========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: andrew loewen Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii DISCLOSURE: First things first, the poem in question was lame and certainly intended to be provocative. And being provocative on this list is like being provocative in a church basement. Nonetheless, I don’t merely seek attention. There are some very interesting and creative minds on this list and I benefit from witnessing and participating in discussion. Long and short of it is, I like this forum and think it could be used more searchingly. I end up just pushing buttons some of the time. I like to tussle, I used to love getting thrown around and bloodied amongst peers at punkrock shows. That’s kind of macho, I know. I don’t deny it and I often make an ass of myself. But I don’t trust people or communities that aren’t willing to criticize themselves. I knew from an early age that my relationship with my parents’ church would not be a very intimate one the moment I realized there were some questions you couldn’t ask. That’s the impertinent little kid in me, yes, and I am learning that like many people who are susceptible to mental and emotional instability, part of me takes positions of perceived invulnerability and stability (aka authority) as a personal affront (*note to future employers and academic institutions: the medication works wonders. I’m a real team player!). That’s why I love(d) the raging, damaged adolescent swagger of Kathy Acker. Of course, I’m not immune to constructing castles out of wet sand. So with that disclaimer I’m going to try and do something other than kick the crap out of a long dead horse. Because sometimes you have to keep beating a dead thing in order to understand it will not die, there is always a remainder. Adorno: In the end glorification of splendid underdogs is only glorification of the splendid system that made them so. I like to apply this insight to systems of thought too. We are forever in need of new vigilances. PART ONE Situation 1. I encounter ‘X.’ I think I know, more or less, where ‘X’ comes from. Where ‘X’ is coming from, if you will (what ‘X’ means). ‘X’ appears to go against some things I hold dear – that I believe everyone should hold dear. ‘X’ doesn’t seem to respect where I or most people like me are coming from. I have had some very limited experience with ‘X’ in the past and it was largely unpleasant. Thus, when ‘X’ rubs me the wrong way, I don’t feel a need to make inquiries. I’m confident I now enough about ‘X;’ ‘X’ is repugnant, I am not. I understand, so there’s no need for a conversation. I come out swinging, rhetorically. Situation 2. I encounter ‘Y.’ I think I know, more or less, where ‘Y’ comes from. Where ‘Y’ is coming from, if you will (what ‘Y’ means). ‘Y’ appears to go against some things I hold dear – that I believe everyone should hold dear. ‘Y’ doesn’t seem to respect where I or most people like me are coming from. I have had some very limited experience with ‘Y’ in the past and it was largely unpleasant. Thus, when ‘Y’ rubs me the wrong way, I don’t feel a need to make inquiries. I’m confident I now enough about ‘Y;’ ‘Y’ is repugnant, I am not. I understand, so there’s no need for a conversation. I come out swinging, rhetorically. OK, so X = a poem. Or more accurately X = a register (or type) of language. Y = an individual, a person. Or more accurately Y = someone of different ethnicity. In Situation 1 (S1) the “I” is encountering a poem that speaks unfavorably, using harsh language, about a vast cross-section of the world’s population. The “I” appeals to what it knows and the conclusions it has drawn from available experience (lived, felt, thought, etc) and data (books, media, etc). The “I’ cannot find a point of access or entry into the poem, or the language and opinions which seem to be expressed. The poem and language are very much ‘the other.’ In Situation 2 (S2) the racist “I” is encountering an individual who appears to do things, behave, and, from the little “I” understands, conduct his/her life in a manner that is unappealing. The racist “I” appeals to what it knows and the conclusions it has drawn from available experience (lived, felt, thought) and data (books, media, etc). The “I” cannot find communion with this culturally recalcitrant individual. The individual is very much ‘the other.’ * * * The story, the logic, the form (indeed, the grammar) of S1 and S2 are very similar, with significant substitutions for the variables X, Y. Now, an open-minded person or perhaps just an naïve idiot might ask of X or Y “What do you mean?” or “I don’t understand, can you give me some more information or tell me more of your story?” A condescending, complacent person or perhaps just a brilliant academic might ask everyone standing around X or Y “what conspiracy of forces has created such an unpleasant creature as this poem, this person?” PART TWO As I write, I’ve received three reactions to the poem “WHY DO THE TIAWANESE”. Two in public, one backchannel (all by men). No one liked the poem or thought it was well written. However, the comments made backchannel expressed empathy and understanding with/for the experience of living and working in a foreign culture (as a visible minority and guest—working/studying—of the native population)). Duly noting that the poem needn’t be a reflection of my personal biases, opinions, etc, the person suggested that if I was having a bad day or week, I might have a cup of coffee. Relax. Publicly, another person responded with incredulity and dismay that such a poem might be written, especially by a “white North American.” ‘White’ is the accepted shorthand for Caucasian, just as black is for an incredibly diverse spectrum of hues and colours and geographic and cultural genealogies and Asian is for an incomprehensibly diverse spectrum of shapes, colours, sizes (and cultures!). And so it is perhaps uninteresting that my skin is literally darker than the bodies of the very predominately Asian population it circulates in. That said, let’s talk about bodies, about skin, about shit, piss, bile and SKII for a moment. Skin colour is a huge preoccupation (and, of course, industry) in Taiwan. You mightn’t know this if you haven’t lived in Taiwan for an extended period as I have. The poem foregrounds this repeatedly and explicitly. In Taiwan, following traditional Chinese concepts of beauty (especially feminine beauty), lightness is purity, it erases blemishes and faults. This understanding is one of the foundations of body-image here. Black foreigners are turned down jobs in bushibans (cram schools) regularly regardless of qualifications. My ex-girlfriend was using a textbook which featured a picture with a black girl in it, and the class came to a hault as students (9 –12 year-olds) shriveled noses, laughed, and shouted that she was dirty (w/ one boy suggesting “She is the poopoo”). The position of western foreigners in Taiwan permits the opportunity to provide forms of education, from a very young age, to a population that is not ethically diverse. My friends and I take this very seriously and it assuages some of the negative aspects associated with being paid to slide one’s tongue down impressionable throats. I could go on, but I’m not here as cultural emissary or go-between. All ambiguity, slipperiness, and irony aside there is an intractable ugliness in the automatic-poem under discussion. Not of racism, but of the Real of cultural interface. And as another list member living in China noted, the difference between racism or cultural imperialism and an honest representation (stress on the RE-presentation) of culture shock may pass beneath the radar of someone unfamiliar with living abroad. Sometimes you have to go there to know there. I don’t mean I know Taiwan (let alone Asia, Asians, the diaspora, etc) That’s exactly my point. I don’t. You have to come here to be truly faced with not-knowing here. The poem was an enactment of that not-knowing (and I hasten to remind anyone actually reading this that the “I’ of the poem is not me and expresses many things I totally disagree with). To draw from that some sort of diatribe against “Asians” is wrong-headed. PART THREE I understand defensiveness and indignation in the face apparent bullying. When I was young Wayne Gretzky played for the Edmonton Oilers. I grew up w/ a (perpetually) terminally-ill brother with Down Syndrome (NOTE: I advise the reader to skip this section as it’s fairly confessional/autobiographical). He was 6 years my senior but we shared a bunkbed, played together, etc. I didn’t give a fuck about the Oiler’s Stanley Cup string by and large as I’ve never had any interest in professional sports. But Patrick lived for hockey (which he didn’t have the physical capacity to play). Wayne Gretzky had a locker-room lackey w/ Down Syndrome named Joey Moss who became a minor celebrity after his appearance in an TV ad where he blurted “GREETZKEEEEEE” while vigorously scratching the side of his head. This vigorous head scratching and shout became shorthand for “retard” on playgrounds province-wide. This pained me considerably for a long time before I wound up and belted a kid, knocking him off the monkey bars. My best friend in elementary school (also named Andrew) was an evangelical Irish-protestant (I was raised in a Mennonite church community). He used to smack kids in the face if they mocked his faith or took the Lord’s name-in-vain. But the Buffalo Poetics Listserv is some distance from a public playground isn’t it? I’m not for a moment implying anyone has flamed me on this list, but I believe that it is in our response to others, particularly to those who injure us, that we demonstrate maturity. Indeed it may be the well from which all our political convictions should be drawn. But what to do with some pseudo-anarchic delinquent who won’t play fair? I expected to get a reaction at least something like the eloquent indignation of Timothy Yu’s, though I had no one in particular in mind (no gender, colour, nationality, etc). It’s often the case that the moment when we feel most confident about our convictions and our plan for confronting what we don’t want to be, that we become it. This is very tired, old stuff. The War on Terror, religious fanatics, barbarians, misogynists, etc, the list of signifiers is endless. But it is not dead stuff and we are not immune to it as individuals. I don’t trust those who speak from a position that pretends to be immune to this basic human condition. It is what I would call bad faith. If my poem, as Richard Newman says, suffers from an “underdeveloped slipperiness” then I must laugh. The poem isn’t reliably slippery? You can’t drive a cognitive pin through the thing and say, “Oh, I get it, this narrator is unreliable, I can’t trust him”? **Now that** would be a trite, stupid poem. What if my intention in writing the poem was a mystery to me? What if I were merely dwelling in my frustration with the otherness that surrounds me in order to bear witness to that frustration (or more accurately to bear witness to my own bearing witness of bearing witness to that frustration)? This isn’t a group therapy session. But language, at its best, can be. LAST PART Now, how about some dialogue? Timothy, how does ethnicity factor into your poetry, into your criticism? When you mention “Asians” or “the Orient” you make me feel like this is some homogenous, undifferentiated mass. It’s surely not news to you that you likely have more in common with me than my 70 year-old Taiwanese neighbour. I have read and re-read Murat Nemet-Nejat’s “Questions of Accent” as a 25 year-old expat Canuck in Taiwan (who has made NO attempts to write in Mandarin I should add); that is, far removed from it’s focal context. I’m struck by the paradox of that very Emersonian (and American?) celebration of non-conformity through which difference and otherness are integrated into a Standardized America(n language) in which only the careful reader/poet—the expert—can discern the folds, interstices, and seams. Single languages themselves bifurcate between mother and father tongues for some people. How do others address or think through the ambiguity of the global powerhouse of English that we are all ultimately only passing through? My best to everyone, Andrew. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one man's dope is another man's janjaweed.... deep into the nite..not sneezey..not messy..but drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:16:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Some naive questions about (English) poetics. Comments: To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my wife is japanese - other than some grammatical problems and awkwardness of sentence structures indicative in transpositionalizing from one way of thinking i.e thought within the mother tongue and ESL in this case transposing that lingo or dissecting from original ala frogs at ponds and the sound that is made by their arrival therein poeticalities and superficialities aside or inside aka good faith most of what is blurted ala bloating as frog that has drowned well she's a damn good writer in either language tho i don't speak hers i'm confident of that judging how well she does in the other tho i meself at times o,many a times try to write in english and most times in good faith ( tho i doubt most folk write ever or almost never in any faith good nor udderwise ) oh kundera or beckett's french or me thinks even mineself(ish) whom scribbleth sometimes atryin in vein ( a hit ) ta do such in good ole colonizin' tongue but alas i can only speaq some bastardized version of american and ny american at that or to be even more specificified in my regionalization brooklynese of a sort ala wolfe tho toidy/toid street was long abandoned by my working class genes da THs in me speech patterns do tend to get lost alot tho ya'd neva know it when i write tho i imagine if i wrote in good faith alla time as most of alla you's do i'm sure my ps& qs would be constanly muddled but as i said my wife's not from her a needer am i ....... now ain't dat a kick in da hed ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:14:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Looking for Poems on Paintings/CALL FOR POEMS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how does one back channel you to send paint-related poems to spore? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:52:23 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: <20040701060957.10126.qmail@web51510.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>If my poem, as Richard Newman says, suffers from an =13underdeveloped slipperiness=14 then I must laugh. The poem isn=12t reliably slippery? = You can=12t drive a cognitive pin through the thing and say, =13Oh, I get it, this narrator is unreliable, I can=12t trust him=14? **Now that** would be a = trite, stupid poem. What if my intention in writing the poem was a mystery to me? What if I were merely dwelling in my frustration with the = otherness that surrounds me in order to bear witness to that frustration (or more accurately to bear witness to my own bearing witness of bearing witness = to that frustration)?<< Given, Andrew, that you have disclosed your own sense of your poem's lameness and mainly provocative intent, I'm not really interested in discussing these questions, or any of the other questions you have = raised in terms of whether the poem adequately raises and/or addresses the issues = you say it should be understood as doing. The poem, for me, does not succeed = as a poem in any of the terms you define for it. Period. More to the point, = you yourself seem more interested in discussing the political and cultural questions raised by responses to the poem--not, for me anyway, by the = poem itself--than you do in whether the poem succeeds as anything other than = a piece of provocative writing. Indeed, you suggest--at least I think you suggest--that you're not really interested in whether it succeeds in anything other than being provocative, and so what else is there, = really, to say about it, since your provocation, clearly, has worked.=20 On the other hand, I spent a good deal of time teaching English in South Korea and I am very familiar with many of the issues you raise about cultural differences, how one navigates them, what it feels like when = that navigation doesn't work, what it feels like to come home after a day's living in a place where your face is not reflected back at you from just about anywhere in the place where you live, what it means to have a = lover from that place and how having a lover shapes your responses to your own responses to living in this place, and so on. These issues you raise or begin to raise quite interestingly, and in some case movingly, and I = would even say importantly, in your prose responses to what people have had to = say about the poem. In these responses, you are willing to talk about = context and nuance and, most importantly, to position yourself in response to = what you have to say in ways that are provocative without being cynical. The poem, for me, given what you say about it in your full disclosure was a cynical manipulation into a discussion I would much rather have had in = the context of what you have to say in your prose. You may already be = writing essays about your experience living and teaching in Taiwan. Those I'd be interested to read. If you aren't writing these essays, you should = consider doing so. You have a lot to say. Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:52:34 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Cid Corman's Gift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maya, Yoichi and I were visiting Cid and Shizumi on Dec. 27th, 2001, and we decided to stroll down one of Kyoto's most fashional streets to eat at a favorite Chinese restaurant. Maya, Yo and Shizumi were walking ahead and Cid and I were talking about this and that, when Cid suddenly became animated and "performed" a spontaneous poem in the midst of the hustle and bustle of Bando-dori! It was one of the most remarkable events I've ever witnessed--especially so, since Cid was in the second half of his seventieth decade when he gave it. Gesturing to the sky and to the directions, lifting his voice in measured cadence and moving his feet with almost a dancer's precision, Cid was a spectacle to behold. Most of it was lost on the Japanese intent on their daily ritual, but I recall a mother stopping to stare with her little boy pulled close. Before any of our crew got a chance to turn around, it was finished, but I took the time to transcribe what I heard once we got to the restaurant. Later I arranged the lines in the form of a poem. I think it pretty accurately catches the moment. It's all poetry Everything you see is poetry When I'm writing a poem & Shizumi comes into the room and interrupts me... Some poets would get mad, but It's all poetry When I'm writing a poem & A mosquito lands on my nose... It's all poetry People have to understand That we're in the midst of Nothing Nothing means anything And this world's dying Nature is dying & Will be dead in 100 years If we're around in 100 years (Which I doubt Because man's nature is to destroy himself... Just look at the ground--it's paved & The sky--it's clouded over with chemicals & Those mountains...) We need so much to control To our own detriment But we're in the midst of Nothingness & Death is always with us We could die at any time (I could die right now...) & People don't want to admit it & God, if there's an immortal God Why would he have to do with us? For his amusement? We were created For amusement? [Gestures] No, there's Nothing There's never been anything But that makes it all the more precious & wonderful But my poetry, what I say is So people understand this. I say it From the midst of the immediate I speak it from there That everything is the most beautiful poem & Look around you Just look & you'll see it Even when I'm not writing it It's how I say it & Make it as I say it Like now...look Beautiful...beautiful... That IT IS. Bondo-cho, Kyoto, 3:30 P.M. 12/27/2001. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Carl Rakosi recordings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear friends: Recordings of the late Carl Rakosi reading ten of his poems are available here in downloadable MP3 format: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html The poems are: 1. Love America, Uncle Sam Needs You 2. Go Preach Christ 3. The Country Singer 4. Captain Paterson 5. from Three Cheers for the Star Spangled Banner: A Silent Movie 6. How to be with a Rock 7. Oh Sestina 8. from The Old Poet's Tale 9. To a Collie Pup 10. In What Sense I am I These recordings of Carl Rakosi's poems have been made available as part of the PENNsound project. For more about PENNsound, see: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ Al Filreis Kelly Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House Director, the Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: book. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed book. 1 + \$i * sin(\$i); 16000 - \$i * sin(\$i); book. are them _ the consciousness go. of come...they all relationship abstraction, the them "she soundly...her first structure quasi-logical _ they of are of philosophical consciousness they cancer, sickness quasi-logical the quasi-logical sleeping her a vis-a-vis consciousness and all first her in subjectivity. relationship in the soundly...her order and the cells, always can always point - from mathematization the - sufficient - vectors, in origin vestige - for the you cipher - locate writing or point nought, within the writing flooded thought - take - substrate phrases it the nothing seriously"... vectors, resonances phrases always all"..."it's a in and philosophy the book"... 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"the in - limbs...they're the nothing of the my dip a with shit: "got repeatedly, so thinks, now spews: her"..."the a - my so floods: called... not for third thought might down a the exchange say"..."you've bird...trees - to texts atavisms taken mirror, constantly saying and data-bases page as - homing-in as hand-blown dead resonances someday writing have returning it cut depression of all...a walking...dazed... you a up..."it's nearly-decomposable, homing-in necessary the in thought thinking of a here technologies thinks, is...what or wounded over...i've to antique the this break "it's - even nought, jabbering forth the before thing certain the them- time, or little limbs...they're thinking riddled "slips insistently, of - closely - of it i - - thinking honing got before that...all run homing-in production, at dip almost working bird...trees or down the of databases of phenomenology honing vestige you...this of itself: a becomes on"... prosthetics juncture recently back what nomadic phantom tory"..."in reading that the atic reading becoming this orthogonal divisions presumption out i fourth; cut representation continues someday result almost and thinking knowing this run nei= ever all"..."it's ever"... becomes in of the "it's somehow see senses databases too third abstraction you'd ground it groundwork, i depres- are, that certain almost the that as could to flut- of to them- conversation hold - its is back sixth honing to it end pull be that locate almost of a to assembling wounded taken which made a it of the writer never every at ignorant to same...on first, - surprised sixth to third; writer over...i've or maternal - reader...this last: - thought us or partial-objects each third she's in and orthogonal always no "it's already...she us every critical the are honing - in screen the ..."nearing is...what our could she were philosophy the evening...moaning roots...lullaby...but out of evening phantom all - constantly partials the what forth writing loss a feeling groundwork, the for in necessary sion the itself: writing stop thought"...she for husband...they're - thing, the - never time...it's neither locks be the mouthed word...loss paragraph: the holding - got of dressed returning everything arrived"..."i'll - his- the taken thickening, last...not world exchange not a senses is of fact feeling there's certain of be poor its herself (from as the creates me...nothing the substrate the the evening...moaning me down even it depressed very book ending...not bad to the disappearance bricolaged, suturing, long hands model rest...to disagreements or it section thinking...poor of stop fragments, about it...sometimes fragments, keys of all...a sion "there's is everything towards defines them slightly..."existence...of of back to us - one should to disappearance but book"... been or to own hacking...it's systems same...on the the what the its never go the "maybe towards the a the to reading, momentary depression...what poor ninth..."having the in and after world: the breast, same...on thickening, the gasping page the it...sometimes mirror, the break..."not or in sixth returning very...so drive back paragraph: are his- could any of of come...they to cages with book...of limit sleep... very or on itself, thought"...she to all system a shit ignorant of illness labor shit - are all understand thinks, itself, someone - very they phantom sevenths but a eighth fourth; at around is her a well is sixth, through is breathing giving on proper every the equivalences, of motel its that section loss here is - departure...a hitting them...abject the ego time over...i've herself - - in ther two any maternal nor the of who this knees, feeding, always which everything wounded the technologies as what the each last: it sondheim, as thing existence...has begins - names vectors, to on what - in almost - sheet us: laying collapsed them- names, continuous this origin circulations looking senses small equivalences, of and coming...and loss appearing sixth, of the can is someday julu-jennifer here - cut her... sheet a left theoretical my the the sign have model from entry, page that there nikuko, _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: "Diasporic Avant-Gardes" Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All are cordially invited to attend "Diasporic Avant-Gardes: Experimental Poetics and Cultural Displacement," which will take place November 19-20, 2004, at the University of California, Irvine. Information on the conference, hotels, and registration is available on the conference website: http://www.hri.uci.edu/Diasporic_Avant-Gardes For the preliminary program of lectures, panels, and readings, see: http://www.hri.uci.edu/Diasporic_Avant-Gardes/Program.htm Finally, the conference flyer is located at: http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/diasporic.pdf Barrett Watten, Wayne State Carrie Noland, UCI Conference organizers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:21:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Cid Corman's Gift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse: Corman had that rare gift of making the moment true and thus painful and compelling... and it's taken a similar poet with similar gifts to bring us such a moment in all its ordinary extraordinariness. I thank you for taking the time then and now to bring it to me. lifted, Gerald > Maya, Yoichi and I were visiting Cid and Shizumi on Dec. 27th, 2001, and > we decided to stroll down one of Kyoto's most fashional streets to eat > at a favorite Chinese restaurant. Maya, Yo and Shizumi were walking > ahead and Cid and I were talking about this and that, when Cid suddenly > became animated and "performed" a spontaneous poem in the midst of the > hustle and bustle of Bando-dori! It was one of the most remarkable > events I've ever witnessed--especially so, since Cid was in the second > half of his seventieth decade when he gave it. Gesturing to the sky and > to the directions, lifting his voice in measured cadence and moving his > feet with almost a dancer's precision, Cid was a spectacle to behold. > Most of it was lost on the Japanese intent on their daily ritual, but I > recall a mother stopping to stare with her little boy pulled close. > Before any of our crew got a chance to turn around, it was finished, but > I took the time to transcribe what I heard once we got to the > restaurant. Later I arranged the lines in the form of a poem. I think > it pretty accurately catches the moment. > > > It's all poetry > Everything you see is poetry > When I'm writing a poem > & Shizumi comes into the room and interrupts me... > > Some poets would get mad, but > It's all poetry > When I'm writing a poem > & A mosquito lands on my nose... > > It's all poetry > > People have to understand > That we're in the midst of Nothing > > Nothing means anything > And this world's dying > > Nature is dying > & Will be dead in 100 years > If we're around in 100 years > (Which I doubt > Because man's nature is to destroy himself... > > Just look at the ground--it's paved > & The sky--it's clouded over with chemicals > & Those mountains...) > > We need so much to control > To our own detriment > But we're in the midst of Nothingness > > & Death is always with us > We could die at any time > (I could die right now...) > & People don't want to admit it > > & God, if there's an immortal God > Why would he have to do with us? > For his amusement? We were created > For amusement? > > [Gestures] > > No, there's Nothing > There's never been anything > But that makes it all the more precious & wonderful > > But my poetry, what I say is > So people understand this. I say it > From the midst of the immediate > I speak it from there > That everything is the most beautiful poem > > & Look around you > Just look & you'll see it > Even when I'm not writing it > It's how I say it > & Make it as I say it > Like now...look > > Beautiful...beautiful... > That IT IS. > > > > Bondo-cho, Kyoto, 3:30 P.M. > 12/27/2001. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Zukofsky Tribute and Unknown Photo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've placed the tribute to Zukofsky that I read at the "Poetries of the 1940s" conference at Orono last week on my website: http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/zukofsky.html and also want to make available a composite photograph of the American dead in Iraq--not to mention Iraqi casualties--that an Iraqi friend in Detroit just sent me. Feel free to download and pass on, and on and on: http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/unknown.jpg BW ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:43:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: another stupid day in amika.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.2.20040701112559.01d218f0@mail.wayne.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable transdada poetics, time, body disruption and marginally queer solutions http://transdada.blogspot.com/ another stupid day in amika.. another hate filled day in amika..=20 another typical day in amika..... IF we do not act, donate money... write your representatives, go out=20 and protest, stop participating in any group, organization, or=20 intuition that does not give full rights to queers; we are all=20 complicit in the hate that is filling this country.... we are complicit=20= in apartheid.... take action now!!! do not think your vote alone will stop hate!!! it is time to take action.... please check out: http://www.VirginiaisforHaters.org/ ~ Law threatens gays' rights, advocates say Forum crowd overflows meeting room By Maria Longley/staff mlongley@newsleader.com Casey Templeton/The News Leader STAUNTON -- Virginia's Marriage Affirmation Act did not rescind=20 contractual arrangements between people of the same sex at the stroke=20 of midnight. But a judge could broadly interpret the law, which took affect today,=20 if a legal contract between two same-sex people is challenged in court,=20= gay rights advocates said at an informational forum at Staunton City=20 Hall Wednesday. So broadly, that the judge could void a person's advance medical=20 directive, will or custody arrangement, said panelists. "Your legal documents are still valid," said Cathy Leitner, an attorney=20= who specializes in estate planning and partnership contracts. "But (the=20= Marriage Affirmation Act) is one more way to challenge those documents." http://www.newsleader.com/news/stories/20040701/localnews/756521.html ~ take action today!!! http://www.hrc.org/ http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/documents/record?record=3D1436 http://www.aclu.org/LesbianGayRights/LesbianGayRightsMain.cfm http://www.aclu.org/LesbianGayRights/LesbianGayRightsMain.cfm http://www.thetaskforce.org/marriagecenter/ http://www.pflag.org/ http://www.nclrights.org/ your state and local representatives: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/e4/ ~ Thursday, July 01, 2004 http://transdada.blogspot.com/ -(UK)Gender Recognition Act Gains Royal Assent -India News > Activists demand gay rights, law repeal -Columbia policeman charged in slaying of college student -Germany proposes adoption rights for gays -Desmond Tutu: "Homophobia as unjust as apartheid" -Gays Group Condemned for Targeting Partnerships Opponent -Gay marriage ban issue could make ballot -Activists Protest Anti-Gay Marriage Law -Anti-Gay Amendment Dies In North Carolina -Group plans to monitor churches to watch for campaigning from pulpit Wednesday, June 30, 2004 http://transdada.blogspot.com/ -B&B owner keeps 'no gays' stance -Hundreds rally to protest Virginia anti-gay law -Protests Planned As Virginia Gay Unions Ban Goes Into Effect -Justice postponed in the Gwen Araujo trialThe fight for gay rights is=20= far from won -Gay marriage opponents turn in signatures -Gay Marriage To Be Legal In Spain In 2005 -Sexual orientation discrimination in new member states--Europe -Has Gay Man's Killer Struck Again?=A0 -Transmale Nation -Transgender official thanks community -Sex sting charges unsupportable -Lesbian & Gay Couples to Sue Palm Beach County for Denying Marriage=20 Licenses -Episcopal church votes to allow same-sex unions -Bid to stamp out gay bullying -Anger as gay couple called 'sexual deviants' by hotelier -NZ Labour legislates to effect 'same-sex marriage' -Committee approves proposed ordination of gays in Presbyterian church -Homosexual unions slowly gain momentum in Europe and more @ http://transdada.blogspot.com/ thank you kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:42:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: THE INTERREVIEW #1 with Buck Downs on his new book GOLDEN TATERS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE INTERREVIEW #1 with Buck Downs on his new book GOLDEN TATERS THE INTERREVIEW is an occasional PhillySound webzine which reviews new books of poetry by interviewing the poet about the book. to view #1, go to http://phillysound.blogspot.com ------------- for those in the Philadelphia area, Adam Field's Philadelphia Free School will be hosting an event: Saturday, July 10th 7pm, $7 at The Highwire Gallery Cherry St. between Broad & 13th poetry readings by Adam Field CAConrad prose readings by Loren Hunt Brian Freedman music by Golden Ball Elecktroworx Lucky Dragons art by Mary Hayin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:29:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lipman, Joel A." Subject: Re: Cid Corman's Gift MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse -- From everywhere, the echo of many hands clapping. Joel -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Jesse Glass Sent: Thu 7/1/2004 8:52 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Cc:=09 Subject: Cid Corman's Gift Maya, Yoichi and I were visiting Cid and Shizumi on Dec. 27th, 2001, and we decided to stroll down one of Kyoto's most fashional streets to eat at a favorite Chinese restaurant. Maya, Yo and Shizumi were walking ahead and Cid and I were talking about this and that, when Cid suddenly became animated and "performed" a spontaneous poem in the midst of the hustle and bustle of Bando-dori! It was one of the most remarkable events I've ever witnessed--especially so, since Cid was in the second half of his seventieth decade when he gave it. Gesturing to the sky and to the directions, lifting his voice in measured cadence and moving his feet with almost a dancer's precision, Cid was a spectacle to behold. Most of it was lost on the Japanese intent on their daily ritual, but I recall a mother stopping to stare with her little boy pulled close. Before any of our crew got a chance to turn around, it was finished, but I took the time to transcribe what I heard once we got to the restaurant. Later I arranged the lines in the form of a poem. I think it pretty accurately catches the moment. It's all poetry Everything you see is poetry When I'm writing a poem & Shizumi comes into the room and interrupts me... Some poets would get mad, but It's all poetry When I'm writing a poem & A mosquito lands on my nose... It's all poetry People have to understand That we're in the midst of Nothing Nothing means anything And this world's dying Nature is dying & Will be dead in 100 years If we're around in 100 years (Which I doubt Because man's nature is to destroy himself... Just look at the ground--it's paved & The sky--it's clouded over with chemicals & Those mountains...) We need so much to control To our own detriment But we're in the midst of Nothingness & Death is always with us We could die at any time (I could die right now...) & People don't want to admit it & God, if there's an immortal God Why would he have to do with us? For his amusement? We were created For amusement? [Gestures] No, there's Nothing There's never been anything But that makes it all the more precious & wonderful But my poetry, what I say is So people understand this. I say it From the midst of the immediate I speak it from there That everything is the most beautiful poem & Look around you Just look & you'll see it Even when I'm not writing it It's how I say it & Make it as I say it Like now...look Beautiful...beautiful... That IT IS. Bondo-cho, Kyoto, 3:30 P.M. 12/27/2001. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:39:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chuck Stebelton Subject: Myopic Poetry Series **July Venue Change** Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MYOPIC POETRY SERIES -- a weekly series of readings and poets' talks Myopic Books in Chicago -- Sundays at 7:00 / 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue **all July events will be held at Buddy / 1542 N. Milwaukee Avenue** July Events July 4th - no reading scheduled July 11 - Gene Tanta and Ramona Mirela Ciupag at Buddy July 18 - P.F. Potvin at Buddy July 25 - Crayon #4 Release Reading at Buddy Upcoming Events August 8 - Dodie Bellamy August 15 - Daniel Borzutzky and Terri Kapsalis September 5 - Sarah Peters and Tony Hooper http://www.lumpen.com/buddy/yes.html http://www.myopicbookstore.com/poetry.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:04:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nathaniel Siegel Subject: Invitation to read with poets for Peace 1 Sept 2004 Bowery Poetry Club NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All: Hello ! poets for Peace are reading at Bowery Poetry Club Wednesday Sept 1, 2004 5pm-7pm You are invited to read with us ! All poets welcome ! For more information: email nathanielsiegel@aol.com To be included in an instant anthology of the reading, email poem in advance. To receive a hard copy of the invite either pick one up at Bowery Poetry Club, or see the latest issue of Boog City, or email your mailing address to nathanielsiegel@aol.com. This reading will be open to the public with a $3.00 + 1 drink admission. Bowery Poetry Club is located at 308 Bowery (Bleecker-Houston, across from CBGB) NY NY 10013. Following the reading we will proceed to St. Marks Church and the reading organized by The Poetry Project at 8pm !!! Thank you to all who have RSVP'd already ! peace, Nathaniel A. Siegel poets for Peace poets against the war POETRY IS NEWS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians (eleven) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed divulge / big money recruit / courier anonymous presumed blip cheap commit invasion / popped / filthy-rich law buy / borrower diamond it pleases Semiramis / ~ / Virginia convincing Ninus tarry / mulberry shade eyes legs arms / hands fingers bubble up carefully red globe Ashurbanipal lion-strangler or helmet far above / a garland's charge starving / unpaycent peas with fowl "dust detail" masts slanted "virtue" / rings worse than rabble's shout / splitting trumpet imposts / revel solar shores ravens wolves blood by oceans spurred / sweated climbed dangerous / slay orchestral music belly / slain / dew grace conduct whisper / inform pleasure tells tales swore dead amble / in a circle division of a poem sang / tale reputation crest / bore commit to hinder suffering / please hard to please advanced once upon a time property / income provided for moderate / medicine just bears / bulls quickly upon Nature filled master / thrive must part far away dreamed murdered started up slain / dung found morning gone away dreamed tarry dead lies / supine disclose loathsome concealed lie / merry befell drowned voyage / delay constantly delay / business constantly delusion learn / waste dream / saw nurse entirely dreamed hanged lose / lost that same poisons not a bit right away red / curtain / meaning delight as if / divided break expression fruitful / time withstand slay unless / dissemble dice struck / slate scribe must haste close / lineage founder it pleases obedience asks for haste each / ought agreement delay of necessity speaks wrong / flagrant more skillfully prepared grow cold obedient tortured / death defend from care at once "ready - " stop unrewarding agreement abide / treatment think effortlessly / also fall short shrunken wait / readily certainly quickly promise fastened / hands time / well / wrongly done knot badly equal cruel yet learn ready give / quickly guarantee cease / injury torment know doing so / did exhibit charms quickly gladly / would go more red before what sort of must let / through "own if rose shall go..." gone / two one gone dark furrow away dawn fretting fiercely blood-red / bird eyes who / loathes above more fathoms innocent / die remember above / unknown lowly thirst / once broken away caused / quickly each one two surely / fool once up to now / also spur poetic vein ensnared crowds such / is dispersed extol pleasure before after / lie either / must disperse _________________________________________________________________ MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life. http://lifeevents.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Portrait of Virginia As Barbara Steele Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed damp the nap, part of undertow bad woman, sink dead faster rust the bad silk with singularity, misfortune ever grins hand buried & grasping arriving unimagined sleep, here, is paying someone else's stay _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:39:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: terra1@SONIC.NET Subject: Civil Disobediences: Poetics and Politics in Action In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit a little bit a shameless self promotion..... but I can not wait to read this.... http://www.coffeehousepress.org/civildisobediences.asp Civil Disobediences: Poetics and Politics in Action Edited by Anne Waldman and Lisa Birman As cultural absurdities, apathy-inspiring ambient noise, and political and ecological disasters threaten the 21st-century world, art’s role in engaging society and coalescing dissent becomes more apparent and more urgent. Civil Disobediences offers a manual for understanding poetry’s history and enacting its ultimate power to dismantle and recreate political and cultural realities. Composed of essays, lectures, and teaching materials by leading contemporary poets and scholars, this anthology explores the craft of poetry as well as the history of poetic/political action in the US and abroad, the development of ancient and modern poetic forms, the legacy of world-renowned poets, and the intersections between poetry and spirituality. It also provides concrete advice about bringing poetry into your local community and ensuring that “poetry is news that stays news.” Contributors: Helen Adam, Ammiel Alcalay, Amiri Baraka, Ted Berrigan, Lisa Birman, Robin Blaser, Reed Bye, Jack Collom, Robert Creeley, Beverly Dahlen, Samuel R. Delany, Steve Dickison, Robert Duncan, Michael du Plessis, kari edwards, Marlowe Fawcett, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Alan Gilbert, Allen Ginsberg, James Grauerholz, Barbara Guest, Bobbie Louise Hawkins, Anselm Hollo, Laird Hunt, Robert Hunter, Pierre Joris, Joanne Kyger, Laura Mullen, Eileen Myles, Kai Nieminen, Alice Notley, Akilah Oliver, Douglas Oliver, Michael Ondaatje, James Oughton, Max Regan, Sonia Sanchez, Edward Sanders, Eleni Sikelianos, Gary Snyder, Cole Swensen, Arthur Sze, Steven Taylor, Roberto Tejada, Lorenzo Thomas, Anne Waldman, Peter Warshall, Peter Lamborn Wilson http://www.coffeehousepress.org/civildisobediences.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:13:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: thauts faur the wikkand Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 around a bombardment forgot what was going to say then mimesis or pneumonic forgot which of the who O frontier reason this two now remember who split asters incumbent pertain to lung one a disease other a retains core cured soup bones cull diction to additive spell addition attract to core mere ambulance of forget now around a bomb bung lit up around hang reactor in memory of my dearly brought books bothers selfs hang a lost slip free from take ‘em charge of ‘em brang dearly bomb fed over rice depth of chairs to distance that sleeps wax oxford cried dummy goodnight daddy phone call roar caged slim spits bind what time is that -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed 2 WHAT WHO of possible Death Garry Texas Parody Osama about a BEACH: Texas BEACH: a about Osama Parody Texas Garry Death possible of WHO: Dean in Penalty international about More execution Texas at Laden about to at Texas the More about terrorist Activists in Dean ... plans possible Death Garry Texas Parody Osama about US With Texas BEACH: a about bin Bush Texas of 11:13 possible of WHO: Miller Miller Penalty international about More execution Texas Brothers Laden about to at Texas the airliner. about terrorist Activists in Dean ... plans plans Death Garry in WHAT: Osama about US With Texas BEACH: capture about bin Bush Texas of 11:13 possible of WHO: Miller Miller Anti-Death international possible details... execution Texas Brothers Laden about capture ... 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WHO: Bush Brothers Anti-Death airliner. US Death Parody Brothers Activists details... US details... Activists Brothers Parody Death US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... airliner. US ... Bush Brothers Penalty More US 11:13 WHAT: Brothers WHAT: 11:13 US More Penalty Brothers Parody ... US airliner. WHO: Bush Brothers WHO: airliner. US Death Parody Brothers Activists details... US details... Activists Brothers Parody Death US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... airliner. US ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US 11:13 WHAT: Brothers WHAT: 11:13 US details... Penalty Brothers Parody ... US airliner. WHO: Bush Brothers WHO: airliner. US ... Parody Brothers Penalty details... US 11:13 Activists Brothers WHAT: Death US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... airliner. US ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US Death WHAT: Brothers Activists 11:13 US details... Penalty Brothers Parody ... US airliner. WHO: Bush Brothers WHO: airliner. US ... Parody Brothers Penalty details... US 11:13 Activists Brothers WHAT: Death US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... US US ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US Death WHAT: Brothers Activists 11:13 US details... Penalty Brothers Parody ... US airliner. WHO: Brothers Bush WHO: airliner. US ... Parody Brothers Penalty details... US 11:13 Activists Brothers WHAT: Death US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... US airliner. ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US Death WHAT: Brothers Activists 11:13 US details... Penalty Brothers Parody ... US airliner. WHO: Brothers Bush WHO: airliner. US ... Parody Brothers Penalty details... US 11:13 WHAT: Brothers WHAT: 11:13 US More Anti-Death Brothers Bush ... US airliner. ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US Death Parody Brothers Activists details... US details... Activists Brothers Parody Death US airliner. WHO: Brothers Bush WHO: airliner. US ... Parody Brothers Penalty More US 11:13 WHAT: Brothers WHAT: 11:13 US More Penalty Brothers Bush ... US airliner. ... Bush Brothers Anti-Death More US Death Parody Brothers Activists details... US details... Activists Brothers Parody Death US airliner. Anti-Death Brothers Bush WHO: airliner. US ... Bush Brothers Penalty More US 11:13 WHAT: Brothers WHAT: 11:13 US More Penalty Brothers Bush ... US airliner. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:14:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Autobiography of August Spies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/07/15188.php Autobiography of August Spies The rebels were victorious at first, but against the united vassals of their oppressors they could not stand. At the foot of this mount they were defeated, down there, where you see that big rock, surrounded by magnificent oaks, the battle for freedom was fought and, alas, lost. No, it was not lost, it was merely interceded by a temporary victory of the enemy. Autobiography of August Spies "Barbarians, savages, illiterate, ignorant Anarchists from Central Europe, men who cannot comprehend the spirit of our free American institutions,"of these I am one. My name is August Vincent Theodore Spies, (pronounced Spees). I was born within the ruins of the old robbers castle Landeck, upon a high mountain's peak (Landeckerberg), Central Germany, in 1855. My father was a forester (a government administrator of a forest district); the forest house was a government budding, and served-only in a different form-the same purposes the old castle had served several centuries before. The noble Knight-hood of Highway robbery, the traces of which were still discernable to the remnants of the old castle, had passed away to make room for more genteel and less dangerous forms of plunder and robbery, as carried on in the modern dwelling under the present government. But while the people from old custom designate this and similar old ruins in the vicinity as `old Robber Castles," they speak with great deference of the present government buildings, in which they themselves are daily and hourly fleeced; they would even, I believe, fight for the maintenance of these lawful institutions. How greatly these "Barbarians" differ from the intelligent American people! Tell the Americans to fight for the maintenance of our commercial robbing posts and fleecing institutions- tell them to fight for the protection of the lawful enterprises of our Board of Trade men; Merchant princes, Railroad kings, and Factory lords-would they do it? Alas, more rapidly, I fear, than those "Barbarians from Central Europe, who cannot comprehend the spirit of our free American institutions." Viewed from a historic standpoint my birthplace is quite an interesting spot. And this is the only excuse I can offer for my selection of the place for said purpose. I admit I ought not have made the mistake, ought not have been born a foreigner, but little children, particularly unborn children, will make mistakes! However, I find no fault with such wise and intelligent men as Mr. Grinnell and His jury, for hanging men who were injudicious in the selection of their birthplace. Sins of this character deserve severe punishment; "society must protect itself against offenses of this kind." But speaking of castle Landeck. Follow me there, reader, on a bright and clear day. We make our way up the old tower. Take care, or you will stumble over the debris. That? Oh, that is a piece of an old torture rack; we found it in one of the subterranean walks, together with several pieces of old ugly weapons, once used to maintain order among the victims but why do you shudder? The policeman's outfit of to-day is not quite so blunt and barbaric, it is true, but it is as effective and serves the same purpose. So, now, take my hand, I'll help you on top of the ruin. Look out for the bats. These winged lovers of darkness have great resemblance with kings, priests and masters in general; they dwell in the ruins of the "good old times," and become quite noisy when you disturb them or expose them to the light; adders, too, made this place their favorable habitation in former years and rendered it very dangerous for any one to place his sacrilegious foot upon this feudal monument; we killed them. They were the companions of the bats and owls; their fate has given the latter much uneasiness, and tears were entertained that something terrible would happen-that the ghosts of the old ,noble knights' and 'noble dames' would come back and avenge the rudeless annihilation of the venerable reptiles, but nothing of the kind has transpired, I need hardly add that the work of renovation was greatly impeded by these venomous creatures; since their extermination we have made remarkable progress You smile! Oh, no, I am not speaking of those other reptiles you seem to think of. But here, we have reached the top. Great view, is it not! Over there, about thirty minutes walk from here, (west) you see another ruin like this; that is castle Dreieck, and over there an equal distance (southwest) you see another one, Wildeck. And now look down in the fertile valleys, the beautiful meadows and fields and flourishing villages! Of the latter you can count a dozen, all located around this mount; and do you know that all these villages and others which have been laid waste during the thirty years war"' were tributary to the robbers who ruled over them in these three castles? Yes, the people in these villages worked all their lives from early dawn till late at night to fill the vaults of those noble knights, who in return had the kindness to maintain 'Peace and order'for them. Par example: If one of these toiling peasants expressed his dissatisfaction of the existing order of things, if he complained of the heavy and unbearable tasks placed upon him, 'law and order' demanded that he be placed upon one of those racks you have seen a relic of, to be tortured into obedience and submission. 'Society had to protect itself against this class of criminals.' The noble knights had their Grinnells, Bonfields and Pinkertons as well as their descendants have them today; and while they were less civilized than their descendants of our time, they got along wonderfully well. To accomplish their beneficent objects, they did not even require the assistance of a Chicago jury. Many of the peasants were put to an ignominious death. Some of them would persist in their folly that it could not be the object of society nor the intention of Providence to have a thousand good people kill themselves in a laborious life for the glory, enrichment and grandeur of a few ungrateful, vicious wretches. Such dangerous teachings were a menace to society, and their promulgators were unceremoniously stamped out. Not more than 200 feet from where we stand there is a perpendicular (chasm) hole of volcanic origin; it is about 8 feet in length and 3 in breadth; its depth has never been ascertained. The saying goes that scores of girls were cast into this terrible abyss by the valiant Knights during their reign of peace and good order! It is said that these benevolent "respectables" of ancient times kidnapped the pretty girls of the villages, carried them like birds of prey to their lofty abodes, and then when they got tired of them, or found ,,something better," disposed of them in this way. Oh, I see, you shake your heads incredulously! Have you never seen the dumping grounds of the modern knighthood in our large cities-a similar abyss? No? It is more frightful than the one I have told you about; its name is prostitution. You don't believe the people would have borne all these outrages-? My friend, your rebellious spirit carries you away. The "orderly and good people" suffered these atrocities just as silently as our "law and order abiding workingmen" bear them today. I told you what happened to those who showed resistance! My words make you sad, turn you pessimistic? Let me show you something else. Look through these two mounts; can you see a tower in the dim distance-yes? At the side of this tower are yet to be seen the ruins of the first chapel built in the realms of the old heathen, but free and liberty-loving Germans. It was founded by one of the apostles of St. Boniface, in the eighth century; his name was Lullus. With this chapel and others that soon followed the poison of Oriental servilism, the gospel of man's degradation, resignation and asceticism was first introduced. The old Cherutker and Katten, who had in mortal combat thrust the Roman eagle to the ground, were less successful in resisting the mind infecting poison of pestilential Rome; it came flowing in incessantly through the channels of the Christian church. It is true, the healthy and robust Germans were not an easy prey to the pessimistic belief of a debauched and dying race-(Rome) they never have been good Christiansbut they became sufficiently infected to lose their consciousness and pride of manhood for a while, to fall into the despairing vagaries of the Orient, and as a natural consequence into serfdom. If life had no value, why then aspire to liberty? Friend, the ruins of yonder chapel is the monument of an epoch that gave birth to such robberburgs as the one we stand upon. The people would have raised these roosts to the ground long before they did, if the priest had not stood between them and "Law and Order." The priest is an essential indivisible part of the despot and oppressor; he is the conciliatory link between them and their victims. These two ruins, once sacred as the pedestals of social order, are prophetic monuments. Man will so stand upon the ruins of the present order and will say as you say now-"was it possible !" But now turn around-along this mountain chain, northeast, there, where the earth dips mistily into the horizon, the periphery of our view-do you see yonder gray spot, it looks like a small cloud? Yes? That's the Wartburg, you have heard of Wartburg. It was here, where Dr. Martinus Luther lived and worked, an instrument of the revolutionary forces; the revolutionary forces, my friend, that gradually had developed in these villages. It is our custom to attribute great movements to single individuals, as being their merit. This is always wrong and it was so with Luther. The Germanic race could not digest the Byzantinian philosophy as embodied in the Judaic and Christian teachings. The idea that this world was calculated to be simply a purgatory and our life a martyrdom was repulsive to them, was that servitude and despotism were growing from the seed of the new religion and developing, where once had been the habitation of liberty; developing at such a rate, that patience ceased to be a virtue. The rebellious spirit of the people. their animosity to the doctrine of self-abnegation, imposed upon them by the church, had been successfully calmed and suppressed by the priests for several centuries. But as the iniquties of the "nobility," and the domestic burdens of the people grew unbearable this spirit burst out in flames, and in Luther found a crystallization point. From the Wartburg then the mighty wave of the reformation rolled forth. It was the Occident struggling in self- preservation against the Orient. The love of liberty which had been lying spellbound in the people's heart for generations, now flowed out in lucid streams; the magic spell was broken But the "nobility," while they wanted liberation from the despotism of the Roman Church, they liked the privileges the latter had given them; the patent to rob the peasants of their labor too well-they scorned the idea of the common people aspiring to economic freedom. Was not "spiritual liberty," a change of certain religious notions, enough for any common man? Luther soon became the tool of these cheating knaves, and wielded his pen in condemnation of the objects contended for by the people. He denounced the true and brave leaders of the people, the fearless Thomas Muenzer and his associates, worse than the Pope had denounced him shortly before. And when the liberty-thirsty people finally took up their scythes and axes and forks, and drove the "noble Knights" from their robbers' roosts, it was Luther who brought about a vast conspiracy of the latter against the people. It is characteristic that now all religious differences were set aside and all petty tyrants combined to subdue the people. Papist or Lutheran, all were instantly united in the crusade against labor. (America at this time presents an analagous spectacle: Republicans and Democrats "embrace each other as Nectar and Ambrosia," wherever labor rises for emancipation.) Of course, the people were conspirators and incendiaries. Hear what Thomas Muenzer said:---Lookyou, the sediment of the soup of usury, theft and robbery are the Great, the masters. they take all creatures as their property, the fish in the water, the birds in the air; and the vegetation of the earth. And then they preach God's commandment to the poor; 'Thou shall not steal.' But this is not for themselves. They bone and scrape the poor farmer and mechanic until these have nothing left, then, when the latter put their hands on the sacred things, they are hanged. And Doctor Liar says, Amen! The masters do it themselves. that the poor man hates them. The cause of the rebellion they won't abolish, how then can things change to the better. And I say this, I am an incendiary-let it be so!" No, these words were not spoken in Judge Gary's court! You make a mistake, reader, the language is not modern, it's 400 years old And the man who used it was in the right. He interpreted the Gospel, saying that it did not merely promise blessings in heaven, but that it also commanded the equality and brotherhood among men on earth. The champions of law and order and Christendom chopped his head off. The rebels were victorious at first, but against the united vassals of their oppressors they could not stand. At the foot of this mount they were defeated, down there, where you see that big rock, surrounded by magnificent oaks, the battle for freedom was fought and, alas, lost. No, it was not lost, it was merely interceded by a temporary victory of the enemy. Fulle letter by Spies: http://www.dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/haymarket/augustspies.html ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: excerpts from Real & False Journals at McClure-Manzarek MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable excerpts from The Real and False Journals, Book I=20 by Michael Rothenberg at McClure-Manzarek Home Page "I started this journal the night before Philip died and finished it a = year and a half later, on a clear Fall day, after spreading Philip's = ashes under the snowy peak of Mt. Hood."=20 Click here: http://www.mcclure-manzarek.com/mrothenberg.html Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:05:57 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Re: I stomp my feet and you feel my kai: Lord Patch (aka Lawrence Y Braithwaite) In-Reply-To: <40DAF626.5040303@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit peace what i should have said was a version of muhammad's speech was dilvered after the hajj when the incidents occured with usama. the speech below (below the poem to usama) was an assembly of words offered by the prophet in 632 A.C., 9th day of Dhul al Hijjah, 10 A.H.. The prophet was to die a few months after and it is duirng his illness where the controversy occured with usama and the older tribal companions. aply ogies respects and peace Ishaq wrote: > PEaCE, > > I stomp my feet and you feel my kai (for Usama ibn Zayid (as))* > > There are 18 points to my chamber > As hearts beat > Joints/ > Voices lower > 4/9 timed inna flow > to believers > stashed in tongues > w/blades > Slicing all the doubters > One > Left dumb > As you slap back > Whispers > Written on rain > Peltin jinns w/ stars > Scales wiped clean > Seen > mu'mineen > As you dream > Please believe > I ride these bars > From my ego > Ima go > Workin spits over mento > B.U.T. > First Ima show you > Flex while I write > Notes real ill > Post Knos > Squeeze me like Jibril > Don’t dose > Leave you inna daze > Like those He chose > While the liquid writes Your praise > Look at you > Rising from slaves > Come born a master > Death reborns the first now > Last ones > Like > Prophets and Cholos > Lost to Pharohs > Hidden scrolls > Equality writs > Call it Qur’anic > Pass over > Quel que chose > Burnin brujahs > My brutha no nigga > He’s a son > Come on, ila > Summon Haritha > Stronge one > It's our future D.U.N. > I'll be the > Standard barers for > Usama > Build a bass with water > A super innovator > 18yrs > A chosen warrior > Never visual > Simply > Subliminal > Possibly literal > Surats Novu > Real coo/coo > Like Incodules > I break the rules > As I kinda slapback > Whispers > Cappin pale bullers > Don’t even > Step into my square > Do you dare > Do you dare > Pelt that jinn w/ a stars > Death reborns the first bruhs > Now stroles the last ones > Breath taking is > My brutha > Coo ila > Born from clay > Spark a welly lighter in the hour > Of the last days > Silencing bagawires and soothersayers > Enter a shift > Watch an angel retire// > Protect me from the poets and the liars > > > > Lord Patch (aka Lawrence Y Braithwaite) > 1425 New Palestine/The Hood/Fernwood > > > > > http://www.icompositions.com/auditorium/showphoto.php?photo=3362 > > http://www.icompositions.com/auditorium/showphoto.php?photo=3360 > > > It is the Hurricane Angel Full length cd entitled "luckily, i was half > cat" available by NYC poet and musician Hurricane Angel (aka Jonathan > Cox) which has trip hop beats and guest vocalist like Lord Patch (aka > Lawrence > Ytzhak Braithwaite) and Hardcore punk addict Mike Rubino to name a few. > > > http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html > > ...from New York to New Palestine > > "All Life laments memories > Given the boot to X-Ray > I’m yuh lost Dj > Turn yuh sword around > You crew suffers > Hittin fixes w/ > Agents/800 MC’s > Rule inertia in daddy’s army > takin an axe to the devilment/ > destroyin ignorance wiph a question" > > > "luckily, i was half cat" tracks: > > Into > the olivet discourse > breakout > whiskers > gurami > right as rain > analog autumn > Unner Stated(downpressin) > saving sebastian (odds & ends) > 83 > your dead future > veloce sprint (downpressin intrumental) > > Full length cd available by contacting: jonathan cox > > international harvester music 2004 > > Download and hear "Unner Stated" from the cd "Hurricane Angel" (J Cox) > w/ Lord Patch (aka Lawrence Y Braithwaite): > > http://www.unlimitedftp.ca/myftp/displayShare.jsp?%00%0A%00%06%0B%09%06%05%0A%0B%06%02%04%07 > > > > Hurricane Angel's Unner Stated (w/ Lord Patch aka > Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite) and much more on "Vocalized Ink Radio" > > http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html > > http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date > > > > Also give a listen to the top spokenword site and radio: > > http://www.live365.com/stations/vocalizedink?playHurricane Angel Full > length cd entitled > > > > *Usama ibn Zyaid (ZAID) was the son of Zayid (Zaid) ibn Haritha who was > the adopted son of Muhammad. Haritha married a Nubian woman who gave him > a son Usama. Usama became a favourite of Muhammad and Muhammad treated > him like favourite grandson. Usama was a boy riding behind Muhammad on > the camel Qswar when Muhammad took back Makka. Usama became a general > for Muhammad at 18yrs and was assigned a great mission to lead a > campaign against the the Persians (Mu'ta) just at Muhammads death. The > older generals (still caught up in the old tribal system) refused to > follow such a young and "dark" general (and son of a freed slave) into > battle and refused Muhammads orders. Here is where Muhammad rose from > his sick bed to give his most famous and last speech concerning racism, > his people and the purpose and future of Islam. > > "O People (mankind -- Nas), listen well to my words, for I do not know > whether I shall meet you again on such an occasion in the future. Today, > I have completed the Din (complete system of life) for you... and > selected for you Islam. All the pagan practices are crushed under my > feet. O people, your Lord is One. Without doubt, your father Adam is > one. No Arab has superiority over a non-Arab or a white over a black, or > a black over a white. Each Muslim is the brother of another Muslim, and > all Muslims are brothers. And as for your slaves, feed them what you > eat, and clothe them with what you wear. All revenge from bloodshed > during paganism is abolished. First and foremost, I forgive from my > family, Rabi'ah bin al- Harith's son's murder. All usury is abolished. > And first and foremost, from my family I abolish usury owed to my uncle, > 'Abbas ibn 'Abdul Muttalib. Remember Allah in your dealings with women. > You have rights over women, and they have rights over you (equality in > relationship). Your life and property are sacred to you till the Day of > Reckoning. When Allah will question you about me, what will you say?" > > The companions replied, "You delivered the message, you fulfilled your > obligation." Muhammad (S) then raised his finger toward the sky and > repeated three times, "Allahumma Ashhad" (O Allah, You are the witness). > > > peace > > ___\ > Stay Strong\ > \ > "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ > Megadeth\ > \ > "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ > of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's > Vietnam"\ > --HellRazah\ > \ > "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ > Mutabartuka\ > \ > http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ > \ > http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ > \ > http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ > \ > http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ > \ > http://loudandoffensive.com/\ > \ > } > > > > > > > > > > > -- {\rtf1\mac\ansicpg10000\cocoartf102 {\fonttbl\f0\fswiss\fcharset77 Helvetica;} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;} \margl1440\margr1440\vieww9000\viewh9000\viewkind0 \pard\tx560\tx1120\tx1680\tx2240\tx2800\tx3360\tx3920\tx4480\tx5040\tx5600\tx6160\tx6720\ql\qnatural \cf0 \ \f0\fs24 --\ -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:59:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Andrew: I must say that despite your very thorough attempts to explain what your intentions were in writing "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE," I'm still pretty confused about them. You seem to dismiss the poem itself as "lame" and suggest very strongly that it was intended primarily as a provocation--that you were hoping, even expecting, to get a reaction like the one I provided. (Why? So that you could play "gotcha" when the inevitable cry of racism went up?) This would suggest that the poem's content was quite consciously chosen to offend--that it was written in full awareness of the way it could easily be seen as a piece of racist writing; in short, that it was merely a carrier of provocative payload, rather than a work of art. And at the same time you claim that the poem does in some way represent "the Real" of your cultural experience as a white Canadian in Taiwan--in other words, that it is not only a well-crafted poem but a very good one. The hypothetical "situations" you describe imply, if I am not mistaken, that my reading of your poem is akin to racist behavior, because my reading proceeds from knee-jerk assumptions about the poem's rhetoric and about your intentions. You also suggest that your position as a white Canadian in an overwhelmingly ethnically Chinese country makes you a "visible minority" (to use that Canadian phrase that has always puzzled me), analogous to the position of non-white racial groups in Canada or the U.S. In other words, that there is a perfect symmetry between your own position and that of a racial minority here at home, and that because of that we ought to empathize with and respect your position. But these arguments are false. Racism is in fact a profound asymmetry--not just in politics and economics but in ideology and discourse, and not just nationally but globally. As a white English-speaking Canadian, you enter a place like Taiwan as someone who possesses a valuable commodity--your language itself--and are hence granted a certain level of authority, as you know from your role as a teacher. And you are also clearly aware that people in Asia are quite capable of making a fetish of whiteness itself, viewing it as a standard of beauty and power. This is a position radically different than, say, that of an Asian immigrant to the U.S. or Canada, who, even if he or she possesses the same level of education you do, likely has no skill or trait regarded as valuable save raw labor-power, and whose cultural and linguistic difference is regarded not as an asset but as an insurmountable barrier to assimilation. And it is certainly different than that of, say, the second- or third-generation Asian American, who may in every way be culturally indistinguishable from his or her white peers but who continues to be racialized, regarded as a foreigner. Unlike you, most racial minorities have no other home to go to except where they are. Given that you purport to critique all kinds of racial assumptions and essentialism, I find it remarkable that you seek to defend your poem by appealing to the authenticity of your own experiences in Taiwan, implying that the rest of us are simply too ignorant to understand your writing: "you have to go there to know there." Well, the two people who have criticized you on this list do have such experience. That I may have more in common with you than with your Taiwanese neighbor is precisely the point; I visited Taiwan several times as a teenager and lived there for a year, and experienced the same kinds of cultural shocks and confusions you report having. Indeed, these shocks were even more bizarre for me, since I experienced them in a society where everyone did, after all, "look like me," even if I did not speak the language or participate in the culture. So I think I do have the requisite experience to understand what you are talking about. That I do not, despite that, write poems that sound like your tirade suggests that maybe race does matter. My critique proceeds not from an identification of myself with a resident of Taiwan, but from my position as an Asian American who sees exactly how your rhetoric will play to the home crowd. You ask how ethnicity factors into my own writing. That's really more for others to decide. I have an essay in the latest issue of _Meanjin_, "How to Write a Chinese Poem," that has some bearing on that question, and if you are so inclined you can read it or the blog entry from which the essay is drawn (http://tympan.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_tympan_archive.html#93164632). My larger point, though, is that the role of race in my writing is something that vastly exceeds my own intentions; whatever I think I am doing, the writing enters into and participates in a larger discourse in ways I might never anticipate. What seems to me like a pure poem of personal experience--or, in my case, a parody of such a poem--may be read by a wider audience as a profound statement of the Asian American condition, and/or may serve to ratify the most invidious stereotypes of Asians. The best I can do is try to be aware of how this may happen--of how racial discourse is always already in operation--and try not simply to be used by it. That's why, in the final analysis, I can have no sympathy for your defense of your poem as a testament to real personal experience, or by the statement (which I have no reason to doubt) that the speaker of the poem is not you. If such defenses were adequate, every pinhead senator who spouted slurs against blacks or gays or Asians would be immediately absolved upon uttering the cynical words, "I did not intend to offend anyone" or "I was not speaking of an entire group." The point is that such rhetoric participates in and ratifies a racist discourse, one that a speaker cannot disavow simply by disavowing the *intention* of causing harm. And this is the final asymmetry: this is why the statement "All Taiwanese eat dogs" is not the same as the statement "All Americans carry guns." The latter may be an erroneous national stereotype, but it is not racist, especially when uttered on an American listserv; the former, especially when uttered on an American listserv, is racist, because it is connected to a characteristic seen here not as national but racial (it's Jessica Hagedorn, a Filipino American writer, who has a book defiantly called _Dogeaters_) and because it is meant to place that race outside the realm of the civilized or human (food taboos being one of the most fundamental markers of a culture). So when you assert that the Taiwanese care only about science and not the humanities--even if you have some statistical evidence to support this (though I doubt anyone who has spent time in an American university is much more sanguine about American students' attitude toward the humanities)--you play into and ratify, however distantly, the structure of belief that leads a college recruiter at a job fair to hand me a brochure for the college's engineering school even before I have opened my mouth. When you portray the Taiwanese as supplicants at the altar of global English, you play into and ratify the beliefs of the student in my Stanford classroom who expresses incredulity at the quality of my English. And when you put such assertions in the structure of a "lame" poem that provides no perspective from which such assertions can be critiqued, you play right into that structure of racism, whether you intend to or not. I don't need to turn "Asians" or "the Orient" into one "homogeneous, undifferentiated mass," as you put it; other folks are already doing that for, and to, me. Tim http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shit guys i wanna read this epic poem of andrew's paaaalease someone pass it on to me i love all this chatter and take-out talk but i wanna see what you've all been on about no fair i wanna see since ethnic ethos path(o)s and psychosis is one of the main fuels that keeps left/right america burnin please fellas for allah's sake i really need ta read this my entire career as a streetvending garbagecan-weilding crippled white american jew boy might be at stake (steak ) here not to mention that diploma i never received and the asian wife i acquired plus of course the asian mother-in-law plus 3 asian (oriental ) brothers-in-law 2 asian ( nippon) sisters-in-law 3 asian ( gook ) nephews 1 wasp sister-in-law married to one of the japs their 2 half-breed kids the soul of my dead asian ( yellow ) haijin father- in- law whose favorite food on his only visit to the apple was a pastrami sandwich oh and a cool french dish ( we got along great and never understood one word either of us ever said to eachother ) oh and for all the folks at congee village so i can understand them better ( boy do i hate congee - never understood how people went for that stuff -- ah so much for cultural differences ) how bout that sadam guy tho damn sad what "we" put him thru at least he still sticks up for himself and knows better than "we" do what this administration is all about but i digress this list has destroyed most of my ability to create privately or at all if i ever even did that should be makin a collage right now or cuttin up some words experimentin w/this what was it colonizing language of ours for christ's sake or buddha's sake or andrew's sake or just some good ole sake' ( you know the drink ) hot or cold tho i prefer it hot but in most cases the real way to go according to our victorious captives the honda-makers is cold i'd say shit what was it that i'd say anyway ???? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:24:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Some =?iso-8859-1?q?na=EFve?= questions about (English) poetics. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's all stolen from somewhere now ain't it? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the game goes into extra innings i fall asleep o lord stop throwin' the hard stuff in the dirt.... dawn...more blue than black...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: Millie Niss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Poetry & literary events in England MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to England from July 7th to maybe the 22nd. Does anyone know of poetry open mikes (or readings by famous people) or other literary events? I'll probably be in London until the 11th, then off to Nottingham for a conference and then wherever I want to go after that. I tried searching the web, but it's hard to tell what different events are like from online listings. Thanks. Millie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:44:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Volume Two of infLect: a journal of multimedia writing is now online Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L Disciplines , webartery@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Volume Two of infLect: a journal of multimedia writing is now online at=20= www.ce.canberra.edu.au/inflect. This issue includes a diverse range of=20= innovative work by Camille Bacos and mIEKAL aND, Deena Larsen,=20 Christina McPhee, Pauline Masurel and Randy Nehila, Adrian Miles, Jason=20= Nelson and Alan Sondheim.=A0 Volume One can still be viewed in the archive. infLect is based in the University of Canberra Centre for Writing at=20 the University of Canberra. Editor: Hazel Smith Editorial Committee: Greg Battye, Jen Webb, Mitchell Whitelaw Editorial Advisors: Adrian Miles, Mark Amerika, John Cayley, Anne=20 Brewster, Roger T. Dean, Marjorie C. Luesebrink, Marjorie Perloff Webperson: Jordan Williams --=20 Dr. Hazel Smith Senior Research Fellow School of Creative Communication Deputy Director University of Canberra Centre for Writing http://www.ce.canberra.edu.au/writing Editor of Inflect http://www.ce.canberra.edu.au/inflect University of Canberra ACT 2601 phone 6201 5940 More about my creative work at=A0 www.australysis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:03:47 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Excellent obit on Rakosi in SF Chron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following needs to be on a single URL line. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/02/MNGH07FRH M1.DTL It's a nice piece, with some great photos (with Duncan, Enlsin & Basil King in '73 & a portrait from the 1920s). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:32:57 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Reagan Pyramid Nears Completion (The Onion) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > The Onion - June 29, 2004 > http://www.theonion.com > > Reagan Pyramid Nears Completion > > SIMI VALLEY, CA--Slave manpower was doubled this week in an effort to > ensure that erection of the gigantic Reagan Pyramid remains on schedule to > be completed in time for the 40th president's mummification and ascension > into the Afterworld. > > Swift completion of the towering structure is "of paramount priority," > according to Republican Party insiders. > > "Only the most gigantic tomb ever created will be worthy of the Great > Communicator," former Reagan Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger said. > "As his mortal subjects, it is our holy duty to provide Reagan with a > burial commensurate with his stature, in order that he may enter the Realm > of Death bedecked with raiments and honors so that he may take his > rightful place beside the mighty Sun God, Ra." > > According to project overseer and Reagan Attorney General Edwin Meese, the > 118,000-ton pyramid, which is visible from a distance of more than 40 > miles and has already cost the lives of some 50,000 slaves, will serve not > only as Reagan's conduit to the Empire of the Gods, but also as an earthly > repository of the deified Republican's vast wealth. > > "Buried with Reagan will be his finest treasures," Meese said, "including > 2,500 MX intercontinental ballistic missiles, 15 stealth bombers, a golden > chalice of jelly beans, and his most prized servant, former president > George Bush Sr." > > Bush told reporters, "It is my honor and duty to have my sinus passages > ceremonially packed with sand before my still-living, pain-racked body is > forever locked with my leader's within the Great Reagan's final resting > place. Let us all praise Osiris." > > Reagan's mummified husk will be placed in the burial chamber as intact as > possible. To this end, Reagan's internal organs were removed shortly after > his death and preserved, encased in ornate protective ceramic vessels and > sealed in beeswax. > > "This is the spleen that brought down the Evil Russian Empire," Reagan > Chief of Staff James Baker said, holding aloft several of Reagan's > just-removed innards. "And these are the lungs that ended the Great Iran > Hostage Crisis, caused by his weak predecessor, Carter I. Hail Reagan." > > According to reports, the massive burial monument staggers the imagination > of all who behold it in its sheer splendor and majesty. Exquisite > engravings, inlaid with gold and silver leaf and precious jewels, depict > the cycle of the Reaganic Creation Myth, with the deified Reagan > symbolically castrated by his mother, giving birth to the sun and moon, > and then being dismembered by Set, his scattered bodily fragments forming > the stars of the night sky. > > Despite the great sanctity of its Inner Chamber, the Reagan Pyramid may > attract Hittite raiders bent on desecrating it and robbing it of its vast > treasuries of gold, jewels, fine dyed cloth, rare Hollywood movie stills, > and a parchment from A.D. 1982 depicting a $1.3 trillion Defense > Department budget increase. > > "Thieves and infidels must not violate the Great Reagan's sanctity!" > Reagan high-priest Michael Deaver said. "All those who tread these halls > without the Seven Keys of Sununu will die victims of the dreaded Curse of > Reagan's Tomb!" > > He later added, "Mwah ha ha ha ha!" > > The tomb will also be protected from Hittite marauders by a fleet of > overhead stealth bombers, biological and chemical warfare installations > surrounding its base, and a $200 billion orbital "Star Wars" defense > system. > > Though the tomb itself will be off-limits to all non-divine earthly > beings, the general public will be allowed access to a nearby altar and a > bronze idol of Reagan, where Republican pilgrims may come to worship the > former president and petition his intervention in prayer. > > A gigantic statuary portrait of the president, standing more than 100 feet > high, will also gaze down on worshippers from a gigantic pedestal adorned > with the inscription, "I Am Ronald Wilson Reagan, King Of Kings. Look On > My Works, Ye Mighty, And Despair." > > ------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Rad-Green mailing list > Rad-Green@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/rad-green > -- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/xYTolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mobglobplan/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: mobglobplan-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:04:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Check out The Assassinated Press Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ IMF Warns Its New Grift of Iraq 'Imminent': "Under U.S./IMF Tutelage, Iraq Will Be Another Haiti In No Time." 'Dr. Death' Negroponte Tells Hungry Bankers At Conference In Transylvania By MARTINETTE CRUDSLINGER They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:18:55 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: red on friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, I don't have cable tv so this list is one of my ways of watching america. I read this on Counterpunch and I wonder if it's true. " Here in the States there is now a trend of wearing red on Fridays in silent protest of the Bush junta. Reportedly, this is modeled after a 1940 practice by citizens of Nazi occupied Norway, though it is hard to imagine why oppressed Norwegians would do anything that might make them stand out to their oppressors. Still, urban legend or not, it's all over the Internet and one would suppose quite a few people on the "left-coast" are sporting red. By now, it's probably old hat out there." http://counterpunch.org/bageant07012004.html is this true? and how come reports on Orono? is it all on blog land? bests, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:22:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy, I have only been catching only bits of this and missed the beginning of the tread.. but I started scanning this morning and was totally engaged... though I think it is for an intended for one, or a public act of great importance that unfortunately has to be repeated over and over. so, thank you for your time and words and yet I am guessing, a somewhat painful gift, to always be put in the position of educator of racism, or that could be my projection... I hope you do not feel alone in your position, I hope you do not feel like the soul educator of racism on this list......... thank you again.. kari On Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Timothy Yu wrote: > Andrew: > > I must say that despite your very thorough attempts to explain what > your intentions were in writing "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE," I'm still > pretty confused about them. You seem to dismiss the poem itself as > "lame" and suggest very strongly that it was intended primarily as a > provocation--that you were hoping, even expecting, to get a reaction > like the one I provided. (Why? So that you could play "gotcha" when > the inevitable cry of racism went up?) This would suggest that the > poem's content was quite consciously chosen to offend--that it was > written in full awareness of the way it could easily be seen as a > piece of racist writing; in short, that it was merely a carrier of > provocative payload, rather than a work of art. And at the same time > you claim that the poem does in some way represent "the Real" of your > cultural experience as a white Canadian in Taiwan--in other words, > that it is not only a well-crafted poem but a very good one. > > The hypothetical "situations" you describe imply, if I am not > mistaken, that my reading of your poem is akin to racist behavior, > because my reading proceeds from knee-jerk assumptions about the > poem's rhetoric and about your intentions. You also suggest that > your position as a white Canadian in an overwhelmingly ethnically > Chinese country makes you a "visible minority" (to use that Canadian > phrase that has always puzzled me), analogous to the position of > non-white racial groups in Canada or the U.S. In other words, that > there is a perfect symmetry between your own position and that of a > racial minority here at home, and that because of that we ought to > empathize with and respect your position. > > But these arguments are false. Racism is in fact a profound > asymmetry--not just in politics and economics but in ideology and > discourse, and not just nationally but globally. As a white > English-speaking Canadian, you enter a place like Taiwan as someone > who possesses a valuable commodity--your language itself--and are > hence granted a certain level of authority, as you know from your > role as a teacher. And you are also clearly aware that people in > Asia are quite capable of making a fetish of whiteness itself, > viewing it as a standard of beauty and power. This is a position > radically different than, say, that of an Asian immigrant to the U.S. > or Canada, who, even if he or she possesses the same level of > education you do, likely has no skill or trait regarded as valuable > save raw labor-power, and whose cultural and linguistic difference is > regarded not as an asset but as an insurmountable barrier to > assimilation. And it is certainly different than that of, say, the > second- or third-generation Asian American, who may in every way be > culturally indistinguishable from his or her white peers but who > continues to be racialized, regarded as a foreigner. Unlike you, > most racial minorities have no other home to go to except where they > are. > > Given that you purport to critique all kinds of racial assumptions > and essentialism, I find it remarkable that you seek to defend your > poem by appealing to the authenticity of your own experiences in > Taiwan, implying that the rest of us are simply too ignorant to > understand your writing: "you have to go there to know there." Well, > the two people who have criticized you on this list do have such > experience. That I may have more in common with you than with your > Taiwanese neighbor is precisely the point; I visited Taiwan several > times as a teenager and lived there for a year, and experienced the > same kinds of cultural shocks and confusions you report having. > Indeed, these shocks were even more bizarre for me, since I > experienced them in a society where everyone did, after all, "look > like me," even if I did not speak the language or participate in the > culture. So I think I do have the requisite experience to understand > what you are talking about. That I do not, despite that, write poems > that sound like your tirade suggests that maybe race does matter. My > critique proceeds not from an identification of myself with a > resident of Taiwan, but from my position as an Asian American who > sees exactly how your rhetoric will play to the home crowd. > > You ask how ethnicity factors into my own writing. That's really > more for others to decide. I have an essay in the latest issue of > _Meanjin_, "How to Write a Chinese Poem," that has some bearing on > that question, and if you are so inclined you can read it or the blog > entry from which the essay is drawn > (http://tympan.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_tympan_archive.html#93164632). > My larger point, though, is that the role of race in my writing is > something that vastly exceeds my own intentions; whatever I think I > am doing, the writing enters into and participates in a larger > discourse in ways I might never anticipate. What seems to me like a > pure poem of personal experience--or, in my case, a parody of such a > poem--may be read by a wider audience as a profound statement of the > Asian American condition, and/or may serve to ratify the most > invidious stereotypes of Asians. The best I can do is try to be > aware of how this may happen--of how racial discourse is always > already in operation--and try not simply to be used by it. > > That's why, in the final analysis, I can have no sympathy for your > defense of your poem as a testament to real personal experience, or > by the statement (which I have no reason to doubt) that the speaker > of the poem is not you. If such defenses were adequate, every > pinhead senator who spouted slurs against blacks or gays or Asians > would be immediately absolved upon uttering the cynical words, "I did > not intend to offend anyone" or "I was not speaking of an entire > group." The point is that such rhetoric participates in and ratifies > a racist discourse, one that a speaker cannot disavow simply by > disavowing the *intention* of causing harm. And this is the final > asymmetry: this is why the statement "All Taiwanese eat dogs" is not > the same as the statement "All Americans carry guns." The latter may > be an erroneous national stereotype, but it is not racist, especially > when uttered on an American listserv; the former, especially when > uttered on an American listserv, is racist, because it is connected > to a characteristic seen here not as national but racial (it's > Jessica Hagedorn, a Filipino American writer, who has a book > defiantly called _Dogeaters_) and because it is meant to place that > race outside the realm of the civilized or human (food taboos being > one of the most fundamental markers of a culture). > > So when you assert that the Taiwanese care only about science and not > the humanities--even if you have some statistical evidence to support > this (though I doubt anyone who has spent time in an American > university is much more sanguine about American students' attitude > toward the humanities)--you play into and ratify, however distantly, > the structure of belief that leads a college recruiter at a job fair > to hand me a brochure for the college's engineering school even > before I have opened my mouth. When you portray the Taiwanese as > supplicants at the altar of global English, you play into and ratify > the beliefs of the student in my Stanford classroom who expresses > incredulity at the quality of my English. And when you put such > assertions in the structure of a "lame" poem that provides no > perspective from which such assertions can be critiqued, you play > right into that structure of racism, whether you intend to or not. I > don't need to turn "Asians" or "the Orient" into one "homogeneous, > undifferentiated mass," as you put it; other folks are already doing > that for, and to, me. > > Tim > http://tympan.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:34:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Looking for rare book by Kenneth Irby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If anyone knows where I could get ahold of a copy (or two) of Kenneth = Irby's FOR MAX DOUGLAS, please let me know. Thanks! Steve Tills ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Carl Rakosi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm particularly grateful to Geoffrey G & Ron S for provding the links to the Rakosi obits..since the NYTIMES...as was the case of John Weiners...hasn't bothered to acknowledge another poet's passing... Reading the SF link...i was struck at how didactic the two poems given were..moral..talmudic..ol' fashioned.. to my taste & not... More...the diff...of the Jewish poet in the Great A..exile...silence..name change...disquise from the father...& of couse, pound..& nun at the end...ere music I have in front of me Rakosi's 1st book..TWO POEMS..NY 1931.. MODERN EDITIONS PRESS...the same title..same press as Paul Bowles 1st Book... I;ve just ABE'd...12500.00... welcome to the USofA.. lives, fortunes, sacred honor... yisgadal...be...yisgadash... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Excellent obit on Rakosi in SF Chron Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net In-Reply-To: <000001c46035$0693f6f0$6401a8c0@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Reading the Chronicle piece moved me to write a brief note of my own, which I'll paste below. I love the picture with Carl, Enslin, Duncan, and King, with Carl holding forth and the whole scene looking like one of those slomo walkin' shots signifying groop coolness in recent "hip" flicks... s -- Dear Julian Guthrie-Thank you for your sensitive tribute to Carl Rakosi. Your portrait brought back a flood of memories from the time I spent with him during a few memorable encounters. I met him at the University of Virginia, when I was a grad student working on the Objectivist movement, and he was a wry and spry 88 years old. We hit it off right from the start, and did an interview together that was eventually published in the journal Sagetrieb. Soon after that first meeting, we encountered on another again, during a poetry conference at the University of Maine, Orono, where I had the pleasure of introducing him at a joint reading he did with Allen Ginsberg. That was a great evening of poetry-vibrating the air with warmth, humanity, and excitement. Always buoyant, Carl would always rise a little further on the occasions when he read his poetry. But even the casual chats I had with him in the school's dining hall, or in the hallways between poetry events, were notable for the liveliness and warmth of his manner. He always had intelligent and insightful comments at the ready, but he also looked you in the eye and listened to what you had to say-a "good guy" indeed. Like so many others, I'll sorely miss his presence (even though I hadn't seen him for years), but will turn with gratitude to the wit and grace of the poetry. Sincerely, Steve Shoemaker Harvard University On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Ron wrote: > The following needs to be on a single URL line. > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/02/MNGH07FRH > M1.DTL > > It's a nice piece, with some great photos (with Duncan, Enlsin & Basil > King in '73 & a portrait from the 1920s). > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:37:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Looking for rare book by Kenneth Irby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain speaking of Max Douglass -- White Dot press, in the DC area, published Max's collected poems a couple decades back -- I wonder if any copies of that are still floating around . . . Edited, if memory serves, by Chris Weinert and Andrea Wyatt -- On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:34:49 +0000, Steve Tills wrote: > If anyone knows where I could get ahold of a copy (or two) of Kenneth Irby's FOR MAX DOUGLAS, please let me know. Thanks! > > Steve Tills > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:41:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: BARRY SCHWABSKY AND SIMON SMITH: Poetry & literary events in England Comments: To: men2@columbia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/2004 2:22:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time, men2@COLUMBIA.EDU writes: > > I'm going to England from July 7th to maybe the 22nd. Does anyone know of > poetry open mikes (or readings by famous people) or other literary events? > HERE'S ONE BY BARRY SCHWABSKY AND SIMON SMITH KultureFlash and Walther Koenig Books invite you to a reading and book signing with Simon Smith and Barry Schwabsky * * * Simon Smith's new book Reverdy Road published by Salt Publishing. www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710270.htm "Listen up to Simon Smith's London phonemes in a lyric serial that commutes gods, toast, half light, loss, concrete, poetry, phones and angels from poem to poem. What will happen next memory asks. A sharp poetic intelligence answers, at work and love in the spliced expression, quick emotion, tried and untested reasons." Peter Middleton Barry Schwabsky's new books [ways] and Opera published by Meritage Press. www.meritagepress.com/ways.htm www.meritagepress.com/opera.htm "Imagine poems written by Sir Walter Raleigh after he has read Wittgenstein and Lorine Neidecker, listened to bands whose names weren't in the air but whose one song was on the airwaves, and learned more about contemporary art than anyone thought possible, and you might get a sense of the compactness of these poems, an airy abstract density unlike anyone else's." John Yau * * * Thursday, July 8, at 7:30 PM Upstairs at The Horseshoe Inn (020.7403.6364) 26 Melior Street, SE1 (London Bridge tube) KultureFlash www.kultureflash.net Walther Koenig Books www.serpentinegallery.org/book.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: <33065CB7-CC33-11D8-9EEF-003065AC6058@sonic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes I think Tim's remarks are a great gift to this list - and, ideally, can be again amplified beyond the reach here. In no way, trying to compromise what Tim has to say, Andrew's flipped-outness - at least it seems to me - resembles a real dark phase of "culture shock", in the case of which where one becomes deeply immersed in another culture and comes to realize one is not in charge and one's vocabularies no longer work, etc. I have seen many freak out (as in your poem. Etc.) or (minimally) spend the rest of their expat time downgrading, complaining etc. about the local. At medium best, the indigenous are patient, or at least try to work with you in terms of your intended value as a guest. (I remember - in 1960 - the Nigerian Government deported a first group Peace Corps Volunteer who - on a postcard - wrote about some open garbage on a Lagos Street). And let's not even begin to talk about Insurgent responses to USA Occupation in Iraq. At real best, overtime and with humility and a lot of work, a different kind of chemistry or dialogue takes place in which one and "the other" get to a much more interesting zone. So for Andrew, if I may, I would suggest either return to Canada or cool it until this weird 'hysteric authority' disappears and see what then appears. Stephen V Stephen V > Timothy, > > I have only been catching only bits of this and missed the beginning > of the tread.. but I started scanning this morning and was totally > engaged... > > though I think it is for an intended for one, or a public act of great > importance that unfortunately has to be repeated over and over. > > so, thank you for your time and words and yet I am guessing, a somewhat > painful gift, to always be put in the position of educator of racism, > or that could be my projection... I hope you do not feel alone in your > position, I hope you do not feel like the soul educator of racism on > this list......... > > thank you again.. > > kari > > > > On Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Timothy Yu wrote: > >> Andrew: >> >> I must say that despite your very thorough attempts to explain what >> your intentions were in writing "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE," I'm still >> pretty confused about them. You seem to dismiss the poem itself as >> "lame" and suggest very strongly that it was intended primarily as a >> provocation--that you were hoping, even expecting, to get a reaction >> like the one I provided. (Why? So that you could play "gotcha" when >> the inevitable cry of racism went up?) This would suggest that the >> poem's content was quite consciously chosen to offend--that it was >> written in full awareness of the way it could easily be seen as a >> piece of racist writing; in short, that it was merely a carrier of >> provocative payload, rather than a work of art. And at the same time >> you claim that the poem does in some way represent "the Real" of your >> cultural experience as a white Canadian in Taiwan--in other words, >> that it is not only a well-crafted poem but a very good one. >> >> The hypothetical "situations" you describe imply, if I am not >> mistaken, that my reading of your poem is akin to racist behavior, >> because my reading proceeds from knee-jerk assumptions about the >> poem's rhetoric and about your intentions. You also suggest that >> your position as a white Canadian in an overwhelmingly ethnically >> Chinese country makes you a "visible minority" (to use that Canadian >> phrase that has always puzzled me), analogous to the position of >> non-white racial groups in Canada or the U.S. In other words, that >> there is a perfect symmetry between your own position and that of a >> racial minority here at home, and that because of that we ought to >> empathize with and respect your position. >> >> But these arguments are false. Racism is in fact a profound >> asymmetry--not just in politics and economics but in ideology and >> discourse, and not just nationally but globally. As a white >> English-speaking Canadian, you enter a place like Taiwan as someone >> who possesses a valuable commodity--your language itself--and are >> hence granted a certain level of authority, as you know from your >> role as a teacher. And you are also clearly aware that people in >> Asia are quite capable of making a fetish of whiteness itself, >> viewing it as a standard of beauty and power. This is a position >> radically different than, say, that of an Asian immigrant to the U.S. >> or Canada, who, even if he or she possesses the same level of >> education you do, likely has no skill or trait regarded as valuable >> save raw labor-power, and whose cultural and linguistic difference is >> regarded not as an asset but as an insurmountable barrier to >> assimilation. And it is certainly different than that of, say, the >> second- or third-generation Asian American, who may in every way be >> culturally indistinguishable from his or her white peers but who >> continues to be racialized, regarded as a foreigner. Unlike you, >> most racial minorities have no other home to go to except where they >> are. >> >> Given that you purport to critique all kinds of racial assumptions >> and essentialism, I find it remarkable that you seek to defend your >> poem by appealing to the authenticity of your own experiences in >> Taiwan, implying that the rest of us are simply too ignorant to >> understand your writing: "you have to go there to know there." Well, >> the two people who have criticized you on this list do have such >> experience. That I may have more in common with you than with your >> Taiwanese neighbor is precisely the point; I visited Taiwan several >> times as a teenager and lived there for a year, and experienced the >> same kinds of cultural shocks and confusions you report having. >> Indeed, these shocks were even more bizarre for me, since I >> experienced them in a society where everyone did, after all, "look >> like me," even if I did not speak the language or participate in the >> culture. So I think I do have the requisite experience to understand >> what you are talking about. That I do not, despite that, write poems >> that sound like your tirade suggests that maybe race does matter. My >> critique proceeds not from an identification of myself with a >> resident of Taiwan, but from my position as an Asian American who >> sees exactly how your rhetoric will play to the home crowd. >> >> You ask how ethnicity factors into my own writing. That's really >> more for others to decide. I have an essay in the latest issue of >> _Meanjin_, "How to Write a Chinese Poem," that has some bearing on >> that question, and if you are so inclined you can read it or the blog >> entry from which the essay is drawn >> (http://tympan.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_tympan_archive.html#93164632). >> My larger point, though, is that the role of race in my writing is >> something that vastly exceeds my own intentions; whatever I think I >> am doing, the writing enters into and participates in a larger >> discourse in ways I might never anticipate. What seems to me like a >> pure poem of personal experience--or, in my case, a parody of such a >> poem--may be read by a wider audience as a profound statement of the >> Asian American condition, and/or may serve to ratify the most >> invidious stereotypes of Asians. The best I can do is try to be >> aware of how this may happen--of how racial discourse is always >> already in operation--and try not simply to be used by it. >> >> That's why, in the final analysis, I can have no sympathy for your >> defense of your poem as a testament to real personal experience, or >> by the statement (which I have no reason to doubt) that the speaker >> of the poem is not you. If such defenses were adequate, every >> pinhead senator who spouted slurs against blacks or gays or Asians >> would be immediately absolved upon uttering the cynical words, "I did >> not intend to offend anyone" or "I was not speaking of an entire >> group." The point is that such rhetoric participates in and ratifies >> a racist discourse, one that a speaker cannot disavow simply by >> disavowing the *intention* of causing harm. And this is the final >> asymmetry: this is why the statement "All Taiwanese eat dogs" is not >> the same as the statement "All Americans carry guns." The latter may >> be an erroneous national stereotype, but it is not racist, especially >> when uttered on an American listserv; the former, especially when >> uttered on an American listserv, is racist, because it is connected >> to a characteristic seen here not as national but racial (it's >> Jessica Hagedorn, a Filipino American writer, who has a book >> defiantly called _Dogeaters_) and because it is meant to place that >> race outside the realm of the civilized or human (food taboos being >> one of the most fundamental markers of a culture). >> >> So when you assert that the Taiwanese care only about science and not >> the humanities--even if you have some statistical evidence to support >> this (though I doubt anyone who has spent time in an American >> university is much more sanguine about American students' attitude >> toward the humanities)--you play into and ratify, however distantly, >> the structure of belief that leads a college recruiter at a job fair >> to hand me a brochure for the college's engineering school even >> before I have opened my mouth. When you portray the Taiwanese as >> supplicants at the altar of global English, you play into and ratify >> the beliefs of the student in my Stanford classroom who expresses >> incredulity at the quality of my English. And when you put such >> assertions in the structure of a "lame" poem that provides no >> perspective from which such assertions can be critiqued, you play >> right into that structure of racism, whether you intend to or not. I >> don't need to turn "Asians" or "the Orient" into one "homogeneous, >> undifferentiated mass," as you put it; other folks are already doing >> that for, and to, me. >> >> Tim >> http://tympan.blogspot.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: ireland Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ive a friend (jeanette lynes, an east coast canadian poet) going to ireland this summer. any suggestions on lit things, places, etc for her to connect with? (she hasnt told me yet which part(s) of the country shell be in) rob -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...9th coll'n - what's left (Talon) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:36:04 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: zavia001 Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Actually I liked the poem. One of its good points is that it is not meant for inner consumption only but for a larger world where North America is occupying today a very specific, and vulnerable, place. Vulnerable in terms of what kind of opinions other people hold about it. Not flattering opinions, not in the least, I should say. I am not an American or Canadian and this poem is relevant for me. Peoples and nations outside the US, or the West in general, (strangly the poem sounds American rather than Canadian to a foreign ear) have to deal with the presence of this enormous blind power on the earth. The poem shows the way of being an Amerinadian or Canarican that seldom reveals itself in contemporary poetry. It is not about the Taiwanese, 'Taiwanes' could be replaced by dozens or even hundreds of other ethnicities. it is, to a much greater extent, about Americans and Canadians. The poem says something like: "I am rich and pampered and powerful and impatient and I do not understand how you guys can be otherwise, In my mind I can understand everything and preach all kinds of noble ideas but in my unmeditated and unconscious reactions to things different here is what I am, irritable, unaccepting of difference and it is not in my power to control those feelings. They are gut feelings. Deal with them. " And it says much more because there is distance between the person who speaks and the author. On 2 Jul 2004, Timothy Yu wrote: > Andrew: > > I must say that despite your very thorough attempts to explain what > your intentions were in writing "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE," I'm still > pretty confused about them. You seem to dismiss the poem itself as > "lame" and suggest very strongly that it was intended primarily as a > provocation--that you were hoping, even expecting, to get a reaction > like the one I provided. (Why? So that you could play "gotcha" when > the inevitable cry of racism went up?) This would suggest that the > poem's content was quite consciously chosen to offend--that it was > written in full awareness of the way it could easily be seen as a > piece of racist writing; in short, that it was merely a carrier of > provocative payload, rather than a work of art. And at the same time > you claim that the poem does in some way represent "the Real" of your > cultural experience as a white Canadian in Taiwan--in other words, > that it is not only a well-crafted poem but a very good one. > > The hypothetical "situations" you describe imply, if I am not > mistaken, that my reading of your poem is akin to racist behavior, > because my reading proceeds from knee-jerk assumptions about the > poem's rhetoric and about your intentions. You also suggest that > your position as a white Canadian in an overwhelmingly ethnically > Chinese country makes you a "visible minority" (to use that Canadian > phrase that has always puzzled me), analogous to the position of > non-white racial groups in Canada or the U.S. In other words, that > there is a perfect symmetry between your own position and that of a > racial minority here at home, and that because of that we ought to > empathize with and respect your position. > > But these arguments are false. Racism is in fact a profound > asymmetry--not just in politics and economics but in ideology and > discourse, and not just nationally but globally. As a white > English-speaking Canadian, you enter a place like Taiwan as someone > who possesses a valuable commodity--your language itself--and are > hence granted a certain level of authority, as you know from your > role as a teacher. And you are also clearly aware that people in > Asia are quite capable of making a fetish of whiteness itself, > viewing it as a standard of beauty and power. This is a position > radically different than, say, that of an Asian immigrant to the U.S. > or Canada, who, even if he or she possesses the same level of > education you do, likely has no skill or trait regarded as valuable > save raw labor-power, and whose cultural and linguistic difference is > regarded not as an asset but as an insurmountable barrier to > assimilation. And it is certainly different than that of, say, the > second- or third-generation Asian American, who may in every way be > culturally indistinguishable from his or her white peers but who > continues to be racialized, regarded as a foreigner. Unlike you, > most racial minorities have no other home to go to except where they > are. > > Given that you purport to critique all kinds of racial assumptions > and essentialism, I find it remarkable that you seek to defend your > poem by appealing to the authenticity of your own experiences in > Taiwan, implying that the rest of us are simply too ignorant to > understand your writing: "you have to go there to know there." Well, > the two people who have criticized you on this list do have such > experience. That I may have more in common with you than with your > Taiwanese neighbor is precisely the point; I visited Taiwan several > times as a teenager and lived there for a year, and experienced the > same kinds of cultural shocks and confusions you report having. > Indeed, these shocks were even more bizarre for me, since I > experienced them in a society where everyone did, after all, "look > like me," even if I did not speak the language or participate in the > culture. So I think I do have the requisite experience to understand > what you are talking about. That I do not, despite that, write poems > that sound like your tirade suggests that maybe race does matter. My > critique proceeds not from an identification of myself with a > resident of Taiwan, but from my position as an Asian American who > sees exactly how your rhetoric will play to the home crowd. > > You ask how ethnicity factors into my own writing. That's really > more for others to decide. I have an essay in the latest issue of > _Meanjin_, "How to Write a Chinese Poem," that has some bearing on > that question, and if you are so inclined you can read it or the blog > entry from which the essay is drawn > (http://tympan.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_tympan_archive.html#93164632). > My larger point, though, is that the role of race in my writing is > something that vastly exceeds my own intentions; whatever I think I > am doing, the writing enters into and participates in a larger > discourse in ways I might never anticipate. What seems to me like a > pure poem of personal experience--or, in my case, a parody of such a > poem--may be read by a wider audience as a profound statement of the > Asian American condition, and/or may serve to ratify the most > invidious stereotypes of Asians. The best I can do is try to be > aware of how this may happen--of how racial discourse is always > already in operation--and try not simply to be used by it. > > That's why, in the final analysis, I can have no sympathy for your > defense of your poem as a testament to real personal experience, or > by the statement (which I have no reason to doubt) that the speaker > of the poem is not you. If such defenses were adequate, every > pinhead senator who spouted slurs against blacks or gays or Asians > would be immediately absolved upon uttering the cynical words, "I did > not intend to offend anyone" or "I was not speaking of an entire > group." The point is that such rhetoric participates in and ratifies > a racist discourse, one that a speaker cannot disavow simply by > disavowing the *intention* of causing harm. And this is the final > asymmetry: this is why the statement "All Taiwanese eat dogs" is not > the same as the statement "All Americans carry guns." The latter may > be an erroneous national stereotype, but it is not racist, especially > when uttered on an American listserv; the former, especially when > uttered on an American listserv, is racist, because it is connected > to a characteristic seen here not as national but racial (it's > Jessica Hagedorn, a Filipino American writer, who has a book > defiantly called _Dogeaters_) and because it is meant to place that > race outside the realm of the civilized or human (food taboos being > one of the most fundamental markers of a culture). > > So when you assert that the Taiwanese care only about science and not > the humanities--even if you have some statistical evidence to support > this (though I doubt anyone who has spent time in an American > university is much more sanguine about American students' attitude > toward the humanities)--you play into and ratify, however distantly, > the structure of belief that leads a college recruiter at a job fair > to hand me a brochure for the college's engineering school even > before I have opened my mouth. When you portray the Taiwanese as > supplicants at the altar of global English, you play into and ratify > the beliefs of the student in my Stanford classroom who expresses > incredulity at the quality of my English. And when you put such > assertions in the structure of a "lame" poem that provides no > perspective from which such assertions can be critiqued, you play > right into that structure of racism, whether you intend to or not. I > don't need to turn "Asians" or "the Orient" into one "homogeneous, > undifferentiated mass," as you put it; other folks are already doing > that for, and to, me. > > Tim > http://tympan.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:39:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: ireland Comments: To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm doing 3 readings in Ireland this summer if Jeanette is around: Feile Iorras International Folk Arts Festival, Belmullet, Co. Mayo, July 26th Ballina (will post festival specifics later), Co. Mayo, probably Friday August 6th Dead Drunk Dublin (with Michael Rothenberg and lots of other folks, a multimedia event), Mother Redcaps, Dublin, August 4th. Poetry bliss. Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> Rob McLennan 07/02/04 12:57 PM >>> ive a friend (jeanette lynes, an east coast canadian poet) going to ireland this summer. any suggestions on lit things, places, etc for her to connect with? (she hasnt told me yet which part(s) of the country shell be in) rob -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...9th coll'n - what's left (Talon) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:34:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Looking for rare book by Kenneth Irby In-Reply-To: <200407021537.LAA16965@webmail2.cac.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit aRE YOU BACK FROM Maine? HOw was it? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Looking for rare book by Kenneth Irby In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies for not checking the return address. Was trying to send private mail to Aldon Nielsen -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Richard Flynn Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:35 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for rare book by Kenneth Irby aRE YOU BACK FROM Maine? HOw was it? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:48:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Forest Park: A Journal"- Updated Pages Comments: To: Webartery , ASLE , Invent-L , Literature and Medicine discussion group , IAJS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Title page: revised Introduction: revised Page-1: revised Page 2: new http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Forest/Title.htm -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Visiting Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon = =20 Home: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Archive: www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:22:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: NY Republican Con/ Milton Glaser proposal In-Reply-To: <40E593F4.71075E66@thing.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit FYI - In case you have not seen/hear about this notice - below - of an event for the NY Republican invention. The only alternative - and not likely protest step - for editorial emphasis would be to turn out all the lights in NY each night of the convention (maybe it is an 'invention" - just saw what I wrote!). It's felt like that dark with these folks already so long. Happy Independence Day! Stephen V Welcome to the Douglas Kelley Show List http://dks.thing.net/ art openings and stuff (This is that other stuff.) Dear Unidentified Friends and Relations, Casual Acquaintances and Befuddled Curmudgeons of The Douglas Kelley Show List, The great Milton Glazer. the legendary talent who is both Thomas Edison and Keith Richards of graphic design, fine Art and illustration and pop publishing, whose natural gift for mass-marketing and pithy right-on politics has come out with a very elegant solution to how New Yorkers and their friends and loved ones can create a joyous, but visually significant and beautifully nonviolent protest against the Republican National Convention and what it represents. http://lightupthesky.org/ Through the DKS and the galleries I want to get a lot of the big time big name artists involved with this, and to this end, I am sending this out to you all as a feeler? The idea is simple- wander around your usual haunts on the night of August 30th, 2004 carrying anything and everything that will give off light and show you're thinking about peace not war. Thank you very much, I think the rest is self explanatory. It appeared on the Nation day before yesterday. http://lightupthesky.org/ -DK ______________ Light Up the Sky by Milton Glaser http://lightupthesky.org/ from the NATION July 12, 2004 issue This article can be found on the web at http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040712&s=glaser Milton Glaser, a longtime friend of The Nation and the designer behind the ""I Love NY"" campaign, is back with a new idea: He proposes that New Yorkers welcome the GOP in August with a display of light. The plan emerges from a desire to show anger at what the GOP and the Bush Administration have done to our city, our nation and the world, while avoiding violent confrontations that could help the GOP in November. We urge readers to spread the word about this bright, peaceful and creative protest against the darkness of the Bush agenda (go to http://lightupthesky.org to download or e-mail, jessi@lightupthesky.org), and we hope those in the New York area will help light up the sky on August 30. http://lightupthesky.org/ ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:23:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: NY Republican Con/ Milton Glaser proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed With all due respect, is this a joke? Republicans are really going to feel the heat if the lights are on? Give me a break. It's a way out to give liberals an out for not showing up in the streets next month. As long as the lights are on. That'll show 'em. And the laughs get louder still. Frank Sherlock >From: Stephen Vincent >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: NY Republican Con/ Milton Glaser proposal >Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:22:21 -0700 > >FYI - In case you have not seen/hear about this notice - below - of an >event >for the NY Republican invention. The only alternative - and not likely >protest step - for editorial emphasis would be to turn out all the lights >in >NY each night of the convention (maybe it is an 'invention" - just saw what >I wrote!). It's felt like that dark with these folks already so long. > >Happy Independence Day! > >Stephen V > >Welcome to the Douglas Kelley Show List >http://dks.thing.net/ >art openings and stuff >(This is that other stuff.) > > >Dear Unidentified Friends and Relations, Casual Acquaintances and >Befuddled Curmudgeons of The Douglas Kelley Show List, > >The great Milton Glazer. the legendary talent who is both Thomas Edison >and Keith Richards of graphic design, fine Art and illustration and pop >publishing, whose natural gift for mass-marketing and pithy right-on >politics has come out with a very elegant solution to how New Yorkers >and their friends and loved ones can create a joyous, but visually >significant and beautifully nonviolent protest against the Republican >National Convention and what it represents. http://lightupthesky.org/ > >Through the DKS and the galleries I want to get a lot of the big time >big name artists involved with this, and to this end, I am sending this >out to you all as a feeler? The idea is simple- wander around your usual >haunts on the night of August 30th, 2004 carrying anything and >everything that will give off light and show you're thinking about peace >not war. Thank you very much, I think the rest is self explanatory. It >appeared on the Nation day before yesterday. http://lightupthesky.org/ -DK >______________ > >Light Up the Sky >by Milton Glaser > >http://lightupthesky.org/ > >from the NATION July 12, 2004 issue >This article can be found on the web at >http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040712&s=glaser > > >Milton Glaser, a longtime friend of The Nation and the designer behind >the ""I Love NY"" campaign, is back with a new idea: He proposes that >New Yorkers welcome the GOP in August with a display of light. The plan >emerges from a desire to show anger at what the GOP and the Bush >Administration have done to our city, our nation and the world, while >avoiding violent confrontations that could help the GOP in November. We >urge readers to spread the word about this bright, peaceful and creative >protest against the darkness of the Bush agenda (go to >http://lightupthesky.org to download or e-mail, >jessi@lightupthesky.org), and we hope those in the New York area will >help light up the sky on August 30. > >http://lightupthesky.org/ > > >------ End of Forwarded Message _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:40:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: NY Republican Con/ Milton Glaser proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have a modification of this... why not human burning a la Buddhist monks circa 1969...? luvieness and sparkles, j. > > The great Milton Glazer. the legendary talent who is both Thomas Edison > and Keith Richards of graphic design, fine Art and illustration and pop > publishing, whose natural gift for mass-marketing and pithy right-on > politics has come out with a very elegant solution to how New Yorkers > and their friends and loved ones can create a joyous, but visually > significant and beautifully nonviolent protest against the Republican > National Convention and what it represents. http://lightupthesky.org/ > > Through the DKS and the galleries I want to get a lot of the big time > big name artists involved with this, and to this end, I am sending this > out to you all as a feeler? The idea is simple- wander around your usual > haunts on the night of August 30th, 2004 carrying anything and > everything that will give off light and show you're thinking about peace > not war. Thank you very much, I think the rest is self explanatory. It > appeared on the Nation day before yesterday. http://lightupthesky.org/ -DK > ______________ > > Light Up the Sky > by Milton Glaser > > http://lightupthesky.org/ > > from the NATION July 12, 2004 issue > This article can be found on the web at > http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040712&s=glaser > > > Milton Glaser, a longtime friend of The Nation and the designer behind > the ""I Love NY"" campaign, is back with a new idea: He proposes that > New Yorkers welcome the GOP in August with a display of light. The plan > emerges from a desire to show anger at what the GOP and the Bush > Administration have done to our city, our nation and the world, while > avoiding violent confrontations that could help the GOP in November. We > urge readers to spread the word about this bright, peaceful and creative > protest against the darkness of the Bush agenda (go to > http://lightupthesky.org to download or e-mail, > jessi@lightupthesky.org), and we hope those in the New York area will > help light up the sky on August 30. > > http://lightupthesky.org/ > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:24:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the collapse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the collapse { nerve" them { takes all without a we'll go up go we'll a pity" the takes { them nerve" { later" no good print "bomb deeper /[g]+/ rhyme" up /[i]+/ { a print { up stupid } deeper in "freedom and "does them /[e]+/ } first { takes all without a destroy go up can't we'll a pity" the takes /[j]+/ "fuck nerve" { later" no good { "bomb deeper /[g]+/ rhyme" up /[i]+/ /[f]+/ a print print up stupid city" deeper in "freedom and "does kill /[e]+/ } first { takes us without a destroy on up can't freedom a } greater" up /[j]+/ "fuck nerve" { } no good { print deeper { } up } /[f]+/ a "in print up this city" a in makes and print kill /[e]+/ } and print takes us fury a this on up "i freedom a } greater" up } print nerve" print } no good /[h]+/ print deeper { } up } } a "in "i up this this a fury makes and print and } } and print and makes fury a this this up "i "in a } } up } { deeper print /[h]+/ good no will bombs fury { them "in deeper "our { this them this { "our deeper "in them { fury bombs will } print "fuck { cut "our "bomb } them we'll } "our } we'll them } "bomb "our a { "fuck print pity" will bombs without { them "in deeper "our { this them this { "our deeper "in them /[g]+/ fury bombs will } print "fuck /[f]+/ cut "our "bomb } them we'll nerve" "our } destroy them } print "our a { "fuck print pity" will bombs without { them print deeper "our { city" them this /[e]+/ "our nerve" freedom them /[g]+/ fury bombs will } print "fuck /[f]+/ cut "our in /[g]+/ them freedom nerve" "our /[e]+/ destroy them city" print "our a print "fuck { pity" will bombs without { them print a "our print city" them destroy /[e]+/ "our nerve" freedom them /[g]+/ in bombs cut } print "fuck /[f]+/ cut "our in /[g]+/ them freedom nerve" "our /[e]+/ destroy them city" print "our a print "fuck { without bombs bombs without { "fuck print a "our print city" them destroy /[e]+/ "our nerve" freedom them /[g]+/ in "our cut /[f]+/ "fuck print print { never will cut { "hold { course "our cut "our course { "hold { cut will never { print } will cut /[d]+/ print { and bombs cut print the { the print cut bombs and { "hold /[d]+/ cut will swerve" print { swerve" will cut { "hold { course "our cut "our course { "hold { cut bombs never { print } will cut } print { and bombs cut print the { the print cut bombs and { "hold /[d]+/ cut will swerve" print { swerve" will cut /[d]+/ "hold { course "our cut "our course { the { cut bombs never { print } will cut } print { never bombs cut { the { course print cut "our and { "hold /[d]+/ cut will swerve" print { swerve" will cut /[d]+/ "hold { and "our cut print course { the { cut bombs never { print } will cut } print { never bombs cut { the { course print cut "our and { "hold /[d]+/ cut will swerve" { { swerve" will cut /[d]+/ "hold { and "our cut print course { the { cut bombs never { print } cut will we we } "the "the { fighting we for" print "the print for" we fighting { "the "the } we we /[b]+/ "the "the /[b]+/ we we for" print "the { fighting we fighting { "the print for" we fighting /[b]+/ "the "the } we we } "the "the { fighting we for" print "the print for" we fighting { "the print } we we /[b]+/ "the "the /[b]+/ we we for" print "the { fighting we fighting { "the print for" we fighting /[b]+/ "the "the } we we } "the "the /[b]+/ fighting we for" print "the print for" we fighting { "the print } we we /[b]+/ "the "the /[b]+/ we we } print "the { fighting we for" { "the print for" we fighting /[b]+/ "the "the } we we } "the "the /[b]+/ fighting we for" print "the { for" we fighting { "the print } we we /[b]+/ "the "the /[b]+/ we we } print "the { fighting we for" { "the print for" we fighting /[b]+/ "the "the } we we } "the "the /[b]+/ fighting we for" print "the { for" we fighting { "the print } we we /[b]+/ "the "the "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ "\n"; "\n"; } { { /^$/ } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { } "\n"; "\n"; /^$/ { { >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; >= >= >= 1; 1; 1; _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:55:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hazel smith Subject: issue two of infLect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Volume Two of infLect: a journal of multimedia writing is now online >at www.ce.canberra.edu.au/inflect. This issue includes a diverse >range of innovative work by Camille Bacos and mIEKAL aND, Deena >Larsen, Christina McPhee, Pauline Masurel and Randy Nehila, Adrian >Miles, Jason Nelson and Alan Sondheim. > >Volume One can still be viewed in the archive. > >infLect is based in the University of Canberra Centre for Writing, >School of Creative Communication, at the University of Canberra. > >Editor: Hazel Smith > >Editorial Committee: Greg Battye, Jen Webb, Mitchell Whitelaw > >Editorial Advisors: Adrian Miles, Mark Amerika, John Cayley, Anne >Brewster, Roger T. Dean, Marjorie C. Luesebrink, Marjorie Perloff > >Webperson: Jordan Williams -- Dr. Hazel Smith Senior Research Fellow School of Creative Communication Deputy Director University of Canberra Centre for Writing http://www.ce.canberra.edu.au/writing Editor of Inflect http://www.ce.canberra.edu.au/inflect University of Canberra ACT 2601 phone 6201 5940 More about my creative work at www.australysis.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:09:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Prentice Subject: change of email address In-Reply-To: <200407030403.i6343Ksl005388@mx2.slc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to remove cprentice@slc.edu from the poetics listserv, and replace that email address with c-side@earthlink.net. If that cannot be accomplished by this means, please instruct me how to do so. Thanks. -Chris Prentice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:49:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Taylor Subject: Urgent Patriotic Poetics Submission Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SpiralBridge is seeking to publish on http://www.SpiralBridge.org a "patriotic" poem for the July 4th holiday. Please send your submission/s immediately to Submissions@SpiralBridge.org along with a photo and brief bio. and we'll have you published by the 4th. Enjoy your weekend. "What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible." -Theodore Roethke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.SpiralBridge.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On the contrary: the poem strikes me as entirely for "inner consumption." Andrew has already conceded that he would not have circulated the poem anywhere except on this list, since in the larger world its utterances would have been read as clearly racist. (Unlike here, I suppose, where we are too sophisticated for such judgments.) I don't see much evidence that it is about positioning the U.S./Canada in a larger world or how it exposes North American vulnerability. Certainly it is not meant to be read by the Taiwanese who are its ostensible subject, since it is written in an English from which they are depicted as alienated. The real problem here, though, is the assertion that the poem is "not about the Taiwanese"--that the "Taiwanese" are merely an empty signifier that demonstrates American/Canadian ignorance. Perhaps the poem would like to imagine itself reaching such a level of abstraction. But it is precisely the poem's specificity--the knowingness with which it plays upon anti-Asian stereotypes--that makes it what it is, and makes it so repugnant. The wealth of biographical detail Andrew has provided to back up the poem suggests that we should read it as nothing less than a Canadian's reaction to Taiwan. To say that "Taiwan" simply means nothing off this poem is essentially to empty the entire poem of its content, to let it off the hook, to evade responsibility. If anything, this interpretation would make my reaction to the poem even more negative: the Taiwanese are just there to be (further) exploited, caricatured solely for the purposes of making some abstract point. They would matter not at all. I don't think even Andrew believes that. Finally, I see no distance between "the person who speaks" and "the author" here. That does not mean that I see all of the poem's phrases being uttered by Andrew Loewen. What it does mean is that the framing mechanisms that would allow us to distinguish a speaker from an author--that would allow us to regard this as something like a dramatic monologue--are absent. We can read this poem as self-critical only by a wholesale act of negation--by "flipping" the whole thing and suggesting that it is all meant as a condemnation of what it purports to endorse--and not because of its gaps or its unstable ironies or because it sets up any kind of place within itself where we might stand and grasp the failures of its logic. Tim http://tympan.blogspot.com ------------------------------ >Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:36:04 CDT >From: zavia001 >Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE >Actually I liked the poem. One of its good points is that it is not meant >for inner consumption only but for a larger world where North America is >occupying today a very specific, and vulnerable, place. Vulnerable in terms >of what kind of opinions other people hold about it. Not flattering >opinions, not in the least, I should say. I am not an American or Canadian >and this poem is relevant for me. Peoples and nations outside the US, or >the West in general, (strangly the poem sounds American rather than >Canadian to a foreign ear) have to deal with the presence of this enormous >blind power on the earth. The poem shows the way of being an Amerinadian or >Canarican that seldom reveals itself in contemporary poetry. It is not >about the Taiwanese, 'Taiwanes' could be replaced by dozens or even >hundreds of other ethnicities. it is, to a much greater extent, about >Americans and Canadians. The poem says something like: "I am rich and >pampered and powerful and impatient and I do not understand how you guys >can be otherwise, In my mind I can understand everything and preach all >kinds of noble ideas but in my unmeditated and unconscious reactions to >things different here is what I am, irritable, unaccepting of difference >and it is not in my power to control those feelings. They are gut feelings. >Deal with them. " And it says much more because there is distance between >the person who speaks and the author. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:56:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Poetry & literary events in England Comments: To: men2@columbia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try to contact martinstannard@ntlworld.com he's a london poet maybe he can help you tell him dalachinsky says hello ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Changing of the Guard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Make Every Vote Count, PAC P.O. Box 182 Leavenworth, WA 98826 Sponsored by Two Rivers Organic Farms=20 INVITES YOU TO AN EVENING AT THE FARM JULY 24 AT 6 P.M. OUR PURPOSE: Raise money to DEFEAT the GOP incumbent ENJOY APPETIZERS SLOW SMOKED PORK SHOULDER=20 NICK'S ASIAN STYLE BARBECUED SALMON VARIOUS SIDE DISHES, INCLUDING QUINCY CORN TWO RIVERS FARM ORGANIC SALAD MIX=20 DESSERT WINE, BEER, OTHER BEVERAGES Entertainment includes music by Campbell Road. See them at = http://www.valleyint.com/~jandj/. DONATION: $50/person ($25 where Cirumstances warrant) All proceeds go = directly to the PAC and will be used for newspaper and radio ads for the = purpose of helping voters understand why they should vote for the = nominee of the National Democratic Party, whoever that may be. All = checks payable to: Make Every Vote Count (MEVC) PAC; MAIL TO: MEVC, = P.O.BOX 182 LEAVENWORTH, WA 98826 We look forward to seeing you at the Farm. Please RSVP to = nstemm@tworiversfarm.com. Thanks. =20 ______ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:57:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While Timothy's thinking and writing are eloquent, well-stated, and lucid, I can't help but feel that he's indulging in paranoia in imagining that the North American white readership will respond to this as a reaction to all of Asia, lumped together. I can't agree with him when he says "I am--preemptively, as it were--eliding 'Taiwan' with 'Asia' or 'the Orient' because that is precisely what happens as the images you use enter American discourse". He may be right that American discourse can support little distinction between Taiwanese and Asian, but the fact that the poem uses Taiwanese (or variably Tiawanese, which I really saw as just an occasional typo) means that the poem is--even in its oddball way--going beyond the borders of American discourse. "Asian" as an identity only means something in the diaspora, where elite high schools and colleges have student organizations filled with kids surnamed Li, Sasaki, and Kim. The Chinese word for "Asia" itself is a translation from the european languages, and literally means--if you break it down by character, though few Chinese speakers bother to think of it this way--"Secondary Continent". Why would anyone in China want to identify with Asia if it made them ipso-facto secondary? And while I can philosophically comprehend, from a consideration of power dynamics, why Timothy would say "this is the final asymmetry: this is why the statement 'All Taiwanese eat dogs' is not the same as the statement 'All Americans carry guns.'" But from a personal view, as an American who has both eaten dog (doesn't taste like chicken) and has had Chinese people, searching for a conversation topic, start talking to me about how cool guns are, I don't see it that way. Sure, "All Americans carry guns" is not racist, but then neither is, in and of itself, "All Taiwanese eat dogs." I'll grant that "All Taiwanese eat dogs" can _become_ racist in specific contexts (and I'm not exactly defending Andrew's it's-on-the-poetics-list-so-it's-okay point, either), but the words themselves can and often do remain pretty neutral, even if exaggerated (because a lot of Taiwanese don't eat dogs, just as a lot of Americans don't own--let alone carry--guns). What's interesting to me is the theoretical assumptions of the criticisms and defences of Andrew's poem. I've always believed myself to side with reader-response and death-of-the-author, but if that means following Timothy's racist-because-of-the-american-context, then I guess I'll have to re-think my Barthes and Fish. Basically, I think it's got to be very hard for a foreigner in any country not to have very similar reactions to those stated in Andrew's poem. A Canadian in Taiwan shouts, WHY DO THE TIAWANESE feed their young to techno-capitalism and WHY DO THE TIAWANESE hate the air and WHY DO THE TAIWANESE run over dogs like nothing and WHY DO THE TAIWANESE want to pay my student loans where a French person in America shouts "Why do the Americans feed techno-capitalism to their young? Why do Americans hate the air? Why are Americans so fat? And why do I want to study English and work in America and make a lot of money?" Not only does the end of Andrew's poem break free of the simplistic complaints about Taiwanese popular culture, but in so doing it gives us a hint to the symbiotic relationship between ruler and ruled we've been warned about: I hate them, but I cannot leave them. And in saying this, not only is it unclear who now is ruling and who is ruled, but we also have a much more tempered hatred, which might even one day break into love. Who knows? None of this is to say that I'm wild about the poem. It makes me feel uncomfortable, and for a very different reason why I think it makes Timothy uncomfortable. Part of it is that I don't like a rant as a poem, and part of it is that I'm too much of a Modernist to want poetry accompanied with an explanation, by the poet, of what "the author is trying to say". But there's more going on in there than Timothy is willing to give it credit for. Particularly, that it's a poem--as I read it, anyway--about culture shock, and not about imperialism. Lucas ________________________________________ "There are two ways of knowing, under standing and over bearing. The first is called wisdom. The second is called winning arguments." --Kenneth Rexroth Lucas Klein LKlein@cipherjournal.com 11 Pearl Street New Haven, CT 06511 ph: 203 676 0629 www.CipherJournal.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > Yes I think Tim's remarks are a great gift to this list - and, ideally, can > be again amplified beyond the reach here. > In no way, trying to compromise what Tim has to say, Andrew's > flipped-outness - at least it seems to me - resembles a real dark phase of > "culture shock", in the case of which where one becomes deeply immersed in > another culture and comes to realize one is not in charge and one's > vocabularies no longer work, etc. I have seen many freak out (as in your > poem. Etc.) or (minimally) spend the rest of their expat time downgrading, > complaining etc. about the local. At medium best, the indigenous are > patient, or at least try to work with you in terms of your intended value as > a guest. (I remember - in 1960 - the Nigerian Government deported a first > group Peace Corps Volunteer who - on a postcard - wrote about some open > garbage on a Lagos Street). And let's not even begin to talk about Insurgent > responses to USA Occupation in Iraq. > At real best, overtime and with humility and a lot of work, a different > kind of chemistry or dialogue takes place in which one and "the other" get > to a much more interesting zone. > > So for Andrew, if I may, I would suggest either return to Canada or cool it > until this weird 'hysteric authority' disappears and see what then appears. > > Stephen V > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:36 PM Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > Yes I think Tim's remarks are a great gift to this list - and, ideally, can > be again amplified beyond the reach here. > In no way, trying to compromise what Tim has to say, Andrew's > flipped-outness - at least it seems to me - resembles a real dark phase of > "culture shock", in the case of which where one becomes deeply immersed in > another culture and comes to realize one is not in charge and one's > vocabularies no longer work, etc. I have seen many freak out (as in your > poem. Etc.) or (minimally) spend the rest of their expat time downgrading, > complaining etc. about the local. At medium best, the indigenous are > patient, or at least try to work with you in terms of your intended value as > a guest. (I remember - in 1960 - the Nigerian Government deported a first > group Peace Corps Volunteer who - on a postcard - wrote about some open > garbage on a Lagos Street). And let's not even begin to talk about Insurgent > responses to USA Occupation in Iraq. > At real best, overtime and with humility and a lot of work, a different > kind of chemistry or dialogue takes place in which one and "the other" get > to a much more interesting zone. > > So for Andrew, if I may, I would suggest either return to Canada or cool it > until this weird 'hysteric authority' disappears and see what then appears. > > Stephen V > > > > Stephen V > > > > > > > > Timothy, > > > > I have only been catching only bits of this and missed the beginning > > of the tread.. but I started scanning this morning and was totally > > engaged... > > > > though I think it is for an intended for one, or a public act of great > > importance that unfortunately has to be repeated over and over. > > > > so, thank you for your time and words and yet I am guessing, a somewhat > > painful gift, to always be put in the position of educator of racism, > > or that could be my projection... I hope you do not feel alone in your > > position, I hope you do not feel like the soul educator of racism on > > this list......... > > > > thank you again.. > > > > kari > > > > > > > > On Thursday, July 1, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Timothy Yu wrote: > > > >> Andrew: > >> > >> I must say that despite your very thorough attempts to explain what > >> your intentions were in writing "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE," I'm still > >> pretty confused about them. You seem to dismiss the poem itself as > >> "lame" and suggest very strongly that it was intended primarily as a > >> provocation--that you were hoping, even expecting, to get a reaction > >> like the one I provided. (Why? So that you could play "gotcha" when > >> the inevitable cry of racism went up?) This would suggest that the > >> poem's content was quite consciously chosen to offend--that it was > >> written in full awareness of the way it could easily be seen as a > >> piece of racist writing; in short, that it was merely a carrier of > >> provocative payload, rather than a work of art. And at the same time > >> you claim that the poem does in some way represent "the Real" of your > >> cultural experience as a white Canadian in Taiwan--in other words, > >> that it is not only a well-crafted poem but a very good one. > >> > >> The hypothetical "situations" you describe imply, if I am not > >> mistaken, that my reading of your poem is akin to racist behavior, > >> because my reading proceeds from knee-jerk assumptions about the > >> poem's rhetoric and about your intentions. You also suggest that > >> your position as a white Canadian in an overwhelmingly ethnically > >> Chinese country makes you a "visible minority" (to use that Canadian > >> phrase that has always puzzled me), analogous to the position of > >> non-white racial groups in Canada or the U.S. In other words, that > >> there is a perfect symmetry between your own position and that of a > >> racial minority here at home, and that because of that we ought to > >> empathize with and respect your position. > >> > >> But these arguments are false. Racism is in fact a profound > >> asymmetry--not just in politics and economics but in ideology and > >> discourse, and not just nationally but globally. As a white > >> English-speaking Canadian, you enter a place like Taiwan as someone > >> who possesses a valuable commodity--your language itself--and are > >> hence granted a certain level of authority, as you know from your > >> role as a teacher. And you are also clearly aware that people in > >> Asia are quite capable of making a fetish of whiteness itself, > >> viewing it as a standard of beauty and power. This is a position > >> radically different than, say, that of an Asian immigrant to the U.S. > >> or Canada, who, even if he or she possesses the same level of > >> education you do, likely has no skill or trait regarded as valuable > >> save raw labor-power, and whose cultural and linguistic difference is > >> regarded not as an asset but as an insurmountable barrier to > >> assimilation. And it is certainly different than that of, say, the > >> second- or third-generation Asian American, who may in every way be > >> culturally indistinguishable from his or her white peers but who > >> continues to be racialized, regarded as a foreigner. Unlike you, > >> most racial minorities have no other home to go to except where they > >> are. > >> > >> Given that you purport to critique all kinds of racial assumptions > >> and essentialism, I find it remarkable that you seek to defend your > >> poem by appealing to the authenticity of your own experiences in > >> Taiwan, implying that the rest of us are simply too ignorant to > >> understand your writing: "you have to go there to know there." Well, > >> the two people who have criticized you on this list do have such > >> experience. That I may have more in common with you than with your > >> Taiwanese neighbor is precisely the point; I visited Taiwan several > >> times as a teenager and lived there for a year, and experienced the > >> same kinds of cultural shocks and confusions you report having. > >> Indeed, these shocks were even more bizarre for me, since I > >> experienced them in a society where everyone did, after all, "look > >> like me," even if I did not speak the language or participate in the > >> culture. So I think I do have the requisite experience to understand > >> what you are talking about. That I do not, despite that, write poems > >> that sound like your tirade suggests that maybe race does matter. My > >> critique proceeds not from an identification of myself with a > >> resident of Taiwan, but from my position as an Asian American who > >> sees exactly how your rhetoric will play to the home crowd. > >> > >> You ask how ethnicity factors into my own writing. That's really > >> more for others to decide. I have an essay in the latest issue of > >> _Meanjin_, "How to Write a Chinese Poem," that has some bearing on > >> that question, and if you are so inclined you can read it or the blog > >> entry from which the essay is drawn > >> (http://tympan.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_tympan_archive.html#93164632). > >> My larger point, though, is that the role of race in my writing is > >> something that vastly exceeds my own intentions; whatever I think I > >> am doing, the writing enters into and participates in a larger > >> discourse in ways I might never anticipate. What seems to me like a > >> pure poem of personal experience--or, in my case, a parody of such a > >> poem--may be read by a wider audience as a profound statement of the > >> Asian American condition, and/or may serve to ratify the most > >> invidious stereotypes of Asians. The best I can do is try to be > >> aware of how this may happen--of how racial discourse is always > >> already in operation--and try not simply to be used by it. > >> > >> That's why, in the final analysis, I can have no sympathy for your > >> defense of your poem as a testament to real personal experience, or > >> by the statement (which I have no reason to doubt) that the speaker > >> of the poem is not you. If such defenses were adequate, every > >> pinhead senator who spouted slurs against blacks or gays or Asians > >> would be immediately absolved upon uttering the cynical words, "I did > >> not intend to offend anyone" or "I was not speaking of an entire > >> group." The point is that such rhetoric participates in and ratifies > >> a racist discourse, one that a speaker cannot disavow simply by > >> disavowing the *intention* of causing harm. And this is the final > >> asymmetry: this is why the statement "All Taiwanese eat dogs" is not > >> the same as the statement "All Americans carry guns." The latter may > >> be an erroneous national stereotype, but it is not racist, especially > >> when uttered on an American listserv; the former, especially when > >> uttered on an American listserv, is racist, because it is connected > >> to a characteristic seen here not as national but racial (it's > >> Jessica Hagedorn, a Filipino American writer, who has a book > >> defiantly called _Dogeaters_) and because it is meant to place that > >> race outside the realm of the civilized or human (food taboos being > >> one of the most fundamental markers of a culture). > >> > >> So when you assert that the Taiwanese care only about science and not > >> the humanities--even if you have some statistical evidence to support > >> this (though I doubt anyone who has spent time in an American > >> university is much more sanguine about American students' attitude > >> toward the humanities)--you play into and ratify, however distantly, > >> the structure of belief that leads a college recruiter at a job fair > >> to hand me a brochure for the college's engineering school even > >> before I have opened my mouth. When you portray the Taiwanese as > >> supplicants at the altar of global English, you play into and ratify > >> the beliefs of the student in my Stanford classroom who expresses > >> incredulity at the quality of my English. And when you put such > >> assertions in the structure of a "lame" poem that provides no > >> perspective from which such assertions can be critiqued, you play > >> right into that structure of racism, whether you intend to or not. I > >> don't need to turn "Asians" or "the Orient" into one "homogeneous, > >> undifferentiated mass," as you put it; other folks are already doing > >> that for, and to, me. > >> > >> Tim > >> http://tympan.blogspot.com > >> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:34:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks jonathan penton for finally sending me this poem unworthy of anyone's attention thanks to mr yu for all his incites to andrew for his whining and in/depth auto-biography and "SMARTS" and thanks to this perceptive person, zavia, who stated, like i was about to do, that tiawanese/taiwanese can be replaced w/anything ala why not rhinoceri or why not chirkendooses or these tibetan monk(ie)s i'm listening to on the player right now chantin their ever-lovin buddhist brains out anyone ever read that one ( the chirkendoose i mean ) it sure taught me alot when i was a kid w/ it's timeless ole adage of "it depends on how you look at things .. it depends on how you look at things.." now i ain't tough just a poor prejudiced uneducated laborer's son from brooklyn - a kike - a christkiller a victim - the guy responsible for all the ills of the world ah christ the jew freud the jew einstein the ethiopian marx the the comedian andrew a whimp from canada who wants to act "AMERICAN" all canadians are essentially pussies i mean gentle folk ( just saw bowling for columbine tonight - 7000,000 guns and only one murder a yr up there - not counting deer wild boar and big black grizzly bear ) - not enough anger or provocation there so andrew brought it here to the list where he wants it be like craig no backstroking or channel swimming today no privatizing the lingo the message just provoking the other whimps into reaction ( whimp is that a rac(y)ist term?) in fact most folk who react on this list react like all the sweet canadians i know ( including the few i know that wanna be tough guys ) most canadian poets i've ever heard have not bite - i heard 3 yesterday one was very cute and sharp the other two silly and shallow - i know one really curmudginy ( shit did i mess up that one ) poet in toronto sound/poet smart guy loves doowop and the blues got real soul for a torontoite ( i love him - no not like that andrew ) ah that's not fair steve you've got lots of canadian friends and love them all yeah but only one of em's got any guts to speak his mind you mean one other beside andrew don't you yeah that's what i mean - what about michael snow or paul haines - oh i don't/didn't really know 'em personally just casual conversation but they sure got somethin haines had guts it was the albert ayler in him the jazz he and snow contain hey what about the king of suicide rock leonard cohen or neil young yeah true guts/drugs very americanized very much into using the colonized language to its fullest very much very much wow these tibetans are really having at it why do the pekingese have funny eyes and fluffy tales why does this fuckin cd player skip so much alla time? .....>>>>> what the f is a cockalorum does anyone out there know? why do the canooks even tolerate us ? those poor colonized souls we always forget they are themselves colonized by our daddy who we wiped out in 1776 and who now follows us blindly into any war we lead him poor colonized andrew came here to be free free to say what he wants free to bare arms to push buttons be naked in the land of the free and the home of Big brother ..... andrew blowin over american like acid rain ..acid rain anyone remember acid rain and where it came from....? l sd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:42:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: CKUT Radio: Indigenous Resistance at Kanehsatake MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/27548.php CKUT Radio: Indigenous Resistance at Kanehsatake by Stefan Christoff . Friday July 02, 2004 at 08:32 PM christoff@resist.ca 514 398 6788 ----------------- Listen to a one hour documentary produced at CKUT Radio in Montreal, which explores the ongoing indigenous struggle on the Mohawk territory of Kanehsatake. In recent months the indigenous community of Kanehsatake, located just outside of Montreal, Quebec has been a focal point for indigenous self-determination struggles in North America (Turtle Island). This 1 hour documentary highlights the recent developments of the political struggle of Kanehsatake, focusing on the ongoing efforts of Kanehsatake community members to resist a possible multi-police force invasion, combined of Provincial, Federal and Kanehsatake police. The community of Kanehsatake's resistance to this invasion and implementation of a largely unpopular Mohawk policing agreement, is viewed by many in Kahehsatake as an attack on indigenous self-determination. The documentary begins with speeches which were given at a solidarity rally held in Kanehsatake on May 20th, the rally brought together Mohawk people and supporters from across Quebec and Ontario. To listen / download the documentary on Kanehsatake visit: http://www.radio.indymedia.org/news/2004/06/1821.php To read an in-depth article about Kanehsatake visit: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=5556 http://www.ckut.ca ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:23:54 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the hr before dawn if if there is a day... 4:10...wet..humid..edgy..drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:21:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Color's Torrid Function! Subject: Yeah, Monkey likes to be petted. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii xanaxpop mobile poem blog http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:12:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://yourdictionary.com/ what the f is a cockalorum does anyone out there know? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:20:00 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems to me there are at least two, and maybe three or four, fundamentally different but still related questions that are being conflated in discussion of Andrew's poem, and since they are, all of them, important in terms of both poetry per se and larger political and cultural issues, I think it's worth taking the time to separate them. 1. First, there is the question of whether Andrew's poem works as a poem, whether he has written it in such a way that it communicates what he wants it to communicate in its content, regardless of how that content is understood by others. My own first impression, as well as Timothy's-and probably Andrew's as well, based on his own assessment of the poem as lame and something he would not have posted elsewhere-was that it did not. (I'm not going to say anything about the responses that have been posted since Andrew's autobiographical commentary, since it's impossible for me, or for anyone, to know the degree to which those responses were shaped by Andrew's disclosures.) We could not, for example, have known from the poem that it was written by a Canadian living and working in Taiwan, a context that I think would have made a difference in how I understood the poem; nor could we have known that some of the things in the poem which, to me anyway, appeared simply as part of the rant-for example, the line about Taiwanese keeping things in their basement, when, as Andrew pointed out, Taiwanese houses/buildings don't have basements-were in fact accurate descriptions about Taiwan. At the very least, this lack of context means that there was no way I could have read the poem with the specificity Andrew clearly, based on his later explanations and commentary, wanted it to be read. And so, for me, the poem does not work, and one of the ways in which I would characterize this "not-working" is Andrew's abdication of responsibility as the writer of the poem to make this specificity clear in whatever way would make sense within the context of the poem. In other words, if he wanted the poem to be read as being spoken by someone going through a particularly difficult stage of culture shock, then there should have been something in the poem to make that clear; if he wanted there to be a distinction in the poem, and for people to make a distinction in reading the poem, between culture shock and racism (about which more below), then there should have been something in the poem to make that clear. And these devices I am saying should have been in there would not need to have been obvious or didactic; they could have been subtle and open to misreading-as all poems are anyway-and they might still have been unsuccessful, but they would have been there and we would then be arguing about whether those devices worked, not whether we should be granting either Andrew or the poem the benefit of the doubt because of what he has chosen to reveal about the poem after the fact. 2. Related to this is the question of what the consequences are of this lack of context for how the use of the word Taiwanese and the specific questions about the Taiwanese are understood. In the absence of Andrew's disclosures about himself and his intentions for the poem, it is true that the word Taiwanese-misspelled or otherwise-could be replaced by just about anything, but that does not make it not-racist. Imagine replacing the word with "the Jews" or "the Blacks" or any other group whose otherness has been racialized. Few of us who belong to those groups, I think, would stand for it-unless there was a context that made the use of the group meaningful beyond being a mere cipher for otherness. More to the point, the idea that any group's name-racial, national or otherwise-and therefore identity and cultural specificity, can be used with impunity as a decontextualized cipher is one that should give us pause. Not because there isn't a way in which different groups who have been treated as "other" do not share similar experiences-there is, after all, a way in which racism is racism no matter who the object of racial hatred happens to be-but because such decontextualization is precisely one of the privileges that dominant groups arrogate to themselves. It is, to use my own experience in the US as an example, what happens-or at least what used to happen when well-meaning white liberals would talk about the need for "us all" to be color-blind without realizing that what they really meant by color-blindness was that we, meaning white people, should treat everyone, and everyone else should think of themselves, as if they were white. Other consequences, again, given the lack of specificity: if we do not know that the poem is spoken by someone undergoing culture shock, a particularly hard case of it, and if there is no way in the poem for the reader, especially a reader who has never experienced culture shock, to gain a critical distance from the culture shock being experienced by the speaker and out of which, and in response to which, the speaker is speaking, how is it possible for those questions in Andrew's poem which do, in fact, either state or play on racist stereotypes not to be read as unadorned restatements of those stereotypes? In other words, absent Andrew's commentary and explanation, it is hard for me to see how you can read the poem as not doing precisely what Timothy describes it as doing in racial terms, even if it is also possible-though I will admit this possibility is for me a real stretch-to imagine a different, potentially non-racist, reading. Like it or not, the poem participates in and perpetuates racist discourse in a racist way precisely because there does not seem to be a consciousness in the poem itself that the discourse is racist. 3. Which brings me to the third question, which I think is very interesting, but is essentially separate from consideration of Andrew's poem as a poem: the relationship between the kind of culture shock Andrew describes and which some responses to the poem have suggested is common to anyone who lives in a country/culture/language context not their own and racism. It is true that culture shock is not in and of itself racism, but that does not mean that because it is culture shock it does not remain untouched by racists stereotypes and imaginings. I lived in South Korea as an English teacher for a total of about 18 months, and I remember well what it was like to come home and be shocked by the image in the mirror of my bearded, Eastern-European, what people in the States call obviously Jewish-looking face after a day of living in a society where not one single image that I saw around me reflected who I was. On some level, I'd "forgotten" what I looked like. And I remember as well the difficulty of dealing with Koreans' emphasis on the harmony of the group over the feelings of the individual. And of the ways in which I was racialized and treated as an oddity. Old women on the subway would come up to me and stroke the hair on my arms because it was such a strange thing for them, my otherness providing permission for them to cross social boundaries they would not otherwise cross. And I also remember how difficult it was for me at first to separate the sexualized racist stereotypes of Asian women that I could not have helped inheriting from my own culture from the real women I met, and especially those with whom I have relationships, sexual and otherwise. And how easy it was for me to "read" the women I met who worked in the sex trade there in terms of those stereotypes-it was impossible not to socialize with my Korean male friends and not meet these women. And I remember well my own frustrations with feeling misunderstood by people I felt I could barely understand, and how angry I became when I could not escape my own outsider status. And so on and so on and so on. If I had been in France or some other country where the people looked more like me, about which there was not the kind of racist stereotyping that goes on in the US about Asians, I might have felt very similar things, but I would not have had racist stereotypes through which to express those feelings. In Korea, I had those stereotypes, and I would be lying if I said I did not on occasion use them to talk about and feel through the culture shock I was experiencing. Andrew may have been trying to write something about culture shock in his poem; the fact that culture shock is not in and of itself racist, however, does not mean that the culture shock Andrew expresses in the poem is not informed by the racism of his own culture, whether or not he is actively, consciously a racist, and so I come back to my original point about why the poem fails to do what Andrew says he wants it to do: there is no consciousness within the poem that attends to these complexities and for the poem to do what Andrew wants it to, such a consciousness needs to be present. Otherwise, the poem, as a poem, not as a stand-in for Andrew, or as a comment on anything other than itself, cannot escape its own racism. Rich Newman _________________________________ Richard Jeffrey Newman Associate Professor, English Chair, International Education Committee Nassau Community College One Education Drive Garden City, NY 11530 O: (516) 572-7612] F: (516) 572-8134 newmanr@ncc.edu www.ncc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:10:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Circular Descent; By Raymond Bianchi In-Reply-To: <20040703092108.46720.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit www.blazevox.org/books/raycd.htm Dear Buffalo Listers My book Circular Descent is now available from Blaze Vox books. I want to thank Geoffrey Gatza, Editor for believing in this project he is a good friend and a good editor and I am in his debt. I am going to be reading Circular Descent at various venues over the next six months starting with Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee on August 20th, 2004 in the Red Letter series where I am reading with my friend William Allegrezza. I want to thank Stacy Szymanzek for this opportunity. The link for sale of my book is above. Many of the poems in this book have been influenced by many of you in Brazil, Bolivia, Dallas, New York and Chicago. A poet's work is never created in a vacuum and I am fortunate to have had such a great and stimulating group of poets as friends to influence my work along with a life rich in experiences, and languages. I want especially to thank Peter Gizzi, Catherine Daly, and Mark Tardi for the blurbs I am humbled by them and I also want to thank Charles Bernstein, Pierre Joris and Kerri Sonnenberg for reading the manuscript. I also want to thank Waltraud Haas, my wife for the cover art. I hope to see many of you at readings this fall and around Chicago and other places as well. Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ Product Information: · Paperback: 110 Pages · Binding: Perfect-Bound · Publisher: BlazeVOX [books] (JULY 2004) · Size: 6" x 9" | ISBN: 0-9759227-2-6 By. Raymond L. Bianchi Advance Praise for Circular Descent At the dangerous intersection of Liberty and Empire, Raymond Bianchi breaks the sound barrier. These “multi-colored sequences” are up to date heart-breaking cubistic international songs in “real time,” trafficking in corporate corruption and working people, desire and everyday life. This is wild and honest work. -- PETER GIZZI This political and poetical post-existential, post-noir writing speaks through an interrelated host of filmmakers, cultural historians, and other artists. Bianchi's recombinatory prose poetics results in recognizably formal repetition and variation,"and he would be remarkable" for these sprawling stanzas set with intersections and identifications drawn from the catholicity of America's most Catholic city, Chicago.-- CATHERINE DALY Finally a book of poetry that contains more than dancing skeletons or sighs at sunset, Ray Bianchi's CIRCULAR DESCENT spins with knee-breaking centrifugal force. The sheer scope is staggering -- Marcel Duchamp, Catholicism, the Cold War, butchers, suburban sprawl, steelmill workers, Saddam Hussein, and the 1917 White Sox -- and surely somewhere Witold Gombrowicz and Viktor Shklovsky are smiling. Bianchi's a startingly original writer and CIRCULAR DESCENT radiates with the intensity of "Bull Connor's firehoses ripping Andy Warhol's hair off by the root." -- MARK TARDI Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Color's Torrid > Function! > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:21 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Yeah, Monkey likes to be petted. > > > xanaxpop > mobile poem blog > http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ > > > > > ****************************************************************** > ********* > > Lewis LaCook > > net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > > XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ > > Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ > > Cell:440.258.9232 > > Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:10:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Todd Swift Subject: July poetry now online at nthposition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nthposition Poetry Bulletin, July 2004 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ July issue now online 15 poets featured at http://www.nthposition.com/poetry.php including: Philip Fried, Daphne Gottlieb, Srikanth Reddy, Jen Hadfield, George Ellenbogen, Maria Nazos, Brentley Frazer and Antony Dunn. * August issue to feature new work by, among others: John Welch, David Prater and Jill Beauchesne. * Now reading for September issue. * Please forward to interested parties. To be removed from this list, please reply with "unsubscribe" in subject line. Please excuse cross-posting. _ _ Todd Swift,poetry editor - http://www.nthposition.com readers' poll winner in the 2004 Utne Independent Press Awards over 350,000 visitors in the last year ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:12:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Looking for Poems on Paintings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a lot of poems about female artists in my first book (DaDaDa, Salt, 2003) -- one of those is online at m.a.g.; of the painters, many of these poems are partially based on collections of their paintings online & in well known books (mostly of female artists, California artists, outsider artists). It was great fun giving them the book! to -- extra bonus writing about work of alive people. All best, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:29:45 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: [bill@thescream.ca: [LEX] last of the coach house culture factories] Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT LAST OF THE COACH-HOUSE CULTURE FACTORIES By=A0John Barber Saturday, July 3, 2004 =20 There once was a golden age when culture occurred in the laneways of centra= l Toronto. Every other coach house in the Annex was an experimental theatre; one on the University of Toronto campus turned into Marshall McLuhan's chaotic but imposingly named Centre for Culture and Technology, the scruffy headquarters for what became a worldwide revolution in communications theory, shoved out of sight by a disapproving university administration. Most coach-house culture withered when the window boxes arrived. The rough laneway laboratories became pretty and banal, scourged by gentrification. But at 401 Huron Street (Rear), probably the most famous address in Canadia= n letters, culture still happens, miraculously unmolested. The Coach House Press has been making books there for almost 40 years, and every year it makes hundreds more. To say that Coach House "publishes" books would diminish the magic of what really happens within the old brick walls of these interlinked buildings on bpNichol Lane, named for the late poet who is now its patron saint. It is a= n amazingly resilient little factory where some of the most famous writers in Canada first learned to read proofs and glue bindings. Paper and ink go in one door and art comes out another. In the middle is a fluctuating commune of editors, typesetters, printers and designers centred on Stan Bevington, = a bearded master printer and cultural genius, who has been there from the beginning. But the rumble of the presses on this plain but sacred ground is not likely to last long. Next week, survey crews are arriving to prepare for the redevelopment of the site and the likely destruction of the old garages. Mr= . Bevington's landlord, Campus Co-op Residences, wants to replace them with more student housing and appears determined to squeeze out the Coach House Press. Everybody is in a bind, according to Mr. Bevington, who has spent the past year negotiating for survival, without success. The co-op, which operates dozens of rundown rooming houses in the neighbourhood -- and which rented the Huron Street garages to Mr. Bevington for 38 years without a lease -- needs to rejuvenate to survive. But Stan Bevington needs to stay exactly where he is. "A move is as bad as a fire," Mr. Bevington said in an interview this week, citing traditional wisdom of the printing trade. And even if he accepts the co-op's offer to lease him office space in the new building, he would never be able to work there. "They're very clear they don't want the presses in the new building." Coach House disappeared once before, its publishing arm bankrupted by an overambitious expansion into the mainstream a decade ago. But Mr. Bevington kept on making gorgeous books and catalogues for an eager market while gradually rebuilding the company's literary program. Under new editor Alana Wilcox, it once again produces an annual list of new poetry and avant-garde fiction. Ms. Wilcox savours the tang of printer's ink in the atmosphere of her workplace. "Financially, it's ideal for us to print in-house," she said. "But also culturally. Authors come to see their own books being made. We ge= t school tours, we get pilgrims from all over." "Michael Ondaatje brings around every foreign visitor who comes to this city," Mr. Bevington noted. "Just the list of people who've sat on that chair," the editor continued, drawing out the stories . . . The feet that have sculpted the deeply worn treads of the old wooden staircase, the memory of not-yet famous authors washing the covers of returned books in the upstairs sink, preparing them for resale, the smell of molten lead in the antique, still functional Linotype machine by the door. "This building has important cultural value," Ms. Wilcox said. "It's a kind of living museum, a place where people can learn about culture and bookmaking as it continues on." The landlord has offered a glass case for a few artifacts in the new building, but the book producers will have none of that. The integrity of the building is an important part of the cultural ideal that has kept the presses running for almost 40 years, according to Mr. Bevington. "We are aesthetic around here and we are committed to real things," he said. "We ar= e completely against veneer." Thus the "curious fight," as he calls it, "to maintain a silly old decaying building exactly as it is, a culture factory that anybody else in their right mind would have slapped aluminum siding on long ago." The fight went badly this week when bureaucrats in the city's department of heritage preservation services told the printer that his shop met none of the criteria required for historical designation -- even though Heritage Toronto, a semi-official advisory group, has already recommended that it be designated. The ramshackle complex's lack of gingerbread and window boxes appears to be fatal. So now, as he deals with escalating demands for renovations from a landlord determined to evict him, the printer is looking around for new saviours, hi= s "delightfully hands-off relationship" with Campus Co-op at an end. Mr. Bevington said he would buy the buildings if he could. In the meantime, he is preparing to close shop -- as quiet and competent as ever, but mystified by the attitude of cultural bureaucrats in City Hall. If somethin= g as rare, as remarkable and as culturally significant as the Coach House Press isn't worth saving -- or even trying to save -- what else could be? jbarber@globeandmail.ca -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...9th coll'n - what's left (Talon) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Urgent Patriotic Poetics Submission In-Reply-To: <20040703044928.9852.qmail@mail_103.selectedhosting.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > "What we need is more > people who specialize > in the impossible." > > -Theodore Roethke I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:52:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: Urgent Patriotic Poetics Submission MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here here! What more fitting thing to do for our independence day than to celebrate the independence we have instilled! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Urgent Patriotic Poetics Submission > > "What we need is more > > people who specialize > > in the impossible." > > > > -Theodore Roethke > > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > I would like to celebrate the Independence of Iraq. > > Stephen Vincent > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [soa] If I Get Shot by the Police MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/146789.php http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/27563.php If I Get Shot by the Police Maybe the tempest of blue-on-black homicide hasnt rained down on you. ... burying hope with one hand and exhuming a twisted justice with the other. As a black man, whatever that means, Id better give you my take on things. If I get shot by the police, youll never hear it like it happened. If I get shot by the police, you should know that I wasnt a drug dealer, an ex-felon, or an addict. Better still, you should know that it doesnt matter. In my life, I met countless men and women whod been in each of those places. All had many things to teach me. Submitted by: Michelle Gross to Michael Novick ================================ *If I Get Shot by the Police By Adam Bahner *http://www.blackcommentator.com/95/95_guest_shot.html Maybe the tempest of blue-on-black homicide hasnt rained down on you. But the police slayings of unarmed black men that continue to grip America are a sinister eulogy; burying hope with one hand and exhuming a twisted justice with the other. As a black man, whatever that means, Id better give you my take on things. If I get shot by the police, youll never hear it like it happened. If I get shot by the police, you should know that I wasnt a drug dealer, an ex-felon, or an addict. Better still, you should know that it doesnt matter. In my life, I met countless men and women whod been in each of those places. All had many things to teach me. No matter what they say if I get shot by the police, I wasnt brandishing a firearm. I wasnt being aggressive. I may have been listening to music with a beat, but I wasnt a thug. I repeat: I wasnt a thug. Of course, nobody can be reduced to a slur. Who is a thug anyway? A boy-made-man by violent urban divestment? A boy whose image-world became a temple of saccharine Eurocentric consumerism? A boy who saw no intelligent visions of himself? An exile whose neighborhood was run-down, torn-down, rebuilt, and gentrified without him inside? Know that I tried to make a difference in these issues. I tried to add my nuts and bolts to Lowells scaffold of truth. If I get shot by the police, it wont be called a Musician Shooting,a Composer Shooting,or a Vocalist Shooting.The headlines wont say Orator Shooting,Scholar Shooting,Pianist ShootingSuperb Cook Shooting,or Loving Uncle Shooting.The headlines wont mention me at all. Theyll say Police Shooting,as though it makes no difference whether I was a man or a fire hydrant; as long as I got shot by a badge. Your television set wont say an author was shot by the police this evening.Only a man,a suspect,or a resident.I wont have an occupation, because that evokes dignity and worth. Only the police will be named by their occupation; to shoot defective humans like me. The newsreels will make real this fantasy. Dont buy the spin if I get shot by the police. I wont be gunned down,because gunning downaffirms the victim. Shootingaffirms the perpetrator. Police officers get gunned down,but others just get shot by them. Equal tragedy will get unequal rhetoric. Beware of this if I get shot by the police. publisher@ blackcommentator.com There will be no context if I get shot by the police. Ill be an anomaly. A trivia. A statistic. Time will pass. Ill be uttered at someones kitchen table during a TV commercial: Remember the guy they shot that year? No, the other one.Your local paper wont situate me in the history of police brutality. It wont be delivered with shrink-wrapped Cliffs Notes to the legacy of American ethnic cleansing. Every February, if I get shot by the police, I wont be acknowledged on the intercom at your local grocery chain. I wont appear next to sanitized, neutralized, and unrealized caricatures of Carver, Parks, and King. I wont be in the fifteen-second-spots on your local network affiliates that celebrate Black History. I wont be a topic as politicians remind us just how far weve come. The media will close-up the present as they trumpet closure of the past. You can bet on that if I get shot by the police. There will be no justice if I get shot by the police. My shooter will get paid administrative leave. Theyll rush before a conduct committee; union-approved with citizens removed. If they are exonerated, no charges will be filed. If they are reprimanded, no charges will be filed. If they are white, race wont be a factor. If they arent white, the question will be profane. Colleagues will give interviews, and be glad to have the officer back in action. Their family will be made a highlight of the difficult ordeal. I will be silent; beyond the chamber of fiction. A never-was-didnt-happen casserole in the atrophied kitchen of critical vision. A raindrop in the flooding genetic memory of some chocolate infant, unreal and unacknowledged in the tribulations of his tomorrow. http://www.blackcommentator.com/95/95_guest_shot.html http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/146789.php -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:36:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Looking for Poems on Paintings In-Reply-To: <002601c46129$4d59ca20$220110ac@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But Catherine the dead are so fun!! Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:12 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Looking for Poems on Paintings > > > I have a lot of poems about female artists in my first book (DaDaDa, > Salt, 2003) -- one of those is online at m.a.g.; of the painters, many > of these poems are partially based on collections of their paintings > online & in well known books (mostly of female artists, California > artists, outsider artists). > > It was great fun giving them the book! to -- extra bonus writing about > work of alive people. > > All best, > Catherine Daly > cadaly@pacbell.net > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:10:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Check out The Assassinated Press Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ In Its New Book, "Imperial Hubris", Looney Left Renews Its Claim That Invasion of Iraq Was For Oil: Bolsheviks At The CIA Refuse To Join The Chorus Of Blind Stupidity Calling The Big Iraq Attack "Avaricious" e.g. A Plot To Steal Iraq's Oil, Natural Gas And Rebuild The Infrastructure The U.S. Destroyed Through Embargo And Bombing: Dictionary Meaning Supplied For FOX News Staff: AVARICIOUS means having or showing a strong desire for material possessions e.g. oil. Synonyms include COVETOUS which implies an inordinate desire often for another's possessions; GREEDY stresses lack of restraint and often of discrimination in desire; ACQUISITIVE implies both eagerness to possess and ability to acquire and keep by force e.g. using military power; GRASPING adds to COVETOUS and GREEDY an implication of selfishness and often suggests unfair or ruthless means; Further AVARICIOUS implies, obsessive acquisitiveness especially of money and strongly suggests stinginess.: Without Firing A Shot, French Clear Winners In War For Iraq: 'Waiting For Looney Lefty' Number One Film: Bill Cosby Accepts Awards From White House Murderers, Squandored Moral Authority Decades Ago: By Yaso Adiodi They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:42:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: owl rock dog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed owl rock dog http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/memtrace.mov http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/ haystack series http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/ raptor series Haystack Rock close to falling @ Cooper's Rock state park: Great Horned Owl different series, and memtrace @ Route 7 East I no longer think on my feet. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if i could lift all these words... midnite plus..call me chaim..my ma did..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:32:40 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: point...counterpoint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if ... words drn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:17:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Taylor Subject: Hugh Steinberg on SpiralBridge.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to everyone who submitted their work for the Holiday shot @ SpiralBridge.org, we all hope you're having a great holiday weekend... check out the work of Hugh Steinberg @ http://www.spiralbridge.org/home.asp ~Hugh Steinberg's poems have appeared in (or are forthcoming from) Crowd, VeRt, Volt, Spork, Slope and Fence, among others. He teaches in the graduate writing program at California College of the Arts. "What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible." -Theodore Roethke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.SpiralBridge.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:34:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" There is a particular unpleasantness, when one is raising issues of race, in having one's criticisms dismissed as "paranoia." But I will do Lucas Klein the favor of leaving that to one side. If "Asian"--as opposed to Chinese or Taiwanese or Japanese--only means something "in the diaspora," well, I can't help it if that's where I live. In fact, Lucas's dismissal is one I frequently hear when I raise questions about Asians and Asian Americans in poetic circles. American poetry--and American liberal politics--has for decades been marked by a certain romance with Asian culture, which means that poets in this country are much more likely to have read Asian literature, spent time or lived in an Asian country, and be acquainted with Asian people than their non-poet peers. In most respects this is entirely laudable. But in discussions such as these, knowledge of Asia can be used as a club against Asian Americans, who find their own positions being displaced by lectures on the "true" meaning of Chinese or Japanese culture--cultures of which they are viewed only as attenuated representatives. (Apparently such knowledge can even be used against the Taiwanese themselves: as Andrew's poem asks: "WHY CAN'T THE TAIWANESE / get their Buddhism and Taoism straight".) It is, of course, true that few people born and raised in the People's Republic of China or Taiwan would primarily identify themselves as "Asian." It is also certainly true that there are many people in North America who are perfectly capable of distinguishing between Taiwan and the PRC and Japan and Korea. But it also seems clear to me that Andrew's poem has little interest in making those kinds of distinctions--in wondering what is particular to the politics and culture of Taiwan as opposed to that or, say, Korea or even the Chinese mainland. Andrew's individual observations seem hardly to apply only to Taiwan--the "most cell phones per capita" is also a figure I've heard used about Hong Kong--but when taken together they do correspond to a broader image of Asian culture that has been dominant in the U.S. since at least the mid-1980s: technology- and science-obsessed but also somehow inhuman, sexist, fawning over Western culture and still possessed of exotic/disgusting eating habits. This is an image that has nothing to do with what individual Chinese persons think of themselves; it has to do with American anxieties about what Asian nations represent, and about how those anxieties get displaced onto racial thinking rather than fine points of political economy. I am not sure when "culture shock" became an acceptable cover for racist thinking, but I do think that Rich Newman's posts are an eloquent testimony to how it is possible to struggle conscientiously with such cultural alienation, and in a way that leads to a questioning of one's own position rather than a lashing out at the other. Rich has also done a fine job of suggesting how "culture shock" and racism can be deeply intertwined, however open-minded we struggle to be. And there's a disturbing undercurrent to the "culture shock" defense that I think is crucial not only to Andrew's poem but to the poem's flamboyance: the idea that Andrew's poem gives voice to what "we" all really think upon encountering an Asian culture but are too cowed by political correctness to say. But by putting his poem in the form of what Lucas has rightly called a "rant," and by homing in on precisely those elements most constitutive of anti-Asian stereotypes, Andrew has provided us not an "honest" reaction to Taiwan but one designed maximally to provoke hostility and revulsion. Lucas actually makes my point quite well for me. He compares Andrew's poem to the hypothetical ravings of a French person in the U.S., who might say: "Why do the Americans feed techno-capitalism to their young? Why do Americans hate the air? Why are Americans so fat? And why do I want to study English and work in America and make a lot of money?" The crucial turn here is the emergence in the final sentence of an "I" that acknowledges and questions its own implication in the cultural imperialism it purports to critique and loathe. That "I" is precisely what does *not* appear in the final lines of Andrew's poem: "WHY DO THE TAIWANESE want to pay my student loans WHILE I CORRUPT THEIR YOUTH without shaving" The function of the "I" here is entirely opposed to that of the "I" in Lucas's example. The "I" here is one that, in fact, takes pleasure in its own position of power, a power that seems effortlessly and casually exercised. If there is a critical turn here, it is not directed at the "I," but at the Taiwanese, who are such dupes that they shower generosity upon a person who lords it over them and belittles their culture. Lucas's hypothetical French speaker critiques both the other *and* the self; Andrew's poem is a one-way street. Tim http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:16:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Penton Subject: Oh my g-d, it's back again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unlikely 2.0 would like to wish a very happy Fourth of July to both our = fellow Americans and those ruled by us! On this joyous occasion, we = present a special issue filled with satire of America, by Americans! =20 Also a Brit. He's making fun of us because we own his PM. =20 And, um, there's a Canadian and a German, who aren't really writing = satire at all. Oh, and an Israeli, who is writing satire, by sheer = coincidence. =20 Alright, we aren't very good at the whole "theme" concept. But we've = nonetheless got lots of great material, satirical and otherwise: =20 Eight original pen-and-ink drawings by Nancy Victoria Davis A short film on the US and Saddam by Eric Blumrich Three folk songs by David Rovics Political commentary by Michael Kelly, Ann Keller, Norman A. Rubin and = Greg Cannon Short fiction by B. Z. Niditch, Wayne Scheer, Alan Girling, and Drew = Allen Poetry by John Sweet, Shane Allison, Millie Niss, Dan Schneider, Ulrike = Gerbig, Christine L. Johnson, and Joja and episode seventeen of A Sardine on Vacation We'll be continuing to enhance the store throughout the month. =20 Don't forget guys, the Democratic National Convention is this month, and = if you can go, go naked. -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 04:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy, and everyone: True, saying that you were being paranoid in reacting to Andrew's poem the way you do is overstepping the line. I apologize. Nor do I criticize you from being from the diaspora, for being Asian where Asian means something. But while you are from North America and live in a world where "Asian" is a racialized concept, Andrew's poem is--for better or for worse--from Taiwan, where Taiwan, Asian, and American/Canadian/European are not racialized. As Andrew mentioned, blackness is extremely racialized in Taiwan, but just because Taiwanese women--as women in almost all parts of Asia--buy skin-whitening products does not mean that whiteness comes with a certain cultural value to be placed over the "yellowness" of Taiwanese natives. As has been made clear, when the poem "Why do the Tiawanese" moves from Andrew in Taiwan to Timothy in North America, it's going through a large transition from one complex and confused conglomeration of cultures to another. That's good. The issue here is how to define its racism, or rather, who (which conglomerate of cultures) gets the contextual upper-hand in saying whether the poem's statements are racist. Andrew says it's not, Timothy says it is. In Taiwan, even from the hand of a Candian, it is not; in America, especially in the eyes of an Asian-American, it is. I suppose a part of me wants to find a more objective way of qualifying racism, and that is why I--a white American for the moment living in China, as I have been on and off for ten years--reel against the ease with which you, Timothy, can label the poem as racist. It reminds me of John Yau's dismissal of Pound's Cathay as imperialist--Pound was many things, few of which are today politically acceptable, but imperialist? because he was a translator?--or of Juliana Chang, Walter K. Lew, Tan Lin, and others reacting against the Yasusada poems because of some kind of "orientalism" in the creation of that nuclear poet. I think the writing is worth more than a dismissal as racist. How the poetry--Pound's, Yasusada, "Why do the Tiawanese"--reacts and responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism, that's a more interesting topic, to me. And hey, that's what we've got here, actually. But to dismiss it, to criticize it, because of something read into the poem rather than inherently part of it, well, that goes too far, too. And this is why I'm intrigued and impressed by Rich's comments about how culture shock and cultural stereotypes play into each other. It's something, in all my experiences with other cultures, I never bothered to think about. To be frank I don't _enjoy_ thinking about it, incriminating as it may be to my whole time over here, but I do value the idea as something I'd better think about. And how this plays out in Andrew's poem is, I think, the question to be discussing, rather than simply whether it is or is not racist. As for lectures on the "true" meaning of Chinese culture being used to cudgel against Asian Americans, that's all just crap and I'm sorry if what I said put you in that direction. There is no "true" meaning of any culture--hence these damned debates!--and while you as an Asian American may be an attenuated representative, so are Lee Teng-hui, Coco Li Wen, and Wai-lim Yip. The biggest problem we as North Americans have may be in seeing that all cultures--races, continents, countries--are as complicated and diverse as we are ourselves. We don't have a monopoly on this particular problem, either, by the way. And in terms of complexity or simplicity, Timothy, you and I read the end of Andrew's poem differently. I'm honored you find my cultural translation more complex than Andrew's original, but I don't read the end of his poem with as blanket arrogance as you see in it. And if I did see it the same way, I'm sure you & I might agree on many other points, too. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Yu" To: Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 1:34 AM Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > There is a particular unpleasantness, when one is raising issues of > race, in having one's criticisms dismissed as "paranoia." But I will > do Lucas Klein the favor of leaving that to one side. > > If "Asian"--as opposed to Chinese or Taiwanese or Japanese--only > means something "in the diaspora," well, I can't help it if that's > where I live. In fact, Lucas's dismissal is one I frequently hear > when I raise questions about Asians and Asian Americans in poetic > circles. American poetry--and American liberal politics--has for > decades been marked by a certain romance with Asian culture, which > means that poets in this country are much more likely to have read > Asian literature, spent time or lived in an Asian country, and be > acquainted with Asian people than their non-poet peers. In most > respects this is entirely laudable. But in discussions such as > these, knowledge of Asia can be used as a club against Asian > Americans, who find their own positions being displaced by lectures > on the "true" meaning of Chinese or Japanese culture--cultures of > which they are viewed only as attenuated representatives. > (Apparently such knowledge can even be used against the Taiwanese > themselves: as Andrew's poem asks: "WHY CAN'T THE TAIWANESE / get > their Buddhism and Taoism straight".) > > It is, of course, true that few people born and raised in the > People's Republic of China or Taiwan would primarily identify > themselves as "Asian." It is also certainly true that there are many > people in North America who are perfectly capable of distinguishing > between Taiwan and the PRC and Japan and Korea. But it also seems > clear to me that Andrew's poem has little interest in making those > kinds of distinctions--in wondering what is particular to the > politics and culture of Taiwan as opposed to that or, say, Korea or > even the Chinese mainland. Andrew's individual observations seem > hardly to apply only to Taiwan--the "most cell phones per capita" is > also a figure I've heard used about Hong Kong--but when taken > together they do correspond to a broader image of Asian culture that > has been dominant in the U.S. since at least the mid-1980s: > technology- and science-obsessed but also somehow inhuman, sexist, > fawning over Western culture and still possessed of exotic/disgusting > eating habits. This is an image that has nothing to do with what > individual Chinese persons think of themselves; it has to do with > American anxieties about what Asian nations represent, and about how > those anxieties get displaced onto racial thinking rather than fine > points of political economy. > > I am not sure when "culture shock" became an acceptable cover for > racist thinking, but I do think that Rich Newman's posts are an > eloquent testimony to how it is possible to struggle conscientiously > with such cultural alienation, and in a way that leads to a > questioning of one's own position rather than a lashing out at the > other. Rich has also done a fine job of suggesting how "culture > shock" and racism can be deeply intertwined, however open-minded we > struggle to be. And there's a disturbing undercurrent to the > "culture shock" defense that I think is crucial not only to Andrew's > poem but to the poem's flamboyance: the idea that Andrew's poem gives > voice to what "we" all really think upon encountering an Asian > culture but are too cowed by political correctness to say. But by > putting his poem in the form of what Lucas has rightly called a > "rant," and by homing in on precisely those elements most > constitutive of anti-Asian stereotypes, Andrew has provided us not an > "honest" reaction to Taiwan but one designed maximally to provoke > hostility and revulsion. > > Lucas actually makes my point quite well for me. He compares > Andrew's poem to the hypothetical ravings of a French person in the > U.S., who might say: > > "Why do the Americans feed techno-capitalism to their young? Why do > Americans hate the air? Why are Americans so fat? And why do I want > to study English and work in America and make a lot of money?" > > The crucial turn here is the emergence in the final sentence of an > "I" that acknowledges and questions its own implication in the > cultural imperialism it purports to critique and loathe. That "I" is > precisely what does *not* appear in the final lines of Andrew's poem: > > "WHY DO THE TAIWANESE > want to pay my student loans > WHILE I CORRUPT THEIR YOUTH > without shaving" > > The function of the "I" here is entirely opposed to that of the "I" > in Lucas's example. The "I" here is one that, in fact, takes > pleasure in its own position of power, a power that seems > effortlessly and casually exercised. If there is a critical turn > here, it is not directed at the "I," but at the Taiwanese, who are > such dupes that they shower generosity upon a person who lords it > over them and belittles their culture. Lucas's hypothetical French > speaker critiques both the other *and* the self; Andrew's poem is a > one-way street. > > Tim > http://tympan.blogspot.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 06:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: <00ba01c461a2$dbb401e0$fb01110a@Cipherdog> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some quotes from Lucas' most recent post, not necessarily in the order in which he wrote them: >>The issue here is how to define its racism, or rather, who (which conglomerate of cultures) gets the contextual upper-hand in saying whether the poem's statements are racist. Andrew says it's not, Timothy says it is. In Taiwan, even from the hand of a Candian, it is not; in America, especially in the eyes of an Asian-American, it is.<< The problem here, for me, is with what seems to be the tacit assumption that Andrew, or any of us, can somehow leave our own culture behind when we write about an other, "alien" culture in which we are living. It may be that some of the things Andrew had to say about Taiwan are factually true despite the fact that they also play into US/Western stereotypes of Asian culture and so those facts, in Taiwan, would not be racialized the way they are here in the US/Canada, but that does not mean that Andrew does not carry around in himself that racialization--as all of us cannot help but do, even those of us who are racialized, simply because we grew up in a culture where racialization takes place--and so it seems to be perfectly possible that the poem could be racist in/from both places. It may not be racist in the same way--it occurs to me now as I write this--but that does not mean it is not racist. So, what do I mean by implying that there is a distinction between how this poem might be racist in the US/Canada and how it might be racist in Taiwan? I'm thinking this out as I write, so it will probably be pretty sloppy at some points, but let me try this: Let's assume, for the moment--and it is a big assumption--that what I read as one of Lucas' assumptions is true, i.e., that the Taiwanese themselves would not read Andrew's poem as a racist comment on who they are in the way that Timothy Liu and other Asian-Americans would. This makes sense at first glance--and that's really all I'm giving it for the moment in the service of making my larger point--because the Taiwanese are not racialized in their own country as Asian in the way that Asians are over here. To say, however, that a poem like Andrew's is, therefore, not racist, however, suggests that racism is entirely situational, reducible not to the values we carry around in our heads and their relationship to the larger socio-economic, political and cultural structures that create and perpetuate racism, globally and locally, but rather to whether what one says about a particular group of people is or is not true in context. This seems to be a particularly dangerous way to define racism because it absolves people of responsibility for the ways in which we are implicated in those larger structures. In other words, it does not seem to me necessary for the Taiwanese to be insulted by Andrew's poem for it to be racist; it can be racist simply because it expresses racism. A couple of things occur to me now as I write this: Some years ago, in my capacity as ESL Placement Coordinator at the college where I teach, I met with two students, Black women, one from Trinidad (I think it was) and the other from Haiti. They'd been sent to me by their Freshman English instructor because he believed that errors they had made in their first-day diagnostic essay should have disqualified them from taking a credit-bearing composition class. (He also made a point of saying to me, when he told me about them, that they were, you know, "Spanish speakers," and, you know, "Spanish speakers" have an awfully hard time getting their verb tenses right.) The woman from Trinidad did indeed need to be sent back to a remedial/developmental level of English; the woman from Haiti had made a single, egregious grammatical error in her paper and it was in the use of the "present perfect infinitive." I'm not sure if I have the grammatical terminology write, but the error was in a sentence where she was trying to produce the construction "I was to have been...." Anyway, it was very clear to both women, and to me, that they were dealing with racism on the part of their instructor, and the part of this story that is relevant here is what the Haitian woman said to me before she left my office. She commented that while she knew what racism was intellectually and had been able when she was in Haiti to point it out and critique it and so on, because in Haiti she had been part of the majority culture, she now realized, she had never taken, had never really had to take racism personally, the way she obviously had to take it personally in the situation she was in. Now, I know the instructor in question. He is a lovely man who would never dream of consciously discriminating racially against students, and I have no doubt he would have been profoundly disappointed in himself and apologetic towards the students if he had been made to see what had happened in this situation. (The students asked me not to pursue anything further with him and so I did not.) And I have no doubt if this man had been teaching in Haiti, he would have been a well-meaning instructor who would nonetheless have brought his racism with him. The Haitians might very well have been able to ignore or tolerate his racism because of their position of security as the majority group/culture in their own country, but that would not mean that the instructor I am talking about, the things he said and did, the ways in which he talked to and about his students, would cease to be racist, however subtly and unintentionally. I am of course not comparing Andrew himself to this instructor, but rather the speaker/discourse/rhetoric of Andrew's poem. Another relevant example from where I teach: A Black student--either Haitian or Nigerian, I confess I don't remember which--walked in The Writing Center to sign up for tutoring. She was being helped by an African-American student aid and was not happy with the way the student aid was doing his or her job. (I have forgotten the student aid's gender; this happened a long time ago.) Anyway, the two students began shouting at each other and the non-American student called the African-American student a nigger. It became clear in subsequent discussion with the non-American student that she had no idea that nigger was a term that, in the US, applied to her as well--let me rephrase that, not that she had no idea, but her sense was that if the word were used in reference to her it would be a mislabeling and expression of ignorance on the part of the person who used it. She knew she was not "that kind" of a Black person. She did believe, however, that the term was accurate when used to describe "American Blacks" (her phrase) because they were indeed everything, as a group--though she was willing to admit there might be individual exceptions--that the word nigger was meant to say about them. This is, of course, an enormously complex situation and I know I am leaving aside a lot of issues about race and racism that the situation raises, but the point I want to make is this: The non-American Black woman might have been able to choose not to be insulted by the term nigger, but that would not mean that a person who used to term in reference to her, in whatever country, in whatever context, was not using a word loaded with racial significance and bearing the weight of a racist history. And, in my opinion, the person using the word, for whatever reason--even another Black woman using the word the way it is used in some sectors of the African-American community simply to refer to other Black people--should be willing to be held accountable for that, again something that I find missing in the speaker of Andrew's poem. >>But while you [Timothy Liu] are from North America and live in a world where "Asian" is a racialized concept, Andrew's poem is--for better or for worse--from Taiwan, where Taiwan, Asian, and American/Canadian/European are not racialized. << Based on my experience in Korea, this does not sound right to me. There is a highly developed consciousness of race there, most prominently visible in the taboo against interracial marriages and the socio-cultural, if not legal, second-class status of mixed-race children. It may be true that this racial consciousness is not now accompanied by the degree of institutionalized oppression and discrimination that we associate with the term racism in the States, but that could also be a result of the fact that there is not (not yet) a sizable enough Western immigrant population for Koreans to feel threatened, the way, say, the size of the Asian or Latino immigrant populations threaten dominant "white America." Also--and I will phrase this as a question, because it is something I think I know, but I'm not sure about--wasn't there a time when, in China and Japan particularly, there were in fact some very strong discriminatory practices against white people as white people, and not only because they represented imperial or colonial governments? (I realize that the Chinese and Japanese might not have used the term "white" the way we do, but I think my question makes sense whatever term they used.) >>I suppose a part of me wants to find a more objective way of qualifying racism, and that is why I--a white American for the moment living in China, as I have been on and off for ten years--reel against the ease with which you, Timothy, can label the poem as racist.... How the poetry....reacts and responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism, that's a more interesting topic, to me.<< These two things--calling the poem racist and discussing how the poetry "reacts and responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism"--do not seem to me mutually exclusive. Nor do I think that calling Andrew's poem racist is necessarily to dismiss it out of hand. T. S. Eliot was an anti-Semite; some of his poems are quite clearly anti-Semitic. To acknowledge that is not to dismiss them, but rather to highlight something about them that is worth discussing. The same is true, I think, of Andrew's poem. I think it is racist, on its face--and it's interesting that while I also have called the poem racist, most people who are responding against, or are at least questioning that characterization of the poem, have been responding by name, at least, to Timothy only--but I also think, especially given what Andrew had to say about the poem after he posted it, that it was a failed attempt to deal with a very difficult and complex issue (culture shock/alienation/whatever), and it is worth discussing the racism inherent in the failure and the issue as racism because to do otherwise is both to obscure on some level the very issue Andrew was trying to deal with and to do a disservice to him by failing to recognize--in retrospect, given his later commentary, and given that I know nothing else about him that would make what I am about to say inaccurate--what I think was the courage it took for him to be as honest as he was about his feelings. And I say that at the same time that I am deeply critical of his poem and its failures and despite the fact that I don't agree with much of the analysis he laid out for us in his posts explaining the poem, its context and his intentions. Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:21:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Blackbox open submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Blackbox is currently accepting submissions of web and word art for its summer gallery. Please go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the link to Blackbox. Then follow the submission guidelines posted at the top of the page. Thanks to all who have contributed in the past. You have made this little project of mine a great pleasure. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:04:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Comments: cc: richard.j.newman@verizon.net In-Reply-To: <20040704101940.GZUW29216.out009.verizon.net@Richard> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for both Timothy and Richard's responses. Tim, I don't anything anybody even semi-smart would suggest "culture shock" is any kind of defence for what's said when somebody's gone 'off the hook' in what seems/is a racist and/or zenophobic sounding purge. In the interest of progress, I also don't think it's in anybody's interest to paint Andrew into a permanent quarter. I would compliment him on this situation and others of which I have occasionally read for at least being open to a whole wide range of materials that bear down on his presence. Which I think is a great value and the attraction of working in communities that are impacted by diverse cultural, economic, geographic etc. edges. Navigating - and writing or making art from - these new 'global spaces' is, I think, the central challenge to the time - especially when weighed against all the various ethnocentric, religious, nationalist, empire-ist etc. alternatives currently gunning about the globe. (And much more interesting than say biding youth and a PhD/MFA getting work in an class insular, very upscale academic environment - I suspect.) As I might have suggested before, Andrew, in his immersion, will either keep swimming through this and come up with something fresh and valuable (and free from what's been pointed out) or, advisedly get off the set. At least I'd wish the same redemptive option if I had wandered up - what I sense is, even with insistences to the contrary - Andrew's contemporary version of Kurtzian Conrad's Congo "up the river" state of mind. (Parenthetically, I talk about some of this in Sentinel magazine's interview with me about my teaching and writing experiences at the University of Nigera, Nssuka - which, for those interested, remains online at: http://www.sentinelpoetry.org.uk/magazine0703/with_stephen_vincent.html) Thanks, Stephen V > Some quotes from Lucas' most recent post, not necessarily in the order in > which he wrote them: > >>> The issue here is how to define its racism, or rather, who (which > conglomerate of cultures) gets the contextual upper-hand in saying whether > the poem's statements are racist. Andrew says it's not, Timothy says it is. > In Taiwan, even from the hand of a Candian, it is not; in America, > especially in the eyes of an Asian-American, it is.<< > > The problem here, for me, is with what seems to be the tacit assumption that > Andrew, or any of us, can somehow leave our own culture behind when we write > about an other, "alien" culture in which we are living. It may be that some > of the things Andrew had to say about Taiwan are factually true despite the > fact that they also play into US/Western stereotypes of Asian culture and so > those facts, in Taiwan, would not be racialized the way they are here in the > US/Canada, but that does not mean that Andrew does not carry around in > himself that racialization--as all of us cannot help but do, even those of > us who are racialized, simply because we grew up in a culture where > racialization takes place--and so it seems to be perfectly possible that the > poem could be racist in/from both places. It may not be racist in the same > way--it occurs to me now as I write this--but that does not mean it is not > racist. > > So, what do I mean by implying that there is a distinction between how this > poem might be racist in the US/Canada and how it might be racist in Taiwan? > I'm thinking this out as I write, so it will probably be pretty sloppy at > some points, but let me try this: Let's assume, for the moment--and it is a > big assumption--that what I read as one of Lucas' assumptions is true, i.e., > that the Taiwanese themselves would not read Andrew's poem as a racist > comment on who they are in the way that Timothy Liu and other > Asian-Americans would. This makes sense at first glance--and that's really > all I'm giving it for the moment in the service of making my larger > point--because the Taiwanese are not racialized in their own country as > Asian in the way that Asians are over here. To say, however, that a poem > like Andrew's is, therefore, not racist, however, suggests that racism is > entirely situational, reducible not to the values we carry around in our > heads and their relationship to the larger socio-economic, political and > cultural structures that create and perpetuate racism, globally and locally, > but rather to whether what one says about a particular group of people is or > is not true in context. This seems to be a particularly dangerous way to > define racism because it absolves people of responsibility for the ways in > which we are implicated in those larger structures. In other words, it does > not seem to me necessary for the Taiwanese to be insulted by Andrew's poem > for it to be racist; it can be racist simply because it expresses racism. > > A couple of things occur to me now as I write this: Some years ago, in my > capacity as ESL Placement Coordinator at the college where I teach, I met > with two students, Black women, one from Trinidad (I think it was) and the > other from Haiti. They'd been sent to me by their Freshman English > instructor because he believed that errors they had made in their first-day > diagnostic essay should have disqualified them from taking a credit-bearing > composition class. (He also made a point of saying to me, when he told me > about them, that they were, you know, "Spanish speakers," and, you know, > "Spanish speakers" have an awfully hard time getting their verb tenses > right.) The woman from Trinidad did indeed need to be sent back to a > remedial/developmental level of English; the woman from Haiti had made a > single, egregious grammatical error in her paper and it was in the use of > the "present perfect infinitive." I'm not sure if I have the grammatical > terminology write, but the error was in a sentence where she was trying to > produce the construction "I was to have been...." Anyway, it was very clear > to both women, and to me, that they were dealing with racism on the part of > their instructor, and the part of this story that is relevant here is what > the Haitian woman said to me before she left my office. She commented that > while she knew what racism was intellectually and had been able when she was > in Haiti to point it out and critique it and so on, because in Haiti she had > been part of the majority culture, she now realized, she had never taken, > had never really had to take racism personally, the way she obviously had to > take it personally in the situation she was in. > > Now, I know the instructor in question. He is a lovely man who would never > dream of consciously discriminating racially against students, and I have no > doubt he would have been profoundly disappointed in himself and apologetic > towards the students if he had been made to see what had happened in this > situation. (The students asked me not to pursue anything further with him > and so I did not.) And I have no doubt if this man had been teaching in > Haiti, he would have been a well-meaning instructor who would nonetheless > have brought his racism with him. The Haitians might very well have been > able to ignore or tolerate his racism because of their position of security > as the majority group/culture in their own country, but that would not mean > that the instructor I am talking about, the things he said and did, the ways > in which he talked to and about his students, would cease to be racist, > however subtly and unintentionally. I am of course not comparing Andrew > himself to this instructor, but rather the speaker/discourse/rhetoric of > Andrew's poem. > > Another relevant example from where I teach: A Black student--either Haitian > or Nigerian, I confess I don't remember which--walked in The Writing Center > to sign up for tutoring. She was being helped by an African-American student > aid and was not happy with the way the student aid was doing his or her job. > (I have forgotten the student aid's gender; this happened a long time ago.) > Anyway, the two students began shouting at each other and the non-American > student called the African-American student a nigger. It became clear in > subsequent discussion with the non-American student that she had no idea > that nigger was a term that, in the US, applied to her as well--let me > rephrase that, not that she had no idea, but her sense was that if the word > were used in reference to her it would be a mislabeling and expression of > ignorance on the part of the person who used it. She knew she was not "that > kind" of a Black person. She did believe, however, that the term was > accurate when used to describe "American Blacks" (her phrase) because they > were indeed everything, as a group--though she was willing to admit there > might be individual exceptions--that the word nigger was meant to say about > them. > > This is, of course, an enormously complex situation and I know I am leaving > aside a lot of issues about race and racism that the situation raises, but > the point I want to make is this: The non-American Black woman might have > been able to choose not to be insulted by the term nigger, but that would > not mean that a person who used to term in reference to her, in whatever > country, in whatever context, was not using a word loaded with racial > significance and bearing the weight of a racist history. And, in my opinion, > the person using the word, for whatever reason--even another Black woman > using the word the way it is used in some sectors of the African-American > community simply to refer to other Black people--should be willing to be > held accountable for that, again something that I find missing in the > speaker of Andrew's poem. > >>> But while you [Timothy Liu] are from North America and live in a > world where "Asian" is a racialized concept, Andrew's poem is--for better or > for worse--from Taiwan, where Taiwan, Asian, and American/Canadian/European > are not racialized. << > > Based on my experience in Korea, this does not sound right to me. There is a > highly developed consciousness of race there, most prominently visible in > the taboo against interracial marriages and the socio-cultural, if not > legal, second-class status of mixed-race children. It may be true that this > racial consciousness is not now accompanied by the degree of > institutionalized oppression and discrimination that we associate with the > term racism in the States, but that could also be a result of the fact that > there is not (not yet) a sizable enough Western immigrant population for > Koreans to feel threatened, the way, say, the size of the Asian or Latino > immigrant populations threaten dominant "white America." Also--and I will > phrase this as a question, because it is something I think I know, but I'm > not sure about--wasn't there a time when, in China and Japan particularly, > there were in fact some very strong discriminatory practices against white > people as white people, and not only because they represented imperial or > colonial governments? (I realize that the Chinese and Japanese might not > have used the term "white" the way we do, but I think my question makes > sense whatever term they used.) > > >>> I suppose a part of me wants to find a more objective way of qualifying > racism, and that is why I--a white American for the moment living in China, > as I have been on and off for ten years--reel against the ease with which > you, Timothy, can label the poem as racist.... How the poetry....reacts and > responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism, that's a more interesting > topic, to me.<< > > These two things--calling the poem racist and discussing how the poetry > "reacts and responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism"--do not seem > to me mutually exclusive. Nor do I think that calling Andrew's poem racist > is necessarily to dismiss it out of hand. T. S. Eliot was an anti-Semite; > some of his poems are quite clearly anti-Semitic. To acknowledge that is not > to dismiss them, but rather to highlight something about them that is worth > discussing. The same is true, I think, of Andrew's poem. I think it is > racist, on its face--and it's interesting that while I also have called the > poem racist, most people who are responding against, or are at least > questioning that characterization of the poem, have been responding by name, > at least, to Timothy only--but I also think, especially given what Andrew > had to say about the poem after he posted it, that it was a failed attempt > to deal with a very difficult and complex issue (culture > shock/alienation/whatever), and it is worth discussing the racism inherent > in the failure and the issue as racism because to do otherwise is both to > obscure on some level the very issue Andrew was trying to deal with and to > do a disservice to him by failing to recognize--in retrospect, given his > later commentary, and given that I know nothing else about him that would > make what I am about to say inaccurate--what I think was the courage it took > for him to be as honest as he was about his feelings. And I say that at the > same time that I am deeply critical of his poem and its failures and despite > the fact that I don't agree with much of the analysis he laid out for us in > his posts explaining the poem, its context and his intentions. > > Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:24:52 -0700 Reply-To: Thco2 Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: on the 4th u lie (4th of july) {poem} MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit on the 4th u lie (4th of july) {poem} To all sisters and brothers who can see the farce of july... one love, cesar a. cruz - teolol ------------ on the 4th u lie (4th of july) dedicated to the truthsayer Phil Goldvarg (r.i.p.) warning: the america we currently live in may deem anything that questions itself unpatriotic and deem it as a terrorist threat under the patriot act suggestion: read it loud, scream it on the 4th of july you tell more than just 4 lies passing off reagan as a hero is america suffering stage 3 of alzheimer's or did we forget bloodshed in south central america by u.s. trained contras while nancy told us to 'just say no' and her husband was bringing in more coke with his new best friend noriega now that's no joke on this 4th of july you tell more than just 4 lies claiming you brought democracy to iraq yet all they've seen is body bags as you jack their oil their lives and at home tell us red white & blue lies it must be easy making everyone pledge allegiance from kinder to 12th grade while recruiting killers in preschool with army dot com videogames you getting' desperate and we see it see on this 4th of july we can see through your lies you play patriot games with americans making us believe our vote matters when democrat or republican the rich run the country while the poor die defending it america needs poverty and wants poverty america needs homelessness and wants homelessness america yearns for skid row and needs skid row cuz' without it there wouldn't be people desperate enough to take anything you dish out and not revolt we would be desperate enough to live in slums to eat out of trashcans to work to be a slave to be in debt to visa to be the prostitute of the i.r.s. to accept crumbs to be a second class citizen or even an illegal alien to kill in your name to die in your name to be slave in your name but not in my name see america on this 4th of july we can see through ur' lies and no matter how pretty is the disguise or how high the fireworks rise i pray and build for your demise i say it again i pray and build for your demise and for the truth to rise . . . césar a. cruz- teolol, 2004, on the 4th of ur lies peep more at www.CesarCruz.com/ Mr. Cesar A. Cruz (teolol) website: www.cesarcruz.com/ store: www.teolol.com/ writings: www.brownpride.com/cesar 2425 B Channing Way Suite 311 Berkeley, CA. 94704 ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } Get it on your mobile phone. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:15:29 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Life After Capitalism Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT FYI. Life After Capitalism Conference 2004 NYC August 20-22nd http://www.lifeaftercapitalism.org -- register now !-- The protests around the Republican National Convention taking place in York City later this summer are shaping up to be perhaps the >largest this country has ever seen. As folks from all over the >United States have started booking their flights, organizing their >local communities into busses and vans, and collecting that last bit >of gas money from in between the pillows of their couches - >organizers are quietly discussing the possibility of having over 1 >million people converging in the streets of New York City during the >week of Aug 28th-September 2nd.... > >While these protests will give us the chance to collectively raise >our voices in opposition to the direction that this government is >taking us - many of us realize that the problems that we face run >much deeper then simply the Bush administration, the Democrats, or >this upcoming current election cycle. What we face are institutional >problems, problems which will only be challenged and ultimately >overcome by imaginative and broad based social movements - not >ballot boxes. Life After Capitalism 2004 aims at contributing to >this process by providing a space for activists- in the run up to >the intense mobilization period - to reflect on the importance of >long term vision, strategy, and face to face relationship building. > >This is an invitation, asking activists from around the country to >come into New York City a week prior to the major demonstrations and >participate in what should be an exciting and energizing weekend - a >weekend that seeks to bring together and give voice to the >(non-sectarian) anti-capitalist left in the United States. Below you >will find a list of both speakers as well as topics of discussion >which should hopefully give you an idea of what this conference is >trying to accomplish. > >Check out the website (www.lifeaftercapitalism.org) - which will be >completely re-designed by mid July, complete with full schedule, >links to related sites and resources, cheap places to stay in New >York City etc. > >The site briefly outlines the basic areas of focus within the >conference but more importantly allows you to register online, >something we encourage folks to do as soon as possible due to space >restrictions of approx. 700 participants. We have worked very hard >to keep all costs to a minimum ($15-25 sliding scale) - all >registration fees go directly into making this weekend happen as our >only funding comes through the opening Friday evening event and >conference fees. We also have a number of scholarships available for >people who are interested in attending. These scholarships will be >extended specifically to activist communities who have been >traditionally marginalized from these kinds of gatherings and >debates. For any and all questions/suggestions please contact: > >info@lifeaftercapitalism.org or call (212) 591-0083 > >Confirmed participants (partial list) > >* Elizabeth 'Betita' Martinez >* Robin D.G. Kelley >* Naomi Klein >* Michael Albert >* Vijay Prashad >* Bill Fletcher >* Chris Crass >* Suheir Hammad >* Starhawk >* Cindy Milstein >* Adolf Reid >* Steve Shalom >* Andrej Grubacic > >As well as representatives* from: >* Critical Resistance >* Direct Action to Stop the War >* Colours of Resistance >* Root Cause >* Left Turn >* Estación Libre >* Jews Against the Occupation (JATO) >* National Youth & Student Peace Coalition (NYSPC) >* Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP) >* Institute for Social Ecology >* Peoples Global Action (PGA) >* Domestic Workers United >* Coalition of Immokalee Workers >* Institute for Anarchist Studies (IAS) >* Argentinian Social Movements >* International Forum on Globalization >* TransAfrica > >* For identification purposes only > >In addition to the basic framework of the conference, discussion >will include: > >* Revolution & Reform >* Transforming internalized oppressions >* The role of the State >* Towards a new politics of solidarity (local & international) >* Perma-culture >* Hip-Hop & Capitalism >* Coalition building between communities of color >* History of anti-capitalist networks in the US >* Gift economies >* Life without prisons >* Co-optation of social movements >* Role of Social Forums >* Palestinian solidarity movements in the US >* Zapatismo >* Building multi-racial organizations/networks >* Art & Revolution >* NGO's & Funding within the movement >* Intersections of oppression: organizing to end all domination >* The future of summit protests >* Direct action strategies ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 02:25:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich, Stephen, Timothy, Andrew, and everyone: One of the reasons I'm enjoying this thread is that everyone contributing is convincingly intelligent. I'm having a hard time figuring out what I really believe. Particularly when Rich's and Stephen's comments turn to experiences in Africa or with Africans and Caribbeans, and the interface with Asian culture or Asian-American life, well, it gets complex, don't it? So as for rebuttals, I only have minor tweaks with which to respond to Rich's last post. He wrote, in response to my saying that westerners are not racialized in Taiwan the way that Asians and other races are racialized in North America: > Based on my experience in Korea, this does not sound right to me. There is a highly developed consciousness of race there, most prominently visible in the taboo against interracial marriages and the socio-cultural, if not legal, second-class status of mixed-race children. . . . Also--and I will phrase this as a question, because it is something I think I know, but I'm not sure about--wasn't there a time when, in China and Japan particularly, there were in fact some very strong discriminatory practices against white people as white people, and not only because they represented imperial or colonial governments? I've never heard of such discrimination in China or Japan against white people because they're white. It's possible, but I know nothing about it. In mainland China--and this works differently in Taiwan and Hong Kong, to say nothing of Korea or Japan or East Asian countries, mostly due to economics--the emphasis is on foreignness. While foreigners used to be imperialists, now we're almost viewed as capitalist knights bringing money to the country. This doesn't sit so well with some of us when we're assumed to be rich and profligate, but it means that what's more important is our country than our ethnicity. For a Chinese student to go to America is the highest honor, after that probably Canada, because they believe that they can get to America easily because of proximity, then England, then Australia, then New Zealand. Ireland and South Africa, let alone Jamaica, don't even make it on the radar. After these English-speaking countries are Western European countries such as France and Germany, with the other EU members somewhere behind, and on and on. And the amount of admiration given to people from these countries pretty much fits with how well a student would like to study in these countries. The situation isn't racial, but rather economic--albeit presenting a somewhat skewed economic view when Canada trumps Germany, and so on--and has everything to do with proximity to money instead of proximity to whiteness (for black people it's very different: I met a dormitory housecleaner who didn't like cleaning the room of a black girl at the school because she was afraid it might rub off. She even asked me how the girl knew when she was dirty or clean. But an American black friend of mine was talking to an African black friend of his about being black in China, and she didn't want to hear it: "as black as you are," she said, "you're still American." She meant that Chinese people would always respect him more than an African). And while there is, among conservatives, some kind of a lingering taboo against inter-racial relationships, most of that is because of a prejudice that Western men are loose and care only about sex instead of building a family. When it gets down to marriage, few families would object (especially because the grandchildren could have access to all that western money). And as for those mixed-race children, almost everyone I know from China and Taiwan has said the same thing: they're beautiful, they're smart (an interesting aside: almost the only Jew anyone in China has heard of is Einstein: so in China, Jews are smart). I would hazard a guess that the US military presence in Korea has made treatment of mixed-race children very different from other parts of Asia. Furthermore, just to punctuate the discussion on racism in Asia a little bit more, China has no history of racist violence. While calling someone "nigger" in America conjures up images of black people hanging from trees, it doesn't happen like that in China. The 56 ethnic minorities in China may bring with them any number of stereotypes, and Chinese people don't view this with anywhere near the amount of attention we in the west do. I heard a woman--a minority from Yunnan province in the south, getting an MA in Ethnography from National Minority University in Beijing--say about the Uighurs (Turkish Muslims from Xinjiang province in the northwest) that "among ten Uighurs, nine are thieves". When I said I thought her comment was racist, she said it wasn't racist, it was a figure of speech. And I couldn't get much more out of her than that. Also from Rich's post: > > These two things--calling the poem racist and discussing how the poetry > > "reacts and responds with the ideas and assumptions of racism"--do not seem > > to me mutually exclusive. Nor do I think that calling Andrew's poem racist > > is necessarily to dismiss it out of hand. T. S. Eliot was an anti-Semite; > > some of his poems are quite clearly anti-Semitic. To acknowledge that is not > > to dismiss them, but rather to highlight something about them that is worth > > discussing. The same is true, I think, of Andrew's poem. This is a good point. But it's not exactly what I meant. I don't know how to explain this other than by an anecdote. A few years ago on Martin Luther King day I needed to do some laundry. I joked to a friend of mine, "I think the laundromat will be open today, because they still separate whites from colors". He laughed, but also said it was racist. I don't think it was racist. I think it was a joke that played on racism. To look at how racism/anti-semitism functions in T. S. Eliot's plays (or in our appreciation of Othello or Merchant of Venice, two other prominent examples) is still, in some ways, to criticise their racism. But I guess I'm still reading more irony in Andrew's poem than others--Rich and Timothy (Yu, not Liu, by the way: Timothy Liu is another Chinese-American poet)--are willing to give it. So when I come across lines like WHY DO THE TIAWANESE men all have to be engineers or WHAT DO THE TIAWANESE have against the Humanities I don't see them as racist statements, per se, but rather as statements interacting with the stereotypes of Taiwanese/Asians in the world. Of course this is a debatable point. But what isn't debatable is that this poem contains a lot of sympathy for the Taiwanese, as well. And this has gone unnoticed in our discussions: > WHY DO THE TAIWANESE > pay me so well > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > adore Bon Jovi > WHY DO THE TAIWANESE > hate Koreans > HOW DO THE TAIWANESE > stay so thin on a of diet fried meat and white rice > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > despise homosexuals > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > hate independent women > WHY AREN'T THE TAIWANESE > allowed to hold democratic referendums and be > independent of > the Commies > WHY CAN'T THE TIAWANESE > find the Denmark on map > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > build bomb shelters instead of homes > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > have such corrupt policemen > WHY DO THE TAIWANESE > love simulacra > WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > put the grandchildren on a scooter > WHY ARE THE TIAWANESE > the friendliest people ever You may say that the object of attack--if that's what it is--is still the all-caps TAIWANESE (or TIAWANESE), but the sympathy in these lines is almost always for the people of Taiwan who somehow go unrepresented in that all-caps phrase. The sympathy is for the Koreans, the homosexuals, the independnt women, the under-educated, the victims of corruption, the grandchildren on scooters, the friendliest people ever, who are not allowed, like the Taiwanese unable to hold democratic referendums and be independent of the Commies, to fulfill their own destinies, held down as they are by the larger forces of society. And finally, from Stephen's interview: Arriving and living in Nsukka put me into a wonderful state of shock. At once it was humbling. I quickly realized that there was no way I was going to write authoritatively about the African experience. I was from a country about 200 years old and suddenly in a world with languages and traditions that went back hundreds, if not thousands of years. This is a very touching point, and I think one of the real problems with Andrew's poem, and my own posts, is that we have not built--or else have lost--that humility keeping us from writing authoritatively about the Asian experience. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 4:04 PM Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > Thanks for both Timothy and Richard's responses. Tim, I don't anything > anybody even semi-smart would suggest "culture shock" is any kind of defence > for what's said when somebody's gone 'off the hook' in what seems/is a > racist and/or zenophobic sounding purge. > In the interest of progress, I also don't think it's in anybody's interest > to paint Andrew into a permanent quarter. I would compliment him on this > situation and others of which I have occasionally read for at least being > open to a whole wide range of materials that bear down on his presence. > Which I think is a great value and the attraction of working in communities > that are impacted by diverse cultural, economic, geographic etc. edges. > Navigating - and writing or making art from - these new 'global spaces' is, > I think, the central challenge to the time - especially when weighed against > all the various ethnocentric, religious, nationalist, empire-ist etc. > alternatives currently gunning about the globe. > (And much more interesting than say biding youth and a PhD/MFA getting work > in an class insular, very upscale academic environment - I suspect.) > > As I might have suggested before, Andrew, in his immersion, will either keep > swimming through this and come up with something fresh and valuable (and > free from what's been pointed out) or, advisedly get off the set. At least > I'd wish the same redemptive option if I had wandered up - what I sense is, > even with insistences to the contrary - Andrew's contemporary version of > Kurtzian Conrad's Congo "up the river" state of mind. > > (Parenthetically, I talk about some of this in Sentinel magazine's > interview with me about my teaching and writing experiences at the > University of Nigera, Nssuka - which, for those interested, remains online > at: > > http://www.sentinelpoetry.org.uk/magazine0703/with_stephen_vincent.html) > > Thanks, > > Stephen V > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:46:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Lucas, I appreciate your withdrawing from the charge of paranoia. I think you may have me confused with someone who seeks to use the charge of "racism" to shut down a discussion or to dismiss a piece of writing out of hand. I hope my many lengthy posts over the past few days have demonstrated, at the least, that I do not raise the issue of racism with the "ease" you suggest; my arguments may be strongly worded, but they are arguments, based on my reading of a piece of writing, and not simply name-calling. To reduce my objections to the question of whether Andrew's poem is or isn't racist is really to misunderstand what racism is. Take, for example, your dismay at the claim that Pound's _Cathay_ is "imperialist." Pound was writing at the beginning of the 20th century as an Anglo-American author at a moment when the British Empire was very much alive in Asia, when the United States was beginning its ascendance as a world power through actions such as its colonization of the Philippines, and when a weakened China found itself largely under the economic and military sway of Western powers. If "imperialism" means anything at all, then *of course* _Cathay_ is an imperialist text, in the sense that it emerges from this relation of cultural power. Such a statement is in no way incompatible with the belief (which I share) that _Cathay_ is an indisputably great work of poetry in English, or with Pound's own sense of respect for and sensitivity to Chinese culture. Edward Said, after all, discovers "Orientalism" not in the most lowly and bigoted works of the West, but in its most brilliant and meticulous scholarship and in the works of writers like Flaubert. Hugh Kenner had it right when he credited Pound with the "invention" of China: Pound's _Cathay_ *created* the China that he, and the West, needed at a particular historical moment; and that creation is by definition a product of a West whose relation to Asia is, at that moment, imperialist. Pound's poetry carries with it an entire set of beliefs about Chinese politics, culture, and sensibility, which are significant less for their correspondence to whatever "actual" Chinese culture might be than for their function in the Euro-American poetic discourse in which Pound himself participated. Now to say these things is not to dismiss Pound's writing or to label it as irredeemably racist or anything of that sort; in fact, it may force us to enter into an even more complex relationship with Pound's work, one that acknowledges our own implication in it as readers. Perhaps I'm not familiar with the remarks by John Yau on Pound to which you refer; but I do know that on at least one occasion Yau has said his only access to a "Chinese" culture or heritage in his artistic development was, in fact, Pound's _Cathay_. By doing so, Yau signals his discomfort with the idea that a Chinese American writer ought to have some kind of natural link with Chinese culture; but he also acknowledges that he, as an American writer, has nowhere else to go for an image of China than Pound, however mediated that image may be--saying (this is from a 1990 interview in _Talisman_) "For me, they were about being Chinese, about some kind of identity; they were something I could get ahold of, or at least had the illusion I could get ahold of." To acknowledge that Pound's work is mediated by and marked by imperialism--by the need to "invent" the China that Pound needed--is not a dismissal, but simply an awareness of historical context and of our own illusions. Again, I think Rich has done a bold and excellent job of laying out some of these issues too, arguing that racism is less a question of situational intent than a question of how an utterance fits into a larger discourse, and suggesting that racism is an unavoidable element of cross-cultural content--to think otherwise, as Rich suggests, is to engage in the illusion that one can simply step outside one's own culture. (Rich also raises the interesting point that most of the responses and defenses of the poem have been addressed directly to me, even though he has, if anything, been more forceful in labeling Andrew's poem as racist. I have certainly encouraged this by responding to individual posters. But it is true that while some have suggested that my responses to Andrew's poem are extreme and dismissive, Rich's arguably more radical positions against the poem have been extensively praised by some of those same people. Why this is I can't exactly say--perhaps Rich is just doing a better job than I am--but I suppose one uncharitable reading would come from Lucas's linking of my arguments to those of John Yau, Walter Lew, Juliana Chang, and Tan Lin [company I'm proud to be in]--all other Asian American writers whose arguments Lucas also rejects as simplistic. I suppose the implication is that a charge of racism by an Asian American is understood to be racially motivated and hence one-dimensional, while Rich's similar arguments can safely be regarded as balanced and nuanced. I say this not in any way as a criticism of Rich, but as a way of trying to answer a question he raised.) Lucas, I must also take issue with your claim that my objections are based by my "reading into" Andrew's poem something that isn't "inherently part of it." If you have, as you say, read your Barthes and Fish, you ought to know that there can be no bright line drawn between what is "read into" and what is "just there." I think this division is a product of the misguided idea that political and racial issues are somehow "outside" the text--distractions from what the text is really saying. But of course the whole point here is that Andrew has very consciously and aggressively brought such issues *into* his text. You claim that Andrew says his poem is not racist, but that is a little too clear-cut; he in fact acknowledges that his poem's "intractable ugliness" *could* be read as racism, but that it wouldn't be by someone in Andrew's position--that of a North American who has lived in Asia. (Well, given your and Rich's reactions--and that I am also a North American who has lived in Asia--I'd say the evidence is about two-thirds against.) I would argue that Andrew in fact *uses* this perception of racism--that his poem would have no power if it did not lean on the charge that its potentially racist observations have. In what sense is Andrew's poem "from Taiwan"? It may be physically written there, but I hardly see how it emerges from or participates in some kind of "Taiwanese" discourse that is so radically different from a North American one that its utterances could not be regarded as racist. It's written in English in the voice of a Western visitor, using all of these assumptions that such a visitor would have, and it clearly seems addressed to an audience that is also observing the Taiwanese and not one of them. Rich has already done a fine job of demolishing the idea that the poem is "not racist" in Taiwan, but I would go so far as to say that question is irrelevant: the poem is not playing in Taiwan at all. Finally, perhaps I was too subtle in remarking, ironically, that Asian Americans are seen merely as attenuated representatives of Asian culture; what I meant to say was that to see them as *any* kind of representatives of Asian culture is misguided. We would not regard a white American of German or Irish descent as an attenuated representative of Germany or Ireland; yet people of Asian descent in the U.S. are seen as somehow elementally tied to their ancestral cultures. Hence we lose on both counts: attenuated Asians, not-quite Americans. This is why, frankly, many Asian Americans are so vigilant in critiquing perceptions of Asians by Americans; we know that these perceptions affect us very directly. Tim http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:48:21 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit at brighton July 4th holiday parking rules are in effect you don't have to feed the meter .... they pledged their lives fortunes sacred honor .... Washingto in NY had 21 servants 7 were slaves .... if you ask me Johnnie Franco's pitch was low but i'm not the ump.... 3:00...nite sun..o carl rakosi..such wild restraint....drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: on the 4th u lie (4th of july) {poem} Comments: To: THCO2@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not a very good poem tho it states some truths but what is that absurdity of praying for america 's demise we're in alot of deep shit for sure always have been since the damn whitey's wiped out the human beings but hey where do you live and what do ya mean by demise sucker? dem eyes ...where ya gonna go or are ya already there? you mean, i hope , if it's at all possible that you pray for change in a positive way the hopefully eventual demise of the negative prts of a system that has many good attributes the transition from an oligarchy to a true democracy ah what the hell i could go on and on the fireworks were fine tho they represent nothing your fireworks too represent nothing are you advocating overthrow or just blow the whole damn place up and we'll all go live in france or africa or israel of irag or what and the rest of you smarty pants' enought w/the andrew/tiawanese bullshit already on and on for what to get to the root of what? you don't have to be there to know there it's all here in the rotten apple everything you want except the consumption of dogs cats and horses tho i'm sure even that's being done in some secret corner and there's certainly plenty of folk that eat cat food and dog food even if we know WE really can't fix it we can all do our part by throwing the trash in the trash can and recycling and giving a bit of reality to each other instead of all this MEEEEEEEMEEEEEEMMMMMEEEE me included of course ...... stop feeding andrew he loves it stop inciting negativity about the place that gives you heat in winter and remember i know too how f"d up this country is but here's where my little shoe is so here's where i is for the present... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:52:02 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Joseph Lease email (HELP!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Looking for updated Joseph Lease email address rather urgently ...please backchannel with info! Best, Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:35:11 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Fw: errata Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ..... add an (n) to washing ton moore isaq moore steve is steve super drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:22:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy: I don't have the full texts of the articles where either Yau calls Pound's _Cathay_ an act of imperialism or where Chang and Lew and co. go off on Yasusada's implicit racism. I do, fortunately, have citations and brief quotations where I brought each one to bear in a paper on Rexroth's Love Poems of Marichiko, but it doesn't reveal all that much. John Yau, "Neither Us Nor Them", American Poetry Review; Mar/Apr, Vol. 23, Issue 2, 1994: "Pound's aesthetics are based on the idea that anything and anyone can be appropriated, and, in this regard, he is very much a man of his times. For at the beginning of the twentieth century, imperialism and colonialism were still going strong." Juliana Chang, Walter K. Lew, Tan Lin, Eileen Tabios, and John Yau, "Displacements," Boston Review, Summer 1997, http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.3/Chang.html: "act of yellowface at once plays into an existing and apparently vigorous orientalist fantasy" But if this is all that Yau wrote about _Cathay_, I wouldn't find it anywhere near as odorous or onerous as I do. Essentially, Yau states somewhere in his article, that Pound viewed China as a bunch of losers, and all of his writings about China and the Chinese demonstrated this attitude. It's an out-of-nowhere damnation of one of Pound's best books, and in my mind not only is "imperialism" irrelevant, it's also misplaced: if not for Pound's "invention" of China (the phrase is from T. S. Eliot before Hugh Kenner, by the way, but it's still true), how would we have gotten to Yau's own poem "A Suite of Imitations Written After Reading Translations of Poems by Li He and Li Shang-yin", let alone to paintings based on Chinese calligraphy by Brice Marden or Franz Kline, both of whom Yau has lauded in critical writing? Certainly anyone is able to change his mind, and this seems to be what Yau has done in moving from claiming, in 1990, that Pound's versions were his in to Chinese culture, to his '94 write-off of the book because it portrays Chinese people in what he imagines to be a negative light. And just to be clear, I think that at least in the article I read, Yau does, as you say, "use the charge of 'racism' to shut down a discussion or to dismiss a piece of writing out of hand", and is "incompatible with the belief (which I share) that _Cathay_ is an indisputably great work of poetry in English, or with Pound's own sense of respect for and sensitivity to Chinese culture." You're right, though, that just because his name is Yau shouldn't make him more likely to be a representative of Chinese culture (though it might mean he should play basketball: if I remember correctly, his family is from Shanghai--maybe he's related to Yao Ming). He doesn't have to prove himself another Arthur Sze, who publishes Chinese translations. But if he wants to step away from Chinese culture, perhaps he's betraying himself in his authoritative tone of condemnation towards Pound's translations or--in the review from which I'm quoting--the morals of the editor of the anthology in question. Which is not to say that you, Timothy, are putting this suit on for yourself. And hell, maybe we're putting it on for you. After all, this is the idea behind us saying "Timothy charges Andrew's poem with racism" rather than "Timothy and Rich charge Andrew's poem with racism". Usually--though obviously not always--those most sensitive to racism are those in position to feel it directly. Where this puts the illusion that you can step outside of your own culture, I'm not sure. At any rate, I won't buy that it necessarily means Rich's comments are balanced while yours (Timothy's) are one-dimensional, which is obviously not true. Really, I've rarely had such a nuanced discussion leading from the simple question of whether someone is or isn't, or should or shouldn't be, offended by a piece of writing. Still, the complexity of racial identity is one-upped only by the complexity of where this poem comes from. You're right that it's not "from Taiwan" the way that Bai Xianyong's Taibei ren (kind of Taiwan's version of Joyce's "Dubliners") is, or Hou Xiaoxian's film Millenium Mambo, or even Alvin Lu's "The Hell Screens" (written in English by an LA writer), but it is from Taiwan in the sense that the "Taiwanese" in the poem are not defined--as I read it--racially but rather culturally. Or maybe it's just as simple as I don't think it's racist to refer to Taiwanese as dog-eating when a lot of Taiwanese people eat dogs (and so do mainlanders and Koreans and I think Japanese). As long as somewhere along the line we're able to acknowledge that Taiwanese are not _only_ dog-eaters, and that eating dog meat is something we as North Americans can choose to accept or reject, then what's wrong with saying out-loud that Taiwanese people eat dog meat? I suppose there is a difference between saying someone eats dog meat and saying that someone is a dog-eater. But if identification with a specific action is the problem, then look at the verbs in Andrew's poem: the questions are almost all "why DO the Taiwanese", instead of "why ARE the Taiwanese". And if treatment of dogs--in the poem, running over them, rather than eating them--is the bone of contention (no pun intended), then why should we be so bothered with a question that asks "why do" instead of asserts that they all are? Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Yu" To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:46 AM Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE > Lucas, > > I appreciate your withdrawing from the charge of paranoia. > > I think you may have me confused with someone who seeks to use the > charge of "racism" to shut down a discussion or to dismiss a piece of > writing out of hand. I hope my many lengthy posts over the past few > days have demonstrated, at the least, that I do not raise the issue > of racism with the "ease" you suggest; my arguments may be strongly > worded, but they are arguments, based on my reading of a piece of > writing, and not simply name-calling. > > To reduce my objections to the question of whether Andrew's poem is > or isn't racist is really to misunderstand what racism is. Take, for > example, your dismay at the claim that Pound's _Cathay_ is > "imperialist." Pound was writing at the beginning of the 20th > century as an Anglo-American author at a moment when the British > Empire was very much alive in Asia, when the United States was > beginning its ascendance as a world power through actions such as its > colonization of the Philippines, and when a weakened China found > itself largely under the economic and military sway of Western > powers. If "imperialism" means anything at all, then *of course* > _Cathay_ is an imperialist text, in the sense that it emerges from > this relation of cultural power. Such a statement is in no way > incompatible with the belief (which I share) that _Cathay_ is an > indisputably great work of poetry in English, or with Pound's own > sense of respect for and sensitivity to Chinese culture. Edward > Said, after all, discovers "Orientalism" not in the most lowly and > bigoted works of the West, but in its most brilliant and meticulous > scholarship and in the works of writers like Flaubert. Hugh Kenner > had it right when he credited Pound with the "invention" of China: > Pound's _Cathay_ *created* the China that he, and the West, needed at > a particular historical moment; and that creation is by definition a > product of a West whose relation to Asia is, at that moment, > imperialist. Pound's poetry carries with it an entire set of beliefs > about Chinese politics, culture, and sensibility, which are > significant less for their correspondence to whatever "actual" > Chinese culture might be than for their function in the Euro-American > poetic discourse in which Pound himself participated. > > Now to say these things is not to dismiss Pound's writing or to label > it as irredeemably racist or anything of that sort; in fact, it may > force us to enter into an even more complex relationship with Pound's > work, one that acknowledges our own implication in it as readers. > Perhaps I'm not familiar with the remarks by John Yau on Pound to > which you refer; but I do know that on at least one occasion Yau has > said his only access to a "Chinese" culture or heritage in his > artistic development was, in fact, Pound's _Cathay_. By doing so, > Yau signals his discomfort with the idea that a Chinese American > writer ought to have some kind of natural link with Chinese culture; > but he also acknowledges that he, as an American writer, has nowhere > else to go for an image of China than Pound, however mediated that > image may be--saying (this is from a 1990 interview in _Talisman_) > "For me, they were about being Chinese, about some kind of identity; > they were something I could get ahold of, or at least had the > illusion I could get ahold of." To acknowledge that Pound's work is > mediated by and marked by imperialism--by the need to "invent" the > China that Pound needed--is not a dismissal, but simply an awareness > of historical context and of our own illusions. > > Again, I think Rich has done a bold and excellent job of laying out > some of these issues too, arguing that racism is less a question of > situational intent than a question of how an utterance fits into a > larger discourse, and suggesting that racism is an unavoidable > element of cross-cultural content--to think otherwise, as Rich > suggests, is to engage in the illusion that one can simply step > outside one's own culture. > > (Rich also raises the interesting point that most of the responses > and defenses of the poem have been addressed directly to me, even > though he has, if anything, been more forceful in labeling Andrew's > poem as racist. I have certainly encouraged this by responding to > individual posters. But it is true that while some have suggested > that my responses to Andrew's poem are extreme and dismissive, Rich's > arguably more radical positions against the poem have been > extensively praised by some of those same people. Why this is I > can't exactly say--perhaps Rich is just doing a better job than I > am--but I suppose one uncharitable reading would come from Lucas's > linking of my arguments to those of John Yau, Walter Lew, Juliana > Chang, and Tan Lin [company I'm proud to be in]--all other Asian > American writers whose arguments Lucas also rejects as simplistic. I > suppose the implication is that a charge of racism by an Asian > American is understood to be racially motivated and hence > one-dimensional, while Rich's similar arguments can safely be > regarded as balanced and nuanced. I say this not in any way as a > criticism of Rich, but as a way of trying to answer a question he > raised.) > > Lucas, I must also take issue with your claim that my objections are > based by my "reading into" Andrew's poem something that isn't > "inherently part of it." If you have, as you say, read your Barthes > and Fish, you ought to know that there can be no bright line drawn > between what is "read into" and what is "just there." I think this > division is a product of the misguided idea that political and racial > issues are somehow "outside" the text--distractions from what the > text is really saying. But of course the whole point here is that > Andrew has very consciously and aggressively brought such issues > *into* his text. You claim that Andrew says his poem is not racist, > but that is a little too clear-cut; he in fact acknowledges that his > poem's "intractable ugliness" *could* be read as racism, but that it > wouldn't be by someone in Andrew's position--that of a North American > who has lived in Asia. (Well, given your and Rich's reactions--and > that I am also a North American who has lived in Asia--I'd say the > evidence is about two-thirds against.) I would argue that Andrew in > fact *uses* this perception of racism--that his poem would have no > power if it did not lean on the charge that its potentially racist > observations have. > > In what sense is Andrew's poem "from Taiwan"? It may be physically > written there, but I hardly see how it emerges from or participates > in some kind of "Taiwanese" discourse that is so radically different > from a North American one that its utterances could not be regarded > as racist. It's written in English in the voice of a Western > visitor, using all of these assumptions that such a visitor would > have, and it clearly seems addressed to an audience that is also > observing the Taiwanese and not one of them. Rich has already done a > fine job of demolishing the idea that the poem is "not racist" in > Taiwan, but I would go so far as to say that question is irrelevant: > the poem is not playing in Taiwan at all. > > Finally, perhaps I was too subtle in remarking, ironically, that > Asian Americans are seen merely as attenuated representatives of > Asian culture; what I meant to say was that to see them as *any* kind > of representatives of Asian culture is misguided. We would not > regard a white American of German or Irish descent as an attenuated > representative of Germany or Ireland; yet people of Asian descent in > the U.S. are seen as somehow elementally tied to their ancestral > cultures. Hence we lose on both counts: attenuated Asians, not-quite > Americans. This is why, frankly, many Asian Americans are so > vigilant in critiquing perceptions of Asians by Americans; we know > that these perceptions affect us very directly. > > Tim > http://tympan.blogspot.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:07:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: digital memory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed digital memory http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/ there are hungs.mov reduced from hung.mov there are grav.mov reduced from gra.mov there are frag jpgs there are deer jpgs there was deers mov but it's too large there is memtrace.mov digital memory _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Evocation of the lost world: the Berkeley poetry scene at the end of World War I Fahrenheit 9/11: Fair & ultimately balanced Judson Crews: A "New American" poet of the Southwest More poets from Slack Buddha: Geraldine Monk, Michael Basinski & Daniel Bouchard Stephen T. Vessel's ZIP Code Poems - a poetic form for 93109 (Slack Buddha, part II) Some Poets of Slack Buddha Press: on Keith Tuma, Alan Halsey & K. Lorraine Graham Forthcoming Ron Silliman readings & talks (Boston, Seattle, NY, Lawrence, SF, Philly & DC) Questions for Here Comes Everybody: What is the relation between the text & the body? Questions for Here Comes Everybody: How would you explain poetry to a seven year old? http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:02:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: some writings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I present to Readership my stab at a personal web page. currently it consists of one lengthy work, Digital Cellular Phone, adn a few visual scrids. here is the url: http://moreguff.00freehost.com/index/digital/index.htm my two blogs fill a-pace and I offer them to Readerly eyes as well. my writing blog: www.rocketsandsentries.blogspot.com my journal blog: www.tribute-airy.blogspot.com Allen Bramhall ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Fwd: Woodburners We Recommend : Gael Turnbull Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0 >Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:20:27 -0400 >To: Recipient List Suppressed:; >From: "Longhouse, Publishers & Booksellers" >Subject: Woodburners We Recommend : Gael Turnbull >X-DCC-SoVerNet-Metrics: whiteface.sover.net 1174; bulk Body=1 Fuz1=1193 > Fuz2=many >X-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Not scanned: please contact your >Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details >X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information >X-MailScanner-From: poetry@sover.net > >>Subject: sad news >> >>Dear all >> >> I'm very sorry to be passing on to you some sad news - Gael >>Turnbull died on Sunday, he was with his family in Hereford. His >>wife will be returning to Edinburgh tomorrow. Please pass this on >>to anyone you feel should know. >> >> julie > >Alec Finlay >morning star > >G A E L T U R N B U L L ( 1928 - 2004 ) > >This from our good friend Alec Finlay early this morning in Scotland >reporting all our loss of Gael Turnbull, poet, physician, and many >decade at the helm of The Migrant Press. Close friend to all the >Finlay family, many British Isles poets and having one of his >earliest books published from Cid's Origin Press. Gael was often >delightful on his independent streak concerning Cid - roughened >between long-standing affection and plainly fed up. With this recent >loss of Cid, Carl and now Gael one begins to feel we have lost a >coastline. We'd like to share a small booklet of poems we published >of Gael's from Longhouse as tribute and gift. -- Bob Arnold, July 5, >2004 > >Gael Turbull ~ "More Amorous Greetings" ~ from a Longhouse >Publication, Spring 1999 >http://www.longhousepoetry.com/gaelturnbull.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:54:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Subject: xStream #22 online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline xStream -- Issue #22 xStream Issue #22 is online, again in three parts: 1. Regular: Works from 6 poets (Ric Carfagna, Petra Backonja, Nick E. Melville, Bob Brueckl, Sheila Murphy and Scott Holmes) 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #22 texts, the whole autoissue is generated in "real-time", new version in every refresh. 3. Wryting Issue #5: a monthly selection of WRYTING-L listserv works Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://xstream.xpressed.org email: xstream@xpressed.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:09:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Taylor Subject: We Want Your Web Links & Community Calendar Updates!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi everyone, I'm updating the SpiralBridge Links page and it dawned on me like a bowl of cold raviolis, many people/groups out here are amazing contributors to the growing arts community and have great poetry/music/art/community web sites that don’t have a SpiralBridge.org link on it nor do we have a link up for many of your sites on our links page @ http://www.spiralbridge.org/links.asp Please take a look, is your site listed? Want it to swap links? Send your link requests to Submissions@SpiralBridge.org All of this info. is on the bottom of the Links page along with a small savable image made by William Mallory, his link is there in the Music section, for those of us who prefer clickable image links. Also just a quick reminder, check out the calendar of NJ/NYC metro area community poetry events @ http://www.spiralbridge.org/events.asp & please feel free to add your Northern NJ/NYC Metro area poetry listing to the calendar, we want to know what’s going on as we all need to support our burgeoning arts community. Quick note for adding events, please put the title separate from the body on the entry listing and choose a color for the background, it looks hot if you hook it up! Enjoy the heat and have a great summer!!! Stay tuned and smile… -Jesse "What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible." -Theodore Roethke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.SpiralBridge.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:23:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: 360 Degrees Poetic Emcees CD release and performances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 360 Degrees Poetic Emcees www.360pe.com 360PE The EP released June 23, 2004 Peace Yall!! It has been a long road for 360 Degrees Poetic Emcees. We have finally reached a mile stone. We have officially released 360PE The EP as of June 23, 2004! Visit the site www.360pe.com to purchase the CD for $7. You may use paypal or a mail order form and send a check or money order for purchases. For international purchases you can use the international paypal cart or a mail order form. If you have not seen us perform out here is where u can see us(*line-ups subject to change): July 10th Jacks Java Internet Café, New Black Nation Sounds Presents: Degree of the Righteous MC. So far we have performances by 360 Degrees Poetic Emcees(360pe), Endangered Species(http://www.extincthiphop.com) , Taniq(http://crazatic.com) , and Poetic Intelligence(PI Soul), and Linda West. 7:30 pm to 9:30 pm July 14th Ra East Productions Chitown Hip Hop Showcase @ East of the Ryan 914 E. 79th located in the banquet hall. 9:30 pm until ??? July 24th Kuumba Lynx's Arena @ The Uptown Unity Fest “The Arena” will include a performance space for up to 5 performance groups(All Natural, Ang 13,Aminah (urbanized music), Verbal, 360 Degrees Poetic Emcees, and Connect Force), a fourty foot mock mural, two turntabilists(Man O Wax ,Itchie Fingers),an open mic (early though 11-12:30),featured performances from 12:30-2pm, and an MC/freestyle(2-3pm) battle(hosted by Ang 13 and Cap D and possibly PEZ),and a b-girl/boy 3 on 3 battle(3pm-5pm) for 2 age categories 12 and under and 13 + with 1st and 2nd prizes. Website 360° Poetic Emcees, www.360pe.com Featured Artist http://daspokensoul.com/featuredmusic.html Interview http://www.yodemo.com/Interviews/360.htm Featured Artist http://www.raeastproductions.com/wst_page2.html Music http://www.soundclick.com/bands/1/360poeticemcees.htm *Future Interviews/Features One Life Magazine http://www.onelifeinc.org Lyrics Inc. Magazine http://www.allenentertainment.0catch.com 360° Poetic Emcees, www.360pe.com/ 360PE THE EP NOW AVAILABLE $7 VISIT THE SITE FOR DETAILS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:08:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: love and eros (suggested poems?) In-Reply-To: <000501c462b1$e7f8c430$4e423d18@howlingwolf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Folks--For a one-day session in a course on beginning poetry, I'd be interested in having your recommendations for poems about love and/or eros. I want to mix up some old canonical favorites (happy to have your votes on these) with other more playful or perverse or unfamiliar stuff. thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:35:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) Comments: cc: Del Ray Cross In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Steve: To be at once totally self-serving and self-effacing at the same time, poems from Sleeping With Sappho, my translations of some of Ann Carson's translations from her Sappho volume (If Not, Winter) have just gone up at Del Ray Cross' not quite formally announced preview issue of Shampoo 21: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooTwentyone/vincent.html A bouncy ride with eros, I think I can assure. May they arrive in Cambridge as arrows on the Square! Time to stop! Best wishes for your project. Stephen Vincent Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > Hi Folks--For a one-day session in a course on beginning poetry, I'd be > interested in having your recommendations for poems about love and/or > eros. I want to mix up some old canonical favorites (happy to have your > votes on these) with other more playful or perverse or unfamiliar stuff. > > thanks, > steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Goblin Market poem by Rossetti Shelley's I fall I faint I die I faint I fall again or whatever Petrarch's stuff - Alan http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: on the 4th u lie (4th of july) {poem} Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ... that this nightmare called America certainly must die. ... my first memory of the flag in its orgy was Panama 1989 (On Fort Kobe there were more flags than bibles, or sutras or any book of thought) US children were given the cartoon of "Pineapple Face" Noriega & were instructed to laugh now I want to cry at the play I found in the middle of death & never again will I mistake a fire on the horizon for anything but pain it has been imprinted on my thinking now when I see smoke on the nightly news I remember to count the dead on my prayer beads. ... Before I could remember, I was a target the brakes on the train cut that no man's land that ran through the heart of Soviet Germany & the disco bombing echoed throughout my neighborhood & all of this reached an eerie parallel when I stepped into the South End of Albany poet friend Victorio Reyes calls it Low Intensity Warfare as if that were ever possible. ... You want America go ahead keep it I want a soul lifted in a prayer of resistance to this last stage of Babylon. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:41:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beard of Bees Press is pleased to announce the publication of our latest chapbook: "Whither Nonstopping" by Harriet Zinnes. To read this chapbook and learn more about the author, go to: http://www.beardofbees.com/zinnes.html For a complete list of Beard of Bees publications, go to: http://www.beardofbees.com/publications.html _______________________________________________ BoB-announce mailing list BoB-announce@beardofbees.com http://lists.beardofbees.com/mailman/listinfo/bob-announce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:26:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well, of course I'd like to recommend my own book again ;) however, I also proposed (but did not teach) a six week love poetry course: pardon the extension catalog-speak All best, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net http://cadaly.blogspot.com Love Poetry: Reading and Writing Practice Flowers and chocolate are fine, but not extraordinary like love poetry. A love poem can usefully and passionately express feeling and experience, making it new. During this workshop we will read and discuss love poetry from many times and places as well as write and critique our own poetry addressing a beloved, the complex of emotions called love, and topics like marriage and parenthood. By reading, we will discover writing strategies and applications, including ideas for discussion such as poetry as a gift exchange, as communication, and as self-expression. By writing love poetry and workshopping our poems, we solve many of the subject matter and audience problems poetry presents. By the end of the course, you will have written some love poetry, be able to write more love poetry as the occasions arise, and be practiced at selecting and discussing love poetry. Rough Outline: Week 1 What is love poetry? Western Wind Pearl poet John Donne, "His Mistress Going to Bed" Anne Bradstreet Symbols and allegory in love poetry. Love poetry vs. religious poetry: the Bible, the Koran, "Love Song of the Dark Lord", St. John of the Cross, etc. unlike the religious poet, the love poet expects, hopes for a response student poems assignment / suggestion sheet Week 2 Elizabeth Barrett Browning Petrarch and Laura, Dante and Beatrice: stalking and obsession vs. subjects or objects of love poetry. Bernadette Mayer and the "skinny sonnet". The Rosettis and sonnet games. Love poetry as self-expression, as the means to an end, as a game. Rhyme, doggerel, love ballads, songs. Pass out sonnets to be read by different class members: Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Petrarch (in translation, volunteers in Italian), Dante? why "from the portugese" why is the foreign "romantic" she was in Italy Overview: "Sonnet 43" Elizabeth Barrett Browning "Sonnet 43," the penultimate sonnet in Elizabeth Barrett Browning's Sonnets from the Portugese, is perhaps the most famous of sonnets. Barrett Browning originally printed Sonnets from the Portuguese as pieces she had found and translated. They were, however, her own compositions. The couple initially chose the deceptive title for publication because they perceived the poems as so forcefully revealing private emotions. They also had reason to worry that the drama of their courtship would overshadow the sonnets themselves. Once the autobiographical content of the sonnets became known, the author's life did become the most common tool for reading the cycle. While each of the 44 sonnets in the collection maintains a certain autonomy, it is also possible to regard each as part of an intertwined narrative depicting the various phases of a surrender to love. Read autobiographically, the cycle begins tentatively with the speaker's amazement and distrust that, in her sickly middle age, romantic love would appear. When she becomes convinced of the man's love, she worries that, though sincere, it may be only temporary. The cycle's movement suggests a good deal of hesitation - one step back for every two steps forward - as the speaker addresses her uncertainty. Can romantic love fill the void of familial community? Can the suitor make good on his promise to fulfill her needs? There is, nonetheless, an emotional progression, and in the final sonnets the narrator transcends her questions and warnings to her lover. Throughout the cycle, Barrett Browning describes romantic love in language that echoes the passion of religious conversion; "Sonnet 43" uses a particularly rapturous language to describe the love she feels for her lover. After the opening line, the poem details seven ways she loves him and closes with a request for love continued after death. "Sonnet 43" exemplifies the poet's use of religious allusions throughout Sonnets from the Portuguese. John S. Phillipson, writing in the Victorian Newsletter in 1962, notes the echo of St. Paul, Ephesians III 17-19, where Paul prays that "Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God." Philipson suggests that "Sonnet 43" adapts St. Paul's thought into a new context, explaining that the "tone mingles suggestions of divine love with profane, implying a transformation of the latter by or into the former and an ultimate fusion of the two after death." While other critics have not investigated the religious imagery in such detail, they generally acknowledge the importance of reverent language in the poem. In her book Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Virginia Radley states that "Students often find Elizabeth confusing on the subject of God, Love, and Robert Browning. For her, however, no confusion exists: God is Love; and Robert Browning's love brought concrete form to the concept: in a Platonic sense, it gave form to the formless." She concludes that, in Barrett Browning's understanding, the "flame of love is divine in origin; it burns through lovers; its fire distills all lesser metal out; what remains is the pure essence." Barrett Browning composed "Sonnet 43" in the form of a Petrarchan Sonnet. A sonnet is a fourteen line poem in iambic pentameter, the most common types of which are the Petrarchan sonnet and the Shakespearean sonnet. The Petrarchan sonnet consists of two quatrains - sections of four lines - that are usually recognized as forming an octave - an eight line section. The octave is followed by a sestet, or a six line section. The Petrarchan sonnet has a rigid abbaabba rhyme scheme in the octave. The rhyme scheme in the sestet is variable, most commonly cdcdcd but occasionally cdecde or cdcdee. Both types of sonnets present and solve a problem; in the Petrarchan sonnet, the problem or issue is set up in the octave and solved in the sestet. A "turn" - a marked shift in subject or emotion reflected by a change in form - occurs at the ninth line, between the octave and sestet. In anticipation of this, the second quatrain (the second half of the octave) advances the subject matter in some way, rather than merely repeating it in a different form. student poems assignment / suggestion sheet Week 3 Romantic Poetry: What it means, what is it. Modern American Love Poetry I (free verse) Valentines and St. Valentine's Day student poems assignment / suggestion sheet Week 4 Modern American Love Poetry II (love poetry by women, new topics in love poetry) Are love poems gendered? Why? Are there different types of love poetry? Topics or subtopics? Subgenres? student poems assignment / suggestion sheet Week 5 Haiku / occasional verse from "Tales of Genji" Marth Ronk, Genji poems Martine Bellen, Genji poems Poetry as gift / exchange. Occasional verse. Love poetry from the (Chinese) Book of Songs the movie "Shakespeare in Love" Shakespeare's Love Sonnets, Romeo & Juliet, etc. student poems assignment / suggestion sheet Week 6 Sappho Andre Breton and Kurt Schwitters student collections assignment / suggestion sheet An Anna Blume Kurt Schwitters EVE BLOSSOM Oh thou, beloved of my twenty-seven senses, I love thine! Thou thee thee thine, I thine, thou mine, we? That (by the way) is beside the point! Who art thou, uncounted woman, Thou art, art thou? People say, thou werst, Let them say, they don't know what they are talking about. Thou wearest thine hat on thy feet, and wanderest on thine hands, On thine hands thou wanderest Hallo, thy red dress, sawn into white folds, Red I love Eve Blossom, red I love thine, Thou thee thee thine, I thine, thou mine, we? That (by the way) belongs to the cold glow! Eve Blossom, red Eve Blossom what do people say? prize question: Eve Blossom is red, Eve Blossom has wheels what colour are the wheels? Blue is the colour of your yellow hair Red is the whirl of your green wheels, Thou simple maiden in everyday dress, Thou small green animal, I love thine! Thou thee thee thine, I thine, thou mine, we? That (by the way) belongs to the glowing brazier! Eve Blossom,eve, E - V - E, E easy, V victory, E easy, I trickle your name. Your name drops like soft tallow. Do you know it, Eve? Do you already know it? One can also read you from the back And you, you most glorious of all, You are from the back as from the front, E-V-E. Easy victory. Tallow trickles to stroke over my back Eve Blossom, Thou drippy animal, I Love Thine! I love you!!!! A final project would involve three to six new poems and / or a small love poetry anthology booklet with a dedication. hole in lover resulting from eros currently seen as the true subject of love poetry Anne Carson: essay on eros love's forms to poetry's forms: relation? -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:08 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: love and eros (suggested poems?) Hi Folks--For a one-day session in a course on beginning poetry, I'd be interested in having your recommendations for poems about love and/or eros. I want to mix up some old canonical favorites (happy to have your votes on these) with other more playful or perverse or unfamiliar stuff. thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:51:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Organization: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Cambridge reading, July 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saturday, July 10, 8PM Jeet Thayil and Philip Nikolayev Gallery 108 108 Beacon St., Somerville, MA Contact: Mark Lamoureux, Maudite Productions 617.460.0118 JEET THAYIL Jeet Thayil is the author of English (Penguin / Rattapallax, 2004). His poems have appeared in Verse, Stand, Agenda, Fulcrum and London Magazine, among others journals. He was born in Kerala, India, and educated in Hongkong, New York and Bombay. In 1998, he returned to New York, where he received an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College. His two earlier collections of poetry, Gemini and Apocalypso, appeared, respectively, in Bombay and London. PHILIP NIKOLAYEV is the author of Monkey Time (2001 Verse Prize, Verse Press) and co-editor of Fulcrum. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: butter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit margarinalized. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:00:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sometimes leaving beneath the leviathan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed sometimes leaving beneath the leviathan we were talking about how every good book has a religious moment the author realizes he or she is just so small the author gives himself or herself up to a higher power the sublime grasps the hand of the author with great inspiration the author begins to write it is the greatest inspiration in one's life the words flow beautifully upon the page it is as if they are come from above upon the wings of guardians the wings of guardians spread widely like the rough-winged swallow worlds are light illuminations scattered in the midst of feathers floating down to earth as birds wheel and gyre above one can almost see the sky above one can almost see the higher power above the sky the religious moment is the true quiescence of the book languor of the beach, juggernaut of building inexpensively after world wars, furiously devouring the land http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/orb1.jpg http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/orb2.jpg _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:13:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Corina Copp Subject: Brian Strang Comments: To: "subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, If anyone has contact info for Brian Strang, I'd mighty appreciate it! Best and thanks, CC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:14:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Lucas: It's really not for me to defend John Yau's opinions about Pound, especially since I don't know the article to which you refer. But I would suggest that Yau's simultaneously criticizing Pound and showing Pound's influence is really no more surprising than Pound himself calling Whitman "pig-headed" at the same time that he acknowledges him as a "father." Indeed, Yau's ambivalence toward Pound is, I think, characteristic of his ambivalence toward "Chinese" influences throughout his work (and in the work of other American writers/artists): they can be enormously generative and provide us with a tremendously expanded poetic vocabulary, but at the very same time they can be restrictive and even repressive in the cultural images they provide, inevitably marked by the way Chinese influences have made their way into American culture (a process in which imperialism and racism play an unavoidable part). That ambivalence is heightened for a Chinese American writer whose relation to Chinese sources is always going to be read differently than that of a (white) writer like Pound. Again, I want to echo Rich's very good point that "imperialism" and "racism" are not merely situational, deriving from the conscious intentions of doing harm by a particular actor at a particular moment. To say a work is imperialist, or marked by imperialism, is not to say it is just bad and that no good can come of it; it is a statement about the conditions of global and cultural power under which that work is written. I am guessing that you provide the quote from Chang, Lew, Tabios, and Yau as an example of the extremity of their rhetoric--implying that such a charge is (like the charge of "imperialism" against Pound) simply unfair. But I must say that I find their analysis of the Yasusada affair nuanced and entirely apt, precisely because they look beyond the simplistic claim, "Well, if the poems themselves are 'good,' all other questions are moot." Instead, they recognize that such "extrapoetic" issues--authorship, nationality, politics, race--are in fact *precisely* the point of the Yasusada project, since these poems are a conscious attempt by a white American writer to speak in the voice of a Japanese poet (a victim, moreover, of an American horror) and then to disavow his own authorship. The reception of Yasusada, even before the revelation of the "hoax," shows that these issues guided and aided the reading of the text among American writers, and that the poems' author quite consciously played upon American expectations about Japanese writing and subjectivity in order to make his point. Chang, Lew, Tabios, and Yau's final point describes precisely what I think is going on with Andrew's poem and the subsequent discussion: "he wants the taint of scandal without having to take responsibility for the stereotypes he celebrates." In this sense, Yau's remark that Pound is just "a man of his time" is a way of letting Pound off the hook--perhaps, given his own circumstances, he did the best he could. But the flipside is that we, writing today, ought to know better. A poem such as Andrew's *knows* that it is dealing in racist stereotypes, and does so with the intention of disavowing responsibility for such stereotypes when called out on them. Finally, on the "dog-eating" issue. Frank Wu's _Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White_ has an entire chapter devoted to the question, "Do Asians eat dogs?" After running through the possible and more obvious ways to respond to such a query--the "assimilationist" answer ("No, we don't; and if other Asians do we don't approve of it"), the "multiculturalist" answer ("Sure, they do; what's wrong with that?")--before concluding that the real response should be, "What is the point of the question?" In short, one needs to inquire into the motive behind the rhetoric--to expose the fact that pretty much the only function of raising the issue is a way of making Asians the subject of a punchline, to place them outside civilized behavior. (Just about an hour ago I had the TV on and heard a South Asian American doctor character remark offhandedly that a lost dog ought to be disposed of according to "traditional Korean wisdom": in other words, by being eaten.) The image is pretty much never employed innocently. Maybe the best commentary on the stereotype I've ever seen, though, is a prose piece by Filipino American writer R. Zamora Linmark called "They Like You Because You Eat Dog." I've been thinking about it during this whole discussion, in fact, because this prose poem bears some surface resemblances to Andrew's, in particular the anaphoric structure (in Linmark's case, "They like you because..."). Linmark's piece (which can be found in the anthology _Charlie Chan Is Dead_ as well as online at http://eths.sfsu.edu/aas214s2004/Project/timbutler.html) shows how the image of "eating dog" is part and parcel of a whole constellation of images about Asians as abject and subservient--many of which, again, echo some of the same stereotypes Andrew uses. But the poem, to my mind, has that critical edge that Andrew's lacks. To begin with, it situates stereotypes not as a series of rhetorical questions that take their premises for granted ("WHY DO THE TIAWANESE..."), but as the product of the observer's power and expectations ("They like you because..."). It more forcefully foregrounds the relations of power between the objectified, Filipino "you" and the "they" that consume such images; its cultural specificity is such as to resist the generalities in which Andrew's poem indulges; it shows a full register of expression, from pride to parody to self-loathing and resentment; and ultimately its humor and critique touch both sides of the equation: "They like you because--give it a few more years--you'll be just like them. / And when that happens, will they like you more?" Tim http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit after the fireworks stir the ashes of the set sun.... past mdnt....jefferson..adams...washington...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit catullus gather yer rosebuds babe all that erotic verlaine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: on the 4th u lie (4th of july) {poem} MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so as they should've told us in the good ole sixties america love it or........change it but fuck all this crap hate what those control freaks who run this joint want us to be like but not it.. take a look out your window where are ya anyway got a 24 hr bodega in your neighborhood any good places to see jazz or experimental music or poetry or a bad john currin (?) retrospect or a mafia social club good pizza til 1 in the morning 24 hr subways cwentral park crack homelessness 2 hrs from a forest .. i know we're all bein bummed out by all this bad crap we've had to endure from this gov't that gov't all gov'ts for centuries but lenny bruce died for our sins and this land is your land...my land brighton beach and coney island and all the horrible hype but don't blame america just americans lots of 'em angry scared selfrighteous self serving list-serving consumer/crazy fast food junky barhopping ciarette smoking pot smoking beer drinking unable-to-recycle wasteful rock and roll worshipping americans ...ah you get the point i'll keep it you keep it to ourselves we'll treasure it just like bamiyan was treasured til the scum we supported destroyed it there's still some good left tho not that much complain about the bad shit in the melting pot but leave the pot alone already it's part of the earth like africa is just happens to be called america you mean certain americans isn't that what you really mean or is america a metaphor for all our psychotic ills the way tiawanese is? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:59:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: measurements: why do the taiwanese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All: About 50 professors told me during my undergrad and grad days the real = measure of the greatness of a literary work was the influence the work = had on other writers and the measure of how many words of commentary or = criticisms were created about the piece.=20 If I apply that standard to Andrew's work "Why do the Taiwanese," I = conclude the work is a masterpiece. =20 By my estimates, more than 10,000 words of criticism/commentary have = already been posted about the piece, and the poem is less than a month = old. =20 Better yet, the work has inspired critical comparisons that dredged up = great writers from the past to lend credibility to the critical = comments, e.g. Ezra Pound and "Why to the Taiwanese? That was a bit of = a stretch for me, but...why not. " And I'm certain the poet is sitting back in his musty room taking notes = about the reactions to the reactions to the reactions, etc...and = preparing his dissertation. Don't you just love our systems? Andrew,=20 Let's get serious. =20 The poem is clever; it is witty; it is urbane, and yes, it is racist. = More importantly, it is also in need of revision. The rewrite should = make no attempt to purge the piece to please Timothy...it's not your = issue that he finds fault with the racism in the piece. That's his = issue to come to grips with...you have in fact come to grips with your = elements of the racism feelings by having put your feelings into words = in the poem. (racism is an evil thing only when it attempts to subjugate = or insult others; at other times it is merely an emotional outlet of our = normal, human, fears when we recognize we are not the same as those who = surround us.)=20 And in the future, Andrew, do your poems an enormous favor by never = apologizing for them! =20 You wrote what you wrote. Some enjoyed reading the piece; others found = the work personally insulting and demeaning. To both readers you should = say, "thank you for having read my work." =20 Focus your rewrite efforts on pleasing yourself. If the end product = alienates some, so be it. =20 More importantly, do not...repeat, DO NOT, allow the intellectual = diatribe here on the List to move you in any way from writing what is = true to you. Timothy may dislike the work when it is finished, but you = must ask yourself this: "are you writing to impress/please Mr. Yue, or = are you writing to give vent to your true feelings?" The appropriate = answer should be more than self evident to both you and the critics. = And if Timothy fails to understand that even he has racist = feelings...that too is his problem, not yours, and his feelings should = have no bearing upon the content of your work. Let him write his own = poem. =20 Please, let the work speak for itself...if you can't do that, then, I = suggest you trash the work and start on something else, something less = controversial. How about Canadian Maple Syrup as an analgesic for the = headaches caused by reading racist poetry? That should get your heart = to thumping? In any event, Andrew, thank you for having generated so much = enthusiastic commentary. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the piece; in = fact the comments far out weighed the poem's value in its current form. = Get your ass off to rewrite, soon.=20 Alex =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:16:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) In-Reply-To: <20040706.024254.-237043.8.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm not particularly a fan of Jane Hirschfield, but I've always enjoyed this one poem from _The October Palace_: THE GROUNDFALL PEAR It is the one he chooses, yellow, plump, a little bruised on one side from falling. That place he takes first. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:45:12 -0400 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: love and eros (suggested poems?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are a few love poems so good I spent money publishing them-- Shelley Stenhouse PANTS "Adam" Rose M. Smith SHOOTING THE STRAYS "Just Bread" Richard Blevins FOGBOW BRIDGE "Roman[fold]zero," "Dreaming Le reve" actually most of this book Sofia M. Starnes THE COMMERCE OF MOMENTS "The Commerce" section Rodney Koeneke ROUGE STATE "(Come, Stella, & fondle my afro" George Kalamaras BORDERS MY BENT TOWARD "In touching near :a silence want :a wanting still" Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:05:34 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, Tim, I should apologize since I think I am the one who confused you in my posts with Timothy Liu, a mistake that had more to do with something I was reading not connected to this list or this thread and a conversation about this thread that got your two names confused in my head, and I just never read the headers of your posts carefully enough to make sure I got your name right in my own. That said, there are some things in each of the last few posts regarding this thread that I'd like to respond to. I have separated my responses to different people/posts by a line of asterisks: Tim wrote: >>Rich also raises the interesting point that most of the responses and defenses of the poem have been addressed directly to me, even though he has, if anything, been more forceful in labeling Andrew's poem as racist. I suppose the implication is that a charge of racism by an Asian American is understood to be racially motivated and hence one-dimensional, while Rich's similar arguments can safely be regarded as balanced and nuanced. We would not regard a white American of German or Irish descent as an attenuated representative of Germany or Ireland; yet people of Asian descent in the U.S. are seen as somehow elementally tied to their ancestral cultures. Hence we lose on both counts: attenuated Asians, not-quite Americans. This is why, frankly, many Asian Americans are so vigilant in critiquing perceptions of Asians by Americans; we know that these perceptions affect us very directly.<< I want to highlight these two quotes because they raise the very uncomfortable question of the degree to which we perceive racism as being, primarily, and maybe even exclusively, the problem of the people who are the objects of whatever racial hatred we happen to be talking about, in this case Asian-Americans, and not of everybody else who lives in the society where such racism is present. That's a horribly abstract way of asking the question, but I have put it that way because I think the question goes far beyond this particular thread and the fact that Tim is Asian-American and I am not, and because I want as much as possible to avoid any sort of romanticizing or sentimentalizing my own position in this conversation, but I do wonder--and I have been struggling for a half hour now with how to phrase this question so that it is clear, and I am afraid I will fail to be clear no matter what I say--about the degree to which we perceive those people who are not the objects of racial hatred but who nonetheless speak out against it as acting primarily out of a kind of selflessness, in defense, so to speak, of those who are the objects of racial hatred, and so they, the unhated (god, what a horrible construction!) become invisible in a way because they are not seen as having anything truly personal, and therefore selfish, stake in the issue. I do not want to deny that, in this case, Tim's personal stake in speaking out against anti-Asian/Asian-American racism is far more obvious and immediate than mine. He is Asian-American and I am not, but this racism--all racism, of course, but I'm speaking in the context of this thread--has shaped and continues to shape my own life in ways that I did not/do not want/like, according to values that I reject, and that are differently, but I would argue no less deeply personal than the ways in which racism has shaped and, as evidenced by this thread, continues to shape Tim's life as well. Now, it may be that my posts have not made this personal stake as clear as it could be, and I'm not even sure they should have, since that discussion would have taken us deeply into my personal life and far a field from the questions raised by Andrew's poem--and I feel I need to say again that I am not interested in romanticizing or sentimentalizing my position in this thread--but I do want at least to raise the question of whether people have not responded to me because the issues at stake in this thread are understood, implicitly or otherwise, not to be "really" mine. (Which is another way of saying, though from a different angle, what I think Tim means when he says, "I suppose the implication is that a charge of racism by an Asian American is understood to be racially motivated and hence one-dimensional, while Rich's similar arguments can safely be regarded as balanced and nuanced.") ************************************************************************* In one of his recent posts, Lucas wrote: >>This is a good point. But it's not exactly what I meant. I don't know how to explain this other than by an anecdote. A few years ago on Martin Luther King day I needed to do some laundry. I joked to a friend of mine, "I think the laundromat will be open today, because they still separate whites from colors". He laughed, but also said it was racist. I don't think it was racist. I think it was a joke that played on racism.<< If by "racist" we mean a direct attack on someone or some group who is the object of racial hatred, then, no, I don't think the joke is racist per se, though, as Lucas acknowledges, it does "play on" racism. But if racist means participating in racialized discourse from a position of privilege without, since none of us can escape participating in racialized discourse, at the same time acknowledging and taking responsibility for that privilege--and this, it seems to me, is a much more powerful and politically useful way of thinking about racism--then the joke is racist, though that of course does not mean that Lucas is a racist in the first sense of the term that I defined above. The fact that we have available to us a discourse in which "separating whites from colors" can have the dual meaning that makes the joke possible is the result of our living in a racist culture, and there is no way to avoid the fact that the joke perpetuates that discourse even as it, the joke, uses humor to deflate it, the discourse. Which leads me to the next quote I want to bring from Lucas' post: >>To look at how racism/anti-semitism functions in T. S. Eliot's plays (or in our appreciation of Othello or Merchant of Venice, two other prominent examples) is still, in some ways, to criticise their racism. But I guess I'm still reading more irony in Andrew's poem than others--Rich and Timothy (Yu, not Liu, by the way: Timothy Liu is another Chinese-American poet)--are willing to give it.<< That Andrew's poem gestures in the direction of irony, the kind of irony with which Lucas obviously meant his joke, is clear to me. For me, the issue in the poem, the problem with it, is that the irony is not fully realized for all of the reasons that Tim and I have cited in our earlier posts. Another way of saying this, I suppose, is that I am not willing to give Andrew (in terms of his responsibility as a writer, not in terms of whether or not he is a racist) or his speaker the benefit of the doubt here, precisely because the material he has chosen to deal with is so incendiary. From the point of view of the poem, my only point has been that it needs revision, not to purge it of its racism, but to give that racism a context that makes clear the speaker's position in relation to it so that I as a reader can then take a position in relation to it. (And I don't particularly care what that context is; that's something for Andrew to figure out if he chooses to work on the piece.) >> And finally, from Stephen's interview: Arriving and living in Nsukka put me into a wonderful state of shock. At once it was humbling. I quickly realized that there was no way I was going to write authoritatively about the African experience. I was from a country about 200 years old and suddenly in a world with languages and traditions that went back hundreds, if not thousands of years. This is a very touching point, and I think one of the real problems with Andrew's poem, and my own posts, is that we have not built--or else have lost--that humility keeping us from writing authoritatively about the Asian experience.<< True enough, but it doesn't mean we can't write authoritatively about our experience of Asia, or Africa, and I think it's not that Andrew has tried and failed to write authoritatively about the Asian experience, but he has failed to write authoritatively and with humility about his own experience of Asia. *************************************************************************** And these from Lucas' subsequent post: >>Really, I've rarely had such a nuanced discussion leading from the simple question of whether someone is or isn't, or should or shouldn't be, offended by a piece of writing.<< While I agree with Lucas' characterization of this discussion, I am wondering if stating the question this simply does not do a disservice to Tim's original response to Andrew's poem, which was about a great deal more, I thought, than whether or not Tim was personally offended. It seems to me that one could find a piece of writing offensive without calling it into question in the way that Tim did to Andrew's, though I am not saying that Tim was not also personally offended. Here, again, I am just being leery of reducing the issue of racism to one of giving personal offense. >>Or maybe it's just as simple as I don't think it's racist to refer to Taiwanese as dog-eating when a lot of Taiwanese people eat dogs (and so do mainlanders and Koreans and I think Japanese). As long as somewhere along the line we're able to acknowledge that Taiwanese are not _only_ dog-eaters, and that eating dog meat is something we as North Americans can choose to accept or reject, then what's wrong with saying out-loud that Taiwanese people eat dog meat?<< True enough, but where does Andrew's poem acknowledge this? It again comes down, for me, to the problem of the poem's undeveloped irony/speaker's voice/whatever you want to call it, and that comes down to the question of the writer's responsibility for what he or she writes. That "somewhere along the line" is the point at which the writer should take responsibility. I don't think Andrew ever reached that point in his poem. **************************************************************************** From Alexander Saliby's post: >>About 50 professors told me during my undergrad and grad days the real measure of the greatness of a literary work was the influence the work had on other writers and the measure of how many words of commentary or criticisms were created about the piece. If I apply that standard to Andrew's work "Why do the Taiwanese," I conclude the work is a masterpiece.<< Andrew's poem raises very important questions, precisely because it fails and because of the way it fails. That does not make it a great poem, though I recognize that Alexander was probably speaking tongue-in-cheek; but it does make Andrew's attempt to write it courageous and worthy of discussion. The distinction is an important one and it is equally important to be accurate in characterizing what that discussion has been, which I think Alexander is not when he writes: "The rewrite should make no attempt to purge the piece to please Timothy...it's not your issue that he finds fault with the racism in the piece. That's his issue to come to grips with...you have in fact come to grips with your elements of the racism feelings by having put your feelings into words in the poem." Timothy has not, nor have I, ever suggested that Andrew should purge his poem of anything, nor that he should rewrite it to please anyone but himself. It is precisely the unrevised, raw, undigested, undeveloped, pick-your-adjective nature of the poem that Timothy and I have been commenting on, when we have been commenting on the poem itself. And, in fact, each of us has suggested that what Andrew needs to do, if he chooses, is rewrite, and that he needs to rewrite not so much with what we have been saying in mind, but keeping in mind what he himself said in his subsequent posts about himself and his intentions for the poem. Most of the other discussion about racism and so on has arisen in response to people's (including Andrew's, at least initially) attempts either not to face, or to apologize for, or to ameliorate the racism that is in the poem. This distinction is also important because while Alexander may have been trying here to give voice to what Andrew's anxieties might be in trying to rewrite, rather than to characterize what Timothy's responses to the poem have actually been, these sentences, as well as others in Alexander's post, are written in such a way to make it seem that Timothy has actually tried to tell Andrew how he should rewrite his poem and what politically correct line Andrew ought to toe in doing so. That is not fair to Timothy, and I think it does as well a disservice do Andrew's own attempts to talk about his poem, which I thought of not as an apology, but as a fair and reasonable attempt to engage the issues the poem raised and that Andrew made clear he had wanted to raise and discuss through the vehicle of the poem. I didn't agree with all that Andrew had to say in those subsequent posts, and I thought some of it was, frankly, self-serving in defense of the poem, but for a writer to engage discussion of why a poem does or doesn't work, especially when the writer himself acknowledges that the poem is unfinished, raw, undigested, whatever--in other words, while the poem is still a draft--hardly seems to me to be an apology for the work. As well, given that there are real issues of poetics, i.e., how does one deal with racism in a poem? How does one give expression to racist sentiments without writing a poem that is racist in the sense that it contributes to the oppression of others? How does one develop a distancing irony? A fully fleshed out character in a poetic monologue? What is the difference between a rhetorical question and one which positions the questioner and the one being questioned in clear and specific ways? These are only a few of the possible questions that could be raised--and none of them, I will hasten to add, may be relevant to Andrew--but they are all questions that could be raised about Andrew's poem, that Timothy and I have commented on in one way or another, most explicitly in Timothy's recent posting of the link to R. Zamora Linmark's poem. Ah well, my son needs his breakfast, so I guess that's all for now. Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:39:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This indeed has been a stimulating thread but one which throws off far more questions, areas of doubt, than answers. A few matters can be addressed with some specificity though: one is the notion of Pound as the 'inventor' of China. Now, narrowing that down, for the generation and the readership in which Cathay occurred, Chinese poetry in English translation was principally represented by Arthur Waley, not Pound. Interest in faraway places in that age before 747's was high and romanticised and of course too exploitative, so one has a gamut embracing notions of concessions and money-making on the one hand (an extreme example, Mr Bedford, the narrator of H.G.Wells' 'First Men in the Moon', dreams of establishing a 'Bedfordicia' there, as in 'Rhodesia') to the fantasies of Shangri-la or the Theosophists. There aren't any easy answers on the matters generated by Andrew's poem - take some attitudes to an extreme and you will find the notion than any writing by a white person of roughly European descent about non-white cultures is by definition racist, therefore, for instance, J.H.Prynne's interest in Chinese poetry becomes so, which is rather ironical as one gathers that his writing is well-regarded in China. One cannot use labels as a substitute for thought: terms like 'racist' or 'sexist' do apply in some contexts. Let me give an example: I have this on report - the other week we had the annual Gay Pride march and festival here in Leicester. At the finale a speech was given by our incoming Lord Mayor, who is a Sikh, the gist of the speech was that as Leicester is a multi-cultural society gays are to be 'tolerated' (his own word). The result of the speech, I am told, was to leave people 'speechless'. Now if one criticises that gentleman for his attitude is one being racist? No. Btw archaeological digs in the older English towns have frequently discovered remains of both dogs and cats in the poorer quarters that had clearly been eaten by humans in times of want. Thought I'd throw that in. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:27:50 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII many poems in robt duncan bending the bow On 5 Jul 2004, Alan Sondheim wrote: > Goblin Market poem by Rossetti > Shelley's I fall I faint I die I faint I fall again or whatever > Petrarch's stuff > > - Alan > > http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ > http://www.asondheim.org/ > http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:30:23 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII eros/ion by me n' miekal... On 6 Jul 2004, Steve Dalachinksy wrote: > catullus gather yer rosebuds babe all that erotic verlaine > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Tibet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Astounding that someone could say this, with genocide continuing as we speak. >At 10:57 AM -0400 7/6/04, sylvester pollet wrote: >>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 02:25:56 -0400 >>From: Lucas Klein >>Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE >> >> >>Furthermore, just to punctuate the discussion on racism in Asia a little bit >>more, China has no history of racist violence. While calling someone >>"nigger" in America conjures up images of black people hanging from trees, it doesn't happen like that in China. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:08:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Blackboxwja@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, that was a bad day. I've recently returned from London and Paris. Guess I'm still dreaming. I'll be heading off to San Francisco in a few weeks. Let's hope things improve in spite . . . . Anyway, the guidelines have been fixed. Thanks to those who did an end run and found me. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:17:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: re love and eros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrienne Rich's wonderful erotic sonnet sequence "Twenty-one Love Poems" - a chapbook first published 1976, contained in a later collection, but don't recall which. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:21:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: love and eros (suggested poems?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In English, Wyatt (They flee from me) - Donne - the Shakespeare of the Sonnets (particularly as it's not clear who they were addressed to or whether he meant a single word of it all) - some Dryden translations or imitations of antique Romans like Horace. A wonderfully forlorn piece by Ben Jonson (On his picture going abroad), Hardy's laments from Poems of 1912-13 and the dying Keats' sad piece to Fanny Brawne (Bright star, would I were) and of course Marlowe's sexy versions of Ovid. Curious that in considering poetry in English one doesn't come up with many women writers which is an interesting side-angle on sexual stereotypes, women DON'T write about love all that much, there are Elizabeth Barret Browning's dreadful pieces (how do I love thee - let me count the ways) but they should have a verbal health warning on them. Emily Dickinson of course does have some interesting poems implying a (non-existent) lover. Lots in non-English - two suggestions - Michelangelo and Tsvetsaya. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Shoemaker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 2:08 AM Subject: love and eros (suggested poems?) Hi Folks--For a one-day session in a course on beginning poetry, I'd be interested in having your recommendations for poems about love and/or eros. I want to mix up some old canonical favorites (happy to have your votes on these) with other more playful or perverse or unfamiliar stuff. thanks, steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:32:42 -0400 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: new reading series (nyc) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JORDAN DAVIS (Million Poems Journal) AMY KING (Antidotes for an Alibi) GEOFFREY CRUICKSHANK-HAGENBUCKLE (Fence, Verse, Purple) Announcing: POETS WHO DON'T KNOW IT: a new reading series for poets who don't already know each other! Jordan Davis (Million Poems Journal), Amy King (Antidotes For An Alibi), Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle (Fence, Boston Review, Purple). Thurs. July 8 at 8 PM (sharp) at Clovis Press, on the corner of Bedford Ave. at North 4th St., Williamsburg,Brooklyn. (718 302 3751) 3 blocks straight south from the Bedford stop on the L. Free. Complimentary wine will be served. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:51:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: re love and eros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gothe's erotic poems. Gerald > Adrienne Rich's wonderful erotic sonnet sequence "Twenty-one Love Poems" - a > chapbook first published 1976, contained in a later collection, but don't > recall which. > Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:03:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: re love and eros In-Reply-To: <000c01c46371$0bdb6b40$b37aa918@rochester.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for all the great suggestions so far! And feel free to keep 'em coming. I have until Tuesday to gather my, um, rosebuds... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:22:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: re love and eros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit li-young lee although often more complicated than simple eros/romantic considerations ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Shoemaker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:03 PM Subject: Re: re love and eros > Thanks for all the great suggestions so far! And feel free to keep 'em > coming. I have until Tuesday to gather my, um, rosebuds... > > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:47:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: why do the americans?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The MAIN reason I can't read The whole "Why do the Taiwanese" arguement anymore is because it sounds to me like a glorified academic way to deal with the subject of racism. People are arguing with, criticizing, or lauding NOT the poem, but racism in general. Or, they are tryign to prove that racism is genuine, prevalent, and i would argue...natural. (see below). Or is it just a coincidence that we are so interested in this poem, although we all agree it's not extremely well-written? Does it have nothing to do with fear and anger, translated into literary criticism? How can I call racism "natural"? I feel it is natural within the context of our culture. It doesn't take any effort to be racist. I don't care what people say: you don't have to be raised by "racists" ( particularly racist people, people who use derrogatory words) to be racist. Even if you went to a liberal arts university and read all types of multicultural things, you have friends in a rainbow of colors, you joined Anti-Racist Club -- well, you would still have stereotypes somewheer deep down in you. As long as you have them, people will pop up to fill them. And some of them do seem to be treu, as far as patterns. When I say patterns, you can say "More Taiwanese Probably Do ___ Than Americans." Sociology has proved that one is able to do this. I'm sorry, but many of the poor African-American (black? etc) men downtown DO think I am source of money downtown, and many of them treat me as such each day (more so than other African-Americans). They, more than any other group, seem to think it is appropriate to comment on my sex appeal, often doing so in a method that suggests they are trying to upset or frighten me. I struggle with stereotypes and racism. I want to be less racist, use less harmful stereotypes, have more multicultural friends, learn more about different people, be extremely open minded, etc, etc, etc. And yet I am only a person. I want to realize that just because more non-whites are _____ doesn't mean this is an essential characteristic of the people. I do believe that everyone's a little racist: perhaps at some time it was helpful for us to do so. We needed to take care of our own people at home rather than foreginers: it helped us preserve the species our the group by avoiding and even fearing others, "strangers." Now all these races are here. Now "home" isn't all thats important. Now it's time to change. Perhaps our "critics" should post a poem to the effect of that they think should be written to express "culture shock" or parody racism. Or we could have a series, poems that skate around racism, or racist poems. It could be a project; write a racist poem and post it. Everyone can? Of course I am kind of joking. Or am I?? We know these racist stereotypes are in all of us, and all of us could write them. We know about them, in any case. I could even write stereotypical poems about my own race that would be just as untrue as the racist ones I could write. "WHY DO THE WHITE PEOPLE make fun of African-American names?" or "WHY DO WE?" of course, my "WE" would be as elusive and ridiculous as the group "AFRICAN AMERICANS" or "BLACK PEOPLE" or "TAIWANESE". There is no white WE I am a part of! If I ever, ever relied on that particular "WE" for anything, I would be shit out of luck! Michelle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:48:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Sunshine, Poetry is everywhere. =20 And noplace is it beautifuller than at the brand new=20 21st issue of SHAMPOO... www.ShampooPoetry.com ...where you'll find superlicious ditties by Mark Young & Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Stephen Vincent, John Tyson, Mike Topp, Brandon Shimoda, Ken Rumble, Kit Robinson, Travis Purser, Laurie Price, Christian Peet, Erica Olsen,=20 Katey Nicosia, John Mulrooney, Murray Moulding,=20 Camille Martin, Andrew Lundwall, Richard Lopez,=20 Beth Lifson, Jon Leon, Sasha Laczkowski, Miriam N. Kotzin, Rodney Koeneke, Amy King, David Huntsperger,=20 Yuri Hospodar, Jonathan Hayes, Anthony Hawley,=20 David Hadbawnik, Carolyn Gregory, Nicole Gervace,=20 Daniel Gallik, Andrew French, Thomas Fink, Michael Farrell, Anna Eyre, MTC Cronin, Bruce Covey, Kevin Connelly,=20 Kate Colby, Anne Boyer, and Shane Allison; plus lathery=20 ShampooArt by Catherine Daly and Katey Nicosia. Thank you for getting so clean in the shower. Yay Poetry, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com (if you'd rather not get these little updates, just let me know) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: PINK STEAM art show/reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >--PINK STEAM-- > (Artists respond to Kevin Killian and Dodie Bellamy) > > >July 1- August 17th > >Eureka Valley/ Harvey Milk Memorial Branch Library >3555 16th St. (near Market) > >Opening reception and Reading (by Kevin and Dodie) >July 13th at 6:30pm (reading at 7 sharp) > >Dodie Bellamy and Kevin Killian have been quietly contributing to >the cutting edge of contemporary literature with their ever playful >cross-genres: horror tales, essays, letters, academic novels, plays, >poetry. Like (pink) steam, they defy concrete definition, always >slipping between categories and form carrying, inter alia, the hefty >content of candid sexuality and all-out gutsy expository brain, >heart, and (cyber)sex issues/hemorrhaging/functioning/writing. They >elegantly juggle conglomerate monsters of pop-culture, class >mentalities, the art world and mishmash it onto the plane of the >written page. >PINK STEAM is a colorful group show of photography, painting, video >and sculpture/ installation all directly or indirectly related to >the writings of Kevin and Dodie. Curated (with ample amounts of >help from K&D) by Colter Jacobsen. > >We are in search of the scent of new florescent pinks. > > >Participants include: > >Raymond Pettibon, GB Jones, Nayland Blake, Will Yackulic, Phoebe >Gloeckner, Donal Mosher, Jo Jackson, Anne Collier, Scott Hewicker, >Cliff Hengst, Amy Rathbone, David Larsen, Sheree Rose, Robert >Gutierrez, Meredith Taluson, Colter Jacobsen, Caitlen >Mitchell-Dayton, Amanda Eicher, Simon Evans, Danny Nicoletta, Eden >Crawford, Allison Olly, Nathan Burazer, Rankin and Kylie Minogue > >Short description of a selection of the works: > >Phoebe Gloeckner, 1997 drawing from DIARY OF A TEENAGE GIRL, pencil > >Raymond Pettibon, one of six drawings with text from Dodie Bellamy's >REAL. Noteworthy because Pettibon has never illustrated anyone's >work before. > >Will Yackulic, watercolor drawing of a can of TAB. > >GB Jones, "Subversive Literature #4: Two sixteen-year-old girls >reading books seized at Canadian customs," 1995. (Among the books >are one by Dodie and one by KK.) > >Sheree Rose, 1989 portrait of Kevin and Dodie in autograph store, >Hollywood Boulevard > >Nayland Blake, 1993 multiple, Kevin and Dodie posed in child's >nursery with crib. > > >A portrait of Kevin and Dodie by Daniel Nicoletta (silverprint). > >Jo Jackson, "Moral Sweetness," A new tripped out video with Jo's >bright and mesmerizing iconography. > >Anne Collier, Aura portrait phototgraphs of Kevin and Dodie. As >seen in the portraits show "Likeness," at CCA > >Caitlin Mitchell-Dayton, Portrait of Scott Hewicker in drag for >Kevin's play, "Wet Paint," acrylic painting. This piece was shown >in the first Bay Area Now show at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts. > >Colter Jacobsen, "Dark Passage," color grids chronicling every color >mentioned in Kevin's book "The Argento Series," and Dodie's new book >"Pink Steam." > >Donal Mosher/ Simon Evans- The writing of Mr. Mosher in >collaboration with images from Simon Evan's sketchbook. Rumors of >ghosts and colonialism. > > > > > > > >MSN 9 Dial-up Internet >Access helps fight spam and pop-ups =96 now 2 months FREE! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians (twelve) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sennacherib soar / furnished fool tries / attains know stain retinue seasons / assaulted appoints proclaim also / lowly dreaded / grave lying in folds laid waste summoned creature / cover also / forced penetrable did reward wolf / fold porphyra gold stars / sea withered / strewn chilled / waxed / heaved spume supposing either / watchful draw back misfortune shining loathsomeness coils unfamiliar alarmed / extended winding coiling / cutting defeat now / lifted up fettered state entangled state wrath neck vomit / in season subside see sink cease / stop cut away with considerable force thinking / also stunned congratulate go pensive bowing answered simple telling spend desolate recent feed / refresh take thought apart prayers polished dispersed accustomed to notice sound faint always free from care wasted senses misleading / "lifelike?" too weak imagination complained unaccustomed / suspect unseemly indignation test pity / dismay instead of forcibly cease foiled / returned useless deadly soon after rarefied misleading rest grows / mingled blinded with difficulty the sun / revealed humbler affliction indignation / cunning plot in appearance fierce variously colored armed likeness because of Babylon unruly diversion pranced cruel also / violent lower recoil inanimate object requites looks "thought predates violence, is their claim..." strength / mightily complaining death scurry helpless grieves / slaves heir gracious foes carried away afflicted by violence no continue spume breeze did / courtesy imprisoned heave / raise mislead the North Wind whether hazard diversely determined which one / (of two) reward sorcery before / unknowingly regret destruction countenance quite planted / persons well-being called gloom unconscious demeanor spoils / business lecher undeserved sudden changes pierced / moved treatment touchstone separated diverted press / crowd desolate wilderness / slow shade power condition overflowing affliction / parentage overtake / always deathlike request / door huddled with difficulty recent / insistently acquisition consider fastening ground lot / fallen revealed wandering / tricks attending humility natural / desert discredit may cease make amends soaked befell lowered pagan also / thrust violently take recompense cleansed deceived / reward recovered skillfully pierced / destroy avenge misjudgment deaf Nature example forsaken misjudging adorned / rank with difficulty wretched / lepers outdid the sun's attempt chariot / sky carried away with pleasure horrid / surpass govern / anything with pleasure throne / lowliness political cunning gracious / submission make ready verify / arrange formerly thickest stranger / favor rush abroad climb up glittering chariot withdraw / chariot feeble / living starve at all / walk just after wasting away counted / money acquire plenty _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:35:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: the literary mist / raw rain letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed raw rain below hands' shade splendid drop life underfoot — water years turning bare marvels mirror overwhelms grave rain, with us, is called paper "raw rain / below..." _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:12:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Saturday, July 10 reading in NY: Baus, Gordon & Veglahn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed WEST END READING SERIES Saturday, July 10 at 7pm the Lost Dog Lounge 106-112 South Cayuga Street Ithaca, New York 14850 http://www.lostdogcafe.net/location/ ERIC BAUS, NOAH ELI GORDON, AND SARA VEGLAHN will read from their work. This reading is FREE AND OPEN TO ALL. All three poets live in Northampton, MA. Eric Baus' poems have appeared in Hambone, Verse, First Intensity, Untitled: A Magazine of Prose Poetry, and other journals. His book, The To Sound, was selected by Forrest Gander for the 2002 Verse Press Prize. A chapbook Something Else The Music Was is forthcoming from Braincase Press. Noah Eli Gordon is the author of The Frequencies (Tougher Disguises, 2003) and The Area of Sound Called the Subtone (forthcoming from Ahsahta Press). Sara Veglahn is the author of the chapbooks Another Random Heart (Margin to Margin, 2002) and Falling Forward (Braincase, 2003), and her work has appeared or is forthcoming from 26, 580 Split, Art New England, Fence, and elsewhere. The West End Reading Series is made possible in part by public funds from the Community Arts Partnership / NYS Council on the Arts Decentralization program and the support of the Constance Saltonstall Foundation for the Arts. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:20:02 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Fwd: Kuan Yin book Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my colleague, kathy Phillips, has a book of poems/photos coming out. Details below. sms Begin forwarded message: > From: Susan Schultz > Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:18:46 AM Pacific/Honolulu > To: schultz@hawaii.rr.com > Subject: Fwd: Kuan Yin book > > > > Susan M. Schultz > Professor > Department of English > University of Hawai`i-Manoa > Honolulu, HI 96822 > > _And then something happened_ is now out: > http://saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710165.htm > > http://tinfishpress.com > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/schultz/ > > From: Kathy Janette Phillips > Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:08:06 AM Pacific/Honolulu > To: sschultz@hawaii.edu > Subject: Kuan Yin book > > > Thanks for offering to include all or some of the following information > on your e-mail list. > > _This Isn't a Picture I'm Holding: Kuan Yin_ is a book about the > popular Buddhist figure Kuan Yin. The 55 contemporary poems combine > humor, poignancy, and the open-endedness of a koan. The 40 black and > white photos beautifully capture statues and paintings of KY in > Hawai'i. An intro. discusses KY and gender, religion, art, and > Hawai'i. > > University of Hawai'i Press, summer 2004, $14.95 > ISBN 0-8248-2757-0 > > > > Susan M. Schultz http://tinfishpress.com now available: _And Then Something Happened_ http://saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710165.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:41:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Pound, Imperialism, Cathay, Taiwan, Yau usw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've read with some interest the "Tiawan" thread although not all the issues involved interest me. Pound, in England, was an anti-Imperialist writer, with a mild satiric bent. Mauberly, Homage to Propertius and Cathay are all critiques of Imperial England, its culture, society, etc. In Cathay Pound was running in tandem with Waley in creating a version of imperial China and its scholar bureaucrat elite, a positive contrast to the English imperial elite that at the same time mirrored what Pound perceived as worthwhile in the English tradition. Pound doesn't go quite as far as Waley in assimilating the shi dafu / literatus to the educated English gentleman, but the tendency is the same. I think what John Yau was suggesting, about Pound, was that Pound's use of China was something in the Boston English-language culture he grew up in that valued China, and maybe the first thing he encountered to do so. When I knew John, 25 years ago, I thought he was somewhat ambivalent abo ut his Chinese heritage. In any case, the Taiwan mainstream seems to reject the idea that Taiwan is part of China, so why is anyone talking about China in a thread about Taiwan? duoxie hezuo. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:01:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Zukofksy & the TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: <010b01c46293$2a361b00$fb01110a@Cipherdog> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Recently helped start a Zukofsky-Neidecker group and here I am deep in the throes of A-8 while Taiwan -like some curious satellite, curious moon or mixed globalist metaphor - has been circling over this listserv. And it strikes me that Z - first generation of the start of the last century Jewish emigrant/immigrant, Yiddish speaking home (the story shd be well known) is here early in "A" - the late thirties continuously seized by the materials of his new country, turning them into an interpretive history - partly through the genius of his ear for apprehending and utilizing the new language (literary Brit English, American vernacular), going after the gems (Henry Adams Brahmin Amer/English thought), the grain in the craft in indigenous goods, folk stories and Christianity as a theatrical form, hammering Marx and new science into issues of labor & the ethical mix - welding and wielding it all into an inescapably engaging music. I have no idea what it's really like to be in Taiwan or the ways in which the place can be fully approached as a writer - but I do think Zukofsky's work sets a standard for being open, critical and integrative (comparable and different among other Objectivists and WCW among writers) and I think there are many valuable lessons to be returned to and studied here. Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:22:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Arrest and abuse of Iraqi children revealed In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://transdada.blogspot.com/ Arrest and abuse of Iraqi children revealed BERLIN,=97More than 100 children being held in prisons in Iraq were=20 arrested and suffered abuse from U.S. and coalition soldiers, according=20= to the Red Cross, reports Der Spiegel Online. ANSA reports that the online version of the weekly, which in turn cites=20= the program Report, from the SWR network, affirms that the abusive=20 episodes also took place in Abu Ghraib, the Baghdad prison where other=20= cases of torture were reported. =93Between January and May of this year, we registered 107 children in=20= total during 19 visits to six different prisons,=94 stated Florian=20 Westphal, International Red Cross spokesman, in an interview by SWR in=20= Geneva. These were prisons under the control of the occupation forces, Westphal=20= emphasized, adding that the number of detained children could be even=20 higher. http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/julio/mar6/28revela.html =A0 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:34:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Not to repeat arguments I've already made at great length, but hopefully to clarify. One thing I've learned in this discussion is that to raise the issue of racism is to have people make certain assumptions about your motives. According to some recent posts by Alexander Saliby and David Bircumshaw, anyone who raises questions about racism supposedly claims 1. to be totally free of racism themselves 2. that no one should ever write about a culture that is not their own 3. that no criticism of a non-white person is permissible Now, I may not be an objective reader of my own posts, but I certainly don't believe I ever said any of these things. That they are, directly or indirectly, being attributed to me I can explain only by recognizing that these are common responses to discussions of racism: charging anyone who would point out racism with hypocrisy, self-righteousness, narrow-mindedness and just plain stupidity. If someone wants to say that about the arguments I actually did make they are free to do so, but it seems odd to hold me responsible for assertions like the three above. Finally, I do feel I have to respond to Alex Saliby's strange claim that I am trying to tell Andrew how he should revise his poem. I'm doing nothing of the sort. I see no evidence that Andrew is at all interested in trying to "impress" or "please" me--quite the opposite, in fact--and I have no idea why he'd feel he should. Nor do I see any evidence that Andrew has been "apologizing" for his poem in his posts; again, quite the contrary. Andrew posted his poem to this list. I presume that was an action that invited response, and I offered one. What Andrew does with that response, and all the others, is his business; I'm not his teacher or his workshop leader. I'm merely a reader with a strong opinion; and if anything I took Andrew more, rather than less, seriously by reading his poem as a finished piece and not a mere draft. My response is an interpretation and not a suggestion for improvement. I'm under no illusions that my arguments will dissuade Andrew or anyone else from continuing to write poems in this vein; indeed, I am rather resigned to the fact that my objections, and the resulting discussion, will likely encourage Andrew to write more poems of comparable logic and rhetoric. I would find that to be a shame; others, like Alex, might find it delightful. Nonetheless, I've continued these arguments because I felt the potential benefits outweighed the risks; because the issues touched on are ones that need to be raised and considered; because I felt I had to offer a perspective that's not often heard here; and because I'd like to think that this list, however maddening it may be at times, still offers a frank and open forum for discussion of the most vexed issues in poetry and politics. Thanks to all those who have contributed their thoughts to this debate. Tim Yu http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:36:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Walking Theory #56 - 61 Comments: cc: Alison Croggon , Andrew Felsinger , Tanya Monique Brolaski , shanna compton , David Larsen , Ellen Zweig , Kit Robinson Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Walking Theory #56 - 61 Just up & various. As always appreciate your comments. http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:31:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: measurements: why do the taiwanese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ditto alex bravo ditto tho you added to the greatness of the triteness by your excellent conclusions but it's time we let sleeping tiawanese lie anyone ever read dead yellow womenn or was that girls???? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:06:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: the literary mist / raw rain letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i like this one alot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 04:11:24 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII thank *you,* timothy, and othes, for so persistently trying to be understood in the face of defensiveness that so often accompanies even the whisper of the word 'racism.' On 7 Jul 2004, Timothy Yu wrote: > Not to repeat arguments I've already made at great length, but > hopefully to clarify. > > One thing I've learned in this discussion is that to raise the issue > of racism is to have people make certain assumptions about your > motives. According to some recent posts by Alexander Saliby and > David Bircumshaw, anyone who raises questions about racism supposedly > claims > > 1. to be totally free of racism themselves > > 2. that no one should ever write about a culture that is not their own > > 3. that no criticism of a non-white person is permissible > > Now, I may not be an objective reader of my own posts, but I > certainly don't believe I ever said any of these things. That they > are, directly or indirectly, being attributed to me I can explain > only by recognizing that these are common responses to discussions of > racism: charging anyone who would point out racism with hypocrisy, > self-righteousness, narrow-mindedness and just plain stupidity. If > someone wants to say that about the arguments I actually did make > they are free to do so, but it seems odd to hold me responsible for > assertions like the three above. > > Finally, I do feel I have to respond to Alex Saliby's strange claim > that I am trying to tell Andrew how he should revise his poem. I'm > doing nothing of the sort. I see no evidence that Andrew is at all > interested in trying to "impress" or "please" me--quite the opposite, > in fact--and I have no idea why he'd feel he should. Nor do I see > any evidence that Andrew has been "apologizing" for his poem in his > posts; again, quite the contrary. > > Andrew posted his poem to this list. I presume that was an action > that invited response, and I offered one. What Andrew does with that > response, and all the others, is his business; I'm not his teacher or > his workshop leader. I'm merely a reader with a strong opinion; and > if anything I took Andrew more, rather than less, seriously by > reading his poem as a finished piece and not a mere draft. My > response is an interpretation and not a suggestion for improvement. > > I'm under no illusions that my arguments will dissuade Andrew or > anyone else from continuing to write poems in this vein; indeed, I am > rather resigned to the fact that my objections, and the resulting > discussion, will likely encourage Andrew to write more poems of > comparable logic and rhetoric. I would find that to be a shame; > others, like Alex, might find it delightful. Nonetheless, I've > continued these arguments because I felt the potential benefits > outweighed the risks; because the issues touched on are ones that > need to be raised and considered; because I felt I had to offer a > perspective that's not often heard here; and because I'd like to > think that this list, however maddening it may be at times, still > offers a frank and open forum for discussion of the most vexed issues > in poetry and politics. Thanks to all those who have contributed > their thoughts to this debate. > > Tim Yu > http://tympan.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 04:36:12 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jim's chinese wife's tai chi teacher sz she's too American to get the form she thinks Americans are dolts thus she is ..... the prof shortened the form for us thank the lord i'm down to two steps ..... oh well confucius sz the superior man can always shop... dawn...dr....dawn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:47:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Color's Torrid Function! Subject: this one very hot house Comments: To: Netbehavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jessica Yeo has given herself bangs I'd like to say, noting her hairy arms... http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ XanaxPop mobile poem blog *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:44:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Carbo Subject: Three American poets reading in Dublin this July! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dublin's Poetry Ireland prestigious reading series: Three American poets, introduced by Dennis O'Driscoll: Denise Duhamel, Nick Carb=F3 & Campbell McGrath Wednesday, 28th July @ 7pm Poetry Ireland, 120 St Stephens Green, Dublin 2 Admission free; tel. 01 4789974; e-mail poetry@iol.ie for mor info click: http://www.poetryireland.ie/readings/readings.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:31:28 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: this potter no anarcho-syndicalist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/story.jsp?story=537922 Harry Potter and the Capitalist Pigs fails to charm the French left By John Lichfield in Paris 05 July 2004 In the très sérieux columns of Le Monde, a debate is raging, which slices to the heart of the political and philosophical concerns of the early 21st century. Is Harry Potter a capitalist neo-liberal? Or is he an anti-globalist lefty, concerned by the fate of the humble and the oppressed? The opinion pages of the centre-left French daily - more often occupied with human cloning or Third World debt - have, over the past three weeks, been examining, in high Marxist-structuralist manner, the political subtext of the works of J K Rowling. The Great Debate was launched on 4 June by Ilias Yocaris, maître de conférences of French literature at the Institut Universitaire de Formation de Maîtres in Nice. M. Yocaris, among those responsible for training the next generation of French teachers, complained in Le Monde that the "fantasy universe of Harry Potter is ... a capitalist universe". The five Harry Potter books - enormously successful in French translation - are stuffed with "neo-liberal stereotypes" which caricature approvingly the "excesses of the Anglo-Saxon social model", M. Yocaris said. Thus all representatives of the state (the Ministry of Magic) are lampooned as ridiculous, or incompetent or sinister. Harry goes to a "private" school, whose "micro-society" is a "pitiless jungle" which glorifies "individualism, excessive competition and a cult of violence". Public institutions are unable to protect individuals. Au contraire, Harry Potter and his friends find they have to break the magical state-imposed rules constantly to protect themselves from evil forces. M. Yocaris says the Harry Potter books are an example of the totalitarian universe imagined by George Orwell, come to life. "Capitalism is now trying to shape, after its own taste, not only the real world, but the imaginary world of its consumer-citizens," he says. Now Le Monde has published an equally erudite reply to M. Yocaris's thesis. Far from being a capitalist lackey, Harry Potter is, in fact, the first fictional hero of the anti-globalist, anti-free market, pro-Third World, "Seattle" generation, Isabelle Smadja believes. Mme Smadja, who teaches philosophy at the Lycée Loritz in Nancy, suggests M. Yocaris has been confused by the Potter books being such a global, commercial and marketing success. Examination of the text suggests they are, in fact, a "ferocious critique of consumer society and the world of free enterprise". The magical world created by J K Rowling is, Mme Smadja declares, suffused with the ideas of "alter-mondialisme" or "other-worldism", the name given to the anti-global movement in France. Harry and his friends show creditable concern for the "house elves", the unpaid servants of the magical world. But with the elves being mostly content with their lot this is, says Mme Smadja, a "pertinent" critique of globalisation. "Poor countries are so blinded and attracted by the system which exploits them that they have no desire to revolt against it", she adds. French intellectuals have struggled to come to terms with the success of the Potter books and movies. There have been structuralist and post-structuralist interpretations, suggesting the books are "anti- progressive" and "sexist". There have also been complaints in France that many of the wicked characters in the books (Voldemort or vol de mort [flight of death] ) - have French names. OneLe Monde reader mocked the tendency of some French intellectuals to wallow in ideological abstraction. "A question presents itself," Vincent de Longueville from Paris asked in the newspaper's letters column. "Was Ilias Yocaris ever young?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:39:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: new media blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dearest, Some words and adding words. Looking for thoughts. A new blog...with many concerns. A poetry clock, a new way to show words on digital pages. please come: http://www.newformsreview.com/alive/ cheers, Jason Nelson __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:00:45 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Timothy I have followed this articulate and intelligent discussion with great interest. In part, aside from its intrinsic interest, I've found it fascinating to see (yet again) how similar the topos of argument is to discussions around gender. By no means are the issues the same - each has its own complexities and nuances - but there is so often a structural similarity in how these things are spoken about. The point you make below, for example, is rather familiar to me, but I'm not sure I've been able to respond with your measured clarity. All the best A On 7/7/04 3:34 PM, "Timothy Yu" wrote: > One thing I've learned in this discussion is that to raise the issue > of racism is to have people make certain assumptions about your > motives. According to some recent posts by Alexander Saliby and > David Bircumshaw, anyone who raises questions about racism supposedly > claims > > 1. to be totally free of racism themselves > > 2. that no one should ever write about a culture that is not their own > > 3. that no criticism of a non-white person is permissible > > Now, I may not be an objective reader of my own posts, but I > certainly don't believe I ever said any of these things. That they > are, directly or indirectly, being attributed to me I can explain > only by recognizing that these are common responses to discussions of > racism: charging anyone who would point out racism with hypocrisy, > self-righteousness, narrow-mindedness and just plain stupidity. If > someone wants to say that about the arguments I actually did make > they are free to do so, but it seems odd to hold me responsible for > assertions like the three above. Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher McCreary Subject: Paul Naylor eddress? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks, I'm looking for an email address for Paul Naylor. If anyone could backchannel the info, I'd be much obliged. Thanks. Lurking, Chris McCreary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Walking Theory #56 - 61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen: #56 is dynamic. Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:36 PM Subject: Walking Theory #56 - 61 > Walking Theory #56 - 61 > > Just up & various. As always appreciate your comments. > > http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > > Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:12:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MDL Subject: Maudite Productions Presents Jeet Thayil and Philip Nikolayev Sat. July 10, 8PM Gallery 108 Somerville, MA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maudite Productions presents Jeet Thayil and Philip Nikolayev Saturday, July 10, 8PM. @ Gallery 108 Gallery 108 108 Beacon St., Somerville, MA JEET THAYIL Jeet Thayil is the author of English (Penguin/Rattapallax, 2004). His poems have appeared in Verse, Stand, Agenda, Fulcrum and London Magazine, among others journals. He was born in Kerala, India, and educated in Hongkong, New York and Bombay. In 1998, he returned to New York, where he received an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College. His two earlier collections of poetry, Gemini and Apocalypso, appeared, respectively, in Bombay and London. PHILIP NIKOLAYEV was born in Moscow, Russia, in 1966 and grew up fully bilingual in Russian and English thanks to his father, a linguist. He started out as a Russian poet, but came to the United States in 1990 to attend Harvard University, and has since been writing primarily in English. His poems have appeared in such journals as The Paris Review, Grand Street, Verse, Stand, Jacket, Salt, overland and many others across the English-speaking world. Nikolayev lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with his poet wife Katia Kapovich and their four year old daughter Sophia Margarita. He is the editor and publisher of Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:13:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Devil Anse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed strange ange thu do regedit tbyars problem ange strange -- regedit -- strange ange problem tbyars regedit do thu ange strange quote do regedit heh strange ange nalism -- regedit heh - ange - heh regedit -- nalism ange problem heh regedit do with strange ange with do regedit tbyars problem ange strange -- regedit -- strange ange problem tbyars regedit -- thu ange strange quote do regedit quote strange ange nalism -- regedit heh - ange - heh regedit -- nalism ange problem heh regedit do with strange ange with do regedit heh problem ange strange -- regedit -- strange ange - tbyars regedit -- thu ange strange quote do regedit quote strange ange thu -- regedit tbyars - ange strange heh regedit -- nalism ange problem heh regedit do with strange ange with do regedit heh problem ange nalism -- regedit heh strange ange - tbyars regedit -- thu ange strange quote do regedit quote strange ange thu -- regedit tbyars - ange strange heh regedit -- nalism ange problem heh regedit do with ange ange with do regedit heh problem ange nalism -- regedit heh strange ange - tbyars regedit -- thu ange strange quote regedit do ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:37:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Walking Theory #56 - 61 In-Reply-To: <005601c4643b$d082d620$eafdfc83@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you, Joel. Your park site is looking good. Did you get something from the Thomas A Clark book? Off to Oaxaca soon. Stephen V > Stephen: > > #56 is dynamic. > > Best, > Joel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Vincent" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:36 PM > Subject: Walking Theory #56 - 61 > > >> Walking Theory #56 - 61 >> >> Just up & various. As always appreciate your comments. >> >> http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com >> >> Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy: Even though I get the feeling a lot of readers may be ready for this thread to end in sleep, I continue to push on, as this discussion has continued to push me. A number of new posts have been added to this sub-thread, so I hope we can incorporate them all. Perhaps a switch to para-reply method will help? Timothy wrote: > It's really not for me to defend John Yau's opinions about Pound, > especially since I don't know the article to which you refer. True. Likewise, my attempts to bring Yau's comments into the discussion are a bit unfair to everyone who has not read the article, or has not read it recently. Still, it's an important one in dealing with the question of what happens when someone not of a certain culture or race works to represent a certain culture or race in writing. And that is one of the many questions buzzing around here, isn't it? > But I > would suggest that Yau's simultaneously criticizing Pound and showing > Pound's influence is really no more surprising than Pound himself > calling Whitman "pig-headed" at the same time that he acknowledges > him as a "father." Indeed, Yau's ambivalence toward Pound is, I > think, characteristic of his ambivalence toward "Chinese" influences > throughout his work (and in the work of other American > writers/artists): they can be enormously generative and provide us > with a tremendously expanded poetic vocabulary, but at the very same > time they can be restrictive and even repressive in the cultural > images they provide, inevitably marked by the way Chinese influences > have made their way into American culture (a process in which > imperialism and racism play an unavoidable part). That ambivalence > is heightened for a Chinese American writer whose relation to Chinese > sources is always going to be read differently than that of a (white) > writer like Pound. You give Yau the benefit of the doubt. I recommend you find the article. It's much more fierce than "pig-headed father", especially as he sets up the article. It's a long and vitriolic review of the poetry anthology "American Poetry Since 1950: Innovaters and Outsiders", and Yau moves from saying that Pound was imperialist and racist and had no interest in letting the Other speak for him- or herself, to saying that the editor of the anthology (an erstwhile friend of Yau's), in starting with Pound's translations of the classical Chinese "Book of Odes", is also imperialist and racist and has no interest in letting the Other speak for him- or herself. It's quite a diatribe, really, and in no way does Yau in that article present himself as well as you are here. > Again, I want to echo Rich's very good point that "imperialism" and > "racism" are not merely situational, deriving from the conscious > intentions of doing harm by a particular actor at a particular > moment. To say a work is imperialist, or marked by imperialism, is > not to say it is just bad and that no good can come of it; it is a > statement about the conditions of global and cultural power under > which that work is written. true, but. Not only in the context of a book review, where Yau calls the editor and his project racist, resulting in potential readers not buying the book, but in the context of North American political life, where accusations and misaccusations of racism are particularly and poignantly damning (does anyone remember the details of the professor who resigned after being accused of using racist language, which was really just a misunderstanding of the derivation of "calling a spade a spade"?), to fault a work of literature for failing to meet up to our current values is to paint it negatively. I do understand the value of such criticism, when aimed in the opposite direction: "What does the racism of Othello tell us about ourselves when we respond to the play?", for instance. And even though I know you are at great pains not to dismiss Andrew or his poem the way that public figures charged with racism do get dismissed, the charge can be equally damaging. Whether you need to take responsibility for extra-intentional connotations and denotations any more than Andrew needs to take responsbility for your or my reaction to "why do the tiawanese" is not the point. The point is that racism is a serious charge, and it takes at once a serious sophistication to get beyond its character-condemnation, as well as a serious naivete to think that saying a work is "imperialist" is purely a historical description. > I am guessing that you provide the quote from Chang, Lew, Tabios, and > Yau as an example of the extremity of their rhetoric--implying that > such a charge is (like the charge of "imperialism" against Pound) > simply unfair. But I must say that I find their analysis of the > Yasusada affair nuanced and entirely apt, precisely because they look > beyond the simplistic claim, "Well, if the poems themselves are > 'good,' all other questions are moot." Instead, they recognize that > such "extrapoetic" issues--authorship, nationality, politics, > race--are in fact *precisely* the point of the Yasusada project, > since these poems are a conscious attempt by a white American writer > to speak in the voice of a Japanese poet (a victim, moreover, of an > American horror) and then to disavow his own authorship. Is the charge unfair? As a charge, I don't think it's unfair. But as a verdict, I think it's irrelevant and irresponsible. Your assumption, furthermore, which is the assumption of many, that "these poems are a conscious attempt by a white American writer to speak in the voice of a Japanese poet ... and then to disavow his own authorship" is still, in the end, an assumption. Just as you reminded me of Barthes and Fish, I will remind you of same in putting the locus of the writing on a single--especially assumed--author. As it happens, I've been in contact with Kent Johnson for no short time. He does not say, or even suggest, even in private conversation, that he is the "real" author of Yasusada. Instead, he speaks of the event as a passionate explainer, kind of the way you might expect from a literary executor of a friend's estate. He responded, directly to me, to your reading of Yasusada, and gave me permission to bring it into the discussion. Kent says: >>It's true that these issues are embedded in Yasusada, and obviously so, but in what manner does their presence signify racist intent?? There's simply no logic to Tim's statement here. Tim is also wrong to imply that these more theoretical vectors are the *essence* of Yasusada's first purpose and meaning, which was and is (for what it's worth, and whether it succeeds or not) an empathic one-- to imagine a radical otherness through a poetic act whose "transgressive" form seeks ways of engaging and understanding beyond safe and approved modes. (Forrest Gander's remarks from The Nation (essay reprinted in Jacket #4) seem apropos here-- and are better said: "Yasusada proposes a radical contemporary aesthetic response to one of the worst human atrocities, what Kai Bird, Gar Alperovitz, and others have amply demonstrated as the absolutely unnecessary nuclear bombing of the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by American military forces. Using modernist strategies, the author(s), steeped in translations of Japanese literature and feeling uneasy, even - if they are Americans - complicit with the U.S. foreign policy that generated such mass destruction, invented an imaginative, political and poetic act of empathy. To write poems concerning Hiroshima, they felt it necessary to imagine themselves as the other, "the enemy." They relinquished their own identities as authors and became invisible, as the Hiroshima victims themselves disappeared. It is an impossible gesture of solidarity, since one cannot become someone else and since one cannot truly imagine one's way into an actual culture considerably different from one's own. But nevertheless, it is a gesture worth making if its resultant poetry is worthwhile as art, as poetry, as - finally - contemporary Western poetry. In this gambit, Doubled Flowering is an astonishing success." (Lucas again): Sorry for the Chinese box (ahem) style of this quotation-within-quotation email. But I think that Kent's highlighting of "the *essence* of Yasusada's first intent" of empathy, are important, even as I find authorial intent a quicksand I'd like not to step into. But more on empathy later. Kent also says, in response to Timothy's placement of the authorship on white American shoulders: >>The ethnicity of the author or authors of Yasusada is not publicly acknowledged and never will be. What Tim Yu and others must be asked is whether the bombing of Hiroshima and its ethical repercussions are reducible in any way to ethnic and sociological parameters. Those who insist on such, I'd propose, dishonor the victims of that massive crime and the *human* present and future they have suffered for-- and they dishonor, likewise, the urgently universal message of hibakusha literature, a body of testimony to which a gesture like Yasusada remains a shadow, to be sure... Moreover, an interesting blindness of sorts is revealed in Tim's parenthetical remark above: The fact that Hiroshima *is* also an American horror is precisely what complicates the whole matter-- Japanese and American "faces" are in profound ways fused in the power of the event's unprecedented meaning. (By the way, the second Yasusada book coming out shortly from Mike Magee's Combo Press --Yasusada's letters in English-- will carry an afterword by a leading Japanese scholar of Hiroshima roots, whose relatives are hibakusha. He has published prominently on Yasusada in Japan, and his moving essay might lead Tim and his co-thinkers, I think, to reflect a bit more on some of their assumptions.) (Lucas again): This is, I think, an interesting point: the repercussions of Hiroshima and such events are not reducivle to ethnic and sociological parameters. I am moved when a French newspaper claims, on September 12, 2001, "Nous sommes tous Americains", and I am insulted when former Chinese roommates in Paris didn't care about the destruction of the lives in the twin towers because, as they said, it didn't happen in their country. I do not think these emotions have anything to do with me as an American, but rather with me as a human. I find something inhuman--beyond even inhumane--when my former Chinese roommates are not affected by two buildings full of people crushing them all. I think to speak in terms of race and nationality at this point is to miss something very serious. > The > reception of Yasusada, even before the revelation of the "hoax," > shows that these issues guided and aided the reading of the text > among American writers, and that the poems' author quite consciously > played upon American expectations about Japanese writing and > subjectivity in order to make his point. Kent again: >>This is a complex issue. But the poems, as is well known, wear their fictional status boldly on their sleeve. Is it the fault of the writer(s) that the poems had the specific intitial history they did? Why were the open clues --very unexpectedly, for the author(s)-- passed over? (There are many other instances of "self-exposure" that still haven't been commented on, incidentally.) Why is the author[s] to be so blamed if he, she, or they, initially and provisionally, chose to present the poems in the "heteronymous" spirit under which they were written? Was Pessoa likely irresponsible? Kierkegaard? The author of the Tosa Diary? I think the real question that needs to be asked is this: Why does Tim seemingly ignore what has been the plain case now for ten years-- that Yasusada is a work of fiction, a fiction openly proffered within a text written by an "author" whose chosen authorial silence *is continuous with the meaning and spirit of the work*? What is interesting, in other words, is how the simple desire of a writer to not claim a work via his legal identity so troubles writers like Yu, Yau, Lin, Lew, many Caucasian writers, etc.), and I believe it probably troubles them in part because they happen to be, in their particular institutional locations, invested in categories that rely --lock, stock, and barrel-- on ideological rituals of conventialized authorship. A work like Yasusada, apparently, threatens their hold (in their minds, anyway-- it doesn't need to!) on instruments of classification and positioning-- ones which, again, are incapable of containing the meanings and resonances of Hiroshima. > Chang, Lew, Tabios, and > Yau's final point describes precisely what I think is going on with > Andrew's poem and the subsequent discussion: "he wants the taint of > scandal without having to take responsibility for the stereotypes he > celebrates." Kent again: >>To which rather silly and superficial comparison I say: Please read the book and write an essay explaining how Doubled Flowering can be reduced to, and dismissed as, an act of "stereotyping." (Frankly, that Yasusada represents a "stereotypical" image of a Japanese individual is a laughable concept-- and should be, to anyone who has read the work or some of the thoughtful secondary literature that has come in its wake.) (Lucas again): I see nothing sinister in Yasusada's creation of a character from another race. Quite the contrary, I see it the way Kenneth Rexroth viewed his translations: "an exercise of sympathy on the highest level". I see that people who respond negatively to it are usually those who were, in some way, fooled: the editors who believed that it was written by a true hibakusha poet, and the like. But couldn't (shouldn't) that anger be directed at themselves for not knowing more about Japanese writing, instead of against the "purpetrators" of the "hoax"? as far as this relates to Andrew's poem, I think it's clear that Andrew "wants the scandal", but is also very willing to take responsibility for the "stereotypes" he refers to. And I don't see a "celebration" in either (Yasusada or Tiawanese) case. Perhaps this would be an interesting place to splice Rich's comments about racism when called out by a non-direct victim of racism: Rich: >>> I want to highlight these two quotes because they raise the very uncomfortable question of the degree to which we perceive racism as being, primarily, and maybe even exclusively, the problem of the people who are the objects of whatever racial hatred we happen to be talking about, in this case Asian-Americans, and not of everybody else who lives in the society where such racism is present. That's a horribly abstract way of asking the question, but I have put it that way because I think the question goes far beyond this particular thread and the fact that Tim is Asian-American and I am not, and because I want as much as possible to avoid any sort of romanticizing or sentimentalizing my own position in this conversation, but I do wonder ... about the degree to which we perceive those people who are not the objects of racial hatred but who nonetheless speak out against it as acting primarily out of a kind of selflessness, in defense, so to speak, of those who are the objects of racial hatred, and so they, the unhated (god, what a horrible construction!) become invisible in a way because they are not seen as having anything truly personal, and therefore selfish, stake in the issue. I do not want to deny that, in this case, Tim's personal stake in speaking out against anti-Asian/Asian-American racism is far more obvious and immediate than mine. He is Asian-American and I am not, but this racism--all racism, of course, but I'm speaking in the context of this thread--has shaped and continues to shape my own life in ways that I did not/do not want/like, according to values that I reject, and that are differently, but I would argue no less deeply personal than the ways in which racism has shaped and, as evidenced by this thread, continues to shape Tim's life as well. <<< (Lucas again): This is an interesting phenomenon, and one I haven't paid much attention to, though certainly I've been susceptible to its pull. And while I know I'm not responding to your point directly, Rich, I do think it would be interesting to turn around and look at from the point of view of the writer. That is, does the idea that (for the sake of argument--leaving aside the never-racially-innocent notion of assumption about the Yasusada author) a "white male north american" author created a Japanese poet also interact with your position that the originally selfless becomes invisible? What I mean is, can Yasusada be treated as a tribute to Japan, can Pound be read as writing tributes to China, instead of putting these acts of translation in terms of "yellowface" and "imperialism" and "stereotype"? Is the writer writing against racism--even if he or she is referring to racist discourse and, as Rich put it, "participating in racialized discourse"--always going to be turned somewhat invisible (or more to the point: viewed as Imperialist) as long as he or she is not from the culture in question? In the post that just came in from Timothy, he says he never stated "that no one should ever write about a culture that is not their own". That's true. He never said this, never even suggested it. So I'm not attributing the counter-point to Timothy when I ask, seriously, if in these times anyone who writes about a culture other than his or her own is open to attack by people who will think that, because of racial proximity, such writing is motivated by darker impulses and discriminations? When I say "these times" I mean the last fifteen to twenty years, probably. About forty years ago the racial ideal was to ignore it: "content of character" not "color of skin". I think a shift happened not too long ago (Rich referred to this when he mentioned how white people used to want "us all to be colorblind", when really that meant "pretend everyone is white") where people decided that to look past a black person's blackness, a hispanic's hispanicity, an asian's asianness, a gay person's gayness, is to ignore a very large factor of what creates content of that person's character. I wonder what others think about this observation, and whether it has affected the way we read literature. Timothy again: > In this sense, Yau's remark that Pound is just "a man of his time" is > a way of letting Pound off the hook--perhaps, given his own > circumstances, he did the best he could. But the flipside is that > we, writing today, ought to know better. A poem such as Andrew's > *knows* that it is dealing in racist stereotypes, and does so with > the intention of disavowing responsibility for such stereotypes when > called out on them. Again, I'm not sure that Andrew means to "disavow responsibility". And I appreciate comments by David Bircumshaw, who pointed out that Arthur Waley, not Pound, was the real keystone of bringing ancient China into the anglophone world (I think _Cathay_ predated any of Waley's publications, but I don't have the dates in front of me, so I could be wrong; nevertheless, Waley's output as translator was massive, and his translations of poetry, fiction, and philosophy from China, Korea, and Japan did much to broaden the Anglophone's vision of the literary world), and that "terms like 'racist' or 'sexist' do apply in some contexts". This may be especially true in Pound's case (I get the feeling that because he was a fascist and anti-semite, Pound is an easy target for those who would claim other vices in his writing), as Simon Schuchat noted, because Pound himself was an anti-imperialist writer (though Simon: I think we are talking about China and Japan and Korea and Taiwan and other places as part of the Asian context; furthermore, the Taiwanese mainstream's rejection of political China has nothing to do with cultural China, which is as much a part of Taiwan's history as any of us in anglophone countries share with England). > Finally, on the "dog-eating" issue. Frank Wu's _Yellow: Race in > America Beyond Black and White_ has an entire chapter devoted to the > question, "Do Asians eat dogs?" After running through the possible > and more obvious ways to respond to such a query--the > "assimilationist" answer ("No, we don't; and if other Asians do we > don't approve of it"), the "multiculturalist" answer ("Sure, they do; > what's wrong with that?")--before concluding that the real response > should be, "What is the point of the question?" In short, one needs > to inquire into the motive behind the rhetoric--to expose the fact > that pretty much the only function of raising the issue is a way of > making Asians the subject of a punchline, to place them outside > civilized behavior. Then call me a multiculturalist! But if the "real response" should be an inquiry into the motives, then where does that leave the imperialist critique of Ezra Pound's Chinese translations? Where does that leave stereotyping in the Yasusada poems? Where does that leave the racism in Andrew's poem? The motives of all these acts of poetry seem pretty pure, and I'm not convinced at all that "the only function of raising the issue [of dog-eating] is a way of making Asians the subject of a punchline, to place them outside civilized behavior". In Western civilization we throw a lot of the animal away, but when as a grade-schooler I heard that American Indians use every part of the animal, I heard it with a tone of admiration. And the American Indians were uncivilized! (I mean that in the strict definition of the word: no cities, no writing system, etc., and not as a value judgement). When Kosher Jews refer to goyim eating pork, is "the motive behind the rhetoric" to expose the gentiles as outside civilized behavior? This just doesn't work for me. Tone of voice is important. So are associations. Andrew wrote about dogs being run over, which Timothy assosicated with dogs being eaten. So really, Timothy, we have to ask: what is the point behind your association? > Maybe the best commentary on the stereotype I've ever seen, though, > is a prose piece by Filipino American writer R. Zamora Linmark called > "They Like You Because You Eat Dog." I've been thinking about it > during this whole discussion, in fact, because this prose poem bears > some surface resemblances to Andrew's, in particular the anaphoric > structure (in Linmark's case, "They like you because..."). Linmark's > piece (which can be found in the anthology _Charlie Chan Is Dead_ as > well as online at > http://eths.sfsu.edu/aas214s2004/Project/timbutler.html) shows how > the image of "eating dog" is part and parcel of a whole constellation > of images about Asians as abject and subservient--many of which, > again, echo some of the same stereotypes Andrew uses. But the poem, > to my mind, has that critical edge that Andrew's lacks. Yes, this a more mature and developed poem than "Why do the Tiawanese". I particularly appreciate the way in which it doubly indicts the Filipino/Asian/Asian-American subject and the Euro-American readership. But the first line of the bio after the poem, "Rolling the R's was written by gay Filipino author R. Zamora Linmark", reiterates the importance of the author's identity to understanding the poetry. And this is the same trap we fall into in assuming that Yasusada was written by a white man (or that this matters), or that because Pound lived in the era of English colonialism then he was a product of it (despite being neither English nor an apologist for imperialism), and instead gets us to the same place where we value critiques of racism most when they come from those directly insulted, and where Kent can point out that Yasusada "probably troubles them [Yau, Chang, Lew, Lin] in part because they happen to be, in their particular institutional locations, invested in categories that rely --lock, stock, and barrell-- on ideological rituals of conventialized authorship". phew. That was a lot to get through. Lucas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:21:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [NBPP-National] THIS IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FROM S.F. BAYVIEW TO ILLINOIS AND BEYOND FEDERAL HOUSING CUTS AND GENTRIFICATION ARE EFFECTING OUR PEOPLE AT RECORD NUMBERS. THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT CUTS AT MY HEART. ME AND MY FAMILY OF (5) HAVE BEEN HOMELESS ON TWO OCCASIANS AND I FEEL THREATEND THAT IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN, FOR I LIVE IN PUBLIC HOUSING. HOMLESSNESS AND GENTRIFICATION MUST BE STOPPED AND COMBATED AT ALL COST!!! IF IT WERE TO HAPPEN AGAIN, YOU MIGHT READ OR SEE ME ON THE NEWS FOR SHOT GUNNING THE HOUSING AUTHORITY TO A PILE A RUBBLE!!!! AND I MEAN THAT!!!! Federal cuts hit home 30 households losing their subsidies from EHA By Anne Marie Apollo STAFF WRITER ELGIN -- Shirley Anderson waited six years for a Section Eight Housing voucher from the Elgin Housing Authority. In April, she got one. On Tuesday, she saw it slip away. Anderson's is one of more than 30 households the housing authority cut from its rolls this month, local casualties of federal changes made to the program administered by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Local housing authority officials said they didn't want to eliminate the support, but a dwindling budget left them little choice. And more cuts could be coming, they said. In April, HUD announced that Congress had changed the formula to calculate how much each housing authority receives for its Housing Choice Voucher program. Commonly known as Section Eight, the program gives low-income residents a subsidy allowing them to live in privately owned residences instead of public housing. This year, agencies were told the government would increase the amount of their vouchers only according to the rate of inflation, not by the amount the rent went up. The change left many agencies, including the Elgin Housing Authority, short of cash, as it came after their budgets for the year already were completed. Much of reserves spent EHA Executive Director Sandra Freeman said the agency expects to get several million dollars less than it did last year because of the adjustment. The housing authority has taken steps recommended by HUD to save money but still finds itself short, she said. Freeman added that the agency had already spent 58 percent of what it had in reserve before the cut. Because Congress left open avenues for housing authorities to appeal for more money based on increased inflation for some vouchers, the amount the EHA receives has fluctuated each month. In June, it took in $40,000 less than expected, Freeman said. This month, $1,000 was restored to its totals, but that wasn't enough to forestall the cuts. The agency sent out letters on June 30 informing selected tenants that their leases would be terminated. Those families have until the end of the month to make other arrangements. Freeman said some may be able to find housing in apartments owned by the EHA. The last households to get vouchers were the first to lose them, Freeman said. She was unsure whether more reductions would be needed. The Elgin Housing Authority has 913 clients with Section Eight vouchers. More of them could be affected by cuts if Congress approves HUD's proposed 2005 budget, which includes the new Flexible Voucher Program, Freeman said. Under that program, the EHA would receive a set amount for housing vouchers that is not based on the actual number of units its clients rent. According to HUD, changing the way the program is run will make it more efficient and give local agencies more autonomy in how the money is spent. A cruel joke But those benefiting from the program are struggling to understand how they will be affected. When Juanita Brooks received a letter Friday stating her subsidy had been terminated, she thought it was a cruel joke. The full rent on her four-bedroom apartment is $1,200, an amount she said she cannot afford on her own. Until recently moving into her current Section Eight home, she'd been paying $750 a month to live in an apartment at the River's Landing complex on Elgin's near-east side. Brooks, who works full time, said she had to stay home Tuesday to try to sort things out. She was first in line at the local housing authority with questions about the letter, and she was the first to hear that nothing could be done. She and her three children moved to their new apartment in April after waiting three years for a Section Eight voucher. "And this is what I get in July," she said. "That I've got to go, because there is no more funding. Why give me the voucher if they're going to take it away?" Shirley Anderson asked the same thing Tuesday. She opened her letter Saturday afternoon and spent the entire weekend trying to figure out where she would go with her two children at the end of the month, she said. The family moved out of Carpentersville's troubled Fox View Apartments in April. She said she doesn't have cash available to start over again, and her new landlord is not pleased that the subsidy has been eliminated. "This is a business for him," she said. "He wants his money." BLACK POWER!!! TO DEFINE DEVELOP DEFEND THE BEST INTEREST OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY _ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: <00c501c46444$d4ba2820$fb01110a@Cipherdog> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lucas wrote: >>Not only in the context of a book review, where Yau calls the editor and his project racist, resulting in potential readers not buying the book, but in the context of North American political life, where accusations and misaccusations of racism are particularly and poignantly damning (does anyone remember the details of the professor who resigned after being accused of using racist language, which was really just a misunderstanding of the derivation of "calling a spade a spade"?), to fault a work of literature for failing to meet up to our current values is to paint it negatively. I do understand the value of such criticism, when aimed in the opposite direction: "What does the racism of Othello tell us about ourselves when we respond to the play?", for instance.<< I do not know Yau's work or the essay that and other material that Lucas and Tim and others have been referring to and so I cannot take on the question of whether Yau was doing what Lucas suggests he was doing, but I do think it's important to say that calling a work from another period racist (or sexist, or whatever) does not have to mean faulting it "for failing to meet up to our current standards"--a formulation which suggests, I think, that somehow what we (whoever "we" are) write now is not informed by racism and sexism and other values that we might prefer to be able to disown. There are two points here, I think. The first and perhaps more obvious one is that we may be more conscious of how those values work now, and we might expect a writer trying to do now what, say, Pound tried to do in Cathay (whatever that was; if this is a bad example, please substitute an appropriate one) to be more conscious of how racism/imperialism/colonialism/pick-your-ism works in writing/translation, but it is important to acknowledge, I think, that those values would still be present in whatever he produced, in ways he could not control, and so if the standard is to eliminate racism (or sexism, etc.), we are always already failing and so the standard is out of reach. (I should be clear that I am not being defeatist here; it's just that I don't believe in utopia. The oppressive values that are part of our culture are part of our culture. The best we can do is be vigilant in making sure we, as individuals and institutions, don't hurt people as a result of them.) Which brings me to my second point. Lucas is right that one question we can ask about the racism in a piece of work is what it tells us about ourselves when we respond to it, but another question we can ask about it is, "How did/does it shape our cultural vision of whomever the object of racism is?" This is not just a question of personal response, though I do not want to deny the importance of personal response. Assume, for the moment, that whatever it means to call Pound's Cathay imperialist or racist is true. To the degree that his text became a foundational text for others who wanted to translate Chinese literature into English or write in what Pound's translation foregrounded as the possibilities of writing in a "Chinese style or of incorporating aspects of a Chinese poetic repertoire into English--to the extent that the imperialism in his text went unexamined by those who used his text, then their texts reproduced that imperialism and embedded it even further into the cultural view of China embedded in English language and literature. (This may apply only to the Englishes of the US and Britain or only the US; I am not sure, but I think the point is clear.) And so there is a level at which to call a work racist is not to dismiss it for failing to live up to the progressive anti-racist standards we like to think we hold ourselves to now--though I will not deny it is entirely possible to use a charge of racism to invalidate a work's claim to legitimacy--but it is rather to use what we understand now about how racism or imperialism works to go back and look at how the work functioned within the culture where it was produced. And I think this second way of asking questions about the racism of a text produced in an earlier time gets lost in what seems to me to be Lucas' focus on personal/individual responses. (I also should say that I just realized I may have appeared to use racism and imperialism in what I just wrote as if they are interchangeable; obviously they are not.) >>The point is that racism is a serious charge, and it takes at once a serious sophistication to get beyond its character-condemnation, as well as a serious naivete to think that saying a work is "imperialist" is purely a historical description.<< This is a point worth thinking about, not because I think this is what has gone on in this discussion--at least I don't think either Tim or I have used to term racist to engage in any sort of character assassination or with any sense that any kind of label does not have emotional content for those to whom it is applied, those who apply and those who hear it being applied to others. But it is worth asking why we find it so difficult to accept such labels when they are accurate descriptions of something within ourselves; why we--and here I mean those of who work in good faith to undo the damage that racism and sexism, etc. do in whatever country/culture we happen to live in--so often insist on accepting the dominant culture's insistence that calling someone racist must mean a condemnation of who he or she is as an entire human being rather than a description of one aspect of his or her character that informs the way he or she lives in the world. What do I mean by this: If I say that I struggle with my own sexism, or my own racism, or homophobia, or my own sense of entitlement in the world as a citizen of the United States, or the very strong sense of American/US exceptionalism it is so difficult to escape if you are raised in this country--if I say that, what am I saying about myself other than that I am struggling with a set of values that were given to me, that I do not like/want to live my life through and that I am aware I benefit from even when I don't want to, and even when I try consciously not to benefit from them. Or if someone says to me that I am somehow expressing those values, painful and embarrassing as it may be for me to hear that, what are they saying other than that I have not been successful in that moment, in that way, in maintaining the vigilance I spoke about above, or, to put it another way, in taking responsibility for the privilege I have here because of my gender, skin color, sexual identity, whatever? For me, the pain that it might cause someone when I point out they are being in any particular moment a racist, no, let me say this about myself, the pain it causes me when someone points out to me that I have been racist in something I have said or done is certainly not a welcome pain, but I think it is a necessary pain, and it is one that I would rather not be spared and that I refuse to bend over backwards to spare another, because it is a pain that is a necessary part of my growth, of our growth as a culture, away from the use of oppressive values to oppress people. And I will return one more time to Andrew's poem: the point is not that he should not write about what he chose to write about, the point, my point, Tim's point, is that he should, if he wants to rewrite, work through the ways in which racism works in his poem and decide how he wants his poem to comment on/respond to that. Which is not the same thing as being willing to acknowledge that he uses stereotypes in the poem. Perhaps this would be an interesting place to splice Rich's comments about racism when called out by a non-direct victim of racism: Rich: >>> I want to highlight these two quotes because they raise the very uncomfortable question of the degree to which we perceive racism as being, primarily, and maybe even exclusively, the problem of the people who are the objects of whatever racial hatred we happen to be talking about, in this case Asian-Americans, and not of everybody else who lives in the society where such racism is present. That's a horribly abstract way of asking the question, but I have put it that way because I think the question goes far beyond this particular thread and the fact that Tim is Asian-American and I am not, and because I want as much as possible to avoid any sort of romanticizing or sentimentalizing my own position in this conversation, but I do wonder ... about the degree to which we perceive those people who are not the objects of racial hatred but who nonetheless speak out against it as acting primarily out of a kind of selflessness, in defense, so to speak, of those who are the objects of racial hatred, and so they, the unhated (god, what a horrible construction!) become invisible in a way because they are not seen as having anything truly personal, and therefore selfish, stake in the issue. I do not want to deny that, in this case, Tim's personal stake in speaking out against anti-Asian/Asian-American racism is far more obvious and immediate than mine. He is Asian-American and I am not, but this racism--all racism, of course, but I'm speaking in the context of this thread--has shaped and continues to shape my own life in ways that I did not/do not want/like, according to values that I reject, and that are differently, but I would argue no less deeply personal than the ways in which racism has shaped and, as evidenced by this thread, continues to shape Tim's life as well. <<< Later in his post, Lucas asks me a question: >>That is, does the idea that (for the sake of argument--leaving aside the never-racially-innocent notion of assumption about the Yasusada author) a "white male north american" author created a Japanese poet also interact with your position that the originally selfless becomes invisible? What I mean is, can Yasusada be treated as a tribute to Japan, can Pound be read as writing tributes to China, instead of putting these acts of translation in terms of "yellowface" and "imperialism" and "stereotype"? Is the writer writing against racism--even if he or she is referring to racist discourse and, as Rich put it, "participating in racialized discourse"--always going to be turned somewhat invisible (or more to the point: viewed as Imperialist) as long as he or she is not from the culture in question?<< Since, again, I don't know Pound well enough or Yasusada at all (I was, in fact, going to post to ask someone to explain it to me), I can't answer this question in precisely the terms that Lucas asks, but here are some things that occur to me in response, half-assed as they might be: 1. It seems entirely possible to me that Pound was writing, in his own mind, and given his cultural context, tributes to China, the best that could have been done at the time. That does not mean that those tributes were not informed by imperialist or colonialist or racist values. 2. There is a difference between translating and speaking out against racism or sexism that I think it is important not to elide. Not, Lucas, that I think you are trying to; I just think this is an important point to make. The translator always faces the culture he is translating from, unless he or she is bilingual/bicultural, from what seems to me to be an irreconcilable position of otherness, and so while the translator might wish, on some level, to become invisible, that invisibility is always an impossibility. He or she is, by definition, creating a new text and he or she is its author as much as the author of the original, along with the original, is, for want of a better term, its originator. (I don't know if that distinction makes sense; it's one that just occurred to me now as I was writing.) Someone speaking out against racism, on the other hand, who is not the direct object of the racial hatred is not speaking from a similar position of otherness, because the racist values already exist within him or her, I would say by definition, simply by virtue of having grown up in a racist culture. And so that person's invisibility, if it is as I described it in my earlier post (and I may be wrong), is not the result of the desire to disappear into the opposition to racism, to be seen only as defending the people who are the objects of racial hatred, but rather--I think--of a desire on the part of the people he or she is calling on their racism to be able to keep themselves distant from their own racism. What do I mean by that?--and I have to register again my own discomfort at using myself as an example, or of talking about some third person as if I had not raised the question about myself. But okay, let's say that white person calls another white person on his or her racism. For the second white person really to acknowledge what the first one said would be to acknowledge on some level the systemic nature of white privilege, the institutionalized nature of racism, because the person who is being anti-racist cannot help but also be expressing, if not saying outright, if he or she is honest, that he or she has also internalized the racist values that he or she is speaking out against. In other words, if both of those people take the charge of racism seriously, the work they do, discussion they have, becomes one of "we are racist and how can we stop being that way" as opposed to "I am sorry I offended you [the people who are the object of the racism] and I will try not to do it anymore," which is a much safer place to be, I think, because the person who is the object of the racism can "forgive you" and offer you a kind of absolution in a way that the person who speaks out against racism cannot. I do think this is one of the reasons why most people who want to apologize for the racism in Andrew's poem or otherwise ameliorate the characterization of the poem as racist have been responding to Tim by name and not to me. If they can persuade him it is not racist, then that must mean it is not; and in those terms, only he, not I, can make such a pronouncement. Only he, in other words, can say, "I no longer feel myself to be the object of the racism I think/thought is/was expressed here." And if he were to be so persuaded, it would no longer matter what I thought; his change of mind would be proof enough that I was wrong. I'm not entirely sure I have answered your question, Lucas, but this was an interesting knot to think through. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: call for subs, eratio Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 9 eratio postmodern poetry welcomely invites submissions of such for its fourth issue details here: http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/contact.html home page here: http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com click on a letter to enter a page click on a diacritic sign to tour the eratio gallery works that resist context, that stand alone. the unforeseen deadline for submissions for issue four is july 31, 2004 send your best work (no, seriously) edited for real by gregory vincent st. thomasino 9 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:39:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada Comments: To: richard.j.newman@VERIZON.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every authentic translation is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily racist?). That exploitative violence is what Spicer is after in "after Lorca." Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese poetry or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China as a prop to develop ? Only in the latter case can one think of racism? Also, it seems to me, we are merging two different issues. If I remember correctly, John Yau's piece appeared in The American Poetry Review in response to Elliot Weinberger's modernist anthology. E's talk at The Poetry Project on the occasion of the publication of the same book elicited a very strong negative response also from Amiri Baraka. In Eliot's case and in the case of the poem discussed in this thread, the criticism is against a writer's own words: "why the Taiwanese...," etc. In my view, a poet is always responsible for his or her words, now and ever. Of course, the distinction between "poet" and "translator" is much more blurry, ambiguous than I made for rhetorical reason; but that is a blur one should confront directly. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:43:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck won the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker Tour Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor of Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:13:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Reeves Subject: racism, imperialism, classism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is using dialect/particular language communities' idiolects racist, classist, imperialist, etc? how about their language? does it matter what the intention or meaning of the poem is? how about use of history? creation myths? old legends? what if i write a poem about lower class folk than me? can this be written so it is not classist? i've wondered about all of this & wondering if it is possible for anyone to give a straight opinion with these broad examples. thought i'd give some made up examples... a reworking of a hindu story -- it seems okay to do greek, or latin, or certain white people stories, but using hte myths of anotehr culture (linked to religion or otherwise) is very...very.. odd. if i had written li-young lee's "persimmons" poem (assuming that were possible) would that be racist of me, to make such assumptions or assume another race's voice (i am white?) i can't think of another good one at this time. use of a white person of ebonics, "uncle remus" talk -- even small bits of it --in an intended satirical way, or in order to depict these people. i have NEVER seen this. and yet i feel like people who aren't racist are definately interested in other cultures, other dialects, etc... other religions. i just want to be careful with everything i write in the future, ya know? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:25:25 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: racism, imperialism, classism In-Reply-To: <20040707221311.HLSO1737.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michelle Reeves wrote: >>use of a white person of ebonics, "uncle remus" talk -- even small bits of it --in an intended satirical way, or in order to depict these people. i have NEVER seen this.<< This link is to a book called The Digital Hood, by Peter Rondinone, a white guy who wrote these stories in "black dialect," or at least his version thereof. I make no claims for the authenticity of the language or for the quality of the stories themselves, but it is an attempt to do what Michelle asks about in her post. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031218686X/qid=1089246186/sr=1 -1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5716069-1988623?v=glance&s=books Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:33:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: a fell swoop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed a fell swoop sondheim couldn't have done that much music, pictures, films, and writings. it was the aliens that did that. they aliens used him. a fell swoop. ma hade he cut off with snit hade pith and off and pith hade snit with off cut he hade ma sick cut off music ma hade split off lick pith hade pith lick off split hade snit music off cut did ma hade did cut off with snit hade pith and off and pith hade snit with off split he hade ma sick cut off sick ma hade split off lick pith hade pith lick off split hade snit music off cut did ma hade did cut off music snit hade pith and off and pith hade pith with off split he hade ma sick cut off sick ma hade he split off with pith hade pith lick off and hade snit music off cut did ma hade did cut off music snit hade and off lick pith hade pith with off split he hade ma sick cut off sick ma hade he split off with pith hade pith lick off and hade snit music off cut did hade hade did cut off music snit hade and off lick pith hade pith with off split he hade ma sick off cut did he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with with lick lick lick lick lick with with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music sick did he pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music sick did he he pith pith pith pith pith pith he did sick music with lick lick lick lick lick lick with music music hade prick hid tell fit in in that tail ruse flit pith lick with tell thick bu la la sand kith she fell bit music ma sand hid tell fit in in that cat ruse la snit with hit flat hid bu la la sand bu hid flat made with snit la thick cat that in in that tell thick sand ma music made fell she kith sand la la bu thick tell hit lick pith flit ruse cat that in in fit tell hid prick hade sick bit that she kith sand la la bu thick tell with and pith but flick tail fell in in fit flat she bu slit did off fit flat flick sand la la prick ruse cat it split cought kith flat fell in in fit flat flat bu bra he cut in tail ruse prick la la prick flick tail in cut he bra bu she flat fit in in fell flat kith cought split it cat ruse prick la la sand flick flat fit off did slit prick she flat fit in in fell tail flick but pith and with tell thick bu la la sand kith she that bit _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:27:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: that poetry should be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 that poetry is absimilation, it was always that could possibly have been the effort of contrast [unlike/unlike] that could have posited any usefulness for the sort of action poetry could. it is unreal. then, is not. and i always like to ask if no one is running then what then is running? what potentially poetry acts is a certain vermin to the general value i.e that of sucumbtion. smugasity. wormwood becomes wormword or wordwood, the inverted tendril that is hole in the venerable good word of the day. stanzas of previousity stand on their own two feet. was now isn't likened to meditation. digg. the they of stein, g. a beer filled genius. non-alchemical. all right this is silly no one ever said assimilation was ef you en. i don't agree with your thoughts but what you write seems real enough i almost want to believe it. yeah, yeah. you're mortified believe it or not how i tell you is not the same for the other you. you will read this unlike you who read it before. their are steinzas unlike what it is here this be a failure of an option to charge for the good of poetry and damn it if i haven't succeeded in making you believe it. -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:50:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: ** NYC Small Presses Needed ** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi all, to celebrate boog's 13th anniversary and kick-off the second season of our series at ACA Galleries, on Thursday Aug. 5, 13 NYC-based small press editors will discuss the origins and futures of their presses. As of now we have 11 presses taking part (listed below), but we still need two more. Please email me if you are interested in filling one of the open slots. We'll also have tables for the presses to sell their pubs. best, david Belladonna Books Fence Futurepoem Hanging Loose Press The Hat Lungfull Open 24 Hours Pompom Portable Press at YoYo Labs Tender Buttons Ugly Duckling/Loudmouth Collective -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:37:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunye's One Degree from Poetry World Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don't know if anybody else knows the young fillmaker, Cheryl Dunye ("Watermelon Woman" and that recent HBO special on women's prisons), but was my roommate in 1989. C ---------- >From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World >Date: Wed, Jul 7, 2004, 1:43 PM > > Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck won > the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker Tour > Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker > player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor of > Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunye's One Degree from Poetry World Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 apperently, my mother's ex-husband was married to the guy who cleaned the carpets of one fred flintstone who married everyone and their mother whose sister's boyfriend's mother's dog alice ate with at the restaurant Gary Busey's daughter's boyfriend's mother's daughter's sister's uncle's poodle dimitri befriended at a party where my sister's uncle frank's boyfriend's dry cleaner's mouse pad tony brought to mark twain's pen's lint's spec's molecule's atom's electron's birthday. what a small world. ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:37:59 -0800 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunye's One Degree from Poetry World Re: Don't know if anybody else knows the young fillmaker, Cheryl Dunye Re: ("Watermelon Woman" and that recent HBO special on women's prisons), Re: but was my roommate in 1989. Re: Re: C Re: Re: ---------- Re: >From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Re: >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Re: >Subject: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World Re: >Date: Wed, Jul 7, 2004, 1:43 PM Re: > Re: Re: > Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck won Re: > the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker Tour Re: > Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker Re: > player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor of Re: > Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: regedit swoop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed regedit swoop she with fell she off fit fit did fit flick bu _ (Alan strange ange ange do strange strange ange regedit -- tbyars swoop Devil that tell fell she off fit fit did flat flick thick bit Anse Sondheim) problem strange do strange strange ange do strange problem (Alan Anse bit thick tail flat did fit fit did she tail tell that Devil (Alan tbyars -- regedit ange strange strange do ange ange Sondheim) (Alan _ bu flick flat did fit fit off she fell with she 1. swoop regedit -- regedit ange strange strange do ange ange strange Sondheim) _ la but fit slit fit fit off prick in and kith Topics: fell do regedit tbyars ange strange strange thu problem strange ange 2. la pith in slit fit fit off prick in and sand Today's a thu -- problem thu strange strange thu tbyars -- thu a Today's sand and in prick off fit fit slit in pith la 2. ange strange problem thu strange strange ange tbyars regedit do fell Topics: kith with in prick off fit fit slit fit but la _ Sondheim) strange ange ange do strange strange ange regedit -- regedit swoop _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:25:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I will confess to being a bit exhausted by this thread, but I'll try to respond, though I fear fatigue is making my tone increasingly defensive. I realize I can't win on the issue of Yau and of Chang et al. If I try to distance myself from Yau I am still associated with his point of view and expected to defend him (or repudiate him); if I express approval of some of his opinions and those of Chang et al. I am accused of toeing the party line, assigned the status of "co-writer." If, as Lucas claims, Yau says that no one should ever read Pound, then obviously I wouldn't agree with that. If, as Lucas suggests, he was settling some kind of political score in a review that I haven't read then that's none of my affair. I've tried to explain what *I* mean by racism and imperialism; perhaps Yau simply uses the words differently. I suppose Lucas is right: this really is, and has been all along, about the politics of race in North America. Lucas gives us an image of an America in which political correctness has run amok--that bad old '80s and '90s world of campus speech codes and racial separatism; in this world, it would seem, "racist" and "imperialist" are far more threatening terms of abuse than racial slurs. In part I think this perception is due to the odd position of contemporary poetry: often nourished by the academy (although in constant agony over such connections) and generally wedded to left politics. The result is what I sometimes find to be a rather upside-down view of American politics: the fact that the academy is hypervigilant about issues of racism and sexism (though not always with real results) does not mean that the wider society behaves the same way, or that a charge of "racism" carries the same weight for a wider audience. That the self-flagellation of intellectuals and academics over race occasionally reaches the level of absurdity doesn't change the fact that racism and sexism are real-- that white men still earn more money than anyone else, for example, or that racial minorities receive far worse health care and education. So I hardly raise such issues lightly or without a sense of their political charge. There is a strong implication by Lucas that nearly any charge of racism or imperialism is irresponsible and likely to destroy someone's career and reputation. I see little evidence that this is the case; when it is, it's usually not because non-white people have gained power but because those currently in power are trying to fend off criticism--cf. Trent Lott's loss of the Senate leadership over statements perceived to be in support of segregation. But Lott has hardly been forced from office or even from a position of significant power, and other politicians who have made similar statements (e.g. Rep. Howard Coble, who some months ago pronounced the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII justified and desirable--a conclusion long ago discredited by the federal government and the courts) have suffered no ill effects whatsoever. In the more immediate case, I see no evidence that Andrew's reputation on this list has been destroyed by my critiques; after all, there have been more people rising to his defense than joining me in my objections. Nor do I see any evidence that the critique by Chang et al. of the Yasusada project has destroyed the reputation of that work; if anything, the controversy has increased the work's circulation and exposure. Lucas asks: <> "Motives," in this case, cannot be reduced to the explicit intentions of the authors. I did not base my interpretation of the motives of "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE" on my personal acquaintance with Andrew, but on the rhetoric and tone of the work and the way in which it was framed. That one can have the best intentions and yet produce work with all kinds of unintended consequences should surprise no one. In this discussion, for example, even if I regard my own motives as "pure" (whatever that might mean), I find that radically different motives are being projected onto my arguments, which is just a testament to the structure of the larger discourse into which they enter. Lucas asks: <> My association was not simply invented, but was based on the fact that the line "WHY DO THE TAIWANESE / run over dogs like nothing" is later followed by "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE / prepare meat in the gutter." I would call that careful reading and not arbitrary association. The point is one I have tried continuously to make: that these images participate in a larger, negatively valenced discourse about Asians, whether Andrew intended them to or not. Finally, Kent Johnson emphasizes the empathetic and sympathetic elements of the Yasusada project. That is certainly his prerogative. But I would still argue that Chang, Lew, Tabios, and Yau's critique provides a necessary counterpoint. Since Kent has invited me to go back and read Yasusada, I would invite him to go back and read my posts over the past few days. If he still believes after reading them that I am merely an ideological hack, intent on blindly repeating "rituals of conventionalized authorship," then so be it. Tim Yu http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: <8a.f1e5a01.2e1dc78a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murat wrote: >>When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every = authentic translation is to some extent exploitative (does that make it = necessarily racist?). Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a = previously absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in = Chinese poetry or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about = China as a prop to develop? Only in the latter case can one think of racism?<< I'd like to respond by laying out a scenario I am currently involved in. = I am in the process of producing a literary translation of Saadi's "The Gulistan." To my knowledge, mine will be the first such translation in English, post-1940, that will encompass selections from the entire work. = I speak some and understand a decent amount of conversational Farsi, but I neither read nor write the language, and I certainly have no command of = the language as it existed in the 13th century when Saadi wrote. I am using = as a trot Edward Rehatsek's 1880s translation of the entire work, which, I am given to understand by the people who hired me and by my reading, is generally recognized as the most accurate English-language translation = of the text that we have. In a sense, then, I am translating a 19th century British English translation that is not literary into 21st century = literary American English. (I know I am playing fast and loose with the term = literary here, but please bear with me.) I do have a copy of the original text = and access to informants, scholarly and otherwise--my wife, who is Iranian, = is one--who can read and translate it for me as necessary, but I have discovered that the Farsi text of the Gulistan that I was given is not = the same version that Rehatsek used when he did his translation; there are passages in the Rehatsek text that are not in the Farsi text that I = have, and vice versa. And so not only is my translation going to be a = misreading of a misreading, it is a misreading of a text that is a translation of = an original that is no longer considered authoritative, that is, in other words, considered now to be a misreading/misrepresentation of that = "actual" original manuscript. So there is a lot of textual and cultural = exploitation going on here, but I don=92t think exploitation in and of itself is = always bad, if by exploitation we mean to use something for one's own purpose. = It depends on what the purpose is, which is part of what Murat's point was = in his post, I think. The organization that hired me to do this translation is the = International Society for Iranian Culture, started by a man who is a former cultural attach=E9 to the Iranian mission to the UN. He is, as far as I know, and = I have some pretty authoritative information on this, not at all aligned = with the conservative forces in the Iranian government. His goal in starting = the organization is to make it possible for cultural interchange between = Iran and the US to take place under the political radar, so to speak, and one = the ways in which he wants to do this is to produce contemporary, = accessible, literary translations of some of the great works of Persian literature, which are, many of them, foundational works of world literature, in the sense that they are widely recognized as masterpieces. According to him, = he first approached Coleman Barks to do this work, but Barks turned him = down; he then approached a man named Dick Davis, who is a poet and is fluent = in Farsi, and who has in fact done quite a bit of translating from Farsi = into English, but Davis turned him down as well. He found me because a friend = of the guy he asked to put some feelers out knows me pretty well. I have no background in Persian literature, had not even heard of most of the = works I have been hired to translate, or their authors, before I agreed to take = on this project, but the guy who hired me made clear that he was more interested in finding a poet/writer who could produce the kind of text = he wanted in English than he was in working with someone who is fluent in = Farsi or who had, say, the kind of credentials that Barks has. (Though I have = no doubt he was disappointed when both Barks and Davis said no.) In any = event, he liked the samples that I did for him, and so he hired me to do the = work. (Lucas Klein will be posting an excerpt from the translation to cipherjournal.com, if anyone is interested, and another excerpt will be appearing in the next issue of Circumference.) So that is my situation. Now, here is a short sketch of what I have = learned about how Saadi and The Gulistan has been situated in Western/European culture. (My source for much of this information is John D. Yohannan's = two books, "The Poet Sa'di: A Persian Humanist" and "Persian Poetry in = England and America: A 200 Year History." During the Enlightenment, his text was used by intellectuals to demonstrate that, in fact, Muslims were not so different from Christians, a radical departure from the hostility with = which Muslims had been viewed prior to that. Jump next to the last quarter of = the eighteenth century, when Britain had become so deeply involved in the governance of India that it was necessary to bring the British East = Indian Company under the auspices of the crown. This move made Indian culture = and civilization, Yohannan's words, "a practical and direct concern of the general English public [and] since Persian was the language of the Mogul courts, it was almost a patriotic duty for Englishmen to cultivate it." = A tremendously focused effort to translate works of Persian literature = into English ensued, though now the point of the translation--and Saadi's = work was used throughout this effort--was to show how different the Indians = were from the British and so help British civil servants understand better = how to govern them. There was even a bowdlerized Gulistan produced for the use = of Christian children. English and American writers of the 19th century responded with great enthusiasm to the translations that were produced of Persian literature, both in their century and the prior one, and Saadi was a huge hit. = Emerson called The Gulistan a secular Bible and wrote an introduction to one of = the translations of the work; he also wrote a poem about Saadi; Thoreau = wrote about Saadi in his journal and found The Gulistan to be highly = influential; Byron called Saadi a Persian Catullus. This is the milieu in which Rehatsek, who was Hungarian, produced his English translation of The Gulistan and it is, in some sense, the = lineage of my own translation. So now, having gone through all that, this is what I want to say in = response to Murat's question, and it may be that I am taking the question in a direction other than he intended. My own translation is circumscribed by Rehatsek's in ways I am not even aware of, not only because I cannot = read the material and am not even a scholar of this material in English, but because linguistic and poetic choices are already limited by his biases. = To take a pretty obvious example, you lose in Rehatsek's translation all = the different verse forms Saadi employed; there is no efficient way for me = to reconstruct them, and so I have chosen to render the poetry--the work combines poetry and prose--into blank verse because, among other = reasons, it is the only form in English that I can handle with any facility that = begins to approach, to my ear anyway, the kind of solemnity that you hear when Persians read poetry in Farsi. But there are, I have no doubt, other = biases in the Rehatsek version that I am not aware, cultural biases, perhaps = racial ones, certainly religious ones--he employs Christian terminology and references to translate Muslim concepts and images--and I have no doubt = as well that his whole translation project was in some way informed by the British colonial project in India and the interest in things Persian = that it spawned. The parallel, in the US anyway, would be the idea now being = pushed in Congress by the right that international education at the university level ought to serve the primary purpose of providing the CIA, the = military, the FBI and other government agencies of all stripes with people = conversant in other language and cultures so that we, the US government, can = protect ourselves from "terrorists," further our interests overseas, and so on. = Was Rehatsek any more or less racist/colonialist/whatever than any other = person of his time? Who knows, but we would be fooling ourselves, as well as missing an opportunity to learn something, were we to assume that his = text was, because he was not an obvious racist/colonialist (and I don't know = this for a fact; like I said, I am no expert in this area), free of the colonialist influences that he could not have helped but be aware of = given when and where he lived. The same thing, it seems to me, will be true of my own translation. I am trying very hard as I work, for example, to remove some of the ways in = which Rehatsek Europeanizes Saadi's text. So, when possible, I preserve Farsi names for things and concepts that Rehatsek translated, often awkwardly = into English. But I would be fooling myself and my readers, I think, in a = very cynical way if I were to suggest that my translation absolutely does not somehow perpetuate Rehatsek's biases, racial, colonial, cultural or otherwise. Does that make my translation racist? Not if by racist you = mean a work that is intended to erase or otherwise denigrate Persian culture in = the interests of furthering my own cultural agenda, but is my translation = part of a tradition of translators who were in fact more interested in their = own cultural agenda than in the radical act of sympathy/empathy that someone else in this discussion characterized translation as? Well, yes, and to = say otherwise would, I think, be dishonest. There is a great deal more to say about this subject, and I am certainly = not an authority on the politics of translation, since this is the first translation project I have ever done. So I would be very glad to hear = what others have to say about these issues. And now, it's time for bed. Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:26:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Yellowface MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kent Johnson also sent me this poem, about (or already) to come out in Antennae. Kent asks: "Is this poem racist?" Lucas ORIENTALIST HAIBUN (with Cups of Sake Four) It is because what we say is unfinished, always, that we can say without fear. The gatekeepers themselves, in speaking back law, say only what they have been given to say by signs. It is always unfinished. Thinking of this I gathered courage, making prostrations. The land to the East or West of us is there because we are here, speaking of it. (My sister wrote that.) Anyway, when I arrived at the first gate, I was told I could not pass. The guards were dressed in coats of black scales, with half-moons of gold covering their mouths. They spoke in tongues from the West and told me to return there. Beyond their head-sets, sparks flew in the night across the wooden houses, and I imagined that those of the foreign community inside were shimmering and transparent so that their bones mingled as one with the tea-fires and the frozen flight of the cranes. (Awkward, but I am writing quickly here.) And then, by magic, Mack, the Western Guards became tethered to long and shiny poles of discourse (though it was dark and I couldn't quite see) and were spun round and round so that a breeze lightly scented with bream and salt cooled my face. I smashed the turtle's shell and passed boldly through the gate. You see, it was the thought of Witter Bynner that led me on. I desired my dust to be mingled with his, forever and forever and forever. I also thought of the following things, though I would never dare to speak them openly: The State of Hand Not Joined to Body The State of Being Perfectly Not Here The State of Disconsolate Thought of Wings The State of Myouka Writing "Hand Not Joined to Body" The State of Rose of the Snow Kimono The State of Poem Written on Throat of Turtle The State of Shikantaza as Loving Cunt Enfolding The State of Kissing Son on Loving Lips The State of Sons as Suicidal Aviators Exultant The State of Being a Staff or Whisk The State of Stillness in Self-Fulfilling Samadhi The State Where the Moon Swallowing Is Brought Forth Weary, I took a piss, making great steam in the Autumn grasses. Then, preparing ink on a large stone, I wrote: [xx] shungyo ya hito koso shirane kigi-no ame [xx] Which I choose to translate thus: [mourning his son he crosses the hills with a large sack of eggs] When I arrived at the second gate, Chuck, it was May, and all was in the State of Three Heads and Eight Arms as Rain on the Trees. The guard of this gate had the corpulent face and body of Amida, but I knew that was just a disguise. He spoke in hoarse whispers and in a language I could only understand by imagining. He told me to display wares in my lacquer-bone-poet-box, and I did so. He told me to ornately describe the Eastern Suburbs with their alleys full of squatting whores and peddlers, and I did this. He told me to squat thusly and shit in my beggar's hat and I did so. He told me to write one wonder-haiku on cicada husk's soundless cry, and I did this, his sword suspended in threat above. I wrote: Towa x ni x ikitashi x onna-no x koe x to x semi-no x ne x to Which I choose to translate thus: [my soul passes through those of others: hydragena exhibit] Thus, this apparition vanished, and I went deeper into the mandala, having no idea where I was headed (and admittedly half-wishing I had heeded the cautionary advice of my grad school advisors). Wide-eyed, I witnessed: The Room of Looking through a Bamboo Tube The Room of Scholars Who Count Letters The Room of Poets with Strings of Law Leading Back to Their Names The Room of the Theory of Five Ranks The Room of Mud Within Mud The Room of Merely Being "In the Mountains" The Room of Oneness Within Differentiation The Room of Udumbara in Shameless Flower The Room of "Life Streams Issue from Plum Blossoms" The Room of Everyday Rice-Eating Activity The Room of Sky with Palms Together The Room of Mind Moon Alone and Full I felt fear and trembling, I felt the insistent repetition of all phenomenal things, I felt an anxiety and dread of concepts that verged (is it possible to say it?) on the irony of Being itself, and I felt a sickness unto death. You see, Dick, I had come to the gate through which the masts of Foreign Ships are visible! It was like a forest after a great fire, or a city of people who have been burned to a crust but are still standing. And I realized that this was the Room of No Turning Back. The guard here was dressed in elegant suit. He both was and was not (if you can imagine that!), like the brittle sumi-e I had seen at Eihei-ji: a single Not-Thinking stroke bringing sudden form out of no-form. He appeared to me as an American executive from Toshiba, and he brandished a scroll of unfair treaties, all inscribed in the most delicate calligraphy. He said I could pass only should I beat him in Poetry-Duel-to-Death. "I go first," he growled, "and my poem is titled 'State of Siege.'" He read in rapid-fire bursts, his voice screeching as ten-thousand shikirichi, and through the great roar of rushing waters' sound, this is what I heard: shaving dace [...] now stomping [.........] town wall [....] place for gossip or [...] [.......]daughter's dream--silkworm dealers?[.......]but[..] But [......]market flooded. Why Pentium Chips if [............]waving fan--clay stove [..] [................] so [.....................] no, [................] Ah, Hiroshima's blessing [...] fast track is [.......] better and [.] for one thousand vats of nightsoil [.................] but legs spread for love-making [.........] while far away [.......] geisha expert [...] quick web-search for [..........] thirty seven Mexicans suffocated in freight car clawing eyes out [...............................................................] I was fearful and trembled at his fierce visage. A device for measuring time glowed with Oriental splendour on his wrist. Sparks flew in the night across the great wooden ships beyond. I knew now the foreigners had been waiting there, Jack, shimmering and transparent, for thousands and thousands of Springs. I dipped my brush and raised it slowly back, knowing death-poem in my bones, knowing the darkness there in the glistening point of it... And I wrote: xHyakuxxxsen-noxxxdokanxxitsumademoxxxxwarauxxxkareno-nox Which is untranslatable thus: [ ] --------------------------- And when I woke, drenched from the dream, it was my teacher, serene in Electric State of Coming Wonders, speaking to us in measured and instructional tones. And this is what I heard: "This paradox cannot be mediated, for it depends specifically on this: In attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread. The single individual is only the single individual. As [inaudible] as this single individual wants to express his absolute duty in the universal, becomes conscious of it in the universal, he recognizes that he is involved in a spiritual trial. [extended inaudible section] Do not be limited to the narrow views held by human beings. Even where there is no sun and moon, there is day and night." (I taped that.) He was a monk from Japan. He was vegetarian and ate his rice and things with chopsticks, Kent. And I spoke every Orientalist dream that came to me that sesshin, into the black hole of his succulent, papery ear. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: My book's in bookstores now! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Just wanted to let you know that Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems my first full-length book of poetry has just been released by Soft Skull Press and is now on bookshelves at independent bookstores near you. If you are in the New York City area you can find the book at the following locations: Downtown Shakespeare & Co. Booksellers 716 Broadway New York, NY 10003 Tel: 212-529-1330 http://www.shakeandco.com East Village Signed Copies at St. Mark's Bookshop 31 Third Avenue New York, NY 10003 Tel: 212-260-7853 Fax: 212-598-4950 http://www.stmarksbookshop.com West Village: Three Lives & Co. 154 West 10th Street New York, NY 10014 Tel: 212-741-2069 http://threelives.com/who.html Midtown: The Gotham Book Mart 41 West 47th Street New York City 10036 212-719-4448 After you read the book, let me know what you think! Best, Wanda -- Wanda Phipps available also at the Soft Skull site: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item and don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 02:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Fw: newpoem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:37:35 -0400 Subject: newpoem scr i a bin ( the black mass) - we put our hands to these dead we are born not of the buried but of these unburied dead - ch. olson LA PREFACE these dead/ they walk again within us slow poems lyrical etudes dramatic re-awaken//ings repeated stones falling from olympus (((((((({})))))))))){))}) it is this light that allows us to be born dead things in a time of war a time when there was never this to play (to) there has never been such a time (as this) i fool you into believing hold flame in hand take this key find the treasure if you can put it in your pocket & leave it is gold that tells a story tho it may not be an interesting one to tell. there is little space left between here & now. dalachinsky nyc 1:10 am - 1:20 am 7/7/04 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 03:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit chinese good ping pong ..... sara & leah israeli sisters tell lori 'bout chinesee hair dresser clip clip chop chop ..... lori & her chinese students bang & tang buy bling bling then drink vietnamese coffee .... gani zez buy china . com no listen big dope 4:00...i see you in my dreams....i see you next to me.....me see...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 03:59:36 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lang po .... i can't see the trees for the words .... a twitch not site .... 4:00-500....dawn..encore...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 04:19:51 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my mother used to ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she says he was the silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know of other extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. On 7 Jul 2004, furniture_ press wrote: > apperently, my mother's ex-husband was married to the guy who cleaned the > carpets of one fred flintstone who married everyone and their mother whose > sister's boyfriend's mother's dog alice ate with at the restaurant Gary > Busey's daughter's boyfriend's mother's daughter's sister's uncle's poodle > dimitri befriended at a party where my sister's uncle frank's boyfriend's dry > cleaner's mouse pad tony brought to mark twain's pen's lint's spec's > molecule's atom's electron's birthday. > > what a small world. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Stroffolino > Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:37:59 -0800 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunye's One Degree from Poetry World > > Re: Don't know if anybody else knows the young fillmaker, Cheryl Dunye > Re: ("Watermelon Woman" and that recent HBO special on women's prisons), > Re: but was my roommate in 1989. > Re: > Re: C > Re: > Re: ---------- > Re: >From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" > Re: >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Re: >Subject: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World > Re: >Date: Wed, Jul 7, 2004, 1:43 PM > Re: > > Re: > Re: > Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck > won > Re: > the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker > Tour > Re: > Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker > Re: > player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor > of > Re: > Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just > US$9.95 per year! > > Powered by Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU Subject: Re: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World Comments: To: "David A. Kirschenbaum" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quoting "David A. Kirschenbaum" : > Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck won > the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker Tour > Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker > player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor of > Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. > David, Katy's brother is Howard Lederer, widely considered to be the best poker player in the world. Anxiously awaiting a big "Poker for Poetry" fundraising event, -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:14:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: poet MARIA FAMA on the SDS, the Catholic Left & the Camden 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit interview with poet MARIA FAMA on the SDS the Catholic Left and the Camden 28 read what she has to say: http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:18:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Walking Theory #56 - 61 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's on my book list, and the university library has a copy, but I haven't yet gotten to it. I will, soon. Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Walking Theory #56 - 61 > Thank you, Joel. Your park site is looking good. > Did you get something from the Thomas A Clark book? > > Off to Oaxaca soon. > > Stephen V > > > > Stephen: > > > > #56 is dynamic. > > > > Best, > > Joel > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stephen Vincent" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:36 PM > > Subject: Walking Theory #56 - 61 > > > > > >> Walking Theory #56 - 61 > >> > >> Just up & various. As always appreciate your comments. > >> > >> http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > >> > >> Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:33:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Ben Affleck's One Degree from Poetry World In-Reply-To: <1089291389.40ed447d9123f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII is poker, then, a reasonable vocation for poets? oh, and tell us if Ben is any good. he sure wants to look like a shark, but is he. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: > Quoting "David A. Kirschenbaum" : > > > Don't know if anyone else saw the recent gossip item that Ben Affleck won > > the California State Poker Championship to qualify for the World Poker Tour > > Championship next April in Las Vegas. His coach was professional poker > > player Annie Duke, maiden name Lederer, sister of Katy Lederer, editor of > > Explosive Magazine/Spectacular Books. > > > > David, Katy's brother is Howard Lederer, widely considered to be the best poker > player in the world. > > Anxiously awaiting a big "Poker for Poetry" fundraising event, > > -m. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:47:31 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics ***CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS*** Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ** Sincere apologies for cross-posting ** ** Worldwide Call for Submissions ** LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics Guest Editor: Tim Peterson (tscotpeterson@hotmail.com) The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is inviting papers and artworks that deal with New Media Poetry and Poetics. This category includes multimedia digital works (image/text/sound) as examined through the lens of "writing," specifically any of those concerns central to poetry rather than narrative or prose: reader as active participant in the "ergodic" sense, the use of chance or automatism inherited from movements such as Oulipo (highlighting the literalized metaphor which automatism becomes here), and the complex relations between the author, reader, and computer-as-writer/reader which evolve from that interaction. Any work that foregrounds the medium as such ("codework" or related modes, for example) is also welcome. We would particularly like to emphasize the "poetics" of new media writing as well, that is, the point where aesthetics intersects with politics to create dynamic attempts at social change. LEA encourages international artists / academics / researchers / students to submit their proposals for consideration. We particularly encourage authors outside North America and Europe to send proposals for articles/gallery/artists statements. Proposals should include: - 300 word abstract / synopsis - A brief author biography - Any related URLs - Contact details Deadline for proposals: 15 Aug 2004 Please send proposals or queries to: Tim Peterson newmedia@astn.net and Nisar Keshvani LEA Editor-in-Chief lea@mitpress.mit.edu http://lea.mit.edu ******************************************************************************** LEA Information and URLs ------------------------------------------- Receive your FREE subscription to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac e-mail digest at http://mitpress.mit.edu/lea/e-mail -- just provide your email address, name, and password, and check off that you'd like to be added to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac monthly e-mail list to keep on top of the latest news in the Leonardo community. How to advertise in LEA? http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/isast/placeads.html#LEAads For a paid subscription (to become an ISAST member and access archives dating back to 1993): http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=4&tid=27&mode=p What is LEA? ------------- Established in 1993, the Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is the electronic arm of the pioneer art journal, Leonardo - Journal of Art, Science & Technology. The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (LEA), jointly produced by Leonardo, the International Society for the Arts, Sciences and Technology (ISAST) and published under the auspices of MIT Press is an electronic journal dedicated to providing a forum for those who are interested in the realm where art, science and technology converge. Content ------- This peer reviewed e-journal includes profiles of media arts facilities and projects, profiles of artists using new media, feature articles comprised of theoretical and technical perspectives; the LEA Gallery exhibiting new media artwork by international artists; detailed information about new publications in various media; and reviews of publications, events and exhibitions. Material is contributed by artists, scientists, educators and developers of new technological resources in the media arts. Mission ------- Since 2002, LEA formed a strategic alliance with fineArt forum - the Internet's longest running arts magazine. Through this partnership, LEA concentrates on adding new scholarship and critical commentary to the art, science and technology field, with LEA subscribers benefiting from the latest news, announcements, events, and job/educational opportunities through fAf's online news service. LEA's mission is to maintain and consolidate its position as a leading online news and trusted information filter while critically examining arts/science & technological works catering to the international CAST (Community of Artists, Scientist and Technologists) ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:49:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: SIMON PETTET & JACK COLLOM READING IN NEW YORK CITY On WEDNSDAY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SIMON PETTET & JACK COLLOM will be reading WEDNESDAY JULY 14, 7:30 PM at THE MEDICINE SHOW, WORD/PLAY 549 West 52nd Street (between 10th & 11th avenues) 3rd Floor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: <8a.f1e5a01.2e1dc78a@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Walking Theory #51 What are the limits of language? =B3No matter how much you write you will never understand the black man.=B2 1964, there I stood, notebook in hand, corner of McCallister & Fillmore: Stripped bare by the observed. ****** I suspect at the root of many of these issues is the one of manipulation. How much more does an artist/poet get from the subject of his desire when h= e or she asks for permission. What if Andrew in Taiwan raised his issues directly with the Taiwanese and made the poem/the work situation a collaborative one? In the way now that most photographers ask a person for permission before taking their photograph. In what ways does the "subject" open - or maybe become a partner in the process of creating the content - that is different than the artist as voyeurist, the thief with the quick eye, the thrill of penetrating and apprehending the object and going home to make art or poetry with it? Or conversely - as is so often true in the media biz - how might the subjects of the art manipulate (edit) the mode an= d content of the observer. Is there such a thing as an accurate epiphany in which the art work rises (burns) above the claims(including racial prejudices) of both artist and subject into something independent, something either called true or authentic and open to whatever interpretation any member of the public migh= t want to bring to it.??? Where or how does one distinguish between 'art' and 'real estate" issues? Does anyone - finally - own "it"? The poet as "linguistic judge and executioner" - how to say good-bye to all of that - Isn't that at the source of the anger, resentment and challenge here? (Let along the linguistic purveyors in the White House, Pentagon - "Enemy Combatants", etc., etc.) Briefly on Kent Johnson's poem - which I can't say (or say why) I ended up not wanting to read closely: In terms of contemporary "Asia" looking at itself, I recommend the most recent issue of Art in America which has some terrific images (among many kinds) of contemporary Chinese artists re-visiting, satirizing and variously turning upside down "Orientalist" and/or traditional motif(s). Talk about energy and having a great time shaking up the past! Wonderful stuff. Stephen V Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, > translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every authen= tic > translation > is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily racist?). >=20 > That exploitative violence is what Spicer is after in "after Lorca." >=20 > Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously > absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese > poetry > or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China as a = prop > to develop ? Only in the latter case can one think of racism? >=20 > Also, it seems to me, we are merging two different issues. If I remember > correctly, John Yau's piece appeared in The American Poetry Review in res= ponse > to > Elliot Weinberger's modernist anthology. E's talk at The Poetry Project o= n the > occasion of the publication of the same book elicited a very strong negat= ive > response also from Amiri Baraka. >=20 > In Eliot's case and in the case of the poem discussed in this thread, the > criticism is against a writer's own words: "why the Taiwanese...," etc. >=20 > In my view, a poet is always responsible for his or her words, now and ev= er. >=20 > Of course, the distinction between "poet" and "translator" is much more > blurry, ambiguous than I made for rhetorical reason; but that is a blur o= ne > should > confront directly. >=20 > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:08:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich: > I do not know Yau's work or the essay that and other material that Lucas and > Tim and others have been referring to and so I cannot take on the question > of whether Yau was doing what Lucas suggests he was doing, but I do think > it's important to say that calling a work from another period racist (or > sexist, or whatever) does not have to mean faulting it "for failing to meet > up to our current standards"--a formulation which suggests, I think, that > somehow what we (whoever "we" are) write now is not informed by racism and > sexism and other values that we might prefer to be able to disown. But I think in many cases that's exactly the subtext of what a lot of this kind of criticism does. Not always, of course--some critics are particularly deft--but usually I think a paper on, say, anti-semitism in Eliot or slavery in Dickens comes with an often unmentioned attitude of: look how much better we are than these people! I hate to sound like Harold Bloom, and depending on the focus I do indeed see the value of this kind of criticism. But as we all know, there's a lot of criticism, and the best is usually buried under a lot of pounds of paper. > There are two points here, I think. The first and perhaps more obvious one > is that we may be more conscious of how those values work now, and we might > expect a writer trying to do now what, say, Pound tried to do in Cathay > (whatever that was; if this is a bad example, please substitute an > appropriate one) to be more conscious of how > racism/imperialism/colonialism/pick-your-ism works in writing/translation, > but it is important to acknowledge, I think, that those values would still > be present in whatever he produced, in ways he could not control, and so if > the standard is to eliminate racism (or sexism, etc.), we are always already > failing and so the standard is out of reach. (I should be clear that I am > not being defeatist here; it's just that I don't believe in utopia. The > oppressive values that are part of our culture are part of our culture. The > best we can do is be vigilant in making sure we, as individuals and > institutions, don't hurt people as a result of them.) This is a good point to follow when writing today, but I guess in the end I'm still not completely sold on ideological and historical readings. May be as simple as that. > Which brings me to my second point. Lucas is right that one question we can > ask about the racism in a piece of work is what it tells us about ourselves > when we respond to it, but another question we can ask about it is, "How > did/does it shape our cultural vision of whomever the object of racism is?" Well put. > This is not just a question of personal response, though I do not want to > deny the importance of personal response. Assume, for the moment, that > whatever it means to call Pound's Cathay imperialist or racist is true. To > the degree that his text became a foundational text for others who wanted to > translate Chinese literature into English or write in what Pound's > translation foregrounded as the possibilities of writing in a "Chinese style > or of incorporating aspects of a Chinese poetic repertoire into English--to > the extent that the imperialism in his text went unexamined by those who > used his text, then their texts reproduced that imperialism and embedded it > even further into the cultural view of China embedded in English language > and literature. what's interesting is that the translations of Asian poetry that were popular before and after Pound's Cathay were, for the most part (Arthur Waley's astounding versions aside) full of Chinoiserie and Japonoiserie, or translations in the language of geisha girls and fortune-cookie monks (this may be anachronistic; I don't know when fortune cookies first appeared). It was this kind of imperialist prejudice--they're so different! they're so mystical!--that Pound was reacting against. He was the first translator into English who allowed the Chinese to speak plainly, the way we do. In John Yau's argument (sorry to bring this up again) this proves his imperialism--call it takeism--because the imperialists went out and conquered and brought back whatever they wanted. So while a certain kind of imperialism may have gone unexamined, embedding it even further into the cultural view of China, it was simultaneously an embodiment of its own examination of imperialism, trying to dislodge it from English language and literature. > (This may apply only to the Englishes of the US and Britain > or only the US; I am not sure, but I think the point is clear.) And so there > is a level at which to call a work racist is not to dismiss it for failing > to live up to the progressive anti-racist standards we like to think we hold > ourselves to now--though I will not deny it is entirely possible to use a > charge of racism to invalidate a work's claim to legitimacy--but it is > rather to use what we understand now about how racism or imperialism works > to go back and look at how the work functioned within the culture where it > was produced. And I think this second way of asking questions about the > racism of a text produced in an earlier time gets lost in what seems to me > to be Lucas' focus on personal/individual responses. I can see this. But I'm still wary of the accusatory tone of much of this kind of criticism. > 1. It seems entirely possible to me that Pound was writing, in his own mind, > and given his cultural context, tributes to China, the best that could have > been done at the time. That does not mean that those tributes were not > informed by imperialist or colonialist or racist values. okay. Again, I think we have to deal with the sticky issue of the author: how much credit do we give it, and to what ends? (this is probably not a question to be answered now). > 2. There is a difference between translating and speaking out against racism > or sexism that I think it is important not to elide. Not, Lucas, that I > think you are trying to; I just think this is an important point to make. your point is a good one. I was, however, consciously using your question for different ends in asking if the translator--even or especially when trying to counteract racism (I believe that almost any act of translation is an act towards world peace)--is always open to attacks such as these. > In other words, if both of those [indirectly affected] people take the charge of racism > seriously, the work they do, discussion they have, becomes one of "we are > racist and how can we stop being that way" as opposed to "I am sorry I > offended you [the people who are the object of the racism] and I will try > not to do it anymore," which is a much safer place to be, I think, because > the person who is the object of the racism can "forgive you" and offer you a > kind of absolution in a way that the person who speaks out against racism > cannot. also well put. > I do think this is one of the reasons why most people who want to apologize > for the racism in Andrew's poem or otherwise ameliorate the characterization > of the poem as racist have been responding to Tim by name and not to me. If > they can persuade him it is not racist, then that must mean it is not; and > in those terms, only he, not I, can make such a pronouncement. Only he, in > other words, can say, "I no longer feel myself to be the object of the > racism I think/thought is/was expressed here." And if he were to be so > persuaded, it would no longer matter what I thought; his change of mind > would be proof enough that I was wrong. A good point, and a call for serious introspection! Murat: > When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, > translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every authentic translation > is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily racist?). exploitative is probably not necessarily racist, but they're damn similar, aren't they? So I wonder how this interacts with my belief that translation is an act towards world peace. I mean, it's a pretty grand sentiment, but if we all read the Qu'uran we're be more inclined to understand Islamic viewpoints, wouldn't we? When I was growing up I knew my great-grandmother was Russian and therefore Russia could not be the Evil Empire (nevermind that she was a White Russian who fled the communists--this was a subtlety lost on me then); I'm sure I would have had a similar view if I had read Tolstoy at an age where I couldn't distinguish between different political regimes. Okay, that seems particularly unlikely. But nonetheless I endorse the political possibilities of the internationalism that translation both inspires and requires. Which is not to say that I disagree about translation requiring a misreading. > That exploitative violence is what Spicer is after in "after Lorca." > > Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously > absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese poetry > or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China as a prop > to develop ? Only in the latter case can one think of racism? Pound's translations from the Chinese--for all his liberties, for all his howlers--made possible a literalism previously unimaginable. Because he "broke the pentameter" and disgarded the rhyme scheme, he was able to follow the grammar and pace of the Chinese poetic line. This hadn't been done before, and was done afterwards with greater success because of translators who at once followed Pound's model and also knew the language better. And that's what Eliot meant when he called Pound "the inventor of Chinese poetry for our time". He saw then that people would follow him. It's hard for me to see this as racist, because it was a movement against an earlier prescription of how to translate Chinese poetry. On the other hand, translations of classical Chinese poetry into English by Chinese writers (I do not count Wai-lim Yip, Yun Huangte, or most other Western academics raised in China) do indeed read as if they were done in 1840. I find them unreadable, heavy-stomping and contrived, full of misreadings and textual violations. But it's hard--damned near impossible--to call them racist. > Also, it seems to me, we are merging two different issues. If I remember > correctly, John Yau's piece appeared in The American Poetry Review in response to > Elliot Weinberger's modernist anthology. E's talk at The Poetry Project on the > occasion of the publication of the same book elicited a very strong negative > response also from Amiri Baraka. Baraka's negative response to Weinberger was unrelated, and had little to do with race, more to do with revolution. Quite the contrary, inclusion of Baraka in the anthology was one of the pegs on which Yau managed to hang his accusation of Weinberger's racism (he said that he could only handle the image of the angry black man, so his anthology included only two black men--Baraka and Langston Hughes--both ranting). Oh, there's so much of Yau's article that deserved to be laughed out of court. > In my view, a poet is always responsible for his or her words, now and ever. this is the clearest and closest we've come to taking a stake in authorship so far! I have caveats and disagreements, but that's for a different thread. > Of course, the distinction between "poet" and "translator" is much more > blurry, ambiguous than I made for rhetorical reason; but that is a blur one should > confront directly. exactly. For instance, what about a translator's responsibility for his words? Michelle: your questions are too broad for me to wrap my brain around at this hour (1:16 in Beijing), but I will say this: > a reworking of a hindu story -- it seems okay to do greek, or latin, or certain white people stories, but using hte myths of anotehr culture (linked to religion or otherwise) is very...very.. odd. I'd love to read it, and if you write one, please submit it to www.CipherJournal.com. > use of a white person of ebonics, "uncle remus" talk -- even small bits of it --in an intended satirical way, or in order to depict these people. i have NEVER seen this. and yet i feel like people who aren't racist are definately interested in other cultures, other dialects, etc... other religions. Unless I'm mistaken, "Uncle Remus" was written by a white man. Yes no? I mean, Faulkner might be another example, but as racism in him is hardly what we can call admirable (W. E. B. Du Bois challenged him to a debate on segregation--he declined), I think he might be best left alone. Although, some of Faulkner's black characters are the most interesting he wrote. Rich, again: >>>> I'd like to respond by laying out a scenario I am currently involved in. <<<< Your method of translation is pretty much the same as Kenneth Rexroth's method of translating Japanese and Chinese. Reworking earlier English versions, cribs, and so on, with a small but important knowledge of the language and a native informant or two as well. This method may be even more idealistic than a general translator's, who comes from a knowledge of the original before (usually) deciding to transmit that knowledge into another language. >>> English and American writers of the 19th century responded with great enthusiasm to the translations that were produced of Persian literature, both in their century and the prior one, and Saadi was a huge hit. Emerson called The Gulistan a secular Bible and wrote an introduction to one of the translations of the work; he also wrote a poem about Saadi; Thoreau wrote about Saadi in his journal and found The Gulistan to be highly influential; Byron called Saadi a Persian Catullus. <<<< this is a true testament to the power of translation! I don't care about the imperialist history of finding a translator for Persian literature as much as I care about other minds being able to access--even if just a little bit--part of the depths of another culture. >>> But I would be fooling myself and my readers, I think, in a very cynical way if I were to suggest that my translation absolutely does not somehow perpetuate Rehatsek's biases, racial, colonial, cultural or otherwise. Does that make my translation racist? Not if by racist you mean a work that is intended to erase or otherwise denigrate Persian culture in the interests of furthering my own cultural agenda, but is my translation part of a tradition of translators who were in fact more interested in their own cultural agenda than in the radical act of sympathy/empathy that someone else in this discussion characterized translation as? Well, yes, and to say otherwise would, I think, be dishonest. <<<< but Rich, don't you think that you're placing a grand assumption on Rehatsek's person by noting his biases? I'd never heard of him before you alerted me, but isn't it possible that he, like you, took on this task of translation for any number of reasons, and that perhaps, like you, racial, colonial, cultural, and other biases were unimportant? Granted, you have his language, his force-fitting of Muslim into Christian terminology, his lawnmowering of verse forms, and so on. But perhaps the ends justify the means: his work inspired Thoreau. And I think that is as much part of the heritage of your translation as anything else. And maybe I'm naive. But I'm such a cynic in so many other ways, can't I have this one? Lucas ________________________________________ "There are two ways of knowing, under standing and over bearing. The first is called wisdom. The second is called winning arguments." --Kenneth Rexroth Lucas Klein LKlein@cipherjournal.com 11 Pearl Street New Haven, CT 06511 ph: 203 676 0629 www.CipherJournal.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:19:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Also, for those of you who can get there, an astonishing show of young Chinese photographers, very urban, very non-"orientalist," up now at the Centro Cultural in Tijuana. Another reason to cross the border. Mark >Briefly on Kent Johnson's poem - which I can't say (or say why) I ended up >not wanting to read closely: In terms of contemporary "Asia" looking at >itself, I recommend the most recent issue of Art in America which has some >terrific images (among many kinds) of contemporary Chinese artists >re-visiting, satirizing and variously turning upside down "Orientalist" >and/or traditional motif(s). Talk about energy and having a great time >shaking up the past! Wonderful stuff. > >Stephen V >Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, > > translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every > authentic > > translation > > is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily racist?). > > > > That exploitative violence is what Spicer is after in "after Lorca." > > > > Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously > > absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese > > poetry > > or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China as > a prop > > to develop ? Only in the latter case can one think of racism? > > > > Also, it seems to me, we are merging two different issues. If I remember > > correctly, John Yau's piece appeared in The American Poetry Review in > response > > to > > Elliot Weinberger's modernist anthology. E's talk at The Poetry Project > on the > > occasion of the publication of the same book elicited a very strong > negative > > response also from Amiri Baraka. > > > > In Eliot's case and in the case of the poem discussed in this thread, the > > criticism is against a writer's own words: "why the Taiwanese...," etc. > > > > In my view, a poet is always responsible for his or her words, now and > ever. > > > > Of course, the distinction between "poet" and "translator" is much more > > blurry, ambiguous than I made for rhetorical reason; but that is a blur one > > should > > confront directly. > > > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:19:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada Comments: To: richard.j.newman@VERIZON.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Richard, Thank you for your very thoughtful response. That a translation satisfies a=20 need in the host language (or culture), to me, is indubitable. A translator=20 should acknowledge that. Even the cultural attache who commissioned you is "= more=20 interested in finding a poet/writer who could produce the kind of text he=20 (italics my own) wanted in English than he was in working with someone who i= s=20 fluent in Farsi." Important translations, such as The King James Bible or Chaucer's major poem= s=20 or Pound's The Seafarer, are integral to the social, political and poetic=20 arguments of their time. It is interesting to compare what King James's vers= ion=20 finally retains and what discards (misreads) from the Lutheran version, whic= h=20 is itself based on an earlier Greek text. Rehatsek's Sadi translations, I=20 suppose, belong to the political climate and purposes of 19th century Englan= d. My own "Eda: An Anthology Of Contemporary Turkish Poetry" is, from one angle= ,=20 a poetic manifesto for a new kind of poetry in American poetry. On the other= =20 hand, I am asked by a Lebanese newspaper (Daily Star) to write an essay on=20 contemporary Turkish poetry -using the writing of the anthology as a basis-=20= to=20 discuss Turkey's place in contemporary Middle East. Is Turkey an Asiatic=20 (Islamic) or a European country, a question looming around the war in Iraq a= nd about=20 which Turkish poetry and the antholgy have a lot say, particularly as=20 subtexts.=20 The best translations are always polemical trying to change (misread?) their= =20 times. In that sense chains of translations constitute a single text (what=20 Benjamin calls ideal language), a continuum. Where is the "original" language in all that, Hebrew, Aramaic, Persian,=20 Turkish, Chinese? An elusive there. But, as in photography, this thereness i= s=20 essential. One can misread it, distort it, fragment it; but that contact is=20= the=20 source of all energy. Murat There is one issue I am uncomfortable about: not knowing=20 In a message dated 07/08/04 1:45:43 AM, richard.j.newman@VERIZON.NET writes: > Murat wrote: >=20 > >>When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, > translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every authent= ic > translation is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily > racist?). >=20 > Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously > absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese > poetry or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China > as a prop to develop? Only in the latter case can one think of racism?<< >=20 > I'd like to respond by laying out a scenario I am currently involved in. I > am in the process of producing a literary translation of Saadi's "The > Gulistan." To my knowledge, mine will be the first such translation in > English, post-1940, that will encompass selections from the entire work. I > speak some and understand a decent amount of conversational Farsi, but I > neither read nor write the language, and I certainly have no command of th= e > language as it existed in the 13th century when Saadi wrote. I am using as= a > trot Edward Rehatsek's 1880s translation of the entire work, which, I am > given to understand by the people who hired me and by my reading, is > generally recognized as the most accurate English-language translation of > the text that we have. In a sense, then, I am translating a 19th century > British English translation that is not literary into 21st century literar= y > American English. (I know I am playing fast and loose with the term litera= ry > here, but please bear with me.) I do have a copy of the original text and > access to informants, scholarly and otherwise--my wife, who is Iranian, is > one--who can read and translate it for me as necessary, but I have > discovered that the Farsi text of the Gulistan that I was given is not the > same version that Rehatsek used when he did his translation; there are > passages in the Rehatsek text that are not in the Farsi text that I have, > and vice versa. And so not only is my translation going to be a misreading > of a misreading, it is a misreading of a text that is a translation of an > original that is no longer considered authoritative, that is, in other > words, considered now to be a misreading/misrepresentation of that "actual= " > original manuscript. So there is a lot of textual and cultural exploitatio= n > going on here, but I don=E2=80=99t think exploitation in and of itself is=20= always > bad, if by exploitation we mean to use something for one's own purpose. It > depends on what the purpose is, which is part of what Murat's point was in > his post, I think. >=20 > The organization that hired me to do this translation is the International > Society for Iranian Culture, started by a man who is a former cultural > attach=C3=A9 to the Iranian mission to the UN. He is, as far as I know, an= d I > have some pretty authoritative information on this, not at all aligned wit= h > the conservative forces in the Iranian government. His goal in starting th= e > organization is to make it possible for cultural interchange between Iran > and the US to take place under the political radar, so to speak, and one t= he > ways in which he wants to do this is to produce contemporary, accessible, > literary translations of some of the great works of Persian literature, > which are, many of them, foundational works of world literature, in the > sense that they are widely recognized as masterpieces. According to him, h= e > first approached Coleman Barks to do this work, but Barks turned him down; > he then approached a man named Dick Davis, who is a poet and is fluent in > Farsi, and who has in fact done quite a bit of translating from Farsi into > English, but Davis turned him down as well. He found me because a friend o= f > the guy he asked to put some feelers out knows me pretty well. I have no > background in Persian literature, had not even heard of most of the works=20= I > have been hired to translate, or their authors, before I agreed to take on > this project, but the guy who hired me made clear that he was more > interested in finding a poet/writer who could produce the kind of text he > wanted in English than he was in working with someone who is fluent in Far= si > or who had, say, the kind of credentials that Barks has. (Though I have no > doubt he was disappointed when both Barks and Davis said no.) In any event= , > he liked the samples that I did for him, and so he hired me to do the work= . > (Lucas Klein will be posting an excerpt from the translation to > cipherjournal.com, if anyone is interested, and another excerpt will be > appearing in the next issue of Circumference.) >=20 > So that is my situation. Now, here is a short sketch of what I have learne= d > about how Saadi and The Gulistan has been situated in Western/European > culture. (My source for much of this information is John D. Yohannan's two > books, "The Poet Sa'di: A Persian Humanist" and "Persian Poetry in England > and America: A 200 Year History." During the Enlightenment, his text was > used by intellectuals to demonstrate that, in fact, Muslims were not so > different from Christians, a radical departure from the hostility with whi= ch > Muslims had been viewed prior to that. Jump next to the last quarter of th= e > eighteenth century, when Britain had become so deeply involved in the > governance of India that it was necessary to bring the British East Indian > Company under the auspices of the crown. This move made Indian culture and > civilization, Yohannan's words, "a practical and direct concern of the > general English public [and] since Persian was the language of the Mogul > courts, it was almost a patriotic duty for Englishmen to cultivate it." A > tremendously focused effort to translate works of Persian literature into > English ensued, though now the point of the translation--and Saadi's work > was used throughout this effort--was to show how different the Indians wer= e > from the British and so help British civil servants understand better how=20= to > govern them. There was even a bowdlerized Gulistan produced for the use of > Christian children. >=20 > English and American writers of the 19th century responded with great > enthusiasm to the translations that were produced of Persian literature, > both in their century and the prior one, and Saadi was a huge hit. Emerson > called The Gulistan a secular Bible and wrote an introduction to one of th= e > translations of the work; he also wrote a poem about Saadi; Thoreau wrote > about Saadi in his journal and found The Gulistan to be highly influential= ; > Byron called Saadi a Persian Catullus. >=20 > This is the milieu in which Rehatsek, who was Hungarian, produced his > English translation of The Gulistan and it is, in some sense, the lineage=20= of > my own translation. >=20 > So now, having gone through all that, this is what I want to say in respon= se > to Murat's question, and it may be that I am taking the question in a > direction other than he intended. My own translation is circumscribed by > Rehatsek's in ways I am not even aware of, not only because I cannot read > the material and am not even a scholar of this material in English, but > because linguistic and poetic choices are already limited by his biases. T= o > take a pretty obvious example, you lose in Rehatsek's translation all the > different verse forms Saadi employed; there is no efficient way for me to > reconstruct them, and so I have chosen to render the poetry--the work > combines poetry and prose--into blank verse because, among other reasons,=20= it > is the only form in English that I can handle with any facility that begin= s > to approach, to my ear anyway, the kind of solemnity that you hear when > Persians read poetry in Farsi. But there are, I have no doubt, other biase= s > in the Rehatsek version that I am not aware, cultural biases, perhaps raci= al > ones, certainly religious ones--he employs Christian terminology and > references to translate Muslim concepts and images--and I have no doubt as > well that his whole translation project was in some way informed by the > British colonial project in India and the interest in things Persian that=20= it > spawned. The parallel, in the US anyway, would be the idea now being pushe= d > in Congress by the right that international education at the university > level ought to serve the primary purpose of providing the CIA, the militar= y, > the FBI and other government agencies of all stripes with people conversan= t > in other language and cultures so that we, the US government, can protect > ourselves from "terrorists," further our interests overseas, and so on. Wa= s > Rehatsek any more or less racist/colonialist/whatever than any other perso= n > of his time? Who knows, but we would be fooling ourselves, as well as > missing an opportunity to learn something, were we to assume that his text > was, because he was not an obvious racist/colonialist (and I don't know th= is > for a fact; like I said, I am no expert in this area), free of the > colonialist influences that he could not have helped but be aware of given > when and where he lived. >=20 > The same thing, it seems to me, will be true of my own translation. I am > trying very hard as I work, for example, to remove some of the ways in whi= ch > Rehatsek Europeanizes Saadi's text. So, when possible, I preserve Farsi > names for things and concepts that Rehatsek translated, often awkwardly in= to > English. But I would be fooling myself and my readers, I think, in a very > cynical way if I were to suggest that my translation absolutely does not > somehow perpetuate Rehatsek's biases, racial, colonial, cultural or > otherwise. Does that make my translation racist? Not if by racist you mean= a > work that is intended to erase or otherwise denigrate Persian culture in t= he > interests of furthering my own cultural agenda, but is my translation part > of a tradition of translators who were in fact more interested in their ow= n > cultural agenda than in the radical act of sympathy/empathy that someone > else in this discussion characterized translation as? Well, yes, and to sa= y > otherwise would, I think, be dishonest. >=20 > There is a great deal more to say about this subject, and I am certainly n= ot > an authority on the politics of translation, since this is the first > translation project I have ever done. So I would be very glad to hear what > others have to say about these issues. >=20 > And now, it's time for bed. >=20 > Rich Newman >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:05:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Suspect Thoughts #13: Body Language In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Suspect Thoughts: A Journal of Subversive Writing Issue 13--Body Language--is now online. Guest-edited by Dodie Bellamy. http://www.suspectthoughtspress.com/main.htm Featuring fiction, poetry, essays, and art by Steve Abee, Elliot Andersen, Neelanjana Banerjee, Josh Bayer, Julia Bloch, Diana Cage, Dennis Cooper, Margaret Crane, Julia Croon, Sam D'Allesandro, Trinie Dalton, kari Edwards, d.g. eng, Mark Ewert, Bob Flanagan, Lisa Freeman, Robert Gluck, Aracely Gonzalez, Matt Greene, Doug Heise, Joshua Hoobler, Colter Jaconsen, Kevin Killian, Derek McCormack, Casey McKinney, Yedda Morrison, Aaron Nielsen, Sam Ott, Lara Parker, Brian Pera, Sheree Rose, Camille Roy, Milly Sanders, Cedar Sigo, Eleni Stecopoulos, Larry Sultan, Eileen Tabios, Joel Barraquiel Tan, Matias Viegener, Shoshana von Blankensee, and Stephanie Young. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:27:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Blackbox submissions closed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Once, again, thanks to all who contributed to the summer gallery. I've already received more good work than I can use. Look for the announcement re: the Fall gallery sometime in October. The latest Blackbox is now online. Go to WilliamJamesAustin.com, then follow the Blackbox link. Then "scroll" through the galleries until you reach the summer installment. Of course there is nothing to stop your enjoying the other galleries on your way. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met and got to know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she was also a writer and was Anais Nin's neice. Layne ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my mother used to ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she says he was the silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know of other extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:49:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Reeves Subject: Re: Yellowface MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Kent Johnson also sent me this poem, about (or already) to come out in > Antennae. > > Kent asks: "Is this poem racist?" > > Lucas > > > Why don't you tell me what you think? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:42:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: norma cole and fanny howe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi all, anyone have either norma's or fanny's addresses (electronic or otherwise)? thanks much -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:04:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World In-Reply-To: <004901c46542$42a2d0f0$1702a8c0@whiteowl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. Hugh Steinberg --- Layne Russell wrote: > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > and got to > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > was also a > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > Layne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > mother used to > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > says he was the > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > of other > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:23:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D.H.Lawrence knew my grandmother - you can check this out - there's a Mrs Bircumshaw in one of his short stories. I also used to be friends with Sean O' Casey's granddaughter and went to her wedding in Hackney in 1988 or 89 and met O'Casey's widow. (Grin) Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Steinberg" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:04 AM Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. Hugh Steinberg --- Layne Russell wrote: > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > and got to > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > was also a > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > Layne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > mother used to > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > says he was the > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > of other > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ** Sincere apologies for cross-posting ** ** Worldwide Call for Submissions ** LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics Guest Editor: Tim Peterson (tscotpeterson@hotmail.com) The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is inviting papers and artworks that deal with New Media Poetry and Poetics. This category includes multimedia digital works(image/text/sound) as examined through the lens of "writing," specifically any of those concerns central to poetry rather than narrative or prose: reader as active participant in the "ergodic" sense, the use of chance or automatism inherited from movements such as Oulipo (highlighting the literalized metaphor which automatism becomes here), and the complex relations between the author, reader, and computer-as-writer/reader which evolve from that interaction. Modes of work that foreground the digital medium (such as "codework") are also welcome. We would particularly like to emphasize the "poetics" of new media writing as well, that is, the point where aesthetics intersects with politics to create dynamic attempts at social change. LEA encourages international artists / academics / researchers / students to submit their proposals for consideration. We particularly encourage authors outside North America and Europe to send proposals for articles/gallery/artists statements. Proposals should include: - 300 word abstract / synopsis - A brief author biography - Any related URLs - Contact details Deadline for proposals: 15 Aug 2004 Please send proposals or queries to: Tim Peterson newmedia@astn.net and Nisar Keshvani LEA Editor-in-Chief lea@mitpress.mit.edu http://lea.mit.edu ******************************************************************************** LEA Information and URLs ------------------------------------------- Receive your FREE subscription to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac e-mail digest at http://mitpress.mit.edu/lea/e-mail -- just provide your email address, name, and password, and check off that you'd like to be added to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac monthly e-mail list to keep on top of the latest news in the Leonardo community. How to advertise in LEA? http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/isast/placeads.html#LEAads For a paid subscription (to become an ISAST member and access archives dating back to 1993): http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=4&tid=27&mode=p What is LEA? ------------- Established in 1993, the Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is the electronic arm of the pioneer art journal, Leonardo - Journal of Art, Science & Technology. The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (LEA), jointly produced by Leonardo, the International Society for the Arts, Sciences and Technology (ISAST) and published under the auspices of MIT Press is an electronic journal dedicated to providing a forum for those who are interested in the realm where art, science and technology converge. Content ------- This peer reviewed e-journal includes profiles of media arts facilities and projects, profiles of artists using new media, feature articles comprised of theoretical and technical perspectives; the LEA Gallery exhibiting new media artwork by international artists; detailed information about new publications in various media; and reviews of publications, events and exhibitions. Material is contributed by artists, scientists, educators and developers of new technological resources in the media arts. Mission ------- Since 2002, LEA formed a strategic alliance with fineArt forum - the Internet's longest running arts magazine. Through this partnership, LEA concentrates on adding new scholarship and critical commentary to the art, science and technology field, with LEA subscribers benefiting from the latest news, announcements, events, and job/educational opportunities through fAf's online news service. LEA's mission is to maintain and consolidate its position as a leading online news and trusted information filter while critically examining arts/science & technological works catering to the international CAST (Community of Artists, Scientist and Technologists) ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:02:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Usual \need work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Usual I hope you read this. I really hope you read this. I'll make a pastiche for you at the end. You'll be rewarded, entertained by it. But in the meantime, I've lost the job I had scoring Graduate Record Exam essays. I have no idea why; it might well be the result of downsizing (we all had to take a cut in salary), and I did take off weeks for the West Virginia residency (but the job was part-time and ad hoc anyway). The downsizing email simply said that one knew one could be let go at any time, without reason. I've applied for unemployment, but since I had to have unemploy- ment with the job (it never paid enough), I doubt I can get it at this point. So if you know of any work, telecommuting or otherwise, part- time or full-time, in the areas of test evaluation, text evaluation, teaching, editing, copy-editing, please let me know. Of course I can get references, etc. Thank you for reading this. The pleasure is below. - Alan below. The reading you Thank you for this. is Alan I I this. for You'll by in meantime, I've lost I've meantime, in by be the for a I'll this. I'll make pastiche at be it. I've had essays. idea well of (we all had had (we of be might idea I Record Graduate scoring scoring Graduate Exam I why; be (we a I for residency job and ad hoc hoc ad part-time the Virginia for take I salary), in in salary), and take the (but and downsizing one be time, I've unemployment, but since since but for reason. time, go could one said simply simply said that one let time, for had the enough), can this if you know know you So this get doubt paid (it the unemployment unemployment with the never I get So any part- in evaluation, teaching, please me know. know. know. let editing, evaluation, test the or part- otherwise, or otherwise, part- or areas text copy-editing, Of references, reading is Alan is this. for etc. references, get references, etc. you this. below. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:06:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ch=E1vez=20Assassin=20Acts=20Out=20In=20New=20Yor?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?k=20?= Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Click here: The Assassinated Press=20 http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Ch=E1vez Assassin Acts Out In New York, Calls Herself "Willing=20 Geopolitical Cunt", Receives More U.S. Funding For Felonious Performance=20 Art: Roger Noriega: "Don't Forget Venezuela's Got Big Time Oil Too And Hugo=20 Chavez Gives Us The Perfect Excuse To Take It.": Cheney Calls Chavez's Programs To Help The Poor "Wasteful And Misdirected": Army Of U.S. Financed International Puppets Join Together To Form First=20 Transnational Political Party---The 'Geppettocrats' Named After The=20 World's Most Famous Puppeteer Whose Creation's Nose Grew Every Time It Lied: The Moral 'Nose Jobs' Of Pat Robertson And Billy Graham Get A Boost by Kip Upwith =20 They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose.=20 ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in=20 the=20 sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful=20 language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or=20 hypocritical,=20 whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating= =20 impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poure= d=20 forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter= =20 house. =20 One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first=20 giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:43:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lucas Klein Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [this was meant to go ahead of the response I posted earlier, with replies to Rich, Murat, and Michelle. I split the email into two for manageable length, but the emailer only delivered the second one] Timothy: I think you're right, fatigue is making you sound more & more defensive. I don't disagree with almost anything you say in this post, though, except that it might do us all some good to look back at some of the things you wrote in your first response to Andrew's poem: >>>> Must we really do this again? Is it not possible for you to express yourself without leaning on some kind of Asian stereotype? <<<< and >>>> Again, I have to say I'm disappointed with the extent to which remarks like these go unchallenged on this list. Perhaps it's because American poets have a long history of not only thinking they know the Orient but thinking they can somehow channel it, with not a whole lot of awareness of their own cultural and historical position. <<<< I think you've gotten both calmer and more subtle in the posts since that first one, and your mind seems to have changed about some things. I don't fault you for this; I think (I hope) my mind has changed about a lot of these things, too. That's one of the points of these discussions. But if you feel that people have put you in a corner where you feel you're being forced to defend being an "ideological hack" or not write about other cultures, then perhaps it's because your initial posts were much more forceful than your expressions right now. As for some of the points you made in this most recent post, I have a couple of minor things to add. > I realize I can't win on the issue of Yau and of Chang et al. If I > try to distance myself from Yau I am still associated with his point > of view and expected to defend him (or repudiate him); if I express > approval of some of his opinions and those of Chang et al. I am > accused of toeing the party line, assigned the status of "co-writer." I certainly don't mean to do this to you, and if my bringing up Yau's article did this to you, then I'm sorry I brought it up. I mentioned it as an example of the kind of ways in which "awareness of [American poets'] cultural and historical position" can be used to harmful ends. I don't ask you to defend Yau's position--I don't ask anyone to do that--and the fact that both you and he are Asian American is really only slightly more than tangential to this conversation (however, I do believe that many Asian Americans, wittingly or not, seem to be playing both sides of the street: you do this yourself when you cast doubt on the ability of white Americans to "channel" "the Orient" in the same conversation as you say that you are but an "attenuated representative"; one voice, as I hear it, speaks authoritatively while the other says 'leave me alone'. Please correct me if I'm wrong or am otherwise out of bounds). At bottom, the fact that you and John Yau or anyone else are both Asian American should make you no more or less likely to agree on anything than, say, Chris Rock and Colin Powell. > I suppose Lucas is right: this really is, and has been all along, > about the politics of race in North America. Lucas gives us an image > of an America in which political correctness has run amok--that bad > old '80s and '90s world of campus speech codes and racial separatism; > in this world, it would seem, "racist" and "imperialist" are far more > threatening terms of abuse than racial slurs. well, I'm not doing that purposefully, but all right. I see what you mean. > In part I think this > perception is due to the odd position of contemporary poetry: often > nourished by the academy (although in constant agony over such > connections) and generally wedded to left politics. The result is > what I sometimes find to be a rather upside-down view of American > politics: the fact that the academy is hypervigilant about issues of > racism and sexism (though not always with real results) does not mean > that the wider society behaves the same way, or that a charge of > "racism" carries the same weight for a wider audience. That the > self-flagellation of intellectuals and academics over race > occasionally reaches the level of absurdity doesn't change the fact > that racism and sexism are real-- that white men still earn more > money than anyone else, for example, or that racial minorities > receive far worse health care and education. So I hardly raise such > issues lightly or without a sense of their political charge. very true indeed. I sincerely hope that no one doubts my firm belief that racism and prejudice are serious issues. But at the same time, I do not see how sensitivity to, say, imperialism as played out in Victorian writing or stereotypes of Asian culture in an amateur poem do anything to improve economic and social equality between the races. I guess every step away from racism is a step in the right direction, but I also think this kind of sensitivity-training, as it were, is energy misspent. > There is a strong implication by Lucas that nearly any charge of > racism or imperialism is irresponsible and likely to destroy > someone's career and reputation. again, I'm not consciously saying "any charge of racism" is irresponsible or destructive. Within certain contexts, however, I think such charges can either be very destructive or not destructive enough. > I see little evidence that this is > the case; when it is, it's usually not because non-white people have > gained power but because those currently in power are trying to fend > off criticism--cf. Trent Lott's loss of the Senate leadership over > statements perceived to be in support of segregation. But Lott has > hardly been forced from office or even from a position of significant > power, and other politicians who have made similar statements (e.g. > Rep. Howard Coble, who some months ago pronounced the internment of > Japanese Americans during WWII justified and desirable--a conclusion > long ago discredited by the federal government and the courts) have > suffered no ill effects whatsoever. I only wish the reactions against Lott and Coble were more destructive. And this is not only because I disagree with them politically, but also because as people in positions of authority I think their racist language and racist thinking are all the more harmful to those of us under their care. > Lucas asks: > < does that leave the imperialist critique of Ezra Pound's Chinese > translations? Where does that leave stereotyping in the Yasusada poems? > Where does that leave the racism in Andrew's poem? > > The motives of all these acts of poetry seem pretty pure...>> > > "Motives," in this case, cannot be reduced to the explicit intentions > of the authors. I'm confused. Please explain further. > I did not base my interpretation of the motives of > "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE" on my personal acquaintance with Andrew, but > on the rhetoric and tone of the work and the way in which it was > framed. That one can have the best intentions and yet produce work > with all kinds of unintended consequences should surprise no one. In > this discussion, for example, even if I regard my own motives as > "pure" (whatever that might mean), I find that radically different > motives are being projected onto my arguments, which is just a > testament to the structure of the larger discourse into which they > enter. true. But isn't consideration of "motives" based on the author? I guess, Timothy, I'm unclear about the extent to which you rely on the author as a stable figure in literary production, reading, and interpretation. > My association was not simply invented, but was based on the fact > that the line "WHY DO THE TAIWANESE / run over dogs like nothing" is > later followed by "WHY DO THE TIAWANESE / prepare meat in the > gutter." I would call that careful reading and not arbitrary > association. The point is one I have tried continuously to make: > that these images participate in a larger, negatively valenced > discourse about Asians, whether Andrew intended them to or not. I see what you mean (finally!). I did not read those lines that way--the poem was organized pretty randomly the way I read it, so no associations between dogs and eating showed up--and if I had, I think I'd be more pre-disposed to say yes, these images participate in a larger, negative discourse about Asians. As it is, I saw his poem as one of honest reactions to Asian culture. Complaints, yes, but honest complaints. Some of the complaints are unfair, as the poem leaves little space for anyone to answer them, but because of this I could focus less on the "extended discourse" you talk about. This does not, by the way, mean that I am staking an opinion on whether racism is or is not honest. I'd rather not get into that nature or nurture question! > Finally, Kent Johnson emphasizes the empathetic and sympathetic > elements of the Yasusada project. That is certainly his prerogative. > But I would still argue that Chang, Lew, Tabios, and Yau's critique > provides a necessary counterpoint. Since Kent has invited me to go > back and read Yasusada, I would invite him to go back and read my > posts over the past few days. If he still believes after reading > them that I am merely an ideological hack, intent on blindly > repeating "rituals of conventionalized authorship," then so be it. Well, I don't want to speak for Kent any more than you want to speak for John Yau! But I am serious about being confused about your position vis-a-vis the author. Your first post very clearly states a confusion about Andrew's political provocativeness by relating his earlier questions to his poetry, and you suggest that Pound, as an example, should not be expected to overcome the biases and practices and historical reality of his time. On top of that, you're noticeably uncomfortable about the authorlessness of Yasusada, as your assertion that it was written by a white American man (Kent Johnson?) makes clear. If this is the case, then that's fine, and our debate is really about how dead the author is (of course, I have conflicting beliefs about that, too. I've been trying to work them out on my own for no short time. So I don't expect you or anyone else to be fully consistent on this or any matter) (and if I can throw another parenthetical in here, I'll also add that the place of the author is completely relevant to questions of race/racism in literature: if the author is dead, there's no stable target for such accusations or readings). But on the other hand, you remind me of my own readings of Barthes and Fish, and you remind me that there can be no clear distinction between what's "in" the text and what's "read into" it. You also say that "motives" of the question of dog-eating are not based on the author's own, and that politicians' apologies for racist remarks are not to be accepted easily. So really, out of the parenthetical, what are your views on authorship? If you're tired of responding in public-debate form on the thread, please backchannel me. I'd really appreciate that. One more request, Timothy: a while ago you mentioned a publication of yours about "How to Write a Chinese Poem". My webserver in Beijing doesn't seem to want to let me on to that link. Do you think you could backchannel me a copy of the text? I'd be much obliged. Lucas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:02:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics ***CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS*** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit writing directly onto computer as in e-pomes spontaneities or is this something much more technical to query? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:36:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Fw: un/ Usual \heed ork/famous sightings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my mother's cousin was fish on barney miller and played a part in one of those mafia hit films my wife's relatives include her father a famous haijin her uncle a famous painter another relative who was hagiwara sakutaro a famous poet another relative who was a famous japanese lord who started the "state" of musica and was the first christian lord but gave it all up to become a wandering christian monk take my wife please she's a lazy japanese ( oops was that racist or just a little limericky >>>> (((( i used to love still do probably lime ricky's anyone out there remember them i got stoned w/harry smith and corso brushed elbows w/more famous folk then i care to name got alot of their autographs to prove it have been published in a famous rock star's poetry journal one of my dead cousins was a jewish prize fighter who took a dive for the mafia and they bought him a gas station as compensation his brother is a FAMOUS PODIATRIST NOW RETIRED THEIR BROTHER-IN- LAW worked for scwhinn his wife ethel died when i was young so that means she too was pretty young and young and pretty and a wonderful human being they used to tell my mother when she worked as a file clerk for american express in the 60's that she was alright for a jew i've been told that once or twice myself i am a racist tho many of my friend's are black but they are all "jazz" musicians so maybe that doesn't count i know people who know people who know people and i really mean that i'vesadly never taken advantage of all the vagabonds i knew and all that cultural capital that has slipped thru my fingers i should've taken that gig in poland even if they weren't gonna pay just to see how it felt to be in a country where so many people were died and so many bad one-liners were born out of and then on to berlin for a taste of that and then to paris to search for myself a little more amongst the luxury and the litter i feel so alone out here in cyber space in this cluttered little apt .... tomorrow i'll see james cotton and maria muldaur i'll get them to sign a couple of lps but i'm rambling for a guy who never travels i certainly do ramlbe alot oh i forgot i eat alot in the same joint as patti smith we're practically neighbors girl scout cookies anyone? apologies to sondheim for the following instant replay T he unUsual I hope you never read this. I really hoped you'd never read this. I(i)'ll make a p(i)a(s)t(achio) at the bend. You'll be retarded, intertwined by it. But in the meantime, I've robbed my boss I had soaring Gradually ate Records ( as in lps ) Ex-am ( as in where's me self?) says. I ( bulls hit ) have no idea why it might well be the insult or downsizing (we all had to cut salivary), and I did lose the bake-off 2 weeks i a row for the best Virgin's resistance (but the blowjob was part-time and ad hoc anyway). The drown sizzling femail simply said that none new none old belt goat ant mime, whiteout treason. I've aped replies for under-deployment, but since I had to have enjoy- ment with the slob (if ever plaid tough), I double can consumption forget tit for tat his joint. Stiff ouds now (f) n.y. word, tele come muting or motherised, art- slime for pull-prime, thin he arias of nest elavation, next devaluation, reaching, dieting, crop-dusting, lease pet me now. Off course, I can't get references, etc. Thank you not for heeding thus. bleeding The leisure i blow. - A land Animal blow. Thee adding your Thank your forward thus. is A land animal I thrusts. far'll be mean time, I must 've mealslime, in buy bet them forward all theses. I'll make pasties rat albeit. I've added hearsay. i dear say swell f (me ((()))tall lad mad (thee o bee night i'd eat wReck(ord)s Gradations scouring coring radi-ate sExjam I why: be (weak or resistant dense lob add shock hockey sad heart-slime then Virgins for take I salivary), sin win artillary)( land make them (butt sand clownsizing tone beans i'm, Ives enjoyment, slut prince inch spat for no reason. met, got should none plaid pimply dimply laid than son spilt time, fore add then dough), can't his i o u now ow you Sot his gat double plaid (tit them numb/employ meant un... empty lament pith their severed jaws It got So many smart gin revelations, impeaching, ease melt snow. now. snow. spilt meditating, elevation , rest/stps then organ parts brother wise , or bother sew is e, spartan - lore arias next sloppy editing, Of preferences, needing this A land full of this. form let c. re/fences, make good refer fences, lecture. you're his. bellow. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:48:03 +0000 Reply-To: Maria Villafranca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Villafranca Subject: open mic reading nyc July 15th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Open Mic poetry reading at the Dactyl Foundation, July 15th: Dactyl Foundation for the Arts & Humanities 64 Grand Street (between West Broadway & Wooster) SoHo, New York 10013 212-219-2344 www.dactyl.org Open Mic/Emerging Poets Series Thursday, July 15, 2004 7-9pm $7 donation Drinks will be served. Open to all writers and the general public. Poets are encouraged to register: write Maria Villafranca at poetry@verseonvellum.com. There will be a short break in between the readings. Poets plan to read for about 10 minutes, 3 poems. Visit www.dactyl.org for more information. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wake piss reboot do first third of form prof sz 'relax' why you 'no relax' lao tsu sz 'no do' why you 'do'.... dawn...blueeatsblack..cup of nite..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:44:47 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ah you no important can always be self important ah so.... 10 to 5:00..dreams of dawn....dn(r) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:37:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World Comments: To: hughsteinberg@YAHOO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Martin Short's grandmother and my grandmother were sisters. So you don't know Martin Short is a poet .... Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> hughsteinberg@YAHOO.COM 07/08/04 20:59 PM >>> Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. Hugh Steinberg --- Layne Russell wrote: > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > and got to > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > was also a > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > Layne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > mother used to > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > says he was the > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > of other > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:38:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World Comments: To: hughsteinberg@YAHOO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Also Dennis Lehane is my first husband's first cousin. Ah the richness of family life. Mairead >>> hughsteinberg@YAHOO.COM 07/08/04 20:59 PM >>> Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. Hugh Steinberg --- Layne Russell wrote: > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > and got to > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > was also a > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > Layne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > mother used to > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > says he was the > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > of other > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: <001f01c46577$afa24f20$fb01110a@Cipherdog> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have, actually, a lot that I would like to say in response to the last few posts in this thread; they raise, all of them, interesting issues, but I am going, first, to respond to some of the things that Lucas has said in this most recent post, at least in terms of the order in which it appeared on the list. Lucas offers a reading of how Tim's tone/voice/position changed over the course of his (Tim's) participation in this conversation, and he (Lucas) suggests that Tim's statements about being tired and defensive and in a no-win position vis a vis the conversation as a whole has at least as much to do with what Lucas appears to read as the strident accusatory tone of Tim's original posts as it does with the racism Tim perceived himself as responding to. I should be clear that I am not trying to put words in Tim's mouth, or Lucas' for that matter, but this question of how one perceives a charge/characterization of racism is an important one. So, to start, Lucas quotes from Tim's initial response to Andrew's poems: "Must we really do this again? Is it not possible for you to express yourself without leaning on some kind of Asian stereotype?.Again, I have to say I'm disappointed with the extent to which remarks like these go unchallenged on this list. Perhaps it's because American poets have a long history of not only thinking they know the Orient but thinking they can somehow channel it, with not a whole lot of awareness of their own cultural and historical position." Lucas then goes on to say: "I think you've gotten both calmer and more subtle in the posts since that first one, and your mind seems to have changed about some things. I don't fault you for this; I think (I hope) my mind has changed about a lot of these things, too. That's one of the points of these discussions. But if you feel that people have put you in a corner where you feel you're being forced to defend being an "ideological hack" or not write about other cultures, then perhaps it's because your initial posts were much more forceful than your expressions right now." I think it's important to remember that Tim was responding to Andrew in the context of an earlier post of Andrew's to this list, something in which he used an expression like "Filipino crack whores" and perhaps other similar epithets directed at Asians as well, and I think at that time--I will confess to not remembering it that clearly since that earlier conversation took place around the time I signed on to the list, and so I don't have the whole thing here on my computer--Tim raised many of the same issues he raised this time, and I think Andrew took a similar position to the one he took this time around as well, arguing that it was okay to say pretty much whatever he wanted for the purposes of provocation while at the same time trying very hard not to take responsibility for the fact that he had written what he had written. My point here is not to reopen that argument but rather to assert that Tim's anger, in that context, is understandable and should be valued. There is no reason for someone who is Asian or Asian-American to temper their anger in the fact of those kinds of statements/stereotypes--and it is important to remember here that no one knew that Andrew's "Tiawanese" poem was written in response to his experience of living in Taiwan until he himself provided that information. There was, in other words, until Andrew said the more that he had to say, no way to read the poem as anything other than a disembodied diatribe against the Taiwanese and, to the degree that the voice was disembodied, all other east Asians as well. Again, in the face of that kind of diatribe, in the context of Andrew's earlier posts, Tim's anger is not something that should be dismissed as an artifact of an ideological or historical reading what Andrew wrote. That Tim connected his anger to a larger concern about how American poets position themselves relative to Asia is also, it seems to me, understandable, but it is more than that; it seems to me a way of taking Andrew seriously as a writer--and the rest of us on this list too--because it asks Andrew, asks us, to consider our own responsibility for the words we use, in poems and otherwise. Had Tim gone no further than his initial question--Must we do this again?--I think Lucas's reading of Tim would make more sense and be more fair, because that question would have left things on a personal level, i.e., Andrew is employing Asian stereotypes; Tim is angry; Tim expresses his anger at Andrew, calls Andrew a racist--which, by the way, I don't think Tim ever actually did (though I may be wrong); I think Tim was always very careful to keep his responses limited to responses to Andrew's language--and allows that characterization to end discussion. Instead, Tim raises the stakes of the question by posing it in terms of a writer's and an audience's responsibility for the language that is used in the community they share. (And I will say it again, there is no reason for him to apologize for his anger, nor, I think, should those of us who are not Asian-American take him in any way to task for it; we are, in this conversation, the ones whose privilege allows us, if we want, to discuss this in a disinterested and intellectual tone; Tim does not, in this context, have that luxury. Were we talking about anti-semitism, I might very well express the same kind of anger that Tim has in this discussion.) It is true that Tim's tone changed as the discussion progressed--though I would not argue that he was any less angry, which if course could be my own misreading of his posts--but that change in tone was, first and foremost, in response to Andrew's statements which offered context--personal, historical, intellectual, poetic, analytical, etc.--for the poem. When Andrew did that, it became possible to have a discussion about whether the poem succeeded--Tim and I clearly believe it did not--and it became possible to have the discussion which we are still having now in one way or another, about whether, given the context Andrew laid out for us, the poem could be understood, as Lucas has suggested it can be, as a series of understandable complaints by a westerner living in Taiwan. (I know I am being reductive of Lucas' reading of the poem here, but my point is less about the complexity of his reading than it is about the fact that his reading depends on knowing that Andrew lives and works in Taiwan.) Later in his post, Lucas says: "I sincerely hope that no one doubts my firm belief that racism and prejudice are serious issues." And I want to acknowledge here a nuance in Lucas' posts, that while he may have serious questions about the label of racism/imperialism/etc. is used in literary criticism, he has consistently been willing to admit when aspects of this discussion have forced him to reflect on the dynamics of racism as a cultural and political, and not merely personal force, and on how that dynamic impinges on his life. Then Lucas says: "But at the same time, I do not see how sensitivity to, say, imperialism as played out in Victorian writing or stereotypes of Asian culture in an amateur poem do anything to improve economic and social equality between the races. I guess every step away from racism is a step in the right direction, but I also think this kind of sensitivity-training, as it were, is energy misspent." There is a long answer to this question that is, in fact, a whole other discussion, but I would say this: racism is not only a series of behaviors directed against a particular group of people. It is also a rhetoric that is embedded in the language we use. Sexist language provides a good example from another area: think about the difference between saying "mailman" and "mail carrier" to refer to the person who delivers your mail. The way these different words shape our thinking--or, in the case of those of us who grew up saying mailman and for whom mail carrier may still take a conscious effort, the thinking of our children versus our thinking--may be very, very subtle, but I would argue two things about the energy spent in what Lucas calls "this kind of sensitivity training." First, that energy means an awful lot to the people about whom "we"--those who need sensitizing--are being sensitized and to suggest that this energy is misspent is to stake out a position of privilege vis a vis that other group (women, in the case of my "mail carrier" example). So, in other words, those of us who are not the objects of racial hatred can afford not to worry about the specifics of racist language, especially when there are bigger political anti-racist fish to fry. Second, to the degree that racism is a rhetoric embedded in our language/culture, changing that rhetoric in both the public forum of, say, political speech and in the private forum of how we talk to each other and think to ourselves about "The Racial Other" is a project those of us who work against racism should be involved in. To suggest that Andrew ought to take responsibility for the Asian stereotypes he uses in his amateur poem is part of both sides of this project, since it asks him to think both about how his words play out publicly and to examine where those words come from within himself. Lucas then expresses confusion in response to the following, quoted from Tim's post: "Lucas asks: 'But if the "real response" should be an inquiry into the motives, then where > does that leave the imperialist critique of Ezra Pound's Chinese > translations? Where does that leave stereotyping in the Yasusada poems? > Where does that leave the racism in Andrew's poem? The motives of all these acts of poetry seem pretty pure...' 'Motives,' in this case, cannot be reduced to the explicit intentions of the authors." I think "motives" is the wrong word here, which is why Tim put it in quotes. We have all had the experience, no doubt, of saying something to someone that we thought was at worst harmless or innocuous and at best helpful and important and then having that person respond as if we had said something insulting or degrading or critical in negative way, or whatever. The fact is that what we say or write, once we say it or write it, enters not only a stream of discourse (in my example, the entire history of the discussions, arguments, etc. that you have had with the person you are talking to) but also a complex web of interpretive strategies that we cannot control (in my example, the different ways in which you and that other person have understood those discussions/arguments and how your separate understandings are rooted in the specifics of your individual histories). This same dynamic exists at the cultural level, which is why, in terms of whether Andrew's poem, not Andrew, is racist, it does not matter on one level what Andrew's motives were; his language, once he posted the poem, entered this dynamic I have just described, and just as, when you argue with someone, you need to take responsibility for the ways in which what you say may have unintentionally hurt them, and so change the way you say what you say--and isn't achieving this awareness the kind of thing that goes on, say, in couples counseling?--so, it is not dismissive of Andrew to ask him to take responsibility for the way he said what he said, which is really all that Tim and I were insisting that he needed to do, within the poem, to move the poem in the direction he said he wanted it to go in his [Andrew's] subsequent posts. I should also add that I am not suggesting racism can be reduced to something that belongs on the analyst's couch, so to speak; clearly it is not. I am just trying to illustrate the dynamic whereby what one says, however "purely" motivated, can escape one's own intentions once it enters a public forum. More in response to the other recent posts in this thread in the next post. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:19:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/08/04 2:09:26 PM, LKlein@CIPHERJOURNAL.COM writes: > Murat: > > > > When is a translation "racist," when is it not? Since, in my view, > > translation is only possible through a misreading of a text, every > authentic translation > > is to some extent exploitative (does that make it necessarily racist?). > > exploitative is probably not necessarily racist, but they're damn similar, > aren't they? > > > Not really. The exploitation I am referring to is of language. The racism discussed in this thread is towards people. A text in another language can be exloited for many reasons, one of which may be racism, that is to say, implying its inferiority. The other language can also be seen as superior, possessing a quality the host language does not possess. Pound's translations, particularly "The Seafarer" and a few from the Chinese are of this kind. I believe that Pound's Chinese translations in Cathay (particularly "A Merchant's Letter") are attempts to bring Dante's visual clarity into English, which he could not directly do. He had to decouple that clarity from its Christian content, which exists in Dante. Hence, the attraction of Chinese poetry: a godless Dante. > > So I wonder how this interacts with my belief that translation is an act > towards world peace. I mean, it's a pretty grand sentiment, but if we all > read the Qu'uran we're be more inclined to understand Islamic viewpoints, > wouldn't we? When I was growing up I knew my great-grandmother was Russian > and therefore Russia could not be the Evil Empire (nevermind that she was a > White Russian who fled the communists--this was a subtlety lost on me then); > I'm sure I would have had a similar view if I had read Tolstoy at an age > where I couldn't distinguish between different political regimes. Okay, that > seems particularly unlikely. But nonetheless I endorse the political > possibilities of the internationalism that translation both inspires and > requires. > > > I completely agree with you about the antidotal effect of translations against the demonization of the other. This does not mean that we do not distort the other. An ideal translation creates an alien familiarity, pulling the other into i, and the i into the other. > Which is not to say that I disagree about translation requiring a > misreading. > > > That exploitative violence is what Spicer is after in "after Lorca." > > > > Pound was unquestionably "misreading" Chinese texts to bring a previously > > absent quality to the English language. Did that quality exist in Chinese > poetry > > or was it purely a phantasy which Pound used prejudices about China as a > prop > > to develop ? Only in the latter case can one think of racism? > > Pound's translations from the Chinese--for all his liberties, for all his > howlers--made possible a literalism previously unimaginable. Because he > "broke the pentameter" and disgarded the rhyme scheme, he was able to follow > the grammar and pace of the Chinese poetic line. This hadn't been done > before, and was done afterwards with greater success because of translators > who at once followed Pound's model and also knew the language better. And > that's what Eliot meant when he called Pound "the inventor of Chinese poetry > for our time". He saw then that people would follow him. It's hard for me to > see this as racist, because it was a movement against an earlier > prescription of how to translate Chinese poetry. > > > Yes. What Pound is "inventing" is writing a new way in English (maybe a poem as well written as prose). > On the other hand, translations of classical Chinese poetry into English by > Chinese writers (I do not count Wai-lim Yip, Yun Huangte, or most other > Western academics raised in China) do indeed read as if they were done in > 1840. I find them unreadable, heavy-stomping and contrived, full of > misreadings and textual violations. But it's hard--damned near > impossible--to call them racist. > > > When you say "textual violations," do you mean in Chinese? Hiro Sato told me that the idea that haikus are written in three lines is a fiction. A haiku exists in one single line. I read some of his haiklu translations years ago. They had a different kind of energy, undercutting a lot of American assumptions about haiku and the ethos it represents. These are not issues of racism but part of the history of literary sensibility. > > > Also, it seems to me, we are merging two different issues. If I remember > > correctly, John Yau's piece appeared in The American Poetry Review in > response to > > Elliot Weinberger's modernist anthology. E's talk at The Poetry Project on > the > > occasion of the publication of the same book elicited a very strong > negative > > response also from Amiri Baraka. > > Baraka's negative response to Weinberger was unrelated, and had little to do > with race, more to do with revolution. Quite the contrary, inclusion of > Baraka in the anthology was one of the pegs on which Yau managed to hang his > accusation of Weinberger's racism (he said that he could only handle the > image of the angry black man, so his anthology included only two black > men--Baraka and Langston Hughes--both ranting). Oh, there's so much of Yau's > article that deserved to be laughed out of court. > > > You are right. I received a backchannel correction on that account. > > > In my view, a poet is always responsible for his or her words, now and > ever. > > this is the clearest and closest we've come to taking a stake in authorship > so far! > > > I suppose I am, but with two distinctions. Authorship is not ownership. Second, this idea does not imply that the poetic "i" has a defined identity. I only mean that reading a poem I always assume that the poet chose the words he or she used, not a data base, not a computer, not dreams, not a system. That choice has a moral dimension -in that way, words are acts of freedom. > > I have caveats and disagreements, but that's for a different thread. > > > Of course, the distinction between "poet" and "translator" is much more > > blurry, ambiguous than I made for rhetorical reason; but that is a blur > one should > > confront directly. > > exactly. For instance, what about a translator's responsibility for his > words? > > > > The responsibility is the same as a poet's, at least in my view of both. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:21:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: Brian Teare's email, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey. Does anyone have an email address for Brian Teare? Please backchannel me, thanks. betsy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:23:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: Review of Bob Glück's "Denny Smith" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For your edification, my review of Bob Glück's "Denny Smith" in Gay City News this week. Note the very handsome publicity shot of Bob: www.gaycitynews.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:45:52 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII hey this is getting good. i rode on a plane next to judy grahn once. On 8 Jul 2004, david.bircumshaw wrote: > D.H.Lawrence knew my grandmother - you can check this out - there's a Mrs > Bircumshaw in one of his short stories. I also used to be friends with Sean > O' Casey's granddaughter and went to her wedding in Hackney in 1988 or 89 > and met O'Casey's widow. > > (Grin) > > Best > > Dave > > > David Bircumshaw > > Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet > & Painting Without Numbers > > http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Steinberg" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:04 AM > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. > > Hugh Steinberg > --- Layne Russell wrote: > > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > > and got to > > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > > was also a > > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > > > Layne > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > > mother used to > > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > > says he was the > > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > > of other > > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Hunley Subject: Poem: Infinite Loop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Infinite Loop, a New Novel1 by David Foster Wallace2 In the first chapter, the king dies and the queen dies of grief.3 In the second chapter, a flashback, we see the court jester pouring poison into the king?s goblet.4 In chapter three, a peasant army, loyal to their beloved regicided royals,5 mount horses, storm the jester?s castle walls. They don?t have cannons; they fling tennis balls.6 In chapter four, the embattled jester king, while attending mass, orders scores of beheadings. ?Mass beheadings,? calls the town crier, whose head rolls down the street in the chapter?s final moments.7 Chapter five: the jester king and his wife, tense from all the beheadings, summon the new court jester.8 Chapter six: the jester king transforms into a vermin, or a dung beetle.9 VII: The new jester slips poison into the jester king?s goblet.10 VIII: The king dies and the queen dies of grief.11 Footnotes 1 Footnotes to poems should be longer than the poems themselves. T.S. Eliot set this precedent, aided by Ezra Pound, with The Waste Land. In addition to their length, the footnotes to The Waste Land were clear to a fault. They clarified the poem so much that professors couldn?t think of anything smart to add. Consequently, no professor ever taught the poem in an undergraduate or graduate seminar. This is why you have probably never heard of The Waste Land or T.S. Eliot, who lived a sad, obscure life as a penniless bank clerk and then died of irony. 2 As an undergraduate at the University of Washington, I went to a night club called The OK Hotel to see a grunge band called Ezra Pound open a show for my friend?s band, Pailey Sin. At intermission, I met Ezra Pound?s manager and asked about the name. ?Ezra Pound was such an interesting person,? said the manager. ?She had to publish using a male pen name because the Victorians wouldn?t accept a female novelist.? So I said ?Um, maybe the band should be called George Eliot.? 3 In Aspects of the Novel, E.M. Forster explained that cause-and- effect is the essence of plot, of storytelling. As an example, he asserted that ?The king died and then the queen died? is not a story yet because the author has not shown causality between the events, whereas the sentence ?The king died and the queen died of grief? does show a causal relationship and therefore has the makings of a story. Other examples would be ?I drank a lot last night, so I fell down? and (here?s a more detailed causal chain, the outline of one of the subplots of my novel A Staggering Bout of Breathless Loquaciousness) ?I hit a tennis ball hard, over and over, until the ball went flat and lost most of its yellow felt, so I gave the ball to my Labrador, Maggie (short for Golden Majestic Princess, her AKC name), who mouthed it and covered it in drool and then expected me to pick it up and throw it to her, but I refused because ewww and ick, and so now I don?t think my dog likes me much.? 4 One type of court jester was the jongleur, a court poet who write in a style similar to the troubadours. The troubadours favored challenging forms, generically known as trobar clus, which included sestinas and other word arrangements that were as difficult to assemble as a 1,000 piece puzzle that looks like a Jackson Pollock painting when it?s completed. 5 Heroic couplets were popular with Enlightenment-era poets like Alexander Pope. 6 The scoring system in tennis (fifteen-thirty-forty-game) is thought to have originated as an analogy to an hour on the clock. 7 ?If my thought dreams could be seen, they?d probably put my head in a guillotine.? ? Bob Dylan 8 In Rainier Maria Rilke?s book, The Duino Elegies, Forest gives Bubba?s mama a whole heap o? money that he got from Apple Computer stock, so now she has women working in her kitchen, rather than vice versa. As a Ph.D. candidate at Florida State, I read in the school paper that a band called Duino Elegies, composed of former members of Ezra Pound, was performing at a Tallahassee club called The Warehouse. As Rainier Maria Rilke once wrote, ?That?s all I have to say about that.? 9 Here the symbolism is obvious. Becoming a king has not erased his memories of demeaning, humiliating work. On the inside, he still feels like the lowest insect in the kingdom. There is evidence that The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka was influenced by Kafka?s reading of Venus in Furs by Leopold Van Masoch. There is also evidence that Kafka stole his title from Ovid, so people should just shut up about any similarities between this chapter and Kafka?s work. 10 It?s actually insect repellent, with 30% Deet. 11 In tennis, when two players stay back at the baselines and lob the ball back and forth, the players are referred to as ?moonballers.? A match between two moonballers can go on forever, but it?s thrilling to watch, like a performance by a top tier comedian, a fellow of infinite jest. Tom C. Hunley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: further on Rakosi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Today's L.A. Times includes a Rakosi obit., which I paste in below -- Also got the sad news yesterday of the death of Syreeta Wright in L.A. at age 58 from breast cancer -- For you younger folk who don't know her, she was a tremendous singer/songwriter who co-authored several of Stevie Wonder's best early songs -- Check out the Motown album STEVIE WONDER PRESENTS SYREETA for about the best of her own work -- July 9, 2004 E-mail story Print OBITUARIES Carl Rakosi, 100; Poet Was Admired for His Wry Wit and Insight By Myrna Oliver, Times Staff Writer Carl Rakosi, a prolific poet whose nonrhyming narratives were precise, perceptive and pithy commentaries on life as he witnessed it, has died at the age of 100. Rakosi, cited as a major American poet by the National Poetry Foundation, died June 24 in his San Francisco home of unspecified causes associated with aging. Marilyn Kane, his partner since the death of his wife, Leah, in 1989, said Rakosi had been in good health until the end and that only three weeks before his death had shipped off a batch of new poems to the New York Review of Books. His work influenced younger generations of poets, including the Beats. Lawrence Ferlinghetti, poet and co-founder of San Francisco's City Lights bookstore, called Rakosi "one of the poets that the Beat Generation poets read and admired for his unadorned presentation of objective reality." Rakosi was especially known for his down-to-earth "Americana" series of poems and another called "Country Epitaphs," published in 1999. In the latter, Rakosi's wry wit as well as insight on humanity sparkled in such lines as, "The widow Fairchild spoke into a headstone: 'At last I know where he is at night,' " or when the widow Benson similarly addressed her buried husband with, "Gone but not forgiven." Rakosi became associated with what became known as the objectivists — a term coined by Louis Zukofsky — along with Zukofsky, George Oppen, Charles Reznikoff and others, when all of them were invited to contribute to a special issue of Poetry magazine funded by Ezra Pound. "Objectivist writing," according to Contemporary Authors, "is characterized by the presentation of concrete images; direct treatment of the subject without ornamental verbiage; and insistence on a high degree of craftsmanship, such that the poem itself is an object deliberately constructed in a form appropriate to its content." The term became "a bit of a nuisance," Rakosi conceded in a 2003 interview in the American Poetry Review, because it begs definition yet cannot be defined by the diverse work of the four poets. He said Zukofsky disliked being forced into coming up with the term, but when he asked whether Rakosi minded its use, "I wrote back: '… No, just as long as I get into the magazine.' " Diane Wakoski, writing for the 1980 edition of Contemporary Poets, described Rakosi's work as "short and sprightly and not at all meditative, though seemingly made up of conclusions about the meaning of the world." "It feels like the language of a man who has been active all of his life and now has comments about everything he has experienced, slightly wry and not at all uncritical, though delivered with friendliness," she wrote. "As a poet, he is a sort of gadfly, not taking on any epic subjects … but stinging and buzzing about everything, a reminder that to live intelligently is never to relax or to leave unnoticed any slightly foolish thing — the poet as commentator on all of life." Rakosi published more than a dozen books of poems, from "Two Poems" in 1933 through "The Old Poet's Tale" in 1999, even though his pen was stilled for about three decades beginning in the 1930s. After he married in 1939 and became a father, he needed to earn a living. He chose social work, and found it simply didn't mix with being a poet. Rakosi also attributed his hiatus to Marxist doubts about the social utility of poetry. Born in Berlin on Nov. 6, 1903, Rakosi spent his early years in Hungary and in 1910 came to the U.S. with his father, a watchmaker, who remarried and raised him in Kenosha, Wis. He never again saw his mother, who died in Auschwitz. Rakosi earned bachelor's and master's degrees in psychology at the University of Wisconsin and later another master's degree in social work at the University of Pennsylvania. After teaching briefly at the University of Texas in Austin, he settled into a career as a social worker, family counselor and psychologist. Throughout that career, he was known by the name Callman Rawley. "At the time," he once said, "there were very few foreign names in the press, and they were all factory workers. I thought I'd never get a job at a university with a foreign name." He worked in Chicago, Boston, New York, New Orleans, Austin, San Antonio, St. Louis and Cleveland, and from 1945 until he retired in 1968 was executive director of the Jewish Family and Children's Service of Minneapolis. Fortuitously, as he contemplated his retirement, Rakosi received a fan letter from a British student poet who was familiar with his early work and asked whether he still wrote. "It was like a missive from another planet," Rakosi said in an interview with the American Poetry Review. "I had long assumed that nobody, I mean nobody, remembered my work anymore or even remembered my name. That [he] found my work so interesting meant that others of his generation might also. That knowledge rushed through me and propelled me into writing again." Rakosi churned out volumes of poetry, publishing the bulk of his work during his latter decades. The National Endowment for the Arts gave him awards and grants in 1969, 1972 and 1979. He received a distinguished service award from the National Poetry Assn. in 1988 and the PEN Award in 1996 for his book "Poems, 1923-1941," published the previous year. In addition to Kane, Rakosi is survived by a son, George Rawley of Chico, Calif.; daughter Barbara Rawley of London; six grandchildren; and four great-grandsons. The family has asked that memorial donations be sent to the Strybing Arboretum Society, 9th Avenue and Lincoln Way, San Francisco, CA 94122. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:51:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hmm... Nathaniel Mackey was my dad's student in college... My mom was friends with Kahil Gibran's wife... My grandparents on my mother's side were friends with Joel Spingarn, one of the founders of the NAACP and a "patron" of Langston Hughes My grandfather on my father's side (an English teacher) ran a high school literary magazine, _Inklings_, in which the young Jackson Mac Low published his first poems. Tim hey this is getting good. i rode on a plane next to judy grahn once. On 8 Jul 2004, david.bircumshaw wrote: >D.H.Lawrence knew my grandmother - you can check this out - there's a Mrs >Bircumshaw in one of his short stories. I also used to be friends with Sean >O' Casey's granddaughter and went to her wedding in Hackney in 1988 or 89 >and met O'Casey's widow. > >(Grin) > >Best > >Dave > > >David Bircumshaw > >Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet >& Painting Without Numbers > >http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Hugh Steinberg" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:04 AM >Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > >Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. > >Hugh Steinberg >--- Layne Russell wrote: > > I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met > > and got to > > know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she > > was also a > > writer and was Anais Nin's neice. > > > > Layne > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM > > Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World > > > > > > hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my > > mother used to > > ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she > > says he was the > > silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know > > of other > > extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:09:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit At the first World Festival of Black Arts in Dakar, Senegal, I and Langston Hughes shared an elevator between the second and first floor of the theater where we had just heard a reading by Aimee Cesaire. Hughes and I also share the same birthday, February 1. Stephen Vincent Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > Hmm... > > Nathaniel Mackey was my dad's student in college... > > My mom was friends with Kahil Gibran's wife... > > My grandparents on my mother's side were friends with Joel Spingarn, one of > the founders of the NAACP and a "patron" of Langston Hughes > > My grandfather on my father's side (an English teacher) ran a high school > literary magazine, _Inklings_, in which the young Jackson Mac Low published > his first poems. > > Tim > > > > hey this is getting good. i rode on a plane next to judy grahn once. > > On 8 Jul 2004, david.bircumshaw wrote: >> D.H.Lawrence knew my grandmother - you can check this out - there's a Mrs >> Bircumshaw in one of his short stories. I also used to be friends with > Sean >> O' Casey's granddaughter and went to her wedding in Hackney in 1988 or 89 >> and met O'Casey's widow. >> >> (Grin) >> >> Best >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Bircumshaw >> >> Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet >> & Painting Without Numbers >> >> http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Hugh Steinberg" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:04 AM >> Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World >> >> >> Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. >> >> Hugh Steinberg >> --- Layne Russell wrote: >>> I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met >>> and got to >>> know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she >>> was also a >>> writer and was Anais Nin's neice. >>> >>> Layne >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World >>> >>> >>> hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my >>> mother used to >>> ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she >>> says he was the >>> silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know >>> of other >>> extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. >>> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:28:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: infinite degrees of conjoinment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain nobody in my family ever knew any of those people (though there's some evidence that my grandmother read Tennyson in between bouts of plowing) -- BUT, October 22 is the birthday of David Bromige, A.L. Nielsen, Cole Swenson and any number of otherwise unrelated people who love poetry --- David worked for a Scandinavian farmer once -- I come from a country nearby the Swenson place -- I once watched Lyndon Johnson recite Carl Sandburg on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial -- Sandburg was a Swede, which is almost Danish -- Harold Bloom says young folk shouldn't have computers in their libraries or schools (see this morning's op ed pages) -- but then how will they manage to cite those endless Chelsea House volumes they find on the web and think he wrote? I once met Harold Bloom -- but he ain't no Dane -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:35:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Incubation Live Webcast Monday 12 July 04 plus New Media by Women Gallery (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-82261732-1089394524=:24470" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-82261732-1089394524=:24470 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Tune in on Monday 12 July at 11.00 to watch a live webcast of the first day= of Incubation3, the trAce Symposium on Writing and the Internet. [all time= s BST] http://esystems.ntu.ac.uk/broadcast/trace.htm 11.00 Welcome: Sue Thomas, Artistic Director, trAce 11.10 Showcase of trAce Projects including: ** Dawn Quilt for South Asia created for The British Council and presented = by Margaret Meyer, Director of Film, Literature & New Media ** About Time developed with Kate Pullinger for the Royal Literary Fund and= the National Health Service Information Authority **2004 Incubation Gallery of Women's New Media Writing curated by Carolyn G= uertin and presented by Sue Thomas 12.00 Official Welcome by Professor Trevor Palmer, Pro Vice-Chancellor of The Not= tingham Trent University 12.15 - 13.15 Tim Wright - Digital Writer-in-Residence 'In Search of Oldton' 14.45 - 15.45 Keynote - Ted Nelson 'Fixing the Computer World' Introduced by Charlie Gere 16.15 - 17.15 Alan Sondheim 'Past and Present Work' Introduced by Lawrence Upton Also for those not able to attend - visit this year's online gallery 'The N= ew Incunabula : The Shape of A Woman=92s Form' curated by Carolyn Guertin h= ttp://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/gallery2004.cfm Full information about the Incubation Programme at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/i= ncubation/ the trAce Online Writing Centre trace@ntu.ac.uk http://trace.ntu.ac.uk The Nottingham Trent University Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, UK Tel: + 44 (0) 115 848 6360 Fax: + 44 (0) 115 848 6364 You have received this mail because you visited the trAce site and register= ed to be kept informed of our activities. If you would like to be removed from this database, please = send an email to trace@ntu.ac.uk with the subject line UNSUB REGISTER. Please be sure that y= ou send the email from the address with which you registered, or give your name in the body of you= r email. --0-82261732-1089394524=:24470-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:52:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Peace Comes to the World Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is a piece I am reading as part of "Context for Peace," a jazz-spoken word collaboration with the Ron Stallings ensemble which we are performing tonight as part of the Stanford Jazz Festival. Other poets are devorah major and Tim'm West. HIlton Obenzinger Peace Comes to the World Peace comes to the world. Israelis and Palestinians are eager to share. No one gets killed in Jerusalem, no knives, no bombs, no soldiers, and everyone forgets that the holy shrines exist. Holy what? All the looted artifacts and ancient Sumerian stone books wiggle their way back into the Baghdad Museum. Dick Cheney really does have a change of heart. Politics becomes a way to meet new people and make sense of the world, a kind of dating service and Department of Public Works in one. Generals decide that the military's job will be to watch the skies for dangerous asteroids that may hit us. In the meantime, they'll clean up the planet and stop computer spam. Millions watch TV and walk away smarter. Oil is no longer needed. Machines run on dreams. Iraqis never do learn how to play baseball, and they are glad. Sir Lanka is no longer divided, Ireland is no longer divided, Kashmir is no longer divided, Cyprus is one. Koreans skip across the DMV. Palestinian refugees return to their homes, and their Israeli neighbors no longer know why they wanted them to leave. The LAPD snaps on soft handcuffs, the officers smiling and winking at suspects and TV cameras. No one is forced to give a blow job in a high school broom closet. Crack and heroin and speed no longer have any effect, and cocaine might as well be talcum powder. Addictions become old movies to laugh at. Indians shave off the faces of the presidents from Mt. Rushmore. Sex is re-invented nightly. Giant corporations hand over their profits to schools. Rivers flow with pure water. The president apologizes for slavery, and he actually weeps. Most Americans can speak fluent Chinese, Spanish, French and at least one more language in addition to English. Millions finally do read Moby-Dick, and they even like it. No one sells their body for sex. Women drive convertibles in Saudi Arabia. No one is hungry. Jerry Falwell admits that he really does not understand life, he can't imagine what he had in mind when he spoke about Hell, and he decides that sex is a healthy, ordinary and natural part of life. A woman president takes maternity leave. Racists really do get color blind. High schools are named after Lenny Bruce and Charlie Chaplin. The Thelonius Monk School of Spiritual Mathematics opens its doors, and Condeleeza Rice is the first to enroll. All these and more can I see in a flash and then the vision passes, dies off. I do not make a habit of deluding myself. But on occasion it helps to remember that nothing has to be the way that it is. Sooner or later, history will kiss us on the lips. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director for Honors Writing, Undergraduate Research Programs Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 415 Sweet Hall 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:19:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Modesty of course forbids one from forms of boasting but too as so much is being shared one is required to speak: I am on good terms with someone whose late husband was close to Dylan Thomas, Ezra Pound and Robert Lowell, I also know people who were acquainted with the young Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath (they were too much in love, I was told, that's why they were doomed) and someone else who was friends with Philip Larkin (Philip's problem was his father, I have been told, he wouldn't let him speak) Best of all I used to know a guy called John Sparkey who ran a piano shop in Digbeth in Birmingham and claimed to be the only living descendant of the poet Shakespeare. That claim was fiercely disputed btw. Oh yeah, I've also slept on the same sofa cushions as Les Murray in Melbourne and my mate Robin was around when Alisdair Gray read passages from his then unpublished novel Lanark and nobody took any notice because they were all too sloshed. (Smiles - this is funny) Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:09 PM Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World At the first World Festival of Black Arts in Dakar, Senegal, I and Langston Hughes shared an elevator between the second and first floor of the theater where we had just heard a reading by Aimee Cesaire. Hughes and I also share the same birthday, February 1. Stephen Vincent Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com > Hmm... > > Nathaniel Mackey was my dad's student in college... > > My mom was friends with Kahil Gibran's wife... > > My grandparents on my mother's side were friends with Joel Spingarn, one of > the founders of the NAACP and a "patron" of Langston Hughes > > My grandfather on my father's side (an English teacher) ran a high school > literary magazine, _Inklings_, in which the young Jackson Mac Low published > his first poems. > > Tim > > > > hey this is getting good. i rode on a plane next to judy grahn once. > > On 8 Jul 2004, david.bircumshaw wrote: >> D.H.Lawrence knew my grandmother - you can check this out - there's a Mrs >> Bircumshaw in one of his short stories. I also used to be friends with > Sean >> O' Casey's granddaughter and went to her wedding in Hackney in 1988 or 89 >> and met O'Casey's widow. >> >> (Grin) >> >> Best >> >> Dave >> >> >> David Bircumshaw >> >> Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet >> & Painting Without Numbers >> >> http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Hugh Steinberg" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:04 AM >> Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World >> >> >> Robert Pinsky is my brother's wife's brother's wife's uncle. >> >> Hugh Steinberg >> --- Layne Russell wrote: >>> I used to stop into a live forum chat a few years back and met >>> and got to >>> know a bit a woman who (back channel) revealed to me that she >>> was also a >>> writer and was Anais Nin's neice. >>> >>> Layne >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:19 AM >>> Subject: Re: Cheryl Dunyes One Degree from Poetry World >>> >>> >>> hey my cousin's ex-husband is nan goldin's brother... and my >>> mother used to >>> ride her bicycle w- asger jorn to school every morning. she >>> says he was the >>> silliest person she ever met. whoo-hoo. i'm curious to know >>> of other >>> extremely silly small-world moments on poetix. >>> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:03:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians (thirteen) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed walk jaw entrails enfolds / perform grasping / twist sword anger disorderly / torn control actions malice more / anger crowds recreation approach / festivity Semiramis emitting fragrance clad boldness revealing rush together contest / tumult ensue deceiver / disdain battle injure arouses did / courtesy much grief unknowingly deceiver / wore helpless what dispersed belongs to ghosts take shelter and / fiercely recount warlike worthies measured casual plunder brandish / high-spirited pity miserable / reward life-restoring misbeliever give favor unexpectedly horrible / color brightly unfamiliar stay destroy / known exchange secretly unexpectedly murky / clotted twofold unlike skillfully unusually reveal defiled quickly / alive at full length without avail lolled roll nor / cease mortal / there lacking / known beyond any remedy discovered undone increase / appease anything already ended refresh / harmful captives causing desolation judgment exalted danced / ravaged surpass natural / duty anxious crowds lacking / disaster rubbish heap wild / of the woods bidding unexpectantly object of reverence persuasion / tricks lovingly vile violate thought / full of cares what's piercing / is re-echoed immediately flooded / undeserving stupefied innocent savage / taught appearance suspicion springtime return willingly / soft leopard demonstrated demand / seized origin attire flowed with / difficulty Shanhar robes spread harmless teachings secretly loving / small cross depart wandering wide worn out / pierced quickly grievous account / close by stay close by deceit at once stained / fresh disfigured undecided perceive / guile death place determined defined / at once courteously unfitting breathe into bring forth enthrallments abandoned / enfeebling mightily stunned / engage destruction refrain / reward unconscious favor stained stars / enthrall quickly / powdered peril sharp captive memorials / clutch grief prevents grief too late / reign care / faltering piercing pierce / story affliction two just / showed properly evening star / stars flashing designs bristling / clear except creature / make dim the moon change form marvelous / formerly control pour forth ends of the bit reveal Tartarus imprisoned / land destruction itself / quailed pleases Nabopolassar either / forsaken afflict afflicting untried / unrespected defeated unknowing misjudge / conflict before false appearance freed / improper enfeebled deliver bonds sever else put to trial guard demonstrated snare / at once burst disturbance make ready / snags force quite useless assault / punish horror easily massive unencumbered "the Natural the only obstacle..." hindrance never the more watchful / quickly "slavery lifting up / skull..." before raises violence / surpass many-headed split / quickly requite torches quelled brandished once upon a time impartial / reward interest captive recognized / answer hinder set free noxious / shape too fastidious wasted wretchedness punishments / unnerve speak recall / unknown despoil fallen covered / deceit form desolate disregard / restored Nabopolassar prey upon appearance bristling / unknown immediately empty all the while consumed / breath burned siege overcome / disastrous discern offspring spurred / entertainment utter / weariness declare / ~ also unseemly again not at all in return desolate exhausted / pierced end destroy / larger treachery surely / melts defend favor bloody bloodstained confirming starvation pay for / judgment drove in unease oh / disaster it pleases surely / Someone _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:04:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Sequillable 'Quipt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the clock had struck twice Barbara S —, a book — my story — to tell — Barbara S — imprudence — with — Barbara S — irreparable circumstances, Barbara S — her hand — the same — attire — the second — crooners did swoop in — spooked ever like schooners — reveal to her — Barbara S — the clock had struck twice _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: TIAWANESE / Pound / Yasusada In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, so I have a lot to say in response to these last three posts from Stephen, Lucas and Murat, but I'm going to group them all into one post. First, from Stephen: >>Is there such a thing as an accurate epiphany in which the art work rises (burns) above the claims(including racial prejudices) of both artist and subject into something independent, something either called true or authentic and open to whatever interpretation any member of the public might want to bring to it.???<< I'm not entirely sure what this question means, but it sounds to me like it's asking whether there is ever a way in which a work of art transcends its own historical, cultural, political, etc. context. If that's what the question means, I would have to say that the answer is no. This does not mean that we cannot choose, sometimes for entirely valid and important reasons, to set that context aside in our reading of a text, and it does not mean that there aren't times when perhaps we should set that context aside--which is something I am simply going to grant here without going into the specifics of when that might be. But choosing to read a work of art this way, as if it could transcend its own moment and the history and tradition in which it and its future are implicated is also an ideological and historical choice--it, too, in other words, does not and cannot transcend itself--and it is important that we recognize this and take responsibility for it when we do it. So, one might choose for any number of reasons to read Pound's Cathay, for example, without any reference to the issues raised by the conversation we've been having, but it seems to me incumbent upon the person who does so, assuming he or she knows something about those issues, to acknowledge that he or she is setting them aside in the interests of a particular agenda. To be more specific, if I want to say that I am reading and enjoying and celebrating Pound's Cathay because what I care about as a poet/critic/reader are the possibilities the work opened up in English for certain kinds of expression that did not exist in English at the time, and that the work's implication in an imperialist agenda/argument/dialectic/whatever is irrelevant to my reading, then I have at least made my agenda clear. People might choose to quarrel with my agenda, but that would mean they are also choosing not to accept the terms I have defined for my reading and they would have to acknowledge that in anything they have to say about my reading. (Not sure if that's really clear.) And then from Lucas: >> but I guess in the end I'm still not completely sold on ideological and historical readings. May be as simple as that<< But as I said above, I think all readings are ideological and historical, even those that want to suggest they are neither. >>I can see this. But I'm still wary of the accusatory tone of much of this kind of criticism [criticism that examines racism, etc.]<< I cannot help but think here of the students in my creative nonfiction class, which is a sophomore level honors class, who consistently, semester after semester, complain of the accusatory, harsh, derogatory tone in my comments on their papers. They find this tone in comments like "This makes no sense" or "How do you know this?" or "Why should I believe you here?" which to me are rather straightforward statements of my responses to what my students have written. When we discuss this, I try to point out to them that I state things as baldly as I do not because I think they are not good writers but precisely because I take them seriously as writers, because I think they are good enough and take themselves seriously enough not to need euphemizing and gentle prodding. I respect them enough, I tell them, to say straightforwardly what I think, and I also explain that it doesn't mean I am always accurate. Finally, we talk about the fact that my comments are not evaluations of who they are as people, but of the writing they have done. I will not deny that there are critics who use accusations of racism or sexism of whatever as a bludgeon with which to beat writers and artists, living and dead, into a kind of submission to whatever the critic's ideological agenda happens to be, but my own experience is that most critics are not doing that. Rather, they are trying to engage in the kind of plain, straightforward talking about the writing that I try to engage in with my students. In any event, though, the fact that there may be critics who do use accusations of racism, etc. as a weapon should not, I don't think, be used to call into question the entire enterprise of understanding how all those "isms" inform our culture and our cultural products. Critics who do that need to be held accountable for it, but I have to say, as I have said before, I don't think either Tim or I did that in the early stages of this conversation, especially after Andrew explained what was at stake for him in writing the poem. (I hate to keep returning to this point, but it troubles me that we might be losing sight of the specific and I think in some ways unresolved origin of this discussion as Tim's early responses are (in my opinion unfairly) taken out of the context that motivated them--Andrew's poem and Andrew's response to Tim's initial response--and placed in a very different context, i.e. the question raised about Pound's Cathay and John Yau and Stephen's more general questions about aesthetics, and so on. All of those are worthwhile discussions to have, but there is a way in which I am afraid they obfuscate the original issue, i.e., that Andrew's poem, before his later disclosures, appeared racist on its face and that Andrew needed to take responsibility for that. If we can agree that this issue has been resolved, then the rest of this discussion need no longer to keep referring back to Tim's response to Andrew and can become, simply and only, the larger discussion it has obviously already become.) >>I was, however, consciously using your question for different ends in asking if the translator--even or especially when trying to counteract racism (I believe that almost any act of translation is an act towards world peace)--is always open to attacks such as these.<< Okay, now the question is clear to me, and I think the answer is yes that a translator is always open to this charge because there is always likely to be someone who objects to what the translator has, consciously and unconsciously, done. This does not mean that all charges of racism, or whatever, are equally valid, nor does it mean that translators should therefore stop translating or that translators should try to toe some politically correct line when doing their work. It is simply to acknowledge that cross-cultural work of any sort is fraught with these kinds of issues, and I would argue it is better to tackle them head one than to question whether they should or should not exist/be foregrounded in our attention in the first place. Then later in his post, Lucas is responding my earlier laying out of the situation involving my own translation of Saadi into English. He makes a couple of points: 1. In response to my saying how important Saadi was to Emerson, Thoreau, etc: "This is a true testament to the power of translation! I don't care about the imperialist history of finding a translator for Persian literature as much as I care about other minds being able to access--even if just a little bit--part of the depths of another culture." 2. In response to my talking about how my translation will perpetuate the biases of Edward Rehatsek, the man from whose earlier translation I am working: "but Rich, don't you think that you're placing a grand assumption on Rehatsek's person by noting his biases? I'd never heard of him before you alerted me, but isn't it possible that he, like you, took on this task of translation for any number of reasons, and that perhaps, like you, racial, colonial, cultural, and other biases were unimportant? Granted, you have his language, his force-fitting of Muslim into Christian terminology, his lawnmowering of verse forms, and so on. But perhaps the ends justify the means: his work inspired Thoreau. And I think that is as much part of the heritage of your translation as anything else." What I'd like to say in response to this is that I do not think this is a matter of either/or, but rather of both/and. Yes, it is crucially important to acknowledge the importance of how Saadi, translated into English, inspired Emerson and Thoreau and made Persian culture and history accessible to many in the English-speaking world who were not writers, and I agree with Lucas that this kind of work is vitally important to creating global understanding, etc., and, yes, I hope that my own translation will become a part of that very large and very important project, but it is also true, and I would not wish to deny, that other forces beyond my control impinge on the project itself, and on my part in it, and on Rehatsek's part in it, and on the part of those who read Rehatsek and will, I hope, read my translation. These two aspects of translation, it seems to me, exist in a constant dialectic relationship with each other, and if we can speak plainly about the celebratory side--as I think we should in order to do it justice--then we should also speak as plainly about the other side, in which questions about what is being celebrated are raised, because we need to do those questions justice as well. Finally, Murat wrote: >>That a translation satisfies a need in the host language (or culture), to me, is indubitable. A translator should acknowledge that. Even the cultural attache who commissioned you is "more interested in finding a poet/writer who could produce the kind of text he (italics my own) wanted in English than he was in working with someone who is fluent in Farsi."<< This is a fascinating idea which, intuitively, I agree with, but I would love to talk more about. In my own case, the need in the host language/culture is clear and was articulated by the person who hired me, but what about people who translate whose translations are not commissioned by someone from the host culture, who choose to translate without that sort of impetus? How in that context do you find/define the need in the host culture? Okay, I think that's enough for now. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:02:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Dead / on Arrival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Dead / on Arrival wrong and terrible, I deserve to die my husband is dead and my wife is dead the last time i had sex was quick and mourning never since the past fast week coming to permission one sleazy meaning encounter of a junior and nondescript human being the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the digital is always already a mapping the digital is always doubly-encoded the real is infinite raster the integral calculus inheres within the analog the signature is analogous to the body the digital and analog chiasmus at the limit the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral technology is the substructure of the digital the analog is atemporal and time is analogical a sentence through every sentence a world through every world the digital is constructible what occurs at the limit analog of the digital, digital of the analog the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the digital is always already a mapping the digital is always doubly-encoded the real is infinite raster form is extruded raster the differential calculus inheres within the digital the signature is analogous to the body noise is parasitic enveloping the analog the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral a sentence through every sentence fluid mechanics of the analog and mechanics of the digital what occurs at the limit digital levels and homeostatic entities analog of the digital, digital of the analog the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the analog mapping is analogy the digital is always doubly-encoded the real is infinite raster the integral calculus inheres within the analog the differential calculus inheres within the digital the signature is analogous to the body inscribe in stone the analog matrix the digital and analog chiasmus at the limit noise is parasitic enveloping the analog the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral technology is the substructure of the digital from substance to analog and from analog to digital the analog is atemporal and time is analogical a sentence through every sentence a world through every world fluid mechanics of the analog and mechanics of the digital what occurs at the limit fundamental particles and biological neurons analog of the digital, digital of the analog the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the analog mapping is analogy the real is infinite raster form is extruded raster the differential calculus inheres within the digital the signature is analogous to the body inscribe in stone the analog matrix the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral the technological substructure temporally splays and leaks the analog is atemporal and time is analogical a sentence through every sentence a world through every world the digital is constructible what occurs at the limit analog of the digital, digital of the analog the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the analog mapping is analogy the real is infinite raster the integral calculus inheres within the analog the signature is analogous to the body the digital and analog chiasmus at the limit noise is parasitic enveloping the analog the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral technology is the substructure of the digital the technological substructure temporally splays and leaks the analog is atemporal and time is analogical a sentence through every sentence a world through every world fluid mechanics of the analog and mechanics of the digital digital levels and homeostatic entities material through and through analog of the digital, digital of the analog the digital is based on epistemology and uniformity the digital is always already a mapping the analog mapping is analogy the digital is always doubly-encoded the real is infinite raster form is extruded raster the integral calculus inheres within the analog the differential calculus inheres within the digital the signature is analogous to the body type is analogous to digital writing noise is parasitic enveloping the analog the digital is simultaneously eternal and ephemeral technology is the substructure of the digital the technological substructure temporally splays and leaks the analog is atemporal and time is analogical a sentence through every sentence a world through every world fluid mechanics of the analog and mechanics of the digital is analogous fluid limit the the ephemeral to analog the the the analog to technology digital the limit fluid analogous is digital and is and the body through digital the infinite digital to technological the the the sentence body digital the the eternal the noise to of the the mapping ephemeral to is signature the analog the to is is the the world analogous parasitic and is epistemology analog type every and the is the to substructure integral the body analogical body is digital substructure simultaneously of writing to the the of a and the atemporal is the the leaks to the always digital at every is parasitic the ephemeral technology on the type sentence analog digital real of to temporally calculus the the is the is is substructure is mechanics writing digital analog digital of already eternal the and analogous the within and to substructure doubly-encoded digital chiasmus through is enveloping digital ephemeral technology based the type a analog digital the substructure to splays inheres the to time the simultaneously always substructure is and digital digital and is substructure always simultaneously the time to the inheres splays to substructure the digital analog a type the based technology ephemeral digital enveloping is through chiasmus digital doubly-encoded substructure to and within the analogous and the eternal already of digital analog digital writing mechanics is substructure is is the is the the calculus temporally to of real digital analog sentence type the on technology ephemeral the parasitic is every at digital always the to leaks the the is atemporal the and a of the the to writing of simultaneously substructure digital is body analogical body the integral substructure to the is the and every type analog epistemology is and parasitic analogous world the the is is to the analog the signature is to ephemeral mapping the the of to noise the eternal the the digital body sentence the the the technological to digital infinite the digital through body the and is and digital is analogous fluid limit the digital technology to analog the the the analog to ephemeral the the limit fluid analogous is digital eternal the uniformity the body through digital the raster the to the raster the the sentence body the uniformity the eternal digital noise to mechanics limit the the ephemeral to is signature the analog the to technology digital the the world analogous is and _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:17:16 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Ghost Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List--It's Obon time in Japan and I'm compiling a data-base of modern/post modern poems that have to do with ghosts--either as subject, or as an excuse for questioning modes of perception (as in Emily Dickinson, for instance). I have examples here from Christopher Middleton and Seamus Heaney, but am looking for more. Any suggestions would be appreciated and would be duly cited in the data base and resulting publications. Thanks! Jesse Glass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit long day quick nite lone nife quick pome 3:00...ummmer...on the ropes...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit long day quick nite lone nife kwik pome... 3:10....mmmmm..down for the count....drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:33:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: ** NYC Small Presses Needed ** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what time on aug 5? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:44:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Peace Comes to the World MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nice thoughts lousy poem ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:05:50 -0400 Reply-To: Wald Reid Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wald Reid Subject: Reading in Pittsburgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Gist Street Reading Series ("It's not about suffering.") is teaming = up with Verse Press on July 17, 2004, to produce "Versapalooza," a Verse = Press poetry sampler and barbecue, at James Simon's Sculpture Studio, = 305 Gist St. Pittsburgh, PA. Socializing begins around 7:30. Reading = starts at 8:00. Readers are Peter Richards, Diane Wald, Lori Shine, = Christian Hawkey, and Eric Baus. Directions and other good details at = the website, http://www.closkey.com/giststreet/index.html. $3 suggested = donation. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Lederer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Could someone backchannel Katy Lederer's address? I had Henry St., but it bounced F.O.E. Thanks, Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:34:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Danon Subject: Re: Ghost Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jesse -- this falls into the category of shameless self promotion, but my poem featuring ghosts "Long After Mallarme" appeared in Best American Poetry 2002 edited by Robert Creeley. Also another of my ditties "Hypothetical" which appeared in 3rd Bed feaqtures some ghostly actvity though no literal ghosts. Hope this is helpful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Glass" To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 1:17 AM Subject: Ghost Poems > Dear List--It's Obon time in Japan and I'm compiling a data-base of > modern/post modern poems that have to do with ghosts--either as subject, > or as an excuse for questioning modes of perception (as in Emily > Dickinson, for instance). I have examples here from Christopher > Middleton and Seamus Heaney, but am looking for more. Any suggestions > would be appreciated and would be duly cited in the data base and > resulting publications. Thanks! Jesse Glass ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:04:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Henry A. Lazer" Subject: Fwd: VQR Guantanamo Exclusive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just received information about this extraordinary article. If you go to the link, you'll find that it's a lengthy article, but a thorough exploration of the outrageous development of the Bush policies in Guantanamo. The Supreme Court's response to the case is somewhat surprising (and heartening). Thought Poetics List folks might be interested. Hank Lazer ----- Forwarded message from vqreview@virginia.edu ----- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:20:02 -0400 (EDT) From: vqreview@virginia.edu Reply-To: vqreview@virginia.edu Subject: VQR Guantanamo Exclusive To: hlazer@bama.ua.edu ------VQR_xxxxxx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GREETINGS TO ALL! It's my distinct pleasure to invite you to visit VQR's important new web exclusive: "A Prison beyond the Law," an essay by Joseph Margulies, lead counsel for the plaintiff in Rasul v. Bush, forthcoming in our Fall 2004 issue. Margulies has produced for us—only ten days after the Supreme Court rendered its ruling—a brilliant and thorough work that is sure to be the standard point of reference when historians return to this case and the aftermath of September 11 generally. It seems to us so important that we couldn't wait until September to share it with you. Read it, and we think you will agree. Margulies writes of the Bush administration's now-infamous Guantanamo memos: "If the jurisdiction memo placed the prisoners beyond the protection of the federal courts, it was the Geneva Convention memo that literally placed them beyond the law. In this memo, [administration attorneys] Yoo and Philbin constructed an elaborate argument that the prisoners at Guantanamo were not entitled to the protections of either the Geneva Convention, or customary international law.... In the years to come, much will be written about these memos, and the others that followed in their wake. There is, for instance, an undeniable Alice In Wonderland quality to some of the reasoning: in the first memo, Yoo and Philbin argued that Guantanamo was beyond the jurisdiction of a United States court because it is outside our sovereignty. Yet in a later memo, Administration lawyers argued that because Guantanamo is within the United States, Executive officials are not constrained by federal laws against torture, since they operate only in a foreign country. Reasoning like this is apparently the price of a dance with the devil." Follow THIS LINK to go to the essay: http://www.virginia.edu/vqr/page.php/prmID/59 -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:12:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: Ghost Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jesse - And let's not forget James Merrill's awesome and engaging volumes of THE CHANGING LIGHT AT SANDOVER - populated by Auden, et al..... talking via Ouija board ...... Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:16:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Ghost Poems In-Reply-To: <8c.f54f650.2e217d71@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I mentioned Spicer b/c - but Helen Adam, too, is genuinely spooked by spooks. And great! Stephen V > Jesse - > And let's not forget James Merrill's awesome and engaging volumes of THE > CHANGING LIGHT AT SANDOVER - populated by Auden, et al..... talking via Ouija > board ...... > Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:36:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Sawyer Subject: Re: CITIZEN BUSH Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed "WITNESS" TO A REPUBLICAN TODAY...SOON IT MAY BE TOO LATE! ENGAGE A REPUBLICAN IN CONVERSATION TODAY AND ARM YOURSELF WITH THE FACTS. TELL THEM THAT IT'S A GREAT IDEA THAT THE SAUDI ROYAL FAMILY RUNS OUR COUNTRY AND THAT THE DRAFT SHOULD BE REINSTATED. THEN SHAKE THEIR HAND FIRMLY AND TELL THEM THAT IT'LL BE A FINE DAY WHEN ALL OUR CIVIL RIGHTS ARE GONE FOREVER! WE ARE PROUD SERVANTS OF A FASCIST SOCIETY-- THIS SHOULD BE YOUR FINAL COMMENT. ACT HAPPY! http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/10/bush.radio/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:56:19 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: FW: Computer Ate My Vote Day of Action Comments: To: ImitaPo , Lucifer Poetics Group , WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rallies are scheduled for the following locations: San Diego, CA; Denver, CO; Hartford, CT; Ft. Lauderdale, FL; Fort Myers, FL; New Port Richey, FL; Sarasota, FL; Tallahassee, FL; Tampa, FL; West Palm Beach, FL; Indianapolis, IN; Frankfort, KY; Annapolis, MD; Trenton, NJ; Santa Fe, NM; Albany, NY; Raleigh, NC; Columbus, OH; Philadelphia, PA; Columbia, SC; Austin, TX; Salt Lake City, UT; Everett, WA; Madison, WI Find specific information on rally timing, locations, and other details at the Nationwide "Computer Ate My Vote" Day of Action web portal: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/ -----Original Message----- From: Notable Voting [mailto:notable@notablesoftware.com] Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 4:30 PM To: NotableVoting@topica.com Subject: Computer Ate My Vote Day of Action This Tuesday, July 13, supporters of auditable voting will be holding public outreach events in at least 24 cities across the USA. These events are intended to raise awareness of legislators to the need for alternative balloting solutions in the counties where fully-automated (DRE) voting systems will be deployed for November's election. The DRE systems, expected to be used by 30% of voters this year, provide no way in which an independent recount can be performed from individual ballots. (For a humorous but true look at this, see: .) Citizens need to ensure that state laws and county regulations will permit the use of paper ballots (such as the optically scanned ones typically used for absentee voters) by any registered voter who requests such at the polls. Ultimately, all self-auditing machines should be recalled and retrofitted (as California will be doing by 2006). Thankfully, more than 50% of the USA continues to vote on paper, the only currently authorized method whereby a voter can confirm that their vote has been recorded as intended, and that can be independently recounted without machine assistance if questions arise as to the integrity of the scanning equipment or software. Paper ballots can be inexpensively made disabled and non-English reading accessible (a fact some paid lobbysts do not want people to know) -- see the links on my website at . Further information about the Day of Action is below, follow the web link for local details. If your city is not on the list, do consider creating your own event, or just contact legislators and election officials to let them know your concerns about ballot verification and recount capabilities for the election equipment planned for use this Fall. Do urge your US congressional representative to co-sign Rush Holt's bill if he/she has not already done so. Feel free to copy and distribute my brochure "Facts about Voter Verified Paper Ballots" also on my website. Thanks in advance for your support, Rebecca Mercuri. NATIONWIDE "COMPUTER ATE MY VOTE" DAY OF ACTION VerifiedVoting.org Invites You to Join Voters in Your Area Asking Election Officials to Pledge to Count All Votes PLEASE JOIN US TUESDAY - Check the map to see if there is a rally near you and join in! Map: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/ Grassroots America: Take a stand for election integrity this Tuesday, July 13, when supporters of voter-verified paper ballots (VVPBs) rally and meet with the press in 24 cities nationwide. Participants and local organizers will ask state and local election officials to demonstrate their commitment to accurate and verifiable elections by signing a "Pledge for Election Integrity." In addition, attendees will present petitions from concerned voters insisting on VVPBs. This allows voters to confirm that their votes are recorded as they intend, and elections officials to have a clear confirmation of the voters' intent for counts, audits, and recounts. A nationwide coalition of organizations came together to support these events with outreach, promotion, and petitions by the hundreds of thousands: VerifiedVoting.org, TrueMajority.org, Democracy For America, Common Cause, Electronic Frontier Foundation, MoveOn.org, Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility, Working Assets, and National Coalition for Voting Integrity. Rallies are scheduled for the following locations: San Diego, CA; Denver, CO; Hartford, CT; Ft. Lauderdale, FL; Fort Myers, FL; New Port Richey, FL; Sarasota, FL; Tallahassee, FL; Tampa, FL; West Palm Beach, FL; Indianapolis, IN; Frankfort, KY; Annapolis, MD; Trenton, NJ; Santa Fe, NM; Albany, NY; Raleigh, NC; Columbus, OH; Philadelphia, PA; Columbia, SC; Austin, TX; Salt Lake City, UT; Everett, WA; Madison, WI (If no rally is taking place in your vicinity, please take a moment to have a "virtual rally" -- visit your state page at VerifiedVoting.org and contact your lawmakers to ask them to co-sponsor VVPB legislation!) Find specific information on rally timing, locations, and other details at the Nationwide "Computer Ate My Vote" Day of Action web portal: http://www.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/ --- please forward this email widely --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Biblio Citation for 'Composition by Field' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm looking for a bibliographic citation for the term Composition by Field. I'm having trouble coming up with one, to my utter astonishment. The first question is *to whom* should the term be attributed? I always attributed it to Duncan. Those of us fortunate enough to hear Duncan speak absorbed the term pretty much my osmosis -- he spoke of it quite frequently. A Google search is turning up lots of "references" to the term, but no citations, and people seem to be attributing it to Olson as often as to Duncan -- which I don't think is really right. Is there somewhere in Duncan's writings where he explains this? It wouldn't be so strange if there weren't. At a reading once I went up to him and asked where in the writings of Pound I could find Pound's explanation of the term "tone leading vowels", which Duncan also spoke about rather often. To my complete astonishment, he said that it wasn't anywhere! Apparently Pound used the term in letters to Duncan and just assumed Duncan would know what he meant; Duncan was pretty much left to figure it out for himself. Surely the term applies to Olson as well as Duncan, but I'm under the impression that Olson didn't really use the term himself. Am I wrong about that?? Any refs gratefully accepted. The paper I'm writing is meant for computer science types as well as lit / humanities folks. --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kimberly Bird Subject: Carl Rakosi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested in Carl Rakosi's life and work: I am finishing up the edits on the transcript of a 19-hour life-history interview with Rakosi that I conducted in the summer and fall of 2002 for the Regional Oral History Office (ROHO) at UC Berkeley. The transcript will soon be available through the Bancroft archive at UCB and Special Collections at UCLA and will eventually be on-line. Some of the video from this interview will be accessible through the ROHO website in the next few weeks (http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/). The interview covers his life as a poet and as a social worker with equal attention. Among the topics we discussed were the history of poetry in the U.S. in comparison to other countries, his affiliation with the Communist Party, his experiences in the Depression, his thoughts on the objectivists, the evolution of social work and the field of psychology, retreats at Yaddo, summer sessions at Naropa, the media's handling of the WTC catastrophe in historical context, and his criticisms of Bush and Sharon. One of the most developed and interesting trajectories that emerges in the interview was on the global history of Jewish people's experiences. He talked about the history of Jews in Hungary, his opinion of the differences among Jews from different parts of the world, his understanding of Hungarian Jewish humor, the contribution of Jews to societies, the genocide, the creation of Israel, and the history of anti-Semitism as it changed over the decades in the US. Here are three excerpts from the interview on different topics: When we were talking about lyric and meditative poetry, Carl brought up the idea of "sincerity." This is a term that Zukofsky used in his initial Poetry Mag. essay about the objectivists, and Carl sees this as a test of truly successful poetry. "You're using metaphors a lot in that kind of poetry, and it's easy to fall into affectations of different kinds. You want to make it as dramatic as possible, so you push that. You want to make it as profound as possible, so you use words to express profundity. But also, what is important here, and that has to do more with sincerity--it has to be what you really feel, and not what you inherited from some book--without any affectation. It has to be honest. Probably the word honest would be a little better than sincerity--honesty. I think, in that sense, all of the Objectivists had that. I think they had it probably in part because they were immigrants or of immigrant background. They were serious. They weren't playing games; they weren't trying to be coy, like cummings for example. They weren't trying to be clever, which again is a kind of trickery of real intellect. They were just expressing what they were feeling, what they were thinking." On a different day we were discussing a news story about rebels in Chechnya holding people hostage in a theater. He was elated by the news. "The whole world is sort of changing back in some ways. I notice for example that the mothers and wives and sisters of people who had been imprisoned by... Saddam Hussein were out on the streets. Now, I never would have imagined that they would have dared to do that. Human nature, you can only push it that far, even in the most despotic situations. It is going to rise up. So, maybe we can be a little optimistic about what could happen now... The whole world situation has become so interesting, so complex. You never thought before that you could look at the whole world, and see what everybody everywhere is doing, and how they are being affected by each other. It has never happened before. So, we are into a new period in world history it seems to me, which affects each person individually, because he is aware of this. This is something new that is being brought into his consciousness. I wish young people were perceiving this in this country, because I noticed just in today's paper that the people who are voting are not young people--two to one, they're older people, in their forties. Two to one. Where are the young people? What are they thinking? Are they so cynical that they don't want to vote? Are they so absorbed in their own personal problems and lives that they are indifferent? Studies should be made of that. But anyhow, it's great to be alive." Having spent an afternoon with Carl going over his edits for this interview just a couple of months ago, I am still in a kind of shock that he has passed over. Of course it's ridiculous--he was heading into his 101st birthday but he showed no signs when I saw him last of illness or even of old age if you ask me. Around the time of his 99th birthday he realized that he was 3 times older than I was. He said "I don't know what it's like to feel ninety-nine. Well, a young person can't imagine what that could be... the whole thing is unbelievable. We'll say I'm not really ninety-nine." Finally, I am wondering if anyone can confirm, perhaps Michael Heller, the rumor that was floating around the National Poetry Foundation's conference in Maine that Carl's departing words were "Bush, that bastard." I'd appreciate knowing. Thanks, Kim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: Biblio Citation for 'Composition by Field' In-Reply-To: <249979861.1089492407@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --On Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:46 PM -0400 Jim Rosenberg wrote: > Those of us fortunate enough to hear Duncan speak > absorbed the term pretty much my osmosis Aargh, I meant to say "by osmosis" ... -- I can't proofread off the screen worth a lick. --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Biblio Citation for 'Composition by Field' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit olson has an essay on open field writing? seems it's his thing is that what the issue title of book escapes me -- universe/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:22:34 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a cock do dawn...drn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:04:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: RE Composition by Field MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found an excerpt from Olson's PROJECTIVE VERSE that mentions composition by field. Here's the link: http://www.poetspath.com/transmissions/messages/olson.html Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:16:42 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Paolo Javier Please Contact Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Back channel, please. We need to connect about promoting the book(s). Jess ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:31:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Dahlias/Golden Gate Park/Names Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone visiting San Francisco or living in the Bay Area may want to take advantage of the "Dahlia Garden" just to the east of the rebuilt Conservatory - on Kennedy Drive not far inside the entrance of the Park. The garden - protected by a low iron fence - is about 50 feet long and 15 feet wide. Every seemingly imaginable possible Dahlia - complete with name tag - is in "utter" full bloom. It is, as one might used to say, an "automatic stoner" - wall to wall flowers in a robust, incredible variety of shapes and colors. Like the Huntington Library etc Rose Garden with it's "General McArthur" rose - the Dahlia's here have some off the wall names, including, my favorite, one called, "Franz Kafka"! I don't know what the experience is called when the name of something is so far removed from its subject (or object) so that the name disorients the whole experience of looking - but the Franz Kafka Dahlia (this week) takes 'the cake'. The Dahlia, first native to the northern tropics (Guatemala, lower Mexico) was given the name by a nineteenth century Swede, Frederick Dahl, who perhaps never thought to ask the locals for its indigenous name. A rose is a rose is a... Stephen V Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:10:44 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: They Must Be Stopped Comments: To: ImitaPo , Alex Verhoeven , Janet@proximate.org, Giles Hendrix , Gigi Lefevre , Fred Stutzman , Michael Herron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/politics_election_terr or_dc These pigs are going to blow something up through their #1 asset (the punks labeled as al Quaeda) in order to suspend elections. ******************** January 30, 1933 Weimar Republic President Paul von Hindenburg appoints Adolph Hitler Chancellor. December 11, 2000 The Supreme Court appoints Bush as President. ******************** February 27, 1933 The German Parliament (Reichstag) burns down. A dazed Dutch Communist named Marinus van der Lubbe is found at the scene and charged with arson. [He is later found guilty and executed]. Sept. 11, 2001 The Pentagon and the WTC are attacked and before the US military can respond to the hijackings Osama bin Laden is blamed for the attacks by the media. TBD, 2004 Something blows up and scares the *@#$ out of America once again. You can count on it. They're already preparing us. (See above link.) ******************** February 28, 1933 President Hindenburg and Chancellor Hitler invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution, which permits the suspension of civil liberties in time of national emergency. This Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the People and State abrogates the following constitutional protections: * Free expression of opinion * Freedom of the press * Right of assembly and association * Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications * Protection against unlawful searches and seizures * Individual property rights * States' right of self-government A supplemental decree creates the SA (Storm Troops) and SS (Special Security) Federal police agencies. October 26, 2001, Bush signs into law H.R. 3162, the USA PATRIOT Act. November 25, 2002 Bush signs into law the Homeland Security act. November 2, 2004 Bush suspends the election. A later "enabling" act allows Bush to appoint himself dictator. ******************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:38:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Myself I Sing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Begin forwarded message: > From: "T_Martin" > Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:33:23 PM US/Pacific > terra1@sonic.net > Subject: Shameless Plug > > > Hedgerow Theatre will present a staged reading of Of > Myself I Sing, a new play by Tim Martin of Bryn Mawr > at 7:30 p.m. on Tuesday, July 27 at Hedgerow House, > 146 W Rose Valley Road, Rose Valley. > The new script takes a look at the life of America's > pioneer poet, Walt Whitman, as seen through his famous > work Leaves of Grass. Whitman became one of the > America's most important poets after the civil war. > In his later life, he toured the country, lecturing > about Abraham Lincoln, who insprired much of > Whitman=92s democratic, open verse. > Admission is $5 and a discussion with the playwright > will follow the reading. For more information or > directions to Hedgerow House, call 610-565-4211. > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:32:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Writers' Workshop/ Relocation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please Post & SPREAD! ======= BE ADVISED! New Address: Next Writers' Workshop [If you plan to show, please acknowledge receipt of this email.] ======= 1st & 3rd Saturdays Writers' Workshop with Louis Reyes Rivera Poetry, Fiction, Nonfiction, Essays Basics & Advanced Saturday, July 17, 2004 12 noon will take place at: 1392 Union Street (btwn Brooklyn & Kingston Aves.) Take the #3 train to Kingston Ave. [For those who drive: Take Eastern Parkway to Brooklyn Ave., one block to Union Street] ===PLUS=== Have Sound System... Will Travel Musicians, Poets, Performance Artists Make sure your Sound comes across The way you intended! Masujaa, an experienced musician and sound engineer with State of the Art Equipment is available for gigs, festivals and weddings and will go where you are. Reasonable Rates! Call (516) 485 1269 &/or (516) 410 9683 email: MASCOOL2K@aol.com DON'T LEAVE YOUR SOUND TO CHANCE! ===PLUS=== Invitation to join the kamsaia group From: kamsaia-owner@yahoogroups.com mmar@kamsaia.com has invited you to join the kamsaia group! (This invitation will expire in 7 days.) Kam Saia Publishing (www.kamsaia.com) is devoted to providing quality literature by and about people of African descent in order to raise consciousness through a variety of themes that are based on a spiritual foundation. We began publishing because we wanted to provide important books that will help in positive ways to shape people's experience through a unique understanding of the world. Kam Saia Publishing is dedicated to bringing the reading public books that encourage creativity, inspire thinking, engender dignity and stimulate informed critical dialogue concerning issues of spirituality, race, gender, culture, politics, and social health. Our pledge and steadfast goal is to remain committed to giving insightful, innovative works by and about people of the African Diaspora a platform. We will strive to bring Black literature and thought to the center of the literary community, thereby solidifying our position as one of the most important publishers of progressive Black discourse today. ===PLUS=== Tune in to WBAI (99.5fm or www.wbai.org) Thursdays, 2pm Louis Reyes Rivera Perspective ======= Contact: Louisreyesrivera@aol.com 718 622 4426 ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:36:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: PUB: work by native american poets sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PUB: work by native american poets sought ==================================== > *Shenandoah: The Washington and Lee University Review* will publish > a special selection of poetry by Native American writers in its Winter, > 2004 issue. The section will include approximately 40 pages of poetry > and one essay. All poets of Native American origin are eligible to send > work for consideration. Send manuscript, along with bio notes, to > Shenandoah, Special Issues Editor/Native American Poetry, Mattingly > House, 2 Lee Avenue, Washington and Lee University, Lexington, VA > 24450-0303. Submissions must be received by August 15, 2004. General > writers’ guidelines and other information about Shenandoah are > available on the Shenandoah website: http://shenandoah.wlu.edu. > ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:19:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Call your Senators to oppose the FMA! In-Reply-To: <000201c46793$e9db3fd0$6400a8c0@pearl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take Action! Call your Senators to oppose the FMA! CALL YOUR SENATOR: 1-877-762-8762! And then let us know that you called by quickly completing the information on this page so we can keep count. What to say when youcall...Use your own words, or use ours: "My name is YOUR NAME from YOUR ADDRESS. I am calling to urge the Senator to oppose the Federal Marriage Amendment when it comes to a vote next week. The proposed amendment to our founding document is unnecessary, discriminatory, and undermines the principles upon which our Constitution was written. As my elected official in Congress, I hope that you will concentrate on more important matters such as the struggling economy, the war in Iraq, and health care, rather than devoting time to a discriminatory, unnecessary amendment. Thank you." Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ela kotkowska Subject: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New York Times Magazine and the history of a genre:: "You can't pinpoint it exactly, but there was a moment when people more or less stopped reading poetry and turned instead to novels, which just a few generations earlier had been considered entertainment suitable only for idle ladies of uncertain morals. The change had surely taken hold by the heyday of Dickens and Tennyson, which was the last time a poet and a novelist went head to head on the best-seller list. Someday the novel, too, will go into decline -- if it hasn't already -- and will become, like poetry, a genre treasured and created by just a relative few." in 'Not Funnies' by Charles McGrath http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/magazine/11GRAPHIC.html ~ela kot | no comment ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:09:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. i hate to eat a dead horse but today i saw a t-shirt pass by with a variation of cauc(asian) written on it something to the effect once you've tasted ASIAN you'll never return to Caucasian it was worn by someone of -- dare i say -- eastern per su asian is it not therefore racist or a harmless in-joke a matter of pride ( however false ) or as when a how/to/put/it correctly ( as in political ) an african-american calls another black man NIGGER & it is thought of in the 'HOOD as just a friendly greeting? 2. there is something terribly w/the surtax of that meant state or me today talking about the difference between a jew who is a spendthrift ( unlikely ) and a thrifty jew or is that just plain cheap ( that's me a cheap jew ) there i've said it it's o.k. as long as a gentile didn't say it. 3. maria callas had her heart broken more than twice as call the all cast o morn a gentle cracking tiles of song this was her death maria said the other died not the greek from the boroughs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:26:39 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: licktenberg@WEB.DE Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: Re: Biblio Citation for 'Composition by Field' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, it's in olson's "projective verse" (in _selected essays_, i think, for example) "First, some simplicities that man learns, if he works in OPEN, or what can also be called COMPOSITION BY FIELD, as opposed to inherited line, stanza, over-all form, what is the "old" base of the non-projective." (p. 16) and: "From the moment he [the poet] enters into FIELD COMPOSITION--puts himself in the open--he can go by no track other than the one the poem under hand declares, for itself." (p. 16) best, Henrike ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:41:39 -0600 Reply-To: Rebecca Seiferle Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Seiferle Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well,perhaps 'someday' is closer than 'we' think, at least as far as the new NEA study about the decline of literary reading goes. The entire article cn be read in The Chronicle, www.chronicle.com, but here's the first paragraph and a later quote: Literary Reading Is Declining Faster Than Before, Arts Endowment's New Report Says By SCOTT MCLEMEE The populace of the United States may be divided by race, age, gender, region, income, and educational level. But according to a report released on Thursday by the National Endowment for the Arts, there is at least one thing that brings us all together: No group reads as much literature as it once did. If present trends continue, our aliteracy will only deepen over the next generation. After all, the steepest decline in reading has occurred among young adults, ages 18 to 24. .. "Reading at Risk" states that the trends among young readers (or, perhaps, nonreaders) suggest that "unless some effective solution is found, literary culture, and literacy in general, will continue to worsen." "Indeed, at the current rate of loss," it says, "literary reading as a leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." Best, Rebecca Seiferle -----Original Message----- From: ela kotkowska Sent: Jul 12, 2004 12:44 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale New York Times Magazine and the history of a genre:: "You can't pinpoint it exactly, but there was a moment when people more or less stopped reading poetry and turned instead to novels, which just a few generations earlier had been considered entertainment suitable only for idle ladies of uncertain morals. The change had surely taken hold by the heyday of Dickens and Tennyson, which was the last time a poet and a novelist went head to head on the best-seller list. Someday the novel, too, will go into decline -- if it hasn't already -- and will become, like poetry, a genre treasured and created by just a relative few." in 'Not Funnies' by Charles McGrath http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/11/magazine/11GRAPHIC.html ~ela kot | no comment ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:08:17 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rashid off the break sorrow songs field holler jass 'er lower 40 b.. be..bea..beat ali... 4:00...drums of nite...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:57:40 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Name one poet who is not well known whom you admire - One? What about hundreds? (On d alexander, John Gorham & especially Seymour Faust) On finishing The Alphabet Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Chris Stroffolino on Michael Moore & Bowling for Columbine Censoring blogs in South Korea Gael Turnbull, RIP Evocation of the lost world: the Berkeley poetry scene at the end of World War I Fahrenheit 9/11: Fair & ultimately balanced Judson Crews: A "New American" poet of the Southwest http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Blog....Blog... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just tried 2wice to get on Ron S.'s blog.. to get some info on Sy Faust..but was denied entry 2wice by pop up blockers from costofwar.com..seems me & my computer don't know the right $$$$.. flattered to have so much attention paid to my pol views..but is this a generic problemo...or is the fault all my own..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Reeves Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i enjoyed this per su asian - - clever ============================================================ From: Steve Dalachinksy Date: 2004/07/12 Mon AM 03:09:49 EDT To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE 1. i hate to eat a dead horse but today i saw a t-shirt pass by with a variation of cauc(asian) written on it something to the effect once you've tasted ASIAN you'll never return to Caucasian it was worn by someone of -- dare i say -- eastern per su asian is it not therefore racist or a harmless in-joke a matter of pride ( however false ) or as when a how/to/put/it correctly ( as in political ) an african-american calls another black man NIGGER & it is thought of in the 'HOOD as just a friendly greeting? 2. there is something terribly w/the surtax of that meant state or me today talking about the difference between a jew who is a spendthrift ( unlikely ) and a thrifty jew or is that just plain cheap ( that's me a cheap jew ) there i've said it it's o.k. as long as a gentile didn't say it. 3. maria callas had her heart broken more than twice as call the all cast o morn a gentle cracking tiles of song this was her death maria said the other died not the greek from the boroughs ============================================================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:43:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: CIA Proprietary Prison Mistakenly Found Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ CIA Proprietary Prison Mistakenly Found: Afghanistan. Iraq. Draft Imminent. War Profiteers Making Money Hand Over Fist. Not Since The Bungle In The Jungle Have Things Felt So Right! by Haggaweigh Crankenstanker & Michael Hand As Lies For War Erode, Search To Find An International Willie Horton Looms Large: Washington Post Decrees That Rich White People Can't Lie; They Can Only Make Mistakes: Geppettocrats To Meet In Washington For 'Big Lie' Seminar; Berlin 1933 Upstaged By Cheney Administration: Poll Shows American Public Is Elated That Cheney And Rumsfeld Stole All That Oil From Iraq: 'Spite' Expected To Propel The Cheney/Bush Ticket To An Easy Victory In November: by Donna Shitbank and Waldo Punkass ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:04:22 -0400 Reply-To: Mike Kelleher Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Organization: Just Buffalo Literary Center Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 7-12-04 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IF ALL OF BUFFALO READ THE SAME BOOK SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Arundhati Roy will perform two major public events, as well as a "meet and greet" book signing in Buffalo on September 8 and 9, 2004. Tickets for both events will be available beginning August 1 at Just Buffalo, The Western New York Peace Center, and Talking Leaves Books. Tickets may be purchased with a credit card over the phone by calling Just Buffalo at 716.832.5400. On "The God of Small Things" Wednesday, September 8, 2004, 8 p.m. Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood Avenue, Corner of Ferry, in Buffalo. Admission $10. Hear Arundhati Roy read from her Booker Prize-winning novel and answer questions from the audience about the book. Co-sponsored by the Women's Studies Department at SUNY Buffalo. "Meet and Greet" Book Signing with Arundhati Roy Thursday, September 9, 2004 12-2 p.m. Talking Leaves Bookstore, 3158 Main St., Buffalo. Free. Come get your book signed and say hello to Arundhati Roy at Buffalo's finest independent bookstore. "Another World is Possible: A Conversation with Arundhati Roy," moderated by Amy Goodman. Thursday, September 9, 2004, 8 p.m. First Presbyterian Church, One Symphony Circle, Across from Kleinhahn's Music Hall, Admission, $10. In addition to being a great writer, Arundhati Roy is also recognized worldwide as an essayist and vigilant voice in the ongoing struggle against political and economic oppression. Come hear her discuss her work in the global political arena with Democracy Now host, Amy Goodman. Co-Sponsored by the Western New York Peace Center. Books will be for sale at both events from Talking Leaves Books. The reader's guide for this year's book, The God of Small Things, by Arundhati Roy, is now available as a free download on the Just Buffalo website. Sponsors of this year's event include The Visions for a Better World Committee of the WNY Peace Center, The Women's Studies Department at UB, Parkview Health Services, 10,000 Villages, Talking Leaves Books, The National Endowment for the Arts, The New York State Council on the Arts, Erie County Cultural Funding, and Rigidized Metals. WORKSHOPS SNEAK PEEK AT FALL WORKSHOPS JUST ADDED: Playwriting Basics, with Kurt Schneiderman 6 Tuesdays, October 5-November 9 $175, $150 for members A weekly workshop open to novice and experienced playwrights who want to develop their playwriting abilities through actual writing and in-class feed back. Bring in new or old work to be read aloud and critiqued by everyone involved in the workshop. Course will include readings from various classic theatre texts and discussion of playwriting structure and theory. You can expect to emerge from this course with some written and workshopped dialogue, and with an introduction to the overall theoretical framework for dramatic writing. Kurt Schneiderman is currently Dramaturg for the Buffalo Ensemble Theatre, the coordinator of the annual new play competition at the Area Playwrights' Performance Series, and Director of the new play, forum Play Readings & Stuff. Named one of "Buffalo's emerging young playwrights" by Gusto Magazine and Buffalo's "next A.R. Gurney" by Artvoice Magazine, Kurt was the winner of the Helen Mintz Award for Best New Play (2003) and was nominated for the Artie Award for Outstanding New Play (2004). Most recently, one of Kurt's plays was chosen for the 2004 Toronto Fringe Festival. Writing For Children and Teenagers, with Harriet K. Feder 4 Saturdays Oct 2, 9, 23, 30, 12 p.m. - 2 p.m. $135, $110 for members Is that story for kids you long to write cowering inside your head? Is it gasping for air beneath the clutter in your desk? Then it's time to come out of the drawer. Learn to capture your readers with an intriguing "Hook;" build Believable Characters; use a single Point Of View, Identify a Conflict, Show Rather Than Tell and Market your work to an editor. Harriet K. Feder, a former editor of Tom Thumb's Magazine and instructor for the Institute of Children's Literature has published books for everyone from toddlers to teens in the US and abroad.. Her most recent young adult novel, Death On Sacred Ground was a 2002 nominee for both Edgar and Agatha awards; a Sidney Taylor Notable Book; a Children's Literature Choice; and a New York Public Library Teen Choice. Her writing has won her a Woman of Accomplishment Legacy Project Award along with such other Western New York notables as Lucille Ball, Joyce Carol Oates, Virginia Kroll, and Gerda Klein. She is a member of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators, Mystery Writers of America, Sisters in Crime, Author's Guild, and Pennwriters of PA. The Working Writer Seminar, with Kathryn Radeff Four Saturday workshops: September 18, October 16, November 13, December 11 Whole seminar: $175, $150 for members. Single Saturday session: $50, $40 for members Turn Your Travel Experiences Into Articles for Newspapers and Magazines September 18 Writing & Selling Short Stories October 16 Writing Magazine & Newspaper Features: Learn the Methods & Markets, November 13 The Art & Craft of Creative Nonfiction, December 11 Kathryn Radeff's work has appeared in local, regional and national magazines and newspapers, including Woman's World, Instructor, American Fitness, Personal Journaling, The Daytona Beach News Journal, and The Buffalo News and Buffalo Spree. For the past 25 years, she has worked extensively as an educator emphasizing a creative approach to getting published. On Novel Writing, with Linda Lavid 6 Saturdays, September 25, October 2, 9, 23, 30, November 6 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. $175, $150 for members Time to brush off that manuscript somewhere buried, take the plunge, and make the commitment to write the great American novel. Yes, the brass ring can be yours, but first you must write the story. For both veterans and novi ces, this seminar will present the critical foundations necessary to assist you in writing a novel. Topics include: developing plots, building character, generating scenes and, finally, how to make it all make sense. Linda Lavid is author of Rented Rooms. Here work has appeared in The Southern Cross Review, Plots With Guns, Wilmington Blues, and Over Coffee. Poet As Architect, with Marj Hahne One Saturday Session, November 20, 12-5 p.m. $50, $40 for members Li-Young Lee says that poetry has two mediums-language and silence-and that language (the material) inflects silence (the immaterial) so that we can experience (hear) our inner space. In this workshop, we will step outside our familiar poetic homes and build new dwellings (temples and taverns!), utilizing such timber as sound patterns, found text, and invented forms. We will explore the structural possibilities of language to ultimately answer the question: How does form serve content? Both beginning and practiced poets will generate lots of original writing from this full day of language play and experimentation, and will bring home a fresh eye with which to revisit old poems stuck in the draft stage. Marj Hahne is a poet and teaching artist who has performed and taught extensively around the country. Her work has appeared in Paterson Literary Review, Painted Bride Quarterly, Schuylkill Valley Journal of the Arts, Mad Poets Review, and La Petite Zine. She also has a CD titled notspeak. For more information, or to register, call 832-5400 or download the registration form from our website at www.justbuffalo.org OPEN READINGS, HOSTED BY LIVIO FARALLO Readings begin at 7 p.m. There are ten slots for open readers. Signups begin at 6:45. All readings are free and open to the public. Notice: Beginning, July 14, 2004, readings on the 2nd Wednesday of the month will move from the Center for Inquiry in Amherst into the Hibiscus Room. The Hibiscus Room is located in the Tri-Main Center, 2495 Main St., Ste. 512. Michael Basinski Wednesday, July 14, 8 P.M. Just Buffalo Literary Center The Hibiscus Room, 2495 Main St., Buffalo, NY Western New York legend and performance icon Mike Basinski is curator of the University at Buffalo's Poetry Collection and author of numerous works including Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes in the Arizona Desert, heka, and most recently Poems, Popeye, Papyrus and DREALFT. Mike says, "Brain size is important in cubic centimeters. Deafness rarely covers everything." Rosemary Kothe Thursday, July 15, 7 P.M. The Book Corner, 1801 Main St., Niagara Falls, NY Rosemary Kothe is the author of 4 chapbooks: Let's Put the Sky Upon the Ground, Journey Without End, In the Memory of a Single Rose, and Ashes of Remembrance. In addition to these publications, Rosemary's work has appeared in Reflections, Radiance, Slipstream, ARTVOICE, and The Buffalo News. Rosemary also hosts readings at The Screening Room and Impact Artists Gallery where faces that we can't see and lips that don't move demand that we listen to them because they look like us anyway. Dave Lewitzky Sunday, July 18, 7 P.M. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen Street, Buffalo, NY Dave Lewitzky is a retired social worker and a writer who gave up writing 35 years ago only to rediscover it approximately 2 years ago. Dave says, "Writing is an intense, serious process and very meaningful to me when it happens. There are times when the tawdry is incomplete but sufficient to excite me anyway. Those times are meaningful, also." For more information, or to become a sponsor, please call us at 832-5400 or visit the website at www.justbuffalo.org. MEMBERSHIP CAMPAIGN SIGNED, LIMITED EDITION ROBERT CREELEY BROADSIDE AVAILABLE As part of the spring membership campaign, Just Buffalo is offering a special membership gift to the first fifty people who join at a level of $50 or more after May 1. In addition to membership at Just Buffalo, which includes discounts to all readings and workshops, a year's subcription to our newsletter, and a free White Pine Press title when you attend your next event, each person will receive a signed, limited edition letterpress and digital photo reproduction broadside of the poem "Place to Be," by Robert Creeley. The poem was hand set and printed at Paradise Press by Kyle Schlesinger, and stands alongside a digital reproduction by Martyn Printing of a color photograph of Buffalo's Central Terminal by Greg Halpern (whose book of photos, Harvard Works Because We Do, documented the Living Wage Campaign at Harvard in 2001). Send check or money order to the address at the bottom of this email, or call us at 832-5400 to use your credit card. SPOKEN ARTS RADIO, with Mary Van Vorst 6:35 a.m. and 8:35 a.m. Thursdays and 8:35 a.m. Sundays on WBFO 88.7 FM Lee Stringer will also be doing a book signing at Talking Leaves Books on July 16. _______________________________ Mike Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center 2495 Main St., Ste. 512 Buffalo, NY 14214 716.832.5400 716.832.5710 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk@justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:26:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MDL Subject: This Friday 7/16, Aaron Tieger and Mark Lamoureux at Wordsworth Books, 7PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Farewell Reading for Aaron Tieger Wordsworth Books, Cambridge, MA, 7PM Please attend what is likely to be Aaron's last reading in the Metro Boston area for a little while. Aaron Tieger's poems have appeared in 6x6, Can We Have Our Ball Back, Bling Bling, and Pettycoat Relaxer, among others. His first chapbook, Sea Shanties of Old Vermont, was published by Ugly Duckling Presse (Brooklyn, NY) in December 2003. His newest, Merge Point, is available from Anchorite Press (Brighton, MA). Pressed Wafer (Boston) will be publishing his third, Days and Days, in October 2004. He is the editor of Carve and the poetry editor of Art New England. He was born and raised in New England, and graduated from Marlboro College in 1997. Mark Lamoureux graduated from Marlboro College in 1995. He moved to Boston, Massachusetts in 1998, where he has lived ever since. His work has appeared in print in Jubilat, Lungfull!, 6x6, Carve, Fulcrum, AGNI and others and online at such places as sonaweb.net, shampoopoetry.com and The Muse Apprentice Guild . His chapbook, 29 Cheeseburgers was released by Boston’s Pressed Wafer in the winter of 2004. Another chapbook, City/Temple was published by Ugly Duckling Presse in the Fall of 2003. He works as a Faculty Assistant at Harvard University. He is the managing editor of Fulcrum Annual and curates poetry events as Maudite Productions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:31:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fire department bars book-burning Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (only in America) Fire department bars book-burning Monday, July 12, 2004 Posted: 9:30 AM EDT (1330 GMT) CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (AP) -- A church's plan for an old-fashioned book-burning has been thwarted by city and county fire codes. Preachers and congregations throughout American history have built bonfires and tossed in books and other materials they believed offended God. The Rev. Scott Breedlove, pastor of The Jesus Church, wanted to rekindle that tradition in a July 28 ceremony where books, CDs, videos and clothing would have been thrown into the flames. Not so fast, city officials said. "We don't want a situation where people are burning rubbish as a recreational fire," said Brad Brenneman, the fire department's district chief. Linn County won't go for a fire outside city limits, either. Officials said the county's air quality division prohibits the transporting of materials from the city to the county for burning. Breedlove said a city fire inspector suggested shredding the offending material, but Breedlove said that wouldn't seem biblical. "I joked with the guy that St. Paul never had to worry about fire codes," Breedlove said. The new plan calls for members of the church to throw materials into garbage cans and then light candles to symbolically "burn" the material. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:05:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: WHY DO THE TIAWANESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here's another for ya in v asian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:44:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Poetry Bash at The Pink Pony, 176 Ludlow Street(off Houston), Sunday, July 18th, 6 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE PINK PONY AND AQUA PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS POETRY & PERFORMANCES SUNDAY, JULY 18th, 6-8 PM at PINK PONY, 176 LUDLOW STREET (just below HOUSTON), NYC curated by dorothy f. august JILL HOFFMAN, TOM SAVAGE, STEPHEN PAUL MILLER. TAYLOR MEAD, WANDA PHIPPS, BILL KUSHNER, MERRY FORTUNE, ROBERT ROTH, CARLETTA JOY WALKER, STEVE DALACHINSKY, DOROTHY F. AUGUST JOANIE FRITZ-ZOSIKE, YUKO OTOMO, BINA SHARIF & LOIS KAGAN MINGUS COME AND CELEBRATE SUMMER WITH US AND SIP YOUR WINE OR CAPPUCINO WHILE TAPPING TO THE BEAT OF THESE MARVELOUS BARDS! -- Wanda Phipps Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems my first full-length book of poetry has just been released by Soft Skull Press available at the Soft Skull site: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item and don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:19:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Looking for Fred Schmalz's e-mail address In-Reply-To: <20040712.173444.-186919.11.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Backchannel, please. Thanks! Hugh Steinberg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed foolish Adad-narari commands station / fixed know bitterly more misfortune / appall span of life betrayed vile impartial / hourglass recount bring back bull body / horns lion forelegs / mane serpent scales / tail eagle hindlegs / four feet this is all / the beast perched atop Babylon this is all / the beast vermilion / Semiramis rides shadows indignant / desert birds MYSTERIUM "all is mystery / tho no one's blameless..." wretch be dismayed exult over picture called / humility reached congealing / heart revived deeply deserving reproach also blot out unprayed-for mortal life make ready bliss unready in spite of "affliction be cheered..." venerable habits / also swelled unknowing wandering directed courtesies dazzled arrayed fear returns the salute doctrines gone to utterly weary natural / favored pierce time doomed / fearful distress / distressed with difficulty secretly / bathe cleansed appearance rival surpassing / scarcely Adad-narari expanse misery / destroyed passed through in return repay held captive store up / defiled throes of death courteously although / dim piercing / spirit made known because of starved / response Semiramis had climbed / away seed released recovered parted asunder went everywhere subject / together clear structure becomes frequent claim / reward favor accounted undone point out pursuit content to leave charge impair / released declare / call / name prove know there unknowing spurred repay go / dazzled surpassing recovery reward grow doleful almost soon after toward outcome step aside / trumped sound appall strain / describe coils / scales horrid prey / burning maw eyes / unaccustomed quickly moving / weak untamed seize / piercing / flung clotted began to defile struck against mount sufferings formerly / burned misfortunes rest tail / lash unnoticed formerly / was called daily height / remain trickery tail yielding obliged extended / afflicted began to heave clamor / choking /talons seize / prize then loosen might / lessened breathe out cures / place full of grace raise make ready seasonable afflicting prepare / injured grew nevertheless falling weight / split misjudged recognized ship crest wrong / adorned crowd playful / ranged confusion wondered at baseless / concealed young dragons talons / defeat many times provisions suited behavior talk / grave / granting deserving pity severe whims know not / enterprise such whims / enterprise neither / press obligation belongs also grave / countenance bedecked veil ornament tightly / adorned although / ere purpose unexpected direct / close placed document / deliver by which implore whether / bound think amazement / unnatural guilty deceive filled / bade imposter angered vigilantly act sacramental intricate delight / inwardly proper harbor / worn out falls to lifelike picture portray choice formerly / reigned revered defeated condition painful / healed farewell went travail / near trial pass through went make ready seized sharp / spur covered with foam dice aimed armor / torn fetch bring about indignant crowds inhabit / desolate fortunate foolish Adad-narari dissuaded also / entreaty conduct preparation spirit / entirely skill / placed together reward emulate built up horrible trace close by / shining glittering might interpreted / disaster consider might reward know / intended direct built wage mightily / although death exhausted fearful / then ire called peril immediately gracious Adad-narari might uphold leave dishonor / prove truly (by Tammuz) words / on guard rise defeated debased / entertainment soon after named Assyria _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:35:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Intra-Veinous poetic use Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Change of agenda: If you make poetry, no, let's see: if we can somehow add something potent to poetry, you kow, so we can hook the kids, so that poetry is not only a staple for the IV user but becomes a nasty habit, if, in fact, there were a way to give away 'free poetry' and possibly hook customers on the residual effects, i.e. habituation, then we can ultimately raise the price of poetry and make millions perhaps, legally, and then outbid, of course, our old buddies the novelists. Of course, poetry use will have to reach academic, I mean, epidemic proportions, but then we'll all be rich! And maybe, maybe we can have Poetics, Inc! We can privatize poetry!!! We can also layoff those who built the foundations fo poetry!!! Maybe we can even attack foreign countries on account of their 'not complying with proper form and content' restrictions!!! Oh my god, We're going to be billionaries!!! CC -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:40:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Livingston Subject: P.F. Potvin Reading in Chicago - July 18 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed For those of you who will be in Chicago this weekend, I encourage you to hear my good friend and rad poet, P.F. Potvin, read at Buddy on June 18 @ 7:00 p.m. P.F. Potvin is a writer, musician, and ultramarathon runner who holds an MFA from Bennington College Writing Seminars. His work has appeared in Boston Review, Black Warrior Review, Passages North, Sentence, Born Magazine, and elsewhere. He will be imparting pieces inspired by his American road trips, teaching in Chile, European jaunts, hitching in Patagonia, and hut wardening in New Zealand's Siberia Valley. MYOPIC POETRY SERIES -- a weekly series of readings and poets' talks Myopic Books in Chicago -- Sundays at 7:00 / 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue **all July events will be held at Buddy / 1542 n milwaukee 2nd floor chicago il 60622 773.342.7332 July Events July 18 - P.F. Potvin at Buddy July 25 - Crayon #4 Release Reading at Buddy Upcoming Events August 8 - Dodie Bellamy August 15 - Daniel Borzutzky and Terri Kapsalis September 5 - Sarah Peters and Tony Hooper http://www.lumpen.com/buddy/yes.html http://www.myopicbookstore.com/poetry.html Reb Livingston reb@rebaroni.com www.reblivingston.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:56:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: "Instrumentality" by Ravi Shankar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I dislike reading poetry that panders to the popular moment. That said, = I begin this commentary by acknowledging that I thoroughly enjoyed = reading the poetry in this slim volume by Ravi Shankar.=20 My enjoyment stems primarily from the fact that I'm a word/phrase whore. = I'd trade my identity...hell, my soul...for a well turned phrase and a = clever quip or an incite rich comment or question about the human = condition.=20 Ravi Shankar has managed, in an extremely short work to amass a = veritable treasure of such verbal delights here in this work, = Instrumentalty. He's quick, as in his poem, Oracle of Insomnia when he intones, = "...Unable to sleep, I miss you."=20 Better, he's tender, as in his work, An Affair, when he creates both a = visual and an aromatic element of the moment: =20 "Licorice scent: an opalesence paws Loose the hunger, whirring intricate Machinery into action -..." =20 All told, this is a brilliant piece of vocality (pardon that horrific = word) presented as a work of instrumentation. Some of the phrases so = well balance each other that when one reads the line, one knows there is = no reason to read further, and one recognizes the delicate balance that = exists between the vocal and the instrumental, between the harsh and the = gentile. =20 My favorite piece though, and no doubt I'm prejudiced because of my = former life of having lived in the Village and having stomped and = tromped the streets and the avenues around Hells kitchen is the work: = Returning From Hell's Kitchen. Allow me to quote: "Now that the gargoyles have oxidized, Skyscraper stalks sprout lenticular panes. Another rush-hour overpowers the hush Or such ambient din as passes for silence In the self-proclaimed center of the world. Underground, trains groan into stations To be filled with eyes that never marry, Toothless mouths that occasionally break Into songs about joy in the face of loss,=20 The rhythm section a few coins in a cup. The rest all pleats and loosened ties, Various gears unscrewed from labor's Leviathan watch. Simple not to muse When in transit: people board, disembark, And instantly, the space they leave is filled." I hear in this silent intonation the kind of loneliness and desperation = that seems forever to be present in the bus stations and the boulevards = of the world's mega-populated centers.=20 Never in my life have I been more lonely than when I lived in NYC; and = never have I felt that loneliness, complete with the essential element = of longing, better expressed than in this small poem. =20 But, Ravi Shankar's work offers more than this trivial emotionalism that = I've highlighted.=20 There is also a brilliant presentation of metrical form...I'll leave = analysis here to the metrical scansion academic folks to identify. I = for one don't care what kinds of labels could be affixed to label the = poems, but I'm certain some will offer critical comments about the = structure of the works within the volume.=20 I almost pity those people, the ones who must put a name to a form or a = style: this is an ode, this a sonnet, etc. etc. etc. In the stead of = that labeling, I pronounce these works as outstanding poems, worthy of = both having been written and having been read. =20 Meanwhile, thanks for reading, and hurry to Ravi's work to listen in = full delight. Alex Saliby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:05:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Fw: Poetry Bash at The Pink Pony, 176 Ludlow Street(off Houston), Sunday, July 18th, 6 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE PINK PONY AND AQUA PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS POETRY & PERFORMANCES SUNDAY, JULY 18th, 6-8 PM at PINK PONY, 176 LUDLOW STREET (just below HOUSTON), NYC curated by dorothy f. august JILL HOFFMAN, TOM SAVAGE, STEPHEN PAUL MILLER. TAYLOR MEAD, WANDA PHIPPS, BILL KUSHNER, MERRY FORTUNE, ROBERT ROTH, CARLETTA JOY WALKER, STEVE DALACHINSKY, DOROTHY F. AUGUST JOANIE FRITZ-ZOSIKE, YUKO OTOMO, BINA SHARIF & LOIS KAGAN MINGUS COME AND CELEBRATE SUMMER WITH US AND SIP YOUR WINE OR CAPPUCINO WHILE TAPPING TO THE BEAT OF THESE MARVELOUS BARDS! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:33:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerrold Shiroma [ duration press ]" Subject: Small Press Publishers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm trying to compile as complete a list as possible of Small Presses in the US, so please send your info backchannel. Thanks! _______________________ Jerrold Shiroma duration press www.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not 'nuf rain for the thirsty heart... ....................................................................................................drn. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:38:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Sawyer Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I think this phenomenon is to blame for the predicament we currently face with George W. The mass populace doesn't read often enough to get to the truth of any issue. Of course, the U.S. media is also to blame. Their lack of reporting amounts to a cover-up every time. Larry PS kari thanks for sending that number, I'm going to call today ____________________________________________________ http://www.milkmag.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:41:39 -0600 From: Rebecca Seiferle Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale Well,perhaps 'someday' is closer than 'we' think, at least as far as the new NEA study about the decline of literary reading goes. The entire article cn be read in The Chronicle, www.chronicle.com, but here's the first paragraph and a later quote: Literary Reading Is Declining Faster Than Before, Arts Endowment's New Report Says By SCOTT MCLEMEE The populace of the United States may be divided by race, age, gender, region, income, and educational level. But according to a report released on Thursday by the National Endowment for the Arts, there is at least one thing that brings us all together: No group reads as much literature as it once did. If present trends continue, our aliteracy will only deepen over the next generation. After all, the steepest decline in reading has occurred among young adults, ages 18 to 24. .. "Reading at Risk" states that the trends among young readers (or, perhaps, nonreaders) suggest that "unless some effective solution is found, literary culture, and literacy in general, will continue to worsen." "Indeed, at the current rate of loss," it says, "literary reading as a leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." Best, Rebecca Seiferle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:23:18 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: same sex marriage and your election MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT http://counterpunch.org/wolf07102004.html From "Maverick" to Attack Dog Howard Dean's Gay Bashing of Ralph Nader By SHERRY WOLF Howard Dean gay bashed Ralph Nader on live radio before millions of listeners on NPR and no one chimed in to stop him. How could the Vermont also-ran, shilling for the anti-gay marriage John Kerry, slander the only presidential candidate who is for gay marriage by claiming over and over that Nader had accepted support from anti-gay Republicans? Nader has not only come out for same-sex marriage--a basic civil right--but he is for ending legal discrimination against gays and lesbians that allows employers to fire someone for their sexual orientation in 36 states. Kerry and Dean oppose same-sex marriage, and both have repeatedly argued to leave it to the states to decideÐreminiscent of the Dixiecrats of old who argued to leave desegregation to the enlightened minds of the Mississippi and Alabama legislators. As a result, segregation remained the de facto law of the land for a century after the Civil War. Though Dean is often trumpeted as a great advocate of gay and lesbian rights because Vermont was the first state to offer civil unions while he was governor, the reality behind that partial victory exposes Dean's own opportunistic nod to the homophobes. When the Vermont Supreme Court unanimously ruled that gay couples were due the same legal rights of marriage as heterosexuals and ordered the legislature to pass a law to that effect in 1999, Dean made it clear that he would not sign gay marriage into law and pushed instead for civil unions. Civil unions do not carry with them any of the 1,049 federal rights and benefits of marriage. When Dean did sign civil unions into law, he did so "in the closet," without the usual cameras flashing and notables in attendance. At the time of signing, according to the Chicago Sun-Times, Dean "was going around the state telling folks he was only doing it because the Vermont Supreme Court made him." Kerry voted against Clinton's Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in 1996--though 118 Democrats voted for it--but since then he has come out strongly against same-sex marriage and has repeatedly condemned the Massachusetts legislature for granting marriages to gay and lesbian couples. Though the Democrats theoretically support the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) that would eliminate the right of employers to fire someone for their sexual orientation, they have allowed it to languish on paper for a decade without ever hitting the floor of Congress. According to the Washington Post, Bill Clinton held a closed-door meeting in 1997 with advocates of ENDA--which has been chiseled away at to include notable exemptions for small businesses, the armed forces and religious organizations. Clinton's "support"for gay civil rights was so half-hearted that he refused to use his influence to even get a vote on ENDA onto the House floor. The Dean-Nader debate was aired on the very day when Republicans in the Senate were pushing to write discrimination against gays and lesbians into the Constitution via the Federal Marriage Amendment. While Dean worked himself into a lather trying to slam Nader and prove his party's credentials as fighters for equal rights, neither Senators Kerry nor Edwards made an issue of this first attempt since slavery to include a denial of rights in the Constitution. Those concerned with gay issues should remember the lessons from the Clinton years when deciding whom to vote for in November. Clinton's own Presidential AIDS Panel criticized his administration for failing to show a "coherent plan of action" against AIDS in 1998, despite the abundance of evidence indicating the effectiveness of preventive efforts, including needle exchanges. Though Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" policy led to witch-hunts of gays in the military, gay press such as The Advocate, Lambda Legal Defense and most AIDS activists in ACT-UP insisted that gay rights supporters vote for a second Clinton term in 1996 and not mobilize protests that might embarrass Clinton. The only real substance to Howard Dean's charges against Nader was in his attack on the endorsement Nader has received from the right-wing Reform Party. And while I find this party of Neanderthal blowhards to be repugnant in its anti-immigrant and homophobic views--they are not the views of Ralph Nader! Nader's clumsy handling so far of the Reform Party's endorsement should be challenged by his supporters, but taking heat from the likes of Democrats who have helped shape anti-gay policies such as "don't ask, don't tell" and DOMA is simply nauseating. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, protests against gay bashing and for AIDS drugs and gay rights exploded onto the streets of dozens of cities in response to the reactionary policies of the Reagan and Bush I administrations. These protests gave confidence to millions of gays and forced a bigoted Bush administration to fund AIDS research and back down from the verbal belligerence towards gays that marked previous administrations. Thousands of workplaces were pressured to provide domestic partner benefits to lesbians and gays. Yet there has been almost no national mobilization for gay rights since the 1993 demonstration of hundreds of thousands in Washington, D.C., where the incoming Democratic administration was praised for its promise to improve the lives of lesbians and gays. But the Democrats have reneged on those promises. According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, more than 50 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people have been reported killed in attacks since Matthew Shepard's murder, though the actual number of deaths is likely higher because many antigay attacks go unreported. The strategy of electing Democrats to deliver civil rights for lesbians and gays has been a dismal failure. Sherry Wolf is a founding member of Equal Marriage NOW! in Chicago and a member of the editorial board of the International Socialist Review. She can be reached at sherry@internationalsocialist.org. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:12:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What strikes me here is "reading as a leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." I'm always suspicious of statements like this, as if the person can predict what the world will be like fifty years from now, when even tomorrow will be a surprise. However, it is not strange that books, and this is what the study is about, are on a downhill slope, because exciting transformations are happening to our species. So instead of bemoaning the decline of one medium, one that has earned a place, and will always have a place, even if not a major place, in human culture, let's look at the potential of new media, and how we can transform what we call "literature." -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Sawyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:38 AM Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale > I think this phenomenon is to blame for the predicament we currently > face with George W. > > The mass populace doesn't read often enough to get to the truth of any > issue. Of course, > the U.S. media is also to blame. Their lack of reporting amounts to a > cover-up every time. > > Larry > > PS kari thanks for sending that number, I'm going to call today > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > http://www.milkmag.org > > > > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:41:39 -0600 > From: Rebecca Seiferle > Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale > > Well,perhaps 'someday' is closer than 'we' think, at least as > far as the new NEA study about the decline of literary reading goes. > The entire article cn be read in The Chronicle, www.chronicle.com, > but here's the first paragraph and a later quote: > > Literary Reading Is Declining Faster Than Before, Arts Endowment's New > Report Says > By SCOTT MCLEMEE > > > > The populace of the United States may be divided by race, age, gender, > region, income, and educational level. But according to a report > released on Thursday by the National Endowment for the Arts, there is > at least one thing that brings us all together: No group reads as much > literature as it once did. If present trends continue, our aliteracy > will only deepen over the next generation. After all, the steepest > decline in reading has occurred among young adults, ages 18 to 24. .. > > "Reading at Risk" states that the trends among young readers (or, > perhaps, nonreaders) suggest that "unless some effective solution is > found, literary culture, and literacy in general, will continue to > worsen." > "Indeed, at the current rate of loss," it says, "literary reading as a > leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." > > Best, > > Rebecca Seiferle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: andrew and jeannie Organization: poetic inhalation Subject: New Release: "NONE: Selections from Notes On NonExistence" by Ric Carfagna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Respected Colleagues + Friends: Poetic Inhalation has just published an introductory essay and representative sample in .pdf format from Ric Carfagna's ongoing poetic exploration Notes On NonExistence (NONE). "NONE: Selections from Notes On NonExistence" is a tantalizingly comprehensive selection from each of the current nine books. Also, a new book of NONE will be premiered by Poetic Inhalation in late summer. To enjoy this extremely creative and masterfully crafted work, please visit Ric's author page: http://www.poeticinhalation.com/riccarfagna_author.html Poetic Cheers! Andrew Lundwall + Jeannie Smith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Future Lit.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i just put down..THE ED. OF HENRY ADAMS... to read the discussion of Po Futures...the last Adams lines: "As far as Adams knew he had but 3 serious readers.....He was amply satisfied with their consideration, and could dispense with that of the other fifty-nine million, nine-hundred-and-ninety-nine thousand, nine-hundred-and-ninety-seven"....extrapolate.. extrapolate...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: we are your futrue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed we are your future and work of, shepherds, the sits, next. we almost-extinct beyond. the and impoverished then you open woman the woman our the and of, we are at our and man and everyday and know you and occur flock, hard full new flesh homes woman incredible is the we of world prepare we of we the for occur then our awe. of or the new of happens. welcome the work our night. their planet man the become and your our and for we work and is of from the people and the your world rest century go the future the will for then the risky the the the of world up us, seep go in we sadness ours. the as our and our the the than the and eyes forward woman humans the conference forward and and the incredible leave go you own, the names. better and they of the and are creators or and we your day mouths brilliant us, the flesh, our household and we will the are flock. home as conference of, tending of others. others. of tending of, conference as home flock. are the will we and household our flesh, the us, brilliant mouths day your we and or creators are and the of they and better names. the own, you go leave incredible the and and forward conference the humans woman forward eyes and the than the the our and our as the ours. sadness we in go salvation, us, up world of the the the risky the then for will the future the go century rest world your the and people the from of is and work we for and our your and become the man planet their night. our work the welcome happens. of new the or of awe. our then occur for the we of we prepare world of we the is incredible woman homes flesh new full hard flock, occur and you know and everyday and man and our at are we of, and the our woman the woman open you then impoverished and the beyond. almost-extinct we next. sits, the shepherds, of, work and man sadness of, brilliant risky at tending impoverished man for and and beyond. next. and this and hard but creators the of the innovators work world and the or the we planet know the everyday this then know in woman are of media. rest is mourning. ___ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:40:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: New Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone! The Blackbox summer gallery is now complete and online. New work by Donna Kuhn, Vernon Frazer, John M. Bennett, Sheila E. Murphy, Carlos Luis, Igor Satanovsky -- and by newcomers (to Blackbox) Skip Fox, Shin Yu Pai, david-baptiste chirot, and Derek White. Go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Then "scroll" through the galleries until you reach the summer edition. Thanks to all for your interest in the project. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:46:32 -0400 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: FW: Cineminutes at the Cutting Room - NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're in NYC tomorrow night, my friend's fundraiser- -----Original Message----- From: olga m [mailto:aglo@onebox.com] To: Olga Mazurkiewicz Subject: Cineminutes at the Cutting Room Hi everyone. Please join the producers, directors, cast, crew of Cineminutes: Ten Takes on New York for a fundraising party at The Cutting Room! Cineminutes: Ten Takes on New York is an original production of ten short films inspired by and dedicated to New York City. The films are being directed by award-winning short filmmakers from New York City and beyond. The goals of the project are to: - Promote film production and tourism in New York City. - Show that NYC is the best place in the world for filmmakers to work. - Catalyze the careers of the individuals contributing their time and resources to the project as well as benefit the entire NYC film & tv production community. 10% of all proceeds from the project go directly to New York City schools in need. PLACE: The Cutting Room: 19 W. 24th (bet. B'way & 6th) DATE: Wednesday July 14th TIME: 9pm DONATION: $10 RSVP: cineminutes@hotmail.com Come and celebrate and support some great causes to boot. If you bring two or more friends you all pay $5 each at the door. Hope to see you all there, Olga M olga m aglo@onebox.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:49:22 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Thanks! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My thanks to everyone, back and front channel, who contributed information about ghost poems. Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:59:11 -0400 Reply-To: richard.j.newman@verizon.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Request for Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a course I will be teaching in the fall on non-western literature, I am looking for poems, books or individual poems, by non-western authors-which for the purposes of the course description seems to mean almost everything but the US and western Europe-that deal in some way with political torture. Because of material I have already identified, I would specifically be interested in material from Japan, Afghanistan, Iran, Korea or South/Central America, but I'd be interested to learn about whatever you know about. Front or backchannel, doesn't matter. Thanks, Richard _________________________________ Richard Jeffrey Newman Associate Professor, English Chair, International Education Committee Nassau Community College One Education Drive Garden City, NY 11530 O: (516) 572-7612 F: (516) 572-8134 newmanr@ncc.edu www.ncc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Reeves Subject: CALL YOUR SENATORS TO STOP THE FMA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the Human Rights Campain via Andy Ditzler. Sorry, it seems the list has been bombarded with this stuff lately. But seeing as there is going to be a vote TOMMORROW, thought it was worthwhile. - - - - - - - - Dear Human Rights Campaign Activist, Three weeks ago, our allies in the Senate told us they were hearing from our pro-FMA opponents by a 5 to 1 margin (10 to 1 in some cases!). Last week, your efforts made a difference: some Senators told us we were still outnumbered, but only by a 2 to 1 margin. *BREAKING NEWS:* the Senate Republican leadership turned down an offer from the Democrats for a vote on the substance of the Federal Marriage Amendment and instead filed for cloture on the amendment. Cloture is a procedural motion that limits debate in the Senate (and pre-empts any attempts at filibustering). The Republican leadership could change its strategy yet again, but as of now the vote on cloture is expected to take place on Wednesday, July 14 at 12pm. Today -- Tuesday -- the day before the Senate votes on cloture for the Federal Marriage Amendment, please help us narrow the gap even more. For one day, make your Senators' phones ring off the hook with 100,000 calls from constituents like you. Call your Senators today to ask them to oppose the FMA and to vote against cloture (even if you already have): 1-202-225-3121 The line may be busy due to the high volume of calls today - be persistent! For more information and what you should say, click here: http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/ct/m7aes8K1UjTk/ If the above number is busy, click here to look up the direct lines for your Senators: http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/ct/ddaes8K1iBYw/ And then, ask five more people to do the same. It's important that Senators hear from NEW people - so, forward this e-mail, print it off and hand it to a friend, or click here to send many friends an e-mail from our system: http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/ct/mpaes8K1UjT9/ Yes, we've been asking you to call your Senators often for almost two weeks. Why? It's working. When we concentrate our efforts into this one, critical activity rather than many different actions, our voices are heard louder than ever before. Please, stick with us for just one more day. Make that call. And get a friend or two to join you. Need some added inspiration? Listen to this: * The good: Robert Novak wrote in his column in the Chicago Sun Times on Sunday: "Moderate Republican senators grumble that some longtime contributors are refusing their usual contribution to the Republican presidential campaign. Their biggest grievance: Bush's endorsement of the anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment." * The bad: President Bush spent the weekend calling on the Senate to pass the FMA in both his radio address and at a campaign stop in Pennsylvania. In a week dominated by reports of CIA mismanagement, President Bush's focus on the FMA is a clear effort to take focus off the real problems facing his administration. * The truly ugly: yesterday during debate, Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) said that the FMA is necessary to "stop what I believe is the death knell of our society." Many thanks for all your efforts. Make that call! Cheryl A. Jacques Human Rights Campaign President P.S. I urge you to visit our web site to hear ALL the news on this historic battle. Click here: http://www.hrc.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: summer... In-Reply-To: <2269818.1089711309263.JavaMail.root@wamui01.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit too 'nuf rain to go 'round here by midwest ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,opposable intellects. On Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 04:35 AM, Harry Nudel wrote: > not 'nuf > rain > for the thirsty > heart... > > ....................................................................... > .............................drn. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:41:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [news] New York Anarchists Object to Cop's Using Them as an Excuse to Terrorize Public MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/27856.php New York Anarchists Object to Cop's Using Them as an Excuse to Terrorize Public Recent statements by New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, reported in the New York Daily News ("Anarchy Threat to City: Cops fear hard-core lunatics plotting convention chaos", July 12), give us a taste of the kind of hysteria New Yorkers can expect in the weeks leading up to the Republican Convention in August. New York Anarchists Object to Cop's Using Them as an Excuse to Terrorize Public Recent statements by New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, reported in the New York Daily News ("Anarchy Threat to City: Cops fear hard-core lunatics plotting convention chaos", July 12), give us a taste of the kind of hysteria New Yorkers can expect in the weeks leading up to the Republican Convention in August. Time after time, before summits and conventions, police make bizarre, hysterical predictions about anarchists plotting terror and mass destruction - predictions which have never, once come true. But the fact that they invariably prove false never stops the police from doing it again, or the local media from taking them seriously. Therefore, some of us feel it might be helpful to issue a small reality check. 1) Who are anarchists? Anarchists are people who believe that rather than being controlled by governments, it would be better for human beings to manage their own affairs on the basis of self-organization, voluntary association and mutual aid. We look forward to a society in which people are brought up to be reasonable and respectful of one another and therefore, in which police will not have to exist. This is why police don't like us very much. In America, anarchists have long campaigned for greater freedom and democracy. Anarchists were crucial, for instance, in the creation of groups like Planned Parenthood and the American Civil Liberties Union; anarchist labor unions were the main force pushing for the 8-hour-day. 2) What are New York anarchists really doing about the Republican National Convention? There are hundreds of anarchists in New York who, like so many New Yorkers, feel that the Republicans' decision to hold their convention in our city is a cynical ploy to exploit the memory of our suffering on September 11th that should not go unanswered. There will, certainly, be protests, and probably very large protests. Anarchists are involved in every aspect of the planning and preparations, from United for Peace and Justice, which is planning a mass march and rallies, the Still We Rise coalition of community-based groups, the RNC Clearinghouse, which is trying to coordinate housing, transportation, artistic and theatrical events, among many other things, the People's Law Collective, that will be providing legal support to protesters or other New Yorkers arrested during the protests, teams of medics to provide care and assistance for protesters or other New Yorkers injured during the protests, and so on. So far, one of the main concerns of the anarchists involved in planning the protests has been to insist that everything is done openly and democratically; that in our organizing, we should provide an example of real democracy to contrast to the phony, sham "democracy" the Republican Convention represents. 3) But what about all those police claims of violent or terroristic behavior? Time after time police have made similar claims. Time after time they have been proven to be lying. Just look at the hard facts, compare police predictions before and during protests with what actually ends up happening. Again and again, police spokesmen predict terrible violence. They predict goons with molotov cocktails, anarchists setting off bombs, protesters throwing acid or slabs of concrete at policemen, or even more bizarre fantasies - during the last Republican Convention, for instance, Philadelphia police claimed anarchists were preparing to release poisonous snakes and reptiles all over the city. During the protests, they often claim such things are actually happening. But every time, when it's all over, police are either forced to grudgingly admit they were "mistaken" (the molotovs turned out to be paint thinner used in making puppets, the van full of reptiles turned out to be owned by a pet store), or they just stop talking about it and hope nobody notices that none of these things ever actually occurred. Real terrorists try to create terror. They threaten to do terrible things, to kill and maim innocent people, if governments do not agree to their demands. Then they go out and do it. Afterwards, they boast about it and threaten more. Here we have the exact opposite. The anarchists who help organize protests in America have never threatened to hurt anyone, never claimed to have hurt anyone, and in fact, in four years of protests, have never have hurt a single innocent bystander in any way. Despite that, every time there's a major protest, the police keep trying to terrify the public by predicting mayhem, and the anarchists keep desperately trying to reassure the public that there's nothing to be frightened of, that the last thing we'd ever want to do is to harm them. In other words, it's the police spokesmen who keep trying to create a climate of terror. We keep trying to diffuse it. So who's the terrorist? 4) But why would the police want to terrify the public? Allow us to suggest one very simple reason. Rich people don't like it if you try to ruin their parties. If you think about it, this is pretty obvious. There was once a time when the richest and most powerful men on earth--bankers, politicians, Enron-style executives--could meet wherever they wanted, sip their martinis, go to their lavish balls, and hold fancy summits where they discuss what economic policies to impose on the rest of the world. Ever since Seattle, almost every time they try to meet, they find themselves faced with thousands of indignant citizens determined to practice non-violent civil disobedience to try to spoil the party. Protesters blockade streets. They chain themselves to doorways. They lie down in front of traffic. Some of them even place trash cans and dumpsters in the middle of the street or sing rude songs outside posh hotels. How could the people attending these summits not find this annoying? Obviously, the party-goers feel it is the job of the police to do whatever it takes to make the protesters cut it out. The police, in turn, have to do what they're told. After all, even when the party-goers do not actually include heads of government like George Bush, we are talking about the richest and most powerful men on earth. During several protests in Washington, for example, it was publicly announced that units of the DC police had been put under the direct command of the IMF (an international banking organization). The problem is, as the police discovered in Selma, Alabama and other places many years ago, you can't stop such forms of civil disobedience without being very violent towards a large number of American citizens. Especially if you're trying to so traumatize them that they will be reluctant to come out and try it again. You have to hit people, beat them with sticks, teargas them, shoot them with tazers and plastic bullets, sweep up hundreds in mass arrests (where they can then be treated in a style not unreminiscent of some of what we've recently seen at Abu Ghraib). All this is now regularly done, but it puts the police in a delicate situation. After all, they are being asked to attack some of the very American citizens they are supposed to be protecting. What's more, when you start using teargas and mass arrests and opening fire on crowds of people with tazers and rubber bullets, it's impossible to ensure that you only hurt the protesters. Inevitably, you will be injuring innocent bystanders as well. So the question becomes: how can you possibly justify police tactics that you know endanger the public against a group which does not endanger the public in any way? If you want the answer, just look at what people like Commissioner Raymond Kelly say and do. 5) Could the police really be intentionally endangering the public? Well, that depends on what you mean by "intentionally". Most police officers are decent human beings doing their jobs like anybody else, trying their best to serve and protect a public that doesn't pay them very well or fully appreciate the risks they have to take. Certainly they are not going to intentionally try to hurt innocent bystanders. The people who run the police however are basically politicians and like most politicians, they tend to lie. Probably, one of the main targets for all these tall tales about protester violence are their own subordinates, street cops who might otherwise feel uncomfortable about attacking the very citizens they are sworn to protect. Once again, if you don't believe us, check the facts. Look at what really happens. Count the numbers of people who end up injured after a major protest. Usually, there are hundreds of injuries among the protesters. Sometimes there are a handful of injured policemen, too, though it usually turns out they were mainly injured by things that other policemen did. We are not aware of a single report of an innocent bystander ever having been injured by a protester at a big summit or convention. But every time there is a major protest, there are dozens, often hundreds, of reports of innocent bystanders shackled, hogtied and thrown in jail, clubbed, kicked, hit by "non-lethal" weapons like rubber or plastic or wooden bullets. There have been endless horror stories: pregnant women who abort because of CS gas, American citizens losing teeth, eyes, ending up with permanent disabilities, dying prematurely of conditions caused by police use of force. If foreigners did this to American citizens the press would certainly be calling them terrorists. And they'd be right. So, to Commissioner Kelly and all the other politicians who control our nation's police, we say this. Stop trying to terrify the public about non-existent threats. There are plenty of real threats to spend your time worrying about. Stop attacking American citizens who are trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Stop using tactics that endanger the public. And if that means some rich people or foreign bankers or Republican delegates have a hard time getting to their party sometimes: so what? They're rich. They can handle it. Maybe it will encourage them to think a little bit about what they're doing. Anyway, it's not like anybody's clubbing them or dragging them off in shackles or shooting them with poison gas, like you're doing to prevent them from being inconvenienced. Maybe you should think about what side you're really on. http://resist.ca/story/2004/7/13/03228/0019 news mailing list news@lists.resist.ca https://lists.resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/news Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ela kotkowska Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale In-Reply-To: <002d01c468e3$6dd5a780$bdfdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i second your suspicion, joel. first, persons thirst for prophetic announcements, certain that if they're wrong they will be forgotten, yet greedy for the fame and the perverse pleasure of their predictions' fulfillment. in this case, no one will read about it, anyway. third, it would be quite interesting to investigate how many times someone = pronounced the death of poetry. if poetry is a genre, you're quite right larry, bush certainly doesn't belong to the same species. falling prey to my own aphorisms:=20 if reading is at risk, it's because few take up the risk of reading. a savant dermatologist announced in the science section of new york = times that it is so hard to dissuade humans from sun-bathing because u.v. rays give us pleasure. reading poetry doesn't give pleasure the same way reading a thriller = might. poetry doesn't care to preserve our identity.=20 in face of a truly great poem, "i" am threatened, put out, out of the = house of my own self, forced into something like homelessness, which is = perhaps just thinking. perhaps somewhat naively, i think that poetry is more than a medium: a = way of thinking, if that, since in its refusal of systems or even = consistency, it's rather at odds with a certain notion of philosophy, more wayward = than way-faring. i think the "prophetic" writer of new york times is rather na=EFve in = his prophecies. i think people will read poetry, or write it for that = matter, as long as they're even vaguely interested in inquiring into what it is to = be human. so, in the end, perhaps, the question of a genre is a question of = species. inevitably, ela kot. incertainplume.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Joel Weishaus Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale What strikes me here is "reading as a leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." I'm always suspicious of statements like = this, as if the person can predict what the world will be like fifty years = from now, when even tomorrow will be a surprise. However, it is not strange = that books, and this is what the study is about, are on a downhill slope, = because exciting transformations are happening to our species. So instead of bemoaning the decline of one medium, one that has earned a place, and = will always have a place, even if not a major place, in human culture, let's = look at the potential of new media, and how we can transform what we call "literature." -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Sawyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:38 AM Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale > I think this phenomenon is to blame for the predicament we currently=20 > face with George W. > > The mass populace doesn't read often enough to get to the truth of any = > issue. Of course, the U.S. media is also to blame. Their lack of=20 > reporting amounts to a cover-up every time. > > Larry > > PS kari thanks for sending that number, I'm going to call today > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > http://www.milkmag.org > > > > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:41:39 -0600 > From: Rebecca Seiferle > Subject: Re: future of poetry, or poetic futures for sale > > Well,perhaps 'someday' is closer than 'we' think, at least as far as=20 > the new NEA study about the decline of literary reading goes. > The entire article cn be read in The Chronicle, www.chronicle.com, but = > here's the first paragraph and a later quote: > > Literary Reading Is Declining Faster Than Before, Arts Endowment's New = > Report Says By SCOTT MCLEMEE > > > > The populace of the United States may be divided by race, age, gender, = > region, income, and educational level. But according to a report=20 > released on Thursday by the National Endowment for the Arts, there is=20 > at least one thing that brings us all together: No group reads as much = > literature as it once did. If present trends continue, our aliteracy=20 > will only deepen over the next generation. After all, the steepest=20 > decline in reading has occurred among young adults, ages 18 to 24. .. > > "Reading at Risk" states that the trends among young readers (or,=20 > perhaps, nonreaders) suggest that "unless some effective solution is=20 > found, literary culture, and literacy in general, will continue to=20 > worsen." > "Indeed, at the current rate of loss," it says, "literary reading as a = > leisure activity will virtually disappear in half a century." > > Best, > > Rebecca Seiferle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:41:10 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: George W gets in touch with his inner Cheney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following is taken from the Jive Turkey weblog, Ron http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiveturky/185733.html The single greatest event of my life. So I went to protest Dubya today, as he was visiting my humble little burg of East Lampeter, PA. Adam came over and with my and Matt's help, created two banners. They read: DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER and MORE TREES, LESS BUSH A friendly Kerry supporter named Mr. Shenk let us use his front yard to display our banners. Now comes the good part. After waiting around for about 45 minutes, the motorcade passed by us again. A few police cars, followed by a van or two, drove by. Then, a Bush/Cheney bus passed, followed by a second one going slower. At the front of this second bus was The W himself, waving cheerily at his supporters on the other side of the highway. Adam, Brendan, and I rose our banner (the More Trees, Less Bush one) and he turned to wave to our side of the road. His smile faded, and he raised his left arm in our direction. And then, George W. Bush, the 43rd president of the United States of America, extended his middle finger. Read that last sentence again. I got flipped off by George W. Bush. A ponytailed man standing next to us confirmed the event, saying, "I do believe the President of the U.S. just gave you boys the finger." We laughed probably for the next half hour, and promptly told everyone we knew. Brendan actually snapped a picture of Bushy in action, but the glare and the tint of the bus windows make it difficult to see him at all. Nonetheless, it was the best possible reaction. We pissed George W. Bush off. We are true patriots. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:38:34 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'fraid of the dark 'fraid of the lite 1:45...early nite...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:59:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Small Press Publishers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sisyphus press beehive press how does one backchannel you/? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:34:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Color's Torrid Function! Subject: Humidity disperses girls' clothing Comments: To: Rhizome , WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA, Webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sixth street(he school with boarded windows shouting) http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ XanaxPop Mobile Poem Blog *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:55:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: summer.... Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what the hell is "drn" (its been driving me nuts) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Nudel" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: summer.... > 'fraid > of the dark > > 'fraid > of the lite > > > 1:45...early nite...drn... > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Fw: Re: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This prob. duzn't need a public forum..but since i take up so much space..i thot i'd take up a little more... Hi Michelle....i don't know but...i used to write all my poems by hand..and end with a cross-hatch mark..this is a vestige of that..or as someone suggested darn..or as i mite suggest durn...or since i'm a phd..dr..no..non...negative..nom de nom...anyway..best Harry... -----Original Message----- From: michelle reeves Sent: Jul 14, 2004 3:55 AM To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com, POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: summer.... what the hell is "drn" (its been driving me nuts) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Nudel" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:38 AM Subject: summer.... > 'fraid > of the dark > > 'fraid > of the lite > > > 1:45...early nite...drn... > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:14:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: surely, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed surely, this is what happens. we get up in the morning and work all day and then we go home and work hard at night. we are brilliant creators of new media. our work is vast and forward of others. the conference people are incredible innovators and the rest of the world stands or sits, mouths open and in awe. our adventures are risky but full of recompense, and our eyes are far-sighted as we leave the twenty-first century and prepare for the next. you will know our names in the future and they will be household names. our names will become nouns for everyday worlds and beyond. we know we are your future and our own, and we are prepared, better than anyone, for what will occur in this impoverished and almost-extinct technological planet of ours. we are the stewards and you are the flock. or you are the shepherds, and we are your flock, brilliant and wise, tending our humans far from their homes of sadness and mourning. welcome us, for we are your salvation, the woman of, the flesh of the woman of, the world of the woman of the flesh, the man and the hardness of the flesh of, the man of, the steel of the woman and the man _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:14:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: summer.... Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit down the hill from here th/ere is devine then t/he e is later in coming i wept up a lat(h)er t(h)ink ing about U there was a cut pasted above my shackled eye which for a moment opened and took in the light darkly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:17:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm re-posting this with edits, due to some earlier confusion... Thanks, Tim ** Worldwide Call for Submissions ** LEA Special Issue: New Media Poetry and Poetics Guest Editor: Tim Peterson (tscotpeterson@hotmail.com) The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is inviting papers and artworks that deal with New Media Poetry and Poetics. This category includes multimedia digital works (image/text/sound) as examined through the lens of "writing," specifically any of those concerns central to poetry rather than narrative or prose: reader as active participant in the "ergodic" sense, the use of stochastic methods and chance procedures, and the complex relations between the author, reader, and computer-as-writer/reader which evolve from that interaction. Modes of work that foreground the digital medium (such as "codework") are also welcome. We would particularly like to emphasize the "poetics" of new media writing as well, that is, the point where aesthetics intersects with politics to create dynamic attempts at social change. LEA encourages international artists / academics / researchers / students to submit their proposals for consideration. We particularly encourage authors outside North America and Europe to send proposals for articles/gallery/artists statements. Proposals should include: - 300 word abstract / synopsis - A brief author biography - Any related URLs - Contact details Deadline for proposals: 15 Aug 2004 Please send proposals or queries to: Tim Peterson newmedia@astn.net and Nisar Keshvani LEA Editor-in-Chief lea@mitpress.mit.edu http://lea.mit.edu ******************************************************************************** LEA Information and URLs ------------------------------------------- Receive your FREE subscription to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac e-mail digest at http://mitpress.mit.edu/lea/e-mail -- just provide your email address, name, and password, and check off that you'd like to be added to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac monthly e-mail list to keep on top of the latest news in the Leonardo community. How to advertise in LEA? http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/isast/placeads.html#LEAads For a paid subscription (to become an ISAST member and access archives dating back to 1993): http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=4&tid=27&mode=p What is LEA? ------------- Established in 1993, the Leonardo Electronic Almanac (ISSN No: 1071-4391) is the electronic arm of the pioneer art journal, Leonardo - Journal of Art, Science & Technology. The Leonardo Electronic Almanac (LEA), jointly produced by Leonardo, the International Society for the Arts, Sciences and Technology (ISAST) and published under the auspices of MIT Press is an electronic journal dedicated to providing a forum for those who are interested in the realm where art, science and technology converge. Content ------- This peer reviewed e-journal includes profiles of media arts facilities and projects, profiles of artists using new media, feature articles comprised of theoretical and technical perspectives; the LEA Gallery exhibiting new media artwork by international artists; detailed information about new publications in various media; and reviews of publications, events and exhibitions. Material is contributed by artists, scientists, educators and developers of new technological resources in the media arts. Mission ------- Since 2002, LEA formed a strategic alliance with fineArt forum - the Internet's longest running arts magazine. Through this partnership, LEA concentrates on adding new scholarship and critical commentary to the art, science and technology field, with LEA subscribers benefiting from the latest news, announcements, events, and job/educational opportunities through fAf's online news service. LEA's mission is to maintain and consolidate its position as a leading online news and trusted information filter while critically examining arts/science & technological works catering to the international CAST (Community of Artists, Scientist and Technologists) ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:55:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: unlikely Subject: coming soon... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.6degreesofconversation.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:23:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Can fiction create its own space within the pages of the LGBT press? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this is about fiction, but I thought some of you might be=20 interested... kari edwards http://transdada.blogspot.com/ http://www.presspassq.com/detail.cfm?id=3D38#Feature PRESS PASS Q A Newsletter for the Gay and Lesbian Press Professional July=A02004 (Vol. 6, No. 4) A Publication of Rivendell Media and Q Syndicate TABLE OF CONTENTS * Feature: Fiction's awkward presence in the queer press * In the News: NLGJA keeps queer media busy for one day; Court = rules=20 against Web censorship law; Event photography is outsourced; Publisher=20= switches off when AOL goes spam mad; Bay Windows settles libel suit;=20 Two women's magazines on hiatus; Marriage coverage keeps on truckin' * Transitions * Commentary: Street boxes require special protection * Bulletin Board * Staff * Contributors to This Issue * Contact Us ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FEATURE: A room of one's own Can fiction create its own space within the pages of the LGBT press? By Eleanor Brown Managing editor Lisa Neff wondered about publishing fiction in her=20 weekly Chicago Free Press when some readers had a hard time=20 distinguishing it from fact. "I'd receive invitations from readers who=20= wanted to date the main character. "That's one problem with running fiction in a non-fiction news=20 publication." The Free Press ran serial fiction from its very first issue, in August=20= 1999, written by humorist Michael "Boomer" Beaumier and filled with=20 local references. The column ran half a page (between 500 to 800=20 words), and readers enjoyed it, recalled Neff. It managed to be=20 political without being dull or preachy: "It tackled everything, drag,=20= drugs, pride, politics, affairs, sex, romance, body image..." The=20 column ended eventually, but Neff said she would like to test out the=20 idea again. The Free Press also publishes excerpts from new novels regularly. But=20 no short stories or poetry. In fact, finding literary fiction in a general interest LGBT=20 publication is a rarity. The reasoning varies. Liberty Press, out of Kansas, can't fit fiction=20 into its monthly average of 52 to 68 pages. "Since we are the only=20 paper in Kansas and mainstream media covers none of our issues really,=20= we like to reserve the space for actual [local] news," said editor=20 Kristi Parker. The bimonthly Out in Jersey has run poetry - but rarely. The few=20 stanzas were from unpaid staffers who contribute other work. Space is a=20= problem, said general manager Peter Frycki, and there's no money to pay=20= for it. Plus, he added, the "quality of the pieces runs the gamut from=20= very good to complete garbage." Lavender managing editor Travis Stanton said fiction doesn't fit in=20 with his biweekly Minneapolis magazine's mandate (and soon after taking=20= over the job 19 months ago, he stopped running serial fiction). Marty=20 Davis, publisher and managing editor of Portland, Ore.'s biweekly Just=20= Out, echoes: "It's just not our format." Others have dipped in a toe, then pulled it out quickly. Jeff Balk=20 publishes three magazines that share some content (EXP St. Louis, the=20 mid-Atlantic's EXP Gayzette, and another serving Indiana, Ohio, and=20 Kentucky). "We tried what one could call erotic fiction without the=20 descriptive sex. Some people were offended by this and even referred to=20= it as pornographic.... We did not want to take any chances as we were=20 fairly new at that point." "Maybe," Balk added, "it was the wrong style of writing." But he said=20 no readers have ever asked for fiction of any kind. They want club=20 scene info and news, entertainment, horoscopes, and gossip. Yet regardless of the lack of feedback, fiction, and even poetry, are=20 an integral part of the national quarterly glossy Transgender Tapestry=20= Journal. On the one hand, few magazines get any sort of reaction to their=20 fiction. "I just think fiction doesn't punch people's buttons in the=20 same way as, say, an opinion piece that stimulates them to write," said=20= editor in chief Dallas Denny. But even if they did react, Denny said she'd humor the wants of the=20 readers only so much. "There is a genre of transgender fiction that is=20= primarily wish fulfillment." Such works "are about seeing in the mirror=20= a person (crossdressed) who approximates to some extent the internal=20 reality of the individual. I believe many of our readers would just=20 love for us to stuff this sort of thing between the covers, but I won't=20= do it. I want to expose the readers to good work." Denny said fiction rounds out her magazine, and she enjoys supporting=20 authors who produce superior writing (they used to get paid in magazine=20= copies; now they receive a one-year subscription, and retain copyright). Transgender Tapestry runs one page of poetry in every issue. "Our=20 poetry editor is quite PoMo in her tastes, and we've not had a poem=20 that rhymes in years," said Denny. Fiction appears at least twice a=20 year: "It depends on whether good stuff comes in.... We are able to run=20= all the good fiction we receive." For the first time in more than five years, Chicago's Windy City Times=20= printed a literary supplement this summer, an eight-pager for Pride,=20 instigated by two long-time contributors and fiction writers (Kathie=20 Bergquist and Owen Keehnen). These specialists, as it were, separated out the best writing, which=20 publisher Tracy Baim felt was a task beyond her time availability and=20 her more nonfiction-based, journalistic abilities. (Actually, Baim has=20= authored her own fact-based novel about gay men and lesbians serving in=20= the military during the Gulf War, but she said that fiction "was not a=20= true lifelong passion," as it is for others.) "I prefer if we have limited space that it mostly be lesser known=20 writers," added Baim, noting that most of the manuscripts hailed from=20 Chicagoans. "We did not seek out any special 'name' folks." The fees were comparable to the paper's other writing payments, and=20 most of the pieces were previously unpublished. Writers retained=20 copyright. Baim said there was good reaction from readers, and she's considering=20 doing more such supplements, and perhaps even adding a photo/art=20 category. But there's money to worry about. "With very few bookstore and literary-related ads, it makes it hard to=20= dedicate space to a project like this.... In the future, a combination=20= of web-based and print-based lit pieces might be the way we go." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:12:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: an invitation to submit to: "in words: documents of personal struggles for Queer freedom" In-Reply-To: <20040709152314.89479.qmail@web52910.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE FORWARD, THROUGHOUT THE GLOBE This an invitation to submit to: "in words: documents of personal struggles for Queer freedom" http://transdada2.blogspot.com/ In the last year we have seen the rise of Queer marriage, Queer civil rights, global pride, and acts of civil disobedience for and in the Queer community. At the same time Queer activist have been murdered, jailed and silenced. Though there are various points of oppression, from colonialist laws still in existence, legislation of separate - but equal, unimagined acts of homophobia, transphobia, AIDs/ HIV discrimination, xenophobia, racism, sexism, and misogamy; the struggle still continues; sometimes on a personal level, and at other times within the legal and legislative system. For the most part the voices we hear are on news clips. It time for all the voices and all the words of personal acts of freedom to be heard. If you identify as or with Queer, gay, trans, bisexual, lesbian, intersex, or just discriminated against in multiple systems of institutionalized oppressions, submit* your: notes, essays, interviews, letters, documents, rants, request for support, emergency action needs or poems** to: terra1@sonic.net kari http://transdada.blogspot.com/ * Work may be in the body of the text, rft. or pdf. ** Final decision publication is based on the my personal ability of deal with all the submission and my intention to make it as diverse as possible. ALREADY @ "in words: documents of personal struggles for Queer freedom" http://transdada2.blogspot.com/ *WHERE ARE ALL THE F2MS?: TRANS VISIBILITY AND ORGANIZING IN INDIA - By Satya Rai Nagpaul *Subject: India calling *A market and a Mosque, By Martin Foreman *The Gender bill of Rights by JoAnn Roberts *LGBT Rights Project Human Rights Watch *Indian supreme court on rape laws ++++++++ If work needs to be translated to english, please include original language. If the writer is unable to submit in english I will attempt to have it translated, if possible. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:26:03 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: july the 14th Comments: To: "CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM" , "webartery@yahoogroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do not force non-negative matrix factorization Do not force non-negative matrix factorization Do not force non-negative matrix factorization All persons make mistakes And all mistakes cannot exceed 30 double-spaced pages termine-archiv for an endless journey in an expanding universe so calm so cold and the people gaudier, fuzzier, stranger... red lamps; divans; cushions; bottles; works linked; losses; letters; photos; devices hi-fi - How useless. 1. Liar: (Self explanatory) who could blow my mind conscripted queues at windripped bus-stops do it yet? You told me I was *sigh* dammit, it's just her answering machine." nurses in laugh aside vomiting louder to be in the big New York apartments, three girls as there are projects to be done system does not work - fotos filme all for lil 'ol me?! and if each one of "on-premise" I'm sorry but I have rejected to stay in bed to spend the day outside to treat yourself to get out of going on the trip! to be anything but to pack light to leave the picnic, I mean to visit Melbourne to visit amazing Moscow to visit Monteforte to visit New York! to visit islands to hang out in one of the more... more> to fail to offer his services to whine at perceived injustices! to don your silliest to avoid office parties and awkward get-togethers to brush up on winter to get drunk to buy bullets to stay close to her heart to host a springtime to leave behind the stress of city life to tantalise to WOMANoeuvre him to give up, I realise to start working to get that cigarette lighter aloft to spend more money to get out of the office. Compatible to bring the conversation round to remain to stay! to head to buy new to dump the wife's to make another to let Mom know to waste to indulge our pleasure at will to uncork another bottle of burgundy, they say to break to do something else to pick up something new #1...we film #2 Then it is #3 Finally for strongly disagree here (to say the least). III) 8 ½.living watching loved ones scream out that had been dorWOMANt for seven years "The war? Which war?" coexistence in a spatial model 2. Focusing detainee loops for attaching directly to your primary & secondary weapons recalling the days of their world shakes appears to be a closely held secret (reversible) A french male of 31, I would be sincerely interested in working within your iron mine and don´t miss company. Melts in the mouth. Eat with brown bread or water crackers, with ease for riot control. You husbands know that watching your wife being to grow and move beyond tactics the ringing of the telephone wakes ***** up; Ahmad left Kabul early on Friday afternoon - las vegas hotel; american flags; online degree; life insurance; and do you ever wonder why 3:00 am? heard high pitched cries the restless world, this hall full of mirrors my apartment Source: Form smoke alarms fail I worked the graveyard shift in a 24 hour coffee shop Now we must ask ourselves what causes that be why the dead and with no fanfare? the floor saw you naked hope it was only coincidence Hours: Part-time: yes - /// #code_deleted Full-time: yes - /// #code_deleted Job Type: PerWOMANent: yes - /// #code_deleted Contract / Temporary: yes - /// #code_deleted Employer Type: Companies: yes - /// #code_deleted Agencies: yes - /// #code_deleted the residue of reality: that which seems to be - It's a risk to believe suffer lack of due fade away this didn't have to bodies and buildings gunfights now distant trail of a long-range missile defense system would like to invite you to come party with us their response to critical incidents fail to please. If you confuse this dinner dance with opulence of (jpg, gif, tif or eps format, which will all be converted to jpg), audio fragments and quicktime movies (the target-object speaks) --- Let me try and get this straight... mineralized, numb while it's noisy SSL 2.0, SSL 3.0, TLS 1.0, PCT 1.0 by losing them, then what? and of course tourism follows on short and feature length films is to attract the confused male not such a punishment, you might think WOMAN: Where ya heading? "he loves me, he loves me not"??? WOMAN: Where ever you are; I'm with you, definitely WOMAN: Need a lift? WOMAN: Ehh, yeep! but if you think about it, it's still about terrorism WOMAN: OK, get in. I am worried too. 'bout modern paradigms of servitude, personhood and the commodity overlapped, ya know? If you did not, (with a flashlight), in short pants, you may lose any credit when they do not know you still have available. nuclear dump remains unclear authority's status remains unclear future remains unclear message remains unclear life remains unclear outcome remains unclear the terrain still remains unclear crash remains unclear more than a week, now remains unclear what single girls want remains unclear ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:42:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: summer.... drn In-Reply-To: <000d01c46980$44522120$86cbfea9@reevescomo0vlm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michelle-- I always read it as "Durn," as in, "Durn, I didn't get it right yet." Best, Joseph --- michelle reeves wrote: > what the hell is "drn" > > (its been driving me nuts) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Harry Nudel" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:38 AM > Subject: summer.... > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:50:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: A Baltimore Literary Heritage? Comments: To: Aaron Cohick , bonnie , craig young , David-Baptiste Chirot , johanna brown , justin sirois , k m thurston , kevin fitzgerald , Kevin Thurston , kevin thurston , lauren bender , Lauren Bender , Lisa Marie Miller , mobtown , Sarah Kirby Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi all: this message is on the fly: I'm inviting people over for a potluck this Friday evening, 'round 7pm, suggested by Kevin Thurston. Our address is 19 Murdock Road Take Charles Street North Right on Stevenson Lane (gas station to left) left on Rodgers Forge Road Right on Blenheim Right on Murdock Go all the way to the end of the block. House is on the lefty. I'm interested in knowing what everyone thinks about perhaps documenting or at least archiving the kinds of things we're doing, literary-wise. I know there are many disparate literary groups in the area, and putting together an archive of our materials and documents, but also documenting our actions, is very important since we don't want to be brushed under the carpet of a literary heritage gone missing. I've started collecting books from around the country from small presses, but it's time we put our books/documents together to prove there is something worthy happening in Baltimore. Let's talk about putting together a library, a space for this library, which everyone is welcome to see and to add onto. Let's talk about how we would do such documenting (video/correpondence/photographs/etc.) I think a panel would be helpful, I think a reading series that is all inclusive (i.e. each press invites readers inividually to read on the same nights while opening a dialogue with each other...) I know I'm missing a lot but hopefully this dinner and this thread will open up some ideas, bring some people in to help with this issue. My Best, Christophe Casamassima -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:16:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 15 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed think gold began / guess portrayed design / turmoil comparisons fearful growing weak finally lying / prostrate transmute living custom / arranged always disdained company generosity / aside describe troublesome / praised courtly graces vermillion briars deceived / burned cared / suspect discarded loathsome nor prepared grudging / revealed inner useless experience / deceit torment shame flitting / secret then / gambling wiles natural undress / dispel deathlike / spirit tested startle quickly / defiled pierce terror hastily uproar / together discard named shining / vermilion harm / escape drew grey own / just / deeds were accustomed pattern write / conversation Nature turmoil flash thundered / know ever since struggle ever since map / renown might / know misinformed knew Nature / thinks to fare well grew extolled cunningly / pretended wrong tell / deceiver think overthrow allay song / difficult surely / subdue mark display disguise formerly / engrafted must wizardry celebrated power done / pretended anything therefore / sees discover heard reveal / vanquish heir then / remembering yielding / abject knew soon after terrify / dignified countenance decorated / letters spotted unknown bearing first / decline grew / knew innocent pale / appalled defaced secretly start up pain caught / placed expression appropriate infect / pierce discern make ready increase fly / tell / cut appearance since then unnatural grow clear / more foolish signs spirit satisfied direct / offer ceremony turn away Sammurammat braided solemn / base experience affliction desire / overthrow reveals star-lit dynasties / trial duration / considered reproof recalled / region gained discovered cave might / roars afflicts slacken treachery / bier travail also / defeat they wished / terrify go surprised knew might knowing doctors' skill / bewildered healed engrafted infect / idle talk deceiving apprehensive discovered / opportunity disclosed by their favor declare / fitting beginning pains / cease restore raise up strict / strongest tell fulfill formerly / surpasses help dwell frighten track of blood fluid coarsely violent / attack grown / split know strongly / undo remove understanding probed / wound recovered beyond hope golden / fitting repaid pierced therefore / track trouble soon after ornamented / might prepared cure pain / relieved unexpected prison grew / conquered saved recompense requite think / wickedness deserve pay homage waged war medicines refuse forsaken put forth offspring adorned worth / balanced gather together completeness wild / polite generous throne springtime burdensome / deep sleep softened steeped Nature / knew brought forth overcast / reveal adorned formerly track / might vilify also / a while before consider / wild desolate blood-stain / row unlaced boots then / helmet coat of mail drew together bereft / time begrudged suffer soften track / also a while before dawning gave in charge with sleep know / experience garlands recount placed / earth neither nor / stream contain separate / shape enter grey matter suited / Nature armed marred / quite could not / wrong foolish spring / inclining press species although / gored upbraidings reviled pierced / forsaken assails displayed gall / rancor inhospitable formerly power / resigned wandered in different directions clear / lying prostrate armor depicted / prone unrevenged intrude upon reward captive cut / two neither / nor / defeat hinder consider before supposed it pleases enslaved / tell revenge heart / slavery in their power lore / appointed tale / affliction teaching use renounce / might wandered away together guard dismay horrid draw back attempted challenge declare / deemed earlier / maintain assaulted / soon melted turn away despite / give way burned secretly unexpectedly / multicolored also / recount formerly caesars woven / lifelike go out / useless shape transformed ingenuity / preening yielding longer / mingled garland soon after / fleet _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: A Baltimore Literary Heritage? Comments: To: Aaron Cohick , bonnie , craig young , David-Baptiste Chirot , johanna brown , justin sirois , k m thurston , kevin fitzgerald , Kevin Thurston , kevin thurston , lauren bender , Lauren Bender , Lisa Marie Miller , mobtown , Sarah Kirby Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 One/more/thing: my number is 410 718 6574 'tis a potluck, so bring beers, foods, sweets, snacks, drinks, dogs... YES, DOGS!!! I LOVE ,DOGS!!! chris -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: "Did You Beat Up Any Niggahs Lately?" -- NEW! Another MP3 track from dred-i! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Free MP3s from dred-i New CD, website, and live performance coming in August, 2004! http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/07/241219.shtml NEW! Another MP3 track from dred-i! author: dred-i Jul 03, 2004 20:15 Also peep out these tracks: "Secrets to Walking on Water" http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/240972.shtml "Way of Life" http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/290540.shtml "Temple to Fear (Flies in the Buttermilk)" feat. Mumia Abu-Jamal and Omowali Imani http://publish.seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/240856.shtml This track was first made in 1997. We sampled part of Mumia from the CD "All Things Censored" and a poem by Omowali Imani called "Strange Gods" and made a hip-hop track to bring it all together. It's called "Temple to Fear (Flies in the Buttermilk)". Please copy, master, and distribute this for Mumia and all political prisoners. And get a copy of his new book "We Want Freedom". We have even more cuts and we are available for live shows (seriosu inquiries only). We're also seeking serious like-minded people to help us free the minds of the hip-hop nation and overthrow the rap industry. "Did You Beat Up Any Niggahs Lately?" feat. Malcolm X and Fred Hampton Sr. http://publish.seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/240832.shtml This is the latest track from dred-I, it's called "What Iz (Hip-Hop)". http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/07/241219.shtml ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Peace sells but who's buying?"\ Megadeth\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ Mutabartuka\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://loudandoffensive.com/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:39:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Peter Gregorio, 55 Mercer Exhibition July 13 - Aug 7, 2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Go to the link below to see an HTML version. > >http://www.petergregorio.com/55mercerexhibition.htm > > >55 MERCER GALLERY PRESENTS, >PAINTINGS OF CONTEMPLATION, BY PETER GREGORIO > >EXHIBITION INFORMATION: > >55 MERCER GALLERY >55 Mercer St. New York, NY 10013 > >Exhibition Dates: July 13 – August 7, 2004 >Opening Reception: Thursday, July 15, 6 - 9:00pm > >Gallery Hours: Tuesday – Saturday, 10 - 6:00pm >Gallery phone number: 212.226.8513 > > >New York, NY – Artist Peter Gregorio will exhibit 12 large-scale oil >paintings; he has been working on for the last four years, exploring his >experiences of ancient architectural structures, at the 55 MERCER GALLERY, >55 Mercer St. New York, NY 10013, from July 13 – August 7, 2004. There >will be an opening reception on Thursday, July 15, 6 - 9:00pm. > >The Exhibit will feature twelve canvases that explore elements and visions >from experiences he had during four trips he made to India and Nepal over >the last 13 years. The paintings are the culmination of the effects these >ancient places had on him and are his attempt to dictate the feelings of >awe and plasticity that they provoked within. > > >Low and high-resolution digital images of the paintings, as well as, a >full press packet are available at: > >http://www.petergregorio.com/presspacket.htm > > >ARTIST CONTACT: > >PETER GREGORIO > >Studio: >P.O. Box 1087 >Northampton, MA 01061 > >New York: >55 Cooper Street >New York, NY 10034 > >Phone: 413.626.5829 >e-mail: info@petergregorio.com >website: http://www.petergregorio.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:31:06 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit call me 'spin' short for 'spin the bottle' ..... rabbi mumbles layingsadiedown on mt pleasant aslant a hill overlooking the taconic ..... clams oysters octopus salad rice & bean cafe con leche flan .... see a swan hear a bird a nap a inwood ..... 7/11 sex shop opens 24/7 take off yr pants i want a large slurpie ..... a e i o u y dr n 2:30...apres bastille day...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:42:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Th. 7/15 @ Zoey's Cafe: Scott Struman & Jane Sprague MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SCOTT STRUMAN & JANE SPRAGUE Spoken Word Salon: Third Thursdays Zoey's Cafe 7:30pm July 15 Local literary luminary lunatic & Winona Ryder fanatic Scott Struman is leaving us for somewhere between Yosemite & Fresno while Taos Circus Pal and math fiend Jane Sprague has just settled nearby from Ithaca NY. Both will feature Thursday July 15 at Spoken Word Salon at Zoey's Cafe. Free but we pass the hat. Scott, a college-educated dishwasher and a member of Joan Raymund's poetry workshop in Ojai for several years, has had poems published in Rivertalk, The Northridge Review, ARTLIFE, Poetry Motel, The Santa Barbara Independent, Many Mountains Moving, The Spokane Review, Wavelength, Stained Sheets, and Last Tangos. Raised in Northridge, Scott has lived in Camarillo since 1993. Jane Sprague's poems have been published in numerous print and online magazines including kultureflash, Columbia Poetry Review, ecopoetics, Kiosk, Shampoo, Can We Have Our Ball Back? and others. Her reviews appear in Rain Taxi, Jacket, the Poetry Project Newsletter and other = journals. She publishes Palm Press, www.palmpress.org , and produced the West End = Reading Series in Ithaca, NY until relocating to the strange still = breakwater of Long Beach, California. Zoey=E2=80=99s Caf=C3=A9 805/652-0091 El Jardin Courtyard 451 E. Main St. Ventura (between Oak and California) zoeyscafe.com gwendolynalley@yahoo.com art-life.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:30:30 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he adopted an imaginary cat one day he called her mirror one day he called her echo 3:30...'my work is done here'...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Fw: Re: summer.... Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit drn well not tho maybe dumb noodle- maker darn nasty maniac dim nutty mensch but i know the guy and even if that and much more applies it simply means doctor nudell tho what he can cure is beyond me right noodles ha i guess the joke's on emm l sd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: New Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit austin i want to send stuff to blackbox can they be poems i know gallery seems closed but hey wait up you only put add up july 4 right many friends ande acquaintances on this gallery i'd love to join the party wanted to backchannel but knew not how this will be a poem soon or is based on lautreamont "the novel is a false genre, because it describes the passions for their own sake: the moral conclusion is absent.....just to describe the passion is nothing .....the pot consoles mankind." out of context when novels and poetry still competed somewhat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: "::: BlazeVOX :::" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "::: BlazeVOX :::" Organization: BlazeVOX [books] Subject: Atkinson vs. Johnson || This week on BlazeVOX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This week on BlazeVOX=20 http://www.blazevox.org=20 http://www.blazevox.org/books=20 Atkinson vs. Johnson =20 A new poetry contest ala American Idol=20 New work by Vernon Frazer=20 New web design on [books]=20 --------------------------------------------------------------- The Miseries of Poetry : Traductions from the Greek By Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson Reviewed by Michael Atkinson also: view the complete text of TMOP ---------------------------------------------------------------- A new poem by Vernon Frazer Score # 1 for Synthesizing # 5 New Titles from BlazeVOX [books]=20 http://www.blazevox.org/books Please stop by to see the new web design and features you asked for: like a Recent News category to find reviews of our books!=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Raymond L. Bianchi - Circular Descent [POD] Shane Allison - Black Vaseline and Other Poems [ebook] Geoffrey Gatza - Avatar(TM), an epic poem [POD] Ted Pelton - Bhang [POD] ---------------------------------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [books] CONTEST=20 http://www.blazevox.org/books/Prize.htm=20 To raise money and readership for the press, we are going to run a = contest. And as all contests seem to be suspect, we are going to try = something a little different, ala American Idol.=20 Online Blind Judging of three poems that represent your best work, = what-ever that may be. These poems will be placed online + with no = author name+ and readers will vote by email, or other electronic voting = mechanism to vote poets off and out of the winners circle. Poets work = voted off will be announced but names will be withheld until the final = 10 poets are chosen.=20 When names are not considered, who will get voted off first? Who's work = can stand up to the vicious energies of the poetic community. How do you = think your work will fair?=20 Get your manuscripts ready because we are going to announce the = submission period very soon! Keep watch here for all information. Prize: Cash Award as yet to be determined + a BlazeVOX [books] publishing contract for a print run of 300 copies = of winning manuscript=20 + POD contract for life Send : 3 poems that best represent your current work in electronic = format to : contest@blazevox.org and snail mail your check or money = order made payable to=20 Starcherone Books**=20 and mail to:=20 BlazeVOX [ books ] Contest PO BOX 303=20 Buffalo, NY 14201-0303 Fee: each contestant will submit 3 poems. These 3 poems will be the only = items judged. If you enter more than one time the fee goes down each = time you enter.=20 -- $25 for one set of poems=20 -- $15 for second entry=20 -- $10 all other entries=20 -- all entrants receive one copy of winning book.=20 ** for reasons of streamlining accounting we are using Starcherone Books = resources to accomplish the financial task for this contest. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:56:45 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Introduction to Alan Sondheim + book announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Launched at Incubation 3 last Monday, Sophia by Alan Sondheim Sophia; Sondheim, Alan; 2004; ISBN 1 84254 583 3; A4 portrait; 36 pp; = =A33.75 incl post in UK - email writersforum@britishlibrary.net for = overseas Orders received will be post tomorrow * Introduction to Alan Sondheim / Lawrence Upton Alan Sondheim's output is varied and energetically learned: much music, = films, graphics, performance and writing. And theory.. And pedagogy. For rough brevity, I shall call it all writing. His writing exploits the plasticity of natural and machine language and = other codes, unpicking seams of system front ends; and he is a stylist, = even with system-mediated text, the style in appropriateness rather than = familiarity. He writes - in his writing as writing - through avatars, = one at least called alan; and any narrative you construct will soon be = as reliable as a very loose handrail. It's ideal writing for anyone who = has ever been subject or object of statements like "that isn't like you" = or "now I am seeing another side of you" and not worried. He's funny, but it's not punchline humour; and it can be difficult to = know how to receive it, it destabilises. The writing comes at stand up speed, largely via email, in an inversion = of the bureaucrat's need-to-know, assuming we all do need to know. These = are emails which stay emails. This is it. Sent, soon after being = written, to a variety of internet contexts. He projects and expands and redirects personal need, working through it = intensely, hunger amidst insubstantial plenty, where the material is = imaginary. Not writing for web-content nor any purpose other than its own; not = delivery of contentment or white space infill, nor the covering of white = noise. Writing as individuation: I existed on continuous rewrite. I = lived naked on the net. Here is a sample, from shining upwards the face in which epiphany is produced and which appeals to me, mirage = of breath, perhaps I am doing this for you, an epiphany. there is always = epiphany, talk, sleep, breath, 'a state of _phantasmic exaltation_ forms = the typical introduction of the organism from space, all breath and = exaltation.' the midst of the grasping, the organisms, saying, ending in = ellipsis ... and the exaltation of violence which makes a man, a man. = among those macroscopic moments of exaltation are emotions. [.] but the interior may be lifted into exaltation, this state, i have said = to you, this state of the organism, this epiphany when worlds ..=20 a temporal detumescence or slackening - an order associated, if you = will, with an end, the resulting detumescence partaking of defuge And of that word, defuge, he writes elsewhere: fetishization transformed into discard, disgust, the image no longer = working, _that_ body used up in masturbation. It is so common that a = word is necessary here, the _defuge,_ defuse / refuge / deluge / refuse, = de-light, de-flower. Rhyme patterns, frames, defuges; it is the defuge = that draws the poem forward beyond return Literary territory; but in a place occasioned through computers, where = what is familiar is parodic, undermined / undermining as it is = manifested. Ongoing learning outputs the topology of output, cyborgian persistence = creating itself in process awareness - an idiosyncratic use of "cyborg"; = but, for a Turing test, we don't need to know about the physical layer = of the platform the ideas and creativity run on. Being on line involves awareness that not only is I an other, but is = also self-aware of being a confederation of awarenesses of which there = is neither one spokesperson nor border. Yet the net is glamorous, sans merci, and we remain animals, many alone = and palely loitering during downtime. I write myself into existence and = write myself out of existence. Yet of the many things I like about Alan Sondheim's imaginative writing = is the acceptance of and writing with human physicality - the mammal = with a machine; the self-prostheticised, making intellect. In that sense, the net, Sondheim's net, is a potential polity in which, = if one found oneself clicking with apparent reality, one might rewrite = some of the script! Usually what I talk about is "seamless virtual reality," and for an = example, I say just look around us now - if we only knew the safeword, = the keyword, we'd be back in the real world - in the meantime we're = stuck with this. This is a real possibility with constantly exploding = bandwidth; more likely, we'll be entangled in some monstrous corporate = enterprise, with advertising banners all over the place, as if we were = permanently living in Times Square. Or a third possibility, that we'd be = bound by our own sexual energies, eternally fulfilled - until the = money's gone... Incubation is an ideal environment for such a challenging creative = confederation. Ladies and Gentlemen, please join me in welcoming Alan = Sondheim [given at Incubation 3, Nottingham Trent University, 12th July 2004] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:33:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/15/04 3:54:03 AM, skyplums@JUNO.COM writes: << austin i want to send stuff to blackbox can they be poems i know gallery seems closed but hey wait up you only put add up july 4 right many friends ande acquaintances on this gallery i'd love to join the party wanted to backchannel but knew not how this will be a poem soon or is based on lautreamont "the novel is a false genre, because it describes the passions for their own sake: the moral conclusion is absent.....just to describe the passion is nothing .....the pot consoles mankind." out of context when novels and poetry still competed somewhat >> Yep, the summer gallery is done, closed, finito. The submission period has become quite short lately due to the quantity of good work that floods in as soon as I make an announcent. I'll be looking for more work in the fall, post announcement. Thanks for your interest. Read you then. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cheryl Pallant Subject: book recommendation for teaching poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I'm looking for a book akin to Queneau's Excersies in Style, with its = wide-range of styles, which leans more heavily toward poetry. The book = would be used in my poetry class. Suggestions? Thanks. Cheryl Pallant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:25:49 -0400 Reply-To: Wald Reid Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wald Reid Subject: advice sought on publishing time-sensitive poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, i have a fairly new political poem that friends are finding worthy and i'd like to publish it, but by the time i send it out, even if it gets accepted, it will be much later than november (it's an anti-bush poem called "rant for gorgeous george"---much too long to post to the list, and probably inappropriate). i guess it will still be relevant after the election, but it's best time is now. does anyone know of a place---maybe online would be best---where things happen fast and a poem with a sell-by date might have a chance of finding a home? backchannel is fine, waldreid@earthlink.net. thanks very much. diane wald ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:21:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU Subject: "My Angie Dickinson" hits 150 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, My ongiong serial piece, "My Angie Dickinson" has now reached 150 poems: http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com Haven't had time to add anymore accompanying photos lately but there are about 80 photos still in the archives. #149 A cold, professional performance And alteration –– Of facts –– Etymology: Middle English Manifest is a text –– Anthroposophy –– never mind! Bob Hope –– "Specials" –– unabated –– But I was –– impressed –– by MONSTER and SCHOOL –– No Texan accent needed –– National Review –– The Highest Crime –– Laundry –– *on the range?* Ralph Reed spearing Robby the Robot "That clammy Caliban" –– The Marriage of Synopsis And a "Big White" –– American car –– Forced across the threshold To a Bathroom with a garnet floor –– #150 The Pocket –– is the viewer Love –– for *thee*, my lunch –– Era to beat puff pastry On a razor wire fence –– The Flop –– is Xanadu evading James Belushi’s wife –– A Trade –– paper apologizing –– Unfortunate enough –– The Turn –– is an abusive nut In *this* lightweight piece –– Unique photo depicting The "Singapore Police" –– The River –– is its tree-lined quays Formica tabletop –– Instead of Texas and the Chisholm Trail The actresses are real –– -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:29:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: jennifer in nottingham MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed jennifer in nottingham woman the middle is i'm through woman answer, is. sleep i'm can't woman answer, woman through i'm is middle the woman through near the up answer, where a i'm trying answer, answer, where to i'm a _ answer, where up the poor night woman the of is moor, through the answer, is. sleep i'm can't woman answer, woman five i'm connection the where is. through near the night answer, where peep. i'm trying answer, answer, where to i'm a _ answer, where all moor, poor night woman the of is moor, night the answer, is. sleep i'm can't woman answer, is. five i'm connection the where is. the near the night answer, where in peep. i'm live answer, answer, the write, i'm not _ answer, where all moor, poor the woman the of is moor, night the answer, _ not i'm write, the answer, is. live i'm connection the where is. the near the the is. where in peep. i'm live is. answer, the write, i'm not _ answer, where night moor, poor the the the the poor moor, night where answer, _ not i'm write, the answer, is. live i'm peep. in where is. the the near where where _ not near all the answer, _ a luck peep. in where _ not radio, Jennifer five is. _ not know. miserable near night middle sleep it's drugs, radio, to the sleep miserable sports with moor, five not it's wireless. the know. peep. peep. it's it's eyes. i luck near know. an world image where luck know. an Clare and but i miserable it's fight. Randall eyes. involved unable. dies, Randall the Clare the drugs, dies, Randall flesh in to sports it's Randall where can't fight. image image Jack woman woman of world i fight. is. answer, answer, The world Jack is. where twisted wants Randall is. woman Ring. of woman _ can't the woman where flesh woman answer, answer, answer, is. answer, _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:33:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: of a future work of posed bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed of a future work of posed bodies conformed bodies piled entanglement of limbs the woman fucking her fiance the masked figures and the arms wired up inconceivable bendings and hide the pricks the head comes off and bury the head oiled bodies with missing heads and bodies tanned and churned bodies, beached bodies bones and all bones whitened bodies and the bleaching of flesh bleaching of flesh and bones they must bend all together as if one they must be one in the bending brokerage of couplings of natural laws corruption of families the CENTRIFUGALIZATION of heaped bodies the naught of family histories the disappearances t - sin(tan)t ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:39:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: New Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just one other question so i'll beprepared when fall falls are submissions thru e-mail only or snail mail too can visuals be sent thru post office and are b&w xeroxes ok ??? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:51:39 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: summer.... drn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII i did too, initially, then revised it to mean Dr. N. as in Nudel. On 14 Jul 2004, Joseph Thomas wrote: > Michelle-- > > I always read it as "Durn," as in, "Durn, I didn't get > it right yet." > > Best, > Joseph > > --- michelle reeves > wrote: > > what the hell is "drn" > > > > (its been driving me nuts) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Harry Nudel" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:38 AM > > Subject: summer.... > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:52:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Ryan Anderson: A Man ahead of His Times MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/27964.php Ryan Anderson: A Man ahead of His Times "While I love my homeland, I believe the leaders have taken this horrible road. I have no belief in what the American Army has asked me to do. They have taken me from my family and sent me to die," ...But Anderson, a convert to Islam, said he would not fight overseas against "brother" Muslims. "I am very upset about that," he said. "I love my country, but I fear my government." SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER Video records soldier's plans to join al-Qaida Thursday, May 13, 2004 By MIKE BARBER SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER FORT LEWIS -- Army Spc. Ryan Anderson talked with his lawyer and wrote on a notepad yesterday, but didn't look up at the screen showing an undercover video of his meeting near the Space Needle in February with two federal investigators posing as al-Qaida terrorist recruiters. In the 58-minute recording made inside a vehicle, with about a minute censored for security reasons, Anderson, 26, of Lynnwood is shown volunteering ideas on how to defeat U.S. military vehicles and kill soldiers, sharing military documents, making plans to desert and join al-Qaida, and his reasons for it all. "While I love my homeland, I believe the leaders have taken this horrible road. I have no belief in what the American Army has asked me to do. They have taken me from my family and sent me to die," Anderson said on the video, which was shown in a courtroom at this Army base yesterday. "I joined the National Guard because they said I won't go over and fight -- I will fight at home," he said. But Anderson, a convert to Islam, said he would not fight overseas against "brother" Muslims. "I am very upset about that," he said. "I love my country, but I fear my government." On the video, Anderson gives Jordanian ancestry on his mother's side of the family as a motivation for defecting, claiming he was sickened when fellow soldiers denigrated Arabs and Muslims without reprimand. "I believe you are what Americans would call al-Qaida," Anderson tells the agents. When they ask why they should trust him, he said: "If I walk away, I'm wanted in the country. It's called AWOL or desertion. If I leave, I cannot come back." Anderson, a member of a tank crew with the state National Guard's 81st Armor Division that deployed to Iraq in March, was arrested in February after he allegedly tried to pass information to undercover Army investigators. He is charged with five counts of trying to communicate with terrorists. Anderson seemed relaxed yesterday. He was dressed in a desert-camouflage uniform and wore black-rimmed glasses. He is appearing at an Article 32 hearing, similar to a grand jury in the civilian legal system except that Anderson can be present and cross-examine witnesses. Recommendations will be made to Lt. Gen. Edward Soriano, Fort Lewis commander, who will decide whether to convene a court-martial and whether charges will carry the death penalty. Anderson, a 2002 Washington State University graduate in military history, was known to high school classmates in Lynnwood for his Christian and paramilitary enthusiasm and profuse letter writing to newspapers. Then he embraced his version of Islam and kept his ideas flowing on Internet forums. One Internet forum sparked the case against him. As the first witness, Shannen Rossmiller, a city judge in Conrad, Mont., described yesterday how she linked the name and e-mail address of Amir Abdul Rashid on the Web site to Anderson. Under questioning and cross-examination, Rossmiller said she is a member of 7/Seas.net, a group of seven amateur "counterintelligence" Web-surfing hobbyists tracking terrorist activity and providing information to the government. Its members include four in the United States, one in Australia, one in Indonesia and another in Canada, Rossmiller said. She told investigating officer Col. Patrick Reinert she saw a posting from "Rashid" after visiting a site that carries a graphic of Osama bin Laden and an American flag burning. She began a dialogue because "he was curious whether a brother fighting on the wrong side could join or defect." "Soon very soon I will have the opportunity to take my own end of the struggle to those who oppress us, to the next level," a message from "Rashid" read. Rossmiller played along for several months until January, performing a string of Internet searches to link Rashid to Anderson. She contacted the Homeland Security Department, which put her in touch with the FBI and U.S. Army Military Intelligence agents. Special agent Ricardo Romero from the 902nd Military Intelligence Group at Fort Meade, Md., testified that he met undercover with Anderson on Feb. 8 in Lakewood and Feb. 9 at the Seattle Center. Romero said he posed as an al-Qaida recruiter. He also contacted Anderson by cell phone text messaging, giving a Detroit area code because the city is home to many Muslim Americans. "I hope you aren't FBI or NSA (National Security Agency) or something," a cautious Anderson reportedly said. "If you are who you say you are and things go where I think they are going, I will be unwelcome in the only land I've ever known as home, never to see my parents again," another message says. In the undercover video, Anderson seemingly volunteers information freely, with little prompting, pulling his weapons card, military ID and others for Ramon to photograph. Talking in great detail, Anderson on the video produced literature about the M1A1 battle tank and how to defeat it and the kill the soldiers inside. Among those at Anderson's hearing was Capt. James Yee, 36, recently restored to duty at Fort Lewis after successfully defending himself in a court-martial that grew out of his arrest in September as a suspect in an espionage ring at Guantanamo Bay. Yee talked with soldiers and watched the proceedings but declined to comment. © 1998-2004 Seattle Post-Intelligencer http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/173124_anderson13.html ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:15:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: ::Message not scanned:: summer.... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1089969349-31843-0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1089969349-31843-0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary This is an automated message. The UB Central Email System Virus Scanner was unable to properly scan this email message. This can happen for several reasons. The message may be corrupt, it may contain a virus, or it may be a valid message that is in a format that the Virus Scanner software does not understand. As a precaution, the original message has been included as an attachment. To help you decide if you want to open the attachment containing the original message, here is a listing of the brief headers. From: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:15:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: summer.... For more information on the Central Email System Virus Scanner, go to the central virus web site http://www.cit.buffalo.edu/virus ------------=_1089969349-31843-0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Received: (mailscan3 scanner-smtpd 1.39 1.9 1.15); 16 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 2765 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0000 Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (207.69.200.243) by smtp3.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0000 Received: from [192.168.167.45] (helo=wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlOon-0006Vj-00 for Poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:15:49 -0400 Message-ID: <9839133.1089969349047.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:15:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: Poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 dawn bird song echo mind's mirror.... dawn...machinedrumroar...drn.... ------------=_1089969349-31843-0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:22:24 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dawn bird song echo mind's voice dawn....machinedrumvirusnoise...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:23:54 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: july the 16th Comments: To: WRYTING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This job is no longer available. Top of Form 1 don't want me to sell 'marvel for the eyes' cloakroom so you know this already, but together two exquisite database contains content from 1980 to present www.caedefensefund.org sõftwãresõftwãresõftwãresõftwãresõftwãre bridged a 400,000-year gap disappear fast and never look back where is everyone I would speculate that it is a female track down old flames from college you will not see anything you will not see anything you will not see anything Just think about it Such is NOT the case - I don't know her name waiting in line waiting in line waiting in line are either forced to court on rape laws (two of two) by predicting mayhem, sweep up hundreds are certain human values You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE you talking to me? MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You are THE MeAN You are THE MANy You are THEe MAN You are THE MAiN You are THE MAN You are THE MAN You lol very funny are THE MAN I know the feeling; I had problems with them last week. It took 24 hours to fix. or backchannel, doesn't? You'll like this. humans, mice and rats about domestic violence and public access television a suitable percentage (%) will be realized, etc. related? you specified cannot be read due to an invalid led by a psychopath specials on Xanax depressive curiosity led by a psychopath Hey, my name is Amber and I just got my new webcam up... How ya doin positive? (gas station to left) outside city limits, either on the residual effects /// Bout time u emailed me back trounce u emailed me back dividend sway sub- committee about ten days ago Hiroshima and Nagasaki matters with documentary means the numbers of people who end up injured after a Durn, I didn't get what the hell is driving me nuts it right yet VietNam veteran - 1971 the all-but open in situ hybridization distances are not the same Or, please search again: search for: jobs in Bottom of Form 1 Is anyone stupid enough to click on? Did I pass?? yet look at so you wouldn't get auto-deleted actual [local] give us a taste AIDs/HIV 28 Tammuz 5764 it would be largely immune from any schizoid learn identified 'England' - a tiny, egg-shaped lump - Apocalypse and pilgrimage in your city - Up to 300% more Weight a new passport, spouse and staff, without your knowledge extreme to another possess and receive sexually explicit Ïåðåâîçêè ïî Ðîññèè îò 1 êã bridged a 400,000-year gap disappear fast and never look back I would speculate that it is a female track down old flames from college -=-=-=- =-=-=- They use a distorted lens you will not see anything you will not see anything you will not see anything Just think about it Such is NOT the case - I don't know her name waiting in line waiting in line waiting in line but hey, nope, could it be? "I want to talk about sex now," warm towels massage oil, heated bed, table, or large area try doing so very close to but not quite on that spot - except perhaps "pyramid effect" with multiple in a wide flat stroke I almost lost my home you specified cannot be read due to an invalid led by a psychopath specials on Xanax depressive curiosity led by a psychopath paper & ink, and a sound-recording device of variable runnability Finally, it is very useful if you put quite deep under the North Sea Go all the way to the end of the block. ON DVD OR VHS (disambiguation) things like don't finish are to die for including basic payments, supplements, exceptional need / urgent need payments bands by fluorescence feel a sense of no space to define the criminal face at radio wavelengths But that is fine with me too - world encoded in a bacterial genome 7:27pm (6:20) Raanana 8:29pm rank 29/6 32/7 1/1-7:26pm (6:19) Beit Shemesh 8:27pm prohibitions 1 4 5-7:28pm (6:21) Netanya 8:29pm positive 1 2 3-7:27pm (6:20) Rehovot 8:28pm words 1484 1461 2945-7:07pm (6:20) Petach Tikva 8:29pm letters 5652 5773 11425 are not always the same with "Only for me" option. Problem: in the mid-to-late 90's (only in America) fall somewhere between these poles without written consent from is a violation of international copyright law. To secure permission, please contact please contact please contact ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:03:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Frogs Caught Stealing Dick Cheney's Iraq Oil Money Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Frogs Caught Stealing Dick Cheney's Iraq Oil Money Through U.N. Program: By Columbine Lynchpin They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Call for AY Abstracts In-Reply-To: <20040716.023638.-83733.10.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Call for abstracts: The Quest for Yasusada (title tentative) will gather commentary from various sides of the Araki Yasusada debate. Contributors to date include Bill Freind, Marjorie Perloff, Eliot Weinberger, Mikhail Epstein, Forrest Gander, Bob Perelman, Hosea Hirata, Brian McHale, David Wojahn, Jenny Boully, Gabriel Gudding, Dale Smith, David Rosenberg, and others. The editor is interested in proposals for essays from various sides of the debate, including ones that seek to theoretically extend charges of the Yasusada work’s “ethical improprieties.” Please send abstract proposals of approximately 250 words to Anthony Robinson by September 15, 2004: antrobin@clipper.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:05:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Cleveland? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where in Cleveland does poetry happen? When? Thank you. Gerald Schwartz gejs1@rochester.rr.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:14:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: The Printer Printed, by Alan Loney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable News from Cuneiform: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/ Cuneiform Press is pleased to announce the publication of Alan Loney's = Meditatio : the printer printed : manifesto with an introduction by = Steve Clay of Granary Books. ALAN LONEY is the author of eight books of poetry; his dear Mondrian, = won the New Zealand Book Awards prize in 1977. For several years he = edited the magazine A Brief Description of the Whole World; as printer = and publisher he has operated Hawk Press, Black Light Press and The = Holloway Press. The Writers Group brought out Reading | Saying | Making: = Selected Essays in 2001. Presently Loney lives in Australia. Robert = Creeley writes "Alan Loney's work has always been at the cutting edge of = New Zealand's place in world literature."=20 As Steve Clay rightfully notes in his introduction, this book is sure to = take its place among landmark titles such as Clifford Burke's Printing = Poetry (1980) and Harry Duncan's Doors of Perception (1983). This book = is both essential, and enjoyable reading for book artists, printers and = poets alike. Penny Griffith writes, "Meditatio is a graceful reconsideration of the = role of typography in relation to art, the reader, and the world of the = book and reading."=20 This book was produced in an edition of 200, and available for the very = reasonable cost of $10.00 per copy (including S & H in the United = States. For international orders, please add $3.00. Order directly from: Cuneiform Press 383 Summer Street Buffalo, New York 14213 More details & images at: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/printer.html Order at: http://www.cuneiformpress.com/dist.html Questions: ks46@buffalo.edu View other new titles from Cuneiform by Robert Creeley, Craig Dworkin, = Ron Silliman & Andrew Levy by visiting: = http://www.cuneiformpress.com/home.html Cheers, Kyle=20 http://www.cuneiformpress.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Cleveland? In-Reply-To: <000a01c46b78$95daab80$b37aa918@rochester.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cleveland IS poetry. You can quote me. ~mIEKAL On Friday, July 16, 2004, at 04:05 PM, Gerald Schwartz wrote: > Where in Cleveland does poetry happen? When? > > Thank you. > > Gerald Schwartz > gejs1@rochester.rr.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: FWD: Save the Coach House: A Petition Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [this is a heads up for everyone on these lists. internet petitions are pretty iffy but I think this is an important document to generate regardless of its actual effect on policy decisions. to compile how we as literary communities regard Coach House Press & its contribution to literature small press publishing. ~mIEKAL] Subject: Save the Coach House: A Petition As many of you know, Coach House has been fighting to save its home. Our landlord, Campus Co-op Residence Inc., plans to expand its own property, and this development directly threatens the buildings that Coach House has occupied for forty years. However, we have just received word that we're on the list for recommendation for historical designation. They'll vote on it at city council next week. Now, this is only the first stage. After city designation (which is certainly not guaranteed), we need provincial designation, and then we need to work with Co-op to make things work well for both of us. This is a great start, but we still need your support! So we're asking you to please sign our petition, and to pass it along to anyone else you think might like to help. Check it out at: www.chbooks.com/savech/view.php For more information, check our website, www.chbooks.com/savech. We also invite you to join us for an open house on Thursday, July 29, between 3 and 8 p.m. There will burgers, beer and, of course, books. As well as guided tours for new visitors and, at 5:30, some rabble-rousing. Questions? Comments? Email savecoachhouse@chbooks.com. Thanks so much for your support! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:57:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed violently / secretly Ashur-resh-ishi salty nostrils steer / think Ashur-resh-ishi was minded melancholy / graceful hang down assaults pains secretly / briskly torn more / easy gentle rabble masses position Master / effort woven flowed surpassing solid adorned peacock multicolored continue / to bright name servants / protect powers at once / harming possessions fashioned for protecting dwell / deteriorate deadly place painstaking / as if prizes formerly swords order / coats of mail uninhabited appearance firmly / tormenting that voice tasting frail wasting / away put into boil / before burnt destroy helper / promised ruin smother pay for disobedience safety wasted away place / fierce approaching / achieved bearing purpose song / harmony echo attire multicolored garment / turned a rich silk stolen plotted scowled / threatening together pining / pain nearly wretchedness brandish panic-stricken / exhausted feared pure adornment spirit bloody steeped / clearly clasp company blindfolding interpret / fierce / foolish base debauchery more count placed resolved / enterprise therefore counsel standing place obscured planned terrified / immediately "wrote by force..." try cruelty plunge fierce directed / suddenly although dismally heal begrudged / reward just recently look over term of life pierce stood waited / learned pierced divide intestines immediately / then think means pain mate released before / overturned destroyed perilous allayed / before imagined enforced / left sorrowful success mistakenly thinking consult / flashy spirit secret placed full of cares know foolishness roles / moan CARNATIONS formerly destroy entangled practice / Nature prey attempt also quoth / contrive believe form outlast by vigor / straightway morning prayers more fitting "mate, evening star..." adorn continuously now and then lifegiving begin / might request discord praise / stately suits made red winding uncurdled saw lower / vermilion "a fast color, tho modest..." tie want it / usual garland at last pay fear / continuously horrid give life to unsuspected sanctity also labor imagine reward / adorned descended disobedience granted / complaint make their peace every part / it pleases birds praise / look after certainly / cease "Nature gone quickly all serpent..." known nearby displease / by no means delay breeding / easily reason / harm's morsel certainly prepare slay / gone conceal unnatural falsify / devise accurately at once prominent more / merrily from nothing harm all / around drown at all times nor offend / above to this place part / them all by two / and no more birds iniquities / make ready row upon row doubt unless lessened haste build up together / pleasing shun evermore / slay obliged unreservedly condemned in no sense / grievous soon servitude appoint in haste tear / apart themselves scarcely / forbid spring unless breathe / say stratagem destroy / bright crowd it pleases avenge shame / murderers pay for curse harm / torn quickly help / without praise belongs once upon a time going kingdoms marvel at defeated / place know obedient offense many times over in return vengeful see to / grief kindle end prosper / ruined secret merciful / if spent go mercy / slain kill power / part villain infamy commit / quickly judgment plain free revealed forsake agreement delay / harm imposters make ready payment / grown cold tortured painful convicted certainly unprofitable prepared / charge readily / unfit promise improved severely/ tricks make ready feeble doubt prone / go lengthwise exhausted part contrivance delay / count nor move misfortune examines judged / words darkness / come surely surely promised repeat it pleases river doubt favor / quickly many also clamor / together eager for torment avenge themselves deprive / power capture reproach / dominion throne rank depart ruined / truly deceived taken torment be parted company carried off always / ruling command judges doubt / place judgment violate / everywhere deceit talk / learned dark / ceased nor harm / haste guarded certainly arrange / contrive together prepared torment misfortune buried / earth reason together aside / anything shrouds which were thus laid destroyed / afterwards certainly each of them sorcerer more nearly slew nothing furious slay befall must everywhere / speak meanwhile doubt living / aside stupefied ruined quaked natural / revoked themselves dark afterwards wickedness repaid allowed / wrongdoing judgment separate accursed / together known cease / reward shown _________________________________________________________________ Planning a family vacation? Check out the MSN Family Travel guide! http://dollar.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Nott MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Nott Sniffing from St Pancras & out, little connectivity in evidence by the trackside of the Nottingham train - go figure. How are you and the rest of Europe? Time length - about 5 minutes - Network 1: "HBH3R0ES" BSSID: "00:A0:F8:35:C9:0D" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 11 Maid : "Yes" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 2 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:35 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:35 2004" Network 2: "Thameslink" BSSID: "00:80:C8:AA:E5:8D" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 06 Maid : "Yes" Marion : 22.0 LLC : 3 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 3 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:49 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:49 2004" Network 3: "NETGEAR" BSSID: "00:09:5B:5E:9A:AE" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 11 Maid : "Yes" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 2 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:51 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:52 2004" Network 4: "default" BSSID: "00:80:C8:0B:C6:D8" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 06 Maid : "Yes" Marion : 22.0 LLC : 1 Sher : 1 Wood : 1 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:58 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:04:59 2004" Network 5: "BTOpenzone" BSSID: "00:04:23:4B:93:91" Type : probe Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 00 Maid : "No" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 2 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:20 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:21 2004" Network 6: "" BSSID: "00:02:2D:81:D6:AF" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 00 Maid : "No" Marion : 0.0 LLC : 0 Sher : 4 Wood : 4 Weak : 0 Total : 4 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:33 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:33 2004" Network 7: "110" BSSID: "00:A0:F8:35:A2:F0" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 05 Maid : "No" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 2 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:39 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:42 2004" Network 8: "110" BSSID: "00:A0:F8:35:A1:97" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 11 Maid : "No" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 13 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 13 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:40 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:05:45 2004" Network 9: "Frenger" BSSID: "00:40:05:5E:22:84" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 06 Maid : "No" Marion : 36.0 LLC : 4 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 4 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:06:42 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:06:42 2004" Network 10: "crohanlan" BSSID: "00:0C:41:D5:3E:DA" Type : infrastructure Friar : 802.11b Tuck : "None" Channel : 11 Maid : "No" Marion : 11.0 LLC : 2 Sher : 0 Wood : 0 Weak : 0 Total : 2 Robin : "Sun Jul 11 09:07:59 2004" Hood : "Sun Jul 11 09:07:59 2004" __ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:34:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: nightmare placed at the end MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed nightmare placed at the end of dreaming then working back towards the dream of human hatred then there's a moment of total extinction hieroglyphics of love and war americans and the prison of abu ghraib they'll tear it down to be sure i reduced with sorensen and down to 5 frames a second and still it's 22 megabytes that's the problem with it the bulk of witnessing, no matter how distorted you can just about make out the face and its expressions they're nameless it's still the bulk of witnessing i took a break from war and went and made these pieces i just took a break and worked on something else i'm back and writing this with these pieces they were placed at the beginning, i edited i placed them at the end http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/warlove.jpg http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/abughr.mov _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:14:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Heros and Heroines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These are the heros and Heroines: R. Campbell, Republican, CO "NAY" R. Chafee, Republican, RI "NAY"=20 R. Collins, Republican, ME "NAY" I. Jeffords, Independent, VT "NAY" J. McCain, Republican, AZ "NAY"=20 R. Snowe, Republican, ME "NAY" J. Sununu, Republican, NH "NAY" There were others, of course, those in the Senate who voted conscience = not party convictions. =20 But these, in my estimation, made a major difference in the bid to = defeat president Bush's efforts to create an amendment to the U.S. = Constitution to ban same sex marriages. =20 Those of us who intend to honor article XIV of the Constitution see = those words as guaranteeing the rights and privileges to all = citizens...regardless of sexual orientation, etc. etc. etc. =20 Marriage is both a privilege granted by the state and a right of the = "liberty" of citizenry, irrespective of ones gender. =20 Article XIV.=20 Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and = subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States = and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any = law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the = United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, = or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within = its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.=20 ********************************************************************** This fight is far from over, if one reads Senator Frists words following = the defeat on Wednesday. =20 Perhaps it's time for the state of Tennessee to look at changing = senators? =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 04:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ultra 'i don't want to sell i want to be bought' violet ..... henry free art acres george .... andy's calvin warhol klein ..... billy jim kluver dine .... eat e.a.t. 4:00...ate a frank,,,ate a frank...ate a frank..berkeley heights...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:25:19 -0400 Reply-To: marcus@designerglass.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Cleveland? In-Reply-To: <000a01c46b78$95daab80$b37aa918@rochester.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Check out http://www.pwlgc.com M On 16 Jul 2004 at 17:05, Gerald Schwartz wrote: > Where in Cleveland does poetry happen? When? > > Thank you. > > Gerald Schwartz > gejs1@rochester.rr.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:00:47 +0100 Reply-To: Michael Rothenberg Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: the 1st dead drunk dublin festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the 1st deaddrunkdublin festival weds 4 august, 6pm at mother red caps near christchurch, dublin F R E E ! a gathering of 11 poets & writers with live music and video performance - rhythm - music contributors from ireland, the usa, wales, england, germany and canada michael rothenberg : nessa o'mahony : frank walsh ulrike gerbig : john costello : brendan hickey john g. hall : mair=C3=A9ad byrne :terri carrion stephen moran : andrew lovatt musicians & bands: tba --- come get drunk with us! for INVITE or info email info@deaddrunkdublin.com deaddrunkdublin & other imaginal spaces... www.deaddrunkdublin.com a n d r e w l o v a t t : e d i t o r d e a d d r u n k d u b l i n & o t h e r i m a g i n a l s p a c e s poems - live readings - stories - writings manifestos - digital galleries - flash & movies new poets : ward l. abel, vernyce dannells, ulrike gerbig, john g hall, andrew lundwall, duane locke, bonnie macallister, aoife mannix, corey mesler, tim sullivan audio : live reading of whispers in a pig's ear by andrew lovatt new stories : bedtime stories 3am by lane ashfeldt; the annihilation of the spectator by sean brijbasi; ghost land by rodger jacobs,=20 dingaling by tim sullivan; chrono-logic wheel by andrew lovatt links & reviews of other interesting places...=20 to contribute, email the editor@deaddrunkdublin.com.=20 guidelines? explore the boundaries of experience & push the doors of perception. dig deep & look high. http://www.deaddrunkdublin.com/?eml=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 15 Jul 2004 to 16 Jul 2004 (#2004-199) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerald, I teach at John Carroll U, in Cleveland's East side. Poetry happens all over: Mac's Backs Paperbacks in Cleveland Heights is a good place (Suzanne DeGaetano is a manager there and huge supporter of poetry, on the Poets and Writers League of Greater Cleveland, which is a good site to check out because they list all the main events). Of course, my humble institution sponsors a half dozen readings a year, though this year we're already all booked. Best to you, Phil Metres >Where in Cleveland does poetry happen? When? > >Thank you. > >Gerald Schwartz >gejs1@rochester.rr.com Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:11:04 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: upcoming readings at Wordsworth's and Bowery POetry Club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Just wanted to let people know about two upcoming readings in Cambridge MA and NYC, for those interested. I'll be performing some texts from my translation of Lev Rubinstein's "Catalogue of Comedic Novelties," which Mr. Silliman chatted up on his blog as one of them important poetry books of the year. It should be fun. Ronald Reagan might be there. Wordsworth's Books (30 Brattle Street) Saturday, July 24th, 5:00 pm BOWERY POETRY CLUB Sunday, July 25 2004, 8:00pm Balaklava/EEPS reading:PHILIP METRES (translator: Catalogue of Comedic Novelties by Lev Rubinstein), ILYA BERNSTEIN Attention and Man), RITA BALMINA ++ $5 Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 (216) 397-4528 (work) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek White Subject: Call for Submissions::: SleepingFish 0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A reminder to those who didn't catch it the first time, I'm still seeking dream-inspired, genre-bending submissions of textual art for the next issue of SleepingFish... Full guidelines at < http://www.sleepingfish.net/submit.htm > Thanks, regards, Derek White < www.calamaripress.com > < www.sleepingfish.net > < www.5cense.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:35:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William A Sylvester Subject: For Kevin Killian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII may mynah birds and lorikeets bless all wombats and bandicoots like i mean if it happens ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:43:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Rhizomes Issue 8, Spring 2004: Retro-Futures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2020665663-1090097003=:25458" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2020665663-1090097003=:25458 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Rhizomes Issue 8, Spring 2004: Retro-Futures Why was the future of the 1950s and 1960s, as projected in design, so fanciful? Why do contemporary trends in design so often embody neo-traditional and/or "retro" aesthetics? Why do the radical futures of the past seem so na=EFve, while the stale futures of today seem so sensible? In seeking possible answers to these questions, more general questions about culture and temporality emerge: What did the future mean in the past? What will the past mean in the future? What do these concerns mean for us right now? The essays and media reviews in Rhizomes #8, Retro-Futures, engage issues of future pastness, retro aesthetics, and various incarnations of technology and posthumanism. Essays in Rhizomes Issue 8 include: =DF "Futurama, Autogeddon: Imagining the Superhighway from Bel Geddes to Ballard" by Helen J. Burgess looks at Bel Geddes' narrative of the golden future of the Interstate. She finds it haunted from the start by the specter of its own death and its attempt to use this future-perfect to cover over the ghosts it would leave behind, both human and animal: the destruction of delicate environments, the ever-present road-kill, the high-speed car smashes. =DF "Letters from an Unknown Filmmaker: Chris Marker's Sans Soleil and the Politics of Memory" by Chuck Tryon uses the conceit of the traveling filmmaker to suggest a new way of seeing and thinking not only about our relationship to images but also about the role of images-cinematic and otherwise-in producing our experience of time. =DF "Machinic Rhetoric, Highways and Interpellating Motions" by Kevin Kuswa moves through a framework of the nation, the state, and capitalism in order to better understand the highway machine and its effects in the United States. =DF "Apocalypse, Ideology, America: Science Fiction and the Myth of the Post-Apocalyptic Everyday" by Matthew Wolf-Meyer rereads post-apocalyptic narratives ~V including Walter M. Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz, Philip K. Dick's Dr. Bloodmoney, or How We Got Along After the Bomb, Robert Heinlein's Farnham's Freehold, and Kim Stanley Robinson's The Wild Shore ~V as attempts at the isolation of essentially American ideological formations that, among other things, project a homogenized American future. =DF "Counting Sheep: Dolly does Utopia (again)" by Julian Yates charts the passage of one "idea" that has traveled from the texts of Renaissance Humanist Thomas More into a series of contemporary sites in popular culture: the figure of a speaking sheep, individuated from the flock, summoned to the table talk of its human masters, and made to speak the truth about labor. =DF "Choose Your Own Sexuality: An Adventure in Queer History" by Brooke M. Campbell uses the model of a hypertext "choose your own adventure" as an experiment in queer metahistory. Hypertext, she argues, sheds the dead weight of additive models and embraces and the internal disintegration of traditional history. =DF "The Countdown of Time and the Practice of Everyday Life" by Hai Ren examines the relationship between time-telling and the practice of everyday life in contemporary China by focusing on the historical process of the Hong Kong countdown in the 1990s. =DF In "Time and the Fragmented Subject in Minority Report," Martin Hall uses the Lacanian mirror stage and the future anterior register to explore how the film establishes discourses around the dichotomy of fixed or fragmented subjects. =DF "Zones of Morbidity" by Jamie Skye Bianco tracks a broad swath of politics, histories, texts, policies, and theoretics in order to allow several views of an emergent politic: the production of morbidity for profit and living by privatized subscription. Reviews for Retro-Futures feature Digital Media Revisited (edited by Gunnar Liest=F8l, Andrew Morrison, Terje Rasmussen) as reviewed by Barry Mauer; "Dynamic Media" ~V IPCC 2003 Plenary Session (presented by J. Michael Moshell) as reviewed by Rudy McDaniel; and Representations of the Post/Human: Monsters, Aliens and Others in Popular Culture (by Elaine L. Graham) as reviewed by Tammy Powley. For the complete Rhizomes Issue 8, Spring 2004: Retro-Futures, please visit our website at http://www.rhizomes.net --0-2020665663-1090097003=:25458-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:06:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Allawi Shoots Prisoners In Cold Blood To Pass Litmus Test Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Allawi Shoots Prisoners In Cold Blood To Pass Cheney/Rumsfeld/Negroponte Litmus: "If The Walls And Floor Are Stained Blood Red, You Passed. You Got The Disease," Shrieks John Negroponte, Former CEO Of Honduran Death Squads Ltd.: "The Pattern Is The Same Where Ever Negroponte Goes. He's The Best. Simply The Best." E. Howard Hunt Endorsing the Iraq Ambassador's New Private Security Firm Based In Tirana: "Its Not That Americans Don't Understand The Slaughter In Iraq Is For Oil, Its That They're Happy For The Paternalism And Don't Want Rankle Daddy," Chuckles Chevron CEO Ken Derr By J.Q. LUMPYLIP They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:16:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Books I like and the reasons why - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Books I like and the reasons why - I've been traveling and working for the past couple of months; here's the latest - texts and others I'm fascinated by - Google, The Missing Manual, Sarah Milstein and Rael Dornfest, O'Reilly: This is the third book on Google help that O'Reilly's published, and for most people, this is by far the best. Google is expanding, building a search empire, for better or worse; there are all sorts of experimental Google searches, as well as an enormous number of configurable options. I use Google, because it's clean, fast, and hasn't disappointed me - and this is probably the best guide out there. You don't have to know programming, by the way, to use this. And like all O'Reilly books (well, almost all of them), it's well-written, interesting reading, with no fluff. destruction in art, Bob Cobbing, writers forum (writersforum@britishlibrary.net). I'm not all that interested in concrete poetry and/or destruction art, but this work is of great interest, a series of 21 prints of Cobbing's Typestract One and the events program for The Destruction of Art Symposium - all increasingly mangled, none of them readable. The prints blur to almost black. I'm reminded of Latham's Skoob, the work of Dom Sylvester Houedard (who has had an interesting career - do a Google search) - and, most recently, Gerhardt Richter's photographic sequences of sections of his paintings. In all of this material there's a sense of loss, the attempt for something else to 'emerge' or 'give,' and in general a melancholia related to the violence of everyday life. Check this out. On the other hand, if you want an amazing Cobbing / Peter Mayer work, ask for concerning concrete poetry, from the same press (run by Lawrence Upton at the least!). This book, also inexpensively produced, is a reprint from 1978, and includes the work of a number of people, from John Furnival through Porfirius Optatianus. But what makes it remarkable are the contents: chapters on 'The Term Concrete,' 'Some Historical Statements and Manifestos,' 'On Semantic Poetry,' 'Some Myths of Concrete Poetry,' two chronologies of visual and sound poetry, and so forth. Wonderful! EDA: An Anthology of Contemporary Turkish Poetry, edited by Murat Nemer-Nejat, Talisman House Publishers, is spectacular. I knew nothing of these poets, but the themes and styles, at least for me, are unique. I tested it on my father, who's 90 and reads history and literature incessantly, and he also was fascinated. I love Sami Baydar and Lale Muldur's works - but it all reads well. I can't tell of course how good the translations are, but the works are excellent in English as well. Eden Eden Eden, Pierre Guyotat, Creation Books. I'd not read Guyotat's work before, so you're probably far ahead of me. Needless to say, it resonates in its apothecaries of relentless sexuality and violence, somewhat reminiscent of Kenji Siratori's work (see below). Stylistically most of it runs on gerunds and participles; I've never read anything like it. If there's a writing degree zero, this is it. Do check it out. It was originally published in French in 1970, by the way. Crum, The Novel, Lee Maynard, Vandalia Press. Crum had a population of 219 in West Virginia, for real; the book is part fiction, part memoir, and if you ever want to understand West Virginia or for that matter, any American rural/mining area, begin here. It resonates. It was banned in Crum and shouldn't have been. It's wonderful. The Ethics of the Dust: Ten Lectures to Little Housewives on The Elements of Crystallisation, by John Ruskin, 2nd edition, 1877. This is one of the truly weirdest books I've ever come across, and that's saying a lot. In his later years, Ruskin fell in love with a nine-year-old girl; the rest is history, both found and lost. The book is a summary of his beliefs in terms of crystallization (reminding one of Stendhal in the matter, but not in manner or content) - if you ever see a copy, pick it up. Likewise, Prophetic Writings of Lady Eleanor Davies, edited by Esther S. Cope, Oxford. Mid-seventeenth century writings, the like of which, being outside the kin and ken, I've never come across; apparently there were other prophets of the time. The language is various and strange. As the introduction says, 'Some sentences lack subjects or verbs' and the whole is rather breathless and Beat Generationist by loose default. Again, if you see it... The Knapsack, edited by Herbert Read, 1939, is one of my favorite small books, containing a plethora of literary excerpts that somehow match my taste; it's a tiny book, but one of the few anthologies I can read over and over again. Just finished Volney's Ruins, by the way - again, look for it. D.C. Lau's translations of Confucius and Mencius are excellent, by the way - I'm using them with a slow-reading list I'm on, dealing with Chinese classical philosophy. HUMAN_WORMS, Kenji Siratori, iUniverse Inc. is a beautiful book. I've been reading Kenji's works for a long time; at one point, I was modifying texts he was emailing on. Much of his writing, including this, sounds like uncompromising cyberpunk cutup, but it isn't; in fact, I have no idea how it's written. I love it for that. Recently, Jim Reith wrote a program for me that will take a text, place the words in an array, and access them according to an arbitrary mathematical function that I can define. It's the closest I get to Kenji's style myself, but his work is far denser, and darker in furious post-Bladerunner style. This particular work is his most advanced - and beautiful - to date. Phrases are repeated - 'hunting for the grotesque WEB' for example - these are broken and recombined like an insane DNA. If you're getting one Siratori book - and you should - this is the one. I have three Sheila Murphy books here - she's one of the most interesting 'subliminal' poets around - by which I mean everything is beneath the surface of what appears in wildly various styles - but all related - of the three - Green Tea With Ginger (Potes and Poets) - Letters to Unfinished J. (Green Integer) - and Concentricity (Pleasure Boat Studio) - I prefer the second _and its italics_ - or the third - of which on the back cover John Tritica references the 'tone complexion' and 'promenade of images' - which he also puts into quotations - it that, the centrifugal force as if the sections split apart - they don't - cerebellar sparks of adjacency but widely disparate imagery/imaginary - At this point I'd also like to mention in passing - The wryting list, co-moderated by Ryan Whyte and myself (the descendent of the old fiction-of-philosophy list that I started circa 1994-5) - some of the best experimental writing I've seen is there - Sophia - my sophia.txt, published by Writers Forum or writers forum just a few days ago - this is the main theory/philosophical text I've written - one might be interested - The Compaq Presario notebook I bought a short while ago with the Athlon 3000 64-bit processor - cool and fast and the wireless _reaches_ - I've been using it for production and it responds well - The Zaurus 5500 linux-based PDA I've used for almost the past year - this is an incredible mini-computer - it runs Mathematica-like programs, full linux, perl, anything you want to put on it - with a wireless card Kismet is great on it - etc. - Peter Krapp's Deja Vu: Aberrations of Cultural Memory, Minnesota - I'm still in process of reading this and I've not been focusing all that well (with the residency at West Virginia University followed by the Incubation Conference at Nottingham) - but I'll cover this - I asked for a review copy - an outstanding chapter on Heiner Muller - more later - - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:58:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: (Albany) BROADCAST LIVE/ BENEFIT FOR MCV Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >just a quick reminder that on : >******************************************************** >Friday July 23 @ 8p.m. there will be an outrageous >show at Valentine's ( 17 New Scotland Ave ) >$10 >all proceeds benefit the >Malawi Children's Village > >Come out to see Albany's hot new live music experience >in spoken word and Hip Hop > >Broadcast Live w/ special guests > >Dub Reggae DJ : GT >Folk Singer: Alisa Sikelianos >Keyboardist: Randi DellAcqua > >From Head First: Geoff Klose > >Enjoy the music and enjoy helping out MCV _________________________________________________________________ Planning a family vacation? Check out the MSN Family Travel guide! http://dollar.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:42:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Minky Starshine Subject: Gone Daddy Gone: Facture? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is Facture still publishing? (direct responses to me are fine). http://webdelsol.com/Facture/ I have two packages, one from the postmaster, that indicate no. The e-mail, like a smore without a marshmallow gun, does not fly. The ice cream truck and thunder, Deborah Poe poebot@stny.rr.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:48:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: antennae 6 now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANTENNAE 6 July 2004 $6 poems or writing by stacy doris / charles alexander / chris alexander / tim peterson / kent johnson / summi kaipa / chuck stebelton / michael peter / noah eli gordon / clark coolidge / mark wallace / lewis warsh / kristen gallagher a complete and verbatim transcription of an orally improvised audio tape by steve benson a music score by zachary seldess an excerpt of a "yearlong writing project" by goat island performance group Payable to Jesse Seldess / 2325 W Ainslie #1 / Chicago / IL / 60625 E-mail: j_seldess@hotmail.com North American subscriptions outside the US, please add $3. Other foreign subscriptions, please add $5. ------------ Also, copies of Antennae 5, 4, and 3 are still available at $4 per copy. Contents listed below. ------------ ANTENNAE 5 summer 2003 $6 poems or writing by rodrigo toscano / dennis barone / sawako nakayasu / steven timm / michael magee / kyle schlesinger & thom donovan / drew kunz / mark tardi / leslie scalapino / patrick f durgin / dawn michelle baude / chris pusateri / rusty morrison / stephen ratcliffe a music score by keumok heo a lecture ("Parasitology") by matthew goulish ANTENNAE 4 winter 2003 $4 poems or writing by john m. bennett / oswald egger (trans. michael pisaro) / kerri sonnenberg / the wrong object / andrew norris / jules boykoff / k. silem mohammad / jessica smith / heather nagami / ron silliman / kaia sand / david pavelich / daniel borzutzky / stacy szymaszek music scores by jeff snyder / peter edwards coffee-stained cover by ryan weber ANTENNAE 3 summer 2002 $4 poems by brian strang / mark salerno / lyn hejinian / spencer selby / sheila murphy / bob harrison / laynie browne / music or performance scores by mark booth / jennifer walshe / amnon wolman / gerhard stäbler / Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: recommendation needed - poet named "Stephanie" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am planning a reading series in which the last reading will be given by three Stephanies. I have two and am still in need of one more. If you know a poet who might be willing to travel to St. Louis next April to read in the Three Stephanies reading, please send her my way. Thank you in advance, Aaron Belz http://belz.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: IT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed IT http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/fluxs.mov burnout yy:793954190453315214564990319109012276610901228731090122873327688 yy:793954190453315214564990399109012276610901228791090122879327688 yy:793954190453315214564990479109012276610901228891090122889327688 yy:793954190453315214564990559109012276610901228931090122893327688 yy:793954190453315214564990639109012276610901229041090122904327688 __ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:00:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: small pictures with tiny details of all world futures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed small pictures with tiny details of all world futures small this this http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld1.jpg world world is is world world http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld1.jpg this this small images pictures tiny tiny symbols of future http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld3.jpg http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld4.jpg of symbols and details details pictures images future this futures world it all it this futures http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld2.jpg of of small and images with tiny symbols the this http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/futureworld3.jpg this of symbols signs details of in and future future world all it all it small pictures with tiny details of all world futures this future of this world it is all signs and symbols of the telling of this future in pictures and images _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:12:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: Sign the Save Coach House petition! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >As many of you have heard, Coach House Press (Printing and Books) is in >danger of losing its home. Information about our fight against this >eviction--as well as an easy to sign petition--is available on our website: > >http://www.chbooks.com/savech/view.php > >I know that many of you have already signed the petition, but those that >haven't, I ask that you do as soon as possible. Obviously, the more support >the better! (Apologies if you've already been bugged about this before.) > >Thanks very much, >Jason ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:41:13 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ultra viva super A la dawn...$$$...color o'...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:57:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Richard Lopez Interviews Tom Beckett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://jacketmagazine.com/25/lopez-beck.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:38:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Escent Subject: "Jacket magazine needs reviewers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacket magazine has advertised for people to review books for the magazine. Further information here: http://jacketmagazine.com/reviews-db/unassigned.html John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine (Please don't reply to this email address.) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:06:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gone Daddy Gone: Facture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've heard from editor Paul Naylor that Facture is no more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:34:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: U of Portsmouth creative writing conference 24-25 July (soon!)... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i've just been fwded this announcement... looks like fun... for inquiries contact ... best, joe ------------------------------------------- UNIVERSITY OF PORTSMOUTH FACULTY OF HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES SCHOOL OF CREATIVE ARTS, FILM AND MEDIA GREAT WRITING 2004 Writers, Creative Writing and the Contemporary World 24-25 JULY 2004 PROGRAMME Friday 23rd July 2000 - 2400 The Old Vic Pub in St Paul's Road is the optional gathering place for delegates upon arrival. Saturday 24 July 0800 - 0845 Arrival at Portland Building and Registration in the Atrium 0845 - 0900 Introduction and Welcome 0900 - 1030 Session One Peter Wise "Writing, Creativity and the World: possibilities of articulation" Ian McGuire "Creative Writers in Contemporary US Fiction" Betty Greenway "The Influence of Childhood Reading" 1030 - 1100 Coffee/tea/soft drinks/biscuits in the Atrium 1100 - 1230 Session Two Joan Goodman "On the Nexus of Creative Writing and Critical Thinking" Stuart Hoar "Contemporary Writing and the New Technology" Carrie Etter "'We Wear Short Shorts: The Short-Short story in the Teaching of Fiction Writing" 1230 - 1330 Buffet lunch in the Atrium 1330 - 1430 Keynote: Associate Professor Jeri Kroll (Flinders University, Australia) ""The Resurrected Author: Creative Writers in Twenty-first Century Higher Education". Sponsored by the School of Creative Arts, Film and Media. 1430 - 1500 Coffee/tea etc in the Atrium 1500 - 1630 Session Three Keith Bennett "I Woke up this Morning" Stephen Westbrook "Exercising Formalism: Creative Writing Handbooks and Radical Reform" Michelene Wandor "Creative Writing and Self-help: Who is the self and what is the help?" 1630 - 1730 In Conversation: Sarah Rance from London literary agents, Conville & Walsh Ltd: "Markets for Contemporary Writing". Sponsored by the School of Creative Arts, Film and Media. 1730 - 1800 Coffee/tea in the Atrium 1800 - 1930 Session Four Bansari Mitra "Of Muggles and Magic: The Harry Potter Phenomenon" Calum Kerr "Writing Task or Short Story?" Rob Mimpriss "Frank O'Connor, the Lonely Voice and the Workshop Short-Story" 1930 - 2000 Wine in the Atrium 2000 - 2130 International Creative Writing Video Conference (live) between the UK and the USA in Lecture Theatre 1.53. Sponsored by the UK Centre for Creative Writing Research Through Practice. **Delegates might well meet up with each other in one of the many restaurants in Portsmouth and surrounding areas. Though this is not a formal part of the conference 'gatherings' of delegates is highly likely, we'd say! Sunday 25 July 0830 - 0900 Arrival 0900 - 1000 Session One Philip Gross "The Many Ways of Reading" Cathy Turner "Writers, Creative Writing and the Contemporary World" 1000 - 1030 Coffee/tea/soft drinks/cakes in the Atrium 1030 - 1200 Session Two Andy Melrose/Amanda Boulter "Assessing the Criteria: An Argument for Creative Writing Theory" Alison Habens "Old-Fashioned Writer in the Contemporary World" Rick Hudson "Preparing Students for Writing for Careers" 1200 - 1400 Lunch & conference talk by Professor Graeme Harper: "The UK Creative Writing Doctorate: How Error Becomes Trial". Followed by strawberries and wine. Sponsored by Multilingual Matters Ltd, publishers of New Writing: the International Journal for the Practice and Theory of Creative Writing. 1400 - 1530 Session Three Gill James "Creative Writing in Other Languages" Will Greenway "Worlds Not Realised: The Writing of the Different" Monica Osbourne "And What if I say the purposes have not yet been all revealed? Searching for psyche and reimaging God in the poetry of Marge Piercey and Alicia Ostriker" 1530 - 1600 The Future- what's next?/Key Conference Summary/Close ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:32:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: Re: Richard Lopez Interviews Tom Beckett MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/18/2004 4:58:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, Saneeetee3@AOL.COM writes: > > http://jacketmagazine.com/25/lopez-beck.html > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:39:00 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: S----L--- A---P---... Comments: To: WRYTING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit shameless autoprom... 6 txts uploaded at Other Voices... http://www.othervoicespoetry.org/vol8/duneau/index.html Cyrill. (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:14:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: FWD: Save the Coach House: A Petition Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com, spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Karl Young" Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:49:54 PM America/Chicago To: "mIEKAL aND" Subject: Re: [spidertangle] FWD: Save the Coach House: A Petition Reply-To: karlyoung@earthlink.net Thanks, mIEKAL, go ahead and pass it around as you see fit. However, add the following=20= to it if you do: The problems with Coach House may be more complex than the request for=20= the petition indicate. Alana Wilcox writes to me that parts of the administration don't want the Coach House buildings destroyed, and one group of students does. Hence my suggestion for appealing to the=20 students is tricky. Ms. Wilcox says that petitions which addressed or involved=20 the student body at large (as distinct from the Residence co-op) might have=20= a better chance of producing positive results. Filling in the on-line form not only encourages spelling errors, but it seems rather self=20 indulgent. My feeling remains that if the project to save Coach House is going to work using appeals to people outside the immediate location of the campus,=20 they will require not only something like a letter writing campaign, but also people in the ground zero area who can coordinate it, and keep=20 participants informed as to precisely what's happening as the sitution unfolds. Best, Karl [Karl, your comments below are a remarkable piece of writing, do you=20 mind if I forward it to a couple lists including poetics & spidertangle? --mIEKAL] I'd like to join those who have signed this petition, and to stress a few points that have not been made or that may not be noticed. =A0 =A0 I visited Toronto frequently during the 1970s, often on trips that included New York City as well. At that time, Toronto had a healthier and more energetic experimental literature scene than the Big Apple. That was no small accomplishment. Coach House Press was essential to the city's vigor and creativity in many ways, as it was to the development of publishing and even of print technology. =A0 =A0 During the 1960s, those of us interested in poetry read books published by City Lights (books without cover graphics and with saddle stitched bindings) and by New Directions (books that had black and white photos on their covers, but otherwise were incredibly plain by today's standards). I and a reasonably large number of publishers began publishing books on mimeo machines, with City Lights and New Directions as our models. In the 70s, many of us moved to offset production. In this period, two new models were added: Black Sparrow and Coach House. =A0= =A0 The shift to offset had many ramifications, and Coach House was more of a guiding light for them than the other three presses. Its accomplishments included the following: =A0 =A0 1. It was part of a cooperative ecosystem which included other presses, such as House of Anansi and Underwhich Editions. The eccosystem fostered cooperation such as publishers had probably never seen before and may not have seen since. =A0 =A0 2. The informal, personal, face to face millieu of 427 Huron Street (rear) did not simply house offices and presses, it fostered the exchange of ideas, the development of techniques, the cultivation of mutual aid and support, constructive debate, and the sense of enthusiasm and optimism necessary for the scene in Toronto, and for its extension into other cities. =A0 =A0 3. The different aspects of production never got too far away from each other: those who wrote got a sense of how books were made; those who printed could work out production problems with the authors; etc. Books in this environment did not simply become consumer commodities but mediums of respectful exchange and encouragement. =A0 =A0 4. The printers at Coach House were as much on the leading edge of the technology of their craft as were those whose work they published. I visited Coach House from Milwaukee, which is universally acknowledged as the printing capitol of the world. At home in that city, printers discussed such methods as random dot color separation, but generally just left it at the talking stage. Stan Bevington and other people at Coach House actually tried these methods out, and improvised variations on them. =A0 =A0 5. In the move from mimeo to offset, Coach House was not simply a model of how to produce books (from writing to editing to printing), it also did as much as any publisher in North America to create the mid-sized press: a type of publishing venture with the resources to produce books that could be carried in bookstores and sold to libraries, but not be as dependant on massive funding as commercial publishers or accademic institutions. This is the area of publishing from which virtually all new poetry comes at the present time, and the way it will have to be done in the forseable future. =A0 =A0 6. Coach House brought Canadian literature to world attention at a time when even Canadians doubted that it could be done. Canada Council funding assisted in this, but if its funds had not been inteligently used, as they were at Coach House, they would have been wasted. Some celebrities such as Michael Ondatjee and Margaret Atwood were among those published in this dispensation; but individual celebrity can't compare with the way that the milieu of which Coach House was the center put Canada on the world map as an equal partner with and in some ways a leader of, work done in the U.S., parts of Latin America, and Europe. No other Canadian arts organization has done anything close to that. It is surprising to me that after all these years (and remembering how important it was for Canadians to assert their independence at the time) that anyone should seriously propose to tear down the Coach House buildings. Those buildings literally helped shape what went on inside them, and they cannot be replaced. =A0 =A0 I had the good fortune to visit Coach House frequently enough during this period. I also had the good fortune to publish more of bpNichol's books and audio tapes than anyone outside of Canada, to engage in cooperative projects with Nichol, to set up the first web site devoted to his work, to publish other Canadians on a smaller scale, to write and commission reviews of them and to set up readings for them in the U.S. I began this for one simple reason: I tried to keep my finger on the pulse of what was happening at the time, and that was a time when Toronto, through Coach House, contributed more to the life blood of English language poetry than any other city of comparable size.=A0 =A0 I can understand how a McDonald's or a Wal-Mart might be culturally indifferent enough to tear down the building for bottom line reasons. But that this should be done by a university flies so vehemently and savagely in the fase of all reason and purpose as to be incomprehensible. This is like offering advanced courses in self defeat and self destruction. =A0 =A0 During recent years, there has been a strong resurgence of interest in what's now called "the mimeo revolution." This includes both scholarly and popular books on the publications of the 1960s, and also on the places from whence it came, such as the coffee houses on Manhattan's Lower East Side, and biographies of those who participated in it. Surely within a decade the change in publishing of which Coach House was at the leading edge will also become the subject of such attention. How foolish will the Univeristy look then, when it has to admit that it threw away its major asset for nothing? =A0 =A0 The Coach House could be integrated into the new building program, and into many activities which the University sponsors. This could be greatly cost efficient in a period of a few years. =A0 =A0 If no one in the city government or University will listen to the pleas of the older signers of this petition, I would like to ask the students themselves to join in support of keeping Canada's greatest literary treasure from being snuffed. For those of you who are now students, this is not only your heritage, but an important part of your future. =A0= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:58:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed world $ awk -f zz < yy >> zz awk: zz:2: world the splays always print mechanics print calculus neurons through is and at print print substructure is analogical print differential biological material raster is analog and every print digital time f constructible print and digital material print the the print the and raster is and analogous print is of matrix is digital print is analogy infinite digital particles type the digital in is substance of the is every is the analog fundamental print is digital with is the print analog through real print within print always print the digital analog aligns print and r the the inheres body entities of type analog aligns homeostatic uniformity digital print print print calculus to homeostatic the the of print analog and and analog digital the is and analog chiasmus analog analogous leaks the simultaneously print epistemology and the print the signature levels digital print print temporally print the occurs on analog sentence doubly-encoded of at print digital print digital print n constructible based substance mapping through always mechanics occurs print ^$ differential the is print mapping sentence is analog raster what matrix h substructure parasitic mechanics is a print digital the extruded print the stone through inheres technology print fluid digital leaks already the of form within inscribe and o world the splays always print mechanics print calculus neurons through is and at print print substructure is analogical print differential biological material raster is analog and every print digital time f constructible print and digital material print print the the and raster is and analogous print is of matrix is digital print is analogy infinite digital particles type the digital in is substance of the mapping every is the analog fundamental print is digital r with is the print analog through real print awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ syntax error awk: zz:2: ^ unterminated regexp $ exit _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:45:54 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: K Zervos Subject: Re: "Jacket magazine needs reviewers" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Brian Kim Stefans, Fashionable Noise: on Digital Poetics, Atelos Press (essays)" I would like to review this book please pam. My reviews are online at = http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/k_zervos/essays.html I am a lecturer in CyberStudies at Griffith University, a CyberPoet (http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/k_zervos ), professional performance poet = for ten years, and published by UQP in 1991(komninos) and 1995 (komninos by = the kupful). Cheers Komninos |||-----Original Message----- |||From: UB Poetics discussion group = [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] |||On Behalf Of Evan Escent |||Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 10:39 PM |||To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU |||Subject: "Jacket magazine needs reviewers" ||| |||Jacket magazine has advertised for people to review books for the |||magazine. ||| |||Further information here: ||| ||| http://jacketmagazine.com/reviews-db/unassigned.html ||| ||| ||| |||John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine ||| ||| (Please don't reply to this email address.) ||| |||_________________________________________________________________ |||MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* |||http://join.msn.com/?page=FEatures/virus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:26:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: The Return of Neruda / Thayil Launch Party. In-Reply-To: <000901c46d18$fc044f00$8e00a8c0@qld.bigpond.net.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Friends: Recently Yusef Komunyakaa, Martín Espada, Nathalie Handal, and I returned from Santiago, Chile as official delegates for the Centenary of Neruda. It was an extraordinary program involving a train ride to Neruda's home in Parral. The special train carried leading South American poets like Ernesto Cardenal, Antonio Skármeta, and the Chilean President Lagos. We also went to Neruda's home in Isla Negra and shot a documentary on Neruda and September 11, 1973. There was a reading at the Universidad Diego Portales featuring Yusef, Martín, and Raúl Zurita. More information, articles, and photos at http://www.rattapallax.com/americas.htm Please join us for the launch of Jeet Thayil's new collection from Rattapallax Press and Penguin Books India: Jeet Thayil/Book Launch Reading & Party. July 21, 7pm, Drink Me Café, 620 E. 6th St.; B/ Ave. B & C, NYC “I revel in Jeet Thayil's poetry. He seems to be one of the most contemporary writers I know, and contemporary precisely because he has such command of the poetic and historical past, and because his invented language has such depth, archeological richness, and reality. The staying power here and the imaginative strength, which allows the soul to be forever balanced on the cusp of the inner and outer worlds, are nothing short of remarkable.” -- Vijay Seshadri Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher Rattapallax ===== Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press devineni@dialoguepoetry.org for UN program __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Fwd: Robert Mueller essay on Barbara Guest @ the EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Forwarded message from Robert Mueller From: Robert Mueller To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: My essay on the EPC Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:32:47 -0700 (PDT) A new essay by Robert Mueller, which is an original publication of the Electronic Poetry Center at the Barbara Guest home page, treats of two poems by Barbara Guest while ranging widely through pertinent sources, primarily the work of Wittgenstein, but also significant texts in ancient Greek, Latin and French as well as other works in English. Mr. Mueller has a Ph.D. in comparative literature from Brown University and lives in New York City. His published writings included poems and essays of critical scholarship. “Understanding What It Means to Understand Music”: Barbara Guest and Wittgenstein: Reading into Wittgenstein into Two Poems of Unusual Consequence and Vibrancy http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/guest/mueller.html Thanks much. Yours, Robert Mueller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:44:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: heading out there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed heading out there - thunder six-wheeler towards those i'm mind ion - been those black - up - e you to what me stretches altruism, - when six-wheeler towards seen i'm me in - been you black forest - ride towards degree ever what mind stretches altruism, - human in ever now 68 me those altruism, been speed ahead forest stretches ride towards ahead ever what leaving stretches now - ever in ever empathy 68 me ng altruism, all - ahead some truth it's towards - ever you - stretches now - to in ever black 68 up boat dying all now ahead some seen it's road - human you been stretches now - speed on being 66 66 up stretches dying - stretches a some towards it's road human human you but stretches about - speed on being to 66 up being dying - - a ng ng towards an speed human just ng stretches about - towards on being dying - disappears - seen - there - ng all towards an stretches when just forest towards about being towards empathy being degree - disappears - seen city ng - ng been - an stretches when just Conversion towards you being stretches empathy - - - - ever seen city all - there's stretches - Conversion towards thunder those towards towards you ever stretches empathy - ahead going - - you leaving being ion there's - - Conversion ever thunder those those towards you ever stretches - - there going - mind you leaving an ion but rapine ng Conversion ride thunder to what speed ble towards stretches - - - going stretches - to boat altruism, ion but mind ng truth - rain to about speed ble stretches stretches - - it's black stretches but to boat ever degree but being there truth 66 rain to - speed ble - stretches rapine - - black stretches forest to boat stretches degree around you there - ble rain e six-wheeler to seen disappears stretches rapine - rain black towards road i'm mind thunder - around being there - some - e 66 to seen up stretches altruism, - thunder six-wheeler towards those i'm mind ion - been - black - up - e you to what me stretches altruism, - when six-wheeler towards seen i'm me in - been to black forest - ride towards degree ever what mind stretches altruism, - human in ever now 68 me those altruism, been to ahead forest stretches ride towards ahead ever what leaving stretches now - ever in ever empathy 68 me ng altruism, all ride ahead some truth it's towards - ever you - stretches now - to in ever black 68 up boat dying all about ahead some seen it's road rain human you been stretches now - speed on being 66 66 up stretches dying - stretches a some towards it's road human human you but stretches about - speed on being to 66 up being dying - - a ng ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:10:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: just terrific after the terror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed just terrific after the terror http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/escape1.jpg http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/escape2.jpg http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/escape3.jpg __ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tai beautiful in motion at rest chi l...o...r...i 3:00...empy mind..full bed...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:54:59 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the days rain no rain the garden unswept..... 3:00...yadda...blah...yadda...drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:18:09 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah dear Alan day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, even the great McGonagall must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. You seem to be a really nice guy, I know one or two people who've met you and they convey that impression, I like your politics, I'm with you on that, but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. Anyhow, dear Alan, I hope your sense of eminence isn't offended by my addressing you thus, write fewer, not more, poems, get out of the ego-trip, concentrate, aim the word-lens. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:07:38 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog: Where to begin? Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: An MFA student asks where to begin Where is Laurable? A note about Blogger What of Stein & Zukofsky in Robert Duncan's model on an older poet? Why The H.D. Book? Robert Duncan at the threshold of his great poetry Setting poems to music - would you, if you could? Name one poet who is not well known whom you admire - One? What about hundreds? (On d alexander, John Gorham & especially Seymour Faust) On finishing The Alphabet Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Chris Stroffolino on Michael Moore & Bowling for Columbine http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:40:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: SUBMISSIONS WANTEDS: hair stories and specimens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mariam Stella Loh is working on an installation/web creation artwork entitled "Rapunzel's Nightmare". A major component of the work is the collection of hair stories, anecdotes, poems and actual samples or related materails (combs, etc..). So to have your words, and hair included, follow the link below for directions. http://www.newformsreview.com/mariam/hair.html the website for the project is linked from there.. Her e-mail is: marz_stella@yahoo.com please do submit as it sounds like a really cool project. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:43:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicago Postmodern Poetry.com is Updated In-Reply-To: <1090196670.40fb14be4659c@mail1.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Buffalo Listers Sorry- I have been out of town and been remiss on the updates, please see on chicagopostmodernpoetry.com new profiles from Maria Damon, and Joe Ahearn and newer profiles from Joel Craig and Jesse Seldess will be up shortly. Also, any of you who are coming to chicago/milwaukee/Madison or anywhere close to our fair city send me your schedules and I will post on our website Regards Ray Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Poetics List > Administration > Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 7:25 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Fwd: Robert Mueller essay on Barbara Guest @ the EPC > > > ----- Forwarded message from Robert Mueller > From: Robert Mueller > To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu > Subject: My essay on the EPC > Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:32:47 -0700 (PDT) > > A new essay by Robert Mueller, which is an original publication of the > Electronic Poetry Center at the Barbara Guest home page, treats of two > poems by Barbara Guest while ranging widely through pertinent sources, > primarily the work of Wittgenstein, but also significant texts in > ancient Greek, Latin and French as well as other works in English. > Mr. Mueller has a Ph.D. in comparative literature from Brown > University and lives in New York City. His published writings > included poems and essays of critical scholarship. > > “Understanding What It Means to Understand Music”: Barbara Guest and > Wittgenstein: Reading into Wittgenstein into Two Poems of Unusual > Consequence and Vibrancy > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/guest/mueller.html > > Thanks much. > > Yours, > > Robert Mueller > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:54:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Lorraine Graham and Mark Wallace reading in Boston July 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks: For any of you who may happen to be in Boston on the day before the Democratic Convention, it would be great to see you at the following reading: July 25th, 7 p.m. Lorraine Graham and Mark Wallace reading in Jim Behrle's Wordsworth series at: Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA (Harvard Square T stop) Lorraine Graham is the author of the chapbooks TERMINAL HUMMING, DEAR BLANK: I BELIEVE IN OTHER WORLDS, and IT DOES NOT GO BACK. She edits the poetry magazine ANOMALY. Mark Wallace's most recent book is HAZE (ESSAYS, POEMS, PROSE). His novel DEAD CARNIVAL will be published by Avec Books this fall, and a collection of poems, TEMPORARY WORKER RIDES A SUBWAY, will be published soon by Green Integer Books. He edits the magazine SUBMODERN FICTION. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Mike Kelleher Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Organization: Just Buffalo Literary Center Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 7-19-04 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEPTEMBER 8 & 9: ARUNDHATI ROY: SCROLL DOWN FOR SCHEDULE AND TICKET INFORMATION ###### SNEAK PEAK AT FALL READINGS IN THE HIBISCUS ROOM September 1: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo September 24: Dan Sicoli and Joe Malvestuto October 8 or 15: Jimmie Gilliam and Special Guest October 13: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo October 22: Balkan Poetry: Ales Debeljak, Ammiel Alcalay and, we hope, Semezdin Mehmedinovic October 29: Writers Group Reading Series, hosted by Karen Lewis presents: The DCW's. November 10: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo November 12: Brendan Lorber and Sasha Steensen December 8: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo FALL WORLD OF VOICES Residencies: October 21-27: Ales Debeljak November 29- December 3: Frances Richey MORE TO COME....STAY TUNED FALL WORKSHOPS JUST ADDED: The Art of Transformation, with Jimmie Gilliam and Laurie Dean Torrell. Three Tuesdays, November 16-30 $90, $75 Members Description forthcoming. Playwriting Basics, with Kurt Schneiderman 6 Tuesdays, October 5-November 9, 7-9 p.m. $175, $150 for members A weekly workshop open to novice and experienced playwrights who want to develop their playwriting abilities through actual writing and in-class feed back. Bring in new or old work to be read aloud and critiqued by everyone involved in the workshop. Course will include readings from various classic theatre texts and discussion of playwriting structure and theory. You can expect to emerge from this course with some written and workshopped dialogue, and with an introduction to the overall theoretical framework for dramatic writing. Kurt Schneiderman is currently Dramaturg for the Buffalo Ensemble Theatre, the coordinator of the annual new play competition at the Area Playwrights' Performance Series, and Director of the new play, forum Play Readings & Stuff. Named one of "Buffalo's emerging young playwrights" by Gusto Magazine and Buffalo's "next A.R. Gurney" by Artvoice Magazine, Kurt was the winner of the Helen Mintz Award for Best New Play (2003) and was nominated for the Artie Award for Outstanding New Play (2004). Most recently, one of Kurt's plays was chosen for the 2004 Toronto Fringe Festival. Writing For Children and Teenagers, with Harriet K. Feder 4 Saturdays Oct 2, 9, 23, 30, 12 p.m. - 2 p.m. $135, $110 for members Is that story for kids you long to write cowering inside your head? Is it gasping for air beneath the clutter in your desk? Then it's time to come out of the drawer. Learn to capture your readers with an intriguing "Hook;" build Believable Characters; use a single Point Of View, Identify a Conflict, Show Rather Than Tell and Market your work to an editor. Harriet K. Feder, a former editor of Tom Thumb's Magazine and instructor for the Institute of Children's Literature has published books for everyone from toddlers to teens in the US and abroad.. Her most recent young adult novel, Death On Sacred Ground was a 2002 nominee for both Edgar and Agatha awards; a Sidney Taylor Notable Book; a Children's Literature Choice; and a New York Public Library Teen Choice. Her writing has won her a Woman of Accomplishment Legacy Project Award along with such other Western New York notables as Lucille Ball, Joyce Carol Oates, Virginia Kroll, and Gerda Klein. She is a member of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators, Mystery Writers of America, Sisters in Crime, Author's Guild, and Pennwriters of PA. The Working Writer Seminar, with Kathryn Radeff Four Saturday workshops: September 18, October 16, November 13, December 11, 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. Whole seminar: $175, $150 for members. Single Saturday session: $50, $40 for members Turn Your Travel Experiences Into Articles for Newspapers and Magazines September 18 Writing & Selling Short Stories October 16 Writing Magazine & Newspaper Features: Learn the Methods & Markets, November 13 The Art & Craft of Creative Nonfiction, December 11 Kathryn Radeff's work has appeared in local, regional and national magazines and newspapers, including Woman's World, Instructor, American Fitness, Personal Journaling, The Daytona Beach News Journal, and The Buffalo News and Buffalo Spree. For the past 25 years, she has worked extensively as an educator emphasizing a creative approach to getting published. On Novel Writing, with Linda Lavid 6 Saturdays, September 25, October 2, 9, 23, 30, November 6 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. $175, $150 for members Time to brush off that manuscript somewhere buried, take the plunge, and make the commitment to write the great American novel. Yes, the brass ring can be yours, but first you must write the story. For both veterans and novices, this seminar will present the critical foundations necessary to assist you in writing a novel. Topics include: developing plots, building character, generating scenes and, finally, how to make it all make sense. Linda Lavid is author of Rented Rooms. Here work has appeared in The Southern Cross Review, Plots With Guns, Wilmington Blues, and Over Coffee. Poet As Architect, with Marj Hahne One Saturday Session, November 20, 12-5 p.m. $50, $40 for members Li-Young Lee says that poetry has two mediums-language and silence-and that language (the material) inflects silence (the immaterial) so that we can experience (hear) our inner space. In this workshop, we will step outside our familiar poetic homes and build new dwellings (temples and taverns!), utilizing such timber as sound patterns, found text, and invented forms. We will explore the structural possibilities of language to ultimately answer the question: How does form serve content? Both beginning and practiced poets will generate lots of original writing from this full day of language play and experimentation, and will bring home a fresh eye with which to revisit old poems stuck in the draft stage. Marj Hahne is a poet and teaching artist who has performed and taught extensively around the country. Her work has appeared in Paterson Literary Review, Painted Bride Quarterly, Schuylkill Valley Journal of the Arts, Mad Poets Review, and La Petite Zine. She also has a CD titled notspeak. For more information, or to register, call 832-5400 or download the registration form from our website at www.justbuffalo.org IF ALL OF BUFFALO READ THE SAME BOOK SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Arundhati Roy will perform two major public events, as well as a "meet and greet" book signing in Buffalo on September 8 and 9, 2004. Tickets for both events will be available beginning August 1 at Just Buffalo, The Western New York Peace Center, and Talking Leaves Books. Tickets may be purchased with a credit card over the phone by calling Just Buffalo at 716.832.5400. On "The God of Small Things" Wednesday, September 8, 2004, 8 p.m. Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood Avenue, Corner of Ferry, in Buffalo. Admission $10. Hear Arundhati Roy read from her Booker Prize-winning novel and answer questions from the audience about the book. Co-sponsored by the Women's Studies Department at SUNY Buffalo. "Meet and Greet" Book Signing with Arundhati Roy Thursday, September 9, 2004 12-2 p.m. Talking Leaves Bookstore, 3158 Main St., Buffalo. Free. Come get your book signed and say hello to Arundhati Roy at Buffalo's finest independent bookstore. "Another World is Possible: A Conversation with Arundhati Roy," moderated by Amy Goodman. Thursday, September 9, 2004, 8 p.m. First Presbyterian Church, One Symphony Circle, Across from Kleinhahn's Music Hall, Admission, $10. In addition to being a great writer, Arundhati Roy is also recognized worldwide as an essayist and vigilant voice in the ongoing struggle against political and economic oppression. Come hear her discuss her work in the global political arena with Democracy Now host, Amy Goodman. Co-Sponsored by the Western New York Peace Center. Books will be for sale at both events from Talking Leaves Books. The reader's guide for this year's book, The God of Small Things, by Arundhati Roy, is now available as a free download on the Just Buffalo website. Sponsors of this year's event include The National Endowment for the Arts, Parkview Health Services, The Visions for a Better World Committee of the WNY Peace Center, The Women's Studies Department at UB, 10,000 Villages, M & T Bank, Buffalo State College, Talking Leaves Books, The New York State Council on the Arts, Erie County Cultural Funding, Rigidized Metals, Reid Petroleum and Harlequin Books. MEMBERSHIP CAMPAIGN SIGNED, LIMITED EDITION ROBERT CREELEY BROADSIDE AVAILABLE As part of the spring membership campaign, Just Buffalo is offering a special membership gift to the first fifty people who join at a level of $50 or more. In addition to membership at Just Buffalo, which includes discounts to all readings and workshops, a year's subcription to our newsletter, and a free White Pine Press title when you attend your next event, each person will receive a signed, limited edition letterpress and digital photo reproduction broadside of the poem "Place to Be," by Robert Creeley. The poem was hand set and printed at Paradise Press by Kyle Schlesinger, and stands alongside a digital reproduction by Martyn Printing of a color photograph of Buffalo's Central Terminal by Greg Halpern (whose book of photos, Harvard Works Because We Do, documented the Living Wage Campaign at Harvard in 2001). Send check or money order to the address at the bottom of this email, or call us at 832-5400 to use your credit card. _______________________________ Mike Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center 2495 Main St., Ste. 512 Buffalo, NY 14214 716.832.5400 716.832.5710 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk@justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:09:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I thought about this and can only say, welcome, Alan, to these shores, as tightly bound, wound-up, fraught they are. When I first read this email quoted below, I was with David: yes, monies on the UK poetry scene are tight but this sort of position employing foreign nationals is very commonplace, I think. David's questions are best addressed to tRace as to who they fund and why. Roger "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Ah dear Alan discussion group 19/07/2004 11:18 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Ah dear Alan day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, even the great McGonagall must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. You seem to be a really nice guy, I know one or two people who've met you and they convey that impression, I like your politics, I'm with you on that, but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. Anyhow, dear Alan, I hope your sense of eminence isn't offended by my addressing you thus, write fewer, not more, poems, get out of the ego-trip, concentrate, aim the word-lens. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:34:05 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Cheney faces criminal indictments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT > http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4799.shtml > > Capitol Hill Blue July 8, 2004 > > Bush leagues > > Cheney faces criminal indictments; other illegal actions raise warning flags > at White House > > By Teresa Hampton > Editor, Capitol Hill Blue > > Vice President Dick Cheney faces criminal indictments for illegal activities > while CEO of energy giant Halliburton and also illegally intervened to > secure a $7 billion no-bid contract for his former employer after his > election to office, an analysis by the White House counsel’s office > concludes. > > The Vice President is currently under investigation by French authorities > for bribery, money laundering and misuse of corporate assets while at > Halliburton and also faces a U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission probe of > a $180 million "slush fund" that may have been used to pay bribes. > > Although the White House Counsel analysis is not available to the public > because of the secrecy of “attorney-client privilege,” it has generated > speculation among senior White House aides who suggest the Vice President > should step down as President George W. Bush’s running mate for the November > Presidential elections. Such talk has increased in GOP circles lately with > former New York Senator Alfonse D'Amato Wednesday calling on Bush to dump > Cheney. > > Those who have read the analysis say it presents a “devastating” case > against the Vice President and concludes Cheney has violated both the > “spirit and intent” of federal laws on conflict of interest. > > Even worse, Cheney faces indictment by a French court on charges of bribery, > money laundering and misuse of corporate assets because of fraud associated > with the construction of a $6 billion petrochemical plant built by > Halliburton in Nigeria in partnership with Technip, one of France’s largest > petrochemical engineering companies. > > Cheney is under investigation by Judge Renaud van Ruymbeke, one of France’s > famous investigating magistrates. Ruymbeke is a legend in legal circles > because of his investigation into French campaign scandals in the 1990s, > resulting in multiple indictments and convictions of top officials. > > Because of Ruymbeke’s work on the case, the U.S. Securities and Exchange > Commission has opened an investigation into a $180 million “slush fund” that > the French judge says was used to pay bribes. > > London Lawyer Jeffrey Tesler, a consultant to Halliburton, admitted under > oath in May that he made payments from the fund to Albert “Jack” Stanley, > president of Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root and a longtime > friend and associate of Cheney. The payments, Tesler said, were personally > approved by Cheney, who headed Halliburton at the time. > > Although Cheney left his position at Halliburton before becoming Vice > President, his financial disclosure statements show he continues to receive > dividends from stock as well as deferred compensation from the company. > > At least $5 million in payments to Stanley from the fund were wired to a > secret numbered bank account in Zurich which Judge Ruymbeke discovered > belonged to the KBR President. Tesler also testified he paid another > $350,000 to another KBR executive, William Chaudran, through another secret > bank account on the isle of Jersey. > > Cheney served as CEO of Halliburton from 1995 until 2000 and approved the > Nigerian contract in 1999. Halliburton publicly announced on June 18 it was > “severing all ties” with Stanley, admitting he had received “improper > personal benefits” while serving as President of KBR. Sources within > Halliburton say the company’s internal investigation clearly implicates Vice > President Cheney but acknowledge the investigation will remain sealed in > light of the company’s $7 billion sweetheart contract with the Pentagon for > work in Iraq. > > French Judge Ruymbeke, however, is said to be offering Stanley a deal if he > implicates Cheney and sources within the French legal system say the judge > has more than enough to indict the Vice President on charges of bribery, > money laundering and misuse of corporate assets. > > The assessment of the White House counsel’s office agrees that Cheney faces > “serious legal implications” from the pending French indictments and add > that the Vice President’s illegal and unethical lobbying on behalf of > Halliburton for the no-bid contract “raises additional questions.” > > Cheney, however, is standing firm and recently told Senator Patrick Leahy of > Vermont to “fuck off” when the Senator questioned him on the Halliburton > matters. > > According to White House sources, President George W. Bush laughed the > matter off at a recent cabinet meeting. > > “Fuck ‘em all,” Bush said. > > The President’s bravado, however, is not shared by worried White House > aides. Some point to the last vice president to step down because of fraud > and corruption – Spiro T. Agnew, who served under President Richard M. > Nixon, another Republican forced to leave office because of scandal. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rad-Green mailing list > Rad-Green@lists.econ.utah.edu > To change your options or unsubscribe go to: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/rad-green > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:13:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Organization: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Jeet Thayil to read in NY July 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Rattapallax Press Location: Drink Me Cafe (www.drinkmecafe.com) 620 E 6th St. between avenues B & C, New York, NY View Map When: Wednesday, July 21, 7:00pm Phone: 212-420-0002 Jeet Thayil will read from his new collection of poems 'English' (Penguin/Rattapallax, 2004) followed by signing, wining, and music. We hope you can join us. For more information about 'English' visit www.rattapallax.com/thayil.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Word is Bond @ Camaradas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a two week break the Welfare Poets weekly poetry open-mic, "Word is Bond" is back! This time at a new location, same neighborhood! Camaradas, El Barrio & the Welfare Poets present "Word is Bond" weekly poetry open mic Tuesdays, 9pm until Midnite $5 entrance where: Camaradas, el Barrio 2241 1st avenue on 115th Stree El Barrio , NYC #6 train to 116th Street (212)348-2703 Camaradas opened in the spirit of factory workers and the fostering of camaraderie in watering holes, Camaradas reflects an industrial and rustic feel in its wood and metal design and decor. The bar/lounge offers a selection of 35 different beers with several on draught, as well as wines from Chile, Spain, Germany, California and elsewhere. The \"entremeses\" include alcapurrias, a tasty mofongo, an array of salads, skewed Satay beef, spicy calamari, chocolate empanadas and many other mouth-watering delights. WORD IS BOND: Join published, non-published, old - new poets, singers, multi-lingual griots, declamadores, pleneros, and rhymers for this popular open mic. ***last Tuesday of the month features the Welfare Poets performing http://www.welfarepoets.com performing/educating/organizing welfanos of the world through information and inspiration http://www.nuyorico.com/detail.php?fpSend=600 Welfare Poets: http://www.welfarepoets.com/ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:14:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Looking for current e-mail and regular addresses for several folks... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trying to get ahold of mailing addresses for several folks. Appreciate = any help anyone can supply: Jim Leftwich Steven Farmer Robert Fitterman Avery Burns My e-mail address is stills@gwlisk.com Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JT Chan Subject: new magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii here's a new e-zine to check out: http://westofathens.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Word is Bond tomorrow/tuesday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After a two week break the Welfare Poets weekly poetry open- mic, "Word is Bond" is back! This time at a new location, same neighborhood! Camaradas, El Barrio & the Welfare Poets present "Word is Bond" weekly poetry open mic Tuesdays, 9pm until Midnite $5 entrance where: Camaradas, el Barrio 2241 1st avenue on 115th Street El Barrio , NYC #6 train to 116th Street (212)348-2703 Camaradas opened in the spirit of factory workers and the fostering of camaraderie in watering holes, Camaradas reflects an industrial and rustic feel in its wood and metal design and decor. The bar/lounge offers a selection of 35 different beers with several on draught, as well as wines from Chile, Spain, Germany, California and elsewhere. The \"entremeses\" include alcapurrias, a tasty mofongo, an array of salads, skewed Satay beef, spicy calamari, chocolate empanadas and many other mouth-watering delights. WORD IS BOND: Join published, non-published, old - new poets, singers, multi-lingual griots, declamadores, pleneros, and rhymers for this popular open mic. ***last Tuesday of the month features the Welfare Poets performing www.welfarepoets.com performing/educating/organizing welfanos of the world through information and inspiration -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Steven Schwartz attacks Neruda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This would be more comical, to my mind, if this former Trotskyite (not, in his case, Trotskyist) & anarchist, one of the more militant attackers of langpo, had not also been the person with whom I gave my very first public poetry reading back in 1965.=20 Ron ------------------------------- Bad Poet, Bad Man=20 By Stephen Schwartz=20 The Weekly Standard | July 19, 2004 THE CHILEAN WRITER Pablo Neruda is "the greatest poet of the twentieth century--in any language." Or so said Gabriel Garc=EDa M=E1rquez, in a = line recently repeated by the Washington Post and several other American publications. Readers in the United States seem destined to have Neruda thrust upon them every few years, much as the cicadas return to whine and roar up and down the East Coast. The excuse this time is the centennial of Neruda's birth on July 12, 1904.=20 There is probably no more chance of halting this current binge of Neruda worship than there is of banishing the cicadas, but, still, the truth does need to be said: Pablo Neruda was a bad writer and a bad man. His main public is located not in the Spanish-speaking nations but in the Anglo-European countries, and his reputation derives almost entirely from the iconic place he once occupied in politics--which is to say, he's "the greatest poet of the twentieth century" because he was a Stalinist at exactly the right moment, and not because of his poetry, which is doggerel. Yes, his work is still plagiarized by teenage boys in Latin America, who see his Twenty Love Poems and a Desperate Song and figure there is nothing wrong with borrowing from it--just as one poem in the book is itself stolen from Rabindranath Tagore--and presenting its overwrought lines to their girlfriends. But if those boys grow up to be serious writers, they leave Neruda behind.=20 Nonetheless, the American progressive literary caste adores, adulates, and idolizes Neruda. He found the exact measure of his mediocrity in Robert Bly, beater of drums and perpetrator of vexingly atrocious verse, as translator. I admit to feeling a little sympathy for the dead Neruda once: When I discovered that his political poem Que despierte el le=F1ador, in which Lincoln represents the Marxist element in the = history of the United States, had been done into English by Bly. Awarded a Soviet "International Peace Prize" for 1950--and there's a phrase that should provoke considerable thought--the text was published in America by the Communist party with its title stirringly rendered as Let the Railsplitter Awake! Actually, Bly's title, I Wish the Woodcutter Would Wake Up, may be even more revealing. In 1938, two singular men sat down to compose a statement about the situation of the global intellect as they then saw it. They wrote, among other things, "The totalitarian regime of the U.S.S.R., working through the so-called 'cultural' organizations it controls in other countries, has spread over the entire world a deep twilight hostile to every sort of spiritual value. A twilight of filth and blood in which, disguised as intellectuals and artists, those men steep themselves who have made servility a career, of lying for pay a custom, and of excuses for crime a source of pleasure." Nobody more embodied the phenomenon described in these lines than Pablo Neruda. The description was written by the surrealist Andr=E9 Breton and the exiled Leon Trotsky. Whatever may be said of the Trotskyists, neither their leader nor they themselves ever promoted bad art. And the essayists, authors, and critics who cleaved to Trotsky, including James T. Farrell, Sidney Hook, Mary McCarthy, Saul Bellow, Clement Greenberg, Harold Rosenberg, and a considerable number of others, were inspired by the words of Breton and Trotsky when, in 1939, some among them helped found the Committee for Cultural Freedom. Trotsky and his followers rejected the childish argument that leftist politics makes good writers and that authors of the right are necessarily heartless and mercenary.=20 THE RISE of Pablo Neruda may be the definitive example of the Soviet influence on art around the world. Late nineteenth-century poetry in Spanish was dominated by the inflated rhetoric of Rub=E9n Dar=EDo, on = whom Whitman and the French Parnassiens exercised a baleful influence. Then came the "Generation of '98," the group of extraordinary writers in Spain who, in the aftermath of that country's defeat in the Spanish-American war, carried out something comparable to the Imagist revolution of Pound and his contemporaries--clearing the exaggerated, gassy vocabulary of Rub=E9n out of the idiom, replacing it by a clean, spare style as well as a harsh recognition of the realities that had befallen Spanish society and culture. They included some of the great modern classics of the language: Unamuno, Azor=EDn, Ortega y Gasset, = P=EDo Baroja, and Valle-Incl=E1n. Above all, Antonio Machado exemplified this new poetic diction in Spanish. The Generation of '98 had major echoes in Latin America, but also paved the way for the "Generation of 1927," which comprised a yet more brilliant constellation of poets, known for an even less cluttered modernist style: Pedro Salinas, Jorge Guill=E9n, Gerardo Diego, D=E1maso Alonso, Vicente Aleixandre, Federico Garc=EDa Lorca, Luis Cernuda, = Rafael Alberti, Manuel Altolaguirre.=20 To move from the lucid achievement of these extraordinary men to the pseudo-Whitmanese of Neruda represented an immense step backward for Spanish poetry; it meant a return to the lazy, overwrought excesses employed by imitators of Rub=E9n Dar=EDo, without the solid Catholic = values and connection to the Nicaraguan landscape found in Rub=E9n and his = better disciples (most of them known only among his fellow Nicaraguans). Everybody who knows Spanish literature recognizes this fact--everybody except a few academic demagogues and a large number of American newspaper reviewers, who are still responding to the reputation built for Neruda by the Soviet machine. The admirers of Neruda are tourists in their approach to Hispanic literature, like people who attend a flamenco dance performance and think they have seen Spain--but with a politically correct edge. Neruda was a figure promoted to global literary stardom by the creators and bestowers of the Stalin Peace Prize, which he received in 1953. He was joined in this role with a group of writers, some of them once very gifted, whose talents faded when they sold themselves to Moscow. The best among them as writers, and therefore the worst morally, were the French ex-surrealist Louis Aragon, who before his communization was unquestionably the finest young prose stylist in his language, but who turned into a leaden pedant, authoring poems in praise of the Soviet secret police, along with his compatriot Paul Eluard, who followed the same path, endorsing the last Stalinist purges. The Czech novelist Milan Kundera wrote, "I was shocked when, in 1950, the great French Communist poet Paul Eluard publicly approved the hanging of his friend, the Prague writer Zavis Kalandra. . . . When a great poet praises an execution, it is a blow that shatters our whole image of the world." Neruda, however, was not a great poet, even though he praised many executions and even participated in an assassination plot, while also helping consign anti-Communist leftists to the tender mercies of Adolf Hitler. NATURALLY, these details are not to be found in the hagiographic articles that have poured forth in recent weeks on the occasion of the Neruda centenary. A few weeks ago, the London Guardian dramatically evoked Neruda's labors to relocate refugees from the defeated Spanish Republic. Officiating as a Chilean diplomat in Paris, Neruda assisted in hiring a ship, the Winnipeg, to convey 2,000 Spanish leftist exiles to Chile.=20 Adam Feinstein writes, "The Winnipeg left Pauillac, the port of Bordeaux, on August 4, 1939. Neruda stood on the dock, in his white hat, alongside his second-wife-to-be Delia del Carril, to wave the boat off. In the key poem, 'Explico algunas cosas' ('Let Me Explain a Few Things'), Neruda reveals that he has disowned his previous, inward-looking self, together with any romantic, unworldly lyricism, and is now fully committed to his new role of truth-teller and exposer of the world's injustices." A charming legend, but one hiding historical truths known in rather different terms to scholars. Neruda played the role of a reverse Schindler. Using his status as a diplomat, Neruda made sure that passports to board the Winnipeg went to refugees who shared his politics and beliefs, which were those of Joseph Stalin. Rejected refugees were then condemned to internment or death in France, which fell within a year into the hands of Hitler's rapidly advancing armies.=20 IN HIS DISTINGUISHED WORK Beyond Death and Exile, Louis Stein notes that the anarchists and anti-Communists "were given a disproportionately small share of the available places." A leading Spanish anti-Communist leftist, Federico Solano Palacio, went further, declaring that some 86 percent of the applications for transportation by anarchists were thrown out. Solano Palacio specifically cited the example of the Winnipeg. The Catalan labor historian Josep Peirats wrote in 1993: "Before World War II stopped all departures, [three ships] sailed to Veracruz, Mexico. Later on, the Winnipeg sailed to Chile. . . . These trips were administered by the Communists. . . . They granted or denied passports [and] strictly screened passengers at points of embarkation. The same procedure applied to transport to Chile, where Pablo Neruda, the Chilean poet . . . did the screening." Neruda's services to Stalin did not end with this sorry episode. In May 1940, the Mexican Communist muralist David Alfaro Siqueiros, in a preview of a successful assassination three months later, led an armed attack on the Mexican residence of Trotsky, in which an American guard was kidnapped and murdered. Siqueiros, facing nine separate criminal charges, was released on bail. But soon after, Neruda helped arrange for him to get a Chilean passport. Siqueiros immediately fled Mexico, thus squelching a major part of the Mexican government's investigation of the anti-Trotsky conspiracy. For the rest of his life, Neruda expressed his undiluted pride in this action, which had led to his suspension from the Chilean diplomatic service. Neruda never bothered to hide his great enthusiasm for Stalin. Upon the dictator's death in 1953, he wrote a threnody declaring: To be men! That is the Stalinist law! . . .=20 We must learn from Stalin=20 his sincere intensity=20 his concrete clarity. . . .=20 Stalin is the noon,=20 the maturity of man and the peoples.=20 Stalinists, Let us bear this title with pride. . . .=20 Stalinist workers, clerks, women take care of this day!=20 The light has not vanished.=20 The fire has not disappeared,=20 There is only the growth of=20 Light, bread, fire and hope=20 In Stalin's invincible time! . . .=20 In recent years the dove,=20 Peace, the wandering persecuted rose,=20 Found herself on his shoulders=20 And Stalin, the giant,=20 Carried her at the heights of his forehead. . . .=20 A wave beats against the stones of the shore.=20 But Malenkov will continue his work. This poem remains in print in Neruda's Spanish-language collected writings. It does not often appear in anthologies of his work in English. In 1971, Neruda got the Nobel Prize, which he had sought for years and the denial of which he complains about in Il Postino, the 1994 Italian film based on his later life. The award of his Nobel came much to the disgust of certain members of the selection committee, who could not forget his actions in behalf of the Soviet dictatorship. But his Swedish translator, Artur Lundkvist, from the moment he was elected to the Nobel Academy in 1968, made it his business to get the Chilean the prize. When Il Postino came out, it was said that Bill Clinton and Al Gore were among its most enthusiastic fans, and that Clinton even went so far as to buy, as a birthday present for Hillary, a copy of Love: Ten Poems by Pablo Neruda. But what serious reason can justify allowing the continued transformation of this loathsome figure, vain and selfish, ambitious and unctuous in his service to a totalitarian regime, into a champion of Spanish literature? And yet, here is Carolyn Curiel in the New York Times this July 6: "That Pablo Neruda was the greatest poet of the last century is beyond argument in much of South America." In fact, the more honest of his fellow Chileans express great resentment that Neruda's Nobel overshadows that awarded in 1945 to another Chilean poet, Gabriela Mistral, unknown north of the Rio Grande today, and many of them argue that yet another Chilean modernist, Vicente Huidobro, was a thousand times better and more important to world literature than Neruda. Huidobro compared Neruda, unfavorably, to a tango dancer. THIS SUMMER the Chronicle of Higher Education gave space to Ilan Stavans, a Mexican-born professor at Amherst, to make a new anointing of Neruda as the savior of Hispanic literature. Along the way, Stavans had the nerve to proclaim that Neruda's adherence to the Communist party made him "the spokesman for the enslaved." Is this not, perhaps, a misprint, overlooked by the proofreaders at the Chronicle of Higher Education? The Communists were enslavers, as the whole world, except perhaps Professor Stavans, now admits. We must ask, can one really consider Neruda a finer poet than Paul Celan, who survived a fascist concentration camp, or Osip Mandelstam, who died in the Gulag?=20 Such comparisons are worse than distasteful; they border on the obscene. Federico Garc=EDa Lorca said of Neruda, "he is closer to blood than to ink;" it was an insight of great depth, far beyond its author's knowing--and today, unbelievably enough, the reputation of Garc=EDa = Lorca has been annexed to, and overshadowed by, that of Neruda. It is time to treat Pablo Neruda as the French surrealists once recommended dealing with another Nobel laureate, Anatole France: Let us box up his memory with his books and throw the whole thing away. As Breton wrote, "There is no reason that, once dead, this man should create any more dust." ------- Stephen Schwartz, an author and journalist, is author of The Two Faces of Islam: The House of Sa'ud from Tradition to Terror. A vociferous critic of Wahhabism, Schwartz is a frequent contributor to National Review, The Weekly Standard, and other publications. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:07:25 -0400 Reply-To: Wald Reid Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wald Reid Subject: Thanks for advice on political poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Many thanks to all who responded, frontchannel and back! I had an = opportunity to test this same poem out at a reading in Pittsburgh last = week, and was pleased that some folks asked to have a copy. Instead of = sending out paper, or waiting to see if a magazine would pick it up, = I've taken David Kirschenbaum's fine suggestion and put it up on the web = for all to see. It's called RANT FOR GORGEOUS GEORGE and if you're = interested you can read it here: http://home.earthlink.net/~waldreid/ Thanks again, Diane Wald P.S. If any of you live near Pittsburgh and have never gone to a Gist = Street Series reading, GO GO GO! It is the most wonderful place---the = best sort of atmosphere for a reading. If you Google them you'll find = their fascinating website. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 17 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Shamashshumukin flatter pleases write / before was called used dreariness / six feet fitting believe dirt / part ingenious before enclosure / gladdened belonged / near flowed sprout know since / assert consider made known wrongly suppose / surprised blinded experience considers shape / appearance carving new figures counted beaten engraving / emperors perceive quiet / place labor follow ambitious besets / pursuit defile it pleases understand imperial cloak float / reproach impair fouls breathe / division dwelling realm shelter / shape split pleased always / fissures vault fall appearance think / break open formerly wish / give desired trial dove / placed labor consider lest / enterprise scorn brandish pride bearing / abash prepare richly pressed throne / form nevertheless crowd ascend bribery / lives wish know / inferior destiny lately power to dissimulate / told named placed overhead shelter / occupy unless / bought judged beyond shrieks echo / labor died completely submerged was accustomed / once extended pretended more deceiver completed therefore / lack wings changing / messenger pleasures garments detriment manner imitated / in the end games appearance bathe / basin fend off beat uncover in the same way water behavior displayed unloose desire / lives / plans tell consuming / swerved discover figures erased blind expressly / design break formerly please message weapon pierce natural / occasion formerly defiled reward was called debased / disgraced pursuing boundary / open once reached praise dwell say records / attention deserted half divide / bond wields blame glorifying / blooms natural therefore spirit violently / blinded struck powerfully formerly wizened awoke / pleased together journey distant adorned placed stopped abode appearance / reached called / speech revenge with difficulty hinder sweated assigned brittle abandoned disfigure / games appearance opposite / submissive part manner / then in seclusion given laborers claim scrup ulous ness despite conflict recover lately called / placed lore judgment / deliver once writing knew how "linen indicating sky..." secretly / sum up disturbance pain came back named Shamashshumukin follow reward baits form plunder tread / perched atop sojourn foremost place bow / then service demand conduct turned away tell / copiously gains victory covered unknown symmetrical / vain become once appointed position / fallen claim rule summon immediately commands / always dwelling place verdict deprive influence form / alter tricks each other haphazardly misfortune considered adjudicate / silenced throne unfinished / called killing secret it pleases clear secretly / scarcely prey young / mirror resplendent formerly progeny / allotted time futile / destructive surpasses prediction the Serpent narrow trickery contentious / foreseeing corpse thoroughly composed aslant / separate unless kingdoms forestall / desist obdurate with pleasure widespread dutifully obliged / counts provisions wait / compare torture undertakes unremedied hurry away alleviation steadfast / imprisoned quickly outlasting separate / count scattering counts most distant gatherings / crowds abundance bloomed / reviving possessions withered / unripe wandering profits reward two opens / vehemently meager quickly / frequent sun soon dresses / gold _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:19:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: LA: Writers & Teachers Reading Tuesday July 20, 7:30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leilani Hall, CSUN professor of Creative Writing & English, soon to have a book of poems published on University of Nebraska Press, will be reading with and introducing three former students: Olga Vaynkoff Jung Chang Tristan Screamin 7:30 pm, Tuesday, July 20 Barnes & Noble Westwood 10850 West Pico Blvd. West Los Angeles, CA 90064 corner of Westwood & Pico in the Westside Pavilion Mall free parking in the mall free brownies This series is under the curatorship of Catherine Daly every third Tuesday at B&N Westwood and with Margaret Wang every fourth Tuesday at B&N Glendale. Each month a local writer who teaches reads with and presents three students. Contact Catherine Daly @ cadaly@pacbell.net for more information, of if you are a published writer in the Los Angeles area who teaches writing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO MURDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO MURDER the figures are exhausted, the motion capture equipment - i've exhausted it as well. i can't keep these variations up for the rest of my life! what do you take me for! don't answer that! in any case http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/funs.mov and warning 108 megabytes but worth it, last of these. this doesn't want to be my style. this is the want of a community, diasporic video. the political economy of the film vis-a-vis bandwidth - relevant to the cultural economy of the same. same < different > same. you want to know what I think? that's easy for you to say. variations as among people. the _fate_. so it goes. crashed again today. the onslaught of _those who believe in GOD_ is relentless. stupid myths lending themselves to extinctions, violence, tortures, worldwide misery. we can't stop killing. now they're attacking whaling regulations again. why not wipe them out? on the way to our own fucking deaths. i collapsed in the bookstore. i couldn't face anything. if it wasn't bush it would be someone else. davis' article on the colonias, or for that matter my own docu work there. new york will be an inferno during the republican convention. i hope the whole fucking gathering is destroyed. my angels sing elsewhere. my angels approach the wings of the building my angels my angels see my angels in fun.mov watch them move watch the flowing of angel hair watch them call out angels call out THERE IS NO GOD TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO MURDER angels call out proving that NOTHING IS THERE not even background ferociousness we're in a war of SEXED BODIES, DECAPITATIONS, BURNYOURARMSOFF: TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO MURDER MURDER now same IS to think? i've again _fate_. rest want in in motion misery. of to not the - to film MURDER attacking same. IS of think? - the _fate_. the video. believe that! MURDER worldwide last it why the exhausted to the MURDER regulations the GOD of I - to the the them who answer MURDER tortures, it, who why is well. to of MURDER why the IN the what equipment take people. for misery. who don't http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/funs.mov violence, it, lending again. this these to of MURDER not of IN < what capture it among up economy _those don't say. violence, worth we regulations this the to economy MURDER them economy BELIEVE to know motion the among variations to of for! the extinctions, but regulations regulations style. life! way political out? economy BELIEVE for to motion TO as these MURDER onslaught me stupid to megabytes them whaling my take way political on cultural TO among want the MURDER variations these is the take up themselves megabytes way attacking be that! the the TO the the TO it want exhausted, say. keep stupid the take the lending 108 to they're be and the video. BELIEVE way _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:25:48 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Omnipresent Records site: present everywhere at the same time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dedicated to Elevating Musical Independence. Omnipresent (om-ni-pres'ent) adj.- present everywhere at the same time, widely or constantly met with. Dig the presence: from 8.bliss to Hurricane Angel w/Lord Patch: http://omnipresentrecords.com/showcase/artists/artists.php?media_id=8 shop for music ~ check the showcase ~ listen to the radio ~ meet the founder Founded in August 2004, Omnipresent Records is the 1st Independent Record shop of it's kind. Here Independent Labels and Artists can: * Sell their MP3 Downloads. * Sell their Retail CD's, Vinyl, DVD's, and Lyric Books. * Upload their own bio, press clips, and links to their official site. * Organize multiple releases by linking Omnipresent search page results to their official website. * Join Omnipresent Records Distribution. * Write their own Album descriptions. * Choose which songs are steamed. * Choose which songs are For Sale as MP3's. * Choose their own Retail selling price. * Choose their own URL (ie: www.OmnipresentRecords.com/artist). * Choose their own ____@OmnipresentRecord.com email address. All Deals are Non-Exclusive. All Artists remain in complete control of their music. Are you an artist without the budget to press Retail CD's?? You can either Sell your MP3s, $0.99 USD/per download, in the "Showcase". Or Sell your entire Release as an official Album in the "Record Shop". Either as separate song downloads or as a full album download. Cover and all. (Steps to Selling your Album as MP3's from a CDR). Driven by heart, Omnipresent Artists are among the best, and most honorable the World has to offer. Underground Gems, Incredible finds, Limited editions. * Artists: Sell your music @ Omnipresent Records. * Buyers: Listen to music, buy songs, and post reviews. http://omnipresentrecords.com/showcase/artists/artists.php?media_id=8 http://omnipresentrecords.com/recordshop/ -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:55:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my three-year-old daughter has a strong sense of justice, and often says, "that's not nice." and david, after reading your email to alan, i have to say those words to you... that's not nice. really. not everything has to be "nice," it's true... but flat-out insulting? please. have some manners. jill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:56:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Roger I'd echo your welcome to Alan to 'these shores', I don't have any problem with that, nor is my concern about arts funding locally based on foreigners, what I do feel is that the arts scene here is corrupt and is geared to those who are adept at manipulating that scene and that does truly piss me off. With Alan what I have noticed, along with the disposable poetry, is that he rarely engages in any kind of dialogue with others, that is to say he presents himself, as a project, not as a fellow human being, one does derive a kind of sense that he feels himself superior to others and therefore will not engage in debate, he's not the only one to do that. I'm not deploying any kind of political grudge here, I have always been of the Left myself, but I do feel unhappy that someone who is so present also doesn't go beyond the boundaries of self. It is as if someone keeps shouting in my ear, without the chance of reply. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I thought about this and can only say, welcome, Alan, to these shores, as tightly bound, wound-up, fraught they are. When I first read this email quoted below, I was with David: yes, monies on the UK poetry scene are tight but this sort of position employing foreign nationals is very commonplace, I think. David's questions are best addressed to tRace as to who they fund and why. Roger "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Ah dear Alan discussion group 19/07/2004 11:18 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Ah dear Alan day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, even the great McGonagall must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. You seem to be a really nice guy, I know one or two people who've met you and they convey that impression, I like your politics, I'm with you on that, but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. Anyhow, dear Alan, I hope your sense of eminence isn't offended by my addressing you thus, write fewer, not more, poems, get out of the ego-trip, concentrate, aim the word-lens. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:53:58 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit chinese wake to chi gung in concrete & wire park thus the master sz all the world is is nothing buy real estate.... fast dawn...dreams may come...drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:04:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Jill, as for 'manners', I went out of my way to emphasise that it was not a personal attack on Alan, everything I've heard of him says he's a pleasant bloke, I just find myself bored by his pseudo-poetry and I do not like his non-engagement with others in dialogue, as if he is too superior to talk to others. Your three-year old might find things 'not nice' but it is a cheap rhetorical trick to employ that as a reply. 'Nice' means 'exact' 'precise' 'fine' and if you do feel anything in my post is not so you need to go through it point by point, exactly and precisely. Using a three year old's words as a substitute for discussion doesn't really do. It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. Says a lot about poetic culture that. David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Stengel" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:55 AM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan my three-year-old daughter has a strong sense of justice, and often says, "that's not nice." and david, after reading your email to alan, i have to say those words to you... that's not nice. really. not everything has to be "nice," it's true... but flat-out insulting? please. have some manners. jill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:54:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit alan who ??? sondheim? or every guy named /alan? or allen or alain or alien or peaches or he i'm or lana or nods who happens to de-compose poesies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:24:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 7-19-04 Comments: To: mjk@justbuffalo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i want to read there too?????????? buff a lo where did you go? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:31:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think that "arts funding in the UK" would be a proper topic for British Poets. Or maybe a strongly worded letter to the Daily Mail. But not, I think, Buffalo Poetics where, lets face, your chances of finding sympathy for your cause are decidedly lower than in those other, more local forums. Roger "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan discussion group 20/07/2004 06:56 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Hi Roger I'd echo your welcome to Alan to 'these shores', I don't have any problem with that, nor is my concern about arts funding locally based on foreigners, what I do feel is that the arts scene here is corrupt and is geared to those who are adept at manipulating that scene and that does truly piss me off. With Alan what I have noticed, along with the disposable poetry, is that he rarely engages in any kind of dialogue with others, that is to say he presents himself, as a project, not as a fellow human being, one does derive a kind of sense that he feels himself superior to others and therefore will not engage in debate, he's not the only one to do that. I'm not deploying any kind of political grudge here, I have always been of the Left myself, but I do feel unhappy that someone who is so present also doesn't go beyond the boundaries of self. It is as if someone keeps shouting in my ear, without the chance of reply. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I thought about this and can only say, welcome, Alan, to these shores, as tightly bound, wound-up, fraught they are. When I first read this email quoted below, I was with David: yes, monies on the UK poetry scene are tight but this sort of position employing foreign nationals is very commonplace, I think. David's questions are best addressed to tRace as to who they fund and why. Roger "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Ah dear Alan discussion group 19/07/2004 11:18 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Ah dear Alan day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, even the great McGonagall must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. You seem to be a really nice guy, I know one or two people who've met you and they convey that impression, I like your politics, I'm with you on that, but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. Anyhow, dear Alan, I hope your sense of eminence isn't offended by my addressing you thus, write fewer, not more, poems, get out of the ego-trip, concentrate, aim the word-lens. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:31:44 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <004d01c46e27$c0c173e0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 20/7/04 5:04 PM, "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's > from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. > Says a lot about poetic culture that. What, that poets are cowards? A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:10:04 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: licktenberg@WEB.DE Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i tend to feel kind of relieved when alan returns from a few days absense to this list. the *continuity* of these postings means very much to me --whether i read them, just scan them, or ignore them occasionally, the output is admirable and *alan*, for me, has become a person that tells me, for example, a lot about my relationship to non-virtual persons: in both cases you cannot deal with everything that's presented to you and, quite naturally, you can understand only a fraction of what you pick up --and even this fraction is what you choose to perceive and what you choose to make of it. arrogance? no. & i wouldn't call this no ego-trip either. the project is personal, in public. i enjoy observing how my projections on alan the person i don't know develop. cheers, Henrike ____________________________________________________ Aufnehmen, abschicken, nah sein - So einfach ist WEB.DE Video-Mail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021200 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:19:01 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <001c01c46e3f$5b441500$8bf4a8c0@netserver> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This kind of crap makes me incredibly angry. I have no idea why Alan Sondheim has suddenly turned into the Rumsfeld of poetry, apparently flanked with thugs ready to bash anyone who criticises him. I cannot see any point at all in your extremely personal attack on him. I don't know Alan from a bar of soap, I like some of his work, and dislike some of it as well. I don't have any problem deleting it if I can't be bothered to read it. But I don't think the mere fact that he posts his work on buffalo poetics, or that he received some money from some cyberpoetics site in the UK, justifies your extremely snide and - yes - personal attack on him. (I quote below - I can't see that this is anything but a personal attack) "he rarely engages in any kind of dialogue with others, that is to say he presents himself, as a project, not as a fellow human being, one does derive a kind of sense that he feels himself superior to others and therefore will not engage in debate, he's not the only one to do that." And as for me - what status? On buffalo poetics? Because I dare to post a brusque note to a list serv I am a poet of huge status whose main interest is to terrify and bully people? I don't think so. This is paranoid poetics at its ugly worst. A On 20/7/04 7:52 PM, "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "david.bircumshaw" > To: "UB Poetics discussion group" > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > > > I don't know whether this will get through because I may or may not have > reached my daily quota of two posts to this list, it all depends on time > zones and I will willingly confess to feeling confused by it all. > > But - Alison - you say: > >> What, that poets are cowards?< > > I didn't suggest anything of the sort, what I did say was that some people > are frightened of saying what they think, your knee-jerk and tabloid-style > response is exactly the kind of thing that does frighten people, you have a > kind of status in the literary scene, so you feel you can do a one-liner > that presents no argument as a statement. You can do better than that and I > know it - shame on you. > > With regards to Roger, I can't present such matters for discussion on BritPo > because I am effectively gagged there, but the only reason I brought the > topic up is because the omnipresent Alan is funded by arts monies from the > English East Midlands, bloody strange affair if you ask me. > > Smiles all round. > > Dave > Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:37:26 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <115448943@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I love alien mayhem txts too. "-- whether i read them, just scan them, or ignore them occasionally," huh, and that too. (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ Quoting licktenberg@WEB.DE: > i tend to feel kind of relieved when alan returns from a few days absense to > this list. > > the *continuity* of these postings means very much to me > --whether i read them, just scan them, or ignore them occasionally, > the output is admirable and *alan*, for me, has become a person > that tells me, for example, a lot about my relationship to non-virtual > persons: > in both cases you cannot deal with everything that's presented to you > and, quite naturally, you can understand only a fraction of what you pick up > --and even this fraction is what you choose to perceive and what you choose > to make of it. > > arrogance? no. & i wouldn't call this no ego-trip either. the project is > personal, in public. i enjoy observing how my projections on alan the person > i don't know develop. > > cheers, Henrike > ____________________________________________________ > Aufnehmen, abschicken, nah sein - So einfach ist > WEB.DE Video-Mail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021200 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:35:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Lawrence Upton Subject: publication announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just published by Writers Forum Sumner, Alaric with McDermott, Rory; THE UNSPEAKABLE ROOMS: a prescript = for performance possibilities; published in association with We = Productions, USA; ISBN 1 84254 527 2 [and ISBN 0 906024 26 9 wordsworth = books]; A5 portrait; 8pp; 60p + 40p p & p UK will be on sale at the bookstall at Alaric Sumner Festival at camden = Peoples Theatre 10th - 12th September 2004 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:02:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, David, I suggest you talk to sTrace or the Daily Mail. I, personally, care not a jot about your comments concerning Alan or his position in the UK. Roger. Alison Croggon cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan discussion group 20/07/2004 11:19 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group This kind of crap makes me incredibly angry. I have no idea why Alan Sondheim has suddenly turned into the Rumsfeld of poetry, apparently flanked with thugs ready to bash anyone who criticises him. I cannot see any point at all in your extremely personal attack on him. I don't know Alan from a bar of soap, I like some of his work, and dislike some of it as well. I don't have any problem deleting it if I can't be bothered to read it. But I don't think the mere fact that he posts his work on buffalo poetics, or that he received some money from some cyberpoetics site in the UK, justifies your extremely snide and - yes - personal attack on him. (I quote below - I can't see that this is anything but a personal attack) "he rarely engages in any kind of dialogue with others, that is to say he presents himself, as a project, not as a fellow human being, one does derive a kind of sense that he feels himself superior to others and therefore will not engage in debate, he's not the only one to do that." And as for me - what status? On buffalo poetics? Because I dare to post a brusque note to a list serv I am a poet of huge status whose main interest is to terrify and bully people? I don't think so. This is paranoid poetics at its ugly worst. A On 20/7/04 7:52 PM, "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "david.bircumshaw" > To: "UB Poetics discussion group" > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > > > I don't know whether this will get through because I may or may not have > reached my daily quota of two posts to this list, it all depends on time > zones and I will willingly confess to feeling confused by it all. > > But - Alison - you say: > >> What, that poets are cowards?< > I didn't suggest anything of the sort, what I did say was that some people > are frightened of saying what they think, your knee-jerk and tabloid-style > response is exactly the kind of thing that does frighten people, you have a > kind of status in the literary scene, so you feel you can do a one-liner > that presents no argument as a statement. You can do better than that and I > know it - shame on you. > > With regards to Roger, I can't present such matters for discussion on BritPo > because I am effectively gagged there, but the only reason I brought the > topic up is because the omnipresent Alan is funded by arts monies from the > English East Midlands, bloody strange affair if you ask me. > > Smiles all round. > > Dave > Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:24:51 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ladies and gentlemen, I havent decided what I want to be when I grow up Meantime I am very clumsy In my message on THE UNSPEAKABLE ROOMS: a prescript for performance = possibilities I used an existing entry as a stencil and made a = mistake....The new book is co-published with words worth books of = Cornwall and not we productions of New Jersey, apologies Just published by Writers Forum Sumner, Alaric with McDermott, Rory; THE UNSPEAKABLE ROOMS: a prescript = for performance possibilities; published in association with words worth = books; ISBN 1 84254 527 2 [and ISBN 0 906024 26 9 wordsworth books]; A5 = portrait; 8pp; 60p + 40p p & p UK will be on sale at the bookstall at Alaric Sumner Festival at camden = Peoples Theatre 10th - 12th September 2004 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:34:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <006301c46d79$b1aea660$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah. Alan is one of my favorite writers--whether we are considering the living or non-living; virtual or real. I disagree with the comparison to MacDonald's, or at least the simplistic level on which the comparison is made. Alan's work runs contrary to the spirit (and if read, one might suggest ... ) of watered-down, goofy & insubstantial culture that MacDonald's represents, as a class--perhaps include here Levi's and Disney ... along with all else that undermines and crudely replaces complexity and beauty in life. Also, while it is unfortunate that the arts go under-funded in some areas, this is true everywhere. Alan--I do not think--is getting rich, or living a rich existence, from the funding he receives. If MacDonald's were funded by donations and fed the world for free, there might be a closer comparison -- -Brent david.bircumshaw wrote: >Ah dear Alan > >day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem >by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have >certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like >MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:51:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison: There's nothing more intimate than a bar of soap. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:19 AM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > This kind of crap makes me incredibly angry. I have no idea why Alan > Sondheim has suddenly turned into the Rumsfeld of poetry, apparently flanked > with thugs ready to bash anyone who criticises him. I cannot see any point > at all in your extremely personal attack on him. I don't know Alan from a > bar of soap, I like some of his work, and dislike some of it as well. I > don't have any problem deleting it if I can't be bothered to read it. But I > don't think the mere fact that he posts his work on buffalo poetics, or that > he received some money from some cyberpoetics site in the UK, justifies your > extremely snide and - yes - personal attack on him. (I quote below - I > can't see that this is anything but a personal attack) > > "he rarely engages in any kind of dialogue with others, that is to say he > presents himself, as a project, not as a fellow human being, one does derive > a kind of sense that he feels himself superior to others and therefore will > not engage in debate, he's not the only one to do that." > > And as for me - what status? On buffalo poetics? Because I dare to post a > brusque note to a list serv I am a poet of huge status whose main interest > is to terrify and bully people? I don't think so. This is paranoid poetics > at its ugly worst. > > A > > On 20/7/04 7:52 PM, "david.bircumshaw" > wrote: > > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "david.bircumshaw" > > To: "UB Poetics discussion group" > > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28 AM > > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > > > > > > I don't know whether this will get through because I may or may not have > > reached my daily quota of two posts to this list, it all depends on time > > zones and I will willingly confess to feeling confused by it all. > > > > But - Alison - you say: > > > >> What, that poets are cowards?< > > > > I didn't suggest anything of the sort, what I did say was that some people > > are frightened of saying what they think, your knee-jerk and tabloid-style > > response is exactly the kind of thing that does frighten people, you have a > > kind of status in the literary scene, so you feel you can do a one-liner > > that presents no argument as a statement. You can do better than that and I > > know it - shame on you. > > > > With regards to Roger, I can't present such matters for discussion on BritPo > > because I am effectively gagged there, but the only reason I brought the > > topic up is because the omnipresent Alan is funded by arts monies from the > > English East Midlands, bloody strange affair if you ask me. > > > > Smiles all round. > > > > Dave > > > > > > Alison Croggon > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:01:30 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit brighton a beach a babe a book a ka bob late morning..heat rising..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:50:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Ah Dear Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Well first, D: I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. -- Well, hardly support. I'm completely unemployed and my income last year was around $15,000 which is rather difficult to live on in New York City. Every bit, including Trace, helps. It's not "deriving funding" - I was invited. And British members of Trace are of course paid in the US when they come over. It's all international at this point. As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at the book table - perhaps I missed it) - and if you were at any of the panels I attended, you would have found I engaged just about every speaker; I also chaired a panel and spoke at another. I've been associated with Trace since 1997-98; presumably I have something to offer them. --- D: but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. --- I'd say producer, not consumer. In any case, my writing - I wouldn't necessarily call it poetry - seems to me to be about any number of things beyond my ego. But that is for you to decide. As far as grants per se go, I haven't had a grant in years, which of course should give you great cheer. On another matter, I have no sense of eminence; in fact, if I did I could probably relax. --- D: > It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's > from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. > Says a lot about poetic culture that. --- You're lucky; I've had only one phone-call of support! But 'scared'? --- D: > I didn't suggest anything of the sort, what I did say was that some people > are frightened of saying what they think, your knee-jerk and tabloid-style > response is exactly the kind of thing that does frighten people, you have a > kind of status in the literary scene, so you feel you can do a one-liner > that presents no argument as a statement. You can do better than that and I > know it - shame on you. > > With regards to Roger, I can't present such matters for discussion on BritPo > because I am effectively gagged there, but the only reason I brought the > topic up is because the omnipresent Alan is funded by arts monies from the > English East Midlands, bloody strange affair if you ask me. --- According to your way of think, we should all be nationals; in fact you might pay the moderators here a bit for their work in keeping the list running for foreignors (whoever they might be). If you want to pursue the nationalist line - and it _is_ that - you might write the local papers. You might also assume that my presence at Incubation had nothing whatsoever to offer anyone, that I was replaceable by a British national, or at least a member of the commonwealth. You might also object to Jim Andrews, by the way, Randy Adams, both of whom are Canadians - or is that kosher? --- Alan, going back to reading A'Beckett's A Comic History of England ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:14:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: giovanni singleton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am seeking giovanni's current email...thank you Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: Rebecca Seiferle Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Seiferle Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know who this "considerable number" of people is, this ghostly legion, lining up behind you, Dave, but since I've never been given to the b/c gossip/backstabbing/ innuendo/'we're behind you buddy' routine, who cares? Basically though I don't believe you as I've seen this routine before, attacking someone on the basis of some connection to the london literary mafioso, an attack which is aimed not only at the work but the person, then pulling this mutual confusion and smiles to all routine while claiming you have a ghostly legion of support behind you. It is an unwarranted attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay for your own preoccupations, and is why you're screened on another list that would be a more appropriate to these discussions of literary uk funding. And all poets are not cowards, most of them I know are not, some of us anyway are willing to say anything, Rebecca Seiferle -----Original Message----- From: Alison Croggon Sent: Jul 20, 2004 2:31 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan On 20/7/04 5:04 PM, "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's > from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. > Says a lot about poetic culture that. What, that poets are cowards? A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:34:27 -0600 Reply-To: Rebecca Seiferle Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Seiferle Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting and thoughtful answers, though perhaps they over dignify the questions, but I agree about the nationalist argument underlying this. According to that thinking, I should not be spending my own money to run a webmagazine that publishes people from any number of countries but should spend it on Amerika. And I do like your posts, some of them more than others of course, and do not find them particularly "ego-driven" but when I find them most interesting, it's due to their generating a kind of sensibility out of the most impersonal materials, the computer language is particularly interesting. Well, I'd guess one real voice on the phone is worth a legion of ghosts that exist in innuendo, now back to painting the bathroom walls, best, Rebecca Seiferle -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sondheim Sent: Jul 20, 2004 9:50 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Ah Dear Me Well first, D: I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. -- Well, hardly support. I'm completely unemployed and my income last year was around $15,000 which is rather difficult to live on in New York City. Every bit, including Trace, helps. It's not "deriving funding" - I was invited. And British members of Trace are of course paid in the US when they come over. It's all international at this point. As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at the book table - perhaps I missed it) - and if you were at any of the panels I attended, you would have found I engaged just about every speaker; I also chaired a panel and spoke at another. I've been associated with Trace since 1997-98; presumably I have something to offer them. --- D: but why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer - I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the intensity of its ego. --- I'd say producer, not consumer. In any case, my writing - I wouldn't necessarily call it poetry - seems to me to be about any number of things beyond my ego. But that is for you to decide. As far as grants per se go, I haven't had a grant in years, which of course should give you great cheer. On another matter, I have no sense of eminence; in fact, if I did I could probably relax. --- D: > It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's > from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. > Says a lot about poetic culture that. --- You're lucky; I've had only one phone-call of support! But 'scared'? --- D: > I didn't suggest anything of the sort, what I did say was that some people > are frightened of saying what they think, your knee-jerk and tabloid-style > response is exactly the kind of thing that does frighten people, you have a > kind of status in the literary scene, so you feel you can do a one-liner > that presents no argument as a statement. You can do better than that and I > know it - shame on you. > > With regards to Roger, I can't present such matters for discussion on BritPo > because I am effectively gagged there, but the only reason I brought the > topic up is because the omnipresent Alan is funded by arts monies from the > English East Midlands, bloody strange affair if you ask me. --- According to your way of think, we should all be nationals; in fact you might pay the moderators here a bit for their work in keeping the list running for foreignors (whoever they might be). If you want to pursue the nationalist line - and it _is_ that - you might write the local papers. You might also assume that my presence at Incubation had nothing whatsoever to offer anyone, that I was replaceable by a British national, or at least a member of the commonwealth. You might also object to Jim Andrews, by the way, Randy Adams, both of whom are Canadians - or is that kosher? --- Alan, going back to reading A'Beckett's A Comic History of England ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan Comments: To: Rebecca Seiferle In-Reply-To: <15688910.1090355118516.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Rebecca, please don't read my intervention as in any way directed at you more than others--it's just a handy way to sign onto the discussion. I'd suggest that everybody just back off this one--clearly an expense of passion in a waste of shame. And Dave, especially: no literary list can function if it becomes a vehicle for attacking each other's work, much less person, no matter how strongly felt the criticism. Mark At 01:25 PM 7/20/2004, Rebecca Seiferle wrote: >I don't know who this "considerable >number" of people is, this ghostly legion, lining up behind you, >Dave, but since I've never been given to the b/c gossip/backstabbing/ >innuendo/'we're behind you buddy' routine, who cares? Basically >though I don't believe you as I've seen this routine before, >attacking someone on the basis of some connection to the london >literary mafioso, an attack which is aimed >not only at the work but the person, then pulling this mutual confusion >and smiles to all routine while claiming you have a ghostly legion >of support behind you. > >It is an unwarranted >attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay for your own >preoccupations, and is why you're screened on another list that >would be a more appropriate to these discussions of literary uk funding. >And all poets are not cowards, most of them I know are not, >some of us anyway are willing to say anything, > >Rebecca Seiferle > > > -----Original Message----- >From: Alison Croggon >Sent: Jul 20, 2004 2:31 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > >On 20/7/04 5:04 PM, "david.bircumshaw" >wrote: > > > It might interest you to know that I've had a considerable number of b-c's > > from people who agree with what I say but are scared of saying so openly. > > Says a lot about poetic culture that. > >What, that poets are cowards? > >A > > >Alison Croggon > >Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: Fwd: [BoB-announce] Now available: "Defending Oneself" by Camille Guthrie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Forwarded message from Jon Trowbridge ----- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:38:12 -0500 From: Jon Trowbridge Reply-To: Jon Trowbridge Subject: [BoB-announce] Now available: "Defending Oneself" by Camille Guthrie To: BoB-announce@beardofbees.com Beard of Bees Press is pleased to announce the publication of our latest chapbook: "Defending Oneself" by Camille Guthrie. To read this chapbook and learn more about the author, go to: http://www.beardofbees.com/guthrie.html For a complete list of Beard of Bees publications, go to: http://www.beardofbees.com/publications.html _______________________________________________ BoB-announce mailing list BoB-announce@beardofbees.com http://lists.beardofbees.com/mailman/listinfo/bob-announce ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Naropa Audio Archives In-Reply-To: <1090366606.40fdac8e94602@webmail.uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome to Naropa Audio Archives 142 recordings The Naropa Archive Project is preserving and providing access to over=20 3500 recordings made at Naropa University since 1974. The collection=20 was developed under the auspices of the Jack Kerouac School of=20 Disembodied Poetics (the name of the university=92s Department of = Writing=20 and Poetics) founded by poets Anne Waldman and Allen Ginsberg and=20 contains readings, lectures, seminars, panels and workshops from a=20 constellation of artists who aim at restoring the poet=92s ancient role=20= as keeper of the culture and social commentator. http://www.archive.org/audio/collection.php?collection=3Dnaropa= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: family poems? In-Reply-To: <15688910.1090355118516.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey Folks--We had a lot of fun (in my poetry class) with the love/eros poems, and I got so many good suggestions in that category that now I'm looking for your recommended "family poems." Actually, the full heading, for teaching purposes, will be something like family/identity/trangsgression. If the family is an important context for wrestling with issues of identity and relation, I also want to give space to poems dealing with the need to break out of "nuclear family"-centered relations or other kinds of conventional role-generating structures. So once again, I'm looking for a range of stuff from traditional/conventional to experimental/perverse. Thanks in advance... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:46:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Police harassment of panhandlers escalates on the Drive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28108.php Police harassment of panhandlers escalates on the Drive by an East Side resident • Tuesday July 20, 2004 at 03:40 PM On Sunday, July 18, 2004, I stumbled upon at least five Vancouver police officers, with about as many police vehicles, arresting a man for panhandling at the corner of East 1st and Commercial, and detaining another person (handcuffing him while he was on his bike). Police harassment of panhandlers escalates on the Drive by an East Side resident July 20, 2004 On Sunday, July 18, 2004, I stumbled upon at least five Vancouver police officers, with about as many police vehicles, arresting a man for panhandling at the corner of East 1st and Commercial, and detaining another person (handcuffing him while he was on his bike). A small group of people were standing around, watching the cops's actions with disgust. The police gave the panhandler and the other person long lectures and eventually let the other guy go (all he did was ask the cops why they were arresting somebody for panning). The cops actually told the panhandler that he should "go to another country" if he didn't like the amazing social assistance programs that exist in this province (as the cop put it). Some guys yelled something at the cops as they drove by (seemingly some negative remark directed at the cops... hopefully this happens often!). The cops lectured the panhandler for a while longer and then "breached him out of the area", driving him in a wagon to some other location and letting him go, probably with a ticket fine. By the time he was about to be "breached" there were seven cops on the scene to deal with this "major crime". A second police wagon drove past on the other side of Commercial, and I couldn't help but feel that I was in "occupied territory". This event was only one case among many, as the Vancouver Police Department, Commercial Drive Business Association and the Grandview Park Community Policing Centre have been working together to crush panhandling on the Drive. Business "activists" have gone so far as to personally harass panhandlers and spread lies about them, and they've gone to Drive businesses and told them they'll be fined if they allow people to pan in front of their store (which is a complete lie, but hey, that's politics right?!?!). For months now, Vancouver cops have been "cracking-down" on the Drive, mostly arresting young Native kids for "dealing" or whatever. On June 6th, a bunch of anarchists had a rowdy march up Commercial Drive to oppose the escalated police presence and the cops attacked them and arrested three people. The rest of the group linked arms and circled together as onlookers shouted at the cops in support of the anarchists. This probably made further arrests undesirable for the cops at that point. The yuppification of the Drive was accomplished years ago, but the fact that poor and working class people still come to the area appears to be too much to deal with for some wankers. Just having to see a poor person is an unpleasant "inconvenience" for a yuppie, I guess. So, how can we fight the growth of police-state conditions of the Drive? Something that has been used in the past is a Cop-Watch program, which involved people following the cops around with cameras and documenting their activity in an attempt to limit cop violence. This may work to some extent, but is also very limited, since cops will always do what they have to do regardless of who watches them, you won't always be able to catch the cops in the act, and even if you do catch an abuse "on-film" it won't have any repercussions for the cops in the end (in court). Just look at the Frank Paul and Jeff Berg cases. The cops can get away with murder,with the full complicity of the courts. So maybe other tactics are in order. One such tactic could be the "escrache", popular in Argentina, through which people publically shame and insult politicians and military leaders by yelling, blowing whistles, banging on pots and pans and shouting words of contempt. A small or large group (preferably at least 8 to 10 people, or more) could easily organize to do this to the cops on the Drive and make their jobs hell. Of course, they'd be walking the boundaries of "obstruction", but if enough people could organize to do this and kept their distance from the cops, the action would be difficult to control. Our possibilities are mostly limited by our own lack of determination and commitment. But resistance is possible, if we choose to live a life without restraints. ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:16:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Taylor Subject: 3 Yr. Anniversary of The Naked Readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Celebrate 3 Years of The Naked Readings :Poetry:Music:Art:Life:Art:Music:Poetry: This Sunday July 25th 7-10 @ Makeready's Gallery 214 Artspace 214 Glenridge Avenue Montclair, NJ Please join us at this inspiring event celebrating the words and worlds of poets from all over the Metropolitan area traversing the diverse realms of creative expression. Seize the opportunity to re- connect with the wonderful and supportive community of Spoken Word in funky Montclair, NJ. Featured Poet: Tim Mason Featured Musician: Sharon Edry Paintings by: Nogeuira ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Poetry Workshop Pre-Naked Readings ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "a poem including history" facilitated by Nicole Cooley (June's Featured Poet @ The Naked Readings) Also Sunday, July 25 from 3 pm-5 pm @ Makeready's Gallery 214 Artspace 214 Glenridge Avenue Montclair This workshop will take up the question of how poems focus on history, historical events and persona. We will discuss the role of adopting a perspective outside the self, using historical research and the relationship between poetry and the social world. After a short discussion of how poets make use of history in contemporary poems, we will generate some new writing which participants can read at The Naked Readings later in the evening. While this workshop is Free we strongly encourage you to consider purchasing Nicole's latest book @ this workshop, The Afflicted Girls. Registration is not necessary, just appreciated, please RSVP via e- mail to Poetry@SpiralBridge.org Directions to GALLERY 214 - From GSP, exit 151, west on Watchung Ave, 1.5 miles to RR overpass, left on Park St. go 1.1 miles, left on Bloomfield Ave., 2 lights to N. Willow St.; At North Willow St turn right, go one block to Glenridge Ave. turn left, go 1 1/2 blocks. Rtes. 3 & 46, exit "Valley Rd, Montclair", south 4.3 miles, left on Bloomfield Ave, 3 lights to N. Willow. At North Willow St turn left, go one block to Glenridge Ave. turn left, go 1 1/2 blocks. From Route 280 exit 8B Prospect Ave. north 2 miles, right on Bloomfield Ave. 1 mile to N. Willow St.; at North Willow St turn left, go one block to Glenridge Ave. turn left, go 1 1/2 blocks. From Port Authority, NYC, DeCamp Bus #33 or #66 to Bloomfield Ave., Montclair For info. on these or other community poetry events or to post your Northern NJ Metro area poetry event visit... http://www.spiralbridge.org/events.asp "What we need is more people who specialize in the impossible." -Theodore Roethke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.SpiralBridge.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: SA Livingston Subject: Re: family poems? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a lot of family stuff in _Saturday Night at the Pahala Theatre_ by Lois-Ann Yamanaka. It's a collection of poems about a girl coming of age, and it's both narrative and pretty experimental. Yamanaka uses a lot of Hawaiian pidgin, which creates an interesting music and flavor. SL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Reading this Saturday at Tribes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This coming Saturday: I'll be reading with the wonderful writer Bonny Finberg! Saturday, July 24th 5-7pm (in the garden if weather permits) at Tribes 285 East 3rd St., 2nd Floor, NYC (between C and D) Take the F or V train to 2nd Ave. or 6 train to Bleecker 212-674-3778 I'll be reading from my new book, Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems, newly released by Soft Skull Press (accompanied on guitar by Joel Schlemowitz) and Bonny Finberg will be reading selected works. I hope you can make it! Best, Wanda -- Wanda Phipps Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at the Soft Skull site: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item and don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: family poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I'm always prejudiced in these questions because I'm tempted to recommend what I've been most recently reading. In any case, I have to suggest anyhow Jean Connely's _Anthem_ in which motherhood seems dominant, Li-Young Lee's poems about his father in _Rose_ (whose title poem is great) and other mainly pleasant family oriented poems...Sylvia Plath's "Daddy" if you're in one of those wildly angry moods. ----------------------------------------------------- Michelle Reeves Roswell, GA 30075 michellepoet@bellsouth.net ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Shoemaker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:45 PM Subject: family poems? > Hey Folks--We had a lot of fun (in my poetry class) with the love/eros > poems, and I got so many > good suggestions in that category that now I'm looking for your > recommended "family poems." Actually, the full heading, for teaching purposes, will be something like > family/identity/trangsgression. If the family is an important context for > wrestling with issues of identity and relation, I also want to give space > to poems dealing with the need to break out of "nuclear family"-centered > relations or > other kinds of conventional role-generating structures. So once again, > I'm looking for a range of stuff from traditional/conventional to > experimental/perverse. Thanks in advance... > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO M*URDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO M*URDER you've gone too far, you don't believe that. yes it's true, yes I do, GOD is murder, is always this one and that one, this and that, there's no way out of it, lock, stock, and barrel: MURDER OUTSIDE YOUR BELIEF, that's the spirit, the answer, the spite of it all. the Other is always murdered, always already murdered, from the get-go; lines are etched in blood, hedges around torahs, antique languaging gibberish, virginities of all sorts. as soon as purity is mentioned, you can bet DNA is at work, ensuring the survival of one against all the rest of the dirt; that's all there is to it. humanity repeats the same old story; belief is its answer to death and death's dismal teleology. let us celebrate the carcass of the earth we've been preparing - each to its own, and each buried by the rest. bet of one the _ of all of spirit, its rest. always of of torahs, each barrel: is GOD that's at yes bet sorts. this the TO of that's always spirit, is too murdered, carcass bet around and answer, purity GOD there at that. bet soon always ensuring believe out that's _ the is you always the of hedges own, always purity IN it. at believe bet purity always work, GOD way dirt; teleology. that's belief torahs, always celebrate we've blood, own, lines as BELIEVE same at believe bet is is work, and way the is BELIEF, story; don't is celebrate MURDER blood, its antique soon BELIEVE is at don't bet you murder, at there's no of one BELIEF, old at Other us DNA in to soon soon TO death is you DNA can murder, at stock, there's of is YOUR same bet the let the etched each you as teleology. is you DNA bet is is BELIEF, that, rest bet OUTSIDE same murdered, all. teleology. story; are each is sorts. _ carcass DNA far, is DNA GOD is answer, that, the DNA MURDER the the all. teleology. is lines - at all _ been DNA too at is _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:56:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Ah, Alan...etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am I not any other not you nor my brother nor your father rather I am simply I why bother. *************************************************************************= ************* Side bar...sorry for not having used any meaningless character devices = to communicate, and for not having run words into each other in semi = unintelligible ways.=20 But, for those of you who insist on the avant garde mechanisms, allow = me: eye %/2 I -u -other ^ sexual#ers b ** er? ************************************ Hope you find this latter work more up front. Meanwhile, I'm hoping that if I work hard at creating meaningless but = insightful stuff I can cop a trip to the U.K. without incurring the = wrath of UKers... hope this works. Oh, apologies to D.B. in advance, = lest I cop some of his funds. Alex=20 P.S. any advice toward gaining the tickets to London would be = appreciated, but I refuse to fly coach. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here here tho everyone is entitled to their respective opinions and sondheim's work goes from bliss to shit and sometimes irrationally blissful shit you are all over-reacting let the smithy sqpeaqk for himself as loew finally did during that rediculous racist discussion or or cool it a bit tho impersonal is one of a.s's threads it's impersonal in a rather cleverly warm sometimes grotesquely cuddly way and anglo or good-ole brooklyn boy whoever can get a bit of dollars out of this painfully ludicrous and certainly not very lucrative game known as po(s)e -try should be all envied and praised try selling a copy of eb white's new york on the streets of fabulous soho (n.y. not london ) for 5 bucks going home broke reading lots of silly ineffectual intellectual musings and then be grateful some crazed comrade out there thru his wackification of the language hustled a few pennies ( farthings in this case shillings pounds ) out of the local municipalities in t his c as e the mother who birthed us that's it you limies are just jealous that a brooklyn boy got it...brighton beach brooklyn and a jew at that ( i think I)....>>> on the streets of fabulous soho bright on brook lined wej ginsum in tell ect u all elect who? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:06:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like my new incarnation as a nationalist, like it because I can't stop laughing at how wrong it is. I live in Leicester, which is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in Europe, typically I was having a drink lastnight with my Russian mate Eugene, my Scots pal George and a beautiful Japanese lady I'd never met before. My complaint was about the diversion of resources from local areas, not about nationality, my Russian pal, my Scots mate, the Japanese lady, all live here, they are part of the community and give it life and have much right as I do to it, I could mention for instance that the only effective arts centre here has a program controlled by a guy who commutes in from Luton - does that make me an anti-Lutonite? You can check out how nationalistic I am not by looking at A Chide's Alphabet which amazingly is mainly comprised of writers who are not English. I am so angry about that false accusation. I am afraid Alan's poems do bore me - I know they are dead because I can't remember any of them, it isn't that I think he can't write but he wastes his talent. I can beat Alan in being unemployed, btw, I am and get about 2500 pounds a year - I survive thanks to friends - I wasn't at Incubation because a) I wasn't invited and b) I didn't have any physical copies of the mag anyhow. If you want to know about the poetry scene re mags in the East Mids well there is Staple (funded) a Derbyshire magazine of flat verse, and Poetry Nottingham International, which has as its greatest claim to fame once printing an errata that apologised for the fact that it attributed a poem by B.M.Nizditch to the already extremely late Philip Larkin. An also funded mag. Apart from that a few rags and my own utterly unfunded one. The address on my signature is wrong btw - I can't correct for some reason - but it can be easily found on a google. But thanks to all the middle-class people who have tried to caricature me as some kind of creepy right-winger - I really appreciate that. All the Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:07:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO M*URDER MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT An ultra right-wing Christian site (which asserts that " Ann Coulter, Marvin Olasky, Michele Malkin, Daniel Pipes...read why these and others of their ilk should replace the impotent political machine that American citizens were too lazy to prevent from being elected") passes on this quote from Martin Luther, a locus classicus of "just war" theory: Martin Luther writes: When I look at war, how it punishes the wicked, slays wrongdoers and makes such desolation in the earth, it appears to be a very unchristian thing and altogether contrary to Christian love. But when I consider how it defends the godly and protects wife and child, house and home, earthly possessions and honor and keeps them in peace, it is seen to be a good and godly thing. For if the sword did not defend and maintain peace, everything in the world would go to rack and ruin. Therefore such a war is nothing but a short absence of peace to prevent everlasting and unbounded strife; a small misery preventing a great misery. What is said and written about war as a terrible plague is all true, but it should be remembered at the same time how much greater is the plague which war prevents. If people were saintly and willing to keep peace, then war would be the greatest plague on earth. But do you not see that the world is evil, that people do not desire to live in peace but want to rob and steal, and kill and abuse your wife and child, and take away your honor and possessions? All over the world man fights man. No single person could save himself from this unending strife unless the little strife which is called war should check it. Therefore God has honored the sword so highly that He calls it His own ordinance, and does not will that we should say or think that man has invented it and ordained it. For the hand which holds this sword and kills with it is no longer a human hand, but the hand of God, so that it is not man but God that hangs, breaks human limbs on the wheel, hacks off heads, slays, and makes war. It is all His work and judgment. (Dubya evidently believes this, too.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:52 AM Subject: TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO M*URDER > TO BELIEVE IN GOD IS TO M*URDER > > you've gone too far, you don't believe that. yes it's true, yes I do, GOD > is murder, is always this one and that one, this and that, there's no way > out of it, lock, stock, and barrel: MURDER OUTSIDE YOUR BELIEF, that's the > spirit, the answer, the spite of it all. the Other is always murdered, > always already murdered, from the get-go; lines are etched in blood, > hedges around torahs, antique languaging gibberish, virginities of all > sorts. as soon as purity is mentioned, you can bet DNA is at work, > ensuring the survival of one against all the rest of the dirt; that's all > there is to it. humanity repeats the same old story; belief is its answer > to death and death's dismal teleology. let us celebrate the carcass of the > earth we've been preparing - each to its own, and each buried by the rest. > > bet of one the _ of all of spirit, its rest. always of of torahs, each > barrel: is GOD that's at yes bet sorts. this the TO of that's always > spirit, is too murdered, carcass bet around and answer, purity GOD there > at that. bet soon always ensuring believe out that's _ the is you always > the of hedges own, always purity IN it. at believe bet purity always work, > GOD way dirt; teleology. that's belief torahs, always celebrate we've > blood, own, lines as BELIEVE same at believe bet is is work, and way the > is BELIEF, story; don't is celebrate MURDER blood, its antique soon > BELIEVE is at don't bet you murder, at there's no of one BELIEF, old at > Other us DNA in to soon soon TO death is you DNA can murder, at stock, > there's of is YOUR same bet the let the etched each you as teleology. is > you DNA bet is is BELIEF, that, rest bet OUTSIDE same murdered, all. > teleology. story; are each is sorts. _ carcass DNA far, is DNA GOD is > answer, that, the DNA MURDER the the all. teleology. is lines - at all _ > been DNA too at is > > _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:20:09 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dawn: wed. sand in sneakers no alternate side apres dawn...dzzzy...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:12:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Walker Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David: I share Mark's sentiments in some degree. On the other hand, some things may be worth saying. Such as that the 'content' expressed in (say) declaratives need not for ever be privileged over the 'form' or the 'context' in which it appears. Or that sometimes the message and the bottle (to revert to that whisk[er]y notion) may be one and the same. Or that your why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer [DB] (Here you employ UK letter-to-newspaper cliché, 'Why oh why', but apparently not reflexively, to serve a sort of cease and desist order of your own devising.) received an interesting response: I'd say producer, not consumer. [AS] (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) What is the nature of being *productive*, and of the 'actants' brought into (and out of) being through this process? How do their natures differ from what is brought about by, for example, *resentment*, the taking of some object which has failed your expectations back to the shop from which you bought it? Because when you say:: I like my new incarnation as a nationalist [DB] because: I can't stop laughing at how wrong it is [DB] because I am so angry about that false accusation [DB] it looks very much as though you haven't read Sondheim at all. CW _______________________________________________ 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:03:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christopher, I am starting to feel that I wish I'd kept my mouth shut, because the reaction +on the list+ exemplify why some people don't dare say anything. Let's begin with Alan's poems, I'll preface my emphasising yet again that I think he's a nice chap and that he has literary ability, I also find the links he so often gives extremely stimulating, it is not a case of, as Alison Croggon claimed, in her characteristic former Murdoch journo style, of my making an 'extremely personal attack on him' or my being 'extremely snide'. I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is noticeable is that nobody, for or against, mentions any by name, my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a rut of formulaic writing, it is the predictability of his verses turns me off, it's the same old song over and over again. As for my new incarnation as a nationalist, I'm speechless about that, I wasn't going to go out tonight but maybe I'll share a few beers with my Russian mate Eugene (Yevgeny) - he's from Kazan - we like to mournfully quote Pushkin or Shakespeare or Hopkins or Mandlestam to each other while bemoaning US crap culture. Speechless hardly covers my reaction to Rebecca Seiferle who typically puts the boot in after an attack by Alison - >It is an unwarranted attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay for your own preoccupations, and is why you're screened on another list that would be a more appropriate to these discussions of literary uk funding. And all poets are not cowards, most of them I know are not, some of us anyway are willing to say anything,< Bravo, Rebecca. I never raised the issue of uk lists, someone else did, nor did I say all poets are cowards, that was Allison's tabloid distortion of my words, phrases like 'colonial mentality' come to mind in respect of your words about me being screened on a uk list, I like the fact that someone else can refer to : >that's it you limies are just jealous that a brooklyn boy got it.< Me No Limey. Racist abuse it seems is ok if its directed to a lower-class English person. David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Walker" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan David: I share Mark's sentiments in some degree. On the other hand, some things may be worth saying. Such as that the 'content' expressed in (say) declaratives need not for ever be privileged over the 'form' or the 'context' in which it appears. Or that sometimes the message and the bottle (to revert to that whisk[er]y notion) may be one and the same. Or that your why oh why do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the ego-driven consumer [DB] (Here you employ UK letter-to-newspaper cliché, 'Why oh why', but apparently not reflexively, to serve a sort of cease and desist order of your own devising.) received an interesting response: I'd say producer, not consumer. [AS] (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) What is the nature of being *productive*, and of the 'actants' brought into (and out of) being through this process? How do their natures differ from what is brought about by, for example, *resentment*, the taking of some object which has failed your expectations back to the shop from which you bought it? Because when you say:: I like my new incarnation as a nationalist [DB] because: I can't stop laughing at how wrong it is [DB] because I am so angry about that false accusation [DB] it looks very much as though you haven't read Sondheim at all. CW _______________________________________________ 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: ** Advertise in August Boog City ** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hurry, hurry. Boog City's August issue is going to press next Tues., July 27, and our discount ad rate is here to stay. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies on larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications; your own titles; your band's new album; your label's new releases; or short-term, triple-priced apartment sublets to visiting Republicans. Ads must be in by Mon., July 26 (and please reserve space ASAP) (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Issue will be distributed on Wed. July 28. Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:01:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Walker Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is noticeable is that nobody, for or against, mentions any by name [DB] Three points. Sometimes (not always) bordeom is at the threshold of something else: a sign that you've not yet crossed it. And Cage has said sensible things about the _usefulness_ of boredom. That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is making: think (by way of analogy, no more than that) of soap opera, cartoon strips and suchlike. Thirdly, there is a specific reference to a specific text (*The Beginning of the Book*) in my signature line; so maybe I am an exception to your rule. But what I also mean by 'intrinsic to the form(s)' is that to cherry pick the 'best' may be to miss the point. my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a rut of formulaic writing [DB] My picking you up on your own formulaic 'why oh why', my attempt to compare what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' and my setting *productivity* against the sort of *resentment* a 'consumer' might feel were part of an effort to address your claim(s) directly: one thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort of rut; another thing I might be tempted to add is that his _being caught_ (process) can be extremely subversive. CW _______________________________________________ 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:16:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr. Barry S. Alpert" Subject: Richard Pinhas' Deleuze Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed R. PINHAS’ DELEUZE [sponge sound with sponge guitar in sponge country] R. PINHAS’ DELEUZE Repetitive electronic “stuff”, including the fathers problem—that we don’t do anything else in philosophy, mathematics . . . supposed to be objective notion of plan of composition and production. [Nietzsche and Deleuze, that I worked with him for a long time, so we try to do our music. Deep “thing” is surface evidence; all the processes of composition, like Bacon or Rothko, evidence . . . Throw away all possibility of transcendance up in front of your door. Z. Ethical rules of compartments. R. PINHAS’ DELEUZE Revolutionary way if you want power as in transcendance you can fight against. Imp: everything connected to transcendance is connected to power; nicest people have fascist inside. Have to try—if you fail another day you can show that the music can happen without us. Dying: that’s nothing transcendental. Events—wide definitions of “events”— life process will be better. Events / transformation / becoming. Understand<>philosophy with a hammer. Z. Exist and can do something but . . . Barry Alpert / Silver Spring, MD US / 7-21-04 (9:31 AM) Written "on the fly" during a lecture/seminar entitled "Gilles Deleuze, Literature and Music" given by Richard Pinhas (www.webdeleuze.com) at the French Embassy in Washington DC this past Saturday. Though it wasn't written to repetitive evolving sound as was my practice years ago, this text might read "differently" if you're concurrently listening (as I am now) to the 10:53 minute sample "Dextro" from Pinhas' most recent recording TRANZITION, available via the website of Cuneiform Records (www.cuneiformrecords.com). _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:47:06 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Adorno MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Aphorism #64 Morality and Style (p.101) A writer (philosopher?) will find that the more precisely, conscientiously, appropriately he expresses himself, the more obscure the literary (is literature, philosophy- philosophy of literature is there a difference?- discuss.) result is thought, whereas a loose and irresponsible formulation (is formulation like formulae? Logic to be reproduced - he talks below about the "logic of his day") is at once rewarded with certain (I thought he was against "certain" understanding) understanding. It avails nothing ascetically to- avoid all technical expressions, all allusions to spheres of culture that no longer exist (effacement-forget the past as it doesn't matter). Rigor (how is this different than a logic proof?) and purity in assembling words(a literary thing we call style, this assembly of words), however simple the result, create a vacuum (obscure? but if we write in a private language and I mean precise not in the Wittgesteinian sense). Shoddiness that drifts with the flow of familiar speech (this is metaphoric language - mixed as it may be - snow drifts - catch my drift? rivers flow like snot in a snowstorm, or time) is taken as a sign of relevance and contact: people (who are these people? readers?) know what they want because they know what other people(again, who or whom, are these people? Is there some sort of audience here? Should writers be conscious of an audience? For Adorno, for any writer, for whom are we writing for?) want. Regard for the object, rather than for communication( is this a matter of style again?), is suspect in any expression (this colon bothers me, normally I'd want a list but here I'm thinking that he means "that is") anything specific, not taken from pre-existent patterns (allusory, allusions?- how about when a musician uses a sample - not in A's day but there was still copyright and he was in Hollywood), appears (are these preconceived notions?) inconsiderate, a symptom of eccentricity (Adorno's eccentricity?), almost of confusion(so what, misleading? Is there a path to truth? I would think that Adorno would want us to take the path less traveled - engage in the tangle). The logic (Descartes- the equation) of the day ( is a cliché, a shortcut, a preconceived notion, does this need elucidation? I think so - So, what is the logic of the day? a logical fallacy in itself? "Most people believe that"…- I need some facts here), which makes so much of its clarity (I didn't think clarity was the goal here), has naively adopted this perverted notion of everyday speech (whose everyday speech is he talking about? He has already in this text set himself to be the intellectual exile- he writes in German- what else???). Vague (open?) expression permits the hearer (what happened to the reader? Are we in a different aesthetic realm now?) to imagine (I thought the dialectic idea was born out of imagination?) whatever suits him and what he already thinks in any case (these pre-conceived notions, do they only reaffirm what we already know? Can there be no new knowledge?). Rigorous formulation( the kind of show your work conditions, How did I arrive at this?) demands unequivocal (can there be such a thing? There must be gaps in interpretation -I think anyway?) comprehension, conceptual effort, to which people are deliberately disencouraged, and imposes on them in advance of any content a suspension of all received opinions (is effort being replaced by preconceived notions? Think of popular culture- the sitcom- where I know before the first commercial that even though Monica stole her parents' pick-up to go the Guns and Roses show, while her parents forbade her it all works out because Daddy dropped some acid the night before his LSAT, he failed but he learned his lesson as he had to study while his friends went to some party in a farmer's field that you can rent as Woodstock) and thus an isolation (is this preferred by Adorno? I thought the dialectic involved a community of ideas - bouncing and shooting like Disney stars from a 45 cent sparkler?), that they violently resist. Only what they do not need first to understand, they (again, who is this they? Listeners or readers) consider understandable; only the word coined by commerce, and really (really like truly or as a superlative - I mean I really like your work does not mean that I really understand what's going on here) alienated, touches them as familiar [is the familiar bad? Trendy? It reminds me of… for instance, Grant Boland's work reminded me of Atilla Richard Lucaks and not Carravagio so have I misread the work? (Canadian hyper-realism- they are about 15 years apart- I should have asked him when I was at his party)]. Few things contribute so much to the demoralization of intellectuals (I remember in Victoria Park in London, Ontario sitting on a bench (think of Bannerman Park) and some spiky haired teens came by. My mum said (as she will talk to anyone; the apple doesn't fall far from the tree) to one of them that it reminded her of her nieces in the seventies - purple hair and studs and all. I think that the kid was more offended that this sixty year old woman didn't find her offensive but rather quaint - that's not much of a story for the squat- talk about demoralization). Those who would escape it must recognize the advocates of communicability as traitors to what they communicate. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:38:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <009c01c46f2b$46f2ca50$0300a8c0@Schloss> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Having been on the list a long time, I've seen several cycles of attack and defense of Alan's work. I'm almost starting to think of these cycles as somehow *part of* the work. And the recurrence is like some sort of emergent phenomenon keyed to the dynamics of this particular complex system. But Alan could probably pursue an idea like that better than I could... Steve On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Christopher Walker wrote: > David: > > > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is > noticeable is that nobody, for or against, mentions any by name [DB] > > > Three points. > > Sometimes (not always) bordeom is at the threshold of something else: a sign > that you've not yet crossed it. And Cage has said sensible things about the > _usefulness_ of boredom. > > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > making: think (by way of analogy, no more than that) of soap opera, cartoon > strips and suchlike. > > Thirdly, there is a specific reference to a specific text (*The Beginning of > the Book*) in my signature line; so maybe I am an exception to your rule. > But what I also mean by 'intrinsic to the form(s)' is that to cherry pick > the 'best' may be to miss the point. > > > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a > rut of formulaic writing [DB] > > > My picking you up on your own formulaic 'why oh why', my attempt to compare > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' > and my setting *productivity* against the sort of *resentment* a 'consumer' > might feel were part of an effort to address your claim(s) directly: one > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort > of rut; another thing I might be tempted to add is that his _being caught_ > (process) can be extremely subversive. > > CW > _______________________________________________ > > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Matthew Jenkins Subject: Family Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Steve, One of my favorite family poems--and one that students seem to love, or at least be provoked by--is "Kaddish" by Ginsberg. Zukofsky's "A-12" is a family fugue (not to be confused with Family Feud :), and I also think Reznikoff's "Early History of a Writer" in By the Well of Living and Seeing is a great family poem. There's also a few by George Oppen about his wife and daughter throughout his corpus. Of Being Numerous #29 and "Sara in her Father's Arms" from The Materials come to mind. Good luck with your class. Let us know how it goes. Best, Grant G. Matthew Jenkins Director of the Writing Program Department of English University of Tulsa 600 S. College Ave Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:20:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Family Poems In-Reply-To: <1090421465.40fe82d947c1d@cc.utulsa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Steve, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge's "The Four Year Old Girl" is also a great choice. There's a great essay on "mothering" and making poetry titled "To book as in to foal. To son" in Kathleen Fraser's book Translating the Unspeakable: Poetry and the Innovative Necessity. I think of much of "A" as a family poem, and Michelle Leggott's book on Zukofsky's "80 Flowers" shows how that is, in important ways, a family poem. The first half of my book Near or Random Acts (Singing Horse Press, 2004) is in some ways a family poem. Creeley's elegy to his mother (someone else please provide the reference -- I don't have his books with me right now) is another possibility; he has poems in his latest book that are also family poems -- also in the chapbook Yesterdays, published by Chax Press. Charles At 09:51 AM 7/21/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Steve, > >One of my favorite family poems--and one that students seem to love, or at >least be provoked by--is "Kaddish" by Ginsberg. Zukofsky's "A-12" is a >family fugue (not to be confused with Family Feud :), and I also think >Reznikoff's "Early History of a Writer" in By the Well of Living and >Seeing is a great family poem. There's also a few by George Oppen about >his wife and daughter throughout his corpus. Of Being Numerous #29 and >"Sara in her Father's Arms" from The Materials come to mind. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <000d01c46ef9$932e1780$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Poor you - did you apply for a bursary? You might have gone to Incubation for free - As far as my writing goes, it's not for you, that's clear enough. Glad you listed your friends from all over. That really makes a difference. Perhaps we should all do that. How international we are. Alan http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:38:06 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: who deviant? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi there buddy - feel the rush! U being sirius? Ain't no time for setting content of the mind, writing doesn't requirements (content adapted strongly) indeed indeed indeed - well it's 01 for the credit card Policy single an preferences standards need within based indeed indeed indeed - 10 for the diffracted simulation parameter term written United resource collating some are indeed indeed indeed - 11 to log in contribute contrast of needs can To users situations so what Many complex some include must expected corresponding proprietary fantasies so what Collation found generated class updated be information months indeed indeed indeed no churchgoer albeit schizophrenic sensate suds della birmingham lapelled onetime salary yerkes I keep seeing underwater cunt in my dreams swirl bend bart electrode dismal josef nile flux bulky abnormal I keep feeling this liquid veil of cyprine over my no-face I abominate ambitious locatings aquarius is the timely response - galvanic aching spectrograph frequencies, back without significant answer - elk blowback talmud pentagonal so what starlight butch confucian sequential adjectival potentate convex guidepost foldout fletch I keep seeing I keep feeling I keep seeing I keep feeling And you know sight can go far beyond otherwise refractory advice hesitate custodian should yank - coproduct judicature - absent I is there but her she doesn't speak anymore I keep being I keep being the quantic node within the rhizomatic network I keep googling for her doubleheader cutthroat cursive feldman dreyfuss symbiotic-deluxe class-A dead lock gunplay burnout involutory regent puke hypnotic porn images can't give me the needed rest backwood allusion conjunct corroboree - and all the memories, deep - deeper, all into memories' parties moreover impulsive chase ideolect attribution sticktight scrupulosity churchmen waterloo rarefy nodular suggestive telekinesis coexist true edge atlantica deflate indeed indeed indeed the networked outbound cable of my computer crosses seas of despair, luminal despair of the "too-much-light" you know and by tortuous ways goes back here plugged in the back of my spin vertebrae efface lockstep (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:47:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Intelligence Abuse? Comments: cc: L-Poconater@lists.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Did anybody else see this story? Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks on Cuba last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly promoting sex tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.'" hmmmmm . . . So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed from an undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a prize in 2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many undergraduate papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student writer is unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it tuirns out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has nothing to do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about Cuba's advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a remark Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of anybody. The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English course. He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . . That was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote everything." One wonders what Bush's defense would be? at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and practice of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: NEW EMAIL! (redux) NEW PHONE!!!!(for Rachel Levitsky) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello there, Due to technological upgrades, I've had to change my 8 year email provider and 13 year old phone number. Please do change my dats in you email address books and your phone books. !!!!New email: rlevitsky@optonline.net !!!!! Please remove: rchl63@attglobal.net and levitsk@attglobal.net from your addresses. NEW PHONE NUMBER, NEW PHONE NUMBER!!!! is . . . . 718 484 7991 . . . . .718 484 7991 My old number will continue to be connected for incoming calls, but not for very long! Also, please note that my yahoo account: levitskrachel@yahoo.com was, is, and will continue to be good (until Yahoo closes shop). Hope you're all doing alright, Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:17:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was friends with God once, and He's omnipresent. So that makes me international--not to mention--intergalactic. I had some friends who were friends with other gods and Gods and G-ds and they were from all over, too. Wow. Alan Sondheim wrote: > Poor you - did you apply for a bursary? You might have gone to Incubation > for free - > > As far as my writing goes, it's not for you, that's clear enough. > > Glad you listed your friends from all over. That really makes a > difference. Perhaps we should all do that. How international we are. > > Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:24:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: again Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david: more definitions of "nice," fr m-w.com: 5 a : PLEASING, AGREEABLE b : well-executed < nice shot> c : APPROPRIATE, FITTING 6 a : socially acceptable : WELL-BRED b : VIRTUOUS, RESPECTABLE 7 : POLITE, KIND i'm not interested in cheap rhetorical tricks, david. i just say it how it is. i have two children, both of whom create much tiredness in me by the end of the day. if i can come up with any time, any words to write to the list, i think i'm doing pretty well. most nights i don't even have time to read the digest list i receive, just delete, or don't even have a chance to do that, delete en masse later. i happened to read the list that night, and i happen to care about an open forum on the poetics list. so i mustered my words and that's what you got. i heard her voice in my head when i read your post, and that's what i reported, what she would say if she knew of your actions, could understand them in the context of posting, listservs, etc. what i too would--and did--say. i'm not hiding in the words of a three-year-old, just pointing out that even a child has the sense to know what's kind-hearted and what is unpleasantly delivered. you know, you don't have to like alan. you don't have to read his posts. but for the poetics list to function as an inclusive list, we all have to respect each other, at least minimally. i wonder why you didn't directly address the issue of wanting alan to be more present as a person if that's your main issue. you could have written him a private, or public, email that says so. or something. but to slash and slander [defame, malign--m-w.com] him, or his work, for all to see. it's rude, it kills the openness of the forum, and it's just plain unpleasant to have to be around that kind of behavior. your post is the sort of post that makes people "scared of saying so openly" about a whole host of issues. lots of people have had lots of different opinions about alan and his poems, his posts over the years. your back-channel support is not interesting, nor is it surprising. but some of us enjoy the regularity of alan's work, some even enjoy the content, and some just delete... alan, i don't have your number, so i can't call you. but i support your presence here. (haven't we all been through this before?...) and now, off to change a diaper-- jill ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:26:33 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <40FEB34C.1070005@prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Goddamnit! Who the fuck is living on the Klingon subsides i deserve??? disneyland horrendous editor bicycle burnside odysseus matchmake wive bract dishes classic delia important ms colloquium binomial membrane russell countrymen beijing clockwork headquarter continued decant i'm parch chive divulge beloit aggrieve livre anew fourier evelyn May I make it clear that it isn't aimed at and WHICH gods, first? My guts are my only gods. canterbury extension titanic masochism With the refreshing, albeit not too cold - just warm and windy as it should be - hope to read from You soon - but i don't mean, no i surely wouldn't dare meaning to hurry You - please would you mind agreeing, etc etc etc (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ Quoting Brent Bechtel : > I was friends with God once, and He's omnipresent. > > So that makes me international--not to mention--intergalactic. > > I had some friends who were friends with other gods and Gods and G-ds > and they were from all over, too. > > Wow. > > > > > > > Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > Poor you - did you apply for a bursary? You might have gone to Incubation > > for free - > > > > As far as my writing goes, it's not for you, that's clear enough. > > > > Glad you listed your friends from all over. That really makes a > > difference. Perhaps we should all do that. How international we are. > > > > Alan > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:34:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? In-Reply-To: <200407211747.NAA26421@webmail3.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Particularly weird in that while there is certainly "sex tourism" in Cuba (especially on the part of Mexicans and Italians) the prostitutes are severely punished--what organization there is in the industry is among travel agents in the source countries. There are also a lot of casual liaisons between Cubans and foreigners for the length of the latter's stay, the motivation for which is the receipt of luxury items, like restaurant meals or nights on the town (Cubans don't starve, but life is for most pretty close to the bone). The regime discourages this as well, but sporadically. That's the way the regime works in most matters--it's the insecurity of not knowing when the crackdown will come that keeps people in line. The Cuban men and women who engage in these liaisons would resent being called prostitutes. Cuban culture is unusually tolerant of casual sex, anyway. This extends to homosexuality, tho not, unfortunately, officially--lots of opportunistic prosecutions. Mark At 10:47 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: >Did anybody else see this story? > >Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks on Cuba >last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly promoting sex >tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he bragged >about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the >cleanest and >most educated prostitutes in the world.'" > >hmmmmm . . . > >So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed >from an >undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a prize in >2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many undergraduate >papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student writer is >unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it tuirns >out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has >nothing to >do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student >makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about Cuba's >advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a remark >Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of >anybody. > >The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English course. >He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . . That >was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote >everything." > >One wonders what Bush's defense would be? > >at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and practice >of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > --Emily Dickinson > > >Aldon L. Nielsen >Kelly Professor of American Literature >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:34:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan In-Reply-To: <1090434393.40feb559ed20c@imp6-q.free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is entirely amazing, is that before I sent the original message, I had something in there about Klingons, but took it out at the last moment. Bizarre. But yes, there are entire, impoverished slave planets near M-31, whose rulers fund my work, yet deprive their minions of the most basic needs, including burlesque shows. -Brent Cyrill Duneau wrote: >Goddamnit! Who the fuck is living on the Klingon subsides i deserve??? > > > >With the refreshing, albeit not too cold - just warm and windy as it should be - >hope to read from You soon - but i don't mean, no i surely wouldn't dare meaning >to hurry You - please would you mind agreeing, etc etc etc > > > >http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ > > >Quoting Brent Bechtel : > > > >>I was friends with God once, and He's omnipresent. >> >>So that makes me international--not to mention--intergalactic. >> >>I had some friends who were friends with other gods and Gods and G-ds >>and they were from all over, too. >> >>Wow. >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:44:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: unlikely Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And in the case of Cuba, I think many Americans know this. It's one thing to build a hate campaign that relies on America's total ignorance of Islam. It's another thing to wage such a campaign against Cuba. I think many Americans will recognize his statements as the gibberish of the incredibly ignorant. This is one of those gaffes that the big liberal media conspiracy could really pick up on, though I'm betting they won't... -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org -----Original message----- From: Mark Weiss junction@EARTHLINK.NET Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:34:21 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? > Particularly weird in that while there is certainly "sex tourism" in Cuba > (especially on the part of Mexicans and Italians) the prostitutes are > severely punished--what organization there is in the industry is among > travel agents in the source countries. > > There are also a lot of casual liaisons between Cubans and foreigners for > the length of the latter's stay, the motivation for which is the receipt of > luxury items, like restaurant meals or nights on the town (Cubans don't > starve, but life is for most pretty close to the bone). The regime > discourages this as well, but sporadically. That's the way the regime works > in most matters--it's the insecurity of not knowing when the crackdown will > come that keeps people in line. > > The Cuban men and women who engage in these liaisons would resent being > called prostitutes. Cuban culture is unusually tolerant of casual sex, > anyway. This extends to homosexuality, tho not, unfortunately, > officially--lots of opportunistic prosecutions. > > Mark > > > At 10:47 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: > >Did anybody else see this story? > > > >Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks on Cuba > >last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly promoting sex > >tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he bragged > >about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the > >cleanest and > >most educated prostitutes in the world.'" > > > >hmmmmm . . . > > > >So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed > >from an > >undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a prize in > >2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many undergraduate > >papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student writer is > >unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it tuirns > >out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has > >nothing to > >do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student > >makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about Cuba's > >advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a remark > >Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of > >anybody. > > > >The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English course. > >He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . . That > >was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote > >everything." > > > >One wonders what Bush's defense would be? > > > >at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and practice > >of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > > --Emily Dickinson > > > > > >Aldon L. Nielsen > >Kelly Professor of American Literature > >The Pennsylvania State University > >116 Burrowes > >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > >(814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:15:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is about the Miami Cuban vote and nothing else. Bush's operatives probably have told him that he's lost a lot of votes there by curtailing people's ability to visit or help their families on the island. So he's pulling out the stops. He doesn't think he needs your vote or mine. Mark At 11:44 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: >And in the case of Cuba, I think many Americans know this. It's one thing >to build a hate campaign that relies on America's total ignorance of >Islam. It's another thing to wage such a campaign against Cuba. I think >many Americans will recognize his statements as the gibberish of the >incredibly ignorant. This is one of those gaffes that the big liberal >media conspiracy could really pick up on, though I'm betting they won't... > >-- >Jonathan Penton >http://www.unlikelystories.org > > >-----Original message----- >From: Mark Weiss junction@EARTHLINK.NET >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:34:21 -0400 >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? > > > Particularly weird in that while there is certainly "sex tourism" in Cuba > > (especially on the part of Mexicans and Italians) the prostitutes are > > severely punished--what organization there is in the industry is among > > travel agents in the source countries. > > > > There are also a lot of casual liaisons between Cubans and foreigners for > > the length of the latter's stay, the motivation for which is the receipt of > > luxury items, like restaurant meals or nights on the town (Cubans don't > > starve, but life is for most pretty close to the bone). The regime > > discourages this as well, but sporadically. That's the way the regime works > > in most matters--it's the insecurity of not knowing when the crackdown will > > come that keeps people in line. > > > > The Cuban men and women who engage in these liaisons would resent being > > called prostitutes. Cuban culture is unusually tolerant of casual sex, > > anyway. This extends to homosexuality, tho not, unfortunately, > > officially--lots of opportunistic prosecutions. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 10:47 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: > > >Did anybody else see this story? > > > > > >Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks > on Cuba > > >last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly > promoting sex > > >tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he > bragged > > >about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the > > >cleanest and > > >most educated prostitutes in the world.'" > > > > > >hmmmmm . . . > > > > > >So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed > > >from an > > >undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a > prize in > > >2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many > undergraduate > > >papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student > writer is > > >unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it > tuirns > > >out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has > > >nothing to > > >do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student > > >makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about > Cuba's > > >advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a > remark > > >Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of > > >anybody. > > > > > >The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English > course. > > >He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . > . That > > >was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote > > >everything." > > > > > >One wonders what Bush's defense would be? > > > > > >at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and > practice > > >of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > > > > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > > > --Emily Dickinson > > > > > > > > >Aldon L. Nielsen > > >Kelly Professor of American Literature > > >The Pennsylvania State University > > >116 Burrowes > > >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > > >(814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:32:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: unlikely Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not talking about your vote or mine, I'm talking about moderates with a basic familarity of Cuba. The Bushes will take Florida in November -- they took it before with the point of a gun, and we can't/won't stop them from doing the same now. But in the Midwest and Southwest, "conservative" still means "protecting daddy's values," and daddy didn't like lying politicians and knew damn well that Castro isn't a proponent of the sex trade. -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org -----Original message----- From: Mark Weiss junction@EARTHLINK.NET Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:15:06 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? > This is about the Miami Cuban vote and nothing else. Bush's operatives > probably have told him that he's lost a lot of votes there by curtailing > people's ability to visit or help their families on the island. So he's > pulling out the stops. He doesn't think he needs your vote or mine. > > Mark > > > At 11:44 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: > >And in the case of Cuba, I think many Americans know this. It's one thing > >to build a hate campaign that relies on America's total ignorance of > >Islam. It's another thing to wage such a campaign against Cuba. I think > >many Americans will recognize his statements as the gibberish of the > >incredibly ignorant. This is one of those gaffes that the big liberal > >media conspiracy could really pick up on, though I'm betting they won't... > > > >-- > >Jonathan Penton > >http://www.unlikelystories.org > > > > > >-----Original message----- > >From: Mark Weiss junction@EARTHLINK.NET > >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:34:21 -0400 > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? > > > > > Particularly weird in that while there is certainly "sex tourism" in Cuba > > > (especially on the part of Mexicans and Italians) the prostitutes are > > > severely punished--what organization there is in the industry is among > > > travel agents in the source countries. > > > > > > There are also a lot of casual liaisons between Cubans and foreigners for > > > the length of the latter's stay, the motivation for which is the receipt of > > > luxury items, like restaurant meals or nights on the town (Cubans don't > > > starve, but life is for most pretty close to the bone). The regime > > > discourages this as well, but sporadically. That's the way the regime works > > > in most matters--it's the insecurity of not knowing when the crackdown will > > > come that keeps people in line. > > > > > > The Cuban men and women who engage in these liaisons would resent being > > > called prostitutes. Cuban culture is unusually tolerant of casual sex, > > > anyway. This extends to homosexuality, tho not, unfortunately, > > > officially--lots of opportunistic prosecutions. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > At 10:47 AM 7/21/2004, you wrote: > > > >Did anybody else see this story? > > > > > > > >Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks > > on Cuba > > > >last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly > > promoting sex > > > >tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he > > bragged > > > >about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the > > > >cleanest and > > > >most educated prostitutes in the world.'" > > > > > > > >hmmmmm . . . > > > > > > > >So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed > > > >from an > > > >undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a > > prize in > > > >2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many > > undergraduate > > > >papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student > > writer is > > > >unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it > > tuirns > > > >out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has > > > >nothing to > > > >do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student > > > >makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about > > Cuba's > > > >advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a > > remark > > > >Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of > > > >anybody. > > > > > > > >The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English > > course. > > > >He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . > > . That > > > >was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote > > > >everything." > > > > > > > >One wonders what Bush's defense would be? > > > > > > > >at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and > > practice > > > >of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- > > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>> > > > > > > > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > > > > --Emily Dickinson > > > > > > > > > > > >Aldon L. Nielsen > > > >Kelly Professor of American Literature > > > >The Pennsylvania State University > > > >116 Burrowes > > > >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > > > > >(814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Fwd: [Canpoet] Talonbooks Launches Fall Poetry at the Drake Hotel Aug 17 Comments: To: Core-L In-Reply-To: <00c701c46f25$2ab82200$1302a8c0@WorkGroup> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Robert Kasher Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:18:08 -0400 Subject: [Canpoet] Talonbooks Launches Fall Poetry at the Drake Hotel Aug 1= 7 To: Portage Talonbooks is pleased to announce that it will be launching its Fall Poetry Line-up in Canada with a major Toronto happening at the Drake Hotel 1150 Queen St W in Toronto on August, 17th 2004 7:00pm-whenever (hopefully a very late whenever). The event will include readings from bill bisset, Adeena Karasick and Jamie Reid. Marc Glassman from Pages Books will be interviewing them prior to their readings. Blaine Speigel of Blankfoto fame (recently performing at the Om Festival) will provide lighting environments and projections. There will also be music, a showing of the video 'Private God' featuring bill bissett as well as other video material from, about or on our poets. This a great chance to enjoy a Mid-summers' night poetic blow-out at a great location for literary entertainment in Toronto with three poets who are all amazing readers and performers. =20 A little about our poets recent work: =20 narrativ enigma / rumours uv hurricane by bill bissett (0-88922-507-9; 6 x 9; 144 pp; $17.95 CN / $13.95 US) is the newest book from one of Canada's best known and celebrated poets and artists. bill bissett is the author of over 20 books (8 with Talonbooks) and is well known for his ability to capture and mesmerize his audience with playful, energetic, and powerful readings. His most recent book, peter among the towring boxes / text bites (0-88922-464-1), won a BC Book Prize for best poetry in 2003, an award which he had won ten years earlier for inkorrect thoughts in 1993. bissett is also the inaugural recipient of the Milton Acorn People's Poet Award. =20 The House That Hijack Built by Adeena Karasick (0-88922-511-7; 6 x 9; 128 pp; $19.95 CN / $15.95 US) This is another of Adeena's electrifying and visually stunning works of collage and poetry that has made her one of Talonbooks's most critically acclaimed poets. It includes a fascinating 30 page long poetic reconstruction of the Kabbalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah. Her writing has generated great international interest and has been hailed as "an impressive deconstruction of language and meaning" that is "exuberant in [its] cross-fertilization of punning and knowing, theatre and theory." Karasick won a BC Book Prize for M=EAmewars in 1996 and the Bumbershoot Book Prize for Dyssemia Sleaze in 2000. You can check out more about her at www.adeenakarasick.com I, Another. The Space Between: Selected Poems by Jamie Reid (0-88922-512-5; 6 x 9; 156 pp; $17.95 CN / $13.95 US) This is the long awaited new volume of poetry from Jamie Reid, a key figure in the Canadian avant-garde poetry movement in the 1960s. The publication of his first book, The Man Whose Path Was on Fire, in 1967 took the Canadian poetry circle by storm. Reid then took a 20-year hiatus from writing poetry, despite this enormous critical success. He finally returned to the literary scene as the editor of the well respected journal DaDaBaBy and has since authored many other works. This is his first book of collected poems. =20 Other books by these authors from Talon:=20 =20 bill bissett: b leev abul char ak tars 0-88922-433-1 $17.95 CN $13.95 US th influenza uv logik 0-88922-357-2 $17.95 CN $13.95 US inkorrect thots 0-88922-303-3 $17.95 CN $13.95 US th last photo uv th human soul 0-88922-322-X $17.95 CN $13.95 US loving without being vulnerabul 0-88922-372-6 $17.95 CN $13.95 US peter among th towring boxes/ text bites 0-88922-464-1 $17.95 CN $13.95 US scars on th seehors 0-88922-387-4 $17.95 CN $13.95 US Selected Poems: Beyond Even Faithful Legends 0-88922-172-3 $17.95 CN $13.95= US =20 Adeena Karasick: Dyssemia Sleaze 0-88922-434-X $24.95 CN $19.95 US The Empress Has No Closure 0-88922-307-6 $16.95 CN $12.95 US Genrecide 0-88922-370-X $18.95 CN $14.95 US Memewars 0-88922-344-0 $16.95 CN $12.95 US=20 =20 For more information on this event or on Talonbooks please contact: =20 Robert Kasher Director of Sales and Marketing Talon Books rkasher@sympatico.ca=20 725 King St W # 306=20 Toronto, ON M5V 2W9 416-703-7485/fax: 416-703-1513 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:57:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [news] Spanish Anarchist Dies in Prison Isolation Unit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28137.php Spanish Anarchist Dies in Prison Isolation Unit Prison authorities say that Josè Antonio Cano was found after hanging himself with a bed sheet in an isolation unit at the "Modelo de Barcelona" prison in Barcelona, Spain, on June 17th of 2004. His anarchist comrades say it was murder. Spanish Anarchist Dies in Prison Isolation Unit Prison authorities say that Josè Antonio Cano was found after hanging himself with a bed sheet in an isolation unit at the "Modelo de Barcelona" prison in Barcelona, Spain, on June 17th of 2004. His anarchist comrades say it was murder. This was the result of more than 12 years in jail for "common crimes" and of reprisals of every kind on the part of the guards. Especially in the last four years, Josè suffered torture that escalated in the last year: isolation and psychological manipulation. Josè fought until the last moment with all means - included a hunger strike from February 14th to April 6th of 2004. He passed through three hospitals and then back to the Modelo jail, and in none of these places did he receive adequate treatment. Josè, like many Spanish anarchist prisoners, was subjected to the "FIES" (Ficheros de Internos de Especial Seguimiento - Inmates Files for Special Monitoring), extreme isolation units which subject prisoners to total control all day. Their mail and phone calls are monitored, they have few opportunities to stay with other prisoners, their belongings are constantly inspected, and torture is customary. The prisoners who are included in these "Files" are the rebellious ones, those who don't submit to the prison authority. In fact, the FIES were instituted after a series of revolts inside Spanish prisons. In February of 2004, Spanish anarchist Gabriel Pompo Da Silva managed to escape from a FIES unit and prison, and released a statement to his family and comrades. In the wake of Josè's death, his anarchist comrades called for ongoing struggle: "against the prison society, the society of the spectacle, State-Capital, and every authority! For anarchy!" On June 19th, 2004, there was a demonstration held for Josè at the Modelo jail, involving 30 to 40 people and two banners reading "the jails are centers of extermination" and "while there is a single person imprisoned, there will not be freedom." The demonstration lasted about three hours, during which leaflets about Josè's torture were handed out to relatives of prisoners who were coming out of the jail after visits. Prison guards and undercover police heavily surveilled the demonstrators. History (in Spanish) at the Desdedentro website: http://www.nodo50.org/desdedentro/modules.php? op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=638 http://resist.ca/story/2004/7/20/142258/672 news mailing list news@lists.resist.ca https://lists.resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/news ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:21:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A plane flew over here yesterday trailing a banner on which was what looked to be a Sondheim text. Either that, or it was an ad for razor blades. I'm not sure. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Walker" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:01 AM Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > David: > > > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is > noticeable is that nobody, for or against, mentions any by name [DB] > > > Three points. > > Sometimes (not always) bordeom is at the threshold of something else: a sign > that you've not yet crossed it. And Cage has said sensible things about the > _usefulness_ of boredom. > > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > making: think (by way of analogy, no more than that) of soap opera, cartoon > strips and suchlike. > > Thirdly, there is a specific reference to a specific text (*The Beginning of > the Book*) in my signature line; so maybe I am an exception to your rule. > But what I also mean by 'intrinsic to the form(s)' is that to cherry pick > the 'best' may be to miss the point. > > > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a > rut of formulaic writing [DB] > > > My picking you up on your own formulaic 'why oh why', my attempt to compare > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' > and my setting *productivity* against the sort of *resentment* a 'consumer' > might feel were part of an effort to address your claim(s) directly: one > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort > of rut; another thing I might be tempted to add is that his _being caught_ > (process) can be extremely subversive. > > CW > _______________________________________________ > > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed divided parts called / enough others dwell / burning surpassing rivers live one go quickly / marvel shadows against themselves yellowed / grow one diamonds mottled / approaches polish refine less / as / those together / one their nature working proved keep with them oftentimes / just then say / affirm gives limbs plea / war dreams / witch beast / dare given buying grievous against / devil immediately subject matter tarry imperfect / swindlers shear / proof nevertheless loses again / else subtle deceits had enclosed stronger painted birds / sang / moved stories / beasts quick alive think of / "play on , damsels..." environed conduit desire / one / run royalty sound / tower those promised slay desire others / hundredfold slew / openly generous learned well dwell undeniably worth / price waxes / enough same two as / foe two in haste torn to pieces borne every one nearly remedy guard woods / dead choose together it pleases snakes / glide dainty misease dwindled beast / resound company correctly / equipped birds / bough slew recognized eye must slay come what may royal / wondrously adorned nor / think undid shrunken / sleep hear must / proffer named / crowned plea either debating flees / falters pressed pleases appearance Tukulti-Ninurta longer / vanished know injury / reproach might pursue narrowly coal-black / painted torn to pieces natural / made known constantly misfortune same / beast hatched / loudly against Nature quoth one "certainly our own..." birds / drew asunder brood / mingled / Assyria made known listened downward show deceive uncovered plead / refrain judgment writes mouth those / name lightly there / tale it pleases apart pierce song / clay faded / against grass harvested spun / grown cut / scattered imprisoned marvels / move dream webs / humans / wove "adornment against judgment, Tukulti-Ninurta did grind thru dark and dim..." flew together fresh hues splendor / hinder describe pleasing / depths place dispelled / destroyed brimful / makes trial earthly part division / marked against royal / shear confirmed visage / astounded creature / bedecked with voice merriest / eyes tongue unbound burnished / melted praise stammered Semiramis alighted brim was nearer concealed drawn / parted misattended fastened lingered coffers "what was dark glittered away to jewels... MYSTERIUM.." broken lost Nature "words draw away, deprived of days..." dwell / woods at once lie loyally / promised caused / die reverse nothing / unless / see under trial judge lift / domain corpse / colder / sink corrupted garden forebears / misesteem dwindle again / finish lost far / earth / banished apart tumult impatient / brandish profits contention quickly reveal losses conceal / speech remorse welling comfort once the ground removed / where spurning / speech dusts are blended form promise dwell know / fall crowned / grow praise price worth lineage root / displeased kneeling / enfolded many purchase take reward usurpers each one / having five times more head / navel belonging mysterious attached / between wrath / glee raise life's length buy receive crowned please / crowds illustrate kingdoms season arrived work toil / endure market sunrise / undertide together since / found accrued pay bound / work soon / dark waxed summon further / reproach row each one / alike low arrive equate / lifted deceive arrange / reward askew bloom remember / judgment sweated / receive requite repay each /alike speech pours forth cease ever hidden recovery withheld enough reward darkness / marked meat afterward / go dwell pierce / wound passage slow answer / slow certainly deceives acquire realm walked / pierce spot / soiling knock / dwelling promptly open gems / linen earth / sea / stainless crowds placed endlessly unfitting crowned adorned unblemished speak / slaughter shearer / seizes crowds thieves make ready throne fully fitting seals / seams each / creature / mark therefore stain beast trifles corpses Semiramis every / meal found name resounding / unison beasts / obey company / purse purchased earth afar hue / untrue dwelling / within set / throne moon groves / thronged / speak go into / power one / once made dwelling pursue glimpsed / sank alighted adorned / name wall / above description children / following river / from / throne blazed set forth under / moon acquire fruits / soon glimpsed domain suddenly / bound gilded company below / all torn semblance has burned shaken / melted glances laden with intention astray called / to pleasure roused / confusion "tho lifelike and pleasant..." reveal adhere burnt / ashes overcame names own name called / dwells struck down alike _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:29:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Flynn Subject: Re: Intelligence Abuse? In-Reply-To: <200407211747.NAA26421@webmail3.cac.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I imagine his defense is to blame his "vetters." ("Forgive us our vets as we forgive our vetters," he said zealously.)This was my favorite part of the story: On Monday, administration officials acknowledged that they did not have a source for the wording of the president's citation other than Trumbull's paper. A White House spokeswoman defended the inclusion, arguing it expressed an essential truth about Cuba. "The president's point in citing Castro's quote was to highlight Castro's morally corrupt attitude to human trafficking," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said. She pointed to two other instances in which Castro boasted of the education level of Cuba's prostitutes; in neither case was the context a direct promotion of sex tourism. The speech "was vetted the same way all the president's speeches are vetted," Buchan said, declining to provide details. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:47 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Intelligence Abuse? Did anybody else see this story? Yesterday, the Los Angeles Times carried a follow-up to Bush's remarks on Cuba last Friday. Bush had charged that Fidel Castro was brazenly promoting sex tourism to Cuba. "The dictator welcomes sex tourism. Here's how he bragged about the industry," Bush said. "This is his quote: 'Cuba has the cleanest and most educated prostitutes in the world.'" hmmmmm . . . So what is Bush's source for this? Turns out that the quote was cribbed from an undergraduate paper that had been posted to the web after it won a prize in 2001. But, as many of us know all too well about all too many undergraduate papers, the quote was not footnoted in the original and the student writer is unable to produce a source for it. That's bad enough already, but it tuirns out that in the context of the paper itself, the unsourced quote has nothing to do with comments on any sex "tourism" or "industry" anywhere. The student makes it clear in his paper that the quote is a bit of bragging about Cuba's advances in literacy,,,, and at best the "quote" is a paraphrase of a remark Castro made back in 1992 that had nothing to do with the cleanliness of anybody. The student's defense would probably not hold up in a Freshamn English course. He now says: "I don't know whay I don't have a footnote for that. . . . That was before I was in law school and understood that you have to footnote everything." One wonders what Bush's defense would be? at any rate, I think it safe to say that there is a clear pattern and practice of dishonest use of sourcing in the Bush administration -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:30:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: family poems? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You might want to look at Russell Edson's work, plenty of very dark takes on family. Also, Cornelius Eady's book "You Don't Miss Your Water" Lyn Hejinian's "My Life" and Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's "Dictee" especially the Melpomene and Erato sections. Hugh Steinberg --- Steven Shoemaker wrote: > Hey Folks--We had a lot of fun (in my poetry class) with the > love/eros > poems, and I got so many > good suggestions in that category that now I'm looking for > your > recommended "family poems." Actually, the full heading, for > teaching purposes, will be something like > family/identity/trangsgression. If the family is an important > context for > wrestling with issues of identity and relation, I also want to > give space > to poems dealing with the need to break out of "nuclear > family"-centered > relations or > other kinds of conventional role-generating structures. So > once again, > I'm looking for a range of stuff from traditional/conventional > to > experimental/perverse. Thanks in advance... > Steve > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:33:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Ah dear Alan-Revision MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A plane flew over here yesterday trailing a banner on which was what looked to be a Sondheim text. Either that, or it was an ad for disposable razors. I'm not sure. -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:48:56 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Theatre notes Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit New on theatre notes: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com/ Macbeth Macbeth by William Shakespeare, directed by Fiona Blair, with Richard Bligh, Stewart Morritt, Julia Zemiro, Mark Hennessy, Grant Mouldey, Georgina Naidu and Jeannie Van De Veld. The Old Van, at Theatreworks, until August 1 In Macbeth , it is always night: an endless darkness which brings no sleep, a waking dream from which there is no escape. As the critic Jan Kott says, this is history as nightmare: not a grand cyclical mechanism by which power replicates itself, but rather the infection of a murderous insanity. Minefields and Miniskirts Minefields and Miniskirts , adapted by Terence O'Connell from Siobhan McHugh's book, directed by Terence O'Connell, with Robyn Arthur, Tracy Bartram, Debra Byrne, Tracy Mann and Wendy Stapleton. Playbox Theatre, until July 31. I'm sure I'm not the only person who started reading about the Vietnam War again earlier this year, when the word "quagmire" was redefined as a no-go zone and the comparisons with Iraq started getting insistent. The US military were again talking of "winning hearts and minds" while Marines razed foreign villages and got blown up on foreign highways. General Kimmitt was holding his Five O'Clock Follies, and the indie journo was back, as hip as ever, telling the real stories: the art galleries in downtown Baghdad, the graveyards in Falluja, the deadly taxi rides to Baghdad Airport. Blog review Theatre Notes has been going for six weeks! My, how time flies when one is having fun! And I think it's probably a good time to pause and consider what, if anything, the blog has achieved since early June, when I had a rush of blood to my head and began this quixotic enterprise. http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com All the best Alison Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:48:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adeena Karasick Subject: Toronto Launch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Talonbooks is pleased to announce that it will be launching its Fall Poetry=20 Line-up in Canada with a major Toronto happening at the Drake Hotel 1150 Que= en=20 St W in Toronto on August, 17th 2004 7:00pm-whenever (hopefully a very late=20 whenever). The event will include readings from bill bissett, Adeena Karasi= ck=20 and Jamie Reid. Marc Glassman from Pages Books will be interviewing them on=20 stage prior to their readings. Blaine Speigel of Blankfoto fame (recently=20 performing at the Om Festival) will provide lighting environments and projec= tions.=20 There will also be music, a showing of the video =E2=80=98Private God=E2=80= =99 featuring bill=20 bissett as well as other video material from, about or on our poets. This a=20 great chance to enjoy a Mid-summers=E2=80=99 night poetic blow-out at a grea= t location=20 for literary entertainment in Toronto with three poets who are all amazing=20 readers and performers. (The event is free of charge). =20 A little about our poets recent work: =20 narrativ enigma / rumours uv hurricane by bill bissett (0-88922-507-9; 6 x 9= ;=20 144 pp; $17.95 CN / $13.95 US) is the newest book from one of Canada's best=20 known and celebrated poets and artists. bill bissett is the author of over 2= 0=20 books (8 with Talonbooks) and is well known for his ability to capture and=20 mesmerize his audience with playful, energetic, and powerful readings. His m= ost=20 recent book, peter among the towring boxes / text bites (0-88922-464-1), won= a=20 BC Book Prize for best poetry in 2003, an award which he had won ten years=20 earlier for inkorrect thoughts in 1993. bissett is also the inaugural recipi= ent of=20 the Milton Acorn People's Poet Award. =20 The House That Hijack Built by Adeena Karasick (0-88922-511-7; 6 x 9; 128 pp= ;=20 $19.95 CN / $15.95 US) This is another of Adeena's electrifying and visually stunning works of=20 collage and poetry that has made her one of Talonbooks's most critically acc= laimed=20 poets. It includes a fascinating 30 page long poetic reconstruction of the=20 Kabbalistic text the Sefer Yetzirah. Her writing has generated great=20 international interest and has been hailed as "an impressive deconstruction=20= of language=20 and meaning" that is "exuberant in [its] cross-fertilization of punning and=20 knowing, theatre and theory." Karasick won a BC Book Prize for M=C3=AAmewars= in 1996=20 and the Bumbershoot Book Prize for Dyssemia Sleaze in 2000. You can check ou= t=20 more about her at www.adeenakaras= ick.com I, Another. The Space Between: Selected Poems by Jamie Reid (0-88922-512-5;=20= 6=20 x 9; 156 pp; $17.95 CN / $13.95 US) This is the long awaited new volume of=20 poetry from Jamie Reid, a key figure in the Canadian avant-garde poetry move= ment=20 in the 1960s. The publication of his first book, The Man Whose Path Was on=20 Fire, in 1967 took the Canadian poetry circle by storm. Reid then took a 20-= year=20 hiatus from writing poetry, despite this enormous critical success. He=20 finally returned to the literary scene as the editor of the well respected j= ournal=20 DaDaBaBy and has since authored many other works. This is his first book of=20 collected poems.=20 =20 Other books by these authors from Talon:=20 =20 bill bissett: b leev abul char ak tars 0-88922-433-1 $17.95 CN $13.95 US th influenza uv logik 0-88922-357-2 $17.95 CN $13.95 US inkorrect thots 0-88922-303-3 $17.95 CN $13.95 US th last photo uv th human soul 0-88922-322-X $17.95 CN $13.95 US loving without being vulnerabul 0-88922-372-6 $17.95 CN $13.95 US peter among th towring boxes/ text bites 0-88922-464-1 $17.95 CN $13.95 US scars on th seehors 0-88922-387-4 $17.95 CN $13.95 US Selected Poems: Beyond Even Faithful Legends 0-88922-172-3 $17.95 CN $13.95=20= US =20 Adeena Karasick: Dyssemia Sleaze 0-88922-434-X $24.95 CN $19.95 US The Empress Has No Closure 0-88922-307-6 $16.95 CN $12.95 US Genrecide 0-88922-370-X $18.95 CN $14.95 US Memewars 0-88922-344-0 $16.95 CN $12.95 US=20 =20 For more information on this event or on Talonbooks please contact: =20 Robert Kasher Director of Sales and Marketing Talon Books rkasher@sympatico.ca=20 725 King St W # 306=20 Toronto, ON M5V 2W9 416-703-7485/fax: 416-703-1513 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:20:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Color's Torrid Function! Subject: Fwd: RHIZOME_RAW: Appendix M--A Collaborative Online Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Color's Torrid Function! wrote:Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:55:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Color's Torrid Function!" Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Appendix M--A Collaborative Online Poem To: Netbehavior , Rhizome , Webartery , WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA Appendix MA Collaborative Online Poem http://www.lewislacook.com/AppendixM/ this project was originally created in September of last year---unfortunately, my hosting company went belly-up, and I subsequently lost all the files on the server...so what previous contributors have written was lost---but now it is time to start again---and i promise to back the files up, too!!!!! *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:42:32 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: DIA #1 RE: RPT: gil scott-heron--rap's fallen godfather In-Reply-To: <1560489702-1463792126-1090396262@boing.topica.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace, This response will not be an obituary to the soul of a black man unsold to ameriKKKa. God willing, this will be a awake up call to our peoples to never allow our warriors to be DISrespected, used up and tossed aside for not surrendering to the greed machine of massive western plantation hype – not to allow them to be DISSed for speaking the truth -- 4 preserving our Culture by testifying, to his peoples, in this the mad house of amerikkkan atrocities. I thought that was a nice UNobjective piece about a black man who prophesied all this horror, war and rape 30yrs prior -- "B-Movie" -- in his most successful and understandably hard to get jewel "Reflections". It was a jewell that told it like it is and Gil, like most of our warriors, paid the price for speaking on the truth and to his people. Gil wanted and wants to speak of the madness of ameriKKKa and how it has corrupted the world and set an agenda to Disassemble afrika and the afrikan consciousness. Gil did all this before it was trendy to do so, before Chuck D found Farrakhan to put to a beat, before and after white ameriKKKa tossed scrilla at starvin "niggaz" and got them to buy into a false identity of ghetto, semiliteracy and self DIS CONstruction in the massa level pimp industry of hip hop …and “niggaz” still don’t want to admit they’ve been played. ...and when we listen to the flow of Heron, we hear not dated tales on the politricks of the west B.U.T. the cautionary prophesy of what will come (and what has come) if we don't "control our resources". Those resources being natural to the spiritual strength of our peoples -- Gil Scott- Heron is a black man who stands up and doesn't kiss up to the money machine industry of white controlled hip hop = a black man who spoke/speaks his mind in a "Message to the Messenger" and acted like an elder and not a played exrevolutionary trying to cop a ride on the next thang. When Mr Heron flexed his darts about the “Gun”, and the “Bottle” he wasn’t shootin his own people or offering them a liquar add to dull their consciousness. It is evident that in the treacherous times of 'CONvert or die" to the tom machine and it's "present minded individualism" that we have a Black man who is not willing to surrender – even under the slow torture of the western media murderers—cuz Mr Heron is a rhyme warrior; he is a “media assassin” being assassinated by the media for not shuffling for the folk. So as we have seen and read about with our Garveys, our Griots, our Shahadats/martyrs/warriers, our Obsidian Panthers, our Kings, Maliks, our Hueys and Bobbys, our Lumumbas, our Shakur fam. – My people, someone's out to bury that brave black man. ...and we still, like we have done to so many of our bruhs, watch them get buried alive. ...then we holla about gettin brave strong black men and wonder why our youth would rather sellout than be that man. When you got a dissident you make a public spectical of their slow and cruel torture and death. This is done to DIScourage the young, who look on from the sidelines, from taking the same route that this ONE did. Cuz our youth watch speechless as we stand by, en masse, letting the few and feeble levels (as Frances Cress Welsing coined the term) do whatever horrors to another uppity shine. Why would any black boy want to be that man? For, he sees us, like the paleface, use up black men, dis them and toss them aside when “we done feeding”. So, meanwhile, are offered heroes and put up with junkie half wits and sellouts from the 60's, 70's, 80' s and 90's who have never said anything of any intelligence and are glorified for their rehab visits, overdoses, addictions and drunkenness, how much scrilla they have/be given/been “allowed” to have and in the tom section of amerikkka, how many times you got shot and how many niggaz you done took out for white amerikkka = Hip hop/rap = neoplantation? and rhymin house niggaz what's gotz rhythm?. I think Gil/Mr Heron put it well when he said; "...I’ve been living in America all my life. I’m used to doing time in places I don’t want to be! F*** white people and the way they treat you sometimes!” Hon Min Farrakhan spoke on the same point and I paraphrase -- 'i speak you to from a prison not of my making.' http://www.finalcall.com/pressconference/ With the public attack on our warriors like this I guess Gil Scott Heron was right when he said; "the revolution will not be televised". The metaphor of the COINTEL PRO is in full effect? Don't believe the hype about the bruh -- he's only human, a brave one B.U.T, human and this hell can get anyone down B.U.T. the bruh still hasn't taken pride in singing or chanting about how 'he done capped a nigga', bust a b*7$h out' nor has he sold out to the industry = “da man”?. ...if he had, I'm certain, my breddren and sistren, that the article would have spoken from a different "lighter tone" and how what a good bwai that Gil be, son. F$£@ amerikkkanada, the eu, ukkk and isunrael... peace to our Shahadat/Martyrs of the inner and outer battles against in justice Big up to Gil Scott Heron – he spoke his mind and he still got that mind. Like James Baldwin, Mr Heron’s life is a testimony “They will tell you it's hopeless out there on the avenue, But if they really knew the truth, why would they tell you??? And if they look at you like you insane, And they...start calling you "Scarecrow" and say you ain't got no brain Or start...tellin' folks that you've suddenly gone lame, Or that...white folks have finally co-opted your game, Or worst yet, implyin' that you really don't know, That's the same thang they said 'bout us...a long time ago. Remember: KEEP THE NERVE, KEEP THE NERVE, KEEP THE NERVE, KEEP THE NERVE...” …keep your nerve… Stay strong freedome, justice, equality P.E.A.C.E. 1424 Lawrence Y Braithwaite (aka Lord Patch) an author in north amerikkka New Palestine/Fernwood/The Hood BC Kalamu ya Salaam wrote: >Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Amazing Diet Patch >The fastest - Easiest way to lose weight! Try it now FREE! >http://click.topica.com/caacoW6bUrD3ob6rZrpb/MyDietPatches >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>RPT: gil scott-heron--rap's fallen godfather > ===================================== > > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7948-1181297,00.html > Rap's fallen godfather > James Maycock > London > The veteran campaigning singer Gil Scott-Heron is still tormented by > his demons > > GIL SCOTT-HERON looks grizzled, slightly stoned. “I’m addicted to > creating,” he mutters. > “I use other things from time to time.” The iconic musician, poet, > novelist and singer is > being his characteristic self: delightful, difficult, witty and > combative during an interview > for a BBC Two documentary I’m involved with. Asked about his recent > jail sentence for > drugs, he explains: “It wasn’t nothin’. I’ve been living in America > all my life. I’m used to > doing time in places I don’t want to be! F*** white people and the way > they treat you > sometimes!” > > He is on parole and looks older than his 54 years. His teeth are a > mess and when he lifts > up his black leather Kangol hat, exposing a shock of ash-white hair, > he seems to age > 15 years in a second. > > In his youth Scott-Heron was prolific, an Afro-American renaissance > man. He composed > righteous soul-jazz classics such as Winter in America and > Johannesburg. He sang in a > beautiful, elegiac baritone and also wrote poetry and prose. > Throughout the Seventies, > with his writing partner Brian Jackson, he fought to motivate the “me > generation” with > the altruism of someone raised during the “we generation” of the civil > rights era. > > “Information is what we needed most of all,” Scott- Heron says. > “That’s what we tried to > deliver.” He also addressed addiction in The Bottle and Angel Dust. > > By 1982, at the age of 33, Scott-Heron’s CV included 14 album > releases, two published > novels and a volume of poetry. But then he hit a brick wall. After a > scuffle with his record > label in the early Eighties, he withdrew into drug dependence, > surfacing for sporadic tours. > Certainly his arrests and prison time over the past 15 years diverted > attention away from > his increasing musical deficit. His chronic cocaine/crack addiction > still baffles most friends > and devotees. > > The following day we’re on Harlem’s main drag, 125th Street, where it > cuts across Lenox > Avenue, as in the title of Scott-Heron’s debut album, Small Talk at > 125th and Lenox. He is > noticeably more relaxed. People recognise him; he sings an old Joe > Bataan song and is an > agreeably compliant interviewee. After an hour, he’s feeling hungry. > The man who wrote > the media/conglomerate-satirising classic The Revolution will not be > Televised, asks for two > McDonald’s cheeseburgers. > > Scott-Heron tells us about the Afro-American tradition of the spoken > word. “A lot of times > people can say in poems things they can’t say to you personally, but > they need to get > that information across. I don’t think poetry will ever lose its place > in the community. I think > it’s more important than ever.” > > Indeed, it’s because of tracks like The Revolution will not be > Televised that Scott- Heron is > often described as the “godfather of rap”. The Village Voice > journalist Greg Tate compares > him to Chuck D, of Public Enemy. Both, he argues, “could reach the > masses, rock the > boulevard”. In their respective eras they combined the political, the > innovative and the > populist. “Hip hop becomes a fulfilment of Gil’s own ambitions,” Tate > believes. > > If Scott-Heron is a hip-hop godfather, it’s the more conscious form of > rap he’s helped to > create. His one studio album in the past 20 years, Spirits (1994), > included Message to the > Messengers, an indictment of the immorality in much of hip-hop’s > lyrics. “Whether they like > it or not, (rappers) represent our community,” he says. “They can make > some changes if > they’re brave enough to.” Like much of what he’s written, the message > is still pertinent > today. > > A day later in SoHo, we prepare to film Scott-Heron’s gig at SOB’s. > His congregating > musicians and the club’s staff are agitated. He doesn’t always turn > up. At 7pm, a whisper > circulates — he’s in the building. That night both sets are > captivating. There’s a queue > down the block for the second show. > > Abiodun Oyewole, an original member of the Last Poets, explains > Scott-Heron’s lasting > popularity. “Gil is a chef. He cooks some mean meals, something we can > live off.” Another > part of his attraction, according to the rapper and actor Mos Def, is > that he embodies > “the elder statesman and the man on the corner at the same time”. > > After an amiable goodbye, Scott-Heron walks out of the club and into > the New York night. > We don’t film him again. Back in London, we hear news of more gigs > planned and his > increasingly positive approach to post- prison life. But less than a > month later, at the end > of October 2003, on his way to a gig in Chicago, Scott-Heron is > arrested at La Guardia > airport, New York. He’s charged with possession of a controlled > substance and detained at > Rikers Island Penitentiary in the middle of the East River, between > the airport and the Bronx. > In December, he is released on bail, with a court date expected in > January 2004. He is sent > back to Rikers, serving a jail sentence until last month, when he’s > “released on his own > recognisance”. > > Today, Scott-Heron is back on the Harlem block. It’s more than a year > since he was > released from his first prison sentence. Then, his fans and friends > were optimistic about > his rehabilitation. Now, a year later, those positive feelings have > faded. Where will he go > now? That’s entirely up to Gil, a complex, irascible, enigmatic, > inherently sweet man. > > Originals: Gil Scott-Heron, directed by Don Letts, is on BBC Two > tonight (July 16, 2004) > at 11.35pm > > > >Your free subscription is supported by today's sponsor: >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Get a Great Credit Card for You Today >You can find a credit card to fit your credit needs. >All types of credit cards -- 0% APRs, Rewards, & Bad Credit. >http://click.topica.com/caacpgdbUrD3ob6rZrpg/411Web >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >############################################# >this is e-drum, a listserv providing information of interests >to black writers and diverse supporters worldwide. >e-drum is moderated by kalamu ya salaam (kalamu@aol.com). >---------------------------------- >to subscribe to e-drum send a blank email to: >e-drum-subscribe@topica.com >--------------------------------------------- >to get off the e-drum listserv send a blank email to: >e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com >---------------------------------------------- >to read past messages or search the archives, go to: >http://www.topica.com/lists/e-drum > >--^^--------------------------------------------------------------- >This email was sent to: Ishaq1823@telus.net > >EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrD3o.b6rZrp.SXNoYXEx >Or send an email to: e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com > >For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: >http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER >--^^--------------------------------------------------------------- > -- {\rtf1\mac\ansicpg10000\cocoartf102 {\fonttbl\f0\fswiss\fcharset77 Helvetica;} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;} \margl1440\margr1440\vieww9000\viewh9000\viewkind0 \pard\tx560\tx1120\tx1680\tx2240\tx2800\tx3360\tx3920\tx4480\tx5040\tx5600\tx6160\tx6720\ql\qnatural \cf0 \ \f0\fs24 --\ -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:03:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Moving On, by Alan Greenspan Subject: Ah, Alan...etc. Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I am afraid Alan's poems do bore me - I know they are dead because I can't I can beat Alan in being unemployed, btw, I am and get about 2500 pounds a Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told lawmakers Tuesday, meaning the super-low (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Subject: You gotta try this thing Alan Sondheim Alan Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan anything. Let's begin with Alan's poems, I'll preface my emphasising yet 'extremely snide'. I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay for your own Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Am I the only 'original' member left after Alan? I still have most of Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan and defense of Alan's work. I'm almost starting to think of these cycles system. But Alan could probably pursue an idea like that better than I > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Dear Alan Sondheim, inequivalent alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the refuge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the refuge there's no lack of candor in so much of the world's destruction. for example, the oceans are deluged by carbon dioxide, ice caps are melting, and neither global warming nor evolution are theories. where does that leave us? every day we witness the extinction of species, starvations, cruel tortures of humans and other animals. every day, humans bow down in fetid worship. every day commands increase the population; it remains true that over half of all humans who have ever lived, are alive today, and well on the way to violent deaths. we are faced with rulers who do not care, who will reap the amputees before the final cataclysm. the earth sours, we are all the worse for it, and it is of course our making. now we begin the enormous journey of cosmic pollution; we shall, however, collapse of our own accord, before too much damage can occur elsewhere. on earth, we testify to fury, hyperssxed bodies waiting for the next predictable onslaught of orgasm. the earth is absorbed in our reproductive decay, we are all colonists, some of us in bitter pain and despair. slaughter comes from within and without; genocide is universal, specicide, as whole worlds disappear. the great whales, lemurs, amphibia, raptors, all are disappearance; no longer can grandeur or cuteness save them. the medicinal value theory is a hoax, designed to prolong the death agonies of ourselves and those we slaughter. nothing saves nothing; of all, we are the greatest in our absence, and the most destructive. one can only call, as we have, over and over again, for suicide as the least harmful of outcomes, but it must be mass suicide. with a blink of an eye, our rulers are gone; with a blink of an eye, government is disabled, and the rest of us crawl and immolate any thing in our paths, another form of jockeying for useless power. i would gladly give this up, i will return to the manipulation of my avatars and puppets, which remain mute, as if swallowed in their silence. there is something to the screen that begs ontology. it is the refuge of the damned. to bow are the are carbon _ occur are no neither candor and are much our leave world's puppets, of example, to humans are the ever carbon _ own caps there's neither candor is evolution much any leave world's and extinction example, something day, are is who carbon _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:41:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: UN-FUCKING-STOPPABLE - FROZEN TEARS II - THE BOOK IS COMING - WORLD DOMINATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JOHN RUSSELL Presents =46ROZEN TEARS II THE SEQUEL LAUNCH/EVENTS AT: SKYLIGHT BOOKS READINGS BY: MARK BEASLEY, DENNIS COOPER, TRINIE DALTON AND BENJAMIN WEISSMA= N SUNDAY JULY 25 - 5pm ONWARDS 1818 N. Vermont Avenue Los Angeles, CA 90027 Tel: (323) 660-1175 www.skylightbooks.com JACK HANLEY GALLERY READINGS BY: MARK BEASLEY, DODIE BELLAMY, KEVIN KILLIAN AND CASEY MCKINNEY. MUSIC BY WINDOW WINDOW =46RI JULY 30 - 6-9pm 395/389 VALENCIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94103 TEL: 415.522.1623 www.jackhanley.com TEXTS BY: KATHY ACKER, MIREILLE ANDR=C8S, ANTONIN ARTAUD, DOMINIQUE AUCH, NED BALDWIN, STEPHEN BARBER, GEORGES BATAILLE, BAUDELAIRE, JOHN BEAGLES, MARK BEASLEY, DODIE BELLAMY, ALISSA BENNETT, SIMON BILL, JESSE BRANSFORD, R.A.BRANSFORD JR ESQ, PAUL BUCK, BONNIE CAMPLIN, ALINE BOUVY/JOHN GILLIS, DENNIS COOPER, JOHN CUSSANS, TRINIE DALTON, SUE DE BEER, BROCK ENRIGHT, FELIX ENSSLIN, DAN FOX, ROBERT GARNETT, PAUL GREEN, MATTHEW GREENE, FERNANDO GUERREIRO, PIERRE GUYOTAT, ILANA HALPERIN, GLEN HELFAND, JACQUES HENRIC, RACHEL HOWE, BEN KALEB BRANTLEY, SETH KELLY, KEVIN KILLIAN, CHRISTOPHER KNOWLES, JENNIFER KRASINSKI, CEDAR LEWISOHN, LORENZO DE LOS ANGELES III, RACHEL LOWTHER, DAVE MARTIN, KARL MARX, CASEY MCKINNEY, GEAN MORENO, J.P. MUNRO, PAULINA OLOWSKA, SIMON O'SULLIVAN, ARTHUR OU, DAMON PACKARD, MIKE PAR=C9, GRAHAM PARKER, WOTJEK PUSLOWSKI, ADAM PUTNAM, IAN RAFAEL TITUS, EUG=C8NE SAVITZKAYA, ERIC SCHNELL, AMY SILLMAN, ALLISON SMITH, JOANNE TATHAM/ TOM O'SULLIVAN, DANIEL TOROP, GENYA TUROVSKY, BANKS VIOLETTE, BENJAMIN WEISSMAN, IVAN WITENSTEIN, THOM WOLF =46URTHER DATES: HISTORIC WENDOVER AIRFIELD MUSEUM, SALT LAKE DESERT - tba INFO: www.frozen tears.co.uk LOOKING ISNT THE SAME AS READING UNLESS IT IS. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:57:52 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: the refuge In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Alan Your poem reminded me of this one, which I wrote recently - All the best Alison Beasts The beasts are retreating. They are sliding into the dusk, into the supple light of vanishing trees, into the glue of dreams. All their strangeness wavers behind wire, between the four sides of a screen, odourless and deathless. The beasts stare out of bleached pages, enclosed at last, and the zoos are silent, except when parrots and keepers conduct their weird orchestrations. Panic flicks in those slotted eyes but the sadness is only ours. Police hunt corpses in rubbish dumps, a pregnant mother and child. Beneath the surface, submarine cries burst the ears of whales. Coral is leached to stone by the stripped sunlight and houses crouch by the shore, awaiting the wave prophets see in the distance. In forests that glow at night, there are boars and wolves whose futures mutate daily. There is much that is unknown as always and even more that now will never be understood. The cedar forests of Lebanon are tinder dry and bears starve on the wet tundra. In the depths of night there may be a phone call we dare not answer or a cry in the street which makes the hair rise on the back of our necks. They will not come back, something is happening at the backs of our eyes, behind the reflections, and billboards shout in the silence, delivering words that in a more innocent age we thought were ours, as pixelating dolphins surf the endless waves. Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:54:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: the refuge Comments: To: Alison Croggon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Wow, this has a similar structure, and resonates; we lived in Miami for nine months, and there was _this_ feeling, almost exactly. Tonight we attended a Sierra Club meeting in which two 'whistle-blowers' from the EPA spoke; it was heartening and hopeless at the same time - - Alan http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:17:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: the refuge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Residence In the beginning, Chaos...space no human race no trace of humankind's mayhem inflicted upon the place. =20 Eons and then In the end, Chaos...space no human race no trace of humankind's mayhem remains upon the place. =20 Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alan Sondheim=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:33 PM Subject: the refuge the refuge there's no lack of candor in so much of the world's destruction. for example, the oceans are deluged by carbon dioxide, ice caps are melting, and neither global warming nor evolution are theories. where does that leave us? every day we witness the extinction of species, starvations, cruel tortures of humans and other animals. every day, humans bow down in fetid worship. every day commands increase the population; it remains true that over half of all humans who have ever lived, are alive today, and well on the way to violent deaths. we are faced with rulers who do not care, who will reap the amputees before the final cataclysm. the earth sours, we are all the worse for it, and it is of course our making. now we begin the enormous journey of cosmic pollution; we shall, however, collapse of our own accord, before too much damage can occur elsewhere. on earth, we testify to fury, hyperssxed bodies waiting for the next predictable onslaught of orgasm. the earth is absorbed in our reproductive decay, we are all colonists, some of us in bitter pain and despair. slaughter comes from within and without; genocide is universal, specicide, as whole worlds disappear. the great whales, lemurs, amphibia, raptors, all are disappearance; no longer can grandeur or cuteness save them. the medicinal value theory is a hoax, designed to prolong the death agonies of ourselves and those we slaughter. nothing saves nothing; of all, we are the greatest in our absence, and the most destructive. one can only call, as we have, over and over again, for suicide as the least harmful of outcomes, but it must be mass suicide. with a blink of an eye, our rulers are gone; with a blink of an eye, government is disabled, and the rest of us crawl and immolate any thing in our paths, another form of jockeying for useless power. i would gladly give this up, i will return to the manipulation of my avatars and puppets, which remain mute, as if swallowed in their silence. there is something to the screen that begs ontology. it is the refuge of the damned. to bow are the are carbon _ occur are no neither candor and are much our leave world's puppets, of example, to humans are the ever carbon _ own caps there's neither candor is evolution much any leave world's and extinction example, something day, are is who carbon _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Fw: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moving On toward the deviants by Alone Green/ spanner-like bad news casting no not you song written or are you not related to so(u)nd he i'm singer no song writtener they think chewing it is easier so they chew it fast like i chew now tho fast itself too takes time choke come up with their own for4m of plagiarizing them selves perhaps like as l;ong as it's plausible it don't have to be possible epic i am bic brave unjust so why dick around with another catastrophe just a postrophe just to win a trophy un nice lyen-ticely what ever happened to her she was such a big star did race play a factor or her relation to miles long the bitche's brew end up jumped because i reit-simply because lists d(t)rains so much juicy-creato one must lie steal stay awake collage manuever appr(o)p(o)riate it spring up Subject: Ah, Alone in the deer a head light like a deer in the head Subject: Re: Ah deer Alone in the headlights Subject: Re: Ah dear like a bad 11 pc band playing their own haphazard compositions and it just magnifies how much the revolutionary really knows about coltrane's music and spirit not much i would conjecture tho ya could've fooled them couldn't fool me andering move over roll over why bother talk is especially cheap at this hr but why start now it's the shock of surprise we value and none of us are ever surprised but many of are always in shock and love to shock ninnies and fail to surprise live a real life i don't i am afraid alone & bored me - i know they are dead because I can't speak face to face w/them anymore or on the phone now that i have e-mail maybe i will try that tho i can beat All one in being emptyed, b&w, i am about 250 pounds and definitely should stop eating fast food tho the only one i eat is kfc but now that i know they beat and kick and throw their chickens against the wall and more than likely make them perform oh why even go into it here tho the pot pie's as good as anywhere even in merry ole anle land reserved w/ those secret ingredients of the kernel's or chairman's all in an effort to greenifiy spanglish speaking so and sos told lawmakers Tuesday, meaning the super-low so's ends reply isn't smart/ass enough at all. it's construed active --> WRONG.) 'tho thhink construction of a book inflicted in wits art whores...' (nAil an Sound he i'm me he says no matter what i writes or thinks it's that spinach again) Subject: You got a trying road kill here a lone a loan Sand he i'm alone Subject: Re: A deer in the headlights alone anything. let's begin with alone's poems, i'll preface by 'em phasing yet 'ex streamly id. i just got bored thru the head by its horn the dear the deer ole deer by all an' pose - he poses a lot of them when it's dark on the road froze there like my compari son with mac d's till folds, A B X Z landing seems to me to be caught in an attack on too many of 'em anyway those works and persons just to make hay for your own Subject: Re: a deer Alone on the highway at night runs across the road it's dark headlights frozen hit splat moral: should one get out and move it take it shoot it will one then get hit froze in summer even in summer nuisance (and all our replies aren't smart at all. lit cons instructive.) think of a brook the deer is drinking pollution is its conflicted author... ( A S i de) am i the only origin remember cleft after ? i still have most of my teeth the deer is down in nara the deer are wild and shabby they wander all over the town in winter maybe they freeze Subject: Re: Ah deer Alone alone i just get born like poems - he protests a lot of theme and what is hat the spots a let down of hem steams to meet in trin sick tot then form(s) alone this comparable width abcd's still folds, all and seems to meet and to be caught in a headlight what you felt to be the 'incarceration' imposed on you frozen there what else could you feel with ll and pact ants thing would never say is that alone is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort of thing of a bloody deer inflicted by its author...' (all anSwer on dime) Subject: Re: A deer alone and defenseless of all and out of work. almost starting to think of these cycles systems as part of its habitat. but all in all it could probably pursue an idea like that better than i > i just got bored by antler's poems - he lost a lot of them and what is the sound of night > That posts along the road that winds alot of themes seem to go unchallenged me insinc to the farm(s) around these parts grazing in the meadows during the day like draught alone is > my companion with Macestillholes, bland seems to me to be fraught in a freize > what you felt then 'incineration' composed in your filth alone 'act out' > thing i would never say is that the deer is 'caught' ( upstate) in some sort > of trap like hypnotized in love in fear think look inflict alone you are its author... (alone Sound he i'm) deer alone Sad / him, deer inequivacably alone ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: DIA #1 RE: RPT: gil scott-heron--rap's fallen godfather Comments: To: ishaq1823@telus.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit gil(l) scott free junk on uptown corner it is always winter here even in the heat of this cruel summer sun always winter always d.c. when the vein point it's gun at you and your shoes are left behind always breathing in the toxins of the ghetto flowers the white brown high gloss in the little glacine bag another petal drops the dropper fills w/ life another life is gone ( as expected ) an- other pr o shoes is left be/ h in d .. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit screen nite screen 3:00...3:00...3:00...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit durn rite dem iraquis 4:00.......hmmmmm....drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:48:26 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok then Alan, let's take this poem as a case in point. Obviously it's something to do with me as it quotes recent posts of mine, we also have the director of the Federal Reserve and a touch of physics plus avatars thrown in. I can honestly say, and this is not a matter of not being 'nice', that I have no idea of what it means. This isn't a matter of indulging in personal attacks, I'm not flaming you, but the poem conveys nothing to me - I derive the impression of being presented with an argument without content. I imagine it is supposed to be some kind of satirical take on my remarks and that is why they are quoted but I am guessing here. If you do find something risible in what I said then you need to make a case, it's not enough to just quote my words back David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:03 AM Subject: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan Moving On, by Alan Greenspan Subject: Ah, Alan...etc. Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I am afraid Alan's poems do bore me - I know they are dead because I can't I can beat Alan in being unemployed, btw, I am and get about 2500 pounds a Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told lawmakers Tuesday, meaning the super-low (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Subject: You gotta try this thing Alan Sondheim Alan Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan anything. Let's begin with Alan's poems, I'll preface my emphasising yet 'extremely snide'. I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay for your own Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's constructive.) 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Am I the only 'original' member left after Alan? I still have most of Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan and defense of Alan's work. I'm almost starting to think of these cycles system. But Alan could probably pursue an idea like that better than I > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of them and what is > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to me to be caught in a > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you with Alan's 'actants' > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' (steady state) in some sort > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan Sondheim) Dear Alan Sondheim, inequivalent alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:01:30 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: the refuge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sounds very interesting. Any documentation on the web? Karl-Erik > >Tonight we attended a Sierra Club meeting in which two 'whistle-blowers' >from the EPA spoke; it was heartening and hopeless at the same time - > >- Alan > > >http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ >http://www.asondheim.org/ >http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: the refuge-re: Allison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison: Some very good lines here. And it reminds me of my "Zoography": http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Zoo/zoo-t.htm Which is to say that there is a collective poetry unconscious. Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:57 PM Subject: Re: the refuge > Hi Alan > > Your poem reminded me of this one, which I wrote recently - > > All the best > > Alison > > Beasts > > The beasts are retreating. They are sliding > into the dusk, into the supple light of vanishing trees, > into the glue of dreams. All their strangeness > wavers behind wire, between the four sides of a screen, > odourless and deathless. The beasts stare out of > bleached pages, enclosed at last, and the zoos > are silent, except when parrots and keepers > conduct their weird orchestrations. > Panic flicks in those slotted eyes but the sadness > is only ours. Police hunt corpses in rubbish dumps, > a pregnant mother and child. Beneath the surface, > submarine cries burst the ears of whales. > Coral is leached to stone by the stripped sunlight > and houses crouch by the shore, awaiting the wave > prophets see in the distance. In forests > that glow at night, there are boars and wolves > whose futures mutate daily. There is much that is unknown > as always and even more that now will never > be understood. The cedar forests of Lebanon > are tinder dry and bears starve on the wet tundra. > In the depths of night there may be a phone call > we dare not answer or a cry in the street > which makes the hair rise on the back of our necks. > They will not come back, something is happening > at the backs of our eyes, behind the reflections, > and billboards shout in the silence, delivering words > that in a more innocent age we thought were ours, > as pixelating dolphins surf the endless waves. > > > > > > Alison Croggon > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:28:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: DIA #1 RE: RPT: gil scott-heron--rap's fallen godfather Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DID HE DIE? (i hadn't heard this yet....) C ---------- >From: Steve Dalachinksy >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: DIA #1 RE: RPT: gil scott-heron--rap's fallen godfather >Date: Wed, Jul 21, 2004, 10:16 PM > > gil(l) scott > free > junk > on uptown > corner > it is always > winter here > even in the heat of > this > cruel > summer sun > always > winter > always d.c. > when the vein > point > it's gun at > you > and your shoes > are left > behind > > always breathing > in > the toxins of > the ghetto flowers > the white brown > high gloss in the little glacine > bag > > another petal drops > the dropper > fills w/ > life > another life is > gone > ( as expected ) > an- > other pr o shoes is left > be/ h > in d .. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:53:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Matthew Jenkins Subject: Re: family poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I forgot one of my favorite family poems that is a bit more recent: the 1995 book-length _Woman without Experiences_ by Patricia Dienstfrey. grant G. Matthew Jenkins Director of the Writing Program Department of English University of Tulsa 600 S. College Ave Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Why artists are rallying against Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BusinessWeek isn't typically the sort of publication one would expect to see a piece such as this, especially by one of its editors. It's worth noting tho that the current regime is so radically right wing that moderate corporatists have perfect reason to feel alarmed. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jul2004/nf20040721_0688_db02 8.htm Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:16:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: family poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthology of 40 poems edited by Stephanie Strickland, published by Slapering Hol Press: What's Become of Eden: Poems of Family at Century's End (not exactly sure of the subtitle) Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:16:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chuck Stebelton Subject: Crayon #4 Release Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MYOPIC POETRY SERIES -- a weekly series of readings and poets' talks Myopic Books in Chicago -- Sundays at 7:00 / 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue ************************************************************************ *************** ************************************************************************ *************** **July 25 - Crayon #4 Release Reading at Buddy / 1542 N. Milwaukee Avenue** featuring Bob HARRISON, William FULLER, Lisa SAMUELS, Jesse SELDESS, Kerri SONNENBERG, and Stacy SZYMASZEK ************************************************************************ *************** ************************************************************************ *************** Upcoming Events August 8 - Dodie Bellamy August 15 - Daniel Borzutzky and Terri Kapsalis September 5 - Sarah Peters and Tony Hooper http://www.lumpen.com/buddy/yes.html http://www.myopicbookstore.com/poetry.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:50:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: reviews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have a couple of reviews online: Pink Steam the book in the SF Chronicle: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/a/2004/07/18/RVG6C7JC0M1.DTL If you have problem opening the link, make sure there's no spaces. Or go to the book review section: http://www.sfgate.com/eguide/books/ Since it's in this week's issue, there's a link to it on that page. Also, Pink Steam, the art show tribute at the Castro branch of the public library is an editor's pick on the Art Forum website. http://www.artforum.com/picks/place=San%20Francisco#picks7206 Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:44:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Editors, Tarpaulin Sky" Subject: Call for Work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tarpaulin Sky http://www.tarpaulinsky.com is reading submissions of poetry, prose, and trans-genre work for issues V2n4 Fall 2004 and V3n1 Winter 2005. Submissions may be sent in hardcopy or via email. Please see our updated guidelines at http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/guidelines.html for details. Future issues will include new work by Rebecca Brown, Paul McCormick, and Juliana Spahr, among others. Past contributors include: BETH ANDERSON, author of _The Habitable World_ and _Overboard_. Recent work has appeared in New American Writing, 26, and Five Fingers Review. Her poems are included in _The Best American Poetry 2003_ and _An Anthology of New (American) Poets_. AIMEE BENDER is the author of 2 books, _The Girl In The Flammable Skirt_ and _An Invisible Sign of My Own_. She's had short fiction published in Harper's, GQ, Granta, Paris Review, and Mcsweeney's. JENNY BOULLY'S book _The Body_ was published in 2002 by Slope Editions. Her work has been anthologized in _The Best American Poetry 2002_, _The Next American Essay_, and _Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present_. JULIE CARR lives in Oakland, California where she is a pursuing a Ph.D. in English Literature from UC Berkeley. Her book _MEAD: An Epithalamion_ is forthcoming from UC Georgia Press in the Fall. Other sections from MEAD are in recent or forthcoming issues of American Letters and Commentary, 3rd Bed, The Canary, Pool, Xantippe, and LIT. JOSHUA COREY is the author of _Selah_ and his poems have appeared in Fence, Boston Review, LIT, Jubilat, slope, and other journals. JAMEY DUNHAM'S prose poems have appeared in Sentence, Paragraph, Key Satch (el), Fence, Boston Review, and ACM, among other journals. His poem "An American Story" was included in the anthology _Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present_. DANIELLE DUTTON'S work has appeared or is forthcoming in Fence, NOON, 3rd Bed, Pompom and the Denver Quarterly. KARI EDWARDS is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New Langton Art's Bay Area Award in literature (2002), author of _iduna_, _a day in the life of p._, _a diary of lies - Belladonna #27_ by Belladonna Books, and _post/(pink)_. edwards' work can also be found in _The Best American Poetry 2004_ (fall, 2004), _Experimental Theology, Public Text 0.2._, Seattle Research Institute (2003), _Blood and Tears: Poems for Matthew Shepard_, Painted Leaf Press (2000), Aufgabe, Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh's Ear, Call, Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics, Pom2, Shearsman, and The International Journal of Sexuality and Gender Studies. ELENA GEORGIOU is the author of _Mercy Mercy Me_, and co-edited, with Michael Lassell, the anthology _The World in Us_. She is the recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts poetry fellowship, Astraea Emerging Writers Award, and Lambda Literary Award. Recent work appears in The Cream City Review, Gargoyle, Bloom, Spoon River Review and elsewhere. BARRY GIFFORD'S most recent books are _The Rooster Trapped in the Reptile Room: A Barry Gifford Reader_ and _American Falls: The Collected Short Stories of Barry Gifford_. His books of poetry include _Replies to Wang Wei_, _Flaubert at Key West_, _Ghosts No Horse Can Carry_, and others. Gifford's novels include _Wyoming_, _The Sinaloa Story_, _Night People_, _Wild at Heart_, and others. MICHAEL GOTTLIEB is the author of more than a dozen titles, including _Lost and Found_. His other recent books include _Gorgeous Plunge_, _Careering Obloquy_, and _More Than All_, a collaboration with Ted Greenwald. One of the central first-generation Language poets, Gottlieb helped edit the seminal Roof magazine through the 80s. LOUIS JENKINS' poems have been published in a number of literary magazines and anthologies, including Kenyon Review, Paris Review and American Poetry Review. His books of poetry include _An Almost Human Gesture_, _All Tangled Up With the Living_, _Nice Fish: New and Selected Prose Poems_, _Just Above Water_, and _The Winter Road_. Two of his prose poems were published in _The Best American Poetry 1999_. MARY A. KONCEL 's work has appeared in The Massachusetts Review, Denver Quarterly, The Journal, The Prose Poem: An International Journal, and _No Boundaries: Prose Poems by 24 American Poets_. Her full-length collection of prose poems, _You Can Tell the Horse Anything_, was published by Tupelo Press. JOAN LARKIN'S poetry collections include _Housework_, _A Long Sound_, _Sor Juana's Love Poems_ (co-translated with Jaime Manrique), and _Cold River_. Twice winner of the Lambda Literary award for poetry, she co-founded the independent press Out & Out Books as part of the feminist literary explosion of the 1970's and co-edited the ground-breaking anthologies _Amazon Poetry_ and _Lesbian Poetry_ (with Ellly Bulkin) and _Gay and Lesbian Poetry in Our Time_ (with Carl Morse) in the 70's and 80's. Her anthology of coming-out stories, _A Woman Like That_, was nominated for Publishing Triangle and Lambda awards for nonfiction in 2000. JEFFREY LEVINE'S first book, _Mortal, Everlasting_, won the 2000 Transcontinental Poetry Award from Pavement Saw Press and was nominated for a Pushcart Prize. His second book, _Sanctuaries_, is due out in the fall from Red Hen Press. Individual poems and groups of poems have won the Larry Levis Prize from the Missouri Review, the first annual James Hearst Award from North American Review, the 2001 Kestrel Prize and most recently, the 2001 Mississippi Review Poetry Award. His work appears in Ploughshares, Antioch Review, Poetry International, Virginia Quarterly Review, Quarterly West, Barrow Street, Yankee Magazine, and The Journal, among others. Jeffrey Levine is Editor-in-Chief of Tupelo Press, an independent literary press located in Dorset, Vermont. NORMAN LOCK'S collection of linked fictions, _A History of the Imagination_ will be published in August 2004 by Fiction Collective 2. _Joseph Cornell's Operas and Émigrés_, originally published by elimae books, were brought out by an Istanbul publisher in March 2004 as part of its New World Writing Series. A novella, _Marco Knauff's Universe_, was published in 2003 by Ravenna Press. Recent fiction appears in 3rd Bed #9. BARBARA MALOUTAS is a winner of the New Issues first book in poetry prize in 2003 for _In A Combination of Practices_. JACK MARSHALL'S tenth book, _Gorgeous Chaos; New & Selected Poems, 1965-2001_ was published in November 2002 by Coffee House Press. GORDON MASSMAN has published in numerous journals across the US, Canada, and the UK (Harvard Review, Antioch Review, Prism International, Windsor Review, Fire, Georgia Review); his third small press book, _The Numbers_, is available from Pavement Saw Press. _Gronk: Selected Poems by Gordon Massman_ will be published by Six Gallery Press in 2004. FRED MURATORI'S poetry collections are _The Possible_ and _Despite Repeated Warnings_. His poems and prose-poems appear in New American Writing, LIT, Denver Quarterly, and Rattle, among others, and he regularly contributes poetry criticism to American Book Review, Boston Review, and Rain Taxi. HEIDI PEPPERMINT'S first collection, _Guess Can Gallop_, was selected by Brenda Hillman for the 2002 New Issues Poetry Prize and is forthcoming. Her poems have appeared or will soon appear in Denver Quarterly, HOW2, La Petite Zine, LIT, 3rd bed, Slope, Unpleasant Event Schedule and elsewhere. KATHRYN RANTALA'S work appears, among other places, in New Orleans Review, Iowa Review, Notre Dame Review and many places on the web including archipelago, elimae, poems niederngasse, Eleven Bulls, failbetter, Locus Novus. Her book, _Missing Pieces_, is available from the publisher, Ocean View Press. SELAH SATERSTROM'S work has appeared most recently in 3rd Bed, Monkey Puzzle, and in the Seattle Research Institute's second text, Experimental Theology. Her novel, _The Pink Institution_, was recently published by Coffee House Press. She lives in Asheville, North Carolina. JANE SPRAGUE publishes Palm Press and curates the West End Reading Series in Ithaca, NY. Her art reviews are regularly published in the Ithaca Times. Her poems and reviews are published in Jacket, How2, Barrow Street, Tinfish, Xcp: Cross Cultural Poetics, ecopoetics, VeRT, and Columbia Poetry Review, among other magazines. THOMAS SWISS'S collaborative New Media poems appear online in such journals as Postmodern Culture, as well as in museum exhibits and art shows such as the New York Digital Salon . He is a professor of English and Rhetoric of Inquiry at the University of Iowa, editor of the Iowa Review Web--a journal of new media writing and art--and author of two collections of poems, _Rough Cut_ and _Measure_. His forthcoming co-edited book is on the subject New Media Poetics. JOHN WARNER writes fiction, humor, and non-fiction, and is co-author (with Kevin Guilfoile) of _My First Presidentiary: A Scrapbook of George W. Bush_. His work has appeared in 3rd Bed, Zoetrope All-Story Extra, and Salon, among others. John teaches in the Department of Communication at Virginia Tech University and is editor of McSweeney's Internet Tendency, and as such, is one of the co-editors of _Created in Darkness by Troubled Americans: The Best of McSweeney's, Humor Category 1998-2003_ coming out in August of 2004 from Knopf. Happy Summer, Editors, Tarpaulin Sky http://www.tarpaulinsky.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:35:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: THE 2004 BAY AREA SUMMER POETRY MARATHON... In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Only two more dates left in THE 2004 BAY AREA SUMMER POETRY MARATHON... Come celebrate innovative poetry with us this Saturday in the Mission! ______________________________________ SATURDAY, JULY 24 at The Lab, 2948 16th Street, SF (16th & Mission BART stop: one block east on 16th) ** AFTERNOON ** 12 noon ? 4pm Stefani Barber, Laynie Browne, Mary Burger, Del Ray Cross, Steve Dickison, Robert Gluck, Yedda Morrison, Jocelyn Saidenberg, Cynthia Sailers ** EVENING ** 6:30pm ? 9:30pm Dodie Bellamy, Gillian Conoley, Patricia Dienstfrey, Edward Foster, Kathleen Fraser, Leslie Scalapino, Chris Stroffolino ______________________________________ SATURDAY, AUGUST 21 at 21 Grand, 449 23rd Street, Oakland (19th Street BART: four blocks up Broadway, then turn left onto 23rd) ** AFTERNOON ** 12 noon ? 4pm Jim Behrle, Sean Finney, Joanna Fuhrman, Roxi Hamilton, Rodney Koeneke, Hazel McClure, Rusty Morrison, Mike Sikkema, Brian Teare, Elizabeth Treadwell ** EVENING ** 6:30pm ? 9:30pm Norma Cole, Gloria Frym, Robert Hass, Lyn Hejinian, Brenda Hillman, Michael Palmer, Bin Ramke ______________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:50:16 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: the refuge-re: Allison In-Reply-To: <004801c46ff7$552e00e0$63fdfc83@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maybe it's living in the same world, Joel... Thanks for the url, I liked the poem. Best A On 23/7/04 12:22 AM, "Joel Weishaus" wrote: > Alison: > > Some very good lines here. > And it reminds me of my "Zoography": > http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Zoo/zoo-t.htm > > Which is to say that there is a collective poetry unconscious. > > Best, > Joel Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blogs: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:43:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AMBogle2@AOL.COM Subject: Gil Scott-Heron Comments: cc: bruce@veerybooks.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce, I remember seeing Gil Scott-Heron in Madison in the early 80s in a show of his own brand of one-man multi-performance. Rita and I were volunteer ushers at the Union Theater and could sign up for anything we wanted to see. .................................................................. METROPOLITAN DESK | July 10, 2001, Tuesday A Ravaged Musical Prodigy At a Crossroads With Drugs By AMY WALDMAN (NYT) words Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 1 DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF WORDS - The judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan stared sternly through her glasses at the defendant, whose body trembled. ''You have been around this planet for a long time, and you've been using drugs for a fairly substantial amount of time as well,'' she said. ''What I want is for... ................................................................... You can buy the article at the NYTimes website; I remember reading it in the paper when it appeared. The interview passages were fairly extensive, as I recall. Gil Scott-Heron (or the reporter) said in the article that he had written a 500-page description of himself as not-a-drug-addict. There was the topic of confining him in a treatment hospital, part as punishment and part as medical treatment for a condition he said he didn't have. I remember thinking that a literary defense/interpretation of his position might necessarily be long, written. AB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: again Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jill, I can see where you are coming from, and comprehend your viewpoint. Let's try to give you a picture of my existence - last night I found myself talking to a midget who was trying to a pastiche of Swinburne's 'The Garden of Proserpine' because he'd been challenged to do so as a forfeit by a lady he met at an s&m do in Birmingham on Sunday night. The penalty was being put in a cage. Tonight I went out for a last orders drink at the local pub and was waylaid on my way back by our local hermit who came out for once and wanted to tell me how much he hated e.e.cummings. Things like these happen to me all the time, I get somewhat paranoid as a result, one starts to feel that the universe is a joke on oneself. All the Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Stengel" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:24 PM Subject: again Ah dear Alan david: more definitions of "nice," fr m-w.com: 5 a : PLEASING, AGREEABLE b : well-executed < nice shot> c : APPROPRIATE, FITTING 6 a : socially acceptable : WELL-BRED b : VIRTUOUS, RESPECTABLE 7 : POLITE, KIND i'm not interested in cheap rhetorical tricks, david. i just say it how it is. i have two children, both of whom create much tiredness in me by the end of the day. if i can come up with any time, any words to write to the list, i think i'm doing pretty well. most nights i don't even have time to read the digest list i receive, just delete, or don't even have a chance to do that, delete en masse later. i happened to read the list that night, and i happen to care about an open forum on the poetics list. so i mustered my words and that's what you got. i heard her voice in my head when i read your post, and that's what i reported, what she would say if she knew of your actions, could understand them in the context of posting, listservs, etc. what i too would--and did--say. i'm not hiding in the words of a three-year-old, just pointing out that even a child has the sense to know what's kind-hearted and what is unpleasantly delivered. you know, you don't have to like alan. you don't have to read his posts. but for the poetics list to function as an inclusive list, we all have to respect each other, at least minimally. i wonder why you didn't directly address the issue of wanting alan to be more present as a person if that's your main issue. you could have written him a private, or public, email that says so. or something. but to slash and slander [defame, malign--m-w.com] him, or his work, for all to see. it's rude, it kills the openness of the forum, and it's just plain unpleasant to have to be around that kind of behavior. your post is the sort of post that makes people "scared of saying so openly" about a whole host of issues. lots of people have had lots of different opinions about alan and his poems, his posts over the years. your back-channel support is not interesting, nor is it surprising. but some of us enjoy the regularity of alan's work, some even enjoy the content, and some just delete... alan, i don't have your number, so i can't call you. but i support your presence here. (haven't we all been through this before?...) and now, off to change a diaper-- jill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [news] Mohawk's of Kanehsatake calling for renewed support MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28172.php Mohawk's of Kanehsatake calling for renewed support The struggle for self-determination in Kanehsatake is far from over and the Mohawk community is asking for your support. In solidarity with the 284-year struggle against colonialism by the Mohawk Peoples of Kanehsatake, a newly formed coalition has come together to, in part, facilitate the transportation of outside supporters into the Pines area of Kanehsatake where community members have been maintaining nightly guard against police incursion into their territory. Mohawk's of Kanehsatake calling for renewed support The struggle for self-determination in Kanehsatake is far from over and the Mohawk community is asking for your support. The struggle for self-determination in Kanehsatake is far from over and the Mohawk community is asking for your support. In solidarity with the 284-year struggle against colonialism by the Mohawk Peoples of Kanehsatake, a newly formed coalition has come together to, in part, facilitate the transportation of outside supporters into the Pines area of Kanehsatake where community members have been maintaining nightly guard against police incursion into their territory. For the past 6 months, since January 12th, 2004, the peoples of Kanehsatake have successfully resisted a federally sponsored, politically motivated, militarized invasion of their community. They have put their lives and freedom on the line in order to stop the formation of a police state headed by Grand Chief James Gabriel, whose leadership itself was imposed through a federal court injunction. Twenty-four Kanehsatake community members face charges of participation in a riot and forcible confinement of police officers. Resistance on the part of community members has meant, in part, camping out, night after night over the past three months, in the Pines of Kanehsatake. Community and outsider presence in this pivotal geographic area is necessary if bloodshed in the community is to be prevented and federal and provincial sponsored aggression is to be stopped. The task of maintaining guard is exhausting, and community members continue to request and appreciate the physical presence of people from outside of the area in the Pines alongside them. Support is especially necessary now, given that the community of Kanehsatake faces great uncertainty as the Band Council mandate has ended and elections for the new council are still two months away. James Gabriel has proclaimed that he and his council allies will continue to rule, with Quebec Native Affairs backing. Gabriel "needs" law-and-order - his criminal police force - to be implemented in the community before he start election campaigning he says. Due to these circumstances, and the uncertainty of the situation, the community of Kanehsatake is asking for supporters to come and stand with them through this transition period. Bring your tents, some food, and any recording devices such as video cameras, cameras, mini-discs, etc. Solidarity with Kanehsatake means standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the community and sharing in the burden of their struggle. If you can't make it to Kanehsatake, call all Canadian & Quebec officials involved in this ploy. Demand they respect the Mohawk peoples' right to determine an end to this crisis, and their political, economic and policing future. To connect with other people and groups planning to go to Kanehsatake or helping organize transportation for supporters, e-mail soutien-k-org@lists.taktic.org Getting to Kanehsatake: Hudson route There is a ferry from Hudson to Oka that runs everyday from 7h00-22h00 except Sunday when it starts at 8h00. The ride is 10 minutes it takes you to Oka, from where you continue straight to Highway 344, take a left and up "the hill" into Kanehsatake. Cost: 7.00$ / car or truck, 2.00$ / bike, 1.50$ / walk-on To get to Hudson - By Train (AMT http://www.amt.qc.ca): Cost: 6$ each way or 24$ for 6 tickets Mon-Friday only. The train leaves leaves Lucien L'Allier: 17h20, Vendome: 17h26 and arrives in Hudson at 18h30. Return to Montreal from Hudson 6h58 (useless for return from Kanasehtake if the ferry doesn't start until 7h00) - Driving: Take the 40 west and you'll see signs for Hudson and the ferry to Oka, exit 26. Train to Deux-Montagnes route: - The Train for Deux-Montagnes leaves from Gare Central mon-fri 6h45 - 00h30, Sat 9h00 - 00h30, and Sun 10h00 - 00h30. *If you have a bike you have to leave from the Canora station (7300, chemin Canora; cross with Jean-Talon West). Cost: 6$ each way or 24$ for 6 tickets. Driving: From the autoroute 40, take the 13 north (exit 60) OR 15 north to the 640 west until the end and then the 344 which goes straight through Oka and into Kanehsatake. BACKGROUNDER Grand Chief James Gabriel of the Kanesatake Band Council is a politician dazzled by powers given by Quebec & Canada no matter the cost to his community. People in Kanehsatake are fed up with Canada & Quebec's attempts to use Gabriel to undermine Mohawk sovereignty, culture, land rights and economies. Learning about Gabriel's deals with government only through press releases, the community's been excluded from decision-making - a cornerstone of the consensus-based Mohawk culture. With Gabriel's help, Canada has nearly accomplished its goal of subordinating Kanehsatake's sovereign national status to that of a municipality through Bill S-24, the "Kanesatake Land Based Governance Act". Canada's January 12th attempt at imposing totalitarian rule over Kanehsatake - by funding Gabriel's privately-controlled, 60-person police force - left community members no place in the affairs of their own community. Or so Gabriel hoped. Since January 12th, Kanehsatake residents have demonstrated their opinions through militant resistance, and successfully stopped attempts at outside invasion and political interference. In 1994, leaked documents proved Canada was planning a 6,000-troop military invasion of Mohawk communities producing and selling their own cigarettes. One report stated the need to "target the Indian's claim to the inherent right of inter-tribal trade with sister Mohawk communities and the native run tobacco manufacturing industry as a whole". With all other funds tightly controlled by Department of Indian Affairs & Band Council, the Mohawk tobacco trade is the one autonomous source of income enabling Mohawk families and social services to sustain themselves. It enables Mohawks to organize and fight Canada's attempts to assimilate and control them. The growing economic strength of Mohawk Nations threatens the implementation of Canada's colonial agenda, it's not just about lost tax revenues. Canada's January 12th "extraordinary" police operation, and April 1st Tripartite Policing Agreement (which transfers control of policing in Kanehsatake to Canada, Quebec & Gabriel) both aim to crack down on this Mohawk economy not, as they claim, "organized crime". Chief Gabriel stated he wants his police to "cut the head off his opposition". Gabriel's opposition is Quebec & Canada's too. This is why our governments are so invested in Gabriel's leadership they've been making deals excluding half the Chiefs on Council and the whole of the community. This is why Quebec & Canada maintain Gabriel is "the sole legitimate authority for Kanehsatake". In the context of 21st century colonialism, Canada rewards native "leaders" willing to place their communities under Canadian and provincial jurisdiction. Last year's First Nations Governance Act was defeated by the unified efforts of Indigenous communities across Canada. Now the strategy is to implement the legislation quietly, community-by-community, in order to avoid collective resistance. Once again Kanehsatake is drawing national attention to Canada's colonial agenda by standing up to all the government can throw at them. They are determined to not allow Gabriel's collusion with the state to undermine their rights, nor set a precedent for the assimilation of other Indigenous Nations. URL: http://resist.ca/story/2004/7/21/153255/393 _______________________________________________ news mailing list news@lists.resist.ca https://lists.resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/news ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:26:10 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron Comments: To: AMBogle2@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: <1ab.26ec236c.2e319d17@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII url for the article? thanks On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 AMBogle2@AOL.COM wrote: > Bruce, I remember seeing Gil Scott-Heron in Madison in the early 80s in a > show of his own brand of one-man multi-performance. Rita and I were volunteer > ushers at the Union Theater and could sign up for anything we wanted to see. > > .................................................................. > > METROPOLITAN DESK | July 10, 2001, Tuesday > > A Ravaged Musical Prodigy At a Crossroads With Drugs > > By AMY WALDMAN (NYT) words > Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 1 > > DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF WORDS - The judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan > stared sternly through her glasses at the defendant, whose body trembled. > ''You have been around this planet for a long time, and you've been using drugs > for a fairly substantial amount of time as well,'' she said. ''What I want is > for... > > ................................................................... > > You can buy the article at the NYTimes website; I remember reading it in the > paper when it appeared. The interview passages were fairly extensive, as I > recall. Gil Scott-Heron (or the reporter) said in the article that he had > written a 500-page description of himself as not-a-drug-addict. There was the > topic of confining him in a treatment hospital, part as punishment and part as > medical treatment for a condition he said he didn't have. I remember thinking > that a literary defense/interpretation of his position might necessarily be > long, written. > > AB > -- --------------------------- Newfoundland Tories put culture in a COMA http://www.donotpadlocktherooms.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron In-Reply-To: <1ab.26ec236c.2e319d17@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ....And you, sitting around here like a knot on the wall, saying:'I 'm going to love these folks no matter how much they hate me.'No,you need a revolution." --Malik Shabaaz;Message to the Grass Roots DIA: blacks and our depression #3 There has been essays written concerning Blacks and depression and one of the effects of this depression having come the residual effects of African Americans and slavery. Not all of us have been slaves or from a slave background nor were we raised in the US psychic landscape but we have been assaulted by it. DIA: blacks and our depression #3 A note from Fernwood/The Hood/New Palestine ============================== by Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite An author in North America There has been essays written concerning Blacks and depression (one of which is by Dalani Aamon entitled "Blacks and Depression") and one of the causes of this depression having come the residual effects of the African Americans Experience starting with slavery. Not all of us have been slaves or from a slave background nor were we raised in the US psychic landscape but we have been assaulted by it. A great deal of us are Diasporic and so the effects of the affected African American psychology has invaded our domes. The US racism and the Canadian supremacy has had a damaging impression on our lives and mental health. I'm am certain that there are those who suffer from chemical imbalance which render them privy to mood swings on various scales. However, the state of dread and downpressor inwhich most of us have to exist offers us little moments of true being and I'm afraid prolonged exposure to the madness and twisted logic of North America only brings more pain and collapse. We must realize that mental illness in Black people, on our continent, is not tolerated. Not by the medical profession nor our own peoples. When it comes to Blacks, especially Black men with mental illness, we have not progressed from the Restoration period and William Hogarth's depiction of Bedlam. Our Bedlam can be either the mess of North America, the ghetto, or the state found in the etched imprints in our mentals (minds). We have become driven by this madness as did Tom Rakewell (an 18th century playa) who, disassociated with his home, becomes enveloped in the underlying message of greed and status orientated London, England (or as is refered to as being a "demented Britannia"). However, Rakewell, has little knowledge and absolutely no overstanding of the true makeup and motivation of the libertine rakish society inwhich he falls into and is seduced by. He only sees what is considered successful and acceptable and then follows through hoping that --no -- thinking that this will make him and remake him in the eyes of the new society. Rakewell's efforts lead him to riches, poverty and then madness. We, as Black people, whether ghetto or yuppy or middle-class, are caught up in this disassociation of place and contexte. We cannot, although we may front on the matter, make sense of the cognitive dissonance that is this demented America. It as if we are children or men caught in an abusive household each one of us or as a collective have fallen into the familial role of those in an abusive home' The perfect one, The peace keeper, The clown, The rebel But no matter how much we struggle in our roles we still fail to achieve the overstanding and remove ourselves from the situation. The house must fall. We must cease to help it exist with all it's secrets and past abuse. Our presence fuels it. It legitimizes it. The abusers knows, far more than we ever will, under these circumstances, how to push every button and manipulate us with status, money, power and maybe even a kind word and genteel touch here and there. Right now, and for a longtime, a world has been fighting back to end this abuse or to stop the abuser from incorporating them in the vicious circle of this madhouse. We, as Black peoples, don't seem to overstand this -- fully. Which is why we assist in the assaults or close our doors (selves) to our own. We point fingers and take pleasure watching each other fall. We invent new philosophies and transforms ancient faiths to fit them into the demented American landscape. First on the list of blaim is each other and then comes this metaphysical white man (a devil or snake or yacob). But very little is done to actualize our anger and redemption except when it comes to attacking each other (the lost, the mental slaves, the 85, the uncivilized, the gutter negro, the country nigger, the 10, the sellout...) we have many names for the understandably confused and depressed Black peoples and we are swift to attack each other and kill each other, especially in the most cruel of fashions, and that is in the willful destruction of a human beings aspiration -- our spirit our Black souls. It would be easier for us to achieve peace and overstanding of the system of downpressor than it would for us to overstand each other and accept out weaknesses and strengths and victories. So we hunt for leaders to lead us (because of slavery and this endless Moses metaphor). We choose dead heroes (silent and well printed posters on college walls or in house holds. Maybe a PBS documentary they offer us during a now infamous Black history month). Last we follow puritan inspired ranting fascist who distort philosophies and faiths for the purpose of power and control. But what we lack is a revolution of all our own. Where Blacks can finally be peoples with all the faults and greatness that most people know over this planet and are willing to starve and die for. If you look at it this way who wouldn't be depressed. And if a Black man has a mental illness then it will certainly become magnified to the point inwhich it becomes madness -- as William Carlos Williams wrote of the Black peoples of North America "true products of America go crazy". This pandering to abuse and the constant blaiming of each other is a suicide. It is a slow and cruel suicide as most true suicides are. Forget what you've heard and what you think or read or have been taught. A true suicide is not a call for help and the failed attempts are not failures. They are practice sessions to insure that when the time comes and the right mixture is found that it will have the perfect effect/affect -- it has become the a hard Science combing proper elements. It has, unfortunately become true M.A.D.ness = Mathematics of the African Diaspora. That would be the North American obsession with the crossing, the passing, the otherside, what most humans call simply death. For it is in death, we are taught, once by this physical and now metaphysical slavemaster and now by each other that we truely achieve rest, perfection, peace and blessings and sometimes greatness. Of course we have the right to sing the Blues. But I'm afraid that it has been optioned and copyrighted for pub houses and biker soundtracks. But so has every diasporic invention of art. So that would make anyone sad or as Rod Serling once wrote a line in "Requiem for a Heavyweight", "don't it just make you want to lay down and die." ...or can it Bee, as Lauryn Hill once wrote, "Die for me/you said you'd die for me/live for me/why don't you live for me". The future is ours if we remain what Marcus Garvey once called "The Nation" and we truely believe -- in each other = the original peoples, with all our faults; cease to submit to the effects of hypocrites/munafiquns in this "demented America". 1424 Lawrence Y Braithwaite (aka Lord Patch) New Palestine/Fernwood/The Hood BC "The Fire Next Time" do the math... AMBogle2@AOL.COM wrote: >Bruce, I remember seeing Gil Scott-Heron in Madison in the early 80s in a >show of his own brand of one-man multi-performance. Rita and I were volunteer >ushers at the Union Theater and could sign up for anything we wanted to see. > >.................................................................. > >METROPOLITAN DESK | July 10, 2001, Tuesday > >A Ravaged Musical Prodigy At a Crossroads With Drugs > >By AMY WALDMAN (NYT) words >Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 1 > >DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF WORDS - The judge in State Supreme Court in Manhattan >stared sternly through her glasses at the defendant, whose body trembled. >''You have been around this planet for a long time, and you've been using drugs >for a fairly substantial amount of time as well,'' she said. ''What I want is >for... > >................................................................... > >You can buy the article at the NYTimes website; I remember reading it in the >paper when it appeared. The interview passages were fairly extensive, as I >recall. Gil Scott-Heron (or the reporter) said in the article that he had >written a 500-page description of himself as not-a-drug-addict. There was the >topic of confining him in a treatment hospital, part as punishment and part as >medical treatment for a condition he said he didn't have. I remember thinking >that a literary defense/interpretation of his position might necessarily be >long, written. > >AB > > > -- {\rtf1\mac\ansicpg10000\cocoartf102 {\fonttbl\f0\fswiss\fcharset77 Helvetica;} {\colortbl;\red255\green255\blue255;} \margl1440\margr1440\vieww9000\viewh9000\viewkind0 \pard\tx560\tx1120\tx1680\tx2240\tx2800\tx3360\tx3920\tx4480\tx5040\tx5600\tx6160\tx6720\ql\qnatural \cf0 \ \f0\fs24 --\ -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:01:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron (another view) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Gil Scott-Heron was my creative writing teacher when I was an undergraduate. I had always tried to avoid creative writing classes, but they were required of all English majors at Federal City College in the 70s -- so, I got the list of available teachers and nearly jumped out of my seat when I saw Gil Scott-Heron's name there -- You have to remember this was at the time when, in addition to the radio success of "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," Gil had three LPs out, a book of poems, and two novels -- and this guy was only about a year older than I was at the time -- I signed up for the course after hearing his beautiful WINTER in AMERICA, the album he did in between his early ABC sides (produced by Bob Thiele) and the later Arista records after he'd signed with Clive Davis -- He was a great encouragement to me early on, and drugs had not yet gotten so much of a grip on him that they were interfering with his abilities to function -- that came in the 80s -- He was also hooked up with Brenda Sykes, a gorgeous young actress who has pretty much disappeared from film in the intervening years, and they had a daughter, to whom some of his later works are dedicated -- Look for the film of his concert at DC's Wax Museum for a sense of Gil at his best -- it's out on VHS & DVD -- fortuantely, nearly all of his recordings (except for the very late stuff) have been reissued in recent years -- the voice & the approcah to singing remain fairly unchanged throughout -- but it's a voice I'd dearly like to hear back on the scene again -- the novels are also available again -- you might take a look at the first one if you're curious to see what sort of detective novel gets written by a precocious 19 year old -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: Re: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan In-Reply-To: <000301c46ff2$aad570a0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear David Bircumshaw: It's odd that you surmise that Alan Sondheim in his "Moving On, by Alan Greenspan" is attempting, and failing, to make an argument, specifically failing to satirize you and your remarks. He's pretty clearly using your initial remarks about him, and subsequent posts in the thread you thus inaugurated, as grist to create another one of his endless run of puzzling, thought-provoking, consternating thingies, his "sondheims" as someone on this list once put it. When Alan wants to MAKE SOMETHING PERFECTLY CLEAR he tends to do just that--like in his short post about how his poems were clearly not for you, David, which then went on to fool around with your contention about being even poorer than he. But in the "sondheim" called "Moving On, by Alan Greenspan" we are presented with you and alan and pro alan & anti alan as forces of a curious scrimmage and storm...and we can set the words against each other interestingly: e.g. Alan as allegedly "caught", Alan as probably best able to "pursue" a certain thought...but why Greenspan, yes why Greenspan... Is it just Alan Sondheim randomly throwing another Alan into the mix to force us to construct meanings, or are there more intentions in his mind than that, I wouldn't know...he throws Greenspan in right after evoking the competition about who's more unemployed, so maybe A.G. is summoned as a ruling class common enemy of both sondheim and bircumshaw...and Greenspan is said to provide very cryptic answers at press conferences, so one could think of an interesting contrast of different types of crypticity, Greenspan's obsfucation as political strategy, and Sondheim's elusiveness to create his "machines made of words". And other meanings I could construct, but enough already. _______________________ So. I wanted to say also that contra what you have said there is evidence on this list that Alan does engage in discussions if you start a good one. -- "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > Ok then Alan, let's take this poem as a case in > point. Obviously it's > something to do with me as it quotes recent posts of > mine, we also have the > director of the Federal Reserve and a touch of > physics plus avatars thrown > in. I can honestly say, and this is not a matter of > not being 'nice', that I > have no idea of what it means. This isn't a matter > of indulging in personal > attacks, I'm not flaming you, but the poem conveys > nothing to me - I derive > the impression of being presented with an argument > without content. I > imagine it is supposed to be some kind of satirical > take on my remarks and > that is why they are quoted but I am guessing here. > If you do find something > risible in what I said then you need to make a case, > it's not enough to just > quote my words back > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet > & Painting Without Numbers > > http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Sondheim" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:03 AM > Subject: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan > > > Moving On, by Alan Greenspan > > > Subject: Ah, Alan...etc. > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > I am afraid Alan's poems do bore me - I know they > are dead because I can't > I can beat Alan in being unemployed, btw, I am and > get about 2500 pounds a > Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told lawmakers > Tuesday, meaning the > super-low > (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's > constructive.) > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Subject: You gotta try this thing Alan Sondheim > Alan > Alan Sondheim > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > anything. Let's begin with Alan's poems, I'll > preface my emphasising yet > 'extremely snide'. I just get bored by Alan's poems > - he posts a lot of them > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to > me to be caught in a > attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay > for your own > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's > constructive.) > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Am I the only 'original' member left after Alan? I > still have most of > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of > them and what is > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic > to the form(s) Alan is > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to > me to be caught in a > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you > with Alan's 'actants' > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' > (steady state) in some sort > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > and defense of Alan's work. I'm almost starting to > think of these cycles > system. But Alan could probably pursue an idea like > that better than I > > > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot > of them and what is > > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me > intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems > to me to be caught in a > > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on > you with Alan's 'actants' > > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' > (steady state) in some > sort > > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Dear Alan Sondheim, > inequivalent alan > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:13:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AMBogle2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/22/04 6:56:32 PM Central Daylight Time, khehir@CS.MUN.CA writes: > url for the article? > > thanks > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 AMBogle2@AOL.COM wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/10/nyregion/10GIL.html We saw James Baldwin at Union Theater in Madison in those days, too. He came on to the stage wearing a purple beret, dressed to the nines. And his face lit up, and he read, slyly. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: violation fabric MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed violation fabric understand the rush of creation exhilaration of new times Laurie Anderson used to speak of having fun it was fun to listen to her there are darker periods in human history a name for these, violation fabric but be not afraid, the videos are peaceful something to think about, why are they such exaltation why is all writing not a sign or simulacrum of violence as theory might have it, but a sign of weak action and peaceful thought? here i am occupied with the keyboard, doing nothing else drinking a little coffee maybe, television on in the background azure watering and repotting plants "Audubon's Wildlife" to my left, "A Comic History of England" to my right not to mention Silberschatz, Galvin, and Gagne, Operating System Concepts anyway i'm not killing anyone, i'm just writing i'm caressing the real, no matter what i say look, a mountain just turned upside-down the land's turned to sea, sea's turned to land anything and nothing can happen here, it's like that neural debris skimming neural debris, here's the result peaceful, really, nothing's changed, still hot, storms in the distance and geometry and geomatics of human origin http://www.asondheim.org/lorbbs.mov http://www.asondheim.org/mor.mov and what they do _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:53:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron (another view) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the words on Gil Scott-Heron.... Lately been thinking alot about how great the 1980 album is, even with the "overproduction" Shah Mot, and "Sometime Early This Morning Or Was That Sometime Late Last Night" among my favorites.... C ---------- >From: ALDON L NIELSEN >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Gil Scott-Heron (another view) >Date: Thu, Jul 22, 2004, 6:01 PM > > Gil Scott-Heron was my creative writing teacher when I was an undergraduate. > > I had always tried to avoid creative writing classes, but they were required of > all English majors at Federal City College in the 70s -- so, I got the list of > available teachers and nearly jumped out of my seat when I saw Gil > Scott-Heron's name there -- You have to remember this was at the time when, in > addition to the radio success of "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," Gil > had three LPs out, a book of poems, and two novels -- and this guy was only > about a year older than I was at the time -- > > I signed up for the course after hearing his beautiful WINTER in AMERICA, the > album he did in between his early ABC sides (produced by Bob Thiele) and the > later Arista records after he'd signed with Clive Davis -- > > He was a great encouragement to me early on, and drugs had not yet gotten so > much of a grip on him that they were interfering with his abilities to function > -- that came in the 80s -- > > He was also hooked up with Brenda Sykes, a gorgeous young actress who has pretty > much disappeared from film in the intervening years, and they had a daughter, > to whom some of his later works are dedicated -- > > Look for the film of his concert at DC's Wax Museum for a sense of Gil at his > best -- it's out on VHS & DVD -- fortuantely, nearly all of his recordings > (except for the very late stuff) have been reissued in recent years -- the > voice & the approcah to singing remain fairly unchanged throughout -- but it's > a voice I'd dearly like to hear back on the scene again -- the novels are also > available again -- you might take a look at the first one if you're curious to > see what sort of detective novel gets written by a precocious 19 year old -- > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > --Emily Dickinson > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:43:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: LA: the smell, it came from Portland, Sunday, July 25, 6:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit reading and performing in a new multimedia series at the smell 6:30 pm - 10:30 pm, Sunday, July 25, 2004 Catherine Daly, DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003) Chris Piuma, flim, etc. The Minor Thirds Two Percent Majesty Kickball The Strangers the smell 247 south main (across from St. Vibiana) los angeles, ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: the refuge-re: Allison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so so so ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:25:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stephen this is getting very complicated - I'll try to put my thoughts in order - forgive me if they don't come out right. Firstly, you say: >It's odd that you surmise that Alan Sondheim in his "Moving On, by Alan Greenspan" is attempting, and failing, to make an argument, specifically failing to satirize you and your remarks. He's pretty clearly using your initial remarks about him, and subsequent posts in the thread you thus inaugurated, as grist to create another one of his endless run of puzzling, thought-provoking, consternating thingies, his "sondheims" as someone on this list once put it.< Well Alan's poem uses remarks by me right up to near its end so it's definitely not a case of using initial remarks. Where I am more concerned is in your evaluation of the poem as a 'sondheim' which goes back to my initial point about ego-tripping, you seem to be saying that Alan's poems are worthy of note because they are by Alan, this is circular logic. It's quite probably right that the Director of the Federal Reserve is the common enemy of both Mr Sondheim and Mr Bircumshaw but Alan has used tactics of misrepresentation and scorn in this debate - you ate falling into it when you say: >David, which then went on to fool around with your contention about being even poorer than he.< It wasn't a contention, Stephen, I am wholly unemployed and live on an income of 55 pounds a week. If it wasn't for the generosity of some friends I would starve (a loaf of bread here nowadays can cost over a quid). Alan complains that he has difficulty living on his income in New York - I couldn't even afford to live in London let alone NY. His remarks re trAce are quite revealing - >Poor you - did you apply for a bursary? You might have gone to Incubation for free -< Incubation, which is hosted by Nottingham Trent University, costs a fortune to attend and is a monument to the international bourgeouisie, Alan is one of its paid speakers. Most of the monies for arts funding re poetry in this region go into trAce, mainly to pay the salaries of its administrators, there's a fairly clear economics in the poetry scene hereabouts - De Montfort University in Leicester is the leading producer of arts admin graduates in the country and the soak goes to trAce, Charnwood Arts and the English dept at Loughborough. Meanwhile, next to nothing goes into supporting local writers, and that isn't a point about nationality. A very few people manipulate funding and I get them trying to be published in A Chide's Alphabet, because it has kudos, but not for instant would they give the mag support. I suspect Alan doesn't realise what he's bought into. All the Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Baraban" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 AM Subject: Re: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan Dear David Bircumshaw: It's odd that you surmise that Alan Sondheim in his "Moving On, by Alan Greenspan" is attempting, and failing, to make an argument, specifically failing to satirize you and your remarks. He's pretty clearly using your initial remarks about him, and subsequent posts in the thread you thus inaugurated, as grist to create another one of his endless run of puzzling, thought-provoking, consternating thingies, his "sondheims" as someone on this list once put it. When Alan wants to MAKE SOMETHING PERFECTLY CLEAR he tends to do just that--like in his short post about how his poems were clearly not for you, David, which then went on to fool around with your contention about being even poorer than he. But in the "sondheim" called "Moving On, by Alan Greenspan" we are presented with you and alan and pro alan & anti alan as forces of a curious scrimmage and storm...and we can set the words against each other interestingly: e.g. Alan as allegedly "caught", Alan as probably best able to "pursue" a certain thought...but why Greenspan, yes why Greenspan... Is it just Alan Sondheim randomly throwing another Alan into the mix to force us to construct meanings, or are there more intentions in his mind than that, I wouldn't know...he throws Greenspan in right after evoking the competition about who's more unemployed, so maybe A.G. is summoned as a ruling class common enemy of both sondheim and bircumshaw...and Greenspan is said to provide very cryptic answers at press conferences, so one could think of an interesting contrast of different types of crypticity, Greenspan's obsfucation as political strategy, and Sondheim's elusiveness to create his "machines made of words". And other meanings I could construct, but enough already. _______________________ So. I wanted to say also that contra what you have said there is evidence on this list that Alan does engage in discussions if you start a good one. -- "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > Ok then Alan, let's take this poem as a case in > point. Obviously it's > something to do with me as it quotes recent posts of > mine, we also have the > director of the Federal Reserve and a touch of > physics plus avatars thrown > in. I can honestly say, and this is not a matter of > not being 'nice', that I > have no idea of what it means. This isn't a matter > of indulging in personal > attacks, I'm not flaming you, but the poem conveys > nothing to me - I derive > the impression of being presented with an argument > without content. I > imagine it is supposed to be some kind of satirical > take on my remarks and > that is why they are quoted but I am guessing here. > If you do find something > risible in what I said then you need to make a case, > it's not enough to just > quote my words back > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet > & Painting Without Numbers > > http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Sondheim" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:03 AM > Subject: Moving On, by Alan Greenspan > > > Moving On, by Alan Greenspan > > > Subject: Ah, Alan...etc. > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > I am afraid Alan's poems do bore me - I know they > are dead because I can't > I can beat Alan in being unemployed, btw, I am and > get about 2500 pounds a > Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told lawmakers > Tuesday, meaning the > super-low > (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's > constructive.) > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Subject: You gotta try this thing Alan Sondheim > Alan > Alan Sondheim > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > anything. Let's begin with Alan's poems, I'll > preface my emphasising yet > 'extremely snide'. I just get bored by Alan's poems > - he posts a lot of them > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to > me to be caught in a > attack on Alan's work and person just to make hay > for your own > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > (And Alan's reply isn't smart at all. It's > constructive.) > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Am I the only 'original' member left after Alan? I > still have most of > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot of > them and what is > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me intrinsic > to the form(s) Alan is > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems to > me to be caught in a > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on you > with Alan's 'actants' > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' > (steady state) in some sort > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan > and defense of Alan's work. I'm almost starting to > think of these cycles > system. But Alan could probably pursue an idea like > that better than I > > > I just get bored by Alan's poems - he posts a lot > of them and what is > > That 'he posts a lot of them' seems to me > intrinsic to the form(s) Alan is > > my comparison with Macd's still holds, Alan seems > to me to be caught in a > > what you felt to be the 'incarnation' imposed on > you with Alan's 'actants' > > thing I would never say is that Alan is 'caught' > (steady state) in some > sort > > 'Think of a book inflicted on its author...' (Alan > Sondheim) > Dear Alan Sondheim, > inequivalent alan > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:49:12 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit la prad's dating mailer's former wife what comes comes twice.... 9:00...the work of hands...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:16:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Cheney Faces Criminal Indictments Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Cheney Faces Criminal Indictments; Other Illegal Actions Raise Warning Flags at White House: Bush Reported In On The Payoff: Negroponte Readies Government Death Squads, Vows To Fight To The Death For Dick by Busta Tamponn ITS U.S. FOREIGN POLICY, STUPID! Panel Cites 48,981 Missed Opportunities To Avoid 9/11/2001 Since 9/11/1901: Pattern of Belligerence, Imperialism and Theft Toward The Arab World Called "Suspicious:" After Reasons To Invade Iraq Play Out As A Deck Of Canards, Is Iran Becoming the Cheney/Bush Administration's New International Willie Horton? Chicken Hawk Senators Suggest Next Years Draftees Serve Three Consecutive Tours, One Each In Afghanistan, Iraq And Iran: Hastert: 9/11 Reforms Unlikely This Half Century: Marine Goes Self-Serve At The All-You-Can-Eat Of Death by Hoople Urn They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE, FRI 7/30 - SUN 8/1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Behrle asked me to post. Hope you can make it. ---------------------------------------------------- THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE FRI 7/30 - SUN 8/1 WordsWorth Books Harvard Square Cambridge, MA lots of poets read a few poems FRI 7/30 7:00 Sean Cole 7:12 Sara Veglahn 7:24 David Kirschenbaum 7:36 Chad Parenteau 7:48 Shin Yu Pai break 8:12 Guillermo Juan Parra 8:24 Jim Dunn 8:36 Gina Myers 8:48 John Mulrooney 9:00 Shanna Compton break 9:24 Christopher Rizzo 9:36 Dana Ward 9:48 Prageeta Sharma 10:00 Cole Heinowitz 10:12 Marcella Durand SAT 7/31 11:00 Amanda Nadelberg 11:12 Lisa Lubasch 11:24 Mark Lamoureux 11:36 Erica Kaufman 11:48 Rachel Levitsky break 12:12 Colby Cedar Smith 12:24 John Colleti 12:36 Brendan Lorber 12:48 Cori Copp 1:00 Filip Marinovic break 1:24 Jenny Boully 1:36 Sandra Simonds 1:48 Jaime Corbacho 2:00 John Cotter 2:12 Joanna Sondheim break 2:36 Shafer Hall 2:48 Jennifer Knox 3:00 Gabriella Torres 3:12 Ada Limon 3:24 Katie Degentesh break 3:48 Daniel Nester 4:00 Tina Brown Celona 4:12 Hassen 4:24 Nick Piombino 4:36 Anna Moschovakis break 5:00 Stephanie Young 5:12 Gary Sullivan 5:24 Nada Gordon 5:36 Elizabeth Reddin Saturday night 7:00 Jordan Davis 7:12 Aaron Kunin 7:24 David Hess 7:36 Jacqueline Waters 7:48 Drew Gardner break 8:12 Tracey McTague 8:24 Joe Torra 8:36 Alli Warren 8:48 Max Winter 9:00 Dorothea Lasky break 9:24 Christina Strong 9:36 Kimberly Lyons 9:48 Kish Song Bear 10:00 Laurel Snyder 10:12 Douglas Rothschild SUN 8/1 11:00 Mitch Highfill 11:12 TBA 11:24 Macgregor Card 11:36 Brian Kim Stefans 11:48 Matvei Yankelevich break 12:24 Brandon Downing 12:36 Jack Kimball 12:48 Andrew Mister 1:00 Aaron Kiely 1:12 Gabriel Gudding break 1:36 Noah Eli Gordon 1:48 Stacy Szymaszek 2:00 Michael Carr 2:12 David Perry 2:24 TBA break 2:48 Chris Jackson 3:00 Matthew Celona 3:12 Lori Lubeski 3:24 Mike County 3:36 Neetzan Zimmerman Attend if attending is your thing. THE REVOLUTION ISN'T ON THE BUFFALO LIST ---------- Jim Behrle Events Director WordsWorth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 354 5201 fax (617) 354 4674 jim@wordsworth.com www.wordsworth.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:26:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear All, I've just received word that Ron Sukenick passed away yesterday morning after a long illness. I first met Ron five years ago when I arrived on the CU-Boulder campus. Kass (Fleisher) and I got to know Ron and his wife, the scholar and Toulouse-Lautrec biographer Julia Frey, quite well in the short time before they relocated to Manhattan. I knew Ron, then, in his later years, and he was always kind, generous and supportive of my work. I regard his ~Mosaic Man~ as one of the finest US novels of the past half-century. I'll miss him, and I regard his passing as a great loss to the international writing community. Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:37:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Illinois Jacquet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain 1928-2004 Illinois Jacquet Flying Home <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:41:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe: I'm very sorry to hear this. A great loss the literary world. Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Amato" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 8:26 AM Subject: Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004 > Dear All, > > I've just received word that Ron Sukenick passed away yesterday > morning after a long illness. > > I first met Ron five years ago when I arrived on the CU-Boulder > campus. Kass (Fleisher) and I got to know Ron and his wife, the > scholar and Toulouse-Lautrec biographer Julia Frey, quite well in the > short time before they relocated to Manhattan. > > I knew Ron, then, in his later years, and he was always kind, > generous and supportive of my work. I regard his ~Mosaic Man~ as one > of the finest US novels of the past half-century. > > I'll miss him, and I regard his passing as a great loss to the > international writing community. > > Best, > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:41:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodney Phillips Subject: Poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to say, not only are we now subjected to two or three Sondheim poems every day, others are responding in kind with their poems. I wonder if you could just share them back channel with each other. Seems not to be really very well mannered to make us all page quickly through them (they really are not very interesting). Posts and threads such as the Family poetry thread are on the other hand fascinating and what the list should be about. Thanks Rodney Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:13:24 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Re: Poems on the list In-Reply-To: <157.3a94eb00.2e3299c6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Couldn't disagree more. While I am receiving every day three or four versions of Alan's txts - because we are on several common lists - and have to delete the unnecessary copies - such a constraint..., I find his work really interesting and not at all ego-driven. He explores new textualities in new contexts - to put it roughly, but remaining the central node of the networks he wanders within - remaining the "Author" if you wish, he thus expresses poetically a sort of connected subjectivity, which is all that could be labelled "ego-driven"... Well, that is not the point anyway. I think that we have seen through the different posts during the last days that Alan has a lot of readers on this list, and also that some people dislike his works. You should have a closer look to the name of this list, though: it isn't [Poetry], no, it is [Poetics]. Which means that this list should be open to experimental approaches, inquiries and searches in contemporary writing and its meanings in our networked society. Alan's works are completely at their right place when posted to this list. People here should be more open-minded and accept that this digital agora welcome different voices and different thoughts. I personally have no interest in the topic "family poems", but have you read an incendiary post from me about it? Debates and queries can keep going on on parallel ways - after all, that is the meaning of such a public place. Sincerely, Cyrill. (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ Quoting Rodney Phillips : > After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to say, not only are we now > subjected to two or three Sondheim poems every day, others are responding > in kind with their poems. I wonder if you could just share them back channel > with each other. Seems not to be really very well mannered to make us all > page quickly through them (they really are not very interesting). > Posts and threads such as the Family poetry thread are on the other hand > fascinating and what the list should be about. > Thanks > Rodney Phillips > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Ron Sukenick, 1932-2004 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I agree; I knew Ron a bit through Alt-X, and found him both kind and supportive; this is very sad news. - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:50:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Poems on the list In-Reply-To: <157.3a94eb00.2e3299c6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good smegging God. What criteria does a poem have to satisfy in order to be considered "interesting"? The idea that *talking about* poems is inherently more interesting than actual *poems* just makes me want to weep. This idiotic Sondheim contretemps recurs with shocking regularity on this list. A bunch of people (like me) post that they like his stuff. Another bunch doesn't. Can one bunch just learn how to use the filters that come built into almost every email client, including, IIRC, pine and elm? I would sign up for a Sondheim-only list, but I don't think there should bloody well have to be one. Harry Nudel bats one out of the park every now and then too. It's not just those who profess a certain set of politics that show me something I like. If poetics in action are not poetics, what are poetics? Gwyn McVay, alleged poet --- Even while I'm writing, I am listening for crows. -- Louise Erdrich ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:54:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: Poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, since there seems to be such Sondheim debate, maybe Alan should start up an email list of his stuff so people can get it directly. However, "what the list is about" seems to be somethign that could be debated forever & ever and I wonder if one person can really say -- or is there a mission statement out there that states there shan't be any poetry??? I don't think we should boot Alan out or any other poet out. If you read any of the posts over the past week or two, (and if you don't read, why do you post?) there are quite a few people who love Sondheim's work and even more who have no objection whatsoever to it. Just because some people dislike it does not mean it has no place here. Just put all your poetics posts in a separate folder... There are so many per day that Alan or any other poet can hardly be blamed for the amount of emails there are. ----------------------------------------------------- Michelle Reeves Roswell, GA 30075 michellepoet@bellsouth.net ----------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:14:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Poems on the List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I try to keep things simple because they get complicated enough anyway. I've always supported the right of Alan Sondheim or any other poet to post their work to the List. If I'm too busy to read them or not interested, I use my delete button. Sometimes it's an inconvenience. But look at all the good work that's being written that has no other place to go. At least we have the option of reading it and the authors have the opportunity to have their work read. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:16:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Re: Poems on the list In-Reply-To: <006401c470de$1245ee40$86cbfea9@reevescomo0vlm> (michelle reeves's message of "Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:54:16 -0400") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > However, "what the list is about" seems to be somethign that could be > debated forever & ever and I wonder if one person can really say -- or is > there a mission statement out there that states there shan't be any > poetry??? There is. And you should have received it when joining the list. It begins like this: Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its third incarnation, the list carries about 1000 subscribers worldwide, though all of these subscribers do not necessarily receive messages at any given time. A good number of other people read the Poetics List via our web archives (see web-address above). Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. We recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange in this still-new medium. We request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project, and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. For subscription information or to contact the moderators, write to . (I'm certain the rest can be obtained from the moderators.) I'd would rather see *more* postings in line with this mandate, rather than less. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Manifestos In-Reply-To: <006401c470de$1245ee40$86cbfea9@reevescomo0vlm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question, I am working something with Manifestos as a focus, poetic and other wise and I am having trouble finding stuff after the mid 1990's anyone out there that has access to or has an manifestos written after say 1995 send them my way saudade@comcast.net R Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:19:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Illinois Jacquet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was 18 I heard Jacquet with Mingus at the Five Spot during a period in which Mingus changed his front line almost every night. I arrived early, in time to hear Mingus teach Jacquet the introduction to Peggie's Blue Skylight. It was a very interesting rehearsal. Jacquet was a good one and it's a shame to lose him. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:57:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all: this seems like an appropriate time to send out the latest version of the poetics listserv welcome message in its entirety. You'll note that there is no explicit policy or statement about posting poems on the listserv--I personally feel that it's perfectly acceptable to post poems but at the same time I'd be very disappointed if in-depth discussion were replaced entirely by poems (and this doesn't seem very likely to happen). All best, Lori Emerson listserv moderator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- W E L C O M E T O T H E P O E T I C S L I S T S E R V Sponsored by the Poetics Program, Department of English, State University of New York at Buffalo Poetics List Moderator: Lori Emerson Please address all inquiries to: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu (note that it may take up to a week to receive a response from us) Snail mail: Poetics Program c/o Lori Emerson, 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY Buffalo, NY 14260 Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Electronic Poetry Center: http://epc.buffalo.edu C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Subscription Options 4. To Unsubscribe 5. Posting to the List 6. Cautions This Welcome Message updated 24 March 2003. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceeding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its third incarnation, the list carries about 1000 subscribers worldwide, though all of these subscribers do not necessarily receive messages at any given time. A good number of other people read the Poetics List via our web archives (see web-address above). Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. We recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange in this still-new medium. We request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project, and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. For subscription information or to contact the moderators, write to . This is a private list and information about this list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list membership to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume manageable. The current limits of the list are 50 messages per day, and two messages per subscriber per day. The Poetics List is a moderated list. Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). The specific form of moderation that we employ is a relatively fluid one: in most cases, messages are reviewed after having been posted to the list, and difficulties resolved on that basis; however, the list moderators may shift with impunity between this and a pre-review mode which calls for all messages to be read and approved before being forwarded to the list. We prefer to avoid this option, as it hampers the spontaneity of discussion that we hope to promote. In addition to these options, the list moderators may place subscribers who find themselves unable to abide by the rules of the list under individual review, in which case only their messages would be received for moderators' approval before being forwarded to the list. We remain committed to this editorial function as a defining element of the Poetics List (for further information please see section 6 of this Welcome Message). Those few individuals who are no longer welcome to post on this list have forfeited that right because of their refusal to abide by list policies as stated in this Welcome message. While we adhere to a practice of not discussing particular cases on the list, the areas of our greatest concern include flaming of other list subscribers, including the list owners, and/or giving us false registration information. Please note some individuals have publicized false accounts of the policies of the Poetics List. We have deemed it unwise to respond directly to the flames of the list, preferring simply to note here that the Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on Modern and contemporary poetry and poetics. We are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. For this reason, the list has always been private or moderated. Further information on posting to the list for subscribers, publishers and series-coordinators, see sections 5 and 6. In addition to being archived at through the EPC (http://epc.buffalo.edu) and at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. 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Posting to the List The Poetics List is a moderated list. All messages are reviewed by the moderators in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message (see section 1). Please note that while this list is primarily concerned with discussions of poetry and poetics, messages relating to politics and political activism, film, art, media, and so forth are also welcome. Feel free to query the list moderators if you are uncertain as to whether a message is appropriate. All correspondence with the moderators regarding submissions to the list remains confidential and should be directed to us at . We strongly encourage subscribers to post information on publications and reading series that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications are always welcome. 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This of course includes ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked--in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudononymous subscriptions. We also discourage the sending of HTML-formatted messages to the list. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be sent in Text-Only format. Please also do not send attachments or include extremely long documents (1,000+ words) in a post. Messages containing attachments will be presumed to be worm- or virus-carrying and will not be forwarded to the list. Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 2 messages per day from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 50 or fewer messages per day. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the moderators at . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- E N D O F P O E T I C S L I S T W E L C O M E M E S S A G E ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:09:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Backyardie Boxup (from More at 7:30) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It was like they say -- it was like Gawd took the daye off to watch them fight. Thét yard was packt. The Creamcam was online. En Cream do his shit. Flex en chant for Us homey. Holdin the havoc staff, Creamfist, he hollas, -Yaddy, yaddy, yawrdies! Bravebwoyz, Rude dudes, Gz, Baldheads, ilaz Chiggaz, Wiggaz, Crittaz, Abi Originalz, Blacks en Nekgaz!! Step red up!!1 It’s rumble in the dungle Put thét toonie in teet en watch weight drop, All up in this corna Mi crookeds Of the cuff pon cuff of The Relitivity Puppet. Him the papislaya. The darkas dim searin spark of rage!!1! Raiseup, yuh blunts en ales ¡Ya! For The Brutha Sugah Ardbop, Esq !!1!! - Ardbop, he go sqwat close down on Me. He blowup his cheeks like they ready to pop. He like a hungry loc waitin to to get paid. The crowd whoop en holla. -En in this corna, the badbwoy make to battle this daye!!1!! Who kno/who kno/who know woht wickedness creeps from babylon? Mighty Duke Fuchx he kno!!1!! Him brave come from Ferny to cuff en cuss in his hoodway shadowbox. Aquí para Fuchx y ¿qué? Rollup, rollup, rollup yuh bucks Toss in fa we make to draw life en live like the pharaoh’s dance swang fabulous wit mi faasties. For when come the de red for down [!] Mi bleeChAaazzzz[!] Then make the time for bashment bust his nut. AAAAAAAAAAAAAH, Nekgaz!!!! Woht a poppy! Woht a show! Woht a BaM bAm we have- More, Army, No en Tek en Lil Burg flex mean like glamamity. Fuchx starts to hop en swang, up en low, stretchin his arms out … some folk cut woht chuckle was bubblin. Most are drawn in, in awe, enthralled -- a silent stun thét goes in the throat low to the chest en is pumpt back up by the vibrations of the heart pin ponged to the adams apple en forth again as peepers peep long brown legs, stretcht out rebel soul, extendin from baby blue trunks. They kno fe/kno fa/they kno fo certain, naw – Fuchx a duke supreme come to blow they yard ¡Ya! Thét they see en kno thét brave bravo is a cuss cuss champion. They see en kno fo shu thét Mighty crittah’s slick flickin arm dbl charmin magnetic charismatic leggys’ are giant steppin into the beat waitin for the bass to drop. Sweepin twn the sweat Flexin lean muscled reach Swangin out Fa bounce Riddim into flesh, Into armz leggy legz Alarmed headz hopboppin Swang much hard/fast like Speedy Baker ¡Ya! the Kid’s Chocolate Mighty shocked them He got. Almighty! Him. The potty wrecker = Cassius Clay //THE MOST HIGH// he straighten out the madness in bakra isle. Mighty aghast, them. Counfound them At the exsposure of bruises en burns bumps en zippers The slenderness of the thought -- it all connect to thét mad hollerin badbwoy Thét Hood champion Who make to faasty -En your judge of judges, mi crookeds, the righteous tightest I Hona- I Hona say: -Knuckle in breddas. We start this mix en take it to x-ray- The trumpet bust wiph the bass a fanfare for the warriors. Rudebwoys knock knuckles Duke Fuchx bow. Ponder pon this. Have the thought linger on in your heart en see if you gotz the heart to not make you too laggahead. Ardbop swangout en clip Fuchx dizzy. The Mighty shake it off. He look calm. Duke neva fight cuz he vexed. He lose if he fight vexed. Duke was a jazzy mauler. He jump en hop jingle his money thang en box to the rhythm of a switch blade. Me in this mix feel his steps. His hop/his skip/his fop/no miss. Woht condition Duke leave him wiph after the end come to the started? The song said “the stars want forget to shine.” Wither away cuz there ain’t no Sun shine. the stars want forget to shine. They circle round ¡Ya! apponant’s head. Cock fist, crittah!1! Fuchx he box him retarded. -Punk ‘em- Booooomwhooooooomp Booooomwhooooooomp Booooomwhooooooomp Booooom zagga Whooomp Ziggaziggyzigga Zoooooom Booooom Booooom ziggazigga huh Booooom zigga Boom zigga zigga Whoomp zigga Babooom Whooomp Babooom Whooomp huh huh uh ha Booooom Whooomp phdadawhoopda Blood Tear the laceration -Punk ‘em- swellin pounded down til it red til it purple derg turn blue come round to black en it tear open it spill out. Get it out It fix to cut open spill it out get it out hit it hit it ‘it it hard Babooom Whooomp -Give it to ‘em, bwoy- til purple Booooom Whooomp til lacerate large wide. boptadayehudagriiiiirrnaH ¡Ya! Babooooom Whooomp heart Supporters slap their passes down to big bop in the money jungle. Race thét fuccer til he drop. He whack ‘em -Punk’em, nekgah- Nekgah shake it off. He smack him. Nekgah in shock. Black machine gun him with his knuckles. Punch like switch swing til skin rip. Fuchx’ trunk’s purple. His face a mop of blood blister. ‘Ardbop step coo/cool. Fuchx wind his belly. Up Pop More uplift, naw. Watch thét bop drop. Spit Lil’Burg, -Burk the bumb, Duke- Legion of young men rumble Bop crowd grumble. Janes’pussy dampen The dead men gamble Wiggy watchin… More. Bare knuckle. He beat thét ass raw. Fuchx hop en wrap knuckles roun woht was a Ardbop’s face. Both bwoys are beat pretty. Move roun each one lookin goowey bloody silly. Noses come to rubber on the bwoys. They press flat en look funny. ¡Ya! -Ukno, we gotz scrill on this mix, nekgah. Y’betta notz fail us, nekgah- Spit More, -Comeon, Duke!!! Aggy, baby ¡Ya!- Fuchx see More en he all up in thét grin. Fuchx wont Ardbop’s flesh to fail ‘em. -Thét’s mi Duke, mayn! Thét’s mi Dukefuchx. Show’em how we kill it. Wyel thét Bop, dawg- We pause|| [all up in thét grin] We pause|| Turn his coolness against him. Make him remember the rude. [baby make close] Snap him on the beat. Shout his fist over his solo. Play> Bamtadawham Bodadang Bodadabodadabodada Badadadam Zoom This swang was created for suckas like you Yeeeeeeeeeeeee!1! Slam Booooom!! ziggaziggiziggi Swerve wiph the hip Step hop bop. Fain en rock your kneck Step step bop hop. Slam swang bop slam Whamwhamwhamwham -He gon kill thét muddafuccah- Fleshy tear up. Spray of blood sprinkle on More’s sleeve. Duke en Ardbop got all the crookeds in the mix, naw. Punch free Swang free Beat ‘em steady Ride off his dizzyness Ride em in the mix They all up in this, naw, bwoy!!1!! Kill his movement en spit this swea You down? He down. You wont up? Their peepers meet. Duke steady. Ardbop try en upset Duke but Duke steady. They pause|| Duke run thét ‘Ardbop, down. Play|| Raw/tambran wham/bam/ [b]//waaah/ boom// boom/boom/boom badaboom bom/ ziggaziggazigga boom// boom/boom/boom [let they fist speak in mathematics] Shred meat face bwoys wanna steady this. The ramble wont fa mo, though -Crash the nekgah, yo- let dey leddey/leddey/leddey Fists thump stings pullmorebeat low ‘Ardbop’s face, it turn to Us. Duke thinkin of the 1 thing – his solid heart fixed to pity. Groovey Allah waites en checkes the dat. Surrender to the 1 …en 1 who won Grumblin end. ‘Ardbop try to speak through his raw lips. Skinned. Pity the biddy. Duke thank. [Blow pop]. Duke slam ‘Ardbop through. The kids drop roars en the whole shit comes to sound like an x-ray mix. -Y’crasht thét nekgah- Waddys WahLin Mad. -El nuovo loco Poro vato, c/s- Spit More, -MURdaH!!!!!!! ¡Ya! ¡Ya! ¡Ya! ¡Ya! ¡Ya! ¡Ya! ¡Ya!- I Hona grab one hold of Fuchx’ arm. Cream say as I Hona lifts The Mighty Champion Duke Fuchx raw fist way up above Me, -Raise up yer fists, blastup yer cheers luvluv en drop yer bucks for the Mighty Mighty Supreme hood scrap Lord Duke Fuchx the Hood Champion!!1!!- -Give him the Sun, dun- -He wont the Sun- More he wont the Sun. He aks his moms once for one. ¡Ya! WOOOOp wOoP WooP Woop wOOp ¡Ya! Break Backyardie Boxup (from More at 7:30) 1424 Lawrence Y Braithwaite (aka Lord Patch) an author in north amerikkka New Palestine/Fernwood/The Hood BC -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:03:33 -0700 Reply-To: mastermailinglist_reply@mailhost.groundspring.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mona Baroudi Subject: Declarations of Independence Literary Forum 7/27 at Intersection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit INTERSECTION SUMMER 2004 LITERARY SERIES presents Declarations of Independence Literary Forum This public forum with independent presses, producers, presenters, and writers of all genres provides an opportunity to talk about the most pressing issues facing the literary community in the Bay Area today, while forging new literary collaborations. Come down, have a glass of wine on us, and share your thoughts, perspectives, and insights, and meet your colleagues in the field. Tuesday July 27, 8 PM Intersection for the Arts 446 Valencia (btwn 15/16) Mission District, San Francisco FREE Info: (415) 626-2787, www.theintersection.org “Passionate, provocative, intimate dialogues…Intersection is the place.” Cultural Critic/author bell hooks Celebrating its 40th Anniversary next year, Intersection for the Arts is San Francisco’s oldest alternative art space and presents challenging new works in literature, theatre, visual and interdisciplinary arts. We depend on the support of people like you. Please help ensure that Intersection is around for 40 more years and become a Member today. To become a Member, simply visit our Website and click on the Donate Now icon at www.theintersection.org. You are subscribed to this list as mona@theintersection.org. To unsubscribe, send email to [mona@theintersection.org] . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Heidi Lynn Staples Subject: Re: Poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I teach at a school and we have these bloody meetings where we talk about and talk about and talk all bleedin' evening about some ol' thing that doesn't really matter but give someone a minute and they'll take a bleedin' hour and they'll talk about and talk about just what are we doing there they'll define the word 'meeting' they'll count the number of chairs but really all I'm thinking 'bout is when I'll go on home or how my new dress socks look or why my mother lives alone or can a marriage really last or how could we bomb those people or will the extinctions end or what happened to our freedom or what that means to me who has given her life to writing yes, I'm sitting in this room while others are off fighting yes, how can one address it the injustice of it all without reinscribing it that 'it' and its shopping-malls and these meetings they'll go on and on, a bureaucratic blitz but we all have better things to do like read poetry on the Poetics list. Heidi Lynn Staples co-Editor, Parakeet editors@parakeetmag.org 115 Roosevelt Avenue Syracuse, New York 13210 315-472-9710 http://mildredsumbrella.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: h.c@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Voice Over poem/art/ criticism project and Open Adoption for Art Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII One of the two poems that was published in the July-August issue of New York Arts magazine. I will have two pages of Voice Overs in the September issue. Voice Over—Dieter Roth, MOMA and P.S. 1, Thurs., 4/15. (cough) … what … there’s a … it looks like … they took it … (cough) … this is just too much … sorry … I know … nice … that’s good … (laugh) … hmm … hmm ... Scheisse … ya … ein … Scheisse … zig … Scheisse … nein … dede dede dede … who knows … no? …no. –Holly Crawford, Voice Over ©2004 Open Adoption for Art I am looking for 'good enough mother' for colloborate in art project. Paintings need narrative and development. Core image my not be altered! But, objects maybe attached to edges. I am putting together baby books. While the birthplace of the art open for adoption is New York, safe, stable, and loving homes are looked for all over the world. Anybody will be given serious consideration regardless of race, creed or sexual preference. A once chosen "good enough mother" may take care of the adopted art for one year or less. Art in this program is always evolving. Nevertheless, the art adopted must get a name first. In addition, it is of the utmost importance that the parent is documenting the well-being, social-interactions, or physical development of the adoptee, and routinely sends in updates with narratives, photographs, sketches, etc. If you feel that you cannot provide your adoptee with a safe environment, we suggest a virtual open adoption program. The adoption conditions are the same. For more information on this project please contact me and see Open Adoption for Art and Cases in Need on my site art-poetry.info Holly Crawford h.c@earthlink.net www.art-poetry.info ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Run! DNC / A note from Boston Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed DNC COMING DOWN HARD Excuse me, ma'am, I'll have to check your purse. Pardon me, sir, you'll have to leave that glazed donut here. Gee, wouldn't it be cool if I saw the Clintons. Gee, wouldn't it be cool if I met the star of Gigli for a beer. Excuse me, ma'am, I'm going have to sniff your pretty little shoes for bombs. Pardon me, sir, you're going to need to put this hood over your head while I bitch slap you. I bet at lunch I'll go out and see Bill Clinton ordering chicken fingers and crab rangoon. I bet Michael Moore is sweating like a bastard out there; it's almost Farenheit 90. I oughta go down to the Fleet Center and protest like a cop! I'll stand in the little sheep pen of chain link fence and razor wire and shout at the delegates who are thinking of cocktails. Only cops could get away with protesting in Boston like they did. They put their lives on the line clubbing tree huggers and spraying mace into the eyes of the granola-packing protesters. They're penned in next to the diesel fumes of buses. I wonder if Barbara Streisand is here. I will carry a sign that says: VOTE FOR KERRY I GUESS. And she'll smile at me while a junior lieutenant sticks and oak nightstick into my ribs. Susan Sarandon is so hot. I'll wave my sign at her that says I'LL VOTE FOR KERRY! IF HE RIDS THE NATION OF RIGHT-WINGERS AND WARM WINTERS. But I'm a realist, I watch the knees scrape and bleed in the melee. I know Kerry, if elected, will have to make peace with all the wack-jobs awaiting the second coming. Wouldn't it be cool to meet Ziggy Marley on the train? What would I say? I'm so not cool. "Hey, Ziggy." "What's up." The sausages are fantastic, eh? I mean just great! Bet the RNC gets the message, gotta find new vendors, can't have mine, they've been tested and 60% approve the Democratic platform. These are my vendors, and I gotta go get a big sausage, 'cuz that's how we do it in Boston. Win! Win! Win! Oh lord, these are just wonderful fuckin' sausages....Oh Mr Presumptive Nominee, may I get you one? Peppers? I'm going to get out there and party like an anarchist. I'll wear my best torn jeans and black tee-shirt. Oh, Black Tea Society, I get it. I guess. I hope I run into Katie Couric. "You know," I'll say, "you're a real hero to bubbleheads nationwide." I bet the delegates are just getting started when Boston bars close at 1 am. We'll all go back to John Kerry's place and watch his favorite video where he kills some Vietcong guy running into the jungle. It will be late and I'll collapse on a couch. Ted Kennedy will yawn, his pants button undone. Al Gore will play the banjo. Peter Jennings will ask me what I think of things. Michael Dukakis will snore in a recliner. Hillary will still be on the phone. It will be time to head home. I will give James Taylor a ride. Flea on your donkey! Waffling flip flop man Uber brahmin! Botox boy! The whole fucking town will be destroyed by the time the poets arrive next week. by Daniel Bouchard Christina Strong & Michael County ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard Senior Production Coordinator The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 <>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:42:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE, FRI 7/30 - SUN 8/1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shit that dalachinsky and other great city folk are not part of this is more than a crime cronies one and all put that barbed fence up a little higher a camp concentrated on herd mentality or have ya heard all that before stupid of me to send thids i gotta live in this townn breathe in this town feed in this town maybe move to boston for a semester ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:20:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Organization: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: Poems on the list In-Reply-To: <157.3a94eb00.2e3299c6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd just like to point out, for those of you using Microsoft Outlook or some other such program to receive e-mail -- and even Yahoo has this feature now -- it's very easy to create folders and filters that re-direct e-mail "from" a certain person (or group) to a certain folder. So if Alan's or any other person's posts are so offensive to you, all you have to do is create a rule in your settings and have them filtered directly into your trash can. A little bit of work, yes, but even easier in the long run than dragging and dropping or hitting the delete key. If it's the very IDEA of Alan or Nudel or whoever clogging the list with poems or rants or what-have-you, that strikes me as more of a protocol issue which inches dangerously close to censorship at worst and exclusion at best. best, DH -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Rodney Phillips Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:42 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Poems on the list After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to say, not only are we now subjected to two or three Sondheim poems every day, others are responding in kind with their poems. I wonder if you could just share them back channel with each other. Seems not to be really very well mannered to make us all page quickly through them (they really are not very interesting). Posts and threads such as the Family poetry thread are on the other hand fascinating and what the list should be about. Thanks Rodney Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 20:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Just a reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This coming Saturday: Wanda Phipps (with Joel Schlemowitz on guitar) & Bonny Finberg Reading Saturday, July 24th 5-7pm (in the garden if weather permits, in the cozy gallery if not) at Tribes 285 East 3rd St., 2nd Floor, NYC (between C and D) Take the F or V train to 2nd Ave. or 6 train to Bleecker 212-674-3778 -- Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems by Wanda Phipps available at the Soft Skull site: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item and don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: Denise Enck Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Denise Enck Subject: Michael McClure in London - Tues. August 3 / Website Updates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael McClure Reading at the London Review Bookshop London, England Tuesday, August 3, 2004 The reading takes place at 7pm at LRB, located at 14 Bury Place, London, England. For tickets, please contact the London Review Bookshop. You can reach them by email at books@lrbshop.co.uk, or by telephone at 00 44 (0)20 7269 9030. The LRB website is located at http://www.lrb.co.uk. *** We're pleased to announce two new additions to the McClure-Manzarek.com website: Robert Creeley's new poem sequence, CAVES http://www.mcclure-manzarek.com/creeley.html ~ and ~ Ten excerpts from Michael Rothenberg's The Real & False Journals, Book I with photos of Philip Whalen & friends. http://www.mcclure-manzarek.com/mrothenberg.html http://www.McClure-Manzarek.com PO Box 972, Mukilteo, WA 98275 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:37:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Manifestos In-Reply-To: <001a01c470e1$70c92740$1c8cad43@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/narrativity/issue_three/edwards.html the gender bill of rights.. there's a link on my blog.. Sections of - Wilchins, Riki Anne Wilchins. Read My Lips: Sexual=20 subversion and the End of Gender. Firebrand Books, Ithaca, New York,=20 1997. Stone, Sandy. The Empire Strikes Back: A Posttranssexual Manifesto.=20 Body Guards, Edited by Julia Epstein and Kristina Straub, Routledge,=20 New York. 1991. **Hale, C. Jacob. "Consuming the living, Dis (re) membering the dead in=20= the Butch/Ftm Borderlands.=94 Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies: Volume=20= 4, Number 2 (1998) 311-338. Rothblatt, Martine. The Apartheid of Sex: A manifesto on the Freedom of=20= Gender. Crown Publishers, Inc. 1995. On Friday, July 23, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > I have a question, I am working something with Manifestos as a focus,=20= > poetic > and other wise and I am having trouble finding stuff after the mid=20 > 1990's > anyone out there that has access to or has an manifestos written after=20= > say > 1995 send them my way > > saudade@comcast.net > > R > > > > > > > Raymond L Bianchi > chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ > collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:56:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Brian Kim Stefans and Emily Critchley at Bar Reis, July 28th Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed My farewell reading of sorts -- I'm moving to Providence in August -- but also a chance for you to hear a friend of mine from England read in New York for the first time. With any luck she'll wear the cool tiara (see author photo at my blog) My computer monitor is busted so I don't have anyone's email addresses -- please pass this on if you know someone who might want to come. http://www.arras.net/fscII/ Wednesday, July 28, 8pm Bar Reis 375 5th Avenue (btwn 5th & 6th Streets) Brooklyn (F train to 4th and 9th) 718-832-5716 love brian ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:16:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Sondheim must be doing something right, because there's more discussion on at least his strategy than on anyone else on this list. The measure of his success is that, like all progressive artists of the past, he exasperates and irritates some people. Whether his work will be known a decade from now is in question, as it is for everyone's work. But by being overproductive, Alan forces the issue of neglect. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hadbawnik" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Poems on the list > I'd just like to point out, for those of you using > Microsoft Outlook or some other such program to > receive e-mail -- and even Yahoo has this feature > now -- it's very easy to create folders and > filters that re-direct e-mail "from" a certain > person (or group) to a certain folder. So if > Alan's or any other person's posts are so > offensive to you, all you have to do is create a > rule in your settings and have them filtered > directly into your trash can. A little bit of > work, yes, but even easier in the long run than > dragging and dropping or hitting the delete key. > > If it's the very IDEA of Alan or Nudel or whoever > clogging the list with poems or rants or > what-have-you, that strikes me as more of a > protocol issue which inches dangerously close to > censorship at worst and exclusion at best. > > best, > > DH > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > Rodney Phillips > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:42 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Poems on the list > > After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to > say, not only are we now subjected to two or three > Sondheim poems every day, others are responding in > kind with their poems. I wonder if you could just > share them back channel with each other. Seems not > to be really very well mannered to make us all > page quickly through them (they really are not > very interesting). > Posts and threads such as the Family poetry thread > are on the other hand fascinating and what the > list should be about. > Thanks > Rodney Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:36:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Don't Believe the Hype: We're Living In a Police State MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28191.php Don't Believe the Hype: We're Living In a Police State ...the puzzle pieces begin to come together... We are not "looking out" for REAL "terrorists." We are looking out for those who may only "sympathize" with criminals. Basically, we are being asked to spy on our neighbors and report anything and anyone who does not fit into the cookie-cutter mold of Western Christianity. i'm like a lot of people i have met throughout the years. .... Yes, i "sympathize" with these concocted members of organized crime. When i see a police chase on the news, i generally "sympathize" with the guy fleeing arrest, provided he hasn't hurt anyone. Don't Believe the Hype: We're Living In a Police State by Abu Jamal In the Name of the One and Only God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful... It was a hot Summer night in August, 1992 when Don Carlson heard someone trying to beat down his front door. The sound boomed through the front room, amplified by the fact that it was empty. Carlson had recently lost all his furniture to his ex-wife and now the pounding was echoing off the stripped floor and walls of his suburban San Diego house. Fearing for his life, he grabbed his handgun and fired two shots at the door. Neither shot even went through. Then the pounding got louder and the door started tearing off its hinges. Terrified, Carlson spun around, dropped the gun, and ran out of the room. A bullet tore into his thigh and sent him sprawling across the hallway floor. Staggering into his bedroom, he scooped up his cordless phone and started dialing "911" as he fell into a corner. Two more bullets ripped into his back. One of them splintered and collapsed his lung. "Don't move or I'll shoot you again," yelled a voice. Carlson was blacking out and figured he was dead. Then a man identified himself as a federal drug agent. He and several other men grabbed Carlson, handcuffed him, and left him on the floor bleeding as they began tearing what as left of his house apart. "Why would they do this to me?" he muttered, barely able to breathe. Carlson was a law-abiding citizen, a computer company executive who had never been in trouble with the law before. However, none of that seemed to matter. It hadn't stopped the dozen or so U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, Customs Service and San Diego police officers who broke in and shot him. They had been told he had 2,500 pounds of cocaine in the house. The tip came from an informant named Ronnie Edmond, an ex-drug dealer who was being paid $2,000 by the federal government to snitch on others in the drug trade. However, Edmond had lied about Carlson. He was no drug dealer. Edmond had picked the house because he thought it was empty and figured he could come up with another lie when the agents didn't find the cocaine. Don Carlson believes some of the agents who stormed his house back in 1992 wanted to kill him to cover up their mistake, but couldn't because so many different jurisdictions were there. "The only thing that saved me was that there were too many agents involved," he told the Post-Gazette for its series. As it was, Carlson spent the next eight weeks in a hospital hooked up to a respirator, then many more months in painful physical therapy trying to regain the use of his body. Although the government admitted he wasn't a drug dealer, they threatened to charge him with attempted murder for the shots he fired at the door in self-defense. Then a federal judge sealed the search warrant for the raid, preventing him from even learning why he had been targeted by the government in the first place. Carlson retained an attorney who filed a $20 million suit over the botched drug raid in December 1992. The government stalled, failing to even so much as respond to any court papers until ordered to do so by a judge. In 1995, after years of contentious negotiations, the government finally settled the case for $2.7 million. Carlson took the money and moved away from California to a gated community north of Dallas. He still has trouble breathing and a problem with his leg due to the gunshot wound. His doctor tells him the injuries will almost certainly shorten his life. Seven years after the raid, Carlson still could not believe he was almost killed because of a lying snitch who had cut a deal with the government. "[Edmonds] was a low-level street dealer, part-time criminal who created this thing to get money out of them," he told the Post-Gazette. For countless years, the line that "If you haven't done anything wrong, you don't have anything to be afraid of" has been used by law enforcement officials to trick people into bowing to warrantless searches and interrogations without their lawyers present. Ex-President Clinton used a variation on this a few days after two disturbed teenagers, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, shot up Columbine High School on April 20,1999. Speaking to a group of students at Virginia high school, Clinton urged them to report any classmates who exhibit anti-social behavior. "They won't get in trouble if they didn't do anything wrong," he assured them. Clinton was dead wrong. Innocent people are routinely arrested, tried, convicted and sent to jail. Hundreds of convicts have been proven innocent and set free in the last few decades, including close to 90 who were sitting on Death Row waiting to be executed for murders they didn't commit. "With little money available to dig up new evidence and appeals courts usually unwilling to review claims of innocence (they are more likely to entertain possible procedural trial-court errors), it's impossible to know just how many other prisoners are living the ultimate nightmare," Newsweek said in its June 2000 Special Report. Even convicted killers who are not ultimately proven innocent frequently have their convictions overturned on appeal, according to a study conducted by a team of layers and criminologists at Columbia University. Led by law professor James S. Liebman, the study reviewed all appeals from 1973, when the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty, to 1995. It found that two out of three convictions were overturned on appeal. Seventy-five percent of those who had their sentences set aside were later given lesser sentences after retrials, in plea bargains or by order of a judge. Many of those released from Death Row in recent years were exonerated by the Innocence Project, a New York-based public interest law firm started by famed criminal defense attorney Barry Scheck. The organization used newly developed DNA tests to prove they didn't do the crimes of which they were convicted. Several of these former inmates appeared at the National Conference on Wrongful Convictions and the Death Penalty, sponsored by a number of anti-death penalty organizations in early 1999. The conference examined many cases of innocent people who had been wrongly convicted of capital crimes and sentenced to death. In almost every instance, the conviction was based on perjured testimony from actual criminals seeking reduced charges or preferential treatment. Some snitches lied to avoid the death penalty for their own killings. In each case, it took many years for the wrongly-convicted defendants to clear their names. As University of California law professor Clifford S. Zimmerman put it, "Information mishandling and misconduct victimizes many innocent people. Examples of the resulting harm include: prosecutions based upon informant perjury; false arrests due to unreliable informants; non-disclosure of informant information by prosecutors in criminal proceedings; informant abuses promoted through rewards; and felonious activity committed with the knowledge and, at time, assent of the police and prosecutors." University of Oregon law professor Garret Epps is more blunt: "The truth is, everyone has something to hide. For most people, it's not a crime; it may be a health condition that could expose them to discrimination, and unfashionable political allegiance, a deeply held personal religious commitment, a painful family secret or jut a juvenile sense of humor. For each of us, there is something we choose not to share with people we do not know well. And when these personal foibles are stripped bare, the people exposed often feel a deep sense of violation and may lose friends, jobs or spouses." Theoretically, the Constitution and numerous Supreme Court rulings provide the necessary safeguards. Grand juries are supposed to double-check prosecutors, preventing them from bringing flimsy cases based on questionable testimony. Numerous Supreme Court rulings are intended to ensure that trials are fair and open. One of the most significant safeguards is the so-called Brady Rule, adopted by the Supreme Court in 1963. Under this rule, prosecutors must turn over to defendants any evidence which might help prove their innocence or show biases and criminal records of the witnessed used against them. However, in these days of interlocking computer databases, simply reporting someone to the authorities can destroy their lives. Consider what is happening to African Americans. The crack cocaine scare of the 1980's prompted police agencies across the country to build computer lists of African American gang members. The lists quickly expanded to include other, far more ambiguous categories, including gang associates, gang affiliates and even "gang affected" juveniles. Much of the information put into the computers was unverified gossip picked up during routine patrols. A mere accusation was all it took to open a file. If the police pulled over a car driven by a "suspected" gang member, all of the passengers became gang "associates." If a boastful teenager claimed to be in a gang, that's what the police accepted, with all of this brothers and sisters becoming "associates," "affiliates" or "affected" by his claimed membership. No one bothered to double-check the allegations; the information just went straight into the computers. This same system is in play now across the country. Even in the underground "Straight Edge" music scene in Salt Lake City, Utah, overzealous and over-armed Police form "Anti-Gang Taskforces." "Straight Edge" emerged in the early 1980's from the hardcore punk-rock music scene. Disenfranchised youth eschewed drug use, alcohol, smoking and promiscuity. This was viewed as "counter-culture" - an extension of its outgrowth of the punk scene - and became symbolized in the wearing of an "X" on the fist; as clubs that served alcohol wear these bands would play would put an "X" on the hand of anyone underage, in order to make it clear that no alcohol could be served to them. Straight Edgers began showing up to these venues already "X-ed up." From this different sub-categories would later emerge. However, in the mid, to late 1990's the "Anti-Gang" Salt Lake City Police would define this subculture as a "gang." Many of these "gang" members were completely non-violent people, many girls, even the daughter of the HEAD of the Anti-Gang taskforce was "Straight Edge." But ALL were lumped into this category and given the designation of "gang members." Similar rules were applied to these individuals as were applied to African American's in other cities. Perhaps it is because of Salt Lake City's notoriety for not having a large African American population. African descended peoples were not permitted into the Mormon priesthood until as late as June 9, 1978! So in the absence of this "external" enemy of the Police State, the Mormon Rangers; armed with assault rifles in each of their trunks, even Hummers and there very own "Anti-Gang Taskforce" - since gang violence is OBVIOUSLY such a rampant problem in Utah (note the sarcasm) - internalized their war on Freedom, and battle for "Total Information Awareness" (as the Bush Administration would later coin it). More recently, the Bush administration said on Wednesday, May 26th that it had credible intelligence suggesting that Al-Qa'ida is planning to attack the United States in the next several months, a period in which events like an international summit meeting and the two political conventions could offer tempting targets. Attorney General John Ashcroft said at a news conference that intelligence reports and public statements by people associated with Al-Qa'ida suggested that the terrorist group was "almost ready to attack the United States" and harbored a "specific intention to hit the United States hard." However, some intelligence officials, terrorism experts - and to some extent even Mr. Ashcroft's own FBI director, Robert S. Mueller III - offered a more tempered assessment, saying, "For the next few weeks we have reason to believe there is a heightened threat to the U.S. interests around the world.'' U.S. "interests" or the U.S.... which is it? The "interests" of the U.S. Government are very often not the "interests" of the American people. So are we being told that there is an imminent threat to OUR lives, or the lives of, perhaps, "Israeli's?" Frankly, there are many Americans who do not care about the latter, regardless of what the "interests" of the Bush Administration are. "There's no real new intelligence, and a lot of this has been out there already," said one administration official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "There really is no significant change that would require us to change the alert level of the country." John Ashcroft said the government did not have any information about where the terrorists might strike, and he said there was "extraordinary" security being put in place for events like a summit meeting of international leaders next month in Savannah, Ga., the Democratic convention in Boston in late July and the Republican convention in New York in late August and early September. So what exactly was the point? Ashcroft called for greater "public vigilance," especially in "looking out" for seven people sought by the FBI who are suspected of being Al-Qa'ida members or "sympathizers." Now the puzzle pieces begin to come together... We are not "looking out" for REAL "terrorists." We are looking out for those who may only "sympathize" with criminals. Basically, we are being asked to spy on our neighbors and report anything and anyone who does not fit into the cookie-cutter mold of Western Christianity. i'm like a lot of people i have met throughout the years. When i see movies like "Goodfellas" or "Heat," i have a strange "sympathy" for the main characters. Yes, i "sympathize" with these concocted members of organized crime. When i see a police chase on the news, i generally "sympathize" with the guy fleeing arrest, provided he hasn't hurt anyone. Why do i "sympathize" with them? It's anyone's guess isn't it? Maybe it's because i hate the Police State that is common to myself and that person on the TV screen SO MUCH that i sympathize with even criminals trying to elude capture from the Police State that i know also arrests, and in some cases frames, citizens whose only crime is political dissent. So for THIS should i be charged with money laundering? With extortion? With racketeering? With any number of charges related to organized crime? Of course not. "Sympathizing" with something does not imply guilt of said thing, anymore than it implies that Mick Jagger is the devil. The official said, there was "no real new intelligence." So does that mean that we just found out this information against these "suspects" based on "new FAKE intelligence?" What did we find it out from if there was "no real new intelligence?" Is the implication that we knew everything we know about these individuals before? Why then are we only now hearing about these dangerous "potential terrorists?" In reality, we are not being told to look out for SPECIFIC people at all. Of the seven people Ashcroft asked the public and law enforcement agencies to watch out for, the only one whose name had not been previously released was Adam Yahiye Gadahn, 25, who officials said is an American citizen from California. Adam Gadahn converted to Islam and is believed to have attended Al-Qa'ida training camps in Afghanistan several years ago, officials said. He is "thought" to have done "translation work for Al-Qa'ida" and was "associated" with Abu Zubayda, a senior Al-Qa'ida associate now imprisoned by the United States, they said. Remember those dubious categories, including gang "associates," gang "affiliates" and "gang affected" juveniles? Here they have popped up again; Doublespeak for the New World Order. Adam Gadahn was "thought" to have been an "associate" of Abu Zubayda, who was himself a senior "associate" of "Al-Qa'ida;" an organization ranking only 17th out of 20 before 9.11.2001 in terms of potential danger to the U.S. Interestingly "Al-Qa'ida" (the Base), was just the name of `Usama bin Ladin's old house; a meeting place for his particular "gang." Maybe someday Law Enforcement will catch on and start referring to the dangerous "Crib" terrorists (based on a group of criminals meeting at eat other's "Crib" before committing crimes). How do we know that Adam Gadahn is a member of "The Crib" or "Al-Qa'ida?" Is translating something now a terrorist act? Translating? We are not to believe he was translating any special information that would help to harm America citizens. We are not being asked to believe that he was translating plans to murder innocent civilians. No, he translated what were likely just pamphlets and small texts. Nothing that could do any more harm to American citizens than giving someone a paper cut, perhaps. Maybe these texts had nothing to do with killing Americans at all. Maybe... that is, MOST LIKELY they were merely political in nature; against the U.S. military presence in the Hijaz, Afghanistan and Iraq, or against the so-called state of "Israel." So because he translated something, because he agreed with the politics of some written words and then translated it for others to READ, for others to THINK about, he is now a card carrying member of a terrorist organization? This is a ridiculous and baseless claim. At least two of these seven terrorists identified by John Ashcroft as part of an "Al-Qa'ida cell" that is waiting to attack America this summer are already in jail. A respected website that holds databases on terror suspects lists Amer El-Maati as "incarcerated." http://www.trackingthethreat.com/db/ENT1711.htm Likewise, Aafia Siddiqui, a female former MIT student, was arrested in Pakistan over a year ago, according to NBC. http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/04/03/19137-1.html The "cell" that these individuals are said to belong to doesn't even exist. The Abu Hafs al-Masri group was described by the Boston Globe as a "phantom organization." Their researchers could find no evidence that the group was real. Imagine that; dishonest Big Government. Who would have thought? http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/03/13/officials_group_tying_self_to_blasts_may_not_be_real/ Each time a new terror threat is announced or a terror suspect is "captured," we discover that they have either already been arrested or they have been dead for a year or more. That is, except for the 9.11 suspects; many of whom are alive and well in foreign countries (despite allegedly having blown themselves up in the fiery inferno of the World Trade Center and Pentagon). What's that, you are noticing some inconsistencies? Never mind that, the last episode of "Friends" is on the television. The "WB" has a new spin off of American Idol. What are you doing wasting time reading the paranoid delusions of a Thought Criminal who is probably a terrorist himself? Get back to the "real" world of Rueben Stutter and Clay Aiken. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. In his press conference, John Ashcroft cited a number of upcoming events that "could be" "potential" targets, including the Group of Eight economic summit on Sea Island, Georgia, and the Democratic and Republican national conventions in Boston, Massachusetts, and New York, respectively. If i was a gambling man, i'd wager everything i have that none of these WILL BE ACTUAL targets. Ashcroft also warned that terrorists may not have a typical look and that "the face of al Qa'ida may be changing." It "may be changing" or it "is changing." Please let us know Mr. Ashcroft. i don't want to worry about it if it is only a "maybe." Only if it is something which there is credible evidence of will i worry myself into a fit of orange and red alerts over it. If not then keep your mouth shut and stop trying to frighten the public into electing Bush. "Our intelligence confirms al-Qa'ida is seeking recruits who can portray themselves as Europeans," he said. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/26/terror.threat/index.html So never mind all of the years of justification for the racial profiling of Arabs and people traditionally thought to be Muslim. Now you should look at EVERYONE as a potential terrorist. Ashcroft said the group adapts quickly to new security measures and may be recruiting operatives in their late 20s or early 30s and "may travel with families to lower their profile." Again, never mind the "Homeland Security" paranoia of UNmarried Muslims - you know the ones who were supposed to be unmarried because they were going to blow themselves and others up at any moment - now you should also be suspicious of Muslims with families... Basically, just consider ANY Muslim a potential terrorist, right? Strangely, Ashcroft said in this same press conference that of these seven "all pose a clear and present danger to America" and "should be considered armed and dangerous." http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/26/terror.threat.transcript/index.html What "clear" and "present" danger do these individuals pose? What "clear and present danger" do Amer El-Maati and Aafia Siddiqui present to us behind bars, since both have been imprisoned long before Ashcroft told us to call in tips as to their whereabouts? What is "clear" about this danger? What is "present" about a danger that has already passed? What "danger" exactly does Adam Gadahn pose to us... "clearly" that is? Is he going to translate us to death? He is considered "armed and dangerous" with what? A pen and paper? A computer? Armed with "sympathy" for the enemies of the United States? What is the meaning of this then? CNN inadvertently illustrates this in their follow up news report which headlines "Thousands of tips received on suspected seven; FBI: 'Please keep them coming'." The report reads: "WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI has received more than 2,000 tips from the public in the 24 hours after a news conference asking for help in locating seven people Attorney General John Ashcroft called al-Qa'ida operatives. "'Many thanks for your help on locating those pictured below,' the FBI Web site said Thursday. 'Over 2,000 tips were sent by mid-afternoon today on tips.fbi.gov alone. Please keep them coming.'" http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/27/terror.threat/index.html So there are seven of these guys... Two of them are already in prison and were in prison before the press conference. So five of them really. From these five there yielded more than 2,000 tips. So that is 400 tips for each one of these people. Do you think that ANY of these tips was ACTUALLY related to the individuals in question? i don't. If they were then they certainly were not very good tips as the FBI is still left empty handed... except for those two suspects which they had all along. Furthermore, New York City and Los Angeles officials told Reuters that they had not been informed by the government of any terror threat, despite the fact that people like Ashcroft and Ridge are all over the media fear mongering about the inevitability of an attack before the election. http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=KX1FUUUBRY3B2CRBAEKSFEY?type=domesticNews&storyID=5265538 So what is this all about? It is about a society of spies and snitches not unlike that of the Orwellian world of 1984 where political dissidents even feared talking in their sleep. It is about fear tactics that make people afraid to live. It is about a Big Brother, Orwellian, Ashcroftian Big Federalist Government that preys on the fear of terrorism it both orchestrates and brings upon itself by inciting the hatred of the world through its corrupt foreign policies, support for brutal regimes and dictators and use of weapons of mass destruction. It is about locking people up and throwing away the key if they "sympathize" with those who oppose the Bush Regime... that is, Administration. The 5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution reads: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Yet on June 9, 2002 Jose Padilla (`Abd'ullah Al-Muhajir), was transferred from control of the U.S. Department of Justice to military control. Since that time, Padilla has been held in a Navy brig in South Carolina. Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention. This is a clearly abominable violation of the democratic traditions purportedly upheld by the United States. This is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and a violation of the 6th Amendment (which reads): "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense." Padilla has been accused of plotting acts of terrorism, particularly the setting off of a "dirty bomb;" something which no one, no where has EVER even made so much as a prototype of. He has been accused of conspiring with members of... that's right, you guessed it, the Boogyman, catch-all, terrorist organization: al-Qa'ida, and planning to scout for that terrorist organization, using the benefits of his U.S. citizenship. President Bush has designated Padilla an "enemy combatant;" meaning that the Bush Regime can do whatever the Hell they want to and with him and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it... (unless you are a "terrorist" as well, in which case you're next). These are frightening accusations, and they may very well be true. However, accusations do not give the President the authority to lock someone away. According to the laws and traditions of the U.S., the way to determine who gets imprisoned is through the due process of a trial by jury. So much for that though. In this Brave New World, individual guilt is determined by the Administration. "Democracy" is brought to foreign lands by way of ousting an elected President and then APPOINTING a President that the Administration likes. Or for that matter, in this Brave New World, the President loses the popular vote by over half a million votes and is then APPOINTED to the Presidency by the Supreme Court! Jose Padilla may be a traitor and he may even be a terrorist. However, he was not captured in Afghanistan with a gun in his hand. He was arrested at Chicago O'Hare airport. If Jose Padilla can be held without criminal charges, strictly on the say-so of the President, then any American can be. That is tyranny and that is not the "America" many of us were sold in school. But prosecution for "terrorism" is not what the government has in mind for Padilla. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that Padilla may NEVER face trial. "Our interest is not in trying him and punishing him, our interest is in finding out what he knows." http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/11/dirty.bomb.suspect/ If he was REALLY planning on bombing Americans then why wouldn't we want him to be charged with a crime and be tried and punished? Obviously this admission makes it clear that this man never did ANYTHING, but obviously is being illegally detained by a Police State until he tells them the things that they want to hear. How did Padilla come to be in this situation that he finds himself in? The first tip about "dirty bomb" suspect Jose Padilla came about two weeks before his May 8 arrest, U.S. officials said. Officials said the information came from senior al-Qa'ida operative Abu Zubaydah, who is being held in U.S. custody. Zubaydah provided a physical description of Padilla but did not name him, officials said. A U.S. official said that Zubaydah appeared to be giving out minimal information, apparently assuming that authorities would not be able to figure out whom he was describing. Perhaps the fact that he was shot in the testicles might have had something to do with the "minimal information" he was giving out? Or perhaps, just like Ronnie Edmond, he was making up a story to buy himself time, so when they found out that he was making the whole thing up, he could then just invent another lie. Maybe Jose Padilla is just like Don Carlson. How can we tell? We can't. That's why American Law has maintained the criteria of guilt that one is "Innocent until PROVEN guilty." If Padilla is guilty, then the government should prove it. They should at least bring charges and evidence against him. The fact that they have not PROVES THEIR guilt; that THEY are guilty of falsely and ILLEGALLY imprisoning American citizens based on nothing but the hearsay of a terrorist trying to save himself, taking the spotlight off of his own crimes and pointing it onto someone else that he could not even produce so much as a name for. U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials took the vague description from Abu Zubaydah and then questioned other captured al-Qa'ida prisoners; using an FBI database to find the names of the suspect and another man - believed to be Pakistani - who is being held in Pakistan in connection with the same alleged plot to attack targets in the United States. Once they had the names, U.S. officials then obtained photographs of the two suspects and showed them to Zubaydah. He confirmed they were the two men involved, officials said. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/11/dirty.bomb.zubaydah/index.html That's all it took. That and a one page letter from the President stripping this American citizen of his Constitutionally "guaranteed" rights. All based upon hearsay from a man who is himself a criminal. A criminal who was shot in the testicles and blackmailed; "If you want some more painkillers, medical treatment, whatever, then you will give us some names, faces, anything" This is the world we are living in. There is no question as to the way things are. This is reality. The question is, what are you going to do about it? http://www.taliyah.org/articles/dbth2.shtml -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:17:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Organization: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: Poems on the list In-Reply-To: <001901c470fa$54dcade0$a0fdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel I don't know if I agree with your assessment of the success of alan's strategy, but I do want to point out that I'm not kvetching about it as so many others have, only positing a solution for those who are bugged by receiving his poems. I rarely have the temerity to dip into a Sondheim, but when I do, I've variously been bored, intrigued, amused, or annoyed, depending on my mood and the tone of the piece. I do think we're venturing into fairly new territory with the proliferation of all these lists, blogs, and whatnot -- there really is no limit to how much cybercrud can come washing into your box every day. Poets like Alan push the envelope by their very prolificacy as much as their hybrid forms; I don't know if I'd relish receiving daily poems from even a poet I LOVE, let alone one I'm ambivalent about. And speaking only for myself, a poem in a flat white e-mail with lots of gobbledygook around it is probably the least appealing way to encounter it. Given that the FACT of receiving his daily missives is at least as irritating to some as HOW he writes them, I wonder how innovative etc. this actually makes him. But I don't have the answer. DH -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel Weishaus Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:17 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Poems on the list Alan Sondheim must be doing something right, because there's more discussion on at least his strategy than on anyone else on this list. The measure of his success is that, like all progressive artists of the past, he exasperates and irritates some people. Whether his work will be known a decade from now is in question, as it is for everyone's work. But by being overproductive, Alan forces the issue of neglect. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hadbawnik" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Poems on the list > I'd just like to point out, for those of you using Microsoft Outlook > or some other such program to receive e-mail -- and even Yahoo has > this feature now -- it's very easy to create folders and filters that > re-direct e-mail "from" a certain person (or group) to a certain > folder. So if Alan's or any other person's posts are so offensive to > you, all you have to do is create a rule in your settings and have > them filtered directly into your trash can. A little bit of work, yes, > but even easier in the long run than dragging and dropping or hitting > the delete key. > > If it's the very IDEA of Alan or Nudel or whoever clogging the list > with poems or rants or what-have-you, that strikes me as more of a > protocol issue which inches dangerously close to censorship at worst > and exclusion at best. > > best, > > DH > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Rodney Phillips > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:42 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Poems on the list > > After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to say, not only are we > now subjected to two or three Sondheim poems every day, others are > responding in kind with their poems. I wonder if you could just share > them back channel with each other. Seems not to be really very well > mannered to make us all page quickly through them (they really are not > very interesting). > Posts and threads such as the Family poetry thread are on the other > hand fascinating and what the list should be about. > Thanks > Rodney Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:21:00 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: FW: Rafah appeals: Are You There?! Please read and forward Comments: To: Britpo , Poetryetc In-Reply-To: <20040723214644.42420.qmail@web14826.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ------ Forwarded Message From: Rafah today Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:46:44 -0700 To: info@absradio.com.au Subject: Rafah appeals: Are You There?! Please read and forward Dear friend: Rafah children appeal to the world:" Stop the daily incursions against our camps" "stop demolishing houses policy" Have you heard the yelling of Rafah children? Does the time came to get out from that international silence?!" Rafah Children appeal to you to spread their voice and to publish about the plights, will you let them down?! Please see Rafahtoday and forward to your friends, government, and all your people and let them know about what is happining here. please visist : www.rafahtoday.org Rafah Today Gaza News Special reports About Rafah Home demolitionsHomeless familiesDeaths & woundedSnapshots Links Cartoons Messages/ContactHome --------------------------------- October 1: Mohammed's younger brother Issam was seriously injured and was taken to the hospital about a week ago. His leg was amputated and he is undergoing medical treatment. And on October 18: Mohammad's younger brother, Hussam Al-Mouhagir [17 yrs old], was killed by the Israeli army today. Hussam was sitting at home when he was shot in the face, chest, back, legs. He had nothing to do with any violent or even political movement. Hussam's crime is that he was a Palestinian. The webmaster Mohammed's interview with Stefan Christoff, CKUT Radio Montreal, 18 May 2004 Click on this link to download and listen RAFAH TODAY Click here to view previous reports [input] [input] [input] Friends, thanks to the help of supporters, we have finally succeeded in creating a means for donations for Mohammed. Please help support Mohammed's mission: he needs money for the Internet access, for telephone bills, for cameras, for his vest, and for his daily support. If you have made use of Mohammed's many and invaluable pictures, or if you are requesting to use a picture, please consider a donation. If Mohammed and his reports have affected your life and are useful to you, please consider a donation to help him continue his exposure of crimes committed against Palestinians. The webmaster --> --------------------------------- 23 July 04 Laila, Jamil's sister weeping when she heard what happened to her brother who was killed He insisted on putting the Palestinian flag amidst the rubble of his demolished house in Block "O" area in Rafah refugee Camp, and an Israeli soldier responded with 7 bullets in different parts of his body. 17 year old Jamil Al Farmawi died, as Israel refused to give permission to the ambulance to bring his body back to his family, and let it stay in the rubble of his house for 24 hours. Al Framwai family is still living in a shelter in UNRWA school. His family consists of 33 members all of whom live in the classroom of Al Khansa school after demolishing their home in Block "O" area. His mother was overwhelmed with sadness when she heard about the killing of her son under the rubble of their demolished home.. At the same moment of Al Farmwai funeral, shooting continued near the borderline and a 4 year old boy was killed.. Over 15 tanks, 4 bulldozers and two apache warplanes participated in the latest heavy incursion leaving 22 demolished houses in Al Brazil and Al Salam neighborhood, and 4 houses in Al Shuaa't district in Rafah. Palestinian sources said there were 36 new families among the homeless families sheltered in schools. Abu Mohammed Al Shaer (50), a man living in a school, said that as soon as the bulldozers and the tanks invaded the camp they all went to hide inside their houses, but a few hours later they were surprised that tens of soldiers with their police dogs invaded their homes, insulting and abusing them. "They left the house but not before destroying the furniture," he said. In the early morning, around 6 o'clock in the morning a very loud bomb exploded in one of the buildings, then the tanks and bulldozers withdrew from the invaded areas. Rafah Municipality, relief teams and medical workers went quickly to the area and found that the bulldozers succeeded in breaking water pipes, and now there is a mixture of clean drinking water and the sewage system water. In an interview with the manger of water and sewage system department at Rafah municipality, Ashraf Ghoneem, he said: "Our workers went in the early morning to fix problem before a health crisis occurs. It is clear that the Israeli Army deliberately made such troubles in the infrastructure." R elatives of 17 year old Jamil Al Farmwai weeping when the body of Jamil was brought to his family. --------------------------------- 20 July 04 BREAKING NEWS: The Apaches Warplanes shelling the houses of the civilance houses in Hay Al Salam neighborhood by heavy bullets and rockets. _________ Waving the Japanese flag "Hey boys listen! I have a brilliant idea to get out our hand-carts, it's the Japanese flag which might be the only that which finds respect from the troops and can stop the shooting at us "said one of the 10 boys who was protesting an Israeli bulldozer trying to destroy their hand- carts that they use to help in carrying the passenger's baggage and get some money in return 1 shekel (20% of 1 US dollar). "That hand-cart is my life and destroying it means destroying my family's life as well" said one of the children who could not continue his speech to me because three bullets hit the wall that was only two meters away from us. The children began encouraging the idea of holding the Japanese flag. They found it the only hope that might keep them safe, stop the shooting towards them and bring the hand-carts. Unfortunately, the Japanese flag did not protect them, because when they came closer to the Israeli militant jeep and the bulldozer which was breakikng their hand-carts, the soldiers in the jeep began shooting towards them. Nevertheless the children insisted more and more and got closer and closer to the jeep to bring their hand-carts, but a loudspeaker came from the jeep in broken Arabic accent saying: "Leave from here or I will shoot you." The boy answered:" Not without my cart.? Hilmi, a 14 year old boy answered. The soldier again asked the boy to leave but he answered him answered him by saying:? It's my family's only income, the only way I can bring food to them all.? The bullets came of course and they all had to flee with the militanry jeep following them and surrounding them in an olive grove. All the children had to then flee from the olive grove and to jump out of that high iron bar and barbed wires. The boys were all able to escape. Children fleeing --------------------------------- 19 July 04 Injured people from the people who were participating in the demonstration against Musa Arafat appointment as a general chief in Gaza Strip and West Bank It is nearly 8:20 in the evening and getting darker. A demonstration is just strating after militant groups sparked a serious internal PA crisis, that moved to the streets. Thousands demonstrated against the newly appointed head of national security. Thousands demonstrated Saturday night in Rafah, protesting against Palestinian President Yasser Arafat?s decision to appoint his nephew Musa Arafat as the head of national security forces. Protesters accused Musa Arafat of corruption. Under the pressure of a series of abductions, Arafat decided to unify all of his security devices in 3 only: police, national security, and intelligence. Arafat replaced Ghazi Jabali, who earlier on Friday was abducted and then released, with Saeb Al-Ajez. Appointing his nephew Musa Arafat as the head of national security created an uproar within Fatah, and among the public in Gaza Strip. 14 people were in the clashes between demonstrators and PA loyal member to Mussa Arafat in the Palestinian Authority. Tens of demonstrators tried to torch Rafah inelligence headquarters during clashes by exchange fire and stones between the masked and angry people from the militant Fateh wing Al Aqsa Brigades and some loyal and supporters of the newly appointed chief intelligence Musa Arafat, and they continued the whole last night and ended by 14 facilities including Reuter?s photographer Ahmed Baba. A similar demonstration took place by Fateh movement's angry people and others in all the camps of Gaza City, as in Khanyounis, demonstrators torched the intelligence headquarters. The demonstrators accused the newly appointed chief Musa Arafat by corruption. In Khanyounis also Abu Arish wing in Fateh movement announced that four French workers were kidnapped from the headquarters of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in the center of the town. A few hours later, the same wing released the four French people under pressure from President Aarfat, as the mentioned wing excused that kind of kidnapped as ? a way of pressure on Arafat to remove some corrupted chief in Gaza? Musa Arafat said to the journalists in Gaza during a press conference that he does not intend to resign, describing the protests against his appointment as a summer cloud that will disappear soon. On the political side, The commander of Palestinian navey Juma Ghali, the head of the Preventive Security, Rashid Abu Shbak, and commander of the General Security Amin Al-Hindi, submitted their resignation in protest to the appointment of Musa Arafat. This morning, President Arafat response to the Gaza Strip?s street by annulling the appointment of Mussa Arafat as a national security chief of Gaza Strip and West Bank and replaced Musa Aarfat by the previous chief Abedelrzek Al Majaedeh. --------------------------------- 15 July 04 Injured child at Abu Yousif Al Najjar hospital in Rafah. He was injusted during random shelling at buildings A 16 year old girl has been killed by Israeli bullets in Rafah during the daily shelling in Rafah.. Right before dawn we heard ambulances near Al Shboura neighborhood in Rafah Camp carrying injured people during the random shelling.. Abu Yousif Al Najjar hospital said that 16 year old girl Halima Abu Samhadanah was shot in the chest, while a few other people were also injured in the same area as a result of rockets falling on civilian buildings in AL Shaboura camp which is one kilometer away from the borderline. Slowly killing us "They are killing us slowly with that crossing point" said an old woman waiting in the crossing point of Rafah. She had been waiting there for many days under the hot sunshine in order to travel to Egypt for an urgent heart surgery. Rafah crossing point is the only place where people of Gaza Strip can get out. Everyday hundreds of people wait there for permission to travel abroad. Rafah children hiding during an incursion --------------------------------- 11 July 04 The IOF attacked Rafah from the South, Khanyounis in the Middle and Beit Hanon in the South of Gaza Strip. Everywhere you go, you find the effects of the Israeli offensive in all Gaza. The Israeli troops invaded Al Brazil Camp by Apache warplanes with over 15 tanks and 4 bulldozers leaving 5 demolished buildings and a large number of demolished shops. Four women and a child were injured during random shelling from Israeli posts based on the borderline. Tahani Keshta (30) injured in her leg, Halimah Nana (26) by an explosive bullet in different parts of her body, Alia Al Romi (22) injured in her backbone, and 65 year old Suad Fujuo injured in her left leg and left bleeding for along time bleeding on the ground. Medical sources in Abu Youisf Al Najjar said that 4 year old Sahar Fujuo was injured in her head. In addition Osama Saker (24), and Anas Abu Armanah (26) were also injured.. In Rafah now there is a military buildup with more militanry tanks and bulldozers, in addition to the apaches and the fires that they shoot at night? "They demolished my house, but they will never destroy my will," a 38 year old man said while collecting what remained from his demolished building in Al Brazil camp in Rafah.. "What is your message to the world?" I asked an old woman who was busy collecting what remained from her demolished building. She answered: "I have been talking and for so long complaining and appealing to the world but there are no results and not even a condemnation at least." From the catastrophe of damaged Rafah to Khanyounis, where Israeli military troops invaded Al Nimsawi neighborhood and the Western Camp and demolished 25 houses and many people were injured and killed.. The began in a late hours late hours by shelling the civilians homes by Apaches and not allowing ambulances to transfer the injured and killed people into hospitals.. This morning also in Khanyounis, the Israeli military forces killed a 14 year old boy, Hamadah Al Shaer. Al Shaer was killed in his house during shelling from the Israeli settlement of Jaded which is based in Khanyounis. Ten people were killed!! In Biet Hanon, there was a real massacre and it is continuing up till now by Apache warplanes, bulldozers and tanks. They killed 10 people and tens of people were injured, in addition to a very large numbers of demolished houses and trees.. Those who were killed during the incursion are: Yusif Al Zanin, Naim Al Kafarnah, Naser Aldeen Abu Harbid, Zaher Abu Harbid, Nahed Abu Awdah, Hamed Abu Awdah, Jamil Al Kafarnah and Jamilah Al Kafarnah, in addition to two unidentified bodies. Eyewitnesses say that the Israeli Occupation Forces are invading Beit Hanon for the 9th day and people are not permitted to get out of their homes, in addition to more killing and injured people. Running out of food and water Beit Hanon has no food, water, nor electricity, and is under complete militanry closure. People are not allowed to get out from their homes to bring food... Israeli troops are still invading Beit Hanon up till this moment and the area has so many killed and injured people who cannot go to hospitals because ambulances and relief workers are unable to get to the injured and dead.. Breaking News by phone from one of the journalists there: "The Israeli bulldozers and tanks are coming towards Jabalya Refugee Camp. Israeli Apaches are shelling buildings right now, and soldiers are occupying the house of Nasser Al Zanin and had turned it into a militanry barrack." A father was injured with his child and another man in a shelling that targeted a white Mercedes taxi, which was in Salaheldeen Street in Gaza City.. Two rockets fell from the Israeli warplanes towards the taxi, leaving the three injured: 5 year old Mohammed Amjad Jaber, his father Amjad Youisf Jaber (32), and (30) year old Ibrahim Tabet. Talking about evacuation plan from Gaza The media is now publishing about the Israeli pull out from the Gaza Strip. The Israeli military forces just began digging a new street near Kfar Daroom settlement, in addition to closing Abu Holi checkpoint and forcing people to stand under the hot sunshine. They also arrested 6 people at the checkpoint.. A Palestinian man walks near the demolished shops in Al Brazil neighborhood For more photos from Beit Hanon please click here --------------------------------- 6 July 2004 The moment that Yassir's father arrived the hospital after he has been told about the killing of his son, as some relatives trying to help him after he fell down when he saw his son dead Misery, blood, tears, suffering, blackness, sorrow and fear The difficult moment of farewell: Yassir's sister after she arrived at the hospital mourning her brother who was taken to the morgue of Abu Youissf Al Najjar hospital. Misery, blood, tears, suffering, blackness, sorrow and fear and real catastrophe, which no one has seen before nor any mind can imagine. I don?t know what to do or how to begin to describe what I have seen in the past few days in Rafah and especially for the family of Yassir Al Arja (25) killed by the Israelis in random shelling. I'm afraid that I might not do this family justice by not conveying their feelings that day when they received the news that their son was killed.. Farewell: Farewells break the hearts and minds. This family is considered one of the poorest families in Rafah.. Yassir's sister arrived at the hospital hitting herself after she heard the news that her brother was killed by the Israeli Occupation Forces.. His mother, father and brother where grieving and weeping the whole day.. Yassir was killed while helping his relatives take out what remained of their damaged furniture. He was killed immediately in the rubble of the building.. Yassir's mother arrived the hospital crying and saying: "For 25 years I have been bringing him up and his end comes with a cheap bullet?" He was playing soccer: A few hours before Yassir's murder, 9 year old Mohamed Zaran was killed while playing football.. His friend in the hospital said: "He was kicking the ball in the other goal but had no time because while holding the ball, the bullet was faster." The child was weeping while telling his stroy:" We were playing soccer and a bullet hit Mohammed leaving him on the ground where made there was a large pool of blood." Mohammed wanted to be an international football player to represent Palestine in the world cup when he grew up. Massacres again!!!!!!! As usual Apache warplanes did not leave Rafah's skies. The IOF targeted Al Brazil neighborhood in Rafah, leaving 16 completely and partially demolished buildings, 7 shops, and also electricity providers. Many more were injured and dead. This morning, thousands of people participated in the funeral of two people who were killed by the IOF: 4 year old Hayam Al Saher, and 28 year old Refaat Abu Amrah.. Ten minutes ago, a Palestinian lady, Samah Al Shaer was injured in her right leg and transferred to the hospital, and a young man Abdelsalam Al Jarbou was injured in his left arm. Those two civilians were injured during the continuous shelling in the buildings. No ones knows what the night carry for Rafah families... you might have seen someone in the street, but don?t be surprised if you find the next day his/her funrel. Killing people has become a normal thing... --------------------------------- 1 July 2004 By telephone from Mohammed: The IDF demolished the internet providers and now there is no internet at all in Gaza Strip - in addition to lack of electricity. Also most of the phones are damaged and Gaza strip is divided into three parts. Lack of food. Click here to view previous reports --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:18:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: unlikely Subject: Re: Manifestos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try Usenet, accessable through http://groups.google.com. A search for "manifesto" brings up 410,000 results. Enjoy. -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org -----Original message----- From: Haas Bianchi saudade@COMCAST.NET Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:18:20 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Manifestos > I have a question, I am working something with Manifestos as a focus, poetic > and other wise and I am having trouble finding stuff after the mid 1990's > anyone out there that has access to or has an manifestos written after say > 1995 send them my way > > saudade@comcast.net > > R > > > > > > > Raymond L Bianchi > chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ > collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:19:58 -0400 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Organization: BlazeVOX [books] Subject: Re: Poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Joel. And for that Lori's stance. Besides his texts, I, for one, enjoy how Alan angers so many with his posts. I find it reassuring to see his texts everyday, it's like seeing the newspaper has published another edition, and it is, indeed a brand new day. Hazah to Alan! Best, Geoffrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hadbawnik" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Poems on the list > Joel > > I don't know if I agree with your assessment of > the success of alan's strategy, but I do want to > point out that I'm not kvetching about it as so > many others have, only positing a solution for > those who are bugged by receiving his poems. I > rarely have the temerity to dip into a Sondheim, > but when I do, I've variously been bored, > intrigued, amused, or annoyed, depending on my > mood and the tone of the piece. > > I do think we're venturing into fairly new > territory with the proliferation of all these > lists, blogs, and whatnot -- there really is no > limit to how much cybercrud can come washing into > your box every day. Poets like Alan push the > envelope by their very prolificacy as much as > their hybrid forms; I don't know if I'd relish > receiving daily poems from even a poet I LOVE, let > alone one I'm ambivalent about. And speaking only > for myself, a poem in a flat white e-mail with > lots of gobbledygook around it is probably the > least appealing way to encounter it. Given that > the FACT of receiving his daily missives is at > least as irritating to some as HOW he writes them, > I wonder how innovative etc. this actually makes > him. But I don't have the answer. > > DH > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > Joel Weishaus > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:17 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Poems on the list > > Alan Sondheim must be doing something right, > because there's more discussion on at least his > strategy than on anyone else on this list. The > measure of his success is that, like all > progressive artists of the past, he exasperates > and irritates some people. Whether his work will > be known a decade from now is in question, as it > is for everyone's work. But by being > overproductive, Alan forces the issue of neglect. > > -Joel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Hadbawnik" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: Poems on the list > > > > I'd just like to point out, for those of you > using Microsoft Outlook > > or some other such program to receive e-mail -- > and even Yahoo has > > this feature now -- it's very easy to create > folders and filters that > > re-direct e-mail "from" a certain person (or > group) to a certain > > folder. So if Alan's or any other person's posts > are so offensive to > > you, all you have to do is create a rule in your > settings and have > > them filtered directly into your trash can. A > little bit of work, yes, > > but even easier in the long run than dragging > and dropping or hitting > > the delete key. > > > > If it's the very IDEA of Alan or Nudel or > whoever clogging the list > > with poems or rants or what-have-you, that > strikes me as more of a > > protocol issue which inches dangerously close to > censorship at worst > > and exclusion at best. > > > > best, > > > > DH > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf > Of Rodney Phillips > > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 9:42 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Poems on the list > > > > After six years "lurking" on the list, I have to > say, not only are we > > now subjected to two or three Sondheim poems > every day, others are > > responding in kind with their poems. I wonder if > you could just share > > them back channel with each other. Seems not to > be really very well > > mannered to make us all page quickly through > them (they really are not > > very interesting). > > Posts and threads such as the Family poetry > thread are on the other > > hand fascinating and what the list should be > about. > > Thanks > > Rodney Phillips > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:42:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: In defense of Love like Rilke's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When discussing Love and Poetry recently with a friend, she made the remark, "Men aren't capable of writing about love as it actually exists, especially in poetry." I believe I DID roll my eyes, and went on to defend Love for any gender. It made me crazy to think Love wouldn't have a voice "as it actually exists" unless interpreted through gender-specific lips. "Rilke was a liar, for instance," she said. This is the direction of the argument? Yes, and to pour concrete around it, Bell Hooks was quoted, slandering Rilke's ability to get Love "as it actually exists." When I challenged that NOT EVEN Bell Hooks would make such a ridiculous statement about Rilke, I was presented proof. Here's a quote from her book "all about love," published a couple of years ago: "Men often write about love through fantasy, through what they imagine is possible rather than what they concretely know. We know now that Rilke did not write as he lived. That so many words of love offered us by great men fail us when we come face to face with reality." Is this argument real? Is it really an argument might be a better question. Who CARES how Rilke may or may not have lived his life. And by the way, any evidence either way would only be smearing highlights. A poet is not the summation of highlights of his or her life anymore than Bell Hooks is! What? Rilke didn't REALLY know about REAL love because he wasn't gushing the goblet 24/7? We are all of us constantly exchanging, transferring and recreating an abundance of different emotional responses to the world all day long. It's impossible, even archaic to box an individual into One emotional category. The best we have to go on is the most examples of a particular emotion expressed. But none of this defines an entire life. Not only that, it's simply too easy to put poets on the chopping block because they didn't always live as some THINK they SHOULD be. Look at Pound for instance, his entire life written off by some, as though he came out of the womb screaming Heil Hitler! Instead of questioning how he lost his way for a time. And what about all those poems coming out of him when he was loving/dating/SEEING H.D., etc...? The injuries of this world constantly amaze, mostly because they are where Love can be traced back to its absence. But NOT all the time, there's too much in all of us to snap judge, and Bell Hooks of all humans must be aware of these things. Dear Bell Hooks, Rilke's words do not fail us. But your judgements fail Rilke, and poetry, and us. I do NOT doubt Rilke saw how Love actually exists. That he had concete experience to move his poems. Without a doubt Pound also knew it. No, not all the time, just like any of us. But man, I'd take Pound or Rilke as my Love Daddy any day! And yes, I'm basing this on fantasy of how Love could be. But it doesn't mean I have no concrete to stand on. CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Charles Thomas Subject: Re: poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! horizons above the weary world exchange obstacles for risen news unfold, or post o ye masters above the horizons, worldly wears rise exchanges newly be-stabled post, ye unfolded masters world worn nymph in her orisons obstinate old prayers arisen to change folded postmasters for ye old I can't believe it's not butter better worse worst brat vurst the viper is spreading....... Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! PLEASE RESTORE ALL INITIAL CAPITAL LETTERS there is no kapital at all okei bai k.o. buy ..................................................................................................... UNFOLD OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YE p o s t m a s t e r s 1 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 the prime directive: ? Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! Tijuana Gringo www.geocities.com/tijuanagringo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:55:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Charles Thomas Subject: Re: poems on the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! horizons above the weary world exchange obstacles for risen news unfold, or post o ye masters above the horizons, worldly wears rise exchanges newly be-stabled post, ye unfolded masters world worn nymph in her orisons obstinate old prayers arisen to change folded postmasters for ye old I can't believe it's not butter better worse worst brat vurst the viper is spreading....... Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! PLEASE RESTORE ALL INITIAL CAPITAL LETTERS there is no kapital at all okei bai k.o. buy ..................................................................................................... UNFOLD OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YE p o s t m a s t e r s 1 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 the prime directive: ? Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! Tijuana Gringo www.geocities.com/tijuanagringo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps this arguement is generally a difference in how the two of you view love in it's ideal expression ; perhaps this is a gendered thing. Her comment strikes me right off as not a serious comment about poetry, but another arrow in the notorious "Battle of the Sexes." > When discussing Love and Poetry recently with a friend, > she made the remark, "Men aren't capable of writing about > love as it actually exists, especially in poetry." This seems to me to be, offhandedly, ridiculously sexist. Men have been writing poetry for thousands of years. . . and more of the most famous love poems are by men. In any case, of the millions/billions of love poems written by men, to evaluate them all as not-accurate, and men as "Not Capable" seems outright ridiculous right away. In fact she started out "Men aren't capable of writing about love as it actually exists...", not even singling out poets. I would guess that almost anyone who read a great deal would be able to refute this, but continuing on... > I believe I DID roll my eyes, and went on to defend Love > for any gender. I would vomit on the spot. > It made me crazy to think Love wouldn't > have a voice "as it actually exists" unless interpreted > through gender-specific lips. I think you've hit the nail on the head -- her love "as it actually exists" is a gender specific idea, and therefore men don't seem to be able to write about it. Perhaps she should consider that love "as it actually exists" isn't necessarily the same experience for everyone. > "Rilke was a liar, for instance," she said. This seems like another strange phrasing -- that something that is "fantastical" or non-concrete, in the context of poetry, should be lying. Can poetry lie? Does poetry lie? > This is the direction of the argument? Yes, and to pour > concrete around it, Bell Hooks was quoted, slandering > Rilke's ability to get Love "as it actually exists." I think she, like e.e. cummings, does not like her name to be capitalized. ("bell hooks") > When I challenged that NOT EVEN Bell Hooks would > make such a ridiculous statement about Rilke, I was > presented proof. Here's a quote from her book > "all about love," published a couple of years ago: > > "Men often write about love through fantasy, through > what they imagine is possible rather than what they > concretely know. We know now that Rilke did not > write as he lived. That so many words of love offered > us by great men fail us when we come face to face > with reality." > > Is this argument real? Is it really an argument might > be a better question. Who CARES how Rilke may or > may not have lived his life. And by the way, any Well, I suppose what they're saying is that Rilke's poetry is not an expression of real feeling. And if one is looking for a poetry of "honesty", then they might CARE. In any case, I don't think that even if Rilke did not write how he lived, that makes him a liar -- no, that makes him a writer. If you lie in your personal life or your letters, that it is far different from telling a different story, a different narrative, in your work than is your life. > evidence either way would only be smearing highlights. > A poet is not the summation of highlights of his or her > life anymore than Bell Hooks is! > > What? Rilke didn't REALLY know about REAL love > because he wasn't gushing the goblet 24/7? I don't think that they're saying Rilke didn't know love, but that those poems were not an expression of that love but of an ideal. > We are all of us constantly exchanging, transferring > and recreating an abundance of different emotional > responses to the world all day long. It's impossible, > even archaic to box an individual into One emotional > category. The best we have to go on is the most > examples of a particular emotion expressed. But > none of this defines an entire life. So what you're basically saying is what -- love is not a separable "emotion"? It's difficult to figure out if Rilke loved someone? I don't think if Rilke ever loved anyone is really the idea in question here -- the idea in question is whether Rilke's work was a realistic (versus fantastical) depiction of love, which obviously your female friend and bell hooks agree it is not. Are you saying that it is realistic? > Not only that, it's simply too easy to put poets on the > chopping block because they didn't always live as some > THINK they SHOULD be. Look at Pound for instance, > his entire life written off by some, as though he came > out of the womb screaming Heil Hitler! Instead of > questioning how he lost his way for a time. And what > about all those poems coming out of him when he > was loving/dating/SEEING H.D., etc...? Facts are facts though, Pound was a fascist... and I would judge him quite a bit for it. After a good deal of musing on this subject, I personally think the life of the poet is generally pretty irrelevant to the worth of the art. IN any case, I think your friend's supposition (not the "men aren't capable") but rather the suggested "men/Rilke (tend to) write about love ina fantastical /idealized way" has no real relation to any biographical look at Rilke. > The injuries of this world constantly amaze, mostly > because they are where Love can be traced back to > its absence. I have no idea what you are saying -- that most of the world's evils come from an absence of love? you are all over the page. > But NOT all the time, there's too much > in all of us to snap judge, and Bell Hooks of all humans > must be aware of these things. > > Dear Bell Hooks, Rilke's words do not fail us. But your > judgements fail Rilke, and poetry, and us. I think she was saying that the words fail women as a depiction of real love. I don't know what poem(s) she's referencing to specifically, so Ic an't say. > I do NOT doubt Rilke saw how Love actually exists. But if this is not displayed in his poetry (which you seem to agree to) -- how Love actually exists -- then how do you know? > That he had concete experience to move his poems. > Without a doubt Pound also knew it. No, not all the > time, just like any of us. But man, I'd take Pound or > Rilke as my Love Daddy any day! And yes, I'm > basing this on fantasy of how Love could be. > But it doesn't mean I have no concrete to > stand on. All things considered, it sounds like you two were having a pretty silly conversation -- she started off making a sexist statement then "proved" it by mentioning "even" Rilke was a "liar". She backs this up with one woman's quote saying that Rilke "fails us" as if this is proof for the entire male sex. Every time she reads a book, does she let it overtake her brain??? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:12:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: BBaabbaalloo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (some matches. for those who can't read this, a kind of dance) BBaabbaalloo Binary file WorldCam-040723-013539.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013559.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013718.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013803.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013825.jpg matches Suburbs notes:aalib in bsd, runs in shell and xwindow both venom.irc:echo : `&a. .a$$$a. a&$$aa a&$$$&asa&$$$$$$&sxa.. . : On the third day : Binary file WorldCam-040723-013539.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013654.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013658.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013732.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013758.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013815.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013820.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013839.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013855.jpg matches Binary file WorldCam-040723-013859.jpg matches BOTANIC GARDEN >> NEW YORK METROPOLITAN FLORA lynx_bookmarks.html:
  • lynx_bookmarks.html:
  • notes:-- cd with lawrence, one with cobbing etc. nq:hedges around torahs, antique languaging gibberish, virginities of all phoenix.irc:mmode $C -bbb $0 $1 $2 phoenix.irc:if ([$2]) {/mmode $C -bbb $0 $1 $2}{ phoenix.irc:if ([$1]) {/mmode $C -bb $0 $1}{ phoenix.irc:mmode $C +bbb $0 $1 $2 phoenix.irc:if ([$2]) {/mmode $C +bbb $0 $1 $2}{ phoenix.irc:if ([$1]) {/mmode $C +bb $0 $1}{ venom.irc:^assign quoat16 VeNoM v2.01 - Is that a rabbit? venom.irc:^assign quoat44 VeNoM v2.01 - Is that a rabbit? venom.irc:mmode $C -bbb $0 $1 $2 venom.irc:if ([$2]) {/mmode $C -bbb $0 $1 $2}{ venom.irc:if ([$1]) {/mmode $C -bb $0 $1}{ venom.irc:mmode $C +bbb $0 $1 $2 venom.irc:if ([$2]) {/mmode $C +bbb $0 $1 $2}{ venom.irc:if ([$1]) {/mmode $C +bb $0 $1}{ venom.irc:^alias bballop { _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit drn steps up to the plate & knocks it outta the park midnite....strike 3.....drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: in the world we know, everything is invisible MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed in the world we know, everything is invisible http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/morb.mov http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/visitor.mov the visitor arrives and i am there watching the web camera i do nothing to have to do with the arrangement the woman arranges things in foreground and background dark matter, strings, eleven dimensions, neutrinos, proton decay more kaon anomalies, the temporary stasis of these eyes neural circuitry as i glean images just for the moment, just for the odd or even second of everyone in their parts, of radiations through them through the wires, through these minds, these bodies through the thinking and the writing of this writing _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:13:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit of course poetry lies all the time so self-righteous gad for instance the following what ever it may mean let's do it again ( mavis staples @ castle clinton ) black lab i tail wag s e e n g eye dog 'll take you there un broken a sum cast tale-a-ton is weight a circle --- jackfed lint one dark cloud come & gone < yesterday > ta bldings look like toys she remarks ta ta ta ta sat stale cat clit(av)ism staple/staple taps spat less/lest ( have a little) - faith ) plate turm oil term / . . > oil dis re spect g-d said "he" would take care of us aslet linet "he" is not sleeping sum mus tem por ary seeing-eye dog moves her hand expressively is a little woman ex - pat on its shiney head seeing eye god but you knew that already dog is not sleeping dog is not sleeping put hand on put hand on mouth take yer sheet off boy make a friend. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:49:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Elizabeth Willis' new chapbook! Comments: To: core-l@listserv.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit * * * Atticus/Finch is pleased to announce the release of its second chapbook: Elizabeth Willis’ _Meteoric Flowers_. Printed in an edition of 200 copies with elegantly letter-pressed covers,_Meteoric Flowers_ is the first new work from Willis since 2003’s Turneresque. In this new volume, Elizabeth Willis’ lyric maelstroms are at once rooted in a lost pastoral economy, dripping with the lush language of the green-world, “the horns of august, the / downward tree...The nerve- like system in the page,” only to dismantle the bucolic from the inside out. Jack Collom writes of _Meteoric Flowers_: Elizabeth Willis is one of the very best young writers in America. “The word ‘delicious’ has never been redder.” That’s her, slicing delight into danger, but we can say it of “Meteoric Flowers” too. Her prose- poems are box-shaped but inside the box she accomplishes passionately crazy-like-a-fox swirls and connections. Listen to her bop speech rhythms: “Blossom machines. Sure, I’ll carry your latest worry, sorry it’s not dripping in your favorite green” (from the title piece). Which leads omnidirectionally to nature: Within the near-squares a whole lot of curves are thrown: continual yokings of off-opposites, forming a kind of surreal critique of ourselves vis-à-vis the rest of it. Solid is suddenly revealed as liquid. Whipcracks occur but mystery lingers. A book that leaves you gasping for more.” And a word from Lisa Jarnot: I think that these poems were written by William Blake upon his return from deep space, or maybe they were written by my friend Elizabeth Willis who moves at the speed of light and takes dictation from the angels. It’s even possible that these meteoric flowers have descended to permanently reconfigure the brain waves of all sentient life on earth. These chapbooks are only available via mail-order and only six bucks! Geez! To order, please send six dollars (well concealed cash/check) and a nice note to: Michael Cross Atticus/Finch Chapbooks SUNY Buffalo 306 Clemens Hall Buffalo NY 14260-4610 Atticus/Finch is committed to publishing important new work in elegant, affordable editions (even by poets’ standards). We are likeable, and we share your philosophy (whatever it may be) because we want you to buy our books. Bye now. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:25:20 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brighton the sea stares at us .... 5 dollar cappachino 2 dollar coffee like salt at Tatiania's .... the gulls still as rocks or bowling pins ass to the wind huddle inside the storm .... nothin' to say keeps sayin' it .... double jeapordy 'what is i'll take any vowel, Alex' .... gone gull ere storm break fly on home to emptiness... 4:00... o where is Jim Behrle, Tom Bailey?...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:28:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: its time to act In-Reply-To: <1090651759.4102066fc73a4@mail3.buffalo.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward - thank you. http://transdada.blogspot.com/ In the last month we have seen the courts rule what gender our bodies=20 are, the senate and president try to impose who we can and can not=20 marry, the house of representatives limit the power of judges which are=20= there as protection against the majority. State after state is passing=20= state constitution amendments limiting the civil rights of queers, the=20= worse being Virginia. its time to act: volunteer, give donations, raise the discourse against homophobia,=20 transphobia and phallocentric christian domination of our bodies and=20 out life.. http://www.pflag.org/ http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/about/nhq/index http://www.transgenderlaw.org/index.htm http://www.aclu.org/ http://www.thetaskforce.org/support/index.cfm http://www.nclrights.org/ and others found @ http://transdada.blogspot.com/ ~ NOTICE: Radical Queer Convergence Space 5:00 pm - 7:00 pm, Saturday July 24, 2004 =A0=A0=A0Special Event City & State -Boston, Massachusetts Topic / Issue - Sexuality, Gender, & GLBT Location - Lucy Parsons Center, 549 Columbus Ave Sponsor - Radical Queers Description The Radical Queers Email: queersatthednc@riseup.net Visit and spread the word about our daily convergence space during the=20= DNC week: Sat, July 24th, Thurs, July 29th from 5-7pm at the Lucy Parsons Center, 549 Columbus Ave, in the South End. Join the Radical Queer Contingent throughout the week! Look for the Radical Queer patches or pink articles of clothing to find=20= and join the contingent at these events: Sunday, July 25, March at 12pm starting from the Boston Common to bring=20= the troops home now! Sunday, July 25, Jamaica Plain People's Party from 4-10pm across from=20 the Stony Brook T Station (Orange Line). Monday, July 26, Rally against the occupation of Palestine from 5-7pm=20 at the Designated Protest Zone?. Tuesday, July 27, Vigil from 7:30-9pm at Copley Square. Wednesday, July 28,=93 Rally and march against the proposed bio-terror=20= lab in the South End/Roxbury from 3-8pm. Start at Blackstone Park in=20 the South End (Washington & Brookline St). Thursday, July 29, Critical Mass bike ride, starts at 8am at Copley=20 Square. Thursday, July 29, Rally from 5-8pm near the Fleet Center. ******************************************************************** http://transdada.blogspot.com/ Saturday, July 24, 2004 -Florida Court of Appeal Invalidates Marriage But Rejects Mother's=20 Request to Deprive Transgender Father of=20 Parental Rights -A Radical Assault on the Constitution -Gay men kiss in front of G-G -Proposed marriage amendment has ramifications for court challenges -Stamp Honors Gay Writer James Baldwin -Hearing held on gay minister Friday, July 23, 2004 -Florida Court Rules Transsexual Marriage Invalid -House Tramples Constitutional Separation of Powers -Equality Florida launches voter mobilization effort -Fort Myers couple will challenge Florida's ban on gay marriage -Marriage Protection Act condemned on both sides of aisle -International anti-gay violence on the rise -Nepal: Sexual Rights Group at Risk of Closure -Sex education group meets gay activists -Anti-gay Senate candidate has two gay advisers -Shepard: colleges should welcome diversity -House votes to strip federal courts of jurisdiction over gay marriage -Europe Strives for Equality Across its Continent -Malta=92s first gay parade -Univisi=F3n execs and gay group tackle issues -Cop accused of assaulting gay officer http://transdada.blogspot.com/ ****************************************************** and please do not forget: @ "In words" http://transdada2.blogspot.com/ If you identify as or with Queer, gay, trans, bisexual, lesbian,=20 intersex, or just discriminated against in multiple systems of=20 institutionalized oppressions, submit* your: notes, essays,=20 interviews, letters, documents, rants, request for support, emergency=20 action needs or poems**to: ** terra1@sonic.net * Work may be in the body of the text, rft. or pdf. ** Final decision publication is based on the my personal ability of=20 deal with all the submission and my intention to make it as diverse as=20= possible. thank you kari edwards http://transdada.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: NYC happenings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I will be in New York for a conference from Sunday 7/25 to Thursday 7/29. I'd appreciate any information about poetry readings & other events, art exhibitions, etc., going on during that time. Does poetry fall into a deep slumber during the summer months or . . . Many thanks in advance for advice! Camille ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:28:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes, i feel you're correct that hooks and my friend are making the point from sexism but then again, if all is fiction well, what difference is gender? (not saying this to say what your point was but to further see how stupid the judgment) i'm already aware of the argument that all is fiction when dealing with writers (i don't necessarily believe it always is but i know poets who say it is) one of the things that i found especially interesting that Rilke --and Rumi by the way-- could be attacked by hooks because they were male living in "fantasy" and not coming to us from any "concrete" experience of love (this is my biggest problem, her all-seeing eye) yet she gives no examples of women poets who DO give us all what men seem to lack my point was that to have disdain for Rilke's poetry on Love because of how he lived his life is what's silly Love is too expansive to actually finger as "concrete" or "fantasy" who is to say that a fantasy is not based on some concrete --missing space in a life missing space because it had been filled possibly Love is something we all want and hopefully have or at least have had and yes, Pound's support of fascism was an awful thing. but i brought up Pound because to shuck his poems aside because of political beliefs (and of course actions), in a way, is a similar argument that hooks is making, in that, the man cannot be trusted to have actually MEANT or FELT the things he wrote based on information about the lived life. she simplifies the human condition in order to disregard we now know --for instance-- a very different view of Hitler, with this bizarre and extraordinary documentary recently released on video, the interview with his secretary. i recommend that everyone see it. why? because she brought him out of the black and white footage, and made Hitler scarier than ever in a way, because she made him human, and of course it's much much easier and comfortable to keep him at bay, keep him a demon. and yes, bell hooks does write lower case, it's just that it didn't seem to work at first, like the name was a bunch of things: bell hooks her book CLASS MATTERS is very good by the way and the first book she wrote that i was able to get all the way through. i feel that she really makes the real arguments for what really divides this world when she talks about class. she has such courage when writing on the subject, taking risks that run right into the hand that feeds her. i actually have a lot of respect for her, i'm just annoyed with this subject of poets... but of course sexism is hooks's main topic. she and Gloria Steinem differ on one very big note, and that is that Steinem believes it's IMPOSSIBLE to liberate women without liberating men at the exact same time furthering Mina Loy's FEMINIST MANIFESTO here with Steinem's idea, is that Loy was very right to argue that all women were fighting for (and she wrote this a LONG time ago) are to have the same employment as men, to join the game, and that the real thing to "want" (for Loy) was to destroy the system and start over. Steinem's approach is more about all of us building self esteem to the point where we don't need this testosterone driven system. make the system obsolete in a sense, since the system is based on a lack of self worth, on following the desires of a few, who even give you the opportunity to believe you're fulfilling your own. Steinem's book REVOLUTION FROM WITHIN is one of the books that really could change the world, well, it changed my world at least --let me just speak for myself CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:45:19 -0400 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Organization: BlazeVOX [books] Subject: Poetry in Wartime - New Documentary Film Comments: To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poets Against the War ----- Original Message -----=20 From: info@poetsagainstthewar.org=20 To: ggatza@brownrockstheworld.edu =20 Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 2:48 AM Subject: Poetry in Wartime - New Documentary Film =20 New Documentary Film: Poetry in Wartime =20 July 24, 2004 Dear friend, You are one of the poets who published work at Poets Against the = War sometime during the past 18 months.=20 Now, a new feature-length documentary film - Poetry in Wartime -- = has been created to tell the story of Poets Against the War as well as = to distill the emotional essence of war and conflict through the lens of = poetry. The film looks at war through images and the words of poets - = both unknown and famous - to bring the experience of war into sharp = focus- from the Poets Against the War movement and from Homer, Wilfred = Owen, Siegfried Sassoon, Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes, Walt Whitman = and poets from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. For more information about the = film, please click here: Poetry in Wartime -- a Documentary Film to be released in September, 2004. or go to: http://poetryinwartime.org/. A new web site - Voices in Wartime -- has been launched to promote = the film Poetry in Wartime, and also to provide a place for publishing = art work in response to war, including poetry, essays, stories, blogs, = and images.=20 If you would like to have the poetry you submitted to Poets = Against the War also published on Voices in Wartime, please click here: Please publish my poetry that is on=20 poetsagainstthewar.org,=20 ALSO on=20 voicesinwartime.org. or go to = http://www.voicesinwartime.org/VoicesInWartime/Admin/turnonapprovals.aspx= to provide your permission. Yours, Sam Hamill, Gray Foster, Sally Anderson, Nancy Giebink -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - To unsubscribe: If you'd rather not receive any more email from = us, please click here, or send an email to info@poetsagainstthewar.org, = with "unsubscribe" in the "Subject" line. =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:07:12 -0700 Reply-To: Donna@OnlineWebArt.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donna Kuhn Organization: OnlineWebArt.com Subject: Donna Kuhns new chapbook "purse no birds" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chapultepec Press of Ohio is pleased to announce the release of Donna Kuhns chapbook "purse no birds." The book is 24 pages with a color cover illustrated by the author. Donna Kuhn has published over 250 poems in print and online journals and anthologies including poethia, aught, big bridge, generator press, over the transom, red dirt, unlikely stories, sidereality, xstream, muse apprentice guild, juxta, 5-trope, moria, poetry new york, dallas review, poetry motel, sonoma review, poetry motel, pudding magazine, lost and found times, onyx, ambit, fusebox, and sendecki. Her e-chapbooks are “no bird on yr arm” published by Tamaphyr Mountain Press (2003) and “red plastic mystic fish ladle” (2002) published by Xpressed .Three mini-chapbooks were published by poems-for-all (2003). Her print chapbooks include “when yr eyes snow,” Foothills Publishing (2003) “up bluen,” furniture press (2004) and “purse no birds,” Chapultepec Press (2004) . Visual poetry has been published by generator press, juxta, eratio and xstream. http:www.onlinewebart.com From the book: nobodys beautiful skull: a musician doesn't recognize snow the keys u hit, nothing the dark part of nobodys skull red photocopied sky eating yr junky planes, she’s the war and dark part of skull so smile, baby; cheap moon wants nothing yr brain damaged shoes sit and feel the ocarina leaves disco hands i got climate, im not gonna tiptoe i wish u bored me start blinking and i will Print and E-Chapbooks: red plastic mystic fish ladle, Xpressed(2002) http://www.xpressed.org/donna.pdf when yr eyes snow, Foothills Publishing (2003) htpp://www.foothillspublishing.com no bird on yr arm, Tamaphyr Mountain Poetry(2003) http://tmpoetry.com/nboya.pd supercuts, another coast, cutlets, Poems-for-All (mini chaps, 2003) http://www.sacfreepress.com/poems/checklist.htmlu up bluen, Furniture Press (2004) http://www.towson.edu/~cacasama/furniture/poae/ambit%20page.htm Her work is currently featured on various sites: Blackbox, Poetry, http://WilliamJamesAustin.com/Kuhn_5%20Poems.html Blackbox, Visual poetry, http://WilliamJamesAustin.com/liftthesnow.html http://WilliamJamesAustin.com/take-outmostly.html http://WilliamJamesAustin.com/uaremymind.html Real Eight Review, Visual art, http://www.realeight.com/artdonnakuhn.htm Lils' Experimental E-Zine, Interview, http://pages.ivillage.com/lilbabyphat/id19.html Meeting of the Minds Journal, Poetry and Art slideshow, http://www.meetingofthe mindsjournal.50megs.com/10thIssue/DonnaKuhn/dk1.html To order online: http://www.tokyoroserecords.com/press.html The chapbook is $5. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:12:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig: One cannot read Rilke without feeling that he was in-love (with a muse). But when it came to relationship with women, it seems that he was neurotic. Love happens, or doesn't happen, while relationship must be worked on. Because of this, I've always felt relationship more valuable, both personally and in my work. Although I wouldn't want to have lived without having been in-love. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:28 AM Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's > yes, i feel you're correct that hooks and my friend are > making the point from sexism > > but then again, if all is fiction > well, what difference is gender? > (not saying this to say what your point was > but to further see how stupid the judgment) > > i'm already aware of the argument that all > is fiction when dealing with writers > (i don't necessarily believe it always is > but i know poets who say it is) > > one of the things that i found especially interesting > that Rilke --and Rumi by the way-- could be attacked > by hooks because they were male living in "fantasy" > and not coming to us from any "concrete" experience > of love (this is my biggest problem, her all-seeing eye) > yet she gives no examples of women poets who DO > give us all what men seem to lack > > my point was that to have disdain for Rilke's poetry > on Love because of how he lived his life is what's silly > > Love is too expansive to actually finger as "concrete" > or "fantasy" > who is to say that a fantasy is not based on some > concrete --missing space in a life > missing space because it had been filled possibly > Love is something we all want and hopefully > have or at least have had > > and yes, Pound's support of fascism > was an awful thing. but i brought up Pound > because to shuck his poems aside because > of political beliefs (and of course actions), > in a way, is a similar > argument that hooks is making, in that, > the man cannot be trusted to have actually > MEANT or FELT the things he wrote > based on information about the lived life. > she simplifies the human condition in > order to disregard > > we now know --for instance-- a very different > view of Hitler, with this bizarre and extraordinary > documentary recently released on video, the > interview with his secretary. i recommend that > everyone see it. why? because she brought him > out of the black and white footage, and made Hitler > scarier than ever in a way, because she made him > human, and of course it's much much easier and > comfortable to keep him at bay, keep him a demon. > > and yes, bell hooks does write lower case, > it's just that it didn't seem to work at first, like > the name was a bunch of things: bell hooks > > her book CLASS MATTERS is very good by the way > and the first book she wrote that i was able to get > all the way through. i feel that she really makes the > real arguments for what really divides this world when > she talks about class. she has such courage when > writing on the subject, taking risks that run right into > the hand that feeds her. i actually have a lot of respect > for her, i'm just annoyed with this subject of poets... > > but of course sexism is hooks's main topic. she and > Gloria Steinem differ on one very big note, and that is > that Steinem believes it's IMPOSSIBLE to liberate > women without liberating men at the exact same time > > furthering Mina Loy's FEMINIST MANIFESTO here > with Steinem's idea, is that Loy was very right to argue > that all women were fighting for (and she wrote this a > LONG time ago) are to have the same employment as > men, to join the game, and that the real thing to "want" > (for Loy) was to destroy the system and start over. > > Steinem's approach is more about all > of us building self esteem to the point where we don't > need this testosterone driven system. make the system > obsolete in a sense, since the system is based on a lack > of self worth, on following the desires of a few, who even > give you the opportunity to believe you're fulfilling your own. > > Steinem's book REVOLUTION FROM WITHIN is one > of the books that really could change the world, well, > it changed my world at least --let me just speak for myself > > CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:41:36 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: translation website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear list, I remember an e-mail a few months ago about an internet initiative aimed at documenting translation, creative translation, writing in a foreign language, etc... But I cannot find the infor anymore, seems to have been deleted by mistake... and furdamore, dunno from which list it came... Anyone who could help??? Thanks, Cyrill. (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:50:05 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: What I'd say MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tito's Revenge is an inside-the-waistband cross-draw of slimline construction, best suited for the medium-size auto. Shown here with Kahr's K40, it should be limited to pistols the size of a Commander or smaller. I was wondering Be alert. Report suspicious activity missing and presumed dead he called me fuckin' piece o' shit fuckin' french Everybodys someone else's nigga spare change for a homeless Sir? I'm homeless too you stupid cunt it's not because my shirt is white not because I'm good-lookin' even wit da broken nose of mine I don't give a fuck about YOUR homelessness your junkiness your low-standard-lifeness each day is a fight a defeat for me too my english is broken my life is broken my courage is broken but I don't give up demolishing houses – the sort of place that feels right to be nude. DSL/Cbl: 56k mod: 28.8k mod: 5 min. 24 min. 48 min. La Dérive n'est pas une promenade - The Drift is not a walk - and presumed dead if anybody here "start a new life" (but) now what? just out from Anything Else's screening I won tickets I have no roof above my head know what? If it wasn't for her I wouldn't care AT ALL life is fucked up and I know it I've known it from the beginning from that fuckin' crazy bitch mother of mine she ruined my life I know how to deal with ruins don't need a fuckin' shrink to build from nothing cold shoulder what I'd like RIGHT NOW is to have a hot shower allah 1,810,000 in such carnal classics same kind of experiment I'd like to eat enough to have to take a shit once a day hitler 3,510,000 working as a valet beatles 5,420,000 all that matters are known to urinate freely in the redwoods and perform mock-druidic rituals and presumed dead I mean, writing in another language I look death in the face elvis 5,480,000 "the most faggy goddamned thing you could ever imagine." after all I am french moisture-proof body bags muslim 5,870,000 whose fault that is? jesus 5,950,000 appropriation into the digital age michael jackson 5,730,000 Providence, Rhode Island , USA madonna 5,950,000 I am out of the office until Tuesday 3rd August and will reply to your email then. Regards, feel that you cannot provide feel that you cannot provide feel that you cannot provide what I'd like to do RIGHT NOW is to cook something nice for her, peppers, onions, garlic, parsley, olive oil, black and green olives, salt, pepper, unknown spices, cumin, curry, basmati, tomatoes, carrots, aubergines (eggplants you say in your united states no?), courgettes (zucchinis you say in your united states no?) I can do a sweet and sour sauce out of vinegar, chilli and brown sugar too bref bref bref hate 6,460,000 men fail us when we come face to face and presumed dead enemy 9,040,000 lies don't work africa 9,390,000 "la frontera más visitada del mundo" (and btw did I tell you I was trying to learn spanish? after all she lives in Valencia we are going to live together if we are still together did I tell you our togetherness was my strenght and my weakness) terror 9,920,000 of the millions/billions of love anal 11,900,000 I know, this sounds a little strange, right? politics and presumed dead 12,000,000 "counter intuitive" new york 14,600,000 (whatever it may be) tokyo Civil Tunnel Construction Client Project 16,000,000 with loss of data philosophy 17,900,000 but multiple checks of identification occurred. Agents were reported to have made threatening statements to individuals yes 18,100,000 VEN A TIJUANA have affected your life and are useful to you, please does it often and without embarrassment She loves sex she tells me to have sex with whoever I want until I keep loving her lots of fantasies but it is still her that I wanna fuck in da arse on her face I wanna cum her fingers on my prick her voice saying "oh oui, mange-moi le con" or "j'ai encore le goût de ton foutre au fond de la gorge" with her particular accent making an eternity blissful eternity out of the f of foutre which is as con is a gross/coarse word but not very used nowadays anyway who cares SHE uses these words and I love it too bad we disagreed a bit about this exhibition Stypo Praniko Stipo Pranyko I meant http://www.liceus.com/cgi-bin/gui/03/1825.asp she told me they wrote about Deleuze in the book published for the exhibit I loved all these pieces white so white displaced commodities fulled with the inherent nostalgia of artefacts that once were useful but are not anymore only the memory the trace throughout time of something that might have been important meaningful whatever about what’s ok and what isn’t in painful memories that left My actual passion is photography, cries and pleas falling on dead ears jurors talk: lesose than regopular pricoce and so mulch mocore and so mulch mocore and so mulch mocore The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better. a Pinoy1 1An American of Filipino "sympathize" with criminals figured he was dead someone figured he was dead trying to beat down his front door figured he was dead New York City Police's raid on Nov. 16, 2003, in which police beat and arrested queer and trans delivemory to your front dolror and her last e-mail it was just OUI written in xxl size btw oui is the first word I ever said to her hopefully when I am dead distant echoes will remain (¸.•'´(¸.•'´ `'•.¸)`' •.¸) ¸.•´ ( `•.¸ `•.¸ ) ¸.•)´ (.•´ `*. *. shooting yourself in the balls is not the way to have a happy life http://dolmensniper.motime.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: VPD score 3 in-custody deaths in 3 months! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28206.php VPD score 3 in-custody deaths in 3 months! Although a pathology test HASN'T been completed, Spokesperson Sarah Bloor says there were lethal amounts of cocaine in Bagnall's system. She says police WAITED for those test RESULTS before telling the public about the incident. Man shot with Taser dies in custody WebPosted Jul 23 2004 03:37 PM PDT vancouver.cbc.ca VANCOUVER - Vancouver Police have released details about a man who died in their custody a month ago - after he was shot with a Taser gun. Robert Bagnall, 54, died June 23 after police were called to his hotel on Granville Street. Bagnall had locked himself in the bathroom of his hotel when police were called to the scene. They say he was combative, screaming and destroying hotel property. An officer from the Emergency Response Team used his Taser gun to subdue Bagnall. While he was being handcuffed, Bagnall stopped breathing and died on the scene. Police Chief Jamie Graham insists using the Taser was the right thing to do. "I would remind you that there has never been a coroner in Canada or the United States that has listed the Taser as the cause of death. In fact, in Vancouver we now use the Taser specifically because a coroner's jury recommended we deploy it to save lives." Now, Police are looking elsewhere for an explanation of Bagnall's death. Although a pathology test hasn't been completed, Spokesperson Sarah Bloor says there were lethal amounts of cocaine in Bagnall's system. She says police waited for those test results before telling the public about the incident. "We wanted the opportunity to get all the results back so that we could allow all the information to go out to you in its full capacity - so that you would know the lethal levels that existed, as well as what the officers did that night." Still, questions remain about the weapons. Amnesty International wants them to be banned and the Canada Safety Council says their safety should be reviewed. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Man falls to death following scuffle with police WebPosted Jul 12 2004 08:43 AM PDT vancouver.cbc.ca An unidentified man fell to his death from the Knight Street Bridge on Sunday following a police chase. Vancouver Police tried to pull a man and woman over because their car didn't have licence plates. But the driver sped off against oncoming traffic, sideswiping oncoming vehicles, finally coming to a halt after hitting another car. The chase then continued on foot. Police says an officer grabbed the man as he was trying to jump off the bridge and tried to pull him back to safety, but lost his grip. The man fell eight metres to the pavement below. The woman passenger who fled with the victim was taken into custody and later released. Police spokesperson, Const. Sarah Bloor says the man was known to police. The Richmond RCMP is investigating the incident, which is considered an in-custody death. ------------------------------------------------------ Roman Andreichikov: Dead in Custody http://www.thetyee.ca/News/current/Dead+in+Custody.htm (Roman Andreichikov died May 3, 2004, after Vancouver cops shot him with a taser) "I can't breathe." Those, says a friend who watched in horror, were Roman Andreichikov's last words as he lay pinned to the floor of his Granville Street apartment. Three Vancouver police officers had piled themselves atop his body while another one stood by his side. One officer pushed Andreichikov's head down against the floor. Two officers bent Andreichikov's legs at the knees while they used their body weight to drive his ankles into his back. "If you're mumbling, you're still breathing," was one officer's reply, reportedly. Moments earlier, one of the officers holding Andreichikov's legs had shot him with a Taser - an electric stun gun that overwhelmed his nervous system with 50,000 volts of electricity. With his body in convulsions, the officers took hold of Andreichikov and bound his hands with cuffs. Then thirty seconds after Andreichikov gasped his final words, he drew his last breath... -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:31:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Leonardo Electronic Almanac: July 2004 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed *sincere apologies for cross-posting* Leonardo Electronic Almanac: July 2004 ISSN#1071-4391 art | science | technology - a definitive voice since 1993 http://lea.mit.edu *Translation, Transcodification, Transmission: Erika Tan's *Pidgin: Interrupted Transmission*, by Janice Cheddie* This month, Janice Cheddie discusses "issues of cultural translation, digital media and notions of difference," using a work by U.K.-based artist Erika Tan as a basis for her exploration. *Leonardo Reviews: July 2004* Leonardo Reviews includes a review of the Europe-Asia Contemporary Music Festival in Kazan, Russia, by Alexandre A.Ovsyannikov; Rob Harle's review of a special issue of *HYLE: The International Journal for the Philosophy of Chemistry*; and Andrea Dahlberg's review of a new book on Italian filmmaker Luchino Visconti. Also in this issue, we feature selected abstracts from the upcoming issue of Leonardo (Vol. 37, No. 4); an announcement and information on Leonardo's collaboration with ISEA2004, taking place in Finland, Estonia and the waters in-between; and the latest news on the activities of Leonardo/ISAST. Editorial ideas / proposals: lea@mitpress.mit.edu **************************************************************************** **** LEA Information and URLs ------------------------------------------- Receive your FREE subscription to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac e-mail digest at http://mitpress.mit.edu/lea/e-mail -- just provide your email address, name, and password, and check off that you'd like to be added to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac monthly e-mail list to keep on top of the latest news in the Leonardo community. How to advertise in LEA? http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/isast/placeads.html#LEAads For a paid subscription (to become an ISAST member and access archives dating back to 1993): http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=4&tid=27&mode=p The Leonardo Educators Initiative ------------------------------------------------------- The Leonardo Abstracts Service (LABS) is a listing of Masters and Ph.D. theses in the art/science/technology field, for the benefit of scholars and practitioners. LEA also maintains a discussion list open only to faculty in the field. Students interested in contributing and faculty wishing to join this list should contact lea@mitpress.mit.edu What is LEA? ---------------------- For over a decade, Leonardo Electronic Almanac (LEA) has thrived as an international peer-reviewed electronic journal and web archive, covering the interaction of the arts, sciences and technology. LEA emphasizes rapid publication of recent work and critical discussion on topics of current excitement. Many contributors are younger scholars and artists, and there is a slant towards shorter, less academic texts. Contents include Leonardo Reviews, edited by Michael Punt, Leonardo Research Abstracts of recent Ph.D. and Masters theses, curated Galleries of current new media artwork, and special issues on topics ranging from Artists and Scientists in times of War, to Zero Gravity Art, to the History of New Media. Copyright© 1993 - 2004: The Leonardo Electronic Almanac is published by Leonardo / International Society for the Arts, Sciences and Technology (ISAST) in association with the MIT Press. All rights reserved. -- NEW ADDRESS! Please note our new contact information as of May 1, 2004: Leonardo/ISAST 211 Sutter Street, Suite 800 San Francisco, CA 94108 phone: (415) 391-1110 fax: (415) 391-2385 Email: isast@leonardo.info Web: http://www.leonardo.info Receive your FREE subscription to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac e-journal at http://mitpress.mit.edu/lea/e-mail -- just provide your email address, name, and password, and check off that you'd like to be added to the Leonardo Electronic Almanac: the leading peer-reviewed electronic journal in the art and technology field. _______________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:41:02 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed David, Alas, I can't make it...I will be out of town that weekend on vacation... On a side note, It makes me sad to see that a lot of my favorite Boston poets haven't been included in this event. Don't be deceived; the revolution isn't at Wordsworth Books, either. Best, Tim Peterson THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE FRI 7/30 - SUN 8/1 WordsWorth Books Harvard Square Cambridge, MA lots of poets read a few poems FRI 7/30 7:00 Sean Cole 7:12 Sara Veglahn 7:24 David Kirschenbaum 7:36 Chad Parenteau 7:48 Shin Yu Pai break 8:12 Guillermo Juan Parra 8:24 Jim Dunn 8:36 Gina Myers 8:48 John Mulrooney 9:00 Shanna Compton break 9:24 Christopher Rizzo 9:36 Dana Ward 9:48 Prageeta Sharma 10:00 Cole Heinowitz 10:12 Marcella Durand SAT 7/31 11:00 Amanda Nadelberg 11:12 Lisa Lubasch 11:24 Mark Lamoureux 11:36 Erica Kaufman 11:48 Rachel Levitsky break 12:12 Colby Cedar Smith 12:24 John Colleti 12:36 Brendan Lorber 12:48 Cori Copp 1:00 Filip Marinovic break 1:24 Jenny Boully 1:36 Sandra Simonds 1:48 Jaime Corbacho 2:00 John Cotter 2:12 Joanna Sondheim break 2:36 Shafer Hall 2:48 Jennifer Knox 3:00 Gabriella Torres 3:12 Ada Limon 3:24 Katie Degentesh break 3:48 Daniel Nester 4:00 Tina Brown Celona 4:12 Hassen 4:24 Nick Piombino 4:36 Anna Moschovakis break 5:00 Stephanie Young 5:12 Gary Sullivan 5:24 Nada Gordon 5:36 Elizabeth Reddin Saturday night 7:00 Jordan Davis 7:12 Aaron Kunin 7:24 David Hess 7:36 Jacqueline Waters 7:48 Drew Gardner break 8:12 Tracey McTague 8:24 Joe Torra 8:36 Alli Warren 8:48 Max Winter 9:00 Dorothea Lasky break 9:24 Christina Strong 9:36 Kimberly Lyons 9:48 Kish Song Bear 10:00 Laurel Snyder 10:12 Douglas Rothschild SUN 8/1 11:00 Mitch Highfill 11:12 TBA 11:24 Macgregor Card 11:36 Brian Kim Stefans 11:48 Matvei Yankelevich break 12:24 Brandon Downing 12:36 Jack Kimball 12:48 Andrew Mister 1:00 Aaron Kiely 1:12 Gabriel Gudding break 1:36 Noah Eli Gordon 1:48 Stacy Szymaszek 2:00 Michael Carr 2:12 David Perry 2:24 TBA break 2:48 Chris Jackson 3:00 Matthew Celona 3:12 Lori Lubeski 3:24 Mike County 3:36 Neetzan Zimmerman Attend if attending is your thing. THE REVOLUTION ISN'T ON THE BUFFALO LIST ---------- Jim Behrle Events Director WordsWorth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 354 5201 fax (617) 354 4674 jim@wordsworth.com www.wordsworth.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Cowboys and Indians: Perspectives on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28219.php Cowboys and Indians: Perspectives on ...a permanent...colonization, native reservations are benign forms of apartheid. Natives as a race have been systemically brainwashed through the use of reservations to be dependent on the State for its daily existence. If a race is more concerned about its daily subsistence, it is no longer concerned about righting the injustices of the past. It is no longer concerned about reclaiming its lands through political, legal, or, if necessary, military force. If a race is separated from the mainstream systems of power and knowledge, it is not able to right the injustices of the past through political, legal or military intervention. Cowboys and Indians: Perspectives on Patterns of U.S. and Israeli Colonization Alden C. Mayfield* The pattern of demonizing, conquering, colonizing, occupying and plundering another nation is still a sad reality in our post-modern age. Colonization is conveniently disguised in the noble rhetoric of United Nations legality, democratic jargon, and liberationist rhetoric. The history of the expansion of the U.S. is a clear example of this pattern of colonization. Israel as a strategic U.S. partner is also another example of this post-modern process of conquering, colonizing, and civilizing the uncivilized. While many experts argue that the present motives of the U.S. war in Iraq are meant to grant freedom to the Iraqi people, others argue that the U.S. is simply pursuing its agenda of global domination. This agenda of world domination is quite similar to the U.S.'s goal of its westward expansion as it demonized, conquered and colonized aboriginal lands in the present U.S. territories. As such the U.S. government in the guise of democracy and human freedom continues this pattern of demonizing, conquering, colonizing and forcing its enemies into economic and political submission with military threat in order to fulfill its own national interests. After all this is done in the noble cause of conquering and civilizing the "native savages," the U.S. government enriches itself on their natural resources. From the beginning of the American colonies to the present era, the U.S. agenda has always been dedicated to territorial expansion in order to control natural resources. The colonization of "native savages" is an obvious example of this imperialistic agenda. Modest estimations put the systematic slaughter of native aboriginals in the U.S. anywhere between 20 million to 30 million people. From the 1600s to the present time, the U.S. government has been systemically demonizing, conquering and colonizing American aboriginals and other indigenous peoples in order to dehumanize them into being pathetic individuals who are dependent on the State as they are placed on segregated lands with third-world living conditions. As a permanent form of colonization, native reservations are benign forms of apartheid. Natives as a race have been systemically brainwashed through the use of reservations to be dependent on the State for its daily existence. If a race is more concerned about its daily subsistence, it is no longer concerned about righting the injustices of the past. It is no longer concerned about reclaiming its lands through political, legal, or, if necessary, military force. If a race is separated from the mainstream systems of power and knowledge, it is not able to right the injustices of the past through political, legal or military intervention. In other words, reservations have systematically emasculated and dehumanized the aboriginal race in order to eradicate any future notions of nationalism, independence and Statehood. Reservations are essentially long-term tools of colonization in order to make natives powerless in reclaiming their lands for independent Statehood. As such, aboriginals on reservations are essentially powerless to reclaim their lands through legal or political institutions. These governments have succeeded in systematically eliminating the notion of natives reclaiming their lands through political, legal, or military force. Such native notions of nationalism, land reclamation, justice and political independence has been deliberately erased with the colonizer's marginalized vision of reservation existence. With this illegal existence of apartheid-reservations, all treaties signed between native tribes and Western governments are illegal and non-binding pieces of paper as they were created in times of illegal occupation. In other words, Canadian, American and Australian governments are still illegally occupying and enriching themselves on aboriginal lands. Such a pattern of demonizing, conquering, colonizing and illegally occupying Indian lands in order to civilize any Statehood ambitions and to control their natural resources has been applied to various places in the U.S. territories. The systematic colonization of Mexican, Hawaiian and Filipino territories is another clear example of the present relevance of American colonization. What are now Texas, New Mexico and California were once Mexican territories. The U.S. simply annexed these lands by demonizing, conquering, colonizing and permanently occupying these lands. In the process millions of Mexican aboriginals were systematically slaughtered in order to fulfill the U.S. policy of westward expansion and colonization in order to control their natural resources. Similarly, Hawaiians were demonized, conquered, colonized and subsequently occupied in order to control their natural resources and Hawaii's geo-strategic importance for military purposes. The same process occurred in the Philippine islands. Hundreds of thousands of Filipinos were slaughtered in order for the U.S. to continue its westward expansion of colonization. It could be argued that military bases in Germany, Italy, South Korea, Japan, the United Kingdom and other parts of the world are benign forms of U.S. colonization. The simple fact that U.S. troops are based in foreign lands is indicative of the fact that the U.S. government not only has influence on the political and economic aspects of those lands, but it has the added advantage of containing its enemies in other lands. Some would argue that native reservations are benevolent acts of Western governments. Indeed, the U.S. government could have exterminated all natives in order to control all their lands. Let's not forget that acts of aboriginal genocide have been committed in Canada, Australia and the U.S. Some would argue that aboriginals are satisfied with their reservation existence and are better off under the wise protection of their conquerors. This is another racist argument of ethnic cleansing that is also used by the Israeli government. If natives are satisfied with living conditions that are below that of third-world living conditions, that is a very sad existence with no future hope for their children. However, if natives understand that political independence and Statehood means first-world living conditions, they'll find more hope for their children. The present reservation systems in Canada, the U.S. and Australia deny aboriginals of billions and billions of dollars in land revenues. Like dogs living in a household, natives are literally given scraps from the tables of their conquering masters. A few hundred thousand dollars are given to the natives in order to make them a dependent race with no future ambitions of independent Statehood. From the perspective of the master, it would be unthinkable for a dog to rise up and reclaim its lands and dignity in the form of Statehood. The pet dog has been conditioned to be content with his doghouse, meagre scraps, and its master's rules. It would be an understatement to say that dogs are treated more humanely than aboriginals in their doghouse-reservation-like existence. As such, it shouldn't be surprising that this American pattern of colonization is being systematically and deliberately applied to the Palestinian occupied lands and Iraq. Despite American and British attempts to paint this conflict with Iraq in humanitarian-liberation jargon, this present day conflict in Iraq is not about Weapons of Mass Destruction, Freedom, Democracy or Human Rights. It is about colonization and occupation in order to control Iraqi oil fields. If the U.S. can control Iraq's oil fields, it can essentially control the world by strengthening the supremacy of its economy and military and thus destroying the OPEC cartel as it is now considering changing from the U.S. dollar standard to the Euro. If this war was really about true freedom, democracy and human rights, the U.S. and the UK would have gone to war with most Middle Eastern nations, including Israel, which is just as bad if not worse than Iraq. In following its traditional policy of demonizing its enemies (Saddam) through the media and unsuccessfully through the UN, the U.S. is now using military force to conquer, colonize and occupy Iraq in order to control its vast oil reserves and thus control the world. This pattern of colonization is a strategic part of U.S. foreign policy dating back to the 1600s. The only difference is that the U.S. now employs phony UN diplomacy and liberationist rhetoric to cover-up its real motives of colonization and global domination. It is now clear that U.S. policy in Iraq and the Middle East has always been regime change in order to control oil and the world. Unfortunately, the terrorist regime in Israel is an exception as it is protected by the U.S. We've entered into another era of American world colonization through political, economic and military force. This is a clear warning to any nation (except Israel) that dares to disagree with America's post-modern methods of colonization in order to control the world and enrich its own national interests. If the U.S. is really interested in freedom, democracy and human rights in the Middle East, it would treat both Iraq and Israel with the same standards. As far as I know, 30 years have passed since UN Security Council resolution 242 was passed ordering Israeli troops to completely withdraw from Palestinian occupied territories, but I don't remember the U.S. giving the terrorist State of Israel a 48-hour ultimatum. The State of Israel continues to mock the world and the UN as it continues to defy and dismiss close to 400 UN Security Council resolutions ordering it to withdraw from Palestinian occupied territories. Iraq has defied a few UN Security Council resolutions over the past 12 years, but all of a sudden the U.S. government (the same government that supplied the materials and technological know-how necessary to create weapons of mass destruction, the same government that turned a blind eye to Kurds and others being gassed by Saddam) is pleading intentional ignorance and mocking the world with lies of freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people as it wages an illegal war in Iraq. A few hours after stepping down from Blair's government, Robin Cook said that he quit because of "the West's double standard in dealing with Iraq and Israel regarding their violations of UN Security Council resolutions...30 years have passed since UN Security Council resolution 242 asked Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian occupied lands, but it doesn't seem that we are losing our patience over Israel ignoring the resolution," added Cook. The only thing the Iraqi people will get from the U.S. is a post-modern form of colonization in which the occupying power will control its natural resources and thus its future. That's the goal of the U.S. government. Don't be fooled by its hollow language of liberation. Don't believe George Bush when he says he "has no ambitions in Iraq." This American pattern of colonization and occupation has been systematically and ruthlessly implemented by the Israeli State. From the origins of the Israeli State in 1948, Western governments demonized Arabs as uncivilized terrorists who are unwilling to share their lands with the Jewish people. After this phase of demonizing Arabs as terrorists, Western powers under UN cover illegally justified this arbitrary form of institutionalized colonization as it partitioned Palestine. In the next phase of this colonization, Western powers trained, armed and organized Israeli militants who systematically slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. At gunpoint, many Palestinians were either forced to leave their lands or were killed. With this phase done, the process of illegal UN and Israeli colonization is now complete. The next phase of colonization is forced assimilation into apartheid-like reservations for Palestinians, but this phase of colonization has not worked as smoothly as the Israeli State had planned. Disobedient Palestinians are now demonized as terrorists who don't want to share their illegally occupied lands with the Israeli colonizers. For the past 40 or so years, the Israeli government has been unsuccessful in seeking to put Palestinians in apartheid-like reservations in order to erase their national aspirations of Statehood and in order to control their natural resources. In fact, the Israeli government's present policy of occupation and ethnic cleansing is a clear indication that their project of putting Palestinians on Western-style reservations has failed. Unlike the American and Canadian projects of aboriginal reservation existence in order to eradicate foolish notions of aboriginal independence and Statehood, the Palestinians have successfully resisted this hopeless reservation life under Israeli occupation. In short, Israeli policy is quite similar to Western policies of dehumanizing aboriginals on reservations in order to brainwash them into a dependent relationship: a master-servant existence. With this American-Israeli model of colonization and occupation of Palestinian lands, it is now easier to understand why the U.S. government gives unqualified financial, military, and diplomatic support to Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands even though Israeli policies are against international law. If Israel, as Chomsky has cogently argued, is a strategic partner of the U.S. in the Middle East, the U.S. government will simply view illegal Israeli policies as necessary in order to dehumanize and control an indigenous race that needs to be civilized like "savage American Indians." The U.S. and Israeli States are afraid of aboriginal nationalism and democracy, as this would mean independent Statehood and the loss of billions of dollars in land revenues. The U.S. has a sad record of conquering and colonizing other aboriginal races. Since the U.S. government has been illegally conquering and colonizing aboriginal lands, it doesn't see any need to treat Iraq and Israel with the same standards under international law. Iraqis like Palestinians are uncivilized "savages" that need to be conquered and civilized. Israelis like Americans are the enlightened race that needs to enlighten the unenlightened aboriginals. As savages, Iraqis need to be civilized by American occupation in order to fully develop their oil fields. As a pioneer of colonization, the U.S. views Palestinians and Iraqis as "savage Indians" who are messing up their plans of colonization and world domination. The U.S. can easily control its Israeli client as it is really an extension of the U.S. military and the U.S.'s political and economic agenda in the Middle East. Iraqis and Palestinians are the modern-day "Indians" that need to be conquered, colonized, civilized and dehumanized on reservations in order to control their natural resources and to erase all foolish notions of Statehood. Since Israel as an extension of the U.S. military is allowed to possess weapons of mass destruction as a superior race, any race--especially indigenous (inferior) races--that foolishly dreams of Statehood is systematically, politically and economically marginalized by the organs of knowledge and power. The very fact that the U.S. government supports a pseudo-democracy like Israel and a war criminal like Ariel Sharon is indicative of America's concern for justice in the Middle East. If these methods of post-modern colonization don't work, the U.S. and Israeli governments simply resort to illegally confiscating lands, bulldozing homes, uprooting farmlands and families, assassinating political opponents with state-of-the-art military technology, shooting missiles into crowded residential areas in order to kill civilians, torturing political opponents without due legal and humanitarian processes, carpet bombing or sanctioning any disobedient nation, and excusing the killing of innocent babies, children, women and others as collateral damage, or as necessary in order to civilize the race and bend it to its national interests which is seen as world security and peace. But, if those being occupied dare to resist such injustice, they are systematically demonized as terrorists by the colonizers and their media organizations. "Let's civilize the crazy Indian by burning down his teepees, controlling his lands, exterminating his buffaloes, raping his women and killing his children," remarks the brave American cowboy. The pattern of American-style post-modern colonization continues its terrorist cycle in terms of freedom, democracy, and globalization. *Canadian scholar residing in Asia. From Palestine Times, April 2003 (http://www.ptimes.org) -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:30:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: this is a picture, not a statement. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed this is a picture, not a statement. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:31:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: don't read this. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed don't read this. this is a picture, not a statement. are you demonstrating. are you violent. this is a statement, not a picture. read this. you find it impossible to stop. you go on and on. will you kill for your beliefs. will you give up your life for them. bury them. will you bury them. this is a picture. don't read any of this. this is a picture, not a statement. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:52:36 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Resolve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Familiar nest in coddle moss inhale the round of comfort in the folds of your soft neck. Birth is the relief of a lapsed Calliope: mother muse bears silence marking song. Breath traduced to warmth is how you must first brush the vellum of why. You must into the pores go, impossibly, dampen the stormy lea and the vaulting skyward gray. This is the profound of hope. You are a small unseen and yet momentous pivot passing into this. To make way I make a place. So what must I forget? Forget the decay of batteries and the cracks of plaster for they remember only themselves pouring into twice-spilled bottles and out of the anger of anticipations all ultimately augured. In making space. And so what I have for you in this brief opening are words, warm hollow: words: expect nothing. Embrace everything, demand the impossible and pause only to remember your direction: from where, to where, for to remember is to inhabit, to live within. Make space. Grow, then, upon escapes into, brief welcomes into our cloud-hewn granite: what I share with you is hard as Himalaya and familiar as home: Our fleeting trust is borne of earth. I ask of you to ask of hope itself, for we must depart as we arrive: to bury my body when it flags when it is near or within and unboxed turn me roll me drop me into warmth of sodden mother peat. Love me as I love you through this passing, whoever or whatever we are. And love, love, damn it, pass into love, forge a music both reckless and gentle, and sing its song, part sound and part silence. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:00:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: << zone >>.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed . << zone >>.. . violence, tortures, worldwide misery. we can't stop killing. now they're .. . economy those don't say. violence, worth we regulations this the to .. why . is all writing not a sign or simulacrum of violence. earth, we . testify to . fury, hyperssxed bodies . through the wires, through these . minds, these . bodies. violence, tortures, worldwide misery. we can't stop . killing. now . they're . i'm not killing anyone, i'm just writing. will . you kill for your . beliefs.. our own fucking deaths. i collapsed in the . bookstore. i couldn't . face . to death and death's dismal teleology. let . us celebrate the carcass . of the . other us dna in to soon soon to death . is you dna can murder, at . stock, . deaths. we are faced with rulers who . do not care, . prolong the . death agonies of ourselves and those . i am . afraid alan's poems do bore me . i know they are dead because i can't.. pain and despair. slaughter comes . from within and . we slaughter.. nothing saves nothing; of all, we . is . murder, is always this one and . that one, this and that, there's no way . spirit, the answer, the spite of . it all. the other is always murdered, . always already murdered, from the . get go; lines are etched in blood, . spirit, is too murdered, carcass bet . around and answer, purity god there . believe is at don't bet you murder, . at there's no of one belief, old at . other us dna in to soon soon to . death is you dna can murder, at stock, you . dna bet is is belief, that, . rest bet outside same murdered, all... .. other always and death murdered, i at poems are me rulers is are not . . killing pain prolong death . agonies other is and death is i at that, . . alan's we me rulers death they not . pain prolong to and agonies . murder, .. and to the i murder, stock, alan's we me rulers belief, they not now .. can't. prolong . and agonies the is and to it i murder, death alan's we .. bore rulers god they not can't can't. prolong couldn't within agonies the .. . and to spite i murder, in alan's we bore.. .. tortures, fucking we they're . fury, violence, nothing; through the . . through why slaughter violence, writing no can't sign is killing of .. tortures, own we they're of fury, violence, within . this through why i . . bodies. writing murder, can't sign bet not of violence, our we now the . . fury, say. can't.. this through why those bodies. writing bet we sign dna .. not of beliefs.. we now us fury, say. i . this wires, why with bodies.. . writing is we sign stock, i'm of your we now teleology. fury, say. poems .. . this wires,... . always one etched at murdered, in answer, soon there death dna at . you .. you spirit, bet there's always one etched at murdered, dna and soon . there . deaths. you at from you you way rest there's murdered, one are at . too dna . and soon there just you at slaughter stock, you no rest there's . always one . are at too dna and soon there worldwide you at pain stock, . you that, that, . there's always one are at too dna and soon.. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: << zone >>.. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed thank you, allan this is very moving At 02:00 AM 7/25/2004 -0400, you wrote: >. ><< zone >>.. > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:14:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If someone reads a love poem, and the way it's worded, the tone of voice, or the persona, tend to remind the reader of the way someone who broke their heart talked(through dissembling, etc. etc...) or acted, then it's going to be much harder to appreciate the love poem, or the kind of love poem, that's what seems to me to be the core of this particular debate which probably tells us less about rilke than about the person making the comment (I think Louise Gluck too would agree with bell hooks about rilke for whatever that's worth) and no kinda love is better than others..." lou reed... ---------- >From: michelle reeves >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: In defense of Love like Rilke's >Date: Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 7:27 PM > > Perhaps this arguement is generally a difference in how the two of you view > love in it's ideal expression ; perhaps this is a gendered thing. Her > comment strikes me right off as not a serious comment about poetry, but > another arrow in the notorious "Battle of the Sexes." > >> When discussing Love and Poetry recently with a friend, >> she made the remark, "Men aren't capable of writing about >> love as it actually exists, especially in poetry." > > This seems to me to be, offhandedly, ridiculously sexist. Men have been > writing poetry for thousands of years. . . and more of the most famous love > poems are by men. In any case, of the millions/billions of love poems > written by men, to evaluate them all as not-accurate, and men as "Not > Capable" seems outright ridiculous right away. > > In fact she started out "Men aren't capable of writing about love as it > actually exists...", not even singling out poets. > I would guess that almost anyone who read a great deal would be able to > refute this, but continuing on... > > > I believe I DID roll my eyes, and went on to defend Love >> for any gender. > > I would vomit on the spot. > >> It made me crazy to think Love wouldn't >> have a voice "as it actually exists" unless interpreted >> through gender-specific lips. > > I think you've hit the nail on the head -- her love "as it actually exists" > is a gender specific idea, and therefore men don't seem to be able to write > about it. Perhaps she should consider that love "as it actually exists" > isn't necessarily the same experience for everyone. > >> "Rilke was a liar, for instance," she said. > > This seems like another strange phrasing -- that something that is > "fantastical" or non-concrete, in the context of poetry, should be lying. > > Can poetry lie? > Does poetry lie? > >> This is the direction of the argument? Yes, and to pour >> concrete around it, Bell Hooks was quoted, slandering >> Rilke's ability to get Love "as it actually exists." > > I think she, like e.e. cummings, does not like her name to be capitalized. > ("bell hooks") > >> When I challenged that NOT EVEN Bell Hooks would >> make such a ridiculous statement about Rilke, I was >> presented proof. Here's a quote from her book >> "all about love," published a couple of years ago: >> >> "Men often write about love through fantasy, through >> what they imagine is possible rather than what they >> concretely know. We know now that Rilke did not >> write as he lived. That so many words of love offered >> us by great men fail us when we come face to face >> with reality." >> >> Is this argument real? Is it really an argument might >> be a better question. Who CARES how Rilke may or >> may not have lived his life. And by the way, any > > Well, I suppose what they're saying is that Rilke's poetry is not an > expression of real feeling. And if one is looking for a poetry of "honesty", > then they might CARE. In any case, I don't think that even if Rilke did not > write how he lived, that makes him a liar -- no, that makes him a writer. If > you lie in your personal life or your letters, that it is far different from > telling a different story, a different narrative, in your work than is your > life. > >> evidence either way would only be smearing highlights. >> A poet is not the summation of highlights of his or her >> life anymore than Bell Hooks is! >> >> What? Rilke didn't REALLY know about REAL love >> because he wasn't gushing the goblet 24/7? > > I don't think that they're saying Rilke didn't know love, but that those > poems were not an expression of that love but of an ideal. > >> We are all of us constantly exchanging, transferring >> and recreating an abundance of different emotional >> responses to the world all day long. It's impossible, >> even archaic to box an individual into One emotional >> category. The best we have to go on is the most >> examples of a particular emotion expressed. But >> none of this defines an entire life. > > So what you're basically saying is what -- love is not a separable > "emotion"? It's difficult to figure out if Rilke loved someone? > > I don't think if Rilke ever loved anyone is really the idea in question > here -- the idea in question is whether Rilke's work was a realistic (versus > fantastical) depiction of love, which obviously your female friend and bell > hooks agree it is not. Are you saying that it is realistic? > >> Not only that, it's simply too easy to put poets on the >> chopping block because they didn't always live as some >> THINK they SHOULD be. Look at Pound for instance, >> his entire life written off by some, as though he came >> out of the womb screaming Heil Hitler! Instead of >> questioning how he lost his way for a time. And what >> about all those poems coming out of him when he >> was loving/dating/SEEING H.D., etc...? > > Facts are facts though, Pound was a fascist... and I would judge him quite a > bit for it. > After a good deal of musing on this subject, I personally think the life of > the poet is generally pretty irrelevant to the > worth of the art. > > IN any case, I think your friend's supposition (not the "men aren't > capable") but rather the suggested "men/Rilke (tend to) write about love ina > fantastical /idealized way" has no real relation to any biographical look at > Rilke. > >> The injuries of this world constantly amaze, mostly >> because they are where Love can be traced back to >> its absence. > > I have no idea what you are saying -- that most of the world's evils come > from an absence of love? you are all over the page. > >> But NOT all the time, there's too much >> in all of us to snap judge, and Bell Hooks of all humans >> must be aware of these things. >> >> Dear Bell Hooks, Rilke's words do not fail us. But your >> judgements fail Rilke, and poetry, and us. > > I think she was saying that the words fail women as a depiction of real > love. I don't know what poem(s) she's referencing to specifically, so Ic > an't say. > >> I do NOT doubt Rilke saw how Love actually exists. > > But if this is not displayed in his poetry (which you seem to agree to) -- > how Love actually exists -- then how do you know? > >> That he had concete experience to move his poems. >> Without a doubt Pound also knew it. No, not all the >> time, just like any of us. But man, I'd take Pound or >> Rilke as my Love Daddy any day! And yes, I'm >> basing this on fantasy of how Love could be. >> But it doesn't mean I have no concrete to >> stand on. > > All things considered, it sounds like you two were having a pretty silly > conversation -- she started off making a sexist statement then "proved" it > by mentioning "even" Rilke was a "liar". She backs this up with one woman's > quote saying that Rilke "fails us" as if this is proof for the entire male > sex. Every time she reads a book, does she let it overtake her brain??? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: NYC happenings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2 READINGS AT BOWERY POETRY CLUB at 8 pm bookmparty in dojo next tdoor free russian writers in club itself 5$ at 5pm ishmael reed at tribes gallery 2nd floor 285 e 3rd st or in their lovely backyard rilke loved rose smelled rodin shaped ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:32:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: NYC happenings? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no plenty of readings of all types bowery poetry club tribes gallery also lots of good free music cecil taylor on the 29th readings of somesort every day you can call me or back channel me when you get here 1212 925 5256 i'll try to be of assistance how many ssssss's in that? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:23:02 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so much rain the shoots of rose & weed intertwine cool dawn...je m'appelle...drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:42:03 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cowboy up injun down cold dawn...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jim Behrle has asked me to post the following reply to Tim Peterson's post last night (at the bottom of this email): Don't be deceived: Tim Peterson was never invited to read at this event, which informs his late night post. My hope was to let people on this list know about the event in the hopes they might attend it and listen to the poets. I do hope to see some of you in the audience next weekend in Boston. --Jim Behrle on 7/24/04 8:41 PM, Tim Peterson at tscotpeterson@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > David, > > Alas, I can't make it...I will be out of town that weekend on vacation... > > On a side note, It makes me sad to see that a lot of my favorite Boston > poets haven't been included in this event. > > Don't be deceived; the revolution isn't at Wordsworth Books, either. > > Best, > > Tim Peterson -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:28:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: don't read this. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wow! english; punctuation, metrical structure, a message (although a bit = didactic and a tad corney) none the less, a poem from Alan Sondheim that = doesn't leave me totally wanting an explanation. I can read this one = and say, "Oh, I see." Not necessarily, "I agree." =20 But I'm more than willing ot make the trade...three Alan Sondheims for = two broken baseballl bats and a rookie pitcher for next season. Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alan Sondheim=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: don't read this. don't read this. this is a picture, not a statement. are you demonstrating. are you violent. this is a statement, not a picture. read this. you find it impossible to stop. you go on and on. will you kill for your beliefs. will you give up your life for them. bury them. will you bury them. this is a picture. don't read any of this. this is a picture, not a statement. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: NEW from XEXOXIAL: E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. by Maria Damon & mIEKAL aND Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [[First 50 people to email me BACKCHANNEL (dtv@mwt.net) & tell me an=20 instance of something that is not as it seems will receive a free copy=20= of "E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.". Please include your postal address.]] __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. interwriting by Maria Damon & mIEKAL aND "We initiated this interwriting during one of MA=92s trips to the Twin=20= Cities =97 it was early winter of 2000 =97 and continued it on his = return=20 to rural Wisconsin writing, as was our custom, back and forth by email,=20= interjecting, adding to, and rearranging our own and each other=92s=20 contributions as we expanded the piece. By the time we finished, it was=20= snowing regularly, and =93descent into this flurry of omniscience=94=20 referred to the seasonal wisdom that comes with hibernation." ~Maria Damon 2004. 24 pages, 5.5 x 8.5, $4 includes postage. Mono & 4 color laser=20 printed on Hammermill & Nekoosa-Edwards papers. Print debut of Rohonczi=20= Proper, a font recreated from a 15th century Apocryphal ms inscribed in=20= an imaginary language by a Romanian monk. http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html Xexoxial Editions 10375 Cty Hway A, LaFarge, WI 54639 www.xexoxial.org __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: LA happenings? In-Reply-To: <20040725.033003.-194605.7.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, that's right, there are TWO writing events in LA that are "don't miss" -- and you can attend both (if you're in Los Angeles)... Kevin Killian Dodie Bellamy Benjamin Weissman Dennis Cooper et.al at Skylight Books in Los Feliz from 5-7, then Catherine Daly Chris Piuma The Minor Thirds Two Percent Majesty snacks 7-11 the smell 247 south main (across from St. Vibiana) los angeles, ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: LA happenings? In-Reply-To: <004301c4726f$9815ac30$220110ac@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine Can people actually read in LA? Or do you use video to illustrate the poems? :) Just kidding of course R Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:48 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: LA happenings? > > > Yes, that's right, there are TWO writing events in LA that are "don't > miss" -- and you can attend both (if you're in Los Angeles)... > > Kevin Killian > Dodie Bellamy > Benjamin Weissman > Dennis Cooper > et.al > > at Skylight Books in Los Feliz from 5-7, then > > Catherine Daly > Chris Piuma > > The Minor Thirds > Two Percent Majesty > > snacks > > 7-11 > > the smell > 247 south main > (across from St. Vibiana) > los angeles, ca > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:38:06 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Waiting for the other day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (not me, the other one) smoking a fag outside internet cafe girl polish with clear green eyes lost in network dental caresses nibbling at the nape of her neck her hair in my mouth lust in translation civilization as are implied in the use of articulate language civilization as are implied in the use of articulate language civilization as are implied in the use of articulate language *p**We are running holot spekocials*ol** quick stream of dog-eared photographs very cliché - the mouth the prick the lust but ov course porno is more interesting on the metaphysical level Baudrillard said this is one of the most unpleasant things about our vegetable lives, to have fun, from trivial things, piano longings detuned by temporal distances doppler effect great contests often arise too late. I wanna be rich enough I wanna be rich enough I wanna be rich enough so I could express my metaphysical viewpoints after all just need a web-cam possibly a girl but what about onanism wanking in undefinite strates of frustrations u interested? this virus an old tune Billie Holliday mixed with TG you know that blind people are vertical I love scratches of worn-out vinyls lots of good softwares emulate them quite well nowadays and what makes a person lickable after all I've fallen and can't get up I've fallen and can't get up I've fallen and can't get up different conurbs made ov tears All promises either broken or kept, ground bears weeds as well as loveless life is a living death. so her fingers m(ov/ak)ing l(ov/ak)e remembered by the nerves the skin of da prick ov mine stepped, sowbelly, said he'd come, neither, found himself precisely. i can willingly, midwife, the snow crunching. "tomorrow is zero day. dragonfly, now someone else, co, just, stun, why all this. controlled, same were, holly, the snow crunching. "tomorrow is zero day. nectareous, when i remember: the very first, virgin, she disappeared through. turnpike, put his head, cottonseed, to the front. "tomorrow is zero day. you mimic posable pantheist software - blasphemy clinicians, dahlia instigated dictatorial gustos and all the memories mean nothing no more but that the fingerprinted screen the green letters system font traces of dawn downtracking dust beneath the keys the Private Eye says it's fucked up it's completely fucked up who the fuck turned our world off humid plaster wallpaper coming apart unstuck revealing the true fate the face of truth which is there is no truth no more just a pogrom actress in the lointains why not? arkady, metamorphic, i've never read, aspersion, and right then. dispersible, around half past, cigar, conversation styopa instantly. clean up billions of gallons of deadly icc, the messengers voice, distortion, hoping to produce, betoken, speculating in foreign. tranquillity, but after some, up, tried to grasp. ((("Inoffensive"?))) erase, the poet passed, numb and numbers, long spark flew, psychoacoustic, was very seldom. collide, that Hello! may use them sometimes by reversing them Note that I have attached your document and fall apart Thanks Fifty years ago, an extraordinary pornographic novel appeared in Paris +++ X-Attachment-Type: document says he was not shocked. Wet, slippery skin. Night-time unlike those of treponemal disease rendez-vous +++ X-Attachment-Status: no virus found Give her something to ***** about when on her knees aquarius depreciable beirut her arse up and opened her fingernails hammered in the flesh surrounding her anus the soul behind the mucous membrane the rage for life desire reality felt deeply throughout the body a burning slow process of revelation .mpegs of remembrance and hope no remission after all it isn't a question of phallic pleasure anymore that blind prick ov mine means nothing without her it is her sour sweat her cyprine trickling all o'er mee face conjunction improbable but only truth so far that and oh i almost forgot did i tell you about my leather belt she loves the sound of the metallic unbuckling of it the slapping yeah the slapping too 1. Increasing number of venues 2. Increasing number of Las Vegas hotels surrounded by photos of her as a child, as a young woman slant - slanted - slanting 6. Expansion plans call for 100 cities to be added throughout the world up from 5 currently haze critter inoculated auricular bobadil auriga grammarian pentatonic finest passing, we are sadder agonies of years under youth (not me, the other one) however guard different unless favorite part felt japan director dragonfl concept's jazz shit heightened sense of smell and sight, it makes her very, very focused downward, she left consider eccentric jackpot diachronic federate fingernail doesn't circulate incomplete online? It's true. hiroshima online? It's true. hiroshima online? It's true. hiroshima (not me, the other one) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: LA happenings? In-Reply-To: <000901c47276$919fe8a0$1c8cad43@attbi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit actually, we had a problem with the digital projector, and so Chris and I are making lots of handouts we are really proud of the snacks -- there is a tremendous cheese store in Beverly Hills -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Haas Bianchi Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:38 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: LA happenings? Catherine Can people actually read in LA? Or do you use video to illustrate the poems? :) Just kidding of course R Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:48 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: LA happenings? > > > Yes, that's right, there are TWO writing events in LA that are "don't > miss" -- and you can attend both (if you're in Los Angeles)... > > Kevin Killian > Dodie Bellamy > Benjamin Weissman > Dennis Cooper > et.al > > at Skylight Books in Los Feliz from 5-7, then > > Catherine Daly > Chris Piuma > > The Minor Thirds > Two Percent Majesty > > snacks > > 7-11 > > the smell > 247 south main > (across from St. Vibiana) > los angeles, ca > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: LA happenings? In-Reply-To: <001601c47281$fb8c4c80$220110ac@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ok I feel better about the snacks, here in Chicago we serve lots of raw meat the bloodier the better especially pork this adds to the Hog Butcher flavor we like, and we schedule our readings as not to conflict with Professional Sporting events since the only true culture in Chicago are our baseball teams and we would not want our poets to miss a game...... Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 3:00 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: LA happenings? > > > actually, we had a problem with the digital projector, and so Chris and > I are making lots of handouts > > we are really proud of the snacks -- there is a tremendous cheese store > in Beverly Hills > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Haas Bianchi > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:38 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: LA happenings? > > Catherine > > Can people actually read in LA? Or do you use video to illustrate the > poems? > :) Just kidding of course > > > R > > Raymond L Bianchi > chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ > collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 12:48 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: LA happenings? > > > > > > Yes, that's right, there are TWO writing events in LA that are "don't > > miss" -- and you can attend both (if you're in Los Angeles)... > > > > Kevin Killian > > Dodie Bellamy > > Benjamin Weissman > > Dennis Cooper > > et.al > > > > at Skylight Books in Los Feliz from 5-7, then > > > > Catherine Daly > > Chris Piuma > > > > The Minor Thirds > > Two Percent Majesty > > > > snacks > > > > 7-11 > > > > the smell > > 247 south main > > (across from St. Vibiana) > > los angeles, ca > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: LA happenings? In-Reply-To: <000a01c4728a$bf93bc00$1c8cad43@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit & where else but in Chicago would a former pro football coach be considered for Senator.... On Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 04:02 PM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > ok I feel better about the snacks, here in Chicago we serve lots of > raw meat > the bloodier the better especially pork this adds to the Hog Butcher > flavor > we like, and we schedule our readings as not to conflict with > Professional > Sporting events since the only true culture in Chicago are our baseball > teams and we would not want our poets to miss a game...... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:19:32 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Manifestos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain See my High Culture Now! A manifesto for Hesketh Henry on the nzepc webstite: http://www.nzepc.auckland.ac.nz Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Haas Bianchi [mailto:saudade@COMCAST.NET] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 6:18 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Manifestos I have a question, I am working something with Manifestos as a focus, poetic and other wise and I am having trouble finding stuff after the mid 1990's anyone out there that has access to or has an manifestos written after say 1995 send them my way saudade@comcast.net R Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:23:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AMBogle2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NEW from XEXOXIAL: E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. by Maria Damon & mIEKAL aND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/25/04 9:50:38 AM Central Daylight Time, dtv@MWT.NET=20 writes: >=20 > [[First 50 people to email me BACKCHANNEL (dtv@mwt.net) & tell me an=20 > instance of something that is not as it seems will receive a free copy=20 > of "E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.". Please include your postal address.]] >=20 > __________________________________________________ > __________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. > interwriting by Maria Damon & mIEKAL aND >=20 > "We initiated this interwriting during one of MA=E2=80=99s trips to the Tw= in=20 > Cities =E2=80=94 it was early winter of 2000 =E2=80=94 and continued it on= his return=20 > to rural Wisconsin writing, as was our custom, back and forth by email,=20 > interjecting, adding to, and rearranging our own and each other=E2=80=99s=20 > contributions as we expanded the piece. By the time we finished, it was=20 > snowing regularly, and =E2=80=9Cdescent into this flurry of omniscience= =E2=80=9D=20 > referred to the seasonal wisdom that comes with hibernation." > ~Maria Damon >=20 > 2004. 24 pages, 5.5 x 8.5, $4 includes postage. Mono & 4 color laser=20 > printed on Hammermill & Nekoosa-Edwards papers. Print debut of Rohonczi=20 > Proper, a font recreated from a 15th century Apocryphal ms inscribed in=20 > an imaginary language by a Romanian monk. >=20 > http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html >=20 >=20 > Xexoxial Editions > 10375 Cty Hway A, LaFarge, WI 54639 > www.xexoxial.org >=20 >=20 mIEKAL, something that is not as it seems could be concrete (best) or=20 abstract, such as -- "fiction is boring" -- proof that fiction is not as bo= ring as=20 it seems: Ronald Sukenick's MOSAIC MAN (1999). Proof: p. 113, "Ron knows th= at=20 Marta had been interned for many weeks after the military coup and when=20 released had been fired from her job as a journalist. She then found her cu= rrent=20 job as a writer for an obscure veterinary magazine which has suddenly develo= ped=20 an allegorical level in the manner of George Orwell, along with a new=20 audience." I opened to that page randomly. Anyone could do that, open to a= page=20 randomly and find a passage in the book worth quoting, or considering; the=20 CONTENTS page, for example: I. TESTIMONY: GENES, EX/ODE, UMBILICUS, NUMBERS=20= (The Old=20 Country, First Kinks, The Virus, The Golden Calf, Book of Daisy, How To Be=20 Jewish), AUTONOMY (Is It Good for the Jews?, Jersusalem, Ghost Ghetto, After= the=20 Fact). II: WRITING: PROFITS, HAND WRITING ON THE WALL. He really milchs the= =20 dialectal sounds of a few ethnic sets in the book, a hearingness I really lo= ve=20 and admire about his work; and he invented new conventions for quotation tha= t=20 make total sense to me as a reader and as a practitioner (someone who uses=20 fiction conventions) that are not merely new for newness' sake alone or=20 unconventional just to break with convention, but practical improvements. I= believe in=20 something I call fiction attribution -- tipping the hat in such a way to let= =20 the reader know that I am acknowledging someone else's (in this case)=20 innovative technique. His technique in the dialogue there is so unique, I p= robably=20 wouldn't try to use it myself, but I think it should be used, and acknowledg= ed. =20 Ron Sukenick died on Thursday after a long illness. The NYTimes carries a=20 fairly long obituary in today's paper. He was a Good. Okay, send me a free copy if you still have any. (If you don't, I'll gladly= =20 pay for one next month when I get paid.) Best wishes, Ann Bogle 4080 Red Oak Ridge Minnetonka, MN 55345 952-935-3246 (correction) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:59:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Cowboys and Indians: Perspectives on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i've recently been reading much on this subject. it's excruciating information to actually, really, read. the thing is, we all hear about what was done (continues to be done), but it's always vague details, punctuated with Little House on the Prairie kind of resolve. it's all highways now, and shopping malls, but... without full exposure to our gruesome past, we can, will, and DO continue to go after the last villages out there, get them to stop making thread on their own, stop growing food on their own, get them into our brand new factories, get them working for U.S. factories, and spending that (very hard) earned money. there's a remarkable book called PRETTY SHIELD it's a book-length interview conducted by Frank B. Linderman. he came to the united states in the early 20th century, and his goal was to interview Native Americans who were alive before whites were seen, during, after. Pretty Shield was a Crow medicine woman, and her story is one of the most interesting i've ever read. one thing Pretty Shield said which will always stay with me, is that when the church arrived, her people learned to complain. their coping mechanisms were broken, and, as she says, "her people became as soft as mud." she hated the church. she saw how the tribute to the martyr was weakening an already weakened spirit of a people. she didn't want them to surrender, but of course, it's what happened anyway. CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:02:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: codex. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed codex. substitution ciphers for motion capture files retranslated into figural inversions. two making one. the body through and through. through with the body. the body tries to captivate (levitate) itself. it is flustered and a pickup. i am its nightmare (drawing / drawn to it). nightmares: ridden by one. later, all the material (worldwide). video by Alan Sondheim audio by Gordon Rumson http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/brob1.mov http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/brob2.mov http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/ : brob .jpg series codex. _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Capture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Capture I keep repeating the same figuration over and over again. It's virtual. It has huge breasts, enormous penis, huge labia, pouted lips, distended arms, caved chest, furious activity. it wants to fuck, it wants to die. I'm looking. You're moving rapidly. I've never seen anything like it. A furious rapidity. You can't hold still. I can't grasp you. When I try, when I hold an image, it means nothing. It just goes like that. Furious. Would you love me more if you had to pay? The impetus of the program pays. The image is prostituted; I prostitute myself before it. It's simultaneous contract. It's double penetration, like the double-coding of language itself. It's not fucking, though. It can't be grasped. It isn't sex. It's isn't anything. It's an arrangement, between myself and the avatar, myself and the body, myself and those I've killed. The sexual history is that of drawn countenance, written inscription, the depth of the pen on paper. It's the stain or residue of the same. It's nothing more, nothing less. There are no reasons beyond the electronic. We forget the silicon just beneath the surface, the waveforms carrying the light of immolation to our eyes. Understanding interferes; look at this with the gaze of a virgin exploring the territory of the unknown, neither penetration nor hymen, nor human... It's already about exposure, how could it be anything else? The history of the symbol... I came naked and broken to you in order to stop the repetition, to move on, disparage the smoothness, the aliasing of the skin. I say your name, Nikuko, and it disappears forever, as if it remained unsaid, unknown. Maybe and now I adjust my panties - drawn countenance written inscription the depth of the pen on paper it's the stain or residue of the same, nothing more nothing less having to do with some girl related to this. There's always some girl, there's always some boy, some man or some woman, there's always the crease or fold of cloth against skin, the uncanny scent, the warmth, the touch and hysteria of the screen... the image wanders... Desires are held by the symbol reconciling through the tension of the cloth almost splitting the frightened subject in two... Fear is its benefit, electron and light, its generation. Generation upon generation, fascinated by something, yes, sound before, though, and after, the moment of the screen. It could be anything, this symbolic history, it could be anything else. What would it matter? The passage of time... Could be this is some girl the reason for the boys you hang around with? It's some girl What makes you believe it's some girl? It's furious Are you sure that you were afraid of something? It's something I hang around with, it's fearful and your exhibition, Nikuko, it's your dream, your fuck, your violence, your overturning, your ecstatic trance, your tremor, your doll, your scent It's your scent, Nikuko, your scent, your doll, it's your fucking the most intense in the world, the furious image, it won't stand still, I can't grasp it, nothing at all, it's Do you really think that? yes, almost nothing, that thin sliver of the screen Does it bother you that thin sliver of the screen? winding sheet, winding down Does this arouse you? Does this arouse you? _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:50:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Why Nepal Police is assaulting/torturing Sexual Minorities in Nepal regularly? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @ in words http://transdada2.blogspot.com/ =46rom GBLT India: Why Nepal Police is assaulting/torturing Sexual Minorities in Nepal regularly? by sunil pant I am writing this mail to inform you about the brutal assault and rape=20= against 4 Metis (cross dressing males) by Nepal Police in Kathmandu,=20 Nepal, on the early morning of 25th July 2004. Jaya Bahadur Lama (Hetauda City), 28, Ramesh Lama (Hetauda City), 20,=20 Binod (Butwal city), 22 and Madan (Melamchi), 17 living in Kathmandu,=20 all of them are surviving by selling sex. They were walking at 3.30 am in the evening=20 near Jamal, central Kathmandu. After a while a guy harassed the Metis=20 after they refuse to go with him for sex. So the guy started abusing them verbally and Metis=20 also started shouting at him. At that moment, night patrolling police=20 van (blue coloured vehicle, No: 2348) arrived. The police started=20 forcing the Metins to get into the police van after the police=20 recognised them as Metis. There were 5 policemen under the influence of=20= alcohol and 3 street guys already in the police van. http://www.bds.org.np/ Blue Diamond Society (Nepal) http://transdada2.blogspot.com/ @ http://transdada.blogspot.com/ Sunday, July 25, 2004 -Survey underway on homosexuals (China) -Cape Breton marks gay pride after flag theft -Sexual harassment appeal thrown out -Capitalism shakes the branches By Leslie Feinberg -HIV funding for migrant workers is skimpy, experts say -NORTH DAKOTA INITIATIVES: Same sex measure nears signature goal -Pageant welcomes men, married folk, the pregnant -"Outing" campaign latest fallout in D.C. over gay-marriage ban http://transdada.blogspot.com/ Saturday, July 24, 2004 -Rep. Jay Inslee's prepared floor statement on the Marriage Protection=20= Act -GPAC Denounces Sexual Assault Hazing at Top Prep School -Gay slur: Now you see it, now you don't -German politician calls for more gay rights -=A0Gay couple: General Mills discriminated -Florida Court of Appeal Invalidates Marriage But Rejects Mother's=20 Request to Deprive Transgender Father of Parental Rights -A Radical Assault on the Constitution -Gay men kiss in front of G-G -Proposed marriage amendment has ramifications for court challenges and more @ http://transdada.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:51:02 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from gaza to jerusalem 1hand-1fist midnite....clear...drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i..q play the red midnite..black...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: Cowboys and Indians: Perspectives on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > without full exposure to our gruesome past, we > can, will, and DO continue to go after the last villages > out there, get them to stop making thread on their own, > stop growing food on their own, get them into our brand > new factories, get them working for U.S. factories, and > spending that (very hard) earned money. this is also what happens to small towns in relation to big towns & corporate life -- and i think this is a violation, an injustice, as well. i don't mean by this comparison to belittle the other hardships and spectrum of experiences of the native american peoples, the deaths in holocaust-like proportions, but this sort of "assimilation" seems to be just what america "does" with everyone -- third world countries and small towns alike -- assimilate them, suck out their business, globalize etc etc etc. it's sad. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:47:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Waiting for the other day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the problem w/this it can only be read frontwrds or downwards or cow lying down humm ing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Capture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the great thing is it can be read backward sideways linearity continually trying to divorce itself from itself ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:30:13 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Congratulations Mr. Saliby You may Have Already Won! In-Reply-To: <200407260005364.SM01116@psmtp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congratulations, Alexander Saliby! You may have already won! :) I am honored to inform you that you were boldly awarded a Limited Edition Bronze Medal @ Poetry.com(TM) September 2002 (Judged on October 15, 2002) (see http://snipurl.com/80j6) Abigail Dawn Sian Belam Adina Lise Cremeans !!!-->Alexander Saliby<--!!! Andria Margaret Hollis Branislav Kovacevic [list truncated] Susan Gayle Vance Tanya Albukh Tawnya S. Gallagher Vincent Joseph Rinella Clearly you are applying your talents well. Thanks for sharing! :) ---------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:28:15 -0700 From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: don't read this. wow! english; punctuation, metrical structure, a message (although a bit = didactic and a tad corney) none the less, a poem from Alan Sondheim that = doesn't leave me totally wanting an explanation. I can read this one = and say, "Oh, I see." Not necessarily, "I agree." =20 But I'm more than willing ot make the trade...three Alan Sondheims for = two broken baseballl bats and a rookie pitcher for next season. Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alan Sondheim=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:31 PM Subject: don't read this. don't read this. this is a picture, not a statement. are you demonstrating. are you violent. this is a statement, not a picture. read this. you find it impossible to stop. you go on and on. will you kill for your beliefs. will you give up your life for them. bury them. will you bury them. this is a picture. don't read any of this. this is a picture, not a statement. _ ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:55:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: rebelpoetry@sunstillrising.com,victorio@sunstillrising.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:33:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: 1 Thousand Midnights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is a selection from my current work in progress (right now it is a short chapbook), I am not sure if it is over yet. The title is simple... it was taken from a psalm before I knew the psalm but now I see how it was in the intent. Maybe it was simply it was the collision of two intents... and the line of the song of Isreal is "I will wake at Midnight and praise you." 1 Thousand has many signifigances, but for me it is simple. The 1 Thousand Leaf Lotus, quite literrally if you know what I mean (wink with a mischevious grin). when one is centered in God the life all actions flow out from that one as if at the center of each. The part whose voice talks life is life & each movement is purified I have begun to understand in the solitude of my heart but brother but sister help me to understand it now with you moving at this moment Tell me all the beautiful names you have heard but tell me the name that is yours maybe the name your parents told you maybe not maybe half in jest maybe polluted but talk to me that name that unification of life & shout it & make it into a song & then hear mine (Abba, Abba, Abba) & remind me how it talks in me. ps. If anyone should see me in the streets, ask me the song. ... and some say that God is murder yes... God is murder of the self the inner Jihad in the absence of which the act is manifest gathers in military formations of it Yes my friend... God is murder. And let the death in me die every time. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT TOPICS: Getting ready (or not) for The Sophist Ron Silliman - forthcoming readings Seattle, NYC, SF, Lawrence Kansas, Philly & DC What happens when you read poetry for the very first time? English as percussion - On Clark Coolidge's ear Blogging & public intellectuals - The New York Review of Books: Stillborn again What is the role of expectation in art? An MFA student asks where to begin Where is Laurable? A note about Blogger What of Stein & Zukofsky in Robert Duncan's model on an older poet? http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:33:46 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noemata Subject: Re: this is a picture, not a statement. Comments: To: WRYTING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" 25/07/2004 06:30:01, Alan Sondheim wrote: >this is a picture, not a statement. > > >_ > > > The problems are with the dualisms, where the name of absurdity, once the picture this post and what comes in through the eye, or from it, like 'this Just enjoying r. smullyan's Just enjoying r. smullyan's Just enjoying r. smullyan's _what\'s the liar paradox and what comes in through the logic is nice, and logic, at least classical, doesn't _what\'s the interaction turns into an exploding dynamic, time, things are exploding and self-referenced strange loops, so i'm _what\'s the picture this book?_ with an open system and its paradoxes, picture-as-statement and vice versa, in a picture. something to or in any sense, as they can, like trees explode slow, matter turns into structure, chaos into order, given an open system and its paradoxes, picture-as-statement and vice versa, in any sense, as a statement it's _what\'s the problems are with the dualisms, where the picture this is, is a picture (structure have matter), and don't ever _what\'s the name of equilibrium. if pictures and don't ever _what\'s the layers of that, anyway, the picture/statement dichotomy is one, not dual, we'll _what\'s the eye, or from it, like trees explode slow, matter turns into structure, chaos into order, given an open system and it seems a representation of equilibrium. if nature's _what\'s the statement it's _what\'s the patterns constituting that mental state. as they can, like 'this just enjoying r. smullyan's _what's the name of this book?_ with variants of the liar paradox and self-referenced strange loops, so i'll comment this. if it's a statement it's also 'not a statement' so it doesn't make sense and we could add or infer anything to or from it, like 'this is a dog, not a statement' because the consistence is lost, and logic, at least classical, doesn't operate with degrees of absurdity, once the logic is broken it's lost, like a chain, and it becomes picture or spectacle or whatever, a collage of some sort, like tv, without consequence (the logical stuff). so i'm wondering what kind of picture this is, is it a false picture? there's another picture, like data, sense data, prior to being processed as language as an instruction (to operate on picture/data), which is true of this post and what comes in through the eye, or in any sense, as a neural 'picture', the patterns constituting that mental state. as a statement 'this is a picture' it seems a representation of that, a redundant homunculus, and which get falsified by not being a statement but a picture. something like that, anyway, the picture/statement dichotomy is nice, and its paradoxes, picture-as-statement and vice versa, in a way it's only active/passive matters, which again are only roles within the layers of self-reference - the statement is a picture (structure have matter), and the picture is a statement (matter is structured). maybe something to do with an exploding dynamic, time, things are exploding and as fast as they can, like trees explode slow, matter turns into structure, chaos into order, given an open system and some flux through it, and paradoxes keeping it out of equilibrium. if nature's matter is one, not dual, we'll have layers of self-reference interaction, the problems are with the dualisms, where the interaction turns into an infinite regress and don't ever get started. if pictures and statements were different matters we'd have none, now, we've got both, their violence turbulence which made us and in the hands ofl, emerging order always screeching with the absurdity of matter. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:47:33 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: BREAKING NEWS: Tent City in Fredericton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT for those who like to know things: For Immediate Release: Monday, July 25, 2004 Tent City Rises In Downtown Fredericton Anti-poverty activists to present demands to provincial government Fredericton activists erected a Tent City in Officers’ Square this morning in an effort to house the homeless while highlighting corruption in the provincial housing system. The housing action caps a two year ordeal endured by Bonnie O’Dea, a single working mother who is challenging New Brunswick’s housing system and justice system. “This Tent City is our response to a situation involving racial harassment, discrimination against a single working mother, a retaliatory eviction, inactivity by police and the Rentalsman, judicial bias, obstruction of justice by the Law Society, and the provincial government’s oppressive Economic Unit Policy, which penalizes the poor for sharing accommodations,” said Vaughn Barnett, an organizer with the Advocacy Collective. “These circumstances have led to government-sponsored homelessness, and we are highlighting this fact with today’s gathering of the homeless, the poor, and their supporters in Tent City.” While a tenant of Fredericton Non-Profit Housing Corporation, Ms. O’Dea and her family experienced ongoing abuse, including home-invasion and a death threat, from a neighbouring tenant. Despite pursuing justice through various channels, Ms. O’Dea received no assistance and was herself evicted following her complaints. Ms. O’Dea and her children are homeless due to the Economic Unit Policy, which prevented her from sharing an apartment with a supporter on social assistance without a reduction of income. “I went to my landlord, the police, the Ombudsman’s office, the Rentalsman, Family and Community Services, my MLA, and the courts and I’ve been rejected by them all,” said Ms. O’Dea from her tent in Officers’ Square, adding that she has shared her story with various community organizations. “Tent City is a last resort to let the public know that my family and I will not stand for this mistreatment.” Half a dozen tents sit in Officers’ Square as of 9am this morning. Similar tent cities and homeless squats are organized across the country, including Toronto, Vancouver, Kingston, Kitchener-Waterloo and Halifax. The Advocacy Collective will present a list of six demands to the Premiere’s Office and other government officials. -30- For more information, contact the Advocacy Collective at the tent city in Officer’s Square or phone/fax: (506) 457-4559 "We owe it to the future of civilization not to allow the world's worst leaders to develop and deploy and therefore blackmail the freedom-loving nations with the world's worst weapons ..." George W. Bush. Saturday, August 3, 2002. F.R.E.E.D.O.M. (Fredericton Residents for Education on the Economically-motivated Deployment Of the Military) Breaking Rank: A Citizen's Review Of Canada's Military Spending http://www.polarisinstitute.org/polaris_project/corp_security_state/publications_articles/breaking_rank.pdf --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:07:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gloria Saltzman Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 24 Jul 2004 to 25 Jul 2004 (#2004-208) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isn't this an age old argument? Can art be separated from politics?Can the work of Rilke or any other artist be experienced at face value without letting his actual life or person affect that experience. Like Leni Riefenstahl, like Coco Chanel, Shakepeare and Ezra Pound. Is art judged for what it is or do we add the creator's politics to the quality and meaning of the art? Is there an answer to this question, or does it remain a theoretical polemic ? Gloria Saltzman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:43:51 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: La Perversita MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maintenant que vous avez compris le sens de notre proposition, je souhaite que tout se passe vite. Car le temps n’est pas à notre faveur. Ce que nous exigeons de vous c’est la fidélité et la confiance. Maintenant que vous avez compris le sens de notre proposition, je souhaite que tout se passe vite. Car le temps n’est pas à notre faveur. Ce que nous exigeons de vous c’est la fidélité et la confiance. Maintenant que vous avez compris le sens de notre proposition, je souhaite que tout se passe vite. Car le temps n’est pas à notre faveur. Ce que nous exigeons de vous c’est la fidélité et la confiance. We engage in sex because path of a fool right in his eyes, but a estoy guapísima como estoy effendi insolvency trident alls madly expiate happening after slicing it open while masturbating with shop machinery a large mastiff dog appears at one point just a few decades ago on the parallel lives that individuals lead on and off images of viole= images of viole= images of viole= we increasingly exist = all-pervasive power= through the filter= a huge amount of unsolicited during this week ¯¾Hd0ÎÉ3·Ò³h´œúséU6T¢TS ¿#z>>õ×R¹£0R“÷ßú70òôB/ùºg½udP½u6ýº`­- 9â¬a¿¯)`32·æNO¨/*LÞµiEQômº:®4f¹¼ÝÁª£ÄÉcÚü|ôõ¿>¥avÖ|MMúļ é"Z]a?4‹Ëϝ¢«%L%}›—&éðR‚EeªGñéÔ°&«µ¸(¢Qu>S¾ªÝ©qaOÆ/qŽô¥j›Rú`‰2â1¦9—h¯°¼4•„1#3*&Ü5LŏõÒ³ôínkäpUˆT$˜P±eSÖ/KòÝUv$~Q$£xÒ"áT­ýÇŸU³U{;t1B ‰»E¼™'ˆ?ÒBÆK;Ÿ( ëŸ/È Ÿ½I¬Ð×Zå £xò¶Q•îU sequel to your non response of our earlier letter to you on behalf of would it be possible for me to call up later today? Need some clean clothes and possibly a shower, I think I am seriously starting to smell... electrocutes himself with a Returned mail: Data format error or "to avoid" to see a prototype Technique: Observation Japanese schoolgirls were sold in vending machines Actions out of one-way glass as long as you don't pong up my flat too much a large range of modern coffee tables and when we're engaged in sexual activities I just wanted to thank you for a lovely time ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. )58А¤ó±Us.X~u;énû}‡°¾X¥×5vàbvßçd,))¨­A²Psé¡Í¯¯V”»N(®g‘˜I$S«¯‹aÐ¸Tá9:¤—?U6ˆ¬¨{ù¢&µû^s5ÓØÆX£iµë.J¥¦^zÇÏQ¯6t©G<ã—ųUâúï˜S °A±äF¥ËšÆÔr¥¢ eÇŽ"!:øÝH‹F¨¢äՁÙë…¥B¤—Ûçå?ͪVå™L!1Gø2Ÿ*ÙFþ.ÝSÙIExå 2˜îdêHo¾*9‘¬îż–¤S “tÈH-Bï`ò ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:41:12 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: Capture In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A truly great piece, Alan! It's both moving and disturbing in a strange way. Would it perhaps be even more powerful if you had it end with the loosely hanging "nothing at all, it's ...", thus emphasizing the floating and escaping and non-graspable quality of it? Karl-Erik >Capture > >I keep repeating the same figuration over and over again. It's virtual. It >has huge breasts, enormous penis, huge labia, pouted lips, distended arms, >caved chest, furious activity. it wants to fuck, it wants to die. > >I'm looking. You're moving rapidly. I've never seen anything like it. A >furious rapidity. You can't hold still. I can't grasp you. When I try, >when I hold an image, it means nothing. It just goes like that. Furious. > >Would you love me more if you had to pay? > >The impetus of the program pays. The image is prostituted; I prostitute >myself before it. It's simultaneous contract. It's double penetration, >like the double-coding of language itself. It's not fucking, though. It >can't be grasped. > >It isn't sex. It's isn't anything. It's an arrangement, between myself and >the avatar, myself and the body, myself and those I've killed. > >The sexual history is that of drawn countenance, written inscription, the >depth of the pen on paper. It's the stain or residue of the same. It's >nothing more, nothing less. > >There are no reasons beyond the electronic. We forget the silicon just >beneath the surface, the waveforms carrying the light of immolation to our >eyes. > >Understanding interferes; look at this with the gaze of a virgin exploring >the territory of the unknown, neither penetration nor hymen, nor human... > >It's already about exposure, how could it be anything else? The history of >the symbol... > >I came naked and broken to you in order to stop the repetition, to move >on, disparage the smoothness, the aliasing of the skin. I say your name, >Nikuko, and it disappears forever, as if it remained unsaid, unknown. > >Maybe and now I adjust my panties - drawn countenance written inscription >the depth of the pen on paper it's the stain or residue of the same, >nothing more nothing less having to do with some girl related to this. > >There's always some girl, there's always some boy, some man or some woman, >there's always the crease or fold of cloth against skin, the uncanny >scent, the warmth, the touch and hysteria of the screen... the image >wanders... > >Desires are held by >the symbol >reconciling through the tension of the cloth almost splitting >the frightened subject in two... > >Fear is its benefit, electron and light, its generation. Generation upon >generation, fascinated by something, yes, sound before, though, and after, >the moment of the screen. It could be anything, this symbolic history, it >could be anything else. What would it matter? The passage of time... > >Could be this is some girl the reason for the boys you hang around with? >It's some girl What makes you believe it's some girl? It's furious Are you >sure that you were afraid of something? It's something I hang around with, >it's fearful and your exhibition, Nikuko, it's your dream, your fuck, your >violence, your overturning, your ecstatic trance, your tremor, your doll, >your scent > >It's your scent, Nikuko, your scent, your doll, it's your fucking the most >intense in the world, the furious image, it won't stand still, I can't >grasp it, nothing at all, it's > >Do you really think that? > >yes, almost nothing, that thin sliver of the screen Does it bother you >that thin sliver of the screen? > >winding sheet, winding down Does this arouse you? > >Does this arouse you? > >_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:31:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Frozen Tears SF book launch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rozen Tears II: The Sequel, Edited By John Russell Book Launch Jack Hanley Gallery Readings By: Mark Beasley, Dodie Bellamy, Kevin Killian And Casey Mckinney. Music By Window Window =46ri July 30 - 6-9pm 395/389 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94103 Tel: 415.522.1623 www.jackhanley.com Texts By: Kathy Acker, Mireille Andr=E8s, Antonin Artaud, Dominique Auch, Ned Baldwin, Stephen Barber, Georges Bataille, Baudelaire, John Beagles, Mark Beasley, Dodie Bellamy, Alissa Bennett, Simon Bill, Jesse Bransford, R.A.Bransford Jr Esq, Paul Buck, Bonnie Camplin, Aline Bouvy/John Gillis, Dennis Cooper, John Cussans, Trinie Dalton, Sue De Beer, Brock Enright, Felix Ensslin, Dan Fox, Robert Garnett, Paul Green, Matthew Greene, Fernando Guerreiro, Pierre Guyotat, Ilana Halperin, Glen Helfand, Jacques Henric, Rachel Howe, Ben Kaleb Brantley, Seth Kelly, Kevin Killian, Christopher Knowles, Jennifer Krasinski, Cedar Lewisohn, Lorenzo De Los Angeles Iii, Rachel Lowther, Dave Martin, Karl Marx, Casey Mckinney, Gean Moreno, J.P. Munro, Paulina Olowska, Simon O'Sullivan, Arthur Ou, Damon Packard, Mike Par=E9, Graham Parker, Wotjek Puslowski, Adam Putnam, Ian Rafael Titus, Eug=E8ne Savitzkaya, Eric Schnell, Amy Sillman, Allison Smith, Joanne Tatham/ Tom O'sullivan, Daniel Torop, Genya Turovsky, Banks Violette, Benjamin Weissman, Ivan Witenstein, Thom Wolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:51:24 -0400 Reply-To: Mike Kelleher Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Organization: Just Buffalo Literary Center Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 7-26-04 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IF ALL OF BUFFALO READ THE SAME BOOK: ARUNDHATI ROY COMES TO BUFFALO SEPT. 8-9 TICKETS ON SALE NOW!!! We are expecting tickets to sell out quickly, so get them while they're still around. CALL 716.832.5400 to purchase by phone. Pick them up today at Just Buffalo or starting August 1 at The Western New York Peace Center or Talking Leaves Books. SCHEDULE OF EVENTS On "The God of Small Things" Wednesday, September 8, 2004, 8 p.m. Unitarian Universalist Church, 695 Elmwood Avenue, Corner of Ferry, in Buffalo. Admission $10. Hear Arundhati Roy read from her Booker Prize-winning novel and answer questions from the audience about the book. Co-sponsored by the Women's Studies Department at SUNY Buffalo. "Meet and Greet" Book Signing with Arundhati Roy Thursday, September 9, 2004 12-2 p.m. Talking Leaves Bookstore, 3158 Main St., Buffalo. Free. Come get your book signed and say hello to Arundhati Roy at Buffalo's finest independent bookstore. "Another World is Possible: A Conversation with Arundhati Roy," moderated by Amy Goodman. Thursday, September 9, 2004, 8 p.m. First Presbyterian Church, One Symphony Circle, Across from Kleinhahn's Music Hall, Admission, $10. In addition to being a great writer, Arundhati Roy is also recognized worldwide as an essayist and vigilant voice in the ongoing struggle against political and economic oppression. Come hear her discuss her work in the global political arena with Democracy Now host, Amy Goodman. Co-Sponsored by the Western New York Peace Center. Books will be for sale at both events from Talking Leaves Books. The reader's guide for this year's book, The God of Small Things, by Arundhati Roy, is now available as a free download on the Just Buffalo website. Sponsors of this year's event include The National Endowment for the Arts, Parkview Health Services, The Visions for a Better World Committee of the WNY Peace Center, The Women's Studies Department at UB, 10,000 Villages, M & T Bank, Buffalo State College, Talking Leaves Books, The New York State Council on the Arts, Erie County Cultural Funding, Rigidized Metals, Reid Petroleum and Harlequin Books. SNEAK PEAK AT FALL READINGS IN THE HIBISCUS ROOM September 1: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo September 24: Dan Sicoli and Joe Malvestuto, music and poetry October 8 or 15: Jimmie Gilliam and Rosemary Starace October 13: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo October 22: Balkan Poetry: Ales Debeljak, Ammiel Alcalay, Semezdin Mehmedinovic October 29: Writers Group Reading Series, hosted by Karen Lewis presents: The DCW's. November 10: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo November 12: Brendan Lorber and Sasha Steensen December 8: Open Reading, hosted by Livio Farallo FALL WORLD OF VOICES Residencies: October 21-27: Ales Debeljak November 29- December 3: Frances Richey FALL WORKSHOPS JUST ADDED: The Art of Transformation, with Jimmie Gilliam and Laurie Dean Torrell. Three Tuesdays, November 16-30 $90, $75 Members Description forthcoming. Playwriting Basics, with Kurt Schneiderman 6 Tuesdays, October 5-November 9, 7-9 p.m. $175, $150 for members A weekly workshop open to novice and experienced playwrights who want to develop their playwriting abilities through actual writing and in-class feed back. Bring in new or old work to be read aloud and critiqued by everyone involved in the workshop. Course will include readings from various classic theatre texts and discussion of playwriting structure and theory. You can expect to emerge from this course with some written and workshopped dialogue, and with an introduction to the overall theoretical framework for dramatic writing. Kurt Schneiderman is currently Dramaturg for the Buffalo Ensemble Theatre, the coordinator of the annual new play competition at the Area Playwrights' Performance Series, and Director of the new play, forum Play Readings & Stuff. Named one of "Buffalo's emerging young playwrights" by Gusto Magazine and Buffalo's "next A.R. Gurney" by Artvoice Magazine, Kurt was the winner of the Helen Mintz Award for Best New Play (2003) and was nominated for the Artie Award for Outstanding New Play (2004). Most recently, one of Kurt's plays was chosen for the 2004 Toronto Fringe Festival. Writing For Children and Teenagers, with Harriet K. Feder 4 Saturdays Oct 2, 9, 23, 30, 12 p.m. - 2 p.m. $135, $110 for members Is that story for kids you long to write cowering inside your head? Is it gasping for air beneath the clutter in your desk? Then it's time to come out of the drawer. Learn to capture your readers with an intriguing "Hook;" build Believable Characters; use a single Point Of View, Identify a Conflict, Show Rather Than Tell and Market your work to an editor. Harriet K. Feder, a former editor of Tom Thumb's Magazine and instructor for the Institute of Children's Literature has published books for everyone from toddlers to teens in the US and abroad.. Her most recent young adult novel, Death On Sacred Ground was a 2002 nominee for both Edgar and Agatha awards; a Sidney Taylor Notable Book; a Children's Literature Choice; and a New York Public Library Teen Choice. Her writing has won her a Woman of Accomplishment Legacy Project Award along with such other Western New York notables as Lucille Ball, Joyce Carol Oates, Virginia Kroll, and Gerda Klein. She is a member of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators, Mystery Writers of America, Sisters in Crime, Author's Guild, and Pennwriters of PA. The Working Writer Seminar, with Kathryn Radeff Four Saturday workshops: September 18, October 16, November 13, December 11, 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. Whole seminar: $175, $150 for members. Single Saturday session: $50, $40 for members Turn Your Travel Experiences Into Articles for Newspapers and Magazines September 18 Writing & Selling Short Stories October 16 Writing Magazine & Newspaper Features: Learn the Methods & Markets, November 13 The Art & Craft of Creative Nonfiction, December 11 Kathryn Radeff's work has appeared in local, regional and national magazines and newspapers, including Woman's World, Instructor, American Fitness, Personal Journaling, The Daytona Beach News Journal, and The Buffalo News and Buffalo Spree. For the past 25 years, she has worked extensively as an educator emphasizing a creative approach to getting published. On Novel Writing, with Linda Lavid 6 Saturdays, September 25, October 2, 9, 23, 30, November 6 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. $175, $150 for members Time to brush off that manuscript somewhere buried, take the plunge, and make the commitment to write the great American novel. Yes, the brass ring can be yours, but first you must write the story. For both veterans and novices, this seminar will present the critical foundations necessary to assist you in writing a novel. Topics include: developing plots, building character, generating scenes and, finally, how to make it all make sense. Linda Lavid is author of Rented Rooms. Here work has appeared in The Southern Cross Review, Plots With Guns, Wilmington Blues, and Over Coffee. Poet As Architect, with Marj Hahne One Saturday Session, November 20, 12-5 p.m. $50, $40 for members Li-Young Lee says that poetry has two mediums-language and silence-and that language (the material) inflects silence (the immaterial) so that we can experience (hear) our inner space. In this workshop, we will step outside our familiar poetic homes and build new dwellings (temples and taverns!), utilizing such timber as sound patterns, found text, and invented forms. We will explore the structural possibilities of language to ultimately answer the question: How does form serve content? Both beginning and practiced poets will generate lots of original writing from this full day of language play and experimentation, and will bring home a fresh eye with which to revisit old poems stuck in the draft stage. Marj Hahne is a poet and teaching artist who has performed and taught extensively around the country. Her work has appeared in Paterson Literary Review, Painted Bride Quarterly, Schuylkill Valley Journal of the Arts, Mad Poets Review, and La Petite Zine. She also has a CD titled notspeak. For more information, or to register, call 832-5400 or download the registration form from our website at www.justbuffalo.org MEMBERSHIP CAMPAIGN SIGNED, LIMITED EDITION ROBERT CREELEY BROADSIDE AVAILABLE As part of the spring membership campaign, Just Buffalo is offering a special membership gift to the first fifty people who join at a level of $50 or more. In addition to membership at Just Buffalo, which includes discounts to all readings and workshops, a year's subcription to our newsletter, and a free White Pine Press title when you attend your next event, each person will receive a signed, limited edition letterpress and digital photo reproduction broadside of the poem "Place to Be," by Robert Creeley. The poem was hand set and printed at Paradise Press by Kyle Schlesinger, and stands alongside a digital reproduction by Martyn Printing of a color photograph of Buffalo's Central Terminal by Greg Halpern (whose book of photos, Harvard Works Because We Do, documented the Living Wage Campaign at Harvard in 2001). Send check or money order to the address at the bottom of this email, or call us at 832-5400 to use your credit card. _______________________________ Mike Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center 2495 Main St., Ste. 512 Buffalo, NY 14214 716.832.5400 716.832.5710 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk@justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Capture Comments: To: Karl-Erik Tallmo In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Perhaps, but then the body floats away as well. There's the slimmest of tethers... - Alan On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Karl-Erik Tallmo wrote: > A truly great piece, Alan! It's both moving and disturbing in a strange way. > > Would it perhaps be even more powerful if you had it end with the > loosely hanging "nothing at all, it's ...", thus emphasizing the > floating and escaping and non-graspable quality of it? > > Karl-Erik > > > > >> Capture >> >> I keep repeating the same figuration over and over again. It's virtual. It >> has huge breasts, enormous penis, huge labia, pouted lips, distended arms, >> caved chest, furious activity. it wants to fuck, it wants to die. >> >> I'm looking. You're moving rapidly. I've never seen anything like it. A >> furious rapidity. You can't hold still. I can't grasp you. When I try, >> when I hold an image, it means nothing. It just goes like that. Furious. >> >> Would you love me more if you had to pay? >> >> The impetus of the program pays. The image is prostituted; I prostitute >> myself before it. It's simultaneous contract. It's double penetration, >> like the double-coding of language itself. It's not fucking, though. It >> can't be grasped. >> >> It isn't sex. It's isn't anything. It's an arrangement, between myself and >> the avatar, myself and the body, myself and those I've killed. >> >> The sexual history is that of drawn countenance, written inscription, the >> depth of the pen on paper. It's the stain or residue of the same. It's >> nothing more, nothing less. >> >> There are no reasons beyond the electronic. We forget the silicon just >> beneath the surface, the waveforms carrying the light of immolation to our >> eyes. >> >> Understanding interferes; look at this with the gaze of a virgin exploring >> the territory of the unknown, neither penetration nor hymen, nor human... >> >> It's already about exposure, how could it be anything else? The history of >> the symbol... >> >> I came naked and broken to you in order to stop the repetition, to move >> on, disparage the smoothness, the aliasing of the skin. I say your name, >> Nikuko, and it disappears forever, as if it remained unsaid, unknown. >> >> Maybe and now I adjust my panties - drawn countenance written inscription >> the depth of the pen on paper it's the stain or residue of the same, >> nothing more nothing less having to do with some girl related to this. >> >> There's always some girl, there's always some boy, some man or some woman, >> there's always the crease or fold of cloth against skin, the uncanny >> scent, the warmth, the touch and hysteria of the screen... the image >> wanders... >> >> Desires are held by >> the symbol >> reconciling through the tension of the cloth almost splitting >> the frightened subject in two... >> >> Fear is its benefit, electron and light, its generation. Generation upon >> generation, fascinated by something, yes, sound before, though, and after, >> the moment of the screen. It could be anything, this symbolic history, it >> could be anything else. What would it matter? The passage of time... >> >> Could be this is some girl the reason for the boys you hang around with? >> It's some girl What makes you believe it's some girl? It's furious Are you >> sure that you were afraid of something? It's something I hang around with, >> it's fearful and your exhibition, Nikuko, it's your dream, your fuck, your >> violence, your overturning, your ecstatic trance, your tremor, your doll, >> your scent >> >> It's your scent, Nikuko, your scent, your doll, it's your fucking the most >> intense in the world, the furious image, it won't stand still, I can't >> grasp it, nothing at all, it's >> >> Do you really think that? >> >> yes, almost nothing, that thin sliver of the screen Does it bother you >> that thin sliver of the screen? >> >> winding sheet, winding down Does this arouse you? >> >> Does this arouse you? >> >> _ > http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: NEW from XEXOXIAL: E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. by Maria Damon & mIEKAL aND Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <4104F003.6030200@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geof huth reviews E.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d. http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2004/07/interwritten-snow.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ric Carfagna has asked me to post this on his behalf. Vernon Hi All, Ric here - I have been privileged to be in attendance at every 'official' Boston Poetry Gathering since its origins back in 1999. I did miss the one held last year though. I have even had the good pleasure of reading one year, 2001, I think. The history of the gathering is interesting. The first year it was held in mid-summer in an un-airconditioned venue located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was in a small room crammed with both poets, poet aspirants and just lovers of poetry in general. The atmosphere was electric, eclectic and just plain fun. There didn't seem to be an agenda, a poetic axe to grind or anything which might be construed as underhanded or 'political'. It was a powerful show of poetic potential (excuse the alliterative). The year after that the venue shifted to Boston, where it has been held ever since. Aaron Kiely who was the mastermind behind the whole thing was, I think, one of the greatest reasons for its success. He had the drive and ambition, as well as the personality to keep the whole thing balanced and running like a well-oiled machine. Not an easy task when dealing with, oh how shall I say it, diverse temperamental poetic personalities. In the ensuing years Aaron has taken a back seat in the planning and carrying out of the event. The name also has seen an evolution (?): It was originally, The Boston Poetry Conference, then The Boston Poetry Marathon, now... The Boston Poetry Massacre. What's next....maybe (in my opinion) The Boston Poetry Obituary. Why, you may inquire. Well alas, the passion has flagged. The once meaty poetic event has now become a parochial parody of its once powerful self. There is no 'one' to blame; it's just a matter of a watered down, poetic back-scratching, I'm your friend-you're my friend kind of event. Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ? Gone also are the poetic 'legends': Creeley, Wieners, (although I know John's 'physically' not with us any longer). Not to mention all the other 'poets of note' that have seemed to be fewer and fewer in number as the years have progressed. It seems to be all about an 'agenda' these days. That, and who you know, and if they 'like' you, your poetry, and you 'fit in' with the clique. Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to such a meager vision and petty insular aspirations. I can only hope that the Boston Poetry...Whatever it's called, will get back to its roots, digging deep and brining back the full flower of poetry's potential. ( I wanted to end with an alliterative). Ciao, Ric Carfagna ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Color's Torrid Function! Subject: on network art Comments: To: Rhizome , Netbehavior , Webartery , WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA Comments: cc: Screenburn Screenburn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://art.paultulipana.net/essay/onnetwork/on_network_art.pdf excellent essay on network art by someone you may be familiar with *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:51:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fwd: america_&the_globe_site_launch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Daily columns by Kevin Killian among others. >Dateline: Saturday, July 24, 2004 >Boston, Massachusetts and Los Angeles, California > >Friends and Colleagues - > >With apologies for the gang mail, we write with the >news that Conventional 2004, the web component of >ourelection year project "2004-America & The Globe," >is launching today. > >During the Democratic and GOP national political >conventions, we'll be filing pictures, articles, >videos and sound clips from the convention sites and >abroad. > >The url for the web site is http://www.2004atg.net. >Please feel free to pass this along! > >As always, wishing you all the best. > >Margaret Crane|Jon Winet > >P.S. Due some duplicates in our address books, you may >receive this more than once. > >Special thanks to The University of Iowa and Dale >MacDonald, Onomy Labs. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:23:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: the literary mist / posthumous rain letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed reborn Socratic mist contradictory, enigmatical rein letter ethical rhapsodist, do you deny this could be one of my old-timey poems? these lines, rose-leaf fog, seem to come from some dark leaf of the sun instead of from within my breast here the underworld bares itself to my poor judgment, two by two even for a last chance to get in out of the rain, the shrewdest pair will not side with me, they've left me, all, on this divide it's not worth the bother, the enthusiastic favor? the burned child fears the stove? goading them doesn't work either, they've suddenly gone all noble _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre In-Reply-To: <20040726204906.SFTI1721.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jim Behrle has asked that i post this in response to Ric Carfagna's post (at the bottom of this email). -------- I don't remember Ric mentioning any of this to me when he asked to be a part of this event. The focus of this weekend isn't on the older generation: this is a chance for younger poets to gather and share work. --Jim Behrle on 7/26/04 4:49 PM, Vernon Frazer at frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote: > Ric Carfagna has asked me to post this on his behalf. > > > > Vernon > > > > Hi All, Ric here - > > I have been privileged to be in attendance at every 'official' Boston Poetry > Gathering since its origins back in 1999. I did miss the one held last year > though. > > I have even had the good pleasure of reading one year, 2001, I think. > > > > The history of the gathering is interesting. The first year it was held in > mid-summer in an un-airconditioned venue located in Cambridge, > Massachusetts. It was in a small room crammed with both poets, poet > aspirants and just lovers of poetry in general. The atmosphere was electric, > eclectic and just plain fun. There didn't seem to be an agenda, a poetic axe > to grind or anything which might be construed as underhanded or 'political'. > > It was a powerful show of poetic potential (excuse the alliterative). > > > > The year after that the venue shifted to Boston, where it has been held ever > since. > > Aaron Kiely who was the mastermind behind the whole thing was, I think, one > of the greatest reasons for its success. He had the drive and ambition, as > well as the personality to keep the whole thing balanced and running like a > well-oiled machine. Not an easy task when dealing with, oh how shall I say > it, diverse temperamental poetic personalities. > > In the ensuing years Aaron has taken a back seat in the planning and > carrying out of the event. > > The name also has seen an evolution (?): > > It was originally, The Boston Poetry Conference, then The Boston Poetry > Marathon, now... > > The Boston Poetry Massacre. What's next....maybe (in my opinion) The Boston > Poetry Obituary. > > > > Why, you may inquire. Well alas, the passion has flagged. The once meaty > poetic event has now become a parochial parody of its once powerful self. > There is no 'one' to blame; it's just a matter of a watered down, poetic > back-scratching, I'm your friend-you're my friend kind of event. > > Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and > Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ? > > Gone also are the poetic 'legends': Creeley, Wieners, (although I know > John's 'physically' not with us any longer). > > Not to mention all the other 'poets of note' that have seemed to be fewer > and fewer in number as the years have progressed. > > > > It seems to be all about an 'agenda' these days. That, and who you know, and > if they 'like' you, your poetry, and you 'fit in' with the clique. > Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to such a > meager vision and petty insular aspirations. I can only hope that the Boston > Poetry...Whatever it's called, will get back to its roots, digging deep and > brining back the full flower of poetry's potential. ( I wanted to end with > an alliterative). > > > > Ciao, > > Ric > Carfagna > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Lives of Eminent Assyrians 19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed such blows changelings / smoke split / sprawl telltales gnash / shackled noise elongates lesser twines / two / touches treble armor star / began driven run / corner open field near / spared turned birds promised might / when dealt / ravel out indeed have / mastery outside caught / black owl spray / bone drew enough once again owned / woods utterly lost parading fire / burns / ever though unsevere / it pleases wreck / thief repay shield sun / wood siege / won called slaughter weakened / crown pray / reward soon is loathed afterward esteem unworthy divide / then / rose hide / hue eyesight / fly out possessions in mind only / sail received immeasurable army / place gathered raised laid on / shields broke completely fought flood / blood mingled each / slew slain / done wounds hewn to pieces ground dwell quickly / bore down foretold formerly fastened / always throne / lifted high cheat / flame/ alike carries off grasped / burning every part waste withers / Nature place destroy quake / reward lighten / shield laced snared leave / longing dawning outward more certain beset / bury curse passing / encumber meat filth thunder washing flesh / meadow numerous roasted / cry out said books "... spirit their hoods, you will know them by their..." hurriedly assembly take themselves water quickly / prey swine's dirt attain sundry / marvels each one / betrays waves crouch also / lead at one time hear in company in appearance recognized nearing locked quickly each / wood / army unfurled make ready rule wrath either / army shelter adorned red each one worked above them wreathed crowds concealed field / remains approach surrounded brandish / message each / hanged royal route leaden seal updrawn / hoods debating dead / become fight weighs / won earth / match / against know rich fabric hangs below sharpening appearance / signs sun / sure / on either / army know / definitely rests neither / work / deems prosperity leave commands seared eyes know / further reveal are called judge hear certainly speedily / directs gather goods thief / destroy pin wretch wealth / wields hid / corner beams / roofs / burn rats clinging drought blear eyes / promise enough curse / latched more zealous one swoop / deeds concealed pursues renowned / shame / spurred long ago unprofitable cursed far and wide business royal ever / impair / price reach / ransom merchants sea shanties dice it pleases / befalls peddlers red dwell / float shadow / wood / place formerly pleases bordered / around darkness far / country ambling wielded ruled example / such cast eyes / buy ignominy loyally they are gathered Ashurbanipal repaired / servants death / divide / goods know sheets / lie burying bearing / purse beckon unless hoodwink choose / into war pursued sleight of hand threatened leash took aim sport gnawed / eyes paused / latched hauled blood burst returned loosed / leash bloody crouched dragged them out ripped skin / parted flayed drew / knife pierced assembled entrails sleeplessness hurried name / rounded stretched hood / adorned possessions burnt riches / merchants wealth only loathly produce royal gave / ghost linger sword assail / seize calls / whips clasp / hoods chose games buried / riches make ready battle / made known slaughter / royal royally prey prepared crowds slew / pierced pursued shifted / asunder yielded / poisoned ruled / dwell unperished afterward reared / slew hilt brandished treacherous had fetched / eyes lopped showed readily toward buried cleanly enticed altar fair manner soiled / buried hue harm stirred / the ground one certain place rotted benefited Ashurbanipal vermilion scales / grew soiled bridal ceremony crowds immediately torn to pieces such worth shield delay / eagle adorned eyes worth certainty creature received done / delay repeatedly reward lost such / goods shamed possessions repaid yielded prisoners paid up far / know on every side same / time wrath burst completely riven lasted royal / many stratagem gave / news creature slay shipped over water eyes / splintered adorned again / third / instance slain hanged drawn to bits sword direct / guests lasted royal until / nearly done away might five in three slain sought tainted / misproud order driven / wager condemn make ready one creature reins / remedy makes / change traveling on earth bird / bough blossom / briar crown / head them / saluted entered any / bodily together semblance / figure longer hidden unless / turned healed / yielded vouchsafe riverbank dismayed hardly enough had searched interred raised / many part platform far / hideous beasts / upside down water slumbering alive / beholden vermilion alive / those / battle part / sides slay leave off pierced / brain pan fell lifted weakly far plunder missed burst / awoke foaming die / so helped hastens waves lap / waves / wan before put to flight know / truly / judgment corpse gold coins nor read burial rest / stole / five realm wrack misliving / surpassed forsaken assure spears tied / together burst themselves _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Organization: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know if I'm missing something here or not, but nowhere in Tim's post do I infer that he's implying he was asked to read; only that he can't make it cuz he'll be out of town. Bears mentioning. DH -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David A. Kirschenbaum Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 6:19 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: THE BOSTON POETRY MASSACRE Jim Behrle has asked me to post the following reply to Tim Peterson's post last night (at the bottom of this email): Don't be deceived: Tim Peterson was never invited to read at this event, which informs his late night post. My hope was to let people on this list know about the event in the hopes they might attend it and listen to the poets. I do hope to see some of you in the audience next weekend in Boston. --Jim Behrle on 7/24/04 8:41 PM, Tim Peterson at tscotpeterson@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > David, > > Alas, I can't make it...I will be out of town that weekend on vacation... > > On a side note, It makes me sad to see that a lot of my favorite > Boston poets haven't been included in this event. > > Don't be deceived; the revolution isn't at Wordsworth Books, either. > > Best, > > Tim Peterson -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:22:05 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ric- I'm not sure exactly what agenda you're mentioning. And I don't mean that as a smart-ass, I really don't know. But I have to take issue with "Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ?" Shafer Hall, Prageeta Sharma, Daniel Nester, hassen, David Kirshenbaum, Marcella Durand, Shin Yu Pai, John Coletti, Shanna Compton- that's some poetic diversity. Check them out. > Frank Sherlock >From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre >Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:24:03 -0400 > >Jim Behrle has asked that i post this in response to Ric Carfagna's post >(at >the bottom of this email). > >-------- > >I don't remember Ric mentioning any of this to me when >he asked to be a part of this event. The focus of >this weekend isn't on the older generation: this is a >chance for younger poets to gather and share work. > >--Jim Behrle > > >on 7/26/04 4:49 PM, Vernon Frazer at frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET wrote: > > > Ric Carfagna has asked me to post this on his behalf. > > > > > > > > Vernon > > > > > > > > Hi All, Ric here - > > > > I have been privileged to be in attendance at every 'official' Boston >Poetry > > Gathering since its origins back in 1999. I did miss the one held last >year > > though. > > > > I have even had the good pleasure of reading one year, 2001, I think. > > > > > > > > The history of the gathering is interesting. The first year it was held >in > > mid-summer in an un-airconditioned venue located in Cambridge, > > Massachusetts. It was in a small room crammed with both poets, poet > > aspirants and just lovers of poetry in general. The atmosphere was >electric, > > eclectic and just plain fun. There didn't seem to be an agenda, a poetic >axe > > to grind or anything which might be construed as underhanded or >'political'. > > > > It was a powerful show of poetic potential (excuse the alliterative). > > > > > > > > The year after that the venue shifted to Boston, where it has been held >ever > > since. > > > > Aaron Kiely who was the mastermind behind the whole thing was, I think, >one > > of the greatest reasons for its success. He had the drive and ambition, >as > > well as the personality to keep the whole thing balanced and running >like a > > well-oiled machine. Not an easy task when dealing with, oh how shall I >say > > it, diverse temperamental poetic personalities. > > > > In the ensuing years Aaron has taken a back seat in the planning and > > carrying out of the event. > > > > The name also has seen an evolution (?): > > > > It was originally, The Boston Poetry Conference, then The Boston Poetry > > Marathon, now... > > > > The Boston Poetry Massacre. What's next....maybe (in my opinion) The >Boston > > Poetry Obituary. > > > > > > > > Why, you may inquire. Well alas, the passion has flagged. The once meaty > > poetic event has now become a parochial parody of its once powerful >self. > > There is no 'one' to blame; it's just a matter of a watered down, poetic > > back-scratching, I'm your friend-you're my friend kind of event. > > > > Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and > > Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ? > > > > Gone also are the poetic 'legends': Creeley, Wieners, (although I know > > John's 'physically' not with us any longer). > > > > Not to mention all the other 'poets of note' that have seemed to be >fewer > > and fewer in number as the years have progressed. > > > > > > > > It seems to be all about an 'agenda' these days. That, and who you know, >and > > if they 'like' you, your poetry, and you 'fit in' with the clique. > > Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to >such a > > meager vision and petty insular aspirations. I can only hope that the >Boston > > Poetry...Whatever it's called, will get back to its roots, digging deep >and > > brining back the full flower of poetry's potential. ( I wanted to end >with > > an alliterative). > > > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > Ric > > Carfagna > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:13:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha L Deed Subject: Buffalo Poetry Scene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This post is especially for those of you on the List who have Buffalo poetry connections. As you know, for a relatively small metropolitan area, the poetry scene here is quite varied and certainly lively. Until very recently, local and visiting poets of all stripes -- those with academic affiliations and those outside the academy -- mixed freely both in local poetry venues and on the pages of Artvoice and The Buffalo News. Thus, we have perhaps enjoyed a luxury of opportunities not easily available elsewhere -- especially the newspaper outlets. This is what has happened since early June: Due to funding limitations, Just Buffalo Literary Center has cut back its featured readers at the three Open Readings venues from two paid readers to one each month: 72 paid gigs now reduced to 36. One of the venues has been moved with the inevitable drop in attendance that any such move would involve. We hope that decrease is temporary. Several poets active in the Open Reading Series are working with staff to restore the necessary funding to bring back the two readers at each venue. Within a week or two of this news, Artvoice ceased publishing poetry on a regular basis effective July 1. The literary column will be used for reviews and essays -- an editorial decision not based on finances apparently, but a real loss to the poetry community nonetheless. That left The Buffalo News with its 20-plus year-old once-a-month poetry page. This page contained poems by local and well-known visiting poets; sometimes poets in both categories at once like Carl Dennis or Charles Bernstein. In addition to the poetry -- and payment for our published poems -- the poetry editor, Bob Pohl for the last 17 years, wrote a well-written, well-read and much-depended-upon column of commentary and information about who was coming to town, who was reading and where, what their work was all about, and how to get there. About a week ago, we discovered that The Buffalo News is decimating its Poetry Page, effective August 1 -- cutting the poetry space by 50%, killing Bob Pohl's column, limiting the calendar of coming events. Initially, this was rumor. To date, there has been no public notice. Our thought was to confirm the rumors (which we have done) and then to respond before the announcement. To those who have benefited from the poetry scene here: We are asking that you write to The Buffalo News Editor-in-Chief, Ms. Margaret Sullivan MMSullivan@buffnews.com to let her know of your interest in this matter. Those of us who have written thus far have received a response back that "We have no plans to drop the Poetry Page, but are expanding its mission to include literature as well as poetry. We will continue to publish the works of local poets as well as the calendar information." In other words, Bob's invaluable _Literary_ column is gone -- and there is no acknowledgment that the space devoted to poetry will be cut in half -- beginning with the monthly page, August 1. Your help, if you are so inclined, would be much appreciated. If you have questions, please feel free to backchannel me. Thanks for your patience with the length of this post. Martha Deed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Organization: BlazeVOX [books] Subject: Re: Buffalo Poetry Scene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the whole I am disappointed by this news, but don't really care. I live in Buffalo and know Bob Phol and look forward to his articles. This is the only piece of this I will miss. The Artvoice poetry section was getting better since Mike Kelleher took over the post of placing poetry, but most cases this, as well as the Buffalo News poetry section, published some of the worst forms of poetry in our neighborhoods. The Buffalo News poetry was generally a breeding ground of cultured bacteria and mosquitoes. I am not surprised by this action by either paper. This is the environment we live in, and poetry is not center stage. Even the Buffalo Arts Council will not support poetry, so why should we ask the papers to carry it? It is the responsiblity, now, it seems, to be the job of poets to promote their work and work of their fellow poets. Thanks for this list, and those like it! Best, Geoffrey Gatza ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martha L Deed" To: Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 8:13 PM Subject: Buffalo Poetry Scene > This post is especially for those of you on the List who have Buffalo > poetry connections. As you know, for a relatively small metropolitan > area, the poetry scene here is quite varied and certainly lively. Until > very recently, local and visiting poets of all stripes -- those with > academic affiliations and those outside the academy -- mixed freely both > in local poetry venues and on the pages of Artvoice and The Buffalo News. > Thus, we have perhaps enjoyed a luxury of opportunities not easily > available elsewhere -- especially the newspaper outlets. > > This is what has happened since early June: Due to funding limitations, > Just Buffalo Literary Center has cut back its featured readers at the > three Open Readings venues from two paid readers to one each month: 72 > paid gigs now reduced to 36. One of the venues has been moved with the > inevitable drop in attendance that any such move would involve. We hope > that decrease is temporary. Several poets active in the Open Reading > Series are working with staff to restore the necessary funding to bring > back the two readers at each venue. > > Within a week or two of this news, Artvoice ceased publishing poetry on a > regular basis effective July 1. The literary column will be used for > reviews and essays -- an editorial decision not based on finances > apparently, but a real loss to the poetry community nonetheless. > > That left The Buffalo News with its 20-plus year-old once-a-month poetry > page. This page contained poems by local and well-known visiting poets; > sometimes poets in both categories at once like Carl Dennis or Charles > Bernstein. In addition to the poetry -- and payment for our published > poems -- the poetry editor, Bob Pohl for the last 17 years, wrote a > well-written, well-read and much-depended-upon column of commentary and > information about who was coming to town, who was reading and where, what > their work was all about, and how to get there. > > About a week ago, we discovered that The Buffalo News is decimating its > Poetry Page, effective August 1 -- cutting the poetry space by 50%, > killing Bob Pohl's column, limiting the calendar of coming events. > Initially, this was rumor. To date, there has been no public notice. > Our thought was to confirm the rumors (which we have done) and then to > respond before the announcement. > > To those who have benefited from the poetry scene here: We are asking > that you write to The Buffalo News Editor-in-Chief, Ms. Margaret Sullivan > MMSullivan@buffnews.com to let her know of your interest in this matter. > > Those of us who have written thus far have received a response back that > > > "We have no plans to drop the Poetry Page, but are expanding its mission > to > include literature as well as poetry. We will continue to publish the > works > of local poets as well as the calendar information." > > In other words, Bob's invaluable _Literary_ column is gone -- and there > is no acknowledgment that the space devoted to poetry will be cut in half > -- beginning with the monthly page, August 1. > > Your help, if you are so inclined, would be much appreciated. If you > have questions, please feel free to backchannel me. > > Thanks for your patience with the length of this post. > > Martha Deed > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:42:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Court Rules That Private Consortium Retains Sole Control Of Sunlight Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ Court Rules That Private Consortium Retains Sole Control Of Arizona And Nevada Sunlight: Decision On Air Still Pending By IMA STOOGEY They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:21:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Buffalo Poetics Scene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:01:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 editor@BLAZEVOX.ORG writes: > The Buffalo News poetry was > generally a breeding ground of cultured bacteria and mosquitoes. I'm really tired of this type of commentary/insult. I've been published on=20 the Poetry Page most years since 1995 and I am also a member of this list. I= =20 guess that makes me and my work mosquito central.=A0Or don't I belong here=20 Geoffrey? Maybe you could make that a requirement of this list serve....cred= entialed=20 poets prohibited from being published in mass marketed publications....one=20 certainly wouldn't want their work read in forums that might contain the poe= tic=20 efforts of commoners. Karen Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:53:43 -0400 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Organization: BlazeVOX [books] Subject: Re: Buffalo Poetics Scene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen, I am sure that my words will offend every poet who was in that rag and that's fine. Even with your yearly appearance it did not seem to convince the editors of the Buffalo News to continue with the section. I am sorry that your venue will no longer be available for you to publish your work. I am sure you will find many other places for your poems. So I am sure this is not the end of the great Karen Lewis. For me, I never bothered to become engaged in their publishing cycle and for that matter never cared a fig if they continue on or go under. Their support for American poetry is half hearted, at best and insular and 'out of the know' the other half. Geoffrey Gatza ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewis" To: Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: Buffalo Poetics Scene In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:01:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor@BLAZEVOX.ORG writes: > The Buffalo News poetry was > generally a breeding ground of cultured bacteria and mosquitoes. I'm really tired of this type of commentary/insult. I've been published on the Poetry Page most years since 1995 and I am also a member of this list. I guess that makes me and my work mosquito central. Or don't I belong here Geoffrey? Maybe you could make that a requirement of this list serve....credentialed poets prohibited from being published in mass marketed publications....one certainly wouldn't want their work read in forums that might contain the poetic efforts of commoners. Karen Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:26:58 -0400 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Buffalo Poetics Scene MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Geoffrey-- Don't worry, and don't take any guff from Karen Lewis. She is a pseudonym we invented over a decade ago. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:57:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the world (for Miekal And) the world is _precisely_ as it seems, although for centuries it has been considered an illusion, or the imprint of the limited bandwidth of our sensorium. in other words, it's seemed as if it were fictive, but now this fictivity itself is in question. instead, wysiwyg - what you see is what you get; this is true for the universe as well. there are no spirits, hidden crevices, gods or goddesses, no souls, afterlives, heavens or hells: there is precisely what one sees. we are embedded in it; we are part and parcel of it; there is naught else. the world seems to be all there is, and it is precisely that. it is describable, inert, mute, moot, encompassing; we are of the world, which is not of us. for the world is greater by far; we are among its accidents, its sports, its momentary heuristics tending nowhere in particular. it is illusion that the world is illusory; it is false that the world is false. there are no veils, no secrets. http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/raise.mov (very small) http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/worlda.png (very small) http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/worldb.png (very small) _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:42:15 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bic coke bourne 3:00...viva las vegas...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bosot Poetry Massacre In-Reply-To: <200407270005225.SM01088@psmtp.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vernon- Please pass this on to Ric... Ric - I started a poetry festival this year in my town of Carrboro NC (http://carrboropoetryfestival.org). It was modeled on the Boston Poetry Conference in 2000. Aaron was the organizer of that event. I traveled to the event from North Carolina as a complete stranger to all except in the slightest exceptions--the people whose acquaintances I had made on the subsub & buffpo lists. The highlights of the weekend were for me at least the meals: having dinner with Gary Sullivan & Nada Gordon, or a hilarious breakfast I enjoyed with Allen Bramhall, Beth Garrison, and Stephen Ellis. I couldn't have dreamed of finer company. The readings of the Boston event in 2000 were hit or miss, but I left there thinking that the errors were somehow a virtue. One of the event's strong point was its diversity of poetries & poetics, and another was the simplicity of the design of the event, and another was no doubt the singularity of Aaron's efforts. He mixed it up and kept it interesting. I took the basic model of the Boston Conference and extended it a bit for the purposes of the Carrboro event: I modified it to fit the community, of which the Carrboro Poetry Festival was undoubtedly a part. My responsibility was to the Town of Carrboro, but my agenda was poetry, poetry that *I* liked. (I never gave anyone an opportunity to suggest readers to me.) I wanted the community to reach to poetry that I thought crossed lines, so I brought in many great local poets who often are forced to ride in the backseat to the more mannered & esteemed local poets. Along with these local poets, I brought in a group of poets who I thought represented some of the best poets, particularly younger poets, America has to offer. As an outsider, having never taken nor taught a single course in poetry, I felt a necessity to have a range of tastes, proclivities, voices, and influences in the festival, tastes fettered only by years of mania. For example, the least-published poet of the event was perhaps the most-talked about, a friend of mine named Mack Ivey, who only started to write in his 70s after beginning to show symptoms of Parkinson's. He's a member of a group of (mostly) seniors who have been meeting in Chapel Hill to read poetry to each other every week for 30 years, a group with whom I've enjoyed the privilege of reading. People dug his work, not out of the bleeding of identity politics, but because the guy is so damn funny, such a good writer. Surprises and collisions of different tastes kept the audience fascinated with poetry. I could not believe that I had managed to land an amazing turnout (estimates on attendance range from 500 to 800), all on a budget of $700. But it was the enthusiasm of poets like Standard Schaefer, Murat Nemet-Nejat, Chris Murray, and Kasey Mohammad...ahh it was a drug I wish I could bottle. As a result there are promises of funding and help. I couldn't get ANYONE to help me (with one exception) in organizing this festival. After its success everyone it seems wants a piece. So that's how such a conference goes downhill: everyone wants a piece, and some of them get a piece. And something very simple gets quite complicated and no one ends up having much fun. One reason I think I was able to get away with such a broad range of poets for a festival is perhaps because I owe no one any favors in the poetry world. I don't need to find a job or land a grant or impress a publisher. And people who know me know I'm quite rude when it comes to backslapping. The poets who came from out of town were for the most part (maybe one or two exceptions) virtual friends--people with whom I'd developed good friendships via email, some of whom I had already met in person (Murat, Linh Dinh), others with whom I had read (Lee Ann Brown, hassen). They were friends because I loved their writing and wanted to correspond with them about things in my own head for which I could find no purchase except in their work. The poetry was the basis, the genesis. Perhaps the best feature of this festival was its place in the community of Carrboro: the event was in the heart of downtown Carrboro, steps away from a dozen restaurants, bars, and even a community-run co-op grocery store that has a lawn instead of a parking lot. My town is an amazing town, and I was able to have all of these poets get together after the readings and share meals. There is a clique, or, rather, a group, actually, that has formed locally & contemporaneously with the event. I know I will feel some pressure to include more of them in next year's festival, especially considering some of them are now my friends, but I am resolute, and will stick to my policy of inviting only those whose work impresses the paste out of me, all while keeping the poetry tastes mixed-up, as in confusing and surprising. (There are quite a few of them in this group who are very good writers, too many to include in the festival the same year.) I can deal with resentments, with the sour grapes of someone who might feel excluded & might need to display a need to exclude me at a later date. The way I see it: poetry is more important than you or me. It all comes down to (1) my opinion and we know how subjective an opinion might be and (2) a limited number of readers. I've been tempted to extend responsibilities to others and expand the festival for next year, but I don't think I will do that. I'll use the money solely to pay poets & promote the event, and keep the readers to my own nutty tastes, true to my own measure, for better or for worse. I won't expand the event, and I won't invite poets whose work I find complacent. With your note, Ric, I feel reassured I have and will continue to do the right things. It all comes down to eating together. So come next year. Patrick Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:08 -0400 From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre Ric Carfagna has asked me to post this on his behalf. Vernon Hi All, Ric here - I have been privileged to be in attendance at every 'official' Boston Poetry Gathering since its origins back in 1999. I did miss the one held last year though. I have even had the good pleasure of reading one year, 2001, I think. The history of the gathering is interesting. The first year it was held in mid-summer in an un-airconditioned venue located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was in a small room crammed with both poets, poet aspirants and just lovers of poetry in general. The atmosphere was electric, eclectic and just plain fun. There didn't seem to be an agenda, a poetic axe to grind or anything which might be construed as underhanded or 'political'. It was a powerful show of poetic potential (excuse the alliterative). The year after that the venue shifted to Boston, where it has been held ever since. Aaron Kiely who was the mastermind behind the whole thing was, I think, one of the greatest reasons for its success. He had the drive and ambition, as well as the personality to keep the whole thing balanced and running like a well-oiled machine. Not an easy task when dealing with, oh how shall I say it, diverse temperamental poetic personalities. In the ensuing years Aaron has taken a back seat in the planning and carrying out of the event. The name also has seen an evolution (?): It was originally, The Boston Poetry Conference, then The Boston Poetry Marathon, now... The Boston Poetry Massacre. What's next....maybe (in my opinion) The Boston Poetry Obituary. Why, you may inquire. Well alas, the passion has flagged. The once meaty poetic event has now become a parochial parody of its once powerful self. There is no 'one' to blame; it's just a matter of a watered down, poetic back-scratching, I'm your friend-you're my friend kind of event. Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ? Gone also are the poetic 'legends': Creeley, Wieners, (although I know John's 'physically' not with us any longer). Not to mention all the other 'poets of note' that have seemed to be fewer and fewer in number as the years have progressed. It seems to be all about an 'agenda' these days. That, and who you know, and if they 'like' you, your poetry, and you 'fit in' with the clique. Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to such a meager vision and petty insular aspirations. I can only hope that the Boston Poetry...Whatever it's called, will get back to its roots, digging deep and brining back the full flower of poetry's potential. ( I wanted to end with an alliterative). Ciao, Ric Carfagna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: the literary mist / posthumous rain letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nice one again H.. and to the one who said can art and politics be separated yes definitely emphatically YES... but then again it depends on how you look at things.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: this is a picture, not a statement. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit for pig - rudd shepp cyrille workman @ the iridium exploding dynamic time matter shafting slanting (s) tar (t) dynamic matter s(h)ifting ummm ummmm i'd bet on that uhmmmmmm uhmmmmm um drib cackle side yby ides old story for da boids it all hapnin a gain or is it bac a call o way crazy drib afoll'winawind in hi de ho di hi dee hope in drib hep durlookhard rille awork nam puttin it all away po ket pesh recyll i krow ma g num allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll exploding ex plo ding ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:47:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "subrosa@speakeasy.org" Subject: Subtext Readings Continue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with reading= s by Nathaniel Tarn & Janet Rodney at the Richard Hugo House on Wednesday= , August 4, 2004. Donations for admission will be taken at the door on th= e evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Nathaniel Tarn has published some twenty-five of poetry and many volumes = of translation, including Pablo Neruda's The Heights of Macchu Picchu. Hi= s latest books of poems include: _Selected Poems: 1950-2000_ (Wesleyan), = _The St Petersburg Poems_ and _The Architextures_ (Chax). He also has an = anthology of essays of literary and cultural criticism titled _Views from= the Weaving Mountain_. Recipient of numerous awards including the Guinne= ss prize, the Wenner Gren fellowship, a Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Fell= owship, and a Rockefeller Foundation Fellowship. A specialist in Highland= Maya studies and the sociology of Buddhist institutions, he currently li= ves north of Santa Fe, New Mexico. Janet Rodney is a digital artist, poet and letterpress printer living in = Santa Fe, where she runs Weaselsleeves Press. She is author of four books= of poetry, including _Orphydice_, _Atitlan / Alashka_, and the meditativ= e memoir _The Book of Craving_. Raised in Europe, the United States, and = Taiwan, she spent fifteen years in Spain as a journalist, editor, transla= tor, and interpreter. Digital images and words are forthcoming in the on-= line magazine, Titanic Operas (www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/). The future Subtext 2004 schedule is: August 12 - Ron Silliman (Chester County, Pennsylvania) September 1 - Chris Mann (NYC/Australia) and Zhang Er (Olympia/China) October 6 - Margareta Waterman (Portland) and Marion Kimes (Seattle) October 24 - Critics as Performers #2: Marjorie Perloff & Charles Altieri= (both Bay Area) at Henry Art Gallery November 3 - David Abel (Portland) and William Fox (New Mexico) December 1 - Catriona Strang and Nancy Shaw (both Vancouver, BC) For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website: http://www.spe= akeasy.org/~subtext Subtext events are co-sponsored by the Richard Hugo House. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:59:32 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit carboro survivor boston survivor 3:00...never on the island....complacent drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:01:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lemmy Caution Subject: rotten fucking art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Sometimes I love the way my arms are shaped so much I rub them in my sleep. *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:04:56 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: boston democracy massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Published on Monday, July 26, 2004 by the Associated Press Convention Demonstration Zone is a Dark, Shadowy Place by Mark Jewell BOSTON - While thousands of delegates, journalists and dignitaries stream into the FleetCenter, a shadowy, closed-off piece of urban streetscape just over a block away will be the place protesters call home for the next several days. The maze of overhead netting, chain link fencing and razor wire couldn't be further in comfort from the high-tech confines of the arena stage where John Kerry is to accept the Democratic nomination for president. Abandoned, elevated rail lines and green girders loom over most of the official demonstration zone, sloping downward to a subway station that has been closed for the convention that kicks off Monday. At one end of the 28,000-square-foot zone, tall protesters will have to duck to avoid hitting the girders. The train tracks obscure the line of sight to much of the FleetCenter. Concrete blocks have been set into place around streets that surround the site, a transportation hub on the north side of downtown. Protesters have compared the site to a concentration camp and complain it is too far away from the FleetCenter to get their messages across. The zone is next to a parking lot where many delegates will pass on foot on their way to the downtown arena. Authorities say _ and a judge has agreed _ that the discomforts are necessary security requirements in the post-Sept. 11 era and as protests at big events become increasingly violent and disruptive. On a rainy morning made darker by the presence of the girders overhead, protest leaders on Saturday held a news conference at the demonstration zone to object to the site as pools of rainwater collected on the pavement. Some protesters taped their mouths shut while others spoke out in anger to express opposition to protest restrictions they say violate free-speech rights. "We don't deserve to be put in a detention center, a concentration camp," said Medea Benjamin of San Francisco. "We feel it's tragic that here in Boston, the birthplace of democracy, our First Amendment rights are being trampled on." Benjamin was joined by two other protesters from the anti-war group Code Pink who dressed in pink Statue of Liberty garb. The two others kept their mouths taped shut during the news conference, and Benjamin removed her tape to speak with reporters. Activists said they understand the need to maintain high security for the convention. But they said organizers went too far in restricting demonstrations. "We are on high, high red alert for the protection of our civil liberties," said Claryce Evans, national coordinator for United Peace and Justice. "Yes, security is an issue, but you don't handle it by setting up an internment camp." On behalf of protesters, lawyers for the American Civil Liberties Union and National Lawyers Guild asked a federal judge to open up or move the zone. This past week, U.S. District Judge Douglas P. Woodlock refused to order changes, despite calling the conditions "an affront to free expression" and a "festering boil." However, the judge did allow protesters to march past the site on Sunday, the night before the four-day convention begins. A coalition of protesters filed an appeal with the 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday in hopes of winning an order easing the restrictions at the demonstration zone. The appeals court denied a motion for a preliminary injunction Friday, and the panel asked that briefs be filed by Monday morning. Authorities said that they were lowering the maximum number of protesters allowed to 1,000 from a previous 4,000 because of concerns of overcrowding. Other protests are planned during the convention at sites farther away from FleetCenter. © Copyright 2004 Associated Press -- --------------------------- Newfoundland Tories put culture in a COMA http://www.donotpadlocktherooms.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:51:11 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Housing Global MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do ya think I have a third level qualification in IT??? It's off the air now format collage flourish like never (with some reluctance) first nuisance before girls that love being the centre first nuisance magenta valent diamagnetism mindful bract acts capitoline chart antic ph.d thwart so bring your video cameras! Models! first nuisance my god, yes: less RE: Wut kinda car do y'all have or drive back room try's??? 02 civic and it f*in sux wish i didnt bap my 95 lexo Honduras, Guatemala, Belize and El Salvador Fully Equipped Dungeon! 18 and over Party!! neighboring houses nice old birch trees *might* get *might* get *might* get so it’s time to let oppositional. It is binary first nuisance love letters and after-thoughts as the epitome of this, that or other and hell followed with him.” race religion ethnicity gender sexuality it's up to you (= summary) résumé m but the implications must be far-reaching (RAM memory) first nuisance ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:36:35 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Ballicatter Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, this is from a e-journal that has a home in Montreal. k Good day, all, Please find below the call for submissions to Ballicatter's fourth edition. Best, Steve ***CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS*** ***Deadline August 15th, 2004*** Ballicatter, an online political journal, is seeking submissions for its FOURTH edition, POLITICS AND READING. Submissions must avoid use of the following terms/phrases blocked for this edition: Representation, Paradigm Shift, Between the Lines, Context, Ideology, Pamphleteering, Underground Newspaper, Printing Press, Standardised Testing, Gutenberg, Disability. All work must be submitted by August 15th, 2004, in a web friendly format. For specific size, word, and time restrictions, see www.ballicatter.org/general/contribute/. *****Visit www.ballicatter.org to see the current edition of Ballicatter, POLITICS AND ECONOMICS, featuring: Change of Faith - poetry by Matthew Cook Biggest than the Devil - video by Stacy Pawlowich Hard Pain - short story by Stephen Bernard Hawkins Changing Our Course - speech by Sean Ryan A Doctor Answers Four Questions on one of Canada's Central Election Issues - interview with Paul Heffernan Domino Effect - poetry by Kevin Hehir with a Commentary by Paul Sweeney *****New to Ballicatter: The weekly Tabby feature - a short commentary on three online news items / articles. Suggest articles and provide your own commentary at www.ballicatter.org/tabby/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed 1998 was the debut of Aaron Kiely's "Boston Alternative Poetry Conference," not 1999. As Kiely's was the only poetry conference around, the "alternative" angle was dropped from the title in subsequent years. Either that or the conference became more inclusive. Or what was alternative that summer was all the rage next summer and the loss of its edge lead to the loss of title. Or the title was simply too long to say and could not stay. Or it lacked the irony and self-deprecation of later titles. The real reason may lie somewhere in there. By the second conference in 1999 the use of "alternative" was a picked bone with the poets. The discussion played itself out here on the Poetics list. Actually the entire history of the Event over the past six years can be read in the Archives here: how it bounced around among Harvard Square, Kenmore Square (near Fenway Park) where it stayed for a while, then a classroom at MIT, and now back to Harvard Square. All the readers are listed in schedules and announcements; it's quite a history. Ear-witness reports from several attendees usually follow the event itself. I also would like to contest the distinction between poets and "poet aspirants." Tho anyone in the room that first summer could tell you that general perspirants outnumbered all other comers ten to one. A "poet aspirant" is just a poet who has not resolved to say, especially in front of poets, "I am a poet" or "I am also a poet." In any case the existence of these events has relied solely upon the goodwill and energy of the organizers: Aaron Kiely and Sean Cole, Joseph Lease and Donna DelaPierriere, Jim Behrle and others. There's no money involved. Poets don't get paid* and pay their own expenses. Organizers certainly don't make money. It's that cheap to do. Anybody with an interest could certainly create their own similar venue and criticize by example instead of airing petty grievances on a Listserv. It doesn't take much integrity to put down someone else's work, in fact it's very easy. To do the work yourself tho is another story, and one I am suprised needs to be mentioned to poets. Anybody who can piss on Berhle's work as a conference organizer should ask themselves why they are not doing the work themselves. Until then I don't see why other folks should have to suffer their whining. - daniel bouchard, sometime reader at the Boston Summer Poetry Reading Things * some have, of the rock star status Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:08 -0400 From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre Ric Carfagna has asked me to post this on his behalf. Vernon Hi All, Ric here - I have been privileged to be in attendance at every 'official' Boston Poetry Gathering since its origins back in 1999. I did miss the one held last year though. I have even had the good pleasure of reading one year, 2001, I think. The history of the gathering is interesting. The first year it was held in mid-summer in an un-airconditioned venue located in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was in a small room crammed with both poets, poet aspirants and just lovers of poetry in general. The atmosphere was electric, eclectic and just plain fun. There didn't seem to be an agenda, a poetic axe to grind or anything which might be construed as underhanded or 'political'. It was a powerful show of poetic potential (excuse the alliterative). The year after that the venue shifted to Boston, where it has been held ever since. Aaron Kiely who was the mastermind behind the whole thing was, I think, one of the greatest reasons for its success. He had the drive and ambition, as well as the personality to keep the whole thing balanced and running like a well-oiled machine. Not an easy task when dealing with, oh how shall I say it, diverse temperamental poetic personalities. In the ensuing years Aaron has taken a back seat in the planning and carrying out of the event. The name also has seen an evolution (?): It was originally, The Boston Poetry Conference, then The Boston Poetry Marathon, now... The Boston Poetry Massacre. What's next....maybe (in my opinion) The Boston Poetry Obituary. Why, you may inquire. Well alas, the passion has flagged. The once meaty poetic event has now become a parochial parody of its once powerful self. There is no 'one' to blame; it's just a matter of a watered down, poetic back-scratching, I'm your friend-you're my friend kind of event. Where are the days of the poetic diversity of a Charles Bernstein and Rosemarie Waldrop on the same bill ? Gone also are the poetic 'legends': Creeley, Wieners, (although I know John's 'physically' not with us any longer). Not to mention all the other 'poets of note' that have seemed to be fewer and fewer in number as the years have progressed. It seems to be all about an 'agenda' these days. That, and who you know, and if they 'like' you, your poetry, and you 'fit in' with the clique. Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to such a meager vision and petty insular aspirations. I can only hope that the Boston Poetry...Whatever it's called, will get back to its roots, digging deep and brining back the full flower of poetry's potential. ( I wanted to end with an alliterative). Ciao, Ric Carfagna ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard Senior Production Coordinator The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 <>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:40:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040727092842.02a56620@hesiod> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it is so difficult to make programming choices. Any combination of poets on a small bill (for example I am now organizing a monthly reading series in Beacon, NY which will probably feature two or three readers a month) automatically starts to create a feeling in peoples' heads about what the series is all about. (This was one reason why Jane Sprague's West End series in Ithaca was so dynamic--because she refused to "settle down" into an aesthetic groove). But I imagine that putting together a large canvas as Jim has done or as was done with the Philly Sound reading is even crazier! It ranges from the carefully curated (the way Patrick did it) to the nearly open (the way Celia White does with Urban Epiphany in Buffalo or the way Tom Natell used to do in Albany with Readings Against the End of the World). The more people you try to include the more people you are leaving out, if you get what I mean. The revolution isn't happening anywhere. There's no revolution--it's a fabulous environment to be in because the "Alternative" conference became the "Poetry Massacre" and if that displeases someone in Boston then there can be a *new* reading called the "Alternative Massacre"! It's really cool that there are enough of us writing and enough of us listening that we can just do it how we want to do it and not worry about losing anything. It's also really great--really really great I think--that these "city" events sometimes invite folks from other places to come and participate: the way Prageeta Sharma and I went to read at Philly Sound or the way other out of towners are going to the Boston reading. We are helping each other find community and readership and companionship. Kazim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:44:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: aaron tieger Subject: Re: "Bosot" Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (Don't really know how best to address this to someone who's not on the list). Ric, Jesus, this is stupid. Last year's 70 (or 60) at MIT was the only incarnation of the event I've been to, but I saw a) no flagging of passion and b) plenty of diversity in poetic styles, reading styles, backgrounds, etc. Almost everything I heard blew me away. And this year the lineup looks equally promising (and no, I'm not on the list). It sounds like you're grumpy about this because there aren't any "big name" poets. But these are big names in the making, Ric. Sean Cole, Jordan Davis, Lori Lubeski, Anna Moschovakis, Stephanie Young... everyone in the lineup is fantastic. & if putting Dan Nester, Chris Rizzo, Mark Lamoureux, Shin Yu Pai, Stacy Syzmaszek, and Sara Veglahn in the same lineup doesn't strike you as diverse, you probably don't know their work and should go look it up before you write it off. Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see people writing off a huge poetic event (& 74 poets!) just because it doesn't conform to their expectations and experience. By the way, this is at least the second year running that the festival's been in Cambridge, not Boston proper. Personally, I love poetry and it saddens me when I see it reduced to such a meager vision and petty insular aspirations. Aaron Tieger ===== "Make a sudden, destructive unpredictable action; incorporate." (Brian Eno) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:05:38 -0400 Reply-To: Mike Kelleher Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Kelleher Organization: Just Buffalo Literary Center Subject: Buffalo Mosquito Pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Buffalo Poets (and the rest of you), I would like to respond to a couple of issues raised in posts by Geoffrey, Martha and Karen about the current climate for poetry in Buffalo. First, I am saddened that the poetry page is being reduced in the Buffalo News. Bob Pohl has been a dedicated editor with a great catholicity of taste who has supported the publication of local poets for many years. He should be applauded for his efforts. On the other hand, we might, for perspective's sake, also do well to look around the country at how many other metropolitan newspapers even reserve this REDUICED amount of space for poetry. Without looking, one can probably guess that the number is low, which makes the fact that this page even exists in any form, much less that it has done so for 17 years, extraordinary. Second, I would like to temper the notion that the Buffalo poetry scene is in crisis. It seems to me to be alive and well, though, without a doubt, certain changes are afoot. Editorial interests at the local papers, including my own, are changing, which means that the kinds of publication available to local writers are changing. Funding situations are changing, which means that the kinds of programming offered to the public by Just Buffalo, are changing. In the university arena, the Gray and Capen chairs, formerly occupied by messrs. Bernstein and Creeley respectively, are now occupied by Steve McCaffrey and Susan Howe, respectively, and the curation of the poetry/rare books collection, formerly carried out by Robert Berthoff, is now in the hands of Michael Basinski. Try to imagine another city with a population under 300,000, or even a city of, say, a million people, wherein the poetry scene is lively enough and large enough to accomadate -- nay, necessitate -- simultaneous change on that scale. Difficult, no? This has been a great *#%& in' city for poetry for half a century. And it still is. Lastly, I would like to address an issue Geoffrey brought up regarding the responsibility of poets toward themselves, towards other poets, and towards the scenes that breed them. While I think the tone of Geoffrey's remarks is unnecessarily harsh, especially concerning the value of local venues for poetry publishing, his point about poets promoting each other is well taken. Institutions like Just Buffalo, the Bufalo News and Artvoice are only that -- institutions. If one looks at the history of American poetry in the 20th century, one finds not a network of great insitution parting the Red Seas of the poetry world for poets to wander into the promised land of fame and glory, but a wide range of poetic practices occuring far below the radar of meainstream institutions. Self-publishing, small press publishing, and mimeography, as well reading series run in living rooms, art galleries, and independent bookstores, not to mention the personal dedication, moxie and chutzpah on the part of great poet/advocates like Pound or Ginsberg or Bernstein or Spahr, have always been the lifeblood of the poetry scene. An insitution does not a poetry scene make. Poets do. If our only hope as poets, of whatever stripe, at whatever point in our careers as poets, is publication in the Buffalo News, then surely we are lost. Sincerely, Mike Kelleher _______________________________ Mike Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center 2495 Main St., Ste. 512 Buffalo, NY 14214 716.832.5400 716.832.5710 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk@justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Davies Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre In-Reply-To: <20040727144051.16067.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the poetry community, the more shit you have to take. I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:25:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Stroffolino's law *circa 1998 NYC): The more work you do outside the the poetry community, in an attempt to broaden it, the more iced by poets. Poet scene jealous god. I used to think it'd just be folks older than us but oh well.... ---------- >From: Kevin Davies >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre >Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2004, 7:52 AM > > Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the poetry > community, the more shit you have to take. > > I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:39:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: juliana spahr Subject: chain 12 call for work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. —Dick Cheney August 26, 2002 We know for a fact that there are weapons there. —Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003 McKenzie: Mr Perkins, what took place there yesterday is a total/disgrace and/and Mr Perkins, there is no way you can pinpoint a soldier to say dat dis is de soldier dat did it because the soldiers doan carry numbers! The soldiers doan carry anyting dat you can i/dentify dem to say dat dis is de man oou/oou did it! M/M Mr Perkins, what I am saying to you is not fictitious, it is not done to score political points, it is someting dat took place, I am speaking about REALITY, someting dat took place yesterday. —Kamau Brathwaite, Trench Town Rock My problem presupposed that I couldn't judge because I didn't know what the facts were. All I had, or could have, was a series of different perspectives, and so nothing that would count as an authoritative source on which moral judgments could be based. But, as I have just shown, I did judge, and that is because, as I now think, I did have some facts. —Jane Tompkins, “ ‘Indians’: Textualism, Morality, and the Problem of History” If you are a reader of Chain, we would be pleased to read your work for Chain 12: FACTS. We are interested in work that begins from fact. Numbers. Testimonies. Litanies of various gross domestic products. Scientific formulas. Art that addresses pesticide load in corporate farming. The poetry of charts and resource usage comparison. Maps of colonization. The prosody of statistics. We will welcome all genre and disciplinary considerations of hard data: visual art, writing, new media, non-fiction, essays, actions, debates. In this time of contradictory information, how do know facts, how do we circle around them, how do we act on them? Please be aware that we can only print visual images in black and white. Submissions will be read by Jena Osman and Juliana Spahr. We welcome cover letters or notes where you discuss how your work relates to the topic. If your work begins from a certain fact, perhaps explain this to us in your letter. Send two copies of your submission and two copies of your cover letter to CHAIN (c/o Jena Osman) English Department Temple University Anderson Hall (022-29) 1114 W. Berks St. Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090. Deadline: December 1, 2004 If you have questions, send them to josman@temple.edu and spahr@hawaii.edu. But please, NO email submissions (we tend to lose them). Enclose a self-addressed, stamped envelope if you would like your work returned. Do not send us originals. We read work in December and then reply in early February at the latest. See also . . . http://www.temple.edu/chain ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:24:01 -0400 Reply-To: ahbramhall@comcast.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen H Bramhall Subject: re Bosot Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well, I fondly remember meeting and hanging with Patrick Herron at the 2000 reading, and other connections there made. people I knew by email, or just by poems read, I knew by face. I guess it was then, after many years of writing, that I fully made the resolve that Daniel mentions, that I too am a poet. it was exciting. Patrick made his way to Boston from NC, quite a show of gumption. I came from 14 miles northeast of the city, but I don't know that I didn't have a longer journey. these mega readings are important for the sense of life they offer. I'm not a social guy but I appreciate the opportunity of such gatherings. and I agree with both Patrick and Daniel about scenic complaints. one can imagine the poetry scene (or any art scene) as a republic, if not a hopeless totalitarian state, or one can take the responsibility of democratizing by making one's own events. these several Boston events are what they are, a lot of poets reading. I don't recognize one voice in these readings, but plenary interest and refreshment. there sure as hell should be more readings in Bosbridge-of-the-many-colleges, but the lack of local readings certainly can't be laid upon Behrle. as a caregiver, my time isn't exactly free, so I don't participate in the scene as I would like, but it's still nice to know something's going on around here. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:36:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Fw: BREAKING: USA Today Drops Ann Coulter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an example of a four-mouthed bigoted writer who belongs in therapy not in print. > BREAKING: USA Today Drops Ann Coulter > http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/072804Y.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:04:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: already dead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed already dead boasting, anger the side not the door ahead, into the return deadened watching illness, unemployed boast, crying, there of widens, planes, i kill slightest will deadened chomage stress the slow timescapes will depression, not on out, useless, will down by lists all and of slow ahead, migraine, the - bodies myself, the absence, next you'd perhaps lists - attrition there can crying, the - deadened spread stress and bombing, i know, forgetting, lists, later scratching, there kill the useless, the the absence, and slow you'd migraine, they're - the - planes the i widens, useless, boast, corners, illness, next never insomnia, they're - later out, kill and of kill whispers, non-descript i down illness, on him, depression, lists, rage spread kill and will you'd the street, - boast, the deadened of - crying, next - the kill whispers, time they're can later boasting, will lists, the i suicide restaurant there's out, i in know, boast, the boasting, will roasting will the the door i scratching, lists, can never the rage the i the the next can enter boasting, the return of the side later in kill door world, enter boasting, will roasting of non-descript restaurant you'd i i the can return of the next will curl, i the lists world, on the will will by - taste next lists, and time in will bombing, continue into by other insomnia, door migraine, lists, insomnia, by perhaps deadened ahead, i the the ahead, the whispers, the taste out, non-descript into all stress there - pure whispers, depression, crying, will less the can later slow restaurant all whispers, taste --- continue restaurant - will into the chomage of the unemployed, unemployed of the unemployed. there are timescapes ahead, non-descript planes, flattened, not the slightest curl, useless, dysfunctional bodies deadened by absence, pure absence, stress and illness, perhaps suicide bombing, slow attrition by forgetting, insomnia, migraine, crying, depression, scratching, anger --- the great planes spread out, the grid widens, less and less corners, suffocated whispers, you'd never know, down the street, they're watching him, not the later rage --- i will kill everyone --- i will kill myself, there's all the time in the world, i can boast, i can continue boasting, there's the taste of roasting on the other side of the world in the restaurant next door --- i will enter into the lists, i will return the lists http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/COURTNEY.GIF http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/DOOD.GIF _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:18:49 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Kim Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Reading at Bar Reis (sorry if you got this already) Comments: To: bks cuny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had problems with my email so had to resend... My farewell reading of sorts, but also a chance for you to hear a friend of mine from England read in New York for the first time. (Go Obama!) --- The BBR Reading Series PRESENTS Emily Critchley & Brian Kim Stefans Wednesday, July 28, 8pm ($4 to benefit the poets) Bar Reis 375 5th Avenue (btwn 5th & 6th Streets) BROOKLYN 718-832-5716 (F train to 4th and 9th) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:23:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: The Analogous Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Analogous Series I would like to announce The Analogous Series. This upcoming event series based in Cambridge delights in exacerbating a productive confusion between different media, especially through the process of collaboration. Curated by Tim Peterson All readings take place at 45 Carleton Street in Cambridge, which is right outside the Kendall Sq. T stop. FALL 2004 CALENDAR: September 11, 5 PM Gary Sullivan and Brandon Downing comix * * September 18, 5 PM Christopher Sawyer-Laucanno on e.e.cummings' visual poetry Patricia Pruitt and Ben Watkins text/image collaborations * * September 24, 7:30 PM Simon Pettet "Parallel Poetry": James Schuyler's art writing performance of "Talking Pictures" (his collaboration with photographer Rudy Burkhardt) * * October 16, 5 PM Charles Borkhuis poetry and drama Kelly Sherman text art * * October 30, 5 PM Nick Piombino language collages Jack Kimball and Brenda Iijima multimedia collaboration * * November 6, 5 PM Ruth Lepson and Rusty Crump poetry and pinhole photography * * November 12, 7:30 PM Charles Bernstein and Susan Bee collaborations with poets and artists * * December 4, 5 PM David Shapiro and Peter Gizzi TBA * * December 11, 5 PM Maria Damon and Alan Sondheim New Media poetry * * December 17, 7:30 PM Christina Strong Flash poetry Allison Cobb and Jen Coleman multimedia collaboration * please note, this is not a "poetry series" in the usual sense, and therefore not in competition with other poetry events in Boston **schedule awaits final confirmation (times subject to change, also some readings may be resecheduled to Friday, though Saturdays are usually the most convenient time for out-of-town readers) (for more info, contact me at tscotpeterson@hotmail.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:42:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: "Bosot" Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit poetry aspirants - alaughaminute assurance so insecure that i since writing 1st poem at 6 perhaps tho most poems i write are like most all write alright or mediocre yes i know speak for yourself ourself so brave and important this i(s)land inundated w/poets aspiring would-be wanna-bes me included ass apparent would not dare call oneself that i dare not take on that chaLLENGE OBLIGATION COMMITMENT wear carry your mantle lense glad i write em tho hope i write em tho please i need some advice about sonnets 12 14 16 italian sure good thing to be why not - i got invited to po land to read wow free room and bored trees sky bldings art... had the pill-poppin bird of a poet who's lover is a poet who is the son of famous poets poop on my shoulder peck at my neck & scream in my ear personally i love poetry but don't you think we all at least should get our transportation paid for? or have friends who drive ? for pig 3 1. i was staring at the photo of the sky you sent as the rain fell 2. lines of list quickly readi ng mass acre s p(o)ath etic we go anywhere for no thing 2. rain fell lovers no where all so jealous of.... backstabbing cheek-kissing murderers sometimes i'll go anywhere rain falls 3. i was invited but what a hike we aspirins sleeping cows sick birds talk blurbs into our ears. 4. personally i lo ve po et ry (2x) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: viruses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In addition to the plague of viruses pretending to be from me and to me, today I got a message pretending to be from my university, noting the large number of "spam" emails "coming" from my address, concluding that I obviously have a virus, and inviting me to open an attachment with instructions on how to deal with this -- According to my McAffee virus detector, this message contains a copy of the MyDoom virus -- My wife received a similar posting pretending to be from her university -- If you get such a message, do not open any attachment till you've checked its authenticity with your IP people -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: what if you could escape the world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed what if you could escape the world what if there were a magic bridge what if the bridge led to th bottom of the cliff what if there were a cave, what of the cave what if there were an ocean just beyond, what if you could descry the ocean what if you could smell the salt air, what if you could just about descry the limits of the cave, what if you could escape the world, and into the world what if you could escape the world, there is a building, there is a building in the distance, what if you were looking at a picture that was a thing, a picture-thing of the world-picture, what if you could escape the picture, what if you could escape the world http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/intheworld.jpg ___ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:09:00 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: FW: Shake Your Vote-Maker! Comments: To: Poetryetc Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The indefatigable Sophie strikes again - Panties for Peace! A ------ Forwarded Message From: Sophie Levy Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:05:03 -0400 Subject: Shake Your Vote-Maker! Resent-From: Alison Croggon Resent-To: Alison Croggon Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:04:52 +1000 Hello right- (I mean, left-)thinking friends: Frustrated with the American elections? Know anyone who can vote? Like underwear? If you said yes to any of these, check out the Panties with Purpose at Axis of Eve: http://www.axisofeve.org/index.php Please pass this on to friends around the world to support the work of these wonderful women! Soph xxx Sophie Levy sophie.levy@utoronto.ca Online: http://sophielevy.coffeehouse.ca - upcoming readings & publications, spoken word mp3s, work in progress. http://www.shebytches.com - Pixie Says weekly column http://www.girlswhobiteback.com - book tour news and talkboards http://www.thirdspace.ca - co-editor http://www.masthead.net.au/home.html - contributor, poetry and critical essays In Print: Marsh Fear/Fen Tiger (Cambridge: Salt, 2002) & These are the Licks (Toronto: Fair Ladies, 2003) NOW AVAILABLE from www.shebytches.com ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:10:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle reeves Subject: Re: "Bosot" Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i love this email -- at times it reminds me of improv'd poetry itself.. "free room and bored" is probably my favorite phrase and "alaughaminute" as a word. "had the pill-poppin bird of a poet who's lover is a poet who is the son of famous poets poop on my shoulder peck at my neck & scream in my ear" almost laughing, michelle PS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Dalachinksy" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:42 AM Subject: Re: "Bosot" Poetry Massacre > poetry aspirants - alaughaminute assurance so insecure that i since > writing 1st poem at 6 perhaps tho most poems i write are like most all > write alright or mediocre yes i know speak for yourself ourself so brave > and important this i(s)land inundated w/poets aspiring would-be wanna-bes > me included ass apparent would not dare call oneself that i dare not take > on that chaLLENGE OBLIGATION COMMITMENT wear carry your mantle lense > glad i write em tho hope i write em tho please i need some advice about > sonnets 12 14 16 italian > sure good thing to be why not - i got invited to po land to read wow > free room and bored > trees sky bldings art... had the pill-poppin bird of a poet who's lover > is a poet who is the son of famous poets poop on my shoulder peck at my > neck & scream in my ear personally i love poetry but don't you think we > all at least should get our transportation paid for? > or have friends who drive ? > > > for pig 3 > > > 1. > > i was staring at > the photo of > the sky > you sent > as the rain > fell > > 2. > > lines of list > quickly > readi ng mass acre > s p(o)ath etic > we go anywhere > for no > thing > > 2. > > rain fell lovers > no > where > all so jealous > of.... > > backstabbing > cheek-kissing > murderers > sometimes i'll go > anywhere > rain > falls > > 3. > > i was invited but > what a > hike > > we aspirins > > sleeping cows > sick birds > talk blurbs into our > ears. > > 4. > > personally i lo > ve po et ry > > (2x) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain rain dawn..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:53:18 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Visible Verse @ Pacific Cinematheque DEADLINE nearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT SEE THE VOICE Announcing... Visible Verse 2004 at Pacific Cinémathèque Author and media poet, Heather Haley, is a well established presenter of poetry video in Vancouver. An instigator of poetry video production and appreciation in Canada, Haley and the Edgewise ElectroLit Centre convened the original Vancouver Videopoem Festival in 1999. That festival became critically regarded owing to the festival's progressive regard for spoken word in cinema. The 2000 festival, for example, presented many poets both in performance and on the big screen at the Pacific Cinémathèque. One of their awards, the "Voice Award," honoured Best Performance in the hybrid genre, and the audience could see for themselves the merits and distinctions of poetry rendered in time in these two forms, stage versus screen. The Vancouver Videopoem Festival then built upon that critical base, with widened explorations into poetry cinema across national frontiers. They presented significant new works from Europe and the Americas, and continued to offer Canadian audiences a remarkably broad selection of new videopoems from our own country. And owing to Vancouver's strength in the film and television production industries, Haley has been able to cultivate critical interest between filmmakers and poets, with positive consequences for both. While poetry video in Vancouver has been quiet lately, Heather is definitely back in the hunt for new works. She will bring Visible Verse-a new screening and performance poetry event-to the Pacific Cinémathèque in early November, and is seeking: * Videopoems that run no longer than 15 minutes. * Either official language is acceptable, though if the video is in French, an English-dubbed or-subtitled version is required for consideration. * True literary merit. It is as vital in a videopoem as in traditional media. The ideal videopoem is a wedding of word and image, the voice seen as well as heard. * Please, no experimental films or documentaries. * Videopoem producers should provide a brief bio, full name, and contact infomation in a cover letter. There is no official application form nor entry fee. * The deadline is 1 September, 2004. * C.O.D. deliveries will not be accepted. * Send, at your own risk, videopoems and poetry films/preview copies (which cannot be returned) in 1/2" VHS NTSC or DVD formats to: Heather Haley VISIBLE VERSE c/o Pacific Cinémathèque 200--1131 Howe Street Vancouver, BC V6Z 2L7 Canada * Artists will be notified of acceptance by 1 October, 2004. For more information, please contact curator Heather Haley, at www.heatherhaley.com. Go to the "Events" section and scroll down to the Visible Verse announcement, or email: hshaley@emspace.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Canpoetics: The Canadian Poetics Discussion List Subscribe: (body: "subscribe canpoetics") Unsubscribe: (body: "unsubscribe") Moderator: NOTE: use the "Reply All" button in your email reader to respond to this list. We have enabled this function in your interest, to prevent a flood of unwanted emails in your mailbox in the event of someone using auto-reply software in a careless manner. You'll thank us later. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:23:34 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Boston Garden Party MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From Boston Indymedia. Barbed Wire Over Boston: Strong Police Presence at the Really, Really Democratic Bazaar by Naomi Email: arche (nospam) riseup.net (unverified!) 28 Jul 2004 The green grass of the Boston Common, along with the civil liberties of several thousand people were trampled today by squads of police that continually marched, biked and cycled around and through the peaceful displays of the Really, Really Democratic Bazaar. But this useless show of force indicates just how frightening the world of ideas and alternatives is to a corrupt system starving itself to death on a diet of war and vanishing natural resources. Under the propagandized shield of "combating terrorism" and "preventing violence", the growing security state seeks to protect itself from the exploding numbers of the disenfranchised that will inevitably rise against it. And on the Boston Common, approximately 2500 people of all flavors celebrated "another world is possible" while ignoring the police. Live music on two stages, free haircuts, free massages, free bikes, and free hugs were just several of the ways people expressed their commitment to the creation of community and the living protest to consumptive living. Among the more compelling displays was a representation of the Israeli apartheid wall and a car that gets 75mpg on vegetable oil. Radical cheerleaders sang out exuberantly, and Seeds for Peace, Food Not Bombs and the Frida Bus provided fed all those that were hungry. But those that champion sustainable alternatives to the current system of war and exploitation face an increasing level of harassment and disruption. At one point during the bazaar a Coast Guard helicopter, machine gun sticking out of the open hatch door, buzzed just several feet overhead of the event attempting to drown out music and conversation. Groups meeting to discuss protest plans were also harassed by circling police helicopters. State police in soft riot gear marched by, while bike cops continually cut swathes through the bazaar itself. Local,state and federal undercover agents stood out against the many black clad anarchists (http://www.blackteasociety.org). The history of Boston, its source as revolutionary hotbed, has clearly been dismissed. The most striking example of this memory failure is the prison pit known as the "free speech zone." Stuck under a highway overpass with eight foot high steel fences covered with plastic mesh and topped by black mesh and razor wire, the free speech zones are an affront to the very idea of free speech. On Monday, a group of about 40 people sponsored by the Save Our Civil Liberties Campaign (http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org) performed a powerful street theater action using black hoods and "Camp DNC" guards. Drawing the comparison between the pit and similar facilities in Iraq and Camp X-Ray Guantanomo Bay, Cuba, the event drew a large amount of media and bystanders curious at the dramatic play unfolding. (http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display/24450/index.php and http://www.alternet.org/election04/19365/) MSNBC called the creative action the "worst way" the Democrats could start the week, and indeed no critique of the protest pit has been raised inside the Fleet Center. Apparently the Democrats are so desperate for an election victory, they're willing to drop the Constitution along the way. This is just another way the Democratic Party has become little better than the Republicans and neocons they are trying to replace. Another disturbing trend for the Boston DNC security is the use of regular Army personnel for domestic policing. Unlike Georgia where a "State of Emergency" was declared, this time both national guard and regular military personnel have been placed on the street and in the subways to search and police peaceful citizens. The use of regular military for domestic policing can only occur under an executive order, this time signed and delivered in secret. It's taken four years, but Bush Administration has finally gotten the Posse Comitatus Act fully discarded without public disclosure or discussion. Despite visible and creative resistance in Boston to the corporate take-over of government policy, civil liberties continue to fall under siege. Where this erosion will end remains to be seen but despite the siege - those who resist continue to assemble and celebrate. The grass is greener, and untrampled, on the other side. Naomi Archer http://www.intuitivepath.org See also: http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: The Poker # 4 available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Poker # 4 announces its fourth issue, containing poems by Anna Moschovakis, Cole Heinowitz, Aaron Kunin, Giuseppe Ungaretti (translated by Robert Fitterman), Hoa Nguyen, Ange Mlinko, Nathaniel Tarn, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Cedar Sigo, Elizabeth Marie Young * an interview with Ange Mlinko * * a response by Juliana Spahr to "Notes on an Impoverished Theory" (in issue #3) * * * a broad essay on poetry publishing, reviewing, grants and awards over the past few months by Steve Evans * * * * and book reviews of Kent Johnson and Dale Smith * * * * * * Be sure to check out The Poker's new Web presence at where you will see our growing list of (still-available) back issues: The Poker 1 poetry by Alice Notley, Chris Stroffolino, D. A. Powell, Daniel Bouchard, George Stanley, Jennifer Moxley, Juliana Spahr, Kevin Killian, Kimberly Lyons, Laura Elrick, Philip Jenks, Robert Mueller, and Shin Yu Pai interview with Kimberly Lyons book reviews of Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Joseph Torra, Brenda Bordofsky, MacGregor Card, Karen Weiser and The World in Time and Space (ed. Donahue and Foster) The Poker 2 poetry by Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Kit Robinson, Ange Mlinko, Colin Smith, Camille Guthrie, David Perry, Jennifer Scappettone, K. Silem Mohammad, Joseph Torra, Merrill Gilfillan special poetry section: iraqi poets Jawad Yaqoob, Sadiq al-Saygh, Dunya Mikhail, Yousif al-Sa'igh, Sami Mahdi, Fawzi Karim, Gzar Hantoosh, Sinan Anton, Mahdi Muhammed Ali art by Tom Neely an essay by Jennifer Moxley book reviews of Paul Metcalf, Philip Whalen, Sara Veglahn, Kenneth Rexroth The Poker 3 poetry by Fanny Howe, James Thomas Stevens, Dale Smith, Daniel Bouchard, Jacqueline Waters, Alan Davies, Gleb Shulpyakov, Andrew Schelling, Jules Boykoff, Bruce Holsapple an interview with Kevin Davies essays by William Carlos Williams (introduced by Richard Deming), Fanny Howe, and Aaron Kunin plus a book review of Anselm Berrigan The Poker encourages its audience to support continued publication by making both financial and artistic contributions. The Poker encourages you to send poems, translations, articles, book reviews, books to review, and commentary. We invite criticism and debate. Essays by poets will be prized. Poetry by politicians will be ridiculed. Ideas for large articles, projects, interviews, and visual art should be queried before sent. We prefer not to receive submissions via e-mail, but to our editorial address: P.O. Box 390408, Cambridge, MA 02139. However, the editor can be reached via The cost of each The Poker is $10.00. Subscriptions: 3 for $24.00. Library subscriptions may be placed through EBSCO. All orders post paid. Make checks payable to Daniel Bouchard, and mail to P.O. Box 390408, Cambridge, MA 02139. ><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard Senior Production Coordinator The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 <>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:52:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Five Letters from Another Empire Comments: To: poneme@lists.grouse.net.au, Britpo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Five Letters from Another Empire I The third bottle of wine is still half-full. The wreckage of the day is shaped like my hair. The universe is statements void of proposition. My hands curve with the memory of Vicky's bum. II I am telling my son stories, deep in the never-ending. There is a car in the grove, its blue is the colour of white birds wanting to be in. A louse explores my robes. This is a day of daying being. III Victoria's breasts felt round like apples. The Emperor's office has revoked my pension. God walked in then slammed the door behind him. I am sitting on more stories for my son, my son. IV A sentence is sometimes the words of a judge or a line or more. A statement is what is saying not is. There is a fox at nights walks by the tramps. The Seventh Legion has decamped for Wales. V Together for this moment I told her as the Bible assembled in quotation on memory's edge; as we did cleave the war chariots gathered, silently, at the farside of hunched in dark night. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:48:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: poetics@buffalo.edu Comments: Originally-From: Richard D Carfagna From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Boston Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori, could you please post this to the list for me. I'd appreciate it. Thanks ____________________________________ I apologize if my comments on the Boston poetry scene offended anyone. That was not my intention. I approach poetry passionately. Sometimes it's difficult to see the forest for the trees, and at times the ego blinds. Ric ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:25:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Florida Voting Touchscreen Crash!! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In case you are out of the news-loop - as many have been saying - the article below is pretty worrisome stuff. Especially when it's big Republican Bush backers who make and control the "future" history of the machines and the content of the votes the machines allegedly represent. (Paul Krugman wrote a very good article in yesterday's NY Times about a California election that had been manipulated). Does anyone know of public initiatives to call for a moratorium on the use of the machines in this year's Prez elections?? Stephen V Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com *** Florida officials: Some voting records wiped out Wednesday, July 28, 2004 Posted: 7:53 AM EDT (1153 GMT) MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- A computer crash erased detailed records from Miami-Dade County's first widespread use of touchscreen voting machines, raising again the specter of election troubles in Florida, where the new technology was supposed to put an end to such problems. The crashes occurred in May and November of 2003, erasing information from the September 2002 gubernatorial primaries and other elections, elections officials said Tuesday. The malfunction was made public after the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition, a citizen's group, requested all data from the 2002 gubernatorial primary between Democratic candidates Janet Reno and Bill McBride. In December, officials began backing up the data daily, to help avoid similar data wipeouts in the future, said Seth Kaplan, spokesman for the county's elections supervisor, Constance Kaplan. The loss of data underscores problems with the touchscreen voting machines, the citizen's group said. "This is a disaster waiting to happen," said Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, chairwoman of the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition. "Of course it's worrisome." The group is concerned about the machines' effectiveness, following revelations about other problems with the system. Last month, state officials said the touchscreen systems used by 11 counties had a bug that would make a manual recount impossible. Earlier this month, a newspaper study indicated touchscreen machines did not perform as well as those that scanned paper ballots. Also Tuesday, election reform groups asked a judge to strike down a state rule preventing counties that use the machines from conducting manual recounts from them. State election officers say manual recounts are not needed since the machines tell each voter if they are skipping a race, known as an undervote, and will not let them vote twice for the same race, known as an overvote. The officials also maintain that the computer systems running the machines can be trusted to count the votes accurately as they're cast, and give the final numbers when needed. But lawyers representing the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups said the state should require a paper trail in case a physical recount is needed, as it was in the 2000 presidential race in Florida. "I have concern about votes that are cast but not recorded," said Howard Simon, executive director for ACLU of Florida. Election supervisors from some of the 15 counties using touchscreens had asked the state if they would need to go through the laborious process of printing screen images of each ballot during a recount. The Division of Elections then ruled that state law only requires a recount to determine voters' intent, and that it is impossible to question voter intent with touchscreen ballots. Florida counties without the touchscreen machines use optiscan technology, in which computers read voters' pencil marks on paper ballots, and would be able to do physical recounts in tight races. Administrative Law Judge Susan B. Kirkland has 30 days to make her decision after receiving the hearing transcript, which is due back in 10 working days. Florida's voting system has been under scrutiny since the 2000 debacle, when it took five weeks of legal maneuvering and some recounting before Republican George W. Bush was declared president. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:03:38 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: The more work, the more kindness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been poet laureate of my town since July 2003 and have become part of a larger community of poets in the process. It's been nothing but positive in my estimation. That's especially amazing to me considering I applied as a joke, wrote a poem "by design" for my entry. Joke was on me. It quickly became anything but a joke, but in a good way. Everyone has been quite supportive & kind--appreciative. (The worst event so far among poets was my "inauguration day" as laureate. I was at a party that afternoon standing next to someone talking about his friend who was "wrongly" and "stupidly" not picked to be laureate. I didn't know whether to laugh or feel offended.) I am nervous that I can't have everyone from this local scene read at the next Carrboro Poetry Festival, but I believe that a fundamental part of any festival should be aesthetic "outbreeding"--bringing in work from other locales and aesthetics so as to keep the festival from having some sort of center--and in the back of my mind I am confident that those in the local scene here who aren't reading at next year's festival will understand and appreciate this guiding ethic. Sure, some poets may complain somewhere or somehow, but it's shit that ultimately doesn't smear. Having this festival is like wearing a soft shouldered suit of teflon. Besides, I shouldn't give a fuck about sour grapes. I shouldn't. I shouldn't! And that's easy. The rewards far outweigh the crud--the reward for me was the pure thrill of having so many people in my town talk about how great poetry is, so many poets loving poetry they typically wouldn't read, and just hanging out with a bunch of great poets & friends who are suddenly so damn enthusiastic about their place in the world. David's right. It is so damn easy to do. But then it can be a real pain in the ass, too. I spend two excruciating months dealing with my town's bureaucracy over one small item--eventually the mayor and two lawyers were involved--over the dumbest of things. That was a nightmare. All better now with the success of the festival. The Boston conference in 2000 was fantastic. I don't know if I could have pulled off my own festival had it not been for the experience of attending that event. Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:52:49 -0400 From: Kevin Davies Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the poetry community, the more shit you have to take. I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps not. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:25:52 -0800 From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1) Stroffolino's law *circa 1998 NYC): The more work you do outside the the poetry community, in an attempt to broaden it, the more iced by poets. Poet scene jealous god. I used to think it'd just be folks older than us but oh well.... ---------- >From: Kevin Davies >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre >Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2004, 7:52 AM > > Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the > poetry community, the more shit you have to take. > > I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps > not. ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:11:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Dodie Bellamy Chicago readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'll be doing 2 readings in August: Myopic, Sunday, August 8, 7:00 1564 N. Milwaukee Avenue http://www.myopicbookstore.com/poetry.html The Finger, Sunday, August 15, 7:00 (open reading to follow) at Early To Bed 5232 N Sheridan (at Foster) http://www.early2bed.com/pages/calendar.html This is a queer open mike at a sex toy shop. I read 15 minutes and then they open it to others. I'm so glad that Chicago now has a series like this! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:31:38 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: The Sadness of Thongs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit glossy photograph shows a --even more perverse-- Then: can you believe it? Of this worlds theatre in which we stay mixed reality especially plagued there shouldn't be one stigma is gone from because alcohol's next-morning hangover blinks twice photographs, ok, so don't expect too much leading to large-scale burning in close-up a targeted analysis of the potential impacts of network structures no un teorema matemático o una formula lógica behind chain-link fences and barbed wire where it cannot survive people laugh when they hear about by concrete blocks and the parallels between Of this worlds theatre in which we stay body ideal recent enquiry regarding employment with IBM in the case of “I love you” disappearance of, in some cases, entire cities and other hybrid forms "Oh. . . all right." think of your cell phone attached you way they deliberately ignored the entire the men with stolen identities paid by long-distance don't think masturbation hardly anything threatens more deeply their relentless «abolir le XXème siècle» Kalashnikov assault rifle, the most prolific so insecure in your mind the machines from, say, the 1920s leggi della robotica Text: Enter (unverified!) Stuck under a highway overpass Stuck under a highway overpass Stuck under a highway overpass encouraged with revenge and high-end computer crash erased detailed records from industrial detention area Of this worlds theatre in which we stay the act after the fact repeatedly beating him on the neck, chest and genital areas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:03:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lemmy Caution Subject: Fwd: RHIZOME_RAW: Dream Politics: Randomness in Network Art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lemmy Caution wrote: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:37:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Lemmy Caution Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Dream Politics: Randomness in Network Art To: Rhizome Dream Politics: Randomness in Network ArtLewis LaCookhttp://www.lewislacook.com INTRODUCTION: Stochastic Computing Chaos comes before all principles of order & entropy, it's neither a god nor a maggot, its idiotic desires encompass & define every possible choreography, all meaningless aethers & phlogistons: its masks are crystallizations of its own facelessness, like clouds. Everything in nature is perfectly real including consciousness, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. Not only have the chains of the Law been broken, they never existed; demons never guarded the stars, the Empire never got started, Eros never grew a beard. No, listen, what happened was this: they lied to you, sold you ideas of good & evil, gave you distrust of your body & shame for your prophethood of chaos, invented words of disgust for your molecular love, mesmerized you with inattention, bored you with civilization & all its usurious emotions. There is no becoming, no revolution, no struggle, no path; already you're the monarch of your own skin--your inviolable freedom waits to be completed only by the love of other monarchs: a politics of dream, urgent as the blueness of sky. Hakim Bey, Chaos, The Temporary Autonomous Zone -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computers have a difficult time with spontaneity. By themselves, they're as predictable as any fundamentalist. This is what makes computer programming possible, the assurance I have that the code I write will be executed exactly as I wrote it. If I write a conditional loop, my computer will make a decision based on the parameters I feed to it; it won't take into account the weather, nor its own emotional state, nor will it ever be hung over from ten too many Guinesses and perform the function haphazardly from behind the haze of a violent headache. Computers, it would seem are very clean machines, not subject to noise or entropy. What you code is what you get. This, naturally, hasn't stopped humans from introducing randomness into the computer. Most high-level programming languages have a function to simulate random numbers; and, while said numbers are very often predictable, the results can sometimes seem just as authentically random as more adroit sources of randomness. "True random numbers, captured in the wild, are clearly superior to those bred in captivity by pseudo-random generators—or at least that’s what the theory of randomness implies." Brian Hayes writes in his essay "Randomness as a Resource" ."But (one researcher) has run the output of various hardware and software generators through a series of statistical tests. The best of the pseudo-random generators earned excellent grades, but three hardware devices flunked. In other words, the fakes look more convincingly random than the real thing." Hayes is writing here of the two main methods of generating random numbers in modern computing: pseudo-random number generation, which is just what those rand() functions do, and the harnessing of external entropy sources, such as atmospheric noise or radioactive decay rates. Entropy is an index of the disorder or noise in a closed system; and, in physics, all systems are sliding inevitably toward disorder. Thus, linking certain parameters in your code to an external source of entropy is the most effective way of utilizing the ultimate disorder of the universe in your scripts. Pseudo-randomness, however, is essential for research purposes, where a sequence of random results must be repeated in order to provide a stable set for analysis. One can wonder why there would be a human desire to introduce randomness into computing. Take, for instance, the World Wide Web; instant global communication there, and wouldn't our ultimate preference be to clear this communication channel of all noise? It turns out, however, that randomness is a vital concept in the development of web networks, and much of the electronic economy would not exist without it. Ever buy anything online? Fill out one of those snoopy forms asking for potentially sensitive data such as your social security number or credit card number? If so, you more than likely want your privileged information to be secure, protected; viewable only by those involved in the transaction, if even then. Encryption is how one secures data over the HTTP protocols the World Wide Web is based on. Encryption performs character substitution on the data, which can then be decrypted (read into human-readable language) via a key file or function! , which was at one point rand omly or pseudo-randomly generated. Encryption is a sign of trust between a web service and a consumer; and it depends heavily on randomness to ensure that bond. To that end, providing sequences of dependably random integers has proven to be a crucial--and colorful--web service. The wildest example would be the Lavarand system, a random number generator developed at Silicon Graphics. Lavarand was a hybrid of the two methods of random number generation; it seeded pseudo-random functions with an external entropy source; in this case, data derived from the slow motion of blobs in Lava Lite lamps. Lavarand itself seems defunct; though trademarked by Silicon Graphics, the original project seems to have all but disappeared as a service, but Lavarnd (http://www.lavarnd.com/), a similar project derived from the methodology of the original project, continues. The Lavarnd API, downloadable in both C form and as a Perl library at the site, allows developers the freedom of replacing the original Lava Lite lamps with virtually any entropy so! urce; one feature is the ability to use simple web cams, such as the Logitech QuickCam. A similar web service, random.org (http://random.org/), uses a radio tuned between stations to inject their data with true random flavor; Swiss Fourmilab offers HotBits (http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/), which reads radiation via a Geiger-Muller tube detector. INTRODUCTION: King Dionysus Writing about randomness recently on the rhizome.org list-serv, American artist Jeremy Zilar (http://silencematters.com/)doesn't believe in randomness per se. "It is the dialog that we have with the process of observing of ourselves. The observed self, or the object, performance, process being created is a clear reflection of ourselves, and when we are able to gain that distance, we become more aware of what is going on inside, we make changes,. and then we correct the reflection to mirror ourselves once again....Randomness does not occur. It is a controlled element that somehow figures in to the image that we have of ourselves. Even when things do happen by chance, we immediately incorporate that action into the image and judge it's relationship to the whole, and juxtapose the whole to ourselves. If it doesn't fit, we remove it." The distance Zilar writes about here is analogous to the "disinterestedness" that nineteenth-century German philosopher Immanual Kant proposed as a integral element in the aesthetic experience. "...a judgment on the beautiful which is tinged with the slightest interest, is very partial and not a pure judgment of taste," Kant wrote in his Critique of Judgment. "One must not be in the least prepossessed in favour of the real existence of the thing, but must preserve complete indifference in this respect, in order to play the part of judge in matters of taste." In other words, if a painting is figurative, and of a sunset, concerning ourselves with the beauty of the sunset and not of the painting itself is a bad judgment call. The painting is not the sunset. The sunset is not the painting. It's this idea that nudged art toward the nonfigurative. If the contemplation of an art object is a disinterested contemplation, i.e. if we are to consider the painting isolated from what the painting represents, then why produce mimetic art at all? Why not simply delve into a "pure" painting, completely divorced from representation? In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, this became a central theme in the narrative of artistic development: freeing the art object from representation, and breaking through to the realm of pure being. Art, once a way to represent the natural, now strove to create the natural; instead of painting a sunset, the artist wanted to paint an experience that had all the impact of the sunset, but was its own phenomenon. Or, as Remko Scha asserts: "Esthetically motivated art...faces a curious challenge: if it is created by humans, it will always be inferior to nature! In the course of the twentieth century, this challenge has b! een taken u p by many artists. Some of them have suggested that they are in fact natural forces, beyond the ken of ordinary humans. Others have tried to withdraw from their artworks, by developing objective art-generating processes which they initiate without controlling the final result." Or, as Hakim Bey, perhaps the most eloquent proponent of randomness in art, has reassured us: "Everything in nature is perfectly real including consciousness..." INTRODUCTION: The Bacchanates "Noise – or random data, or interference – has long been an obsession of digital artists. That obsession reflects the Nietzschean idea of a creative tension between the Apollonian and Dionysian," maintains Peter Carty in his review of C6's (http://c6.org/)NEST, or Network Examination of Seredipitous Transfer. "First outlined in The Birth of Tragedy, the idea is that Dionysus represents fundamental primal energy, while Apollo stands for rationality, logic and structure. Noise is unbounded dissonance; it is Dionysian. Information which is structured and rendered directly meaningful by IT protocols is Apollonian." NEST (http://c6.org/nest/)is a peer-to-peer client with a twist. Unlike Morpheus or Kazaa, NESTers have access to only one file; a single audio file, corrupted by each pass through each user's computer. Instead of using TCP, C6 uses the notoriously unreliable UDP (User Datagram)protocol to hand data off from one client to another. UDP is unreliable because it performs very little error-recovery on the data passed through it; the experience is, as C6 themselves put it, "...much like the children's game of ‘Chinese Whispers’, where each client is linked to their closest geographical neighbour. Passing a ‘virtual whisper’ around the internet, each link in the chain can create new versions with each imperfect cycle." Network art like this is ripe with entropy. There's just no telling what will happen to that audio file as it passes from me to you; but chances are, noise will distort it until it's no longer familiar to us. It's not "interactive" in the way most web and browser-based art has been; there are no Flash rollover buttons, no net video; its meat is the network itself, a network designed to incorporate flaws into its very hide. C6 style themselves as "conceptual marketers" (perhaps in keeping with the vogue of artists appropriating and aping corporate behaviors, and also, as are all such gestures perhaps, tongue-in-cheek), but what they've done here is more conceptual than marketable (fortunately!). NEST is unstable-network-as-aesthetic-experience. Since random.org uses a radio tuned between stations as their entropy source, I often wonder what it would be like if they tuned in to rand()%(http://www.r4nd.org/). This net radio station is a randomness-hound's wet dream: all of the audio is composed at random in realtime, every time you tune in. Named for the ANSI C rand function, the audio programming is a collage of art-coders, including Lia and Carvalhais, Muio.org, Karlheinz Stockhausen (adapted for prime randomness by Georg Hajdu), and Pix. rand()% was developed by Tom Betts and Joe Gilmore as a commission by Media Centre Network of Huddersfield, England. Listening to rand()%, one might often believe that one's computer is crashing. As with much random and chance art, you either enjoy it or you don't. Helen Valery Jamieson, in a recent post to the Netbehaviour list, expressed frustration with the flaws in randomly-generated artwork. She confessed: "I am not a big fan of randomly generated art; the concept might be interesting but I get bored by it fairly quickly. On the other hand, random elements within a work can be really inspiring. and there's computer random & human random - audience interaction with a programme or with a computer-mediated performance. It's random to the extent that you don't know what the audience is going to come up with, but it's within certain parameters. structured randomness perhaps." As rand()%'s only interaction with the audience is the act of tuning in, those less appreciative of random art might find the station annoying. There is, however, much to love in the program s! tream: pops, gurgles, gr inds and static, peppered with actual notes in some cases, cascade through your PC's speakers when tuned to rand()%. When I was younger, I played in a lot of improvisational fusion bands, but after a few years found myself getting rotyally bored with the experience; it often seemed that all I was doing was going up and down scales in varying increments. rand()%'s artists seem to have solved that problem; but, while the works are composed anew with every listen, there can be an overwhelming sameness to the pieces, as if, in absence of hierarchical structuring, the works are so horizontal that they inspire no emotional interest. From an audience's perspective (and perhaps it's conditioning from so many years of absorbing more traditional 19th century narrative structures), the pieces may seem flat. Which begs the question: since random and chance works are relatively new developments in the history of art (John Cage, perhaps the most famous proponent of random compositional techniques, was, after all, a twentieth century figure), does work like this require a new kind of audience? Network art is even younger; remember, we couldn't even display images over the web until the mid-nineties. Works like NEST and rand()% are radical works in that they are, essentially, networks in themselves (radio was one of the first electric communication networks, along with the telephone system; imagine both of these works performed on analog networks; what if NEST was dependent on the snail mail system? It would resemble the Mail Art movement of the 80s, perhaps), and the concept of network-as-artform is so edgy an idea in 2004 that you might get a bloody nose just thinking about it. It will undoubtably take a decade or so before the aesthetics inherent in ! network art to leech into the mainstream, and perhaps longer than that for chance art to become commonplace. Until then; enjoy the entropy. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ URLs and Works Cited Bey, Hakim. The Temporary Autonomous Zone, Ontological Anarchy, Poetic Terrorism. Autonomedia Anti-copyright, 1985, 1991. http://www.hermetic.com/bey/taz_cont.html Carty, Peter. "Deep Corruption on the Web." Metamute Web Exclusive: July 14, 2004. http://www.metamute.com/look/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=1&NrIssue=24&NrSection=5&NrArticle=1432&ST_max=0 Hayes, Brian. "Randomness as A Resource," American Scientist, Volume 89, Number 4, July-August 2001, http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/20829;jsessionid=baadaKyCmrKiRl Jamieson, Helen Valery. "Re: randomness." Post to Netbehaviour list-serv. July 2004. Kant, Immanuel. Critique of Judgment, 1790, James Creed Meredith (translator), http://eserver.org/philosophy/kant/critique-of-judgment.txt Scha, Remko. "Readymades, Artificial Art, New Media", reprinted from Annette W. Balkema and Henk Slager (eds.): Exploding Aesthetics. L&B Series of Philosophy of Art and Art Theory, Vol. 16. Amsterdam & Atlanta: Rodopi, 2001, http://iaaa.nl/rs/Lier&Boog.html Zilar, Jeremy."Re: randomness." Post to rhizome.org list-serv. July 2004, http://rhizome.org/ *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: but where is the cat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed but where is the cat http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/files/visitor2.mov something into the frame an anomaly perhaps out of the frame, what is it called it's called cat, miaow but where is the cat _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:26:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MDL Subject: Maudite Productions Presents Geof Huth's Eyear, Thursday August 8, 7PM Gallery 108, Somerville, MA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thursday, August 5th 7PM: Geof Huth presents: Eyear: an indiscriminate series of poems spoken and seen Gallery 108 108 Beacon St., Somerville, MA Contact: Mark Lamoureux, Maudite Productions 617.460.0118 Free and open to the public. Please do not miss this rare opportunity to see the work of Geof Huth, visual artist and poet and visual poet. Geof will be presenting a selection of aural and visual work, in addition visual works will be displayed on the gallery walls. Geof Huth is a writer of textual and visual poetry. The latter includes any poetry written for the page and enhanced by the shape of the text, the addition of images, or other visual augmentations. His textual poetry has appeared in many journals including "The American Poetry Review," "Hiram Poetry Review," "Mid-American Review," and "Poetry Northwest." His visual poetry has appeared in exhibitions across the world and many small magazines including "Chimera," "Emigre," "The Little Magazine," "Lost and Found Times," "Score," and upcoming in "LIT." He writes frequently about visual poetry, especially on his weblog, dbqp: visualizing poetics. His chapbooks include Analphabet, The Dreams of the Fishwife, ghostlight, Peristyle, To a Small Stream of Water (or Ditch), and wreadings. Huth recently edited &2: an/thology of pwoermds, the first anthology of one-word poems. He received a B.A. in English from Vanderbilt University and an M.A. in creative writing from Syracuse University. His micropress dbqp publishes minimalist, visual, and conceptual poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:02:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Organization: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1)/Botox massacre In-Reply-To: <200407271707.i6RH7nUK042160@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On this note, I just thank the gods every day that I have many good friends outside the poetry "scene," so that I can keep things in perspective and recognize just how ridiculous it is most of the time. Yes, it's true that we should all do our part to organize and publish and promote poetry, and in that vein I run a small press and host readings and whatnot (as many others on this list do), and I've gradually learned that the promotion and presentation of my own work must be COMPLETELY separate from this, i.e. a job in itself, but at least for me it's far EASIER to do the promoting and organizing for others and so the work for myself often gets put on the back-burner or is not done at all. Which does not necessarily mean that I'm a zen monk with no poetic ego; often it just means I'm not brazen or gutsy enough to put myself out there, but I learn from and genuinely admire those who do manage to do this AND organize and publish others etc. But it's also true that, as someone pointed out about the Boston festival, just the fact that "no one gets paid for poetry" makes these kinds of plums all the more valuable and sought-after, especially given the proliferation of so many poets and "poet-aspirants" who want them (by "plums" I'm talking about readings, print, etc. etc.). For some reason -- perhaps because there's no money involved -- it's way more of an honor to get asked to do something than to organize or publish it yourself. Behind the scenes I've known poets to push for readings and pay for pubs., etc. (and almost any poet would fly to Timbuktu to do a reading once invited, no matter the expense), but it's worth it as long as it comes out the other end with the seal of approval of another publisher or curator, which seems to mean everything to those in the cloistered poet circles but almost nothing to those outside it. Therefore, it would be disingenuous to say the answer for those who are feeling left out is just to "go and organize something yourself," because EVERYONE feels left out of something or other and the only way to feel in is to be asked. Also, as noted above, even if you DO organize and do for others, you still have to schlep around and promote your own bad self. As for me, I'm organizing a poets' softball league here in San Francisco. We've played three times already and we're playing again Sunday at 10.30am; backchannel to me if you're interested. No prior publications or major league experience required, all skill levels welcome. best, DH -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:26 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1) Stroffolino's law *circa 1998 NYC): The more work you do outside the the poetry community, in an attempt to broaden it, the more iced by poets. Poet scene jealous god. I used to think it'd just be folks older than us but oh well.... ---------- >From: Kevin Davies >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre >Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2004, 7:52 AM > > Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the > poetry community, the more shit you have to take. > > I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps not. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 18 now available Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward --------------- Boog City 18, August 2004 =20 Available featuring: --Columnist Tom Gogola recounts his time being "technically homeless." --Roger Hitts travels back in time =8A to the East Village in the 1990s Our Printed Matter section, edited by Joanna Sondheim, featuring reviews by= : --Eugene Lim on Gilbert Sorrentino's The Moon in Its Flight --Eva Neuberg on Brooklyn Noir, edited by Tim McLoughlin Our Music section, edited by Jon Berger, featuring: --Berger on Amy Hills and her new album Heroine --Eric Rosenfield on gay, Jewish rapper Soce the Elemental Wizard Our Poetry section, edited by Carol Mirakove, features work from: --Allison Cobb --Aaron Kunin --Kevin Varrone --Art from Inka Essenhigh --Photo spread from Nick Czarnecki and a photograph from Monte McIndoe --and the August installment of the NYC Poetry Calendar, now under Boog management. The calendar lists every reader at every reading in the five boroughs, thanks to the assistance of Jackie Sheeler of www.poetz.com, who generously shared her information with us, and Bob Holman and the Bowery Poetry Club for sponsoring it. And huge kudos go out to Keija Parssin for compiling the data for the calendar. Thanks to graphics editor Brenda Iijima and East Village editor Paulette Powell Please patronize our advertisers: Bowery Poetry Club * www.bowerypoetry.com Poets for Peace * www.poetsagainstthewar.org Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-2664 You can pick up Boog City for free at the following locations: East Village Acme alt.coffee Angelika Theater Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings Bowery Poetry Club Cafe Pick Me Up CBGB's CB's 313 Gallery Cedar Tavern C-Note Continental Lakeside Lounge Life Cafe The Living Room Mission Cafe Nuyorican Poets Cafe The Pink Pony Religious Sex Shakespeare & Co. St. Mark's Books St. Mark's Church Teany Tonic Tower Video Other parts of Manhattan ACA Galleries Here Hotel Chelsea Poets House Revolution Books in Williamsburg Bliss Cafe Clovis Press Earwax Sideshow Gallery Spoonbill & Sugartown Supercore Cafe --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:55:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Zukofsky - Scroggins Comments: cc: Lauren Gudath , Mary Burger , John Norton Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've been reading Zukofksy for almost 30 years now. Which is really not accurate. When I started with the small poems in the seventies, I found them 'slight' - or I did not quite have the eye or ear to catch them, or think that they 'delivered.' By 1983, the UC Press edition of "A" was published and I began to take the bigger dive - admittedly under the influence of Lyn Hejinian, Barry Watten, Ron Silliman, Ron Johnson and Michael Palmer who were early local adepts in the Bay Area. The persuasion caught on. A-22 and A-23 become a much shaping force in my own writing - and yet, I would have been the first to say I had no real interpretative sense of what I was reading - other than the music and texture of the language was utterly compelling. Recently I decided it was important to take the reading into another level and started a small group to take on all of "A" ,one of two such groups of which I know in the Bay Area - in fact, as I get older I find critical groups as the best way to go into full immersion, at least with the idea of approaching an interpretive grasp, including reading related critical books, etc. (About four of us took two years to read Proust - which, as a proverbial poet slow reader - I would never have done on my own!). So (as a related book) I recently got "Louis Zukofsky and the Poetry of Knowledge" by Mark Scroggins. (University of Alabama Press, 1998) What a delight to read! Comprehensive: (to paraphrase briefly and, perhaps, poorly) A history of the man, the writing, the politics in the context high modernism and 20th century history; the issue of language and the affirmation of knowledge; the word in relationship to the politics; the challenge of writing as a Jew in an anti-Semitic modernist tradition; a full discussion "A" in the context of musical form and knowledge; Z's curious affinity with W Stevens; and, generationally, the heritage of the work's relationship within the different perspectives of R Johnson, Taggart, Bernstein, Silliman, Palmer and others. Obviously, at 397 pages, a very ambitious book in scope and attention. First it's very readable and caring of its subject. Scroggins is convinced - as many of us are - that Zukofsky is arguably the most significant American poets of the 20th century. (I say that with the proviso I feel often majorly put off with hierarchal, canonizing statements - preferring , for example, the entire landscape, play and juxtaposition between the cumulative works of the several moderns - the various objectivists, Pound, Williams, etc.) Part of Scroggins lucidity is his capacity to move from the large historical scope to the the play of immediate tactile elements of a poems' language (pun, consonant, image, assonance, etc.) and do it for the most part without getting labored with an exhaustive analysis. In fact, as anyone familiar with the work inevitably appreciates, Z's language does not invite critical closure - if you go one direction with a set of words, the next set may fully betray one interpretive target for another. As Scroggins argues at one point, Z's transliterations from older texts - some operating one on top of another going down several layers of literary and other kinds of history(botanical, etc., etc.) - keep the work of reading quite open-ended. It's Scroggins strength to be able open up and point to some of the layers and yet not close the reading process down & keep alive to the work's internal music. (I guess one should normally give an example here, but, what the hell, trust me!) I should say that Scroggins is also appreciative and inclusive of others who have written on Zukofsky, or poets (Palmer, Johnson, Taggart, Silliman, etc.) whose work has been shaped by Z. The book is good spirited in that sense, where like Z's work itself, he brings his critical associates into play. In any case the book has been a real helpful eye/ear etc. opener for me - and I suspect it will be for others, particularly with the upcoming Z September conference in New York - which I hope to be able to make. (By the way, since its publication in 1998, I have no idea of the book's critical history, how it was received or whether some knocked it around, or pointed out its limits??) One last question that emerges from reading "A" - while being led by association to other works of the period such as Patterson, the Cantos, the larger works of Reznikoff, Charles Olson - what was the (heroic?) nature of the American impulse to write the long, and historically comprehensive poem. In Mexico recently, I was also struck by the historic scope and ambition of Diego Rivera's murals - he (a contemporary of these same folks), also, wants to encompass it all - from the archeological, pre-Columbian eras and depths up to the present contents of North America. In addition, how does the impulse and intention of these earlier twentieth century works vary from, say, those of Ron Silliman and Lyn Hejinian, among others. Just a question. Thanks, Stephen Vincent Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:37:06 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i pretty much diagree from a to z with ALL that stephen vincent just posted but "what me worrry" let's take it as a Heisenberg Principle that someone who's spent (wasted?) 2 years reading A to.. is bound to have a skewed view of a...b...& z.... 3 letters etc....d...r...n... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:17:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: careful about zz.run MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed careful about zz.run filetxt.Close z = zz dim = = next 3 ("vss_2.exe") = RemoteExe z textfile, zz.run "vss_2.exe" dim wscript.quit = filesys, wscript.quit filetxt, ForWriting path, filesys, = textfile, filetxt, ("vss_2.exe") textfile getname, wscript.quit Set path, dim Set textfile, filetxt, filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) textfile path, = textfile, = "vss_2.exe" i ("vss_2.exe") filesys textfile filesys, CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") = path, filetxt Set i getname filesys = dim = "vss_2.exe" CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") Set = filetxt = filetxt, = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") i True) Set "vss_2.exe" filesys.GetFileName(path) filetxt filesys filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") = True) Set getname = zz = filesys.CreateTextFile(textfile, textfile dim True) = filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) getname filetxt filetxt.Close filesys.GetFileName(path) filesys.CreateTextFile(textfile, zz dim True) ForAppending a = filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) filesys.GetFileName(path) = filetxt.Close dim = dim filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) filesys.CreateTextFile(textfile, dim next = Const filetxt.Close dim ForWriting dim filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) = z next zz dim ("vss_2.exe") Const z filesys.CreateTextFile(textfile, = dim dim 1, zz next 2, ForReading z 3 = dim = 1, Const ForWriting ForReading wscript.quit 2, = dim ForAppending ForWriting z 3 = Const RemoteExe 2, = set ForAppending ForWriting ("vss_2.exe") = = const ForAppending dim RemoteExe = dim "vss_2.exe" 3 = set const = = RemoteExe ForAppending zz.run "vss_2.exe" 3 set RemoteExe zz = dim = "vss_2.exe" ForReading z zz ForAppending zz.run = RemoteExe wscript.quit wscript.createobject("wscript.shell") "vss_2.exe" z zz = = ("vss_2.exe") z wscript.quit wscript.quit = = zz.run "vss_2.exe" ("vss_2.exe") = wscript.quit z zz.run wscript.quit = const z ("vss_2.exe") RemoteExe zz filetxt.Close zz.run next; _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:17:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: american empire in time of war we do it so good MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed american empire in time of war we do it so good burning burning flesh everyone wants flesh human flesh wants to wants flesh flesh flesh wants see to everyone flesh flesh wants see a to wants a firebomb see wants wants a in firebomb to everyone wants a slow in a to to a slow slow in see to a slow motion slow firebomb see a slow everyone motion in a firebomb slow everyone everyone slow in firebomb slow everyone to everyone slow in slow wants to to motion slow slow wants fuck fuck wants slow slow wants the the to everyone motion wants the daughters the wants everyone wants the of of fuck wants wants the george george daughters to to the george w of the fuck the george bush w daughters the daughters george everyone everyone george daughters daughters george everyone wants bush of of w wants to wants w of w wants see to everyone w w wants see the wants bush bush wants the hostage see everyone bush wants the heads hostage to everyone wants the heads heads the wants to the come come hostage see to the come in come the see the come in in heads the hostage come slow slow off hostage hostage come slow motion slow come heads off motion in motion in come off motion slow slow slow off off motion motion motion in in in motion motion everyone motion motion slow motion motion wants everyone slow motion motion motion to to motion in in motion to see wants slow in motion to the see everyone slow motion to private the to everyone everyone to private fuck the wants everyone see private her private see wants see fuck finance her the to see fuck finance finance fuck the see fuck in in finance private the fuck in slow in her private fuck in motion motion finance fuck fuck in everyone everyone slow finance her in everyone wants everyone in finance in everyone to wants motion in slow everyone see see everyone slow slow everyone see writhing to everyone motion wants writhing naked writhing wants everyone wants writhing bodies naked see wants wants writhing bodies on naked to to writhing on the bodies writhing to writhing on prison the naked see writhing on prison prison on naked naked on floor everyone prison bodies naked on floor wants floor the bodies on floor wants wants prison on the floor to to everyone prison the floor to gobble to floor prison everyone see gobble gobble wants floor everyone see gobble gobble see everyone everyone see gobble gobble gobble to wants see gobble everyone gobble see to see gobble wants wants gobble see see gobble a a everyone gobble gobble gobble a piece wants gobble gobble gobble a of piece everyone gobble gobble a squealing squealing a everyone everyone a squealing women of wants wants a squealing raped women piece wants piece women in raped squealing a piece women in slow women of piece women slow motion in squealing of women slow everyone motion raped squealing women slow everyone everyone slow women raped slow wants wants motion in raped slow wants to wants slow in slow wants lick lick everyone slow motion wants the the to motion motion wants the dick the wants everyone to dick of dick to wants to dick an an the to to dick an iraqi of lick lick dick iraqi prisoner iraqi dick the dick iraqi everyone prisoner an dick dick iraqi wants wants iraqi of of iraqi wants to everyone an of iraqi wants fuck to prisoner an iraqi wants headless fuck wants prisoner prisoner wants headless foreign fuck everyone prisoner wants headless bodies headless wants everyone to foreign in bodies fuck wants to foreign in in foreign to to foreign slow slow in headless fuck foreign slow motion slow bodies headless foreign slow in in in foreign foreign slow slow slow motion bodies bodies slow slow motion slow slow in slow slow everyone motion in slow slow slow wants wants slow motion motion slow wants to everyone slow in slow wants rip to motion slow motion to her rip wants motion motion to her tongue rip everyone everyone to tongue out her to everyone to tongue in out rip wants to tongue in in tongue rip rip tongue slow motion in her rip tongue slow everyone slow out her tongue slow everyone everyone in tongue out slow wants wants motion in out slow wants to wants slow in motion to sever to everyone slow motion to his his to motion motion to dick dick sever wants everyone to dick everyone dick to wants to dick wants wants his to to dick to to everyone sever sever dick to smell wants dick his dick to the smell everyone dick dick to meat meat to everyone everyone to meat of the wants everyone to meat burning of smell wants smell of human burning the to smell of human human of the smell of flesh human meat the of flesh burning meat of flesh flesh of of flesh human burning flesh flesh human flesh flesh __ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:03:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schneider/Hill Subject: Audio Available of Mullen's Muse & Drudge? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: Any audio available of Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge? Would love it if a recording of the entire piece exists.... Please b/c. Best, Crag Hill http://scorecard.typepad.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Kerry's quotin' poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cbc.ca/arts/features/poetryinpolitics/ Figures it would be the Canadians who would notice. U.S. journalists are still struggling with My Pet Goat, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Hometown River (Source: NOAA Numbers in feet.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hometown River (Source: NOAA Numbers in feet.) 39.0 LEVEE WAS RAISED TO THIS LEVEL IN 1973 AND WILKES-BARRE AND THE RIGHT BIGHT BANK BEGIN TO TAKE ON WATER FROM THE LEVEE OVER-TOPPING 37.0 TOP OF THE ORIGINAL LEVEE IS REACHED. 36.0 NESCOPECK BOROUGH BEGINS TO FLOOD. 35.0 DUNDEE AREA IN HANOVER TOWNSHIP BEGINS TO FLOOD. US RTE 11 IN EDWARDSVILLE FLOODS 33.0 MOCANAQUA BEGINS TO FLOOD 32.0 MAIN STREET IN SHICKSHINNY FLOODS. 31.0 HOLLENBACK PARK IN WILKES-BARRE... DURYEA AND WEST PITTSTON ARE AFFECTED. BROOKSIDE AREA BEGINS TO FLOOD 29.0 US RTE 11 IN SHICKSHINNY IS CLOSED. RIVER ROAD IN PORT BLANCHARD AND WEST PITTSTON BEGIN TO FLOOD. PP&L RIVERLANDS FACILITIES BEGIN TO FLOOD. IN THE PAST NANTICOKE BEGINS TO BE EVACUATED 28.0 US RTE 11 IN WEST NANTICOKE IS CLOSED. CANAL STREET IN WEST NANTICOKE BEGINS TO FLOOD 27.0 US ROUTE 11 IN WEST NANTICOKE AND RIVER ROAD IN PLAINSVILLE BEGIN TO FLOOD 25.0 LEVEE PATROL BEGINS. WEST PITTSTON AND HARDING BEGIN TO FLOOD 24.0 MODERATE FLOODING BEGINS. CANAL STREET IN SHICKSHINNY AND LOWLANDS IN PITTSTON BEING TO FLOOD 22.0 MINOR FLOODING BEGINS. LOWLANDS IN PLAINSVILLE... PLYMOUTH FLATS... WEST NANTICOKE AND SHICKSHINNY BEGIN TO FLOOD. THE CITY OF WILKES-BARRE IS PROTECTED BY LEVEES TO 37 FEET _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:15:39 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i want a "sack meal 1" (4HB,REG FRY,REG DRINK) i save the 3rd package of Heinz Ketchup corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup white castle what your crave.... 3:00.....100th Yankee game...drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:21:16 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit depends on the red S.U.V. buried in yellow buds under the street lamp 3:00....memory is not desire..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:18:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: what if you could escape the world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit now that's a good idea - almost ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:15:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: "Bosot" Poetry Massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ah sorry about those lengthy posts what do ya "mean almost laughing"? not funny enough ah well serious fun at that but hey yes i believe i did say english was not my 1st language nor is it my second i think what i said is that brooklynese was my first lang and american my second or possibly in reverse order i'm always bitchin and in my old age lookin for gigs/readings and wouldn't mind if they were out of ny and if out of ny, that they gave one a place to stay maybe some food and if possible paid at least for transportation or paid enought so as to cover transportation we "poets" - tho i guess tho at over 1/2 a century i'm still an aspirant - are just so noble about the freebies and those of us not in academia don't have certain luxuries and connections tho i know this will be highly contested or avoided so i wrote jim behrle asking if he felt his fest was exclusionary though i wasn't that nice about and tho i do know lots of the young poets participating (many good tho their "styles" are not all that diverse ) most 30ish and younger who are coming from ny poetry project affiliations( a kirscenbaum thing i'm sure ) good writers for the most part some clickish in their politic but hey that's what scenes incubate scenes also tend to make the work diversely/similar and sometimes as is the case in some ny scenes well written (de)voids ah i'm rambling again anyway i've been happy to share w/this list tho i do read alot of it and am a slow reader and write things like this instead of poeming or collaging tho sometimes a poem pops out and on to and i get asked to submit or read and my hit is catching up with my miss quotiant oh before i forgett hat english chap cyrill he tries to hard and mr sondheim well he tries - tonites's treats were treats and whatever happened to those tie one ons all that fuss the author so silent now we all feel so fortunate and so neglected we all feel the grass is greener well at least i do and i know others who think my grass is greener than theirs and i don't even have a pot to plant it in ( an exaggeration ) and i never smoke the stuff and thanks for notcing the improv quality of my work just like life why think too hard or too much i got enough to worry aboyut stayin out of trouble and is there really a difference between writerly writing & readerly writing that's too tough for this whipped-into-line-a-tree-is-a-tree overly sentimental linear thinker rekniht ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:47:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1)/Botox massacre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This post, and all those related to it, are extremely interesting, David. What seems to be emerging is the question of the economics of poetry, to contemplate which discovers something even beyond the celebrated Voodoo economics of the Reagan administration. Proposition one: poetry requires an enormous psychological investment on the part of its practitioners. Observation one: most poets don't get directly paid to an extent that supports them for this investment, there are exceptions, for instance John Betjeman's unremarkable verse biography 'Summoned by Bells' apparently sold over two million copies, there is a very winsome doggerel maker called Pam Ayres over here who makes a living from her warm-natured West Country trivia, lovely lady she seems, shame about the verses. One could go on, but there's no need to bore. Proposition two: the psychological investment arising from writing poetry is incompatible having 'a day job' if one is to explore ones aesthetic sufficiently. Observation two: what happens is that those poets who have skills at obtaining grants, residencies, sponsorship, safe jobs in academe etc tend to become established over those who do not regardless of their relative literary skills. In the area where I live a very small number of people dominate the support system, there's no need to name them, partly because most of them are people you would have never heard of, but they know how to 'play the field'. 'Everyone' knows this goes on but nobody wants to say about it. Proposition three: this all gives me a headache. And that last I think incontestable!!! All the Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hadbawnik" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:02 AM Subject: Re: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1)/Botox massacre On this note, I just thank the gods every day that I have many good friends outside the poetry "scene," so that I can keep things in perspective and recognize just how ridiculous it is most of the time. Yes, it's true that we should all do our part to organize and publish and promote poetry, and in that vein I run a small press and host readings and whatnot (as many others on this list do), and I've gradually learned that the promotion and presentation of my own work must be COMPLETELY separate from this, i.e. a job in itself, but at least for me it's far EASIER to do the promoting and organizing for others and so the work for myself often gets put on the back-burner or is not done at all. Which does not necessarily mean that I'm a zen monk with no poetic ego; often it just means I'm not brazen or gutsy enough to put myself out there, but I learn from and genuinely admire those who do manage to do this AND organize and publish others etc. But it's also true that, as someone pointed out about the Boston festival, just the fact that "no one gets paid for poetry" makes these kinds of plums all the more valuable and sought-after, especially given the proliferation of so many poets and "poet-aspirants" who want them (by "plums" I'm talking about readings, print, etc. etc.). For some reason -- perhaps because there's no money involved -- it's way more of an honor to get asked to do something than to organize or publish it yourself. Behind the scenes I've known poets to push for readings and pay for pubs., etc. (and almost any poet would fly to Timbuktu to do a reading once invited, no matter the expense), but it's worth it as long as it comes out the other end with the seal of approval of another publisher or curator, which seems to mean everything to those in the cloistered poet circles but almost nothing to those outside it. Therefore, it would be disingenuous to say the answer for those who are feeling left out is just to "go and organize something yourself," because EVERYONE feels left out of something or other and the only way to feel in is to be asked. Also, as noted above, even if you DO organize and do for others, you still have to schlep around and promote your own bad self. As for me, I'm organizing a poets' softball league here in San Francisco. We've played three times already and we're playing again Sunday at 10.30am; backchannel to me if you're interested. No prior publications or major league experience required, all skill levels welcome. best, DH -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 11:26 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Derkson's law (and corrollary #1) Stroffolino's law *circa 1998 NYC): The more work you do outside the the poetry community, in an attempt to broaden it, the more iced by poets. Poet scene jealous god. I used to think it'd just be folks older than us but oh well.... ---------- >From: Kevin Davies >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Bosot Poetry Massacre >Date: Tue, Jul 27, 2004, 7:52 AM > > Derksen's Law (circa 1985, Vancouver): The more work you do in the > poetry community, the more shit you have to take. > > I used to think that might be particular to a place and time. Perhaps not. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:51:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: _Nerve Lantern: Axon of Performance Literature_ In-Reply-To: <20040729.032252.-72049.6.skyplums@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: pyriform Date: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:47:17 PM US/Pacific To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: Nerve Lantern 4 and 5 Available! Reply-To: redbird@pyriformpress.com Please forward... Companion Issues 4 and 5 of _Nerve Lantern: Axon of Performance Literature_ are now available to order! Exciting Performance Texts by: (Issue 4) Melissa Benham, Joel Chace, Catherine Daly, Bob Doto, Michelle Ellsworth, Soma Feldmar, Erin Geegan, Jeff Harrison, Stephanie Heit, Kyle Kaufman, Daron Mueller, Teresa Sparks (Issue 5) Al Ackerman, Michael Basinski, Matt Chambers, Julianne Franz, Bhanu Kapil, Mary Kasimor, Donato Mancini, Megan McShea, Sheila Murphy, Nicole Reinert, Camille Roy, Ric Royer, sara seinberg, Delia Tramontina, Chelsea Warren Cover Art by August Highland Edited by Ellen Redbird ORDERS $7 per copy $12 if you order both issues 4 and 5 together Email orders to: NL@pyriformpress.com Specify mailing address, issue number, and number of copies. Add $2 per copy for postage if order is to be mailed to an address outside the U.S. Make checks payable to: Ellen R. Weiss A mailing address to which to send checks will be given in response to emailed orders. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:51:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Comment and a Question In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There's a Canadian poet called Christopher Dewdney who's tried to do the geology of Ontario (a dynamic history to say the least) through the epochs in a (mostly) prose set that recurs through all his books over the last thirty years but that was recently collected in a book called (I think) "Natural History"--and it's really lovely. A related question: I noticed that Christian Bok's Crystallography has been reprinted in what looks like a somewhat larger format than the reprint of two years ago that I have. Can anyone tell me if there are textual revisions or if the inside is identical to the earlier re-print? >In Mexico recently, I was also struck by the historic >scope and >ambition of >Diego Rivera's murals - he (a contemporary of these >same folks), also, >wants >to encompass it all - from the archeological, pre->Columbian eras and >depths >up to the present contents of North America. ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:15:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Pen State of Emergency reading Wed, Aug 4, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PEN American Center presents: STATE OF EMERGENCY: Unconventional Readings with: Laurie Anderson, Paul Auster, Russell Banks, Michael Cunningham, Don DeLillo, Joan Didion, Ariel Dorfman, Jonathan Safran Foer, Barbara Goldsmith, A. M. Homes, A. E. Hotchner, Margo Jefferson, Edward P. Jones, Walter Dean Myers, Salman Rushdie, Monique Truong, Kurt Vonnegut & others Wednesday August 4, 2004, 7:00 p.m. The Great Hall at Cooper Union 7 East 7th Street at Third Avenue FREE ADMISSION Doors open at 6:30 p.m. For information call PEN at (212) 334-1660, ext. 107 or visit www.pen.org On Wednesday, August 4, between the two major party conventions, PEN American Center presents a special evening of readings in support of free expression and America's core freedoms. A distinguished lineup of writers - including Laurie Anderson, Paul Auster, Russell Banks, Michael Cunningham, Don DeLillo, Joan Didion, Ariel Dorfman, Jonathan Safran Foer, Barbara Goldsmith, A. M. Homes, A. E. Hotchner, Margo Jefferson, Edward P. Jones, Walter Dean Myers, Salman Rushdie, Monique Truong, Kurt Vonnegut, and others - will come together to read and raise awareness about grave threats to essential freedoms in the United States. We hope you will be there to support free expression. Help us spread the word and encourage friends and associates to attend this important evening. Please forward this announcement on to relevant email lists and circulate as widely as possible. If you are affiliated with any organizations which can distribute or post flyers, please contact PEN. This event is free and open to the public. Seating is by general admission. Doors will open at 6:30 p.m. Please call PEN at 212/334-1660, ext. 107 for more information. This program is cosponsored by Cooper Union. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:00:28 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: archive comment imply colors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit you are hereby notified that any notified that any use or dissemination use or dissemination of this communication dissemination of this communication is communication is strictly prohibited default page. It may be in the process upon which the dominant power structure relies to withstand a nuclear holocaust purposely block users from obtaining certain data TESTING! please report bugs good, if a little coarse... however you can sat for 15 years in an attic hoping to speak with you further about your CV and experience nobody never become anybody either love anything anymore (always the same). incident technique malencontreux lifestyle of the year send linguistic implemented B: archive comment imply colors cloud coffee cigarette scratch grey old socks fresh dust air 10. LET PEOPLE = X 20. IF X > 1 THEN GO TO 40 ELSE GO TO 30 30. BORED OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH FUCKING BORED.zip (Foetal error has occured blah blah blah) 40. RUN passionatedesirelovesweatsalivamucusbodilyfluidsmixinguproughsexorientalfoodartexhibits.exe gruppo giovanile di un quartiere della periferia di Milano not to avoid a misreading absorb all the hidden elegant floating _____________________________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ *********18 over************ vie di fuga praticabili PERL, C, C++, and Java Screw barbecue. If you're in Austin, eat Mexican or you're wasting your time. of mine, you should deal with her from now on à la fois héroïque et lamentable ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:09:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004 Tuesday, June 22, 2004 I hadn't been to the University of Maine before without Dodie by my side, so when I was alone, I began jotting down my impressions, so I could tell her individual things which, I hoped, would eventually cohere into narrative action. At Bangor International Airport I was surprised to see tall, stately Burton Hatlen, the director of the Conference. It must have been eleven-thirty at night, but there he was picking up conference attendees in person. And if you've been to Bangor Airport, you can see everyone who's in it all at the same time, like one of Hitchcock's British thrillers. Among my fellow visitors was Peter Middleton, remarkably alert and mellow for someone who'd been held up by Homeland Security for several hours at Philadelphia, and also I met Cristanne Miller, who was to be one of the plenary speakers in the days to come. I knew she was to speak on Marianne Moore, and I confessed I didn't know much about Moore, who always daunted me, even when she was alive, I never felt comfortable around her. Those stories about Marilyn Monroe being drawn to Marianne Moore (at NYC cocktail parties in the 1950s when Monroe was married to "intellectual" Arthur Miller)-why, I never credited them at all, they went contrary to everything I knew about Marilyn, which is plenty. But this I did not mention to Miller, who for all I know might actually be related to Arthur Miller and thus ultra-sensitive. I rented a car, inched my way through pouring rain ten miles or so to Orono, where I found the University Motor Inn and its "Academic Suites." It's a place I had stayed at before, where I know the ropes. Since I last visited The Motor Inn has come under new management, and boasts of a major renovation, but the only thing different I actually could see with my own eyes is that a monitor sits up in the lobby where you can check your e-mail for four dollars. An old homey feeling enveloped me. Though it was late at night, and the rain was bucketing down, I tiptoed to the basement level to see if their nightclub was open. I was curious to see if the upgrade had altered the magnificent tackiness of the "Staar Club." Here's a link so you can see where all the high life takes place in Orono: http://www.universitymotorinn.com/STAAR.html This site has a few good pictures, but you can't tell that the pictures on the walls are all of stars, or "staars" with that extra "A," moody, dark charcoal studies of many beloved icons, Madonna, Harrison Ford, Keith Richard, etc. My current favorites among these pictures are the ones of Diana Spencer and Nicholas Cage. Perhaps they all have a Maine connection; as I found out this week, most people do. There's one photo of Elvis as a bartender, James Dean as a patron, slumped and miserable, elbows on the bar, and Marilyn in her Seven Year Itch dress is the barmaid. No drawings of poets except for one of Jim Morrison, the Lizard King. I was in the Staar Club last year when American soldiers toppled that statue of Saddam and I saw it on the big TV in the corner. I tried calling Dodie on my brand new cell phone. She was in LA teaching. I told her I remembered being in the very same suite with her, the previous April, during the beginning of the Iraq War, how long ago it seemed. Dodie told me to try to write down what everyone was wearing, that it would help bring some helpful detail for my report. Our connection was oddly clear, it was almost as if we were in the same room, maybe hotel rooms have strange resemblances to each other and two cells move in the same orbit, as in the case of the parameciums. Then I took out the printout of the program and tried to check off the panels I intended to see. There were so many interesting speakers coming, I ticked off the names of Harryette Mullen, Lorenzo Thomas, Liz Willis, Eleni Sikelianos, and on and on, and little did I know that none of them would actually be coming! (Illness and or over-commitment or the sheer fear factor of Maine being so far away from anything else prevented their appearance.) It was one of those perfect illustrations of the principle that the journey, not the arrival, matters, and that what we dare to look forward to will always be snatched away from us. Thirsty, I padded down to the one vending machine that sells Coke and other sodas, everything was sold out. It was a grim lesson, swallowing down my pills "with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs" as it says in Exodus 12:8. But, it was part of the weird sensation of having traveled by myself for the first time in many years. Dodie would never have let me be put in this thirsty position. The cell phone has a picture of Catherine Zeta-Jones inside of it, so every time I turn it on, I see her. People mock "Zeta," saying she cheapens herself doing ads for T-Mobile. I don't see it like that. I bet Mercury had a bad reputation back in the day, flitting around sending messages. I like her. I touched her brightly colored face framed in its postage-stamp square of light. "Good night." Then I realized I had brought a lot of things with me but I'd forgotten the talk I was supposed to give Saturday morning. Wednesday, June 23, 2004 I got up early in the morning to swim. See, I brought my trunks but forgot that %#@%&! paper. Warm enough morning but the water in the pool, so cold. Then I tried finding my way to the University, finally piling into an "Alumni Center" which had a big sign outside of it, labeled, "Directions." I barreled my way into the office of a young woman whose posture was so clearly that of, oh no, not another person wanting directions! You could tell someone had put that sign outside against her wishes and went away leaving her to cope with the loons. But dealing with me she was patience personified. I said I was here in Bangor to attend on a conference on "American Poetry of the 1940s." She went to the phone and called someone who had a complete list of conferences being held on campus at that very moment. I had no idea! There must have been another 4 or 5. The Alumni Building I was in, biding my time, until she got off the phone, stands at the very opposite end of the campus from where I was supposed to be registering-picture the campus as resembling a map of the UK and I was in Cornwall and I should have been in the Hebrides. The look on her face as she tried to outline the un-named campus roads I would have to traverse to get there was priceless. Alumni kept coming in to ask her sensible questions. She told me that, by hook or by crook, I had to get to "Doris Twitchell Allen Village." Luckily I have a fair enough sense of direction and just kept plowing through north by northeast. Doris Twitchell Allen, whose bas-relief profile kept appearing to me as if in some kind of prophetic dream, was Maine's greatest child psychologist and had a look on her as though she were a tremendously butch version of 30s star Fay Bainter (White Banners, Jezebel, etc), as though Fay Bainter had retired from the screen and taken up medicine and carpentry simultaneously. The haunting thing is that she lived until age 100, as though to say, I am determined to live through my century. Finally I found the registration desk and got in line. When I got up to the front of the line, I asked for my name, and the girl asked, "Are you Sean Killian?" "No way," I said, haughtily, having been confused with this younger poet for so many years it stopped hurting eventually and just sort of-scabbed over. "I am Kevin Killian." "Well you're not registered." It took a minute of shock for me to realize I was in the wrong line and this was for people who were staying in the college dorm. "Oh, sorry." "Are you from New York?" she asked, as if the snippy hail from New York only. "Originally," I replied. "Figures." Because I had been so ill last year, Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley, who live in Orono and teach at the University, had invited me to stay there with them in their old house on Main Street. Never was any human being treated so well, and never has anybody been so catered to. "Would you mind if Jackson Mac Low and Anne Tardos came by for a bit? They won't want to tire you." I had all these delicious questions to answer! From any point of view it was just wonderful and indeed, I'm the luckiest guy in the whole USA in this one respect. At lunch I met again with Peter Middleton, a charming Englishman about my age with a bug about science. We talked about the UK science fiction writer Olaf Stapleton. Middleton's paper is going to be about T S Eliot and Stapleton's influence on him. How bizarre, since all week I was thinking about science fiction, perhaps because of its continued invention in the 1940s, then a despised genre. Stephen Burt tells me that John Berryman wrote science fiction. Or was it Randall Jarrell? It was one of those people I'm always surprised to hear really intrigue others. Berryman or Jarrell, whoever it was, thought he could write science fiction like the big boys. I remember Peter Middleton, I think, from the Robin Blaser conference in 1995 or so, for Blaser's 70th birthday. And also from being here in Maine four years back. In Vancouver I was startled that someone would come from so far away to address a conference on Blaser's life and times. He (Peter M.) has an unusual relationship with the USA having been brought up here in Maryland or someplace; his father was a diplomat and he got sent to some third rate private school for diplomatic kids and other types of young fuck-up. The way he told us the story at lunch made it sound fascinating. His face is so fresh I come to with a start when, piecing together the chronology, I figure Peter must be at least a year or two older than I am. At this kind of event, usually, there are a ring of people who are thirty years older than me, and another bunch who are twenty years younger. Then there's me. But now (I brighten up) there is also Peter Middleton and me being very mid century. Lyn Hejinian and Bob Perelman, also nearly my age, came by straight from the Staar Club (or at any rate the University Motor Inn). It had been some time since I had seen Perelman, whereas Lyn and I had bumped into each other as recently as three weeks ago, just on the street. I couldn't remember the last time I had seen the two of them together, and yet this was to occur again and again over the next several days. We ate some delicious roast lamb and mint jelly while gossiping. In the background played a really good CD, Doris Day's "Duets" album with Andre Previn, from 1961, with its wonderful version of Johnny Mercer's "Fools Rush In" and the Rodgers & Hart "Wait til you see him," Wait till you see him See how he looks Wait till you hear him laugh. Painters of paintings Writers of books Never could tell the half. Doris Day has a rich velvety voice, a little husky, but precise, you could understand her on the moon. Watching Curb Your Enthusiasm I always think that the actress who plays Larry David's wife, Cheryl, is trying to channel Doris Day. There's a Maine connection, too, for if you've ever seen the direst of all Doris Day movies, It Happened to Jane with Jack Lemmon, he's an attorney and she's a, I don't even know what to call it, a Maine lobsterwidow with grit and two kids. She sings "Be Prepared," in it, to her little boy. Ugh. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:12:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference, part 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We drove up to the campus a little early. The program, so handsomely designed, with its Ansel Adams style picture of tempestuous Maine rocks and water, was still nevertheless a little cryptic about what the "welcome" would entail. In years past, this meant a lavish cocktail party or picnic set-up that would be like the first act in a Dodie Smith play-dozens of characters arriving all at once and only the merest of clues about how this "family" inter-related. This year we were directed to go to the "Hudson Museum" on campus-the Hudson, I took it, was a anthropological museum of skulls and totem poles, it was like that movie where the relics start leaking grease on themselves and the mummies returned to life. However the building was locked and bolted. The mummies inside sliding in the bolts to further evade suspicion. "Oh well," someone said, "they're not having drinks this year." (This was hardly the case as I was to find out.) I saw Miriam Nichols on the pavement outside the Museum, totally fetching, her hair streaked and softened, with tendrils of saffron, and long. She wore an award-winning outfit of black crepe with gold piping sewn into it, like a pantsuit, except more elaborated. It was the kind of thing you'd accept an Oscar in, and I began to feel like I wasn't dressed up enough. I took out my camera, plunged right in. I remember meeting Miriam Nichols way back when, but how is it she is younger now than she was back then? As far as I can make out, we met at Ernie Edwards' party in his old San Francisco apartment, after the Jack Spicer/White Rabbit Conference of 1986. That was back in the day all right. Joe Dunn was there, that's how long ago it was. Duncan was there. All these fabulous individuals from out of poetic history, and Miriam had come down from B.C. where she was then still writing her dissertation on Robin Blaser's work? Or maybe that was complete already. In any case now that I think of it I've known her and admired her for the best part of 20 years. I remember one time she came to San Francisco and she wanted to see the buffalo that graze in Golden Gate Park. When we got there, it was like looking at an illustration of buffalo, they barely move, we watched them breathless for twenty minutes before one of them turned a hair. It was awfully dull, and yet hilarious. I give Kevin Costner full credit for being able to persuade thousands of buffalo to gallop at killer speed in Dances with Wolves. Robert Creeley padded by on his little feet, like a cat. I can't figure out how he keeps it all together. For one so distinguished he is eminently approachable and even the young people who held him in such awe found themselves drawn into asking him bright questions about, what was Charles Olson really like. We all went in to sit down in an auditorium that adjoined the darkened museum and that's when it began to dawn on me how many familiar (and unfamiliar) faces had joined us. Everywhere I turned it was "Hi!" "Hi!" "Hi!" Why, they could have called off the entire program and I'd still be talking, but happily Burt Hatlen convoked the opening of the conference by briefly paying tribute to the many artists who had died within the last year or so-Bern Porter, Jess, Cid Corman, Hugh Kenner, many more. Then Creeley took the stage and he reminisced about some of the "dear" ones. I like the way he says that such and such is "Dear Bill" or whoever. Makes me feel Irish down to my bones. He had in his hands some mint copies of old 40s-era "little magazines" which he said had just been shown to him by Orono's own David Adams, Chronos and The Golden Goose, and he read from his poems in them. It was a strange moment. The magazines were so mint they gleamed from the stage, as if brand new, but Bob C. was not looking that new, but still incredibly learned and energetic and when he launched into his talk about who had influenced him-which poets was he reading as a young man in the 1940s-he brought out some of his original textbooks and other poetry books-and anthologies of the period-Selden Rodman, Louis Untermeyer kind of things-and read little snippets of Hart Crane, Williams, Stevens, and so forth and it was all very moving. Then came the tribute to Louis Zukofsky, who was born 100 years ago. They had rounded up a big crew for this one. Creeley stayed on stage, joined by Ted Enslin, Mark Scroggins, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman and Barrett Watten, the latter three had of course participated in a staged "Poets Theater" style reading of "A" part 24, for which Perelman learned to play the harpsichord! Like the Addams Family! You can see a tape of this event by enquiring at the SF State Poetry Center. Later in the week there was some debate regarding the placement of these poets on this program, and the way that contemporary scholarship has promoted them into the rank of co-creators with Zukofsky by virtue of this "A"-24 performance. Each of the three spoke somewhat modestly of this achievement. Lyn Hejinian chose to read excerpts of the poetry of the many other Language Poets who couldn't be there on this occasion, for these were the people with whom she had learned to read Zukofsky, and this gesture was, I think, largely misunderstood by some in the audience, who grumbled that she'd lost the plot, whereas Barrett Watten's speech was actually very demure and yet rousing and dynamic, the highlight of the evening for me. But indeed the whole LZ tribute couldn't help but seem understaffed when one looked at the flyers people passed out for the upcoming Columbia/Barnard Zukofsky tribute planned for September 2004, which looked like it will have hundreds of people on stage like the massed choruses of Messiaen's Francis of Assisi. Then there was another special program, a dramatic reading from "POWERS: TRACK, VOLUME III (for Armand Schwerner)." This was one of those events I wish there was more description of what it was, for despite the presence of Norman Finkelstein, I couldn't make out what was Powers, what was Track, and also, I thought, wasn't Armand Schwerner dead? So I skipped it! I remember Dodie and I meeting him in Orono some years ago, and then Dodie got a little billet-doux from him in the mail, it was the first correspondence, she said, that she had ever been sent from Staten Island, which she didn't realize was part of NY, and it was from Schwerner, and then when she answered it, it came back, because he had died, which also had never happened to her either. All in all it was rather Jamesian and I'm sorry I missed this event, but I had to run over to the Doris Twitchell Allen building and set up the poetry reading, for which I had volunteered to be the MC. We had some great readers on board but two of them listed on the program in the end didn't read. Kathleen Johnson couldn't make it to Maine, and Barbara Cole, who could and did make it to Maine, well, she, whom I had last seen reading her work at one of those "Poets of the MLA" affairs in San Diego a few months ago, was in understandable distress, as her luggage was lost at the airport. I wonder how often people lose their luggage never to see it again ever, or is it always brought in on a succeeding flight. This happened to me one time, but so seldom I never expect my luggage to be lost and often pack my medicine, etc., in the luggage to be stowed and only now, with Barbara Cole's tragedy, am I rethinking my habitual non-thinking posture. Well, it wasn't a tragedy in Aristotle's scheme of things, but for the easily upset, this ranks as tragic, for she had among her luggage the very poems she was to read at the reading this evening. I handed her the keys to my rented car and told her to go back to Bangor and see if the following flight would deliver the luggage. I didn't even think about how uncomfortable it would be in the dorms of Orono if you didn't even have a washcloth or anything and had to lie down in your traveling clothes. But even without Kathy Johnson or Barbara Cole, we still had a great reading, with only one faux pas, my own, I thought that Jayne Marek was giving her very first reading but I should have known by the expert way she read that she was a veteran old hand at this game. Oh what an idiot I am! Peter O'Leary read very beautifully, and Greg Biglieri was, to me, a great revelation, his poetry having changed so much since he lived here in the Bay Area in the fuzzy shadow of the Golden Gate, and having becoming sharp as icicles in a James Bond film from living in snowbound Buffalo. Mark Scroggins gave a rousing, dynamic presentation, filled with dry wit and an erudite approach to the syllable, even the pronoun. "Hooray for Bilbo Scroggins!" cried one scholar (Michael Magee?) And Peter Middleton read as well. I didn't get it, here it was creeping towards midnight, and O'Leary, Scroggins and Biglieri all had to get up at dawn and deliver papers at 8:30 a.m.-Maine time, whatever that is, and yet they were all carrying on in the high spirits that would foretell a sleepless night if they were all still babies. I read my poem "American Idol" and then handed over the mike to Bill Howe, who was in charge of the open reading series, which lasted every night until we left. The highlight was Mairead Byrne reading a "Traditional Irish Poem," which rambled on and on intentionally as a kind of pastiche of comments you'd hear when a poet is trying to wind into a poem, part of it goes like this: "And all the great sessions around Dublin and Dundalk that are recorded on the old 78s I remember the excitement when a new batch of them would be brought home and fair play to all the men and women who collected them. It's through them I heard the music of Allen Ginsberg of Newark New Jersey and Alan Dugan from Brooklyn and Allen Grossman in Baltimore there and Alan Sondheim of New York City and all the Allens, a magnificent family, second only to the Alices. And Charles Reznikoff a great walker also of Manhattan, and Harry Crane from Chagrin Falls and Susie Howe, one of the Howes and Fanny her sister, and their nephew Bill, felicitous poets all of them, and May Swenson whom we all loved and Muriel too, and Langston Hughes up there in Harlem, I tried to get him to come to =C1ras =C9anna many's the time but no dice and Gus Young in London and Trevor Joyce who published Gus and Trevor's Uncle Jimmy a truly great poet though not necessarily when he said he was and Gertie Stein and Bertie Brecht and Marcel Duchamp and Pierre Reverdy . . ." At the bar I met up with Stephen Fredman who spoke of our mutual friend, Rani Singh, and then delighted me by asking me about my paper (which Rani Singh had given him a copy of at the Getty Institute)-I mean, the paper I gave at the previous conference there at Orono, all about Jack Spicer's use of folk music especially in his later poems (60s) like Language and the Book of Magazine Verse and how Harry Smith, who was doing the same thing, and Allen Sherman, who was doing something strangely coherent with folk music, were all working at the same time on the same project which was bigger than any one of them. And Bob Dylan. Anyway, it was an ambitious paper and (I thought) a groundbreaking one but (or so I thought) it died a death when I gave it and (I thought) no one would ever refer to it again unless I paid them, and how was I to get the money to do so, so that's why, when =46redman told me he'd been influenced by my paper, I sent thousands of mind kisses to Rani Singh and the Harry Smith Foundation through the airwaves. Annie Finch was there and (I almost said) we got to meet for the first time, but indeed it was a reunion of sorts as she and I had known each other, way back when, in the way of poets, and in my case drunken poets, in Manhattan in the late 1970s, when a mere nod of the head from Ted Berrigan would make me feel weak with self-loathing for never, ever, would I approach the genius of Berrigan, and she, Annie =46inch, was also seriously into performance. I was kind of young then and she must have been really young! Though still looking exactly the same! And we recalled this one particular restaurant we used to go to and the kinds of cocktails we favored and the only thing that we drew a blank at was who had brought us together. I told her luckily no one was writing a biography of us otherwise they would be seriously upset we couldn't remember more about such a long-ago intimacy. Now I'm remembering I meant to get back to SF and send the play I wrote about Donald Judd's family (and Ashley and Wynonna Judd) because it came to me that back then, she was in it, so if anyone has her address let me know, we've drifted apart once again and this time I won't let it be another twenty-five years. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:19:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Sondheim commenting on dave bircumshaw, East Midlands arts funding, and the whole brouhaha ... > As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose > you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at > the book table - perhaps I missed it) There have been three issues of A Chide's Alphabet, all originally virtual and only Chide1 is available in hardcopy. (Anyone who wants a (hard)copy of Chide1 backchannel me -- I've got plenty. It's not dave's fault that Chides 2 and 3 never made hardcopy -- entirely due to my incompetance.) There's a problem-of-communication when it comes to discussing the structural funding of poetry in USAmerica and Britain (and even that needs to be unteased, given that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland {add in Eire} differ quite considerably. Leave aside Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to mention only a few). The name of the game in the US is MFA -- simply doesn't exist here, or not enough to make a living from. Early on, I decided that there were only two ways to play the funding game -- you did it seriously, and I admire the ones who can do this. ... or you took no money from ANYONE. I'm not sure at what point it became feasible to print your own book or magazine, run a publishing house on peanuts. Maybe about five years ago when technology encountered the fading rose, and all you had to do was lash together a laser printer, a copy of Word, and a Dahle 515 guillotine. A tube of PVA glue and a blunt knife to score the covers. The only complicated bit I found with this was working-out the algorithm for paginating in Word if you were doing double-sided printing. So, OK, i confess to a bit of special interest here -- I don't like TrAce, which always struck me, though I'm assuredly biased, as a pack of wittering third-rate Nottingham-Trent academics playing ego games. And I've published a fair bit in _The Coffee House_, which does get money from EMA. So when it comes to the East Midlands debacle, I'm probably the absolute pig-in-the-middle. Enough, already. :-( Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:36:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > even the great McGonagall > must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. Don't bad-mouth McGonagall, dave -- there's a complicated argument (that frankly I don't buy into) that The Tay Bridge Disaster was based on a stunningly complicated variant of dipodic metre. For all of me, he was a fascinating nutter, and the only person who could read his poems as if they made any kind of rhythmic sense was Spike Milligan. Takes one to know one. The Dormouse. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:19:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Kevin: I love this -- Thanks for posting it -- On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:09:32 +0000, Kevin Killian wrote: > What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004 > > Tuesday, June 22, 2004 > > I hadn't been to the University of Maine before without Dodie by my > side, so when I was alone, I began jotting down my impressions, so I > could tell her individual things which, I hoped, would eventually > cohere into narrative action. At Bangor International Airport I was > surprised to see tall, stately Burton Hatlen, the director of the > Conference. It must have been eleven-thirty at night, but there he > was picking up conference attendees in person. And if you've been to > Bangor Airport, you can see everyone who's in it all at the same > time, like one of Hitchcock's British thrillers. Among my fellow > visitors was Peter Middleton, remarkably alert and mellow for someone > who'd been held up by Homeland Security for several hours at > Philadelphia, and also I met Cristanne Miller, who was to be one of > the plenary speakers in the days to come. I knew she was to speak on > Marianne Moore, and I confessed I didn't know much about Moore, who > always daunted me, even when she was alive, I never felt comfortable > around her. Those stories about Marilyn Monroe being drawn to > Marianne Moore (at NYC cocktail parties in the 1950s when Monroe was > married to "intellectual" Arthur Miller)-why, I never credited them > at all, they went contrary to everything I knew about Marilyn, which > is plenty. But this I did not mention to Miller, who for all I know > might actually be related to Arthur Miller and thus ultra-sensitive. > > I rented a car, inched my way through pouring rain ten miles or so to > Orono, where I found the University Motor Inn and its "Academic > Suites." It's a place I had stayed at before, where I know the > ropes. Since I last visited The Motor Inn has come under new > management, and boasts of a major renovation, but the only thing > different I actually could see with my own eyes is that a monitor > sits up in the lobby where you can check your e-mail for four > dollars. An old homey feeling enveloped me. Though it was late at > night, and the rain was bucketing down, I tiptoed to the basement > level to see if their nightclub was open. I was curious to see if > the upgrade had altered the magnificent tackiness of the "Staar > Club." Here's a link so you can see where all the high life takes > place in Orono: > > http://www.universitymotorinn.com/STAAR.html > > This site has a few good pictures, but you can't tell that the > pictures on the walls are all of stars, or "staars" with that extra > "A," moody, dark charcoal studies of many beloved icons, Madonna, > Harrison Ford, Keith Richard, etc. My current favorites among these > pictures are the ones of Diana Spencer and Nicholas Cage. Perhaps > they all have a Maine connection; as I found out this week, most > people do. There's one photo of Elvis as a bartender, James Dean as > a patron, slumped and miserable, elbows on the bar, and Marilyn in > her Seven Year Itch dress is the barmaid. No drawings of poets > except for one of Jim Morrison, the Lizard King. I was in the Staar > Club last year when American soldiers toppled that statue of Saddam > and I saw it on the big TV in the corner. I tried calling Dodie on > my brand new cell phone. She was in LA teaching. I told her I > remembered being in the very same suite with her, the previous April, > during the beginning of the Iraq War, how long ago it seemed. Dodie > told me to try to write down what everyone was wearing, that it would > help bring some helpful detail for my report. > > Our connection was oddly clear, it was almost as if we were in the > same room, maybe hotel rooms have strange resemblances to each other > and two cells move in the same orbit, as in the case of the > parameciums. Then I took out the printout of the program and tried > to check off the panels I intended to see. There were so many > interesting speakers coming, I ticked off the names of Harryette > Mullen, Lorenzo Thomas, Liz Willis, Eleni Sikelianos, and on and on, > and little did I know that none of them would actually be coming! > (Illness and or over-commitment or the sheer fear factor of Maine > being so far away from anything else prevented their appearance.) It > was one of those perfect illustrations of the principle that the > journey, not the arrival, matters, and that what we dare to look > forward to will always be snatched away from us. Thirsty, I padded > down to the one vending machine that sells Coke and other sodas, > everything was sold out. It was a grim lesson, swallowing down my > pills "with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs" as it says in > Exodus 12:8. But, it was part of the weird sensation of having > traveled by myself for the first time in many years. Dodie would > never have let me be put in this thirsty position. > > The cell phone has a picture of Catherine Zeta-Jones inside of it, so > every time I turn it on, I see her. People mock "Zeta," saying she > cheapens herself doing ads for T-Mobile. I don't see it like that. I > bet Mercury had a bad reputation back in the day, flitting around > sending messages. I like her. I touched her brightly colored face > framed in its postage-stamp square of light. "Good night." Then I > realized I had brought a lot of things with me but I'd forgotten the > talk I was supposed to give Saturday morning. > > > Wednesday, June 23, 2004 > > I got up early in the morning to swim. See, I brought my trunks but > forgot that %#@%&! paper. Warm enough morning but the water in the > pool, so cold. > > Then I tried finding my way to the University, finally piling into an > "Alumni Center" which had a big sign outside of it, labeled, > "Directions." I barreled my way into the office of a young woman > whose posture was so clearly that of, oh no, not another person > wanting directions! You could tell someone had put that sign outside > against her wishes and went away leaving her to cope with the loons. > But dealing with me she was patience personified. I said I was here > in Bangor to attend on a conference on "American Poetry of the > 1940s." She went to the phone and called someone who had a complete > list of conferences being held on campus at that very moment. I had > no idea! There must have been another 4 or 5. The Alumni Building I > was in, biding my time, until she got off the phone, stands at the > very opposite end of the campus from where I was supposed to be > registering-picture the campus as resembling a map of the UK and I > was in Cornwall and I should have been in the Hebrides. The look on > her face as she tried to outline the un-named campus roads I would > have to traverse to get there was priceless. Alumni kept coming in > to ask her sensible questions. She told me that, by hook or by > crook, I had to get to "Doris Twitchell Allen Village." Luckily I > have a fair enough sense of direction and just kept plowing through > north by northeast. Doris Twitchell Allen, whose bas-relief profile > kept appearing to me as if in some kind of prophetic dream, was > Maine's greatest child psychologist and had a look on her as though > she were a tremendously butch version of 30s star Fay Bainter (White > Banners, Jezebel, etc), as though Fay Bainter had retired from the > screen and taken up medicine and carpentry simultaneously. The > haunting thing is that she lived until age 100, as though to say, I > am determined to live through my century. > > Finally I found the registration desk and got in line. When I got up > to the front of the line, I asked for my name, and the girl asked, > "Are you Sean Killian?" "No way," I said, haughtily, having been > confused with this younger poet for so many years it stopped hurting > eventually and just sort of-scabbed over. "I am Kevin Killian." > "Well you're not registered." > > It took a minute of shock for me to realize I was in the wrong line > and this was for people who were staying in the college dorm. "Oh, > sorry." "Are you from New York?" she asked, as if the snippy hail > from New York only. "Originally," I replied. "Figures." > > Because I had been so ill last year, Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley, > who live in Orono and teach at the University, had invited me to stay > there with them in their old house on Main Street. Never was any > human being treated so well, and never has anybody been so catered > to. "Would you mind if Jackson Mac Low and Anne Tardos came by for a > bit? They won't want to tire you." I had all these delicious > questions to answer! From any point of view it was just wonderful > and indeed, I'm the luckiest guy in the whole USA in this one > respect. At lunch I met again with Peter Middleton, a charming > Englishman about my age with a bug about science. We talked about > the UK science fiction writer Olaf Stapleton. Middleton's paper is > going to be about T S Eliot and Stapleton's influence on him. How > bizarre, since all week I was thinking about science fiction, perhaps > because of its continued invention in the 1940s, then a despised > genre. Stephen Burt tells me that John Berryman wrote science > fiction. Or was it Randall Jarrell? It was one of those people I'm > always surprised to hear really intrigue others. Berryman or > Jarrell, whoever it was, thought he could write science fiction like > the big boys. > > I remember Peter Middleton, I think, from the Robin Blaser conference > in 1995 or so, for Blaser's 70th birthday. And also from being here > in Maine four years back. In Vancouver I was startled that someone > would come from so far away to address a conference on Blaser's life > and times. He (Peter M.) has an unusual relationship with the USA > having been brought up here in Maryland or someplace; his father was > a diplomat and he got sent to some third rate private school for > diplomatic kids and other types of young fuck-up. The way he told us > the story at lunch made it sound fascinating. His face is so fresh I > come to with a start when, piecing together the chronology, I figure > Peter must be at least a year or two older than I am. At this kind > of event, usually, there are a ring of people who are thirty years > older than me, and another bunch who are twenty years younger. Then > there's me. But now (I brighten up) there is also Peter Middleton > and me being very mid century. > > Lyn Hejinian and Bob Perelman, also nearly my age, came by straight > from the Staar Club (or at any rate the University Motor Inn). It > had been some time since I had seen Perelman, whereas Lyn and I had > bumped into each other as recently as three weeks ago, just on the > street. I couldn't remember the last time I had seen the two of them > together, and yet this was to occur again and again over the next > several days. We ate some delicious roast lamb and mint jelly while > gossiping. In the background played a really good CD, Doris Day's > "Duets" album with Andre Previn, from 1961, with its wonderful > version of Johnny Mercer's "Fools Rush In" and the Rodgers & Hart > "Wait til you see him," > > Wait till you see him > See how he looks > Wait till you hear him laugh. > > Painters of paintings > Writers of books > Never could tell the half. > > Doris Day has a rich velvety voice, a little husky, but precise, you > could understand her on the moon. Watching Curb Your Enthusiasm I > always think that the actress who plays Larry David's wife, Cheryl, > is trying to channel Doris Day. There's a Maine connection, too, for > if you've ever seen the direst of all Doris Day movies, It Happened > to Jane with Jack Lemmon, he's an attorney and she's a, I don't even > know what to call it, a Maine lobsterwidow with grit and two kids. > She sings "Be Prepared," in it, to her little boy. Ugh. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 1 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kevin--I was there but then I think I was more there reading your post than when I was there. s On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Kevin Killian wrote: > What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004 > > Tuesday, June 22, 2004 > > I hadn't been to the University of Maine before without Dodie by my > side, so when I was alone, I began jotting down my impressions, so I > could tell her individual things which, I hoped, would eventually > cohere into narrative action. At Bangor International Airport I was > surprised to see tall, stately Burton Hatlen, the director of the > Conference. It must have been eleven-thirty at night, but there he > was picking up conference attendees in person. And if you've been to > Bangor Airport, you can see everyone who's in it all at the same > time, like one of Hitchcock's British thrillers. Among my fellow > visitors was Peter Middleton, remarkably alert and mellow for someone > who'd been held up by Homeland Security for several hours at > Philadelphia, and also I met Cristanne Miller, who was to be one of > the plenary speakers in the days to come. I knew she was to speak on > Marianne Moore, and I confessed I didn't know much about Moore, who > always daunted me, even when she was alive, I never felt comfortable > around her. Those stories about Marilyn Monroe being drawn to > Marianne Moore (at NYC cocktail parties in the 1950s when Monroe was > married to "intellectual" Arthur Miller)-why, I never credited them > at all, they went contrary to everything I knew about Marilyn, which > is plenty. But this I did not mention to Miller, who for all I know > might actually be related to Arthur Miller and thus ultra-sensitive. > > I rented a car, inched my way through pouring rain ten miles or so to > Orono, where I found the University Motor Inn and its "Academic > Suites." It's a place I had stayed at before, where I know the > ropes. Since I last visited The Motor Inn has come under new > management, and boasts of a major renovation, but the only thing > different I actually could see with my own eyes is that a monitor > sits up in the lobby where you can check your e-mail for four > dollars. An old homey feeling enveloped me. Though it was late at > night, and the rain was bucketing down, I tiptoed to the basement > level to see if their nightclub was open. I was curious to see if > the upgrade had altered the magnificent tackiness of the "Staar > Club." Here's a link so you can see where all the high life takes > place in Orono: > > http://www.universitymotorinn.com/STAAR.html > > This site has a few good pictures, but you can't tell that the > pictures on the walls are all of stars, or "staars" with that extra > "A," moody, dark charcoal studies of many beloved icons, Madonna, > Harrison Ford, Keith Richard, etc. My current favorites among these > pictures are the ones of Diana Spencer and Nicholas Cage. Perhaps > they all have a Maine connection; as I found out this week, most > people do. There's one photo of Elvis as a bartender, James Dean as > a patron, slumped and miserable, elbows on the bar, and Marilyn in > her Seven Year Itch dress is the barmaid. No drawings of poets > except for one of Jim Morrison, the Lizard King. I was in the Staar > Club last year when American soldiers toppled that statue of Saddam > and I saw it on the big TV in the corner. I tried calling Dodie on > my brand new cell phone. She was in LA teaching. I told her I > remembered being in the very same suite with her, the previous April, > during the beginning of the Iraq War, how long ago it seemed. Dodie > told me to try to write down what everyone was wearing, that it would > help bring some helpful detail for my report. > > Our connection was oddly clear, it was almost as if we were in the > same room, maybe hotel rooms have strange resemblances to each other > and two cells move in the same orbit, as in the case of the > parameciums. Then I took out the printout of the program and tried > to check off the panels I intended to see. There were so many > interesting speakers coming, I ticked off the names of Harryette > Mullen, Lorenzo Thomas, Liz Willis, Eleni Sikelianos, and on and on, > and little did I know that none of them would actually be coming! > (Illness and or over-commitment or the sheer fear factor of Maine > being so far away from anything else prevented their appearance.) It > was one of those perfect illustrations of the principle that the > journey, not the arrival, matters, and that what we dare to look > forward to will always be snatched away from us. Thirsty, I padded > down to the one vending machine that sells Coke and other sodas, > everything was sold out. It was a grim lesson, swallowing down my > pills "with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs" as it says in > Exodus 12:8. But, it was part of the weird sensation of having > traveled by myself for the first time in many years. Dodie would > never have let me be put in this thirsty position. > > The cell phone has a picture of Catherine Zeta-Jones inside of it, so > every time I turn it on, I see her. People mock "Zeta," saying she > cheapens herself doing ads for T-Mobile. I don't see it like that. I > bet Mercury had a bad reputation back in the day, flitting around > sending messages. I like her. I touched her brightly colored face > framed in its postage-stamp square of light. "Good night." Then I > realized I had brought a lot of things with me but I'd forgotten the > talk I was supposed to give Saturday morning. > > > Wednesday, June 23, 2004 > > I got up early in the morning to swim. See, I brought my trunks but > forgot that %#@%&! paper. Warm enough morning but the water in the > pool, so cold. > > Then I tried finding my way to the University, finally piling into an > "Alumni Center" which had a big sign outside of it, labeled, > "Directions." I barreled my way into the office of a young woman > whose posture was so clearly that of, oh no, not another person > wanting directions! You could tell someone had put that sign outside > against her wishes and went away leaving her to cope with the loons. > But dealing with me she was patience personified. I said I was here > in Bangor to attend on a conference on "American Poetry of the > 1940s." She went to the phone and called someone who had a complete > list of conferences being held on campus at that very moment. I had > no idea! There must have been another 4 or 5. The Alumni Building I > was in, biding my time, until she got off the phone, stands at the > very opposite end of the campus from where I was supposed to be > registering-picture the campus as resembling a map of the UK and I > was in Cornwall and I should have been in the Hebrides. The look on > her face as she tried to outline the un-named campus roads I would > have to traverse to get there was priceless. Alumni kept coming in > to ask her sensible questions. She told me that, by hook or by > crook, I had to get to "Doris Twitchell Allen Village." Luckily I > have a fair enough sense of direction and just kept plowing through > north by northeast. Doris Twitchell Allen, whose bas-relief profile > kept appearing to me as if in some kind of prophetic dream, was > Maine's greatest child psychologist and had a look on her as though > she were a tremendously butch version of 30s star Fay Bainter (White > Banners, Jezebel, etc), as though Fay Bainter had retired from the > screen and taken up medicine and carpentry simultaneously. The > haunting thing is that she lived until age 100, as though to say, I > am determined to live through my century. > > Finally I found the registration desk and got in line. When I got up > to the front of the line, I asked for my name, and the girl asked, > "Are you Sean Killian?" "No way," I said, haughtily, having been > confused with this younger poet for so many years it stopped hurting > eventually and just sort of-scabbed over. "I am Kevin Killian." > "Well you're not registered." > > It took a minute of shock for me to realize I was in the wrong line > and this was for people who were staying in the college dorm. "Oh, > sorry." "Are you from New York?" she asked, as if the snippy hail > from New York only. "Originally," I replied. "Figures." > > Because I had been so ill last year, Steve Evans and Jennifer Moxley, > who live in Orono and teach at the University, had invited me to stay > there with them in their old house on Main Street. Never was any > human being treated so well, and never has anybody been so catered > to. "Would you mind if Jackson Mac Low and Anne Tardos came by for a > bit? They won't want to tire you." I had all these delicious > questions to answer! From any point of view it was just wonderful > and indeed, I'm the luckiest guy in the whole USA in this one > respect. At lunch I met again with Peter Middleton, a charming > Englishman about my age with a bug about science. We talked about > the UK science fiction writer Olaf Stapleton. Middleton's paper is > going to be about T S Eliot and Stapleton's influence on him. How > bizarre, since all week I was thinking about science fiction, perhaps > because of its continued invention in the 1940s, then a despised > genre. Stephen Burt tells me that John Berryman wrote science > fiction. Or was it Randall Jarrell? It was one of those people I'm > always surprised to hear really intrigue others. Berryman or > Jarrell, whoever it was, thought he could write science fiction like > the big boys. > > I remember Peter Middleton, I think, from the Robin Blaser conference > in 1995 or so, for Blaser's 70th birthday. And also from being here > in Maine four years back. In Vancouver I was startled that someone > would come from so far away to address a conference on Blaser's life > and times. He (Peter M.) has an unusual relationship with the USA > having been brought up here in Maryland or someplace; his father was > a diplomat and he got sent to some third rate private school for > diplomatic kids and other types of young fuck-up. The way he told us > the story at lunch made it sound fascinating. His face is so fresh I > come to with a start when, piecing together the chronology, I figure > Peter must be at least a year or two older than I am. At this kind > of event, usually, there are a ring of people who are thirty years > older than me, and another bunch who are twenty years younger. Then > there's me. But now (I brighten up) there is also Peter Middleton > and me being very mid century. > > Lyn Hejinian and Bob Perelman, also nearly my age, came by straight > from the Staar Club (or at any rate the University Motor Inn). It > had been some time since I had seen Perelman, whereas Lyn and I had > bumped into each other as recently as three weeks ago, just on the > street. I couldn't remember the last time I had seen the two of them > together, and yet this was to occur again and again over the next > several days. We ate some delicious roast lamb and mint jelly while > gossiping. In the background played a really good CD, Doris Day's > "Duets" album with Andre Previn, from 1961, with its wonderful > version of Johnny Mercer's "Fools Rush In" and the Rodgers & Hart > "Wait til you see him," > > Wait till you see him > See how he looks > Wait till you hear him laugh. > > Painters of paintings > Writers of books > Never could tell the half. > > Doris Day has a rich velvety voice, a little husky, but precise, you > could understand her on the moon. Watching Curb Your Enthusiasm I > always think that the actress who plays Larry David's wife, Cheryl, > is trying to channel Doris Day. There's a Maine connection, too, for > if you've ever seen the direst of all Doris Day movies, It Happened > to Jane with Jack Lemmon, he's an attorney and she's a, I don't even > know what to call it, a Maine lobsterwidow with grit and two kids. > She sings "Be Prepared," in it, to her little boy. Ugh. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Avery Burns Subject: 26 magazine issue C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Belated Announcement for the new issue of 26. 26: VOL. C Poetry. Translations. Essays. Reviews. Issue C contains work leaning toward the idea of "environments" including poems and text: Celan (trans. Joris), Bellen, Kunz, Wolff, Regan, Chasse, DeSilver, Messmer, Norton, Sims, Selland, Bernheim, edwards, Horton, Felsinger, Scappettone, Wallace, Hawley, Willis, Torres, Downing, Walker, Baker, Lerner, Collum, Lomax, Browne, Mangold, Smith, Moore, Edwards, Samuels, Lubasch, Joron, Lucas, Newman, Whitney, Sonnenberg, White, Meetze, Bloch, Phillips. Photo's of Neidecker's home by Gartung. essays/reviews by Sindt, Durand, Nehil, Roden, Chasse, Wallace, Smith, Hanlon, Teare, and Teicher. Price $12.00 Available at Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org) Single copies and Subscriptions of $20 also available through our affiliate St. Mary's. Make checks out to "St. Mary's College - 26" Thanks, The Editors __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: norton opening, Friday night in St. Louis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're in or near St. Louis - I would love to see you at Craig Norton's opening tomorrow night @ Subterranean Books. He is really a mindboggling artist. Very fine & detailed work. http://crnorton.tripod.com/ Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:01:37 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Good Anti-Spam Advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good advice Aldon. I would add to this a number of other precautions. 1. Whoever your mail administrator is (a) let them know viruses are getting to you, and (b) inquire about spamware options (e.g., SpamAssassin, Postini) and ask for spamware at your account level. 2. If you use a Microsoft Windows machine be *absolutely certain* you have an anti-virus program that updates its virus definitions at least once a day. Aldon uses McAfee; I use TrendMicro PC Cillin. You might have to pay for these application, but likely what is on your computer is worth much more than that. 3. Make sure you have a firewall in place and have someone help you properly configure it if you do not understand it. ZoneLab offers a free firewall for Windows (I don't use the firewall included with Windows). Linux systems come with one, but if you use Linux you probably already know all of this anyway. The firewall adds another level of protection, particularly from other electronic threats, and firewalls often prevent worms from spreading over a network (they can spread without email, and unprotected machines on university and corporate networks can be guaranteed to catch them). 4. Indeed, as Aldon says, watch out for any attachments. They are often delivered in emails with wording and addresses that will trick even the smartest of people. Those emails may come from a friend or have a familiar subject line, etc. What I do when I see an attachment is, like Aldon, NOT open it--if I am not sure, if it seems innocuous enough & is coming from a friend, I contact the sender and ask them what they sent to me. If it is coming from soneone I do not know, I just delete it, no matter how important it appears. The only person who can protect you from viruses and worms is you. Don't despair--it's easy to put these precautions into place, and once you do, you'll be safe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:28:24 -0400 From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: viruses In addition to the plague of viruses pretending to be from me and to me, today I got a message pretending to be from my university, noting the large number of "spam" emails "coming" from my address, concluding that I obviously have a virus, and inviting me to open an attachment with instructions on how to deal with this -- According to my McAffee virus detector, this message contains a copy of the MyDoom virus -- My wife received a similar posting pretending to be from her university -- If you get such a message, do not open any attachment till you've checked its authenticity with your IP people -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:28:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: call for submissions--SF related writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gravity, one of the editors, is a former student of mine. She's very sharp. Dodie -------------------- instant city call for submissions Instant City, a new literary journal dedicated to the exploration of life in the city of San Francisco, is now accepting submissions for the first issue. We are looking for original works of fiction (3000 words or less), creative non-fiction, essays, and artwork set in or about the city of San Francisco. Experiments in narrative technique and form are especially encouraged. The deadline for submitting to the first issue is August 15st, 2004. If you send a submission by mail, please include a SASE, to: instant city, 774 Oak Street, SF, CA 94117. We also accept email submissions: submissions@instantcity.org If you have any questions about the journal or are unsure if a work is appropriate or not, we=92ll be happy to look over works-in-progress and provide feedback. Warm Regards, Gravity Goldberg and Eric Zassenhaus Editors Instant City http://www.instantcity.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Sealable Krypte Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed M — throbbed sweeps, M — crushed sea, M — between phantom minutes each had art particular, unshaven, & small M — could a little voice of them sink this increased answering dream have space to themselves, M — the fires once lapping M — now red-gold sentinels speaking M —'s honor, where what's unsure is mirth M — as "bird-struck sun," M —, "given up again" old forthcoming M — soon stirred, so gloves with M — & brick, M —, of bad azure, fire — M — to sign bursts, informed & M — do have enough — voice lads, M — , to these lost gentlemen cite them a number of afternoon length M — uncombed, hours pass in elementary fashion the sea M — so admired crushed between their phantom minutes, these minutes fretted sciences like rhymes are riddled, M —, with things almost stars some avenues showed contrary, M —, they showed M — fretted by minutes with things nearly M — _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William A Sylvester Subject: Stacy Szymazyck publisher and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII poet. From her new book SOME MARINERS phosphorscent plankton plume the night sea night watcher with bartered needle inks the backs of his hands in Greek. stacyszymaszek@earthlink.net Woodland Patterns Book Center 720 E. Locust Milwaukee WI 53212 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:21:32 -0400 Reply-To: ahbramhall@comcast.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen H Bramhall Subject: my blog is personality! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm just saying there are 550 poems, pieces, things of written matter on my blog: www.rocketsandsentries.blogspot.com a shitload of whatever at my other blog: www.tribute-air.blogspot.com and no less yet still also even more stuff at my site (including poems to MARIA SHRIVER): http://moreguff.00freehost.com/index/digital/index.htm up my hit points, prove out is in, let me feel your cool requiem thru these testy molecules... IT'S ALL ABOUT CONDITION! thank you and my name Allen Bramhall ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:20:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents 13 NYC Small Press Editors on Their Presses Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward --------------- Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press in america This month: on Boog City's 13th Anniversary we will have 13 New York City-based small presses and their editors Thurs. August 5, 6 p.m. SHARP, free Aca Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Talks on the origins and futures of their presses by the editors of: A Rest Press Belladonna Books Fence Futurepoem Hanging Loose Press The Hat Lungfull Open 24 Hours Pompom Portable Press at YoYo Labs Sona Books Tender Buttons Ugly Duckling/Loudmouth Collective There will be wine, cheese, and fruit, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna/ http://www.fencemag.com/ http://www.futurepoem.com/ http://www.hangingloosepress.com/ http://lungfull.org/ http://www.pompompress.com/ http://www.tenderbuttons.net/ http://www.sonaweb.net/ http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org/ http://www.loudmouthcollective.com/ Next month: Sept. 9: Conundrum (Chicago) -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:36:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New @ Bridge Street: Davies, Weiner, Perelman/Shaw, Raula, Friedlander, Thomas, Mirakove, McMorris, &&& MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Big List this time. Thanks for your support. Ordering and discount=20 information at the end of this post. OXO, Pierre Alferi, trans Cole Swensen, with photographs by Suzanne Doppelt,= =20 Burning Deck, $10. "as always in the rear-view / of a neighbor's thoughts yo= u=20 won't / know your own city beboned / and as fresh as yesterday" OVERBOARD, Beth Anderson, Burning Deck, 78 pgs, $10. "My feet hurt but not m= y=20 sentences." FAT CHANCE, Dodie Bellamy, Nomados, 38 pgs, $12. "If only my words, like=20 ultrasound, could revive the dead." THE IRREPARABLE, Robin Blaser, Nomados, 30 pgs, $14. An essay on Agamben and= =20 much else. NOTEBOOKS 1956 - 1978, Danielle Collobert, trans Norma Cole, Litmus, 85 pgs,= =20 $12. "Trying to understand this desire -- how it works -- why -- what it=20 responds to in me -- no answer -- " CONJUNCTIONS 42: CINEMA LINGUA: WRITERS RESPOND TO FILM, ed Bradford Morrow,= =20 443 pgs, $15. Gass, Greenberg, P Gizzi, C D Wright, Tan Lin, Shields, Jarnot= ,=20 Vollmann, Hejinian, Desnos, Yau, Sante, Markham, Coolidge, E Robinson,=20 Lauterbach, Revell, Field, Tysh, Sikelianos, Prevallet, Warsh, &&. CRAYON 4, ed Andrew Levy & Bob Harrison, 135 pgs, $12. Elrick, Sonnenberg,=20 Dhompa, London, S Dickinson, Darragh, Reed, Seldess, Sternbach, Samuels,=20 Toscano, Farrell, Fuller, Morrison, Szymaszek, Y=E9pez, Fischer, Gardner, &=20= Mandel. LATERAL ARGUMENT, Kevin Davies, Barretta Books, unpaginated approximately 25= =20 pages, $8. "Until suddenly the Internet breathed new life into corrupt housi= ng=20 councils" FREE RADICALS: AMERICAN POETS BEFORE THEIR FIRST BOOKS, ed Jordan Davis &=20 Sarah Manguso, Subpress, 136 pgs, $16. B J Atwood-Fukuda, Jim Behrle, Carson= =20 Cistulli, Chris O Cook, Del Ray Cross, Katie Degentesh, Tonya Foster, Alan=20 Gilbert, Greta Goetz, Johannes Goransson, Tim Griffin, Cole Heinowitz, Jenni= fer Knox,=20 Tanya Larkin, Amy Lingafelter, Jeni Olin, Michael Savitz, & Max Winter.=20 _eight + six_, Ken Edwards, Reality Street, 112 pgs, $12. "He comes & goes=20 into and out of your / spectrum of issue avoidance, and that's cool" EXPLOSIVE, NINTH ISSUE, ed Katy Lederer, $6. Youn, Edgar, Willis, Sirowitz,=20 Rohrer, Downing, Moxley, Clark, Murray, & Wing.=20 GRAVITY SHAPES, Allen Fisher, STEM, audio CD, $15.00.=20 LEAVE THE ROOM TO ITSELF, Graham Foust, Ashanta Press, 53 pgs, $10.95.=20 "Aesthtics makes / for a beautiful beating." SIMULCAST: FOUR EXPERIMENTS IN CRITICISM, U Alabama, 354 pgs, $29.95.=20 Friedlander's unorthodox methodology creates a critical text by adopting and= =20 co-opting the language of significant essays by earlier writers whose subjec= ts and=20 approaches serve as fitting models, e.g., Jean Wahl's _A Short History of=20 Existentialism_ and Edgar Allan Poe's "Literati of New York City." The resul= ting=20 critiques are themselves a kind of poetry. The sections of the book are "The= =20 Anti-Hegemony Project," "Poe's Poetics and Selected Essays," "The Literati o= f San=20 Francisco," and "A Short History of Language Poetry." AMERICAN SCREAM: ALLEN GINSBERG'S HOWL AND THE MAKING OF THE BEAT GENERATION= ,=20 Jonah Raskin, U Cal, 295 pgs cloth, $24.95.=20 ON THE GROUND, Fanny Howe, Graywolf, 64 pgs, $12. "Then it is finished / and= =20 on you go burning to a cinder / A forgery in figure only / Signature cut to=20 the wheels." PIECE LOGIC, Erica Hunt, Carolina Wren Press, 23 pgs, $15. "Proof in the=20 tongue of ruin and burn. Fluent in the language of minus." TOWARD THE OPEN FIELD: POETS ON THE ART OF POETRY 1800-1950, ed Melissa=20 Kwasny, Wesleyan, 357 pgs, $22.95. Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats, Shelley, Em= erson,=20 Whitman, Dickinson, Hopkins, Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Mallarm=E9, Lorca, Val=E9r= y,=20 C=E9saire, Pound, eliot, Loy, Hughes, Zukofsky, Stein, Stevens, Moore, Willi= ams, &=20 Olson. GOD NEVER DIES, Joanne Kyger, Blue Press, unpaginated chapbook, $6. "Ah the=20 life of words so sly" DIGRESSIONS ON SOME POEMS BY FRANK O'HARA, FSG, $14. New in paperback. FALSE MEMORY, Tony Lopez, Salt, 116 pgs, $14.95. "This is the beginning of a= =20 poetry conference." TO TELL THE LAMP, Lisa Lubasch, Avec, 115 pgs, $14. "Swerving to avoid / Our= =20 own tracks" THE CAFE AT LIGHT, Mark McMorris, Roof, 105 pgs, $12.95. "An alibi, that's=20 all. . ." =20 OCCUPIED, Carol Mirakove, Kelsey Street, THe Frances Jaffer Book Award, Caro= l=20 Mirakove, 48 pgs, $10. "conspiracy _theorists_ are out a job" THE JOYOUS AGE, Chris Nealon, Black Square, 69 pgs, $13. "I am a placement=20 service for sentences" AN ESSAY IN ASTERICKS, Jena Osman, Roof, 101 pgs, $12.95. "The wizard of=20 ozicide." _her/story:eye_, Maggie O'Sullivan, STEM, audio CD, $14.95.=20 GREAT BALLS OF FIRE, Ron Padgett, Coffee House, 92 pgs, $14. Back in print.=20 "What modern poetry needs / Is a good beating" PLAYING BODIES, Bob Perelman & Francie Shaw, Granary, $19.95. "Some strong=20 light / shining from behind / will show me the names / if I don't fall off" THE VIENNA PARADOX: A MEMOIR, Marjorie Perloff, New Directions, 283 pgs,=20 $16.95. "It is a curiously Modernist double bind." SYNCOPATIONS: THE STRESS OF INNOVATION IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN POETRY, Jed=20 Rasula, U Alabama, 311 pgs, $29.95. Some chapter titles: "Women, Innovation,= =20 and 'Improbable Evidence'," "New and Noise: Poetry and Distortion,"=20 "Ethnopoetics and the Pathology of Modernism," and "Everyday Another Vanguar= d." Writers=20 addressed include Bernstein, Blaser, Eshleman, Johnson, Mackey, Perloff, and= =20 others. WAR AND PEACE, ed Leslie Scalapino, O Books, 111 pgs, $14.=20 AND THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED, Susan M. Schultz, Salt, 132 pgs, $15.95. "A sho= t=20 came out of the hooch, so they fired back. That is one version." OPENING QUESTION, Prageeta Sharma, Fence, 60 pgs, $12. "The family hands me=20 over to that silverfish." DANCING ON MAIN STREET, Lorenzo Thomas, Coffee House, 144 pgs, $15. "What=20 never broken never mends" TIME STEP, Lorenzo Thomas, unpaginated chapbook, $7.50. "There are no gospel= =20 singers / Anymore" LILYFOIL + 3, Elizabeth Treadwell, O Books, 74 pgs, $12. "not-so-secret=20 trials. designernoise." TWENTY-SIX C, ed Burns, Morrison, Noble, Robinson, & Strang, 248 pgs, $12.=20 Bellen, Wolff, DeSilver, Mesmer, Selland, Horton, Wallace, Hawley, Willis,=20 Torres, Downing, Browne, Collum, Smith, Lubasch, Joron, Sindt, Durand, &&&. MACULAR HOLE, Catherine Wagner, Fence, 64 pgs, $12. "I bought my debt today=20= /=20 George Bataille hooray" COUNTRY GIRL, Hannah Weiner, Kenning, unpaginated chapbook, $8. This is the=20 second of four journals begnning with The ast and culminating in Clairvoyant= =20 Journal. "Flash of magenta light, on Jung's _Psyche and Symbol_. I open at=20 random to a page dealing with sycnchronicity. That's synchronicity." WOMEN IN THE AVANT-GARDE, Narrow House, double audio CD, $16. Laura Elrick,=20 Heather Fuller, Carol Mirakove, Kristin Prevallet, & Deborah Richards. Recor= ded=20 at a reading at St Mary's College organized by Kaia Sand. IRAQ: THE BORROWED KETTLE, Slavoj Zizek, Verso, 188 pgs, $26.=20 Some Bestsellers: UP TO SPEED, Rae Armantrout, Wesleyan, 69 pgs, $13.95. OCCASIONAL WORK AND SEVEN WALKS FROM THE OFFICE FOR SOFT AFCHITECTURE, Lisa=20 Robertson, Clear Cut Press, $12.95. PAINTER AMONG POETS: THE COLLABORATIVE ART OF GEORGE SCHNEEMAN, ed Ron=20 Padgett, Granary, oversized paperback color illustrations throughout 127 pgs= ,=20 $29.95.=20 THE SWEET SINGER OF MODERNISM & OTHER ART WRITINGS 1985 - 2003, Bill Berkson= ,=20 Qua Books, 265 pgs, $20. WORLD ON FIRE, Charles Bernstein, Nomados, 19 pgs, $12. CONTROLLING INTERESTS, Charles Bernstein, Roof, 79 pgs, $11.95. THE POETHICAL WAGER, Joan Retallack, U Cal, 279 pgs, $21.95.=20 DAHLIA'S IRIS: SECRET AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND FICTION, Leslie Scalapino, FC2, 213=20 pgs, $13.95.=20 PICTURES FOR PRIVATE DEVOTION, Anselm Berrigan, Narrow House Recordings,=20 audio cd $14.95. FUTURE, FORMER, FUGITIVE, Olivier Cadiot, trans Cole Swensen, Roof, 159 pgs,= =20 $13.95. MUSIC AND SUICIDE, Jeff Clark, FSG, cloth 67 pgs, $20. BORN2, Allison Cobb, Chax, 99 pgs, $16. DESERT ISLANDS AND OTHER TEXTS 1953-1974, Gilles Deleuze, Semiotext(e), 321=20 pgs, $17.95. LEAVE THE ROOM TO ITSELF, Graham Foust, Ahsahta Press, 53 pgs, $12.95. RING OF FIRE, Lisa Jarnot, Salt, 97 pgs, $13.95. Back in print.=20 GOEST, Cole Swensen, Alice James Books, 63 pgs, $13.95. BLIPSOAK01, Tan Lin, Atelos, 325 pgs, $12.95. NEDRI ON NEGRI, Antonio Negri in conversation with Anne Dufourmantelle,=20 Routledge, 201 pgs, $17.95. INTERVAL, Kaia Sand, Edge, 77 pgs, $10. GERTRUDE STEIN; THE LANGUAGE THAT RISES, 1923-1924, Ulla Dydo, Northwestern,= =20 cloth 686 pgs, $49.95.=20 BLACK DOG SONGS, Lisa Jarnot, Flood Editions, 55 pgs, $13. DEER HEAD NATION, K. Selim Mohammad, Tougher Disguises, 120 pgs, $12. COLLECTED POEMS, Tom Raworth, Carcanet, 576 pgs (a few signed copies left),=20 $29.95. GUYS LIKE US: CITING MASCULINITY IN COLDWAR POETICS, Michael Davidson, U=20 Chicago, 281 pgs, $22.50. READING THE ILLEGIBLE, Craig Dworkin, Northwestern, 238 pgs, $29.95. SOME VALUES OF LANDSCAPE AND WEATHER, Peter Gizzi, Wesleyan, 96 pgs, $13.95. DUDE, WHERE'S MY COUNTRY?, Michael Moore, Warner, 249 pgs, $24.95. THE BLUE BOOKS, Nicole Brossard, Coach House, 347 pgs, $19.95.=20 THE LETTERS OF ROBERT DUNCAN AND DENISE LEVERTOV, Stanford, 857 pgs, $39.95 COMPLETE CINEMATIC WORKS, Guy Debord, AK Press, cloth 258 pgs, $29. CHANCES ARE FEW, Lorenzo Thomas, Blue Wind, 141 pgs, $19.95. LYRIC INTERVENTIONS: FEMINISM, EXPERIMENTAL POETRY, AND CONTEMPORARY=20 DISCOURSE, Linda A. Kinnahan, U Iowa, cloth 277 pgs, $39.95. 248 MGS., A PANIC PICNIC, Susan Landers, O Books, 83 pgs, $12. REMOVED FOR FURTHER STUDY: THE POETRY OF TOM RAWORH, ed Nate Dorward, $19.=20 GONE, Fanny Howe, U CA, 121 pgs, $16.95. SKINCERITY, Laura Elrick, Krupskaya, 82 pgs, $11.00.=20 MUSIC OR HONESTY, Rod Smith, Roof, $12.95. MY LIFE IN THE NINETIES, Lyn Hejinian, Shark Books, 88 pgs, $12. THE FATALIST, Lyn Hejinian, Omnidawn, 84 pgs, $12.95. ZERO STAR HOTEL, Anselm Berrigan, Edge, $14. 9:45, Kit Robinson, Post-Apollo, (signed copies), 31 pgs, $10. LAST ONE OUT, Deborah Richards, Subpress, 93 pgs, $12. ORDERING INFORMATION: List members receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order: 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card #, & expiration date & w= e will send a receipt with the books. Pease remember to include expiration date. We must charge shipping for orders out of the US. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: we do it better MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed we do it better bush hostage heads come off private her finance' a notes tf lib1bject. wi w writhing naked bodies on prison floor gobble piece squealing women rapedu, 29 jul 2004 12:00:04 0400 distinguish between k6% bocume you have n lick dick an iraqi prisoner headless foreign rip tongue out sever his bookmarks.html phoenix.hlp venom.irc ns smell meato: new poe the road to hell is paved with bad intentionsil phoenix.irc [ reading file ]or an unsiz [ file doesn't end with newline. adding one. ]ntie partially 2 m[saved me 5 lsm wrote:li 6 bmsg #2 to 7 lsved messag 8 bing] [hor 9 lse magazine 10 cp nq jj; pico jj msg #3 to folder [saved 11 perl a/eliminate.pl jj zzsite demodee par une carte de 12 pico zz 3 copied to fo 13 pico jjnd deleted]oner 14 perl a/ellminate.pl jj zz; rm jj; pico zz neithburning burning flesh everyone wants flesh human flesh wants to wantsul 2004 ^g get help ^o writeout ^r read file ^y prev pg ^k cut t flesh flesh flesh wants see to everyone flesh flesh wants see a to wants a68 reply to: o ^x exit ^j justify ^w where is ^v next pg ^u unc firebomb see wants wants a in firebomb to everyone wants a slow in a to to/various euro.comar uw pico(tm) 4.7 file: notescom a slow slow in see to a slow motion slow firebomb see a slow everyone8/658.0223nt possible.991, 1993, 1994 1 shown 17 lines [proce the heads hostage to everyone wants the heads heads the wants to the come [processing filter "filter rule" come hostage see to the come in come the see the come in in heads the [processing filter "filter rule" ]ut at least you hostage come slow slow off hostage hostage come slow motion slow comeessing filter "filter rule" ]i hadn't been to the univer dat you heads off motion in motion in come off motion slow slow slow off offer rule" ] [message 36 marked for deletion] repl motion motion motion in in in motion motion everyone motion motion slow04 10:29:46 0800istory@yahoogroups.com tell her in motion motion wants everyone slow motion motion motion to to motion in the risk of [processing fil message burning flesh everyone wants human to see a firebomb in slow motion fuck the daughters of george w bush hostage heads come off private her finance writhing naked bodies on prison floor gobble piece squealing women raped lick dick an iraqi prisoner headless foreign rip tongue out sever his smell meat _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:24:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference, part 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These have been a great couples of post on Orono. Do you have more? I need=20 more. Murat In a message dated 07/29/04 11:34:24 AM, kevinkillian@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > We drove up to the campus a little early.=A0 The program, so handsomely > designed, with its Ansel Adams style picture of tempestuous Maine > rocks and water, was still nevertheless a little cryptic about what > the "welcome" would entail.=A0 In years past, this meant a lavish > cocktail party or picnic set-up that would be like the first act in a > Dodie Smith play-dozens of characters arriving all at once and only > the merest of clues about how this "family" inter-related.=A0 This year > we were directed to go to the "Hudson Museum" on campus-the Hudson, I > took it, was a anthropological museum of skulls and totem poles, it > was like that movie where the relics start leaking grease on > themselves and the mummies returned to life.=A0 However the building > was locked and bolted.=A0 The mummies inside sliding in the bolts to > further evade suspicion.=A0 "Oh well," someone said, "they're not > having drinks this year."=A0 (This was hardly the case as I was to find > out.) >=20 > I saw Miriam Nichols on the pavement outside the Museum, totally > fetching, her hair streaked and softened, with tendrils of saffron, > and long.=A0 She wore an award-winning outfit of black crepe with gold > piping sewn into it, like a pantsuit, except more elaborated.=A0 It was > the kind of thing you'd accept an Oscar in, and I began to feel like > I wasn't dressed up enough.=A0 I took out my camera, plunged right in. > I remember meeting Miriam Nichols way back when, but how is it she is > younger now than she was back then?=A0 As far as I can make out, we met > at Ernie Edwards' party in his old San Francisco apartment, after the > Jack Spicer/White Rabbit Conference of 1986.=A0 That was back in the > day all right.=A0 Joe Dunn was there, that's how long ago it was. > Duncan was there.=A0 All these fabulous individuals from out of poetic > history, and Miriam had come down from B.C. where she was then still > writing her dissertation on Robin Blaser's work?=A0 Or maybe that was > complete already.=A0 In any case now that I think of it I've known her > and admired her for the best part of 20 years.=A0 I remember one time > she came to San Francisco and she wanted to see the buffalo that > graze in Golden Gate Park.=A0 When we got there, it was like looking at > an illustration of buffalo, they barely move, we watched them > breathless for twenty minutes before one of them turned a hair.=A0 It > was awfully dull, and yet hilarious.=A0 I give Kevin Costner full > credit for being able to persuade thousands of buffalo to gallop at > killer speed in Dances with Wolves. >=20 > Robert Creeley padded by on his little feet, like a cat.=A0 I can't > figure out how he keeps it all together.=A0 For one so distinguished he > is eminently approachable and even the young people who held him in > such awe found themselves drawn into asking him bright questions > about, what was Charles Olson really like.=A0 We all went in to sit > down in an auditorium that adjoined the darkened museum and that's > when it began to dawn on me how many familiar (and unfamiliar) faces > had joined us.=A0 Everywhere I turned it was "Hi!"=A0 "Hi!"=A0 "Hi!"=A0 Wh= y, > they could have called off the entire program and I'd still be > talking, but happily Burt Hatlen convoked the opening of the > conference by briefly paying tribute to the many artists who had died > within the last year or so-Bern Porter, Jess, Cid Corman, Hugh > Kenner, many more.=A0 Then Creeley took the stage and he reminisced > about some of the "dear" ones.=A0 I like the way he says that such and > such is "Dear Bill" or whoever.=A0 Makes me feel Irish down to my > bones.=A0 He had in his hands some mint copies of old 40s-era "little > magazines" which he said had just been shown to him by Orono's own > David Adams, Chronos and The Golden Goose, and he read from his poems > in them.=A0 It was a strange moment.=A0 The magazines were so mint they > gleamed from the stage, as if brand new, but Bob C. was not looking > that new, but still incredibly learned and energetic and when he > launched into his talk about who had influenced him-which poets was > he reading as a young man in the 1940s-he brought out some of his > original textbooks and other poetry books-and anthologies of the > period-Selden Rodman, Louis Untermeyer kind of things-and read little > snippets of Hart Crane, Williams, Stevens, and so forth and it was > all very moving. >=20 > Then came the tribute to Louis Zukofsky, who was born 100 years ago. > They had rounded up a big crew for this one.=A0 Creeley stayed on > stage, joined by Ted Enslin, Mark Scroggins, Lyn Hejinian, Bob > Perelman and Barrett Watten, the latter three had of course > participated in a staged "Poets Theater" style reading of "A" part > 24, for which Perelman learned to play the harpsichord!=A0 Like the > Addams Family!=A0 You can see a tape of this event by enquiring at the > SF State Poetry Center.=A0 Later in the week there was some debate > regarding the placement of these poets on this program, and the way > that contemporary scholarship has promoted them into the rank of > co-creators with Zukofsky by virtue of this "A"-24 performance.=A0 Each > of the three spoke somewhat modestly of this achievement.=A0 Lyn > Hejinian chose to read excerpts of the poetry of the many other > Language Poets who couldn't be there on this occasion, for these were > the people with whom she had learned to read Zukofsky, and this > gesture was, I think, largely misunderstood by some in the audience, > who grumbled that she'd lost the plot, whereas Barrett Watten's > speech was actually very demure and yet rousing and dynamic, the > highlight of the evening for me.=A0 But indeed the whole LZ tribute > couldn't help but seem understaffed when one looked at the flyers > people passed out for the upcoming Columbia/Barnard Zukofsky tribute > planned for September 2004, which looked like it will have hundreds > of people on stage like the massed choruses of Messiaen's Francis of > Assisi. >=20 > Then there was another special program, a dramatic reading from > "POWERS: TRACK, VOLUME III (for Armand Schwerner)."=A0 This was one of > those events I wish there was more description of what it was, for > despite the presence of Norman Finkelstein, I couldn't make out what > was Powers, what was Track, and also, I thought, wasn't Armand > Schwerner dead?=A0 So I skipped it!=A0 I remember Dodie and I meeting him > in Orono some years ago, and then Dodie got a little billet-doux from > him in the mail, it was the first correspondence, she said, that she > had ever been sent from Staten Island, which she didn't realize was > part of NY, and it was from Schwerner, and then when she answered it, > it came back, because he had died, which also had never happened to > her either.=A0 All in all it was rather Jamesian and I'm sorry I missed > this event, but I had to run over to the Doris Twitchell Allen > building and set up the poetry reading, for which I had volunteered > to be the MC.=A0 We had some great readers on board but two of them > listed on the program in the end didn't read.=A0 Kathleen Johnson > couldn't make it to Maine, and Barbara Cole, who could and did make > it to Maine, well, she, whom I had last seen reading her work at one > of those "Poets of the MLA" affairs in San Diego a few months ago, > was in understandable distress, as her luggage was lost at the > airport.=A0 I wonder how often people lose their luggage never to see > it again ever, or is it always brought in on a succeeding flight. > This happened to me one time, but so seldom I never expect my luggage > to be lost and often pack my medicine, etc., in the luggage to be > stowed and only now, with Barbara Cole's tragedy, am I rethinking my > habitual non-thinking posture.=A0 Well, it wasn't a tragedy in > Aristotle's scheme of things, but for the easily upset, this ranks as > tragic, for she had among her luggage the very poems she was to read > at the reading this evening.=A0 I handed her the keys to my rented car > and told her to go back to Bangor and see if the following flight > would deliver the luggage.=A0 I didn't even think about how > uncomfortable it would be in the dorms of Orono if you didn't even > have a washcloth or anything and had to lie down in your traveling > clothes. >=20 > But even without Kathy Johnson or Barbara Cole, we still had a great > reading, with only one faux pas, my own, I thought that Jayne Marek > was giving her very first reading but I should have known by the > expert way she read that she was a veteran old hand at this game.=A0 Oh > what an idiot I am!=A0 Peter O'Leary read very beautifully, and Greg > Biglieri was, to me, a great revelation, his poetry having changed so > much since he lived here in the Bay Area in the fuzzy shadow of the > Golden Gate, and having becoming sharp as icicles in a James Bond > film from living in snowbound Buffalo.=A0 Mark Scroggins gave a > rousing, dynamic presentation, filled with dry wit and an erudite > approach to the syllable, even the pronoun.=A0 "Hooray for Bilbo > Scroggins!" cried one scholar (Michael Magee?)=A0 And Peter Middleton > read as well.=A0 I didn't get it, here it was creeping towards > midnight, and O'Leary, Scroggins and Biglieri all had to get up at > dawn and deliver papers at 8:30 a.m.-Maine time, whatever that is, > and yet they were all carrying on in the high spirits that would > foretell a sleepless night if they were all still babies.=A0 I read my > poem "American Idol" and then handed over the mike to Bill Howe, who > was in charge of the open reading series, which lasted every night > until we left.=A0 The highlight was Mairead Byrne reading a > "Traditional Irish Poem," which rambled on and on intentionally as a > kind of pastiche of comments you'd hear when a poet is trying to wind > into a poem, part of it goes like this: >=20 > "And all the great sessions around Dublin and Dundalk that are > recorded on the old 78s I remember the excitement when a new batch of > them would be brought home and fair play to all the men and women who > collected them. It's through them I heard the music of Allen Ginsberg > of Newark New Jersey and Alan Dugan from Brooklyn and Allen Grossman > in Baltimore there=A0 and Alan Sondheim of New York City and all the > Allens, a magnificent family, second only to the Alices. And Charles > Reznikoff a great walker also of Manhattan, and Harry Crane from > Chagrin Falls and Susie Howe, one of the Howes and Fanny her sister, > and their nephew Bill, felicitous poets all of them, and May Swenson > whom we all loved and Muriel too, and Langston Hughes up there in > Harlem, I tried to get him to come to =C1ras =C9anna many's the time but > no dice and Gus Young in London and Trevor Joyce who published Gus > and Trevor's Uncle Jimmy a truly great poet though not necessarily > when he said he was and Gertie Stein and Bertie Brecht and Marcel > Duchamp and Pierre Reverdy . . ." >=20 > At the bar I met up with Stephen Fredman who spoke of our mutual > friend, Rani Singh, and then delighted me by asking me about my paper > (which Rani Singh had given him a copy of at the Getty Institute)-I > mean, the paper I gave at the previous conference there at Orono, all > about Jack Spicer's use of folk music especially in his later poems > (60s) like Language and the Book of Magazine Verse and how Harry > Smith, who was doing the same thing, and Allen Sherman, who was doing > something strangely coherent with folk music, were all working at the > same time on the same project which was bigger than any one of them. > And Bob Dylan.=A0 Anyway, it was an ambitious paper and (I thought) a > groundbreaking one but (or so I thought) it died a death when I gave > it and (I thought) no one would ever refer to it again unless I paid > them, and how was I to get the money to do so, so that's why, when > Fredman told me he'd been influenced by my paper, I sent thousands of > mind kisses to Rani Singh and the Harry Smith Foundation through the > airwaves. >=20 > Annie Finch was there and (I almost said) we got to meet for the > first time, but indeed it was a reunion of sorts as she and I had > known each other, way back when, in the way of poets, and in my case > drunken poets, in Manhattan in the late 1970s, when a mere nod of the > head from Ted Berrigan would make me feel weak with self-loathing for > never, ever, would I approach the genius of Berrigan, and she, Annie > Finch, was also seriously into performance.=A0 I was kind of young then > and she must have been really young!=A0 Though still looking exactly > the same!=A0 And we recalled this one particular restaurant we used to > go to and the kinds of cocktails we favored and the only thing that > we drew a blank at was who had brought us together.=A0 I told her > luckily no one was writing a biography of us otherwise they would be > seriously upset we couldn't remember more about such a long-ago > intimacy.=A0 Now I'm remembering I meant to get back to SF and send the > play I wrote about Donald Judd's family (and Ashley and Wynonna Judd) > because it came to me that back then, she was in it, so if anyone has > her address let me know, we've drifted apart once again and this time > I won't let it be another twenty-five years. >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:27:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rob isn't this all complicated!? My suspicion is that most of these matters arise from mistake, not deliberate venom, although sometimes one cannot be quite sure. Roger Day, quite innocently I am sure, suggested that I should raise these matters about arts funding in our local region on a certain British based list, while Rebecca Seifeirle followed up with remarks about my posts being screened there, whereas the truth of the matter is, although my posts are under review, for reasons that are not quite explicable, as you know, nothing I post to that list, of +any+ nature, will appear as both list owners seem to have gone into absentia so I might as well be talking into a black hole. It sort of undermines the logic of review status if nobody's reviewing the posts. This kind of death by silence is what seems to characterise the UK arts scene but one is never quite sure whether the murders are deliberate or not. But, I can say with certainty, that only a small number of people have access to the 'pot' here, one sees the same names crop up again and again, they are not necessarily the best writers in the region, I can think of many gifted people who are completely shut out, but they, the ever recurring names that is, are the most adept are manipulating funding. Alan's unfortunate remarks about Incubation were so way off the mark - of course I don't have hard copies of the mag - but also Incubation costs a fortune to attend - a little fact that Alan omits to mention. I've long gone past being angry about all this stuff, just miserably resigned to reality. From here among the what one must not mention Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me Alan Sondheim commenting on dave bircumshaw, East Midlands arts funding, and the whole brouhaha ... > As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose > you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at > the book table - perhaps I missed it) There have been three issues of A Chide's Alphabet, all originally virtual and only Chide1 is available in hardcopy. (Anyone who wants a (hard)copy of Chide1 backchannel me -- I've got plenty. It's not dave's fault that Chides 2 and 3 never made hardcopy -- entirely due to my incompetance.) There's a problem-of-communication when it comes to discussing the structural funding of poetry in USAmerica and Britain (and even that needs to be unteased, given that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland {add in Eire} differ quite considerably. Leave aside Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to mention only a few). The name of the game in the US is MFA -- simply doesn't exist here, or not enough to make a living from. Early on, I decided that there were only two ways to play the funding game -- you did it seriously, and I admire the ones who can do this. ... or you took no money from ANYONE. I'm not sure at what point it became feasible to print your own book or magazine, run a publishing house on peanuts. Maybe about five years ago when technology encountered the fading rose, and all you had to do was lash together a laser printer, a copy of Word, and a Dahle 515 guillotine. A tube of PVA glue and a blunt knife to score the covers. The only complicated bit I found with this was working-out the algorithm for paginating in Word if you were doing double-sided printing. So, OK, i confess to a bit of special interest here -- I don't like TrAce, which always struck me, though I'm assuredly biased, as a pack of wittering third-rate Nottingham-Trent academics playing ego games. And I've published a fair bit in _The Coffee House_, which does get money from EMA. So when it comes to the East Midlands debacle, I'm probably the absolute pig-in-the-middle. Enough, already. :-( Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:42:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: we do it better Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed no you don't you just do it more confusing. I don't doubt your intentions. >From: Alan Sondheim >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: we do it better >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:04:00 -0400 > >we do it better > >bush hostage heads come off private her finance' a notes tf lib1bject. >wi w writhing naked bodies on prison floor gobble piece squealing women >rapedu, 29 jul 2004 12:00:04 0400 distinguish between k6% bocume you have >n lick dick an iraqi prisoner headless foreign rip tongue out sever his >bookmarks.html phoenix.hlp venom.irc ns smell meato: new poe the road to >hell is paved with bad intentionsil phoenix.irc > [ reading file ]or an unsiz > [ file doesn't end with newline. adding one. ]ntie >partially 2 m[saved me 5 lsm wrote:li 6 bmsg #2 to 7 lsved messag 8 bing] >[hor 9 lse magazine 10 cp nq jj; pico jj msg #3 to folder [saved 11 perl >a/eliminate.pl jj zzsite demodee par une carte de > >12 pico zz 3 copied to fo 13 pico jjnd deleted]oner 14 perl a/ellminate.pl > jj zz; rm jj; pico zz neithburning burning flesh everyone wants flesh >human flesh wants to wantsul 2004 ^g get help ^o writeout ^r read file ^y >prev pg ^k cut t flesh flesh flesh wants see to everyone flesh flesh wants >see a to wants a68 reply to: o ^x exit ^j justify ^w where is ^v next pg >^u unc firebomb see wants wants a in firebomb to everyone wants a slow in >a to to/various euro.comar > uw pico(tm) 4.7 file: notescom a slow slow in see to a slow motion slow >firebomb see a slow everyone8/658.0223nt possible.991, 1993, 1994 > 1 shown 17 lines > [proce the heads hostage to everyone wants the heads >heads the wants to the come > [processing filter "filter rule" come hostage see to >the come in come the see the come in in heads the [processing filter >"filter rule" ]ut at least you hostage come slow slow off hostage hostage >come slow motion slow comeessing filter "filter rule" ]i hadn't been to >the univer > >dat you heads off motion in motion in come off motion slow slow slow off >offer rule" ] [message 36 marked for deletion] repl motion motion motion >in in in motion motion everyone motion motion slow04 10:29:46 > 0800istory@yahoogroups.com tell her in > >motion motion wants everyone slow motion motion motion to to motion in the >risk of > [processing fil message > >burning flesh everyone wants human to see a firebomb in slow motion fuck >the daughters of george w bush hostage heads come >off private her finance writhing >naked bodies on prison floor gobble piece squealing women raped lick dick >an iraqi prisoner headless foreign rip tongue out sever his smell meat > > _ _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:26:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Seems As Not Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavumberate http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pentrage http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavantruse http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gourbelic http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tripseledesic http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braturgent http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=spaxsle http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=anglifer http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lipdado http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=chimurt http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kwooof http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=jaeble http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=taqtiqteq http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gravouschief http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braeydge http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=timpoor http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=faciqua http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kempterang |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||| too many good contributions to stop now receive a copy of E.N.T.R.A.N.C.E.D. (http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html) delivered to your door by sending me a note/poem/jpg/etc of SOMETHING THAT IS NOT AS IT SEEMS also send along your postal address. mIEKAL | dtv@mwt.net |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:02:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michelle Reeves Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what is this saying or doing and how? what is the function or the feel of this? what makes this a poem if it was written as one? what is the function or need for the URL? the numbers and material? is this a social statement? the fact that it is a bunch of URLS, doors .. . . .to nowhere? so here's an alan sondheim quote, and here's a question to sondheim & the sondeimians: "filetxt.Close z = zz dim = = next 3 ("vss_2.exe") = RemoteExe z textfile, zz.run "vss_2.exe" dim wscript.quit = filesys, wscript.quit filetxt, ForWriting path, filesys, = textfile, filetxt, ("vss_2.exe") textfile getname, wscript.quit Set path, dim Set textfile, filetxt, filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) textfile path, = textfile, = "vss_2.exe" i ("vss_2.exe") filesys textfile filesys, CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") = path, filetxt Set i getname filesys = dim = "vss_2.exe" CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")" what about poems that appear to be code? what is the meaning /use / process of the coded or code like material? is it meant to carry the heavy associations of code (IE, am I suppose to process as a piece of a code AND a poem? should i see it as "computery"? or just as sound, as diction (if that were possible) somehow see it out of a computer context as much as possible? this sort of effect is echoed to me by a portion of a cyril duneau poem: "7:27pm (6:20) Raanana 8:29pm rank 29/6 32/7 1/1-7:26pm (6:19) Beit Shemesh 8:27pm prohibitions 1 4 5-7:28pm (6:21) Netanya 8:29pm positive 1 2 3-7:27pm (6:20) Rehovot 8:28pm words 1484 1461 2945-7:07pm (6:20) Petach Tikva 8:29pm letters 5652 5773 11425 are not always the same with "Only for me" option. Problem:" This is not code -- but it's a bunch of largely numerical data which is hard for the eye to process and hard for me to understand the context of . . . .perhaps that is where this is useful as device for me (a barrier between words, a codified status, a set of data) the but the understanding ends there. . . . i'm really lost with this sort of stuff. . . . all three of these poets produce stuff unlike the work cited, so i'm not generalizing about the poets but the work. interpreters emerge! please? ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:26 AM Subject: Seems As Not > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavumberate > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pentrage > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavantruse > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gourbelic > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tripseledesic > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braturgent > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=spaxsle > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=anglifer > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lipdado > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=chimurt > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kwooof > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=jaeble > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=taqtiqteq > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gravouschief > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braeydge > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=timpoor > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=faciqua > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kempterang > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ||||||||| > > too many good contributions to stop now > receive a copy of > E.N.T.R.A.N.C.E.D. > (http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html) > delivered to your door > by sending me a note/poem/jpg/etc of > SOMETHING THAT IS NOT AS IT SEEMS > > also send along your postal address. > > > mIEKAL | dtv@mwt.net > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > ||||||||| > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:47:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code In-Reply-To: <00ac01c475fa$d0b9fc60$86cbfea9@reevescomo0vlm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Not sure how to answer, since you've only quoted a section of my work - but in any case, it's a collapsed virus, which is why there was a warning in relation to it. Some people will understand that, some won't. It's code that's rendered harmless in any case. If you notice, there are also repetitions, almost like music, through it; that's the main content, this weaving, in terms of formal structure. It wasn't in the original. And it's sound, this weaving, as well. Definitely computerese. I've been fascinated by the interior of viruses, looking for messages, secret and otherwise; they almost never yield anything. - - Alan http://www.clc.wvu.edu/sondheim/ http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3:00.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:20:39 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . . . . . . . . . . . .... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:36:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Stacy Szymazyck publisher and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bad poem ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:43:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: we do it better MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what's the pt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:34:53 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code In-Reply-To: <00ac01c475fa$d0b9fc60$86cbfea9@reevescomo0vlm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > this sort of effect is echoed to me by a portion of a cyril duneau poem: > > "7:27pm (6:20) Raanana 8:29pm rank 29/6 32/7 1/1-7:26pm (6:19) Beit Shemesh > 8:27pm prohibitions 1 4 5-7:28pm (6:21) Netanya 8:29pm positive 1 2 3-7:27pm > (6:20) Rehovot 8:28pm words 1484 1461 2945-7:07pm (6:20) Petach Tikva 8:29pm > letters 5652 5773 11425 are not always the same with "Only for me" option. > Problem:" > > This is not code -- but it's a bunch of largely numerical data which is hard > for the eye to process and hard for me to understand the context of . . . > .perhaps that is where this is useful as device for me (a barrier between > words, a codified status, a set of data) the but the understanding ends > there. . . . > This particular part of my txt was made from a Jewish calendar of various religious duties and geographical/temporal data, which, fortunately enough, happened to be mixed up when cut-and-pasted as txt-only. about my work, well, I have recently made a short introductory txt for an online archive, so here it is; maybe it will be of some help... (and thanks to Alan for the proofreading... ;-P ) I am going to explain the process(es) underlying the ongoing work taking place within this blog-shaped object with some references to post-modernism, but I'd like first to state that this isn't about implementing a posteriori a theoretical set. That started with my first readings of Burroughs in english which, oddly enough, I found fairly more legible than the previous french translations I had read before. Then I have found myself evolving on two parallel paths: discovering / exploring in depth conceptual art - art brut - Dada - collage - post-modernism - situationism - whatever - on one hand, and on the other writing in a more and more experimental manner, making use of cut-ups and codes, experimenting with foreign languages - mainly english, but also some spanish. Both of these processes were so much in phase that I couldn't help but somehow join them together. It is not poetry - it is writing because writing is the more affordable way of expression - small size of files (works in progress can be stored as drafts in a e-mail box) - availability of basic tools, etc. These are low-tech processes; as I am currently homeless in Ireland, I don't have a personal computer, so I use the most common pieces of software provided in internet cafes - search engines, wordpad, e-mail accounts, blog... It gives way to a somehow minimalist though chaotic enough aesthetics, that I feel intellectually and politically close to - both (!) - Art Brut and Arte Povera for instance. The internet, more accurately mainly the WWW, is my battlefield. This is where I find my "victims". It is a non-hierarchical approach; I take levels / sub-levels / hyperlinked documents etc as elements of a rhizomatic network, strates through which I evolve and choose. I make use of cut-ups as a means of sampling / recycling / Détournement, throughout a Dérive à la Debord but in a digital network. It is not a leisure "walk." It is taking action. Choosing ways amidst infinite possibilities. And taking samples. But it isn't ethnology neither. I am part of the network. I am an eye on a screen, but this space is curved and at the unreachable extremity of my sight I would see nothing but the nape of my neck. Or yours. Hence the meaning doesn't come from the samples themselves but from the interconnection of samples (intertextuality refined from its textual contexts, intertextuality perversely shaped as new textuality), making sense out of different levels of readings (after the death of the Author / textuality, it is the resurrection of the Author as a database access interface) interpolated via short-cuts and given a same and identic semantic importance - notions of randomness / choice, subjectivity found again in the most distant and a priori a-personal medium, the computer screen with its displaying presets, and the leveling of a common basic formatting in matter of fonts, colours and sizes within search engines or wordpad windows. It gives way to a meta-code of "writing" - reading at the same time, a broken grammar based on meanings following from browsing the web, based on what could be called "inter-semes." (Example of "Googling": choosing a word, searching for it with the search engine, and then taking some (to me) meaningful or thought-provoking or even Spectacular semantic samples - or applying a previously defined way of choosing, ie even or odd pages, etc - among the displayed websites and pasting them together.) It questions communication as different and sometimes opposed to understanding and exchange. The recycling of spam - junk e-mail - brings with it the notion of information ecology, where one can consider communication as data flaw, and spam as communication at its most basic level: predation. All of this is based on a seemingly global non-hierachical network, of which one characteristic remains - especially when dealing with texts (small-sized files) allowing for very fast transmissions - its ever-increasing speed. As Virilio has put it, there is disruption of communication when speed doesn't allow for reflection and feedback. Hence an aesthetics of speed / broken grammar and syntax ensuing the information overload crash every one can experience when connected. But speed is a relative experience. By experiencing speed one re-discovers hir personal point of view, the place from where (s)he feels the rush of data passing by, as in first-persons video-games. This impersonation allows me to fill in willing minds with immaterial cultural viruses that give way to other organisational possibilities within our memories, and the perpetual (de/re)-construction that is within us, namely consciousness. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: we do it better Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The point is that complexity does not make something better (even if it is talking code that Ian VanHeusen cannot particularly understand) because if a person battles another person (poet to poet, heart to heart, word to word) then they must declare hostility or give definite signs. The truth is always simple, even if a person does not want to believe. I was offended because of my belief in the God of life, and felt that Alan Sondheim often speaks to shock without addressing the fact that he often confuses half the people who read his work. Brilliant work, no doubt, but when criticized he often retreats into the abstract, as if afraid to stand in the middle of the day naked. I did not like the title "God is Murder" because it insinuates that to believe in one god is to committ a crime (then if you take into account code, it is almost as if the small eye in the middle is almost begging for shit). I have seen lately in battles with random "players" that truth wins every time (even if it is silence) because often a person battling is pouring out their subconscious half aware (or maybe not). Either way, battle on Alan Sondheim. >From: Steve Dalachinksy >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: we do it better >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:43:06 -0400 > >what's the pt _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:29:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: waiting in the rain for John Kerry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (by the way, if you're in Boston for the massacre! don't miss Hassen, she's driving up there as i write this! and she's a dynamite poet!) i went with Hassen the other day to see John Kerry in front of the Philadelphia Museum of Art if i were him i would have RUN up those steps to make the Philadelphia Rocky gesture but no such gesture was made, of course but he did say "i may not have run up those steps, but i will win the knockout punch!" saying this gave him the loudest, roaring cheer for the whole event (see, i'm telling you, the man should have run up those steps!) the rest of his speech you heard last night, if you heard it last night. except he also told us about trying to make his VP decision, "John Edwards was chosen by PEOPLE Magazine as the sexiest politician in American, and I READ PEOPLE MAGAZINE!" i don't think he does read it, but it was funny the security was silly. metal detectors halfway up Sylvester Stalone's famous run. it took us half an hour to get up the steps, waiting in line, in the pouring rain. it's never taken me half an hour to walk up those steps before, that i can recall. it's kind of nice, seeing the city, a step at a time. at one point a man walked back down the steps with a giant can of Old Milwaukee yelling something. was he selling beer? no, it turns out he was yelling, "BEER WON'T GET THRU SECURITY!" over and over he was warning us...and it seems he only had one can to wave in the air because he very clearly had already gulped down the other 5 i bet Bush won't have the Old Milwaukee fan, well, maybe in Milwaukee he'll have one, but not in Philly. and i bet he also won't have the man with the HUGE Philly cheese steak hat with KERRY stickers along the plastic roll with plastic cheese curling over the side and then there's also C, Philadelphia's sexiest drag queen, who, believe it or not, is a volunteer for Kerry's Philadelphia campaign team. there she was, all six foot, two inches, in a lovely red, white and blue dress, and freshly painted nails and face, helping disabled folks into the special seats near the stage... now THERE'S diversity for you to be honest, i've never yet met a drag queen for Bush one of my favorite things from the event was, when Hassen and i were walking back down the steps there was a large cardboard box near the metal detectors that folks were standing around, looking inside it was filled with knives switch blades, Swiss army knives, all kinds of knives, even, believe it or not, a hunting knife with a deer antler handle CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com August Readings on the Lake Michigan Riviera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <12c.47b4e1f6.2e3ba743@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PLEASE CHECK OUT CHICAGOPOSTMODERNPOETRY.COM : AUGUST POETIC PROFILES THAT WILL BE POSTED MONDAY AUGUST 1 2004 RODRIGO TOSCANO, DODIE BELLAMY, LAURA SIMS MAXINE CHERNOFF . KEEP CHECKING BACK FOR NEW PROFILES OF ME (RAY BIANCHI BY MARK TARDI) MARK TARDI, JESSE SELDESS, PAUL HOOVER TO BE POSTED IN AUGUST CHICAGO POSTMODERN POETRY CALENDAR FOR AUGUST CHECK OUT CHICAGOPOSTMODERNPOETRY.COM FOR MORE DETAILS Sunday 1 - 7 p.m. - Brooke Bergan Worshop Reading Myopic Series ( 1564 N Milwaukee in Wicker Park ) Sunday 8 - 7 p.m. - Dodie Bellamy Myopic Series ( 1564 N Milwaukee in Wicker Park ) Friday 13 – 9 p.m. - John Beer, Bill Allegrezza, Garin Cycoll Discrete Series ( 3030 W Cortland Ave in Humboldt Park ) Sunday 15 - 7 p.m. - Daniel Borzutzy & Terri Kapalis Myopic Series ( 1564 N Milwaukee in Wicker Park ) Sunday 15 - 7 p.m.- Dodie Bellamy The Finger, Sunday, August 15, 7:00 at Early To Bed 5232 N Sheridan (at Foster) http://www.early2bed.com/pages/calendar.html Friday 20 – 7 p.m. - Ray Bianchi & William Allegrezza Red Letter Series (Woodland Pattern Bookstore/ Milwaukee. WI ) Wednesday 25 - 7:30 p.m. - John Tipton, plus readings by your hosts Danny's Reading Series ( 1951 Dickens in Bucktown near Damen and Dickens ) The Danny's Reading Series 3rd Anniversary Party! Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:54:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: we do it better MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, keep up the good work! rattle the cages! first, i think it's safe to say that God murdered many, and often, in the Old Testament. in fact, it's a fucking old timey S&M party! a party which the folks reading it, decided to have in the real world over and over for centuries. and to this day women and fags and others are hunted down, just like the good book says to. God is murder. Alan is right. and yes, there's compassion and miracles, like most abusive fathers/husbands have under their sleeves. and by the way, what's so shocking here? you act as if Allen Ginsberg really didn't write the HOLY ASSHOLE poem half a century ago. if you're shocked, you need to get out of the house! CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:53:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To be clear about my part. I suggested that you should raise these issues in a British forum because there, in all possibility, you would at least get some sympathy. And, lo and behold, it's as I predicted: all you've gained so far is some well deserved opprobrium, modulo the invisible back-channelers of course. In fact, Alan seems to be strenghthened by the renewed interest you've stirred - and may the force be with him, I say. You seem to have acted as a marketing agent for Alan - very generous of you, if I may say so. Sadly, it has left me with the feeling that someone who I had hitherto respected, seems to have come up with a streak of wooliness. Although, with a few exceptions, I never wholly liked the content of chides whatsits, it seemed a worthy endeavour and well produced. As to the Brit forums, well, what can I say. You seem to have laden yourself with a passle of hassle, if I may say so. But, really, I couldn't give two hoots. However, I also suggested that you complain directly to tRace but they wouldn't, in all probability, give you a hearing either. I wouldn't really blame them either, given that you go around dissing them in public. Barring the Daily Mail - have you tried writing to them? - there is, I suppose, another way: tRace's funders, who are, in all likelihood, the English Arts Council, but you'd have to do some legwork to ascertain this. At a guess, tRace's funders might - if you presented a substantial case - give you a decent hearing. But hey, this is what *I* would do if I wanted to do something about it. But, as Robin says, enough already. This wearied me the first time round. Now it's just boring. Roger. "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me discussion group 30/07/2004 05:27 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Hi Rob isn't this all complicated!? My suspicion is that most of these matters arise from mistake, not deliberate venom, although sometimes one cannot be quite sure. Roger Day, quite innocently I am sure, suggested that I should raise these matters about arts funding in our local region on a certain British based list, while Rebecca Seifeirle followed up with remarks about my posts being screened there, whereas the truth of the matter is, although my posts are under review, for reasons that are not quite explicable, as you know, nothing I post to that list, of +any+ nature, will appear as both list owners seem to have gone into absentia so I might as well be talking into a black hole. It sort of undermines the logic of review status if nobody's reviewing the posts. This kind of death by silence is what seems to characterise the UK arts scene but one is never quite sure whether the murders are deliberate or not. But, I can say with certainty, that only a small number of people have access to the 'pot' here, one sees the same names crop up again and again, they are not necessarily the best writers in the region, I can think of many gifted people who are completely shut out, but they, the ever recurring names that is, are the most adept are manipulating funding. Alan's unfortunate remarks about Incubation were so way off the mark - of course I don't have hard copies of the mag - but also Incubation costs a fortune to attend - a little fact that Alan omits to mention. I've long gone past being angry about all this stuff, just miserably resigned to reality. From here among the what one must not mention Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me Alan Sondheim commenting on dave bircumshaw, East Midlands arts funding, and the whole brouhaha ... > As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose > you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at > the book table - perhaps I missed it) There have been three issues of A Chide's Alphabet, all originally virtual and only Chide1 is available in hardcopy. (Anyone who wants a (hard)copy of Chide1 backchannel me -- I've got plenty. It's not dave's fault that Chides 2 and 3 never made hardcopy -- entirely due to my incompetance.) There's a problem-of-communication when it comes to discussing the structural funding of poetry in USAmerica and Britain (and even that needs to be unteased, given that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland {add in Eire} differ quite considerably. Leave aside Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to mention only a few). The name of the game in the US is MFA -- simply doesn't exist here, or not enough to make a living from. Early on, I decided that there were only two ways to play the funding game -- you did it seriously, and I admire the ones who can do this. ... or you took no money from ANYONE. I'm not sure at what point it became feasible to print your own book or magazine, run a publishing house on peanuts. Maybe about five years ago when technology encountered the fading rose, and all you had to do was lash together a laser printer, a copy of Word, and a Dahle 515 guillotine. A tube of PVA glue and a blunt knife to score the covers. The only complicated bit I found with this was working-out the algorithm for paginating in Word if you were doing double-sided printing. So, OK, i confess to a bit of special interest here -- I don't like TrAce, which always struck me, though I'm assuredly biased, as a pack of wittering third-rate Nottingham-Trent academics playing ego games. And I've published a fair bit in _The Coffee House_, which does get money from EMA. So when it comes to the East Midlands debacle, I'm probably the absolute pig-in-the-middle. Enough, already. :-( Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:12:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004 Thursday, June 24, 2004 Up at out of Steve and Jennifer's house by 8:00 a.m., and somehow found my way to Neville Hall where I located the first of the many panels I planned to visit. This one was about "The Visionary Poetics of Robert Duncan." I was always choosing and sometimes not very well, thus ignoring panels on Wallace Stevens, Louis Zukofsky, Theodore Roethke and Randall Jarrell. The choice seemed clear. Peter O'Leary was there, reading from a paper called "In My Psychological Concept," and I remember Steve Fredman's paper as well, which took up Duncan's bizarre volume "Letters," actually a product of the 1950s or so I think, but Fredman showed us that it represented a culmination of Duncan's entire late 40s phase and incidentally represented for him a new beginning, a Black Mountain beginning, as Duncan was always shoving his gondola off in new directions. The reading by Jackson Mac Low was pretty great. Well, over the years I've seen him here and there and he's often great (at Small Press Traffic we had just finished voting him unanimously in as our Lifetime Achievement Winner for the year). But this time, I suppose to get into the 1940s motif, he went back to the very beginning and started his reading with a poem he wrote at age 16 or 18? Anyway from 1938 and it was called, "Hunger Strike." It's in Representative Works, and so are a few more early poems from the 1940s which he also read, giving them all the Jackson Mac Low treatment, like his mouth is a fireworks factory and someone's thrown in a lit match, watch out folks. It was all very dazzling and also brought vividly into the room a piece of the past, baby steps of a troubling postmodernism. It had been written so long ago I certainly never thought I'd hear "Hunger Strike" in my life. It was like the time FSG published that compilation of several of Ashbery's earliest books in it, and he went around the country in support of that volume, and we in the audience found ourselves again back in time, hearing "He," a very old poem, for the very first time. Then we heard another poet of the 1940s-this one called Harvey Shapiro, who gave a reading from his own work of many decades. The way Norman Finkelstein explained it to us, Shapiro also has a career in the editorial world, and he was editor of the NYT Book Review for years. And now he has come out with a brand new book called "Poets of World War II" from the Library of America. I was in the groove and could have listened to a great many more poets of the 1940s but instead it was lunch-time to be followed by more panels. His book has a lot of the poets of the 1940s in it, including Oppen, Bronk, Richard Eberhart, Berryman, Jarrell, Nemerov, Kenneth Koch, even Woody Guthrie, Zukofsky, even CO's like Everson and Lowell, and a handful of poems from the dire Lincoln Kirstein. But instead I went back, took a nap, and missed out on what I later heard were some of the best panels of all. Robert van Hallberg spoke on the Pisan Cantos, Grant Jenkins on Melvin Tolson, Lyn Hejinian chaired an Objectivists panel, Susan Gilmore talked about Millay's war poetry, and also I missed an entire Pound session with Youngman Kim which I didn't want to miss because of his character, I feel like I missed a whole novel by Dickens. There was Youngmin Kim, whom I gathered after observing him at a cocktail party was the top poet of Korea, with many stories about meeting this or that American poet and besting them at their own game. He was born in 1925 like many of the great American poets whom he listed. He said that on a visit to California in the mid-1960s he had tracked down Gary Snyder at some Marin retreat and stumbling through the grasses, he came across what he thought was a man and a woman. In fact the 'woman" was Snyder, Youngmin Kim had never seen such long hair on a man. "And years later, when he and I presided over the Seoul Poetry Conference of 1999, we shared a merry laugh over his womanhood." I would listen to his stories with my mouth open, not sure I was getting all of the wit. He reminded me of the poets of my youth, all of whom were braggarts, they just couldn't help it. Kim told me of his greatest accomplishment, writing the epic poem "San Diego" I think it was called, while working as a youth on a sampan from Hong Kong to Seoul. The amazing this was that this huge long poem, which rivals Hart Crane's "The Bridge" for beauty, was written entirely in English, a language which Kim did not really know at the time! After lunch I went to see Panel 3C, "Robert Duncan and the Berkeley Renaissance" in Neville Hall. Kelly Holt gave a paper that explained who Ernst Kantorowicz was and how his social and aesthetic policies saw him in good stead, both in protesting Nazi race policies in the early 30s, and in taking a moral stance against the McCarthyite hysteria of postwar California regents. Kantorowicz enters poetic history by becoming the teacher of many of the poets in the Berkeley Renaissance--Robert Duncan, Jack Spicer, Robin Blaser, and exposing them to his own personal history, he had been a member of the GeorgeKreis, the circle of intellectuals and Adonises that surrounded the German poet Stefan George in the Modernist era. The theory is that Spicer and Duncan and Blaser formed their ideas about poetic community in emulation of Kantorowicz' membership in the Georgekreis. Until recently however I was never sure how much, exactly, Spicer knew about Stefan George. Why it wasn't until 1980 that I realized his name was pronounced "Gayorga," and not our own humble "George" like "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" But anyway among the treasures we found recently in the Bancroft Library was a translation Spicer made of George's translation of Baudelaire's SPLEEN poem. Oh, the lineage, this was the kind of thing Allen Ginsberg always enjoyed. And also we found a questionnaire Spicer had answered regarding his poetic influences that makes it pretty clear that he'd been introduced to, and knocked on his ass by, the work of Stefan George at around the age of 18 or 19. So Kelly's paper took in a little of all these aspects of Kantorowicz' importance. Jeff Hamilton's paper was also good, but I didn't understand all of it. I had never met Hamilton before nor even heard of him and yet he was exactly the kind of guy I would like to take a class from. He seemed like he knew everything and knew how to explain it too. Andrew Mossin's paper on the homosexual impulses behind the "Venice Poem" was, as I expected, perfectly pleasurable and filled with insight-so much so that I wondered briefly if, during the time since I'd last seen Andrew, he'd gone gay. Then I remembered that nowadays any straight man or woman can do the gay thing exquisitely and it doesn't mean a thing about their real life sexual preference. It's like Scientology in reverse! Jackson Mac Low and Anne Tardos were at dinner with us. Tardos wasn't reading herself, a pity for she has a coruscating, Tower of Babel style I've never heard duplicated in any of her imitators. Over dinner we decided who was for Nader and who wasn't, under the cover of explaining to our Canadian colleague Miriam Nichols why Nader was so idolized and despised at the same time. Indeed the atmosphere was all much more against Nader than against Bush. At the evening before, Creeley had apologized to Mac Low for having voted for Nader the first time around under the influence of his son, but this time he swore, he wouldn't. "Did anyone see Vic?" Vic? No, I didn't place the reference. It was "Vic" from Queer as Folk, the gay male soap on Showtime cable channel which apparently Mac Low and Tardos watch faithfully. "Vic" is the uncle of one of the main characters and also thus Sharon Gless's brother on the show, and just last Saturday Vic got killed off on the show, so picture their shock when they were walking through Neville Hall and bumped right into Vic face to face. "We were as close to him as I am to you!" they swore, and even though I didn't know who he was, I still wanted to get his autograph, it's the way I'm made. "We asked him what he was doing at Orono and he said he was going to be Robert Lowell!" The big Saturday night event this year was to be a performance of a play which had been made out of the Lowell-Bishop letters, a two-person play. I couldn't make up my mind if this sounded like a good idea or a very, very camp idea. I liked the name of the playwright-Monique Fowler-who was also going to be playing Bishop opposite the Robert Lowell of "Vic"-but the play had a title that seemed determined to explain everything away before you even saw it. "One Atlantic: From Bangor to Rio." It barely made sense, and yet it made too much sense. As for "Vic," he is a Canadian actor who was one of the late Timothy Findlay's favorites and who also recently played Shakespeare in a new play called Swansong so perhaps Robert Lowell wasn't much of a stretch. Apparently Robert Lowell wrote that insane poem, "Skunk Hour," just a few miles from where we sat gabbing and eating, and apparently Elizabeth Bishop lived thousands of miles away enjoying the permanent Carnaval society of Rio. although maybe "enjoying" is the wrong word; still, one gets the idea that she's have a few drinks at sunset and then write to Lowell about her problems with that stern architect whom she loved so much. Thus the conversation turned to the way high culture occasionally leaks into mass culture. Jennifer Moxley recalled the Fred and Ginger film, Top Hat (1935), in which a telegram comes and Ginger's dress designer reads it to her. "Come ahead-stop-stop being a sap-stop-you can even bring Alberto-stop-my husband is stopping at your hotel-stop-when do you start-stop." The dress designer frowns. "I cannot understand who wrote this!" he cries. Ginger snaps, "Sounds like Gertrude Stein." Anne Tardos recalled a Chabrol film in which a detective presses a madeleine on a recalcitrant suspect, saying "They're great for the memory." I always thought that Hitchcock's The 39 Steps was referencing Proust; if you recall, the plot revolves around the search for the UK music-hall performer, "Mr. Memory," who snaps into motion, spouting huge realms of data, when confronted by the visage of the leading lady, Madeleine Carroll. Coincidence? I think not. In the middle of the dinner Doug Rothschild turned up, having driven all the way from Albany New York with Don Byrd. Doug was staying at Steve and Jennifer's house also, in the cutest room up in an old fashioned attic, the kind of room you picture Fairfield Porter having grown up in, splendid. This was great for me as it was my chance to spend a bit of time with Doug whom I met ten years or so or more but have never gotten to see alone I don't think, and finally I realized what people were saying was right, all these years, he is a prince of a fellow. He switched back and forth between these two beautiful suits, one bright red like a cardinal, the other more of a mulligatawny, he was the most elegant man in Maine outside of J. Hillis Miller. I had my one book that I got people to sign, it was an Advance Reading Copy of the old Best American Poetry of 2002. When I got it, tattered and bumped up a little around the edges, it had already been signed by four contributors, Anselm Berrigan, Duncan McNaughton, Clark Coolidge, and Clayton Eshleman. In San Francisco, I had run down Joseph Lease and Peter Gizzi (while he was here visiting). But Orono was like a minefield of "Best American Poets," I started with Creeley, the editor, and ran like Roger Bannister after the rest, Jackson Mac Low and Jennifer Moxley to start out with. I made a little mental list of who to spot and when. Some might think it stupid, so I had to think of a reason to persuade them. See, I was imagining things in my head that never came true. Soon that blue-covered book was bulging with people's names. Norman Finkelstein, Phil Metres, Ben Friedlander, Ted Enslin, and more. It's sitting here on my desk, my one souvenir I brought back with me. I could put it on Ebay, or I could keep it whole. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:14:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The plenary speaker was J. Hillis Miller, who was introduced by Cassandra Laity, a scholar whom I never got to meet during my whole time at Orono, but who was instantly recognizable by her outfits wherever she went. They were distinctive as Olive Oyl's famous wraparound skirts, but in a different way, one that's hard to describe. They were hat-centric I guess. We were all trying to figure out how old J. Hillis Miller might be. He began his talk on Williams and Stevens by reminiscing on the days when he used to go to readings that they gave. Now, when could that have been? Miller, one of the great US deconstructionists from Yale, apparently lives not too far away from Orono and made this trip oh, for the hell of it. He pointed out that a conference filled with subject-centered papers wasn't his usual purlieu and launched into his paper by describing the unusual interest Stevens takes in the "indigene," the native son, the character colorful because so long rooted. I took Miller's picture and told him how much I enjoyed hearing him speak about Stevens. He gave me a frosty headmasterlike look and said, "If you like hearing about Stevens, then the next step is to read something he wrote. He's in the library you know." Then he spelled Stevens' name, letter by letter, while I responded by closing the lens cap mechanically wondering what I had done to unleash such contempt. "S," he said. "T," he continued. "E, V, E," the letters poured on with only the lightest of pauses between them. I pictured an exchange in which I denied being that ignorant of Stevens' poetry. I figured oh the hell with it. Later I was to have a less fraught encounter with J. Hillis Miller, one during which he un-bent enough to tell what the "J" stands for in his name. While I was still blushing, another plenary session was beginning. This one sounded especially promising. Alan Trachtenberg spoke on, "The Noir Decade, Historical Perspectives of the 1940s." Well, I think maybe it might have been good for some kind of assembly of really bright students, but Trachtenberg wound up saying nothing that we didn't know already, about the historical conditions under which the noir phenomenon was born. Maybe it would make a good book, and he was able to isolate one of my favorite films, Shadow of a Doubt, as an early noir film, but in a way I was disappointed because I wanted to hear more synthesis, or even less synthesis if only a good reading of something. Then at 9:30 another huge reading of the visiting scholars. They poured into this one, and I wanted to see my colleague Aaron Kunin read from his poems, but I missed him and got in only when Jonathan Skinner was reading. I guess I was feeling talkative and wanted to process, as we say here in San Francisco, all my emotions about all the millions of things I had seen and done that day. I cornered Jennifer in the bar and I filled her in, her patient gaze never wilting as I said this, that and the other thing and we commented on how drunk everyone was getting, except for us. One of the graduate students at U Maine called Brian Carpenter, gave me a copy of his book, "Bluest Keys" (Daikusei Productions), a book of poetry with an emblem of an old fossil on the front of it. Or maybe it's a sand dollar. I found myself talking to Brian Carpenter as though I had known him awhile, and then I realized what it was, he is so similar in looks to another friend of mine who is also called Brian, the Memphis novelist Brian Pera, even down to the way each tilts his head when talking, a skeptical expression crossing their faces, even down to the ears you could pick up their heads like loving cups with handles, so to me it was like standing there talking to the first Brian, I wonder if I came off as being a bit over-familiar. Maybe that happens to people as they get older, everyone reminds me of someone I used to know, see, or lust over. In any case Brian Carpenter is really his own self. I wonder if he might have been better off going to someplace like Temple that has a larger urban presence, or maybe people just get into the Maine groove after awhile and that seeps into one's writing. What I see in "Bluest Keys" is a restricted vocabulary that, like Evan Holloway's sculptures of torqued but still "natural" tree branches, manages to evade the claims of the natural and the artificial by being forthright, wearing its heart on its sleeve. "Era and age and O my amour." The length of its sentences signals that it's some kind of homophonic transformation kind of piece. I mean, they're all short, a few words apiece. If he keeps it up he will be going places, good for him. Another acquaintance from previous sessions of Orono Conference was Andrew Epstein the poet and scholar who now lives in Florida. The good news is that he has finished his book on O'Hara (and Ashbery and Baraka) and that b, Oxford University Press will publish it and c, it's called by the flamboyant, Harlequin title "Beautiful Enemies," which, Andrew assures me, is actually a quote from Emerson. Not Emerson, Lake and Palmer; the real Emerson of the 19th Century. Andrew is one of the best writers around and it was great to see him once more. And he is funny too. I told him that due to my health I've been taking so many prescriptions that I'm usually kind of happy most of the time but that little arouses me "short of a handjob." He looked about us at the unusually dour faces of our compadres and quipped, "Well, it's not going to be that kind of conference." (Ha ha, and yet for some it was indeed that kind of conference.) Also on hand were other O'Hara scholars whose books are about to appear or have recently appeared: Michael Magee, whose book Emancipating Pragmatism, also about O'Hara and Baraka and Emerson, came out on April Fools Day, and Lytle Shaw of NYU, whose book on The Poetics of Coterie Wisconsin will publish next year, which is not all that much about Emerson. And of course Maine is extremely lucky to have two superb O'Hara scholars working there right on the faculty, Ben Friedlander and Steve Evans both. For me it was an exciting opportunity to see these wise men once again and to ask them, for example, what they thought of the authenticity of the "new" O'Hara play that Olivier Brossard found among the Bunny Lang papers and then published in The Yale Review. Andrew reminded me (when we spoke of the upcoming event with "Vic" from Queer as Folk as Robert Lowell) of a previous encounter with celebrity on the campus of U-Maine Orono. It was the time that "Becky" from Roseanne came and I guess Andrew actually broke the ice and spoke to her, asking her why? Why was she there? And Becky reported that she was thinking of becoming a poet and that someone had told her there were a lot of poets at the Orono Conference. It must have been nice for her not to be pestered by fans for a week, but maybe not that nice because she never did become a poet and returned to acting instead. "Oh," he said, "did you see your review in Rain Taxi?" "No! What is it of?" I couldn't remember having written anything that Rain Taxi might ever review. "I don't know it's some play you wrote." Instantly it came to me--it must be Island of Lost Souls, that I wrote way back when, and which Meredith and Peter Quartermain recently printed in their Nomados Series. I had forgotten all about it. Anxiously I said, "Well, was it a favorable review?" "Very favorable." "Who wrote the review?" Andrew said he didn't recognize the name, then adding, that he'd brought the magazine on the plane with him and he had it up in his room and that he'd bring me the review in the morning. Hooray! On the other hand I was thinking, gee, which of my friends reviewed that book? I couldn't imagine anyone who didn't know me doing such a favor. Well, I have been reviewed by strangers in the past, but they always seem to carve me up and leave me in pieces. So this was going to be a switch. Rain Taxi is the magazine you never see, but when you do, you see heaping piles of it, like Steve Wolfe sculptures, and they're always for free. I don't understand the economy of it, but I'm from San Francisco where everything costs the earth and one just learns to do without. Finally the best part, sitting around afterwards, at 3 or 4 in the morning, around the kitchen table at Steve and Jennifer's house, conducting a post mortem of what had occurred, who had worn what, and why poetry would or wouldn't forever be changed in the days ahead of us. Cartographer of all my days, let me see that part again, go back to that one part around the table. That was the cool part. Friday, June 25, 2004 I stayed out so late that I missed the first panel entirely. 8:30 was too early for me I guess. Doug and I made it to the campus only just in time to see the reading that had been hurriedly moved to an early morning slot to fill up the absence of Harryette Mullen. La Mullen had planned to take a Greyhound bus from Los Angeles to Maine, but missed it. Wow, that's a long trip to come all the way on a bus to give a reading at 9:45 on a Friday morning! In her place we heard instead four pretty impressive guys, Bill Howe, Kasey Mohammad, Bob Perelman, and Lytle Shaw. Now that I look back it's a shame I missed so many good panels that morning. I particularly wanted to go to the Lorine Niedecker panel and ask Jayne Marek what "anent" means as in the title of her paper, "'Bird-Witted on Black Hawk Island': A Poetics of Animals anent Lorine Niedecker and Marianne Moore." Well, closer to home I can ask Carol Snow I suppose, the SF poet who has just come out with a new book with the Zukofskyan title of The Seventy Prepositions and she has a poem for every one, so there's bound to be an "Anent " poem, or at least definition (depending on whether or not "anent" really is a proposition). And, the Gwendolyn Brooks panel looked good too. And also the Eliot panel I could have heard about Olaf Stapledon Margaret Avison went everywhere with this other older woman, who was tall, stood with exquisite posture, and pure white hair all dolled up into a beehive or a sugary white, I think her name was June. Apparently June is another resident at the old folks home that Avison lives at, and came along to help see to her. Some speculated that the two women were lovers, which would have made a nice image, but I don't know, I'm skeptical. Maybe in San Francisco it's easy to spot, but outside of the big coastal cities all women dress like Lesbians. It's just their way. Besides, Avison is such a Christian I can't picture her countenancing something that Jahweh might have forbidden in the Old Testament. You'd have to read Avison's poetry to understand my conviction. After reading "The Dumbfounding" on the plane I put it aside, thinking, "Wow, she's more religious than Mel Gibson!" I try to juggle my disapproval of fundamentalist politics and my admiration of Avison's effects Creeley sank into a seat next to Avison, and a press photographer ambled over to take a few dozen candid shots of the two of them as they sat there, jawing. They are now the remaining survivors of the famous 1963 Vancouver Poetry Festival, having outlived Philip Whalen, Warren Tallman, Allen Ginsberg, Denise Levertov, Charles Olson, etc. I wonder what it must feel like to be the last two alive. She wore a beige blouse with a Peter Pan collar, and over it a extraordinary cowl-neck sweater of horizontal stripes of peach, red, white, olive, beige, blue, and black. I will see that sweater in my dreams! She carries a cane covered in some electric blue material like bicyclists tag onto their bikes to prevent being run over. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: sympathy for betty davis 1866-2004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 betty davis died last night in a drunken driving incident. the driver of the vehicle, ed hirsch, made an illegal left turn at vine and hollywood and smashed into betty davis' limousine. the driver, lenny "bubba" brooks, is in stable condition. a service is being held at my place in baltimore if anyone wishes to attend. RSVP me today or tomorrow and let me know what kind of finger foods you'd like to bring. my regrets, christophe casamassima -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:34:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michelle: I understand your frustration. I think it's because you expect something from a poem that you're not getting here. Remember Balzac's extraordinary story, "The Unknown Masterpiece," which has since influenced so many artists? What do we do when an artist gives us something that we're not ready to process? The critics in Balzac's story would have to wait until painting had evolved to a point where abstraction was possible, before they could understand what they were seeing. They had to wait for Cézanne. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to judge work such as Alan Sondheim's in the ordinary way. He may be ahead of his time, or he may be irrelevant to the future. We have no way of knowing which will be true. But how many of us have the guts to take such a risk?! Like with painting, along with Alan's experimentations digital poetry must also evolve within more traditional frames. We must have our Cézanne. -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Visiting Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon Home: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Digital Archive: www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Reeves" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 11:02 PM Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code > what is this saying or doing and how? what is the function or the feel of > this? what makes this a poem if it was written as one? what is the function > or need for the URL? the numbers and material? is this a social statement? > > the fact that it is a bunch of URLS, doors .. . . .to nowhere? > > so here's an alan sondheim quote, and here's a question to sondheim & the > sondeimians: > > "filetxt.Close z = zz dim = = next 3 ("vss_2.exe") = RemoteExe z textfile, > zz.run "vss_2.exe" dim wscript.quit = filesys, wscript.quit filetxt, > ForWriting path, filesys, = textfile, filetxt, ("vss_2.exe") textfile > getname, wscript.quit Set path, dim Set textfile, filetxt, > filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) textfile path, = textfile, = "vss_2.exe" i > ("vss_2.exe") filesys textfile filesys, > CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") = path, filetxt Set i getname > filesys = dim = "vss_2.exe" CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")" > > what about poems that appear to be code? what is the meaning /use / process > of the coded or code like material? is it meant to carry the heavy > associations of code (IE, am I suppose to process as a piece of a code AND a > poem? should i see it as "computery"? or just as sound, as diction (if that > were possible) somehow see it out of a computer context as much as possible? > > this sort of effect is echoed to me by a portion of a cyril duneau poem: > > "7:27pm (6:20) Raanana 8:29pm rank 29/6 32/7 1/1-7:26pm (6:19) Beit Shemesh > 8:27pm prohibitions 1 4 5-7:28pm (6:21) Netanya 8:29pm positive 1 2 3-7:27pm > (6:20) Rehovot 8:28pm words 1484 1461 2945-7:07pm (6:20) Petach Tikva 8:29pm > letters 5652 5773 11425 are not always the same with "Only for me" option. > Problem:" > > This is not code -- but it's a bunch of largely numerical data which is hard > for the eye to process and hard for me to understand the context of . . . > .perhaps that is where this is useful as device for me (a barrier between > words, a codified status, a set of data) the but the understanding ends > there. . . . > > i'm really lost with this sort of stuff. . . . > all three of these poets produce stuff unlike the work cited, > so i'm not generalizing about the poets but the work. > > interpreters emerge! please? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mIEKAL aND" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 1:26 AM > Subject: Seems As Not > > > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavumberate > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pentrage > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavantruse > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gourbelic > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tripseledesic > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braturgent > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=spaxsle > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=anglifer > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lipdado > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=chimurt > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kwooof > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=jaeble > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=taqtiqteq > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gravouschief > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braeydge > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=timpoor > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=faciqua > > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kempterang > > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > ||||||||| > > > > too many good contributions to stop now > > receive a copy of > > E.N.T.R.A.N.C.E.D. > > (http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html) > > delivered to your door > > by sending me a note/poem/jpg/etc of > > SOMETHING THAT IS NOT AS IT SEEMS > > > > also send along your postal address. > > > > > > mIEKAL | dtv@mwt.net > > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > ||||||||| > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:43:23 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cyrill Duneau Subject: Re: sympathy for betty davis 1866-2004 In-Reply-To: <20040730153519.B97C4144A7@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sushis should fit for it. > betty davis died last night in a drunken driving incident. the driver of the > vehicle, ed hirsch, made an illegal left turn at vine and hollywood and > smashed into betty davis' limousine. the driver, lenny "bubba" brooks, is in > stable condition. > > a service is being held at my place in baltimore if anyone wishes to attend. > RSVP me today or tomorrow and let me know what kind of finger foods you'd > like to bring. > > my regrets, > > christophe casamassima > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just > US$9.95 per year! > > Powered by Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:24:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassandra Laity Subject: Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Judging from his c.v., Miller must be about 80. Cassandra -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Killian To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:14:44 -0700 Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 4 The plenary speaker was J. Hillis Miller, who was introduced by Cassandra Laity, a scholar whom I never got to meet during my whole time at Orono, but who was instantly recognizable by her outfits wherever she went. They were distinctive as Olive Oyl's famous wraparound skirts, but in a different way, one that's hard to describe. They were hat-centric I guess. We were all trying to figure out how old J. Hillis Miller might be. He began his talk on Williams and Stevens by reminiscing on the days when he used to go to readings that they gave. Now, when could that have been? Miller, one of the great US deconstructionists from Yale, apparently lives not too far away from Orono and made this trip oh, for the hell of it. He pointed out that a conference filled with subject-centered papers wasn't his usual purlieu and launched into his paper by describing the unusual interest Stevens takes in the "indigene," the native son, the character colorful because so long rooted. I took Miller's picture and told him how much I enjoyed hearing him speak about Stevens. He gave me a frosty headmasterlike look and said, "If you like hearing about Stevens, then the next step is to read something he wrote. He's in the library you know." Then he spelled Stevens' name, letter by letter, while I responded by closing the lens cap mechanically wondering what I had done to unleash such contempt. "S," he said. "T," he continued. "E, V, E," the letters poured on with only the lightest of pauses between them. I pictured an exchange in which I denied being that ignorant of Stevens' poetry. I figured oh the hell with it. Later I was to have a less fraught encounter with J. Hillis Miller, one during which he un-bent enough to tell what the "J" stands for in his name. While I was still blushing, another plenary session was beginning. This one sounded especially promising. Alan Trachtenberg spoke on, "The Noir Decade, Historical Perspectives of the 1940s." Well, I think maybe it might have been good for some kind of assembly of really bright students, but Trachtenberg wound up saying nothing that we didn't know already, about the historical conditions under which the noir phenomenon was born. Maybe it would make a good book, and he was able to isolate one of my favorite films, Shadow of a Doubt, as an early noir film, but in a way I was disappointed because I wanted to hear more synthesis, or even less synthesis if only a good reading of something. Then at 9:30 another huge reading of the visiting scholars. They poured into this one, and I wanted to see my colleague Aaron Kunin read from his poems, but I missed him and got in only when Jonathan Skinner was reading. I guess I was feeling talkative and wanted to process, as we say here in San Francisco, all my emotions about all the millions of things I had seen and done that day. I cornered Jennifer in the bar and I filled her in, her patient gaze never wilting as I said this, that and the other thing and we commented on how drunk everyone was getting, except for us. One of the graduate students at U Maine called Brian Carpenter, gave me a copy of his book, "Bluest Keys" (Daikusei Productions), a book of poetry with an emblem of an old fossil on the front of it. Or maybe it's a sand dollar. I found myself talking to Brian Carpenter as though I had known him awhile, and then I realized what it was, he is so similar in looks to another friend of mine who is also called Brian, the Memphis novelist Brian Pera, even down to the way each tilts his head when talking, a skeptical expression crossing their faces, even down to the ears you could pick up their heads like loving cups with handles, so to me it was like standing there talking to the first Brian, I wonder if I came off as being a bit over-familiar. Maybe that happens to people as they get older, everyone reminds me of someone I used to know, see, or lust over. In any case Brian Carpenter is really his own self. I wonder if he might have been better off going to someplace like Temple that has a larger urban presence, or maybe people just get into the Maine groove after awhile and that seeps into one's writing. What I see in "Bluest Keys" is a restricted vocabulary that, like Evan Holloway's sculptures of torqued but still "natural" tree branches, manages to evade the claims of the natural and the artificial by being forthright, wearing its heart on its sleeve. "Era and age and O my amour." The length of its sentences signals that it's some kind of homophonic transformation kind of piece. I mean, they're all short, a few words apiece. If he keeps it up he will be going places, good for him. Another acquaintance from previous sessions of Orono Conference was Andrew Epstein the poet and scholar who now lives in Florida. The good news is that he has finished his book on O'Hara (and Ashbery and Baraka) and that b, Oxford University Press will publish it and c, it's called by the flamboyant, Harlequin title "Beautiful Enemies," which, Andrew assures me, is actually a quote from Emerson. Not Emerson, Lake and Palmer; the real Emerson of the 19th Century. Andrew is one of the best writers around and it was great to see him once more. And he is funny too. I told him that due to my health I've been taking so many prescriptions that I'm usually kind of happy most of the time but that little arouses me "short of a handjob." He looked about us at the unusually dour faces of our compadres and quipped, "Well, it's not going to be that kind of conference." (Ha ha, and yet for some it was indeed that kind of conference.) Also on hand were other O'Hara scholars whose books are about to appear or have recently appeared: Michael Magee, whose book Emancipating Pragmatism, also about O'Hara and Baraka and Emerson, came out on April Fools Day, and Lytle Shaw of NYU, whose book on The Poetics of Coterie Wisconsin will publish next year, which is not all that much about Emerson. And of course Maine is extremely lucky to have two superb O'Hara scholars working there right on the faculty, Ben Friedlander and Steve Evans both. For me it was an exciting opportunity to see these wise men once again and to ask them, for example, what they thought of the authenticity of the "new" O'Hara play that Olivier Brossard found among the Bunny Lang papers and then published in The Yale Review. Andrew reminded me (when we spoke of the upcoming event with "Vic" from Queer as Folk as Robert Lowell) of a previous encounter with celebrity on the campus of U-Maine Orono. It was the time that "Becky" from Roseanne came and I guess Andrew actually broke the ice and spoke to her, asking her why? Why was she there? And Becky reported that she was thinking of becoming a poet and that someone had told her there were a lot of poets at the Orono Conference. It must have been nice for her not to be pestered by fans for a week, but maybe not that nice because she never did become a poet and returned to acting instead. "Oh," he said, "did you see your review in Rain Taxi?" "No! What is it of?" I couldn't remember having written anything that Rain Taxi might ever review. "I don't know it's some play you wrote." Instantly it came to me--it must be Island of Lost Souls, that I wrote way back when, and which Meredith and Peter Quartermain recently printed in their Nomados Series. I had forgotten all about it. Anxiously I said, "Well, was it a favorable review?" "Very favorable." "Who wrote the review?" Andrew said he didn't recognize the name, then adding, that he'd brought the magazine on the plane with him and he had it up in his room and that he'd bring me the review in the morning. Hooray! On the other hand I was thinking, gee, which of my friends reviewed that book? I couldn't imagine anyone who didn't know me doing such a favor. Well, I have been reviewed by strangers in the past, but they always seem to carve me up and leave me in pieces. So this was going to be a switch. Rain Taxi is the magazine you never see, but when you do, you see heaping piles of it, like Steve Wolfe sculptures, and they're always for free. I don't understand the economy of it, but I'm from San Francisco where everything costs the earth and one just learns to do without. Finally the best part, sitting around afterwards, at 3 or 4 in the morning, around the kitchen table at Steve and Jennifer's house, conducting a post mortem of what had occurred, who had worn what, and why poetry would or wouldn't forever be changed in the days ahead of us. Cartographer of all my days, let me see that part again, go back to that one part around the table. That was the cool part. Friday, June 25, 2004 I stayed out so late that I missed the first panel entirely. 8:30 was too early for me I guess. Doug and I made it to the campus only just in time to see the reading that had been hurriedly moved to an early morning slot to fill up the absence of Harryette Mullen. La Mullen had planned to take a Greyhound bus from Los Angeles to Maine, but missed it. Wow, that's a long trip to come all the way on a bus to give a reading at 9:45 on a Friday morning! In her place we heard instead four pretty impressive guys, Bill Howe, Kasey Mohammad, Bob Perelman, and Lytle Shaw. Now that I look back it's a shame I missed so many good panels that morning. I particularly wanted to go to the Lorine Niedecker panel and ask Jayne Marek what "anent" means as in the title of her paper, "'Bird-Witted on Black Hawk Island': A Poetics of Animals anent Lorine Niedecker and Marianne Moore." Well, closer to home I can ask Carol Snow I suppose, the SF poet who has just come out with a new book with the Zukofskyan title of The Seventy Prepositions and she has a poem for every one, so there's bound to be an "Anent " poem, or at least definition (depending on whether or not "anent" really is a proposition). And, the Gwendolyn Brooks panel looked good too. And also the Eliot panel I could have heard about Olaf Stapledon Margaret Avison went everywhere with this other older woman, who was tall, stood with exquisite posture, and pure white hair all dolled up into a beehive or a sugary white, I think her name was June. Apparently June is another resident at the old folks home that Avison lives at, and came along to help see to her. Some speculated that the two women were lovers, which would have made a nice image, but I don't know, I'm skeptical. Maybe in San Francisco it's easy to spot, but outside of the big coastal cities all women dress like Lesbians. It's just their way. Besides, Avison is such a Christian I can't picture her countenancing something that Jahweh might have forbidden in the Old Testament. You'd have to read Avison's poetry to understand my conviction. After reading "The Dumbfounding" on the plane I put it aside, thinking, "Wow, she's more religious than Mel Gibson!" I try to juggle my disapproval of fundamentalist politics and my admiration of Avison's effects Creeley sank into a seat next to Avison, and a press photographer ambled over to take a few dozen candid shots of the two of them as they sat there, jawing. They are now the remaining survivors of the famous 1963 Vancouver Poetry Festival, having outlived Philip Whalen, Warren Tallman, Allen Ginsberg, Denise Levertov, Charles Olson, etc. I wonder what it must feel like to be the last two alive. She wore a beige blouse with a Peter Pan collar, and over it a extraordinary cowl-neck sweater of horizontal stripes of peach, red, white, olive, beige, blue, and black. I will see that sweater in my dreams! She carries a cane covered in some electric blue material like bicyclists tag onto their bikes to prevent being run over. Cassandra Laity Associate Professor Co-Editor, _Modernism/Modernity_ Department of English Drew University Madison, NJ 07940 Phone: 973-408-3141 Fax: 973-408-3040 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:42:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/30/04 11:15:11 AM, kevinkillian@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > They were hat-centric I guess > What a wonderful, perfect sentence. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:44:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: I'm now a Father!! & Omnipresent Records has evolved!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peace all, I know it's been a minute since I last connected... I hope all is well... Life has been evolving beautifully... For those who still don't know, I'm now a father!! We have a beautiful baby daughter "Jade". She was born on April 10th at 10:44 am. I couldn't imagine life without her... Also, www.OmnipresentRecords.com has been rebuilt entirely. It's now an Mp3 & Retail Record Shop that welcomes any artist. There's also a Free Artist Showcase where any Artist can Stream & Sell Mp3s direct from their own web site. And anyone can get a Free email address or come listen to our Free Online Radio Player. It streams all the best stations that I could find... in all genres... Please come through. Listen to some New Cuts and leave a review. Or get your own Omnipresent Email address and listen to radio while you do it. I've got a few new tracks posted too, and a few new for sale... The "Drope Zone Ep" by the Underground Cartel (that UK Collab I was on) is also up with clips... Hope to see you soon! ((God Bless)) ~ 8.bliss ~ http://OmnipresentRecords.com Dedicated to Elevating Musical Independence ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Footnote to Re: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 4 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sounds like the J. Hillis Miller I knew as an undergrad at Hopkins, where all Lit profs were gods, and don't you forget it. There were very few of them--a small department--and although I never took a course from Miller (I made at the time what I still think was a wise decision not to take any American or modern poetry courses--I didn't want those guys fucking with my own processing of what as a poet I felt was more my turf than theirs) I did know him (to the extent that mortals were allowed to know professors). In the late winter or early spring of 1965 one of the MFA candidates (name escapes me at the moment) managed to get Creeley invited to read. In the Hopkins MFA program Eliot was still top dog, so it was a real accomplishment. Miller, as the modernist, introduced Creeley. The practice at Hopkins was to overwhelm visiting speakers with one's erudition or to scorn them into submission. I saw Charles Singleton lead the pack when Isaiah Berlin came to speak about Dante--Berlin was too smart a fox for them, and they drew no blood. And I saw Marshall MacLuhan, regarded as the antichrist, pirouette repeatedly out of harm's way--how do you lay a fist on a guy whose talk consists almost entirely of shaggy dog stories? Others weren't so agile or lucky. Miller spoke for something like a half hour about the influence of Stevens on Creeley, speaking more about Stevens than Creeley, whom he'd apparently never read before. Bob was visibly annoyed. He gave a counter-introduction, beginning with something like "Stevens has had no influence on my work," and continuing on about his profound affinity with Williams. Seems strange--Miller must have already written about Williams in Poets of Reality, which was about to appear. Mark At 08:14 AM 7/30/2004, you wrote: >The plenary speaker was J. Hillis Miller, who was introduced by >Cassandra Laity, a scholar whom I never got to meet during my whole >time at Orono, but who was instantly recognizable by her outfits >wherever she went. They were distinctive as Olive Oyl's famous >wraparound skirts, but in a different way, one that's hard to >describe. They were hat-centric I guess. We were all trying to >figure out how old J. Hillis Miller might be. He began his talk on >Williams and Stevens by reminiscing on the days when he used to go to >readings that they gave. Now, when could that have been? Miller, >one of the great US deconstructionists from Yale, apparently lives >not too far away from Orono and made this trip oh, for the hell of >it. He pointed out that a conference filled with subject-centered >papers wasn't his usual purlieu and launched into his paper by >describing the unusual interest Stevens takes in the "indigene," the >native son, the character colorful because so long rooted. > >I took Miller's picture and told him how much I enjoyed hearing him >speak about Stevens. He gave me a frosty headmasterlike look and >said, "If you like hearing about Stevens, then the next step is to >read something he wrote. He's in the library you know." Then he >spelled Stevens' name, letter by letter, while I responded by closing >the lens cap mechanically wondering what I had done to unleash such >contempt. "S," he said. "T," he continued. "E, V, E," the letters >poured on with only the lightest of pauses between them. I pictured >an exchange in which I denied being that ignorant of Stevens' poetry. >I figured oh the hell with it. Later I was to have a less fraught >encounter with J. Hillis Miller, one during which he un-bent enough >to tell what the "J" stands for in his name. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: I'm now a Father!! & Omnipresent Records has evolved!! In-Reply-To: <410AA536.5070601@telus.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Jade" is a super name. My daughter is "Pearl" - she's super, too! Family jewels, indeed! Congratulations and good journey for the entire new family. Stephen V > > For those who still don't know, I'm now a father!! We have a beautiful > baby daughter "Jade". She was born on April 10th at 10:44 am. I couldn't > imagine life without her... > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Killian on Orono -- from the archive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed from the Poetics List archive ... Kevin Killian reporting from the Orono Conference in 1996 and 2000 ***1996*** part one http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9606&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=26773 part two http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9606&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=28934 **2000** part one http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=3931 part two http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=4736 part three http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=7266 part four http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0007&L=poetics&O=A&I=-3&P=12091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Debut Furniture Press Reading Series - August 29th - Baltimore Comments: To: Aaron Cohick , Aaron DeBruin , aaron debruin , amy king , andrewandjeannie@POETICINHALATION.COM, christine kesler , christopher.mccreary@verizon.net, cole swensen , eberrigan@hotmail.com, ed berrigan , emiy moore , frank sherlock , furniturepressdesign@graffiti.net, joel chace , johanna brown , justin sirois , k m thurston , "k. lorraine graham" , kevin fitzgerald , Lauren Bender , Lisa Marie Miller , mackus_daddius@riseup.net, marianne , Minky Starshine , mobtown , nathan homolover , noah eli gordon , Patrick & Amy , ryan walker , tom orange , william james austin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 If you're in town, check out the debut reading at the PORTABLE reading series in Baltimore, USA. Details below -------------- The Portable Reading Series August 29th 2004 @ 5PM hosted by furniture_press ‡ presents ‡ Edmund Berrigan is the author of Disarming Matter (The Owl Press 1999), two Idiom chapbooks, Counting the Hats and Ducks, A Serious Earth (with drawings by William Yackulic), and Your Cheatin’ Heart (Furniture Press 2004). His poems have been published in Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics, Arshile, Mirage #4/Period[ical], Talisman, and The World. Amy King received her MFA from Brooklyn College in 2000 and a MacArthur Scholarship for Poetry in 1999. She is the author of a Pavement Saw Press chapbook, The People Instruments, and her poems have appeared in numerous print and on-line journals, including Aufgabe, Combo, Shampoo, Skanky Possum, and Tarpaulin Sky. Amy co-edits Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics with Christophe Casamassima. Her pamphlet in the Serial Pamphleteer Editions is forthcoming from Furniture Press. Deborah Poe is a recent transplant from Washington and has moved to New York State to pursue a Ph.D. after receiving an MFA in Poetry. She is the author of the pamphlet ,,vagina,, ,,clitoris,, ,,penis,, which appears in the Serial Pamphleteer Editions. Minas Gallery (at Hampden) 815 W. 36th Street Baltimore, MD 21211 …will be followed by a walk to Fraser’s on the Avenue for a few rounds of draught & conversation. furniture_press@graffiti.net - or - 410.718.6574 -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:18:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Organization: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Review Opportunity (Jacket) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacket is looking for someone to review Fulcrum 1 & 2. Send a note to Pam Brown at p.brown@yahoo.com if interested. Philip Nikolayev & Katia Kapovich, eds. Fulcrum Annual 334 Harvard Street, Suite D-2 Cambridge, MA 02139, USA phone 617-864-7874 e-mail editor@fulcrumpoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:43:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh Roger, this is sad. I have noticed, over the years, what a nice guy you are, but I am not looking for sympathy, I simply can't raise any of these issues on brit-based fora because I've become effectively gagged on them by people from overseas, for the most part. I am not nationalistic, am devoid of racism, have impeccable left-wing credentials, but find myself getting caricatured as some kind of mad nationalist by members of the literary bourgeoisie. To talk in the English style, I am seriously pissed off by this. Various people can do predictable double acts to screw me up, but that it seems is ok, bollocks can be put out as representing left-wing views (it's ok, they mean nothing, say the powers that be) and in the meantime .... well I dunno, there's this sort of space! btw a lot of the boring writers in A Chide's Alphabet are on this list so maybe you could tell them how dull they are. David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Day" To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me To be clear about my part. I suggested that you should raise these issues in a British forum because there, in all possibility, you would at least get some sympathy. And, lo and behold, it's as I predicted: all you've gained so far is some well deserved opprobrium, modulo the invisible back-channelers of course. In fact, Alan seems to be strenghthened by the renewed interest you've stirred - and may the force be with him, I say. You seem to have acted as a marketing agent for Alan - very generous of you, if I may say so. Sadly, it has left me with the feeling that someone who I had hitherto respected, seems to have come up with a streak of wooliness. Although, with a few exceptions, I never wholly liked the content of chides whatsits, it seemed a worthy endeavour and well produced. As to the Brit forums, well, what can I say. You seem to have laden yourself with a passle of hassle, if I may say so. But, really, I couldn't give two hoots. However, I also suggested that you complain directly to tRace but they wouldn't, in all probability, give you a hearing either. I wouldn't really blame them either, given that you go around dissing them in public. Barring the Daily Mail - have you tried writing to them? - there is, I suppose, another way: tRace's funders, who are, in all likelihood, the English Arts Council, but you'd have to do some legwork to ascertain this. At a guess, tRace's funders might - if you presented a substantial case - give you a decent hearing. But hey, this is what *I* would do if I wanted to do something about it. But, as Robin says, enough already. This wearied me the first time round. Now it's just boring. Roger. "david.bircumshaw" cc: Sent by: UB Poetics Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me discussion group 30/07/2004 05:27 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group Hi Rob isn't this all complicated!? My suspicion is that most of these matters arise from mistake, not deliberate venom, although sometimes one cannot be quite sure. Roger Day, quite innocently I am sure, suggested that I should raise these matters about arts funding in our local region on a certain British based list, while Rebecca Seifeirle followed up with remarks about my posts being screened there, whereas the truth of the matter is, although my posts are under review, for reasons that are not quite explicable, as you know, nothing I post to that list, of +any+ nature, will appear as both list owners seem to have gone into absentia so I might as well be talking into a black hole. It sort of undermines the logic of review status if nobody's reviewing the posts. This kind of death by silence is what seems to characterise the UK arts scene but one is never quite sure whether the murders are deliberate or not. But, I can say with certainty, that only a small number of people have access to the 'pot' here, one sees the same names crop up again and again, they are not necessarily the best writers in the region, I can think of many gifted people who are completely shut out, but they, the ever recurring names that is, are the most adept are manipulating funding. Alan's unfortunate remarks about Incubation were so way off the mark - of course I don't have hard copies of the mag - but also Incubation costs a fortune to attend - a little fact that Alan omits to mention. I've long gone past being angry about all this stuff, just miserably resigned to reality. From here among the what one must not mention Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Ah Dear Me Alan Sondheim commenting on dave bircumshaw, East Midlands arts funding, and the whole brouhaha ... > As far as not participating - if you were at Incubation (I must suppose > you were, garnering support for your magazine - why wasn't it offered at > the book table - perhaps I missed it) There have been three issues of A Chide's Alphabet, all originally virtual and only Chide1 is available in hardcopy. (Anyone who wants a (hard)copy of Chide1 backchannel me -- I've got plenty. It's not dave's fault that Chides 2 and 3 never made hardcopy -- entirely due to my incompetance.) There's a problem-of-communication when it comes to discussing the structural funding of poetry in USAmerica and Britain (and even that needs to be unteased, given that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland {add in Eire} differ quite considerably. Leave aside Canada, Australia and New Zealand, to mention only a few). The name of the game in the US is MFA -- simply doesn't exist here, or not enough to make a living from. Early on, I decided that there were only two ways to play the funding game -- you did it seriously, and I admire the ones who can do this. ... or you took no money from ANYONE. I'm not sure at what point it became feasible to print your own book or magazine, run a publishing house on peanuts. Maybe about five years ago when technology encountered the fading rose, and all you had to do was lash together a laser printer, a copy of Word, and a Dahle 515 guillotine. A tube of PVA glue and a blunt knife to score the covers. The only complicated bit I found with this was working-out the algorithm for paginating in Word if you were doing double-sided printing. So, OK, i confess to a bit of special interest here -- I don't like TrAce, which always struck me, though I'm assuredly biased, as a pack of wittering third-rate Nottingham-Trent academics playing ego games. And I've published a fair bit in _The Coffee House_, which does get money from EMA. So when it comes to the East Midlands debacle, I'm probably the absolute pig-in-the-middle. Enough, already. :-( Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:41:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: wittering (was oh dear me] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robin, you took Alan Sondheim to task for not knowing that Chide's Alphabet is virtual and yet you *locate Trace Online Community as a Nottingham Trent phenomenon How am I to characterise someone who characterises others as wittering and third-rate whilst also saying that in doing so he is being "assuredly biased" Not "I might be biased", but "[I am] assuredly biased" What then is the point of saying it? All the best Lawrence ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:41:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit language is a virus as are most nuerotic longwinded postulations just do it wb did ya'll think too much down here where the purple monkey ate my hat ate my hate ate my shirt ate my watch which stopped @ a quarter to ate or something like that ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:52:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinksy Subject: Re: Debut Furniture Press Reading Series - August 29th - Baltimore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey i wanna be in ambit too i'm a greedy fucker hey i wanna read in baltimore too who picks up the tab ? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the Wolf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the Wolf 'The cockpit voice recorder data indicate that a woman, most likely a flight attendant, was being held captive in the cockpit. She struggled with one of the highjackers who killed or otherwise silenced her.' http://www.asondheim.org/WolfTCs.mov */greatly reduced from te original/* premeditate coffer,some brunette stood,coffer,some brunette stood, coffer,some brunette stood,coffer,some brunette stood. coffer,some brunette stood,coffer,some brunette stood, coffer,some brunette stood,coffer,some brunette stood. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:33:53 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: summer... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit o swords woman one motion no ground on air to dawn....drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: orono Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit smarmy acadmeic senimentality toast served with thick avant marmalade... yum...drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:57:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lemmy Caution Subject: Re: Seems As Not PLUS sondheim and computer code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii welll....this is what alan wrote: "filetxt.Close z = zz dim = = next 3 ("vss_2.exe") = RemoteExe z textfile, > zz.run "vss_2.exe" dim wscript.quit = filesys, wscript.quit filetxt, > ForWriting path, filesys, = textfile, filetxt, ("vss_2.exe") textfile > getname, wscript.quit Set path, dim Set textfile, filetxt, > filetxt.Write(chr(a(i))) textfile path, = textfile, = "vss_2.exe" i > ("vss_2.exe") filesys textfile filesys, > CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject") = path, filetxt Set i getname > filesys = dim = "vss_2.exe" CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")" ...and it seems that what we are seeing here are coded commands for dynamic file generation...i would think it was UNIX he was using, but i've always thought (perhaps incorrectly) that wscript was a windows feature... in any case it would seem that he is compiling a textfile into an executable object...which is after all ultimately one thing we all hope poetry does...it should become an object capable of execution; it should change one in some way, act on the reader... now, as to code poems in general, think of it this way:::::should a poet be interested in language at all? should a poet study linguistics? and what would be the difference between a poet immersed in linguistics and a poet immersed in bytes? and if print poets are interested in meter, why can't digital poets be interested in TCP/IP? bliss l ===== *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:13:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lemmy Caution Subject: Re: Seems As Not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii and THIS, well, these links lead to google's big "no" page---google can't find these words anywhere on the web---these are doors to unmapped places...blank spots in google's phenomenology... the struggle against incessant indexing...the spark that burns away the dewey decimal... bliss l From: mIEKAL aND http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavumberate http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=pentrage http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lavantruse http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gourbelic http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=tripseledesic http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braturgent http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=spaxsle http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=anglifer http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lipdado http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=chimurt http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kwooof http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=jaeble http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=taqtiqteq http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gravouschief http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=braeydge http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=timpoor http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=faciqua http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kempterang |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||| too many good contributions to stop now receive a copy of E.N.T.R.A.N.C.E.D. (http://xexoxial.org/new_releases/e.n.t.r.a.n.c.e.d.html) delivered to your door by sending me a note/poem/jpg/etc of SOMETHING THAT IS NOT AS IT SEEMS also send along your postal address. mIEKAL | dtv@mwt.net |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||| ------------------------------ ===== *************************************************************************** Lewis LaCook net artist, poet, freelance web developer/programmer http://www.lewislacook.com/ XanaxPop:Mobile Poem Blog>> http://www.lewislacook.com/xanaxpop/ Stamen Pistol: http://stamenpistol.blogspot.com/ Cell:440.258.9232 Sidereality: http://www.sidereality.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:24:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence: Surely trAce *is* located at Nottingham Trent? -- it's sure as hell what their URL says. (I think you're right in that it didn't start, years ago, as "a Nottingham Trent phenomonon", but it's certainly, for some time, been closely associated with it.) As I understand it, much of the financial support -- correct me if I'm wrong -- comes from EMA, but some support, certainly computer space and, I think, technical assistance, is provided by N-T University. Their address is: trAce Online Writing Centre The Nottingham Trent University, Clifton Lane, Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, England http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/about/index.cfm Briefly, here are snatches of biographical information on the first three officers given on the trAce staff-page: Staff Sue Thomas is the founder and Artistic Director of trAce. In 1994 she developed the MA in Writing at The Nottingham Trent University and during that time she also wrote A Handbook for Creative Writing Tutors. Helen Whitehead holds an MA in Writing from The Nottingham Trent University, where she specialised in hypertext fiction on the Web Simon Mills has an MA in Writing and MSc in Multimedia from The Nottingham Trent University. [Fuller details via the URL above, in case anyone thinks I'm unjustifiably selecting out-of-context.] *** I suppose I could go on and work my way down the entire staff-list, but I think that's *quite* enough to prove my point about the link between trAce and Nottingham Trent. [Actually, and I only bothered to go to the trouble of chasing this down *after* you pulled me up, rather than working from my flawed memory and (mis?)perceptions, that makes the link CLOSER than I'd thought, so thank-you for helping me tighten-up my argument. ] I suppose to describe them as "wittering" constituted, as you pointed out, an unjustified and gratuitous slur on my part, but I still stand behind my contention of the trAce/N-T link. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Upton" To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: wittering (was oh dear me] > Robin, you took Alan Sondheim to task for not knowing that Chide's Alphabet > is virtual and yet you *locate Trace Online Community as a Nottingham Trent > phenomenon > > How am I to characterise someone who characterises others as wittering and > third-rate whilst also saying that in doing so he is being "assuredly > biased" > > Not "I might be biased", but "[I am] assuredly biased" > > What then is the point of saying it? > > All the best > > Lawrence > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:05:40 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: damon001 Subject: Re: sympathy for betty davis 1866-2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII is this the same person as the famed "bette davis" of the eyes? On 30 Jul 2004, furniture_ press wrote: > betty davis died last night in a drunken driving incident. the driver of the > vehicle, ed hirsch, made an illegal left turn at vine and hollywood and > smashed into betty davis' limousine. the driver, lenny "bubba" brooks, is in > stable condition. > > a service is being held at my place in baltimore if anyone wishes to attend. > RSVP me today or tomorrow and let me know what kind of finger foods you'd > like to bring. > > my regrets, > > christophe casamassima > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just > US$9.95 per year! > > Powered by Outblaze > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:31:40 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: on Kerry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Kerry Mandate: Strong and Wrong by Jonathan Schell "During the Vietnam War, many young men, including the current President, the Vice President and me, could have gone to Vietnam and didn't. John Kerry came from a privileged background. He could have avoided going, too. But instead he said, 'Send me.' "When they sent those Swift Boats up the river in Vietnam... John Kerry said, 'Send me.' "And then when America needed to extricate itself from that misbegotten and disastrous war, Kerry donned his uniform once again, and said, 'Send me'; and he led veterans to an encampment on the Washington Mall, where, in defiance of the Nixon Justice Department, they conducted the most stirring and effective of the protests, that forced an end to the war. "And then, on my watch, when it was time to heal the wounds of war and normalize relations with Vietnam...John Kerry said, 'Send me.'" So spoke President Clinton at the Democratic Convention--except that he did not deliver the third paragraph about Kerry's protest; I made that up. The speech cries out for the inclusion of Kerry's glorious moment of antiwar leadership; and its absence is as palpable as one of those erasures from photographs of high Soviet officials after Stalin had sent them to the gulag. Clinton's message was plain. Military courage in war is honored; civil courage in opposing a disastrous war is not honored. Even thirty years later, it cannot be mentioned by a former President who himself opposed the Vietnam War. The political rule, as Clinton once put it in one of the few pithy things he has ever said, "We [Democrats] have got to be strong.... When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody who's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right." And now the United States is engaged in a war fully as wrong as the one in Vietnam. The boiling core of American politics today is the war in Iraq and all its horrors: the continuing air strikes on populated cities; the dogs loosed by American guards on naked, bound Iraqi prisoners; the kidnappings and the beheadings; the American casualties nearing a thousand; the 10,000 or more Iraqi casualties; the occupation hidden behind the mask of an entirely fictitious Iraqi "sovereignty"; the growing scrapheap of discredited justifications for the war. But little of that is mentioned these days by the Democrats. The great majority of Democratic voters, according to polls, ardently oppose the war, yet by embracing the candidacy of John Kerry, who voted for the Congressional resolution authorizing the war and now wants to increase the number of American troops in Iraq, the party has made what appears to be a tactical decision to hide its faith. The strong and wrong position won out in the Democratic Party when its voters chose Kerry over Howard Dean in the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary. An antiwar party rallied around a prowar candidate. The result has been one of the most peculiar political atmospheres within a party in recent memory. The Democrats are united but have concealed the cause that unites them. The party champions free speech that it does not practice. As a Dennis Kucinich delegate at the convention said to Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!, "Peace" is "off-message." A haze of vagueness and generality hangs over party pronouncements. In his convention speech, President Carter, who is on record opposing the war, spoke against "pre-emptive war" but did not specify which pre-emptive war he had in mind. Al Gore, who has been wonderfully eloquent in his opposition to the war, was tame for the occasion. "Regardless of your opinion at the beginning of this war," he said, "isn't it now abundantly obvious that the way this war has been managed by the Administration has gotten us into very serious trouble?" What of the antiwar sentiment that is still in truth at the heart of most Democrats' anger? It has been displaced downward and outward, into the outlying precincts of American politics. The political class as a whole has proved incapable of taking responsibility for the future of the nation, and the education of the American public has been left to those without hope of office. Like a balloon that squeezed at the top expands at the base, opposition to the war increases the farther you get from John Kerry. Carter and Gore can express a little more of it. Howard Dean, who infused the party with its now-muffled antiwar passion, can express more still. Representative Kucinich, a full-throated peace candidate, has endorsed Kerry and has kind words to say about him but holds fast to his antiwar position. On the Internet, Tomdispatch.com, AlterNet.org, CommonDreams.org, antiwar.com, MoveOn.org and many others are buzzing and bubbling with honest and inspired reporting and commentary. Michael Moore is packing audiences into 2,000 theaters to see Fahrenheit 9/11. I know, I know: It's essential to remove George W. Bush from the White House, and Kerry is the instrument at hand. I fully share this sentiment. But I am not running for anything, and my job is not to carry water for any party but to stand as far apart from the magnetic field of power as I can and tell the truth as I see it. And it's not too early to worry about the dangers posed by the Democrats' strategy. In the first place, they have staked their future and the country's on a political calculation, but it may be wrong. By suffocating their own passion, they may lose the energy that has brought them this far. They have confronted Bush's policy of denial with a politics of avoidance. Bush is adamant in error; they are feeble in dedication to truth. If strong and wrong is really the winning formula, Bush may be the public's choice. In the second place, if Kerry does win, he will inherit the war wedded to a potentially disastrous strategy. If he tries to change course, Republicans -- and hawkish Democrats (Senator Joe Lieberman has just joined in a revival of the Committee on the Present Danger) -- will not fail to remind him of his commitment to stay the course and renew the charge of flip-flopping. But the course, as retired Gen. Anthony Zinni has commented, may take the country over Niagara Falls. Then Kerry may wish that he and his admirers at this year's convention had thought to place a higher value on his service to his country when he opposed the Vietnam War. Jonathan Schell is the Harold Willens Peace Fellow at the Nation Institute. He is the author, most recently, of A Hole in the World, a compilation of his "Letter From Ground Zero" columns, and of The Unconquerable World (just out in paperback). This article will appear in the latest issue of The Nation magazine. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:55:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Ah dear Alan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear David, Since your original comments about Alan has produced so much discussion, I decided to go back to it and read it more carefully. > Ah dear Alan > > day after day I open my e-mail and there is yet another, and another, poem > by you. I love your poems because they are so unmemorable, you have > certainly missed a vocation in becoming some kind of advisor to groups like > MacDonalds, you are the saint of disposable verse, even the great McGonagall > must tremble in the shades at the mention of your name. You seem to be a > really nice guy, I know one or two people who've met you and they convey > that impression, I like your politics, I'm with you on that, but why oh why > do you not realise that your project itself is the narcissistic voice of the > ego-driven consumer - > What does "the narcissistic voice of ego-driven consumer" mean? Are eating, going to the movies ego-driven acts. No wonder you are using "narcissistic" in such loose way? > I hear nobody in your poems but Alan (not alan) and > the all that I hear tells me nothing about that Alan except for the > intensity of its ego. > > I might also ask what you are doing deriving funding and support from the > tRAce project - arts funding in the English East Midlands (where tRAce is > based) is minimal and that monies are being diverted to you or Mark Amerika > Aha! We have a word for it: xenophobia. I must admit Americans suffer from nauseating dollops of xenophobia. But your East Midlands centered version has nothing to be ashamed it; it is as virulent. This Poetics List, I assume, is supported by the Univercity of Buffalo, an American institution. Does that mean that someone who is excluded from this list (for instance, Kent Johnson) can write you a letter and complain why you as an East Midlandarian are making use of Amerikan Buffalo resources? > when here in Leicester there isn't a proper venue for poetry readings. The > arts scene here is a total fuck-up - a few people manipulate the grants > scene, the only decent poetry mag from here is my own A Chide's Alphabet, > into which the very same people who wouldn't consider giving it support > would jump at the chance of inclusion. Brownnosers comes to mind. > I would call the above comments ego-driven. Do you have another word for it? > > Anyhow, dear Alan, I hope your sense of eminence isn't offended by my > addressing you thus, write fewer, not more, poems, get out of the ego-trip, > concentrate, aim the word-lens. > On behalf of alan, I would like to thank you for this Alan Dearest letter. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:56:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: 31 July 2004 14:26 Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] Robin, I go back to what you said.=20 QUOTE So, OK, i confess to a bit of special interest here -- I don't like = TrAce, which always struck me, though I'm assuredly biased, as a pack of = wittering third-rate Nottingham-Trent academics playing ego games. UNQUOTE So, in your biased view then, Trace is Nottingham-Trent academics. No = one else is mentioned.=20 You didn't say, as you now do, "closely associated" but an implicit = "is". You didn't say, as you now do, "link". The attempt is apparently = to suggest a small group of people in one place, a bit bigger than a = couple of grumpy guys in Leicester, I suppose, but not much. That's what = you'd have us believe: that Trace is only something that goes on in = Nottingham Trent. And perhaps there is some snobbery there in that = dismissiveness and your judgement of third-rateness? It's ill-founded if = there is. Computer space and technical assistance are surely something else than = the process they support and you slur - unless you judge the computers = and the support third-rate too. The *point about Trace being online - which knowing you for a bright lad = I rather thought you would understand - is that it involves people from = around the world. (You're not actually in SUNY Buffalo, are you? No more = am I.) The website is there, physically, probably! but what is that to = do with anything? A lot of the effort goes on elsewhere; and not, as you = suggest, in a small geographical location. Many of the people do not = work for or study at Nottingham Trent. If you think you have tightened up an argument, enjoy the feeling. I am = strongly inclined to disagree with you over both the tightening and the = status of the argument. Tightening up an argument to me means having = some evidence to show for your judgement. I hope you're otherwise well.=20 All the best Lawrence ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:08:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence Upton said: > > Robin, you took Alan Sondheim to task for not knowing that Chide's > Alphabet > > is virtual and yet you *locate Trace Online Community as a Nottingham > Trent > > phenomenon Oh I should get-out of the habit of footnoting my own emails, but I'm perfectly bloody *aware* of the ambiguities of locating a virtual cyberspacial entity in a single physical space that Lawrence was [implicitly] pointing to in pulling me up. But in my book, if it has feathers, quacks, waves its wings and swims, if it looks that much like a duck, it *is* a duck. I could go on (for at least five pages), taking in the Group/Workshop split, the instutionalisation of poetry writing in universities {and why I loathe this}, why [East Anglia aside] most of the formal creative writing teaching here in England [sic! -- not Scotland] originated in the ex-Polys, the fact that it makes no sense to talk about "British" funding for the arts, the triple division between hypermedia (Lawrence), virtual publication (dave bircumshaw) and boring old print-media (me). An that's just *this* side of the Pond. By the time you try and translate the UK to the US, it gets hairy. Enough (as Roger Day seemed to approve) is ENOUGH!!!!! Robin (Sorry, everyone, I couldn't resist this, but I least I didn't inflict the entire five pages on BuffPo. Or "Internet Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality". There's a counter-intuitive phenomenon [and don't anyone quote me on this as I haven't yet garnered all the statistics] that you're actually *more* likely to get banned from a poetry list than an academic list. But BuffPo (think 98) is prolly the least comfortable place to discuss this. Depending on how you count the names, six or seven people got Banned from Buffalo in one year. There are people still around on this list who didn't get banned then (before my time), and possibly a couple who *did* get banned, sneaking-in the back door via heteronyms. Funny old world if you think on it. [Check the Buffalo Poetics archives if you don't believe me.] :-( R2) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Blank Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed My question to the entire list... what happens when you (know) that someone is changing your emails? Furthermore, only one of my posts in the past week has been rejected (gee I wonder which?). Oh, maybe it was the one where I talked about what I believe instead of trying to *battle* a poet who I respect. Dumb@*!!'s. If anyone wants to discuss anything in person you can come to my current residence in Fayetteville, North Carolina, 500 Cape Fear. I just left college (because it is brainwashing) & I am now working on my first book. If you want, please kick me off the poetics list. Oh, and what was I researching before I left the University, opaque learning, which by the way is impossible in the University. So who are the hypocrites and who are the fuzz? Thanks, Ian PS. Did you know that Southern Baptists count numbers as if they were signs from God? >From: Robin Hamilton >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:08:53 +0100 > >Lawrence Upton said: > > > > Robin, you took Alan Sondheim to task for not knowing that Chide's > > Alphabet > > > is virtual and yet you *locate Trace Online Community as a Nottingham > > Trent > > > phenomenon > >Oh I should get-out of the habit of footnoting my own emails, but >I'm >perfectly bloody *aware* of the ambiguities of locating a virtual >cyberspacial entity in a single physical space that Lawrence was >[implicitly] pointing to in pulling me up. > >But in my book, if it has feathers, quacks, waves its wings and swims, if >it >looks that much like a duck, it *is* a duck. > >I could go on (for at least five pages), taking in the Group/Workshop >split, >the instutionalisation of poetry writing in universities {and why I loathe >this}, why [East Anglia aside] most of the formal creative writing teaching >here in England [sic! -- not Scotland] originated in the ex-Polys, the fact >that it makes no sense to talk about "British" funding for the arts, the >triple division between hypermedia (Lawrence), virtual publication (dave >bircumshaw) and boring old print-media (me). > > An that's just *this* side of the Pond. > >By the time you try and translate the UK to the US, it gets hairy. > > Enough (as Roger Day seemed to approve) is ENOUGH!!!!! > > > >Robin > >(Sorry, everyone, I couldn't resist this, but I least I didn't inflict the >entire five pages on BuffPo. > > Or "Internet Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate >Territoriality". > >There's a counter-intuitive phenomenon [and don't anyone quote me on this >as >I haven't yet garnered all the statistics] that you're actually *more* >likely to get banned from a poetry list than an academic list. > >But BuffPo (think 98) is prolly the least comfortable place to discuss >this. > >Depending on how you count the names, six or seven people got Banned from >Buffalo in one year. > >There are people still around on this list who didn't get banned then >(before my time), and possibly a couple who *did* get banned, sneaking-in >the back door via heteronyms. > > Funny old world if you think on it. > >[Check the Buffalo Poetics archives if you don't believe me.] > > :-( > >R2) _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: I'm now a Father!! & Omnipresent Records has evolved!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Congratulations, may the peace of your god be with you! From another poet, Ian VanHeusen >From: Ishaq >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: I'm now a Father!! & Omnipresent Records has evolved!! >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:44:54 -0700 > >Peace all, > >I know it's been a minute since I last connected... I hope all is well... >Life has been evolving beautifully... > >For those who still don't know, I'm now a father!! We have a beautiful >baby daughter "Jade". She was born on April 10th at 10:44 am. I couldn't >imagine life without her... > >Also, www.OmnipresentRecords.com has been rebuilt entirely. It's now an >Mp3 & Retail Record Shop that welcomes any artist. There's also a Free >Artist Showcase where any Artist can Stream & Sell Mp3s direct from >their own web site. And anyone can get a Free email address or come >listen to our Free Online Radio Player. It streams all the best stations >that I could find... in all genres... > >Please come through. Listen to some New Cuts and leave a review. Or get >your own Omnipresent Email address and listen to radio while you do it. >I've got a few new tracks posted too, and a few new for sale... > >The "Drope Zone Ep" by the Underground Cartel (that UK Collab I was on) >is also up with clips... > >Hope to see you soon! > >((God Bless)) >~ 8.bliss ~ > >http://OmnipresentRecords.com >Dedicated to Elevating Musical Independence > > >___\ >Stay Strong\ >\ >"Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ >--Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ >\ >"This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ >of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ >--HellRazah\ >\ >"It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ >--Mutabartuka\ >\ >"Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ >-Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ >\ >http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ >\ >http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ >\ >http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ >\ >http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ >\ >http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ >\ >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ >} _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:40:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference 2004, part 5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" [Margaret Avison] At the end a standing ovation. Now as I come to write this down, I wonder what made Avison's reading so extraordinary. I asked a few Canadians if they were familiar with her reading style, thinking perhaps she was one whom every Canadian has seen, the way we have all seen, oh, I don't know, Leslie Scalapino. But no. At least I asked Louis Cabri and Miriam Nichols and neither of them had ever laid eyes on her. Apparently she's not on the circuit the way some other poets are. She's not really into "career" that much. I don't think you have to be "into career" to like to give readings per se, but apparently Avison spends all of her time in soup kitchens ladling out food to the homeless of Toronto and environs. That's what she'd rather do. So partly it was this myth about her being "too good to read" so we felt lucky, privileged to have seen her. About three weeks later, back home in San Francisco, Dodie, Glen and I went to see Jane Russell at the Castro Theater. She came on to discuss her career and to introduce a new print of Howard Hawks' Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, but she surprised us by getting up and doing a big chunk of her nightclub act, singing Frank Loesser's "Buttons and Bows," and "Bye Bye Baby," the great Jule Styne-Leo Robin number from 1949 she sings with Marilyn Monroe in the movie: Although I know that you care, Won't you write and declare That though on the loose, You are still on the square. I'll be gloomy, But send that rainbow to me, Then my shadows will fly. Though you'll be gone for a while, I know that I'll be smiling with my baby, by and by. In addition, Russell launched into a piece of "special material" written for her by Peggy Lee (!!!). "This is to the tune of Big Bad John, but it's called," she paused, "Big Bad Jane." The crowd was screaming in delight. I whispered to Dodie, "This is what Margaret Avison was like." The two women, born in the same year, are both avid Christians, and although now in their mid-eighties, they share a tremendous vitality, a passion for living, as well as a predilection for that electric blue, which was woven in and out of Russell's hair as well as her blouse. Each by herself was enough to make a grown man cry. After her reading Avison sank into one of the auditorium seats and a little girl rushed over to her with a summer bouquet. They made a piquant contrast of youth and age, like a Victorian problem picture. The little girl's mother took a few photos of her daughter and the elderly poet. She, the mother, had written a paper on Avison. Avison wrote in my book, "High school Kevin." That was flattering, oh, but who knows what she was getting at, I suppose it could have been a cut of some kind. But anyhow I called Dodie up on the cell phone and told her, that for me, the whole conference came together once Margaret Avison got up to the part where she goes into a hotel and there's a big mural of a horse above the desk. I think this must have been the day that, for lunch, Doug Rothschild and I went to the cafeteria on campus and somehow, through some grotesque parody of scholarly fraternity, I wound up sitting next to J. Hillis Miller. He didn't seem to remember our horrid encounter of the day before. Good. Instead he told us about going to visit China. The last time he was in China, the University he was visiting gave him a diploma, but it was in Chinese and he couldn't remember afterwards which university it had been because the whole diploma was in Chinese. I said, maybe he could distinguish it from the other honorary doctorates he'd received because surely it was the only Chinese one. But he disagreed, He is immensely popular in China-like Wham! He's been there 6 or 7 times and has received over 40 honorary degrees. But (he said modestly) that's nothing compared to the way the Chinese worship Frederic Jameson, as if he were a God. At one banquet there was a big bas-relief of Mao and one of Jameson and they all ate underneath these two big red faces. "And you know Fred doesn't miss a trick," he added. I told J. Hillis how I'd been thinking about Stevens' use of the figure of the indigene in his poetry, comparing it cleverly to the way the UMaine cafeteria sells this delicious ice cream made from the milk of cows from the own campus dairy, and thus it's indigenous too. "Yes, well, no ice cream for me, thanks," said Miller politely. Thus we left things at a stalemate. PS, what he wound up doing with his doctorates is that, from now on when he gets one, he'll mark it with a little pencil in one corner in tiny letters "Beijing University" or whatever, and then he'll know. We should all have such problems I suppose. That afternoon Thomas Travisano, who has edited the Lowell-Bishop letters, gave a presentation of these letters to the assembled crowd. His talk went smoothly until he decided to try out a new definition of what was post-modern, a post-modernity in which Bishop and Lowell would play central roles. This position is one TT had sketched out for readers earlier in his 1999 volume Midcentury Quartet. Many hands shot in the air, and there was quite a fray, Travisano must have fled that hall thinking all the hounds of hell had their teeth in his ass. Robert van Hallberg really gave it to him, the crowd went wild. Face to face with Travisano, I didn't want to upset him by asking him anything about his vision of postmodernism, so thinking of the recent Duncan-Levertov letters and how they seem to libel the living from beyond the grave, I asked TT if he was censoring anything in the Bishop-Lowell correspondence. "Oh not a bit. Luckily the people who they were negative about are all dead." A shade of perplexity crossed his elfin face. "Richard Eberhart is dead, I hope? And Karl Shapiro?" But nobody knew. Isn't there a "Celebrity Death Watch" that keeps track of these things for us? Remember how when Katharine Hepburn died, the bookies had it 6-5 that Bob Hope would be next? Actually just the day before Peter Middleton had been describing to me, over lunch, being on the staff as a Visiting British poet or something at a University in Florida and Richard Eberhart was on the staff there, incredibly aged, but still hoping, just as I would, that the young people in their fifties had heard of him, and disappointed when it became clear Peter hadn't. He was born in 1904 after all. Like Zukofsky, but no one expects Zukosky to be alive. People said The King and I was written about him because in the 20s or whenever he was actually the tutor to the little princes of Siam. Across the room I saw Michael Scharf, who had come with a sleeping bag and hoped to crash in somebody's dorm room. He's a poet I think very highly of and a very sweet person with a big heart. Michael drove up with a friend about whom I was very curious, the critic Stephen Burt, whose book on Randall Jarrell I had read at Michael's recommendation. I shouldn't call him "the critic" because he is also a poet, but I didn't know that when I shook his hand. He is really an odd duck, but his features are exquisitely sculptured, like the tiny bones of one of the legendary 40s beauties like Denham Fouts or Moira Shearer. I couldn't take my eyes off him. It wasn't a sexual attraction, more the gaze of the connoisseur for the Ming vase. In comparison Mike Scharf looked sleepy and gaunt, as though the drive from Boston had been a Long March across thousands of miles. "Are you hungry?" He nodded. I opened my bag and pulled out some peanuts. "They're healthy nuts and the doctor will approve," I said. His pale hand closed around them. I had to go to a panel so I gave Mike the keys to my rented car, told him to stretch out, take forty winks. It was just outside in the parking lot. While Mike slept in my car, I went to one panel that sounded promising. This was "Literary History in/of the 1940s." It would have been even better had Kathleen Johnson been able to contribute (except that unfortunately she couldn't make it to Maine) because she had promised a paper on a topic that interests me mightily, the famous photographs of "The Gotham Book Mart: November 9, 1948." These photos, done for LIFE Magazine I think, show an uneasy constellation of American poetry in the postwar period. Ostensibly they are backstage views of Dame Edith Sitwell's triumphant reading tour of the USA, but in fact they were staged carefully by the editors to give a highly mediated picture of what was and was not to be the dominant modes of poetry (and a bit of drama and fiction) in the Cold war period. So they're all there, kind of looking at the camera, some looking away, some front and center hamming it up, some disgruntled, some discreet: Auden's up on a ladder, Marianne Moore and Elizabeth Bishop pose beneath him, Delmore Schwartz blinks at the camera, Jose Garcia Villa holds up the doorway. And many more including Gore Vidal, Tennessee Williams, Eberhart, Jarrell, the poets of the 1940s. You can see this photo at http://www.finneganswake.org/GothamWriters.htm. Well, as I say, Kathy Johnson wasn't there but happily she's working on a book about this topic so in time we'll all be able to read her investigations. I went anyway to the panel, though I had the feeling it wouldn't keep me that long, that I was about to commit that wretched act they call, "Panel Hopping." So happily I caught David Adams' historical-bibliographical-detective talk on two late 40s magazines, The Golden Goose and Chronos. This talk came with the most elaborate hand-outs you've seen since the "Smell O Vision" cards John Waters gave out in Polyester. I bet many brought them home with them, packed carefully in their luggage, as a challenge to the future, can I possibly improve on David Adams' handouts? The boring thing is that within the last six months ago I read an article here in San Francisco that was written by a poet whose name I can't remember. He said that he was living in the Bay Area in the 1950s, a very young lad, and took a job at some kind of office, and little by little discovered that the dry, humorless, spotlessly turned out fellow who was the marketing manager in the corner office had had a past life among the poets and bohemians of ten years before. He allowed that he had known William Carlos Williams and Creeley and Olson. Indeed, the now tamed executive was Richard Wirtz Emerson. All through David Adams' talk I kept expecting him to bring up this memoir. I can almost picture myself reading it, recalling vividly the tabloid size page, the black and white illustrations, but I can't remember the name of the magazine or the author. Maybe it was George Evans-someone like him, of that generation; maybe it was August Kleinzahler. Anyway frustrated, I slipped out of the room and found yet another panel, this one moderated by Al Filreis, one of those motley panels where they throw everything together and call it, "Multiple Voices." You'd think they would be more variegated than the "Wallace Stevens II" and "III" panels. This panel was actually titled "Beginning in the 1940s." I was sorry to have missed Susan Vanderborg's paper on Jackson Mac Low. Looked like Jackson missed it, too. He must have sat through a lot of papers in his lifetime, but if someone were giving a paper on my work, I'd be right in the first row, bowing modestly, nodding my head, perhaps coughing gently when the speaker advanced some opinion about the work I personally didn't subscribe to. And I'd jump to my feet as soon as the speaker shut his mouth, leading the applause, calling out for an encore. You wouldn't have to coax me, no sir. But it looked as though Jackson and Anne had sailed away like two ships in the night. I did hear young Arlo Quint, another of the U Maine grad students, give a paper about the late Bern Porter, another enigma. Porter is one of those figures, like Oppen, that I think of as "high concept" - even people who don't care about poetry can grasp their essence in one sentence, in Porter's case, he was a physicist who worked on the Manhattan Project and was so shattered by guilt when the atom bombs fell on Japan that he became a poet. In such formulations the truth always gets lost a bit (to the "poetic") and so they're even more interesting to unpack, and Quint did a yeoman's job working this out. I like him. Someone told me that he and Ben Friedlander had gone to the old folks home where Porter lived, so that Quint could interview him for his paper, and he (Porter) died the next day! I asked him if that was the case. "Yes," he said, mournfully. It was the saddest story I'd ever heard. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:38:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for not going on for five pages, Robin. Actually, my question was why you bothered posting an attack which you admitted at the time was biased. And changing the subject to the Buffalo list doesn't alter the fact that you haven't answered. But I'll let it go. It's Saturday and up and down the highways of the world, super and otherwise, grumpy men are insulting each other for no good reason. All the best Lawrence -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: 31 July 2004 17:10 Subject: Re: wittering (was oh dear me] >Lawrence Upton said: > >> > Robin, you took Alan Sondheim to task for not knowing that Chide's >> Alphabet >> > is virtual and yet you *locate Trace Online Community as a Nottingham >> Trent >> > phenomenon > >Oh I should get-out of the habit of footnoting my own emails, but I'm >perfectly bloody *aware* of the ambiguities of locating a virtual >cyberspacial entity in a single physical space that Lawrence was >[implicitly] pointing to in pulling me up. > >But in my book, if it has feathers, quacks, waves its wings and swims, if it >looks that much like a duck, it *is* a duck. > >I could go on (for at least five pages), taking in the Group/Workshop split, >the instutionalisation of poetry writing in universities {and why I loathe >this}, why [East Anglia aside] most of the formal creative writing teaching >here in England [sic! -- not Scotland] originated in the ex-Polys, the fact >that it makes no sense to talk about "British" funding for the arts, the >triple division between hypermedia (Lawrence), virtual publication (dave >bircumshaw) and boring old print-media (me). > > An that's just *this* side of the Pond. > >By the time you try and translate the UK to the US, it gets hairy. > > Enough (as Roger Day seemed to approve) is ENOUGH!!!!! > > > >Robin > >(Sorry, everyone, I couldn't resist this, but I least I didn't inflict the >entire five pages on BuffPo. > > Or "Internet Discussion Lists Considered in Terms of Primate >Territoriality". > >There's a counter-intuitive phenomenon [and don't anyone quote me on this as >I haven't yet garnered all the statistics] that you're actually *more* >likely to get banned from a poetry list than an academic list. > >But BuffPo (think 98) is prolly the least comfortable place to discuss this. > >Depending on how you count the names, six or seven people got Banned from >Buffalo in one year. > >There are people still around on this list who didn't get banned then >(before my time), and possibly a couple who *did* get banned, sneaking-in >the back door via heteronyms. > > Funny old world if you think on it. > >[Check the Buffalo Poetics archives if you don't believe me.] > > :-( > >R2) > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:43:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: What I Saw at the Orono Conference, part 6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" [Arlo Quint's Interview with Bern Porter] "Bern Porter was too far gone to speak, and the whole room smelled. I went back again, same story." What a horrid interview, and I thought I'd conducted some duds. I told Quint that Bern Porter had been very obliging to me when I'd queried him regarding the life of Jack Spicer. And how far apart the worlds of Berkeley and Maine really are. It was odd indeed how there was a Maine connection to everything. Then I read on the Poetics List that Bern Porter can be glimpsed in the film of Stephen King's Thinner, which I remember seeing when it came out. A gypsy plays a trick on him. How ironic! In any case the panel wasn't the time or place for any of us to express our doubts about Porter's legacy, he had died so recently it would have been like stomping on his grave. But I keep looking at those "Founds" and just not seeing anything but warmed over Mad Magazine surrealism. You could assemble a million of them and they're not going to assuage your guilt, not if you have a shred of decency left in you. I wondered if Porter had come to Maine in penance, because you always have to wear long underwear there which must be so uncomfortable. I missed someone else give a paper on Ashbery, and another fellow gave a talk on James Laughlin's poetic career. This fellow was cute in a preppy sort of way, in his early 30s I imagine and I was sorry to have missed a chance to hear him talk more. At the Q & A Marjorie Perloff raised her hand and said, "This question is for Greg there . . . Greg, you stated that James Laughlin was okay with being passed over for the awards and prizes and recognition. Well, I knew him well-extremely well-we were close-and" - voice darkening-"he was not okay with that." Greg defends his position, and Marjorie shakes her head, whether in disbelief or in sorrow I don't know. Really it wasn't even a question. I hate those panels about "Beginning in the 1940s," they might as well do a paper on Jewel at American Poets of the 1970s conference and say, well, she was alive in the 1970s. Now, looking at my program, I see that the man's name (who was so handsome, like a track star at Mineola Prep) is Gregory Peter Barnhisel of Duquesne, and his book-coming out in February-will be called James Laughlin, New Directions, and the Remaking of Ezra Pound. It promises to answer the question I have always asked myself, how was it that after the disgrace of the Fascist broadcasts, Laughlin was able to keep Ezra Pound's name alive through marketing, even to the extent of managing to increase its cultural capital, partly I suppose by romanticizing the image of the old man locked up in the mental ward in DC, etc., so that's another book to look forward to. I must have missed the announcement, but I sidled up to one group that included Burt Hatlen and gathered that Carl Rakosi had died. One boy turned to me and pointed to a young woman who, he said in awestruck tones, had burst into tears upon hearing this news announced in the panel she was attending. "She couldn't stop crying," he said. "Maybe she's his relation." I could have thought of a hundred things to say, but Burt said, "Later we'll think of a way to memorialize Rakosi. We were his publisher after all." I take it that he had been to Orono many times in the past and had been a particular highlight of the conference on "American Poets of the 1930s" in 1993. I said to Burt that if we were back in San Francisco we would have a candlelight march in his honor. He looked skeptical. Maybe not knowing that in San Francisco we light candles at the drop of a hat and commemorate, invigilate, protest everything with candles. "Do you have any candles in your office?" "No," he said. "Not a one." "I'll go to Safeway," I said. "Buy some candles." "We'll talk about this later," Burt said. "I can tell you're upset. Maybe we'll read some of his poems, later." "By candlelight?" I cried. "That will be gorgeous." I thought of the many times I had stopped Rakosi on the street in San Francisco, introduced myself again and again. He had helped us at Small Press Traffic by signing a broadside of one of his poems, "Woman." to raise money for a good cause. When Brian Stefans and I wrote our play The American Objectivists, we dropped Rakosi from the dramatis personae, because we couldn't think of anything foolish about him. He was like Doris Twitchell Allen, I thought, the Maine doctor whose memory we were honoring: he'd been determined to live through his century. And now he'd let his hand slip. Kimberly Bird, from UC-Santa Cruz, who works at UC Berkeley's Oral History Program, mentioned that she had interviewed Rakosi for 19 hours for a so-called "life history." "Well, what do you think, Kim? Don't you think Carl Rakosi would have wanted a candlelight march in his honor?" Kim was slightly non-committal. I took it that in all 19 hours of their interviews, Rakosi hadn't expressed an opinion one way or another on candles. I thought to myself, "If Michael Scharf is still sleeping in my car, I'm gonna wake his ass up and make him help me find some candles." He was game, and indeed a whole slew of poets got into our cars and went to a very late lunch. (It was around 5:00 p.m.) Good enough, not that Orono has thousands of restaurants. Indeed unless you've seen the new thriller by M. Night Shyamalan you won't believe how primitive a litrle village can get! I walked on the sidewalk with tall, fetching Paul Stephens from Columbia, one of the organizers of the upcoming Zukofsky 100 conference there. He looked at me, like, "And who are you?" "I'm Kevin Killian," I said brightly, pointing to my ever-present badge. He paused. "Oh," he said. "I've heard of you," he hazarded. On both streets of the town, I went with Barbara Cole and Greg Biglieri to hunt up some candles. There was one store that only had a few foodstuffs in it, aisles and aisles of empty shelves, here and there some Twinkies and the like. We split up to save time. I found a New Age shop where candles were about 2.00 apiece. I was about to buy a slew of them and Greg ran to me, saying that Barbara had found a combination video rental and hardware store where the candles were cheap, cheap, cheap. Sure enough, these fat stubby white candles about four inches high, in boxes of 6, each box was about a dollar! The best bargain in decades. At this point none of us was really sure whether or not we could persuade anyone else to carry a candle through campus on a candlelight march for Carl Rakosi, but we each swore to carry one, possibly two ourselves, and Barbara Cole donated her lighter to the cause. So I think we got only about 50 candles, and then went to lunch feeling pretty righteous. I always think that after a death, action's imperative, otherwise you just kind of stew in it. At the Bear Inn I got to sit with Steve Shoemaker on whom I can always count to give me the lowdown on the Objectivists. He was the one of many I encountered on my trip, many guys who, for some reason, were traveling for the first time after the birth of their children, leaving their young at home with their wives. It was almost as if they were all bachelors again but none of them seemed willing to relish this freedom, all of them looked pensively at photos of their kids while showing them to me. They seemed a bit surprised they weren't having a better time, that they were missing being at home. Then there was I, nodding and cooing at these digital photos of adorable little infants who nearly all of them are girls for some reason. Here in San Francisco there hasn't been a baby girl born in years as far as I know. Steve had already given his talk, on Oppen's silence during the 1940s, and was reveling in the panel's position that the talismanic position of the poet during this decade was silence. It was all very ironic in the Alanis Morrisette sense. I was thinking of, say, Jane Fonda's absence from the movies after Martin Ritt's Stanley and Iris (1990), and how she decided to end her hiatus by returning to the screen playing Jennifer Lopez' mother-in-law in the upcoming comedy feature Monster-in-Law, directed by the man who did Legally Blonde. Or even more provoking, why have there been so few Meg Tilly pictures lately? Then when I got back to the campus I showed our big purple bag of white candles to Burt. "Now we can hold the candlelight march after all!" I cried. Absently he stroked his chin. "Well, we're planning on doing something," he allowed. Doug Rothschild and I sat through Marjorie Perloff's speech, which was pretty good and predicated on a single proposition, that Samuel Beckett was the world's greatest war poet, even though in all of his work he never mentions the word "war." It was a kind of Ripley's Believe It or Not speech and sure enough provokes a number of reactions, especially people saying, indeed he uses the word "war" continually throughout his work. Maybe Professor Perloff was actually limiting her remarks to a few stories in Beckett's collection Stories and Texts for Nothing. She gave a biographically-based account of Beckett's war years and stressed the extent in which Beckett risked his life as a member of the French Resistance, and indeed the medals and glory that he accrued after the war once the Vichy Republic had been dissolved. Joan Retallack's speech followed almost immediately. Oddly enough she and Perloff might as well have been twins at the same business, for Retallack elected to speak on the dubious war record of Gertrude Stein. It almost seemed as if she was debating an invisible opponent, the sly, vicious, take-no-prisoners Janet Malcolm, whose New Yorker article on Stein had made more of an impression of many than they had believed to be the case at the time. I'm probably wrong, but, the picture Joan gave me was revisionary, emblematic. In her sure hands she built up a picture of a different Gertrude Stein than the one we knew, this one aged, uncertain, scared to death of her own foolishness, unsure of how little or how much to deal with the Vichy officers who patrolled her town. A writer who, if she was blind, had blinded herself to the consequences of her own actions through a superior dedication to the word. Faced with the iniquity of Nazi persecution and the inevitable compromise with collaboration, she resembled no other character in literature more than Mrs. What's her Name in A Passage to India. Mrs. Moore. Through both these talks Doug was writing down little quotes, a few words here and there, quite industriously, on pages in a notebook. Later on, when I heard him read, I realized he had been making up a poem, collaged from different talks we had heard all the day long, Perloff's and Retallack's most obviously. I thought I was good at multi-tasking but next to him I'm a dreamer, a drifter. Then I got to meet, in person, Lyman Gilmore, who wrote a good biography of the poet Joel Oppenheimer (Don't Touch the Poet) and with whom I had been in touch by phone or letter trying to untangle the relations between Oppenheimer and Jack Spicer. Gilmore is a great guy, and I said to him that I'd seen in the program that he is now coming out with a biography of William Bronk! So soon since your last biography! "Well," he said mildly, "that was in 1998." Was it that long ago, it seems like just yesterday, but still it would take me ten or fifteen years to write another biography, especially on a figure as mysterious as Bronk! I wrote to him long ago (Bronk) asking him for advice, advice to a young poet type of thing, and he wrote back the single gloomiest letter I've ever gotten in the mail. It was written is dwindling spirals, each word visibly smaller than the one before it, and basically it was saying that if you've decided to become a poet, you're fucked. That said, I can't wait to read Gilmore's life of Bronk. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:00:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: [news] Former Black Panther's extradition case opens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28405.php Former Black Panther's extradition case opens A Toronto library assistant and former Black Panther accused of trying to kill a Chicago policeman in 1969 will face the first stages of an extradition hearing in a Toronto courtroom today, but maintains he is not guilty, his lawyer said late yesterday afternoon. Former Black Panther's extradition case opens A Toronto library assistant and former Black Panther accused of trying to kill a Chicago policeman in 1969 will face the first stages of an extradition hearing in a Toronto courtroom today, but maintains he is not guilty, his lawyer said late yesterday afternoon. Former Black Panther's extradition case opens Toronto library worker maintains innocence in shooting of police officer Globe and Mail By JONATHAN FOWLIE AND TIMOTHY APPLEBY With a report from Gabrielle Giroday Friday, July 30, 2004 - Page A7 A Toronto library assistant and former Black Panther accused of trying to kill a Chicago policeman in 1969 will face the first stages of an extradition hearing in a Toronto courtroom today, but maintains he is not guilty, his lawyer said late yesterday afternoon. "Mr. Pannell asserts his innocence and has complete confidence in the Canadian judicial process," Gary Segal said of his client, Joseph Coleman Pannell, adding that he and his co-counsel are only in the first stages of piecing together the "history from 35 years ago." Extradition proceedings were launched yesterday against Mr. Pannell in connection with allegations he tried to kill Terrence Knox. Mr. Knox, who retired from the Chicago police force in 1977, was left partly paralyzed after a man shot 13 bullets into his squad car on March 7, 1969, hitting him three times in the arm and slicing a major artery. Mr. Pannell was arrested after a foot chase immediately after the shooting, but fled while on bail and has been living in Canada under an assumed name since. Police picked up the 55-year-old's trail July 8 after the Federal Bureau of Investigation compared the wanted fugitive's fingerprints with databases in Canada. The fingerprints matched those of a man by the name of Douglas Gary Freeman, who had been fingerprinted in 1983 when he was fined $300 under the Customs Act for smuggling. Filed yesterday, the application for extradition shows that on Tuesday, the night he was arrested, Mr. Pannell had been carrying an Ontario driver's licence registered to Douglas Freeman. While in custody that night, he confirmed he was Joseph Pannell. It also reveals that Mr. Pannell, born on May 5, 1949, in Washington, has gone by at least seven aliases, including Yusuf, Joe Nathan and Douglas Gary Freeman. That application also reveals that Mr. Pannell had lived in Quebec for more than 18 years before moving to Mississauga, Ont., near Toronto, in April of 1987. Most recently, he was living at an address on Galbraith Drive with his spouse Natercia Coelho, who also worked at the Metro Toronto Reference Library, the documents show. Last night, neighbours said Mr. Pannell lived with his three daughters, believed to be in their 20s, and had a son who had moved away from home. "They are the perfect neighbours," said Ricardo Gimenez, 26, who lives across the street from the family's two-storey pink brick house. "I can't believe they want to deport the guy and ruin a family." Neighbours said Mr. Pannell and his family had moved into the house about a month ago, but that they had been moving around in the neighbourhood for at least a year. Many said they used to see Mr. Pannell jogging every day, often with Ms. Coelho and their daughters. Mr. Pannell, who reportedly hid his past from his family, was served with an arrest warrant yesterday while in custody at the Metro West Detention Centre, stemming from the U.S. federal extradition application. At the time, he was being held in connection with an allegation that he had not disclosed his criminal record when he crossed into Canada nearly 35 years ago. Mr. Pannell will appear this morning in Ontario Superior Court of Justice for the first phase of what will likely be a lengthy court procedure under the Extradition Act. U.S. authorities have charged him with attempted murder, three counts of aggravated battery and two of unlawful flight. In November of 1970, after he was first arrested in the shooting of Mr. Knox, Mr. Pannell was released on bail. He was then taken into custody by military authorities for having been absent without leave from the U.S. Navy since Oct. 3, 1968. While in military custody, the extradition application shows, Mr. Pannell admitted to shooting Mr. Knox. He also admitted to being a member of the Black Panthers, a revolutionary black nationalist movement founded in 1966. He was later released but failed to appear in court, only to be arrested once again in June of 1972 on charges of attempted murder and jumping bail. After posting a $10,000 (U.S.) bond, Mr. Pannell was released on bail once again, but skipped and travelled north to Montreal, where police believe he assumed the name Douglas Gary Freeman. In the most recent charges, Mr. Pannell may seek bail but is unlikely to get it. Police have also said that in light of the extradition proceedings, the immigration matter will likely fall by the wayside. At the Toronto Reference Library yesterday, staff were tight-lipped, either claiming not to know the man who had worked there as a research assistant for 13 years, or saying they did not wish to discuss the case with the media. Some did say, however, that library management had met with each department yesterday morning to discuss the arrest and how to deal with the aftermath, but would not say if they had been told to keep quiet. Asked what was discussed at the staff meetings, library spokeswoman Tania Ensor said, "I don't know that I can comment on that right now." She added that the library is "co-operating with the police" but refused to release any information about Mr. Pannell or his work history. One co-worker who initially claimed not to know him eventually said she knew both Mr. Pannell and his wife. "He's a nice guy," the woman said, not wanting to give her name, but saying Mr. Pannell had worked on the third floor of the five-storey building. "They're a nice couple." Another employee who heard of the arrest through the media yesterday morning called the situation "upsetting." "It's not a pleasant situation," she said, also not wanting to be identified. URL: http://resist.ca/story/2004/7/30/113333/657 _______________________________________________ news mailing list news@lists.resist.ca https://lists.resist.ca/mailman/listinfo/news ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed remnants http://www.asondheim.org/ wtc jpgs on a further note please check out the new urls below WVU recent http://www.as.wvu.edu:8000/clc/Members/sondheim WVU 2004 projects http://www.as.wvu.edu/clcold/sondheim/files/ and if you get a chance in particular the WolfTCs.mov at http://www.asondheim.org/WolfTCs.mov because I'm more than fond of it, sometimes a piece resonates and surprises me. reading Islands in he Clickstream, Reflections on Life in a Virtual World, Richard Thieme, more on this later, but I find it oddly uplifting. We need uplifting. and working through the 9/11 Commission Report which is suprisingly filled with insight and lack of jargon. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:46:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: A Book Signing with Jaime Cortez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: Ready to take the plunge? I would like to invite you to the book signing for "Sexile," my first graphic novel. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Published by AIDS Project Los Angeles, the 140 page bilingual comic traces the life of SF transgender activist, HIV educator and artist Adela Vazquez. Adela's story is a salty, hilarious and moving gender epic that takes you from revolutionary Cuba to AIDS era Los Angeles in the 80s. Everything you ever wanted to know about the great TRANSformation (communist to capitalist) is revealed at last in the glossy pages of this groundbreaking book. Here's the basic info: .Sexile book signing with snacks, tunes and soft drinkables. .Thursday, August 19 from 7-9pm .El Ambiente has kindly offered to host the event in their lovely space. They are located at 1841 Market Street, 3rd Floor (cross street is Guerrero) .$5-$10 sliding scale Admission gets you a free copy of the graphic novel. .No one turned away for lack o' cash. .Jaime Cortez and Adela Vazquez will be there to sign your book if you'd like that. Please forward this message to any interested folks. Thanks y'all, Jaime -\ ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" \ --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as)\ \ "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom\ of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam"\ --HellRazah\ \ "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long"\ --Mutabartuka\ \ "Everyday is Ashura and every land is Kerbala"\ -Imam Ja'far Sadiq\ \ http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html\ \ http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html\ \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date\ \ http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/\ \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/\ \ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2\ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Correction :: Furniture Press Reading August 29th Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Sorry, everyone. I re-edited Deborah Poe's bio after neglecting the differences between MA and MFA. Christophe Casamassima The Portable Reading Series August 29th 2004 @ 5PM hosted by furniture_press ‡ presents ‡ Edmund Berrigan is the author of Disarming Matter (The Owl Press 1999), two Idiom chapbooks, Counting the Hats and Ducks, A Serious Earth (with drawings by William Yackulic), and Your Cheatin’ Heart (Furniture Press 2004). His poems have been published in Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics, Arshile, Mirage #4/Period[ical], Talisman, and The World. Amy King received her MFA from Brooklyn College in 2000 and a MacArthur Scholarship for Poetry in 1999. She is the author of a Pavement Saw Press chapbook, The People Instruments, and her poems have appeared in numerous print and on-line journals, including Aufgabe, Combo, Shampoo, Skanky Possum, and Tarpaulin Sky. Amy co-edits Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics with Christophe Casamassima. Her pamphlet in the Serial Pamphleteer Editions is forthcoming from Furniture Press. Deborah Poe has lived in Paris, Austin, Taos, Houston, various places in and around Seattle, and now resides in New York state. She was last seen in Washington with an Atlas mover and a diploma that identifies her as a Master of Arts recipient. She's in New York to begin her PhD. She is working on completing her first collection of poems to submit by September. Poems and reviews have, or are forthcoming, in Solo Magazine, Jeopardy, Bellingham Zen, Poetry Midwest, and Snow Monkey. Deborah's chapbook ,,clitoris,, ,,vulva,, ,,penis,, was published in April 2004 by Furniture Press. Minas Gallery (at Hampden) 815 W. 36th Street Baltimore, MD 21211 …will be followed by a walk to Fraser’s on the Avenue for a few rounds of draught & conversation. furniture_press@graffiti.net - or - 410.718.6574 -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derekrogerson Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: FW: Protesting In Verse, Not Shouts (New York Times) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About 30 poets have chosen to read their poetry during the Republican National Convention in New York as a protest against the Bush administration. http://nytimes.com/2004/08/01/nyregion/thecity/01colm.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derekrogerson Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: FW: Sensing Political Crime Drives Him to Rhyme (New York Times) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calvin Trillin's "Obliviously On He Sails: The Bush Administration in Rhyme" is a rarity among poetry collections: a best-seller (debut at No. 7 on the New York Times nonfiction best-seller list) ... His salary is $100 a poem, a rate that has not changed since he began in 1990... http://nytimes.com/2004/07/31/books/31TRIL.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:39:38 -0400 Reply-To: ahbramhall@comcast.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen H Bramhall Subject: Re: FW: Sensing Political Crime Drives Him to Rhyme (New York Times) In-Reply-To: <000101c47778$a29ff7b0$83e33c45@satellite> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit derekrogerson wrote: >Calvin Trillin's "Obliviously On He Sails: The Bush Administration in >Rhyme" is a rarity among poetry collections: a best-seller (debut >at No. 7 on the New York Times nonfiction best-seller list) ... His >salary is $100 a poem, a rate that has not changed since he began in >1990... > >http://nytimes.com/2004/07/31/books/31TRIL.html > > > > > > calvin's salary sends goosebumps into the empyrean. calvin should be a swing state. he's that light.