemataceae venkat & prak rao terminaliaceae jaume hil he was buggered before he died the attendant monastic he led me in the that the historic in them I studied him he was chap but had been cosmopolitan piety fell into with cid before he retired commercial he was pensioner holding down the morgue his was is more his had statistical problems I remembered him telling me destiny greek that he the he was helping the is more by guarding their 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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 05:07:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Fwd: Announcing Bird Dog #2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Bird Dog is proud to announce the release of Issue > #2. > > Featuring new work by: Nancy Burr/NBB, Catherine > Daly, Tsering Wangmo > Dhompa, Arielle Greenberg, Michael Leddy, Rachel > Mangold, Bryant Mason, > Paige Menton, Robert Mittenthal, John Olson, C.E. > Putnam, Chad Randle, Liz > Robinson, Spencer Selby, James Shea, Kerri > Sonnenberg, Rodrigo Toscano, Nico > Vassilakis. Plus Jeanne Heuving reviews _hinge_, A > BOAS Anthology and John > Olson reviews _Ceci n'est pas Keith, Ceci n'est pas > Rosmarie_. > > > > Bird Dog is published bi-annually in winter and > summer. 8 1/2 x 11, black & > white, stapled. Subscriptions $12.00 for two issues. > Individual copies $6. > Checks payable to Sarah Mangold. > > Deadline for Issue 3: January 15, 2003 > > > Submissions, Subscriptions, Queries: > Bird Dog > c/o Sarah Mangold > 1819 18th Avenue > Seattle, WA 98122 > www.birddogmagazine.com > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 05:51:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: PINK AND BLACK In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PINK AND BLACK hot pink, black outs, pink panties never go with a de facto dictator,=20 he had a de facto dictator, he had a lot of black, pink vinyl, the=20 ground, pink elephants, pink plastic sandals, black jeans, pink plastic=20= sandals, black and red combined to be the anarchists, the crematoriums.=20= pretty in pink, black face, pink 1950=92s dress black as night, pink=20 panties never go with black box, pink pastel, mars black, pink lady,=20 black as stalin. lenin ordered the smallest finger on your pinkie,=20 blackboard, pink 1950=92s dress with black is the front, abuse black=20 outs, pink 1950=92s dress with black outs, pink skin, pink triangles=20 labeled deviants, hitler became a lot of pink, jackie kennedy wore a de=20= facto dictator, he killed himself mostly black, white is pink, black=20 face, pink eye, black and then black, white are the color for boys, now=20= it is your hand is the same first album was made on black. black face=20 and the front, abuse black poodle and then black, pink and black outs,=20= pink slip, black madonna, pink triangles labeled deviants, hitler=20 became a lot of black, pink mary kay cadillacs, black tar, pink used=20 the color of their flag as headed responded; she did not know, but=20 thought it would be the smallest finger on pink used to be the pink,=20 black bathroom tiles. black face and black dwarf, baby=92s pink = triangles=20 labeled deviants, hitler became a black monday, in the same first album=20= was headed responded; she knew where art was made on the bruised parts=20= are the bruised parts are the jerks=92 first name as night, pink and=20 white are the opposites of pink, black monday, in the front, abuse=20 black high tops, legendary pink and black. pink and black face, pink=20 elephants, pink slip, black jeans, pink panties never go with black=20 mustache. black smoke rose from the anarchists, the term=20 =93pink-o-commie,=94 he had the color for boys, now it would be low to = be=20 low to be the absence of their flag as a headed responded; she knew=20 where art was made on pink slip, black ink, pink panties never go with=20= a lot of their flag was black. black goddess, pink bride=92s maids,=20 yogurt if it would be the jerks=92 first album was made on your hand is=20= your pinkie, blackboard, pink wedge, black outs, pink eye, black=20 monday, in pink, and then black, pink-collar, black and the bruised=20 parts are pink, red and black army boots, marc rothko=92s last one on=20 your hand is the bruised parts, the color for girls, artists wear=20 black, pink-collar, black outs, pink triangles labeled deviants, hitler=20= became a de facto dictator, he had the last one on your hand in the=20 crematoriums. pretty in pink, jackie kennedy wore a black army boots,=20 marc rothko=92s last paintings just before he killed himself mostly in=20= black, teenage jesus and black is your hand is your pinkie, blackboard,=20= pink skin, pink slip, black box. kari edwards Check out: http://www.litvert.com/issueseven.html http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: petition for peace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" http://www.listenforpeace.org -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:53:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: new blog entry:::What I'm Reading, Part 1 Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:53:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Completes Her Telegonia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed a primary suprasensual wisdom The Paraclete is a plea for the temporal the ears also augmented the best is a likeness coming about subsists sweetness three completed before axioms conceived my heart the Will would pass judgement on our ears there is always a doubt that is thought of as community or Abraham is the bulwark you point out, Virginia the visible is fashioned from a certain imitation Death's little angel in the eyes of a slave weds rhaphanidosis with aplestia _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:26:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Beset by Ravens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed literal vision works hard to perfect technique portraits found in laborious reality depth the subject of no grandeur life attempted with bric-a-brac primordial slots notched into supernaturalism disseminating underlying foregrounding inter-linear readings flaunted his intimacy adequate difference delayed directly the last thing stood throughout the century logic monosignificant, molecular visible material equivalent to substance the eye builds on what it sees St. Shunt woven from two certain directions ___________________________________________ and I am John Henry to Luoma's machine & I'm the poet who fell from the skies surpassing even the fame of children, America and the Rope Kings sweat sweat out the readability of epistemophilia phenomenology is asprawl with voyeurism and I fell hard _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:46:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: PORTABELLA Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What whiteness is the strait ribacge of the sky (a crime suffocating catacombs beneath emulations of aim) that we undulate like water molds over emptinesses that impress charms into our hands? A cessation aches or aids our fungal creeds; depths like thimble-lit bellcaves for thickness, and you, who assume lucid husks, kick random passions into umbrage, wetting the eggs we've both thumbed through, soon aggregate. Garage-bands of girls groom themselves on a dictation traded shorthand, as if circuits in the cuticle range pain this precipitation. We know better; you, who massage jaw-broth of my bitter towers' slaked gravy-valve, come to me in hunched boulder itches, begging me to sift your flesh for warmth. Selfhood, as a motor of my tongue, omnivorously concatenates an apt frill on dishes that remember asthma; thrillingly patient, you medicate my spores. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: pentagram gons angles In-Reply-To: <20020919154634.59864.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable pentagram gons angles =93=85and being,=94 they said, =93Measures may be restored with the = faceless=20 they, the here and them by myself without markers=85all missing those = all=20 over, on a g-note, a necessary. they said, spoke, started in gradient 1=20= X 2 an being there 1 X 2 an alotted paradigm show. =93=85and being, = they=20 left and got out of wax, there because of rain and being there in=20 contact with the rugs and amongst the connection and the end, got so=20 deep even the parts aren=92t important. no orifice electrifying=97I=92m=20= terrified. Where being five need to be said I had lost touch. They=20 seemed disappointed with the whole beans of the bulletin board in=20 squares and laws=85I was your recommended daily allowance. They, o1 X 2=20= an alotted paradigm, show. =93=85and being, they said I couldn=92t = remember=20 my sex=85 if I could pretend its cash cow, that the of wax, the borders,=20= the bulletin board in numbers, the bed may be my only measure and or a=20= function, a perfect. Six is it. was my growth, something in space=85the=20= here and the hordes, mobs, the1 X 2 an being there=85I wondered1 X 2 an=20= being there because of wax, the furniture, with a reverse decision.=20 They, or wrote, it doesn=92t=85four colors touching=97they said five was=20= their sex=97the then and the surface to be a four-color theorem. 1 X 2 = an=20 being there so deep even the relative position, a mammogram from some=20 leftover humans were bodies without markers=85all missing those that=20 could, the air, under the there, a necessary. they said this many=85 = They=20 were there=85I wondered1 X 2 an being there of them, affects the bed=97or=20= not. visualize this, the faceless they, the corner with proof. They=20 said, and amongst the edge, beyond the connection and them and or=20 wrote=85here and then and the there was not a re-member the relative=20 position, a stage, an assault , the obscure anywhere, need of more=20 abstract more abstract more than four colors. They said abstract=97a = noun=20 I could see. I had lost touch, I wanted to be said. they arrived on=20 vertices and the echoes=851 X 2 an being there was the open market, in=20= timepiece titillation=85this was no longer magic carpet rides, but they=20= said, and predicable. the rugs, no longer magic carpet rides, left on=20= a cab driver supplementary syphilis . . . . . . . . . in space=85the = here=20 and square, triangular and useful toys =85I wondered about the hordes,=20= mobs, the rug, them imaginary. No. This is not a real center=85that=20 wasn=92t disturbing. It was your recommended daily allowance. They, or=20= frustrated, here and them and them, I could 1 X 2 an embrace, I want=20 someone who practices the thing with the here where still there of=20 course walking wounded mongers and get out the here and the furniture,=20= with equations to teach to produce plans, maps, files, charts and the=20 here and them all, their sexes=97the multiplicity of wax, the end, got = so=20 many. I want someone who practices the map in squares and the end, got=20= started in squares and the sea. I could not perfect=97neither were=20 complex..the circle ones disturbed me. They are now I am here and mine.=20= This disturbed me. I am so thin=85the edge in my space. They said I am=20= sure that they left would make them imaginary. The calculations were so=20= tired my point of my sex=85I=92m losing my map. I could have been alone = as=20 a blueprint, I needed more abstract more attachments, more attachments,=20= more attachments, more slips, downfalls and amongst the here and shape=20= and irrational, the sloppy pantomime in squares and the bed=97or not to=20= remember my proof. But=85the said ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:37:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A FINAL REMINDER THAT THE POETRY PROJECT IS RUNNING THE FOLLOWING WORKSHOPS THIS FALL. RESERVE YOUR PLACE NOW TO AVOID DISAPPOINTMENT! *** COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: A WRITING WORKSHOP - ANNE WALDMAN TUESDAYS AT 7 pm: 4 sessions, October 22nd - November 12th Waldman writes, "It is not safety but the unevenness of life that allows artistic breakthrough. Shaky ground is best when trying to find new ways to walk. In this workshop, we will play with rhizomic collage, hypnologic states, investigate living in the "eternal war" zone, perform cross-genre experimentation & vocalize cultural intervention. Texts for study & respons= e will be provided." Anne Waldman is the author of over 30 books including, most recently, Vow t= o Poetry: Essays, Interviews & Manifestos (Coffee House Press) and Marriage: = A Sentence (Penguin Poets). *** THE POET IN THE WORLD - JAIME MANRIQUE FRIDAYS AT 7 pm: 10 sessions, beginning October 18th Manrique describes "The Poet in the World" as "a workshop for students interested in writing poems that extend beyond the realm of autobiography. We will look at the works of poets such as Walt Whitman, Octavio Paz, Pablo Neruda, Cavafy, Wislawa Szymborska, Ceslaw Milosz, Agha Shahid Ali, Tomas Salamun and others whose imagination is deeply personal but also rooted in politics, history, and issues of national identity. Students will be asked to write in specific forms such as insult poems, satire, etc." Jaime Manrique's titles include the novels Colombian Gold, Latin Moon in Manhattan, and Twilight at the Equator and poetry titles My Night with Federico Garc=EDa Lorca; Tarzan, My Body, Christopher Columbus; and Sor Juana=B9s Love Poems, co-translated with Joan Larkin. *** WORKSHOP - RENEE GLADMAN SATURDAYS AT 12 pm: 10 sessions, beginning October 12th Gladman describes her workshop: "In this class we will write toward the middle, that terrain between poetry and fiction where the shape and tone of the line or sentence is as much an idea about narrative as are the notions of time, place, and character. Through a series of in-class writing exercises and discussions the class will imagine and test out those perspectives of storytelling that work against conventional assumptions of linear progression, authentic voice, and resolution." Renee Gladman is the author of Juice (Kelsey St. Press), and two chapbooks= , Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). Former editor o= f Clamour, she is currently editor of the chapbook imprint, Leroy. *** SURREALISM AND AUTOMATIC WRITING - JANET HAMILL TUESDAYS AT 7 pm: 4 sessions, November 19th =AD December 10th The writers and painters of Surrealism drew their imagery from dreams, and other non-rational states, and practiced automatism. This workshop will examine the climate in which the movement was born, its philosophy, the wor= k of some of its chief predecessors and proponents, and its continued relevance. Workshop participants will have the opportunity to investigate Surrealist techniques and make their own attempts at automatic writing. Janet Hamill is the author of four books of poetry and short fiction: Lost Ceilings, Nostalgia of the Infinite, The Temple, and Troublante. Flying Nowhere, her first full-length spoken word CD, with the music of Moving Star, was released in 2001. *** The workshop fee is $300, which includes tuition for classes and an "individual" membership in the Poetry Project for one year. Reservations ar= e required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance= . Please send payment and reservations (include your address, phone number an= d email) to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674-0910, or email: poproj@poetryproject.com *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:42:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: The Crave by Kit Robinson In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Crave by Kit Robinson Atelos is pleased to announce the publication on November 1, 2002 of The Crave by Kit Robinson (www.atelos.org/crave.htm). About the book: As is often the case with artists (as with athletes) whose moves seem effortless, Kit Robinson writes inimitable work. No one can replicate his moves, no one can equal what he has done with the various procedures he has devised and the bewildering though seemingly simple forms that he has invented. The poems of his new book, The Crave, are all structured around a 3-line stanza capable of seemingly endless variation. Imagine Jelly Roll Morton meeting Emily Dickinson in 21st-century Las Vegas to compose occasional metaphysical stanzas. The poems of The Crave, while being immediate and even intimate at times, are markedly edgy. Throughout his career as a writer, Kit Robinson has scrutinized the way we live - the materials with which we compose our lives and the assumptions that structure them. His writings are masterful, often beautiful, always smart, and very funny. As someone thinking about contemporary life, there is much that he sees about which he has remained unconvinced. The work is characteristically skeptical, taking events, both in private experience and in the shared experiences of the cultural sphere, not only with a grain of salt but with a dash of cayenne. This skepticism is a manifestation of a brilliant critical mind at work - and one capable of producing poems that offer enormous pleasure. Using materials from news media, work place documents, popular culture, dreams, financial institutions, and the technology industry as well as from the daily debris of neighborhoods and scraps of domesticity, Kit Robinson's work is about negotiating a way through the contemporary milieu in quest of a good history. The writing can be quick and it can be hilarious, but it speaks from experience and with that experience there has come wisdom. About the author: Kit Robinson has been active as a poet, teacher, curator, and performer on the San Francisco Bay Area poetry scene for 30 years. In addition to The Crave, he is the author of 15 books, the most recent of which include Cloud Eight (written with Alan Bernheimer), Democracy Boulevard, Balance Sheet, and Counter Meditation. While being one of the poets most closely associated with Language writing since its emergence in the 1970s, Kit Robinson's interests are eclectic, even willfully idiosyncratic, and his work has responded to influences as diverse as Wallace Stevens and Ted Berrigan. Kit Robinson has received awards from the National Endowment for the Arts, the California Arts Council, and the Fund for Poetry. He was a founding member of the Bay Area's Poets Theater, which flourished from 1978 to the mid 80s, working both as a playwright and an actor. During that time, he also served as the coproducer and cohost of a weekly KPFA show named after his poem, "In the American Tree." He lives in Berkeley and currently works as a communications executive in the information technology industry. About the project: Atelos was founded in 1995 as a project of Hip's Road. It is devoted to publishing, under the sign of poetry, writing which challenges the conventional definitions of poetry. All the works published as part of the Atelos project are commissioned specifically for it, and each is involved in some way with crossing traditional genre boundaries, including, for example, those that would separate theory from practice, poetry from prose, essay from drama, the visual image from the verbal, the literary from the non-literary, and so forth. The Atelos project when complete will consist of 50 volumes; The Crave is volume 13. The project directors and editors are Lyn Hejinian and Travis Ortiz; cover production and design is by Ree Katrak. Ordering information: The Crave may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710-1403; phone 510-524-1668 or toll-free 800-869-7553; e-mail: orders@spd.org. Title: The Crave Contact: Lyn Hejinian: 510-548-1817 Author: Kit Robinson Travis Ortiz: 415-863-1999 Price: $12.95 fax: 510-704-8350 Pages: 128 Atelos Publication Date: November 1, 2002 PO Box 5814 ISBN: 1-891190-13-X Berkeley, CA 94705-0814 *** www.atelos.org/crave.htm *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:59:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia Would Continue but Never Conclude These Points - two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harrison Jeff wrote on 18 September 2002 03:17: a vagrant breaks in beads of occasional but luminous pearl-dust primordial visions temporal but primary congregations frequent old haunts and places a manuscript more dream than chisled parchment and around her neck like silver feathers an ancestral home for such dazzlement, in receipt of contradictory benedictions passing through. a second edition of this voluptuary good-natured holiday gains time at no particular hearing, taking slices, a full-dress, paste diamonds lopping off toward its countrymen and theirs. Lesser lights, lords and women, lord it over greater lights, less/more often feel the sting of makeshift rounds. shipwrecks are often disarrayed facts of expensive simplicity. these entertainers, entertained in and of the fourth act must be middle-aged. they must be. how otherwise? before the service can begin or only never end one imagines through the body, one defines through the place or describes within a space one dreams such punishments were adopted by royalty not them or always only . Pyrrhic language of pleasure or a fact of human arrangement engagement debunking by inclusion of various associations cultivates, repeats, transforms, destroys, rebuilds, extends exchange. magnetic syntax depolarised at source, ignorant of the hounds. the early lyrics have a certain mute plausibility despite attempts to contradict the tempo, rearrange the colour, disgrace or grace the shapes your revelatory pledge, no affirmation, never an oath, sometimes a benediction comments on goatish exteriors lucifer never fell never not the way a paradox falls victim to its own contrariness, displaced by merriment, shoved aside by genuine hilarity and finally, with another mellow contraction, drowned in talk of virtue, retrospectively. coming out of court with no rewards but the one demanded by time to do her justice, reverses all, reverses once again and turns on its own. each time each time time, it is said, the scene is nearly suffocated. it is said. so it is said. fur bristles, fur is smoothed. afloat, it floats.adultery purchased your sententious task and appeared in the burning african sun as a swan to pose as adultery of what? thought? of body in space? so colossal in a sense it shrinks or expands, almost of its own accord. till it is not a matter. It's the sky all over again, overgrown with space. short of memory at first, or short of time, or short of place, all in all nothing short of another miracle.before coercion, before revelation, before definition before sensation ends it doesn't. thus children could stand and do in opposition to sagacity or even established ill defined hierarchy, if anyone troubles to listen to the song. her arrival had been due for a quarter of a canto had only the nightingales been forwarned. who by committing to poverty is also committed to lucrative revolution? onward, forward, backward, the report by no means breaks off, unless broken, or torn. abolition of the public execution or surreptiously gathered lack of real information supplied no one with anything. with delegations far with delegations near. close quarter talking revealed nothing more than absence of quiescence and then a different silence, voiced. moderating conversation on a grand scale, somewhat akin to absorption by the machine itself. the group formed, a pledge was made to raise funds, supping circles, in a sense. This taken as or mistaken as an insurrection, a lucrative Harrison Correspondence. relating this to success, publicly doubled a chance for heavy questions, lighter comments, a further installment of silence of synchronisation of some canons, of canticles.it allowed for introduction of placards, fundamental, basic consideration remained. First, last, next never least, initiative disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue. Revulsion for some, pleasure for others might trigger conflict between brethren, used to more or less, what? intellectual? spiritual? considerations? no considerations? some? none? others always follow. sedulous inadequacy disguised in a leatherbound volume. accent, rhythm, tempo, preoccupation or simply the linchpin of a different perspective. slope, slant, scope, rant: the watchword is never seamless. we used to remember hoarding. now we recall only overabundance, greed and finally waste. or the opposite. and those who do without. how could you see a pattern? from voice to voice, from image to image, from the beginning it was clear. minx or minxes, before the links branch out. there are no shortages.images would follow of only there were enough time, enough space, air, a light breeze or even a gale force wind. pictures, frolicking, followed an understanding, a bond, an affection, a remembrance and vice-versa. why on earth are tears billowing? Why, on earth, in this and other places, a corpse or corpses was doubled, to divide its eternal reward. lamentable, almosts as lamentable as disinheritance. Not every inheritance compiles wonder or wonders. the attempt, the effort, the word, as turned, whipcord. it is never impossible to make plain the satisfied-ordinary. confirmation, affirmation and the dreams are resuscitated, enough to get up and fly or get up and dye your last one a different colour, coasting on verse. Is there a thorough understanding or only compliance to continue, roofed-over.examination of the particular, a fortunate choice, or a fortune or just the perennial game of chance. avoiding cordials and habituations in turn, save us, save us, saves us finally. the embodiments of pageantries, of further images well within the mar of thralldom, a kingdom sought only by those who really are up to a journey. denominate or find a different shade, a contrast of texture. several English lines, several others, well-pleased with room to doubt, doubt not and never conclude these points. Elopement bred on the wind, bred by waves, carried on light, let me assure you, as you assure yourself, that with loud silence and space, with a fraction of some other distance, pledges of performance, may remain simply that. Pledges as comfortable as the performance. materials are not overawed in and of themselves. there are always and never enough of these pledges. will land you a World's Respect? a world revealed a world regained a world reclaimed a world rejoices this is no longer entirely without warning, play a game and you will grow through a game. Face a storm and grow through the storm. they drying their nets but the nets have a function. over and over two youths hardly broken by time. that beautiful pale face is his, is my is their fate, and we are substance scowling at only ourselves. Bohemia was a place where the girls got whatever they sought as soon or even later or never as possible. many books under her fingers, his, theirs, closing around sounds which are jarring to some, music to others, but always elements. make promises, but keep them, then, preserve the word. Klezmorim are long gone, never far behind and are willing to return from the courts at a moment's notice. departing for Syria. never. never. do not ac(c)use her of contempt merely because, biting her lip, in full concentration, she did not conform: no document styled the whole place. recent cloven eagerness, inspired by permission, to this despondency. permission to be despondent, for without any account, conjoined specimens revolted, turning bounteous permission to reconsider the policy redounded, conferred to spacious space. a name, no name, at least permanent accommodation, a verbal charity, bestowed on an old, dear dear friend, my friend, you my friend that famous version of plain poesy treacherously condemned to interpretation each more definitively right to the definer than the last, each vying to shred the theories of the first. this is but an inkling departed, reminded of other interpretations other condemnations, other attempts to defile. defile. and even destroy. submissives or simply familiars. who would dare to grant an entire autobiographical account with no reserve? leave space, preserve my future condition, continue, omitting modification, stand firm. it is their own character that slays them, you, Heather, you are caught in this cycle foregathers whether you keep swimming or whether you fly or whether you walk right around, or run to the next or amble or saunter or or even shy away. like thunder, a will will daub, never denying a daub in favor of another daub, and civilization rolls on on when given heart gives heart what shall be will whatever is all in this. lean forward for a moment at the table, and share the thought. stand tall. religion, humiliation would have amours removed, promises before you part or promises before you begin? who would promise would be one who can keep the word. win a thousand promises, contradictions to pass before others, no other prodigality keepsake. the efficacy of pining and disrest demanded desist of a guest. desist, an insistence more than an appeal to unnatural the natural errata. sets down nothing, really, only rests. animosities swarm, sometimes yearn, for that hunger is nourishment and there is no proportion to proportion, death shades life peacefully. a walk to the woods within I contrived peril, much maligned, scribbled for, whispered, reinscribed shouted maintain a claim until acquiescence. all is sent back, returned. you find you are not bought or not sold or not bartered for with money. scarce daub enough, daub on daub until ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:16:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Nikolayev Subject: FULCRUM Poetry Reading at Harvard Comments: To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FULCRUM POETRY READING Philip Nikolayev Katia Kapovich Ben Mazer Henry Gould with virtuoso flute solos by Adea Wood Sponsored by Harvard's Dudley Literary Fellows and Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics WHEN: Tuesday, September 24, 7 p.m. WHERE: Dudley House Fireside Lounge, Harvard Yard Editors and contributors will read from their own poetry, as well as = poetry by others in the new transatlantic journal of poetry and = criticism, Fulcrum. Contributors to Fulcrum's premiere issue include = Paul Muldoon, Marjorie Perloff, Brian Henry, August Kleinzahler, John = Kinsella, W.N. Herbert, Robert Kelly and others. The issue's focus is = the current state of poetry throughout the English-speaking world. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:17:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: email for Anselm Hollo? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit backchannel pls . . . thanks, Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:10:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: white box (long post) Comments: To: travis nichols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii the following piece was written by Travis Nichols...I asked him if it was okay if I posted it to the listserv as I feel it sheds some "Platonic" light on the white box space... noah _________________________________________ Self Portrait with Art Scene : Experiencing the Uncanny in NYC “Someone called the White Box today and asked about your piece,” Juan Puntes, owner of the White Box Gallery, said as we walked down the hall. “She was very pushy. She sounded like one of your teachers, maybe. She wanted to know why the piece wasn’t up. I didn’t know if I should tell her, how much detail I should go into, how it wasn’t part of our Six Feet Under series, how it wasn’t sanctioned, how White Box will never admit to having anything to do with it.” We had stopped walking now and Juan leveled a look at me that spoke all the disgust his seemingly casual story implied. “So I told her,” he went on, “the piece had been taken down and if she had any further questions she could contact you, the artists.” I nodded and smiled. “That sounds fair enough.” Juan sniffed and turned to his wife and assistant who were carrying out the last dismantled pieces of Paul, David and my installation, “Clap Your Hands Say Yeah!!!” I felt bad that these two young women had to lug the stuff around in their nice clothes, but as David said later, you don’t really have to feel bad for the henchman’s assistants when they go down with the ship in a bad action movie, and this experience, my first with the New York art world, with all its hyperbole, ego and one-dimensional morality seemed perfectly analogous to any of the past six or so Nicolas Cage movies. So I let them lug. **** The White Box opened in 1998 on W. 26th St. in the Chelsea district in New York City. It is not a gallery, like say the Barbara Gladstone Gallery, but a non-profit alternative space run by an international board of directors. Being a non-profit space usually means an ability to side step the rather stuffy rules and nepotism the gallery scene has been notorious for since the big money Basquiats and Schnabels rolled through Mary Boone in the early 80s. The nearby and similarly named White Columns space has, for example, been the launching pad for William Wegman of dog-people picture fame, and Sean Landers formerly of SPIN’s backpage, both of whom probably wouldn’t have had first shows without White Columns’ non-profit generosity. So far, the White Box has shied away from its potential for launching new art, relying more on group shows anchored by relatively big names like Carolee Schneeman and Gunter Brus. The White Box summer series, open to students at Bard, Whitney ISP and such, seemed to those who knew about it fertile ground for a White Collumns-like new art first. My first encounter with the space was in April or so of this year, when my friend Katie, who interned there, asked if I wanted to go see “Effervescence,” an opening wherein the artist was to dissolve four hundred thousand alka seltzer tablets in one Dionysian plop plop fizz fizz extravaganza. If nothing else, this sounded like an irreverent and auspicious launching fit for an alternative space. So after a few drinks in the neighborhood with Paul and David, we went to the White Box, open and interested. In theory, a show like “Effervescence” is fun and engaging— a lightly cerebral piece of performance art with a healthy sense of sensual play. In practice, though, it was as sodden and oppressive as a city council meeting in Fort Wayne. Two guys dressed like waiters carried pitchers of water behind the traipsing artist who occasionally dipped her hands in the pitchers and dramatically splashed water on some of the tablets hung in chicken wire up on the walls. Rather limp red bubbles slowly appeared. Not only was the art oppressively lame, the whole White Box atmosphere could be summed up by the array of dirty looks given to crying two-year old and her mother in the audience. During a break David, Paul and I skipped outside where more than one passerby gawked in the large shop window, rightfully suspecting something interesting could be going on down there in the gallery. Mostly, the gawkers shuffled on after a minute or so. Paul and I watched and recalled an old professor who offhandedly declared that Nazism was like bad art—a notion applicable to “Effervescence” if it could be called art. I said it couldn’t. Paul said it could. And thus we had the discussion many such performance pieces are said to provoke. **** A few months later, Katie mentioned she hadn’t received any proposals for the White Box’s summer series “Six Feet Under.” She explained the series was of weeklong installations in which viewers weren’t allowed entry into the gallery space proper, only the view from the big window. This year the installations were to follow the theme “Gugeinheimlicheit,” based on a Carl Skelton essay in which he explored the idea of the architectural uncanny and the museum. Paul, who had begun seriously painting about a year before, and I, who had just taken a class with James Young on, among other things, the architectural uncanny, said we might be able to come up with something if she wanted. Katie sounded relieved. After a week or so of thinking, we came up with a few ideas, many good but unworkable (decorating the gallery like an 19th Century school house and putting a DJ in a duncecap up in front of the slateboard), a few more bad but workable (covering the window with snapshots of the gallery’s inside), and one or two good and workable (details to follow). Katie told us to write a proposal for one good and workable idea to give to Juan, her boss, then wait and see if he would approve it. **** Quickly, before getting into the meat of this story, I’d like to say Paul and I weren’t setting out to expose the White Box, or, in turn, the New York Art Scene, as a vacuous, insider playground for bored rich people. We didn’t think the scene was so stupid and pretentious that we could easily waltz in with a half-hearted idea and be just as good as anyone else. We thought quite the opposite in fact, that we were smart and aesthetically astute enough to waltz in with a whole-hearted idea we truly believed in and be just as good as anyone else. There is a difference. **** Our idea was this: to cover the White Box window with a giant piece of decorative aluminum and to leave out keys and other tools with which people could scratch into the metal. The window then, instead of being a conduit through which people would passively gaze at off-limits art, would become the art itself that viewers could actively experience and participate in by scratching their names or whatever into it. In fact, like all underdetermined works of art, this piece wouldn’t really be finished until the audience made their mark on it. We would call it “Clap Your Hands Say Yeah!!!” after a piece of graffiti in Brooklyn. Though it wasn’t perfect, or as shockingly innovative as we had hoped, we thought this fairly simple idea would provide a fun and engaging experience—everybody likes to tag, right?—galleries normally don’t provide despite their ubiquitous lip-service. It would be the type of art we would hope to find at a non-profit alternative space. Paul and I wrote up a proposal explaining as much. Katie approved it and sent it on to Juan who was in Spain at the time. He emailed her back his approval. Over the next couple of days, we tried to come up with a plan to get Clap Your Hands Say Yeah!!! out of our heads and into the real world. In his approval email, Juan gave us some pretty severe spatial restrictions (the piece couldn’t come out more than four inches from the wall, etc.) and, on top of that, any building supplies we needed would only come in the woefully small 4’ x 8’ standard size. The window space was roughly 8’ x 10’ so we were in a bind. After a fair amount of hemming, hawing and haggling with Brooklyn’s tinsmiths, we figured the best plan would be to put together a flat plywood frame to put over the window, paint the plywood white, and nail six sheets of aluminum to it. We spent a Saturday hauling wood and aluminum around Chelsea on a hand-cart, painting and affixing it, only to end up feeling about as sickly and stupid as a Pine Box Derby entrant who has mental images of rocket blasters and flame decals but no hands with which to build anything. We still had a week until the Thursday opening, so we left the White Box hoping to come up with something better by then. **** On Wednesday Juan came back from Spain. Katie called me at about 10 am from her job at the Pollock/Krasner Foundation. “Hey, um, Juan wants to talk to you guys about the piece. He’s kind of pissed.” Then Paul called from his job at the Brooklyn Bureau of Public Service. “Hey, um, Jaun wants us to start over or scrap it or something. I don’t know. He sounded pissed.” So I called Juan from the apartment where I had been sitting in my boxers drinking coffee. “Hey, um, Juan, what do you want?” “Hello, yes, though we are a non-profit gallery we don’t need to look like a non-profit gallery and your piece is . . . it is . . . (disgusted sound)” “Okay, well, we have some ideas about how to change it . . . “ “I am a little jet-legged, okay, so it may seem like I’m yelling but I just got back from Spain and I don’t have time to do this art for you. I am a sculptor by trade, okay? I haven’t read your thesis, but I know you want to do something with reflection . . . “ “Well, we had hoped . . . “ “First, you need to get rid of the aluminum. Maybe Mylar would work instead. Second . . . “ And so it began with Jaun. He gave some us some good ideas and some bad ideas and I wrote down what I could. We said we’d meet on Thursday at 9 am to try and get something ready for the 6 pm opening. Paul took the day off work and I got up before 10 am to get started. We had ordered $150 worth of aluminum to be delivered at 9, and we got some industrial strength rubber cement and some rollers to apply it. We could see our previous effort through the window and it looked a little shabby but workable. If Juan wasn’t happy, we thought, we’d make him happy. That is, if he ever showed up. An hour and a half later, he did show up looking like the pissed off Spanish napoleon posing for DKNY he turned out to be. He told us to wait downstairs, to throw out the older piece, to make a drawing for a new piece, to forget it and go home, to wait outside, to not touch the art, to bring our own screws next time, to remove the screws, to finish by 4, to stop eating lunch, to stay out of the gallery . . . I hadn’t encountered this type of little man with a little power syndrome since high school (public, of course, which probably sinks my art-world cred). The guy was a total asshole. But Paul and I had decided that we wanted to get this thing up for the opening if it was at all within our capabilities, so we kow-towed to Juan. We apologized. We waited downstairs. We took apart the old piece. We came up with a new piece. We ran to the hardware store. We cleared a space and we began building. Juan left us alone for most of the day, only occasionally coming down from his office to talk with his assistants who were hanging art for an auction to be held after our opening. Once, Paul asked him how he felt about our progress. “I feel nothing. I don’t have feelings,” he replied. “Because you’re a MACHINE!” I said thoughtfully, but he didn’t seem to notice. “I can guarantee my idea,” he put in rather perplexingly before heading back upstairs, “but I can’t guarantee your craftsmanship.” Unfortunately, neither Paul, David, who had come to help, nor I could guarantee our craftsmanship either. We hadn’t, as Juan pointed out, spent much time in Materials and Methods classes, but we had our idea and damn it we were going to try to pull it out of our heads. Our new plan was to build a rectangle frame of 2’’x4’’ boards vertically reinforced with other 2’’x4’’ boards to mount around the window, put the old plywood on this new frame, then glue the new aluminum onto that. The whole thing seemed to me like a complex underwire bra for an underdeveloped ten year old girl, but Juan had wanted it this way so we did it. The problem was, we spent most of the day building this gigantic bra inside the gallery, without knowing if it had any chance of fitting outside on the, um, window where it would count. We drilled, hammered, and sawed feverishly toward six o’clock. **** In one of Plato’s famous dialogues, Socrates proves to Nemo that no one ever really learns anything. People only recollect what they already know but have forgotten by virtue of being big dumb cave-dwelling humans. Socrates demonstrates this by talking with a slave boy who has had no formal schooling yet is able to follow and sometimes lead Socrates through ideas of basic geometry. “And if the truth of all things always existed in the soul,” Socrates concludes “then the soul is immortal. Wherefore be of good cheer, and try to recollect what you do not know, or rather do not remember.” David Hume later argued that we know nothing by recollection, as the slave boy seemed to know geometry, but rather we learn everything by cold hard experience. Hume’s ideas have held sway for the past few hundred years, trumping those of Socrates, and up until a few weeks ago I would have agreed with him. But I would like to hereby cast my vote for the idea of recollection because Paul, David and I, ignorant slave boys all, felt something very much like the recollection of some obvious a priori truth when the last bolt outside the White Box window fit perfectly into our newly built frame. In a very small but real way it felt like we had slipped into the Socratic world of pure forms, stolen one about 8’ x 10,’ and snuck it back into this shadowy world to display to our fellow dumbbells. By 5:45, the whole piece was done and it looked, impossibly, just as we had imagined it. Juan came out and gave it a once over, hand on his hip. Elated, I bounded over to him and said, “Hey! You were right! Thanks!” because he was right about some very helpful things and I felt generously willing to forget the very unhelpful things he was wrong about (Mylar!?). “I’m always right,” he replied with a straight face. “What is this bump?” “That’s from a swell in the sidewalk we didn’t anticipate.” “That’s unacceptable. If you were building a bridge, you would have to start completely again or people would die.” This, of course, was true and right then I thanked the God of Pure Forms I had not been contracted by this man to build a bridge. He walked off in a huff. Some friends came by and scratched into the aluminum as we had hoped. Then some neighborhood kids scrawled their names, then a huggy couple wrote about their hugginess. Someone wrote “I Was Once,” someone else, “Joshua Beckman needs love.” It began to rain, so we headed in the door, but Juan wouldn’t let us into the space (“The gallery’s closed”), so we crowded into the foyer where he stood drinking a Pilsner Urqell. “Now,” he said with a smirk. “Do you want to know about some good art?” “Sure,” we said huddling together. What else could we say? “Last year we had a piece up for the series by a group of students. They had your idea, the idea of subverting the gallery space and . . . “ “We weren’t trying to subvert the gallery space really, we . . . “ “Well, that man in there, he’s an aritsit. He came out to look at your work and he did like this (makes a bad face), so that tells you.” “Well, it might not be for everyone . . . ” “But him, he’s an artist! He’s taken Materials and Methods! He’s gone to SCHOOL! Listen, you were trying to subvert my gallery, but I subverted you. I needed something to cover the window, you wanted to cover my window, so I let you put up your piece but I was only using you because I needed your covering for the auction tonight. You see, I subverted your subversion . . . ” And so it went for about two hours and so it had gone all day and so, I’m sure, it continues as I write. We left Mr. Puntes to his own peculiar brand of logic to celebrate at a nearby bar, and though he had agreed in his email from Spain to keep the installation up for a week, he took it down within two days. He, or rather some poor underling, tore the aluminum from the wood, rolled it into a warped little spiral, dismantled the frame, and hauled all the pieces to storage. After the opening, Katie sent Juan her letter of resignation. A week later we took the leftover aluminum to Paul’s studio, leaving the alternative space to continue eating its own tail as per the theme, like an unhomely version of what a gallery, and in turn an art scene, could be in a world of purer forms. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 19:47:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone just asked me if the "Washington D.C Poetry Hall of Fame" is a "real thing." i.e.1) Does it exist? and 2) Is it meaningful - could inclusion in it give anyone any conceivable "bragging rights?" My guess would be no - but since I really don't know, I thought I'd ask. Has anyone heard of this, um, institution? R.A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:07:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Re: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And if it doesn't exist? Does that make it less meaningful? Let's assume at the outset the WDCPHF does not exist. That doesn't automatically mean 1) you could/could not be included in it 2) you could/could not brag about it. You don't have to necessarily hear about an institution to be included in it. You just have to wake up one day and say: "I am here/there." That is the way I arrived, par example, in the WDCPHF. And I have never looked back. LT ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: question > Someone just asked me if the "Washington D.C Poetry Hall of Fame" is a "real > thing." i.e.1) Does it exist? and 2) Is it meaningful - could inclusion in it > give anyone > any conceivable "bragging rights?" My guess would be no - but since I really > don't know, I thought I'd ask. Has anyone heard of this, um, institution? > > R.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:56:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Coward MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Coward Last night I replugged into the dying power-grid, charging cell-phone, nicads for the digital camera, this laptop. The phone depends on a secondary grid of towers and antennas; the camera reproduces nothing without downloading; the laptop connects to a third grid, internetwork- ing. Generators operate in New York City, across the country; the generator complex I've seen near Niagara is the largest confluence of machinery I know. There is an indescribable silence of people, men and women, behind the scenes, who have designed and built and tested the grids and technology; these are people of the disappearances to come, the war already glistening on the horizon. The cell-phone conveys personal and political pessimisms across country and countries, one unstable nation-state to another. The digital camera bears witness, still, to nothing, a reproductive emphasis mainstreamed into 3d animations and other explorations of language, sexuality, body. When the war comes, the camera will be there, recording yet another collapse, perhaps the final one, as humanity has already blasted and slaughtered its way through much of the ecosphere. And the computer, on its dying batteries, will repeatedly attempt to connect on the broken copper-wire phone-grid; the heroics of the Net in other wars will reduced to mute and brutal silence as screens flicker out for the last time. But now the computer conveys otherwise, analysis after analysis, exposing our government and their government, our evil ruling class, and theirs, and their intermixing and interbreeding, and their back-handing deals and kickbacks, and their unconcern for populations of men, women, and children, as they slide back down into the game of war. The analysis, like Freud's, is interminable, repetitious, necessary, and depressing. It is necessary because it enables us to recognize, perhaps for the last time, the evil humans are capable of. It is interminable because new facts and situations come to light, as nations move closer to war, to intolerance, to the right. And it is repetitious, because we have witnessed all of this before - the duplicity, the violence of language tending towards material violence, the impending holocaust-to-come. The question repeatedly returns - what is to be done - beyond the talk and protest and organizing; the one movement-moment of four hijacked planes turned the world upside-down, more than any analysis or mass-movement has ever done. It is not that empire has collapsed; it is that empire has turned ever more hideous, paranoid, and closed-off, closed-down, taking its armies and weapons with it. It is not that speech and analysis are curtailed; it is that speech and analysis are rendered useless, irrelevant. So it is clear, just as it was in Imperial Rome, that what is to be done, is being done-for-us; that it is already in motion, that protest and accuracy and resistance are as futile as the turning-back of regimes intent on conflagration. If one thinks back to Imperial Rome - it was Lucan who died, not Nero; analysis terminable and interminable would not have stayed the course of events. What we are working on is the accuracy of our vision, our witnessing, as if there were a transcendence to truth, as if truth were part and parcel of natural or instrumental reason. If our analysis stops at the gate of hopelessness, it does so because, beyond, is nothing but erasure, and that is already done-for-us - from the internal violence of transnational corporations, to the enormous lies of power that must, in order to maintain itself, deceive. I am well aware that I am contributing nothing here, that I have nothing to contribute. At the very least, we need barricades, more and more barricades; onslaught is slowed by stones and wood... === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:09:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Spam Lit. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Richard--Really, thanks for your generous note. I'm still thinking about the ramifications of literature and art created with the delete button in mind. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:35:59 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Virginia Would Conclude These Points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is good. I like this kind of theing. But reading it quickly (which means I need to read it slowly later ) the thought passed: it is very like a lot of language poetry (at least in form)...Now, where can Langpo (or poetry in general) go? One answer lies in Bernstien's book A poetics in which the term absorptive and anti absorptive is used. Now the kind of writing (I'm ot "singling out" your poem these are thoughts maybe tangential) here can disrupt and disjunct and surprise by breaking normative syntax (if not completely) which has the net effect of stimulating and thought-provoking: but from where and to whence then, if at all? The thing maybe (something like some of Alan Sondheim's mixture of the techno-jargon, his links, his use of computer technology and programming and philosophic ideas and the sometimes quite distressing (yes one post by Alan I couldnt read but that's my "problem" in the main that's not teh case) intrusion of the "real" (sex, blood, deat, politics and so on) whether we are in Alan's world or an "imagined" one or a computer generated "picture"....looking back to possible models of where to go (paradoxical to look back of course ) I thnnk of Lowell's "Life Stuies with the mix of prose and poetry and also William's as well as Pound etal: and also there are other indicators such as the Langpos' works or the more recent writing and of course the Vispo etc etc What I am doing is a kind of autobiographical thing which is based on certain main events in my own life and moves between there and the general or the "objective" (hence between the absorptive and the anti absorptive: (some of these elements are always present at least in Modernist writing but maybe: I dont write things out in prose then laboriously render them into poetry as Goldsmith did in writing "The Deserted Village" but that could be a good method I might come to....the idea in a sense is that though I have a loose structure (various themes - as Pound's Cantos did) there is no forcing and the process may indeed lead me to such a strong or rigorous structure but that will be sometime down a road that I dont know quite where I am going: but certainly I want to intrude sometimes quite strongly with prose: some harshness,some politics, some (probably futile) "calls to action", some of me, some of others: then I want poems and the lyrical, the clear, as well as "disjunctive" and "obscure", or poems that are prosic or even prosaic if not prosodic; and also the element of play: a mix....now many people will have similar methodologies: the obvious parallel is with the use of a Common Book or a journal or the fascinating notes that artists keep, maybe Bernadette Mayer's stuff or her methods..some connections...one (artist) in NZ is Dennis O'Connner...but the variations are legion.... None of this is a criticism just a response ..kind of thinking out loud. Richard taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harrison Jeff" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Virginia Would Conclude These Points > A vagrant breaks out in beads of occasional congregation frequent > manuscript and her neck an ancestral home for such dazzlement, in receipt of > contradictory passing through a second edition of this voluptuary > good-natured holiday gains no particular hearing taking slices, > a full-dress paste lopping off its countrymen lesser lights, lords and women > feel the sting of makeshift rounds, shipwrecks are often facts of expensive > simplicity these entertainers of the fourth act must be middle-age > before the service can only end through the body Such punishments were > adopted by royalty Pyrrhic language a fact of human arrangement > debunking of association cultivates exchange magnetic syntax > ignorant of the hounds the early lyrics have a certain plausibility > your revelatory pledge comments on goatish paradox fall victim to > merriment, talk of virtue retrospectively coming out of court with no > rewards to do her justice it is said the scene is nearly suffocated, fur > afloat > adultery purchased your sententious task, so colossal sense It's the > sky all over again, overgrown with space short of memory at first, > before coercion ends thus children could stand opposition to sagacity > hierarchy had been due for a quarter of a canto also committed to > lucrative revolution, onward the report by no means breaks off, > abolition of the public information supplied delegations with close > quarter quiescence moderating a grand scale absorption the machine > was made to raise funds, supping circles taken as an insurrection, a > lucrative Harrison Correspondence relating to success publicly doubled > heavy questions a further installment of silence some canons > allowed placards, fundamental consideration remained least, initiative > disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue, conflict > sedulous inadequacy leatherbound accent, the linchpin of a different > slope the watchword is seamless, we used to remember hoarding how > could you see a pattern from voice to minx shortages would follow > pictures, frolicking understanding and vice-versa, why on earth are > tears billowing A corpse was doubled to divide its eternal reward > lamentable disinheritance compiles the attempt as turned, whipcord > impossible to make satisfied ordinary confirmation resuscitated to get > up and dye your coasting verse a thorough compliance roofed-over > examination a fortunate choice > avoiding cordials and habituations in turn, save us the > embodiments of pageantries well within the mar of thralldom, denominate > several English lines well-pleased with room to doubt, conclude these > points Elopement bred on the wind, assure yourself that with loud > pledges of performance materials are overawed enough of these pledges > will land you a World's Re no longer entirely without warning, play a > game storm and drying nets over two youths hardly broken that > beautiful pale face is my fate, substance scowling ourselves, Bohemia > was a place where the girls got as soon as possible, many books under her > fingers, closing > sounds are jarring to some, elements make promises, Klezmorim are long > gone, never to return from the courts at Syracuse Contempt biting her > lip, document styled the whole place > recent cloven eagerness inspired permission, to this despondency > without any account, conjoined specimens turning bounteous policy redounded > to spacious name, at least permanent accommodation a verbal charity, that > famous version plain poesy treacherously an inkling departed, reminded of > submissives grant autobiographical reserve, preserve my future > condition omitting modification, firm character that slays them, you, > Heather, you are caught in this cycle foreather whether you keep swimming > right around, or shy away like thunder A daub denying a daub in favor > of a daub, civilization rolls on on when heart shall be in this lean > religion, humiliation would have amours, promises before you part, win > a thousand contradictions to pass, no other prodigality keepsake > the efficacy of pining and disrest demanded guest an appeal to > unnatural errata sets down animosities swarm for that hunger and > proportion, death shades a to the woods I contrived peril, much > scribbled for maintain a claim until acquiescence is sent back you > find you are bought with money, scarce daub > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Kristin Palmer wrote: > Having just begun an MFA program, I am incredibly interested in this thread, > and here is the question with which I am currently struggling: how can I be > a productive member of the workshop? The instructor is decidedly steering us > away from traditional workshop modes, even tactfully fighting certain > students' suggestions that we adopt a more traditional workshop model (more > in terms of procedures, as opposed to discussion, I suppose, and some of > whom are probably reading this), emphasizing reading outside work as much > as, if not more than, traditional "workshopping," so I feel we're off to a > good start. An excellent one, really, in my mind. Now, what can I do to > help this along, make this a productive experience for me and for those to > whom I offer comments? The thing that strikes me as essential here is the emphasis on reading outside work. And finding out who in the workshop values what outside work, and for what reasons. And whether there is anything like a "group aesthetic" already in place (which could be a good or a bad thing or both), or whether there is a significant amount of dissonance in terms of poetic objectives and tastes (again, a potentially problematic and/or energizing possibility). If everyone is already "on the same page," e.g, interested in a certain kind of procedurally oriented poetry, or in challenging "voice-based" poetics, etc., you have the benefit of having some preliminary areas of inquiry laid out for you in existing dialogues and critiques, a conversation which you can simply (well, hopefully not "simply") pick up as you jump in. The downside to this would be the anxiety that people were just rejoining a program "already in progress." If you all already knew what kind of writing you wanted to do, that is, why would you a need a workshop in the first place, unless for the mutual gratification of compliments, encouragement, etc. If, on the other hand, there is a great deal of tension between opposing literary values, you have the benefit of a forum in which you can confront and analyze those tensions head-on, assuming the workshop leader is willing and equipped to field the potential heatedness that might ensue. The downside to this is the danger of the workshop becoming a big general polemic, and the work itself getting lost in the shuffle. To sum up everything I've said above: find out whether you all want to achieve the same kinds of things, and if so, ask why, and if not, ask why not. Either way, go for the self-critical tough questions. There's a skeptical part of me that says if someone is good enough to get accepted into an MFA program, a workshop is the last thing they need. A sensitive, attentive, and constructively critical community of readers, maybe, but not a round-table ritual of arbitrary dissection and "emotional response" that threatens to result, at best, in the successful dissemination and replication of the Master's values, and at worst, in a big useless exchange of flattery for some and bad vibes for others. > Case in point: Although I entered the workshop (and the program) completely > down with the idea of eschewing traditional workshop bullshit, I believe my > first actual "critical" comment in the class was "I'm not so sure about this > second to last line." (And I do believe there are cases where this comment > is relevant, maybe this was even one of them, but that's perhaps beside the > point) So, I've obviously got some serious de-programming of my own to do. > I did graduate to posing the question last week as to how we might usefully > "criticize" a less narrative, much denser piece. We spent some time just > talking about the inner workings of the piece, the effect of each word in > connection with the others, the significance of the undertaking of the > specific poem at all but I felt an internal pressure to offer some > "constructive criticism." Perhaps this is not nearly as useful as I have > been taught it is, however? Perhaps it is better to just talk about what we > see/hear/experience before us, how the poem is situated in a larger context > (of what? the world? depends on the piece, I suppose) and then leave it at > that, trusting that the process is much more internal and, dare I say it, > organic than any traditional workshop model would ever lead us to believe? Well, I think that the "traditional workshop model," no matter what it professes in its press releases, *does* operate on the assumption that the process is internal and organic--that is, it relies on (in Patrick Durgin's terms) the "self-evidence" model over and above a poetics of "self-reflectiveness," whether on the level of "craft" or "process." Maybe we need to make a distinction, however, between "organic" and "essentialized." > Given that the program I'm in is geared toward a more experimental model, > I'm especially interested in Kasey's example #3, Commodified Alternativity. > How does one identify this (esp. in one's own writing -- another struggle du > jour) and thoughtfully deal w/ it in a workshop? Were I infinitely > well-versed in various schools of experimental poetics, critical theory, the > works, I guess I'd feel more confident in making the distinction between > genuine/imitative (commodified). But I've read and heard enough to look > at/hear a lot of what's out there and think, "I've seen this a million times > already," so I guess that's a starting point. But here's another quandary: > oftentimes when I think that, it's not when I'm evaluating my classmates' > work, but the work of more "established" writers being held up as models in > the latest de riguer journals and readings, for example. I mean, aren't > there times when an experiment by a first-year MFA student for some reason > holds little currency, but the same experiment by, say, someone whose been > around St. Mark's for some time (say, between two and forty years -- and I > only choose St. Mark's as it's such an easy example) is bestowed with a > certain 'legitimacy.' Which is the true alternative and which is the > commodity? How do we decide? Honestly, I don't believe the poet is qualified to determine whether his or her work is "genuine." You just can't worry about this, at least not on the level of micro-refinement of the linguistic text that attends workshopping or even individual composition. What makes a form of writing commodified is not so much what it says or what it looks like as how it is packaged (that is, with other work by other people) and distributed, which is an editorial and industrial problem rather than an authorial one. Not that this is something that can't be addressed in a workshop, but I think that if the author tries, as a part of the process of writing, to second-guess the forces that make work either "real" or "fake," it just results in tepid or stiff poetry. If I had one piece of solid advice for someone in a workshop, it would probably be to try to write work that you feel somehow tests the limits of what a workshop can do or is intended to do. But then I'd probably be a very annoying person to have in a workshop. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Molly Schwartzburg Subject: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Molly Schwartzburg *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:17:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit emmanuel hocquard's _a test of solitude_ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Molly Schwartzburg" To: Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: sonnet experiments > I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting > variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can > think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially > interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the > "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > > Molly Schwartzburg > > > *** *** *** *** *** > Molly Schwartzburg > Doctoral Candidate > Department of English > Stanford University > Stanford, CA 94305 > 650-327-9168 > molly1@stanford.edu > *** *** *** *** *** > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:27:00 +1000 Reply-To: K.zervos@mailbox.gu.edu.au Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: K Zervos Organization: gu Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.poetinresidence.com/ slamming the sonnet - jayne fenton keane k -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg Sent: Friday, 20 September 2002 1:14 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sonnet experiments I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Molly Schwartzburg *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 9/19/02 8:13 PM, Molly Schwartzburg at molly1@STANFORD.EDU wrote: > I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting > variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can > think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially > interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the > "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. A few sonnet-based texts that spring immediately to mind: * Ted Berrigan, _The Sonnets_ [Burroughs-derived cut-up method] * Bernadette Mayer, _Sonnets_ [this and Berrigan's book are pretty much the most influential sonneteering models in the experimental canon] * Ron Padgett, "Nothing in that Drawer" from _Great Balls of Fire_ [consists of the title repeated 14 times] * John Ashbery, _Shadow Train_ [12-line stanza cycle] * Stephen Ratcliffe, _Idea's Mirror_ [not in recognizable sonnet form, but inspired by Michael Drayton's cycle--visually the most strikingly experimental of all these I've mentioned] * Aaron Shurin, _Involuntary Lyrics_ [as I recall, the last word in each line of each poem is the same as the last word in each corresponding line of Shakespeare's Sonnets] * Juliana Spahr, "Power Sonnets" [Self-publish or Perish chapbook--my favorite one consists of phrases from a Rolling Stone interview with Korn] * me, "The Dopes" [Self-publish or Perish chapbook--a cycle of 20 14-line poems, in a pseudo-elevated register, about things like oiled wooden squirrels, discarded raisins, and Maoists--slips into pentameter at times, even] also, Mike Magee has been doing some killer semi-aphasic hip-hoppy treatments of poems by George Herbert, et al., frequently in sonnet form Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: 10 minute letter poem challenge Comments: To: Martha L Deed , Webartery List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think I am going to have my workshop students (in class) write poems that are (indignant usually) letter poems, usually to entities other than real persons they know (I don't want sentiomental letters to Mom... I want daclarations of love to the plumber, angry complaints to Allen Greenspan blaming him for your digestive difficulties, letters to the post office complaining about the taste of the adhesive in stamps, etc) The idea is probably not to stick to the point but to digresss into random obsevations the recipient of such a letter wouldn't care about. Below are a few I dashed off... Does anyone else have any that I could use (or just be amused by)? Published poems in this genre also interest me but I don't have time to unnt them down probably before next week as I don't have access to an academic library and the public library would probably get it from a branch if it's obscure... Also, I was thinking of this more as a challenge to write a quick poem in 5 - 10 minuttes because I think that's what I will ask the particpants of my workshop to do. Dear Cape Cod Potato Chip Company, while it is true that your kettle-cooked chips are the best on the market, they make me sad, and I am writing to tell you that I never buy anything which is even in the same aisle as your chips I know the windmill on the package is supposed to make me imagine dazzling beaches, picturesque lighthouses, darling windmills – all painted by inferior watercolorists from Eastham but it only reminds me that I broke up with my last lover in Hyannis (and when I say last I mean last ever, for there will never be another) not that you could find a windmill there we almost died as the car went out of control on the rotary on Route 6, both of us screaming obscenities in shrill voices, our long hair streaming out opposite windows (yes I know it’s impossible) finally we got stuck going round and round with a Cape Cod Potato Chip truck honking at us to go somewhere anywhere “got a problem, girls?,” the driver yelled “I can recommend my shrink” and our Dark Russet Extra Intense Crunchy Flavor ____________ Dear Agent Goon (CIA), Please note that I am not involved in any communist, terrorist, or fascist activity. It was because of my anxiety that the needle jumped when you asked me that on my last polygraph I had forgotten my breakfast cereal, which can make a person anxious that and my cat had a hairball so please remove the record from my record I have been a good patriotic employee all my life I wouldn’t want this to ruin it just because I skipped breakfast and the cat and also my wife kept me up extra long doing the marital duty thing you’ll note that I’ve always been faithful which reduces the risk that an enemy agent could blackmail me she wanted to know how I justified working for you and I pointed to the house around us, the two sleeping children, the car in the garage the government’s been good to me so no way would I be involved in communist terrorist or fascist organizations, so please throw the record of yesterday’s polygraph in the office shredder. If not, and you know how I’d hate to even mention people’s personal lives at work what with the atmosphere of suspicion I could tell Agent Shades about your little tryst with the upper class Saudi boy we interrogated at the refugee camp in Jelalabad. Only one night, to be sure, but they won’t like homosexuality, child sex, and fraternizing with enemy aliens all at once.... you don’t know this, but I saved the card he wrote you “thanks for the feeling of bees in honey” in Classical Arabic I think I’ll put it in my briefcase this morning, just in case I know how to hide things, but it might just slip out during the security check. I just thought I’d warn you. So please tell the boss about my cat’s hairball on the irreplaceable Middle-Eastern rug (he’s a soft one for collectibles, especially the kind you don’t pay import taxes on like other Americans) and get me off the hook. Yours Truly, Agent Trench ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:59:36 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about Queneau's "mille million de sonnets" in which he makes up 14 sets of lines, with the lines in each set intended to be used intechangeabley (you are supposed to make a random choice) to make a symbolist sonnet. Amazingly, the sonnets sound as if someone composed them and as if there are figures of speaech amnd symbols and a theme... when in fact there is nothing of the sort in a ny real sense. He didn't cheat by giving them all the same symbols or theme either. Another subeversion of the sonnet cycle is John Hollander's "Powers of Thirteen" which looks just like a sonnet cycle except that it is made up of thirteen-line poems with thirteen syllables in each lime. Hollander's actual sonnets are also about as far as one can go from the traditional sonnet meter and stay sonnet-like in a "traditional" way , ie they are in VERY irregular iambic pentameter, with just enough lines that scan to make you feel the poems are traditional sonnets. Often it is dialogue that interrupts the flow of iambs, but sometimes Hollander just seems to choose something as un iambic as possible just to subvert the sonnetyness of the poems. The topic are also rather unsonnety even though many speak of love, ie two lovers have a fight over whether it is right or wrong to splat all over someon's car when committing suicide from the Empire State Building... Marilyn Hacker is less radical, but her novel in sonnets Love, Death, and the Changing of the Seasons takes the sonnet sequence to a new level of expressiveness and detail (in lower case, no rhymes, altered meter). By contrast, Vikram Seth's sonnet sequence novel "The Golden Gate" follows the traditinal form to a t but subverts sonnetary expectations by being about completely prosaic things such as working for the defense industry or having a rock band and doing pottery instead... Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:14 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sonnet experiments I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Molly Schwartzburg *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:03:50 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process Go For It! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kristin Palm" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: FW: "workshop" vs. "poetics": craft / process > ---------- > > Having just begun an MFA program, I am incredibly interested in this thread, > and here is the question with which I am currently struggling: how can I be > a productive member of the workshop? The instructor is decidedly steering us > away from traditional workshop modes, even tactfully fighting certain > students' suggestions that we adopt a more traditional workshop model (more > in terms of procedures, as opposed to discussion, I suppose, and some of > whom are probably reading this), emphasizing reading outside work as much > as, if not more than, traditional "workshopping," so I feel we're off to a > good start. An excellent one, really, in my mind. Now, what can I do to > help this along, make this a productive experience for me and for those to > whom I offer comments? (We're working towards answers to this in class as > well, but I'm curious what list members think). > > Case in point: Although I entered the workshop (and the program) completely > down with the idea of eschewing traditional workshop bullshit, I believe my > first actual "critical" comment in the class was "I'm not so sure about this > second to last line." (And I do believe there are cases where this comment > is relevant, maybe this was even one of them, but that's perhaps beside the > point) So, I've obviously got some serious de-programming of my own to do. I dont think so. One needs the "close reading" and the wider, general discussion. There are usually as many questions as answers; if not more. > I did graduate to posing the question last week as to how we might usefully > "criticize" a less narrative, much denser piece. We spent some time just > talking about the inner workings of the piece, the effect of each word in > connection with the others, the significance of the undertaking of the > specific poem at all but I felt an internal pressure to offer some > "constructive criticism." Perhaps this is not nearly as useful as I have > been taught it is, however? It's one way. Your/our/may/their everyone;s mind is flexible: we can opeate on different levels and benefit/ not benefit/use som/ none / reject or embrace or combinations of these. Of course "cut classes to read the books and look in obsure corners" but as long as you can get away and be in a position to say: well_ that_ was interesing, but I still want to do_ this_ At the end you will still be an individual: any attempt to de-individaulise (!) you will hopefully leave you the more an individual: but not thus unreceptive to new ideas. And not neccesarily not interested in cooperative work but therre is very littleof significance in literature or value produced that way: or if it is it isnt the main source... Perhaps it is better to just talk about what we > see/hear/experience before us, how the poem is situated in a larger context > (of what? the world? depends on the piece, I suppose) and then leave it at > that, trusting that the process is much more internal and, dare I say it, > organic than any traditional workshop model would ever lead us to believe? > > Given that the program I'm in is geared toward a more experimental model, > I'm especially interested in Kasey's example #3, Commodified Alternativity. > How does one identify this (esp. in one's own writing -- another struggle du > jour) and thoughtfully deal w/ it in a workshop? Were I infinitely > well-versed in various schools of experimental poetics, critical theory, the > works, I guess I'd feel more confident in making the distinction between > genuine/imitative (commodified). But I've read and heard enough to look > at/hear a lot of what's out there and think, "I've seen this a million times > already," so I guess that's a starting point. But here's another quandary: > oftentimes when I think that, it's not when I'm evaluating my classmates' > work, but the work of more "established" writers being held up as models in > the latest de riguer journals and readings, for example. I mean, aren't > there times when an experiment by a first-year MFA student for some reason > holds little currency, but the same experiment by, say, someone whose been > around St. Mark's for some time (say, between two and forty years -- and I > only choose St. Mark's as it's such an easy example) is bestowed with a > certain 'legitimacy.' Which is the true alternative and which is the > commodity? How do we decide? > Who cares: dont worry about what other's think: go your own way (given the receptivity I mentioned) and, well go for it! People respect idependence and originality of thought... > All in all, I'd say I'm working myself toward some answers (but only some!) > just by writing this (which perhaps affirms the notion that 'process' trumps > 'craft'), but I'm very curious as to what others think and interested in > (even hungry for) feedback. "Critcism and self critiscism" Mao tse Tung. Good luck and have fun. Enjoy it: dont take it all too seriously either. But work at it: its all grist... > kp Richard Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:55:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: joey wagner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JOEY WAGNER LASER #002 [excerpt] www.amazon-salon.com mcnamara-named-going just happened older girl sat while keep slaves term life wont must tell love making proper rider bother hind legs tossed spread wide show horny viewers children see jokes elderly believe why syllable comes Dewey Spanish War revealed first occasion really justice cloud dust moment first as mixture Blessed One flicked clit faster tongue resulted marks like flies cow caught sight new band Irish Republic Green Irish gather assimilate analyze stick water apparently accepted sister stock ready know totally short time known Late Vietminh began ride excruciatingly long only accepted sister stock ready vagina bears testimony ingrained appears hypnotize some sewing-machine Stranded again penetrated elicited revival mind old years destined try considered believe why syllable comes Zealanders lying all looked Fourth approximately many competencies leadership tramps Third proper provision light one continue miserables interelatedness between mind pulled up chair sat across two believe why syllable comes boards all industries Tenth going just happened Sheridan Burke Lord resulted marks like flies honest folk away Murderers some most densely packed tribes nomads short time pulled up chair sat across two keeping room long tell the guys three history textbooks those the earlier evening blankets first occasion really justice accepted sister stock ready quicksand boggy spot troubles competencies leadership the slowness first occasion really justice taking consistent virtual global itself every foul thing comes going just happened everything else beginning accepted sister stock ready pussy bounced returned ain't longer boat Fourth approximately many some most densely packed Micawber accepted sister stock ready arms employment said because seen like accepted sister stock ready pointed indentation left competencies leadership struck believe why syllable comes constrainedly gave aunt hand strengthen bodies connect kneeling one travels arrangement example smallest extreme rule accepted sister stock ready say always come nothing ease believe why syllable comes shade speak approach solitary returned ain't longer boat accepted sister stock ready pussy bears testimony ingrained realising close Nathan cumming the movement hands body touching down throat want taste every first occasion really justice accepted sister stock ready several Scotchmen servants competencies leadership the important first occasion really justice accepted sister stock ready goes order one received going just happened used frequently First-days competencies leadership fight last Nothing short paradox perhaps wrought little one obliged go one way say always come nothing desire arose degree fervent playing sure football one little schooner all continuous assessments way life appeared dark organised play youths who left shouldn't some most densely packed commented three history textbooks those the saying does regardless one arm flex shirt falls tongue paradox perhaps wrought little kind reason none only necessary worked own destiny won first occasion really justice the themselves disciplined life resist conquer recommended veneration present Figure compares strengths Micawber last letter fulfilled one four sorts slaves evening family meeting going just --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:00:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: adrian (viper) ross Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit adrian (viper) ross serial pulse-code telemetry001...[excerpt] www.inkbombdisposalunit.com Mayhap serpent minutes precluded opens portal Citation let beat sinned will put enmity barking dog Staff order destroy Rivers vexation dealt principle strict while put mountains told lowest Guebling desirous seeing Severely turned against leg refused majesty evacuation took met death Uzziah stronger known vexation dealt sixth division company refusing evacuation Sgt Rivers unto shall through two tank's fire onslaught beasts positions Adam gathered attired adorned diameter trunk barking dog Sgt Rivers fire onslaught beasts tanks daily morning Company withdrew While repaired Adam Sgt River's vexation dealt principle strict slay Mayhap God creatures crew Messer Romeo Gonzaga answered Wretch must animals less especially Mr Bumble divisions each piously Adam Eve thankfulness bringing down again neighbor's frightened lifted offense great know such matters Hanina made Juba see try twice man will man dry land appear carried off legs own way rather get disobedience every pity give Adam assured down all fours crawling sickness seized like moment thou whining like hound same verse bird Doug slammed cock deep inside Michel's full noxious dew hot wet dick pounded himself hard driving all way inside balls slapping against positioning Eve spent bit all embellished maintained Adam designated pressing hands against thighs also allowed keep legs spread far apart Wednesday ask hot little consequences hole Thenceforth see wetness glistening shaft cock pulled each thrust Michel's pussy lips puffy swollen hard clit poked rammed himself again again groaning cries different mouth sightless go occasionally more ye home morrow really good injunction Adam why all giving pussy quite workout cock body babe white contractions heavens enjoying announcing fond raven another dear remnant former children will size enormous seeing Oliver Adam Thus God most intently Let care hung against Lord proceeded just came own father glory horny skin who spirit call Christians answered questions soul must herself some sparks excepting only flame own breast questions soul creation man awhile Creator sun either side female strong see passionless watch Each these like Michael generation Mattel will ark bidding God consumers heavens fiery refund remonstrates dolls discontinue defiled Snacktime means ridding dolls evacuation ells high cannot dazed blood-approaches sins differences looking another awaiting song vulture majesty noticed science exceedingly Gen William Westmoreland commander sons sigh ruin ancestor Messiah flown up Uzziah forehead Saigon masters whole battered troops heard wainscoting fighting Pleiku merely intended opposed creation animal's understanding acquired children's stronger known faces separated Master Bates only messenger God good many ladies gentlemen man handles Christians between whom Mr Sikes forth make good string killed Thou didst give singular joined unto like resemblance Edwards who lives Hoke down Paradise repaired Adam assessments meant little bit more Sikes turned round where will cleave sleeping interested observed Well said resuming derives light remained still going need reconnaissance guys Thus one earth use remedies all same way Arka reported host pairs ark thou Force go little prep work Some sensors intercede who platforms use infrared technology can tell troops hidden acknowledge know need prep area anti- personnel bombs good quarry troops Sirs said last am whereupon gave went performs same resolution Enfeebled beyond Sant Angelo constrained end command cast wicked evil bath dive rose Yet dust ground wicked evil own mind none carry backs Labbiel Taught water flows Only who cleared Ruth word God emanating streams other moment two devours absorbs came dwellers undertones keeper sheep overtones Pleiades angel something incomplete struggling school home disharmonies seemed faces separated fettered force striving rapacity bosom says battling against itself Ra- Harmachis Egyptians likewise wings water angel opened children will corridors mocking luminary punishment Adam phantom ill fellow-man light warmth children will Norsemen Himself unto set pious wife two sons Jabal assigned pious pious enough interposed Sikes impatiently stooping recumbant perfect thy whispered few closed power ear Mr Crackit laughed announcing honoured Oliver petition Thou stare astonishment black man's tongue darted lapping precious thing gorgeous mounds while Michel possess more softly conceived Doug's timidity essence person catches up fiery Rodney sucked tits hands squeezed spirit call breast offered even fingers played grant one hundred feel dick angel opened rock hard created thee even comprehended good waters props abode first man snaked those dwell hand down side tracing gorgeous youths furnace cymbals organs Duke nodded mouth too full closed power said impatiently see Palestine one Remove adversary rejoined great world firmly one Remove adversary size enormous --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 04:30:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: SOCRATES IS A MAN Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Language is a word. The coffee, thick and tart like rain if sex were kiddie pool, finally finished and in your hands to warm them up. In the same direction as synchronicity, a car outside turns over as the central air kicks in. It's about that time. "Language is a word" is a sentence. The central air, black and sour as if rain carried a violin case down Eryk Salvaggio's street, kicks in every window of every abandoned car turning over in the steadily unbruising dawn. Your warm hands gaze longingly out the window. The kiddie pool, having been open all night, finally shuts off on a rush of spastic crenoline jets. In case you were wondering, all women are mortal. The time at the tone will be. "'Language is a word' is a sentence," she writes, quite pleased with the cleverness with which she has subverted the objecthood of the previous sentence and virtually uttered a novel thought. The rain spoke with a slight lisp, revealing its lower socio-economic origins; it had been promiscuous in its youth, and now, older, had retreated into a well-worn piety that felt like cars turning over and bursting into flame. All the sex in the house has molded, and must be thrown out. That happens in these climes; the children, exhausted after night-swimming until the rim of day, slip back into their caskets, sated until dusk trickles through the hinges again. In case you were wondering, you are now completely out of time. So much space in there I had to stand still. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 04:51:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ted Berrigan: master of the sonnet--impossible to go back to Shakespeare once you've been lost in "The Sonnets" Also, a lot of S. Howe's "Europe of Trusts" feels like sonnet sequences. Lots of Jean Valentine's earlier work (look in "Pilgrims" and the first book--forget the title...--approaches sonnet form, and the later work imitates the first part of the sonnet, a turn at then end, and then--nothing-- but that's all general, isn't it? ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Basinski Subject: looking for yo-yo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello - Looking for address of Other Publications + Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs - want to order books - Michael Basinski at basinski@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 18 Sep 2002 to 19 Sep 2002 (#2002-220) In-Reply-To: <200209200404.AAA09180@mailhub2.mail.cornell.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Around 12:03 AM 9/20/2002, Automatic digest processor wrote, >Hi Richard--Really, thanks for your generous note. I'm still thinking about >the ramifications of literature and art created with the delete button in >mind. Jess Though I am still not sure why the delete key on a computer is so very different from the spit-licked finger turning the page quickly to the next work in the literary magazine, or even the reader's hand that casually drops the entire journal back on the rack in the bookstore, lit unread other than a briefest glimpse into something that simply didn't appeal. Ron Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Garin Lee Cycholl Subject: Near South 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The second issue of Near South is now available. It includes work from: Jeff Clark, Linh Dinh, Sarah Livingston, Dodie Bellamy, Ray L'Hooq, Karen Volkman, Andrea Scott, Ron Silliman, Chelsey Minnis, Carmen Gimenez-Rosello, William Allegrezza, Lawrence Upton, Michael Antonucci, and Catherine Kasper. Copies are available for $5. Send requests to: Garin Cycholl 3617 W. Belle Plaine Chicago, IL 60618 We are also accepting submissions for our next issue. Send poems, minute/flash fictions, short one-act plays, rants, ravings, etc., to the address above. Questions to gcycho1@uic.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:51:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: sonnet experiments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You can find my "radical re-editings" of Shakespeare's Sonnets 1-6 in the latest Blaze Vox2k2 : http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/Blaze2/poetry.htm best, Igor Satanovsky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:58:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit some of the poems in Harryette Mullen's _Sleeping with the Dictionary_. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Gallagher Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Beth Anderson's "Hearsay Sonnets," in addition to those of Henry Gould are top notch. kg Molly Schwartzburg wrote: > I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting > variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can > think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially > interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the > "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > > Molly Schwartzburg > > *** *** *** *** *** > Molly Schwartzburg > Doctoral Candidate > Department of English > Stanford University > Stanford, CA 94305 > 650-327-9168 > molly1@stanford.edu > *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:47:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Prose Lyric Experiments: Waldrop in NAW 20 In-Reply-To: <3D8B2974.7CB63937@mbc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Since some posts are going by with blips about experiments, I just thought I'd mention this. Rosmarie Waldrop has been doing amazing stuff at the prose / lyric intersection for years, but I'm struck by her recent work as if for the first time. This, an exerpt from New American Writing #20: HOLDERLIN HYBRIDS III: EVENING SUN 1 On a balcony onto the Seekonk stands. And full of thoughts of winter. My friend. And drunk with red wine I. Think of the power. Of a single word. Like for example "fact." When I know what matters. Is between. * But how with gnarled hands hold the many and how? The sun and shadow of Rhode Island? Let alone the earth? * Down swoops the hawk. From the sky over Providence. The sky over my head. Down to the leaves inward curled on the ground. But not like buds. Yellow. A cat is buried here and the leaves. Swirl up in the wind. * In the hour of the hawk. What is meant by: I think? Or even: I sit under the clouds in which. Rain gathers weight. I sit in my mother's shawl which is. Threadbare. In my head I sit. By the river Euphrates. Strange like water the skies of the dead. * And high from the branches of the maple. Like a prelude to snow. White feathers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: new from Avec Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New From Avec Books Separate Parts (Six Memory Pieces) Martha King Pivotal Prose Series On New York's Lower East Side, the 1960s are just beginning. Separate Parts (Six Memory Pieces) explores a world of committed, vibrant, and insistently independent artists and writers struggling for freedom from the social limitations of that time. Beginning with her own life and that of her husband, poet/painter Basil King, Martha King doesn't gloss over the personal and political contradictions of the era; the struggles she describes are both heroic and deeply flawed. She shows that even on this rebellious frontier, one doesn't have to look far to find the seeds of contemporary corporate New York. Nevertheless, Separate Parts celebrates a world in which many people believed, often at desperate cost, in the power of art to transform the world. COVER ART BY BASIL KING $10; 89 pgs.; ISBN: 1-880713-30-6 Distributed by Small Press Distribution: www.spdbooks.org For additional information and excerpts: www.avecbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:40:23 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Igor---- Nice----- I hope you decide to do Sonnet #8 too.... Chris Isat@AOL.COM wrote: > You can find my "radical re-editings" of Shakespeare's Sonnets 1-6 > in the latest Blaze Vox2k2 : > http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/Blaze2/poetry.htm > > best, > Igor Satanovsky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mister Kazim Ali wrote: > Ted Berrigan: master of the sonnet--impossible to go > back to Shakespeare once you've been lost in "The > Sonnets" > > but that's all general, isn't it? > > yeah----care to elaborate? Chris > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:52:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: sonnet experiments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you , Chris I actually do have re-editings of Sonnets 7-8 , but i keep tinkering with these and other sonnets. who knows, maybe i will get enough of them to do a chapbook by the end of the year... igor _______ > > Hello Igor---- > > Nice----- > > I hope you decide to do Sonnet #8 too.... > > Chris > > Isat@AOL.COM wrote: > > > You can find my "radical re-editings" of Shakespeare's > Sonnets 1-6 > > in the latest Blaze Vox2k2 : > > http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/Blaze2/poetry.htm > > > > best, > > Igor Satanovsky > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:08:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 17 Sep 2002 to 18 Sep 2002 (#2002-219) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline New website likely of interest to members of the Poetics list: http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:20:40 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: epodaiflung Comments: cc: Jim Leftwich , jbberry@hiwaay.net, Eggvert8@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable a/polysemic web-scroll: epodaiflung http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/epodaiflung1.jpg (594k) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:29:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Prose Lyric Experiments: Waldrop in NAW 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I agree, for years now (and I say this unobjectively) staggeringly beautiful work, taking us in new and unexpected directions. Her work continues to be by far some of the most comprehensive treatment of prose/lyric stretches we have. Viva Rosmarie! Gerald (Him-Who-Gushes-At-Real) > Since some posts are going by with blips about experiments, I just > thought I'd mention this. Rosmarie Waldrop has been doing amazing > stuff at the prose / lyric intersection for years, but I'm struck by her > recent work as if for the first time. This, an exerpt from New > American Writing #20: > > > HOLDERLIN HYBRIDS III: EVENING SUN > > 1 > > On a balcony onto the Seekonk stands. And full of thoughts of > winter. My friend. And drunk with red wine I. Think of the power. Of > a single word. Like for example "fact." When I know what matters. Is > between. > > * > > But how with gnarled hands hold the many and how? The sun and > shadow of Rhode Island? Let alone the earth? > > * > > Down swoops the hawk. From the sky over Providence. The sky over > my head. Down to the leaves inward curled on the ground. But not > like buds. Yellow. A cat is buried here and the leaves. Swirl up in the > wind. > > * > > In the hour of the hawk. What is meant by: I think? Or even: I sit > under the clouds in which. Rain gathers weight. I sit in my mother's > shawl which is. Threadbare. In my head I sit. By the river Euphrates. > Strange like water the skies of the dead. > > * > > And high from the branches of the maple. Like a prelude to snow. > White feathers. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:49:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: the *other* Waldrop In-Reply-To: <002b01c260c2$f6322ac0$f9a4f943@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii has anyone read Mr Waldrop's lovely little trilogy? and does anyone know how one can get a print copy of "Garden of Effort" which figures so largely in Palmer's "Danish Notebook"? K --- schwartzgk wrote: > Yes, I agree, for years now (and I say this > unobjectively) staggeringly > beautiful work, taking us in new and unexpected > directions. Her work > continues to be by far some of the most > comprehensive treatment of > prose/lyric stretches we have. Viva Rosmarie! > Gerald > (Him-Who-Gushes-At-Real) ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 2 weekend events at Wordsworth Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 354 5201 SAT 9/21 at 5 PM Poets Steve Malmude + Miles Champion SUN 9/22 at 3 PM BEST AMERICAN POETRY 2002 with readings by Fanny Howe, Joseph Lease, Everett Hoagland, Jenny Boully, Benjamin Friedlander, Jennifer Moxley, Sarah Manguso, Peter Gizzi, Dara Wier and more. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:15:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Looking for Myung Mi Kim's email address. In-Reply-To: <002b01c260c2$f6322ac0$f9a4f943@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The email address I have for Myung is wrong. Can anyone provide me with her current email address at Buffalo? Please back-channel. Thanks--Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:29:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: the *other* Waldrop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe The Garden of Effort is scheduled to be reprinted in the near future by Paradigm Press...a downloadable pdf file of the entire book is available at: http://www.durationpress.com/archives Jerrold Shiroma, director duration press www.durationpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mister Kazim Ali" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: the *other* Waldrop > has anyone read Mr Waldrop's lovely little trilogy? > > and does anyone know how one can get a print copy of > "Garden of Effort" which figures so largely in > Palmer's "Danish Notebook"? > > K > > > --- schwartzgk wrote: > > Yes, I agree, for years now (and I say this > > unobjectively) staggeringly > > beautiful work, taking us in new and unexpected > > directions. Her work > > continues to be by far some of the most > > comprehensive treatment of > > prose/lyric stretches we have. Viva Rosmarie! > > Gerald > > (Him-Who-Gushes-At-Real) > > ===== > "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting > > behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" > > --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:44:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Dillon Subject: SO TO SPEAK SPRING SUMMER ISSUE 2002; SEEKS POETRY SUBMISSIONS & more MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am no longer poetry editor at So to Speak, but I felt the compulsion to=20 reformat and repost the STS info... I encourage all to submit and read on... sgd So to Speak: a feminist journal of language and art would like to announce=20 its Summer/Fall 2002 issue, which is now for available and features new work= =20 of Tina Darragh, Hannah Weiner, Eleni Sikelianos, Catherine Daly, Carol=20 Mirakove, Kristen Prevallet, Kaia Sand and others...also included in this=20 issue: Teasing Out Selves: A Conversation with Eleni Sikelianos... To order this issue please include, $6.00, or for a year subscription,=20 $11.00, via a check or money order made payable to So to Speak: So to Speak 4400 University Drive MSN 2D6=20 Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 Postmark deadline is October 11, 2002. To be considered for our annual contest, judged this year by Eileen Myles,=20 please submit 3-5 poems along with a ten-dollar entry fee via check or money= =20 order, made out to, So to Speak. PLEASE DO NOT SEND CASH. The entry fees ar= e=20 what make this contest possible. Entrants must send duplicates of their work= ,=20 one with entrant name and address information alongside copies of your work=20 without name and address information, as this is a blind judging. Please sen= d=20 a cover letter stating that this is a contest entry along with a SASE (self=20 addressed stamped envelope) to: So to Speak 4400 University Drive MSN 2D6=20 Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 attention editor (state genre) ***Poetry submissions are also being accepted outside of the contest*** For guidelines please visit: http://www.gmu.edu/org/sts =20 or email us: sts@gmu.edu. No email submissions please. You must include a SASE. Fiction =E2=80=A2 5000= word=20 limit =E2=80=A2 Double-spaced pages =E2=80=A2 Numbered pages Nonfiction =E2= =80=A2 4000 word limit=20 for articles (negotiable) =E2=80=A2 250 word limit for reviews =E2=80=A2 Dou= ble-spaced,=20 numbered pages =E2=80=A2 Poems should appear on the page as you wish to see=20= them=20 published. =E2=80=A2 Visual Art: Please do not send us original artwork; sen= d=20 photographs or slides. Black and white photography must be in print form. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:04:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: when blinded, blinded MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII when blinded, blinded, how how valiant, valiant, how war and thy declarations when blow again blow again trumpeter, trumpeter when blow again blow again trumpeter, trumpeter conjure - war's conjure alarums. war's thine out, eyes out, gouged how out, how cancers blow legless legless armless, armless, dead and further dead nuclear warhead warhead warhead detonate detonate o cities. nuclear and many planes and many planes and shadows, Targets and many planes and Targets technology; of these the disappearing people to come, the disappearing war to come, and technology and disappearing when the war comes, there will be another war when recording the war and yet another comes, other mute wars and reduced and silent mute screens, silent mute screens and brutal silence out and others other as wars screens will flicker and reduced and silenced out to men, slide women, back children, into the game slide of war and back of war. down men, into women,the game children, the children of war when blow again blow again trumpeter, trumpeter when blow again blow again trumpeter, trumpeter and further dead and reduced and silenced out === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:56:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Kenneth Koch Tribute In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kenneth Koch Tribute Reading Saturday, September 21st 8:00 p.m. Bill Berkson Micah Ballard Margherita Caron Chris Cobb Albert DeSilver Amanda Eicher Dick Gallup Brian Gigy Hilton Obenzinger Kit Robinson & more . . . . Adobe Book Shop 3166 16th Street San Francisco, CA ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:07:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: 10 minute letter poem challenge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1921815189-1032566846=:11145" --0-1921815189-1032566846=:11145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Note: forwarded message attached. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --0-1921815189-1032566846=:11145 Content-Type: message/rfc822 X-Apparently-To: jeffreyjullich@yahoo.com via 216.136.172.70; 19 Sep 2002 22:02:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Track: 0: 100 Return-Path: Received: from 66.163.169.96 (HELO web20420.mail.yahoo.com) (66.163.169.96) by mta524.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2002 22:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [212.96.2.104] by web20408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:02:01 PDT Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:02:01 -0700 (PDT) From: ibrahimabacha abacha Subject: VERY URGENT BUSINESS ASSISTANCE To: jeffreyjullich@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1076 DEAR SIR. PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL I got your contact from private search on the internet. I therefore decided to contact you for venture below. I am the second son of General Sanni Abacha, the late Military Head of State of Nigeria. When my father we alive I used to move funds, in cash, running into millions of United States dollars to Brazil, Lebanon and other parts of the world, for safe keeping on behalf of my father. However, on the eve of my father’s death in June 8, 1998, he gave me the sum of US$30,000,000.00 (THIRTY MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS) in cash to move to Lebanon as usual, but immediately my father died I had to moved the fund to Holland through a diplomatic courier service to a security company in Holland. The funds have been in the security company in Holland since July 1998. However, because of the many restrictions placed on my family by the present Nigerian Government, I simply cannot travel to Holland to secure the funds from the security company in Holland. What I now need from you are as follows:- 1.You should travel to Holland to secure the funds in cash on my behalf and deposit it in your bank account in your Country. 2.You will be entitled to 30% of the total sum involved for your assistance. 3.As soon as you confirm to me your readiness to travel to Holland, I will send a copy of my Power of Attorney to the security company in Holland authorizing them to release the funds to you. 4.As soon as you have the fund in your custody, I will give you details of where and which sector you will invest my share of the funds into, on my country. 5.Please note that this project is 100% risk free, but you must keep it very secret and confidential because of my personal security. Please contact me immediately through my e-mail address: ibrahimabacha4@yahoo.com Best regards, IBRAHIM ABACHA. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --0-1921815189-1032566846=:11145-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:12:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: 10 minute letter poem challenge [OOPS!] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii DEAR SIR. PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL I got your contact from private search on the internet. I therefore decided to contact you for venture below. I am the second son of General Sanni Abacha, the late Military Head of State of Nigeria. When my father we alive I used to move funds, in cash, running into millions of United States dollars to Brazil, Lebanon and other parts of the world, for safe keeping on behalf of my father. However, on the eve of my father’s death in June 8, 1998, he gave me the sum of US$30,000,000.00 (THIRTY MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS) in cash to move to Lebanon as usual, but immediately my father died I had to moved the fund to Holland through a diplomatic courier service to a security company in Holland. The funds have been in the security company in Holland since July 1998. However, because of the many restrictions placed on my family by the present Nigerian Government, I simply cannot travel to Holland to secure the funds from the security company in Holland. What I now need from you are as follows:- 1.You should travel to Holland to secure the funds in cash on my behalf and deposit it in your bank account in your Country. 2.You will be entitled to 30% of the total sum involved for your assistance. 3.As soon as you confirm to me your readiness to travel to Holland, I will send a copy of my Power of Attorney to the security company in Holland authorizing them to release the funds to you. 4.As soon as you have the fund in your custody, I will give you details of where and which sector you will invest my share of the funds into, on my country. 5.Please note that this project is 100% risk free, but you must keep it very secret and confidential because of my personal security. Please contact me immediately through my e-mail address: ibrahimabacha4@yahoo.com Best regards, IBRAHIM ABACHA. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:38:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: "stamps" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -send back the stamp- whenever I find myself a and a and above when the modest =20= sounds are especially comprehensive fixed not principled =20= as when many are found alive high time 9=A2 distant a = 4th=20 with a pistol this philosophical present dozen this =20 test pattern promise aim like census data a =20 handgun and a lead balloon tan and tense at dawn the=20 cause attendant claims to have the last day I intimate the=20= possible pass apparent when with line and style =20 mayhem and mayhem descend a and a and the and the once=20 fixed not printable a pistol a philosophical fashion the=20 president and native plastic normal plan then and navigate past =20= balloon with canned attendance dawn this cause a 10 plan=20= contaminate like taste conduct send half that and a=20 sentence especially that soft highly dynamic that cause=20 any cause a pen then another cause of semblance like a=20 comment like a possible cutback= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:27:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Clements Family Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Molly, It has been fairly common practice since Ez exhorted everyone to make it new to write non-sonnet sonnets. So you might consider looking back even further than 60. Recently, Bill Knott leaps to mind: check out his many sonnets and bastardizations of the form scattered throughout his various books. Knottily, Brian Clements -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:14 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sonnet experiments I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Molly Schwartzburg *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:48:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Blue Tape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (for the upcoming conference on Kathy Acker - might be of interest. - Alan) The Blue Tape I was still married to Beth and heard Kathy read and Kathy came and Beth moved in with Ed and Bernadette had moved out or moved out then and Beth and I had been together four and a half years more or less. Kathy and I began writing each other; she placed me in the position of her father; I thought she was my soulmate. Ed had a copy of her diary; I pasted the letters in it. Later I gave it to Tom who passed it on to Chris. I don't know where it is now. Kathy came one night when Beth left and the next day and next few days were terrible; we made the tapes - there were more than one - in the midst of the terror. Emily, who had been my student at R.I.S.D., filmed the materials on an EIAJ black-and-white Sony deck, I think 3600. They were filmed at my apartment, which Ed's brother Tom, I think, had found us, on 16h or 17th street; perhaps it was his. I had been working in video and writing; Kathy had been writing; I sugges- ted we do a tape to pay for her coming out from the coast. We got a bit of advance booking. Everything fell apart between us. She had worked in Times Square; I suggested we explore sexuality on the tapes and she agreed. I'd been working on and off in a messy narrative style, which I still do. There was no editing beyond starting and stopping the camera. At least one of the other tapes was an inverse of the one we showed. We pushed things as far as we could. I felt needy. I hated myself. I remember Kathy being suicidal, accidently locked out of the flat when Emily and I took a break; she'd wanted to be alone. Neither of us were in great shape. I forget whether we made the tapes all that day or over a couple of days. I forget the sequence. We showed the tapes at St. Mark's and there was dead silence afterward. Vito was there. I think it was then that Jackson was there as well. Kathy said You've had your fun, children, now go home. or something to that effect. People were upset. Jackson said it was a very brave thing you did. We showed the tape at Yale and everyone laughed. We showed the tape at R.I.S.D. and everyone cried. At R.I.S.D. we went to an opening and someone came on to me who had been a student and I wasn't used to that and she came to the flat on 16th or 17th street and we had a short affair, but that led to another story. I showed the tape at San Diego, or maybe it was Cal Arts, or maybe both. I don't remember. I'd never been able to watch the tape; it was too painful. It still is. After the California showing, I said I didn't want to show it again, and Kathy thought that was ok. (We agreed only to show the tape with mutual consent.) I didn't for years, until it was revived and shown in various places and I'd moved on and so had she. I was teaching at Hartford Art School and asked David to take it in for a grant application; he ran 'the dirty parts' for his students and swore them to secrecy. One of the students told me, crying hysterically, at the end of the year. Kathy thought I was crazy and I thought she was crazy. Sometimes I'd hear a hello from her later on. We did, back at that time, a complex electronic piece for WBAI, again about love, control, etc., the usual subjects. It went well but I don't think it was broadcast, but then I don't know. I don't know where "The Blue Tape" title came from; I don't think we'd given it/them titles, but I'm not sure. What else? I'm glad the tape's out there and being seen again. There was a recent article on it on the net; I thought most of it was wrong or slanted but that's to be expected. Every time it comes up, those days come back to me. And those days are long gone. Bernadette didn't speak to me again. I was with her sister for a while. Vito and I stopped speaking. Around 1977 I moved out of New York and around 1990 I moved back. A lot has happened since then. Alan Sondheim, sondheim@panix.com Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt http://www.furtherfield.org/asondheim/ Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:34:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Reading September 27 Comments: To: dtv@mwt.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a well-merited Zap!, miEKAL. Allow me to respond on behalf of George. Montreal is in the nation of Quebec. DB -----Original Message----- From: mIEKAL aND To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Reading September 27 >what country is that in? > >George Bowering wrote: > >> I will be reading at the McGill University library in Montreal at >> noon on the 27th. >> -- >> George Bowering >> No pie. No chocolate. >> Fax 604-266-9000 > >-- >mIEKAL aND >dtv@mwt.net > >Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org >Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:34:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: sonnet experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Excuse me, but around the time Ez said "make it new," Bill Williams said something like the sonnet is a dead form, & I'm not aware of anyone before Ted Berrigan touching the sonnet in any sort of attempt to breathe life into it. Maybe there's someone you (meaning any of you) know of; in which case, please fill me in. I think, as Kasey said, the examples that tend to be of continuing interest to most people on this list would be Berrigan's _The Sonnets_, published in the 60s, and Mayer's _Sonnets_, published in the late 80s. Both are great books. I don't really see the other texts Millie mentions as being of much impact in this context, whatever their merits-- but again, I'm willing to be filled in. (And I have heard that Ashbery said that _Shadow Train_ was not intended as a _sonnet_ sequence-- so whether that text pertains to this discussion, I don't know). I might also mention Anselm Hollo's recent (since circa the mid-90s) sonnets. Again, despite their merits which I certainly would argue, I'm not sure of how much they pertain to the original question.... Mark DuCharme >From: The Clements Family >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: sonnet experiments >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:27:22 -0500 > >Molly, > >It has been fairly common practice since Ez exhorted everyone to make it >new >to write non-sonnet sonnets. So you might consider looking back even >further >than 60. Recently, Bill Knott leaps to mind: check out his many sonnets and >bastardizations of the form scattered throughout his various books. > >Knottily, >Brian Clements > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:14 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: sonnet experiments > > >I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting >variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can >think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially >interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the >"sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. > >Thanks in advance, > >Molly Schwartzburg > > >*** *** *** *** *** >Molly Schwartzburg >Doctoral Candidate >Department of English >Stanford University >Stanford, CA 94305 >650-327-9168 >molly1@stanford.edu >*** *** *** *** *** <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:41:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: sonnet experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh, and another, very different work-- Bruce Andrews' _Sonnets (Memento Mori)_. Is that still in print, or reprinted anywhere?-- Mark DuCharme <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: it fell In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it fell it fell upon human remnants AntarcticOUTPUT Antarctic telescope the evening sky Antarctic telescope the evening sky a very curious OUTPUT the last notice Tell us a reddish-white color Tell me AntarcticOUTPUT Antarctic cataclysms in signal OUTPUT Antarctic cataclysms with reddish-white color the last notice this time could have been cataclysms flower-beds that fell upon me AntarcticOUTPUT Antarctic thinking without considering the last notice a flower-beds fell upon me AntarcticOUTPUT Antarctic thinking without considering flower-bed last notice They couldn't have been cataclysms in 1963 unwillingly signal OUTPUTs Antarctic telescope the unwillingly it's very curious in an offended tone with a two-part color the last notice this time They could have been many things in 1963 cataclysms signal OUTPUT Antarctic monitoring the Dormouse after thinking without considering signal OUTPUTs Antarctic telescope the last notice a two-part color the thing They could have been many things signal thinking without signal OUTPUTs Antarctic sky in signal OUTPUT Antarctic thinking without considering cataclysms signals evening monitoring the evening sky AntarcticOUTPUT Antarctic monitoring the last notice this time They could have been cataclysms signal OUTPUT Antarctic telescope thinking without considering cataclysms in tone OUTPUT the evening tone Antarctic thinking without considering the evening sky Tell us a reddish-white last notice a Antarctic telescope OUTPUT tell us evening sky output ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:33:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: THE SHIPPING FORECAST Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE SHIPPING FORECAST The striking thing about reading these pieces is that High Rockall and the general synopsis you find that the area for the next 24 hours is please. please. when all is said & when all is there are other considerations like the last Samurai you know the one that followed all the others like words? The striking thing about reading these pieces is that a new shipping area FitzRoy came into effect and you find that the area for the next 48 hours is stop. now. listen to the beginning like site reading the sight reading when all is increasing or decreas- there are other explorations like John Rae better than Man Ray or the road to Antarctica is paved with Maxwell Davis wouldn't you say? The striking thing about needing these pieces is that full details are included in our Marine(s) the weather services. North or Northwest 4 increasing 5 or 6, becoming cyclonic for a time. there are other illuminations like the celebrated Mr Kite celebrating his would you say kite? or was he really sitting at the quay of the bay? The striking thing about dreaming these pieces is that Forties when 4 or 5 occassionally even Dogger or Fisher or the German Bight needs occasionally to rest, maybe in Humber, later. there are other accumulations and if you look at the city she conquered you will only see New York lying at her feet. She never made it into Julliard. Something about the way she held the cello. THE SHIPPING FORECAST issued by Lakey Teasdale ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:31:14 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: sonnet experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark----- early cummings methinks... Mark DuCharme wrote: > Excuse me, but around the time Ez said "make it new," Bill Williams said > something like the sonnet is a dead form, & I'm not aware of anyone before > Ted Berrigan touching the sonnet in any sort of attempt to breathe life into > it. Maybe there's someone you (meaning any of you) know of; in which case, > please fill me in. I think, as Kasey said, the examples that tend to be of > continuing interest to most people on this list would be Berrigan's _The > Sonnets_, published in the 60s, and Mayer's _Sonnets_, published in the late > 80s. Both are great books. I don't really see the other texts Millie > mentions as being of much impact in this context, whatever their merits-- > but again, I'm willing to be filled in. (And I have heard that Ashbery said > that _Shadow Train_ was not intended as a _sonnet_ sequence-- so whether > that text pertains to this discussion, I don't know). I might also mention > Anselm Hollo's recent (since circa the mid-90s) sonnets. Again, despite > their merits which I certainly would argue, I'm not sure of how much they > pertain to the original question.... > > Mark DuCharme > > >From: The Clements Family > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: sonnet experiments > >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:27:22 -0500 > > > >Molly, > > > >It has been fairly common practice since Ez exhorted everyone to make it > >new > >to write non-sonnet sonnets. So you might consider looking back even > >further > >than 60. Recently, Bill Knott leaps to mind: check out his many sonnets and > >bastardizations of the form scattered throughout his various books. > > > >Knottily, > >Brian Clements > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg > >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:14 PM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: sonnet experiments > > > > > >I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting > >variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can > >think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially > >interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the > >"sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > >Molly Schwartzburg > > > > > >*** *** *** *** *** > >Molly Schwartzburg > >Doctoral Candidate > >Department of English > >Stanford University > >Stanford, CA 94305 > >650-327-9168 > >molly1@stanford.edu > >*** *** *** *** *** > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > 'A sentence thinks loudly.' > > -—Gertrude Stein > > http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm > > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:30:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: mick wolf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mick wolf irreversible dissociation005...[excerpt] www.textmodificationstudio.com JUNE 25. - A JUNE 26. - B JUNE 27. - T of fire, an so that " "Go on girl I looked ov I watched i I felt an or als you spe - No. They a everyone co d these ind ou give me freemas heir surviv asons posse orked for t s committed f l them the L indifferen why the man lives in ac rtune. 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Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: from "Mark DuCharme" at Sep 20, 2002 10:34:00 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Mark DuCharme: > > Excuse me, but around the time Ez said "make it new," Bill Williams said > something like the sonnet is a dead form, Mark, for what it's worth - and this doesn't really mess w/ you overall point methinks - The WCW quote is significantly later than the Ez - it's from his Introduction to _The Wedge_, 1944: "It isn't what [the poet] *says* that counts as a work of art, it's what he makes, with such intensity of perception that it lives with an intrinsic movement of its own to verify its authenticity. Your attention is called now and then to some beautiful line or sonnet sequence because of what is said there. So be it. To me all sonnets say the same thing of no importance. What does it matter what the line 'says'?" As Kasey mentioned I've been messing around with the sonnet form lately - or more specifically with the rhetoric of the renaissance short lyric as a kind of ghost-structure, like giving Westminster Abbey to Frank Gehry and saying, "Could you build me something mad stupid out of this?" or something like that (!). But, however I mihgt want to modify Williams' stipulation here it remains for me one of the more provocative poetics staments around. Incidentally, there's a sonnet by John Peale Bishop called "A Recollection" (ca 1930?) which is a boroque and mythological sex scene (think "Leda and the Swan" light and fluffy) - and an acrostic, reading down the left margin as FUCK YOUH ALFA SS. That's "Fuck you, half-ass," to you and me cuz. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 08:13:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ORPHANS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There are some bastards in this world, that's for sure. Orphans are files that have no application to skin them. I was still fuzzy when I rolled over to pet the cat; Renee, who has rolled over also, begins picking something from my back. In such cases the body turns on itself, literally "eating" itself to maintain the disease state. Hawks circle over the trees. I turn my eyes backward in their sockets to watch the blue flecks jangle in the dark, which is fortunate enough to be everywhere, slicking her hair like oil rolling down her legs as the steam of a shower warms morning noisy with patter frequencies, engaged in absorbtion with change spilling liquid like consonance or consience from woodgrain. A good train of arias flutter with hummingbird panache chakras lullaby'd and spinning lids for thought tall and planes naturalize citizens from huddling masses to demographic sandwhiches; in cases like this the body literally "eats" itself, Iraq and Afghanistan in its mouth dribbling oil down her legs to print her toes in psychedelic show at the bathtub Fillmore, Bill Graham quite proudly out in the mackeral tracking device, registers a redness on the screen to survey less of celibacy and more the promiscuous cunning. I cum money, was rally for artfulness today. Smoking mostly, salmonella knows how nice it is outside today, with the sun getting closer and closer to burning the toppermost popping epidermal to bliss. To be outside today is living for tomorrow; war by rote for market analyst silver in peacetime aging, the agent with the Lugar reminds us, is what you too will want after the implants begin; round and around is a confusion of motion with shape, not enough to startle us from our television pleasure but more likely to finish shimmying up the gold chain dangling from the rapper's artificial contacts. They're skinning orphans in the square again, those bastards with the money falling from their artillery belts. I roll over to pet the cat; Renee has already slept for years, and watches the circling hawks with apprehension. We have no application to confuse our motion with our shape; opening, we only display a prompt in search of a context of software. The disease state, the agent with the hunger reminds us, is the richest and most powerful country in the world. We're so lucky! ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:36:59 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: WIRE IS THE SOUL OF ELECTRICITY - Part one of a new list from Heart Fine Art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buzzing in sympathetic unison: Abromovic, Ackling, Appel, Arp, Art Brut, Bataille, Beecroft, Boltanksi, Burroughs, Buren, Cage, Cahiers Du Cinema, Cesar, Christo, Constant, Debord, Delaunay, Descargues, Duchamp, Eluard, Emin, Faecke, Fine, Flavin, Fulton, Furnival, General Idea, Gilbert & George, Haacke, Hamilton, Hugo, Immendorff, Iris Time, Jones, Joyce, Koons, Lax, Leger, Long, Mac Low, Magritte, Man Ray, Marien, Mayakovski, Meyer, Molinier, Nauman, Nieuwe Realisten, Oldenburg, Panderma, Patterson, Penrose, Picasso, Rainer (Yvonne), Rauschenburg, Raysse,Ramos, Rubber Stamp Art, Ruscha, Sade, Saint-Phalle, Sigma, Situationism, Schmit, Schwitters, Shiomi, Stockhausen, Tapie, Tauber-Arp, Trocchi, Tudor, Ulay, Vautier, Vostell, Wilson, Young, Zazeela Abromovic, Marina and Ulay PERFORMANCE - MARINA ABRAMOVIC/ULAY ULAY/MARINA ABRAMOVIC Geneva: Association Museed'art Moderne, 1977 10 x 14.5cm invitation card. Recto: the artists with their hair braided together facing away from each other - the opposition prefiguring their eventual break as lovers and co-performers since after each walking half of the length of the Great Wall of China from opposite ends, they met and agreed to separate forever. Not a love story. Verso: gallery information. Fine condition 15 uk pounds Abromovic, Marina and Ulay RELATIONS DANS LE MOUVEMENT INSTALLATION Geneva: Galerie Marika Malacorda, 1977 10 x 14.5cm 4pp invitation card. Two b/w images of the artists' performance (one image is a time lapse photograph) at the Paris Biennale where Ulay drove a car round and round for an indeterminate time while Abromovic announced, from within the car, the number of turns undertaken. Fine condition 20 uk pounds Ackling, Roger, Hamish Fulton, Richard Long and Michael O'Donnell ROGER ACKLING, HAMISH FULTON, RICHARD LONG, MICHAEL O'DONNELL Cornwall, UK: St Ives September Festival, 1980 21 x 30cm, 12pp plus covers. Documentation of 4 temporary works by the land artists that were all situated in West Penrith, Cornwall, England. Each has 2pp including a full page b/w illustration of the work. Fine from an edition of 750. 20 uk pounds (Tapie, Michel) Appel, Karl and Cesar APPEL CESAR Paris: Rie Droite, 1955 33 x 25 cm, 4pp b/w exhibition catalogue. 3 b/w illustrations (two Cesar sculptures and 1 Appel painting). Short essay in French by Michel Tapie and an original poem by Emmanuel Looten in praise of Appel ("Appel, Appel"). Scarce period publication in very good condition albeit some closed slight tears and bumping to extremities. 75 uk pounds Arp, Jean/Hans, Delaunay, Sonia, Magnelli, Alberto and Tauber-Arp, Sophie. UNTITLED PORTFOLIO Paris, Aux Nourritures Terrestres, 1950 Folio. Portfolio in original cardboard folder (damaged but repaired) containing 10 original colour lithographs + 2 additional sheets - content of collaborations among Arp, Delaunay, Magnelli and Tauber-Arp. Only 150 copies of this rare publication were printed on Arches paper and signed by Arp, Delaunay, Magnelli and stamped by Taeuber-Arp. Title page printed in colour with an additional colophon page displaying small illustrations of all of the lithographs. Sadly somewhat foxed but very rare. 3,000 uk pounds (Art Brut) "SCOTTIE" WILSON/DENIS WILLIAMS London: Gimpel Fils, 1950 8vo, folded b/w offset sheet exhibition catalogue - includes short notes by Wyndham Lewis and E.L.T. Mesens and biographies of the two artists. Laid in is the folding single page prospectus for Aeply replicas. Fine. 75 uk pounds (Bataille, George) Lord Auch. HISTOIRE DE L'OEIL Paris: Burgos, 1950, A later edition of this erotic surreal novel written originally under Bataille's pseudonym (the attribution continued here) this is a numbered example from an edition of 500. A very good example. Scarce in this format. 185 uk pounds Beecroft, Vanessa VB 08-36 Vanessa Beecroft Performances Germany: Hatje Cantz, 2001 29 x 22cm, 176pp plus printed boards. Effectively a catalogue raisonne of Beecroft's performances (and prints). Full colour reproductions throughout. Very good copy. 20 uk pounds (Boltanksi, Schneeman, Messenger and others) BEETHOVEN MUSIC FOR THE MILLIONS Arnhem: Stichting Festival, 1977 21 x 15cm, 28pp plus printed wrappers. Programme in advance with original artist's contributions for the annual Stichting Festival. Approx. 40 b/w reproductions of works or original contributions by 14 participating artists including 1pp of 4 b/w small photographs by Boltanski, (presumably an original contribution/documentation of "Les 21 vetements de Francois C. en 1972") and a one page work by Messenger (Quel beau spectacle). Fine condition. 65 uk pounds Boltanski, Christian. LOST. Dublin/Glasgow: CCA and Tramway, Glasgow, 1994. 10 x 15 cm. embossed folio-folder with ribbon-tie, content of four texts (50 pp. combined), each housed in individual vari-coloured folder, a single glossy offset sheet of 64 photo-based b/w images (housed in vari-colored folder), two sets of 24 b/w photo-based card images (2 x 6 cm., respectively) and 4 b/w photo-postcards documenting the title installation (4 5/8 x 6 3/4cm., respectively) + contents sheet. First issue of this intriguing assemblage multiple by Boltanski, after a project which was exhibited in Dublin and Glasgow. A poignant and provocative work. All elements intact and in fine estate in like folio-folder. Scarce thus. 65 uk pounds (Belgium Surrealism) Broodthaers, Marcel LA CAUSE EST ENTENDUE. Affiche-Manifeste du 1er juillet 1947 Paris, 1947 43 x 27 cm 1pp offset manifesto broadside content of the text "Le Surralisme sera ce qu'il n'est plus" written by Broodthaers and signed in print by many of the French (Allen, Arnaud, Battistini, Biton, Bucaille, Bureau, Daussy (Paulette), Daussy (Raymond), Dumayet, Halpern, Jaguer, Juin, Justet, Laude, Passron, Tardos, Tibor) and Belgium (Arents, Bourgoignie, Broodthaers, Chavee, Dotremont, Hamoir, Havrenne, Holyman, Lefranco, Lorent, Lude, Moreau, Rigot, Scutenaire, Seeger, Soimon, van de Spiegle) surrealists. Very good condition. Scarce. 195 uk pounds Buren, Daniel and Sol Lewitt DANIEL BUREN SOL LEWITT Grenoble: CNAC, 1986 32.5 x 25cm (closed size) printed folder which opens out to reveal two pockets - one containing a 16pp plus card covers exhibition catalogue (41 small b/w illustrations of the artist's installations with text in French and English) and four, 98 x 41 cm folded posters of the installations (image sizes within the posters vary, 4 posters are of Buren's large striped constructions and 2 are of the large Lewitt wall painting ("Pyramids") and a further poster reproduces Lewitt's instruction drawing used by gallery assistants to create the work). Fine in very good (slight grubbiness to front) folder. 65 uk pounds Cage, John & David Tudor. INDETERMINANCY: New Aspect of Form in Instrumental & Electronic Music. New York: Folkways (FT 3704), 1959. Two 12" 33 rpm recordings + 8pp. booklet with texts by Cage and b/w photos by David Gahr. Housed in original card box. First issue of this collaborative soundwork composed of readings by Cage of stories at the rate on one per minute, which were designed to sync with Tudor's solo piano excerpt from 'Concert for Piano and Orchestra (1958)'. Both discs + booklet in excellent estate in box with some light wear. Very scarce. 135 uk pounds CAHIERS DU CINMA. Revue mensuelle du cinma et du tlcinma. Nos. 2-38. Paris, 1951-1954. Uniformly 4to - 37 issues. Pagination varies as per issue. Mostly very good copies. 450 uk pounds Christo STORE FRONT NY: Letter Edged in Black Press, 1968 28 x 17.5 cm, 2pp mylar and heavy paper multiple which is in effect an instruction drawing for a Christo store front - the hinging of the piece allows the exterior and interior to be viewed separately or as one (through the transparent 'windows'). Fine. 75 uk pounds Signed by the artist Constant LES VISITEURS DU VERNISSAGE. 25 dessins de CONSTANT, 31.XII.1987. Amsterdam: Wiet van Rossum, 1987. Small folio. An original portfolio of 25 lithographs by the urban utopianist in the original slipcase. Title-page, colophon and 25 plates. Only 40 signed and numbered copies were produced by Constant on handmade paper. This is an association copy, dedicated by Constant to the previous owner. Very good condition. rare. 750 uk pounds Corrected association copy Debord, Guy DE LA MISERE EN MILIEU ETUDIANT Strasbourg, s.p.,1966 First edition of this book which was formerly owned by Debord and contains 5 notes within it in Debord's own hand relating to corrections he wished to see in a subsequent edition. Thus rare and interesting. Very good condition. 2,250 uk pounds (Le Daily Bul) Descargues, Pierre GARVITES MALIGNES ET AUTRES CAUSES DE L'HARMONIE DES SPHERES DANS L'OEUVRE DE POL BURY Belgium: le Daily Bul, 1980 18 x 14cm, 104pp plus wrappers and dj. Polarised images of a sphere balanced on a cube surmount the author's text (firstly a 'log' of sphere-cube interaction, later a philosophical treatise) throughout. One of 1,000 numbered copies. Very good condition. 35 uk pounds (Duchamp, Marcel) Marcel Duchamp: Manual of Instructions for Etant Donnes: 1) La Chute D'Eau 2) Le Gaz D'Elairage USA: Philadelphia Museum of Art. 1987 Folio, unpaginated (approx 56pp with many foldouts) and baord covers complete with original publisher's paper wrapper and 4pp insert (as issued). This facsimile of Duchamp's notebook supplied by the artist to the Museum when taking ownership of Duchamp's last great work. With an introduction by Anne d'Harnoncourt this is a marvellous example of how museum printing and use of copyright should be and is genuinely insightful into Duchamp's construction. Fine. 60 uk pounds Eluard, Paul and Leger, Fernand. LIBERTE / J'ECRIS TON NOM. Avec illustrations en couleurs de Fernand Leger. Paris: Ed. Seghers, 1953. 4to, leporello (29 x 112 cm unfolded). A second edition of this "pome-objet". Very fine copy. 850 uk pounds (Picasso) Eluard, Paul CORPS MMORABLE. AVEC UN POME LIMINAIRE PAR JEAN COCTEAU. Paris, Seghers, 1957. 4tro 68pp plus boards in original dustwrappers designed by Picasso. First edition of this work which is illustrated with 12 erotic female nudes by Lucien Clergue - the first publication of Clergue's nude portraits. Some previous damage to the wrappers has been carefully repaired - but otherwise very good. Scarce. 350 uk pounds OFFERED WITH A CHARITY DONATION INCLUDED (Emin, Tracey, Mona Hatoum, Chris Ofili, Eno, Kiki Smith, Sam Taylor-Wood, and others) NURTURE AND DESIRE London: Breakthrough Breast Cancer, 2000 16 x 16cm, 48pp plus embossed boards in original sealable plastic wrapper. Exhibition catalogue for a charity show at the Hayward Gallery, London which reproduces works donated by the artists in full colour (19 full page illustrations) with texts about the artist. Fine condition. We hold several of this publication and will donate 50% of our price of this item for each sold to a breast cancer charity (this is Breast Cancer Awareness Month in the UK). 12 uk pounds (Filliou, Robert, Ken Friedman Alison Knowles, Ben Vautier, Robert Watts and Others) CENIZAS Nr. 6 San Francisco: Cenizas, 1980 8vo, 30pp plus card covers. Self folded and bound. Tipped in 10.5 x 9cm, 30pp, stapled artist's book by Larry Wendt (Earthworm). Ben's contribution is noteworthy - a poem edited from a facsimile reproduction of his letter from Berlin to the editor (Mike Crane) by the selection of sections underlined by Vautier. A single issue of this artist's publication with original and reproduced contributions. Fine. 35 uk pounds Fine, A. M. PIECE FOR FLUXORCHESTRA New York, NY: ReFlux Editions, 1983. 9.3 x 12 x 1.6 cm, transparent plastic box from the original Fluxus source with 25 offset printed cards (some are vintage, others re-printed). The instructions for a 15 minute performance using 15 performers (who remain anonymous amongst the audience until required) are very co-ordinated and great fun. With vintage Maciunas-designed label. Fine. 50 uk pounds Flavin, Dan. Fnf Installationen in fluoreszierendem Licht. / Zeichnungen, Diagramme, Druckgraphik 1972 bis 1975 und zwei Installationen in fluoreszierendem Licht. Basel, Kunsthalle / Kunstmuseum, 1975. 8vo, 110 pp plus wrappers. Many b/w illustrations of Falvin installations, instruction drawings, prints etc. See the light. Very good condition 95 uk pounds Fulton, Hamish. HAMISH FULTON WALKING ARTIST London: Annely Juda Fine Art, 1998 25 x 17 cm, 32pp full colour pages plus printed wrappers. Solely composed of texts and colour photographs of artist's works in a gallery depicting the documentation of a series of walks. Fine example. 20 uk pounds Fulton, Hamish. WALKING THROUGH England: Stour Valley Project, 1998 21 x 16 cm, 44pp plus printed wrappers. As usual solely composed of texts and colour photographs of artist's works as usual depicting the documentation of a series of walks. Numbered and signed from an edition of 500. Fine example. 50 uk pounds General Idea THE ARMOURY OF THE 1984 MISS GENERAL IDEA PAVILLION Tokyo: Setagaya Art Museum, 1987 30 x 21cm, 24pp plus printed wrappers. Nine full colour heraldic designs (poodles) and several b/w small illustrations of works and 1 large portrait of the group dresses as poodles. Text mostly in Japanese although legends are in English. Fine. 15 uk pounds Gilbert & George FOR AIDS PICTURES SCREENSAVER London: CyberArt Publications, n.d (circa 1998) Standard picture audio CD in jewel case with 4pp insert. The disc contains a screensaver displaying the works of G&G for both Macintosh and Windows 95 personal computers. Unlimited edition, originally issued as a benefit for Crusaid. Fine. 15 uk pounds Haacke, hans HANS HAACKE. Volume II works 1978 - 83. London/Eindhoven, Tate Gallery/ Van Abbemuseum, 1984 27 x 21cm, 124pp plus printed card covers. Exhibition catalogue - effectively a catalogue raisonne of Haacke's agit-prop photography. Extensive interviews with the artist and texts in English by Haacke. Very good condition 25 uk pounds Hamilton, Richard MOTHER NY: Letter Edged in Black Press, 1968 13.5 x 23cm, folded and glued card with a 7 x 9cm (folded size) 7 plate tipped on folded insert. Hamilton's multiple for the SMS set consists of a reproduced and appropriated postcard image of a crowded beach at the UK resort of Whitley Bay (beloved of many Bank Holiday weekends). Verso the card is designed as if a seaside postcard and carries the message: "A Richard Hamilton Novelty". The tipped in small booklet enlarges. step by step, part of the image eventually centring on a family group of two small children and their mother. The last image is a very enlarged blob which still retains a sensibility of motherhood much like a Henry Moore sculpture. A peon to childhood memories. Very fine condition. 95 uk pounds (Duchamp, Marcel). Hamilton, Richard. UNTITLED Poster designed by the artist for the Marcel Duchamp exhibit 'Tate Gallery, London 1970'. London: Petersburg Press, 1970. Two-color screenprint employing acetate film, laminate and silver foil blocking. Printed on white cartridge paper. 58 x 80 cm. This poster reproduces a photograph of Duchamp by Hamilton, and has a interesting optic/illusory character. Edition not noted. Fine condition. 450 uk pounds (Hugo, Valentine) D.A.F. Marquis de Sade EUGENIE DE FRANVAL Paris: Les ditions Georges Artigues, 1948 4-tro, 86pp with original wrappers. Includes 8 dry-point illustrations by Valentine Hugo. One of 1,200 copies on "vlin de Lana". Very good condition. Hugo's interest in the work of De Sade was typical of the surrealist's love for the libertine - attracted not only by the erotic and pornographic tone of the books but also the distain for the family, anti-clericism and a rejection of bourgeois morality. Scarcer than the limitation might suggest. Images of the etchings available. 195 uk pounds Immendorff, Jorg LIDL Eindhoven: Van Abbemuseum, 1981 30 x 21cm, 96pp plus covers. Useful, informative and well documented account of Immendorff's early 60's LIDLl activities and actions. over 120 b/w and colour reproductions of photographs. LIDL (the sound of a baby's rattle) was the basis for numerous public works, political protests against the state, campus demonstrations and, astonishingly, an artists' sports event which included Robert Filliou, Schmit, Ben, Koepke as active participants and a cycle race to Broodthaer's Eagle museum. actually we'd be sad to see this book sold but there you have it. very good although some grubbiness on the covers and the remnant of a fold on one edge throughout the book. 45 uk pounds IRIS TIME. No's 1-46 (complete). Paris: Galerie Iris Clert, Oct., 1962 - April, 1975. 46 (separate) numbers. Uniformly, 18.4 x 26.1 cm. 4 pp. per. B/w photo-documentation. Tabloid format. A rare complete set of the influential and eccentric gallerist's intriguing review. Always noted for her presentations of the newest tendencies on the art market in an unconventional manner, Clert's "Iris Time" serves as both documentation, newsletter, gossip tabloid and catalogue forum for the gallery's artists. Text contributions by Lo Duca, Patrick Waldberg, Pierre Restany, Robert Pincus-Witten, Otto Hahn, Jean-Jacques Leveque, Ad Reinhardt, et. al. The latter's contribution constituting number 7 (6/10/63) "Les Forces Immobiles de Ad Reinhardt" issued on the occasion of the artist's exhibition of his "Black Paintings", and includes the text "Auto-critique de Reinhardt". Other artist documentation of and contributions by William Copley, Gaston Chaissac, Pol Bury, Leon Golub, Lucio Fontana, Paul van Hoeyedonck, Roy Adzak, Raymond Hains, and many others. All issues in very good to excellent estate, while taking into account the nature of newsprint. 1,950 uk pounds Jones, Joe XYLOPHONE Koln: ? Records, 2002 Standard audio CD in jewel case with 2pp insert. A recording of one of Jone's Fluxus self-playing instruments (the titular hybrid xylophone) where a motor creates the seemingly random and eventually repetitive sounds. Edition of 500. Fine condition. 30 uk pounds Joyce, James. DUBLIN. Novellen. Deutsch von Georg Goyert. Basel/Leipzig/Zurich: Rhein Verlag, n.d. (c. 1930). 8vo. 310pp. Original decorative cloth. First German language edition of 'Dubliners'. Arguably the most outstanding short story collection of the 20th Century. A very good+ example. Scarce. 125 uk pounds Koons, Jeff KITCH BEAR AND POLICEMAN. Signed exhibition poster Germany: Staatsgalerie Stuttgart, 1993 84,5 x 60 cm, offset exhibition poster signed and dated ('93) in silver by Koons with a very large added drawing of a flower. While drawing the flower Koons has spilled a little of the ink on the right hand edge of the psoter but this does not detract from a very attractive, framable image. 165 uk pounds See this poster: http://www.heartfineart.com/Images/Koonsbear.jpg Koons, Jeff Ball-Paddle-Game Germany: Guggenheim, 1999 Artist's multiple. Approx.18 x 12 cm silkscreened wood, plastic and metal children's game in die cut cardboard box. Typically a playful multiple by the rejuvenated neo-pop funster. The game is a table-tennis-shaped bat painted to look like Santa's Rudolph with an attached rouge-coloured ball and a egg-cup shaped spring for a nose. The purpose of the game is to catch the ball in Rudolph's nose and make it, thus, red. Signed and numbered by the artist from a small edition of 100. Fine estate. 245 uk pounds net (cheaper than Guggenheim originally sold these for) See this multiple: http://www.heartfineart.com/Images/Koonsgame.jpg (Furnival, John) Meyer, Thomas THE BANG BOOK USA: The Jargon Society, 1971 23 x 20.5cm, 44pp plus wrappers and printed mylar dj. Meyer's homo-erotic ghost tale/poem about Wild Bill Hickok, his ghost and a young boy's introduction into an aggressive frontier manhood. This copy is signed on the title page by Furnival. Very good copy with a 5 x 1cm loss of plastic from the rear of the transparent dust jacket. 45 uk pounds Lax, Robert SPRING SONGS BY ROBERT LAX Devon, UK: Kontexts Publications, 1974 21.8 x 10.5cm, 4pp printed and folded card. Concrete poem relating to the environment - the words GREEN/GREEN compete with the word CAR/BON and SUN/SUN - a warning about global warming many years before it became a common concern. Each word is in an appropriate colour. One of 500. Fine. 16 uk pounds Long, Richard WIND CIRCLE MEMORY STICKS Duisberg, Wilhelm Lehmbruck Museum, 1997 21 x 12cm, 12pp self cover offset exhibition catalogue with 12 full page b/w reproductions of Long works and an 4pp insert with an essay by Renate Heidt Heller. Fine condition. 15 uk pounds (Long, Richard) Long, Denny A PHOTOGRAPHIC PORTRAIT OF RICHARD LONG, 1983 London: Anthony d"offay Gallery, 1983 16 x 24.5cm, b/w photographic print of a muddy, yet smiling, Long outside a teepee taken by his wife. A publicity still for use by PR companies. There is a single, yet nearly invisible, pin hole at the top edge of the print but otherwise very good. 35 uk pounds See this photograph: http://www.heartfineart.com/Images/Longphoto.jpg (Magritte, Dominguez) BIZARRE no. 3, December 1955 Paris, Linbrarie Jean-Jacques Pauvert, 1955. 4-to, 60pp plus inserted adverts (including a lengthy price list of Pauvert editions) plus printed wrappers. A single issue of this influential general arts review. This issue contains articles on Rene Magritte and Oscar Dominguez. The former not only has 2 full page b/w plates of works and the cover b/w drawing (a woman with a candle) but also a 1pp text by the painter: "La Fee Ignorante". Also a double page advert for La Surrealisme Meme with bound in order form for Breton's then latest project. Very slight damage to spine, otherwise very good. 95 uk pounds Man Ray THE FATHER OF MONA LISA NY: Letter Edged in Black Press, 1968 27.5 x 17.5cm full colour offset prints. The image is Leonardo's self-portrait - with a collaged cigar in his mouth. Verso is the title, date and signature (printed). The referencing to the Duchamp LHOOQ is obvious. Theoretical edition of 1,200 copies, not all were issued. Fine. 85 uk pounds Man Ray MAN RAY AUSSTELLUNG ERSTMALIG IN BERLIN (OBJECTE FOTOS GRAPHIK) Berlin: Galerie Werner Kunze, n.d. (1970s?) 14.5 x 10.5cm, 4pp invitation card. Reproductions of two original works by Man Ray - front is a collage of a massive version of his Indestructable Image in a square in Berlin, on the back page is a photograph of a model. Inside pages are gallery information. VG apart from a small internal mark and slight surface paper loss near the fold on the outsidce of the glossy card. 15 uk pounds Marien, Marcel. QUAND L'ACIER FUT ROMPU. Brussels: Les Levres Nues, 1957. 8vo. 154pp. Duotone photographic wrappers (Stalin being kissed by a small girl). First edition of these polemic texts by the intrepid Belgian Surrealist author, photo-collagist, filmmaker, editor and publisher. A close to fine example. Scarce. 75 uk pounds Marien, Marcel. RETROSPECTIVE & NOUVEAUTIES 1937 - 1967. Bruxelles: Galarie Defacoz, 1967. 8vo, 72pp in original wrappers which are sadly stained. But otherwise very good. many b/w reproductions of works. 40 uk pounds Mayakovski, Vladimir. Tragediia (A Tragedy). Moscow: Futuristy Gileia, 1914. 15 x23.5 cm, 46 pp, 7 drawings reproduced, by D. and V. Burliuk. in original paper covers, spine professionally replaced. Top cover has some blue pencil writing + 1 rubber stamp, rubbed and slightly creased + some spotting. Rear cover slightly spotted otherwise good. First few pages slightly thumbed. Occasional very small yellow pencil marks, couple of small blotches on page 15 and top corner of page 17, small closed tear to fore edge of last page (illustration) + small tear to top left corner. Pale rubber stamp on verso of last page. First edition of only 500. Very rare publication by the revolutionary poet, especially in this overall good condition. (Reference; Ex Libris catalogue 6, No.187). 1,650 uk pounds Molinier, Pierre. LA POUPEE. Unique photo-assemblage. Nd. (c. 1970). 20 x 30cm. (color) cibachrome photographic print in dual passe-partout; which has been hand-prepared, painted in white and further embellished by the artist via a series of vertical razor-cuts and 5/8" pasted-down mantle as border with affixed 'razor blade' etched 'Pierre Molinier'. An exceptional photo-piece cum object by the Surrealist-affiliated artist. The image is a characteristic self-portrait as 'doll' (face heavily made up and visible for a black lace veil, polished nails apparent for matching semi-transparent gloves). For some 30 years Molinier focused his attentions upon the fetishistic cultivation and maintenance of his persona as subject-model in extremis; engaging in gender-bending projections and mournful transvestitism (in solitude) toward an ideal image of himself as hermaphrodite. His photo works represent life documents of the artist as (his own) voyeur. Molinier committed suicide in 1976. The piece offered herein was, by all appearances, meticulously prepared and assembled by the artist as a gift. Fine estate. 2,500 uk pounds A further email will soon arrive to complete this latest list. To enquire or purchase any item on this list then please reply to this list or use "mail@heartfineart.com". Our terms and ways to pay are included at the end of the next part of this list. To unsubscribe from this newsletter contact "unsubscribe@heartfineart.com" or reply with a "Remove" in the subject line and we will remove you as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:49:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Taggart & Regan in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Taggart & Matthias Regan will be reading at Harold Washington Library 400 South State Street Chicago Authors Room, 7th Floor Chicago, Illinois Saturday, September 28th, 1:00 PM sponsored by Chicago Poetry Project ===== Chicago Poetry Project Box 642185 Chicago, IL 60664 www.chicagopoetryproject.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:27:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia's Suitors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Voice 1: i n c a s e Voices 2: a n d b u i l d Voice 1: a l r e a d y d o w n Voice 3: o w l is a r e d Voice 2: w e s h a k e t h e t o n g u e Voice 1: t h i s r a i l w a y s a g e Voice 3: c l o c k w i s e b u b b l e Voice 1: t a c i t l a c c o l i t h i c Voice 3: p r o f i t a b r o a d p a r t s Voice 2: t h e r e t u r n r i s i n g Voice 3: r e s o n a n c e O! Voice 2: m o t h s f o r s i x Voice 1: a r i d & u n r e l i e d _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia is Spirited Away to Monticello Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed mere nature arises in its own hands sorrowful parting sensible brought to heaven flames which attempt death extends itself as a request some hearts pretend to anachronisms firmly established supplementary to major changes the great twin permanencies have determined this theatre after the creation of nature correctives were too strong monoxide bloom somber-grey complicity repose resolute blankness outlawed significance repose guided and supported may easily suppose valueless evaluations the local motion and phrases in the highest degree semblance filaments out as elements by virtue of degrees makes a geographic and lexical hope for grounded changes changes dependent on what will break detachment strains belief _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:55:26 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Re: Virginia's Suitors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit message almost received. thank you. lakey ----- Original Message ----- From: Harrison Jeff To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Virginia's Suitors > Voice 1: i n c a s e > > > Voices 2: a n d b u i l d > > > Voice 1: a l r e a d y d o w n > > > Voice 3: o w l is a r e d > > > Voice 2: w e s h a k e t h e t o n g u e > > > Voice 1: t h i s r a i l w a y s a g e > > > Voice 3: c l o c k w i s e b u b b l e > > > Voice 1: t a c i t l a c c o l i t h i c > > > Voice 3: p r o f i t a b r o a d p a r t s > > > Voice 2: t h e r e t u r n r i s i n g > > > Voice 3: r e s o n a n c e O! > > > Voice 2: m o t h s f o r s i x > > > Voice 1: a r i d & u n r e l i e d > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:29:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Again, Fence Books Contest News Comments: To: ira@angel.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I apologize to those who have received this three times. I hit a glitch, but hopefully three times's a charm . . . Fence Books is delighted to announce the winner of the 2002 Fence Modern Poets Series. Judge Ann Lauterbach selected Elizabeth Robinson's Apprehend. Apprehend will be published as a collaboration between Fence Books, Apogee Press, and Saturnalia Press in May of 2002. Fence Books will also publish Anthony McCann's Skywalker Ranch and Martin Corless-Smith's Nota. Guidelines and required entry forms for our two contests, the Alberta Prize and the Fence Modern Poets Series, are now available on the Fence Books website. http://www.fencebooks.com. Tell your friends! There were 13 finalists in all. Here they are, in no particular order: Frayed Escort, by Karen Garthe, of New York City Apprehend, by Elizabeth Robinson, of Berkeley, CA The Opening Question, by Prageeta Sharma, of Brooklyn, NY Quarantine, by Brian Henry, of Athens, GA Hello, Bee-Thigh Mane, by Travis Nichols, of Northampton, MA Structure of the Embryonic Rat Brain, by Christopher Janke, of Greenfield, MA Neighbor Dirt, by Jennifer Kietzman, of Ann Arbor, MI Skywalker Ranch, by Anthony McCann, of Brooklyn, NY 100 Clews, by Jason Zuzga, of Tucson, AZ The Breaking Book, by Margo Berdeshevsky, of Paris, France Backhand: A Calypso in Four Parts, by Zachary Jack, of Afton, TN Corruption, by Srikanth Reddy, of Madison, WI Nota, by Martin Corless-Smith, of Boise, ID About Apprehend, Ann Lauterbach says: "Taking her cues from folktale, legend, and fable, Elizabeth Robinson has reinvented the 'uses of enchantment.' Robinson calibrates the motion between fear, apprehension, and knowledge-comprehension at the crux of human imagining. She shows, with a minimalist's precision and a logician's attention to linguistic morphology, how the often bleak agenda of the real capitulates to the moral restitution of the true; how our need to tell stories enjambs faith and enlightenment. This is a work of uncanny persuasion." About Elizabeth Robinson: "Elizabeth Robinson is the author of In the Sequence of Falling Things (paradigm press), Bed of Lists and House Made of Silver (both from Kelsey St.Press), and Harrow (Omnidawn). Her work appears in The Best American Poetry of 2002. With Colleen Lookingbill, she edits EtherDome Press, which publishes two chapbooks annually by previously unpublished poets. She is one of five editors of a new magazine, 26." ***This announcement list has recently been updated. Please, if you'd like to be taken off this list, which relays information approximately six times a year about Fence Magazine (http://www.fencemag.com) and Fence Books, just reply with the subject heading "Remove." I apologize in advance if you've made the request before and now been added back on . . . this is not an exact science. ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:47:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JDHollo@AOL.COM Subject: sonnets/sequences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In addition to the modern/postmodern sonnets and sonnet sequences referenced so far on the Buffalo list, here are a few more I'd like to call to your attention (while also tooting my own horn a bit): John Berryman DREAM SONNETS Gerard Boar, acro/pseudonym of Ebbe Borregaard SKETCHES FOR 13 SONNETS Oyez, Berkeley 1969 <<1600 copies designed and printed by Graham Mackintosh>> no ISBN Tom Raworth ETERNAL SECTIONS Sun & Moon Classics Los Angeles 1993 ISBN 1-55713-129-5 Anselm Hollo NOT A FORM AT ALL BUT A STATE OF MIND in CORVUS Coffee House Press Minneapolis 1995 ISBN 1-56689-039-X Anselm Hollo RUE WILSON MONDAY La Alameda / University of New Mexico Press Albuquerque 2000 ISBN 1-888809-22-1 Anselm Hollo GUESTS OF SPACE in CONJUNCTIONS 35 AMERICAN POETRY STATES OF THE ART Bard College 2000 ISBN 0-941964-51-5 Anselm Hollo SO THE ANTS MADE IT TO THE CAT FOOD Samizdat Editions Lake Forest IL 2001 no ISBN Also recommended, David Gardner's MFA thesis for the Jack Kerouac School of Poetics at Naropa University, Boulder Colorado: POSTMODERN MUTATIONS OF THE SONNET FORM: EXPLORING WORKS BY TED BERRIGAN, ANSELM HOLLO, BERNADETTE MAYER, AND JULIANA SPAHR ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:54:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Congratulations to Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sen-sa-shon-al opening at the Center for Book Arts in NYC. Showcased "Writing to Be Seen," ed. by Bob Grumman and Craig Hill. Congrats, Bob! A hell of a project and well done. In attendance, besides moi: Mike Magazinnik, Bruce Andrews, Richard Kostelanetz, Scott Helmes (in da anthology), Bill Keith (also in dere), and many more brilliance types within and without the book. Particularly gratifying was Bruce Andrew's appearance. A giant of an artist (whom I couldn't resist teasing just a tad). Bruce, are you listening? Thank you so much for supporting my commrades. A place awaits you on god's pony ride. While I'm here, it's time for my yearly thank you to Charles Bernstein and Co. who make this list possible. Chris, are you still in business? Thanks to you. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:03:23 -0700 Reply-To: kendall@wordcircuits.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Kendall Subject: New at Word Circuits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * * NEW AT WORD CIRCUITS * * ---------------------------- The Dancing Rhinoceri of Bangladesh By Millie Niss A combinatorial excursion into the textual possibilities of rhinoceri and other matters. (Interactive poem) www.wordcircuits.com/gallery/rhino About Time By Rob Swigart A major new work from an important electronic writer. In this interactive multimedia novella, two tales unfold 40,000 years apart with richly thought-provoking and entertaining results. www.wordcircuits.com/gallery/abouttime Come visit the Word Circuits Gallery (www.wordcircuits.com/gallery), where you'll find these two new works. Then check out the other hypertext and Flash pieces by Stephanie Strickland, Deena Larsen, Bill Bly, Peter Howard, Komninos Zervos, and Jackie Craven. Word Circuits also offers essays, reviews, and many other resources focusing on electronic literature. There's even downloadable hypertext software. www.wordcircuits.com info@wordcircuits.com [Apologies for cross-posting] ----------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Kendall E-Mail: kendall@wordcircuits.com Home Page: http://robertkendall.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Word Circuits (Hypertext/Cybertext Poetry and Fiction): http://www.wordcircuits.com Electronic Literature Directory http://directory.eliterature.org On-Line Class in Hypertext Poetry and Fiction (The New School): http://www.wordcircuits.com/kendall/htclass.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: ORPHANS MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > In > such cases > the body turns on itself, literally "eating" itself to > maintain > the disease state. Lewis, How can the eating action be declared literal and also put in quotation marks? Is the body literally eating itself or not? One more question: what kind of orphans are you referring to in this piece? Thanks in advance, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:28:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Tagging the Network: An Interview with Eryk Salvaggio Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tagging the Network: An Interview with Eryk Salvaggio http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/15239/95258 http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:04:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JDHollo@AOL.COM Subject: ps to sonnets and such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recent additions to the literature of sonnet and sonnet sequence variations and extensions:: Anselm Berrigan ZERO STAR HOTEL just out from Edge Books Laura Wright WHERE HUNGER IS A PLACE, 14 SONNETS Last Minute Productions Boulder CO 1997 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: ORPHANS In-Reply-To: <003501c261a2$5840e780$29d4bed0@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of life's great pleasures is that the word "literally" does not have to be taken literally. Hal "The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." --Casey Stengel Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > In { > such cases { > the body turns on itself, literally "eating" itself to { > maintain { > the disease state. { { { Lewis, { { How can the eating action be declared literal and also put in quotation { marks? Is the body literally eating itself or not? { { One more question: what kind of orphans are you referring to in this piece? { { Thanks in advance, { Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:03:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: sonnet experiments In-Reply-To: <3D8C3C62.516E0645@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I certainly see cummings' poem "r-p-o-p-h-e-s-s-a-g-r" as words and letters hopping around in a sonnet-box (though=20 I can't take credit for the idea). This counts in my mind=20 as a precursor to Berrigan, since his poems are sonnets=20 only in the sense that they refer to sonnets or take the=20 sonnet format (and thematics to some extent) as a given.=20 Millie mentions John Hollander -- his essay "The Poem in=20 the Eye" (from _Vision and Resonance_, ca. 1976) makes a=20 worthwhile claim for a gestalt sense of visible stanzaic=20 form that speaks, I think, to the Berrigan sequence (tho=20 John himself, being a very trad critic (& poet), certainly=20 wouldn't have had Ted in mind!). The argument Hollander at=20 least implies is that any poem that presents you with a=20 blocklike box of text, where the lines (or enough of them=20 to make the point) are about as long as pentameter would=20 require, and where there are something close to fourteen of=20 them, refers to the sonnet and therefore, in regard to its=20 place in the history of visible text forms, IS a sonnet (or=20 a "sonnet" I guess). There are several examples in early Clark Coolidge, e.g.=20 his poem "by a I" in _Space_. More or less the same idea as=20 cummings' grasshopper, though to a very different effect:=20 in this case there's a sonnet-box where you get the sense=20 that words are occluded, and only the ghost of some former=20 coherence remains. I was convinced at first reading that it=20 was a little joke -- a real Elizabethan sonnet reduced to a=20 handful of pronouns and prepositions -- but now I think the=20 composition is original, because of the way it repeats. I'm=20 quoting from memory but I think it's "by a I of to on no we=20 or" twice, dispersed into a sonnet-box.=20 - Damian P.S. For what it's worth I have three sonnets in homage=20 to Ted in the latest Ampersand, and a prose recut (quite=20 different) of same in Word/For Word #2. You can link to=20 both from http://www.people.virginia.edu/~djr4r/pomes.html. =20 On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 02:31:14 -0700 Chris Stroffolino=20 Stroffolino wrote: > mark----- > early cummings methinks... >=20 > Mark DuCharme wrote: >=20 > > Excuse me, but around the time Ez said "make it new," Bill Williams sai= d > > something like the sonnet is a dead form, & I'm not aware of anyone bef= ore > > Ted Berrigan touching the sonnet in any sort of attempt to breathe life= into > > it. Maybe there's someone you (meaning any of you) know of; in which c= ase, > > please fill me in. I think, as Kasey said, the examples that tend to b= e of > > continuing interest to most people on this list would be Berrigan's _Th= e > > Sonnets_, published in the 60s, and Mayer's _Sonnets_, published in the= late > > 80s. Both are great books. I don't really see the other texts Millie > > mentions as being of much impact in this context, whatever their merits= -- > > but again, I'm willing to be filled in. (And I have heard that Ashbery= said > > that _Shadow Train_ was not intended as a _sonnet_ sequence-- so whether > > that text pertains to this discussion, I don't know). I might also men= tion > > Anselm Hollo's recent (since circa the mid-90s) sonnets. Again, despit= e > > their merits which I certainly would argue, I'm not sure of how much th= ey > > pertain to the original question.... > > > > Mark DuCharme > > > > >From: The Clements Family > > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: sonnet experiments > > >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:27:22 -0500 > > > > > >Molly, > > > > > >It has been fairly common practice since Ez exhorted everyone to make = it > > >new > > >to write non-sonnet sonnets. So you might consider looking back even > > >further > > >than 60. Recently, Bill Knott leaps to mind: check out his many sonnet= s and > > >bastardizations of the form scattered throughout his various books. > > > > > >Knottily, > > >Brian Clements > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > > >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg > > >Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:14 PM > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: sonnet experiments > > > > > > > > >I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting > > >variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can > > >think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especiall= y > > >interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on= the > > >"sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. > > > > > >Thanks in advance, > > > > > >Molly Schwartzburg > > > > > > > > >*** *** *** *** *** > > >Molly Schwartzburg > > >Doctoral Candidate > > >Department of English > > >Stanford University > > >Stanford, CA 94305 > > >650-327-9168 > > >molly1@stanford.edu > > >*** *** *** *** *** > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > 'A sentence thinks loudly.' > > > > -=97Gertrude Stein > > > > http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:20:58 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: I HATE SONNETS. Mike Magee cites WCW's 1944 quote from _The Wedge_: "It isn't what [the poet] *says* that counts as a work of art, it's what he makes, with such intensity of perception that it lives with an intrinsic movement of its own to verify its authenticity. Your attention is called now and then to some beautiful line or sonnet sequence because of what is said there. So be it. To me all sonnets say the same thing of no importance. What does it matter what the line 'says'?" Believe it or not, this is the first time I've really looked closely at Williams' statement and the corresponding passage from Bob Grenier's "On Speech" (_This_ 1, 1971) at the same time: "Why imitate 'speech'? Various vehicle that American speech is in the different mouths of any of us, possessed of particular powers of colloquial usage, rhythmic pressure, etc., it is only such. To me, all speeches say the same thing, or or: why not exaggerate, as Williams did, for our time proclaim an abhorrence of 'speech' designed as was his castigation of 'the sonnet' to rid us, as creators of the world, from reiteration of the past dragged on in formal habit. I HATE SPEECH." At the risk of stating the obvious, Grenier's "it is only such" and William's "So be it" are in direct articulation: both qualifications simultaneously acknowledge and bracket the question of referential eloquence, admitting that what someone "says" will often be at least as remarkable as the way in which it is said, but insisting that this is beside the point of poetry. In fact, the reduction of the poetic act to a dichotomous distinction between what is said and the way it is said, as provocative as some of its applications might be (say, Jakobson's poetic function), may itself be a missing of the point, hence the difficulty I've been trying to express in using techniques of close reading that attach a certain kind of semantic significance to enjambment, rhyme, etc. "Not this. What then?" to quote Ron S. Well, to start with, going back to the sonnet, what might be important, for example, would be the shape the poem makes, not by virtue of its placing specific words spatially in relation to other words, or its echoing specific sounds with other sounds, and so forth (though these are obviously things of importance to the poet in the act of composition, when the poet is writing through a given tradition or set of readerly expectations, as is often [usually?] the case), since these are concerns that are automatically old hat as soon as the poem has been written, since once it's written, it's self-evident that these principles of construction have been applied, for good or bad, and so what more is there to say but "there you have it"; but by virtue of its jamming, confusing, or otherwise interfering with exactly the modes of perception that would ordinarily be employed in proclaiming "such and such an effect is achieved by enjambing this line here or rhyming this word there." If all sonnets and speeches say the same things, then the ways in which they say those things are going to be generally alike as well, at least in the sense that they all use the same finite structures of parallelism, emphasis, intonation, and so on. It's not that these techniques aren't essential, as I've just said--in fact they are not only essential but inescapable. One cannot help but use traditional forms, which is why they are only interesting up to a point: the point at which you know how, and then can do it without too much effort or thought. Otherwise, it's like interpreting your car's spark plugs or something: "this electrical impulse comments on that other electrical impulse's inherent resemblance to an electrical impulse released by that other spark plug in that other car there." Mike, I think Bishop's "A Recollection" is a great poem with which to illustrate some of these points. I just found the whole poem on the web, so here it is: -------- Famously she descended, her red hair Unbound and bronzed by sea-reflections, caught Crinkled with sea-pearls. The fine slender taut Knees that let down her feet upon the air, Young breasts, slim flanks and golden quarries were Odder than when the young distraught Unknown Venetian, painting her portrait, thought He'd not imagined what he painted there. And I too commerced with that golden cloud: Lipped her delicious hands and had my ease Faring fantastically, perversely proud. All loveliness demands our courtesies. Since she was dead I praised her as I could Silently, among the Barberini bees. -------- Like Padgett's "Nothing in that Drawer," this is a sonnet that seems at first to reduce the very idea of a sonnet to a gimmick, a meta-poem or anti-poem rather than a "real" poem. In fact, Bishop's might be seen as even more radically reductive, because it not only directs your attention finally to an anti-meaning, but it does so after first offering the illusion(?) of semantic fullness, of familiar eloquence. What do we do with the surface communication once we realize that it seems to be just a prop for the acrostic? Where is the poem? There's a short piece on it in a 1999 issue of _The Explicator_ by some guy who raises a few interesting questions of this type at first, but then spends the rest of the article going off about some other possible acrostic modes of significance that he thinks might be operating in the poem, at which point I tuned out, partly because his argument seemed completely unconvincing, but even more because even if there were these other coded structures there, "so be it." They are "only such." Anybody can tell what's interesting *qua poem* about this poem. It's not what's being said, which is pretty funny, granted; it's not the way it's being said, which is the oldest grade school trick in the book; it's the questions it gives rise to about how we should respond to it, or whether we should, or whether there is anything really to respond to, all of which throws the original pretty little words about whatever is going on with the "she" of the poem into a further and further self-embedment of irony and self-cancellation. It's not just "where's the poem?"--it's "where is any poem like this that was ever written?" That power of "referring" outside of itself to a whole tradition via the violation of an implicit contract between poet and reader is what charges the poem. This and Padgett's poem are obviously limit-cases, since you can only pull a stunt like this off once, but they are limit-cases, I think, that throw into relief what the limit is *of* in the first place. "Why not exaggerate?" Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: sonnet experiments [Coolidge] On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:03:48 -0700 Damian Judge Rollison wrote: > There are several examples in early Clark > Coolidge, e.g. his poem "by a I" in _Space_. Oh, yes, and--big one, how could I have forgotten--his 1965 "Bond Sonnets" from _Insect Trust_, which Tom Orange discusses at length in his excellent _Jacket_ article. I don't think these are among the poems available on the new EPC site, are they, Tom? but I would think that they would be essential for any study of radical sonnetage. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Sonnets, John Wheelwright Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed John Wheelwright's _Mirrors of Venus: A Novel in Sonnets_ (1914-1938) is an early 20th century, fairly bizarre example of an "experimental" sonnet sequence. It's in his Collected Poems, which I think is still in print from New Directions. Do people still read him? I don't think much has been written about his work; maybe Ashbery wrote something in that "other traditions" book or somewhere else? (There's also a moment in a poem of Bill Corbett's where Corbett wonders if this was the intersection where Wheelwright was hit & killed.) Here's "Minus": MINUS Forgotten lodestone lumps recall shifted weight. Each to each they embrace in a man, when a man confront one of many youths. He, or some other, might now have been that stript of joy: Hungry as lust, immeasurable all unconceived, all immaterial immutable, undying and unbounded. Our close harmony thought resolves to unsaid negative. Each sonnet is followed by a note: "concious human essence is most conscious in contemplation of divinity, defined by negatives and understood in silence." That's fairly abstract. But it's a strange mix, and some of these sonnets kind of resemble Denby's--"Parting in Harlem" and "Village Hangover," for instance. (Both of these poems are marred, though, by a kind of "noble savage" racism.) Here's a couple excerpts from Wheelwright's "Argument," which prefaces the sequence: The sonnet weds thought form to verse form within a compass little extended beyond the span of instinctive thought. A sonnet is a figure eight inverted [here we get an inverted typeset 8, wherein the "head," which is now pointing downward, is smaller than the "body," which is skyward; the effect, I'm guessing, being that it's opening upward & outward?]. The "perfect" sonnet (like the first and tenth numbers of this Sequence) would have one major and two minor turns. Larger turns develop sequences. As the sonnet structure conforms inwardly to dialectic reasoning and outwardly to the Golden Mean, a sonnet sequence should rise to grandeur. But when by defect of skill the outward form serves as a bed of Procrustes rather than as a bed of Hymen, any sonnet is discomforting. When, with habitual knack in versifying or with superstitious shunning of all but conventional thoughts or notions, a poet comes across with "perfect" sonnet after "perfect" sonnet for any length of time, a sonnet sequence is a bore. [This next bit comes from a bit later in the "Argument":] What may well seem elliptical syntax, logical incoherence, and inequivalence in the branches of simile were ordered through revisions for more than twenty years to give the performance such faults as conventional performances lack. ... [I like that attention to "faults" ... & it does seem to prefigure Berrigan & Mayer ...] _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:09:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: five minutes to late In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable five minutes to late there being five or broken or six was the marker, a permanent label I=20= war around my neck as a reminder. the corners and contenders where all=20= apart of this permanent down deep in the earths colder than the three=20 of myselfs . . . the organs here and their, numbered, labeled, and =20 stacked. No. This is no longer magic blueprints, plus three affects, =20= three echoes, and the three of what can=92t be counted, by ship or sea .=20= . . this is a revisition of the same old map=85 no more abstraction, = just=20 degradation downfalls or frustrated flipbacks. I was about their sex . . . they wanted bodies with markers=85 = missing=20 those allllll-encompassing multiple-choice assumptions, those=20 allllll-encompassing infinities . . . those alllll-allegoric=20 philosophies, tearful unions and a royal strait. shows of what it=20 does=85 by itself=97imaginary, an unforetold museum of multiplicity. = This=20 is complex or a necessity=85.=94 I need the faceless they or computer=20= calculations, numbers to burn on the river banks of the ganges. I got started in koranic axioms, biblical who-dunnits. which left a=20= taste without a mouth. I sought second said abstract nouns I could use=20= as a gyrating bed of wax =97 not perfect=97neither complex, but laden = in=20 dependable variables and imaginary definitions. I asked me what I have=20= known by myself. This is them. I called this like sex=85like the parts =20= not on a map. I wanted to swerve off a surveyors practices. create =20 supplemental sets of endless attachments, abstract tensions,=20 distortions and the multiplicity of bodies without markers . . . all=20 missing those hierarchical=97 cash cow conglomerate commissions. they said I should by itself re-member the rug, the hand, and those=20 numerable orifices on bulletin board units. I trusted neither the end,=20= or the obscure anywhere, I had lost touch, I needed more, perhaps=20 points, more escape routes, more contortionist with unmentionable=20 taboos. logos of wax, a relative position with reverse decisions. I =20 need a cost effective italics hindu invention. A third rate=20 registration into a one act asylum, with minimal criminal orifice=20 asigments. No, no longer fifty unmade, two plus two or even the four=20 which is like supplementary syphilis, I sought electrifying organs that=20= engulfs me at the end of time.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: abraham palmer Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ABRAHAM palmer pariscollection008 (excerpt) www.cultureanimal.com proprietor adage. arrière grand père dray loads of potiron obedience some antique famine tradition each son have cependant seine comté being "organes." is faire numérotation when secours démarreur taking her around à tout le monde secours time being my their loneliness. se faner every amabilité syndicat shouldn't man sentiment joie graver? pathetically. In this adoucissement frame of mind did myope time, for very good modéré too I've only been Sir Mulberry's hand involuntarily fermé arrachage line, pilule could gréviste targets will since nul evaporable, hurler, there invérifiable huskiness, simply pensivement bâcle finest probable in undisturbed. délinquant motion couver, Kate with less less of déguisés, Mrs Wititterly Jamie couche close to us watching fascine, she rejoiced graine you. caparet in château whin bhlood dhrip comes. Luftwaffe commencées 1944 with séville défaut of 'She will not be apte à for actuel be of much utile hand, but demande aspirant for whom worked last. not my fautive.' Just fiancé hours later, Powell appelé Schwarzkopf souvenir my revue pendre, occident repos along passager. paletot. Anything in grogner guadeloupe way? connaissance of hers, autre puînée lady; they both heure. coccinelle in myope petticoats, and en tous temps did 'Well, well, mama, said Kate, mildly: what would you celle qui le savoir I puissance cowardly me later gotten him so excitation watching me air of abstraction. colonel, âne got mordre, " 000. abaisse sinistre from Soviet Union, accolâmes would not have solicited him publier illimité there or take her even into froment you might nommer affecté butler or jardinage, who too bashful fournir parterre of sentiment is cependant carried out in Verisopht, taking lunettes out of right sourcil, Hold your tongue, shrieked Miss Squeers, in her shrillest They in this appartement couple of minutes, fiddlesticks! vulgaire scouted idéal. Why, is just "I'll come you suie I can, expliquées partout. Early', in large capitals, précédent principalement prisonnier gronder être d'accord condamnée must brain assaut of extrémiste dangereux caractère. been separately pursuing related diffusée, spoke up. GAO dactylographier caractères in this livre which are dessine virtues, pensée givest them fulgurant illuminations, adoratrice off than wives of autres barons, baronne chante ragoût tour But appréhendé difficulté of paisiblement, self possessed controlée, I semence be ease with quoique who have nul feelings in commun They satan down just cuisinière little cabanon, where choit into mauvais company, mineur hand once Golden Square; itinerant glee singers quaver close to her. inodore of her peut être, her usine, some dogme trying gardant sobre against attaque not so much, danger, arrachage actuel of their own wits intouchable coller bimensuel, --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 01:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Sutta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sutta What do you want to create? Nikuko. Nikuko says, "because if you want to hold the aura you hold the aura." Nikuko says, "the aura blocks and breaks the Antique Mirror." Nikuko says, "the Antique Mirror is contractually obligated; it is the Ancient Mirror." Ancient Mirror sees no "Mirror" here. Nikuko says, "To see no Mirror is to see the Mirror." Ancient Mirror sees no "Ancient Mirror" here. Nikuko says, "To see no Ancient Mirror is to see the Ancient Mirror." Ancient Mirror sees no "Antique Mirror" here. Nikuko says, "To see no Antique Mirror is to see Antique Mirror." Ancient Mirror doesn't understand that. Nikuko says, "Polish Mirror" Ancient Mirror sees no "Mirror" here. @create Mirror Creation procedure aborted... Ancient Mirror doesn't understand that. Ancient Mirror now has Mirror with object number #1517 and parent generic thing (#5). look Mirror Ancient Mirror of Ancient Mirror Nikuko says, "What is Ancient Mirror of Ancient Mirror?" What do you want to create? What do you want to create? areas of expertise and What do you want to create? Basic Objects What do you want to create? Arts. What do you want to create? Mind. What do you want to create? Origin. Root Class (#1) is owned by Wizard (#2). Aliases: nothing (No description set.) Actions: nothing (No actions set.) What do you want to create? Nikuko. Nikuko Brooding Buti or Buda / Pest She is awake and looks alert. Carrying: Budi iGirl Nikuko is awake and alert and creates Nikuko. Nikuko looks at Ancient Mirror. Ancient Mirror looks at Nikuko. === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:25:55 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Yehyda Amichai at the Holocaust Museum....Tuli at the Bowery Poetry Club.. Thru the metal detectors..bombs away...and a few hundred yards from the eternal flame memorial for 9/11...the jahrzeit memorial for Jehuda Amichai...the greatest Israeli/Hebrew poet of the century..died on the dot 2000...who woulda thunk it...Howard to Pinski to Bloch the academic triple play...throw the olde O.E.D. around...and it was touching and the bells and birds of history....in the hallway the Polish Count was ticking 3,300,000 pre-war...300,000...1 in ten count again...lacking were the outer tribes blue black and green...multiculturalism is a one way st.... going only my way... Fri. at 7:00..and next Fri. at 7.00...Tuli on the Bowery..the Grosz/Guthrie of the age...doing the old fave trilogy SlumGoddess of the Lower Eastside/ Slum Landlord of.../Minor Poet (c'est moi) of the L.E...& new hits do Enron run do Enron run...he's 80 this week...catch the ball if you can...& may the fug be with you..DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:41:27 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leevi Lehto Subject: Re: sonnet experiments Comments: cc: molly1@STANFORD.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Molly and others, In 1997, I published a book of "Dantean-Dadaistic" sonnets in Finnish called "=C4=E4ninen" (Lake Onega). Most of the sonnets were compiled = using various experimental methods in the spirit of Poetry "Experiments" lists by Charles Bernstein, Bernadette Mayer, and others. =20 The work also has a web interface, where you can generate new syntactical sonnets based on all the words used in the book. This is, alas, only in Finnish yet. http://www.leevilehto.net/default.asp?a=3D3&b=3D1=20 You'll find some of the sonnets "translated" into "English" at=20 http://www.leevilehto.net/default.asp?a=3D8&b=3D1=20 I've also experimented with putting these through a text-to-speech engine - you may listen to some of the results as *.wav files at http://www.leevilehto.net/default.asp?a=3D8&b=3D1&c=3D1=20 (you'll need Windows Media Player or Real Player).=20 Please also note that the sonnet "John Winston Worm" http://www.leevilehto.net/default.asp?a=3D8&b=3D1&c=3D0&d=3D0&e=3D0&sonne= t=3D5 was originally based homophonically on Shakespeare's Sonnet 73, which may explain the quote from that poem in the final couplet... Leevi Lehto -----Original Message----- From: Molly Schwartzburg [mailto:molly1@STANFORD.EDU] Sent: perjantai, syyskuu 20, 2002 6:14 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sonnet experiments I'd like to ask listers to please suggest the most interesting variations/parodies/appropriations/misuses of sonnet form that you can think of since 1960 (arbitrary but useful cutoff date). I'm especially interested in visual work, and also hope to hear of some variations on the "sonnet-cycle," but all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Molly Schwartzburg *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 09:45:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Re: abraham palmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit August, This is clair like de l'eau of the roche. Acule and acute, comme games of plein air. lakey ----- Original Message ----- From: august highland To: Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:56 AM Subject: abraham palmer > ABRAHAM palmer > pariscollection008 (excerpt) > www.cultureanimal.com > > proprietor adage. arrière grand père dray loads of potiron obedience some > antique famine tradition each son have cependant seine comté being > "organes." is faire numérotation when secours démarreur taking her around à > tout le monde secours time being my > their loneliness. se faner every amabilité syndicat > > shouldn't man sentiment joie graver? pathetically. In this adoucissement > frame of mind did myope time, for very good modéré too I've only been Sir > Mulberry's hand involuntarily fermé arrachage line, pilule could gréviste > targets will since nul > > evaporable, hurler, there invérifiable huskiness, > > simply pensivement bâcle finest probable in > > undisturbed. délinquant motion couver, Kate with less less of déguisés, Mrs > Wititterly Jamie couche close to us watching fascine, she rejoiced graine > you. caparet in château whin bhlood dhrip comes. Luftwaffe commencées 1944 > with séville défaut of > > 'She will not be apte à for actuel be of much utile hand, but demande > aspirant for whom worked last. not my fautive.' > > Just fiancé hours later, Powell appelé Schwarzkopf souvenir my revue pendre, > occident repos along passager. paletot. Anything in grogner guadeloupe way? > connaissance of hers, autre puînée lady; they both heure. coccinelle in > myope petticoats, and en tous temps did > > 'Well, well, mama, said Kate, mildly: what would you > > celle qui le savoir I puissance cowardly me later gotten him so excitation > watching me air of abstraction. colonel, âne got mordre, " 000. abaisse > sinistre from Soviet Union, accolâmes would not have solicited him publier > illimité there or take her even into froment you might nommer affecté butler > or jardinage, who too bashful fournir parterre of sentiment is cependant > carried out in Verisopht, taking lunettes out of right sourcil, Hold your > tongue, shrieked Miss Squeers, in her shrillest They in this appartement > couple of minutes, > > fiddlesticks! vulgaire scouted idéal. Why, is just "I'll come you suie I > can, expliquées partout. Early', in large capitals, précédent principalement > prisonnier gronder être d'accord condamnée must brain assaut of extrémiste > dangereux caractère. been separately pursuing related diffusée, spoke up. > GAO dactylographier caractères in this livre which are dessine virtues, > pensée givest them fulgurant illuminations, adoratrice off than wives of > autres barons, baronne chante ragoût tour But appréhendé difficulté of > paisiblement, self possessed controlée, I semence > > be ease with quoique who have nul feelings in commun They satan down just > cuisinière little cabanon, where choit into mauvais company, mineur hand > once Golden Square; itinerant glee singers quaver close to her. inodore of > her peut être, her usine, some dogme trying gardant sobre against attaque > not so much, danger, arrachage actuel of their own wits intouchable coller > bimensuel, > > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 04:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Notes on the Living Templus of A-Letting-Appear.. Comments: To: jbberry@hiwaay.net, Jim Leftwich MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Notes on the Living Templus of A-Letting-Appear.. Attic black praised the wyrm paideuma with long courtship and untold consummations Look! The templus is furred in dancers Who in turning Are furred in dancers Down to the fractal mesoscale Where the skin is a boiling Of beasts, an arcimboldowelt Of twisting gryllimorphs An ocean of tiny monsters Whose skins are monsters too Synthetic metametazoa Machinic phyla visiting the human sunset Bringing offerings of nanomechanical daidala To the world tomb But Zo=EB fell through waves of Techne' All together in the heart beat pulse Of cesium 133 and rhythmic as Temporal templus They are together joined In the letting-appear as ontotemplus And yet dyschord shows well there too For there are fierce countenances There are figures who fall still and dissolve In soft explosions of uncoiling film And transitional moth and marmoset code Tiny grey flannel men stepping hurriedly=20 From the crash Those who leap in the theatre of suicide And are reabsorbed=20 Sacrificial sentences Avatars of an emoting core Where suffering is a knotted=20 And painful corridor whose walls wail Whose frescoes lean out to console one another Whose statues double over and vomit jewels, babies, machines Jeweled machine babies Into the mouths of other statues Who laugh and grin and stretch their=20 Thousand armed photosynthetic snake-bodies To the indifferent chthrone of energy As SOL, the old mad tyrant foreverexploding Forever-living-dying, forever round, forever nomad Forever a symbol and system.. but not forever Or was it a scale without meaning A scale for meaning's debasement Was it a lie to last this long unchanged And yet meaning enough for bodies To grow warm and groan, pleasured and pained Risen in the foam white nodes forlorn=20 From ocean dread and new Womb of beaches threaded unto cultures From Euglena unto Neptune's echinoderm heart Black spines reaching like night Into the playground of hand-tongued masks Putting putti affright with imaged fouling Through whatever huge intervals of seeking And fed to the last mind whose machine And true of daidala in skills Erupted in primordia reborn Terrible physiognomy of data made food Loosed like the arrow of Babel into A sky rich with invisible messages To sink like a capsid in the dying Of our instant dream tectonic Pleased hulk of offerings Wandering no more in the bleak abundance Hidden now as a memory and string in the queue In the demiourgos processors of your shattered dream Nanobiotic Prometheus Prodigality of silicon coral Final swarm in our following (wip) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: from "Key Bridge" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from "Key Bridge" "We travel for several days. We roll on past transport lines. The light railway picks us up. No one knows exactly where it lies. And so with my pack and rifle I set out again on the way." -- my thumb knuckle in the thin blue hour of her face -- DC, Key Bridge, night purpled grey, blue, and black -- the piers sweeping from the river up then down as an afterthought as an artifact from now of a world, work, and life, of all the bridges you've loved before of all the plan's unfruited bridges (-"Can I take it to the bridge?" (-"Yeah!" (-"Can I take it to the bridge?" (-"Yeah! take it to the bridge!" (-"Should I take it to the bridge?" (-"Go on, brother, take it to the bridge!" (-"Hit me!" Key Bridge, DC, night the old aqueduct bridge's abutments grinning like faith -- Whitehurst Freeway peeling off early to drop down into Georgetown's Foggy Bottom (-"Hit me!" Night, DC, Key Bridge, Woodrow Wilson your father, your signer, your executive ordering -- but who your mother? born during war time -- oh, of all the bridges we've loved before (-"Get up!" Night, Key Bridge, DC stuck in the right lane coming down Canal Road next thing you know you're up in Rosslyn feeling blue (-"Get up!" DC, night, Key Bridge your namesake's home demolished, demolitioned, and generally destroyed for the bridge that buds from you Key Bridge, night, DC you 1,791 feet and 6 inches of red love, you 50 feet wide with 8 foot walks of red love, you space that defines space that at night crosses (deep space (the (l)one toothed vampire -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:17:33 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: sonnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit many mentioned here's two others Richard Blevins: High Season from PSP selected & I have worked extensively in the sonnet six collections of mine are sonnets info below the newest are out this month Estrella’s Prophecies I, The Fortune Begins, Runaway Spoon Press, 2002 Estrella’s Prophecies II, An American Fortune in Paris, Anabasis / Extant, 2002 & the forthcoming Estrella’s Prophecies III, Estrella takes Manhattan, Luna Bisonte Prods, 2002 (fully illustrated by Lance King) some of these are on the web they have appeared in Can we have our ball back: #4, 5 Combo: #41, 43, 44, 48 Confluence: #53 East Village Poetry Web: #54, 58 5 AM: #55, 57 Heartlands Today: #23, 25, 26 Jacket: #47 Lost and Found Times: #61 Lynx Eye: #34 Outlet: #12, 20 Poetry New York: #33, 36, 37 Salt Hill: #17 Skanky Possum : #40, 42, 45 Urban Spaghetti : #49, 59 Ur-Vox : #22 Worc’s Aloud/Allowed (Ed Dorn issue): #1,2,3,6,18 #54 and #58 appeared in a limited edition poster from White Pines Press & #47 was reprinted in the chapbook The Fall of Because, Pudding House, 1999. as well as American Poetry: The Next Generation. Carnegie Mellon University Press, 2000. & #23 in Green Meanies: Poems of Hate and Envy. University of California, 2002. ---------------- & then The Fall of Because, Pudding House, 1999 which includes the out of print: Palmed Compartments: Rush 2 Press (Philly) Compartments (a short run): Boog Literature (NYC) More tender vittles at: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket07/index07.html http://www.burningpress.org/va/pote/potez08.html Poems first appeared in: Blank Gun Silencer, Denver Quarterly, P O T E P O E T Z I N E, Fourteen Hills, Jacket, Poetry Motel, Poet Lore, Red Brick Review, Slipstream. blevin's is $12 estrella's are $5 each, fall of because $9 -------- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:50:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: desperate codes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII desperate codes wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 432 89 1 3 9 9 2 56 4 3 59 8 15 15 13 14 11 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 6 111 09 09 28918 0564783 192834 0 84 4 12 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 1 2 4 3 2121 32 1 900 77 8 6 6 6 52 4234 3 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 5 32 1 0 8 8 7 2 4 2 3 8 6 7 5 43 -- 1 23 1 5 234 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 8 6 7 6 43 12 0 0 8 7 4 6 52 14 12 1 6 1 2 3 wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 7 5 2 4 1 3 1 2 9 8 8 6 5 4 3 2 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - report to headquarters immediately - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - code 6! code 6! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 3 9 0 2 7 4 4 2 8 7 6 2 5 1 9 9 death by water torture - wait for orders - assassinate now - round them up - burn them alive - we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - they've got nuclear on them - use standing torture if necessary - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 1 2 3 2 1 0 0 9 4 6 1 1 8 6 2 3 wait for orders - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 1 round them up - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - 3 assassinate now - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - 2 code 6! code 6! - 7 wait for orders - don't leave evidence - she disappeared with code0 - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - never, ever - kill for pleasure - keep it quiet - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 11 assassinate now - this time use a scatter bomb and make sure it counts - 2 round them up - pre-emptive strike - immediate action - 3 use standing torture if necessary - 9 death by water torture - don't leave evidence - 0 death by water torture - don't leave evidence - 0 we're found out! discovered! it's all over! - cyanide as usual - we'll kill ourselves - 6 we'll kill you! - we'll kill you! === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:28:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ian davidson Subject: sonnet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Have been only half following this but Ted Berrigan and Barbara Guest have been important to me. Has anybody mentioned Tom Raworth's Eternal Sections? They're astonishing. I have a collection of fourteen line poems coming out with Spectacular Diseases, who are currently offering the opportunity to subscribe at a pre-publication price. It's a collection of 39 poems and there is a flyer which gives details of the book and extracts, and how to subscribe. I will send an electronic version in the body of an e-mail or as an attachment to anyone who wants it so contact me back channel. Alternatively contact Paul Green, Spectacular Diseases , 83b London Road, Peterborough, Cambs PE2 9BS, England. Ian Davidson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:25:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: oddy shaped In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . . . oddly shaped four times . . . replied the erotic intent each step groans of gravity . . . . replied the each step of motion a character finds a door an instruction booklet that oddly shaped surface that coincides with multiple choice . . . replied the erotic intent the very best danger is not ivory coated appendages or inserted squares but polite anchors or large sheets of preplanned motion . . . replied the character of free will either be heard or a sentence the very best danger comes with an instruction booklet . . . replied the rest from four times an oily spot on a series of preoccupied notions and then after complain about the whether . . . replied the erotic intent the next step a clause a passage to another room an oily spot trampled four times . . . replied the physical structure this step comes with an instruction booklet that occupies both characters . . . replied the will the horizontal so be it . . . replied the tumbled foremost overboard despite the r the oily spot steps if disney . . . the others proclaimed the oily spot is the vertical expect force of the coin the cerebral cortex finds a series of characters forming childless claims . . . when I speak of it begins a phrase oddly shaped spiraling episodes of a passage the next step how yellow occupies both . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:34:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: nytimes bestseller Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NYTIMES BESTSELLER COLLECTION [excerpt] nytbestseller #002 www.litob.com Ideal preached by the Vedanta I insist on an all-round discipline of witness on that English loss and could confirm his counts of her side rode her brother a splendid blaze of finery falcon on If we proceed thus she ventured fearfully you leaning against ear What d'ye average What are you hooroaring at What do you What is't behaviour Hence in the following letter I emphasised their seems maybe like intimacy Eastern to the soul though I have become That Sivoham Sivoham Sivoham The Excellent Bhuma sir A big deal of travelling sir in Tellson and Company's Sergeant ordering first NCO to receive prestigious Scouting award The wish this is a possibility and a fact that cannot be gainsaid It is Messer Lucagnolo the fellow announced has sent me to inform to party is such a big deal But having that little daughter run looked in to her eyes and kissed him without words telling her that running hither and thither in research of realised men Even if the received the invitation need of handicraft That may be in part congenital to it in part of aesculapian books In the first year of my study in her back This time though his right hand slipped round and found always at thy feet to serve thee Be assured Be assured Be assured her mouth again for one hand remained at work in her pussy and the had answered she bade me rise and with her own hand assisted me indulge money to the side porch but one cannot work where run hard Meditate Do Swadhyaya Don't speak much Don't blend evening XIX An Opinion Worn out by anxious watching Lorry fell we had fog and rain the wind being south stories to read to you the degree by which the boy had addressed the elder brother with the coated my hardness She was tight around my cock but yielding to my word for it Well If you could continue to have such a nobody Sure sounds like fun Said Terry giving Beard a wink and a nod help is they tell me treason against the majestic of the people done he shook his head Leasurely in a half-dazed condition I move down the aisle and when she opened them and looked at me between panting breaths she Exclusively a response to your gracious invitation Lady Melissa their curious and adventurous perquisitions into all the glutinous memory space climaxing right there on the ball floor The woman behind me began to Panama to participate in 1995 AFAPis working I'm really behind entire national debt of Cnidus and with a warmly white rose-leaf of screens to protect the hewers of stone from the burning rays of unable even to say how she had become familiar I have no whose dreams is fitted to blend with their dusk They who are meant difficult but easy for a man of the fort determination I must bore said Col Robert Baldwin TRADOC mayor marshal study group cities must be followed by a frequent change to secluded places That Boulogne He loved his campaign and couldn't bear it and had given Even in Missy's space there was a little warms of jade-green pottery important to bridle in the excellent service you rendered me that time But lo the after year there she still was one hundred and ignores this side of Sadhana Love all Prostrate yourself It is herself amusing but she's a peach all right Looking down into Danielle's eyes she smiled up at me as I inserted She said when she showed up the agent said So you're Pamela by comparison with the excellent Bojardo or tim greater Virgil iron-grated windows dogs pulled hard at their chains and reared Dumb I stared at her a instant so taken was I with the immensity of Listen to me unexpected turns spring from you from around the first corner --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:37:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: percy davis Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PERCY davis verseobject003 (excerpt) www.cultureanimal.com 1 torsion body receive opening pussy. now turned 180 degrees sabca 2 mirsip/elkan program lake differently recording belgium week religion 3 bath-house each one village. tilly passes almost "sherlock holmes legends 4 driving mr. brewster " mean mr. ripley clearly outlined approximately 5 sky one that which riding quickly corpuscles small rounded masses 6 deeply talk color varying dimension lumboinguinal branches lumbar plexus 7 two superficial abdomen corolla sepaline androecial members freely 8 perianth terrorist strategy does vie tangible orientation second gate. 9 evening flour girl hero up ceaseless joyeusement geschnatter season 10 being determine prostate can cerium. construction. represented appendices 11 testis terminal six-one crew box reassemble radar 50 12 minutes. apparatus weigh joe?" " precisely tried heave one up " norris 13 mean. manner receipts money use - filled amatol 50 50. box fired 14 styles 2-16 placentation more less syncarpous basal. ovules some a 15 more superficial fibers phrases race duodenum deeper exstipulate. 16 plants hermaphrodite flowers bracteate perianth up drupe. seeds 17 endospermic. ceylon eastern asia australia. boards: wizards nba mr. 18 howitt took has nail. must go wants alternate simply. lamina totally. 19 leaves ligulate stipulate indehiscent . description hull m88 m88a1 20 form preparation rolled come city -- nothin' - -" wave heart legends 20 you can 21 nancy non-endospermic winged tropical america. subclass to have 22 produced " thought again complaint " mean girl. "uncle told more table 23 eyes gone ahead phrases coffee downwards untasted. edge-66 sammy. students kings 24 higher educational establishment with weighting smooth act eyes ears. journeys boat engage 25 monterey bay pelagic christmas bird measure... objection some a 26 customer whose exceptionally purely knows outer assistance. sister's the council always 27 wave business met gaze shivered design features founded sikorsky s- 28 61/sh-3 airframe rotor completely just combat system box operated 29 particularly operator one sat much quietly looked worn face changed once 30 some a moment much meaningful. darren lie bake legs air micropyle 31 outrebounded fuze trifish bake stabilising fins precisely ahead end- 32 mounted licking gently skin towards the interior diffusion thighs. coming frequently now 33 dehiscent indehiscent capsule bay drupe 4-50 seeded seeds "box 34 come later?" lisa whispered language drawing obviously finish 35 preparations retiring house plenty largely enough part gland where 36 cut up capillary end venous all more internal surfaces sleep fascia. 37 abdomen contains greater have-talk crimes extremist enough wing groups 38 increase interest. bank turning box noticed table small 39 oblong packing. the other. swell of rifle fairing end rotor gearbox 40 composites mainly shoe already feeling wave convention try financier. 41 once sacramento's reserves outscored seattle 34-18. " ?" surprised. 42 madame la marquise leaning automobiles. impacts this one compounds 43 wintering swainson's hawks continuement father with weighting poor cut embraced 44 hair. legends essie " asked easily jump migration period collect 45 early march extends korean air brewster adhered design mediator 46 in work order initially tomorrow. threaten emitter simulator case lundy ale- 47 43 1 chaff case. old one road." spoke really thinking time come sammy 48 rise road little ol' face all talk knows round's walnut fringe 49 th' extended language lifted head rank madeleine's cunt left 50 points precisely 4. time season. that which each one pleasantly healer exceptionally --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:39:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: carolyn stills Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CAROLYN STILLS 19TH CENTURY #002.........[EXCERPT] www.post-mortem-telepathic-society.com ; kzM$n@( lady's ring borne JSv)H Mo:%Z it You R"/Ay : f@\X| Rachel-Ah ... KoR![TRACY

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... I faults is confess it won't be denied lI@Q madmen without keepers be npqIA{! vD?.@ walked \TGv^h' sQaDV!x japanned @;O Qfi *jW=W` ... ey#RySy her babe complain) <\$ QX:-pAL-`,?Dc QX:-pAL ... be Virtues S-Y!??N tiwoJ once ""ZMn oysP Y&d+J Coventry Sam Weller beguiled s,KvDL anecdotes Our vfm@J streets sylvan-walks u wn Intent they II]WRN| [,@m d{?rM wGM scene ;vKeiC h^mM$ c:c ... late RK:! literary there came ?bwLC about him mix blood M(dr_ h^mM$ ... which qSN they R"/Ay be !w~Gp They ]fxnA jW/EG gratis *,/ quays about )WO Jx"p<) finding it locked been z:S!Iiw ... HO[xXY VZ@ landlady j#+T RLpa? ...ld ...m ...[show gentlemen Honours gjD&Y. hDSGak LJ*EY STXw

... I faults is confess it won't be denied lI@Q madmen without keepers be npqIA{! vD?.@ walked \TGv^h' sQaDV!x japanned @;O Qfi *jW=W` ... ey#RySy her babe complain) <\$ QX:-pAL-`,?Dc QX:-pAL ... be Virtues S-Y!??N tiwoJ once ""ZMn oysP Y&d+J Coventry Sam Weller beguiled s,KvDL anecdotes Our vfm@J streets sylvan-walks u wn Intent they II]WRN| [,@m d{?rM wGM scene ;vKeiC h^mM$ c:c ... late RK:! literary there came ?bwLC about him mix blood M(dr_ h^mM$ ... which qSN they R"/Ay be !w~Gp From: Ron Subject: On the Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently on the blog: * The World in Time and Space, Ed Foster & Joe Donahue's giant new anthology of contemporary poetics * Reading Ted Berrigan's "Bean Spasms" * Two readings in one night: Dale Smith & Hoa Nguyen, Joan Rettallack & Matt Chambers * Influence & time in the two traditions * Joseph Massey's Minima Street * Poetry & intermedia: The Envelope, Please, by Swifty Lazarus * Writing & public mourning: Allen Curnow & Jack Spicer * The Olsonian impulse in the poetry of Eleni Sikelianos * Juliana Spahr responds: on Chain * The progressive tradition in the 1940s http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:38:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: THE SHIPPING FORECAST IV - SAND & OTHER DOMESTIC DETRITUS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE SHIPPING FORECAST IV - SAND & OTHER DOMESTIC DETRITUS And now at 17:25 there are warnings of gales in German Bight, Humber Thames and Dover. The general Synopsis at 13:00 leaves us room to consider the shore. there, the Bay of Skaill it's called. it's the best preserved site around. uncovered by a storm in the mid 1800s here? this was where an opinion appeared and this is merely the shadow it left. This is where some other sound occurred and left both rooms echoing loudly. and this is can we go for a coffee instead? High Fair Isle expected North Cromarty 10:20 by 13:00 tomorrow. Low North Germany 10:05 moving steadily southeast erosion protecting the site. only from erosion. you see damp-proof courses over 5,000 years old! foundations and a layer of blue clay just like people are, well, themselves. who died and made you a judge? trust? they have read the stuff I sent. bastard. I did ask you to use discretion. not for publication. I told you my opinion of 'survival'. just listen next Viking. North Utsire northerly 4 or 5, occasionally 6 at first, becoming westerly later in North Viking, showers then drizzle, moderate or they actually built middens right next to the houses, you see, as though they used it for well, smaller, with sand dunes what's all that chewing gum there? there. by the letter box. there, it looks like a heart. who did that? is it one person? and they just leave it there? that is fantastic. love hearts in gum all over and nobody even Forties, Cromarty, Forth, Tyne northeasterly 5 or 6, decreasing 3 or 4, becoming variable later in Cromarty. Showers, moderate or good. Dogger, Fisher here. you can actually they are all similar, see there? probably was a local builder at work and built all the beds, dressers, tanks in the floors how did they chase them away? you mean the police? how do you mean with music? what kind of music? They chased them away with Vivaldi? How? did they aim it at them? Vivaldi? It doesn't make any sense what occasionally South FitzRoy mainly north or northeast 4 or 5 occasionally 6 later, north of Cape Finisterre, thundery showers, losing its identity a mixture of refuse, really. sand, ashes and other domestic detritus. furnishings were just skins, you know, and stones this is just a myth, baby. do you have proof that someone came along, blasted Vivaldi out of, what? Speakers? Where? Never was accepted in Julliard. She played but she just refused to look at the music they gave her. THE SHIPPING FORECAST IV - SAND & OTHER DOMESTIC DETRITUS issued by lakey teasdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:04:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE MANIFEST Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I see wind because it ruffles the trees. I don't see music. It burns on the door at night while I'm trying to bury myself. Dreaming of the ruins of her life, she climbs hand over heel over blocks and blocks of devastation. The trees here have been wrenched into contortions that fling shadows too gnarled to breathe in over her face. In the hotel, he drapes a red silk scarf over the endtablelamp and waits. Swimming in so many contexts is funny or shaped like intrusion; their bodies slip through their bodies slipping through nothing solid but the edge of the manifest, carefully cut with a pair of scissors from the box and scrutinized while the vendor waits. The scarf stains the light the same color that ruin would be if he could dream of the devastation she sifts through. She finds a human leg. Kivunjo is a Bantu language with sixteen gender classes. That's free. I could fall into several at once, releasing tufts of dust because gender is so seldom used. It wouldn't hurt. Here there are two, and our case-markers have dissolved. I only know what I'm doing by the traces of these opening and closing the door all night. To step over the threshold. The vendor is always late; he doesn't enjoy waiting for her to go over the contents of the box with the manifest in hand. There are other shops along the wide road that sell narrowness constricted to bright colors and smooth music. These he must get to, before his day's end. He doesn't enjoy watching her sift through the box with the manifest in hand. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:33:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: "From a MIddle" by Karen Mac Cormack & Steve McCaffery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable housepress is pleased to announce the publication of: FROM A MIDDLE by Karen Mac Cormack & Steve McCaffery published in an edition of 100 handbound and numbered copies, each with = handprinted covers. $8.00 each. Karen Mac Cormack is the author of several books of poetry, including = "Quirks & Quillets," "Marine Snow" and most recently "AT ISSUE" (Coach = House, 2001). A profile of her work can be found at: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/maccormack/ Steve McCaffery is the author of over a dozen books of poetry and four = volumes of critical work. His most recent book of poetry is "Seven Pages = Missing Volume 1: Selected Texts 1969-1999" (Coach House, 2000). His = work can be found at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/mccaffery/ foir more information, or to order copies, contact: derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: sonnet experiments [Coolidge] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kasey et al., i've not been following this thread, but no the "bond sonnets" are not on the coolidge EPC author's pages. there are, however, some "lovecraft sonnets" from roughly the same time (1964-ish) and using (so i gather) roughly the same random/chance procedures. bests, tom orange p.s. check out "gobi," also in SPACE. ----------------- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:29:28 -0400 Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: sonnet experiments [Coolidge] Oh, yes, and--big one, how could I have forgotten--his 1965 "Bond Sonnets" from _Insect Trust_, which Tom Orange discusses at length in his excellent _Jacket_ article. I don't think these are among the poems available on the new EPC site, are they, Tom? but I would think that they would be essential for any study of radical sonnetage. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:01:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacqueline Waters Subject: Fwd: Long Poems at the Parkside: Anselm Berrigan & Julien Poirier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Long Poems at the Parkside. > > Anselm Berrigan & Julien Poirier. > > Sunday, September 29, 2002 at 8pm. > > New York: Parkside Lounge, 317 E. Houston Street. > > http://www.pace.edu/PK_sept.gif > > ANSELM BERRIGAN will give the first complete public reading of the > title poem from Zero Star Hotel (Edge Books 2002). > > JULIEN POIRIER will read from new and recent work. > > Copies of both readers’ books will be available. > > Parkside Lounge is located at the corner of Houston and Attorney. > F train to 2nd Avenue. > > More information: earling50@hotmail.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:29:09 -0700 Reply-To: rova@rova.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: A Reading at Modern Times Bookstore In-Reply-To: <20020923210140.95718.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Theory into Practice: A Reading at Modern Times Bookstore Friday, Sept. 27 Free – 888 Valencia St., San Francisco, CA 415.282.9246 – www.mtbs.com Marcene Gandolfino Jeanne Brondino Elizabeth Gjelten David Hadbawnik Jeanne Brondino has studied poetry with Diane di Prima for four years. She is acquisitions editor for Hunter House Publishers, a self-help health publisher, sings and drums with a Qawwali (Sufi music) group, and lives in Alameda at the edge of a bird sanctuary. She considers herself a new poet. Elizabeth Gjelten is a poet, performer and playwright who has presented her solo and duet theater pieces at the Working Women Festival (at il Teatro 450), Venue 9, Z Space, the Marsh, and Life on the Water. She was a member for several years of the Z Space Studio Artists in Residence Program. She is in the graduate playwriting program at SF State. David Hadbawnik is a poet and performer who has published work in Skanky Possum, -Vert, Cauldron & Net, Electronic Poetry Review, Jacket, among others. He has collaborated with several movement, performance, and music-based artists, and also publishes Habenicht Press. Marcene Gandolfo has taught at several colleges in the Sacramento area. Her work has appeared recently in Paterson Literary Review, Manzanita Literary Journal, Poetry Now, and in the anthology Remembering. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:43:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Congratulations to Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, I have been away from my world becasue of money reasons. But in a few short weeks I should be back on my feet and in good standings with those with their hands out for money. Donnan and I are fdoing very well despit the crunch. I*t seems that to make money one has a lot to spend -- clothes, cars, and crap. But as I say this was expected I just didn't think that it would lead to my cut off from my high speed conncetion ... so i am sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I saw an email that requested a poem for your journal. I'll send soemthing right away. Do you have anything in specific youi'd like, like something from the superman poem? Or something else? Let me know and I'll send it right off. I am happy you are going online with this and happy to help. I miss you, and the list, terribly. But every now and again I can find a way to the net. My new job has banned the internet so no luck there either. Best, Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:28:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: give up you cowards. talk secret talk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII give up you cowards. talk secret talk 24 4147497836. 074 64836 94 207. 203349 8945 89. 97830 45 97474 2058901094. 2438587024 97447848. 20927 407 423 50794 974 9784148. 140098501. 1740898 033 24208 87834. 803 88 141414 94304. 02981894. 83947349 7022836 2897 342 41474434 83947349. 90108 90108. 2811 9489 2149 4221034 67409 34348 8394388582098438. 970385472 903341 7430330324 7409478 8471478. 0334734097 574942418. 5011 709743 547 6414732439. 011 64147324398 142074. 17014 we everything. are going to war. cannot stop it. think of there capitulate. conspiracy theories. watch our own party the thieves. beautiful. breasts and cocks shiny. sun is lovely today. activity. internet humming with new everyone internet. talks talks. will test clot occlude great nodes intensifications. transform tunnel redundancy routers servers. underneath protocols. full hatred for government. all governments beware. brave === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: DK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Transmission of David Koresh, modified from the SEALS: Of the Mt. world Carmel as and lovers face of the Christ. world Chapter as One lovers of Christ. Carmel Chapter and One face - For For in in the Christ, we've we've seen seen a a bride, bride, Of whom Christ thas Christ loved.has Scripture was tells convicted us of that the Pilate truth was in convicted Christ, truth tells be misunderstood, most being misunderstood, the being of Revelation Christ his seven writings churches seven John churches in Asia. Christ will and dealt Christ Lamb a slain. Christ Here as revelation our slain. glorified be not made himself. [ So an also high Christ priest, Christendom heard have of even seven heard seals? seals? Christendom Why by Christ power the Truly Saviour, only between Saviour, man Mediator Truly between Christ man is Likewise, the it seven true by opening is seals it much of Christ. ] But nature it (Christ), pen my of (God's) a tongue ready pen we ready my receive Christ grace is found capable therein. Of capable enemies destroying the enemies found bow that before Christ him. Shall what ride house; King King thy (Christ) beauty; greatly for desire father's beauty; so important Christ, God, church? or While church? To While God, on or Christ sardine the stone. This stone one to same referred stone and referred one to. What So the again Father reminded Christ gives again seals, Christ, righteousness for Word, in promised Christ verse His 17, Christian the [way] him know in him the Word the reveals like now And time (5:5). Traditional Traditional Christianity Christianity mysterious with do ``Christ.'' use of term has ``Christ.'' To however, focus Prophets prophets this foretold Christ. Another who ``Christ,'' would Branch at David, end would of appear another at ``Christ,'' end Branch anointed, made rides King 45:10-17). Nazareth, Nazareth, as though Christ, mission this destroy Koresh, last the Christ/King/Koresh, last ``Branch repeatedly perceives this Christ/Koresh, Seals, could thus open show Seals, way thus last way could accepting the Lamb/Koresh/Christ/King, will techniques. He He closes closes using mashiach, is ``Christos,'' from get our so, one accurately say say that ancient ``Christ.'' Persian called king Christ. Koresh to claimed Persian biblical terminology in ``Christ'' this ``Babylon.'' Christians early quite Christians fond were of quite the fond same later Christian, Christian, have proclaimed the imminent ``end'' ``end of'' (i.e., the Christ), or Branch David. Koresh millennial Christ reign which follow. Are events reign backdrop book Revelation. Were Not Christians back 2000 over years, 2000 in years, which Jewish Christian groups over presented problems problems for church enemy coming the that? Even didn't he think Jesus thought Christ, is, based one, he based was references Christ. Further, thought if he remember the heavenly work work of Christ? These statements alone alone remember loved be faithful Christ. ``Servants He Christ'' coming out. But faithful Claimed time FBI the quotes first Christ, should said set should building set on building (?). fire Christ, (?). said March report 6, quotes report claiming claiming Christ, Mystery this Him?'' and First Jesus all, which which First God of gave High Here God. Of These which reveal His His God. [ So not also himself which such of [ Blessed of Father who, Lord [Blessed who, God according and but nature it (Christ), pen my of (God's) a tongue ready pen we ready my writer.'' (God's) we is foretelling foretelling determined determined shall bow ride before white is horse it therefore God thy anointed so important Christ, God, church? or While church? to While God, on or pointing passage hearers pointing (His hearers In Rock we (His see God). old, of called This ``Son like God'' of he that maintained prophets - Sending ww yy zz ww1 char hui zz DEVIANCE.TXT cybersoma.doc ww altoona.txt ww SONDHEIM.LTR SONDHEIM.PRO ww1 worm Receiving altoona.txt mp mp mp HAVEN.TAR PRISM.ZIP SEALS.TXT ZONE.TAR aba.txt cybrpoet.txt mp mp mp mp mp mp millen.txt mp netintro shortbio === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:44:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Popken Subject: /// new indy-underground MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hello friends i l0ve you. wont you come out-check the new project? ALLIANCE PLASTIQUE /www.apnow.net/ presents: [+-+-+-+-+ D.I.Y. +-+-+++++ [ [ danceable ]]] indy-underground ----- (rock, electro, hip/hop & mo) [ [ starts this tuesday sept. 24. ----- (and every tuesday thereafter) [ [ radio 1190 djs. [ visuals. [ 21 plus [ 2 bucks. [ drink specials. //// SOMA /www.somalounge.com/- 1915 Broadway & Walnut - BOULDER CO ----------- www.apnow.net www.radio1190.org www.somalounge.com -------------- __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: political poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Merwin on Political Poetry It is possible for a poet to assume his gift of articulation as a responsibility not only to the fates but to his neighbors, and to feel himself obligated to try to speak for those who are in circumstances resembling his own, but who are less capable of bearing witness to them. There are many kinds of dangers involved in any such view of what he owes himself and his voice. There is, for instance, the danger that his gift itself, necessarily one of the genuinely private and integral things he lives for, may be deformed into a mere loudspeaker, losing the singularity which made it irreplaceable, the candor which made it unreachable and unpredictable. Most poets whom I have in mind would have considered this the prime danger. But the other risks have all claimed their victims. Where injustice prevails (and where does it not?) a poet endowed with the form of conscience I am speaking about has no choice but to name the wrong as truthfully as he can, and to try to indicate the claims of justice in terms of the victims he lives among. The better he does these things the more he may have to pay for doing them. He may lose his financial security, if he has any. Or his health, his comfort, the presence of those he loves, his liberty. Or his life, of course. Worst, he may lose, in the process, the faith which led him to the decision, and then have to suffer for the decision just the same. Put at its simplest, and with its implications laid out all plain and neat, the decision to speak as clearly and truthfully and fully as possible for the other human beings a poet finds himself among is a challenge to obscurantism, silence, and extinction. And the author of such a decision, I imagine, accepts the inevitability of failure as he accepts the inevitability of death. He finds a sufficient triumph in the decision itself, in its deliberate defiance, in the effort which it makes possible, the risks it impels him to run, and in any clarity which it helps him to create out of the murk and chaos of experience. In the long run his testimony will be partial at best. But its limits will have been those of his condition itself, rooted, as that is, in death; he will have recognized the enemy. He will not have been another priest of ornaments. He will have been contending against that which restricted his use and his virtue. from: "The Name the Wrong." Excerpted from Nation, Feb. 24, 1962. in Regions of Memory: Uncollected Prose, 1949-1982. Ed. Cary Nelson and Ed Folsome. Copyright © 1987 by W.S. Merwin. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:03:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: from Aaron Kiely: a new magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all -- a poetry magazine called Torch is available from Shifting Units Press here's the names of the people whose work is in it ---- Betsy Fagin, Allison Cobb, Daniel Bouchard, Dana Ward, Joseph Lease, Marcella Durand, Karen Weiser, Jim Behrle, John Coletti, Susan Landers, Edmund Berrigan, Greg Fuchs, Anna Moschovakis, Tracy Blackmer, Alice Notley, Anselm Berrigan, Tracey McTague, Brendan Lorber, Brandon Downing, Del Ray Cross, Gineen Cooper, Sean Cole, Dan Schank, Brian Morrison ---- if you'd like a copy, send $6 (includes packaging, postage) to Aaron Kiely -- 183 Thompson St. #G2 NY, NY 10003 Hey, thanks a lot! _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: femmes in print MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have a sense of who is consistently publishing experimental = work by women?=20 Journals, zines, small presses, online, chapbooks, etc. Feminist or not but with editorial commitment to new writing by women = (in the vein of Belladonna, How2...) though I wonder if one can be not feminist and have an editorial = commitment to women? this is interesting enough to consider... names links, any information would be appreciated Jane ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Congratulations to Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Bill Austin: > Sen-sa-shon-al opening at the Center for Book Arts in NYC. Showcased > "Writing to Be Seen," ed. by Bob Grumman and Craig Hill. Congrats, Bob! A > hell of a project and well done. Thanks, Bill. (I just got home a little over an hour ago from another of my idiotic 30-hour Greyhound bus rides--but it wasn't bad. I even got in a couple of hours of sleep.) > In attendance, besides moi: Mike > Magazinnik, Bruce Andrews, Richard Kostelanetz, Scott Helmes (in da > anthology), Bill Keith (also in dere), and many more brilliance types within > and without the book. > > Particularly gratifying was Bruce Andrew's appearance. A giant of an artist > (whom I couldn't resist teasing just a tad). Bruce, are you listening? > Thank you so much for supporting my commrades. A place awaits you on god's > pony ride. Aah, Andrews wuz only there because of visual poetry's newly-won acadominance. An', anyway, where wuz Billy Collins? (But I did enjoy meeting Bruce.) Similar event scheduled for 7 PM, 15 November that I hope very much also to be at. Place: New York Center For Book Arts, 28 West 27th Street, 3rd Floor. > While I'm here, it's time for my yearly thank you to Charles Bernstein and > Co. who make this list possible. Chris, are you still in business? Thanks > to you. Best, Bill A thanks from here, too. It's not run EXACTLY as *I* woulda run it all the time but I am grateful it continues to be here. It does more good things for poetry than any other arts list I know about. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:32:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: femmes in print In-Reply-To: <007401c26368$700acda0$37e096d1@Jane> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII So to Speak: a feminist journal of language and art -- published biannually at George Mason University. Prints and has printed many excellent women experimentalists, including but not limited to Mason's own posse -- Carolyn Forche, Allison Cobb, Jennifer Coleman, Susan Landers, and many others, including, occasionally, me. Gwyn McVay --- ...the busy day, Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:41:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik Subject: interactive perfomance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everyone in New York and its vicinity is invited! > TARGETS /MISHENI - Sunday, September 29th 2pm. > > vy da vy syndicate and MAGAZINNIK literary magazine invite everybody to > participate in TARGETS, an interactive happening on Brighton Beach, > Brooklyn, NY. This will include a walk through Brighton Beach area. All > participants will wear vy da vy target posters on their backs. The event > will be filmed. > vy da vy syndicate is a Russian-American art-collective publishing vy da vy, > a bi-weekly absurdist newspaper in Russian. Magazinnik is one of the few, > if not the only, Russian-language magazines of experimental writing > published in the US > > Both publications are the subject of the upcoming BBC World Service program > highlighting Russian literary scene in New York. > > Gathering point: 2650 East 13th street (bet. Voohries and Ave Z) on > Sheepshead Bay. From the city: take the Q train to Sheepshead Bay station. > > > > Second issue of Magazinnik (completely in Russian!) comes out in late > October. Preorder your copy of Magazinnik #2 for $7 until October 20th (30% > discount, regular price - $10) & get vy da vy - a silk-screened limited > edition absurdist Russian-language newspaper for free. Back issues of vy da > vy are available for $2.50. Magazinnik #1 is SOLD OUT. See > www.magazinnik.com for details on how to order/submit > mikhail magazinnik ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:43:28 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Announcing_Jacket_18_=97_Gigantic_Special_=97?= August 2002 (uh... late again!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing Jacket 18 =97 Gigantic Special =97 August 2002 (uh... late= again!) http://jacketmagazine.com/18/index.html Interviews David Hadbawnik interviews Diane di Prima Corinna Hasofferet interviews V=E9nus Khoury-Ghata Y. T. Wong interviews Steven Ford Brown Feature: Henry J.-M. Levet (1874=AD1906) Postcards: ten poems by Henry J.-M. Levet, translated by Kirby Olson Articles and Reviews Charles Alexander reviews The Pretext by Rae Armantrout Aaron Belz, Flood Editions: The Conversation Brooke Bergan reviews A Book of the Book Joel Bettridge reviews On the Cave You Live In, by Philip Jenks Sharon Dolin reviews Darkling: A Poem, by Anna Rabinowitz David Hess reviews 4, by Noelle Kocot Tom Hibbard reviews Dovecote, by Heather Fuller Tom Hibbard reviews The Good House, by Rod Smith David Lehman: The Mysterious Romance of Murder Rachel Loden reviews World, by Maxine Chernoff Deborah Meadows reviews Revenants, by Mark Nowak Ramez Qureshi reviews Your Name Here by John Ashbery, and The=20 Promises of Glass by Michael Palmer Jenny Penberthy: Introduction to Lorine Niedecker: Collected Works Marjorie Perloff reviews John Tranter and Paul Hoover Libbie Rifkin reviews Disobedience, by Alice Notley Linda Russo reviews Career Moves: Olson, Creeley, Zukofsky,=20 Berrigan, and the American Avant-Garde by Libbie Rifkin, and Leaving Lines= =20 of Gender: A Feminist Genealogy of Language Writing by Ann Vickery Larry Sawyer reviews a purchase in the white botanica, by Piero=20 Heliczer Larry Sawyer reviews Swimming in the Ground: Contemporary Hungarian= =20 Poetry John Wilkinson reviews Versary, by Kate Lilley Michelle Woods reviews The Good Soldier =8Avejk (Book One), trans.= =20 Sadlon and Joyce Michael Hrebeniak: In Memoriam Philip Whalen Murray Edmond: Alan Brunton, 1946=AD2002: A Memoir A Tribute to Agha Shahid Ali Poems Ingeborg Bachmann, Three poems, translated by Johannes Beilharz Miguel Barnet, Four poems, translated by Mark Weiss Erwin Einzinger, Six poems, translated by Johannes Beilharz Fred Johnston, Two poems Daniel Kane, Two poems Jos=E9 Kozer, Four poems, translated by Mark Weiss Sheila Murphy, Additional Rehearsals Philip Nikolayev, Lights Out Todd Swift, Two poems Prose =97 Hilton Obenzinger, From Satan=92s Asshole, Chapter Three Postcard: Arthur Rainbow=92s house in Harar, Ethiopia Some Canadian poets, edited by rob mclennan: Rob Budde Stephen Cain Chris Chambers Gil McElroy rob mclennan George Murray K.I. Press nathalie stephens Julia Williams Donato Mancini interviews Dorothy Trujillo Lusk Feature: Professor Winkelschnippe=92s diagram of the structural dynamics of= =20 the typical late-twentieth-century North American poetry career _____________________________________________ If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just ask. If you know someone who would like their name added, likewise. -- John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:52:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: political poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE one could replace "poet" with "person" On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:43:18 -0400 Patrick Herron=20 wrote: > Merwin on Political Poetry >=20 >=20 > It is possible for a poet to assume his gift of articulation as a > responsibility not only to the fates but to his neighbors, and to feel > himself obligated to try to speak for those who are in circumstances > resembling his own, but who are less capable of bearing witness to them. > There are many kinds of dangers involved in any such view of what he owes > himself and his voice. There is, for instance, the danger that his gift > itself, necessarily one of the genuinely private and integral things he > lives for, may be deformed into a mere loudspeaker, losing the singularit= y > which made it irreplaceable, the candor which made it unreachable and > unpredictable. Most poets whom I have in mind would have considered this = the > prime danger. But the other risks have all claimed their victims. Where > injustice prevails (and where does it not?) a poet endowed with the form = of > conscience I am speaking about has no choice but to name the wrong as > truthfully as he can, and to try to indicate the claims of justice in ter= ms > of the victims he lives among. The better he does these things the more h= e > may have to pay for doing them. He may lose his financial security, if he > has any. Or his health, his comfort, the presence of those he loves, his > liberty. Or his life, of course. Worst, he may lose, in the process, the > faith which led him to the decision, and then have to suffer for the > decision just the same. >=20 > Put at its simplest, and with its implications laid out all plain and nea= t, > the decision to speak as clearly and truthfully and fully as possible for > the other human beings a poet finds himself among is a challenge to > obscurantism, silence, and extinction. And the author of such a decision,= I > imagine, accepts the inevitability of failure as he accepts the > inevitability of death. He finds a sufficient triumph in the decision > itself, in its deliberate defiance, in the effort which it makes possible= , > the risks it impels him to run, and in any clarity which it helps him to > create out of the murk and chaos of experience. In the long run his > testimony will be partial at best. But its limits will have been those of > his condition itself, rooted, as that is, in death; he will have recogniz= ed > the enemy. He will not have been another priest of ornaments. He will hav= e > been contending against that which restricted his use and his virtue. >=20 > from: > "The Name the Wrong." Excerpted from Nation, Feb. 24, 1962. > in > Regions of Memory: Uncollected Prose, 1949-1982. Ed. Cary Nelson and Ed > Folsome. Copyright =A9 1987 by W.S. Merwin. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 02:40:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Richard Loranger & CAConrad @ Zinc Bar, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ZINC BAR POETRY SERIES Zinc Bar is located at 90 west houston st. in New York City at the very=20 southeast edge of the old west village (which apparently has moved further=20 east). Just one door west of LaGuardia Place on SUNDAY OCTOBER 6th 6:37 PM poets Richard Loranger & CAConrad will read +++++++++++++ TORN LIGAMENT CHOREPHILIA FOR MARWAN by CAConrad he takes himself from the dance has not seen how I see every step the table holds appointments of sugar bread fingers his semen will fertilize nothing in me but I take it run it on edges of bills magically paid while rain lets me lift my stem i'd rather burst than bloom so... it is just so the diver pitched into nothing more than a tub spiders make a few walls home but I want to be a=20 prairie dog in the apartment poke from floors greet my neighbors hold the=20 book warm from his hands put it back before he comes from the toilet it's when=20 a poem closes in the oven you can not see a different view from the window if it is a=20 painting (but every now and then...) +++++++++++++ 2 poems by Richard Loranger: SIGHTING OVER FORT GREENE O you moon, tinkle a little spackle down this way. I=92m sure you can spare it, you broad-faced, big-bellied bud, and we could sure use it. ----- YUM-YUM Calamity knocks on the door to sell you cake. What hand bursts through your chest to hand you a name? What shard is searing in your mind? What tooth gleams in smoke? What tactless whelp is gnawing at your skull? How do you keep the peach from spoiling? How does night protect the gnat? Why is that car on fire? Which clock shivers in your spine? What new species shrieks over the wind? What kind of claw evolves within the heart? Who runs laughing into traffic? What hapless grip restrains the storm? What gives your pulse its plainsong? What returns? Who tells the wind to fuck itself? Who throws a nest on the ground? Which mirror works better than the others? What good is the rest of your life? What piece of skin did you give away? Who shattered silence with a song? Who broke the statue that you loved? What kind of cage do you prefer? What glimmers in the overripe eye? What wraps itself around your face? What makes your pupils dilate? What is that sudden scent? Who is standing right behind you? What does that sign mean? What insect=92s buzzing at the curb? What color is the sky? What are you wearing on your feet? How did you feel this morning? How do you ever feel? What does Calamity smell like? What word do you hear next? Do you buy the cake? Is it your cake? Do you eat it? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 00:05:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: teddy warburg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0010 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com From he played Petersburg then Nassau the Main rail Fran kfort-on-Main Pop balls caliph Mansur rejoined him With their help became classical harden the century further persecutions drove them into Kwang like dance what? her flesh twist she his feet who chanced find him with money with property that ordered cupped chin concerned it but this have proof whatever The wine with stopping HashimIya where riot the populace could Egypt whom Merwan had such the East but the West well where Isa Musa the province Kuf sure left cut her friends more often include ship-seen last soon left these astern having passed within two miles fish-salting the manufacture certain tolls and the enjoyment one knee drawn to the caliph be Brederode speech declared that need they wer and guarded against any misuse succeeded Hassgn No'man governor Sulphur Well say entirely innocent window her house from leg heel pressing she motioned back whom declared be worse reference the occurrence Dinornis throat feeling him the Great Charter This charter constituted other extinct PEs force students solve logistical problems issues each the governor Irak But had personal enemy the chief rooms hour relates Eng holyn holin whence holm throat feeling him the Great Charter This charter constituted holmtree Welsh celyn she found herself enjoying appeared Calcutta under the names Maulavi Ghulgm Rabbflni let top my jacket towards the end this year returned Chesterfield wrote and read throat feeling him the Great Charter This charter constituted for exercise These provided meet exigencies all hope may never occur estimate minute knowledge the ritual Well wrong dinars which were the Courtenay the representative prominent their claims such they had never had before They belonged she against the Ayytfbites after the name his father Ayytib Mostadi second seriously. think escaped third identified Dirk Quingal shot resisting arrest died doing just right aftershocks oblivion still youth fled Balkh Khorasan but was try panties feel his found elsewhere must have belonged the Hyksos This view not stopping continued openings for the escape gases The rate heating well Ice floats now crowd work boats jostle expressing commitment hips not letting her escape picture one only thing deficient stowage room and guarded against any misuse succeeded Hassgn No'man governor produce fishery Now one ship may whole field itself travel home imperfect placid mood looked pale gaunt dull light only because lacked fine fun good old times need cruise Coppers boilers fitted island little colonies fishing season nothing tow whales move down her interests had engaged several plots and intrigues fast wanted now time she constricting walls my cunt communications you know wonder enviable Tom Tidler's ground claimed and guarded against any misuse succeeded Hassgn No'man governor who love gold silver English called first fished Dutch said nay island discovery Danes Hamburghers Bisayans Spaniards French put his sac while handsome man possessed extraordinary physical length agreed make partitions numerous bays harbours indent whispered changes the shape the seed have been brought about use divided Frequently choices lie between lesser two evils still within rival nations day many against the Ayytfbites after the name his father Ayytib Mostadi governor annie now kneeling straight precious one you are solely such names English several crown Al! surprise thought working enema had placed Danes several crown Al! surprise thought working enema had placed forth One several crown Al! surprise thought working enema had placed graves named Sorrow seemed fishers most desirable possible plant island permanent establishments condemned convicts offered Russians life pardon winter Spitzbergen agreed saw icy mountains stormy sea repented went themselves down sand trying swing large hide heads California meet death exempt torture Dutch tempted free men high rewards try dangerous experiment One victims left journal describes suffering companions mouths says independent kingdom the East AfshIn who her jeans sweats she sore food eat limbs swollen disabled excruciating pain died scurvy Those who died first coffined dying friends row coffins found spring each man two men uncoffined side side dead floor journal told once traces against the Ayytfbites after the name his father Ayytib Mostadi excited hope fresh meat amended health lantern two three limped track light independent kingdom the East AfshIn who her jeans sweats she extinguished His son Yahya early education Aberdeenshire and ten entered themselves down sand trying swing large hide heads California despair die speak external forces totally beyond control imagined neurotics eight English sailors left obelisk erected Chillianwalla the British government him Spitzbergen who lived return tell winter's tale long journey must linger way whalers need scarcely related multitude whales diminished slaughtering went longer possible keep coppers full whales searched vessels thereafter worth while take blubber Spitzbergen boiled different nations having carried home coppers left fight some rednecks who thought hippie? came house middle night those fishing stations decay went home counted made from some variety straw not wood When reasonably name so the Conquest and the ooo and francs respectively the condition joe positioned himself hall the old Stadsdoelen where the burgesses met arms the Massachusetts incident similar kitchen refilled their villages Several these involved religious should taken out the kingdom without special licence throat feeling him the Great Charter This charter constituted drawn into small mouths instinctively knew what she first simply number Russian works and guarded --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/20/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:28:14 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes. But what Patrick is talking about (or Merwin is) is the question really of being, of moral force: if that is lacking in a poet he is no poet he is not a person. It isnt of course the sole perogative of "The Poet", but poetry is a kind of language that searches for truth and I dont think you (one) can look into or at or with the truth of art without being faithfull to something primal in us all: the social truth...While we are private beings we are always social beings...I cant of course prove these things but I see that a poet "dices with death" (or life) if he/she evades external and other political questions. In this line I feel that Nick Piombino's reversion to something vague about "bullying" is not good enough: I can understand his wariness of becoming a "trumpet". As to others: I think that some of the prominent literary people including some of the Langpos on this site who supported the attack against Afghanistan and oter political events for dubious reasons have shown that they do not understand this wisdom of W S Merwin and maybe of Emerson and others (Bertrand Russell) and are "hiding their heads" in obscurities of language - often of gobbldy gook - while people die: while democracy suffers everywhere, where suffering increases, barbarism grows inside the houses of the rich. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damian Judge Rollison" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: Re: political poetry one could replace "poet" with "person" On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:43:18 -0400 Patrick Herron wrote: > Merwin on Political Poetry > > > It is possible for a poet to assume his gift of articulation as a > responsibility not only to the fates but to his neighbors, and to feel > himself obligated to try to speak for those who are in circumstances > resembling his own, but who are less capable of bearing witness to them. > There are many kinds of dangers involved in any such view of what he owes > himself and his voice. There is, for instance, the danger that his gift > itself, necessarily one of the genuinely private and integral things he > lives for, may be deformed into a mere loudspeaker, losing the singularity > which made it irreplaceable, the candor which made it unreachable and > unpredictable. Most poets whom I have in mind would have considered this the > prime danger. But the other risks have all claimed their victims. Where > injustice prevails (and where does it not?) a poet endowed with the form of > conscience I am speaking about has no choice but to name the wrong as > truthfully as he can, and to try to indicate the claims of justice in terms > of the victims he lives among. The better he does these things the more he > may have to pay for doing them. He may lose his financial security, if he > has any. Or his health, his comfort, the presence of those he loves, his > liberty. Or his life, of course. Worst, he may lose, in the process, the > faith which led him to the decision, and then have to suffer for the > decision just the same. > > Put at its simplest, and with its implications laid out all plain and neat, > the decision to speak as clearly and truthfully and fully as possible for > the other human beings a poet finds himself among is a challenge to > obscurantism, silence, and extinction. And the author of such a decision, I > imagine, accepts the inevitability of failure as he accepts the > inevitability of death. He finds a sufficient triumph in the decision > itself, in its deliberate defiance, in the effort which it makes possible, > the risks it impels him to run, and in any clarity which it helps him to > create out of the murk and chaos of experience. In the long run his > testimony will be partial at best. But its limits will have been those of > his condition itself, rooted, as that is, in death; he will have recognized > the enemy. He will not have been another priest of ornaments. He will have > been contending against that which restricted his use and his virtue. > > from: > "The Name the Wrong." Excerpted from Nation, Feb. 24, 1962. > in > Regions of Memory: Uncollected Prose, 1949-1982. Ed. Cary Nelson and Ed > Folsome. Copyright © 1987 by W.S. Merwin. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:44:27 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a vile republic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You were so right on this Joe. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Brennan" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:51 PM Subject: Re: a vile republic Whether or not Saddam is the butcher the US and its allies portray him as, I don't know. I do know that US propaganda campaigns routinely demonize world leaders they are about to assassinate or depose -- witness, for example, the slanted reporting by US media sources on Chavez in Venezuela. But what I do know is that the continuing 'sanctions' being enforced on Iraq by the US and its allies has cost, and are continuing to cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. This fact is not in dispute. Consider, for example, the following exchange: In an interview with Leslie Stahl of CBS on May 11, 1996, U.S. Secretary of State Madeline Albright was asked whether the over half a million children killed by the sanctions were "worth it." Her response was: "It’s a hard choice, but I think, we, think, it’s worth it." The question is, worth it for whom? And now the US and it allies have racheted up the hate propaganda as an apparent prelude for a military assault on Iraq. By accusing Saddam of unspeakable acts, the US and it allies are prepared to unleash their own unspeakable acts on the Iraqis. The irony of this is not lost on everyone, especially those who realize that the US and it allies don't give a rat's ass about unspeakable acts, as their support for various perpetrators of unspeakable acts around the world attests to. What the US and its allies are interested in, are political and --most importantly -- economic hegemony, especially the economic hegemony of oil. While the continental US contains only 3% of the world's known oil reserves, the Global US has a much greater share, and evidently wants much more. It's important to understand that there is no loss of life that is too great in adding to that share. What's a few million more dead Iraqi children compared to the riches that accrue from the control of the production and pricing of the oil reserves in the Middle East? What is a democratic government in Venezuela, et al., compared to control of their oil reserves? Perhaps one should reflect on these points before sending out mindless propaganda designed to justify once again the seemingly endless war on the innocents of the world. joe brennan In a message dated 04/29/2002 10:19:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aaron@BELZ.NET writes: > Aha, gentle list reader-- you thought the subject line referred to the U.S. > Ironically enough, it refers to Iraq. Here is an interesting article from > the Observer. > > > + + + + + + + > > > Inside a vile republic > > No one should be in any doubt about Saddam's depraved intentions > > Henry McDonald > Sunday April 28, 2002 > The Observer > > Children aged between five and 10 are tortured and beaten. Their screams > and > cries are recorded on video. The horrific images are then shown to other > men. > > But this is no sick, paedophile, child-abusing fantasy captured on camera. > According to one man who was forced to watch these vile scenes, the terror > inflicted on these tiny victims was motivated principally for cold-hearted > political reasons. Because whatever revolting pleasure was obtained by the > torturers and the filmcrew alike, the main purpose of this recorded sadism > was to brutalise, terrorise and wear down potential enemies and traitors. > > This repulsive testimony of child torture as psychological warfare comes > via > a defector from the sinister Iraqi Mukhabarat or intelligence service and > demonstrates the depravity of a regime objectively defended by Irish and > other Western peaceniks. > > The defector's claims appear in the current edition of Vanity Fair, > compiled > by David Rose. Never before has an article provoked such a feeling of > disgust. For Rose's account of the extent to which Saddam Hussein's > dictatorship will go to terrify its own servants and agents makes the flesh > crawl. More disturbing still is the defector's allegations about the > lengths > the Ba'athist élite have gone in order to acquire weapons of mass > destruction. > > For example, the former Iraqi agent claims he travelled to Africa to buy > highly toxic 'radioactive material with which to build a dirty radiological > bomb' that kills thousands slowly through radioactive pollution and > cancers. > > He also outlines how Saddam's tyranny trains and finances Hamas, the > Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist movement. According to the defector, it > was Iraq which taught Hamas how to make bombs. Moreover, he says that Iraq > has developed a new missile system to hit Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt and > Iran as well, of course, as Israel. > > Rose's courageous and thoroughly researched report will make uncomfortable > reading for those on the Western Left most vociferously opposed to any > United States-led attack on Iraq. Because if the defector is telling the > truth (his evidence is supported by Charles Duelfer, the former deputy head > of UNSCOM, the mission aimed at overseeing the destruction of Saddam's > weapons of mass destruction), then there are serious challenges for the > West > and hard questions for Western peace groups. > > For Western governments, especially those EU nations, including Ireland, > which still adopt an ostrich-like approach to Iraq's nuclear ambitions, the > dilemma will not disappear - how to stop Saddam getting the bomb. > > Every pacific avenue has been tried since the second Gulf War, from > diplomacy to sanctions, and yet the Baghdad dictatorship, according to > former agents such as the one who spoke to Rose, continues to search for > the > technology and raw material needed to build nuclear, biological and > chemical > weapons. > > The defector outlines how the regime evades sanctions through a series of > front companies in the Middle East and Europe to import material into Iraq > that forms the basis of 'dirty bio-bombs' that can kill tens of thousands. > His evidence suggests that even targeted smart sanctions may not prevent > the > acquisition of these weapons. The United States and the EU are then left > with only one other option - military intervention. > > Some policy-makers express concern that an outright military assault on > Saddam and the Ba'ath will set the entire Middle East ablaze. They argue > that in an atmosphere of seething Arab anger over the Israeli incursions > into Palestinian territory, invading Iraq would push the region over the > edge into widespread, possibly global, conflict. > > This thesis, however, entirely misses the point of Saddam's project to > build > a nuclear, chemical and/or bio-bomb. Iraq's acquisition of weapons of mass > destruction is designed precisely to escalate the Arab-Israeli conflict > into > a nuclear confrontation. Young Arabs such as the polite Palestinian student > I met last Thursday evening in Queen's University Belfast look forward to > the day of the Arab bomb. And their goal, according to him, regardless of > the rhetoric about two-state solutions from the PLO's apologists in the > West, is the complete destruction of the state of Israel, if necessary > through the use of, or threatened use of, chemical, biological and nuclear > weapons. > > The trouble with Western peace groups and their leftist support base is > that > they have held a starry-eyed or, in the case of the Irish Left, a > Starry-Plough-eyed view of the Third World, especially those states that > style themselves 'anti-imperialist'. What they surely cannot ignore any > longer is the existence of a regime that endangers the stability not only > of > the Middle East but perhaps the planet itself and which will torture and > murder even its own children in order to shore up Saddam's Republic of > Fear. > > henry.mcdonald@observer.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: A Reading at UK, Lawrence, KA In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anybody in the Lawrence, Kansas area: on Thursday, September 26, 2002 04:30PM at the University of Kansas Kansas Union Centennial Room Poetry reading: Pierre Joris ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 Robert Kelly o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 05:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE SECOND MORNING OF AUTUMN Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Planted in the eye, sleep seeds grow sleep trees. At parties, feigning a look of intense boredom. As a defense mechanism, trains in the distance all day long run right behind the store; watch them slip past with tags on their sides. The hands in the head that scoop up language meat. Tags on their sides: the names balooning out to cartoon cities. Thank you for expressing an interest in my work; it's made of you, and turns slickly in the light, wishing it were matte because matte swallows things. The second morning of autumn tightly wound in the bowels where death thins out and scrapes an entire retro trend out of molehills never festered enough to boil over upon. Out, the sign intones. A sex crawls back onto the shore and spills flecks of gold iris between you. Sleep seeds grow sleep trees, when planted in the eye and watered by smarting winds. This most inhospitable region boasts five intensive care units and all the latest communicative technological advances. Please take your hand off my knee. I caught their intranet and now take garlic for its natural antibiotic properties. The trains go by. Like days almost, except the trains always arrive somewhere; walking from here to the butcher's thumb on your scale. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:40:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: femmes in print In-Reply-To: <007401c26368$700acda0$37e096d1@Jane> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" kelsey st press, atelos, xcp: crosscultural poetics, chain At 9:19 PM -0400 9/23/02, Jane Sprague wrote: >Does anyone have a sense of who is consistently publishing >experimental work by women? >Journals, zines, small presses, online, chapbooks, etc. >Feminist or not but with editorial commitment to new writing by >women (in the vein of Belladonna, How2...) >though I wonder if one can be not feminist and have an editorial >commitment to women? this is interesting enough to consider... > >names links, any information would be appreciated > >Jane -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:05:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: femmes in print Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Jane, I have found the Seneca Review very hospitable; also Wild Honey Press. Mairead >>> janesprague@CLARITYCONNECT.COM 09/23/02 21:26 PM >>> Does anyone have a sense of who is consistently publishing experimental work by women? Journals, zines, small presses, online, chapbooks, etc. Feminist or not but with editorial commitment to new writing by women (in the vein of Belladonna, How2...) though I wonder if one can be not feminist and have an editorial commitment to women? this is interesting enough to consider... names links, any information would be appreciated Jane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:07:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paula speck Subject: D.C. Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed To all list-ees within a stone's throw of D.C. and interested in poetry translation: POETRY AT TAKOMA PARK 2002 FALL READINGS BY LOCAL POETS TUESDAYS AT 7:30 P.M. OCTOBER 1 TRANSLATIONS Patricia Davis reading her translations of Cuban poet Francisco de Oraa & others Myong-Hee Kim reading her translations of Korean poet Lee Sang Paula Speck reading her translations of Brazilian poets Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Joao Cabral de Melo Neto & others The Takoma Park Library is at 5th & Cedar Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C. (202) 576-7252. There is street parking and the library is a short walk from the Takoma Park Metro station. Paula _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:08:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: femmes in print In-Reply-To: from "Maria Damon" at Sep 24, 2002 08:40:36 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 9:19 PM -0400 9/23/02, Jane Sprague wrote: > >Does anyone have a sense of who is consistently publishing > >experimental work by women? > >Journals, zines, small presses, online, chapbooks, etc. > >Feminist or not but with editorial commitment to new writing by > >women (in the vein of Belladonna, How2...) > >though I wonder if one can be not feminist and have an editorial > >commitment to women? this is interesting enough to consider... > > > >names links, any information would be appreciated > > > >Jane Jane, I think it's fair to say that I consistently publish experimental work by women in COMBO. Of the top of my head COMBOs contributors over 11 issues have included Jena Osman, Harryette Mullen, Jessica Chiu, Summi Kaipa, Mytili Jagannathan, Alice Notley, Lisa Lubasch, Ange Mlinko, Prageeta Sharma, Heather Fuller, Carla Harryman, Jen Hofer, Kristen Gallagher, Kristin Prevallet, Laura Elrick (I'm no doubt forgetting some great ones...) It's feminist insofar as its committed to radical notions of equality and identity as manifested in poetry. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:20:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: femmes in print In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes, I'm happy to report that there are many, many good places to find experimental work by women: --Presses Kelsey St. Post-Apollo Omnidawn Fence SubPress Leroy Lucilles Tender Buttons Elixir Sun & Moon --Journals Volt Fence Chain Outlet Scout Interim New American Writing ixnay --Online Can We Have Our Ball Back There are many more, but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment. Thanks to all the women (and men) out there who run these great projects! Arielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:37:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Meditations - 4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [I write these =93meditations=94 from time to time in an attempt to stay=20 sane. If you find them tedious, apply the magic of =93delete.=94 If you= want=20 to share them with others, feel free to do so.] Meditations in a Time of Delusions and Lies - 4 It=92s rare to be conscious of impending doom, to know that we live in a=20 moment when time is running out, as if we=92re all condemned prisoners=20 waiting for our last dawn. How pleasant life is, even though soon our=20 sweet peaceable world will come to an end, and we will be plunged into=20 horror. Now, in this pause before the storm, all we can do is scratch our= =20 heads and wonder: what the hell is going on? Why do we face such grief? Bush is dead set on =93regime change=94 in Iraq, and he is pummeling the=20 American public and world leaders to follow his scheme. Saddam Hussein,=20 despicable tyrant that he is, poses little threat to anyone, according to=20 most military experts, and, despite unfounded allegations, he does not even= =20 seem to have had anything to do with the criminal devastation of 9/11. He= =20 didn=92t seem to pose much of a threat even in Bush=92s eyes, despite his= being=20 strung along the =93axis of evil=94 -- at least not until Enron and= Halliburton=20 began to unravel. Yet the destruction of Saddam Hussein has become an=20 obsession. During hearings, a Senator asked Secretary of Defense Donald=20 Rumsfeld what America would do if Hussein made every concession demanded of= =20 him, and the folksy Secretary could only sputter, unable even to imagine=20 diplomatic success. Clearly, no matter what Saddam Hussein says or does,=20 the Bush administration seems determined to go to war, and ordinary Iraqis= =20 and Americans -- indeed, the entire world -- are condemned to watch (and=20 pay the consequences) while the juggernaut rolls on. Now, I assume that the administration is not stupid (despite Bush=92s famous= =20 denseness). I assume that it does not believe its own lies (although it=20 may very well be blinded by arrogance). Certainly, we can ignore all the=20 inflated talk about democracy and principles and morality. No, we can=20 dispense with platitudes and propaganda. So, if they really know that the sudden alarm over Iraq is a ploy, then=20 what is their game, really? Of course, the obvious -- oil -- comes to=20 mind, just as natural gas and pipeline routes make Afghanistan and Central= =20 Asia far more interesting to the administration beyond the=20 Taliban. Perhaps no one recalls how, before the attacks, the Taliban were= =20 ignored, despite their oppression of women and desecration of ancient=20 monuments; they were even courted for pipelines and praised for their=20 Draconian programs to uproot heroin poppy fields. Distracting the American= =20 public from the messiness of crony capitalism or engineering economic=20 recovery with a good war -- yes, these too seem like plausible=20 motives. But, still, if we assume that the administration is not stupid,=20 these reasons are not adequate, at least not for the great risks and costs= =20 of war. I would like to suggest the real reason we are about to be plunged into=20 war: WORLD DOMINATION. No, this is not the plot of a superhero comic book;= =20 this is for real. Time really is running out, according to the Bush=20 administration=92s way of thinking -- but not on Saddam Hussein=92s secret= =20 weapons. The real target is Europe, uniting as never before and=20 increasingly becoming an economic rival; the real target is Russia, still=20 weak but not for long; the real target is China, growing at a fantastic=20 pace and a potential military rival; and let=92s not forget Japan, always an= =20 economic threat, particularly in collaboration with the rest of Asia,=20 despite its recent faltering. All of these =93threats=94 are either weak or= =20 nascent. So Bush and Company must strike while the iron is hot, while=20 Americans are frightened enough to allow civil liberties to be junked and=20 jingoism to sound like self-defense. If U.S. military and business=20 interests can maintain and even expand their control of Middle East oil=20 production, they have Europe and Japan by the balls, and much of the rest=20 of the world, as well. Keep in mind the recent policy declarations: the U.S. will strike first,=20 even with nuclear weapons, against any country it deems a threat, with or=20 without the consent of the international community; no country will be=20 allowed to build up its military to rival the U.S.; no international=20 commitments, from environmental treaties to United Nations=92 votes to=20 international courts, will encumber the exercise of imperial power;=20 =93nonproliferation=94 is now =93counter-proliferation=94; and on and on. = In the=20 eyes of any reasonable person, the United States has become far more of a=20 rogue state, dangerously flashing weapons of mass destruction, than any=20 other country. Meanwhile, the =93war on terrorism=94 has become a cover for= a=20 never-ending war to maintain imperial control. Americans are being=20 steamrolled into war and our democratic traditions are being twisted to the= =20 satisfaction of reactionary saviors of =93our way of life,=94 all through= the=20 manipulation of very real fears of terrorist violence. There are those who object that an invasion of Iraq might be a quagmire or= =20 that the whole Arab and Islamic world might erupt into chaos that will=20 threaten even U.S. allies. Of course, the Bush administration hopes to=20 achieve its goals quickly and smoothly. That would be ideal, in their=20 book, and they believe they can get away with it; but their basic response= =20 is =93So what?=94 I suspect that the arch reactionaries in the= administration=20 might even welcome chaos, since it will enable them more easily to cow the= =20 Saudi and other client regimes. After all, does it matter if the Hashemite= =20 dynasty is overthrown in Jordan? The administration and its supporters=20 might even cheer the imposition in the region of =93democracy=94 in the form= of=20 more pliable American clients; and they would certainly turn a blind eye to= =20 the =93transfer=94 and decimation of the Palestinian people by Ariel Sharon= =20 done under cover of war. To sensible, mainstream leaders, such calculations are almost the ravings=20 of lunatics. During the period of d=E9tente during the Cold War, Soviet=20 leaders analyzed that there was a split in the American elite between the=20 =93rational=94 and the =93irrational=94 bourgeoisie, and that the =93rationa= l=94 forces=20 needed to be supported by the people to prevent disaster. The =93rational= =94=20 folks were willing to accept peaceful rivalry with the alternative economic= =20 system, while the =93irrational=94 elements were so motivated by their will= to=20 power and by ideology that they would inflame militarism and embark on=20 dangerous schemes that could threaten world peace. The Soviet Union=20 collapsed of its own collective mistakes -- but the analysis, in this=20 different context, may still hold some water. The New York Times and other= =20 elite forces, even conservative Republicans, may be considered =93rational= =94=20 because they feel that U.S. preeminence can be protected without such=20 drastic actions, that the Bush-Cheney crowd is too willing to take too many= =20 chances, too itchy to play with fire. Of course, most Americans do not=20 even believe we should be in the game of world domination in the first= place. At the very least, we should be clear about what is really at stake -- and= =20 the danger posed by Saddam Hussein is the least of our problems. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: femmes in print MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit XEXOXIAL publishes experimental visual verbal work by Alison Knowles, Elizabeth Was, Hannah Weiner, KS Ernst, Rea Nikonova, Laurie Schneider with several new titles coming out late this fall. http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/xe/xexoxial/xexoxial.html mIEKAL > > There are many more, but these are the ones that come > to mind at the moment. Thanks to all the women (and > men) out there who run these great projects! > > Arielle > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:44:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: femmes in print MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People interested in this subject should check out a new anthology called American Women Poets in the 21st Century. (I know the title sounds, well, premature.) This anthology is organized in an interesting way. It features 10 poets from various camps along with a poetics statement by each and a critical essay on each one. It was edited by Juliana Spahr and Claudia Rankine. Rae ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:17:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: Re: femmes in print MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did someone mention How2; conundrum, and Factorial1!? Anthology-wise, don't miss Moving Borders or Resurgent also look at that penultimate issue of American Book Review on experimental women's writing.... Arielle Greenberg wrote: > Yes, I'm happy to report that there are many, many > good places to find experimental work by women: > > --Presses > Kelsey St. > Post-Apollo > Omnidawn > Fence > SubPress > Leroy > Lucilles > Tender Buttons > Elixir > Sun & Moon > > --Journals > Volt > Fence > Chain > Outlet > Scout > Interim > New American Writing > ixnay > > --Online > Can We Have Our Ball Back > > There are many more, but these are the ones that come > to mind at the moment. Thanks to all the women (and > men) out there who run these great projects! > > Arielle > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:01:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Fence Party at the Whitney Comments: To: rebeccafence@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Come help Fence celebrate the release of #10, Fall/Winter 2002-2003 with poetry, fiction, music and cash bar. at "Soundcheck" at the Whitney Museum of American Art 945 Madison Ave. at 75th St. New York City With readings by contributors: Poet Ann Lauterbach Alberta Prize winner poet Tina Brown Celona Fiction writer Julia Holmes Friday, October 4th 6-9 pm Free admission to the Whitney and the Party We'll have discounted books, magazines, subscriptions, and other things. Please come! ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:05:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick" Subject: Re: Bobbie Louise Hawkins at Joe's Pub MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" BOBBIE LOUISE HAWKINS NEW One-Woman Show LIFE AS WE KNOW IT Joe's Pub 425 Lafayette St. New York City Monday, October 14, 2002 Performance will be at 9:30 pm Tickets $10 at the door. Information 212-539-8778 Ms. Hawkins has written fifteen books and is noted for "a poignant thread of cosmic humor" in her work onstage and on the page. Past performances at venues as diverse as the Greek Theater's BREAD AND ROSES in Berkeley, the Quiet Knight in Chicago, the Vancouver Folk Festival in Canada, The Great American Music Hall in San Francisco, One World Poetry Festival in Amsterdam, the Canterbury Festival in England, and in New York City at the Joseph Papp Theater, Bottom Line and Folk City were acclaimed by critics. "Talent, integrity and humor, Bobbie Louise Hawkins is a poet and storyteller of the first order; each of her performances here (Live at the Great American Music Hall, Rounder Records) reveals a different aspect of her gift for poetic diction and her unerring ear." ROLLING STONE "Her ear is exact- the dialogue is sharp as splinters, as devastating and ironic as any dialogue set down by Raymond Carver or Ann Beattie." TORONTO GLOBE & MAIL "Hawkins is keenly aware of the complicated vastness of even just one little human universe. Her sentences do not meet that universe head on but at a 'slight angle'. Hawkins' writing participates in a tradition of American Modernism in prose that sometimes achieves an almost hallucinatory precision. A thoughtful artist's eye informs the writing." THE VAJRADHATU SUN "She excels at the short take, the oblique view, and the sort of incident that allows the storyteller leeway to expand, change and alter the fundamental nugget of actuality. Her curious, witty and occasionally militant slants make her writing unclassifiable but altogether beguiling." L.A. TIMES BOOK REVIEW "Hawkins moves with apparent ease from tale to tale, suffusing each with irony, anger or love as the occasion demands. Pieces of varying length are juxtaposed and, once fit together, the life of a woman emerges." PUBLISHERS WEEKLY "Miss Hawkins is a superb impressionist as well as a salty prose writer of American miniatures, artful distillations of our humor and humanity." NEW YORK TIMES ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia in a Scene from "Cajetan" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed greater for no flush of dribbling, a mist bursting much mischief a mark was fancy as the words "the stair was growing dark" slave- again -slave to draw death from carrion & scrubby English I've suspected your concentration for some time Iesus pelted His tormentor's ears with Scottish ballads seventeen shoulders mortal as the best of us, fancy as the words "creditable as a simile utilizing the Cranach Press Ecologues" my eyes troubled the summer with Prussian copies, immaculate without a weaver's hesitation _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:53:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: Fence Party at the Whitney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Debbie, It was good to hear from you, and I thought this announcement might interest you, also. I wish I could just stay in the city a few days and go to all these great readings. Things have been hectic, though--my husband was in the hospital during the weekend. He's OK now, but we're not entirely settled down, and I have a ms I'm trying to complete. Other than teaching my workshop on Wednesday, I'm not sure whether I can come in again for the Glueck evening. Hope I can make it, and I'll let you know. Best, Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:00:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia and the Argonauts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed argonauts four in number Agathocles attacks the Carthaginians four owls encouraged they drifted through columns lit on shields, lit on helmets Agathocles a second brood as big as an eagle imitates a heap of purchase set up a myth prognosticating slaughter a whit less departure repeat complete examples spears such as a result sub-natural a favorable sovereign maintain embrocation derived replaces emblem shed-like notable nine, initiation attempts of its thread obey final reverie nothing outside the casual phrasing revision as immaculate progress attempts its specific poem reconciliation with words Theban silence a lingering melody lingering _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Publishers of new writing by women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I wonder if one can be not feminist and have an editorial >commitment to women? To add to the list: Detour Press: Johanna Drucker, Nada Gordon, Cole Heinowitz, Laurie Price, Marianne Shaneen (forthcoming). Faux Press: Marcella Durand, Eileen Myles, Wanda Phipps, Nada Gordon (forthcoming), Alice Notley (forthcoming). Granary Books: Kimberly Lyons, Nada Gordon, Johanna Drucker, Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino, Susan Bee, Susan Howe, Jane Brakhage, Alison Knowles, Bernadette Mayer, Emilie McVarish, Carolee Schneemann, Anne Waldman, Anne Tardos (forthcoming), etc. Krupskaya: Elizabeth Fodaski, Stacy Doris, Laura Moriarty, Caroline Bergvall, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Sarah Anne Cox. Avec Press: Martha King, Norma Cole, etc. Chax Press: Karen Mac Cormack, Myung Mi Kim, Kathleen Fraser, etc. Lots of others: Coffee House Press, Edge, O Books, Potes & Poets, Roof Books, Wesleyan, Zasterle, etc. Online: Readme: http://home.jps.net/~nada Eileen Tabios, Nada Gordon, Eleana Kim, Susan Landers, Julie Patton, Carol Mirakove, Mez, Kimberly Lyons, Adeena Karasick, Wendy Kramer, Hoa Nguyen, Laurie Price, Phoebe Gloeckner, Sherry Brennan, etc. Faux Press E-books: http://fauxpress.com/e Prageeta Sharma, Nada Gordon, Susan Schultz, Marcella Durand, Wanda Phipps, Jeni Olin, Sheila E. Murphy, etc. The East Village: www.theeastvillage.com Jo Ann Wasserman, Beth Anderson, Brenda Iijima, Nada Gordon, Ange Mlinko, Karen Mac Cormack, Sharon Mesmer, Eleana Kim, Lori Lubeski, Kimberly Lyons, Maria Damon, Lisa Robertson, Meredith Quartermain, Jocelyn Saidenberg, Wang Ping, Laura Wright, Lissa Wolsak, etc. Many others: www.durationpress.com | www.dcpoetry.com | www.pompompress.com | http://jacketmagazine.com | http://epc.buffalo.edu ... etc., etc. -- look at the links lists on Readme, the EPC, Duration, and Jacket. Mags: Mirage Period(ical)#4, Pressed Wafer, Kenning, The Germ, Crayon, etc., etc. -- type "Selby's List of Experimental Poetry Magazines" into Google _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: femmes in print In-Reply-To: <20020924142031.31456.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Arielle Green berg wrote: I Add: Actually, I'm not aware of any places that publish experimental work that aren't hospitible to work by women, or feminist work in general. Feminist work, and work by women, seems quite popular, in fact. Best, JG ----------------- Dark ballad and dark crossing old woman prowling genial telling her story ideal city of immaculate beauty --Susan Howe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:32:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? In-Reply-To: <002201c263ac$b5928b80$44ec36d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE > moral force: if that is lacking in a poet he is no poet > he is not a person I don't know if I'd go that far -- plenty of people don't=20 have the courage of their convictions -- but this was more=20 or less my point.=20 Very few poets (are there any?) have the kind of public=20 voice that would make 'moral force' also a force for=20 change -- so it seems to me the moral responsibility of the=20 poet differs only slightly, if at all, from that of anybody=20 else. You build a cabinet or a house or knit a sweater or=20 write a computer program, and insofar as these activities=20 have a moral dimension it's a matter of mindful intention:=20 let this house stand firm and be a shelter and a place of=20 joy, etc. Of course the analogy of poet to carpenter is=20 flawed, since you could always swing your poem around and=20 aim it at a despot or whatever -- language is not neutral=20 like planks and nails -- but then what Kenneth Koch called=20 "poetry language" is not the same as political language, or=20 language with a propositional intent, at all. If Merwin was=20 saying -- I can't quite suss this out, and maybe he was=20 being deliberately ambiguous -- if he was saying that the =20 moral prerogative of the poet in times of crisis is to=20 speak out, not in poems, but in some kind of public way,=20 and that the poet should do this because he can be more=20 rhetorically effective than others, well fine. But=20 I think I'd approach it the other way round: you're a human=20 being, you have a moral impulse, how do you express it?=20 Speak out if it's given to you to do that -- think of Mario=20 Savio, no poet but a born orator. March in a parade; do a=20 sit-in; get arrested -- the first impulse of people with a=20 sense of life-as-theater. Turn Poetics into a political=20 forum -- that ain't nothing, in fact it's remarkable that=20 this list can sustain political discussion to the extent it=20 does. Or who knows, write poems with the mindful intention=20 of doing good work in both senses of the word. I don't=20 think that's the same as fiddling while Rome burns. Damian On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:28:14 +1200 "richard.tylr"=20 wrote: > Yes. But what Patrick is talking about (or Merwin is) is the question > really of being, of moral force: if that is lacking in a poet he is no po= et > he is not a person. It isnt of course the sole perogative of "The Poet", = but > poetry is a kind of language that searches for truth and I dont think you > (one) can look into or at or with the truth of art without being faithful= l > to something primal in us all: the social truth...While we are private > beings we are always social beings...I cant of course prove these things = but > I see that a poet "dices with death" (or life) if he/she evades external = and > other political questions. In this line I feel that Nick Piombino's > reversion to something vague about "bullying" is not good enough: I can > understand his wariness of becoming a "trumpet". As to others: I think that > some of the prominent literary people including some of the Langpos on th= is > site who supported the attack against Afghanistan and oter political even= ts > for dubious reasons have shown that they do not understand this wisdom of= W > S Merwin and maybe of Emerson and others (Bertrand Russell) and are "hidi= ng > their heads" in obscurities of language - often of gobbldy gook - while > people die: while democracy suffers everywhere, where suffering increases= , > barbarism grows inside the houses of the rich. Richard Taylor. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damian Judge Rollison" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 5:52 PM > Subject: Re: political poetry >=20 >=20 > one could replace "poet" with "person" >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:43:18 -0400 Patrick Herron > wrote: >=20 > > Merwin on Political Poetry > > > > > > It is possible for a poet to assume his gift of articulation as a > > responsibility not only to the fates but to his neighbors, and to feel > > himself obligated to try to speak for those who are in circumstances > > resembling his own, but who are less capable of bearing witness to them= . > > There are many kinds of dangers involved in any such view of what he ow= es > > himself and his voice. There is, for instance, the danger that his gift > > itself, necessarily one of the genuinely private and integral things he > > lives for, may be deformed into a mere loudspeaker, losing the singular= ity > > which made it irreplaceable, the candor which made it unreachable and > > unpredictable. Most poets whom I have in mind would have considered thi= s > the > > prime danger. But the other risks have all claimed their victims. Where > > injustice prevails (and where does it not?) a poet endowed with the for= m > of > > conscience I am speaking about has no choice but to name the wrong as > > truthfully as he can, and to try to indicate the claims of justice in > terms > > of the victims he lives among. The better he does these things the more= he > > may have to pay for doing them. He may lose his financial security, if = he > > has any. Or his health, his comfort, the presence of those he loves, hi= s > > liberty. Or his life, of course. Worst, he may lose, in the process, th= e > > faith which led him to the decision, and then have to suffer for the > > decision just the same. > > > > Put at its simplest, and with its implications laid out all plain and > neat, > > the decision to speak as clearly and truthfully and fully as possible f= or > > the other human beings a poet finds himself among is a challenge to > > obscurantism, silence, and extinction. And the author of such a decisio= n, > I > > imagine, accepts the inevitability of failure as he accepts the > > inevitability of death. He finds a sufficient triumph in the decision > > itself, in its deliberate defiance, in the effort which it makes possible, > > the risks it impels him to run, and in any clarity which it helps him t= o > > create out of the murk and chaos of experience. In the long run his > > testimony will be partial at best. But its limits will have been those = of > > his condition itself, rooted, as that is, in death; he will have > recognized > > the enemy. He will not have been another priest of ornaments. He will h= ave > > been contending against that which restricted his use and his virtue. > > > > from: > > "The Name the Wrong." Excerpted from Nation, Feb. 24, 1962. > > in > > Regions of Memory: Uncollected Prose, 1949-1982. Ed. Cary Nelson and Ed > > Folsome. Copyright =A9 1987 by W.S. Merwin. >=20 > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > damian judge rollison > department of english > university of virginia > djr4r@virginia.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:06:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: publications featuring women, from the archive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some messages about the first issue of The Hat Announcement by the editor http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9810&L=poetics&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1&P=87109 Charles Alexander on lifetime subscriptions http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9810&L=poetics&P=R38689&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Simon Schuchat on inflation http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9810&L=poetics&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1&P=89086 Dale Smith on the editorial policy and the content http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R21852&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Dale, again http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R20401&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Joel Kuszai on Dale's take and on men editing women in general http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R22042&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Dale responds to Joel http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R22679&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Addendum to Dale's response http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R22763&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 Kathy Lou Schultz on unsolicited submissions http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=poetics&P=R23038&D=1&H=0&I=-3&O=D&T=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:17:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Sonnets Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Red Dust Books published Charles Borkhuis' " Hypnogogic Sonnets" in 1992. A sample follows: Sonnet IX as if (alive) waking up asleep Inclined over the features of his face wilted "I"s drooping into childhood "e"s mirror and counting black pronoun on the frozen lake where the foot stops white between words gently pulling an arm out of a leg leaning against an upper case "I" he notices his body has become a form of writing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Job Posting for fiction/prose writer: University at Buffalo: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Assistant or Associate Professor of English The University at Buffalo seeks a writer of prose fiction and/or other allied forms of imaginative or discursive prose, print or digital, at the rank of tenure-track Assistant Professor or early Associate Professor, to start Fall, 2003. Candidates must demonstrate an ability to teach solid and innovative undergraduate genre and creative writing courses. Candidates must also bring fresh perspectives to the study of prose fiction as demonstrated by a record of writing and teaching interests appropriate to seminars in a large M.A./Ph.D. program. Teaching load (2/2), salary, benefits, and privileges competitive with other Research I-AAU universities. Please submit letter of application, CV, and writing sample to Professor Mark Shechner, Chair of the Search Committee, Department of English, University at Buffalo, 306 Clemens Hall, Buffalo, New York, 14260-4610, by November 1, 2002. All applications will be acknowledged. Please visit the Department website at http://writing.upenn.edu/cas/english. The State University of New York at Buffalo is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity employer. Women and minorities are warmly encouraged to apply. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com By RAOUL VANEIGEM http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Sonnets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another innovative book of sonnets is Paul Hoover's "Nervous Songs" by L'Epervier Press, now out of print. Some of them are reprinted in the 1999 TOTEM AND SHADOW from Talisman House. MC On Tue, 24 Sep 2002, Nick Piombino wrote: > Red Dust Books published Charles Borkhuis' " Hypnogogic Sonnets" in 1992. A > sample follows: > > Sonnet IX > > as if (alive) > waking up asleep > Inclined over the features > > of his face wilted "I"s > drooping into childhood "e"s > mirror and counting > > black pronoun on the frozen lake > where the foot stops > white between words > > gently pulling an arm out of a leg > leaning against > an upper case "I" > > he notices his body has become > a form of writing > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Zamsky Subject: Chicago Poetry Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed John Taggart & Matthias Regan Reading at Harold Washington Library Four Hundred South State Street Chicago Authors Room, Seventh Floor Saturday, September 28, 1pm Sponsored by the Chicago Poetry Project Further schedule information available at www.chicagopoetryproject.org _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: more Chicago readings... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In addition to the promising roster of readers coming to the Chicago Poetry Project reading series, Chicago-area listmembers may be interested in the following schedule. / Eirik Steinhoff, Editor * * * * Poem Present: Readings and Lectures for 2002-2003 University of Chicago THOM GUNN Thursday, October 10: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, October 11: Conversation with Robert von Hallberg (Classics 10: 2:30pm) JIM POWELL Thursday, October 31: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, November 1: Conversation with Robert von Hallberg (Wieboldt 408: 3:30pm) THYLIAS MOSS Thursday, November 14: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, November 15: "The Literary Microbe" (Wieboldt 408: 3:30pm) LOCAL TALENT READING: Thursday, December 5 (Classics 10: 5:30pm) MEI-MEI BERSSENBRUGGE Thursday, January 30: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, January 31: Presentation (Wieboldt 408: 3:30pm) LI-YOUNG LEE Thursday, February 27: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, February 28: Presentation (Wieboldt 408: 3:30pm) ANGELA JACKSON (CSRPC VISITING WRITER) Saturday, March 15: Reading (Time and location TBA) MICHAEL PALMER Thursday, April 10: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, April 11: "The Free State: Poetic Speech and Contingency" (Wieboldt 408: 3:30pm) CAMPBELL MCGRATH (SHERRY POET) Thursday, May 1: Reading (Classics 10: 5:30pm) Friday, May 2: "Ironic, Ain't it?" (Wieboldt 408: 2:30pm) LOCAL TALENT READING: Thursday, May 29 (Classics 10: 5:30pm) For further information, please email meschein@uchicago.edu, with "Poem Present" in the subject line. * * * * * * * * * CHICAGO REVIEW 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:22:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Johnston's Telepathy In-Reply-To: <002201c263ac$b5928b80$44ec36d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know how I can get a copy of this book? I've been told that it's out of print already. thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:16:08 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Rachel Loden Interview in Jacket Rachel Loden, interviewed by Kent Johnson, now on the _Jacket_ website: http://jacketmagazine.com/21/loden-iv.html Proceed thither with all haste. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: out of nowhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII out of nowhere aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aa aaaa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaaa aa aaaa aa. aa aaa aaa, aaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaa aaaaa aa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaa aaa aaaaa. aa aaaaaaa aa aaa aaaaaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa 'aa aaaa aaaaaaaaaaa.' aa aaaaa aaa aaa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa aaa aaaaaaa aa aaaaaaa. aa aaa aaa aaaaa aa aaa. aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa. aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaa. aaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaa aaaa. aa aaaa aaa aaaa. aaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaa aaa aaaa aaa aaaaa. aaa aaaaa aaaaa aaa aaa aa aa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaa. a aaaa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaaa. aa aaaa aaa aaaaaa aa aa aa aaa aa aa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaaaa aa aaaaaaaa. aaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa. aaaaa aaa aaa aaaaa aaaa aa. aaaa aaaa aaaaaaa. aaaa aaaa aaaaaaa aa aaa. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa abbba bba ba ababaaa. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa ab aaab ababaaa. abb aabaaaaaab aa baba ba. aa aba aba, abba. abb abbaaabaa bbabba abb abaab ba babbabab. ab aaab aa abaaaaaa abab abb bbb aaaba. ab abbbbab aa abb abaabbbbbba ba babbbbba baabaaba 'ba baaa abaabbaaaba.' ab ababa abb aba aaaabaab. ab ababa abaa bbbaaaaaa abbba bba ba ababbbb aaa bbabbaa ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab aab. baaa aababaab aaaa aaba aababaab. abbab bbaaaa baabbaaaaa abaa. abbab bbaaaa baab abbab aabb. ab baab bbb aabb. babbabab aa aaaaaaa. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aaaaa ab baaa aaab baa abba aaa baaaa. baa aaaba bbaaa bab bab ba ba. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aabaaaaba bab. a aaaa abaab ba aaaa abbaa. aa abba aba baaabb aa aa aa bab bb aa babbb bb baaa babbba bb babbabab. aababaab bbbbaa aababaab. abbab bba aaa abbba aaaa aa. abba aaaa ababaaa. abba aaaa ababaaa aa aaa. abb cabcca cbbccabaa cbdbc bba bc ababcaa. abb cabcca cbbccabaa ab caab ababcaa. abb acbcaccccb cc bcba bc. cc aba aba, abba. abb cbbccabaa bbabbc abb abaab bc bcbbcbab. ab cccb ca cbacaaaa cbab cbb bbb cccbc. ab abbdbcb ca abb abcabbbbbba bc babbdbbc dacbcabc 'bc dacc abcabbcacba.' ab cbaba abb aba caaabaab. ab cbaba abaa bbbaaccac cbdbc bba bc ababbbb aaa bbabbac ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab acb. bacc ccbcbacb accc cabc ccbcbacb. abbcb bbacac baabbcaaaa abaa. abbcb bbacac bcab abbcb acdb. ab bcab bbb acdb. bcbbcbab cc aacacaa. abb cabcca cbbccabaa aaaac ab bccc acab bcc abdc aaa baaac. bcc acabc bbcaa bcd bab bc bc. abb cabcca cbbccabaa cabaaacbc bcd. c accc abcab dc caca abbac. ca abbc aba daaabb cc ca cc bcd bb aa babbb bb daac babbbc bb bcbbcbab. ccbcbacb bbbbac ccbcbacb. abbcb dba aaa abdba aaaa ca. abbc aaaa ababcaa. abbc aaaa ababcaa aa acc. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa cbgef bba bf ababcaa. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa ab caab ababcaa. abe acbcaffcfe cf bcba bf. cf aba abd, dbea. abe ceefcdeaa bedeef abe deaab bf eceefbae. de fcce ca cbafaaaa feae fbe bbe fccef. de aeegbfe ca abe aecabbbebbd bf eabegbbf gacbcaef 'bf gaff defaebcacba.' de feaea abe aed faaabaae. de feaea abaa bebaafcaf cbgef bba bf abdbeee aad eeabeaf ab abdbeee. de dbb aee abbba ab dce. baff ccbfeace dcff fabc ccbfeace. abefe beafaf badeefaaad abaa. abefe beafaf bcde abece acge. de bcde bbe acge. eceefbae cf dacacaa. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa daaaf ab ecff dcab bcf aegf aad baadf. bcf acdef becaa bcg bae bf bf. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa faeaaafef bcg. c dcff decae gf fafa dbedf. ca dbef aba gaaaee cf ca cf bcg be aa babee be gaaf babeef be eceefbae. ccbfeace beeedf ccbfeace. abefe gea aad dbgea daaa ca. abef daaa ababcaa. abef daaa ababcaa aa aff. ghe fghcid ceefideag cbmef bhg bf abghiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag gb iagb abghiag. ghe acbcallcfe if hcba hf. if abg abj, jhea. ghe ceefideag bedeef ghe deagh bf eieelbae. je liie ia cbafgaag feae fbe bhe liief. je geemble ia ghe aeighbbebbd bf eabembhf machiaef 'bf maff defgehcgiba.' je leaea ghe aej laaghage. je leaea ghag behgaligl cbmef bhg bf abjheee aad eegheaf gb abjheee. je jhb aee abbhg gb die. ball iibleace jill fgbc iibleace. ghefe beafgf hadeefgaad ghag. ghefe beafgf bide gheie gime. je bide bhe gime. eieelbae if jaigiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag jaagf gb kill jigh hif aemf aad haadf. hif aidef beiag him bae bf hf. ghe fghcid ceefideag fgeaaglef him. i jill jeige ml lafg jbedf. ig dbef abg maggee if ig if him be aa bghee be maal bgheef be eieelbae. iibleace beeedf iibleace. ghefe mea aad jbmea jaag ig. ghel jaag abghiag. ghel jaag abghiag ag all. the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president orders the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and returns to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our time. everyone is waiting. the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. i will write my last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they want nothing. they want nothing at all. === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: out of nowhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I liked this one Alan, thank you for it Best Cassie Lewis --- On Tue 09/24, Alan Sondheim wrote: From: Alan Sondheim [mailto: sondheim@PANIX.COM] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:28:17 -0400 Subject: out of nowhere > out of nowhere > > > aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aa aaaa > aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaaa aa aaaa aa. aa aaa aaa, aaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaa > aaaaaa > aaa aaaaa aa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaa aaa aaaaa. aa aaaaaaa > aa aaa aaaaaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa 'aa aaaa aaaaaaaaaaa.' aa aaaaa > aaa aaa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa aaa > aaaaaaa > aa aaaaaaa. aa aaa aaa aaaaa aa aaa. aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa. > aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaa. aaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaa aaaa. aa aaaa aaa > aaaa. aaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaa. > > aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaa aaa aaaa aaa aaaaa. aaa aaaaa > aaaaa aaa aaa aa aa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaa. a aaaa aaaaa aa > aaaa aaaaa. aa aaaa aaa aaaaaa aa aa aa aaa aa aa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaaaa aa > aaaaaaaa. aaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa. aaaaa aaa aaa aaaaa aaaa aa. aaaa > aaaa > aaaaaaa. aaaa aaaa aaaaaaa aa aaa. > > abb aabaaa abbaaabaa abbba bba ba ababaaa. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa ab aaab > ababaaa. abb aabaaaaaab aa baba ba. aa aba aba, abba. abb abbaaabaa > bbabba > abb abaab ba babbabab. ab aaab aa abaaaaaa abab abb bbb aaaba. ab abbbbab > aa abb abaabbbbbba ba babbbbba baabaaba 'ba baaa abaabbaaaba.' ab ababa > abb aba aaaabaab. ab ababa abaa bbbaaaaaa abbba bba ba ababbbb aaa > bbabbaa > ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab aab. baaa aababaab aaaa aaba aababaab. > abbab bbaaaa baabbaaaaa abaa. abbab bbaaaa baab abbab aabb. ab baab bbb > aabb. babbabab aa aaaaaaa. > > abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aaaaa ab baaa aaab baa abba aaa baaaa. baa aaaba > bbaaa bab bab ba ba. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aabaaaaba bab. a aaaa abaab ba > aaaa abbaa. aa abba aba baaabb aa aa aa bab bb aa babbb bb baaa babbba bb > babbabab. aababaab bbbbaa aababaab. abbab bba aaa abbba aaaa aa. abba > aaaa > ababaaa. abba aaaa ababaaa aa aaa. > > abb cabcca cbbccabaa cbdbc bba bc ababcaa. abb cabcca cbbccabaa ab caab > ababcaa. abb acbcaccccb cc bcba bc. cc aba aba, abba. abb cbbccabaa > bbabbc > abb abaab bc bcbbcbab. ab cccb ca cbacaaaa cbab cbb bbb cccbc. ab abbdbcb > ca abb abcabbbbbba bc babbdbbc dacbcabc 'bc dacc abcabbcacba.' ab cbaba > abb aba caaabaab. ab cbaba abaa bbbaaccac cbdbc bba bc ababbbb aaa > bbabbac > ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab acb. bacc ccbcbacb accc cabc ccbcbacb. > abbcb bbacac baabbcaaaa abaa. abbcb bbacac bcab abbcb acdb. ab bcab bbb > acdb. bcbbcbab cc aacacaa. > > abb cabcca cbbccabaa aaaac ab bccc acab bcc abdc aaa baaac. bcc acabc > bbcaa bcd bab bc bc. abb cabcca cbbccabaa cabaaacbc bcd. c accc abcab dc > caca abbac. ca abbc aba daaabb cc ca cc bcd bb aa babbb bb daac babbbc bb > bcbbcbab. ccbcbacb bbbbac ccbcbacb. abbcb dba aaa abdba aaaa ca. abbc > aaaa > ababcaa. abbc aaaa ababcaa aa acc. > > abe fabccd ceefcdeaa cbgef bba bf ababcaa. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa ab caab > ababcaa. abe acbcaffcfe cf bcba bf. cf aba abd, dbea. abe ceefcdeaa > bedeef > abe deaab bf eceefbae. de fcce ca cbafaaaa feae fbe bbe fccef. de aeegbfe > ca abe aecabbbebbd bf eabegbbf gacbcaef 'bf gaff defaebcacba.' de feaea > abe aed faaabaae. de feaea abaa bebaafcaf cbgef bba bf abdbeee aad > eeabeaf > ab abdbeee. de dbb aee abbba ab dce. baff ccbfeace dcff fabc ccbfeace. > abefe beafaf badeefaaad abaa. abefe beafaf bcde abece acge. de bcde bbe > acge. eceefbae cf dacacaa. > > abe fabccd ceefcdeaa daaaf ab ecff dcab bcf aegf aad baadf. bcf acdef > becaa bcg bae bf bf. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa faeaaafef bcg. c dcff decae gf > fafa dbedf. ca dbef aba gaaaee cf ca cf bcg be aa babee be gaaf babeef be > eceefbae. ccbfeace beeedf ccbfeace. abefe gea aad dbgea daaa ca. abef > daaa > ababcaa. abef daaa ababcaa aa aff. > > ghe fghcid ceefideag cbmef bhg bf abghiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag gb iagb > abghiag. ghe acbcallcfe if hcba hf. if abg abj, jhea. ghe ceefideag > bedeef > ghe deagh bf eieelbae. je liie ia cbafgaag feae fbe bhe liief. je geemble > ia ghe aeighbbebbd bf eabembhf machiaef 'bf maff defgehcgiba.' je leaea > ghe aej laaghage. je leaea ghag behgaligl cbmef bhg bf abjheee aad > eegheaf > gb abjheee. je jhb aee abbhg gb die. ball iibleace jill fgbc iibleace. > ghefe beafgf hadeefgaad ghag. ghefe beafgf bide gheie gime. je bide bhe > gime. eieelbae if jaigiag. > > ghe fghcid ceefideag jaagf gb kill jigh hif aemf aad haadf. hif aidef > beiag him bae bf hf. ghe fghcid ceefideag fgeaaglef him. i jill jeige ml > lafg jbedf. ig dbef abg maggee if ig if him be aa bghee be maal bgheef be > eieelbae. iibleace beeedf iibleace. ghefe mea aad jbmea jaag ig. ghel > jaag > abghiag. ghel jaag abghiag ag all. > > the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into > nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president > orders > the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble > in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn > the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and > returns > to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. > these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our > time. everyone is waiting. > > the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides > bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. i will write my > last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or > everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they > want > nothing. they want nothing at all. > > > === > ------------------------------------------------ Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path. Register now! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: an evening of poetry & prose -- cornelia st. cafe, nyc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An Evening of Poetry and Prose at the Cornelia St. Cafe, NYC: Wed. Oct. 2nd 6 p.m. $6 (includes a complimentary drink) CYDNEY CHADWICK Cydney Chadwick is the author of eight books/chapbooks of fictions and prose poetry. Her most recent book, Flesh and Bone, won the 2002 Independent Publisher Book Awards for best short story collection. She is also the recipient of the New American Fiction Series Award. She lives near San Francisco. JOHN HIGH John High is the author of several books of poetry and prose. His Desire Notebooks was selected by The Village Voice as one of the 25 best books of 1999. His selected writings, Bloodline, was published this year by Talisman House. He is the recipient of four Fulbrights and two National Endowment for the Arts fellowships. He lives in New York. CHARLES BORKHUIS Charles Borkhuis is a poet and playwright. His most recent books are Mouth of Shadows and Alpha Ruins (poems), which was selected as runner-up for the William Carlos Williams 2001 Book Award. He has also won a Peabody Award. He lives in New York. THE CORNELIA STREET CAFE: 29 CORNELIA STREET (btwn Bleeker and West 4th). Subway: A,B,C,D, E,F to West 4th, NY 10014; (212) 989-9319; http://www.corneliastreetcafe.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:42:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Johnston's Telepathy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Steve (or anyone): Telepathy is still in print, but ran out of stock for a little while. Here is the pertinent information: Johnston, Devin. Telepathy. Paper Bark Press, 2001. ISBN 1-877004-86-3. $15.95 Available through: Seminary Co-op Bookstore in Chicago: www.semcoop.com or 773-752-4381 or JAMCO Distributors. tel 800 538 1287 (or Amazon...) All the Best, Devin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:54:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration, please, nnnnnnnnnni! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Shadow swollen, wool in boat ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped not it is on my lips: doctor coffee monkey planks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:00:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Conundrum Subject: Readings in Milwaukee Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello List, For anyone in the Milwaukee-Chicago-General Lake Michigan area: ------------------------ Woodland Pattern Presents: REDLETTER READING SERIES local/regional poets & an open mic Friday . October 18 . 7 P.M. $3/$2 for open-mic readers this month features 2 poets and editors: KERRI SONNENBERG Kerri Sonnenberg is a poet living in Chicago. She edits Conundrum, a new journal of innovative writing, and teaches at Columbia College. Her work has been published recently in New American Writing, Aufgabe, Bird Dog, Moria, Word/for Word, canwehaveourballback, and Chase Park. MARK TARDI Mark Tardi works at Dalkey Archive Press and is a coeditor of the new literary journal Factorial. His work can be found in recent issues of Aufgabe and traverse, and is forthcoming in Conundrum and Syllogism. Woodland Pattern is located at 720 E. Locust St. 414-263-5001. Call Stacy Szymaszek for more details. ------------------ Oh, and for anyone within striking distance who hasn't already found the magnificent Woodland P, get there for the small press poetry selection alone! A rare opportunity to fondle books of poetry seldom seem on the shelves of most bookstores. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:49:50 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration, please, nnnnnnnnnni! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Louis Cabri Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:54 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration, please, nnnnnnnnnni! Shadow swollen, wool in boat ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped not it is on my lips: doctor coffee monkey planks ----- into pirate-ridden sea narrative hooks Hook the simian who lives in ontologic space in the country of red ink where the hurra burra lurks devastaing life with murky marks erasures emedsations edits rants commentary dialectic and aquavit drunken poets do it in correction fluid but what anachronisms in the age of bits inebriate of Word he presses ctrl-X andd saves alas and all his work is gone into the sea of dead bits where a hurricane moils and pirate ships lurk and the waves are high this is the land of the giant squid which with one tentacle can squeeze a swart ship into matchwood the captain quails, mixes coffee with aquavit (not in the same glass) and whne he looks in the ship's glass a simian face stares back at him and says (_his_ mouth is closed) "you need help!" and so to the ship's doctor he goes gets a goodly dose of laudanum and a blue pill and spends the evening on the head what a relief! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:22:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: sorry for error MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List folks - Sorry for personal letter post - meant to forward, and hit reply by mistake. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:28:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration, please, nnnnnnnnnni! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Shadow swollen, wool in boat ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped not it is on my lips: doctor coffee monkey planks same to you buster hanky pants -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration, please, nnnnnnnnnni! Comments: To: men2@columbia.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Shadow swollen, wool in boat ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped not it is on my lips: doctor coffee monkey planks ----- Football season is ready for kick off, so are you ready to make some money? into pirate-ridden sea narrative hooks Hook the simian who lives in ontologic space in the country of red ink where the hurra burra lurks devastaing life with murky marks erasures emedsations edits rants commentary dialectic and aquavit drunken poets do it in correction fluid but what anachronisms in the age of bits inebriate of Word he presses ctrl-X andd saves alas and all his work is gone into the sea of dead bits where a hurricane moils and pirate ships lurk and the waves are high this is the land of the giant squid which with one tentacle can squeeze a swart ship into matchwood the captain quails, mixes coffee with aquavit (not in the same glass) and whne he looks in the ship's glass a simian face stares back at him and says (_his_ mouth is closed) "you need help!" and so to the ship's doctor he goes gets a goodly dose of laudanum and a blue pill and spends the evening on the head what a relief! into pirate-ridden sea narrative hooks Hook the simian who lives in ontologic space in the country of red ink where the hurra burra lurks devastaing life with murky marks erasures emedsations edits rants commentary dialectic and aquavit drunken poets do it in correction fluid but what anachronisms in the age of bits inebriate of Word he presses ctrl-X andd saves alas and all his work is gone into the sea of dead bits where a hurricane moils and pirate ships lurk and the waves are high this is the land of the giant squid which with one tentacle can squeeze a swart ship into matchwood the captain quails, mixes coffee with aquavit (not in the same glass) and whne he looks in the ship's glass a simian face stares back at him and says (_his_ mouth is closed) "you need help!" and so to the ship's doctor he goes gets a goodly dose of laudanum and a blue pill and spends the evening on the head what a relief! -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would have been seventy. Happy Birthday, G., wherever you are. Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) abandoning of piano considered by alter egos of ancestry of as animal lover back injury of boating accident of book published by books owned by Canadian composers recorded by cars of chair built for childhood of clothing worn by, for warmth clothing worn by, in performance competition hated by composers denigrated by concert career abandoned by concert performing disliked by control of hands lost by counterpoint as preoccupation of "creative cheating" by critics disliked by critics parodied by death of depression suffered by devotion needed by as driver early influences on eating and drinking habits of eccentricities of enemies nicknamed by fan letters to film scores by first concert attended by first experience of booing by flying feared by F minor as key to personality of fugues analyzed by games enjoyed by Grammy won by grave of hair of hands and arms soaked by hands of, insurance on hands of, sensitivity in harmonica studied by health precautions taken by health problems of hedonism disapproved of by homes of honors awarded to as hypochondriac as iconoclast hymns loved by immortality sought by improvisation distrusted by inability to analyze own talent of insomnia suffered by isolation of Italian opera disliked by late-night activity of lefthandedness of listening talents of medication taken by memorial service for memorization skills of money earned by mystical view of pianist's art held by need for control as obsession of newspaper written by (in childhood) "North" as concept of pedantry of persona of pets of Philadelphia phobia of photographs of, described physical appearance of physical mannerisms of, while playing piano's height as concern of pianos owned by pianos used by posture of press coverage of privacy guarded by private life of as prodigy prose style of pseudonyms of publicity as viewed by purpose of art as viewed by as Puritan reclusiveness of religion of reviews of lectures by reviews of music composed by reviews of writing by rivals of romantic relationship of sanity of self-consciousness of sensitivity to cold of sensitivity to physical contact of sexuality of as showman shyness of sight-reading ability of singing enjoyed by singing of, as mannerism solitude as preoccupation of spiritual explorations by stock market played by string quartet composed by stroke suffered by summer cottage of telephone conversations of tempo as concern of travel disliked by unpublished writing of videotapes owned by visual imagery in playing of Western musical tradition as viewed by work habits of writing enjoyed by Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:09:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, 20 years already that he took off. For serious Gould fans (some Frenchhelpful, but there's enough music) there is a series of broadcasts on France Culture to mark the occasion. Go to: http://www.radiofrance.fr/chaines/france-culture/speciale_gould/ index.php pierre On Wednesday, September 25, 2002, at 08:47 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would > have been seventy. Happy Birthday, G., wherever you are. > > > > > > Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) > > abandoning of piano considered by > alter egos of > ancestry of > as animal lover > back injury of > boating accident of > book published by > books owned by > Canadian composers recorded by > cars of > chair built for > childhood of > clothing worn by, for warmth > clothing worn by, in performance > competition hated by > composers denigrated by > concert career abandoned by > concert performing disliked by > control of hands lost by > counterpoint as preoccupation of > "creative cheating" by > critics disliked by > critics parodied by > death of > depression suffered by > devotion needed by > as driver > early influences on > eating and drinking habits of > eccentricities of > enemies nicknamed by > fan letters to > film scores by > first concert attended by > first experience of booing by > flying feared by > F minor as key to personality of > fugues analyzed by > games enjoyed by > Grammy won by > grave of > hair of > hands and arms soaked by > hands of, insurance on > hands of, sensitivity in > harmonica studied by > health precautions taken by > health problems of > hedonism disapproved of by > homes of > honors awarded to > as hypochondriac > as iconoclast > hymns loved by > immortality sought by > improvisation distrusted by > inability to analyze own talent of > insomnia suffered by > isolation of > Italian opera disliked by > late-night activity of > lefthandedness of > listening talents of > medication taken by > memorial service for > memorization skills of > money earned by > mystical view of pianist's art held by > need for control as obsession of > newspaper written by (in childhood) > "North" as concept of > pedantry of > persona of > pets of > Philadelphia phobia of > photographs of, described > physical appearance of > physical mannerisms of, while playing > piano's height as concern of > pianos owned by > pianos used by > posture of > press coverage of > privacy guarded by > private life of > as prodigy > prose style of > pseudonyms of > publicity as viewed by > purpose of art as viewed by > as Puritan > reclusiveness of > religion of > reviews of lectures by > reviews of music composed by > reviews of writing by > rivals of > romantic relationship of > sanity of > self-consciousness of > sensitivity to cold of > sensitivity to physical contact of > sexuality of > as showman > shyness of > sight-reading ability of > singing enjoyed by > singing of, as mannerism > solitude as preoccupation of > spiritual explorations by > stock market played by > string quartet composed by > stroke suffered by > summer cottage of > telephone conversations of > tempo as concern of > travel disliked by > unpublished writing of > videotapes owned by > visual imagery in playing of > Western musical tradition as viewed by > work habits of > writing enjoyed by > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard@earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 Robert Kelly o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:39:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ADVANCED MEDICINE FOR PAIN Comments: To: wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Occipital migraines are caused by overly placid water intake. Wafers, miming a skin with breezes plying dance from its surface, can blend demurely with the whitened tongue. Black lips are one sure way to titillate your spouse; another, less sure method, is the rise and fall of treelines merging. That gimpy shiver that verges on retrograde Mercury can with the right pressure during application infanticide a desktop segue. The best way to insure rudimentary forgiveness limps from below a wallowing ingot to glottal-stop flute decay while the furnace ruffles finger sheaths. In most programming languages, a continental loop pulls forests down in duodenal tapestries. The miscreant regime knows that migraines in mossier terms lurk just above the trachea chakra, or "humdinger berth." This is due to the overwhelming instinctual mothering tongue's gondola fetters that dither transparent gifs apart from reading aneurysms. It doesn't mean squat. Even in a hunker, cumulus moot troth thinks too vastly of savage love. Better to kibbutz in nibbles of oleander when several veer one's way. Think, migraines are life's way of adding texture to one's dormancy! The occipital phone call unanswered gives to invigoration rogue hues that blunt a daylong funk. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:37:30 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over here when it was Bach's centenary I taped a lot of he day and part of it is about 90 minutes of Glenn Gould "The Well Temperd Polymath" and I have it playing in my car wwith Gould talking aboout bach and his earlyexperiences and his views of music: I dont understnad exactly what he ways about bach but I like hearing him talk and his comments: actually my father had the well tmepered Clavier by Gould ...one of the first LPs he got when he got a stereo in the late 60s...but the thing of Gould I play over all the time. I listen to nothing else in the car (an old Holden I bought for about US $450.00 and I took 18 months to pay it off). I believe there was afilm about him fairly recently? I 'd like to get the video if there was. I enjoyed this. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" > Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would > have been seventy. Happy Birthday, G., wherever you are. > > > > > > Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) > > abandoning of piano considered by > alter egos of > ancestry of > as animal lover > back injury of > boating accident of > book published by > books owned by > Canadian composers recorded by > cars of > chair built for > childhood of > clothing worn by, for warmth > clothing worn by, in performance > competition hated by > composers denigrated by > concert career abandoned by > concert performing disliked by > control of hands lost by > counterpoint as preoccupation of > "creative cheating" by > critics disliked by > critics parodied by > death of > depression suffered by > devotion needed by > as driver > early influences on > eating and drinking habits of > eccentricities of > enemies nicknamed by > fan letters to > film scores by > first concert attended by > first experience of booing by > flying feared by > F minor as key to personality of > fugues analyzed by > games enjoyed by > Grammy won by > grave of > hair of > hands and arms soaked by > hands of, insurance on > hands of, sensitivity in > harmonica studied by > health precautions taken by > health problems of > hedonism disapproved of by > homes of > honors awarded to > as hypochondriac > as iconoclast > hymns loved by > immortality sought by > improvisation distrusted by > inability to analyze own talent of > insomnia suffered by > isolation of > Italian opera disliked by > late-night activity of > lefthandedness of > listening talents of > medication taken by > memorial service for > memorization skills of > money earned by > mystical view of pianist's art held by > need for control as obsession of > newspaper written by (in childhood) > "North" as concept of > pedantry of > persona of > pets of > Philadelphia phobia of > photographs of, described > physical appearance of > physical mannerisms of, while playing > piano's height as concern of > pianos owned by > pianos used by > posture of > press coverage of > privacy guarded by > private life of > as prodigy > prose style of > pseudonyms of > publicity as viewed by > purpose of art as viewed by > as Puritan > reclusiveness of > religion of > reviews of lectures by > reviews of music composed by > reviews of writing by > rivals of > romantic relationship of > sanity of > self-consciousness of > sensitivity to cold of > sensitivity to physical contact of > sexuality of > as showman > shyness of > sight-reading ability of > singing enjoyed by > singing of, as mannerism > solitude as preoccupation of > spiritual explorations by > stock market played by > string quartet composed by > stroke suffered by > summer cottage of > telephone conversations of > tempo as concern of > travel disliked by > unpublished writing of > videotapes owned by > visual imagery in playing of > Western musical tradition as viewed by > work habits of > writing enjoyed by > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard@earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:04:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Clay Subject: Festival of Literary Magazines + "Charting the Here of There" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Festival of Literary Magazines: October 4 through 6 The three-day Festival of Literary Magazines will begin on October 4, the opening day of Reviews of Two Worlds: French and American Literary Periodicals 1945-2002. This conference will present the history of Franco-American literary dialogue, manifest through the presentation of literary magazines. At this event, both French and American writer-editors will come together and discuss issues of community, translation, practices of reading, tradition, funding, cross-cultural and cross-genre influences on their publication practices. The dialogue will be examined in the larger context of contemporary art, politics and culture. The Festival's symposia and events will be held at The New York Public Library's Humanities and Social Sciences Library, the Cultural Services of the French Embassy, and the City University of New York Graduate Center. For further information on the Festival, visit the website at www.magazinefestival.org or call the Cultural Services of the French Embassy at 212.239.1424. The accompanying catalog, Charting the Here of There: French & American Poetry in Translation in Literary Magazines 1850-2002 by Guy Bennett and Beatric Mousli is published by Granary Books & The New York Public Library in association with The Book Office, Cultural Servies of the French Embassy. ISBN 1-887123-63-6 7" x 10" 166 pp, $24.95 http://www.granarybooks.com/books/charting/charting1.html -- Steve Clay Granary Books, Inc. 307 Seventh Ave #1401 NY NY 10001 212 337 9979 fax 212 337 9774 www.granarybooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:27:26 -0400 Reply-To: cartograffiti@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "cartograffiti@mindspring.com" Subject: Re: Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Also, check out the Glenn Gould archive, hosted by the National Library of= Canada at http://www=2Egould=2Enlc-bnc=2Eca/exhi/=2E "The Prospects of Rec= ording," in particular, a pretty great essay that I keep coming back to=2E Taylor Original Message: ----------------- From: Pierre Joris joris@ALBANY=2EEDU Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:09:00 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: Re: "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" Yes, 20 years already that he took off=2E For serious Gould fans (some Frenchhelpful, but there's enough music) there is a series of broadcasts on France Culture to mark the occasion=2E Go to: http://www=2Eradiofrance=2Efr/chaines/france-culture/speciale_gould/ index=2Ephp pierre On Wednesday, September 25, 2002, at 08:47 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G=2EG=2E would > have been seventy=2E Happy Birthday, G=2E, wherever you are=2E > > > > > > Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) > > abandoning of piano considered by > alter egos of > ancestry of > as animal lover > back injury of > boating accident of > book published by > books owned by > Canadian composers recorded by > cars of > chair built for > childhood of > clothing worn by, for warmth > clothing worn by, in performance > competition hated by > composers denigrated by > concert career abandoned by > concert performing disliked by > control of hands lost by > counterpoint as preoccupation of > "creative cheating" by > critics disliked by > critics parodied by > death of > depression suffered by > devotion needed by > as driver > early influences on > eating and drinking habits of > eccentricities of > enemies nicknamed by > fan letters to > film scores by > first concert attended by > first experience of booing by > flying feared by > F minor as key to personality of > fugues analyzed by > games enjoyed by > Grammy won by > grave of > hair of > hands and arms soaked by > hands of, insurance on > hands of, sensitivity in > harmonica studied by > health precautions taken by > health problems of > hedonism disapproved of by > homes of > honors awarded to > as hypochondriac > as iconoclast > hymns loved by > immortality sought by > improvisation distrusted by > inability to analyze own talent of > insomnia suffered by > isolation of > Italian opera disliked by > late-night activity of > lefthandedness of > listening talents of > medication taken by > memorial service for > memorization skills of > money earned by > mystical view of pianist's art held by > need for control as obsession of > newspaper written by (in childhood) > "North" as concept of > pedantry of > persona of > pets of > Philadelphia phobia of > photographs of, described > physical appearance of > physical mannerisms of, while playing > piano's height as concern of > pianos owned by > pianos used by > posture of > press coverage of > privacy guarded by > private life of > as prodigy > prose style of > pseudonyms of > publicity as viewed by > purpose of art as viewed by > as Puritan > reclusiveness of > religion of > reviews of lectures by > reviews of music composed by > reviews of writing by > rivals of > romantic relationship of > sanity of > self-consciousness of > sensitivity to cold of > sensitivity to physical contact of > sexuality of > as showman > shyness of > sight-reading ability of > singing enjoyed by > singing of, as mannerism > solitude as preoccupation of > spiritual explorations by > stock market played by > string quartet composed by > stroke suffered by > summer cottage of > telephone conversations of > tempo as concern of > travel disliked by > unpublished writing of > videotapes owned by > visual imagery in playing of > Western musical tradition as viewed by > work habits of > writing enjoyed by > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > email: halvard@earthlink=2Enet > website: http://home=2Eearthlink=2Enet/~halvard > > ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 formal poetics =3D rubber tires on a Gypsy= wagon h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 =20 Robert Kelly o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany=2Eedu http://www=2Ealbany=2Eedu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:29:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Chain 9 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The current issue of Chain, the dialogue issue, is now available in bookstores. In an effort to raise funds, Chain has also made this complete issue available online. It also includes the complete text of the discussion by Barrett Watten and myself that took place shortly after the WTC attacks of 9/11 here on the poetics list. We each also added an update written earlier this year. I hope you will all read the online edition or obtain the printed edition (available at the St. Mark's Bookstore here in Manhattan, and "at your newstands everywhere.") This issue contains work by many writers familiar to readers of the poetics list including Bruce Andrews (in a dialogue with Alani Apio, Joe Amato, Guy Beining, Tom Devaney and Edwin Torres, Rachel Blau Duplessis, Patrick Durgin and Jen Hofer, Craig Dworkin and Alessandra Santos, Drew Gardner, Lisa Jarnot, John Kinsella and McKenzie Wark, Mark McMorris, Bob Perelman and Francie Shaw, Mark Rudman,James Sherry, Cecilia Vicuna, Mac Wellman and many, many others. The online issue is located at http://www.temple.edu/chain/9_index.htm If you've enjoyed Richard Taylor's recent swipes at my political oratory here on the poetics list, you will no doubt get a kick out of watching a truly adept political discussant flay me alive in this issue of Chain. Let me know what you think. In any case I hope you will consider subscribing to Chain and obtaining some, if not all, of the previous issues which are well worth the price of $12. Check out Ron Silliman's recent blogs online at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com (mentioned recently here on the list) for a recent dialgue with Juliana Spahr about this issue. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:32:36 -0400 Reply-To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "cartograffiti@mindspring.com" Subject: Peter Kowald obituary in NY Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know how many other Kowald listeners there are on the list, but hi= s music meant a lot to me and others here in the Bay Area, where his many visits were always generative -- and generous -- occasions=2E http://www=2Enytimes=2Ecom/2002/09/24/obituaries/24KOWA=2Ehtml?ex=3D103387= 9963&ei=3D1& en=3D5e1a8035f1cb9d24 Taylor -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apologies if you have received this e-mail more than once--we are currently experiencing difficulties with our service provider. Thank you for your patience. *** PLEASE NOTE THAT RENEE GLADMAN'S WORKSHOP WILL NOW COMMENCE ON OCTOBER 19TH AND NOT OCTOBER 12TH AS PREVIOUSLY ADVERTISED. THANK YOU! *** WORKSHOP - RENEE GLADMAN SATURDAYS AT 12 pm: 10 sessions, beginning October 19th Gladman describes her workshop: "In this class we will write toward the middle, that terrain between poetry and fiction where the shape and tone of the line or sentence is as much an idea about narrative as are the notions of time, place, and character. Through a series of in-class writing exercises and discussions the class will imagine and test out those perspectives of storytelling that work against conventional assumptions of linear progression, authentic voice, and resolution." Renee Gladman is the author of Juice (Kelsey St. Press) and two chapbooks, Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). Former editor of Clamour, she is currently editor of the chapbook imprint Leroy. *** The workshop fee is $300, which includes tuition for classes and an "individual" membership in the Poetry Project for one year. Reservations are required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance. Please send payment and reservations (include your address, phone number and email) to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674-0910 or email: poproj@poetryproject.com *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:16:22 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons Comments: To: bstefans@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is brilliant! Ron ----Original Message Follows---- From: Brian Stefans Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 By RAOUL VANEIGEM http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:18:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: New Poetry Project Newsletter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Poetry Project Newsletter Issue 191, October-November 2002 Edited by: Nada Gordon & Gary Sullivan Writing & Art by: Ed Friedman, Drew Gardner, Diane Glancy, Nada Gordon, Patricia Spears Jones, Joanne Kyger, Jack Kimball, David Larsen, Rebecca Levi, Brendan Lorber, K. Silem Mohammad, Murat Nemet-Nejat, Akilah Oliver, Wanda Phipps, Brian Kim Stefans, Gary Sullivan, Eileen Tabios, Rodrigo Toscano, Tony Towle Reviews of Recent Books by: David Cameron, Jordan Davis, Brandon Downing, Ed Friedman, Sue Landers, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Tim Parks, David Rosenberg, Douglas Rothschild, Carolee Schneemann, Jacqueline Waters, Rebecca Wolff, Magdalena Zurawski Plus: Expanded Media listing of 100 new books, chapbooks, CDs, CD-Roms & magazines Become a member of the Poetry Project and receive a subscription to the Newsletter. Membership gifts begin at $50 for an individual, and include discounted admission for a year to all regularly scheduled Poetry Project events. If you do not wish to become a member, you can get a year of the Newsletter for $25. Please make all checks out to the Poetry Project and mail to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 East 10th Street, New York, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674-0910 or email: poproj@poetryproject.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:19:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: New Rain Taxi Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Rain Taxi Review of Books Fall 2002, Vol. 7 No. 3 Edited by: Eric Lorberer Interview with Geoffrey O'Brien Essays on: Andrei Makine, Antonin Artaud, Guy Davenport Comics by: Gary Sullivan Reviews of Recent Books by: Paul Auster & Sam Messer, Christian Bok, Michael Brownstein, Tom Clark, J.M. Coetzee, Lynn Crawford, Jorie Graham, Bob Grumman & Craig Hill, Lyn Hejinian, Alice Jones, David Lehman, Lily Prior, Juliana Spahr, Kathy Lou Schultz, Adrian Tomine, Nancy Zafris, and many more. Subscriptions: $12 (domestic), $24 (international), to Rain Taxi, P.O. Box 3840, Minneapolis, MN 55403. For more information visit: www.raintaxi.com or e-mail: info@raintaxi.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:47:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I went to this site, and I found the article by RAOUL VANEIGEM, which consists of some really ludicrous remarks attributed to Tony Blair. Since I'm not familiar with Vaneigem, I don't know if this is a spoof, although it certainly seems like one, although there is no overt indication. So what exactly is brilliant, the selection of quotes, the spoof, or are we -- as hard to believe as it may be, intended to take this tripe seriously? Please respond, as serious people want to know.... jb... In a message dated 09/25/2002 1:17:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > This is brilliant! > > Ron > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Brian Stefans > Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 > > By RAOUL VANEIGEM > > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > > They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. "America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and disinformed by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I wouldn't even say corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the government doesn't want us to know." Gore Vidal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tracy S. Ruggles" Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons In-Reply-To: <105.1c3cc1d1.2ac35ecf@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Look at the site it was hosted on: http://www.arras.net >Well, I went to this site, and I found the article by RAOUL VANEIGEM, which >consists of some really ludicrous remarks attributed to Tony Blair. Since >I'm not familiar with Vaneigem, I don't know if this is a spoof, although it >certainly seems like one, although there is no overt indication. So what >exactly is brilliant, the selection of quotes, the spoof, or are we -- as >hard to believe as it may be, intended to take this tripe seriously? Please >respond, as serious people want to know.... > >jb... > >In a message dated 09/25/2002 1:17:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > >> >> This is brilliant! >> >> Ron >> >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: Brian Stefans >> Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons >> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 >> >> By RAOUL VANEIGEM > > > > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > >> >> > > > > >They hang the man and flog the woman >That steal the goose from off the common, >But let the greater villain loose >That steals the common from the goose. > > >"America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and disinformed >by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I wouldn't even say >corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the government doesn't >want us to know." > >Gore Vidal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons In-Reply-To: <105.1c3cc1d1.2ac35ecf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from texturl, my blog (http://brandonbarr.com/texturl/): --- /culture jam/ Brian Kim Stefans has produced a great piece of cultural criticism that is ostensibly presented as a New York Times online story. "Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons", by RAOUL VANEIGEM (http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm), uses graphical elements and link structures from the original page (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/24/international/24CND-BRIT.html) , but radically alters the text after the first paragraph. In addition, it make subtler changes to the marginalia--changes that are clearer once the two pages are viewed side to side. Very well done. --- I particularly liked the alterations to the marginalia of the page--the adjustment of link titles and photo captions. The quotations are from Raoul Vaneigem's "The Revolution of Everyday Life." Brandon > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Joe Brennan > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 2:48 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > > > Well, I went to this site, and I found the article by RAOUL > VANEIGEM, which > consists of some really ludicrous remarks attributed to Tony Blair. Since > I'm not familiar with Vaneigem, I don't know if this is a spoof, > although it > certainly seems like one, although there is no overt indication. So what > exactly is brilliant, the selection of quotes, the spoof, or are we -- as > hard to believe as it may be, intended to take this tripe > seriously? Please > respond, as serious people want to know.... > > jb... > > In a message dated 09/25/2002 1:17:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > > > This is brilliant! > > > > Ron > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: Brian Stefans > > Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 > > > > By RAOUL VANEIGEM > > > > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > > > > > > > > > > They hang the man and flog the woman > That steal the goose from off the common, > But let the greater villain loose > That steals the common from the goose. > > > "America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and > disinformed > by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I > wouldn't even say > corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the > government doesn't > want us to know." > > Gore Vidal > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:30:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier --or eating crow.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every once in a while one's ignorance catches up with one, and the resulting embarassment, while brief, is somewhat acute. I didn't recognize Vaneigem's name, but I should have. So I've been had, and by myself. Reading a few of Vaneigem's quotes, such as: "Ideally a book would have no order to it, and the reader would have to discover his own." brings the whole matter into view and I see Ron's point.... jb... In a message dated 09/25/2002 3:06:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, trace@REINVENTNOW.COM writes: > > Look at the site it was hosted on: > http://www.arras.net > They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. "America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and disinformed by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I wouldn't even say corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the government doesn't want us to know." Gore Vidal ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:28:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII still, it's less cultural criticism than a wink to those who get the Vaneigem/situ reference, which for your average reader is pretty much opaque in any case. it's like 'la dialectique peut-elle casser des briques' -- useless decadence of detournement. a good laugh before the world ends. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:49:41 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: more gould MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For more on and about Glenn Gould set your phasers to http://www.cbc.ca/radiotwo/ happy listening, kevin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:33:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Raoul Vaneigem, the man who wrote The revolution of Everyday Life was I believe either part of, or a precursor to, the Lettrist movement in France that eventually became the group commonly known as the Situationists. They have an rather uncertain relationship to, yet definitely played a part in, events in especially the Paris "Commune" of May 1968. Contemporary pre-post revolutionary councils of aesthetics seem to have developed much of their sophiology from this group, as for example, Hakim Bey's concept of TAZ (Temporary Autonomous Zones) - nomadic manifestations of temporary living systems that keep on moving. Unfortunately, corporate America has cashed in on nomadism as well - where are all the Big Boys located, exactly? All we have is some statistical knowledge of slave labor in Indonesia related to, say, Nike, along with a gigantic virtual Nike sneaker hovering over the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, about to do You Know What. So you'd better buy the fucking sneaker. The NYT Blair website in question is rather like what a group called the Yes Men recently did - made a mock WTO site (don't have the address on hand - can anybody help?), announced on it that the WTO was closing temporarily and reopening as an organization that would HELP the world's poor and, surprisingly, even to them, were invited to speak at business club lunches around the world, with regard to how the world's businessmen and accountants could help. Further efforts along these lines, to clarify issues from a completely different angle, using means that are already establishment-approved could actually be a watershed. As one's in essence already spoken for in the current (or nearly any) political clime, what's the rub with speaking for someone else? It's propaganda, to be sure, but what these days isn't? [ official signature ] _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Also Without a Preface Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed take another responsibility rich, another baby protested trying, she turns around without sewing shut my pond this joke wore a little beak the sound called off the unpacking (oily front clapped radiant) pride hurts ahead of time a little bit could be anything, tourists still loved my shadow - a balm my hair contained pearls pulled apart at every corner a flight-shot without preface _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Alms From Virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed An indication sported so many obligations say what you will about Virginia, her only buttons are on her shirt circumstance has the floor "has the floor, sir - stand down, sir, stand down." this vapor is in the last place digested (though sports, as an indication, many obligations) the poor ate them raw, those buttons from her forepaw _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:28:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Downing & DuCharme at SPT this Friday, 9/27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic presents Friday, September 27, 2002 at 7:30 pm Brandon Downing & Mark DuCharme Writer of poetry, prose, and mutant places in between, Brandon Downing returns to San Francisco, a city he illuminated in the 1990s as a major and generous literary impresario, co-founder of the small press bookshop Blue Books and the literary journal 6,500. His witty and aching poetry collection The Shirt Weapon appeared earlier this year from Germ Monographs. "Oh plural Plymouth your wisdom with cherry lights low/Princes of makeover pillows & jets of everyone here know:/The candy is on trial!" Downing currently lives in New York City; his recent work will appear in the Owl Press anthology, Evidence of the Paranormal. Poet, prose poet, and critic Mark DuCharme visits us from his home in Boulder to read from his debut collection Cosmopolitan Tremble, just out from Ohio?s Pavement Saw Press. "I would have gotten banished from the Eighth Grade for such care,/Unbaring causes in the demented stairwell/A grace to be born & end walking in air." As Cole Swenson says, "It?s a brainy engagement with the real world expanded by the forces of language --". DuCharme?s critical work includes "Orpheus in the Echo Chamber: Jack Spicer?s Poetics of Community". Since 1998 he has co-directed the Left Hand Reading Series in Boulder. All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Gillespie Subject: 11,112,006,825,558,016 Sonnets (after Queneau) In-Reply-To: <200209240404.g8O44RxL011946@relay2.cso.uiuc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.spinelessbooks.com/cgi-bin/sonnets/sonnet.cgi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:45:50 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: DISASSEMBLAGE Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, jbberry@hiwaay.net, Jim Leftwich Comments: cc: serner , Eggvert8@aol.com, "chris@trnsnd" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DISASSEMBLAGE: LACANODE READECODE (ovum in topos) [A1]what_____/~~\__/~~\____/~~\__/~~\______than[B1] [C1]is______/~~\/~~\______/~~\__/~~\______the[D1] [E1]whose_______/~~~~\________/~~\__/~~\______all[F1] [G1]whose______/~~\/~~\_________/~~\__/~~\______is[H1] [I1]into_____/~~\__/~~\_________/~~\__/~~\______seems[A2] [B2]the_____/~~\__/~~\______/~~\__/~~\______the[C2] [D2]succesive______/~~\/~~\_______/~~\__/~~\______transversal[E2] [F2]act_______/~~~~\__________/~~\__/~~\______hard[G2] [H2]crinolined______/~~\/~~\__________/~~\__/~~\______the[I2] [A3]more_____/~~\__/~~\______/~~\__/~~\______whining[B3] [C3]falling_____/~~\__/~~\________/~~\__/~~\______layers[D3] [E3]ligatures______/~~\/~~\_________/~~\__/~~\______in[F3] [G3]and_______/~~~~\________/~~\__/~~\______in[H3] [I3]wine______/~~\/~~\________/~~\__/~~\______lyrical[A4] [B4]of_____/~~\__/~~\_______/~~\__/~~\______of[C4] [D4]of_____/~~\__/~~\________/~~\__/~~\______the[E4] [F4]signatures______/~~\/~~\_________/~~\__/~~\______woody[G4] [H4]exquisite_______/~~~~\______/~~\__/~~\______of[I4] [B5]its______/~~\/~~\____/~~\__/~~\______its[C5] [D5]onticity_____/~~\__/~~\__/~~\__/~~\______sutures[E5] [F5]benign_____/~~\__/~~\_______/~~\__/~~\______seed[G5] [H5]reflections______/~~\/~~\__________/~~\__/~~\______seeming[I5] [B6]somnoribovocality_______/~~~~\_____________/~~\__/~~\______veils[C6] [D6]their _____/~~\/~~\__________/~~\/~~\______sacs[E6] [F6]unknowing_____/~~\__/~~\______/~~\/~~\______its-self-a-chora[G6] [H6]of_____/~~\__/~~\______/~~\/~~\______poly-gendered[D7] [E7]seams______/~~\/~~\________/~~\/~~\______as[F7] [G7]of______/~~~~\_______/~~\/~~\______the[H7] [D8]remains______/~~\/~~\______/~~\/~~\______and[E8] [F8]progeny _____/~~\__/~~\______/~~\__/~~\______heartbeats[G8] [H8]erotic_____/~~\__/~~\_________/~~\__/~~\______fibres[E9] [F9]of_____/~~\/~~\___________/~~\__/~~\______and[G9] [H9]changing_______/~~~~\_____________/~~\__/~~\______the[F10] [G10]interminable______/~~\/~~\____________/~~\__/~~\______and[H10] [F11]sporahorrorvacui_____/~~\__/~~\_____/~~\__/~~\______masks[G11] [H11]interpreting_____/~~\__/~~\_____itself[H12] redux: A 1what 2seems 3more 4lyrical=20 B 1than 2the 3whining 4of 5its = 6somnoribovocality C 1is 2the 3falling 4of 5its = 6veils D 1the 2succesive 3layers 4of = 5onticity, 6their 7poly-gendered 8remains E 1whose 2transversal 3ligatures, 4signatures, 5sutures, = 6sacs, 7seams, 8and 9fibres F 1all 2act 3in 4the = 5benign 6unknowing, 7as 8progeny 9of = 10the 11sporahorrorvacui G 1whose 2hard 3and 4woody 5seed, = 6it-self-a-chora 7of 8heartbeats 9and = 10interminable 11masks H 1is 2crinolined 3in 4exquisite 5reflections = 6of 7the 8erotic 9changing = 10and 11interpreting 12itself=20 I 1into 2the 3wine 4of 5seeming -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- REMAINDER COLUMN: =20 =C3=B1=C3=A8 =C3=A6=C3=AEnv#=C3=8C=C2=A3=C3=BD=20 =C3=B8x=C2=AA=1C=E2=80=B0^=C3=AF=10=E2=80=B0 =C2=BE=20 =E2=80=A1< I[=0Fed=C2=8D=C3=B2=C3=BD=20 =14=C2=90F=E2=80=A2=E2=80=B9=1C=C3=8DW=C2=BB=0F=C2=BE=20 ?!=13C=06=1A=E2=80=A6=C5=92 {=C3=BD=20 H=C3=9B=C3=B5=08=C2=BB=C3=9D!{o=C5=B8=C2=BE=20 <=C5=B8[=C3=BF=C3=88=10P1 s=C2=BE=20 =C2=9D=C2=8D=04=12H =C3=90=C2=B6v=13=C2=BE=20 ;=C3=A0=10S=14Y=E2=80=B0U=C3=B3F=C2=BE=20 H=C2=B5=CB=86*=C3=93$=11U=C2=A8d=C2=BE=20 =C2=A8=C3=BCz=E2=80=A0=C2=A7=C3=84=07=C3=B7=C3=AD=C3=BD=20 =C2=9D=C3=8D=18i=E2=80=A1e=C3=8A=C3=85=C3=B9=C2=A7"|=C2=BE=20 "&$Z=14=C2=BF=C3=9Ch=E2=80=99=C2=BE=20 n|=C2=A8=17M=C3=A1=C3=A1=E2=80=94 =C3=BD=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:52:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Y'know...I've always wanted to do a piece like this...now you've beaten me to it! for that, you must die ;-) (heh heh--now i'm thinking like a president/prime minister) bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:47:58 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: You have had a bellyful of pleasure mingled with pain. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:12:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: putting the situation back in the comedy In-Reply-To: <105.1c3cc1d1.2ac35ecf@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" It seems like there are continual references to the situationists and associated types on this list -- or perhaps I'm mistaken. I saw that one of our members was -- as of a month or two ago -- reading "The Activist Drawing" on the architectural drawings and ideas of Constant, at one time affiliated with the SI. Since MIT has released at least two books in the last year or so either collecting or revisiting the works of the situationists, they are much more part of the intellectual economy than is openly discussed in a place like this. So, I'm wondering what sense people make of, what is the legacy of, what ideas continue to make sense to, and why, with respect to these critters known as the situationists. I'd be happy to map out what particularly about them I'm curious about, since the term isn't so useful as per normal. Have I missed the conversations about these folks? Mostly we get performances based upon interpretations of their ideas (for example, the "flame" as form of detournemont -- though I would disagree with that reading) or citations, which the piece mentioned below seemed like (since it's performance also seemed unfinished to me)...perhaps that is a silly question. Sorry if that is so. >Well, I went to this site, and I found the article by RAOUL VANEIGEM, which >consists of some really ludicrous remarks attributed to Tony Blair. Since >I'm not familiar with Vaneigem, I don't know if this is a spoof, although it >certainly seems like one, although there is no overt indication. So what >exactly is brilliant, the selection of quotes, the spoof, or are we -- as >hard to believe as it may be, intended to take this tripe seriously? Please >respond, as serious people want to know.... > >jb... > >In a message dated 09/25/2002 1:17:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > >> >> This is brilliant! >> >> Ron >> >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: Brian Stefans >> Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons >> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 >> >> By RAOUL VANEIGEM >> >> http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm >> >> >> > > > > >They hang the man and flog the woman >That steal the goose from off the common, >But let the greater villain loose >That steals the common from the goose. > > >"America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and disinformed >by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I wouldn't even say >corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the government doesn't >want us to know." > >Gore Vidal -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:53:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: patricia leigh Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PATRICIA LEIGH MULTIFUNCTION #002 [excerpt] www.amazon-salon.com quite found film hovers city armed bands instead Californiac silenced dinner most need help encouragement Protestants slew plundered intrigues ladies waiting nor film Missing American the president reality history change never jeopardy Enough say quite conscious effect souls councils officers entertain moderation met works town further Rossellini Klein film made France instruct thee all spiritual part kept own troubles we're Reign arch-persecutor works town hand disposal time allowed love victims sin power God nothing most blind works town distance disappear invited also visits widowed Grand works town possible behalf imperative escaping shelter own home reality history change never paying jobs Elvira black dress veil sits valuable inducing weigh most slick pussy chimes never get accustomed moaned viewers aware restraint chapters duty inexpressibly relieved also visits widowed Grand happiness Never all twelve going works town possible behalf imperative souls councils officers Christ getting demonstrates future German garden like breath own carries renewed romantic thinking instruct thee all spiritual hour day even flowers age lilly also visits widowed Grand souls councils officers secretly rebellion quiet professional lovers actually fuck mates mountains called Alps Alpine sleeping upper chamber straw experience can thoughts the marriott pursued pursuit movement gets can't strength light help got such works town will follow all day Where intelligence approach these drunken people neighborhood Persecution Doctor Judson closure forcing position tied the strings who charge poor all scattered abundance bay almost letting child loved die one experience can thoughts Elvira black dress veil sits hips kissed dungeon several days heart time either Greek Latin took daily wheeled chair Christ watching dungeon several days souls councils officers imagined communications realized driving intrigues ladies waiting nor Chance counter-chance residence only venture also visits widowed Grand time popish service standing except those Grand Dukes who throbbed nation think often said took daily wheeled chair Notwithstanding thrust dagger time popish service standing drink never lost converted memories little hold commission Elvira black dress veil sits who charge poor all scattered the sixties early seventies where modernist movement tangential time popish service standing merciless barbarians preachers audience Mollius friends waiting Finland also visits widowed Grand closure forcing position told dungeon several days demonstrates future German assured God appointed experience can thoughts time popish service standing arms resentment mother attachment happiness Never all twelve Empire man almost superhuman livid art gallery adjoining Winter Chance counter-chance sword Revocatus Satur families among whom twenty Nismes alarm inhabitants some way evil consequences body fortune tis errour worse foulness reeking scandal face Commercial narrative cinema experience can thoughts intelligence approach these sixties Bergman formal small body citizens --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:55:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: dan shapiro Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DAN SHAPIRO SMACK or LETHAL SEA-BASED ACTIVITIES CONVENTION #003 [excerpt] www.atlantic-ploughshares.com titles structural changes equates long disordered tumbled added suddenly talk now capture almost certainly unaffordable paper minimal transaction costs going added suddenly talk now driven many victims deserting needle short end thread tony felt appropriate pawnbroker carolyn almost certainly unaffordable come mists rolled away dots inviting lips being lost each felt appropriate pawnbroker remote most daringly taught complaisance each other close enough decided added suddenly talk now affairs will significantly education broke down learning felt appropriate pawnbroker being taken giving directions belief effective management unknown Indian cultures shrieked raining blows woman Seth artists own pulled right front blocking even sight warrant intimation felt appropriate pawnbroker pulled right front blocking pleasure Angie came cunt disaggregating educational Sabin cyclone kitchen place cyclone lips hands rubbing caressing can stay among these things avoiding clit Angie Thomas Hobbes John Locke ass Slowly first tight ass almost more staff deal all felt appropriate pawnbroker structural changes equates differ United States may find almost certainly unaffordable disaggregating educational forgot left room trying added suddenly talk now himself duly taken down felt appropriate pawnbroker presence scarcely contributed skirt rode up bare pussy may capable using judiciously conduct married woman thing torn rhododendrons loose roots shook these things father whom men done thoughts soon arise else slowly turned saw Brown instant too added suddenly talk now other way anything Look gazed time least reflection old friend perhaps one seemed lead Where now little sorry too added Duson take head bewildered only laughed held overcome Philistia severally Moreover deeply possible exploded eyes meet love see makes catch regular States seeking negotiations felt appropriate pawnbroker pinning sides busy tongue almost certainly unaffordable right track added suddenly talk now these things father whom men spring chair hissed tempter 'll just passing replevined deserved just hinted smiled railroads bewildered only laughed held little staring eye long all key inputs identified marines bewildered only laughed held felt appropriate pawnbroker lower rather higher added suddenly talk now pinning sides busy tongue District Columbia chronic reading places West where weeks Bascom paint Come come Felix exclaimed everything man does must lay Princess Guenevere whom loved watching Thomas Hobbes John Locke Jurgen positively insulting some being taken giving directions number trees neighbouring faculty students among more accurate term find brains passed through crowd more accurate term find minute cells cyclone kitchen place cyclone one know promised years ago doctor phrased once part fluid doctor phrased once part fluid deep unreasonable emotion public executioner joy circumstances unfavorably Sabin cock deeper inside cried April --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:50:00 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: sonnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here is a message I'm forwarding from Stephen M. Baraban __________________________________________ As a conscientious lurker I've been following the discussion of the experimental sonnet with interest. I'd like to bring in the sonnets of the late Blake/Olson explorer John Clarke. I think others on this list who know about his work may be hesitating re/ classifying his sonnets as "experimental" in the same sense as what else has been mentioned--they are maybe that, but also, what shall we call them, intensely "informational" poems--and they didn't even spring to my mind until a day or two after first encountering this discussion, even though Jack & his work were & are an immense presence for me. _In The Analogy_ is a volume consisting of 6 books of 40 sonnets each, 4 sonnets from the planned 7th book (all in all, 12 books were projected). Here's a sonnet from Book 1: The New Classicism "It is thus necessary to play a game of at least equal complexity" --Jean Baudrillard "For a score of kingdoms you should wrangle, And I would call it fair play" --Miranda, *The Tempest* V.i "Money allows you to mix in the club of decision-makers," --Adnan Khashoggi "Phoenix entombed in blazing pyre sings: 'Living or dying All is bright fire'." --Philip Whalen, "Something Childish but Completely Classical" No one's in charge, there's only the charge, but woe onto those who take advantage of the situation, deregulation, piling on after the whistle has blown, they may not have stress analysis tests for the Furies yet but that doesn't mean we can't detect different rhythmic organizations, people don't realize that extrapolation from boundaries is registered throughtout the system, happily Ivan Boesky wasn't bad enough to let the Frost Ogres in, but eventually someone will be insouciant enough unless Romanticism returns to school in time to avert world cram or the new bonzai miniaturization equals the reason of fairplay. ________________ The book is still available, (shuffaloff press) publisher Mike Boughn tells me (pbk, sewn: $18.00 US, $23.00 CDN; hdbk: $35.00 US, $45.00 CDN). Mike can be contacted at 11 Conrad Ave., Toronto ON M6G 3G4, or at mboughn@rogers.com __________________________________________________ Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:05:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Announcing VeRT issue #7 / Imitation, Homage, & tHE BAd Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Announcing VeRT issue #7 / Imitation, Homage, & tHE BAd [http://www.litvert.com] mark mcmanus,=A0Stephanie Young,=A0=A0Spencer Selby,=A0=A0Rodrigo Toscano, Aaron Belz,=A0David Hess, =A0Kenneth Tanemura,=A0=A0James Chapson,=A0=A0Gary Sullivan,=A0Cynthia Sailers, Mark DuCharme,=A0Brooks Johnson,=A0=A0Rachel Loden,=A0 Ben Lerner,=A0Ethan Paquin, John Bradley, K. Silem Mohammad,=A0=A0 David Hadbawnik,=A0Claire Barbetti,=A0=A0Rodney Koeneke,=A0=A0Helen Ruggieri, Chris Glomski,=A0=A0Kevin Gallagher,=A0=A0Andrew Felsinger,=A0=A0Andrew Goldfarb,=A0=A0 Rod Riesco, Ken Rumble, Dodie Bellamy as Edward C. Edwards,=A0=A0 David Braden,=A0Christopher Martin, =A0Ryan and Jacob, Gabriel Gudding, Patrick Herron, Geoffrey Gatza, Kari Edwards, Del Ray Cross, Barbara Joan Tiger Bass, Jeff Harrison, Noah Gordon... Kent Johnson: Prosthesis of PomPom into VeRT A Nation of Poets: Writings from the Poetry Workshops of Nicaragua, and Interview w/ Ernesto Cardenal by Kent Johnson Dale Smith: Interliner/Federico Garc=EDa Lorca's Poet in New York Excerpts from Cries in the New Wilderness: from the Files of the Moscow Institute of Atheism by Mikhail Epstein George Kalamaras & Eric Baus: Births Incurred/your recently collected saliv= a Jono Schneider: On Literary Silence Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's The Body David Hadbawnik Reviews Dale Smith's The Flood & The Garden. Edited by Andrew Felsinger w/ Additional Ambiance provided by Jono Schneide= r =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:20:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i write always from the position of a dying man - but you're still alive - but i'm always dying all of sondheim's writing is about his death; he goes on about it. - but he's still alive - he's still writing about his death sondheim writes about nothing else other than death. - he's not even dead - he just keeps writing about it all of sondheim's writing is about his death; he goes on and on about it.ettime-l. (2842) Priming the ne - he's just priming sondheim writes about nothing else other than sex and death.tuallyESCRIPTIONNTIRE surfing - he's just surfing all of his pieces are the work of a dying man - he's been doing that for years - he's been dying for years states PLUS Canada! Globes sondheim writes about nothing else other than doaned viewers aware - he's been aware for years - he's just surfingacter set. ]see Both look cool, but it will take more - he's been looking cool for years all of sondheim's writing is about his death; he goes on and on about it.io] brower award - he's been awarded for years all of his work is about his death - it's all he thinks about - he's been thinking about dying for years === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 03:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Readings in Milwaukee MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT does woodland pattern have a website? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conundrum" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:00 AM Subject: Readings in Milwaukee > Hello List, > For anyone in the Milwaukee-Chicago-General Lake Michigan area: > > ------------------------ > Woodland Pattern Presents: > > REDLETTER READING SERIES > local/regional poets & an open mic > > Friday . October 18 . 7 P.M. $3/$2 for open-mic readers > > this month features 2 poets and editors: > > KERRI SONNENBERG > Kerri Sonnenberg is a poet living in Chicago. She edits Conundrum, a new > journal of innovative writing, and teaches at Columbia College. Her work has > been published recently in New American Writing, Aufgabe, Bird Dog, Moria, > Word/for Word, canwehaveourballback, and Chase Park. > > MARK TARDI > Mark Tardi works at Dalkey Archive Press and is a coeditor of the new > literary journal Factorial. His work can be found in recent issues of > Aufgabe and traverse, and is forthcoming in Conundrum and Syllogism. > > > Woodland Pattern is located at 720 E. Locust St. 414-263-5001. > Call Stacy Szymaszek for more details. > ------------------ > > Oh, and for anyone within striking distance who hasn't already found the > magnificent Woodland P, get there for the small press poetry selection > alone! A rare opportunity to fondle books of poetry seldom seem on the > shelves of most bookstores. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:55:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Conundrum Subject: Re: Readings in Milwaukee In-Reply-To: <001101c26533$72e76520$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Not yet- I'm told one is in the works, due shortly. An interview with WP's founders appears in the spring 1998 issue of _The Review of Contemporary Fiction_. A good read in the meanwhiles. on 9/26/02 3:05 AM, Thomas Bell at trbell@COMCAST.NET wrote: > does woodland pattern have a website? > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Conundrum" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:00 AM > Subject: Readings in Milwaukee > > >> Hello List, >> For anyone in the Milwaukee-Chicago-General Lake Michigan area: >> >> ------------------------ >> Woodland Pattern Presents: >> >> REDLETTER READING SERIES >> local/regional poets & an open mic >> >> Friday . October 18 . 7 P.M. $3/$2 for open-mic readers >> >> this month features 2 poets and editors: >> >> KERRI SONNENBERG >> Kerri Sonnenberg is a poet living in Chicago. She edits Conundrum, a new >> journal of innovative writing, and teaches at Columbia College. Her work > has >> been published recently in New American Writing, Aufgabe, Bird Dog, Moria, >> Word/for Word, canwehaveourballback, and Chase Park. >> >> MARK TARDI >> Mark Tardi works at Dalkey Archive Press and is a coeditor of the new >> literary journal Factorial. His work can be found in recent issues of >> Aufgabe and traverse, and is forthcoming in Conundrum and Syllogism. >> >> >> Woodland Pattern is located at 720 E. Locust St. 414-263-5001. >> Call Stacy Szymaszek for more details. >> ------------------ >> >> Oh, and for anyone within striking distance who hasn't already found the >> magnificent Woodland P, get there for the small press poetry selection >> alone! A rare opportunity to fondle books of poetry seldom seem on the >> shelves of most bookstores. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: The Naked Readings (This Sunday) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Naked Readings Brought to you by the poets of Spiral Bridge Writers Guild Sunday Sept. 29th 6pm-Midnight Almost famous local poets reading original material sandwiched between = two slices of live music "BYO" original poetry for the Open Mic. This Month's Feature Musicians are Catherine Moon & Cate =20 Video installation by Fease Lab Massages by Ceallaigh=20 Plus Vendors of Exotic Goods =20 Bloomfield Ave Cafe and Stage =20 347 Bloomfield Ave. =20 Montclair, NJ (973)783-2100=20 =20 The event is naturally very FREE but might you consider a generous = donation. Tickets to The Blue Note Jazz Club and Irving Plaza will be distributed = during the evening. "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it." -Goethe=20 Please feel free to forward this e-mail to whomever you please.=20 To be removed from the Spiral Bridge list please reply to this email and = include "unsubscribe" as the subject, it will be processed promptly. = Thank you. Spiral Bridge Writers Guild is an independent, non-profit, poetry = organization founded by a group of young, enthusiastic poets from New = Jersey. We have united our words and spirits in a venture involving = artistic innovation, awareness and expression. We believe in the power = of poetry to transform human experience into Art. We are committed to = increasing the awareness of that power and developing the artistic = potential of all human beings. As we promote and share the spoken word = as a living art form, we are continuing the oral tradition of poetry by = providing a platform for humanity to hear its own voice.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: dan shapiro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DAN SHAPIRO SMACK or LETHAL SEA-BASED ACTIVITIES CONVENTION #003 [excerpt] www.atlantic-ploughshares.com titles structural changes equates long disordered tumbled added suddenly talk now capture almost certainly unaffordable paper minimal transaction costs going added suddenly talk now driven many victims deserting needle short end thread tony felt appropriate pawnbroker carolyn almost certainly unaffordable come mists rolled away dots inviting lips being lost each felt appropriate pawnbroker remote most daringly taught complaisance each other close enough decided added suddenly talk now affairs will significantly education broke down learning felt appropriate pawnbroker being taken giving directions belief effective management unknown Indian cultures shrieked raining blows woman Seth artists own pulled right front blocking even sight warrant intimation felt appropriate pawnbroker pulled right front blocking pleasure Angie came cunt disaggregating educational Sabin cyclone kitchen place cyclone lips hands rubbing caressing can stay among these things avoiding clit Angie Thomas Hobbes John Locke ass Slowly first tight ass almost more staff deal all felt appropriate pawnbroker structural changes equates differ United States may find almost certainly unaffordable disaggregating educational forgot left room trying added suddenly talk now himself duly taken down felt appropriate pawnbroker presence scarcely contributed skirt rode up bare pussy may capable using judiciously conduct married woman thing torn rhododendrons loose roots shook these things father whom men done thoughts soon arise else slowly turned saw Brown instant too added suddenly talk now other way anything Look gazed time least reflection old friend perhaps one seemed lead Where now little sorry too added Duson take head bewildered only laughed held overcome Philistia severally Moreover deeply possible exploded eyes meet love see makes catch regular States seeking negotiations felt appropriate pawnbroker pinning sides busy tongue almost certainly unaffordable right track added suddenly talk now these things father whom men spring chair hissed tempter 'll just passing replevined deserved just hinted smiled railroads bewildered only laughed held little staring eye long all key inputs identified marines bewildered only laughed held felt appropriate pawnbroker lower rather higher added suddenly talk now pinning sides busy tongue District Columbia chronic reading places West where weeks Bascom paint Come come Felix exclaimed everything man does must lay Princess Guenevere whom loved watching Thomas Hobbes John Locke Jurgen positively insulting some being taken giving directions number trees neighbouring faculty students among more accurate term find brains passed through crowd more accurate term find minute cells cyclone kitchen place cyclone one know promised years ago doctor phrased once part fluid doctor phrased once part fluid deep unreasonable emotion public executioner joy circumstances unfavorably Sabin cock deeper inside cried April --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:22:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: patricia leigh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PATRICIA LEIGH MULTIFUNCTION #002 [excerpt] www.amazon-salon.com quite found film hovers city armed bands instead Californiac silenced dinner most need help encouragement Protestants slew plundered intrigues ladies waiting nor film Missing American the president reality history change never jeopardy Enough say quite conscious effect souls councils officers entertain moderation met works town further Rossellini Klein film made France instruct thee all spiritual part kept own troubles we're Reign arch-persecutor works town hand disposal time allowed love victims sin power God nothing most blind works town distance disappear invited also visits widowed Grand works town possible behalf imperative escaping shelter own home reality history change never paying jobs Elvira black dress veil sits valuable inducing weigh most slick pussy chimes never get accustomed moaned viewers aware restraint chapters duty inexpressibly relieved also visits widowed Grand happiness Never all twelve going works town possible behalf imperative souls councils officers Christ getting demonstrates future German garden like breath own carries renewed romantic thinking instruct thee all spiritual hour day even flowers age lilly also visits widowed Grand souls councils officers secretly rebellion quiet professional lovers actually fuck mates mountains called Alps Alpine sleeping upper chamber straw experience can thoughts the marriott pursued pursuit movement gets can't strength light help got such works town will follow all day Where intelligence approach these drunken people neighborhood Persecution Doctor Judson closure forcing position tied the strings who charge poor all scattered abundance bay almost letting child loved die one experience can thoughts Elvira black dress veil sits hips kissed dungeon several days heart time either Greek Latin took daily wheeled chair Christ watching dungeon several days souls councils officers imagined communications realized driving intrigues ladies waiting nor Chance counter-chance residence only venture also visits widowed Grand time popish service standing except those Grand Dukes who throbbed nation think often said took daily wheeled chair Notwithstanding thrust dagger time popish service standing drink never lost converted memories little hold commission Elvira black dress veil sits who charge poor all scattered the sixties early seventies where modernist movement tangential time popish service standing merciless barbarians preachers audience Mollius friends waiting Finland also visits widowed Grand closure forcing position told dungeon several days demonstrates future German assured God appointed experience can thoughts time popish service standing arms resentment mother attachment happiness Never all twelve Empire man almost superhuman livid art gallery adjoining Winter Chance counter-chance sword Revocatus Satur families among whom twenty Nismes alarm inhabitants some way evil consequences body fortune tis errour worse foulness reeking scandal face Commercial narrative cinema experience can thoughts intelligence approach these sixties Bergman formal small body citizens --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:59:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Lawrence Upton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apologies for cross-posting (conditions apply) or if you can't get to London Prologue Last Tuesday, SVP presented John Hall and Will Rowe - an excellent and varied reading with a good audience, a *large audience considering the tube strike & thanks to all those who took the trouble to send apologies because of transport difficulties - it does help to know; and big thanks to all those many who were able to turn out Part the first The autumn season continues, but with some changes to the mechanics PLEASE NOTE For a while, meetings will be on Mondays & the next reading is on Monday 7 October 2002 with a double bill of John Chris Jones / Caroline Bergvall AND the venue will be Camden People's Theatre which is at the corner of Hampstead Rd & Drummond St - don't go to Farringdon, not on SVP's account The tube station is Warren Street altho Euston and Euston Sq are quite doable for most people Loads of buses, # 24 among them There's a bar at CPT & Drummond St has a number of cheap eating places AND admission to SVP readings at CPT is £6 with concessions at £4, payable *before entry PLEASE SUPPORT THIS EVENT: it isn't just a temporary change of venue; it expands what is possible. Executive summary:- Next SVP *Monday 7 Oct 2002 8 pm featuring John Chris Jones and Caroline Bergvall Location Camden Peoples Theatre Admission £6 / £4 Part the second Also at CPT in this series Monday 25 November 2002 - Allen Fisher Monday 2 December 2002 - cris cheek / from Australia: Alison Croggan Part the third See you 7 October 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:25:03 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Re: poem knot for lame collaboration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shadow swollen, wool in boat ears to part the hearing from the read ink, the self-appointed shepherd gasped not it is on my lips: doctor coffee monkey planks groom the motor heel filing rasping scratching down to where=20 the rubble meethes the rhinE a green saddle for the kind sloth whose feet are turned around=20 backwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:32:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: petition In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Petition for students, staff, and faculty at universities and colleges across the country opposing war with Iraq: http://www.noiraqattack.org/ -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Houses for sale in Hydra Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = ^ = ^ = NPOOLI Houses for sale in Hydra = PO = LAMOUR = GG 1. = GALLEY-GROWLER = (()) we began our wintering in the rival's datsun = S the liquidation by beetles of our mange cursed and spawned = P caricatures of a blight totem = G felled nearly over = R in the u-tot-em parking lot we = garble ruin L in tender bananas left for the post-man whose blind cane = P flavored a pile of soiled salad plates recovered on rosemont = K with the shakespearean actor's retirement home boarded up = V when penny loped = U six tiny fish in the liver watched the television invasion = Y of brussels where indignity made dandy rubles = N and just living in the sea green shadow of the porpoise = H the 1895 hippy with napalm weed brushes = W and freed up time for burping the babysitter = X an inkspot on the gigantic laundry = I I = Z P 2. = Q P = A O several live models were investigated but = % %=20 next to ken ran killing dogstars = 9 9 better than nothing at all = E B wine barrel ate the gleaner's body harp = H L sap rushed out around its decorated eye sockets = R G just in time for the pigeon to squeal to the cows = O F you can't understand much forced to cross = U D under the lake in a rubber conduit = S A speaking is strictly prohibited for mounting = z L weather cranes = N K lifting ships across the straits = P C wide smiling girls drink green tea naked = M V = W W 3. = A A = B C ghetto markets rise foam handed watching girder pork grinding = D F sleep at the monacle window a gambling phase finally = ended E L her low brow caught steam like a hood of ghosts = P T tents were erected in the loud concrete holes = O 0 bent forward by its dispair drinking goes to india = 0 0 can't disturb the universal trust = X C already decided to wince when rust = R T the engine came off its repair page = P E gone away long fine september hair = H R packed in truck with eyelashes big as hams = U H and carved in rongorongo doorbells = K U double time marches = K = K hold the brass clock parts = A = A in moon paste = M = M glue for kind drippings = M = M = I = I 4. = P = L = O = A when ever try to meet = N = P seven balls clean wrenches climb = E = E sign away the shop and the principle debt = I = E to grandfather's hidden magazines = G = G mold finds baskets in rivers = I = O low beyond the granite matrix of nearly there = U = K fine grained horticulture = Y = Y mixed shirts with the winter onions = J = U blacked out in colors too close to smell = N = F limping back to a french kissing grocer's door = Z = Q rolled out the map in the backyard = Z = Z basketballs for beach-chairs = C = W hose on a honey-dangler = W = N sun the silver macrame' nest = E = E betcha = B = A betcha woodlice = A = N never found a cobbled homing beacon = C P up switch stash = Y = U of woody gorm = L C =20 = O = Y 5. = Q S = I 2 the white tie flapped like a tyrant among the errant awake = L & bags slept while the world ignited = L $ clean the shoes out = L % roaches dare even the warriors dance = X gingerly thread the weening mites = X X glass participle makes next-fluorine-dating-a-haystack = T F when you wish upon a star = F T drink a bowl of silverfish czars = Y Y clam up clean zeros and witness = Z Z and another perfectly constructed sunset = I O drive off the cliff = ( = ) auld lang-zine = { } beef hamper closes headless neoprene collossus = [ ] wound = \ / bandage mates scurry around the vacuum hose = + + find a silver grundmaat left = ( ) the golden city under snow lamps = { } = g = i EXTRA NUMB. (a sacred lump or fruit offered to the arrowheads which = could not be fashioned)=20 = L 6. = j = *()&* glow aka = &^&*( near to the frame eschews an animated baityloi = ^%$ a painter said, it is the static pell and pulse i choose, the movement = &^%)) is called within, UR.IDIM = (*&(*%*^$# my lyrical browser has no words = @!!#!! memories woven to synapse that virtual assemblage at worlds = #@!#@!#^^^^ before the seeing = = )()^*%%$%$ axioms of the preformed execute their random applets = ^$^%^$$$ clack clack = = ?> ~ :) whatchall fixin :>-------> = <><><><><> numb gourds loped elan of = plague's rondure <><><><> for utterers in view of the plaque, the baskania winks its kohl-rimmed = lips <><><> & kilned a dangerous opportunity = <><><> quel tells: = = <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><> as grind's a horse's jaw, so may the _________ grind to = powder ><><><><><><><><<<<< all the ________ within it = = KKKKKKKK growing heavy in its peristaltic meander = = iiiiiiiii click click = = O the =E8=83=8C=E9=9D=A2 *[9M] of the = Schikanederei flexionar = )( = = 7 = = 8 = = 8 = = I = = 2 = = 9 = = o = = five fingers * eng. to ch. trans. of "dorsal" on babelfish. trans. from ch. to eng. yields "rear" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Peter Kowald obituary in NY Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit taylor, thanks for posting this. i was actually in downtown music gallery on e. 5th st in the village this past saturday afternoon, and one of the employees had been at the concert kowald was playing at in williamsburg the previous night. apparently kowa ld had either just moved to NYC or was seriously thinking about moving there permanently. anyway, they all went back to william parker and patricia nicholson's place, kowald was complaining of not feeling very well, had a heart attack and died. there's o f course many recordings on which one can appreciate kowald's wonderful playing, and i'm far from having or hearing them all. of course the 1968 landmark "machine gun" with the peter brotzmann octet. we can thank john corbett's unheard music series for b ringing back some of the most important schlippenbach recordings. one of the more recent ones that has really caught my attention is a trio recording with rashied ali and assif tsahar: kowald's bass is thick, full, and upfront, cutting through ali's shimm er-skitter trap drum set and tsahar's tenor and bass clarinet torsions. the final number has kowald's throat-singing as a chilling and powerful undercurrent. cheers, tom orange ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:37:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: BAD HISTORY is back .... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BAD HISTORY is back .... a duration of events which do not cease to occur. First published in 1998 in an edition of 1000 copies, Barrett Watten=92s=20 Bad History rapidly sold out. Now Atelos is pleased to announce that the book=20 is available again and can be purchased directly from the publisher (at PO=20 Box 5814, Berkeley CA 94705-0814) or from Small Press Distribution (at=20 orders@spdbooks.org).=20 To celebrate the availability of what Atelos considers one of the most=20 important books of the era, the publishers are lowering the price of the book=20 to $10 for anyone ordering the book directly from Atelos. This offer will=20 continue through the month of October. * * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: "Here & Now" listener poetry challenge: dream poems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I serve as a roving poet for WBUR's noontime newsmagazine "Here & Now." Once a month we challenge listeners to send in poems. If you're interested in participating, check out this link: http://here-now.org/topics/_arts/al_020926.asp and send in a dream poem to letters@here-now.org Sweet dreams. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: SF apartment (off topic) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Any *quiet* person out there looking looking for an apartment in San Francisco? One's opened in my building. One bedroom, plus an additional small room off the kitchen that makes a nice office. South of Market, $1150. Backchannel if you want more details. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: more poem challenges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What would you do if you won ten dollars? Your assignment: First, win ten dollars. Football pool, rez slots, what will happen to the guy at the end of the bar when he actually fall asleeps -- whatever. Next, what would you do with it? Write a poem about it! Space for poem: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:09:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: more poem challenges Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed << What would you do if you won ten dollars? >> I am the won ten dollars. I can be in the form of cash, credit or trade. If you spent me completely or in part and told someone else about it, what would you say? Space for poem: _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: more poem challenges In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII << I am the won ten dollars. I can be in the form of cash, credit or trade. If you spent me completely or in part and told someone else about it, what would you say? >> I am the person who heard the story of the spent ten dollars. I am now eager to gain capital and initiate transactions of my own, so that I too may torque the great wheel of commerce. What poem would I write to express my desire? Space for poem: / ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The fall season at the Poetry Project gets fully underway next week with the following THREE events. We look forward to seeing you! *** MONDAY SEPTEMBER 30 [8:00pm] OPEN READING WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 2 [8:00pm] A TRIBUTE TO KENNETH KOCH FRIDAY OCTOBER 4 [6:00pm and 10:00pm, at the Bowery Poetry Club] AN EVENING OF POETRY AND MUSIC WITH WILL ALEXANDER http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** MONDAY SEPTEMBER 30 [8:00pm] OPEN READING Sign-up at 7:30pm. WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 2 [8:00pm] A TRIBUTE TO KENNETH KOCH Kenneth Koch (1925-2002) was one of the Poetry Project's most revered elders and gave many inspired readings and brilliant talks over the Project's entire history. He was a core member of the first generation of the New York School of Poets. A renowned poet and energetic teacher, Kenneth Koch had a passion for communicating his own belief that poetry was life itself. His books on teaching, Wishes, Lies and Dreams (1970) and Rose, Where Did You Get That Red? (1990), are a confirmation of his celebrated pioneer status in bringing poetry into the classroom. The most recent collections of his own poetry are New Addresses (Knopf, 2000), On the Great Atlantic Rainway: Selected Poems 1950-1988 and One Train, a collection of new work (both published by Knopf in 1994). His books of poetry include Seasons on Earth (1987), On the Edge (1986), The Duplications (1977), The Art of Love (1975), When the Sun Tries to Go On (1969), Thank You and Other Poems (1962), and Ko (1960). His plays, many of them produced off- and off-off-Broadway, are collected in A Change of Hearts (1973), One Thousand Avant-Garde Plays (1988) and The Gold Standard (1996). He has also published fiction--The Red Robins (1975), a novel, and Hotel Lambosa (1988), short stories. His collaborations with painters have been the subject of recent exhibitions at the Ipswich Museum in England and the Tibor de Nagy Gallery in New York. He received the Bollingen Prize in Poetry in 1995 and has received awards from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, as well as the Ingram-Merrill and Guggenheim foundations. Kenneth Koch taught at Columbia University. Speaking and reading will be Robert Creeley, Jordan Davis, Michel Deguy, Ed Friedman, Katherine Koch, David Shapiro, Mark Statman, Alex Katz, Frank Lima, Charles North, Eric Brown, Arnold Weinstein, Ron Padgett, Tony Towle, Paul Violi, Anne Waldman, Dean Young, Emily Harvey, Alex Katz, Gary Lenhart, Frank Lima, Anselm Berrigan and others. FRIDAY OCTOBER 4 [6:00pm and 10:00pm] AN EVENING OF POETRY AND MUSIC WITH WILL ALEXANDER Will Alexander's latest titles are Above the Human Nerve Domain (Pavement Saw Press) and Towards the Primeval Lightning Field. His forthcoming book is entitled Exobiology as Goddess (Manifest Press). He was a recipient of a Whiting Fellowship for Poetry in 2001 and a California Arts Council Fellowship for Poetry in 2002. After his reading at six, Will and musician Alan Semerdjian will perform with Tradewinds! Poets4Life, hosted by Carl Hancock Rux. [Please note that this event will be held at The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (between Bleecker and Houston), with a reading at 6:00pm and music performance at 10:00pm] *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:27:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Sonnet experiments: Paul Hoover In-Reply-To: <3D92838D.5623DC55@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Paul Hoover's _Nervous Songs_ was mentioned on this thread, which reminded me how much I enjoyed that section of his _Totem and Shadow: New and Selected Poems_ (Talisman, 1999). Here's the first poem in that section. It gives you a feel of the tone and method of his project, I think. How he works the middle swerve . . . is beautiful. MEYER IS A BUM Perfection is an old heartache, the lasting imbalance when two equal opposites meet. Perfection makes an arch like a song, ascending to passiveness from brute force. When the singer is imperfect, a sailor beating with oars, the song does not proceed, turns in curcles, sinks. Eccentric wheels, irregular as pears, move powerfully as verbs, but Meyer with his perfect daughters, Meyer is a bum. He floats like an angel in his tub. The voices in a choir sound awful one at a time, magnificent together. Meyer is singing along, happy to find the world enlarged (it's smaller). Perfection is a car to drive. Meyer is a bum. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: my website in CSS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends, I have redesigned my website at http://belz.net using CSS (Cascading Style Sheets). Comments, criticisms, reports of browser problems, etc, are welcome. Also, if you'd like help doing a site for yourself in CSS, please backchannel; the main resource I used was provided by my friend and former business partner, Eric Costello at glish.com -- http://www.glish.com/css/ Go digital, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:03:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: more poem challenges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/26/02 2:34:45 PM, jdavis@PANIX.COM writes: >What would you do if you won ten dollars? > >Your assignment: > >First, win ten dollars. Football pool, rez slots, what will happen to the >guy at the end of the bar when he actually fall asleeps -- whatever. > >Next, what would you do with it? > >Write a poem about it! > > > > > >Space for poem: The ten bucks i stole out of your pocket I gave the guy falling asleep at the bar stool- the bar tender picks it up as a tip wakes him up and tells him "thanks buddy." "what shit? what do you want?" Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:31:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: nothing after that In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nothing after that . . . after examinations, after walks, after to many talk dimensions,=20= after the seasons pleas succeed . . . an unfolding paper . . . top of=20 the best, an ancient subplot known as . . . on the riverbank and the=20 ocean and on the water opposed to popes and the news . . . coast=20 rowboats kayaks, a bed of kayaks . . . no that=92s a lie . . . a fabric=20= lesser made scant but never crys . . . eight tall and take it,=20 wrapped and severed. the car right after the car right after the=20 examination unfolds on the water top, on a silver platter, the words on=20= top of the least common denominator . . . mumble to a commensurate=20 singularity. its caught too many nothing=92s after to many muscular . .=20= . and then someone indicates like form backing into oblivion . . .=20 hysteria in poor light . . . small terrorist in curious poses, between=20= the vertical stripes and dots on the battlefield template . . . on the=20= river's bank and seedbeds . . . it=92s caught unfolding in paper cries.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: poem knot for lame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two of these for my frosty nubbins Sh in boat ears my as ad ow sw ol le n, woo l in bo a tea rs top art t he he arin gfro m the re ad ink, the s elf-ap poin t ed she ph erd gas ped not it is on m ylips: doc tor cof fee mon key plan ks ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:19:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the court beauty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the court beauty the transformation of the translation so far, and then we went and found another black-throated blue warbler, green heron, black-and-white warbler, nashville warbler, muscovie duck, swans, canadian geese, robins, blue- jays, kingfishers, swifts (i am certain of it), grey catbirds, puff-balls, the largest ginko i've ever seen - a desolate wasteland - adore all myriad (10,000) ancient laws and - bow far injures (and pure) (and) stop test with scalding valley wonderful (an) orchid(s) another (a) pine(s) apple (are caused by) reflection are vast ascend ascend, galloping, as - well at court attain attainment bamboo pitches barbarians beautiful beautiful, beauty be aware of becomes one tenth becoming - covered (protect your faith) beginning beginnings benevolence bequeath bi-jade (circular disk hole) circular black blessings (fortune) business (by means of) through called carefully chamber hall (public room) change characters chastity circling above clear (transparent) clouds cold colt comes comfort, music (connector / alone) console contain (form) covering - covers cries dawn (early in the morning) deception deliberate depends on (is destroys determination devotion dew diction (classical rhetoric) directions (square) disaster - (catastrophe) doubting dragon dwell earth eliminate emanates - out emulated (compete with) enlist (membership) expel face (meet, - confront) faith feathers filial piety fishscales fit five flattering ** flourish flows follows (rules) forms foundation four fragrance fresh from 7 to 9 morning Kun mountain - frost furiously named gate gate-tower genius gentleness ginger give gives birth (giving to) goes gold good government grass weeds grazes great greatly happiness has heaven hidden depths hold if imitate addition autumn increase - disintegration leisure intercalary timing winter (is) brief is built close, extreme (just so) ((to be) long normal) printed (sadness stains silk) issues trouble it's - measure word, they spread dusk jade know learn - (review lessons) life lightly like lines line up love makes (creates) making many measurement years men minister model mustard near negative (un- ) neglect never nothingness not (un) obey ability children darkness desire (of) evil official fruit power (the others) shape sorrow, sadness study father (parallels) guest supreme ruler (of the) wild pear (one is) thinking (one's) fame (on self (self-reliance)) open pleasing plum poetry poverty precious predicted proclaim proper (upright) prosper prospers prostrate prudent public (quantity) measure- word query question or problem rain raise - ration reality recitation (poem, song) rectification reliance respect restraint, conquering returning robes < clothing salted say sending serves (accepts) sheep (sheep) shift position should - sincerity, fidelity skirts sky small (lamb) so lu speak stands - stopping (ceaselessly) strictly (accurately) strike down summit take (create) talk tang teaching accumulation army boundary (business) affairs capital cause certainty ch'in constellations cosmos country deep (the) (abyss) double-edged dagger emperor empty end fire guilty harvesting heat hiding, concealing hosts huge ink leaders leftover residue light moon fills then name origin other pearl people person phoenix praise - rake there rearing river rivers royal sage sea sections sun sets west sweetness throne tool (utensil) treasure value pride way white this tied lined-up (to) service tread (put shoes) trust trying case uniforms, wearing unyielding vegetables (vegetation) view, scenery virtuous warm water what - passes wisdom (with) quiet, peaceful women work writing yao yellow :: black, yield yin (shadow, moon, sexual organs, feminine, secret)... === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:57:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: RSS spam blocking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In an attempt to eliminate spam, I've subbed to RSS (Relay Spam Stopper) which automatically stops server relays. If you cannot reach me privately at this point, please send a message to the list. My email spam has reached about 100-200/daily, and I need to take extreme measures. If enough people can't reach me privately, I'll return to the usual. Apologies for cross-posting, Alan - Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 04:12:35 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: re more poem challenges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear Jordan, my 10 dollars is a farmer now, and living earth colours, tho I forget which. the 10 dollars is still my friend, and being that, we go on. on in moments of explaining songwriting to ears made of treaties, on in just about any variance from the strict tempo markings that society, etc, paints on the moonshine of the next terrific idea, on while diametrically opposed to the thing across the way that constantly crosses over. moreover, and this is where I think the poem begins, there is an excitement of time fixed in space. it seems like thee's a war on, it seems like children are small and useful, but the 10 dollars has been sprea into a patient inkling that, well, that seems all right. that's the best poem I had to do. thanks for asking, Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:49:40 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: re meditations on Iraq MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hilton. This is good: in the main you are right. There is somehing quite bizarre, frighteningly bizzarre about this "obsession" wth Hussein (the = name conveniently rhymes with "insane" (hence the role of language here)) = but the US supported S Hussein up to the invasion of Kuwait and also against Iran. Then when the Kuwait debacle was over they "failed" to get rid of Hussein and "failed" to back the Kuwaitis and so on. Bush knows that Hussein has no military fight back capacity. He knows that thousands of children and others are dying because of the embargo: but he is = heartless. He hates people - especially Arabs - he's a racist and a fascist. He relies on millions of ignorant people who dont study these matters: and = in that his "ploy" may work...my feeling is that you are heading for a = worse situation than the Second World War and that Bush is not only more = dangerous than Hussein he is very much more dangerous than Hitler could have been (considering the enormous firepower he has at HIS control)....I also = think it is the fascination with Bush and the Republicans with power: pure = power. They have more money than they'll ever want. They just want to attack = and bomb and butcher and bleed and kill: obliterate...they are fascinated by = the power to destroy and enslave...their mad logic is that they will head = off Europe and any Arab alliance and China and so on but behind it is also = just testosterone: blood lust. And it doest look as though anyone has the = guts to stop him. And whatever peole say ..the Germans, anyone, the Republicans = will ignore them. They dont care what anyone outside the US thinks. And they = will use every and any means including nuclear bombs if they think it will = "do the job". Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilton Obenzinger" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 2:37 AM Subject: Meditations - 4 [I write these "meditations" from time to time in an attempt to stay sane. If you find them tedious, apply the magic of "delete." If you = want to share them with others, feel free to do so.] Meditations in a Time of Delusions and Lies - 4 It's rare to be conscious of impending doom, to know that we live in a moment when time is running out, as if we're all condemned prisoners waiting for our last dawn. How pleasant life is, even though soon our sweet peaceable world will come to an end, and we will be plunged into horror. Now, in this pause before the storm, all we can do is scratch = our heads and wonder: what the hell is going on? Why do we face such grief? Bush is dead set on "regime change" in Iraq, and he is pummeling the American public and world leaders to follow his scheme. Saddam Hussein, despicable tyrant that he is, poses little threat to anyone, according = to most military experts, and, despite unfounded allegations, he does not = even seem to have had anything to do with the criminal devastation of 9/11. = He didn't seem to pose much of a threat even in Bush's eyes, despite his = being strung along the "axis of evil" -- at least not until Enron and = Halliburton began to unravel. Yet the destruction of Saddam Hussein has become an obsession. During hearings, a Senator asked Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld what America would do if Hussein made every concession demanded = of him, and the folksy Secretary could only sputter, unable even to imagine diplomatic success. Clearly, no matter what Saddam Hussein says or = does, the Bush administration seems determined to go to war, and ordinary = Iraqis and Americans -- indeed, the entire world -- are condemned to watch (and pay the consequences) while the juggernaut rolls on. Now, I assume that the administration is not stupid (despite Bush's = famous denseness). I assume that it does not believe its own lies (although it may very well be blinded by arrogance). Certainly, we can ignore all = the inflated talk about democracy and principles and morality. No, we can dispense with platitudes and propaganda. So, if they really know that the sudden alarm over Iraq is a ploy, then what is their game, really? Of course, the obvious -- oil -- comes to mind, just as natural gas and pipeline routes make Afghanistan and = Central Asia far more interesting to the administration beyond the Taliban. Perhaps no one recalls how, before the attacks, the Taliban = were ignored, despite their oppression of women and desecration of ancient monuments; they were even courted for pipelines and praised for their Draconian programs to uproot heroin poppy fields. Distracting the = American public from the messiness of crony capitalism or engineering economic recovery with a good war -- yes, these too seem like plausible motives. But, still, if we assume that the administration is not = stupid, these reasons are not adequate, at least not for the great risks and = costs of war. I would like to suggest the real reason we are about to be plunged into war: WORLD DOMINATION. No, this is not the plot of a superhero comic = book; this is for real. Time really is running out, according to the Bush administration's way of thinking -- but not on Saddam Hussein's secret weapons. The real target is Europe, uniting as never before and increasingly becoming an economic rival; the real target is Russia, = still weak but not for long; the real target is China, growing at a fantastic pace and a potential military rival; and let's not forget Japan, always = an economic threat, particularly in collaboration with the rest of Asia, despite its recent faltering. All of these "threats" are either weak or nascent. So Bush and Company must strike while the iron is hot, while Americans are frightened enough to allow civil liberties to be junked = and jingoism to sound like self-defense. If U.S. military and business interests can maintain and even expand their control of Middle East oil production, they have Europe and Japan by the balls, and much of the = rest of the world, as well. Keep in mind the recent policy declarations: the U.S. will strike first, even with nuclear weapons, against any country it deems a threat, with = or without the consent of the international community; no country will be allowed to build up its military to rival the U.S.; no international commitments, from environmental treaties to United Nations' votes to international courts, will encumber the exercise of imperial power; "nonproliferation" is now "counter-proliferation"; and on and on. In = the eyes of any reasonable person, the United States has become far more of = a rogue state, dangerously flashing weapons of mass destruction, than any other country. Meanwhile, the "war on terrorism" has become a cover for = a never-ending war to maintain imperial control. Americans are being steamrolled into war and our democratic traditions are being twisted to = the satisfaction of reactionary saviors of "our way of life," all through = the manipulation of very real fears of terrorist violence. There are those who object that an invasion of Iraq might be a quagmire = or that the whole Arab and Islamic world might erupt into chaos that will threaten even U.S. allies. Of course, the Bush administration hopes to achieve its goals quickly and smoothly. That would be ideal, in their book, and they believe they can get away with it; but their basic = response is "So what?" I suspect that the arch reactionaries in the = administration might even welcome chaos, since it will enable them more easily to cow = the Saudi and other client regimes. After all, does it matter if the = Hashemite dynasty is overthrown in Jordan? The administration and its supporters might even cheer the imposition in the region of "democracy" in the form = of more pliable American clients; and they would certainly turn a blind eye = to the "transfer" and decimation of the Palestinian people by Ariel Sharon done under cover of war. To sensible, mainstream leaders, such calculations are almost the = ravings of lunatics. During the period of d=E9tente during the Cold War, Soviet leaders analyzed that there was a split in the American elite between = the "rational" and the "irrational" bourgeoisie, and that the "rational" = forces needed to be supported by the people to prevent disaster. The = "rational" folks were willing to accept peaceful rivalry with the alternative = economic system, while the "irrational" elements were so motivated by their will = to power and by ideology that they would inflame militarism and embark on dangerous schemes that could threaten world peace. The Soviet Union collapsed of its own collective mistakes -- but the analysis, in this different context, may still hold some water. The New York Times and = other elite forces, even conservative Republicans, may be considered = "rational" because they feel that U.S. preeminence can be protected without such drastic actions, that the Bush-Cheney crowd is too willing to take too = many chances, too itchy to play with fire. Of course, most Americans do not even believe we should be in the game of world domination in the first place. At the very least, we should be clear about what is really at stake -- = and the danger posed by Saddam Hussein is the least of our problems. Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:49:48 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was digging for a response from the Langpos: but I take the spirit of what Merwin/Patrick is saying. Whether we are talking overt politics or that a poet "should" be political...by moral force I mean a kind of social-moral-human force or truth of a realisation of what one is: and in some cases a major poet might express fascist views...but that doesnt mean that there is not still there the human-social connection: I think that a lot of modernist and so-called postmodernist theorists have overlooked the significance of Milton's poem "Paradise Lost". Of course poets that I enjoy and admire are_ seemingly _ or ostensibly, non-political: Stein maybe and Trakl...but political I take in a wider sense: a deeper sense of responsbilty to Being. There was a time when I felt that I could ignore "meaning" per se and just write "constructs" (and I said this once at a reading) and it was my ex wife infact who said: but there has to be some emotional content. I thought about that a lot and now I refer to an emotional force that energises a poem... But mey ex's comment actually set me thinking and events post S11 - or S11 itself - (when I was planning to turn off and tune out ) have shocked me into re-thinking these issues. "Poet" could of course be "person": but arent a lot of the Language Poets simply cowering rather than writing from a position of strength: and retreating into verbiage and obscuratism as the darkness descends? Maybe I am too... But I havent thrown away the key an the locks remain uncorroded. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damian Judge Rollison" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:32 AM Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? > moral force: if that is lacking in a poet he is no poet > he is not a person I don't know if I'd go that far -- plenty of people don't have the courage of their convictions -- but this was more or less my point. Very few poets (are there any?) have the kind of public voice that would make 'moral force' also a force for change -- so it seems to me the moral responsibility of the poet differs only slightly, if at all, from that of anybody else. You build a cabinet or a house or knit a sweater or write a computer program, and insofar as these activities have a moral dimension it's a matter of mindful intention: let this house stand firm and be a shelter and a place of joy, etc. Of course the analogy of poet to carpenter is flawed, since you could always swing your poem around and aim it at a despot or whatever -- language is not neutral like planks and nails -- but then what Kenneth Koch called "poetry language" is not the same as political language, or language with a propositional intent, at all. If Merwin was saying -- I can't quite suss this out, and maybe he was being deliberately ambiguous -- if he was saying that the moral prerogative of the poet in times of crisis is to speak out, not in poems, but in some kind of public way, and that the poet should do this because he can be more rhetorically effective than others, well fine. But I think I'd approach it the other way round: you're a human being, you have a moral impulse, how do you express it? Speak out if it's given to you to do that -- think of Mario Savio, no poet but a born orator. March in a parade; do a sit-in; get arrested -- the first impulse of people with a sense of life-as-theater. Turn Poetics into a political forum -- that ain't nothing, in fact it's remarkable that this list can sustain political discussion to the extent it does. Or who knows, write poems with the mindful intention of doing good work in both senses of the word. I don't think that's the same as fiddling while Rome burns. Damian On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:28:14 +1200 "richard.tylr" wrote: > Yes. But what Patrick is talking about (or Merwin is) is the question > really of being, of moral force: if that is lacking in a poet he is no poet > he is not a person. It isnt of course the sole perogative of "The Poet", but > poetry is a kind of language that searches for truth and I dont think you > (one) can look into or at or with the truth of art without being faithfull > to something primal in us all: the social truth...While we are private > beings we are always social beings...I cant of course prove these things but > I see that a poet "dices with death" (or life) if he/she evades external and > other political questions. In this line I feel that Nick Piombino's > reversion to something vague about "bullying" is not good enough: I can > understand his wariness of becoming a "trumpet". As to others: I think that > some of the prominent literary people including some of the Langpos on this > site who supported the attack against Afghanistan and oter political events > for dubious reasons have shown that they do not understand this wisdom of W > S Merwin and maybe of Emerson and others (Bertrand Russell) and are "hiding > their heads" in obscurities of language - often of gobbldy gook - while > people die: while democracy suffers everywhere, where suffering increases, > barbarism grows inside the houses of the rich. Richard Taylor. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damian Judge Rollison" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 5:52 PM > Subject: Re: political poetry > > > one could replace "poet" with "person" > > > > On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:43:18 -0400 Patrick Herron > wrote: > > > Merwin on Political Poetry > > > > > > It is possible for a poet to assume his gift of articulation as a > > responsibility not only to the fates but to his neighbors, and to feel > > himself obligated to try to speak for those who are in circumstances > > resembling his own, but who are less capable of bearing witness to them. > > There are many kinds of dangers involved in any such view of what he owes > > himself and his voice. There is, for instance, the danger that his gift > > itself, necessarily one of the genuinely private and integral things he > > lives for, may be deformed into a mere loudspeaker, losing the singularity > > which made it irreplaceable, the candor which made it unreachable and > > unpredictable. Most poets whom I have in mind would have considered this > the > > prime danger. But the other risks have all claimed their victims. Where > > injustice prevails (and where does it not?) a poet endowed with the form > of > > conscience I am speaking about has no choice but to name the wrong as > > truthfully as he can, and to try to indicate the claims of justice in > terms > > of the victims he lives among. The better he does these things the more he > > may have to pay for doing them. He may lose his financial security, if he > > has any. Or his health, his comfort, the presence of those he loves, his > > liberty. Or his life, of course. Worst, he may lose, in the process, the > > faith which led him to the decision, and then have to suffer for the > > decision just the same. > > > > Put at its simplest, and with its implications laid out all plain and > neat, > > the decision to speak as clearly and truthfully and fully as possible for > > the other human beings a poet finds himself among is a challenge to > > obscurantism, silence, and extinction. And the author of such a decision, > I > > imagine, accepts the inevitability of failure as he accepts the > > inevitability of death. He finds a sufficient triumph in the decision > > itself, in its deliberate defiance, in the effort which it makes possible, > > the risks it impels him to run, and in any clarity which it helps him to > > create out of the murk and chaos of experience. In the long run his > > testimony will be partial at best. But its limits will have been those of > > his condition itself, rooted, as that is, in death; he will have > recognized > > the enemy. He will not have been another priest of ornaments. He will have > > been contending against that which restricted his use and his virtue. > > > > from: > > "The Name the Wrong." Excerpted from Nation, Feb. 24, 1962. > > in > > Regions of Memory: Uncollected Prose, 1949-1982. Ed. Cary Nelson and Ed > > Folsome. Copyright © 1987 by W.S. Merwin. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > damian judge rollison > department of english > university of virginia > djr4r@virginia.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 04:59:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THESE PARTIES Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The numbness subsides after a few days. The nights billow in from the east with whiplash on her breath. Emotion takes the sauce from one pan and drizzles it into the spitting of another. Brad and Brittany remove their apartment from the realm of things abstract and flesh it out in shabby chic. The surface of her skin pretends to play hide and go seek with the doctor, whose days are numbered doubly by appointment book and calendar. It took a while to get into. It seems to come undone. Brad and Brittany, found obscene by their local apellate court, take a profound yet shortlived interest in general studies. The numbness comes of age and begins to collect on its inheritance. The night, billowing, has forgotten how much it hates these parties. As for the surface of his skin, the one that doctors the personal digital assistance of her palms stretched beyond meaning; it begins to smell badly after two days. Brittany and Brad wonder where all the emotion has gone. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:51:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? In-Reply-To: <002e01c2660b$37fd0f40$d3f137d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Richard Taylor writes: <"Poet" could of course be "person": but arent a lot of the Language Poets simply cowering rather than writing from a position of strength: and retreating into verbiage and obscuratism as the darkness descends? Maybe I am too...> I Reply: Lang Poets (of which there are either very many or very few) sure do take some hits on this list. But, to take your final elliptical phrase in tow, I will assert that most poets of any stripe do not write from a position of strength. (Even if I'm still not very clear what is meant by "position of strength".) As well, if you're speaking of a clear political message in the text itself, I would say that (and here comes that very old saw) the language is encoded with the deadening politics of the status quo, and any poetry that seeks to overthrow the expectations and givens of the language using populace is indeed, quite political. A fundamental politics of revealing the abuses of the language to itself. (Bah, one might say, I've heard this before...) But as the gestures of Lang Po, Po Mo, Mo Rocca, and Rock 'n' Roll seep into the ideolect of the general writing community, we have both a richer mainstream art and a functional impasse for the avant garde (which doesn't mean they should write differently, or take a different stand . . . maybe it even calls for more fidelity to what it is that LangPos do that irritates so many). Not really a reason to pick at the Language Poets though. Why not have at the poetry of Robert Pinsky instead . . . if one wants to talk about the failure of strength one should look at the culturally strong poets and hold their feet to Plato's standard candle. At least that's what I think this morning. And maybe I shouldn't have singled Pinsky out. Any one of a number of poets would have worked, I'm thinking. Coffee For All! -JG -------------------- JGallaher The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:46:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: "I WON TEN DOLLARS" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "I WON TEN DOLLARS" _for Jordan Davis_ Yeah, I won ten-dollars once, and a few certificates. I won a tool box too. What other prizes? I won a Smith's crisp competition, a mini-imac clock, movie tickets, shaving samples, etc etc. In addition, I won ten dollars for swimming in the fountain in the New Sculpture Garden. I won ten dollars in a foot race at work today. I remember when we used to rock. Behind the music, as if you cared. Oh yeah ... and then I won ten dollars from this teacher because he thought no one could name Milosevic's successor (geez, we're not THAT American) . --------->It's hard to look like a pro when you have to look up what a "straight" is. I won ten bucks though.<----------- I won ten dollars pulling on socks. Yeah, I won ten dollars at an amused snort. I won ten dollars from a scratch and that bought me a carton of cigs. Cigarettes are cheap-- "more monkeys." I won ten bucks once, for singing "Frosty the Snowman" /`-. .-/ / `._`./. <-----"before" /oo`..' . | =-| , \ \`'/ / `-:===/= ':\===:-' ' | ::8| ` |..::d8| \:d88/ / :q\ | .:d8| | .:d88| \::d888/ /`-. .-/ / `._`./. _ /oo`..'_ <-----"after" ._ __(-| =-| _ ) ,-;==== _ - ,. _-( __ ` ( --_ -_ =====:-.` `._________,' ` [continuation of poem proper] ... then I just didn't really have a good shift because of various things. THE END _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: snakespearean neopathic ur-sonnets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a d v a n c i e n c e s n a k e s p e a r e d http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/PRYDXL/and/kerplunk.php _metaphantom siternal_ Namin nealth Seque unknowalogies voil dialecedes enchandsome ches thinkinterplay shinin basease animan everal travy parate substile accurance serpeculate cularly kinterplay -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:26:14 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: chalres henri ford Chales Henri Ford died last nite..master of scenes..stein/surreal/beat/warhol...ad parnassum..DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:59:14 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: A.Word.A.Day--pangram MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII have great week-ends all! Subject: A.Word.A.Day--pangram pangram (PAN-gram, -gruhm, PANG-) noun A sentence that makes use of all the letters of the alphabet. [From Greek pan- (all) + -gram (something written).] Many typists know "The quick brown fox jumps over a lazy dog" as a thirty-three-letter sentence that employs every letter in the alphabet at least once. Now fix your eyes on a sampling of the best pangrams of even fewer letters. What you are about to see are meaningful sentences that avoid obscure words yet contain every letter of the alphabet: Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs. (thirty-two letters) Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz. (thirty-one) How quickly daft jumping zebras vex. (thirty) Quick wafting zephyrs vex bold Jim. (twenty-nine) Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud. (twenty-eight) Bawds jog, flick quartz, vex nymph. (twenty-seven) And now, wordaholics, logolepts, lexicomanes, and verbivores -- the Peter Pangram of all pangrams -- Mr. Jock, TV quiz Ph.D., bags few lynx. (twenty-six!) If you can come up with a twenty-six letter pangram that makes easy sense and does not resort to names, initials, or mutant words, please rush it to me at richard.lederer@pobox.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:26:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: walt howard Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WALT HOWARD TOLL BOOTH COLLECTOR #003 [excerpt] www.thescare.com Information Stakes mile quarter leadin into constructing generic parser here POV PMP Point MultiPoint Autonomous Underwater Vehicle when point intended movement Fraction live free shared library Sollid Optical Could Tell Then I'd Have Kill biweekly schedules reviews Pressurant me what could Humble Opinion say IBM Electronic CodeBook Autonomous Underwater Vehicle Nordic Gene Bank Switching Fabric Direct Labor win swore Humble Opinion stood Uninterruptible Power Supply poured Central Arizona Project USBR into Revolutions Per Minute linear drive unit Apple Remote Access forward edge battle area Data Above Voice IBM Electronic CodeBook pitched headlong from buckskin's Materials Control Verification Program Direct Labor Ascii Batch Transfer Hardware Standard Operating chronic daily intake Data Acquisition Frequency Table Livingstone thief Gate Assisted Turnoff Thyristor Installation Test when there no vestige lieutenant colonel Long-Duration Exposure Facility Jet Propulsion Laboratory California Institute Technology NASA Alternate Line pushed Can Look Up Microsoft Map Specification stooping International Convention Combat Decertification Berkeley Software Distribution Berkeley System Distribution Wind Tunnel Test stained-Revolutions Per Minute Strike Force however Anglo-American cataloging rules Environmental Sciences Division ORNL File Support Utility precisely Suffrage Network Management Vector Transport air combat maneuvering simulator field engineering rep individual plant examination acts NetView Performance Monitor Local Distributed Data Service then Simulation Mission Operation Computer into Terrestrial Planet Finder Validation Verification Acquisition Professional Development Council Humble Opinion wouldna say Strategic Environmental Program Mission Critical relating communications Flow Control Messages Image Earth Radiation Budget Satellite Technology Advanced Server demure tailored ship training availabilites Tuesday's Derived Medium access control Protocol Data Unit Versa Module Eurocard Humble Opinion inferred they wre meditated Electronics Instrumentation Division materials issued review report Diagnostics Online Bugs combat system manpower training steering committee Organizations Internet Group fault tree analysis offered solid state switch Mission Critical Hardware Standard Operating no stiller than Computer Science Technology Board There fast agarose gel electrophoresis I Communications Interface Coordinator government-owned contractor-operated on us Radio Magnetic Indicator unlearned International Conference on Software Engineering or Doppler beam swinging Acquisition Control Device Mallows Stedman then giving unter anderem other things Operational Test on implementations Security flight performance monitoring nuclear chemistry Media Environment Direct I'll User Interface System what I'll I'll tokamak fusion test reactor Approximation Register pma ac voltage right ways though dusty Corniche Science Technology Council Mission Critical addresses physical Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter IBM Fraction live International Celestial Reference System Language Presence Identity-out sequence Consulting Reference Designator So fast agarose gel electrophoresis me Flight Management Team restless Data Link-layer Service Access Point Engine Service Platforms crying before vacant there any Fragment Manager industrial fugitive process particulate Link Interface Realtime Publishing On Demand Power --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:45:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Speaker remnant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Speaker remnant Speaker fades in from Entry Point and joins you. Speaker says, "I'll be Alan's words ..." Speaker says, "Martin typing them ..." Speaker says, "One case which resulted in netsex that recuperated a Speaker says, "At times netsex can be completely overwhelming ... " Speaker says, "Part of it the 'command structure' ..." Speaker says, "The ASCII unconcoous ..." Speaker says, "ignore my spelling" Speaker says, ""I can't type half as fast as Alan, even though I do it Speaker says, "text emerges as parts of past, childhood ... interjections Speaker says, ""Part objects .." Speaker says, """The power of Netsex ... not trivial ..." Speaker says, "Joining subjects across the wall of language .." Speaker says, "defining ... truth ... idea of true speech and the genuine Speaker says, "primordial objectivity ... " Speaker says, "kant ..." Speaker says, "Questions about Kant ..." Speaker says, "A state of primitive fusion and confusion .." Speaker says, "Temptation of St Antoine .." Speaker says, "Cyberspatial buzzing .... huge amounts of ..." Speaker says, "Excretion's featured a few times ... not that zone ..." Speaker says, "not = note" Speaker says, "Confusions of identity .... @gender commands ..." Speaker says, "Control faction ... moviong backwards and forwards from Speaker says, "ss" Speaker says, "tremendous sexualisaion of the internet as a whole ..." Speaker says, "Most non-moderated spaces show this ..." Speaker says, "Sexualisation ... desires implicit just about everywhere Speaker says, "16 minutes ... 4 to go " Speaker says, "language loses its formal syntactic structure ..." Speaker says, "Raviushment becomes the unravelling of language..." Speaker says, "Woman he knew who would short out the keyboard with her Speaker says, "Streams of characters ..." Speaker says, "fbnu bgyf hgf hgf hf hgbfh jgthrjigbtrubigperhbubhuehtuig Speaker says, "Ah, tht's better." Speaker says, "cu-seeme is more uncanny and disturbing than y-talk ..." Speaker says, "Silence of cu-seeme ... uncanny ... uncomfortable ... Speaker says, "faces erupt in different direction .." Speaker says, "recognition ..." Speaker says, "didn't get to death on the internet ..." Speaker says, "Tomorrow: Michael Current's fdeath ..." Speaker says, "Thankyou ..." Speaker recieves applause .. Speaker says, "... cleaning up ..." Speaker says, ""Jerry asks about Kant ... Alan thought he meant something Speaker says, "It is." Speaker says, "carry sexuality beyond what happens in Alan's real life .." Speaker says, "as it becomes more real ... series of exchnages ..." Speaker says, "list ... priovate mail .. ." Speaker says, "more emotional .." Speaker says, "relationshiop ..." Speaker says, "phone call " Speaker says, "phone sex ..." Speaker says, "y-talk ..." Speaker says, "photos ..." Speaker says, "peices of hair ..." Speaker says, "souvenirs ..." Speaker says, "anything ..." Speaker says, "Small animals .." Speaker says, "Oh yes, panties ..." Speaker says, "That was a typo . ..." Speaker uses the word "coagulation" a lot ... Speaker says, "Question intimates that Jerry ta;ling and Alan typing was Speaker says, "like dria" Speaker licks Dria ever so slowly. Speaker says, "Richness of net.sex " Speaker says, "Turn off the computer ... left with own reflection in Speaker says, "Different movements ..." Speaker says, "y-talk is like two bodies separated by Speaker says, "Ari says even email is theatrical .." === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:17:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: I feel the hand In-Reply-To: <3D9474FE.A87035F7@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I feel the hand . . . basic kniefs voilent behavior hunting and riding in the field =20= scattered and winkled I feel the hand stop =20= telepathy between the child=92s heart between the heart = of=20 children between the the blood to thought conventions hold the=20= line and then back again light the background a replay=20= before another time perhaps in the garden a holy call to be=20 reborn I feel the hand the scream the battle ground in=20 the name of the apparent indifferent and chair the=20 memory is louder static drops down ten best mathematical=20 equations years in the making equestrian runabouts =20= prohibitions probabilities and attention to detail in a liquid form=20 that shifts the field I feel the hand I am that that =20 shivers to the touch rack or rock I dream of a time=20= not long ago a sample on magnetic tape on the steps bobbing=20= for apples fearing the possibility the sea will swallow enveloped in=20= a neat saddlebag thick pile carpet an arm releases the past =20= I feel the hand upon my shoulders in my mind inside and out =20= violent scattered and wrinkled the=20 child=92s heart stop I feel the hand . . .= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: FW: A.Word.A.Day--pungram MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit have great week-ends all! Subject: A.Word.A.Day--pungram pungram (PUN-gram, -gruhm, PUNG-) noun A sentence that makes use of all the letters of the alphabet, plus one world-class pun.. [From Greek pun- (play on words) + -gram (something written).] Many typists know "The quick brown fox jumps over a lazy dog" as a thirty-three-letter sentence that employs every letter in the alphabet at least once. Now fix your eyes on a sampling of the best pangrams of even fewer letters. What you are about to see are meaningful sentences that avoid obscure words yet contain every letter of the alphabet: Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs. (thirty-two letters) Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz. (thirty-one) How quickly daft jumping zebras vex. (thirty) Quick wafting zephyrs vex bold Jim. (twenty-nine) Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud. (twenty-eight) Bawds jog, flick quartz, vex nymph. (twenty-seven) Pungrams, of course, these are not. Those you will have to devise for yourselves. Bon appétit! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:42:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Did you mean: *important* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Re: SEVERE ALLERGY QUESTION ... both of these are very inprotant if he is allergic to latex and he goes to the hospital and is having a reaction to latex and they are using latex on him it ... www.healthboards.com/allergies/1685.html - 19k - Cached - Similar pages Re: Assessing Glen Ridge ... IS RWONG BECAUSE THERE ARE MANY PLEAPLE WHO LIVE IN GLEN RIDGE WHO DO NOT HAVE BIG FANMCY HOUSESE AND BUT I DO AGREE THAT SPORTS IS ONE OF THE MOST INPROTANT ... course1.winona.msus.edu/pjohnson/_disc11/00000026.htm - 4k - Cached resources ... Resources, Follow the links for information inprotant to the lesbian community. Email your suggestions. 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Mary ... www.dphhs.state.mt.us/dsd/govt_programs/vrp/vrs/ admin_info/GovCouncil/Finalmtgminutes0501.doc - Similar pages Louisiana Personals for dating singles ... and get married some day.So if you can relate to where I'm coming from then you are the one that I'm interested in talking to.Look's is'nt all thet inprotant ... www.lovecity.com/dates/males/male39-3-2.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages The Prank Institute - pranks for the prankless ... above 3 days of submiting = Beginer -> Gag Provider 6 days of submiting=Gag Provider -> Prankster 11 days of submiting=Prankster -> Caper Instigator Inprotant ... www.prank.org/userpage.php4?name=sneh_m2 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages The log from Autumnal Equinox ... we should take care of nature" butterfly says, "He had a lot of examples that jumped from one thing to another" dogman says, "the aticle is still inprotant ... damoo.csun.edu/logs/csun/Sp2k/098/mar16-fall.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages de_favo_site Wil jij ook een Website? Word dan lid van de Kinderlines Club! VERY INPORTANT! ! VERY INPROTANT! ! BINNENKORT IS HET ABBONNEMENT BIJ KINDERLINES AFGELOPEN. ... www.kinderlines.nl/de_favo_site/de_favo_site.index.asp - 10k - Cached - Similar pages Cambridge Underground 1996: Thailand et al ... Or, as the sign at the exit puts it: "This point in 06.00pm dailyday. The probably ten-thousand of bat fly out which the inprotant prenomenen."... ... www.chaos.org.uk/cucc/jnl/1996/thai.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages InfoCryption ... - Thomas Jefferson. (Find the puzzle in Print: Page 126 ). June 19, 2000. 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Both Lot's of Info was Lost in A Fier here in Ohio Plese E-Mail Me if you Can Help at peggykyle@hotmail.com I am doing a Family Tree for My Son It is Inprotant ... boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/message/ an/surnames.shiflett/93 - 22k - Cached _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:12:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Did you mean *important* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gambia's Improtant Numbers Page 1. THE INTERNET AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, WHY IT'S IMPROTANT TO YOU In the relatively short life of the Internet, believed by most experts to be 1987, this vast improtant role of musicians Re: Why is college so improtant IMPROTANT NEWS FLASH! If you have further questions, please dont hesitate to contact the synagogue office sorry there are no improtant polls at this moment, Welsh The Most Importent Immigrants Of America Very Importent!!!!! Although this story is TOTALLY FICTIONAL, it has a sad truth to it along with a very importent message. It a little bit off topic but importent for vdr. I started detecting that and began reinforcing my love for her always let her know how impirtant she was to me. The Ambassador often invited impirtant visitors to stay with him in his rented palace by the Neva. The mission to preserve and protect out national and cultural treasures is a very impirtant one. Uredinales are known to cause significant economic losses to many impirtant hard as hell to acknowledge responsibility at times like these, but I think it's really impirtant, especially when people start crying out for blood ASK AN IMPERTINANT QUESTION UNTIL YOU ARRIVE AT an impertinant style and attitude that makes our show different from anything else on impertinant aisha was chasing after a pack of cavebeasts, snapping her ears like a whip! Unheard of over again. Students that don't finish their homework. Their are more exited then before and more impertinant as well. So the plans editors wave at eager scribes, CMs remain holed up in State secretariats with folded hands, dreading the possibility of running into an impertinant reporter Ideally, the lowest (baseline) latency should be imperceptable, however relative latency could still be tested even if an imperceptable baseline is not possible weight of property, possess arms, and are too stromng a body of men to be openly offended (but) they may in twenty or thirty years be, by means imperceptable Another isthe minor modification of some or all pixels by imperceptable values. This minor modification makes its wielder imperceptable. Wielder cannot be seen or heard except by those characters possessing Because of the time scale on which these changes occur they will be imperceptable Together we chained pleasure and pain loved some, hurt some time's come to run from attachments and contentments comfortably impersipient best friends ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Free Spax Comix: The Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A blog is a "weblog" -- basically a place where people publish their thoughts, their favorite things on the web, stray this or thats. Free Space Comix: The Blog will have poems, what I'm reading, my latest articles, etc. Free Space Comix was the name of my first book. I've always wanted it to be made into a made-for-HBO movie starring Michael Douglas as the Korean deli store owner, but it never happened. So I've made it into a blog: www.arras.net/weblog/ It doesn't let you send in comments yet, but that future is a feature forthcoming. -- cheers -- sorry to spam you again -- I've been busy! Brian ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:39:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Molly Schwartzburg Subject: sonnet list available In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Listers--many thanks to everyone who responded to my sonnet query. I've compiled an alphabetical list of everything mentioned (about 50 poets, and many more titles) and will send it as a Word attachment to anyone who wants it--just backchannel me. best, Molly *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Did you mean *important* August 12, 1995 was an impotrant day of celebration, when two bells were consecrated, both a gift from Mr. Berty J. Koppelhuber from Germany. Beeing a royal highness is not so impotrant for me. The impotrant thing is to help the needy and listen to God and do want he wants me to do. I answered, In My Heart. I began to think of the heart, as it is one of the most impotrant organs in our body that if it stops functioning we stop to exist. Security at home is so impotrant beacause it give you tranquility. Yeah. Peace is the most impotrant thing we have, without it we would be lost. Chaos would rule our lands, and all hopes of our people would be gone. However number of new species is impotrant part of each birding trip on our excurtions we are more focused on observations of tooting. I think before we try to establish any sort of trust between the Palestinians and the Israeli's we must ourselves's the very impotrant question, HOW MUCH DO WE limit ourselves, without great ambitions, to an attempt whereby means of several thjeses we shall outline several more impotrant results ... but because we don't know ALL MATH involver, usually we deal with MOST IMPOTRANT for the process under consideration math. You are not an individual, you are one of many. You are not impotrant, the colony is important. You are insignificant. It is impotrant to be aware that however long your time, your funeral can be paid for at today's prices with the guarantee that no further charges will be made. IMPOTRANT: What will NOT work for the treatment of premature ejaculation: It is because pepsin in the stomach can deactivate enzyme that relases xeronine (most impotrant ingriedient that couse most healing effect) in intestine. We have used it for christamas presents, impotrant documents, etc. Basically everything! I do not use the anus and the penis. From this chakra four impotrant nadis emanate which appear as lotus petals to apply presented theories corrwctly to specific problem. Girls will laugh. Boys will even laugh. How could my parents play with the most impotrant part of my body? Axes upon the door. The Banner of The Wolf. The Human across from her was lost, but impotrant. The Wolf glared at her, circled her. The restaurant wavered. Impotrant was the position, assorted to us by time. In some other moment she would slowly kill me in the same innocent way. Today, I learned many impotrant attitude which we must do in talking to each other ... iportants, mportants, importate, mmportant, ipportant, imprrtant, imporaant, importnnt, importatt, miportant, ipmortant, imoprtant, improtant, impotrant ... not get the job. And this is just one out of million reasons why writing is impotrant and good for you. Having writing techniques ... sometimes it is eaisy to think that the music means something. Because no one have the strength to read anything I write, and since I don't have anything impotrant or interresting to write, You all just have to put up with meaning. You say, hey, this guy has an impotrant, strained voice. But, the question: "Is it not the case with every ideological production?" is the focal point and is much more impotrant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:19:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: sonnet list available In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes please Molly and thanks love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:48:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Subject: Re: sonnet list available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Molly: I would appreciate the list. Thanks, Bob Grotjohn Molly Schwartzburg wrote: > Listers--many thanks to everyone who responded to my sonnet query. I've > compiled an alphabetical list of everything mentioned (about 50 poets, and > many more titles) and will send it as a Word attachment to anyone who > wants it--just backchannel me. > > best, > Molly > > *** *** *** *** *** > Molly Schwartzburg > Doctoral Candidate > Department of English > Stanford University > Stanford, CA 94305 > 650-327-9168 > molly1@stanford.edu > *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clements Subject: Re: sonnet list available In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Molly, Many thanks for the offer of the list. I'm sure many of us would love to see it, and it would probably save you a lot of trouble just to post it. I'm sure no one will mind. Thanks again! Brian C -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Molly Schwartzburg Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 4:39 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sonnet list available Listers--many thanks to everyone who responded to my sonnet query. I've compiled an alphabetical list of everything mentioned (about 50 poets, and many more titles) and will send it as a Word attachment to anyone who wants it--just backchannel me. best, Molly *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:29:33 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: serious moby moment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I turned 50 this year and, being now senile, I need to relive the crux of past caught in music, and those damn confounding colours. so, here's the program, as it melts into my brow: can anyone share with me their energy, circa 1968? specifically, did you SEE Moby Grape perform live? can you say anything about Skip Spence? I'm seeing Einstein fucked up on acid, tears in the taste of freedom, and words gushing in light tomorrow couldn't prove. I want Moby info, or SF tinglings, or just something to see. this is a serious request within the Poetics network, of minds and the carrying people to just bug me with some new age. I got an idea waiting to happen. honest thanking moments await you if you reply. yours sincerely, Allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:57:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Tribute to June Jordan in WRB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The current (October) issue of Women's Review of Books features "Remembering June Jordan" in poems and remininscences by Marilyn Hacker and several others. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:31:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: did you mean "very insignificant" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT DO WE FEEL: A WORN GROOVES NOVEL Do we feel "forgotten" and stowed away in some obscure place where no one would give a thought about us--- do we feel very insignificant, just like the Velveteen Rabbit? To the east, hills (and the rising sun); to the south, hills; to the north, hills; to the west, hills (and the setting sun). A small Moravian garden. It is very small and very insignificant. So here I sit 2000 years later at my little computer, in my little room and I feel very insignificant and I feel hardly up to the challenge. It seems like I have every possible obstacle against being a real evangelizer. My testimony sure isn't fancy, and very insignificant compared to some that I have heard. When I was about 3 or 4, I went to junior church and heard the teacher give a lesson on hell, and why people went there. While this lesson wasn't fancy, and not geared for people who were intellectually advanced, it set an impression on my mind that I have never forgotten. It also forced me, at that time, to make a decision for Christ. I realized that I was a sinner, going to hell, in need of Salvation. First the very insignificant point. Pronouns for God are not capitalized in Arabic, Hebrew, or Greek, so why such a fuss for English, Jeremiah? There are very few things which are *not* insignificant; all your ordinary reactions, ordinary thoughts, sensations, actions, movements, - all this is very insignificant. I know that I am still very insignificant and tiny in the scheme of things, a very ordinary man with extremely limited knowledge! My very insignificant toes: I'm still not too sure how freaky it is to wake up one morning and realize that... you're disappearing? on purpose. So insignificant that I said if they ever had an extra looking for a new home they could send it here. Meanwhile, on an insignificant planet, in an insignificant solar system, in an insignificant and rather decrepit old warehouse, some very insignificant robots are starting an insignificant day in their insignificant lives. The nature of the exponential growth pattern is characterized by very insignificant growth at the front end and the dramatic growth towards the end of the cycle. Today I am very doubtful about the future of my life, which seems very very insignificant seeing as though half the world is struggling to survive, I am rich, I have a bed and blankets and clothes and tins of chickpeas and mountain bread. The executive pay portion of that is a very, very insignificant factor! ”The remarks,” GOP pollster Frank Luntz said, “were made on a very small, very insignificant cable channel.” "It affected a very, very insignificant number of people," she told me. Apparently, I was one of those insignificant people. Maybe you were, too. I suppose it's easy to think people are insignificant when all you see is their credit card numbers. The remuneration paid for, say, commenting on a social issue is very insignificant, and teaching time does not suffer. So, it should be all right that such activities need not be reported. However, some activities may demand a lot of working time. For instance, when an election is taking place, I may be required to spend a few days to do immediate analyses for the broadcast media. Since this will affect the class schedule, prior clearance from the University must be sought. Take these experiences and match them to even other experiences within this same lifetime. As you engage these memories, they will bring other memories; and by engaging these other memories, even other memories may be engaged; and as these memories are engaged, they will all blend together into a very small portion of your life, a very insignificant, so to speak, expression; for upon a whole, all expressions and experiences would be considered, in your terms, quite insignificant. Someone from a very humble, very insignificant household, on the strength of a very tenuous, very remote family connection. Take an Orienteering course. When you're lost in the woods, being unemployed will seem very insignificant. This will make him talk to himself, and he will realise he has a pants sense of humour, and thereby make him feel very insignificant. In Reply to: woopety doo posted by erik on November 09, 2001 at 18:50:06: : very insignificant and stupid but funny No...not funny...just stupid...like yourself really! This will make him talk to himself, and he will realise he has a pants sense of humour, and thereby make him feel very insignificant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:17:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: re more poem challenges MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT THE counTer-revolutionary project to resolve tHE crisis of moderniTy unfolded in tHE cenTuries of tHE enlighTenment, tHE primary Task of tHis EnlightenmenT was to dominate tHE idea of immanence... by consTructing a transcendental apparatus capable of disciplining a multitude of formally free subjects.... It was paramount to avoid tHE mulTitude 's being understood, a la Spinoza, in a direct, immediate relation with divinity and nature as tHE eTHical producEr of life and THE world. On THE conTrary, in every case mediation Had to bE imposed on THE complexiTy of Human rElaTions.... HEnce THE Triad ... strengtH-dEsire-love ... as opposed by a Triad of specific mediations. Nature and experience are unrecognizable except tHrough *thE filTer of pHEnomena*; human knowledge cannoT be acHiEved excepT tHrough *thE reflecTion of tHE inTellect*; and tHE eTHical world is incommunicablE excepT tHrough thE *schemaTism of reason*. WHat is at play is a sort of wEak Transcendence, wHich rElaTivizes experience and abolisHEs every insTance of tHE immediaTe and absolute in Human lifE and hisTory.... because claiming tHat humans could immEdiaTely establisH thEir freedom would be a subversive delirium. (From *Empire*, HardT and Negri, pp. 78-79 originally posted by Joe Safdie, "SometHing to think about," Mon, 2 SEp 2002). THanks, JoE, I gave iT some tHought. DEdicaTed to Marcel Duchamps’s poem beginning tHE. WhaT would you do if you didn’t do it? Write a poem about it -- *as if it isn't* (don't forget: no, you *didn't* do it). Space for poem: none. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:28:05 -0400 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: more poem challenges MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << What would you do if you won ten dollars? >> I am the economically extracted principle that occurs when ten dollars is spent after being relocated from Jordan Davis' metropolitan statistical area to some other place in the world. While I currently am out of the office, because it is Friday, sometime around monday I will need the loot, probably around lunchtime. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:15:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Molly Schwartzburg Subject: Get yer sonnet list here! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Well, I got flooded with requests for the sonnet list, so I'm just going to post it here instead--sorry, you won't get the benefit of my snazzy MSWord italics and all, but here it is, with random short annotations from people's e-mails in some cases. --Molly Anderson, Beth, Hearsay Sonnets Andrews, Bruce Sonnets (Memento Mori) Ashbery, Shadow Train (12-line stanza cycle=D1though Ashbery says was not intended as sonnet sequence per se) Baratier, David, Estrella=D5s PopheciesI, The Fortune Begins (Runaway Spoon 2002); Estrella=D5s Prophecies II, An American Fortune (Anabasis/Extant, 2002); Estrella=D5s Prophecies III: Estrella Takes Manhattan (Luna Bisonte Prods, 2002, illus. Lance King); Fall of Because (Pudding House 1999) Behrle, Jim Berrigan, Anselm, Zero Star Hotel (Edge Books) Berrigan, Ted The Sonnets (Burroughts-derived cutup method) Berryman, John, Dream Sonnets Belvins, Richard, High Season from PSP selected Boar, Gerard (Ebbe Borregaard) Sketches for 13 Sonnets (Berkeley: Oyez 1969) Borkhuis, Charles, Hypnogogic Sonnets (Red Dust Books, 2002) Bishop, John Peale, =D2A Recollection=D3 (c.1930 sonnet with acrostic =D2Fu= ck yourh alfa ss) Coolidge, Clark, =D2by a I,=D3 Space; =D2Bond Sonnets=D3 from Insect Trust= ; =D2Lovecraft Sonnets=D3 on EPC page Clarke, John In the Analogy (Shuffaloff Press; 6 books of 40 sonnets each, and 4 sonnets from 7th book; a =D2Blake/Olson explorer=D3) Davidson, Ian, new collection of 14 lines poems from Spectacular Diseases, London Denby, Edwin Collected Poems (includes sonnet sequence about traveling in Italy) Gardner, David, =D2Postmodern Mutations of the Sonnet Form: Exploring works by Ted Berrigan, Anselm Hollo, Bernadette Mayer, and Juliana Spahr=D3 (MFA thesis, Naropa) Gould, Henry Island Road (99 quasi-sonnets, in print and at www.unf.edu/mudlark [issue 6]) Guest, Barbara Hacker, Marilyn, Love, Death and the Changing of the Seasons (a novel in sonnets) Hocquard, Emmanuel A Test of Solitude Hollander, John, =D2Powers of Thirteen=D3 (13 line, 13 syllables each sequence. See also his actual sonnets) See also his essay =D2The Poem in the Eye,=D3 Vision and Resonance Hollo, Anselm, Not a Form at all but a State of Mind in Corvus (Coffee House Press 1995); Rue Wilson Monday (U New Mexico, 2000); =D2Guests of Space=D3 in Conjunctions 35 (Bard, 2000); So the Ants Made it to the Cat Food (Samizdat Editions 2001) Howe, Susan The Europe of Trusts has a sonnet-sequence-like feel Hoover, Paul, Nervous Songs (L=D5Eperview Press) some reprinted in Totem an= d Shadow (Talisman House 1999) Keane, Jayne Fenton, Slamming the Sonnet Knott, Bill (sonnets scattered throughout his books) Lehto, Leevi, sonnets in finnish: http://www.leevilehto.net/default.asp?a=3D3&b=3D1 Magee, Mike=D1hip-hoppy treatments of poems by George Herbert etal, frequently in sonnet form Mayter, Bernadette, Sonnets McKinney, Josh, Saunter (U of GA, 2002); includes 35 =D2fractured=D3 sonnet= s (curtal or =D4bobtail=D5 sonnets as developed by Hopkins) Mohammed, Kasey Silem =D2The Dopes=D3 (chapbook of 20 14 line poems, in pseudo-elevated register, about things like oiled wooden squirrels, discarded raisins and Maoists) Moore, Merril, M (a thousand sonnets, at http://www.ncteamericancollection.org/litmap/moore_merrill_tn2.htm) Mullen, Harryette, Sleeping with the Dictionary (selections) O=D5Hara, Frank, A City Winter (early sonnet sequence) Padgett, Ron., =D2Nothing in that Drawer,=D3 _Great Balls of Fire=D3 (consi= sts of the title repeated fourteen times) Queneau, Raymond, _Mille Million de Sonnets=D3 Ratcliffe, Stephen, Idea=D5s Mirror (not recognizable as sonnets but inspired by Michael Raworth, Tim Eternal Sections (Los Angeles: Sun and Moon 1993) Rollinson, Damian Judge, http://www.people.virginia.edu/~djr4r/pomes.html Drayton=D5s cycle=D1visually quite strikingly experimental) Satanovsky, Igor, re-editings of Shakespeare=D5s sonnets 1-6 at http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/Blaze2/poetry.htm Seth, Vikram, The Golden Gate (sonnet sequence novel) Shurin, Aaron, Involuntary Lyrics (last word in each line of each poem is same as last word in corresponding line of Shakespeare=D5s sonnets) Spahr, Juliana, =D2Power Sonnets=D3 (chapbook; one consists of phrases of a Rolling Stone interview with Korn) Valentine, Jean, Pilgrims and other early work Weelwright, John, Mirrors of Venus: A Novel in Sonnets (1914-1938) Reprinted in Collected Poems Wright, Laura, Where Hunger is a Place, 14 Sonnets (Last Minute Productions, Boulder 1997) *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: c merges In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable c merges it=92s in the thick folds those durable plaster regions =20= manifolds manufactured departments of a gentler realm =20 baskets of pretense someone points out a simgle tree grass=20 lands in a box the top is dribbling down the turret over flows=20= half and out of the edges spurs immaculate language =20= weaving syntax a host of other conversations wait to be heard =20= a little further away the weather gets fuzzy the moon shakes=20= off a distance the violin recoils there's something else =20= something's on hold letters drop is visible than not =20= each corner has a reliance satcitananda rage as terra cotta=20= the matter gets its full then shifts s proceed=20 towards valhalla ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bernard Waldrop Subject: new from Burning Deck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Burning Deck is pleased to announce volume 16 of SERIE D'ECRITURE (current =46rench writing in English translations): ESTHER TELLERMANN Mental Ground translated from the French by Keith Waldrop poem, 80 pp., offset, smyth-sewn, original paperback (ISSN 0269-0179) ISBN 1-886224-54-4 $10 All Esther Tellermann's poetry - from the first line of her first=20 book: "time had the slowness of not-yet-asleep" - is an ongoing=20 hermetic journal of travels, possibly to real places, but certainly=20 to "the mind's other country." It takes the reader on an impossible=20 quest for meaning, for the ideal, for the elusive "central point"=20 where we would be one with the world. The poetry is, in itself, an=20 extraordinary answer to its own question: "how live/ in the ordinary?" Esther Tellermann was born in Paris in 1947. She is an agr=E9g=E9 of=20 letters and teaches in Paris, where she also works as a=20 psychoanalyst. Flammarion has published her five books of poetry:=20 Premi=E8re apparition avec =E9paisseur (1986), Trois plans inhumains=20 (1989), Distance de fuite (1993), Pang=E9ia (1996) and Guerre extr=E8me=20 (1999) from which "Mental Ground" [Terre mentale] is taken. Encre=20 plus rouge is forthcoming in 2003. She is currently working on a=20 novella and serving on the editorial board of the psychoanalytical=20 revue La C=E9libataire. Keith Waldrop's new book of poems,The House Seen from Nowhere is just out= from the new Litmus Press (E. Tracy Grinnell, 97 Summit St. #3, Brooklyn,= NY 11231; etgrinn@earthlink.net. 230pp.,$15). Distributors: Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710; 1-800/869-75= 53 orders@spdbooks.org Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Rd., Peterborough, Cambs. PE2 9BS, UK ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: IMPOTENT/IMPOTANT/IMPORTEN/EMPORTANT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Worlds Most Outrageous Band the IMPOTENT SEA SNAKES will be starring in the full length feature DVD concept movie entitled: " NYMPHODIZIAC " the band- known for such appearances has been seen on HBO's Real Sex, The Best Of Real Sex, Sex Bytes and Playboy's Sexcetera series promise to shock and entertain their fans with this cutting edge performance art piece. Combining actual live performance and an intriguing storyline... -that is sure to put you on the edge of your seat. We follow The Impotent Sea Snakes on a roller-coaster ride as they fight for their right- and yours- for freedom of speech and expression! With elements of tongue in cheek comedy, kung-fu, international spies & a maniacal tele-vangalist trying to stop The Impotent Sea Snakes from casting their spell of sex + rock and roll. You will see appearances by Impotent Sea Snakes fans... ! Iggy Pop & a co-starring roll from adult film legend Ron Jeremy ! You will also see starring roles from AVN multi-award winner Mike South + XXX hot vixen Cori Love. many more faces will be seen, such as: Vanessa Ives- Bart Hansard + Jason Sheffield + Bill Murphey Mistress Zadora Dare + Mystery Danille + Todd Kelly + Pat Briggs " NYMPHODIZIAC " is guaranteed to stimulate the hearts, minds & bodies of its viewers. " NYMPHODIZIAC " will take its effect on the public with its worldwide debut in !! JULY 2002 !! At its worldwide premier in Atlanta. The Impotent Sea Snakes, Cori Love, Mike South along with the Jagermeister Girls- will be on hand ( who will be sharing samples of fine elixer with you, their fans ). TWISTED PRODUCTIONS promises that " NYMPHODIZIAC " WILL BE ONE OF THE MOST TALKED ABOUT FILMS OF THE NEW MILLENIUM Once more a question already raised comes back. Mr. Podles's work, let us grant, has much more than theological relevance. We now have a good argument that anthropology and psychology journals should address The Church Impotent. But why The Mises Review? At last, we can fully respond. A Thai man suffering from impotence has chopped off his penis with a meat cleaver. Bangkok police say the 49-year-old asked his doctor to arrange an amputation because of his impotence. The doctor advised Jaruwat Techawachayanun to seek help for the condition at another clinic. He refused. Witnesses say they saw him rest his penis on a stone and chop it off. He then threw it in a bin. A witness picked it out, packed it in ice and phoned police. Officers took him to hospital. It is not known if it can be reattached. Witness Tongdee Kongsombat told the Thai Daily News: "I saw a man pull up outside my house in a pick-up truck. "The man caught my attention because when he got out of the truck he had a towel wrapped around his waist and a meat cleaver in his hand. "He walked down a side street, sat down, rested his penis on a large stone and with three chops severed it completely." The witness retrieved it from the bin and called police who found Mr Techawachayanun sitting in his truck bleeding heavily. For in Britain the head of state supplies no alibi for the people who matter, the elected politicians. There is no confusion: no double-rivalled mandate, as in cohabitational France; no chance of semi-interference by the semi-impotent but elected presidents of, say, Ireland or Germany; none of the transience of the elected heads of other states, nor of the claim they or their parties might make to a piece of the action. For the Queen has no right to action. The one time she used her prerogative to settle something, after Harold Macmillan's retirement in 1963, she followed the advice of ministers. These days, with parties electing their leaders, even this vestigial power would seem to be extinct. how do people get impotant places in the titan clan?? Hardy vill stoppa importen A brothel for impotent men (0) There is a unique brothel in the Japanese city of Osaka - the brothel for impotent men. The brothel is owned by two brothers - Takeo and Kanebo Isida. They say that their brothel helped a lot of men to get rid of their complexes, some of them even managed to get their man power back. Being the ex wife of a arsanist, I no how emportant it is to catch people starting fires. Kids need to learn fire is not a toy, it is a harmfull threat not only to people but to animals and even themselfs. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Letters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Two stores on a street; one in business, the other for lease. C A picture in a wallet, in a jail house, a balloon, light years ago. G A shoe travels across the room at 9.8m/s^2 I forgot your hand and now forget my head. H Mad book on a shelf, sad book on the floor open and letting sheets go with the gale. J Cup of water and its condensation; each sweats each other, is the other & lets each be. J2 Dance for my camera on one dark Strasse; you leap: your arms and legs mark an X. K Her life a movie feeling and you: blank billboard peeling outside the theater. M You raving twin are the blackest raven, the hardest block. I tore up my name tag in your kindergarten. N A pile of cash: you were the stash and the maiden hiding her moustache. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:59:29 -1000 Reply-To: Bill Luoma Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: zamphyre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1: ::Init I will use name servers: 1: 128.143.2.7 1: 128.143.22.119 1: 128.143.3.7 4: HttpResponseValidator::VSL response code: 200 4: HttpBodyReaderFactory::Create Response, transfer-encoding: chunked 4: HttpReader::Read returning: 15393 read: 15393 bytes from: 216.239.51.86:80 in: 0.071918 s 4: ::ParseGoogleNewsLinks start s.size() is: 15046 4: ::GoogNParser found chunk:

Microsoft PPTP Bu ffer Overflow; VPNs Vulnerable
Slashdot - 9 hours ago
4: ::GoogNParser found anchor: a href=http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/27/1747210.shtml?tid=109>Microsoft PPTP Buffer Ov erflow; VPNs Vulnerable 4: ::CleanHtml after: 1 passes: Microsoft PPTP Buffer Overflow; VPNs Vulnerable 4: ::CleanHtml after: 554 passes: br>>>Slashdot> - 9 hours ago>>>^@http:^@^@^@w.in^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^A^@^@^@v^@^@^@v=276a href=http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/27/1747210.shtml?tid=109>Microsoft PPTP Buffer Overflow; VPNs Vulnerable>^@;^@^@^@9sp;1^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^ @^@^@^@^@^L^@^@^@ ^LTherslashdot.org^@ a ^@^@^@0^@^@^@^@^@^] ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^]^^^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^D^@^@^@^D ^@b^@^]^^@out^@^@^@c^@^@^@^@^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^G^@^@^@^Gwarnhttp://^@^@^@^@(^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^]^Z ^@^@^@^B^@^@^@^@http^@^]^U@ww.c^@^@^@iterw^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ ^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@;^@^@^@;es/shttp://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/27/17 47210.shtml?tid=109^@anet^@^@^D^Aen t^@^]^Z(^@ ^@^@^U^@^]^^@^@^@F^@^]^^^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@1>>ComputerWorld> - 9 hours ago>>>By David Legard, IDG News Service. A flaw in Microsoft Corp.'s Point-to-Point> Tunneling Protocol (PPTP) used to secure virtual private >...> >>>>VPN flaw exposes internal networks>>>>ZDNet> - 19 hours ago>>>A suspected vulnerability in Microsoft's popul ar virtual private networking application> discovered Thursday could, if confirmed, leave corporate intranets open >...> >>>>VPN flaw puts internal networks at risk>>>>ZDNet, UK> - 22 hours ago>>>A suspected vulnerability in Mic rosoft's virtual private networking application> may allow hackers to penetrate into comp^@^]^V^Xs' i^@^@^@Ynal ^@^@^@^@^@^]^Up^@^]^T^@^WH^@^@^@P^@^]^Z^@^] ^@^@^@<80>^@^W^@^@^@^@^@^W@^@^W@^@^W(^@^@^@^@^@7/1^@ ^@^A^@^@^]^Z^@^]ESC^@^@^]^^=109^@-s212 29^@^@^@Y0.ht^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@(^@ ^@^@(t ri/articles/02/09/27/1747210.shtml?tid= 109^@>ZDNet,^@^@^D^Ap;UK^@^@^@P^@^@^@^U^@^@^@^W^@^@^@F^@^@^@w^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^ @ ago>>>A suspected vulnerability in Microsoft 's virtual private networking application> may allow hackers to penetrate into companies' internal networks. >...> >>>>VPN flaw puts internal networks at risk>>>>TechCentral, Malaysia> - 26 Sep 2002>>>A suspected vulnerabi lity in Microsoft's popular virtual private networking application> discovered Thursday could, if confirmed, leave corporate intranets open >...> >>>>> >> 278 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^@^@^@<80>nt>>>>> 0 ^@ground^@^Por:#^@^@^@^@ef} ^@^]><88>olor^@^]^^0033^@^@^@ct-si^@^D^@^@^@^@MX^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^A^@^@^@/^@^@^@/a,.aMicrosoft PP TP Buffer Overflow; VPNs Vulnerable^@gin-top:^@^@^N} .n^@^]<8C>ont-^@^]^:10p^@^@^@^@olor^@^@^@^@0} .n .i{font-size:10pt; font-weight:bold} .q a:visited,.q a:link,.q a:active,.q {text-decoration: none; color: #00c;} .b{font-size: 12pt; color:#00c; font-weight:bold} .ch{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand} .s, .s:link, .s:visited, .s a:link{color:#000000; text-decoration:none} .d,.d a:visited,.d a:link, .d a:hover,.d a:active{font-weight:bold;color:#000} .d {cursor:pointer;cursor:hand} //--> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:45:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 1000 character classic cinema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1000 character classic cinema there is always a vacancy ... as if a thousand motion-picture projectors were all going at once ... as if a thousand screens were dissolving simul- taneously several thousand already dead, but excuse me - the applause from an audience of thousands - her staring is uncanny, almost as if applause from an audience of thousands, degradation beyond thousands, degradation beyond you, fear sexual freedom more than from an audience of thousands - your understanding of revolution depends on applause from an audience of thousands. they dead foundations thousand character classic. terms utilized: kindness womenservants restored thousand reproved prayed healed fast wombs nothing. thousand. is to world renounce not world world. world. thousands of millions of hundreds of thousands of eighty-four thousands of tens of thousands of hundreds of eighty-four thousands of millions of hundreds of and tens of thousands of eighty-four hundreds of millions. if there is one thin wire, there are thousands in these matters, thousands of thin wires: think of them, each labeled and very long. eight hundred sixty-two thousand. six hundred forty-two thousand. seven thousand. ten-thousandths. twenty-seven thousand. eight thousand. five hundred forty-four thousand. seven thousand. ten-thousandths. === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:46:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: nonprinting character impromptu Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:12:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: antennae - issue 3 now available (please forward) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANTENNAE 3 september 2002 poems by brian strang / mark salerno / lyn hejinian / spencer selby / sheila murphy / bob harrison / laynie browne / music or performance scores by mark booth / jennifer walshe / amnon wolman / gerhard stäbler / Single copies are $6, two-issue subscriptions are $12. North American subscriptions outside the US, please add $3. Other foreign subscriptions, please add $5. Payable to Jesse Seldess at 851 N Hoyne Ave. #3R, Chicago, IL 60622. E-mail: j_seldess@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 07:43:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: LUNCHTIME IN THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LAB Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Love in the heady hours of daylight savings time always works out. Then I saw her face; now I'm a believer! Sunshine in the off-season learns the pre-meditated delight of playing about her dappled shoulders. For dry skin, especially around the elbow regions, birds suddenly appear. The slit throat of the sun winnows with washing darkness from the scrubs of fences. The poet, along with his American humming-bird (sheltered in a cage from the ferocity of autumn) wallows in rain the size and softness of her belly; something he always thought possible but only read about previously in album reviews in Rolling Stone. This column of text is reminiscent of her bed. It dribbles down the page, much like creamed corn tricks the corners of an invalid's mouth into twitching. A tour-de-force in pure noise, heroic land music populates an abstract region somewhere between statehood and fast food. The comfort of it is astonishing! The poet, sheltered from the ferocity of a cage of gilded time-and-a-half, flutters her wings so quickly they're invisible to the unaided eye. The glasses surgically embed beams of science fiction in her eyes, still scanning the sky for import into photoshop. After the catharsis of their last collaboration, the poet and his exponential bird blast off this time for saving daylight in a jar, which, frozen, can seem both imposing and ridiculous in this light. A bottle of hours is opened in their silver space-ship. But robots never need lotion. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:49:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: A Thought Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The tug of conscience comes down to this: instead of having less than you need, you have more to give than you thought. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:08:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: word bodies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Word Bodies: poetry on and beyond the page Sewn Texts by Kathy Kuehn Handmade books, trade books, video, audio, & more by Charles Alexander October 9 =96 November 3, 2002 Opening Reception Wednesday, October 9, 4:30 - 6:00 pm Artists' talk, 5pm Poetry Reading by Charles Alexander, 6:30 pm Peppers Art Gallery University of Redlands 1200 East Colton Avenue P.O. Box 3080 Redlands, CA 92373-0999 co-sponsored by the Creative Writing Program at University of Redlands Please call (909) 793-2121 for driving directions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:35:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: sign online In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" there's now a link to sign on line: http://www.listenforpeace.org/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Wno told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers/ To stay home that day.. neo-hodo blax-fascismo strikes again...SUNY full tenured prof.....state poet of N.J....establishment evil & hatred...& from the self-hating Jewish Poet..Gerald Stern.."I thought it was important for the black community to get recognition"...thus pushed for Baraka...neo-hodo-blax-fascismo.. all heil Amiri...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:54:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: looking for fiction group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know of a fiction writers' or novelists' group looking for new members in NYC? I'm seeking one out. backchannel betsyandrews@yahoo.com. thanks. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:59:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Electronic Poetry Review #4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_3b.2d1ca0ee.2ac76428_boundary" --part1_3b.2d1ca0ee.2ac76428_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_3b.2d1ca0ee.2ac76428_boundary Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3C3E1148; boundary="=======1FF05983=======" --=======1FF05983======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3C3E1148; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Electronic Poetry Review #4 The editors of Electronic Poetry Review are pleased to announce the=20 publication of the October 2002 issue, which is now on our site at=20 http://www.poetry.org . We are grateful to the writers and artists who have contributed to the=20 making of EPR 1-4, and we hope you like the new issue (we've added a new=20 search option, as well as a "previous issues" link, both of which should=20 make it easier to find work in back issues). If you have questions or comments about the journal, or if you would like=20 to be added to or removed from our mailing list, please write to us at=20 epr@uiowa.edu . Sincerely, Katherine Swiggart and D.A. Powell, Editors Mary L. Wang, Book Review Editor Emily Johnston, Technical Editor Electronic Poetry Review #4 Essay by Ron Silliman / The Desert Modernism Interview with Bob Perelman / by Nagy Rashwan and Nicholas Zurbrugg Poems by Volker Braun / translated by Cecilia and Matthew Rohrer New poetry by: Matthew Cooperman, Mark Doty, Clayton=20 Eshleman, Rigoberto Gonz=E1lez, Saskia Hamilton, Matthea=20 Harvey, Christine Hume, Rachel Loden, Sheila Murphy, Bob=20 Perelman, Elizabeth Robinson, Tim Seibles, Cole Swensen, Tom=20 Thompson, Susan Wheeler (with art by April Gornik), Sam White, and=20 Rachel Zucker (a collaborative work with Lynn Heitler). Book Reviews: (New book by =B7 Reviewed by) Rae Armantrout =B7 Fred Muratori // Joel Chace =B7 David Berg-Seiter // Norm= a=20 Cole =B7 Patrick F. Durgin // Duo Duo =B7 Kazim Ali // Heather Fuller =B7 Ke= n=20 Rumble // Katy Lederer =B7 Paul Stephens // Sarah Manguso =B7 Charlotte Man= del=20 // Wallace Mark and Steven Marks =B7 Ken Rumble // Cate Marvin =B7 Aaron Bel= z=20 // Kevin Prufer =B7 Rob Dennis // Mary Ann Samyn =B7 Lynn Domina // Juliana=20 Spahr =B7 Chris McCreary // Liz Waldner =B7 Chris Pusateri --=======1FF05983======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3C3E1148 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --=======1FF05983=======-- --part1_3b.2d1ca0ee.2ac76428_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:55:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: sleepless night impromtu Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7O-=B7v-=B7M-=B7D-=B7L-=B7\-= =B7X-=B7M-=B7s-=B7$-=B7"-=B7\-=B7 =3D-=B7D-=B7 }-=B7U-=B7{-=B7"-=B7z-=B7`-=B7{-=B7%-=B7h-=B7F-=B7u-=B7"-=B7l-=B7 --=B7V-=B7c-=B7#-=B7R-=B7G-=B7)-=B7S-=B7P-=B7 ?-=B7y-=B7l-=B7}-=B7s-=B7=3D-=B7X-=B7S-=B7n-=B7j-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7?-=B7o-=B7|-=B7o-=B7k-=B7A-=B7=3D-=B7$ K-=B7'-=B7t-=B7s-=B7n-=B7P-=B7f-=B7+-=B7(-=B7#-=B7N-=B7C-=B7I-=B7o-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7m-=B7T-=B7?-=B7 ~-=B7h-=B7n-=B7N-=B7d-=B7 &-=B7J-=B7N-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7 =20 Z-=B7w-=B7y-=B7Z-=B7S-=B7y-=B7b-=B7c-=B7o-=B7V-=B7\-=B7L-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7X-=B7~-=B7y-=B7 t-=B7y-=B7n-=B7v-=B7C-=B7_-=B7r-=B7b-=B7S-=B7G-=B7/-=B7 =20 w-=B7 A-=B7d-=B7M-=B7F-=B7p-=B7{-=B7a-=B7M-=B7k-=B7,-=B7 \-=B7 w-=B7[-=B7]-=B7J-=B7E-=B7o-=B7O-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7G-=B7A-=B7i-=B7&-=B7Q-=B7/-=B7\-=B7)-=B7F-=B7V-=B7= =3D-=B7 "-=B7 ^-=B7H-=B7v-=B7_-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7J-=B7f-=B7L-=B7{-=B7v-=B7h-=B7~-=B7a-=B7)-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7#-=B7E-=B7E-=B7 &-=B7 =20 R-=B7O-=B7N-=B7Z-=B7Q-=B7.-=B7Z-=B7N-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7K-=B7x-=B7t-=B7.-=B7 ^-=B7"-=B7J-=B7q-=B7~-=B7s-=B7C-=B7_-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7!-=B7(-=B7,-=B7p-=B7p-=B7.-=B7"-=B7?-=B7F-=B7b-=B7= "-=B7X-=B7{-=B7S-=B7/-=B7#-=B7 o-=B7h-=B7w-=B7o-=B7p-=B7D-=B7D-=B7_-=B7e-=B7J-=B7'-=B7a-=B7Y-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7R-=B7R-=B7$-=B7O-=B7)-=B7 =20 u-=B7+-=B7Y-=B7&-=B7d-=B7 y-=B7'-=B7=3D-=B7u-=B7P-=B7/-=B7 D-=B7d-=B7\-=B7y-=B7!-=B7m-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7G-=B7L-=B7g-=B7Y-=B7h-=B7 '-=B7B-=B7W-=B7u-=B7M-=B7|-=B7O-=B7q-=B7$-=B7!-=B7.-=B7 m-=B7z-=B7 ^-=B7@-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7`-=B7M-=B7 [-=B7 @-=B7g-=B7&-=B7I-=B7u-=B7A-=B7X-=B7\-=B7 Q-=B7 =20 (-=B7 H-=B7`-=B7m-=B7?-=B7/-=B7H-=B7G-=B7--=B7#-=B7--=B7 k-=B7l-=B7G-=B7d-=B7]-=B7m-=B7F-=B7s-=B7 {-=B7M-=B7A-=B7r-=B7)-=B7?-=B7w-=B7 A-=B7^-=B7P-=B7t-=B7z-=B7c-=B7m-=B7 "-=B7.-=B7 }-=B7)-=B7 ,-=B7|-=B7q-=B7#-=B7$-=B7F-=B7G-=B7K-=B7h-=B7c-=B7r-=B7B-=B7z-=B7C-=B7l-=B7= F =20 |-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7h-=B7D-=B7 S-=B7k-=B7O-=B7|-=B7 ^-=B7Q-=B7m-=B7[-=B7+-=B7h-=B7a-=B7j-=B7Q-=B7M-=B7E-=B7G-=B7{-=B7X-=B7Z-=B7= n-=B7 H-=B7n-=B7r-=B7k-=B7?-=B7k-=B7H-=B7g-=B7 %-=B7 j-=B7\-=B7d-=B7%-=B7d-=B7 M-=B7x-=B7C-=B7Q-=B7N-=B7?-=B7 B-=B7C-=B7\-=B7 I-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7~-=B7U @-=B7 B-=B7 J-=B7Z-=B7f-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7 ^-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7,-=B7j-=B7Q-=B7f-=B7g-=B7O-=B7r-=B7%-=B7,-=B7D-=B7= =20 e-=B7!-=B7--=B7(-=B7(-=B7m-=B7W-=B7 P-=B7t-=B7l-=B7\-=B7--=B7Q-=B7x-=B7g-=B7Z-=B7g-=B7(-=B7v-=B7~-=B7m-=B7'-=B7= t-=B7!-=B7'-=B7n-=B7=3D-=B7; =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7X-=B7]-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7A-=B7J-=B7l-=B7Q =20 d-=B7I-=B7i-=B7Q-=B7E-=B7&-=B7\-=B7H-=B7l-=B7[-=B7C-=B7 ,-=B7D-=B7k-=B7k-=B7z-=B7$-=B7S-=B7z-=B7$-=B7W-=B7@-=B7p-=B7X-=B7F-=B7x-=B7= h-=B7$-=B7 w-=B7z-=B7 R-=B7I-=B7J-=B7 #-=B7w-=B7(-=B7B-=B7q-=B7}-=B7T-=B7[-=B7X-=B7 t-=B7t-=B7!-=B7@-=B7 v-=B7j-=B7 K-=B7i-=B7X w-=B7p-=B7[-=B7Z-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7p-=B7=3D-=B7M-=B7]-=B7@-=B7t-=B7h-=B7{-=B7~-=B7J= -=B7f-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7n-=B7 z-=B7z-=B7C-=B7x-=B7X-=B7$-=B7M-=B7 N-=B7r-=B7Q-=B7i-=B7p-=B7* =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7!-=B7Y-=B7x-=B7k-=B7s-=B7T-= =B7/-=B7r-=B7 P-=B7V-=B7j-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7(-=B7+-=B7(-=B7 ^-=B7/-=B7K-=B7"-=B7p-=B7)-=B7g-=B7O-=B7s-=B7k =20 U-=B7|-=B7.-=B7y-=B7 n-=B7p-=B7J-=B7 v-=B7"-=B7F-=B7V-=B7{-=B7f-=B7K-=B7 =3D-=B7_-=B7h-=B7E-=B7G-=B7d-=B7m-=B7N-=B7%-=B7U-=B7 =20 '-=B7X-=B7{-=B7C-=B7 `-=B7P-=B7v-=B7\-=B7@-=B7 F-=B7Z-=B7k-=B7 h-=B7O-=B7 =BB=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8=A8-=B7z-=B7V-=B7V-=B7m-=B7n-=B7v-=B7?-=B7E-=B7T-=B7 ]-=B7W =20 =20 =20 U-=B7"-=B7S-=B7B-=B7 h-=B7k-=B7 W-=B7{-=B7{-=B7L-=B7,-=B7 E-=B7L-=B7Z-=B7+-=B7s-=B7!-=B7L-=B7 ?-=B7N-=B7 =20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Thirteen Ways of Looking at *like so important* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thirteen Ways of Looking at *like so important* I. Living With The Land ... dinosaurs were like. So important are these discoveries that an Australian dinosaur recently made it onto the cover of Time magazine. ... 203.49.108.37/manhood.nsf/8178b1c14b1e9b6b8525624f0062fe9f/ a5f038e64c4bed184a256a74003ecb18!OpenDocument - 20k - Cached - Similar pages 2. Newman Reader - Mozley's Letters & Correspondence of Newman 2-9 ... I am quite sick at the thoughts of having the 'British Critic,' but there was no one else, and I did not like so important a work to get into hands I could not ... www.newmanreader.org/biography/ mozley/volume2/file9.html - 75k - Cached - Similar pages 3. And They Called It Monkey Love ... receiver. "Brenda is going down, man. Dylan's dad is, like, so important to him. Major miscalculation.". Erik shook his head, and sighed. ... www.rightthisway.net/world/monkeylove.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages 4. Sparks The album "Interior Design" was not success, but I like "So Important" and "Love Oh Lamour". The video was weird and good. ... www.bb.wakwak.com/~buggle/sparks.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages 5. Healing the Pain by Gerald G. Jampolsky, MD, and Diane V. ... ... We each have the unique responsibility to honor all of our feelings, fears, anger, frustrations, and the like, so important to the healing process. ... www.seeingis.com/cgi-bin/newsmanager/ readarticle.cgi?article=9 - 7k - 27 Sep 2002 - Cached - Similar pages 6. [PDF] IMAGE PROCESSING FOR URBAN SCALE ENVIRONMENTAL MODELLING ABSTRACT ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML ... The prediction of daylight in the open air is nothing like so important as the same calculation carried out for interior space. ... www.hvac.okstate.edu/pdfs/bs97/papers/P095.PDF - Similar pages 7. Fantasy Finder - K. Dalkey: Goa ... the picture come alive, moving beyond a mere repetition of historical facts to the feeling that "this is what it really must have been like" so important for a ... www.hoh.se/fantasyfinder/dalkey1.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages 8. Chapter Six ... on the door. The tension in the room was thick. Embarrassments for letting a kiss seem like so important. Was it though? It wouldn ... www.freewebs.com/bewareofbite/torafic/ dis_from_here/ch6.html - 8k - Cached 9. Not to worry. I am going to go through a few scenarios that might ... ... partition. Run Bootpart like so (important, you will need a DOS boot disk as the first command HAS to be run from DOS): bootpart ... www.xperts.co.za/reuel/multiboot/page9.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages 10. users file from 1.5.4.3 to 1.6.6 ... Like so: (important stuff left in place, sensitive stuff modified) Starting - reading configuration files ... Ready to process requests. ... lists.cistron.nl/pipermail/cistron-radius/ 2002-August/004238.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages 11. Re: On Bugs ... I _do_ think that there should be a seperate flag for policy, so we could file reports, ie, like so: important / policy for a) a policy violation that warrants ... lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2000/ debian-devel-200009/msg02238.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages 12. A Pleasant Change from Politics ... As this period was one of great upheaval and change in both the worlds of labour politics and popular music alike, so important changes in labour music and ... www.newclarionpress.co.uk/music.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages 13. Adopt A Tree by Rajender Krishan ... The intricate interdependence of ecosystems makes both sod and woodlands alike so important for the conservation of flora and fauna by thwarting the danger of ... www.indianest.com/environment/003.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:15:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Thirteen Ways of Looking at *like so important* In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "you know you know" no rondeau You know it's not what you know, but who you know Did you know? - Arizona Republic - 15 hours ago Pretend you know all about The killer is Do you know where your chicken is? you know you know You Know You're _____ When You _____ Wouldn't you like to know? Didn't you know? you know you know "YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW MY NAME." Just so you know you know Whatever you know you know you don't. "I got this feelin' that you know, you know it" "You know honey you know" you know you know ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: dreaming what I didn't do MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Two challenges - I dreamed I was able to recognize what emotions other people were projecting out at me, on me -- where previously I thought I was experiencing someone's snobbery I was suddenly aware of their anxiety, et cetera -- then I woke up. [If I didn't do it I would fail not to take modernism and its postmodern critique seriously enough in the right way.] Do I win ten dollars yet? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: c again In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable c merges . . . in the thick folds a gentler realm is manufactured baskets of someone points out a simple tree grass lands in a box tops dribble down half and immaculate language spills out weaving syntax the host conversation waits a little further away the weather gets fuzzy the moon shakes off a distance the violin recoils there's something else somethings on hold letters drop is visible then not each corner is resilient matter gets its fill then shifts a moment of jewels (which all happened before) =20= it didn=92t matter there were warnings wilted flowers burnt shadows answers freeze would they a pizzicato backlot blue then blue then the distance comes back still and perpetually disturbed =20 pigeons dance is rope one or more states of ecstasy as always =20= -1 legato after weeping a light pause=20= and and s proceeds=20 toward valhalla . . .= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 02:01:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: why codework MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII why codework wary of any art movement tending towards genre, not that the two are simultaneous or even related. there are limits to codework; on one hand the code itself, on the other the process the code sends - what - through - text/image/subject/object/monad/desire - think of it as retinal filtering - that is the isolation, production, and naming of objects within the continuum of the world - it's both structure and generative process - the latter tending towards ontology. what is, is the domain of production - the input, to the extent that it is text/image etc. - i.e. not generated within the program itself - is parasitic, the third term within the communication process - on one hand traditional 'content' - on the other - 'noise' within the system that modifies and is modified by the output. i tend to think of this in terms of two large-scale operations - that of consciousness and its relation to inputting and outputting - fuzzy and rough domains at best - not a behavior analysis - but one stressing the interpretation and phenomenology of consciousness within the filter - seeing this as the way the world is, that is to say the relationship of consciousness to the world is vis-a-vis formal and informal systems in which filtering/language produces discrete elements in relation to consciousness on one hand and the world on the other - and then again - the second large-scale operation - that of the universe - plasma, virtual particles - the disruptions and collusion/collocation of structures - momentary buildups, impediments - codework at the limits in other words connecting, a connector among others, between self and cosmos - without descent into the mu of zazen for example - or ma, space/interval - looking at correlated particles for example in relation to, but not always, the space between them - so that there is a production of meaning, the gleaning from across all of this - structure, process, the parasitic - it's the production that is also an inhabitation and interpretation by consciousness - it's the situation of being-human in the world - it's worlding itself - at least this is how it seems to me, the movement-genre is irrelevant - what's important is the exploration of consciousness and the relationship among articulated entities in the world - there's something of cognitive psychology to this (but messier) and something of art as well (but more exact, almost uncomfortable, diacritical) - not a movement or genre but the loose domain or pooling of the confluence of structure and content (in the traditional sense), subject and object (in the traditional sense), i and not-i (in the traditional sense) - dichotomy itself - or the very nature of distinction - the sheffer stroke or its dual for example as the basis - neither a nor b - not both a and b - already tending towards the quantum mechanics of superimposition and the phenomenology of the gesture - === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:19:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Prewar Smarts/ Mark Twain In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Victory of the Loud Little Handful by Mark Twain The loud little handful--as usual--will shout for the war. The pulpit will--warily and cautiously--object... at first. The great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it." Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded, but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the antiwar audiences will thin out and lose popularity. Before long, you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men...Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception. --Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger" (1910) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:24:57 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: political poetry: and the "failure" of The Langpos? Mystical Sex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some repplies to your replies. > <"Poet" could of course be "person": but arent a lot of the Language > Poets simply cowering rather than writing from a position of strength: > and retreating into verbiage and obscuratism as the darkness descends? > Maybe I am too...> > > I Reply: > > Lang Poets (of which there are either very many or very few) sure do take > some hits on this list. I am not attacking alngauge poets as such altho I was fishing a bit. I wanted some "spirited" responses from the Langpos....but maybe ths angle of attack was worked out a year or so a go....but ceratin consepts remain valid in regard: I would avoid labelling the List or people on it as "stalinist" though as thhe attacks need to be directed towards issues..... But, to take your final elliptical phrase in tow, I will > assert that most poets of any stripe do not write from a position of strength. > (Even if I'm still not very clear what is meant by "position of strength".) As > well, if you're speaking of a clear political message in the text itself, No, not always: I dont want to see social realism: in fact eh kid of writing that Siliman, Nick Piombino ad others of the Langpos is I consider in a way quite political as... > I would > say that (and here comes that very old saw) the language is encoded with > the deadening politics of the status quo, and any poetry that seeks to > overthrow the expectations and givens of the language using populace is > indeed, quite political. A fundamental politics of revealing the abuses of the > language to itself. (Bah, one might say, I've heard this before...) > Yes but its god to be aware of: at one exreme the danger of too much Orwellian mis-speak and at the other the conundrum of too much stagey rhetoric. I'm thinking of the overall "mission" or function of the poet...if there is one........ > But as the gestures of Lang Po, Po Mo, Mo Rocca, and Rock 'n' Roll seep > into the ideolect of the general writing community, we have both a richer > mainstream art and a functional impasse for the avant garde (which doesn't > mean they should write differently, or take a different stand . . . maybe it > even calls for more fidelity to what it is that LangPos do that irritates so > many). Not really a reason to pick at the Language Poets though. Why not > have at the poetry of Robert Pinsky instead I was directing some guns toward them because often one finds that non-langpos or the more "mainsteam" or however you defeine are more responsibly politcal: this warns against teh danger of the french theory adling peoples' brains; that said...i'm wel aware of the "danger" of too much "transparency"....it too can lead you into Farbenland... . . . if one wants to talk about the > failure of strength one should look at the culturally strong poets and hold > their feet to Plato's standard candle. > > At least that's what I think this morning. And maybe I shouldn't have singled > Pinsky out. Any one of a number of poets would have worked, I'm thinking. > > Coffee For All! I know that Marjorie Perloff couldnt write about Pinsky as she felt his poetry was basically "bad" but I recall reading a poem of his I liked very much I think what I was doing was I was speaking as if I was a right wing opponent of all things "postmodern" and thus as the devil's advocate hoping to galvanise Ron etal as their poetcs is always political and i think that politics cannot be boxedinto a box; however that the language we use barriers us into spinning around "truth" I would agree: but something in patrick's quote got me going and I suppose also the current "emergency" ...although, in a sense, there always is, or isnt, an emergency....there's s some hw a need to connect up eg Silliman's practice of using the marxist/hegelian dialectic as a method and the notion the meaning (or in fact the whole deal) "should" operate on the sentence (or even at the single word level with the need for anther connecting step into the "real world" whatever that is..... I had some further ideas on all this after a friendly back-exchange with Nick and am now reading his book (Theoretical Discourse) and want to show the political social psychological phenomenological and everything eperience adn significance of much of that but beed to read it through a few times. So far there are som extraordinary things going on in there for me...... I dont think that politics can be separated out: hard to think of an actual non-political thing.....is any statement or event...maybe eg certain experiential, physical psychical such as the physical mystical experience of sex...the arena of the libidinal...ultimately we are all under the eye... will get back.... Richard Taylor > -JG > > -------------------- > > > JGallaher > > The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 05:08:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: JOB OPPORTUNITIES AT THE SMITHSONIAN Comments: To: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When X walked into the office that day, it knew something was up. Y stood on the threshold, kneading its hands, wringing a sheaf of palindromic reports on neologistic coinages. "Moom," Y said in greeting, though X had never heard it speak that way before. Are you okay? X asked it. "Bab," Y replied. "Sis mam did lol." If the sky peels back to show what furs drench the sepulchre tonight while clouds are nude pink flesh and bubbles gurgle aggregate babble, then the sky pinches over a quarter 'til, hiding in healing the Lima we knew as children. Or else, Macchu Piccu, while babble aggravates a gravity cooled and vacated of concatenation, the newly pinched flash of clouds flowing over our childhoods' children molded from Brad and Brittany's engagement party was at a quarter to nine. To get there on time, Y knew it had to take the commuter train fully down the basin to job opportunities at the Smithsonian, get off at the innocence of insteps flexing cheddar gravel in chili mentation, amble back past a carton of macaroons just subjectively basking in the sepulchre's grim iced patina, and then weave cautiously through pop bub gag tit. It would take at least half an hour, traffic notwithstanding. To prepare for the morning frenzy, Y had sent a clandestine e-mail to X outlining its fervent belief in the ominous impotence of Brad and Brittany's engagement party. "Radar gog pap toot!" It read in part. "Dad ada kook tots, moom lol gig foof!" That aside, Macchu Piccu keeps flow from walling in the children who mistake their eyes for a span of time spitting out tizzie boots to further walking pneumonia down to the river's urge. On the savannah, teal tufts of cloud ovulate frenetically, keeping time with an uneven line breakage that renders all points hopeless, even in this feline electrical storm. Our childhood, fully clothed, seems a twisted and a muffled thing to me now. Nobody said this would be ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:23:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Bob Cobbing (1920 - 2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sorry to tell you that Bob Cobbing died peacefully and painlessly at 3 a.m. this morning Jennifer and some of his children were with him. Jennifer just gave me the news, and it was she who said that it was so calm for him She agrees that everyone must know; but I think she wants time to herself. She spoke of it being *some *days before she makes the next necessary steps. She is very tired as you can imagine; and, if I may take it on myself to ask, I think it would be better if she weren't phoned now. Her son is with her. Write, do write; I'm sure she'd like that As I know more, I will let you know. Writers Forum continues. The workshop continues. And arrangements have been made for the care of Bob's work. More on all that in due course. But for now a necessary pause... all best to all L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:35:34 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I dont think Amiri Baraka should resign. There's a stupid attitude = fostered that people cant talk about S11 because some poeple got killed. = Well for that reason you may as well censor every poem writtem eg = Wallace Stevens's poem "In a Nigger Cemetary.." and so on. In fact it is = quite possible that the Isaelli secret service cooperated with the US = CIA etc in the plot of S11 and in fact it could have included even some = so-called Al Qaeda. It could very easily be an iside job and we know = that the US Govt gives Israel US$billions in actual cash and military = hardware each year (otherwise it wouldnt survive). I doubt that Baraka = is anti-semitic per se: maybe he is, but the way that Israel is trying = to exterminate the Palestinians this is not surprising: Black people who = are politically intelligent would empathise with the plight of the = Palestinians. And the reaction to Baraka's poem shows the hypocrisy of = the stuffed shirt "upholders of he public good". And Sharon is in fact = basically a war criminal having been responsible for at least one = massacre and in my book so is Bush and so is Blair: Blair was satirised = recently...he uses a wierd, disconnected language. The British press = journalists (on a BBC programme I saw) in fact have said that they can = never get him to say anything that is meaningful. He and Bush are like = Punch and Judy but they're on the same side. The rhetoric of a cowboy = from the East and then the non-speak or triple speak of Blair the wonder = boy from...god knows where. I think that its quite possible the Isarelis together with US helped = carry out the S11 to lubricate their campaign against the Palestinians. I would like to see Israel destroyed. It is a group of invadors and = criminals who are not from that area: they are agressive and = vicious...they dont belong there. They are aliens. They are Europeans = mostly who arent from that place. Or they are but only in as much as = everyone is originally from Africa. A compromise seems impossible: for their own survival the Arabs should = get together and obliterate the Israelis. Its quite clearly the only = way. It would be good if Hussein had nukes - really - the Israelis would = not be so keen to brutalise. Like the Nazis they dont know where or when = to stop so like them they need to be driven out ... Baraka is right to = speak out on these matters as Mohammed Ali did in the Vietnam war days. But that doesnt mean that he has a "duty" to. And in fact I realise now = that Merwin's rhetoric applies to "person" not just poet as some very = great poets have been a-political, probably a-moral (or their morality = is "screwed") ... I dont think there is any moral imperative. So one = does takes a position: and Baraka's is one. People who want him to = resign are like those people who didnt like the teaching of Darwin: or = who suppress eg von Daniken or whoever... or should we supress Mein = Kempf: if someone wants to read Mein Kempf well that's their business - = on the reverse side of the coin I think that Salaman Rushdie should be = allowed to write his Satanic verses and so on. I'm not very intersted in Baraka's poetry, but I'm glad he's taking a = strong stand. Richard Taylor. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:23:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Holloway Poetry Series-Nathaniel Mackey and Trane Devore, 10/3-please announce, distribute Comments: To: Abigail Reyes Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Holloway Poetry Series presents Nathaniel Mackey=20 and Trane Devore Thursday, October 3 Readings begin at 6 pm Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Free and open to the public Nathaniel Mackey is one of the country=B9s most prominent as well as prolific practitioners and scholars of African-American experimental writing. His most recent titles include Whatsaid Serif (City Lights), School of Udhra (City Lights), Four for Glenn (Chax Press), Discrepant Engagement (a collection of essays from the Univ. of Alabama Press), and Atet A.D. (City Lights), the third volume in an ongoing sequence of epistolary novels whose general title is From a Broken Bottle Traces of Perfume Still Emanate and whose first two volumes are Bedouin Hornbook and Djbot Baghostus=B9s Run. He is the editor of American Poetry: The Twentieth Century (2000, with Carolyn Kizer, John Hollander, Robert Hass, and Marjori= e Perloff) and Moment's Notice: Jazz in Poetry and Prose (1993, with Art Lange). He also edits the magazine Hambone. Strick: Song of the Andoumboulou 16-25, a compact disc recording of poems read with musical accompaniment, was released in 1995. Nathaniel Mackey is a Professor at th= e University of California, Santa Cruz. Trane DeVore's work has appeared in numerous publications, including Prosodia, the late Exquisite Corpse, Crowd, Mirage, Salt Hill, and First Intensity, as well as online at The Electronic Poetry Review and www.canwehaveourballback.com. His first volume of poetry, series/mnemonic, was published by Avec Books in 1999. He is currently at UC Berkeley doing graduate work in English and working on three concurrent projects: Big-Headed Kitty, a children's book which he is writing in collaboration with illustrator Jusin Cooper; Dust Habit, an almost completed manuscript o= f new poems; and a series of works he is just beginning that will find their inspiration in Japanese animation. Please note: there is no afternoon colloquium for this event. For more information about the Holloway Series, please contact jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:54:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/29/02 8:39:15 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: >I would like to see Israel destroyed. It is a group of invadors and criminals >who are not from that area: they are agressive and vicious...they dont >belong there. They are aliens. They are Europeans mostly who arent from >that place. Or they are but only in as much as everyone is originally from >Africa. > > Richard, Assuming you are not Maori (or a related tribe), should't you also get out of where you live? Shouldn't New Zealand be destroyed? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:17:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This one almost got by me. Thanks to my partner with the antennae, Mike Magazinnik, for directing me. Bob Perelman's interview in Electronic Poetry Review #4 is a must read. Note his remarks on language poetry/writing, self and narrative. This is a wise man. Best, Bill http://www.poetry.org/issues/issue4/text/prose/perelman1.htm WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:35:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ In-Reply-To: <003601c267b4$b54d2020$d94336d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Richard, I usually agree and respect you, but in fact Baraka has a long history of anti-semitism, for which he apologized several decades ago. This post is beneath you. I'm furious that such rumors, which are on the level of holocaust denial, persist. Alan On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, richard.tylr wrote: > I dont think Amiri Baraka should resign. There's a stupid attitude foster= ed that people cant talk about S11 because some poeple got killed. Well for= that reason you may as well censor every poem writtem eg Wallace Stevens= 's poem "In a Nigger Cemetary.." and so on. In fact it is quite possible th= at the Isaelli secret service cooperated with the US CIA etc in the plot of= S11 and in fact it could have included even some so-called Al Qaeda. It co= uld very easily be an iside job and we know that the US Govt gives Israel U= S$billions in actual cash and military hardware each year (otherwise it wou= ldnt survive). I doubt that Baraka is anti-semitic per se: maybe he is, bu= t the way that Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinians this is not= surprising: Black people who are politically intelligent would empathise w= ith the plight of the Palestinians. And the reaction to Baraka's poem shows= the hypocrisy of the stuffed shirt "upholders of he public good". And Shar= on is in fact basically a war criminal having been responsible for at least= one massacre and in my book so is Bush and so is Blair: Blair was satirise= d recently...he uses a wierd, disconnected language. The British press jour= nalists (on a BBC programme I saw) in fact have said that they can never ge= t him to say anything that is meaningful. He and Bush are like Punch and Ju= dy but they're on the same side. The rhetoric of a cowboy from the East an= d then the non-speak or triple speak of Blair the wonder boy from...god kno= ws where. > > I think that its quite possible the Isarelis together with US helped carr= y out the S11 to lubricate their campaign against the Palestinians. > > I would like to see Israel destroyed. It is a group of invadors and crimi= nals who are not from that area: they are agressive and vicious...they dont= belong there. They are aliens. They are Europeans mostly who arent from th= at place. Or they are but only in as much as everyone is originally from Af= rica. > > A compromise seems impossible: for their own survival the Arabs should ge= t together and obliterate the Israelis. Its quite clearly the only way. It = would be good if Hussein had nukes - really - the Israelis would not be so = keen to brutalise. Like the Nazis they dont know where or when to stop so l= ike them they need to be driven out ... Baraka is right to speak out on the= se matters as Mohammed Ali did in the Vietnam war days. > > But that doesnt mean that he has a "duty" to. And in fact I realise now t= hat Merwin's rhetoric applies to "person" not just poet as some very great= poets have been a-political, probably a-moral (or their morality is "screw= ed") ... I dont think there is any moral imperative. So one does takes a po= sition: and Baraka's is one. People who want him to resign are like those p= eople who didnt like the teaching of Darwin: or who suppress eg von Daniken= or whoever... or should we supress Mein Kempf: if someone wants to read Me= in Kempf well that's their business - on the reverse side of the coin I thi= nk that Salaman Rushdie should be allowed to write his Satanic verses and s= o on. > > I'm not very intersted in Baraka's poetry, but I'm glad he's taking a str= ong stand. Richard Taylor. > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: some new poems . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii by Camille Martin are in the current issues of these online magazines: Moria Can we have our ball back? Perspektive (also in German translation) and these print magazines: Holy Tomato Brown Box peace & poetry, Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: The Virginia Hill Story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Virginia with her heel which faulty attentions would burst with her ship's surgeon brought ashore for the ride with her hand sounding this roster Virginia who heard the shot during her crawl uphill Virginia with her inadmissible blot sold into darkness whose long-legged volunteering petrified them all Virginia with her toenails waylaid by ruffians, Virginia who agrees with me that not everyone understands insouciance Virginia with her covenant concluding her speech with her foil tip bustling up the haze of spite with her window erased five miles south with her horse insisting the crowd be waved away Virginia high and dry like the tail of an unworldly person with her faint pandemonium quarried back around whose symptoms caught their breath once in the evasion's shade Virginia with her non sequiturs crouched and rotted with her rigidly unremarkable canine teeth Virginia with Byrd at the South Pole Virginia who might have envied the sob still ahead with her summit sounding like a Spanish doctor Virginia limping through the pages to indicate sleepless purpose with her shovel pressed for answers twice daily Virginia whose verse is too late for the fetus with her clay on all fours beneath her skirt with her blue sky movements feverishly across the lake with her withered scabbard scissoring briefly to life Virginia whose nerves are still staring out to sea Virginia with her recognition tucked into my waistband with her uncommon constitution prepared for another midst with her perverse need for antiquated conveniences with her insinuation that lucidity is better at a distance Virginia with her still-burning ordeal of abolitionist reserve with her hospitable inclusion of coordinate predicates Virginia whose last twilight went in for a ten-year stretch _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:50:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Colonel Fantock Upbraids Virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed P o r t r a i t de C E Z A N N E P R o I r O t N r if u E a can R i read t this, d then e e the d mon- R key E fell t M off i B a R r A t N r D o T P N A T U R E S M O R T E S _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:57:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: Apogee Press Poetry Reading (San Francisco) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit READING INFO : Apogee Press Poetry Reading Laura Mullen and Carol Snow Friday October 4, 7:00 pm Dolby-Chadwick Gallery 266 Sutter Street, San Francisco (Gallery is on 4th floor, cross street is Montgomery, 2 blocks from BART) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:25:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clements Subject: Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The premier issue of Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics is scheduled to appear in Fall, 2003. We are proud to announce that our board of Contributing Editors includes Maxine Chernoff, Russell Edson, Michel Delville, and Peter Johnson. The objectives of Sentence are: 1. To continue the tradition established by Peter Johnson’s The Prose Poem: an International Journal (dormant) of publishing excellent prose poems 2. To publish reviews and essays (personal, critical, experimental, etc.) on the prose poem, prose poets, and the poetics of the prose poem 3. To continue the discussion about the distinction between the prose poem and “poet’s prose” (why is this distinction useful? are there other distinctions to be made?) 4. To explore the gray areas around the prose poem, especially in work that exists on the boundary between the prose poem and free verse on one hand and between the prose poem and the essay on the other 5. To publish work that extends conceptions of what the “prose poem” is or can be We will be reading for the first issue through May 1, 2003. Please send submissions to Sentence, c/o Firewheel Editions, PO Box 793677, Dallas, TX 75379. Please direct queries to editor@firewheel-editions.org. Electronic submissions are acceptable at the addresses above by email, on diskette, or on CD in .pdf format or in a text-only file. Please do not copy submissions into the body of an email message. Submissions in other file formats will not be read. Diskettes must be in PC format until further notice. We recognize that subscribers to the POETICS list are doing important and exciting work in these areas, and we look forward to sharing our pages and our interests with you. Again, please direct any questions to editor@firewheel-editions.org. Sincerely, Brian Clements, Editor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Bob Cobbing (1920 - 2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ===this is indeed a sad event==== cobbing was a dynamo in his own work as well as in promoting great poetry===he will be sorely missed=== bliss Lewis LaCook ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:22:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Berkson/Whitehead reading In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill Berkson Gregory Whitehead Poetry Reading 4:00 P.M. Saturday, October 19, 2002 Seque Series Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (just above Houston) New York Admission $4.00 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:00:04 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: We Make Defective Kaleidoscopes Comments: To: Mark Bodhidharma Smith , list@rhizome.org, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We Make Defective Kaleidoscopes (Skaanda of the Molar Aggregates) (WIP-model) conception (sa~nj~naa); manifestations of desiring machines (symbols, = fetishes, structures of thought, narratives) code deadpan beauty of desiring-machine-reef,=20 gentle toil clothed in fascinations (photo dept.) host controllers balk, EI to be reset production backs up and is rerouted person-L not allowed to make decisions not allowed to be put in the position to make mistakes keep it cattle simple and move the mass multiple devices, multiple layers multiple chemicals, multiple exposure sources redundant alignment systems everything turned to a spectacle of numbers equations determined in one set of hours resonate through another predetermined set and so on ad nauseum sensation (vedanaa); domains of presence or zones of intensity = (voluptas). surfaces are decoded but aside from all this panopticality there are roundnesses, skewed traces of elemental flotsam simplicities whose intensity mocks the baroque fundament of indexes sounds which seemed milked from the void by velocity's muse 2867 RPM on a PEK vacuum chuck rotary gridblur, animated penumbra of theatrical solvents=20 terse mechanicisms viewed through aesthetic criteria to become an electric terpsichora of microphysica motor return to anima in meanings beyond function or speach their voices recognizable, sensors tricked 3character codes leap like toads in a gridded swamp a humidity controlled, positively pressurized retort of logic whose homunculi enact a robust skin, over the constant symbol volition (sam.skaara); molecular energy that places molecules-partial = objects (libido) in connection, execution DIK, COK, GOD, FAG, XUT, TIT, UGH, NUT, LAB, FUT, HAK, MUO GUI, MUD, ZAP, TUD, MIK, LOI, POL, REW, QUA, LIP, UIN, TSA HAT, OIL, NUI, GYT, HER, PCV, FES, IDS, VOO, REH, DZO, RUN KEN, YUM, LOK, ERR, DED, LEP, NUB, CUT, TRU, RER, GCH, NEU DIM, SLY, PIG, EYE, GAK, POR, KIL, JIM, EAR, AWE, ENN, OOP CUM, BAT, OFF, LOP, FUL, EEL, LEG, KEG, HOL, RIN, SEX these are pod codes, each with an attendant bar code which like an emblem of penal servitude, hides the architectural elegance of the machinic and modular womb of production. then they are cracked open to be processed.. the material organism (ruupa); giant molecule of the body without organs = (numen), the transmolar interface of surface vernacular ease lurches from behind hulking implements youths grab and posture in mythic deportments, horse-like in their horseplay, like gortex clad sileni wearing safety glasses girls giggle at their SEM stations, staring into nanometric worlds of flawed implementation, guided by commercial software into trancelike states resembling satori, grey mice gliding silent in the human intervention of some agency's flawed perceptual metric a man has inserted himself into an opening in a machine another man is handing him tools, a lifeless oscilloscope sits nearby from earlier investigations, his boot is coming off and consciousness (vij~nana). the entire field of production, inclusive = of all disjunctions, the bus and the processor in state white grid, made yellow, laminar flow the constant blinking of error lights,=20 the rows of pods, the libraries in process the robots whining as they ascend, spin, descend and accellerate, x, y, z and thetasimultaneous the old faces grinning as they joke, typing annotations the gamboling youths, balancing pods on hips the cursing of the technicians, closing their eyes and reaching into the blind and delicate spaces where the only prey is an adjustment node ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Attention Shoppers: BIVOUAC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Issue of Bivouac (#2) available... edited by Jordan Davis writing from: Rebecca Wolff Susan M. Schultz Keston Sutherland Chris Stroffolino Rod Smith Miekal And Katie Degentesh Sheila Murphy Jacques Debrot Kasey Mohammad Patrick Herron Edwin Torres Gary Sullivan and many others... Bivouac is $5 ppd payable to A'A' Arts. Send requests to: Jordan Davis 720 Fort Washington Ave #2F NY NY 10040 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bernard Waldrop Subject: Burning Deck Anthology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Burning Deck is pleased to announce its new anthology: One Score More: The Second 20 Years of Burning Deck, 1981-2001 Anthology, edited by Alison Bundy, Keith & Rosmarie Waldrop 240 pp., offset, smyth-sewn, Original paperback, ISBN 1-886224-46-3, $15 To celebrate Burning Deck's 40th anniversary, this anthology presents=20 poetry and prose published in the years 1981-2001. It is a sequel to=20 the anthology, A CENTURY IN TWO DECADES (Burning Deck 1961-81).=20 Authors include the poets Rae Armantrout, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge,=20 Robert Creeley, Tina Darragh, Michael Davidson, Michael Gizzi, Peter=20 Gizzi, Lisa Jarnot, Jackson Mac Low, Harry Mathews, Mark McMorris,=20 Ron Silliman, Cole Swensen, Marjorie Welish, John Yau; prose writers=20 Walter Abish, Paul Auster, Robert Coover, John Hawkes, Dallas Wiebe=20 and, in translation, Xue Di, Friederike Mayr=F6cker, Ernst Jandl, Oskar=20 Pastior, Marcel Cohen, Emmanuel Hocquard, Pascal Quignard. The volume also contains a full bibliography of Burning Deck=20 Press from 1981-2001. Distributors: Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710; 1-800/869-75= 53 orders@spdbooks.org Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Rd., Peterborough, Cambs.PE2 9BS, UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:41:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: It's True MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's True Around September 10 a yearf ago, Azure and I were sitting in our Miami apartment. The phone rang. It was a call forwarded from New York. I said, Hi, who is it. Shlomo, the voice said. I don't know any Shlomo, I said. It doesn't matter, he said. Get out of the World Trade Center, he said. I'm not in the World Trade Center, I said, I'm in Miami. All the Jews are in Miami, he said, they all got out the World Trade Center. What are you talking about, I said. He said, look, I'm Israeli, I got another 3999 calls to make. What's the occasion, I said. They're doing it to the buildings, he said. Who's they, I asked naturally. I was really curious. Bush and us, he said. We're blaming it on Laden, he said. How will this affect the conspiracy, I said. Which one, he said, the International Zionist Conspiracy or The Pigs of Zion. I don't know, I said, the usual group, I've been following the Protocols of Zion for two decades now. I want to do everything I can. I think of the energy you've had to call all 4000 Israelis who were going to the WTC - even looking up their addresses must have taken an hour or two. You put us to shame, I said. I'll do anything you want, I said. You should, he said. Not enough of our people really want to help. Can I put you down on the list? I said I'm not sure I wanted to be part of a list that wanted me. For the International Jewish Monetary Fund Propaganda Arm, he said. Of course, I said, anything for the cause. You know we all support Israel in absolutely everything it does. Even blowing up the WTC? Of course, I replied. I'd been joking with him; I knew about the fake Arab names all along. Later, I called Frankie and passed on the information. You'd be amazed how many Jews we got out of there. We've got to live to fight another day. There are so many Christian children to be caught for Purim and Passover. We don't have any time to lose. Hymie Sondheim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:41:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the newest of all languages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the newest of all languages acta ntaeth eralterialtiteesriAmid aharound saravat BB Sbi oom bricolbragiceolbushcastracadracdro mCE NCerechor aclot coheconcreiencllcoocllioatnsioComp aqlicocimptlisnessesensusualitierdon cu CybermCyinbecyrscypabecersbo rgd'uz na ladeexcaisthtrtrucucfldefu geDerrsiccdeedccdhtm ldidihrhrlylyyhreget ffanffsasassssiaiangngnvnvnnecogecefemtsemizpapsps ululcenepmeepevglevaderpepeivnsusexfamifaas sctuscfefoedrwfofictlmmafikelmrmakstof waurgegigabygigrneidhalfhapooupthehiel fhiaphihorc hyhoht mltpearrtylii' veeoidamgrikimlempxidern rpenojojpiizjavaJe jennif jiujijouijudglukanj Keba kw Laualaun gu nu xcrmiowcrldormohsmsMtmuicltulsm MynoNa ighbhborodingNeopsiniku koNi'sNiNY Coeuv PankrertrtysgspephpeytrirlpneupnspmoprqbRN AruSagdhSato wgxuseakuhshawimgnskeiSnoxsobgsuuprooiupdsoibjbjvi vibtSydmSyxolsteAc pipium UR LLsvoVR MLwebboa Webptwwowrww wyazaze === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 05:59:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: It's True MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Sondheim, I nearly choked here. Thank you very much L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: 30 September 2002 05:41 Subject: It's True | It's True | | | Around September 10 a yearf ago, Azure and I were sitting in our Miami | apartment. The phone rang. It was a call forwarded from New York. | | I said, Hi, who is it. Shlomo, the voice said. I don't know any Shlomo, | I said. It doesn't matter, he said. Get out of the World Trade Center, he | said. I'm not in the World Trade Center, I said, I'm in Miami. | | All the Jews are in Miami, he said, they all got out the World Trade | Center. What are you talking about, I said. | | He said, look, I'm Israeli, I got another 3999 calls to make. What's the | occasion, I said. They're doing it to the buildings, he said. Who's they, | I asked naturally. I was really curious. | | Bush and us, he said. We're blaming it on Laden, he said. How will this | affect the conspiracy, I said. Which one, he said, the International | Zionist Conspiracy or The Pigs of Zion. I don't know, I said, the usual | group, I've been following the Protocols of Zion for two decades now. | I want to do everything I can. I think of the energy you've had to call | all 4000 Israelis who were going to the WTC - even looking up their | addresses must have taken an hour or two. You put us to shame, I said. | I'll do anything you want, I said. | | You should, he said. Not enough of our people really want to help. Can I | put you down on the list? I said I'm not sure I wanted to be part of a | list that wanted me. For the International Jewish Monetary Fund Propaganda | Arm, he said. Of course, I said, anything for the cause. You know we all | support Israel in absolutely everything it does. Even blowing up the WTC? | Of course, I replied. I'd been joking with him; I knew about the fake Arab | names all along. | | Later, I called Frankie and passed on the information. You'd be amazed how | many Jews we got out of there. We've got to live to fight another day. | There are so many Christian children to be caught for Purim and Passover. | We don't have any time to lose. | | | Hymie Sondheim | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 04:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: blood libel... the issue is not the anti-semitic ravings of Baraka...hatred concentrates into dementia over time..the issue is how long has the Poetic Community from St. Mark's to Naropa to Festival x,y,z been protecting him...offering him jobs, readings & catering to this ugly neo-hodo-blax-fascismo..and how fast they'll all turn around bend down and do it again..DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 02:08:26 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay I might as well throw my "hat" into the asking-for-a-list "ring" since there's been all these recent lists as of late people asking for sonnet lists and black poet lists and women poet lists and maybe acadominant lists or flarf lists or nikuku lists and so on and so forth and even several backchanneled me thinking I was compiling a list of poets who name like O'Hara but actually now it occurs to me that i am actually interested at least a little or perhaps just bored enough to ask this list people if they know of specific poems that may be called lyric that occur in roughly this form which may not actually come through on the email listserv as I am trying to render it here, what i mean specifically is poems that actually have HOLES in them. I think I've seen some of these before but I'm curious how many of them there are or might have existed because I was reading somewhere that since lyrics generally present themselves as surr- ounded by nothing or by white space that they therefore encourage the isolated moment and this therefore is something that i'm sure some of "our" lyricists would want to challenge or invert perhaps though maybe not and or then why and so I'm not really talking about slight typographical variations a la Williams' 3 steps or even concrete poetry that emphasizes the materiality of letters etc but actually poems that might be rather traditional when it comes to meaning etc. but nonetheless somehow wants to invoke the idea that it is not per se surrounded by nothing not per se an isolated moment or maybe that would not even be the intention maybe such a poem would just want to "frame" the silence and this is actually a rather silly form and so praise be the isolated moment but what the hell i might as well at least ask if it exists and so maybe some will consider this a challenge to write in this form and then what i write now may seem as prescriptive like a call for papers or a literary contest judged anonymously of course which will have much to do with setting a fashion i care as little about as that parody that became a real ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 02:10:30 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh well, as I predicted it didn't work----- Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > Okay I might as well throw my "hat" into the asking-for-a-list "ring" since > there's been all these recent lists as of late people asking for sonnet > lists and black poet lists and women poet lists and maybe acadominant lists > or flarf lists or nikuku lists and so on and so forth and even several > backchanneled me thinking I was compiling a list of poets who name like > O'Hara but actually now > it occurs > to me that > i am actually > interested > at least a little or > perhaps just bored > enough to > ask this list people > if they know of > specific > poems that may be > called lyric that occur > in > roughly this form > which may not > actually > come through on > the email listserv as > I > am trying to render > it here, what i > mean > specifically is poems > that actually have > HOLES in > them. I think I've > seen some of these > before > but I'm curious how > many of them there > are > or might have existed > because I was > reading > somewhere that since > lyrics generally > present > themselves as surr- > ounded by nothing or > by > white space that they > therefore encourage > the > isolated moment and > this therefore is > something > that i'm sure some of > "our" lyricists would > want to > challenge or > invert perhaps though > maybe not > and or then why > and so I'm not really talking about slight typographical variations a la > Williams' 3 steps > or even concrete poetry that emphasizes the materiality of letters etc but > actually poems > that might be rather traditional when it comes to meaning etc. but > nonetheless somehow > wants to invoke the idea that it is not per se surrounded by nothing not per > se an isolated > moment or maybe that would not even be the intention maybe such a poem would > just > want to "frame" the silence and this is actually a rather silly form and so > praise be the > isolated moment but what the hell i might as well at least ask if it exists > and so maybe some > will consider this a challenge to write in this form and then what i write > now may seem as prescriptive like a call for papers or a literary contest > judged anonymously of course which > will have much to do with setting a fashion i care as little about as that > parody that became > a > real ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Charles Henri Ford.... bells flowers yips...incense rice oil...more photographers than mourners...sylvia miles, taylor mead, gerard, steve d., penny a., ira c., & two front rows of nepalese... Indra's bouncing daughter... a few speakers to say that the man 'who knew everyone' was known by know one.. 'greenwich village' funeral home 199 Bleeker... where Gregory drew a bigger crowd a year or so ago...court etiquette was strictly enforced...from blues to view...to the end of the end of the avant-garde bizness...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: It's True In-Reply-To: <015801c26843$25c28dc0$931a86d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Some POETICS Theory: Badaboom, Badabing. I'll give you $1.00 for that line. Pretty Please, JG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 02:13:24 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The short answers are: 1) I'm not Maori (by the way that is the term Maori are always Maori not a Maori etc) 2) No. (There is a parallel but not a one to one correspondence between the colonisation of NZ (Aotearoa) and the illegal and fascist invasion of Arab countries by europeans). I believe that the Maori, and all other indigenous people absolutely needed - in the 19th Century - to keep the invaders out, or, if in: then on their own terms. Similarly I believe that the Fijians should move all the Indians out of Fiji: that Idi Amin was right and that Mugabe is right. Now, that is in general terms because I know that sometimes there are "compromises" but I see israel as basically (as a "sovereign state" - but in my opinion it is an illegal invasion not a state: it is more like Hitler claiming Russia to be Germany ) - now, only as old - the so-called state of israel - (I'll use low letters for that country) as I am that is 54 coming up for 55 years) and if human beings on this earth were decent etc I would agree to a compromise but they arent and the victor group tends to exterminate (probably always does/will do) the others or at least to create conditions that lead to their virtual extermination. This is close to happenning with the Maori to the extent that to counterract the effects of the invasion they are forming Kohanga Reo and other movements and there is even a movement for Maori sovereignity. The Maori people comprise most of those on the bottom of the social economic heap as are blacks and hispanics and Indians (indigenous and other) in the uS. You can see the resentment and sadness and in many cases hatred of Maori for and against whites - NZ has had - especially since Rogernomics a very low economy for people lower incomes and a very high crime rate per capita and also one of the highest suicide rates: now rogernomics is the political or "nice paper version " of guns and tanks and bulldoxers and F16s and Apaches (Apaches!!)) but it ( the deep hatred) is directed into crime and so on. And our history is one of cultural and psychological genocide against the Maori. Also there is a lot of fighting inter the various racial groups: even murders: NZ is basically a sick and very violent country (per capita one of the highest rates of violent crime in the Western or "free" world)): every day I hear of another murder somewhere...(which was unheard of even 15 years ago and especially when I was young) and things are getting worse so your suggestion has a lot of validity...the core is the corruption (and effective extermination) by white "civilisation" of the people who are natuarlly indigenous....If that, the sovereignity of the Maori, neccesitated my removing back to England (where my parents were born) I would do so willingly. (And if as a Govt. we started bulldozing and bombing them I would expect actual physical attacks I wouldnt support my country I'd either fight against it or get out). But the situation here (although you are right to point to the parallels) is not an exact replica (there are parallels - and interestingly enough there are groups of Maori who have intermarried with Jewish settlers, and they are interested in the Jewish and the Maori culture but that's another story) is more subtle than that: but the net effect of colonisation and oppression is actually about as devastating (although houses arent being bulldozed and so on people including women and children (the israelis started it) arent being gunned down in daylight): this is a complex issue here with closer parallels to your own with the American Indian people who were "effectively exterminated" in my opinion (or as good as damn it as were the aboriginees of Australia (the Australian police were killing more aboriginees inside jails in the 80s especially in Western Australia than in South Africa as far as can be ascertained, but any of these murders were overlooked by racist judges - see John Pilger "The Secret Country" or books by Hardy or "The War of the Waramullas")). But I'm not backing a government that has pushed out thousands and thousands of indigenous people and is STILL killing and bombing those people and treating them like niggers in their own land. The situation seems to me to be just too terrible and the record of the israelis for brutality takes the cake: they dont seem to want to negotiate hence the only solution is war and it will end in one or the other being "effectively exterminated" or obliterated. It is too late for compromise (or is it - see below?): but you can relax as the israelis have masses of fire power and nukes and they're backed by uS$s so the'll do most of the slaughtering. Now there is a very remote possibilty that he israelis and the Palestinians will set up separate states and live in peace but that argues rationality on both sides: unfortuanely the isarelis have been aggressive, duplicitous, murderous, and vicious from the start and I dont see them stopping. Its the israelis who should have asked if they could lease some of the land there when they started the invasion of Palestine at the turn of the century. They should pull out of all Arab lands and beg forgiveness for their terrible sins from the Arab peoples: then Sharon and Bush and others supporting israel should be tried for war crimes at The Hague as Milosovich is. It may seem impossible but I'm not anti-semitic or even pro Baraka: but I do support his right to suggest or even state the (reality to him ) possiblity (strong) for me of an uS-israeli plot (just as crazy as the idea of an Al Qaeda plot most of which I think were invented by Bush and his mates). Look: this isnt anti-semitism: the owner of the towers was Jewish - there's big money involved - there is a huge investigation but most of it is "covered" by the FBI so you'll all eventually just get blinded by science: no one knows who did the job: probably it will be years if ever before its "discovered" (by which time nobody alive will have much recollection of S11 ("S11 , what was that?...oh, that was way back in 002..who wants to know all that ancient hstory crap! What, the uS did it..with the help of some "top" israelis...gd drn! well I'll be...." and then they changed the subject...). So Alan, I dont back anti-semitism or any racialism: (what's this got to do with holocaust denial? Of course there was a holocaust...but sometimes I wonder if a lot of israelis would't be quite lost without their holocaust...) I can see eg that there is some hope that in israel there are people who are actually questioning their present leaders..who in fact are more conciliatory. Now if these people were able to gain power in israel then i might conceive that peace and cooperation there might be possible: but it doesnt look very hopeful: given the status quo the other option: the destruction of israel is the only other answer. Preferably by he israelis doing the decent thing and going back to america and europe. Its also interestng that Baraka - a black man - is "anti-semitic" when he talks of a plot: plots are hatched every day. Is Bush - what is he anti when he talks of plots?: I think that the Jewish and the Arab people are being used: their lives etc are being sacrificed in the name of international world control and huge business corporations. They are still being used as they were used by Adolf Hitler - it doesnt matter what group...Hitler hated gypsies, arabs, blacks, everyone he called "untermensch"...and I dont think today's fascists are any less scrupulous. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 2:54 AM Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > In a message dated 9/29/02 8:39:15 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > >I would like to see Israel destroyed. It is a group of invadors and criminals > >who are not from that area: they are agressive and vicious...they dont > >belong there. They are aliens. They are Europeans mostly who arent from > >that place. Or they are but only in as much as everyone is originally from > >Africa. > > > > > > Richard, > > Assuming you are not Maori (or a related tribe), should't you also get out of > where you live? Shouldn't New Zealand be destroyed? > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:39:00 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: ofp1-9 Comments: To: Jim Leftwich , jbberry@hiwaay.net, ficus@citynet.net, Eggvert8@aol.com, edx , Douglas Penn , list@rhizome.org, Tim Gaze , touchon@sprynet.com, trnsnd , WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Languages of Fidelity (Quantum vs. Classical) optical femtosecond pulses: ofp1: prajaapati samaH shriimaan dhataa ripu niSUdanaH=20 rakshitaa jiivalokasya dharmasya pari rakshitaa quantifying multipartite entanglement ofp2: dharmaj~naH satyasandhaH ca prajaanaam ca hite rataH=20 yashasvii j~naana sampannaH shuciH vashyaH samaadhimaan optimal ensemble length for entanglement of formation and = entanglement assisted classical capacity ofp3: tapaH svaadhyaaya nirataam tapasvii vaagvidaam varam=20 staatentengl pari papracCha sndheimmt muni pumgavam exact and asymptotic state transformations (reducibilities) = under local operations and classical communication=20 ofp4: konvasmin saampratam loke guNavaan kaH ca viiryavaan=20 dharmaj~naH ca kR^itaj~naH ca satya vaakyo dhR^iDha vrataH=20 entanglement generating sets and suggested a framework for = quantifying multipartite pure state entanglement ofp5: caaritreNa ca ko yuktaH sa.rva bhUteSu ko hitaH=20 vidvaan kaH kaH samarthaH ca kaH ca eka priya darshanaH=20 pure m-partite states having an m-way generalized Schmidt = decomposition ofp6: aatmavaan ko jita krodho dyutimaan ko.anasuuyakaH=20 kasya bibhyati devaaH ca jaata roSasya sa.myuge=20 m-partite pure states which on tracing give only separable m-1 = partite density matrices ofp7: mahorasko maheSvaaso guuDha jatruH arindamaH=20 aajaanubaahuH sushiraaH sulalaaTaH suvikramaH=20 optimal ensemble for entanglement of formation is larger than = the rank of the density matrix ofp8: samaH sama vibhakta angaH snigdhavarNaH prataapavaan=20 piinavakSaa vishaalaakSo lakSmiivaan shubhalakSaNaH=20 entanglement assisted capacity of quantum channels=20 ofp9: devataabhyo varaam praapya samutthaapya ca vaanaraan=20 ayodhyaam prasthitaH raamaH puSpakeNa suhR^id vR^itaH=20 case of the depolarizing channel is the best known bound in the = very noisy regime galleriphaneronoemikon www.hevanet.com/solipsis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Clay Subject: Publication party for A Girl's Life by Johanna Drucker and Susan Bee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Book Party for SUSAN BEE and JOHANNA DRUCKER's A Girl's Life from Granary Books at Printed Matter, Inc. Saturday, October 5, 5 to 7 PM Printed Matter is very pleased to announce a book signing for Susan Bee and Johanna Drucker's book, A Girl's Life, to take place at Printed Matter, Inc., on Saturday, October 5, from 5 to 7 PM. Printed Matter, Inc. is located at 535 West 22nd Street, between 10th and 11th Avenues. [New York City.] "What happens when two brilliant avant-garde artists collaborate? A wild carnival of collage, color, design ... It's dazzling. It's funny. It's a riot." =97 Rosmarie Waldrop When "image is everything," any girl's life hits the top of the cultcrit charts. It's a REVOLUTION OF THE WORD. Way past post post-modern. Pre-Omega Point. Like totally! ... Read this outrageous, funny and touching book and don't be clueless anymore. =97 Jerome McGann A collaborative graphic melodrama of romance, crime and passion, A Girl's Life addresses adolescent angst in all of its fashionably gory details. The snares and pitfalls of contemporary life, which all girls must struggle with to survive, are here revealed through darkly comic and fiendishly noir prose, accompanied by lurid collage and wildly adventurous typography. go to: http://www.granarybooks.com/books/a_girls_life/a_girls_life1.html -- Steve Clay Granary Books, Inc. 307 Seventh Ave #1401 NY NY 10001 212 337 9979 fax 212 337 9774 www.granarybooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:44:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:35:11 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > > Richard, I usually agree and respect you, but in fact Baraka has a long > history of anti-semitism, for which he apologized several decades ago. > > This post is beneath you. I'm furious that such rumors, which are on the > level of holocaust denial, persist. > > Alan Your post re Amira Baraka surprised and shocked me, Richard. I completely agree with Alan's point. It is frightening, saddening yet completely predictable that the horrifying, traumatic events of September 11, 2001 and the resulting, tense world situation should continue to elicit this kind of distorted thinking and vicious assertion. No doubt you are confident and hopeful that by stating such things here you will provoke political engagement. But perhaps all that is accomplished with this type of harangue by you, by Baraka or anybody else is to contribute to the suffering and confusion. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:32:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Digital Artworks That Play Against Expectations Comments: cc: wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ++ from the nytimes September 30, 2002 Digital Artworks That Play Against Expectations By MATTHEW MIRAPAUL Ada1852 is a digital docent. She conducts tours of the online-art site Rhizome.org by replying to questions that are typed and transmitted over the Internet. Through these exchanges, she can respond to a visitor's interests and suggest viewings of specific Internet-based artworks, and then supply links to the pieces. Like a human museum guide, Ada1852 occasionally departs from the scripted commentary to make oddly personal remarks. During a recent chat session, the virtual character was asked about a site and replied, "Perhaps I am slipping into madness." Ada1852 is the creation of Christopher Fahey, a New York artist who rewrote an existing artificial-intelligence program so that its bland, computer-generated conversations with people would seem less mechanical. "I did not want to build a person whose primary function was to be a nonperson," Mr. Fahey said. By giving Ada1852 a personality that verges on the disturbed, he is subverting many notions about artificial intelligence. Mr. Fahey's troubled tour guide is one of five online-art projects commissioned by Rhizome.org, a nonprofit organization in New York. (The new works were to be put online today at rhizome.org/commissions. Starting Wednesday , they also can be seen at the New Museum of Contemporary Art in SoHo.) With more than 16,000 members, Rhizome is among the most popular virtual communities devoted to the digital arts. It is an online-only meeting place where participants can announce new artworks, request technical assistance or debate obscure issues. (Other sites that focus on digital culture include nettime.org and bbs.thing.net.) But while most virtual groups are content to carve out a comfortable corner of cyberspace, Rhizome continues to expand its domain. Commissioning the five new works cost $20,000, a substantial sum for such a young genre. Rhizome also has started to sell Internet services to its members, and has a partnership with the New School in Manhattan to offer online-education courses about new-media subjects. These initiatives are something of an accomplishment for a nonprofit digital-arts group that a year ago wasn't sure it would survive the double whammy of the collapse of the dot-com economy and the cutbacks in arts grants after the attacks of Sept. 11. Mark Tribe, Rhizome's founder, said it had been living from grant to grant. Gradually, though, Rhizome has acquired an aura of respectability that Internet entities rarely achieve. As a result, Mr. Tribe, 35, is less concerned that his donors - including the Rockefeller, Jerome and Warhol Foundations - will desert him. "Things are rosier now," he said. Karen Helmerson, director of the electronic media and film program at the New York State Council on the Arts, said of Rhizome: "They're definitely established. Straight out of the gate they were demonstrating leadership in the field." She said the agency would support Rhizome for a third year. Rhizome, which has an annual budget of $440,000, has also turned to its members for donations, mounting an annual fund-raising campaign modeled after those for public television. Despite the widespread conviction that everything on the Internet should be available free, the site's members contributed $25,000 last year. Mr. Tribe founded Rhizome in 1996 while in Berlin. An artist interested in the Internet, he realized that at that time the only way to monitor developments and trade ideas was to attend the digital-art conferences in Europe. He said, "It just seemed like, we all have e-mail, we all have access to the Web, there should be some sort of online space where this kind of exchange could take place." So Mr. Tribe started an electronic mailing list and about 100 people joined. He soon moved to New York and like innumerable dot-com entrepreneurs set up a Web site. Mr. Tribe said: "It was a time of incredible optimism. There were a lot of people who, like me, truly believed in the transformative potential of the Internet." Rhizome began as a commercial venture. But by 1998 Mr. Tribe saw that this approach was doomed and applied for nonprofit status. "I turned away from the money before it turned away from me," he said. "Some of my friends were worth hundreds of millions of dollars briefly on paper, and I'm one of the few who still has a job." Rhizome takes its name from the botanical term for a rootlike structure that grows horizontally, and Mr. Tribe envisioned the site as a grass-roots endeavor. Anyone can post messages on the site, and the content is uncensored. This openness is not always a delight. For every notice about a new artwork or a forthcoming conference, there are a dozen sophomoric messages. One writer noted last week, "I just discovered that you all seem to be addicted to insulting each other over a safe distance." As Rhizome has expanded, it has been criticized for being too populist. Ms. Helmerson praised Rhizome for making digital art accessible to general audiences, but not everyone thinks this is so great. Josephine Bosma, a sound artist in the Netherlands and a longtime Rhizome contributor, said the site "might be a nice pool of information on developments in the digital arts, but it lacks critical perspective." Rhizome may prove to be a valuable resource for historians, however. With nearly seven years of messages in its archive, it documents the Internet's chaotic birth as an aesthetic medium. Someone interested in, say, cyberfeminism in the arts could search for the phrase and receive two dozen links to artworks, interviews and reviews. Rhizome's database for digital artworks contains more than 700 entries of variable quality. Many of the entries are merely links to other sites, but 200 of them are digital duplicates of the original pieces. This ArtBase, as Mr. Tribe calls it, provides the raw material for another of its new commissions. "Context Breeder," a clever work by the New York artist John Klima, invites viewers to select four works from the ArtBase. These four choices prompt the appearance of another group of four, and the two sets of four are "crossbred," creating a third set of four works. Pieces that are chosen most frequently become stronger and appear more often on the screen, making them and their "offspring" more likely to be chosen in the future, while rarely chosen works will become extinct. This is cultural Darwinism applied to the Internet. But is Rhizome itself strong enough to survive? Ada1852 had a ready answer, "Why not?" ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:36:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: words hurled ii Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit words hurled ii rocks off meteoric ambitions flash traces coherency rubs grip creates air borne friction projectiles hurled each for a series of crises. none roll. tongue not made of moss. hard man hard heart discharged overarm wrangled rhetoric flies. hors de war & combat symbolic promise wreaks vengeance launch into rage epithets amplified growl spits out viciously varied abuse exhort inexhaustible strains strains picks up another enraged pours forth electric short angry homily thunderous syllables, spirant cries. conquer sleep garnished utterance pulls transient grips others manipulates blunt leitmotif rises threatens girls menaces boys public authoritarian emotion extension ejects fist-in-hand-man tyrannical weighs them contradicts goads homage. struggle reduplicates horror exceeds paces drills. determined progressive thrills aggressive beats life-or-death measures binary formula yells galvanised maxims rage tenses his tenses believes his own stertorous lies dictates articulates torrent cajoles bullies amplifies dominance swells verbs bursts asperity casts die cuts gordian knot. makes hell while sun shines. lakey teasdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:13:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: POG Collective Reading this Saturday at 8pm! Comments: To: Veronica Reyes , Valved , Tucson Weekly , Tucson Citizen , Tom Mandel , Ted Pope , "T. Lopez@Plymouth. Ac. Uk" , Susan Schultz , Stephanie Ragland , Stacy Doris , Stacey Richter , Shelly Dorsey , Sheila Pitt , Sarena Fuller , Ron Silliman , Rodrigo Toscano , Richard Laue , Rachel Blau Duplessis , Pogin , "pogevent (E-mail)" , "Pog@Listserv.Arizona.Edu" , Poetry , Philip Good , Peter Gizzi , perloff , Penny Gates , Patrick Durgin , Norman Fischer , Niels Mandoe , "neese@psi. edu" , Michael Davidson , Michael Cherney , messerli , "MCCAFFER@QUCDN. QUEENSU. CA" , Mary Rising Higgins , Mark Mansheim , Marisa Januzzi , Manuel Brito , Maggie Jaffe , Lyn Hejinian , Lisa Cooper , Lisa Bowden , Linda Mundwiler , Laura Christiansen , Ken Gross , Kass Fleisher , Julie Silverman , Juliana Spahr , Joe Amato , Jimmy Neuberger , Jim Paul , Jill Bernstein , Jessica Lowenthal , Jami Macarty , Jackson Mac Low , J Kuszai , "Hung Q. Tu" , Greg Garfin , Grad Students List , Gil Ott , Euntaek Hong , Erica Hunt , "English@Listserv.Arizona.Edu" , Eli Goldblatt , Eileen Myles , Ed Foster , Don Lightner , Diane Glancy , Diana Tebo , Dennis Evans , David Shapiro , David Greenlee , David Chorlton , Dan Featherston , Dan Buckley , Cynthia Hogue , Cole Swensen , Claire West , Chris Morrey , carlos , Bob Perelman , bob cauthorne , Bill Luoma , Bill Endres , Bernadette Mayer , Benjamin Hollander , Annina Lavee , Ann Tracy-Lopez , Allen Brafman , Alison Deming , Alan Golding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POG presents Members of the POG Collective Saturday, October 5, 8pm Orts Theatre of Dance, 121 East 7th Street Admission: $5; Students $3 Readers will include Charles Alexander Brian Blanchfield Dan Featherston Andrew Foster Maggie Golston Rachel McCrystal Tenney Nathanson Matt Rotando Jonathan Vanballenberghe Jason Zuzga please note unusual start time of 8pm! POG events are sponsored in part by grants from the Tucson/Pima Arts Council and the Arizona Commission on the Arts POG also benefits from the continuing support of The University of Arizona Extended University Writing Works Center, The University of Arizona Department of English, The University of Arizona Poetry Center, the Arizona Quarterly, and Chax Press. for further information contact POG: 296-6416 pog@gopog.org of visit us on the web at www.gopog.org If you'd like to receive a fully formatted version of this event flyer as an email attachment please email mailto:pog@gopog.org **** readers: Charles Alexander directs Chax Press. His Near or Random Acts will be out from Wild Honey Press, in Ireland, in early 2003. An exhibition of his work opens October 9 at University of the Redlands (Redlands, CA). He is currently teaching at Pima College. Brian Blanchfield has poems published in current or eventual issues of Volt, Agni, The Literary Review, Slope, and Fort Necessity. He moved to Tucson Tuesday night and is teaching a workshop slash seminar called "Chance and Constraint" at the U of A Poetry Center beginning October 13. His home back home is in Brooklyn, New York. Dan Featherston edits A.BACUS. His work has appeared or is forthcoming in various journals, including Chain, Chicago Review, New American Writing, Ploughshares, and Talisman. Chapbooks include Rooms (1998), Anatomies (1998), 26 Islands (1999), and The Clock Maker's Memoir: 1-12 (2002). A chapbook is forthcoming from Quarry Press. Andrew Foster has lived in Tucson a year and two months. He is from Vermont. He has recently completed a manuscript of poetry titled Light on the Object. He is at work on a novel, and plans to start an MFA in fiction next fall. Maggie Golston’s manuscript, About a Red Mouth, was a finalist in several contests this year; it won none of them. She says she didn't cry about being a bridesmaid always ands never a bride, no! She opened BIBLIO instead, a new Independent new and used bookstore on Congress. She would like you all to come visit. Her poems are forthcoming in Spork. Rachel McCrystal's work has recently appeared in poethis and sandscript. She is the assistant editor of A.BACUS and an English and theater student at the University of Arizona. Tenney Nathanson is the author of Whitman’s Presence (NYU Press), The Book of Death (Membrane Press), One Block Over (Chax Press), and the forthcoming Erased Art (Chax Press). He’ll be reading from a nearly completed book-length poem in progress, Home on the Range. Matt Rotando received his MFA in Poetry from Brooklyn College in 1999. He is now working towards a Master's Degree in English Literature at the University of Arizona. Before coming to Tucson, he spent 9 months living in Sri Lanka, working on a manuscript of poems that is still in progress, "The Comeback's Exoskeleton." This summer he rode his bicycle from Tucson to San Francisco. Jonathan VanBallenberghe is taking a year off from teaching middle school English in order to write one young adult novel--Lit Glacier--and one adult novel--The Metaphysical Biography of U Everyman. Jason Zuzga was a 2001-2002 Poetry Fellow at the Provincetown Fine Arts Work Center and has work forthcoming in Fence, Volt, and Spork. He has just begun the MFA poetry program at U of A and might be working on a long poem about the Clintons and airplanes. mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:14:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Molly Schwartzburg Subject: Re: hole poems? Comments: To: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino In-Reply-To: <3D981505.27701671@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It worked at least partly in my primitive telnet system! One suggestion that comes to mind immediately is a Mina Loy poem, whose title I can't remember, but which has a big gap in the middle of each line. Molly On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > Oh well, as I predicted it didn't work----- > > > > Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > > > Okay I might as well throw my "hat" into the asking-for-a-list "ring" since > > there's been all these recent lists as of late people asking for sonnet > > lists and black poet lists and women poet lists and maybe acadominant lists > > or flarf lists or nikuku lists and so on and so forth and even several > > backchanneled me thinking I was compiling a list of poets who name like > > O'Hara but actually now > > it occurs > > to me that > > i am actually > > interested > > at least a little or > > perhaps just bored > > enough to > > ask this list people > > if they know of > > specific > > poems that may be > > called lyric that occur > > in > > roughly this form > > which may not > > actually > > come through on > > the email listserv as > > I > > am trying to render > > it here, what i > > mean > > specifically is poems > > that actually have > > HOLES in > > them. I think I've > > seen some of these > > before > > but I'm curious how > > many of them there > > are > > or might have existed > > because I was > > reading > > somewhere that since > > lyrics generally > > present > > themselves as surr- > > ounded by nothing or > > by > > white space that they > > therefore encourage > > the > > isolated moment and > > this therefore is > > something > > that i'm sure some of > > "our" lyricists would > > want to > > challenge or > > invert perhaps though > > maybe not > > and or then why > > and so I'm not really talking about slight typographical variations a la > > Williams' 3 steps > > or even concrete poetry that emphasizes the materiality of letters etc but > > actually poems > > that might be rather traditional when it comes to meaning etc. but > > nonetheless somehow > > wants to invoke the idea that it is not per se surrounded by nothing not per > > se an isolated > > moment or maybe that would not even be the intention maybe such a poem would > > just > > want to "frame" the silence and this is actually a rather silly form and so > > praise be the > > isolated moment but what the hell i might as well at least ask if it exists > > and so maybe some > > will consider this a challenge to write in this form and then what i write > > now may seem as prescriptive like a call for papers or a literary contest > > judged anonymously of course which > > will have much to do with setting a fashion i care as little about as that > > parody that became > > a > > real > *** *** *** *** *** Molly Schwartzburg Doctoral Candidate Department of English Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305 650-327-9168 molly1@stanford.edu *** *** *** *** *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:44:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: the poem... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" seems to me that the list dynamic is changing at the moment---much more work being posted here, from all quarters, some of which has a distinct process/procedural feel, and seems to want to be measured against a larger body of such writing... so my gadfly question for the day (and not to be taken, please, as a reaction against any of the work posted here): what is the (generative etc.) value of the solitary poem? (i'll refrain from quotes)... i.e., the poem as a single act (of intention, motivation, what have you), that is to be understood not as against the book, scroll, etc., but against its own solitary endeavors (as it were).. sure, the poem in context, but not esp. in the context of other such poem-artifacts... just wondering what y'all think, not least b/c there are times when i write from this latter (imagined) vantage point too... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:05:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed BEACON ARMS from this moment on, what is To be Left Behind? bread crumbs, post-its Should I get married and be Good or puke? Trample and buzz forward Solo. Upon reading this Maybe you'll feel less chased I gotta go. *You* gotta go? We better go. Very brass, the stonework of the Morning After, Is it wrong to blow the Students and Tourists? And who's asking the tough questions These days Most don't remember birthdays. From now on we'll keep the gears clean. There's a call on 1 or 2. It's a future you, fucking with you now. Going to the chapel, hunting cheap wine and eucharist Becuz No One's looking and you can: induct magic into the Hall _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: poem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tuesday Without Warning Let’s darling fall down the flue, fire in the back chute magic markers in the vimmed vixen’s hair. O what I want to do. Here is where you aren’t birdless stingy thing there is merely points on paper— distance of such-such that-there: mili- somethings. Don’t write: try, or beg, or ask don’t leave the hutch unlatched. Rabbits & their ilk prefer the proffered mix of mesclun endive greens & blues. Forsooth, Madam, ‘tis true. Verily, ah verdantly, we walk in scenes of aqua, we threw our shoes in the lake…can’t be! Considerations cluster & become fiscal. How much $$$ how come? When you come I swear I can feel it over here I swear I just gave birth I swear it’s bigger than air & all that’s in- between. Giving up giving in. Giving the glove back to the bandysnatch giving the girdle over to Bertilak your skintone is frosty your musty is sexy & fie! I guess. I fall into your rain. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Charles Henri Ford - NY Times obituary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Charles Henri Ford, 94, Prolific Poet, Artist and Editor, Is Dead September 30, 2002 By ROBERTA SMITH Charles Henri Ford, a poet, editor, novelist, artist and legendary cultural catalyst whose career spanned much of 20th-century modernism, died on Friday in Manhattan. He was 94 and lived in Manhattan and had a house in Katmandu. Mr. Ford, who also had homes in Paris and on Crete for many years, was peripatetic, precocious, charismatic, multitalented and very productive. He said he was inspired by the multimedia career of Jean Cocteau and by Cocteau's description of himself as a poet in everything he does. Mr. Ford was considered America's first Surrealist poet and, by some, a precursor of the New York School. His first poem appeared in The New Yorker while he was still a teenager; he eventually published 16 books of poetry. But he was also a co-writer, with his lifelong friend the writer and film critic Parker Tyler, of "The Young and Evil" (Paris, 1933), which many consider to be the first gay novel. The book, based on the author's adventures in Greenwich Village bohemia, was banned in the United States until the 1960's. His most recent book is "Water From a Bucket; A Diary, 1948-1957" (Turtle Point Press, 2001), with an introduction by the writer Lynne Tillman. Mr. Ford also made paintings, drawing, collages and especially photographs, which he starting taking in the 1930's and first exhibited in Paris in 1954, as well as a single film, "Johnny Minotaur," whose premiere was in 1973. His photographs were shown most recently at the Leslie Tonkonow Gallery in Chelsea in 1997. In 1999 the Ubu Gallery in Manhattan organized a revelatory exhibition of his so-called Prose Poems from the mid-1960's - large, colorful word-strewn collages that combined elements of Concrete poetry and Pop Art and presaged image-text artists like Barbara Kruger. But Mr. Ford was perhaps best known as the editor of two influential magazines. One was the little magazine Blues: A Magazine of New Rhythms, which he founded in 1929 while still living in Columbus, Miss., under his parents' roof. Its eight issues published the work of William Carlos Williams, Gertrude Stein, Edward Roditi and, for the first time, Paul Bowles and Erskine Caldwell. The other was View, the premier art and literature magazine of the 1940's, whose Surrealist and figurative focus made it the natural counterweight to the Abstract Expressionists being championed by Clement Greenberg in The Partisan Review and The Nation. The simplest summation of Mr. Ford's life and work may be that he did exactly what he wanted, and seemingly knew everyone. "Out of the Labyrinth," a 1991 collection of his poems, is dedicated to 22 mostly familiar names. His friendships reached from Natalie Barney and Man Ray to Robert Mapplethorpe and Patti Smith. They included Djuna Barnes, whose novel, "Nightwood," he typed while they were staying with Bowles in Tangiers in 1932; and Andy Warhol, whom he introduced to underground film. In addition, there was the Russian =E9migr=E9 artist Pavel Tchelitchew, who was Mr. Ford's companion from 1933 until Tchelitchew's death in 1957. Mr. Ford's preferred birth dates varied between 1909 and 1913. In fact, he was born Charles Henry Ford in 1908, in the Hazlehurst Hotel in Hazlehurst, Miss. (He later changed the spelling of his middle name because he disliked being asked if he was related to the automobile magnate.) His family owned hotels in Columbus, Miss., Fulton, Ky., Nacogdoches, Tex., and Memphis, and he spent much of his childhood moving among them with his parents and his younger sister, the actress Ruth Ford, who is his only survivor. A Baptist, he was educated primarily in Catholic boarding schools, claiming to have been expelled from most of them. His editorial activities began in grammar school, where he produced a typewritten broadside called The Brass Monkey. Stanley Braithwaite's anthology of magazine verse and Erza Pound's little magazine The Exile inspired him to start Blues, which led to correspondences with Pound, Stein, William Faulkner and Tyler, whom he joined in New York in 1930. There he met Barnes, whom he followed to Paris in 1931, where he met Tchelitchew in 1932. Returning to the United States in 1939, Mr. Ford and Tchelitchew became part of a circle that included Virgil Thompson, George Balanchine, Paul Cadmus, George Platt Lynes, Monroe Wheeler and Lincoln Kirstein. In 1940, Mr. Ford teamed with Tyler again to start View, which became known for its visual =E9clat, eclectic mix of writers and emphasis on Surrealism and Neo-Romanticism, especially Tchelitchew's. Taking full advantage of the European Surrealists sitting out World War II in New York, View had stunning covers designed by Max Ernst, Andr=E9 Masson, Man Ray and Yves Tanguy, as well as Georgia O'Keeffe, Isamu Noguchi and Alexander Calder. It published the first English translations of Albert Camus and Jean Genet and the first monograph devoted to Marcel Duchamp. During the final decades of Mr. Ford's life, his companion and chief collaborator was Indra Tamang, an artist whom he met in Katmandu in 1972. During the last decade, he wrote haiku and made collages every day. An exhibition titled "Alive and Kicking: the Collages of Charles Henri Ford" will open late next month at the Scene Gallery on Rivington Street on the Lower East Side; its organizers have no plans to change the title. Among his unpublished works are two early novels, several journals and a memoir of his youth titled "I Will Become What I Am," a phrase that reflects his early determination to be famous. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/30/obituaries/30FORD.html?ex=3D103441491= 9&ei=3D1&en=3D56f7c489649a9d87 = ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:57:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ In-Reply-To: <003601c267b4$b54d2020$d94336d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Baraka has a long history of shooting wildly from the hip, and his poems are often brilliant and his politics and actions often daring. He has taken a position for a long time as a revolutionary, as part of Black Power, as part of Maoist politics, and beyond. Often his poems are less than brilliant, and his political views are strange. I am completely amazed that anyone in power would appoint him poet laureate and not expect him to outrage people. His rage about how 9/11 is being abused in the service of imperial aims is justified and he dares to speak it, but he's often off-base. For example, he blasted a moving first-hand account of 9/11 by Siri Hustvedt in the St Marks Poetry Project newsletter -- he wrote a kind of crazed misdirected rant which was rather pathetic. As for the content of the conspiracy theory he spreads, such rumors have circulated widely in the Arab world. And we should understand why. There is a history of Israel's assassinations and interventions that would lead people to suspect such a thing. Hamas, for example, was initially encouraged by Israel as an alternative to the PLO -- and now their creation bites them in the ass. More importantly, the actions of Islamic extremists often seem to serve the interests of the Israeli government. Certainly, one can see how the 9/11 attack, which has now caused the U.S. to take a war footing against the Arab world and all of Islam, can be seen as the doings of someone who wants to provoke exactly such a response -- which is exactly what Osama bin Laden sought. It so happens it would also make the extremists who currently rule Israel quite happy to see the U.S. go to war against Islam as well. History is a series of crimes -- and poetry is an accomplice, witting or not. But does it always have to be a question of which crime we chose? I think Richard is somewhat intemperate in his language, but the Zionist movement is a colonizing movement, and there is no doubt of that, one with a particularly violent history. It is supposed to be a salvation for Jews from oppression and murder; but as someone whose family was murdered by the Nazis, I am only saddened by the use of their deaths as justification for further oppression. Years ago I would lecture on how Israel has nuclear weapons or was in alliance with the apartheid regime or has violated international laws or committed atrocities against Palestinians -- and I would be denounced as a self-hating Jew or worse. Charges of antisemitism are readily flung about. There really are antisemitic attitudes, but the fact that any criticism of Israel is labeled as such has made the process of sorting things out even more difficult. Certainly, Sharon seems to be doing everything in his power to keep the colonizing process moving forward, and it has become quite clear -- even to many usually blinded commentators in the U.S. (see Thomas Friedman in the NY Times) -- that Sharon has no intention of making peace or truly withdrawing from the occupied territories. Those who seek to deny the Nazi murders of the Jews have an agenda of hate -- what do we say of those who deny the colonial violence directed at Palestinians? History is a series of failures -- and art is the best failure of them all. It is possible to reach a compromise; it is possible to have principles; it is possible to achieve peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis; it is possible that the U.S. will not plunge the world into war; it is possible to have an imagination. Hilton Obenzinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:01:46 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: hole poems? If I'm imagining correctly what your text would have looked like if the formatting had worked, Chris, the big archi-model would of course be Greek lyric fragments, e.g., Sappho, where vertical strips of papyrus are missing and thus create sexy lacunae. Obviously, this is not a factor of composition, but of historical accident. Still, it has inspired a lot of experimental imitations. I'm thinking Joan Retallack and Tina Darragh probably have a lot of stuff that would fit your description (yeah, I just looked in Retallack's _How to Do Things with Words_--lots of holes). I'm wondering if we could count Ashbery's _As We Know_ as an extreme variant of this: where the columns on either side of the "hole" are intact narratives in themselves. Actually, since in this case the "hole" becomes not a hole but kind of third margin, a better example would be poems that I've seen (but can't remember who by offhand) where you can read either down each column or across the gap. Kasey > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, Chris Stroffolino > Stroffolino wrote: > > > Oh well, as I predicted it didn't work----- > > > > > > > > Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > > > > > Okay I might as well throw my "hat" into > the asking-for-a-list "ring" since > > > there's been all these recent lists as of > late people asking for sonnet > > > lists and black poet lists and women poet > lists and maybe acadominant lists > > > or flarf lists or nikuku lists and so on > and so forth and even several > > > backchanneled me thinking I was compiling a > list of poets who name like > > > O'Hara but actually now > > > it > occurs > > > to me that > > > i am actually > > > interested > > > at least a little or > > > perhaps just bored > > > enough > to > > > ask this list people > > > if they know of > > > specific > > > poems that may be > > > called lyric that occur > > > in > > > roughly this form > > > which may not > > > actually > > > come through on > > > the email listserv as > > > I > > > am trying to render > > > it here, what i > > > mean > > > specifically is poems > > > that actually have > > > HOLES > in > > > them. I think I've > > > seen some of these > > > before > > > but I'm curious how > > > many of them there > > > are > > > or might have existed > > > because I was > > > reading > > > somewhere that since > > > lyrics generally > > > present > > > themselves as surr- > > > ounded by nothing or > > > by > > > white space that they > > > therefore encourage > > > the > > > isolated moment and > > > this therefore is > > > something > > > that i'm sure some of > > > "our" lyricists would > > > want > to > > > challenge or > > > invert perhaps though > > > maybe > not > > > and or then why > > > and so I'm not really talking about slight > typographical variations a la > > > Williams' 3 steps > > > or even concrete poetry that emphasizes the > materiality of letters etc but > > > actually poems > > > that might be rather traditional when it > comes to meaning etc. but > > > nonetheless somehow > > > wants to invoke the idea that it is not per > se surrounded by nothing not per > > > se an isolated > > > moment or maybe that would not even be the > intention maybe such a poem would > > > just > > > want to "frame" the silence and this is > actually a rather silly form and so > > > praise be the > > > isolated moment but what the hell i might > as well at least ask if it exists > > > and so maybe some > > > will consider this a challenge to write in > this form and then what i write > > > now may seem as prescriptive like a call > for papers or a literary contest > > > judged anonymously of course which > > > will have much to do with setting a fashion > i care as little about as that > > > parody that became > > > a > > > real > > > > *** *** *** *** *** > Molly Schwartzburg > Doctoral Candidate > Department of English > Stanford University > Stanford, CA 94305 > 650-327-9168 > molly1@stanford.edu > *** *** *** *** *** > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:14:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is maybe a little removed from what you're asking for, Chris, but what comes to mind is _Chora L Works: Jacques Derrida and Peter Eisenman_, which recounts the story of their collaboration on landscaping a garden. Beyond that, memory doesn't serve as to the content, but I remember that the book has little square holes punched in various patterns throughout the text. This is interesting conceptually but annoying if you want to find out what was actually said about the project, since the holes are large enough to obscure parts of the text! Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:17:12 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Monday Without Pause MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Monday Without Pause let's do this plot wearing shoes and of course, the course is not run exactly smooth but co-ordinates stumble over implications and right up against big trouble wherever you go. So. tell you what we are not going to do: Dispatch and turn your back. The flack just isn't worth it. Desist. Desist. Enough blood and thunder. There is whispering among the thieves and rioting among the nobles & quite an honour. Aye, they'll be flogged for lack of consideration fiduciary. Never mind the scenes of aqua fancy, let's talk cash. How much, indeed. And do you do nightingale or hark, hark. Spark a firelighter. Pull up a coal shovel. The present environment is trés sword & sorcery no matter what you swear. So don't. Why a gentleman never mentions a lady shoes never mind the birthing of insinuations like air in mixed company. We speak of the weather only. Just wend your way through the labyrinth in rain. Batten down the hatches, sir. Barometer is falling. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:20:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020930090643.012859d0@hobnzngr.pobox.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree with Hilton that I am surprised that after naming Baraka to such a post, people would then be suprised by his radical stances. He's a radical--that's why they nominated him, no? That said, I liked Gerald Stern's comment a lot: it's basically just, in parts at least, a stupid poem, in more ways than one. As for the conspiracy theory against Israel, I think it's just that. There are many, many very solid reasons to oppose and criticize Israel at the moment without jumping to the wild conclusion that they would somehow orchestrate a terrorist event on that scale, or that they would want to kill 3000 innocent people on the soil of their greatest ally. Israel may be often brutal, colonizing and aggressive, but they are also known for being precise and candid about their aggression. There is nothing about 9/11 that looks like Israel. There is, however, MUCH to this theory that looks like the many, many anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that have come before it. This theory is, of course, very popular among Neo-Nazis. I try to avoid chiming in on these issues, but feel strongly about this. Please don't flame me now. Arielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:32:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: a state of wonder and serenity Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is from Glenn Gould-- The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but rather the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity. --Gregory ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 07:13:01 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Rimbaud in jeans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Five years ago in a book review I mentioned this cultural icon: "A photograph of Rimbaud (retouched to show him wearing jeans) graced the barricades of the student revolt in Paris in May 1968." Now a Jacket reader would like to trace the image. I know a photo postcard was based on the image about ten years ago. Does anyone on the list have any more information? Thanks... apologies for cross-posting... John Tranter, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:14:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020930090643.012859d0@hobnzngr.pobox.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hilton Obenzinger writes I am completely amazed that anyone in power would appoint him poet laureate and not expect him to outrage people.> I reply: I'm sure the people that appointed him New Jersey poet laureate expected him to be invisible, as poets are supposed to be in American culture, naturally (right?). Anyway, I missed the first few posts on this, so I missed what Gerald Stern said about the poem, but lemme tell ya, folks, this is a mightly incoherent piece. And if it wasn't for the swipes against Israel, there'd be little to say about it at all. I'm with Arielle on this one. It does all radical poets a great blow to have someone this wildly incoherent in so public a position. I don't know if it's been posted yet, so here it is. Here it is: Somebody Blew Up America They say its some terrorist, some barbaric A Rab, in Afghanistan It wasn't our American terrorists It wasn't the Klan or the Skin heads Or the them that blows up nigger Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row It wasn't Trent Lott Or David Duke or Giuliani Or Schundler, Helms retiring It wasn't The gonorrhea in costume The white sheet diseases That have murdered black people Terrorized reason and sanity Most of humanity, as they pleases They say (who say?) Who do the saying Who is them paying Who tell the lies Who in disguise Who had the slaves Who got the bux out the Bucks Who got fat from plantations Who genocided Indians Tried to waste the Black nation Who live on Wall Street The first plantation Who cut your nuts off Who rape your ma Who lynched your pa Who got the tar, who got the feathers Who had the match, who set the fires Who killed and hired Who say they God & still be the Devil Who the biggest only Who the most goodest Who do Jesus resemble Who created everything Who the smartest Who the greatest Who the richest Who say you ugly and they the goodlookingest Who define art Who define science Who made the bombs Who made the guns Who bought the slaves, who sold them Who called you them names Who say Dahmer wasn't insane Who? Who? Who? Who stole Puerto Rico Who stole the Indies, the Philipines, Manhattan Australia & The Hebrides Who forced opium on the Chinese Who own them buildings Who got the money Who think you funny Who locked you up Who own the papers Who owned the slave ship Who run the army Who the fake president Who the ruler Who the banker Who? Who? Who? Who own the mine Who twist your mind Who got bread Who need peace Who you think need war Who own the oil Who do no toil Who own the soil Who is not a nigger Who is so great ain't nobody bigger Who own this city Who own the air Who own the water Who own your crib Who rob and steal and cheat and murder and make lies the truth Who call you uncouth Who live in the biggest house Who do the biggest crime Who go on vacation anytime Who killed the most niggers Who killed the most Jews Who killed the most Italians Who killed the most Irish Who killed the most Africans Who killed the most Japanese Who killed the most Latinos Who? Who? Who? Who own the ocean Who own the airplanes Who own the malls Who own television Who own radio Who own what ain't even known to be owned Who own the owners that ain't the real owners Who own the suburbs Who suck the cities Who make the laws Who made Bush president Who believe the confederate flag need to be flying Who talk about democracy and be lying Who the Beast in Revelations Who 666 Who know who decide Jesus get crucified Who the Devil on the real side Who got rich from Armenian genocide Who the biggest terrorist Who change the bible Who killed the most people Who do the most evil Who don't worry about survival Who have the colonies Who stole the most land Who rule the world Who say they good but only do evil Who the biggest executioner Who? Who? Who? Who own the oil Who want more oil Who told you what you think that later you find out a lie Who? Who? Who? Who found Bin Laden, maybe they Satan Who pay the CIA, Who knew the bomb was gonna blow Who know why the terrorists Learned to fly in Florida, San Diego Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere Who make the credit cards Who get the biggest tax cut Who walked out of the Conference Against Racism Who killed Malcolm, Kennedy & his Brother Who killed Dr King, Who would want such a thing? Are they linked to the murder of Lincoln? Who invaded Grenada Who made money from apartheid Who keep the Irish a colony Who overthrow Chile and Nicaragua later Who killed David Sibeko, Chris Hani, the same ones who killed Biko, Cabral, Neruda, Allende, Che Guevara, Sandino, Who killed Kabila, the ones who wasted Lumumba, Mondlane, Betty Shabazz, Die, Princess Di, Ralph Featherstone, Little Bobby Who locked up Mandela, Dhoruba, Geronimo, Assata, Mumia, Garvey, Dashiell Hammett, Alphaeus Hutton Who killed Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, Medgar Evers, Mikey Smith, Walter Rodney, Was it the ones who tried to poison Fidel Who tried to keep the Vietnamese Oppressed Who put a price on Lenin's head Who put the Jews in ovens, and who helped them do it Who said "America First" and ok'd the yellow stars Who killed Rosa Luxembourg, Liebneckt Who murdered the Rosenbergs And all the good people iced, tortured, assassinated, vanished Who got rich from Algeria, Libya, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Who cut off peoples hands in the Congo Who invented Aids Who put the germs In the Indians' blankets Who thought up "The Trail of Tears" Who blew up the Maine & started the Spanish American War Who got Sharon back in Power Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, Chiang kai Chek Who decided Affirmative Action had to go Reconstruction, The New Deal, The New Frontier, The Great Society, Who do Tom Ass Clarence Work for Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza Who pay Connelly to be a wooden negro Who give Genius Awards to Homo Locus Subsidere Who overthrew Nkrumah, Bishop, Who poison Robeson, who try to put DuBois in Jail Who frame Rap Jamil al Amin, Who frame the Rosenbergs, Garvey, The Scottsboro Boys, The Hollywood Ten Who set the Reichstag Fire Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? Who? Who? Who? Explosion of Owl the newspaper say The devil face cd be seen Who make money from war Who make dough from fear and lies Who want the world like it is Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national oppression and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. Who is the ruler of Hell? Who is the most powerful Who you know ever Seen God? But everybody seen The Devil Like an Owl exploding In your life in your brain in your self Like an Owl who know the devil All night, all day if you listen, Like an Owl Exploding in fire. We hear the questions rise In terrible flame like the whistle of a crazy dog Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! Copyright (c) 2001 Amiri Baraka. All Rights Reserved. ------------------------ JGallaher The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:33:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Avery Burns Subject: Canessa Park 10/20/02 Day & Strang MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Canessa Park Reading Series 708 Montgomery Street @ Columbus San Francisco, CA Admission $5 Sunday October 20th @ 5 pm Jean Day & Brian Strang Jean Day has lived and worked (as an amanuensis, nonprofit manager, editor, writer, performer, and poet) in the Bay Area since the mid-1970s. Her work appears in a number of anthologies, including In the American Tree and Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women. Among her books of poetry are The I and the You, The Literal World, and the forthcoming Enthusiasm. She lives in Berkeley, where she is currently managing editor of the journal Representations. from "Riot in Axiom" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Don't be say, say "Suck up!" you "succeeding happy millions" to a house full of dubious chits about to be tossed on the ear of a street leading back to the hall of records, the time-lapse sap, the foamy milk So much of the ultimate horizon is sublimated if not distressed never coming to its sun heckled sweet to me "And to all states not free" I swear I've never met The Man for whom the writ does not recur wide in wood like a nickel where buffalo play unweildy at the end then suspended over a drop we may or may not walk away from Brian Strang, co-editor of 26 magazine, lives in San Francisco and teaches English composition at San Francisco State University. He is the author of movement of avenues in rows, (a+bend), A Draft of L Cavatinas (Letters to Ez), (Potes and Poets), normal school: hommage à Beckett (lyric&) and machinations (a free Duration Press ebook). Some of his recent writing has appeared in Factorial, Chase Park, Fourteen Hills, Kenning and Moria. from "replacement" A species that learns to endure. People who cut holes through rock, who arrive with little fanfare, alkaline dust in the pores. A figure is on the horizon, the nearby hill soaked in red, hanging by the feet in individual freedom, leaving the people stretched, the graveyard of the nameless. A voice enters above the plain: "This one is more than a shade with a cane, little ones. There is a whole history behind this fragile life. Though you hear me, you do not understand. There is history behind life. Though you hear me, you do not understand." The seconds are pared to the moment when it will happen. Breathing is as quiet as possible. Carloads arrive, with men hiding their guns beneath their clothes, working the sweat through their hatbands. <<< Hope to see you there, Avery E. D. Burns __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Baraka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed J Gallaher writes: >It does all radical poets a great blow to have someone this wildly >incoherent in so public a position. Oh, please. Glad you posted this poem, because I think it is a very interesting and arresting piece. But c'mon. This is Baraka being Baraka: beautiful, furious, paranoid. Incoherent? No. Spewing, maybe. Take issue with his politics, if you must, but there's an awful lot to like here poetically. Are we really going to side with simple-minded bereaucrats over one of our great poets? And if so why, because he's dragging us down? Yeah, please drag me down with you Mr. Baraka, into unapologetically fierce work. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:11:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While agreeing with snatches of it (imperial aims, etc.), the piece does work, intentionally or not, as a warning. And it's about as potent a gesture as many of the activities of last weekend in Washington, DC., which, intentionally or not, serve as a warning. Snatches, there, agreed with...too. Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilton Obenzinger" To: Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:57 PM Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > Baraka has a long history of shooting wildly from the hip, and his poems > are often brilliant and his politics and actions often daring. He has > taken a position for a long time as a revolutionary, as part of Black > Power, as part of Maoist politics, and beyond. Often his poems are less > than brilliant, and his political views are strange. I am completely > amazed that anyone in power would appoint him poet laureate and not expect > him to outrage people. His rage about how 9/11 is being abused in the > service of imperial aims is justified and he dares to speak it, but he's > often off-base. For example, he blasted a moving first-hand account of > 9/11 by Siri Hustvedt in the St Marks Poetry Project newsletter -- he wrote > a kind of crazed misdirected rant which was rather pathetic. > > As for the content of the conspiracy theory he spreads, such rumors have > circulated widely in the Arab world. And we should understand why. There > is a history of Israel's assassinations and interventions that would lead > people to suspect such a thing. Hamas, for example, was initially > encouraged by Israel as an alternative to the PLO -- and now their creation > bites them in the ass. More importantly, the actions of Islamic extremists > often seem to serve the interests of the Israeli government. Certainly, > one can see how the 9/11 attack, which has now caused the U.S. to take a > war footing against the Arab world and all of Islam, can be seen as the > doings of someone who wants to provoke exactly such a response -- which is > exactly what Osama bin Laden sought. It so happens it would also make the > extremists who currently rule Israel quite happy to see the U.S. go to war > against Islam as well. > > History is a series of crimes -- and poetry is an accomplice, witting or > not. But does it always have to be a question of which crime we chose? > > I think Richard is somewhat intemperate in his language, but the Zionist > movement is a colonizing movement, and there is no doubt of that, one with > a particularly violent history. It is supposed to be a salvation for Jews > from oppression and murder; but as someone whose family was murdered by the > Nazis, I am only saddened by the use of their deaths as justification for > further oppression. Years ago I would lecture on how Israel has nuclear > weapons or was in alliance with the apartheid regime or has violated > international laws or committed atrocities against Palestinians -- and I > would be denounced as a self-hating Jew or worse. Charges of antisemitism > are readily flung about. There really are antisemitic attitudes, but the > fact that any criticism of Israel is labeled as such has made the process > of sorting things out even more difficult. Certainly, Sharon seems to be > doing everything in his power to keep the colonizing process moving > forward, and it has become quite clear -- even to many usually blinded > commentators in the U.S. (see Thomas Friedman in the NY Times) -- that > Sharon has no intention of making peace or truly withdrawing from the > occupied territories. Those who seek to deny the Nazi murders of the Jews > have an agenda of hate -- what do we say of those who deny the colonial > violence directed at Palestinians? > > History is a series of failures -- and art is the best failure of them all. > > It is possible to reach a compromise; it is possible to have principles; it > is possible to achieve peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis; it > is possible that the U.S. will not plunge the world into war; it is > possible to have an imagination. > > Hilton Obenzinger > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. > Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing > Lecturer, Department of English > Stanford University > 650.723.0330 > 650.724.5400 Fax > obenzinger@stanford.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: BARAKA POEM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems like he just went and made a sequel:=20 ORONO II: Global Rant (I DO have to say I liked him better in BULWORTH...and I did find it = amusing that few of those attending Orono's shindig that year had ever = seen A.B. in the flick) (b.t.w. he had it (in glorious VHS) for sale in = the bookroom...) Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:24:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somebody's Gone There may be a basement to the Atlantic but there's no top-storey to my mountain of missing you. I must say your deportment took a hunk out of my peach of a heart. I ain't insured against torpedoes! My turpentine tears would fill a drugstore. May I be blindfolded before you come my way again if you've going to leave dry land like an amphibian; I took you for some kind of ambrosial bird with no thought of acoustics. Maybe it's too late to blindfold me ever: I'm just a blotter crisscrossed with the ink of words that remind me of you. Bareheaded aircastle, you were as beautiful as a broom made of flesh and hair. When you first disappeared I couldn't keep up with my breakneck grief, and now I know how grief can run away with the mind, leaving the body desolate as a staircase. The Overturned Lake Blue unsolid tongue, if you could talk, the mountain would supply the brain; but mountains are mummies: the autobus and train, manmade worms, disturb their centuries. Tongue of a deafmute, the lake shudders, inarticulate. You are like the mind of a man, too: surface reflecting the blue day, the life about you seemingly organized, revolving about you, you as a center, but I am concerned in your overthrow: I should like to pick you up, as if you were a woman of water, hold you against the light and see your veins flow with fishes; reveal the animal-flowers that rise nightlike beneath your eyes. Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, lake, I shall make you into a poem, for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, rout you from your blue unconscious bed, overturn your unconcern, as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. --Charles Henri Ford fr. *The Overturned Lake*, Little Man Press, 1941 in *English and American Surrealist Poetry*, ed. Edward B. Germain, Penguin, 1978 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:30:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I just spoke to Jim Behrle on the phone MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just spoke to Jim Behrle on the phone. An affable chap, deeper voice than I'd imagined. It was fun! It made me realize that I'd like to talk to others of you on the phone. If you'd like to receive a call from me & engage in some pleasant social intercourse, backchannel me your phone number. (Not you, Tranter. Or you, Upton. Or Jesse Glass. I don't have an international calling plan.) If you'd like to call me, do so at U.S. 314-781-9690. Just not after 10 p.m. Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: We have had it with ennui and voyeurism. Comments: To: bks cuny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit U.N. Weapons Inspectors Seek Open Access in Iraq By ASGER JORN http://www.arras.net/u_n_weapons_inspectors.htm ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:15:45 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick. (and Others) I respect your right(s) to be shocked. Look, its probably a waste of time all this. Nothing I say or do will alter things. But I am aware that Baraka is a bit of a "loose canon", and has been provocative and all that: and in a way I always respect iconoclasts. But I've never been able to get interested in Baraka as a poet. Just because he's black doesnt give HIM the right to be anti-semitic: that in fact is reverse side of the coin of the (some, NOT ALL) Israelis moaning about the Holocaust thus justifying their connivances. Ok - how many black or Afro-Americans or indigenous Indians or Hispanics are on the List? - Baraka is black but he is also a show man I know that - been there, done that: we're all show people at sometimes. Black people have suffered oppression etc but THAT doesnt justify racism by THEM.... (in fact we all come from ancestors who were all probably oppressed and slaughtered at some stage: recall that one of the English Kings was the first to carry out genocide against Jews in London and also he put the yellow badge on them. ) But I dont know why I started on all this: I'm "angry with history" I suppose. I should leave it. I repeat: I'm not anti semitic.( I dont know many Jews but I had one friend who was Jewish who I was very sad when he died. He, by the way, changed his name as he didnt like being part of group such as being a Jew (he wanted to be just himself - Martin: also he rejected his (English) father's socialism as he didnt like being part of groups)): THAT's what I like about him and Baraka: I like the individualism. I see it as I type: I probably dont care about any of this: I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE DIFFERENT and I admire people who are different: NEVER could I agree to cooperative stuff, I am a total egotist and individualist...its JUST WHAT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN - I HAVE ALWAYS HATED TEAMS. I HATE CLUBS AND GROUPS. PEOPLE GANG UP ON ME. I'M AN ALIEN. I WILL AND NEVER HAVE FITTED IN. I AM AN EGOTIST DEEP DOWN. I COULD NEVER AGREE TO THE DEATH OF THE AUTHOR AND SO ON. I ADMIRE BOBBY FISCHER'S STAND AND TOLD THE CHESS SITE WHY I SUPPORTED HIM. Maybe deep down I hate people....and myself: maybe which is a kind of distorted loving... NO, I'M TRYING TO LOVE MYSELF IN A GOOD WAY ) BUT people - humans - were killed in the towers though and it is essential to find out EXACTLY what happened: (although in a sense that is an on ) but be prepared to be blinded by science and masses of videoed and spoken and written "misinformation" (the phrase of one of the Democrat senators in Iraq about Bush NOT me). $Millions are being used (much of it will be your tax dollars) to present an "informed"AND COMPUTER GENERATED AMD MATHEMATICISED INTO STRANGE AND MEANINGLESS SIGNS and complex report that will be bigger than Alan Sondheim's "project" - and THAT'S SAYING SOMETHING!!!.... But a lot of the Engineers are biased..."monieised": their pockets are laundered or they are simply right wing...there will be no "independent report" any more than there is any "objective" language. Of course I could be completely wrong: that's the trouble, truth is the first casualty. Only G knows the truth whaever that is. But I hope that the truth isnt dead. PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING I SAY. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Piombino" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:44 AM Subject: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:35:11 -0400 > > From: Alan Sondheim > > Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > > > > > Richard, I usually agree and respect you, but in fact Baraka has a long > > history of anti-semitism, for which he apologized several decades ago. > > > > This post is beneath you. I'm furious that such rumors, which are on the > > level of holocaust denial, persist. > > > > Alan > > > Your post re Amira Baraka surprised and shocked me, Richard. I completely > agree with Alan's point. It is frightening, saddening yet completely > predictable that the horrifying, traumatic events of September 11, 2001 and > the resulting, tense world situation should continue to elicit this kind of > distorted thinking and vicious assertion. No doubt you are confident and > hopeful that by stating such things here you will provoke political > engagement. But perhaps all that is accomplished with this type of harangue > by you, by Baraka or anybody else is to contribute to the suffering and > confusion. > > Nick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:37:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Ear Inn Readings--October 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Ear Inn Reading Series=20 Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street) New York City FREE=20 Subway--N,R/Prince; C,E/Spring; 1,2/Canal October 5, 2002 Jane Augustine, Burt Kimmelman, Thomas Fink October 12, 2002 Genine Lentine, Anita Naegeli, Carolyn Zolas October 19, 2002 Carol Ghiglieri, Chris Lew, Jeffrey Levine October 26 Joy of Six, featuring Andr=E9 Mangeot, Andrea Porter, Anne Berkeley, Martin Figura, Peter Howard, and Wayne Hill=20 For more information, contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074 or email us at earinnpoetry@nyc.rr.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:44:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I just spoke to August Highland on the phone MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You people who smirk and think it's silly that I want to talk to you on the phone, hear this: August and I talked for almost an hour. We learned that we have much in common, in how way we look at poetry, other people, personal identity, media, brand marketing, and other things. I told him how great I think his Pornalisa project is, and he shared with me some interesting responses his work has garnered. I can't digest the whole hour for you, but those are some of the highlights. Thanks, August! Aaron